Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this special solo episode, I announce my decision to take a sabbatical from Grieving Voices and reflect on the nature of change, the power of asking “why,” and how letting go can create space for new growth. I share my personal journey of questioning the routines and commitments that no longer serve me and the surprising sense of relief and excitement that came with making this decision.
Key Points
- Change is inevitable and often reveals our true nature and patterns
- The connection between grief and the disruption of familiar patterns
- How asking “why” questions can help us identify people-pleasing behaviors
- The importance of evaluating where we put our energy and time
- Why I’m taking a sabbatical from the podcast after 5 years
- Finding relief and expansion in letting go of self-imposed expectations
- All episodes will remain available as a resource for the grieving community
A heartfelt thank you to all the listeners, guests, and supporters who have been part of the Grieving Voices journey over the past 5 years. Your participation has helped change the narrative around grief, making it something we can discuss openly and honestly.
As I embrace this change, I invite you to consider what changes you might resist in your life. What might be possible if you leaned into that change instead? What “why” questions might help you uncover your own path forward?
RESOURCES:
Embracing Change: A Necessary Part of Growth
Change is one of life’s few certainties, yet it often brings discomfort, uncertainty, and even grief. Whether we choose it ourselves or it arrives unexpectedly, change challenges us in ways that shape who we are. It forces us to confront what no longer serves us, re-evaluate our priorities, and step into the unknown.
For years, Grieving Voices has been a space for open, heartfelt conversations about loss, healing, and personal growth. Every episode has carried the mission of normalizing discussions around grief, helping others navigate their emotions, and creating a supportive community. But just as grief teaches us that life moves forward, so too must this journey evolve. It is with deep reflection and intention that the podcast is taking an open-ended sabbatical—an opportunity to pause, reset, and make space for new possibilities.
This decision did not come lightly. Stepping away from something familiar, especially something built with passion and purpose, can stir up conflicting emotions. There may be grief in letting go of expectations or routines, but there is also freedom in allowing change to unfold naturally. Sometimes, asking the right questions—Why am I holding onto this? What is truly aligned with my heart?—leads to answers that bring clarity and peace.
But make no mistake—this is not the end. The conversations around grief and healing will continue in new and exciting ways. The past five years of episodes remain a resource for those who need support, and the space being created now will allow for fresh inspiration, deeper connections, and innovative ways to serve the grieving community. This is a time of transformation, and what comes next may be even more powerful than what has been before.
As this chapter pauses, consider what changes you may be resisting in your own life. What possibilities could open up if fear was replaced with curiosity? What new beginnings are waiting just beyond the uncertainty? Growth is never easy, but it is always worth it. And when the time is right, this journey will continue—stronger, brighter, and more meaningful than ever before.
Stay connected, stay open, and trust that the best is yet to come. 💛✨
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello, beautiful souls, and welcome to grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria Volk, and today’s episode is going to be a little different. It’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded since the end of December before the New Year. And I’ve been thinking a lot about change lately and how it shapes us, how it challenges us, and ultimately how it helps us grow. And as the staying goes, the only certainties in life are death, taxes, and I would argue to add change. Change is inevitable, and sometimes we initiated ourselves and sometimes it’s thrust upon us by others. In either way, it often feels uncomfortable, even unnerving. It’s also fascinating how change brings out the true colors in in other people, including in ourselves. When change is on the horizon, we often revert to what we know and what we’ve been taught and how to deal with uncertainty. Grief is essentially a change in or an end of a familiar pattern of behavior. So imagine if you and a friend went to lunch every Friday and spoke or spoke on the phone every Sunday, and then suddenly that pattern stopped. Those days would feel different, wouldn’t they? We take these patterns for granted until they change. When someone else’s changes impact us, we have decisions to make. We might feel anger or sadness, but allowing ourselves to be swept away by those emotions isn’t where we want to end up. And sometimes, change becomes the byproduct of asking ourselves or others better questions. It’s I’ve always been that why kid, you know, the kid that always drives everyone nuts asking why, why, why? And if you’re going to tell me what to do, then you best tell me why I’m doing it too. I need reasoning behind my actions or behind actions someone else tells me to take and that questioning nature has served me well when it’s directed outward. It’s also obviously backfired because I can be viewed as sometimes a negative Nancy or a naysayer or a questioner. Right? Like just like someone questioning authority. But lately, I’ve been turning those those y questions inward. Not lately, I guess throughout my life obviously because it can be a detriment to me too. But the y questions I’ve been asking myself are Why do I continue certain weekly routines? Why do I put energy into things that don’t light me up? Why am I still doing things that exhaust me? I have the gate of doubt in human design in my human design, which is gate six three, I am the natural skeptic. When I recommend something you can count on the fact that I vetted it thoroughly, but I’ve learned that when I turn all those questions toward myself, as self doubt, like questioning myself, that’s when I’m self sabotaging. So with all that context, I wanna share something important with you today. And this may cause some grief for some of you. And I had my own period of grief coming to this decision. This will be my final episode for a to be determined, amount of time. I am taking a sabbatical from grieving voices. I haven’t decided if this pause will last a few months or maybe weeks or be permanent. I am leaving that open because I want to honor whatever emerges during this time away. And I want to be clear that all episodes will remain available. Our work together over these past five years isn’t disappearing. It will continue to be a resource for those navigating grief just as as it has always been. When I asked myself why I’ve continued producing the podcast week after week, many of my answers stem from people pleasing tendencies, especially as of late, So I’ve been telling myself I had to reach the five year mark in two hundred and fifty episodes. But when I asked myself, why? Why does that matter? Who does that matter too? I couldn’t come up with a reason that truly resonated with me. Each episode requires about five hours of energy between recording and working with my virtual assistant not to mention the financial investment. That’s energy not going toward people who matter most in my life. The creative projects brewing within me or simply having the space to just be. For the past five years, I’ve poured my heart and soul into changing the narrative around grief working toward a world where we can talk about grief like we talk about the weather. I’m profoundly grateful to everyone who has joined me on that mission. Guest who have shared their stories, listeners who have opened their hearts in the community we’ve built together. When I finally told a friend, my decision to pause the podcast and I set it out loud, It was as if this wave of relief washed over me. I felt this pressure release and I experienced expansion and excitement in that moment. I am excited about what this change could mean. The sabbatical is an opportunity to give myself the energetic time and space to be in creative flow with whatever comes up. I might even start blogging again. I might develop new ways to serve the the grieving community, or I could rest and replenish my creative well. The beauty is in the not knowing. Imagine how different our world would be if the seasons never changed. Change is necessary for our growth and our evolution, and it helps us discover what we’re capable of even when it feels uncomfortable or painful. I want to express my deepest gratitude to each of you who has listened, shared, commented on, and supported this podcast. Together, we’ve created something meaningful that has touched lives and opened hearts. That doesn’t end with the sabbatical. It simply retransforms. And if you’d like to stay connected during this transition, you can find me through my newsletter or on social media. And I’ll be sharing updates there as as they emerge. And you can check out the show notes for links to connect in that way. And as we part ways for now, I invite you to consider the changes you might be resisting in your own life. What might be possible if you leaned into that change instead? What? Why questions might help you to uncover your own path forward? Thank you for being on this journey with me until our paths cross again, whether he or elsewhere. Remember that your grieving voice matters, your grief matters, And change while challenging can lead to beautiful new beginnings. With deep gratitude and so much love, this is grieving voices signing off for now. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours, thank you for listening. If you like this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a hurt with years. And if you’re hurting, know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s guest is Michelle Vignault, who opens her heart about the unimaginable journey of losing both her brother to suicide and her husband within just six months. Michelle shares how she was suddenly thrust into solo parenting two daughters, ages 2 and 4 while navigating her own overwhelming grief.
With raw honesty, Michelle reveals how writing became her lifeline—beginning as simple notes and evolving into heartfelt letters to her best friend before ultimately becoming her book, “Hold Back the Rain,” titled after a meaningful Duran Duran song that resonated with her struggle to withstand life’s torrential challenges.
Despite eight years passing since these profound losses, Michelle vulnerably shares her recent unexpected grief relapse, reminding us that healing isn’t linear, and even when we feel strong, grief can suddenly knock us off our feet.
Our conversation tenderly explores how Michelle has broken generational patterns by creating space for open communication with her daughters. She uses honest, distraction-free moments to help them process their feelings while allowing herself to express her own sadness and anger authentically and openly.
The poignant image on her book cover—capturing Michelle with her daughters as they release her husband’s ashes—symbolizes their transformed family and the quiet strength they’ve discovered together. It offers listeners a touching testament to how families can find their way forward through devastating loss with love, honesty, and resilience.
Michelle’s story reminds us that while we cannot hold back the rain of grief, we can learn to dance in it, finding moments of connection and growth even in our darkest hours. Her journey inspires us to embrace vulnerability as strength and to recognize that healing happens in community—whether through writing, honest conversations, or the simple act of showing up for ourselves and our loved ones day after day.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
Hold Back the Rain: A Journey Through Grief, Strength, and Healing
Grief is a storm that often arrives unannounced, reshaping our lives in ways we never expected. For Michelle Vignault, the storm came in the form of two devastating losses—her brother and her husband—within six months of each other. On a recent episode of Grieving Voices, Michelle shared her powerful story of navigating grief, the unexpected triggers that surfaced years later, and the lifelines that helped her through.
The Weight of Loss
Michelle’s journey with grief began long before she lost her brother. She grew up witnessing his struggles with depression, an ever-present shadow in their family’s life. When he passed away in 2016, the pain was immense—but nothing could have prepared her for what came next. Just six months later, her husband passed away, leaving her to navigate a new reality as a widow and a single mother to their two daughters.
For years, Michelle kept moving forward, filling her days with responsibilities and pouring her energy into being a mother, daughter, and friend. But grief doesn’t disappear just because life keeps going. It lingers, waiting for quiet moments to resurface. For Michelle, the realization hit her unexpectedly in December of last year when the weight of everything she had been carrying finally caught up to her. “I completely crashed,” she shared. “Grief is still here. You still miss these people. You’re daily affected by them not being here with you.”
Unexpected Triggers & The Airport Moment
Grief has a way of creeping up in the most unexpected places. For Michelle, airports became a painful reminder of what she and her daughters had lost. Watching happy families, fathers tending to their children, and witnessing the small, everyday moments she once had with her husband became a silent trigger. It was a reminder that grief isn’t just about the past—it’s about the present and the future that will never be the same.
Finding Healing Through Writing
Michelle discovered an outlet for her grief in an unexpected way: writing. What started as letters to a dear friend slowly turned into something much more profound. Journaling became a form of therapy—a way to connect her head to her heart and process the emotions that felt too heavy to carry alone. Over time, those letters and journal entries transformed into her book, Hold Back the Rain.
The title, inspired by a song from her favorite band, Duran Duran, became a metaphor for her journey. Rain is often associated with grief—something inevitable, something we can’t stop. But as Michelle and host Victoria Volk discussed, rain can also be cleansing. It can signify renewal, growth, and the ability to weather the storm.
The Power of Support & Self-Compassion
One of the most profound messages from Michelle’s story is the importance of support. Whether it’s the presence of a friend, a community that understands, or even the simple act of writing down your emotions—grief isn’t meant to be carried alone. Michelle also learned a hard but necessary lesson: she didn’t have to be “Supermom” all the time. She didn’t have to have it all together. She was allowed to grieve, to feel overwhelmed, and to take time to heal.
A Message to Those Grieving
If you are in the midst of grief, Michelle’s story is a reminder that healing isn’t about forgetting—it’s about learning to live with loss in a way that honors both your past and your future. It’s about finding your own umbrella in the storm and allowing yourself to take shelter when you need to.
You are not alone in your grief. You are not too much. And healing happens in its own time.
To hear Michelle’s full story, listen to the episode of Grieving Voices here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/admin/1081904/episodes/16743015-michelle-vignault-my-quest-to-create-a-new-normal-after-sibling-and-spouse-loss
Has grief ever caught you off guard? What has helped you find healing? Share your thoughts in the comments.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello, and welcome to Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Michelle Vignault. And with honesty and confidence, in touch of Duran Duran, Michelle shares her journey of ups and downs through a complicated life and how a special friendship helped her through the darkness to find a second chance at happiness. With the support of a best friend, Ignol discovers the tools she needs to overcome one obstacle after another until she eventually regains control of her family. Hold back the reign brings to light the difficult realities of life, but ultimately is the story of how inner strength and perseverance are the keys to making it through.
Thank you so much for being my guest today, Michelle, and I had to look up this Duran Duran reference, which I’m familiar with Duran Duran. I think everybody listening if you grew up in the eighties particularly, you know the song Hungry like a wolf, like who doesn’t know Hungry like a wolf. And if you don’t, you’ve been living under a rock. Even my youngest like, she’s gonna be sixteen years soon, knows that song. Like, she I’ve made sure to expose her to all types of genres, not a cash, like, so many old stuff. Yeah. But I did not know the song, hold back the writing, which is the title of your book. And so I’m interested to learn more of that connection that you felt, feel with Duran Duran and music, and and how that plays into the title. But I just let’s start at what brings you to greet you voices and and how the book came to be.
Michelle Vignault: Thank you. Well, thank you, Victoria. Thank you for having me and having your listeners take time to listen to my story and our conversation. I wanna first commend you. You’re raising a great daughter if she already knows about Duran Duran and Hungry like the Wolf. So thank you for for educating her. I’ve had a long love for the music, the band, the style, and over decades, their music has followed me. And I’ve, you know, through difficult times would rely on music to keep me going. And so after tackling, I think, tackling a lot of life changes I decided to write my story and it was for me an easy inclusion of Duran Duran, the references sometimes in the book and hold back the rain. It’s It’s an uncommon song of theirs and it has some beautiful sweet lyrics to it. So it was a good it wasn’t the original title to be honest with you for my book, but In the end, it was it was the best choice.
Victoria Volk: What does that title mean to you? Hold back the rain.
Michelle Vignault: You know, I think I’ve been given some cards, some life cards that have been far difficult to live with. And I feel like things come at you, work comes at me, life comes at me, comes out to all of us, and you wanna push back, you wanna be able to handle it all, but sometimes I can’t. I don’t. And it’s a little bit ironic. Hold back the rain. Who’s going to stop rain? Who’s going to stop life changes? So it’s it’s meaningful for me for me.
Victoria Volk: A picture that comes to my mind is, you know, grief can be so isolating and that I think there’s a lot of pictures depicting grief with rain falling. Right? And someone just kinda crouch down and you feel like you’re under this cloud of sadness and sorrow and like, you’re under the rain clouds. Right? And
Michelle Vignault: Yeah. Yes, that cloud of grief or depression for some or just that weight. Right? Mhmm. The overwhelming feeling and the simplicity of the rain being also cleansing and refreshing and sometimes a new start.
Right?
Victoria Volk: But I picture someone just coming in because it can be so isolating and you feel like you’re alone in it. And then sometimes someone comes along with an umbrella. Or you decide you figure out that, oh, I guess I can get my own umbrella. And empower myself and cover myself from this pouring rain. Right?
Like, just I don’t know. That’s the picture that comes to my mind. It’s not even it’s not a trying to stop or push back but it’s trying to shelter in place and get some solace and protection within yourself and with community and with support. And so let take us back in time to when your storm started.
Michelle Vignault: Yes. Thank you. My storm My storm happened a few years ago. Well, I take that back already. You know, my depression is something that has it’s a big topic but it’s been a part of my family history for a lot of years. I grew up with a brother nine years older named Mark. And knew very young, at a very young age of my own, I realized that Mark had depression. And so with a life journey with with being his younger sister and seeing him go through ups and downs for decades. And so at one point, it was just really too much for him. And so we always had an inkling that he might not sure how detailed to get, but you know, he had so many challenges. We just kind of had this idea that at some point Mark might not be able to handle life like the rest of us. And and we can talk more about him, but he passed away in fall of twenty sixteen, and he took his life. And so my grief journey first time ever in my early forties lost someone dear to me. And even though I had a life of preparation, it still was real. Right? So I lost my brother. And had a hard time managing my grief. I married at the time two young daughters and my husband was at the same time going through his own challenges. And he passed away six months after my brother. So in that short time to lose two of your most favorite people was a lot. And so that’s about when my journey began eight years ago. Eight years ago. I became a widow, March twenty seven. And in eight years, sometimes I think Victoria, I have this. I feel like I’m super mom most of the days.
I work hard at my job. I know I’m a good daughter. I know I’m a good friend, but you know at the same time it catches up with you and it caught up with me completely off guard last year. And so last year, I was going, going, going, fast forward to November. Started feeling a little funny about things just overwhelmed and stressed more than normal and then in December, just this past December last month, I completely crashed. And not talking car accident. I’m talking that complete overwhelm and just a big kind of like a slap in the face of Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. Reef is still here. You still miss these people. You’re you’re daily affected by them not being here with me with us. And oh, it it knocked me on my feet. I probably was in bed as much as possible, slept as much as possible, didn’t see it for weeks and then woke up one day at the end of the month and realized, oh, you’re you’re not superwoman. You cannot do it all. You you do have the weight of the grief in it. That was hard. That was a that was a hard lesson last month.
Victoria Volk: Can you pinpoint to anything that provoked them?
Michelle Vignault: You know, I travel for work and airports for some reason. Are can be triggering for me. And the third time I had a it’s a third time this has happened. I had a work trip came back from it. And I think the thing about airports is that I often see these families going on vacation or, you know, people are at their in their best form, their cited. They’re happy typically. And these families with the daughters, and even though my daughters are older, twelve and ten, But to see these dads with the little kids and helping with the diapers and doing all the dad things, it airports they remind me of what I didn’t have for my daughters. And it’s yeah. Yeah. I don’t Yeah. It’s just a strange It was a catalyst for kind of me realizing, it’s eight years. You’re doing really good, Michelle. But you’re still you know, we go to the restaurant, we ask for a table for three. Oh, would there be a husband? Would there be a forthcoming? No. Just the three of us. You know, there’s so many encounters that can happen. And it kind of built up. It really did build up.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like you’ve processed a lot of your grief? And if you have, if you feel you have what you mentioned a friend, but how how was your healing process been the past eight years?
Michelle Vignault: Yes. Thank you. You know, at the beginning, when I lost my brother and my husband, I I’m a notetaker. I should say that. I have pages here of notes as we’ve been talking and talked earlier. And even then I was making lists. My husband was in the hospital. I feel that the process of writing and scribbling, taking notes, making lists, and very much that kind of person. And at the beginning, when I lost my brother and lost my husband, I was all about less, you know, what was happening to my husband, Tracy, in the hospital. And who do I need to contact? And who do I need to do this and that? And so I bring this up because those lists turned into letters at the time to my best friend in Austin, Texas. And I was writing letters to Suzanne. And I love letters and mail and little things like that, and it makes me happy to send people cards and things like that. So at first, I was writing some letters. One of the letters I started writing more at night just for myself to get ideas out and get concepts out and release. And then after about a year, I realized that I was processing my grief at that time through writing. And it was just writing for myself at that point. I don’t know that I’ll ever be over the loss of my brother and husband and the loss of so many layers to the onion of feelings, but coping and working through it and getting through it and looking to light Writing. Writing was a surprising more than a safety net.
Writing became more of a critical mission. I had to express myself. And then in time, it became a book. And I went down that process and and in the end to have have my book to show.
Victoria Volk: Well, what writing does is it helps us connect our head to our heart. It’s different when you’re typing, you know, on a laptop or something, but versus ink to paper. It’s the ink to paper. It’s the active process of your thoughts coming through your fingertips and I think onto paper is the process of connecting to your heart and that’s why I think writing is so powerful. It was it’s journaling has been my thing since I was young. Writing poetry. I was writing poetry when I was an elementary, you know, not very good poetry, but needless to say, I was writing as well. I’ve I’ve published a book too actually in twenty seventeen, but I’m curious because the the cover of your book
Michelle Vignault: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s neither your brother nor your spouse and yet that’s the pain I I believe you’re writing about, but I, of course, know there’s more to more to a cover of a book that meets the eye, and there’s more engraver than meets the eye. And our grief is usually cumulative and it’s cumulatively negative. And so I imagine that you had plenty of grief before your brother even passed having Mhmm. Had that happen in your forties. You know, we don’t get to our forties unscathed and we definitely don’t get beyond our forties unscathed. So what were your grief experiences as a child, if you’re open to sharing any of those. And Mhmm. What did you learn about grief? What were you taught about grief? Is it something that was talked about growing up?
Michelle Vignault: Oh, Victoria, you’re so good.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment.
Michelle Vignault: Yes. Yes. I have some thought collisions going on in upstairs. You know, as a child, my experience with Greek was very limited. You know, I I’m a child of the seventies, and my parents did not talk about feelings. You know, we we sat down to eat dinner, we ate it. We had a job to do, we did it, we didn’t talk back. You know, it’s a very different time than today in twenty twenty five. But when I grandparents passed away on my mom’s side. I was maybe under nine, you know, maybe somewhere between six and nine. And mom was sad. We nothing was said too much after we had the news, and that was it. And I never felt comfortable asking questions. I never felt comfortable bringing it up. And with many things in our family, we didn’t talk about it. We didn’t talk about things and especially our feelings. So
Victoria Volk: Were you exposed to your grandparents?
Michelle Vignault: We were a little distant of geographically on the grandparents. So I didn’t have a big closeness to them. You know, I had a heart broken, a timer too, and lost friends along the way due to geographic or life changes. But a true death of someone flows was probably one of my best friends, her brother died of suicide. Back in the nineties. And seeing how her and her family worked through their grief was probably one of the bigger lessons I’ve had in seeing people express, talk about it, and kind of work through that brief. What is strangely ironic about life is that it’s so unpredictable? Meaning when my friend’s brother took his life, my parents went to that son’s funeral on my behalf. Twenty five something years later, that same family came to my brother’s funeral to support my parents. And it’s just so fascinating to see how, you know, the loss of a child is just so great.
And to see my parents and their parents, it it’s just a fascinating thing. Just the pain. And so fast forward to the cover of my book, which is a picture of myself with my two daughters. As you said, not my brother, not my exes, not my boy husband, it’s a picture of my daughters and I that captures us in such a way we took the photograph when we went to release my husband’s ashes, a friend took that photograph of us. And I feel like it’s so striking because in the end, who’s still here?
Are the three of us? And that image that is on the cover, we had no idea what we were getting ourselves into. I had no idea that I was in that moment going to have such a great responsibility. I already knew I was a parent and I had a responsibility, but I had a buddy to do parenting with. Right? And in that moment taking that photograph, it was kind of one of those life aha moments of this is our family. It’s the three of us. The dad’s not here. He’s not coming back. And there was a very again aha an aha moment. But there’s a strength there. There’s fear in the eyes. But there’s a strength there of I have the opportunity to improve communication in my family history, to teach the girls skills, They were two and four when their dad passed. But I had the opportunity to give them a family that communicates. And so I put us on the cover because together, we’re stronger. And in some ways, we can’t hold back that rain. We can’t push through.
Victoria Volk: How have you communicated with your daughters about grief? What have you found helpful? I’m sure you’ve done research along the way and how to support them and would have you found helpful. Then all kids are different. Right? To I mean, I lost my dad when I was eight, but nobody knew what to do. Mhmm. It was there was no communication whatsoever. And so I’m just curious what you learned and what was helpful for you and and helping supporting your daughters. Mhmm.
Michelle Vignault: A couple of things that come to mind are simplicity. And don’t elaborate, but simplicity and trying different things. So in regards to simplicity, because they were so little at the beginning, that I thought, okay, I don’t want them to rely on hugging a stuffy. I don’t want them to rely on seeing a TV in the background and that’s their memory of. I I wanted simplicity. So upstairs are our bedrooms and there’s a landing and it’s very it’s just a hallway. So we typically go to that landing to have a serious conversation of sorts. Right? So that way, there’s no distractions, and I keep it simple. So I don’t I wouldn’t typically speak with them for more than five or six minutes. And in those moments, it’s being honest. And me saying, giving them the information, for example, when their dad passed, you know, remaining honest and also telling them I’m really sad. And if I feel like crying when I’m talking with them in those moments and I cry, I want them to sometimes see that mom does have those emotions, does get sad, does get mad, mad that your dad is not here to see you dance ballet at your recital. And I’m sad he’s not here to go on the airplane with us to go on vacation. You know? So I feel like me expressing different emotions over time gives them and has taught them that when my now twelve year old has a problem with a fellow student She is not cautious about coming to talk to me about it. She trusts that I’m gonna listen and see if there’s a way to course correct. And then trying things, honestly, Victoria, like years ago, we did this family group therapy, where the adults would go to one side and talk about things, and then the kids would have art therapy and talk about things. Well, years later, my daughter, my oldest daughter, Charlotte, she says, I hate it going to do that. You know? Some things work and some things don’t. But, you know, at the time, I felt like it made sense to be around a group of kids that all had lost someone dear to them and talk through it. And even though she may have rolled their eyes at different points in time. I’m only trusting that trying these different trying different tools and trying different things that it will help propel them for their womanhood. You know, to be able to, like you mentioned earlier, have your heart work more cohesively with your mind.
Right?
Victoria Volk: Would you say that would you describe Charlotte as highly sensitive, empathic?
Michelle Vignault: Yeah. That
Victoria Volk: is why that didn’t work for her.
Michelle Vignault: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: It was too sad. It was too heavy. It’s too much of other people’s stuff. She hasn’t learned how to create this energetic bubble for herself that what’s theirs is theirs and what’s hers is hers.
Michelle Vignault: I think
Victoria Volk: she can learn as an highly sensitive child and pathogen child, which there’s a difference. Not all highly sensitive people are in passive, but all empaths are highly sensitive. So I’m an empath who’s highly sensitive. When I started to learn about energy work and energy itself and grief and how this all tied together and looking back at my childhood, it made total sense. I required a lot of sleep.
I slept a lot. The world was just too much and too heavy. My environment was too much and too heavy. It was chaotic. It was a lot of anger. It was fighting. It was it was just too heavy for me. It weighed literally weighed me down. So the best gift that you can give her is for her to learn what’s her’s what isn’t hers, to tuning into her body, connecting with her body. Mhmm. Being in her body. That’s where, like, dance, yoga. Expressive using her like, just being in her body can create a sense of safety within herself.
Michelle Vignault: That’s so fantastic that you share that because Charlotte is such a Active participant with a bubble, volleyball soccer. She loves k pop dancing. You’re with a group but you’re honing in on yourself
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Michelle Vignault: In big ways.
Victoria Volk: When it comes to emotions, that can be a little harder. Yeah. Because as an empath, you want it you’re you can put yourself in the shoes of other people. You’re sensitive to other people’s emotions. You want to help.
You want to you want your environment to be higher vibe because it helps you to feel better. Right? So empathize highly sensitive people can tend to become the caretakers, emotional caretakers of their environment, of those people around them, often at their own expense.
Michelle Vignault: And then zaps and not share of it. Yeah. Interesting.
Victoria Volk: Just I’m just throwing that out there just based on what you described. Absolutely. But I can relate to that, you know, being that as a kid and not understanding it. No one having this understanding around me. Right? Like, there was my mom wasn’t into personal development or anything like that. It was I pretty much raised myself. Emotionally raised myself. So but if you can help her recognize sensations or feelings in her body, Like, what’s a yes and what’s a no and sensing the emotions of others? Well, what comes up for you when you’re when you’re sitting with someone who said? Do you recognize that that’s not yours that you’re just maybe feeling what they’re feeling? Mhmm.
Michelle Vignault: That’s so much to learn. And a lot of it is hands on learning. Right? It’s not it’s it’s not what I was taught. I was
Victoria Volk: oh, we’re not.
Michelle Vignault: No. And on top of being raised in a family unit that didn’t communicate. Mhmm. On top of that, my parents had very loud relationship. And it was volatile at times. And so I grew up knowing. Stay in my bubble. Look a certain way. Don’t be too loud. Don’t be too quiet. So I feel like I’m now as an only parent. I’m careful not to say single parent. That makes me very uncomfortable. I’m an only parent. But as an only parent, I’m also overcompensating so many days of trying to be the dad or the mom or the this and the that, and that’s exhausting and it’s impossible.
Victoria Volk: How do you support yourself? In your own energy.
Michelle Vignault: I’m learning, Victoria. I’m constantly learning. You know, in lately, I’m having to remind myself and literally remind myself, you’re doing a good job. You’re doing a good job. You’re doing enough. And lately, I’ve also been realizing that it’s very lonely because we go go go throughout the year work and family and this and that. And you know, it gets it gets very lonely. So I think I I certainly rely on my good friendships to help me. And Yeah. Yeah. Not sure if that answers your question.
Victoria Volk: Are your parents still living?
Michelle Vignault: They are still living. Mhmm. They divorced after forty five years to get there?
Victoria Volk: Wow.
Michelle Vignault: And I thought I thought at the time I thought why? Why at this point? You know? How old were they then? That was that was in o six that they divorced the next year over twenty.
They’re in their late eighties.
Victoria Volk: Wow.
Michelle Vignault: They’re still in great shape for for soon to be eighty eight and eighty six, I think.
Victoria Volk: Wow. They’re living on their own yet?
Michelle Vignault: Mom is in not a compound, but a a facility with, you know, she has her own apartment and,
Victoria Volk: you know, like assisted living type.
Michelle Vignault: Yeah. She has
Victoria Volk: people there to help out if she needs it, when she needs it, but has that independence.
Michelle Vignault: Yes. A hundred percent. She loves it. She loves it. And then dad is still in his house downstream.
Victoria Volk: That’s remarkable. Did he either remarry?
Michelle Vignault: He’s had a long standing girlfriend for a lot of years. So dad and Sandy have been together a long time and very happy, did not marry. They had done that, then they were done.
Victoria Volk: How did that? How did you work through that? Forty five years? Like, your parents like, forty five years. Like, how did you it’s so different. Like, I had a friend that Mhmm. Her parents divorced when we were, you know, thirteen. She was third like, that’s a really difficult age. And and then my mom had remarried after my dad past and they ended up getting divorced too, but that was a blessing in disguise. Mhmm. Blessings to me anyway. But how did forty five years? Like, what like, was it hard did you feel it was heartbreaking? Or It was so disappointing
Michelle Vignault: because for all that time, you know, my brothers are six and nine years older. And
Victoria Volk: so you were the youngest.
Michelle Vignault: I’m the youngest. The baby girl. So live through all the heartache, be yelling, the physical stuff. Like, live through stuff it down. I was married to my first husband at the time. And and they had a call on a Sunday afternoon, and it was a phone conversation, had me on speaker phone, just had a regular Sunday conversation, call plan, And they dropped the news that they’re getting into force, and I’m thinking, you couldn’t have done it sooner.
Victoria Volk: Wow.
Michelle Vignault: And to be honest with you, Victoria, they’re they’re happier apart and together. I can say that now. But right at the time, it was it was very disappointing. And I think the hardest thing is that Even adults can’t be adults. They can’t even adult themselves sometimes, meaning now I’m an only parent and I know they’re older, but they’ve not really, you know, the girls don’t go there for sleepovers.
Right. You know, they’re not meeting me at the bus stop to get the girls. They’re you know, it’s it’s still a disjointed relationship. Mhmm. There’s that separation in wall, not to get too close. You know, so I mentioned that because Yeah. It was it was disappointing. And and then after forty five years of spending time together, they were so done that when I did get remarried, they had to stay separate. When I have a birth of my first child and then the second child and then that this happens and that happens. It’s like, why do now I have the burden of keeping them separate? For the past twenty years, when they were inseparable, almost forty five. Mhmm. So it’s also a resentment of, really, now I have to deal with this slayer of the onion, on top of all the other things. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Something no one’s ever really I don’t think anyone’s ever mentioned in terms of divorce as adults, like when the parents divorce as adults. Like, I don’t think that’s something that’s really talked about as that you can feel relief, right, that they’re happy and that they’ve, you know, gone their separate ways because now you don’t have to hear that noise. And at the same time, well now then, how is this my problem now to accommodate? Great. Right. In the number of times, I’ve asked either of them.
Michelle Vignault: Can you just
Victoria Volk: move forward? Can you simply and they have?
Michelle Vignault: And they have, but they have that.
Victoria Volk: That’s the thing that goes back to your that goes back to your statement of, like, even adults don’t know how to adult. And b, it’s When it comes to I I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, that, like, when it comes to, like, child creepers, we’ll say divorce in particular and there’s children involved. It’s like or even a best spouse passes away. Right? When my dad passed away, my grandparents, I lost my entire dad’s side of the family, cousins, aunts, uncles, because the adults could not Mhmm. Adults. Could not have a child? Yeah. I was like, I then suffered that connection because the adults couldn’t adults. Right.
And so it’s like it’s no different. You can be a child and your parent can make decisions that affect you You can see
Michelle Vignault: your adult, the child,
Victoria Volk: and your parents, choices can still affect you. It’s like, do you not learn as adults? Like, your parents not learn, like, this is why it’s so important that we sweep our own doorstep. Like, and look at the past. What are the lessons?
How can I move forward? How can I make this better for other people involved? That’s awareness? That takes some self sacrifice. Right?
Michelle Vignault: Self reflection. Self reflection.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. Like, I’m getting a little worked up just because it’s, like, the patterns are keyed. That’s my point in saying this. Yes. That’s why it’s so important.
And that’s why what you’re doing in talking with your kids about grief, it stops with you. This is why it’s so this is why education on this podcast is so important to me that people get this message, sweep your doorstep. It will impact generations.
Michelle Vignault: And that gives me shivers right now because it’s so true. Don’t go to
Victoria Volk: change Yeah. You might not see it today. That’s your legacy.
Michelle Vignault: Right.
Victoria Volk: Wouldn’t that be your legacy of anything? People think, oh, I’m, you know, with your grief. Like, I have to write a book or I have to do this big grandiose thing. Clean up your energy, clean up your life, look at the past, learn from it, let it transform you, transmute it into into let the legacy be that you become a better version of yourself and for those people in your life. That give your legacy.
Michelle Vignault: And it’s it’s taken me now being a widow for eight years. It took me about six to feel proud and not embarrassed of my family because a younger Michelle would have judged that mom with the two daughters and no partner with her. My eighteen year old self would be very judgey. Now in my early fifties, much different story. Now I see a vision of, you know, me and my girls and I think I’m the one that’s doing it. And we’re gonna do this together. We’re going to depression for example. It doesn’t it didn’t just hit my brother Mark. It’s it’s in our family genes. So I can recognize I can sniff out almost somebody with depression a mile away because I know the signs and I know the attitudes. And so there’s a chance my daughters could have that. Challenge in their life. So I’m very observant to recognize and fight for them and make a better life for them. And for example, my youngest daughter, Justine, is now ten. She has spent the last eight years in speech therapy. And she was just this calendar month released from speech therapy for the first time. She’s set. But identification at two years old when that child did not want to walk or talk, we had to intervene. As an adult, you have the opportunity To make things better, I have the opportunity then to get her into early child care, get her to good doctors, work through the system. Eventually, I had a test done, a blood test done, and found out a diagnosis to her trisonomy.
Which is a whole other conversation, I’m sure. But here’s a challenge. I gotta fix it. I gotta find a way to pivot and take care of this because I don’t want my daughter one day to take her life because of depression. I don’t want my daughters one day to have an alcohol problem like their father. I want to ideally, I can’t I can’t keep them from harm. I recognize that. And there’s no crystal ball, but as an adult. Adult. So I’m learning what skills work for me to try to pass on to them.
And so many times when the girls say, can you help me with this? Can you do this for me? Can you There’s always an opportunity. Not every time. No one would be too much on someone. But so many times, there’s that opportunity to say, okay, this is our problem. This stinks. Great. What are we gonna do about this? And then we talk about it and we’d figure, okay. What are our options? Can we call the school and ask them a question? Can we call a dance class and see if this is right? You know, can we how do we pivot in teaching them the skills is so key? So, yes, I’m all about adulting.
Victoria Volk: Well, it’s not taught in school. Right? Like, how to how to navigate life is not taught in school. And so as the parents and as the caregivers and caretakers, like, it is up to us. To become the best versions of ourselves.
So we’re in a position where we can be that for our kids. Mhmm. And that’s like, as you were talking, like, you came to this podcast because of the death of your brother and your spouse. And yet, your parents divorced after forty five years. You had a divorce prior to your husband passing. Your spouse had been dealing struggling with alcohol. Like, your daughter has this diagnosis? Coincidentally at age two, like, did she have symptoms beforehand? Like, that you You know, the timing of it seems interesting to me is as when when this came out to be around her father passing. Because by age three, we’ve learned seventy five percent of how to respond to life.
By age three.
Michelle Vignault: Oh my gosh. You know, Justine, she’s such a good person and she very early on. I was on maternity leave and she wouldn’t quite look at me I had a I had a very I feel like it took a long time to get her to be in that moment of being her mom. With Charlotte, it was instant love. It was taking to the moon and back.
But with Justine, it was just a little different. I didn’t quite connect. I didn’t quite get her. And so fast forward our first one or two years, didn’t wanna talk, didn’t make a lot of noises, very quiet, didn’t wanna walk, did kind of a boot but scuffle kind of maneuver. And knew something was up. Knew something was a little different and had to figure out what maybe that was. And about the same time, we decided to move from Austin to Atlanta. So, Justine is six months old. We move across the country, and that’s really when things got interesting. But while my husband while Justine was we were realizing she needed early intervention is really when my husband started to go off the rails. So I was managing being back in Atlanta, being close to family. My husband is spiraling. I haven’t tapped my finger on that it’s alcoholism. But he’s different. And I have this beautiful two year old that doesn’t wanna walk and does not have much to say.
Victoria Volk: Let’s another child.
Michelle Vignault: And another child that is Ready for college, not for. You know, she’s just she’s witnessing
Victoria Volk: all this happening and and being she’s in it too. Right?
Michelle Vignault: She’s she hears mom and dad. Talking in ways that we’re never mom and dad didn’t argue. Now we’re arguing. You know, we’re in a different place. Her sisters you know, mom and dad are spending time on phone calls and doctor appointments for little sister, and so it affected everybody. And, yeah, and kind of fought and really fought for Justine. And many doctors at two one and two charter for autism. And having a couple of friends with autistic children I didn’t why I didn’t buy it. I didn’t agree with the doctors. So I kept finding other doctors.
And someone finally listened. And she needed a speech therapy. She needed physical therapy to teach her how to walk. And trisotomy, it turns out years later, I found out what her diagnosis was and very proud moment. To get that diagnosis for her, to treat her the right way, to give her the skills that she needed, not just a diagnosis on a form to change the trajectory of her life of wasted opportunity.
No. I argued with the doctors, I got sent out of offices. That’s fine. In the end, she got her diagnosis. And it takes a little bit longer for her brain to be able to do the things that aren’t so easy for so many of us. And so now at ten, she’s now becoming an actual ten year old. Like, all all cylinders are firing and whatever that saying is, but Yeah, adulting, going back to adulting for a moment and and recognizing how I want things to be as good as they can be for my kids. And I think every parent really wants that and it takes hard energy to push forward. And I think as an only parent, I just have that drive of Well, who else is gonna clean the bathrooms? Who else is going to pay the bills? Who else? No. No. Can
Victoria Volk: I just applaud you? For a moment. Takes courage to do what you’ve done. I’ll be proud of yourself, and I hope you take stock of that sometimes. And you know you’ve written a book While doing all of this Yes. We don’t celebrate ourselves enough. I’m guilty of it too, but we just don’t. We just don’t. So I’m just celebrating you. In this moment.
Michelle Vignault: I will accept that today. Thank you. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: So, I mean, you’ve shared a lot about what grief has taught you, not without me. Asking even the direct question. I feel like you’ve really articulated what has what you’ve gotten out of all that you’ve experienced because it’s not just the death of your brother and the death of your husband. It’s all that stuff in between that make us who we are. It’s not just the one big thing in this other thing.
It’s it’s cumulative. How would you have described the Michelle before? And I don’t even know which which before you wanna go with. Mhmm. The before your brother I think that’s a decision for you to make. Like, when you felt yourself really, I’ll say, cocoon and then come out a different way. The other side? How would you describe yourself before and after? And what where is that distinction for you? You think?
Michelle Vignault: Interesting question. Before and after, I feel like we live so many lives or we have the opportunity to live lives. And I’ve probably mostly of my life been a half full kind of a girl, glass half full. But that that shift, I feel like I didn’t come into my oh, if I’m being really honest, probably after I had both my girls, I feel like I grew up in the right ways. And I’m stumbling here a little bit.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Michelle Vignault: I think with Tracy, my husband’s death, it’s been such a lot of a few years day to day, hoping. But I feel like Yeah. I asked me your question one more time. I’m so sorry.
Victoria Volk: How would you describe the Michelle before?
Michelle Vignault: If you
Victoria Volk: ever experience, you feel transitioned you the most into you know, so let’s say, for example, maybe this will help. Like, we all have these, like, defining moments or these moments in life where that’s the day everything changed. That’s the day where I was, like, I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired. And whatever that was, who I was before and who I was after are not the same. Like, it was, like, exponential growth, exponential self awareness. You know, it takes action oftentimes. Right? There’s action in between there. And for me, it was grief recovery. Like, I did grief recovery, went through that, and that changed my life.
It changed my entire perspective of my past. Help me reframe my story, the story I was holding on to, stories that I weren’t even mine that I was holding on to. Does that help? How would you describe the Michelle before and the Michelle after?
Michelle Vignault: Thank you for that. You know, I think there was a defining moment on the floor of my kitchen. I had just lost my husband. He was in the hospital for forty five days. And one of those evenings, soon after, I had to make my kids dinner. And we had just moved into this house, I hadn’t cooked a lot, I hadn’t used the oven. And I sat here on the floor far too long trying to turn this machine on. And just with the girls having some movie blaring, I think it was finding nemo. And they were consumed. And I’m on the other side of the partition, on the floor, staring at the oven, balling. Balling. And I thought, okay. If I can turn this thing on, this is it. This is where the old Michelle of being selfish and going to concerts and doing what I want and having this lights that I chose and being Michelle, this is where I’m a grown up. He’s gone. I have to do this and I can do this. And I sort of just pulled myself up. Got the ebb and going, got dinner going, got them to bed, and moving forward, in time I embraced my family and what it looked like. With the three of us. Because in the long term, we were going to be a family far longer than that short blurb of time that we dated and had babies.
We had so much more to do. And in the picture on the cover of the book is so defining of that moment that we were newly by ourselves, the three of us. And that was maybe my defining pivot of a stronger Michelle. I’ve become a lot stronger, more confident, more flexible, and a lot more honest. And I hope those are all attributes that the girls are witnessing. In that one day, when they’re in their thirties and they’re comprehending more and more and doing more and that ideally they can look back and think mom did write by us. You know, she she taught us the best she could.
Victoria Volk: You forgot one attribute. Patients.
Michelle Vignault: Don’t we need so much patience? And maybe COVID taught us that, you know, COVID was an amazing equalizer in so many ways, you know, and that’s a whole other conversation, but patience. You have to have patience.
Victoria Volk: One thing we haven’t really talked about, I kind of touched on it earlier, but we didn’t really go there in the conversation. And I I feel it’s important from your perspective as an only parent. And the circumstances that brought you to only parenting, but self care. Mhmm. What does that look like for you?
Michelle Vignault: Self care. You know? For a long time, you know, when I was writing my book, eating well, I’ve always slept well. Can’t complain there. But while I was writing my book, I did teach myself sometimes by watching videos on YouTube, but also taught myself to sit in the quiet. Meaning, I’m not a big TV person. I might have my radio on, but I’m not a big TV person. I get the girls to bed at a certain hour and then I’d have a block. Of, you know, two to four hours of Michelle time. And that would be my self care opportunity. And sometimes I would do yoga and watch yoga videos or listen to brief talks. I wanted to hear who had it worse, who had it harder. You know, if it wasn’t real, I could not relate. And so, self care has taken different forms over the years. And more recently, it’s walking.
It’s always dancing. We always have dance, little dance parties in our house. And then even more recently, Victoria, I would say as recent as the past three months. I am having to remind myself to be Michelle. Not the widow, not the only parent, not the flexible person at work that, you know, helps people get things done. It’s me and Michelle. And self care is hard. It’s hard for me to be nice to myself. I don’t always eat great. I don’t walk every day. You know, it’s that is a that’s a hard it’s hard to take care of myself.
Victoria Volk: When do you feel the most like yourself? When do you feel the most like at home within yourself? What are you doing when you’re feeling the most like yourself?
Michelle Vignault: Probably when I’m being creative, you know. For a few years, it was the book. Other times, it’s collaging, maybe painting, maybe writing, but doing something creative and listening to music and yes. Having that that quiet time.
Victoria Volk: So are you doing more of that?
Michelle Vignault: I will start.
Victoria Volk: I think you found your solution for self care.
Michelle Vignault: Self care. It’s so hard. It’s so hard
Victoria Volk: for your self care. Right? Like, think people think, like, self care is, like, bubble bath, and pampering, and getting your nails done, and hair, and done, and, like, no, sometimes it can be. Just doing what brings you joy. Right.
That simplicity.
Michelle Vignault: Mhmm. Absolutely. Yes. I need to I’m that’s my goal this year. And it’s not to be corny.
Oh, it’s January and, you know, spring is around the corner and, you know, it’ll be here before we know it. It it’s just it’s a true need. For me to put on the oxygen mask. You know, when you’re on the airplane, what do they always say? Take care of yourself first and then the person next to you? And it’s hard to keep that oxygen tank on. And as recent as this morning, I logged in to work, I work remote, logged in, and I thought, no, I can’t juggle today. I don’t want to focus x amount of time on this and then have this great opportunity to talk with you. I want to be, I need boundaries, and I’m just now learning to say, no, I’m actually going to not work today. I’m not going to put my energy towards this. I’m going to focus on myself today. And focus on telling our story. And it took me a couple hours this morning to just decompress, you know, get the girls to school, do the thing, be myself and I’m really trying. I’m really going to keep trying. To sometimes say no, I have to just be Michelle.
Victoria Volk: Is a really good book that, you know, after we go after I went through brief recovery, I learned that I didn’t I didn’t know boundaries. I wouldn’t recognize I didn’t recognize other people’s boundaries, and we don’t. Like, if we don’t have boundaries ourselves, we don’t recognize other people’s boundaries. That’s where we get offended and feel like someone did something to us because that’s why we’re uncomfortable with other people’s boundaries. If that’s your indicator that you don’t have boundaries yourself as if you’re upset by someone else’s boundaries. There’s your sign, but it’s the book called the book is called boundaries. Doctor Townsend and there’s another doctor. So I’ll put the link in the show notes. But that covers all aspects of life, really. There’s a little bit of a Christian spin on it, but not heavily. Mhmm. But, yeah, it’s a really good book. I got one final question that I jotted down here. Can you speak to the difficulty or maybe not of friendships? First of all, friendships are tough as an adult, but as an only parent, as a widow. And then I’m also curious if if you’ve dated or tried dating and what that’s like.
Michelle Vignault: Oh, dating. Dating. Friendship ups and dating. So let’s talk about this. Friendship ups is one of the reasons that I began my book.
I started writing letters to Suzanne, and it was a way to you know, Suzanne, let me talk about her for a real quick moment, please. She’s a fiery little firecracker. She is in Austin, Texas. She has a great husband and family. And we worked together for close to twenty years. Two different companies but we always work together. So we were work spouses for forever until I moved back to Atlanta as an adult. And so when Tracy died and I was writing, I was writing to Suzanne because she was she knew everything about me. She knew my coffee order. She knew how much I slept. She knew what I did the night before. She knew it all. And so my friendship with Suzanne was mission critical. And she and Deb and other friendships just saved me. The past couple of years, I’ve been very close with some girlfriends named Sofia and Kelly, and I’ve known since Sofia since high school.
And the three of us joke that were like the golden girls already because, you know, we check-in. I check-in with them daily. They check-in with me. They they bug me if I’m eating okay. They you know, friendships have become so important and they’re so valuable. They’re they they keep me going. I need my friendships. I need my girl team. I have some guy friends. But funny, most women don’t want a widow chit chatting with their husband. So you know, don’t get quite invited to maybe all the parties or all the dinners or, you know, I’ve learned that over the years.
Victoria Volk: Do you know do you know any other widows?
Michelle Vignault: I do and not very close with them, very different experiences. I feel like I’ve moved forward with understanding my relationship with Tracy is over. He’s gone. But some widows that I know, the few widows I know, honestly, really still connected to those husbands. And almost still speak of them in the present.
And I’m just not that way, so it’s a little hard for me to connect
Victoria Volk: and maybe more connected to the word widow. Mhmm. Do they also have children?
Michelle Vignault: Yes. Older children? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Thinking it’s like, well, you know, I thought you could create Michelle’s widow club, you know. You could have your own club. Yeah.
Michelle Vignault: I believe it. I believe it. Yeah. So friendships are key. But when it comes to dating, couple funny stories. You know, it’s been eight years, and so I’ve had ebbs and flows of dating. At the beginning, it was you know, no interest, please. That was the last thing. But then during COVID, you know, a couple of years in, just thought it was, you know, worth trying to date. So I got on some of those apps and and it was just miserable. You know, it was like people like me, you know, in their mid forties and been married once or twice and had the kids and I thought, oh, god, you know, I don’t want other kids. I don’t want, you know, it just There’s so many thought collisions of dating in your forties and definitely had some fun and had some good first and last dates. Met in a wonderful Mandarin at the end of COVID. And we dated for a year very different experience, different feelings of feeling selfish or getting sinners and going on dates and leaving the girls and so much guilt. And then, you know, combated with the yin and the yang of but you have to be Michelle. You have to get out there. You need to do this. You need to do this. And I put all this pressure to be dating and and found a nice guy and we dated a year. And We had just had the holidays together and he caught COVID in about two weeks passed by and he calls me It’s like Michelle, you haven’t been sick with COVID, I haven’t heard from you when You know what?
I honestly forgot. I’m so busy with work and life and my daughters. That the moment we had a little bit of a break. And in that moment, I thought, oh my god. We need to break up. First of all. And second of all, I don’t need this. Right now in my life, my priority is getting the mask on my mouth and raising to good kids. And I’m good with that. It’s not a lazy thing. It’s not because, you know, I’ve lost myself. I just I feel cute. I feel good, but right now it’s not a priority. Now if we talk and my girls are out of the house down the road and, you know, I deserve another big love. I know I do, and that better happen for me in the future. Right? But for now, it is just not we’re such a good team, the three of us, that I feel like it needs to stay that way for them.
Victoria Volk: That’s a great answer. And I think, you know, if it’s if or when it’s meant to be Mhmm. It’ll bump into you when you least expect it. Right. That’s the best.
That’s when it’s unexpected, you know.
Michelle Vignault: One day. One day
Victoria Volk: starts the line. Mhmm. And I have no doubt the more you lean into being Michelle. That’s something that that will happen. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t feel you got to?
Michelle Vignault: One thing comes to mind in my book, I created a Venn diagram. And on one side, it’s your former life. And on one side, it’s your new reality. Whether you were divorced or you you lost a parent in your, you know, it’s your former life and then you have a new reality. I had a real conversation with my husband one day. It was a Saturday, and I had an intervention with him. And it was a big long day. Twelve hours, we had the intervention. And it was very spontaneous, but it worked out great. And he agreed to go in seek treatment for his alcoholism. And had one caveat to that. And it was the next day, it was Super Bowl Sunday. And he who didn’t wanna miss the Super Bowl Sunday. So I said, okay, he’ll be open, Monday at eight, we’re going. And we did. But things happened and he landed in the hospital. It’s a whole big story. But he had a fall in treatment on day one, and he landed in the hospital. And that was a new reality for me. And when he passed, it was a new reality. But that’s not where I’m at. That’s just things that are happening. But for me in the middle of the bend diagram is creating your new normal. And I think that has been a beneficial visual for me because each day we can have the opportunity to create a new normal. We lost love. We lost a person. But I just want people to know that you can move on and you can have great joy. So I really appreciate you having me today. Thank you, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: You’re welcome. But now I have a follow-up question. Oh, is that adds another layer to the experience and that and because you brought it up, I this is why I’m asking. So was it the fall? Did he hit his head?
Did he and that the fall took his life? Like, did he
Michelle Vignault: Well, what seems to have happened is that he was I learned self detoxing himself off of alcohol the last couple of weeks of his life. And so for anyone listening that’s not familiar with alcoholism as I was not, when you rip the band aid and take alcohol away from someone that’s used to having it in their body, Their heart is like their liver. It remembers all this alcohol. The liver remembers all of this. So when you strip the alcohol away and you stop drinking about a week or two, So when he went to treatment, he hadn’t been drinking.
His body was revolting. His eyes on the drive there were like yellow glowing. And I looked at him and I said, I remember, we didn’t even actually leave the driveway. We got in the car. And I said, Tracy, I’ve never seen your eyes so yellow.
You know, and I remember him looking in the visor and then we went to treatment. So what I think happened that day is his agitation, his lack of alcohol, his liver was already gone. So is I think accumulation of all this all this happening in his body? And I think he had a fall. And that’s what prompted them to take him to the hospital. I think he was agitated. I think there may have been a scuffle, but he landed in the hospital, but by then it wasn’t because he had a fight it wasn’t because of a I think it was really because his body was deteriorating. So he was there forty five days And after about two weeks, he, what I call, went underwater. He he he was gone. And so the last few weeks was you know, realizing what was happening and his body was starting to fail more and it was just going to get worse. And so yeah, I think he was in the hospital two and a half weeks or so when this internist, Stacey, came in the room to ask if she could talk to me. And So we went to this room, there was another doctor, a third party, and they were telling me all this information about Tracy. And I’m realizing, it’s like someone else, it was an out of body experience. I remember saying they’re thinking he’s gonna die. No.
He he just he’s going to get treatment. And this isn’t what’s gonna no. That’s not going to happen. They’re like, no. He cannot. His body will not survive this. His body will not. The liver was gone. So for someone that’s an alcoholic, they’re not a liver transplant candidate and his body wore out. He was forty five.
Victoria Volk: For me, it just is heartbreaking. Because he went to get help. Right?
Michelle Vignault: He went to get help. And he loved those two girls, like no one’s business. He would let them mark them up with all sorts of markers and paint on him and crawl all over him. I mean, he was such a good dad. Such a good dad.
Victoria Volk: Do the girls know that do do the girls know that that he was struggling and that he went to get help?
Michelle Vignault: No. No. Their their understanding of dad is that he he had a lot of grown up drinks. Now they know it as alcohol. They know it as a beer.
They can call it a wine, but at the time. So in growing up, I and I’ve never been a big drinker. So if I did have something over the years that the girls would see if I’d have a glass of wine, it wasn’t going to be the whole bottle. It’s just going to be that glass, and they would ask me from time to time. Mommy, is that a grown up drink? Mommy, are you allowed to have, you know, they were con they became conscious of it. And but even now, they Justine has so faint memories of him, and Charlotte has more, a lot of good memories, all good with him. And and, you know, it’s an ebb and flow of how much we talk about their dad? In the beginning, I was very conscious of. Dad would be so proud. Oh my gosh, you know. If your dad saw this, he would love this picture. You know? And in that kind of weaned over the years, and he comes up naturally now. But I do suspect that more questions will come. You know, when the book came out, Charlotte asked if she could read it. I said, you know? Not yet. It’s a grown up book. So down the road when you’re older? Yes. I’m sure there will be a time you will read it. And I had that in mind when I wrote. You know, I I wanted to be respectful of him in the book. But also from my honest point of view of what was happening. And so to go back maybe to the Venn diagram, and the middle is creating your new normal. And I think for myself and our family, time, it takes time to create your new normal. We have to give it time.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. But you’ve done a lot taken a lot of action in that time. It’s not just idly idly waiting for time to pass and time heals all wounds, which is a myth. Right? It’s the action that you’ve taken in that time.
Mhmm.
Michelle Vignault: The
Victoria Volk: choices, the decisions that you’ve made for yourself, for your daughters. It’s not just passively living life. It’s actively pursuing life in the quest of a new normal.
Michelle Vignault: In the quest of a new normal, that’s so true. Because for people like my brother Mark who lived his fifty two years, on this earth. With most of those years so painful with the voices in his head and the depression and seeing that, that so many people live that way, not out of choice. But I just I want to give the girls the most out of life that I can give them. And honestly, I want that for myself.
And, you know, for anyone listening, write I’m not saying write book. I’m not saying you’re going to write the next great poem, you know. Make a list. Make a grocery list. Make a list of things you want to do this weekend. Make a list of four things you wanted to get done this year. And if you can put it out there, I really do believe that it will you will receive. Like, for example, I wrote on a board over here, a couple of things that I wanted family goals. And one was take my kid to a particular concert. We got the tickets for that in June. We’re very excited. And we wanted to go to DC this year, and we’re gonna work towards that. And it’s you know, have goals. That’s something to look forward to.
Victoria Volk: Good advice. That’s healthcare too. Right? Something to look forward to.
Michelle Vignault: It is.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you if they wanna connect with you, find the book, all of those things?
Michelle Vignault: Oh, thank you. The book title, hold back the reign, is the same as my web page. And you’ll find some more about me, find out some more. But honestly, you can get the book at Barnes and Noble online, Amazon. Online.
Maybe a couple other sources are on my website, but
Victoria Volk: to that, the show notes.
Michelle Vignault: So yeah. So
Victoria Volk: How about on social? In social?
Michelle Vignault: Social, I’m on Facebook. And Instagram. K? And so if you seek out a hold back the rain, I’m sure you can find it. There’ll be a click on my site.
Victoria Volk: I’ll put links, direct links to those on to your social media also in the show notes. So
Michelle Vignault: Well, thank you. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for this lovely conversation today. I always get so much out of these conversations, and I hope likewise, you received something too.
Michelle Vignault: Yes, yes, time and experience. And I I thank you for yours.
Victoria Volk: You’re welcome. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this enlightening episode, I welcome Dr. Dolores Fazzino, a trailblazing thought leader and visionary in the realm of energy healing. With her unique blend of medical intuition and energy expertise, Dr. Fazzino shares her insights on how intuition and trust can facilitate deep healing and transformation, especially in the context of grief.
Throughout our conversation, Dr. Fazzino opens up about her personal journey, revealing how her childhood experiences with grief shaped her path toward becoming a renowned nurse practitioner and energy healer. She passionately discusses the body’s innate wisdom and how we can tap into our own healing potential by bridging the gap between the physical and spiritual realms.
We delve into the power of energy medicine and the role of intuition in navigating life’s challenges. Dr. Fazzino explains how embracing our emotions and connecting with our inner selves can lead to profound personal growth and resilience. Her compassionate approach offers hope and inspiration to those facing grief, emphasizing that healing is a journey of self-discovery and empowerment.
Join us as we explore the transformative power of energy healing with Dr. Dolores Fazzino. Learn how to harness your intuition to navigate the complexities of grief and emerge stronger on the other side. Whether you seek healing or support a loved one, this episode is filled with wisdom and encouragement for anyone on their own journey through grief.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
The Healing Power of Mindful Grief: Learning to Listen to Your Heart
Grief is often painted as a linear experience—a path with a beginning, middle, and end. But if you’ve ever lost a beloved pet, you know that grief is anything but predictable. It comes in waves, sometimes gentle and sometimes crashing over you when you least expect it. What if, instead of fighting those waves, you could learn to flow with them? What if you could listen to your heart and trust your own process?
Too often, we are conditioned to suppress grief, to “move on” quickly, or to seek external validation for how we feel. But deep healing comes from within. When you trust your emotions and allow yourself to fully experience them, you open the door to true transformation.
The Truth About Grief: There’s No “Right” Way
The loss of an animal companion is profound. They are more than just pets; they are soul connections, sources of unconditional love, and silent witnesses to our lives. Losing them can leave a void that feels impossible to fill. But what if we stop trying to “fix” grief and instead, allow it to be what it is—an expression of love?
Your grief is yours alone. It does not need to fit into anyone else’s timeline or expectations. You don’t have to rush to feel better. You don’t have to explain why your heart still aches weeks, months, or even years later. Your loss is valid. Your love is real. And your healing is your own journey.
Finding Freedom in Feeling
One of the most powerful ways to navigate grief is to truly allow yourself to feel. This may seem simple, but in a world that often discourages deep emotion, it can be one of the hardest things to do.
Instead of pushing your feelings aside, what if you gave them space? When you feel sadness, acknowledge it. When anger rises, let it be present without judgment. When you feel moments of joy—perhaps when remembering a happy memory—allow yourself to embrace them without guilt.
Grief is not just sadness; it is love with nowhere to go. But when you give yourself permission to feel, you create room for that love to transform into something beautiful.
The Energy of Loss: A Shift, Not an End
Many who experience deep grief also notice shifts in their energy. Some feel physically drained, while others may sense their pet’s presence in unexpected ways—a familiar scent, a fleeting shadow, a comforting dream.
What if these experiences aren’t just coincidences? What if they are reminders that love doesn’t disappear; it simply changes form?
Honoring the energy of loss means recognizing that love is eternal. Your bond with your pet doesn’t vanish because they are no longer physically present. They are still with you, in the lessons they taught you, in the love you shared, and in the way they shaped your heart.
Moving Forward with Compassion
Healing is not about forgetting. It’s about carrying love forward in a way that honors both your pet and yourself. It’s about integrating grief into your life, rather than trying to erase it.
So, as you walk through this journey, remember to be gentle with yourself. Listen to your heart. Trust your process. And know that you are not alone.
Your grief is love, and love never truly fades—it transforms.
If you’re looking for more support in navigating the loss of a pet, our program, Do Pet Loss Differently, is here to guide you toward healing in a way that honors both your love and your unique journey. You don’t have to do this alone.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hey, hey, it’s another episode of grieving voices. And today, my guest is Dr. Dolores Fazzino. She is a trailblazing thought leader, visionary, and innovator is revolutionizing the realm of energy healing. As a renowned nurse practitioner, medical intuitive and energy whisperer, she fiercely combines the power of intuition and trust to facilitate profound transformations. Driven by a deep belief in the body’s innate wisdom, she guides individuals on a transformative journey empowering them to tap into their own healing potential. Prepare to be captivated by Dr. Fazzino’s unique blend of intuition, energy healing expertise, and unwavering trust in the body’s innate ability to heal itself. I love your bio, by the way.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Well, thank you so very much. I appreciate that.
Victoria Volk: We spoke just a couple minutes before we started to hit record, and so I really am excited to talk about weaving a lot of this energy work that you and I both do but into the conversation of grief. But before we get there, I think it’s important for people to understand who Dr. Fazzino was as a child, because you had a lot of grief in your childhood, you referenced being able to heal a lot of grief in your childhood, and and how that shaped you to get to where you are today because it’s a journey. Right?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Oh, it’s always a journey and it continues to be a journey no matter how old you are because it’s just like, you know what, just when you think you’re out of the clear, it’s like something else kinda happens. So, you know, that’s but that’s what we’re all here for is to learn and to grow. And we all sign up to come to planet Earth to get our PhDs and being human. Okay? And we’re all working on our dissertation, you know? And being human is about experiencing things in our life and most importantly, experiencing emotions. And for the longest time, emotions have gotten a really bad rap. I know I grew up in a childhood household where we weren’t allowed to feel because that was a coping mechanism. Because if God forbid, if you, you know, unleashed your emotions, especially the ones that were labeled as not so good, you would open the lid of Pandora’s box and it would never shut. And we know that today that that’s not true. However, you know, when, you know, I’m a product of the nineteen sixties, so I’ve been around for a little while. And life back in during that time was way different. Everything was like a nice little sterile containers on the shelves. It’s the illusion of the white picket fence and everything’s beautiful, but behind the doors was, like, shit show. Do you know what I’m saying? It was just, like, everybody was so concerned about keeping up with the neighbors. And what will the neighbors think? The neighbors really didn’t care. You know what I’m saying? It was just like, it was all presentation. But, you know, for my childhood in particular, My mom was the daughter of an alcoholic, which she never really admitted to until she was sixty. So she had the MO of, you know, if anything was painful or anything, her Emma was to ignore it, it’ll go away. Now, I’m an empath, intuitive, and highly sensitive person. I was born that way. I was wired differently than a lot of other people. And so my parents didn’t know what to do with me when my mom would say to me, ignore it. It’ll go away if something was painful. I would try ignoring it and it wouldn’t go away. It got bigger. And I used to say it’s not going away. It’s getting bigger. So for me, in order to survive my child, but I needed to channel my emotion into some creative event you know, creative venture, you know, be it art or music and I really grabbed gravitated to music and really excelled in it. In fact, I was on a pathway to become a concert clarinetist when I was in high school. And in the eleventh hour, I changed my mind. And I changed my mind because Also, what was going on during that time in my childhood? My dad developed a chronic health condition that stemmed from having a back surgery back in nineteen sixty six when he was hospitalized and he picked up a hospital acquired infection at that time after, you know, during his surgery after his surgery. And pretty much, it pulled the rug out from underneath him because he was sick for over two months in the hospital. And I think I was in second grade at the time, and my mom’s trying to keep it all together with four young kids at home. I’m the oldest one. And, you know, we didn’t know if daddy was gonna make it home or not or all this other stuff, and he did survive. Yet when he came home, he looked like a shell of a man that I’d recalled. So that was the beginnings of a ten year journey with my father, with that particular health condition, because he would be fine for a while whenever his immune system got compromised, that whole sequela of that two months being in the hospital and having all this stuff would reoccur. It happened between nineteen seventy and nineteen seventy five four different times. So my childhood was like an emotional roller coaster, Daddy would, you know, we were always waiting for the other shoe to drop when daddy’s gonna get sick again. He have to go to the hospital and be laid up for, like, two months and be on his deathbed and all these other nasty things that me channeling and I we couldn’t feel too. Okay? So I channeled my emotion into my music and I really excelled at it. So what was the pivotal point in all of this is that by The fourth episode of this, we flash forward to nineteen seventy five. So this has been about a ten year span that this has been going on. The CAT scanner came on to the Horizon in Western Medicine as one of the newer tech acknowledgey pieces to diagnose things. So, my dad’s surgeon put him underneath the CAT scan and lo and behold, they found that where his infections had been stemming from was where he had his previous back surgery. So in nineteen seventy five, their solution was to they offered, like, a spinal fusion, which in nineteen seventy five, that was in its neo fight stages of development. And it came with high risk that you would either be paralyzed, you might die, you might get better, you may not get better. And my mom was at her wall with all of this because, you know, my mom’s coping mechanisms were a little different than the average. And so she was looking for alternative possibilities. And you have to remember, this is nineteen seventy five. We didn’t have GoogleMD. We didn’t have any time we had dial phones. We had pay phones. We had, you know, we didn’t have what we have today. Okay? Because that was, like, fifty years ago. And we had the newspapers and we had the rags like a national enquirer. So she ended up finding an article in the national enquirer of all places of a man who was a Presbyterian minister from Carol, Michigan, who had the gift of laying on a hands. And he was actually being featured there’s an article being written, featuring him and his capabilities because he assisted in his brother from healing from leukemia. He didn’t heal him. He assisted in the healing of that. And Reverend Holmes had been doing this work for well over twenty five years, and this was in nineteen seventy five. And so he had been doing it since the nineteen fifties. And you have to remember this was considered Wacko Wacko back in nineteen seventy five. Okay? So my mom was all over this like butter on bread, my dad not so much because he was the biggest skeptic. And it just so happened that My dad was hospitalized at that time when that conversation was occurring. And he had said to my mother, I’ll only do it if the surgeon agrees to it. So my mom marches out to the nurses’ station, and there are Limón behold, there’s a surgeon sitting at the desk writing his notes and she makes an announcement to the surgeon saying, you know, doctor I’m thinking about having a spiritual healer come in to assist my husband with his condition. Would that be okay? Surgeons writing looks up at her It says sure that’s fine and then continues to write. So my mom took that piece of information, went back to my dad’s room, shared that with him, and my dad agreed, not ten minutes went by, She returns back to the same nurses’ station, the same surgeon sitting there, and makes the announcement to the surgeon saying that my husband agreed to have the spiritual healer come in. The surgeon stopped what he was doing, looked up at her and said, What are you talking about? I never agreed to that. So my mom didn’t share that piece of information with my father and a month later. Reverend homes came to our house in Connecticut. I grew up on the East Coast. I’m now in Southern California. And what I remember about him, and I was like a junior in high school, he was extremely humble man, very soft spoken and just had really he was just a beautiful energy, and that essence was just so pure and and radiant. And I don’t know how he knew this, but my dad had one leg that was shorter than the other. And he my dad was barefoot. He didn’t have any of his slippers or shoes that had the lift or anything, but he knew my dad had that for some odd reason. Nobody told him that either. But when my dad sat down, he said for my father to put both his feet up and sure enough, he did, and you could tell that there was a one inch gap between the longer and shorter. And he said, put your legs down. And then he started saying some prayers over my father, and he touched his belly, his solar plexus, and his crown shocker off the top of his head. And quoted some scripture and kind of went into a trance three or four minutes passed by and he said to my father, okay, put both your feet up and they were both the same length. In that moment, my life changed forever. Because I knew it was my mission in this lifetime to bridge the physical with the spiritual and the visible with the invisible. And that’s how I got on my pathway to become in health and being a nurse and a nurse practitioner. My father, the skeptic, started wailing like a baby like I never ever witnessed before because remember he needed to have something visual to know that something was actually happening. Okay? And so more prayers were set over my father for about the next half hour, and then he was instructed to go rest. My father slept for over twenty four hours because as we know energy healers, when we do massive energy work in a field, it’s like our body is a computer. It’s gotten an upgraded program. We need to reboot this computer, so we do that by sleeping sometimes, and it allows our body to recalibrate things at a different level. My dad returned to the same hospital, same CAT scanner. A month later, there was no evidence of any infection or any problem. My dad never had to have that surgery. My dad never had to revisit that particular problem in his lifetime. And he passed away about almost twelve years ago at the age of eighty. So that’s been my journey and you have to remember that back in the seventies, people would say you want to do what? So, I mean, you have to kinda keep that hush hush because I knew what my mission was, yet how I was going to get to the endpoint of where I’m at now has been an incredible journey because I’ve got to witness so much in the last, quote, fifty years of my life in regards to health and wellness and where we’re heading and the trajectory of that as well. The good news is is that in nineteen in the 1990s when the National Institutes of Health started to look at complementary and alternative and Integrated Medicine. That was like the Gateway Opening, where it was a little more embraced. And I truly believe that energy medicine, vibrational frequency and healing in that nature is where we’re heading in the future. Because we’re all energy. Everything is energy. Every everything that you and I are both looking at in our offices are energy. It’s just a very dense form of that. Now, what’s also energy are our thoughts, our beliefs, how we handle our emotions. If we handle them at all, we have pockets of stuck energy everywhere. I mean, it’s just what it is. But also, it’s our connectedness to our higher source our inner wisdom, that intuitive ability we all have that got spark. It’s all the same. It’s the same thing, but also the ancestral stuff that comes into play. It’s like we have all come right now at this time and place in humanity’s evolution to be this big peak where everything is at a precipice that could change at any moment, and the beauty is is that everything is happening in this moment. There’s no past present or future. It’s right here right now. So what you do in this particular moment has a capability to heal the past, but also create the future that quickly. And that’s where we’re at right now. So it’s pretty exciting to be witnessing this and living through this. It’s like, my time is finally here.
Victoria Volk: Curious how that experience ended up changing your father’s life in maybe a spiritual sense, maybe what he chose to do physically. Like, maybe he decided to take a chance and live out a dream he had, you know, or something, but then he got sick and so he couldn’t or and and also the impact it had on your mother’s life too.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Oh my god. You have no idea. You know, it’s like, I think the best way I could describe it is like, this whole thing was a tapestry, and there were so many different threads hanging on to different people and their experiences that threading into this. You know, I I personally think, you know, whatever this was, this was part of my own initiation. Into where I needed to go. And, you know, there’s no mistake. You choose your experiences. You choose your parents. You choose that way before you’re born. You know? It’s all, you know, it’s called pre life planning that you know, there that’s for a whole another conversation, but this does occur. Where you sit sit around with the essences of the souls that and you pick out your parents that are gonna best serve you for where you are. Now my mom’s mother was one of my first spiritual teachers. And even though she passed away when I was a teenager, she’s still very much part of my life. And it it was almost as if she had to be born in order for me to be able to it’s hard to put that into words, but I got the oldest of it. Now I know why she was here on put on Earth. It was because for me, you know, it’s just a weirded thing ever, but it’s just like I got that huge epiphany recently. Well, I think what people need to understand is that even though people are no longer physically with us, they’re still very much more with us than you ever know. It’s just they’re in another dimension at a higher frequency where they don’t have a physical body. They’re here right now and you have access to that all the time. We as human beings forget to ask. And, you know, we think we’re the lone ranger or we have the illusion that we’re all by ourselves or never by ourselves. Never, never ever. You know, there’s help available. It’s just in another dimension. And as we talk about Ascension a little bit, humanity is evolving and ascending as well too. You know, we are transitioning from third dimensional reality to going to fifth dimensional reality. And for, you know, the listeners that don’t really know what that’s all about, it’s like third dimensional reality is a very dense frequency. It’s what we’re kind of witnessing right now that it’s the old paradigm of power, greed, ego. It’s about trying to, you know, force and control. There’s a lot of that going on. Old I mean, this is an old paradigm that’s been here on Earth for for a while. It’s like duality two comes into play like, you know, we have the black and white thinking, good and bad. You know, dark and light. And where we’re kind of shifting to as people are starting to wake up and realize that for so long they’ve been looking on the outside of themselves for what is going to make them happy, which in essence, we know that’s not true because it all starts with ourselves first. And when people start waking up, they have this realization that life is great, but I’m just not happy. Or I’m not feeling fulfilled. Or yeah, they chase the external stuff and it’s a temporary fix, but they’re chasing the next external thing for the next temporary fix. It’s not a lasting happiness peace inner serenity and joy. It’s about chasing things and, technically, we’ve given our power away either consciously or unconsciously to that to allow that to bring us our happiness instead of choosing to come within and allowing ourselves to create that relationship with ourselves. Imagine that having a relationship with yourself. Learning to become your own best friend because news flash The longest relationship you’re gonna ever have in your life is the one you have with yourself. But yet, people treat each other treat themselves like crap, case in play. What do you say to yourself in the quiet of your mind? It probably isn’t pretty sometimes. And we’re all guilty of this, but this is what happens, is that we’re beating ourselves up. But, you know, when we start having a love affair with ourselves and a relationship with ourselves, it’s like this is where you’re able to get those subtle hints. Okay? Where, you know, we’ve all had those moments where our intuition is kind of whispering in our ear saying, Dolores, Don’t do that. Dolores ignores it. Dolores is doing the same thing. This time, it’s like the the voice is a little louder. Dolores don’t do that. Dolores ignore that. Then all of a sudden, the refrigerator drops on her. So what I’m saying is that the signs are there, you have to be still enough to be able to hear the wisdom. And when we are in a noisy world out there, It’s the external. It’s the doing mobile out there. There’s all this chaos and drama because energetically, the gig is almost up on the third dimensional reality. So you’re seeing a lot of this stuff coming into play right now. You’re seeing more chaos because it’s like the third dimension is trying to hang on to its power because they know that it’s gotten amped up because they know that it is, you know, gonna be going away probably. Okay? Or it’s going to be, you know, they’re they’re they’re they have a lot of fear. There’s a lot of fear based thinking with three-dimensional reality, lack fear, whatever. Oh, well, god forbid. I’m not gonna have this. And when we go to fifth dimensional reality and you come to peace within yourself, you have that certainty within yourself that no matter what is going on around you, you’re fine. And when you come to that point, you know, people go through a spiritual awakening sometimes, and they realize that they are in control. Of everything, including their life. It’s not outside there. That’s when you give your power away to something outside of yourself. It’s really about coming back to self. So going on to fifth dimensional reality, so what is fifth dimensional reality? Fifth dimensional reality is a whole different flavor. It is the essence of love. It is the essence of community group. It’s about prosperity abundance for all, not just a select group of people, but it’s also in essence and a beingness that no matter what is going on, you’re going to be fine. Now, case in point, here in the United States, we’ve had some interesting things happen in the last several months. Many of us are, like, scratching our head, like, when are when is when is humanity gonna wake up? Well, many of us have done a lot of work and I feel like the best way to handle some of these things is look at where you’re getting triggered first of all. Okay? Because the trigger is the power piece of how you could go within and to create more peace within yourself. Number two, have some self compassion for yourself, because we need whopping doses of that right now, because we judge and criticize everything, including ourselves, and we’ve got to stop that. Because when we judge and criticize, guess what? We add that to the collective consciousness and we are actually adding fuel to that fire. Okay? As small as it is, beating yourself up and not being kind to yourself. Okay? It it’s that it’s that simple. So when you start having more self compassion for yourself and loving yourself and just accepting yourself for just who you are, you’re going to become more in alignment with who you are at a sold level and you’re higher oversold. And you’re gonna be in alignment with that. And when you’re in alignment with that, it’s like when it’s the definition of when all the holes in the Swiss cheese line up. It’s like a bullet point to creation, manifestation, and just having a better life. Now, my remedy for everything that’s kinda happened since November is that, okay, you know what? I am not going to allow that situation to create my reality. I’m not gonna give my that is not gonna rule my reality. My reality is a way different than that, and that’s okay. So what I choose to do is to be an observer and a witness. What I mean by that, I’m gonna sit in my lounge chair. I already pop the popcorn. And I’m gonna enjoy the show because it’s gonna be very interesting. It’s being in the world but being not of this world. So we’re watching the whole demise of what’s going to be happening as we shift from third-dimensional to fifth dimensional. I know I shared a lot of stuff in a short period of time.
Victoria Volk: No. I’ve been I’ve been taking notes as I as I’ve been listening. I love your mug, by the way, stay wild.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: I know. This is like yeah. I love my mugs.
Victoria Volk: It’s wild out there. Right? Stay wild.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: My god. It’s wild.
Victoria Volk: So how do you do that? Like, through what tools? What what have you picked up along the way? What what was the most helpful to you? And you were first starting?
And and what’s your practice now?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Well, you know, I’m a firm believer in mindful activity because I feel that mindful activity is the gateway to getting into being in the present moment. Okay? And it’s all about being in the present moment. You know, mindful activity is anything that allows you to lose all sense of time and place. And we’ve all had those moments where you get caught up in a project and hours go by and it seems like it’s ten minutes. That is a definition of a mindful activity. And what’s beautiful is that it’s going to be unique to every individual. You know, it could be as on a continuum, as formal, as doing like sitting in silent meditation and, you know, chanting or it could be going for a walk on the beach, or gardening, or picking up a craft, or painting, or music, whatever is going to get you in the zone of just timelessness. And, you know, when you look at our fur and feather foes, our friends, they’re the definition of being in the present moment. They’re right here right now. They’re you know, they there’s no such thing as time. They there’s no such thing as holding a grudge or whatever. Well, you know, maybe there is if if, you know, they’ve been punished and stuff like that. They they they have a tendency to do that. But, you know, overall, children and animals are our best teachers because they haven’t been tainted by this world yet as to, you know, what has been projected onto them as to what’s gonna work and what’s not gonna work because of other people. It it’s about allowing yourself the grace to just be instead of thinking that you always have to be in motion. Because when you’re being, okay, and you’re doing a mindful activity, you’re actually in the present moment. You’re right here right now. Okay? When you’re in the present moment, you’re actually in your physical body. Believe it or not. When you’re in your physical body, this is where you get to experience emotions. You have to have a physical body to experience emotions. I think what’s really kind of comical is that people come to planet Earth to run a learn about emotions on the other side. They plan out their their pre life stuff. They get a whopping dose of amnesia. They come here and they’re like, oh my god, emotion dip the pool. Whoop. I’m in my head. I don’t want to feel it’s like they shut everything down. So what happens is that it’s very telling for me where people are when they say I think I feel. What the hell is I think I feel? It’s intellectualizing your emotions. You’re not actually feeling them. You’re thinking about what it should feel like, but you’re not actually having the experience.
You need to drop from here to here to this heart brain. Okay? So we have a brain brain, heart brain, and a gut brain. When we’re here in our heart, if you look at the figure of eight and the heart is the intersection of the two lobes, this is how we bring more balance into us because we need our brain. We need all the things to play nicely in the sandbox together. Right now, it’s just like they’re they’re doing this sometimes. Right? So we need to blend the things together, and it’s not about saying one thing is better than the other. No. I always like to tell people to experiment and make it your own. It’s not about somebody else doing it for you. You have the experience because when you have the experience, this is where you’re gonna gain the wisdom. Now getting back to what I was talking about being in your body and experiencing emotions, when you’re able to feel what is going on. Okay? You’re saying, for example, you get triggered. And all of a sudden, you’re going down the rabbit hole of, like, oh my god. I don’t I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s like when you are awake, okay, this is where your power comes into play. When you are in your physical body, and you get triggered, you have options and choices. Well, you always did, but you’re more aware of what your options and choices are. Yes, you could go down to rabbit hole and react, and sometimes, you know, that’s necessary. Or you could say to yourself, that’s interesting. I’m being triggered. And why is that so? Instead of just automatically respond you know, it it’s allowing you to instead of react respond, but also to gain the wisdom as to why. All you need to do is ask why to yourself, and I’m being triggered because of what? And usually, it’s the trigger is a tip of the iceberg. It’s something way deeper that’s within you that is crying to be healed. Okay? And sometimes it’s just the acknowledgement of what that is is enough to shift it and brings this whole triggering thing or the emotional uprights to neutrality. It sounds really magical and, you know, very alchemical and that’s what it is. I feel people need to realize healing doesn’t take a lot. Once you are dialed in and you’re in your body and you’re gaining the wisdom and you’re able to hear that voice within yourself. That voice within yourself is going to be your barometer and to guide you onto your next steps.
Victoria Volk: I can hear people. What if I’m questioning what I’m hearing? How do I know it’s not my ego do I you know what I mean? Like, how do I go with my heart and not my ego and I’m not making it up and
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: So the thing is is like start doing grounding exercises. So people could go to my website. I have a a a free downloadable and it’s grounding in multiple it’s being in the present moment. But it’s a grounding exercise that’s about five minutes and it allows you to ground your energy in multiple dimensions. And you will definitely feel a difference when you’re in your head or when you’re in your body. When you pop into okay. Let’s put it this way. You’re doing your your life and all of a sudden you get this intuitive hit. That you need to be doing something else. And then you jump from your body into your head trying to figure out, is this real? Is this whatever? So you’ve disconnected the flow by jumping from here to here. And we need to keep you Remember the the whole infinity loop, you need to be here. When you stay in your heart and your body, it’s the right thing. When we start going into our head and trying to figure something out, there’s nothing to figure out. It’s just having a lot of blind faith and trust of what you’re getting. And we’ve been deprogrammed to not trust this. Okay? We’ve been deprogrammed to not to trust this in many aspects of our life, most importantly, our health and well-being. And I could say this because I’m Western medicine drained and I dabble, you know, I play on the fringes of WUwoo and stuff like that. Many people give their power away to something outside of themselves of that doctor, when their body’s screaming at them, don’t do it. But they said, well, you know, I don’t have the knowledge of stuff, so I’ll trust that. You may want to recoil and you know, have another go pass at that because, you know what, we’ve all had those situations where our intuition’s screaming at us, we ignore it, and we do something different and we live to pay the price for it. And Right.
Victoria Volk: I just yeah. I just wanted to share like, it made me think of a great tip for Grievers. Right? Because when you’re grieving, let’s say it’s been it doesn’t matter if it’s been six months, six years. If you feel like you are stuck stuck in this deep depression, you then go to the doctor, right, to Mhmm. Address your depression, not really realizing that if you sat with your emotions, did this practice of getting to know yourself more intimately instead of trying to run away from your feelings and your past and really look at it, you would not need that doctor, you would not feel depression, you would feel empowered. And I think that’s the opposite, you know. It’s it’s so easy for grievers to jump to that.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Well, you know, and and the thing is I think I know grieving is we all go through it. In, you know, whether you lost a loved one or, you know, right now in Southern California, we’re ravishing the whole LA fire thing, a huge loss of property. People are grieving. You know, for what had been, what could have been, and, you know, who knows why all this stuff happens to people? It just happens. I I know from my personal life, it’s allowed me to grow at a very deep and profound level, allowing me to have more empathy and compassion, not only for myself, but for other people as well. And grieving is such a personal thing that, you know what, allow yourself to feel and experience what you’re experiencing because when you try to suppress that or ignore it, you you know, it’s like whatever that is, it turns inward. You start having health challenges, you start getting anxious because you’re not it’s that’s energy that needs to be experienced, so it becomes neutral. When we try to stuff these bubbles of emotion and not deal with them in our energy field, guess what? Over time, it tips into your physical body, and then it starts raising hell in a hand basket. You know, you might come down with cancer. Maybe you got some other chronic thing going on because of that. Because it’s repressed emotion or stuck emotion or trapped emotion, whatever that is, and it’s wanting to come to from unconsciousness to consciousness. It’s like it it moves from being dormant to active because it wants to weigh out, because it doesn’t want to stay there. So when we are able to look at what we hide in our physical body, okay, well, let’s let’s back up a little bit. Just imagine an iceberg. Okay? The tip of the iceberg is the physical body of what we could see. Underneath the surface is all the emotional, mental, spiritual, ancestral things are connected in. Everything that is that we can’t see is underneath the surface of that iceberg. What happens is that when we start melting the iceberg, it floats up. So what’s underneath the surface is starting to float up into what we could see. Because it’s melting. So what’s unconscious underneath the surface is moving to consciousness above the waterline. So now we need to deal with it. It’s like when things are healing, the unconsciousness needs to move to consciousness so we could we could see it, so it could be removed from our field.
Victoria Volk: That’s a very good analogy. And it’s and it’s painful. And it doesn’t feel good.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: No. It doesn’t. And and the thing is it’s like this two show path.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Yeah?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Okay. And it does. And I’ll I’ll tell you being a human being, it’s not for the faint of heart. You’re brave and you’re courageous. And that gets tested all the time.
And you know what? It’s okay. You’re not alone. You’re not the only one doing it. I have news flash for you.
Everybody experiences this, but not a lot of people talk about it. So how
Victoria Volk: does someone you talked about the moving into the fifth dimension. And what do you suspect is the timeline on that? And then, also,
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: you know what?
Victoria Volk: I have another question after that.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Yeah. Go ahead. I I I’m gonna string the essential symptoms in there because
Victoria Volk: Oh, okay. Yeah. And then how do you know yeah. How do you know
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Oh my god. So funny story because I’ve been in the clinical setting, most of my career, and I still practice a couple days a week, you know, I assist in surgery. So as a nurse practitioner, but I also do my other stuff as well. And podcast and I have a radio and TV show as well too. But what I’m saying is this, probably about fifteen years ago, there was like a lot of people coming to the emergency department with these signs and symptoms that were mimicking like heart attacks and really bad disease processes or whatever. And the doctors would work everybody up and they weren’t having a heart attack or anything like that. But what was clear to me, I was thinking like, oh my god, those are Ascension symptoms. I just kinda knew this. I said because what happens is that, okay, we’re energetic beings. Okay. Remember we’re vibrating maybe third, fourth dimensional reality right now. Our bodies are much denser. When you take on a higher frequency, your body chemistry and everything, you’re becoming more fluid like than dense. Okay? The body’s physicality is more of a fluid versus a solid. And so what happens with that is, like, just like a computer gets an upgraded program, energetically, we are taking in more light, which is a higher frequency. And our body is like the computer that needs to be recalibrated to the higher frequency. It’s like creating homeostasis at a higher frequency for people who, you know, are into science and stuff. So what happens is this, when we get a download of information, Sometimes we might feel tired. We might feel like we’re coming down with the flu. We might also, you know, feel like our chest is we’re having chest pain or whatever. And I’m not saying, don’t go to the please do because God forbid, if it’s something bad, you wanna make sure we catch it. Yet, just know that if you go to bed sometimes and just relax and sleep, you’ll feel different the next day. Because our bodies are recalibrating to a higher frequency. So case in point, I recently just recovered from, like, a week’s worth of lagrange. And I am sure I got I know I’ve been getting energetically downloaded, and it was about me purging a lot of old stuff that was stuck in my body. And that’s fine. Because I feel And it didn’t take long to do that, and I actually feel more alive now than I have a week before. You know, as as weird as that is. So it’s just allowing yourself to just be right here instead of reacting and oh my god. I’m dying or whatever. Because that’s what our natural tendency is. Just sit with that and just breathe and do what you can to, I wanna say, soothe self, nurture self, take care of self. This isn’t your body wanting you to just rest. We’re in a deep state of a lot of people just kind of resting because this is what’s happening. The trajectory since two twenty, twenty twelve has been like this and it’s like this now. So things are happening rapidly. And they’re gonna continue to to rapidly do that. So our body is gonna continually to recalibrate itself and recalibrate itself to take on high more light energy and more frequency. So that’s what we’re witnessing. And I invite people you know, to do Google search, just look up Ascension symptoms because there’s a whole list of them. But I have witnessed that because I knew exactly what that was. They the doctors would send people home because they would find nothing wrong with them. And there wasn’t anything wrong with them. They was just essential symptoms. Like, two days later, they were fine.
Victoria Volk: I always thought of it as, like, grief, just manifesting or, like, emotions just manifesting. Right? Since I’ve been a certified grief specialist in doing the work that I do and learning, you know, like fast forward. Like, I know that now. Right? But before I went for my certification, like the day before my class was to start, I woke up with diarrhea and vomiting. And I had gone to eat with someone I met on the tour bus in this other I went to another state for my training and certification. And I go through the I was going through the process that I take people through now. So it’s like I I didn’t know what to expect, And I was excited, but I was also really anxious about it too. But had dinner had the same meal as this other person. So I know it wasn’t food poisoning.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But, yeah, I I recognize now that’s what it was. It was like the per like you said the word purge. It was the purge before the purge.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: And, you know, I think we all could agree on this too. It’s like whenever you start or sign up for a course, even though it might be months away, it actually coursework starts that day, you sign up. It’s like you can energetically, you’ve committed to that, and it’s, like, starting it’s in motion. It just doesn’t start, like, two months later when you show up. It’s in motion.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. Because yeah. You’re committed to it. Right? Your energy is behind it already, and I mean, the work.
Yeah.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: It’s right. So, you know, I feel that we’re in very exciting times. And I’m very, very optimistic of what the future is going to bring because even though it looks not so much that way, on the outside. This is a necessary process that we’re going through. And it’s it’s gonna be okay. We’re all gonna be fine. We really are. And I think one of the biggest things I could share with people is just to be kind to yourself, love yourself, and really work on having a relationship with yourself. Maybe make twenty twenty five a year of recommitting to you.
Victoria Volk: What does your grief taught you?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Oh my. My grief has taught me that I am more resilient than I could ever imagine. I’m never alone and there’s more help available to us both the what the people we could see and the things that we cannot.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You mentioned the word trust, and that’s actually the word my word of the year.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: That was my word last year.
Victoria Volk: Oh. Because I I think I I’m a lot I a really struggle because I’m very much
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Like a lot of people. Right? We try to intellectualize grief. We try to intellectualize, like you said, problem solving and talking our way out of it or solution finding our way out of things and some
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: And, you know, sometimes the the only thing you could do is just be and just, you know, allow things. And I I think we as human beings have then program that we have to be in motion, we have to be doing something in order to be labeled as productive member of society. Who made that rule up?
Victoria Volk: Cereal’s paradigm. Right?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Oh my god. That that is so We’re we’re we’re changing that. I I feel that when you sit in those moments of just being because sometimes you get some of your most profound insights because you’re quite enough to hear that.
Victoria Volk: And you may brought up a good point too, and this is one thing that I say a lot is really the answers are in better the better answers are in the better questions. So asking yourself better questions. Engaging in questions with other people and can unlock something for you too. Like, we can’t see the label from inside the jar either. So it’s like if you feel like you need to talk things out, sometimes that’s energetically, that help is helpful for people to talk things out Absolutely. That inspiration and, like, oh, I didn’t think of it that way or it can shift your entire perspective of a past experience when you engage in conversation about something emotional. Right?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Absolutely. And, you know, even doing something like journaling or something creative if you, you know, dabble in painting or, you know, even if you knit or crochet, I mean, you know, it’s a mindful activity. If you could just step into something that’s going to like I’m gonna repeat myself, just allow you to lose all sense of time in place. That’s that’s the sweet spot.
Victoria Volk: That’s a great piece of advice in a nutshell.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: Listeners. So what are you looking forward to? What do you got going on? How can people reach you? Find you?
All the things?
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Well, thank you. Well, you could reach out to me through my website. My website is doctor doloresfazino dot com. And I mentioned something about that guided meditation. To be in the present moment. I think that is a great place to start. I also offer a program called I’m awake now what? It’s for people who are on their spiritual journey that have had an awakening. And, you know, know I’ve been there. I know you’ve been there. It’s like sometimes it could be a very daunting experience when you just have the realization that you wake up one morning and your life isn’t working. And what was making you happy before no longer is. And maybe you’ve lost somebody, lost a job, you’re going through a grieving process, and you just don’t know what’s next for you. We offer weekly Zooms live Zooms sessions on topics that are kind of current like last week we talked about grief, LA fires, and stuff like that, and also resilience this week. And it offers tools, resources, immunity support on your spiritual journey. And it’s a monthly membership program. And you could get more information about that through my website as well, dr doloresvasino dot com and just look for the tab I’m awake now what? It’ll get you the rest of the information that’s there. I know for myself, on my spiritual journey many, many decades ago, it was a different time in place. Okay? Fifty years ago, the stuff that we’re talking about now is considered Wacko Wacko. But it’s mainstream now. So, thank god. The paradigms are shifting. And you know, the good news is is that you don’t have to to experience this by yourself and try to maneuver through it by yourself. You can, that’s a choice. Yet, there’s ways of having support for that as well. So I encourage you to reach out and see how I could best support you. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And thank you so much for sharing all that you shared today. We didn’t even get really into, like, the deep grief and different stories that you had because you had mentioned pet loss and job opportunities and other things that you’ve experienced in your life. Of course, you know, grief stacks up and it’s cumulatively negative. Right? Stacks up in our bodies and So we didn’t get into a lot of that, but I do feel like this was the divine conversation that was just meant to be as it was and forever needs it, and I trust that people will get from it what they need. So I’ll leave it at that, and I thank you so much for being my guest.
Dr. Dolores Fazzino: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
I had the privilege of sitting down with Reese Zahner, a poet, and writer who has beautifully transformed her grief journey into a powerful testament of healing and acceptance under the pen name Cleo Childs.
Reese opens up about the profound impact of losing her mother to early onset Alzheimer’s, a journey that spanned seven years from diagnosis to loss. Through her candid storytelling, Reese shares how she turned to poetry as a means to process her emotions.
We delve into the complexities of anticipatory grief and the unique challenges of witnessing a loved one gradually slip away. Reese’s honesty about her initial struggles with understanding grief and her eventual path to acceptance is both moving and inspiring. She speaks to the isolation she felt during this time and how writing became a lifeline, allowing her to express emotions she couldn’t articulate otherwise.
Her poetry, once a private refuge, has now become a beacon of hope for others navigating similar journeys. We explore the themes of presence, patience, and the lessons Reese learned along the way, emphasizing that healing is not linear but rather a continuous process.
Throughout our conversation, her warmth and resilience shine through as she reflects on the gifts her mother gave her. Whether you’re currently walking through a season of loss or supporting someone who is, her insights offer comfort and encouragement.
Join us as we explore the healing power of poetry and the profound journey of love, loss, and acceptance.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
The Unseen Journey of Grief: How Loss Transforms Us
Grief is not a single emotion. It’s not a straight path or a clear-cut process. It is a deeply personal, ever-shifting landscape that changes the way we experience the world.
For many of us, there is a moment that divides our lives into “before” and “after.” A moment when everything shifts, when the weight of loss becomes a new reality we never asked for. For Reese, that moment came with the diagnosis of her mother’s Alzheimer’s. A normal day at work transformed into a defining moment of realization: life would never be the same again.
The Journey Before and After Loss
Before loss, we may see ourselves as impatient, driven, striving for perfection, trying to be everything for everyone. But grief has a way of stripping us down to our core, revealing truths we might have ignored before. In Reese words, she learned patience not just with the disease but with herself. She learned presence over perfection, compassion over control. And in the depths of loss, she found wisdom—hard-earned and unwanted, yet impossible to give up.
A Wedding and a Final Moment of Recognition
One of the most profound moments Reese shared was the last time her mother truly recognized her. On her wedding day, Reese planned every detail to ensure her mother was comfortable, knowing that recognition was slipping away. In that moment, her mother saw her, truly saw her, and uttered the words Cleo now treasures: “You’re in a pretty dress, and I’m in a pretty dress. This is the way it’s supposed to be.”
That moment, frozen in time, was a gift—one that would soon fade but remain forever in memory.
Grief is often misunderstood. It is not just sadness; it is not just depression. It is a spectrum of emotions—some days gray and heavy, some days sharp and colorful. It is the feeling of being disconnected, of carrying an emotional weight that few know how to hold with you.
Reese describes how she, a self-proclaimed extrovert, found herself withdrawing into solitude after her mother’s passing. The need to conserve energy, to protect her heart, became paramount. Over time, this isolation was not just about surviving—it was about rebuilding. She learned to be selective with her relationships, to choose people who truly held space for her rather than those who asked, “How are you?” without really wanting to know.
The Hard-Won Wisdom of Loss
One of the hardest lessons of grief is the realization that suffering changes us. It molds us into someone new—more patient, more empathetic, more intentional. Cleo acknowledges this transformation with a bittersweet truth: “I am a better person because I lost her, and I resent that I had to lose her to become that person.”
It is a sentiment many of us feel but rarely say out loud. The wisdom we gain from suffering is invaluable, but the cost is steep. And yet, there is strength in that acknowledgment. There is power in knowing that grief, though painful, has the capacity to shape us into someone wiser, more compassionate, and more present.
The Universality of Grief
At its core, grief is one of the most human experiences. It is what connects us to one another, what turns “disparate sailors into unified crewmen,” as Cleo poetically describes. It is an unspoken bond between those who have walked through loss and those who will one day face it.
So, if you are grieving, know this: You are not alone. Your emotions, however unpredictable, are valid. And while grief may never fully disappear, it can evolve into something that gives life new meaning.
Reese journey teaches us that grief is not just about surviving—it’s about learning how to live again, with all the complexity, beauty, and heartbreak that comes with it.
And perhaps, in sharing our stories, we help each other take one small step forward in the journey of loss and healing.
Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this touching episode, Erin Whalen shares her heartfelt journey of growing up with her beloved sister, Gina, who had cerebral palsy. Through her personal experience of anticipatory grief and loss, Erin found her calling as the founder of Compassionate Coaching, where she now helps end-of-life and bereavement professionals develop essential communication skills.
Erin opens up about the profound impact of losing Gina in 2016 and how their unique sister relationship – though different from what many might consider typical – shaped her deep understanding of nonverbal communication and empathy.
Erin’s story beautifully illustrates how our most challenging life experiences can transform into gifts we share with others. As she discusses her ongoing connection with Gina’s memory and her work teaching empathy skills, Erin reminds us that grief takes many forms and that there’s no “right” way to grieve. Her mission to help others feel seen and heard in their grief journey stems from her own understanding of anticipatory grief – an experience she lived with for 40 years before finding the language to describe it.
For those living with anticipatory grief or supporting someone with special needs, Erin’s story serves as a tender reminder that they’re not alone in their complex emotions. Her work is a beautiful testament to how our deepest wounds can become our greatest gifts in serving others.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH ERIN:
Living in the Shadow of Anticipatory Grief: A Sister’s Journey to Finding Purpose
When we think about grief, we often picture it as something that follows a loss. But what about the grief that lives alongside us, day after day, as we love someone we know we might lose? This is the powerful story that Erin Whalen shares on the latest episode of Grieving Voices podcast, where she opens up about her 40-year journey with anticipatory grief – a feeling she experienced long before she had the words to name it.
Growing up as the youngest of four siblings, Erin’s life was shaped by her relationship with her sister Gina, who had cerebral palsy. While many siblings share secrets and argue over borrowed clothes, Erin’s sisterly bond was unique. It was a relationship built on unspoken understanding, where love was expressed through presence rather than words. “I didn’t have that typical sisterly relationship with Gina,” Erin reflects, touching on the bittersweetness of grieving not just what was, but what could have been.
The beauty of Erin’s story lies in how she transformed her experience into a gift for others. Through her work at Compassionate Coaching, she now teaches communication skills to end-of-life and bereavement professionals. Her childhood experience of interpreting Gina’s nonverbal cues became what she calls an unexpected “Ph.D. in nonverbal communication” – a skill she now shares with others who work with the grieving and dying.
But perhaps the most touching aspect of Erin’s story is her continued bond with Gina, even after her passing in 2016. She speaks of conversations with her sister during early morning walks, of celebrating birthdays with ice cream sandwiches – simple yet profound ways of keeping love alive. As she navigates being older than Gina ever was, she shares a particularly moving moment: “When you were 45, you died,” she told Gina during one of their spiritual conversations, to which she felt Gina respond, “And when you were 46, you lived.”
For those carrying the weight of anticipatory grief – that constant companion of loving someone while knowing you might lose them – Erin’s story offers both validation and hope. She reminds us that there’s no “right” way to grieve, no perfect formula for processing loss. Sometimes grief looks like planning imaginary funerals for those still living, sometimes it’s feeling relief after a long illness ends, and sometimes it’s simply eating an ice cream sandwich in remembrance.
Erin’s journey teaches us that our deepest wounds can become our greatest gifts in serving others. Her work stands as a testament to the transformative power of grief when we allow it to shape us into more compassionate, understanding human beings. For anyone walking the path of anticipatory grief or supporting someone who is, her message is clear: you’re not alone, your feelings are valid, and your experience matters.
As we navigate our own grief journeys, whether anticipatory or after loss, Erin’s story reminds us that even in our most isolating moments, we’re part of a larger community of hearts who understand. Sometimes, having the language to describe our experience – like finally being able to name “anticipatory grief” after 40 years – can be the first step toward healing and finding purpose in our pain.
After all, grief is not just about loss – it’s about love. And love, as Erin shows us, has the power to transform our deepest sorrows into gifts we can share with others.
For those interested in learning more about anticipatory grief or seeking support in their own journey, you can listen to the full episode of Grieving Voices podcast featuring Erin Whalen, where she shares more insights about grief, healing, and the power of compassionate communication.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello, and welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Erin Wallen. She is the founder of Compassionate Coaching whose mission is to restore dignity to the grieving and dying and to help them feel seen and heard. By filling the cups of and providing communication skills to those who serve them. Before founding compassionate coaching in the fall of 2020, Erin spent fourteen years as a professional actress and role player, particularly in medical education. She uses that background as an actor, trainer, facilitator, and playback theater practitioner to develop highly interactive, cathartic, and memorable programming that centers around giving and receiving empathy for professionals in the end of life and bereavement field. Aaron uses her own experience with grief, particularly her sister Gina’s death in twenty sixteen and her lifelong relationship with anticipatory grief to infuse her work with empathy and compassion. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise and your personal grief story in particular here on my podcast today.
Erin Whalen: Thank you for having me, Victoria. I’m really happy to be here.
Victoria Volk: And I think this is a very interesting niche as someone, I’m a trained end of life, Dula. And I even know in my energy healing work, the organization through which I trained with bio field tuning in particular, they’re now talking more about facilitating training to help people have really just teaching people practitioners how to communicate with their clients. And even when I went through my end of life, life do a training, that really wasn’t a heavy emphasis either. Because I think it’s it’s almost like this given or people think it’s this given natural gift that empathy is a natural gift. Right? I think it is. Some people haven’t and really some people where where it comes easily. Right? And people can really struggle with putting themselves in other people’s shoes and empathizing and and relating in that way. And so I think you found a niche for yourself that’s probably very needed because that doesn’t come natural for a lot of people.
Erin Whalen: Right? It it didn’t come naturally for me. It was something I had to learn, and I think that Actually, going back to my sister Gina, at her wake, I had a cousin come up to me. And she said, she said, this this is gonna sound funny. She said, but I really think that having Gina as your sister, Gina was really severely disabled, she had cerebral palsy. And she said, I think having Gina as your sister really helps make you, you know, who you are. And in my mind, I’m like, nah, I’m just naturally, like, warm and gifted and, like, I’m just I’m just a good human, like, that and then I’m like, no. No. No. Like, that is absolutely true. Like, when you are in a household where, you know, you see death, imminent, and illness as your daily bread, you can’t help. But, I mean, you could, like, you could you could become better and, you know, I’ve definitely I’ve definitely been working my own bitterness and things, but, like, hopefully, that enables you to become a more compassionate human. But even if you have that compassion kind of naturally, like, you these are skills. It’s communication skills. It’s not it’s not something that you’re either born with or not. As you said, like some people are more naturally gifted in it, just like some people are more naturally gifted in music. But, you know, unless you’re you’re a prodigy, you you actually have to learn, like, you actually have to learn things and even prodigis. I’m sure learn things. So you have to practice the skills. You have to learn the the notes and the scales and the communication skills.
You have to learn things like empathy, you have to learn things like how to be aware of your own cadence and your own nonverbal communication, and how do you learn about other people’s nonverbal communication? Those are skills you have to learn.
Victoria Volk: You know, even if it comes natural, I agree with that too. Yeah.
Erin Whalen: Exactly.
Victoria Volk: And then the flip side of that is, like, passionate fatigue that can often happen when you’re either exposed to that on an ongoing basis as helpers or healers often are or even just caregivers?
Erin Whalen: Absolutely. I’ve often said I’m there to serve the people who are at the bedside because I know being at the bedside, maybe that will change in in some, you know, season of my life. But at this point, I look at that and I say, that’s not what I’m called to. So, you know, he was a death jewel. I I tip my hat to you and I say, you’re doing work that most people on the planet can’t envision themselves doing. And so we know that we need you. And so I’m here to serve you all. I’m here to say, I can help you with these things so that you can continue doing the work that you love, so that you can continue doing the work the work that you love and have it not exhaust you. As much as it might if you didn’t have these skills.
Victoria Volk: I want to circle back to that, so let’s put a pin in that. PIN? Yes. Because I think it’s important for whether you’re a caregiver or whether you work in this industry or not. I think you have a lot to share on that.
But first, I wanna let’s rewind the clock and Okay. To what brought you to this work and that you kind of you mentioned it briefly, but your sister Gina who had cerebral palsy cerebral palsy? I will say that wrong.
Erin Whalen: I know. I growing up, we always heard cerebral palsy. Yeah. But then, like, I started, you know, once YouTube and things are around, then it’s cerebral palsy and it’s like, yeah, I don’t even know. I don’t even she had CP.
She had CP.
Victoria Volk: So was she older or younger than you?
Erin Whalen: Older, older.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. So that’s that’s part of it too is that now I’m living I’m reaching ages that Gina never reached. So that’s that’s the season I’m in is that I’m forty eight and I just turned forty eight like two weeks ago. And just over two weeks ago because Gina died in twenty sixteen. She was forty five and it was two weeks after I turned forty.
So it was, you know, now I’m I’m forty six was a really odd year for me because I was like, this is weird to be the age my older sister never reached. But forty seven and forty eight, I’m like, yeah, I’m I’m here. I’m ready for it.
Victoria Volk: Just talked about this with the last guest I recorded with whose episode won’t go live until twenty twenty five just like yours, but we had talked about that and how it’s the dates that people really don’t talk about. The ages, the milestones that we grow up with sometimes. I mean, considering I was very young when my father passed away, so he was forty four when he passed away. So for me to you know, that was one of the things too. Like, okay, I’m going to be the age that my father passed away soon. Just what does that mean for me? You know? And I can relate to that. And I think many people listening to this can relate to that. And so how have you navigated those milestones? And and how have you honored your sister’s life when those have come around?
Erin Whalen: Well, I remember when I was getting ready to turn forty six. And It was I was at a job and it was a really cool job where I go and I go off-site to a resort and I get to work with physicians who are improving their communication skills. So I’m like, this early morning walk on this like golf course and it’s, you know, sunrise and I’m just like loving life. But I’m also very tender with my heart because I was getting ready in just a few days to turn forty six, which was the age that Gina never reached. And as I was walking, I was talking with Gina, which I, you know, I never heard the term continuing bonds until recently ish. And I’m like, oh, they’re real. Like, those continuing bonds are so real. So I talked to Gina all the time. I was talking to her as I was walking. And I had been listening to a song also that really, like, unlocks my heart and it’s called forgiven by dev talent and it’s just this beautiful song. And I’m talking to Gina and listening to the music and I say and I say to her and I say Gina, you know, when you were forty five, you died. And I sensed that she said back to me, and when you were forty six, you lived. And literally, like, within seconds of having that conversation with Gina, I look up and there is this blue hair in, like, very close to me and he just lifts up and takes flight. And it was one of those moments that you’re like, this was deep. Like, I’m gonna remember this. Actually, I’m in the process of finishing up my book and it’s in the books. It’s like one of those moments where you’re just like, this is something. And you know, it’s interesting because that was right before I turned forty six. And I’m glad I had that conversation with Gina, and I’m glad she said you lived because it really was a hard year. It really was a difficult year. And so now that I passed it and I’m a couple years past that that age, I can look back and say, you’re right, Gina. Like, it was a hard year, but I lived. Like, I’m still here. I’m still here, I’m still trying to make this world a better place. And so and so that was that was really memorable. So I think, you know, communicating with her to get back to your actual question, Victoria. Communicating with her has helped me. Honoring certain dates. You know, for me, it’s her birthday and then her the date that she died, which is November thirtieth. Like, those are dates that I honor her and remember her in a specific, but it is every year what that honoring looks like because I’m a firm believer in, like, do what makes sense for you this time and you don’t have to do anything big or like if you do something small, it doesn’t mean you love them less. Right? Like it can be really small and it doesn’t have to be anything. So finding little ways, little ways to Why usually we, as a family, eat ice cream sandwiches on her birthday and then the day that she died because she left ice cream sandwiches. And that’s that’s about that’s about it. Like, that’s really all I do these days when those dates come around because that works for me. And I know that it doesn’t mean I love her less if I’m not doing something big. The first birthday after Gina died the first time her birthday rolled around. I ran a five k and I’m not a runner. But I was like, I’m gonna do this for Gina and because Gina was wheelchair bound. She never walked. And so for me, it was like, I am going to use all of the things, you know, and opportunities that Gina never had, and now I’m really content just having an ice cream too much.
Victoria Volk: And I love how you shared how that can change over time. And I think as we evolve with our grief, it’s normal and it’s natural for that to change over time, like you said.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like the last thing we wanna do is pressure griefers to, like, do something. Like, you don’t have to do anything. It’s okay.
Victoria Volk: And like you said, it’s I mean, I know people have very different people have different bearing beliefs. Mhmm. But those continuing bonds, like, I think so many people really don’t acknowledge or accept or They think it’s woo woo or whatever to communicate with those who have passed. That certainly wasn’t something that was taught to me that that was okay even as a child. Like, that would have been an amazing healing tool I think for me as a child to Mhmm.
Someone to give me that permission, right, or to give me that understanding that that’s possible. Right? And I think as Grievers It’s so important to have something to believe in.
Erin Whalen: Mhmm. I
Victoria Volk: do. And if that can give you hope,
Erin Whalen: mhmm, in
Victoria Volk: your healing, then by all means, it’s it’s worth doing. And that’s a small thing that you can do on a daily basis.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to is my own curiosity. Your sister is older than you. And I can imagine that people who parents who have a child with special needs, question, should I have more kids given when someone has something that would require a lot more care and things like that, have you personally ever felt like or growing up, felt the weight of that? Of being another child in the home to be cared for. Like, did that influence your independence?
Do you think?
Erin Whalen: I think so. I think it was I was a pretty quiet kid. I internalized a lot. And so I think for me, it was assessing the situation. Without realizing I was doing it and realizing, okay. Like, clearly, someone here needs has great needs and much greater than I will ever have. And so it’d probably be best for me to just, you know, not make a not make trouble. Right? So that was kind of my role, if you will, was kind of a really good kid. I mean, I’m sure. Mean, there are many times I was not a good kid. But, you know, for the most part, I was good in school and, you know, I didn’t have I didn’t get into trouble at school or I was I was pretty easy in that that way. And so I think I internalized it. I don’t think I ever ever logically, like, came to that conclusion. I think I just kinda slipped into that. And maybe some of it has to do with my temperament. You know, I’m very introverted. I do believe that that is something that’s, you know, from from birth and, like, whether Gina had CP or not, I’m sure I would have been an introvert. Right? And so, you know, maybe that was part of it too. But, yeah, I think I think I just kind of realized that, you know, well, someone really needs a lot of care. And, you know, school came easy for me. Like, I didn’t I just kind of did what I needed to do to to be a good kid. You know? And I was happy. Like, I I had friends, I had what I needed, and but I I do think there was this kind of subconscious feeling of, like, I don’t wanna I don’t wanna be causing more need in the house. There’s already such profound need.
Victoria Volk: Was it just you and your sister?
Erin Whalen: No. I’m the youngest of four. Okay. So I have a living older sister and a living older brother.
Victoria Volk: And they’re old they’re both older than Gina?
Erin Whalen: Gina is the second. Okay. So my brother and I are both younger than Gina.
Victoria Volk: You know, they just say there’s an importance in this in the birth order. Right? And I think that plays a role definitely in in a situation like this where there is a child with special needs Yeah. And requiring special care and things like that. Was there ever a time? Do you feel like where you had this awareness about that where oh, gosh. I do have needs. And they haven’t been met in a really long time or it’s time that I meet my own needs or things like that. Like, I’m just talking about needs. Right?
Erin Whalen: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: I mean, we can have our basic needs met. I’m talking emotional or connection wise, especially if you internalize a lot of that. Right? And there’s
Erin Whalen: Yeah. You
Victoria Volk: don’t want to necessarily communicate that openly. How did that translate, I guess, that awareness about that into your teen and adult years?
Erin Whalen: You know, it’s something I I didn’t really think about until much later. I think for me, it’s more about recognizing, like, grieving what could have been, if that makes sense. And I know I, you know, was on your website and and I know that you’re an advocate for, like, grief is more than you know, the death of a loved one. Right? Grief is bigger than that. There are all sorts of things and circumstances that we grieve. And so, you know, one thing for instance that I grieve recently was, well, I didn’t have typical sisterly relationship with Gina. Like, I didn’t have that. And my older sister was six years older, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but, like, oldest versus youngest, it was just like there was a big gap there. And so Gina was, you know, the closest sister to me age wise, and I really recently grieved that loss of what could have been, what what would it have been like to have had you know, quote unquote, normal sisterly relationship with her. And that that has been more on my mind lately of like, what would that have been like? Would that have, you know, would we have gotten along? Would we have thought? Would we have, you know, I have no idea. Would we have shared secrets?
Would we have, you know, talked about boys? Would you know, I don’t know. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk: What do you think has been the greatest impact for you with this grief and this loss in particular?
Erin Whalen: I think for me, I had not heard the word anticipatory grief until a friend mentioned it to me maybe a year and a half ago. I lived it for forty years and I never had language for it. And so I think the gift is one of the gifts. There are so many. But one of them is, like, now I can say, oh my gosh. And I, like, talk about anticipatory grief all the time. No. I can’t stop talking about it. Because I finally have language for this figure if someone dying, if anyone dying, still have that. Like, I I’m always afraid my husband is gonna die, like, every day. Every day. I’m, like, planning as funeral. It’s ridiculous. This feeling of dread every time I would say goodbye to Gina was, like, oh my gosh. This is the last time. Like, all of these experiences in this, like, just cloud that was just my normal. It was just my absolute normal. It was the family I was born into you know, by the time I was born, Gina had been diagnosed. She was clearly not reaching milestones that I would soon reach. And so for me, it’s there are so many people out there. If I didn’t have language for it and I lived it for forty years, there are so many people who are probably asking if they’re like, if there’s something wrong with them, if they’re going crazy. And I can tell them no. Like, you’re there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not going crazy. Yes. It’s okay to feel relief when someone dies after a very long illness. Yes. It’s okay if you don’t cry a lot after they die. Like, that was my experience. I spent a long time thinking I was broken because my grief after Gina died was so seemingly minuscule. And so now the gift is I can tell people, like, wait, wait, there’s this thing that you probably don’t know about and you might be experiencing it and you’re not broken.
Victoria Volk: I love the belief and I’ve I’ve shared this a lot in previous episodes and things. I think the language or the word can be helpful in understanding. But to me, grief is grief.
Erin Whalen: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And grief is normal and natural in whatever shape or form it takes. And I’m curious. Yeah. Because we were talking about the language. And ironically, you talk you teach communication in the genre of end of life. So I’m curious if growing up if grief was openly talked about and Gina’s imminent death and all of those things.
Erin Whalen: It was not it was not
Victoria Volk: do you think that’s kind of where this mission was born in some respects?
Erin Whalen: I mean, possibly possibly I mean, my parents did the best they could. Right? I mean, I can’t imagine. Four kids in six years, one of them severely disabled. I can’t imagine. And so, you know, there’s no blame or regret there. There’s none of that. There’s not a sense of righteousness of like, I’m gonna fix this. I’m gonna go out there and tell people what I didn’t know. I’m a firm believer that people really do the best that they can at the time. And so it it was it was born of a time when I was, like, journaling and and, like, as far as my company goes and and where I wanted to take it, I was praying and journaling. And as I was journaling and I was kind of pinpointing different moments in my life or different jobs that really felt like the right kind of fit, different volunteer opportunities, just different things from my life. And when I looked at the ones that were most resonant, it they really had to do a lot with, like, grief and death. And so that’s where the the goal of working with end of life workers, grief workers came from. And then I recently expanded it to do more to to grievers and and to continue to work with people who are in the profession. But to grievers themselves and to teams who may be trying to prep process loss or trying trying to process grief, there’s some big movements to really look at how we handle grief in the workplace and so kind of broadening that scope. But it really did have its root in that prayer time, journaling time, and looking at the things in my life, and the moments, and the relationships. And of course, you know, Gina was in there. And it just felt I don’t think I was put I think the pieces like like the puzzle’s there, but the pieces go in slowly. And I’m sure there are other revelations I’ll have later. But at the time, I wouldn’t have been able to say, like, oh, clearly, this is in response to the situation of growing up with a severely disabled sister. But now, of course, it is. Like, of like, I’m looking at you know, like, his deposit gets more and more complete. You’re like, oh, of course, that’s a cat. Like, it didn’t look like a cat until three minutes ago, but, like, that’s of course, that’s a cat. So, like, of course, it’s all connected to Gina and the communication skills. I had a friend point out to me recently, which I had not made the connection. That’s the other thing is that, like, when it’s your own puzzle, it’s like a puzzle of your own life. Like, you really need help, like, seeing the piece. This because you’re like, I mean, it just all looks like clouds to me.
Victoria Volk: Like, I don’t know I don’t know
Erin Whalen: what I’m looking at. But someone else can come in and be like, okay. Can you see over here? Like, this this cloud looks like a cat and this one looks like a frog and it’s like, oh, I had I had no idea. But I had a friend say to me or help me realize that because Gina was essentially nonverbal, we had to be able to interpret her noises, the sound she would make. And I had not pieced that together that, like, I was getting a Ph. D. In nonverbal communication, and I had no idea. All those years, I had no idea. And I didn’t realize that until very recently, a friend pointed that out to me. And I’m like, Dah, you’re right. And so this this concept of communication skills is really strikingly because of Gina, although I never, which is it seems ironic. It’s like my nonverbal sister is a huge reason why I’m in communication skills work today, but it makes all the sense in the world.
Victoria Volk: And I think one of the lessons that one would get out of that is learning how to be present and attuned to the cues from someone else and the environment to become more sensitive to those things. And I think nature is constantly giving us cues. And nonverbal communication. Right? You have a dog. My dog looks at me. And I can tell he needs to go outside. He doesn’t have to bark or he doesn’t have to growl or he doesn’t have to do anything. He just gives me this look. It’s like this ES key, you know, that you develop this connection. It’s the connection that you intentionally put effort to that helps you draw those conclusions. Oh, this is what you need. This is what you meant. It’s no different than infants or children. They can cry. Right? They cry. That’s the only thing they have is to cry. When they need something. That’s how they communicate. Well, what if they can’t cry? What if they’re nonverbal. Right? They adapt. They adapt. I think we naturally adapt when something about us isn’t functioning optimally. We adapt. And so I really think it has helped you become hyper focused on nonverbal cues of other people and body language and and all of that. I grew up in an environment of chaos. And so me, it was always anticipating the next so tone of voice. And Mhmm. I mean, that’s huge for me. Ton of voice, and it’s not what you say, it’s how you say it. Feeling the energy of someone’s physical body seeing that, you know, like almost have an x-ray vision. I can tell what they’re thinking just based on their body language. So that is I’m highly attuned to that. I think these are skills that we are born that we’ve not born into, but well, we’re born into our families. Correct? But the environment in which we are in is so paramount. In influencing to who we become. And I think we underestimate that. Yeah. And we don’t connect the dots either for ourselves. It’s like you were describing. It’s like you can’t see the, like, one of my friends does it all the time. You can’t see the label from inside the jar. It’s totally true. This is where grief support is imperative because it’s really difficult to to often connect those dots for ourselves.
Erin Whalen: Exactly. That’s exactly it. Yeah. And kudos to you for recognizing that, like, based on your family upbringing and dynamic, and so that’s made you hyper aware of people’s energy and tone of voice and things like that. And so and you have this steady, smooth, like, soothing tone of voice and
Victoria Volk: So people tell me all the time.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. It’s just so calming, and so I’m sure that the greeters you support and everyone who listens to your podcast appreciate that that very soothing tone.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’s something too that I started creating meditations because I kept hearing that. So it’s like, again, like, our environment, the people that are in their lives, they’re we’re constantly getting cues and information, and I think becoming a tune to that is really how you develop your intuition and and listening to those messages that we receive. Would you have considered yourself an intuitive child?
Erin Whalen: I think looking back, I can say yes, but I don’t know if at the time I was, like aware of it, there was one really interesting situation in high school that I was like, oh, that was weird. Like, that was something that and I’m I’m a Christian. Like, I I have a very strong belief in an afterlife and connection with those who have died and there was one very interesting experience that I was like, not not everyone had that experience. Like, that was weird. So besides that one moment, I don’t think I would have recognized myself at the time as intuitive, but looking back, I say, absolutely, I was.
Victoria Volk: What you do is so helpful in people, I think in the process of probably working with you developing that connection for themselves because in learning how to be an open flow of communication with another person, you’re gonna start receiving these intuitive knowings or these hits or these mails, you know, information in your mail slot. Like, what to say next? How to say it? What do they need to hear? And again, that doesn’t come natural. And so thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. I think it’s amazing. I think it’s nichey, and I love it. And, yeah, very much needed.
Erin Whalen: Thank you. Thank you for the work you do because like I said, most of the world looks at people who work in hospice are as end of life do less and say like, nah, like that’s not for me. And so we need you. Like, we need all the people who feel that calling to live that calling out because it’s a beautiful calling and most of the world is not called to it.
Victoria Volk: Well, my confession is is that I haven’t been doing that work. Yet because I haven’t figured out what that looks like for me. That’s fine. Yeah. I got the training because I knew that it was something that I wanted. Yeah. I watched my father pass cancer very prevalent in my family. And I didn’t actually, I wasn’t with him when he passed, but I wanted to be. Right? And wish I could have been and all of those things. But I watched his slow decline over years. But it taught me that when we have a knowing that we are going to pass, which it’s a blessing and a curse. I think it’s you can choose how you wanna exit, and how many people not everybody gets that opportunity. I see it as an opportunity. Yes. Really weird opportunity, but totally knowing what I know now is I can choose who I want to visit. Me or who I don’t want to come visit me. I can choose if I want my body washed by my loved ones or not. I can choose how I want the environment to be. I can choose where I want to be. I can I can I have choice and say And that’s a sense of agency that not everybody gets? And so I think that’s the blessing in knowing when it’s coming or not when it’s coming, but that it’s eminent. Right? Yes. And I think the hardest part for loved ones. And those who are find themselves in that situation is the acceptance that it is coming, that it is going to happen. There is nothing that you can do about it. And I think we waste a lot of time, precious time wrapped up in the details, the bills, the mundane communications of day to day life, which need to happen, of course, Yeah. Logistics and all of that. Those conversations need to happen. But how about the deeper conversations saying what you need to say, addressing the communications that have gone undelivered over the years? Yeah. All those things. Anything you wanna share on that? What you’ve learned about end of life through your personal experience and through working with those in the industry and things like that? What have you have found? Like, that’s been the most, like, I did not ever realize or think of it this way.
Erin Whalen: Well, one of my favorite concepts of people who now granted we know like a lot of lives and tragically or abruptly. And so we’re not talking about that, but we’re talking about people who maybe have a terminal illness and they know that death is imminent. And there is more choice in agency. And I love. I heard one chaplain call it a welcoming committee. Like, people who are dying will see loved ones who have already died and just the stories of, like, the the way that they see that whether it’s like they’re in the room or they’re like, across a river. Maybe it’s Jesus himself has come to get you. And, like, I just I love that concept so much. I remember one time I attended a training, it was like a two day intensive training. I was in the midst of mostly clinical people. It was clinicians who were either oncologists or hospice nurses, and then there were, like, social workers, and then there were chaplains. And I was, like, I’m a non clinician. I am not certified in any of these fields. And it was such an amazing training. And so, like, it was that two day training. And I’m surrounded by people who are, like, doing incredible end of life work and then watching this webinar from the chaplain who talked about the welcoming committee. I had this huge heart and I couldn’t wait to come home and tell my husband, and I’m like, John, that’s my husband. I was like, I want Gina to be the president of my welcoming committee when I’m going to die. And I was just like beaming and he’s like, are you okay? And I’m like, yes. I’m like, it’s gonna be amazing. Like, she because I don’t know what her voice sounds like. You know? Like, it’s gonna be just so special to, like, hear her call my name and be like, Erin, it’s time. Like, I’m ready for you. I’ve been preparing this little cottage for you. Let’s it’s right next to my cottage. Like, let’s go. So that that has been the coolest thing to me when I’ve been learning from people who do this work or doing my own research in what’s the final chapter is, like, I just think that is so cool.
Victoria Volk: Headful body chills as you were describing that. So it sounds like truth to my body. Yeah. And I think so many people who are witnessing the dying process, it can be very scary. And I think it’s those people that can have the opportunity to bridge that gap of information and knowledge that you know, they can pass on to family that’s it’s normal and it’s natural and, you know, it’s normal and natural to not drink for maybe days. You know, people are trying to force water and but it’s normal and natural or they call it picking. It’s
Erin Whalen: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Oh, and they’re trying to, like, touch the theory. You know, I’ve there’s a gentleman that was on my podcast, Chris Kerr. He he’s written a book. Death is but a dream. He was on the Netflix series, the documentary.
What was now it’s surviving death,
Erin Whalen: actually, is what it’s called. Okay. So he was
Victoria Volk: on my podcast, but he talked about that. Like, people so many people think that people are hope hallucinating. And that can seem scary. Like, oh, they’re seeing people and that’s normal and natural. Yeah. It’s the welcoming committee. You know? Right. I
Erin Whalen: think they’re reaching out to,
Victoria Volk: you know, that is a natural part of the process. And Yeah. It’s a beautiful thing.
Erin Whalen: It is. I think too, the communication of like you said, like, you’ve gotta have people who can bridge that gap and, like, doing it in a way that’s so loving and so I can see you’re gonna be such so amazing at the bedside because you have such this calm, soothing way and you’re so intuitive about people’s emotions. And so recognizing, like, this is most people don’t know, right, about these things. Like, I’m still learning. Like, most people don’t know the natural process of dying. And so it’s scary if you don’t know what’s coming and what’s happening and it’s doubly scary if it’s your loved one. Right? And so there’s just so much fear there. And so you have to find a way to communicate while taking their their emotions into consideration. Right? And how do you do that? And how do you how do you lovingly let them know that this is normal? And And how do you, you know, how do you hold space for their reactions of, like, if they’re putting it two and two together and they’re realizing, if this is normal, this is normal dying, then we’re getting closer to death. Like, that’s that’s a hard that’s a hard thing to accept. And so I just know you’re gonna be so wonderful with the families and with those who are dying and you’ll just be such a hand holder.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for that. I think one of the things people too don’t realize is that you can be in hospice care before you are that close. Like, I think it’s a yearly assessment. Right? Like, I think it’s a year I don’t know. It might be different state to state. But from my understanding is once you can get in, it’s like a yearly assessment. But, yeah, you can be in hospice care for years.
Erin Whalen: Nurse so many benefits.
Victoria Volk: And that doesn’t mean, like, people equate to hospices, their oh, their end of life, they’re dying. Right. But it it doesn’t have to be and that’s what I hear so often too. Most people end up dying actually in the hospital.
Erin Whalen: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: With your illness. Because they did not realize that hospice care was an option long before.
Erin Whalen: I know. Or didn’t they
Victoria Volk: accept that that was a possibility?
Erin Whalen: Right. Yeah. Oh, the whole conversation about hospice has to change. Right? Because it is it is it does have this reputation in the world for people who don’t know. There’s just a lot of fear and confusion. And then what happens is people delay entering, and then that that truth, it becomes truth, because then it is just for the last two weeks of life, because people, I think, physicians might delay the recommendation because I think from a physician standpoint, you know, you’re taught to diagnose and treat and heal. And if you’re at the point where you know that you cannot fix this, that’s hard to admit. And so I think that doctors might also need to be making referrals sooner, you know. And how do they come to terms with, this is what’s actually best for my patient, is for them to be entering hospice. This is the continuum of care. This is not us giving up on them. This is the continuing of care. There’s so many analogies to, like, birth and death. And, you know, it’s it’s just part of the process. Like, birth is part of the process of your life. Death is part of the process of your life. And I do hope that, you know, there’s more grace for everyone involved, for the referring physician, for the family who hears it, for the hospice team who, you know, onboards them, brings them to the to end at the world of hospice that, you know, there’s grace and space for all of it to be as long as it needs to be.
Victoria Volk: I think one of the most difficult things I think in the work that you know, caregivers or people that work in end of life care and things like that, that what we’re discussing today is the ability to be honest and transparent. And that’s the physicians. It’s the caregivers. It’s the caretakers. It’s the those who are dying. It’s I think until we become honest and transparent, then the communication can really flow naturally, I think. But I think as long as people are holding back and they’re not saying the truth or speaking the truth, I think that that can I don’t know? I think that that shit that changes how you communicate. I think you communicate very differently if you’re being honest and transparent. Totally. And if you’re in denial or skirting the truth or wanting to people, please? Or Fear. Right? I think a lot of it’s fair. It comes down to fear.
Erin Whalen: Absolutely. And, you know, Bernie Brown says clear is kind. Right? It’s actually a kindness to people to be clear. And I mean, so much of what you’re gonna be doing, what hospice professionals do what physicians who are referring their patient to hospice, it’s all breaking bad news. Right? And there’s a process for how to break bad news to someone. It may not seem bad news to this person, but to the person who’s having the conversation because they do it all the time. But for this family, for this person, for this patient, it’s it will forever be etched in their memory. And so there’s a way to do it in a loving way that is clear. I’ve worked with medical students on how to break bad news, and it’s really hard for them. They’re either too direct, too talkative, giving false hope, not allowing for pauses, space, not allowing for emotions, for emotional responses, where there’s this beat around the bush, wave doing it that’s like, you know, a patient knows they’re there for something. Like, they they deserve to hear the truth. That there’s a way to do it that’s that’s gentle and clear.
Victoria Volk: That is a great segue too. What are some tips in communication that you would provide? For those you work with, and also for grovers who themselves are trying to communicate what they’re feeling or to those receiving the information in responding. That’s really mixed bag of questions.
Erin Whalen: So I love it. I love it. Because there’s communication for every Yes. People you named. Right? It’s all because anytime it’s two or more people work there’s communication, whether you like it or not. Okay.
Victoria Volk: I guess that’s the first I guess that’s the first tip, right, is to recognize who your audience is. Mhmm. Yeah. Who are you speaking to?
Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. I think one of my favorite tips has to do with what I call heart moments and head moments. Mhmm. And a heart moment is anytime someone is expressing an emotion, a feeling. And a head moment is more at logic, data information. Even if the information is good, that’s that’s a head moment. And the point is you have to be aware of where the other person is If someone’s in a heart moment, you cannot you cannot come in with your own head moment. You have to meet them with their heart first, and to give empathy, and to connect with them because and doctor I think his name is Daniel Siegal. I think I got his name right. He’s a pediatrician, and he talks about flipping the lid because the brain is like my thumb is the amygdala, and then this is the prefrontal cortex. And so when people are having a strong emotional response, they have literally flipped the lid And this, like, decision making logical brain is, like, temporarily gone. And this, like, everything’s on fire. I’m gonna get eaten by a saber tooth tiger. Part of your brain is the one that’s responding. And so that’s not the time to say, like, this is normal, this is a normal process of death, or studies show that, you know, eighty two percent of people who take the chemo ready a patient that we’re offering, we’ll see success with it. Like, that’s not the time for that. Like, if the lid has been flipped, you need to empathize with them, you need to name their emotion, and you say you seem really scared right now. Wow, that was a lot. Tell me what’s going on.
I noticed a shift. I noticed that you furrowed your brow. Can you tell me what you’re thinking? Like, those are ways to to meet someone in their head moment. And then slowly they’ll calm down. And then you can then you can have talk about the information and stuff. So that’s one of my favorite tips for communication is heart moments and head moments, and you you cannot You cannot come in with a head moment if someone else is in a hard moment. You just can’t. It’s not gonna go well. You’re gonna waste a lot of time. I
Victoria Volk: love that.
Erin Whalen: Right? It’s fun.
Victoria Volk: What’s fascinating to me about that is that infants naturally do this. Right. Impletes naturally mirror back to us. Yes. You know, you go like this.
You know, children will they’ll do that. Impletes will do that or you know, milk, you know, sign language milk. They they learn to mirror that. Yeah. You know, if you’re happy, a baby is gonna, you know The tone of voice, they mirror infants naturally mirror back us. And I think we just lose that with our our mind. Right? Yeah. They’re they’re in their heart all the time. You know?
I feel like, you know.
Erin Whalen: So that is so true. That is so true. Yeah. It says mirror neurons. Right?
It’s like, It’s just so normal. It’s it’s how they learn empathy. That’s how they learn nonverbal communication. That’s how they learn emotions. Right? And how they learn connection. Yeah. You’re right. We we end up losing it.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So be a baby, be a mirror,
Erin Whalen: be a baby. That’s what it boils down to. That’s even like a baby. Yeah. Being like a baby. You you had some other categories of people? Should we should we talk? Oh, yeah. Sure. Go ahead
Victoria Volk: and steps. Yes.
Erin Whalen: I know you said the grievers. Right? I think I mean, it’s such
Victoria Volk: a great one too, though. That’s still the same.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. It’s you’re right. You’re right. It’s hard because you don’t wanna put the burden on the grievers. I mean, like, okay, grievers. Like, this is what you need to do. It’s like, grievers shouldn’t have to do anything. And yet, I think a good tip for grievers is to have just, like, a couple things in their pocket to pull out when they need it. Right? Like, if it’s something you can’t get out of and you know there’s gonna be a nosy nos, nos person there or a chatty cafe, like, just have a pull out phrase that you can use at any time. I’m gonna go get some punch. It can literally be that. It can be like a total diversion. It can be a total, like, like, I’m I’m not comfortable talking about that right now. Or I’m fine. Thank you. Like, even if you’re not fine, like, if it’s chatty, Kathy, in the nose or nosey, then you can just be like, I’m fine. Thank you. Like, you can just have something to say. To a person that you don’t feel like opening up to and that is okay.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And I think people yeah. I think people you can’t expect here’s the deal. Like, don’t even approach the griever. If you have never had a heart to heart with this person or you have never you don’t even have to say anything elaborate. Right? Just unless you actually mean it, I’m here for you. Don’t say it.
Erin Whalen: You know,
Victoria Volk: it’s People can recognize and sniff BS out. Like, most people, especially at Grieber, like, they’re gonna hear it over and over and over.
Erin Whalen: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Don’t be us then. I mean, that’s what I would say. Like, say what you mean and mean what you say. Can and and say it with compassion.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. I think that’s good. I think that’s really good. I have a friend, she’s a grief coach, and she loves to say, you know, if it’s if it’s someone you’re you’re close to, and it’s a a grieber who’s lost someone recently. Just very specific, like, I’m bringing dinner tomorrow night.
Will you will you be home at six so I can leave it on your doorstep? You know? Or, like, as specific as possible.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And even leaving it on the doorstep, it releases the expectation that, okay, I guess, I’m gonna have to, like, put on some clothes Right. Brush my hair. I know. Right? Do I have to see you?
Erin Whalen: I mean, I don’t
Victoria Volk: really wanna see you. So yeah. If you release that pressure expectation that I actually have to open the door and have a conversation Yeah. I love that.
Erin Whalen: Right.
Victoria Volk: Because I can see myself, like, yeah, just leave it on the door so I don’t have to feel obligated to Right. Now Engage.
Erin Whalen: No obligation needed. I mean, just like when, you know, standard practice, at least that I’ve seen, when someone has a baby, right, and you put together the meal plan, for the, you know, the meal drop off thing, the food train. Like, generally speaking, it’s not the mom you’re, like, texting with. It’s like, you know, we set it all up so that the mom isn’t the one who has to do the logistics of the receiving of the food. Right? Because they’re busy. Like, they’re busy healing and nursing. That’s what they’re doing. That’s their job. And, like, hubby can be the one to get the text that says, you know, dinners on the doorstep or whatever, you know, or maybe moms in town. Mom can be the one. Like, give give them mom’s number, but, like, don’t don’t put the onus on the on the person who’s grieving the most. What’s the poor and dump out? Right? Like, let’s all pour into that person and let’s let’s dump out the other way.
Victoria Volk: I think another key amazing phrase for people to hear who are going through something challenging is, you know, when you’re considering doing something, you know, at the end asking, is that okay? Because it might not be okay with that person.
Erin Whalen: Right?
Victoria Volk: And that gives them the autonomy to choose as well and the sense sense of agency to choose. Yeah. No. I appreciate it, but not right now. Thank you.
It gives them an opportunity to to accept or not accept. Mhmm. Oh, and I think because what can happen in situations like that too, right? Like, everybody can pour in all at once. And then two weeks later, it’s like dead silent.
Erin Whalen: Right. You have, like, thirteen hundred bagels from Panera in your house, and then, you know, twelve hundred of them go bad, and then there’s nothing and there’s crickets.
Victoria Volk: So as a grieber, I could be like, you know what? I’m I’m good for now. Thank you, but you guys ask me again in three weeks.
Erin Whalen: Mhmm. Right? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: It’s as a grieber than you’re communicating what you need. Yeah. It gives you an opportunity to communicate your needs rather than someone pushing something on you and you feeling guilty to accept, right, or feeling pressure to accept, that might not be what you need at that moment. So I think is that okay? Is a great question to ask at the end of anything you’re proposing to do or, you know, any action you’re thinking about taking, I guess?
Erin Whalen: I love that too. I love that. From a communication standpoint, you know, we talk about open ended questions versus closed ended questions.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Erin Whalen: And generally, like, when you want the conversation to flow. Like, you do an excellent job as a podcast host. Right? You’re asking open ended questions. Right?
Victoria Volk: I’m a questioner. I’m naturally a questioner. I’m over short of questions.
Erin Whalen: But you’re very good at it. Right? It comes naturally to you.
Victoria Volk: Yes.
Erin Whalen: And but open ended questions cannot be answered with yes or no. They require
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Erin Whalen: They require some sort of explanation. While closed ended questions, are perfect for this situation, which is why you said, is that okay with you? They can say yes or no. They don’t have to come up with a thing. Right? Anytime we can relieve the burden of the grieber coming up with a thing, then that’s better in my opinion. Yeah. So exactly as you said, like, I’m planning on, you know, bringing over a a banana bread. For tomorrow? Is that okay? I can drop it on your doorstep. Is that okay? Yes or no? Versus, I would love to bring you a breakfast. Please tell me what you would like.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Erin Whalen: Like, that’s just like, I don’t know what I would like.
Victoria Volk: Well, and then you’re like, again, like, I’m gonna have to engage with this person. Right? Might not be hungry tomorrow. Right. I really don’t eat breakfast.
Well, then I’m gonna have to say no. And then they’re gonna feel like, well, I tried to do this thing and she said no. And then telling her friends, well, she doesn’t want my help. You know what I mean when that creates? Look at how that can snowball.
Snowball.
Erin Whalen: Yes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: This is why relationships with grovers can fall apart and fade to the background because of miscommunication and not reading the room
Erin Whalen: Right. And
Victoria Volk: not anticipating the next, like, play that scenario out to the end. Like, and if it were me, if it were me, would I want ten people out telling me I, you know, they’re gonna bring me breakfast and to tell me what they want and probably not. So maybe I shouldn’t be asking this person the same thing. Right?
Erin Whalen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So this is why I think it’s so excellent what you do because it’s so needed.
Erin Whalen: Thank you. Yeah. It is it is important. It is important because it’s it’s also like we’re all grievers. Right? I mean, whether you’ve had a significant loss in your life yet or not, you will. And, you know, we’re all grieving all sorts of things. It doesn’t have to be deaf. And so, like, we all just have to tap into that. Like you said, like, put yourself in their shoes. Would I, if this was me, if my loved one had just died and would I wanna be doing this? Would I want people saying this to me? Would I want them doing this? No. I would not. And, like, you also have to find there are so many resources out there too. Right? Like, there are so many wonderful ways to find this information. Unlike, how how do I communicate with creepers? Like, what is a good idea of something to say and not to say? Like, LinkedIn has it all. Just search it up. Probably Instagram and TikTok too. But, you know, the the information is out there. It’s out there. It’s just a matter of of having the wherewithal to say, gosh, this is gonna be a delicate conversation. How do I want to handle it? How do I want to approach this person? And I’ve made mistakes, and I feel I don’t know if you feel this, Victoria, but I feel extra pressure. I mean, it’s silly. It’s like, oh poor me. I feel extra pressure to, like, be a great support person when it’s some you know, when I know someone. But I do. Like, I do feel an extra layer of, like, I gotta I really gotta nail this. Like, I really gotta and it’s silly. Like, I don’t, like, I don’t have to do it right. I’m a human being. Making an effort is better than not making an effort. Right? Like trying is better than not trying as long as you’re not a total jerk. Even something like and I love this. I love the like I I don’t know what to say. Right? Like, if you’re approaching a grieber and you don’t know what to say, like, say, like, I’m I wish I knew what to say right now. You know?
Victoria Volk: I’ve said that. I’ve said there are no words. Rapping you in the biggest hug.
Erin Whalen: Right?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Erin Whalen: Because, like, I mean, we can’t like, empathy can only go so far. Like, you’d only put yourself in someone’s shoes so far. Like, we can’t really know what it’s like because everyone’s relationship is complicated and different and complex and, you know, we don’t know. We don’t know. And you know, like, we’re both moms. Like, I can’t imagine if something happened to my child. Right? Like, I can’t imagine that. And, like, I can try and imagine, but I can’t really know what it’s like unless it happened to me. And so, another one of those Yeah. Like, there are no words. Like, I I don’t know what to say.
Victoria Volk: That’s one of the things I’ve actually heard Grieber say is Mhmm. People say all the time, I can’t imagine. You know what? I want you to imagine. I want you to imagine.
I want you to know what this feels like. I want you to know what this pain feels like so that you know what it feels like. I’ve heard Grievers say that.
Erin Whalen: Thank you for that.
Victoria Volk: It’s sometimes people really do want you to know what it feels like because you can’t understand it until you feel it. And it’s not wishing it on other people. But it that’s why it’s so can feel so isolating. That why grief can feel so isolating.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. It’s it’s like I’m going back to Bernae Brown. I don’t know if you’ve seen the video of empathy with her and it’s like this like creature in a hole, it’s like the person up here, like, hey, that’s a lot down there. It’s like none of that really helps until this creature comes down, like, and sits with that other person, like, in the hole. Like, that’s empathy is to, like, go and, like, sit with them in the in the yuck.
Victoria Volk: One of the things I say is people can’t sit with we can only sit with others to the extent that we’ve sat with ourselves.
Erin Whalen: That’s deep.
Victoria Volk: That’s I mean, that was something I, in my hindsight and reflection, have figured out for myself. Like, because the me before the work that I’ve personally done on myself and the information and knowledge and tools that I’ve gained, the me before my grief, awareness, really, did not have the capacity. To do that. And but I thought I did. Right? I thought I could like, I was the one that people everybody came to, people I knew came to, and they needed a shoulder lean on. I was spreading myself thin. I was a people pleaser. I thought I could save the world. And when I couldn’t, it was a reflection of me and my worth, and I turned it on myself, like, I’m a victim, or when circumstances would happen to me, you’d be like, I was a victim. I couldn’t see the forest through the trees. Right? I I could not recognize I didn’t have the hope. I didn’t have the tools and the knowledge and the awareness to see beyond where I was at at the moment, but you work through that and you clean up that and you do the work of looking at the past really because people don’t want to, but it’s very important for our healing to connect the dots for ourselves. This is why in interviews like this one, I we rewind the clock.
We look at the past like how was grief talked about when you were growing up. It’s influencing how you look at grief today.
Erin Whalen: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know, and how the behaviors that you used to cope with grief, how did you cope as a child, how are you coping now? What connections are there? Because there are connections. I could go on my soapbox all a long day on this, but this is why I feel like, yes, our parents do what what they can with what they know. At the time. But this is why I get on my soapbox with parents today or caregivers. There’s just individuals who are grieving today is that the work that you do on yourself has a ripple effect. This is how we change society is on a collective. As individuals, we sweep our own doorstep.
Erin Whalen: Yeah. I cannot agree more.
Victoria Volk: But I wanna know if there is any other tips that you have that are they I’ve loved this conversation. We’ve talked about stuff on this podcast today that I don’t think I’ve ever we’ve ever I’ve ever had a conversation about certain aspects with anybody else. So this has been I’ve enjoyed this very much. So if there’s anything else you would like to share on tips or anything like that that you don’t feel you got to, please share.
Erin Whalen: And the other tips are things I didn’t get to. I think what what I wanna say is what what you just said, like awareness is the first step. It’s the first step in so many things. Right? It’s the first step in grief. Really to be aware about, you know, whether it’s how I’m feeling physically in my body? Like, what is the sensation that’s happening right now? Is that grief? What is happening? Right? Like, it might Am I hunch? Am I tight? Am I am I sore? Am I sick to my stomach? Like, what is happening? Awareness is key. And then awareness for communication. Right? Like, we have to be aware of how we are how we come across, which is not easy. That’s why I bring I I’m a professional role player, and then I bring professional role players with me so that how often do we get to practice having these hard conversations and get the feedback at the insight from the person that you’re talking to? Never. Right? Not unless after we hit record, after you stop recording, you know, Victoria, you and I, like, okay. When I said this, I felt as though I was, you know, interrupting you a lot. Did you notice that? Or how did I come across on that piece when we were talking about x y z? Right? Like, unless we literally did that, you don’t get that opportunity. And so being aware whether it’s asking a dear close honest friend how you come across, we’re getting some practice in, in a safe space where you can get that insight. I worked at an assisted living home. I worked with the residents who had dementia years ago. And it was a hard job because, you know, people who have dementia like they they run on their own everything. Like, it’s just they do whatever they want, whenever they want, and they’re a hoot, and I loved them, and it was a hard job. And I ran their activities. So it was like, wow. It was so fun, and it was so hard. I would come in every morning. And I would and there was no, like, office. Right? You’re just, like, in this, like, walk through space that I shared with my boss I would just put my stuff down and I would just like start going. And then one day, my boss said to me, you never say good morning, and I was shocked. And I was, like, crushed. I was, like, oh my gosh. I was just, like, trying to take this job. Like, I didn’t say this out loud, but internalizing everything. I was, like, I’m just trying to take this job so seriously and just, like, get to work right away and, like, who needs this, who needs that? Like, I’m here, I’m ready to go. Right? But it shaped me because I was like, I was a horrible communicator back then. I wasn’t even been wording. Right? I was coming in. I had no awareness. And so even for someone who does this for a living, I still need people to tell me okay, your tone was a little condescending there. Or you know what? You tried to empathize with me, but it came across like a robot because that’s what you do for a living. You know, like, I I still need people to tell me that kind of stuff. So I think just awareness and find a trusted honest friend or come work with me because, you know, we can help you. We can gently offer you insight on how you’re coming across and how you can how you can change. It’s all changeable.
It’s all This
Victoria Volk: would be, like, workshops for parents, workshops for teens who feel like, you know, what teen doesn’t feel like they’re heard sometimes. I’m sure my even my own kids. Right? Like
Erin Whalen: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I yeah. This could be the communication is, you know, what do they say expectations or planned disappointments? And I think a lot of expectations can be nipped in the bud or curved with our communication? Tally. Even text, as you were talking in I actually worked in a nursing home too, and there we had a dementia ward too. But even with text messages, like, you sharing that story made me think of how I’ve become consciously aware of when I’m texting people, not just going right into the question or the statement or whatever. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, like the salutation. Right?
Erin Whalen: Right.
Victoria Volk: We do that in emails. Hello? Yeah. Why does it not come natural when we’re, you know, meet somebody or see somebody in or, like, that’s what I think where the texting is really we can really come off and be interpreted. Not with how we intend.
Right?
Erin Whalen: Exactly.
Victoria Volk: I think we have to be extra even more thoughtful in our texting.
Erin Whalen: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: Because there aren’t those verbal cues. There aren’t those Right. Physical cues. Right?
Erin Whalen: Right? But there’s emojis. So
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And this brings with a good question. Like, Giving bad news over text. This is something I’ve heard more and more about, like people hearing about someone who died in the family through text.
Or Facebook message or it’s like, what do you have to say in that?
Erin Whalen: You just say that’s not best practice.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Don’t do that.
Erin Whalen: That’s, you know, I mean, my parents when Gina died because I was living far away from my family of origin at the time when she died. And my mom sent me a text that said, can you please call home? And I was at work. Right? So I stepped out and I called home. Right? Which I made sense to me. If she had called me and I’m in the middle of, like, you know, text, can you please call home? Which I knew? As soon as I saw it, I was like, okay. Like, it’s it’s time. But yeah. No. Let’s not deliver bad then use over text or email or Facebook message. Let’s let’s just not do that. Let’s not do that. Let’s not do that. I mean, even even some, you know, medical professionals have to I’ve heard them breaking bad news over, you know, the patient portal or whatever. And it’s like, oh, cool. Like, let’s not do that. Let’s not do that. Or even if phone call is not, I mean, a phone call for a medical professional. Like, if you can come in and deliver that news in person. Right? But, like, clearly, if someone has died and you need to communicate that and they’re not, you know, you you need to pick up the phone and call them.
Right?
Victoria Volk: That’s a great point too at the portal thing because I think so many I mean, people who have been diagnosed with terminal illness and stuff, I mean, especially in the last five years or so, the client, the patient portal, it even says, like, you might see something in this that you might read something before your doctor even has an opportunity to share with you. Like, you it’s almost you have to acknowledge that that’s a possibility. Yes. But I think our curiosity gets the best of us and it’s like who I wanna know, but it’s like, do you really wanna know this way?
Erin Whalen: I know. I know. Yeah. Oh, it’s it’s I mean, with all the tech, right, there are the now are these extra challenges of, like, okay, how do we do this compassionately? How do we communicate on this using this modality compassionately.
It can be done, but there are certain I agree there are certain things, you know, let’s not let’s not send a text to say someone died.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And even how do you do that company wide too? Like, again, organizations and
Erin Whalen: Yeah. It’s tricky. And, of course, there’s gonna be mistakes. Like, I think that if we allow ourselves the grace to, like, really do our best. Like, we all need to educate ourselves as first and foremost. Right? We all need to be aware, educate ourselves. But know that, like, something is better than nothing, you know, for the most part. Unless you’re a total jerk. But, like, an attempt is usually better than a non attempt because I think that the isolation that can happen and the gaslighting that can happen and the, like, wait. We can’t talk about this. Like, that’s the message that’s happening if it’s just not addressed.
Victoria Volk: And that’s, I think, with companies within companies and organizations, I think, that’s the mental health aspect of being human. And I think that’s definitely shifting and becoming more of a conversation. But it’s something really that people organizations and companies just didn’t even touch before. And I think COVID kinda helped propel that. But, you know, mental health, I can even I have a day job and even in my own company that I work with. They had a breakout, a session on mental health, and you know, a had a certified or trained first aid mental health first aid person come in, which I’m also trained in that as well. But I think the more like anything. Right? The more you talk it out, the more you communicate, it’s it’s gonna be better than not at all and and you can learn from it that way. As long as you’re learning from it Yes. Do better next time. You can do it bet you can always do better next time.
Erin Whalen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what would you say you know, one of the questions I often ask people is how would you describe yourself the for, the loss versus after? But because this has been an experience for you that has been all your life, I’ll just ask what his grief, your grief taught you.
Erin Whalen: So many things. So many things, I’ve actually used that exact prompt before. For a program I do where we have people share and then a musician plays some music for them based on what they shared. What has grief? My grief taught me so many things. What is present for me right now? What’s the quote? Tread lightly everyone’s carrying a heavy burden? Right. Like, I think it’s really that.
I think it’s that, like, we’re all navigating some kind of loss. And I think the, you know, the more I can do to to heal and to learn and to and to grow, the more I can be of service to others. And to just yeah. To just tread lightly like everyone. Everyone is grieving something or someone. And they might not not even know it. They might not even know I had no idea I was grieving my sister before she died. You know, that I was. And so I think it’s just about, you know, like, I I I had my own, like, in the fall of spring of twenty twenty summer of twenty twenty. My own, like, racial awareness, like, ahaz. Right? And I remember the quote, you know, racism. Like, once once you start seeing it, it’s like dust you know, in the sunlight. It’s just it’s everywhere. Like, you can’t unsee it. And I feel that way about grief too. It’s like you can’t unsee once you start diving in that like, oh my gosh. Like, of course, they’re grieving their divorce. Of course, they’re grieving their child went off to college. Of course, they’re grieving that diagnosis. Like, now I can’t help but see it everywhere. And so it’s helped me to hopefully be gentler and more compassionate with other people and give them more grace.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Erin Whalen: Thank you for having me. This was really fun.
Victoria Volk: It was fun. I mean, we’re talking about grief. Greece is less fun right now.
Erin Whalen: What could be what could be fun are than grief?
Victoria Volk: And and I’m like, right? Yes. I’d say jokingly, I’ll say to people, grief is my jam. It’s like, that’s weird.
Erin Whalen: Oh, totally. Like, I get it.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, I guess, I’m a weirdo then. Call me a weirdo.
Erin Whalen: No. But you’re a good company.
Victoria Volk: I am
Erin Whalen: a weirdo.
Victoria Volk: You said We’ll let our weirdo flags fly. Where can people reach you if they’re in the end of life industry? Want to learn more about communication? The work that you’re doing? How can people find you? When does your book release?
Erin Whalen: All the things. So I am at compassionate coaching dot org. That’s my site. And you can either contact me through the site or you can send me an email. I love getting emails from people It’s erin at compassion coaching dot org.
My book, right now, I’m recording in early December of twenty twenty four. My book is in the hands of an editor. So I’m thinking, early twenty twenty five hopefully. It’ll be it’ll be published, and I’ll let you know so that you can update your show notes once it’s available. But I do have I do have a a where you can enter your email to get on the wait list. So that you can you can be updated. So I’ll give you that link too. So people can can get on the wait list if they wanna find out about the book.
Victoria Volk: Perfect. And is that based on your personal experience? Or is it more of like So it’s a memoir or self help or kind of a blend.
Erin Whalen: I live like a micro y memoir, mini memoir of my experience with anticipatory grief for forty years. And then now that Gina has died. She passed away in twenty sixteen, so, like, what it’s like to live now, now that she’s died.
Victoria Volk: And what do you think is coming next for you? What do you what do you look forward to?
Erin Whalen: I look forward to so many things. I’m doing we didn’t get a chance to talk about it on this podcast, but I do a really cool modality called playback theater. Related to grief, and I’m really excited to be doing some more of that locally. I’m in Arlington, Virginia. So if anyone’s near the Arlington, Virginia area, the DMV, they can look me up. And I will be doing I noticed you’re part of Analda, and I will be doing a webinar for them in April on communication skills, bringing to my role players. So
Victoria Volk: And that is the organization I was talking about. That wasn’t really you know, communication really wasn’t a huge focus of the training. So that’s excellent. That’s great.
Erin Whalen: I’m so excited. Then hopefully, I’ll see you there.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Great. Thank you so much. I’ve loved this conversation. It’s been a huge I I I really, really loved the tips portion because I think there was things talked about that just I’m glad that came through in our conversation.
So I’m really thankful for your time today. And I hope that this is of service to everyone who listens to it and that they share it with people that they know who may need some tips. Right? Because I I loved it. I loved it all.
Thank you so much for being my guest today.
Erin Whalen: Thank you so much for having me, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week, I sit down with Katie Prentiss, a filmmaker, actress, and caregiver who transformed her most profound loss into a powerful creative mission. Katie shares her raw and inspiring journey of caring for her mother through frontotemporal dementia (FTD), a challenging form of dementia that impacts personality and communication far differently than traditional memory-loss conditions.
At the age of 62, Katie’s mother, Maggie, passed away from FTD. Through our conversation, we follow Maggie’s transition from caregiver to actress and the filmmaking of her debut film, “Wake Up Maggie,” hoping to raise awareness about dementia and caregiving.
Katie beautifully describes grief as a “slow goodbye.” She shares transformative perspectives, saying that grief doesn’t have to have the final word and that facing fear can become a pathway to clarity and purpose. And, my favorite: the sun is always shining above the clouds, even when we can’t see it.
Katie has had to learn how to embrace life fully, knowing the genetic uncertainty of FTD, following the diagnosis of another family member. But she’s already learned how creative expression is a healing outlet and the importance of viewing midlife as an unraveling.
Key Takeaways:
- Understanding the unique challenges of frontotemporal dementia.
- The emotional landscape of caregiving for a parent with a progressive illness.
- How grief can be a catalyst for personal transformation.
- The power of creative expression in processing loss.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH KATIE:
Turning Grief into Purpose: Katie Prentiss on Caregiving, Loss, and Creativity
Grief has a way of reshaping our lives, often in ways we never expected. In this episode of Grieving Voices, we had the privilege of speaking with Katie Prentiss, a woman whose journey through loss led her to an entirely new path—one filled with purpose, creativity, and advocacy.
A Caregiver’s Heart
Katie’s story is one of love, resilience, and transformation. When her mother was diagnosed with Frontotemporal Dementia (FTD), Katie became her caregiver, navigating the challenges of watching a loved one change in ways she never imagined. As many caregivers can relate, the journey was heartbreaking yet deeply meaningful. It was a season of grief that began long before her mother’s passing—a slow goodbye filled with love, frustration, and moments of bittersweet connection.
The Unexpected Path to Filmmaking
While immersed in caregiving, Katie found solace in creativity. She soon realized that sharing stories—especially those of caregivers—was a powerful way to bring awareness and healing to others. This led her to a surprising new direction: filmmaking.
Her short film, Front Porches, captures the raw and emotional experience of caregiving, giving voice to the silent struggles that so many face. The film has received recognition and praise, serving as a beacon of hope for those feeling unseen in their caregiving journey. Now, with her upcoming project, Wake Up Maggie, Katie continues to use storytelling as a means of shedding light on the complexities of dementia and the deep love that endures through it all.
Finding Purpose Through Grief
Katie’s journey is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit. Grief, while heavy and painful, can also be a catalyst for change. It can open doors we never anticipated, guiding us toward healing in ways we never imagined.
Through her work, Katie not only honors her mother’s legacy but also creates a space for others to feel understood and validated. Her story is a reminder that even in loss, there is room for new beginnings.
Listen to the Full Episode
If you or someone you know has been touched by dementia or the challenges of caregiving, this episode is a must-listen. Katie’s words will inspire you to find healing in unexpected places and remind you that your grief has a purpose.
🎧 Tune in now to Grieving Voices and hear Katie’s powerful story. Let her journey encourage you to embrace your own path of healing and transformation.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria: Hello. Hello. Welcome to Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Katie Prentiss. She is the mother of four who was running a successful photography business when her mother was diagnosed with frontal temporal dementia, and she became her full time caregiver. Seeing firsthand how short life truly can be, Katie embarked on a mid life career pivot into acting, Katie’s second career began on the fast track by landing the first role She auditioned for in a feature film. Since that amazing opportunity, she added writer, director, and producer to her growing creative resume with the creation of her first award winning short film front porches. Acting has been a life changing occupation for Katie, allowing her to dive more deeply into the stories of others with empathy and understanding. Katie was has written a feature length film called Wakeup Meggie, a coming of age film written as a love letter to caregivers raising Dementia Awareness. Wake up Maggie is currently in preproduction and is being created by a female led production team in film crew. Katie has been featured on remember me, second act actors and more. Thank you so much for being my guests today.
Victoria: And thank you for sharing me, sharing an aspect of grief that hasn’t been talked about. I might have had one other guest who spoke on dementia, but not the frontal lobe dementia, which tends to my own understanding just because someone within my community was diagnosed very young in early fifties. Yeah. And so I believe it tends to develop at a younger age. Is that correct?
Katie: That is correct. It is the most common form of dementia under the age of sixty five.
Victoria: And so how old was your mom? Well, first of all, let’s was her name?
Katie: Maggie Maggie Hanson? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. My mom
Victoria: was when she was diagnosed then.
Katie: Yeah. My mom was sixty two when we officially got the diagnosis. The tricky thing with front or temporal dementia, FTD is that it can often take an average of three and a half years to get an accurate diagnosis. So often people are showing symptoms like early signs without the family knowing or without anyone knowing what it is or what’s going on. So I look back and think she definitely have symptoms like in her fifties.
For sure.
Victoria: Can you share what some of those things that were that you noticed as a family?
Katie: Sure. Well, I should say that frontotemporal dementia definitely affects someone’s personality. It’s less of a memory type of dementia, and it’s more of like personality, compulsion control. For my mom, in particular, it was speech, like language. She had primary progressive aphasias that she lost her ability to to communicate. But early on, it was my mom definitely had some shifts in personality, but we we also had a lot of life stuff happened with her. She had a massive car wreck when I was in college. She my parents went through a divorce when right about within those few years. So there was a lot of circumstantial change in her life, and it was easy to rationalize everything we saw as, oh, this is just mom now that she lives alone. Like, no one’s telling her to, like, stop obsessively recycling things. You know? Like, my mom would have just recycling containers stacked up really high. She also, like, was compulsively order like, ordering and clothing online, like, way more than one person could use. She was definitely felt victim to, like, some scams. Like, she signed up for, like, a phone and alarm system in her home. She definitely, like, had some color saying that they wanted to marry her and she fell into this like scam relationship where she sent someone money. But the biggest clue for us was that she started having delusions. And at first, the delusions felt somewhat based in reality, like, very explainable for us. Like, so she said, oh, there is a man and a son in my backyard. And I’m like, well, who? But, you know, in your rational mind, you’re thinking, oh, there’s probably like a child that that got away from their parents or something and they just went in the backyard and then left. But the delusions started getting more extreme and less realistic. So we knew that something was up at that point.
Victoria: And you’re also a mother of four.
Katie: Yeah.
Victoria: So and and I’m I’m also curious if you have siblings because I know you you became her caregiver No. But were your children young? Yeah. That was all that?
Katie: Yeah. It was a journey. So I am the middle child of three. I have an older brother and a younger sister, and they’re both wonderful humans like involved. And my extended my family all lived in Georgia at this point and my personal family was living in Oregon and we still are. When this was going on, again, like, there were signs and things going on with mom that we’d be like, that’s crazy. Like, she got lost going home. That’s that’s wild. Like but then once her delusions or her visions of things that she saw or felt were happening became more crazy. Like, she gave a story about a man and a woman who climbed up onto her roof and dug a hole in her roof. Like, she really believed they were, like, going into her attic through her roof. And it was so sad because I just want, like, it just sounds like she’s scared to live alone. Like, she thinks, like, everyone’s coming to her house. But but anyways, at that point, I talked to my sister and I said, I feel like maybe something’s wrong with her meds or like something’s off. Like, she’s just sharing some crazy stories. And we decided my sister took her to a psychiatrist. To see if there was something some sort of answer they could give us. And the psychiatrist appointment, they basically said, okay, your mom has a delusional disorder. She cannot drive and she cannot live alone. Like starting now. And so we were just like, wait, what? All of us had young kids at this point in our thirties. So my sister being closer in location to my mom. I mean, we were both like, well, she can come with us. It’s great. Like, in a way, it was like, well, mom’s really helpful to have around and, you know, she’s a grandma and, like, she’ll it is kinda nice to have an extra set of adult hands. And so my sister and I kinda joked about, like, I’ll take her. No. I’ll take her. And then she ended up moving in with my sister and her family.
And this was, like, late fall of that year. And my I remember saying to my sister, like, let’s just get through the holidays, like, just have mom for an extended visit through the holidays, and then we can talk about what we wanna do, like, in a more permanent way. But they they settled in with mom. She lived there almost three years with them. If I if I do the math right, I think it was right around three and she was living there her symptoms and and disease was progressing and she was getting more tricky to manage. I wasn’t, you know, in the weeds with them. They were handling so much stuff like, you know, moving her out of her house, selling her house eventually, like, all of those logistics of caring for someone. And then they got to their end of feeling able to maintain her care needs And at that point, I felt like I can’t tolerate having my mom go into a nursing home in Georgia, like across the country from me. So I felt like I wanted her to come live with us and talked with my husband and we made the decision to make we’re out to Oregon. And so mom lived here her last two and a half, almost three years of her life with us. So she lived with us in our home for about less than a year and then we had to put her into a nursing home and then a memory care home to be able to handle her needs because it was so advanced. So it was a journey. It was a long journey of trying to figure out how to care for her well. In those years.
Victoria: I think that’s probably I mean, I I’ve just seen it. Mhmm. And so and working I worked in a nursing home, had a memory care, but it is and it can be a very long disease.
Katie: Yeah.
Victoria: And I think that is probably one of would you say that create one of the aspects of it that creates a lot of complicated feelings
Katie: Absolutely. Absolutely because it’s like you’re mourning your person that’s right in front of you. You know that they’re on their decline and that death is going to come for them through this it’s usually secondary causes through this case, which is super frustrating. But I remember feeling really afraid of how long mom might live with this. Because you just you start to project out and envision the future, and it’s it’s this, like, rapid decline of them losing well, for us, it was all her personality, all her ability to talk. She became, like, The only way I can describe it is like it would be like a severely autistic person where the ability to communicate is just gone and you’re like, know that they’re in there, but you want to be able to reach in and have some sort of semblance of interaction with them, found myself envious of people with Alzheimer’s because I thought, yeah, they’re repeating their story and they don’t remember you, but, like, at least they can talk to you. Like, I felt like I just would have given anything to talk to her. To just, like, hear her say something or tell me the same story or, you know, let’s let’s, you know, have that conversation about who I am not to, like, diminish anyone else’s suffering or pain with that. But it is very complicated. It’s complicated and that you don’t want it to last a really long time. It’s complicated that you feel like you’re grieving them while they’re still there in front of you. I called it the slow goodbye. I know people call it the long goodbye. But yeah, it’s just it’s yeah. It’s just a a difficult walk for sure.
Victoria: How did you explain this to your kids? I mean, because you’re a caregiver to children too Yeah. Managing their emotions. Yeah. And bringing a parent into the home, I imagine has a different impact on your marriage too.
And Absolutely. A lot of layers.
Katie: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, our kids I would say, I’m trying to remember exactly how old they were. I think our oldest was, like, maybe just started middle school and then our youngest was in kindergarten, first grade. I can’t remember.
And I would say for the youngest, it was, like, easy because I found him to be the easiest to bring around mom because he would just hug her and, you know, bop away and then come back and hug her again and just like how children can be so present. And and and what is and not, you know, given to, like, the fear, the imagination of what could be. And then the odor we get, the more we live in those spaces of not being present and you know, constantly fearing the worst and stuff. But my older kids I mean, it’s it’s funny because I think I was in such crisis management mode. I don’t know if I did a very good job of explaining anything to them. But I was trying to do my best to model love and care and acceptance like this is what we do. We take care of family. We love the person in front of us. Even though they’re difficult, but I probably was naive in what I assumed they were absorbing. It’s so easy to assume kids aren’t. Absorbing as much and they always are. They’re so much smarter than we give them credit for. Mister Rogers was so good at that. Right? Like acknowledging that in children. But I remember my kids would have, like, writing assignments and they’d they’d bring them home and it would be, like, a poem and it would be about my mom, about Mimi living with us. And I thought, oh my gosh, wow. They’re so deeply processing. So I think that they I definitely felt my children’s attention and care toward me. Is their mom watching me, like, be in this grief? And we just did our very best to, like, support mom, but also, like, give our family time in nurture. And that was the hardest challenge is, like, doing both, like, having just our family time and not feeling guilty about that. And then also trying to take care of mom. So it was a lot like having her in our home. Her needs were really even in the very beginning of her moving in.
Her needs were probably more advanced in what we could handle and we tried. So what did you learn about grief or know about grief?
Victoria: I mean, because you had experienced your parents’ divorce Mhmm. And But had grief been a topic that was talked about growing up? And how do you feel how how do you feel this experience has changed? How you look at grief now? And how you parent.
Katie: Yeah. I grief. Wow. I don’t know. I definitely had a taste of grief with the divorce for sure that such I remember just feeling like, wow, that really, like, shifted my identity in a way that, like it’s like everything I’ve known myself to be and known myself to be a part of down feels like fragmented. And Even in that, I notice, like, oh, people who have been through it, get it, and know that it’s hard. Whereas grief is so tricky, like, when you haven’t experienced a like grief, it’s harder to enter in with people’s suffering or pain or hold space for that because you just feel like I think, especially, okay, going back to the divorce, I think it’s such commonplace almost and in our culture that people are like, oh, sorry. You know, it’s kinda like, oh, that’s hard. Okay. Sorry. And whereas I was, like, processing this whole, like, identity and how do I deal with all of this stuff? I think the thing with mom I you know, that was the most obviously, it’s the most profound grief I’ve ever been through in my life. I think when I was in it, I felt very isolated from people really understanding what it was like because so like we even talked about earlier in this podcast, I think so many people understand Alzheimer’s or some type of dementia, but I felt so young and so confused by mom’s behaviors in the way she was exhibiting symptoms. I felt misunderstood in a lot of ways I remember, periodically, I would post something on social media and share, like, a couple sentences about losing her as a person and dementia sucks. And then I would find someone whose loved one also had a t d or who were going through something similar and I remember feeling like, wow, why does this feel so helpful even though it changes nothing? It just feels so helpful to know that you’re actually not alone in the exact scenario you’re in. So I learned that in that in those moments, I learned that sharing our story is incredibly powerful and that even though we can feel so isolated and alone, that can really help with with some of those feelings. And then, obviously, with the grief, like, the deeper grief of of her actual death and that loss, I learned so much. I learned that we all experience our grief so differently from each other. And I think the really interesting thing is that even in a sibling group or even when you’re grieving the exact same person that you feel like you know in a very similar or same ish way, you will process it differently. And I notice very early on that sometimes the people you think you’ll be able to have, like, intimacy and grieving with, you might not be able to have that. And I also notice how easy it is to compare your grief to other people, vice versa, and how unhelpful that is. So if someone’s sobbing and you feel like stone cold like dried up, it’s easy for one to think the other is silly or whatever, but it’s not helpful. So that was those lessons were incredibly profound in the early stages of losing mom of, like, oh, we’re all gonna do this differently. It does nothing to compare. It does nothing to serve us to compare or contrast. And, you know, you may not be able to share your grief with people who you think you might be able to share your grief with. The other thing that I realized that I think a lot of people probably know of experience grief is that it shows up when it wants to show up. It’s a non invited guest. I I’m always like, this is now my lifelong companion. Don’t really wanna walk with her, but I will be. And it’s something that I just have to let, like, show up and move through. And and yeah. And just it does change through years, but it’s not that loss is always there. The loss of a person that you love or the loss of a dream that you had or yeah, that loss of future that you expected. It’s just it’s like always gonna be there. So and I’m still learning. I I think the other lesson now I’m like eight years out of losing my mom. And I always I think a lot about how it doesn’t have to end with grief. Like, grief doesn’t get to have the final word. And that’s the other thing I’ve learned. It’s like, yes. The impact is profound. It might stop you in your tracks. You might have to spend a lot of years, like, what I call cocooning. Like, cocoon and heal and contract. And, like, take that comfort and space however you can survive, but know that it doesn’t have to be the final say that, like, the clouds can lift and I always say the sun is always shining above the clouds just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not there. And that brings me so much comfort just knowing like I might be like walking around and just gray clouds feeling so thick. Like, I’ll never see anything else besides that, but the sun is shining. And if you’ve ever taken a flight, you know what that feels like to fly through the clouds and then it’s glorious.
Right? It’s like the sky is just lit up or you know, maybe you get a sunrise or a sunset in there, see other beautiful things, but like that’s existing all the time on a different plane and is accessible to us, at least in our minds.
Victoria: Beautiful.
Katie: Thank you.
Victoria: What was the thing do you think that helped you the most to create a forward momentum of healing?
Katie: I think for me, losing mom at a young age made me realize the contrast is like, yes, death can happen at any time. We don’t know. Like, we can’t predict our future, that makes me want to, like, live. It doesn’t serve anyone for us to just curl up in a ball and be dead ourselves, you know. And so for me, it’s like, well, okay.
Now I know so profoundly that life is short. And I want to, like, live big. I want to live as big as I can and love as big as I can. And I feel like just that thought alone helps me. Just like I think it’s probably inevitable to compare your life to, like, especially when you lose a parent, when you lose a parent at a certain age, you start thinking like, well, that’s what’s gonna happen to me. You know? So it’s easy for me to be like, oh, sixty two sixty two like in my mind. I only have till sixty two and that is really like not a lot of time. And so even though I don’t wanna believe that or predict that for myself, it comes in, and then I have to say, okay, well, what if it was true? Like, what would you do? And I’m like, let’s go. Let’s go do some things that make me feel alive. And so I actually use that as a barometer a lot. It’s like, what makes me feel really alive? And it’s not comfort food and TV and social media scrolling and all the things I do all the time. I’m not judging any of these things, but those don’t make me feel really live. Those things make me feel more numb. What makes me feel more alive is truly connecting with people, is taking risks, is doing something new, getting out of my comfort zone. So when I say I really want to be alive, I use that as a measure. What makes me feel alive? Oh, like, learning a different style of dance, even though I’m not good at dancing. Like, I just I’m like, that’s so fun. So I try to do those things and I my kids are now at the age where they’re graduating from high school and heading to college, etcetera. And I think, like, that even more so, that’s a different kind of grief. And in of itself, like, identity and family dynamic shift, and and whatnot. But I think about that a lot too. I’m like, okay, they’re going out to have their adventure and I can’t, too. Like, this this is We’re getting some time back in our lives. And so I don’t wanna just waste that away. I wanna I wanna do things that yeah. That feel like yeah. I don’t wanna just settle and, like, move into, like, a comfort zone. I want to move into, like, something new and and have an adventure.
Victoria: And be reminded that you are alive. Right?
Katie: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
Victoria: I lost my dad. He was forty four. Oh. And so that’s one thing people don’t really talk about, right, is you wait for that year to come around. Like, oh, I’ve made it past. My dad’s age now. Okay. Well, I can cross that off the list, you know. So that’s something people who really don’t talk about. Mhmm. One thing I’m curious too, because I’ve I’ve had this awareness just for myself in the last year or so is that I could never I never had my dad’s birthday on my calendar, but I always had the day he died. Wow. Were you the same? Or I, you know, like, I could never celebrate the day of his birth. Right? Which seems really no. I I I was eight when he passed. So I didn’t have a very long time. Right? But I don’t even remember I think there’s a picture of it was his birthday one time, but Yeah. I just think people don’t really talk about that part of
Katie: Yeah. Dates. I can see as an eight year old in only having experienced him for those years how his death date would be way more profound for you than his birthday. Just thinking about that. Like, I’m thinking, yeah, I can’t imagine as an eight year old processing that. And then every year, like, feeling the impact of that in such a profound way, it doesn’t surprise me that that would be your experience. I think that for me, my mom was like, such a birthday accelerator. And I’m like such a birthday. I it’s like I’m a little spazzy about it. I just love celebrating birthdays.
I tease about having a birthday month, and I’m a little bit of a diva about it, and I love celebrating my kids’ birthdays. I’ve created little monsters with them about birthdays. So I think because of that, it’s easy for me to, like, gravitate towards my mom’s birthday and want to do things for her then. There was a couple a year in there where I was, like, oh, like, her day of death, like, pass without me even noticing. And I was like, oh, weird. Like, I almost felt bad for not thinking about it. But I was like, well, it’s fine. You know, like, that’s Anyway, Yeah. I I do think that it’s something I thought about as far as, like, the catching up with your parents’ age. My dad lost his father when he was twenty one. So my dad was twenty one when his dad died. And he I definitely watched him go, oh, I’m getting to the age. I can’t remember how old his dad was, but he he definitely had that in his mind. And I watched him contemplate that. And then, for me, it was just a really profound reality of, like, oh, okay. Like, oh, no. My mom my mom, you know, started her decline in her fifties. That’s not good. And then she died when she was sixty eight, diagnosed when she was sixty two. So I’m like, that’s not good. But even I don’t know. I just think it’s it’s kind of I don’t know how it feels for you, but, like, I almost feel like watching someone die is a little bit like experiencing a car accident and how that, like, just like imprints on your body, like, imprints in your memory and in your DNA away or something. This is all science based. But, like, I think, like, the way you viscerally feel a car wreck, a car wreck, even when you, like sometimes even just say car wreck, like, we can put ourselves back in that space and time so quickly. I think that watching someone’s decline and death it’s not a shocking, but if you are able if you are able to see someone’s processor decline there’s a knowing that happens that you can’t know any other way.
Victoria: Has it made you paranoid about your own health?
Katie: So Yes. So part of my journey, especially in in my film making career at this point, is to raise awareness around FTD, caregiving, like this whole thing. But one of the things I realized in in the moment when we got mom’s diagnosis of FTD, I just heard dementia. And I I heard dementia and I was like, okay, it’s some type of dementia and it’s in her frontal temporal lobes. So those lobes are like, this part of us and And I kind of I’m I I think that I was in so much crisis that I couldn’t even tolerate researching and finding more information. It felt like it would really stress me out even more. It was more like a survival survival. Since then, lost my mom in twenty sixteen. I made my first film in twenty twenty, which was also about dementia, like those early signs of dementia. And in that process, like, got connected with FTD community and more people in this world and started learning more just in my own journey in healing and stuff. And one of the things I learned was that FTD can be genetic. There can be like a genetic strain, like ALS or Huntington’s or one of those things. So that doesn’t feel really good in a child’s mind of someone with dementia or with FTD. But so one so I realized there’s a genetic component and I still was, like, okay, but I can, like, deny this away. Jeff can make sure, you know, oh, well, mom had the car wreck and all these other things, so it’s probably related to that and not really related to any kind of genetics.
But then a number of years ago, her younger brother got diagnosed with a TD. So that was like a a heart soft for me. And there is testing available, which I could partake in. I don’t know if we have. I don’t know. I haven’t done the research on how that works or what we need to be able to find out. And it is something I want to explore just to even contribute to research. Even if I don’t find out whether I have it or not, it would contribute to the research of FTD, which is important to me. But all of that to say is I’m on this journey. I’m making my first feature film.
It is to raise awareness on caregiving and dementia’s in general, but specifically diagnosis with FTD. And as I’m writing the film, I’m, like, preparing, I just feel like there’s this, like, fear monster over my shoulder, like, you have it. You probably have it. Every time I stumble on my words or, like, you know, my handwriting gets wonky or whatever I think, oh my god. Like, this is early signs.
I can probably have it. So that fear is palpable. Like, it’s in my life. It’s present. It’s attached to the grief. It’s attached to the work that I’m doing currently in my life. I was working and moving through it just feeling like, you know, it’s over there. I’m like, just wanting to shoe it away, like go away, go away. And then and then I stop for a second and I think I’m like, okay, instead of trying to ignore this and act as if it’s not here with me, what if I face it. And so I had this moment where I thought, I need to just turn around and look at in the face. And so for me, that means instead of, like, being afraid of it. Why don’t I just embrace it as if it is? And, you know, fear is just our imagination, and we can use it for our good, and we can use it for our demise. And I I feel like For me, this is how it sounded. Okay. Instead of like always being afraid every time little clubs happen or whatever, I’m gonna say, what if I knew for sure? That I had FTD. What if I knew for sure that I am gonna have this thing, it’s coming, this is the way I’m gonna this is the way my life is gonna end? What would you do? And asking myself that just gives so much clarity because I realize even if I knew I had it, I would have to move into acceptance just like we have to with our grief at some point. Why not do it now? And think about this like if I had FTD, I would live my life as fully as possible. I would love my family, my friends, I would try to say present with them, I would try to pursue the healthiest life that I could. You know, obviously, like, we’re all gonna sit on the couch and eat a bag of chips or whatever, but it’s like I would choose healthy food, I would choose outdoor time, I would choose friend time, being present with people, And the other really point of clarity for me was and I would make this movie. And this movie would be like my contribution. And so asking that question and facing that beer monster dead on was such a moment of clarity for me in that I know I’m doing what I want to be doing with my life. I’m being very intentional. And now this movie is not just a good idea or something really fun and cool that I get to try to do, but it now is my mission. And the greatest part about that is I think one thousand percent I’m going to make this movie and it’s going to impact people in these spaces, no matter what. Like, no matter what. My hope is that it’s gonna just soar to the to outer space with success. And My dream is that it’ll be my first of many movies that I have all these other movies that I get to make. I have some really amazing stories already in my mind that I that I cannot wait to get on paper and then on the camera and etcetera. But no matter what, I’m gonna make this one. And if I got FCD and that was the only movie I got to make, so be it.
Like, this is a great one to choose. And probably, I won’t die that way and something else will happen and I’ll get to make a whole other movies, but it just gave me so much peace just to, like, assume that it was that it was rather than fear that it might be. And that peace allowed me to have clarity with knowing that I’m doing what I wanna be doing with my time. In my life. So that that question is so huge for me of, like, what if I got it? And and answering that straight on was really helpful.
Victoria: It’s a powerful reframe. Mhmm. Then there’s probably a camp of people, like, no. You’re like, manifesting it.
Katie: I know. I know. People are like, don’t say that, but I I think I agree. I I do I do agree, like, that can, like, you know, the way we imagine and spend our time and our energy in our minds thinking is is impactful to our lives, but I also have to be compassionate towards myself and be like, of course, you’re afraid of this. Like, it was the most traumatizing thing you ever been through.
So, like, we can’t we can’t have these fears, have this grief, and then also make ourselves feel terrible for being afraid of it, you know, with the manifestation camp. I mean, I love manifesting things and, like, spending my energy for good, but I also have to be honest about what I’m
Victoria: And who’s the thing about that too? As I was thinking about, and as I said that, the other aspect of it, Elo, is yes, there might be people who think you’re manifesting it, but it’s not like you’re dwelling on the fact that I’m I have this. It’s You’re dwelling on the fact that if this is a possibility, I’m going to take action. So it’s almost like it’s you reverse engineering it and your focus isn’t on the dwelling Yeah. That this is, oh my gosh, this is gonna happen to me and it’s oh my gosh.
If this were true, It’s propelling you to take action. Yeah. Inspired action.
Katie: Right? Thank you.
Victoria: How has it changed? Has this movie changed the Like, do you have support from your family? Has this whole experience brought you closer with your siblings? Yes. Absolutely.
Shifted.
Katie: It’s been phenomenal. So here’s where we are right now at the recording time of this podcast. We have I’ve spent, like, years writing this script. I’ve spent the full last year fundraising and growing support for the film where fiscally sponsored and under a nonprofit. For our filmmaking, which is just such a huge it’s something I’m really thankful and proud of. The support has been phenomenal. And when I start thinking about it, I like it emotional. I have so much gratitude I’m doing something that really scares me. Like, this film feels like a really big deal. It’s it’s a big endeavor to do what I’m trying to do with, like, I’m acting and directing and producing the same. And I know it’s like taking a big old bite out of the film making world. But from the get go, the amount of support in people that have rallied to see this film come to fruition has has truly been phenomenal. And you asked about my siblings. And one of one of the ideas I had in this fundraising journey, and I think of it as more than fundraising. It’s not just getting money for film. It’s also growing an audience and growing a community around this. That really what my hope is is the more people that follow along and join us as we’re creating this thing that then we’ll get to, like, launch screenings and theaters around the country and, like, people will be able to come out and watch. But one of my ideas was what if we what if we did some happy hours and different places that I’ve lived and, like, have people host parties and we can share about the movie and and gather our community. And of course, one of those people was my sister in Georgia, and I was like, hey, what do you think about hosting one of these? And she’s so good at hosting parties. She’s amazing. She’s like, I’m in. Let’s go. Let’s do this. And then my brother has a band that he plays in called holy smokes.
And they do cover music and their band donated their time and we had this big old party and it was just such a meaningful event to join with my brother and sister and feel so supported about us taking this journey and, like, them supporting just the creating of wake up Maggie was just phenomenal. But, you know, it’s so touching. Like, I have people who have donated, like, ten dollars and people who have donated, like, thirty five thousand dollars. So it’s, to me, money is energy and time. And it’s all, like, coming from the same bucket. And so I don’t get super fixated on the money. I really love to fixate on the energy and, like, what what are we growing and what are we building and what are we doing? It’s more of a movement. So I have been absolutely floored by the by the people that come along and say, okay, let’s get this movie made. Like, how can I support you?
What are we gonna do? Let’s go. And I’m just gonna say, like, it’s so many women that have done that for me, and I’m like, women are so powerful. It’s just amazing. It’s not all women, but, like, it’s just Yeah. I think I think this is a film. I call it a coming of middle aged film, which I personally love because we have so many coming of age films of, like, you know, the transition of teenagers and I love that genre, but I feel like there’s a different there’s a different transition, a different like a second puberty of sorts that happen in our midlife, and I think that if we let it affect us, it can change us for so much good and so much of it is centered on grief. So much of it is I think sometimes people in their twenties have gone through midlife because they face something deep and profound. You in their life and it’s like a grief and impacts them to the point where they say, I Okay. I’m going to like have this perspective on life and and what I wanna do and know how I wanna live. That’s what midlife is to me. It’s this unraveling of pretense. And and, like, coming into our own and, like, feeling more solid in in our life and our humanity. And that’s something huge to celebrate. And I think getting to see it on the big screen is gonna be a really profound experience for all of us, and I can’t wait for everyone to see it.
Victoria: Well, I definitely will put the link in the show notes.
Katie: Please Yeah.
Victoria: To your page for people to support your mission and your cause. Thank how would you describe the Katie you were before your mother’s own list and the Katie sitting before me now?
Katie: Yeah. That’s great question. So much of my journey definitely is integral with acting. So I started acting after I lost my mom. And I would say before I lost my mom, I was a heavy people pleaser. Lots of personal denial, lots of ignoring of my own needs, ignoring of myself, body awareness. Like, all that was just, like, not really a part of my life. And then the healing journey along walking parallel and my healing journey with grief and then also deepening acting, I feel like my journey with acting has helped me become more fully human. It’s helped me to acknowledge and deal with like emotions that I often would wanna pretend don’t exist inside me. It’s helped me to connect my mind with my body and my nervous system in a deep way, like, oh, I actually need to notice when I’m like, I can look really calm on the outside. I can tend to be, like, a more people often say, oh, you’re so quiet and soothing. And I’m like, funny. Because, you know you know if you’re feeling like this spending or churning inside
Victoria: like a horse and a horse race.
Katie: Right? It’s just this like, yes, you feel that inside and and I think I think my journey with acting has helped me to say, oh, that that’s happening right now. And like, what can I do to support myself? And what can I do to support my nervous system? And how can I experience what I’m experiencing?
But also like not let it stop me in my tracks. So it’s been so profound. It’s been so profound. I think like coming to acceptance with my mom’s disease, coming to acceptance with my mom’s death, and then moving into a life that I I just want to be so intentional and present and just filled with gratitude. It’s just it’s it’s like, yeah, it does feel like an unraveling. I think, Berné Brown has a quote that I love that she talks about, midlife isn’t a crisis because a crisis is one event. Midlife is more of an unraveling. And I think we think of the word, like, being unraveled as, like, a negative thing, like, someone’s frazzled or something. But but I feel it as, like, peeling back for me, it’s an appealing back of the layers that no longer serve me, the layers that I hid behind and and, you know, coming into my own space and in place in this world and, like, owning who I am without trying to constantly please and put everyone else first and like their opinions first. So I think it’s also been a journey of exposing myself in that way too of, like, people pleasers can often blend in so well. And then, acting and filmmaking is like one of the most public art forms you could possibly choose. And so it does a number on me because I think, oh, no, everyone’s blah blah blah blah blah. And I’m like, no, they’re not. They’re completely preoccupied with themselves, but I think just just doing that type of exposure helps me, like, care less. About my imagination towards what other people might be thinking. So, yeah, so I feel like I am obviously, I think we have these core parts of us that are always true to who we are, but I think What’s happened is for me in this process of losing mom and moving forward with my life is that I’m more raw and more real and less hidden in it.
Victoria: I think we almost get as we allow ourselves to be cracked open and
Katie: Yeah.
Victoria: Expose ourselves and do things out of out of our comfort zones and challenge ourselves. We become more like children. Right? One of women and children and we get back to I think that child, like, essence within us that we stuffed away and put away because it’s not acceptable
Katie: Yeah.
Victoria: To have you and and creative expression is is fufu and it’s for it’s like a luxury. And I what I’ve learned in all of these interviews I’ve done in over four years and my own experience is that when you lean into creative expression, and out of your comfort zone, doing things out of your comfort zone. That’s when you really discover who you were always meant to be, I think.
Katie: Yes. I’d love that. Yeah. It really is coming into a sense of play. And you can’t you can’t play unless you’re, like, really present. Mhmm. And our adult minds love to, like, fixate on the past or the future and not, like, right now. So I love that you’re saying that. Yeah.
Victoria: Well, in using the past as your creative fuel. Right? So it is looking at it. Mhmm. You’re not having to look at it. It’s not a stuffing and a tucking away just like and that’s what we do with our grief, and I think that’s what so many griefers find themselves stuck in mid life is that they haven’t allowed themselves to fully express themselves. Yeah.
Katie: No, I totally get what you’re saying about looking at it. I think that writing Even though I’m writing fiction and I’m writing the script and the story that’s not it’s not my story, but it is so much of my story that it has been a really healing journey of of It’s like exploring the past and what happened, but also in a playful way of storytelling. Yeah.
Victoria: Mhmm. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t feel you got to?
Katie: That’s a nice question. I feel really good. I I just yeah. I I love what you’re doing in the world and and that you’re helping grivers feel heard and seen and understood. And I think it’s such an important thing for all of us because so often grief hits and we’ve not ever thought about it until we’re in it. I think if I could just leave people with anything. It’s just the imagery of the sun shining above the clouds. Think if if nothing else, if you just close your eyes and know that what you feel isn’t the only truth of existence right now. It’s okay to feel it and it’s and it’s also really helpful to know that there’s, like, light and warmth above that you will access.
Victoria: Beautiful words. Thank you. Where can people reach you if they would like to learn more about you? Wake up Maggie, your work, all of them? Where can they connect with you?
Katie: Thank you. For asking that, I try to make it as easy as possible. All of my social media is Katie Prentiss, so pretty easy to find. My website is kady prentiss dot com. And wake up Maggie is all under wake up Maggie movie.
Wake up maggie movie dot com and on Facebook and Instagram is wake up maggie movie. So we’d love for you to follow along and and be a part of our journey. So try to share it all.
Victoria: Do you have a goal date?
Katie: Yes. We’re filming in February of twenty twenty five. Yeah. Oh, awesome. Yes.
Yes. So we’re right in the middle of working so hard to get everything ready for filming. So we’re in pre production production right now. And then we’ll shoot for about three weeks in February, and then we’ll be in postproduction, which is all the editing and sound and all the all the design work that happens on the backside of of shooting the film. So if I don’t know exactly when we’ll be released, but this is why it’s so good for you to follow us on social media or come to our website.
We even have an email list you can sign up for. And we’ll keep you posted. That way, we really love for people to join us and be a part of it. So then when we do screen in theaters, hopefully we can have everyone come out.
Victoria: I’m just curious. Do you have, like, are you, like, one of those people with numbers. Like, numbers are important. Or do you do you have, like, a specific date? Like, you know, your mom’s birthday maybe
Katie: Oh.
Victoria: Something like that where you plan to even if it’s done, you’re not gonna launch until
Katie: Oh, I love that. I haven’t thought about that with mom. I will say I lost mom. We lost her on February twelfth, twenty sixteen, and we’re shooting in February, which is interesting to me. And then I definitely tossed her birth date.
Into the film as a birth date of one of the characters. Obviously, it’s called Waco Maggi after her, but I haven’t thought about the release date. That would be really special if it was on some sort of special date, but I haven’t thought about that.
Victoria: Okay. I’m just curious.
Katie: Yeah.
Victoria: It’ll be really special. I’m sure. Thank you. Amazing way to honor your mom and her memory. Filming in February.
Katie: So Yeah. Beautiful.
Victoria: How that worked out? Yeah.
Katie: Yes. I agree.
Victoria: Alright. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate you sharing your story and and your mission. And being a part of my mission to talk about grief like we talk about the weather and and it’s, you know, it’s not all doom and gloom. Right?
Katie: Right. Exactly. Yeah. No. Thank you so much for having me.
It’s really no longer to be with you. And all of your listeners and just to be able to share my stories a gift. So thank you.
Victoria: Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
