Grief, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Pespective, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR).
Today on Grieving Voices, I had the honor of speaking with Sabrina Fletcher, a compassionate pregnancy loss doula who brings solace to parents facing the heart-wrenching decision of terminating a wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. Sabrina bravely shared her personal journey and how she’s turned her pain into purpose by supporting others through similar grief.
Key Points Discussed:
- The surprising prevalence of TFMR compared to stillbirths and the taboo surrounding it.
- The emotional turmoil and quick decisions forced upon parents facing unfavorable prenatal diagnoses.
- The grief journey taken by both Sabrina and her family following their loss, including how they each processed their emotions differently.
- Challenges within the healthcare system that fail to provide adequate support for those undergoing TFMR.
- Suggestions on improving medical care experiences during such sensitive times, including specialized bereavement care similar to practices in England.
TFMR is often shrouded in silence and taboo, but it’s more common than many realize. Sabrina advocates for open conversation and emotional support that upholds the dignity of those making these tough choices out of deep love for their children.
Our discussion also highlighted how even young children experience loss deeply and need acknowledgment in their grieving process—a powerful reminder not to underestimate our little ones’ emotional worlds.
Sabrina emphasizes breaking generational patterns by openly discussing grief rather than suppressing feelings – an approach shaped in contrast to what she experienced growing up, where losses were dealt with privately behind closed doors.
Remember: Transforming your grief doesn’t require grand gestures; small steps are just as significant.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Silent Sorrow: Understanding and Supporting Termination for Medical Reasons (TFMR)
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR). Today, we delve into this sensitive topic with insights from Sabrina Fletcher, a pregnancy loss doula who has turned her personal pain into a beacon of support for others facing similar heartbreak.
The Unspoken Grief of TFMR
While stillbirth is recognized as an agonizing experience warranting sympathy and support, TFMR is three times more common yet seldom discussed. Parents making the excruciating decision to end a wanted pregnancy due to severe health risks face not only profound sorrow but also societal stigmatization. This lack of understanding can leave bereaved parents feeling isolated in their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher knows this all too well. Her journey through TFMR led her to become an advocate and guide for those walking this lonely path. Through peer support, one-on-one sessions, workshops—and now our conversation on Grieving Voices—Sabrina offers solace by helping parents honor their love for the child they lost while finding light amidst darkness.
From Personal Loss to Providing Support
The taboo surrounding TFMR means many do not receive the compassionate care they desperately need—a reality Sabrina experienced firsthand when she had to make that impossible choice between her own health and her pregnancy. However, instead of succumbing to despair, she channeled her anguish into action.
Recognizing the void in supportive services during such losses inspired Sabrina’s mission: creating spaces free from judgment where individuals could share their unique stories of grief whether it be from pregnancy loss or other life-altering experiences like suicide or long-term caregiving.
Adapting Grief Support in Times of Crisis
When COVID-19 struck, it compelled many services—including grief support—to transition online. Although initially unplanned, virtual platforms have proven invaluable by fostering international communities united by shared experiences without geographical boundaries.
On these platforms like Instagram and Facebook groups created by Sabrina herself; people found comfort knowing they were not alone regardless if they were seeking help after losing someone close or grappling with anticipatory grief—the emotional suffering felt before an impending loss occurs.
A Framework For Healing
During our discussion on Grieving Voices podcast episode featuring Victoria V. Sabrina shared a practical approach she uses with clients navigating their mourning process:
1. **Acknowledge:** First comes recognizing physical manifestations associated with bereavement without rushing to interpret them.
2. **Assign:** Once ready emotionally; pinpointing specific feelings linked with these bodily sensations allows individuals clarity regarding their internal state.
3. **Align:** Finally taking steps towards healing whether through acts self-care or external efforts such as advocacy based upon acknowledged emotions provides direction amidst confusion brought about by sorrowful events.
This framework isn’t just theory—it’s been lived out through actions like therapy sessions community engagement daily check-ins friends going through similar situations—all contributing toward managing complex emotions following another pregnancy post-loss period fraught fear joy alike intertwining unpredictably within expectant parents’ hearts minds alike.
Transformative Power Compassion Action
Perhaps most importantly what resonates throughout conversations resources provided via platforms like [thetfmrddoula. com](http://thetfmrddoula.com) is notion transformative power compassion action hold when dealing kinds tragedies. No gesture is too small nor any step insignificant When comes to transforming raw painful emotions something meaningful tangible both individual collective level. Every story every voice adds richness tapestry human resilience empathy growth In closing let us remember words echoed Victoria herself “Treat me gently you would any grieving parent” encapsulating core message extending kindness understanding everyone traversing difficult terrain loss Remember open your heart truly transform your life. Much love
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:32
Thank you for tuning to grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria V. And today my guest is Sabrina Fletcher. She guides bereaved parents through the heartbreak of losing a wanted pregnancy to a termination for medical reasons or also known as TFMR with groups 1 on 1 and workshops. As a pregnancy loss doula who’s been there herself, She companions people as they find the light in their stories and self-expression and the deep love they carry for their babies.
Victoria Volk
00:00:32 – 00:01:25
Thank you so much for being open enough to share about this on my podcast today. I was excited to hear about this because I, you know, you even said that it’s, 3 times more common than stillbirth,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:00:40 – 00:00:40
uh-hummm..
Victoria Volk
00:00:40 – 00:01:18
which was a surprising statistic to me because, I mean, I’d heard that yes, people can, you know, terminate a pregnancy because of medical reasons, but I didn’t realize there was like, an acronym for it
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:18 – 00:01:19
You’re right.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:21
there was an underbelly or undercurrent of, like, taboo or, you know
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:21 – 00:01:21
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:01:21 – 00:01:23
about it and this yeah. That so I’m I think it’s a loss that is not talked about, like you said, very much.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:23 – 00:01:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:23 – 00:01:25
I haven’t heard it on I don’t listen to a ton of other grief podcasts just because I kinda wanna stay in my own lane. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:25 – 00:01:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:25 – 00:01:42
I’m excited to share this with my listeners broaden our perspective of grief and, talk about it. So thank you so much for being open to sharing your journey, which brings us to 2018. And do you mind starting there?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:43 – 00:02:05
Sure. Thank you so much, Victoria. And thank you for having me on to talk about this piece of pregnancy loss that is silenced and shamed. And in some spaces, it’s becoming a little bit more openly spoken about, and I think that as more people speak about it, more people understand. Oh, okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:05 – 00:02:16
Yes. This is another type of pregnancy loss. That is what if they went through it themselves. That is what I really experienced. And like you said, I went through it myself in 2018.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:16 – 00:02:53
It was early 2018 and we had a bad ultrasound result where we could see and the doctor was showing us the different abnormalities and what was wrong with our baby. And one of the conditions there were various things that were showing up. One of the conditions was swelling in the head and the chest and the back of the neck. And since it was pretty much all over the body and the torso, he was calling it hydrops. So that’s just the name for fetal swelling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:55 – 00:03:32
And that along with other things, you know, we went home and I was researching, and I also found out and he told me at that ultrasound. He said you know, if you decide to continue the pregnancy, this is now a high-risk pregnancy, but I didn’t really know the extent of that. I found out that high drops can cause similar swelling in the pregnant person and they call it mirror syndrome. So it could have caused harm to my organs as well. It’s just very devastating because this was a wanted baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:32 – 00:03:49
I took this whole fertility course. I was tracking my cycles. I knew my ovulation date. We wanted her in our family, but then when we found out she was sick and also the condition that she was carrying could have harmed my health. We did decide to terminate the pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:03:51 – 00:03:56
And you had another child. You have already had one child. Correct? Or did I read that?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:56 – 00:04:02
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. So my oldest daughter was 4 years old at the time.
Victoria Volk
00:04:03 – 00:04:14
And so just a matter of, I mean, trying to put this in perspective for people listening, you still have to function on the day-to-day and care for a 4-year-old.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:15 – 00:04:15
Yeah. Function.
Victoria Volk
00:04:16 – 00:04:18
Right? After receiving this news.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:18 – 00:04:18
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:04:18 – 00:04:28
And how did you like? How do you what did those early days and weeks looked like? And then how long did it take you to come? Like, how long did you give yourself to
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:29 – 00:04:30
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:30 – 00:04:35
come to that decision? And was your husband also on board right off the right out of the gate too?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:35 – 00:04:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:36 – 00:04:40
Because you were maybe sometimes that could be a conflict for some relationships.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:41 – 00:05:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t an easy decision. I mean, it ended up being clear after we did enough research and talked to the doctors and I was looking at different medical journals and all the research that I could get my hands on that wasn’t behind a paywall, you know, because I’m not a medical researcher myself. I don’t I don’t have all of those subscriptions. So what what I could find and what I could see, and also finding other people’s stories online, it led me to see that this is also a compassionate choice to decide to induce early really, and help her pass peacefully instead of coming to term, going to term, or possibly not even making it that far and would she die in utero, or would we have to have some crazy it’s not even a c section.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:05:35 – 00:06:09
It’s called a exit strategy where they, like, take everything out all at once. And, you know, it’s very hard on both the baby and the and the pregnant person and and she was already sick. So, you know, could she get through that kind of medical trauma to even then be, you know, with all the tubes and all the life support and everything, and then how long or you know, or would I hold her in my arms as she died? You know, there there’s really no right way to go about it because there are people in my community. I went on to become a pregnancy loss doula.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:10 – 00:06:39
I’ve always wanted to be a doula. But then when this happened to me, I realized, oh, this is the place in birth that I really want to focus on. I really want to support people who are going through this. And some of those families in one pregnancy, like, maybe they carried some sort of genetic something, disposition or disorder, whatever you would like to call it. And maybe some of their children do carry it or maybe they do bring some pregnancies to term and, you know, their babies die in their arms.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:39 – 00:07:06
And then in another pregnancy, they decide to terminate. There’s really there’s no there’s no right there’s no right way. It’s just whatever feels best for you and your family in that moment. And that’s how we made our decision. We just felt like that was the best for this baby, for my body, and the fact that we already had a living daughter that we were also taking care of.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:06 – 00:07:17
And there’s also another grief story in our family. My husband lost his mom when he was about 6 years old. And so he was like, woah. No. No.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:17 – 00:07:32
We cannot lose you. You have to be here for our older daughter. So that really became a big part of the decision as well. It wasn’t overnight. You know, it took us a few days, but we were also up against a crunch.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:32 – 00:08:00
So, with the restrictive laws to have an abortion, no questions asked, we had a week. So we didn’t really have that much time to decide. So we had to make this decision very quickly. I do feel like there are pieces of my decision that were taken from me. I wasn’t really given all of there wasn’t enough time to get all the information that I would have liked to get.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:01 – 00:08:19
You know, I would have liked to have an amniocentesis, but we were only 13 weeks along at that point. And you have to wait till 16, 18 weeks. And, I did ask the doctor, you know, when he was telling us all the bad news about an amniocentesis. It could have came back clear too. So that’s the thing.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:19 – 00:08:35
Like, we were already seeing how sick she was. But you know, it is good to know all of the medical information before making, you know, a drastic medical decision like this. So it’s really very very awful.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:08:40
I’m just thinking about like someone who’s having to go through this and make this decision or decides to make this decision. And yet, you know when you often think about when we hear the word abortion, right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:40 – 00:08:40
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:08:41 – 00:09:10
we hear the child does not they don’t want the child. Right? It’s for whatever reason, whatever the circumstances, like they choose that they’re, they’re not, it’s not a good time for them for whatever reason. We don’t think that someone who’s sitting in the waiting room is there because they really want the baby
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:10 – 00:09:10
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:10 – 00:09:12
and there’s a medical reason why they’re there or, you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:12 – 00:09:12
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:09:12 – 00:09:13
a circumstance like yourself.
Victoria Volk
00:09:13 – 00:09:25
And I think that’s a really miscarriage. That’s a miscarriage of grief. And it also is for the person who is choosing that for themselves, because I mean like it or not, there is going to be grief there involved.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:25 – 00:09:25
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:2 – 00:09:40
You know? Even if it’s not, you know, felt the full weight of it in the moment, even years later, I have no doubts that there are women that experienced grief for many years later.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:40 – 00:10:05
Mhmm. But Yeah. I definitely agree. And after going through this experience myself and having an abortion for reasons that were just so filled with love and compassion, And I never been through what I guess we could call a a lifestyle abortion but I kind of had those misconceptions too. It’s like, oh, it just means they just they don’t want this baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:05 – 00:10:23
Like, this isn’t a wanted baby. But I realized, I think all of those decisions are made with the greatest amount of love and respect as well. It’s like, I don’t want this life for this child. There’s still so much love in that decision. Or like, I can’t do this to a child right now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:23 – 00:10:38
Like, that’s so much love. So, so much love. And, yes, you’re right. Of course, there will be grief there. Many people do experience grief with these decisions, whether it’s for medical reasons, whether it’s for lifestyle reasons.
Victoria Volk
00:10:39 – 00:10:51
What do you wish would have been different about that experience and what do you think needs to change in how women are supported
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:48 – 00:10:48
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:10:49 – 00:10:51
In the medical setting in particular.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:51 – 00:11:19
Yeah. Yeah. So there are some people who I like to look to England. They have a pretty good system set up when it’s going to be an abortion for medical reasons, for fetal anomaly, or the pregnant person’s health, they’re earmarked in a certain direction, and they end up going with bereavement midwives. So these are midwives who are grief-informed, hopefully, trauma informed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:11:20 – 00:11:59
They, you know, they see the family. They see the baby as a baby. They see it as palliative hospice care, which it really is. It’s it’s end-of-life care for that baby and for or to help the the mother or the pregnant person, you know not die. And they help people to get footprints or like, make a scrapbook or you know, they’ll bring in a chaplain or they’ll help you with the funeral arrangements.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:00 – 00:12:18
You know, it’s a it’s a death of a family member. And I think it’s that piece that was missing in my experience. Because of the laws, I ended up going to an abortion clinic, which put me in the box of lifestyle abortion. My husband was there with me, and we had so many tears and we asked for a private room. They said, oh, no.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:18 – 00:12:39
We don’t do that thing. We were asking for these things that other people get in some places. And in some hospitals worldwide, they will do this sort of bereavement care where they have a special room that’s on another floor, so you don’t hear the laboring women and then babies crying. We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a special extra room.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:39 – 00:13:03
We didn’t have a bereavement midwife. We didn’t have someone informed in grief. We didn’t have anyone saying, I’m sorry for your loss. They’re really very simple, compassionate things that I wish I would have had. The doctor who helped us, did understand our whole situation, and he did say, I’m, you know, I’m so sorry for your loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:03 – 00:13:37
So that meant so much. You know? It’s just those few words, like really seeing us as bereaved parents. And I asked for footprints and he was able to get them. So some pieces of my story do have some respect and honor and reverence in it, but a lot of it I mean, the counselor that they had on hand, I kept talking about grief and, like, asking for grief resources, and she was like, I don’t really know.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:40 – 00:13:59
And I thought, oh, you know, I thought, like, I can’t be the only one who’s coming here because their baby is sick and they’re grieving and they’re having to end a wanted pregnancy. But I guess maybe I was or I don’t know. So those are the things that I wish would have been different in my story.
Victoria Volk
00:13:59 – 00:14:00
Well, you know now that you weren’t because it’s more common than
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:00 – 00:14:00
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:14:01 – 00:14:06
3 times more common than stillbirth and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:06 – 00:14:08
Amazing.
Speaker 1
00:14:08 – 00:14:13
And I’m sure do you have a statistic, like a more recent recent statistic as far as how common this is overall?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:15 – 00:14:35
Oh, that’s that’s the most recent one. So that’s some research that came out of Europe, I think, combined with England because they do earmark these cases. They do have, like, specific categories. So they’re they are able to see, okay, this termination is a early induction. This termination is a pregnancy loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:37 – 00:15:00
And that research, yeah, came out of Europe a a few years ago. And they found that with the numbers that they have in Europe and England, these countries combined, the number of stillbirths are so many, and then the number of TFMR pregnancy loss, are 3 times as many as that number.
Victoria Volk
00:15:01 – 00:15:12
Do you know of any places in the United States that are implementing some sort of like what you just described for women going through this?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:13 – 00:15:40
Yes. Some of the better stories that I hear are coming out of some places in the US. I’ve heard some really good stories out of Washington DC and then other big hospitals across the nation. But they’re the bigger the bigger hospitals maybe who see more of these cases, and I think it’s really prior patients like me
Victoria Volk
00:15:41 – 00:15:41
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:41 – 00:15:46
Writing in or calling in or speaking up after and saying, why didn’t this happen?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:46 – 00:15:55
Or I read this story, and they got this kind of care. And why didn’t we have that? And I really believe that that’s why they get better care now.
Victoria Volk
00:15:56 – 00:16:20
There’s an organization called death with dignity, dying with dignity, 1 or the other. And, but their whole goal is to push legislation across the country in the United States for basically to die with for people to have the ability to die with dignity. And there’s a whole lot of things that go into that. But, I can see something like that being applied in this manner
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:20 – 00:16:20
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:21 – 00:16:40
for the situation, like for legislation to be put into place that requires hospitals and medical care staff and maybe even perhaps, you know, and I think it’s almost gonna take 1 like, lone ranger to blaze the trail and create some sort of independent facility. And then you know how it can kind of snowball from there
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:41 – 00:16:41
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:42 – 00:16:59
where women feel, more supported in that decision with all the things that you said that you wish would have been there for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:00 – 00:17:00
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:17:00 – 00:17:20
And on that note, I mean, grief is the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different, better, or more. And so how did you and your husband together and independently kind of work through that loss? And your daughter. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:21 – 00:17:22
Mmm. My daughter.
Victoria Volk
00:17:22 – 00:17:24
Or she had an awareness of you know, by the age of 3, we’ve already learned how to respond to most of life
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:25 – 00:17:25
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:17:25 – 00:17:26
already by 3.
Victoria Volk
00:17:26 – 00:17:28
So can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:29 – 00:18:08
So as a family and her my husband, and myself, we all went on our unique grief journeys. Some of it was together. We had a memorial service for her, and my daughter was there. I wanted her to take part. I wanted there to be, you know, some sort of symbolic recognition that, yes, a family member died in our family and, you know, this was your sibling and it’s okay to talk about it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:08 – 00:18:19
It’s okay to bring it up. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to make art about it. It’s okay to you know, like, she would draw. I don’t even know where this came from.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:19 – 00:18:39
Like, instinctively, she made these, like, stone funeral Karnes. I think that’s how you say it, where they, like, make these stone mounds, but they’re and her so my husband’s father died 2 weeks before our baby did
Victoria Volk
00:18:39 – 00:18:40
Oh, wow.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:40 – 00:19:01
As well. So there was there was a lot of grief and death awareness happening for her that month and in the months to follow. So I remember she said, this is for a. This is for grandfather. And she had made this stone, corn.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:01 – 00:19:25
And then she said, and this is for my sister. This is for Clara. And she had made kind of a smaller stone and brick structure. And she had placed them like right in front of both sides of our front door.
Victoria Volk
00:19:25 – 00:19:25
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:26 – 00:19:28
My husband, I saw him really throw himself into work, so he chose the, like stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:28 – 00:19:53
And, also, life is really short, so I really wanna provide for my family. I really want us to be okay. I see my wife really sub me, you know, really suffering physically and going through all this. So he would work late hours. He would he would listen to me when I wanted to talk about it, but not as much talking maybe more of just needing to stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:54 – 00:20:27
And for me, I think I did pretty much anything I could get my hands on. So I remember looking for a postpartum doula, looking for a grief or some sort of pregnancy loss practitioner to help me through. I did some emails with one of them. I did hire a postpartum doula. They urged me to do all of my creative things or new creative things, so drawing, painting.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:20:27 – 00:21:14
Well, some of those came later, maybe like a year or 2 later. But I did do some photography or even just like, mindless distracting things, like puzzles or little phone games and watching lighthearted TV to help with you know, those moments where it’s just like, oh, I’ve been thinking about this all day and just going over and over and over and over in my head about it. And no thoughts are going to fix these emotions. No thoughts are going to bring her back or help us go back in time and make sure that the egg and the sperm were the perfect quality, and then she wasn’t sick for whatever reason. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:14 – 00:21:38
I couldn’t go back in time to fix those things. I had to feel just a little bit more okay in that moment. I did a lot of sitting in the grass with my shoes off, my feet in the grass. So grounding just and I would just sit there. And then sometimes I would I would do, like, meditative walking, but I was so angry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:38 – 00:22:04
You know, I remember walking around my garden, and I live in Mexico, and the flowers bloom all year around here. And there was this amazing, like, huge red like, bigger than my head, red flower. And I would walk by it, and I would just get so angry. Like, why are you blooming and my baby isn’t here? Like, I’m walking by this beautiful flower, and it’s just in my face, and yet I knew, well, I just need to walk.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:04 – 00:22:13
I need to walk by it. I need to feel this anger. I need to sit with it. But then it would be like, okay. Time to go pick up my daughter.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:14 – 00:22:23
So it was hard to manage, you know, all the time and space that grief asks along with daily tasks.
Victoria Volk
00:22:24 – 00:22:28
Yeah. It’s like the stoneward spiral thought wheel was like you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:29 – 00:22:29
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:58
It’s like a tornado of thoughts, and I can just I was imagining it as you were walking around this flower and just I can feel from you. It’s just so important for people to hear that in those moments like you were you how you were able to just allow yourself to feel the anger. And I think so many people just don’t allow themselves to feel the anger because growing up, you’re taught that anger is wrong. It’s bad.
Victoria Volk
00:22:58 – 00:22:58
And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:58 – 00:23:02
Yeah. Even grief too. Like, push it down. Go to work.
Victoria Volk
00:23:02 – 00:23:06
But it is an element of grief. Anger is grief. Really.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:06 – 00:23:06
It is.
Victoria Volk
00:23:07 – 00:23:12
Did you like for your husband, you know, I meant not talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:23:12 – 00:23:26
And you said he kept himself very busy. Did he, did you see him? Did you view it as a stuffing down or did he find, did he eventually, did he start talking about it more or how did that change for him over time?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:28 – 00:23:48
Mmmm. He would have to come on and share his whole story because it’s pretty intense the way things ended up showing up for him quite later. But I guess I could say, eventually, he had some therapy, and I think that helped. So he was able to talk.
Victoria Volk
00:23:48 – 00:23:48
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:49- 00:23:54
And he’s also, a sweat lodge.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:55 – 00:23:58
He runs a sweat lodge,
Victoria Volk
00:23:58 – 00:23:58
Oh
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:59 – 00:24:09
He runs a sweat lodge,
and he has a spa. And so he works with crystals and massage. And so he so his work, I think even going to work and helping others
Victoria Volk
00:24:09 – 00:24:09
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:10 – 00:24:14
Or sometimes they’ll, like, trade massage. So he was also working through things at work.
Victoria Volk
00:24:14 – 00:24:15
Yeah. I can see that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:15 – 00:24:23
And he would go and he would go in the sweat lodge. He also sings. So he has his outlets. They’re just different than mine. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:24 – 00:24:28
Mhmm. And honoring that for each other. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
But like you said, he was able to he would listen to you and that’s sometimes all you need really is someone to just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:30 – 00:24:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:31 – 00:24:43
try and fix, just listen. And so I’m glad he was in that line of work because that probably actually is what helped him find his way eventually to therapy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:43 – 00:24:45
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:45 – 00:25:27
I was gonna ask too the question I had thought of earlier and then forgot. So growing up, what was, what were the messages? Because I how you articulated when your daughter was going through this, when you lost your baby, and then you’re talking about how it was important for you, for her, that she recognized grief and you had a lot of grief going on at the time, but how to allow her to channel it and honor her feelings and things like that. So what were what was your experience with grief growing up in the beliefs that you had about loss and like because in, you know, especially in my area, like German
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:28 – 00:25:30
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:25:30 – 00:25:34
Like or talk about our grief and what happens in the house?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:34 – 00:25:47
Yeah, stiff upper lip and all that and like, You know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and carry on. No. That’s definitely my lineage as well.
Victoria Volk
00:25:48 – 00:25:48
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:50 – 00:26:31
And I understand more now about what I experienced with grief than when it was actually going on. There really weren’t any close deaths until my grandmother died when I was yeah, I was already in my twenties. But she had a brother who died in World War 2. And, I mean, that would have been so many years ago, but my mother told me that on certain days you know, I don’t know what days. Now I imagine, oh, it was probably his birthday.
Victoria Volk
00:25:26 – 00:26:31
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:31 – 00:26:52
Or it could have been some milestone that her children were reaching and her brother wasn’t there to see it. Maybe it was even her own birthday. You know, the passing of time is really hard, especially since he would have died so young, like a very young man. And then here she was, like, living a full long life, and he’s not there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:52 – 00:27:22
Well, my mom would say you know, she would go in her room and cry. So in a way, you know, behind closed doors That’s my grief legacy. So why I decided to be so open and why I felt like it was so important? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a reaction to that like, seeing how it was so closed and not really talked about and like, get on with your life and just move along.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:23 – 00:27:30
I felt like it was important to talk about it and be open about it. And I saw my daughter hurting. I didn’t I didn’t want to just say, oh, just go to school. That didn’t feel right to me.
Victoria Volk
00:27:30 – 00:27:30
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:31 – 00:27:37
You know, just get back to school.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:37 – 00:27:48
Just throw yourself into your schoolwork. I never said anything like that to her. So maybe it’s a reaction to what I grew up with and felt like it wasn’t enough.
Victoria Volk
00:27:49 – 00:27:57
After all the people I’ve talked to, the 4 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I am like almost 190 episodes. Not all.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:57 – 00:27:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:27:58 – 00:28:18
So not all not all interviews, but I think there’s 2 camps of people. And like you just said, I think there’s people that grow up and learn these things about grief that are unhelpful and hurtful and self-sabotaging. And they see that contrast when they’re met with something in their lives.
Victoria Volk
00:28:18 – 00:28:29
And they remember that contrast of that experience. Like, we didn’t talk about it. And I felt shamed for or you know, if you have feel shame for bringing up the person’s name
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:29 – 00:28:29
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:28:30 – 00:28:40
because, you know, it makes other people uncomfortable or angry or sad or whatever it is. So there’s no room for your feelings. You know, you can grow up that way with no, there’s no room.
Victoria Volk
00:28:40 – 00:28:54
So then you step down and you don’t talk about it. Right? And then that continues through generations. And that’s what happens. But sometimes there’s camps of people, though, the other camp that sees that contrast and breaks that cycle.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:55 – 00:28:55
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:28:56 – 00:29:17
So congratulations on doing that because you teach your daughter how to respond to grief by how you respond to grief. And I think that’s the message that I want to get across and why I started this podcast is because I’m a child griever.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:17 – 00:29:17
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:18 – 00:29:21
My dad died when I was young, and there was like,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:23 – 00:29:27
yeah, it’s like resources. No talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:29:27 – 00:29:30
Yep. Or well, in my case,
Victoria Volk
00:29:30 – 00:29:35
it was there was a lot of talking about it from my mother. Of course, she lost her husband, but just no room for me.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:35 – 00:29:35
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:36 – 00:29:48
That’s what I was getting at is that even though it is talked about yet, it’s not where you feel you can share. Like, you can’t share.
Victoria Volk
00:29:49 – 00:29:57
There’s no open sharing. And that’s there’s all kinds of family dynamics and how that plays out and different scenarios and circumstances. And we could sit here all day long about all of those. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:57 – 00:30:02
Oh, yeah. I’ve been the stories about that too. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:03 – 00:30:16
Condenses down to either you learn these things and you continue that pattern onto your kids or you break that cycle because you see the importance of what you would have wanted for yourself and then create that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:16 – 00:30:17
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:17
for your children
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:32
for the legacy that follows behind. So that’s I think that’s a very important takeaway for people listening to this, who have children who are going through grieving experiences too, because like you said, it’s she lost her sister too, even though she was 4
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:32 – 00:30:32
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:30:32 – 00:30:43
years old. And it’s very easy for parents to assume that, oh, they’re so little. They don’t understand. Anyway, I was 8 and people were saying that I see 8 year olds now. And I’m like, wow.
Victoria Volk
00:30:43 – 00:30:52
Like, I don’t know if I was that articulate or that I was that smart, but I would hope I was., Like, 8 year olds understand. Come on. Like, really?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:52 – 00:30:53
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:53 – 00:31:54
And so do 4 year olds. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:55 – 00:30:55
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:55 – 00:31:02
Thank you for sharing in that as much as you did because I think it’s important for people to hear. No matter the loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:03 – 00:31:30
Thank you. Thank you, Victoria. Yeah. I even said to my daughter a couple days ago, I just said, I really appreciate how you opened up to me and what you shared about, you know, your sadness. And, you know, when Clara we named her Clara when Clara died and how we went through that together.
Victoria Volk
00:31:31 – 00:31:35
And in the work that you’re doing today, you can share that experience with people too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:35 – 00:31:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:31:35 – 00:31:54
If they have other children that are experiencing that loss as the fam, you know, with along with the family unit. And so, or when did you start doing the work that you’re doing? Because the loss happened in 2018, but when did you finally feel ready to, support others?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:56 – 00:31:59
Mmm. So, symbolically, I feel like I started while I was in the recovery chair.
Victoria Volk
00:31:59 – 00:32:01
Mmm. Like many people do.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:01 – 00:32:19
You know, after I had had my I guess we could call it a d and c, And I was like, where’s my doula? Like, there’s no one here saying, how are you feeling? Or I’m sitting here beside you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:19 – 00:32:32
Can I hold your hand? Would you like water? Something like that. You know, just those simple, caring things that we need, especially in very early grief. And with pregnancy loss, it’s a grief through your body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:32 – 00:33:00
So there’s, like, the physical recovery that needs to happen. So I was thinking, where is she? And then I realized I’m going to be her. That’s what I wanna do. And then I also realized, and I need to go through my own healing process first so that I can fully show up for other people from a healed place.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:02 – 00:33:40
So it was mid 2020, the fall of 2020. By the time I created an Instagram account, the TFMR doula, and just started bringing people together. And we would, you know, talk in stories or in the comments and making connections with other pregnancy loss spaces. And then I created a Facebook group for us to go a little bit deeper and have more conversations in a place where no one else is coming in and being like, well, I wouldn’t have made that choice. It’s like, thank you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:40 – 00:33:41
That’s unhelpful.
Victoria Volk
00:33:41 – 00:33:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:42 – 00:34:18
You know, just like people who their loved one has died by suicide, you know, they deserve to have a special space there because there’s certain layers that only they will be going through. Or if they’ve been a long-term caregiver for Alzheimer’s or cancer or something, and then their loved loved one dies. You know? They have all that anticipatory grief years to to talk about and being in groups where where people just understand, you know, the hardships and the things that other people say to you when you’re going through all of this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:18 – 00:34:34
It’s good to have those specific places for people who have been through it with other people who have been through. I mean, I can’t say exactly. All of our cases are unique, but, yeah, exactly that type of loss.
Victoria Volk
00:34:34 – 00:34:34
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:35 – 00:34:37
And that was, like, during COVID started
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:37 – 00:34:39
It was.
Victoria Volk
00:34:39 – 00:34:40
So how did that, like I mean, there’s grief in that too. Like, you just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:40 – 00:34:40
Oh,
Victoria Volk
00:34:41 – 00:34:7
so much. Thing. I know. I started my business doing grief work and stuff 2019,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:47 – 00:34:47
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:48 – 00:34:49
early 2019.
Victoria Volk
00:34:49 – 00:35:14
And I gained so much momentum. And I was doing in person talks and things like that and doing in person groups. And then COVID hit, and it’s like but that’s when I took, you know, the opportunity to just get a lot more training and certifications online and just build my toolbox. And so that’s what I did during that time. But what it how did you kind of deal with that?
Victoria Volk
00:35:14 – 00:35:24
Because there’s this thing here. You just birthed out, and then it’s like, oh, I mean, no pun intended. That was a terrible pun. Like, that I’m sorry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:25 – 00:35:25
Oh, gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:35:25 – 00:35:26
I just thought that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:26 – 00:35:28
But yeah. No. But it’s a birth. Right? It is.
Speaker 2
00:35:28 – 00:35:31
It’s a Mother. Yeah. It’s birth from love. Right? Because you you birthed
Victoria Volk
00:35:31 – 00:35:33
it out of your experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:33 – 00:35:35
So It is. It is.
Victoria Volk
00:35:36 – 00:35:36
Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:36 – 00:35:45
It is. And so I was unable to do the in person pregnancy loss doula work that I wanted to.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:45 – 00:36:19
You know, I really wanted to be the sit by your side in that recovery chair and hold your hand and say, yeah. It’s okay to cry because you’re a bereaved mother and all the things that I needed to hear. And I also knew that I wanted to do the bulk of my support services online, So I already knew that I wanted most of it to be virtual. Like, the big community aspect of it, I always had in mind that it was going to be virtual. So whenever when everything went virtual, it helped in a way because then other people were open to receiving support in virtual ways.
Victoria Volk
00:36:21 – 00:36:24
That’s true. Yeah. That’s a good point.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:25 – 00:36:35
But that was that was my specific situation where I always knew I wanted, you know, most of it to be virtual so that we can meet internationally. Right.
Victoria Volk
00:36:35 – 00:36:39
It’s more accessible. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:39 – 00:36:39
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:40 – 00:37:01
And that’s the thing I think that came out of COVID is that so many of these resources that exist today are because the virtual and people are more open to that because that is the way of the world now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:58 – 00:36:58
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:58 – 00:37:01
So there’s more availability, but there’s also, like you said, more buy in where people are more apt to give it a chance and see if it’ll work for them.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:01 – 00:37:12
Yeah. So when I started doing live workshops or like little support groups and it was on Zoom, I knew that people already had that program at least.
Victoria Volk
00:37:12 – 00:37:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:13 – 00:37:16
They were familiar with it, so I could just say Zoom. I didn’t need to explain what it was.
Victoria Volk
00:37:16 – 00:37:16
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:16 – 00:37:53
Because before 2020, anything that was online, if you weren’t already like an online entrepreneur or something, you didn’t know all of these programs and the terms and the things. But now, we’ve all been educated on doing it all online, which it can get exhausting too in some sense. And now that, you know, COVID is not at its height, we do wanna do in-person annual retreats as well because it is important to meet. It is important to get those hugs.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:53 – 00:38:18
It is important to, you know, see people face to face. And I wanna have those experiences too, where we can really see I’m really not alone in this. Here’s another flesh and blood person who has made this choice, who loves their baby deeply, who is grieving just as deeply as I am. And here we are sitting together.
Victoria Volk
00:38:19 – 00:38:20
And in Mexico. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:20 – 00:38:28
Yes. I mean, great. So come and come and get some sun. Come and spray. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:28 – 00:38:34
We we may end up doing the next one in in the US, though, because a lot of my community members are in the US.
Victoria Volk
00:38:36 – 00:38:53
So what were some of the ways I mean, I know that there was a lot that wasn’t there for you, but what were some of the ways that other people supported you that you found helpful, most helpful during that time and either for your daughter or for your husband or for yourself or as a family? Like, what would you share with people?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:54 – 00:39:13
For myself, the biggest resource, the most helpful resource was a another Facebook group. And they were the inspiration for me creating my own as well. And they and they’re still functioning. They’re a great community. They’re called ending a wanted pregnancy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:14 – 00:39:41
I think it’s just ending a wanted pregnancy dot com. And you go through this application process, and then you’re in the Facebook group with only other people who have been through it or their immediate partners. You know, there are no health professionals who just wanna know how to help other people. There are no grandparents or siblings who you know, wanna like, look in.
Victoria Volk
00:39:42 – 00:39:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:42 – 00:39:44
It’s completely closed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:44 – 00:40:08
And so because I knew that that community was so highly screened and closed and I think even secret. So at that time, Facebook had secret groups. They’ve changed their settings. It’s something else. I mean, it still kind of exists in that way where no one else on your friend on your friend list can see that you’re in this group.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:08 – 00:40:23
No one else can even, like, search for it and see, like, who the members are. It’s unsearchable. It’s secret. So I knew this was a safe place. I was able to bring all of these emotions and feelings that I couldn’t talk to anybody else.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:23 – 00:40:59
I had a place to bring it to, and I could read what other people were feeling and thinking and going through and struggling with and ways that they were honoring their babies and you know, how they were taking part in broad pregnancy loss spaces as well. And I remember thinking, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can help myself in that way too. Oh, I can honor my baby in that way. So that was a really beautiful experience finding that group and taking part.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:59 – 00:41:15
You know, I’ve made amazing friendships through people in that group. And like I said, they inspired me to open another Facebook group. And since then, we have more. There are more. I mean, not that many, maybe like a dozen.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:15 – 00:41:34
But more than at the time when I went through it, it was basically just that group and maybe some anonymous forum that was visible to the public on baby center at that time. Now people tend to go to Reddit for that sort of anonymous experience, which has its place too.
Victoria Volk
00:41:36 – 00:41:42
Would you mind sharing your Facebook page, what it’s called? Can is it searchable, or is yours also private and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:42 – 00:41:59
Well, it my mine is searchable, but it’s closed. No one can see that you’re in it. But I do also do a application process. So it’s on my website, thetfmrdoula.com/facebookgroup. All one word.
Victoria Volk
00:42:01 – 00:42:04
And I will put the link to that in the show notes as well.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:04 – 00:42:13
Thank you. Yeah. It’s it’s a a wonderful space. And it’s a community space. You know, I started it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:13 – 00:42:34
I run it. I facilitate. I facilitate the space for people to come and share their stories and give and get support and ask the questions that they can’t ask anywhere else because other people just say, oh, well, just be grateful that you have 2 other living kids
Victoria Volk
00:42:35 – 00:42:35
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:35 – 00:42:39
Or like, you’ll get pregnant again. It’s like, what? Like, can you imagine?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:39 – 00:42:47
Well, you’ll get married again. Or, like, you still have your mom. You don’t need your dad. Like, okay. The things that people say.
Victoria Volk
00:42:49 – 00:43:55
Without thinking. Really. I mean, like, if you say it back to them like, did you I mean, just let me say that back to you out loud so you can hear it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:56 – 00:42:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:42:56 – 00:43:00
Does that sound okay?
Victoria Volk
00:43:01 – 00:43:09
I mean, what’s what about that sounds okay? It’s almost like, you know, I’m I, I just developed a pet loss program.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:10 – 00:42:10
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:10 – 00:43:17
And, it’s not launched yet, but it’s it’s like people so commonly especially with pets, like, you can just get another pet. And it’s like, okay. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:17 – 00:43:20
Well, yeah, you can, and it’s not that pet that you
Victoria Volk
00:43:21 – 00:43:25
Right. It’s like people don’t say that too, like, when your grand when your mom dies.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:25 – 00:43:25
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:43:26 – 00:43:28
Well, you can just get a mom. Just get another mom. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:28 – 00:43:31
Just get another one.
Victoria Volk
00:43:31 – 00:43:32
It’s, yeah, it’s one of the myths
Victoria Volk
00:43:32 – 00:43:33
of grief is replace the loss and,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:34 – 00:43:34
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:43:34 – 00:43:42
You know, it’s one of those things we all learn to do. Right? We learn how to acquire things and people, not what to do when we lose them. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:42 – 00:43:45
Oh, that’s a really good quote, Victoria.
Victoria Volk
00:43:45 – 00:43:50
It is. It is. There was something on you I was gonna ask you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:50 – 00:43:51
Sure.
Victoria Volk
00:43:51 – 00:43:56
What advice to other grievers desiring to create meaning from their grief?
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:12
And, you know, when I say create meaning that can that kind of rubs some people the wrong way. Like you have to create meaning, you have to do something big, but you don’t. It it’s I think it, I think a part of creating meaning or finding meaning, not that everything happens for a reason. Like, sometimes
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:12 – 00:44:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:13 – 00:44:17
that can ruffle people’s feathers too. Rightfully so.
Victoria Volk
00:44:17 – 00:44:42
Acceptance is a huge part of creating meaning. Personally, I think that you know, once you get to that place of acceptance of like, you can’t change the past, right? You can’t, but you can, you have a choice in how you transmute the emotions and the feelings that you experienced and move forward. And you’ve done that in a very beautiful way and enough service to others. And not everybody has to, you know, take on something like that.
Victoria Volk
00:44:42 – 00:44:42
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:42 – 00:44:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:43 – 00:44:45
And not everybody is capable of that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:45 – 00:44:45
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:46 – 00:44:59
Like, you know, it’s a it’s not a burden. And that’s the thing I think where people shy away from seeking help to is they don’t want to be a burden to other people. And that’s a lot of what keeps people isolated in their grief.
Victoria Volk
00:44:59 – 00:45:13
But I’ll get to the question here. But what advice would you give to others who desire to do something like you have done? And maybe a different way, but just do something with their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:14 – 00:45:32
Mmm. Yeah. I like to talk about not thinking of it as, like, look for the what do we call it in the cloud? The silver lining. You know, we’re not looking for you know, there’s no silver lining in my baby dying in such a horrendous taboo way. There’s no silver lining there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:33 – 00:46:21
There just isn’t. And I like to think of well, I have this little mini framework that I share with my clients and that I need to share with my community on a whole. It’s like this cycle of holding and honoring our emotions. And I think this can help people get to this place where they’re even doing tiny things that can help. And it may help them, you know, create meaning, find meaning, or it may help them, you know, just that day feel a little bit closer or feel more connected to their baby or even feel more connected to themselves or feel just a little bit more calm in the storm of grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:22 – 00:46:28
There are 3 steps, but they go around and around. You know? Just like grief is a cycle. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:46:28 – 00:46:30
Just like you did a lot of meditation around the flower. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:30 – 00:46:42
Yeah. Yeah. We just go around. We go around, and then we come back to the same place, but we have a little bit more knowledge this time, and we’re gonna go a little bit deeper. It might be even more like a spiral too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:42 – 00:46:46
Although, you know, I don’t want you to spiral out. Not that sort of spiral.
Victoria Volk
00:46:46 – 00:46:47
In a good way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:48 – 00:47:19
Yeah. Spiraling deeper into the meaning or the love or the connection. So I start with acknowledge, just acknowledging that you’re having this body sensation instead of pushing it away. And also being very very gentle with this stage because I would say, with early grief, it’s very intense. And early grief can be a year, 2 years for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:20 – 00:47:35
So we just take, you know, like, one little sensation like my heart. You know? It’s tight. Just noticing that sensation. And even trying to notice without putting any labels on it yet.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:36 – 00:47:55
Even without saying it’s my heart or it’s this sensation or it’s this name of the thing. We don’t even have to put a label on it. So just acknowledging that it’s there. And I stayed in this place for a really long time. All of those things that I was talking about, like, with my with my feet in the grass, it would just be like, I’m just feeling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:56 – 00:48:26
I’m just feeling, and I’m just you know, it’s just like flowing down into the earth, or I’m I’m walking, and I’m just feeling all of these sensations. And, like, my brain can’t even put a label on it yet, and that’s fine. It’s okay to stay in this acknowledging place for as long as you need to. And then if you feel ready, you can move to the part of the cycle that I like to think of, as a sign. So then you can begin to assign it an emotion name.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:48:26 – 00:49:02
So like I said, like anger, you know, is feeling so angry at the world and life and you know, even mother nature for screwing up my, you know, somewhere in the genetics or the creation or the, you know, the way that she was forming or maybe, you know, there’s something wrong with my own uterus or whatever. I was just so angry at all of those things and just, like, feeling the anger. And it and it’s okay to label it, like anger. You know? I’m feeling the anger.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:02 – 00:49:22
I’m actually feeling this emotion. And then and then if that feels okay, if you’d like to move to the next part of the cycle, I think of this part as a, oh, so we went or assign. Now we’re at align. And you can align in different ways. This is gonna be unique.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:22 – 00:50:01
This is gonna be your own self-care that works for you, whatever you need in that moment or maybe the first tiny step for something bigger that you want to do. You know, a lot of people do advocacy in TFMR. Like, they want to write a letter to their representative and tell their story and say, you know, the laws really hurt me and my family and my baby in this way, and this is what I went through. So maybe when you get to a line, maybe it’s like, okay. I’m gonna take out a piece of paper, or I’m gonna open a blank document on my computer and give it a name, letter to my representative.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:02 – 00:50:31
That could be your align. So it’s doing something for the sensations and the emotions that you’re having, and then we’re gonna transform, transmute. I like to think of transmutation and transformation more than finding meaning because we’re taking these sensations and emotions, and then you can do something with them. Emotion, e motion, it’s movement. It’s it wants to move.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:31 – 00:51:03
It wants to move through you. It wants to move through and even out of you. But we were never taught how. I, at least, I was never taught how. I had to, you know, figure it out on my own through doing it and through, you know, being in a relationship with my husband and like, seeing my own daughter’s grief and then being in these grief communities and being in these TFMR communities and talking to other pregnancy loss parents and seeing the ways that they were aligning.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:03 – 00:51:22
You know? Sometimes I would only see that part of their cycle because that can’t be outward. It can’t be inward. So maybe I was seeing how they were, aligning in a way in their life. And then once we align a little bit, then maybe new sensations come about in the body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:23 – 00:51:44
And so that’s why it’s a cycle. So then you can begin to acknowledge those sensations or those feelings as well. And you can go through the cycle as, you know, we’ll go through it an infinite amount of times in our lifetime if we’re lucky, if we get the time, if we get the chance to do it.
Victoria Volk
00:51:44 – 00:51:57
And the key thing you said there is connecting with ourselves and our emotions are in our body, because it is what you went through and what other women go through in this experience is very much a body experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:58 – 00:51:59
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:04
So it’s connecting back to the body to heal the body from within out.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:04 – 00:52:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:28
I’m curious if because the work your husband does, if you utilize some of those things and have considered or maybe you’ve already done this where you’ve had brought in women who have experienced this into his place of where he works and to experience these tools that he has to help women connect with themselves in that way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:28 – 00:52:31
Oh, it’s definitely going to be a part of the live retreats.
Victoria Volk
00:52:31 – 00:52:32
That’s for sure.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:32 – 00:52:41
For sure. For sure. And I’ve been thinking about well, since I set everything up virtually, I just continue to do everything virtually.
Victoria Volk
00:52:41 – 00:52:41
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:41 – 00:53:19
I don’t have a local group yet, but, there is a midwife in town who would like me to run a group and I would definitely invite them, you know, after, you know, 6 weeks or after a few months of coming to these circles. Maybe we’ll do, you know, a quarterly sweat lodge experience. And my husband actually gets a lot of people who come to him, maybe not right after a loss, but in that time, you’ll understand the time period. About 3 or 4 months out or, like, a year out.
Victoria Volk
00:53:19 – 00:53:19
Mhmm. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:20 – 00:53:39
With a big loss or life transitions, and then they go and they want to really mark that transition with a ritual, which is something that the sweat lodge can help you do or take partaking in a sweat.
Victoria Volk
00:53:41 – 00:53:51
Very cool. I think you’ve got a lot of amazing things brewing and I’m excited to see what, what comes of it for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:52 – 00:53:52
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:53:52- 00:53:55
I am curious. Did you have any more children?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:55 – 00:53:55
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:55- 00:53:56
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:56 – 00:54:23
I was able to get pregnant again after my loss. And I would say that pregnancy is really was the second hardest thing that I’ve done in my life after you know, going through the termination, after going through losing my baby.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:36
That’s why I asked because, it’s like when people wanna replace a dog. Right? It’s like, how do you know you’re ready? And people often just don’t even think about that. They just replace the dog and you’re not replacing the loss by having another child. That’s not what I’m saying. Although people can have that perception.
Victoria Volk
00:54:36 – 00:54:42
Right? Like, you wanna feel better, so you just you can just have another child. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:42 – 00:54:45
That’s what people say. Yeah. The people say that.
Victoria Volk
00:54:45 – 00:54:46
People say that. You can have more kids.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:47 – 00:54:48
Not everyone can.
Victoria Volk
00:54:49 – 00:54:50
Right? Exactly.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:50 – 00:54:52
Exactly. And then
Victoria Volk
00:54:52 – 00:54:55
so the when they say that, they’re making the assumption that, yes, you can too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:56 – 00:54:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:56 – 00:54:57
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:59 – 00:54:59
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:59 – 00:55:02
Like, howdid you know? Like or how did you come to that? And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:02 – 00:55:27
Well, I think of my the loss of my baby as the primary loss, the primary death.
Victoria Volk
00:55:12 – 00:55:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:13 – 00:55:27
There are also other things that were lost. So I lost this vision of having 2 children in my family. I lost this, you know, the hopes and desires to have my oldest daughter not be a only child.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:28 – 00:55:55
I wanted to have, you know, more than one kid. I wanted to have 2 or 3. I guess I do have 3 now in a way. But 2 living and then the one that died. And I knew that it was going to be hard, and the desire to have another child was stronger than the fear.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:56 – 00:56:27
That was when I knew that I was ready to really go back into battle. Most people who go through a termination for medical reasons do develop, like, full-blown PTSD. You know, it’s like going to war. And so if you think of it like we’re warriors who have been to this battle or war and lost. Now we’re being asked to go right back to the same battlefield.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:29 – 00:56:55
You know, it’s the same sensations. Maybe you pull out the same, you know, pregnancy pants. Maybe it’s even, like, the same season. Some people, you know, just the dates, like, all line-up and they’re going to their 12-week scan on March 12th again the next year. So they’re very crazy feelings that you that you go through.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:56 – 00:57:14
Because you’re going through it again. And then the anger too, you feel very I remember being very angry throughout the 1st trimester and thinking, you know, I feel so tired. I feel like crap. You know, I feel like I’m gonna throw up all the time. I already went through this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:15 – 00:57:53
You know? Why do I have to go through this again? And of course, I was so thrilled to be pregnant again and to hopefully, you know, have a baby, have a have another sibling and to hopefully have those experiences that I was dreaming of you know, to have 2 kids or more than 2 kids and to have, like, a bigger family. I mean, it’s not a big family to have 2 kids, but, bigger than 1, bigger than just parenting 1. And I mean, I had EMDR therapist.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:53 – 00:58:23
I had my acupuncturist. I had different doctors. I had the high-risk doctor that I was going to. I had the same doula that I my postpartum doula then became my doula through that pregnancy. In the pregnancy loss spaces, I found, like, specific monthly threads or places where people were talking about being pregnant again after loss or even more specifically being pregnant again after TFMR.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:25 – 00:58:43
I had a really good friend who we would check-in every day. We were like, I don’t know. Our dates, like, lined up we were already in contact, and then we were both trying to conceive, and then we, like both got pregnant probably on, like, the same day. And so, you know, it’s like, here we are in week 1. Now we’re in week 2.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:43 – 00:58:59
We checked in every single day with each other, and it would just be in the morning, I’d be like, oh my gosh. I’m so scared. And I would open, you know, my Messenger app or whatever, and there’s her message saying the same thing. So I didn’t feel so alone.
Victoria Volk
00:58:59 – 00:58:59
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:01 – 00:59:03
That was how I got through that pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:59:04 – 00:59:06
With a lot of support, it sounds like.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:06 – 00:59:15
A lot. I needed a lot of support. I needed all of it, and I really pulled on all of it. And it was really hard on my husband too. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:15 – 00:59:19
We were scared every single day that we would lose her too.
Victoria Volk
00:59:20 – 00:59:21
And what’s her name?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:21 – 00:59:23
Her name is Aya.
Victoria Volk
00:59:23 – 00:59:25
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:25 – 00:59:27
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:59:27 – 00:59:37
It’s like the, what you said, it’s holding on to the both and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:32 – 00:59:32
Uh-huh
Victoria Volk
00:59:32 – 00:59:37
it’s the feelings of fear and an excitement at the same time, enjoy,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:37 – 00:59:37
right
Victoria Volk
00:59:37 – 00:59:42
It’s the both and like, it’s like holding the feelings and the reality at the same time.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:43 – 00:59:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:59:43 – 00:59:53
And that’s a tricky thing to do. And so I thank you for sharing that aspect of your story, because I think it’ll be helpful for people who are going through that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:53 – 01:00:03
Yeah. And I have a monthly thread in my Facebook group too, and I started a monthly live Zoom for us as well.
Victoria Volk
01:00:03 – 01:00:05
Awesome.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:05 – 01:00:19
Mhmm. Because I remember how hard it was. I mean, she’s 4 now, and still even around, even around her birthday I start thinking about you know, everything that we went through just to get to that point.
Victoria Volk
01:00:20 – 01:00:34
On your form, there’s a question I ask. I don’t know if you remember what you answered, but I wanna share it if you don’t remember. But it’s what would you like to scream to the world in the past or recently in which people knew about your grief?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:35 – 01:00:40
Did I write TFMR is pregnancy loss?
Victoria Volk
01:00:38 – 01:00:38
Yes
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:38 – 01:00:40
TFMR is pregnancy yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:40 – 01:00:45
Yes. And then you added something else. You said treat me gently
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:45 – 01:00:47
I don’t read it. Can you read it?
Victoria Volk
01:00:47 – 01:00:50
Yeah. Treat me gently as you would any grieving parent.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:52 – 01:00:55
That’s it. That’s the one.
Victoria Volk
01:00:56 – 01:01:10
I thought that was beautiful. And so I think it’s a great place to tie this episode up with a bow for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:06 – 01:01:06
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
01:01:07 – 01:01:10
Grief is grief, no matter the circumstance. And we all agree that 100%. So treat each other gently.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:11 – 01:01:11
Wonderful.
Victoria Volk
01:01:11 – 01:01:16
Thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else you would like to share though that you didn’t get to?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:18 – 01:02:09
I think I shared what was on my heart today. And maybe one more thing, just if you’re going through this or if you’ve been through this and you’re and you’re just finding the acronym and you’re just finding these places or you’re still looking for support around this type of pregnancy loss, just know that it is out there. And I know it’s really hard, like the onus is on the grieving person to go out and find support in a time where you’re just so exhausted. And it’s so worth it. It’s so worth it to keep searching until you find the space and the people who can really support you because it will make all of the difference in the world.
Victoria Volk
01:02:10 – 01:02:14
And if you’re a helper, sometimes helpers need help too.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:14 – 01:02:15
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:16 – 01:02:18
That’s what I’ve found even personally.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:19 – 01:02:27
Mmm. Oh, yeah. No. I have a lot of therapists, teachers, nurses in my community.
Victoria Volk
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:28 – 01:02:52
Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. And, I look forward to sharing this episode and I will put all the links to what you shared in the show notes for people to quickly and easily find support if they’re needing it. And thank you for listening today. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Emotions, Energy, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Mandy Capehart | The Integration of Grief and Restoration of Self
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this week’s heartfelt episode, we dive into the complexities of grief with my special guest, Mandy Capehart – a trauma-informed certified grief educator and somatic embodiment life coach.
Mandy shares her journey through grief, which led her to establish the Restorative Grief Project, an online community dedicated to supporting grievers and those who stand by them. Her book, “Restorative Grief: Embracing Our Losses Without Losing Ourselves,” is a blend of memoir and practical guidebook that offers insight into managing loss.
We touch on topics like:
- The universality of experiencing loss
- Moving beyond minimizing pain
- Navigating uncertainty in times of sorrow
- How our upbringing shapes our understanding of grief
Mandy also delves into how COVID-19 has highlighted the need for greater ‘grief literacy’ – acknowledging that you don’t need death as a reason to grieve. She emphasizes validating experiences rather than dismissing them and discusses how she uses storytelling as a tool for connection and healing.
Moreover, Mandy opens up about personal losses such as miscarriages, providing raw insights into the emotional turmoil they entail while calling out common misconceptions surrounding them.
This episode is not just about dealing with grief but learning from it, embracing vulnerability, and engaging in deeper conversations instead of hiding behind social niceties or sugarcoated interactions.
This conversation provides solace and guidance for anyone grappling with loss or seeking ways to support others in their grieving process.
Key Takeaway:
Grief isn’t solely triggered by death; it encompasses various forms of personal loss and change. The conversation challenges us to confront cultural tendencies that often minimize these experiences or avoid deep discussions.
Mandy’s insights remind us that grieving is not just an emotional process but one that touches every fiber of our being – physically, mentally, and spiritually.
Your story matters. Your pain deserves recognition. And together, we can find pathways toward restoration.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
Episode Sponsor: Magic Mind | Use the code “GRIEVINGVOICES” to receive one month free with a 3-month subscription. This special promotion is only for January!
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:16
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices., If this is your first time listening, welcome., And if you are returning and listening again, thank you for coming back. Today, my guest is Mandy Capehart. She is a trauma-informed certified grief educator and somatic embodiment life coach.
Victoria Volk
00:00:17 – 00:00:47
She’s an author, speaker, and master mindset coach located in the Pacific Northwest. She is the founder of the Restorative Grief Project, an online community of grievers and grief supporters looking for movement while they heal. Her own experience with grief left her searching for resources while offering empathetic long term support without minimizing the pain of the moment. When she found nothing, she created it for herself and for you. Her first book is Titled Restorative Grief, Embracing Our Losses Without Losing Ourselves was released in 2021.
Victoria Volk
00:00:48 – 00:01:19
And this is a memoir and a 31-day guidebook for managing grief and growth in the aftermath of loss, no matter how long it lasts. You can hear more about her work on her podcast, Restorative Grief with Mandy Capehart, or consider working with her 1 on 1 on her website. She has all the resources and I will put those links in the show notes. And she’s a storyteller through and through and always in pursuit of adventure, grace, and opportunities to express gratitude. No matter the medium, her work revolves around learning how to honor our process of becoming.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:29
She currently lives in Southern Oregon with her husband, daughter, Border Collie Rescue Pup and way too many houseplants. Thank you so much for being here. I too have way too many houseplants. I am told.
Mandy Capehart
00:01:29 – 00:01:43
I know., Right. I mean, I loved houseplants before the pandemic, but it was an easy hobby for me. I think I was up to, like, 95 at one point before I just said, this is a problem. I don’t wanna just let these die, but I also don’t know what to do.
Mandy Capehart
00:01:43 – 00:01:51
And so we’re down to probably a solid 40 now. We’ve recovered. They didn’t die. They were lovingly rehomed, but yeah,
Victoria Volk
00:01:51 – 00:02:05
I have not counted mine, but I know it’s not 40, but I went from like 0 to just kind of like an obsession. I just kept buying and kept buying. Oh, I need another plant. I need another plant.
Mandy Capehart
00:02:05 – 00:02:24
Well, we needed the dopamine. We needed the immediate gratification of something beautiful in our home. We can justify it because plants clarify the air and there are so many collect. It’s like, you know, us elder millennials are, like, barely on the cusp of when Pokemon was, like, practically Introduced. We gotta catch them all.
Mandy Capehart
00:02:24 – 00:02:31
We have to collect every variety of Echeveria that exists. And until then, I will not be satisfied.
Victoria Volk
00:02:32 – 00:02:35
I know it’s like people walk in, welcome to the jungle.
Mandy Capehart
00:02:35 – 00:02:39
Yeah, exactly. It was very, humid in our home for a while.
Victoria Volk
00:02:40 – 00:02:53
I bet. But you know what?, Like you said, it puts oxygen in the air. And when especially living in, like, a rainy climate like yourself or like a snowy cold climate like I where I live and dry. I need all the nature inside.
Mandy Capehart
00:02:53 – 00:02:56
I can get everything I can. Yes. That’s right.
Victoria Volk
00:02:57 – 00:03:18
So we’re not talking about houseplants today. But if we were I’m sure there’s a podcast for that there’s a podcast for everything. That’s right. But today we’re talking about grief, which fortunately for you and I is becoming much more talked about and the work that we were doing. And I think COVID but a huge spotlight on that for everybody.
Victoria Volk
00:03:19 – 00:03:44
Like, hey, nobody has to die for you to grieve. Right? And so I guess let’s, I really want to start out with kind of your origin story as to what led you into the work that you’re doing today, because I know firsthand for myself and everyone that I’ve talked to on this podcast for every guest I’ve had, their work is really born out of their story. So where would you like to begin?
Mandy Capehart
00:03:45 – 00:04:35
Yeah, we’ve got this legacy as wounded healers. And when we get to that
point of recognizing where the needle moved for us, we can start to develop a way to, offer it to others. And so for me, I don’t remember a time in my life that I didn’t have some form of grief event, whether it was a person dying, a person moving away, divorce, relationship loss, illness. There was always something or someone leaving my world, my circle of influence. And so I, as a young person, did what we all do and stuffed it down and became very outwardly loud and big and vivacious and tried to live a very happy, playful life because I didn’t have the tools to navigate the loss I was experiencing.
Mandy Capehart
00:04:35 – 00:05:08
And that’s not to say that my parents didn’t know what they were doing because in a lot of ways they did, but at the same time, they were also very young when they had me. And so as we all experienced these losses together, including their, divorce when I was pretty young, I think I was 9. It doesn’t It just didn’t translate until I was older. And so, instead of giving you a list all the people I’ve lost in stories, I’m just gonna jump ahead because when my mom died in 2016, this month, it’ll be 7 years, I think. That right?
Mandy Capehart
00:05:08 – 00:05:30
Good math. It was pretty sudden. It was after after a few months of cancer treatment and unexpected, illness on top of that. And so I spent the next 4 years quitting everything I knew. I stepped down from being a worship leader of 16 years at my church.
Mandy Capehart
00:05:30 – 00:06:15
I pulled away from the career, I almost became a youth pastor so that I could move closer to being near her. It would have been the absolute worst position for me and all the children would have like perished under my anger because I was in so much pain, but I was willing to do anything to try and get close to her while she was going through, treatment. And I’m very grateful that didn’t happen. But I realized in 2020 when January started, I was starting the year with a miscarriage with the anniversary of losing my mom with a job loss and with a former employer, spreading gossip about me. And so I was in, like, trauma city all by myself.
Mandy Capehart
00:06:15 – 00:06:32
And then I’m starting to hear on the news about COVID and pandemics, and I became really guarded and angry about it. Like, hey, guys. 2020 is my year to have a mess. Everybody get it together. And in March, when our school shut down and I lost another job, I realized this is not the world I can live in.
Mandy Capehart
00:06:32 – 00:07:17
I cannot live in a world where there are going to be generations of untended grief and a complete lack of understanding and brief literacy. So I started writing my story down. That was where the book came from, over the course of a couple months, I just went through everything that I had experienced that was encouraging and positive to me, both within the of my faith and without it looking for pathways forward that were relatable to others, that could be relatable. Not just like this is what worked for me. So it will work for you, but creating more of an invitation into exploring what might be possible through these different methods of approaching our grief and ourselves differently.
Mandy Capehart
00:07:17 – 00:08:02
And as the book was finished, there was a wildfire in our town that destroyed 25100 homes. So I got firsthand an opportunity to not only share this work of my heart and to connect with people I knew who lost their homes and were now survivors of this wildfire. There were 3 people who died as well, but I also took that into this idea of what if I became a coach around the idea of what it means to grieve and to survive. And so I took my my personal background, my educational background, and poured it all into this, practice that I’ve built. And it just has transformed everything I expected my life to become.
Mandy Capehart
00:08:02 – 00:08:09
I always knew I’d be a writer. Right? We always have those threads. I always knew I’d be a writer. I’m very, people driven.
Mandy Capehart
00:08:09 – 00:08:29
So I always knew I’d be working with people. I never expected that I’d be working as a grief and trauma educator, showing up for people in their worst moments and sitting with them through the enormity of it. So that’s my quickest way to describe why I decided grief and death were the things I wanted to talk about all day long.
Victoria Volk
00:08:30 – 00:08:38
Kind of similar to my story. Started very young. How old were you when you had your first loss that you can recall?
Mandy Capehart
00:08:42 – 00:08:58
I mean, I was probably that I can recall would be my great grandmother. My grandparents are all I mean, every generation is at 10, 20 years, 19 to 20 years of each other. So I knew all of my great grandparents., Wow. And a couple of my great great grandparents.
Mandy Capehart
00:09:00 – 00:09:16
Wow. I’m sorry. It was my great great grandmother, Selma, who died when I was 3. And I have memories of sitting in her kitchen and being with her and having her read to me. And that I would say that would probably be the earliest loss I can recall.
Mandy Capehart
00:09:16 – 00:09:23
And at that age, what do you know? You’re 3 and great grandma great great grandma’s almost just not around anymore. We don’t have framework for it. But,
Victoria Volk
00:09:25 – 00:09:37
Yeah. Do you know what’s fascinating though? By age 3, we have learned 75% of our of our awarenesses of how to respond to life.
Mandy Capehart
00:09:37 – 00:09:40
Right? It’s wild. Like it’s in there’s
Victoria Volk
00:09:40 – 00:09:53
no conscious, conscious recollection and hindsight about that. But yeah. By that, we’re sponges. So how young were your parents when they had you?
Mandy Capehart
00:09:53 – 00:10:00
I think my mom was 20, 21. My dad was 24. Sounds right.
Victoria Volk
00:10:01 – 00:10:06
And you knew your great, great grandparents? Yeah. Wow. That’s fascinating. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:10:06 – 00:10:07
Incredible, really.
Mandy Capehart
00:10:07 – 00:10:24
Yeah, I mean, my grandmother is in her eighties now and consistent. Like we’ve stopped correcting people. That is my mom. We just don’t correct anyone because people assume it is my mom because the age range makes sense.
Mandy Capehart
00:10:24 – 00:10:31
Right? And with my aunts, people assume that we’re sisters and I’m just like, you can have it. Take it. Like, sure. We’re sisters.
Mandy Capehart
00:10:31 – 00:10:41
It doesn’t bother me. It’s who cares? But it’s interesting the way that we perceive age gaps. That’s a whole other conversation, but anyway. Yeah.
Mandy Capehart
00:10:41 – 00:10:42
Young family.
Victoria Volk
00:10:42 – 00:10:58
What did you find yourself saying the most during COVID, to others? What was the story that was playing in your head over and over as you were kind of reflecting on your losses, as you’re writing your book, as you were working with other grievers and talking to other grievers.
Mandy Capehart
00:10:59 – 00:11:55
Yeah. I think a lot of what I experienced personally and also in the stories of others was this pain around being minimized and dismissed. So in my immediate family, I have an immune disorder in our family. And so we were really guarded and absolutely afraid of the unknown and the uncertainty of this pandemic and what would be happening. And we did lose people that we knew and where I would support others and be working with people around the fear of that was invalidating was through validating the stories that they were telling as well and through validating their experiences and helping them to validate and not minimize the enormity of their experiences, their emotions, their sensations in their body, like we as a people, and maybe just this is western culture.
Mandy Capehart
00:11:55 – 00:12:39
I don’t know. Became so quick to justify and minimize our responses for survival so
we could socially still belong or mentally not cave under the pressure of choosing all of these black and white dichotomous opportunities that were handed to us. I feel like there was so much of you’re either with me or you’re against me and, and that in and of itself is a distorted way of thinking, but it’s also such an eliminator of that gray space, that grief exists within. Right? We cannot navigate grief without recognizing it is all gray space.
Mandy Capehart
00:12:39 – 00:13:13
There really is no black and white. And so when I would come up against those black and white thinking patterns in clients and in friends and family members. It was an exercise in, do I wanna do this for a long period of time or is this just the COVID reaction to losing my job and having to pivot and having zero certainty for the foreseeable future. And so it really transformed into this understanding of, oh, no, certainty is the lie. Certainty is the addiction.
Mandy Capehart
00:13:13 – 00:13:32
What does that look like then as a griever and even as a grief professional to help individuals not minimize their fear of certainty or their fear of a lack of certainty, and come to embrace uncertainty and all of its beauty and all of its gray space and all of its opportunity, to find healing.
Victoria Volk
00:13:33 – 00:13:51
What were the lessons that you were taught about grief as you grew up within your family? Like, how did how did that because you had a lot of grief in your life growing up. Yeah. How was that shaped your belief before you knew now what you know. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:13:53 – 00:13:57
Like, what were you taught about grief and how to grieve?
Mandy Capehart
00:13:57 – 00:14:09
You know, not a lot. I think and keeping in mind, like, this is the early nineties. Right? Late eighties, early nineties. We, weren’t necessarily stiff upper lip people.
Mandy Capehart
00:14:10 – 00:14:21
We were very strong back. We can do this, push through it. There’s always a solution. You’ll figure it out. Just keep going kind of people.
Mandy Capehart
00:14:21 – 00:15:05
My dad still to this day says work smart, not hard. And so as a young griever, I can I translated that to It’s hard to grieve, so I will work smart by not grieving and just truly minimize my own experience so that I can do the task in front of me? And I think that that’s a pretty, pretty expected and universal response to grieve as a child, I also think I was watching my parents grieve. And when I was a teenager, I remember having a distinct moment of deciding, oh, my parents are human. So I’m sitting back here angry with them, grieving everything that they’ve gone through, that they’ve put us through trying to survive this ongoing grief experiences that we’re having.
Mandy Capehart
00:15:05 – 00:15:31
And yet I have failed to see them as people as well who are at that time 30. And I think now to when I was 30 and realizing, oh my God, I was no one knew what they were doing. I was a mess at 30. Even for as much as I had figured out, I was a immature trying to just prove that I knew what I was doing and I was valuable in the world. What if my parents were in similar boats?
Mandy Capehart
00:15:31 – 00:16:14
And so I think even grandparents and extended family members had their own opinions about grief. And there were some very strong, religious influences on part of our family, which was, of course, a different layer to how people wanted to navigate grief or not navigated at all., But I feel like it just wasn’t really a conversation to the degree that when my mom died, that following she died right after Christmas, not following Christmas. I went back home for the holidays and remember thinking this is gonna be either a mess or the most restorative experience we could ever have together. Like this is a definitive Christmas gathering.
Mandy Capehart
00:16:14 – 00:16:28
What do I wanna do about it? What do I wanna bring to this family? So the first night I brought bourbon and I got everyone really sick and hungover the next day. And we all pretended we weren’t hungover, which was in retrospect, my favorite thing. We were just like, wow, I don’t feel good.
Mandy Capehart
00:16:28 – 00:16:40
What did we eat yesterday? And I was like, guys, we drank too much bourbon. I don’t know why that’s unclear. Why aren’t we admitting? But that was such a perfect example of like, oh, we’re all grieving as well, and we’re not admitting it.
Mandy Capehart
00:16:40 – 00:16:54
Okay, It opened it up so that I was able to say, hey, this whole denial thing is not serving us. We’ve tried for a year to survive on our own. It does not work. And so now I’m going to start asking you guys some really vulnerable questions.
Mandy Capehart
00:16:55 – 00:17:10
And even if it’s just for me, if you need to believe that you’re answering those questions so that I can heal. That’s fine. But don’t shut down. Don’t pull back. And so it’s really become this family that I mean, still still grieving.
Mandy Capehart
00:17:10 – 00:17:31
Like I said off air, I have an aunt who’s in the hospital right now for cancer and her daughter is in the hospital as well for some medical crisis, that she’s been navigating. And these are not simple, small things. These are not I had a wart removed operations. Right? It’s still a family unit where we can say, this is horrible.
Mandy Capehart
00:17:31 – 00:18:13
How do we survive this? How do we hold each other In the midst of the uncertainty of if we’ll survive it or not, if our family members will be okay. So I think that, lack of grief literacy kind of articulated in my childhood is a big part of why now, despite the discomfort, despite the, pushback I get when I bring it up in certain situations when people just wanna have a good time. I don’t care. I’ve seen the benefit of pushing into those uncomfortable places and teaching both myself and my nervous system, how to remain aligned and resting even amid what feels like a threat to my health and my mental stability.
Mandy Capehart
00:18:13 – 00:18:21
Grief can disrupt all of that. And yet it can also be the doorway into like binding restoration in that area as well.
Victoria Volk
00:18:21 – 00:19:02
The thing I heard you say in I’ll say it how I heard it is that there’s this deep desire to have deeper conversations instead of all that surface level stuff. And, I’ve even found myself, I’ll be out and about mingling in the bar or whatever with friends and I’ll say something and they’ll look at me like, okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s too depressing. They’re kind of like, to be not to be the Debbie downer, but it’s like, let’s, I have friends too where it’s like, I don’t I don’t even know what their dreams are.
Victoria Volk
00:19:02 – 00:19:08
Yeah. But I know if I ask them, it’s like, why are you asking me that? Like, they don’t want to talk about it. Like,
Mandy Capehart
00:19:08 – 00:19:33
Sure. You know, I think often whether they wanna talk about it or they don’t have an answer or they haven’t gotten through the the layer of, but what if it doesn’t workout. But what if I can’t the uncertainty. Right? They their relationship to uncertainty is directly impacted by their desire to control the outcome and control their experiences.
Mandy Capehart
00:19:33 – 00:19:57
And I think those uncomfortable conversations, those deeper conversations are sacred ground. We’re asking someone to step forward and be seen and be known and to not have the answers. And certainly, it’s a collective approach. Right? It’s collective healing that I’m inviting people into when I say, share your deepest, darkest moments with me.
Mandy Capehart
00:19:57 – 00:20:14
Tell me what you’re afraid of, because guess what? You’re not only totally valid and being afraid of that. I’m afraid of that too. But now what do we perceive each other to be less than or weak or an trustworthy? Like, I don’t know.
Mandy Capehart
00:20:14 – 00:20:50
I see that depth and that willingness to be seen as such a a flag of safety. My aunt the other day, a different aunt was telling me how this family member in the hospital is the strongest person that she knows and gave all this evidence. And I responded, it takes one to know one. And I say that because you lost my mom, your sister, you’ve experienced heartache after heartache. And here you are In person, caring for our family members that are in the hospital all by yourself.
Mandy Capehart
00:20:50 – 00:21:13
And while I would, if I could drop everything and come to you, our lives are very different and she has that ability. What does that what does it look like to be supported by me right now? Like, you don’t have to be so strong all the time too. And I think when we can finally tell people that you don’t have to be strong, like you don’t have to keep being strong. I personally hate it when someone’s like, oh my gosh, you’re so strong.
Mandy Capehart
00:21:13 – 00:21:32
And I was like, no. What you see, because you’re not safe for me to not be strong, is the strength. You see the backbone. The soft tender side of me is available to people who aren’t going to disrespect or diminish me. And to be honest, I show that side to a lot of people now, but when I was younger, not so much.
Mandy Capehart
00:21:32 – 00:21:59
And I think being able to just call that tenderness out in people toward themselves, right? Show yourself your tender side. Be honest with how much you’re carrying and let’s see if we can’t offload some of that weight simply by Identifying and addressing it and letting it move through our life and our story and our experiences. So it’s not Debbie Downer to me to bring up like deepest, darkest fears in the bar. That is the moment of vulnerability that I can say, hey.
Mandy Capehart
00:21:59 – 00:22:14
Your walls are down and you’re with safe people, If I’m not a safe person, probably don’t invite me to drinks again, because alcohol is gonna make you say and do things you don’t want me to remind you of the next day. Otherwise, I must be a safe person because I’m here. So let’s just be real. K?
Mandy Capehart
00:22:14 – 00:22:28
Because we’ve got limited time. We don’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. Tell me what should tell me what hurts. Let’s talk through it and just bear witness to each other in a way that we’ve been discouraged from doing.
Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:38
Yeah. I made sugar cookies recently and I was just thinking, yep. Just like sugarcoating. Just it’s it’s that. I mean, it’s a terrible Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:22:38 – 00:22:46
Literal sugar coating. That’s what we do. Right. And yeah, like you said, just to get real. Let’s get real.
Victoria Volk
00:22:47 – 00:23:03
I don’t want to gloss over something you said because, I feel like it’s an important lost to talk about because there’s not just you, it’s also your partner involved. But you had, shared that you had lost had a miscarriage.
Mandy Capehart
00:23:04 – 00:23:19
Oh, yeah. I actually don’t know how many miscarriages I’ve had. We got married pretty I was early twenties and our daughter was born when I was 30. And so we had years of infertility. We weren’t trying right away.
Mandy Capehart
00:23:19 – 00:23:51
But when we did start, just years of infertility and the undeniable pain that goes with that is when they come on and say like, oh, we’re not sure why everything about you is normal. I’m like, cool. Except that my body can’t do the one thing that like It was created to do okay. Like all of the uncertainty, every question and, anybody who’s ever experienced infertility knows immediately the question is like, what did I do wrong? What am I doing wrong?
Mandy Capehart
00:23:51 – 00:24:14
Is it because I did x y z. If there’s religious trauma on top of it, there’s all of that blame that comes along from a spiritual side as well. There was so much, built in. And then we so our daughter was born in, 2014 as a miracle. Like she was a surprise and I was terrified the entire pregnancy.
Mandy Capehart
00:24:15 – 00:24:25
And then a few years later, of course, in 2020, on New Year’s Eve, I knew I was pregnant. I looked at my husband. I’m like, I’m pregnant. And he’s like, really? Did you take a test?
Mandy Capehart
00:24:25 – 00:24:41
Are you kidding? That doesn’t make sense. How how do you know? And I was like, no, I just, I have a feeling. And I tested positive a couple of days later and started bleeding a couple of days after that and just sat with it because it was the one I knew about.
Mandy Capehart
00:24:41 – 00:25:23
It was the one I had a test, a positive, Oh my God. Is this really happening? Experience, especially 4 years after losing mom and realizing, like, the hope I had placed in that little pregnancy, it was interesting because I remember feeling very much, and this is similar to how I felt in the week after my mom died, feeling very much that, okay, I can safeguard and bear in mind. This is before I wrote my book or any of the like, started doing any of this work really professionally. I’ve been speaking publicly and leading a small, church in a bar for years up until then.
Mandy Capehart
00:25:23 – 00:26:28
But, and so I talked about loss and grief plenty of times, but this was really a moment where I again decided, okay, I can choose to numb myself and step away from the hope of ever having another baby from the fullness of what this means and what it doesn’t mean, or I can choose to really lean in to both the grief I’m going to experience from this and the stillness I need to heal because it is not a the misunderstanding of what a miscarriage does to a human body is so offensive is the best way I can put it. Like the lack of understanding people have about what actually happens and what you’re experiencing. I had to give myself a lot of permission to be tender and still, and unproductive. I’m extremely busy and productive when you were listing all the things in my bio was like, jeez, I have done so many things. Maybe it’s time to calm down a bit.
Mandy Capehart
00:26:28 – 00:26:44
But, anyway, the sensation even of having the pregnancy and knowing, oh, I’ve got untold number of miscarriages in my past. What do I do? Do I Dream. Do I hope? Do I pretend I’m not pregnant?
Mandy Capehart
00:26:45 – 00:27:02
Do I wait? Do I tell anyone? Do I panic? I chose hope I chose to lean in fully and say, I’m going to imagine our life with another baby. I’m going to lean fully in and completely invest.
Mandy Capehart
00:27:02 – 00:27:26
And so when, the miscarriage began, I had to tell my husband. Yep. I’m going to lean fully into the loss here too. And not just for me, although I will say his ability to support me has often been at the expense of him supporting himself. And that’s a, that’s a whole nother topic of how to help your grieving partner.
Mandy Capehart
00:27:26 – 00:27:43
Right. But it’s been a very healing journey for us to come back together and really talk About what that meant and what it means ongoing. And yeah, miscarriage is a very, very nuanced experience of loss.
Victoria Volk
00:27:43 – 00:27:54
What would you like to say and clarify for people about what you said, how the misconception about miscarriage and what it does to them.
Mandy Capehart
00:27:55 – 00:28:07
Yeah, it’s a good question. I think It comes back to that recognition that we are holistic beings. We are heart, mind, body, spirit. We are not just a body. We are not just a mind.
Mandy Capehart
00:28:07 – 00:28:54
We are not just the emotions that we feel. And when we approach ourselves from a disjointed perspective trying to heal, trying to experience grief. We dismiss the wisdom that we have carried from all of our other experiences into this moment where we could integrate them together and actually experience healing. And so I say that in regards to miscarriage because the emotional impact, the true emotions, the things I’m feeling in my heart, the thoughts I’m thinking about the miscarriage itself, about the loss of my future, about the rationale behind what happened and why about the debate internally. Is it a baby?
Mandy Capehart
00:28:54 – 00:29:03
Is it a fetus? Is it viable? Is it not? What will people say? What will people think like the mental fireworks that are just exploding left and right?
Mandy Capehart
00:29:03 – 00:29:25
And then that piritual side. And, in my framework, there’s sort of grief framework. Spirit refers to that connection to self, to others, relationally to the world, at large. And then if there is a spiritual practice to our sense of higher power. But all of those pieces have to be included, honored, and addressed when we’re healing.
Mandy Capehart
00:29:25 – 00:29:38
And I think with miscarriages, because there have been such again, black and white perspectives discerning. Okay. It’s just a scientific process. I don’t know if you’ve read Becoming Michelle Obama’s first book. It’s beautiful.
Mandy Capehart
00:29:39 – 00:29:50
She tells the story of her miscarriage and she’s very practical. She’s like, it it was just a clump of cells to me. And so and that’s how she moves through it in the book. And I sat with it for a long time because to some degree. Yeah.
Mandy Capehart
00:29:50 – 00:30:19
Totally. Just like not viable outside of me, scientific process. And like I said, I don’t know how many I’ve had. I had such irregular cycles that I’ve probably had multiple. And yet here I am choosing hope on the front of that and saying, if I don’t lean fully in with my emotions, with my mind and with my sense of connection to this little clump of cells, then I may miss out on the fullness of what this experience can be.
Mandy Capehart
00:30:19 – 00:30:57
I think when we discredit people who have babies and who can carry life and put them into this well, and you see this in legislation right now, everywhere. We’ve minimized their personhood as autonomous individuals. We’ve minimized their ability to advocate for themselves, which is because we don’t think it’s important. We don’t see the enormity of what life and giving life and going through all of the steps of that can be. So I think that the misconception of like, oh my gosh, you’ve had a miscarriage.
Mandy Capehart
00:30:57 – 00:31:13
I’ve had some too. That immediate centering of yourself in someone else’s experience when they share with you. Right. When they are real and vulnerable and honest is a reflection of that other person’s discomfort. Like, I’m not comfortable with you telling me that you’re hurting.
Mandy Capehart
00:31:13 – 00:31:25
So I’ll just say I’ve been there. We don’t have to talk about it. I’ve been there too. And that goes to all grief experiences. People center themselves and minimize pain easily.
Mandy Capehart
00:31:25 – 00:32:12
But I think, at the crux of it would be recognizing the individual experience of a miscarriage or infertility or pregnancy loss or child loss. They’re so complicated and nuanced because there’s every day a reminder that you’ve experienced this loss where I can say, oh, man, my memories of my mom come back probably every day in some way or another, or my grandfather or any of these people that I’ve lost. Those come up so differently than the miscarriages do because I have a little girl who’s constantly, she’s backed off now, but begged for a sibling for years every day. And how do you explain to a little girl? Well, mommy can’t.
Mandy Capehart
00:32:12 – 00:32:17
Mommy’s tried. You had one. Kind of. Maybe. I don’t know.
Mandy Capehart
00:32:17 – 00:32:35
And then you spiral again right down that same mental explosion of, I don’t even know how to think about this without hearing the input from judgmental voices and critical voices Oliver. It’s a long way to answer that question, but there’s a lot about it on my mind.
Victoria Volk
00:32:36 – 00:32:45
And you bring up a very good point in that for your daughter. That’s a grieving experience too of not having a sibling. Right? Yep. Maybe that’s a book you could write.
Mandy Capehart
00:32:45 – 00:32:58
Oh, man. The other day she, well, I guess it was a couple of years ago. I found a piece of paper she’d written on that said reminder, biggest reminder of your life. She was probably 6 or 7. Mom is willing to adopt a baby sister.
Mandy Capehart
00:32:58 – 00:33:13
And I was like, oh, child. Again, like, immune disorder, constant treatment happening in our house. So our lives are not simple. Adoption would not not that that’s simple, but no easy path forward on it. It was pretty hard to read that.
Mandy Capehart
00:33:13 – 00:33:37
And then fast forward a couple of years the other day, she was saying to a friend, hey, guess what? I’m an only child, so you should come to my house because we can do anything and there’s no one taking our toys. We don’t have to include any siblings. And I just thought, thank God she’s embracing the positive because I was not an only child and yet we were years apart. And so it felt a lot like I had both the best of both worlds, I think.
Mandy Capehart
00:33:37 – 00:33:41
So it’s interesting. Yeah, that would be, that would be quite a book.
Victoria Volk
00:33:43 – 00:34:00
And I think, in grief recovery, we talk about replacing the loss. Right. And so as children, one of our first losses is usually an animal or a pet, or let’s say a dog, and then the parents say, well, that’s okay, Sally. We can just go to the pet store and get a new dog tomorrow. You know, like, right?
Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:24
And so I was just thinking about that, like, when she asked for a sibling, it’s like, well, maybe we can start with a puppy, but then at the same time, it’s, it’s minimizing, right? The loss of hope, dreams and expectations that she had for her life, sharing it with the sibling. Right? And that’s gonna be a grief story she’ll grow into tube. And like you said, it’s I think that would be a very important book.
Mandy Capehart
00:34:25 – 00:34:38
We have to move into that space of both and. Right? We can both grieve the loss of a sibling and celebrate the life we have. They don’t cancel each other out. They don’t negate.
Mandy Capehart
00:34:38 – 00:35:04
When we were, let’s see. I was probably 14 when my stepmom’s dog died, and we loved Riley. She was the sweetest black lab, and she was full of energy, and she ran in front of a vehicle and didn’t survive. And it was probably 6 months later and that my we were grieving and my stepmom was really like, I miss Riley so much. I want another pet, but I don’t know if I’m ready.
Mandy Capehart
00:35:04 – 00:35:30
I had found golden retriever puppies for sale in the newspaper like that weekend. And we were on the way to go. Like our weekend plans were, do we go get this puppy or do we go see this musician at the park? This musician that I loved and I was convinced if I just met him at 14, he would want to marry me and we would just have to have a long courtship because I was a child. I did not marry that musician, but I did marry a musician.
Mandy Capehart
00:35:30 – 00:36:00
But anyway, I, like, remember my stepmom saying, I’m not sure if I’m ready, but I guess we can go meet these dogs. And when we got there, they were in squalor. Like my dad got in this guy’s face and said, if you don’t just hand me this puppy at this price point That I’m saying, because the guy wanted 1,000 of dollars for these dogs that were being abused. He said, I’m gonna report you to the city for illegally, breeding these dogs and keeping them, abusing them. And of course we reported them anyway, but we took home this, the runt of the litter that was covered in its own filth.
Mandy Capehart
00:36:00 – 00:36:30
And, and my stepmom realized I was ready not to replace Riley, but to invite an opportunity to love another little Cue another little creature and an experience that reciprocated affection. Right. And so tucker moved in with us and was amazing until he died as well. But, it’s, it’s remarkable. We, I know that story is so different.
Mandy Capehart
00:36:30 – 00:36:49
I know most people who would have partners can tell you stories of their partners who’ve just brought home another pet or something like that and said, don’t worry. Now you don’t have to be sad anymore. And again, it’s that minimizing of our experiences. Instead of recognizing we can integrate the experiences together for a more holistic and restorative and healing experience.
Victoria Volk
00:36:50 – 00:36:52
I look forward to that book you write.
Mandy Capehart
00:36:54 – 00:36:55
Both hands. Got it. Okay.
Victoria Volk
00:36:56 – 00:37:07
Well, and I think I think your daughter would be a beautiful you know, she could almost see herself as the character in that book. Right. And probably help you write it. Yeah., She’s a brilliant little writer.
Victoria Volk
00:37:07 – 00:37:07
She,
Mandy Capehart
00:37:09 – 00:37:24
She could write it herself. I think that that’s part of it is recognizing too, like, that is also her story, and that is something that she deserves to be the one the authority of. And as parents, it’s easy for us to say like, hey, we’ve got the perspective. We’ve got the age. We’ve got the experience.
Mandy Capehart
00:37:24 – 00:37:55
We know better. And that’s one thing with our kiddo that we’re trying to raise her with is a sense of autonomy where she can push back on us. She can ask questions that are really hard when they come to mind and that she can walk away from conversations with unsatisfying answers and not not to the degree where mom and dad said so, and that’s why. But this, like, that didn’t clarify or that didn’t answer anything because mom and dad don’t have the answer. They don’t act they’re not actually infallible.
Mandy Capehart
00:37:55 – 00:38:23
Okay. What does that mean for me? And at the same time, she’s like, she’s 9. We’re trying very hard to protect her from the enormity of all the things and keep her young and keep her innocent as much as possible as in this stage, but, but giving her a chance to just have a childhood. Like, she experienced losing her nana, when she was 1a half, and my mom had moved across the state to help care for her when I needed to go back to work.
Mandy Capehart
00:38:23 – 00:39:18
And so we had a very special relationship that my daughter doesn’t remember. And I think she deserves to experience what that mean what she has carried with her from that loss in her body and how it shows up for her. I mean, anxious kids are a dime a dozen these days with how life happens around us, but it’s a very special opportunity for us to teach them differently than we were taught and to help them understand how to move through anxiety and stress and fear of loss In ways that we really needed when we were young. And that means getting really uncomfortable and not being able to just fix it or answer it away or explain it away. There’s a lot of when you’re older, I’ll go more in-depth, but for now, please take this information and hold onto it as fact and trust me that, I’ll share more later, but
Victoria Volk
00:39:19 – 00:39:50
So far, Mandy has shared some beautiful bits of wisdom with us all, and she’s going to continue in a few moments with some practical tips. But first, I just wanted to share a word from my sponsor, MagicMind. Consistently creating new content isn’t easy, and it does require a lot of focus and energy. And it can be hard to balance them. Either you have too much energy and you feel amped up and, like, you’re ready to bounce off the walls instead of feeling dialed in.
Victoria Volk
00:39:50 – 00:40:28
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Victoria Volk
00:40:28 – 00:40:58
The wonderful people at Magic Mind have offered a wonderful offer for my Grieving Voices listeners, just for the month of January, you get 1 month for free when subscribing for 3 months. If you go to magicmind.com/jangrievingvoices. And with my code, grieving voices, it’s an extra 20% off, which actually gets you a 75% off, and this only lasts until the end of January. So hurry up before it goes away. All right.
Victoria Volk
00:40:58 – 00:41:19
Let’s get back to the episode so Mandy can share some more of her wonderful wisdom with us. That’s a great lead to, into my next question in people listening, who are just really walking through a really difficult time. What, what is, what are some practical things that you can suggest to those people.
Mandy Capehart
00:41:19 – 00:41:43
Yeah. Well, absolutely. As a somatic practitioner, I am very, very hopeful when people are willing to pay attention to the sensations that are happening in their body. Like, we’re really quick to disconnect, like I said, our heart and our mind and our body and our spirit because we think we can think our way through a problem. If that were the case, we would have no more problems.
Mandy Capehart
00:41:43 – 00:41:52
So, like, that’s an easy dismissal. No, girl. You can’t think through that problem. No arguments against, like, the mental exercises., I get it.
Mandy Capehart
00:41:52 – 00:42:31
There’s value in them sometimes, but, ruminating takes it too far. So I think that keeping ourselves humble enough to say, maybe there’s something in my body that I can sense that will bring me some wisdom. There are a lot of somatic practices that I share, on my Instagram page and through my podcast and the work that I do, because I want these practical Habits to become the things that we go to first. Right? So in our neuroplasticity world, we know our brain can be we know that even just imagining a thing can cause our nervous system to react.
Mandy Capehart
00:42:32 – 00:43:16
And so if that is true, then the inverse is true of the way that we heal and the way that we can experience positive things as well. So if I imagine a bear is standing in front of me threatening my family, my nervous system is going to say, hey, holy crap. You should probably strategize and run away. And so the same is true of peaceful experiences and moving through loss and even restoring relationship with people that we’ve lost. And so engaging the somatic, the body, the nervous system in ways that, might feel a little a little, uncomfortable or maybe a little have some skepticism attached to it is one of my favorite ways to bring people in because the the Feel Your Feelings crowd, which we’ve all done that.
Mandy Capehart
00:43:17 – 00:43:42
And it was very popular for a while. It, for me, I witnessed it transform into good vibes only, which is probably like the one phrase that I would eradicate from the common collective, if I could. I hear good vibes only. And I see I what I actually hear is my neutral vibes aren’t welcome. My human existence isn’t welcome here.
Mandy Capehart
00:43:44 – 00:44:11
So, yeah, I would say start with recognizing going beyond just trying to think your way through a problem or let me just feel this and then I’ll feel better. That’s not true, but Your body is in internalizing and holding all of the things that you’ve experienced and to invite those things gently and very carefully with guidance to the surface and to get some wisdom and just some compassion for the things you’ve carried is really important.
Victoria Volk
00:44:12 – 00:44:21
I wanna ask something. You just mentioned it. You said restoring of the relationship with someone you’ve lost. Can you elaborate on that?
Mandy Capehart
00:44:21 – 00:44:42
Yes I can., Okay. So this is going to, might be slightly activating for people who have been In situations and I’ll say this just spiritually or even like religious situations where we talk about prayer or we talk about, afterlife. So bear with me. That framework is where I come from.
Mandy Capehart
00:44:42 – 00:45:20
Right? I have a strong background in different Flavors of Western Christianity. But where I’m going with that is this idea that If a person is removed from us often, whether through divorce breakup, literally moving away, or death, we often think, okay, I have to find closure and it’s going to look like whatever Hollywood tells me it looks like. So we get this idea in our head about what closure is, and we pursue that. And when it doesn’t work, because it typically does not work, we give up.
Mandy Capehart
00:45:20 – 00:45:55
We just think, okay, I guess that’s it. The truth is, if I can imagine a scenario where my nervous system will literally calm back down from a bear in front of me, then does it not stand a reason that I can imagine a connection to the person I’ve lost, a conversation with the person I’ve lost, not to deify them, not to put them on a pedestal and say they were perfect and did no wrong, and I’m the problem. And now I’m having better thoughts about myself. That’s not it. But to the degree where we can say, I’m gonna confront.
Mandy Capehart
00:45:55 – 00:46:16
Here’s an example. My mom with all of her heart led a very private life. There were things after she died that I learned about. There were things as she, as a teenager that I learned about that I could never about or ask about. At one point I was wrestling with something and realized, oh, this is connected to that story.
Mandy Capehart
00:46:16 – 00:46:41
I know about my mom’s life, But I’m not in a place where I can call my grandmother or my aunt or my dad. I don’t have capacity to have a conversation and have them worry about protecting her reputation or her experience. Right. She told me what she told me because she needed that was what I was welcome to be prepared YouTube. But what I knew had affected me and I was carrying it and I needed to process.
Mandy Capehart
00:46:41 – 00:47:19
And so I sat down and started to write a letter about I’m pissed off at you for not sharing and being honest, or I’m hurt that you didn’t share this, or I see that you’re human, but, like, why couldn’t you trust me? Whatever whatever the feelings were. What I ended with was this experience that ended up being verbal. I didn’t write it all down, but I was crying and feeling seen and held by my mom unable to respond. I wasn’t imagining what I ended with wasn’t this experience of, like high spirituality where I would say, oh my gosh.
Mandy Capehart
00:47:19 – 00:47:51
I’m healed from that wound with my mom just not disclosing something. I ended this cathartic expression of just not being able to be honest about what I’ve been carrying. All of the emotion of feeling untrusted and feeling unseen or feeling unworthy of hearing this hard thing in my mom’s life. Even the losses connected to it because, you know, I learn a piece of information and my brain goes to, well, what did that mean for me if that had happened? If it hadn’t happened now in the in between, what does it mean for me?
Mandy Capehart
00:47:51 – 00:48:10
All of those pieces that felt so open ended didn’t necessarily feel like closure. They felt like integrated. It felt like I could ask those questions and not fall to pieces. It felt like I could approach it with a sense of clarity but, yeah, there are still uncertainties attached. I’m not gonna have an answer that’s satisfying.
Mandy Capehart
00:48:11 – 00:48:33
I’m not going to resolve it. I, however, notice this piece of my mom’s relationship with me has lightened. When I think of that moment. When I think of that memory with my mom, that information withheld, I’m not having this sharp pressure. So part of somatic work is about learning to notice the sensations in your body.
Mandy Capehart
00:48:33 – 00:49:16
And sometimes it’s really hard to describe them, which honestly means that people are usually onto something there. And even now as I’m like talking about this, I can feel this like finger pressure, amount of pressure, like right behind my sternum, right around my heart. And it’s still less now than it was when I think about how I felt, what, 16 learning this piece of information and feeling trapped and not feeling Able to even talk about like, even as I’m thinking 16, my throat is starting to like get tight and want to close-up because I couldn’t talk about it. And I didn’t have that freedom to come into a place where it was a safe thing to converse about. So, yes, I have lost my mom and no, we never talked about it.
Mandy Capehart
00:49:16 – 00:49:59
And yet here I am talking about it in a way that I don’t actually need to imagine that she’s sitting there with me. You know, there’s this, practice called the empty chair in therapeutic Modalities where we invite the person to that chair, or we talk to the chair as if the person is with us. It doesn’t have to even be that activating because that is a hard Practice., It can be as simple as just letting myself be really honest and vulnerable with how what I’ve experienced is true and there were ugly parts of it. And I’m going to for me, vulnerability is accepting but those ugly painful parts are true and present and not trying to minimize or push them away.
Mandy Capehart
00:50:01 – 00:50:18
And I think You know, it’s a really difficult place to get to, but we don’t have to start with doing it in our own internal work. Right. We can start with an external relationship where we’re looking for a little bit of understanding or integration
when we know we’re not going to get answers at the end of it.
Victoria Volk
00:50:20 – 00:50:52
In grief recovery, we talk about and that really just reminds me there’s an exercise that we do where you do just that really. It, and, and it’s because you can have all these feelings and not get the closure. Right. And you’re stuck in emotional jail. But if you can get to that place through the way, the way you described, the somatic work that you do with people or through the grief recovery work with me, that’s that it’s possible, Right?
Victoria Volk
00:50:52 – 00:51:12
That is possible that that emotional energy, because emotions have energy, right? Can be lessened, enlightened, and worked through and filled with a fresh, newer perspective and maybe a whole lot of compassion yourself and the other person.
Mandy Capehart
00:51:12 – 00:51:35
Absolutely., I mean, emotions are energy in motion. They are literally little tiny vibrations that we’re sensing in our body that our brain is making a thought about, is making sense of, and then we spit it out and we call it a feeling, but it’s not. It’s you know, the feeling is the physical part. And the more we can allow ourselves to like, oh, maybe I misunderstand human emotion.
Mandy Capehart
00:51:35 – 00:51:53
Maybe I don’t know myself as well as I think. Maybe I’ve really protected myself from having to get into those vulnerable, uncomfortable feelings. Even this morning, I was talking with my husband, in response to 2 conversations yesterday about people who say, well, I’m not angry. I’m not angry. I don’t have a right to be angry.
Mandy Capehart
00:51:53 – 00:52:13
I have nothing to be angry about. I’m like, oh, but you do. You do have a right to be angry. You deserve to be angry, but also your relationship to anger might need to shift because if you’ve minimized it and disqualified yourself, you’re missing the fact that anger is a secondary emotion. And it’s really protecting you from those more risky emotions.
Mandy Capehart
00:52:13 – 00:52:41
There’s more vulnerable emotions behind it that maybe pointing to the fact that you’ve been invalidated or treated unjustly., Right? Our relationship to our emotions, but specifically, the uncomfortable emotions, is often so muted when we grieve that we don’t even notice we’re muting our access to the comfortable positive emotions at the same time. Right? We just we feel numb, and then we say, well, I don’t have emotions when No numb is an emotion too.
Mandy Capehart
00:52:41 – 00:52:57
Numbness is a feeling that has information for us. And we just get to a point where we’re willing to say, okay, well, what are you trying to teach me?, That then The floodgates open and it feels cathartic instead of just a fear driven. I’m never going to stop crying if I start. So I just won’t start.
Victoria Volk
00:52:58 – 00:53:25
I’m in a Voxer group with some, some friends, from all over the world. And I happen to have listened to one of my friends. She called it a rant and she was very she was angry about something and I heard it. And after I heard it, she had recalled it and I called her out on it and she’s like, I, you know, I just recalled it because you know, it, it doesn’t serve anybody. It doesn’t, it’s not helpful.
Victoria Volk
00:53:25 – 00:53:43
And I said, oh, wait a minute, I said, you have every right to be angry. Anger is a valid emotion. And it needs to come up and out. And unless you’re ruminating on it, and you’re telling every Tom, Dick and Harry the same story and you ruminating on it. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:53:43 – 00:53:54
Like, that’s not helpful. Like that doesn’t serve you. But to get it up and out and like, like, let that emotional charge go. Yeah. That’s helpful.
Victoria Volk
00:53:54 – 00:53:57
That’s serving you. Don’t minimize that. Right?
Mandy Capehart
00:53:57 – 00:53:58
Yeah. It’s like,
Victoria Volk
00:53:58 – 00:54:02
She didn’t mean she didn’t mean my permission. Obviously. Right. Right.
Mandy Capehart
00:54:03 – 00:54:29
Giving you having your permission to be a witness is a big deal, and I think we, you know, every time I hear someone say, oh, well, that’s not a helpful thing. Actually, it is. It’s helpful because it allows you to be honest. It allows you to be seen and known. And if you are translating that it is not helpful for you to be seen and known, then there’s a lot more work for you to do, not with any judgment attached, but just, hey, that sounds like a pretty painful belief that you’ve carried.
Mandy Capehart
00:54:30 – 00:55:11
What’s possible if it’s not true? What’s possible if the inverse is true that you are worth known being known and being seen, and your anger is worth expressing what’s possible for you. I can’t tell you how many grief clients I have that conversation becomes the focus for months because there’s so much to unwind around how we have minimized and invalidated our personhood and our humanity just to belong and survive in places where we’re not going to belong. This goes back to my community loss. I was telling you about like realizing that I only belonged in this large community because I made myself fit.
Mandy Capehart
00:55:11 – 00:55:25
I made myself take on the shape that was acceptable is why when I said I’m no longer going to look sound and act like you guys, do I still belong? They said, absolutely not. No. You don’t. Okay.
Mandy Capehart
00:55:25 – 00:55:39
Does that mean all that we shared was meaningless? No. But it does help me recognize pieces of myself that I sacrificed and decide, was it worth it? Ultimately, no. No.
Victoria Volk
00:55:41 – 00:55:44
But there is no failure in learning either.
Mandy Capehart
00:55:45 – 00:55:45
No. There’s like a failing.
Victoria Volk
00:55:48 – 00:56:08
Our best lessons come in failure, right? That’s why it’s not failure. I was at a wrestling term that my when my son wrestled me was just a young squirt. And on the back of the t-shirts for the wrestling team, this other team, they had, I can’t remember exactly how it was written, but something to the effect of failure is only learning. Yeah, absolutely.
Victoria Volk
00:56:08 – 00:56:11
That’s Yeah. I’ve never forgotten it.
Mandy Capehart
00:56:11 – 00:56:14
Just education. Just information., Yep. This information.
Victoria Volk
00:56:15 – 00:56:22
Is there anything else that you would like to share today. I feel like we could talk even longer, but I want to be respectful of your time.
Mandy Capehart
00:56:24 – 00:56:44
Let’s see. I think the last thing I would invite people into is just giving themselves permission to take up space, might look different than you think. It’s not saying, oh, I need a weekend away. I need to go to the spa. Giving ourselves permission to take up space means learning that self-care is simple.
Mandy Capehart
00:56:44 – 00:56:58
It’s accessible to everyone. Often I say the first step of self-care is a glass of water, right? You take for granted the fact that you can access clean water. So for the moment, you’re probably dehydrated. If you’ve cried today, you’re probably dehydrated.
Mandy Capehart
00:56:58 – 00:57:53
If you’ve pretended you haven’t cried today, or you’re not sad, you’re probably dehydrated. Just go give your skin some love, take a drink of water, a big glass, and start with this baseline understanding that the simple approach to who you are as a human, as my husband so eloquently puts it as a meat bag, as a body, go restore a little piece of that and see if it doesn’t change how you’re feeling because we, were, I think we complicate self-care and, and honoring the simplicity of our personhood because we’re mental creatures. We overthink things. We create robots and incredibly complex Mathematical systems to try and solve all the world’s problems when really, maybe we just need some clean water and a nap. I’m a I’m a big fan of that.
Mandy Capehart
00:57:53 – 00:58:03
So if you’re feeling a little like too muchness, clean water, a glass of water, and a nap is really, for me, a smart place to start.
Victoria Volk
00:58:05 – 00:58:14
I am gonna circle this conversation back to houseplants. Okay. Because this is the best., I don’t know. What what’s the word?
Victoria Volk
00:58:15 – 00:58:21
Segue. Segway. Thank you. And to bringing the conversation back to houseplants, because what do houseplants need?
Mandy Capehart
00:58:21 – 00:58:29
Water, sunlight, and something’s good. Absolutely. Yes. I love that saying that you’re basically a houseplant with emotions. Yes.
Mandy Capehart
00:58:29 – 00:58:45
Get some sunlight, get some water, get a little food occasionally, clear the cobwebs. Do you have fungus gnats? Alright. There’s a there’s a medicine for that. There’s a combination of care and, and lendliness and things you can do, and you’re going to lose some leaves.
Mandy Capehart
00:58:45 – 00:58:50
Yep. That’s a good metaphor. And it’s okay.
Victoria Volk
00:58:50 – 00:58:56
And if they start to turn and if they start to turn yellow, yeah. Check the soil, right? Yeah. I’m looking
Mandy Capehart
00:58:56 – 00:59:11
at the plants in this office right now. There’s probably let’s see. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. There are 14 houseplants in my office right now. Half of them are happy and thriving.
Mandy Capehart
00:59:11 – 00:59:26
One of them is my oldest houseplant ever. It’s like 20 years old, and it has brown spots and it loses leaves all the time. And this year after like 20 years of owning it. It started a second sprout for the first time ever. I started asking myself, what am I doing differently?
Mandy Capehart
00:59:27 – 00:59:39
Because this is this is wild. It’s never done that. It’s just gone straight up and lost some leaves and had some leaves at the top. It looks like a weird palm tree. I can’t even remember what Parietal it is.
Mandy Capehart
00:59:39 – 00:59:58
And I realized, oh, I just started giving it more attention on a consistent basis. Not just the oh, God. I forgot to water. Because for all intents and purposes, as much as I wish I was, I’m a very My ADHD comes in strong. It’s probably why I had so many houseplants at the one point.
Mandy Capehart
00:59:59 – 01:00:20
I just don’t I’m not consistent with them. But when I realized I’ve just been consistent with this one recently and it’s beginning to thrive and new things are growing in it. I thought that, yes. That’ll preach. That is a metaphor right there that if we can attend to ourselves in a consistent and loving and simple manner, something new just might take root.
Victoria Volk
01:00:22 – 01:00:28
That’s a beautiful way to end this podcast. I knew this podcast could be about houseplants.
Mandy Capehart
01:00:29 – 01:00:31
You were right. You were a 100% right.
Victoria Volk
01:00:33 – 01:00:53
Oh, I trust that everything that came out to be shared was shared and I would love to have you back. I think we discussed this before we started to record about having you back on to talk about Enneagram and how that relates to grief and the different Enneagram types. And so I would love to explore that with you in a future episode.
Mandy Capehart
01:00:53 – 01:01:03
Absolutely. I love that topic. I think Enneagram work is so easily aligned with grief work and recovery and integration. So absolutely.
Victoria Volk
01:01:04 – 01:01:36
And I’m like I shared with you too, I’m deep diving into human design. And that’s, you know, comes down to your birth time and place and where, where the, where the stars were and all of that at the, at the time of your birth. And, it’s been a huge, I had a lot of shifts in my perspective towards relationships, just in exploring my own design. And, so it’s information. It’s another tool in discovering who we are and learning about ourselves, and how we show up in our grief.
Victoria Volk
01:01:37 – 01:01:38
Yeah. And otherwise.
Mandy Capehart
01:01:38 – 01:02:11
And also too, I just remembered as you were talking, I will tell you that anybody who wants to get like a head start on what grief and Enneagram work together can look like, I’ve seen the benefit of pushing into those uncomfortable places and teaching both myself and my nervous system, how to remain aligned and resting even amid what feels like a threat to my health and my mental stability. Grief can disrupt all of that. And yet it can also be the doorway into like binding restoration in that area as well.
Victoria Volk
01:02:11 – 01:02:15
And where can people reach out to you if they want to learn more?
Mandy Capehart
01:02:15 – 01:02:34
Yeah. So good. So everything is at Mandy Capehart. So my website, mandycapehart.com Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Pinterest, TikTok, but barely all the things, at Mandy Capehart. And then The Restorative Grief Project is my free online coaching group that is posted, excuse me, hosted on Facebook.
Mandy Capehart
01:02:35 – 01:03:18
And it’s just an environment where we can practice grieving together and practice supporting one another and learn how to respond when people hit us platitudes and and learn how to invite our beloved people into the world of grief support without criticizing how they’ve shown up or not shown up in the past. Like, this is an environment and a place where we just hold space for each other and learn what that means to practice breathing with intention. So, Yeah. I love getting messages and DMs and new connections online about these really uncomfortable conversations because they deserve. It turns out every single one of us deserves to have space to fall apart.
Mandy Capehart
01:03:19 – 01:03:21
So that’s the aim of all of it.
Victoria Volk
01:03:22 – 01:03:28
I love that. And I will link to all that in the show notes. Awesome. And thank you so much for your time today, Mandy.
Mandy Capehart
01:03:28 – 01:03:32
Yeah, absolutely. Victoria, thank you for having me. It’s been my pleasure.
Victoria Volk
01:03:32 – 01:03:37
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Where Are They Now? |
Patti Herr: Where Are They Now? | Grief, Grace & Gratitude in Motherhood
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patti was my second guest on this podcast back in 2020. In our first recording, Patti shares more about what it was like being a young widow and later dealing with infertility with her now husband.
In this follow-up episode, Patti shares some wonderful surprises God had in store for her in the last three years, including the impact working through her grief with me has had on her life and parenting in the time since she participated in one of my grief recovery group programs.
Patti’s story proves that there are rainbows after storm clouds, how impossible it is to know God’s plans for us, and how beautiful the outcome can be.
Motherhood isn’t easy. However, handling the grief that inevitably comes along the way is possible with a little grace and gratitude.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is a recap episode. A Where are they now with my second guest of grieving voices when I first launched in 20202, Patti Herr and thank you so much for being here and catching us all up on the past three years. Can you believe it? Almost three years.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’ll be three years since September since we initially recorded. That’s wild to me. The original episode was episode 13 and it was titled widow, miscarriage, and IVF. And a lot’s changed. Yeah. So let’s go back in time and talk about a little bit about that struggle with becoming pregnant and in your life at that time and what has happened since?
Patti Herr: Well, I it was kinda it wasn’t fresh but the being a widow was still fresh, I guess. And when I got pregnant, I was like, oh my gosh. How did this happen? I mean, obviously, you know how, but why, you know, I couldn’t give my husband my first husband a baby, and now I’m pregnant with someone who isn’t my husband. And so it was that was a struggle to do, but Now looking back, it’s crazy how I feel like he placed every single child into my life. He knew.
Victoria Volk: You had a struggle getting pregnant and you went through IVF. How and I know your last child though,
Patti Herr: You wouldn’t be. It was a surprise.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was not that idea. So can you explain a little bit? Like, what you’ve learned about infertility and about all of that, you know, experience?
Patti Herr: I questioned it. I was like, did we need to do IVF? Did we need to spend all this money? Like, why, you know, how did we get pregnant so quickly after knowing blah blah blah. But, absolutely, secondary infertility is still a thing. And I don’t think had anything to do with stress or anything. I just think that when you have a baby and when you get pregnant, like, your body almost, like, resets And I think that’s kinda what happened. I think my body reset and I ambulated one month and surprise surprise. And we didn’t think we could get pregnant. So
Victoria Volk: Divine timing, I suppose. Right?
Patti Herr: Yep. Yep.
Victoria Vokk: So how far are you
Patti Herr: They’re 23 months apart because she’s December and he’s November. So
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s so fun. You know, my older too are 18 months apart. And I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t really change it. No.
Patti Herr: It’s hard for me. Enorous kind of hard. But
Victoria Volk: yes. It my last one was a little hard
Patti Herr: In there.
Victoria Volk: But they’re the girls are two years apart. Mhmm. So but I did have them all within four years. Yeah. But I
Patti Herr: don’t know how you did it
Victoria Volk: I wouldn’t change it. It was it was crazy. It’s you know, those years are blur for sure, but now I wouldn’t change it, you know.
Patti Herr: Yeah. I think when they get older, it’ll be better because they’ll have to stay at each other and but right now it’s life is crazy. My house is messy. My house is lived in and Yeah. Life is good.
Victoria Volk: Grace.
Victoria Volk: Grace. Grace. Grace. Yeah. Lots of grace to go around.
Patti Herr: I was born people in, like, just or you know? I have three kids and it’s a mess in here.
Victoria Volk: And why do we think we need to apologize? Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk: I know.
Patti Herr: Because some women have their lives together. I do not.
Victoria Volk: Well and you know, it’s like a lot everybody’s circumstances and situations are different too, you know. It’s, you know, it’s I think in this day in age too where you’re working outside the home, and then you come home and, you know, they call that the second shift. That didn’t exist for a lot of women way back when, like, for
Patti Herr: Well, I’m not working right now.
Victoria Volk: But you are.
Patti Herr: Well, I am. Yes. You’re right. You’re right.
Victoria Volk: You are. You are.
Patti Herr: But we’re home all the time, and I think that’s part of it is, like, when you do work, your house stays a little bit cleaner for a little bit longer because the kids aren’t in it.
Victoria Volk: That’s true. That’s very true.
Patti Herr: When you’re home all day, they’re here all day.
Victoria Volk: There is a trade-off there. There is a trade-off. So you are also a client of mine when we first initially recorded. It was shortly before that, like the year before that, you had gone through the grief recovery program. And how do you think that that has I mean, does it still influence your life in certain aspects or ways?
Patti Herr: Mhmm. It’s still a huge eye-opener for me. Like, I still tell people about it, and it still kind of like in awe. Like, I went in to do this about my husband who passed away and I did about someone who was living. Like, it just in awe, like, how people grieve and who they grieve and it kinda just puts it into perspective. And I think it still and I still like, I don’t write letters out anymore, but I do them in my head kind of or, like, in my heart, I guess.
Because it’s been nine years. And, like, recently, June 9th was nine years for me. So But I still I mean, I still struggle with that living person every day, every single day. So
Victoria Volk: And how have you managed to have a relationship with this person?
Patti Herr: To kind of make my not my life easier, but to manage my life and my well-being. I’ve distanced, I guess, in a way I’m not close with that person. But I still have a relationship with them.
Victoria Volk: And I think that’s the gift of going through grief recovery is that you realize where you need boundaries. Yeah. Maybe where you didn’t have them. Would you say that that helped you kinda implement those boundaries?
Patti Herr: Yep. And it’s I used to feel guilty about it, like, not having that person close because, like, my grandpa’s always like, oh, we need to, like, be together on holidays and, you know, bury your family, blah blah blah. But at the same time, I can still have a relationship and have bound laundries and still saved my heart and my family’s heart a little bit. And our feelings, I guess. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced any loss since we past recorded?
Patti Herr: Not personally, but friends, I guess, I’m not super close friends with some friends, and then just in the community, they’ve had losses. There was just a widow last week. I guess, a lady a woman in Westlake that lost her husband to a tragic accident, and I had planned on going to the funeral and I just could not. Leading up to the funeral, I got very anxious and I just I wanted to be there, but I knew it was not gonna be good, so could not do it.
Victoria Volk: Have you thought about working on that relationship with your deceased husband?
Patti Herr: I haven’t, but It has been 9th years. You think I’d be over it by now, but it just Well, those things and it’s it was the day. Like, June 9th was the day we buried him. It was my fifth wedding like, it was my we got married on that day, like, my now husband. Like, I think it’s a really good day to do all this. But then also so that person, that lady in town buried her husband on June 9th, and I just It was too much on June 9th. And then there’s this there’s a lot in history on June ninth for people in Wishik as well. There’s just a lot of a lot of in the mid beginning of June, I don’t know why now, like, a lot of grief in the beginning of June. But
Victoria Volk: Oh. Yeah. And that’s I wanna circle back to what you said. Like, it’s been nine years. I should be over it by now. And I think we tell ourselves that even two, three, four years in, forty years in. Mhmm. You know, people would say that people say that to other people. You should be over it by now. Okay. The thing is is what that process. And you know this, what that process helps you do is become emotionally complete so that when those days come, they aren’t as they don’t feel a sharp. You know? It’s like it it kind of softens the hurt a little bit, you know.
Patti Herr: I should have done a letter that day, but, like, because I’m good with the day with Jared. Let good with it, but, like, I know how to manage it. But then when that funeral came up, it was it was hard. And I knew it was like yeah. So I took a salad and I did some things around the church, but I just couldn’t do the funeral.
Victoria Volk: And that’s okay. Yeah. That’s okay.
Patti Herr: And I didn’t even know him really that well. I just know her and her family and I still just I mean, it brings back so many memories and it’s hard for that day.
Victoria Volk: I had someone ask me yesterday, you know, what do you they’re gonna go visit somebody who is very ill and die essentially. And she had asked me, what do you what do you say to somebody? Who’s dying or what do you say to somebody who’s going through something like that? And because you had that experience of being a widow, is there anything that you would have liked to have said to her or would like to share with anybody listening who may be experiencing that right now, that that you found helpful or that, you know, from your experience that you would like to share.
Patti Herr: Looking back, during, like, the planning process, I don’t feel like I was there really because I don’t like, then a year later, we buried my husband than dad. He died, passed away the day before, a year later. And I feel like I don’t remember planning any of that stuff. I feel like I left it into a lot of the family’s hands. And sometimes I wish I would have been more involved in picking things and but I just emotionally could not do it. So I just think, like, as for as far as advice, grieve, like, how you want because and there’s no timeline. Like, I say it should be over it, but there really is no timeline. And there are some people that are quick to judge and it’s been this long, you know. But can you really put a timeline on that? I don’t know. I don’t think you can. It would children, with husbands, with anyone in your life. Like, I don’t think you can put a timeline on how long you should grieve. Because or how? Like, I just don’t think so I feel I and I have told the widow this, like, you should just grieve how long you want, how you want, don’t let people influence you, keep those people close that wanna be close, like let them in because that’s those are your true friends. I lost people. Lost friends when Jared died in. It’s not like I did anything. Like, I’m not the one that made him pass away. And I still lost friends. So I just feel like your life will change, and you’re just gonna have to learn how to cope with that. And I think your class would be a great and for that when you’re ready. I don’t think you should have to do it right away or push to do it right away, but eventually, you need to start coping and learning how to cope. I didn’t do the counseling thing. I maybe should have, but I didn’t. So but just talking to someone, learning how to do deal and cope with things is very very high up there, I think, on the advice.
Victoria Volk: And one thing I learned too, just working in the groups, having you in the group and working with other clients one on one in the since, you know, in past three years, four years is now I actually have lengthened the one on one program to twelve weeks, and we work on two relationships. Because I think yeah. Because I think that you know, it’s not this one and done. Mhmm. I think once you work on one and then you work on another significant relationship, it kinda solidifies what you’re learning. And I think it just helps to really get a hang of the process because it is learning. It’s a little bit of a learning curve. You know, it’s new knowledge, it’s new tools, and so I’m happy to report that I’ve learned that you can’t just work on one. It’s working on two can help get that ball rolling so that you feel like this really does impact me in a positive way. Mhmm.
Patti Herr: How long does it agree?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You you kinda wish it would have been too.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But I can tell that I’ve done it not to the full capacity, but, like, I’ve done it with other people in my life. Not not probably as in-depth or whatever, but I have done it with other relationships.
Victoria Volk: That’s good to hear. How do you think it’s going through this program and as your kids are getting a little bit older now and maybe asking different questions, you know, how has the going through the program and what you learned influenced your parenting maybe, and even you yourself, like, and how you parent.
Patti Herr: So I remember specifically part of the class who made this timeline and you’re, like, your dog dying, your fish dying. Like, that can impact every little thing in your life. And so I tried we tried to explain things like eastern kind of a few years ago, went through a thing with a death. And so I got a few little kid books or whatever to be able to read to him. And now I can read those to Norrie and Will and I I think explaining things and making it so that they know, like, I feel like it was kinda taboo. Like, you go to a funeral, like, people die. That’s what goes on in life. Well, you still need to process it. Like, a dog dying, you still need to process it. We had a dog die a year and a half ago. Like, we needed to process it as a family because it was kind of traumatic. So I feel like that’s helped me try to explain things to my kids too.
Victoria Volk: Do you have any tips on how you did that with your children?
Patti Herr: Let them ask the questions and no don’t let them feel like questions are bad or any question is bad. Just, like, let them ask the questions and give them the answers that they need and don’t fuel the fire, but don’t make it taboo. Don’t make it like, you shouldn’t talk about it. Hush hush.
Victoria Volk: Right. Be honest. Help your children be emotionally honest. You know? Yeah.
They’re angry. Let them be angry about their dog dying. You know, that’s okay. You know,
Patti Herr: My oldest is very an an empath and he feels a lot. So I have to do all the emotions with him.
Victoria Volk: That’s good. I mean, and there has to be space for that especially as a child who takes kind of in everything around them. It can be very over the world can be very overwhelming. Even the news, you know, it’s like you’re watching the news and you talking to your friend and your friend maybe went through something and then your dog dies, you know, like all these sad heavy things can really be devastating to a child who is highly sensitive. And so thank you for bringing that up, that not a lot of parents really consider that their child isn’t a cry baby. Mhmm. You know, because a lot of parents might say, quit being a cry baby. Mhmm. It’s you they’re just sensitive, more sensitive.
Patti Herr: You had a half meet, they had a father, passed away a few years ago, and Well, I guess it’s been a year a year and a half. And he he said, that’s so sad. And, you know, I said, well, you just need to be a good friend. You need to be there for him. And So I think that I mean, he asked a lot of questions about that too.
So he feels a lot.
Victoria Volk: Any resources that you have found, that you have utilized yourself other than grief recovery or anything else that you’d like to share?
Patti Herr: I really haven’t. I don’t use money. If I do, I would go to, like, Pinterest and sometimes there’s worksheets or something, but
Victoria Volk: for the kids.
Patti Herr: Oh, well and so I I had put it out there because Easton was very interested on on death and everything. And so I put out there, like, on Facebook, what people did. And they I can’t I have the book in one of their bookshelves, but there is a book about death. It has it’s like dinosaurs and stuff and kind of explains things. And I think I asked my pastor to ask actually, I did. I and I said, well, can you talk to him about it? Like, is there like, can he ask you questions and but I got this book, and then he did some research and gave me some other book titles, and I don’t have those at the moment. But on me but yeah. So I did go to my pastor and ask him and We have driven around cemeteries before and talked about things too. So
Victoria Volk: And even art — Yeah. — allowed children to express themselves through art. Yeah. Play Play Doh crayons, colors, watercolors in that way too.
Patti Herr: We got memorial flowers for the dog.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Easton and his dad saw them in the store, so they got her memorial flowers. So
Victoria Volk: that’s good.
Patti Herr: He still talked about her. He talks about the cat that passed away four years ago. So he remembers a lot.
Victoria Volk: And how old is he now?
Patti Herr: He’s seven.
Victoria Volk: Old enough to understand.
Patti Herr: Yes.
Patti Herr: He’ll he’ll say, I miss this person. I miss this person. I wish I could have met this person like he knows.
Victoria Volk: And so many adults will underestimate what children truly understand. You know, I was eight when my dad passed away and people just didn’t think I understood. You know? It’s like, okay. Well, you see your dad. Yeah. You see your dad, in a coffin, and then, you know, he’s put in the ground, and then you don’t see him anymore. It’s like okay. Well, I understand they’re not in my life anymore, and that’s really sad. You know?
It’s like, don’t tell me I don’t understand. You know?
Patti Herr: Your mind’s understanding at five six seven, you definitely were understanding at eight.
Victoria Volk: By three years old —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — About 75% of how to respond to life.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Well, in that three, that’s when he was asking about death. So
Victoria Volk: Yes. Exactly.
Patti Herr: Very important.
Victoria Volk: And I’m glad this came up too because it’s been something that I’ve I’ve said before, I think, on a different podcast episode, but I need to put resources for books, for children, and stuff on my website.
Patti Herr: And you need to have a class for children too.
Victoria Volk: I can’t actually work with children. That is that’s creating a thing. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And you have to take another class. Right?
Victoria Volk: Well, I can work with the adults of the children. So there’s the program helping children with loss but it’s for the adults to help the adults work with their own children.
Patti Herr: Okay
Victoria Volk: And that’s through the book, actually, this might be a good resource for you when children grieve — Mhmm. — is the other companion book to the grief recovery method is when children grieve. And are helping children’s loss program is based on that book. So that would be a resource for anyone listening. But there is actually a program that I had a guest on my podcast, and she started an organization called shielding hearts. And I’m going to look, I have just I’ve told her and I plan to look into her program because this program, you actually work with the kids, but it’s not it’s kind of along the lines of art and things. That you bring it into schools, the school system. So I’m gonna yeah. I’m gonna look into doing that. So it’s I’m not a licensed social worker, so that’s where some yeah. Get get the poo poo on that. We’re having kids, but It is a passion of mine, for sure, because I’ve I’ve been there, so I understand that children just don’t necessarily have that person in their life where they can feel like they can open up and share. Because oftentimes what happens too is let’s say dad or someone close to you is dying or sick and if or passes away and your your child is asking, what about grandpa? And then you don’t want to talk about it because it makes you sad. So then your child doesn’t talk about it because they don’t wanna make you sad. So then what happens is nobody’s talking about it.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And it’s this thing that you just don’t talk about. You don’t you don’t talk about grandpa, you don’t talk about grammar, whoever it is that passes away.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So what are you looking forward to in the next three years?
Patti Herr: Surviving, if we could.
Victoria Volk: Giving them all in school. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. One won’t be, but the other ones will be. Yeah. But just building our life and working still working on our relationships, like even me and my husband, we I mean, we’re constantly learning single day. Like, I don’t think you ever I feel like you learn about your your spouse and everything, but I feel like you just you’re learning together every single day because you’ve some things you’ve never dealt with or, you know, your kids are getting older, so then situations change and you just learn I mean, we’re learning constantly together how to handle things and how to deal with things. And I just see us having so much fun as a family. And also, I know in the next three or ten years, probably we’re gonna be seeing some losses in our family and that we’re gonna have to deal with, and that’s something that I’m dreading. But it’s just the reality, I guess, and it’s not gonna be fun for any of my family.
Victoria Volk: But, yeah, tools.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yep.
Victoria Volk: And I gotta say too, like, just is there anything that you would like to discuss about being in the trenches of motherhood and, you know, because you can kind of feel like because you weren’t anticipating. Right? You weren’t anticipating them at all. Right? And so, like, now being kind of in the I’ll say in the trenches of it. You know, I was we’re just talking about this and friends and I just the other day. I and I said, yep. You know, people always told me that the days are long, but the years are short, and then it’s so true. It is so true. You know, and when you’re in the trenches of it, it’s like, it’s really easy to lose yourself.
So how are you doing as far as that goes if you’re open to sharing?
Patti Herr: I go through my little tips where I’m like, I can’t keep this house clean and I get my little crying moments where I’m like, I’m a bad mom and blah blah, but the last couple of days, I realized, like, the house can be messy. It will get clean be cleaned someday, and we’ve been outside all day because it’s been so beautiful. And that to me is the best medicine and that’s what’s what makes my kids happy, what makes all of us happy, and dad is busy working in the field, and so we miss him terribly, but we just we play and we have fun. And when we can be with him. We do, and we have fun with him too. And life’s just crazy, and I would say when it slows down, but it never has yet. It’s just crazy busy and I just let them enjoy life and we play and play and play and eat and eat and eat and clean and clean and clean and clean and I just think you have to just have a little bit of faith and hope and everyone tells you, like, just relax. You’ll have kids, you know, when you’re going through in fertility, and that’s not always the case. Sometimes, you just have to take life into your own hands and believe in science and god put science on this world for a reason. And I think that IVF was a beautiful thing for us and our baby was a beautiful thing for us, and the first one was also beautiful because we didn’t think we were ever gonna get that chance. So I just think life is beautiful and it’s short and you just need to really enjoy it and it’s too short to be miserable. Obviously, you go through those moments where you’re not miserable, but you’re just sad. And I feel like you have to be sad to you. It’s a balance. You can’t always be happy happy happy, I guess.
Victoria Volk: Well, and that can be exhausting too to put on that front of all — Yeah. — like, you know, it’s I’m fine. Yeah. And there it that takes effort and energy. It’s a waste of effort and energy instead of — Yeah. — it takes less energy to be emotionally honest, like, No. I’m not good today. I kinda need a mental break.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Some well, my kids need mental breaks sometimes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Right? And from each other,
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s the hard balance too. It’s like that was the hardest part I think for me too. It’s like trying to find that individual time.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s like that firstborn gets so much attention. And then the second one comes along and it gets a little harder. But that third, it’s really tough.
Victoria Volk: Throws a wrench into things.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s really tough to, like, to feel like you’re giving each child what they need. You know? So that you can feel like you’re failing in a lot of ways. But
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: you know, you do the best you can and
Patti Herr: and lean on each other. Like, you have friends, you have other moms, or dads, or whatever, like, lean on people, you know? Because they’re going through the same thing. They just maybe don’t show it as much or you don’t think they do or, you know, you might think you’re alone.
Victoria Volk: I just heard of a cup there’s a couple of working moms and they exchange, like, their day’s off, like, they’re watching on each other’s, like, that’s how they do it. They they’re killed. They’re both newborns or new oh, they’re new parents, and they’re that that’s what they do. So they just you know, they’re raising each other’s kids. They’re doing it together, and I think that’s a beautiful thing that you can find in friendship. You know, if you have that support. And if you don’t, find it. Create. Ask. You know, how many people are so afraid to ask hey, I have this idea. What do you think? You know, if we just you know, here’s one tip that I’ll share with you. And it is something that we still talk about to this day, our kids talk about it to this day is so I don’t live on a farm. I never have. But a friend of ours did and or does. And we would have what’s called farm days.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So everybody brought their kids to the farm and like the rest of us had, well, two of us were lived on farm two of us lived on farms and two of us were city gals. Right? But, anyway, everybody brought their kids the water, water games, whatever they did, and we just got together, like us women, moms, got to talk and catch up. The kids got to have fun doing whatever they were doing. It was the best. It was the best. And, you know, we did this in the summer sometimes. And Those are the best memories. And oftentimes, they weren’t even planned.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.Victoria Volk: Hey, let’s just have a farm day today. And it doesn’t always work, of course, you know, because things and the phases of life. Right? You go with the phases of life. Now, most of like, there’s yeah. Two of us now. Two of the four have about three of the four have day jobs outside, you know, like, we have places we need to be and things we need to do, so it doesn’t always happen. But That’s my tip. Create a farm day. Ask the girlfriends, you know, especially the other friends that live on farms. Just get together, bring the kids, make it a
Patti Herr: We have a crazy idea. Sometimes, we go to the zoo with all of our kids and we’re like, why did we do this? But then in the end, it’s really fun for them. Yeah. They might cry on the way home because they’re so tired. But
Victoria Volk: But that’s what I’m saying. You don’t even need to drive anywhere. Yeah. To, like, take them out anywhere. You need to, like, mess with the strollers and the diaper bags and just come together —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — one spot and just let them explore and find bugs.
Patti Herr: We do try to get together with friends, but it’s I mean, everyone’s so busy. It’s kinda we just need to and that’s my thing too is, like, you just gotta make the time.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Just ask. Yeah. And I you know, a friend of mine too. She was like, you know she’ll ask me and I’ll say, ah, I just I can’t today, but And I told her just recently too, I’m like, you know what? This was a good idea. We went kayaking. She’s like, I was like, this is a good idea. She’s like, I guess I just I said, just never stop asking.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t planned. It was, like, she was she wanted to go. So she’s, like, hey. I’m I wanna go, Kaye, do you wanna go? Yeah. I’ll go. You know? It’s Mhmm. So I think a lot of the times it’s the spontaneous things that is where the best memories are made. So that’s my suggestion to any mom just get together with the girlfriends. It’s important. It matters. It makes a difference. And
Patti Herr: You need to make time for yourself too.
Victoria Volk: That’s true too. That’s true.
Patti Herr: Get a babysitter. Don’t I know it’s expensive and I know, like, oh my gosh. I have to have it babysitter watch my kids, but get the babysitter because you need to have your own time, you need to have date nights. Like, we don’t definitely do don’t do an update switch we will someday when the kids are older. Right now, we just we’re focusing on our children, but get the babysitter.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And speaking of which, people might be listening to, like, your house is really quiet for three kids. Do you have a babysitter?
Patti Herr: This summer, I got my littles into daycare for two and a half days a week. So they’re in daycare today. And at my older one, I made him out of the house for a little while. He might come in here in a little bit. I told him a half hour, so that’s about coming up rather than that back.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so that’s good. I mean, that you’re taking your own advice. Right? I mean, it’s just one day a week. You know
Patti Herr: I do work at McTwist, the Dairy Queen in town one day a week. So I I get an adult interaction.
Victoria Volk: And that’s important. And that is kind of you time. That is mental health time.
Patti Herr: It is. Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. It’s only for, like, six hours, but I love it.
Victoria Volk: It’s something to look forward to to get out of the house. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Just Yeah. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And the fact here, like, I need to do this and I need to do that.
Speaker 0: And leave the house without a diaper bag.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. Or I mean, could I forget a kid? Or
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, I’m so glad things have really just the sun has just been shining on your life and it’s I’m so happy to have been able to catch up with you today. And thank you for sharing what’s been up with you. Yeah. And you know, I do offer alumni groups.
Patti Herr: And she made it to somebody.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, and I could do it online now too. I don’t have to pack a diaper bag. So yeah. So I’ll have to maybe get something like that lined up in the future. Yeah. Is there anything you prefer? Yes. there aren’t. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Patti Herr: I don’t think so. Just live life to the fullest because it’s so short. You never know. You never know.
Victoria Volk: You never know. That’s for sure. Especially, as you just described, you know, that accident that happened. Right? You just you don’t know. You can leave your house one day and not walk in the door later.
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: So
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: All I was gonna ask you too. Do you ever go out to the farm where your husband’s work and have a picnic with the kids?
Patti Herr: We go out there because we have a horse named Marlin, and the kids wanna go see the horse all the time. So we go see Marlin quite often.
Victoria Volk: Okay? But where your husband is farming, though. Yeah.
Patti Herr: Oh, yeah. We well, we take him food, and I actually have to take him chemically. He called me right before this and said, can you bring me some chemical? Oh, so I’m also farmland. Like, I yeah. And we want to move to the farm someday. So we’ll be out there probably in a few years, I would say.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you’re not on the farm?
Patti Herr: Nope. We’re in town. We live in his grandma’s house. We bought his grandma’s house.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my mistake.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But we will move to the farm his parents live out there, but they’re kinda transitioning. So
Victoria Volk: Well, farm days are in your future, I bet.
Patti Herr: Yeah. So women can come find out for farm days because I plan to have all the things. My husband’s like, oh, we’re gonna have funny farm and I’m like, you better believe it. I’m going to that exotic animal sale and we’re gonna have fainting goats and
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Peacock
Victoria Volk: That’s really fun. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Patti, and it’s been so fun catching up with you. And I wish you a wonderful rest of 2023. It’s halfway.
We’re halfway through. That’s crazy.
Patti Herr: Time goes too fast?
Victoria Volk: Sure does. Well, many blessings to you and your family.
Patti Herr: You too. Thanks.
Victoria Volk: Thanks. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Widowhood |
Elizabeth Catignani | My Shattered Heart: Experiencing Stillbirth & Being a Widow at 27
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
As a mother, carrying and growing another human in the womb for nine months, it is expected that a healthy child will be born. However, for Elizabeth, that is not what happened. Her world was shattered when she realized that she wouldn’t be a new mom overflowing with joy. Rather, she would become a mother with grieving empty arms.
After her firstborn died, Elizabeth and her husband were fortunate to have a healthy daughter. Yet again, her joy was cut short when their daughter was only about 5 months old when her husband was deployed in the Special Forces in the Army.
Her husband owed the military one last deployment and within six weeks of that deployment to Afghanistan, Elizabeth received a call that no military spouse ever wants to receive. Her husband was in Germany with injuries sustained while on deployment. She flew to Germany to be with him, which would turn out to be for his final breaths.
All of that loss within an 18-month period would be the catalyst for her to look for and ultimately create a space for herself and other grieving young widows.
Through a lot of ongoing healing and inner work, Elizabeth did find love again and has a family with so much love to give to. But, it wasn’t a quick, bounce-right-back process either, and being a young widow, who was also still grieving a son, would pose its own challenges, too.
There’s truly no way to skirt around grief. You have to feel it.
RESOURCES:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of Theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30-plus year graver and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talk about the weather? Let’s get started.
Victoria Volk 0:56
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices today is another fantastic conversation with my guest, Elizabeth Catan, Yanni, and she is a certified creative grief coach, health coach and author of creative grieving a hip chicks path from lost hope. After several unexpected losses at the age of 27. She has passionately dedicated her life to helping others experience healing, joy and purpose after loss. She established her creative wellness, a blog and online platform as a supportive space for women to become empowered on their journey and healing and wellness from grief to hope. She believes in the transformative power of the human journey. In her sacred stories. They’re sharing her own story, she hopes to light the way for others seeking a healthy, heart centered and fulfilling life. Thank you for being here. And I’m on that train with you. Thank you so much for having me today. It’s great to be here. Absolutely. First of all, people often find themselves doing work that they didn’t project themselves doing, like ever, like you never, you can plan your life, five years, 10 years ahead, or you have goals in mind. But life always throws wrenches and surprises and sometimes even gives you things and gifts and experiences that are beyond your expectation or wildest dreams. But sometimes we have experiences that really shape and change us and bring us to a new path. And that’s where you have found yourself. And so let’s start with what your goals in life were before these losses that you bring you to grieving voices. What was your life like before
Elizabeth Catignani 2:40
I had been a teacher prior to my losses. And I was actually, in the process of getting my Master’s in Counseling I had known I’d always wanted to work particularly with women just around mental health issues. And so it’s interesting how I was already a little bit torn on this path of wanting to help others and work with women through life transitions and healing. And so I find it interesting that it’s happened shortly, I was just finishing up my first year of my masters with this program. And all of a sudden, shortly after that is when my losses happen and which completely turned my life upside down. Prior to that, I’d had a pretty typical, go through school, meet my husband get married. And so up until I was about 25. I hadn’t really understood or known real trauma in my life.
Victoria Volk 3:45
What changed for?
Elizabeth Catignani 3:46
When I was having my firstborn, I had gone through a very normal, healthy nine-month pregnancy. And I was 2526. And on my son’s due date, after about a 14-hour labor. He died from a court accident and that was absolutely life-shattering. And it was just the biggest shock upheaval in my life. And my husband and I really had to find a way together to grieve that loss. And we were working through that process a little bit. I had started going to support groups and counseling. And he had his own way of breathing, which he was in the military. He had a little different take on feelings and talking about them a lot. And so I found my own outlets to cope with my grief. And thankfully we were fortunate to have a healthy daughter after we lost her son. However, when she was only about five months old, he was deployed. He was in the Special Forces in the army and he owed the military one last deployment andonly about six weeks in, he was serving in Afghanistan, I got a call that he had been injured. And shortly after that I was flown over to Germany. It was something he couldn’t recover from. He had been killed on a mission. And I was there with him for his last moments, but I had to leave our baby girl back in the States with my family. And I couldn’t believe yet again. I was just like, What are the odds? What is wrong with me? Why me within an 18 month period, losing both a son and then my husband who had been my rock, through grieving our son, we had that shared grief, and then to lose that person who could understand that loss better than anyone. I was like how to like read both of these together, it was impossible. That was about I was 27. So that’s almost about 13 years ago now. And it’s so sensitive, I’ve just been on this crazy, difficult, beautiful, intense, amazing journey that only grief can show you really. And shortly after his death, I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I decided that I wanted to really work with other women who were grieving, and meet other women who are grieving because I felt so alone, different than everyone else around me. And I didn’t know how to move forward, I did, the first thing I could was to think I need to connect with other people who can understand I sought out some support groups had a hard time finding one that I really connected with. So I actually started my own on meetup.com, when I think it was starting to become popular around then. And I was called Soul widows, particularly for young widows, because a lot of groups out there were not really geared towards younger people. So I began meeting amazing women, I just was like, wow, there are other young women out there like me that have actually lost their spouse or their partner. And I formed new friendships and relationships that way. And it was really a stepping stone to starting to live again a little bit and pick myself up off the ground, just trying to get through that first year, while also trying to raise our daughter on my own. Thankfully, I had family to help. But it was just very daunting, very overwhelming. And it’s been teaching me a lot throughout my life. Those experiences.
Victoria Volk 7:36
Have you fell in love again?
Elizabeth Catignani 7:38
I have incredible love. Yes, I’ve been happily married for about six and a half years now we’re married, we have a beautiful five year old daughter as well, my oldest is now 13. I never would have imagined over a decade ago having the life I do now having been able to find love and create the family that I always dreamed about. So at one point, it seemed literally like it would never be possible. Or I could never risk getting hurt again, or opening my heart again. So I’m definitely in a place that I am extremely grateful for. But it was a lot of hard work to get here. It was a lot of facing the pain and the heartache and the realities and just digging deep because there’s truly no way to
Elizabeth Catignani 8:27
Skirt around grief, you have to feel it, you have to live it. And it’s something that I know like with our society, particularly, it’s not a comfortable thing. And it’s not easy for people to know what to say or how to support your how to talk about it with other people. And so I think it’s so important in those early years to really find those that you can trust, find a community find someone that you can really just pour your heart out to. And knowing that they’ll trust it, even treat it with honor, respect, and because life is certainly not all fun and joy. And as much as we love that. So I think it’s good to have these conversations, because I feel like so many people deserve them and deserve to know that they’re not alone. And that there is support and that there are other people that have suffered and found their way out. We need those stories, because otherwise, it feels very hopeless. So I’ve tried to through the work that I’ve done share like this is this was my experience. This was my hardship. And there is another side that you keep going and at one point shortly after I started my support group I had co founded it was called the respite. It was a Center for Grief and hope, a local nonprofit with a couple of other women. And that was also just such a profound experience for me. And we ran that for about four years. And we helped tons of women that came through our doors. We provided counseling services and support groups and it was just such an uplifting experience to feel like I could do
Elizabeth Catignani 10:00
Take my story and turn it into something beautiful by giving to others like being of service was such a huge piece to just finding purpose again, and feeling value and feeling like worthy just even if it was helping one or two people, here and there, it just filled up my heart and I felt, okay, I can still create some beauty and some life and reconnect with myself. Because it takes a while to recover parts of yourself after a loss, you might feel like you’ve lost yourself completely sometimes. And so being able to just reach out and connect with other people and help helped me with my kind of get some identity back as well.
Victoria Volk 10:43
What do you think you discovered about yourself? Through those years of healing that you didn’t maybe believe about yourself before.
Elizabeth Catignani 10:54
I think I certainly realize that how capable I was of just allowing vulnerability, and letting that be my strength. And I would always kind of before my losses really looked to others to help me through certain things. And I was the youngest child in my family. So I always felt had other people to let that die in the way and show me the way. And as I went through this process and learned more about myself, I realized I have a lot more strength and wisdom than I think I gave myself credit for just listening to my heart and trusting that I would get the support I need. If I reached out for it, I became a little more assertive a little more less afraid in certain ways, realizing how short life is and how precious every moment that we have it goes so quickly, it just flies by so fast. And I think I wouldn’t have had the guts before to go after certain things. I don’t think I would have had the guts to go after a nonprofit or to meet to start a group for women. I hadn’t really seen myself in a leadership role before. And so suddenly, I just had this fire in me of I think it was just all the built up feelings and emotions. What’s the grief, you have all of it, it’s no particular order, you have the anger and the sadness. And it’s just such a roller coaster. And I think I just had so much bottled up, I just needed to do something creative with it. And so I really just follow that creative energy. And I was like I need to build, I need to do something with this. Otherwise, I’m just gonna implode, being able to channel that and just something that could hopefully empower other people on their path. That just became such a light for me. And it just filled me with a lot of hope. And it brought me a lot of peace and joy, especially through those earlier years. And it brings me a lot of deep peace today to still be able to help in any way I can.
Victoria Volk 12:55
What do you think is different from you or in other Grievers that you’ve met along the way? Because I think to myself, like how can there be some people, some Grievers who experience really incredible, deeply painful losses, and they end up in this really dark hole for decades. And then you have this other person who seems to from the outside, like bounce back and not bounce back? Because I hate that and he referring it to that way. But like you said, there’s like a shift. There’s like the light switch goes on in your brain, and you just choose differently for yourself. And so what do you think was it for you, that shifted in your mindset? Because really, it is a mindset to go from probably not being able to get out of bed most days to getting out of bed?
Elizabeth Catignani 13:54
Yeah, I did. I will say I did spend at least the first six weeks after my husband died in that it was painful to wake up. I just wanted to be sleeping all the time to escape the feelings. And it was a very gradual process. So it’s not like I just bounced up in a few months. It was like, Oh, I’m gonna go do all this stuff. And I’ve got all this energy. It was absolutely nothing like that. It started out slow. I remember I found a meeting group online for young widows. It was like a safe within my own little space. And I was able to still connect with others online and see what their experiences were their feelings. And that was my way of inching back into the world a little bit. And I took my daughter I wouldn’t be like seven months old. I would take her out on a walk at least a few times a week. That was my getting out into the world and I would be relieved if I didn’t run into a single person. As I went on these walks, and I just wanted to be in nature. I wanted to be around just the trees and the animals. Doesn’t feel like I could just exist and not have to worry about any sort of judgment, or what anyone else might think of me, I didn’t want to even see other families being happy, I felt like I really needed to protect myself. And so it was a very gradual process. I’ve slowly started after that doing one on one therapy. And I probably went through another six months of that before I felt any sort of energy toward even creating something myself with the support group. But I really think it’s such an individual process. And I think that for me, at least, the personal the one on one therapy, I think, was really what helped me the most initially, to not just want to close off from the world and shut myself away, and retreat into the darkness, because I did have someone challenging me to stay living to stay in the life helping me feel and remind me that I have purpose, and that I’m still a whole person, despite my losses. And I needed to have that being a constant reminder. Because if you don’t have someone rooting for you, or allowing you to process, I think it’s a lot harder to get out of that state of just complete defeat. And just feeling like allowing the last almost does fully encompass you and to not see the other side to get into that darkness. I think finding that support early. I remember my sister found me and my therapist because I wasn’t looking, I was in bed. And she found her for me, she said, I think you should go try to see this woman and see what happens. And I was like, Okay, you can drive me because I was so overwhelmed. I couldn’t even drive myself, like says at the beginning. So I literally had my sister take me to my counseling appointments to start with. So having that push was very helpful, necessary early on. And eventually, that evolved into the support groups and meeting other people that I’ve met women in the support groups I ran, there were some widows that would come in, and they would say my husband died five years ago. And I’m just now ready to talk about it. I’m just now ready to share my story. And they hadn’t felt that they had a safe space to do that before that. So it’s really a such an individual process. I know they all say the first year is foggy. And then second year is this, but it’s very personal. It depends on a lot of circumstances and what kind of support you have around you. And I was so grateful that the women had showed up that had waited a long time because they found a lot of healing. After just having all this stuff bottled up for so long. There’s no right or wrong way to grieve. There’s no handbook, that can say this is where you should be on this date, or this is how you should feel at this point. And I think it’s just so important to give ourselves grace, for that, at some point, reach out for help, especially if you do feel like you’re getting into too much into the darkness. There are amazing resources out there.
Victoria Volk 18:04
To piggyback on what you said, because I took me over 30 years. So that’s my personal experience, but anybody that I’ve ever worked with, man, I wish I would have done this sooner. Because if you really think about it’s never too late, and it’s never too soon to like work through your grief. And now although I completely 100% agree there is no timeline, and time just passes. It’s what you do in that time. What I think about is, the opportunities, the life that you miss, when you spend your days in fear of what going to that place will be like, and I think that’s what keeps people stuck is the fear of what that’s going to feel like, what’s gonna happen after that. Okay, I work through all this stuff. And then what do I think that’s really what keeps people stuck in their grief?
Elizabeth Catignani 18:42
I totally agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. And I still certainly struggle with anxiety to this day, I always have fears that something will happen to my loved ones to my children, it’s very easy to go to those places in my mind. And so it’s really been a lot of personal work with a lot of almost when I find myself going, they’re going to tools that I’ve learned whether it’s an affirmation or breathing, or maybe I have to make a phone call, I still have a life coach to this day that I absolutely adore. And I speak to her once a week. And just getting back to a place that feels safe and grounded. My affirmation for this year was I am safe, and especially with this pandemic we’ve had going on that, of course adds another layer to it and there’s been so much loss over the past few years there are so much suffering right now. And it’s easy to get caught up in that energy and to feel overwhelmed. And on top of that, so many of us have been isolated. I’ve been basically a stay at home mom, the last couple years during this whole thing with my kids and not seeing many people, there was a time, I wasn’t seeing much family. And that can really just heighten that anxiety and that fear. And so being a space around me that I feel comfortable in having books that I can turn to, that are soothing, having podcasts that I can listen to, to support me getting out and taking a long walk, or getting some form of movement and moving the body. There’s just so many incredible ways we can channel that fear and channel that anxiety so that it doesn’t overwhelm and take over. So that’s something that I have certainly spent years working through after my losses, and it still pops up very frequently. And I’m always looking at new ways to manage it. And there’s nothing wrong with that you all have to find stay creative with our resources, and maybe something will work for a little while. And then you’ll find Okay, doesn’t work for me anymore. So I need to try something else. And so just being open to trying different ways, because yeah, especially after having the worst happen, it’s very easy to just assume like, that’s always going to be the situation to go there. So it’s a lot of self care, a lot of checking in pretty much daily with yourself and saying, What do I need right now? What can I do right now for myself?
Victoria Volk 21:34
I think with grief, it’s really about getting back to the basics. Just get that in people. When I mentioned meditation, sometimes it’s some guy. There’s another one that says meditation.
Victoria Volk 21:46
But just the basic back when, before the internet before, all the stuff that we have in our lives, people would garden, and they would garden for hours, or they would be out in the fields or they would be laboring, and then they would come they worked hard. And then they rested. And we just have lost the basics of balance in our lives. And I’ve really had to learn that myself. But yeah, just what does balance look like for me today? Looking at your calendar and looking at those special days coming up? Or the anniversaries? And how can I balance what I know is coming emotionally? How can I balance that with self care,
Elizabeth Catignani 21:52
I think doesn’t have to be a big complicated situation. I think especially people that are grieving, I feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves to do things perfectly and like to honor an anniversary perfectly, or it can be very simple. It can be so simple. Like every year for me anyway, when you mentioned anniversaries, I was thinking about how every year is so very different in the way that I experience it and the feelings that come up. And there are some years where I don’t feel like I need to make a big announcement about it. I don’t need to go on social media and say, this big monologue about my memories or my feelings. And there’s some times when I just really want to, to honor it personally and not feel like I have to go blasting it out there. And I feel like some of the women I’ve met, they feel like they have to honor them a certain way. Or some people love that some people want to do the balloon release, or they go to the memorial site, or they write poetry and their honor, it’s whatever serves you, it’s whatever you need to help you through that day. And you can honor your loved one in a way that feels right for you. And I used to feel so much pressure and the anticipation would just overwhelm me. And I realized, why am I doing this, I don’t need to prove anything to anyone, I don’t need to put on the show for anybody. And so this past year, some of the anniversaries I passed through, they were just very private for me. And that just felt energetically the best for me, I would go on a walk or I’d just talk to them and say a few words and feel their energy. And that was what felt right at that time. So I do think that we can easily overcomplicate grief and what we think we need to do, or oh, this meditation is supposed to that so I have to go do that meditation or it just doesn’t feel right or you’re feeling like you’re forcing it, then it’s probably not what you need, then maybe you just need a relaxing bath or you need a nap. Because you’re exhausted grieving is exhausting. So I think we all need to give ourselves a little grace with, like you said, just going back to some basics. You have a green thumb spending some time in your yard and it doesn’t have to be this fancy thing
Victoria Volk 24:47
For some people gardening like flowers, or having a flower garden nurturing something to full bloom. That can be very meditative. It can be a meditative experience for someone to So meditation is now don’t just sit up. It doesn’t have to be so structured. Like, there’s so many different ways to do it. And there’s no right or wrong way either. And yeah, if you have trouble turning off the monkey brain, it’s a practice. It’s not going to happen the first time and then you think you’re doing it wrong. And then you’re judging yourself Self shaming yourself, and then you don’t do it. Again. It’s a practice, just like everything is a practice, self care is a practice committing to it as a practice.
Elizabeth Catignani 25:27
Yes, I love what you’re saying, though, one of my favorite sayings. It’s a grief course that I took, one of the instructors said, it’s a practice, not a perfect. And always repeat that to myself, when I feel like I’m not doing something correctly, or I’m not treating this, I’m just like, okay, just chill. It’s a practice, not, nothing’s perfect.
Victoria Volk 25:48
I think, here’s a thought that came to me it was listening to you is that it sounds like to me that you had some really clear boundaries for yourself. And what came to my mind as well as being a young widow, I would imagine that pressure that you felt, whether externally or internally, that you felt being a young widow, I can imagine that you would have to feel like you have to have this extravagant show being young, it was a young loss and honoring that, and he’s was the father of your child. And if somehow, like just that self judgment that we feel whether it’s true or not, you still might feel that and I just wanted to highlight the fact that you had very clear boundaries. And so what would you suggest to those who may be really struggling with that? And how to maybe implement those boundaries with others? Because that can be really tricky.
Elizabeth Catignani 26:43
Yeah. In the beginning, it definitely took me a while to learn how to establish those boundaries, because especially with being that he had been in the military, and the military is just one big community. And there was an online Facebook page set up in his honor. And just a lot of people wanted to grieve together, honor him together. And while that was beautiful, it could also be very overwhelming for me, because I felt like I had a lot of eyes on me, how is she handling this? What is she doing next? Like? How do we continue to honor and it was just very much on some levels too much for me, because I was just like, I really need time to process this on my own. Instead of handling and hearing about everyone else’s grief. On top of just trying to deal with my own Did you feel like you were expected to show up for that stuff? Yeah, there were ceremonies to attend. And every year, there’s ceremonies that are offered for us to attend. And in the very early stages, I showed up to these and I was just going to complete days, I was just out of body experience, going to some memorial services. And it was just almost like attending funeral after funeral in my mind. And I was just like, I can’t keep reliving this over and over again, it was just almost debilitating to a degree that at some point decided I needed to take a little bit of a step back and not push myself that I have to show up at all these events. And while I’m grateful that they are happening, and that he continues to be remembered and honored, I also have to remember to respect where I’m at too. And know that because I can tell at this point, like in my grief, how I’m going to handle something. And so sometimes needing to put up boundaries where you’re like, Okay, I appreciate the invite, I need time for my own reflection right now and my own self care. So not always feeling like you have to be present at everything, which of course that comes with a dose of guilt easily. But it also just comes down to your own sanity, and just having to give yourself grace to grieve in the way you need to because no one else can fully understand your position and what you’re going through. And what’s your feeling when my late husband died, we had a private funeral service here locally for him. And it was another separate service in his home state. And I was so weak because I had traveled to Germany to be with him. And I had just gotten back. And I still had my six month old daughter waiting for me to take care of her and I was sick and weak. And I remember having to make that decision that I cannot travel to the other state to do both services. So I asked them to have one for me here so that I could have a proper memorial for him here. And because I just was in no state to keep going and just having to make those decisions was very hard. I worried about what people would think very much and down the road. There were times when I had to speak up and tell people be more vocal about what my boundaries were, which was not comfortable. I like to be a mediator. I like to keep people and I have a history of people pleasing. And so having to step out of that people pleasing role and and say I’m not comfortable with this or that or they’re would
Elizabeth Catignani 30:00
Even some friends that I lost along the way, because they didn’t really know how to be there, and they felt awkward and uncomfortable. And somehow those relationships just fizzled out. And normally, I wouldn’t have probably let that happen. But I just knew I’m like, I just need the right people around me right now. And so that might mean losing some people. So that was an interesting experience to just having to accept that not everyone’s going to be able to stand by you. But those that can. They’re incredible. And I have amazing friendships that I made. After those losses. There’s the people that can stand with you and that are gold.
Victoria Volk 30:37
Yeah, they say you’re a son of the five people, you surround yourself with happening with grief, it’s especially important to really refine your circle around, you don’t feel better. After you leave the presence of those people. Maybe they’re not right for you at this time. Maybe they will be later and people fade in and fade out. And that’s okay. One aspect too, I hadn’t really given much thought to until our conversation. I’m a veteran too. But I wouldn’t have imagined I never gave much thought to the fact that if you lose a spouse in the military, you have your family, your spouse’s family, but yeah, then you do have this extended military family and it is a Brotherhood or sisterhood. And yeah, I just never really thought much about that. And how that could influence maybe be more added stress of what you just described. Thank you for your sacrifices as a spouse, to someone in the military. I know the family sacrifices, too. But there’s so much goodness in what you just shared. You’ve shared the challenges, you’ve shared a lot of the things that helped you in the boundaries and things that helped you shift your perspective gave a lot of tips, was there any advice that you personally received from someone that I think you even said that to there was that quote, you mentioned practice, not a perfect.
Elizabeth Catignani 31:26
Yeah. And then also early on, I was really fortunate to meet this. She was my first friend that was also widow, she had lost her husband, probably, I think it was just a few months before mine had died. So we were, we were around the same time period as far as that, but she just really gave me permission to be where I was, with what I was feeling, she reminded me to, if I just needed someone there with me, and they didn’t have to say anything, if I just needed a presence that she would do that for me, I can remember her showing up to my door one day with a big chocolate milkshake. And no plans, I am just here, just letting you know. And she would sit with me and just if I needed to talk, she would just let me talk. And it was just such a nice companionship to have because it was just reminding me that where I was okay. And to have just that feeling of support, even if that person didn’t have to say anything being there. Because you know, after that first influx of people calling or cards or just that initial reaction to the loss, it can feel like all of a sudden people just have moved on with their lives and forgotten. And so just having someone there for after that period of time was just incredibly therapeutic to know that even though maybe the rest of everyone else is moving forward, I’m still dealing with this. And it’s okay. And I’m allowed to be in that space still. And so just giving ourselves permission to do our journey, it’s going to be messy. It’s going to be interesting, it’s going to be up and down. But it’s each our own journey, and it should be honored.
Victoria Volk 33:42
And we all agree that 100% There’s no half. And I’m curious, what was the difference or similarities too between the grief that you felt after the loss of your son versus the loss of your husband?
Elizabeth Catignani 33:56
I don’t think there was a huge difference other than it just felt like an additional emptiness. Because when that person leaves that just the whole world feels empty.
Elizabeth Catignani 34:05
And I can just recall that sense of just complete loneliness and emptiness because having had that shared grief with my spouse, and then suddenly not even having him to talk to about the death of our son anymore to have that one person that could really connect with you on that intimate level of shared grief. That was just like another just complete stab to the heart. I don’t think there was a lot different other than just feeling that additional, all those extra losses because the main loss, you just lose so much else. There’s just so many layers of loss that goes along with it that you wouldn’t have even considered that yeah, just that emptiness. Like because I remember my arms just feeling empty, empty after my son died empty after Brian died and I just felt very lost and in both situations, and one is not worse than the other. They’re both awful in their own way.
Elizabeth Catignani 35:00
And so it was just okay, starting over again. Like how many chapters? How many books am I going to have, I never would have imagined that I would have had so many by the sage, but it’s just, we can’t control. We can only control how we react and how we heal and how we respond. And just that was one of the huge wake up calls for me it was how little control I had over life in general, just wow, things just happen. It doesn’t matter. If you’re good or a bad person, they just happen and you just can’t drive the ship. But you can choose how you manage the aftermath.
Victoria Volk 35:31
Comes back to how we first started this podcast and how we can plan our lives and rarely do our lives turn out how we plan on grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative. It’s what we say in Grief Recovery. And that’s why your losses stack up like luggage in your body or box, if you have a backpack or rocks, we carry that stuff forward with us those losses, all the losses, you need to like move that out somehow. And you said implode, that’s what we say in Grief Recovery, too. It’s either you implode or you explode. Let’s say I gave you a mic and you just have the floor of the world. What would you like to scream to the world and wish people knew?
Elizabeth Catignani 36:20
Oh, there’s so much I could say, I guess one of the things that first comes to mind is just life is just so short. And if we spend more time in just the space of love and gratitude, and you never know what tomorrow is gonna bring. You never know what’s around the corner. And just really holding on to the small moments, that’s really where I find a lot of my joy these days is just those little moments, whether it’s my daughter giving me a hug, or saying I love you, or it’s not about what you do, or who your title or whatever projects you’re working on life is now. And and it’s just who you are that really matters and what energy you give to the world that truly matters. Because we’re all in this I feel like we get so caught up and do with have to do things a certain way.
Elizabeth Catignani 37:14
Or we’re always comparing, or we get so wrapped up in social media and comparisons and other people’s lives, how they compare it, it’s just such a waste of time, it’s just being in the now such a challenge these days. But I think it’s just so important to find those moments throughout the day, to ground yourself to remember where you are and who you are, and creating those connections with the people you love the most. And that mean the most to you just getting into the heart of life, I feel just being aware of those moments, because it’s just when I look back, I think the most random, small moments are what I hold the good hold on to like just memories, I never would have thought would be a big deal. But nothing grandiose is just sort of just remembering to have some gratitude for just getting to wake up each day. And even if things don’t go great, having gratitude for the small moments of things that are going well and your health, just those things just are something that I really tried to focus on so much in my life now are just those small moments. And like, oh, the sun coming in through the window right now is beautiful. And I can feel the warmth and just having a moment with that. Because that’s like happening right there.
Victoria Volk 38:28
I think to what you ended up doing for yourself, was you connected to yourself first, which then enabled you to fully connect with others, and maybe even to receive love again, because I recognize that there was a timeframe in there after your husband passed and before you have remarried. Did you make that conscious choice, an intention to give yourself the time and space before you decided to be open to receiving love in that way again,
Elizabeth Catignani 39:06
I did definitely focus on trying to figure that out. He did date a bit afterwards, of course, I went through several relationships that were not the healthiest feeling situations. And I realized afterwards that I had needed more time for myself to heal and reconnect because I had been reaching for something outside of myself to fill that void. And I always have told other widows there’s no timeline of like when you can start dating again or looking for searching and you need human connection you want to feel in partnership. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s also harder to find a healthy version of that if you are not healthy within yourself. And so I did experience a lot of let downs and find myself in situations where I was just because I was just trying to rush I think and so it took some some lessons they’re for me to realize, okay, I need to step back and reflect on where I’m at in my grief and my healing, and give myself this a little more space before, I’m able to invite that in. Because I wasn’t giving out the right energy, I wasn’t receiving the energy I needed and deserved, that’s when the right guy came along, for me, the right partner. And that’s also another area where I think we don’t need to not be too hard on ourselves, because you’re trying to grieve and trying to find a new relationship and trying to navigate relationships are complicated in general. So add on the loss of your spouse before that, and it’s just like, very overwhelmed parenting and finding the right person that’s going to be a good co parent with you match that style. There’s so many layers and levels. So it can be very complicated. And it is about really having to connect with yourself first, and remember who find yourself and who you are. Because that’s what’s going to attract the right person to you. And so that’s something it took me a while to figure out. So that was like a whole other several chapters of my life, figuring that out with a man Oh, my gosh, I have to go back into this dating world. Again, nobody wants to have to do I just remember dreading it. But yeah, after I gave myself a little more space and paid attention to what I needed, I was able to find a healthy relationship again.
Victoria Volk 41:21
So you intuitively knew because you were dreading it, right? And we don’t listen to those calls in our bodies, like your voice in your head was saying, no, not No, not yet. You’re dreading it, you’re not ready. And so we just try to push that voice down that intuition? And how do you get in touch with your intuition? Is you connect to yourself? Yeah. And so definitely the word that comes up for me when I heard you say, where I heard you talking about that as patients. It’s just Yeah, patience with yourself. Yeah, the process.
Elizabeth Catignani 41:54
Yes. And patience, I’ve always had a struggle with patience.
Victoria Volk 41:58
But just do many of us do, and especially in grief, and especially with losses so close to each other. And really, the loss of a child. I just had a conversation yesterday with a woman I was crying the whole time, I can’t even imagine I have three kids I cannot imagine, and nobody else to and that’s why it can be so uncomfortable for so many people to put themselves in those shoes.
Elizabeth Catignani 42:24
Yeah,
Victoria Volk 42:25
And I think that’s why so many relationships, or friendships do fall away, because it’s like a mirror to them.
Elizabeth Catignani 42:30
Yeah, nobody wants to have those thoughts or to know that can be a reality, and I can’t really blame them. So yeah, being able to find a partner that could be strong within himself to know my story and to accept because I because afterwards, I was like posh, who’s gonna want me with all my baggage and this story that I have, and all this heartache. And that’s a lot. I was like, as a single mom, it’s a lot for somebody to take on and was like, who’s gonna want this. And I had to learn that those things were not my faults. And it’s just my story. There were things that happened to me, it didn’t mean that was who I was, or that I was a terrible mess or anything, it was just honoring that this had been my journey, and that I was doing the best that I could, and should just be an honor of that. And it’s possible. There’s people out there, the man I’m married to, he’s got a huge heart, and just fully comfortable within himself and can completely honor this was my story, I can talk about my husband and not feel awkward about it. If it comes up, I think it’s important to be in a situation where you feel like your story can live freely and be honored. And to not have to feel like you have to hide it or to tuck it away or feel ashamed. If it’s something that just happened to you. It’s life, we all do the best we can create the best out of our situations that we can. And so I think that’s important to realize, too, is that you’re still worthy, you’re worthy of love, you’re worthy of joy and happiness. No matter what kind of loss you’ve gone through. You still deserve that.
Victoria Volk 44:11
I want to touch on something because I think it’s very important. Your daughter had a loss to despite not knowing him only through what you share with her and through pictures and words and videos and stories and things. What would you like to share about that experience, like parenting a child through that? It’s one thing for a child to know who they’re missing, but then to not know, really different type of grief experience.
Elizabeth Catignani 44:30
It definitely is. And I’ve just had to figure that out as we’ve gone along the way. I’ve always like when she was very little I had a picture of him and her in her room and always open to talking about it or if something comes up that reminded me of something he might have said or done and I’ll say it to her I’ll say oh, your daddy Brian would have thought this or done that, or I would tell her stories of when she was a baby and just little moments of him with her that I can recall. And so it just comes up naturally in conversation on different days. And so I do what I can to keep him alive for her his presence there. And I have a beautiful scrapbook like a memory book that I made to have, like I have from his childhood, all the way up till when he died. And there’s like newspaper clippings and photos. And so it’s something that as she grows older, I think she’ll process the loss in different ways as she ages and reaches different stages of her life. Because I know it’s not as maybe real to her right now, as she’s like this mysterious dream. I feel like in a way, so I’ve just as best I can just made it comfortable for her to bring up whatever, there were some beautiful like pictures and objects made in his honor, like this beautiful carved wooden flag that she could put in her room, or she can grow up and take with her to her own home one day, or like a painting that he bought that I have. And then she’s also read my book that I wrote. So she really does know a lot of the story. And so that’s just always been important to me is that it’s a safe thing to talk about that it doesn’t have to be ever uncomfortable. And that’s just been my approach. And then she does have an older half sister that she’s five years older, she does remember him very well. And so they’ve had a good relationship. And I think she gets a lot of nice stories through her older sister too, which is great. But yeah, I think it’s really about just keeping the subject open, keeping his memory alive. And she asks about him now. And then if she has questions, or it’s evolved throughout the years, but I’ll mentioned today’s anniversary, do you want to talk about anything or you want to honor in some way? But yeah, it’s not the same as if she had known her. We don’t really we can’t have those conversations about oh, remember when this was done, seeing how she grows with it, and evolves with it over the years, and I just tried to keep the conversation open.
Victoria Volk 47:09
She also lost a brother too.
Elizabeth Catignani 47:12
She did yeah. And I do mention him a lot as well. And that’s another thing that I think over time, it’ll become a part of her in a certain way. And she might honor it in her own way as she gets older as well. So yeah, I think it’s important to just to be real about it just as painful and uncomfortable. And sad as it is, this is what happened. This is part of your story, too. And I think it’ll help her figure out understand herself maybe as she gets older.
Victoria Volk 47:41
The experience of a child griever versus first experiencing grief in adulthood, it is very different. I’m a child Griever. So you grow up with that knowledge like it. And it helps you I can look back now, but it helps you to mature really, in ways that you didn’t ask for. But it’s a very different type of feeling of grief. I think it’s an intimate part of who you are. Essentially, what is your son’s name?
Elizabeth Catignani 48:13
His name was Turkey Brian is a nickname for an Australian teammate that Brian had overseas.
Victoria Volk 48:21
We like you name so I actually think that’s really cute. Well, yeah.
Victoria Volk 48:27
I didn’t know how to ask that. I’m gonna bring this up on the podcast, because maybe other people are wondering that too. But I wanted to ask, what was his name? But he’s still in your heart. Right? What is his name? And so that’s why I asked it in that way. So for anyone listening.
Elizabeth Catignani 48:40
I love that. Yes, he’s always they’re always skills president, he’ll always be your Tookie will always be my son. And it’s something that he made me a mom, you as my firstborn. And wherever he is, because it is something that whenever you get asked, Oh, how many kids do you have? Or it depends on the situation. But most of the time, I’ll just acknowledge, oh, I’ve got two daughters. But there’s that party that’s just actually have three kids. I’ve got a son too. And it’s not always the most I’m like, Oh, do I really want to go there and the depending on who I’m talking to do I want to bring this up? Because it’s instantly Oh, you know, like a little bit shocking to whoever you’re saying it to. And so that is a sadness that I carry people see me with my two children, but I really have three. And that will always stick in my heart because yeah, I want him to be acknowledged. And yeah, it’s like if you’re in conversation with somebody out of nowhere, you don’t really know them. It’s something that I’m not always just gonna drop it. Oh, I have a son in heaven or an afterlife and got these two, but I know that’s a pain I’m sure a lot of parents carry that have lost a child.
Victoria Volk 49:57
could say I have two living daughters, and I have one angel son. And don’t feel the need to say anything.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:09
I like that.
Victoria Volk 50:10
Yeah, then you let them off the hook, but yet you’re honoring.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:13
Yes. That’s a good I like that. I like. That sounds very nice. I’ve said that.
Victoria Volk 50:23
Yeah. Good. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Elizabeth Catignani 50:26
I think so like this has been a really lovely conversation. And I hope that it’s been helpful to those ever listening. But yeah, it’s been an honor to be here with you.
Victoria Volk 50:39
Thank you, it’s been my honor to hear your story. So thank you for being my guest. Where can people find you if they would like to connect.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:47
I have a website. It’s called hercreativewellness.com. And you can also find me on Instagram, at the same handle, and also my book, Freedom breathing, you can find that on my website. And also, it’s available on Amazon. And the audiobook version is going to be available, I believe, near the end of the month. So I’m excited about that.
Victoria Volk 51:15
We didn’t talk about this. But if you can briefly describe what is the difference between a certified creative grief coach and say, someone like me, I wouldn’t say I’m a coach, either. I don’t know what I am grief guy, I don’t know. But what is the distinction you could share.
Elizabeth Catignani 51:32
So what we really focus on is with the creative side of expressing your grief different. And it’s interesting, because I know some people may feel like they’re not creative at all, I have a creative bone in their body. But I truly believe that anybody has creativity within them. And it doesn’t mean you’re an artist, or you have to be focused in any medium or anything, but just finding different ways to process your grief. And it can be through different techniques like whether it’s through a diagram or a drawing or colors, or doing something outside processing through movement, it’s really about trying different tools and seeing what fits for you. There’s just so many ways we can channel our grief. And I’m always looking for new, unique ways that resonate with me. And that might help someone else because it really is a mind body, spiritual experience on so many levels. And so really addressing all those different areas of our being as a whole through this integrative process, I think it’s very important because we really do hold, we can carry it a lot in our bodies, we can feel it or aches and pains, one of the women that used to work at the respite center, she was a grief massage therapist, so she specialized in helping people that had gone through loss. And she had a very specific technique for giving them a massage that was very in tune with certain anxieties they might have, or fear of touch that they might have, or setting the mood a certain way with music or lighting and things like that just approaching it differently. It’s things like that, that I find amazing, and that they’re even available. Cuz there are so many different ways to express yourself through your healing. And like for me, like this past year, I really got into photography. And I took a photography course online, and I just found this amazing piece and capturing flowers and different seasons and just working with color. And it just being able to capture memories in that way. So there’s just so many unique outlets that we might not typically think about when we can process what we’ve been through and also to find joy in the moment. And so yes, I really to emphasize that we’re all creative in some way. And that using our creativity, I think it’s a really important way that we can help ourselves on our healing path.
Victoria Volk 53:58
And it’s a muscle that you have to flex have to lose it in order to like let it come out.
Elizabeth Catignani 54:05
Definitely, yeah,
Victoria Volk 54:07
Actually, there was a traveling project that was going to the different military outpatient clinics. And I had seen it when I had a doctor’s appointment at the VA one time. And what it was veterans would have, like do like a paper mache of their face, like an imprint, and they would paint the face in or as a reflection of what they were feeling. Oh, that’s the face that they presented to others. What does that look like? What am I? How am I showing up with this pain on my face? I just got goosebumps again thinking about it because especially with military service, it’s loss and there’s so much loss. I just thought it was brilliant idea for a project.
Elizabeth Catignani 54:53
Wow, that’s really that’s incredible.
Victoria Volk 54:55
Yeah, I could see that with like trauma victims even just any grief, right? Just any kind of grief I’ll try and find the link. I don’t know what it was a couple of years ago, but it might inspire the work that you’re doing with people. So find the link for you. And if I do find it, I will put it in the show notes too. Because if it Yeah, out there, I think it’d be really see how other people are channeling their creativity in their grief.
Elizabeth Catignani 55:24
Really, I love that.
Victoria Volk 55:26
Anything else you’d like to share?
Elizabeth Catignani 55:27
I don’t think so. I think I tried to share a lot what was on my heart and yeah, it’s been an amazing conversation.
Victoria Volk 55:35
I agree. Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Corchele Smith | A Mother’s Empty Arms
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Empty Arms Syndrome is a phenomenon most often associated with stillbirth. However, as Corchele’s story illustrates, feeling an ache to hold your baby is a very real feeling even if you deliver a breathing child.
Ten hours after delivering Breklyn by emergency cesarian, Corchele and her husband were faced with a loss no parent should ever experience. And, the fact that it was completely preventable only added to their heartache.
Corchele, and her former husband, turned their heartache into purpose after a chance gift helped transform Corchele’s empty arms of suffering into arms of action and purpose.
Whether you have experienced infant/child loss yourself or not, I hope you listen to Corchele’s transformational story of heartache to meaning and how her family continued to honor Breklyn in their lives.
I don’t believe we ever fully understand the impact our presence has in others’ lives, but as Breklyn’s life shows, even a brief presence in the physical plane can create ripples.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
Victoria Volk 00:56
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Corchele Smith, she is the founder of because of Breklyn , because of Breklyn is a nonprofit whose mission is to help families who experienced pregnancy infant and child loss. They do this by getting as many unstuffed bears into the hands of those families who experienced this devastating life event. Thank you for being here and for sharing your story today.
Corchele Smith 01:27
Thank you for having me. It’s such an honor.
Victoria Volk 01:29
So, tell us about Breklyn.
Corchele Smith 01:33
Okay. So, Breklyn is my daughter who passed May 23 2016, 10 hours after birth. Her death was not expected we did not know anything was wrong, until we lost her heartbeat. And then we got we went into an emergency C section. And I think we knew more at that time after she was born that she would not be here in a physical form on Earth for much longer. So, we will not we the doctors and the staff did CPR. They did blood transfusions, plasma transfusions and kept her on life support until I was able to wake up from just the medications of the C section. And I was able to go see her. And then it wasn’t very long after I had seen her that I I just knew I call it mother’s intuition. I just knew that she was one I could tell she was suffering on life support. And I just knew that she wasn’t supposed to be here. And so I asked them to pull her off of life support. And she actually lived for two hours off of life support and was more alive than she was in the eight hours on life support. She was cooing and she was just like, I call it talking. She was just talking the entire time. And it was the most beautiful two hours that I have ever been given.
Victoria Volk 03:29
I have three kids and I so much of your energy is spent right like growing this baby and you feel the baby and you know, you develop this bond that you haven’t even met the child yet. But you have this bond. And that’s something that we as women, I think not take for granted. I don’t think that we necessarily take it for granted. But maybe we kind of do in a way. I don’t know. But it’s this beautiful gift that we’re given that men will never understand. Right? They’ll never get to experience it. And we have this bond well before they’re even born and I just I can’t imagine knowing that that’s going to be taken away. And so my my heart goes out to you and your husband, your scale family do they did they find out what happened?
Corchele Smith 04:31
They did. There were rumors and stories, and I didn’t get a full answer until my post op appointment. And we found out that when you, so we went into the hospital on a Friday, thinking that my water had broken and when they they swapped and tested, and it came back negative. Well, we found out later that it was a false negative, so my water had broken. And I’m not sure if you’re familiar with this, but when you’re when a mother is in labor for too long, she can start developing an infection. And that infection can get to the baby and cause problems. It’s called choreo, amnio itis. And typically, the hospitals catch it, they give you an antibiotic and everything is great. However, because it was a false negative, and I was sent home on Friday, I was in labor on Friday, I was in labor on Saturday. And I was in labor all of Sunday until on Sunday, I was just like, something is not right. I have to go to the hospital again. And I was admitted Sunday night, because I was actually contracting, that test still said that my water had not broken. And so, you know, it’s a test that is cheaper. So, insurances like it, it’s quicker. So, the hospitals like it as well. And but it’s not effective. It’s not as effective as this other test that they could use. And so, we did finally find out my OB did, you know, kind of sit me down, and this is what happened. And, you know, just our his condolences, and, you know, everything that a doctor says during during that time. So, she did die from choreo amnio itis, from, from me being in labor for too long,
Victoria Volk 06:38
That’s probably even more heartbreaking. I mean, I can’t imagine hearing that because it could have been, it’s so that’s so preventable, right?
Corchele Smith 06:46
Yeah, it was it. Yeah, to just think if I would have I, I mean, I can’t really say like, been more aggressive, because we rely so much on the medical field. But if maybe I would have been more aggressive and you, you need to test again, or I don’t, I’m not going home or, you know, whatever, if I would have pushed to stay, she would be here today.
Victoria Volk 07:12
You touched on something that is very real, for us women and mothers is just the guilt. And
guilt is an intent to do harm. And I know you didn’t intend to do harm, and you know, you didn’t intend to do harm. But I imagine there was still grief there, obviously, because how do you not feel like if I would have done this, or I would have done that, just like you said, but how did that then? Like, how did you reconcile that? And with your spouse as well? Like how, you know, how did you get over that aspect?
Corchele Smith 07:49
I did it for the longest time. I, we him and I haven’t talked much about like guilt, we try not to go down the rabbit hole of like, what if, but I always felt like this. This death, her death was somebody’s fault. And I knew that I knew that the hospital didn’t like mean to I knew my doctor didn’t mean to. And so once you start crossing off all those people have, well, it’s not their fault. It’s not their fault. It came back on me any end even though I know now, and I knew then that it wasn’t my fault. Who else was to blame but myself and so I just stayed in guilt for the longest time. And then I just I spot I spiraled out of control. Guilt turned into depression, depression turned into apathy, apathy, turned into wanting to be suicide or not wanting to be suicidal, but suicidal thoughts. And it was very, very dark for like two and a half years, because I just lived in those just low vibrational feelings for the longest time and I finally when I hit finally hit rock bottom and started healing that was like the first thing that I had to do was recognize that it wasn’t my fault and rewrite that story and also forgive myself for the story that I had made up in my head. It was really just like writing the story of what I believed and how is this not true? How can we disprove this? Well, because none of this is true you you know you can’t feel guilty anymore. You can’t carry that guilt and shame around with you anymore. And that’s how I truly started to to deal with it and cope with it. heal from it.
Victoria Volk 10:02
Did you have other children at the time, too?
Corchele Smith 10:04
Yeah. So Brocklin has an older sister. And at the time she was, let’s see, she was four. And then later we had, she has a younger brother now, but we just had one at the time of Breklyn stuff.
Victoria Volk 10:22
And it’s like trying to process what just happened. And all those feelings in the grief, and then still trying to like to put on the mom hat, while still having to address all the physical changes, of not having a baby, you know, you still have all those physical changes that you go through after giving, you know, having a child I can’t imagine.
Corchele Smith 10:50
And then you also because I was full term, you also have the, you have to pack up the crib and the clothes and the dresser and that nursery, you thought you were bringing your baby home to needs to be taken down. Because unfortunately, you don’t have a use for it anymore.
Victoria Volk 11:11
What did help you in those, I know you mentioned just really addressing that. It wasn’t your fault, and really trying to forgive yourself and what helped you anything specific that helped you during those times?
Corchele Smith 11:26
In the beginning, my faith, and my belief in God helped me to, I guess, I was taught that everything happens for a reason. So in the beginning, that helped a ton, like she’s with God, and I will see her again. And then when that wasn’t enough, then I decided to, there was time for help. And I saw not a therapist, but I got a life coach. And with her, I really, really did the work and started. I mean, it was just like one thing after another we did. So, I did so much healing in such a short amount of time. I think I cried every single day for like those five months that we worked together because i was i Tears are shedding of emotion. And I was just shutting emotions left and right. And it’s also healing for the heart to cry. And so, I was just and to be able to feel emotions as well, because with grief. I felt like I’d never experienced grief before. And so, I felt like there was a timeline on it. And so, you know, like a year and a half when I still miss her and I’m still grieving her. And I felt like I needed to cry. But I wouldn’t give myself permission to cry. Because I didn’t feel that that was appropriate. Like I would literally get inside my head PowerShell it’s been a year and a half, you need to get over it you need to move on. This is ridiculous. You need to stop crying about it stop moping about it. So again, I changed that story. Here I am five years later, literally yesterday, I missed her. And so, I spent the amount of time I needed to cry and gave myself permission to do that. And then I I got on with my day my grief will never, I have learned now that there’s no timeline for grief, my grief will never go away at all. And I’ll continue to grieve. And so it’s about giving myself permission to feel the emotions when I need to feel them. But also knowing that I can’t stay in those emotions because it will bring me back down to those low vibrational feelings. And I like to live life in those high vibrational feelings.
Victoria Volk 14:06
So, tell us about the nonprofit. And when did that start?
Corchele Smith 14:12
That started a few weeks after Brooklyn died, my aunt gifted me and unstuffed bear. And she said, when you’re ready, take it and stuff it. And I hope that this will bring a little bit of healing to you. And kind of like a memory of Breklyn and she suggested you know; you can put her own family pictures or whatever you want. There’s no expectation for it. And I will be completely honest, I was like this. This is the dumbest thing. Like why and I think I was kind of angry too at life at the at the universe. Like I don’t want a bear. I want my baby. And so, I put the bear away I’ve ever and I honestly had every intention of throwing it away. I’m not Not gonna lie. But just one day I was like, okay, I’ll just give it a chance and see what happens. So, I stuffed it. And when I missed Brooklyn, I would hold it and lay. One night, I woke up with empty arm syndrome. And I picked up my bear who didn’t have a name, that at the time, and I and I bounced her, and I hugged her and I seem to her I did everything with my bear that I would have done with Rachlin, and it brought so much healing to me that night. I just so much comfort. And at that moment, I was like, I don’t care if people judge me at all. This is all I have of my baby. So, if I want to hold my bear, if I want to take my bear on vacation, I am going to and so I did and through time, we named her Breck, she’s our Breck bear. And she goes everywhere with us. She’s family now. I love her. So much. I love her as much as I love my children. And it was Breklyn Angel bursary was coming up her first angel bursary, and I wanted to do something to remember her I just didn’t really know what I didn’t feel like a balloon release was good enough. And somebody close to me suggested, just ask the question, what helped you the most, so far during your grief journey? And I was like, well, Breck did. Like, that’s, that’s a given. And so, we decided to ask, you know, Brooklyn’s grandmas, and grandpas, and aunts, and uncles and cousins. That didn’t, you know, because you can’t buy her a birthday gift, would you consider donating $10 To buy a bear. And then we can give these bears to hospitals for future families that lose children, and they loved it. And so we did that the first year. And then we got really good feedback from the hospital that we donated to. And so we decided, you know, the second year, we would do it again. And this time, I kind of like posted on social media a little bit that I have some friends also donate. And then you know, the third year happened again. And this time, I actually had friends ask if I was going to do bears, again, as a couple of people kind of like these bear things. And the more bears that we got out, you don’t hear from the families every time somebody gets a bear. But we had heard of one or two stories by then and, and these parents were so so thankful for the bears. And so we just kind of continued to do it until we were like, um, we’re, we’re basically running a nonprofit. Why don’t we just continue this? Why don’t we make it official? What’s stopping us? Like, we’re having the best time doing it. It’s it’s the best way to remember Brooklyn. Like we as how how do I say this, like, we can still parent her and be her mom and dad through this foundation, she her memory is still alive with every bear that we give. And so it just, we didn’t plan it. It just kind of fell into our laps, and we ran with it. And we’ve been really, really successful with it up to this point. And we can’t we can’t wait to see what else is is in store for because of Brooklyn.
Victoria Volk 18:54
I love that story. I love how it came just organically just and it I felt I can just picture it when you’re sharing with this bear. And in that moment and how much healing it did bring you I can just I could just feel I get goosebumps actually when you share that. So, confirmation chills. Yeah, and I think too, it’s like, it’s so easy to shut off ourselves or like stop ourselves from allowing our hearts to go there to like to even attempt to feel some sort of connection. And that’s probably really what helped you establish and really feel that connection to her even though she’s not here physically, right?
Corchele Smith 19:41
Yeah. In fact, just the other day I had somebody ask is all the pain and suffering that you continue to do because I I will hear of stories, and it will trigger me. And so, we’ll go through the motions again and they asked, is that all worth it just because just for us? nonprofit. And, you know, I said absolutely, absolutely, it is worth it because I’m helping so many families and it’s not even me. It’s, it’s Breckland, like Brocklin is helping so many families and these bears are bringing such comfort to these families in such healing. And I just I, once it’s started, I can’t imagine giving it up. And I have felt more close to her than ever. The more work I do on the nonprofit, the closer I feel to her, so although I do get triggered, I, I’ve never felt closer to her in my life. And it’s I wouldn’t want to go back to waking up every day feeling so disconnected to from her. And just relying on my faith of, oh, well, I’ll see her again. Now I wake up every day, feeling solely connected to her. And it’s beautiful. I don’t have to rely on will one day I’ll see her again. Because I can feel her every day. She’s in my life, every single day. And so yes, all of that pain and suffering of the few stories that affect me is totally worth. Totally worth it.
Victoria Volk 21:35
I know, too, that you’re our our you’re a Reiki Master, correct? And so we can speak a lot about the energy of grief and all of that, but I think it’s a perspective of understanding that you can choose to be in that low vibrational experience in in your day, which can be that is valid, right, those feelings of deep sorrow and just feeling really low. They’re valid feelings. And you need to let express those some in some way. But to be able to also feel connected is healing in and of itself.
Corchele Smith 22:20
Yeah. And I mean, going back to what you said those low vibrational feelings when they come up, you really essentially, I mean, just speaking from, you know, the perspective of Reiki and energy. You really have to feel those and let those out because then they become trapped. And I mean, you know, and I know trapped emotions, then walk our chakras, or get stored somewhere and start causing issues and they cause unbalanced and stuff. And so yes, absolutely feel that deep sorrow, that deep agony when it comes up. Don’t Don’t trap it into your body, because that doesn’t do any that doesn’t do any good.
Victoria Volk 23:04
So, I’m curious, did the Reiki come after that? After the loss of Breklyn?
Corchele Smith 23:06
It did. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 23:09
How did that come about?
Corchele Smith 23:13
Um, I don’t even know. I don’t think I even remember because it was only just a couple years ago. And really, I started with energy. And then energy, then opened up my perspective and broaden my horizon of the chakras. And I was like, oh, well, what is this teach me more about the chakras? And then I thought like, it was just beautiful, like, oh, okay, so, you know, like, third eye chakra throat chakra if I need to public speak, I’ll just like, rely on my, on my throat chakra. And then somebody was like, well, they can be blocked, or they can be closed off. And I’m like, well, okay, well teach me more. And so then I, I would, I would learn more about how they can be closed. And then and then I asked the question, how, how do you activate them? If they’re off and blocked? How do you unblock them? And how do you activate them? And they’re like, oh, Reiki, okay, will somebody please teach me what Reiki is as well. And so once I started to learn about it, I was like, and I honestly got certified or signed up, because really, honestly, I didn’t, I didn’t want to like do Reiki on other people at all. I just wanted to do it, like have the knowledge of it and and be able to utilize it myself. And those close around me, but the universe had different plans for that. And so that’s originally why I signed up because I just wanted to be knowledgeable about it. I wanted to be able to do it if I needed it. And then it was like, two weeks before I graduated. The download came in Have you need To use this on clients, you need to practice this on, you know, the public or whoever comes to you. And I was like, Okay, well, I guess I’m gonna be doing this then. And so, again, just an organic snowball. Definitely, I had no idea what it was I didn’t even know like about energy worker, anything before Brocklin. And it’s just since then, it’s just been one download after another. And it’s been beautiful, really.
Victoria Volk 25:37
That has been my experience to actually I think the, the, the theme that I’m connecting between your story and mine is, once you and I, through our grief and everything, once we started to actually process and heal, it opened up all sorts of doors and opportunities, and really, probably even more so connected are each of us individually. And I think this is what happens. I think this naturally, I’m really interested in studying this more in Grievers who get to the other side of it because I feel like once you actually process grief, like truly address it, you really get in tune with your intuition. I think you are taught I think grief itself is is just like the I describe it like a veil that covers your face. You don’t see yourself clearly in the mirror. You can’t see others clearly. You don’t see situations clearly for what they are. It’s you’re stuck in your head. You can’t tap into the heart like they’re like, that’s really I speak a lot about that stuff. And yeah, I to it was like What’s Reiki? I kept hearing about this Reiki thing, and I’ve heard that so many times, like how did you get into Reiki? I don’t know. It just found me. And I got every Reiki Master I know is like, oh just kind of kept knocking on the door, you know, and it’s you know, you’re gonna answer like what you know.
Corchele Smith 27:09
Reiki found me. I didn’t find it.
Victoria Volk 27:11
Exactly I yeah, I think that’s, that is the common thing I hear most often from other Reiki practitioners is Reiki phone me. Yeah. And it’s the gift that keeps on giving. Really. So, I’m curious then like through what has changed in your life with your grief, since introducing Reiki.
Corchele Smith 27:39
Oh, everything my entire life has completely changed because I don’t know about you. But it didn’t stop at Reiki. For me. I wanted to know more. And so, I’m currently in school to be a crystal healer, through Reiki to incorporate, like, be actually certified to incorporate crystals. Um, and so I would have never done that. If it wasn’t for Reiki, I would have never done Reiki if it wasn’t for Breklyn . Um, I also three through coaching, I have found being coached I should say, through being coached, I have found a great love and respect for coaches and those who coach and so I have also stepped into that role, as well. And I have I stepped away from religion, but I’m more spiritual and connected than I have ever been in my entire life. Looking back at the before me of Breklyn I can honestly say I don’t know who that is, because I can I live completely different now completely different. And even just those who knew me before and after, like they’ve said the same thing. You’re just, you’re just completely different now, and like I feel like I keep repeating myself, but it’s just, it’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful thing and kind of going back to what you said before grief. I really do feel like that something tragic has to happen in somebody’s life for them to really start to connect or want to connect with their heart and with source divine God universe, however that looks like for you. You really, and it doesn’t have to be death. It can be a tragic loss of a job that causes grief, it can be loss of a pet that that is grief as Well, so however grief comes to you I, I really feel like we as humans have to hit that those low vibrational feelings of grief and go through those to really connect because I think you can agree. We, we can’t pull out of those low vibrational feelings by ourselves, you. And like I said, its whatever source looks like for you whatever higher power looks like for you, that pulls you out whether that’s connecting to yourself connecting to your heart connecting to the Divine, whatever that is. You can’t get out of you can’t get out of those alone. You just in my opinion, you just can’t get out of those low vibrational feelings by yourself. You have to have something to connect to to really pull you out.
Victoria Volk 31:02
Yeah, we don’t heal in isolation.
Corchele Smith 31:03
No, no.
Victoria Volk 31:04
There’s a reason why when I started before, I started this podcast, I had a vision for the artwork, and it was beautifully created for me by an illustrator and she just brought my vision to life, but it’s me on an island with a megaphone. It’s like, you know, that is grief. That is how you feel as a Griever you feel like you’re alone. You feel like you’re screaming, dude, like you want to scream for the rooftops, but no one’s gonna hear you anyway. And you feel like you already are screaming and no one’s hearing you anyway, right? It’s it’s a very isolating feeling. And because of all these lessons that were taught as children, no fault to the parents, it’s just this generational pattern that repeats, we grow up believing things about grief, being you know, grieve alone, is one of the myths of grief. So I’m curious to learn. What were the stories and beliefs and patterns and things that you learned or what in your upbringing? You said you hadn’t really experienced grief before Brooklyn? What was your childhood like that shaped?
Corchele Smith 32:20
I grew up in a in a really religious LDS family. And we just, I grew up with that knowledge of God and, and what the LDS religion looks like, and their beliefs. And that’s, those were my beliefs as well. And, you know, I had my great grandpa’s die and distant aunts, and uncles die as a child, but nothing. I never lost any of my grandma’s grandpa’s. I, I was blessed. I didn’t, I didn’t lose a parent at a young age or a sibling, any young age, I just, we didn’t I didn’t grow up with pets. And so, I didn’t have to go through that. You know, I mean, I had goldfish, but they last all of five days. And then you go out and get new goldfish. And so that that wasn’t grief, I just go get new goldfish. And I, it’s not that I was sheltered from grief. I just it, I guess I was just never given the opportunity, if that’s what you want to call it to experience, grief. And because of that, my, my parents didn’t have the opportunity to teach about grief, either other than what you learn at church, or, you know, through the scriptures. And so, it. It was, I mean, I’m very blessed that I didn’t have to experience that. As a child. I mean, there’s pros and cons to both. But yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t have to deal with it until Brooklyn. And I think Brooklyn was really the one who showed it for a lot of my family. Like, I think it I mean, I speak for them, but I think it was the first loss that my mom had to deal with. That was very close to her. It was the first loss that my fiance had to deal with, like he hadn’t ever lost anybody either. Through his childhood, it was the first loss that like my siblings, also experienced as well. So, so her dying, it was really the first time that somebody like really close to us had died. And so, we were all of us were just kind of thrown into it. And we I mean, we all have different stories we’ve developed we’ve all grieved, grieve differently. But yeah, we just never are childhood was, I like to say like anybody else’s you just sports in school and a fairly good household, my parents were split. And, you know, both households were just very religious, and we never had to deal with grief at all. Two parents were divorced. They were Yes. And I, it’s funny, you bring that up because I didn’t feel a certain type of way, I am the oldest of three kids. And my sister was very, very young when they split. My brother was like, also young as well. So, we didn’t really feel grief that our parents split, at least not in the present. Now that I’ve done some inner child work, work on myself, that has actually come up, their divorce has actually come up. And I and I realized that I was experienced experiencing grief. But I didn’t know what that was. Nor did I know how to express it. And so, I bother with it, I bottled it up, which goes back to those trapped emotions, they got trapped in my body until here I am 25 years later from their divorce, and that divorce has come up in my inner child healing, and I’ve had to heal from that. And so that was grief. But I didn’t know it. And I didn’t express it either. And so, I kept it. I kept it in. I didn’t know it was grief until 25 years later.
Victoria Volk 36:53
I was gonna say, because you’d be the first podcast guest that never had any grief, or to a loss. And I thought, no, it gotta be something.
Corchele Smith 37:03
There definitely was, but it got trapped and didn’t come up until 25 years later.
Victoria Volk 37:09
So, I also want to ask my curiosity. So, if you don’t want to talk about it, absolutely, just let me know. But so, your older daughter? Was that a relationship that ended?
Corchele Smith 37:24
It is. Her dad and I split when she was about almost six months old?
Victoria Volk 37:31
Do you feel like a part of your experience as a child of divorced parents has that? Do you connect any of that experience to the split with that relationship? Or? And also, to like, what, how do you feel like that impacted you? Because then you became a single mom. And I mean, surely there’s grief in that I don’t want to imply that there was.
Corchele Smith 38:01
Um, the relationship needed to end is very toxic. And it was safer for us to be away. And again, I didn’t know what grief was. And so, you know, I was I was sad, but I was more focused on Okay, I have this baby girl that I have to provide for. And so, I was focused on getting a job getting back into school getting us stabilized, and I didn’t have time for grief, I didn’t have time to like, think about the past and how I’m so sad that it it didn’t work out. I didn’t I didn’t have time for any of that I was more future focused. How do I how do I provide for for this baby that is mine and give her the best life so that we don’t end up on the streets. And so we don’t have to live on the streets. And it? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Looking back. There is there is probably some trapped emotions there that have not gotten brought up yet through my healing. But other things have other emotions, bitterness, anger, have have come up. And so I think really after saying it and talking about it, I think I just kept on my emotions just inside unless they were happy. That is one thing that I can say is that I think has to do with religion. And I think it has to do with part of how I grew up. You don’t express negative feelings. You just you have to always be happy. You just have to have Be happy and positive and No, no, you don’t have bad days you don’t. You don’t cry, you don’t get depressed, you don’t feel those negative things. And so if it was a negative feeling like grief is I, I didn’t have time to feel it. And I didn’t dare feel it, because I didn’t know that it was okay to feel negative feelings. And so I just always focused on the positive of everything. And that’s how I was after breath and die to like, I don’t, I can’t feel these negative feelings. I gotta like, be positive about it. And what’s the lesson to be learned in this? And how do we make this tragedy into something beautiful. And that’s really how because of Brooklyn started is that it was like that lesson that beautiful thing. And I think that’s why I spiraled into those negative vibrational feelings. Because I wasn’t allowing myself to feel those negative feelings today. Absolutely. If I just fill in it, I am going to feel it and it has shaped me how I parent my children to I do not ever want them to grow up thinking that they can’t experience anger or grief or sadness or anything like that. I want them to be able to feel everything feel all the emotions that life has. And so yeah, it’s really just shaped shaped me into the mother that I am. It’s an evolution, right? It’s yeah, yeah. ever evolving.
Victoria Volk 41:53
Were there any like unhelpful, or hurtful things that you could share with people to help educate them? On, you know, things that were said to you, because I really very much this podcast is about sharing stories. And it’s also very much about education, too.
Corchele Smith 42:15
Yeah, there’s a few things that come to mind. The first being I had, I’m sure she meant well, but I had a dear friend, come to Brooklyn’s viewing. And I wish that I was making this up. But she asked me when I was going to have another baby. Right then in there. And I was like, What? What? What, what are you talking? I was just like, Oh, okay. And I’m not speechless very often. But I was definitely speechless. So don’t ask when they’re going to have another baby. Like, at any point, really. They they wanted a baby. And so, asking them when they’re going to have another one is literally a reminder that they don’t have that one. And also, if those parents are blessed enough to have another baby, because, I mean, infertility is also very real thing. And so if the parents are blessed with another baby, that doesn’t mean that that baby now replaces their dead baby. And I’ve had so many people, unfortunately, a lot of family that I’ve had to kind of put in their place and educate them on this is so many people after my son was born, and Brooklyn’s younger brother, after he was born, so many people said, oh, like, now you should be healed. Now you’re better now. And I had some people say like, Oh, he’s he takes Brooklyn’s place. Like, that’s great. And I was like, no, nobody takes her place. I’m literally just adding a child into my family. That doesn’t mean we forget about Brooklyn. And that definitely doesn’t mean that I’m healed. And he, he has brought not for me, he didn’t bring healing for me. But he brought a ton of healing for my fiance a ton of healing for him like that’s what he needed to heal is was was a baby, and that’s fine. We all heal differently. Personally, for me, that is not how I healed in fact, I between my suicidal thoughts, and then all my trapped emotions that I was feeling. I had postpartum depression really, really bad after him. And so, you combine those two things, and I I was a wreck and so it didn’t bring any healing for me, but it spiraled me into wanting to get healed because I hated living with all of that. And so, yes, another piece of advice is, if a rainbow baby comes along, that baby is not taking the place of their dead baby. There is also I tell people over and over, there’s no timeline for grief, ever, ever, ever. I am five years into this, and I still grieve. Frequently, I and I always will, because she is not here in the way that I want her here, meaning physical form. And so, and that’s, and that’s hard. I think. We, as humans, when we lose something physical, it’s hard for us because we can’t hug them when we want to kiss them when we want to. And so it’s, it’s very hard for us to understand, if you believe in energies or spirits that they’re still here. It’s, it’s just very, very hard to have an expectation of having Brocklin here physically, but accepting the fact that she’s here, energetically, instead. So, you know, there is, even though she is here, I’m still going to grieve the physical form of her for the rest of my life.
Victoria Volk 46:49
Well, when we talk about grief would actually grief is it’s, you know, loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. Yeah. And anything you wish would have been different, better or more. And with that, each passing birthday and the milestones that come, you’re going to feel that sadness, and that’s okay. It’s, but if it’s crippling you, if it’s this crippling sorrow, if it’s this crippling experience, where you can’t function for days at a time, or weeks at a time, or months at a time, you know, and then they have all these other labels for like, complicated grief, or, you know, they put all these labels on it. It’s just grief. It’s just grief. It is, it’s great. You don’t need a bunch of fancy names and labels, and you don’t need to pop a pill for grief either. And I know, I don’t know about you, but I know you touched on postpartum grief, and postpartum is like a cocktail for feeling like you are on a one-way ticket to out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And was your experience that you got a prescription for that?
Corchele Smith 48:04
No, I am very, I don’t like the pharmaceutical. I just tried to stay away from meds I be I don’t know where this came from. But. But since I was little, I have always believed that you should not put anything into your body. That is not like, I want to I don’t want to say natural, but like medications, I didn’t even like taking ibuprofen, because I knew that my body was strong enough to heal my headache. But if I gave it ibuprofen, then it would start becoming weak. And so when, when Brocklin died, the surgeon because I actually had a midwife, and so he couldn’t do the surgery, we had to have another doctor come in. And so that doctor actually handed me like a prescription for antidepressants. And I was like, I don’t want this, like, I don’t want these names, like you’re going to need them. And I was like, I don’t want them. Because I’ve seen what they do to my close friends and family and it numbs them. And they walk around on autopilot like a zombie and I, I don’t want to live like that. And, and I’m only 26 years old. I don’t want to be on antidepressants for the rest of my life. And so I wanted to go through the waves first, and then if it didn’t work, then I’d go get on pills and with postpartum, the same, the same thing. And but instead I was too ashamed or too afraid to tell somebody that I was experiencing postpartum because I was afraid that that reflected that I was a bad mother, and that I would give my children taken away. So, I, I hit it, I was a completely different person. When I stepped out my front door than I was in, in my home, and my fiance, I mean, bless him. He wasn’t educated enough on postpartum. And so, he didn’t pick up on anything. He just thought, like, I was just moody all the time. And, and so I, again, I didn’t see a doctor, I didn’t get medicated for it. I just, it was just a cocktail for a one-way ticket to get out of here. And my coach was like, my last hope I was like, I can’t go to a therapist, because I know by law, they have to, like, report certain things. So I wanted somebody who was safe, who knew nothing about me, who also wasn’t under contract to report certain things to really like, just let it all out. And, and somebody who like, again, my biggest thing was like, nonjudgement, because I was I like, had so many skeletons and so many demons that I felt like I was hiding, but that I wanted to tell somebody, but I didn’t feel safe enough. And so it was my life coach that I, I ended up, like telling her everything, all the things and shit. Like I said, it really, she really, really helped me. And again, she’s not certified to write a prescription. And so I knew that she’d actually made me deal with it, instead of putting me on antidepressants, which is what I wanted. And it was my last hope, I’ll be really honest, it was, it was my last cry for help. She was my last cry for help. If that didn’t work, I was going straight to my doctor, and I was going to get on meds. But I wanted, I am so stubborn, that I wanted to make sure that I tried everything before I got on meds. So no, thankfully, I did not have to take any prescriptions for any of that.
Victoria Volk 52:13
I lasted a week on it. And I just I intuitively knew to it’s like, there has to be a way I can get beyond this. That doesn’t require me to drug myself. Right, like, yeah. Do you see? I just want to point this out. Do you see how what you intuitively felt or believed as a child has come full circle for you with Reiki?
Corchele Smith 52:41
Yeah, it’s like, it’s so weird to like, I’m just like, really, like it’s just been. So I guess I wouldn’t call it weird. It’s just been so interesting.
Victoria Volk 52:56
I had interviewed a medium. And she talked about the seven-year cycle. Like that we have the seven-year cycle of life, like every seven years, it’s like we kind of get pushed into this process or pushed into a situation or pushed into an experience that gets us to another level in our lives are, you know, to help us evolve, I suppose, in a way. And I know you mentioned in your notes that you also in top on top of the life coach, you did have a medium reading that seemed to help you and regardless of what you believe, I’ve personally had one medium reading, and she was actually the medium that will be also coming on the podcast. But can you share how that helped you?
Corchele Smith 53:52
Yeah, it was three months after I had gotten my coach. And I felt like so we had worked through like forgiving myself through letting the guilt and shame go. But it kept coming up. I felt like and I felt like I couldn’t forgive myself. Because then it meant forgetting about her. And so I needed a way to connect with her. Like I was like Breklyn I need you to send me a sign that it’s okay for me to move forward. And that you know that I’m not forgetting about you that it’s okay to be happy. Because I want to be happy. But I’m afraid that if you see me happy, that means that I’ve forgotten about you. So I just I just need this and now I was waiting for like I don’t I don’t know what I was waiting for a billboard or something and it wasn’t coming and so I was like well Who, who connects with with spirits and my stepdads sister in law, so my, my step aunt, she is actually a medium. And so she was in my childhood a lot, but we fell off. And so I knew that like people could connect with, with the other side and with spirits and stuff. And so I found a medium. And, but I was very, very hesitant. I thought they were fraud. And so I shut down all of my social media at the time, we didn’t have a website. And so I knew she couldn’t look like there. And I, I was like, if, if this is going to be legit, I’m going to make sure everything is locked. Like you can’t see anything, you don’t know anything about my story. And I also did via online, because I had this idea in my head that people will play off of your emotions, like when you nod your head, like she’ll just the medium will just keep going that way. And so essentially, I kind of went into it, wanting an answer, but not believing I would get an answer because they’re all a fraud, right? Like, that’s totally what I thought. And so we did, we did it online. And it was, it was the most beautiful thing. She said things in there that nobody would ever know. In fact, she brought up my suicide attempt that I attempted by myself that I hadn’t told anybody, no, not one. So not even my fiance knew about it. And she brought it up. And I was like, there’s no way like this is real real. And she brought up other things that nobody would know, at all. And so by the time we’re halfway through, I’m like, this is legit, and I’m already balling. And then at the very end it, they talked about when Brooklyn came to her, she wasn’t a baby, she was a woman. And she described this beautiful woman. And so from that I have like, pictured in my head, what she looks like. And I’ve had other experiences with this woman. But also, like at the end, she said, Breklyn has the message of she wants you to be happy again. She knows the pain and the sorrow and the guilt that you’ve been carrying for so long. It’s not your fault at all. It’s okay to forgive yourself. And then she said, Mom, I just want you to be happy, I want you to go back to enjoying life. And there was more in the reading. But at that moment, when she said that, I fell to my knees, and I just sobbed. And I just thank you, thank you, thank you. And I like naturally I just like let my hands out like just like, down though. And it felt like lead bullets just coming from my fingertips all of that guilt that I’ve been carrying for so long. We’re like tripping out of my fingertips, my shoulders just felt so much lighter I I could breathe for like the first time in four years. My whole being just like got so much lighter. And so that reading with that medium one changed my opinion on mediums. They are legit. And to it helped helped me evolve it, it took me to the next level of healing, and I still refer to it almost monthly, and I still get a new message out of it.
Victoria Volk 59:14
I’m glad that that experienced that you had that experience. And again, like I had a really wonderful experience as well. Most of my healing came from going through Grief Recovery. And then I had a really, I’ve had a lot of healing come through with Reiki two from personally, often when I least expected and I’m sure you’ve probably experienced the same like that’s always works isn’t that I didn’t expect like that was out of left field. And so not everyone is going to necessarily have that type of experience. Right? It’s so individual because grief is individual. Right?
Corchele Smith 59:54
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean for anybody listening like me There were a ton of things that killed me medium ship was one of the things I can’t promise, but you know, it will heal. It will heal you; everybody will heal differently.
Victoria Volk 1:00:11
But the thing is, is you have hope you have hope of healing. And as long as you have hope. You’re not feeling like you have a one-way ticket out of here.
Corchele Smith 1:00:25
Yeah. And also believe, I mean, hoping, hoping is one thing, but when you take it to believing, as well, when you really believe that you’re going to get out of this, you will, as long as you do the work, you will get out of it. And that’s the disabled time.
Victoria Volk 1:00:44
That’s the distinction though. To go from hope to believe you have to take action, you have to move your feet you have to book with the life coach, you have to like actually ask for help. Right?
Corchele Smith 1:00:56
Yeah. Oh, yeah. You just you have to take that step. Even if it’s just a baby step. Continue to take those baby steps. You. You really you have to do the work to get out of it.
Victoria Volk 1:01:11
I’ll take that is your one tip. Yeah. Do you have another one? You’d like to share on that note?
Corchele Smith 1:01:20
As far as just hit like, you really have to do the work.
Victoria Volk 1:01:23
One tip for other hurting hearts.
Corchele Smith 1:01:27
Yeah, I mean, I would say that’s like my one up. And I mean, I kind of mentioned it before, just believe that you will get through it. Believe that you will.
Victoria Volk 1:01:41
Was there any one piece of advice that you received? And when it was really the darkest of days for you?
Corchele Smith 1:01:49
Nothing comes to mind. Like, I don’t feel like anything stuck. Really, no, no advice or anything. I I really, really held on to my religious beliefs of that I’ll see her again. And so, it was it was really about one religious belief that that I would see her, again, is what I is what I really held on to you. But there was really no advice that came from anybody.
Victoria Volk 1:02:28
Do you feel like that one feeling though, that you will see her again, that belief? Like I’m just saying in general for Grievers. The thought that comes to my mind when I hear you say that is that if I have this really strong belief that I will see my loved one again, it can actually be taken really, to the extreme of I want to see them today, where you’re then feeling suicidal, where you’re then like, I can’t take this anymore. I want to be with you today. I want to be with you now. And I just want to highlight if you’re having those thoughts. That’s that’s grief that still can be helped. Right?
Corchele Smith 1:03:17
Yeah, it can be and don’t be afraid to ask for help, though. at all you can, once you are there. Do you need help? Whether that’s professional help, or holistic healing help.
Victoria Volk 1:03:30
I’m curious, as you were going through this loss of your daughter, your fiance, like, how did you navigate that? I mean, it’s one thing to like, go through it as an individual as a as a mother, and then individually as the Father and but to was it like this dance between that you just kind of had to like,
Corchele Smith 1:03:53
It was so awkward. Like, because I would put on my brave face for him. Because I wanted to make sure that I was the strong one. And I would I mean; I wasn’t even dealing with my grief behind closed doors. But I didn’t dare grieve in front of him because I wanted to be the strong one. And he did the same thing. He didn’t dare grieve in front of me, because he wanted to be the strong one. And so we I know that he did, he did deal with it behind closed doors, because I remember one day like asking, do you even miss her? They didn’t even affect you. Do you even care that she died? And he’s he has never raised his voice. I mean, he got very stern and was like you don’t know how many times I’ve cried in the car by myself to the office or from the office? Because I miss her so much. much. And that’s when he told me, I don’t grieve in front of you because I want to be strong for you. And I was, I was like, Oh, okay. And then I read a book called, oh, man, something along the lines of like, couples communication after the loss of a child. I will have to you can put it in your like podcast notes, I’ll get the official name for that book. But I’m, I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s called. I read that book, because I felt like he wasn’t grieving the way I would expect him to like moping around crying all the time. So that’s where that idea came from, oh, he doesn’t care. He didn’t miss her. Anyway, that book saved our relationship. It not only taught me that it that people grieve differently. It also taught me to ask him questions about that, which is where those questions came from? Because I was concerned, like, do you even do you even miss her? And so it really, and we still, to this day, we still do this? Like I will. And well, let me not get ahead of myself. But to this day, we still do that. I will still sometimes ask him. Hey, do you miss her? Yes, I miss her every day, you know? Or if I feel like like when her Angel bursary just passed in May, I asked him how he was that a hey, check in with me. How are you feeling? How are you doing? What do you need? What can I give you? And he’s very, he’s very honest, and he’ll reciprocate those words. How are you feeling? What do you need? How can I support you? And I’m very honest, with my answers, him and I both remember her differently, I find so much comfort going to the cemetery. He does not. And I have learned that is okay, he doesn’t feel connected to her there. As I do. Instead, he he’s just the cutest he takes our breath. He’s an avid soccer fan, and an avid Seattle Sounders fan. So anytime they play, he wrapped a Seattle Sounders scarf around Breck and him and Breck stay on the couch and watch the game together. And that is how he feels connected to her. Whereas me like, I mean, I kind of laugh about it, because I’m like, that’s like, the silliest thing. But for him, that’s where he feels connected. And, and it’s okay, that he remembers her that way. And I remember her a different way, I’m very involved in the nonprofit, it helps me feel connected to her. It kind of stings a little bit for him. And so he, he’s involved, but he’s not as involved as I think a lot of people would expect him to be. Because he’s communicated to me, it’s kind of a little hard, kind of triggers me a little bit, and I respect that. Okay. I, you know, I don’t want to trigger you. And so I really, essentially run it by myself. And then he helps, where needed. And he helps a ton as far as like financial contribution, and a lot of our money goes, goes into it. And so he works hard to make sure that not only can our household and our, and, you know, whatever we like to do traveling or Season Passes elsewhere, not only can he support us in that way, but he can also keep that foundation running, if a grant doesn’t come through, or if a donation doesn’t come through, we can still keep our bears, we can still keep giving our bears and so that’s that’s kind of his, his thing. And we each have our different, our different things.
Victoria Volk 1:09:17
It’s beautiful. And that says a lot about how far probably your relationship has grown and evolved. And I just think it really is about giving permission. Right to is. Yeah, thank you for sharing that resource. So, I will put that in the show notes once you have the link and everything.
Corchele Smith 1:09:36
Yeah, I will. I will find it. I know exactly where it’s at. So, I will find it for you.
Victoria Volk 1:09:41
So, what would you say that your grief has taught you?
Corchele Smith 1:09:48
Oh, wow. I don’t think I’ve ever reflected on that. I think it’s taught me really just how short life is how much We take life for granted. It’s, it’s taught me how to be a better person, and how to be more compassionate, and kind, it’s taught me that you have no idea what the person next to what your neighbor is going through what the person in the checkout line is going through, and just to be kind to just to all human beings, because you have no idea what they’re going through. Grief has also taught me how to be present. In the moment, I think that’s the biggest thing that it has taught me how to just be present in everything that I do.
Victoria Volk 1:11:00
One thing that came to my mind is, through your story is even after even only living for 10 hours, the impact her life has had. Right? It’s, so we have this one life we are given. And even if you think you’re in your, let’s say, you’re in your 20s, or 40s, or you’re 14, or 84, I don’t care what it is, your life has meaning in it has an impact on people, you are impacting people, whether you know it or not. If a baby, a little baby can touch so many people, your life, your husband, you know, your fiance, your siblings, like the grandparents, like 10 hours, and the ripples of her life with the foundation, you know, the nonprofit.
Corchele Smith 1:12:05
I mean, and not only that, but she has impacted the way hospitals do intake now. Because we told them, they knew that they messed up. And so they said no more. With this test, we’re going to more expensive tests, because we can’t have that happen again, that was their fault. That was the hospital’s fault that that happened. It’s their fault that she’s not here. I mean, it’s nobody’s fault. But you know what I mean? And so they’ve changed that. And I can’t tell you, I’m still so close to all the nurses that were there when when Brooklyn was born. And I can’t tell you how many times a nurse has been like Breckland saved another baby today. The test came back, a test comes back negative, they do the other tests just to make sure. And some of those tests have come back positive. And so they the whole intake process here in Utah has changed because of her death. And so yeah, look at look at that impact that she’s had look, all the lives that she has saved so many parents who don’t have to go through this pain because of her. I, I mean, she’s just impacted. Everybody who knows her is impacted has been impacted.
Victoria Volk 1:13:30
That’s like, why isn’t that just a rule across the country?
Corchele Smith 1:13:38
While we’re while I’m hoping that one day it will be?
Victoria Volk 1:13:43
Yeah. Wow. Is that okay, can I ask? I’m gonna like really change gears, but I’m just curious because I was Group B strep, positive. Is that the same thing? Or is that different?
Corchele Smith 1:13:53
Okay. No, because I was negative.
Victoria Volk 1:13:58
Okay, cuz for anyone who doesn’t know maybe if a man you know, I don’t know, women went away there. But groupie struck, you know, when you get pregnant and they test you for group you strap and if you’re positive and you go into, once you’re once you go into labor, they give you antibiotics, if it’s been so many hours or whatever. And with my first child, I was actually it was he was born 12 hours after my water broke. Oh, so any like, almost to the minute so and on May 24.
Corchele Smith 1:14:29
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:14:33
If you would have bent just a little bit later I would have had it probably would have had us a Syrian but but yeah, so I was just curious because they give antibiotics for that.
Corchele Smith 1:14:43
They’re different.
Victoria Volk 1:14:46
Well, and what an incredible ripple creator she has too.
Corchele Smith 1:14:52
I know. I love it. I am very, very proud to be her mother.
Victoria Volk 1:14:56
It’s amazing. What gives you the most joy now and hope for the future.
Corchele Smith 1:15:02
My family brings me the most joy, like my my kids bring me so much joy. And just knowing I just have there’s not one specific thing that brings hope for the future. I just, I just feel it in my, in my soul in my Sacral Chakra I just feel just hope. And as long as I feel good sense I you know, I know about the chakras and stuff if my heart and or I’m not my sacral, my solar plexus as long as my solar plexus and my heart. Both feel good. I know I’m on the right path. And that is what gives me hope. As long as those two are just aligned so well and open and communicating well. I know I’m on the right path. Once one shifts or changes, I know something needs to shift or change in my life.
Victoria Volk 1:16:16
Amazing. And if you want to learn about Reiki a little bit more, do you..
Corchele Smith 1:16:22
Contact Victoria! you do it too?
Victoria Volk 1:16:26
I do. But well, because you don’t do distance sessions. Is that correct?
Corchele Smith 1:16:30
Yeah, correct. I only do in-person sessions.
Victoria Volk 1:16:36
Well, I will put a link to your website.
Corchele Smith 1:16:40
Only for because of Breklyn , all of my services and stuff you can just find on Instagram, I’ll give you all of that information. So, you would just message me for I mean, whatever you need, I do do trauma work and inner child healing and Shadow Work through zoom. And so I’ll outdistance those. So, if any of your listeners need some inner child healing or shadow work done, I can I can do that.
Victoria Volk 1:17:19
Okay, and we’ll put all of her contact information in the show notes. Yeah. And is there anything else? You would well share your handle for anyone listening? You’re on Instagram? Where can they find you?
Corchele Smith 1:17:32
Oh, I’m on Instagram at me personally, I’m on Instagram @corchelesmith. And then because of Brooklyn is on Instagram @becauseof Breklyn. And you can find my website and also the link to my nonprofit on Instagram. It’s LinkedIn like my personal profile as well. And then because of Brooklyn, www.becauseofbreklyn .org is our website.
Victoria Volk 1:18:10
Do you have any events or anything that you have coming down the pike about for the foundation?
Corchele Smith 1:18:17
We do not have any events currently right now we just closed like our huge event that we do yearly. And so right now, we are donating bears to hospitals. However, if any of your listeners work at a hospital or need a bear or want bears brought into the hospital, or whatever it is contact me because there are a ton of, I know that there are a ton of hospitals that we’re not in and we ship them all over. All over. We can ship them. So, if you need a bear, contact us if you’ve you know if you’ve had a loss of any kind of Nina bear. And then also, if you want your local hospital to have bears just shoot us a message and let us know. But yeah, and we’ll post all of our events on our on our webpage but for right now it’s it’s donation. Period. Summers, we usually is when we usually will donate everything and we like to take family family trips. So when we, for example, we were just in Vegas, because we service the hospitals in Nevada. And so it makes a fun little trip we really like to meet like the hospitals that we’re going to but sometimes that’s not always possible and we have to ship them so yeah,
Victoria Volk 1:19:48
Maybe, just maybe I will get you to North Dakota.
Corchele Smith 1:19:51
Maybe you are the person to suggest that in like two weeks like North Dakota But Dakotas. Yeah, they’re like, the Dakotas. And I’m like, I mean, I’ve thought about every state, but I don’t really know. I don’t really have any hookups there.
Victoria Volk 1:20:13
I’ll see what I can do.
Corchele Smith 1:20:15
Just shoot me a message and the hospitals close to you, and we’ll get in there and come out.
Victoria Volk 1:20:21
Yeah, I do. I do have a contact at one. Yeah, I yep, I do.
Corchele Smith 1:20:26
Great. That sounds like a plan. Look at the universe is working already.
Victoria Volk 1:20:31
Yes. Anything else you would like to share?
Corchele Smith 1:20:34
No, I’ve, I feel like I have said a lot. Thank you for allowing me to use my voice and share her story and having me on here.
Victoria Volk 1:20:46
Thank you. I feel it’s the ripples, the ripples. And so, thank you for sharing your story. And for being my guest. Yeah, thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Death/Dying, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Widowhood |
Arielle Arbushites | Widowed By Suicide at 29 & 3x Not a Mother
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Arielle wasn’t a newcomer to grief and loss by the time her husband decided to take his own life when she was only 29.
She shares the highs, lows, and fears of navigating all of the unknowns and changes that came with losing her beloved, Rick. She wondered if she would ever love again, and because she and Rick couldn’t have children together, she then had to face the possibility that she would never become a mother. Would she meet someone who would want to have children? Would she meet someone while she’s still young enough to begin the chapter of parenthood? So many unknowns and the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations.
Spoiler alert! Arielle does eventually remarry but wedded bliss doesn’t last long. After three miscarriages, she and her new love wondered if their mutual dreams and desires to be parents would ever come true.
Every miscarriage was different, and she shares exactly how different they were in this episode and how she found her way to wellness. She also shares the one thing that helped her soothe her own soul, not to mention how she found her own way to share with others how she was feeling without the pressure of needing to have what are often uncomfortable conversations.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH ARIELLE:
Victoria Volk 00:01
Thank you for tuning in to today’s episode of grieving voices. Today my lovely guest is Arielle Arbrushites, and she is a licensed master social worker specializing in the field of grief and loss. She’s also experienced her own grief and loss. And we will dig into all of that. Thank you for being here.
Arielle Arbrushites 00:25
Thanks for having me.
Victoria Volk 00:27
So, let’s start with how we connected and and the losses that bring you to the podcast.
Arielle Arbrushites 00:35
Sure, sure. Well, we connected on on Instagram, I was checking out your account and I, I believe you are checking out mine and I have started, I guess running with more circles of the grief and loss crowd on Instagram in the last couple of months. Um, I am a widow. And I’ve been widowed for almost seven years, it’ll be seven years this coming May. And I, I’m widowed because of suicide, my husband took his own life. And in addition to that, I’ve also experienced three miscarriages. And then I had that lovely diagnosis of recurrent pregnancy loss or multiple miscarriages, and you know, very grateful to have a baby son now, but it took quite some time for me to have a living child. So, between those two things, I sort of joke around that I’m a good poster child for disenfranchised grief because suicide loss and miscarriage are just types of losses that people don’t talk about, or at least they don’t talk about, in the same way as other losses are talked about. And I just feel as a social worker, that it’s very important to give voice to those losses because it normalizes it for people, it validates their grief and their feelings. And those things are very, very important to me. So, I’m a writer, I think first and foremost. And then second, I’m a social worker. And those two things, they just they melt together pretty well.
Victoria Volk 02:09
Yeah. And actually, I think I reached out to you. In fact, on Instagram, I think there was this immediate connection for both of us. And also, to like you work in the hospice arena.
Arielle Arbrushites 02:21
I do, I do. I started out as a hospice social worker, you know, as we say, in hospice in the field, meaning traveling from home to home, and taking care of hospice patients in their homes, whatever their home might be. So, whether it’s a house, an apartment, whether it’s a skilled nursing facility, and assisted living facility, whatever they would call their residents. I was doing that kind of work in hospice, and then just a little over two years ago, actually became a manager in hospice. So, my title now is manager of support services, which means I oversee all of the hospice, social workers in our hospice agency, all of the spiritual counselors, all of the bereavement counselors and the volunteer coordinator in that program. So that is really cool. And the way I explain it to people who aren’t familiar with Hospice is I’m basically in managing everything non nursing related. So, anything that’s that’s not nursing, it kind of falls under me, which is cool. And I don’t really like to consider myself a boss. I like the term leader a lot more. So, you know, in leadership, and in my job, we talk about that a lot. I really want to be a leader, not a boss, and I don’t micromanage, and I like to work with people not above them. And, you know, the the hierarchy is not important to me at all. And, of course, first and foremost by profession. I’m still a social worker, and I do still see patients in hospice. I just also happen to manage 25 people at the same time, so I don’t see as many patients as I used to.
Victoria Volk 03:49
So how did you get into this work? Was it those losses that you experience?
Arielle Arbrushites 03:55
It’s an interesting question, because I think people ask me that all the time. If they find out about the losses that I’ve had, and I actually my husband died before I was doing hospice work. However, I had interned for hospice, when I was getting my master’s in social work. One of my field placements was in hospice. And that’s how I knew that I was called to do that work, and I really wanted to my husband was still living at that point. And then, you know, of course, my husband dying by suicide, that has has nothing to do with hospice, you know, for the most part, but a loss is a loss and grief is grief and widowhood is widowhood. And, you know, what you experience in the aftermath, there’s so many similarities no matter what the loss or how someone died, so after my husband died, I worked at my previous job for about a year a little over a year before I made the jump, to go to hospice as a full time employee because I felt like in my first year of grief, it pretty probably wasn’t the smartest thing to do just for my own self care, I didn’t want to dive right into helping other people with death and dying and their grief and their losses when I really needed to take care of myself. But as more time went on, I thought, Okay, you know what, I’m still grieving, because I think you grieve forever. That’s, that’s, you know, my belief. I thought, well, I’m still grieving. But I know I really think that I’m healthy and well enough and healed enough that I could help other people. And I think my personal experience was really going to benefit what I could give to a job like that. So, I hopped back into hospice at that point. And I hadn’t had any miscarriages, I hadn’t had any baby losses. At that point, I wasn’t able to have children with my late husband. And that was always a personal struggle to where I really wanted to become a parent, but I couldn’t, and I couldn’t and years passed and I couldn’t and you know, all the trying anybody who’s been through this, you know, you know, you try and you try and years past, and it’s just it becomes so heavy. So then losing my husband, of course, was losing all that, too. So, if I really wanted to be a mom, now I have to find somebody who wants to also be a parent, and how am I ever going to find this perfect person, I have to start all over and you know, wasting more time. And that’s kind of the wheels in my head, were turning with that kind of a thing. But I am remarried, and I’ve been married for, it’ll be four years this summer. So about three and a half years right now that I’ve been married to my current husband, Jeff. And all of the losses that I’ve experienced with the babies were with him. So, we had a lot of struggles trying to become parents as well. And it was just loss after loss after loss with him. And those were really, really difficult in a completely different way. And as far as the hospice work, it was always really cool seems like the wrong word when I’m talking about loss like that. But it was always really cool to be working for a hospice agency, when I was going through those losses, because you can imagine, if you work in the field of death, and dying, and grief and loss, you’re going to be, I think, more compassionate to your colleagues that are going through something like that, even when it’s disenfranchised grief. And if I needed to, you know, obviously be off from work for a few days to recover, and, you know, go through a surgery and recover from that, I felt like everyone was very thoughtful and caring, and it was a really great place to be working when I had to go through something like that. And I know so many people don’t have that privilege. So that was always, you know, a blessing. I don’t think people were apt to talk about it with me so much, because it’s still like that hush hush kind of grief, even in the field of grief and loss, believe it or not, but I did feel a lot of compassion when I worked with with hospice during those time.
Victoria Volk 07:53
I can’t imagine the whispers it’s like, I heard she had a miscarriage. And you know, it’s like the people that feel so uncomfortable with what don’t know what to say, and don’t know how to behave around someone who has had a loss like that. And, you know, I just want for our listeners who may not be really as familiar with the term disenfranchised. It was actually coined by a professor in the 80s, when he had a student that talked about the death of her ex-husband, and how it wasn’t her loss wasn’t even really recognized. And even though they had been together for many, many years, and when in grief recovery, the label doesn’t help us. It doesn’t tell us how to move beyond loss. But I just wanted to explain the definition a little bit. So, when that happened with your first husband, what were some of the things that you experienced and went through in respect to feeling that it was disenfranchised? Like what can you elaborate more on that?
Arielle Arbrushites 09:01
Yeah, absolutely. And again, to your point, I guess I was lucky that I was actually truly married to him, so I was a recognized a widow by society versus if we had been in a partnership for a while or he was just my fiance, or you know, people just they like the society likes the labels, right? You know, it doesn’t help us grieve. But society recognizes that because this disenfranchised grief is grief that’s not recognized or acknowledged by society in the same way as other grief. So, um, you know, things that I experienced, by way of this disenfranchised grief terminology. I think, um, you know, my husband dying by suicide, it makes people uncomfortable, you know, and rightly so, because it is a trauma, you know, it was a traumatic experience for me, but, um, they, they rope you in to the story. So, the way I explain this is You know, people will say things like, you know, did you notice anything? Or what’s what’s the worst version of that question I always say is Didn’t you notice anything and, you know, like, that just kind of gets you. It kind of takes you into the story as though you were the bystander there. And you were you somehow have some responsibility to retell that story for people. People don’t tend to ask those questions when someone is dying of a medical event, a heart attack cancer, even, you know, if somebody is a soldier in the military, it we know, as society, it comes with that, you know, expectation that you might be on a dangerous assignment, you know, or war might be part of the equation, it doesn’t make the loss any easier for anyone who would lose a spouse or a person that way. And that’s not what I’m saying. It’s just that, you know, if you said, you know, my husband died in war, okay, you know, my husband died of cancer, or my husband had a heart attack, nobody asks you to that retail, how the heart attack went? Or what happened, or what was noticed, or what wasn’t noticed. And, you know, I think people sometimes they come from a place of like, morbid curiosity, where they actually want to know what happened with my husband. But for the most part, that’s not even why those questions are asked, people are just so caught up in that story that they pull the, you know, the breathed into it. And I think that was often really hard. And, you know, just the not talking about it, people will talk about folks who have had long battles with cancer, for example, and, you know, have have died in that way. Equally as awful, you know, there’s no hierarchy, again, with the grief, but people don’t necessarily want to talk about the fact that my husband took his own life and killed himself in our house. And I don’t necessarily always want to keep retelling that story over and over either, but it’s all very quiet, you know, not to mention his name, not to say, oh, you know, he was such a great person, or he was this or he was that or let me tell you a funny story. And, you know, that was that was kind of difficult too.
Victoria Volk 12:16
It’s a different honoring, in a way that the people who maybe not even you know, even if you don’t necessarily have a close relationship with someone, you can definitely find something that had some interaction, you can share something a memory, or an interaction or something with that person. But like you said, that’s a very good point you bring across is that maybe the griever just wants to hear something positive the impact that they had on you as a person while they were alive, right?
Arielle Arbrushites 12:50
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, I, I feel like when we’re talking about disenfranchised grief, I have to bring up the point that there are some people thankfully, nobody I was very close to, because I like to think I choose by my friends, well, but there are people out there who will say things, for example, like, Well, you know, he obviously went to hell, or, you know, God will never forgive him. It’s like, that’s that disenfranchised grief, right? Like, the way he quote unquote, chose to die was something that’s that some people will deem totally unacceptable. And then they’re not telling him that because he’s dead, they’re telling me, which then puts so much more sadness and heaviness and anger on me. And, you know, I think I think people who have lost anyone to suicide, it doesn’t matter if it was a spouse, you know, they probably have experienced some element of that.
Victoria Volk 13:46
That’s very isolating.
Arielle Arbrushites 13:48
Absolutely, and being a widow at 29, which is how old I was when it happened was isolating enough so to put that, on top of it was, was tough.
Victoria Volk 13:59
Which brings to mind things those unhelpful things that people can say, too, is like you’re only 29 there, you know, you have so much more opportunity to meet somebody. Did you hear things like that, too?
Arielle Arbrushites 14:11
Oh, my gosh, so my favorite story about this is I’m at Rick’s funeral I in the front of the funeral home, with the urn of ashes standing there and like the receiving line, you know, everyone comes through and gives you a hug or tells you, their story. And someone actually came up to me on the day of his funeral and said, you know, well, you’re still young, you’re cute, you’ll get married again, like he had been dead for three days. And I just thought that was absolutely horrific. Like the worst thing you could say as I’m standing there with tears streaming down my face grieving my husband, that someone could say that it seemed odd and I’ve always thought to myself, you know, even if people are thinking that and that makes them feel better, like she’ll be okay because you know, she’ll find someone again, if they need to think that there’s no need to say it out loud to me, especially that soon in the grieving process. So it makes me laugh. Now you can tell that I’m like chuckling over it. But you know, at the time, I was just kind of it, I was taken aback. And I, I didn’t really have a response that I can recall.
Victoria Volk 15:18
But all of these things that those comments like that they kind of stack up. And it’s like, and that’s why we isolate as Grievers because we’d rather just stay home then go out in public and hear these things, right?
Arielle Arbrushites 15:30
Absolutely, I couldn’t find really anybody at that point to understand exactly how I was feeling or close enough. I mean, I was 29, some of my friends were still, you know, planning their weddings and getting married. And I had had three weddings to go to my first year of widowhood, which was really, really hard as well. And, you know, no fault of anyone they were, they were celebrating a part of their life. And, you know, one, one part of my life had ended, but it was a, it was a very transitionary time. And it was, it was tough for me, because I felt like to find another 29-year-old widow, I would be hard pressed to find that person. And then even if I did to find someone who had been bereaved by suicide and had to grapple with the the trauma and the guilt, and the, you know, circumstances of that, that would be even more rare. And, you know, that was, that was really something.
Victoria Volk 16:24
So where did you find support?
Arielle Arbrushites 16:26
I think I found support, you know, through writing, because I’ve always turned to writing my entire life to help me process. And then my writing kind of became my outward grieving, it was like my morning. And what I did was I had a daily widow blog, where I would write every single night, and I would publish it every single night. And it really gained, you know, quite a readership. And so, this was back in 2014, I started the blog six days after Rick died, and I just one night decided, you know, I think I have something new to write about, and this will help me and if people read it, and it helps them really great, awesome, but it’s, I’m really gonna write it for me. And when I started out doing it, I was writing, not so much to help other people who had been bereaved, but to help everybody in my life and beyond know, what I might need at any given moment, or how to understand me, or how to see what I was going through. So, it was kind of my way of reaching out, like, you don’t even have to reach out to me, but if you read this blog nightly, you know, you’ll know where I’m at. Because I was all over the place for that whole first year plus, and I did write every single day, for over a year, Chronicle my whole grieving process in real time. And what ended up happening was my friends, my family, my acquaintances, my colleagues, everybody was reading this. And in turn, they knew how to support me, which was awesome, because I was asking for what I needed, or I was telling what I, what I needed. And it got bigger than that. And a lot of people that I didn’t even know were ended up reading it. And, you know, I think it’s still fairly widely read, because I do get messages from time to time, even though that blog has kind of stopped in time. And then I’ve started a new blog, where I’m not labeling myself as a widow so much anymore, but it’s, you know, it’s, it’s still there. And I think people find that they’re not as isolated because they have something to go to, and they see, okay, somebody went through something like this, and it’s there. And I know that I’m not I’m not crazy, I’m normal, because I can read these words. And, you know, that’s always been important to me,
Victoria Volk 18:38
You thought about turning that into a book?
Arielle Arbrushites 18:41
I have, I would really like to and it’s definitely, you know, the next thing on my list of things to publish it, um, it needs a little bit of editing because my, what I really dream of doing is kind of taking that blog, turning it into a book. But now you know, almost seven years later and later in retrospect, I can I have insight into all these little pieces and chapters that I can put in there now that wouldn’t have been there before. So I’d like to have you know, all the stuff from that first year, plus the me now giving her insights into things and I think that would be pretty cool. The good news is, you know, it’s basically all written, and it just needs to be tweaked and edited. So, it’s just a matter of getting it out there. But that’s, it’s actually one of my goals for 2021 to have it, have it be out there published.
Victoria Volk 19:36
I would love to support you in that I started my blog in 2014, my first blog to where I was blogging about personal development and growth spirituality when I felt like I was starting my personal growth journey, after loss and grief and all of that and ended up writing a book to self publishing it so I would love to see that come to fruition for you and went from We can definitely have side chats about that my future.
Arielle Arbrushites 20:03
It’s awesome. yeah, I mean, I applaud you for for your book as well. I mean, it’s just an awesome thing giving voice to this kind of grief, it’s so important, I can’t, I really can’t emphasize it enough. It’s not a self-serving thing. You know, and I’m sure you understand that too. You’re not you’re not publishing a book as this self-serving practice. And that’s not why I would choose to do either it’s just, you want to be a voice for these things.
Victoria Volk 20:26
Well, and it was very therapeutic. I mean, that was the one thing I didn’t expect from the experience was that it was very therapeutic.
Arielle Arbrushites 20:33
Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 20:34
So, I want to give you the opportunity, though, to share about Rick in a way that you maybe didn’t get the opportunity to to others during that time, and maybe in your blog, I’m sure you expressed it through your blog, but tell us about Rick.
Arielle Arbrushites 20:49
Rick was a complicated individual, for sure. As you can imagine, for somebody who did take his own life, but he loved the beach he loved to he he loved to look up at the sun and you know, you could find him on a 55 degree day laying out on a towel in the backyard just to catch the rays of the sun even though it would seem to me too cold to be laying in the sun. It was something that he would do and you know that I think about him the most when I see the ocean or the sea and the sun shining on it because I think that’s where he felt most at peace when he was so conflicted and you know, in emotional pain, I guess I would is how I would say it and you know, I really I believe in being real about people you know, so there are a lot of things that I can say that are really wonderful about him and that would be perfectly truthful but you know, I don’t want to talk him up either because you know, he obviously did have some struggles. And you know, I think it’s important for people to know you know, we can still grieve someone who was complicated and complicated grief is the thing to write so, um, you know, but but Rick was very thoughtful, he was a very thoughtful person, he would write me notes all the time I have stacks piles of handwritten notes from him still, it was a kind of a regular thing where I would come home from when I was I was married when I was in grad school, I’m getting my master’s in social work and I was working full time so I would go to school at night from like 630 to 930 I’d be getting home around 10pm and oftentimes he would be asleep already and he would leave me a note on the kitchen table or note on the counter and you know, that was kind of a regular thing and they were very sweet and sometimes they’re very funny. And most of the time he was funny without meaning to be funny. So um, that was very cute. I know that in his mind, he felt like he was doing me a favor by committing suicide because he wanted me to have a better life than what he thought that he could give me and he felt like he was giving me a gift which is just to me so sad and I know this because of a suicide note that he left for me not because I’m you know, creating some kind of story around it but based on what he wrote to me I know that that’s how he felt and I find that very heavy and sad but he also was thanking me in the note so I always like to think that you know, maybe the last emotions he was feeling before he died were of gratitude instead of despair and that’s kind of the story I tell myself so that it doesn’t become too traumatic and too heavy.
Victoria Volk 23:50
for a lot of conflicting feelings in that yeah, here that’s a lot of grief that’s what grief is it’s conflicting feelings.
Arielle Arbrushites 23:58
Yeah.
Victoria Volk 23:59
Thank you for sharing.
Arielle Arbrushites 24:00
Sure.
Victoria Volk 24:01
Moving on to losses you’ve experienced well, and you fall in love again.
Arielle Arbrushites 24:08
I did you did. I was not ready people always say How did you feel that you were finally ready? I was not ready. I did not say let’s go out and date again. No, Jeff just happened as most things in life do just like everything else that’s ever happened to me. He just happened and we became friends and then we became more than friends and now we are married, and you know, we have a beautiful family together. But um, it takes the right person to I think marry someone who has been widowed, especially someone who’s been widowed by suicide. And he happened to be that person and I am so so lucky to have found him early enough in life that I get to have a lot of years with him hopefully.
Victoria Volk 24:49
Beautiful. So, what is one thing that you would share with others who may have experienced a similar loss as you are maybe not either with Rick or the miscarriages?
Arielle Arbrushites 25:02
I think you know it’s important to find your army of support and you know I have to say that as a social worker and especially in the profession I mean you know, support is huge support doesn’t have to look like you know 400 people reading a blog every night it can be just your best friend just your mom or your dad you know, it could be your neighbor that you have a cup of tea with you know it, it can really be anybody that makes you feel a little bit lighter, a little bit less alone and you know, By the same token even though grief can feel so isolating and sometimes be so isolating you’re not alone. I felt alone so much of the time but but really I wasn’t you know, there’s so many other people that sadly have experienced a loss like mine and I feel that way especially when we talk about like the multiple miscarriages you know, it’s it’s not talked about it’s it’s we’re getting better at that I think but it’s not talked about to the level it should be in could be but it’s it’s so prevalent and nobody says anything and if you’re feeling some kind of way, somebody else out there hundreds of other somebodies 1000s of other somebodies are feeling that exact same way so it’s either just a matter of knowing that to make yourself feel supported or finding those people to make yourself feel supported and you know, thankfully we live in the age of technology where you can google things and you can find Facebook groups and Instagram groups and blogs and there’s just so many ways to do things virtually if you are isolated physically that you’re not able to go find things and of course you know we’re in a pandemic so we’re not doing these large group gatherings and clubs and things anyway but there’s so much out there there’s there’s tons of things out there.
Victoria Volk 26:57
Like this podcast.
Arielle Arbrushites 26:58
Exactly like this podcast perfect example.
Victoria Volk 27:03
Would you like to share about the losses of those babies?
Arielle Arbrushites 27:09
I’m sure sure. Um, I I felt a strong connection with all of them. And I think it was shocking to me how little support was given to me by the health system every time I had a loss and you know, that’s one of the things that professionally I’m trying to work on quite a bit in the field of grief and loss and I had some perinatal death and grief training recently so that I can try to help folks in the situation that I was in no matter what gestation and you know, there’s really again there’s no hierarchy with this grief but it was just so hard for people to know what to say or do in the health system in my own life. And you know, my husband Jeff was very very supportive and I used to write little notes to myself because I always go to writing and I used to write little notes to myself during those different losses just saying you know, whenever Jeff is annoying or you’re frustrated with him just remember this moment and how amazing he has been today doing this and this and this and this and I would lift every way that he was able to support me through those because especially when we got to the you know, the third miscarriage um, I was a mess. I mean, it was just so so traumatic. And it was just this roller coaster of happiness and devastation over and over again because unfortunately for us with the last two losses, you know, we had gone in and we had ultrasounds, everything was fine and perfect and healthy. We saw the heartbeat we started the baby moving. And, you know, so you kind of you breathe a sigh of relief, thinking Everything is fine, and then for weeks to pass and then to go in and for them to say that the baby had died, you know, shocking, awful. And then the third time around, you know, you think okay, well it’s, it’s finally it’s finally my tie, like it’s really going to happen this time. You know, this could not possibly happen again, and you hold your breath and you’re just so traumatized and you go in and you go to ultrasound after ultrasound, and they’re all fine, everything’s great, everybody gives you the thumbs up and you just keep breathing a little bit more a little bit more and then to go back and have them tell you you know, the heartbeat slowing down and we think the baby is going to die for the for the the last baby loss that I had. I actually left the doctor’s office knowing that the baby was still alive but going to die and I had to go home and essentially wait for the baby to die which it was totally different from my first miscarriage. Was miscarrying at home very painfully, and very different from my second miscarriage, which was finding out that the heartbeat had stopped, and the baby had already died, and then getting a DNC surgery to remove the baby that had died. So, this third time, it was like, Okay, well, it’s going to die. But we can’t do a surgery yet because it’s still alive. And there’s really nothing we can do. So go home and wait for it to die. So that was gut wrenching. And I think Jeff, and I just didn’t really know what to do or how to react and like, you know, what do you do? Do you go to work and just, like, know that the baby’s in there dying, and you can’t do anything as its mother. And it was, so all my losses were so incredibly different to, which is why I feel like, I can relate to different miscarriage stories, because, you know, they weren’t all the same. So, somebody had the first kind of loss that I had, I get that they had the second kind of loss, I get that the third kind, I get that, um, you know, did they all make me stronger, probably more resilient. Absolutely. But it was a really, really hard time for me and for us, and I really began to think that I was just not going to be a parent. Um, and I, I pretty much did not want to try to become a parent anymore, because the thought of having a fourth loss was almost worse than anything. Um, but like I said, at the beginning of this, you know, I do have a son, he’s 16 months old, and he is amazing. Um, but I was terrified for my entire pregnancy, that something was going to go horribly wrong, as you can understand, and I know, many moms have been in that in that place, too. So, you know, there. There, there is a story unfolding. And you know, we always only see the moment that we’re in, like the page that we’re on, and I was really stuck there on those particular pages of grief for a long time, not really understanding that, you know, the pages would continue to flip. And at some point, I’d be feeling differently, even if it meant that I didn’t have a beautiful son out of it. Because you know, what, let’s face it, you know, that won’t happen for everybody. And that’s really, really tough, too.
Victoria Volk 32:15
If I could hug you. I would give you a hug right now, I just got teary eyed because I can’t imagine what that felt like for you just can’t. So, my mom, my heart goes out to you. I had a conversation too, with another griever about miscarriage early on in my podcast, and she was talking about, you know, you go into the doctor’s office and see all these women with the big bellies and, you know, join on their faces, and it’s like you’re in the same waiting room, and how tortures that must feel your heart and something needs to be done about that.
Arielle Arbrushites 32:55
Absolutely. Oh, that was a bit it was very difficult. I almost think though what was worse was leaving not once, but twice for two of my miscarriages, leaving that room where I had had an ultrasound knowing my baby was either dead or for the other time that you know, was going to die and you leave and they say like, okay, your copay will be $30, like, nobody’s been briefed to that I just had a horrible, devastating conversation, they are making me essentially pay for the bad news that I just received, like, there was just no sense of decorum. And that’s always been, you know, a sticking point, there’s somewhere in a folder in my home office where I have all these notes of what I would like to do to educate people in those professions just because I have this unique background of the grief and loss piece. And, and it’s just it’s not in fertility clinics, and it’s not in, you know, ob gyn offices, to the level that it should be. And I’m sure there are practices that are really building that and boosting that up and are really great at it. The ones that I was part of, we’re not really great at it. And I think it was just a deficit, you know, nobody meant any harm, you know, certainly, but they just hadn’t been ever given education or training or anything like that. And not once was I ever given even a flyer for a support group or anything, even loss after loss after loss. So, I still find that incredibly shocking. It’s incredibly sad. It really is. And I’ve often said to Jeff, that I am the kind of person especially because of my profession where I know how to find resources and I know how to get what I need, if someone’s not giving it to me, and I could do that and I could take it upon myself. But there are so many other women out there who are not able to do that who are not going to do that who are not going to know to do that. And what a disservice we’re doing to those people. So well.
Victoria Volk 35:02
and because grief is cumulative, and as cumulatively negative, it’s very likely, highly likely that someone coming into that situation and having to leave knowing that their baby will die or has already passed. They’ve had grief before that. And so, it’s just more grief on to their lives. And it’s almost like, what can’t they just, like, create this separate unit of the facility that’s specially for holding the hearts of people, mothers, you know, like the families because it’s your husband to like, he, like how did he navigate that, too.
Arielle Arbrushites 35:52
We just we navigated it together as a team for each other, because you didn’t have anybody, you know, to talk to to support him, you know, they don’t support the dads, it just it’s not a thing. And, you know, to your point about, you know, can’t we have a separate unit or waiting room or area or something, you know, I work in healthcare, if that’s not possible, because I know, that’s not always possible. That’s a beautiful dream. And it involves, you know, money and space and all sorts of things. If that’s not possible, at least you let the people who’ve just received bad news said, sit in that room, as long as they need take the time that you need, I’m here for you when you’re ready to go. And then you assign someone to walk them out, you know, whether it’s an arm around them, or you walk them down a different hallway, so they can leave outside of a different door, you don’t have them just check out like everybody else, where everybody’s waiting with their big belly and they get charged a copay by a chipper, cheerful person, and they’re out in the elevator before they know it with no support, you know, there, there are ways to do it, I think, you know, there’s an ideal way, like what you were saying that would be the ideal, but they’re all there’s always ways to think outside of the box. And I think people are either just unwilling to go there, or they have not experienced a loss like that. So they don’t even know that that would feel good or different, or would be important. And I think that’s just where the education and training comes in.
Victoria Volk 37:15
I also seem to believe this is my own belief is that because it’s so common, like miscarriages become so common. That it’s just like, we’ve become desensitized to it. And, you know, when you work in that environment, I imagine, you’re like, probably number 13 that came in that day. And I’m wondering, too, like, who’s supporting the health care workers who are in those positions? And it’s like, almost like, are they just separating themselves? Are they disassociating from the situation? Because if they didn’t, to bring that home with them, and it kind of speaks to the work that you do in hospice, like, how do you separate yourself from that, so you don’t bring it home with you. So, I think, along with education, it’s also to recognizing that there is a problem. But then when you recognize there’s a problem, you have to do something about it.
Arielle Arbrushites 38:19
You’re so right, you’re so right, um, you know, who is supporting those health care workers? And how desensitized are they? And, you know, what do they know and not know about what that feels like? Or, you know, perhaps they’ve experienced their own losses, and then you’re faced with that every day. So they have to compartmentalize they can’t even go there, you know, and, you know, we can assume and, you know, we’ll never completely know everybody’s individual stories, but yeah, I mean, absolutely, there has to be a way to support the people in those professions and positions and your your right to I we tried to do that in, in hospice, because, you know, I have, I’ve sat with many people who have died, I’ve watched people die many, many, many times, there have been weeks where I’ve had multiple patients die. And, you know, it’s, it’s to be expected because I work in hospice and, you know, that’s, we know that’s what’s going to happen. And oftentimes, it’s really very beautiful and positive and as an experience, you know, much like birth it there, there can be a celebration for death, you know, it’s not always that way. But, you know, I really like to de stigmatize the death and dying stuff to because it’s not always this this awful, terrible experience, but um, it can be really heavy, it can be really tough. And certainly, you know, I come home and I think about patients that I’ve had, who have died, you know, and I still do you know, if I have had patients that have died five years ago, I still think about them from time to time and, you know, that’s part of the work to it, it touches you It teaches you things and I’ve learned so much from the people that I’ve met and from their family members. I think you know, it’s gonna sound kind of trite. But self care is really important. And I don’t mean like, you know, so you go home and you take a hot bath and you light the candles, you know, that’s not exactly what I mean. But you kind of have to know when you’re you like reached your, your point of being a little bit too filled with grief to know, okay, maybe I need a day off today. Or maybe I just need to take a weekend to go for a hike to clear my mind or, you know, whatever it is that would really speak to you and be helpful to you, I think we have to be good about tuning into that. And healthcare is the kind of profession where we tend to just go go go, and it’s about the patient and not about us. And it’s about the people that we’re serving and not about us. Because you know, that’s why we are called to those professions, but you’re not any good to anybody else. If you’re not taking care of yourself first, it’s like the whole oxygen mask analogy, you know, you got to put it on yourself, and then you take care of everybody else that you’re supposed to take care of, it’s a lot like being a parent, you know, got to take care of yourself first, to be a good parent, to your child or your children. I feel that way about my patients to feel that way about my team of employees. And, you know, we, we try to encourage things that will fill our cup, so that we have things to give to other people. And whether that’s resilience training, or retreats from time to time, or just, we do like a morning inspiration on our morning conference call every morning in hospice. And sometimes it’s a joke, and it’s funny, and sometimes it’s more inspiring, and reflective. And we try to do things here and there. It’s hard because, you know, again, we’re in a pandemic, and healthcare. very tricky right now and even heavier than usual, especially especially at hospice. But we try and I think the effort speaks volumes to people see that you’re trying to care for them and make sure that they have what they need. So, I think that’s important, too, that the effort.
Victoria Volk 42:02
wonderful points, I mean, this this podcast episode very much be for healthcare community, too.
Arielle Arbrushites 42:08
I’m very worried you have to tell me like, Okay, you’ve, you’ve said enough?
Victoria Volk 42:12
Oh, no, it’s all good. It’s all good. So, what has your grief taught you?
Arielle Arbrushites 42:17
So much, um, I, it’s really been a journey to learn myself, if I’m being honest, um, you know, I will never be the same. Because of Rick dying, I will also never be the same because of all the miscarriages that I’ve had. But they’ve shaped me, and they’ve molded me in ways that are allowing me to be the best version of myself, and I think, offer bits and pieces of that better self to others. And you know, I’m still a work in progress, you know, I would hope that I’m not the best that I can ever be. I want to keep improving until the day that I die. But I’ve just learned so much about myself as a person and what I really need and what I really want and about fear. When I lost Rick, I was very, very afraid. I was afraid of so many things, what life would hold I was afraid of the unknown. I was afraid of moving, I was afraid of staying, I was afraid of not finding somebody again. You know, as afraid of people not understanding I was afraid of financial burden. I mean, I could write you a list of 150 things. And I was afraid of so many other things that had nothing to do with the loss of Rick. But I think it made me so much braver because I thought, well, if the worst thing that could ever happen to me has happened to me, nothing could possibly be as bad as that day. So just live every day. Like it’s the best day that you’re going to have and do whatever it is you want to do. And you know, tell that person exactly what you want to say don’t keep it inside and you know, share this moment with this person because you’re you have that fleeting thought Don’t let it be just a passing thought go ahead and do it and kind of like actions speak louder than words. So, I just started doing all the things that scared me. And that was a very eye-opening experience. And I think it was very positive and it kind of added to my resiliency and I don’t know, you’re probably familiar with like the post traumatic growth. So, I feel like you know, I, I could be a poster child for that too. You have so many bad things happen to you, but I have a really a very happy person. And I think that that makes that weirds people out sometimes but um, it’s because I have learned so much about myself and I’ve tapped into so much resilience over the course of time that it has just served me so well in so many beautiful ways that can’t possibly be ignored. So, it’s really less of like a happy, cheerful, Sunny overly positive personality and more of like, I’ve learned from this, and now I can use it. And it’s made life so much better. And kind of like the, I guess it’s a famous quote, like, you know, shared joy is double joy and shared sorrow is half sorrow. So, you know, that’s, that’s kind of how I think of things, you know, that’s why I write so that I could double the joy and I can have the sorrow too.
Victoria Volk 45:30
I love that. So, I can relate to the post traumatic growth. And I can also relate to, well, let me get your take on this. Because when you’ve experience when you feel like you’ve lived three lifetimes, and you look back on your life, and you’ve recognized where, where you’ve grown, and how far you’ve come and things like that, I have found it really challenging to look at others and see them suffer. And knowing that they don’t have to, like, there, there is more to life than what you’re feeling right now in this moment. But it’s such a challenge for people to get out of that headspace. And, you know, we have to be in it for a time, it’s whatever time that is. But do you agree or disagree? Or what are what is your thoughts on this? Maybe like this idea of, in addicted to the suffering itself?
Arielle Arbrushites 46:35
you’re talking about other people, not you and I right? When you say that, right?
Victoria Volk 46:39
Right, because, you know, like, when you when you’ve come so far, it’s like you, you just want to pull everybody with you, you know, it’s like, Just come with me, just let’s come, you know, not so bad over it’s this, this is amazing over here. And yeah, it doesn’t feel good in the process. But no one ever said I had a post the other day. Healing feels amazing said no one ever. You know, the process sucks, it does. But it’s like getting on the other side of that.
Arielle Arbrushites 47:15
You have to feel everything to feel the good and the joy. And I think that is very hard for some people harder than for you and me. And, you know, we have most likely either been given the tools by others, or we have built and created our own tools and kind of adapted, whether it’s because of privilege, or whether it’s because, you know, we’ve had experiences earlier in life than some other people and that has taught us how to build resilience and, you know, use history as a as an educator. You know, not everybody is as lucky as we are where they feel that they have those tools and that strength and those experiences to build from. So that’s why my thinking is, you know, for you and for me, we have a greater responsibility then to do things like this podcast and be that voice so that we can share the narrative. And we can give guidance, really, I mean, I think really, that’s what this is, it’s your giving voice, but you’re also guiding other people, it can be different, it doesn’t have to be the way it is right now. And like I said earlier, I think we grieve forever, but our grief changes, you know, it morphs, and it changes, and you don’t get over grief, it will always be part of you. But certainly, you can heal and you know, certainly you can be joyful again. And everything can exist in the same space. So, you can feel pain, but you can also feel joy. It’s not one or the other. It isn’t black and white. And that’s something that I talk to people about all the time because there’s so much all or nothing black and white thinking out there. Just because it’s like in our culture, that’s just the way people are taught and they just they grow to believe it’s like well if I feel sad, then I’m just gonna feel sad Well, you can feel sad and you should feel sad because things sad things have happened to you and you have every right to feel sad, but you can also feel joy at the same time. And you know, you can feel other things to anger and comfort and contentment and worry and confusion, you know that everything can all exist in the same space, and we learn to navigate it. So, you know, those are my thoughts. We, you know, you and me we have we have a greater responsibility because we have learned things and we have found things that that work and help. And that’s why we’re doing what we do. That’s why you do what you do. And that’s why I do what I do. And it takes all kinds of people to make this beautiful world work. There are many jobs I would never want to do. Just like people would never want to do my job and they tell me all the time. But there are lots of things they do that I wouldn’t want to do either and that’s why it takes All kinds of people to make the world work, which is great.
Victoria Volk 50:03
Yes. 100% I agree. I just had a post come to me yesterday Actually, I haven’t written about this yet. But someone had reached out to me and asked me to questions along these lines. And, you know, like, someone doesn’t identify themselves as a griever. But I can see that it’s grief and notes past relationship that they haven’t, they’re not recognizing, like, I’m over that, like, I dealt with that. I don’t need to dig that up, right. And my, what came to my mind was that, if you can talk about it today, like you and I, like you talked about your experience, and you’re not laying on the floor, a pile of mess, right. And I can talk about my experiences, and I’m not on the floor, like a pile of mess, that’s when you know, you’ve done a lot of work when you can talk about it. Hear Your experience, when you can help others through story. And, and not like a ruminating in the story. But in a this is what helped me this is what’s possible. I don’t know about you, but for me, I found my potential when I shed all of that when I shed all the stories when I shed the anger when I shed all the resentment, the grief that had kept weighing on me the grief has not gone away I still grieve my father certain relationships that change because of that experience and the trauma that happened to me after those things still happen and that doesn’t change that experience but I can talk about it and it not take me back to that little girl that is scared and fearful and you know all those emotions that you talked about.
Arielle Arbrushites 51:52
You’re absolutely right and you know for we can also be those people that are okay now and thriving and and share that with others, but also say, no, we were on the floor a pile of mess, at one point, and now we’re not and you know, that’s possible for other people too, because we can be we can keep it real. We used to be a mess. And now we’re okay.
Victoria Volk 52:14
Oh, I was a train wreck. I was a train wreck. Yeah. And you know, I could laugh about it. My life was a mess. I was, you know, used alcohol and got myself in some really scary situations.
Arielle Arbrushites 52:29
And look at you now.
Victoria Volk 52:31
Greed was the root of it. And that’s where people don’t connect the dots of what is happening in their lives, these repetitive behaviors, these things that we’re seeking to feel better, don’t connect it to the grief in their lives. And I want to ask you something, because I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that that loss of Rick wasn’t your first grieving experience?
Arielle Arbrushites 52:55
No, it was not my first grieving experience. No, I lost my great aunt when I was a teenager. And she was much closer than a grandmother to me. She was my best friend, truly. We used to sleep over together, and she was very, very special to me. So, when I was 16, she died. I experienced that loss. And I had experienced the loss of both of my grandfather’s two. So, in I would say early adulthood, my very early 20s. So, I am lucky to have a 92 year old grandmother and an 85 year old grandmother still living but I had lost both of my grandfather’s as well. So, it was not my first rodeo with grief. But it was a very different grief and a very traumatic grief when when Rick died.
Victoria Volk 53:41
And that’s why I say grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative it stacks up, right? Yeah. Well, you kind of talked about ways that others supported you and how writing kind of became your way to express what you needed and how you want it to be supported. What would you suggest to people who aren’t writers? Need? Yeah, what? Oh, my God, I need to, like spit it out Victoria. So writing was a huge outlet for you and expressing on what you needed and how you needed to be supported. And it was for me too, but I don’t know if anybody read it, but I wasn’t very good about vocalizing either. And so I journaled I internalized a lot which was not healthy. It was good for me, but it wasn’t a healthy way to approach I was an isolated grater I that’s I mean I was in a pit me of an isolated graver I don’t need your help. I can do this, you know, because, and here’s the thing, it kind of ties back to when you said resiliency. You know, when you lose a parent, as a child, you don’t choose resiliency, you have to get resilient. So, I hate when people say that children are resilient and bounce back, eat that. Don’t say that people. Please don’t say that. If a child If you recognize a child as resilient, it’s not because they chose to even have a choice. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. What would you suggest to someone who isn’t a writer to how to communicate what they need and how to be supported?
Arielle Arbrushites 55:16
Maybe the easiest thing to do would be to take the pressure off and not think about grief and think about how to explain their huge grief to someone because that is you know, that’s a tall order trying to put that into words for yourself, let alone to other people to tell them what you need. Instead, I would encourage someone to think about what brings them comfort, you know, is it a special warm coffee drink? Is it watching funny movies with a person that you really care about and can laugh with because you feel safe with them? And you know, is it going for a walk in nature whatever the case might be, you know, but think about the things that will really make you feel comfort like is there a special comfort food like do you just love when you feel like crap you want to eat you know homemade macaroni and cheese you know, whatever it is for these these folks? Think about those things take the grief out of it just like what would make you feel better be really literal and then tell those people that that would be something that would be awesome like you know, could you make that mac and cheese that I love so much that we had last year at this picnic and like ask them for that? Or say you know I I’m feeling kind of low today I really want to watch friends on a marathon of friends you know Do you want to come over and hang out with me for a little while now it puts it on them to ask rather than someone offering it to them but you know to answer your questions that’s what I would suggest because that’s not really making them talk about the grief Enos it’s just you know, having them tap into like what do I need what’s going to make me feel better like it won’t cancel my grief out but it’s going to make me feel loved and warm and comforted and some people can give it to themselves like you know, I tend to do that and especially like in the pandemic you know, we’re very handicapped with what we can do but you know, I’ll think about you know, I just really need a cup of coffee and to sit with a blanket over me for 20 minutes by myself and I’ll feel better and rejuvenated like I can do that I don’t need to call a friend to give me that and some people you know, some people might and that’s perfectly fine but there are lots of things you can give to yourself too so I think recognizing what’s going to make you feel better and sometimes I tell people you know if they do journal or they don’t journal it doesn’t matter but maybe just get out a piece of paper and write down all the things that really make you feel good and comforted and happy and like really really small like the cup of coffee like the warm blanket like your mom’s macaroni and cheese whatever um for very random examples here but I think you know that’s that’s what I would encourage people to do, I think it works.
Victoria Volk 57:54
Radical self-love. My newsletter my newsletter, as right now we’re recording it’s February and this probably won’t go live until like may April I’m not sure exactly when but at this time I my monthly series for my newsletter is self love as well it’s February you know, Valentine’s love whatever, the greatest love we can give is to ourselves. so kindly percent highlighting that yeah, it’s like, we don’t necessarily need to get anything from anybody. And really, honestly, that was a message that took me well into my 30s to understand late like probably in the last five years to be honest, like I can give to myself I don’t need to get from other people, and I should give to myself first. I should Fill my cup first I should understand what I need first. Because that’s been an integrity it’s living in integrity with yourselves, and I think we sabotage and and minimize the importance of that in grief and when we tend to be people pleasers or we have no boundaries I mean there’s grief brings up everything that you need to heal within yourself.
Arielle Arbrushites 59:15
That’s what I was saying before lead by example you know, like you know, you’ve learned all these things with the self love and everything else like so there you go, you’re leading by example and I can lead by example if this is what we can do to make ourselves feel better and we’re teaching other people It seems very simple, but you know, we’re, we’re teaching other people we’re really doing it.
Victoria Volk 59:36
And on that note, is there anything else you would like to share?
Arielle Arbrushites 59:40
I don’t know the you know, I always joke with people that I am a an overshare You know, I’m not just to share I’m an oversharer and one of my physician friends once said to me, You know, there’s no such such thing as being an overshare as long as you are only sharing your own stories, you know, if you’re not sharing things about other people There’s really no such thing as over sharing. It’s just sharing. And I always think of that, um, but I’m an overshare. So, there will always be things that I have left to share. But today, I think we had an awesome conversation. And I feel like we shoved a lot into one hour, which was pretty cool. You can tell we’re both writers, like, I get the vibe, you know? So, But no, it’s it’s been a pleasure. I’m just very grateful that you know, you had invited me to be on the podcast, I think you’re doing amazing work. And I’m just so happy to be part of it.
Victoria Volk 1:00:35
Thank you, thank you so much for being here. And there is one final question. I didn’t ask directly that I like to end every podcast episode with sometimes I forget. But so, what brings you the most joy these days?
Arielle Arbrushites 1:00:50
I have to say, you know, besides the, the examples of my family, you know, my husband, my son, my beautiful bonus daughters, Jeff’s two daughters, my animals. Besides those things, it’s really still writing, it’s still writing with the intent to help other people. Because I feel like that is what gives me purpose. And having a purpose is very, very important to me. So, you know, my family, of course, gives me purpose, but writing to share to help to guide is so so very meaningful to me. So that gives me so much joy. You know, something as simple as being on Instagram and sharing different things with people that brings me joy. Blogging still brings me joy. Being on the podcast today, you know, brings me joy, writing books brings me joy. It’s kind of like breathing to me. It’s it’s self soothing. And it helps me connect with other people. You know, I’m a social worker. So, I like to connect with other people. And human connection is very important to me, and writing is how I do that first and foremost.
Victoria Volk 1:01:57
That’s beautiful, I can relate to much of that, I’m sure. Well, thank you so so much for being here. This was a jam-packed conversation. I absolutely loved it. So, thank you.
Arielle Arbrushites 1:02:12
Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:02:13
All right. When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
