Child Loss, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pet Loss |
Sherrie Dunlevy | Infant Son Death & Pet Loss: A Story of Refusing to Lay & Decay
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
As a former news anchor, Sherrie Dunlevy delivered bad news on a daily basis.
However, it was the news of a personal matter that would shatter her heart. Sherrie knew she would be delivering her son who would be born with complications and quickly swept away for medical care immediately after being delivered via caesarian. She and her husband would then spend the next 29 days holding their son until he passed away.
The years that followed led her on a path of trying to understand why people abandon those who are grieving. And, set the wheels in motion of a journey that would lead her to write a book and doing everything she could for herself to not live the rest of her life as nothing more than a grieving mother.
Wanting more for her life, she’s found a way to live fully into who she was called to be, and even after the death of her beloved pet during the pandemic, learned the power of addressing and feeling the grief when it comes.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH SHERRIE:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Sherry dunlavy. And she is the author of How can I help and founder of graduating grief and host of the graduating grief podcast. Thank you so much for being here.
Sherrie Dunlevy 00:18
Victoria, it’s my pleasure.
Victoria Volk 00:21
And today is a very special day as we are recording because what brings you to grieving voices is the loss of your son.
Sherrie Dunlevy 00:30
Yes, today would have been my son Brandon’s 22nd birthday.
Victoria Volk 00:35
So this is a very special full circle podcast moment.
Sherrie Dunlevy 00:40
Yes, absolutely. Kind of surreal.
Victoria Volk 00:44
I’ve had my own full circle moments lately to tomorrow is 34 years. My dad is gone.
Sherrie Dunlevy 00:52
Oh, my.
Victoria Volk 00:54
Yeah, yeah, no. Is it tomorrow? What is the date today?
Sherrie Dunlevy 00:56
29th
Victoria Volk 00:58
31st on wednesday, actually. So thank you for being here and sharing your story about Brandon. And so let’s start there.
Sherrie Dunlevy 01:10
Okay. Well, 22 years ago, my husband and I were headed to a hospital to give birth to our second son, Brandon. At 18 weeks into the pregnancy, when we went for our first ultrasound, we that’s when we realized that there were complications. So it was a very bitter sweet. No, it wasn’t a bittersweet day, it was a very scary day, because I knew that as long as he was inside of me, he was safe. But all bets were off beginning today. And I’m just really emotional today, I guess. Because I don’t want to have happy memories of this time, we knew there were complications, we knew they were going to whisk him away, I knew I was never going to get to hear him cry, I was never going to get to hold him, they whisked him away to another Children’s Hospital. I mean, I had nine, nine doctors, you know, in the delivery room with me, and I had to have a C section. And so, you know, I knew all this going into it. And so you know, you just all bets were off. And, and my son lived 29 days. So it was just very, I don’t have those happy memories that most moms have going into labor, I didn’t even get to hold my child that day, you know, I got to hold my child as he was dying. So I think that’s that’s what makes this birth, these birth days a little bit more different than if you’ve had someone and you’ve been able to love them longer than what we have, or you’ve had the experience of welcoming them into the world. So I don’t really have a lot of fond memories. So I don’t look back a lot. But these anniversary days, kind of you have you do look back, I glanced back. It’s too painful to stay back there. And there’s no reason to because it doesn’t serve any purpose other than extending suffering. You know, I live now in this moment. And so it’s just very challenging to process all of this. I mean, my son’s life and death has has had such an amazing impact on my life and transformation that has come from it has been absolutely amazing. But I really don’t give myself the time or the pause to look back except for these few days, one in March and one in April when he was born and when he died, that I allow myself to go there. That makes sense.
Victoria Volk 03:59
No, it absolutely does. And I think that’s an aspect of grief that even I have forgotten or maybe didn’t give much thought to, in that. You can have a loss that where you don’t have those fun memories at all. Right? And in a way that’s a lot of those fond memories are what kind of bring you peace or can bring you peace. Right? Right. So I’m warm, I’m holding you in a hug today. Thank you. And I know we talked just very briefly before we started recording that you plan to really take today to 10 your heart and give yourself the time and space to do so and it’s very important. And
Sherrie Dunlevy 04:55
It is but you know I mean like I was saying I’m gonna give myself some time. It’s some time, I have a feeling that subconsciously I over schedule myself on these days. And I just wonder if that’s a way to like say you don’t have to think about this if you don’t want to, or that you don’t have the time to think about this. I mean, like I did, I actually added to my schedule this morning, like, and then I’m thinking, what are you doing? And then I’m thinking you knew exactly, I know exactly what you’re doing. So that’s when I decided I really cannot add anything else, I really need some time, some space to just process this a little today and spend some time with it. Not a lot of time, not a lot of time to dwell, but just process the feelings that I’m feeling, you know, allow those to come, they’re legitimate.
Victoria Volk 05:52
And then let them pass. Right? Yeah, instead of stuffing them down with work or other means that we do and the body. The body knows, I was just talking with someone not that long ago, and even 20. Some years later, it’s like, around this time every year, yep. And all these years later, you know, you find yourself, you know, maybe getting rundown, or, you know, what shows up differently for everyone. But I think it’s a, it’s that to have that awareness, though. And to maybe even plan for it. Vance, there was one woman who shared how she had this, it’s like a daily book, just kind of really just to give a little hope and insight and about grief, but it was it can’t remember the title of it. But she said that’s in its 365 days, you know, a phrase or a saying every day, and she said that’s really, really helped her in her. She was a widow, right young children. But she said that was really helpful for her, but she found herself having to plan, you know, for that time of year. And so, what, especially when those in those early days, what were some of the things that kind of added to that grief, the fact that you didn’t have the any joyful memories and things like that. But any anything that people said, or comments or ways that people didn’t support you that you hope they would have.
Sherrie Dunlevy 07:39
Yeah, I mean, there were. I was a television news anchor at the time. So I not only went through this, but I went through this all publicly, right. And so it was it was very, it was very challenging. And it was it was very surprising. Because there were people who showed up for us in a way that was indescribable that really I did not know who they were they they knew who I was, but I did not know who they were. And so that was surprising to me, but was also surprising to me were people who were closest to us who were not there for us. And in fact, I had one instance where one of my closest friends, I thought she was gonna say to me, I’ve got a sitter for the kids. Hang on, I’m coming up. You know, I’ll be with you. We’ll get through this together. And instead, I just couldn’t believe my ears when she said I’m sorry, I can’t do this. And she we ended the conversation and and I didn’t hear back from her. And then one day, six years later, the phone rings and it’s her and she just kind of wanted to catch up. I’ve been thinking about you even on my mind. I was we first of all, like, that ship has sailed. We you know, I was kind of like, honestly my first reaction was like you’re kidding me, right? Like you are seriously kidding me. I was kind I was not rude. I probably was a lot more quiet than what I was. But then when I came off of that call, I really started to think what was this about? Like, why all of a sudden and you know, and so that started me on my journey of wondering why people would abandon you when you need them the most and maybe they don’t even see it as abandonment but that’s what it was. Maybe they just see it as they didn’t reach out you know, but it was and I came up with three scenarios. The first one was that maybe it hit too close to home. You know when you have children and you are giving birth to children and and you’re one of your dearest Friends looses one of theirs, you just automatically think about, oh my gosh, what if that happened to me, and it’s just so frightening that you can’t even think about it and like to even address my sadness makes it too sad for you. The second thing is that maybe you just have never, ever had to deal with this before you don’t know what to do or say, it’s never really been modeled, no one in your life significant has died, or that you know, has died. So you just truly don’t know. But I think the more common one truly is that people really want to do or say something, they’re just afraid it’s going to be the wrong thing. They’re going to screw it up somehow. And so better to be safe than sorry, better to just not say anything, then say the wrong thing better not to do anything, then do something that they think we’ll bring on more pain. That being said, that’s when I started, I don’t know why like this furious search for resources. Because I just kept thinking, there’s got to be something out there to help people with this, this is just crazy, right? And I started to Google it. And I would go on Amazon looking for it. And I would want every time I was going to go past the bookstore, I would go in and look for a book. And I felt this calling and literally like, I don’t know that I had this voice. But there was this knowing voice that said to me, if you’re you can look all you want. But until you write it, you’re not going to find it. Oh my gosh, I don’t write books. You know, like I don’t do this. But the thing I always tell people, the thing between the difference between a good idea and a calling is that the calling doesn’t stop. And it just kept calling me and calling me and calling me and I don’t know how to write a book, well, then, how can you find out how to write a book, you know? And so it just every time that I said yes, another door opened and another door open and another door open. So I really do feel like it was divinely guided. But needless to say, many years later, I wrote a book called How can I help your go to guide for helping loved ones through life’s difficulties. And it is that resource guide that helps all three of those people know what to do and say, to help those that they love and care about go through difficult chapters in life, whether it’s the loss of someone they love through death, whether it’s divorce, whether you’ve just been diagnosed with something that’s terminal or chronic, whether you’re had to quit your job to, you know, take care of a sick child or a ailing parent, whether you’ve lost a job, whatever the scenario of loss is, what can you do to help and support your friends during this time. And these aren’t just my suggestions. Now I realize oh, okay, that’s why you were on television and a reporter, you know how to interview people. And so I interviewed people who’ve gone through all these scenarios, because I found out that this isn’t just death, this is any difficult chapter in life. Some people are there for you, and some people just aren’t. And so I wrote this book, and I’m very proud of this book. And it’s a number one bestseller, and I love this book, and I love talking about this book. But this book is not I was hesitant to release the book because I didn’t want the book to feel like it was pointing the finger at people. I don’t want to point the finger at people. It’s not about that at all. It’s I know you love your friends, I know you want to support them. So I know you’re scared. Okay, so this isn’t about you. This is about them. So let’s let’s make that mind shift first, that mind that that change that mindset, and then let’s talk about what we can do that will really help them. Because that’s what I wanted to know, when I interviewed all these people, what was it that your friends and family did? That was helpful to you? That they gave you what you needed to get through this? And what were some of those unique things and what were some of the things that maybe weren’t so helpful because I didn’t want to say wrong. Because I want grieving and hurting people to realize that sometimes your friends will say things that say sound bizarre that that could be offensive. But I asked the hurting person to take some pause and extend some Grace is the intention of their friend to hurt them, or is the intention loving and it’s just awkward, right? Because we don’t know what to do and say and they’re just trying to pull a rabbit out of it. To make you feel better, right? Or they’re, they’re relying on a cliche to make you feel better. I mean, we all know that, you know, they’re not in a better place we, because we feel their best place would be with us, right? But I just really chose during that time not to get all weirded out over the awkwardness of what people say, because I just feel we’re awkward because we don’t talk about this enough. So that’s kind of why I do what I do so that I get the conversation started. And I say, Listen, this is why we’re awkward. So let’s start just stepping up and doing this stuff. And do it afraid. And, you know, extend grace to one another for heaven’s sakes.
Victoria Volk 15:45
Yeah, you speak my language. You know this because I’m, you know, as a grief recovery specialist, and I know that you’ve gone through grief recovery yourself. And my mission is the same. Let’s talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather. That’s, you know, the podcast was my calling. And that’s why I have people come on, like you to share what was helpful. What was unhealthy, you know, what was unhelpful? Same, same idea. So we speak the same language? Yes, for sure. Um, so let’s speak to that the grief recovery, if you don’t mind for a moment, in when you discovered that and how it helped to transform your grieving experience?
Sherrie Dunlevy 16:29
Well, you know, I came late to the party, about grief recovery method. Actually, it was in the process of writing this book. And I had something I had a coach that was coaching me in my business. And he is, uh, he asked me if I knew what a clairaudient was. And I said, No, I don’t. And he said, a clairaudient is someone who receives messages. And the last two times we’ve met, I’ve been receiving these messages. And if you’re open to it, I want to give you this message. And I said, Okay, and he said, I’m just being told that until you deal with your grief, and you know, none of this, none of the things that we’re working on now are going to work. And I said, Who did you talk to, because I hired him as a business coach, he had he, he knew I was writing a book, but I never told him what my book was about. And I didn’t in in, he just had no way of knowing, right? I thought he had a way of knowing, but I’m like, Alright, and so he said, You know, I have a friend who coaches this, and I would be happy to introduce you. And so she was a grief recovery method. I don’t know what you call yourself, coach, facilitator, whatever. And I met with her. And it’s so funny, because my grief was two pronged. My grief was, of course, not dealing with the grief of the loss of my son, Brandon. But my son, my surviving son, Trey, was graduating college and leaving, graduating high school and leaving for college. And so I was losing another son, technically, right? in a different way, of course, but I had just devoted my whole life to being his mom. And this was my mission now. And so it was just very, I was like, Oh, he’s right. I do need to deal with this. And once I found out about what the grief recovery method was, once I got the grief recovery method Handbook, once I went through the process of oh my gosh, this is like, these are the most amazing tools. And I think one of the things in the earliest chapters was, you know, if you had a heart problem, you would be going to the doctor to take care of this. Now what is so different about your grief? And truth be told, you know, when I had my first son, Trey, I had postpartum depression. And so when Brandon was born, and he was in my doctor, I’d already known that I had gone through postpartum depression, and he was critical. critically ill. Well, automatically the thought was, we want to get you back on the antidepressants. But the thing was, is that I was on them for 13 years. And I kept thinking, I know it’s down there. I could feel it. I could feel it in me, but I had I could not bring it up and bring it out. I had no way of doing that. And it was just weird. So I just, I just carried it with me. It was it was below the surface. At the time I was doing the grief Recovery method though I have come off my antidepressants. So it was just like perfect timing. Because I was able to get there, I was able to get it. And I was able to extract it. And I was able to look at it. And I was able to deal with it. And then I was able to release it. And it was the best gift I’ve ever given myself.
Victoria Volk 20:25
And it is the gift that keeps on giving.
Sherrie Dunlevy 20:29
Yes. And yeah, yes, because the tools are always there. The tools are always there.
Victoria Volk 20:35
And I want to touch on to something that I mentioned when I talk about grief recovery is that the sadness doesn’t go away. You know, your son still has not been with you. That doesn’t go away. No, it is, but it doesn’t have the impact of it. Right? is greatly lifted, maybe reduced. Maybe even the impact is lifted and removed.
Sherrie Dunlevy 21:03
The pain is pain.
Victoria Volk 21:05
Yes. The impact of the pain, like the crippling emotional pain.
Sherrie Dunlevy 21:11
Yes, yes, pain is lifted, you are able to like I said, You know, I don’t have you, it doesn’t like what I say when I started graduating grieve, it doesn’t mean that you’re never ever going to be sad again. And they’re like, I got this I’m good and never to be revisited again. It just means it no longer has its power over you. It doesn’t not have the power to cripple you and take you under and keep you under and hold you under any longer. You know how to get back to the surface. You know how to see the sunshine, you know how to bask in the sunshine, you can seek your joy again.
Victoria Volk 21:55
It is possible.
Sherrie Dunlevy 21:57
It is that’s what I want people to know it is possible, but you have to choose it.
Victoria Volk 22:06
What would you like to scream to the world. And wish people knew about your grief?
Sherrie Dunlevy 22:17
Well, here’s what I’d like to scream for the world. Every life no matter how long or short it is, can make an impact. And my son lived 29 days and here 22 years later, he’s still making an impact. So what I want to scream to the world is your life can make an impact too. And the longer you are imprisoned by your grief, the less impactful you can be, the less you can make your impact on this world.
Victoria Volk 22:57
I 100% agree. 100%.
Sherrie Dunlevy 23:01
That’s what I want to scream is that I had to realize that my son’s life and death was a chapter in my life. It wasn’t my life. It wasn’t what defines my life. It’s not the label, I’m going to give myself the rest of my life. I am Brandon’s mom. I am tres mom. I am Rob’s wife I am Cherie, I am an author. I wear many hats, right? Why do I want to hold on to grieving mom as the total definition of who I am. I don’t want to get you know, I’m I’m a believer. I don’t want to get to the end of my life. And God say Sherry, would you do with the 5060 years I gave you after Brandon died? And I said, Well, you took my son and I laid in the fetal position and cried the rest of my life. That’s like burying your talents. You know what I mean? Like, no, I gave you this life. Why didn’t you do anything with it? Right? At least help someone else that’s there that has gone through it. Right? So I, I don’t not that I necessarily felt responsible for other people and their loss. I don’t. I just feel that I’m supposed to be a light. My life is supposed to be a light shining on hope and healing. That’s just what I feel like my life is supposed to be.
Victoria Volk 24:33
I identify with that. That’s exactly how I feel that’s and I feel like often it is our experience that leads us to our passions and our work often. Not always, but often. I think it’s just an evolution of who we are. But you like you said it’s the impact, right no matter how long or short that experiences and even more What we think might be insignificant to someone else like, and I’m just going to bring this up, I know we’re not talking about this, but pet loss, right to is, for a child can be very significant and impactful. But to many adults, it’s like, it’s just a dog, you know. And that’s one of our first experiences often as children is how and how we learn how to process grief, or deal with grief, or, well, it’s no big deal, you know, get over it, get another dog, you know.
Sherrie Dunlevy 25:30
Yeah, it’s, I, yes, I agree with you, 100%, I lost my beloved dog in January, probably these next to the loss of my son, the worst loss I have ever gone through. Um, and I’m not, I’m not gonna say it’s ridiculous, it is very true, I was very connected to him. And we cannot shield our children or people from this happening, I think one of the most amazing things that my mom did, and that’s what we tried to do was we tried to shield our kids from this, and then they can’t handle it, and then they are adults that can’t handle it, and then we eat too much, or we drink too much, or we try to numb the pain in an unhealthy way. Because we have no idea, any healthy way of dealing with grief. But you know, it’s scary. And even to a child, a dead body is scary. And I remember even as a child, the thought of forever, you know, whether a life ending forever, or an everlasting life forever was scary, I couldn’t put my head around eternity, right. And so those concepts are and then you and then you have the scared of a dead body kind of thing. So one of the things that my mom that I thought was was wonderful, in hindsight, is I remember when I was like, five years old, and one of her friend’s mother died. And there was a viewing. And my mom took me to the funeral home. And so I witnessed my first dead person, my first funeral without being emotionally attached. And so it got the unknowns and the fears of the unknowns out of the way. And so then the next time when that was a family member, or a friend, well, that kind of fear wasn’t there, it was just the emotional, right? And so I didn’t have to deal with all that. And I think as parents, we just try to protect our children from so much. So I would really advise you know, any parent out there exposure children to death in a way that it there if you can, as early as you can, and unemotionally as possible, because then that just helps it make a norm make it a normal part of living. Is that make sense?
Victoria Volk 28:12
Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, it’s, it’s normalizing grief, when you when you have a conversation, when you bring it to the forefront of it being a part of life, you know, we grieve because we love, whether it’s a pet, baby relationship, whatever it is, right? loss of a dream, a passion, a career, right? A home, I could go on and on. There’s more than 40 plus types of losses. It’s not just about death, but it’s the death of loss of safety and security, so many things, so many things that childhood sets the stage for how we address and deal with those things, for sure. I’m glad the conversation went there. I thought it was very helpful, what you shared and I absolutely 100% it’s in line with grief recovery. Throughout your grief experience what has given you the most joy and hope for the future.
Sherrie Dunlevy 29:17
What has given me the most joy, stepping into who I’m supposed to be becoming a little less. I don’t want to say less fearful, you’re always fearful, becoming more courageous in living and living and living. I remember when my son was growing up, I’ve tried to keep him protected. Physically, I just you know, he would climb up to the top of a sliding board or, you know, climb up on a ladder and I lost one child, I can’t lose another you know, and I realized I was inhibiting his growth and probably putting some fears putting my My stuff on him, which probably wasn’t, wasn’t the right thing to do. I understand why I did it now. And so I try to talk to him about that stuff. You know, I just tried to be open and honest about it. And I really, the joy that I have is being able to just let people know that you can live a beautiful life, it’s possible. And I think just by the joy that I get from talking about this, so that people realize it’s possible. I want them to know what’s possible. And that’s what gives me the joy when someone says, Oh, I never thought of it that way. Oh, that’s gold. That’s gold. Because maybe there’s, there’s that breakthrough. Because I just think like, we all have these gifts, talents and abilities they’ve been given to us. And fear always holds us back. And if we can step into who we’re supposed to be, this world can be beautiful. And we’re all holding piece of ourselves back because it’s been hurt, or it’s been trampled on. Or it’s been, you know, something happened to us. And so we’re trying to protect that, and keep it from happening again. But we can’t, we can’t. And so we just have to learn how to move through it. But moving through, it can be a beautiful process. I didn’t realize this until a couple of months ago, I did not know that there was a term for this. But we always talk about, you know, the post traumatic stress that horrible things that happen in your life can cause you. But I think in my case, I’ve had post traumatic growth. And I’ve had, I’ve been able to see the beauty in life, and to see the goodness in life, and to be able to want to embrace that, and put my eye on that. So a lot of beauty came out of this. A lot of growth came out of this, a lot of transformation came out of this. So that’s the biggest joy I have.
Victoria Volk 32:10
About that I would like to talk a little bit more about that post traumatic stress, or post traumatic growth. Yeah, because I’ve heard that float around to on social media and stuff and and i think that also has comes with its own grief because we can lose relationships, based on our growth, we can have an awareness of, Okay, well, you know, you cannot come along, I’ll bring you with me. But if you’re not going to come along, and you know, you can lose relationships. Yeah. And that way you can have an awareness that you didn’t have before that can bring to light Wow, that’s kind of a toxic relationship that’s kind of a toxic person or that careers toxic or whatever, what have you, whatever it is, and there’s grief that comes with that maybe even where you live, you might realize what I really want is this, that this is where I’m at. And now there you have a lot of change.
Sherrie Dunlevy 33:11
Well, that happened to me with my career, I left a you know, very established well established career in broadcasting. And left it I was like, Oh my gosh, this, this is not good. For me. This is not a good career. For me. I was wondering why I was so miserable, tried to get I was able to compartmentalize the the day’s news and come home and still be mom still be alive, still be happy. But after my son died, that’s when Columbine happened. And then two years later, that’s when 911 happened. And it was like I could not compartmentalize anymore the worlds of grief and pain became mine My pain, you know, I could not differentiate between any of it and it just became too excruciating. To remain there. I tried it for a year and it didn’t work. And and I couldn’t get out of it. I counselor actually said you can leave you know you’re allowed to leave I had to have. But that’s the thing. I didn’t give myself that permission. I had to have a counselor and now I try to do the work myself so that I can give myself the permission to move ahead as I need to move ahead, to grow into who I was created to be. That’s what we’re born for. This is to grow into who were created to be.
Victoria Volk 34:35
I’ve often wondered that as I watched the news, you know everything going on and I try not to leave. My husband leaves in the morning it’s off turned off. Yeah, it’s on in the background, you know, in the mornings and stuff. And I’ve often wondered that though, about the people that that’s their career to report the bad news because it’s not all sunshine and rainbows in the news. It’s rarely a Rarely happy news. And so I’ve often wondered about that, like, if what kind of support news anchors have or if any, is that even a thing?
Sherrie Dunlevy 35:10
Not when I was in it now, now and we’re the gatekeepers. So for eight hours I’m looking at I was a news producer, anchor and reporter. And so I, if I produce the news that day, I was taking in all the news from the network’s from the different states from the different countries, and then I would decide what I was pushing out to the audience, right? So for eight hours, I’m taking all of this in, so I’m taking in much more than I’m pushing out to you, right, I’m taking eight hours in and pushing out 30 minutes to you. And so, you know, 16 years of that, think about that, you know, I call myself a recovering news anchor. I I rarely watch the news, maybe I don’t even think it’s once a week. During the pandemic, I’ve maybe two times a month, enough to stay informed, right? You know what’s going on, I mean, believe me, you know what’s going on. And so I mean, if I need to find something out, I know where to find it. But to sit and be fed your 24 hour news cycles. 24 hour news stations, quite frankly, in my opinion, do more harm than good. They disrupt it was never meant to be taken in for 24 hours, it was meant to be convenient to catch the news, as was convenient for you. Okay, but now they’ve done all these tricks with the teasers to keep you staying tuned in for the advertising dollars and whatnot. And, and so they want to keep you there as long as they possibly can. And so how can you not if you feed yourself, this steady diet of all this negative news in the world is bad. And every child every every child is being as a target for abduction. And you know, just like you, how can you think that we have a beautiful world out there, right, you got to turn off the TV and you’ve got to get out and you’ve got to meet your neighbors and you’ve got to listen to the birds and you’ve got to feel the sunshine on your face. And you’ve got to feel the breeze. You’ve got to see the leaves and you’ve got to you know, get to know one another and see what real life is all about.
Victoria Volk 37:36
See feel see feel. Yeah, yeah, smell the goodness that is there. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that the conversation went here, because I think that’s so important. With so much focus on mental health today. Yeah. Who is talking about the 24 hour news cycle? No, buddy. Yeah, on the news. Like maybe we are contributing to this mental health issue going on with our teenagers and you know, the constant phone access and all of this stuff. When you already have grief, which I would beg to differ that each and every one of us grieves something.
Sherrie Dunlevy 38:16
No, every single one of us going through this pandemic right now is grieving, whether you want to admit it or not. You’re grieving something.
Victoria Volk 38:24
Yes. Loss of health, loss of career identity, whatever it is for you. To me. Yes. Freedom. I mean, there’s so many connections hug. Yes, yes. We could go on and on. Right. So yeah. Is that? Is that serving you to watch this 24 hour news cycle? Absolutely not. Do you feel better after you’re watching it? No, probably not. So yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. I appreciate that. So what would say to someone who, like you had experienced a loss of in such a way that you didn’t have those experiences of joy in the meantime, did you do anything that was helpful for you? Immediately or during that time that you
Sherrie Dunlevy 39:13
that I can remember? Hmm. I, I allowed people to love me. And what I, anybody who showed up for me, even if it wasn’t an awkward way, I just accepted it is loving kindness. And I really tried to focus on the people. Just the gift of healing that other people were offering me in the ways that they could offer it, I guess is the best way to say it. I leaned on my family, you know it can pull a marriage a partner can strengthen it and it really strengthened my marriage. We my husband, and I just You know, like today, we just had the conversation. I said, How are you doing today? He says, I think I’m doing okay. And I said, he said, How are you? I said, I don’t think I’m doing so okay. And that’s just how it’s been through our marriage is that he’s strong when I need him to be strong, and I’m strong when he needs me to be strong. And so we honor that, and we talk about it. And we check in with each other. And so that’s what I say is just to, to be open and honest and vulnerable. And you know, I’m not fine is an okay answer. I’m not fine as an okay, answer. And I know this is off the subject, but I just want people to know that there’s nothing that you can say or do that’s going to make it all better for someone. So take the pressure off of yourself and just show up in love. Right? You can’t there’s no magic words. This is just something you have to get through. And so that’s I guess, you know, I focused on the good things in my life, I focused on where the love was I focused on my three year old son I focused on the people who were loving us through it was just trying to focus on the good that I that was still there in my life. And there is still good there in your life. You just have to look for it.
Victoria Volk 41:21
Look for it. Yeah, yeah. And I want to circle back to to the loss of your pet because that was very recent. Mm hmm. And there is a pet loss program. And that’s how important the grief recovery Institute feels pet loss is in our society to many people. How have you allowed yourself to kind of work through that and how have you been working through that loss?
Sherrie Dunlevy 41:49
It was a shock. It was something that was unexpected, and the feelings were coming up fast and furious, which was something that you know, it was different because my son I knew from 18 I had anticipatory grief with my son, right? I didn’t have it as batory grief. So this was just sudden, and he died in my arms and I was just shocked, you know, and the feelings came up. And I just thought they’re coming out. And I remember just sobbing and my husband and my son were sitting there and I said, I am totally committed to honoring this grief and this process. And I’m just gonna let you know that I’m honoring all parts of it. I am going to be vulnerable and when it comes I’m going to feel it and if that makes you uncomfortable or make someone else uncomfortable, that is a you problem that is not a me problem.
Victoria Volk 42:57
I love that
Sherrie Dunlevy 42:59
And I honored that and I stayed true to that and when I want to cry, I cry for my dog. And I literally just I felt release I mean I felt like this, I did it healthily. I use the tools I journaled I did all the thing you know what I mean? Like I did all the things that I needed to do to go through it I didn’t try any shortcuts. I kept saying I’m not fine, but I know I will be I’m not fine now. But I know I will be and just knowing that I will be allows gives myself the permission to get through it the way I need to. And that’s what I want people to know is that when it comes to grief, you think you’re you’re fooling Who are you fooling? You know, like who are you trying to pull the wool over their eyes, you’re not your body knows you’re hanging on to it. You know, it will come out it will come out as anger it will come out as frustration it will come out as addiction it won’t but it’s gonna come out. So why not do it? The way you do it in the most gentle say the right but do it in the way that’s most healthy for you. But that scares us every I remember telling people this when I before I did the grief recovery with my son. I’m afraid that if I ever attached to that, that grief that I will never be able to release it like once I start crying I’ll never be able to stop but that’s not true. It’s not true. You will some day at some point of some day cried enough, right? It doesn’t mean that you won’t ever cry again. But the crying will come to end.
Victoria Volk 45:07
Crying from the pain is is a very different kind than crying from the sadness.
Sherrie Dunlevy 45:14
Yeah. And there is a difference.
Victoria Volk 45:17
Yes, like crying so hard that you think your head is gonna explode like you can’t take it anymore type of Yeah, very ugly cry Yeah, yeah, remember my very ugly cry? Yeah worked on my relationship and grief recovery I was very ugly because that was like, many, many years of buried stuff.
Sherrie Dunlevy 45:36
Right.
Victoria Volk 45:39
I want to just touch on one thing, too. I’ve heard on social media recently I read something where someone said, you are entitled to your grief? And I’ve struggled with that I struggle with that, too. Yeah, I struggle with it. Because to say that to someone who is grieving. And you’re obviously you’re probably there, obviously, they’re looking at the account, they were aggrieved or to, you’re entitled to the grief? Well, you’re entitled to your feelings, yeah, knew you’re gonna have your grief. But to say it, I think and communicate it in that way. It like it just speaks to that attachment.
Sherrie Dunlevy 46:26
it’s gonna say attachment.
Victoria Volk 46:28
Yeah, yeah, it’s like this, like your Velcro to the grief.
Sherrie Dunlevy 46:32
Right to the wall, your label. And I have a real problem with that at that’s what I was finding. I think that support groups can be a beautiful thing. But at the same time, I also think support groups can make you believe that you that you are entitled to your grief.
Victoria Volk 46:58
Well in such a way that it’s this is how it is just going to be.
Sherrie Dunlevy 47:02
Yeah. And it’s and that is why I have graduated grief because I do not believe that. I, I I you know, like, that’s why I started graduating grief because I had been doing some other grief work. And I had been going into these grief groups, and it was breaking my heart that people were being told this that that, you know, just because that’s how someone else believes doesn’t mean, you know, I that would have horrified me. If I had gone into that believing that because I lost a child, I will never be happy again. Or that I will have to carry this dark cloud over my, you know, like, live with a perpetual dark cloud over my life forever. I don’t know, no, no, no, no. And, you know, you look back at remember when the widows used to wear black for a year, but then once the black was removed, right? There’s symbolism in that, that you carry it for a while, but then you read it, you release and you step into who you’re supposed to be. And that’s what I want people to realize, with the graduating grief that that I’ve started is that I want you have to do the work to step out of your pain. So that you can step into loving your life again. Now, that doesn’t mean that that’s going to be an overnight thing, right? Because you’re still going to have fears and you’re still going to have guilt. And you’re still going to feel you know, like all these feelings around that because I did too. But wouldn’t it be nice to be in a community where people are cheering from you for you, and people are encouraging you. And people are saying, you know, I’ll hold your hand and we’ll journey together. It’s what I always tell people journey together. We’re not trying to drive our car in a forward motion. By only looking at our rearview mirror, I want you to see your life ahead of you. Some woman told me the other day, the thought that I have to live the rest of my life. I’m counting the days How many days I have left to live without so and so. That’s a horrible way to live. That’s why would you choose that for yourself?
Victoria Volk 49:18
Because they don’t feel like they have a choice. And that’s what griefs makes us.
Sherrie Dunlevy 49:21
But you do!
Victoria Volk 49:22
I know you and I are the same train.
Sherrie Dunlevy 49:28
Yes, you do have a choice.
Victoria Volk 49:30
Yes, you do. Yes. We’re so on the same train. And I want to bring back to what you said in the visual of wearing black for a year and yeah, you know, you have this veil. And it’s like, yeah, you can change the dress, change your different color, but if you still have the veil, you’re still not going to look in the mirror and see who you could be without that grief. I like to use the analogy or the comparison of a veil like grief is a veil over our faces. We don’t see other people The same way we don’t look at ourselves the same way. It blocks us from who we are. We forget who we are even in that grief and trauma and all those rocks that we accumulate.
Sherrie Dunlevy 50:14
And the physiological, you know. That’s why I was like, Why? Why don’t people know about this? You know, first of all? And secondly, why wouldn’t you immediately try to do something to feel better?
Victoria Volk 50:33
Right? I gotta, I gotta, I gotta point on that. And this is, this is my, my stick on this. So in grief or suffering, you suffer, you feel like you’re just suffering? Why not suffer? But move forward? In the process? Mm hmm. You’re suffering anyway. Right? The worst has already happened. You lost your loved one. There’s only one way but up. How can you get any? I mean, you could get lower, I guess, if you allow yourself to keep doing that.
Sherrie Dunlevy 51:10
Well, I have I have a saying for that. I say if you lay you decay.
Victoria Volk 51:14
oh, that’s perfect. That’s gonna be your quote card.
Sherrie Dunlevy 51:20
If you lay your decay, just like anything.
Victoria Volk 51:23
Exactly, you lay you decay.
Sherrie Dunlevy 51:26
So you’ve got to get back up. So that’s what graduating grief is is kind of like, it’s twofold. It’s like I was thinking about it. When I was in my support group. When I told my husband, I did not want to go back anymore. And he’s like, why they’re lovely people. And I said, because I don’t want to be sad every other Tuesday of the month. Like I don’t want to be in deep suffering and pain. I wanted to start feeling better. This was before I knew about grief recovery method, right? So I, so I thought, well, what was that I was ready to graduate to the next level. That’s so so that’s part of it. I was great. So what is the next level, all there is none. So that’s what I created, right? So that’s what my support community, that’s what my podcast is all about. But it’s also you think about the grief and you’re laying down in the fetal position and it’s dark, and it’s lonely. But then there’s this gradual, you sit up, and then you look around, and then you have to decide maybe kneel and then you put one foot up and then another foot up, and then you’re standing and then you can turn towards the light and start taking steps into the light. So it’s a gradual process from here to hope. Right? So it has a double meaning, but it’s possible but if you lay there you’ll decay. You got to get up. You got to get up.
Victoria Volk 52:52
I think two people are afraid. I mean many people are fearful of change. And so if we have this awareness of Oh, I guess I do have a choice. I guess though there is something that might help me Oh, well that can be uncomfortable too. And I think that’s it’s the fear of not knowing what it’s going to lead to or how it’s going to make you change or not make you change but change you in the process.
Sherrie Dunlevy 53:17
Yeah, yeah, I was I was the most it’s it’s the craziest thing how I’ve become a much more positive person since the death of my son than prior I was the most negative resistant to change if it’s not broke, why fix it? everything in my life, I did not want it to change. I wanted a comfort zone, right. And then when my son died, I’m realized that the comfort zone does not exist. Like it’s the biggest lie like it will change life will change whether you want it to or not. And my son’s death was proof of it. So now how do I want to operate? Right? It’s gonna change whether I want it to or not, and it and you’re not always going to like the change, but it’s still gonna change. Even if you say I’m devoting all your time Sherry to raising your other son now, well, guess what, you’re going to grow up and he’s going to leave. And so he’s changing, everything changes. So you can either change with it, or you can stay in a state of suffering. Because that’s what you’re going to do. The more you’re resistant to the change the more you are suffering you’re in a state of suffering.
Victoria Volk 54:28
What we resist persists. Yeah. Ah, so good. We’ve covered a lot. Time flies. Where is there it First of all, is there anything else you would like to share today?
Sherrie Dunlevy 54:48
Oh, my gosh. I think that I don’t know how there possibly is I’m sure there are I’m sure we could probably talk for another two hours. But I think that I think I just want people to realize, you know, you have to decide you have to decide what you want to do and you in, the longer you deny it, the more you will suffer. So why not just, you know, do the work, it’s going to be painful, it’s going to be so worth it. There’s a freedom that comes in a release that comes. That is absolutely amazing. So do it, you know, just do it.
Victoria Volk 55:23
And like you’ve touched on earlier, too, it’s like, when I started to really do the work on myself, that’s when opportunities opened up. And I was more, I was saying yes, to things I never found, I will say yes to right, speaking in front of people and just the podcast, like, I don’t know how I’ve never done it. Well, I’ll learn I’ll teach myself. You know, it’s like, what’s the worst that can happen? Right? Like,
Sherrie Dunlevy 55:50
I think that’s the philosophy that I have adopted, what’s the worst that can happen? It already has, so you know, and why not live?
Victoria Volk 55:57
Yeah. Exactly. And you find yourself putting yourself out there in ways that you never thought either because like, what’s the worst they can say? No. Right? You know, it’s not living a half life, like someone had shared with me a while back, and it’s kind of stuck with me. It’s like, do you want to live a half life? Or do you want to live a full life? Right? Where can people reach you?
Sherrie Dunlevy 56:28
Sherrydunlevy.com is probably the, you know, the most common way you can find information about my book. I also have a quiz at graduatinggrief.com just to see if you’re ready. You’re ready to graduate from your grief. And I started the graduating grief, podcast and group on Facebook. So join us there if you want to live encouraged after loss, right. So that’s we journey together and to create beautiful lives that we were created to live.
Victoria Volk 57:02
Amen to that. Yeah. Yes, love that mission. Thank you so much, Sherry, for being here. It’s been wonderful. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Cancer, Child Loss, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast |
Margo Fowkes | Lessons From My Beloved Son, Jimmy
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this conversation, Margo shares the lessons she learned from her son, Jimmy, as he battled brain cancer for eight long years.
His cancer took his life at the young age of 21. What is a little different about Margo’s share is that, prior to her son’s death, loved ones close to her who had passed had all lived long lives; close to or in their 100s.
Her own father had passed away, also peacefully, in his home. The loss of her son jolted her beliefs around death and also taught her the importance of having hope to the very end.
Margo also shares some practical things that others did that helped her family get through the years of treatments Jimmy went through and after he died.
We also chat about the importance of grief communication in the workplace, and how, through Covid, it’s even more important to acknowledge the struggles of those with whom we work. Also, to recognize that even happy workplace situations can cause grief, such as promotions.
- This episode is for you if you’re not sure how to support someone you know who is going through a challenging time.
- This episode is for you if you want to hear wonderful insight into how, as parents, they communicated and updated Jimmy’s progress with friends/family.
- This episode is for you if you or your company could use some insight into the topic of grief in your company.
Mentions:
Connect with Margo:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Margo Fowkes. And she is the president of on target consulting, where it’s an organization that helps leaders create a more compassionate culture by speaking openly about grief and loss in the workplace. Also, after the death of her son, Jimmy in 2014, Margo created saltwater, a blog, an online community that provides a safe harbor for those who are grieving the death of someone dear to them. Thank you for being here. Margo. We’ve connected online socially, prior to today. And and so I’m meeting for the first time virtually.
Margo Fowkes 00:43
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. As I shared with you offline, I so enjoyed listening to my friend, David Bartley, get into his conversation with you. And so it was, it was thrilling when you said that you wanted me to come on the show like this?
Victoria Volk 00:59
Absolutely. He recommended you and a friend of David’s is a friend of mine. So happy to have you. So, let’s begin, then, what brought you to doing the consulting work on target consulting, in the work that you do, which I absolutely love, by the way, because I actually gave a presentation to my employer. It’s a international company that I work for corporate, and you know, it was just about grief, because actually COVID and all of this, you know, everything that everyone’s experiencing, and it got good feedback. So I really love that you provide this service for for leaders and places of employment. So how did you tell me the story of how you found out how that work found you, I suppose.
Margo Fowkes 01:52
So, I actually started my consulting back in the 90s, right after my son Jimmy was born. And I did it because I didn’t want to go back to work full time. And I wanted the flexibility of being able to work from home, my husband runs sales organizations, or run sales for organizations. And so he travels a ton. And I wanted something where it was flexible and local. So, I started off consulting to government, because I had come out of government. Right when I had Jimmy, and I didn’t like it, I just found that I was doing these projects. And it was hard to get the person who would hire me sometimes to move on the work that I was doing, it was a lot of marketing and business development kind of work. And so I took some time off when my daughter was born in 1997. And I was really struggling with what to do. And a friend of mine said, you know, you really love the consulting part of it. It’s the clients, you need to switch what you’re like the content of what you’re providing, and who you’re providing it to. She said what you really love doing. And what you’re really focused on is creating a positive environment in a workplace. And she said, So, work on that, consult on that speak on that. So, I started with one topic, which was how to be more positive in the workplace. And then over time, clients would ask me to do other things. So I started doing strategic planning, I started working with boards of directors, I started doing some executive coaching and it just kind of expanded as I went. And one piece of my practice has always been around working with companies who’ve done layoffs and helping them rebuild the team after the layoff because before I went, went into government work, I had worked for unisys Corporation, which was a big mainframe company at the time. And I had been through three layoffs with them. And the first one took our little office of 75 people in Sacramento, down to 50 in one day, and it was incredibly traumatic. And of course, it was far worse for the 25 people who’d lost their jobs. But what I learned through that was that it’s really traumatic for the people who stay to because you feel guilty that you still have a job these people are gone you’re picking up extra work and and the company at the time wasn’t very good at providing any sort of support around that it was like okay, well you have jobs now there’s extra work let’s all get back to work and and the idea was you sort of like you know, you’re supposed to pick up your spirits and, and go on. And so when I started doing the consulting work, I got hired to come in and work with teams who were in the situation that I had been in, and I didn’t use the language of grief and loss at the time, because I hadn’t been through my own losses yet. But I found that when I went back to the consulting after my son passed away, that I really saw that connection that this was a perfect Found lost even though someone hadn’t died. And then once COVID hit all of a sudden now there was much more talk about that in the workplace. And so employers and CEOs and senior leaders were much more open to looking at it through that lens, which is a big shift. But an important one, because as you mentioned, you know, with doing your presentation, there’s so much loss in the workplace that happens, even when it’s when it’s happy things like your manager that you love gets promoted and gets a great new job. But all of a sudden, now you have a new manager. And even if you like that person, you’re still missing the person who’s been promoted. And so, there’s just there’s all those Now granted, that’s not something where you need someone to come in, necessarily and coach you through that you work through it on your own. But I just have found that there’s so much intersection between those two worlds in a way that I never saw until after in until after my son died.
Victoria Volk 06:00
Well, I think that’s where the communication piece is huge. And organizations, you know, as far as well, this is what’s happening, you know, to make it a community experience, where you can talk openly about it right and share openly about it like, you can not like the person that’s maybe taking that position, or you can like them, it doesn’t matter either way, like you said, there’ll be grief about you know, especially if you love that previous manager. So, I love that that work. found its way to you and like how it evolved over time. And I just think there’s so much need for it, so much need.
Margo Fowkes 06:45
Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s I was at my college reunion a couple years ago, and I was connected with someone that I had grown up with and then gone to college with and he was sharing that his sister had passed away of an overdose. And he said, you know, everyone in my work environment, new people sent cards, you know, people reached out, they’re very supportive. But he said, I went back to work, and nobody said anything to me about it. And I have found that that’s actually not uncommon that people and it isn’t through bad intentions, people think, Okay, well, Victoria is back, and I send a card, and she knows that I care and that I’m really sad. But I don’t want to bring it up at work, you know, because maybe she’s not thinking about it right now. And I don’t want to throw her off, or what if she cries and we’re in a meeting and I don’t know how to handle that. And so it there’s this kind of cone of silence that goes around people who are grieving at work and and they need that opportunity, oftentimes to talk to, to talk about it and have it acknowledged, and it may not be with everyone, they absolutely not, but they need at least one person that they can go to when they’re having a hard time and talk about it. And I think a lot of times again, it’s you know, managers and leaders don’t always understand that it is in fact that in one way, that’s simple. And so, the tendency is to just is to stay out of it to just feel like you know, it’s just a landmine, I’m just not going to bring it up. And I might say to her occasionally, you know, are you okay? Victoria, like Is everything all right? But I’m not really going to go there because it’s just too It’s too scary. And I don’t want to do the wrong thing.
Victoria Volk 08:27
Right? It’s a personal problem where like you said, they’re afraid to say the wrong thing. Or, you know, what I find too, is that so often people, you know, you’re given this timeline of time off, when you, someone close to you, it’s like, four days a week, at the most. It’s like, okay, you’re back to work, let’s let’s start cracking, you know, get back to the way it was, you know, and so that’s where that culture, I think of not saying anything, when people come back to work after a loss. You know, because that person, that’s how society has trained us to be so then you presume there must be okay, I’m not going to bring it up. Yeah, it just creates the just the lack of communication and this indifference to it really just feeds into all the myths that we talk about in grief recovery, you know, grieve alone is a big one. And that’s what many people do. I just I love that you do bring this education piece to the to the workplace. Like I said, I think it’s so needed, especially COVID, like during COVID. Now, how has that changed for employers who maybe have an employee that has lost someone like for me personally, like I work remotely. My whole department actually works remotely. We always have. And so you know, I had a colleague lose a loved one recently, it was her mother. You I sent a card and but it’s it’s, it’s really hard now during COVID, when you’re quarantined when so many companies have moved to remote, you know, operating their business remotely? How do you create? Can I ask this, that you have a recommendation for this? Like how managers can handle that, like how they can bring more community to someone who’s maybe have a loss, when we’re all over zoom? Right?
Margo Fowkes 10:30
Right. Exactly. Oh, it’s so much more complicated, because you can’t check in in that same sort of informal way, right? You can’t, like wander by and stick your head in and say, hey, Victoria, you know, how are you doing today? And, and or, or you can’t see somebody in a hallway and think she looks sure eyes are red. I wonder if she’s doing all right, maybe I am. And get that prompting, right, we’re on zoom, we have our little boxes, you know, particularly if it’s a team meeting, and there’s 30 of us, you know, all on the call, it’s hard to tell if I look down, am I taking a note? Am I checking my phone and actually not really paying attention? Or am I upset by something, and it’s really difficult to tell. And I think you said the magic word earlier, which is it’s about communication. It’s about checking in more. And I think in this case, if you’re talking about someone who’s had a had a death, that it’s finding the person in the organization that grieving person is closest to or most comfortable with, and having that person check in along with the manager more frequently. Because one of the things I’ve heard is that sort of the flip side of the knot checking in not asking how people are not offering to adjust a workload or help out in some way. The flip side that people have said is, you know, you meaning me, need to temper what you say about the checking in because I might not want Joe to check in, I might not like him that much. And so it really has taught me to say it needs to be people that that other that the person who’s grieving wants to connect with, it’s not a blanket, let’s have everybody check in and make sure that this person is okay. You might send a note you know, or an email, which is fine, or send a card, whatever. But when it comes to a like a, you know, a face to face or a phone call, it needs to be somebody who really knows that person, well, where the person is comfortable saying, Yeah, I’m really struggling. And I need some, maybe I need some help, you know, they might actually need to maybe see someone to talk about it. But they also might need to really have their workload adjusted, right, like being on the phone might be really difficult. And they don’t know how to tell their manager, look, I can’t make sales calls right now. Because then the fear is, of course that the manager is going to say, well, then you’re not really doing your job, where they probably wouldn’t, they would probably say, Okay, well, let’s have you work on the proposals. And we’ll ask someone else to pick up the workload on the phone calls for a while until you’re able to get back on the phone. So I think it’s just about checking in much more frequently, and probably in multiple ways. So that it’s it’s not always the phone call. Because you can’t have that informal checking in it’s it might be texting and emailing as well. And again, it’s the manager and the and then this this additional point person who should just do it pretty regularly right now, because it is more isolating. I think we’re all struggling more in general. And for someone who’s also had a death COVID has just made everything so much more painful and so much more difficult because of how isolated we all are.
Victoria Volk 13:47
And I want to highlight too one thing is that the relationship, that I like that you brought that up that it can’t just be anybody and don’t make it like a blanket check in because it should be someone that probably has an understanding of that relationship as well. Because one thing that we take for granted sometimes or we make the assumption that, well, if you know, she, this person lost their mother, well, they must be really close, it must have been a really loving relationship, which is not always the case. It could have been a very tumultuous relationship. They may not have spoken in five years. We don’t know that right? Usually, we don’t know that. So the importance of it being someone close to that person who maybe unders has an understanding of the relationship is one thing too that I just want to bring up that should probably be taken into consideration as well. I think we say the wrong thing.
Margo Fowkes 14:45
Exactly. And as you just brought up and know really well his context is so important, because you also get those losses where it’s, you know, an ex-husband, for example, or an ex wife, and people think well, they’re divorced. Right. I mean, I’m sure they’re sad, but it’s not that big a deal. But it’s there can be so much more to that relationship. It’s it, whether whether it was completely contentious, and they were both very happy, you know, or it was the right choice for them to split up, or whether they’re, you know, one party didn’t want the divorce, and the other one did, or whether they just couldn’t really live together, but they remain close friends, there’s so much nuance there. And, again, I’ve just learned so much over the years about the fact that context is all important. It did it really you cannot make a judgement based on the late the box that the loss fits in, you need to know a lot more, because it can be a devastating loss that on paper looks like it wouldn’t be a cousin, for example, passes away and we think oh, distant cousin, like, I’m sure they’re sad. But how close could they be? In my case, my one of my cousins is like the sisters that I didn’t have. And so, you know, it really does vary.
Victoria Volk 16:01
Exactly. And that’s what we talk about in grief recovery, because every relationship is unique, because we’re all individuals, right? So exactly the same loss in one family, everyone’s experience is going to be different, everyone’s perception of the relationship is different, therefore, how they perceive that loss will be different as well. So exactly why we kind of hash that all out and brought that hot highlighted that because in the workplace, it’s huge right now. So, thank you for your contribution to humanity in that way. So, you did speak of that you got into this work, before you even had any losses, and then kind of COVID. And you mentioned the loss of your cousin. What? Take us back to the beginning, like what what have been your losses, this is the whole premise of you being my guest is that you share your grieving voice. So, what is your grieving story?
Margo Fowkes 16:57
So, my first significant loss was actually my cousin Seymour, who was like a second father to me. And his wife, Barbara is my father’s niece. So, my parents and Barbara and Seymour were best friends. And Seymour died in 2002 at the age of 82. And so again, this is where context is everything right? You look at that from the outside, and you think, well, at two, he had a long, full life. But at the time, my father was 101. And so it was devastating to me to lose see more because he was healthy and vibrant. And he developed what we think with some kind of like an occult cancer, they were never able to diagnose it. But he declined fairly quickly over a short period of time. And so, it was a loss that we didn’t really see coming, given the context of my family. And so it was devastating to lose him for me. But again, there’s that you know, what you get when you lose someone that age is you get a lot of, well, they had a long full life and so I did I you know, my son was really devastated because he really loved Seymour a lot. And so I tried to do the whole stiff upper lip thing, right? And and nobody better and it was like, okay, but you know, we had a long, full life, Jimmy would say, Yeah, but Papa is 101. And so he got the fact that this was, you know, we were hoping for a lot longer for his birth, this received more. But at the same time, there was the kind of like, intellectual part of me that just kept saying to myself, that this is what happens. He’s older, you know, you need to just like Buck up and be sad, but kind of, you know, move through it. And then the following year, my dad passed at the age of 102 and a half, as sad as I was, in that case, it’s hard to I, you know, I don’t even know if argue is the right word, but kind of argue for more time. I don’t know who you’d argue with, but the universe, I guess, because he lived this amazing life. He was 60 when I was born, so I to have him for that long to have him see me get married to know both of my children. It was it was just, it was hard to argue with in a way. And so, I was sad. But at the same time, I was so incredibly grateful to have had him for so many years. And so that, you know, that was my early experience to loss and it really in a way, unintentionally sort of set me up, which is the idea that you live to this kind of ripe old age. And then like in my dad’s case, he passed away at home, barely peacefully. And and I thought well, okay, well so that’s how it works, right? It’s like, I just was incredibly naive when I look back on it because I had not had experience with out of order loss Bay. Basically, at that point, and then three years after my dad died, my oldest son, Jimmy was diagnosed with brain cancer in 2006. And at the time, he his prognosis was good, we thought we would be able to just have the tumor removed, he would go through radiation and chemotherapy for a year, and then everything would be fine. And, unfortunately, that was not the case, because the cancer came back. And he eventually did pass away. And that was the that was the loss that really threw me into that whole world of grief, because of course, it was my son, it was so out of order. He was 21. And, you know, I don’t it’s not to say that you can be prepared for this, as you know, it’s like the loss knocks you sideways no matter what. But I think in my case, because of my prior experience with loss, I was more naive than most about the way loss can affect people. And I’ve since learned from doing this work, of course, that it’s so much more prevalent than I realized in so many unfair ways. But at the time, when Jimmy was diagnosed, I just had no idea.
Victoria Volk 21:14
My mama heart goes out to you, I have not experienced a loss of a child, I cannot even fathom what that does to my mother’s heart, other’s heart. So how did that change the work that you did? Or that you were doing at the time? And how much time did you get off? You know, like, I suppose you’re working for yourself, though, too?
Margo Fowkes 21:38
I was. And it was, it was interesting to watch kind of the dance, if you will, that my husband and I did relative to work, we were blessed to find out that we work well, we always thought we worked pretty well as a couple, both as parents and just in general as a good team. But it was really amazing to sort of stand outside and watch how well we work together with respect to Jimmy’s diagnosis and his eight-year cancer journey. So, when he was first diagnosed, I was we were both working. And my husband decided that he was in between jobs, he works for startups. So it’s not uncommon for him to leave one when it’s either sold or goes public. And then he’ll usually take a few months off, and then he’ll start the next gig. So, he was just about to take a new job when Jimmy was diagnosed with cancer. So he turned that job down and just said, You know, I don’t want to go back to work right now. Because my work involves travel. And I do not want to be gone, I want to be able to be home so that if he doesn’t feel well at school, he can call him call me I can go pick him up, you know, so he decided he took, I think he took the full year off that Jimmy was in treatment, and I continued to work. And then we had one year of 92 scans every three months where we thought Jimmy was cured and was going to be fine. And so he went back to work, I continued to work. And then in 2008, when Jimmy’s cancer came back, we decided that Dan would continue to work and that I would step away from my consulting practice, because the thing with Jimmy’s kind of brain cancer is there are 300 Kids diagnosed with it every year. And of those kids, I’m not sure the exact number that statistically they expect to survive it. But it’s it’s somewhere between 60 and 80%, depending on whether the cancer has metastasized or not. So, you can think about how small the numbers are for the kids whose cancer come back. So, the treatment options are much more experimental in the sense of they don’t have huge populations to try out these different protocols. And so, there’s the doctors do their very best to stay up on all this stuff. But it is an overwhelming task to kind of figure out what’s happening all over the country, even all over the world in research and clinical trials when you’re dealing with such a small population. And so, I started working with Jimmy’s doctor who we adore, doing extra research and reaching out to doctors and bringing him information sometimes because of the if it was a smaller trial, he might, you know, not necessarily either have the bandwidth to contact the lead doctor on it or even sometimes know about it just because there was so much information available. And so, I did that during the time that the next six years as Jimmy was dealing with his recurrences. And then after he passed away in 2014, coming back from his celebration of life, my mom got sick and over the next year, her health declined and then she died the year. After Jimmy did, so I wound up again staying not working during that year that she was sick. And I don’t know that I could have any way. I mean, I wasn’t really in much condition to try to put my consulting face on and, you know, go do work. I can’t imagine that I would have worked anyway. But then after mom died, I was the trustee for her estate. And so that took about a year and a half to resolve, you know, to go through just a lifetime of stuff. I mean, she she passed away in the house I grew up in also. So, I mean, my parents had everything from the time they first got married. And so it was an enormous amount of stuff and paper to go through, too. And it wasn’t until I emerged from that, that I thought, Okay, I think I might be ready to start working again. And it was around the time I launched salt water. And I went, and I relaunched my consulting practice around the same time, basically.
Victoria Volk 26:02
When you could finally breathe, right?
Margo Fowkes 26:06
Yeah, exactly.
Victoria Volk 26:07
I’m curious how you helped your son navigate the grief he had around his diagnosis. I mean, eight years, that’s a long time to have like this. Yeah, to deal with this diagnosis. How? How does parent even help a child navigate that? The grief that they have? Did he you know, I’m just really curious about that.
Margo Fowkes 26:33
You know, Jimmy had this amazing, hopeful attitude, where he just always went into things thinking, well, tomorrow will be better. And so like, I remember asking him once on a long walk, because we used to walk a lot just to get an exercise. And also, because it was a, there was something like, it reminded me of when parents talk about being in the car with their child, and all of a sudden, the child will start talking about something, I’m sure you’ve had this experience, as if somehow being contained in those walls of the car, it’s safe to tell mom about whatever the thing is. And so, we would take long walks together. And I asked him once about his scans, and whether or not he worried about his quarterly MRIs. And he said, no, he said, I don’t think about it until I’m doing the scan. And he said, and then I think about it a little bit until we meet with Dr. Nicholson later that day or the next day. But he said, even if the news is bad, he said, I know that you and Dr. Nicholson and dad will figure out what the next best thing to do is, and then we start that, and then I don’t think about it again until the next one comes up. And that’s just basically how he navigated those years. And I know that I spent nights thinking about the things that were lost in terms of his balance and his and his hearing and his cognitive abilities, he slowed down because of all the treatment more towards the end, because of all, you know, of all the radiation and chemotherapy it had, he had this beautiful ability to focus on what was left and, and really find joy in that. And if he spent periods of time mourning what was last, he didn’t really share that. And it wasn’t until the very, very end where he started talking to a social worker, where he expressed any interest in really wanting to see someone to kind of work through what he was going through. So he I mean, I it sounds crazy in one way that this you know, 1315 1820 year old kid carried us but, you know, we’ve we fed off of his hope as much as he fed off of ours. So, he is yeah, it was amazing to watch him navigate it.
Victoria Volk 28:51
I think even just in grief in general, grief, terminal diagnosis, if we don’t have hope, what do we have? So that is the greatest lesson to that. I think young people, they’re more able to live in the present moment than us adults. You know, we’re all up in our heads all the time. But a beautiful gift that he gave you.
Margo Fowkes 29:14
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 29:18
So, in the loss of your mother then happened. So, during that time, what are some things that you found helpful to you? Because I actually I don’t know that I’ve had anyone on the podcast yet who has been through a similar situation of a, you know, long diagnosis like that of a loved one. What are some things that you found helpful to you during that time, or unhelpful that people would say to you?
Margo Fowkes 29:48
So helpful first, the biggest thing was meals. And I got really good advice from a dear friend of mine, who’s a very long-term survivor of metastatic Breast cancer. It when Jimmy was first came home from the hospital, and we were facing six weeks of daily radiation, and then nine rounds of chemotherapy. She said to me, I know you and I know that people are going to offer to help. And you’re going to say, No, I’m good. I’ve got this. And she said, You need to just shut up and say thank you. And she said, you’re going to want you’re going to want the help. And sure enough, my closest friend in Portland, where we lived, Kristen, Kristen said, look, I’m going to organize meals for you. And my initial instinct was to say, No, we’re fine, we’ll go to radiation, we’ll come home, I’ll make dinner. Oh, my gosh, what a blessing she organized meals for us starting it started every day, and people were bringing us food as if we were a family of 12 instead of a family of four. And so we switched it up to every other day. And it was just a godsend, because we’d get home around five or 530, from radiation after Jimmy Bennett school all day. And there would be food waiting on the front porch for us. And it was so incredibly helpful. And so yeah, one big piece of advice that I always give people who are who are dealing with, you know, a cancer diagnosis cancer treatment situation, or even after a loss is it food is just a godsend, so that you don’t have to spend time in the kitchen, preparing it, whether it’s just for your family, or for people who are coming to the house to either be with you and the person who’s in treatment or after a loss. It’s incredibly helpful. I would say that was the biggest thing. And then the other thing that was incredibly helpful was with our daughter, Molly, who’s four and a half years younger than Jimmy, our goal was always to keep her life as normal as we possibly could. And so she was aware, of course of what was happening at an kind of an age appropriate level. But we wanted to be sure she could still go to soccer practice and softball practice and spend time with her friends. And so having someone help with carpool was really helpful. And and having places like my friend, Kristen’s daughter on Elisa is my daughter’s best friend. And, you know, knowing that I could call Kristen at a time and say, can you have Molly over? Jimmy’s really not feeling well, you know, can we get her out of the house? That kind of help is also invaluable? Because this it’s so difficult to, to think in advance about the siblings when you’re in the middle of this. And it’s it was like, you know, Kristen is like Molly’s second mother. And so it was such a beautiful partnership in a way that know that there was this other dear friend who loved my daughter, like I do, who just would would pick up the slack would get her places would have her in the house. Molly was like, you know, her fourth child. So that was really helpful as well.
Victoria Volk 32:55
And that is the gift of friendship, right?
Margo Fowkes 32:57
Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 32:59
You know, friends are there, thick and thin. And that just brings tears to my eyes, because it’s what a gift, you know, people in our lives that, you know, you don’t realize until you need them. Right?
Margo Fowkes 33:14
Exactly, exactly. Well, and that’s with something that when people ask me about it, you know, when we meaning people who want to support someone who’s grieving, I always say go back to the simplest things. It’s food. It’s carpooling. If you’re close enough, and the person feels comfortable trusting your child, you know, with you. I remember right after No, I’m sorry, Jimmy was dying. And we had people coming through the house. And after some relatives left, they left us with this with our counter just covered with dishes and newspapers and my friend and came over to walk our dog, which again, another thing that was hugely helpful, because he’s cooped up in the house all day with us. And so, she would drive over and get him and take him for a long walk. And she walked in the house, and she looked the kitchen counter, and she knew we had more people coming in that afternoon to stay with us. And she said, I’m gonna clean your counter. And I said, no, no, the dog really needs a walk it, please, that’s more important. I’d love you for offering but you know, I’ll get to it later. And she said, Okay, so I heard her leave with the dog. And I went back into Jimmy’s room where he was with my husband. And I came out like an hour and a half later, and the dog was back in and had cleaned the counter. And I have never forgotten that because it was that the beauty of like seeing what needed to be done. And knowing that sure, I could do it, but that would be 30 minutes away from my son. And so she just cleaned it for me. And it’s just it was amazing. And so that’s why it’s like people I think sometimes are looking for like the more complicated answer to how I can be supportive and it’s that it’s cleaner counters, walk the dog mobile Wanna make a meal? And just do it just just show up and do it? Because if you’d asked me well, even then and did say, I’ll do this for you, and I said, No, it’s fine, I got it. Right. And that’s and is actually the same friend who told me when Jimmy was first diagnosed to just take the meals, except the help, and don’t try to do at all.
Victoria Volk 35:21
And that it’s just the logistics, right of being a mom, the logistics, like everyday stuff that, you know, the to do list never ends, there’s always going to be something on the to do list. And so someone can lift that burden of the to do list. It is your right, it’s the simplest thing. Exactly. take the initiative and remove those duties, so you can actually be present with your loved one. Right? Right. What was the best piece of advice you ever received, then after? after he passed and with your mom, and you know, after you could kind of breathe and reflect like, what are? What were some of your greatest takeaways?
Margo Fowkes 36:08
So, I have a couple answers to that, I think the best piece of advice that I got was to keep writing. Because when Jimmy was diagnosed, I didn’t set up a caringbridge page for him, like a lot of people do, I would send out email updates. And I would I tried to have the email updates match Jimmy’s outlook. So in other words, I would convey the truth of what was happening at any given time. But they were always hopeful, there was always you know, even as we got closer and closer to the end, there was always you know, another treatment to try another option, more life left to be lived kind of thing. And I don’t mean that in a sort of Pollyanna way. Like it wasn’t that, but it was it was just Jimmy’s outlook. And that’s what I was trying to capture. And so, I did a fair amount of writing through those. And there were several people who said, don’t stop writing. And I did for a while because it was just too hard. But then I picked it back up again. And so, when a friend of mine suggested that I start writing about child loss, that’s how saltwater came to be as because she said, you know, we The world needs your voice basically, to write about this. And, and that’s I think, because I had done that writing and I had had people say to me, even though I hadn’t actually taken the advice to keep writing during those first couple years, it was always in the back of my head so that when that friend said, you need to start writing again, you need to start writing about child loss that I was I was ready, if you will, to do it. And so it was it was really good, because I don’t know that I would have had the ability to see the impact of what I was writing if people hadn’t told me about it. And so, I don’t know that I would have had the idea to to create saltwater had somebody not said that.
Victoria Volk 38:07
Wonderful. That’s the ripples, the ripples.
Margo Fowkes 38:11
Exactly. And then your other question about kind of what I would tell other people, one would be to write because I do think that whether you write to share it or you write on your own, I do think it’s really, really powerful for people. But I also know that not everyone, you know, not everyone likes to write. And for some people, it just it isn’t appealing to them, it feels more like homework or, you know, something that they just don’t want to do. But the other the other piece of advice that I have, if you will, is that I think in when Jimmy first died, what I wanted most was to connect with other parents who’ve lost children. Because I was so devastated and so guilty as a parent for not protecting my child, even though intellectually Of course, I knew I couldn’t stop Jimmy’s brain cancer. But there’s this like, feeling and so I think as parents, that we should protect our children no matter what. And so, I had guilt. I mean, I had I was, you know, I had moments of anger where you know, the whole Why, why did this happen to us. And the thing that was the most comforting was to connect with other parents. And initially What I wanted was parents who were kind of in the same state that I was in, you know, where the loss was fairly recent, and they were fairly raw. But what I learned was that it was so helpful to connect with people that were farther down the path than I was, because even though I didn’t really want hope or think that I wanted hope. At the beginning, it was so helpful to talk to somebody who who was 10 years past the death of their child and realize that that I could find a way to keep living and to make a life in the aftermath of Jimmy’s death. So, I think it’s really important to have not just the people that are walking with you on that grief journey, and they’re in kind of the same place, but to have people that are up ahead of you, to you who are shining a light and saying, Yeah, you will climb out of this pit, that you will find a way forward even without your son.
Victoria Volk 40:18
And that’s the hope, right? Hope bringers in our lives.
Margo Fowkes 40:22
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I was just gonna say, and frankly, I mean, who else are you going to believe than somebody who’s actually done it? Right? I mean, people around you will say, it will get better, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s hard to believe them, you need somebody who’s actually who’s has found a way to do that.
Victoria Volk 40:43
And that’s with any loss. That’s with any loss that we experience in life. But I want to just highlight to when you talked about finding someone that’s maybe maybe further out from their loss, and they’ve, presumably have turned a leaf in their grief, I suppose. I just want to bring up that sometimes, you know, the support groups, and we talked about this prior to recording, but we talked about, like support groups in general, you know, we look for that similar loss, where we can sometimes then to get stuck in our story. And so, if we’re in a group of people who are all stuck in their story, there’s no progress, there’s no action, there’s no, where’s the hope then, right? If one is just coming week, after week, after week, and sharing the story, because we often don’t want to talk about how we feel. And that’s where I want to bring up when you talked about writing, many people don’t want to get into writing. And just because they might not be a big writer, but for many people. What happens when we free flow, right? We get a little bit deeper than just our thoughts, we get out of our thoughts, and we get into our heart. For many people. That’s why writing feels icky. Right? You don’t want to do it, because that’s painful to tap into our hearts and but it’s also therapeutic.
Margo Fowkes 42:08
Right, exactly. Well, and I think that I mean, I think that’s really true. And I think about like my mom, for example, she and I had I don’t know exactly what the right word is because contentious is too strong, way too strong. But we bickered more than we do ever had in the final couple of years of her life. And she had a rare blood disorder called poly cytopenia, which led to her her different kinds of blood counts, or platelets, or red blood cells and or white blood cells spiking. And so for years, it was controlled first, by just drawing a drawing blood periodically to just lower her counts that way, then she was on a very, very low dose of chemotherapy. But over time, what happens with polysafe emia is eventually the body just can’t process all this extra blood. And it goes into the spleen, and I think into other organs. And eventually that’s, you know, that’s what took her life. But what I didn’t realize at the time, and I don’t know if she did either, was that I think when you think about those counts going up, well, of course, it would have effect on your mood, right? It would affect your brain. And it was the first period of time in our relationship where she was just more cranky about things. And my reaction was not to think well I wonder what’s going on with her because of course, I was dealing with the grief of the death of my son was and and Jimmy’s final years, and then his death. So my my reaction was just to get cranky back. And I carried a ton of guilt about that. The fact that we, you know, had that kind of back and forth. And it wasn’t like we weren’t in contact or we weren’t close. But it would sometimes mar the visits that we’d have, you know, some kind of an argument about something stupid, they weren’t even about big issues that we would be arguing about. And so it took me a long time to start writing better to your point. Because to write in a real sort of way, I had to go into those feelings of guilt and regret. And I’m still working my way through that because I do feel really sadly about sad about that. And part of me knows standing outside of it, I was doing the best I could. And there’s another part of me that just thinks God if you had chest stopped to like, ask a question or drawn that extra breath are counted to 10 you know, could you had less little, you know, kerfuffles about things, but I do, but to your point. So I think that’s both the end and the Yang of the writing, right? It’s on the one hand, it’s what keeps you from doing it sometimes. But it also it does help you kind of work your way through it and see that, you know, you’re human, and you know, we’re humans doing the best we can in any given moment.
Victoria Volk 44:57
And often the hardest thing to do is to forgive ourselves.
Margo Fowkes 45:00
Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah, exactly. If you told me the story, I would be incredibly sympathetic and say, Well, of course, you didn’t have the bandwidth to ask her why she was crying. It’s but it’s much harder for me to say that to myself.
Victoria Volk 45:14
Well, and you were deep in your own grief, like you said. And so, we don’t. I mean, grieve alone, it impacts us our capacity to concentrate to focus to process information. And so, if we’re emotionally, I can get into the talk about energy, and the energy behind thoughts and feelings, and all of that, which I love to talk about energy. But, you know, you probably had a lot of blocked energy, whatever, relate, you know, because regardless of the relationship, we have things that are incomplete for us, within context of relationships, emotionally incomplete, you know, and what is grief, it’s, it’s a change of, or, you know, in a familiar pattern of behavior and loss of hopes, dreams, expectations, and anything we wish would have been different, better or more. So, if you think about that, that is a definition of grief. Like that’s a lot. You can think of a lot you can fill pages of feelings around those things. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really hard to forgive ourselves often.
Margo Fowkes 46:20
Yeah, well, there’s another piece to that too, which is the myth of time. Because in the case of my mom, my mom was 92, her mother lived to be 102, and a half, my father lived to be 102 and a half. And my mother, who’s 20 years older than my father thought, well, she was going to live to be the same age, and so did I. And so as we were having these disagreements, which weren’t normal for us to be bickering in that way, I know that there, my thought was, okay, this is just what’s happening right now. And I knew that I wasn’t as patient as normal, because I was, you know, because I was dealing with with the loss of Jimmy, but I had the idea of like, I get through this period, I’d start to feel a little bit better. I’d get more patient, we get through this right. And then she passed with, and that’s just life, but it’s, but we do often. Do you hear that a lot. People think well, I thought I had more time.
Victoria Volk 47:20
And that’s a myth for sure. Yes, after someone passes, too, it’s like, oh, in time, you’ll get better. You’ll feel better. Okay, well, time just passes, right? So, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would love to share?
Margo Fowkes 47:39
I don’t think so. I feel your questions were so good. And I feel like we we really covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. So no, I really enjoyed our conversation.
Victoria Volk 47:50
I did too. I did have another thought. But it had escaped me. So, shucks, maybe if I think I’ll, I’ll ask you in an email, and then you can respond, and I can put it in the show notes. But absolutely. I feel like, yeah, you know, I have a note here, I’m just gonna say this, because you know, this misconception of is in your in your form that you filled out prior to recording, you talked about how there’s no greater gift than someone asking you to tell them about Jimmy and sharing a memory of him, especially if you hadn’t heard it before, or saying his name. So that made me think of this misconception that we tend to have too is that well don’t mention the deceased loved one. Because, you know, it’ll make the griever upset, it’ll make them upset, or, like you said, like, context matters. And so instead, maybe ask the griever about their loved one, their favorite memory, like you said, or a lesson you learn from them, and saying their name. So, it’s just opening up the lines of communication. But you can do it in a way that’s loving and caring and helps you to reflect as a griever. And think of a happy moment, a loving moment that you had with your loved one. Do you have anything to add on that? Because that was that was something that you mentioned. And I just thought that’s kind of important. I would just want to mention that at the end here.
Margo Fowkes 49:18
Yeah, I guess a couple of thoughts on that. One is I think that as Grievers, we can really help ourselves by letting the people around us know how much we want to hear our loved one’s name, and here are the stories. And part of that is us talking about that person bringing up their name and maybe talking about a fond memory that we have of when we were together with that other person that we’re talking to because I think sometimes people need permission if you will, to bring up something like that. But the other thing I learned too, was that you don’t have to know the person who’s died to bring up their name and the best way I can illustrate that is with a quick story. So my daughter played softball in college. And we traveled with the team, not with the team, but we traveled to watch her play. And I got to know one of the one of the moms of an older player on the team, the mom’s name is Carrie. And we were we would spend time together; we’d sit together at the Games oftentimes and watch. And then one time we were in the airport together and Molly’s bio mentioned, Jimmy, and I knew that people on the team probably knew that he that she’d had an older brother who died of cancer. But Carrie, and I had never really I don’t think talked about Jimmy. And we were sitting in the airport this one time by ourselves. And she was telling me a little bit about her about one of her children who had some health challenges. And then she said to me, I, I’d really love to know about Jimmy about who he was and what he liked, what he was like as and she said, but I don’t know if it’s okay to ask about that. I started to cry, it makes me cry. Now I started to cry. And then the poor thing is thinking, oh, no, like, I’ve done something really horrible. And I said, no, Carrie, I said, I just I’m so overcome, I cannot tell you what a gift it is to have you asked me that. And I realized, like you were saying that there’s always a way in. So that you can ask, even if you don’t know the person who’s passed away, to still give the other the person who’s grieving an invitation to talk about them, that you don’t have to know anything about them. And so it was really lovely, I had an opportunity to tell her what my son was like, and to have her feel free that she could ask questions about, you know, what made him laugh or what he was interested in, or what he loved to do. And it was I’ve just never forgotten it. Because it was such a gift not just in the moment, but also it really taught me the power of doing that with someone else. And saying, tell me about your loved one.
Victoria Volk 51:56
I’m not going to I’m going to kind of put you on the spot. How about you tell us about Jim?
Margo Fowkes 52:02
So, Jimmy, oh my gosh, Jimmy was just an amazing kid. He was. He was so quick to laugh. He had a great sense of humor. And he came out like this, this little Buddha like character, in that he was just so mellow from the time that he was born, he was the kid at parent toddler, when we would separate from the kids for like 40 minutes for a little bit of parent education. And the kids would go out on the playground with, like, with four of the moms and the other. I don’t know, 10 of us who were in the class got, you know, 40 minutes of time with the teacher away from our kids, as all the other kids are sobbing and clinging to their parent their mother’s leg. My kid was the one who was like, okay, mom, Thea, and he would just head out to the playground. And he that that was him. I mean, he was just he was this little Independent Spirit. He had a great sense of humor, he loved to laugh, and I and I still oftentimes I can hear that laugh as he was, you know, be sitting in the living room, watching an Adam Sandler movie, or The Big Lebowski or something that he thought was funny. He just was really present, wherever he was. And so he he was, if he was talking to somebody, you had his full attention, which was just such a gift, whether it was you know, his mom or or someone that he’d met, he used to say, which is one of my favorite expressions, he used to say that he was a Type B in a type a family. Mom and Dad, we are all very type A and Jimmy was far more mellow than, than the rest of us. But the funny thing is, is that what that type B personality often hid, was that that kid was so stubborn. And so he when he didn’t want to do something, it was so hard to get him to do the thing, whether it was homework, or it was, you know, exercise. If he didn’t want to do it, it was practically impossible sometimes to convince him to do it. Which is funny because I think people who, who didn’t have to parent him oftentimes were surprised that I would say that because they wouldn’t see that stubbornness in him.
Victoria Volk 54:27
Thank you for sharing that.
Margo Fowkes 54:29
Yeah, well, thank you for asking.
Victoria Volk 54:31
Anything else you’d like to add? Thanks so much for sharing today for being able for sharing your wisdom around the work that you do with consulting and just a lot of practical things that we covered today, too. So, thank you for that information for my listeners. If people want to connect with you, where can they find you?
Margo Fowkes 54:54
The easiest way to find me is to go to findyourharbor.com Which is salt waters website and the links to my social media are on there. And if they want to know more about the work that I do on grief and loss in the workplace through my consulting practice, it’s on target consulting.net. And there’s a page on there on grief in the workplace.
Victoria Volk 55:19
Can you share a little bit about the name came to be?
Margo Fowkes 55:23
Absolutely. So, the name comes from an Isaac Dennison quote, the cure for anything is salt, water, sweat, tears, or the sea. And a friend of mine, when she saw that suggested that I call the website salt water, and that I organized the blog posts into those three categories. And the minute she said it, I thought, Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. And we also came up with the tagline of find your harbor or find your safe harbor at the same time. So, it was one of those magical moments where you think Okay, that’s it, you just sort of No, this is this is the right thing to call it and the right way to organize it.
Victoria Volk 55:59
Love that. I think intuitive friends is amazing, right?
Margo Fowkes 56:03
Yes. Back to us with exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Victoria Volk 56:08
I’m all about intuition. Yes. Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing where saltwater takes you, and insulting and the work that you’re doing. And so just thank you again, for being here.
Margo Fowkes 56:23
Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for weaving in the consulting too. Because I think, you know, just like your experience in the workplace. I think when I first relaunched on target and started salt water, I thought of them as being very, very separate. And part of that is because salt water is is free from any sort of solicitation. I don’t I don’t ask for money, you know, there’s no, there are no ads on the site. And so part of it was I wanted to keep them separate that way. But it was actually really lovely to watch saltwater, my work with saltwater inform my consulting. And to see that the connection between the two because I hadn’t since I didn’t have to go back to work after Jimmy died. And my husband took some time off as well. I didn’t think as much about the way grief and loss shows up in the workplace. And so I think it’s really important to talk about I think COVID has actually one of the silver linings, if you will, of COVID is that it has broken US Open more to understanding why we have to talk about grief and loss in the workplace. But we still have a long ways to go. And I think, yeah, and I and I think it’s really important to talk about because so many clients that I talked to, when we’re working on something like this, they they so badly want to be supportive, and they have no idea because there’s no training out there for this. They’re just they’re going on Raw instinct and like you talked about with the myths, right? There’s the myth of like, you don’t mention the person’s name, you don’t upset the person maybe you know, it’s been six months, maybe they’re over it or healed or you know, whatever other terminology people use. So, I think it’s a lot of it is about empowering people to just know that it’s okay to bring it up. Even if you don’t know what to do that you just to talk about it and figure out the best way to be supportive.
Victoria Volk 58:08
Well, and as a leader in an organization, it’s about informing yourself. It’s about seeking new knowledge and new otherwise, we resort to what we’ve been taught. And as children, we’re often taught to grieve alone to replace the loss all these different myths of grief that we talked about grief recovery. So yeah, it is very important to change that narrative so that with education, that’s when the tides really turn, right?
Margo Fowkes 58:33
Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, I appreciate you bringing that up because they, I think they are woven together. And sometimes people don’t always see that weaving.
Victoria Volk 58:43
Well, thank you again.
Margo Fowkes 58:45
Yeah, thank you. It was lovely to talk to you.
Victoria Volk 58:48
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Child Loss, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Danielle Duffey: A Bereaved Mother’s Mission for Joy
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
One loss no mother ever wants to experience, and one most of us cannot even fathom, is the death of a child.
Danielle shares how she and her family navigated the most devastating loss of their lives. Danielle says that we are not meant to live this life alone, and through her grieving voice, you will hear just how important support was to her and her family. You will also learn of resources that helped her get through the darkest of days. And, if you know a griever, there are wonderful nuggets shared on how to support others, too.
Danielle found her way from dark to light, and if you need to hear a message of hope, this episode is it.
Connect with Danielle:
Resources Mentioned:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:55
Hey, thank you for joining us. This week, I have a special guest again, which I’m loving these interviews, I just really thrive on one on one connection with people. And so this has been really fun for me to do these interviews and to get to know people on a deeper level who I may have connected with online socially prior. But also to give them an opportunity to share a message that they have to share about their grief. And into especially those who are trying to build a community themselves around a certain mission, which I can resonate with. And one of those people trying to build a community around a mission is my guest today and her name is Danielle Duffey. And she is the creator of the mission mama podcast. So thank you for being here today for your time and energy. And for sharing your message today. How about you tell a little bit more about yourself.
Danielle Duffey 2:02
Thank you, Victoria for having me. I am absolutely honored to be here today. And to provide my insight on grief. It makes my heart happy and gives me joy. So yes, my name is Daniel Duffy and I’m a southern Minnesota farm wife here on our family farm. I’m an army veteran. We have four beautiful kiddos in SUDC parent as well.
Victoria Volk 2:30
And we share that connection which we’re both in the Midwest, and we’re both army veterans. And so who ra to all the veterans listening and tell us more about what su DC is in what is the mission behind the podcast and how how that came to be
Danielle Duffey 2:50
Yes, SUDC stands for sudden unexplained death of a child. So I’ve gone through many losses in my life, but the most impacted and devastating loss has been my 17 month old son Blake, who at 17 months passed away unexpectedly and asleep and so that foundation has been created out in New Jersey to support families grieving the loss of their child anywhere from 12 months to 18 years of age for unknown causes unexplained I mean we’re talking natural causes for no apparent reason. So were unfortunately a part of this this tribe of families through this life experience I’ve created more recently the mission mama podcast. And the mission behind it is really to provide clarity, connection and confidence to not only fellow Mama’s but you know, women alike that have maybe gone through any sort of trauma in their life, but also about all things motherhood, grief, some of my passions, Midwest travel adventures, you name it, but just in order to become a better version of of oneself. I’m creating that community as we speak and going through life with all these other Mama’s and friends. To just find that clarity and confidence to get through.
Victoria Volk 4:25
First of all, usually, what we create is often out of our pain, and I want to acknowledge that I do not know what it is like to lose a child. So thank you for sharing that. And we’ll dig more into that in the podcast today. But I think a lot of women mothers, we navigate life and especially kind of what I was my kids are older they’re teen preteens and especially when they were young and diapers and all of that I still had this I viewed motherhood is like I was in the trenches like you feel Like you’re in the trenches of motherhood mom veterans out there you can resonate with that term the trenches but but also the word mission right because it is our mission as mothers to provide safety comfort, a strong back for our children when they’re vulnerable and to just ensure that they walk out of our homes at 18 hopefully maybe not. That’s okay too resilient, right? emotionally resilient and able to tackle all of life’s challenges what happens then? If you have a loss of hopes dreams and expectations for that child when you lose them and I don’t know what that’s like, but tell us about Blake
Danielle Duffey 5:44
Oh, obviously getting emotional here but it’s it’s good it’s it’s that purpose and that the why I am you know, getting up every single day. But you got to talk about that loved one and so he you know, being that he was 17 months old, he was so young, starting to show that bright personality talking you know, but he was he was so lovable to give hugs and I he was always an old soul It was very interesting we have an older daughter who at the time was two and a half they were very close in age and so he would always want to protect her and take care of her he had bright blue eyes blonde curly hair and it just he was just so lovable and just so fun and vibrant and loved tractors trucks all boy and so life felt you know life was good at that time we had a boy and a girl and that’s that’s kind of what our plan had been and it just all changed in an instant
Victoria Volk 6:49
I’m not even sure where to go from here.
Danielle Duffey 6:52
It’s hard to fathom I mean literally it just it’s just hard to fathom because especially again, grief is personal not saying there’s just grief this losing a child is just a deep level like it’s unimaginable on like it doesn’t even pop in your mind we didn’t have any warning we didn’t have any there’s no there’s not that closure but I know that that may not have even changed the result if we had been breathing over a sickness or some sort of you know disease whatever but we just had absolutely no warning he was healthy and happy child
Victoria Volk 7:37
And you know how they say like your life changes in an instant even if you have that time to mourn or grieve like with an illness or something like that it’s still in an instant it is but I can’t imagine you you know your child goes to bed vibrant and alive and full of life and I cannot imagine and so I extend my mama arms to you and I wrap you in love and I hope that those listening to this send you all the mama love Juju here thank you and so I I can see where this foundation that you kind of that you briefly spoke about is a I don’t I don’t want to put words in your mouth is it like a deep seated passion now for you to spread the word on this? And is that part of mission mama as well.
Danielle Duffey 8:27
It’s starting to become I think the first few years of this this grief was was very raw in you know in that survival mode. And you know, we had two more children after that we move all these big life changes. And so I felt like I was holding my breath for four years and I wasn’t I wasn’t able to even able to express my emotions. I suppress them for so long. I wasn’t I didn’t grow up talking about feelings, emotions. And so last year really started to manifest and pivot into this new transformation into the mission mama podcast and I’m still learning about what is able to provide me comfort what the SBDC foundation can provide that I knew all along they were able to provide, like this community of families, therapists, they have a retreat all these things but I wasn’t ready and now I am ready to open up my heart and comfort anyone that I can and I can’t even it’s still I still question it. But again, I can’t I can’t live like that I can’t live in so much sadness and despair when I have a family and want to be there in the present. Even if I’m hurting still so very bad. It’s just I’ve become aware I can’t I can’t live in so much sadness when there are tools And resources and a podcast like you’re providing to the community like it’s, it’s incredible truly you can you can move through grief and joy, they coexist.
Victoria Volk 10:11
That is actually the one message that the interviews that I’ve completed so far that is the one thing that I’ve connected the dots of what is said is that joy and sorrow are parallel experiences. And especially when it comes to grief and and just life it’s writers not it’s not one or the other. It’s a and, and you can feel both in within seconds, and that’s okay. But, you know, in the moment, you almost feel like it’s something wrong with me. Am I going crazy? Like I just feel like, I’m just it’s, it’s like a continual roller coaster. I you know, I imagine for myself when I was it was kind of like this roller coaster over many years. But when it initially happens, an event takes place in the split second like that. It’s I’m sure it’s just literally minute to minute.
Danielle Duffey 11:11
Literally, I definitely, that that seems so fresh in my mind. But it has been for years, which is like, wow, where did Where did that time go? Yes, that specially that first year, when you’re going through those firsts of what should have been very raw emotions. I mean, I cried multiple times a day, every single day, and even hearing you just say it’s okay. I never heard that. Because people are so uncomfortable. And even your, your closest family and friends, they’re, they’re grieving in a different way. But they don’t know. They don’t know what you need. I don’t I didn’t know what I needed. I just I didn’t need to hear that it was okay. I had met some mothers that had lost their children at some point previous and that there’s one one gal she reached out of her way I didn’t know her necessarily. And that was one comfort was the joy and sadness coexist. And she recommended me a book and it’s called choose joy by Kay Warren, that I still read to this day. Because it provided it provided that that little comfort that i was i was i needed at the time,
Victoria Volk 12:37
Thank you for sharing that resource. And you bring up a good point and that you have friends and family who are also probably grieving that loss, but it’s going to be different for every, every person involved and they don’t know your grief. Right? Because that relationship is unique and individual and and yours. Yours Mom, you know, like you cared? Like there’s there’s really something special like, we are blessed in that way. Like we carry we carry 100 literally Yeah.
Danielle Duffey 13:10
My husband will admit I mean, the mom carry carried you know, we I carried him throughout my pregnancy and I laid him down for us now. But that’s so special. It’s it’s on the other extreme right? I laid him down for his nap. And I have those memories so close to my heart. And I say one of the misconceptions or realizations that I became aware of is grief is love. And I struggled hard. But why wouldn’t you write?
Victoria Volk 13:58
Exactly? Because you love and I’m curious to like a loss like that, where it’s a child. Men grieve differently, too. And so do you mind speaking to how you did grieve differently and how you have navigated that aspect of your marriage and life?
Danielle Duffey 14:19
Yes, because that that’s also a misconception that I know you had asked for prior to this and I’ve been reflecting on that. And so I think I know a lot of people in general we’re taught to try to fix everything you know, any uncomfortable emotion especially grief is uncomfortable and so I remember very early on is we’re navigating as parents through loss and then our My daughter is I think maybe it’s it’s man, I don’t want to speak to all men. But But you know, there are experiences When I would I would break down or have just constant constant just terrible days and he would want to fix everything he would say he would walk away or distract himself and I’d be sitting there and I felt very discouraged and questions why aren’t we in line with the same emotions the same thoughts what we do said everything How is he leaving the house today? Right? Even my daughter when she would cry we didn’t know what to do I would my approach was it’s okay I know I am so sad I cried today mo you know like where he was more trying to fix it his approach and we we allowed each other to feel what we needed to feel we’ve become stronger but that’s that’s where I just recognized now I knew I need to feel it out feel it out talk through it feel it I mean there were days I just sat there in the house alone and it hurts so bad. But looking back I’m I needed that at that time where now even years later I know how to I know how to get through those bad days with tools and talk to someone where maybe he hasn’t dealt with it as much as I had early on that misconception is grief is personal in spouses 100% they don’t deal with it I think my biggest suggestion is is to listen to each other just and not have Try not to set those expectations because that that really turns into maybe some just resentment or any just it builds up right so over time too I more recently started to talk to a therapist that wasn’t a you know a family or close friend because it’s not the same we I’ve just dealt with over time so much loss and it relates really built up that I finally was able to tell myself okay, I need to start reaching out further into this network of therapy. So
Victoria Volk 17:09
Yeah, and there’s no absolutely nothing wrong with that. You know, I I’ve done another interview to where you know, it’s somehow like we have this notion that because you have a therapist or you’re going to therapy it’s it’s a negative it’s a bad thing and you know, I I went to a doctor and the doctor wants to prescribe an antidepressant and I was like, I did try it but I’m like nope, this is not what I want. This is not what I need and and I had tried therapy and it’s like, you got to find what sticks you got to find what works for you. But there are resources, there are tools there are options and there is hope. Yes, that’s what that’s what I hear in your message is even on the darkest of days. When you are allowing yourself to feel it which I feel is self care in and of itself. Self Care isn’t always just going to get your nails done or you know some people roll their eyes at that like going to get your nails done but if it makes you feel good, that’s self care. I don’t know I i think self care the word itself or the phrases means different things to everybody but I think in grief, just allowing yourself the space to feel itself
Danielle Duffey 18:28
I started doing and I tell this to others is create a joy list because sometimes it’s okay if you just breathe, I mean or get dressed. It’s that’s alright. But over time you can start to add anything throughout your day that does provide joy and so that has helped me even to this day of I’m just having a really crappy day I woke up negative whatever it it is. I know I need to sprinkle in some joy and it can be anything in your home. I can’t leave the house a lot without my kiddos so I take a bath or I I light a candle. I meditate for a few minutes I wake up in the morning, really early and have my morning routine and that is been a saving grace for me.
Victoria Volk 19:18
I love that and I’ve found that for myself as well like in COVID and just the roller coaster that so many people are riding right now with everything going on in the world. I think just making time creating that time in your calendar even if it does mean you have to get up a little bit earlier. You know I’m not a morning person. I don’t know if you are but
Danielle Duffey 19:41
I never used to be until last year having our latest daughter I knew I needed to change up and I started following Rachel Hollis and the start today journal has a gratitude practice that was really pivotal for me because I started doing it One day three days five days and it formed a habit after 30 days and I haven’t stopped since and that gratitude just creates this abundance and openness in your heart and it’s carried over in my life so the listener doesn’t have that I would recommend starting
Victoria Volk 20:21
It brings awareness too to your body and to your breath to your mindset just even just the act the action of thinking about something to be grateful for and maybe not like grateful I had a great night’s sleep and that’s great you know, it might be something as simple as that but is it that you have a warm bed and the comfort and someone next to you that is supportive? You know, you can get a little deeper with it, you know, yes. So I love that tip too.
Danielle Duffey 20:49
Especially when life is or seems so unbearable you it just Yes, that awareness creates these blessings in front of you that you may have not seen before and it’s survival truly
Victoria Volk 21:04
Well and it’s shifting your perspective in a moment and probably in a moment that you really desperately need it right others might end up get we kind of get in a tailspin you know we start down that rabbit hole of negative thought processes and and thoughts and feelings and it just it it snowballs can snowball if we don’t have an awareness around that and so although I don’t know that we can gratitude ourselves out of grief but it is just another tool in the toolbox right? It is you know for those moments where we really might have to dig for something to be grateful for so thank you for sharing that what has been I want to speak to a little bit what was some of the unhelpful things that people unintentionally I do believe it’s unintentional it’s just you know what we kind of learn in since we’re in diapers, but what are some of the things that people said or did that was hurtful or unhelpful in your during your time of loss?
Danielle Duffey 22:06
We’ve we’ve had nothing but strong support and love surrounding us but I think early on especially as those closest to me or even not not even closest to me if I was out in public they they would turn away and it it may seem so small but I haven’t forgotten but it’s it’s not saying anything it’s not acknowledging your loss for gosh sakes like it’s it’s your life I mean and so for those that I remember having you know dinner with one friend here and there and I was so I was suppressing my emotions and I wanted them to bring it up but we had never done and then I remember leaving and I was just devastated and so for I think the mess conception too is if I don’t bring it up they’re not going to be sad right? But it’s the complete opposite and I think it’s just what people didn’t say for the majority we we had nothing but strong support I remember having a food train for the first year of our life of loss of losing bright lights that whole year every single week we had meals and that was so comforting. We didn’t know it was company but it was such a small gesture that went a long way. But I think just again as I said that the unintentional but unhealthy things were what people didn’t say or I guess for me that was that was mostly it. We’ve we’ve just had a really, I would say a healthy grieving process and strong support I don’t I have the type of personality I’ve really never cared what anyone thought and I think that almost helped in the process because there were probably thoughts and assumptions with whatever we were the only one going through that we knew that there was nothing we could do to have prevent this. This is a this is a very rare circumstance but possible and so I guess that’s that’s kind of the gist of what I have to say. But um, I had heard of just so many other stories and families and that guilt that some carry, but we we had a strong support system.
Victoria Volk 24:25
Thank you for sharing that tip on the food train and a year that is amazing. That is amazing support. And the reason why I asked that question though, is because I want to bring an educational piece to how we can support Grievers. Even just when you know someone is grieving, just acknowledging their presence, you know, not turning away but acknowledging that you see them exactly that they don’t have the plague that goes a long way like a smile and a wave. You know, you don’t know what to say. Just smile and Blow a kiss or, you know, if you don’t know what to say there’s gestures to express support, right?
Danielle Duffey 25:07
I think one thing that I, one thing that I just thought of actually, and again, you don’t know what you need. And it’s not really a pet peeve at, you know, at the funeral and over time. So many people would say, please let me know what you need, please reach out, you can barely take a breath, you need to reach out to those grieving parents, you need to just send a message, just say I’m thinking about you. And that’s one thing that I had in my notes is one thing that I provided me comfort was one of my good friends, she’s she’s just so good to me, she texts me or she would reach out every single week for a year. And let us know she’s thinking of us. She would acknowledge those milestones, she would acknowledge Blake’s birthday, she would acknowledge Mother’s Day versus not. And so that meant, and it still means the world to me today. I that’s what I have to say to that. And then one thing that popped in my head, too, as you asked that question was, I was a full time working mom. And I remember going back to work in the office Two weeks later, I don’t even know how I got myself to leave the house. But my employer hadn’t ever gone through something like that. And I didn’t know what I needed. I the misconception, too, is Oh, so you’re taking a lot of time off. And I’m thinking to do what, no, I need to have purpose I need to live I need to stay busy, almost be distracted. But I wish I would have taken more time to be with family to be with friends. Because as soon as the the kind of the funeral and the you know, the family leaves, you’re alone, my suggestion is, is to work from home or just I mean, do what you know how to do do that next best thing, but I didn’t need I should say time off right away, I needed more time throughout the year. But um, I didn’t have any PTO. So I wasn’t I didn’t feel supported in that way. Just reflecting back, though. And again, I didn’t know at that time,
Victoria Volk 27:27
Thank you for bringing that up. And actually, that’s one aspect of you know, that is a blessing of being an entrepreneur is you have that flexibility. But if you do work for somebody else, we typically get, you know, three or four days of bereavement time I use that in quotation marks like, yes, you know, you get three or four days to get over your loss and come back to work and function as you always did. That is so unrealistic. And I do wish and hope that companies if you’re CEO of a company, and you’re listening to this, or you’re an entrepreneur, and you have people working for you, and they are going through a difficult time or period to step up to the plate and support them in their loss, because they are not going to function the same way as they did before in grief. And you can speak to this speak to that your experience of Did you feel like you could concentrate focus, get through the day and be productive? Like Did you feel like you were even being productive?
Danielle Duffey 28:26
It’s pretty much a fog. But no, I had recommended to my employer to start a PTO donation or you know where employees donate, we were a smaller company. So it wasn’t possible. You just need to know that it’s okay if you need to step away or just have that flexibility, know that just validate their emotions.
Victoria Volk 28:50
Absolutely. Grief actually costs our economy into the billions. I think it’s $17 billion a year. And that’s an old statistic, that grave causes companies and our economy and productivity and just loss of work and things like that, because that’s why I just always say this, like grief is our pandemic, it always has been, it’s this unspoken. It’s just this unspoken thing that is an undercurrent of every single one of us, because we all endure loss of some sort, you know, loss of hopes, dreams, expectations, anything we wish would have been different, better or more, you know, that’s in the context of relationships, usually, but we have these intangible losses, these ripples of our losses. Can you speak to those ripples of losses that you experienced? That you can I know I’m kind of putting you on the spot, but it does anything come to mind,
Danielle Duffey 29:45
Maybe some relationships. I think, again, I mentioned this past year after having two more children, not really having a time to take a breath. I’m a new self. We have a new life. So So it’s grieving those intangible losses are relationships new jobs that come and go new passions Blake would be entering kindergarten and so there’s there’s that that I carry you really have to spend some time to have that quietness to really reflect on that but but it does unconsciously affect you so much
Victoria Volk 30:25
But you mentioned a lot of change to during that time it wasn’t just the loss but then a lot of change that followed and you added two more children to your family dynamic and things like that. But like even just moving I don’t know the circumstance of the move but even that like you’re saying goodbye to maybe old neighbors or and I know you said you’d live now in the country.
Danielle Duffey 30:45
So we we actually only moved a quarter mile away, right? So we we live on the family farm, we swapped houses with my in laws and that are probably going to be listening to this. And I’ll be honest, it was a lot right away. I was pregnant with our third child, our son, and it was a lot because so it was happening so fast. I really didn’t have time to reflect, make any decisions. It was just all it was all overwhelming and confusing. However, I think it was the best thing. We’ve recreated a new life in this new home. It was I have faith. It was it was how it was meant to be over there at the old place. There are memories and yes, maybe early on it was it was sad because those were the memories. We spent a lot of time outdoors. That was our home. But now we’ve created our home. We’ve we’ve made it our own, we’ve planted a tree for Blake, we’ve made it our own as time passes it, it doesn’t get better. It just gets different. And it’s really hard to articulate that because we’ve endured so much change. But I can admit that it’s it’s the way it’s supposed to be this was our plan all along. So I’ve become to accept with, with new life with new relationships, there’s going to be loss, those intangible ways and also with growth. I’m a new person I’ve grown so much. And I never imagined talking about this at all, or let alone having my own podcast. So it’s very interesting how life works,
Victoria Volk 32:37
I would have to agree that I’ve experienced exponential growth through loss. Another gal and I on podcast interview and just the one that went live last week Patsy, we kind of briefly touched on that, like, you know, the eye rolls of, there’s gifts in grief. And one of those is growth. I feel you don’t want to hear that though. When you’re that’s the last thing you want to hear probably when you’re really experiencing knee deep in loss. But beautiful things can be on the other side.
Danielle Duffey 33:08
I can yes I can. I can relate to that. I had said before Life was good life felt good. I I felt like I was in the moment moment. I’ve always been an intuitive person, optimistic positive. And then most recently, I feel I feel more awake for whatever reason. It’s It is a beautiful gift. And I can admit to that. I feel weak. And it’s scary. Because you do question the good, but I’ve never been or felt so grateful in my life. I mean, my heart is exploding with gratitude.
Victoria Volk 33:46
I just got chill bumps. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You shared a lot of tips today, connecting with others last, allowing yourself to feel like honoring your feelings and emotions. absolutely important. Not setting expectations, right on anyone else in their grief and how they grieve. And I’m sure even to like just the dynamics of the relationship kind of shift for a time until you recalibrate and you find your way back to each other. And I love to how you shared how to support a griever you’ve given a lot today through your story, and I appreciate you and I thank you for sharing. I just want to read this for everybody because I just I really love it. And this is in Danielle’s words. I believe part of my purpose through the mission mama podcast and community to connect and provide clarity and confidence for those fellow mamas out there. We are not meant to live this life alone. And I think that is absolutely beautiful. We are not meant to live this life alone. And so if there’s anything that you got today from Danielle’s message, I sure hope and I believe wholeheartedly that you’ve, you’ve heard hope today. And that’s to also my mission on this podcast is to share that there is hope. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Danielle Duffey 35:11
As you’ve alluded to, we’re all going through some sort of loss or will in our life. And this morning, I was listening to a podcast by Emily Freeman. And it really sunk in and I so I want to speak to that as my one last thought. But in our world today, supposed to be no longer has a meaning. You know, we all know that to 2020 has really been out of our control to be in control is an illusion. So instead, we’ve had to adapt, accept and acknowledge what we need to let go and continue to just do the next best thing. And I think when to when that is, with your podcast, you’re positively contributing to the world, especially right now. So many people are grieving and having these tools and resources and, and connections is incredible. So thank you for what you do as well. And I feel honored to be your guest today.
Victoria Volk 36:17
Thank you. And also too create a joy list.
Danielle Duffey 36:21
There you go.
Victoria Volk 36:23
There was a lot more I think we could have dug into, but I really feel like we covered a lot. And I feel like what the message that needed to be shared today is good. So I thank you for your message for sharing your grieving voice. And if people want to reach out to you if they want to hear more about the organization, SUDC, if they want to maybe be a part of your podcast, be a guest on your podcast, mission, Mama, where are the best places that people can reach out to you or find you?
Danielle Duffey 36:59
Absolutely. You can find the mission Mama. The best way to connect is on Instagram @themissionmama and I’d love for you to support or acknowledge that SUDC Foundation, you can contact me for more or you can go to sudc.org I’d love a shout out if you need support or comfort. Let’s connect @themissionmama. And again my my heart is full. So thank you.
Victoria Volk 37:29
Thank you for being here. And I will put all of the links in the show notes. She shared a lot of great nuggets, books, the journal everything that Daniel mentioned I will put in the show notes thank you again. My mama heart goes out to you and many blessings for your family moving forward. And to all my dear listeners Thank you for listening for your time. I know it’s precious, but this message I feel like needed to be heard. So thank you have a great rest of your day everyone. Bye. Much love from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Child Loss, Grief, Miscarriage, Postpartum, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Resources |
October brings to mind pumpkin spice latte, fall colors, and National Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Also, October is also not just about breast cancer awareness, but it is also National Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness month, which was established in 1988 by former President Ronald Reagan.
At the time, Reagan said: “When a child loses their parent, they are called an orphan. When a spouse loses her or his partner, they are called a widow or widower. When parents lose a child, there isn’t a word to describe them. This month recognizes the loss, so many parents experience across the United States and around the world. It is also meant to inform and provide resources for parents who have lost children due to miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, stillbirths, congenital disabilities, SIDS, and other causes.” Also, October 15th is World Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Day.
The number of people who face this loss is staggering! The American College of Pediatricians noted the statistics from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services earlier this year:
- 1,000,000 pregnancies end with the loss of a baby through miscarriage or stillbirth each year (nearly 1 in 4).
- 24,000 infants die each year in infancy.
Each of these deaths creates multiple grievers. It is not just the parents who are impacted; the grandparents, siblings of that child, other family members grieve the loss as well and close family friends.
The American College of Pediatricians points out that this silent suffering can continue for years or even decades. Anyone who does grief recovery work would also agree with that statement. All too often, grievers receive little or no support to help them deal with this emotional pain. Considering miscarriage is one of the most minimized losses, it’s understandable there would be a whole lot of silent grievers out there.
The Emotionally Painful Things People Say
Friends and other family members may think that they are supportive, but all too often, the things that they say come off as intellectual comments rather than emotionally sensitive ones.
Typical, unhelpful comments include:
- You can always have another child
- At least it happened early
- God needed another angel in Heaven
- Next time will be better
- At least you have other children
- I know how you feel
- Grief just takes time
Ask any parent who has lost a child if any of these comments made them feel better. Most, if not all, will answer with a resounding “NO!” No child is “replaceable,” so the idea that they might have another child does little or nothing to relieve the pain of losing this one!
People never intentionally mean to say hurtful things to grievers! Very few of us have been educated as to “the right thing to say” in this situation or any other grief causing event. Furthermore, others that are worried about saying “the wrong thing” often say nothing at all. The absence of acknowledgment can leave these grievers feeling that their deep emotional loss isn’t important or painful.
Time Heals Nothing
People often say that “Grief just takes time.” It would be wonderful if this were the case or that there was a time table to grief. Unfortunately, this is not true; time does nothing but pass. Over time, a griever becomes accustomed to carrying around that emotional pain deep inside. Grievers “silently suffer,” because no one is there to offer an effective way to deal with it! It’s action taken within time that matters most! While there may be a number of “support groups” in your community or online, many of them support you in expressing your pain. However, few offer few, if any, assistance in helping you to take effective action to move out from under the cloud it has cast over your life. If you are, however, looking to connect with those who’ve “gone before you;” navigating a similar and devastating loss such as miscarriage or an infant, click here to find support, if you’re not finding it in your community.
How You Can Take Action to Move Forward
In addition to the link provided above, if you are suffering the pain of having lost a child, check to see if there is a Grief Recovery Method Support Group in your area. Unlike most other support groups, this program offers a truly effective action plan for emotional recovery. It is not about forgetting your loss, which you will never do, but instead teaching you the necessary tools to deal with the pain in your heart!
John W. James, a Vietnam veteran and creator of this program, lost his first son within days of his birth and struggled with his grief after that loss. Rather than just giving in to that pain and carrying it with him for the rest of his life, he searched until he found a recovery solution that worked. He discovered a way to say “goodbye” to the dreams and expectations he had for the life of his child, without letting go of the joy these dreams had brought to his heart.
The Best Thing You Can Say
In any grief situation, perhaps the best thing to say is: “I cannot begin to imagine how you are feeling. I’m here to listen if you would like to talk about it.” If you experienced a similar situation, you might add how you remember what it felt like to you, but that you wish to understand just what it is that they are feeling. After that, listen without analysis, criticism, or judgment. Realize that there is nothing that you can say that will “fix” the situation and make it better!
Reach out to anyone you know who has suffered such a loss and let them know that you are thinking about them and care! That’s the simplest way you can be supportive!
On a personal note, I’ve never experienced a loss such as these and I cannot even wrap my head around what these losses feel like. We are never supposed to out-live our children, regardless of how long they’re heart was beating. A beating heart is a human being with a soul and it hurts when the opportunity to watch their soul be fully expressed is lost. Not to mention, all of the hopes, dreams, and expectations, too. My heart goes out to you if you’re reading this and you’ve experienced a loss such as these. Never lose hope of recovery – it is possible. John James is living proof; he has created a gift that keeps on giving – for himself and for the world.
*This post is adapted from The Grief Recovery Institute blog.
P.S. Are you interested in learning more about the grief recovery programs I facilitate? Email me at victoria [at] theunleashedheart [dot] com. Do you want to be the first to know of the next group starting? Sign up for my newsletter that’s filled with content not shared anywhere else. News, Grief Recovery related info, and insider [personal] info is shared with my fellow hurting heart tribe first! Newsletters go out each Wednesday, so click here to join me >>> Or, perhaps you prefer one-on-one? We could start one-on-one as soon as you’re ready if you’re local to me! Get in touch for more info.
