Ep 56 | Dr. Michelle St. Jean

Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast | 0 comments

Michelle St Jane | Widows Don’t Sleep: Walking the Path of Cumulative Loss

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Michelle St Jane is no stranger to grief, like many guests who have shared their stories.

The traumatic experience of finding her grandfather deceased when she was 15 and the subsequent “Don’t talk, don’t tell” approach to grief laid the foundation for her in how she addressed her grief. She would later better understand the impact that her family of origin had on her life.

Michelle left her family of origin at age 17 to travel and later found herself in love, married, and with children. However, her life would be flipped upside down when, at the age of 27, she found herself a widow unexpectedly with a 9-month-old and 5 and 6-year-old in tow.

Years later, she would experience the loss of another love suddenly in a tragic accident. Additionally, she lost the opportunity to visit and say her goodbyes when a dear friend died during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Grief is cumulative, and it is cumulatively negative. Michelle shares how she’s managed to get where she is now, what helped her most along the way, and the ultimate gift grief and loss have given her.

RESOURCES:

• Martha Hickman Book

CONNECT WITH MICHELLE:

• LinkedIn
• Facebook
• Podcast | Life & Leadership: A Conscious Journey 

Victoria Volk  00:02
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Although if this is your first time, thank you for being here. Today, my guest is Dr. Michelle St. Jane. She is the host of the podcast Life and Leadership, a conscious journey for global leadership in reemerging leadership. Thank you for being here, Michelle.

Michelle St Jane  00:25
Oh, I so appreciate you, Victoria. And I’m really grateful for this topic. It’s so important.

Victoria Volk  00:30
Grief is my jam. I hate to say it like that. But it is it’s been my best friend for many, many years. And I thought, you know, I might as well make it my passion and work in this life. So thank you for gracing your presence to my listeners and for sharing your story today. And let’s start there, what brings you to grieving voices?

Michelle St Jane  00:53
Well, actually, I think I come from a place where I feel very guided. And Ellie visa once advised, whoever survives the test, whatever it may be, must tell the story, that’s his or her journey, her duty. And for me, life is a conscious journey. And I’ve had, I’ve had to survive more than once losing close loved ones, in different circumstances, you know, once was finding my grandfather did once was my husband died when I was 27. And once was a boyfriend who was killed in a road traffic exit, all in different decades, over 30 years. Just really tough things to endure. And through the grieving, there were these gifts that came about.

Victoria Volk  01:41
So let’s start at 15 when you found your grandfather, how did that impact you? And what was the aftermath of that? Like? Was there communication around what happened in it discussion?

Michelle St Jane  01:57
Well, my grandfather is my first close experience. When my grandmother had died, it was all hush hush and children weren’t included. Unlike other wisdom traditions, like for example, I was born in New Zealand. So the Maori have a tradition where everyone is involved, there are certain things that you do to respect your your deceased loved one and how you go through a process. But for me, this woke at that time. In the 70s. That did not happen. It was all just very hashtagged. We didn’t know we were not involved. It was there was no recognition of any impact on what might have happened. I wasn’t particularly close to my grandmother. But there was a huge sudden gap there. In contrast with my grandfather, who actually died probably about 10, or 12 years later, we were very close. He was my hero, my my protector. And I was very blessed with that. In the in the year leading up to his death, my mother and him had had a fight. And in a bed, they asked him for it, which is nothing unusual, but they had a quite a bad one. And I remember in the weeks leading up to his death, and particularly the last three days, I knew something was wrong. And I was very concerned that we’d had no contact. And I was, you know, absolutely belligerent, we need to go check on him, we need to go check on him. And eventually we went and checked on him and he had passed away. So again, I was 15 children weren’t really included in anything, there was all the family dramatics is there are some times and consequently, I actually it was his funeral, he was cremated, and I had such a traumatic reaction to to his service being held at the crematorium. And then hen going through to, you know, left the room on this, how they do, depending where you are. And I had such a very, very, very bad reaction, but there was no room to have any emotions, because there was the family drama and all sorts of going on. And my reaction was just considered bad behavior. You know, so I had all my angst and eventual anger, and then this trauma, and nobody was talking to each other, you know, you know, we just, you know, don’t talk, don’t tell. And I found that very upset, upsetting. So the learning I got from that was, my family could not be there for me. They had enough going on of their own, which is often the case. But I learned that sometimes when you’re in a situation like that, you either can be your own worst enemy, or your own best friend. I chose the latter being so young and there weren’t the services and support around anger certainly translated into a fury that fueled me to do many things I may not have done and Of course, it was years later, I have a lot of time to work on therapy, in trying to deconstruct some of those roadblocks that can come out of these situations.

Victoria Volk  05:09
I love how you said that, that you can be your own worst enemy or your own best friend. And you kind of learn, like you said, how to respond by the people who are around you like what, what is what’s appropriate, or what is acceptable, or, and like you said, you learn quickly, I can’t rely on my family to be there to support me in the way that I need. And so how did that impact you? When you found like, when you experienced when your husband passed?

Michelle St Jane  05:45
Well, with regards to my family, I ended up breaking away, which ended up being a much bigger guest because I could have been subsumed by that environment where people were doing the best that they could, which was not going to be very good for me. So the outcome of that one was, basically I had my passport and got on a plane when I was about 17, and started traveling. So I took what is commonly called today, the geographical transfer option. Just what I didn’t realize was, there you go, you take yourself. So as I said, many years later, I took the path down some therapy to help me deal with that. So with regards to my husband, he died when I was 27. And we were coming up on 10 years marriage. Oh, gosh, that is that that experience taught me that walking, the last mile is really important. And how you go about doing that give the support that you need to do this. Again, I was back in New Zealand around my family of origin. And my mother had actually lost my stepfather virtually virtually a year to the same month. So we were both widowed within a year of each other. So as you can imagine doing the best that she could, she had huge issues around grief and coping. And in the skills and how to do this, there were challenges. So the gift that I got from my husband passing unexpectedly was was he left me with today really is the present And therein lies the gift. So living in the now and today and appreciating those who are around us is really, really important. The other part of the experience, which I found so difficult and still do, to be very honest, was that and I’m going to quote Martha Whitmore. Hickman has been a huge inspiration. She has a book called healing after loss daily meditations for working through grief. And I didn’t get that book for many more couple of decades later, but she has a quote, nothing could stop you not the best day, not the quiet, not the ocean rocking. You went on with your dying. My husband had an aneurysm, how can his lungs and he ended up being brain dead, but he was a very fit person. So consequently, he was in a coma after coming off life support for over 36 hours. So this is what I mean by walking that last mile. Staying present in the now with the time that we had left. And also walking with my head held high. And my young children, I have three young children, nine months old, five and six years old, is really important. It’s it’s lifted blueprint for them that they may or may not never, ever use. But the hard thing for me as a young woman was, there was nothing that could stop him dying. He was branded. And I had all these mixed feelings around how long after he came off last life support that he remained with us. So I was also wrestling with, I just want you to be at peace. I just want to figure out how I get on with life now, but I don’t want you to go but you’re already gone. But I still hear your heart beating like very, very, very difficult. So that quote was by Martha Whitmore, Heckman, nothing could stop him he was going to go that didn’t matter if it was the best day, the quiet day. The ocean continuing to come and go he went on with his you know dying. And that was really, really a struggle for me. The other thing that happened was this was the month of October. And as I mentioned, I was in New Zealand at the time. And it was Halloween. So I remember going with my brother in law to get a black tie. He was a bad Piper and he was going to pipe at his funeral and we walked into a store and this young man came up The salesperson, and he was so delighted and he was really working on his salesman magic. And when my brother in law said he needed a black tie, he slipped into Halloween mode. So I’m sitting there like, I’m going through this awful transition of my, my husband being gone, the father of my children, my best friend, my lover and my whole life, and I’m gonna have to figure out how to go. And this young man is dancing with delight, because it’s Halloween and someone wants to reflect. So, you know, another quote from mother Whitmore Heckman that somehow we feel the earth should stop spinning and acknowledge our grief. And I’m standing in that store in this sort of no woman’s land pancake. Ah, I want to say something to you. But I don’t want to say something to you. Yeah. Not easy. Not easy. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  10:57
I got chills when you when you say shared that first quote, and the conflicting feelings that you must have felt. And so what were those days? I mean, express like this. It’s almost like you’re, you’re an alien in your own life. And you know, from how you described it, it’s like you You don’t even know how to be. So how did you manage with three young children? On top of it? How did you manage that?

Michelle St Jane  11:31
That is such an insightful question. Well, I thought, I’m a widow, so I’m going to go to a widows support group. They told me to go away, I was too young to be a widow. So I was again like society was handing me these lovely backhanded slacks off slide. Well, you guys had this experience, I don’t quite know what to do with myself. And, you know, you know, had to walk through talking with my children that funeral. And I had so many mixed feelings. So I did manage to go and see a psychiatrist. Like I was desperate for help. So I spoke to my husband’s doctor and said, I feel like I’m going crazy. So he says, I’ll book you in with the psychiatrists. So of course there were these feelings of Oh, do I need one of those? And what happens if I go there? Or my step for life or bla bla bla, what are the judgments gonna be? Well, the psychiatrist only saw me once we chatted about my husband and she said to me, you’re going to be okay. She said you have sat here and shared your favorite memories, your deepest grief and you have cried so many tears that you’ve not stopped smiling. He has left you with so much precious precious material, you’re going to be okay. And the other very valuable advice she gave me for my children because you know, a five year old and a six year old immediately look at you and go well what if you die? And how do you answer that tomorrow is not promised? So she said to me the psychiatrists in New Zealand she said to me, if you’re okay, your kids will be okay. So do what if you do take care of you being Okay, and then you can still be okay, you don’t have to do anything more than that. And you certainly don’t need to see me again. I didn’t resolve finding another group group for grief work but I got about the business of raising my family and figuring out how do you do life when you’ve lost such a key person who’s so central to your well being and your Yeah, your balance?

Victoria Volk  13:41
So following her advice, did you find that to be true?

Michelle St Jane  13:46
as best as you can? Let’s face it sometimes it will Well, it nobody comes with a handbook so kids will probably be in therapy. But I’ve always done the best that I can I come from the position of I can only lead by example. And there is one other diff I’d like to share with you were actually two one was I I decided to date many years later and I met this lovely chap and we had eight weeks together and he was killed on in a highway accident so you think by now i’d be feeling like oh my gosh, you know these this is scary these close close people in my life. But for me that that df that I again, I got to walk the last mile with his sons and be present for them when almost almost like Groundhog Day, his family all around work coping particularly well and there was a lot of drama. So for me, and I’ll quote Martha Whitmore, when again. So maybe the experience of loss not only helps us clarify what is important to us, but also helps us know where we are and the direction we want to go in. So I knew I had a moment in time I had only been around this man for eight weeks, in the previous week before he had introduced me to his sons by surprise, because I was not agreeable to that, as a parent myself, I did not want to be involved in someone’s family life, particularly with children, unless it was going to be a long term relationship. And eight weeks is way too early for that. And at the funeral, I found out that he was going to propose, but again, it was way too early for all of that. But he was so happy. And at the week, people kept saying, I don’t know what you did, but it’s the happiest thing I’ve ever seen him. And they thought it was down to me. So I also was carrying this sort of guilt because I had been cross at him for introducing me to his boys by surprise, and we’d spent the weekend together. A few days before he died, they were supposed to have been with their mother. So I had to wrestle with some feelings. But to go back to Martha Whitmore head men’s coat, it clarified what was important to me that I was asked by the family to stay for his funeral. So I just, I just decided to be the steadying presence so that I could be not part of the drama. And also in the direction that I wanted to go that I needed to step gracefully back out, because I was not going to be part of the circle. And then, and they didn’t need me to, they had plenty of family, but at least in the final goodbyes, I could make a contribution as a presence and pay my respects without being involved in all of the drama, which is not my oke anyway.

Victoria Volk  16:41
Well in the gift in that, too, is that they thought of you. It he thought of you. He obviously shared his feelings for you, with his family and loved ones and people that mattered. And so the gift for you too, was that, because what that I mean, I imagine that would have been a very different experience for you to have they’ve been like, Oh, you barely knew the guy, like, What do you want? What are you doing here? You know, and so it was very much a gift for you to that he gave you. Without you really realizing it at the time.

Michelle St Jane  17:11
I’d also add just a little addendum to that story. When I got back to the city where I lived, he had since the day we met, we lived in two cities that was there only 90 minutes apart. But you know, that was how it was at that early stage. He had written me a letter every day, on his way to work every morning, he would stop and mail me a letter. What I did not expect was to get back after the funeral. A few days later, and there had been a letter, you know, I had a couple of leaders that I came back to. So he got his final goodbyes, and in a beautiful way of reminding me how loved I was and how I had really contributed to his life. So it’s sometimes there are just surprises and gifts that come that you just you can’t see them coming, you know, and that was something that he did no, you know, I will forever be grateful. Because, you know, it triggered a lot of the past losses as well. And yeah, encouraged me to go back and do some counseling and work my way through it.

Victoria Volk  18:19
And I want to get to that, but I just want to share too how we don’t really understand often the impact that we have on others.

Michelle St Jane  18:32
Yeah, I would like to just share one last loss which has happened during the pandemic and quarantine last year. My best friend, her name is the toil. And she was very close to 100 years old and we’ve been friends for the last nigh on 20 years. And I had been overseas and when I got back I got back in time for the quarantine to kick in and I was unable to go and visit her because she had moved to an assisted living and assisted living complex and they had blocked that and I lost her without being able to connect with her before that happened. So again, if you don’t if you’ll forgive me, but Martha Wetmore Heckman always has the right words. She writes, it’s a bittersweet joy the way our last loves are forever and our hearts and minds, in fact, constant to our consciousness in a way they couldn’t be when they were alive because then we depended on the comings and goings, the highs and lows of being with us, the vagaries of presence and convenience. And again, that is another difficult I know people have lost people during pandemic and and you know, a lot of hardship. The President really is the gift. Therein lies the gift for people who are around us and there is a process of healing that comes after lost. Often we’re too busy with our lives to realize that this is so, so important too.

Victoria Volk  20:02
and with all of your losses. And I know I share this frequently on the podcast, but if it’s your first time hearing this, I, you know, I have to share it again and again. But grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so all of these losses that you just shared, they stack on each other. And it’s like with every loss, you’re adding another rock to a backpack that you, you know, that we that we that you carry. And so what has healing looked like for you? And how has it changed over the years? I know you’ve you said the psychiatrists, and that was your first experience. And then you mentioned therapy again. But how has that changed over the years? And what does it look like now?

Michelle St Jane  20:44
Thank you for asking. Well, my first two losses were I tried to go join a widow group that didn’t go down too well, because I was way too young. And then I went to a psychiatrist and she said, you’re in the wrong place key proofing. And that gave me the confidence to just get about doing what I needed to do. And then over the years, I’ve done counseling and group work, I’ve found them very helpful. With my grandfather, there was a lot of rage with my losing my husband, again, there was anger and despair. And there are many stages of grief that you need to go through and can go back and repeat. Finally aren’t my husband after he’d been dead about 2025 years I kind of beat up on myself and was like, why is it every October that the three the three days where he went into a coma and we buried him? I literally would go into the doldrums. I couldn’t function I didn’t I couldn’t perform I couldn’t think clearly I felt like I had the flu yet so for like 2025 years, maybe close to 30 years this kept happening and a friend of mine turned around and said Oh get over it get over it, you know announced Why? So I went again into the helping services and found a cat therapists catatonic app therapy, I’m probably not got the right name. But I what I did was I got through her guidance, I got a large canvas and on the front of the canvas, I took lots of photos that I had photocopied, I photocopied lots of all the photos that I could find for my, for the people I’d lost. And on the front of the canvas, I did this beautiful memorial of, you know, the fun things, we’d done the heavy pictures. On the back of it. I aligned it in black lace, and I put all my angry thoughts and everything else. So when it hung on the wall, you could see for my children and family, you could see the good things that I remembered. But on the back, I put all those other theat feelings and that actually, for me that art therapy was enough to move me out of revisiting, like a catatonic event that three days that my husband had died in back in the mid 80s. And that was 25 years later. So my friend gave me a gift of sort of harsh, harsh shove, where I went and found somebody else. Fortunately, I was able to say thank you for your thoughts. I can understand that you feel that way. But I am having a physical, mental, emotional spiritual reaction every year or regardless of journaling and doing all the other things. out of bed alphabet therapy. I was introduced to Martha Whitmore Hitman’s book, daily meditations for working through grief. And the reason that’s been so instrumental is because it means rather than me holding it all together until that October event, it means every day I did a short reading. started my day ended my day, some part of my day, I read one of her meditations, I got a chance to check in, feel some feelings and move on. And I think what my therapist had rightly identified was I just held it together very rigidly until I got to that October and then I just fell over for three days. So of course, I wasn’t too crazy about doing that every day. But I did I did it for probably about 10 years. And then I gifted my book forward. So you know, I know it’s there. I know it’s a way that I can come back to if I have to endure another event like that. I will again look for the gifts and find the right support.

Victoria Volk  24:40
So much in that that you just shared. Thank you for sharing. I want to circle back to mentioned two things, the women’s support group and you being too young for the listeners out there. That’s hogwash, first of all, and shame on the women who said that to you that you were too young. I think that is one of the hurtful and harmful things that we don’t understand or even, like, really, we don’t know, what do we say sometimes, but like you said, it turned out to be a gift for you because it sent you on your path to something better that you need.

Michelle St Jane  25:16
And I might have been revisiting, revisiting with people who were stuck. Also, just to add to that funny story on the end of that was after my husband died, I went and bought a rinky dink old piano from a secondhand store. I play really badly. And because I’ve even told my grandfather’s piano, and attitude piano sounds perfect to me. And I didn’t know better at the time. So Michelle’s secret thoughts embarrassed here. And I another thing that I learned was some when you when you, when you lose a partner like that you don’t sleep. So I started playing this piano, my kids would go to bed, I couldn’t sleep. So I would start playing this piano. It was October and my favorite thing to do was to play Christmas music. And I reiterate, I play really badly. And on an attitude piano. Well, it turned out a couple of doors down on either side of my cottage, were two widows. So although this grief group had sent me on my way, these two women came and introduced themselves and said, Are you okay? And I said, Why? They say you’re playing the piano all night? And I’m like, why are you up? And they’re like, oh, we’re widows. widows don’t sleep. And I went, ah, is that what the problem is? And they’re looking at me? And they’re like, What do you mean? I’m like, my husband just died. And they’re like, oh, keep playing? You’ll get better. We hope the could you tune the piano? Sometimes you find your grief group, or they find you.

Victoria Volk  26:50
That’s a beautiful illustration of that. And did you become close with these women?

Michelle St Jane  26:57
Only for I was only there for about three or four months. And then I because that was my family of origin city, I actually moved back to his family, in another country with my young children, because I knew I wasn’t going to make it with the family dynamics and support that I had New Zealand. So I moved back to where my husband was from with the children, which was actually a very good decision, because we got back in time for Christmas. And Christmas was not going to be celebrated by me. But with such a huge extended family, you know, the kids could be enjoying normality. And I could I have extra support to cope with, you know, loss. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  27:35
And that is the big thing I want people to hear too. And this is that you looked for support.

Michelle St Jane  27:41
Basically, sometimes the long view is not what you need. What you need in this moment without a hostage to the past, or the future, is to experience it for itself alone. So I could not do that with my family. There was too much drama, too many secrets too many. They weren’t coping, my stepfather died only a year before my mother needed room to grieve and her support system.

Victoria Volk  28:05
And sometimes our best support system is not from our family.

Michelle St Jane  28:09
Yes.

Victoria Volk  28:10
And because because we all bring our own experiences and our own perceptions and our own stuff, right. And so if they’re not, oftentimes, in grief recovery, we talk about that person for you being a person that’s a heart with yours. And often they’re not someone that has any skin in our game, which is often family, right? So I do want to ask, if you don’t mind, was that family dynamic with your family dynamic? Was that ever repaired?

Michelle St Jane  28:41
No. And I have to accept the things I cannot change which has my family of origin, they’re doing the best they can with what they have. And it’s not the right place for me to be so I have done my best to to be a part but I’m actually better staying out of it, which could be what their gift was to me, you go rather than being a part of this dysfunction. So for me, I’ve done the best that I could at this stage. I’m very focused on generations that are coming behind me and continuing to upgrade my best self. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  29:20
I like how you said that upgrade your best self. And there’s, you know, I don’t know who said it, but there’s this quote that, you know, the, the five people that you surround yourself with is a reflection of kind of where you’re at in your life. That’s not exactly how it goes. But in order to rise above and let the cream rise to the top of who we are and what our potential is. We do need to surround ourselves with people who will lift us up, and that will support us.

Michelle St Jane  29:50
Absolutely. In fact, it’s interesting you should say that quote, because at the turn of the decade, that was the one I was focusing on Who am I surrounding myself with also My buzzword is you can go through it, you can grow through it. But for me at the end of it, I want to be glowing. Let me move from surviving to thriving.

Victoria Volk  30:10
Oh, I can’t believe you just said that. Because I’ve been saying that on my last few podcasts I have been. It is it’s about going from surviving to thriving, like, you don’t have to be stuck in this prison of the past. And that’s what it is. That’s what happens. Our past is our present, and it is our future until we address it. And so what would you say to people who feel like, I don’t need to go there, I don’t need to dig it up. I don’t need to address it that’s in the past. It’s done. It’s over with, what do you say to that?

Michelle St Jane  30:42
Each person knows what is right for them. And for me, I always respect that thoughts and feelings of visitors, I welcome them, I listen to what they have to say. And I get them to move on, rather than to keep me trapped in the dialogue of repetitive storytelling. So if you do not feel that you need extra support, then maybe you don’t. But if you find yourself saying the same stories over and over again, and every time people see you, you go back to regurgitating the same stories, I suggest you interrupt the stories and get some help.

Victoria Volk  31:20
Well, and that just brings me to my point and that we heal and community. We can’t heal alone. It’s really difficult. Some people might argue that, maybe you can. But you might have another loss. So you might think you’re okay, here’s the caveat of that you think you’re okay, you think you’re holding it together, you think you’re doing all right, until you have another loss. And everything comes back up to the surface again, and you realize, hmm, I’m not okay. But the thing is, is often grief manifests in our bodies and in our lives. And so I want to circle back to to that experience you are having every October, it’s this, the body knows the bodies, I was speaking to us, you had this, this emotional incompleteness that was stuck within your body. And so every October, it was your body, it’s this muscle memory, it’s this body memory. And until we address that, we exhibit behaviors and symptoms in our, like our bodies are talking to us. So if we think of ourselves like a tea kettle, we either implode or we explode, right? So either we resort to, you know, we might have multiple relationships in a short period of time, or gambling or shopping or stuff our feelings with food, or not eating, to have the sense of control in our lives when we feel out of control in our hearts. Or we might be losing our hair, or having like overall body aches and unexplained migraines and all these physical symptoms that we don’t pinpoint to the root, and get to the root and understand that grief. That’s how grief is impacting us. We don’t connect those dots. I didn’t. I didn’t for many years. And so, what were like the physical, how was grief manifesting in your life.

Michelle St Jane  33:19
As I shared with my husband, every, every October, I had three days where I couldn’t function. And, you know, this was when I was at the height of my career, it really became apparent to me, I couldn’t distract myself, I booked the time off, I’d get a spar I’d stay home and hide under the covers. I’d go see accounts, which is how I got to the art therapy. With my grandfather, I just field forward, I needed to get out of this family and go live my life and be the best example of who I could be. With my boyfriend who was killed in the highway accident. That was a little harder because I was blessed that a couple of my girlfriends had come up and gone through the funeral with me. So I wasn’t on my own. Because he did have an ex wife who decided to play the widows. So I was caught in this soap opera of drama. And her two little boys were constantly gravitating to me and I’m like I don’t want to be causing any harm here. That was a little harder. What was more, what also complicated things was the fact that his his accident on the highway, made it on the news. So consequently, the day he died, I was because I was visiting him when the day he died. I was asked to come to a family dinner with and the news was on and I turned around immediately to see the accident, the aftermath of the smashed car hearing. You know and then the family also wanted to go and do a viewing which I didn’t want to do and I ended up being sort of caught in the slipstream of having to go to a viewing and seeing him after he had died. That those two things caused another whole big trigger for me that I couldn’t deal with at that time. It wasn’t the right place. So again, I got counseling to help me work through some of that. But for a while, every time I went on that stretch of highway, I would get chills, I would start to shake for a long time. And in fact, I was in New Zealand for the last five years, and every time I went down that highway, so again, you don’t always know how these things are going to play out, or how long this might take. That’s why I really liked one of Hitman’s quotes about being your own best friend. Because, you know, it’s best if we’re not held hostage to the past, right? for the future. Yeah, yeah. With my friend, he toil who died last year. I mean, that’s on top of trying to deal with a pandemic, or quarantine, geographical transfer. Then I decided to change careers into podcasting. But I could hear her on my shoulders, saying, Oh, you are having so much fun girlfriend, go figure out how to do this, this is where you need to be. So I had those blessings. But I also needed to deal with, I hadn’t managed to see her before she died, not that I expected her to die. Respecting the rules of you know, her residence and things like that. carrying those guilts with me, do not, do not contribute to our future that she would like to celebrate me having.

Victoria Volk  36:38
So how do you celebrate her?

Michelle St Jane  36:41
I talk about her. This is why I gave that first quote. Not only do we have a duty to share the stories, but also to share what people bought to our lives. And I have grandchildren and I speak of their grandfather. And it’s so surprising that my youngest son, who was nine months old, when he died, has two young sons for around three and five. And he is exactly like his dad, he treasures his family, he values his children, his work doesn’t subsume him to the expense of his family. As far as as feasible and the work that he does, so and he looks exactly like his father, he sounds like it’s five or so. You just never know where the gifts are gonna turn up. Right? And you know, I try to share the stories with my grandchildren about their grandfather and things like that, too.

Victoria Volk  37:35
So when your kids were young, when this happened, I just want to ask this because I it just kind of came to my mind right now, when your children would bring up their father as they were growing up, you know, because I and I asked this because I actually heard this one time where a young child had lost her grandfather. And it was the mother’s father and she asked the child to not bring up the grandfather, because it made her sad when she did and I thought my heart just broke when I heard that because here’s this child that just wants to express her loss and share you know, just when’s grandpa coming back or you know, the the under she wants to understand and the mother is just shooting her down and again don’t take this as parents are doing bad and you’re badly or whatever it we do with what we do what we know. Right? And we don’t know what we don’t know. And so it is we’re doing the best that we can in any given situation. And that’s why I’m so passionate about the education piece of of grief so that people can break that cycle because she’s learning in that process. Don’t talk about talk about my your grief, don’t talk about your sadness because it makes mommy sad. So how did you navigate that aspect?

Michelle St Jane  39:06
My husband was such a huge force in our lives. He was huge. He only worked the hours that the children were in school. He was a very big piece. So, sharing the stories keeping it alive, having a having a chapel with their grandmother, his mother and his brothers was very important. And if the children border that well we talked about it I always every Christmas and every birthday I pulled out a birthday book that we had started when our oldest son was born so that came out and he was present and all of those were I did fail was I just couldn’t do Christmas I bought pulled out the Christmas book. But because he died very close to my birthday and Christmas. Those two celebrations got very damp down for me. I didn’t do well with those. Yeah, families with the don’t toy Don’t tell the secrets. As I said, my mother had been fighting with my grandfather. We were not to discuss that. It just built up and a lot of anger inside of me. Yeah, what I didn’t do well was birthdays and Christmases for me. What I did do well was we had birthday and Christmas box of photos. When my kids got much, much older, I did do a decopatch of lots of photos across the years that that involved him as well. So, once they all went 21, I just did a big canvass of photos that included their father. Yeah, my youngest son, he has said, I didn’t know my dad, so I don’t want to talk about him. So, I talked to my grandson, so I can respect that. But I’m not if my grandsons do something that reminds me of their grandfather. I’d be like, oh, let me tell you this story about when, and then I tell some funny stuff, because he was huge. But what I will tell you, which I don’t always navigate particularly well, but actually no, I dodge is even though my husband’s been heads past, well, over 30 years ago, there are still people who will come up to me and ask, how’s Bobby? You know, what’s he up to? And I actually dodged by saying, He’s resting very comfortably. Thank you. Because after 30 years of that, I’m just so over trying to explain that he died decades ago. That’s really tough. Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Volk  41:30
Wow, well, thank you for sharing all of that. What gives you the most joy nowadays?

Michelle St Jane  41:36
Well, I, I certainly took to heart when my husband died, that today is the present. And therein lies the gift. I work. I consciously Try not to take people for granted. And I also consciously address when I start isolating, because isolation for me is evidence of my disease. So, I have to be very aware of that. And of course, with the pandemic and the quarantines and things like that, I can go into cave mode and just you know, be a little philosopher in my own, okay. So, I have to work on things like that,

Victoria Volk  42:11
I can relate to that. Yeah, kind of get in your own head, then. And that’s when we kind of have the committee in her head, and we’re having conversations with the committee in our head instead of giving it out, you know, and whether that’s, you know, for some people, I’m a writer, so that’s how I channel a lot of that. But, you know, sometimes you just need a heart with yours. You know, someone that you can just unleash your heart to, I mean, and that encapsulates a lot like, that’s what grief has taught you. It’s probably also a piece of advice that you would give to right, like, just take a moment to reflect on today.

Michelle St Jane  42:54
Absolutely. I mean, with my grandfather, and my boyfriend suddenly gone with my husband, and my very, very wise, older friend. They’re not prompt tomorrows not promised.

Victoria Volk  43:10
So what is one tip that you would give a hurting heart today?

Michelle St Jane  43:15
I am a mother, she has a book called healing after loss, daily meditations for working through grief. That book has been worth its weight in gold, I did not realize that I was, you know, putting everything in a box for you know, 11 and a half plus months. So having that with other daily reading books was a huge help. That would be my number one tip. What I didn’t get right was there were very long periods where I just shut down and did everything that I had to do and didn’t address the grief. I like to sit it’s cumulative.

Victoria Volk  43:58
Is there anything else you would like to share?

Michelle St Jane  44:01
I would like to celebrate your presence in the world, this is such an important conversation. And it’s not easy to find people to have this with their books, but just having the chance to have community to speak into your listeners ears and share from the heart around this. This some extremely important topic, and I really appreciate you, thank you for your contribution in the world, Victoria.

Victoria Volk  44:29
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it’s definitely been become really meaningful. Side passion for me for sure. Because we often don’t feel like we have an opportunity to share from a space that we where we won’t be judged criticized or analyzed, where our story won’t be judged, criticized, or analyzed. And so, it is my hope that through Stories like yours, and all the people that bless my podcast and our guests that people take away a sense of hope that you can go from surviving to thriving. I almost think that that needs to be one of my taglines because I’m passionate about that. It doesn’t have to take 30 years for you to wake up to what’s possible, really. It’s never too soon, and it’s never too late.

Michelle St Jane  45:31
Absolutely. And the gifts are in the learning. They’re not promised in the first 30 days, the first year or the first 30 years, they may come. And I think you’re around same music should be the song I played on the piano for many long nights called whispering hope.

Victoria Volk  45:47
I’m going to have to check out that song. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for your presence. Thank you for sharing your stories. Grief goes on, it’s like, and here’s another thing I want to, I would just want to have a little bit of back and forth about is that the sadness doesn’t go away, right? Like, you’re not never going to be sad, that that person isn’t in your life, that your husband isn’t in your life that the lover you had after him isn’t in your life that your friend, your grandfather, like that sadness that we experience and feel that never goes away. I don’t care how enlightened or woke, I mean, that’s kind of a buzzword now, or how much healing you’ve done. I feel like I’ve, I’ve come leaps and bounds from where I was in my 20s. But the seat is always empty. And that sadness is always there. But it’s recovery. From my aspect of it as a grief recovery specialist. Recovery isn’t about forgetting or condoning or letting go. Really, it’s actually got the tattoo on my wrist, let go and let God like, I just wanted to let it go and give it to God. And that wasn’t working, I got a tattoo and it’s like, that didn’t work. I didn’t take action, like there’s action, it’s pray and move your feet. It’s not just pray, it’s pray and move your feet. You know, I don’t care. You know, whatever your religious beliefs are, it doesn’t matter. It’s action. And that’s what helps us get out of that sorrow. That deep sorrow that’s preventing you from moving forward.

Michelle St Jane  47:45
Absolutely. You’ve got to make the path by walking. Nobody can tell you how it can be done. It’s an experience. And your words remind me that the desert doesn’t flow without the rain. So, you can go through it, grow through it. And quite frankly, study mean to glow. You know, get back into the joy of life, a life well lived is the perfect reward for you know, acknowledging those who’ve gone before and you’ve grown on their shoulders, but also, you don’t give up on life yourself.

Victoria Volk  48:14
Yeah, and like another guest had said she felt like she was living a half life. And that’s no, that’s not a life, right? So, thank you so much for sharing. I’ll give you the final word. Anything else you want to share?

Michelle St Jane  48:30
Change the things you can. And that’s yourself, not anyone else. Change things you can, make the path by walking.

Victoria Volk  48:39
I love that. And where can people find you if they’d like to connect with you?

Michelle St Jane  48:43
LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. Do you do show notes? Perhaps they can just be added into the show notes.

Victoria Volk  48:50
I do show notes. But where’s your favorite place to be? Where can people find you the most?

Michelle St Jane  48:55
The most would be LinkedIn. And that is under my name, Michelle St. Jean. And yep, this website wtih the podcasts on it. So, I’m looking forward to gifting you next.

Victoria Volk  49:06
Sounds awesome. And I will put all of the links in the show notes, including the reference to that book and anything else that she has shared for contacting her in the podcast as well. And I look forward to being on your podcast again. That podcast is Life and Leadership, a conscious journey. And so yeah, thank you for listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 55 | Larry Indiviglia

Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast | 0 comments

Larry Indiviglia | Choice and Chance

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Grief makes grievers feel like they don’t have choices. And, it can also be difficult to bring yourself to take a chance on something or someone. In this episode, I explore choice and chance with Larry.

Larry shares his stories of loss, focusing on a short-term love that touched his heart and life deeply, leaving a lasting impact. He shares the wisdom that came from that love experience with Gayle in his book, 126 Days, 11 Minutes: Our Love Story .

“I wrote this story as a tribute to Gayle’s extraordinary courage and embrace of life.  I encourage all of the Gayles and Larrys out there who may be afraid to love to reconsider.  Life is meant to be lived and loved in the now, not in the yesterdays or tomorrows.”
 
Also through this episode, he shares other lessons he’s taken from his other losses, which include a tragic car accident that killed his aunt and older sister, leaving him as the sole survivor when he was 21.

We all can feel hope for the future, knowing that every one of us has been given the gift of the ability to choose. After listening to today’s episode, reflect on the choices you’ve made that made the most impact. Perhaps there are even defining moments that changed the trajectory of your life, too?

RESOURCES/CONNECT:

• 126 Days, 11 Minutes: Our Love Story
• LinkedIn
• Email: [email protected]

Victoria Volk  00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Larry Indiviglia. He is a retired Naval Reserve Officer. He holds a master’s in corporate fitness administration and an MBA from the University of San Diego. Currently Larry is president of and sites for life Incorporated, a fitness professional presenter and author as well as a business and life coach for the Todd Durkin mastermind program. He also is the author of the book, 126 days, 11 minutes, our love story, to honor the life of Gail in their love they had for each other. And that’s what he is on to speak about today. Welcome, Larry.

Larry Indiviglia  00:44
Victoria, a pleasure to be here. And thanks for all the great things you’re doing with your programming. And I’m really excited to have a great conversation today and provide some value to your many listeners. So really looking forward to connecting you.

Victoria Volk  01:01
Thank you. So, let’s dive in. So yeah, what brings you to grieving voices.

Larry Indiviglia  01:10
Over a year ago, I met a woman, her name was Gail. She basically changed my life. And I had a relationship with her. And she transitioned four months after I met her, I know I’m throwing a lot of things out, but because of her, that’s why we’re here today. Because of her life, the powerful choices she she made and the relationship I had with her. It provided an inspiration to write about the four-month relationship I had with Gail to talk about the transition process. And it also to get me through the grieving process. The writing was kind of a catharsis, but mostly to be here today to honor a live that certainly richly deserved honoring and that really has helped me continue to move forward. And I’m still probably in a grieving period in a sense because it hasn’t even been a year yet. And that’s really what is the story behind the reason that I’m on here talking with you today.

Victoria Volk  02:17
So, tell us about Gale.

Larry Indiviglia  02:21
Gale, you know the the backstory to 126 days 11 minutes our love story is to actively aging seniors who meet online in their 60s. Yes, and their 60s. Okay, I was 64, Gail was 68, Gail had been married three times before Gail had been single. for over five and a half years I had been divorced and single for almost nine years. And maybe against all odds Victoria and for everyone listening, we were captivated by each other. And I say against a loss because she had stage four breast cancer and had been fighting it for four plus years. However, you know, we both Gail and I made the choice to live in the today. Not in the yesterday’s or the tomorrow’s and that’s how our relationship was was built. And in so doing, we discovered a lot about each other. Gail was a professional photographer for 33 years. She did nature she did animals she did. She did models, she did dance, she was an Argentine Tango dancer, she was a ballet dancer, she lived a very rich life, colorful life. She was very artistic. She’s also very mystic. she happened to be a Virgo Earth maiden. And she had a great connection with nature. Sometimes you will say art imitates life or life imitates art, she would always say nature is life. And she had a very strong connection to nature. But like many, you know, like Al Victoria is she was to it that she was diagnosed in October of 2015 with stage four breast cancer, you know whether it’s out of nowhere or whatever it is, but she got the diagnosis. And then that changed her life. She had to survive, she had to find out how to battle cancer. And she chose a lot of different ways to do that. She’s it’s traditional chemotherapy, she had a single message to me. She had radiation, a lot of treatments and then she also went into alternative methods to to keep her immune system very high. So perhaps the cancer wouldn’t spread. And so she was very active. She was a very soft, artistic, very intuitive woman. She was also steely, strong, she was determined, determined to beat her cancer, and continue to live she felt her earthly existence. was something she was not over with yet. Hale had a higher, not a nontraditional sense of who God was higher level of consciousness view. So, she felt life in the womb, life on Earth, and then a higher level of consciousness once you transition, but she wasn’t quite ready to leave Earth yet. And there was so many great things about Gail, the biggest thing, she made a very powerful choice to continue to love and live live, even with cancer, and that’s really the reason I met her. Sometimes you think about choice and chance in life, Victoria, is something by chance, was it a chance meeting online? Well, Gail and I both made the choice to go online to find love again. And and fortunately for me, I was able to connect with her. And even with some of her challenges, it didn’t matter. I was so captivated by her courage, her truth or honesty, that there was something more I had to discover about this woman and, and I did in the 126 days and 11 minutes that I knew her.

Victoria Volk  06:11
Sounds like a very fascinating woman. So, I gather that she taught you to live in the present and to love unconditionally no matter what. Is that a correct?

Larry Indiviglia  06:24
Unconditional love was was a is a word that comes up when you think about it. And Gail gave it a bigger context for me. So, we think of unconditional love, no judgments, no expectations, no conditions by which you love somebody. And Gail said to me, it was early on in the relationship, Victoria, that when I talked about it in the book, is, you know, Larry, you can’t unconditionally love somebody. If you don’t unconditionally love yourself. First powerful statement, and I do believe it. You know, through my life’s journey, I had done personal work, after my divorce, there’s a lot of things I spent time doing personal work, so that I could accept and respect myself as I was, you know, because sometimes a failed marriage, things don’t work out in life, you can really kind of beat yourself up about it. So I did some personal work, and I did accept myself and I did unconditionally love myself. And I do feel that was a big part of the reason I was really able to unconditionally love Gail as well. And one other thing too, in the unconditional love is I was diagnosed with stage one colorectal cancer. Ironically, the same month Gail was diagnosed in 2015. I did not fortunately have to go through what she went through. Not at all, I had one surgery. But the point is, I understood what a diagnosis means when you get that diagnosis, whatever stage and somebody tells you, you have cancer, okay, and then you so I had empathy enabled to relate to her on that level. But Gail was also truth. She always stood in her truth and her convictions, she never compromised those even all the way to the end to her transition. She felt if you compromised your truth of what you were about, you’re compromising your life. And that was always a bright light that she shed. You know, during her lifetime here on Earth, everything she touched everything she said, and everything she did, was about being truthful to herself and to other people. So that that was something truth, honesty, unconditional love was part of what she was about, and what our relationship was about.

Victoria Volk  08:51
One thing that sticks out to my mind and what you just share it as and thank you for sharing. First of all, the one thing that came to my mind was that first of all, we can’t give to others what we can’t give to ourselves, right? And also, it’s so important that we live in integrity with ourselves. And when we don’t live in integrity with ourselves, our beliefs, or our convictions or what we need or, you know, our desires in life. I think that I mean, that’s grief, we experienced grief as a result. And that trickles into every area of our life, or employment or relationships with our children or our spouse, other people, how we relate to others. How we show up in the world, really. So, it seems to me that I mean because I totally get and understand why you two would have been drawn to each other you to her because if you had done that personal development work, I think we kind of draw them to us, what we need in the right time.

Larry Indiviglia  10:00
Yeah, you do. You know, its interesting being being a life coach and business coach for fitness professionals for about 13 years now, Victoria, you hit on something very important. Maybe it gets back to choice. I had mentioned Gail made a powerful choice to seek love again, even though she had the cancer and a single mastectomy and things in her particular physical arena weren’t like they used to be she was an absolutely beautiful woman. Cancer had taken some of that off. I mean, she had been through a lot. But I think when it comes down to integrity is, you know, when you look at each year, and my coaching work, we’d like to theme a year, what’s your theme for the new year? Is it happiness? Or is it discipline, whatever it happens to be. And my theme, and my, maybe it’s in my subconscious. When I met Gail, it wasn’t conscious, I will say this, looking back on it. My theme for 2020 and I met Gail on January 2020. So, a little over a year ago, was do something significant. Okay, that can mean a lot of things that was giving me a wide berth, okay, do something significant in 2020. If somebody said, Larry, your significant do or action would be to meet somebody who’s battling stage four cancer, in this case, a woman to love her have a relationship with her, she would transition four months later, and then you would write a book about the experience, I would have said, I don’t think so. However, now I have time, I’ve had some time Victorian, and it didn’t dawn on me till about november of December, at the end of 2020. When I look back on my notes for what the year was about, and for all of us with COVID, it was a crazy year, I look back at my theme. And you know what? This was significant. Okay, and I didn’t do it consciously. You’re to your point, when you put something in, and it gets into your subconscious, you attract someone or some thing that that will, perhaps make that intention come true. The universe brings you together. And I believe that, and I believe gal on her side, said, I am a woman, I am not waiting, I have been battling this cancer. I am who I am, I can find somebody I can love again, I am not going to stop trying. I’m doing it. And she attracted somebody, it turned out to be her last stage of life, we did not know that. I don’t think she knew that. I think she felt she was still going to beat it. However, the universe brings you together. And it comes down to choice and intentional. And again, standing in your integrity to I think is all part of that.

Victoria Volk  13:13
Can you speak a little bit to because when you you talk about transitioning, and I think especially in our society that’s kind of has this death aversion? You don’t think about or talk about death as a transition, especially, well and more so with terminal illness, but can you speak to that a little bit more? Like what she wanted that to be? And what, you know, the tension that she put into that?

Larry Indiviglia  13:43
yes, I will. And there’s a couple of things. And it’s a very insightful question, Victoria, because I do think it is important to your listeners to all of us. It doesn’t have to be cancer, it could be another type of disease, or it could be you’re, you’re forced into a transition stage of your life for something that’s uncontrollable, but the fact is, you’re facing it. So, what does one do? Gail had more time to think about it. Once her cancer came back it metastasized to her brain. And advanced breast cancer can do that it goes to the bones, the lung, and a lot of times the brain in any case, um, she did not want to die in excruciating pain. I don’t think any of us do. Okay. And she was looking for a place once we had to take her back into the hospital, there was no more she could they could do for her. There was no more operations. There was no more chemo, there was no more radiation. Okay. So, then you have to decide where are you going to transition some people will use the word die. I mean, look, Gail use transition. So, she had to find a place that was going to work for her so she had a chemo port, where you would put in the chemo drugs in her chest, they open vein. And she wanted to be able to get palliative really pain medication. Okay, in the port. That’s not done everywhere. That’s not done in a home setting, by the way, it can be. But a lot of hospices situations at home, they don’t inject into that port, they’ll give you through the mouth or whatever. And with COVID, there was a lot of potential maybe limitations as to what the care would be in a residential home. Gail felt she would be better if possible to be in an inpatient hospice. I talked about it in the book, how that all came about, okay, and she was adamant that that’s what she needed. And fortunately, we were able to get her into a four bed hospice home, here in San Diego, run by sharp hospice homes Foundation, Parkview hospice outstanding place. And so she didn’t die and transition in physical pain. However, during the time, they gave her two weeks to live after the final diagnosis, Gail lived an additional 44 days in hospice. And she had to find peace before she felt she could transition to a higher level of consciousness and finding peace, mental peace, emotional peace, you could be physically cared for. And she was. And I remember I asked her one day, maybe it was day 12 or 13 of her stay. And I did visit her every day through through the COVID. Fortunately, I didn’t get sick. Um, and she and I said, Gail, you know, how can I help you find peace or provide you peace? And she says, Larry, Larry, you can’t, I have to do that on my own. And because the COVID spiritual counselors couldn’t come in, and she didn’t want to talk to him on the phone. So, she was trying to find her peace through those 44 days before she transitioned finally. And, and I believe that the care she was given, I did what I could do, and I share that in the book I share every day in the book during that transition period, Victoria 126 days, 11 minutes, 126 days, there was nine weeks of joy, and fun and frolic before her cancer came back then there’s 63 days where it wasn’t good, it was deeper. But during those days, I do share things I did bringing in music into her room, she had a garden view, things that she was still able to touch real life until she couldn’t see any more talk anymore because of the brain cancer. But it was a process for her. She had tears she did not want to transition yet she did. But at some point, she went through, and she found peace. Day 114 I shared in the book, very, very close friend of mine told me Larry, find your own peace about the situation first. So then when you go and visit gal, you will be peaceful, that will help her find her peace more readily. And that was an interesting comment. And it was a comment by a guy Colonel Hank Donegan, who had been a 30-year Marine, he saw a lot of a lot of depth over his career. And he said you have to find your own peace in the midst of adversity and chaos, or in this case, Gale dying. So those are some of the things I could speak to about transitioning and, and I do believe, if you’re not in gruesome, horrible physical pain, you might be able to process that on deeper levels.

Victoria Volk  18:59
Have you seen the Netflix docu series, surviving death?

Larry Indiviglia  19:05
No, I have not.

Victoria Volk  19:06
There is an episode, it’s a six-part series, but there is an episode on end-of-life experiences. And it’s based on the research of Dr. Chris Kerr from Buffalo hospice and I recently interviewed him on my podcast and he talked about these end of life experiences and he has a book called Death is but a dream which is coming out with another he’s coming out with that’s actually going to be out another docu series but by that name in April, but I’m I’m just curious if she ever spoke to you about any end of life experiences any visions or dreams that she was having of, you know, loved ones that maybe were coming to her?

Larry Indiviglia  19:57
A great question. She did not, her elderly mother was able to visit her. Although she couldn’t visit her too often because of COVID. Her younger brother was able to visit her. Not too often because of COVID. You know, there was some restrictions, but they did get a chance to, to visit her. She did have a younger brother who died tragically at age 15. And her dad had already passed away So, but she didn’t answer your question directly. She didn’t. She didn’t share with me any end of life and like, hey, I could picture this in my life. Now she did. She did talk to me, before hospice, about dreams she had, who were in the dreams, sometimes former lovers, she was dancing she had, she had contributed gave me poems which I share a few of them in the book. So, they was just processed when she was living. She was experiencing a lot of things. She also had a medical intuitive Victoria, who she would consult with about her care programs, and her overall well being and things. And she was also very, into astrology. And she had a mystical side to her. So, but in hospice to answer the question directly here, in context, she didn’t share that she was seeing something, although she talked to me, Hey, this is my get married again. for the fourth time to you, this is what I think it’ll look like and where it’ll be. She would ask me questions, but she hadn’t gone to the other side yet. And she wasn’t giving me any coming attractions. sounds horrible there. But you know what I’m saying about what she was saying. She She would being an Argentine Tango dancer, she often talked about a dream where she would be dancing with somebody but couldn’t see his face. It was a faceless dancer. And would that face with that? After her transition? Would that person, man become a face? I don’t know. But she would say that a lot of times.

Victoria Volk  22:23
I just, I was, it’s my own curiosity. Since I yeah,

Larry Indiviglia  22:27
Valid question. You know, and she could have been having those dreams? In fairness. What let’s just back up one, because I think it’s a great question. You know, Gail, I think it was about 12 days, she couldn’t talk because the cancer of the brain after a while you lose your ability to speak. And then her sight went. So, if she did, if she was dreaming, let’s say those last 10 days, she couldn’t tell me. She couldn’t tell me. So perhaps and I don’t know that I’ll have to read this book here and also educate myself a little bit, if that’s what happens sometimes with people is if she had that she couldn’t share it been taught.

Victoria Volk  23:10
Yeah, but actually, to your point, when you said about dreams prior. People can have dreams up to six months before and visions and things, so you know, everybody’s different. But it’s like, the way you described during you said the word metaphysical. And that’s really what came to my mind when you were first describing her as someone like that, who would probably be very open to the messages that would be coming to her. As she’s, as her body is slowly starting to depart, you know, so

Larry Indiviglia  23:43
yeah, she had her looked at in the process at some point, maybe after about a week, she was crying a lot because I think the reality was, she knew where she was, you know, this was her last stop here on earth. And that’s an overwhelm, you know, you have overwhelming feelings at times. And, and, you know, so she did shed tears in that process. Some days, more than others. I speak about him in the book and context. I felt what I shared in the book each day has a theme, the highlight, or the meaning of that day, which was most meaningful, that was most appropriate in context of what Gail was going through. So yeah.

Victoria Volk  24:41
Can you share a little bit too about the experience because it was during 2020 and was during COVID. What impact did that have on? I mean, you kind of spoke to it a little bit about her care and things but I mean, were you able to have a celebration of life?

Larry Indiviglia  25:01
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting January, I remember the weekend specifically I shared in the book, we went to a resort here in San Diego. And when we were having breakfast, this was, I think, like March 1, the very end of February. I’d met Gail in January. So, this was the end of February, I had known her for about eight weeks. And we noticed a couple, two different couples walking on the street with masks on. And Gail looked at me, she goes, what is this? What is this about? I said, oh, that virus having you heard this COVID virus, and supposedly, it spread, you know, through through coughing and sneezing and things. And I said, a mask could help prevent that. Because boy, we’re vibing I just, I haven’t really dialed into that, Larry. But I remember that there was March 1, of course, two and a half weeks later. So, two weeks later, we shut down, that’s when the whole country shut down. So, January and February, we lived as normal as we possibly could, you know, going out doing things and, and etc. And then when Gail got sick again, and the cancer started coming back, it took about 10 days before we realize the whole process and got her back into the hospital, then COVID was very restrictive, because of visitation, what you had to do to get in there. And that was in the regular hospital. And then also in hospice. I was I was actually lucky because if she was in a nursing home or something, whatever a larger facility, they were shut down, they weren’t letting anybody. So, I had to go through, take my temperature, disinfectant, the whole thing. And you know, and the interesting thing about it, the spiritual counselors were not able to be on site, it was only a four-bed hospice. When Gail was there, her joining roommates if I can say roommates, or fellow people who had transitioning per six weeks day, or 44 days day, there’s probably about 30 people who transitioned because, you know, everybody’s in different stage of at the end. And, but COVID, I had to just go to her room, I couldn’t go to the common area, I couldn’t talk any other family members. Um, so it was like you had to be present in the room. So COVID I’m not saying if COVID wasn’t there, I would have been out in the living room, not in Gail’s room trying to connect with her. But when I was there, Victoria, I was there, I had to be in her room other than using the restroom. That was it, that’s the only place you can be. So COVID um, there was limits on on visitation, there was limits on calling people coming down. And, you know, Gail started, she couldn’t hear. So, there was a lot of things in that room, where was just myself and Gail, and COVID. Her family members I mentioned earlier, couldn’t visit her as much because of some of the restrictions. And her mother was very older and, and you know, so it got to the point where COVID actually helped me be present with gal, and maybe to notice things and do things. And I submit perhaps I wouldn’t have done because I had to be there. I had to be present with her. And then Okay, she’s transitioning. So, what are the important things to do? So anyway, in the COVID picture, I think that also was the reason Gail chose to try to get into that inpatient hospice because she didn’t want to die at my place. And she didn’t want to die at her mother’s home. And that was the reason that I don’t want to say we ended up but that we chose and were able to get accepted to that hospice home. So COVID really had, you know, those types of impacts pro and con, I should say.

Victoria Volk  29:13
So, you have yet to have the celebration of life like you haven’t gotten to do that?

Larry Indiviglia  29:17
Celebration of life happened in November. So, she wanted a very small one. She gave me a list of only about a dozen people. And I honored that and her. She was cremated and her ashes were spread on a nature trail here in San Diego, and one of her professional colleagues who she knew through her photography business for many years. She wanted part of her ashes spread on a beach in Malibu Malibu where she did so many photo shoots. So, he did that. I gave him some of the assets, so he did that. And then we had celebration of life. And everybody got a pile of ashes. And here in San Diego, one of her favorite spots. So that was her wishes. We did it in november november 1. Actually, we did it on do de los Muertos, as it turns out, is that spiritual day of that the Mexican culture celebrates the people who’ve passed and already died, the souls who have risen, so to speak. So, we did do that. And it I waited a little bit longer because the COVID risen, and to get that, to get that that kind of completed, that was something that had to be done. So, I honored her wishes.

Victoria Volk  30:44
Well, and what a blessing that you became in her life. Because, you know, had you not taken and made that choice right to go online dating and had you not met her, you know, her mother wouldn’t have been able to help her and be there for her in a way that she probably would have wanted to. And way Gail would have wanted her to be because of her older age and COVID. And, you know.

Larry Indiviglia  31:12
Yeah, Victoria, you make a nice point here. There’s nothing heroic I did, what I did was, I had some empathy. And I learned more from Gail about life and love that I think she learned from me. But her life made a difference. And all of us want to be able to transition. I don’t know if I want to say on my own terms, but with some dignity and with some control. And I felt I was able to help her do that. Okay. And she was able to go on, at least to terms that she had control over. And, you know, she had told me stories. When I sat down with her, I had a great conversation on the phone with her, she was very honest. She said, Larry, here’s the deal, I have stage four cancer, I have a single mastectomy. If any of this stuff is gonna freak you out. I’m just telling you now. And I was so kept, I was so captivated by her honesty, I definitely wanted to meet her. So, we met the next night. You know, when I met her, she had told me, she said, you know, Larry, a couple dates I’ve been on, you know, some guys have gotten up and said, you know, this isn’t for me, and, you know, with $50 on the table, and I’ll see you. And that’s probably the extreme. But I, society now easier to get up and leave? Well, there’s not anything in this for me. I wasn’t looking for this, in this dating relationship. However, it’s riskier not to risk. Because the life experiences that you miss out on can be profound. And I did not miss this one, Victoria, because it’s like, what’s life about experiences that we have and want to have, some are controllable, some are not. Those experiences encourage us and sometimes make us grow. And because of that growth, we can then contribute more to others. So, I look at my relationship with Gail. It was a loving, profound experience, mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. It forced me to grow as a man in a lot of ways. And then now and it’s not just because of a book, but because of the experience and the growth I had, I was able to write something and realize that there were profound lessons here from this beautiful woman. And I believe so profound that I would like to share those with others, so that the gales and Larry’s out there, Victoria afraid to love because of somebody struggling. It doesn’t have to be cancer. It doesn’t have to be life and death. You may want to take that chance. Because you can experience Mutt a profound love experience that you would never have before I had somebody reach out to me. She was dating for three months. She came down with stage four lymphoma. Her boyfriend at the time visited her in the hospital. And she said you’re off the hook. You don’t have to go through me with this. Don’t you know we’ve only known each other three months? Well, he doubled down he asked her to merrier while she was enough, and they’re still married today. So, some of these things in life. If you go against the conventional societal norms, you may find something real special that you never would have experienced before.

Victoria Volk  35:04
I just got chill bumps because I absolutely agree. One single yes can change the trajectory of our entire lives. Right?

Larry Indiviglia  35:12
Yeah, you know, Victoria I, I don’t normally get too emotional on these things. But, you know, Gail’s life made a difference. And I saw the courage when I sat down with her that dinner. And you know, she had kind of like puffy eyes from some chemo. And it but she didn’t try to hide anything. You know, it was who she was. And, and, you know, I, you know, of course, you know, sometimes the male ego takes over, I sat down there at that dinner, and I shared in the book, I remember she looked at me, she goes, Oh, God, you’re so much more handsome than the pictures online. You know, it’s funny, but it was sincere. You know, I think it was, but but it was I was very, very, there was just, I was captivated. That’s the best word and really wanted to discover more about her. And, and, you know, the reason we’re sitting here today talking about her is is because the courage she showed and, and like I said, I think there’s a lot of gals out there that have to have second thoughts about putting themselves out there again, as difficult as it can be. It’s never too late to fall in love. And, you know, I believe that there’s somebody out there for all of us, right? That’s right.

Victoria Volk  36:35
I have the belief to that really challenging times, brings out the compassion within ourselves, but also helps us kind of disarm that as false. Basically, we don’t have to lie. Like you don’t have to. No one likes to be lied to first of all, but to just be honest, and tell the truth about how you’re feeling. I think that that becomes easier when you’re faced with something like Gail did, or, you know, like the terminal because she had had it and then it came back, correct? Like she thought it was gone.

Larry Indiviglia  37:10
Yeah, it was, they had it at big. They had her cancer at bay, you know, she had been through the real rough part of it, where she had to get the discectomy and it moved to her lungs. chemo, was able to get most of it out. But then it moved to her neck, and then she had to have neck surgery. And then after neck surgery, she had a good time without it, but then it moved her her brain initially. So, she had radiation for the brain. And that went into remission. So, she, you know, she was always trying to keep ahead of the game as it moved within her body. But at some point, they were able to arrest it. And also, to her credit, she was on a very strict nutrition plan, a totally clean, a very strong supplementation plan, exercise, plenty of sleep, Ph water. I mean, she did everything and research so many things. And she felt if she can get a holistic healer to work in conjunction a little bit closer with a traditional met what messed up Western medical physician that she thought she could beat it, but it was so hard to find there’s a lot of dead ends because of insurance and things. But yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Victoria Volk  38:29
So, you spoke a lot about shared different ways that you know what Gail taught you and what that experience taught you. But also, to that wasn’t your first grief experience. You mentioned divorce and had you had any grieving experiences prior to that?

Larry Indiviglia  38:48
I did. And you know, maybe one loss or the previous losses prepare you in life for the next now. I don’t want to be maudlin here or pessimistic or fatalistic where, hey, something traumatic happens. And that means it’s going to be a series of them throughout your life. If any of us haven’t experienced any loss through trauma, accident, death, cancer, whatever it is awesome. Okay. Many of us have though, okay. And I think most of us have on some level, specifically with cancer, too. You know, at a very young age, very young. I was driving a car I was 21 years old. In fact, it was the day after I graduated the Naval Academy. I was taking my older sister who was 28 at the time, I was 21. And my aunt, my father’s sister to the airport. We didn’t make it. They died. I didn’t. Okay, so at 21 years old, that’s that’s a big loss. Okay. And that one, you know, I had to do some personal work. ralphing there’s some things I had to process through the years about that. And, and get through that, so that you can move forward in your life, especially at 21. I was so young, but I did get through it. And that was 44 years ago, okay. And my faith, I happen to be Christian, I have faith that Okay, that was part of life’s plan. And that’s it, and you just have to be able to move forward. So, I found that that loss was a big one. And sadly, years later, not to put a list of losses here, my brother took his own life when he was 53 years old. And that was a big loss that was that was, that was a heavy burden, when when Joe took his own life, and each law I find, will give you the opportunity to respond and perhaps do something you would not have done. And you might not even think about it. It might give you the courage to move forward, do things in a different way, go to graduate school, get married, do some travel, do some philanthropy, whatever the case may be it it and my journey, it has provided me the array and because of the loss of the circumstances around it, to do something I would not have done would I have written 126 is 11 minutes as a fictional story. Probably not Victoria, probably not. Although somebody may read it. And it’s got elements of a novel in it, but everything in it is true. So, to your point, losses in life, do make you stronger, do give you an experience with the grief experience, and all of them are different. And I find that on my journey, responding and doing something that you perhaps would not have done can be a result. And I will say a positive result is it to honor a death situation can be or it could be giving back to a community that maybe you became aware of, because you came down with a disease or whatever it happens to be that you now want to get back to, but that’s some of my thoughts on that.

Victoria Volk  42:45
Did the loss of Gail bring up any unresolved feelings of grief that you may have needed to address?

Larry Indiviglia  42:55
It was different. I don’t know if it brought up any past wounds, so to speak. But I will say this, the losses you have and then I hadn’t lost a soul mate or a lover, etc before. So, it was a different kind of loss. Then maybe the human the human nature and us, at least for me, it’s like oh boy, you know, it’s not like death follows me. That’s not it. But if you do go to the to the place, and you say, well, she was such a marvelous woman, I would have really liked to spend more time with her. And now, I don’t have that opportunity anymore. So that sadness is there. It almost becomes and in talking about it now, it almost becomes a little surreal sometimes. Victoria, when I look back on it and say, did this really happen? You know, but it hasn’t really brought back to a great extent at all. Any, any past losses to any type of that’s causing any, any pain or anything like that.

Victoria Volk  44:12
I want to, I’m curious, because did anyone say anything to you that was hurtful? Regarding, you know, it was a four-months relationship?

Larry Indiviglia  44:26
yeah.

Victoria Volk  44:27
You know, because people can be insensitive and say things that was only four-months, imagine 40 years or you know, things like that, because that does happen.

Larry Indiviglia  44:37
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  44:38
Did anyone say anything to you? Just and I asked this because I think it’s important that people understand how these things impact people and like how words in cut like a knife.

Larry Indiviglia  44:50
Oh, yeah.

Victoria Volk  44:51
So, I’m curious if anyone said anything like that was hurtful or harmful in that way?

Larry Indiviglia  44:56
No, I did have a question. Would you have done it over again. Um, if you knew how it ended, I said, well, that’s really an unfair question because, you know, we lived into today I, I didn’t know how it was going to end. You know, did did I think I was going to outlive Gail? Probably, okay? But every case is different. We don’t know. You know, I mean, odds odds would say Gail was not going to live to 80 or 85. But, you know, one never knows. And I didn’t look at it that way. Nobody has ever said, you know, what, why did you write this book? Or, you know, you only knew her for four months. And, you know, because sometimes there’s so many beautiful stories out there Victorian, I know, you see them of people’s life journeys. And now that they’re grieving, loss of a child, loss of a husband, whatever it happens to be, you know, certainly I am not the only one. And, you know, the the people typically, who have left and transitioned, those are the people that are the inspiration, not necessarily me, there’s nothing heroic about this. Was this significant? Yeah, as I shared earlier, I think it was significant. But But I haven’t, I’ve been lucky, I’ve had the people who reached out to me, during the time, I was going through this were supportive. And people afterwards that, especially after I was working on the book, and released the book, were very supportive for them, for the most part, and I hadn’t experienced any. I had one comment, I think it might have been in in once the book came out, you know, I’ve lost three immediate family members, and why should I read your book or, you know, words to that effect, but that person’s grieving? You know, it’s like, I get it, you know, and, and it’s not, it’s certainly not a comparison game here. And boy, hopefully, but I could see some people who were in depth, you would probably know better than I know could react why. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  47:13
Yeah. And that’s one of the things we talked about in grief recovery is that there’s no hierarchy hierarchy of loss. I want to kind of circle back to that question, would you do it over again, because it’s really kind of a sad, sad thing to ask, if you really think about it, like, what is this? You know, you got to think about what that person’s feeling like inside to ask that because it’s like, you can ask that about anything. Like, you don’t know how long you’re going to be married to somebody. It’s like, I don’t even know the statistic currently. But you know, for a long time, it was 50% of marriage ends in divorce. Well, would you do it over again? I mean, how many people? Yeah, you know, it’s like, would you have children? If you knew one of them was going to die? Well, of course, you would still have that. You know what I mean? So, I think yeah, I think it’s a very sad question. Ask somebody. I’m sad for that person who asked you that, put it that way. Just to circle back to what you shared about the opportunities that we miss out on. That’s what I think back to I that person asking that questions.

Larry Indiviglia  48:24
I think connections in life, they’re not, none are random, I don’t believe in they’re just random. They’re all for a purpose, some last longer. Some lasts a very long time. Others don’t last as long. And but they’re all for a reason. They’re all for a purpose. And I think certainly, we all want to live to live a vibrant, long life, you know, with a high quality of life. That doesn’t always happen as we know; we don’t live in a perfect world. And certainly, all of us are imperfect. And sometimes we’re Dell tans that we never expected we would be down. But the period of time that I spent with Gail was the time that I was supposed to be and I firmly you know, believe that. What like I said it what I had hoped it would be longer than that. Certainly, yeah. But it was there for a reason and and I think we came into each other’s lives for a very powerful reason at the stage. I was in in the state shoot. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  49:40
So, throughout your experience and even the grief that came before it, what has given you the most joy What gives you the most joy and hope for the future?

Larry Indiviglia  49:54
Well, life is beautiful. And each day that we have is is certainly a gift and you hear that many circles, but it is. And to be able to have a continued choice on how we decide to live our life. That’s what’s really great. Because we could make that choice to meet to meet somebody, again online, we can make that choice to do philanthropic work, we can make a choice to shift careers, we can make a choice to, to retire, and not do anything if we chose to do that. The ability to choose is what I think, really, is really awesome in life. And the other thing is, is a very powerful lyric, it’s in the dedication page to the book, Gale used to sing to me from the song natureboy, which was sung by Nat King Cole, I think it was in the 50s, maybe early 60s. He didn’t write it, but Nat King Cole sung it, and the one lyric from natureboy was the greatest thing you’ll ever learn, is just to love and be loved, in return. And when you think about that, very simple lyric, but really powerful. And all of us have the ability to love. But we also have the ability to receive. And you know, you have to have both Victoria, right, and we have the ability to do both, we have the ability to give, and we have the ability to receive, and to those of us, I would say a lot of your listeners, I don’t know them are giving people, you’re a giving person. It’s easy to give gifts all the time, that’s super important. But we must pause and receive back because people want to give to us. So the ability in moving forward. And in the future. What I’m hopeful and joyful about is that very lyric right there. That’s the essence of life. Because I do lead, I do believe it leads to fulfillment. And it does make life a lot more joyful. When you experience both giving and receiving love. And I did that with Gail.

Victoria Volk  52:33
I love that. We do have two hands, right? One to give and one to receive.

Larry Indiviglia  52:38
We absolutely do.

Victoria Volk  52:40
I have to read this to you because I just I wrote this down prior to us recording. Oh, sure. It was just coincidental. So, I’m going to share it. Speak, think, and act from a place of love. This is a rule of life. There’s nothing you need to fear. I actually, I wrote, it will speak, think and act from a place of love. And then I added a rule that’s a rule for life. There’s nothing you need to fear.

Larry Indiviglia  53:08
Love could come in different forms, different at different junctures of your life when you expect it, or at least expect that. However, I’ll go back to choice. One of the lines I share on the very last last page of the book, actually, you know, each book I mentioned is titled all 126 days, and the last day is titled 11 minutes. There’s a reason for that. But in the lines to that last page, Gail says is life is life by choice or by chance. You think about it, the choices we do make, maybe they’re related, the choices you do make. give you a chance to experience something you would never have. I think Gail and I both did that we both made choices to love again. We both made choices to stay together. And that gave us a chance to experience something neither was would have had alone. Yeah, that that choice. And that chance when you think about life is an interesting relationship.

Victoria Volk  54:21
And I think that’s a perfect place to tie this up. Anything else you would like to share?

Larry Indiviglia  54:28
Um, if I could, you know, just tell people where to get the book, 126 days and 11 minutes, Our love story is available on amazon books in Kindle or paperback form. It’s a fast read. It’s gotten a lot of very nice five-star reviews. I’m very humbled by them all. So, the audio book will be available on Amazon’s audible channel.

Victoria Volk  54:53
And if people want to connect with you, where can they find you?

Larry Indiviglia  54:57
Yeah, email me directly. I’ll answer all of them. At [email protected] so that’s l i n d i v i g l I [email protected]. You could find me on LinkedIn at Larry Indiviglia. And you could find me on Facebook at Larry Indiviglia as well.

Victoria Volk  55:19
And I’ll put that information in the show notes.

Larry Indiviglia  55:22
Thank you, Victoria.

Victoria Volk  55:26
Thank you so much for being here. And for sharing your story and wisdom from your beloved Gail, and everything that you had to share.

Larry Indiviglia  55:36
Thank you, Victoria. Really enjoyed it. And I hope your listeners received something of value this morning. I think they did.

Victoria Volk  55:47
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love