Addiction, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast |
Dru Jaeger + Victoria | The Grief + Alcohol Club
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s episode is a collaboration with my friend, Dru Jaeger, co-founder of Club Soda and author of How to Be a Mindful Drinker: Cut Down, Take a Break, or Quit.
Dru woke up one morning a happy child with two parents and went to bed that night without a mother. She died suddenly and unexpectedly of a massive brain hemorrhage. Within six months, his father would relocate their family to another country.
Like many of us, Dru learned that you suppress it, distract yourself, keep yourself busy, and pretend that the trauma did not happen to you when it comes to grief.
Dru shares how his grief changed and manifested over the years. Also, how only in the last several years has he found peace within where he’s learned to live with himself (and his grief) well.
Enjoy this week’s episode as we both share how parent loss in childhood shaped our adult lives, particularly our relationships with alcohol, and learn if alcohol has become a way for you to cope with your grief. And, to be clear, if you think this episode isn’t for you, you don’t have to be a daily drinker for alcohol to be a “problem-solving band-aid” in your life.
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief, free resources are available HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever in Advanced Grief Recovery Methods Specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate grievers and non grievers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours. In this platform, grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. Hey, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you’re listening from. I’m your host, Victoria Volk, and this is another episode of grieving voices. And I’m thrilled to share this episode because it only happened because I had an idea. And I followed through with the inspired idea by sending an email and reaching out. And this episode is collaboration with Dru from joinclubsoda.com Dru’s professional background is as a writer and researcher. And along the way, he is trained as a facilitator, coach, NLP practitioner and mindfulness teacher, day to day and club soda Dru designs and delivers courses and workshops to help people cut down, take a break from alcohol or stop drinking for good. He also writes regularly about alcohol and mindful drinking, and hosts the club soda podcast, do now drinks rarely. And as a passionate advocate for a world in which people drink more mindfully and live well. Club Soda is a community for people who want to either give up alcohol or drinking, cut back, or just really changed their relationship with alcohol. It’s a very supportive community. And I was thrilled when I got a yes to do this. And we recorded and it was an amazing recording. I hope you enjoy it. And we do plan to do this again. So if there is something about this episode that you would like us to dig deeper into as in terms of grief and alcohol and the topics that come up during the conversation, please reach out either to dru@joinclubssoda or myself at [email protected]. And we’ll make it happen. Because I think we are both enthusiastically excited about, I don’t know, enthusiastically excited, I think we’re both really excited to have this conversation, and more importantly, to share it and to share what we both have learned over the years about alcohol and our relationship to it because it really truly is indeed a relationship. And so enjoy this episode. And if it helps you, please share it with someone else who may be struggling with their relationship with alcohol. Or leave a review for Dru and myself on both of our podcasts because it is on their podcast as well. And I will put the link in the show notes if you would like to leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and enjoy.
Dru Jaeger 3:37
We thought it’d be good for myself and Victoria to share a bit about our own experiences of alcohol and grief and how those two stories have been woven together through our lives. And then I’ve got some questions for Victoria, which will be gonna be I hopeful, super useful for people listening to the club soda podcast, and then you’ve got some questions for me. So that’s where we go. And I guess for me, I guess one of the things that I was reflecting on as I came to preparing for this, is that when I was drinking and my most heavily through my 30s I don’t think I would ever have reflected that that was in any way connected to my experiences of childhood loss. But looking back at it now that is such an unavoidable conclusion. But I wonder how it ever is that I could have imagined I was doing anything else is such a glaring thing for me now. recognizing all of these ways in which I wanted to transcend my experience escape the emotional pressure that I felt inside me feeling this sense of disconnection of not belonging, all of these different things which are going on when I was drinking and taking a lot of drugs, which I partied really hard in my 30s A lot of what was going on then. I wouldn’t couldn’t have articulated it that way, but it really was about My experience of childhood loss my mum died when I was nine years old, she died very suddenly, I, she died of a massive brain hemorrhage. And I literally woke up one morning as a nine year old, and have a mother and went to bed that night and didn’t. And, you know, it utterly pulled my life apart, not just in the experience of grief, and that gaping void in my life that suddenly opened up. But actually in all the consequences of what happened. As a result of that, within the course of about six months, my family had relocated, I’d lost contact with my childhood friends, I was living in a different country. And so many of the messages that I heard as a nine year old, this is almost 40 years ago, but so many messages that I heard as a nine year old, were, you just have to kind of grin and bear it and get through the next few days. And it’s all going to be fine. And I was taught very much a model of dealing with grief, which is that you suppress it, you put it away somewhere else, you might occasionally be upset, but you distract yourself, you keep yourself busy. And you throw yourself into this new exciting life that you have. And we pretend that this traumatic experience that you’ve been through, is not something which happened to you at all. And I, you know, I can only have the life that I have, you know, I can’t, one of the things that I want to talk to you about is this urge that I have to fix my grief. But of course, I can’t go back, you know, I can’t change the experiences that I had as a nine year old, I can learn to live better with them. And I can learn to be compassionate and forgiving as far as I’m able to the other people who were implicated in that story. I tell you a little story about how that’s come up recently, but But you know, I can I can, I can do the work now to live as well as I can. But one of the things which I am really very aware of now in my in my approaching life forces, but I will say that quite yet. No, really, I’m 48, late 40s is that this story of loss is always going to be with me. I, you know, there isn’t a moment in my life that’s going to come where I will ever put this behind me where it will ever stop being an issue. And I guess if I were thinking about the loss that I carry, it’s not like that raw, confused, terrible, painful experience that I went through as a nine year old. It’s very different now. But it doesn’t go away, you know, my life has grown and expanded around it, you know, I’m able to contextualize it, I’m able to see the effect that grief has had on me and continues to have on me, but it never goes away. It’s like this
Dru Jaeger 8:20
Thing that I carry with me all of the time. And sometimes, you know, we have this conversation on the on the on our podcast, just before Christmas coming up to Christmas, inevitably, I will cry every Christmas at some point. Because I miss my mom. You know, I have been doing that every year for the past decades, I will continue to do that until I’m in my 70s Hopefully eight years, you know, however long I live, that experience will always be with me. There are there are moments still when grief surprises me when it comes out of nowhere when I find myself crying for no particular reason and a very obvious reason. And it all gets mixed up together. So you know, I I feel like I’m somebody who is now almost 40 years on finally learning at some level to live with myself and this experience that I had, and all of the impacts of it. And yet one of the ways in which I tried to effectively deal with this experience and all of the things that flowed from it in my 30s was that I threw myself into living life as hard as I could, you know if there was an experience of life that I could get, I was going to throw myself at it. I want it to consume all of the alcohol and take all of the drugs and become a person other than myself and I tried really hard and I had you know I had actually had an amazing time. I’m not gonna deny that I do had, I had I had an extraordinary period of my life, I made some great friends, I lost some friends, I, you know, it was a it was a transformative experience for me. But in the end, it ended up doing more damage than I was able to sustain. And, you know, my abiding memory by the time I got to my early 40s, my abiding memory of my 40th birthday is not the amazing party that I put together and all of the people from different parts of my life that came to celebrate with me, it was being on my own, late at night, hugging a toilet, and formatting because that’s where my drinking had led me to. And I didn’t know how else to be with and celebrate with all of these people who were important to me apart from getting out of my face on alcohol. So yeah, and so over the past, I guess, decade, I’ve been in this journey of a learning to live well with myself and learning to live with my mental health and all of the impacts of grief and that have had, and trauma that I continue to carry. But recognizing alcohol and drugs on solving these problems for me, I’ve tried, I tried, you know, I tried escaping into religion in my 20s, I tried escaping into alcohol and drugs in my 30s These solutions are going to in the end cause me more damage than they are going to solve for me. And I need to find better ways to live. And so for me, that’s meant that I’ve really kind of over the past few years pretty fundamentally reshaped my relationship with alcohol. I do drink, but vanishingly rarely. And now my relationship with alcohol is actually thinking does this drink and value to life, as opposed to what problem is this drink going to solve for me. And that has been such a fundamental shift that I’m, I’m basically alcohol free by default, most of the time. But that’s been really important, because actually, it’s given me space, and build some emotional resilience. And it’s let me learn to approach the difficult feelings that I carry around in a more respectful way. I guess I’m not, you know, pouring fuel on them. I’m listening to that sadness. And I’m listening to that loss. And I’m, hopefully in a better relationship with my nine year old self, and his experiences of pain than I have been ever in my life. So far. That’s really where I am on this whole journey of alcohol and grief. How are you?
Victoria Volk 12:47
Wow, I thank you so much for sharing that I saw me writing as you were speaking not to. I was really, truly listening. But there are so many things that I want to circle back to. And I will. In a nutshell, my experience was my dad died when I was eight. But he was sick for two years, almost 16 months, but he was given two to three months to live. But he lived for almost 16 months. But he was gone much of that time because he was doctoring, and it was like three hours away to the VA hospital. And so I was bounced around from house to house between age of six and eight until he passed away. And it really, you know, that year that passed away, it was really traumatic, not just losing my father, but also my sister who was like a second mom to me, join the Air Force. She graduated from high school two months later, and she was gone. So I lost her. And when my dad passed away, eventually we lost. I lost relationship with all of his family. So I not only lost my dad, but I lost an entire family. I grew up in a very, I mean, it was just my brother, my mom and myself, and then she remarried about two years later. And it wasn’t a healthy relationship. And so I was surrounded by arguing and, and alcohol was very much a part of our home. And that led me to, you know, and my brother was five years older than me, so I kind of grew up by myself and a lot of ways because he was doing his own thing. He was a teenager. And by the time I was while in high school, I really I drank and I went to parties and things but it wasn’t I almost knew like right from wrong like I had still this sense of I don’t you know I didn’t want to
Victoria Volk 14:52
I had it was like a consciously was choosing to not go down this path that I saw other people in my life going down due to other reasons and other circumstances in their life, by the time I was 21, I, on my 21st birthday, I hadn’t even been to a bar didn’t even go to a bar. And it wasn’t until a friend, she’s like, you’ve never been to a bar. And I said no. And but a lot of loss happened in the meantime, too. I ended up joining the military. And when I was gone at my training, my mom sold her house, she got a divorce. And so when I came back from my training, my childhood home was essentially not my home anymore, I had nowhere to go, but to this new city where I knew no one, and to live with my mom. And so that was a huge transition, partially why I hadn’t been to a bar, because I didn’t know anybody. But that one ask. And starting to go to the bar is what really set me up for a downward spiral. And I knew every drink special every night of the week, and my license was nearly suspended. I had so many fender benders and speeding tickets, I should have been fired from my job. I can’t believe they didn’t fire me, they probably saw that I was kind of a train wreck. And I had been taught to but no one was holding me accountable or responsible. And I certainly wasn’t doing that for myself. But by the grace of God, they didn’t. But maybe that would have snapped me out of my mess sooner, I don’t know. But I ended up getting myself in a lot of not a lot of but several dangerous situations, being a female, and going to bars and, you know, meeting people that I didn’t know. And it was really a really transformative time for me, and not a good way. And it’s what really changed was that I ended up toxic relationship that kind of set me on a downward spiral until my husband came into the picture. And we had been friends for seven years before we even started dating. But he just I don’t know, he was like the knight in shining armor, I suppose. And that’s really what turned my life around in the in that in that timeframe. And so, my drinking Eska escapade, although it was a good year and a half, I really made up for lost time during that time. But alcohol didn’t just go away. And it didn’t really creep in again, until I became a parent. Until I had three kids in four years. My husband was gone a lot. He commuted for his job. And so he’d be gone, sometimes a week at a time. And I was raising these kids and isolated because we had moved and I didn’t really have any friends. And then I started to meet people on things. And it was through alcohol, how I met people. And that’s how bonds kind of formed. And so that’s when alcohol became this social, a way for me to come out of myself, because I didn’t feel comfortable with myself in my own skin. And so to feel like I would fit in or to feel like I was fun. I thought I needed to drink. And so that’s really, and I found myself just like you in front of the toilet many times, my kids becoming teenagers and seeing their mom and and feeling the shame and the guilt around that.
Victoria Volk 18:43
We know what kind of example was I setting for my kids. And I don’t believe that you have to be a daily drinker to have a problem with alcohol. If alcohol is causing you to become someone you’re not because you’re not comfortable with who you are. Or you’re drinking to avoid feeling a certain way or to avoid addressing certain emotions, then it’s a problem. Whether it’s binge drinking on the weekends, or binge drinking on a Wednesday night and a Tuesday night or whatever it is, or you’re having four drinks every single day. If it’s a problem, it’s not going to look the same for everybody, I don’t believe and so I had a bender one night and I woke up the next day feeling like I always did like crap. And I would I would get sick every time it didn’t matter what I drank or how much I just would get sick. And I’d be a pile of crap for a day or two and useless to my family and to myself and and finally I just woke up that next day and there was a conversation I’d had or someone had shared something with me they were kind of going through the own thing with alcohol On this shirt, you know, why do I need this? And that one question she posed, I asked myself, and I didn’t have a good answer. Why do I need? Why do I think I need this? And that day, I decided I’m done and done, cold turkey. And I applied what I knew in Grief Recovery, what I learned the tools, and I applied that to my relationship with alcohol. And it really helped me sustain my sobriety for 638 days, I think it was, until a weekend with friends, I consciously decided I was going to share in a toast. And I did drink that weekend. And then I felt like it was something that I had control of, like, I decided this, it’s not that I alcohol decided this for me, like, I didn’t feel like I had to do it. But boy, for two, it took about two weeks. And then it really hit me like, What did I do? What did I do? There I go again, you know, and then the guilt and the shame. And my kids Oh, I thought you quit drinking? And people would say I thought you quit drinking? And? And to answer that question. You know, it was really, it still really takes me aback. And I don’t know how to answer it. Sometimes, but ever since then it’s really become this. It really is about self discovery. Like every time I drink or every time I go into a situation where there’s going to be drinking, I’m having this dialogue in my head. If people could see my, my thought bubbles above my head, as I’m contemplating like, my relationship with alcohol and, for example, met with someone not that long ago and a family member and you know, just in my daughter, was there my youngest. And she’s like, well, let me buy you a birthday drink. It was my birthday. And I’m like, Yeah, I suppose. And I thought, I’m going to have a pop. And then I said, Well, are you going to have something? And she said, Yeah, I’ll get my, my usual or whatever. And she doesn’t drink that often. But and then I get up to the counter, and I’m ordering. And I’m like, I even told her a pop. I said what kind of pop in and then I changed my mind. But this dialogue is continuing in my head, like, Should I do it? Should I not do it? Like, what does this say about me? What does this say about you know, like, it was like, ridiculous like that I was torturing myself in this way. And I just thought, you know what, she’s buying me a birthday drink, it’s my birthday. I can drink, have a drink with my family member, and the world isn’t going to collapse around me, I am not a lesser person because of it. But I am consciously choosing to make this decision right now in this moment to share in a drink with my family member. And I’m gonna let that be okay.
Victoria Volk 23:10
And it’s just this continuous evolve of in conversation and dialogue with yourself to, to because I don’t want to go back to that to what that was right. And I’ve been in situations since you know, where I’m going out with friends and things and, and I have my limit now. Like, this is my limit. And I keep track I like you know, save the tabs, and I’m keeping track and I don’t want to lose my sense of agency. Because when I lose my sense of agency, it’s not me anymore. It’s not me anymore. And I want to be okay with me. And I want to show the world me, not who I am when I have five, six or seven. And I’m embarrassing myself and they’re getting a good laugh. Or I’m obnoxious or I’m funny, I get really funny, but sometimes stupid funny. You know, it’s it really is we become a different character. And I think we just need to get really comfortable with the character of of who we are. First and foremost. And so that’s been quite the journey for me. Yeah, that’s been kind of my experience with alcohol.
Dru Jaeger 24:31
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Likewise, I’ve scribbled some things down, which I wanted to come back to. One of the things which struck me and it’s something which I’ve reflected on is how your how the experience of childhood loss isn’t just about the loss of that individual, but about all of the subsequent consequent loss of family and that feeling of family that He comes along with it. And some of that being, you know, natural change a sibling going away to college or going away to start a job somewhere else. But you know, life continues to change. But that, when that’s all framed from a childhood experience of I’ve, I’ve, I’ve lost something and I can’t control this, you do end up with a feeling that your family is falling apart around you. And then that sense of isolation that comes from that I’m the only person in this experience. But the thing that struck me so much about your experience of, of drinking and meeting people, my experience in my early 30s, of going out in London, and partying was this was all about rebuilding a sense of connection and wanting to feel a sense of belonging. And I really wrestled with the extent to when I continue to think about this, the extent to which my experience of childhood loss makes me different. I feel like I’m an outsider, you know, I looked in envy, people in their 40s Complaining about both of their parents. I’m like, I wish I had two parents to complain about only have one, drink is lovely. But you know, I, I feel different, I continue to hold that, that sense of feeling different, feeling isolated, feeling outside. And actually then, yeah, drinking became a way to create community and a sense of belonging around myself. And I, you know, even in this conversation, I’m beginning to see how much that has driven from this kind of core sense of isolation that I carried from my experience as a nine year old.
Victoria Volk 26:41
Now, what happens though, and I even wrote this down is that alcohol is then also very isolating. It is because within ourselves, right within ourselves, like we isolate, it’s, it becomes this block to intimacy. Because you can’t become have intimate conversations, and you can’t have deep content. I mean, you could, but they’re not going to be rich, and and you’re not going to remember them. Right? It becomes this block to enter intimacy. So it’s a false sense of community, I think, in a lot of ways.
Dru Jaeger 27:15
Yeah. I mean, I do say this to people, you know, when you think about alcohols, physiological effects on you, you know, the rush of warmth to your face, the feeling of looseness in your body, perhaps you kind of lean in more to others, you know, you get a bit louder, you get a bit, one of these kinds of things. Actually, our experience of drinking feels quite a lot like love, it’s hardly surprising that it gets wrapped up in the way that we create relationships, because many of the feelings that it gives us are exactly the feelings of intimacy that we want with others. But you’re absolutely right. You know, certainly, you know, that experience of hugging the toilet late at night, or even late earlier in the evening. You know, I noticed this now, when I’m out with people, and I’m not drinking, and they are, I begin to notice two or three drinks in, but conversations keep going around in circles. And I’m like, Tell me Tell me again, you told me like literally half an hour ago, but it’s still important to you. So I’ll listen once again. But you know, that kind of sense of I like my social connection is closing in on itself, and I am getting stuck. And I lose my sense of empathy. For others. I don’t, I’m not present for other people. I’m not really hearing them. I’m not building this conversation in a good way. I’m just repeating these little patterns over and over again to myself until I pass out. How is that building a sense of belonging? I mean, I thought that it was but you know, experience 10 years on, I see that it really doesn’t work that way.
Victoria Volk 28:47
Well, and again, it just highlights for people listening to. So when you meet someone in a bar, and you’re both intoxicated, and you think you’ve fallen in love. That’s why, you know, when the alcohol isn’t in the equation, oh, it’s really different than like different people. Right? Like it’s a different situation and different experience, because that level there is it’s a false sense of intimacy.
Dru Jaeger 29:14
Yeah. How do you find it now? If you are in social settings, and you are not drinking alcohol, how do you find the business of making connection and getting that sense of belonging with others.
Victoria Volk 29:27
I miss the connection. I miss it. I miss, you know, I still have fun, I can dance the night away and I don’t have to drink and that’s been many times but I find that there isn’t this sense of, of true connection, right of like you said, it’s like these looping conversations and and yeah, it doesn’t move. It doesn’t progress relationship forward. So if that’s the only time you’re with those people You know, it really is, again, false intimacy, in friendships and marriage if alcohol is a huge part of your marriage, you know, it’s Yeah, I have a bottle of wine in my fridge, I bought a bottle wine for New Year’s. And to for HUD, my husband and I to share and I’ve poured half a glass, the bottle is still in there. That’s how I know that I’ve transformed my relationship with alcohol because that thing would have been gone that night.
Dru Jaeger 30:38
Yeah, my my mid 30s Drinking self would be in utter wonder, the fact that somebody can keep an eye local bottle of wine in their house overnight. How and why would you do that? That seems the only
Victoria Volk 30:56
It’s possible. And what we were talking about before and I wanted to, this is what I want to circle back to is I want to ask you, and I want to get back to your story, too. But what are your thoughts on this all or nothing approach to being in a, you know, addiction recovery, like recovering in addiction and alcohol? And I don’t want to minimize or dismiss that people truly do lose their lives due to alcoholism. But yeah, what can you share? For my listeners, and yours, too, I suppose you know, your thoughts on that, because it’s come to my attention recently. And just really, I feel like it’s doing a disservice to a lot of people.
Dru Jaeger 31:39
Yeah, I suppose where I’d want to start is by being clear about a few things. One is, addiction is real. It is possible to find yourself in a compulsive out of control relationship with a substance which becomes all consuming to the point that you don’t know how to do anything else. Apart from Pursue your relationship with that substance. That’s a real phenomenon. It is also, however, a really complex phenomenon. It has my logical components, it’s got social components, it’s got psychological components, it’s a whole mixture of different things. It’s not one thing, and removing the substance doesn’t solve the problem. You know, if you are the kind of person who is has a compulsive relationship towards alcohol, it’s just happened for alcohol got in the way, when you were bringing all of those life challenges to the world. And alcohol helps solve some of those for you in a way which has got really messy and difficult and complicated. You found alcohol, another person might have found cocaine, or meth, or compulsive shopping, or dangerous compulsive sex or losing themselves in Facebook for days on end, or intensive gaming, there are all sorts of behaviors that we adopt as ways of soothing ourselves as well as a way to think better about themselves. For some of us, we’ve ended up wrestling with alcohol. Now, it’s important to say that alcohol has some properties, which means that we can become physically dependent on alcohol, alcohol withdrawal symptoms are unpleasant, at best, actively dangerous at worst. Alcohol is the only substance that can kill us. As we withdraw from it, you know, many other substances are deeply unpleasant to withdrawal from alcohol withdrawal can be fatal. If we experience fear, alcohol withdrawal symptoms. It’s really important that people don’t stop drinking suddenly, without medical support, if they think they may be dependent on alcohol physically dependent. So it’s got these two components. We’ve got this all this psychological stuff with all this physical stuff. And it is complicated. One of the other things that we know, though, and we know this from the research, is that the story that we’ve heard, that once you’re in that relationship with alcohol, the only thing that you can safely do is to stop forever. What we actually know is that that isn’t true. It’s a really it is a solution. For some people, I need to be completely clear about that there will be some people, particularly if you have a history of severe mental ill health. If you have been significantly physically dependent on alcohol, and have needed support to stop, it’s probably safest that you just don’t drink. You can build a very happy life that doesn’t center on alcohol at all, where you just push it out of the picture, but that’s not going to be true for everyone. There are very few long term studies about what happens to people’s drinking habits over time. But the one which I think is really interesting in this regard, it’s called the Birmingham untreated heavy drinkers. As project, it’s a bit of research that was conducted in the UK in the early 2000s, where basically, a group of 500 people who were drinking very heavily were followed for a decade untreated, with no intervention, just to see what happened. At the end of those 10 years, they had kept in touch with about 250 people. And they found something really interesting. So about 70% of those people were still drinking at dangerous and damaging levels. That should be unsurprising, right? People who are wrestling with alcohol, a decade on are still going to be in that same position. 10% of people had found their ways, just through their own effort to being completely alcohol free, they had decided that life beyond alcohol was going to work for them, and they’d stopped drinking completely 20% of those people were drinking within safe limits 20%, they were twice as likely to find a way to moderation than they were to complete abstinence. And the reality is that that is if that’s true, just through the natural progression of our relationship with alcohol, it puts puts paid to a couple of myths. One is that alcoholism is progressive, that it only gets worse, we know that that’s not true for 30% of that group, they found a way a decade on to find a relationship where alcohol was only marginally present or wasn’t present at all. It didn’t necessarily get worse. But it also gets paid to the idea that abstinence is the only answer 20% of those people have found a way to moderate consumption of alcohol with no intervention and no support at all. That’s where they ended up. So I think that’s a really, I think that’s really hopeful for people actually, because one of the things I know from my work with individuals is that people can become overwhelmed by two things. One is the idea that I can never drink. And the idea is that I can never drink again, at all forever, the forever thing and the not at all things can be really scary for people. Now, it might be that that is the right thing for you, and you should push towards that. But it also might not be the right thing for you. I’m a real believer in helping people find a relationship with alcohol, that works for them. Not what anyone else says is the right thing to do. You know, so if your relationship with alcohol looks like having an occasional celebratory toast, because a member of your family wants to buy you a drink and include you in that moment. And you can do that from a place of conscious intention. And that isn’t going to then lead into a spiral and continuing to drink. I think, go for it. You know, you may have had a troubled relationship with this substance in the past, but your past doesn’t have to define your future. You know, that’s as much as we know, from the world of grief as anything else, you know, I have these experiences that lead me to this moment, I can begin to make conscious decisions about how my life plays out from this point. So yeah, does that answer the question? Now? I can go on on this subject for literally hours, so probably best to cut me off.
Victoria Volk 38:10
No, I know, I it was perfect. I absolutely love that. And, you know, I think to what I guess what I’m wondering too is, or what I want to share too is how the grief evolved for both of us. Right? And how we, because I think childhood grief, obviously, as a child, and you experienced grief or trauma because I was also molested after my father passed away. It wasn’t just that one grief experience. And then, you know, your life becomes a train wreck later, it’s you, I’m assuming to you had many grief experiences along the way, because grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative and just what you were saying how so many of us resort to these behaviors to feel better. We call them in Grief Recovery to call them disturbs short term energy relieving behaviors. So whether it is shopping or gambling or, or alcohol. We find ourselves trying to replace something within us with that thing, so that we can feel better. Yeah, and I know what’s true for me is you can look back, right because I’m I’m in my early 40s It’s I’m 35 years out from my loss, but it you can look back and see how that grief evolves with you over through the years and over time. It’s it is something that you take with you. It’s not something you just put in a shoe box and put it on the shelf and forget about it. You can try you can try. And so my question for you is what what was that like to unpack all of that grief in that moment of awareness that you had what when was that and what what led to that Out of all this is my grief that’s really at the heart of all of this.
Dru Jaeger 40:05
I don’t think that has been one moment. I think it’s been an evolving conversation with myself. I remember, I was reflecting on this earlier, I remember this moment when I was around 18 years old, and I suddenly realized that I had been alive for longer. Without my mom that I had been with my mom, that was a moment for me. You know, there was a moment when I became the age that she was when she died. There was an age when my son turned nine years old. You know, these big kind of transitional life moments, I’m living through one of those right now. Actually, my, my dad, who’s in his late 70s, is downsizing from big house into a one bedroom apartment. Just really good for him. It’s exactly what he needs. new lease of life, you know, big house has gone out of control. But one of the things that’s come up through that is, I came across in helping him clear out, I came across a couple of drawers of my mom’s belongings, things that she’d held on to I found my weight record, from my first year of life. Whether health visitor wrote down, I was a big baby, write down how big I was, you know, her jewelry box, her little collection of clay figurines, even her wedding dress and veil, these belongings left behind. And I had this conversation with my dad. And I asked him about these things, you know, we had a conversation, and I said to him, you put these away because you didn’t know what to do with them. Did anyone know? I didn’t know. But I didn’t want to throw them away. And you know, so now, that’s an active problem that I have now inherited, you know, the, there are these belongings, there are these things which belong to my mom, which are, you know, tangible connections with her life. And now, what do I do with them? You know, how do I how do I honor these keepsakes? How do I you know, it feels like, you know, bits of a shipwreck washing up on the shore of my life. And now my job is what do I make of this, you know, I don’t want it to drift back into the sea and be forgotten, I want to make something of, of these things which have come to me, one of the things which has come to me is actually all of the letters of condolence that my dad received in the wake of my mom’s death. And that feels like the most extraordinary gift because I’m in a kind of a historical way, I’ve now got all of this third party evidence of the kind of person that my mom was, you know, one of the things which I’ve really felt, as this sense of loss through my life, is that when my mom died, I was nine years old, she was a bigger person who gave me hugs and was talking to me and cooked dinner. But she wasn’t a human being yet. So I don’t have any connection with my mom as I would with another adult, I don’t know who she was, you know, I don’t know what she was interested in, or the kinds of things that motivated her or what her personality was like, or all of these kinds of things. And now I’ve got this treasure trove of third party witness of who she was the impact that she had on people and that feels like an extraordinary gift. And then I got other things, what do I do with a wedding dress? You know, I see what I do with a wedding dresses. Now I look at it, I go, my mother was tiny. You know, I in my head, of course, nine year old self, she was an enormous human being. And her shoulder width is less than two thirds of mine, you know, she was a small person, it’s given me this whole new perspective on areas. So as a human so it’s not. It’s there’s not been one moment it’s been it’s an ongoing thing. You know, and, and this business of bringing my mom’s possessions from my dad’s house has been really hard. I’ve cried a lot about this whole situation over the past few months. It’s really difficult, but I’ve also then got to have conversations with my sister to say, look at these things, which I’ve found. What are we going to do now? You know, and that’s been a really good thing, as well
Victoria Volk 44:46
As an open up a dialogue between your father and yourself.
Dru Jaeger 44:50
It has in a way I think it’s I it has in a way you know, he’s never we’re never going to be able to have that conversation, you know, the conversation that I would long to have. I’ve tried, you know, I’ve tried it, it’s never going to happen. But actually, being able to acknowledge this is our shared experience. These are things that you’ve been holding, because you didn’t know what to do with them. And now I can do my best for care for those things. I can talk to you about what I’m doing with these things, you know, that that’s something you know, and I that’s so far, you know, it seems like such a small thing. But it’s such a massive step on from where we have been in our lives of not being able to have that dialogue at all, I’m actually really, I’m actually really grateful for just that little bit of conversation that we’re able to have.
Victoria Volk 45:49
Well, and I imagine too, that your relationship with alcohol has been transformed. And it is what it is today, because had you still been in that in that phase of your life of using alcohol being this big part? You wouldn’t have the same feelings about these things. You may not even want to look at them.
Dru Jaeger 46:10
No, no, absolutely, I wouldn’t have the capacity to do it. I mean, for me, what what absolutely prompted my reflection that I needed to do something about my relationship with substances is that I had an experience at the end of my 30s of significant mental ill health. And in my recovery from that, I suddenly began to realize the extent to which alcohol and drugs didn’t help me, didn’t help me live well didn’t help me live with the complexity of my mental ill health I live with. I think you might politely say a wider range of emotional experience is typical. And, yeah, alcohol and alcohol and drugs, absolutely. Don’t help me be in good relationship with myself and with other people. And when I drink and take drugs, I can act in ways which are actively damaging to myself and to others. And I don’t want to perpetuate that. I want to, I want to learn to be okay with being me, even in those moments when I’m not okay. And so yeah, absolutely. You know, I’ve had long periods of not drinking at all. I do you drink very occasionally. But literally months can go by drinking is not part of my everyday experience at all it is I’ve become, you know, the you know, the grandmother who has a glass of sherry at Christmas, I’ve become her that’s that’s my drinking style. Now, you know, it’s high days and holidays. Anyway, ways which enhance life and add value and meaning to specific situations, not because I love what you said about, it’s not, when it’s not you that makes the choice, but alcohol that makes a choice for you. And that is very much my experience of drinking. Now, it is always me that makes the choice, you know, and it’s always about drinking slowly enough, so I can appreciate and savor this situation not plowing on to the next drink, because I haven’t given myself time to feel the effects of the drink that I’ve already drunk. So now it’s very occasional, you know, my my story that I tell, you know that the moment where I chose to have a drink was actually my son’s 21st birthday. I went to the pub with my son and my brother. And I definitely always said I had two alcohol free drinks. My first round I bought, I bought myself something alcohol free, my brother bought me an alcohol free beer. And then my son on his 21st birthday, offered to buy me a drink. And I had a pint of Chandi. And you know, I had a tiny amount of alcohol. And I got a little bit giggly because I got zero tolerance for alcohol these days. So what happens when he stopped drinking, and we had a really lovely evening and it added value. And it’s something that I, I really treasure that memory, hell, it was really special and special. For me, it was special for him to be able to share that with me, and it made that situation better. And I am not going to feel the made to feel guilty about that. It was a good thing that happened. And I think, particularly for those of us who have a moderate relationship with alcohol. In fact, somebody challenged me about this a little while ago I was I was wrestling with a particular situation in which I drunk and I told them the whole story and they said to me, so what you’re telling me is you had a very clear intention about how you were going to be in a particular situation. You made some decisions and plans in advance about what your alcohol consumption was going to look like. You stuck to that you revise those plans as you were going along. You looked after yourself. You came out on under experience the following morning, having an added value to that situation waking up without a hangover. What on earth do you have to feel guilty about? Yeah, you’re absolutely right. This is a situation these are not stories about things which have gone wrong. These are stories about things which have gone right. And we should celebrate them.
Victoria Volk 50:11
I love that reframe. I love that I just I love how you said, I love that. Yeah, I’m not going to forget that truly, you know, because what can happen is when people say something to you, when they believe that, you know, you, you committed to not drinking and you weren’t going to quit, or you were going to quit cold turkey or whatever it’s been however many days or months or weeks, whatever. And then you have a drink. It’s like, Oh, I thought You thought you quit? And then you feel that guilt or that shame within you. Right? And so I think if it’s just exactly what you said, there is no guilt or shame if it’s coming from a conscious awareness and intention.
Dru Jaeger 50:47
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Can I ask you some grief related questions? Because at least you know, for people listening to this on the club side podcast, as you know, some basics around grief that I think would be really helpful for people to hear, you know, I’ve talked about my own experience, I’m almost 40 years on from the death of my mom. And realizing grief doesn’t get fixed. You know, it’s not I can’t go back in time and make these things which happened to me not have happened, I have to live with the consequences of that loss long term. And I wonder what practical tips and suggestions if you got either for somebody in a situation like mine, when you’re coming into a fresh awareness of loss earlier in life, or if you are in the midst of experiencing grief right now? How can people care for themselves through this?
Victoria Volk 51:45
Well, you bring up a good point in what you said earlier, you have an urge to fix your grief. And my I would challenge that and say was it to fix your grief or to fix yourself? Because often when we feel like we are out of control in our grief, or once we have an awareness, first of all, I think you have to have an awareness that the really deep rooted issue is your grief or trauma from especially in childhood because Childhood Adulthood is childhood reenactments. So if we had, would have developed a relationship, like let me backpedal. If you’ve had grief or trauma as a child, and it was never communicated to you, and it wasn’t emulated for you what healthy grieving was, you will create your own method, you will create your own stories. And you’ll those stories and those patterns and those ways to cope with what you’re feeling. Become your beliefs about how to process or not process your grief. And so we carry those lessons, whether they’re self created, because we’re children, we’re imaginary, right? We have wonderful imaginations, those will follow us into adulthood will will rely on what we know. And what we know. And what we learn often are those things that you said, keep busy and to grieve alone. Don’t talk about your feelings, because it upsets me, right? You know, if you would have talked about your mother around your father, would he have gotten upset well, then you learn why don’t want to upset dads, I’m just not going to talk about it. Because when I do, it makes him sad. And I don’t want to make him sad. And so as children, we just That’s how, why so many children appear to be okay. That’s why so many people say children are resilient, because they see these children and they outwardly, especially if they are the type of child who became like myself a wallflower, who didn’t speak unless spoken to who was very shy, who’s very much in their own head. And that’s just how I’m wired. I’m more in my head. Or you can be a child that really is just craving love and attention and you act out or you, you know, are an angry child. And so you act out. It can look like many different things in children grief. So I think it is first addressing that grief is the issue. And then surrounding yourself with people who are not where you’re at. Because you’re not going to move forward, you’re not going to see that there’s hope. You’re not going to feel like you’re progressing. If you’re surrounding yourself with people who are stuck in their own misery. Neil they say misery loves company. Surround yourself with people who are going to who are proponents of growth who are moving along and in their own personal development and who’ve maybe experienced similar losses as you doesn’t have to be But can bring a different perspective of, of loss from their experience, because I think too, and sharing stories with each other, we learned so much. And it’s a lot of why the reason why I started my podcast, I wanted people to have an understanding that grief just isn’t about death. And the reason why it feels like a shipwreck, and you’re feeling all these feelings is because it was the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. For many years, you didn’t have your mom, it’s things that you wish would have been different, better or more. And so that’s grief. That’s just this reminder of what you didn’t have. And so it’s we kind of feel crazy. As we’re going through all of this as children into adulthood, and it makes you feel grief, just it’s you feel like you’re on a different planet. And especially as children, I think you’ve that’s where you kind of feel different, right? Because I didn’t know anybody who was going through what I was going through, and nobody knew what to say or do. So they did nothing. And so it’s also that indifference that again, I created my own stories. I pees in the ground, he’s, he’s dead. There’s nothing else. Nobody talked to me and said, You know what, you can still talk to him, you can still keep this relationship going in a healthy way and have it feel that connection. It was like, Nope, he’s gone. That’s it.
Dru Jaeger 56:33
Yeah and so powerful that you say that because my experience was, it wasn’t until I was 31 years old. And a very good friend supported me to go to the public records office to see my mother’s death certificate. It wasn’t until I was 31 years old, that I let go of the idea that she was coming back. I mean, I look back at that. And I’m just, yeah, I’m just in wonder that I held on to that hope for as long as I did, I just wasn’t reconciled to a very fundamental fact of death for so long. But what you say about, you know, people not knowing what to do, and doing nothing. I absolutely lived through that, you know, that making up my own stories about what had happened. And I’m gonna make sense of this experience the best way that I can. One of the other things which I reflect on as well as I had experienced couple of years ago, when my father was really unwell, he was admitted to hospital quite suddenly. And I found myself in the car park sitting in my sitting in my van outside, how will end with tears, because I didn’t have another way of expressing my fear of loss. And my fear of grief, it was just it was I was reenacting my nine year old self. And that, you know, actually came as a massive shock to me to go, okay, there is this fundamental core here, of this grief that I’m carrying around that I need to be in better relationship with, I need to understand better I need to find different ways to confront the reality and my fear of death. And do that in ways which helped me live life well, rather than being in retreat from it all the time.
Victoria Volk 58:36
Yeah. I think too, like just looking at, you know, looking when we’re thinking about, like, the practical things of dealing with grief, I think it’s looking at your behaviors, and asking yourself to that question, like, Am I doing this to avoid? Am I doing this to distract myself? Am I doing this? Because, you know, whether it’s keeping busy or replacing the loss, that’s another myth of grief is you know, so often, as children, we’re often taught, you know, if you lose a pet, that’s okay, we’ll go get another one. And you do you get another pet and never really addressing the loss of the first pet. That’s generally speaking, the first loss that many children experience and that’s an opportunity for parents to really show and emulate what it’s how to grieve and that it’s okay to not be okay. You know, you don’t have to mask and say you’re I’m fine you know, that’s so many people say that I’m fine. How are you? I’m fine. And in Grief Recovery, say fine as feelings inside not expressed. And so like you just said you didn’t know how to express it. You didn’t have the tools to know what to do with all of that. And it can be so overwhelming. It just feels so overwhelming. And so like you said to have compassion With yourself to know that it’s not going to happen overnight to be patient with yourself. My personal personal development journey started in 2014. And it was five years of me trying to fix myself. Because I felt so screwed up. And there was nothing wrong with me, there was nothing that it needed to be fixed with me, I was just, I, all of that grief was just coming to the forefront, and I didn’t know what to do with it. You know, we’re taught how to acquire things and people, but we’re not taught what to do when we lose them.
Dru Jaeger 1:00:34
Yeah, Yeah, it’s so interesting to say about that, you know, that spending time trying to fix yourself. And then realizing this is really much more about self acceptance. I mean, to be completely clear in the context of alcohol or changing a relationship with a substance, there are things to learn, you know, learning how to say no learning how to stop learning how to socialize without alcohol, learning how to be in relationship with others. Without alcohol, there are real practical skills to learn. But those skills are not the same as addressing what is the core reasons which are driving me to using alcohol as a way of solving the solving these problems in the first place. There will be a moment and most people will experience this when you’re changing your relationship with alcohol or another substance, where it suddenly gets a lot worse, all of a sudden, because you’re suddenly confronted by some of the reasons that you were drinking in the first place. And being brave at that moment, reaching out for support, beginning to talk about these are the things which have hurt me, this is the pain that I’m carrying, this is the challenge that I’m facing, I would have used alcohol to mask this or numbers or try and make it go away. But I want to find other ways of coping other ways of living? Well, I think as a really, there are these moments of realization where you go, I have to find a different way of being in the world, which doesn’t revolve around a substance which shuts everything up, but actually is about listening to myself and all of my experience and honoring.
Victoria Volk 1:02:07
Yeah, and finding those people that you resonate with that will be in with you through to the end, right? Because you’re gonna lose people along the way. And that’s more grief, right? You’re gonna lose people, and that’s more grief. So you really do need support in that way and being and have the discernment of, it’s not just going to be anybody, like not just anybody can. Because what happens is too, like in relationship, we all bring our stuff to the relationship. And so it’s having that discernment of, you know, maybe surrounding yourself with people who are a little further along than you. They don’t have to be at the end game. But just a little bit further than you.
Dru Jaeger 1:02:52
Yeah, absolutely. It’s one of the reasons that the club soda community exists to be frank is that, you know, creating that space for people to make connections with other people who are going through the process of change, just like they are. And you know, it’s your right doesn’t need to be somebody. In fact, in some ways, somebody who’s 10 years on and has got everything sorted out, is such an unattainable ideal of a person that you may feel no connection with them at all, somebody who’s three or four steps ahead of you who can go, don’t trip over that route in the path, you know, don’t trip over that crack in the pavement, because they’ve just missed it themselves. That person can have real value to your journey of change. I wonder whether we can kind of shift into a last little bit of conversation, which is to talk about how people can connect with us if they want to do that. If they want to carry on these conversations either about grief or about alcohol. Why don’t you go first, Victoria, tell us about where people can connect with you.
Victoria Volk 1:03:53
Yeah, my website has all the links to all the things theunleashedheart.com. My podcast link is on there grieving voices, it’s everywhere podcasts are available. And I have a program called do grief differently. And it’s 12 weeks, working one on one with me and we deep dive into I mean, we didn’t even get into values and how people dishonor their values. And like there’s so so much we could talk about Oh, so much. We could talk for two more hours, I’m sure but because I have a lot to say on the topic of grief. But But yeah, there’s I free resources on there as well. So energy quiz. I’m a Reiki Master. So I also offer Reiki and kind of dabble in several different things, but all in the sphere of grief and energy healing, so
Dru Jaeger 1:04:42
fabulous. From my perspective, joinclubsoda.com is the starting point entry point into Class loader world. We’ve got advice on choosing alcohol free drinks. We’re all about helping you create and sustain change. So we’ve got two in depth programs that can help one called How to Drink mindfully and one called how to stop drinking, they come with lessons that you can work through your own pace. But really importantly, they come with a supportive community of people who are going through the process alongside you, I run weekly face to face workshops. So we talk about all sorts of different things. And then we’re about creating connections. So we’ve got a big Facebook group, we’ve a little telegram group around our courses, we run real world events, festivals, other ways to meet other people who are shifting and changing their relationship with alcohol, whether they are taking a break or cutting down or stopping completely. We are all in this together. That’s a really important thing for us that we don’t do black and white thinking about alcohol. If you are interested in changing a relationship with alcohol, even drinking one drink less, then there is space for you in the club soda community. So yeah, join Club Soda calm, is where all the good stuff happens. Love it. Thank you so much for this conversation, I have learned so much I have so many notes to go and reflect on and so many things to think about, but really, really so insightful and useful. And thank you for sharing your story. So honestly, and for the work that you do, in supporting people to live well with the grief that they carry. It matters so much. I really appreciate it.
Victoria Volk 1:06:16
Likewise, Dru, I think what you’re doing for just the example of it’s not all or nothing for everybody in that there’s a space for people who just want to bring some more mindfulness to their relationship with alcohol and it is it is a relationship. So thank you for the work that you’re doing to
Dru Jaeger 1:06:34
Mutual love first. Shares thanks so much.
Victoria Volk 1:06:39
Thank you, from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast |
Amy Medcalf | Don’t Abandon Me
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Agoraphobia is a mental and behavioral disorder, specifically an anxiety disorder characterized by anxiety symptoms in situations where the person perceives their environment to be unsafe with no easy way to escape. These situations can include open spaces, public transit, shopping centers, or simply being outside their home.
Amy’s mom died suddenly and unexpectedly when she was 11 of a massive heart attack. They were the best of friends a mother and daughter could be. As an only child of a single mom, it was just the two of them – until they weren’t.
Amy found herself living with her Godmother and her Godmother’s family. However, one day a series of events led to Amy being forced to turn over her key to safety and security and trade it for loneliness, homelessness, and insecurity. But that’s not the whole story.
After years of bouncing around from shelter to shelter, Amy would later turn her life around. Without the support of family and only that of a few friends, Amy got her G.E.D., overcame agoraphobia, learned life skills for the first time, and discovered a path of service as a social worker.
Our conversation went to many places, including raising/mentoring/teaching kids, mental health challenges, and the fact that family isn’t always blood – sometimes it’s the people you choose.
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of the unleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Again, if this is your second, third, fourth, fifth time, welcome. And if this is your first time, thank you for being here. today. My guest is Amy Metcalf. She is one of two members in her podcast once upon a nightmare, who deals with her loss and grief through humor and spooky things. She is new to the podcasting world and working her way through to find peace of mind as daily life can be hard. keeping busy helps, and especially when it’s something that you’re interested in, like your podcast. And so let’s thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. So let’s start with your podcast once upon a nightmare, and what was the prompting for you to create that?
Amy Medcalf 1:44
So I’ve always like kind of wanted to do a podcast. It’s been on my mind for the past few years. But it’s like, what do I want to do? Like, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to do things that were part of my job. But like, even then it’s like, you got to kind of back away from that. Because like if you get too much into your job when you’re a social worker and you’re working with like, vulnerable people, it’s it, you tend to kinda burn out really fast. And I didn’t want to kind of like get into something like that. And I really like spooky things like I’m an October Baby. So I hold October and spooky like near and dear to my heart and my friend she is very into spooky stuff as well. I like true crime, I like all that kind of stuff. And it kind of makes me happy in it. It allows me to kind of express myself in a different way than what a lot of people who know me see on a daily kind of so.
Victoria Volk 2:48
I connect with what you’re saying. I actually just shared a news my actually my most recent newsletter was about being in a way addicted to sadness.
Amy Medcalf 2:59
Yeah, it’s very much true. Like I find if I am alone and in my head a little too much i i Can I can make myself I can hurt my own feelings and make myself cry. Like I always felt like you’ve always had things happen to you especially like, with loss and whether that’s with a death or breaking of a relationship, like a friendship or whatever. You tend to kind of get in your head and all this stuff. And it’s like, why do people keep leaving me? Why am I always alone? And why do like, Why does everything always happen to me? And it kind of it’s kind of like a security blanket kind of and it’s like, and a lot of people use that to not get close to people. Right? So I that’s definitely a thing where you can be addicted to sadness. So
Victoria Volk 3:56
Well, because I’ve just been really investigating this for myself, because I love true crime always. Like I was reading Patricia Cornwell. You know, when I was a teenager and love true crime then and my some of my favorite podcasts are true crime podcasts. And so what do you think? In your social worker? Correct? Yeah, yeah. So what do you think it is? Well, I have so many questions now. Because I think for me a little bit of it is that I feel a connection to the sadness that victims feel. Oh, yeah. Survivors, or, you know, connecting to that on the base of loss. Right. Yeah. And, and it can be it’s very traumatic for families. Oh, yeah. Through stuff like that. And but do you think like this connection to other people, and their sadness is kind of what led you and your own personal experience, of course, led you to be a social worker,
Amy Medcalf 4:58
Kind of at the time I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, like, I was on my own at 16. So I didn’t finish high school, I ended up getting my GED. And I was, I had like a really great sense of empathy. And I liked helping people and all other stuff. And especially when it came to like, understanding them on that deeper level, like when they’re going through loss, or they’re going through being on their own for the first time. And they’re very young, and because they got kicked out, or they had a really bad family dynamic and all that stuff. And I think that was part of the reason like part of it. And I didn’t kind of want to leave the town that I was in, and the college in the town. It was very, very small. It was held in our arena. And there was only like a handful of classes. And they just came in with like a social work program. And somebody mentioned it to me. So I applied and I got in and yeah,
Victoria Volk 6:10
It’s amazing. So how many years have you been doing this work?
Amy Medcalf 6:14
So I graduated in 2013. And I started before I graduated, I started working at kind of like a group home setting for adults with autism and anything else, because with autism comes a plethora of other lots of things. Like so yeah, it’s just a lot of the times I worked with, like them. And then I worked in group homes for Teen Girls, which a lot of them I still talk to now that they’re older and everything and they’re and they still come to me for advice. Sometimes they’re like, Amy, like, I need help. And so it’s just like, I really liked working with youth the most I think because that’s where I felt my loss the most. So right now I live in Montreal, I’m not bilingual so I’m nannying. But I also did daycare and all that stuff. So it’s just I didn’t mind the group home, like, the group home was very, like, kept you on the go all the time. So do you miss that work? Sometimes. But they tend to like you tend to get really overworked and like, burned out so fast. And because there’s so much turnover because people don’t realize like how hard it is like, it’s heartbreaking. Like, I remember when the one of the group homes I was working for was getting shut down. And like, the kids were crying, they were upset. They didn’t want to like leave like, probably wasn’t the greatest one. But like, it was better than most so I can like, yeah, yeah, so the kids
Victoria Volk 8:04
Yeah. You know, because that’s their can ask their family, right? For,
Amy Medcalf 8:09
Like, as much as they fight with all the other girls, they love each other in systole kind of way. And they I know a lot of them are still like, talking with each other and like being there for each other in a certain way. And even though they still talk badly about each other sometimes and it’s like, oh my god, girls, like, you guys haven’t changed. But, um, no, they do become a family even with like, the staff, like the ones that stay. And it’s hard when staff leaving, come and go and because they always come and go, and if they’re there for a long time. And it’s like, they feel like they don’t really have a home but like, they tried to make the best of it.
Victoria Volk 8:57
Well, right, because they come from instability. And so when there’s no instability on where they’re stuck. Yeah, because they’re children, and they don’t have really much of a choice unless they try and go out on the streets. Yeah, so was that you? Were you a child in a group home then at 16 or youth group.
Amy Medcalf 9:19
Um, when I was at on my own, I ended up in the shelter, like a youth shelter, on and off and but I like I never really like lived fully on the streets. I couldn’t live without a shower. So I always opted for the for the shelter if I could, and I had some places on my own, but like, it’s hard when you’re 16 and you’re on your own and you don’t have those life skills. Like I’m still paying for some of my lack of life skills. Like I had a credit card at 18 and I didn’t like use it properly and it affected my credit. Although I’m like what Working on that even at 33. Like, if I could go back younger me would do things a lot differently, I would hope. But um, it is yeah, I was more in group home, not group homes, shelters, then group homes. So CHS didn’t come in when I was on my own.
Victoria Volk 10:24
And you speak to the importance of support and having that support system, just learning life skills, because, like, look at the the impact that you’re living now. And I had a little bit of that too, like you, you just if you’re not taught, you just don’t know.
Amy Medcalf 10:40
That’s exactly it. Like, when my mom passed away, I was 11 years old. And I went to go live with my godparents, and my godmother did a lot of my stuff. So she’s like, Yeah, I would clean my room and all that other stuff. But like, a lot of the time, she would clean my room, she would do my laundry, like, I knew how to do laundry. Because my mom made me do laundry. Sometimes, when I was younger, to teach me like my mom tried. And I had such really bad depression, that cleaning wasn’t a priority in my life. And like, when you are super depressed, those things tend to go unnoticed. And like you don’t like usually bite people in like, you don’t like hanging out with anybody, because you’re like, My place is a mess. Or if you do invite somebody, like I remember I would invite like, somebody would like, oh, let’s hang out. I’m like, okay, and I would be up all night cleaning my little apartment, because it was such, it was so hard to get up and do things. And I also dealt with anxiety as well, which I still kind of deal with. And I like, I probably had anxiety prior to. And with the death of my mom, like I have anxiety when it comes to death and dying because it was so young. And then there was other people that died in my life at the time. So it definitely is very, very hard to deal with. And I’ve learned that sometimes you don’t have to be blood related to be family. I’ve chosen a lot of friends who have become in my love become my family. And they are probably the best things in my life. And so I always tried to keep a contact with my godmother until she died four years ago. So a lot of people that I consider family are definitely not blood related for sure. But yeah.
Victoria Volk 12:47
May I ask what happened with the relationship with the godmother that you were with her from 11. And then what happened when you left at 16.
Amy Medcalf 12:56
So I didn’t like leave. My God, like her daughter was living with us. And she’s 17 years older than me.
Amy Medcalf 13:09
And her and my grandmother went to the cottage for the weekend. And I didn’t want to go. And I snuck on the computer when I was grounded from the computer. So when they got back, they found out I was on the computer, I got grounded again. And my I call her my godsister. She came into my room, she was a big girl too. And like I’m a big girl. And I was looking for my belt. I was supposed to be cleaning my room. And she’s like, What are you doing? And I’m like looking for my belt. And she’s like, it probably wouldn’t fit you anyway, I’m like, basically saying that I’m too big for it or whatever. And I was like, so I found it, I put it on. I’m like, look at that. It’s on the last hole like, like, not the first one like the last one. And it was like, and she just kept teasing me. And I was like, You know what, I don’t want to deal with you. It was more I didn’t want to deal with my sister. So I went out and I was like I tend to. I’m like a very, I don’t like conflict. So I tried to like leave it as much as possible. And I went out to go see my friend. And as I was leaving my godmother said that if I left then don’t come back. But she was saying it, hoping that I just wouldn’t leave. And I went out and my friend took me around and I went and found somebody I could stay with for the night until things cooled down. And I saw my godmother driving by when I was in the other town because we lived in to like in a very small town and the two towns were very connected. When I went back to get my clothes she wasn’t there. But my God sister and my godfather were and my boss was there had this dog it was a Dr. Russell and he was so vicious. Anyway, she had him in his arm. And she’s like, give me your key. And I’m like, no, like, I’m not giving you my key. I’m just getting closed for the night. And she follows me up to my room. And she’s telling me to give her my key. And I’m like, no, like, no, no, no, she grabs me by the back of my neck, pins me to my bed. And it’s trying to get the key and I’m screaming, my godfather comes in, tells her to get off me, but then tells me to give her my key. And for years, I thought that it was all of their doing. But like, I realized that my godmother did not know any of this. And to the day that she died, she died believing that I left on my own because like, I wouldn’t talk about it much. Because like, every time we would talk about it, she get upset, like I would try to like say like, No, this is what happened. She get upset. And like, I didn’t really want to upset her. She was like an old, like, she was born in 40 fours, and she was older. And it was like, she was having a lot of health problems. And I didn’t want to like, so I never got that closure with her. And it was like, really, really heartbreaking. But I’m, I’m working on getting that closure for myself kind of and getting it out there because I don’t want it like, like I told my god brother, the story. And I told my told their cousin. So she’s kind of like my cousin too. And I’m like, just so you know, I’m not this bad person. Like, because I thought they were all kicking me out. There was a little bit of animosity when I was trying to like get some more of my stuff so that I had clothes and everything to wear. And it was a big thing. So it was it was really hard.
Victoria Volk 16:47
I imagine. Yeah. And you speak to what I talk a lot about and what we share in Grief Recovery. Is this incomplete emotionally being this feeling of being emotionally incomplete with people? Yeah. And that’s almost tormenting to us.
Amy Medcalf 17:05
Yeah, it’s almost worse. Like, it’s not like she’s still alive. And I can like be like, Hey, let’s talk about it. Now that I’m older, and I kind of understand how to talk about it with somebody, especially because I went to school for it. But like, and because of like working in my field, like you tend you tend to kind of like build these things. As you get older, whether you’re in the field or not, you tend to build, like a little more clarity of like, how you should deal with things like, I don’t know, if you do this or any like I well, I know a lot of people do this, but like, I sit there and I’ll like have conversations in my head and I’m like, Okay, this is how this conversation is gonna go and never goes the way I want it to. But I’m like, all go back and I’ll like, think of a great comeback. And then I’m like, Oh, I wish I knew that before I like ended that conversation. But yeah, like, I wish I could sit her down and talk to her like, and be like, Hey, I didn’t leave. I didn’t want to leave. I was young. I was scared. Like, I’ve never, like felt more alone at that time. You know, and it’s, it’s a scary thing when you’re 16
Victoria Volk 18:15
Since you’re into spooky things, do you believe in the afterlife?
Amy Medcalf 18:20
Oh, totally. So I believe now like, if she could she would tell me that. She now knows because like, I’m sure in the afterlife, she would know. Especially like if there if you do connect with people in your past, so like she would have had that connection with my mom or whoever else. Right? And it’s like, the communication and finding out what really goes on and I had a friend who while I have she’s still my friend her and her mom do taro and like, I think she can’t like she she also has like a connection with people in the other side and it’s like and she said that she used to feel sick every time she looked at my room because of what happened and and everything and she’s like, she didn’t realize that that’s what went down and blah blah and I believe it on a on a note but like my friend also kind of knew so like it’s kind of like is that her picking up that or is that her picking up? What she also knows at the same time right? Although she forgot the most of it. It’s it’s definitely a huge belief of mine. I do believe in psychics, the right kind of psychics, and because there are some people who will say that they’re psychic and just not because it’s good. Scam money, I guess. But yeah, so I definitely believe in the afterlife and ghost.
Victoria Volk 20:01
You might be interested in listening to my episode with Siri Bernsen. She’s a certified psychic medium. Oh, really? Yeah. But she’s also a grief recovery specialist like me, so. Oh, cool. Yeah. Look at that good lesson because it helps. She also helps people to understand how to connect to their loved ones to in that episode. Yeah. So I would recommend that. So with your mom, I know you mentioned this emotionally incomplete feeling with your godmother. But how about your mom? Like, was that a good relationship?
Amy Medcalf 20:34
Oh, yeah, my mom was a single parent, I was an only child, every child says about their mom, but my mom was the greatest. She, from what I can remember, she was, she was tough, but she was good. Like, she was a very good person, she was very helpful to a lot of people. Like, I remember, she would help her friends by taking their kids who were a little a little rough on the edges. And she would help them kind of like be like, hey, like, you can’t be like this, or she would take in, like, I know, my cousin came to stay with us, because he didn’t have anywhere else to go at a point. And all this other stuff. So it’s like, my mom was very helpful to a lot of people. And I feel like she also kind of like, put others before herself. But we had a really good relationship. I loved her. She was like, my best friend, as much of a kid as, like, as much as I can say, as a kid, like, I wish I kind of have known been able to know her as an adult, and be an actual friend with her and know more about her life than what a child knows about their mom at the time. You know? So it’s like, no, like, I feel like I got robbed of that. And it’s, it’s always been my biggest thing is like, I wish I had known her more as an adult. So,
Victoria Volk 21:57
Do have other family of hers that you’ve been able to. I mean, I know you mentioned you don’t have much family, but did she have siblings and things that you could learn about her from?
Amy Medcalf 22:10
My family life is so she has friends that I can kind of like hit up and be like, hey, like, but a lot of them are just like, she just loved you so much. Like, that’s usually all like, I get like, she just adored you. She just like, you were her life. You are her universe, basically. And it’s like, that’s basically. And I try not to delve into it because they also go through the loss. And I kind of haven’t like wanted to kind of know too to too much yet. And I don’t know the right questions to ask like what I want to know, like, my mom was adopted. And my Nana and Papa also adopted another kid. And so that was my Uncle Chris. And after my Nana died, my Uncle Chris went missing. He went MIA, but he always went MIA even when my mom and my Nana were alive. And my mom was the one who kind of like, went knocking on his door because he was an alcoholic. And he had his problems. And so she would go knocking on his door and she’d be like, No, you need to get back in there and you need to get your help and all this other stuff. And my Nana died not long after my mom. So and then my papa died a few years back, but I stopped talking to him when I was like 18 I think maybe before that way before that. And my uncle Chris’s son, my cousin Peter, him and I stopped talking. So and it’s not that I wanted to stop talking to them. It’s just things happen. So like when I was on my own, my cousin Peter was like, Hey, let’s go to Papa’s for Thanksgiving. And that’s usually like my birthday weekend. And I had just gotten this job at a restaurant and I’m like, Oh, hey, like, I would love to but I have to work. And he got mad at me saying like, I put work for my family. And then he stopped me never talked to me ever since. And we live in the same town and I would see him all the time. And yeah, that one was, but he has his own issues. And I I do kind of I am kind of thankful that I don’t share blood with some of these because like, even my papa like I didn’t find out he had a brother until my Nana’s funeral. And I was 12 at the time because like she died around my trunk. She died the day before the day after my 12th birthday. So a lot of his life was very secretive. And then he started and then he was also kind of abusive to me in his own way like he came over for Christmas to my god pair Since I was 15 years old, and he looks at me, he’s like, you could find a nice boy if you lost some weight. And it’s like, who says that to a 15 year old child. And he started dating this other woman who apparently he ended up marrying. I didn’t know that until I saw his obituary because I was trying to like, find my mom’s obituary, and I stumbled upon it. So he got together with this woman, and my godmother made me go visit him and her. And I didn’t want to because like one, I didn’t really know her. They also weren’t living in the home that I grew up in anymore. So it was just awkward for me. And when I went there, I went to help with the dishes, because I was a polite kid. And I did do a lot of stuff. And so I went to help with the dishes. And she’s like, Oh, no, no, no, no, you just sit there, you relax, and all this other stuff. And she would do that. And like, they lived in like, a tobacco. So like Toronto, and Ontario. So not the safest place. So I wouldn’t even leave. I didn’t go anywhere. And like, I’d be home alone most of the time. And yeah, so like, then when they sent me home, she gives my godparents a letter, which I read. And they’re basically saying that I’m lazy, I don’t do anything. I need to do more chores. And all this stuff. I’m like, Who are you? Like, even my godmother was like, This is ridiculous. I did my chores. She knows that. And so like, after that I just kind of like, was iffy about them. And then I was even more iffy, because I was homeless. And they wouldn’t help me.
Amy Medcalf 26:56
They let me stay in a shelter at 16, even though they had a two bedroom, just because, and I kind of get it but I also kind of don’t. But because her granddaughter who was like, severely autistic would come and stay and she can get and like, some people on the spectrum, they tend to be a little bit like violent, depending on their communication level. And she was nonverbal. So when she couldn’t communicate, she tended to lash out, right? And it’s like, I get it. But if that’s only like every now and then, why can’t I come and have a home? So it was very hard on me that he did that and didn’t stand up for me and be like, hey, like, let me help you.
Victoria Volk 27:39
So you kind of felt like you were on an island, right? Yeah, that’s my people who are illustration of for the my podcast illustrates is you feel like you’re on an island often.
Amy Medcalf 27:52
Yeah, Uber. Yeah, it’s exactly it. And like, sometimes, you sit there and you’re like, be these people who are supposed to love me and care for me, are doing nothing. And they’re letting me drown. Like, this island is like starting to flood at this point. It’s becoming Atlantis, and you’re, I’m like going down with it. And it was only me that has brought myself out of it. I’ve had to rely on myself a lot. And I’ve had to rely heavily on a lot of my friends who were very supportive and very helpful. And a lot of them who are still helpful in my life. I don’t know where I would be if I didn’t have that determination to stay afloat, which sometimes I sunk eventually, I did get back up. That is how life is like, there are gonna be times where you feel like you’re sinking, but you can’t let yourself drown. Like, you know, you have to figure out your ways, like, everybody has their own ways of dealing with their anxiety, their depression, their grief, and it’s all about finding your niche. And sometimes you need to find more than one because like, you can’t consistently rely on the one but like for me like feeling anxious, I can call a friend or try to like I have like a few friends like on standby. So if one doesn’t answer, I can call this person and it’s like, that’s helped me a lot. And also, music is another thing for me. When I’m feeling anxious This is more like when I’m out because like with my anxiety I developed a core phobia so for the longest time I couldn’t go places without feeling like I’m going to die. And because my mom died of a massive heart attack i and the anxiety symptoms that you tend to get so like the heart palpitations, the meaning of the heart, like not being able to breathe, I’m like, oh my god, I’m gonna die. So that was a lot of my life where sometimes I couldn’t even get off the couch. And it’s not easy. It’s so not easy, but I got to a point now where, yeah, sometimes I have really hard days or it’s hard for me to go from point A to point B. But I can now drive to my work, which is a 40 minute drive and on the highway, which I’d never, like driving on, because I had very bad anxiety back in the day, I go from point A to point B, and like, I don’t break down. And it’s because I’ve learned to develop, like, what I need to get there and do that, like, sometimes I’ll be in my head, I’m like, Okay, there’s so many people around, if something happens, like, they’ll help you, you know, like, or at least one of the 20 people that are around here will help you know, and it’s like being in my head and doing that. Whereas like, whenever I would go and talk to somebody their advice, when you have an anxiety attack, a lot of the times I don’t know if it’s changed, because like, every time I now go in, I’m like the counting. Five things, I can taste, touch, hear and everything that doesn’t work. Like, it doesn’t need to talk it out. I know what I can do when I’m feeling anxious at the time. But I think when I get to the level of holding things in which I do a lot, still I need somebody non biased to talk to you. That’s all I needed somebody non biased that I can talk to, and let it all out. Because my boyfriend, I’m sure he’s sick of hearing things. Like he’s like, okay, I get it, but he’s biased. And he will always be on my side in every single case. And so all my friends and like, or they’ll be like, or they just don’t understand. And even when you talk to a professional, they might not understand in your case, but they understand how to talk to you when it comes to those moments. You know, and that I that I found was a really great thing. And I tell my friends all the time, I’m like you need to talk to like, I can talk to you as much as possible. And I can give you the greatest advice ever. And I get it. I’m a social worker, but I’m also biased and like you’re my friend, you have to talk to somebody who’s not who doesn’t know you.
Victoria Volk 32:04
That’s great advice. Yeah. And you bring up a good point. And I I just want to say this too, because you didn’t lead with when you contacted me to be on the podcast, you didn’t leave with the fact that you are a social worker, though. And I find that interesting. And not because you’re not doing that work right now. But I just find that interesting. And I say that because you’re coming on here to share your story, right? But not from a place of expertise. You’re an expert in your story. Of course we all are, are an expert in our story. No one knows it like we do. But I, I bring that up. Because even though you’ve had this training in this education, you are still a Griever you are still processing your own stuff. And as a social worker, you too, need somebody you can’t heal alone on an island. No, no, I just wanted to bring that up. So thank you for sharing all of that.
Amy Medcalf 33:05
Yeah, no worries. And that’s exactly it like, and I tell people this all the time. And I feel like people use my not well, they don’t use it, but like, they’re like, Oh, my God, like Amy like would be a better person to give advice. And I’m like, Okay, I don’t mind giving you advice, but I’m not gonna sit down with you once a week. And like, because that’s not part of like what I do anyways, as a person and a professional or whatever. And it’s like, and even then, like, what I’ve been through, and even what I’ve learned in my training, and everything is not black and white. It’s not what’s written down in the books, you have to read outside of those lines all the time, because everybody deals with grief or any situation that’s traumatic in so many different ways. And because everybody’s brain, if I think of the brain, like a fingerprint, they are so unique. They are so powerful. And like, I could be sitting there. And all of a sudden, I’m remembering something I did when I was like six years old or something. And I get embarrassed. And I’m like, oh my god, like why are we thinking about my past like this? Like, I just wanted to watch my Netflix show, you know? But yeah, like, everybody’s brain is so different. And everybody deals with grief differently. Like, even if it was the exact same situation like, say you and I share the situation. Your mom died the same year. You were the same age as me in the same way and all this other stuff like it could be the exact situation. But because you and I are totally two different people with two different brains. You’re going to grieve a lot differently than what I’m going to grieve.
Victoria Volk 34:54
Well, only that our relationships with our mothers are very different. Exactly, exactly. It’s that brain, the brain connection with that person, that relationship with that person.
Amy Medcalf 35:07
Yeah, that’s exactly it. And like, when I was young, after my mom died, I denied going to see a psychologist, which I’ve really regret. As I got older, I did go through bereavement counseling through school, like, every single year through school. But as I got older, I remember talking to a social worker or somebody. And they asked me like what I used to do, when I was younger, and I was breathing. Now, there, I had some positive, but I also had some negative, because of my anxiety, I would also stay up in lane as I could, because I was afraid I was gonna die in my sleep, and I wouldn’t like and I stayed up until I passed out. So it didn’t get a lot of sleep when I was younger. But when I was really upset, like I had a bad day, or I had a fight with my godparents, I would write in a journal to her. And I, like, ask her questions, I’d be like, How’s heaven, like, I hope you’re okay, and all this other stuff and tell her like, I wish he was still here and all this stuff. And then as I got older, when I was allowed to just sit outside at night, like at midnight, and cry, I would look up at stars, and I would talk to her, and all this other stuff. So it’s the when I spoke to the social worker, and I told them that they’re like, basically, you found your own ways of coping in a healthy way. And that’s how I coped with it when I was younger. And it did help me a lot and because like, I, but when I was younger, I was very creative, I like to write I like to draw, I still like to, I just never had the time to. So those were my outlets. And that’s how I coped with it. And as I got older, said, I loved looking at the stars. And I remember when I was younger, as well, after she died, somebody showed me the stars, and they’re like, the first star you see, is always your mom shining down on you. And I always will look up and the first star I see is the one that I always talk to. And it doesn’t always have to be the brightest star. But it’s very, it’s very helpful in a in a way. But, again, what was helpful for me might not be helpful for the next person. It’s always just finding your niche. Well, and it changes over time, too, right? Yeah, I don’t do that as much anymore.
Victoria Volk 37:43
Well, and especially considering our frontal lobes aren’t fully developed until we’re 25 to right 625, something like that, you know, so we don’t have the cognitive ability in a lot of ways to emotionally process some things until we are actually getting that’s why the midlife crisis is what it is, I think, because it takes so long for our brain to fully develop. Yeah, you know, that, you know, everything that but here’s the fascinating thing too about it is that everything that you learn, and how to cope with challenges in life, are developed by the age of three or 470 5%, of how you will cope with challenges as an adult, are formed and developed in your, in your beliefs, like what you know, by the age of three, or 470 5%. And then the rest is like 1516.
Amy Medcalf 38:44
And it’s so crazy, because like, we don’t realize a lot of people don’t realize that and it, it’s how you nurture and deal with situations when you’re talking to your children who are at that age and older and all that stuff. And your how you treat the situations at that time, is how they’re going to figure out how to treat it in the future. And it could not be in the right way. And not that parenting is easy, and it’s not perfect. And sometimes we’re going to do things the wrong way. I’m not a parent, but like I’m talking about other people who are parents and I have friends who struggle and they’re like, I think I’m failing and I’m like you’re not failing. There’s no book written about being a perfect parent, and there’s no perfect parent, you’re, you’re fine. Or your kids eating or they do have a shelter over their head. Do they have a bed to sleep in at night? You’re doing great. Like and that’s exactly it. And I tell my friends all the time, like my one friend, she needs a break and I’m like, take that break, tell your partner. Next time you’re off. I’m going and she’s like, I don’t even know myself anymore. I’m like, you don’t have to know yourself. And I’m like, go get a coffee and go sit by the water somewhere or go into the woods and scream like you don’t have to Go to the spa or go to the movies. Like it’s not about that it’s about channeling who you are. And like getting deeper into your self and having that quiet and alone time sometimes because you have children or whatever at you all the time. It’s totally not what we’re talking about when it comes to grief. But like, it is a kind of grief, though. Because mothers who are there for their kids all the time, feel like they lost themselves. And that’s another part of grief and when, and especially with postpartum, and that being a big thing, you got to understand that you have to take that break, you have to go, and it’s okay to cry. And I tell this to everybody, no matter what it is, if it hurts you enough. It’s okay to cry. Crying releases that chemical in your brain that helps you feel good. I find if I have a nice big cry, I’m good. I’m tired, and I’m ready to go to bed. I take that time to cry sometimes. And if I really don’t want to I try not to look at animal videos, you got to understand that to help yourself. It’s not always about having to go out and do something where you’re spending a whole ton of money. Like, just go to the coffee shop, get a $2 coffee and just go sit in your car, cry, scream, or just watch and meditate like it’s you don’t have to do anything super extreme. To kind of like get that chemical release in your brain that says okay, you’re okay.
Victoria Volk 41:35
To everything you just said that was like my life. That was me and motherhood it was my youngest went to kindergarten I had this midlife crisis like that was my identity. I did have a business at the time to which I also closed at around the same time. I knew I was going to close it. And so I lost that baby. And I lost my other my other baby. And it was a really difficult time. And that’s really what opened me up to wanting to feel better to wanting to discover myself who I was before them who I was before grief even because that really opened up a lot of old wounds to right. Oh, yeah, I mean, children will do that. And I mean, that’s what happens. They reflect back to us what we need to really work on in ourselves. And I say this to on this podcast a lot. If you’re a parent and you’re listening, the best thing you can ever do for your kids is to work on yourself. Yeah, bar none. That’s exactly the greatest gift you can give them.
Amy Medcalf 42:39
Like, I find a lot of mothers tend to put their all into the household and making sure, like 24/7. And it’s even like with my job when I was working in group homes, I’d be at that group home and I just go home and I’d sleep in and come back. And I never took time to care for myself. And when you don’t take that time you tend to burnout. And burnout can look like depression, it can look like anxiety, it can look like a multitude of other things. Like you just don’t want to do anything. You don’t want to shower, you don’t want to eat you don’t like or you forget to eat. And you got to understand that you can’t do it all by yourself. You have if you have a partner, or if you have somebody like a friend to come be like, Hey, can you come watch my kids for an hour, I need to go and I need some time to myself. Or tell your partner like, hey, I want to take the day, you get your time. I want my time. You know, like, You got to be demanding like you’re not failing as a parent. Because you need a break from your kids.
Victoria Volk 43:50
That’s the greatest example you can give your kids exactly caring for yourself. Exactly. And that’s it. Grab a pen and paper and go somewhere. And that’s how you discover yourself. Ask yourself some deeper, better questions.
Amy Medcalf 44:03
Exactly. And it also teaches them that you have boundaries yourself. Because I value yourself. Exactly. Because like as a mom, I’m sure like, you go to the bathroom and Hello, there’s a child there watching you, you know, like are asking you Hey, can I have a snack? Well, Dad’s out in the living room, or near the kitchen is like, go ask him I’m peeing. Right? So like, I also read this thing that was really, really great. It was this couple and each of them had one day in the week, where at a certain time they got to go do whatever they needed to, and they would take care of the kids. So say and there was this one example that they put where the mom it was her time to have her day and she went into her room to into well their room and Have her time. And he gave her that. And one of the children kept saying, I want to ask mommy something I want to and he’s like, No, you can wait. If you need something you can ask me. And like, she got upset and everything and but the whole time he had he kept his foot down. He’s like, if you need something you can ask me. Until then you can wait until the morning. So as it usually is, it’s usually minuscule. Like, I need a snack. But, um, and the next morning, he’s like, she, because I think he explained it to me. He’s like, sometimes Mommy needs a break. And right now she’s taking her break, and you need to deal with me. So the next morning, she even asked like, mom, her mom, like, how was your time? Like, I think she kind of got it. But like, you have to be very consistent with children when it comes to stuff like that. Because like, you need to teach them like, hey, like, it’s something that you don’t like. So like, if I were to do this to you, how would you feel? And like they are at the level where they can understand that. And it’s like, I remember. And I take that back to like, when I was a kid, I was out with my mom, we were at like a restaurant. And I bet my mom for some reason, I wasn’t being malicious. I was just like, Oh, I wonder what happens if I do this. And my mom put me back, and I didn’t like it. And trust me, I never bit after that. Like, like, parents nowadays, like I get it. Like, they’d be like, Oh my god, like, why would you? Why would she bite you? I’m like, well, it taught me that I didn’t like it. And that I probably shouldn’t do it ever again. And now I kind of like do it jokingly, like with my boyfriend be like, Oh, I’m gonna bite you like, but like, I don’t like bite hard. And like I did when I was a kid. And it’s like, you kind of take things like that. And you have to kind of give them natural consequences to like, what they do. And I think a lot of people protect their kids from that.
Victoria Volk 47:12
Well, and I just shut up just to that point, it’s let them sit in their uncomfortable feelings for a little bit.
Amy Medcalf 47:19
That’s exactly it. Right? And
Victoria Volk 47:22
they don’t learn how to manage their emotions, if they’re constantly if their emotions are
Amy Medcalf 47:27
in that band aid. Yeah, that’s exactly it, they, you need to give them that band aid. You can’t keep giving them that band aid. Sometimes they need to realize like, hey, I need to give myself that band aid. Because I’m old enough to do so.
Victoria Volk 47:42
And when they see that they went through this uncomfortable feeling. I couldn’t talk to my mom, it was uncomfortable. I didn’t like it. And the next day, well, it was okay. Yes, fine. It wasn’t that big of a deal. Next are connecting those dots, and they make that connection, connection themselves.
Amy Medcalf 47:59
And then they, when they get older, they’re gonna be like, Man, my parents aren’t alone now. Mom, I need my space, like, you know, so like, but it’s all always about give and take, and you need to you need to put those boundaries and teach your kids these boundaries, right? So I don’t even know how we got on this topic.
Victoria Volk 48:23
Not sure either. One. And that’s a lot of grief. I mean, it is it’s parenting is going to have a lot of grief, it’s going to carry a lot of grief with it. Because you will feel like you’re failing a lot. And you do what you know best. But if you can work through your own stuff, so that whenever your children are doing something and projecting their feelings, and it’s reminding you of something from your childhood, and then all of a sudden, it’s really emotionally fueled, and you know, all of that it’s, you can’t I know me personally, I dealt with a lot of I had a lot of pent up anger from my child and my, my dad passed away when I was eight, just a lot of anger. Just a lot of anger from my childhood. And I didn’t I stuffed it down and for like, you talked about, like the things that you use to cope. And for me, it was writing. I had a journal and then tell my mom read it. And parenting is ever changing. You constantly every day is an opportunity to learn something, but you have to be an observer. You have to be kind of step back from the situation and just observe like, why is this like, stirring me up? Like why is this making me upset? Yeah, and usually it’s, it’s not the child that’s intentionally doing it. It’s that feeling you get that you feel provoked, right? You just feel provoked. So yeah, Especially how to work through but anyway, yeah,
Amy Medcalf 50:02
Oh, yeah, no, no. And children. They, they, they know how to push buttons
Victoria Volk 50:09
While in your nanny, um, yeah, you’re not a parent or a nanny, I used to watch that show Supernanny, when I was feeling kind of crazy as a parent, it’s easier for her.
Amy Medcalf 50:18
Yeah. And it, it’s crazy, like you see, like these families where these kids are like running the show, and it’s like, you got to parent first and friend later. Because if you’re teaching your kids like, yes, you want to be their friend, yes, you want to have that relationship. And it’s, it’s hard to kind of like, build from how you were brought up. But there’s different ways of parenting from the way you were brought up. Because a lot of people are very, I didn’t like how my mom raised me, like, I didn’t like being grounded, I didn’t like this or whatever. And like, you get it. And, but kids need structure kids need that, hey, like, if I do something that’s not appropriate, I’m gonna get in trouble for it. In real world, if somebody does something bad, they’re either gonna get fined, they’re gonna go to jail, they’re gonna get fired, all that other stuff. And if we’re saying, like, Hey, it’s okay, like you did this, like I understand your feelings, I do understand your feelings, like, you can still talk to them as the adult, but you need to put those pieces down where it’s like, hey, you know what, like, this is a natural consequence. And you’re gonna have to sit in your room, I get it, these are your big feelings. This is how your, how you deal with it. But natural consequences is you need to sit in your room, and you don’t get electronics. Because in real world, you can’t be like, going out there and saying, like, and screaming and yelling, or whatever the cases, and I can’t think of a situation right now.
Victoria Volk 51:52
I think like what you’re saying, it comes down to accountability,
Amy Medcalf 51:55
it does, it definitely comes down to accountability and keeping that structure in keeping in line with what you say. And kids are going to be all on you and like begging and it’s like, you have to keep your foot down, you have to because like, they’re not going to be able to get this in real life where they’re going to have a boss, they’re gonna have a professor like, oh, like, I think I deserve a b like, sometimes, yes, you probably are in a yes, sometimes you probably did, you can get it double checked in college, but like, sometimes you didn’t put enough work in. And it’s like you have to, they have to kind of like develop those skills where they can learn how to manage their time and their and manage how they react to certain things. And it’s like, but they can’t, like we talked about, like how they develop that cognitive part where they deal with certain things at four years old. And it’s like, they’re learning how to deal with that. And if we’re dealing that for them, they’re not going to learn how to deal with that later on in life.
Victoria Volk 53:01
Right? I think it circles back to your own personal experience, right? Like, exactly, basically learning how you had to reparent yourself.
Amy Medcalf 53:10
Exactly. And like, when I was younger, I, I know, my mom put those things in place where I learned that, like, I was scared to be like a little rebel, you know, like, I didn’t want to put my foot out of line because I didn’t want to get into a lot of trouble and lose out on a lot of things that I wanted to do in life. Because sometimes that’s what what’s happened, what happens when you get older. That’s another type of loss that kids go through because like, wanting to go to a certain college because they didn’t put all their effort into it or whatever, or they didn’t put all their ducks in a row because they weren’t taught how to, they tend to lose out on the things that they want in life. And it’s it’s hard and like, yeah, there are other options. But some times, and I a lot of things do happen for reasons and it at that point, it’s going to teach them like, hey, if I really want to do this, then I have to start doing it now. Like it’s never too late to change. And they got to realize that it’s never too late to change. But start the work. You know, like you got to learn how to start the work, you have to learn how to do things for yourself. And some people are gonna be better than you and some people are and you’re gonna be better than some other people and it’s not about everybody winning. It’s about you getting to where you need.
Victoria Volk 54:33
So what would you like to scream to the world in the past or recently in wish people knew about your grief?
Amy Medcalf 54:40
Who, when it came to my grief, that was my anxiety. I had really bad anxiety and I I will need people to be with me. So a lot of my agoraphobia part where I needed I would need somebody to be with me a lot of the time. And some of my friends get it now because they have anxiety already, a couple of them have apologized to me. But it’s like, with my grief, Don’t abandon me. Like, I wish I could tell everybody Don’t abandon me. I’m dealing with a lot of stuff. I’m, I’m still learning how to process it. And with grief, you always learn every single day, that you have to process it in a different way. Because your brain is constantly changing. It’s constantly doing different things. And you’re always going to be doing something different. And the way you develop your grief, and the way you deal with your grief can change consistently and mine has. And sometimes it’s put me in a place where people are like, hey, like, You’re so different, or whatever. And it’s like, listen, like, I can’t help it. I’m trying. Don’t leave me right now, because I need you the most.
Victoria Volk 55:54
Well, and to that point, you could say, but that other person when they say that to you, like, Wow, you’re really different. Like, yeah, you know, if we all stayed the same. Yeah, you know, if I would have been, if I’d be I was when I’m 21. Boy, man, if I only knew at 21 what I know now. Yeah, exactly. That’s the blessing of age is, is wisdom. Yeah. You know, so it’s a good thing. We don’t stay the same. No good thing. I think we need to embrace that. Yeah, embrace the change, embrace change. That’s the only death taxes and change are the only sure things in life. So what is one tip that you would give another hurting heart today, maybe specifically, I want to say specifically a teenager that just might so happen to stumble upon this episode today. And maybe the parent of that child or the caretaker of that child.
Amy Medcalf 56:55
Number one, it’s okay to cry, you’re not weak, because you’re crying. It’s, it shows strength, it shows that you care, and it shows. And again, crying is so helpful to your psyche, it helps build that chemical balance that you need to kind of deal with the situation and release the build up inside of you. And to a parent who sees this.
Amy Medcalf 57:27
Just sit there,
Amy Medcalf 57:28
Hold them. Tell them it’s okay. Tell them it’s okay to cry. Never say stop being a baby. Like I was a big crybaby I get it like, it’s a lot like if your kid is a crier, depending on the situation.
Amy Medcalf 57:46
Also, just
Amy Medcalf 57:47
Never ever call them a baby. Don’t be a baby. Be like, I understand you’re having some emotions. Offer them the do you need me to sit with you? Would you like me to hold you and rub your back? Do you need some space? Like, don’t overload it? But like, be simple? Like, do you want me to be here? Or do you want some alone time? And then they’ll let you know. Because like, when I was having my emotions, I just wanted somebody to hold me and rub my back. I still do. Like I because like, I remember being sick and like really sick, I had pneumonia and I was crying and my mom sat there and she rubbed my back. And that was my that was my love language, My Love Languages touch. And like just rubbing my back and it was soothing. And it and that’s what it reminds me of and that’s why I feel I need that and some people just don’t some people need the space because they that’s not their love language. Or learn what your child’s love languages and show them that you’re there and that you care and give them what they need. Always be there.
Victoria Volk 59:02
So very good point. I wonder if there’s a love language book for kids.
Amy Medcalf 59:07
I you know what, that I didn’t know learn about love language until I was like maybe like five years ago. And it’s like, so I don’t know. I wonder if there is because people need to learn that. It’s okay to love this but you gotta realize that some people don’t like that. Like my boyfriend’s not Pachi His Love Languages food.
Victoria Volk 59:29
So I don’t know if that’s a love languages.
Amy Medcalf 59:32
It can be it’s like one of them. Or something I can’t remember there’s seven of them. There’s Oh service. Yeah, service. Yeah. Service gifts. Touch.
Victoria Volk 59:42
I can’t remember the rest of mine. Mine is words of affirmation and words of affirmation is touch.
Amy Medcalf 59:49
See I like a mix of everything but touches my biggest one. Next to that is a word of affirmation. Because I I feel like I always need like somebody be like, Hey, you’re doing Good. That’s another thing.
Victoria Volk 1:00:02
Well and this is there’s two more points I just want I thought of is that. So I was called a cry baby too. And so if you have a sensitive child understand that, that they’re not crying just because yeah, some children are just more sensitive.
Amy Medcalf 1:00:17
I also learned recently that females, like myself, that could be a sign of ADHD is crying all the time, especially if they daydream a lot. And they’re kind of like, Oh, I’d rather sit in the corner and read a book type thing. And that was me. And I’m currently in the process process of trying to kind of like, figure out if that’s what I have. And because like, that can also be a very big difference of like, how you treat your anxiety in that, right.
Victoria Volk 1:00:53
So well, and I just learned about, let’s come across my severe recently is complex PTSD, which is common in children who’ve experienced trauma. And so yeah, I don’t know if you’ve heard anything about this or read anything on that. I kind of its kind i or thing.
Amy Medcalf 1:01:18
I know, pts. Like, I had PTSD. And I still do, depending on the situation, because like, I, right now my PTSD is more about like the dog that I had, and he got run over in front of me and like, that’s my PTSD now, but I had PTSD from like when my mom had died, but like, sometimes PTSD can kind of go away eventually, once you start kind of like, being like, okay, I’m okay with this situation that and like, you’ve kind of like got a little bit closure. Or it just kind of like lessons and kind of like goes into the backburner, especially as you age. I’ve never heard of the complex PTSD. I gotta look it up, though. I’m going,
Victoria Volk 1:02:02
I’m gonna ask your opinion on something too, in a question, because you have anxiety said, and you’re wondering if you have ADHD, and just listening to what you’re saying. And one thing to that? I mean, whether it’s addiction, ADHD, anxiety disorders, things like that, do you think or believe, because a part of me really believes that the root of it is grief?
Amy Medcalf 1:02:28
Oh yeah, I think, um, a lot of kids, a lot of kids can deal with a lot of grief in the beginning, especially depending on how their childhood is because a lot of kids go through divorce parents, a lot of kids go through like some sort of abuse, like even if they have like, the perfect parents, there’s somebody out there, like, they go to school and they get bullied. That’s a type of grief, that’s a type of trauma, which gives people anxiety about dealing with people in social anxiety, and all that other stuff. So a lot of grief and trauma can definitely be a trigger for a lot of things like, you could also somewhat have something and then it’d be triggered by certain other things, whether it be drugs, whether it be grief, whether it be trauma, in general, or abuse, anything, like a lot of things can just be triggered, when you’ve already kind of have it in your, in your brain. And it’s, it’s almost like an on and off switch, that it just turns on, and it never goes away.
Victoria Volk 1:03:37
But what I would love to like really deep dive into and research is, you know, following people over decades of their life into older age. And really, if you address the grief, get to the root of it, and you address the grief itself. Yeah, whether it would help does everything else kind of level off? Because I have heard many times, even people I’ve talked to on this podcast, who were on ADHD medication as children. Yeah, who had traumatic experiences, who sexual identity issues, things like that, who are now off of medication, like ADHD just went away, like, the medication like they just don’t need it anymore. It did. Because he dealt with the grief with the therapist. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? So I think I that’s just a something I want people to consider and take away from, is that
Amy Medcalf 1:04:36
There’s other ways of dealing with certain things like you you have your medication, you have your your people that help you you have there’s so many different treatment options to a lot of things like with the person who has ADHD, they might have needed the medication more when they were a kid, because it’s harder to kind of get around that and like it’s easier to kind of sit a kid down when they’re calm and be like, Hey, here’s what we can do to kind of help when you’re angry or when you’re feeling like you need to jump around and all that other stuff like my, my boyfriend has ADHD, he was diagnosed as a child and he was medicated as a child. He’s not really on the medication, because he would lose so much weight when he was on the medication. But when he, he talks to somebody he’s he has, and he has people who are there for him, when he needs them the most, he’s able to deal with it a lot better, he still has the hyper part where he has the pace a lot of the time, like, so if he’s on the phone, he’s like pacing back and forth. He keeps his attention the most when he games. So it’s all about finding your focus and finding out where you need to place that focus and, and dealing with it in healthy ways. Again, it’s all about healthy ways.
Victoria Volk 1:05:55
I would just ask them in that instance, in your boyfriend’s example, you don’t have to share on the show. But was there something in his childhood that triggered the ADHD response? Like Did he have any trauma? That’s what I had a lot of trauma. That’s what I’m getting at like is, is are these diagnosis is that people are getting for ADHD, anxiety disorders, things like that. Is it as a result of grief and trauma and if we dealt with the grief and trauma,
Amy Medcalf 1:06:27
And don’t forget, you also had generational trauma that each generation deals with, because that’s how it is like. So a lot of people who say, their generational trauma was like they don’t, they live on very low income and the drugs or alcohol, and that was their life. And sometimes it’s hard to break out of that some people do like nowadays, it’s a little easier, because there’s more resources out there, especially for women, that they are able to break out of this generational trauma of abuse and all this other stuff, and flourish for themselves. And it’s all about finding again, it’s always about finding your niche and finding what works for you.
Victoria Volk 1:07:15
And it comes down to access. Yeah. In open to help. Yeah. And having an awareness that you need help. Exactly, exactly. It’s yeah, it’s not. I’m by no means saying, well, we just dealt with all
Amy Medcalf 1:07:29
Agree. It is not easy. No, it’s
Victoria Volk 1:07:32
Not. But it starts with us as individuals first, right? Yeah, that’s really where we’re it has to start.
Amy Medcalf 1:07:39
Yeah, cuz like with how things are nowadays, too. It’s all about having the time to do these things as well, because you, you have to work, especially with how high the living cost is nowadays, compared to like 20 years ago, it’s the cost of living is so high for a lot of people like even dual, like people on dual incomes, it makes it hard. So
Victoria Volk 1:08:03
I do have one thing to say on that, though, is because we do have some responsibility in that because we do do WE ARE WE gluttonous in some areas of our lives where we think we need certain things totally us and make us happy. And therefore we have these expenses that we probably could live without.
Amy Medcalf 1:08:23
Oh, definitely like, but I we only have like Netflix and like Disney plus, we don’t have like cable or anything. So we don’t pay like $150 for internet and cable, I just pay for internet and then to like a couple of streaming services. So there’s that and there’s always that media and there’s always those commercials like Oh, come get a new TV or come get this new console for gaming and all this other stuff and and that that is what triggers kids nowadays. And you have YouTube and you have tick tock and they’re like, Oh, look at this new toy. Because like YouTube is very big for this where you have people opening up new toys and just playing them and kids are just like, Oh my God, I need all of that. And it’s it’s something that we’ve even dealt with when we were younger when we had commercials of like, what was it like Furby or something? And
Victoria Volk 1:09:24
I’m a little bit older than you.
Amy Medcalf 1:09:27
Well, for me it was like Furby it was like, I can’t even remember what
Victoria Volk 1:09:31
I’m rainbow bright days. So
Amy Medcalf 1:09:36
What’s her name? Strawberry Shortcake.
Victoria Volk 1:09:39
shortcake cabbage. signworks I had to Yes, yeah.
Amy Medcalf 1:09:43
Foldables Yeah, like, there’s always these things because people just want like, these companies just want to make money and they just like advertise all these things. And we think that we need them because they tell us we need them.
Victoria Volk 1:09:55
People want to feel better. Yeah. And like in Grief Recovery, we be called These things STURMS short term energy relieving behaviors, we think if we get these things that will feel better.
Amy Medcalf 1:10:05
And it’s a lot easier to get these things with Amazon and all this other stuff, you just click a button, then it comes to your door, you don’t even have to get up and get it anymore.
Victoria Volk 1:10:14
And you don’t have to necessarily pay for it right away either. Right when it comes to like what you said about credit? And if you don’t understand that, and yeah, and then you get more grief because of that, because you have shame then and yeah, it’s a cycle.
Amy Medcalf 1:10:28
It’s, it definitely is it definitely is. And it’s hard to break out of that cycle. So don’t like, don’t ever feel bad because like, I still do it sometimes. And I spend money. And I’m like, Oh, why did I do this? And like, we all do it. It’s it’s a part of life and it but it’s all about making your choices and learning from them.
Victoria Volk 1:10:49
And maybe living with a little bit more intention. Yeah, yeah,
Amy Medcalf 1:10:54
Being more aware of like your surroundings, I feel like a lot of us just walk through life in a fog. Because if we’re like zombies, we go from point A to point B, because we’re told we just need to do that. And it’s like, gotta be more aware of what we’re doing in our daily day to day life
Victoria Volk 1:11:11
And especially when you’re in the fog of grief. Exactly. So what is your grief taught
Amy Medcalf 1:11:16
you? My grief has taught me to love myself. Sometimes, because sometimes you’re not going to get that love from other people that you need. And you need to learn to love yourself.
Victoria Volk 1:11:29
I’m writing that down. That is audible. Perfect. That’s the best answer. I think. I mean, I love all my guests. But that’s by far the best answer, because that really resonates with me, too. Yeah, I love that. And it’s very hard to love yourself. So is it is especially when you weren’t really that really wasn’t emulated for yourself, right. And that comes down to as mothers, that’s the best gift too, that we can show our daughters and our sons like loving ourselves so that they don’t need somebody else to fulfill that for them. They don’t look to somebody else to fulfill that. Or they don’t look to food, or they don’t look to alcohol, or they don’t look to drugs to fulfill that in them.
Amy Medcalf 1:12:10
Exactly, exactly.
Victoria Volk 1:12:13
So is there anything else you would like to share?
Amy Medcalf 1:12:15
I think that’s it.
Victoria Volk 1:12:17
And where can people find you if they would love to reach out to you?
Amy Medcalf 1:12:20
So you can always find me on Instagram? I do have my own personal one. It’s autumn Lily ADA. I really have to. It’s my old one. But you can also find me at our podcast link which is or on Instagram, which is once upon a nightmare. I think there’s an underscore at the end of that because it was taken. But if you look us up, you’ll see, you’ll see us.
Victoria Volk 1:12:55
All right. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And we went in a lot of directions. But I think it was everything
Amy Medcalf 1:13:03
Grief is not in grief is not singular.
Victoria Volk 1:13:06
So it’s messy. It’s very messy. It touches every area of our life. So I think it’s every area. It is perfect. Yes. That’s another quotable. Like glitter. It is it truly is. Yeah, it’s naive to think that just because you had a loss, like that’s just all you’re dealing with, it is impacting your money. It is impacting your parenting, it is impacting your friendships, your marriage, every aspect of your life. And I think if we pluck it like a weed and address it and really address it, and get complete with what is emotionally incomplete, which is possible. It is possible. We can live fulfilling and joyful lives.
Amy Medcalf 1:13:52
Yeah, that’s definitely it.
Victoria Volk 1:13:54
Right. Well thank you again. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Podcast |
Wayne Forrest | Waking Up a C4 Quadreplegic: My Catalyst to Becoming
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
“Bang, I made a mistake!”
Those were the words, my guest, Wayne Forrest, described the moment that changed his life forever.
It was a chance happening (or was it?) that Wayne had some teammates out injured from his rugby team, and he filled in to play the game he loved.
One play during that game would have him waking up in a hospital bed five days later to realize he could not only move his legs but he couldn’t move his arms or hands. In an instant, Wayne became a statistic and a C4 quadriplegic.
I’ve always loved under-dog stories – always. It seems the people who have endured the most unfathomable circumstances often find a way a dig deep within themselves and turn a tragedy into gold.
Wayne is now a motivational speaker, coach, and TEDx speaker and has done more in his life while in a wheelchair than many of us who have full use of our limbs.
This is one of those stories I know I will come back to and play again when I doubt myself, feel like a Debbie Downer, or just need to realize how freaking blessed I am.
No matter what you’ve gone through in your life or are going through, I hope you listen to Wayne’s story. He shares three things that helped him get through his “dark night of the soul” and how he’s no one special – we are all capable of turning our lives around at any given point. It does, however, come down to deciding to do so; only then will you see yourself becoming – who you were always meant to be.
“Do something that scares you every day.” – Wayne Forrest
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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, whatever time it is and wherever you’re listening from. Thank you for tuning in. And you might be wondering if you’ve been following my podcast for a while. Why this is not a takeaways and reflections episode this week after last week’s AMI Metcalf’s episode. And it is because I’m approaching episode 100. And I really wanted that episode to be a takeaways and reflections and just how my schedule when it didn’t work out that way. So I am putting Amy’s and Wayne’s episodes into one takeaways and reflections episode that’ll come out next week. And so in the meantime, this week’s episode is a treat. I absolutely love my conversation with Wayne. And it’s so inspiring even though it’s months later that it’s going live. I’m just as inspired by him and I can’t wait for you to listen. So without further ado, let’s get into this week’s episode. My guest today is Wayne forest. He is an international transformational speaker and Life Mastery consultant, certified by the brave thinking Institute in LA. He grew up in the community on the east coast of Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand, where he farmed for 25 years with 15 of these from a wheelchair. And he now lives more inland with his wife, Kathy on a small block. He has four children and three grandchildren. And he says that his sporting accident in 1995, leaving him a C five quadriplegic was the catalyst for his ongoing journey into personal development, which has given him the incredible life that he loves, and is very grateful for. Thank you so much for being here.
Wayne Forrest 2:41
It’s a pleasure, Victoria is an absolute pleasure.
Victoria Volk 2:45
It’s my honor to have you I absolutely love connecting with people in this way, one on one and diving deep into grief and hearing the ins and outs of other people’s stories of in your case transformation, which I am very excited to share with my listeners and hear more about. And so can you please take us back to that day when your life changed?
Wayne Forrest 3:10
Yes. It was rather a dramatic change. I was grew up in that physical world of farming. Right from an early age I was on on the front of my grandfather’s horse, out on the farm, immersing myself into it. And then one day I was told to go to school, which I didn’t really think was much chop at all. But school head sport so you know, very physical background. And as I grew up, I immersed myself into those kind of businesses even shearing sheep before my accident and had a couple of businesses going. And I was married and had two beautiful twin daughters of 16 months. And I played rugby for my local club. And we had a few members away and injured that week. And I was a senior member and I played a lot of rugby and making some rip sides that I have kept and before so it wasn’t unusual for me to be a leader of the team. And the game was just a typical tough physical game that we have here in New Zealand. It can be very physical, and we’ve we’re losing and with the lovely little move on as a team with the ball and I ended up receiving that ball and took it into contact with two of the opposition. And bang. I made a mistake. I ended up with my head under my shoulder rolling over onto my neck, which dislocated my neck, I couldn’t breathe. The pain was absolutely incredible. felt like someone was sticking a hot poker right into my neck. And it took about an hour or more for the emergency helicopter to arrive. And he asked me if I’d had any pain relief, I said, No, he gave me some medicine. And I passed out, I woke up five days later, in a hospital bed, honestly, I thought I was in the middle of a dream. And I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t move my hands or couldn’t move my arms, or my legs. And so I went from physical to not having any movement, physical movement are all so you imagine the shock and being a shy country boy and having to have nurses take me to the toilet, you know, do my toileting and feed me and things like that? It was terrible. And there was shame, there was a lot of emotions going around inside me and a lot of thoughts that were creating. You mentioned fear, and anxiety and all those emotions.
Victoria Volk 6:33
I can’t even imagine. I don’t know that anyone really can. But do you recall any conscious thoughts or, or like an experience of almost imagine it would be like this out of body? Like you’re looking at yourself? And like, like, do you recall that moment in that hour? After until you passed out? Or when you were starting to regain consciousness? Do you recall any aspect of that?
Wayne Forrest 6:59
Differently? That bad dream, you know, like, feeling like you’d wake up in a cold sweat afterwards, with a shock through the system of Ah, shit. I’m having a bad dream in your wake up? Oh, hell, no. It’s not a pipe dream. I’m actually in this. And you kind of wanted the wake up, you know, from from this experience and go, Oh, sure. That didn’t happen. But it did. And so you hit that kind of feeling. It’s quite interesting, because I had a friend staying with me that weekend that I’d met overseas a few years earlier, and his partner, and we were just having a quiet drink that night before. And an accident was shown on TV of a young fella who, out of 26 kids was one of two survivors. And he broke every bone in his body falling off platform overlooking a river out we’ve got beautiful country, and it was out in the, in the wilderness. And so about 23 Young people died, that are on that platform. And the sham follow was one of the only survivors. Now my friend visited me a couple of weeks later in hospital. And he said, Can you remember the conversation that we had that night? About the sham follow up? And I said no. And he said, Well, you said that you would rather be dead then have every bone in your body broken. And then this happens to the next day. Coincidence, I don’t know. But synchronicities. I ended up sharing the room with the same guy. And that thought never occurred to me until he brought it up. It’s quite funny. There’s something and that’s that strives not wants to die. I have that feeling of oh my god, I’d rather be dead. There was life seeking through me once I had my accident. Yes, a few of those thoughts came in later down the track where where, you know, you might have been going through a dark patch or a dark moment and this experience of like, talking months or even years later, and no because it’s now 26 years since my accident. So I’m kind of talking about the first five and Not once. In that first few weeks, did that thought come into my mind? It was about survival. It was about getting better. It was about how can I, you know, survive this. So it’s really interesting how you know, the conscious mind can say something the day before you have an accident that you’d rather be dead, then totally forget about that. And just concentrate on on survival. Interesting experience to go through.
Victoria Volk 10:36
Have you connected with that man since or did you stay connected with him? I’m just curious of the friend, the man that was in that shared the hospital room with you the gentleman that had that accident?
Wayne Forrest 10:50
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have. I haven’t been in touch the last few years, he ended up with more movement than I did. Which is quite ironic. And I quite often, that’s my sense, humor. I laugh about these things. But it’s quite interesting how this journey seems to have fight or the synchronicities that are tied into the experience.
Victoria Volk 11:26
I absolutely believe in synchronicities for sure. I imagine with your children being so young, can you speak to that the grief of the family unit moving forward, and when did it feel like it was starting to maybe lift where you felt like you are more in control of your mindset around it?
Wayne Forrest 11:52
Might, that’s a big one. The twins, they now have been so young to and being your first children and having twins, you can imagine that I had no choice I had to be a full on dead and being physical. And being on the farm and outdoors, I often took one of them species, one that was a little bit more difficult with me. Anyone who’s had twins knows that they have their turns that been difficult, especially when they’re little. So I used to take one in particular with me out on the farm and out on jobs. So she spent a lot of time with dad. And then it was a good month, nearly three weeks to a month before she saw me again in that hospital bed because I was so far away from home, I remember her reaction, she saw me in the bed and pack the biggest wobbly, you could and lay down on the floor of the hospital kicking and screaming. And I knew exactly what you wanted me to
Wayne Forrest 13:12
Do, and I know the listeners might be able to see that I’ve got really emotional because it still hit me right in the guts. Because she wanted me to pick her up and out could wasn’t until she left that room with my family. I just broke down really, really hit me hard. And, you know, I know now that that’s part of the lesson. It’s part of a part of growing me from inside out. But But at that moment, that was gut wrenching. It really hit me home that my life has changed. Because I would pick her up, I would take her away from the situation. I would have, you know, soothed her in that way as a dad. And yeah, I couldn’t. And of course, you know, my first marriage, my wife had her own inner demons and you know, me not having that control. I always saw myself as a bit of a white knight on a horse. I know it’s a bit egotistical before my accident where I could control control and help people and my wife drank quite heavily. And so, you know, all of a sudden, I couldn’t control that anymore physically. And so there was a lot of that feelings of, of hopelessness of, of vulnerability of, to the point where at times, if she’d been drinking, I felt at a fear of my own life, you know, it wasn’t always the case. But I had those thoughts. So it took to answer your question, it took probably a good three years to five years for me to start really creating that physical control again, and control of my environment. And of course, in that process, our marriage didn’t survive, I knew enough that I wanted to create a strong relationship with and you can imagine nasty separations, she didn’t really want to be separated from me, but didn’t want to be with me. So I forced their shoes. So it did get a little bit messy, you know, and, sadly, kids got caught in the middle, I knew enough to make sure that I didn’t blame her for the separation, and I tried to keep tried to be the ground, and that, that relationship for them. And now, I’ve got a fantastic relationship, that 28 years old, they’re both kids have their own marriage, you know, so, and we’re very tight as a family. And as time has gone over, you know, the relationship with my ex wife has healed and, and, and we’ve created a bridge for them. So we know, so we can work for me is so they can have a life and not worry about mom and dad been in the same room.
Victoria Volk 17:18
That’s a beautiful gift to give them. A lot of ego having to be put aside and to work on daily to do that to imagine.
Wayne Forrest 17:29
Why ego no ego, put me in the position of broke my neck or dislocated my neck. Ego, you can imagine coming from that farming, sport, rugby, booed, man, no, drank too much party to hide background. And then having to there was a lot of ego even in my healing, there was a lot of ego. And that’s one thing that I’ve, I’ve learned just in recent years with my study around, there’s spiritual laws and, and principles of transformation, that recognizing that ego and the true us the soul or the love, and us, and I’ve done a lot of healing inward on that I’m good enough. Because that same paradigm put me in this position that I made that mistake and dislocated my neck. And I believe this no accidents.
Victoria Volk 18:54
What do you feel was the biggest catalyst in your healing, biggest nurturer of your healing? Maybe it was a resource or a person or what was the biggest? I think you know what I’m trying to say?
Wayne Forrest 19:11
That’s great question. Really great question. And there was a number of things, because it’s been a journey. Right? It was it just didn’t just happen. What I look back now and with my knowledge and what I teach and learn, and I practice these principles every day, and I look back now I think it’s having a vision, having a vision of what would I love, and I knew I wanted to go back to the farm because that was my first love. So I accidentally created a vision and that helped pull me into the becoming and of course I got better physically as well because I had a clear vision of what I wanted to be able to achieve. When I had my accent, I couldn’t move my arms and enhance, like I can now write. And so I worked diligently or hard. In other words, I don’t like that word has worked constantly getting stronger in those early days. And because I had a clear vision, things fell into place, like the right people, I lived in the watts or on a dirt road out in the middle of nowhere on the coast, yet one of the people that has passed now, but she came and helped me with getting up and making as a carer and she was a qualified physio, before she got married to a local farmer. And she was brilliant. She, I put down a lot of what I got back in those early years to her, because of her knowledge, her skill level, she kept me going, you know, and the rehab and, and kept me just inching forward. And I believe in that synchronicity, as we’re talking about before, that was because I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do. And I achieved that I ended up getting strong enough to drive again, within a couple of years that gave me freedom. It gave me independence, that also came in the ability to get something adapted for the farm. So I could get around the farm and start managing net again. And once I achieved that, all of a sudden, it was like, Wow. I want another call. And of course, be very careful listeners, what you asked for. Because, you know, I asked for something that was gonna challenge me. That was going to make me stretch again, just about the next day, I get a email from someone who had started up a pilot course of doing extreme outdoor activities for people with disabilities. No way. No way. All right. And I was like, Oh, shit, that’s scary. Because then we’re going to do and sailing, paragliding scuba diving. And I’m like, how the beep beep beep am I gonna do that? I’m a teacher pledge it with no balance. I’ve got no hands. How am I gonna climb a rope or, or get down a cliff or, you know, be underwater and be able to do these things. And it was perfect. And so I put my name down and in our and I’m a big scaredy cat, or not someone who really looks for danger or for things that are going to scare them. But Dave is aremy. So I did it. And I learned a lot from doing that. I ended up doing water skiing and London here and lake just out of London. I’ve I’ve done paragliding I’ve done scuba diving with the sharks and the Napier aquarium of paragliders off blimmin Cliff, you know, not on my own. But I’ve experienced all these sounds. Because of putting down that first vision. And if this vision then took me on a road of discovery, and you know, where my road was hitting before.
Wayne Forrest 24:07
We don’t know where that would have gone to before my accident. And where I am today. Oh my god, the polarity is so different. No, it’s just so hard to describe because it’s so different from where I was before my accident where I am today. And I’m more confident, I’m more happier with myself healed that I’m a not enough I’m still working on it. As we know. It takes time. But I have four kids now. I’ve got three grandchildren, you know, life is good, even from a wheelchair. And I’d so to answer your question that and this is what I teach quite often in workshops and stuff also is the power of having a great vision, and then deciding for that vision, you know, sometimes life gets difficult, it gets really tough. And I had to keep deciding for that vision when it was tough. When I didn’t feel like getting out a bit, when I wanted to just hide away from life, really, I had to decide and get up, get out and do what I had to do to help me create that next step into my vision. And the third one is sourcing that support. We’re not meant to do it on our own. Quite often our ego tells us that we have to do it on our own. But you know, without that support of that physio that was ended, was my neighbor, or the support of my now wife, that was the girl that came and helped me on the farm. You know, the support of the physios, the doctors, the occupational therapists, all those people, the coaches along the way. So they are three secrets, or three main secrets, I believe, is that clear vision of what you would love decision and creating that support system, finding and sourcing people that have already done it, or have the knowledge to help you achieve. Yes, sometimes you have to pay for that. But maybe it’s well worth every cent.
Victoria Volk 26:51
I love that. That is wonderful advice for anything that people are struggling with. And there’s tips there there’s advice, there’s ways that others supported you. You allow yourself to be supported. I think that’s often hard for people to is to allow themselves to be supported. Like to feel like you were worthy enough worthy of someone’s time and energy and effort putting being put into you. Now it takes a lot of inner work, I think to even get to that point to I remember there’s one podcast interview I did with someone a Griever. And she said something and I I’ve never forgotten it. She said, when you lay you decay, and you chose not to decay and get up every day, even when it was hard. And I imagine you did have days where you did just lay and you did have your pity party and feel down on yourself. And I mean, obviously it’s you’re gonna have days like that, right?
Wayne Forrest 27:51
Oh, totally. No, I was lucky. I had a family that was like, you know, they wouldn’t allow that to happen. They would like just hurry up and get out of bed. Come on. Get on with it. Typical farming folk, you know. Yeah, my father came up and it was just about snowing outside. And it comes in for a cup of coffee a cup of coffee, which he did it most mornings. And I it turns around to me this is whatever you move the ship yet. I’m like, dead. It’s bloody cold outside. But I know moving. Yeah. I’m gonna go once I warm up, okay. It was just like, come on. They they never saw me any different. You know what I mean? It was like, Don’t give me that crap that you’re in a wheelchair. Get out there and bloody dirt. We’re. So I grew up in that kind of attitude. And I think that helped. Helps in those dark days, because I knew I wasn’t gonna get any sympathy that you know, it was like, Come on, get out a bit. Or get moving, you know? So I forced myself to get out of bed before I was told if that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 29:16
I think what they gave you was love because they didn’t enable you to give up on yourself. Right?
Wayne Forrest 29:25
Yeah. Right from an early age right from day dot you know from Ben. young fella was Come on. You got this. All right. Get out. Go and do it. That’s right, that scab off you know. And
Victoria Volk 29:44
It served you Yeah, because look at all the adventures and different things you’ve probably just listening to you you’ve had more like adventurous fun experiences of you know, the parasailing and all of that stuff. I’ve never done any Have that you’ve done more? Even in a wheelchair than I’m I have as an able bodied person like I have fully functioning limbs in, what am I doing here? Right?
Wayne Forrest 30:13
As a quote that I actually found early on. And I can’t remember who said it, but it was like, do something that scares you every day. And no, because we’ve got this fear system that is ancient. It stems back to the caveman days when there was saber toothed Tigers that were about to pounce on us. So we had to be ready to run. And we call this the flight fright. Freeze syndrome, right? And we still have that same system, and our bodies, but we don’t have the saber toothed Tiger now, instead, we’ve got what does the neighbors say about us all? What does my family say? Or, you know, that is our fear system? Or what is that person in the office saying about me or whatever? Yeah, the ego of that, right? That’s our survival now is worried about what everyone else is, is thinking about us. And that fear isn’t often real. And we’ve learned in society these days are believed to, to live in their fear of what’s coming on time. And, you know, we’ve seen it in the media, we seen it in advertising. They know how our brain works. So that’s shoveling a whole lot of stress and fear, to get us to do what we need to do for society and their plan. Right. And we get manipulated by this idea of how our brain works through society. So, you know, we can look at something that seems to be Geary, and know that as a truth, is my life really in danger in this moment? If it’s not really in danger, then why can I step into it? And as we know, you know, going through a trauma like this, we’re talking about it earlier. This here, heaps of fear of the unknown. And that’s what all that’s what it is, it’s just fear of the unknown, because we haven’t experienced it before. And I love I think there’s a video of Will Smith jumping out of a plane and how, you know, he talked himself, just about out of that all night in a cold sweat, and then right to the next day, right up until he was about jump out. And, you know, he wanted to hang on, and when it didn’t want to do it, but he pushed himself through it. And as soon as he left that, that plane, he was calm, the fear gone. Because he was in the experience, and that’s when he should have had the fear because he was falling towards the earth, right. But the fear gone. So what does that tell us about our brain and how it works, you know, we allow our dreams to pass us by, because we’re scared of the unknown, of stepping into their dream, yes. Our dark nights or breaking my neck or, or whatever you’re going through that, that disease that you’ve got, or that whatever, you know, we have to face up to them. We have to, we can’t, can’t hope they’re gonna go away. We have to actually look at it. But we can also create a real clear vision of what we would love out of this experience. And start stepping into there with that fear.
Victoria Volk 34:32
And let me ask you about that vision. Because did you envision yourself doing the work that you’re doing today? Because I seriously just like, we’re done folks. Like, here’s Wayne forest, his TED talk. I mean, this is very inspirational to me. You’re very inspirational. I just feel it just out of your just through the screen. I can just feel your voice, the passion. I imagine it wasn’t always that way. And so What was the vision? Is it even better than you imagined?
Wayne Forrest 35:05
Maisie my own kind of brilliant life from a wheelchair. How does that work? And I, when I have my accident, I thought my life was over. Right? Because the one I knew up until that point was over, physically, you know, and so cracky How do I ask that question? It’s a great question. The first dream was to go back to their physical life, have fun, but once I achieved that, and you have to remember that farming was might love it was really, it still is I love farming. But once I achieved it, it was the journey of who I become, that created a new vision. And then, you know, I didn’t I wasn’t really clear like I am today. But that’s come with the journey and understanding that if I get really clear on what I would love, then wow. Those synchronicities when you start to get in alignment with who’s that is that your becoming? There’s a Hanton that for your listeners if they listen to that piece real Clifford. It’s who we become. We have to be who we become now, even though we haven’t become it. But when we do, our my golly, gosh, those synchronicities, really start to fall into place. And you end up having conversations like this one, that is just so bloody good. And that is the synchronicity I’ve been of just enjoying the journey and learning on the way by having a clear vision. Because once you achieve that vision, or that dream is always something even greater still, never settle. Never Settle.
Victoria Volk 37:06
I’m going to ask you a question. And I think anyone listening can apply it to them voice like, especially in grief that you know, there’s the event, this certain event, and I want my listeners if you’re listening to this think of an event in your life where that changed you significantly. Now I want to ask you Wayne, what would you say to version 1.0? Wayne 1.0. Knowing what you know now and I want my listeners to think of what what they would like to say to themselves because maybe this maybe an incident just took place for someone maybe they just had a loss that’s totally flipped their lives upside down. What do you want to say to yourself about your future? If you’re listening to this, and I want to ask you Wayne, what would you say to yourself? The Wayne version 1.0 being the version you are now today?
Wayne Forrest 38:12
it’s a beautiful question. And what comes to me is with a love loving heart and love I would give myself a huge hug and say you’ve gotten this you’ve gotten this each one of us has the same Bala that’s breathing us. I don’t care what you think. Or what you’re feeling. I know you’ve got this.
Victoria Volk 39:00
Think this is the most I’ve ever cried wipe tears away during a podcast interview. Oh says so much about your heart. Thank you so much for sharing. What has your grief taught you?
Wayne Forrest 39:19
To love myself more that grief is only there because there’s a part of you as her no one else has hurt you. It’s it’s it comes from a deep, painful scar. Have a young mind while young experience no other way It’s, we’re talking about the child in us. Their pain comes from an experience that we’ve had. And if you give that part of yourself more love you will start to heal that grief.
Victoria Volk 40:25
Do you still have bad days?
Wayne Forrest 40:28
Oh, I’ve totally man, I’m human. You know, I made a joke of that for the talk that I did a couple of days ago. You know, raise your hand. If you’ve had a challenge in life. If you’ve had a bad day in life, or half the crowd go put their hand up and ask them, Are you human? Raise your hand. Yeah, I knew there was a few that weren’t from this world, right? A few human going to have some bad days, as part of it. It’s not meant to be clean. Clinical, it’s meant to be messy, is meant to be messy. It’s, you know, where we’re all meant to do it messy. That’s the way we learn. Now, we’re all meant to fail. It’s as part of the process, they learn a lot from failure, you don’t learn a lot from success. As the failures you ask anybody that’s had incredible success in life. They’ve learned from their failures. And they’ve taken it on and keep failing until they’ve got it. Right. And it’s the same with trauma. It’s kind of be missing. Just step into it. Step into their miss, face up to it. Keep stepping into that unknown. keep stepping into it, because you’ve got a vision of heal, heal, that should be your vision of healing. What would that look like? What would that love look like for you? Create that strong, powerful vision and step into the unknown? Do it messy, do it ugly? Do it with tears. Do it with laughter do it with crying with yelling, do it with if you but do it.
Victoria Volk 42:41
So what does your work look like today?
Wayne Forrest 42:44
My this is what I teach. I love it. There’s nothing better than helping people heal and connect to their true self. I believe that each one of us is born genius. Each one of us has a skill sets something to give to this experience. And what I do is I help people get in touch in alignment with that, and start loving and to that and create a journey of a life that they can look back on and go. God I love my life. God, thank God for this journey.
Victoria Volk 43:30
Bless it right, bless ya. What gives you the most joy and hope for your future?
Wayne Forrest 43:41
Understanding now and that I have this incredible potential, and possibility I’ve got an incredible potential. Just like each age. So walking this earth, I’ve got incredible potential. That excites me, because my there’s a possibility of any thing could happen.
Victoria Volk 44:18
What is your vision look like now for the future? Do you want to share a goal of yours?
Wayne Forrest 44:26
Yeah yeah. What’s the latest one was the TEDx talk. And that was last year. This goal is to speak my truth to more people. And I and I don’t mind sharing this, but I want to speak to 1000s of people at one time, and I want people to to hear the message of my truth of that. You all have that same potential and possibility of having lives that you love. So I want to spread that message as big and wide as far and I believe it’s one that’s needed in this very crazy environment of fear leading us. I want people to, to create lives, they love, because I think that will help humanity go in a direction that we all want.
Victoria Volk 45:34
Never question for you. And I believe I already know the answer. But I want to hear how you answer it. If I had a magic wand, and I can reverse that day, and you would be that day would have happened like any other day, would you want me to reverse that day to change what happened?
Wayne Forrest 45:57
The ego does. With the level of awareness I have now I know that it’s even possible today for me to create
Wayne Forrest 46:12
That possibility, right? We know and quantum physics is possible. So don’t answer your question. I wouldn’t want to give up what I’ve learned. Because I know that now it’s possible that I can actually have have that miracle, or have that have that magic wand, as you said,
Victoria Volk 46:39
Oh, look at me putting limitations on you. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, that’s, that’s me asking you does, right?
Wayne Forrest 46:49
Yeah, but it’s also give me the witness? Well, no, actually, I don’t need that limitation, you know. So you can’t put any limitation on me. Right. So so it’s not about the question or that limitation? Because none of us have, we’re only limited by the way we think. And I know there’s more in that. And there’s probably a whole new podcast for that that subject. But I know that I have that awareness of that consciousness now, then that I’m only limited by the possibility that I think. So if I expand that thinking, and that possibility, then there’s so much more potential.
Victoria Volk 47:40
I just want to give people this idea to this thought to think about this. You don’t have to have a tragic accident, right? To, to have a life that you love to have become the best version of yourself to step into fear and to step into failure and to do all the things and accomplish all the things that you’ve have. Because of that accident. That didn’t have to happen for you to be who you are today. But it did. And rather than laying and decaying, you’ve gotten up and transformed your life, despite of it. But yeah, so what are your closing thoughts on that?
Wayne Forrest 48:30
Well, I think that’s beautiful. The Divide? No, take on what you’ve heard today, and love it. And to do that my closing thoughts would be look for the magic in life, you know, stay curious question every belief, because our belief system is what is limiting us. And our potential belief is a crazy thing that separates as well. So, you know, question, any belief, because if you question your beliefs, you’re going to find your truth.
Victoria Volk 49:12
Do you have any resource that you could share leave people with today?
Wayne Forrest 49:18
Well, I’ve got I’ve got a Facebook group, a private group that I’ve created just recently, and I’ve got a few challenges happening in that. I’ve got one coming out. But that depends when this is aired, but you can always join that it’s called Turning disability into a life of possibility and reach out on Facebook. When first Instagram went first in Zed. And look, you know, on most I, I’ve been growing my platforms, but I’m around
Victoria Volk 49:55
In the shownotes. I’ll have all your links. But I do want to mention, do you still have the resource on Your website the dream life blueprint?
Wayne Forrest 50:02
Yes, I do. That’s also another result. Another one, it’s a 15 minute recording, where I recommend, you know, just couple of times a day, morning and night. It’s a fantastic. It’s a beautiful little, if you like my voice, well, you know, it’s meditation of sorts, but it’s got the three elements. And there’s the vision, and that forgiveness, and that decision.
Victoria Volk 50:32
I love it. Anything else you would like to share?
Wayne Forrest 50:36
My night? I think we’ve, we’ve given so much, but just know that you have genius in you. And step into the unknown.
Victoria Volk 50:53
I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. You’ve inspired me, You’ve left me better than I was before I sat in this chair. So thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Death/Dying, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Spirituality |
Brent Scarpo | A Secret Sign & Lessons from The Shawshank Redemption
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Fear can hold you prisoner, hope can set you free. – The Shawshank Redemption
This week’s guest, Brent Scarpo, was a casting director for one of the most acclaimed and beloved films of all time, “The Shawshank Redemption.” Through his personal love of the film, he shares a few of his favorite lessons from the movie.
These lessons served him well as he grieved the loss of his best friend and mother to cancer. But a chance conversation with his mother years earlier would be the catalyst for comfort after she passed. They had agreed on a red balloon being the sign they would bring to the other so the one left behind would know there is life after death. They also created very specific rules around this sign and sealed the deal with handwritten letters preserving this conversation and plan in a sealed envelope that wouldn’t be opened until after one of them passed away.
Through his grief, Brent found comfort and healing through group and one-on-one therapy as well. But, the Red Balloon has become a huge part of his existence, landing him on the Today Show, and soon a book releasing, very fittingly, on Mother’s Day.
Brent offers many tips throughout this episode but there’s one question you may be surprised to learn the answer to. What’s the question? How do we learn to laugh again without the person we used to laugh with? The answer? You’ll have to listen to find out!
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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices if this is your first time listening, thank you. And if you’ve been listening for a while now, thank you as well and welcome back. Today. My guest is Brent Scarfo. He has over 30 years of experience as a national speaker, life coach, producer, writer, director, and casting director in Hollywood. He has worked on such well known films as The Shawshank Redemption, that thing you do Air Force One and Matilda additionally, Brent has presented 1000s of programs to high schools, colleges and corporate America, numbering well over 1 million participants. In addition, Brent was featured on The Today Show storytelling writing contest. Everyone has the story, where his story, the red balloon was chosen out of 100,000 entries. The red balloon story beautifully depicts the loving relationship of Brent and his mother and their fascination with life after death. Through many conversations, he and his mother created a plan to prove that in fact, there was life after death, the basis of the red balloon story, which has now become his book, The Red Balloon, how to transform your life one inspirational story at a time. Additionally, Brent is a life coach specializing in millennials, where he takes his years as a former casting director and marries it to his life coaching career and success pro in such programs as the 10 life coaching lessons, I learned casting the Shawshank Redemption. Thank you so much for your time and being here today.
Brent Scarpo 2:26
Well, thank you for that wonderful introduction. I so appreciate being here. And thank you for all that you do.
Victoria Volk 2:31
Yes, thank you for your time. Let’s I guess start with the red balloon and how, how this all came to be and about your mom. And
Brent Scarpo 2:42
Yeah, so my mother, I’m an intuitive life coach, Intuitive Life Coach is somebody that has a high level or we all have an intuition, but I’ve actually worked on it. So you know, it’s like anything else in the body, some muscle that once you flex it, once you strengthen, it just becomes stronger and stronger and stronger. So my mom and I are best friends. She’s a single mom that raised three kids by herself. Her name is Betty Scarfo. And I woke up at three o’clock in the morning one night, and I just I got a message, I got a message that my mother had had cancer. And she had just moved from Warren, Pennsylvania to California where I was living, she lived a few blocks away from me, actually. And I was so overwhelmed by that feeling that I didn’t even go to bed for the rest of the morning. So about eight o’clock, I called her and I said, Hey, Mom, I said when’s the last time you’ve had a physical? Right? I didn’t tell her about the dream. I choose not five years ago, when I left Pennsylvania to come here. And you know, we especially I think with women, we have this ability to take care of everybody else but ourselves. And I was like, Mom, you’ve got to look, I’m making an appointment for you. Right? Well, we made the appointment with my doctor, and everything was hunky dory, except for a chest X ray. And that’s when we found a dark mass the size of a half dollar. And unfortunately, my mother had lung cancer. So I listened to that voice. I listened to my intuition, right as an intuitive life coach, you know, I do programming with clients to help them create the best life possible, the best versions of themselves possible. And so I spent about two and a half years as my mother’s primary caregiver. I told her her only job was to eradicate cancer. And so, you know, I was really grateful because the doctor said, Boy, had you not come, you know, you probably would have would have had a lot less time. And so you just kind of went on this journey. And then, you know, it’s interesting. My mother was diagnosed in the end of 95. She had all of 96 and then on January 26 1997 13 days after her 59th birthday, and six days after my 33rd birthday, my mother unfortunately passed away. She her cancer just And metastasized to her brain. We did hospice, which is the greatest gift to mankind, I highly recommend for anybody who knows that they have to make a transition that you try to choose hospice is the way to make that transition. And years and years and years before that, my mother and I guess we were really good friends, we always talked about things very philosophical we’d ever break we are we call our weekly breakfast, or lunch, and I take her out, and we just talk. So we talked about death and dying, something that people really don’t talk about. And I think we need to talk about it. So I said to you earlier, I’m so grateful for what it is that you’re doing, because people don’t necessarily ties out your top 10 Though, in the last couple of years with COVID, we’ve almost been forced to talk about this. And so I remember, my mother’s one of our favorite bands, is the Beatles. And John Lennon, unfortunately, had just been assassinated. And I remember looking at the New York Times, and they talked about how Yoko Ono and he decided that they were going to come up with a sign so whoever would transition first, we’re bringing that sign back. And to them it was a yellow handkerchief. So I just happen to read the article to my mom and my mom goes, we should do that. Like we should. She was like, Yeah, I was like, Oh, I said, Okay. I said, we’ll we’ll How do we do? What are we going to do? She said, Well, you know, let’s pick assign, we’re just going to you and I, that’s it. And let’s just say that, you know, that person is responsible for bringing it back to the other person, it means that everything we’ve talked about that there is life after death, that there is a higher power of some sort, that there is an essence of who it is that you are, as far as your soul is concerned, when it leaves this earthly body is all true. I said, Okay, and so we decided on a red balloon. And primarily because when I was in second grade, there’s this wonderful French film
Brent Scarpo 6:49
Called La Rouge balloon, and it won an Oscar is phenomenal. And I said, let’s just do a red balloon. She said, Okay. And she said, but this is my mother. She said, It has to show up within 24 hours of the person’s death. Like none of this a month from now, six years from now, six months and now 24 hours. I was like, Okay, let’s, let’s do that. So we had always had this in the back burner for my we never shared it with anybody. And then as my mother was entering her transitional phase and hospice, you know, my grandmother came out my sister and brother and, you know, I kind of remembered it. And I, you know, finally as we’re getting closer, I thought I better sit everybody down and kind of tell them what we did, you know, X amount of years ago, just in case I’m not there when it happens. You know, the last thing I need is, you know, my grandmother who was 82 at the time to have a red balloon appear in front of her her have a heart attack, and I got two dead people on my hands. You know, I mean, it was really, it was getting close. So I sat him down. I said, Look, mom, and I did this thing. And if anything, just kind of quirky happens, the lights go on and offer just just know, it’s her. And I remember my grandmother saying, Well, what was the sign? I say, I just can’t tell you. I said I you know, I just, I just we’ve kept it for so many years. So I was in doing a play called the boys next door, where I played the part of a schizophrenic. Trust me, I had plenty to draw from. And I was really wondering, you know, when my mother passed in the middle of the run, you know, I told the director, I said, Look, I know the show must go on, but I might have just a few little hiccups. The final night. I was in Long Beach, California. I was living in Montrose at the time about two and a half hour drive. Curtain came down last show. I’m driving home. It’s one o’clock in the morning is pouring down rain. I remember, because it doesn’t rain in California. And this is back in the days of beepers. Remember those? And my sister paged me, right? And I pull it off to the side of the road because there’s no iPhones. And I called her and she said, Mom just passed away. I was like, wow, you know, the last curtain call. So I got home and walked in my grandmother, my sister were there. And, you know, I’m the oldest of three kids. So, you know, I think a lot of how we grieve is also based on so many factors, whether we’re men, whether we’re women, whether the oldest child, the youngest child, whether we had a relationship with the person that you passed, or didn’t What kind of relationship was there, as you well know, there’s so many factors. So, you know, I made sure that they were okay. And then, you know, you’re walking over to your dead mother, you know, 59 years old, my best friend, and I just didn’t know how I was going to handle this. I you know, this is my, my first experience with this right, as I said to many people, my mother’s never died before, you know. So, I’ve walked over and as it’s depicted in the today’s show, I leaned over to kiss her on the forehead. And as I went to do that, because she had the hospital sheet up to about her chest, I just saw this little flicker of color I don’t know why I noticed it. But I did. And for some reason I took my hands I pulled the sheet down. And they’re imprinted on my mother’s blue sweatshirt with this huge bouquet of red balloons. I literally went from pure pain, like I’ve never felt and grief that was about to feel to a static joy. And I was I was so taken aback. I was like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I said, Oh, my God, you did it. And I was screaming around the room. I was like, You did it. Oh, my God. Like my mother didn’t wait 24 hours. She Wait 24 seconds. Right? She didn’t. I mean, this was her personality. And I remember my grandma yelling at me. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? I said, the sign the sign. Remember what I told you about? She said, Yes. It’s a red balloon. Where did this sweatshirt come from? Right? Because I lived above my sister, my sister was the medical caretaker. So she did all the morphine and all that crazy stuff. And my sister said, Oh, my God. My mother been in hospice for about 36 days. And my sister got up that morning. And she had realized that she hadn’t really changed my mother in a few clean about three, four days. And my mother was just hideous about changing her clothes and being clean. So she’s like, Oh, he couldn’t do it by herself. So she called the nurse she says, anyway, you can stop by today, you know, this morning and help me change mom and bather and the nurse like, we’re so sorry, but we have a major emergency here at the hospital. I can’t. So my sister being my sister, got really frustrated. She walked into her bedroom, she picked up the first sweater that was on top of the pile that I brought 36 days ago from upstairs because she was living my mom with me. She just wrangled her top off, put that tarp on, decided that she wasn’t going to try and do the bottoms. And that was the shirt. And that night, as well. My mother passed away.
Victoria Volk 11:53
Wow I know. I had goosebumps.
Brent Scarpo 11:58
It’s just, you know, and I will say this to you as well. And I shared with you that my red balloon book, it’s a life coaching book has taken me 10 years to do, it’s going to come out on Mother’s Day. It’s official Mother’s Day 2022. Because I’ve been working on this, as I say bottle of wine for 10 years. So when will you uncork it is going to be delicious, that kind of deal. But I’m going to do an anatomy book on you step by step instruction on how you can do this as well, because one of the things that we did is just to prove all this. Because I said to my mom, I said well, you know, if we can’t say anything to anybody, how are they? How are they going to believe us? Right? And she said, Oh, no, no, she she brought that up as well. And I had this idea. So I wrote out the scenario, the red balloon and all that. I put it in an envelope. I mailed it to she and I and then it was post stamped. Right. So then after you’re done, and we’re going through that grieving process, and these are these tokens that you have, in an effort to get through the grieving process, I just at one point in time, decided to open it up and share it with everybody in my immediate family is like, look, this is what we did during the death of John Lennon. And we’ve been planning this for years. And it was really nice. And you know, there was a number of witnesses, which I’m really grateful for. And then my mother chose to be cremated. And I remember the crematorium saying, Is there anything you want in with her? You know, I guess you can do sir. And I decided to do that letter. You know, we’d all seen it. And so I said, Yeah, I had this letter died, like look like to give you. So it was I don’t know, it just gave me a lot of peace to help me with my grieving process. It was something that we did very proactive. And the beauty of this is that, you know, this is something anybody can do. Anybody can do. You know, even since then, I mean, there’s a whole book just on red blue sightings I’ve had since 19 9700s. You know, whenever I’m feeling a little down, I’ll say, Mom, if I could get a red balloon, this would be really great. Right? It just happened recently. You know, I was actually on my computer here. And I had asked for it a couple days ago and I turned around and you know, the TV’s on. And there’s this old show Hogan’s Heroes. What was my mother’s favorite one of our favorite shows, and there’s Schultz, literally, with a bouquet of red balloons in his hand and a teddy bear and thank God I grabbed my phone, and I took a picture of it. And I put it on Facebook I said for all my red balloon fans yet again, my mother proves that there is life after death. So it’s been a it’s been an amazing journey that I’m really excited about sharing with the overall public next year. So the goal is to have the book come out tour all over the United States raise monies for charities and just get people to be a little bit more peace with this thing called grieving a death and dying and that you can plan for it. You know, people just write a will and they think that’s all you can do. No, no, no, there’s so much more you can do.
Victoria Volk 14:53
And as an end of life doula I can say to that you have a lot of choice in that you because you can, there are things that you can do or add into the dying process as the person dying. I mean down to what you want the environment like who do you want to visit you or not visit you, you know what kind of legacy you can create a legacy project as a family. And in a way, like, that’s kind of what you did like this legacy. Not a project, but this legacy. That became a project, right? It was this idea that is now almost a legacy project in a way.
Brent Scarpo 15:30
Yeah, we were, we didn’t know what we were doing. You know, my mother was people. Yeah, we just kind of did. I mean, obviously, now you’re looking at here we are in 2021. And I did something well, nobody knows this, you’ll be the first to hear this. So I spoke to you earlier that I have this adoptive grandmother, and unfortunately, she passed away on Valentine’s Day from from COVID, and some other complications. And I’ve known her for 26 years. And as you will know, you know, the grieving process doesn’t have to be over a human being, it could be over a puppy, it could over be your 401 K just went down to zero. It can be you know, a best friend or, you know, so many different types of losses of divorce. And so, I came out here just because I promised Edna, who’s the adoptive grandmother that I would look in on their daughter, they have an only child and the two granddaughters. So I’ve been here for a couple of months. But it didn’t start out that way. Because I live in Palm Springs, and I’m from Warren, Pennsylvania. So I got here and I drove right, I drove all 2467 miles and I have been to my mother’s grave site, which is still a tiny little town. It’s got a hill, you know, the first year to your point, you know, we did the candles, you pay for the candles on her on the day she died her birthday. We did the wreath during Christmas. And I think we did that for the first two years. And then I’ve been back a couple different times because it’s you know, it’s on the other side of the of the United States. But my goal really was to visit it because I realized that January 26, will be 25 years, right? So to your point, not only can you plan before you pass away, then during the process, what do you want to what do you want that to look like or be like, you know, I was just flying off the seat of my pants, one of the your point, environmental things I did was she will never be alone, right? There will be somebody around her holding her hand 24 hours a day, seven days a week through the entire process until she dies, she will never she’ll I said that people volunteer, do not walk out of a cigarette, she can not be left alone for let know, for 10 seconds is 20 seconds too long, right? It’s just that was sort of the some of the parameters that I put together, not knowing there are other things that you can do. And so I realized I was about seven and a half hours away from here. So I just got back. And I went and visited my mother. And I’m going to actually put it on Facebook and YouTube and such on January 26. But here we are 25 years later, and I went to her grave site and it’s overgrown. You know, the bronze is all just as dark as dark as it could be. And I remember going on to YouTube, and there’s really great organizations that go to VA cemeteries and headstones. And they just redo them, you know, for the military. And so I got these great ideas. I spent three days and let me tell you, my mother’s gravesite is the bomb. It’s just beautiful. It’s like, but again, you know, cuz she was cremated. So her ashes are there. But for me, it was yet another way of being able to process my feelings. Here we are 25 years later, clearly, I’ve gone through the seven stages of grief. But I look at this now. And it’s I mean, might I say it is the most beautiful grave site in the entire War Memorial Cemetery. Because you know, you can do that. So there’s the before there’s a during and there’s an after.
Victoria Volk 18:51
I’m just curious, so she was a veteran?
Brent Scarpo 18:54
No so no. Question. No. So what I did was is I was just going to go visitor, that’s it, right? And then there’s this website called Find a grave.com. Right? So because I worked in the entertainment industry for many years, you literally can go on to this websites completely free of charge. And you can find, I’m telling you pretty much anybody’s grave, anybody’s celebrity or non celebrity. And so, you know, I’ve seen like, you know, different celebrities and things and I know there’s YouTube videos and I’m you know, this is me, but I love cemeteries I love walking in because I think it’s quiet. I’d love when it says 1609 to 17 something, it’s just I don’t know, there’s something peaceful for me, it’s my thing. So I thought well, I wonder if my mother’s is there. So it was somebody took a picture and they put it up there. And I remember seeing how dilapidated it was. So I was like, Okay, I’m going to drive out there. You know, so 25th Memorial, and so you God bless YouTube. I went on there just to see well, how, how do you clean the bronze? So there was this guy. And there’s these groups. And what they do is they travel all over the United States, and they specifically clean military headstones. And I saw that YouTube, and I just saw the techniques that they use. So it was that YouTube that sparked the idea for me, but I thought how wonderful. There’s actually organizations all over the country, and they just volunteer and they go to all these different, you know, vet that memorials and headstones. And I’ve seen dozens and dozens and dozens of them. So no, she wasn’t a vet. But that I was when I was researching and I saw you get this bottle of this stuff. You do this, use this scrub, if it’s bronze, you do this, if it’s a headstone, you do this, I’m like, Okay, I’m taking notes down. And I literally had all my stuff put in the back of the car. And it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful.
Victoria Volk 20:53
That’s, that’s a really good tip. And I’m actually going to if you can send me that link. I’ll put it in the show notes for others, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, great. But also that the tutorial on how to
Brent Scarpo 21:05
Yeah, yes, great. I’m telling you, I looked at probably half a dozen and this one, right before I left, because, you know, for the most part, it my mother’s is it’s a bronze plaque plaque that’s in the ground versus a headstone. But they have that. But I mean, they tell you, like, you know, you know, to get 25 years of organic matter off the concrete, there’s a certain formula you use, and then, you know, cutting it away. And then there’s this guy, he’s got the tombstone cleaner, starter kit. So I bought that off of amazon.com. And, you know, as you said, the before and after pictures, but yeah, I’ll send you a bunch of links. There’s, there’s just, I mean, it’s weird. You think that like, like, in my brain, I’m like, No one does this, I’m but I’m going to do it. And then because of technology, where we can use technology to our advantage versus our disadvantage, you go online, and I literally, I’m telling you, you probably saw a dozen people, there was these two ladies, they were funny as all Caboose, and they did a whole, like, you know, they had to edit it, right was step by step they had, they brought out a picnic basket, they did the blanket, you know, they sprayed the thing, they’re like, oh, my gosh, this really smells bad. No wonder it cleans everything off. I mean, really, for what is, you know, could be a very sad time, you know, and then the before after pictures, and there was this is one I looked at, oh, this was really, you know, again, for me, it was really nice to do this, because it helps me process my own feelings in regards to having her her been passed for 25 years. So I saw one more and the guy was doing the whole thing cut around the grass, take, you know, get a get a spatula or whatever, the garden, do all this. And then he was redoing his son’s marker, because his son passed when he’s like two or three. So it was like, Oh my gosh. So you know, and he’s just, it wasn’t bad. But he got rid of all the grass. And then he dug like a four inch trench around the entire marker. And he’d lined it with this netting. And then he put it in white gravel. And I was like, that’s what I’m doing. Like, it was so beautiful. And then I hear I don’t I don’t know if I can even do this. Let’s let’s just see what we can do with technology. If it’s even possible. All right. We’ll see. We’ll see if we can see. We’ll see if we can see this on. On the wonderful. You too. Right. So I don’t know if I can even be seeing probably a little bit Oh, I’ll link to Okay, that’d be great. And then it? Yeah, I’ll send you the pictures and such. And that’s, that’s what it turned out to be. Yeah, the before and after, but yeah, I’ll, I’ll I’ll send you the pictures. And you can post them however you likes as people use so people can see, this is yet another thing that you can do afterwards. And just the I was on a, an all time high for good three, four or five days because it took so much work. And it really was painful, but it also joyful at the same time. And it was arduous and but it just felt so good to be able to do that for her 25 years later.
Victoria Volk 24:15
Well, and I think it’s a good point to mention, just because the fact especially if you’re the caregiver, or caretaker of someone, and you know, grief and of itself is if you think of grief, it’s like a change in behavior, like a familiar pattern of behavior. And so if you wake up every day and your first thought is what you’re going to do or what you need to do to care for your loved one who’s dying, and then they pass away and you wake up the days after that it’s that is a change in your behavior. You’re no longer waking up to care for that person. And so that’s added grief, right? Like what do you do with you, you know, you just you took some may find some relief and then you also but then again that can be conflicting because you feel bad then because you’re relieved because that, you know that that responsibility is no longer there and you feel guilty because that responsibility is no longer there.
Brent Scarpo 25:10
Well and even to your point, I’ll be very transparent. So one of the things that I did is, you know, as my mom was going through hospice, and they were wonderful, they gave us the names and numbers of different grief groups, and I chose to, I made a conscious choice. And I, I don’t care if it’s a grief group, I don’t care if it’s a life coach, such as me. But you know, the greatest advice I can give any person that goes through the grieving process, I don’t care what it is that you lose is not to do it alone. Do not do it alone. I went to therapy once a week with this wonderful chaplain, I went to group therapy one to two times a week for two years, that was like my gift to myself, right? Because I spent two and a half years, you know, working with my mom, and then it was just sort of amazing what you find out to your point, you know, I had to have this job. This is a job for two and a half years caring for my mother day and night. Right. And then when it was done, I was like, What do I do now? Like, like, I had gotten a rhythm, I got a rhythm, I hardly slept, my immune system was an all time high. And I remember when she finally passed, and I got to the grave site came back to California about two, two and a half weeks later, never been so sick. My immune system just said, okay, you’ve been on this roll, dude, for two and a half years, we need to relax. And, you know, again, I just employ all your listeners that just don’t do it alone. I mean, I think the greatest emotional challenge I faced in my grieving process was, and I didn’t really know this consciously. But it came up and it was painful, painful, is that, I realized that in my mind that I had failed. See, as my mother’s caregiver, my unconscious, said to me, your job is to save her. Well, I failed, I failed. And I’m a man. So that just adds a lot of, you know, stuff and layers because, you know, we’re the, we’re the, we’re the, we’re the we’re the caveman that go out there, and we get the food, and we help out the family. And that’s our role. And I really struggled with the idea that I didn’t save my mom. And then through really great counselors and such I came to realize it wasn’t my job to save my mother from cancer. Well, my job was to love her as best as I possibly could. And then finally came to the understanding that in that job, I was quite successful.
Victoria Volk 27:48
That’s a very good reframe. Imagine, well imagine how many people are torturing themselves with that same, that same story?
Brent Scarpo 27:57
It’s, it’s when that came up, I mean, I can I can, I can see the chaplain and, you know, and she was just, you know, this quiet denier kind of woman and she’s like, What do you, you know, do you ever blame yourself for not, you know, that your mom died? I was like, Okay. Never really addressed that question before. Why is that coming up? Right. And then all these feelings just came up. But um, I was like, yes. You know, I’m the eldest child. I’m, you know, my mom’s a single mom. There’s no husband or father, of course, I’m supposed to save her. And yes, I failed. I failed, I failed, I failed. And then through working with her, we were able to reframe it in a way that that was my, that wasn’t my job. You know, is it? Is it our job to save the person who’s going through this process? Or is it our job just to love them and be with them as best as we possibly can?
Victoria Volk 28:48
Yeah. So growing up, you mentioned it was a single household and things and so your dad was never in the picture?
Brent Scarpo 28:58
Yeah so my parents divorced when I was four. We were I was born in Pennsylvania, raised in California, but my father was a alcoholic, unfortunately, and so a bit of a narcissist. And so my mom being, you know, this is the late 60s or early 60s rather. And so she took it upon herself that I have three children, you know, I need to, you know, be there and have their best interests in mind. And so then she moved all of us back to Pennsylvania where her parents lived. And so yeah, he was never really in the picture. There’s one story about him, which is probably another show, because he didn’t show up one time, which was a very interesting time when I was 21. But no, for the most part, you know, she was a single woman at three raised three kids by herself, you know, way before the internet way before you know all that stuff. I like to say that she paved the road for a lot of these women that you know, are trying to get child support from the various people that keep evading it for some reason and, you know, laying down the laws that were necessary so that you know, these women And men can make sure that, you know, they’re getting the support that they need both, you know, financially, emotionally, psychologically, physically, you know, from the from the relationship.
Victoria Volk 30:09
Did any of those feelings from that loss of not having him in your life come up when your mom passed?
Brent Scarpo 30:17
Yeah, that’s a great question. No, and I think so funny, I really have addressed this. You know, when I moved to California, which is in 1985, it was a couple of years after that, that my mother had called me and she said, I know this was a little strange, but you know, I got a call from one of the relatives and your father passed away. Right? And I was like, Oh, okay. You know, and so, you know, I, again, you know, I, I have memories of him from zero to four, but never really had any kind of time with him. And so, you know, I shared that with my sister. The interesting thing is that my sister just burst into tears, which that sort of blew my mind. And then for me, and we sat and talked, you and I, we processed it together. And, you know, I think, because she’s the only girl, there was never that daddy figure. There was no, that father figure that I know, girls really long for and I think her grieving process was the possibility that that could be. And now that was gone. For me. It was interesting, because I’m one part I thought, Should I be crying? I was like, because I’m not, you know, and, and I explored, and I said, Well, you know, I don’t have any time with you, I don’t have life experiences with this person. I don’t have memories of this person. So, you know, I don’t have the ability to grieve over something that did not exist. Right. Was I sorry, they died. Sure. But to answer your question, I don’t think so. Because he had passed. And because I reconcile all of that, there really wasn’t, he was so out of my mind. Now that I think about I mean, that was the last person I was thinking about, you know, my, my focus is really about this woman who, you know, left this man to take on the responsibility of raising three children as best as she possibly can. And for me, it was like, Okay, I’m going to, I’ll share this story with which I think epitomizes this, I think, you know, because there are two types of dying, as you know, the one we know that’s coming. And the one that’s a surprise, you know, I had a friend that died in the Twin Towers, that was a shock. That was a surprise, right? My mother had 36 days in hospice, we could prepare for that. So those are the two forms of dying. And I remember when the neurologist came in and said, Look, your mother’s lung cancer has metastasized to her brain. And there’s nothing we can do the worst sentence in the human language, I think. And so you wrap your head around what that means. It’s like, oh, oh, oh, she’s gonna die. Okay, you didn’t say it out loud. But I was, I got what you were referring here, right? So you go through the process of what you’re going to do. And so because of my mother’s insurance, and so I said, Well, you can do you know, we can put her in a nursing home that deals with this kind of thing. Or you can do hospice, I never heard of hospice before, right? So we get all the details. And I sit down with my sister and brother, because you know, this is where then it gets really sticky. Because depending on your family dynamics, depending on how much money there is, depending on what your morals and values and ethics are each person that comes to the table when you have this transition. So I remember sitting down with them and saying, This is going to happen, you know, how do we want this to happen? And I decided as the oldest that we just be very democratic and whatever, you know, the two out of three, you know, versus being my way, because I know me. So So what do you think my sister the whole nursing home? My brother goes a nursing home, I’m like, Oh, my God. Like, that’s the last thing my mother wanted. I mean, she I said, we, you know, mom never wanted to be in it. She said, If anything should ever happen, please, oh, God, don’t put me in a nursing home. Well, they, you know, just decided to forget that part. Right. So I sat down, we just had the dialogue and the dialogue and the dialogue about it. And I knew, right, just with my work, I knew that it wasn’t about my mother, going into hospice and or going into a nursing home. What it was about was the fear that they were going to face if she was going to be in hospice and actually being proactive in the process. So if you put her in the nursing home and somebody else does it, if you put it right, and I went, Okay, so this is what I said to them, and it worked. And I I don’t even know, this is my intuitive self. I said, Look, I’ll make you a deal. Because we were at an impasse. I’ll lead this you don’t have to be there, 24/7. But I want your assistance, I want you to be there because I want you to be part of the process all leave this, let’s just do this. Let’s do hospice, let’s do hospice this time. And then I said, and this Hi, mom dies, we’ll do the nursing home. And he just looked at me.
Brent Carpio 35:18
And he’s like, What do you mean? I said, because this is the first time she’s going to do this, we get one chance. And I’m just afraid we’re gonna pick the wrong one. And they decided that we would do hospice,
Victoria Volk 35:30
That’s a good reframe to specialize in reframing.
Brent Scarpo 35:35
You know, it’s just like, oh, you know, so? Yeah.
Victoria Volk 35:39
The reason why I asked about your father and stuff is because grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative. And I know you said that, you know, your grief experience with that was very different from your sisters. And you had mentioned something, and I just want to come back to it, because I think it’s important for anyone listening. And what you had said was, you can’t grieve something for someone that wasn’t there. To that effect, you had so
Brent Scarpo 36:04
Much well, and what I mean by there is that, you know, so much of our grief comes out of the memories and the life experiences that we had with the individual, right? That whole process, the good, the birthday parties, the vacations, the all that stuff, right. My father was in my life, like, I didn’t have those experiences I never talked to him. You know, I remember a form that says, so there’s this space that has no life experiences whatsoever with him. So there’s no memories of being able to say, oh, my gosh, I miss when he put me on his shoulders, and we went to the playground together. Now, I had already, I think, in my mind dealt with the grief of not having a father, right, and especially going in the 60s because, you know, look, when I was in first grade, there were 32 students, I’ll never forget this Urbandale elementary school, there are 32 students out of 32 students in 1968, I was the only one that came from divorced parents. Now, look at it, there’s probably one or two people that even have parents are still together the same number. So for me, I think I went through the grieving process of realizing that I was not going to have a father over the course of time of my teen years and early adult years. So by the time I learned the died, I had been through those seven stages, right? You know, the whole shock and denial and pain and guilt. And well, why don’t have a father and my mom and I, we had dozens and dozens and dozens of conversations about my dad. Right? So she was very open and transparent, authentic about that what it was about. So I think by the time I got to that I was good, because I had gone through those stages of what it meant not to have a father in my life. Whereas my sister hadn’t. You know, my sister was still holding on to the hope that he was going to come back. So when that hope
Victoria Volk 37:51
Yeah, and that’s what I wanted to mention. Oh yeah, please grief. Grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. And anything we wish would have been different, better or more.
Brent Scarpo 38:00
Well said. Yeah. My sister right there.
Victoria Volk 38:03
Yeah exactly. So that’s why I just kind of wanted to circle back to that. Why some. And because everybody’s relationship is unique and individual, right? So even, you know, that’s, that’s where two people in the same household can have very different experiences.
Brent Scarpo 38:19
I was shocked when she burst into tears. I was like, because the then my sister is a very controlling individual. She controls her emotion, very, very aware. Well, so not only it wasn’t that she cried, but I was like, you don’t cry. Like this is the Okay, I need to sit down. I’m sitting down. And, you know, she sat down. I said, Okay, we got to processes a little bit. So, but to your to what you just shared? You’re absolutely correct.
Victoria Volk 38:46
And you said something there. And I want to highlight this too, is that at some point with grief, either we implode or we explode. And so that is full expression that unexpected expression of grief could have been years and I were not analyzing or judging but I just to give people an understanding of why that could happen. Or where that comes from is when we spend so many years stuffing, stuffing, stuffing stuffing, we either implode or we exploit either our health deteriorates, or we outwardly express it with anger, turning to food or drugs or alcohol or relationships, things like that. And so I just wanted to, to highlight that too, for people listening.
Brent Scarpo 39:28
Yeah, I agree with you. 100% I think I think even in my two years of my grieving I there was not drugs or anything like that. But there. I think we all adopt certain behaviors and an effort to deal with, you know, whatever particularly is happening in our lives emotionally, especially as it relates to grieving. So I think we all have that. It’s just, you know, to our earlier conversation, this is why I say don’t do this alone, right to isolate yourself and sit in the dark with the lights off and just mourn over the person that you loved. I mean, I remember are, you know, it was so telling, I remember when my mom passed, right? And then you know you we have a number we call, you know, the come and pick her up. And it was just such a great experience because it was my grandmother, my sister and my mother. And the two gentlemen that came to take my mother’s body, you know, we’re just sitting there like, I’ve never done this before. And he said, Listen, you know, command make a suggestion. I said, sure. He said, Why don’t you spend some time with her, but then I’m going to suggest that maybe you go into the bedroom, because what we have to do to prepare her may not want may not want to be the last memory you have of her. And I was like, I got it. Right. I seen enough movies. And I was like, okay, yeah. So we did our thing went inside the bedroom, right sat there for about 10 minutes, he knocked on the door, he said, we’ve taken her and we will take care of her. I mean, he was so amazing. I mean, these are the two guys that take her to the morgue. That’s what they do. But how he did it was just so amazing. So by that time, then the nurse came in. And she was sitting us down talking all that. And so she said we’re which you know, again, when she said it was weird. She said, where is all the medicine and the morphine and such I said, Oh, I have it all organized over here, right? The next thing I knew, she took out this garbage bag. And she started going rifling through our stuff, what we’ve paid for in the bag, taking the pills and the morphine. And I was like I said, scuze me, what are you doing? She’s Oh, we have to take this. I said, No, you don’t. I said, that’s our stuff we paid for? No, we have to take it. When you sign that you are going to do hospice, this is part of the process. I said, Well, you really need to explain yourself. And she sat me down, she said, because we have so many instances where the husband loses the wife, and then they make the call. And we come back to two bodies. So we’re going to take away everything that may allow you to cause harm to yourself. And then she gives you the numbers of the counselors and the group therapy and the chaplain. Right? What a learning curve. What I was like, wow,
Victoria Volk 42:17
In my end of life, doula training, that was one thing that wasn’t said, actually.
Brent Scarpo 42:22
So I have a job, I would add that
Victoria Volk 42:26
The one thing that was said was as the loved ones, and the person that’s trans going to be transitioning, you can choose to wash their body, right? And you know, as a person dying, you can choose if you want your body washed or not. And do you want your whole body washed or just your face? Or you know, and I think that’s where it’s not. I think we’re so afraid of the dying process in general, I think hospice actually gives an opportunity to be a part of the process.
Brent Scarpo 43:02
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s, I mean, I, in the two years, I did the glue therapy and such I remember being on it was some kind of, well wouldn’t be a webinar, but they were able to put it together. But I remember whoever invented hospice, they were doing this talk, they were one of the guests, and it was just fascinating to hear this person back in the day. Because I was really in it to win it. Yeah, at that time. I was like, okay, you know, I’m going through this process, I, you know, didn’t become a grief counselor, per se, but we took courses to allow me to at least help facilitate and, and such. So it’s a well, it gives you that ability to be part of to be proactive, versus we can just come to a nursing home and we go and visit her for an hour each day. And then we come home and we live our lives. But to me that would just have added more angst to the grief process for us. Had we chosen that route.
Victoria Volk 43:59
I’m going to share something too, just because I have a podcast episode coming out soon with Ken Ross. And by the time this airs, I’ll link to it in the show notes. But Ken Ross is Elisabeth Kubler Ross is son. I think who you’re talking about is his mother. She Yes. She was the pioneer.
Brent Scarpo 44:19
Yeah yes, yes, yes. Yes, that’s exactly right. Your app. I love it. I love the synchronistic moment that we’re having right now. You’re I couldn’t pull it. You’re absolutely correct. You’re absolutely I remember so well.
Victoria Volk 44:32
She was the trailblazer for hospice and palliative care. But actually, you said to the seven stages of grief and she’s known for the five stage five stages. Exactly right. But it’s actually not five stages. It’s actually she talked about 10 different emotions, because really, they’re not even stages. They’re kind of like these, like an emotional scale that doesn’t go in like this linear.
Brent Scarpo 44:57
No, it’s yeah, you’re absolutely right. I You know, I mean, because of the two years I spent, I mean, so to your point, ironically, we were able to bring this all together. Yeah, it was the five. And then, you know, as I continued to do research, it was like the seven. And then you know that this is not, you know, this is more like, what someone would call it, it was a universal roller coaster where you go up and then to the side, and then you go back again. And then you then you get to the top and then the roller coaster goes in reverse and you’re one and then you go to seven, then you go to the three and yeah, it’s all individualistic.
Victoria Volk 45:32
She her work. And Ken and I talked about this, too. It’s there’s so much more to her work than that. It was talked about so much at one point, she just didn’t even want to talk about it. Like it was like, that’s all anybody like social, like the media. That’s what everybody latched on was her brand. That was her. And her work was just so much more than that. I can imagine. Yeah. So anyway, I just
Brent Scarpo 45:58
Want to listen to that. I’m excited. You have to send that to me.
Victoria Volk 46:01
Next, that’s next week, Tuesday. It’s coming out. Oh, nice.
Brent Scarpo 46:04
Okay I will be there. Actually, not
Victoria Volk 46:05
Next week. Tuesday. Today’s Monday, tomorrow?
Brent Scarpo 46:09
Yeah, okay, I got I got it on my list of things to do.
Victoria Volk 46:12
Okay so back to you. And I just, I’m going to share this because, and I meant to share this earlier when you were talking about red balloon. And we’ll circle back to that. Because I had had a medium psychic medium reading for the first time earlier this year. And, and it was my dad passed away when I was eight. So it’s been well over 30 years. And I have never had a reading. And so one of the things I’d asked for after that reading, which was I think in April this year, if I’m remembering correctly, just maybe two months after that. I had asked for a red balloon. Oh, oh, I did not get it. I did not get it or see it or be open to seeing it until you submitted your application to be on my podcast.
Brent Scarpo 47:08
Oh, my goodness Well, this, I curious if you’re open to this, you don’t have to share? Can I ask who your meeting was that we who did reading
Victoria Volk 47:18
Siri Bernsen? I did a podcast interview with her. She was on my podcast to.
Brent Scarpo 47:24
Okay, so so we’re really gonna have a synchronistic moment here. So one of the one of the reasons but so we’re in I live in Warren, Pennsylvania. And so we’re really close for about maybe 20 minutes away from the New York state border lines. And there’s this little town called Lily Dale, New York. Lilydale has been around for years, it’s considered one of the top 10 Psychic towns in the United States. And my mother and her best friend were always go there. You know. I mean, they’ve got the mediums, they’ve got the psychics, all that. And now they do workshops, and they have conservatory. I mean, it’s just incredible. So my mother was very much into it. So we share this. Fast forward, I moved to California. And, you know, I look, I’m a believer in many paths, you just have to prove it to me. I mean, seriously. And this is also featured in my book. So there’s a whole thread. But a really good friend of mine said she’s like, you know, look this guy, you know, his name is James from Prague. He is this evidential medium, and, you know, I met him recently. He’s, I think you really like him. And so long story short, you know, James on Prague, who’s written 10, New York Times best seller books, you know, in the late, probably 80s, early 90s. He was the he was the guy, he had his own talk show. I mean, just phenomenal. But he at that time was just, you know, this guy that was doing, you know, like, to your point, he was doing readings, and and she called my friend, she said, Oh, he’s doing this gathering, let’s go. And you know, it’d be these gatherings of, you know, four or 500 people, he would do samplings and then, you know, people would hire him to do readings at his home. So I signed up, I signed up what the heck, I you know, I was it was fascinating. So, this was in, let me see, if I get this right here, maybe for like three minutes, like around 1990. So I do my reading, right? It’s all tape recorded and such. And it was phenomenal. It was phenomenal. Because he’s an evidential medium, and there are cons and there are real people. There are scams, and I do believe people have gifts. But what was really interesting is that he I pulled up in front of his house in Hollywood, and he lived in a city area of Hollywood is in East Hollywood. And I just sat there I was like, Oh, this is going to be really, you know, kind of deal you know, and so, and my father had passed by this time and my mother had moved to California. So I saw go up. I knocked the door here. because at the door, he’s a short little man with a mustache. And he said, Oh, come on, can we can manage to get a glass of water? This is pre computers, right? Because now it’s a little difficult in terms of authenticity, because you know, everyone blames psyches for googling people, right? Because we have, we can do that. Now. There was no Google, there was nothing. There was no computer. I mean, very little computers. So we sat down, we’d like to kind of we do the prayer. And he looks at me, he goes, he goes, Are you a little nervous? And I said, Well, I said, I’m open to this. Trust me. He knew about Lilydale. He said, Well, your father’s here. Well, that was the last person that I thought was going to come through. I was like, you know, and he’s saying to you that you sat outside for about 20 minutes, because you’re worried about what would happen if your dad came? I sat outside for 20 minutes in the car thinking that very thoughts, right. And then he kept he kept saying things that, like nobody knew, like nobody on the planet knew but me. And to me, it was really interesting, because clearly in the spirit world, there’s no sense of time. Because your dad, he said, Oh, my God, your dad’s laughing. Was he laughing at? He says, laughing because, you know, he saw you sneaking out the bedroom window and sitting on the roof, looking at the stars. Will. I did that when I was seven. But they divorced when I was four. I said, Well, how does he know that? He said, Oh, time is, is there’s no such I was like, and nobody know I’d never even told my mother. I used to do that. Right? Well, then we get done. And he goes, we’re in the middle of and he said, Hey, do you need a job? I said, Excuse me. He thought my 13 foot Indian guy just got in the front of the line that the people are they’re here to see you. It sounds so sweet. Give you a job. Let’s talk about afterwards. I became James on Pogs first personal assistant for two years. So go read that. Yeah, my, my path has been very interesting. I mean, I remember the last. I remember the last appointment, because then I was going on to do Shawshank Redemption, right? And had to put my notice, and in the last appointment, he’s always nice, someone coming. It’s okay. I’m gonna go take a walk. And so there’s a knock on the door and I open the door and there stands shear. And she’s like, I have the right place is this changed on Prague? And I said, Oh, Michelle.
Brent Carpio 52:22
Dave, I said, Yes, you do. And she, she said, she had a jaguar. She said, It’s my, it’s my car safe out there. I said, Oh, I said, I’ll watch it. Don’t bother. So got her in Saturday down, got her some water. James came, took her upstairs did her thing. I watched a jaguar. And that was my last last time working with him. But for two years, you know, I worked with him. And, you know, he taught me and you know, I experienced all of that. So yeah.
Victoria Volk 52:53
So do you feel like, I mean, intuition, like, as a kid, like, did you have, you know, worked on it. But you know, so many of us, and especially when we’re grieving or in grief, we it’s really hard for us to tap into our intuition.
Brent Scarpo 53:10
Well, it’s okay. It’s not hard to tap into it, because it’s always there. Right? What’s difficult is believing that you have our brain gets in the way. Oh, we all have it. I do this with my life coaching clients all the time. So I’ll give you great examples. Because this is what I try to do is, is that they’ll hire me and I said, Well, you have all the answers. You’re just not listening to him. They’re like, What do you mean? I said, No, no, you do we all do. But how do we choose to listen to we choose? Look, I remember when James had a reading, and he had this guy. And what I loved about James is when he if he says it’s you, and there’s a woman here that has a pocket of coins that you use to collect, you know, and he will not deviate. Right? If the guy said no, that’s not me. He goes, No, it’s you. Right? And I remember this one time this guy Nope, it’s not me. It’s not me. It’s not me. It’s not me. We get done two hours, right? People are like, you know, all over James and such. And I remember seeing the guy off to the right. And he waited for probably good half hour and release. He comes over and, and you know, James and he talked he said, listen, all that really did happen. I was just afraid to say something. So to your point. Yeah, you know, this is in the book as well. I knew my mother was gonna die at a young age. I’ve always known. I’ve known since I was 13 years old. I didn’t share it with anybody. You know, it’ll be the fact in the book. And this podcast is probably the first time I’ve said it to a few people wanted to speak but I remember my mother and I got into an argument. And I could see things so since I was like six years old, like I could see the future. I you know, those those sort of premonitions. Like I would just like know things about people. I would it was just the scariest and oddest thing growing up in a small town in Warren, Pennsylvania, but I just kind of kept it to myself. of my mother and I was 13, we just moved to this new house. And I got a huge argument with her nice mad and I ran out the house to go across the street to play with some friends. And I got halfway across the street. And I remember getting to the other side to the sidewalk, and I just collapsed. And I just burst into tears, you know, and I knew I could feel this like, because I heard this message saying, you know, you need to be kind to your mother because she’s not going to be around long. And I like I saw her death I knew was gonna be young. And I literally that moment change. We had a good relationship, but my respect for her. And my devotion really to her had really changed because I really believed that she was gonna leave at a young age. So then at 33, when I woke up at three o’clock in the morning, and I said, I heard the message, she got cancer, I was like, This is it. Now, though, I will say that when I went through the process with her being a primary caregiver, I was fully believing that she was going to be cancer, because I don’t think anything’s set in stone. I think how we interact our energy what we do, can we change our destiny? Yeah, absolutely. Nothing’s written in stone, kind of deal. But, you know, that’s what I use. That’s why I talked to you earlier, I said, you know, I do these intuitive readings for clients before we do my four month program. And so you know, something I want to offer your audience. So, you know, if you text, the word voices, or voice with doesn’t matter, whatever works, just texted to me at 760-835-3327. Again, just text voices to 760-835-3327. As long as I’m alive and well, and six feet above ground, I said, I will text you back. And this is a complimentary intuitive reading. It’s what I do for all prospective clients, but just for people, because I want you to have something and I’m about I’ve plotted this Excel spreadsheet, I just did three this past two days. I’m about 86%. Correct, right. And what we do is, you know, it just whatever comes up, and for me, I share with clients or four things that come up the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful, because that’s our life. Yeah. That’s our life.
Victoria Volk 57:19
There’s so many different ways I could go from here. Not sure what’s to go. Maybe your intuition will lead you lead this conversation where it should go, because you’ve you’ve given you’ve given a tip, like don’t you know, for Grievers is to not grieve alone. And that’s not too long give somebody one of the best pieces of advice you ever received, while you were grieving was,
Brent Scarpo 57:44
I would say the best piece of advice that I received when I was grieving. Because I got so many I would say, here’s what I’ll say. I remember when I was doing the grief group and this woman, this was at a hospital in Glendale is a couple miles down the stream, this one was incredible. I don’t even know she’s still with us. But I went and I went for my first group, right? And so I’m fresh off the death of my mother, right? So a lot of you who might be listening are fresh off the death of a loved one or a person that you’ve lost. So I sat there and I was nervous. You know, I mean, I was a former actor and such, but I was like, this is the real deal. This is not acting, this is the real stuff here. And so she said, Hey, welcome, everybody. You know, this is our Tuesday night, you know, seven to nine lalalalala? If you’re new, if you don’t mind, can you just raise your hands? I was like, my hands, she says so we’re just gonna, you know, just gently I mean, her words wonderful. I mean, I’m an English major in communications major was in jelly go around the room, if you just if you’re open, just say your name, and maybe, you know, a sense of why you’re here. Right? I was like, Okay, so there’s about five or six of us that were brand new. And so I was in the back. And I just remember listing 12345 And they got to me, and I was in this trance, because I just say, like, all the feelings and emotions about my mother were coming up. And she said, you know, could you share your name? And I didn’t hear like, I didn’t even see her. And she said, Sir, could you mine? Are you okay with sharing your name? And I was like, Oh, I’m so sorry. I said, Yeah. I said, my name is Brian Scarfo. She said, Are you open to sharing with us why you’re here. And I took this moment. And I just went through the entire two and a half years of caring for my mother. And I said to her, I said, you know, I’m here to do on a full time basis. What I’ve only done part time and that’s finally take care of me. And just tears streamed down my face. And I remember she came over and she put her hands directly on my shoulders and he said that’s why we’re all here. We are here to finally have the opportunity to take care of ours. selves, and what this journey is about and to give permission to feel to give permission to look at the loss that you just went through. And so I think my advice to you is just to give you permission to go on this journey, to give you permission to take care of yourself full time, to give you permission to be able to seek out those resources and say to the people that are pulling you in different ways, no, no, mommy’s viewing, mommy, Daddy’s gonna go to the scoop. This is something I have to do. And give yourself permission to take care of yourself, and do for yourself, what you did so wonderfully. For the person that you cared for?
Victoria Volk 1:00:47
Well, and in the process, especially if you’re a parent and have children, you’re setting an example of how important that is,
Brent Scarpo 1:00:53
Right? All modeling the behavior.
Victoria Volk 1:00:57
What has what has your grief taught you?
Brent Scarpo 1:01:00
Well, it’s funny, because I was vacillating between two words of wisdom, here’s what I’ll share with you. What it’s taught me is, because halfway through the process, this is the private number two bits of wisdom, she said, and it’s just so true. And somebody was having a particularly difficult time. And she said, look, she said, this is hard work. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna mess around, she said, but I am going to make your promise. She said, Because I know a lot of you’re feeling like you’re just this train going through this dark tunnel, you know, that has no light. And that just keeps going and going and going and going. And you come week after week, after week, after week, feeling pain, after pain, after pain, but she said, Here’s my promise to you. If you continue to do the work to get on the train, to go through the dark tunnel to feel the pain, I promise you, at some point in time, you will see the light. And then the light are the gifts. And those gifts are being sent by the person that you’re grieving over. And you’re going to open up those gifts, and it’s going to be pure joy. And it took about two years. But all of a sudden the train came out. And I saw the light. And I saw the gifts, and I opened them up. And I felt the joy.
Victoria Volk 1:02:23
I’m going to ask you a question. Just intuitively, I want to know the answer. But I think it would be helpful to others listening. If I would have known you then and even a year and a half a year into their group you’re going to and I’m not bashing group supports systems or group programs. And by any means I think you found support in it, it helped you. I’m not saying that. They’re They’re wonderful for people. But if I would have said to you do you want to work one on one with me and I can help you in eight, eight sessions. What you’ve worked through an eight year in two years, would you believe me?
Brent Scarpo 1:03:09
Well, I actually did it. So when hospice came, they said look, you we they give us all these kinds of resources. So there’s this group, and then there was one on one. And I here’s what I knew. Here’s what I did. So I was a casting director at the time I was casting Shawshank Redemption, Air Force One, the last movie I cast it for my mother passed away was Matilda. Right? I had 3000 children and worked with funniest guy named Danny DeVito. So during then, this is what I did. During the two and a half years that I was my mother’s primary caregiver, I opened up a separate bank account. And I put enough money away for every month that I was her caregiver and that she had cancer so that I could take that much time off.
Victoria Volk 1:03:54
I know another great tip,
Brent Scarpo 1:03:55
Another tip. Another tip, but I remember just saying you know what, because I thought if this should go wrong, I’m gonna have to be able to deal with some stuff. And I don’t know if I really want to go to work and pretend to cast children and materials commercial and be happy about it. So I had two and a half months of salary. And I took a year and I didn’t work at all. I took it when I say took care of myself full time I wasn’t playing, but I planned it. That’s why I’m telling people this is the biggest tip is you got to plan for this ahead of time. The red balloon was done years and years before she you know, I had the dream that she had cancer. I mean, all this can be planned and you can get the joy out of that. And so I did the group. We met once a while I did two I did twice, and then I was so impressed with her. I went to her once once a week right now. I went there once a week for about a year. Now if you say to me You know, in eight weeks if you meet with me, I guess it depends on what you’re saying to me and eight weeks you work with me your grief will be over I,
Victoria Volk 1:05:09
Yeah, I probably went over your grief won’t be okay. Okay. It’s just that every emotional thing that’s keeping you bogged down and keeping you stuck and keeping you from living your fullest potential because you’re, you’re emotionally incomplete in some way. That would be resolved.
Brent Scarpo 1:05:25
Yeah I would say. I mean, look, I have a four month life coaching program. And I specifically did four months, because, you know, I worked with a lot of people with addiction such and those these 90 Day and 3d programs, you know, scientifically, we’ve discovered that they don’t work, right, it takes at least 90 plus days to change a behavior. It just does. I mean, all the research is out there, whether it’s an emotional, psychological, physical, but whatever the case may be. So you’re looking at two months, I knowing back then maybe I would have said, Yeah, let’s go ahead and do this. But I would have gone on probably a while because I made that plan. But I’m of the proponent that, you know, if you’re going to do something one on one, just because of all the research I’ve read, you want to do it for at least excuse me four months. That’s why do my program is 21 sessions, right? 21 sessions, and I guarantee you’ll be transformed in some shape or form. I’ve got all the testimonials on my website, which is Brent scarfo.com. And because it just takes that much time to get you know, it’s like the onion, you know, you peel back the onion, there’s always layers and layers and layers and layers. So I hope that answers your question.
Victoria Volk 1:06:35
No, I personally was just curious what your answer would be. Because I find though, in because Grief Recovery, the Grief Recovery method is evidence based, right, Kent University did a study. And what I’m finding is that it can be really difficult for people to believe that it’s possible even that you can’t, you know, I mean, that you can’t even get to. So like someone who’s going through grief, like going to a support group, where there isn’t necessarily action, like you’re not taking action. And I some, and I think too, it depends on the facilitator. But if you because I’ve heard many people say to me about the group group group sometimes is that you almost feel worse when you leave, because it’s such a heavy
Brent Scarpo 1:07:26
Look. I agree with you. I think I’ll give you an example. In fact, I may, I may carry you with me, because I’m gonna go let the let the dog in, is, you’ve got to figure out what device works best for you. Right? It’s it is I’m working with a client whose mother committed suicide. Right? And so it’ll be a year two years ago, yesterday. And, you know, I said, you know, what are you doing to deal with your grief? Right? And so, she’s like, Well, I started this group, but I don’t know if I really want to go to therapy. I was like, Okay, gotcha, right. Well, I know him well enough, because I’ve worked with him three times. So if he does for him, if he does therapy, he knows he’s gonna have to get to it. He’s not ready. He’s not ready. Let me just sit in the back here, you know, that he’s also a man. Right? But he’s sensitive enough to where he’s open. Because, you know, men grieve differently. They like, you know, they’re, they lose their child. And two weeks later, they’re back at work. And the wife is like, what are you doing? Right? Because women grieve with expression and emotion and feeling and men keep it inside, they have to be busy and doing things so that they can process what is that they’re feeling? So I think you bring up a really good point, not only choose not to do it yourself, but choose the venue and the way that works best for you. Right, maybe it’s therapy one on one, and that’s it, maybe it’s great. It’s group because you like being around people and such. Maybe it’s a combination of the two. There’s probably modalities out there that I’m not even familiar with. I know. Well, no, I mean, I know. I know, people that have had Reiki they’ve had the, you know, the energy they’ve had, you know, I knew one woman who she really didn’t do therapy, per se, but once a week, she did something for herself. So I got a massage, I got a facial, I you know, I just did something to make me feel better, you know, because the other six days she was grieving, you know, so that was that self care that she was able to do for herself, rather than find herself plummeted in the depths of, you know, grief so low that she couldn’t get out of it. So yeah, I think, well, here’s a great example. So my client goes to group, right. And I said, How’s that gone? He said, Because I don’t I don’t know. You know, and he’s, you know, this is this is something brand new to him because he’s an only child. I said, What are you? Are you getting something out of? He said, Yeah, I said, But it’s just I just feel like I’m unique. So what’d he mean? He said, Well, other people, you know, they’ve lost a child or you know, the grandmother died or their grandfather died or the husband died or whatever. It’s like, my mom died. She killed herself. Right? I said, that’s all you gotta say. So then I Googled, and I found a group that is specific. Everybody, their, their, their lost, loved one had committed suicide. So he went to that. And he said, That’s a world of difference. Just a world of difference. He said, thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:10:33
Yeah, and I think there can be dangers in that too, though, because we can, we can definitely learn from all people, people that have experienced all types of losses. And I think that’s kind of what we do, too. It’s even if, you know, depending on what your loss is, you might say, Well, why am I feeling so bad? They lost their child or, you know, and so we naturally can do things like that to that. That’s where, again, I think it depends on the group and the facilitator.
Brent Scarpo 1:11:01
Absolutely Exactly. Right. I think I was lucky. I mean, when this one was, I mean, she was, I wouldn’t say world renowned, but she was state right now. Like she was it, you know, and so, to your point, I think you’re right is like, I mean, he went to the one group and didn’t like it. So I was like, Well, don’t stay here. But I’m trying to, I don’t know, if you if this is not working for you, we just there is a path, we just have to figure out which one it is for you. Because not all things work for all people. We just had to figure out what it was. And then through my work with him, we were able to find it. And you know, he did that for the first year. And then he was fine. He’s like, you know, I’ve done it. I’m doing this. And, you know, I’m working now with him for because I kind of worked with him at the tail end of that. And I’m working with him for another year. So I’m doing something much different, you know, because now we’re in year two, we’re this is second year yesterday. So one of the things I said to him, was gonna do with all my clients, no matter if they’re going through grief or not. And I said, Okay, he said, I want you to attend this class. And so I said of the class, he said, really? I said, Yeah, I said, just just go to it and see what happens. Well, I think the greatest class any human being can take for all things is an improv class. I’ve taken dozens and dozens and dozens. You wanted to learn how to do sales, take an improv class, you want to learn how to ask out a woman or a man on a date, take an improv class, if you want to get a better your communication skills, take an improv class. So he said, I don’t know. And I said, No, it just, it’s free. Just go check in on it. So he went, and they Brian, do they bring you up on stage? And I said, just text me when you’re done? Well, it was done. I didn’t get a text. So I text him to get nothing back. Then finally, like, two hours later, he texts me said I stayed for the two classes afterwards. I said, Oh, I said, Okay. And then we talked the next day. And I said, What do you think he said, You know what, thank you for sending that to me. He said, My biggest challenge is I don’t think I’m allowed to laugh without my mom. He said, and all of a sudden, I found myself laughing. You know, and I almost felt guilty about it. But then I was like, maybe this is okay. Well, that was my mindset from the very beginning that my wife sent him, you know, but I think couldn’t tell him that. So now he signed up for the class and the course and, you know, making those transitions as far as you know, the various, you know, for lack of better word stages that he’s in when it comes to grief insights, because, you know, how do we learn to laugh without the person we used to laugh with? Well, it takes practice. You gotta have the right you know, so that’s not a grief group. That’s not therapy. Right. That’s an improv class. And I’m all about it.
Victoria Volk 1:13:36
That’s another great tip.
Brent Scarpo 1:13:38
Oh yeah absolutely. Everybody’s taking an improv class. Everybody, everybody, I took him when I was an acting school. And then about three years ago, I decided to take him again, for some odd reason. I went to like some really, we got some famous ones in Hollywood. But it was funny because I went, I said, you know, I’ve been to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. I graduate for two years. He said, I probably will start like level five or level six. He’s like, Yeah, you’re starting all over? I am. He said, Yeah. It doesn’t matter where your past experiences. Are. We starting at the beginning, I was like, Okay, sir. So it was fine. I totally got it, you know, because the idea is to build this cohesion of a group of people that have the ability to speak and listen, listening being the most important part.
Victoria Volk 1:14:18
Exactly. And I just want to circle back to what we’ve been talking about with groups and programs and things like that. And I think that’s the most important thing to take away from this conversation is that to meet yourself, where you’re at, and what you’re ready for, and I think when you’re ready to hear it, you’ll be open to it, whatever it is,
Brent Scarpo 1:14:37
Yeah, there’s a lot of weight to what you just share. But there’s also then those people who, you know, maybe they’re by themselves or they’re isolated and such and so they just for some reason, the people places and things are in their lives to kind of nudge them along to the possibility that that’s the group that I worry about, you know, that may not have that support group or don’t have the ability to reach out or can’t ask for help those The ones I’m really concerned about the most. I mean, that’s the beauty of, you know, grief groups and grief therapy back in 1997 when my mother died, and now, you know, you can do this on Zoom, you know, with COVID. I mean, you know, when COVID happened, he was saying, is that no, we, we couldn’t get together, we had to do it on Zoom. And that was sort of his transition of not doing it anymore, because it just wasn’t the same. Right? It just was not the same. And a lot of people that, you know, especially people who suffer from addiction and are going through that COVID was, it’s been very difficult, because you and I are talking, we’re having a great time and such, but I still can’t hug you, you know, and having that one on one. So yeah, I, if you can, if you can get to the place of knowing that you need some help. And then you can get to the place of research in which we’re able to do in the confines of our home, which is great. We got this thing called computer, but then take the action step that I’m talking about, you know, to do the zoom or make the call or have whatever it is, that’s the most important piece, because that piece is what then tells you where am I in the process? What you know, versus I’m not going to do anything at all.
Victoria Volk 1:16:08
Yeah, and I think you’ll discover what you’re ready for in the process of taking action, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So what gives you the most hope, and joy for the future?
Brent Scarpo 1:16:20
What gives you the most hope and joy for the future? So it’s more of the word hope than anything else. So for example, this last year really, I’ve merged my life experiences in the entertainment industry with my life experience as a life coach. So you know, one of the greatest films out there is, you know, the Shawshank Redemption, I was one of the assistant casting directors when the best four months of my entire life. I’ve seen the movie over 1000 times. And so, you know, I realized there’s just so many great lessons from that film. And it’s the reason why it’s one of the top 10 films out there. And so, you know, I went through the whole film, and I came up with the 10 top lessons that one can learn from the Shawshank Redemption when it comes to life. So, you know, let’s go through a few of those. And because to answer your question, I remember when we had the 10th anniversary, and Frank had sent us a brand new poster. So I put it up next to the old poster that I’ve had for years, but I never really looked at it. And so I will tell you why. Shawshank Redemption is one of the top films that everybody to this day still loves is because of the caption of the poster. And this answers your question, the caption of the poster in the film was this fear will keep you prisoner hope will set you free. Fear will keep you prisoner hope will set you free. And so for me, it’s not what is it that I think is going to happen when it comes to what is it that I hoped for. But for me, it is the essence of hope. I think that’s why we’re having the difficulties that we’ve been having for the last 567 years. Right? If we’ve we’ve lost the ability to believe that there’s this thing called hope. And so when you lose that ability to believe in this thing called Hope, and what happens is fear takes over. Fear will keep you prisoner hope will set you free. I spoke at this one university one time and I didn’t know what the question was. But I remember responding saying, Well, the truth will set you free. Right. And I had this aha moment. And whatever the question was, you know, that was one of the answers is the truth will set you free. I said, But and let’s bring it back to the grieving process. Do you know who her cousin is? Right? I’m just saying this. This is like the Intuit I like I don’t know what’s about to come out of my mouth. And they all kind of looked at me. I said, the truth will set you free. But her cousin is the truth hurts. And typically the truth has to hurt in order for it to set you free. The grieving process, we’ve got to go through the dark tunnel on the prayer and the pain in order to receive the light and the gifts. Right. And so for me, it’s the the entity in the essence of hope to know that hope is always a possibility to know the hope is something that you can wrap your arms around to know the hope is always an option. And that you don’t have to live in fear. And you don’t have to bestow fear on other people. And you don’t have to generate fear, which I think we’ve been doing so much in the last five to seven years. Right that people have made their mantra about fear than their mantra about hope. So it’s not what I hope for. It’s that there is hope.
Victoria Volk 1:19:42
That’s a big part of this podcast is to show people that no matter what you know who you are in life, what you’re, you know, people of all walks of life have been on this podcast and the one thing that they every guest has understood didn’t want to at some point in their life was that hope? Like hope tomorrow could there is hope that tomorrow could be better, will be better, can be better.
Brent Scarpo 1:20:10
They all the above, right? It’s absolutely it’s it’s and we’ve lost that. And a lot of ways I think COVID exacerbated the situation. You know, especially when we want to be in sole control of our lives, right. And then something comes into our lives that you completely lose control. Right? That’s when you that’s when that concept of faith has been tested when your faith in hope is being tested. And if you lose that faith and hope, well, then you automatically go to fear again. Fear can hold you prisoner hope can set you free, one of the other. It’s a great scene in the movie. Right? And again, to your point I can because I remember sitting there watching the scene happen when Andy de France character, you know, is having a difficult time being in prison for all those years for something he did not do. Right. I didn’t sign up to lose my mother. This was not a group I volunteered for. It happened. Right? It happened. I’m part of a group that I did not volunteer for. I didn’t want to be a member. And I did not pay dues. But here I am. Right. And so his friend read, you know, starts to worry about him. And I remember just seeing, you know, the character attorney. So well, I guess it comes down to two things you could get busy living or get busy dying? Well, exactly. Right. I mean, when COVID happened, you know, two years ago, and I have a lot of clients, I look I freaked out on human just as much as everybody else. And then my clients were coming to me, my one client, she lost all three of her jobs in 72 hours that are all related to the restaurant business, three jobs in 72 hours gone. And I said, Well, you got two choices, right? And I said, you can either do the time, or the time can do you pick one. I did 168 projects on my place. And that two years, right, because my whole life like everybody else was just, you know, decimated on some levels. So you either get busy living or get busy dying, you know, you either get busy dying and live in the fear or you get busy and living and relish in the hope.
Victoria Volk 1:22:25
Yeah, and I think you turn on the news. That’s probably one of people’s biggest mistakes is turning on the news. First three minutes is nothing positive.
Brent Scarpo 1:22:35
And then another six hours of nothing positive. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:22:38
Right. One thing to chip away at your hope, just keep the news on,
Brent Scarpo 1:22:42
Right. It’s difficult. I know, I hadn’t watched the news for years. I’m not, I really haven’t. And then there was a certain time four or five years ago that I just I almost felt like I had to because there was so much change happening in such a high rate that I want to kind of be abreast of kind of what was going on. But I you know, I saw how it changed me but I also had to really modify how much I look at it now I’m back to not watching it. Because we can get it from so many other places and such but yeah, it’s um, you know, I always tell my clients, you create your own reality. Right? You create your own reality however, that reality exists for you and whatever choices and action steps you take is his what that reality is about. You know, one of the concepts of the the 10 Shawshank lessons is the opportunities can be seen everywhere. You just have to look and you have to listen, right? I mean, if you look at that movie, now, here’s a prisoner and he wants to build a library and the prison in 1947. The words like you can’t do that. It’s the wall write a letter to the state for the funding if you don’t have it. Right, he writes a letter for how many years? And then finally, they sent him a check saying please stop writing. Right? That goes back to for me, number three, you’ve got to be relentless, and you got to be tenacious in your life. Right took him 20 years to escape Shawshank Redemption with a tiny rock hammer. Right? He wrote one letter a week for years to get the books in the library. So we need to stay on course, find that support system, especially when we go through the grieving process because you’re going to have those peaks and valleys. This is why the two words exist in the English language. So when you find yourself down the valley, you have that support system that can help you and take you by the hand and get you back up on the on the hill or the mountain. I’ve only told this once in my life, this is interesting, but I’m looking at number nine, and that’s practice random acts of kindness. So for me, you know, my mother was having cancer and I just had to do something like I’d love random acts of kindness and but I was insanely busy. I mean, I was 24/7 with her. I was casting films. You know, we had ups and downs depending on what was going on in the process of her cancer. are. And for some reason, I’ve only said this twice, I decided that once a week, I would send money anonymously to a person that I found in the phonebook. Because my mailbox was down the street. And I picked up my mail there. And this is when you had, you know, you actually had phones that you put quarters in the US, you know, and I just, I remember, oh, no, it was inside, it was inside the post office site to look up an address. And I just had all these names of all these people. And I so I created this letter saying, You don’t know who I am synopsize And you don’t know who I am. You know, but, you know, I’m currently you know, assisting my mother with cancer. You know, we’re very hopeful. Again, I know that was in there. You know, I know this is not much, but I hope this brings a little sense of hope to your life. And I put it in $5 each time. And I did that once a week for the entire time she had cancer. And that was that was just a tool that I use for me. It helped me be hopeful. I was practicing a random act of kindness. It was something that I could do that was outside of being her primary caregiver. But you know, that’s just what I did.
Victoria Volk 1:26:06
Yeah, another tip. Yeah. Exactly. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Brent Scarpo 1:26:14
You know, I would just say, you know, thank you for all that you do. Again, if you want an intuitive reading, it’s completely complimentary. I guarantee you that you have tools that you can take away from it about 45 minutes to an hour, just text me at 760-835-3327 voices. My website is Brent scarfo.com Bre N T, SCA rpo.com. You know, the book, the red balloons coming out Mother’s Day, I’m so excited about this. I’ve been working on this for 10 years, it is going to be a life coaching book. It’s about the relationship between my mother and I, it talks about how we prove that there in fact, was life after death. And if you’re interested in seeing the Today Show episode, you just have to go to YouTube and put in print Scarfo, the Today Show?
Victoria Volk 1:27:00
Well, I’ll put all of that in the show notes as well.
Brent Scarpo 1:27:04
Well, thank you so much for everything. This was wonderful. I really appreciate you and all that you do. And I know it’s really hard work doing this because I’ve been asked to do it. And I was like no, I feel like I just I know how much is involved. Maybe one day down the road because I think it would be something fun to do. But I You know, I’ve been on several and you’re you’re great at what you do. And I just want to thank you for what it is that you do for, for me and for us and for all those that are going through the grieving process.
Victoria Volk 1:27:30
Thank you and thank you for sharing absolutely all that you’ve shared. And remember, when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Podcast |
Hannah Howard | Food: My Perfect Obsession
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Anorexia nervosa: an eating disorder characterized by attempts to lose weight to the point of starvation.
Hannah believed she was destined to suffer in silence. Her obsession with food, body image, and a strive for perfection began in middle school. She was always the tallest in her class and developed early on as well. Hannah would go through periods of starving herself followed by an episode of bingeing. This went on through college and into her 20s when she finally “got sick and tired of being sick and tired.” One email to an author led to learning about a support group for those who are struggling with an eating disorder. This group opened her up to support, and a sense of community that aided her in dismantling the shame that had consumed her for so many years.
Years later, and married, it was a miscarriage that taught @hannahmhoward how to have compassion for herself in a way she hadn’t fully practiced.
One book, email, a phone call — action, can change your entire life. Now 10 years into recovery, Hannah learned and wants to share that you’re not alone, and going through challenges alone doesn’t help with shame, if anything, it perpetuates it.
We all have a relationship with food, whether we have an eating disorder or not. And, like grief, there are so many ways we are misinformed and there are false beliefs we have been raised with that shape the rest of our lives.
CONNECT:
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SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Hannah Howard. She is a writer and food expert who spent her formative years in New York eating, drinking, serving bartending, cooking on a line flipping giant wheels of cheese and managing restaurants. She writes about delicious things teach us food writing classes. And her memoir, feast true love in and out of the kitchen debuted as ma’am Amazon’s number one best selling memoir in 2018. And her new book plenty, a memoir of food and family is out now. Thank you so much for being here.
Hannah Howard 1:35
Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to chat with you today.
Victoria Volk 1:39
And I was like kind of mentioned before we started recording that this is a very timely conversation for me. It just, I don’t know, food just keeps coming up in my world lately. Yeah, because really, we food. We have a relationship with food. It’s a relationship. And I mean, for me personally, I never was taught or shown or it wasn’t emulated for me that that is a real thing like to enjoy food or savor it or, you know, the preparation of it or, you know, anyway, we’ll get to that. But I’m interested in learning how your relationship to food started for you in childhood. And over the years.
Hannah Howard 2:26
Absolutely. I’ve always loved food. But it’s always been a little bit more complicated that complicated than that. The Love came, I feel very lucky that I grew up with a mom who’s a great cook and a food lover. And one of my best childhood memories. I grew up in Baltimore, and we used to go on these kind of to me, they were like great adventures to get groceries for the week. And we would go to this amazing local farmers market, we would go to the Mrs. mesterolone visit Mrs. Knox alone at this little Italian grocery store, where this propriety tests would be needing curds to make fresh mozzarella. And if I was lucky to get a taste, and we’d go to the nearest bakery and have this amazing hold on olives. And just I felt really lucky and like this was so fun. And then being part of that transformation, or my mom would cook us into ingredients into delicious things. But then from a very young age, I was also the tallest girl in my class, I was the first to get dressed. And I also just had a anxiety and a dissatisfaction with my body that felt really intense and kind of increasingly so as I grew up. And so on the one hand, I’ve had this really genuine joy and respect and love around food. And on the other hand, I’ve had a sort of fear and obsession around food. I messed around with all kinds of diets and this and that and trying to change my body. And this kind of morphed into an eating disorder that I’ve now thankfully been in recovery for for many years. But I think for me part of the journey and your right food is such a relationship that we all have has been untangling that first like that first really positive part from the really dark, hard part of my food relationship and really leaning into the former and kind of turning down the volume on all that fear, obsession, worry that used to take up such a huge part of my life.
Victoria Volk 4:39
How old were you when that started to develop?
Hannah Howard 4:42
I was really young, I think around middle school or even before I mean, I remember having these kinds of just feeling like my body was wrong and there was something wrong with me. And then around college it really kind of spiraled I, I had a I had a diagnosis in college of anorexia nervosa, which even at the time I was like, this is part of the story, but it’s not the whole story, because I was just kind of always in this limbo between trying to restrict my food and binging and my weight would go up and down. And it was really a painful way to live, I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. And then the anorexia kind of outwardly got better because I was at a normal weight. But I was not at any kind of peace with myself or with my food for several more years, until I kind of was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I had this last epic binge, and was really like using food as a weapon to hurt myself in a way to come back. Now I’m kind of grateful because it bothered me to reach out for help. And the reaching out for help was the beginning of really recovering, changing and repairing and healing my relationship with food. And myself
Victoria Volk 6:00
May I ask what was happening in your life, outwardly around you and your environment and things when this control things started to take shape?
Hannah Howard 6:11
So many things were so good, which was always kind of this felt like this mystery to me, like, you know, I had I grew up in Baltimore. And then when we were in high school, we moved to the New Jersey suburbs, which I was very unhappy about very mad at my parents. And I have always been kind of a city girl, and I loved New York City and wanted to go to college there. And I got into my, my dream school, I went to Columbia. And that was what I really wanted to do. And I was so excited. And to so many things were going on, I had some amazing friends, I had some amazing opportunities. And also meanwhile, so feast, my first book tells the story of working through restaurants, because that first part of this food relationship I described, I think was a huge piece in propelling me to get a get jobs around food. And so I worked in some amazing New York City, restaurants, cheese, cheese places, and really fell in love with that world. So there were so many things that were amazing in my life, I had a I have an incredible supportive family. But I had this like, deep secret. Because I was so ashamed of this eating disorder and my struggle with food, I didn’t feel safe telling anyone, I could barely admit it to myself, much less any friends or family. So it’s like a really lonely experience carrying this around. And I think looking back to there was this sort of big disconnect between things on the outside, which were good and things on the inside, which were miserable.
Victoria Volk 7:57
So where do you think that self hatred was coming from? Because I’m kind of digging further into this for people listening for parents, for mothers, I’m a mother, I have two teenage girls 12 Like she’s going to be 13 and a 15 year old pretty soon. So I’m really just interested in, you know, because when I look at their environment, like, we have great family life and things, you know, so I want some insight as a parent. And can you share a little bit about that?
Hannah Howard 8:31
Absolutely. I mean, I’m, I’m a parent, too. I’m a new new mom, I have an 18 month old daughter and congratulate expressed to them and thank you something. Yeah, yeah. And it’s something I think a lot about, because I think in some part, eating disorders are like, like, I think most addictions are kind of family disease. And I really, I don’t know how much of this is nature. And how much of this is nurture. I really don’t think that my family did anything wrong, but I do with a lot of compassion. And I’ve written about this, I did watch my mom’s struggle with her with her weight and her own kind of journey to accept herself and she was always on and off different diets and losing and gaining weight. And so I definitely don’t blame her. I think that we’re all a product of this diet culture that I’ve been learning more about. And the more I learned about it, the more I see that it’s, it’s really in the air we breathe, like we’re really taught these lessons kind of implicitly that like fitness is goodness. And I think slowly, slowly, slowly, that is starting to change. Even like when I was growing up. I never saw images of bodies that didn’t look like one very specific way. And I think now there are more images of bodies look other ways, but I think there’s still a long way to Go. So I it’s really tough I don’t, and I and I hope like, I really don’t want to pass this on to my kids. But I also don’t know how much control that any one of us has decides, I know that the best thing I can do for myself is to continue to recover myself and, you know, build this my own positive relationship with, with all this stuff. And then the rest. I wish I had a better answer.
Victoria Volk 10:32
No, I think you’d think you kind of did. And I think really just like how we are taught. I have a post coming up about this, because I read I came across something on the web the other day, and it kind of just the person stated that children don’t know how to grieve. And that really rubbed me the wrong way. Because we come out of the womb, knowing how to grieve, we come out of the womb crying. And for the next two to, you know, for the next first three years of our life, we’re expressing ourselves openly and without a without any thought of who am I going to offend? If I cry or who you know what I mean, we don’t have it, we naturally express ourselves up until the point, because by age three, we’ve learned almost 75% of the skills that we need to deal with difficult challenges in our life. Can you believe that by age three. So those early years are the most formative for setting the foundation for relationship to food, or how we grieve, right? So I mean, there’s a lot that I wish I could undo in that regard, because I wasn’t healing myself either. Like in my grief, it took me many years. And so I look back of how different of a mom, I meant I am today, I’m sure you look at your experience, and oh, my gosh, almost thankful for that experience, because it makes you a better parent. Right. having had that experience. It’s emulating what a healthy relationship to food looks like, what grieving looks like, in a healthy way. And so no, I think that’s a great answer. I mean, that’s basically what you had said, and the best thing we can do as parents is to heal ourselves to work on ourselves. Yeah,
Hannah Howard 12:31
Yeah, absolutely. Which is a lot harder than, Oh, yeah, this thing or you know, just yeah, just do this thing. It’s a lot of like, deeper work. But I think it’s absolutely true.
Victoria Volk 12:43
I just done 60 minutes last night, I was watching I don’t know if you saw the whole Facebook whistleblower story, but if you watch the news piece, she actually added and went on to say that Facebook’s own research into Instagram verifies and shows that Instagram is actually harmful for teenage girls, it is doing more harm than good. And they had actually talked about creating a platform for Instagram for teens or for younger for the younger people. But they’ve put that on the backburner. And it just makes me think that jeez, I wonder I never really gave it much thought because my my oldest daughter is on Instagram. And yeah, it’s really making me rethink that, you know, what’s come up for me too. And preparing for this episode is me reflecting on my own relationship to food and how I tend to not eat when I get like in the zone or I’m in I can. Oh, it’s three o’clock. I haven’t eaten anything. My daughter has actually. She will feed me. She will bring me food to make sure that I eat. But so yes, I’m this is I mean, I told you before we started recording that this is really a timely conversation for me too. So I again, thank you for sharing your story. What I would like to hear is more about that turning point for you. And then that what that has looked like since
Hannah Howard 14:27
The turning point of kind of from from the struggle to the other.
Victoria Volk 14:32
Like you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like I’ve said that about that’s what happened last night I said to myself when I was like just like had one word loss experience. I’m like, I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah.
Hannah Howard 14:44
Yeah. So I think I really thought for many years that I was this was just something that I was going to have to deal with and struggle with and slog through forever, like it was just my burden and light If to bear this, and I am kind of so glad that I reached that point, I guess like people talk, like alcoholics and stuff talk about like a bottom or, I mean, it really felt like that, to me, it was just like, it was just so exhausting to keep by at this point, I was kind of, I would get this like new resolution to diet harder and to really restrict, and I would for, I don’t know, sometimes it was days, sometimes it was weeks, sometimes it was months. But then it would always and I think also biologically, like, we’re not supposed to starve ourselves, our bodies are really smart, and they want to be nourished. And then so I would, and then inevitably, it would result the pendulum would swing the other way. And it would result in some sort of binge, and then I’d feel ashamed and embarrassed and vow to diet better and harder next time. And that went on, like for many years, and it’s just not a really fun way to live at all. I think kind of breaking these promises to ourselves is really hard. The shame was really hard. Like I said, before the loneliness, I think that was really what got me, because I was just hiding this from or trying to hide it. I think people really close to me probably, were smart enough to see something was going on. But so I, let’s see. So I went at the time I because I was looking for like answer. You know, while part of me felt like, this was my life, another part of me had some hope. And I was looking at, you know, so I would read, I was kind of embarrassed. So go to the Self Help section of Barnes and Noble, and kind of like, choose a book that felt more like intellectual or something. But then I have a different book. And I was reading something. And when the author was a coach, and I just on a whim, decided to email her. And I think I couldn’t, you know, I was in my early 20s, I couldn’t afford her services. But she I think she offered to talk with me for like, a few minutes on the phone very generously. And she suggested this group that met for eating disorder recovery, and I didn’t even expect like it, it sort of came out to her. I didn’t even expect that I was going to talk about this. And I kind of felt like I had nothing to lose. And I went and it was just it was kind of like a lightbulb experience to hear people share out loud. The things that kind of went on in my like in the deepest, darkest crevices of my mind, but had never spoken out loud. And then not only did they say these things like things that they did with food, their own their own feelings, their own complicated stories. And then they would just like laugh and give each other hugs. And my mind was blown. I was like, What is this, it felt weird, it felt definitely uncomfortable. I was nervous. But I was like, this is incredible. I think I’m so grateful for a part of me that felt like anything, so much of that was just being around people who understood what I was going through. And I kept going back, and I met people who understood. And I think that was this huge shift of not doing this not trying to do this alone, not in the secret corner of Barnes and Noble with my secret book, but having people to share with honestly and openly and people who had been where I had been. But now we’re doing we’re experiencing life and food and their bodies in a totally different way. And it gave me this kind of hope that something else really was possible. And there was a different way for me to live.
Victoria Volk 18:59
So in conjunction with the group that you met with you, did you do therapy as well? Or what kind of along with that helped you the most?
Hannah Howard 19:09
Yes, I did. And I’m still go to therapy today, which I find incredibly helpful. But you know, I had gone to therapy before I had gone a few times in high school in college. And I feel like it could only for me anyway, it was nothing. I think I probably saw wonderful therapists but they could only work with what I was willing to share and where I was willing to show how I was willing to show up. And I wasn’t I just feel like I wasn’t quite ready. And something about this group I think made me feel like I was and so that work that I was doing in therapy felt so much more like it was getting to the heart of things and I was so much more willing to be honest, even when it was hard and so yeah, therapy has really helped the group has really helped. Sometimes just like time has helped. And even little like, there’s just so many little actions that have added up what we just talked about Instagram. Like being really mindful about who I follow on Instagram helps how I spend my time. Just these little little choices I make throughout the day that either can support my recovery or not so much.
Victoria Volk 20:27
And what does that look like today? What does recovery look like? And how, how many years has it been?
Hannah Howard 20:34
It’s been almost 10 years now, which is amazing. Yeah, so it looks really different. You know, when I was in the beginning, early stages, I would go to these groups like all the time, and I was, I mean, I’m 30, I just turned 34. So it was a different time in my life. And I had more time to kind of really dig in, I would make phone calls to fellow people in recovery, I read everything I could, I was really like, kind of seeking it out as if my life depended on it, which it did. But then over the years, like, my life has grown in these amazing waves. And I’m, a few years ago, I got married, and I have kids. And I also published books and do other and have busy work. And so life has has gotten bigger. And so I feel like I’ve had but I’ve really, it’s really been important for me to keep recovery as a sort of foundation in my life. Because I know that without it, all those other things don’t go too well at all. So, but it, but I don’t go to like all these meetings all the time, I don’t know. But I still see my therapist, I still have a community of people that I’ve met in these groups that I text or call on occasion and they’re they’ve become friends who I really value. And you know, when things. I think it’s like another living inside of my own brain and heart. And it’s like a completely different experience than it was 10 years ago. But I still I think I always will I still have moments where like, I look at a picture of myself and I freak out or I eat something and then my get so my brain so noisy about like, what was that what’s gonna happen. And they, when that happens, I kind of have a plan of how to deal with it, I have, again, like people to it, sometimes worse, in my head, it’s always better when I can just like share it with someone kind of dissipates. And I kind of think about how I can I could either go down that road of obsession and kind of stay in that misery. Or I can turn my thoughts elsewhere. And what else can I do? How can I be present in my life? And I tried to choose that second option as much as I can.
Victoria Volk 22:55
Do you believe you’d be where you are now had you? Well, a not had that experience. And be would still feel that torment within you? And I know the answer. But I want to hear you.
Hannah Howard 23:11
know, I mean, I think this, this has shaped who I am in so many ways. And so many of those ways I believe are for the better. I think dealing with this has given me so much compassion for what, you know, not everyone has an eating disorder. But everyone has that, you know, everyone struggles, everyone has something, whatever it is, you know, it doesn’t have to be a substance it can be with relationships, it can be with work, it can be with money, it can be you know, we all like we all have our stuff. And I so I think it’s really given me not only that compassion for others, but also so much more kindness and compassion for myself. Because my first like go to is to be incredibly hard on myself and such a perfectionist and incredibly mean to myself. And a big thing too, that I’m learning and recovery is to like, slowly ease up on that and and it’s also given me a way to connect with other people. I used to really think that I was supposed to present this sort of shiny, perfect exterior, and that’s how I would like win acceptance in the world. But it’s like, that’s not what appeals to me about other people. And you know, people don’t share stories about how they were awesome. They share embarrassing stories because like, you know, there’s something about humanity that we relate to the hard stuff. And so it’s just given me such a better understanding, I think and I think it’s made me a better I think a better mom, a better friend, a better writer. All of that.
Victoria Volk 24:48
Yeah. And when you said, you know, everyone has their stuff, but everyone, every single person has a relationship to food. All of us do.
Hannah Howard 24:57
That’s true human you know. Not again, not everyone has an eating disorder. But that doesn’t mean everyone has like a perfect rosy relationship with food it can be hard for, for all of us at times.
Victoria Volk 25:10
Well, and here’s my question. This is actually one of the things I wrote down. So, you know, when we think of eating disorder, we think of anorexia or bulimia, but what about addictions? Like an addiction to sugar? And is that addiction to sugar perpetuated by the food industry? And so, don’t you? You know, so what do you have to say about that? What are your thoughts?
Hannah Howard 25:31
Yeah I think yeah, right. I think, you know, that was I think that was part of my uneasiness with having an eating disorder was that I had this idea of this like, little blonde anorexic girl from like, an after school special. But eating disorders don’t always look like that at all right, they anorexia and bulimia exist as binge eating disorder, as does. There’s a in the official diagnostic manual, there’s, it’s called eg N. O. ‘s eating disorder not otherwise specified, which was my diagnosis for a long time, which is like the most frustrating diagnosis because what does that mean? But um, it’s so true. There’s so many ways to have like, disorder, like a lack of order in our lives around food. And, you know, people have all this also gets kind of thought of as like a privilege to young woman’s disease. But that’s not the case. Like men struggle with this. People of all backgrounds, and experiences. I was also kind of like, I read stuff about how like, oh, French people have this amazing relationship with food. And then I also met like, French people in my recovery group. It’s like, No, this anyone can, anyone can struggle with this. And it can look all different ways. And definitely, like, sort of the binge, right, there’s a restricting side. And then there’s a binging overeating side, too. And I think, I do think of my eating disorder as an addiction, not necessarily to like a substance, there’s a lot of controversy within the recovery community. Whether or not like sugar is addictive. I’m not a doctor, like, I don’t know. But for me, what is the addiction was kind of the obsession, like making food, this huge power over my life and my day, and you know, waking up in the morning and thinking about what I ate the day before, and not determining whether it was a good day or not, like that sort of thing. It really did feel like an addictive behavior. And then just the things I would do with food, the sneaking it, the lying about it, that just this obsession, so I think that there are a lot of parallels with addiction, whether or not I don’t know whether food is addictive, but it certainly can be I mean, we’ve all had that experience, right of like, starting to eat something and then being like, oh, my gosh, it’s gone. What happened? So yeah, it’s, it’s complicated
Victoria Volk 28:00
It’s very multi layered. And thank you for bringing up that it’s not just this blonde small girl problem in that because my son, actually 16 and he was the smallest kid in his class, scrawny thin, bone, I mean, bony structure, but I was the littlest always. And people would say, all the time we did to her literally is Oh, you’re so little, you’re so scrawny, or, you know, that’s not healthy, either. Like, I’m owning that as his parent that I probably was no help to that situation, either. And, you know, he had this growth spurt. You know, he started lifting weights, he started like doing push ups and things like that when he was like 12 or 13. And started, you know, he wanted protein powders, and he started to lift weights, and now he’s, you know, he put on I think, 40 pounds and on like, a little over a year or about a year, and he comes back to school, and we were like, Whoa, you know, like he’s transformed his body because of the hard work that he put into it. But you know, and I saw the difference it made in his confidence. And, and now again, he he’s talking about, he really loves lifting weights and stuff. And so he’s really talking about the next year he wants to put on even more weight and, and but it just this again, this conversation is so timely because I think it’s really important that it’s it’s not about exactly what it’s not because I said you know, it’s not it matters what you eat to put on the weight. You know, you don’t want to just eat a bunch of junk. You know, it really is something that I should probably pick up your book.
Hannah Howard 29:45
Yeah, yeah. Because we all have to like live in a body right? So, of course, and there’s nothing wrong with like taking care of your body and right like, you know, that’s awesome that your son like wanted to do these things. and accomplish them. But when it becomes what our bodies become, like our sense of worth self worth, then it’s now no longer. Right? It’s not right sized, sort of I, it’s, it’s hard, it’s hard, it’s hard to find that balance. And
Victoria Volk 30:16
That’s what I’m feeling. That’s what I’m feeling as a parent as his parents, like, you know, do I encourage this, you know, it’s like, you know, you’re perfect the way you are, like, that’s, that’s how you were made? And, you know, I don’t know, like, I have those feelings about myself, you know, we all have this is an everybody problem. Yeah, you know, I don’t care who you are. Because again, comes back to we all have a relationship to food. So when you were really struggling, what was something that was really helpful to you that and how other people supported you.
Hannah Howard 30:57
I think, for me, I hope I’m not a broken record with this. But it was such a relief to realize that I wasn’t alone with this because I did feel so kind of weird and like I there was something wrong with me, I must be broken. And just to meet these, like amazing men, and we’re mostly mostly women, but some men who are who are who I really like admired and who are really impressive people, but they also struggled with this and had so much kindness and a willingness to listen and share and connect that was just that was just hugely transformative for me, just that realization that it’s not some sort of moral issue that I have struggled with. This doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. And it’s and and one of the reasons to wanted to write and share my story is just like this deep breath of relief of not being alone, I still feel I may still feel that way, like 10 years into this journey, like, oh,
Victoria Volk 32:03
Well, I think in grief, too. And that’s why my, I’ve said this on a few podcasts when it’s come up. But the graphic the art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone, right? Because you feel so alone, and you feel like, like you’re screaming in the inside and in the like, and when you say something, and no one’s listening, or they don’t know what to say, or how to support you.
Hannah Howard 32:28
Yeah so just that, like I’m here. I’m sending you love, like those little things. They make such a difference, or they have to me for sure.
Victoria Volk 32:37
Do you think a part of that obsession was to feel a sense of control in your life? I think maybe as teenagers especially like, you feel like you have no control in your life. And so I think it’s common. I mean, is that like,
Hannah Howard 32:52
Oh, absolutely, definitely. I think it right. Yeah, I mean, even today, like life is my experience with the with this pandemic, where there’s so many unknowns in the world, and being a new mom or personal life sometimes feels really hard. And right through this, this like substance that, at least we think anyway, we can control. So that was a huge part of it for me. And this kind of fantasy that if right, if like, My food is somehow perfect, that other things will be perfect, too. But it doesn’t really work out that way. Unfortunately,
Victoria Volk 33:29
I’m gonna tie this to Grief, because in grief, one of the sterbs often mentioned or that people struggle with is with food. And with the pandemic, and people have lost people in their life and or maybe their job or they’re struggling with, maybe they’ve lost friendships over the divide that’s happened and all of the stuff that’s going on, I just want people to reflect on what their relationship is to food today versus pre pandemic like, and how has that changed for them?
Hannah Howard 34:06
I’ve heard from friends and colleagues in the eating disorder world and read some things that it’s it’s a really tough time for. I mean, it makes sense because this is a tough time for so many people, like you said for so many different reasons. And maybe food is also a symptom that shows up in people’s lives. But I know that like eating disorder units and hospitals have been completely overbooked, and therapists have no room on their schedules. And I think this has come up in the last year and a half or so many so many of us. Yeah
Victoria Volk 34:39
But the route isn’t the food. That’s what you know, and that’s why I want to feel like it’s important to say and it’s grief. Grief is the issue. You know, grief is grief is our secondary pandemic to the pandemic but I do think it was our pandemic well before the pandemic. So what would you give for Tip Two? Someone who might be struggling today,
Hannah Howard 35:02
Again, to remind you that you’re not alone. You know, there’s so many people out there who are struggling to or who have been through really, really, really hard, dark stuff and kind of come out the other side. And I would also say that, you know, this too shall pass. And people have told me that before. And sometimes it’s like, no, this is I’m going to feel this way forever. But even the most painful, awful feelings, dissipate with time and some some kindness. So it’s not going to feel this way forever.
Victoria Volk 35:44
I want to reflect something back to you. Because I think it’s not just time, but you actually took action. Yeah, you sent an email that changed the trajectory of your life experience that led to that group that you kept going back to for support. So you took action. I just wanted to highlight that.
Hannah Howard 36:06
Yes, I think that’s huge, too. And I think sometimes when we’re feeling at our worst, like, action, just feel so overwhelming. But right, even that a little little like one email a little step a little showing up reaching out to someone making a call, taking a moment for yourself, whatever it is, like these small actions really add up and create momentum and for me, have led to change in a big way.
Victoria Volk 36:35
Yeah, growth is not in our comfort zones, for sure. So yeah, congratulations for stepping out. And I’m curious to how when you found out you’re pregnant with your first daughter, was that just kind of another hurdle that you felt like you had to like, kind of tackle because, you know, with my first I gained like, a ton of weight a ton of weight? And I yeah, my relationship to food was horrible. was horrible, then do. But so can you tell me, you know, just kind of dig into that a little bit, like the pregnancy. And,
Hannah Howard 37:10
Sure, well, my first pregnancy ended up with a miscarriage, which was one of the hardest things that I’ve been through, which was really tough. And even though it wasn’t necessarily, I mean, it is very different than an eating disorder. But I felt some similar feelings and that my body had let me down. And so that kind of disappointment with my body, in a way was familiar, although the scope felt bigger and sadder, because and then, pretty soon thereafter, we got I got pregnant again, and had a healthy pregnancy and had my daughter, Simone. And I was really kind of gearing up for because I’ve heard so many stories of people. I’ve heard people, you know, the doctor is shaming them about gaining too much weight during their pregnancy or right, they can’t stop eating, like, you know, weird combinations of food are so hard on so many stories that I was worried about what was going to happen, but I feel like it was really things to recovery, that I was able to trade it pretty much trust my body. I definitely like I was nauseous in the early days, and I ate a ton of bagels, butter, which is like not a huge part of my usual diet. But that’s what felt good. And I’m so grateful that I could just okay, that’s, that’s, you know, I ate a lot of bagels of butter for a few months. Nothing bad, nothing bad came in that, you know, I feel like very lucky that it was a much more positive and serene experience than I had expected that it would be. And I definitely gained weight. And it’s definitely had uncomfortable thoughts. Because, you know, as women were really taught that like, even like any kind of weight gain is like taboo in a way even when we’re growing a baby. But I was also like, so proud of my body like it made this amazing, baby. And, you know, people had said, I’ve heard this advice in recovery and in general for having like a healthy body image to kind of appreciate your body for what it does, right for we’re giving hugs, we’re walking around, we’re, you know, all these things that our bodies do, instead of how they look. But that, to me, that was just kind of like words. And then But then once my body was like making a baby, it felt that felt really real like whoa, this is crazy. It’s wild, you know that we grow babies inside of ourselves. So it gave me a whole new it gave me a really new appreciation for my body and how amazing it was.
Victoria Volk 39:58
Do you think that actually to help train form, like, and kind of trickled into your relationship with food too. But you know, because I think it really comes down to self love, right? Like self love,
Hannah Howard 40:10
Absolutely. And I still hold on to that, like we all do, you know, we all kind of, it’s not like one day we’re sick. And then the next day were completely perfectly well, like, we kind of have these old ideas. And I think that there’s still a part of me that was trapped, like, you know, that was kind of like thought it was always better to eat something that was later. Like, there’s always a little part of me that wanted to restrict my food. And that kind of turned off when I was pregnant. Because also, I was just like, really hungry. But I didn’t feel that judgment towards myself, because I was like, No, I’m, I’m very new person. And, yeah, I think it’s really been a positive thing for my food and body relationship.
Victoria Volk 40:57
How about postpartum?
Hannah Howard 40:59
Yeah, um, I mean, I feel like I had such an intense postpartum experience, because it was right at those early days of pandemic times. Where, so I, we ended up kind of packing up my parents car, because my husband and I lived in an apartment in New York City, and moving in with my parents for a while. And so we had thought I got into this, like, late, and I’m a food writer. And so you know, my life has always involved like, going to eat all these wonderful restaurant meals, and hosting cheese tastings, and, and then all of a sudden, we were like, going to the grocery store as little as we could, you know, stocking up, and it’s early days. And so food was really different. But it was also kind of nice to like, cook, you know, cook our own meals, and my mom was a great cook, and she cooked a lot for us, which was such a treat. So it was interesting, and it was an eye and I was worried, too, you know, I’ve heard these people like, fear about their bodies changing and all these crazy ways. And my body changed in a lot of ways. And I and I don’t necessarily feel like amazing about all of them. But it was it was like, okay, you know, I ended up fitting into my clothes that I was wearing before pregnancy, like perfectly fine with some time. And I kind of felt like the left side, the left I obsessed about it, the more things just kind of worked out and took care of themselves. And I hope that that’s the case for the second time around.
Victoria Volk 42:48
Well, and I think a key component to that is having support along the way to, you know, you said to me with therapy, and you have, you know, family that supports you and, and all of that. And I think that’s so important and the friendships that you’ve made throughout recovery that you still have. And
Hannah Howard 43:07
Absolutely, because there’s definitely still like, shaky moments and anxious moments that I have. And I think we all do, but they used to really just like take over my life and now they’re just a small a small part of the day.
Victoria Volk 43:22
Well, it’s just like when this when the when a special day comes around, you know, an anniversary of the death of someone or diagnosis or something like that, you know what’s coming and you kind of can plan for it. But many Grievers that’s they have to take that time and give themselves the time to take care of themselves during those days, and it’s recognizing within ourselves what we need. What would you like to scream to the world in wish people knew about your, your grief and experience?
Hannah Howard 43:53
Well, let’s see. I felt let’s see go for in terms of grief. I was kind of shocked how deeply sad and how much loss I felt when I lost this pregnancy. And I think in a way in a similar way to the eating disorder experience. It really helped me I what I started to, I remember like just a few days later watching these clips and on YouTube of Beyonce talking about her pregnancy loss. And it was like, Oh, hey, Beyonce went through this. I mean, I don’t I’m not I like Beyonce, but I’m not like I’m not like obsessed with Beyonce or something but it’s just it felt so healing or reading. I’m reading other people’s stories. And I think just that like you are not alone. You have people who love you. We can get through this together.
Victoria Volk 44:56
Throughout your grief experience what has given you the most joy And, and what gives you hope for the future? Like throughout this whole journey?
Hannah Howard 45:05
Yeah, I think it really is like we kind of touched on this crazy alchemy of how something that felt like the worst part of my life, certainly, like, the most painful, shameful stuff became this really positive thing in a way because it helped me show up in a, in such a deeper way. It helped me connect with people who I really love today and help to me, it helps me kind of grow emotionally and like as a human. So I feel like that still, to me feel feels wild that what I thought was, the worst thing has turned out to be something that I’m grateful for, like genuinely. And if you would have told me that, like years ago would have made me laugh, but it’s true.
Victoria Volk 45:55
I would say the same thing about my life. And it comes back to your books. And those wouldn’t be out today, if you wouldn’t have had this experience. And you wouldn’t be where you are today with recovery.
Hannah Howard 46:10
Yeah, I got this new book.
Victoria Volk 46:11
It’s a beautiful cover.
Hannah Howard 46:14
Thank you. Yeah, it’s really I really love how it came out. Yeah, and it feels like such a joy. I mean, I’ve always loved to write and always wanted to write a book and Nigeria, getting to do that and just feels like the biggest privilege.
Victoria Volk 46:29
So you never imagined yourself as an author,
Hannah Howard 46:33
I hope to be a published author, but it felt a little bit like a pipe dream. And now, my reality.
Victoria Volk 46:38
So tell us a little bit about your books.
Hannah Howard 46:41
Absolutely. So the first book called Feast. They’re both memoirs. So they’re both both personal stories. The first one is about this journey, working through restaurants and food stores, and falling in love with food and also about the struggle and recovery from the eating disorder. So it’s really a book about my like food and journey. And then plenty is about meeting my husband. It’s about experiencing this miscarriage and then again, a pregnancy. And it’s also about finding a community of amazing women in the food world. So there’s a chapter about a cheesemaker. There’s a chapter about a Somali a, there’s a chapter about a barge pilot who barges around the South of France to amazing food. So you know, it starts with myself. But then I also talk about all these other other amazing food women.
Victoria Volk 47:43
Very nice thing else you’d like to share?
Hannah Howard 47:45
I think that’s it. Thank you so much. But what a joy to get to talk. And thank you for your beautiful question.
Victoria Volk 47:54
Thank you so much for being here. And where can people find you if they want to reach out?
Hannah Howard 47:59
I have a website, hannahhoward.nyc and I’m on Instagram. I’m hannahmhoward
Victoria Volk 48:07
And I will put the links for the books and your contact info on the show notes. Thank you again, for this timely conversation. I know I’m going to reflect on it well after today. And give honestly more deep thought into my personal relationship with food in how I want to emulate how important it is that we really truly think about our food in a nourishing way. For spirit for bodies, rather than like this thing that you just have to eat to sustain yourself just so you wake up tomorrow, you know, it’s like, it’s it’s more than just that right?
Hannah Howard 48:53
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. I mean, right. We do have to eat to sustain ourselves. But then, yeah, there’s sort of concentric circles for sure. Yeah, I feel like I’ve also been writing about food for so many years. And every time I think, am I gonna get bored of this? Like, no, there’s so much more to explore, and so many levels and ways that it touches on us, culturally, and emotionally and historically, and agriculturally and environmentally and just a huge, a huge topic. And it’s so rich and I love getting to explore it.
Victoria Volk 49:30
It is I think is there’s so many layers to it. I never really thought a lot of it either until I was preparing for our conversation. And I mean, you think about it, it touches our economy, our homes, and it stems back to our childhood and our culture and how we were raised with food and just all of it Yeah, it’s fascinating, fascinating. So I look forward to digging in a little bit more into my own real nation ship with food prompted by our conversation and your great share, so thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast |
Phoebe Leona | I’m Only Grieving Fridays
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Like many kids, Phoebe grew up in a broken home. Her parents split up when she was 7 and she would remain living with her father until she turned 14. With her own knowing and willpower, she left her father to go live with her grandmother until landing back with her mother.
What she experienced between ages 7 and 14 was a frightening relationship with her father, a Vietnam vet, who was struggling with PTSD along with alcohol and drug abuse. Despite loving her father, she knew wasn’t safe in his care. And, life wasn’t done throwing curveballs Phoebe’s way either. It would be a long journey for her to find her own radiance.
Fast forward to adulthood, she reconnected with her father when he called her one Father’s Day out of the blue, after having been rehabilitated and desiring to build a connection again with his daughter. Only, this newfound connection wouldn’t last; four years later, Phoebe’s father died suddenly of a heart attack in his sleep.
Struggling to cope with the death of her father in that first year, Phoebe made a commitment to herself to only grieve on Fridays. And, this seemed to be working for her a time in her mind until one bright, sunshiny day, after feeling like the fog was lifting, her husband sat her down and said he wanted a divorce.
She would find herself living in Costa Rica, looking for a life reset and to reclaim what she wanted for life as Phoebe 2.0 after grief came like a steamroller, leaving heartbreak in its wake. What followed were a lot of lessons, healing, and a re-discovery process of who Phoebe was before her life fell apart and everything went downhill as a child.
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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of the Unleashed heart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss as a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thanks. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. If this is your first time welcome, and if you’ve listened before, thank you. Today, my guest is Phoebe Leona. She is a dancer, yoga teacher and transformational guide who helps men and women feel more embodied through somatic movement and expanded awareness practices to become more empowered in who they are, who they’re becoming, and have a greater sense of belonging. She has been a teacher and a guide for most of her life, but it was after a year of extreme loss in 2013, when she found herself in the vast open space in between her old life and a new life that she dove deeply into our practices, and began her company Nomad to help others through their own transitions and spaces in between. Throughout that time, Phoebe has developed her own movement, somatic practice movement 109 for students to fully embrace the freedom of moving in their bodies, transform old unhealed patterns and reclaim the vibrations and stories they want to bring to life. Baby also finds joy in sharing her story to help others in their own healing. You can learn more about Phoebe’s story on her TED Talk, her podcast the space in between. And there are two upcoming books due to launch in 2021. Ah, no more a multi author book and embodied radiants for solo book by Grace point publishing. Thank you so much for bringing your story and your background to my listeners today.
Phoebe Leona 2:23
Oh, you’re so welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me here today. Victoria, such a joy to be able to be with you
Victoria Volk 2:29
Talking about the vibration and energy and finding a movement practice that we enjoy isn’t can be a struggle for many people and raising my hand right now. I’ve often struggled with trying to find something I enjoy. And yet I don’t get bored with and yet serves me wants to be in pain when they’re moving. You know, I really want to dig into that at some point. But what led you to this work you mentioned in the bio losses in 2013. So let’s start there.
Phoebe Leona 3:05
Sure, yeah. So 2013. I’ll go back a little bit prior to that. So my childhood, I was primarily raised by my father, my parents split up when I was seven. And when my parents split up, I lived with my father until I was about 14 years old. Now, my father had done two tours of Vietnam. And at that point, they didn’t really know anything about PTSD. So he had been going to the VA many times in the early 80s, mid 80s, and basically saying, you know, something’s wrong with me. Now. During that time, he decided to basically take care of himself with hard, very hard drugs. And so he was in and out of rehab for the better part of my like late teens, or late, like pre pubescent years. And I made the choice because it’s getting so bad with his relapsed with the rage with the flashbacks. And we didn’t have all of those words. At that time. We didn’t know what a flashback was, he was just not there. So there was nothing that made sense. And it was becoming very, very unsafe for me. So I decided to leave when I was 1414, almost 15 And I went to live with my grandmother, I moved back into live with my mom, fast forward, you know, he was no longer in my life at that time. And he had disappeared, not knowing if he was dead or alive or homeless or you know, in the hospital or in jail. So there was a grieving that was happening during that period of my life. But I didn’t. I didn’t know that.
Phoebe Leona 4:35
It wasn’t as you’re holding the space for people to empower them and leaning into that grief. I didn’t have that space. It was just okay, let’s grow up now. Right. Dad’s not in the picture. Let’s just, you know, put on our big girl pants and go out there and, you know, become the woman that I’m supposed to be. So there were no there weren’t a lot of conversations that were happening for me to understand that I was grieving. And then when I entered into early adulthood, I met someone in, in college and we ended up getting married at 20 at 28. And then when I was, I think like 32 years old, my father called me on Father’s Day. And he had been rehabilitated, he was actually arrested for drug possession and intent to sell. And it was actually the biggest gift because he was thrown into jail. And he started having conversations with, I’m not sure who but someone in there, and they said, Listen, you have a PTSD problem, and we need to send you to a VA. And so he went on his path of recovery, he became sober, I think he was sober for about 11 years before he entered my life again, he was heavily medicated. So he was that he was rehabilitated, he was sober, yet he was completely numbed out on life thing, another blessing happened for him was that he almost died of lithium poisoning. And basically, that was his 22nd time. So when he was in the hospital this second time, and basically on his deathbed, without me knowing any of this, he he got out of whatever that was, it came across and said, I don’t want this anymore. I don’t want any more, as he called them head drugs. And he just had a cloud lifted. And he remembered, remembered who I was, he remember that he had this beautiful daughter, and he wanted to reconnect. And a few months after, you know, he got out of the hospital, and he was getting healthier. He called me on Father’s Day in 2009. And it was really quite beautiful. I mean, there were a lot of layers to that, as you can imagine, there were a lot of questions that I had. And there was, again, a little bit of the grief of the loss time, right for both of us. But again, we didn’t really speak into that we didn’t speak into that piece, we really just started in the present moment, we had four really beautiful years together. I was, as I said, before I was married and we were living in New York City and my father was in Connecticut. So we decided to move a bit out of the city so that I could see him more we moved to the Hudson Valley. And it was sort of like everything’s clicking into place my Daddy’s back in my life, I’m you know, doing the thing that people usually do when they get a little bit older, move out of the city settled down, buy a house, you know, have a have a stable job, because I’d been a dancer kind of running around being in this chaotic city life for so many years. So everything sort of was just like click, click, click into place. So 2013 My on January 8, my father died, quite suddenly died in a sleep of heart attack. And it was it just it shook me it was it was all of the grief, not just in that time and space. But all of the grief that I hadn’t experienced when he had left the first time or when I had left that first time. And, and the conversations we didn’t have I was now grieving now why didn’t I say this or that or, and so that cracked me wide open, I probably had, you know, and your listeners who were here, they probably know that, you know that first month is just kind of putting together the funeral and getting, you know, taking care of the estate. It’s just that, you know, you’re going in that functional mode of just how do I survive, right. And then once that, that service happens, I think that’s when we can we drop down. And so that second month was really challenging. It was a really dark, dark time for me. And I had basically said to myself, because I had you know, I was running a yoga program. And I said, Okay, I’m going to grieve on Fridays
Phoebe Leona 8:47
With grief, and I said, listen, you’re getting in my way, you’re getting in the way of my marriage, you’re getting in the way of my job. And you know, I’m serving people here, I can’t just break down and cry in my yoga class in front of my students. I have to keep this together, you know, and is sort of that old story that I had told myself from, you know, previous loss. Basically, I don’t have anything to do my husband in the city, I can grieve whatever that wants to look like. So I might get my journals out and write for her. I might watch a movie that makes me laugh or makes me cry. I might look at pictures, I might tear them up. I might just sit and stare at the fire. I mean, it was just would that wildcard whatever needed to come out. I just let it come out. But then the cap had to come back on when the husband came home. And as you can imagine, that didn’t go so well. And so my I was noticing that my husband was coming home later and later on those Fridays. And so I think it was the first week of March where he came home rather late and I just I couldn’t put it together. I was just I sat on the couch I was crying hysterically. He was sitting on the other side of the room on another couch and basically staring at me. And I just kept saying to myself, Why isn’t he coming to me? Why isn’t he putting his arms around me? Why isn’t he? Why can’t he see my pain? Why can’t he be with me? And I somehow find that found my way upstairs into bed. And I will get up the next morning, and I woke up to the sun just beaming on my face. And it was almost like everything just lifted. For this time I woke up, I was like, oh, maybe this is it. Maybe I’m done. And I looked at my phone, the weather, and it said, abundant sunshine. And I was like, Yes, I’m going to choose that. So I got up by went off to work. And I came back thinking I was going to go for a hike with my husband, we’re going to start to make plans for our future, because I was done with this grief. And he sat me down and he said, I want to divorce. And so there was like this whole other layer of grief that that unfolded. So that was the beginning of the grief in 2013. And it’s really been this eight year journey of just making friends with grief. And I really appreciate it. I think you’ve spoken to your 30 year re I don’t remember how you worded it, but you’re a 30 year griever. Is that correct? Is that how you
Victoria Volk 11:20
30 30 plus your Griever? Yeah,
Phoebe Leona 11:22
Great. I agree. Very Yeah. And I think that that’s really important for everybody to understand that it isn’t just what I was saying, Oh, I’m done. Check that off the list. It is it comes in layers. And it’s not linear. It’s, there’s no, there’s no way of really saying, Oh, I’m done grieving. Now. We’re always in that recovery state in some way. And we’ll make it a little bit better some days. Right. So yeah, that’s kind of where it started. To answer your question.
Victoria Volk 11:52
Thank you for sharing. And that is, there’s a lot that’s a lot at one time. I imagine you had other micro losses in between them, because with divorce, you probably had to move. Yeah. All those sorts of things, too, right?
Phoebe Leona 12:07
Oh, yeah, it was. I mean, as I said, that was just the beginning of it. It was like a domino effects. Yes, I did move out of my house. We the divorce went like that. I mean, it was so fast. We had a mediator, it’s very quick in New York. So it happened within three months, we also had a dog that we had to put down, my health was deteriorating, I ended up leaving my job. And it was it was just an all of the other, you know, the micros stuff to go into my dad, I was still packing up his estate and still grieving, you know, the things that I was giving away to his friends are keeping. So there were there were those a lot that was happening. It basically came to a head in October, where that year where I just kept waking up in the morning. And I said and I’d been in the ER twice for for mysterious pain in my body. They thought that it was ovarian cyst, or it was a UTI, they just couldn’t identify exactly what it was. So I just kept waking up in the morning and looking in the mirror and saying, I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t know who I am. I don’t recognize this person. And I texted my mom and I said, I need to come visit you. And she was about four and a half hours away from where I was living. And she said, Yeah, sure, come whenever and I said, I’ll come out this weekend when I’m not working. And then it just within five minutes. That was I’m getting in the car right now. I’m getting in the car right now. I can’t do this anymore. And I got in the car and I drove and I said What am I what am I doing here? And I basically arrived and they said, I have an idea. But you can also I know I’m not in the right state of mind. If if you want to commit me, that’s okay. Like it was to that point where I just thought every choice I’m making is not the quote unquote, right choice right now. But she actually this is where Nomad came out of it. The the business that you were speaking of in the intro, when I was driving, I said, What are the things that I love to do? I have to make a change here. I have to I have to embody my life again, I have to clean my life again. Because everything is just being taken away from me. And I said, Well, what are the things that I love? And I said, I love I love teaching. I still love teaching yoga. And I love I would love to travel more. And so by the time I got to mom’s and I had been sort of playing with these ideas for you know, over the years, but I said, I want to start my own business of a building yoga retreat, and I want to leave my job that was you know, a salary job that was secure and stable was probably I mean, from the outside looking at it was probably the only thing that was stable in my life at that time, but it really wasn’t there was like a lot of, you know, dynamics in that job that weren’t healthy. And she said, Yeah, do it. And they said Are you sure? I’m not crazy, right? And she said, Yeah, you know, do what you need to do, I’ll support you. And I had played with these ideas for a bit of time about what I what I wanted to create for myself, because I was in that place of wanting to empower and reclaim my life after everything was being taken away from me. And those two, those two things were yoga, and traveling. And by the time I got to the, to the other side of the, what I call the space in between drive between the old life and my new life, claiming my new life that she was really, really supportive. And, and that’s what I did. I think I arrived October 20, or 24th. And I gave my notice October 28, which was actually my dad’s birthday. And, and then a year later, is when I launched my business. So I took a bit of time, I went to Costa Rica, I dealt with a lot of shadows there. But it was my reset, you know, and I can talk more into that. But yeah, I had this kind of reset time. And then I came back to New York, and I started my business on his birthday, a year later, which was really quite special and beautiful.
Victoria Volk 16:13
What did it look like when you? First of all, I think here’s what I want listeners to hear is that you decided, you decided that you wanted more for your life, that you weren’t going to be a victim to grief, which it often makes us feel like we don’t have choices like we. And I often say to it, it puts a veil over our face. So when you said you looked in the mirror and you didn’t recognize yourself, that’s many Grievers. That’s, that’s what a lot of people say. But in a different way. Like everyone says the same thing. It’s just different language. But that’s what it does. We can’t we get disconnected from ourselves. Yeah. And so when we look in the mirror, we don’t see ourselves for who we are, who we really are. And we don’t see the potential of who we could be either, when we have all this emotional stuff, unsettled within us. And so what did that look like? What did Costa Rica look like? How did you because you said your health was deteriorating? Then they’re done that grief, it’s, this is what happens in grief. Right? And so what did that rebuild, and reset look like?
Phoebe Leona 17:24
Yeah, before I go there, when I just reflect back what you just said, too, because I think that really is important to highlight that we have those choices, even in the midst of grief. And to kind of tuck into what I said before about how I just, you know, pulled on my big girl pants, and just the grief is not gonna get me there is this there’s this play between both right? It’s this claiming your life, but it’s not. It’s not this avoidance of grief. It’s really what I think of as dancing with it. Like, okay, but I’m going to take the lead right now. And you might take the lead sometimes, but it’s not going to it’s not going to completely take over, like you said the veil. And so yeah, I just wanted to reflect that. So in terms of Costa Rica, so I gave my notice. In the end of October, and I, the next question was was okay, what do I need right now? What do I need right now, because staying in New York winter, and being depressed, I might slit my wrists, like, and I did, like, I just, I mean, I joke about that, but I, I, I didn’t know even though I knew what I wanted, I still wasn’t over that hump of, of recovery to a place that I felt stable enough. So I said, Okay, I need to go somewhere where it’s sunny. And there’s a lot of little logistical things I don’t need to go into but I landed somehow in Costa Rica, in January, like two days before the first anniversary when my father died. And I, I truly believe that he put me in that place. He he put me in that place. A year later, after he died. I just felt it in my bones that you know, there were so many signs and you probably have had this or your listeners have had this where you just you can feel the presence of your lost loved one is, you know, with, you know, interactions with people or, you know, animal totems, or, or, you know, just receiving dreams and, and I had all of that I had all of these signs that my dad was was putting in Costa Rica for a reason. So I had only gone there for the intention of, I think like two weeks, I had learned about this hostel that had yoga and surf and Spanish lessons and I thought, let’s go check out. Let’s go just be in the sun. Be in the ocean. That’ll be very healing for me. And within a week I had met the This man who I swear was brought to me by my father, an older man, he actually had very similar features as him. And it was just this night, he owned a restaurant in town. And we just started talking. And I told him everything. I told him this whole story that I told you, and your listeners, and he called me the next day, and he said, I have a job for you. And I have a place for you to live. And he, he basically, like orchestrated it that day, he took me to show me the place that he’s and he even told me, you know, he showed me two places, and he said, get this second bedroom, because you can rent it out. And it’s not that much more expensive. Is it? Okay, and so and then we had this hug at some point. And he said something like, Oh, it’s so good to feel you. And not like, in a weird, creepy way. It was just like, just like, Dad, I mean, the way that he said it, and the way that he hugged me, I was like, That was that was confirmation that this was my father. And so I ended up staying there for about nine months. And during that time, I had met people that were really loving. And were really allowing me to be me. And I had realized I had not been me for a very long time. I and I was really tracing it back. And I can’t tell you literally, if this is when it happened. But it’s been happening over the last eight years where I realized I had shut the the, you know, when when she walked out that door, when she was 14 years old, when she left her dad, I had left her behind. And and that was the period where I was starting to reclaim her again and check in with her what she loved to do you know what lit her up, but also the shadows that she hadn’t dealt with when she was living with a father who was dealing with, you know, PTSD and drug drug addictions. And so a lot of those shadows came back. And
Phoebe Leona 8:47
It was, it was a beautiful time. I don’t regret it. But it was a really, really hard time. There was a lot of crying. Crying on the beach, there was a lot of dancing though, too. I mean, there was everything. And that’s the, that’s the really interesting thing about grief is that it’s not just what we think about grief is just I sit there and I cry, right? There’s anger too. And I got really angry. I had had a short relationship there. And I was poor guy. I really took all of my anger out that I had for my father I had for my ex husband. And I took it out on this one person. And so I really danced in all of the shadows. But there was also this beautiful joy, like this pure joy that was there too. So I experienced it all.
Victoria Volk 22:40
How did you make that transition then back home? And where was home?
Phoebe Leona 22:46
Yeah, that’s a good question. I’m still kind of figuring that out. I think it was May I had decided, Oh, I’m gonna live in Costa Rica. This is my life. And I came home, I sold everything because I had been subletting my apartment. And I basically said, Okay, I’m doing this, I came back to Costa Rica. And I was like, This is it, this is my home. And immediately Costa Rica was like, Nope, you’re not here anymore. And all of these relationships that I had built, were just breaking. And all of these circumstances that used to flow easily just were like doors closing, Costa Rica is a beautiful, very magical, very spiritual, there’s a vortex that that was very healing for the time and space that I needed. But it was also like, Okay, now you need to go and live your life, it’s time to reintegrate and really claim who you said you were here and explored it, go back to your quote, unquote, full of life and claim it. So I was there for probably may think I came back in August, so a couple of months. And they said, Alright, this is it, you know, I was getting more messages that I needed to start the business in my, in my old community, because I already had a following there. And I was getting clear on what that was going to look like. So home at that time, came back to New York, in the Hudson Valley. And they started teaching at all the studios that I had made connections with over the years and and basically, that’s what happened was, I stepped into that. And then there was like a whole other layer right of that reintegration. So I feel like Costa Rica was another big gap, that big space in between where I was, like, sorting out the old stuff. And then I was bringing it back into this sort of new life that I was still in the old life and a lot of ways, you know, my still is kind of meeting up with my ex husband on a friend, you know, he had already moved on but like we were start trying to handle a friendship that we clearly figured out but that wasn’t healthy. So there was there was just this reintegration and and it probably took about three or four years to find my flooding again, to be really honest.
Victoria Volk 24:56
Yeah, and I think this is the first time I’m the first time I’m going to say this on this podcast of all the conversations I’ve had with people. That sounds really exhausting. I mean, really, it sounds really exhausting. And that’s what grief is. It’s exhausting. And as it is a progress of new chapter after new chapter after New Chapter, but we don’t get there. You don’t get there from from there, right? You don’t get to where you are, by staying where you don’t get where you want to go by staying where you are. Right. And so it is an exhausting, it can feel like an exhausting process along the way. But I think the more in tune, you become with your in with yourself and your energy in your vibration and in in get more aligned, it does flow more easily. It does come more easily. You can lean into that those days in that grief when when they come but they don’t debilitate you, right like they did before. And I think that’s what you mean with the in between it’s, it’s ugly, and it’s messy. But it’s necessary. It really is. I think it’s just part of part of the process. And it’s going to look differently for many people for everybody. And it’s not going to be how many years? 4,5,8, 8 years?
Phoebe Leona 26:32
Since 2013? Yeah, eight years.
Victoria Volk 26:35
Yeah for me, it was seven. You know, and it’s like, one day, I’m like, Oh, I’m sick of feeling this way. And yeah, you know, and then, yeah
Phoebe Leona 26:48
Yeah, um, yeah, and, you know, seven, and I feel like seven for me was the magic number two, and that’s, you know, there’s the idea that all of our cells have regenerated every seven years. So there’s something about that I knew that, that I had that knowledge. But there was this moment where I thought, I think I’m done. And actually, I changed my claim reclaimed my own last name, because I had changed it back to the, you know, my maiden name. And I felt like, I’m done with that part of me, you know, that. And I, we’ve made our mens and now I want to reclaim my own and actually stepped into my own last name at year seven. So
Victoria Volk 27:34
Well, just like there was a podcast episode was Siri, bernson. Medium. And she mentioned the site or life cycle is, yeah, they say seven years, the astrological cycles seven year cycle. So yeah, very fascinating. If you think about it. Yeah. 714. Yeah, pivotal times of my life, too. Right. So yeah,
Phoebe Leona 27:57
It’s chill. Yeah. I have chills thinking about that. Exactly. It’s, yeah, there’s something what I through this whole process, and I think I always was, you know, in tune in some level, but through this whole process of grief, it really, it really confirmed that there’s something bigger going on here. There’s something so much bigger going on here. And you know, what you were just saying about the seven there’s so many truths that we can’t explain how do we like really explain that, right? We have, we figure it out in our brain. So it’s, you know, our cells are regenerating? That’s what science. So there’s, you know, what series was talking about with, you know, the astrology. But yeah, there’s something else going on here. We might, we might have those, those things that tell us and in kind of quantify it and make it make sense of it, but really, we might not ever really know, right? That mystery. And grief is very mysterious.
Victoria Volk 28:57
Yes. Yes. But that’s kind of the beauty in it, too. Because you, you don’t know exactly where it’s going to lead you. Yeah. And you might have an idea in your mind of, you know, if I would have told you, you’re gonna have your own business, like when this first started. Yeah, I would have said to you, you’re gonna have your own business, you’re gonna be doing retreats, and you’re gonna be traveling and yeah. When you were like in the thick of it, you would have been like, Yeah, can we just fast forward to that, please?
Phoebe Leona 29:31
Well, and you know, as you say, that were laughing and I was, and I was thinking to if somebody had said, Oh, you’re gonna end up living in Costa Rica, and I’m like, oh, that sounds really fabulous. Yeah, sure. But it was also really crappy.
Victoria Volk 29:44
Beautiful place, but
Phoebe Leona 29:45
In a beautiful place. Yeah. So we don’t know. We really don’t know and to just, I don’t know it sounds silly, but to just keep going, you know, on those days, and it’s not, it’s not in a place to avoid cuz just to say, Okay, let’s just keep going, there’s something else pulling me forward, there’s something some reason why I’m going through this loss right now. And maybe it’s for a deeper healing within myself. And or maybe it’s, I have a purpose to help others like you, right? You’re holding space for us Grievers. And you know, whether we’re sitting in front of you speaking or someone’s listening, you might have had to go through that, so that you’re here holding the space for us. And, and, you know, I have, I’m writing my, as you said, in the introduction, I’m writing my book. And it’s, it’s a lot of my story. It’s a lot of the, you know, I write letters to different emotions, and one being, I have a big one on grief. And it’s, I got really angry when I started to get to the realization that I was going to share this story with people because I’m, you know, I’m sharing a lot with you here. But there’s also a lot more to the story that we can’t put in, you know, however long we’re here today. But I really opened my heart and soul up into this book and reveal things that I haven’t even revealed to people who are really close to me and my family are people that you know, my dear friends, and I got really angry, because I was like, Why did this have to happen to me, in order for me to help people, but when it comes down to it when I get to that really dark, deep place within me, and I get really sad and angry, and I go, okay, but there is a trust there is something bigger going on here. And and then I get a message from somebody, you know, Oh, I saw your poster. I heard you on this podcast, and you go, okay. This is an ego. This is like, this is truly. Okay. I have to keep going. So I just wanted to speak into that a little bit.
Victoria Volk 31:55
I use the Five Minute Journal and the quote, or the thing today is the secret of happiness is to find something more important than you are and dedicate your life do it. Oh, I got chills. Like Dan. Yes. The Dennett made me think of that and purpose through the pain you often hear sometimes. But in that process of unraveling. That’s what I like to call it for me an unraveling. What were some of the things that well, what’s one tip that you would give others that are going through that unraveling?
Phoebe Leona 32:37
Yeah, well, there’s so many. Well, you know, I’ll bring it to because you spoke You spoke earlier about your experience with movement and how you said you didn’t want to move with pain. I think that’s how you worded it right. And I, I’d like to use that tip to lean into the movement. Because I think that a lot of us are scared to be in our bodies. We’re scared to grieve. These are two different things in a way, but they’re really the same, right? Where we’re scared to grieve, we’re scared to really lean into all the shadows that sit in that space of grief. We’re also just in general, whether you consider yourself a Griever or not, we’re a lot of human beings are scared to be in their body. And so if we can start to make friends, because really our body and our breath are like partners, they’re with us. Good, bad, ugly, all of it. Right? It’s with us the whole time. And, and so if we can start to lean in to asking the body, what is the message here? Right? We can also ask, great, what is the message here? But if you can lean into your body and say, What is this like you call it pain? What is this pain here telling me. And so during that time that I was in the ER, I was having a lot of pain in my lower right side. And I have actually have two things that I want to share if that’s okay. But I was having a lot of pain there. And it was really like, my body was pissed, like literally pissed off. It was I was having these UTIs is a lot of heat in the system. You know, in Chinese medicine, they talk about heat, and there was so much heat in my body and I’m so pissed off about all the things that were being taken away from me. And that was my body actually reacting to that. I was literally like pissed off at the world. And so when I started to lean in and go, Okay, Bodhi, you’re mad. Okay, let’s, um, let’s figure out another way to to, you know, make friends with each other. And so I started to do very organic movement. And you know, I was a very active person prior to that I was I was presently at that time, a yoga teacher. I was a professional dancer before that. And so I was very connected to my body and love to move but I was realizing I wasn’t treating my body in a way A that was nurturing. And so that’s where I started to do a bit more organic movement and having these conversations and asking the questions like body, what do you have for me here today. One other thing that I want to share with that is to go back to 2012. I had, this was where everything was clicking into place, everything was clicking. And my my yoga program was just about to start. We just bought our house. And my husband and I went to a baseball game and I had like a little summer colds. At that time I was recovering from and we had gone to this baseball game. And one of his co workers who’s a woman came with her boyfriend we didn’t we just sort of bumped into them. And you know, we had a little bit of a conversation, everything. And there were fireworks afterwards. And the co workers boyfriend was actually in the fire department. So he was the one who like let the fire works off. So they had left and I started coughing, and I started to have like what I would think was an asthma attack. Now I never had had asthma before. I couldn’t I could not breathe. I was my face was turning purple. My husband said should I take you to the hospital. And it was just like squeaked out no, because I was scared of like all of that, you know, the anxiety of that on top of it. So at some point, it cleared, and then it turned into bronchitis. It turned into bronchitis for about four months. And to take you now, like a few months after that I had gotten to the acupuncturists after, you know, in the midst of the, in the midst of everything, and I checked everything off, and she said, Okay, when did you have this bronchitis? And I said, Oh, last summer, you know, and she said, she just put her hand on my hand cuz she knew what I was going through. And she looked into my eyes, and she said, Honey, you have been grieving your body knew that you were grieving. So lungs and Chinese medicine is grief. That person that we saw at the baseball game, is who my husband was having an affair. Now, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that I had no reason to believe that at the time, but my body knew.
Phoebe Leona 37:19
And so my tip is if you feel something in your body, lean into it. Now I’m not saying it’s going to be something big like that. But just start to make friends with it start to listen and say, Okay, there’s this thing that I call, like you said, the sensation of pain, I tried to take that word pain away, and ask what are you really telling me? So instead of it being this label pain, because that’s already a story and unconscious story of oh, it was that time when I was skating outside and I twisted my knee or whatever it is, right? We always we already have that story playing out. But what is the sensation? Is it sharp? Is it in? Is it isolated? Is it local? So is it isolated and localized? Or is it just radiating out right from one place out to the entire body. So you start to get really curious about the sensation. And in there, there might be some stories that we didn’t know that we had. And we can start to peel away those layers. And we might not consciously ever say, oh, it’s because this uh, this, like the story that I just told you. It might not be that literal, but you can start to play with it. And I really promise as you lean into it, things will start to shift.
Victoria Volk 38:34
That’s a great, great tip. Great tip.
Phoebe Leona 38:38
It was a long winded tip. But I hope it was worth it for everyone out there.
Victoria Volk 38:43
No, but I you know, like you said these strange pains that you ended up in the emergency room with twice. I had fibromyalgia like symptoms like no, you know, overall just aches and pains. Like Overall, like I just felt like you’re getting the flu, achy, I had chronic bronchitis year after year as a teenager, I would get it frequently. So it’s totally Yes, totally. Your body speaks all the time, your body into in, in like these things that are happening outside yourself. They’re not just happening there. They’re like an expression of what, you know, if we just pay attention to these messages. They’re not it’s like synchronicities, you know, but it’s have to actually see them to know what to do with them to like, look at them and be curious, like you said, what were some of the ways that you know you’re doing all this inner work yourself, but what were some of the ways that others were supporting you that you found the most helpful?
Phoebe Leona 39:47
That’s a good question. Can I just say one thing before I move on because you said something really. I wanted to just highlight is I think this is the biggest shift that that happened for me too, with With all that we’ve been speaking of, of shifting from how, why is it happening to me? As that’s the victim mentality of how is this happening for me? So why is this grief that I’m experiencing happening for me? How is this pain that I’m feeling in my body happening for me? And just that shift? That was what to lead to continue into your second question. That was something that I had was, I have beautiful teachers, you know, I have family that I’m really grateful for on my mother’s side. And then I also have have had teachers that I learned from and trust. And that was one of my teachers, nuggets of wisdom was just shifting that from it’s happening to me, but for me, or even with me, so in terms of the support from people, you said for me, right, not good. I was supporting. Yeah, I was going to make sure I’m clear.
Victoria Volk 40:58
In what ways did others support you as you were doing all of your inner work? And
Phoebe Leona 41:03
Yeah, so this was an interesting journey to was specifically with my mother, because what I had realized, was that with all of the scraping that was happening, and there was still some stuff that my mom and I hadn’t dealt with. And so I really had this opportunity to because I didn’t trust her. There was a lot that happened in my childhood, where it’s like, why did you leave me with this person that, you know, was a drug addict? Why did you let me do this, and this, you know, so a lot of that started to unpack in the process of the grief. And I kind of got a bit mad at her and regret and resented her and a bit. So we started to have these conversations. And it really gave her an opportunity to, I don’t want to say step it up. That’s the better word, like for her to really open her arms. And let me let me see that she has been here, but maybe not in the way that I wanted her to be. But she was there the way I needed her to be. And so you know, just that that day where I drove, you know, that I spoke to earlier driving there, and she’s had her arms open. That’s what I gave her a hug. And I said, I’m sorry. And she said, Oh, no, I’ve been waiting for this. I’ve been actually waiting for you to break down. Because every time she would drive, she drove to see me that five hour drive like, I think it was like had to have been eight or nine times that year, just back and forth. Whether it was okay, now it’s dealing with dad’s estate. Now it’s the divorce now it’s putting the dog down. Now it’s you’re at the hospital. So she like had been driving back and forth for so many times, and just kind of waiting for me to say, I can’t do this anymore. So it really took that break for me to see that she’s been here this whole time. And she had been there, but I wasn’t letting her and so this period was me allowing to be held again. You know? Yeah, I think I’ll stay there for a moment.
Victoria Volk 43:02
That’s, that’s a powerful point. Yeah. Because, you know, you know, my podcast art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone because you feel like you’re on an island like no one gets you no one understands me. Yeah, there for me, I’m not supported. But if you carry the weight of the world of this grief on your shoulders, and you just want to scream, like just hear me and you feel like it’s going nowhere. And but it’s not falling on deaf ears, there are people that want to support you, there are people that are holding space for you or want to, but you got to find your your way to yourself so you can let them it’s it really truly starts with us the self love that we are wanting so badly from other people, we have to start giving it to ourselves. And that was that whole process of what you were doing that unraveling and and going to Costa Rica and working having really crappy days. That was part of it, you know it had that’s how it had to happen for you. And so what has your grief taught you?
Phoebe Leona 44:12
Grief has taught me a lot. Grief has told me that I can be friends with it. That I can be friends with grief. That you know I it really I’m going to repeat it again what you said I hadn’t really put it in those words before when you said the 30 plus year graver that’s not a bad thing. I think grief really makes us more humble, more compassionate, more empathetic. It really what you were just saying of being on the island with the megaphone it it drops us down that that place where we can really be human and vulnerable with each other. That’s probably you know, I’m speaking but and I’m getting deeper and deeper into it. That’s the word that keeps coming through is vulnerability. allowing myself to be vulnerable with others. And that gives me this deeper connection within myself but with other people that I’m grateful for, I don’t think I would have gotten there. If I hadn’t done all of the hadn’t gone through all this loss.
Victoria Volk 45:14
I have an intuition. And I’m going to ask you if you consider yourself this type of person, but do you consider yourself a highly sensitive person and path person? Okay, yeah. Yeah. Because I get you
Phoebe Leona 45:31
Know, I get Yeah, girl.
Victoria Volk 45:33
Yes. Because that’s, I think this is something else I want to dive deeper into with grief is that it can be especially especially hard for highly sensitive empathic people. Because you definitely tend to isolate, and then you take on, not just you’re trying to, you’re not handling your own stuff, well, but then you also take on everybody else’s stuff. And you have no boundaries. And you don’t know how to make those boundaries. You don’t know, what is a boundary? Because you probably weren’t raised with boundaries, right? So it’s like, it’s you. Literally, I feel like with grief in childhood, especially, it’s almost like you have to learn to walk again. Yeah, you almost have to learn how to fund that. And I often say I raised myself, I still feel like I’m raising myself. But really, whose responsibility is it once we’re an adult to raise us? It’s our own responsibility. My kids are helping raise me in a way they don’t realize, but I’m still raising, you know what I mean? Like I’m growing with my kids, because, as a, as a mother, who is empathic and highly sensitive. With grief. Yeah. Okay, that’s a whole nother podcast episode. I’m gonna write that down.
Phoebe Leona 46:56
I love it. When you were just speaking, I was I had this image that I had earlier this year when I was speaking to one of my teachers. And I think that this will really resonate with you, and probably people out there. So I can’t remember what she asked me. But as we were speaking, we were talking about my inner child. And I had this, I had this vision of my child, my inner child, and of standing in the middle of this ring of fire. And I was like, me as like, present adult Phoebe was just going around, you know, with my back to her to protect her from whatever was outside. And my tea and I was telling my teacher, like, this is what I’m seeing right now. She said, Phoebe just turn inward. And I turned to my inner child, and she just like, jumped into my lap. And, and I was, and I clicked for me, that I was in such protective protection mode of her, she, she’s just still solid, she didn’t see the protection, she just saw back to her. And so when I turned to her and helped her, that was she didn’t need any protection. She just wanted herself to be healthy. And I think that sometimes when we feel like we’re on that island with a megaphone, we’re going through grief, and we’re in this, you know, nobody else gets me. We’re actually not giving it to ourselves to get to turn inward and hold that, that experience of that, whether it was in your childhood or in your adulthood that that child’s the I’m just going to call child’s Yeah, that wounded self just needs to be held and needs to be loved. So that just came through that I needed to share.
Victoria Volk 48:42
No, I’m actually in Grief Recovery. I’m a grief recovery specialist. And through the method, you can apply it to all kinds of relationships and the one I also applied it to my inner child. So that was a really healing experience. For me, it’s all it’s so important to bring attention to who we were before grief. And really start there. And where we want to be, live into who we really are right, throughout your grief experience, what has given you the most joy and hope for the future?
Phoebe Leona 49:21
Oh that’s a good question. What has brought me the most joy and hope for the future? I think you know, what I was just speaking into about my mom, I have really healed and still in the process of healing the mother wound with being with my mother and my grandmother. Because what happened was, I came to realize that they had gone through something similar, different stories but similar grief that they didn’t really get to hold space for for themselves. And I started to you know, have more time with them. And actually the pandemic I moved down here to be a I lived with grandma for five months. And now it’s still in the area close to my mom and my grandmother. So that has been the biggest joy is to heal this, this wound that I didn’t even know that we really needed healing. And what was there was another part, you have the biggest hope. And I think that what I was talking about before with the book, I have realized, again, this realization that what I just have experienced and what I will continue to experience, because I’m still in my emotional recovery and grieving, you know, grieving is that I really, truly can be of service to people, and be able to hold space for them, because I have felt that so deeply before. And I can come from that place of just being in that authentic space for them. And I, and I think that right now, we’re still in that grieving of our old life. Yeah, the pandemic was that space in between, that we’re all collectively in of that old life previous, and that there’s something on the other side, but we still don’t know it yet, because we’re still in the middle of it. And I have hope, because of what I’ve experienced, and what you’ve experienced, of grieving individually, I have hoped for all of us to get to the other side, to get through this grief of the old life. And we’ll be able to find a new life together. And I am hopeful for that. But I’m also hopeful that I get to be a part of, of other people’s paths as well as my own in that process.
Victoria Volk 51:36
I think it’s in the contrast that we learn truly what matters and what’s important to us and what we value and and start there in the building the rebuilding of a life that does bring us joy. Yeah, and it is possible. I do want to ask quickly, too, because you kind of mentioned it. And I think it’s important. And I think it’s another good tip. Maybe in there. And so you had mentioned also briefly about connecting with your father, like you, you’ve had these moments of synchronicities kind of these messages. And I first of all, like I said, we have to kind of be open to those, receive them truly receive them. But what were some of the ways that you found and maybe still do that you do connect with your father and have connected with him. And I think I think that’s another tip that I think needs to be added here in this episode. So would you mind sharing?
Phoebe Leona 52:36
Yeah. And so just to be clear, so you’re asking, you know, what were the things that I came witness of after he passed? And so for people you want to kind of invite for other people to look at for themselves in their bigger picture. Is that correct?
Victoria Volk 52:52
Yeah. Like how, like, okay, so like, deer can cross your path. Yeah, like, Oh, that’s a nice deer. Or, oh, oh, nice, double rainbow. There’s a butterfly, like right on my shoulder, you know, like these things that maybe these animals, right, or, like, I think I just talked about this. Actually, my last episode of the takeaways episode I talked about a streetlight would go out. Middle of the, you know, I’m walking at night and a streetlight would go out, I’d be driving, the streetlight would go out. And that would happen several times. You know, it’s like, it’s like, what did my brain connected me to? Well, yeah, it’s something much. Right. So it’s something if it gets your attention, right? Yeah. Is that the tip here? Maybe I’m just answering my own question.
Phoebe Leona 53:44
Yeah, cuz yeah. Because I was gonna say, could give you very specifics, which, you know, even just today, I had this experience, where I was having this big revelation. I won’t go down that rabbit hole right now. But I was journaling as somebody came in, like one of my friends sent me an Abraham Hicks message and and then all of a sudden, I looked at my window and there was just all these blackbirds just like, massive amount of blackbirds just like flying by my window and landed on my, in my yard. And I was just like, Okay, there’s something here, all of this right now. It’s happening. Now. There’s something here now, I can’t go deeper into it, because I’m still unpacking it. But another example is, right after my father died, a friend’s a friend who actually wasn’t my friend. She was just a student at that time. She came to my class right after he passed away. And she called me to lunch a couple of days later, and she’s like, listen, I know, I don’t know you. But I feel like I need to tell you something. She said, I was in your yoga class, and your dad was in the back of the room, just hanging out. Like I saw him. And she had never, maybe she saw a picture of him on, you know, social media or something. But like, I just know it was him and he did here. Have a lizard. And I was like, What are you talking about? She said he was see he had this lizard sitting on his lap. And I was like, I don’t know, he was not a reptilian man, like, he liked other animals that I’d never remembered could have been, you know, it’s just, it was kind of like, very odd. And she’s like, and she even felt like this is weird, because she would have visions, she wasn’t considered, she didn’t claim to be a medium at the time, but she would just have these visions. And so we both sort of were like, That’s interesting. Fast forward to when I was in Costa Rica. This is one of the messages that I knew I was there for him was on the day that you know, hit that first anniversary of his death. I went in, there are lizards everywhere. But I went to this little fruit daddy guy, which is like a fruit stand. And I was sitting there, and all of a sudden, like, a massive amount of lizards just ran up to me. And I looked at them, and I took a picture. And I sent it to cat. She’s like, that was it. That was the kind of lizard that I saw was like, Oh, my God. So those messages, like you said, they’re everywhere. It could, it’s just something that gets your attention. And it could be really subtle. It could be like what, you know, cat saw my friend cat saw months before and we don’t quite get it. And then it clicks later. It could be like you said, Why do I keep seeing this, like go off, you might not never know. But just to lean into it. That’s the tip, I guess if we’re going to put it in a tip. Just be open to the possibilities of receiving the messages and not know, not necessarily know what they need. Sometimes you may get that confirmation, but sometimes it might just be like university like I gotcha. You know, it might be a big profound development.
Victoria Volk 56:44
Yeah. And it’s okay to ask. It’s okay to ask for these signs, right. That’s sort of Siri talked about. Exactly. Well, I feel like this was a really rich conversation. And is there anything else you would like to share?
Phoebe Leona 56:59
Oh we went a lot of places and some places that I haven’t shared with other people before, in this for this kind of way. So thank you for holding that space, Victorian and letting me feel safe to share. I think that’s really important. When we do dive into topics such as grief, that we do feel, you know, safe to be vulnerable. So I just want to acknowledge you for that. Yeah. And I think we said what we needed to say the day.
Victoria Volk 57:29
And where can people find you and your work?
Phoebe Leona 57:33
Good question. So they can find me at my my website, the Nomadcollective.org We’re actually shifting, donating, but if you have the old one that too, that’s fine, you’ll find me. You can just Google my name to even be on social media. I’m on Facebook and and Instagram. I’m gonna dive more into medium and Insight Timer in the next month or so to share my writing and also my meditations. And then my book will be out. I don’t know when this will go live. But my book will be out. And actually you Did did you said a book title that were actually changed the changing the title, but that’s okay. We’ll get a title. It is called variably. Cloudy with abundant sunshine. And that goes back to that day that I woke up and saw my weather app. abundant sunshine. Nice. Yeah, I forgot to give you that update.
Victoria Volk 58:28
What’s your launch date?
Phoebe Leona 58:29
In January actually, if all goes well, January 8, which is the day that my father passed away?
Victoria Volk 58:35
Well, thank you so much for sharing your story your time and I have no doubts. There’s something in there for someone listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
From my heart to yours, thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend