Child Loss, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Phil Cohen | The Pursuit of Healing After an Ocean of Tears
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
They say it’s unnatural to lose a child. And, there’s no word for a parent who has lost a child other than griever, which somehow doesn’t embody all a parent experiences—much less childless parents.
What is a word for a parent whose only child dies?
As it turns out, there’s maybe only one that might describe that inconsolable feeling – lost.
Phil found himself lost in an ocean of tears after his only son, Perry, 14 1/2 years old, and his friend became victims of a storm that came out of nowhere while fishing on their 19′ fishing boat off the Jupiter inlet in Jupiter, Florida. It was a beautiful summer day that turned treacherous on July 24th, 2015, and it was a day that changed the trajectory of Phil’s life forever, as grief does.
The waves and tides of the ocean are often an analogy used for grief. There is irony in Phil’s story of how he lost his only son, never to be found. However, what Phil did find was his voice, a calling in his pain, and lessons in the heartache along the way.
Phil lives his life as if it were a love letter, continually being written to his beloved and only son. Although it’s a letter, he would rather not be (metaphorically) writing, and he would change that day if he could, knowing that healing is the only thing he can do about it.
Phil has chosen to listen to his son’s voice, which he believes he heard one night while crying alone: “Get up, dad!”
May this episode inspire others, especially if you’ve lost a child, to come to terms with what happened and what you cannot change, and dare to GET UP and do something about it now.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Phil Cohen. He is a keynote TEDx speaker, grief coach and creator of the grief continuum, a framework for helping others grow, flourish and overcome despair by discovering and developing their inner resilience. for over 25 years, Phil has helped global technology startups grow and prosper through developing their sales teams. After experiencing the sudden loss of his son, Phil has found a renewed purpose in helping others to integrate grief into their own lives after experiencing the inevitable traumas, tragedies and transitions in life. Thank you so much for being my guest, Phil.
Phil Cohen 0:44
Yeah. Thank you for having me, Victoria. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Victoria Volk 0:50
So let’s start with you call yourself is your business the grief guy? Is that accurate?
Phil Cohen 0:57
Yes. Does that mean either just Phil Cohen or the grief guy. And you know, the reason why I did that is that I found that the vast majority of people that I’m working with are men. And it’s been my experience through everything that I’ve gone through, that men have no idea or they’re, they’re really not educated on how to grieve properly. So they’ll push it down, they’ll run away from it. And especially those men who have lost a child, as a society, we have a tendency to flock around the mothers, which I totally, totally get. And dad just wants to be strong for his wife and his family. And he really doesn’t get a chance to be heard. So I just named my business to grief guy really just to, in an effort maybe to attract more men?
Victoria Volk 1:46
Do you find that a lot of the work that you’re dealing with these men do you do actually do dig into their childhood experiences with grief and trauma too? Does a lot of that come up? Or is it mostly just current grief experiences that they’re having? They find that.
Phil Cohen 2:02
It always starts sorry to interrupt the dad always starts with the current experience. That’s where the jump off point is, and eventually inevitably gets into other parts of their life. So it’s kind of like, it starts out and grief coach, and then maybe more of like a life and business coach at the same time. That, you know, I found that a lot of men or even some of the women that I work with, they want to do something with what they’ve learned and what they’ve been through. So whether it’s be I get a lot of questions about how did you get your TEDx? What did you do? What processes did you go through the process of writing a book and people ask me, Well, how can I do that? Do I have to Self Publish? How do I start? So it’s not only working through the emotional aspect, it’s also helping them do something with what they’ve learned through their grief.
Victoria Volk 2:53
And when did this this all started because of your own loss and your experience? And so can you take us back into time and share what your loss has been? And the impact it’s had?
Phil Cohen 3:07
Sure. So on July 24 2015, and if you were ever if you’re anywhere on the East Coast, especially Florida, you likely remember the story. My son and his close friend were last seen leaving the Jupiter inlet on a 19 foot fishing boat. There was a really bad storm, one of those storms that South Florida storms that come out of nowhere, that was 40 mile an hour winds, heavy rains. We tried to reach the boys via their cell phones and after an unsuccessful attempts at that the Coast Guard was notified. And I haven’t confirmed this but I was told that it was the most extensive search in the history of the United States Coast Guard that lasted seven excruciating days if if you live I live in California now in San Diego, so on the other coast, and people go miss all the time. You know, paddleboarders people on sailboats. Generally they’ll look for a week I’m sorry, like a day, maybe a half a day, but to be continuing looking for a week and all the assets that were used. You know, it was it was a really long search. Unfortunately, neither of the boys were ever found. And although I’ve been through all of the reports, and there was the Coast Guard report, the FWC see report that’s Florida, wildlife. FBI was involved and we hired private searches as well. I don’t know for sure exactly what happened, but I’m pretty sure they got caught in a storm there. I know that their motor seized and likely flipped over in that storm. Then I’d like to think that they perish quickly, but we don’t know for sure.
Victoria Volk 4:52
Was the boat ever found.
Phil Cohen 4:55
The boat was lost and found three times for good or not. So the boys went missing on a Friday. On Sunday, they found the boat off the coast of Ponce de Leon from Florida, so many, many miles north, a guy who got into the jet stream and started to head north than what the Coast Guard will do is they’ll basically reverse engineer the currents to determine where the boat, you know where the boats started from. So what they said that they did was that they threw in a marker buoy, because they found it with a helicopter. And they couldn’t obviously, I’m sorry, it was initially one of their planes. So they dropped a marker buoy that would basically stay with the boat. But unfortunately, somehow it didn’t. Then several months later, water taxi, spotted the boat, and they went back to go to go get the right equipment to pull the boat in. And then when they when they went back for it, they couldn’t find it. And then about a year and a half later, there was a Norwegian shipping container that eventually found the boat and pulled it up onto onto, onto its, I forgot what you call the platform of that boat. But so we eventually did find the boat. And believe it or not, one of the crazy things about that was the mom my son’s friend’s cell phone, his iPhone was found in a watertight compartment inside the boat. We sent the phone to Apple to get some data off the phone, but any possible data because I really thought okay, now I’m gonna be able to fill in some of the missing pieces of exactly where they were, maybe some of the texts or phone calls that were made. But Apple was never able to retrieve any information off the phone. So, you know, there’s still a lot of missing pieces to it. But the boat was eventually found.
Victoria Volk 6:49
Was it in good condition? Like it was still good condition or just pretty?
Phil Cohen 6:54
No, no, it was very deteriorated. I mean, the the phone was actually in decent condition. But the boat was there was just mainly just a hall, the center console, I basically dropped off, and a lot of the other pieces have basically dropped off. There are there are photos of it. If you Google, Perry Cohen, who’s my son, you’ll you’ll see, you’ll see that pictures of the boat, and the vessel that attempted to pick it up or did pick it up. But it was crazy. The the captain of that boat said that his wife was on there with his wife and his wife said, let’s go out and get some fresh air. And he said, If he didn’t go out at that exact moment, and look in the direction exactly where he looked, he would have never spotted the bow because it had a black hole. So it was almost like, you know, a bow wanted to be found.
Victoria Volk 7:49
Wow. So what was life? Like? In the weeks following? And after and months? What was that? Like?
Phil Cohen 7:58
You know, people asked me that question quite a bit. And it’s, it’s like almost impossible to put into words what that feeling is like, Perry was my only child. So you know, and prior to that, I’d always consider myself blessed. Because I’d never been I still do consider myself blessed. But I’d never lost anybody that I loved. So to all of a sudden lose the most precious person in my life was a real blow to me, I didn’t know what to do, I’d say in terms of feeling. It felt like somebody just scooped out the entire middle of my body. Like there was nothing in the center part of my body, but it still hurt a lot. And you know, there’s there’s no preparation or training or, you know, for something like that. So I really, I had no idea what I was supposed to do. So I just, I just broke down. Really I broke down and stay I stayed hidden for quite some time just in a dark room on the floor crying trying to figure out asking, asking why, why me? Definitely had my, you know, my wrestling with God moment for sure that especially as a Christian going into this, I remember thinking, God, you know, the words that you used, and could have said anything to tell the world how much he loves the US. But the words he chose to use was I love the world so much that I gave my only begotten Son. And yet you took my and so it was definitely shook my faith for a little bit. But I’m so thankful for the foundation of faith that I had in place going into this. Because otherwise, I really don’t know where I would be.
Victoria Volk 9:57
What did healing look like for you?
Phil Cohen 10:01
Healing? Well, you know, like I said, we in our pre interview, I didn’t know, really what I was supposed to do, really, I didn’t know, do I see a therapist? Or what? What kind of therapist? How do I find a good therapist. So I actually Googled how to grieve, because I knew that doing nothing wasn’t going to be the right thing. And I really wasn’t sure what I was supposed to do. And if you google anything around grief, you’re gonna find the five stages of grief. And for me, you know, denial, anger, bargaining depression, when I saw that, it felt like I was doing something wrong, because I had an experienced grief in those stages, or in those ways. So the ultimate healing came from me is from a couple of things, one talking to people, I did go see a therapist. And that was very helpful, both talk therapy and EMDR therapy. But the biggest moment for me was, in one of those moments, when I found myself on the floor curled up in a ball. I saw my son and may people ask me, Did you really see him? I’m not sure. You know, maybe it’s been so similar to yours, but I definitely heard it. And he said, Get up, dad. It’s okay. I’ll see you when you get here. But the way that he said, Get up dad was like, enough already, like you cried, you know, you’ve gone through this, you’ve been doing this for a year and a half. Get up live your life with passion, like you’ve always told me to do. And I’ll see when you get here. And that, at that moment was was a transitional point for me, because I was always focused on myself. You know, I was focused on my own pain, my own shame and worthlessness and guilt. And it wasn’t, it was the moment when I stopped asking myself why me, too, you know, what can I do about this now, that things really began to shift for me? And hearing those words, let it just let me know that my son didn’t want to see me in that state. It’s not the way he’d want me to live my life. So when I talked to people about this, they’ll say, Well, it’s like, he gave you permission. But I feel like, you know, I gave myself permission, he just told me like, just enough already. And when I finally gave myself permission to let go of the worthlessness and the shame and the guilt, I started taking posted notes, and I placed them, you know, my car and my bathroom mirror or my refrigerator, and I’d write things like, I’d give myself permission to heal. And from that moment on, it was a real shift for me, because I started, stopped thinking about myself and started thinking about, Okay, well, what can I do about this now?
Victoria Volk 12:59
Growing up, you said that your son’s that this loss of your son was the first loss that you experienced. So growing up, you didn’t have any losses and grief wasn’t really a topic of conversation in your home?
Phil Cohen 13:14
Yeah, no. So my both my my mom’s parents were gone. Before I was born. My father’s mother was gone before I was born. I did lose my grandfather, but we weren’t very close. So you know, although that was probably my first experience with a direct family member. You know, it wasn’t the extreme amounts of pain that you feel from somebody that you spend every day with, or you see often or a brother or sister. So it’s not that we avoided the discussion, it just it nothing traumatic like that ever happened.
Victoria Volk 13:54
I’m curious if you ever thought because in grief isn’t just about death of a loved one, it can be the loss of a dream, or it really is to the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different and better or more, that can be for relationships with those living, and it can be with your career, or all sorts of things. Did you ever consider or think about, like the loss of not having grandparents really in your life? You said your grandpa was in your life, but you weren’t real close? So I mean, I just think back to my childhood, there’s a picture of me in my classroom. And I it was like Grandparents Day, and I’m looking turning around and on either seat next to me. My classmates both had their grandparent with them. And I was the only kid that didn’t have a grandparent with with them. So did that ever. Was that something that you recognized as a child that you didn’t have your grandparents in your life?
Phil Cohen 14:56
That’s a great question. Yes, you Yes, there definitely were times where I did recognize that I just And don’t get me wrong. I mean, I guess when you when you put it like that I definitely had experienced a lot of grief prior to losing my son. I mean, I’ve lost relationships and, you know, other things that I loved jobs, hopes and dreams, things like that. But none of that. I guess I, I’ve always been fairly resilient, you know, growing up, I just folk say, okay, you know, I’d feel the pain and then immediately ask, Okay, what’s next? What can I do about it? Because if there’s nothing that can be done with the loss of a job, or the loss of a dream, or something like that, you know, then I chose really not to ruminate in it, because a lot of these things like these other decisions, you know, I feel like they do come down to a choice. Yes, we do. We do need to grieve those things and feel the pain. But eventually, we it’s a choice whether we want to live there or not. So, you know, with with everything else prior to losing my son, I felt like I was able to move on fairly quickly. But with my son that was that took me for a big loop, for sure. I’m not sure if I completely answered your question, but I can’t recall ever feeling sad that I didn’t have you know, grandparents, because they’ve always had a lot of friends and a lot of family. So maybe not knowing what I didn’t wasn’t missing, potentially was part of that.
Victoria Volk 16:42
In the work that you do with men, particularly how do you help them discern then if what they’re how they’re approaching their grief is, is resiliency, or if it’s a tendency for not just men, but many of us to be like missed, like, go into the Mr. Fixit role, like I’m gonna fix this, and I’m going to, you know, what, I’m getting a
Phil Cohen 17:11
Yes. And I mean, I think that that’s definitely what you know, as men, we do always go into, you know, what can we do to fix it? And, you know, I, I feel like, yeah, as you said, it’s not just men that do that. The biggest thing is, you know, have they taken the time number one to truly feel the pain, because that’s, that’s one of the biggest things that I feel that most men don’t take the time to do. It’s kind of like holding a beach ball underwater, right? Like, you could do it. And you could do it for a while. But eventually, it’s going to find its way out to the surface. And sometimes the harder we push it down, and the further we push it down, the faster and harder it comes up, you’re not going to avoid it, you’re not going to escape it and you can’t insulate yourself from it, it’s going to have to be addressed at some point. So you know, but most people have a tendency to, to run from it, you know, and there’s a, there’s a, there’s kind of a great metaphor for this, one of my friends was telling me about where he lives in Colorado, near the Rocky Mountains. And I don’t know if you know this, but you know, Colorado is one of the only places where both buffaloes and cows can coexist. And, you know, we all we all have storms right there storms are going to come. But the choice is the choice that we have is, what are we going to do about them? How do we respond to those storms. So and what these two creatures do when this with the storms is quite interesting. Cows, when typically, generally, the storms will come from the West, and head towards these. And cows will when they sense the storm, they will start running east away from the storm. And if you know anything about cows, you know that they’re not very fast. So they want to running with the storm that ultimately maximizing their time, then the pain and the frustration that they have in that store. And I feel like as humans, we often do the same thing, right? We run away from these things that trials, tragedies and transitions as opposed to facing them. Below. buffalos do is quite unique to the animal kingdom. When buffaloes sense the storm coming from the west, they hide behind a ridge and when it rolls over the crest of the mountaintop, they turn and and run through the storm they run at the storm, ultimately minimizing their pain in time and frustration in the storm. And I think it’s just a great metaphor because although we all have storms in our life, it’s just a matter of how what we choose to do when we’re faced with them. And you know, I’m not saying that when a storm comes especially like losing a child, you turn it face it and just run through it. You have to feel that pain And at some point, at some point, you’re you have to make a decision if you want to stay there.
Victoria Volk 20:07
How in that year and you said it was about a year and a half where it was just really difficult and challenging after your son passed? What? How was grief manifesting in your life during that time.
Phil Cohen 20:18
It was a lot of feelings of worthlessness. A lot of feelings of guilt things I wish I could have done differently. Feeling like I wasn’t able to even protect my only son. So you know, what good, am I just tremendous amounts of tears. And because of the fact that everything played out on national news and social media while this search went on, I didn’t really even want to go outside. You know, I wanted to stay inside it. Because I would remember I know, and I recall several times where people were like, pointing and looking at me, and saying, oh, you know, that’s the guy who lost his son at sea. And I remember thinking like, well, what’s a man who lost his son at sea supposed to look like, you know, like, what? Am I supposed to walk around with my head down crying? You know? I didn’t know what to do. I really didn’t. I was completely and utterly lost. Having no idea what my next steps should be.
Victoria Volk 21:28
I can’t imagine it’s, I mean, when we typically have a loss, we don’t have it in the public eye. Right? And so I can’t imagine what that would have felt like to feel like your grief is under scrutiny. Really, you probably felt like, I mean, from what you’ve described, like, you didn’t know, am I doing this wrong? Should I be doing this a different way? Like, it would be very confusing and overwhelming, I’m sure.
Phil Cohen 21:58
I was, and you know, even after even after, you know, hearing those words from my son, I remember thinking, okay, you know, maybe a couple of years, two and a half years later, I, again, didn’t want to post anything on social media. My, I remarried about three years ago, and my, my wife and I took a trip to Italy. And I was, we were enjoying ourselves. But I didn’t even want to post a picture of myself with any type of smile, or showing that I was doing something at a fear of people thinking, like, how could he be having fun? Like, how could he be out living his life, you know, after losing his only child, and just the fear of what other people might think. But, you know, my belief is that we don’t have to stay there, that that is a choice, that is a choice. And I believe that I know, with absolute confidence and conviction that my son would not want me to be in that situation. And I believe that most of the people who’ve lost somebody, the one that they lost would also probably tell them to get up too. So at some point, like I said, it really does become a choice. And then, you know, how do we then take that first step, and then the next and then the next to be able to try to come back to an some semblance of a normal life?
Victoria Volk 23:23
So what did that look like for you processing the guilt? And the shame and the feeling of scrutiny? Like, what did that look like?
Phil Cohen 23:35
What did it look like? You know, a lot of it, a lot of it was internal, you know, a lot of it was my own thoughts. And, and asking myself, you know, is that true? You know, there was, there was nothing that anybody could have done in that moment, you know, other than maybe had locked my son up in a room, you know, which obviously, nobody’s going to do. But so, really, you know, the, the first step for me was a decision to decide, I said, Okay, you know, I don’t want to live my life like this, because if I do, this is not a life worth living, you know, to be just constantly ruminating and thinking about all the things that I could have done differently or ways that maybe I could have stopped it or how maybe some other people made mistakes and things like that. So that was getting me nowhere. So my first my first step was okay, I want to pursue a life of healing. And, and then, you know, to find some way to help other people. And then, you know, I cultivated community, you know, I found people that would support me, and to be there with me and to help me and you can’t go through something like this alone. You can’t you can’t you can’t do it alone. You need somebody there to help you and to pick you up, and not to fix it, just to be there and to listen and to let you cry and to just sit there with you. You know, I did find EMDR therapy helpful, but it didn’t remove all of the pain, you know, wasn’t able to remove and I don’t think the pain will ever fully go away. And, you know, part of like, in the TED, my TED talk I talked about, yes, I did finally reach a point of acceptance and even found some gifts beyond acceptance. But even like, last night, or the night before, my wife and I were watching a movie, I don’t remember the name. It’s with Mark Wahlberg, where his son committed suicide, and he decides to walk across the country, to, you know, talk about bullying. And eventually, I think he gets hit by a truck and he dies. And just going through that watching the movie, I was in tears, I was in tears, because, you know, it makes me sad to kind of go back to some of those moments of losing my son. But all that’s okay. It doesn’t mean that I’m not healing properly or not grieving properly. I think grief is something that, you know, we move back and forth through it’s not, you know, specific actual steps that we go through, even though there are similar stages, I think that we all experience, but there isn’t one route. And I don’t think that there is a place of acceptance, and then we’re done. You know, we always we’re constantly moving back and forth through this forever.
Victoria Volk 26:34
Yeah, it’s an ebb and flow. And I think as we grow and evolve, as does our grief, and in the follow up takeaways and reflections episode, I’ll dig more into that five stages and talk a little bit about that. And so we won’t cover that here. But we did briefly talk about ahead of time, though, that it wasn’t a linear process. And it wasn’t there’s many more stages in quotations than just the five it’s society really has, in pop culture has really driven home, the idea of the five stages, but really, it wasn’t the intention of Elisabeth Kubler Ross’s work and yeah, anyway, that’s for another episode. But I want to ask if your son was in front of you, you had one day with him, he was just in front of you, what what would you want to say to him?
Phil Cohen 27:42
You know, I like to journal. And I would let these free flowing thoughts come up as they did nothing in a particular order, or that it would make sense. And one time, I found myself writing a letter to Perry, I go back, and I visit it often. And I’m not sure that it will ever be done. So I’ve kind of had this conversation in my mind. The first thing I’d want to say is I’m sorry, ma’am. I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to save him as his father, you know, that, to me, that was the most amount of pain is, you know, if, if they were if the boys were lost in a field or somewhere on land, I know, I’d be able to go to where they were and, and walk a grid pattern until I found them. But in the Atlantic Ocean, you know, it was nearly impossible to know where to start. But still, you know, I know that. I know that he must have been thinking or wishing that I was there to be able to save him. And so, you know, I would tell him that I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to save him. I told parents that I loved him so often, to the point where I would say guess what power and you say, Yeah, Dad, I know you love me, you know, so, but I would still I would still tell him how much I love him and how much I wish that I would be able to experience all of the things that a parent should be able to experience with their child, you know, his first girlfriend. His first love getting married, going to school first job, and just being there as a dad to be able to give him the advice that I know that I did get AND and OR I would have wished I would have gotten, you know at his age and years past. How much I miss him. I miss him so much in others. Perry’s Perry’s natural state was one of them. Laughter he’s such a happy kid. And I miss hearing that laugh, his laugh was infectious. And when he gave you a hug, it wasn’t like a weak hug. It was a strong firm hug. And I miss feeling his arms are wrapped around me. I guess you know, things like that.
Victoria Volk 30:28
Make me cry. I’m a mom. I’m a parent and I teenagers and so my heart just goes out to you. Because I’m know that pain probably will never go away that that sadness. Not that empty seats always there. And those milestones are never to be enjoyed. So thank you for sharing about Perry. In that way, have you been back to Florida?
Phil Cohen 31:02
I have several times. I’ve been to the Jupiter inlet. The other the other my son’s close friend, family, they put up a, a monument, a statue out there, of mom and dad are kinda like, I believe they say it’s not supposed to be them. But it looks like them, have them kind of going like this with their hands above their eyes kind of searching out into the sea. There’s no plaque or anything like that. It’s just a memorial to them. You know that when I stand there, you know, I really feel it, because that’s, that’s the last place that they were seeing. There’s video cameras, their boats going in and out of the Jupiter inlet. So that was, you know, the last time they were actually seen alive. And my parents lived there. And they live on the ocean. So I go out there. And I, you know, I talked to Perry every day in the shower in my car. And I remember, in the first like, the first couple of weeks, my my brothers, I have two older brothers among the youngest of three, they were there with me the whole time. And my oldest brother. He’s definitely a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but you know, super positive kind of person. And I remember him saying to me, it’s like, let’s go on the ocean. And this was like, maybe 10 days, so a couple of weeks after the boys went missing. And I remember saying, I remember like almost getting an angry at him. Like how could you know, like, No, I don’t want to. I remember saying to him, I know what you’re trying to do. Like, almost got mad at him for doing that. And I know, I heard in my in my head also like, go ahead, Dad. You know, like, I don’t know, there’s something about I’ve always been this way. Like there’s there’s a there’s a quote, I’m not sure who said it. But it’s it goes. If you can’t, then you must. So if anytime something ever comes up, that brings up a level of fear for me, I do it. Because on the other side of fear is always something powerful. There’s always some kind of gift on the other side of fear. So we went in, I went in the ocean, and I broke down. I mean, I mean, I broke down big time. But there’s healing that comes from that, you know, there’s healing that comes from facing your storms, you know. So, and when I do because my parents are there, I go there and I sit on the beach, and I talked to Barry, even though I know he’s not there. But since I have an idea of where they went missing, you know, you kind of feel like they’re there with you. Like he’s there with me. So yeah, I go back often, and I don’t let anything like that. Get in my way, like things that I want to, you know, I don’t let anything I don’t do or not do anything out of fear. You know, I will let something if it scares me. I feel like it’s something I need to approach and, you know, like giving my TED Talk and and, you know, working with other people and sharing my story right now, you know, this is this is probably like the fourth podcast I’ve ever been on. I still I’m still working my way through it. You know, but I’m here because I want people to hear my story. I want people to know that regardless of what they went through, that they can heal, that healing is attainable. And there are things you can do. But the first thing you have to do is choose because I would say that there’s over the past six and a half years Here’s I’ve had tons of conversations with people who have lost children. And maybe not somebody who’s just lost the children, maybe someone who’s lost a wife, or husband or somebody that’s really close to them, or somebody will connect me with them. And I’d say about 10% of the people I speak to, will say something like, Phil, I don’t care what you have to say, I lost the most precious person in my life. So there’s nothing you could tell me, show me talk to me about my life is over. And I don’t really even want to be here right now. So if that’s the stance that you choose, then you’ll likely never heal until you decide that healing is something that you want to pursue. So, you know, I made that decision. About a year and a half into it. I wish I would have made it earlier. But, you know, I remember, I think it’s, um, I don’t remember her name. It’s on the tip of my tongue. There was a young lady through COVID.
Phil Cohen 36:04
She’s in her husband lost his leg. He was a he was a is a theatre actor. And she was posting, you know, pretty girl, blonde hair. I can’t believe I forgot her name. But she went on the view, or one of these talk shows, and she got scorned, because she was smiling, and she was laughing. And she was, she was having a good time, you know, that people were saying it’s only been a few months, how could you be out there laughing and having a good time? You know, and I think that there’s like this negative taboo thing that like, if something bad happens to you that you have to lock yourself up in a room for years, you know, and that’s, that’s, that’s false. That’s false.
Victoria Volk 36:47
Criticized for that.
Phil Cohen 36:50
What you mean for locking yourself up? Right? It’s true. I’ve lost friends and family members. Because of this. People have said in a film, so it’s just too sad for me to be around you. Which is, like a kind of like a double whammy, right? Like it’s too sad for them. To be around lease
Victoria Volk 37:09
Are very common. Yeah. What you’ve shared, I probably answered the question already. But I was going to ask you, what is your grief taught you and and you’ve kind of shared a lot there. But is there anything specific that you would like to say to that? What,
Phil Cohen 37:26
Yeah yeah. It’s taught me a lot. Actually. You know, I think that you’ve you’ve really, when you go through something like this, you really figure out who you are. When you ask yourself, when you stop asking, why, why me? And you start asking we okay, what can I do about it? Now, I realized that I’m a lot stronger than I thought I was. And I also that there’s nothing at this point in my life, that can happen to me, that was worse than what already happened. It’s no like, I can take on anything, I’ve made it through the worst, what some, many medical professionals would consider the worst possible thing that can happen to a human being it was losing a child, and I don’t want to say made it through, but you know, I’m not living a life of despair. And now, you know, God’s got me on a path to help other people get through that healing. And I just love, there’s nothing more satisfying. So I’ve owned a couple of businesses, I’ve been fairly successful on a professional level. And the money and the success is so much lower on the totem pole, compared to somebody coming up to you or, and saying, Thank you, thank you for spending the time with me, thank you for that thing that you said, or that thing that you shared, because it’s helped me heal. Like, to me, that is the highest level of appreciation, the highest level of a gift for me is to know that, I guess it’s, you know, mid taking this thing, and making some sort of good out of it.
Victoria Volk 39:07
In the work that you do with men now, can you talk a little bit about the grief continuum and what that looks like?
Phil Cohen 39:15
Sure. So, you know, it does touch kind of, you know, a little bit, you know, on the five stages part of it, but, you know, it’s it’s when I had no idea what I was supposed to do. I go actually Googled how to grieve. I didn’t know what I was supposed to do. And, you know, I saw the five stages and I felt like I think I must be doing something wrong, because I didn’t experience grief like that. So, you know, you may start at denial or anger or bargaining or depression, but you also may be somewhere in guilt or worthlessness or revenge. And going through this process, you know, on the other side of acceptance So everything if you think about the continuum, with all the negative things being on the left, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, worthlessness, guilt, shame, all of those things, all those things are all about you. They’re all it’s you focused on you, then it’s only when you start thinking about other people, and how you can help other people or even those being your family, and those other people that who are around you, that things start to shift a little bit. So, it’s mostly it’s mostly, you know, also getting guys to, to take the time to feel the pain, especially like men who have lost children. And I don’t know if we talked about this earlier or during, during our time live, but when men lose a child, generally, as a society, we flock around the mothers, which I totally understand, I totally get. And there’s not a lot of attention, if you go to, I’ve been to several, if you go to a few happened, not that you’ve want to but if you happen to find yourself at a funeral for a child, you will see this played out over and over and over again, how everybody will be flocking around mom, and dad’s kind of off to the side. And it’s been my experience that the last person men want to share their pain and their grief with is their wife, you know, they want to be there support them, you know, they want to be their rock, they want to be, you know, their support system. So a lot of times they don’t get to, to let it all out and to face that the vulnerability, you know, that it takes to make it through feeling that pain. So I work with them on on to helping them to access that because you can’t, you can’t avoid it, you can avoid it and, and I know even you know from from with my my new wife, she over the years, she every time Perry’s birthday repair his birthday or his death day. Or the day that he went missing. You know, I know, she would have say asked me questions like, how do you want to spend this day? You know, what, what she was really asking is, you know, can we do it together? You know, how can I be there with you to support you. And I always in the past, I always went and sat by the ocean and cried my eyes out by myself because I was I was afraid to let her in on some of that, you know, to let her you know, see me really ugly cry. And this this past year would have would have been Perry’s 21st birthday. And I decided to try something new. So we went to a local restaurant, and we toasted Perry and, you know, as as going through that process, of course, you know, I started to break down and then you know, she didn’t say anything, she wasn’t trying to fix it. She wasn’t trying to she did say, you know, we did talk about some of the times where Perry would make me laugh and some of the funny things that he did. And those things are extremely healing, to be able to speak about and let out, especially with somebody who’s loves you, and who wants to be there for you. So to any any man that might be listening to this podcast, if there’s somebody out there that you know, that you lot that loves you and that you trust, and is trying to express an interest in spending one of these days with you. And you’ve been hesitant because you don’t want to let them fully in or you don’t want them to see you ugly cry or you don’t, you don’t really know what you’re supposed to do. Let them in, try something new. Let them in and spend some time with them. And I bet you’ll find it as healing as I did.
Victoria Volk 43:51
One of the myths of grief because so many of us are taught these lessons in childhood that you know, that’s it’s emulated for us because grief isn’t generally talked about as we grow up is to be strong. And in a podcast, many podcast interviews at this point, it comes up frequently. But just yesterday I even brought posed the question like what does it mean to be strong? What’s that even mean? Like what does that look like? There’s no heroism and pretending that you’ve got it put together and that you’re okay. And and really it’s you’re lying to yourself. And that probably does more harm than anything that anyone else, you know, can say to you. Those do harm to mean people say hurtful and harmful things all the time because they don’t know better. They don’t. They haven’t received the knowledge of how to sit with others in their grief. Probably because they haven’t setting their own. So true. Yeah. So I think for men specifically, it was actually two were it was military, we were taught in the military audience, and that’s very much so. You know, the time. Yeah, be tough. And that’s where a lot of men that they have that upbringing of believing need to be tough. Yeah,
Phil Cohen 45:23
I think I think we’ve all been basically I’m, I’m 50 years old. So I know, you know, I feel like it’s changing a little bit now. But, you know, I was basically brainwashed to believe that Real men don’t cry, you know, but the we don’t, we don’t talk to each other about our emotions, or even go and seek therapy, you know, we’re supposed to just tough it out and suck it up. And that is the farthest thing from the truth that that strategy doesn’t work with grief, because you’re never going to be able to outrun the memories, you’re never going to be able to, to, you know, outflank them. So it’s only by sitting in your grief and talking with it, and talking with people and facing it, that you then begin to connect to their memory memories and the reminders, because they’re never going to go away. So I agree with you. And I think that I think I think it takes a lot more strengths, to be vulnerable, and to share your story and to cry in front of people than it does to not because I feel like it was a lot it was, it was a lot easier for me to push people away, and just do it all alone. And so it took me stepping into a discomfort, you know, to talk with people openly and honestly and vulnerably. And I think that more men need to realize that especially through grief that you you can’t deny it, you can’t run away from it. And if you want to truly heal, let people in and talk about it. Because otherwise, it’s just it’s going to come up in some negative way eventually.
Victoria Volk 47:09
How has this because you know, with a family unit, everyone grieves, how has this reshaped your relationships? And I mean, do you talk is grief more openly talked about within the family now? Has that changed? A little bit?
Phil Cohen 47:26
Yeah, you know, but, you know, it was it was me that that made that happen. I’m not saying that, you know, I take credit, it’s that people will avoid it. You know, if my parents my brother’s family, they, they avoid it. And I even notice it, like, you know, in just day to day conversations with those people that know me and know my story. You know, they’ll say, if they’re talking about their child, they’ll kind of change the conversation because they don’t want to make me feel bad or something like that, you know, I’ll say, oh, no, you know, Perry played baseball, do you know, he was left handed, he was a pitcher. And he did this. And he did that. And I openly bring him up in just in conversations I don’t, it’s not something that I want to hide. And I don’t want his memory to be forgotten. You know, and it’s, I look at it as no to, you know, number one, I’m, I’m so thankful and feel blessed for the fact that I was even lucky enough to have a child, you know, I mean, there’s a lot of people out there that that would have trying and trying and can’t even have children. So the fact that I had a child and got to spend 14 and a half amazing years with him, I focus on all of the memories and the good times that we did get to share together because, you know, I do believe that where focus goes energy flows, right. So just like, you know, if you, you stand outside in the sun, you know, that sunshine can cover vast amounts of the earth and you can go outside and you can be stand there and be feel like you’re being wrapped in a warm blanket. Yet, if you take a magnifying glass and you focus in on one specific area, you can start a fire, you know, and I believe that that’s true of our thoughts as well. It’s what we choose to focus on that where the energy goes. And I focus on all of the good things and the good times that I had, as opposed to the why me and why did this happen to me? And why didn’t this person do that? And all of the negative aspects of it, it really, it’s a conscious decision that you have to make. So I some people I can tell you even look surprised like that I’ll bring up his name, you know, in conversation. But why? Why yes, this thing happened. There’s nothing that I can do about that. Like, if there was a way for me to bring him back. I would do it. If there was a way for me to trade places with him in that moment. I would do it. But that’s not possible. You know, there’s I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but there’s that old Chinese tale about the magical mustard seed. Have you ever heard that?
Victoria Volk 49:57
I haven’t, but will you share it?
Phil Cohen 49:59
Here? I will try my best. I don’t have it memorized. But it’s something like this, where there was a woman who lost her only child. And she went to some sage and said, What magical potions or incantations that you have to bring my son back. And he told her that he wanted to encourage go to find a mustard seed from a home that has never known sorrow. So off she went, and she she saw a big match. And she went, she knocked on the door. And she said, she said, I need to get a mustard seed from a seed from a home that is no no sorrow. Is this such a place? And they said, Oh, no, you’re in the wrong place. This family has no sorrow. And she realized that what she went through, she was a she could possibly help these fans, this family. So she stayed with them for a while and help them and then off to the next place that she went, and then the next and the next. And she never found that magical mustard seed, but in her in her aura home that had never known sorrow. But in her travels, she was able to help so many people, she eventually forgot about finding that magical mustard seed. And I feel like I’m on a very similar path. You know, at that I’m finding that I’m put in positions where people have been through something, mostly the loss of a loved one, and through conversations and through walking them through specific, you know, diving into certain areas. That, yeah, I feel like that, that the I’m on a very similar path is that as that woman who was looking for that, that magical mustard seed, you know, that God, the universe, whatever you want to call, it, has me on this path, and has given me the strength to be able to have these conversations and to help other people navigate their own grief. And to me, there is nothing more rewarding than somebody helping somebody through that process. I’m not saying that, you know, everybody I talked to I can get them to the point where they’re happy or something like that. And the fact is, I say this to several people, I don’t I don’t have a master’s degree in psychology. But I have a PhD and experience, you know, and the heart to serve other people. And through that, you know, through my experience, I feel like I’ve been gifted an ability to be able to do that.
Victoria Volk 52:22
That’s wonderful. What is one tip that you would give, I mean, you gave a lot of tips, but is there one tip that you would give someone who’s a parent, specifically who’s lost a child? Today, listening,
Phil Cohen 52:36
Most of the parents that I’ve spoken to have lost a child hold on to very similar things that I was holding on to, which was the guilt and the shame and all the things that they could have done. I think that, for me, everything changed when I gave myself permission to heal. You know, that may be a month that may be six years, I think it’s going to be different for different people. And I believe that their child would likely want them to get up to write, they wouldn’t want them to live in a life of misery and despair. But at some point, you have to give yourself permission to heal. And whether it’s as simple as something as using post it notes or writing something in places where you can see them, allowing yourself to give yourself permission. At some point, you have to make that decision that you want to pursue healing. Because without that, nothing is going to work.
Victoria Volk 53:37
I had a guest recently say you can be a griever and you still can go to Disneyland.
Phil Cohen 53:42
Love that. I love that. Because you’re always going to be a Griever we’re always going, that’s not like I’ve got I can’t say all I’ve gotten through it, or I’ve overcome it. You know, it’s, it’s how you integrate grief into your life, I believe, because it’s not something that if you look at it as something you’re gonna have to overcome or break through, you might be setting yourself up for failure, because you’re, you’re always going to find those memories, you know, and those reminders, they’re going to come up and and when they do take the time to feel though don’t don’t run away from them. That would probably be the other thing that would probably be even a big bigger thing is to don’t avoid the pain. Don’t push it down. Don’t run away from it. There’s times I mean, I have pictures of my son all over the house of pictures of me and him and pictures of just him. I mean, not like all over like where it’s everywhere but in some rooms in the house because I want to see him I want to see his face, you know, and it’s not something that I look at it and it makes me want to break down. But that’s you know, I think it’s also my perception of it. You know, the way that I choose to look at it, but is that to at some point they have You have to take the time to kind of sit in the pain of what happened and recognize what happened. Because that’s where, for me anyway, the true healing came from.
Victoria Volk 55:10
In the first early months or weeks. Did you want to when you realized he’s not coming home? Like he’s gone? Did you want to pack everything up? And do away with it? Like, what? Or did or you know, because sometimes parents will keep everything just as it was. And then there might be parents that just want to pack everything up and have it gone. What was that? For you?
Phil Cohen 55:38
No, yeah, no, I, I didn’t pack everything up in one gone that. Because for me, that would be like, almost like, I don’t know, I don’t want to say you’re wrong. You know, I think I don’t think there’s a wrong way or right way to do this, really, you know, I think people have to do what’s going to what’s going to work for them. But I would never want, I want his memory around, you know, I want the little things, whether it be his baseball glove, or the necklace that he made for me when he was eight years old. I like I like having those things around, you know, because they are reminders of His love, you know, and, and that he was here. So I never, I never felt the need to pack it up and put it away so that I can kind of box up the pain and move it out of my life. I mean, yes, there was a point where, okay, well, you know, I got to clean up his room or take certain things out and move them away. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t because of an effort to try to get away from it. You know, it was more of just like, this, just, this is the right time for me to do that. And for some people, if that’s a month, if that’s what they feel that they have to do, as long as it’s, as long as it’s not coming from a place of avoidance, that’s the biggest piece, I think the point that I want to make is that if you’re trying to box up the things or hide the things away so that you can not see them, because they make it too painful for you. I think you’re kind of missing the point. It’s kind of it’s going through that pain, that where the healing eventually comes from.
Victoria Volk 57:11
There might be people listening who lost somebody that like you don’t have a grave site to go to, particularly where they know that their loved one is right. I believe for me, that would add another layer of grief. That’s why I asked you if you’ve ever been back to juniper. Yeah. What would you write juniper? to Jupiter? What did I say Juniper, juniper. Okay, well, that’s an essential oil. Okay, let me rewind. Okay, what would you say to parents who like you don’t have, like a cemetery or grave site to go to where they know that that’s where their loved one is at? Because I imagine for me, that would be another layer of grief, to experience and go through and, and have to address and that’s why I’d asked you if you had gone to back to Jupiter. What would you say to those parents? And how did you kind of work through that yourself?
Phil Cohen 58:16
That’s a great question. That really is a great question. And that’s something that I I struggled with for a while, but in my heart, whether it’s a graveyard, or a monument, whatever it might be, they’re not there. I mean, yes, their body or their remains may be in the ground, but their spirit is not there. You know, that’s just the container, and I get why it may be important to I always went to the ocean, you know, that was where, and I still do, I still do I go sit, you know, on the coast, because I feel like that was the last place that he was seen. But I feel like it’s more about it, even on a daily basis, you know, I talked to Perry, I don’t feel like I need to go to a specific place. But if the fears if somebody’s struggling with that, you know, there, you don’t necessarily have to build the statue, like I said, the, the parents of the other child when they put the statue there so that they can have someplace to go to, for me, you know, I, I’m in the process of writing a book, I did my TEDx talk. And there’s other things that you can do with your pay, you know, to or what you’ve been through what the lessons that you’ve learned from what you’ve been through, that might serve you just as well, but I don’t know that I have the best answer for that. You know, I wish they were saying I wish I could say, well, you could do this, this or this for me. You know, I was, you know, getting up on stage, you know, at a TEDx event and sharing my story, in an effort to help other people see other people heal, that I felt is was kind of like a way for me to give back. And the book that I’m writing, same thing kind of a way to, you know, to give Back, or, you know, you can do something like what the other parents did, you can build something or put a monument or do something that you feel is what helps you heal. But even if there was an actual physical place for me to go, I likely would go, I likely would go, because but I know that he’s not there. You know, I, so for me, it’s more I feel like the conversations and my, my the way that I honor and respect him is by by sharing his story and sharing his memory. And also now what I’m doing, I’m trying to help other people.
Victoria Volk 1:00:38
Think it circles back to what you’ve said about integrating your grief and integrating the experience into your life and how it’s shaped your life now. And you alluded to it earlier about your faith, I think that plays that’s greatly influences how people respond to their grief, in feeling like they have a spiritual connection in some way to their departed loved one. And, you know, I think that yeah, there’s a lot of influences there, I think, but I was just curious how you in particular, and what you would say to people, if they had that question for you, if they’re a grieving parent, too, because I think if I’m, if I’m wondering, I’m sure someone listening is wondering, and so that’s why I like to ask, and
Phil Cohen 1:01:26
That’s why I feel like my, you know, my TEDx or, and or my book that’s coming out will be sort of my monument, it’s not a place that I need to, you know, and the place that I need to visit, that’s sort of the way that the way I look at it is trying to kind of giving, giving back in a way,
Victoria Volk 1:01:41
Are you finding your book writing therapeutic for you?
Phil Cohen 1:01:44
Very, yeah, very therapeutic. And I mean, and, and, but ultimately, everything, everything that I do like, is really just to help other people. Really, that’s my, my biggest goal is that I just want to give people you know, either an idea or, or a story or something to think about, to let them know that they don’t have to live a life of despair, whether it’s the loss of a child, or the loss of a loved one, and like you said earlier, or they might be a job or a dream, you know, we should all take that time, to grieve and to feel that process. But eventually, at some point, we have to choose, you know, do you want to live there or not?
Victoria Volk 1:02:29
So tell us about your book, when’s it coming out, and where people can find you.
Phil Cohen 1:02:33
I’m, I’m still I’m still in the editing phase, I would like to see it started to come out in the next couple of months. I don’t have a specific date. But I would say sometime, maybe over the next 90 to 120 days, people can visit my website. That’s Phil cohen.com, pH, IL, co H e n.com. And I have a place there where you can book a call with me, I don’t charge I’m not charging you to have a conversation. But I’d love to learn more about what you’ve been through, and maybe any way that I might be able to help you. And if there is, you know, that’s really my main goal through all this is to see if there’s some way that I can help people heal, please reach out and it would be honored to be able to help.
Victoria Volk 1:03:18
Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Phil Cohen 1:03:22
I think you did a pretty good job of asking me all the questions around grief and Healing. And other I can’t really think of anything else.
Victoria Volk 1:03:25
Thank you so much for sharing. I will put all of the links that you mentioned in the shownotes where can people find you on social media? Where is your favorite place to be there?
Phil Cohen 1:03:40
Either on Facebook or LinkedIn are the two places that I’m that I’m active right now.
Victoria Volk 1:03:45
Okay, I will put those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your story and for being here.
Phil Cohen 1:03:51
Thank you very much Victoria for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Victoria Volk 1:03:55
And remember, when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love.
Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast |
Phoebe Leona | I’m Only Grieving Fridays
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Like many kids, Phoebe grew up in a broken home. Her parents split up when she was 7 and she would remain living with her father until she turned 14. With her own knowing and willpower, she left her father to go live with her grandmother until landing back with her mother.
What she experienced between ages 7 and 14 was a frightening relationship with her father, a Vietnam vet, who was struggling with PTSD along with alcohol and drug abuse. Despite loving her father, she knew wasn’t safe in his care. And, life wasn’t done throwing curveballs Phoebe’s way either. It would be a long journey for her to find her own radiance.
Fast forward to adulthood, she reconnected with her father when he called her one Father’s Day out of the blue, after having been rehabilitated and desiring to build a connection again with his daughter. Only, this newfound connection wouldn’t last; four years later, Phoebe’s father died suddenly of a heart attack in his sleep.
Struggling to cope with the death of her father in that first year, Phoebe made a commitment to herself to only grieve on Fridays. And, this seemed to be working for her a time in her mind until one bright, sunshiny day, after feeling like the fog was lifting, her husband sat her down and said he wanted a divorce.
She would find herself living in Costa Rica, looking for a life reset and to reclaim what she wanted for life as Phoebe 2.0 after grief came like a steamroller, leaving heartbreak in its wake. What followed were a lot of lessons, healing, and a re-discovery process of who Phoebe was before her life fell apart and everything went downhill as a child.
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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of the Unleashed heart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss as a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. If this is your first time welcome, and if you’ve listened before, thank you. Today, my guest is Phoebe Leona. She is a dancer, yoga teacher and transformational guide who helps men and women feel more embodied through somatic movement and expanded awareness practices to become more empowered in who they are, who they’re becoming, and have a greater sense of belonging. She has been a teacher and a guide for most of her life, but it was after a year of extreme loss in 2013, when she found herself in the vast open space in between her old life and a new life that she dove deeply into our practices, and began her company Nomad to help others through their own transitions and spaces in between. Throughout that time, Phoebe has developed her own movement, somatic practice movement 109 for students to fully embrace the freedom of moving in their bodies, transform old unhealed patterns and reclaim the vibrations and stories they want to bring to life. Baby also finds joy in sharing her story to help others in their own healing. You can learn more about Phoebe’s story on her TED Talk, her podcast the space in between. And there are two upcoming books due to launch in 2021. Ah, no more a multi author book and embodied radiants for solo book by Grace point publishing. Thank you so much for bringing your story and your background to my listeners today.
Phoebe Leona 2:23
Oh, you’re so welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me here today. Victoria, such a joy to be able to be with you
Victoria Volk 2:29
Talking about the vibration and energy and finding a movement practice that we enjoy isn’t can be a struggle for many people and raising my hand right now. I’ve often struggled with trying to find something I enjoy. And yet I don’t get bored with and yet serves me wants to be in pain when they’re moving. You know, I really want to dig into that at some point. But what led you to this work you mentioned in the bio losses in 2013. So let’s start there.
Phoebe Leona 3:05
Sure, yeah. So 2013. I’ll go back a little bit prior to that. So my childhood, I was primarily raised by my father, my parents split up when I was seven. And when my parents split up, I lived with my father until I was about 14 years old. Now, my father had done two tours of Vietnam. And at that point, they didn’t really know anything about PTSD. So he had been going to the VA many times in the early 80s, mid 80s, and basically saying, you know, something’s wrong with me. Now. During that time, he decided to basically take care of himself with hard, very hard drugs. And so he was in and out of rehab for the better part of my like late teens, or late, like pre pubescent years. And I made the choice because it’s getting so bad with his relapsed with the rage with the flashbacks. And we didn’t have all of those words. At that time. We didn’t know what a flashback was, he was just not there. So there was nothing that made sense. And it was becoming very, very unsafe for me. So I decided to leave when I was 1414, almost 15 And I went to live with my grandmother, I moved back into live with my mom, fast forward, you know, he was no longer in my life at that time. And he had disappeared, not knowing if he was dead or alive or homeless or you know, in the hospital or in jail. So there was a grieving that was happening during that period of my life. But I didn’t. I didn’t know that.
Phoebe Leona 4:35
It wasn’t as you’re holding the space for people to empower them and leaning into that grief. I didn’t have that space. It was just okay, let’s grow up now. Right. Dad’s not in the picture. Let’s just, you know, put on our big girl pants and go out there and, you know, become the woman that I’m supposed to be. So there were no there weren’t a lot of conversations that were happening for me to understand that I was grieving. And then when I entered into early adulthood, I met someone in, in college and we ended up getting married at 20 at 28. And then when I was, I think like 32 years old, my father called me on Father’s Day. And he had been rehabilitated, he was actually arrested for drug possession and intent to sell. And it was actually the biggest gift because he was thrown into jail. And he started having conversations with, I’m not sure who but someone in there, and they said, Listen, you have a PTSD problem, and we need to send you to a VA. And so he went on his path of recovery, he became sober, I think he was sober for about 11 years before he entered my life again, he was heavily medicated. So he was that he was rehabilitated, he was sober, yet he was completely numbed out on life thing, another blessing happened for him was that he almost died of lithium poisoning. And basically, that was his 22nd time. So when he was in the hospital this second time, and basically on his deathbed, without me knowing any of this, he he got out of whatever that was, it came across and said, I don’t want this anymore. I don’t want any more, as he called them head drugs. And he just had a cloud lifted. And he remembered, remembered who I was, he remember that he had this beautiful daughter, and he wanted to reconnect. And a few months after, you know, he got out of the hospital, and he was getting healthier. He called me on Father’s Day in 2009. And it was really quite beautiful. I mean, there were a lot of layers to that, as you can imagine, there were a lot of questions that I had. And there was, again, a little bit of the grief of the loss time, right for both of us. But again, we didn’t really speak into that we didn’t speak into that piece, we really just started in the present moment, we had four really beautiful years together. I was, as I said, before I was married and we were living in New York City and my father was in Connecticut. So we decided to move a bit out of the city so that I could see him more we moved to the Hudson Valley. And it was sort of like everything’s clicking into place my Daddy’s back in my life, I’m you know, doing the thing that people usually do when they get a little bit older, move out of the city settled down, buy a house, you know, have a have a stable job, because I’d been a dancer kind of running around being in this chaotic city life for so many years. So everything sort of was just like click, click, click into place. So 2013 My on January 8, my father died, quite suddenly died in a sleep of heart attack. And it was it just it shook me it was it was all of the grief, not just in that time and space. But all of the grief that I hadn’t experienced when he had left the first time or when I had left that first time. And, and the conversations we didn’t have I was now grieving now why didn’t I say this or that or, and so that cracked me wide open, I probably had, you know, and your listeners who were here, they probably know that, you know that first month is just kind of putting together the funeral and getting, you know, taking care of the estate. It’s just that, you know, you’re going in that functional mode of just how do I survive, right. And then once that, that service happens, I think that’s when we can we drop down. And so that second month was really challenging. It was a really dark, dark time for me. And I had basically said to myself, because I had you know, I was running a yoga program. And I said, Okay, I’m going to grieve on Fridays
Phoebe Leona 8:47
With grief, and I said, listen, you’re getting in my way, you’re getting in the way of my marriage, you’re getting in the way of my job. And you know, I’m serving people here, I can’t just break down and cry in my yoga class in front of my students. I have to keep this together, you know, and is sort of that old story that I had told myself from, you know, previous loss. Basically, I don’t have anything to do my husband in the city, I can grieve whatever that wants to look like. So I might get my journals out and write for her. I might watch a movie that makes me laugh or makes me cry. I might look at pictures, I might tear them up. I might just sit and stare at the fire. I mean, it was just would that wildcard whatever needed to come out. I just let it come out. But then the cap had to come back on when the husband came home. And as you can imagine, that didn’t go so well. And so my I was noticing that my husband was coming home later and later on those Fridays. And so I think it was the first week of March where he came home rather late and I just I couldn’t put it together. I was just I sat on the couch I was crying hysterically. He was sitting on the other side of the room on another couch and basically staring at me. And I just kept saying to myself, Why isn’t he coming to me? Why isn’t he putting his arms around me? Why isn’t he? Why can’t he see my pain? Why can’t he be with me? And I somehow find that found my way upstairs into bed. And I will get up the next morning, and I woke up to the sun just beaming on my face. And it was almost like everything just lifted. For this time I woke up, I was like, oh, maybe this is it. Maybe I’m done. And I looked at my phone, the weather, and it said, abundant sunshine. And I was like, Yes, I’m going to choose that. So I got up by went off to work. And I came back thinking I was going to go for a hike with my husband, we’re going to start to make plans for our future, because I was done with this grief. And he sat me down and he said, I want to divorce. And so there was like this whole other layer of grief that that unfolded. So that was the beginning of the grief in 2013. And it’s really been this eight year journey of just making friends with grief. And I really appreciate it. I think you’ve spoken to your 30 year re I don’t remember how you worded it, but you’re a 30 year griever. Is that correct? Is that how you
Victoria Volk 11:20
30 30 plus your Griever? Yeah,
Phoebe Leona 11:22
Great. I agree. Very Yeah. And I think that that’s really important for everybody to understand that it isn’t just what I was saying, Oh, I’m done. Check that off the list. It is it comes in layers. And it’s not linear. It’s, there’s no, there’s no way of really saying, Oh, I’m done grieving. Now. We’re always in that recovery state in some way. And we’ll make it a little bit better some days. Right. So yeah, that’s kind of where it started. To answer your question.
Victoria Volk 11:52
Thank you for sharing. And that is, there’s a lot that’s a lot at one time. I imagine you had other micro losses in between them, because with divorce, you probably had to move. Yeah. All those sorts of things, too, right?
Phoebe Leona 12:07
Oh, yeah, it was. I mean, as I said, that was just the beginning of it. It was like a domino effects. Yes, I did move out of my house. We the divorce went like that. I mean, it was so fast. We had a mediator, it’s very quick in New York. So it happened within three months, we also had a dog that we had to put down, my health was deteriorating, I ended up leaving my job. And it was it was just an all of the other, you know, the micros stuff to go into my dad, I was still packing up his estate and still grieving, you know, the things that I was giving away to his friends are keeping. So there were there were those a lot that was happening. It basically came to a head in October, where that year where I just kept waking up in the morning. And I said and I’d been in the ER twice for for mysterious pain in my body. They thought that it was ovarian cyst, or it was a UTI, they just couldn’t identify exactly what it was. So I just kept waking up in the morning and looking in the mirror and saying, I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t know who I am. I don’t recognize this person. And I texted my mom and I said, I need to come visit you. And she was about four and a half hours away from where I was living. And she said, Yeah, sure, come whenever and I said, I’ll come out this weekend when I’m not working. And then it just within five minutes. That was I’m getting in the car right now. I’m getting in the car right now. I can’t do this anymore. And I got in the car and I drove and I said What am I what am I doing here? And I basically arrived and they said, I have an idea. But you can also I know I’m not in the right state of mind. If if you want to commit me, that’s okay. Like it was to that point where I just thought every choice I’m making is not the quote unquote, right choice right now. But she actually this is where Nomad came out of it. The the business that you were speaking of in the intro, when I was driving, I said, What are the things that I love to do? I have to make a change here. I have to I have to embody my life again, I have to clean my life again. Because everything is just being taken away from me. And I said, Well, what are the things that I love? And I said, I love I love teaching. I still love teaching yoga. And I love I would love to travel more. And so by the time I got to mom’s and I had been sort of playing with these ideas for you know, over the years, but I said, I want to start my own business of a building yoga retreat, and I want to leave my job that was you know, a salary job that was secure and stable was probably I mean, from the outside looking at it was probably the only thing that was stable in my life at that time, but it really wasn’t there was like a lot of, you know, dynamics in that job that weren’t healthy. And she said, Yeah, do it. And they said Are you sure? I’m not crazy, right? And she said, Yeah, you know, do what you need to do, I’ll support you. And I had played with these ideas for a bit of time about what I what I wanted to create for myself, because I was in that place of wanting to empower and reclaim my life after everything was being taken away from me. And those two, those two things were yoga, and traveling. And by the time I got to the, to the other side of the, what I call the space in between drive between the old life and my new life, claiming my new life that she was really, really supportive. And, and that’s what I did. I think I arrived October 20, or 24th. And I gave my notice October 28, which was actually my dad’s birthday. And, and then a year later, is when I launched my business. So I took a bit of time, I went to Costa Rica, I dealt with a lot of shadows there. But it was my reset, you know, and I can talk more into that. But yeah, I had this kind of reset time. And then I came back to New York, and I started my business on his birthday, a year later, which was really quite special and beautiful.
Victoria Volk 16:13
What did it look like when you? First of all, I think here’s what I want listeners to hear is that you decided, you decided that you wanted more for your life, that you weren’t going to be a victim to grief, which it often makes us feel like we don’t have choices like we. And I often say to it, it puts a veil over our face. So when you said you looked in the mirror and you didn’t recognize yourself, that’s many Grievers. That’s, that’s what a lot of people say. But in a different way. Like everyone says the same thing. It’s just different language. But that’s what it does. We can’t we get disconnected from ourselves. Yeah. And so when we look in the mirror, we don’t see ourselves for who we are, who we really are. And we don’t see the potential of who we could be either, when we have all this emotional stuff, unsettled within us. And so what did that look like? What did Costa Rica look like? How did you because you said your health was deteriorating? Then they’re done that grief, it’s, this is what happens in grief. Right? And so what did that rebuild, and reset look like?
Phoebe Leona 17:24
Yeah, before I go there, when I just reflect back what you just said, too, because I think that really is important to highlight that we have those choices, even in the midst of grief. And to kind of tuck into what I said before about how I just, you know, pulled on my big girl pants, and just the grief is not gonna get me there is this there’s this play between both right? It’s this claiming your life, but it’s not. It’s not this avoidance of grief. It’s really what I think of as dancing with it. Like, okay, but I’m going to take the lead right now. And you might take the lead sometimes, but it’s not going to it’s not going to completely take over, like you said the veil. And so yeah, I just wanted to reflect that. So in terms of Costa Rica, so I gave my notice. In the end of October, and I, the next question was was okay, what do I need right now? What do I need right now, because staying in New York winter, and being depressed, I might slit my wrists, like, and I did, like, I just, I mean, I joke about that, but I, I, I didn’t know even though I knew what I wanted, I still wasn’t over that hump of, of recovery to a place that I felt stable enough. So I said, Okay, I need to go somewhere where it’s sunny. And there’s a lot of little logistical things I don’t need to go into but I landed somehow in Costa Rica, in January, like two days before the first anniversary when my father died. And I, I truly believe that he put me in that place. He he put me in that place. A year later, after he died. I just felt it in my bones that you know, there were so many signs and you probably have had this or your listeners have had this where you just you can feel the presence of your lost loved one is, you know, with, you know, interactions with people or, you know, animal totems, or, or, you know, just receiving dreams and, and I had all of that I had all of these signs that my dad was was putting in Costa Rica for a reason. So I had only gone there for the intention of, I think like two weeks, I had learned about this hostel that had yoga and surf and Spanish lessons and I thought, let’s go check out. Let’s go just be in the sun. Be in the ocean. That’ll be very healing for me. And within a week I had met the This man who I swear was brought to me by my father, an older man, he actually had very similar features as him. And it was just this night, he owned a restaurant in town. And we just started talking. And I told him everything. I told him this whole story that I told you, and your listeners, and he called me the next day, and he said, I have a job for you. And I have a place for you to live. And he, he basically, like orchestrated it that day, he took me to show me the place that he’s and he even told me, you know, he showed me two places, and he said, get this second bedroom, because you can rent it out. And it’s not that much more expensive. Is it? Okay, and so and then we had this hug at some point. And he said something like, Oh, it’s so good to feel you. And not like, in a weird, creepy way. It was just like, just like, Dad, I mean, the way that he said it, and the way that he hugged me, I was like, That was that was confirmation that this was my father. And so I ended up staying there for about nine months. And during that time, I had met people that were really loving. And were really allowing me to be me. And I had realized I had not been me for a very long time. I and I was really tracing it back. And I can’t tell you literally, if this is when it happened. But it’s been happening over the last eight years where I realized I had shut the the, you know, when when she walked out that door, when she was 14 years old, when she left her dad, I had left her behind. And and that was the period where I was starting to reclaim her again and check in with her what she loved to do you know what lit her up, but also the shadows that she hadn’t dealt with when she was living with a father who was dealing with, you know, PTSD and drug drug addictions. And so a lot of those shadows came back. And
Phoebe Leona 8:47
It was, it was a beautiful time. I don’t regret it. But it was a really, really hard time. There was a lot of crying. Crying on the beach, there was a lot of dancing though, too. I mean, there was everything. And that’s the, that’s the really interesting thing about grief is that it’s not just what we think about grief is just I sit there and I cry, right? There’s anger too. And I got really angry. I had had a short relationship there. And I was poor guy. I really took all of my anger out that I had for my father I had for my ex husband. And I took it out on this one person. And so I really danced in all of the shadows. But there was also this beautiful joy, like this pure joy that was there too. So I experienced it all.
Victoria Volk 22:40
How did you make that transition then back home? And where was home?
Phoebe Leona 22:46
Yeah, that’s a good question. I’m still kind of figuring that out. I think it was May I had decided, Oh, I’m gonna live in Costa Rica. This is my life. And I came home, I sold everything because I had been subletting my apartment. And I basically said, Okay, I’m doing this, I came back to Costa Rica. And I was like, This is it, this is my home. And immediately Costa Rica was like, Nope, you’re not here anymore. And all of these relationships that I had built, were just breaking. And all of these circumstances that used to flow easily just were like doors closing, Costa Rica is a beautiful, very magical, very spiritual, there’s a vortex that that was very healing for the time and space that I needed. But it was also like, Okay, now you need to go and live your life, it’s time to reintegrate and really claim who you said you were here and explored it, go back to your quote, unquote, full of life and claim it. So I was there for probably may think I came back in August, so a couple of months. And they said, Alright, this is it, you know, I was getting more messages that I needed to start the business in my, in my old community, because I already had a following there. And I was getting clear on what that was going to look like. So home at that time, came back to New York, in the Hudson Valley. And they started teaching at all the studios that I had made connections with over the years and and basically, that’s what happened was, I stepped into that. And then there was like a whole other layer right of that reintegration. So I feel like Costa Rica was another big gap, that big space in between where I was, like, sorting out the old stuff. And then I was bringing it back into this sort of new life that I was still in the old life and a lot of ways, you know, my still is kind of meeting up with my ex husband on a friend, you know, he had already moved on but like we were start trying to handle a friendship that we clearly figured out but that wasn’t healthy. So there was there was just this reintegration and and it probably took about three or four years to find my flooding again, to be really honest.
Victoria Volk 24:56
Yeah, and I think this is the first time I’m the first time I’m going to say this on this podcast of all the conversations I’ve had with people. That sounds really exhausting. I mean, really, it sounds really exhausting. And that’s what grief is. It’s exhausting. And as it is a progress of new chapter after new chapter after New Chapter, but we don’t get there. You don’t get there from from there, right? You don’t get to where you are, by staying where you don’t get where you want to go by staying where you are. Right. And so it is an exhausting, it can feel like an exhausting process along the way. But I think the more in tune, you become with your in with yourself and your energy in your vibration and in in get more aligned, it does flow more easily. It does come more easily. You can lean into that those days in that grief when when they come but they don’t debilitate you, right like they did before. And I think that’s what you mean with the in between it’s, it’s ugly, and it’s messy. But it’s necessary. It really is. I think it’s just part of part of the process. And it’s going to look differently for many people for everybody. And it’s not going to be how many years? 4,5,8, 8 years?
Phoebe Leona 26:32
Since 2013? Yeah, eight years.
Victoria Volk 26:35
Yeah for me, it was seven. You know, and it’s like, one day, I’m like, Oh, I’m sick of feeling this way. And yeah, you know, and then, yeah
Phoebe Leona 26:48
Yeah, um, yeah, and, you know, seven, and I feel like seven for me was the magic number two, and that’s, you know, there’s the idea that all of our cells have regenerated every seven years. So there’s something about that I knew that, that I had that knowledge. But there was this moment where I thought, I think I’m done. And actually, I changed my claim reclaimed my own last name, because I had changed it back to the, you know, my maiden name. And I felt like, I’m done with that part of me, you know, that. And I, we’ve made our mens and now I want to reclaim my own and actually stepped into my own last name at year seven. So
Victoria Volk 27:34
Well, just like there was a podcast episode was Siri, bernson. Medium. And she mentioned the site or life cycle is, yeah, they say seven years, the astrological cycles seven year cycle. So yeah, very fascinating. If you think about it. Yeah. 714. Yeah, pivotal times of my life, too. Right. So yeah,
Phoebe Leona 27:57
It’s chill. Yeah. I have chills thinking about that. Exactly. It’s, yeah, there’s something what I through this whole process, and I think I always was, you know, in tune in some level, but through this whole process of grief, it really, it really confirmed that there’s something bigger going on here. There’s something so much bigger going on here. And you know, what you were just saying about the seven there’s so many truths that we can’t explain how do we like really explain that, right? We have, we figure it out in our brain. So it’s, you know, our cells are regenerating? That’s what science. So there’s, you know, what series was talking about with, you know, the astrology. But yeah, there’s something else going on here. We might, we might have those, those things that tell us and in kind of quantify it and make it make sense of it, but really, we might not ever really know, right? That mystery. And grief is very mysterious.
Victoria Volk 28:57
Yes. Yes. But that’s kind of the beauty in it, too. Because you, you don’t know exactly where it’s going to lead you. Yeah. And you might have an idea in your mind of, you know, if I would have told you, you’re gonna have your own business, like when this first started. Yeah, I would have said to you, you’re gonna have your own business, you’re gonna be doing retreats, and you’re gonna be traveling and yeah. When you were like in the thick of it, you would have been like, Yeah, can we just fast forward to that, please?
Phoebe Leona 29:31
Well, and you know, as you say, that were laughing and I was, and I was thinking to if somebody had said, Oh, you’re gonna end up living in Costa Rica, and I’m like, oh, that sounds really fabulous. Yeah, sure. But it was also really crappy.
Victoria Volk 29:44
Beautiful place, but
Phoebe Leona 29:45
In a beautiful place. Yeah. So we don’t know. We really don’t know and to just, I don’t know it sounds silly, but to just keep going, you know, on those days, and it’s not, it’s not in a place to avoid cuz just to say, Okay, let’s just keep going, there’s something else pulling me forward, there’s something some reason why I’m going through this loss right now. And maybe it’s for a deeper healing within myself. And or maybe it’s, I have a purpose to help others like you, right? You’re holding space for us Grievers. And you know, whether we’re sitting in front of you speaking or someone’s listening, you might have had to go through that, so that you’re here holding the space for us. And, and, you know, I have, I’m writing my, as you said, in the introduction, I’m writing my book. And it’s, it’s a lot of my story. It’s a lot of the, you know, I write letters to different emotions, and one being, I have a big one on grief. And it’s, I got really angry when I started to get to the realization that I was going to share this story with people because I’m, you know, I’m sharing a lot with you here. But there’s also a lot more to the story that we can’t put in, you know, however long we’re here today. But I really opened my heart and soul up into this book and reveal things that I haven’t even revealed to people who are really close to me and my family are people that you know, my dear friends, and I got really angry, because I was like, Why did this have to happen to me, in order for me to help people, but when it comes down to it when I get to that really dark, deep place within me, and I get really sad and angry, and I go, okay, but there is a trust there is something bigger going on here. And and then I get a message from somebody, you know, Oh, I saw your poster. I heard you on this podcast, and you go, okay. This is an ego. This is like, this is truly. Okay. I have to keep going. So I just wanted to speak into that a little bit.
Victoria Volk 31:55
I use the Five Minute Journal and the quote, or the thing today is the secret of happiness is to find something more important than you are and dedicate your life do it. Oh, I got chills. Like Dan. Yes. The Dennett made me think of that and purpose through the pain you often hear sometimes. But in that process of unraveling. That’s what I like to call it for me an unraveling. What were some of the things that well, what’s one tip that you would give others that are going through that unraveling?
Phoebe Leona 32:37
Yeah, well, there’s so many. Well, you know, I’ll bring it to because you spoke You spoke earlier about your experience with movement and how you said you didn’t want to move with pain. I think that’s how you worded it right. And I, I’d like to use that tip to lean into the movement. Because I think that a lot of us are scared to be in our bodies. We’re scared to grieve. These are two different things in a way, but they’re really the same, right? Where we’re scared to grieve, we’re scared to really lean into all the shadows that sit in that space of grief. We’re also just in general, whether you consider yourself a Griever or not, we’re a lot of human beings are scared to be in their body. And so if we can start to make friends, because really our body and our breath are like partners, they’re with us. Good, bad, ugly, all of it. Right? It’s with us the whole time. And, and so if we can start to lean in to asking the body, what is the message here? Right? We can also ask, great, what is the message here? But if you can lean into your body and say, What is this like you call it pain? What is this pain here telling me. And so during that time that I was in the ER, I was having a lot of pain in my lower right side. And I have actually have two things that I want to share if that’s okay. But I was having a lot of pain there. And it was really like, my body was pissed, like literally pissed off. It was I was having these UTIs is a lot of heat in the system. You know, in Chinese medicine, they talk about heat, and there was so much heat in my body and I’m so pissed off about all the things that were being taken away from me. And that was my body actually reacting to that. I was literally like pissed off at the world. And so when I started to lean in and go, Okay, Bodhi, you’re mad. Okay, let’s, um, let’s figure out another way to to, you know, make friends with each other. And so I started to do very organic movement. And you know, I was a very active person prior to that I was I was presently at that time, a yoga teacher. I was a professional dancer before that. And so I was very connected to my body and love to move but I was realizing I wasn’t treating my body in a way A that was nurturing. And so that’s where I started to do a bit more organic movement and having these conversations and asking the questions like body, what do you have for me here today. One other thing that I want to share with that is to go back to 2012. I had, this was where everything was clicking into place, everything was clicking. And my my yoga program was just about to start. We just bought our house. And my husband and I went to a baseball game and I had like a little summer colds. At that time I was recovering from and we had gone to this baseball game. And one of his co workers who’s a woman came with her boyfriend we didn’t we just sort of bumped into them. And you know, we had a little bit of a conversation, everything. And there were fireworks afterwards. And the co workers boyfriend was actually in the fire department. So he was the one who like let the fire works off. So they had left and I started coughing, and I started to have like what I would think was an asthma attack. Now I never had had asthma before. I couldn’t I could not breathe. I was my face was turning purple. My husband said should I take you to the hospital. And it was just like squeaked out no, because I was scared of like all of that, you know, the anxiety of that on top of it. So at some point, it cleared, and then it turned into bronchitis. It turned into bronchitis for about four months. And to take you now, like a few months after that I had gotten to the acupuncturists after, you know, in the midst of the, in the midst of everything, and I checked everything off, and she said, Okay, when did you have this bronchitis? And I said, Oh, last summer, you know, and she said, she just put her hand on my hand cuz she knew what I was going through. And she looked into my eyes, and she said, Honey, you have been grieving your body knew that you were grieving. So lungs and Chinese medicine is grief. That person that we saw at the baseball game, is who my husband was having an affair. Now, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that I had no reason to believe that at the time, but my body knew.
Phoebe Leona 37:19
And so my tip is if you feel something in your body, lean into it. Now I’m not saying it’s going to be something big like that. But just start to make friends with it start to listen and say, Okay, there’s this thing that I call, like you said, the sensation of pain, I tried to take that word pain away, and ask what are you really telling me? So instead of it being this label pain, because that’s already a story and unconscious story of oh, it was that time when I was skating outside and I twisted my knee or whatever it is, right? We always we already have that story playing out. But what is the sensation? Is it sharp? Is it in? Is it isolated? Is it local? So is it isolated and localized? Or is it just radiating out right from one place out to the entire body. So you start to get really curious about the sensation. And in there, there might be some stories that we didn’t know that we had. And we can start to peel away those layers. And we might not consciously ever say, oh, it’s because this uh, this, like the story that I just told you. It might not be that literal, but you can start to play with it. And I really promise as you lean into it, things will start to shift.
Victoria Volk 38:34
That’s a great, great tip. Great tip.
Phoebe Leona 38:38
It was a long winded tip. But I hope it was worth it for everyone out there.
Victoria Volk 38:43
No, but I you know, like you said these strange pains that you ended up in the emergency room with twice. I had fibromyalgia like symptoms like no, you know, overall just aches and pains. Like Overall, like I just felt like you’re getting the flu, achy, I had chronic bronchitis year after year as a teenager, I would get it frequently. So it’s totally Yes, totally. Your body speaks all the time, your body into in, in like these things that are happening outside yourself. They’re not just happening there. They’re like an expression of what, you know, if we just pay attention to these messages. They’re not it’s like synchronicities, you know, but it’s have to actually see them to know what to do with them to like, look at them and be curious, like you said, what were some of the ways that you know you’re doing all this inner work yourself, but what were some of the ways that others were supporting you that you found the most helpful?
Phoebe Leona 39:47
That’s a good question. Can I just say one thing before I move on because you said something really. I wanted to just highlight is I think this is the biggest shift that that happened for me too, with With all that we’ve been speaking of, of shifting from how, why is it happening to me? As that’s the victim mentality of how is this happening for me? So why is this grief that I’m experiencing happening for me? How is this pain that I’m feeling in my body happening for me? And just that shift? That was what to lead to continue into your second question. That was something that I had was, I have beautiful teachers, you know, I have family that I’m really grateful for on my mother’s side. And then I also have have had teachers that I learned from and trust. And that was one of my teachers, nuggets of wisdom was just shifting that from it’s happening to me, but for me, or even with me, so in terms of the support from people, you said for me, right, not good. I was supporting. Yeah, I was going to make sure I’m clear.
Victoria Volk 40:58
In what ways did others support you as you were doing all of your inner work? And
Phoebe Leona 41:03
Yeah, so this was an interesting journey to was specifically with my mother, because what I had realized, was that with all of the scraping that was happening, and there was still some stuff that my mom and I hadn’t dealt with. And so I really had this opportunity to because I didn’t trust her. There was a lot that happened in my childhood, where it’s like, why did you leave me with this person that, you know, was a drug addict? Why did you let me do this, and this, you know, so a lot of that started to unpack in the process of the grief. And I kind of got a bit mad at her and regret and resented her and a bit. So we started to have these conversations. And it really gave her an opportunity to, I don’t want to say step it up. That’s the better word, like for her to really open her arms. And let me let me see that she has been here, but maybe not in the way that I wanted her to be. But she was there the way I needed her to be. And so you know, just that that day where I drove, you know, that I spoke to earlier driving there, and she’s had her arms open. That’s what I gave her a hug. And I said, I’m sorry. And she said, Oh, no, I’ve been waiting for this. I’ve been actually waiting for you to break down. Because every time she would drive, she drove to see me that five hour drive like, I think it was like had to have been eight or nine times that year, just back and forth. Whether it was okay, now it’s dealing with dad’s estate. Now it’s the divorce now it’s putting the dog down. Now it’s you’re at the hospital. So she like had been driving back and forth for so many times, and just kind of waiting for me to say, I can’t do this anymore. So it really took that break for me to see that she’s been here this whole time. And she had been there, but I wasn’t letting her and so this period was me allowing to be held again. You know? Yeah, I think I’ll stay there for a moment.
Victoria Volk 43:02
That’s, that’s a powerful point. Yeah. Because, you know, you know, my podcast art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone because you feel like you’re on an island like no one gets you no one understands me. Yeah, there for me, I’m not supported. But if you carry the weight of the world of this grief on your shoulders, and you just want to scream, like just hear me and you feel like it’s going nowhere. And but it’s not falling on deaf ears, there are people that want to support you, there are people that are holding space for you or want to, but you got to find your your way to yourself so you can let them it’s it really truly starts with us the self love that we are wanting so badly from other people, we have to start giving it to ourselves. And that was that whole process of what you were doing that unraveling and and going to Costa Rica and working having really crappy days. That was part of it, you know it had that’s how it had to happen for you. And so what has your grief taught you?
Phoebe Leona 44:12
Grief has taught me a lot. Grief has told me that I can be friends with it. That I can be friends with grief. That you know I it really I’m going to repeat it again what you said I hadn’t really put it in those words before when you said the 30 plus year graver that’s not a bad thing. I think grief really makes us more humble, more compassionate, more empathetic. It really what you were just saying of being on the island with the megaphone it it drops us down that that place where we can really be human and vulnerable with each other. That’s probably you know, I’m speaking but and I’m getting deeper and deeper into it. That’s the word that keeps coming through is vulnerability. allowing myself to be vulnerable with others. And that gives me this deeper connection within myself but with other people that I’m grateful for, I don’t think I would have gotten there. If I hadn’t done all of the hadn’t gone through all this loss.
Victoria Volk 45:14
I have an intuition. And I’m going to ask you if you consider yourself this type of person, but do you consider yourself a highly sensitive person and path person? Okay, yeah. Yeah. Because I get you
Phoebe Leona 45:31
Know, I get Yeah, girl.
Victoria Volk 45:33
Yes. Because that’s, I think this is something else I want to dive deeper into with grief is that it can be especially especially hard for highly sensitive empathic people. Because you definitely tend to isolate, and then you take on, not just you’re trying to, you’re not handling your own stuff, well, but then you also take on everybody else’s stuff. And you have no boundaries. And you don’t know how to make those boundaries. You don’t know, what is a boundary? Because you probably weren’t raised with boundaries, right? So it’s like, it’s you. Literally, I feel like with grief in childhood, especially, it’s almost like you have to learn to walk again. Yeah, you almost have to learn how to fund that. And I often say I raised myself, I still feel like I’m raising myself. But really, whose responsibility is it once we’re an adult to raise us? It’s our own responsibility. My kids are helping raise me in a way they don’t realize, but I’m still raising, you know what I mean? Like I’m growing with my kids, because, as a, as a mother, who is empathic and highly sensitive. With grief. Yeah. Okay, that’s a whole nother podcast episode. I’m gonna write that down.
Phoebe Leona 46:56
I love it. When you were just speaking, I was I had this image that I had earlier this year when I was speaking to one of my teachers. And I think that this will really resonate with you, and probably people out there. So I can’t remember what she asked me. But as we were speaking, we were talking about my inner child. And I had this, I had this vision of my child, my inner child, and of standing in the middle of this ring of fire. And I was like, me as like, present adult Phoebe was just going around, you know, with my back to her to protect her from whatever was outside. And my tea and I was telling my teacher, like, this is what I’m seeing right now. She said, Phoebe just turn inward. And I turned to my inner child, and she just like, jumped into my lap. And, and I was, and I clicked for me, that I was in such protective protection mode of her, she, she’s just still solid, she didn’t see the protection, she just saw back to her. And so when I turned to her and helped her, that was she didn’t need any protection. She just wanted herself to be healthy. And I think that sometimes when we feel like we’re on that island with a megaphone, we’re going through grief, and we’re in this, you know, nobody else gets me. We’re actually not giving it to ourselves to get to turn inward and hold that, that experience of that, whether it was in your childhood or in your adulthood that that child’s the I’m just going to call child’s Yeah, that wounded self just needs to be held and needs to be loved. So that just came through that I needed to share.
Victoria Volk 48:42
No, I’m actually in Grief Recovery. I’m a grief recovery specialist. And through the method, you can apply it to all kinds of relationships and the one I also applied it to my inner child. So that was a really healing experience. For me, it’s all it’s so important to bring attention to who we were before grief. And really start there. And where we want to be, live into who we really are right, throughout your grief experience, what has given you the most joy and hope for the future?
Phoebe Leona 49:21
Oh that’s a good question. What has brought me the most joy and hope for the future? I think you know, what I was just speaking into about my mom, I have really healed and still in the process of healing the mother wound with being with my mother and my grandmother. Because what happened was, I came to realize that they had gone through something similar, different stories but similar grief that they didn’t really get to hold space for for themselves. And I started to you know, have more time with them. And actually the pandemic I moved down here to be a I lived with grandma for five months. And now it’s still in the area close to my mom and my grandmother. So that has been the biggest joy is to heal this, this wound that I didn’t even know that we really needed healing. And what was there was another part, you have the biggest hope. And I think that what I was talking about before with the book, I have realized, again, this realization that what I just have experienced and what I will continue to experience, because I’m still in my emotional recovery and grieving, you know, grieving is that I really, truly can be of service to people, and be able to hold space for them, because I have felt that so deeply before. And I can come from that place of just being in that authentic space for them. And I, and I think that right now, we’re still in that grieving of our old life. Yeah, the pandemic was that space in between, that we’re all collectively in of that old life previous, and that there’s something on the other side, but we still don’t know it yet, because we’re still in the middle of it. And I have hope, because of what I’ve experienced, and what you’ve experienced, of grieving individually, I have hoped for all of us to get to the other side, to get through this grief of the old life. And we’ll be able to find a new life together. And I am hopeful for that. But I’m also hopeful that I get to be a part of, of other people’s paths as well as my own in that process.
Victoria Volk 51:36
I think it’s in the contrast that we learn truly what matters and what’s important to us and what we value and and start there in the building the rebuilding of a life that does bring us joy. Yeah, and it is possible. I do want to ask quickly, too, because you kind of mentioned it. And I think it’s important. And I think it’s another good tip. Maybe in there. And so you had mentioned also briefly about connecting with your father, like you, you’ve had these moments of synchronicities kind of these messages. And I first of all, like I said, we have to kind of be open to those, receive them truly receive them. But what were some of the ways that you found and maybe still do that you do connect with your father and have connected with him. And I think I think that’s another tip that I think needs to be added here in this episode. So would you mind sharing?
Phoebe Leona 52:36
Yeah. And so just to be clear, so you’re asking, you know, what were the things that I came witness of after he passed? And so for people you want to kind of invite for other people to look at for themselves in their bigger picture. Is that correct?
Victoria Volk 52:52
Yeah. Like how, like, okay, so like, deer can cross your path. Yeah, like, Oh, that’s a nice deer. Or, oh, oh, nice, double rainbow. There’s a butterfly, like right on my shoulder, you know, like these things that maybe these animals, right, or, like, I think I just talked about this. Actually, my last episode of the takeaways episode I talked about a streetlight would go out. Middle of the, you know, I’m walking at night and a streetlight would go out, I’d be driving, the streetlight would go out. And that would happen several times. You know, it’s like, it’s like, what did my brain connected me to? Well, yeah, it’s something much. Right. So it’s something if it gets your attention, right? Yeah. Is that the tip here? Maybe I’m just answering my own question.
Phoebe Leona 53:44
Yeah, cuz yeah. Because I was gonna say, could give you very specifics, which, you know, even just today, I had this experience, where I was having this big revelation. I won’t go down that rabbit hole right now. But I was journaling as somebody came in, like one of my friends sent me an Abraham Hicks message and and then all of a sudden, I looked at my window and there was just all these blackbirds just like, massive amount of blackbirds just like flying by my window and landed on my, in my yard. And I was just like, Okay, there’s something here, all of this right now. It’s happening. Now. There’s something here now, I can’t go deeper into it, because I’m still unpacking it. But another example is, right after my father died, a friend’s a friend who actually wasn’t my friend. She was just a student at that time. She came to my class right after he passed away. And she called me to lunch a couple of days later, and she’s like, listen, I know, I don’t know you. But I feel like I need to tell you something. She said, I was in your yoga class, and your dad was in the back of the room, just hanging out. Like I saw him. And she had never, maybe she saw a picture of him on, you know, social media or something. But like, I just know it was him and he did here. Have a lizard. And I was like, What are you talking about? She said he was see he had this lizard sitting on his lap. And I was like, I don’t know, he was not a reptilian man, like, he liked other animals that I’d never remembered could have been, you know, it’s just, it was kind of like, very odd. And she’s like, and she even felt like this is weird, because she would have visions, she wasn’t considered, she didn’t claim to be a medium at the time, but she would just have these visions. And so we both sort of were like, That’s interesting. Fast forward to when I was in Costa Rica. This is one of the messages that I knew I was there for him was on the day that you know, hit that first anniversary of his death. I went in, there are lizards everywhere. But I went to this little fruit daddy guy, which is like a fruit stand. And I was sitting there, and all of a sudden, like, a massive amount of lizards just ran up to me. And I looked at them, and I took a picture. And I sent it to cat. She’s like, that was it. That was the kind of lizard that I saw was like, Oh, my God. So those messages, like you said, they’re everywhere. It could, it’s just something that gets your attention. And it could be really subtle. It could be like what, you know, cat saw my friend cat saw months before and we don’t quite get it. And then it clicks later. It could be like you said, Why do I keep seeing this, like go off, you might not never know. But just to lean into it. That’s the tip, I guess if we’re going to put it in a tip. Just be open to the possibilities of receiving the messages and not know, not necessarily know what they need. Sometimes you may get that confirmation, but sometimes it might just be like university like I gotcha. You know, it might be a big profound development.
Victoria Volk 56:44
Yeah. And it’s okay to ask. It’s okay to ask for these signs, right. That’s sort of Siri talked about. Exactly. Well, I feel like this was a really rich conversation. And is there anything else you would like to share?
Phoebe Leona 56:59
Oh we went a lot of places and some places that I haven’t shared with other people before, in this for this kind of way. So thank you for holding that space, Victorian and letting me feel safe to share. I think that’s really important. When we do dive into topics such as grief, that we do feel, you know, safe to be vulnerable. So I just want to acknowledge you for that. Yeah. And I think we said what we needed to say the day.
Victoria Volk 57:29
And where can people find you and your work?
Phoebe Leona 57:33
Good question. So they can find me at my my website, the Nomadcollective.org We’re actually shifting, donating, but if you have the old one that too, that’s fine, you’ll find me. You can just Google my name to even be on social media. I’m on Facebook and and Instagram. I’m gonna dive more into medium and Insight Timer in the next month or so to share my writing and also my meditations. And then my book will be out. I don’t know when this will go live. But my book will be out. And actually you Did did you said a book title that were actually changed the changing the title, but that’s okay. We’ll get a title. It is called variably. Cloudy with abundant sunshine. And that goes back to that day that I woke up and saw my weather app. abundant sunshine. Nice. Yeah, I forgot to give you that update.
Victoria Volk 58:28
What’s your launch date?
Phoebe Leona 58:29
In January actually, if all goes well, January 8, which is the day that my father passed away?
Victoria Volk 58:35
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story your time and I have no doubts. There’s something in there for someone listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
From my heart to yours, thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend
Divorce, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Kristjana Hillberg | A Mother’s Heartache & Sacrifice
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
As a parent, if you had to choose between your child’s best interest or what you personally wanted, you would likely choose what’s best for your child. However, what if that decision meant your child wouldn’t be with you full-time?
Kristjana was faced with a gut-wrenching decision that hung over her head for weeks on end until a moment of clarity struck her like a lightning bolt. But, it came with a whole lot of heartache and guilt. Not to mention one that made a lot of eyebrows go up and whispers swirl around her.
There is no manual for motherhood. And, there’s definitely no manual for divorce with shared custody. On top of that, there’s no manual for being a military spouse either.
There are often many layers to the decisions we must make in our lives that others know little about. However, that doesn’t stop the advice from coming.
Listen and learn from Kristjana’s story. We talk about making difficult decisions via your own guidance system, outward validation, boundaries, tips for communicating with children about tough issues, giving/taking advice, and there’s even a bit about being an empath towards the end of the episode.
I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you enjoy it, too! And, if you do like what you hear, please offer your support by sharing it with someone you know who would love it, leave a review, or rate it! I’d so appreciate it! 💛
RESOURCES:
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Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Christiana hillberg. She is a content creator, avid connector and freelance mentor. She has 10 plus years of experience in the client experience industry and is driven to help all women that she comes in contact with, unlock their potential and succeed. As a mentor Christina’s focus is to empower women to start a side hustle or leave their nine to five job completely to become their own boss hallelujah. She has worked with various clients and industries from entertainment to e commerce as well as experts in the areas of pediatric sleep and play therapy. Her work is included on brand strategies marketing campaigns, and has been a core team member on a few founding behavioral and physical physical health teams. kristiana resides in the Black Hills of South Dakota with her family and she’s a military spouse and enjoys thrifting eating scones at the local bakery and prides herself in being an aerialist in the circus. How fun. She’s also the podcaster of the podcast, your freelance friend, the red door. Welcome. Thank you for being here. We are neighbors. I’m in North Dakota, you’re in South Dakota, so much fun.
Kristjana Hillberg 01:15
I love it.
Victoria Volk 01:17
We do have running water people we do water.
Kristjana Hillberg 01:20
Yeah,
Victoria Volk 01:22
we were just talking about this before I started to record. We I live in a really, really, really, really, really small town, like 60 people. And we do have dirt roads, and so many people from across the country and even the world that I’ve talked with, like why I can’t believe you have dirt roads. And I was just sharing with Christiana too is you know, it’s really something to be grateful for. In this moment of when I step out my door, just like you, we step out our doors, and we actually hear nature. I’m sitting outside this morning, and just like it might be small, it might be in the sticks, it might be difficult to have access to things, but I have access to nature anytime I want. Right?
Kristjana Hillberg 02:07
Yes, 100%
Victoria Volk 02:08
Yeah, so thank you for being here. And I’m very thrilled to be having the conversation with you today, because you were speaking about something that has not been talked about yet on the podcast. And something that I’m sure a lot of, well, as you’ve shared briefly before we started to record that a lot of people have an opinion about. So we are going to be talking about the fact that you Well, you know what, I’ll let you share. So what brings you to grieving voices?
Kristjana Hillberg 02:35
Okay, yes, and so glad to be here and share the story. Because I think that, you know, when you’re co parenting, you already have to navigate, like such a different plan and structure. And with my situation. It was like a whole new level of learning how to co parent. So I was previously married, we ended up getting a divorce, we had a two and a half year old little one. And we started 5050 co parenting. And a few years later, I met and fell in love with my now spouse, and he was in the military still is in the military. And he was stationed across the state, which I mean, I guess Lucky for us, it was still in the same state just five hours away. And for the first year of our marriage, I stayed apart from him still living in the same town as my ex and my daughter, still, you know, co parenting 5050 doing all the things. And my husband lived across the state and we would just commute back and forth. And we had two homes, two sets of utilities. And if you’ve ever done that, you totally know what that’s like to just have to budget for that. So I think that there was just already that layer of, of stress and being a new, a newlywed, you know, couple and having to commute and live apart. And after the first year, we found out that I was pregnant. And obviously the question came up, you know, are you going to relocate and go live with your spouse? Or are you going to stay here? And so this was something that was just on my mind for months and just weighed on my mind. And I think there was just so many questions like, What do I do? What is the best choice? What is the best option for me for him for a new baby for my child who was four or five at the time, and this just ate at me and ate at me and anybody that I would tell because this is just like a common, a common thing that would come up in conversation. Right, because I was living apart from my spouse, I was now pregnant. And I was also co parenting. So it was something that was discussed a lot, or just naturally brought up like, Oh, where’s your husband, and oh, you’re pregnant, like, wow, you live apart, whoa, like, you know, so it just always came up. And so there was this added stress of everyone feeling the need to let me know, their opinions and thoughts about what I should do and what the best option was, or maybe how I would feel, depending on what option I chose. And so I remember going to her Christmas program, her kindergarten Christmas program, and I naturally did everything alone, because my spouse was out here, he couldn’t make it back for a lot of the activities. And I was sitting in the back row alone. And I looked up, and this is making me emotional, I haven’t really talked about this in a while. And her dad was there with his new wife. And both of their families were there, like huge families with brothers and sisters, and cousins and grandparents, like everyone was there. And it just hit me and I immediately knew that I couldn’t take her. I couldn’t take her with me. And not just because I didn’t think that she belonged with me because I’m her mother. But because I truly believe that just because I am the mom doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m like the better parent or the more suited parents. I mean, both of us love her unconditionally, and, and take care of her 100% but I think it was, it was a peaceful feeling. But it was also heart wrenching. And I think that so many, so many questions still fall out after that choice, like, what will this do in the long run? How will this affect her in the long run? Will she think that I abandon her? Will she think you know, that I chose Kurt over her? And if so, I mean, how will that affect, you know, like the choices she makes so there was a lot of just heartache and I think the heartache would have come no matter what choice I made, like whether I would have chose to stay in the same town and you know, have this new baby away from my partner or, or you know, whether I would have done what I did and came out here. So I think that it was just a very emotional thing that I really wasn’t sure I had no idea how I would feel I had no idea how others would feel others as in her or what that was going to look like for co parenting because you know, I wouldn’t have her 5050 anymore, it was going to look differently. But I made this choice and we’ve been here now for three years and I drive back every other weekend and she’s with us you know on rotating holidays and in the summer and it’s still it’s still hard like there’s nothing that has been easy or better. It’s just a whole new set of challenges and life that’s it
Victoria Volk 08:34
and that’s a lot I can’t like how they that moment where you realize that you couldn’t take our width it’s it’s this moment of I mean really describe that to two people what that sacrifice feels like because I think that as mothers we do sacrifice a lot of ourselves but for our children I think it’s there’s a different connection a mother to child that other people who don’t have that or even our counterpart the other parent can’t understand right can you speak to that a little bit what that that knowing of what that sacrifice Wow, really what did that feel like?
Kristjana Hillberg 09:31
Wow, you know, like I had mentioned I mean, I think once that I like in that moment. Of course this had been weighing on me weighing on my mind my shoulders I remember being almost like physically ill for several months and not even just because I was pregnant, but because of this, this choice that needed to be made. And so I remember sitting there and having that feeling come over me and like I said it was Peace and knowing that her staying, she was still going to be very much loved and taken care of. But it was so scary. And also so I think, I felt guilty, I felt guilty for thinking that it was an option to leave. And I think that sense. I mean, it’s been three years since since this choice was made. But I think since then, I’ve just read different things or experienced different things where I’m like, it almost it’s, it’s been a comfort a little bit. So like even reading untamed by Glenda Doyle, she talks about how oftentimes mothers become like martyrs, once they have kids, like it’s like, oh, now I’m a mom. And now I like that is my job is to like Mother, you and you are like the center of my world. So I totally understand that. And I now have three children. And I, I do get that. But I also think that I have also tried to live my life where my children are a huge part of my world, but they’re just, they’re an extension of me. They’re not, they don’t define me. They don’t define all that I am. And so I think that it’s been as hard as it’s been. And as, you know, the guilt that came with it, the questioning, I also think that this was the choice that that I needed to make. And I think that even just like reading that book, or hearing from other other people that Yeah, they may not have had the same experience. But I thought, you know, kind of the same, like even thinking about military spouses, sometimes like, the active duty spouse will get deployed for a year or two years, and that spouses is left home with the children. And so I think, kind of like, in our case, I’m lucky to our I still get to see her all the time very frequently. And luckily enough with FaceTime and zoom, I mean, we can FaceTime really whenever we feel like it or hop on the call. And it’s not that I feel like I’m necessarily missing out, I think I’ve really had to try and put my feelings aside and just think about how can I best support her in this because it must be really hard to live with a parent, you know, who parents this way, and then also a parent who parents a completely different way, and manage having the the commute like five hours, if she’s going to come she has to sit in a car for five hours. And then when she goes back another five hours, so it’s been very, I’ve had to really focus on how can I, you know, support her through this validate her feelings and not make it about me? And I think that was, that’s bad, you know, eye opening as well. I think that sometimes I think that I’m selfless. And then you’re you know, you’re put in these situations and, you know, it’s like, Oh, poor me, or this is so hard for me. And I’m like, oh, but it has to be doubly hard, you know, for her. Like she already has divorced parents, it’s probably even extra to now have to think about the distance that’s between us. So I think that that was really humbling throughout this entire entire journey.
Victoria Volk 13:38
As I’m listening to you, I’m like, well, it’s a lot of emotional intelligence, right there. Did you always have that? Or has that been part of your growth through this experience? Like what? Because the way you talk about it now it’s, it is like this piece of knowing that you made the right decision. And you you continue to do make you continue to make the right decision, but also this really strong, empathetic, empathetic compassion, to really put yourself in her shoes. And I think really, that’s what is oftentimes missed when it comes to children, because children is seen as resilient. And that drives me nuts. It really does. Because children don’t choose to be resilient. They’re put in the position to have to be resilient. Yes. Wow. Yeah. I’m curious how that evolved for you. Like, was that just something that’s innate in you? Or do you feel like that’s something that is, have you had previous experiences, I guess I’m going to get to have you had previous experiences in your childhood that have shaped how you came to this decision and how you’ve continued to navigate it.
Kristjana Hillberg 15:00
Yeah, that is a really great question. And and No, I don’t think that it was just natural for me. Because I think that and I mean, maybe other women who are, who are mothers can relate as, as a mother, I naturally feel like, my children should be with me like, I’m the mom, I’m organized, I’m dependable, I have their schedules memorized, like, I’m, I’m versatile, I can multitask. Whereas not saying that my spouse isn’t like a phenomenal dad, but it’s just a totally different, like, he’s way more like laid back. And like, Oh, I didn’t realize that all of these things went into, you know, getting everybody ready in the morning. Like, it’s just such a different aspect. So when I was thinking about this, I’m like, Oh, my gosh, you know, yes, her dad is is a wonderful dad, and he has a spouse, now a partner that can help him, but will they take care of her as good as me, but then I almost had it, then there was like, another voice in my head that was like, she will be taken care of like, it’s okay. So I think that it was like this, almost, you know, two voices in my head, where it was, of course, those questions came up, or, you know, I would have done that differently. But I think that that’s just natural, whether you are divorced, or whether or not whether or not you live in the same house with your partner, like, I think it’s very natural to probably have those questions like, Oh, I could have, you know, done that a little bit better. I wouldn’t have done that. Exactly. You know, the way you did, but I also think that growing up, I mean, my parents got divorced when I was 14, but it wasn’t really a surprise to me, they didn’t really have a great relationship. I remember wondering if they would get divorced, growing up, just like having that question. I believe I’ve been asked my mom that a few different times. And then, you know, my dad made a choice, you know, when I think I was, you know, a freshman or a sophomore, and they decided to split. And it was almost more of like, refreshing that it wasn’t like a elephant in the room anymore. It was just like, oh, okay, that’s finally happened. That’s great. And I think that kind of like, what you touched on is that people say that all the time is, oh, they’re your resilience, you know, you’ll be fine. And I think that that is so normalized, like, you’ll be fine. I mean, we even say it like, consistently like, Oh, it’s fine. It’s okay, like, I’m okay, I’ll be fine. But I don’t think that we validate our children’s feelings enough. I mean, and I’m still working on that, and not telling them how they feel like, oh, you’ll you’ll be okay. Which obviously, I think, looking at big picture, like, yes, she will learn how to deal with it or cope with it. And ultimately, you know, quote, unquote, should be fine. But I still think that it’s so important to validate that she’s upset right now or sad right now or has questions about it and, you know, struggles with want not wanting to drive across the state, which I totally understand, or now that she has, you know, two siblings here and a sibling there. It’s hard for her. And I think that just me showing up and saying, like, wow, yeah, that sounds really hard. Like, I’m here to listen, instead of being like, well, you’ll be fine. It’s fine. Like everybody does this, or everybody has siblings, like it’s a part of life. I think that instead of brushing it off, it’s just so important. And I think that I wish that I would have had that. And I think that, you know, all of us as adults now can look back on our childhood and be like, oh, wow, okay, like this is maybe why my parents acted the way they did, or this is how I wish I would have been talked to or looked at. And I think that that’s all we can do now as parents and adults is to change that and try to do better for them so that they can eventually do better than us. And that’s really just All I’m trying to do. And each day is, is still learning and learning how to navigate it. Especially as she gets older and has different questions and different frustrations and struggles. It’s so different and each child is so different with how you parent them and how you show up for them and so it’s it’s truly never ending I remember reading this blog and I felt very drawn to it because the writer was also an aerialist, and so I was like, Oh, you know, I wonder what she has to say about being an acrobat mom. And she said kind of the same thing that I could relate to is actually as a performer, there’s always an end that you’re working towards. So there’s like always a performance, right? So like an eight months, you are you are practicing, you’re working really hard for this performance. And then you have the performance that went great. And like, that’s it like you feel accomplished. But with motherhood, there’s never like an end date or like a big performance that you’re waiting for. And then like, Yay, you’ve reached it, like there’s always and then like, even after you have your baby, like, okay, pregnancy was hard, or even pregnancy was easy, and then boom, baby comes. And then it’s just like something else. Like, now your boobs are swelling, and you have to worry about like, all of these things, your body and now other kids. And so I’m just like, you know, this parenting journey is just never ending. It’s always growing and always figuring out like, truly what’s best for you and not, not allowing other ideas and thoughts of what you should be doing to, you know, hold space in your mind. And your thoughts.
Victoria Volk 21:10
Oh, so much to unpack there. And there’s so many layers, there’s so many layers to your situation, because like you said, there’s so many relationships involved, and it’s your children and their relationship to their sister and their individual relationships and the grief that they maybe have when they have to say goodbye and all of these things, and like you said, as she grows older, and as they grow older, and I’m in the trenches of the teen years right now. Oh, it doesn’t get easier. I wish I could say it does, but it just doesn’t it we I really feel like and maybe you can attest to this too. Like I’ve been growing up with my kids. Oh yeah. You know, and I you know, in the personal development world, people will say things like, you know, don’t have children for your personal growth journey, but I think that’s a natural I think that’s what naturally happens. I don’t think you can bypass that because children are mirrors.
Kristjana Hillberg 22:08
Oh my gosh, yeah,
Victoria Volk 22:10
Whatever issues you have in your life personally, like deep down in your soul, like they will emerge through your dad’s none so I’m curious you mentioned some things that you I’m curious if there’s certain resources and things that you’ve come across other than the book you mentioned by Glenn and Doyle but have there been things that have definitely helped you navigate all of these pieces of your story.
Kristjana Hillberg 22:38
Yeah, you know, the first little while when I was still like making my decision I would Google all the time and just try and find anybody who had done this or had experienced like the same things oh my gosh, I was I just kind of went down a rabbit hole of like trying to find blogs or different writings or experiences and I truly wasn’t able to find a ton with like my exact experience. But I also think that that was really great reminder is to follow your intuition your gut and actually like turn inward instead of googling all the time, right? Which I think can just be like a natural thing anymore is that we’d like Google you know, what’s this? And so it was just a really great really great reflection to be like okay, you’ve been searching outward for so long and allowing other people’s opinions and ideas to you know, just kind of fill your mind let’s just sit back and like think for a little bit just like and really marinate on what feels good to you what’s going to be best for you know, you incur new baby for Lily for everybody that’s involved. And I think that that was where more of the peace came because I think that when I was searching for outward validation and I truly was like, I was seeking for somebody to be like, oh Chris, it’ll be so you know, this is how you’ll feel it will go well and I was I truly was seeking for that. And I mean, it never came and I said, Okay, well how can I create the situation that I want I’m also a huge advocate for nothing is ever permanent so I mean, I was very upfront with my partner as well and I just said okay, this is what I feel like is the best going forward but nothing is ever permanent. So if this really has like a huge impact on her and we can see that it’s like affecting her. I you know, I would like to leave it open that I could potentially move back or that we could revisit the situation and see what else what other options We have because I think sometimes we get so stuck in this, like tunnel vision of these are our options A or B. And that is it when really there’s like 20 other doors surrounding us that we haven’t even opened yet. And so I think that just being in communication with everybody and really having our child at the forefront of Okay, like what’s best for her what’s going to work out, let’s really listen, let’s listen to her teachers, if it’s affecting her at school, if it’s affecting her, you know, personal life, or whatever it is, then we can revisit this. But ultimately, when we look back, I mean, all of her teachers would almost be like, wow, like, she is very settled and very, like, happy. And I’m just adjusting really, really well. It has never been like an issue ever. And I think that that was also comforting to know that she really like she could thrive. And as comforting as it was, it was also a little bit of, I think that I had to take the weight off of, you know, your kids will only thrive like with you as their mother. They’re when I’m like, really she knows I’m she knows I’m in our corner, she knows that I will always be there for her no matter what. But I don’t need to be there with her 24 seven for her to be a thriving young woman. I mean, she, she has friends and a wonderful stepmother and family. And so I think that it was almost like it hurt a little bit because I was like, oh, like, she she doesn’t need me in the sense of like they’re with her 24 seven, if that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 26:48
No, it does.
Kristjana Hillberg 26:50
It kind of hurts a little bit, because you would like to think like, I’m the mom, they need me. She’s gonna be so sad. Not saying that she doesn’t miss me. But it’s just, it was definitely different than what I had like envisioned or created in your mind, which I think we all know that is when we let our mind just kind of take over. It always goes to like the worst scenario like this is going to happen, it’s going to be awful. And really reality was not that at all.
Victoria Volk 27:21
Well, and I think too, like, I think when this is where I think our childhoods greatly impact us in ways in our adulthood influence our parenting in ways that we really don’t understand or comprehend or really even connect the dots and think about because you know, when we because as mothers, and I can speak for this for myself, but when my youngest went off to kindergarten, I had this midlife unraveling because I wrapped so much of myself in my identity into being a stay at home and work at home mom. So when that was gone when I realized that, that that attachment like oh, well, they don’t need me as much, they’re becoming more independent, which is really what I want to deep down because I had to grow up very independent, I had to be resourceful and, you know, depend on my own wits and really raised myself and a lot of ways and so I think that that has greatly influenced me, especially now after I’ve kind of worked through and done a lot of inner work. But when we look at our children, like they complete us, it can be very smothering to our children and stifle their growth. Because we’re all we’re, we’re latching on to something that we feel is slipping away. But that is really a projection and a reflection of us and what’s going on in us. So I think it takes a lot of introspection, and to really look at the situation for what it is and what is best for them with your feelings and your emotion and your ego set aside and that’s really hard for people to do.
Kristjana Hillberg 29:04
Yeah, another part of Glenn’s book talked about that, that part that you just brought up was showing your children that you are following your dreams and like living your passion and, and really doing like showing them that that you’re still living your life because then it like allows them to feel like wow, like I can live my life whereas I think that I mean when you watch somebody, your mother or your father that’s holding back then I think that that could potentially affect you later like oh, it’s scary out there. Or, you know, my dad has always stayed in this place and has never really ventured out like Is it scary out there. Maybe I just won’t do that. Um, and kind of the same thing. So I really like to make sure that my kids are seeing that I’m still doing all of these things that bring passion and light and love into my life and to share those things with them. So that eventually, when they decide to leave, or whatever, they decide that they will feel like, Oh, I watched my mom do it, like, I can do it too, or whatever it is, whether it’s, I mean, she watched me go through a divorce. And then she watched me find love, and she watched me, you know, perform, and she’s watched me travel. And she’s also watched me grow a business. And so I think that all of those things will hopefully inspire her, that there’s no limit to what she can or can’t do. And so I i love that you brought that up is that sometimes when you feel like that’s what defines you, it can be scary when you don’t have that anymore. And so I think, I’m not gonna say Luckily, because it’s not luck that, you know, we’re in the situation that we’re in. But I think that I was able to learn that from such an early age, like some such an early age for my kids being so young that now with my younger two, it’s just so different, like, the dynamic is so different, where I don’t, I don’t ever think that will ever reach that point where like, they’re graduating, and then I am like freaking out, because I have no idea how I’m going to like what I’m going to do, I’ll probably be like, Oh my god, I’m so happy for you by us, you know, we’ll be here doing this. And this, like, I think it’s very just like a liberating feeling to feel like, you know, these humans that we’re raising our, their own person, like, we’re just there to guide them and support them and validate their feelings and talk to them about all the things and let them know that questions are okay. But then other than that, I’m like, they pretty much will figure it out, you know, for themselves, what feels the best to them. And I think as long as we keep that at the forefront, like, how does this work for you? How does it feel for you? Like, what can we do to support you, I think that that’s totally setting them up for success rather than us dictating all the things all the time,
Victoria Volk 32:24
right, and being honest, right? Like being really, totally honest. Because you could have, I mean, as another transition happens, as your kids get older, and maybe things change, and the situation has to change, it’s like being completely on. And I think that’s where a lot of people miss, miss the mark. And that just being honest with your kids, I don’t know what this is going to look like, I don’t know how this is going to turn out. But I want you to know that anything that you concerns or anything that you can talk about it and you can, you know, it’s just giving the child a voice, letting them know that they’re being that they’re heard, and that their concerns are heard and that they they won’t be disregarded you might not make and letting them know ahead of time, like I might not make the choice that you want me to make. But I’ll make the choice with your heart as in consideration. You’ll take your thoughts into consideration. I think I love that. Yeah, when you involve them in the decision. Obviously, you can’t let them make the decision for you. But yeah, I just feel like I don’t know, I just felt like a new dimension
Kristjana Hillberg 33:29
No, it really truly was perfect because I heard this reference once or maybe not a reference. I don’t know. It’s like a little story about teaching your children how to trust their feelings. And it was saying, okay, pretend that you’re in the backseat of your, you know, you’re driving with your mom, you’re in the backseat. And a really scary accident happens where like you run through a red light, you’re spinning around, it’s you know, you’re very scary, the car stops and your mother looks back at you and says, everything’s okay, like we’re fine. And immediately you feel this disconnect because your body is telling you that that was a very scary situation and something bad could have potentially happened, where same scenario, the car stops, your mom looks back at you and says, Oh my gosh, that was so scary. How do you feel like can you feel your heart beating fast like, and kind of walks you through that, and then says, but now we’re safe. Let’s take a few breaths and just kind of like, walks you through the whole situation. It teaches you that you can trust what you felt that that experience was scary. But you are safe. And it’s okay to take a deep breath, cry, whatever you need to do. And I think that teaching your kids from such a young age that like to trust how they’re feeling, and then to also teach them that they don’t always have to be happy. Like we don’t always have to feel good and happy and excited. Like, we can Feel mad and sad and worried and those are all completely natural feelings and then teaching them also like okay this is what I do when I’m really sad or when I feel anxious you know what what makes you feel happier when you’re you know feeling sad or when you’re away and I think just like providing tools given you know, age appropriate or whatever tools that they can use that that they know now that they don’t always have to show up and act like everything’s happy and and good.
Victoria Volk 35:35
Be an example of how to how an adult regulates emotions. I had a flashback something when you were telling that story because I had a kind of a situation and my kids were a little bit younger and we were driving and I saw the rain clouds and we’re just going to get on Interstate and I saw the rain clouds and I thought oh boy I hope it doesn’t downpour at all sure enough, it’s like a new in my gut like this isn’t going to be good. And get like 10 miles down the road. It just starts downpouring like so bad. My wipers can’t keep up I’m blinded by the rain. I can’t Oh, yeah. And I see this 18 wheelers in front of me and and I just started pulling to the side. And I I just followed his lights. And I didn’t even know I saw him starting to pull over but I know it was he over far enough. I didn’t know. I just followed behind his lights. And I didn’t know like am I far enough to the side? Am I almost in the ditch? Like, should I go in the ditch? And you know, because my fear was I’m going to get rear ended because someone’s not going to see me. Oh my god was that terrifying? Like in my daughter like she like tears panicked, like, and I was panic. Oh my gosh, and my heart rates just raising, rising, just thinking about it. Because it was truly scary for all of us. You know, and I I’m one I can’t hide it like it is what it is. But it’s been Yeah, emotionally honest. Like, oh my gosh, that was really scary. Like, how were you feeling like, oh, like we’re okay, though. We are okay, you know? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I was like, exact situation, just a different scenario. But yeah, it was I was gonna say anger is valid to write like, anger is totally valid emotion. I think sometimes to like, anger is an unacceptable emotion and a lot of homes like you can’t express anger. And so that gets so stuck in stifled in our bodies. And, and I’ve seen it in myself, to be honest, I had a lot of anger and resentment. And I say we say in grief recovery and grief recovery specialists, we say in grief recovery, that resentment is a poison that you take hoping someone else dies. And that’s really what long held anger becomes, is just really it’s poison in your body. But I think it’s very important that as parents, we allow our children to be angry, and to express that, but as adults, we need to emulate what that looks like. Like Yeah, and I give myself timeouts, I tell my kids, you know, I need a timeout right now. Mm, space, because I’m also a umap certified coach. And with umap it’s we learn how what our values are and how you’re wired and things like that. And it’s been really eye opening for me to just talking about values and thinking about how that when our values are violated or dishonored. That’s how much grief that creates for us. And I think if we can understand what each other especially in a home, family unit, what each person values, it can create a lot more harmony within a family.
Kristjana Hillberg 38:40
That’s great. I’ve never heard of that. That’s great.
Victoria Volk 38:44
I just got to thinking about that as I was listening to your talk to let’s to kind of circle back to the beginning because I think it’s like I said I really wanted I’m excited to talk to you about this because I think there’s a lot of like you said there was a lot of things said to you that were hurtful. And I want this to be an also an educational piece for people give people a different perspective of loss and grief in a different way. And so what are some of the hurtful and, and really harmful things that people said?
Kristjana Hillberg 39:22
Yeah, I like oh, gosh, I’ve tried to like nod. But I mean, I think that a lot of people just would revert back to like, Oh my gosh, like how could you like how could you leave her? And I think that that was a very resounding like a pretty common, a common phrase whether it was those exact words or you know a phrase that that meant that. I mean even my attorney when we were like revisiting the stipulation because we now needed to put in like, it was isn’t going to be 5050. And we had to look at different dates and, and all of that she was also kind of like cold like, Oh, you know, you’re kind of just like getting yourself in this situation, you know, and like a judge is not ever going to look at your situation and think like, Oh, she should be with her mom. Like, he’s gonna be like, well, she, like that was her choice. And so then, of course, all of those feelings of a little bit of anger, like, Well, okay, yeah, that’s a choice. And I’m marrying a man who’s active duty, but also like, he’s sacrificing his life to also serve the country. So I think that it’s like, a little bit different than just being like, hey, like we’re choosing to move to Vegas by like, it was totally not that but also like, made to seem that way. Which of course, hurt me because I was physically and emotionally sick. And so it’s not like it was a an easy decision. It’s not like it was taken lightly. And so when people would make their comments, it felt like all of my feelings and worry and ache was just not taken into account, if that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 41:17
Yeah. And you’ll hear something that I think that here’s a phrase that I tell myself when I’m encountered with a situation that I don’t understand, or seems confusing to me, or this is what I say to myself. I don’t know what I don’t know. And I think if people ask themselves that, before speaking, I don’t know what I don’t know. Would they really say half the crap? They say? Yeah, right. Not, but you know what I mean, like, we don’t know what we don’t know. So there’s, it’s almost like, when you take out one letter of a word, it changes the entire word, exactly. It’s the same thing with situations like you take out one little piece or you add in, like you, like just your story itself, there’s so many layers to it, if you understand one part of it, you’re not understanding the whole picture, you’re not getting the whole picture. Right. And so I can, I can just feel, I can put myself in your shoes and just feel that need to like justify,
Kristjana Hillberg 42:23
yes, justify. And that’s what I that’s what it felt like I was doing all of the time, is just justifying anything and everything, like, why I was doing it, how it was going to be beneficial. And then it was just, it felt so heavy, it felt so heavy to carry, but like I had said earlier is that once you stop looking for that outside validation and stop looking for other people to somehow make it you feel better, because it goes back to what you just said, Nobody knows the situation like you. So any type of advice that they’re going to give you is not really going to be in alignment, ultimately, with your situation, because they only see such a small, little tiny piece, that that really, you’re the only person who is is going to know how it feels to you. So I think that once I really decided, Okay, I’m not going to talk to anybody anymore, including my mother, including like my partner’s mother, including anybody that had any attachment to me or this situation. I just stopped, I stopped asking. And I just almost at that point, it became like, avoidance of the subject altogether. But it wasn’t avoidance because I didn’t necessarily want to talk about it, it was avoidance because I just decided I didn’t want to hear what other people had to say about it. So instead, I would just keep it like very brief and very short. And whatever it was that I ended up saying, you know, I can’t even remember because it was several years ago, but I just remembered choosing to just not let it bother me anymore. I was like, I’m the only one that’s dealing with all of these emotions, feelings and thoughts already, like I don’t want to allow other people’s voices in my head. So I think that that was a huge, a huge benefit.
Victoria Volk 44:30
And I think that advice can be applied to grief overall, in general, just overall in general and actually to like with umap I’ve learned when with values, people give advice based on their values, what they value. So for example, if I value freedom, I might tell you or even let’s say you value there’s a better example let’s say you value adventure, and the person that is asking you for advice doesn’t In value adventure, the person giving me advice might say, Oh, yeah, like, just sell your all your life savings and, and take a trip around the world, you know, as the other person might be they might if they actually did that, like, you know what I mean? Do you value? Yeah, if you value freedom, you’re gonna give advice based on that value of freedom, like, oh, leave your husband, then, you know?
Kristjana Hillberg 45:30
Yeah, oh my gosh, that’s so true. And like you said, it can be like that, just that information can be used for like all areas of our life. Like when we’re giving advice, or when we’re speaking, to say, I don’t know what I don’t know, also, what are my values? And how am I showing up in this conversation? Maybe I should just validate what they’re saying. And say, like, I’m here, I’m here to listen to you, whatever it is, because really, what’s your most of us want anyways, it’s just somebody to listen, that’s it. Like, I hardly ever go into a conversation and want them to like, work out my problems. For me, I usually show up and just want to talk about it. And usually by me talking, I either feel heard, and a weight is lifted, or I like solve my own problem by speaking it out loud, right? It’s like one of those one, one of those. And so I’m just like, you know, if we all just showed up more, and I’m not saying that I’m perfect at that. And by any means, I always feel like I should solve someone’s problems. But usually people don’t want that anyway. So just learning how to show up. And just, that’s all you have to say, like I’m here. Whatever you need.
Victoria Volk 46:44
And I think that’s a knee jerk reaction for so many people. And that was me, too. For a long time. Just I want to solve it. I want to fix it. Oh, yeah, you want to fix it for you. I want you happy, you know, that I want you to happy? Yeah, you should, you should be happy because your sadness and your anger and your grief and makes me uncomfortable. You know, so let’s fix you. You’re the problem!
Kristjana Hillberg 47:07
Oh, I even noticed too. Like, my mom is very emotional. She cries. Usually when we talk. And I remember for a while, I’d be like, Oh my gosh, stop crying. And I had listened to a podcast or talk talking about that is usually when we dismiss other people’s emotions, because it makes us uncomfortable. And we like that is not okay. And so anymore, ever since because I didn’t know what I didn’t know. Right? And so now I show up. And if she feels like crying, I’m just like, I love you. I’m here for you. And I just allow myself to sit in the uncomfortableness and anymore like, it’s not really uncomfortable. You know? Like it’s not. It just is what it is. And I think that a lot of the time we and that can be with anything, right? With race, with marriage with having kids with sex with porn with anything we’re like, that’s super uncomfortable, don’t want to talk about it. Can you not share those things with me? Like, I don’t feel comfortable? like can you please stop talking about that when really like, it’s not our job to like, you know, shield what they’re talking about, like we’re just there. And if we can’t hold space for it, that’s a different thing. Like Listen, I’m not in the headspace, but like, I can give you five minutes or like, let me hug you. Like I think that just communicating, being open, being honest, being willing to be uncomfortable. Those are all huge things that all of us I think could work on at all times. Like it never ends. It’s like an always always evolving and growing and learning. Always.
Victoria Volk 48:43
absolutely. And you said what you all said there the through line to all of that is boundaries. You kind of didn’t mention the word boundaries but I think when we don’t even know what boundaries look like or don’t even have our own we don’t have them with other people and I’m reading a book right now about empaths and healing for empaths and it’s been really like it’s like oh my gosh, this book is like this is my life like this is this has been my life because I’m I’m like an energy sponge for people you know, I take it all in and I’m really starting to understand my childhood more so because I am so empathic and I think if we can understand that too, with our children, because you know, to be told you’re a crybaby or like even your what made me think of it was your example of your mom, if she is a highly sensitive person and cries easily, and you’re always told, quit crying, quit crying, like don’t show your anger like don’t show your emotions, your body, you will process those emotions with your body. And actually in an example of that in the book is actually talking about Fibromyalgia because Fibromyalgia has no, there’s like never any pinpoint reason for fibromyalgia like there’s never like this is what causes it like they there’s so much. But what it really is, is this stuck energy, it really is just stuck energy, look at any symptoms, physical symptoms that you have. And if you’ve gone to doctor after doctor and there’s just no known cause like there’s no reason for it like nothing no, there wasn’t any trauma or anything, look at your energy of your physical body and ask yourself am I really highly sensitive person? Do I really get physically drained? when I’m around a lot of people or talked about like holidays to like, it’s like the holidays were made to have to like torture an empath? It’s like, yes. Yes, that’s true.
Kristjana Hillberg 50:47
Yeah, really fascinating.
Victoria Volk 50:53
This book is like written for me. And so really. Yeah, so I think but circling back, and how that what that has to do with your share, is just understanding that we are all built differently. And that if someone seems to be highly emotional, it could just be that that’s how they’re built. That’s how God made them. That’s, you know, you’re an empathic, highly sensitive person and maybe give a little grace. Like you said, I’d love you, Mom, I’m here for you. You know?
Kristjana Hillberg 51:29
Yeah, I love that I love all of that reflection. Beautiful, and boundaries. 100%. I’m like, Girl, we could just talk for seven more hours. But I think that I mean, I, I keep like, branching off, like, here’s the story. And then here’s these little branches off. But to just circle back really quick, I think that once I put those boundaries in place, it changed everything. It changed my energy. It changed how I reacted, it changed my thought process. And it really was, it was just way easier to navigate. Because yes, of course, this hasn’t been like, Oh, I made the choice. And now I’m super happy. Absolutely not. It has still been a range of emotions of frustration and anger and sadness and grief, right? Like you just moving through all of it. But it doesn’t mean that it’s bad. It just is what it is. And as long as I have boundaries around it all like, it’s, it’s like a protection, like it protects me and my energy. And if I could give any advice to somebody who’s going through any type of grief, because I think it’s so it’s such a relatable topic, like we’ve all gone through it, we’ve all experienced in some capacity and all differently, which is the beautiful part about it is that we can all have such different experiences, but be connected through that that same emotion and feeling is really I mean have give yourself grace and boundaries and look inward, instead of looking outward for comfort, which I think sometimes is an easy, I mean, I’ve I definitely looked outward, through maybe drinking a bottle of wine to try and not think about it, or, you know, just other behaviors that weren’t truly self care. They were more, you know, harmful. And I think it’s hard sometimes when you’re in the middle of it, because you do not want to feel sometimes you just want to not have to feel what you’re going through. And so you try to mask it with anything that could look like anything. But I think that once you just start to show up more for yourself and not for others, but really look inward. I think that’s what will be like the saving grace of it all and just be able to protect you.
Victoria Volk 54:11
Was there a certain book on boundaries or about boundaries that you found really helpful to you or any resource that you could share?
Kristjana Hillberg 54:18
You know, I was in therapy for a while, several years ago, and she actually recommended the book boundaries, which I had, I’m like, I’m looking at it. I did not read it. It’s there. And I should, but I really think that a lot of it was self exploration for me because I grew up with no boundaries. And my mother doesn’t have boundaries. I didn’t even know what boundaries were like. I honestly thought it was like a service to be available to everyone at all times for anything. Like I really thought that it that’s like what you did as a human and so Up until, I mean a few years ago, so all of this was culminating at the same time, like my divorce, being a single mother and then learning how to co parent and then also getting remarried and like figuring out life. It all centered around not having boundaries and like not even knowing where to start. And so I think that once I just started experimenting, like what that looked like, for me, like being like, oh, that doesn’t feel good when like somebody shows up at my house, unannounced, oh, I can make a boundary around that, like, Hey, if you’re gonna stop by Can you just like, give me a call, click like, Oh, that’s a boundary, or, I don’t really like it when we have guests that stay longer than three days. Okay, so like, that’s a boundary that I have. And I know I’m giving like, weird crazy examples. But those were just things that I had to experiment, experiment with experience myself, before I even knew. And now like, I would say, I’m pretty solid in the boundary department, like I am pretty in tune with myself and like, what feels good to me that I feel extremely comfortable expressing that whereas if I were to look back at my early 20s, like, shit show, like, I felt like my brain was a tornado. And I had no idea why and oh, it’s because I wasn’t I wasn’t valuing like my time and energy and space. And so once I found these new found, you know, boundaries and limitations, and like, certain things, it was a game changer, game changer.
Victoria Volk 56:37
Yeah, I actually read the book boundaries. And I highly recommend there are several books out there, but yeah, and you know, boundaries when we have them, it makes people without boundaries really uncomfortable. real easily guilted. Like, you just supposed to feel bad because your example of don’t show up my door on my door unannounced. And that’s, that’s I don’t like surprises, you know, so it’s like, well, then then you feel like, well, you’re not a welcoming person. Right? You know, yes, like, but I am just not in that way.
Kristjana Hillberg 57:14
Like I feel welcoming, come over, I want to, like I want you to come over, I just want to know that you’re coming over and then I can, like, get in that space. But I heard once that once you set boundaries, the people who break them the most are going to be the most pissed off, right? Because they’re the ones who are breaking your boundaries the most. And so I think that just like you said, it makes people uncomfortable. But it is, it will make you uncomfortable at first I think like you’ll be like, Oh, this feels bad. Like I feel bad about this. But the more you do it, the more comfortable it becomes and then the easier it is to express like anymore like I don’t, I don’t even like second guess like Oh, am I gonna like make this person feel a certain way. I’m just like, Oh, this is how I feel. You know, like would love to see you just call me in advance or Oh, you know you want to come stay that’s really great. You can stay for like two days. We live in like 1000 square foot house with three kids and a cat like there’s no room for extra bodies like love you so much. But please don’t come over. I don’t know we’ll meet you somewhere. So I think it’s just once you get used to setting those boundaries, I think that it becomes you know, easier.
Victoria Volk 58:24
It’s like a muscle you flex. Here’s the one thing too I want to say about boundaries when it comes to children and so often is and I’m guilty of this. You know, when your children are young especially it’s like oh, give grandpa grandma hug or, you know, give uncle whatever hug you know, we tell our kids to consent. Yeah, put them in your you know, go and get people you know,
Kristjana Hillberg 58:49
like hug this person that’s super uncomfortable. You only see them twice a year do it anyways, it will make them happy. It will make you again, yes, yes, sir.
Victoria Volk 58:57
Can I you know, give me a hug. It’s like,
Kristjana Hillberg 58:59
it will make me sad if you don’t.
Victoria Volk 59:04
Yeah, it’s like, like, you know, your personal space isn’t even is isn’t even addressed or respected. Or, you know, maybe I don’t want to hug them. Or maybe I don’t feel like that maybe that’s not how I express myself. Again, it’s like letting the child develop and grow into who they are. not who you want them to be or, or like you said to make other people feel comfortable. And those are the early messages we start receiving about boundaries.. What you want doesn’t matter.
Kristjana Hillberg 59:34
Oh, yeah exactly. Oh, yeah. right from the get go. 100%. And I mean, like we’ve said a few times in this podcast already as I don’t know what I don’t know. And it never used to, like irritate me or bug me and I’ve seen it now that it was brought to my attention that like, Oh, this is something that’s just like perpetuated in society like, oh, here’s, you know, 90 year old grandma you never see her revisiting You know a nursing home that you’ve never been to I you should give her a hug it’ll make her feel so sad if you don’t like we’re teaching them that their actions like what they do, it’s important to only care about how you’re going to make other people feel. And so just like you said, it’s setting them up almost for like, a really bad situations for later on in life like for, you know, if they’re dating somebody who wants to cross boundaries, then they remember this, this over arching theme that was taught that was taught to them all growing up that even if it makes you uncomfortable, you just do it because it makes that person happy. And so oh my gosh, like, now I look at my even like two year old and like if his grandpa’s like, oh, you’re not coming up to the cabin with us, it’s gonna make me so sad. I’m like, oh, doesn’t matter. He doesn’t want to do it. It’s okay, if you make Papa sad, like, how do you feel about it? Like it’s very, like intentionally teaching them to honor how they feel instead of how they’re going to make, you know, somebody else feel.
Victoria Volk 1:01:05
well, and again, it comes it circles back to the early lesson of how we look to others to validate us. And so we grow up that way, we’re going to look to others to make us happy to make us feel better. And really, that’s an inside job, huh? Yeah. So what throughout this whole experience, what is giving you the most joy?
Kristjana Hillberg 1:01:29
I think, I mean, being able to be with your partner is, is great, it was super hard for us emotionally to live apart. So us being together has been has been wonderful. And I mean, even through like deployments and stuff, it’s still nice to know, like we have, we’ve built a home. But that’s also like the the flexibility of it, as well as that, like, if he’s going to be gone for two months, then I can now travel like across the state and to maybe be with her a little bit more. So I think just the, what is that there’s just like having a support of a partner who truly does get it and who’s truly there to like, support you help you through it all, he never has told me once like, you know, this is how it’s affected me or anything like that. Like, it’s always about, like, I know that this has been hard for you, you know, how can we make this better, like, it’s, it’s been extremely comforting to have a partner who’s very supportive of it all. And really, I think that it’s opened my eyes to like who I am, you know, parts of my personality that I had to work on or that were, like, shown to me through this whole thing is that, you know, you can look at life and situations differently, it doesn’t need to be like, because it’s a societal norm, like you have to fit into this box like, or this is how you will feel if you do this, like I think that it’s taught me that I can do hard things. And that most of the time our brains just make up this like awful shit that will happen. And ultimately, that’s not really what ends up happening. So I think that it’s just, you know, the remembrance that and I know, we talked about this earlier, because I said we say all the time, like I’m fine, I’m okay, like I’m fine, I’ll get through it. And so I’m not trying to make light of that because I am fine ultimately. But I also want to to reiterate that this isn’t just like a, the journey where I feel like one way about it all the time, it’s still very much so like a journey of feeling all of the things of feeling sad, and like allowing myself to feel sad about it or, and to not live in that sadness, but to just be like, I’m having a really sad day today. Like, I really wish that she was here with us, I really wish that I was there. And then maybe you know, if I experience happiness, you know, the next day, like, that’s great, or if I experienced like longing or yearning for, you know, just to like, see her I mean, that’s what’s nice about FaceTime, too. So I think that just allowing myself to feel all of it. And to realize that like that’s just a part of life as well. Like you’re not ever just going to be like super happy all the time that this is just like making the best out of the situation and being willing to pivot if we need to. And yeah, having a support of supportive partner, I think has made things a lot. A lot easier.
Victoria Volk 1:04:42
Having the hope that it’s not permanent.
Kristjana Hillberg 1:04:45
Yeah, exactly.
Victoria Volk 1:04:46
Just the whole thrive together. Yeah, I think it’s amazing too. I just want to bring I just want to highlight the fact that there are two sets of parents raising this child Who are all co parenting, who are looking at the best interest of her. And it may not be perfect, but just the fact that you can speak so highly of the stepmom and you speak so highly of her father, and I’m sure vice versa. It just says a lot about everyone involved. And so I just want to celebrate you. And what you and your family and everyone involved has created this loving environment with this goal of just helping her thrive. And so I think that is going to leave such a lasting impact on her. And so give yourself a pat on the back for that.
Kristjana Hillberg 1:05:43
Yeah, yeah. And I think that as long as we continue to have that goal of just all of us, all of us there to support, validate, help her through whatever it is, and just be on the same page. I think ultimately, like you said, I mean, we’re, we’re setting her up for success. And that, in that sense, so yeah, it’s definitely been a journey 100% filled with all of the emotions and feelings. But we’re blessed we were we really are blessed to have such a great relationship and partnership, when it comes to raising her.
Victoria Volk 1:06:24
I think I just think it’s amazing. I really do.
Kristjana Hillberg 1:06:28
Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:06:29
Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Kristjana Hillberg 1:06:32
I don’t think so. I’m like, gosh, I talked for over an hour. Sometimes I like jump off and I’m just like, no, this and this and this and this. But hopefully, hopefully somebody out there that’s listening can feel comforted or understood or
Kristjana Hillberg 1:06:49
heard or I don’t know,
Kristjana Hillberg 1:06:53
I think that that’s one reason. I mean, I like sharing this story is that I know we’re talking about not seeking outward, you know, a validation, but I think that I even just wanted to hear of somebody else that had had to go through something like this, and I couldn’t find it like I just I searched and searched for. I mean, oh my gosh, everywhere it seemed, and I just couldn’t find it. And so I feel like even just by sharing this story of even if it’s just as simple as like the CO parenting aspect. I mean, I think it just it brings comfort that like, Okay, I’m not the only one going through this, my feelings are validated, okay, it’s totally natural to have all of the feelings like I don’t need to feel settled all the time. Like I can feel upset or worried or scared at any point of this journey, even 10 years in, or however like I just, I think by sharing our stories is where we truly can connect with people. And I always just hope that somebody on the other end, can feel heard and seen and even just like a little bit of peace in their heart. So yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:08:06
I actually think it’s important to validate people’s feelings, I think in the context of validating the decisions we make. That’s where the, that’s where we can hurt ourselves. Because if we are looking to others to validate our decisions, that’s where we aren’t trusting ourselves. Yeah, we’re not if we can’t fully trust ourselves. And that’s kind of a scary place to be right. That’s totally, you’re never really confident in the choices you make. So I just wanted to make that distinction that, yes, validate. Look for validation of your feelings. But at the same time, the differences is if you’re trying to validate your choices and decisions that you’re making, right, like you said, trust your intuition and go with your gut. Like, that’s what really matters, because people will always give their values based advice, right? Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing your story. It’s like a tapestry, so many different colors and layers. And I just think it’s a beautiful thing that you’ve created in despite the all the unknowns that you gotta navigate. So thank you again, and where can people reach you if they like to connect with you?
Kristjana Hillberg 1:09:25
Yeah, I feel like I’m most present either on the podcast, which is the red door, or on my Instagram, which is just my name. christianna underscore hillberg. And I would love to connect, love, love, love it. I always love having people on the podcast, you want to share their story, or if you want to just connect on Instagram, I’m all about it.
Victoria Volk 1:09:44
Perfect. And I will put the links to the show notes as well as any resources that were mentioned. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Divorce, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parenting, Pespective |
Tina Ginn | Preparing for the Worst
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Tina, like many grievers, has found her passion in her pain. What started out as a career as a financial advisor, where she was well-versed in risk management, morphed into helping others prepare for the worst in their lives.
Having lived through a forest fire evacuation order, the quick decline of a dear friend’s health and death due to cancer, a traumatic car accident which later led to losing her job, to a subsequent divorce and estrangement with her children, Tina has learned the importance of connection and preparedness.
She brings her passion for helping people become prepared for the worst. She recognizes that the last thing people want to worry about, when tragedy strikes or when there are moments to make decisions, are the logistics of their lives.
Through her app, Your Backup Plan, she helps individuals get their lives in order so that, when tragedy or nature does strike, your life is in the palm of your hand. This not only makes your family’s lives easier if something happens to you but also your own if it’s you at the center of the unfortunate experience.
Tina says we shouldn’t wait until someone is dying, or we are dying, to prepare; by then, it’s too late. Additionally, the conversations you want to be having in these moments do not include the bills that need to be paid and how they’re paid. Also for example, where social media passwords are, what to do with a beloved collection, or a last will and testament. These issues and logistics can be documented in advance so that anyone close can pick up the pieces with less stress. Also, in turn, this allows for more time for deep connection when it counts.
RESOURCES/CONNECT:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Tina Ginn of your backup plan. She helps put your life in one place in preparation of any unpredictable, unpredictable circumstance while taking the painful aftermath out of the tragedy. Thank you so much for being here, Tina.
Tina Ginn 00:22
Well, thank you so much for having me. We’re a little bit apart from each other today.
Victoria Volk 00:29
Yes.
Tina Ginn 00:30
I’m on the west coast in here in the central.
Victoria Volk 00:33
Yeah. And, you know, zoom knows no time or space, right?
Tina Ginn 00:39
It’s good.
Victoria Volk 00:40
Yeah
Tina Ginn 00:41
We can reach all our listeners.
Victoria Volk 00:43
We live in an amazing time. It’s COVID really put a damper on so many aspects of our lives. But I have found some silver linings in COVID. And that I was able to pursue a lot of different learning opportunities and things and I’m sure it’s connected you with many people, and my podcast has connected me with you know, many people, too. And that’s been the beautiful thing out of it. But yeah, so we are going to talk about grief today. Obviously, that’s the podcast grieving voices. And we’ll get to Tina’s passion work later in the episode. So, what brings you to grieving voices today?
Tina Ginn 01:23
Well, you know, Victoria, that it’s been very, I’ve had many different types of grief. And it started off with a very close friend of mine, who went into the hospital for tests, because she had a cough. And she didn’t really have any other symptoms. And her husband had called me, and they had $1 store in a small city, and said, I’m really busy at the store, can you pick her up after her tests? I said, absolutely. So, I waited to hear from him. And he said, she won’t be coming home. She’s staying in for more tests. So, the next day, I get a phone call that she has stage four cancer, lung cancer, and that she’s not coming home. And, and where she would be so I could go visit her. In the days when we could visit people. Never thought we’d ever hear that, ever, that you couldn’t visit someone in the hospital. But yeah, so I would go up in the elevator twice a week, and you know, my stomach would fall to the My, my stomach, I think would end up in my throat, and the doors of the elevator would open. And I would always be so worried and scared of what it was going to look like, how it was going to evolve, how it was going to change, because every day, it just perpetually changed so quickly that in front of me that it was scary. It’s scary to see someone disintegrate in front of you. And so, I, on one of my visits, I always wear some real t instead of hospital T and we sat outside on the patio, and she said you know, Tina, I just want to feel the breeze. I just want to hear the birds; I just want to see the blue sky. And that’s all and I want to be present with the person that I’m with. I don’t want to talk about did the accounting get finished. Did we pay the inventory? Did the bills get paid, I don’t want to talk about where the keys are for the shed, or who’s who bought the pet food, or what kind of pet food or I don’t want to talk about anything I just want to enjoy the moment. And that made a huge impact on me. Because it made me realize that nobody and that time wants to either for the person with the person in recovery or in. In a short-term death sentence sort of speak. We don’t want to be burdened by all the stuff. We don’t want to worry about who has a key and who does. We don’t want to worry about if the electricity bill is paid. We don’t we don’t care. We don’t care. We just want if the person’s in recovery, we want to be able to get that person better. And the only way to get the person better isn’t like stress and frustration and anxiety and where the stuff is and where’s their will and where’s their dog documents and who’s paid the bills. And we don’t want to worry about all that, we want to know that you are there present in the moment and sharing the love, because it’s only love that’s going to make us better. It’s only love that will innately create that recovery process, if at all possible. We had research done in the states of twin girls, who one was very weak, and the other one was stronger. And they had to be they were premature. And they put them in different little different bed caskets, you know, the little hospital beds, and the one was thriving really, really well. And the little one wasn’t. And every day that went on, it wasn’t getting any better. So, the nurse put the two of them together, and they clenched with each other, and they held each other, and the one helped the other one get better. And so that one then flourished. So it shows you that by being there, by holding the person’s hand, by listening to them by holding them by seeing them by and not regretting after the fact, when they’re gone, I should have cut I would have, I should have spoke to them more, I should have called them more, I should have went and brought food to the more I I should have sat with them longer, I should have spent the whole day with them. No, don’t, don’t do that to yourself. Enjoy the moment and be prepared for the unexpected before it happens not after. So that’s kind of where I came from when I created the app, so that people could be better prepared, and it would be easy. You just pick up your phone and put in your doctor’s appointment. And when you come out of the doctor’s office, you put what he said and take a picture of the prescription. So now you’re putting your life all in one place. You were the CEO of your life, you know where the documents are, you know where your medical history is, you know where your insurance documents are, you’ve taken photos of your home in case of a wildfire, which How many times do we have to deal with those every year? wildfires and floods it seems popular these days. So yeah, so that’s kind of brings me up till the last few years of me taking the time after I had a few episodes of grief myself, that it took me into another place as well, because I had to find myself again, and move forward and help other people to whether it’s healing, because this to me, helps you heal, it helps you heal because it doesn’t bring in the angry, you know, family fights, or the depression or the angry ness between family members. When you’re in that tragedy moment. You You don’t have time to think, you know, people react in so many different ways. Some people get mad, some people get sad. And when you get a family together, let’s let’s try and keep that family together and try to experience something that’s already looked after. When it’s all looked after already, then you don’t have those same worries and stress.
Victoria Volk 08:50
Yeah, we often find our passions in life through her personal experiences. Thank you for sharing about your friend. One thing I do want to highlight that you said and one thing I picked up on maybe you didn’t was that when you saw your friend when you were getting out of the elevator and you were talking about that experience, and you were afraid of what it would look like. And you refer to it as it in terms of the cancer, right? And did you feel like you’re trying to distance yourself from that, you know what I mean? Like trying to distance yourself from that, from that diagnosis of? Yeah, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but I picked up on that. And so, can you share a little bit more about that what you were feeling?
Tina Ginn 09:46
I think the IT part for me was you know, it changed so quickly from someone sitting on the edge of the bed, to somebody lying in the bed with oxygen and then not hardly being able to speak it, it developed so quickly, that it scared me to think of what the it was going to look like not necessarily the cancer, but the experience. I think it was what I was meaning, you know, the experience that I’m sharing with her, the room, the smells, the whole experience, and I don’t think we we do that we don’t take time; you know from for me, I wasn’t concerned about any of the paperwork or of her life. I was there as a friend and a support and for some sort of healing. And that was my sole purpose. But when she said those things to me, it made me realize you can always expect the unexpected, because life is very, very fragile. We don’t know when we’re going to be here tomorrow. And I think once you’ve gone through something as similar to this, you realize that life is precious. And we don’t have all the time we think we have, you know, we we need to get as much preparation as we can for ourselves as well as those we love. As part of my backup plan app, I’ve created the emerging blueprint, and it’s a membership program to better educate you and your family. those you love around you, too. What things do you need to put together? You know, this is where I kind of started off with, because everybody knows they need a will. That’s about it. Um, some sometimes they say, oh, yeah, Tina, we need a power of attorney. Yes, you do. But what are the other things that you need? What, what is going to make those people you know, if you ended up in the hospital in a coma from COVID, for two months? How would someone get into your home? How would they pay your bills? Where do they where do you have your accounts? Where are your investments? Where’s your key to get in? And do you have pets? Does someone know how to feed them to someone know where the VAT is? All of these things of being prepared for whatever might happen. And I think COVID really woke us all up around the world, that life is precious, and we are not prepared. We truly aren’t.
Victoria Volk 12:44
Yeah, I’ve often found in my own family, you know, or when someone close to my family has passed away. When anyone really passes away that we mutually know, or, you know, then the conversations start happening. Well, you know, what, what would you like, where would you like to be buried? Or what are your wishes. And in that, I mean, oftentimes when we’re faced with a death, that’s we reflect on our own mortality. And so those questions come up during those times. And but what’s funny or not funny is that we don’t act on that. Right? How many people actually have those thoughts? And then they don’t act on it. I’m guilty. I’m totally guilty of this. And I’ve thought about that, too. Like, oh, my gosh, if something happened to me, it would be a nightmare for my family. Like, my husband is not tech savvy at all. He would struggle, he’d be on the struggle bus, in a lot of ways. Like, how would he let my client like, it’s important for me to, I want I would want my clients to know, you know, just all these different little nuances of having a business or just all the stuff I’m involved in, like, what would he do? And I’m not prepared, I’ll be the first to say it. I’m not prepared. He knows what my wishes are. And actually, this just came up the other day, because I’m currently going through an end-of-life doula training program. And one of the topics that came up was how, if if you had the opportunity to know you were dying, right? In the case of lung cancer, terminal illness, a really progressing disease that’s, you know, what do you want your end of days to look like? Do you want your body washed? You want your family to wash your body? How do you want your body honored after you pass? What do you want the end of days to look like? Who do you want there? You know, all these different questions that I really hadn’t given much thought to other other than don’t put a feeding tube in me. Don’t hook me up to you know, have Then a later, that’s not living to me. Right? So beyond that, though, I don’t have that in writing either. You know, and I think I actually I just read up on recently I was I remembered it vaguely, but I looked it up the Terry shearable. Like, it’s how you say her name. She was in a vegetative state for 17 years because her husband wanted the feeding tube removed, and her parents disagreed, and there was nothing in writing. And all he had was a statement she made. And yeah, that’s the case. Yeah. So what is the first thing that you recommend to somebody who, let’s say, has been diagnosed with a terminal illness? Where do you start?
Tina Ginn 15:54
Well, that’s why I created the emerging blueprint, because it starts with what documents that you need to find how to make a folder, how to put them in a safe place, so that if you had a wildfire, you can just grab them. But they’re also in the app. So we go through the process, there’s 12 modules. And then the first one, I mean, literally, you could just do the first one and of knowing what documents to put together and putting them together and getting them put into the app. After that, all of the extras are great to put you one step level better. Any module that you do, you’re going to be better prepared than the last one that you didn’t do. So, I always say to people, you know, one of the modules is just what bills need to get paid. A lot of times and 90% of relationships, partnerships, one pays the bills and the other one doesn’t. So if something happened to one or the other, or both, who pays the bills and how you pay the bills, the person needs to know how to do that in case of an emergency. So that’s like one of the one of the modules the other, there’s a library of videos of recordings from lawyers, notaries, around the world, even, it will get to the point in the program, where I’ll have a UK section, the United States section, a Canada section, so that you can go right to those sections to find out your exact details. But in the meantime, there’s a lot of preparation to get done. And it’s very, very easy to do when you have the papers in front of you. You know, the family conversation module is a worksheet that you can sit down with your family and say, go down and tick off the boxes and write down what that person wants. And you don’t even have to think well Do I have to know that? Do you know what you need until the time comes? Usually not. So, this makes it all nice and clear. You can print them off, you can write on them, you can do them on the computer, whatever is easier for you. So, in the last module is like the most exciting, the most creative part. I’m a Pisces. So, I always invent and create things. But I always have to throw that little bit of extra fun firmness in there. And it’s called the treasure box. And so, it allows you to either do it on a weekly basis, or a monthly basis or an annual basis. Or even just as events unfold. You could add them into your treasure box, whatever suits you. Everyone’s different, but that could be of your five senses. So, smell sight, feel, touch, and see and seeing it hearing it. So, it could be anything that you want to leave as a legacy because not all legacies are money. It could be you know, a special shirt. There’s nothing more special when someone passes away than finding a piece of clothing with their aftershave on it or their perfume on it or their smell. You just want to hold it like a teddy bear and never let it go. So, it’s all of these things that you can add to your treasure box that might be jewelry or artwork collection. I have a client who’s he his hobby is fire trucks Believe it or not, he has a collection of fire trucks. I’m not sure why. But so when you think About how does someone prepare, you know, you don’t just have a collection of fire trucks and then leave your spouse not knowing what it’s worth, what the parts are worth who to contact, if something happened to you, because believe it or not, if you put it out in the newspaper, and you tried to sell it after, there’s lots of takers from from the wife, who’s selling all the collection of collectible items, so you don’t want to go down that road. So yeah, so it’s these kinds of preparations of items where you want to maybe throw in all your grandma’s recipes and pass them down and, or, you know, so every time they make those cookies, it’s gonna smell like grandma’s house, or mom’s house or aunt Sue’s house. So, it’s all of those feelings that I wanted to add in there so that people can make grieving easier. If that’s a thing, because I’m not really sure if it can ever be easy. But I feel like when you have things that you can attach yourself to, maybe it’s music, maybe they sing, maybe they write poetry, maybe they write stories. Maybe it’s a blog or podcast that they’ve been writing, and they would like it passed down to the daughter or the son to continue it. You know what, whatever that looks like. Those are all kinds of things that you want to pass down to your family or friends. So yeah, that’s, that’s the fun part. I think that’s the exciting, like, what can I think of to put in there?
Victoria Volk 21:50
I love that I’m a Pisces too. When’s your birthday?
Tina Ginn 21:55
25th of February.
Victoria Volk 21:56
Okay, March 5th, I just had mine.
Tina Ginn 22:00
Happy birthday!
Victoria Volk 22:01
Thank you happy belated to you. So, you speak a lot of experience in the realm of grief. And I imagine because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And there’s more than 40 plus different types of losses. What have been your other grieving experiences that have kind of solidified what you’re already doing?
Tina Ginn 22:31
It’s really solidified what I’m doing now. Because when I created the app, it took me a long time, because I’m just one person. So, if I was the inventor, I was the creator, I was the diagram, I was the architect. You know, I was everything. It’s like running a motel, and literally going and rushing the washrooms and signing the people into the room. Like you are everywhere. So, after that, I had a horrific car accident in 2017. And I was hit head on. And I was happy that I was, you know, when I touched myself that I’m like, Okay, I’m still here, I’m, I’m in one piece, and my face is still my face. That was my main concern. But I had a lot of recovery after and I didn’t realize even from broken bones, and physiotherapy on your body parts, that no one is helping your brain. No one’s there for your brain injury, nobody’s there for your concussion. And so, I had to really work on all of those things. And when I realized that after 30 years of marriage, and horrific car accident, I then went on disability after realizing that I just couldn’t seem to even though I was walking around with crutches, and getting driven everywhere, because I had a cast on my foot, I couldn’t drive. I realized that I just couldn’t do my job, which was insurance at the time at a bank. And after four months, I realized after fixing, getting out of my crutches and out of my cast and being able to drive again, that I couldn’t do my job, I couldn’t multitask. I couldn’t, I could do my job with my eyes closed, but I couldn’t do all the multi tasks that there were to do. So, I decided to take go on disability and take some time and get recovered. And so I went back after seven months, and they let me go. And so, then I had a battle with that. And then I realized that I wasn’t getting the support at home. My girls had already been through university, they’ve already left the home. Both are doing their own thing. And it was just myself and my ex-husband. And I just said, you know, this isn’t working for me, I’m not getting the support. And I need something else. And so, I said, It’s time that, you know, I think we aren’t in love with each other. We love each other, but we’re not in love with each other. And I think there’s a difference there. So, we continued on with, we went for counseling, and that didn’t work. It might work for some couples. And we went through with a separation and then a divorce. And then, so after that, I lost contact with my girls. So, they’re in their late 20s. And they decided to go on their merry way. So, I guess I’ve had many different types of losses, many types of grieving. One hurts more than the other, to be honest. But I think they each hurt in a different way. And so, I can feel everybody’s I want to say torture, because it feels like torture. No, I can feel everybody’s feelings of what, how they’re supposed to feel what? I don’t know why with grief; we always think of what we’re supposed to feel. There is no supposed to anything. It’s it’s I think everybody feels different. Because we’ve all had different experiences.
Victoria Volk 26:48
I think at some point, we all feel crazy, though. Like you’re going crazy.
Tina Ginn 26:53
Yeah.
Victoria Volk 26:54
Like, why can I just like, get my crap together? You know that? I mean, that’s how I feel like Why can’t I just get my crap together? I’m sorry, what?
Tina Ginn 27:02
Why can’t I understand this? Why can’t I get my head wrapped around this?
Victoria Volk 27:06
Right? And in your experience of, I mean, there’s ripples, so many ripples in your story of like one loss just leads to another loss and another loss and it compounds it keeps adding rocks to your backpack? And so how, how have you? What has coping look like for you?
Tina Ginn 27:33
Well, I mean, it was definitely tough at first. But I think, by me, telling people stories, and really focusing on healing, helping people heal, with getting better prepared for the inevitable, because we all know, something is gonna happen to each one of us. You know, sometimes, like myself, I had multiple things happen, because obviously, the universe was telling me, hey, Tina, you’re not getting it yet. We’re gonna hit you with another one. And you’re still not getting it yet. So, we’re gonna hit you again. So, I think it brought me to where I’m supposed to be and what I’m supposed to be doing. And it’s created an outlet for me to if it helps me heal by me helping other people heal. By Me, helping people hear multiple stories of different things of what happens in your life, right can turn your life around, that can turn it upside down. You know, there’s such a little thing of losing your wallet, to losing your husband there on very different ends of emergency. And very different ends of the spectrum in the ways of how someone would actually grieve. But the losing the wallet is also an emergency to a lot of people. Because we we know what will happen, right? It’s but it’s there are different emergencies. And I wanted to cover all of them. Because by me going through these experiences, it must have given me that, that compassion and that empathy for people that also have to go through it. And by me creating something to make it even easier for individuals. You know, what I would like to eventually do with your backup plan is have a TV show where I’m traveling to the Ukraine. I’m traveling to Germany, I’m traveling to China, I’m traveling to United States. I’m traveling to these different places to show people how they get prepared for the unexpected in that place, you know that country, because I think that would be really interesting to see all the different cultures of how they, how they look at not necessarily life, but how they look at looking after their family member, you know, what does that look like for them? What does the cemeteries look like, in that country? What are the funerals look like in that place? You know, all of those types of things, I think it would be really interesting. And it would take people to a different level, to understand that it’s everywhere, it’s, it’s just like COVID, it’s everywhere, it’s touched everybody. And it’s not, we’re not going to die, depending on our age, has nothing to do with age has nothing to do the color of our skin. It has nothing to do with anything. And so, when people say, well, who is your target market, or who should be buying your app, I say anybody and everybody who has stuff. And some people say, well, I don’t need a will, because I don’t have anything. Well, that’s not true, either. So, we need to be better prepared, because there’s even the smallest, the littlest things that are very complicated, like social media, you know, if if you have an Instagram account, it’s very difficult to get your son’s Instagram account, and cancel it. Without him allowing you to do that, after he’s passed, who wants the social media accounts left open like that. They’re a prime target for theft, for identity theft, and because they’re not being used. So, it’s all of these social media things, it’s all of these types of things that makes your life easier, even when you think you don’t have very much, you have lots of things, digital accounts, now, we don’t get mail anymore, we don’t get any bills, hydro bills, all comes digitally now. So we need to have a place where those digital accounts can be found by someone just by looking at the right place, in one place for it to be they’re not trying to look in that drawer in that closet and that cupboard. And you know, who knows where that’s usually the way? It’s like, where would she keep it? Where would it be?
Victoria Volk 32:49
Well, folks, if you are not convinced that you’re not prepared. I’m sure you are now. Because I mean, what better sales pitch and I know it’s not a sales pitch, because I can feel it in your heart and you’re speaking and in the conviction in your voice of how much this means to you and how important it is. And I to understand how important it is it’s it’s the taking the action, it’s, you know, taking that step. And so, it is the app itself is available in App Store, correct?
Tina Ginn 33:27
And the launch will be available in a few weeks. And it will be on the website as well.
Victoria Volk 33:34
Okay, and I’ll be sure to link to that because this episode won’t actually air for a while. And so, you’ll probably find the link in the show notes for that.
Tina Ginn 33:44
It’s a lot to comprehend, isn’t it?
Victoria Volk 33:47
I know there’s more to this. I know we can talk a lot more about just I mean the on the unpreparedness aspect of loss and and the ripples of that because like you said, it creates stress and frustration of those left behind when well what are we doing in the repercussion of that, like let’s say you don’t get that bill paid like you have no idea where to pay that bill. You get overage charges, you get interest charged, you get late fees, and then all of a sudden, a $300 bill becomes an $800 bill because because you simply don’t know it exists or where to pay it right? And I mean, I flooded I when I was in my early 20s, I flooded out of my apartment. My mail was not for whatever reason I had a credit card bill that was not forwarded, or I didn’t receive it. That’s what happened to me all of a sudden, I’m you know 21 years old, and you know making I don’t even know what minimum wage is back then. Maybe five, six bucks an hour. I mean really. Um, but I lived in grout, you know, like I had a walkout patio or a walkout, you know, it was the ground level and flooded and had to move. And yeah, all of a sudden, I think it was like a $400 bill became like over $800. And I, I $800 to me when I was 21, that was a lot of money. Yeah, that was a lot of money. But that was just a consequence of me just not being prepared and, you know, lack of preparedness, I suppose. But, you know, something would have happened to me, then who would have been? What, you know, what would have happened with that build. So, you’re driven the message home to me. And I’m, I definitely will be giving this much more thought after, after today, for sure.
Tina Ginn 35:45
It’s about being educated. Really, you know, because at first, I thought, Oh, you know, everyone can use the app. Well, the app is there. But it really helps. And I suspect it’s a lot for women, mainly, because we like to build our Nast. And we like to be educated. We like to know why we’re doing things. It seems like that anyways, whether it’s true or not, I’m not sure but and so that’s when I made the emerging blueprint, because that way people can go watch a 20 minute video, you know, they can go watch another module to find out about life insurance, or find out more about car insurance or find out more about house insurance or tips on a little video on talking to a house insurance person agent talking about that, or, you know, all of these different little educational parts that we truly don’t really know if we know that makes sense. Is that a thing?
Victoria Volk 36:48
Well, can you speak to that a little bit, just the fact that I want to circle back to the fact that you were married for 30 years, and then found yourself on your own. And so, you know, you don’t have that backup, you don’t have that support, you don’t have that. If he takes care of that I take care of this, all of a sudden, I’m taking care of everything, you’re taking care of everything. And so, can you speak to what that was like, because I don’t know what that’s like?
Tina Ginn 37:19
Well, I’ve never been on my own. So, it was very, very strange. And my girls would go everywhere with me, like we went shopping, grocery shopping, clothes shopping at like literally anything. They played avid softball, they got softball scholarships, they, I wanted to ensure that they were in a great place to get really good education and experience life experience. But for whatever happened to us, I’m not really sure. But maybe one day, they might hear this or see this or realize that, you know, don’t talk to somebody and wait too long. Because you don’t know what tomorrow will bring. You don’t know if that person is going to be there tomorrow. You know, you don’t, as a mom, you worry about your kids, even if you don’t see them every single day. But from a kid’s perspective to a mom, they’re on their own, they’re doing their thing. I’m sure they’re not thinking every day about their parents. You know, remember those days, but it’s like when you’re in your 20s. I don’t know, I think by me sharing my experiences now. It’s given me motivation and inspiration to help others. I’ve had too many clients call me at the edge of a deathbed of their parents usually saying how do I get where their bank accounts are? Tina? Where do I find out where their documents are? Where’s this? Where’s that? And my answer every single time is it’s too late. You don’t wait until they’re dying to find out anything. Because when the person is actually dying, they think that they’re not. There are not going to die. And why are you asking me those questions? So, it’s too late. You have to do these things. When everybody is fine. Everyone’s healthy or somewhat healthy. So even if like you said with your question, if you found out you have cancer, these are all things that you can get better prepared for either for yourself, as well as those that you love and care about around you. Because if something happened to them, you’re in the same boat looking after them. So, you might as well have them prepared to so yeah, it’s it’s So like a little family circle, like I like to call it, what will happen with my kids? Um, I’m not really sure, I hope that it’s not going to be a tragedy that brings them back to their mother. I wouldn’t want to wish that on anybody. I would hope that it would just be something they’ve seen or heard or a movie, that they go, like oh goes on and says, what are we doing? You know, life’s too short. This is ridiculous. So, we’ll see. We’ll see where it goes.
Victoria Volk 40:37
I’m sorry that that’s your experience. Right now. I can’t imagine as a mom; I have two girls and a boy. And I just what I think about now is Gosh, I hope they really love each other and get along when they’re older, that they know they have each other that they really look to each other for support. But it never has crossed my mind. Gee, I hope they want to come home. I hope they want to see me.
Tina Ginn 41:05
Yeah, it puts it right there.
Victoria Volk 41:08
Yeah, so I’m so sorry.
Tina Ginn 41:10
Well, it’s a lesson somewhere in there for all of us involved. Not sure what we’re supposed to learn. But there is a lesson in it somewhere.
Victoria Volk 41:19
I want to mention to something you mentioned about when they’re sitting at their parents’ deathbed, and they are in denial of their loved one dying, that was actually just brought up in my end of life, doula training, and how often that is the case where people deny the inevitable, they deny what’s actually happening. And I can speak from an advanced grief recovery methods specialist point of view, and also someone who watched their parent die, in that it separates you from the experience, when you are unable to acknowledge what is happening and what is inevitable. It keeps you from really embracing what’s possible in that moment. And what I’ve come to learn in the very short start of my training for the end-of-life doula is that it can be a very beautiful experience. And it’s very empowering, to really engage and put yourself in that experience with your whole heart. And you can’t do that if you’re denying what’s happening. So, I just wanted to bring that up.
Tina Ginn 42:34
That’s a good point. Because you also can’t be there like we talked about, if you’re worried about all the other stuff.
Victoria Volk 42:42
Yep. Exactly, exactly.
Tina Ginn 42:46
Fear, and you’re worried and you’re stressed and all of these things and, and it’s like being hit by a car. You know it, I wrote a book, it’s called in the blink of an eye. And it truly is, it’s in the blink of an eye. Even if you’ve been someone’s been suffering with cancer for six months, and then they pass away. At six-month mark, it’s still really in the blink of an eye.
Victoria Volk 43:14
It’s still sudden.
Tina Ginn 43:17
It just happens, even though you think you’re prepared. But are you?
Victoria Volk 43:23
Yeah, I just actually that came up not that long ago, how, even if you have the time, and you’re given that blessing of time to know that that’s what’s going to happen that you know, and doctors don’t get it all right all the time, oh, you have three months to live and then you live two years, you know, they don’t know at all, but I digress. Knowing that there’s an end cap right, to your life that’s coming changes the perspective and how you behave and act and the conversations you want to have and how you engage with life and and it’s just unfortunate, I find that it takes something tragic like that for us to really wake up.
Tina Ginn 44:03
And it does. Not sure why.
Victoria Volk 44:08
Yeah. Part of the life lesson that we each have to walk I suppose. What brings you the most joy nowadays?
Tina Ginn 44:16
ah, talking to the wonderful people like yourself all over the world every single week, hearing their stories and hearing their inspirations and helping people hearing their stories about you know, what’s happened with them and how it’s changed their lives and it’s so breathtaking. It’s it’s just so the experiences I can’t even have words for really, it’s it’s just, it makes you tingle really does. Because, you know, I’ve just taken something that you say well, why People say, well, there’s lots of stuff if you die, there’s lots of things. There’s grief counselors, and there’s all sorts of executor type of things. And there’s booklets, and all of that kind of stuff, but there’s nothing for the whole picture. There’s nothing for a car accident, there’s nothing for just going in for surgery and not really coming out in two or three days. You know, there’s nothing for losing your wallet. There’s nothing for a five-minute evacuation notice for wildfire. There’s all of these hurricanes, tornadoes, you know, there’s all of these types of tragedies, the cancer word, stroke, heart attack, there’s all of these experiences that we’re all going to have in some shape, or form. And I just want to help people make it easier. You know, if it can be easier, let’s do it because COVID has changed you lives.
Victoria Volk 46:01
Just think about the time to I’m just, when I think about, okay, if I had this app, or my loved ones had this app, the time that you spend in conversation, like you mentioned before, wasted, breath on things that really don’t matter, but still do need to be addressed. You could be talking about things that really are matters of the heart, that really do matter in that moment, right?
Tina Ginn 46:31
Or special toy that they played with, or their teddy bear or when did they learn how to ride a bike and all these little stories that you can help that person that is passing? Be there in the moment not say, hey, Mom, you know, did you tell me where those bank accounts are?
Victoria Volk 46:51
Right? Yeah, I mean, that’s yeah, if if only for one reason to be prepared, right? Is to have a quality of conversation when it matters.
Tina Ginn 47:05
Well, I’m make your life easier, even for yourself. If you had a five-minute evacuation, and you’re running around the house. Are you running around taking photos or you write videos? Are you running around not knowing what to grab? Like, what do you grab? photos? Do you grab documents like clothing? What do you grab, and if you don’t have that go to bag, then you know it’s just craziness and I’ve even had the five minute evacuation notice in the Okanagan and BC. And it’s not fun because you can smell it, you know, it’s it’s, it’s like the, the experience that we’ve all had with our cities of being closed down. It’s that eeriness, it’s that smoke where you can’t see the sun, it’s so smoky. And the bits of the fire are floating in the air, like from the trees, which, in fact, go and float somewhere else and start a fire somewhere else. But there’s all of this, you know, you can’t breathe, you can’t see you can’t smell you can smell it. It’s It’s so eerie. And here you are in that moment, trying to figure out what to grab out of your house.
Victoria Volk 48:22
That’s traumatic. It’s traumatic, I’m sure. Well, thank you for the work that you’re doing. I’m passionate about education around grief, obviously, soon around, end of life. I’m going to be speaking a lot more about that, I’m sure. And so, thank you for the work that you do. I would love to include your app as a resource on my website. Yeah, there was another gentleman, he was a guest on my podcast, too. He created an app for memories. Actually, after cloud, it’s called think there’s just beautiful things that can come out of the experience of grief and wonderful creators like yourself. So, thank you for creating this to make lives easier.
Tina Ginn 49:16
It truly is my passion. I feel it from every part of my soul. I think it’s definitely it’s just so exciting every day to think who you’re going to touch today and who you’re going to help.
Victoria Volk 49:35
Is there anything else you would like to share?
Tina Ginn 49:38
just you know, during COVID, it’s given us a very different experience than what we’re used to. This is our new normal and if anybody’s listening any listeners out there and I usually say this in most of my podcasts as well, but there’s someone special in your mind right now. someone that you love it care about on your mind. Reach Out and text them, call them message them today and tell them how much you love them. Because you never know what tomorrow will bring.
Victoria Volk 50:12
We don’t, we don’t. Where can people reach out to you if they would like to get in touch
Tina Ginn 50:19
Well, we have your backupplan.ca is the website and I’m on Instagram, your backup plan. Facebook, I have a Facebook group as well as a page, your backup plan, LinkedIn, Twitter, G, jeez, I’m on everything. I am everywhere.
Victoria Volk 50:42
Well, I will put some links in the show notes where people can find you to the app and also to your website. I will link all of that in the show notes in your book as well. In the blink of an eye, I was even going to ask you kind of I hear a book rumbling in here you came out with you have a book and I thought when you mentioned the TV show, I thought Hmm, maybe you could start with a YouTube channel. Are you on YouTube? You are on YouTube. Okay. And that’s on your pod on your website as well linked on your website as well.
Tina Ginn 51:14
Yeah, YouTube, it’s your backup plan.
Victoria Volk 51:21
Okay. Awesome. Thank you again for being here. Tina, thank you. Thank you for sharing your story and for the work that you’re putting out in the world.
Tina Ginn 51:29
Thank you for the opportunity. I love speaking about it and I love telling people that it can be easier. And this is how.
Victoria Volk 51:39
And remember when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Divorce, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parenting |
Staci Bartley | Broken Hearts & Broken Dreams
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
From the age of 16, Staci Bartley was in the Relationship School of Hard Knox. She found herself pregnant at the age of 16. And, to do the “responsible” thing, she and her then-boyfriend (21 at the time) decided they would get married. A year later, she would end up a divorced single mother. However, at 21, she would expect a second child with a new man in her life, and, together, they decided to get married.
It would take a lot of heartbreak and breaking down to recognize that the effort to attain the perfect family and life contained within the constraints of a white picket fence was too much for her 13-year marriage to take. She would find herself, by this time, a single mom of 5. And, this time, she decided she would enter into any future relationships on her terms and that she would never marry again.
But life had other plans for her, and although Staci did ultimately find her happily ever after, it wasn’t without a lot of relationship road-rash along the way.
Listen in on my conversation with Staci, Relationship Expert, and Mediator, to learn why and how the relationships we choose to enter into can be the most beautiful, trying, and teachable experiences of our lives. And, you can bet that grief has a whole lot to do with what we’re talking about today. There is something for everyone to relate to in this episode.
RESOURCES/CONNECT WITH STACI:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Staci Bartley. She is an international relationship expert and mediator. She comes from a generation of messy, hard, and treacherous relationships. She’s versed in old paradigm agreements, unrealistic expectations, and shame for not being able to create long lasting relationships. Essentially, she truly understands failing at love. After 30 plus years and lots of learning and adventures, Staci’s was brought to the realization that there is no such thing as failing at relationships, because each and every one you’ve been in, or will ever be in contributes to who you are, and who you are becoming. Thank you so much, Staci for being here.
Staci Bartley 00:45
Oh, it’s such a pleasure to be here with you. Anytime I get to co create with you, Victoria, I’m in.
Victoria Volk 00:51
Awesome. Today we’re going to talk about broken dreams, broken hearts, divorce, pregnancy, out of wedlock, failing at life and love or feeling as if you do. So, lots to get to. So, let’s jump in. I want to start because I’m familiar with your backstory. But I want to start from the front porch when you were 14.
Staci Bartley 01:14
There was my sister’s wedding. And it was a beautiful sunny day, and my sister was starting to get the jitters that you get on your wedding day, you know, panicking a little bit like oh, I hope this is gonna go well. My mom was starting to try and calm her down and I just needed to seek some refuge on the porch. I was thinking I’m out of here. I don’t know what to do with all of us. I found myself a nice, warm, comfortable place. And I remember feeling the warm cement on my legs and looking up and feeling brace on the trees. And just about the time I was like completely settled in. My soon to be brother-in-law came running around the back of our house. Oh my gosh, you guys made it and I glanced up. And there was a car full of four guys across the street parked and they were attending the wedding and had come from the east coast where my students be brother-in-law had grown up in Maryland. And as all four doors opened down, the back one on the passenger side there popped out this adorable, beautiful smile, fluffy, curly hair, big grin. And I was I was awestruck as this 14-year-old girl of like, Oh my gosh, like I’ve never been in a relationship. I grew up in a very strict household with you know, religious paradigms that had kind of run the show I’d never really even contemplated except for a crush on white boys and my my Sunday school class, what that could be like, but in this moment, it was like, oh, wow, I want a guy like that someday. Right? And I discovered through the day that his name was Tom. And right from that moment on every time my brother and sister-in-law would say you don’t know my friend Tom, let’s go California. My insurance would go up. Right? Like, oh, yeah, totally. I remember following him around a wedding, you know, just trying to get any Intel that you possibly can. Because I would just sit and watch like this beautiful smile and his hair bouncing around in the wind. It was a magical, magical moment for me. And I didn’t know that later in my life. When I was looking at almost 40, I was going to come back to that very significant moment.
Victoria Volk 03:24
So, what happened then?
Staci Bartley 03:29
Wow, as the story goes, three years later, I found myself pregnant by my high school boyfriend that was kind of blew up my whole fancy paradigm, right? In that moment on the steps, I remember thinking I’m going to be really good at this love thing. Oh, I got this one in the bag. Right? I’ve been given all the rules and structure according to my family and my my religious paradigm. I’m gonna kill it. I’m gonna I’m not gonna stay out of the park, only to find myself devastatingly pregnant at 17 and grappling with that. I think the hard part about that piece wasn’t so much about being pregnant. Of course, that was kind of earth shattering as you, you know, just literally being a teenage child. I very young adult with no life experience was the impact that it had on my family. That that’s, that’s always that’s always been a kicker, right? It’s one thing to go through an experience. But then when you start to see that it starts to shatter the lives of the people around you what you have done, the choices that you’ve made, impact the people that you love the most. That’s the one that always gets me in the heart. And if I could go back and change it, that would be for my mom, who didn’t really know how to support me through it and who had just newly married herself. And so, I had a stepfather that it stepped into the picture at the age of 16, which was kind of the I don’t want to say it blame is the piece it was just it was motivating to not be at home. And so I found another place to be unfortunately at my boyfriend’s house where his parents and family was was much more liberal than my saving so it gave us lots of room to explore and expand and I became familiar with things I didn’t have any any knowledge of right in my environment where I came from. And the stepfather You know, he loved my mom I know but he didn’t necessarily want me to be a part of the picture and I’m sure thinking right as we’ve had conversations later in life he was basically interested in just kind of getting me moved out and on my way so that he could have that relationship with my mom that he so wanted but didn’t want to deal with me there was never a lot of love lost there so you know, that was the part that was the killer as the as the parents then then became what are we going to do with this right what are we going to what are we going to do with this I just broken up I’ve just gone to confession you know, I was just going to turn my life around get back on and then oh, oh my gosh, we’re gonna have a baby No, this can’t be and so then as best I could my mom stepped in and the first thing that she wanted to do was was kind of cover it up you know, okay, let’s send you to my aunt’s house and have you have the baby there and come back like everything’s fine. I’m thinking is that what you do? Like you know, you start to see a whole new side of things and people that you thought you knew you know, for example, not that she was trying to be dishonest but she was trying to make it look normal she was trying to look like everything was fine. And I think sometimes as human beings we we attempt to do that we want it to look according to the picture that we’ve been taught it’s supposed to look like instead of like being honest and open about the realities of life and I so wish we could do that right in our lives I so wish that we could share stories about our messes just as easily as we do about cold remedies. And you know, fixing the washer and preparing the right the cleaning the house, you know, what are your cleaning techniques, and how can I get it done have more efficient, more effective, and unfortunately, just like so many, we went to trying to cover it up, which makes you kind of even feel more shameful and guilty, you know. And I thought, oh, I don’t want to do that I’m gonna have to live with the aftermath of that. And I and for whatever reason I’m so thankful I became very, very heightened and aware that whatever decision happens in this moment is going to change the rest of my life. Right? I was very aware of that. Like, I’m going to be the one and only person that’s going to live with whatever choices are made here personally and then of course there will be the ripple out, but everybody will get past that I won’t This is going to be a lifelong decision. And so, I explored all the abortion I explored adoption and ironically an older brother of mine had just lost a stillborn just had a stillborn baby, he and his wife. And that was really sad. And I, I think that they saw this as an opportunity to kind of replace that loss. Because sometimes we think about that as far as loss to right, we think we can just kind of take the loss that we’ve experienced, and replace it with somebody else, or something else. And we attempt to do that as well. I did too. And I remember thinking No, that’s that’s not right, either. You know, they may they laid out this glorious plan about how it was going to be great. And I could still be involved in this baby’s life and then take charge of that. And then there was my cute little 19-year-old boyfriend, thank goodness he was two years older and had a job and my truck and kind of had some adulting behind him. And he wanted to get married and he wanted to save the baby wanted to have and through a lot of cry, sleepless nights and tears and conversations with myself and my sister and my mom. I decided I was going to get married. And so we had a shotgun wedding at my house do you have to make this look good. We can’t be too far along in this pregnancy. Have two families together and I wrote off and had to figure out what it was like to be a wife. And I assumed to be mom, when that little person came into my life It changed my life. And that beautiful soul is still very close to me to this day. Her and I Her name is bro we’ve grown up together. We literally grown up together and weathered many, many storms and wonderful good times. And I loved being a mom and thank goodness that was the case. You know, it’s not always the case and there’s no right or wrong there. But in my particular story in situation thank goodness for me. I really loved being a mom I was satisfied there. And so once I kind of got my bearings, I was able to go back to school and kind of start putting the wheels on again and of course as you could probably already predict the relationship wasn’t gonna last you fell apart within the first 12 months. And then I found myself 19 years old, and on my own and doing college and work in a lumber store, and just trying to be a good person again, right, just trying to go back to where I came from the roots that I felt like we’re intrinsic to me and who I want to be. And you just start, you start growing, you start learning, and you start looking for how to do that, right. And so then, as I’m working it out, I decided I’m going to start dating again and Michael stone really good about how this was going and wham bam, I found myself pregnant a second time at 20. So that was a whole we just kind of like a repeat, you know, so you know that saying that they have about lessons in life. But then the lesson will continue to be presented until it’s learned. Yeah, that’s really a true thing come to find out, right? Yeah, that’s, that’s real. So um, gosh, I got pregnant, it’s like, are pregnant a second time married a second time. And this time, I was gonna do it right. And it was going to be my penance for all the things that I had done wrong, I was going to, you know, make some, some reparations. And I was going to do it right. And well, this time, and thankfully, the, this person I had made it up, this was going to be the person because it was my come from my religion, we come from a very similar background, we were very in alignment, and he was trying to put his life back together too. And so we were going to tag team this and hold hands and we were going to follow rules. This time, we were going to do it by the book. And so this idea of the perfect life and the perfect family and the perfect children, and the perfect scenario took on some ferocity. And in the end, that’s really what killed her marriage was I there wasn’t any flexibility for navigating the messes and the ups and downs of life that had to be by the book. And more and more as the constraints of that kind of started to crush in on us. His mental health challenge that being a bipolar struggled to rage out of control. And at the time, I didn’t see that it had something to do with me in the way that I was showing up in my relationship to that’s the interesting thing about relationships is there’s always a cause and effect to it, right, as much as we can point fingers and, and blame the other person for how they’re showing up. There’s a cause and effect to that. And there’s probably a piece of something that I might be doing to cause them to want to show up like that. So in this particular case, my husband would just go missing, right, and they’re finding himself in office several miles away from our family home, and we just go missing and was battling his own challenges with addiction. And you know, he wasn’t perfect, and he knew it wasn’t perfect, but there was no room to have that conversation in our relationship. Certainly not with me. As I was doing I remember him like grabbing my my shoulders one day and saying Why can’t you just be less perfect? Why can’t you just make more of a mess because then I think I’d feel better. I didn’t understand I thought that was the plan. I thought we were supposed to do this right? Right, I mean, and so it was just pull it together for you pull it together, pull it together, and there was not really a lot of emotional support for him. So that relationship of course come crashing down 13 years later, and by then we had adopted a family daughter being the oldest and we had had four more so I was leaving the house with five babies in tow. And once again, kind of trying to piece it together and put it back together. And that’s really where my my journey and the work that I did now started to come into play. I started learning everything I could get my hands on personal development thanks thankfully, my husband couldn’t stay in that box couldn’t stay perfect couldn’t stay with inside of the lines not I told him since is the greatest gift he ever gave me. Because if I would have continued to stay in that paradigm I would have never had the opportunity to become who I am today and do the work that I do and and be suffering for that right and we forget about that especially when it’s difficult Don’t you think we forget about that how is this situation going to add to my life in the future who it is that I’m becoming? And that’s what I love to say there’s there’s no failing there’s no wasted experience in life. There’s, there’s there’s things that we make messes, right? But mistakes are different than failure failure implies at least for me that you can’t get up and you can’t go again when that’s really all that needs to be done. is okay. Well, gosh, what did we learn there and that kind of hurt. Gosh, that that knocked me I don’t see that coming. Okay, let’s go again and try again. Anything would be better than not doing anything. So, moving forward became the only way I knew how to get up. Just, you know, go again, just try your best to put one foot in front of the other and see where it leads you It’s better than staying here in this hellhole, right? Let’s go. And little by little I just I, I was immersed in personal development became a facilitator that stepped into becoming a CH t certified hypnotherapist but took me on to becoming as I was involved in my own recovery and counseling process, I was able to extend and teach what it is I had learned and the principles that I was learning in my own life. I think that really helped me to develop some confidence and some self esteem. And then that just kind of continued to go on, it took me into studying the body and health that took me into quantum physics and neuroscience that took me into studying psychology and and what was so interesting is regardless of the realm that I was in whether I was trying to be that counselor or I was trying to be that digestive health support coach, or where I was learning those herbal tinctures or that raw food, I was teaching that raw food class, you know, at the community college, I’d always find myself in the back of the room talking to somebody about their relationships, whether that was the relationship with ourselves relationship with a lover or relationship with their children or parents, right, I consistently all of a sudden became aware that I was always in these conversations of navigating relationships. So there I am, right little by little. That’s how I arrived at the work that I do today, the passionate place that I have, there’s not too many things that you could throw at me that I haven’t probably personally lift. And I say that with all the grace and humble emotions of that it’s just experiences on my heart. And please don’t try and blow me out because that would just be a tragedy. So, you know, that’s always the biggie, when people come in with their relationship challenges is, you know, is Am I safe here? Can I really share you the real deal with you can we really get raw and it’s like, I’m with you there, I probably walked a mile in your shoes, which I think really lends to my passion of teaching through experiences, not only the knowledge that I learned that the experiences that I have. So, I spent 15 years, raising my family and I flipped into instead of wanting to be this people pleaser, or do it right perfectionistic I kind of flipped to the way for our side of the scale of like, I’m an independent woman now baby, and I’m doing life on my own terms. And I’m not proud of this but men kind of became a thing for me to kind of became like a byproduct that I was trying to come from men more to be used on my terms. And according to my rules and my structure, I’m going to tell you how this is going to go and why and when. And then when I’m done, go ahead and be gone with you. I’m not proud of that at all. And I say this because if there’s ever any of my wonderful people who contributed to who I became on my journey, I just want them to know that I see that. And then I’m sorry, right? I’m sorry for those things. I’m trying to find myself and you have to understand the know that as human beings that’s what we do. We don’t do it because we’re trying to be mean or unkind or thoughtful. We’re doing it because we’re trying to heal ourselves. And it’s messy. It’s really really messy and that doesn’t make it okay, and it doesn’t make it any less egregious. But if I’m a hot mess trying to figure myself out, I really don’t have anything to contribute to those around me. But even if they are extending love to me sometimes, I can’t let it in. So, all of this to bring us back to that moment where you had me start in this conversation Victoria right the woman on the porch there for 35 years my brother and sister-in-law continued to say to me Hey Stacy, you don’t know my friend Tom or Tom that lives in California but he’s you know, fill in the blank. He started a business he’s got married he’s I was little kids. Um, and I have done quite a bit of work, but the Economic Development Office for the state of Utah, and it’s pretty tapped in network wise. And I got a call from the same brother-in-law one day and saying hey stays, but you know, my friend Donna loves California, but hey, he’s trying to extend this business into you, Tom. I’d love to give him your phone number set. Okay. I was like that, like, Eric Yeah, bring it on. I don’t know. I just I was curious to just have a conversation with him because for 35 years I’ve never even like engaged with him since that wedding or were heard his voice or even knew this person, Tom, but through years of my own journey relationally the ups and downs, I would have literal journal entries of Gosh, I just wish I could meet a tall man like Tom some days I’m tears on the page, right? And then I get I remember throwing it dice like that I don’t even know Tom, what am I saying? That’s the craziest thought ever. Why would you write something so stupid She goes, we can get so critical with ourselves to journal across the room right? In my fitting rage of trying to figure out this relationship journey thing that was kicked in my tracks the one that I was supposed to be so good at, remember the one that I was going to knock out of the park and get so right. And it had just been one epic failure for me after another as I grapple and try and understand and go again, right? And so I was like, heck yeah, happened, give me a call. That’s just crazy mind blowing. The rest of history, as they say, if we got on the phone and started talking, we didn’t talk about persons for very long. And we started to get to know each other. And there was this aha moment where all of a sudden, I went, oh, wow, there’s going to be an opportunity to explore a relationship with this person. But remember, I was that independent woman who didn’t need a man, I was never going to get married, I was never gonna commit again, done through over that, you know, I’ve done two and done, films, put it away, let’s be done. But I didn’t want to have kids, I had plenty of those. And so, then I was left with this understanding and knowledge about relationships that they’re either growing, or you’re either kind of reaching forward motion, or they’re kind of starting to slough off of it. And I found myself in a huge quandary of like, what am I gonna do here? What? I’m not getting married back, I told him conversation to with exploring our relationship, I just need you to know that I am never going to get married again. Are you good with that? If not, it’s deal killer. That’s how like committed I was. Like, no, no. So as you’re nine months into our exploring relationship back and forth, 600 miles apart, what do you do? When it comes to the place where you know that conversation of kind of going steady, so what are we conversation is coming, and you have so much commitment phobia? It’s, um, believable, like, can’t go there? No, no, nope. No. It was in the throes of this conversation. Literally, in the middle of the night, I was down in my basement because I didn’t want to wake my kids. Tom would call me late at night, we would talk through the night. It just kind of worked for us. He was in California; I was in Utah. We’d go back and forth and had some great times. And again, this relationship was just trying to take on some ferocity and eight, nine months, and I knew it was coming. I just could feel it was coming. And we’re having a great conversation. And you can just feel the energies, like snap, and I’m like, oh, here it goes. He’s gonna say so what are we what are we doing here? Like, are we gonna make a thing out of this or not? And I remember panicking in my panic. I just wanted to bring some humor into it, right? I just Oh, here we go. And he says, So Stacy, what are we? And I I just this litany of my mouth racing was like, I don’t know, I don’t know. How about a lease option, contract or love? I mean, I that’s all I could give. I don’t know that. That’s funny, huh? What if that’s a real thing. And it was actually his genius where he goes, he knows days. Tell me about what that would be. I mean, like this kind of ingenious idea. I was like, really? Like, like, we could do that. And he’s like, why couldn’t wait, right? Why couldn’t we blow up the paradigm and make it our own its own relationship? Would you want to go steady with me? Yeah, yeah, I think I do. So I set about literally taking everything I’d known and everything I’d studied, and all of the places where I felt like I was afraid and needed support. And I wrote up a first lease option contract for love. And I only made it 30 days, you know, we don’t want to get too ahead of ourselves here. But I thought I can get all in for 30 days, right? I can make this work for 30 days. And then if it doesn’t go well, it’s just Hey, then fun. I’m capping out, you can go your way I’ll go mine, no problem. And so we signed it. And it became this place where every week we would do evaluations better relationship and if I was meeting your needs and if you were meeting mine and that became this literally coaching idea where I would say if you could do it more like this, or if you could hold me more like that and and he would do the same and we were literally teaching each other how to love each other best. The conversations that we never have in relationships, the places where we feel like we can never go and saying this is where I’m really at and this is why I’m hurting. Could you just give me this and it was a game changer? We did 30 days and of course I wanted to do 90 days we did 90 days and then I want to lock him up for five years and the thing that was interesting about that whole experience is I realized that it wasn’t commitment that I was afraid that’s what we say right? I’m commitment phobic but wasn’t committed. It meant that I was afraid of it was navigating the inevitable change that my experience had taught me was sure to come. That’s what I didn’t know how to navigate. And if I promise, if I get married, then it becomes this finite stuck in stone experience that I don’t know how to navigate with, even though I know I’m going to change, you’re going to change the relationship, and our circumstances and our lives are going to change. How do you do that? Because I’m not gonna stay the person that I am when I marry you. And when I say to I do it, when we move in together, this whole thing is going to flux. And so that that really was a huge aha moment for me. I was a divorce mediator at the time. And I started using that in my practice, and it worked like a gym, where people could actually get all in and give one last good try at their relationship before they called it quits, knowing and feeling and sensing that they had really done all that they could do. And the wonderful thing about a lease option contract is it tells you why it’s not going to go forward. If you’re not you understand. And you’ve also shared and said all the things that you’ve wanted to say for so long. And you’ve known that they’re hurt, because you’re signing off on that they’re hurt, right. And so, there’s this incredible piece of validation, as well as working with the parts and pieces that truly affect our lives emotionally. And that was that was a game changer for me, that I love to teach and highlight on the work that I do for couples coming together. Right? It’s a new relationship, they want it to go different. They are trying to get over commitment phobia like me, or they’re trying to give it one last run before they decide what they’re going to do next. It works in all those places very, very beautifully.
Victoria Volk 26:47
Wow. Thank you for sharing all of that. Thank you, a lot to digest and go back to and highlight. There’s a couple things that came up for me as I listened to your stories. And I do have a quick question. And actually, I’m going to write a note here. So, I don’t forget one note, I want to come back to when I ask I’m gonna ask you a question. I want to get your thoughts because it’s come up in the circles that I’ve, I’m in? And I just want to hear what your responses. What does it mean to you to be in a relationship with yourself? What does that mean to you?
Staci Bartley 27:31
It’s everything. And I’m going to be so bold as to take this a step further. At the end of the day, the creation that we have all been given this life that we live, right, I draw it on the board for my students as an I am circle, this is me. And every moment of every day, amongst everything that’s possible in the world in the universe, I am re identify who I am in this moment. It happens through a principle called contrast. Contrast is simply the experiences I have is a living human being that says this works for me, this doesn’t work for me, this is me, this is not me. This used to work for me, but this doesn’t work anymore. And whether we realize that or not this ever evolving, unfolding person that we all are and have the beauty and the privilege of being on this planet has number one, the seeds of your creation. It’s your DNA, it knows what you’ve come here to be to do to become to express and it tells us all the time, what that is. And at the end of the day, when it comes to the relationship with myself, it is everything. It is life itself. And at the end of the day, it really doesn’t give two shits about anybody else because it is dedicated to you becoming who you have the capacity to be. That’s it. Relationships are attracted into our lives. And they help show us the places inside of ourselves. Right? And that contrast that work and that don’t work, that we’re shutting down that we’re putting up with it. We’re going along with that we’re right not showing up and it’s constantly nudging us, right? It’s constantly speaking to us, just like our physical body say, I’m tired. I need a drink of water. I gotta poop right? Now figure it out. It says this, isn’t you. Why are you lying? Why are you letting go? or why aren’t you letting go? Why are crumbling, it’s time to go. It’s time to move. Come on. Let’s go. You can do this, right? It’s talking to us all the time. But instead of listening to that, we listen to the exterior around us thinking that they know better than us as our individual selves. I would say the relationship with yourself is life itself. And when you violate that, you violate the being that you are. That’s what I have to say about that.
Victoria Volk 29:57
goosebumps. goosebumps. Because that really speaks to intuition, it speaks to living in integrity with yourself, what you value, honoring your own values, identifying when your values are being dishonored, all of that. That’s brilliant. I love how you just so eloquently set it to.
Staci Bartley 30:19
Well, thank you I think the the thing about relationships that really trips us up is that we’re trying to do them in a manner of pleasing someone else. And that if I sacrifice myself right, love is sacrifice, we say it’s a choice, we have all these little stories I would say about what love is, and love is permission. And I really want your listeners to hear that permission is what love is unconditional love is not sacrifice of self or obligation, it’s not sacrificing myself to please you. And when you’re happy than I can be. Those are all the places of manipulation where we get hung up in personalization, etc. And those are the places where we, we hear all the mental health challenges that come as a byproduct of our relationships, right? The gaslighting the gnarly, you know, all the common labels that we have in the mental health world, around my relationship with so and so the real problem is, is that it’s it’s a form of manipulation. And you think that by making them happy or finding a person that you can make happy is going to make you happy, know, what’s going to make you happy, is you aligning with who you are and who you have the capacity to be, and learning how to listen to that creation that you are. Because that’s new life for the person for each of us individually. relationships, I love to say they are the best personal growth vehicle on the planet. If you want to do some personal growth, you want to put it on steroids. Just get it into a relationship, it’ll take care of everything. It’ll bring up all your insecurities, all your fears, your shortcomings, all the things that you want to pull your hair out about. Right, it gives you more, it gives you more everything, more problems to solve more challenges to face. Yes, more love has the potential to give you more acceptance, more more comfort, like there’s a lot of more in there on the good side, too. It’s not just that, but we think that it’s going to solve our life’s problems and not realize what the what it is, is the vehicle that it truly is in our lives, right? The gifts and why we attract it into our lives is just to help us grow. It’s to help us to become who we are. And like I already said, our soul, our self, the person you have the capacity to be really doesn’t care about anybody else. It’s dedicated to you becoming who you have the capacity to be in this very short window, you have to live. Right? Are you going to do it? Are you going to go for it? Are you gonna be it? Are you going to sacrifice and give it to somebody else? And I tell you what it will kick your fanny. If that’s your choice, you can try that it will continue to kick your fanny until the day leave this planet.
Victoria Volk 33:00
Do you think it’s possible then? If relationships aren’t like this self growth vehicle that we sign up for? Do you think it’s possible that you can do that in partnership with someone else? And stay together? I mean, obviously, there’s people that are married 50-60 years, right? Are they married 50-60 years because they have this secret sauce or secret secret that no one else knows? Like? Can you speak to that?
Staci Bartley 33:33
Yes, I love that question. So just for the record, I’m married, and I’ve been with my partner for 10 years, Tom, but same guys on the porch. Yes, absolutely. You can do it in partnership. And you can do it for lifelong partnership. And love. Remember what I said just a moment ago is permission. It’s permission for me to be me. And to feel the way I feel by nature that I need to get that permission to you too. It’s not a one-way street here. You get to have the permission to if I really love you to feel the way you feel, and to be where you are to have the needs and the struggles that you have to. My only job in partnership with you is it would be as a friend, as a lover, as a as a daughter as a business partner, right? My only my only position I can take is somebody of support. It’s not my job to fix you. It’s not my job to figure that out for you. What’s going on. My only place with inside of working with myself is to support you. And you becoming all that you can be to as I do the work of doing what I can be. And then this whole relationship experience takes on a totally different trajectory. It’s not about who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s not about right, who which way we should go when we fight and argue about that. It becomes everybody has a peace of mind. attribute into the relationship, it becomes a conversation that sounds like this. So, what do you got? This is what I got. Where are you? This is where I’m at what’s possible now? Oh, wow, okay, well hold on that one. What now? What do you got it? Where are you? It’s Hawaii, you look like you’re struggling? How can I support you today? What do you need? Is there anything I can do to make your life better? And sometimes it’s just leave me alone. I can’t, I can’t ship that to you right now. I’m sorry. The biggest problem that I see in relationships is there’s no permission to say no, there’s no permission to be where you are. And there’s no permission to meet what you need when you need it. It’s run-on manipulation and leverage, nine times out of 10. And it’s not our fault. It’s what we’ve been taught in our society. manipulation is the systems that we have been raised in. And I want to create a little clarity, if I may, there, Victoria. But the end of the day manipulation is really simple. It seems complicated, it seems scary. We’ll grab our chest and go, oh, I don’t do that. Yes, you do. You’re a human being. That’s what we do. Because we don’t know how to ask for our needs to be met, we manipulate, we drop a hint, we write we kind of try and coerce we, we spend a great story so that you’ll finally give me what it is I say I want but at the end of the day manipulation is just one price. If you’ll do what I say, you’ll get what you want. And we’re all vying for the same position, because that’s the power position where I get to call the shots. And this is what escalates our conversations, and we dangle what it is you want, so that I can enroll you in doing what I need you to do, it’s gonna make me feel better. And that plays out in our, you know, our work system. You’ve got to work good paycheck; I’ll give you what you want. Just what you want, you want money, right? Okay, do this job you don’t like, and I’ll give you some money. What about our legal system, you’ll obey the rules, you’ll have your freedom, we won’t lock you up in our classrooms, right? You do the course curriculum, you get good grades, and I’m giving you your diploma. There’s always this kind of tit for tat, that we play in our society. And we even raise our families, that way, I have raised my kids that way. And to get chores done, you can take the car, and go to your friend’s house, I’ll give you your allowance, right? There’s, there’s all of this, do what I say, and you’ll get what you want, even in love. If you do what I say, I’ll accept you, I love you, I’ll be there for you. I’ll hold you, we can have sex tonight, there’s always leverage points, where I’m leveraging my relationship with my mother. And we don’t even realize we’re doing it because it is so taught in our society.
Victoria Volk 37:40
So, what do you do about it?
Staci Bartley 37:43
You start the permission of, hey, this is where I’m at where you told me about that? Let’s learn, it becomes more of a conversation for understanding instead of who’s right and who’s wrong. Who’s got it all figured out? Or whose way is best? Everybody’s ways best. And if we could hear and understand those parts and pieces, there would be a whole new way that would birth to get us through it. Just like the lease option contract for love. Let’s go back to that as an example. What was the pressure? Tom could have just as easily leveraged you into a place where you want me, then you’d better get in? Because this door leaving. That’s manipulation. Instead of saying, hey, you’re panicking, you’re freaking out right now. Like you have a lot of commitment phobia here. Now, he could have also said, You’re a hot mess girlfriend. I don’t want anything to do with that still killer. Next, you could have done that, too. Right? Could have leveraged on either side of that. But that’s not what happened. Let me share. And I could tell him how afraid I was, I could share with him that this was a terrifying moment for me. And I didn’t know how to navigate it, which was the truth. Right? And then I could say, Oh, no, no. What about this idea? Anyway, that’s a really great idea. Let’s see where it takes us. Let’s go I’m in. And we created something that was completely different than any of the paradigms out there, which could happen in our human experiences more often, just like we do in tech, just like we do with new software. Relationships really aren’t a different container in our lives. The principles that apply everywhere else in our lives approach applies here in relationships as well. We just don’t use them. We think it has to go a certain way according to the story and the narrative that we’ve been taught. And we force ourselves into being people that were not in the hopes that we’ll be loved. Which to me is the greatest tragedy of all right? I’ve lived that. I’ve tried to push myself into being something that I was not so that I could, you know, help my family recover. Repair from the grief that I created for them the ripples that went out and shops, right then the extended family. I tried to do my best to be something that I wasn’t in it didn’t work it actually created More health challenges and break down for me as it does for all of us. Right? So there has to be permission, we have to take these paradigms of, you know, person meets person, we get married, we have babies, right? And if we, do it right, and if you’re right, and I’m right, we’re going to live happily ever after. That is a story. But that story is a lie. It’s like the Santa Claus story. It’s not reality, as we all try and force ourselves into these paradigms that we know we’re not what we think, what’s the other way? What else are we supposed to do? How do you create a committed relationship and partnership, if you don’t do x? There’s lots of ways, but we don’t entertain those kinds of conversations. There’s no permission at all.
Victoria Volk 40:48
It sounds like to me like this contract for love is very much moldable to each individual, what they contribute and what they want to bring to the relationship or what they do bring to the relationship. Is that accurate in saying that it can work for anybody? Like it’s not like this prescription? of do this, do that, do this, do that? And you’ll end up with why you know, x plus, you know, z equals y, whatever it is? I don’t remember that. But I mean, is that accurate? insane?
Staci Bartley 41:22
100% accurate? We use it for multicultural couples, we use it for interracial couples, we use it for couples who have different religious backgrounds, cultural backgrounds. Because it is it all it is is you discovering and uncovering what you need and want out of this relationship emotionally. Right? It’s, and then you let the other person reveal that that’s the process. So, whatever is in that lease option, contract is a byproduct of who you see yourself as in this moment. And then it will constantly evolve and grow with you through time. Because that’s all going to change. All of its going to change. That’s why you, you want to do evaluations, but you also want to do evaluation. So, you can say, hey, I really, really want to get good at this. I mean, that’s the thing is when we step into relationships, and release, let’s say we we stepped to the altar, and we’re trying to live that story of marriage, and I’m not anti marriage, I’m married. When we step to say, hey, I do, I want to give my life to you. As human beings, we’re really stepping forward and saying, I really want to give us my best shot. I really want this to go well. We’re not saying hey, I’m gonna really screw you over the day, I step up to that altar. I’m not saying that, saying, I really want to do my best here, right? And if we could be honest, we would say I’m, I’m terrified, right? I don’t know how this is gonna go. But I’m willing to take a gamble on it, right. And that’s where the lease option contract for me gave me so much comfort, because I knew I could come back. And we can talk about what worked and what didn’t work for me. And you could do the same. And I would teach you, which is our responsibility as a human being. It’s our responsibility to teach each other how to love ourselves best, we’re the only ones that know what anyone wants to know what we need. And what are we taught instead, to make a checklist, check all the boxes, right? And it’s usually the physical aspects, or they gotta have money, and they got to be sexy, they got to be a hunk, or right, they got to come from a good family, they got to be a certain religion, none of those things are going to do anything for you, at the end of the day, when you start talking about the emotional experience you’re going to have in your relationship. What about all of that, because if that goes haywire, you’re really not going to care about the money, I have lost the couples who come home to empty houses, and yet the wives have given everything on the planet. I’m not going to make it to church because I can’t get my Fanny out of the bed. It’s not going to matter, right? I’m not going to be able to, you know, see some of these co creations called our kids through because we’re a hot mess. We can’t be there for him. So, you don’t have anything to contribute. And yet we use those benchmarks circumstantially as, oh, this is good person. reality is we’re all good people. We are all doing the very best, we know how. And until we know how to do better, we will do what we know. And when our backs get pressed against the wall emotionally, what most of us know is some form of manipulation, leverage, defense, attack, personalization. Those are the things that have been modeled to us. Not permission. Not a place where I say, hey, you’re really struggling, what do you need? How can I support you? You don’t know how, okay, well, I’m right here and you let me know and I’ll be ready. And then I if I’m on a support person, or role, I’m going to go, go be happy, I better go be happy because there’s going to be an emotional drain from a loved one that’s going to be required of me if I want to truly support them, I better keep my own wills together, right? If only I can do that. There’s only going to be me that knows how I want you to hold Me for touch me for comfort me. For those specific words, I need you to say to me when I’m hurting, I’ve literally taught Tom to come up from behind me, when I’m turning into a hot mess, doesn’t matter if it’s fine or I’m having a bad day, kiss me on the back of my neck, and whisper in my ear state, we got this, because that’s what I need to hear, regardless of what’s breaking down inside of me, right? And every single time even though I’ve taught it to him, and it’s as unromantic, as unromantic can be, it works every single time. And he has one for me, too. And as it changes and evolves, we can play around with it. I don’t like that, oh, yeah, it’s kind of like getting somebody to finally scratch your itch, you know, like, oh, that is the best. And there’s only one person in the whole wide world who knows what that is. And that’s us, individually. So that relationship with ourselves becomes so, so so important.
Victoria Volk 45:54
The one thing and the one word that really came up, and is kind of like the crux of everything is change, right? And that’s a grief is a change in a familiar pattern of behavior, right? Its grief is inevitable in our lives. And based on what you’ve shared in relationships, as well. And so, when we’re not feeling like those needs are being met, or not feeling like we’re, we personally feel like we have shame or guilt because we’re not meeting the needs of the person that we said, we would love for the rest of our lives. There’s guilt and shame in that there’s grief there. So, it’s just one big hot mess. Grief pot, right? Until we can become emotionally honest.
Staci Bartley 46:41
Yes
Victoria Volk 46:42
That’s really what it’s about is becoming emotionally honest.
Staci Bartley 46:45
Oh, I love that you said that word. You are so brilliant. Yes, it’s absolutely becoming emotionally honest. And I have a process in my work called emotional weightlifting. Because most of us are so so very weak when it comes to our emotional bodies. In fact, a lot of us don’t even realize we have emotional bodies, we have a physical body, we have an emotional body, the one is invisible, right, and we feel it, we know it’s there. And then we have this physical body that we give a lot of time and attention to typically. And that’s our navigation system. And we don’t know how to create strengthen our emotional bodies, like we would go for a physical workout. And so, we have an emotional weightlifting gym, where it’s, it’s, of course, emotional, but it’s it’s learning how to show up. It’s learning how to own your emotions. state where you are, give yourself that permission to just look and see inside what those are. Because when it comes to relationships, the hardest thing for us to do for ourselves, the relationship with ourselves or others, is to just simply amass the courage to show up and tell the truth, right, like you said that emotional honesty is the thing that’s going to hunt us down. It’s the thing that’s going to kick our Fannie’s again and again and again. Man, I’ve had my Fanny kicked over that one so many times. the whole pregnancy and such right.
Victoria Volk 48:14
I have a follow up question of that. And that, what if you’re doing the work, you’re personally showing up in that way and working on yourself and trying to understand yourself and working through that stuff. But your partner is kind of stagnant? They’re not really jiving on the whole personal development work on myself. Let’s figure this out. You know, they’re not on the same page, what do you do, then?
Staci Bartley 48:44
I won’t either think about the only thing you can do is that support where we talked about, right? And be a demonstration and the demonstration is far better than the words that are going to come out of your mouth. And one or two things is going to happen. Because believe me, if in partnerships, if somebody is starting to grow and outpace the partner, everybody knows. And oftentimes that’s what shuts the other person down. Because they’re afraid to go there. And they’re hoping that they can enroll you in not going where it is you need to go. I had a I had a beautiful relationship that taught me this front and center. I was I was I was at the height of understanding a lot of things about myself and my own personal growth journey. And he was terrified to go there. He did not want to go there because why? Why would that happen? Because they don’t want to confront themselves. It really doesn’t have anything to do with loving you and not loving because they’ve got their own process to sort out with inside of themselves. Remember that relationship with self. Well, that one’s a hot mess. And they know that in order to grow just like you are growing, they’re going to have to confront look at some things with inside of themselves. And I just Need, I just need you to ponder the question for a minute, who are we to tell anybody what time and when to do that work? That my job is their job. It’s their relationship with themselves. It’s their connection to whatever we call the divine universe, God spirit. It’s not my job to enroll them, coerce them, convince them, but I can invite them. And I can be a demonstration of what that looks like. And then yes, the truth is the part that we never talked about is there may come a point in time where that relationship will not be able to write survive, it will separate. But here’s the mind Bender, who’s to say that’s a bad thing. Those are off times that catalytic events in our lives that then go, Oh, I can’t tell you how many partners all of a sudden, once they say, I’m not going to stay in this relationship, this is over. Okay, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I’m going to go there. And that’s what it took for them to finally be willing to raise their hand and say, Okay, I’m going to come to the table, I was so scared. I’m so scared. That’s what’s written on the show. I am so terrified to look at myself and to go there into those places that I need. I know I need to go in order to be where you are and showing me what you’re accomplishing. And maybe sometimes take something like that right? You think I think that’s the upside of grief, don’t you? Don’t you think that’s the upside of grief is that those grief moments are the catalytic moments that causes us to see things or be willing to do things that maybe we were never willing to do before. I was too afraid to confront others too afraid to say that I was too afraid to go there. And it finally gets so painful you go Screw it, okay, whatever. Come and claim I’m going to tell you the truth, right? If we didn’t have that pain as the characteristic like push us sometimes like those little edges, we know we need to jump off but we’re just too afraid to do so, we wouldn’t do it we even do it.
Victoria Volk 52:01
We even resist that for, we can resist that for decades though too
Staci Bartley 52:09
Yeah, long as possible, long as possible we’re going to try and get over it under it around it right out skirted lie about it, pretend it doesn’t exist, I mean you know we have our little things and finally, when something like that that’s important to us, we’re gonna see a lot of catalytic events now just because of the post COVID thing you know, historically these are moments where people are going to finally jump in and get married or jump into have that baby or in their relationship enough because we’ve come front to front with our mortality, right we come face to face with crap, I can’t take the pain anymore. Screw it. It’s there’s no a lot to think about there but but everything transforms jobs let get let go of that aren’t a good fit. Once I get into them, I they were a good fit for a while and now they’re not right businesses that I start some of them startups some of them I need to let go of some family members I was really close to I let go write some letters I am close to I let go up. And when you think about it, that’s just as normal and natural as other things in this world.
Victoria Volk 53:18
I had this picture come into my mind that’s like when you’re, when you’re in the mess within the thick of it, it’s really hard to see the start line. And I don’t say the finish line, I say the start line because that’s really when your life starts. When you decide that you’re ready to just clean up the mess. It’s like I was telling my kids, you make a mess, you clean it up. And that was such a as you’re speaking to it’s like that as an analogy for life. You make a mess; you clean it up. Whether it’s within yourself in your relationships, you know, you need to apologize, apologize, you made a mess, apologize. Often oftentimes if you know if we think we need forgiveness, oftentimes we need to apologize for something,
Staci Bartley 54:01
Even with inside of ourselves, you know, sometimes when I when I feel like I’ve hurt somebody’s feelings, or I realized I want to I want to do over I call them do overs. I want to want to take another crack at that that didn’t go the way I wanted it to go or what I intended to communicate came out wrong, right? We don’t realize that in cleaning up those emotional messages because we don’t talk about them. We don’t talk about how to clean up emotional messes. Where do you go to learn that? We don’t realize that we can create a deal over and so in real time call up a friend and say hey, I just really want to apologize about what just happened or what was said and, and inevitably nine times out of 10 they’ll get Oh no, no, no, it’s really no problem. You know, he didn’t do that at all. They’re trying to comfort me. And then I’ll say please just just hear me. I appreciate that. That didn’t come across the way I feel like it did. I’m actually cleaning this up for me. I need to tell you, I’m sorry that did not go the way I want in a bit to go. And thank you for letting me do that we don’t realize sometimes that’s a gift for the person who’s wanting to clean up a mess for themselves. Remember, it all goes back to that relationship with ourselves. So, like, I need to do this for me. And I need you to be able to do this for me. And we don’t realize what a gift that is that we give to others. Love In addition to being permission is really the ability to give and receive. And if we get stuck on either side of that equation, it’s going to be rough with Lima. I never give her Gover Gover, Gover and don’t ever allow myself to receive, that’s going to be a problem if I’m a receiver, receiver receiver. And I never allow myself to learn how to give, that’s going to be a problem. But you want to be able to adapt and have the ability to do both and learn in practice when and how to do both. And we want to be able to learn how to clean up our messes because they’re inevitable. They are so inevitable it’s going to love is the grandest journey and it is the messiest journey on the planet. And we’ve got to learn to be okay with that. But there is not anything perfect about it. Right. And yet, that’s the pursuit of trying to be perfect. I have a perfect partner a perfect this perfect that it doesn’t exist. It’s just a story. It’s a great story. I like the story. But it’s just a story the end of the day.
Victoria Volk 56:17
Let’s talk about story as well, like stemming in childhood because we’re like really getting long on time. So, it’s okay to go here real quick. But just talking about the stories that we are born into and raised around about grief about what, what it’s like to love and be loved. And how ingrained in our DNA that that kind of becomes, and how we kind of live into that. Because I know for you personally as well. You didn’t have your father in your formidable years. And so, and then when you had a stepfather, it was like, Nope, just go along, get on your way. So, do you feel like how you approached relationships with the opposite sex was greatly shaped by that childhood experience?
Staci Bartley 57:17
Yeah, absolutely. Losing a person as a child, set me on the path to realizing how important and precious relationships really were. I remember this moment where the casket of my, or the lid of my dad’s casket was closing. And I thought that wasn’t my blankie that I saw love that always gave me comfort I wanted, right, it wasn’t my favorite toys, my favorite dolls, my doll house wasn’t my stuffed animals on the bed, it was just my dad. And you realize, man, that’s the most precious thing I have as a kid, and it kind of sets us off. And I set me off on a path initially of just being a pleaser, all I have to do is please make people happy. And then I’m gonna always have people that I love in my life. Until that didn’t work. And so, then I swung obviously to the other side saying, okay, what’s going to be done at my terms and a crack the whip, you know, the my rules, my way or the highway, like didn’t work either. Right? It doesn’t, and absolutely shapes you and I think you crave that attention from from a male person, right? You want that love and that acceptance and appreciation, and we make it up. But it has to come from that without realizing what I really needed was me. I even remember being a single person after my first divorce. And I really, really believed with all my kids that all I needed to do was insert a man here and then it was all gonna work out it was all gonna be okay. Looking back, you know, my kids didn’t need a man in their life. That’s not what they needed. They needed me. You didn’t need to be there for them to be whole and happy and joyful, so that I had something to pour into them. Fine, frantically running around a hot mess, trying to find mount insert here thinking that’s gonna make my family perfect. They needed me, wasn’t it? Right? It was that simple. And so we make up these things that we think we need that are going to be a life changing moment. And you have to realize there isn’t a life changing moment. Life that’s going to march on day in and day out. Thank goodness with the renewal process. That is to give us another chance to get up to go to try again. It’s going to be messy, and we got to get good with that we’ve got to let go of this idea of perfect getting it all right. Love to say there’s nothing wrong with you. We are not broken as human beings. We are amazing and resilient and capable and strong. We are so courageous so much more than we even realize. What we don’t have is the ability to understand how to navigate when it hurts and to talk about that and to share without that, and to realize that it’s part of the journey, we heard emotionally, we think we’ve done something wrong. Well, he wouldn’t think like, if you cut your finger, you’d done something wrong. I mean, it was unfortunate, but you wouldn’t think you were a bad person because you accidentally were chopping a tomato and cut your finger, you would address the pain, you would look at it, you would remedy it, and you would take care of it and move on. And so, it must become with our emotional pain to write. We sweep it up, we make amends, We, we say what we need to say, we get the comfort that we need. And we sweep it up, and we put it in the trash can and we leave it in the trash can unfortunately, with our emotions, sometimes we have a tendency to dig back through, I think, miss something, right?
Victoria Volk 1:00:46
Or I gotta keep it just in case, I might need this emotion later.
Staci Bartley 1:00:53
Exactly. And instead of realizing, look, if it’s a problem, it’s gonna show up again, down the future, just I might cut my finger again, might happen, but I worry about it, I’m probably more likely to cut it again. And again, and again, right there were noticed that get really nervous about cut it again and again and again until you realize to find some use with it, right? So, I say we got to take out our emotional trash, we have to leave it in the can leave it there. And that’s hard for us. We think we understand we’re missing, sift through it one more time. No, just if it’s a problem, it’ll show up down the road, just go. Right, and then we’ll address it then and not one second before because unfortunately, we spend a lot of time worrying about things that are going to happen again. And then we missed the rest period. And then when that happens again, right? It happens again, I’m like, so I’m always living in this place where it’s happened. And it’s happened again and again and again, that realizing it’s because of the way I’m holding it. I won’t take the trash out, let it be. And that’s a conversation that we talk a lot about in the work that I do with affairs, you know, infidelity and betrayal. Right, that’s a huge part of broken hearts. We’re afraid that if we let go of it, that we’re going to be in pain without telling the truth that actually you’re in pain right now. Like, right? You’re so worried that’s going to happen again, you’re in pain, you’re not allowing yourself to enjoy what’s like refreshing. What’s happening, that’s different. Now enjoy it, get it all over. You love it. And if it happens down the road, we’ll address it again then. But you’re not going to stop it from happening. You’re just going to live as though it’s happened again already right now.
Victoria Volk 1:02:32
Yeah, it doesn’t matter if it does again, because you’re already feeling it in your mind in your heart.
Staci Bartley 1:02:37
And your body’s already paying the price for it.
Victoria Volk 1:02:40
Unnecessary suffering that we inflict on ourselves, right?
Staci Bartley 1:02:44
Yeah, I think well, who was it that said, there’s a there’s a wonderful woman who said, I wish I could remember her name. I can’t right now it’s not coming to me. You can’t hurt me. That’s my job. I take care of that perfectly fine. Good luck. I got Intel info you are you don’t even have access too.
Victoria Volk 1:03:07
So, what would you say? All of these lessons in grief? Because really, it’s a lot of grief and your stories threaded through them all? What have they taught you the most?
Staci Bartley 1:03:21
The thing that comes to mind is an experience a gift that my mom gave me as a really young girl. So, if I may, I’m gonna answer your question by just sharing this one last thought was the day after my dad’s funeral. And my brothers and sister and I were sitting around in our living room, wondering what happens next. Right? funerals over everybody’s gone home. The dishes have been washed. And it was just this quiet, eerie moment after the funeral where we were all sitting together wondering if Christmas was gonna happen or vacations. birthdays, I mean, how does life go on for a parent, we need to know. When we were in the throes of this conversation. My mom was to hurt us in her bedroom, which is right next door living. We have this big, beautiful window and this bright orange carpet. That was kind of a thing back in the 70s. And she came out of her bedroom, walked into the living room, and I’ll never forget her opening up the curtains on that big, beautiful window. And she said, I’ve heard what you’re saying. I reassure you, the sun will shine in this house, whether it is shining outside or not. She will go on and we live, and we will find happiness again. And I remember that just seems so comforting. Like Okay, I guess you just go again. I guess you just pick up and find the sunshine, the sunshine, whatever little bright spot you can claim to in the moment to just put one foot in front of the other and go again. And I think I think that’s what I’d like to leave with is it’s about that, right? Just like it’s difficult for us to show up in our really ships and say, well, we need to say sometimes it’s difficult for us to show up for ourselves. But if we just have a teeny tiny bit of courage to just get up and try again, the rest of it will ironically take care of itself. Right? The sun will shine. Yes, there will be storms and thunderstorms and cloudy days, we think, gosh, well, this time of year shine again, remember, it always does, we can just hang in there long enough, right. And I find it much easier for myself to move to keep going right to learn to grow, to have conversations to connect to just stay in motion. That for me has created the momentum that I’ve needed in order to just keep putting that one foot in front of the other so that I can find that ray of sunshine again. It doesn’t have to be shining outside in order to shine.
Victoria Volk 1:05:55
That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else? I mean, there’s so many questions I would have loved to have gotten to I think we’ll just have to do this again.
Staci Bartley 1:06:07
Yeah, let’s come back and do it again. I want your listeners to know that they are hackable human beings. They’re beautiful, they’re brilliant. It’s nothing wrong. Just that your staff, your hearts been broken. And our hearts are so resilient. It’s our minds that won’t allow us to go on our emotional bodies, they can heal from anything they are selling. They’re strong, they’re courageous, they have the capacity and the know how to heal. It’s our minds that say oh, that’s not possible. Can’t go there can’t do that. That’s not gonna happen. Don’t let your mind convince you. What your heart already knows to be true. You got this you can do the best you can overcome anything and when I say anything, I mean anything. Because you’re a human being as being a human being. You are amazing. You are bold, amazing and so capable of so much more than you think you are. So go for it. Get up and go again. And I’m sure you’re going to be surprised at what you learn to discover by yourself. Just as we all are when we’re going through hell right you look back and go I really am kind of grateful for that experience. Wouldn’t want to admit I wouldn’t want to do it again but I wouldn’t want to miss it. And by the way I got pregnant three times out of wedlock like three times it took me three rounds to learn this lesson. Right after that, you are enough you can do enough you can be enough and it’s not about getting a perfect it’s about getting up and going again and loving with all your heart is primarily yourself. yourself first.
Victoria Volk 1:08:04
Perfectly said it needs nothing else added. Thank you so much.
Staci Bartley 1:08:10
My pleasure.
Victoria Volk 1:08:11
Where can people reach you or find you, they’d like to connect with you?
Staci Bartley 1:08:17
Yeah, there’s several places were all over social media. But I think if you enjoyed this conversation you want to learn more. The best place for you to go would be to look my podcast up the air on kk and w 1150. Every Thursday at 1pm PST. And I’m on all the way anywhere you find your podcast, you can look and search for Love Shack live. It’s a place where we come back, and we talk about the realities of relationships. We talk about the conversations that really impact our lives when it comes to love. And also, you can go to my website at stacibartley.com and Stacy’s only thing I got a style right stacibartley.com, love shack live, you can Google my name on our website.
Victoria Volk 1:09:02
And you’ll find those resources also in the show notes. Thank you again, Stacy.
Staci Bartley 1:09:10
My pleasure.
Victoria Volk 1:09:11
And remember when you unleash your life, you unleash your heart. Much love.
