Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pet Loss, Podcast, Where Are They Now? |
Maha Bodhi | Part II: The Pet Loss & The Surrender That Cracked Me Open
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s guest, Maha Bodhi, who previously appeared on the podcast in season 3, shares her experience of saying goodbye to her dog and the grief she experienced as a result. Having to choose what she felt was right for her pet versus hoping nature would take its course is a struggle many pet owners face when their pet reaches the end of their life.
Pet loss is one of the most minimized losses. Those who don’t experience pet loss, and many grievers, often see pets as being replaceable. Although Maha did attempt to replace Blake’s loss with another dog a month after his passing, she quickly realized it wasn’t the best decision for herself or the other dog.
In the following months, Maha was reminded of what she had learned through several Heart with Ears sessions with me, Victoria, while her dog, Blake, was preparing to transition. And that was that grief needs to be honored, felt, and addressed. One of the ways we can do that, which I had shared with Maha, is through the Grief Recovery Method, as described in The Grief Recovery Handbook.
Maha took herself through the method in the book and found tremendous value and relief. Although going it alone is not recommended for reasons explained in this episode, Maha gained new knowledge and tools that help her better support herself and others during times of challenge.
“The degree of your surrender is the degree of your success.” – Maha Bodhi
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Welcome listeners to grieving voices. Today, I’m excited to bring back a previous guest for a part two recording Maha Bodhi, we initially recorded, and you can I’m gonna link to the episode in the show notes, but it was from season three episode one zero nine, a quest for inner peace and freedom. And thank you so much, first of all, for coming back to record with me and the reason why I wanted to have you back is because since we recorded, you had a devastating loss that you’ve worked through and you’ve moved through. And so you’re here to share that experience. And also, what’s kind of just blown up in your world since in a good way. So thank you so much for coming back.
Maha Bodhi: Thanks for having me, Victoria. I’m so excited to be here. And I’ve been looking forward to our conversation to follow up on our previous podcast. So, yeah, I’m excited to be here.
Victoria Volk: I had actually met Maha initially at a women’s convention thing. And you’re a public speaker there and, I don’t know, we connected after and kept in touch, and I actually invited you on my podcast. That was that first episode. And after that, you had reached out to me because you blake, your dog was incredibly sick, and he was going to be passing. That’s why I wanted to have you back here too to speak to that experience because it hasn’t really been covered on this podcast before. But also because you’re kind of on the other side of it now, and I want people to realize the importance of that loss that it’s because it is so minimized in our society, and if you would mind taking it from here and just speaking to that experience.
Maha Bodhi: Yes, absolutely. So I really, you know, I’m a a yogi first and foremost, and I truly believe that the universe always gives you the right people at the right time in your life that can support you throughout your journey. And we have met in the Woman Business Summit in the Conference where I was a public I was, like, the inspirational speaker, the keynote, and that’s how we connected, and you have this great podcast in Europe. You’re certified in Grief recovery, and that’s kind of your area of expertise and your superpower. And when we did the initial podcast, I truly haven’t experienced a tremendous loss in my life, so I wasn’t able to really speak to that. And it’s interesting that we did our podcast and that’s it and we went our separate ways.
Maha Bodhi: And then my dog and he was such an important figure in my life. Like, my dog was or I don’t have kids and we were really we had such as deep on it and I know a lot of dog parents can relate to this, but we were inseparable where I go. He goes. I would always tell my friends he’s part of me like a limb. Like he’s just always with me. We travel together. We do yoga together. You know? I do everything with him. And if, you know, I have even if it’s a a work opportunity and they don’t allow dogs, like, I won’t go. Like, that’s how I refused to leave him behind. And when I got him, he was he’s a he’s a rescue. So we really didn’t know how old he was. They told me he’s two years old, and then I took him to a vet, and they said he the vet said he’s five years old. But we really couldn’t tell.
Maha Bodhi: But I had him for eight years, and I thought that I still had more time with him. So I was really I was not prepared. It was a shock to me, and it happened so quickly, so fast that I took him to the vet and they said he has kidney cancer and he has and he’s gonna and he’s gonna die. Like, be prepared to make arrangement. I knew that this was gonna be a big deal for me. And I knew that this thing can I didn’t want it to break me. So I knew that I needed support. And I wanted expert support.
Maha Bodhi: And so I reached out to you right away because I knew you were certified in Grief recovery. You also kindly suggested that I hire an end-of-life Doula, which I didn’t even know such job existed, which I am so grateful that it exists because it’s such noble work to help people in, you know, the most difficult time of their lives. And like you said, I really think that our dog’s passing the way is really underrated. Like, when you tell someone my dog is not like, oh, I’m sorry. And that’s pretty much it. But for me, he was my whole life. He was like my child, mine, everything. And like I mentioned, like, we wake up together, we sleep together with you. So then there’s this emptiness when he’s gone. It’s like, what am I gonna do when he’s gone? And I really wanted the support that I need. I wanted to process this in the healthiest way possible. I know it was gonna be painful. I know it was gonna be hard. And so I just needed support. And we did a few sessions together, and it was tremendously helpful. And the doula was because you’re not we’re not in the same physical location. So the doula was actually here in Los Angeles, so she was able to come over and really had really hold my hand step by step. You’re helping me there, and she’s helping me. So I really got incredible support, and I’m truly grateful. Because with pets, it’s not just that, oh, your pet is dying, you have to make a decision. The most difficult decision that there ever is is whether you help them cross over to the other side or you let kind of nature take its course. And that’s the most difficult decision. And I just felt like oh my god, not only am I grieving his loss, grieving his illness, seeing him suffering, but now I actually have to make this the hardest decision that I’ve ever made is like how you and it has to happen quickly. It’s not like, oh, you have time to think about this. You have it’s like he’s suffering and you have to think and it was against everything in my nature. Are you telling me that I’m supposed to, like, I’m just gonna say, like, kill my own dog, like, that’s not in my nature, that’s not. And but then you see him suffering And I and it was just like, okay, what do I do here? And that’s where you helped me. And she helped me.
Maha Bodhi: And I’m a deep meditator. And I tried to we even did Reiki with my dog together, and I really tried to tap into his energy. But I also knew him so well because of our bond. And I knew he was kinda done. He was done and who’s ready to go. And animals, they’re different. They don’t have the ego that we have the clinging on to the life that we as human have. Like, he knew that his journey was over and his soul was ready to leave his body and he was okay with that. And so I just had to hold his hand and help him pass through when I had to make that difficult decision with the help of the doula. So we did everything together step by step. I actually I didn’t want to do the unionization, but what ended up happening is that he ended up having seizures. Like really, really bad seizures. I could hear his, like, bone clicking. And I just was like, I can’t, like, if it was me and I’m having these intense seizures, I would want somebody to help me pass away peacefully. So that’s what I did. And it was an emergency because it was just hot. It was, like, at it was, like, at three in the morning and then and I called the doula. I mean, how amazing is she? She’s, like, I’m on call. My phone is, let me know, and I’ll come with you. And I call her, and we go at three in the morning, we go to the hospital, and the hospital was amazing, and I’m just so grateful that we even have these resources and we have these people and we have access to this support because I’m not originally from the United States and most other countries don’t have these kind of resources. They don’t have an animal hospital, an animal room, where you can go at three in the morning and the vet is there and the staff is there and and and they know what they’re doing, their pros, and they know how to help you. And they put me in a private room and we were there with him the whole time. And I will say that I don’t have regrets. I feel like I did the right thing to do because of my the meditations and the energy that I was tapping in. I just felt like this is this is just the right humane thing to do for him. And then we and in the hospital, they take they take the that they take the pet and they cremate him or whatever you decide you wanna do. But because I had my doula, I took him back. I took him back and we washed him at home, and we did a ceremony, and we did a vigil, and it was really truly healing for me. It really gave me that closure because it was really, really stressful before and I had to make the decision and it was just so and then once thou was over and I was really able to grieve and sit with him and sit with and pet him and he’s just there’s a put flowers around him and just meditate and process the pain. And I learned this from both of you to really give myself permission to breathe. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to feel pain. And I would sit every single day and just allow myself to cry and sit and really create space. And I’m like, I’m just gonna sit here and I’m gonna and I cry and I but until I don’t feel like crying anymore, I’m not gonna resist it. I’m not gonna try to distract myself. I’m not gonna try to run away from this pain. I’m gonna honor this, this like that came into my life. And I will say that it was really, really healthy and I kept seeing you and I kept seeing the doula after a few times and until I felt like, okay, I think I’m now in a good healthy place. And I’m ready to take the next step of the journey. So really thank you to you, Victoria so much you played a tremendous role in this experience that I had.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing all of that. What people don’t really may not realize, like, you didn’t and maybe many other people listening don’t. Is that because I’m an end-trained end-of-life doula, and it hadn’t occurred to me either, even in my local area to pitch myself as an end-of-life doula to support people with their animals passing. Right? Like, as an end-of-life doula, we have this training that can transfer into these other areas of people’s lives like pet loss. And so I’m glad that you I’m glad that I had that idea to share with you and that you took it upon yourself to do that.
Maha Bodhi: I did not even I have heard of, like, the birth doulas that helped bring life into the world, but I did never heard about end-of-life doulas. And I think people need to know that there is support available and there is a healthy way to process this. You don’t need to do it alone.
Victoria Volk: And had this end-of-life doula, had she ever helped others, as a service in with pet loss before?
Maha Bodhi: Yeah. She’s Verint.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Maha Bodhi: Yeah. She’s Verint. She works mostly, like, with people that are past in the way, but also she said, oh yeah, with animals and she also said that it’s very underrated and people think, oh, it’s just a dog, it’s just a pet, but that loss is huge for me.
Victoria Volk: Well, and just like people who have a spouse. Right? A spouse passes away. That person becomes very much a fabric of your daily life. You have breakfast together or you have dinner together or you mow the lawn together, regularly what are all these activities, right, that you do on a day to day basis with a spouse, you were doing with your pet. And our pets are involved in our daily lives.
Maha Bodhi: So it. They don’t talk. They don’t, pets are just so unconditionally loving. And there’s also a chemical literally, a chemical withdrawal that happens because dogs are known to induce dopamine, induce those happy hormones in the brain and the body. They say just snuggling with your dog induces all sorts of chemicals that induce happiness, induce joy. And there is a chemical withdrawal that happens when I’ve been living with the stock for eight years I come home, and he’s jumping, and I’m smiling. Now when I come home, like, I don’t have a reason to smile. I don’t have a reason to giggle, to laugh, to run around because there’s no one there. And so that’s like literally a chemical withdraw that your brain has been used to your body has been used to inducing, and now it’s gone, and it really drops your energy. But I mean, like I said, because of the grief recovery, and, like, your support and we’re gonna talk about this in a little bit, I was really able to to process it in a healthy way.
Victoria Volk: And I do recall after he passed, you were looking for another pet, which is also our inclination. Right? Like, we want to replace that loss and
Maha Bodhi: Who said, don’t do it?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Maha Bodhi: I’m just gonna be really transparent. I’m gonna be really honest and I struggled with this a lot. But I was looking for another pet and you told me don’t do it because you’re just gonna replace you’re trying to replace your dog. And it just doesn’t work first. And I think you even sent me an article and I read the article And I just I’m just so emotional. And it hasn’t been, like, maybe a month since Blake, my dog passed away. And I just saw this furry animal online, and then he looks exactly like Blake. And I was like, I’m just gonna go and get this dog. And I went and I got this dog and I mean, it didn’t work out. Believe it or not, because I’m a dog lover. And I was like, oh, I will love any dog. It’s unconditional love, and it’s and even though I was aware because I was educated by you and I read the books and I understood that they say, oh, don’t just try to replace the dog. And I’m like, okay, this is a new dog. He’s a puppy. Right? Like, when he passed away, it was older, it was mature, so it’s a completely different energy. This is a one-year-old puppy active hyper different energy. We haven’t bonded, this is a new completely new relationship And so I even though cognitively, like, intellectually, I was aware of that, and still the reality of it was very different. And so it was very difficult for us to bond even though I tried. And I would walk him and we’d try to do training sessions, and we and we did all these things and he and he was very high energy. If I wasn’t breathing, it would have worked out. But he needed a lot of energy and a lot of attention that I didn’t have the capacity at that time to do. He was chewing everything, chewing the furniture, chewing the remote, chewing my shoes, and Blake was beyond that phase in his life. And so that dog needed more training, more energy, more. And if I was in a like I said, in a good place, I would’ve probably would be more ready for that, but I wasn’t. And it was because then what I was looking for was an emotional support animal. And what this dog ended up being, I was the one who needed to support the dog. And so it just it wasn’t fair for the dog. And the dog didn’t bond with me. So the dog, they’re highly intelligent. They’re so they’re just feelings. Right? They’re all, like, just intuition. They don’t intellectualize. And so the dog felt like this isn’t right. And so we tried for two months we did trainings. We hired professional dog trainers. And it was just the dog was so unhappy. Would distract the house, would it would try to bite me, would try to like, it was just the I can tell the dog was like, you’re not my mommy, I don’t wanna be here, and it was really sad and I had to rehome the dog. And I will say that I always judged people that overwhelm the dog. And I would always say there’s no bad dog. There’s only a bad owner. And this experience allowed me to change my mind about a lot of things. It was a learning experience, and it was my mistake that I didn’t honor the process grieving and I didn’t give myself time to grieve and I thought this would be just a quick fix and everything is gonna be okay and it wasn’t and it was really really hard and I was ashamed I will say to rehome him because people will come, where’s your dog? Where’s your dog? And I just feels so like a really bad person to say I had to overwhelm the dog. But guess what? The dog ended up having exactly the parent that he needed. Right? He now he’s happy. I even asked the new mom. I was like, is he chewing? It’s just like, no. He doesn’t chew in her house. He doesn’t do destructive things at her house. And so it was the energy. Just wasn’t the right energy. And ever since I haven’t, I haven’t gotten another dog. I was like, when the time is right, it’s gonna happen, and the right dog will find me, and I will find the right dog.
Maha Bodhi: But it’s definitely been a tremendously growth experience that impacted the work that I do. I’m an inspirational speaker. I’m a yoga instructor. I live with retreats and teacher trainings and all these things. And it really added a level of depth of my empathy, of my compassion, to people, to loss, to grief, and to understand it instead of running away from it. So I will say, like, before that, I was very focused on positive mindset, positive thinking moving forward And this was kind of the missing piece of the puzzle because the ying and the ying, that’s really part of life. And it is superficial for us to just focus on, yes, positive, positive and moving forward is a great way to live life. But we also really need to honor and process the darkness and process the grief. And there is multiple healthy ways to do this. And if you don’t and if you try to skip steps and you’ve tried to hack your way through it, it keeps building up, it’s building up, and it’s gonna come out one way or another, and you’re just gonna make mistakes. And that’s the beauty of life. It keeps nudging you in the right direction and it gives you exactly what you need until you face, what you need to face. And that’s how you move. And it’s called I’m sure you’ve heard the spelling post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic stress, that’s how you choose to grow instead of stress and get stuck.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing all that because I did not know that piece that you had actually gotten another dog in all of that experience. So thank you for sharing that. I mean, for people listening too, it’s it doesn’t have to be a dog. I mean, this can apply to relationships too, friendships, spouses. Like, I mean, this is what we do. This is our like, are instinct to do. We, like, we just wanna we wanna get over the pain. Right? And so we just wanna feel better and it just doesn’t work to push yourself through it or to sweep it under the rug and try to just
Maha Bodhi: Gonna come out one way or another, energy. It’s literally energy. And if you don’t give that energy time to liberate itself to process, to move through you, right? We know that saying about emotions or energy in motion, so they wanted to move, they want to. The energies want to be liberated. It’s us that keep them stuck when we resisted, when we try to cheat, when we try to skip steps, that’s when things get messed up. But if we allow nature to take its course. And we honor the process that’s where growth in learning happens. That’s where opportunity really happens. And it builds care and it makes you a better human in life and it makes you then better in relationship in your future because you’ve healed and you’ve processed what he’s processing and you’re not gonna dump your expectations and your pain and all the past information on this new relationship. So it’s not even fair to the new relationship just like with my dog. It wasn’t fair to that dog, and the dog was happier with someone else. And it’s the same thing like you said, with the spouse, with the relationship, with the human being. So we’re always trying to avoid pain as humans. It’s in our nature to do whatever we can do to avoid the pain, to run away from no one wants to hurt. Right? But it’s kinda counterintuitive that the caves you fear to enter, hold the treasures that you seek Joseph Campbell said that. And I always say that in my teachings, but leaning into the pain and processing the pain and allowing it to feel your feelings I mean, I can’t stress this enough to feel your feelings. And I’m not talking about to feel the story behind the feelings, but actually to feel the sensations of the feeling, and a lot of people don’t know how to discern between the two. So, like, feeling your feelings is, like, oh, I like, oh, I’m feeling I’m feeling sad. I feel I missed this person. That’s an emotion. That’s still you’re still at the level of the mind. But to feel the feelings, it’s this what is this sensation? This you’re missing this person or you’re hurting. You’re grieving. You’re you’re experiencing loss. What is how does that manifest physically in your body? It’s a physical sensation. So if I pinch you, The pinch, it’s a physical sensation. So is it sharp? Is it heaviness in your chest? Is it hollow stomach is it a fidgeting, a shaking in the legs. So it’s a sensation and it really took me a long time to get this. And so when we feel that heaviness in the chest, when we feel I sometimes I used to feel like my arm goes numb. And so what happens is that when we feel the sensation, the brain freaks out, and it’s like, okay, solution, solution, solution. Let’s run away from this. What do I? Because the brain is creative. Problem solving. Okay. Get another dog. Okay. Let’s go shopping. Okay. Let’s binge-watch. Okay. Let’s grab the drink. Let’s grab the alcohol. Let’s let’s do something so I don’t feel this sharpness, this numbiness, this heaviness. But the secret is that you actually wanna lean into it. You wanna sit with this. You wanna hold your own hand. And be like, I’m gonna be here. We’re gonna stay here and it’s gonna be okay. We’re gonna feel the feelings. And I’m not gonna abandon you. I’m not gonna neglect you like how everyone did in your life, I we talked about my upbringing in my past. And so we learned this abandonment. It’s really your abandoning yourself when you grab the drink, when you grab, you turn on the TV or you grab your phone. You’re doing what people who abandoned you did to you and you’re just repeating the cycle. But if you say, hey, you know what? I’m not going I’m gonna love you unconditionally. And I’m not gonna leave you when you’re hurting. I’m gonna be with you when you’re hurting. And I’m gonna feel the hurt, and we’re gonna be in this together. And then this tremendous liberation of energy happens. When you tell your brain, hey, you know what? You can go offline. You don’t need There’s no problem to solve. Okay? Just it’s okay. It’s safe to feel.
You can just be quiet and I’m gonna feel my feels. I’m not gonna try to fix it. I’m not gonna try to change it. I’m not gonna try to solve for it. I’m just going to feel it. It’s as simple as that.
Maha Bodhi: And the moment you wholeheartedly do this at the liberation of energy because that energy that’s being consumed and overloaded and trying to find an escape is now liberated. And there is this sense of freedom, and that’s where really true healing happens. And it’s almost like a superpower because you’re no longer afraid of the pain. And that translates in so many areas in your life, Victoria. I mean, it translates it in you not being afraid in the world anymore. You’re able to take more risks because you’re not afraid of the pain. You’re not afraid of rejection. You’re not afraid of doubt. You’re not afraid of uncertainty. You’re not afraid of the unknown because, hey, no matter what life throws at me, I’m I’m okay with that. I’m okay with feeling the feels. I’m okay with feeling the pain. And that translates into confidence in the world that translates and you’re really wholeheartedly showing up. Here I am, whole complete, not perfect, but whole and complete, vulnerable. Yes, I’m a human being. Yes, I have flaws, but I’m okay with that. And I accept myself unconditionally, and it all starts with leaning into the pain and allowing yourself to feel the sensations in your body and not running away from it.
Victoria Volk: So good. And when people listening, they couldn’t see what I was seeing unless they’re watching this on YouTube, but you kind of gestured to your left shoulder, which energetically is grief and despair. In biofuel tuning, that’s where we see often is grief and despair is off the left shoulder. So I just wanted to share that with.
Maha Bodhi: And when we worked together, you touched upon that because we worked and you would ask me these things where do you feel it in your body, and I didn’t even need to think about it. Like, I mean, right away, for me, it’s always my heart and then my left sided. And all and if it’s intense, like, when like, that it goes all the way down to my left arm, to my left fingertips, and normally I would freak out, before I learned about going for covering the pond how it manifests in the body and all these things and feeling the feels I would be like, oh my god my arm is going numb. Like, oh, let’s call the doctor. Let’s, what’s happening. Right? But now I understand this. And I understand what’s happening, and I just literally bold myself. Like, it’s okay. I know you’re hurting right now, and it’s okay.
Victoria Volk: So when you had this realization that this second dog was not going to replace Blake, that you had to do something for yourself to get to move through this. What did that look like? What was that process for you then?
Maha Bodhi: I rehome the dog and I just took a few moments. I just took it one day at a time to be honest. I took it one day at a time once at that time. And, I’m a yoga teacher. I have a very strong yoga practice, and I embody yoga, not just, I don’t know, like, a lot of people think yoga is an exercise. It’s stretching and exposes and it’s so much deeper than that. And for me, I embody it as a way of being I believe that yoga is a science. It’s a science of being in the world. It’s a science of living healthy in the world. Not only in your body, but in your mind and in your heart. And so when stress builds up in your body, when your arm goes numb, when your chest is hurting, that’s energy in your body. And when we move the body in a very specific way, in a very mindful way, you’re helping that energy to process. You’re helping that energy to move. So yoga is deeply connected to the nervous system. It’s connected to the mind, to the brain.
Maha Bodhi: So I had just had my practices, and I check-in with myself every morning I wake up and I’m like, okay, what is the diagnose? How am I feeling today? Because sometimes if you’re breathing too intensely and the body is too overwhelmed, you actually don’t wanna do the invigorating sweaty power yoga classes. You might wanna move a little bit slower and a little bit more gentle and do the more gentle flow. So I would every morning wake up and check-in with myself, how am I feeling today? Do I need to pick it up a notch? Do I need to slow it down? In the evening, I always journal to process my thoughts, so they’re not just floating in my head and overwhelming. So I always write I always start with gratitude because we do have a negativity bias that the brain automatically wants protect you from danger. So the brain is always looking around what can go wrong. And so practicing gratitude is grabbing the steering wheel and be like, no, no, no, yes. There are hard things in life, but there’s also really good things in life, and let’s not lose track of those good things. So I would right away start to write three things that I’m grateful for, and they could be as simple as, I don’t know. I had a a nice smoothy today. You know? It’s it could be just as simple as that. And then if there’s something that I’ve been struggling with, I’ll key I’ll start to process it and I’ll start to write it down. In the moment you start to write things down, you it creates a little bit of clarity and you will start to really see things and you start to see even patterns in your journal and you start to see, okay, this is just, me in my default state and I actually have control in in the way that I process information in the way I process the world.
Maha Bodhi: So I always say we see things not with our eyes. We see things with our mind. And it was Dr. Wayne Dyer that famously said when you change the way you look at things, the things that you’ll look at begin to change. Right? And so and that’s what journaling does for me. It changes the way I see things, it changes the way I process information, and it gives me an opportunity to make a choice because we always, always have a choice even though when it doesn’t look like we do, we have a choice.
Maha Bodhi: So those are my practices for the longest longest time, yoga, journaling, and my work, my work is really participating and helping people and being of service and contributing to society. And so because my work is deeply integrated with my personality, there’s I’m very fortunate. And you this. I used to work in the corporate world, so it wasn’t always like this. I used to have to be two separate people. I used to be have to be, Maha at home and then Maha at work. But because of now I’m so fortunate that I get to do what I love, and I am a living, breathing embodiment of what the practice of yoga is, there is no separation. So it’s either I’m either practicing yoga or I’m teaching yoga or I’m creating something around yoga. And that I really heal through the work. When you do meaningful, purposeful work, you heal through the work and then you see people come to me and I can be just saying something so simple and they come to me thank you so much. You have no idea how much I needed to hear that. I don’t know how you knew what I was going through. And I’m like, I didn’t. No. But you need but you heard exactly what you needed to do. And yoga is so universal that it applies to literally almost every person no matter what you’re going through.
Maha Bodhi: So really that’s that’s how it helped me through. It wasn’t until recently that I actually did the grief recovery program. And I know when we were working together, you were telling me, and it was honestly thanks to you because I didn’t even know it. It even existed. I didn’t know much about grief. I’m gonna say that during those things to you that I really am now educated. You recommended. You and you kept drilling it. You’re like because we log in and we’d have a session like this, and I’m just, like, complaining complaining complaining. Like telling you about all my pain and what I’m going through. And you keep telling me you have to do the program. And I think I was just in so much pain at the time, and enrolling in a program felt overwhelming. And I was like, oh my god. I am dealing with this, and now I have to do a program, and I have to, like, write things and all these things. And I was like, I just don’t have the mental capacity to do it.
Maha Bodhi: So again, I was trying to skip steps. Again, I was trying to cheat my way through. And like I just mentioned earlier, there’s it comes out one way or another. That energy is gonna be dispersed. It’s gonna slowed one way or another. So it wasn’t until very recently, and I think it’s been, like, more than a year since we did our sessions. And it wasn’t until very recently that I kept feeling this level of grief. And you know grief is not like, okay, my dog died and that was a horrible thing, but it’s not it’s not just that grief. It’s all the griefs that you felt from the day you were born, one on top of the other, on top of that that you never processed in a healthy way. So that energy kept building up, building up, building up until, the dog dies, and then it’s and then it’s an explosion. And so then that just kept happening. I just noticed that I’m very sensitive and I’m very easily I don’t like the word triggered, but I just I I just wanted to I I just wanted I’m like, okay. There’s something off here. There’s something off here, and it just won’t go away. And I noticed because of my love of awareness, this voice in your head or this pain in your body. If you don’t pay attention to it, it just keeps getting louder and louder. And louder until it forces you to stop and drop everything and look at me. That’s what it’s saying. It saying, look at me, I need your attention. And that’s really just reached a point where it happened, and I can’t tell you that it’s like a specific incident. I think it was just an accumulation of events. And I was like, you know what? I need to nip this in the butt. I need to find the source of this grief and process it in a healthy way. And I remembered you and I remember the grief recovery program. And I was like, let me look this up. And I looked it up, and I found the book, and I bought the book, and I started reading the book. And I just started doing the exercise because it’s literally a workbook and it’s a step-by-step workbook and I just kept doing it. And I’m not gonna lie to you even though, I’m in this field of healing. I’m a yogi and all these things. It’s not for the faint of heart, and I was nervous. And I honestly see the value of having someone like you a guide to guide you through. I just thought I was like, I’ll just do it by myself, and I just did it by myself. And in the book, they always say it’s better. So much better to work with someone, but they also give you an option to to do it on your own. So I just follow the instructions to do it on my own, and I drew the graph the timeline of my and it always usually starts with your parents because that’s, like, the oldest grief ever. It always starts there. And so I did that and I did one for my mother and I did one for my father and I was so scared and because they tell you to write things, to process, to write the statements. I’m like, are they gonna tell me to show them this statement?
Maha Bodhi: And I was like, I almost stopped at that point because I was my subconscious mind locked in that fear, just locked in and I stopped at that crucial point, which I’m not supposed to stop. And I stopped, for a couple of days, I stopped just like, oh, tomorrow, tomorrow. Like, you know, like, I’m just so scared. And then and then I felt that the energy. Right? It’s like it’s like it wants to be released, and it’s like I’m like I stopped in the wrong moment. And I’m like, this is not gonna go away until I cross the finish line. I need to cross the finish line. And I need to trust. I need to trust the process. This grief recovery program was built in the eighties or something. Right? So it’s time-tested.
Maha Bodhi: Over forty years. Yeah.
Maha Bodhi: I don’t know, like, how many thousands and thousands of people have been, you know, went through the program and it’s highly highly recommended. So I was just like, You know what? You have to trust to this and not trust your fear. They know what they’re doing. Let’s just finish it. And if it ever gets too scary, you could always stop. So then I finish it, and it’s funny the moment I opened the book. It’s like the only I read, like, flipped to the next state. Exactly. You should never do not send this letter to the person that you’re, you know, mad with or grieving with or and I was like, okay. There’s no confrontation. This is really more about me and my feelings and my grief, and my personal journey because really that’s what it’s always about. It’s your relationship with yourself more than your relationship with other people. It’s your relationship to the grief. It’s your relationship to the pain, not the person that caused the pain. And so I did I finished it all the way to the end and I instantly instantly felt a weight lifted off my shoulder, off my that literally, that physical pain that I told you in my chest, in my arm. It was like, like, lifted, like, immediately. And I was like, oh my god. Why did I wait this long? Why did I not listen to Victoria?
Victoria Volk: It’s never too soon. It’s never too late.
Maha Bodhi: And just because, like, well, why did I kept torturing myself for this long? You know, and I’m very strong. I’m a very strong person. I think that didn’t serve me because I’m like, I’m strong. I can handle this. I can do this. But there’s no reason to suffer. There’s no reason to power through this, and they talk about this in the book, like, if you have a cut, like, if you’re hurt, are you gonna wait? Are you gonna, like, oh, next year, I’ll deal with it. I’m like,
Victoria Volk: Let me just let me just let it let’s just let it fester and ooze with bacteria first.
Speaker 1: I’m strong. I’m tough. I’m gonna tough it out versus, like, you immediately wanted to clean it up and you wanna nurture and intend to and allow it to heal in a way that it deserves to be healed.
Victoria Volk: Well, and thank you for sharing that because I didn’t know that either. And so to have you share the testimonial of the process for you is beneficial for the listeners to hear. I do want to share that so I tried it alone too. I was just like you. However, I was not I wasn’t as what’s the word? I hadn’t evolved myself and my growth to the point where you had been at the time that you did this on your own, for me to have this awareness of myself to do it on my own. I tried to do it on my own and I realized really quickly that I needed, one, the accountability because for exactly the reason you said, Yes. Because this and even in the program when I’m working with someone in person or online, I tell them you know, next week, you’re not gonna wanna get on Zoom with me. You’re not gonna wanna put your shoes on and get out the door. And I’m telling you, do it anyway because when you’ve already pulled off that scab. Right? And if you don’t tend to that wound, this is when those old behaviors and these old patterns start to come back. And it can actually put you back in progress. Like, you can actually go even it’s like when you lose fifty pounds and then you gain a hundred. Right? Because you fall off the wagon and you just give up on yourself. It’s the same way in this work. And so I don’t encourage anybody to do it on their own for those reasons. Because it can
Maha Bodhi: Of course. I agree. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: However, you’re different. Everybody’s different, but you are in a different place in your own evolution of where you were too. Yes. And you were you I know I feel in my heart that had you felt yourself stuck in that place that you would have reached out to me.
Maha Bodhi: Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Or another grief recovery specialist that you could have finished that work with?
Maha Bodhi: Yeah. Absolutely. Yes.
Victoria Volk: So I think it’s important for listeners to know, yes. Grab the book. Learn a lot because you will. You will learn a lot. But don’t go into it, adamant, hell or high water, you’re gonna do this yourself because you don’t wanna set yourself up for, first of all, that disappointment. Right? And then there’s shame in that too. Right? Gosh. Canning. I can’t do this. I just I can’t even heal. I can’t even do this myself. Like, you know what I mean? Then that
Maha Bodhi: Absolutely. Yeah. Now it’s it’s absolutely better to do it with with another person for accountability. Also for perspective to things that maybe you can see sometimes we get too caught up in our pain, in our shame, like you said,
Victoria Volk: Can’t see the label from inside the jar.
Maha Bodhi: Yeah. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: And for anyone listening to, it might be let’s say you’re in a household of people. Right? You live alone and not everybody lives alone. And so you might be afraid somebody might find your writings and things like that. Right? That can be a worry for some people. I actually just discovered an app. It’s called day one, and it’s for journaling with your voice. Okay. So for a lot of people, if they don’t feel like they can just for the journaling piece. Right? Like, I don’t suggest doing using day one to do this grief recovery work. But, I mean, if it helps you move forward and helps you get to a place where I can finally reach out for help. Right? Because sometimes we just need to realize, I can’t do this alone. I do need support because that was me for over thirty years. Right? I got this. Like, I can do this myself. You know, the DIY or that was me. But so how has this work going through that process now and being on this side of it, which I really fully wholeheartedly believed eventually some day you would circle back to. Because that’s what loss does. Right? It just kinda worms. Because I was even gonna ask you what loss like, what came up for you that would have been a better lead to the squad to you talking about that. But what losses came up after you lost Blake? But you just described that. But how has this work now? You mentioned briefly that it’s influenced or maybe it was before we started recording. It’s influenced your work and what you how you work with people today. But, yeah, what’s happened for you since doing this? How does it change things for you?
Maha Bodhi: Change my yeah, definitely with the work that I do, you know, I lead teacher trainings and these teacher trainings are trends formational, and they’re long, and they’re challenging, and they’re physically demanding, and it’s a two hundred hour train, and you go throughout and you go through this journey of ups and down. Sometimes you feel triumphant and sometimes you feel like, oh my god, this is too hard. And it could get emotional and your grief can come up because the mind and the body are deeply connected and we just talked about how the emotions manifest as a physical sensation in the body. And with yoga, what happens is that when you hold the pose because of the nature of the practice, you hold the pose, for a little bit longer than you would do in a gym and other workout. And you’re you’re guided to be present in the pose. And to quiet the mind because it is a meditation first and foremost and we add the poses to the meditation. So a lot of people get it mixed, and it’s just a workout. But if yoga is, first and foremost, the removal of the fluctuations that disturb the peace within the mind. That is the very definition of yoga according to Potentially in the yoga sutras. And so when yoga is taught, traditionally and properly, you’re in the yoga pose and it’s, yes, it’s challenging. Some can be very challenging. And you hold the pose, for a minimum five breaths. And you’re guided to breathe. You’re guided to quiet the mind. And be present to the challenge and not escape the challenge, which is literally a rehearsal. That’s why we call it a practice. Because it’s a practice for how to live life. It’s a practice of how to quiet down the mind and to be peaceful in the mind. And to be present in the heart and present in the body and present with the challenges and that’s how you kind of cross that threshold because it it challenges you to go be a little bit beyond your edge. Right? And that’s where growth happens. That’s where transformation happens.
Maha Bodhi: And so I see people when they struggle, sometimes you see people break down and cry, especially if they have trauma, if they have unprocessed grief, and they’re going through this journey. And there is this, they crying so sweet. They’re like, I’m so sorry and I’m like, why are you apologizing? Like, there’s nothing to apologize for. This is a beautiful opportunity for you to process what’s being demand it to be released, that your body has been probably craving a moment like this, a moment of liberation of this energy that has been stuck for, God knows how long in your body. And this is the only time that you’re able to be still enough and present enough and quiet enough for it to be released. So, cry. Go deeper into this pain. Don’t run away. Don’t apologize. Don’t try to fix it, don’t try to rush through it and just be with it.
Maha Bodhi: So literally what yoga is, it’s like an embodiment, a process, kinda a metaphor for your whole life. And so that’s the level of compassion and the level of understanding for me to recognize brief in others to recognize pain in others. And I know you know this. That loss is not always just loss of, death loss. So many things are considered lost, a grief of even just a dream you had, a potential that you thought is gonna be your future, and then it disappeared. That’s a loss. That’s a great losing a job is, you have to grief that. Losing that relationship. Even if it’s a brief small relationship, it’s the dream behind the relationship. That that’s what you’re grieving. So it can it can be so many different things and that just deepened my level of understanding of grief in that. And before that, before this experience that I had, I would probably be like, hey, you can do this, like, just breathe through it. Let’s you know, you’re stronger than you think you are because I’m such a motivational, inspirational person, but now I’m like b with this. Be present with this. I’m right here. I’m not running away. I’m gonna be here, and that’s okay. And I and I think that’s in a much healthier way. And like we talked about the balance of, yes, the lightness and also the darkness. And we wanna honor the darkness just as much as we’re honoring the lightness. And you see that symbol, I love it because it explains everything. Right? It’s the yin, the yang, the lightness, and the darkness. But within the darkness, right, there’s a little bit of light. And within the light, there’s a little bit of darkness. That it all belongs and it’s all part of the holistic experience, the holistic human journey. And once we understand that and we embrace that and we accept that as a whole. Really your life experience, the way you navigate through life, becomes way more graceful, way more peaceful, because you’re no longer grinding, you’re no longer hustling, any fix it mode, trying to change the world around you, and you’re literally flowing with the current. Right? Like, paddling down a canoe down the river and you’re letting that river kind of carry you through and you’re just in it for the ride. Yes, you’re navigating. Yes, you’re choosing where you’re going. But you’re literally trusting the current of life.
Victoria Volk: Trusting the current of life. I love that. Yeah. We have really difficult time trusting. Right? Trusting ourselves. And so we have a difficult time trusting others and trusting the process. Right? of of
Maha Bodhi: But that’s the level of them. It’s always trying to some. And the truth, it’s like so useless because that’s the energy that’s just being consumed and depleted and drained and really use useless way of using your mind, using your brain. It says that, like, the most sophisticated technology in the entire universe exists in your brain. Right? And no one gave you the manual. And everyone is using their brain in wrong. It’s so sad, but everyone is using their brain wrong, solve it, solve it, solve it. How can I fix it? How can I control the world around me? You cannot control the world around. People are gonna die, your heart is gonna get broken, bad, things are gonna happen, and good things are gonna happen and then you’re gonna grow and you’re gonna be stronger and you’re gonna succeed and you’re gonna laugh and you’re gonna love and you’re gonna be all these things are part of the human experience, but you trying to control it is a waste of energy is a waste of time. But being present for the experience and seeing what’s unfolding in front of you and then participating in this unfolding whether it’s positive or negative I’m not checked out. I’m going to participate. I’m here for it all.
Victoria Volk: And there are tools to help you do that.
Maha Bodhi: Absolutely. Yes. And I know you have you know your your grief program. I have my yoga program, and it’s not one size fits on. They’re all these they’re multiple tools and yeah. I’m a yoga teacher, but I need a grief recovery coach. I need an end-of-life doula too. Like, you need different things for different experiences that you have in your life. And there’s plenty of that. We are so fortunate to live in this day and age where we have, you know, access to resources and information.
Victoria Volk: And so please share with my listeners some of your tools and where can people find you and work with you. When you got cooking.
Maha Bodhi: I can
Victoria Volk: know you got something to know better.
Maha Bodhi: I will say that the most, like, in-depth and premier experience that you can have with me is my yoga teacher training. My yoga school was accepted by Yoga Alliance under elevated standard. It was unprecedented. They’re, like, a yoga they were, like, this is the fastest that we’ve ever accepted a yoga school. I put so much thought and so much work into it. And it’s really the work of my entire life that led me to this moment. So all the pain, all the grief, all the growth and all the strength that I accumulated in all the education throughout my life. And I truly believe that this is my offering to the world and this is the reason why I am here in the world is to teach the science of yoga, which is a science of how to be in the world. So it doesn’t really matter if you wanna be a yoga instructor, It’s a way to help you, like we talked about, navigate through life with more of a embrace, and you literally take your power back, you take your mind back, you take, control of your not external environment, your internal environment.
Victoria Volk: So where can people find you to learn that?
Maha Bodhi: Yogimaha.com. It’s my website. All my events are there. So my teacher training, the dates, all the details, how you can sign up, is there I lead yoga retreats, from time to time. So if there’s any upcoming retreats, you’re gonna see it on my website. I’m on social media, @yogimaha108, so you can follow me on Instagram, on Facebook. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve shared today. And I loved this follow-up in this part too. I think it was much needed. Because we can see, we can have this bird’s eye view or this be the, like, the fly on the wall of a conversation of someone’s life. But to see it in this stent. Right? Like, to see the I always wonder, like, sometimes when I hear a story, oh, I wonder what happened to so and so. And so I think it’s important that we share the darkness in this light. Right? Because you had that in your first episode, but then life continues. Right? And it stuff gets are on our way and challenges happened. And so thank you for sharing about Blake and how that experience just really opened you up even more to this deepened learning and experience. So thank you.
Maha Bodhi: So honor Victoria. Thank you so much for having me, and I’m so glad we were able to have this follow-up.
Victoria Volk: Check out Maha’s website, yogimaha.com. I’ll put the links to everything in the show notes. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Healing, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Spirituality, Where Are They Now? |
Phoebe Leona: Where Are They Now? | Magic in the Mess
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week, we catch up with previous Grieving Voices guest Phoebe Leona.
I had received a newsletter from Phoebe providing some updates that, I felt, would be a great episode to talk about the potential/impending loss of something she had built with love, sweat, tears, and probably plenty of finances, too.
Sometimes to grow and evolve, we need to close one door so another may open. Little did I expect that as this episode goes live, I feel we could record a third episode – stay tuned…
Back to this episode; this is for you if you are feeling stuck in a mess and having difficulty feeling the magic of the situation and your experience. As Phoebe shares in this episode: “When it is meant for you, you cannot mess it up.”
Be a fly on the wall of this conversation about growth, hard transitions, finding love again, and perhaps more importantly…finding yourself and the magic while in the mess. Or, as I like to say: the thick of the ick.
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Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m so happy that you’ve pushed play on this episode. And today is a where are they now episode. And I’m following up with my previous guest Phoebe Leona, where we originally had our episode. The first episode were recorded, went live on March twenty-ninth twenty twenty-two. It’s episode ninety two. And it’s titled, I’m only grieving Fridays. And it was all about her experience of losing her father and how that was the catalyst for all of the change that she described in that episode. And now we’re back for Phoebe 3.0 because there’s been a lot of change in transition and a new evolution to Phoebe’s life that I came across because of her newsletter. If you don’t know, when people become guests on my podcast, I often tried to keep up with them and whether that’s on social media or their newsletter or I think a lot of my guests become friends. And so And I’ve always been the person that, like, loves to, where are they now? Right? Like, the eighties pop stars of the one-hit wonders. I’ve always looking up, like, wonder what happened to them, you know. So today is the I wonder what happened with Phoebe. So here she is ladies and gentlemen. TV, what brings you to the podcast? Actually, I asked you to come back on the podcast. So let’s get that great. But I would love to have you share with me what has transpired since we last recorded.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me back, Victoria. It’s such a joy to be with you, and I was before we press record, we were thinking about when was it that we sat together. And I think also, since then, you came on my podcast, so that’s where I was getting my dates confused. Where are they now? Where is Phoebe Leona now? Before, I think you said March twenty twenty-two. So my book did come out. We did talk a bit about that and how is about to be burzed out into the world. So the book was launched April fourth, twenty twenty two. So it’s been officially out for more than a year now. And it’s my little baby. It’s out in the world doing its thing. I did a bit of a book tour. It was on many podcasts. I also created this live experience called the rating experience where I brought together because when I and I don’t know if I talked about this that day, but when I was called to write the book, I knew it wasn’t just going to be a book, I knew it was something that was multidimensional.
Phoebe Leona: So with the medium of having dance being a primary part of my life and also was part of the book too because I talk about how dance really saved me and was a huge healing modality for me as I was going through all of the trauma and all of the grief throughout my childhood and my adulthood when I was dealing with the loss of my father and my divorce. So I wanted to bring that element to life. So I created this thing called Radian Experience, where it was a book reading essentially, but I was also dancing and I also had a friend who’s palette who brought some of the letters that I write to the emotions. She wrote she read them. Out as a poem as I danced, and we had a painter painting live behind me on a beautiful canvas and a sound healer. Creating a soundscape for everybody to be in that space with me those moments of my childhood, those moments of grief, and my adulthood. So that was a really powerful experience and we’re playing around with what more we can do with that. What else has happened with dear radiant one, my little baby, was nominated for best spiritual memoir by own times. Just recently, which I’m very excited about. Yeah. Very excited about.
Phoebe Leona: Thank you. And like I said, I’m just letting it do its thing. And I did talk a bit about my company, NoMad, which was birth from all of that grief of twenty thirteen when I went through everything. I always let NoMad guide me and I follow the breadcrumbs to where what it wanted to do next. And that’s how I feel with all of my creations, including Dear Radian one of, okay, I gave birth it. I put up my heart and soul into it. And now what does it want to become now that it’s out into this world? So I’m sure there’s going to be maybe another 4.0 version.
Victoria Volk: Guaranteed.
Phoebe Leona: That I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea what that will look like, but I’m that’s why I love what I do because I just lean into that mystery of what it wants to it’s a true co-creation. And I love having that space and that deep trust for the creation to just whisper to me or maybe shout at me if I’m not really listening. To say, okay, this is what needs to happen now. And yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So because you brought up co creation and I hear a lot of intuitive vibes in what you’re talking about. Can you share with people how you tapped into that personally and any advice that you would give to others to who may not be getting the message. And then what is that not getting the message play out like in real life. Right?
Phoebe Leona: Oh, I’m getting massive chills in my body. So this is a very good question, and I think we could dig deep into this. So intuition, everybody’s born with us, this idea of intuition. We have these clear abilities. And clairvoyance is one that I think a lot of people know to be, you know, the mediums or the psychics and they have visions. And we don’t necessarily need to tap into it and identify as a medium or a psychic. But we have these clear abilities, which means that we are able to sense the unseen world and have communication with our souls, desire, our guides, our angels, whatever you wanna identify with. I’m not going to label them for you. You can choose if you align with that or not. But there is some sort of sense. So when you just spoke to me, I got chills in my body. So this is a clearability of clear sentence.
Phoebe Leona: So my physical body is giving me or an emotional body as well was giving me signs like, oh, yes, lean into this. When you do meditations and you and you visualize, right, when somebody guides you through a visualization and you can actually see what your future could look like or where that scenario that person is guiding you to or maybe you just do it on your own. That is you tapping into that clairvoyance. So you can dive in deeper and do some research if this is a new idea too. But when we have these abilities to tapping to the unseen world. This is the tapping on the shoulder. Listen, this might be something here you. This is your yes. This is your no. This is that gut instinct. Right? We have even in our vocabulary of I just knew it in my gut. Right? Or you know
Victoria Volk: Spidey sense.
Phoebe Leona: Spidey sense. Right? We have this nomenclature for it in our worlds. And this is really us tapping into our intuition. Now my personal story with intuition was and I might have spoken about this when we sat down the last time I was super intuitive. I had this ability to sense the energy in my space changing that made me afraid to really use my intuition because what I thought was I was creating the scenarios. So my father being, you know, dealing with his PTSD, he would go into flashbacks, and I would actually sense the energy change when he was triggered. So before he physically acted it out in our worlds, in our reality that we were sharing, I felt it. And so when I felt that energy and then I saw it play out in my physical world, I thought, oh my god, I’m crazy, and this is a curse. So I share that because some people might not have had that dramatic story, but they might have had a conditioning. Right? A lot of times as children, we’re being conditioned to not feel these intuitive spider senses, as you said.
Phoebe Leona: We might feel very emotional because we’re in a situation that is unsafe, but our parents said, oh, that you shouldn’t be acting out right now. You can’t act your fears out or your anxiety out right now, so we had to clamp down on these emotions that are part of our intuition as well as children. So there is that looking at it as possibly that it was a curse or maybe it was just programmed out of you.
Phoebe Leona: And so I think it’s really important to know that it’s not a bad thing if you don’t know how to tap into your intuition. This might just be part of your story. And so if you’re curious to be more intuitive and lean into it, there are ways of getting there. And a lot of the work that I do with the somatic work, if that’s a word that nobody knows out there, it’s really just being in the body, it’s being embodied. Being able to tap into your physical body, the sensations that I said, the emotions that are coming through, not just getting lost in your head because a lot of times in our head. It’s, you know, not really truly in our reality. That’s not really our intuition. The messages that come through intuition are usually down in our heart space. And these messages come through as a very like, whenever I feel them come through, it’s just one word or a short phrase, and it’s usually like a heartbeat or like a metronome, like, yes, yes, you got this, might feel like a mantra to me. It is that gut sense. Right? It is that just you feel it in your body. If it’s all up in your head and it’s, oh, like, the squirrel cut, like, the dog and the squirrel. Like, the dog is just, oh, scroll there. Scroll there. Right? If that’s what your mind is doing or you’re getting on cancer, we’ll have all of these different thoughts. That’s not usually your intuition. Right? That’s you just kind of up there letting,
Victoria Volk: Anxiety.
Phoebe Leona: Anxiety. Yeah. Anxiety.
Victoria Volk: Stress,
Phoebe Leona: Ego, Fear, all of it run the show. So I feel that when we can start to really drop down into just listening not needing to know the answer, and that’s what I think happens a lot is something feels uncomfortable. How do we fix it? Right? Let me look at all the things and let me write out the to do list and let me take a class or look at YouTube or Google it and find, go outside of myself. To find the answer. But when we really can just drop down, take a few breaths, understand again, maybe tap into your clear abilities if you know what they are or work on focusing on how to strengthen those. And listen to what’s coming through, whether it is that visualization or whether it is that feeling in your body or whether it is maybe a sound, maybe there is an audio message that you receive or a sound, like sometimes I have ringing in my ears. So there are a lot of ways to listen to your intuition.
Victoria Volk: Repetitive numbers, signs, those two.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. The Angel numbers I see Angel numbers all the time, like, the seven sevens are always in my world.
Victoria Volk: Actually, I had two podcast episodes, recent ones back to back that were the exact same time. Oh, both episodes. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Did I upload the wrong episode? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: At the end on that today? Oh,
Victoria Volk: Oh,
Victoria Volk: So how did all of this play into the version of yourself that you’re stepping into now?
Phoene Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I’ve closed a business. I know I know what that process is like and it’s heart wrenching. Yeah. It’s painfully. It’s a painful awareness because you know how much blood sweat and tears you poured into something.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I’ll just say, from my own perspective, what I’ve come to know is that everything is just a stepping stone.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I didn’t fail in that business. You know, when I closed it, people I know people thought people even asked me, oh, we couldn’t make it or whatever because where I live and what I was charging or what have you and a lot of ego thoughts I had and myself too, but really it was I had to close that door for something else to come in.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I wrote my book, and then I started another business that wasn’t the right business. And I had a one chance off conversation with friend who I was working with, and she’s like, you know, for this one business, for my website. And she’s like, you wrote a book, didn’t you, about grief? I’m like, yeah, why aren’t you helping people in their grief? And I was like, Okay. Captain obvious. Good question. And so it was a question. You know, we can’t see the label from inside the jar, and so that one conversation has landed me talking to you again for a second time. It’s you know, so we have these moments in our lives that are truly transformative. Are what do they call those moments? What do they call it? A moment that changes everything.
Phoebe Leona: Like a pivotal.
Victoria Volk: Like a pivotal
Victoria Volk: Yeah. — pivotal point.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what happened? It’s changed. And how did that come to be?
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Okay. I feel like I wanna go back again because I didn’t fully answer your other question. So I wanna finish that, which will feed into that. And I also wanna bring other people up to speed because they didn’t talk too much about that part of what shifted for me in terms of nomad. So in terms of the intuition, what you had asked me is, what would it look like if you don’t listen to it? And that leads us into this question really.
Victoria Volk: Right.
Phoebe Leona: It’s basically I like to think of it as this child Right? You’re the mom or the father of a child saying, hey, like, just tapping on your shoulder. Like, hey, I need a little attention here. That’s your intuition going, hey, this might not be the best thing to do or go for it or whatever. And if you’re not listening to it, it gets louder and louder and louder until it’s like full on temper tantrum. So in the external world, that looks like, oh, there’s a challenge. Now we don’t sometimes we go, okay, I’m ready to step into this challenge or I’m going to ignore the challenge. Right? We make our choices there. But if it’s I don’t wanna call it the wrong choice. But if it’s the choice that our intuition is guiding us because it knows. Right? It’s our higher self. It’s our soul. It can see your life from a bird’s eye view, and it kinda comes back down into this reality. And it’s like, oh, that’s a good move. Oh, that’s not a good move. Right? So it’s understanding, learning how to trust it. And so that little child that’s tugging on you is going, go this direction. Go that direction. Right? Because you can see that bird’s eye view. But if you don’t listen to it, yes, more challenges, more obstacles come up, and it turns into that temper tantrum.
Phoebe Leona: So where I am with NoMad, that’s the company that I started because of the year of grief. I wanted to have power back because in that year, January, my father died. March, my husband of fifteen years, said, I wanna end our marriage. That started the domino effect of losing my home, my dog, my physical health was at stake because of all the stress. And then the one thing that was still there that I had was my job that wasn’t filling my soul at all. And it was a choice that I had made because of these other two people that were no longer in my life And so that was the one thing that I said, I wanna have control over this. I want to live in alignment with my soul’s purpose, which was to really create a space for people to have a sense of belonging and purpose. And what are the two things that I did at the time while I hot yoga, that was the modality, and I wanted to travel more. So we started NoMad from this place of wanting to feel empowered in my life again and have these other aspects of myself be, you know, fueled again. So I started a retreat-based business. That’s what NoMad was.
Phoebe Leona: And as I said at the very beginning with Dear Radiant, why don’t I just kind of when I create something, I follow the breadcrumbs. So Nomad has been not just a retreat based business where I taught yoga was the modality, but it’s evolved into another modality that I created, a somatic practice called Movement one o nine, that was one of the bread crumbs. It turned into local community events where we had two hundred people at the summer solstice bring coming together in my Hudson Valley community here in New York, it turned into me leading yoga teacher trainings. It also turned into having to go online when we’ve all went into lockdown and figuring that part of the world out. So it evbed and flowed and morphed and shape-shifted in so many different ways. And I just leaned in and they said, okay, what do you wanna do now, baby? Now when I started it, the other aspect that I wanted in that part was I just had this vision that it was going to be with my partner. Like, didn’t have a partner. But I said, if you build it, he will come.
Phoebe Leona: And he did it. I mean, I had a couple of relationships that it could have potentially turned into that, but they all fell apart. Because I was still going through my own grief am I, you know, recovering from my trauma. So a lot of those relationships as beautiful as they were, they triggered a lot, and they got me to evolve further by leaving them and then doing the inner work.
Phoebe Leona: So here I am almost ten years, I guess it’s we’ll be celebrating nine years this year of NoMad, still no partner, letting it kind of morph into things, but I’ve also taken all these other branches, like Movement one o nine, like my book, Dear Radiant One, which can fit under the umbrella of NoMad, but I was noticing that my community was under the umbrella of just NoMad was getting smaller and smaller. And I just could’ve, like, you know, like, square peg triangle or whatever that scene is, a square peg, round hole, whatever. I was just like, oh, no. Just oh, this is all, NoMad. But now I think that there’s something within what I’ve created there and I don’t quite know what it is yet. I don’t know if it’s a book.
I don’t know if it’s Movement one o nine. It might be a combination of both. It might be something completely new. I said in the I think I said in the email that you read. I’m sort of mushy. I’m in the chrysalis. So I’m just letting it morph into what it wants to become right now. But I am also grieving. Right? Here we are talking about our grieving hearts. I’m grieving because it is my baby. I put my hot blood, sweat, love, heart, soul, tears into it. And I’m kind of like, was that a waste of time? And it isn’t. Yeah. Absolutely not. And I really resonate with what you were saying about other people saying, you didn’t make it or you failed. And I don’t feel that. I feel I feel frustrated because I want Nomad to I want I see no I always see my creations as little babies. I’m like, I want my baby to see this world and really be the vision that we had together. So I’m letting go of that idea of NoMad might not get to do the things that we had envisioned together. So yeah. I’m hearing I’m getting a little teary. I didn’t show up. But I do have a deep sense of trust that something else is being born, and I just I have absolutely no idea what it is. And I have a feeling just sitting here talking to you right now, Victoria, that magic is happening.
Victoria Volk: I got full body goosebumps like I if you could see my chicken zips right now.
Phoebe Leona: You’re chicken. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it might just be and I invite this for anybody out there listening. It might just be that you would you just spark something within me hearing your words. That an idea will come out whether it’s just I walk away from that and go, oh, actually, there’s some insight that I hadn’t seen yet. You’re a mirror for me. It might be that you and I are gonna get off of this and go, oh, wait, what about this and this and this and we collaborate or you connect me with somebody or there might be somebody listening here and go don’t let Nomad, go to bed. I love what you’re doing. Did they reach out to me or somebody else, you know, is inspired by our conversation and they go make a big life shift? Right? It doesn’t have to be related directly to me. It might be that somebody out there listening is going, oh, I’m going to listen to my intuition and yes, I need to leave that romantic relationship or that job or maybe it’s time for me to take the leap and make that new step into what I most desire. So who knows what universe is doing right now as you and I are speaking.
Victori Volk: We’re cocreating magic.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. We’re cocreating magic right now, and the magic happens within the grief. Mhmm. It has to,
Victoria Volk: and I think because of it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. I just got chills again.
Victoria Volk: Let’s just talk this out then.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what was the dream or is the dream that you had for so long? When you started NoMad?
Phoebe Leona: It was it was providing a space for people who were making transitions in their life. Because I had just gone through and was still going through it. Right? That year of grief, that year of great loss, that year of stepping into the unknown. And as I was doing it, a lot of people were applauding me saying, wow, you made a huge leap.
Phoebe Leona: And I didn’t see it as that. I saw it as, wow, I just got jot down. And I’m taking this one little thing where I might have some power and I was claiming it back. And I didn’t see myself as any sort of hero and that I was just trying to survive, but people were applauding me in that sense of wow, I wish I could do something like that. And I thought, you can, why not? You know, it came sick in nature to me, but I also know that that came from a lot of, you know, I know you had a similar childhood like having to deal with so much chaos. Chaos. Exactly that you don’t know that you didn’t know you don’t realize you had a choice. Right? It’s just like, yeah. This is just what my phase. You just keep going and roll with the punches. So when I started to see that something that came somewhat second nature to me doesn’t come for other people, I thought, well, what if I provide a space what if I take them out of their ordinary life, bring them to a retreats, yes, they get to see somewhere beautiful and you know, have beautiful food and make connections and see parts of the world that maybe they never had seen before, but also see parts of themselves that they had never seen before and tap into this new not a new version I shouldn’t say that, but this version of themselves that they hadn’t really tapped into in this reality or maybe this time and space. Right? Maybe they knew that was a part of them and they lost it along the way. But tap back into that and say you do have the power. If you’re in a toxic relationship, you have the power to leave it. If you are not living in alignment with your soul’s purse purpose. You can leave the job or you can make a big move, you know, physically across the world or whatever it is. It might also be really small and subtle but it changes your whole internal landscape. So that was the vision. And like I said, when you and I say this a lot of my teaching when you know your why, when you’re so aligned with your purpose. The Whats? Doesn’t matter. So, yeah, use the what of the retreats, but the “why” that creating space for people to have that greater sense of belonging so that they could make those transitions in their life was my why and has it has been my heartbeat these whole years since then. And so, yeah, the what is wants to be something new right now, and don’t know what that is.
Victoria Volk: You missed a question though.
Phoebe Leona: How how how how in terms of what how what
Victoria Volk: How do you envision it looking?
Phoebe Leona: Well, I think that’s where maybe that’s a good thing or maybe it’s a bad thing. I don’t have, like, specific visions of how I want it to look. I envision it as this is why I’m showing up in the world. And I trust that universal provide the how and the what. And maybe that is my downfall. And maybe you’re giving me some insight as to get clear focus, baby?
Victoria Volk: Because this is the thing. It’s like we’re always co-creating or always manifesting, but the universe doesn’t know what to manifest or co-create or bring to you. Yes. You’re not clear on the how.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. Story of my life, I think, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: Well, here’s the thing. So, like, I mean, I’m not intending to turn this into, like, some sort of, like, coaching session or anything.
Phoebe Leona: No. I love I get pre therapy today?
Victoria Volk: Here’s the things. When I think of you and when I think about everything that you’ve talked about and shared with me, in the audience, I feel like you’re a very grounding presence for people. Right? So, like, when people are around you and you have these retreats, feel like you are very grounding for them.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But Phoebe grounded, how do you fly? Who encourages you and who is the person or what is it, what elements in your life are not, some people need accountability Some people just need a cheerleader. Some people need someone to challenge them. So I think so often too, like, especially helpers they have a hard time asking for help. Mhmm. And so am I am I nailing
Phoebe Leona: Oh, for sure.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. We got this. Yeah. And I mean, I know you want there was an aspect that you and I talked before, we press record that we’re gonna go to right now is this idea of love in my life. And That has been a huge game changer for me because, yes, going through so much chaos in my childhood alone, I did not know how to ask for help. And going through it again in twenty thirteen, it was the universe going, you need to ask for help Phoebe. And I did. I had to lean in to my family. I had to lean in to some people even strangers because I went to live in Costa Rica for a period of time and didn’t fluently speak Spanish, so I had to rely on strangers to help me. So it’s been a lesson the last nine years of ass asking for help, but still what you just saw, what you just reflected back of the ground in this, that was me going, I need to survive. I need to be really grounded here and not only because I’m a helper, like you said, and on hold space for other people, but I need to provide that for myself. And it was a little bit of survival mode. Right? Or a lot of survival mode. It was just holding on for dear life of okay. Gotta get my shit together.
Victoria Volk: Sols. Can I ask you? Yeah. They don’t mean to interject, but I just because so, like, it feels like because I know for me too, like, I had this grip or this hold. Right? On something, like, this is my identity. Right? Like, this is my identity. This is who I am. This is, you know, what who am I without this?
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like the only way to find out if that is where you want to continue to go as if just letting it go, like, backing away for a time.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I’m I think I’m in that, that’s why I’m in the chrysalis because it’s the that’s that mushy part. Right? When you’re in the crystal, well, from the little caterpillars in the chrysalis. Maybe we’re in the chrysalis too right now, who knows? But when we’re physically in that idea of the chrysalis, you become mushy. Right? You so you have to have that deep surrender, but at some point, right, when it’s making that shift to become the butterfly, there is the resistance. Mhmm. Like, it has to press out to create the wings. So there is this play between the deep surrender and that resistance of becoming the something new. And that’s really where I’m at right now of letting go of that identity. No man was my identity. For, you know, almost nine years now. And it is letting that go but there’s a there has to be a bit of resistance of like, okay. Well, how do you wanna see the next vision, right, and create that? And so that is, I’m not taking it as a cop out, but I am they I’m figuring out what the how is
Victoria Volk: The “How” that’s where we came back to is the “how”.
Phoebe Leona: Is the how because I’m kind of like, well, I was this for, you know, nine years. That’s all I knew to a certain extent because I was so had the death grip. Like, of Nomad and even though it’s letting it up and flow, but there was this has to survive because it was me proving to the world that I can do this I survived that horrible year and look what came from it, and I’m gonna use it. And you universe is telling me, like, you’re good. You’re so alive. You got this. You don’t have to just be in survival note mode now. You can actually thrive and spread your wings and fly. But I’m not quite there yet because I’m thinking, well, what is that gonna look like? And I guess maybe I’ll find out because the butterfly is not looking, maybe it is, and the, like, wings, like, oh, look at those colors. I’m not sure. Bright and then it just flies and it’s like, oh, okay. I’m crying. So I’m in that exploring process and there’s a little bit of playing with ideas, but also not being attached to them right now and seeing what what comes out of it. But I do wanna answer a little bit more, go a little deeper into this idea of the partner because I did have this vision of my partner is going to come in. But I had somewhat rules and regulation of what he was going to look like and be like because he was going to play a large role in my business, in my vision of them. And it’s really interesting because I’ve been completely single for six years now. Here I am doing my thing. I’m writing a book. I’m doing no mood or a pandemic. I’m still standing. And there were just all these challenges that came. Right? Everybody, I’m not saying I’m not doing a woe’s knee. Everybody has been gone through letting go of the old normal, right, going into that lockdown. There was a deep sense of grief during that period and letting go of your old identities, get letting go of old relationships, jobs, whatever. So I was in that at that time too and trying to figure out what NoMad wanted to be. And like I said, though, that was really when I was doing the square peg round hole and figuring out, well, let’s try to do online. You know, programs or membership or, you know, one on ones. And I was just, like, figuring out what it wasn’t. It just didn’t translate in the way of really being in person with people. And so, you know, the finances were not coming in, I was not receiving the abundance that made it not only thriving but not sustainable. I invested a lot in my book. You know, I did a hybrid publishing, which I am grateful for. I have really love the team of Grace Point, but it was a huge investment that I probably didn’t have, but I just going, it’s gonna pay off. It’s gonna pay off. And because I believe in myself and I even this morning, I was crying about that, my eyes are probably still a little puffy. And here I am about the the brink of letting go of my business and possibly declaring bankruptcy from putting my heart and soul in finances into it and steps in literally out of nowhere this man who just I met him and he’s my person. Like, there’s no doubt about it. And it’s it’s really quite beautiful how it happened because it somebody matched us up who I’ve known for twenty years and she’s known him his entire life since she was five years old. And just out of the blue said, hey, you two should meet. And it’s really quite beautiful.
Phoebe Leona: So I think that I did manifest the how of Nomad, but it also wants to become something completely new and different. And so maybe he’s stepping in because he does have a lot of similarities in terms of strengths that I don’t have that could really be a beautiful combination of what I envisioned originally. He even came to me with this vision that I didn’t put into his head. He said, I think we should do retreats together down the line. We need to do this. So it might turn into Nomad 2.0 after we reestablish our personal relationship and build that business or it might be that we need to co-create something completely new together. I’m not sure yet. And this is the first time I’m, like, publicly talking about this.
Victoria Volk: Well, I got my chicken zits again when you were talking about it. So it feels like truth to me.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of wild. So
Victoria Volk: Is that crazy? I mean, just sit just for a moment. Like, just I mean, we don’t do this enough. Like, just really reflect back. Like, life is crazy. Like, you just cannot anticipate the amazingness that can happen. Right? We don’t It’s like you will you think when you’re in the thick of the icky? The thick of the neck. And you’re in the thick of the neck. You can’t even fathom that there can be brighter days ahead. Yeah. You know, I had a client, one of my first clients, actually, after they became certified as a grief specialist, his life has just exploded. I worked with him for a time. He went through grief recovery with me and stuff. And, you know, at the time, like, his he was struggling in relationships and trying to get his business going and he’s a designer. He does — Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Now he’s into purses. He designs purses. Ended up on the red carpet. He’s, like, on the own network, the Detroit oh, love in Detroit or something like that? Remember the show. It’s a reality show. Like, it’s just crazy. How his life has just exploded. And he said in a post, he said something to the effect of, imagine living each day. You think today is the best day. But imagine if even tomorrow is better. Like, you have no idea. Yeah. Like live like tomorrow is gonna be even better.
Phoebe Leona: I love that. I’m I think this episode is called full-bodied chills.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. That’s good.
Phoebe Leona: Because I just kept getting chills as you’re speaking about this.
Victoria Volk: Okay. Well, there is a true crime podcast called Full Body Chills.
Phoebe Leona: Okay.
Phoebe Leona: You might have to call you know what? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: Play around with that because you and I just keep balancing our what did you call chicken zips? Chicken zips.
Victoria Volk Yeah. Chicken zips of truth.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, sure.
Victoria Volk: People would be like, chicken zips of truth. Why? I gotta listen to that one. Yeah. Maybe that’s a go.
Phoebe Leona: There we go. That’ll stop them in their tracks.
Victoria Volk: So what I hear is that you are very curious and excited about not knowing what’s to come in a way. Yeah. And yet surrendering to the how and just letting it unfold. But yet, at the same time, this is where I think, you know, you are a very grown in presence and maybe this gentleman that it’s come into your life, like who’s kind of been under your nose. Right? Like, because he was with the he was he’s a friend of a friend. Mhmm. Had you met him before?
Phoebe Leona: No. Never lived with me. We have so she was a Pilates client of mine here twenty years ago, and I knew her socially too. She even came to my wedding. So I had been to a couple of her parties, and so we have looked back and said, were you at that party? Were you at the upper end? We don’t quite know yet because of this so long ago. But, yes, very much under under each other’s nose. But we weren’t ready yet. And that’s something that I wanna speak into too is
Victoria Volk: Yes. Please.
Phoebe Leona: When when you are ready, the universe makes it so clear and says, get this is it. This is you’re ready now. Right? Here you go. Like, your client. Your client had to go through all of that grief and he was trying, he was showing up and doing his work. Like, ugh. And then all of a sudden, it just clicked. And now his purses on red carpets. And I swear I truly believe in that. And I’ve I have seen that in my own personal life. I’ve seen that evidence in the external world and everybody else in other people’s lives that when it’s meant to be for you, you cannot mess it up. It is just there. And that’s how I felt for this relationship. It was just we were not ready for each other and we’ve had many conversations because he’s done a lot of work on himself if he’s done, you know, he’s a life coaches while he wrote a book too. And it’s even funny when we see that our books, our covers, our same coloring, like, same kind of branding, very similar format. He shares a lot of his own childhood trauma and, yeah, maybe a guest for you, by the way. But yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So it’s just so funny because we’re laughing at each other. Like, we’ve been walking side by side but just weren’t we weren’t ready for each other yet. We weren’t ready for the relationship that we both want wanted for so many years, but we weren’t emotionally ready for it yet. We had to recover through the trauma to a certain extent and our own grief so that we could be ready. Right? He if I had met him six years ago when I had my last relationship, he would have been triggering all my traumas right and left, and I would have said goodbye, just like I did to the other two, man. And so I had to do this in our work for it to show up. And I say that because it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. It’s whatever you desire right now. It will show up when you have to do the work, though. That kinda like, it’s that balance of the doing and the being. Right? Because I think that in our world, we get too much in one direction. It’s the very western world of just do do do and have the strategy and check the things off the list. And, yeah, if you hustle and hustle, I played that game for so long and so many things didn’t happen in that world for me because I wasn’t allowing there that to be that surrender into that being. But on the flip side of that, if we’re just, you know, love attraction, I believe in it. I truly believe in it. But if you just do that and kinda lean back and not do any of the work, the thing isn’t really going to be truly yours. I mean, you might see it but if you’re not actually showing up and doing the inner work, going through your grief, going through recovering from your trauma, whatever it is that’s your karma and your dharma. Right? Karma is the lessons we enter into this world and the dharma as you shifted into your purpose. If you’re not actually playing with those two, yeah, those things might come on your radar and you might not see really truly see them or they might just float on by because they’re not you’re not aligned with them yet. So it is that play of the doing and the being?
Victoria Volk: You said something, and I’m gonna say, I’m I had a client, she asked me, Everyone else says you have to do the work. I’d get so annoyed when I’d hear that. Do the work. You gotta do the work. Well, what’s the work? And after she went through a group recovery with me, she’s like, I get it now. This is the work. Like, this is the work. So in your mind, what is the work?
Phoebe Leona: That’s a good question. For me, it’s awareness. I really truly believe awareness is the transformation. Now awareness can look different for people. So awareness might be that you need to be aware of your three d reality? Like, what is actually physically happening in your relationship? Or what is happening in your bank account? Or what is happening in this toxic situation at your job? Right? But also, it’s awareness of what’s happening in your mind, what’s happening in your physical body. How can you listen again to the spidey sense. Right? When you’re in those external relationships with the world and your body’s going, uh-uh, right, you have to bring your awareness to that so that you tap into that intuition. That’s really what I see the work is just being able to listen So it’s kind of funny that to do the work is actually sitting back and listening. That’s step one is that listening and the awareness, but then there is the, okay, now I need to take action from that place. Right? So maybe I do need to get a job that’s going to help you pay the bills or maybe I do need to leave that relationship or maybe we need to go see a relationship therapist. Or whatever it is, it’s actually taking the action and doing the work physically doing the work. And then there is the surrender., of okay, letting go and saying this isn’t working or I deeply trust that it is working, but I don’t see that. Evidence yet. Right? So that’s level three, step three of the work. I’m sure there are others, but those are the three that I feel are necessary in everything as I just talking off the cuff.
Victoria Volk: I love it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I love it. I love this conversation. And I wanna give you an opportunity. To share anything else that you would like to share?
Phoebe Leona: Let me think. I feel we should yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about grief because that is your podcast. Mhmm. And to know if somebody is out there right now who is grieving a relationship or grieving possibly the loss of their own business or whoever they are right now to allow yourself to simply be in that chrysalis. Allow yourself to get mushy. Allow yourself to I love what you at you pressed me to do is imagine the how or the what or the whatever it is that drives you. Right? It could be the how, it could be the why, it could be the what. But whatever it is that’s gonna just be your heartbeat for a little while. Right? If you’re in that grief space and you don’t know what is to come, find some sort of heartbeat for you that’s gonna get you up every morning and really build a relationship with physical support in your life Right? It might be one person, it might be a community, but then also what has really been a huge piece for me is trusting the divine, the universe, God, guides, angels. Whatever it is that you resonate with whatever word resonates with you and energy that resonates with you in that end unseen world because there is and energy. There are many energies around us that we don’t see and maybe not feel, but they are here and they are on our side and they are flying high above us, seeing a bird’s eye view. And I was in a session, if I don’t mind if you don’t mind me sharing really quickly I was in a, like, a call with some a group yesterday, and you probably have heard this. And I feel like, actually, now I’m saying that you might have even spoken about it, but the idea of the two footprints, two sets of footprints talking to God and saying God, why weren’t you there for me? There were times that I only saw one footprint and I was walking in a long loan, and God said that was because I was carrying you.
Victoria Volk: It’s a footprints in the sand. It’s actually
Phoebe Leona: Footprints in the sand. Yeah. And I just wanna remind everybody because that’s something that I needed to remember for myself is when we’re going through those moments of grief. There is someone carrying us even in those deepest darkest moments, in those mushy moments, in those messy moments. There is something here for us and to just deeply trust and find a way to build that relationship to trust again.
Victoria Volk: And someone is caring. Mhmm. And I think that’s what a lot of people forget. It’s like there are people that care you just have to allow yourself to be cared for.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that’s a hard one for us, helpers.
Victoria Volk: True. Yeah. It is. What a beautiful way to tie up this episode, I think. Where can people find you now if they’d like to reach out to you and connect with you?
Phoebe leona: That is an interesting question, Victoria. I’m not sure where I’m going. Social media, I’ll just say first of all, social media I’m on Instagram it’s my name @phoebeleona.love and Facebook. And then I do have my website, so I would say right now, they could go to phoebeleona.com that’s where you can generally see what I’m physically doing in the world. Then I have my thenomadcollective.org and Movement 109. Those are also websites, but they’re all linked together. Who knows if they’ll be there in a couple of months? Maybe they got, you know, floated away. Maybe they’re coming back in a bigger way. We don’t know yet. But if you find my name Phoebe Leona, you’ll find what’s happening now. And I think that’s a great way to, like, What is that girl doing? Let’s see.
Victoria Volk: We might have a Where are they now? Three. Yeah. Maybe in a year.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanna acknowledge you too because, you know, what you just said of being cared for is you did respond to that it was, you know, somewhat desperate email of, like, I don’t know what’s happening guys. Let’s see. And you were one of, you know, a few that responded immediately and I saw that you cared, and I know that you care so deeply for the people that you help. And the listeners that you show up for. So I just I wanna take a moment to acknowledge that. So thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Sometimes I need that reminder too, and I’m looking at her clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Since this is my labor of love, For sure.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But it’s been a great joy. And that’s why I continue doing it. You know, it doesn’t put food on my table, but it fills my heart. It’s my soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Mhmm. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Find your soul food people. Find your soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining me again. On kind of short notice, like, this was like, hey, wanna come back? Yeah. Let’s do it. Alright. I love that.
Phoebe Leona: You know, we had to do it while it was still mushy because, yeah, it wouldn’t have been that exciting if I was. Everything’s fine now. You know, hindsight.
Victoria Volk: I mean, that’s the beautiful thing behind you. Right? But when you’re in the thick of the ick. Right? The thick of the ick. And it’s not it it doesn’t have to be it doesn’t have to be this negative bad energy. Right? That we like, this drudge of it certainly, it doesn’t feel good. Yeah. But with for all the reasons that you said, it’s like lean into the awareness. How is this making me feel? What do I wanna see for myself in the future? What do I want for my life? Yeah. You know, these deeper questions that we are so afraid to ask ourselves Yeah. You know, one of my favorite segments on Saturday Night Live was deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: I mean, I was, like, ten, eleven, twelve, you know. Oh, wow. Because I’m aging myself now. This is when Saturday nightlife was, like, really good. But Yeah. But yeah.
Will Ferrell, deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Was it I don’t think it was Will Ferrell. It was before Will Ferrell’s time. It was because I actually met him in a certain week already. No. It was before Will Farrell.
It was oh my god. I know who it is, but he’s not in my brain right now.
Victoria Volk: I thought it was the same guy that was played Bob Ross.
Phoebe Leona: It was Al Franklin.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. Are you sure?
Phoebe Leona: Now that I said, and I’m afraid I am wrong, but hold on, Okay. We’re good we’re gonna fact-check.
Victoria Volk: I’m you know, I have a saying, like, with my friends. I’m like, I’m gonna get a t-shirt that says, Google that shit.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I think it was before Will Ferrell’s time. And I do feel I see his face. And Al Franklin was on Saturday Night Live? Yes.
Victoria Volk: Phil Hartman.
Phoebe Leona: Phil Hartman. What’s? Okay we both we both lost
Victoria Volk: Wait. No. Deep okay. Well, Jack Handy was an actual person. Learn something new today.
Phoebe Leona: That makes sense.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So they made affirmations before is, like, a big thing in our world at which I thought those.
Victoria Volk: Okay. It looks like I have to do some writing.
Phoebe Leona: You’re gonna have to fact-check and do a follow-up for the listeners here.
Victoria Volk: I see a connection between Phil Hartman and that’s segment, but I can’t like, I would have to do some reading. Yeah. Anyway, I will find it. Anyway, I digress. Have a beautiful rest of your day, and listeners, thank you for tuning in. And I hope this episode was helpful. And if it was, I hope you share it or leave a review, five stars if you feel so inclined. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Where Are They Now? |
Patti Herr: Where Are They Now? | Grief, Grace & Gratitude in Motherhood
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patti was my second guest on this podcast back in 2020. In our first recording, Patti shares more about what it was like being a young widow and later dealing with infertility with her now husband.
In this follow-up episode, Patti shares some wonderful surprises God had in store for her in the last three years, including the impact working through her grief with me has had on her life and parenting in the time since she participated in one of my grief recovery group programs.
Patti’s story proves that there are rainbows after storm clouds, how impossible it is to know God’s plans for us, and how beautiful the outcome can be.
Motherhood isn’t easy. However, handling the grief that inevitably comes along the way is possible with a little grace and gratitude.
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Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is a recap episode. A Where are they now with my second guest of grieving voices when I first launched in 20202, Patti Herr and thank you so much for being here and catching us all up on the past three years. Can you believe it? Almost three years.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’ll be three years since September since we initially recorded. That’s wild to me. The original episode was episode 13 and it was titled widow, miscarriage, and IVF. And a lot’s changed. Yeah. So let’s go back in time and talk about a little bit about that struggle with becoming pregnant and in your life at that time and what has happened since?
Patti Herr: Well, I it was kinda it wasn’t fresh but the being a widow was still fresh, I guess. And when I got pregnant, I was like, oh my gosh. How did this happen? I mean, obviously, you know how, but why, you know, I couldn’t give my husband my first husband a baby, and now I’m pregnant with someone who isn’t my husband. And so it was that was a struggle to do, but Now looking back, it’s crazy how I feel like he placed every single child into my life. He knew.
Victoria Volk: You had a struggle getting pregnant and you went through IVF. How and I know your last child though,
Patti Herr: You wouldn’t be. It was a surprise.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was not that idea. So can you explain a little bit? Like, what you’ve learned about infertility and about all of that, you know, experience?
Patti Herr: I questioned it. I was like, did we need to do IVF? Did we need to spend all this money? Like, why, you know, how did we get pregnant so quickly after knowing blah blah blah. But, absolutely, secondary infertility is still a thing. And I don’t think had anything to do with stress or anything. I just think that when you have a baby and when you get pregnant, like, your body almost, like, resets And I think that’s kinda what happened. I think my body reset and I ambulated one month and surprise surprise. And we didn’t think we could get pregnant. So
Victoria Volk: Divine timing, I suppose. Right?
Patti Herr: Yep. Yep.
Victoria Vokk: So how far are you
Patti Herr: They’re 23 months apart because she’s December and he’s November. So
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s so fun. You know, my older too are 18 months apart. And I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t really change it. No.
Patti Herr: It’s hard for me. Enorous kind of hard. But
Victoria Volk: yes. It my last one was a little hard
Patti Herr: In there.
Victoria Volk: But they’re the girls are two years apart. Mhmm. So but I did have them all within four years. Yeah. But I
Patti Herr: don’t know how you did it
Victoria Volk: I wouldn’t change it. It was it was crazy. It’s you know, those years are blur for sure, but now I wouldn’t change it, you know.
Patti Herr: Yeah. I think when they get older, it’ll be better because they’ll have to stay at each other and but right now it’s life is crazy. My house is messy. My house is lived in and Yeah. Life is good.
Victoria Volk: Grace.
Victoria Volk: Grace. Grace. Grace. Yeah. Lots of grace to go around.
Patti Herr: I was born people in, like, just or you know? I have three kids and it’s a mess in here.
Victoria Volk: And why do we think we need to apologize? Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk: I know.
Patti Herr: Because some women have their lives together. I do not.
Victoria Volk: Well and you know, it’s like a lot everybody’s circumstances and situations are different too, you know. It’s, you know, it’s I think in this day in age too where you’re working outside the home, and then you come home and, you know, they call that the second shift. That didn’t exist for a lot of women way back when, like, for
Patti Herr: Well, I’m not working right now.
Victoria Volk: But you are.
Patti Herr: Well, I am. Yes. You’re right. You’re right.
Victoria Volk: You are. You are.
Patti Herr: But we’re home all the time, and I think that’s part of it is, like, when you do work, your house stays a little bit cleaner for a little bit longer because the kids aren’t in it.
Victoria Volk: That’s true. That’s very true.
Patti Herr: When you’re home all day, they’re here all day.
Victoria Volk: There is a trade-off there. There is a trade-off. So you are also a client of mine when we first initially recorded. It was shortly before that, like the year before that, you had gone through the grief recovery program. And how do you think that that has I mean, does it still influence your life in certain aspects or ways?
Patti Herr: Mhmm. It’s still a huge eye-opener for me. Like, I still tell people about it, and it still kind of like in awe. Like, I went in to do this about my husband who passed away and I did about someone who was living. Like, it just in awe, like, how people grieve and who they grieve and it kinda just puts it into perspective. And I think it still and I still like, I don’t write letters out anymore, but I do them in my head kind of or, like, in my heart, I guess.
Because it’s been nine years. And, like, recently, June 9th was nine years for me. So But I still I mean, I still struggle with that living person every day, every single day. So
Victoria Volk: And how have you managed to have a relationship with this person?
Patti Herr: To kind of make my not my life easier, but to manage my life and my well-being. I’ve distanced, I guess, in a way I’m not close with that person. But I still have a relationship with them.
Victoria Volk: And I think that’s the gift of going through grief recovery is that you realize where you need boundaries. Yeah. Maybe where you didn’t have them. Would you say that that helped you kinda implement those boundaries?
Patti Herr: Yep. And it’s I used to feel guilty about it, like, not having that person close because, like, my grandpa’s always like, oh, we need to, like, be together on holidays and, you know, bury your family, blah blah blah. But at the same time, I can still have a relationship and have bound laundries and still saved my heart and my family’s heart a little bit. And our feelings, I guess. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced any loss since we past recorded?
Patti Herr: Not personally, but friends, I guess, I’m not super close friends with some friends, and then just in the community, they’ve had losses. There was just a widow last week. I guess, a lady a woman in Westlake that lost her husband to a tragic accident, and I had planned on going to the funeral and I just could not. Leading up to the funeral, I got very anxious and I just I wanted to be there, but I knew it was not gonna be good, so could not do it.
Victoria Volk: Have you thought about working on that relationship with your deceased husband?
Patti Herr: I haven’t, but It has been 9th years. You think I’d be over it by now, but it just Well, those things and it’s it was the day. Like, June 9th was the day we buried him. It was my fifth wedding like, it was my we got married on that day, like, my now husband. Like, I think it’s a really good day to do all this. But then also so that person, that lady in town buried her husband on June 9th, and I just It was too much on June 9th. And then there’s this there’s a lot in history on June ninth for people in Wishik as well. There’s just a lot of a lot of in the mid beginning of June, I don’t know why now, like, a lot of grief in the beginning of June. But
Victoria Volk: Oh. Yeah. And that’s I wanna circle back to what you said. Like, it’s been nine years. I should be over it by now. And I think we tell ourselves that even two, three, four years in, forty years in. Mhmm. You know, people would say that people say that to other people. You should be over it by now. Okay. The thing is is what that process. And you know this, what that process helps you do is become emotionally complete so that when those days come, they aren’t as they don’t feel a sharp. You know? It’s like it it kind of softens the hurt a little bit, you know.
Patti Herr: I should have done a letter that day, but, like, because I’m good with the day with Jared. Let good with it, but, like, I know how to manage it. But then when that funeral came up, it was it was hard. And I knew it was like yeah. So I took a salad and I did some things around the church, but I just couldn’t do the funeral.
Victoria Volk: And that’s okay. Yeah. That’s okay.
Patti Herr: And I didn’t even know him really that well. I just know her and her family and I still just I mean, it brings back so many memories and it’s hard for that day.
Victoria Volk: I had someone ask me yesterday, you know, what do you they’re gonna go visit somebody who is very ill and die essentially. And she had asked me, what do you what do you say to somebody? Who’s dying or what do you say to somebody who’s going through something like that? And because you had that experience of being a widow, is there anything that you would have liked to have said to her or would like to share with anybody listening who may be experiencing that right now, that that you found helpful or that, you know, from your experience that you would like to share.
Patti Herr: Looking back, during, like, the planning process, I don’t feel like I was there really because I don’t like, then a year later, we buried my husband than dad. He died, passed away the day before, a year later. And I feel like I don’t remember planning any of that stuff. I feel like I left it into a lot of the family’s hands. And sometimes I wish I would have been more involved in picking things and but I just emotionally could not do it. So I just think, like, as for as far as advice, grieve, like, how you want because and there’s no timeline. Like, I say it should be over it, but there really is no timeline. And there are some people that are quick to judge and it’s been this long, you know. But can you really put a timeline on that? I don’t know. I don’t think you can. It would children, with husbands, with anyone in your life. Like, I don’t think you can put a timeline on how long you should grieve. Because or how? Like, I just don’t think so I feel I and I have told the widow this, like, you should just grieve how long you want, how you want, don’t let people influence you, keep those people close that wanna be close, like let them in because that’s those are your true friends. I lost people. Lost friends when Jared died in. It’s not like I did anything. Like, I’m not the one that made him pass away. And I still lost friends. So I just feel like your life will change, and you’re just gonna have to learn how to cope with that. And I think your class would be a great and for that when you’re ready. I don’t think you should have to do it right away or push to do it right away, but eventually, you need to start coping and learning how to cope. I didn’t do the counseling thing. I maybe should have, but I didn’t. So but just talking to someone, learning how to do deal and cope with things is very very high up there, I think, on the advice.
Victoria Volk: And one thing I learned too, just working in the groups, having you in the group and working with other clients one on one in the since, you know, in past three years, four years is now I actually have lengthened the one on one program to twelve weeks, and we work on two relationships. Because I think yeah. Because I think that you know, it’s not this one and done. Mhmm. I think once you work on one and then you work on another significant relationship, it kinda solidifies what you’re learning. And I think it just helps to really get a hang of the process because it is learning. It’s a little bit of a learning curve. You know, it’s new knowledge, it’s new tools, and so I’m happy to report that I’ve learned that you can’t just work on one. It’s working on two can help get that ball rolling so that you feel like this really does impact me in a positive way. Mhmm.
Patti Herr: How long does it agree?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You you kinda wish it would have been too.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But I can tell that I’ve done it not to the full capacity, but, like, I’ve done it with other people in my life. Not not probably as in-depth or whatever, but I have done it with other relationships.
Victoria Volk: That’s good to hear. How do you think it’s going through this program and as your kids are getting a little bit older now and maybe asking different questions, you know, how has the going through the program and what you learned influenced your parenting maybe, and even you yourself, like, and how you parent.
Patti Herr: So I remember specifically part of the class who made this timeline and you’re, like, your dog dying, your fish dying. Like, that can impact every little thing in your life. And so I tried we tried to explain things like eastern kind of a few years ago, went through a thing with a death. And so I got a few little kid books or whatever to be able to read to him. And now I can read those to Norrie and Will and I I think explaining things and making it so that they know, like, I feel like it was kinda taboo. Like, you go to a funeral, like, people die. That’s what goes on in life. Well, you still need to process it. Like, a dog dying, you still need to process it. We had a dog die a year and a half ago. Like, we needed to process it as a family because it was kind of traumatic. So I feel like that’s helped me try to explain things to my kids too.
Victoria Volk: Do you have any tips on how you did that with your children?
Patti Herr: Let them ask the questions and no don’t let them feel like questions are bad or any question is bad. Just, like, let them ask the questions and give them the answers that they need and don’t fuel the fire, but don’t make it taboo. Don’t make it like, you shouldn’t talk about it. Hush hush.
Victoria Volk: Right. Be honest. Help your children be emotionally honest. You know? Yeah.
They’re angry. Let them be angry about their dog dying. You know, that’s okay. You know,
Patti Herr: My oldest is very an an empath and he feels a lot. So I have to do all the emotions with him.
Victoria Volk: That’s good. I mean, and there has to be space for that especially as a child who takes kind of in everything around them. It can be very over the world can be very overwhelming. Even the news, you know, it’s like you’re watching the news and you talking to your friend and your friend maybe went through something and then your dog dies, you know, like all these sad heavy things can really be devastating to a child who is highly sensitive. And so thank you for bringing that up, that not a lot of parents really consider that their child isn’t a cry baby. Mhmm. You know, because a lot of parents might say, quit being a cry baby. Mhmm. It’s you they’re just sensitive, more sensitive.
Patti Herr: You had a half meet, they had a father, passed away a few years ago, and Well, I guess it’s been a year a year and a half. And he he said, that’s so sad. And, you know, I said, well, you just need to be a good friend. You need to be there for him. And So I think that I mean, he asked a lot of questions about that too.
So he feels a lot.
Victoria Volk: Any resources that you have found, that you have utilized yourself other than grief recovery or anything else that you’d like to share?
Patti Herr: I really haven’t. I don’t use money. If I do, I would go to, like, Pinterest and sometimes there’s worksheets or something, but
Victoria Volk: for the kids.
Patti Herr: Oh, well and so I I had put it out there because Easton was very interested on on death and everything. And so I put out there, like, on Facebook, what people did. And they I can’t I have the book in one of their bookshelves, but there is a book about death. It has it’s like dinosaurs and stuff and kind of explains things. And I think I asked my pastor to ask actually, I did. I and I said, well, can you talk to him about it? Like, is there like, can he ask you questions and but I got this book, and then he did some research and gave me some other book titles, and I don’t have those at the moment. But on me but yeah. So I did go to my pastor and ask him and We have driven around cemeteries before and talked about things too. So
Victoria Volk: And even art — Yeah. — allowed children to express themselves through art. Yeah. Play Play Doh crayons, colors, watercolors in that way too.
Patti Herr: We got memorial flowers for the dog.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Easton and his dad saw them in the store, so they got her memorial flowers. So
Victoria Volk: that’s good.
Patti Herr: He still talked about her. He talks about the cat that passed away four years ago. So he remembers a lot.
Victoria Volk: And how old is he now?
Patti Herr: He’s seven.
Victoria Volk: Old enough to understand.
Patti Herr: Yes.
Patti Herr: He’ll he’ll say, I miss this person. I miss this person. I wish I could have met this person like he knows.
Victoria Volk: And so many adults will underestimate what children truly understand. You know, I was eight when my dad passed away and people just didn’t think I understood. You know? It’s like, okay. Well, you see your dad. Yeah. You see your dad, in a coffin, and then, you know, he’s put in the ground, and then you don’t see him anymore. It’s like okay. Well, I understand they’re not in my life anymore, and that’s really sad. You know?
It’s like, don’t tell me I don’t understand. You know?
Patti Herr: Your mind’s understanding at five six seven, you definitely were understanding at eight.
Victoria Volk: By three years old —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — About 75% of how to respond to life.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Well, in that three, that’s when he was asking about death. So
Victoria Volk: Yes. Exactly.
Patti Herr: Very important.
Victoria Volk: And I’m glad this came up too because it’s been something that I’ve I’ve said before, I think, on a different podcast episode, but I need to put resources for books, for children, and stuff on my website.
Patti Herr: And you need to have a class for children too.
Victoria Volk: I can’t actually work with children. That is that’s creating a thing. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And you have to take another class. Right?
Victoria Volk: Well, I can work with the adults of the children. So there’s the program helping children with loss but it’s for the adults to help the adults work with their own children.
Patti Herr: Okay
Victoria Volk: And that’s through the book, actually, this might be a good resource for you when children grieve — Mhmm. — is the other companion book to the grief recovery method is when children grieve. And are helping children’s loss program is based on that book. So that would be a resource for anyone listening. But there is actually a program that I had a guest on my podcast, and she started an organization called shielding hearts. And I’m going to look, I have just I’ve told her and I plan to look into her program because this program, you actually work with the kids, but it’s not it’s kind of along the lines of art and things. That you bring it into schools, the school system. So I’m gonna yeah. I’m gonna look into doing that. So it’s I’m not a licensed social worker, so that’s where some yeah. Get get the poo poo on that. We’re having kids, but It is a passion of mine, for sure, because I’ve I’ve been there, so I understand that children just don’t necessarily have that person in their life where they can feel like they can open up and share. Because oftentimes what happens too is let’s say dad or someone close to you is dying or sick and if or passes away and your your child is asking, what about grandpa? And then you don’t want to talk about it because it makes you sad. So then your child doesn’t talk about it because they don’t wanna make you sad. So then what happens is nobody’s talking about it.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And it’s this thing that you just don’t talk about. You don’t you don’t talk about grandpa, you don’t talk about grammar, whoever it is that passes away.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So what are you looking forward to in the next three years?
Patti Herr: Surviving, if we could.
Victoria Volk: Giving them all in school. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. One won’t be, but the other ones will be. Yeah. But just building our life and working still working on our relationships, like even me and my husband, we I mean, we’re constantly learning single day. Like, I don’t think you ever I feel like you learn about your your spouse and everything, but I feel like you just you’re learning together every single day because you’ve some things you’ve never dealt with or, you know, your kids are getting older, so then situations change and you just learn I mean, we’re learning constantly together how to handle things and how to deal with things. And I just see us having so much fun as a family. And also, I know in the next three or ten years, probably we’re gonna be seeing some losses in our family and that we’re gonna have to deal with, and that’s something that I’m dreading. But it’s just the reality, I guess, and it’s not gonna be fun for any of my family.
Victoria Volk: But, yeah, tools.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yep.
Victoria Volk: And I gotta say too, like, just is there anything that you would like to discuss about being in the trenches of motherhood and, you know, because you can kind of feel like because you weren’t anticipating. Right? You weren’t anticipating them at all. Right? And so, like, now being kind of in the I’ll say in the trenches of it. You know, I was we’re just talking about this and friends and I just the other day. I and I said, yep. You know, people always told me that the days are long, but the years are short, and then it’s so true. It is so true. You know, and when you’re in the trenches of it, it’s like, it’s really easy to lose yourself.
So how are you doing as far as that goes if you’re open to sharing?
Patti Herr: I go through my little tips where I’m like, I can’t keep this house clean and I get my little crying moments where I’m like, I’m a bad mom and blah blah, but the last couple of days, I realized, like, the house can be messy. It will get clean be cleaned someday, and we’ve been outside all day because it’s been so beautiful. And that to me is the best medicine and that’s what’s what makes my kids happy, what makes all of us happy, and dad is busy working in the field, and so we miss him terribly, but we just we play and we have fun. And when we can be with him. We do, and we have fun with him too. And life’s just crazy, and I would say when it slows down, but it never has yet. It’s just crazy busy and I just let them enjoy life and we play and play and play and eat and eat and eat and clean and clean and clean and clean and I just think you have to just have a little bit of faith and hope and everyone tells you, like, just relax. You’ll have kids, you know, when you’re going through in fertility, and that’s not always the case. Sometimes, you just have to take life into your own hands and believe in science and god put science on this world for a reason. And I think that IVF was a beautiful thing for us and our baby was a beautiful thing for us, and the first one was also beautiful because we didn’t think we were ever gonna get that chance. So I just think life is beautiful and it’s short and you just need to really enjoy it and it’s too short to be miserable. Obviously, you go through those moments where you’re not miserable, but you’re just sad. And I feel like you have to be sad to you. It’s a balance. You can’t always be happy happy happy, I guess.
Victoria Volk: Well, and that can be exhausting too to put on that front of all — Yeah. — like, you know, it’s I’m fine. Yeah. And there it that takes effort and energy. It’s a waste of effort and energy instead of — Yeah. — it takes less energy to be emotionally honest, like, No. I’m not good today. I kinda need a mental break.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Some well, my kids need mental breaks sometimes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Right? And from each other,
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s the hard balance too. It’s like that was the hardest part I think for me too. It’s like trying to find that individual time.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s like that firstborn gets so much attention. And then the second one comes along and it gets a little harder. But that third, it’s really tough.
Victoria Volk: Throws a wrench into things.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s really tough to, like, to feel like you’re giving each child what they need. You know? So that you can feel like you’re failing in a lot of ways. But
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: you know, you do the best you can and
Patti Herr: and lean on each other. Like, you have friends, you have other moms, or dads, or whatever, like, lean on people, you know? Because they’re going through the same thing. They just maybe don’t show it as much or you don’t think they do or, you know, you might think you’re alone.
Victoria Volk: I just heard of a cup there’s a couple of working moms and they exchange, like, their day’s off, like, they’re watching on each other’s, like, that’s how they do it. They they’re killed. They’re both newborns or new oh, they’re new parents, and they’re that that’s what they do. So they just you know, they’re raising each other’s kids. They’re doing it together, and I think that’s a beautiful thing that you can find in friendship. You know, if you have that support. And if you don’t, find it. Create. Ask. You know, how many people are so afraid to ask hey, I have this idea. What do you think? You know, if we just you know, here’s one tip that I’ll share with you. And it is something that we still talk about to this day, our kids talk about it to this day is so I don’t live on a farm. I never have. But a friend of ours did and or does. And we would have what’s called farm days.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So everybody brought their kids to the farm and like the rest of us had, well, two of us were lived on farm two of us lived on farms and two of us were city gals. Right? But, anyway, everybody brought their kids the water, water games, whatever they did, and we just got together, like us women, moms, got to talk and catch up. The kids got to have fun doing whatever they were doing. It was the best. It was the best. And, you know, we did this in the summer sometimes. And Those are the best memories. And oftentimes, they weren’t even planned.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.Victoria Volk: Hey, let’s just have a farm day today. And it doesn’t always work, of course, you know, because things and the phases of life. Right? You go with the phases of life. Now, most of like, there’s yeah. Two of us now. Two of the four have about three of the four have day jobs outside, you know, like, we have places we need to be and things we need to do, so it doesn’t always happen. But That’s my tip. Create a farm day. Ask the girlfriends, you know, especially the other friends that live on farms. Just get together, bring the kids, make it a
Patti Herr: We have a crazy idea. Sometimes, we go to the zoo with all of our kids and we’re like, why did we do this? But then in the end, it’s really fun for them. Yeah. They might cry on the way home because they’re so tired. But
Victoria Volk: But that’s what I’m saying. You don’t even need to drive anywhere. Yeah. To, like, take them out anywhere. You need to, like, mess with the strollers and the diaper bags and just come together —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — one spot and just let them explore and find bugs.
Patti Herr: We do try to get together with friends, but it’s I mean, everyone’s so busy. It’s kinda we just need to and that’s my thing too is, like, you just gotta make the time.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Just ask. Yeah. And I you know, a friend of mine too. She was like, you know she’ll ask me and I’ll say, ah, I just I can’t today, but And I told her just recently too, I’m like, you know what? This was a good idea. We went kayaking. She’s like, I was like, this is a good idea. She’s like, I guess I just I said, just never stop asking.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t planned. It was, like, she was she wanted to go. So she’s, like, hey. I’m I wanna go, Kaye, do you wanna go? Yeah. I’ll go. You know? It’s Mhmm. So I think a lot of the times it’s the spontaneous things that is where the best memories are made. So that’s my suggestion to any mom just get together with the girlfriends. It’s important. It matters. It makes a difference. And
Patti Herr: You need to make time for yourself too.
Victoria Volk: That’s true too. That’s true.
Patti Herr: Get a babysitter. Don’t I know it’s expensive and I know, like, oh my gosh. I have to have it babysitter watch my kids, but get the babysitter because you need to have your own time, you need to have date nights. Like, we don’t definitely do don’t do an update switch we will someday when the kids are older. Right now, we just we’re focusing on our children, but get the babysitter.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And speaking of which, people might be listening to, like, your house is really quiet for three kids. Do you have a babysitter?
Patti Herr: This summer, I got my littles into daycare for two and a half days a week. So they’re in daycare today. And at my older one, I made him out of the house for a little while. He might come in here in a little bit. I told him a half hour, so that’s about coming up rather than that back.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so that’s good. I mean, that you’re taking your own advice. Right? I mean, it’s just one day a week. You know
Patti Herr: I do work at McTwist, the Dairy Queen in town one day a week. So I I get an adult interaction.
Victoria Volk: And that’s important. And that is kind of you time. That is mental health time.
Patti Herr: It is. Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. It’s only for, like, six hours, but I love it.
Victoria Volk: It’s something to look forward to to get out of the house. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Just Yeah. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And the fact here, like, I need to do this and I need to do that.
Speaker 0: And leave the house without a diaper bag.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. Or I mean, could I forget a kid? Or
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, I’m so glad things have really just the sun has just been shining on your life and it’s I’m so happy to have been able to catch up with you today. And thank you for sharing what’s been up with you. Yeah. And you know, I do offer alumni groups.
Patti Herr: And she made it to somebody.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, and I could do it online now too. I don’t have to pack a diaper bag. So yeah. So I’ll have to maybe get something like that lined up in the future. Yeah. Is there anything you prefer? Yes. there aren’t. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Patti Herr: I don’t think so. Just live life to the fullest because it’s so short. You never know. You never know.
Victoria Volk: You never know. That’s for sure. Especially, as you just described, you know, that accident that happened. Right? You just you don’t know. You can leave your house one day and not walk in the door later.
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: So
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: All I was gonna ask you too. Do you ever go out to the farm where your husband’s work and have a picnic with the kids?
Patti Herr: We go out there because we have a horse named Marlin, and the kids wanna go see the horse all the time. So we go see Marlin quite often.
Victoria Volk: Okay? But where your husband is farming, though. Yeah.
Patti Herr: Oh, yeah. We well, we take him food, and I actually have to take him chemically. He called me right before this and said, can you bring me some chemical? Oh, so I’m also farmland. Like, I yeah. And we want to move to the farm someday. So we’ll be out there probably in a few years, I would say.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you’re not on the farm?
Patti Herr: Nope. We’re in town. We live in his grandma’s house. We bought his grandma’s house.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my mistake.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But we will move to the farm his parents live out there, but they’re kinda transitioning. So
Victoria Volk: Well, farm days are in your future, I bet.
Patti Herr: Yeah. So women can come find out for farm days because I plan to have all the things. My husband’s like, oh, we’re gonna have funny farm and I’m like, you better believe it. I’m going to that exotic animal sale and we’re gonna have fainting goats and
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Peacock
Victoria Volk: That’s really fun. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Patti, and it’s been so fun catching up with you. And I wish you a wonderful rest of 2023. It’s halfway.
We’re halfway through. That’s crazy.
Patti Herr: Time goes too fast?
Victoria Volk: Sure does. Well, many blessings to you and your family.
Patti Herr: You too. Thanks.
Victoria Volk: Thanks. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, LGBTQ+, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Where Are They Now? |
Jordan Brodie: Where Are They Now? | Redefining Success & Grief with Best Friend and Brother Loss
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This “Where Are They Now?” episode with Jordan is a follow-up to the first conversation we recorded on 01/19/2021. Jordan’s first episode went live as episode 44 on 4/27/2021. You may want to check out that episode first, then come back to this follow-up episode.
In this follow-up episode, Jordan shares about the devastating loss of his older brother to a fentanyl overdose only a week after we recorded his first episode. In the time since, Jordan has been able to maintain his sobriety. However, in this episode, he goes into more depth on the impact the loss of his best friend, followed by the loss of his brother, had on him – and his sobriety.
Sobriety aside, Jordan also shares how his spiritual beliefs have been shaped by the loss of his best friend, Chase, and his older brother, Josh. And what he looks forward to in the future. Jordan is currently traveling Europe after living in Los Angeles for 11 years. He shares how leaving the glitz, glam, and city life has offered him the opportunity and experience of a lifetime. And maybe, for the first time, the time and space to discover how he wishes to define what success means to him moving forward.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today is a Where Are They Now episode. And it is a follow-up with a guest who I originally spoke to on January 19th, 2021, Jordan Brodie. And his episode went live on April 27th, 2021. It is episode 44. And it is titled Growing Up Gay, CODA, and with Addiction. And so if you haven’t listened to that episode you might wanna check that one out first and then come back to this one but I am so excited to catch up with Brodie. There has been a lot going on in his life since then. And also, actually, the week after we spoke, his brother had died of an overdose. And so that is where we will start today. But first of all, Jordan, thank you so much for being here. And you’re all the way over in France. So thank you so much for joining me from France. And I love the idea of following up with people after a couple years and because if I’m wondering how you’ve been, what’s what you’ve been up to, what’s changed in your life, I’m sure other people are too, And so thank you so much for taking the time to catch us all up.
Jordan Brodie: That’s so nice. You’re welcome. Thank you. Victoria, and so grateful to be back here today. So much has happened since Chase Guy. And even after that podcast, we recorded eight days after my older brother died. And, God, I think speaking with you, and, like, having been prepared from losing my best friend. It really helps me, I think, because Joshua’s death, my older brother was even more difficult for me emotionally. And Chase is definitely very difficult. I think, kind of, like, having this platform to tell my story I think it really helped my grieving process. And I just wanna thank you because it really did help me to talk about it right away. It really did. I don’t I think I really think I breathed well, and I’m still grieving. Chase and Josh and another’s losses in my life. Like, it’s a continuous thing, I think society prepares us to get things. Like, we’re in a consumer capitalistic society where we’re, you know, get get get we want this, we want that, we want new things, we want a new dog, a new puppy, a new bike, a new car, a new house, a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend. We always want new things. We gotta get that new iPhone every year. Our society doesn’t teach people how to lose things in a proper and healthy way. And you know, when some when you lose something, a lot of times people are like, oh, well, don’t worry. You can get another one. And that really invalidates the emotions. I’ve learned it’s not good to say that to people don’t say, oh, well, you can get a new cat, you can get a new dog. It invalidates the emotions. And also, I don’t like even people offer me, like, tissues or phoenix when I’m crying. Like, I don’t like being blocked. I want to just let it flow because I think it’s healthy. We have such a shame around crying and and losing things. But it’s a part of life. It’s inevitable getting on here here with you. It was about two years ago really helped me, like, with my grieving process because if I keep things bottled in, I go crazy. I really do, and I need to talk about what’s going on with me. And everyone does, not just on a podcast. We don’t just need to be on a podcast to talk to people who can talk to our friends, our family, our therapists, but I think it’s important to talk to someone and He really helped me, so thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing that because I really had no idea. I mean, I know we had kinda just talked over social media a little bit after I had heard that your brother had passed, but I had no idea. Those are the very things that we talk about in the program Do Grief Differently. Like, you know, when I try and educate people, like, don’t hand a tissue, you know, that stops someone from crying and so just the fact that you’ve re you remembered those things and that you found them helpful and you’re probably actually helping other people too and educate dating other people along the way in the past two years just based on what you’ve learned in our first conversation.
Jordan Brodie: Yeah, I really hope so. I really hope to be just a light inspiration by being vulnerable on social media, on the Internet, on YouTube, in public with people just being open and honest and authentic. I really hope it helps others, and I know it helps others. I’ve had people say, they look up to me. I do know I have people that looked up to me and I’m really grateful for that. It used to make me feel uncomfortable, but I’ve worked through my impostor syndrome and I think everyone, not just me, everyone can help anyone with their story. We all have a story to tell. You, Victoria, have a story to tell. All the listeners on here have a story to tell, and it’s important and it’s valid. And it doesn’t matter if you’re just a grocery store clerk or you’re just a farm Boy or you just you’re just a high schooler with no extracurricular activities or you are the football player or whatever you are, you have a story. Everyone has a story. It doesn’t matter who it is. You don’t have to be a royalty, a rich person, born into a rich family, a celebrity. It’s not just the celebrities that have stories to tell. It’s the little Joe’s and Bob’s and Dina’s and Susie’s in the middle of America, in the middle of Europe and then in middle of France. Everyone has a story and I love your podcast because you do interview everyone. It’s not just celebrities, it’s not just these people, it’s normal average job people dealing with free and everyone deals with Green in their life and it’s something we need to talk about. I don’t think any topic should be taboo. In this world because we’re all human. We all go through the same feelings and emotions and desires maybe different ways. But why should any topic be taboo or shameful when everyone is experiencing that?
Victoria Volk: In church recently, the priest had shared, we should not hide our wounds. When we hide our wounds and we don’t talk about our wounds, they kill us.
Jordan Brodie: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And that speaks to what you’ve just been sharing.
Jordan Brodie: It’s very, very true. So since Josh and Chase died, by the way, Joshua’s death very difficult, and he actually died from the same death as Chase, a similar death. It was a fentanyl overdose. I don’t know the exact details about Chase, and I don’t even really know the exact details about Josh, but I know that he had COVID and had been isolated for two weeks, and then relapsed and it was an overdose on fentanyl. I did similar thing with Chase with Chase. I was like, how can I give service to his mother, like and being of service throughout Chase’s death process, like, after he died and asking his mother, like, how can I help? Like, I love Chase so much. Like, how can I help? She asked for help putting together his because it was during COVID, his Zoom memorial service for friends and family because COVID, we could she couldn’t have a big open funeral. It was only close family members, no friends. So I did that. I put together, I found a pastor, to run the services. And I got the made invitations. I invited a bunch of people. Like, It is really hard to do, but it helps me stay focused and help me stay safe. I had some friends donate money to pay the pastor because he was on Zoom and he was a friend from the Unitarian University of Church. We did this service. It was a beautiful service. I think I sing and my other friend saying and read a poem and it was very beautiful. Chase would have loved it because Chase was an artist, he was an actor, he was a performer, I still think about him. He’s still a superhero to me. He was obsessed with SpiderMan. When the new SpiderMan movie, came out. It was on I think it was on Joshua’s birthday. Josh’s birthday was February 18th, and he died from January 27th. It was somewhere around his birthday that the new SpiderMan movie came out and Chase was obsessed with SpiderMan. Chase where he had all these furnishings with him. It was kinda silly. It was like an adult child that became this part of that. But I would just the message of that SpiderMan movie. I don’t know if you saw it. Let’s just see the new SpiderMan. It was I don’t wanna ruin too much of the story for but for those who saw it that are listening, there was a message of forgiveness to those who have done you wrong. Because it’s a long story, but I don’t wanna ruin the plot, but there was a character in the movie who hurt SpiderMan. And SpiderMan had a choice to be to he had a choice to make. And he would have done something wrong if he wouldn’t have chosen to forgive And the thing about Chase and Josh is they go back from a fentanyl addiction, which drug dealers are lacing drugs of fentanyl. So I was angry. Like, at drug dealers, when Chase moved to LA, he was a very handsome he was very handsome and fellow people all the actor agents said he looked like the next action cooker. Sorry, handsome. And everyone just so many old guys came around promising him fame and fortune and I’ll be your agent. A lot of them just fed him drugs and got him high and took advantage of him. Like, it’s true. And it happens to so many people that move to LA. So many people I’ve seen it happen. I’ve been I was in LA for eleven years, and I saw so many people get chewed up and spit out And I’m so sad that she’s happened to be one of them. I luckily kind of avoided that. I avoided the drug part because I already got it up that out of my system in high school, but Chase fell into that. All these old gross men I was always so I was so protective of Chase. I mean, I knew him since I was eight years old. And I had a big crush on him. I didn’t realize that he was kind of my high school crush, but he only liked older thighs and I wasn’t necessarily as type. And I think we were both kind of afraid of each other in that way. I’m afraid of intimacy and being hurt and I was afraid to be honest with him about how a truly felt for him, and that was one of my biggest regrets. When she died. I was always so angry with Chase. I was like, Chase, why are you hanging out with this guy? You just want to fuck you. You just want systems like, oh, yeah. That he helps me with my scripts when I have auditioned. And I was like, I can help you with this script. Someone else can, but this guy is not confused. There were so many of these to be fair, like, one of these guys that I’m talking talking about, I don’t wanna say his name. He like, two years ago. He’s a really fit a popular agent in LA. And he literally got me tuned and canceled, and that he actually died from cancer, like, a few months ago, this guy in particular. And I was always like, Chase, why are you hanging out with this guy? Like, he’s not promising you anything. He’s just using you. He’s getting you high. He’s leading you on. And, you know, this is good. To share because I heard of the superficiality of LA. I’m tired of seeing it. It was so heartbreaking to me. And all these influencers, all these people are coming every day, every year, and falling from this trap. And so many people get caught into drug addiction. Think about the amount of famous people you know with drug problems that, like, goes spiraling down. For every famous person, there’s probably like ten thousand not famous people who never make it, who die from an overdose in LA because they get stuck in that whole trap. It’s really dark. And messed up. And I think people should know, like, when they move to LA to have boundaries and not lose their backbone, like, keep your morals and your standards or you will get lost. Like, I got lost. Thank god. I got back on track. Chase actually helped me get back on track. He was my eskymo of I went to anonymous twelve step programs at first to support Chase. And then I stuck with it. And now, yeah, I have six years sober. I’ll have seven years on January thirteenth. So help me God. But
Victoria Volk: Congratulations.
Jordan Brodie: Thank you. It’s just really heartbreaking and I’m tired of seeing people just fall into this superficial chase of fame and fortune. I have different dreams now. I still want I still desire to be famous for my music and well-known or successful and be paid from my art and my music. Fame represents success for me as an artist. But I don’t it’s not if I’m making a living as an artist or even if I am still making art, but I have all my needs met, like I have a home, a place to live, food to eat, As long as I’m doing music recording, I don’t care if a thousand people are listening or not. I just want to have a place to sleep some food to eat and be doing music. And I realize I don’t like big cities. I feel anxious in big cities. So I’m actually traveling Europe right now. I’ve been in Europe almost for two and a half months doing work away. I’m traveling right now around the world. I’m gonna probably be doing this for, like, a year or two. Until I figure out where I wanna live. Getting European citizenship to my grandmother. She’s born in Estonia. It’s not guaranteed, but we’re starting the process to apply for my citizenship. And, yeah, I love Europe. I’m loving it. And I feel like Chase and Josh are with me and but, yeah, for everyone that’s planning on moving to LA or New York, any big city. It doesn’t matter. Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, London. All these major cities have huge drug problems. So it’s really important to stick with your morals and ethics and your backbones. Like, wherever you’re going, think about find a role model from your childhood, like, maybe it’s a grandpa, like, or someone that you really admire that has good qualities of integrity and service and love. They don’t have to be perfect. My grandpa and some of my role models are not perfect. They have mistakes. They’ve had flaws. But I admire their good qualities, and I aspire to be like them finding role models in my recovery has been what’s helped me. And I think going back to the SpiderMan thing, that’s what Chase’s well one of his role models was SpiderMan because he was he’s such a positive hero. Like, I think he’s such a great world model. And when I watched that movie, God, I’d boggled so hard in the theater. But Like I said, the moral of that story was forgiveness to those who have done you wrong and hurt you. If you watch it, you will know what I mean. You will see this message. It’s pretty clear. And it’s exactly like, I was so mad about Chase, like, I blamed basically any old gay guy. This sounds really brief is a seductive kind of messed up it can put some messed up voices in your head, like my ego. And any, like, older gay guy, I was just angry at. I was, like, everyone’s a predator. I hate all of you guys. Like, just so many people I was so mad at, and I was blaming all these people and it was really hard. I was so angry at everyone. I was just angry at the world, like, for just being not understanding of my friend and not respecting his humanity because he was a very handsome person and just so many people, like, threw themselves at him and try to take advantage of him and I was just, like, always there on this side, like, supporting him with my love, and I was, of course, hoping one day. Well, no. I appreciate him as a friend and I was content with their friendship, but I really was and love on him. Looking back at it, I was very much in love with him. Like, I was too disassociated for my own addictions. To know that it was, like, what I was for. Like, he was always when I went in high school, I had a big crush on him, I had a huge crush on him. He’s so charismatic. He’s so funny. He’s so handsome. And I had a big crush on him. And then I always did, and he knew it. Like, he liked older guys.
Victoria Volk: How do you honor his life today?
Jordan Brodie: As I’m traveling, going to things like that SpiderMan movie is very helpful. I got to see Demi Lovato perform at Avida, like, the week before I left for Europe. And Chase was the biggest Demi Lovato fan. Like, I wasn’t that I love Demi, but, like, I’m not, like, I’m not obsessed. Like, she’s not my diva. I love her. I love her music. I’m obsessed. That like, I do love her. Okay? But Chase was obsessed. Like, the biggest demi lovato fan. So I felt like he was there with me and, like, he was so happy and like, I just felt him there. And then I just feel his energy a lot, and I talked sometimes I’ll reach out to his mother, see how she’s doing. We talked on social media a lot, and she’s just really supportive of me. And I know she still misses him a lot. And Chase was very, like, he was, like, very risk-taking, very adventurous. It’s on my list of things to do to go skydiving with some of his friends, like, in Chase’s memory because Chase was such a risk-taker. So I wanna get some of his friends and I wanna go skydiving because I am so scared of how it’s and like, Yolo and his memory. Like, I wanna jump for him and, like and then I and then I worked my program my recovery programs and my sobriety honors him. Like, I feel like when he died, I don’t know if I talked about this in the podcast, but I I didn’t handle it the best when it came to my recovery in some of my behaviors because I still, like, I acted out like, sexually, like, to, like, cope with the emotions I was experiencing. And like, because I’m an addict, but I’m not just, like, a drug addict, an alcoholic. Like, I also struggle with sex addiction, and love addiction and emotional anorexia. When Chase died, I just I kinda I relapsed. I really did. I don’t I didn’t talk about this. When we did the interview, but I did relapse, like, when he died. And it took me, like, a week or two, like, get back on track, and that was really hard. Like but when Josh died, I think since that had already happened, I didn’t relapse when Josh died. I was ready. I was prepared. And so that was really hard. And my sex and love addiction is still very difficult. I do still get really lonely. And I have a lot of pain, like, anxiety, emotional pain, and I think it’s good not to latch onto someone when you’re grieving or you’re sad, but it wasn’t ready for that. Like, no one prepares you to lose your best friend or, like, to lose your older brother, like, I had never experienced any significant loss like that in my life. It was the first. So I was not ready for that at all. At all. Like, I wasn’t that close with my grandpa. When he died, I was, like, it wasn’t that big of a deal for me. I mean, he’s a grandpa. He’s older. You know? It’s part of life. And he was kinda angry towards the end of his life. So I was kind of relieved for him because he had cancer and he was in a lot of pain. It wasn’t very nice to me. My little brother’s, and I didn’t, like, carry through to my little brother’s. So when he passed, I was a little bit relieved for his pain because I knew he was in a better place. He was in so much pain. Presented his life. And I don’t know. But Chase, like, I thought he was doing good. Like, he had just gotten six months sober. And Yeah. I still really miss him a lot. And honestly, like, I was really delusional about their dads like, I don’t know, like, last January. I was this January, I was, like, oh my gosh. It’s almost been a year. I was texting my stepmom. I was like, it’s almost been a year since Josh died. And she was like, Jordan, it’s been two years. Like, that’s how, like, disassociated I’ve been when it comes to my brother and she it’s, like, I was still in denial about his death for a really long time. Like and I’m still a little bit in denial. About it. Like, I really am. Like, I delusionally, I’m a fantasy addict, so I live in fantasy. I live in my head a lot. And I escape into these fantasies of being all these different characters. It’s something that I do. It’s kinda crazy, but it’s normal for artists. Like, I guess, a lot of us do this, you know. Like, Nicki Minaj has her personal. Awesome. I have mine. I’m just not as vocal about it. It’s all in my head, but I escape into fantasies of them still being here. Like a lot of the times, which I don’t think is very healthy. No one prepared me for this. Like, having this platform being able to talk to you also, my recovery community, I do gratitude list every morning. Doing that gratitude every morning when Josh was when after Josh died and after Chase died, really helped me keep, like, a glimmer of light and hope as that dark period went. And I don’t wanna say, but my sponsor in one of my recovery programs was, like, one of the first people I called when I found out Josh Knight. And he was the first person I called. And he, like, helps me, like and so many people helped me. And, you know, it’s really important to know that shit’s gonna happen in life. People are gonna die. And there’s gonna be people there for you. Like, no matter what, like, and it’s important to let them help you. My best friends all kind of, like, kidnapped me too, like, when they found out Chase and Josh die. They kind of just, like, kidnapped me and, like, took me. Like, and, like, I stayed with them in Orange County. For a few days. Unless all my friends came around me, I’m so lucky. I have really good friends. And Yeah. But it’s really hard. Gosh. I was not expecting to cry like this. I guess because, like, doing work away, so I’m how I’m doing Europe is I am doing work away, so it’s an exchange. I’m here at this house that’s on a farm in Normandy, France. And ex and the guy who owns it’s a single gay guy. And in exchange for a house, to stay and food to eat. I help him twenty hours a week with whatever he wants. Like, I help to make a costume, like a gay he has some of that this weekend, so I may help them make a gay alien custom. And I helped him. We’ve I’ve they have been weeding. I help cook. I help with this animals, like, clean up donkey poo. Each job is different. I was in Switzerland before this for three weeks, and that was I was, like, an assistant to the housewife. I was, like, picking up the kids from school tutoring, and the first one was similar to this. So but these last three days, it’s really scary. Out of my element, these last three days have been hard for my sex and love and mix gen, I guess. Like so I think that might be why I’m crying a little bit because I just didn’t reminded how difficult it was, and I really I relapsed when Chase died. And I know it’s pretty common. A lot of people relapse in recovery programs when a loved one dies. Or they break this is why it suggested not to get in a relationship the first year of recovery. It’s not a requirement. It’s a suggestion because it cannot get iteration or end up get out because significant changes in our emotions. We use drugs in alcohol effects, our addictive patterns to numb our pain and our sadness. So if we shift things and we experience big changes, the chances as of us relapsing before we have the right tools are higher. So Yeah.
Victoria Volk: May I ask
Jordan Brodie: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: May I ask if so how long have you been doing work away? When did you leave the US?
Jordan Brodie: Oh, the end of March. So March, like, 29th, and I started my first position, like, April second.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel as though I mean, because It’s one thing to, like, leave your home country for a couple weeks and knowing you’re coming back and knowing when you’re coming back. But in doing work away and having the intention that you’re gonna do it at least a year, maybe even two years, and being away from you know, it’s one thing to, you know, we have the devices. We can stay connected in that way. But to not physically be in proximity to those we love and our family and our friends and things like that. I’m just asking, do you feel like potentially a part of this resurfacing for you is just the fact that you are away from your home. You are you’re I mean, this is a huge change. If you think about it, I mean, this is a huge change. You’re you’re plopping yourself in
Jordan Brodie: That’s a good question. That’s a good question. And I think that might be some of it. But the thing is I don’t feel like I actually miss anyone. It’s kinda weird. Like, I miss people. I would love to see my friends, my family, like, if they showed up or if I went and visited them, I would be elated. I’d be so happy and excited to see them. But I don’t feel like a yearning for them. I might go, it’d be nice to see them. I feel like I don’t I’m just having so much fun. Like, it’s so exciting for me. I’ve never been to Europe. So I’m so excited. I’m so inspired. And also, I’ve been in LA for eleven years, and my mother lives in Montana. All my loved ones live in New Mexico and Montana. And then I have friend all over the country and the world that I grew up with, so I’m always missing someone. Like, at what I have a really big family and they live all over. Like, I’m always missing someone. I’m used to this feeling because I’m kinda spread out a little bit thin. It’s, like, the perks of having a lot of people you love in your life. Like, I have a big family a lot of friends. I have a big community around me of people in real life. It’s not just social media, like most of my friends and family and loved ones have a large majority of people that don’t even use social media. So, like, I just always missing someone. So I’m used to this. So the truth is, yes, I do think that’s part of it, but I thoroughly enjoyed the host here, and I’m here with two other workawaiters. And I go out on walks a lot I pray a lot and meditate. I do outreach calls all day long with fellows and thank god for technology. Like, you’re out North Dakota. I’m here in France and we’re able to talk. I’ve been able to call my friends in LA. New York, in New Mexico, like, I’ve been able to call people still and FaceTime them. It’s not the same as personal connection, but I get that from them. I guess I’m a little bit lonely and the fact is, like, I think also Chase served he wasn’t my brother. He wasn’t family. Josh was my family. It’s different. I didn’t have, like, romantic feelings for Josh. It’s for my older brother, you know. I didn’t he was my brother, we were blood, and but chase, I kinda had some intimate romantic feelings, and I didn’t really fully understand that until he died. And it’s really sad. I think it’s really sad that I didn’t know. Because, like, I knew I liked him and I was kind of obsessed with him. I didn’t know they were those in feelings until he died and I felt those feelings. I think that’s why I relapsed. When Chase died and my sexual live addiction is because I didn’t know how to handle those feelings. That feeling of loss, that feeling of grief. I’ve had a few other, like, guys, like, people that I’ve had these really intense feelings for, like, since Chase died. And it’s weird because I feel like having him die kinda gave me permission to, like, move on. I guess, I’ve spread myself out too thin emotionally and sexually because of my past as a sex worker, because of my promiscuity, emotionally, I was a little bit of an emotional horror. Like, just my emotions are all spread out all over the world. So, like, having Chase died, like, kinda help me reel it in. My emotions I have better boundaries now. I don’t hoard or myself anymore, emotionally. I don’t I don’t I tried to I’m way more conservative than I thought I was, like, emotionally and sexually. Like and it’s new to me, but she’s gonna help me with that. And, yeah, I’ve been able to forgive those guys that I mentioned that I was mad at because of Chase’s death. I kinda blamed them certain characters in West Hollywood that I know was I really angry at? And they’re still doing the same shit. These old older men that work in the industry having these parties, inviting all these young new gays, giving them drugs, giving them alcohol, telling them they’ll do this, they’ll do the app, but they really just wanna get laid. It’s still happening. The same people are still doing the same shit. As eleven years ago when I moved away. This same shit. It’s not different. And I’m like, how do these people sleep that night. But I don’t think they’re fully aware of what they’re doing. It’s kinda like if they knew they knew and they would stop doing it. But it takes two sides. So so but I’ve been able to forgive them. Like, you know, I don’t and I’m leave I’ve left LA It’s a new experience for me. I do wonder am I escaping? Am I doing escapism by being out here? But I’m really enjoying Europe. I don’t plan to, like, move here and get a house here and, like, be here. But I plan to go back LA. But back to New York, back to New Mexico to my parents, back to Montana, I still plan to stay connected to America. I’m always gonna be an American Like, even if I get my Estonian citizenship and I so, like, I don’t know.But yeah. I think I am feeling a little bit lonely. But last night, I made a friend. I made friends with this local girl. She was really nice. And I’ll go to Paris in two weeks and see one of my friends, and there’s a big recovery convention that week. So I’ll see people that I’m only, like, three hour train ride from Paris right now. So it’s pretty cool.
Victoria Volk: Do you think a part of this too could be a little bit of being ready maybe to settle down? Maybe just wanting someone to share this experience with?
Jordan Brodie: Definitely. I was talking about this last night with someone. Okay. I so part of this too, I thought that it’s so funny because Miley Cyrus on Flowers came out on my sobriety birthday, which is January 13th, like, the album was released. And my it’s, you know, the the theme of the song itself, love, like, a renaissance flower was I can grab my name and the saying a quote directly from Chase. He always told me this. He’s like Jordan, God provides music always at the exact right time when they need it. Like, that was Chase’s little quote. That was one of his quotes that he always told me, and he always said if it’s not nice, don’t say it at all. And he would always tell me that because I was kind of more of a bitch than he was. It was always very, like, snarky and he and saying these things. And he was like, my mom always taught me. It’s that nice, don’t say it at all. So he kind of has this consciousness need to, like, be a nicer person. Anyway, So it to me, it was God. It was Chase. It was, like, music. Also, on the year so on so his death was December 27th, I think, or December 1st. December 1st. It was the day of the Equinox when the bright star, the north star, whatever was brightest. So in some ways, I’m like, chaste must have been like Jesus or something because he died on that day. What a great day to go out was the day that the whole world did that international meditation together. Everyone did it. He died that night. The North Star was the brightest. So I think it’s a beautiful night to pass. The energy was amazing. And okay. So a year later on the year of his passing a year prior. It was either the week before or the week after a few weeks. Tim Petris, one of my other favorite pop stars put out a song called Coconuts, which Coconuts, you know, it’s like it’s tropical themed in the middle of winter. So random. She’s the queen of, like, putting things out at random times. Chase and I, five years before he died, We were very silly together and played together. He wrote a song. We wrote a song together called Coconuts. Chase and I did. It was just a joking stupid song. We were obsessed with coconuts. We were like, anything coconut, coconut oil. It’s good for your skin. It tastes good. It’s good for cooking. It’s good as lube for seg. Like, you can do anything with coconuts. You can eat it. You can do anything with coconuts. So so the fact that that song came out like near during a year from his passing was God to me. I was like, Chase is on the other side manipulating shit. Kim Petress has put out a song called Coconuts. And that song is really stupid. It’s a dumb pop song about her boobs, basically, coconuts, Mac, coconuts, it’s, like, totally random, which is also chases humor too. So to me, it was God, like, that song is spiritual to me. It’s funny because everyone’s like, oh, this is a dumb pop song. But that song is spiritual for me. Like, whenever I hear that song, I it’s like, god speaking to me. And then similar things like on Josh’s birthday this year, pink put out her single to her next album, trustful, the song closed, your eyes, and leave it up behind, go with love. It’s on our side, and it’s stressful. And I remember, like, I was playing it on repeat. And that evening of I was going to someone’s birthday and I was in West Hollywood. I was in the Candle Delirium store and I was buying a candle for my friend. And at the register, the guy I will see him there. He owns the store or whatever, but he was, like, Are you okay how are you, by the way, are you okay? And I broke down crying in the store. Like, in front of I it wasn’t, like, I because I was, like, I’m and then it just kinda cracked. And I was, like, crying because I couldn’t hold it because I was just I was dealing with it was I was just listening to music and I was alone. And then I just told him, I was like, oh, on today’s my brother’s birthday, he died, like, two years ago, and I really miss him. And so, yeah, I’m kinda sad, but thank you. And then they, like, they, like, gave me a big hug and they gave me, like, a really big discount on the candle that I was buying. And, anyway, that it was, like, really sweet. So it’s always good to be honest. Like, we don’t wanna get vulnerable when we’re doing bad. But if you just say if someone asks you how you’re doing, you’re not feeling good, there’s nothing wrong with saying, I’m not feeling good. I’m not doing good today. How are you? It’s good to be honest about what we’re feeling. That’s been the biggest lesson with all this and Yeah. And the best way I can honor my brother and Chase is by continuing to work on myself become the best version of myself. I feel like they’re here with me. I pray to them all the time. I talk to them. I danced with them. I, like, I went to EDC last year, and
Victoria Volk: What does that stand for?
Jordan Brodie: Electric Daisy Carnival in Las Vegas. It’s the biggest wave in the United States. It’s a big music festival, like, all the big big DJs, like Calvin Harris, David Geta, like, than even NASA, like, Gorgon City, Zoo, Grimes. All these DJ’s, like, perform. There’s, like, hundreds of d j’s five hundred thousand people in Las Vegas at the speedway from all over the world to go and I’ve been wanting to go for a really long time and it was my first time going and I went with two of my best friends, and it was so much fun. And there was a moment. Okay. So my friend Phoenix and Sean both really love this artist. His name’s excision. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but He’s a electronic music producer. His music has a lot of heavy metal references in it. So it’s not Like me, I’m candy pot. Like, I love pot stuff. I’ve always been great name Adzana, Michael Jackson and Paris Hilton and Christina Aguilar. If it’s gay, shiny, and sparkly, I’m all over a girl, and I’m listening to it. Like, I don’t even like horror movies, dark I’m the sugar to my friend’s spice. Like, I’m the bright one that’s very gay and happy. I do have a dark side Don’t get me wrong. I have a dark, angry, evil, twisted, bitch side of me too. Sorry. I don’t know if I can cuss back.
Victoria Volk: It’s okay.
Jordan Brodie: But okay. So so here we are. And I Josh and I wrote music together. We had a business together, my older brother. We made his songs together. Josh produced classical music He played the guitar. He played the bass. He played the saxophone. He played the piano. He played he taught himself all these instruments. He never had, like, probably, like, a few lessons when he was younger in piano, but he was a musical genius. He produced hip hop music. Classical music, hot music in the end. He was so talented. And I kept trying to get Josh to move to LA. Like, to, like, for us to work together, but he couldn’t ever his addictions problems and stuff would always get in the way of are working together, and it really frustrated me. And I don’t know if he was an addict or not. It’s not fair for me to say that, but Some of his behaviors would get in the way of us working together. Music was our bonding thing, my older brother and I. And same with Chase. Chase and I whenever we were driving in the car, it was like it was like you’re in a concert. Chase and I were jamming out. We listen to music all day. Chase was always messaging me songs. A lot of my favorite songs. I have a whole playlist with Chase music, Demi Lovato, just chase loved music. And he really helps me grow my love of music as a consumer because Pace wasn’t making music. He was an actor. He wasn’t interested in writing. He was interested in being an actor, but he had a love and a passion for it as like a fan. So I was writing music. Chase loved my songs. He was one of the first people to buy, like, the physical copy of my first, like, single make it right. Like, he bought it online when he could stream it for free. And, like, he was just so proud of me and he loved my music. And so it meant a lot to me because I moved he moved to LA a year before I did from my hometown, and he let me stay with him for a few weeks, and he helped me get start up because he moved there to pursue his acting dreams. And I moved to LA to pursue my music dreams. So anyway, at EDC, it’s a music festival, so it’s all about music. Of course, I was thinking about Chase and Josh the whole time. Like they were there with me. There was this moment. And Josh also was in heavy metal bands. He played heavy metal music, and I loved all kinds of genres, but heavy metals not really my cup of tea. Like, I love metallica, I love whole you can still understand the lyrics, but heavy metal, screamo music. I love the guitars. I love high-intensity guitars and music and rock music. Like, I love Ramstein. I’m obsessed with Ramstein. It’s because they’re really hardcore. But they speak German so it’s like, I already don’t understand German so it’s okay. But screamo music. I don’t know what they’re saying. I don’t I’m not the biggest screamo fan. I will go to a screamo concert. I will go to a heavy metal concert. I’ll address the part, and I will have a blast. And I’ve done it. And I supported Josh was obsessed with Bingo. I think it helped him presses emotions. He was in so many metal bands. He was, like, producing metal music, blah blah blah. Had all these things going for him. And so Sean and Phoenix both love excision. I’ve never heard him. Has a lot of heavy metal influences. We’re, like, up at front. All jammed out look like Barbie dolls. Like, headbanging in the front of the excision, like, looking gay AF in front of all of these because excision, people are they what’s that called, mosh, they mosh pit. Like, you know, it’s EDM, but people are mashing. Like, It’s aggressive energy. It’s not really me. Like, I’m not that like, I was the little gay boy on the in ballet class on this side. The boys ballet class watching the other boys who were just there because their sports coaches made them do ballet. They were all tackling each other, and I’m there rolling my eyes. Like, I’ve never really been the type to, like, do that. So anyway, we’re, like, head-banging. There was a moment where excision because it’s, like, hard more metal, like, idiom. And then all of a sudden, he he saw us, like, in the front row. I where he did this for the three games on the front, because he played a quote on Britney. He was, like, it’s Britney Bitch. And then it just went back to the And then there’s a moment where he slowed down the music. He was like, I just wanna take a moment. I just recently lost someone that was really close to me, like, a few days ago or a year ago. I can’t remember the exact time period, but he was like, tonight, I’m really thinking about him and I’m really honoring him. And if there’s anyone out there in the audience, that’s like experience is significant loss recently. I just want you to know that you’re not alone and I don’t remember what else he said. But it was just I started crying, like, during a heavy metal EDM, set because I knew Josh was there, like, with me. Like like, your loved ones are always is there with you and your memories and your heart. And I am someone who believes in afterlife. I don’t believe in energy. I don’t know if it’s actual heaven or hell, I don’t really believe in that. But I do believe that our loved one’s energy, like, is there and guiding me. I feel like I have this, like, this, like, team of, like, almost, like they’re, like, in the van of, like, the spy van. They’re, like, up there. I can just, like, be, like, yo, guys. Hey. What’s up? Like, I just feel like I have access to all these people in the spiritual realm, and they’re always with me. So whenever you’re getting Jordan, you’re getting all it is. And to add go back to your question about eye flowers, Miley Cyrus song music. When I always thought I would need a boyfriend, a husband, a partner, before I came to Europe. I would need a rich sugar daddy. I would need this. I would need that.
I can’t go alone. It’s romantic to go to Europe. You know? So the fact that I’m out here by myself without a man or a partner, I haven’t even I’m still not ready to date yet until I finish my steps. So I haven’t gone around any dates. I met some guys, and I was kinda trying to meet up with this guy that I met in Brazil, like, in Switzerland, but he goes to me. So I haven’t kinda sad about that, but you said it would wouldn’t it be nice to share this? In the past, I’ve always thought, yes, it would be so nice to have a partner to share all these amazing things with. But you know what I’ve been realizing lately is, yeah, that would be nice and that will happen eventually. But right now, I’m sharing my life with you, Victoria. I’m sharing my life with these work away hosts. I’m sharing my life with my family, my parents. They’re so excited for me that I’m traveling. They’re so supportive of this. My dad started sending me money to help with this adventure, which I was not expecting. And then a lot of my friends are so supportive and so proud of me, like, I am sharing my life with people. Like, I’m sharing my life with amazing people. Like, I don’t I already am sharing my life with an amazing beautiful community. Like, I really am. It’s not I’m not missing anything. I have everything I need right now. I have food to eat. I have a house to sleep in. I have friends. I have family. I have love. I have animals. And, yes, it would be nice to have a intimate, romantic, love partner to share all this with, but it’s just gonna add to what I’m already sharing with other people.
Victoria Volk: I absolutely got full-body chills with you sharing that. And I think that is the most beautiful message. Anyone listening to this can hear today. And that and that is self-love. Right? That is self-love. Opening yourself up to share what you have with where you are right now. Yeah. And that’s what you’re doing. And so thank you because you just It’s such a gift. Like, you’re our share in your life with me and to not want. Right? Isn’t that, like, the isn’t that what peace really is? What other peace feels like is to not have a feeling of want, like to be at peace.
Jordan Brodie: That in Buddhism, they always talk about the four pillars of Buddhism. Buddhism is always about It’s all about the relinquishment of suffering. And suffering is defined as wanting something else outside of us. That is suffering. So when I’m sitting there, yearning for Chase to come back or yearning for Josh to come back or yearning for this guy or yearning for this or yearning for anything that’s not right here physically in front of me right now. I’m in a room by myself talking to you sitting on this bed. This room’s really pretty. It’s I’m this is my present moment. This is what I need to be an acceptance about. This is exactly where I am right now. It’s exactly where I need to be. It’s exactly where I’m supposed to be. This moment has never happened before ever. In this new time, it’s happening right now. This instant present moment. And that’s the present moment is where amazing things happen. It’s where really bad things happen. The present moment is where we need to be. And it’s all that matters because the future will give us anxiety if we obsessed about it and the past will depress us. So so, yeah, it is piece to let go of the wanting. It doesn’t mean we can’t have desires, but when we have desires, I’ve learned it’s important to make a plan of action and set some goals, and then start working towards those goals, but not obsessing about when they’re gonna happen. Because they’re gonna happen if they’re supposed to happen, we can’t control that. And I have my goals and do you have everything I want? And Yeah. Sometimes when I’m sad and lonely, I yearn for a romantic partner and sometimes I’m sad about why Chase, like, why Josh, like, why my why this why the and sometimes I have to stop myself and be like, well, it happened. It is what it is. It did happen, and I have to be in acceptance. Because if I’m not in acceptance, I get depressed, I get sad, I get kiss them. I know my brother and Chase and my aunt Julie and all my loved ones. They loved me so much. And they wanted me to be happy. They really did. They wanted me to have love they wanted me to be free. Josh was very supportive of me as a gay person and very protective. Actually, when I was acting out promiscuously, Josh should be, like, Jordan, that’s not who you are. Like, what are you doing? Like, that’s not my brother. Like, and he really loved me. And Chase too. Like, Chase was really trying to help me get closer to God because he could see how lost and broken I was. An eye cutting. It was a light in a dark place. And my aunt Julie, she was always like Jordan. Don’t hide from us. We know how gay you are. She’s like, you are fabulous. And she’d be like, why are you hiding from us because I was still hiding from everyone. I was the one who needed to accept me and love me. Everyone loves me and loved me so much. They love how gay I am. They love how feminine I am. They love it. I was the one who didn’t love it yet. And I’ve done some work, and I’m still working on that every day, loving myself and accepting myself as my daily journey. And my point is, Julie, Chase or Josh, would not have wanted me to be sad and miserable. They want me to be happy. They want we just celebrate life. They want me to be successful. They want me to be extra. They want me to dance around. They want me to make billions of dollars. They want me to have that a nice guy who takes really good care of me, they want me to be happy. I know that. It’s not a question. And so I know whenever I’m starting to feel sad and I get sad about them, I’ll say, guys, I’ll, like, kinda say I miss you. I’ll express to a friend that I miss them or I’ll write something or I’ll allow myself to cry or this song has been really helpful to me lately. The next right thing from Frozen two. Oh my gosh. That song just gets me. I listen to it every day sometimes. It just really helps with these emotions because that’s all we can do sometimes. Is the next right thing? What is the next right thing? I know after this, I got some stuff to do. That’s all we could do is the next right thing. And, yeah, I know that that they would be happy and mad with me. I’ll say one more thing too. I’ve learned this recently. There’s a great docu-series, by the way. On Disney plus that Morgan Freeman does called God, and he talks about lunch of different religions and their views, not just Christianity. He talks about Buddhism. He goes to India. I forgot the name of the city. It’s like Varnasse or Varsini India, which is one of the spiritual capitals of India. And he talks about in Hinduism, how they celebrate. They celebrate death. It’s not a taboo. It’s not this grim, sad thing. They believe and after life, they believe it’s a journey into a new thing, a new place. So they is a passage. They’re excited for their loved ones to go on and continue. It’s a celebration for them. And I kind of I have in American culture and eastern western culture death is seen as this morbid sad thing. Taboo talk topic, it’s awkward. We don’t know how to handle grief. We bat we don’t know how to handle it. We don’t have these social systems in place. Whereas in Hinduism, it’s celebrated. They’re like, hell yeah, like, I loved one died. They get to go on. They could have a new experience. It’s like going to college or something. I’m like, we’re getting a new job. It’s like in a new thing. It’s citing. So I’ve been trying to think about that with Chase and Josh and Julie and my other loved ones. It’s like, I make I’m excited for them. What are they doing now? They’re probably having so much fun. Like, who knows? Like, what? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I had a psychic medium on my podcast, her name’s Siri Burnson, and she spoke of a client of hers at one time who hurt this the client’s son had completed suicide. And the mother was just so concerned that her son was not in heaven. And he came through through the psychic and Derseri and she said he wants you to know that he’s in school. Mhmm. He described to through to Siri, like, where he is at, it’s school, that whatever lessons he didn’t learn in the three d he is learning now. And I’ve actually heard that different said a different way multiple times through other psychic mediums or through people who have had near death experiences or people who have actually died and come back who have talked about it like, looking like this experience or being this experience of, like, school.
Jordan Brodie: I love that. So where I’m at in Normandy, the host he teaches yoga and chi dong, Chinese like it’s kinda like tight. And then he does acupuncture. I did she gong on Monday with him Monday morning, and I had a spiritual experience. It’s like she energy and Chinese spirituality is God. It’s the energy of life, it’s the electricity, the spirit electricity, the realm that runs through you. And Shi Gang is just, like, movements like this. It’s just It’s not a hard exercise, but the whole point of it is the connectedness between heaven and earth, like the sky and earth And I had an epiphany during on my day. Because they always say the spirit realm. Right? It’s like energy. It’s not heaven. It’s whatever you believe it. It’s the afterlife. It’s it’s not tangible to the like you said, the three d plane, the this plane that we’re in right now. It’s another realm. The earth the real realm that we’re in right now is you know, tangible. We can touch things. Our blessing humans serve a huge placed in the universe because we’re the only creatures and animals I believe too that are the conduit the middle the middle ground between the spiritual realm and the real realm. We get to experience both. We get to experience the physical pain in existence and the spiritual pain. When we tap into God energy and we tap into our loved ones or past, it’s a blessing. It’s a huge honor to be human. And I had an epiphany that that’s what it means to be human. To be human means to be a conduit from this spiritual realm. And the and the physical realm. It’s a blessing and we have a purpose here to take care of each other and to take care of the animals who aren’t as advanced as us, I think it’s our responsibility to care for the animals, the and for the people that’s fortunate, the people that aren’t born with legs, the people that are born with diseases, if you have a privilege and you have legs or you have money you have resources, it’s our responsibility to take care of them. I had just had this whole epiphany during qingong, which is like so that’s why it’s good to be open-minded too. Like, I was raised, Christian, I read the bible. I do believe in Jesus. I do pray to God. I do believe in that. But I do think it’s important to be open to other things that aren’t out of your comfort zone to, like, new cultures and new things because the Chinese have been around for way longer than Americans have, so they’ve had plenty of time to think about things. They’ve I’ve so it’s, like, I had this a mate. I highly recommend Xevon for anyone. You really feel like the energy. Like, I felt you can feel it. Like, you can feel God. It’s so cool. I love it. Anyway, it kinda got off a tangent, but yeah.
Victoria Volk: I recently did Tai Chi at a retreat women’s retreat and I really phoned. Okay.
Jordan Brodie: Takes you off.
Victoria Volk: I really like that too. Can you just share a little bit for those listening? How does work away work? Because First of all, it’s amazing that you had that experience. You had that epiphany because of work away. Like, you’re experiencing all of these things and meeting all of these people because you took a chance on this opportunity to do this. So can you just explain a little bit how it worked? Like, you know, do you have to pay obviously, you probably have to pay to get yourself overseas and, like, how does that work?
Jordan Brodie: Yeah. I’ll explain. Okay. So this is something I’ve been wanting to do for, like, seven years. I don’t know how I discovered it, but there’s a website called workaway.info. It’s the website workaway.info, not .com .info. It’s been around for a really long time. It’s a social media platform. You can make a free profile, but in order to message host or message people, you have to pay fifty-six dollars or sixty dollars for the whole year. It’s like a subscription. And what that pays for is basically like, it helps filter out, like, kind of shaving people.
Victoria Volk: They’re vetting the people that get on that platform.
Jordan Brodie: Exactly. Because And then I there’s some type of background check process. I don’t know, actually, how that works. I don’t know if I don’t remember filling out a background check form, but they might do that. They do some type of thing verification process. I don’t remember. But It’s just a website anyone can apply for an e make a profile. I put on my profile. I’m good with children. I can cook. I’m good with animals. I worked at the doggy daycare. My grandpa had a farm when I was little. He told me to work when I was fourteen. I was always working on the tractor and the grass, this kind of stuff. My parents would always have me do tasks. I explained all of this and I explained my interest, and I’m learning French, and I know a little bit of Spanish. I put all this in my profile. You just make a profile. And then there’s workaway hosts. So people all over the world. There’s some in Austin, Texas. They’re all over the world. Every country, South Africa. There’s this really cool one near Cape Town. This guy has a Safari company where she takes people on Safari tours. And he just needs people’s help. The maximum hours you’re supposed to work is twenty hours a week, by the way. They’re not supposed to ask for anymore. And so for me, it’s usually about four to five hours a day, five days a week, Monday to Friday. I work about. So it’s not much. And this guy in South Africa wants people to help do marketing on for his safari business. There’s people who want nannies for their kids. There’s people who have the in Switzerland, Bern, I was helping her Flyer for her. She was starting a high school in her area. I was helping pass out flyers in the city center. And they help them cook, can I help them clean, and help them go shopping? The first work away, she could I was helped She broke her leg last year as older lady. So I was helping her with things she couldn’t do because of that her leg pain. And there’s all kinds of jobs, all of it. So you just make a profile, you pay for it, and then you message place you you can search by country where you wanna go, and then you just start messaging host. You say, hey, I’m interested in this and it’s completely volunteering. So it’s a way to get around. They want people to stay for longer than two weeks, usually two or three weeks, a month, two months, three months. One girl is staying here for eight months because they have long-term projects and they want someone to stay for a while. And it’s a lot of very interesting people that do the hosting. And you’re helping out. You’re like, living in, like, living and helping. And you get food, you have access to food, and a place to stay, but you’re volunteering so you I don’t have to get a special visa. Like, if you if I get paid from someone, I’ll have to get a work visa in this country. Wherever so I don’t have to get a visa because I’m volunteering. I when you come here, I say I’m I’m traveling. I’m a tourist because I technically am still traveling. I’m a tourist, but I am working in exchange to stay here. It’s just kind of a loophole. I feel like I found like hitch hiker’s guide to the galaxy, and then come on. What was my thumb? But I am offering some ands it’s pretty scary, but you just wanna make sure you message them. And I’ve made sure to have video chat with each of the host before going and seeing if I got along with them. There were some people I said no to because I didn’t feel comfortable. I didn’t want anyone that just wanted me to crash and pooch because I knew that would harbor it with them in them. I wanted to work. I have to work twenty hours a week. Because I don’t want to freeload. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing. It’s a great way to travel because I’ve always been wanting to do this for seven years. I was terrified to do it. I almost canceled this trip. So many times, I had just lost my job. I was in limbo. I used my last bit of unemployment money. To buy my plane tickets out here. And you can get some Gritty cheap tickets to Europe. What you do is you type your city in the US, in flights dot Google.com. Type in your city. And in destination, you can put Europe. So you don’t have to put the country, and it’ll show you what the cheapest flight to fly into. And I found a really cheap flight to Norway. It was only three hundred dollars. And then and then from Norway, there was, like, ten dollar fight from Norway to London. And then March, that’s how I got here. So so you can do that. Like, you just find the cheapest place to fly to. And once you’re over here, they have a airlines called Ryanair, which is kinda like Spirit Airlines in US. It’s just really cheap flights and ten dollars, twenty dollars, thirty dollar flights. It’s two other like, my flight to Edinburg was, like, forty dollars. Like, I’m going at the end of this month or next month. Wow. So So, yeah, my next workaways in Scotland. I can only be in Europe for ninety days because I don’t have citizenship and I don’t have a visa. But in the UK, you can be there for six months without a Visa. So I’m gonna go to UK for at least ninety days and then come back to Europe, and I’m just gonna bounce around between UK and Europe until I get my citizenship. Once I get my citizenship, I can get a job out here I can get an apartment, get a house. So so that’s what I’m doing. And it’s a great way to travel. I recommend it for anyone. Because you get to have a cultural experience, you get to meet locals, you get to hang out with some I’m not just in a hotel and going to guided tours. Like, I’m meeting locals. I’m experiencing the culture. I’m experiencing the history. Like, I’m in a small town. You get to feel what it’s like to live in another country. And I’ve always been very interested in how of first generation American feels like an immigrant, someone who moves to America without like, knowing the language. I’ve met people like that and they’re so inspiring me for me. They’re such hard workers they barely know the language and they have to build an entire life and they’re usually sending money back to their family. They’re just inspiring amazing wonderful people to me. I’ve always been fascinated with what with them. So I think that’s why I’m so attracted to being here in Europe and kind of being an immigrant here. I don’t like the word expat. It sounds too I technically am, but I don’t I’m not yet, but I don’t it sounds to, like, like, boosie, whatever.
Like, I’m an immigrant. I’m an immigrant as someone who migrates to another place. Like, It’s there’s no bad terminology about it. Alright. Nextiva, whatever you wanna call me about. World traveler. World traveler? Jitsi. Jitsi. An Experiancer. Listen to ladyaga Jitsi a lot.
Victoria Volk: This has been so fun catching up with you, and I’m excited to see how this experience will change you. Over the next year. And I am actually, like, let’s plan a catch up maybe not as long as two years, maybe in eighteen months or something like that. I would love to see. Yeah.
Jordan Brodie: I’d love to see you another one in a year. Yeah. It’s exciting. I’m I’m curious to know for the listeners, like like, what people what their experience with grief is and traveling and I’m really curious to know if I’m the only one who feels this like connection with, like, with my loved ones that have passed. Like, if you will if I’m just kinda delusional about all this or.
Victoria Volk: No. I can even tell you just people who I’ve talked to and had who have been on this podcast that that’s not true, that you’re not alone in that.
Jordan Brodie: Are thinking about them a lot. And, yeah, no one really prepares me for it. And it’s kinda like a splinter. Like, you just gotta rip out which just happens.
Victoria Volk: It’s very true.
Jordan Brodie: Well, thank you. Yes. So wonderful.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Thank you so much for being here and for catching us up on your life. And I look forward to seeing what workaway brings to you in the future? Because I think it’s
Jordan Brodie: I’m still working on music. I’m actually looking for recording studios right now because I have I’ve have a song written that I want to record And so I’m still doing my music stuff. Like, I haven’t given up on my influencer music artist’s dreams. I’m just trying to make a more deeper, more personal brand than just, like, like, some candy, pot, like, superficial, like, three d like, just two-dimensional person. I’m just trying to be authentically myself, but I’m still gonna do music and stuff. One thing I haven’t done, sadly, since Chase and Josh died, I haven’t really written about them. Or about their death or about any of that. I want to. I’ve been kind of procrastinating and printing it off. One of my favorite artists is Grimes. I don’t know if you know her, but she’s amazing. I love her. She’s so wonderful. And I learned this that her first album of Libya was written in Vancouver, Washington, her best friend died from a drug overdose, and she was to deal with her grief. She locked herself in her apartment for, like, a week and wrote oblivion, which was her first like, landmark album that, like, blew her up. And I’ve been wanting to do this. But I haven’t known how. I have actually brings up some pain like mention like, I’ve been afraid my impostor syndrome says, I’m not good enough to produce all the songs by myself. That I need a microphone. I need this. I need that. I need this. Like, there’s all these excuses that I have. And I really hopefully, by the next time we talk, I will have done a lock-in for a week and written about Jason. Josh, and Julie, and my other loved ones. I’ve written about Julie. She is my aunt. I didn’t really mention that. I mentioned to her a little bit. Right? She died, like, a while ago, something overdose. But, like, I didn’t I still haven’t written about Jason Josh, and I really I think I need to. I’m kind of waiting for the right time. It’s gonna happen when it’s supposed to happen. And but this next song I’m doing is called it’s it’s gonna be like a chill kind of pop song like asking people to get to know me because I want people to get to know me. That’s why I love doing this podcast because I really hope some of my friends and loved ones watch this and it helps me connect with more people because I want an audience that’s real and not superficial. Like, we all have a reason why we’re connected. It’s not just because I’m hot or just because I have good music. It’s like, they have a reason. You know?
Victoria Volk: Well, and I imagine that the loss of your loved ones aside that just traveling over the next year or two that what you experience will inspire your writing for sure.
Jordan Brodie: Oh, definitely. And I haven’t really written about traveling yet. I’d like to, but I’ve been writing. I’ve written a few songs yesterday. I’ve been writing. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Let the environment inspire you because it sounds like it is, so that’s wonderful.
Jordan Brodie: Well, thank you, Victoria. Bye now.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Love you too. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Healing, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Suicide, Where Are They Now? |
Quandell Wright | Where Are They Now?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Quandell’s first episode was Ep. 28 | The Scars of Abuse, Poverty, and Shame, recorded in October 2020 and went live on January 5th, 2021.
Listening to Quandell’s first episode is recommended to appreciate where Quandell was and how far he’s come in his life.
He asks one question in this episode: “How do you grieve?” It’s a question we all would benefit from reflecting upon and recognizing where we may need additional support or accountability for moving forward.
Personal development and life transformation is a marathon, not a sprint. In this first “Where Are They Now” episode, Quandell shares how his life has changed in the two and a half years since we first spoke.
In the words of Quandell: “You never know if the best is yet to come. What if you looked at life this way?”
Just breathe…
RESOURCES:
CONNECT :
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️i. My 12-week in-person or online program helps Grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better, and Do Grief Differently™️. You learn new tools, education, and a method you can utilize the rest of your life. In this program. And with my guidance, you remove the pain of grief, the sadness will always be there because even in complicated relationships we love but it’s the pain of grief that keeps us stuck. Are you ready to do grief differently? Check out my website wwwtheunleashedheart.com to learn more.
Victoria Volk 0:00
Welcome to grieving voices today is a Where are they now episode and I would like to reintroduce you to an old friend of mine, who I’ve been following ever since we first talked and I’m excited to share where he’s been, because this is me learning for the first time to just what his updates are. But I’ve been following him online. And I know he’s been doing some amazing things. So I’m excited for him to share more about that. But first, Q Quandell I call you Q. Please reintroduce yourself to those who may be listening to this for the first time. Just tell us who you are.
Quandell Wright 0:45
Okay, cool. Hey, how you doing? My name is Quandell Wright I’m a I’m the founder, fashion designer of William Palmer. I’m based out of Detroit, Michigan. So that’s why.
Victoria Volk 0:55
I love it. And we first talked I actually looked it up just to make sure I get it right, because your first episode is episode 28. And it was published January 5 2021. So here we are, over two years later. Isn’t that crazy?
Quandell Wright 1:00
I know. Right?
Victoria Volk 1:04
And but we initially talked October 22 2020. And at the time you had been going through, or you had just finished something like that. It was around that time you were working with me in Grief Recovery. Yeah. And I imagine a lot has changed for me in that time. But I imagine so much has changed for you too. And yeah. So I suggest for those who haven’t listened to Episode 28, start there, because this one will make it’ll just be the icing on the cake. This episode is like that. Yeah. So listen to that one first, come back to this one. So please, share with me, what’s all changed for you since then?
Quandell Wright 2:06
Oh, a lot. Um, I mean, my, my spirit, you know, definitely, you know, start from there. I had a rough that was a rough year for me, every level you could probably think of, um, but, you know, my, my brand, like my career and everything that I’m doing a lot of things is elevated. And so it’s been it’s been a journey for sure. It’s been a journey. So from that time to now it’s been a lot of like recovery, a lot of growth. A lot of, you know, of course ups, you know, ups and downs, you know, that that comes with life. But overall, like, it’s been, it’s been great. It’s been an experience, you know, I want to kind of day ranch in 2020. That was a Yeah. So fast forward to now with that information, I’m actually kind of connected with the guy that designed Kanye footwear. So yeah, so that’s, that’s really, really dope, collaborating with Baron Davis, the former former former NBA player, and I’ve been working with Gary Payton as well. It’s been really nice. It’s been nice. It’s been nice. So but other than that, like my spirit, just the way that I look at life from a different perspective, controlling my emotions and know how to get out of certain spaces when I need to take in my time grieving when I need to knowing how to grieve, you know, because life still carry on and things still happen. You know, I lost a couple more people throughout the years and things like that. So just kind of learn it and just, you know, learn it from what you taught me about about grieving and everything like that helped me a lot with it, and helped me help others with the grieving process as well. So it’s been a journey and it’s been great. So that’s for now I am. I am happy.
Victoria Volk 4:03
I’m loving hearing that. Absolutely. Especially how you mentioned your spirit, like you feel healthier and your spirit.
Quandell Wright 4:11
Definitely feel healthy and my spirit and, and physically, I’ve been going to the gym like crazy. I lost about overall I lost almost about 20 pounds. So I’m 16 pounds away from my go. Yes, thank you and I’m a gym rat now like, I have to be in there. I’m in there almost every day of the week. If it’s not then you know, too heavy. I’m doing something like but I made sure I get in gym and I get into Gemini. I release you know, I release stress, whatever and it really helps you know, eating better. Intermittent fasting has been great for me. You know, I’ve been able to clear my mind and yeah, it’s been good. It’s been good. So far, so good. It’s been good.
Victoria Volk 4:55
And so at the time to you, we’re just really getting going on Disney shirt designs and things like that out of your garage. Right? And so how has that changed? Like what are you doing now in that line of business there since that’s been the huge biggest shift elevation?
Quandell Wright 5:13
Yeah, exactly. Um you know I’m still into like the apparel of course, but now I kind of shift a shifted more towards accessory so are we least like this handbag, the pyramid handbag and that kind of like just took me off like not a just like, oh, you’re a purse guy. Like they don’t even remember the polls at all. Yeah. But it’s great. It’s great. Just been in the public eye. People taking selfies with me getting invited to places is really though, is a huge change. Yeah, so I’m getting.
Victoria Volk 5:47
I want to celebrate you for a minute too, because I was looking through your Instagram. And there was a Grammy winner. Yeah, correct. Yes. Who sported your purse? Yeah. Can you share about that?
Quandell Wright 6:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Mr. Ryan, he’s actually a writer for oh, what is the name of that show? I forgot. Last is it last week? Last week, last week. Thursday is a show but he’s, he’s a writer for I think his name is John Oliver. I think he wrote for him for that show. He was a co writer. And a friend of mine is actually she is her name is Stephanie. She is the fashion coordinator for William Palmer. The style is of Mr. Ryan contacted her because she knew that she was affiliated with me somehow. And she contact me like, hey, this style is need to talk to you. They want to pull a few bags. And I’m like, sure, you know, and the stylists came over. We got connected. She came over and she was like, Yeah, you heard John Oliver. I was like, Yeah, you know that. She was like, Yeah, well, you know, Mr. Ryan, you know, he right with him. And he would like to wear your bag on the red carpet. I didn’t. He’s like what? And I had all these. Luckily, I had some bags here in my studio. And I was like, well, whatever you like, whatever you can do take. They took a few bags, they ended up you know, sending me a payment. I wasn’t even expecting to get paid for it. I would just assign it to have someone just sport it, you know, but he paid for their bag. He paid for the bag and I still ended up gifting one to him or whatever. And um, the next thing I know he wore it I think they had like a preemies it’s like it’s like me like red carpet before the actual Emmys but he were both bags for both days. And I was just really excited about it. And it was just a great experience to be put in that space and knowing like yo like I’m actually more out there than I think I am because I still just walk around like a normal person and people like oh, you will your bomber your him you know what I say him? You’re him. You’re the purse guy. Like Yeah, can I get a selfie? Can I get so it’s a great experience is really no I love it. But that was a that was really good though. That was really though, and I appreciate Mr. Ryan for that. So he’s still where he posts a picture with you know, one of his bags and one of his outfits. I love it. I love to see that so,
Victoria Volk 8:18
I just wanted to celebrate you for a moment there because that is so exciting. I’m just I think back to so many of those early conversations and and how low that we can feel in our lives you know you feel like you’re at rock bottom and I know your backstory and to just see you flourish now just these are the stories I love it’s it the Triumph stories right the comeback kid the you know you’re kidding me of someone who just kept with it and just stuck with it and never gave up on your dreams and your goals and and how is the shift with shifted things with your family?
Quandell Wright 9:01
Um, it’s you know, I’ve learned to how I want to put this I learned to like just be okay with certain things we can’t control everything family I mean everybody is well you know we we functioning better you know, I will say that we okay but um you know, I’m working I’m just learning how to stay in my space stay respectful try my best to keep peace and the same as on you know, her side as well. We try to understand and things like that but other than that the kids is great. The situation is a little bit better. You know, we could kind of like bump heads here and there. But you know, for the most part is way better than what it was before. So, as time go on, I believe that it can become better. I believe that but in the meantime, you know I’m working. I’m in my space she’s wearing gives us the airspace, the kids, they do and everything and sports and, you know, relationship, there’s all types of stuff going on with them. But you know, we are supportive, we are a great supportive family for one another. And, you know, we’re just doing our best we’re doing the best we possibly can. But it’s way better. It is is way better. So that’s a good thing.
Victoria Volk 10:21
Well, and like you said, you only have control over yourself. And so drawing a circle around your feet and focusing on becoming better for for yourself, you in turn become better for your family, too. And so, I love that things have improved in that area as well of your life. How would you describe the queue that you talked that talk to me? Two plus years ago? And how would you describe yourself today.
Quandell Wright 10:57
Um, the cute two years ago was very, was very, like, hurt, in dealing with past hurt and present hurt. So that’s a lot of hurt at that time. Very hitting, you know, per se, just trying to stay out of the way. angry, very angry. felt misunderstood. And then understand a lot of things. So it was just a lot of this trying to figure out how to handle things, you know, I’m saying because we think life is this way, but then you get this curveball, but life is actually this way. But how can I make life this way? So is this you know, it just always this and what I had to realize is that life dude, throw curveballs here and there. And it’s actually lessons, you know, so the cue now is more understanding more something. Very, very, um, I listened more now, you know, I was more defensive than and I can be a little defensive steal a little bit, but I’m learning to just like just hush and just receive the information. And then now, you know, with that, I can, you know, put out the information I want to put out, you know, because sometimes if we just sit there and receive the information clearly, and really comprehend it, it might not the situation might not even be about you for one, or you know, I’m saying whatever the case might be, but you have to listen to understand what’s going on. And what I had to understand is that a lot of people paying is not really paying, they have flipped it on you, it already has nothing to do with you at all, it just a lot of just, I want to put it like this. A lady might bump you in a grocery store, and you might blow up at her, right? That frustration wasn’t really for her. But she was the one that kind of shut the bottle to make you explode. Everything else, they had nothing to do with her. But it would just that moment, they just trigger that emotion. Like, that was the last little thing that just helped you like just release and just blow up at her. And she looking like whoa, this lady hate people. But it’s not that it’s just that you’ve been bottling, so much pain from your past, and situations in your present time. And you’re trying to just keep this bad day or keep this capsule as hard as possible. But this lady, this bumped you just a little bit with her basket. And now you just like, because that was like just everything right? So I had to understand that a lot of stuff that people throw at you is not really meant for you in the first place. It just at that moment, you just trigger a nerve, you just trigger some type of circuit emotional circuit that they you know, we all have, and I’m just that person that they see at that moment. But a lot of pain is not for you. So I had to learn that. And I do accept that. Because sometimes some people don’t understand that I like but okay, that’s not meant for me. I know that you had a lot of stuff going on. And that’s stuff that you have to grieve about and learn how to like, kind of like, fix that yourself. So I know that’s not meant for me. So I can’t take that. You know, I’m saying and be like, Oh, that was for me. And now I’m doing the same to you because it never stops. If that keeps happening. You’re not fixing anything, you’re not fixing the problem. You’re not coming up with a solution and you’re not fixing ourselves. So it’s just toxic. You know, I’m saying like energy all day long. But the reality is, you didn’t cause the pain that I have. Anyway, you know, I’m saying like, so I had to learn it. I had to learn it. So she’s getting better with self expression or so too. And I am too in a way so yeah, listening is key.
Victoria Volk 15:00
Well, it sounds like you’re listening to hear not listening to respond. And that is the difference, right? It’s called active listening. Yeah. And it brings me back to what I talk about because you speak in my language with the tea kettle, the analogy we use in Grief Recovery is you know, the tea kettle, we either implode or explode. Remember that
Quandell Wright 15:20
Exactly, exactly what you’re describing, as Yeah, remember that? Yeah, it’s true. It’s true. grieving and like grieving is easier said than done. Honestly, and I’m listening to, to not respond. is easier said than done. That is a very hard task for someone to sit there and let someone just express how they feel about nobody likes to hear like the raw feelings about their selves, because you already think want you already think stuff about yourself anyway, I don’t care who you are, you already have some self. Some self thoughts about you, like, Oh, I feel this way. And I’m overweight and stuff like so somebody’s telling you like, yeah, I have a problem that you’ve been overweight, you’re gonna get upset, like what I am trying, I am walking like you’re not let them you know, you’re not you’re defensive. Now, you know, in this lesson, because the next sentence may be like, No, you’re overweight. But I do see you trying, you will never hear that part. Because you already just jumped the gun because you hurt. I don’t like how you’re overweight. And you’re like, hey, look, I’ve been trying, I’ve been walking, you see me getting up, you see, whoop. And this person, like, I don’t even want to talk anymore, because you can’t even let me talk. And I was the whole. No, I was not you picking not? You know, now you like, Well, when I was trying to talk, you know, and it never stops. But you don’t know that that next sentence possibly was agreeing with you like, No, I don’t like how you’re, you know, you overweight a little bit. But I do see you trying. And I love that. And I have a few solutions, but we never get to the good part, because we hear the bad part. And we blow up and begin ffensive. So listening, and not responding is very good. It does. Yeah, it’s very good. Um, I’m not perfect, but it’s good.
Victoria Volk 17:09
It’s almost like when you have purchases that are sitting in your cart, or you know, shopping is one of the STERBS, right, the short term energy relieving behaviors. And so the recommendation, I’ve heard this not that long ago, wait five days, just wait five days, have it in your cart, and just wait five days. And after five days, if you still think you can’t live without it, at least you’ve let five days pass and you’ve sat with it, right? It’s almost like maybe wait five hours before you respond after someone shares something with you. And it’s okay to say, Hey, I just need to walk away. And I need to think about this. And I don’t want to say something that I will regret later, I want to really give a thoughtful response. And so, you know, can we put a pin in this conversation and come back to it when I’m not emotional? Right? Right. That’s part of emotional regulation is knowing when we’ve met our, our capacity to, to articulate ourselves clearly and to also hear clearly as well to write. Alright, let me ask you this, what is something that you would tell somebody who may be you two years ago? And are listening to you today? Like what do you think has been, maybe it’s been multiple things, what has helped you the most to, like, maintain, and to keep on this track of growth and development and
Quandell Wright 18:40
I’m brief, brief, I had to like sit down one day, like in a quiet space, and just breathe and look at the reality of a lot of things like life is really what we make it, a lot of the situations that we are in, is because of decisions that we made. And if you make important decisions, you get poor results. So I had to sit back and just look like okay, I’m behind on bills, because because of me because I actually pay for something else and thought I was able to come back and pay for that. But I should have just paid my bill first, I will never shut off simple decisions like that will fix a lot of stuff in our lives. Like okay, this bill come in, I’m gonna take care of that right now. I’m gonna just get it out of the way. So whatever else that I want. I could get that whenever I want. But take care of this bill first, I can’t afford anything to get shot off. You know, so I feel like we cause a lot of disrupt like disruption in our lives with our decision making, just breathe and just kind of just look at life from a different perspective. You know, I’m saying is really is really easier than we think it is. Life is really easier than we think it is. It’s really based off what we do and how we handle situations. I mean, like, I mean things happen, because that’s the life that just one happens. But I think we have a little bit more control than anybody say that we do. I really believe that like, if I go outside and throw rocks at cars, I’m going to jail like it’s, you know, like, I can’t like that was an important decision. But if I go outside and help somebody that was in a car accident or something like that, I mean, a good word might come out of it there or later on in life, or just, it might not never come, but you did a good deed, you made a good decision. And good things happen when you do good things. And bad things happen when you do bad things. I’m all about energy and frequency as well. I feel like if you, you have a chance to change, you know, a guy that robbed like 17 banks, he probably would have got away at a 16 bank robbery if he really stopped, but he didn’t. So he got arrested on the 17th one, and he like, ah, oh, my God, I shouldn’t. But I mean, you know, like your frequency have to change. If you if your fingers see the same, you want to get the same results, you want to get the outcome that you’re not going to like or you can’t handle. So people have time to change, you do have time to change your frequency is a lot of people in the world as walking around that we can only imagine what they’ve done in a life, they probably don’t know worst of the worst that we could ever imagine. Right? But they frequency change. And they live in life. Now they knew when to stop. And I know like when I say this to certain people they by Well, I mean eventually karma. And I’m like, Well, I believe the universe is neutral. And I do believe a karma and as such, but if you’re Frank or sea change, you won’t have to worry about that type of karma in a sense. So yeah, it only the bad results only happens if you keep going. You know, I’m saying so if you always depressed, that’s what I’ll say I don’t. I said I’m depressed. I stopped saying that a long time. I’d be like, Look, I’m fine. I’m going to be okay. I’m okay. This would be the storm will pass. Because of you the subconscious mind. I know the difference. So if you I’m depressed, I’m upset. I’m sad. You’re building that space for yourself. And that’s how you’re going to feel you’re going to be more low every day, low vibrations every day. But even through bad situations, I’d be like, I’m fine. I figured out not dying. You know, I’m gonna be okay. If it don’t work out the way that I think it should. It’s okay, how do they want to come I can’t the whale and live in that space at this moment. It’d be Oh,
Victoria Volk 22:43
I remember when we first talked you kind of you were just dabbling in talk started, you know, or you’re just kind of dabbling into metal you were dabbling into meditation. And you’re you were thinking more along those lines of frequency and energy. And, and I at that time, I was I had just, I was a Reiki Master. But I’ve since added biofield tuning, which uses tuning forks and addresses our energy field that’s outside our body and I’ve added stuff to my energy healing work too. And, and so when you speak to that stuff, I get really excited because
Quandell Wright 23:17
Because it’s real. Yeah. It’s real is real for anybody that’s listening, please. I know. Dr. Joe Dispenza. Dispenza Yep. The guy’s top tier. The becoming supernatural was like my favorite book. It’s very deep, get chills reading it, real testimonies. And he showed his show you how to channel your energy and chuck is just so deep he is. He is a great guy. I would love to go one of his his workshops. I’m trying to get the money because it’s expensive, but it’s very, very worth it. I really want to go but I mean, the guy’s amazing. Just kind of follow him on Instagram and seeing the work that he put in he he’s definitely like a great, a great person, I can tell that but please anybody that’s like really interested in becoming more spiritual. Please check him out. Dr. Joe Dispenza is a great great, a great author, great doctor, like he’s, he’s phenomenal. Like, I recommend that book to anybody that’s going through and you don’t even have to be a spiritual, you know, Christian or whatever. Religion is still a great read because we all have to, we all have energy, we all have aura, so is very great. It’s not about religion, or anything like that. It’s really about self. So it’s really a great book is really a great read.
Victoria Volk 24:38
And for anyone who doesn’t know Dr. Joe Dispenza was actually told he would never walk again after he broke his back during a bicycling accident. And with the power of his own mind and his own thoughts, he helped to heal himself. Yeah. And so that’s what his work is based on. He’s actually doing a lot of research at his During his workshops, is week long workshops, he’s conducting research on meditation and how long to meditate and, you know, like, they’re doing research right now during their workshops. And so
Quandell Wright 25:14
Just check into that. Make sure
Victoria Volk 25:20
I saw you was going to be in Tulum, Mexico, I actually just got his workshop notification for Tulum, Mexico, but you’ll get there. I’ve no doubt you’ll get there. Put that forward.
Quandell Wright 25:31
Yeah, we definitely have to go. I think that’s, that’d be a great experiment is well, like, I love his book, I listened to the YouTube minute, you know, the meditations that he had the guidance, great guy, great guy. But yeah, we all make a human. If we tap in, we can heal ourselves. We can. The testimonies in that book are phenomenal. I mean, people heal on a cell from cancer, I mean, Zima, like, whatever, they really just happening with their inner self, their higher self, and really like figuring out the body, the body already held us up automatically, when we really, really tap into it, you can really get some stuff done. Ms. V is right, he did heal his self, he discharges. So from the hospital, he hid this stuff at home. So he’s amazing.
Victoria Volk 26:19
Speaking of good deeds, which you mentioned earlier, I’m curious myself, but at the time when we first started talking, you are inviting young men into your home. Yeah, almost a weekly basis just for moms, giving them a space that you could create community and have a safe space for them to talk about their feelings. Yeah, and all of that, or is that something you have come back to? Are you still doing that? Is it something you want to do? Again?
Quandell Wright 26:50
Yeah, yeah, I want to do it. Again, I’m trying to make it a nonprofit organization. And it’s actually called us, us men. So it’s on Instagram is us_mensociety. I don’t have a lot of push right now. Because my brand is like going crazy. But I am trying to, like, get back into that. And that was a really, really dope experience. Like, it wasn’t really like, I didn’t have it to where it was like a, like AAA meetings or anything like that, you know, we had the TV go on video games at FIU. It was just no phones, some beers. And we thought it would just regular conversation. And people share stories, you know, and I always say, like, you don’t have to share the deepest, we’re not here for that. We just really want people to feel like this is a safe space, even if you don’t say none that all along because you know, it feel like real good energy around you. And it’s people that you can talk to whenever you want to, you know, that’s more than enough. And people really, like it’s a lot of men out here that have to heal, like we don’t know where to go, there’s no know where to start. So I want to start it back up, for sure. I will love like, I would love to like rent out spaces or to have a bigger, you know, bigger space and have more men come and we could just converse and just talk about our feelings and testimonies or whatever the case might be for that, you know, so yeah, please call us man, I will be like, selling T shirts and all that, you know, selling to raise money. So we can so I can be able to have resources and brain resources to them as well. Because I know it’s not a lot of programs for men out here, or mental health, for that matter for anybody. Because everybody think medicine fix everything is not, you know, medicine don’t fix everything. It’s just a band aid. But we really need some like internal healing, you know, and sometimes it might just take a hug or like, No, I do care for you. You are enough. You know, you want to be okay, I’m here for you. That can be the cure. Some people have people out here who don’t care about the more they feel that way. But they need to hear that sometimes. And you don’t take the time to actually do that with people. So yeah, I just thought about all types are like great ideas like that for mental health for men and for everybody, for that matter. But um, yeah, I feel like a lot of men black and white man, he actually has, we have I believe you have the highest suicide rate right now as well. So, yeah, a lot of man feel feel alone, you know, because there’s so much teittleman in, like, man supposed to do this. And man, you know, we get that a lot, a lot a lot. And it’s like, Yo, I’m human, I just want to just be human for a day. You know, like, you know, like, what’s going on? Like, why we just watch us all the time. Like, can I just be I’d be pampered for once can I be a human today? Can I you know, I’m sad because I have feelings too. I do love I do care. You know, and I want people to do that for me, like love me and care for me as well. So, you know, to the men out there like there are a safe space. There are people that you can contact and talk to all the time and you’re not forgotten. You’re not You’re not overlooked. You know, it’s just society. Just got things twisted up, we’re gonna fix that we’re gonna figure it out.
Victoria Volk 30:04
And for anyone listening, men, white, black, whatever ethnicity you are. Q is obviously a wonderful inspiration. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing about that in the work that you are hoping to do and hope to bring to your community. And yeah, just I love you. I love you. I love you.
Quandell Wright 30:27
I love you too. Happy. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 30:30
So looking forward to this conversation with you. Let me ask you this. And I’m biased, of course, because I’m love Grief Recovery. And I know that how it’s changed many people’s lives. But had you never done that? Have you ever thought about that, like, in the last two years? Like had you never experienced that or learned what you learned through that? The new tools and the new knowledge? Yeah. Have you ever reflected on that? Like, had you not had that experience?
Quandell Wright 31:00
Of course, of course. Um, yeah, it was definitely a huge impact for like, for where I’m at now. And I tell people about you all the time, you know, so I don’t know. Because so I thought I thought I was better, Dan, you know, because I come from a dark place before that time. And I’m like, I’m back here again. You know, it’s something I’m missing. But I just had to just, I had to realize, like, his life is life, like, you don’t matter, like how better we get life happens. And whatever that is, it just, it just happens. It just, I don’t know, a person that just went through life and nothing happened, like negative like, you know, it just doesn’t work that way. But the tools that you had gave me, it quit, you know, helped me quit was, is I still use to this day, like, because it’s true. And it’s real and been able to like, look at different light, just like Dr. Joe, you know, just been able to research and find people like him. And it’s another guy. He’s an artist, his name is line jurrell. He’s an artist. He’s like, so positive rap artists. And he’s very, very, very good. I’m gonna share some stuff with you. He have like, meditation, a playlist, like a meditation, like pay playlists, like from it’s a meditation for each for each chakra.
Victoria Volk 32:18
Chakra okay, yeah, I would love that.
Quandell Wright 32:21
And his music is beautiful. And I’m like, see, this is the music that needs to be on the radio positive energy, this is the music that need to be in your subconscious mind on a daily basis. So, you know, so without, without you definitely I would have it would have been worse for me for sure. And I really do appreciate you all, you know, for giving me your time and really taking the time to listen and really did a great assessment, you know, because anybody can just hear you. But everybody don’t listen to you. And that’s just that’s a difference. And you really didn’t listen to me. Give me a lot of tools. I still kind of journal to this day here and there. And that works. You know it do it works. Rip it up. Boom. You know, I know I was listening to Oh, Lon jurrell He was like, everything that’s making you feel upset or angry the press just think of it, like a balloon or a glass cup and just break it like release it mentally, like release it and you have to and we get some points. I still go through things I still get upset. I still you’re supposed to you’re human. That’s I know that I’m still alive. Like if you’re walking around here, like do I’m happy every day like nothing happened. Like no, no, it’s okay to be upset. It’s okay to be mad. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to be. It’s okay. But don’t live there. Don’t live there. Brief. If you could come up with a solution. Try it’s okay to try to make turn things in try to see like, Okay, let me see if I can control the ball. We all try this. Try it. But the ball is this if it’s this, if it’s just too strong and it’s just a you know that you lose it. It’s okay. More bulls account for you to control more. It’s okay. Just let that one go. It’s alright, you fail that one. You got beat up cool. You didn’t die. So you got another chance we could figure it out. It might take weeks but we have figured it out. So I appreciate you a lot. I do. And I do tell people about you all the time. So this is this is great. And I’m I be able to share this and people are like oh, that’s what he was talking about. My yes follower. Your program. You know, I’m saying like sign up for programs and stuff like that because you are a very, very important person to the community. You know, to the cultures, different cultures and things like that. And people need to hear this because Grief Recovery that’s not been talked about a lot still to this day. People might try to get you to do your We’ll go meditation and that’s fine. But how do you agree? How do you agree? You know, and they don’t know how they don’t know. Some people I don’t, I don’t care too, I’ll just move on, like you came. That’s just pain that just another, it’s like, it’s like another arrow in your back. You just, you’re gonna carry that around like Nah, man, just take that arrow out and just gotta fix it. You gotta grieve, you gotta let go. So thank you for that for them tubes and everything for it. And helping my kids. Yeah, helping my kids and my teenagers. I let them express themselves, and I’ll be honest, I’m like, hey, look, if you got to cuss a little bit, don’t get crazy. But express yourself because I want them to know, like, I’m your parent. And I’m your friend to because you can be both, you know, just know your boundaries. But I want you to tell me how you feel. I want to hear everything. You know, I’m saying I want to understand you I want to know how I can help you. So I do, you know, say I do allow that to let them express I do let them you know do things like that. And that helps. It helps. Yeah, they write their own notes and stuff like that. And I got the little one she listened to affirmation for kids on YouTube every morning. Yeah, she just she so she the happy person. She don’t She’s sick. So she I love myself. I only know I only love me. I love Oh, oh, okay, your love. Okay, you take any real deep Yes, you know I only love but does she know her were so that’s that’s good. And I love when she do that. And even when we walk to school as you I love myself I’m brave and beautiful and smart. And just telling my kids that you are you are in control of your day. So when you get up you structure your day because the moment you don’t do that and you walk out this door and somebody say something to you now your structure is all over the place. You’re not who you need to be that day. No, you get up and looking at mirror like hey, look, you don’t want I love you You look good. You look handsome. You look beautiful. You cute you file again, this is I’m gonna one I’m gonna be this I’m not a you don’t think when you leave the door you are you like this and anything that’s negative that’s trying to break through that barrier, it’s gonna be hard to because you already solidify your your worth, you know who you are. So anybody say something negative. Okay, cool. You think that I know who I am. I’m good. Just don’t touch me. But we good you know his hand like, have a great day understand you. Because we don’t have to battle with everybody. Some people and I ain’t worth it. They don’t even understand their worth. They don’t know what’s going on all they didn’t structure their day, they upset they energy everywhere. Let them be that get away from the situation and still carry on with your day because people are going to think what they want. People want to say what they want. But as long as you know who you are and what your purpose is, and you walk in that purpose. You will be just fine no matter what. And I’ll tell people as I said, I just want to be happy no matter what and people say that but you have to understand this when you say I want to be happy no matter what that means you have to be happy during divorce, separation, losing someone somebody firing you if the kids is you know, especially for moms and stuff like kids you know, no home and audit things get crazy bills, you have to be careful what you ask for because things happen. Keep your structure keep your energy is one to be okay. You will figure it out and some things are meant to happen let it happen. The unknown is not as scary as you think. You know, we learn in it because we so we so comfortable with okay, everything this is nice and soon as some get dark and we’re gonna hold on I don’t like change. Things are changing. I don’t like that. I don’t like how we don’t like that, you know? But it’s okay. It’s okay. So thank you for for teaching me that. And thank you, you know for like sticking it out with me and still being accessible today. I just been like crazy busy. And I definitely still want to send you a handbag. But you’re on my list. Yeah, yeah. But I just been crazy busy. I’m just everywhere. I’ve been like California back and you know, I’m just like this. But yeah, yeah, I do appreciate you a lot.
Victoria Volk 39:18
And I love hearing the ripples of that work that you did. It’s an it continues and that to us? Yeah, just like there’s ripples in grief. There’s ripples and healing, too. So thanks. Thank you for sharing.
Quandell Wright 39:33
Yeah, we human. It’s okay.
Victoria Volk 39:34
I could seriously be your future TED talk.
Quandell Wright 39:38
I know. Right.
Victoria Volk 39:40
Thank you for that riff. I absolutely love it. Yeah,
Quandell Wright 39:43
Yeah. You definitely belong on TED talk. I can’t wait.
Victoria Volk 39:46
Tell you. That whole that whole riff you just did. Yeah,
Quandell Wright 39:50
I’m actually done. I’m actually doing I had a I had a meeting with the Detroit Pistons so I am doing a charity basketball game July. We live from two to 5:30pm at the Detroit Pistons practice facility, that’s somewhere like MIG tau, I would love to see you every station, if you would like to come, I can send you like a pass or something like that. I’m, I’m doing like a panel, I’m doing a panel from like three to four. And then we joined the basketball game. So I want to race. This is actually though this might actually work out. So I’ve been looking for someone that practices like that, you know, that’s in the mental health field that actually put in the work to actually help people. So my minimum, I’m trying to donate $500 to that organization, and $500 or organization for, for stop for stop the violence type of you know, program. So I do have that. I do love what you are doing. Um, so if we can somehow like donate that money to you. So you can carry on with what you’re doing? I would love to do that. So
Victoria Volk 41:04
You could actually sponsor someone for a Grief Recovery Program?
Quandell Wright 41:09
Yeah, that would be cool. That’d be cool. But I would love to donate that money to you. So you can continue your practice in what you’re doing. Because you’re like, so, so helpful. And we were sitting here and I’m like, I don’t know anyone would and how I was thinking about it. I’m like, Who is? Where are the nonprofit organization like mental health by organizations, I couldn’t think of none. And I was just like, You know what, we have figured it out. So I’m talking to you. And it’s exactly what you do, like you actually put in the work, you actually help people. So if we can raise the $500, I would love to give that check to you. And you can use that money to get books, or just maybe that might pay for somebody section, or whatever the case might be. I would love to donate to you. So we do we got a pitch deck, I think it should be completed today. You can send me your logo, we can put it in a pitch deck and your information. Let me see information like your company, when it started, what you do, we put into a pitch deck. And if you have like a paper or whatever it might be, we could put that in there too. So people could donate throughout the last the next couple of months. You know when we send the pitch deck out, and we will send you the pitch deck today. So you can send out to share it. Yeah, you can share it, and people could donate to you or whatever. And then we raised the money. Hopefully we do. But we raised the money. And we can give you you know, we can give me a check to you on top of whatever you got for your donations. We don’t have nothing to do with that. But I would just love to help you out with your journey as well. Because you helped me out a lot. So yeah, that’ll work. Yeah, so July 11. If you can’t come, it’d be great.
Victoria Volk 42:57
It would be amazing.
Quandell Wright 42:59
It’d be beautiful for you to come. I sent you two passes. Have you wanted to kids or someone? I would love to come and check it out. Have a great time. You definitely can. And we can show you around Detroit, you kind of get you know, yeah. Yeah. Beautiful downtown is beautiful. Like Dan Gilbert, just, he just reinvented everything. He just took over everything and made it beautiful. So
Victoria Volk 43:20
For me, it’s nice.
Quandell Wright 43:23
It’s nice. So yeah, definitely keep in touch. And I do have assistant and she is like very, very great. Because I respond very late because I got 1000 People call me inbox me and they want stuff so but I do have a great assistant. So I’ll definitely give you her information and you if whatever link that you have like your pay pal, if you GoFundMe, whatever link you want to create the center with a bio we want to start promoting on Instagram so people could donate to you and your work and we still want to you know, write you a check on top of whatever you earn so they can help you out. So it was well.
Victoria Volk 44:00
You’re amazing. And all the way.
Quandell Wright 44:02
You’re amazing. You’re amazing. Yeah,
Victoria Volk 44:06
I’m so glad we reconnected again and that you are my first Where are they now episode and I saw something in you back in October 2020 I saw something in you and I was spot on. I was spying on you. So thank you. That’s awesome to see you thrive. So thank you for sharing your time with me today. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Quandell Wright 44:29
Just be you be us everybody that’s listening is willing to be watching us be you love you care for you. You know learn you learn who you are walking your purpose and brief and it’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay, so we’re going to be fine. Yeah, we’re gonna be fine. So
Victoria Volk 44:49
Beautiful. Message. Thank you so much. Thank you. I will put all the links to how people can reach out to you how you prefer they reach out to you Okay, in the shownotes and where can people find you now? Social media and stuff?
Quandell Wright 45:05
Oh, yeah that’s the ground. The QX William Palmer. Facebook Quandell H Wright For Name, Email. That’s as long but it’s cute right at yeah [email protected]. So people can email me there find me on Facebook Quandell H Wright, W R I G H T or Instagram to QX William Palmer. So, I do look at my DMs I do take a day and be like, Okay, let me see what’s going on. So I do it. I do respond to people and people get very, very excited. And I’d be like, okay, hold on. I’m just a regular person. But they but you responded to me. Oh my god. So it’s, it’s nice. I love that though. I really do. I love making people really, really happy. And that’s really cool. I love it. The sweet.
Victoria Volk 45:54
Humble Q. Yeah, Humble Q. I love it. So I will put the links for all that in the show notes. And in the meantime, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
