Child Loss, Educational, Grief Tips, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Resources |
Suppose you have been dealing with mental health issues or been going through an emotionally challenging time lately. In that case, you may have thought about or even been recommended to go to therapy or counseling. If your first reaction is to deny or deflect this thought, you wouldn’t be the first person. Counseling can seem intimidating to some, but this fear often isn’t rational and might hinder your ability to live a healthy future. Here, we’ll examine what you can do to overcome this fear.
Self-Inflicted Stigma
Many of us have an inner voice, and those of us experiencing depression, anxiety, or other mental health issues that can affect our self-esteem might find this voice can be our biggest critic. It can introduce worries about stigma and labels that can be applied to us if we go to counseling or therapy. We might want to think of ourselves well enough not to need it and also judge ourselves for needing that help in the first place. It’s essential to address that these subjective qualities that we attribute on our own (with some help from society) are different from objective facts.
Research Counselors/Therapists
When you’re looking for a therapist or a counselor, you might think that you don’t have much of an idea of what you need, which can introduce a bit of choice paralysis. How do you choose the right one? Some people will get recommendations from a doctor or another trusted individual. Still, you can also research services using the five qualities you should be looking for: qualifications, specialism, listening skills, a passion for helping others, and reliability. You can ease worries about your counseling experience by making sure you’re choosing the right help for you.
Help Doesn’t Have to Be Face-to-Face
Counseling has become much more accessible, thanks to the internet (and as a result of Covid-19). This can, in turn, make it a lot easier to arrange an appointment. Some people can feel a better sense of security when they’re in the comfort of their homes receiving virtual counselling, whether in Canada or the United States. You don’t have to be in an unfamiliar space, nor do you have to worry about the logistics of how you reach your appointment if that would typically be a concern. And, for those that don’t know, I also work with clients online and specifically on the topic of grief. I currently have a program called, Do Grief Differently™️, and in late November, I will launch an online grief recovery group program. If you’d like to keep up to date when registration becomes available, sign up for my newsletter, The Unleashed Letters, below this post.
Afraid to Tell Others
You might want to tell your friends and family about your choice to seek counseling because you want the people important to you to know or because you would like their support, one way or another. Having that conversation alone can be intimidating, but there are scripts that you can follow that can help make it easier to explain your situation. That way, you can ensure you’re effectively putting your side across.
Some trepidation as you go to counseling is to be expected, but many people find that this fades away quickly when they start going. Hopefully, the tips above can help you feel more confident as you make a new choice for yourself and your future.
Child Loss, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Phil Cohen | The Pursuit of Healing After an Ocean of Tears
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
They say it’s unnatural to lose a child. And, there’s no word for a parent who has lost a child other than griever, which somehow doesn’t embody all a parent experiences—much less childless parents.
What is a word for a parent whose only child dies?
As it turns out, there’s maybe only one that might describe that inconsolable feeling – lost.
Phil found himself lost in an ocean of tears after his only son, Perry, 14 1/2 years old, and his friend became victims of a storm that came out of nowhere while fishing on their 19′ fishing boat off the Jupiter inlet in Jupiter, Florida. It was a beautiful summer day that turned treacherous on July 24th, 2015, and it was a day that changed the trajectory of Phil’s life forever, as grief does.
The waves and tides of the ocean are often an analogy used for grief. There is irony in Phil’s story of how he lost his only son, never to be found. However, what Phil did find was his voice, a calling in his pain, and lessons in the heartache along the way.
Phil lives his life as if it were a love letter, continually being written to his beloved and only son. Although it’s a letter, he would rather not be (metaphorically) writing, and he would change that day if he could, knowing that healing is the only thing he can do about it.
Phil has chosen to listen to his son’s voice, which he believes he heard one night while crying alone: “Get up, dad!”
May this episode inspire others, especially if you’ve lost a child, to come to terms with what happened and what you cannot change, and dare to GET UP and do something about it now.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Phil Cohen. He is a keynote TEDx speaker, grief coach and creator of the grief continuum, a framework for helping others grow, flourish and overcome despair by discovering and developing their inner resilience. for over 25 years, Phil has helped global technology startups grow and prosper through developing their sales teams. After experiencing the sudden loss of his son, Phil has found a renewed purpose in helping others to integrate grief into their own lives after experiencing the inevitable traumas, tragedies and transitions in life. Thank you so much for being my guest, Phil.
Phil Cohen 0:44
Yeah. Thank you for having me, Victoria. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Victoria Volk 0:50
So let’s start with you call yourself is your business the grief guy? Is that accurate?
Phil Cohen 0:57
Yes. Does that mean either just Phil Cohen or the grief guy. And you know, the reason why I did that is that I found that the vast majority of people that I’m working with are men. And it’s been my experience through everything that I’ve gone through, that men have no idea or they’re, they’re really not educated on how to grieve properly. So they’ll push it down, they’ll run away from it. And especially those men who have lost a child, as a society, we have a tendency to flock around the mothers, which I totally, totally get. And dad just wants to be strong for his wife and his family. And he really doesn’t get a chance to be heard. So I just named my business to grief guy really just to, in an effort maybe to attract more men?
Victoria Volk 1:46
Do you find that a lot of the work that you’re dealing with these men do you do actually do dig into their childhood experiences with grief and trauma too? Does a lot of that come up? Or is it mostly just current grief experiences that they’re having? They find that.
Phil Cohen 2:02
It always starts sorry to interrupt the dad always starts with the current experience. That’s where the jump off point is, and eventually inevitably gets into other parts of their life. So it’s kind of like, it starts out and grief coach, and then maybe more of like a life and business coach at the same time. That, you know, I found that a lot of men or even some of the women that I work with, they want to do something with what they’ve learned and what they’ve been through. So whether it’s be I get a lot of questions about how did you get your TEDx? What did you do? What processes did you go through the process of writing a book and people ask me, Well, how can I do that? Do I have to Self Publish? How do I start? So it’s not only working through the emotional aspect, it’s also helping them do something with what they’ve learned through their grief.
Victoria Volk 2:53
And when did this this all started because of your own loss and your experience? And so can you take us back into time and share what your loss has been? And the impact it’s had?
Phil Cohen 3:07
Sure. So on July 24 2015, and if you were ever if you’re anywhere on the East Coast, especially Florida, you likely remember the story. My son and his close friend were last seen leaving the Jupiter inlet on a 19 foot fishing boat. There was a really bad storm, one of those storms that South Florida storms that come out of nowhere, that was 40 mile an hour winds, heavy rains. We tried to reach the boys via their cell phones and after an unsuccessful attempts at that the Coast Guard was notified. And I haven’t confirmed this but I was told that it was the most extensive search in the history of the United States Coast Guard that lasted seven excruciating days if if you live I live in California now in San Diego, so on the other coast, and people go miss all the time. You know, paddleboarders people on sailboats. Generally they’ll look for a week I’m sorry, like a day, maybe a half a day, but to be continuing looking for a week and all the assets that were used. You know, it was it was a really long search. Unfortunately, neither of the boys were ever found. And although I’ve been through all of the reports, and there was the Coast Guard report, the FWC see report that’s Florida, wildlife. FBI was involved and we hired private searches as well. I don’t know for sure exactly what happened, but I’m pretty sure they got caught in a storm there. I know that their motor seized and likely flipped over in that storm. Then I’d like to think that they perish quickly, but we don’t know for sure.
Victoria Volk 4:52
Was the boat ever found.
Phil Cohen 4:55
The boat was lost and found three times for good or not. So the boys went missing on a Friday. On Sunday, they found the boat off the coast of Ponce de Leon from Florida, so many, many miles north, a guy who got into the jet stream and started to head north than what the Coast Guard will do is they’ll basically reverse engineer the currents to determine where the boat, you know where the boats started from. So what they said that they did was that they threw in a marker buoy, because they found it with a helicopter. And they couldn’t obviously, I’m sorry, it was initially one of their planes. So they dropped a marker buoy that would basically stay with the boat. But unfortunately, somehow it didn’t. Then several months later, water taxi, spotted the boat, and they went back to go to go get the right equipment to pull the boat in. And then when they when they went back for it, they couldn’t find it. And then about a year and a half later, there was a Norwegian shipping container that eventually found the boat and pulled it up onto onto, onto its, I forgot what you call the platform of that boat. But so we eventually did find the boat. And believe it or not, one of the crazy things about that was the mom my son’s friend’s cell phone, his iPhone was found in a watertight compartment inside the boat. We sent the phone to Apple to get some data off the phone, but any possible data because I really thought okay, now I’m gonna be able to fill in some of the missing pieces of exactly where they were, maybe some of the texts or phone calls that were made. But Apple was never able to retrieve any information off the phone. So, you know, there’s still a lot of missing pieces to it. But the boat was eventually found.
Victoria Volk 6:49
Was it in good condition? Like it was still good condition or just pretty?
Phil Cohen 6:54
No, no, it was very deteriorated. I mean, the the phone was actually in decent condition. But the boat was there was just mainly just a hall, the center console, I basically dropped off, and a lot of the other pieces have basically dropped off. There are there are photos of it. If you Google, Perry Cohen, who’s my son, you’ll you’ll see, you’ll see that pictures of the boat, and the vessel that attempted to pick it up or did pick it up. But it was crazy. The the captain of that boat said that his wife was on there with his wife and his wife said, let’s go out and get some fresh air. And he said, If he didn’t go out at that exact moment, and look in the direction exactly where he looked, he would have never spotted the bow because it had a black hole. So it was almost like, you know, a bow wanted to be found.
Victoria Volk 7:49
Wow. So what was life? Like? In the weeks following? And after and months? What was that? Like?
Phil Cohen 7:58
You know, people asked me that question quite a bit. And it’s, it’s like almost impossible to put into words what that feeling is like, Perry was my only child. So you know, and prior to that, I’d always consider myself blessed. Because I’d never been I still do consider myself blessed. But I’d never lost anybody that I loved. So to all of a sudden lose the most precious person in my life was a real blow to me, I didn’t know what to do, I’d say in terms of feeling. It felt like somebody just scooped out the entire middle of my body. Like there was nothing in the center part of my body, but it still hurt a lot. And you know, there’s there’s no preparation or training or, you know, for something like that. So I really, I had no idea what I was supposed to do. So I just, I just broke down. Really I broke down and stay I stayed hidden for quite some time just in a dark room on the floor crying trying to figure out asking, asking why, why me? Definitely had my, you know, my wrestling with God moment for sure that especially as a Christian going into this, I remember thinking, God, you know, the words that you used, and could have said anything to tell the world how much he loves the US. But the words he chose to use was I love the world so much that I gave my only begotten Son. And yet you took my and so it was definitely shook my faith for a little bit. But I’m so thankful for the foundation of faith that I had in place going into this. Because otherwise, I really don’t know where I would be.
Victoria Volk 9:57
What did healing look like for you?
Phil Cohen 10:01
Healing? Well, you know, like I said, we in our pre interview, I didn’t know, really what I was supposed to do, really, I didn’t know, do I see a therapist? Or what? What kind of therapist? How do I find a good therapist. So I actually Googled how to grieve, because I knew that doing nothing wasn’t going to be the right thing. And I really wasn’t sure what I was supposed to do. And if you google anything around grief, you’re gonna find the five stages of grief. And for me, you know, denial, anger, bargaining depression, when I saw that, it felt like I was doing something wrong, because I had an experienced grief in those stages, or in those ways. So the ultimate healing came from me is from a couple of things, one talking to people, I did go see a therapist. And that was very helpful, both talk therapy and EMDR therapy. But the biggest moment for me was, in one of those moments, when I found myself on the floor curled up in a ball. I saw my son and may people ask me, Did you really see him? I’m not sure. You know, maybe it’s been so similar to yours, but I definitely heard it. And he said, Get up, dad. It’s okay. I’ll see you when you get here. But the way that he said, Get up dad was like, enough already, like you cried, you know, you’ve gone through this, you’ve been doing this for a year and a half. Get up live your life with passion, like you’ve always told me to do. And I’ll see when you get here. And that, at that moment was was a transitional point for me, because I was always focused on myself. You know, I was focused on my own pain, my own shame and worthlessness and guilt. And it wasn’t, it was the moment when I stopped asking myself why me, too, you know, what can I do about this now, that things really began to shift for me? And hearing those words, let it just let me know that my son didn’t want to see me in that state. It’s not the way he’d want me to live my life. So when I talked to people about this, they’ll say, Well, it’s like, he gave you permission. But I feel like, you know, I gave myself permission, he just told me like, just enough already. And when I finally gave myself permission to let go of the worthlessness and the shame and the guilt, I started taking posted notes, and I placed them, you know, my car and my bathroom mirror or my refrigerator, and I’d write things like, I’d give myself permission to heal. And from that moment on, it was a real shift for me, because I started, stopped thinking about myself and started thinking about, Okay, well, what can I do about this now?
Victoria Volk 12:59
Growing up, you said that your son’s that this loss of your son was the first loss that you experienced. So growing up, you didn’t have any losses and grief wasn’t really a topic of conversation in your home?
Phil Cohen 13:14
Yeah, no. So my both my my mom’s parents were gone. Before I was born. My father’s mother was gone before I was born. I did lose my grandfather, but we weren’t very close. So you know, although that was probably my first experience with a direct family member. You know, it wasn’t the extreme amounts of pain that you feel from somebody that you spend every day with, or you see often or a brother or sister. So it’s not that we avoided the discussion, it just it nothing traumatic like that ever happened.
Victoria Volk 13:54
I’m curious if you ever thought because in grief isn’t just about death of a loved one, it can be the loss of a dream, or it really is to the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different and better or more, that can be for relationships with those living, and it can be with your career, or all sorts of things. Did you ever consider or think about, like the loss of not having grandparents really in your life? You said your grandpa was in your life, but you weren’t real close? So I mean, I just think back to my childhood, there’s a picture of me in my classroom. And I it was like Grandparents Day, and I’m looking turning around and on either seat next to me. My classmates both had their grandparent with them. And I was the only kid that didn’t have a grandparent with with them. So did that ever. Was that something that you recognized as a child that you didn’t have your grandparents in your life?
Phil Cohen 14:56
That’s a great question. Yes, you Yes, there definitely were times where I did recognize that I just And don’t get me wrong. I mean, I guess when you when you put it like that I definitely had experienced a lot of grief prior to losing my son. I mean, I’ve lost relationships and, you know, other things that I loved jobs, hopes and dreams, things like that. But none of that. I guess I, I’ve always been fairly resilient, you know, growing up, I just folk say, okay, you know, I’d feel the pain and then immediately ask, Okay, what’s next? What can I do about it? Because if there’s nothing that can be done with the loss of a job, or the loss of a dream, or something like that, you know, then I chose really not to ruminate in it, because a lot of these things like these other decisions, you know, I feel like they do come down to a choice. Yes, we do. We do need to grieve those things and feel the pain. But eventually, we it’s a choice whether we want to live there or not. So, you know, with with everything else prior to losing my son, I felt like I was able to move on fairly quickly. But with my son that was that took me for a big loop, for sure. I’m not sure if I completely answered your question, but I can’t recall ever feeling sad that I didn’t have you know, grandparents, because they’ve always had a lot of friends and a lot of family. So maybe not knowing what I didn’t wasn’t missing, potentially was part of that.
Victoria Volk 16:42
In the work that you do with men, particularly how do you help them discern then if what they’re how they’re approaching their grief is, is resiliency, or if it’s a tendency for not just men, but many of us to be like missed, like, go into the Mr. Fixit role, like I’m gonna fix this, and I’m going to, you know, what, I’m getting a
Phil Cohen 17:11
Yes. And I mean, I think that that’s definitely what you know, as men, we do always go into, you know, what can we do to fix it? And, you know, I, I feel like, yeah, as you said, it’s not just men that do that. The biggest thing is, you know, have they taken the time number one to truly feel the pain, because that’s, that’s one of the biggest things that I feel that most men don’t take the time to do. It’s kind of like holding a beach ball underwater, right? Like, you could do it. And you could do it for a while. But eventually, it’s going to find its way out to the surface. And sometimes the harder we push it down, and the further we push it down, the faster and harder it comes up, you’re not going to avoid it, you’re not going to escape it and you can’t insulate yourself from it, it’s going to have to be addressed at some point. So you know, but most people have a tendency to, to run from it, you know, and there’s a, there’s a, there’s kind of a great metaphor for this, one of my friends was telling me about where he lives in Colorado, near the Rocky Mountains. And I don’t know if you know this, but you know, Colorado is one of the only places where both buffaloes and cows can coexist. And, you know, we all we all have storms right there storms are going to come. But the choice is the choice that we have is, what are we going to do about them? How do we respond to those storms. So and what these two creatures do when this with the storms is quite interesting. Cows, when typically, generally, the storms will come from the West, and head towards these. And cows will when they sense the storm, they will start running east away from the storm. And if you know anything about cows, you know that they’re not very fast. So they want to running with the storm that ultimately maximizing their time, then the pain and the frustration that they have in that store. And I feel like as humans, we often do the same thing, right? We run away from these things that trials, tragedies and transitions as opposed to facing them. Below. buffalos do is quite unique to the animal kingdom. When buffaloes sense the storm coming from the west, they hide behind a ridge and when it rolls over the crest of the mountaintop, they turn and and run through the storm they run at the storm, ultimately minimizing their pain in time and frustration in the storm. And I think it’s just a great metaphor because although we all have storms in our life, it’s just a matter of how what we choose to do when we’re faced with them. And you know, I’m not saying that when a storm comes especially like losing a child, you turn it face it and just run through it. You have to feel that pain And at some point, at some point, you’re you have to make a decision if you want to stay there.
Victoria Volk 20:07
How in that year and you said it was about a year and a half where it was just really difficult and challenging after your son passed? What? How was grief manifesting in your life during that time.
Phil Cohen 20:18
It was a lot of feelings of worthlessness. A lot of feelings of guilt things I wish I could have done differently. Feeling like I wasn’t able to even protect my only son. So you know, what good, am I just tremendous amounts of tears. And because of the fact that everything played out on national news and social media while this search went on, I didn’t really even want to go outside. You know, I wanted to stay inside it. Because I would remember I know, and I recall several times where people were like, pointing and looking at me, and saying, oh, you know, that’s the guy who lost his son at sea. And I remember thinking like, well, what’s a man who lost his son at sea supposed to look like, you know, like, what? Am I supposed to walk around with my head down crying? You know? I didn’t know what to do. I really didn’t. I was completely and utterly lost. Having no idea what my next steps should be.
Victoria Volk 21:28
I can’t imagine it’s, I mean, when we typically have a loss, we don’t have it in the public eye. Right? And so I can’t imagine what that would have felt like to feel like your grief is under scrutiny. Really, you probably felt like, I mean, from what you’ve described, like, you didn’t know, am I doing this wrong? Should I be doing this a different way? Like, it would be very confusing and overwhelming, I’m sure.
Phil Cohen 21:58
I was, and you know, even after even after, you know, hearing those words from my son, I remember thinking, okay, you know, maybe a couple of years, two and a half years later, I, again, didn’t want to post anything on social media. My, I remarried about three years ago, and my, my wife and I took a trip to Italy. And I was, we were enjoying ourselves. But I didn’t even want to post a picture of myself with any type of smile, or showing that I was doing something at a fear of people thinking, like, how could he be having fun? Like, how could he be out living his life, you know, after losing his only child, and just the fear of what other people might think. But, you know, my belief is that we don’t have to stay there, that that is a choice, that is a choice. And I believe that I know, with absolute confidence and conviction that my son would not want me to be in that situation. And I believe that most of the people who’ve lost somebody, the one that they lost would also probably tell them to get up too. So at some point, like I said, it really does become a choice. And then, you know, how do we then take that first step, and then the next and then the next to be able to try to come back to an some semblance of a normal life?
Victoria Volk 23:23
So what did that look like for you processing the guilt? And the shame and the feeling of scrutiny? Like, what did that look like?
Phil Cohen 23:35
What did it look like? You know, a lot of it, a lot of it was internal, you know, a lot of it was my own thoughts. And, and asking myself, you know, is that true? You know, there was, there was nothing that anybody could have done in that moment, you know, other than maybe had locked my son up in a room, you know, which obviously, nobody’s going to do. But so, really, you know, the, the first step for me was a decision to decide, I said, Okay, you know, I don’t want to live my life like this, because if I do, this is not a life worth living, you know, to be just constantly ruminating and thinking about all the things that I could have done differently or ways that maybe I could have stopped it or how maybe some other people made mistakes and things like that. So that was getting me nowhere. So my first my first step was okay, I want to pursue a life of healing. And, and then, you know, to find some way to help other people. And then, you know, I cultivated community, you know, I found people that would support me, and to be there with me and to help me and you can’t go through something like this alone. You can’t you can’t you can’t do it alone. You need somebody there to help you and to pick you up, and not to fix it, just to be there and to listen and to let you cry and to just sit there with you. You know, I did find EMDR therapy helpful, but it didn’t remove all of the pain, you know, wasn’t able to remove and I don’t think the pain will ever fully go away. And, you know, part of like, in the TED, my TED talk I talked about, yes, I did finally reach a point of acceptance and even found some gifts beyond acceptance. But even like, last night, or the night before, my wife and I were watching a movie, I don’t remember the name. It’s with Mark Wahlberg, where his son committed suicide, and he decides to walk across the country, to, you know, talk about bullying. And eventually, I think he gets hit by a truck and he dies. And just going through that watching the movie, I was in tears, I was in tears, because, you know, it makes me sad to kind of go back to some of those moments of losing my son. But all that’s okay. It doesn’t mean that I’m not healing properly or not grieving properly. I think grief is something that, you know, we move back and forth through it’s not, you know, specific actual steps that we go through, even though there are similar stages, I think that we all experience, but there isn’t one route. And I don’t think that there is a place of acceptance, and then we’re done. You know, we always we’re constantly moving back and forth through this forever.
Victoria Volk 26:34
Yeah, it’s an ebb and flow. And I think as we grow and evolve, as does our grief, and in the follow up takeaways and reflections episode, I’ll dig more into that five stages and talk a little bit about that. And so we won’t cover that here. But we did briefly talk about ahead of time, though, that it wasn’t a linear process. And it wasn’t there’s many more stages in quotations than just the five it’s society really has, in pop culture has really driven home, the idea of the five stages, but really, it wasn’t the intention of Elisabeth Kubler Ross’s work and yeah, anyway, that’s for another episode. But I want to ask if your son was in front of you, you had one day with him, he was just in front of you, what what would you want to say to him?
Phil Cohen 27:42
You know, I like to journal. And I would let these free flowing thoughts come up as they did nothing in a particular order, or that it would make sense. And one time, I found myself writing a letter to Perry, I go back, and I visit it often. And I’m not sure that it will ever be done. So I’ve kind of had this conversation in my mind. The first thing I’d want to say is I’m sorry, ma’am. I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to save him as his father, you know, that, to me, that was the most amount of pain is, you know, if, if they were if the boys were lost in a field or somewhere on land, I know, I’d be able to go to where they were and, and walk a grid pattern until I found them. But in the Atlantic Ocean, you know, it was nearly impossible to know where to start. But still, you know, I know that. I know that he must have been thinking or wishing that I was there to be able to save him. And so, you know, I would tell him that I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to save him. I told parents that I loved him so often, to the point where I would say guess what power and you say, Yeah, Dad, I know you love me, you know, so, but I would still I would still tell him how much I love him and how much I wish that I would be able to experience all of the things that a parent should be able to experience with their child, you know, his first girlfriend. His first love getting married, going to school first job, and just being there as a dad to be able to give him the advice that I know that I did get AND and OR I would have wished I would have gotten, you know at his age and years past. How much I miss him. I miss him so much in others. Perry’s Perry’s natural state was one of them. Laughter he’s such a happy kid. And I miss hearing that laugh, his laugh was infectious. And when he gave you a hug, it wasn’t like a weak hug. It was a strong firm hug. And I miss feeling his arms are wrapped around me. I guess you know, things like that.
Victoria Volk 30:28
Make me cry. I’m a mom. I’m a parent and I teenagers and so my heart just goes out to you. Because I’m know that pain probably will never go away that that sadness. Not that empty seats always there. And those milestones are never to be enjoyed. So thank you for sharing about Perry. In that way, have you been back to Florida?
Phil Cohen 31:02
I have several times. I’ve been to the Jupiter inlet. The other the other my son’s close friend, family, they put up a, a monument, a statue out there, of mom and dad are kinda like, I believe they say it’s not supposed to be them. But it looks like them, have them kind of going like this with their hands above their eyes kind of searching out into the sea. There’s no plaque or anything like that. It’s just a memorial to them. You know that when I stand there, you know, I really feel it, because that’s, that’s the last place that they were seeing. There’s video cameras, their boats going in and out of the Jupiter inlet. So that was, you know, the last time they were actually seen alive. And my parents lived there. And they live on the ocean. So I go out there. And I, you know, I talked to Perry every day in the shower in my car. And I remember, in the first like, the first couple of weeks, my my brothers, I have two older brothers among the youngest of three, they were there with me the whole time. And my oldest brother. He’s definitely a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but you know, super positive kind of person. And I remember him saying to me, it’s like, let’s go on the ocean. And this was like, maybe 10 days, so a couple of weeks after the boys went missing. And I remember saying, I remember like almost getting an angry at him. Like how could you know, like, No, I don’t want to. I remember saying to him, I know what you’re trying to do. Like, almost got mad at him for doing that. And I know, I heard in my in my head also like, go ahead, Dad. You know, like, I don’t know, there’s something about I’ve always been this way. Like there’s there’s a there’s a quote, I’m not sure who said it. But it’s it goes. If you can’t, then you must. So if anytime something ever comes up, that brings up a level of fear for me, I do it. Because on the other side of fear is always something powerful. There’s always some kind of gift on the other side of fear. So we went in, I went in the ocean, and I broke down. I mean, I mean, I broke down big time. But there’s healing that comes from that, you know, there’s healing that comes from facing your storms, you know. So, and when I do because my parents are there, I go there and I sit on the beach, and I talked to Barry, even though I know he’s not there. But since I have an idea of where they went missing, you know, you kind of feel like they’re there with you. Like he’s there with me. So yeah, I go back often, and I don’t let anything like that. Get in my way, like things that I want to, you know, I don’t let anything I don’t do or not do anything out of fear. You know, I will let something if it scares me. I feel like it’s something I need to approach and, you know, like giving my TED Talk and and, you know, working with other people and sharing my story right now, you know, this is this is probably like the fourth podcast I’ve ever been on. I still I’m still working my way through it. You know, but I’m here because I want people to hear my story. I want people to know that regardless of what they went through, that they can heal, that healing is attainable. And there are things you can do. But the first thing you have to do is choose because I would say that there’s over the past six and a half years Here’s I’ve had tons of conversations with people who have lost children. And maybe not somebody who’s just lost the children, maybe someone who’s lost a wife, or husband or somebody that’s really close to them, or somebody will connect me with them. And I’d say about 10% of the people I speak to, will say something like, Phil, I don’t care what you have to say, I lost the most precious person in my life. So there’s nothing you could tell me, show me talk to me about my life is over. And I don’t really even want to be here right now. So if that’s the stance that you choose, then you’ll likely never heal until you decide that healing is something that you want to pursue. So, you know, I made that decision. About a year and a half into it. I wish I would have made it earlier. But, you know, I remember, I think it’s, um, I don’t remember her name. It’s on the tip of my tongue. There was a young lady through COVID.
Phil Cohen 36:04
She’s in her husband lost his leg. He was a he was a is a theatre actor. And she was posting, you know, pretty girl, blonde hair. I can’t believe I forgot her name. But she went on the view, or one of these talk shows, and she got scorned, because she was smiling, and she was laughing. And she was, she was having a good time, you know, that people were saying it’s only been a few months, how could you be out there laughing and having a good time? You know, and I think that there’s like this negative taboo thing that like, if something bad happens to you that you have to lock yourself up in a room for years, you know, and that’s, that’s, that’s false. That’s false.
Victoria Volk 36:47
Criticized for that.
Phil Cohen 36:50
What you mean for locking yourself up? Right? It’s true. I’ve lost friends and family members. Because of this. People have said in a film, so it’s just too sad for me to be around you. Which is, like a kind of like a double whammy, right? Like it’s too sad for them. To be around lease
Victoria Volk 37:09
Are very common. Yeah. What you’ve shared, I probably answered the question already. But I was going to ask you, what is your grief taught you and and you’ve kind of shared a lot there. But is there anything specific that you would like to say to that? What,
Phil Cohen 37:26
Yeah yeah. It’s taught me a lot. Actually. You know, I think that you’ve you’ve really, when you go through something like this, you really figure out who you are. When you ask yourself, when you stop asking, why, why me? And you start asking we okay, what can I do about it? Now, I realized that I’m a lot stronger than I thought I was. And I also that there’s nothing at this point in my life, that can happen to me, that was worse than what already happened. It’s no like, I can take on anything, I’ve made it through the worst, what some, many medical professionals would consider the worst possible thing that can happen to a human being it was losing a child, and I don’t want to say made it through, but you know, I’m not living a life of despair. And now, you know, God’s got me on a path to help other people get through that healing. And I just love, there’s nothing more satisfying. So I’ve owned a couple of businesses, I’ve been fairly successful on a professional level. And the money and the success is so much lower on the totem pole, compared to somebody coming up to you or, and saying, Thank you, thank you for spending the time with me, thank you for that thing that you said, or that thing that you shared, because it’s helped me heal. Like, to me, that is the highest level of appreciation, the highest level of a gift for me is to know that, I guess it’s, you know, mid taking this thing, and making some sort of good out of it.
Victoria Volk 39:07
In the work that you do with men now, can you talk a little bit about the grief continuum and what that looks like?
Phil Cohen 39:15
Sure. So, you know, it does touch kind of, you know, a little bit, you know, on the five stages part of it, but, you know, it’s it’s when I had no idea what I was supposed to do. I go actually Googled how to grieve. I didn’t know what I was supposed to do. And, you know, I saw the five stages and I felt like I think I must be doing something wrong, because I didn’t experience grief like that. So, you know, you may start at denial or anger or bargaining or depression, but you also may be somewhere in guilt or worthlessness or revenge. And going through this process, you know, on the other side of acceptance So everything if you think about the continuum, with all the negative things being on the left, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, worthlessness, guilt, shame, all of those things, all those things are all about you. They’re all it’s you focused on you, then it’s only when you start thinking about other people, and how you can help other people or even those being your family, and those other people that who are around you, that things start to shift a little bit. So, it’s mostly it’s mostly, you know, also getting guys to, to take the time to feel the pain, especially like men who have lost children. And I don’t know if we talked about this earlier or during, during our time live, but when men lose a child, generally, as a society, we flock around the mothers, which I totally understand, I totally get. And there’s not a lot of attention, if you go to, I’ve been to several, if you go to a few happened, not that you’ve want to but if you happen to find yourself at a funeral for a child, you will see this played out over and over and over again, how everybody will be flocking around mom, and dad’s kind of off to the side. And it’s been my experience that the last person men want to share their pain and their grief with is their wife, you know, they want to be there support them, you know, they want to be their rock, they want to be, you know, their support system. So a lot of times they don’t get to, to let it all out and to face that the vulnerability, you know, that it takes to make it through feeling that pain. So I work with them on on to helping them to access that because you can’t, you can’t avoid it, you can avoid it and, and I know even you know from from with my my new wife, she over the years, she every time Perry’s birthday repair his birthday or his death day. Or the day that he went missing. You know, I know, she would have say asked me questions like, how do you want to spend this day? You know, what, what she was really asking is, you know, can we do it together? You know, how can I be there with you to support you. And I always in the past, I always went and sat by the ocean and cried my eyes out by myself because I was I was afraid to let her in on some of that, you know, to let her you know, see me really ugly cry. And this this past year would have would have been Perry’s 21st birthday. And I decided to try something new. So we went to a local restaurant, and we toasted Perry and, you know, as as going through that process, of course, you know, I started to break down and then you know, she didn’t say anything, she wasn’t trying to fix it. She wasn’t trying to she did say, you know, we did talk about some of the times where Perry would make me laugh and some of the funny things that he did. And those things are extremely healing, to be able to speak about and let out, especially with somebody who’s loves you, and who wants to be there for you. So to any any man that might be listening to this podcast, if there’s somebody out there that you know, that you lot that loves you and that you trust, and is trying to express an interest in spending one of these days with you. And you’ve been hesitant because you don’t want to let them fully in or you don’t want them to see you ugly cry or you don’t, you don’t really know what you’re supposed to do. Let them in, try something new. Let them in and spend some time with them. And I bet you’ll find it as healing as I did.
Victoria Volk 43:51
One of the myths of grief because so many of us are taught these lessons in childhood that you know, that’s it’s emulated for us because grief isn’t generally talked about as we grow up is to be strong. And in a podcast, many podcast interviews at this point, it comes up frequently. But just yesterday I even brought posed the question like what does it mean to be strong? What’s that even mean? Like what does that look like? There’s no heroism and pretending that you’ve got it put together and that you’re okay. And and really it’s you’re lying to yourself. And that probably does more harm than anything that anyone else, you know, can say to you. Those do harm to mean people say hurtful and harmful things all the time because they don’t know better. They don’t. They haven’t received the knowledge of how to sit with others in their grief. Probably because they haven’t setting their own. So true. Yeah. So I think for men specifically, it was actually two were it was military, we were taught in the military audience, and that’s very much so. You know, the time. Yeah, be tough. And that’s where a lot of men that they have that upbringing of believing need to be tough. Yeah,
Phil Cohen 45:23
I think I think we’ve all been basically I’m, I’m 50 years old. So I know, you know, I feel like it’s changing a little bit now. But, you know, I was basically brainwashed to believe that Real men don’t cry, you know, but the we don’t, we don’t talk to each other about our emotions, or even go and seek therapy, you know, we’re supposed to just tough it out and suck it up. And that is the farthest thing from the truth that that strategy doesn’t work with grief, because you’re never going to be able to outrun the memories, you’re never going to be able to, to, you know, outflank them. So it’s only by sitting in your grief and talking with it, and talking with people and facing it, that you then begin to connect to their memory memories and the reminders, because they’re never going to go away. So I agree with you. And I think that I think I think it takes a lot more strengths, to be vulnerable, and to share your story and to cry in front of people than it does to not because I feel like it was a lot it was, it was a lot easier for me to push people away, and just do it all alone. And so it took me stepping into a discomfort, you know, to talk with people openly and honestly and vulnerably. And I think that more men need to realize that especially through grief that you you can’t deny it, you can’t run away from it. And if you want to truly heal, let people in and talk about it. Because otherwise, it’s just it’s going to come up in some negative way eventually.
Victoria Volk 47:09
How has this because you know, with a family unit, everyone grieves, how has this reshaped your relationships? And I mean, do you talk is grief more openly talked about within the family now? Has that changed? A little bit?
Phil Cohen 47:26
Yeah, you know, but, you know, it was it was me that that made that happen. I’m not saying that, you know, I take credit, it’s that people will avoid it. You know, if my parents my brother’s family, they, they avoid it. And I even notice it, like, you know, in just day to day conversations with those people that know me and know my story. You know, they’ll say, if they’re talking about their child, they’ll kind of change the conversation because they don’t want to make me feel bad or something like that, you know, I’ll say, oh, no, you know, Perry played baseball, do you know, he was left handed, he was a pitcher. And he did this. And he did that. And I openly bring him up in just in conversations I don’t, it’s not something that I want to hide. And I don’t want his memory to be forgotten. You know, and it’s, I look at it as no to, you know, number one, I’m, I’m so thankful and feel blessed for the fact that I was even lucky enough to have a child, you know, I mean, there’s a lot of people out there that that would have trying and trying and can’t even have children. So the fact that I had a child and got to spend 14 and a half amazing years with him, I focus on all of the memories and the good times that we did get to share together because, you know, I do believe that where focus goes energy flows, right. So just like, you know, if you, you stand outside in the sun, you know, that sunshine can cover vast amounts of the earth and you can go outside and you can be stand there and be feel like you’re being wrapped in a warm blanket. Yet, if you take a magnifying glass and you focus in on one specific area, you can start a fire, you know, and I believe that that’s true of our thoughts as well. It’s what we choose to focus on that where the energy goes. And I focus on all of the good things and the good times that I had, as opposed to the why me and why did this happen to me? And why didn’t this person do that? And all of the negative aspects of it, it really, it’s a conscious decision that you have to make. So I some people I can tell you even look surprised like that I’ll bring up his name, you know, in conversation. But why? Why yes, this thing happened. There’s nothing that I can do about that. Like, if there was a way for me to bring him back. I would do it. If there was a way for me to trade places with him in that moment. I would do it. But that’s not possible. You know, there’s I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but there’s that old Chinese tale about the magical mustard seed. Have you ever heard that?
Victoria Volk 49:57
I haven’t, but will you share it?
Phil Cohen 49:59
Here? I will try my best. I don’t have it memorized. But it’s something like this, where there was a woman who lost her only child. And she went to some sage and said, What magical potions or incantations that you have to bring my son back. And he told her that he wanted to encourage go to find a mustard seed from a home that has never known sorrow. So off she went, and she she saw a big match. And she went, she knocked on the door. And she said, she said, I need to get a mustard seed from a seed from a home that is no no sorrow. Is this such a place? And they said, Oh, no, you’re in the wrong place. This family has no sorrow. And she realized that what she went through, she was a she could possibly help these fans, this family. So she stayed with them for a while and help them and then off to the next place that she went, and then the next and the next. And she never found that magical mustard seed, but in her in her aura home that had never known sorrow. But in her travels, she was able to help so many people, she eventually forgot about finding that magical mustard seed. And I feel like I’m on a very similar path. You know, at that I’m finding that I’m put in positions where people have been through something, mostly the loss of a loved one, and through conversations and through walking them through specific, you know, diving into certain areas. That, yeah, I feel like that, that the I’m on a very similar path is that as that woman who was looking for that, that magical mustard seed, you know, that God, the universe, whatever you want to call, it, has me on this path, and has given me the strength to be able to have these conversations and to help other people navigate their own grief. And to me, there is nothing more rewarding than somebody helping somebody through that process. I’m not saying that, you know, everybody I talked to I can get them to the point where they’re happy or something like that. And the fact is, I say this to several people, I don’t I don’t have a master’s degree in psychology. But I have a PhD and experience, you know, and the heart to serve other people. And through that, you know, through my experience, I feel like I’ve been gifted an ability to be able to do that.
Victoria Volk 52:22
That’s wonderful. What is one tip that you would give, I mean, you gave a lot of tips, but is there one tip that you would give someone who’s a parent, specifically who’s lost a child? Today, listening,
Phil Cohen 52:36
Most of the parents that I’ve spoken to have lost a child hold on to very similar things that I was holding on to, which was the guilt and the shame and all the things that they could have done. I think that, for me, everything changed when I gave myself permission to heal. You know, that may be a month that may be six years, I think it’s going to be different for different people. And I believe that their child would likely want them to get up to write, they wouldn’t want them to live in a life of misery and despair. But at some point, you have to give yourself permission to heal. And whether it’s as simple as something as using post it notes or writing something in places where you can see them, allowing yourself to give yourself permission. At some point, you have to make that decision that you want to pursue healing. Because without that, nothing is going to work.
Victoria Volk 53:37
I had a guest recently say you can be a griever and you still can go to Disneyland.
Phil Cohen 53:42
Love that. I love that. Because you’re always going to be a Griever we’re always going, that’s not like I’ve got I can’t say all I’ve gotten through it, or I’ve overcome it. You know, it’s, it’s how you integrate grief into your life, I believe, because it’s not something that if you look at it as something you’re gonna have to overcome or break through, you might be setting yourself up for failure, because you’re, you’re always going to find those memories, you know, and those reminders, they’re going to come up and and when they do take the time to feel though don’t don’t run away from them. That would probably be the other thing that would probably be even a big bigger thing is to don’t avoid the pain. Don’t push it down. Don’t run away from it. There’s times I mean, I have pictures of my son all over the house of pictures of me and him and pictures of just him. I mean, not like all over like where it’s everywhere but in some rooms in the house because I want to see him I want to see his face, you know, and it’s not something that I look at it and it makes me want to break down. But that’s you know, I think it’s also my perception of it. You know, the way that I choose to look at it, but is that to at some point they have You have to take the time to kind of sit in the pain of what happened and recognize what happened. Because that’s where, for me anyway, the true healing came from.
Victoria Volk 55:10
In the first early months or weeks. Did you want to when you realized he’s not coming home? Like he’s gone? Did you want to pack everything up? And do away with it? Like, what? Or did or you know, because sometimes parents will keep everything just as it was. And then there might be parents that just want to pack everything up and have it gone. What was that? For you?
Phil Cohen 55:38
No, yeah, no, I, I didn’t pack everything up in one gone that. Because for me, that would be like, almost like, I don’t know, I don’t want to say you’re wrong. You know, I think I don’t think there’s a wrong way or right way to do this, really, you know, I think people have to do what’s going to what’s going to work for them. But I would never want, I want his memory around, you know, I want the little things, whether it be his baseball glove, or the necklace that he made for me when he was eight years old. I like I like having those things around, you know, because they are reminders of His love, you know, and, and that he was here. So I never, I never felt the need to pack it up and put it away so that I can kind of box up the pain and move it out of my life. I mean, yes, there was a point where, okay, well, you know, I got to clean up his room or take certain things out and move them away. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t because of an effort to try to get away from it. You know, it was more of just like, this, just, this is the right time for me to do that. And for some people, if that’s a month, if that’s what they feel that they have to do, as long as it’s, as long as it’s not coming from a place of avoidance, that’s the biggest piece, I think the point that I want to make is that if you’re trying to box up the things or hide the things away so that you can not see them, because they make it too painful for you. I think you’re kind of missing the point. It’s kind of it’s going through that pain, that where the healing eventually comes from.
Victoria Volk 57:11
There might be people listening who lost somebody that like you don’t have a grave site to go to, particularly where they know that their loved one is right. I believe for me, that would add another layer of grief. That’s why I asked you if you’ve ever been back to juniper. Yeah. What would you write juniper? to Jupiter? What did I say Juniper, juniper. Okay, well, that’s an essential oil. Okay, let me rewind. Okay, what would you say to parents who like you don’t have, like a cemetery or grave site to go to where they know that that’s where their loved one is at? Because I imagine for me, that would be another layer of grief, to experience and go through and, and have to address and that’s why I’d asked you if you had gone to back to Jupiter. What would you say to those parents? And how did you kind of work through that yourself?
Phil Cohen 58:16
That’s a great question. That really is a great question. And that’s something that I I struggled with for a while, but in my heart, whether it’s a graveyard, or a monument, whatever it might be, they’re not there. I mean, yes, their body or their remains may be in the ground, but their spirit is not there. You know, that’s just the container, and I get why it may be important to I always went to the ocean, you know, that was where, and I still do, I still do I go sit, you know, on the coast, because I feel like that was the last place that he was seen. But I feel like it’s more about it, even on a daily basis, you know, I talked to Perry, I don’t feel like I need to go to a specific place. But if the fears if somebody’s struggling with that, you know, there, you don’t necessarily have to build the statue, like I said, the, the parents of the other child when they put the statue there so that they can have someplace to go to, for me, you know, I, I’m in the process of writing a book, I did my TEDx talk. And there’s other things that you can do with your pay, you know, to or what you’ve been through what the lessons that you’ve learned from what you’ve been through, that might serve you just as well, but I don’t know that I have the best answer for that. You know, I wish they were saying I wish I could say, well, you could do this, this or this for me. You know, I was, you know, getting up on stage, you know, at a TEDx event and sharing my story, in an effort to help other people see other people heal, that I felt is was kind of like a way for me to give back. And the book that I’m writing, same thing kind of a way to, you know, to give Back, or, you know, you can do something like what the other parents did, you can build something or put a monument or do something that you feel is what helps you heal. But even if there was an actual physical place for me to go, I likely would go, I likely would go, because but I know that he’s not there. You know, I, so for me, it’s more I feel like the conversations and my, my the way that I honor and respect him is by by sharing his story and sharing his memory. And also now what I’m doing, I’m trying to help other people.
Victoria Volk 1:00:38
Think it circles back to what you’ve said about integrating your grief and integrating the experience into your life and how it’s shaped your life now. And you alluded to it earlier about your faith, I think that plays that’s greatly influences how people respond to their grief, in feeling like they have a spiritual connection in some way to their departed loved one. And, you know, I think that yeah, there’s a lot of influences there, I think, but I was just curious how you in particular, and what you would say to people, if they had that question for you, if they’re a grieving parent, too, because I think if I’m, if I’m wondering, I’m sure someone listening is wondering, and so that’s why I like to ask, and
Phil Cohen 1:01:26
That’s why I feel like my, you know, my TEDx or, and or my book that’s coming out will be sort of my monument, it’s not a place that I need to, you know, and the place that I need to visit, that’s sort of the way that the way I look at it is trying to kind of giving, giving back in a way,
Victoria Volk 1:01:41
Are you finding your book writing therapeutic for you?
Phil Cohen 1:01:44
Very, yeah, very therapeutic. And I mean, and, and, but ultimately, everything, everything that I do like, is really just to help other people. Really, that’s my, my biggest goal is that I just want to give people you know, either an idea or, or a story or something to think about, to let them know that they don’t have to live a life of despair, whether it’s the loss of a child, or the loss of a loved one, and like you said earlier, or they might be a job or a dream, you know, we should all take that time, to grieve and to feel that process. But eventually, at some point, we have to choose, you know, do you want to live there or not?
Victoria Volk 1:02:29
So tell us about your book, when’s it coming out, and where people can find you.
Phil Cohen 1:02:33
I’m, I’m still I’m still in the editing phase, I would like to see it started to come out in the next couple of months. I don’t have a specific date. But I would say sometime, maybe over the next 90 to 120 days, people can visit my website. That’s Phil cohen.com, pH, IL, co H e n.com. And I have a place there where you can book a call with me, I don’t charge I’m not charging you to have a conversation. But I’d love to learn more about what you’ve been through, and maybe any way that I might be able to help you. And if there is, you know, that’s really my main goal through all this is to see if there’s some way that I can help people heal, please reach out and it would be honored to be able to help.
Victoria Volk 1:03:18
Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Phil Cohen 1:03:22
I think you did a pretty good job of asking me all the questions around grief and Healing. And other I can’t really think of anything else.
Victoria Volk 1:03:25
Thank you so much for sharing. I will put all of the links that you mentioned in the shownotes where can people find you on social media? Where is your favorite place to be there?
Phil Cohen 1:03:40
Either on Facebook or LinkedIn are the two places that I’m that I’m active right now.
Victoria Volk 1:03:45
Okay, I will put those in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your story and for being here.
Phil Cohen 1:03:51
Thank you very much Victoria for having me. It’s been a pleasure.
Victoria Volk 1:03:55
And remember, when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love.
Educational, Grief Tips, Growth, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Resources |
If you are struggling with anxiety, depression, grief, or another mental health challenge, it might be appropriate to seek the support of a therapist.
You don’t always have to be going through something to get therapy. There are a plethora of benefits to seeking therapy. However, therapy can allow you to open up about it and speak to someone when you are struggling. Ignoring or repressing your emotions is unhealthy and often leads to unhealthy behaviors. The sooner problem areas are addressed, the sooner one can pivot, make necessary changes, and gain positive momentum.
Seeking therapy will help you in the short term by providing someone to air your problems with while gaining valuable insights and tools to help you manage your emotions and struggles. And usually, but not always, family and those closest to you, aren’t the best options because they are too close; they have “skin in your game.” Meaning, that if you realize that you need to make necessary changes in your life, it is likely those changes may have an impact on friends and family, too. And change, by human nature, isn’t something we’re always comfortable with within our lives. By using discernment in who you choose to be your “heart with ears,” you will likely find yourself more open and honest.
Therapy will also help you in the long run, as issues often persist over time. As you develop tools to deal with your struggles, you will learn how to utilize them in everyday life and properly deal with any other curve balls thrown your way. Information and tools are great, but if you’re not integrating them into your life and taking action, information is just information. A therapist can assist you in maintaining an onward and upward momentum toward the life you desire.
We don’t get to the place in our lives where we finally seek help overnight. Therefore, we can’t expect one session to take away all the pain and hurt. Accountability with a trusted therapist is a wonderful investment in you and your future.
All this to say, therapy can only be as effective as it can be if the therapist possesses the qualities that align with you and make a great therapist. Your therapist needs the qualifications and experience to help you with your struggles and the compassion and listening skills to make you feel comfortable enough to open up. But also important is that they bring comfort to the room and you.
A therapist who is burned out will not be the best match because they are bringing that energy to you and your life, too. And, if they’ve managed to compartmentalize the problems in their own life and aren’t addressing their struggles with therapy themselves (if needed) and self-care, then you’re not receiving the best therapy possible either. This is often not talked about, but I think it’s important. In doing the work I do with grievers, either in a counseling-like session or in energy healing, I have become keenly aware of my mental health, self-care, and the importance of managing my energy. If I’m not tending to my needs first, I am no good to anyone else.
Five Qualities to Look for in a Therapist
Here are some top qualities you should look for if you are looking for a therapist.
#1 Qualifications
You must hire a therapist who has the qualifications to be able to work with you. Therapy deals with sensitive issues, so you want to make sure you are in safe and capable hands. Therapy is supposed to help you, not make you feel worse. Don’t be afraid to ask for your therapist’s qualifications and skills; check that they are a regulatory body member.
As an Advanced Certified Grief Recovery Specialist, I have been trained and certified to work with individuals (and groups) both online and in-person in the area of grief specifically. People are surprised to learn that traditional textbook study programs do not prioritize grief. It’s not studied much at all. So many therapeutic studies, from my understanding, focus on everything but grief. This is great if you are looking for a diagnosis that will end up in a prescription. However, if you are depressed, it’s likely because, as a child, your anger was repressed. And, in grief recovery, you learn how anger is important and a valid emotion that needs to be honored and expressed.
#2 Specialism
If you are struggling with something like drug or alcohol addiction, it can be helpful to find a therapist specializing in this area, for example, Pathways Real Life Recovery. This approach is because a specialist will have skills beyond a typical therapist and invest time and money into learning more about your particular issue. A specialist can help you develop and progress in therapy and tailor the sessions to your needs.
This also applies to grief. If you know that the emotional pain and suffering you’re experiencing is due to grief, that’s where someone like me can offer an evidence-based approach to address it and not with years of talk therapy. Rather, in 8-12 sessions (depending if you choose to work with me one-on-one or in a group), you will have addressed the most painful relationship(s) of your life.
#3 Good Listening Skills
Listening skills are key when it comes to finding a good therapist. When you speak to a friend or family member, you may find that they have something to say or provide unsolicited advice. And, advice, I might add, is based on what they value.
A good therapist will not try to tell you what to do. Instead, they should have been trained to listen to what you have to say carefully and reflect and paraphrase what you have said back to them. They should strive to understand what you are saying, ask you plenty of good questions to deepen their understanding, help you see what you are going through from a different perspective, and help you draw your conclusions. A good therapist can also hear the things you don’t say, connecting the dots that, for most of us, are difficult to see ourselves.
We are so deeply tied to our stories, and by the time we get to the point where we seek therapy, we have likely repeated our story more than a hundred times. Or, perhaps have never spoken it before because there wasn’t anyone with which we felt safe to do so.
A “heart with ears” will never criticize, analyze, or judge. If you feel this way leaving a session, they are not the therapist for you (and probably shouldn’t be practicing).
#4 Passion for Helping Others
The role of a therapist is to help a person struggling with something. Most people will enter the profession because they have a passion for helping others, and this should be obvious during the sessions as they work with you to resolve your issue. You will be able to tell straight away if they lack the passion or enthusiasm to help you, as you will find it difficult to open up to them, you won’t be able to relax, and you will be able to sense it.
When a therapist is burned out, that passion will also dwindle. This is where it’s important to listen to your body’s cues. Your body may tense up. You may make yourself small in your seat rather than opening your shoulders and sitting straight. There might be physical symptoms; headache, upset stomach, and emotional shifts. These body cues may also respond to what is being discussed or fear of discussing difficult topics, too, so it’s important to discern between what is a response to the therapist and the topics of discussion.
It’s best to pay close attention at your initial meeting; before any parts of your story come up and feel into the vibe of the therapist. If you feel a sense of support, comfort, and openness, you may have found a great therapist for you.
#5 Reliable
Therapy is an ongoing thing. It is not something you do once, and you are fixed. This is why it is important to find a reliable therapist. A reliable therapist is an important part of your journey, as you need to be able to work with someone long enough to trust them, and you need to work with someone consistently to make progress on the things you are struggling with. If you work with a therapist who doesn’t feel fulfilled in their work, they may suddenly become disengaged in conversation, be difficult to reach, or lack empathy in their approach, their reliability will show itself.
Finding a good therapist is vital if you want to progress in your life. Follow these top tips to help you find a therapist with the right qualities. And, if you know that grief is holding you back, please reach out to me; I am here to support you – you are not alone.
P.S. I will announce an online group program soon, at this writing (Sept. 2022). If you’d like to be kept “in the know,” you may find it helpful to join my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters. My newsletter is where I share personal aspects of my life, content not shared anywhere else, and business news. If you know you’re ready to move forward and get beyond the emotional pain of grief (due to any of the 40+ losses), click the link to learn more about my one-on-one program, Do Grief Differently™️.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Suicide |
Reid Peterson | Discovering a Legacy with Grief
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Reid is the creator of the Grief Refuge app and supports grievers through publishing daily audio messages that soothe and comfort people pained by grief.
Grief is something Reid grew up knowing well. As a young adult, his biological father, who struggled with alcohol abuse, died by suicide. Fortunately, his stepfather came into his life as a child and was a positive influence.
However, grief would strike hard when his stepfather passed away after a long, eight-year battle with cancer. And, Reid would learn, for the first time, the difference between grief and mourning.
By the time his stepfather had passed away, he had also experienced the loss of friends due to cancer and suicide. However, it was the loss of his stepfather that would be the loss that would shape him to become a helper of grievers and strive to be the best husband he could be.
We often underestimate our impact and influence on other people’s lives. And, as a society, we don’t make a point to articulate to others what they mean to us or the positive influence and impact they have.
Grief cracks us open, but usually after losing someone we love. What if we challenged ourselves to be cracked open by the love we are given here and now? Then, reflect that back to those who give it by sharing, vulnerably, what that love means to us while the other person can hear it.
Let this episode inspire you to share how much the people (and the love and positive influence they have) in your life mean to you.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode. This is your host Victoria Volk of the Unleashed heart. And today, my guest is Reed Peterson. He is the creator of the grief refuge app. He achieved his master’s degree in transpersonal psychology and is certified in deep death and grief studies by the Center for loss and life transition. Read supports Grievers through publishing daily audio messages that soothe and comfort people pained by grief. Thank you so much for being here.
Reid Peterson 0:32
Victoria. Thank you, I always look forward to meaningful conversations about important topics that aren’t spoken enough. So it’s a privilege to be here. And thank you for the work that you do.
Victoria Volk 0:44
Likewise, well, let’s start with grief refuge and how it came to be.
Reid Peterson 0:50
Okay. Well, it starts with thinking about two father figures in my life. And that’s my biological father. And my stepfather. And both of them were very, very active in raising me. My stepfather came into my life when I was three. And so if anything, he was more around to be a father figure than my dad, but my biological father, but the story goes in 2006, my biological father, he ended his life by suicide. And at that time, I went through a process of surprising grief experience where I actually felt a lot of relief. And I was kind of joyed in the experience that my dad’s suffering has ended. My dad was an alcoholic. And he also struggled and suffered through post traumatic stress. And so a lot of my waking memories of my father have to do with like, difficulty. Not feeling like he could express his emotions, me wondering who this stranger was that I called dad. And so I just said, 28 years old, when he died, I kind of had this reaction of like, you SOB you finally did it. And, and just felt sad that I was never going to see him again, but also felt tremendous relief that his suffering had ended. So then fast forward 10 years, I lost my stepfather to cancer. He battled multiple myeloma for eight years. True soldier never complained once throughout the years of, of the tumultuous challenge, to stay alive and try to thrive. And when he died in the spring of 2016, I said to myself, well, Warren is my stepfather’s name, I’m sure gonna miss Warren. But I’ve, I’ve grieved the loss of my dad before. And so I’m good. I kind of know how this process unfolds. But Victoria, I couldn’t have been more wrong. Because I was completely overwhelmed with what felt like tremendous loneliness that I really had a difficult time articulating. And it got to a point where I found myself really isolated. And I said, I gotta get some support from my community members. And so I joined a support group through one of the local hospice organizations. And then I even sought a counselor to process some of my grief. And both were great positive experiences. But at the same time, I recognize that because loneliness had impacted me so deeply, I felt like there was this huge gap in between each session with a grief counselor, or in between, in between each group meeting that happened. So I remember asking myself a lot. What do I do in the in between. And what I remember doing was just kind of like roaming up and down the beaches of where I live, or kind of looking down and it’s hiking up a path into one of the one of the foothills where I live I live in Santa Barbara, so I’m blessed to have the ocean and mountains but and so that I really think that that planted a seed. And then maybe about three years later, after Warren died, I started realizing like I feel a calling growing inside of me to to be more of a support person in the field of grief and grief support. And I just thought of, I kept remembering that question of what about the in between what what happens in the in the day to day when when somebody doesn’t have the space or you know, the support network to communicate with others. And that’s, that’s kind of where the idea for a mobile application started sprouting, and kind of just grew from there.
Victoria Volk 5:25
It’s one thing to lose one father, but then to lose two, right. And that’s an influential variant for launch influential relationship in someone’s life. I had a similar experience, my dad passed away when I was a child, I had a stepfather, and he passed away in my early 20s. And there was no completeness with that relationship. There wasn’t a goodbye, there wasn’t my mom and him and divorced already at that time. And so I relate to that part of your story. And so what was that in between looking like for you? And how was it different with your biological father? And then your stepfather? What? Did you notice anything? I mean, I know you said it seemed, or it seemed heavier, right after your stepfather. But what were you feeling? And what were the things that were happening in your life? And how did they differ?
Reid Peterson 6:21
Well, if I think more about my biological father, as I mentioned, I felt relief. And so looking back, I would attribute that to experiencing like, some joy, you know, joy, that the suffering, my perceived, so bad suffering had ended. And I remember, maybe eight months later, I started to recognize feelings of guilt. Oh, you know, that wasn’t probably such a good thing to feel all those feelings. I remember at my father’s memorial, my siblings, my sister, my brother, and I, we all try facilitated his funeral slash Memorial. And my mom approached me and my mom, my mom, and my dad had such a hard relationship that was kind of like, you know, very passionate and lustful in the hinder youth. But then, like, true hatred for one another, post having three kids together, and my mom said to me, Wow, you really feel you really feel relieved don’t to, you know, she kind of saw the look on the expression on my face. And I, for me, it was at the time, it was like, as somebody who tried my best to understand my dad, because my dad was a very complicated man, very private, very emotional, but so guarded, that he wouldn’t allow himself to express his emotions. I felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulder. And so I said to my mom, yeah, I have really do feel this way, this is authentic for me. And she said, Okay, and then, so, but then, like I said, even months later, so I started to realize, like, hey, wait a minute, maybe what that wasn’t okay. And that was probably more of my type of personality, you know, some of the way my thoughts, you know, factor into my life and how I live my life accordingly. And probably caught up with some kind of paradigm or some limiting belief that like it wasn’t permissible to feel that way. And so I remember acknowledging some of my own guilt, for doing that, and going through a period of like, almost like interpersonal reframing, because I didn’t see constantly and after my dad died, I didn’t really go get support outside of myself, I just more connected with family members, you know, to talk about the loss of our father. And so, within my own experience, I had to do a little bit of reframing and understand like, Well, hey, wait a minute. You said it was authentic weed, so you have to be okay with it actually being authentic. So, that was very different from when Warren died. So when when Warren died, I actually felt more of a longing for him. More of the, like I said earlier, the loneliness and just really feeling deeply saddened by the loss of Warren. And so it didn’t feel was much like about like this inner processing, it felt like these true raw emotions that I didn’t, you know, I couldn’t really relate to even though like, Warren was my mom’s soulmate. They were like, bonded so deeply, for 33 years. And so, I mean, I was really concerned when Warren died, I was like, What is my mom gonna do, but then it just, it just hit me by surprise, because I was like, you know, Warren was such a rock, and so easy to talk to so easy going and like, he just had like, great qualities and a person, you know, like, he’s one of those special people that you truly are going to miss when he can no longer spend time with them anymore. And, and I thought I was, I thought I was okay, you know, I’ve always perceived myself as like grounded, easygoing, myself, and just kind of like, really responsive to what the universe throws at me. And I just was so blown away by like,
Reid Peterson 11:14
How deep of a loss that I felt how much I truly missed him. And actually, you know, his, his 60th Birthday would have happened just a couple days ago at the time of this recording. And he has like, man, do I miss this guy, you know, as communicate with my mom. And she was talking about like, some of the family members getting together to honor him, I think they visited his grave site. And I’m at a distance I’m at a physical distance, so I can’t really hang out with them. And I was just like, gosh, you know, I miss him so much, is just like, so cool to talk to as an adult. So
Victoria Volk 12:07
How would you say that grief was manifesting, though, let’s go a little bit deeper. How was it manifesting for you differently between those two losses?
Reid Peterson 12:18
Well, I guess I would need to ask for clarification on that, because I feel like I have been addressing that, like that. To me, I would respond by saying the same thing. The manifestation would be the feelings of like joy, then relief, then guilt, and then also the sadness. So where are you heading with this, Victoria?
Victoria Volk 12:37
Okay. So, Grief Recovery, we talk about STERBS, short term energy relieving behaviors, things that we resort to in order to feel better, for a short period of time, because we don’t really want to feel what we’re feeling. Even in less than loving relationships or complicated relationships, we can resort to things to help us feel better, whether it be exercise, or alcohol, or shopping, or gambling, or Facebook, or, you know, these behaviors that we resort to, to fill a void. Right? And because you didn’t, what I heard was that and correct me if I’m wrong, but if your dad was a type of person who didn’t express himself, but although you did have Warren as a young child, so I guess, I guess I should start here. Who do you think influenced your capacity to grieve in a healthy way more, a lot like your father, the presence of your father in your life or your stepfather?
Reid Peterson 13:41
Well, I know truthfully, both influence influenced my way to process grief. I’m very grateful to have both experiences. Now, if I think of myself, in social context to others, like in social relationship, I would say Warren, like the loss of Warren helped teach me how to grieve in a social context, because I ended up going to a grief counselor and I ended up going to a grief support group, through the local hospice. And what I was witnessing from other people in the groups was an expression of sadness and longing for their loved one that they wanted, that they lost and that they wanted to be with. And so that I could identify with now, what I experienced when my dad died, I wasn’t able to identify with or relate to from other people because similar to me, I kept it a little bit more private. Now my mom who knows me very well, she was able to see something in that in that authentic expression. My anybody else outside of my family. There wasn’t really much conversation about it, or about grieving or the loss of my dad. Uh, so that was more of a much private matter. So I feel like, I feel like I learned from my dad grieving because I define grieving as internal thoughts and internal feelings. And then from my stepdad, Warren, I learned mourning the outward expression of grief. So it kind of feels like I’ve got the best of will, it’s hard to say the best because grief is painful. I got great lessons, and both losses of my dad and my stepdad.
Victoria Volk 15:34
Well, that’s a great example of, I think, and how you described it just that morning versus that kind of the complexity of that. All the feelings of that other loss of your of your father, would you say that is what grief taught you?
Reid Peterson 15:49
No, because, okay, for me. I can probably think of dozens of things grief has taught me, but at the same time, Victoria, I believe that grief will always keep teaching me. You know, it’s been 16 years since my dad died. And I’m like, wow, there’s still a journey that I can embark on with grieving my dad’s death, because I had such a, such a strong perception of what I label as like negative experiences in his life. But But now, you know, as I grow, and I’m mature, and I evolve, I find myself remembering things about my dad that helped me understand a little bit more of parts of his personality that I didn’t pay attention to when he was still living. And so grief is still teaching me. So it’s a complicated answer to what sounds like a simple question. But I think that grief is grief is going to be with me for the rest of my life. Most people say that it will soften. I believe that too. But at the same time, I’m like, there will be moments where Alan wolfelt, my teacher, he refers to him as grief bursts, you know, these things will come up a wave of grief will hit hard. I don’t know if it’s because of listening to a song or something. But I’ll remember, I actually just went through a really difficult process. Not too long ago, where Warren, my stepfather, he had an identity of being a Harley rider, you know, always had a beard, you know, kind of looked like a gruff guy, but I mean, just a big teddy bear. And mandate, he loved this Harley. And my mom also loved being on the back of his Harley too. So a big part of their life together, you know, when, when they needed to escape from their kids, they went on Harley rides, and things like that. And no one were in died, I actually inherited his Harley. And for about four years, I did my best to continue to honor like his legacy or honor, and respect him in what he meant to me. So when I’d ride that Harley, I felt like I was connecting with the essence of Warren, Warren spirit. And man, did that feel good. But then I realized, like, Okay, I don’t feel safe riding this bike, because I don’t really identify as a big motorcycle rider that much. At the same time, I’m almost getting clipped here and there, because people are texting while they’re driving. And it’s scary. And, you know, no, no offense to any California residents listening to this, but there’s some crazy California drivers just don’t look where they’re going. And so I’m like, Okay, now I’m crushing my safety. Like, I want to continue to live, you know, I want to increase my chances to live as long as possible. So long story short, I talked to my mom about you know, what to do next with a bike. Is there any other family member, any other family member who would like to? I can pass it on to? And unfortunately, the answer was no. And so it got to a point where we made an agreement where it was permissible and okay, to let it go. And I ended up selling it to someone who is very passionate about writing. So I’m really excited that you know, this, this guy’s just going to take great care of it and really enjoy his time with it, because that’s what Warren love. So it’s kind of like this resemblance of like, well, can we honor those wishes, if you will, at least the wishes that we think they would be but Victoria, it was really hard because arguably, that motorcycle was like a family heirloom. And so when it was like go like there was there was some difficulty in saying like, again, you know, I must have a guilty personality type, because that was like, oh, you know, can I feel okay to have let this go? Because right now I don’t I feel kind of guilty that it just didn’t work out for me to continue to write it. But, you know, it went through some process of,
Reid Peterson 20:16
Again, some of my own internal reframing and saying, Hey, Reed, you did the best you could you, you just have to be okay with that. And you have to understand that like, you know that that was a part of Warren’s life that was part of Warren’s identity, and you did your best to see if it could be a part of yours. And you learned that didn’t. And so, you know, time to time to make some choices and some decisions that will help you know, me continue to, to live life moving forward. And so I feel like that ties into what grief has taught me and what grief has continued to teach me too. But I think that there is a lot of hard decisions that everyone faces to throughout their grief process. It’s not just about it’s not just about like, acknowledging the feelings and working through them, I think includes so many life decisions that really impact identity moving forward to.
Victoria Volk 21:15
I think, grief, often, I mean, we start to ask ourselves big, deep questions when we go through a devastating loss. And were there any that came up for you, personally, like personal deep questions that you find yourself asking yourself after Warren passed away?
Reid Peterson 21:38
I appreciate that question. It’s really insightful. Hey, the thing that comes up to me is, like, what kind of legacy am I going to be able to leave in my life, because at the time of Warren’s death, you know, for me, a funeral experience can be so meaningful, because I feel like if I’m not involved in being a part of it, when I observe and be a participant in the funeral, like I really get to understand the person who died kind of their values in life and how they made for lack of a better term, how they made a difference in the lives of others. And so reflecting on Warren’s death, and thinking about it as like, Warren was just a really special family oriented man, we had like, mazing stories of like building a family cabin together. And like, Warren was so gifted, like, as a handyman, like, you know, our the house that I grew up in was like born and my mom’s like, remodel project for like, 35 years, they’re always finding something new to work on and add on to or update of, it’s just like, how do you guys keep coming up with new ideas? Like, your home isn’t, like 10,000 square feet, it’s just a simple Rambler. Like, where do you come up with more things to do? But the I’m sure would and, and so like, when Warren died, I was like, will read like, this is a pivotal moment for you. Because when he died, I was I think, 39. I was like, whoo, what do I look at my life now? And how do I want to be remembered? Or how do I want to what kind of legacy do I want to leave? And so that really opened my eyes to and I felt like, you know, forgive me to sound cliche in saying that, you know, when when there’s a loss, if there’s any gift, in like a grief experience, or having, you know, somebody, losing someone in order to learn something about yourself. That might have been one of the gifts that weren’t gave to me, through our relationship in his passing was like, okay, read, you know, pay attention to that, because very transparently, I’m not a father in this lifetime. And I won’t be and, and it’s like, well, what do I want to do? Because I don’t fully identify as like somebody who’s, like, completely married to the work that I do either. And so it really it really created some space for me to reflect on that and come up with ideas and a vision going forward.
Victoria Volk 24:29
And what is that, if you don’t mind sharing?
Reid Peterson 24:32
Well, part of it is the work that I do. So I am a husband, though and these days, and American culture, a lot of times, relationships if, if their struggle and strife, the answer is to end it. And so I know that I have found a partner that who’s very special and so part of my vision in my life is to be like the best husband that I can possibly be to my wife. And so I’m very committed to that. And very, very grateful for the type of relationship we have and look forward to all the growth opportunities in our lifetime together, whether that’s three more years, 30 more years, or somewhere in the in between, I don’t know. But that comes to mind. And then also, I’ve come to understand that there is a healer inside of me. And so I know that I’ve found my calling, with grief refuge, and integrating modern technology to help support people who, you know, find their grief experience to be very privatized, and personalized. But also, my hope in my vision, Victoria is that sometime in the future, I’m I’m aiming for 10 years or sooner that there is a grief refuge retreat center, somewhere in the pacific northwest of the United States. And then groups of, you know, people grieving, perhaps grieving a similar type of loss, they can come and experience what feels that authentic to them, with their peers, if they know them, or at least strangers who can identify with the type of loss metrics that they’re experiencing?
Victoria Volk 26:30
It sounds very beautiful. I picture it in my mind. Thank you. I had some ideas come to me, I’ll share them after we’re done recording, just some insights that I had when you were talking in the work that you are doing currently. Do you see a lot of men being drawn to what you’re doing right now?
Reid Peterson 26:51
Appreciate the question. And I wish the answer were Yes. But truthfully, when the app is downloaded, and people register on it, I think that 90% or higher, are female. Wow, there’s still I think in our culture, there’s still some work to be done. To help men understand that using their voice, in their grief process is okay, too. I know that traditionally and kind of gender, gender stereotypically men are more doers than talkers. But I firmly believe as a man who identifies as being a doer, Doer to like, for example, a big part of healing in my grieving process involves hiking. Well, that’s an activity that I would label doing. I also think that there can be, you know, vocal communication with doing too. So I once had this idea for the future retreat center of, for men, maybe there’s always a project that could be worked on, you know, and I’m like, Part of that’s honoring Warren. And I’m like, Oh, if you know, it doesn’t have to be men. Of course, it can be anybody who wants to, quote unquote, do or build as part of their grief experience. And so that just came to mind as like a really fun idea. And it really is community oriented. And I think that any agreement person who finds themselves contributing to make something to help be of support to someone else, even if they never meet them, that’s got to be a good feeling.
Victoria Volk 28:33
Do you feel like I mean, what so often happens with Grievers is we find purpose in our pain. And not everybody has to start a business or create something big, bigger than themselves, or what have you. But it can be as small as bringing another Griever into your network and into your community and supporting them. Because we’re all at different places, right? You know, if you, you can get a lot of insight from someone who’s five steps ahead in their grief, not saying there’s like a ladder or there’s a linear path, but the further out that you get. That’s a lot of introspection and reflection time in between. And that’s why I’m saying, I totally agree with you that you grow with your grief. It it changes and it evolves you over time and you grow with it. I can say that as a child Griever YouTube, like, you know, because I imagine that change in relationship at age three, where your father was your biological father was in your life, but was he present? Like, was he really there? Because that’s that changes the influence too. Right? So was he really an act is sorry, if I missed it. What was the active presence in your life? I think you said that actually.
Reid Peterson 29:54
He was yeah he lived five miles away and you know through the delay Go situation with their divorce. He had visitation rights and things like that. So yeah. And but he was also an alcoholic. So was he really present? Right, yet to be together? still yet to be determined?
Victoria Volk 30:17
So often those cycles to repeat and and maybe perhaps to the gift of Warren is that do you feel like he kind of steered you in a different path of one that you may maybe could have taken? Had he not been in your life?
Reid Peterson 30:31
Absolutely, yeah. I deeply respect and deep, deeply respect, Warren’s commitment as a family oriented man, because my biological father wasn’t. And so having that influence, it helped me understand, although that, you know, my wife and I are not going to be parents in this lifetime. Like, we still hold a lot of family values, you know, we’re very actively involved in our siblings lives, and, you know, still, our nuclear families, you know, are still really actively involved in, you know, thank goodness for, you know, FaceTime in technology these days, because we don’t live near any of our family members. But yeah, I give a lot of credit to Warren, and in helping be me helping to be a positive influence in my life in regards to that matter.
Victoria Volk 31:24
I just want to say for anyone listening to if you have the capacity to be that for somebody else, you don’t have to be blood, right? I mean, he just showed you that you can be there for someone who, and have a profound impact on them, like Warren did for you. And they can be your neighbor. They could be the cashier at the grocery store. It could be your postmaster like so I think I just wanted I don’t know why I just felt like sharing that, that if you’re listening to this, and you have the capacity to be a light for someone like Warren was for you follow those nudges? What has what gives you the most hope? I mean, it kind of described it a little bit. But do you want to go a little further on what gives you the most hope for the future?
Reid Peterson 32:14
Well, it’s a great question. If I sit will reflect on it, I think it kind of have two answers personally and professionally, what gives me the most hope is, you know, feeling loved and cared for by my wife. In a personal perspective, I think that oftentimes, even in the work that I do, loneliness is a feeling that is almost a little bit too friendly at times. And so a lot of people have said in Reed’s life, like, Oh, are you depressed? And I’m like, Well, no, it’s just kind of like, a sense of feeling lonely or sense of feeling isolated. And I attribute that to part of it to being a highly sensitive person, I identify with being highly sensitive. And so, you know, for me, feeling that love and being open and receptive to it. I think that that’s one of the challenging things that men for whatever reason, stereotypically, again, I apologize for the hanging of people who don’t identify with the stereotype, but can name it as far as if it’s a vulnerability thing or what but like, sometimes men have a difficult time just accepting and or embracing Warm regards and warm feelings and feelings of love and care towards them. So in my personal life, that gives me tremendous hope. I’m blessed in that regard. Professionally, I think that when, for me, it’s a felt sense, like, because I do facilitate some online groups, and then we’ve got grief refuge app built, when I get positive feedback in any regard, like, I can sometimes see or sense like almost this shift in someone where they are now recognizing that for whatever reason, they’re feeling a little bit more of their own hope. And when I recognize that, or when it feels like a true experience for me, that’s when I recognize me feeling more hopeful, too.
Victoria Volk 34:32
I love that. What is the tip that you would give? Well, let me ask this first. So between the two losses of your biological father in your stepfather, did you have any loss in between?
Reid Peterson 34:44
Yeah, unfortunately lost a lot of friends to suicide and a lot of friends to cancer.
Victoria Volk 34:51
Because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. That’s why I wanted to ask that because by the time you had had the loss of Warren You’d been around the block a few times of grief? And has it ever struck you the similarity then of those losses with suicide and with cancer? And have you found that have you? Is there an element of your app that you’ve incorporated those types of losses into it? Like suicide, particularly, which can be very challenging for people?
Reid Peterson 35:27
No, not yet I, I’ve really tried to focus the app as far as the content shared on the app to be more like kind of like, the psychology of grief management, like in the thoughts and the specific emotions, rather than focusing on type of loss type of loss matters. I don’t discredit it at all. But when I looked at, kind of like all the resources available to people that are grieving, I recognize that so many of them, in fact, a majority or more are focused on type of loss, and says, like, oh, maybe grief refuge can be more unique, and focusing on more just emotional states and your thinking patterns.
Victoria Volk 36:14
Going deeper into that, then having an understanding of that type of loss, losing someone to suicide, and the premise of grief refuge. And what you described was was the in between, right? And what I know about grief is that people who are struggling with suicidal ideation, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that 100% of them have grief or trauma in their life, or both. And so of someone who is having suicidal thoughts, or is feeling really depressive, and is starting to go down that downward spiral, that rabbit hole of having those thoughts, and they come across your app, it is an opportunity, right? Because there is that in between there to have having a grief or trauma event happen to then ending your own life. I don’t know if that’s occurred to you? I don’t know. I just that just came to my mind is that there’s an in between for for those people as well. Is it his grief? What I know about grief that it is grief? People are experiencing?
Reid Peterson 37:24
Yeah, I actually haven’t thought of it that way. But it makes some great sense. And I think that’s really wise of you to say that Victoria.
Victoria Volk 37:32
Well, and I asked you because has it when you think about your biological father and and him taking his own life and how it brought you relief. But have you ever reflected on the grief that he had in his life in between?
Reid Peterson 37:49
Yeah, I’ve spent post his lot, you know, posts his death, I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting on his grief. And, you know, he had a rough, rough life himself. He was physically abused by his dad and stuff like that, learn to drink from his dad too. But I can easily assume and with confidence, say my dad had a lot of grief in his life, he did actually tell me some stories about what happened in Vietnam and some of the things he did. And he, I’m very lucky that he trusted me to say that because I know a lot of veterans do not share stories with anybody. And so, so I did learn that there were many things my dad did in Vietnam that he regretted for the rest of his life. And he even went as far as to tell me that he felt haunted by ghosts of the lives of people he took. And so a lot of trauma, and a lot of grief in his life. And, and so that’s part of my process. You know, when I spend time thinking about my dad now is like, bringing that into a lot of the thoughts of like, Well, my dad was really carrying a lot. And so it kind of makes sense that he was emotionally distant from myself, my sister, my brother, and just couldn’t really be an emotionally supportive father.
Victoria Volk 39:26
I’m glad the conversation went here because I feel like anger is such a deeply rooted emotion and in the experience of your father not being around or being an alcoholic, or you know, it’s really easy to just think about your own pain, and be stuck in your own anger. But I think what this conversation is bringing to light is that, first of all, we all have struggles. And secondly, none of us come with a manual with our parents and or as parents, or children don’t come with manuals. And thirdly, I think it helps to bring some compassion to the pain, not only your own pain, but to the pain of the person who was struggling, who maybe wasn’t capable, who didn’t have the tools and the knowledge and, and have, how to grieve emulated for them. And so this is how cycles continue. And that’s why I was asking you how your grief was manifesting, but you had Warren, then that one decision of your mom to bring Warren into your life changed your life, the trajectory of your life, most likely. And so, so many of our lives, the unfolding of our lives comes down to choice. And my father was in Vietnam, he slept with a knife underneath his mattress, and died at the age of 44 of colon cancer. I know he has had grief. And so I just feel like I think it helps to soothe our grief. If we can look at the person were grieving, or the even less than loving relationship, maybe with just a little bit compassion.
Reid Peterson 41:13
I agree, Victoria.
Victoria Volk 41:16
Is there anything else you would like to share?
Reid Peterson 41:20
Well, you mentioned the thing about choices. And what’s interesting is, sometimes when I go into the story of war, specifically, the loss of Warren, I sometimes say I’ve grieved the loss of two physical deaths of fathers, but also for different types of relationships. And so with my dad, it was the relationship I had, I grieve that, but also the longing for something more emotionally supportive. And then with Warren, I aggrieved the relation type of relationship we had, but as an adult, I look back and I realize, wow, Warren was such a special person, and such an important person in my life, that should I had the opportunity, or I had the opportunity to make choices to open up to him more. And so it’s not regret, I don’t identify as regret, but it’s almost like, Oh, if I were to go back and do it over again, like, I would have, I would have shared more with Warren, about my life. And so I also agreed that too, and, and it’s, it’s really, it’s bittersweet, honestly, for me, because I, I so appreciate what Warren and I had in our relationship together. But at the same time, I’m like, oh, okay, that’s, that’s the thing where, like, there could have been some, just great, great experiences, like even more so than what we already experienced. Had I been had I made the choice to be a little bit more open with him.
Victoria Volk 42:59
That’s good. And I think I, I mean, really, Grief can keep us stuck in our, our shell, right. And, like you said, you’re a highly sensitive person identify the same and so when you think of a turtle, how it just tucks into its shell, or a dog puts its tail between its legs, it’s, you know, grief is very heavy, if you can feel very heavy. And then if you’re highly sensitive, and then just the heaviness of the world, right, it’s really easy to isolate yourself, and but we lose a lot of connection in doing that. And so, I think grief also has a way to crack US Open too, so sure does. So where can people reach you if they’d like to learn more about you your work and the grief refuge app and you have a podcast as well?
Reid Peterson 43:46
That’s true. Yeah. Well, we’re all branded under grief refuge. So the simplest thing to do is just visit grief. refuge.com and go from there.
Victoria Volk 43:55
Okay, I will put the link to the show in the show notes for that. Thank you so much for being my guest and for the work that you’re bringing to the world. And I appreciate you.
Reid Peterson 44:08
Thank you so much, Victoria. Again, I’m grateful for a meaningful conversation.
Victoria Volk 44:13
And remember, when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast, Spirituality, Suicide |
Martika Whylly | Learning How to Grieve with Ease
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
They say it’s unnatural for a parent to outlive and bury a child. Likewise, it’s not natural for a child to bury their parent.
There is no hierarchy of loss. We all grieve at 100%, and there are no half-grievers. Therefore, all losses are felt at 100%, too. So, who’s to say what loss is worse than the next? However, for a moment, put yourself in the shoes of a child who buries a parent. Often, there’s another parent in the wings to comfort and console the child. But that’s not always the case.
Martika’s mother completed suicide when she was 15. And this experience followed a circumstance of abuse in the home at the hands of Martika’s stepfather. So, by the time she experienced the death of her mother, she had plenty of grief she was trying to deal with already.
The loss of her mother would lead Martika down a dark path of suicidal ideation. All the while, her grandparents passed away, and she found her biological father. However, when she found her father, she learned he died two days before.
With the loss of everyone she cared about, though, she did gain a whole family – her biological father’s family. But, as life does, it includes death, and Martika lost another special person in her life, her young cousin, by suicide.
Martika had to learn to surrender, and once she did, she found ways to strengthen her faith and spiritual life and gain a renewed sense of hope. She shares things that helped her along her path and lessons that have helped her to remain present while she longs for the after-party that awaits her when she’ll be united with those she loves once again.
When the dominos of loss fall, perhaps it will help you to know that you can’t kill energy, as Martika shared. You also can’t take from someone who also has. And from Martika’s experience, it is possible to grieve with ease.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Martika Whylly. She is an author podcaster and grief coach, her path to become a grief coach became clear sometime after she wrote the book, having fun with God, a personal journey about death loss, and how she’s handled grief that transcended into peace of mind. Thank you so much for being my guest today, Martika.
Martika Whylly 0:26
Thank you so much, Victoria for having me. It’s an honor.
Victoria Volk 0:28
I know from reading just your information that you shared with me that and as you know, obviously, from your personal experience, and I as well. And for many guests that I’ve had on here, grief usually isn’t just doesn’t come once in our lifetime. And often, by the time we reach adulthood, we’ve maybe had several that we may not even think about, you know, a pet loss for one, in early in childhood is usually often a first loss. So let’s start in your childhood, and the losses that you have experienced along the way and how they’ve shaped you.
Martika Whylly 1:04
Hmm, well, thank you for letting me share. My first loss was when I was 15 years old, and my mom committed suicide, I had no experience with death or loss at that time. So it hit me pretty hard. It was really didn’t want to live anymore, I was quite suicidal. I had a divine experience that prevented me from killing myself. And, but her death kind of had a domino effect. Because her mom, my grandmother took her death pretty hard, I think she might have felt that guilty. You know, because there was, you know, events leading up to her committing suicide, you know, people sometimes do reach out for help. And, you know, if others don’t see it as well, you can get over it, you know, it’s not a big deal and that sort of thing. And then then they lose the third child, even though she was an adult, it was just a bit of a domino effect. Like my Nana, she had an asthma attack. And then, two years after her death, my my grandfather passed away, he just kind of gave up living. So it was like cataracts. And then it was, you know, his kidneys and it was his liver, you know, when once a major organ starts going in, you know, at the age of, you know, in his early 70s, you know, you know, when some of these kind of given up and that’s they want to go right, you cannot try to save people in that aspect. You have to respect okay, that, you know, he would always say, you know, I’ve lived a good long life and, and here’s what I want you to do with the money that you’ll inherit and that sort of thing. And then about two years after my grandfather died, my uncle died in a car accident, he was pretty young, he was 42, which was interesting, because my mom was also 42 When she died. And so after my uncle passing, I realized, you know, I don’t have a lot of family. On my mother’s side. It’s a smaller knit family. So I decided to find my father. My parents divorced when I was young, I was both three years old. And so in search of my father and I knew he had been he was at from the Bahamas. So he’d be in the Bahamas, some somewhere. And it’s a fairly small compared to Canada. So I didn’t think it’d be hard finding him. But it took two months to find him. And when I did, I was informed that he died two days ago. So I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. You know, I thought what, you know, I wondered about God, I’m not religious, but I do believe in spirit. So. But when my father had passed, that’s when I realized I had, excuse me, four older sisters, and they had children. And so it was interesting. I had lost all of these people, it’s family members, but then also gained family members. And you know, sitting with that, because the voice did say, God doesn’t take away without giving back. And I thought, Okay, well that that makes sense. To me. At the time, I was still kind of devastated. But I got to meet all four my sisters and their children. And it was like instant family going from, you know, raised in a small knit family, to having like, several siblings and then their kids and then cousins and you know, just extended family. It was like, Whoa, trying to meet everyone. remember their names? It was it was it was quite, it was quite something it kind of took away from all the grief of the loss that I had. But then again in life, you just you never get away from it. You know, I thought after my my father had died, I wouldn’t have to variants are lost for a while, you know. And then a few years, well, several years after my father died, my cousin Nicky committed suicide. She was 15. And she hung herself, I found her. And that was, again. very traumatic, because, you know, you’re not expecting to find someone hanging there. And even though there were signs of her, you know, threatening to do something I didn’t, I didn’t believe that she would you know, how teenagers could don’t want it to go on or on a runaway and then not coming back, you know, she was very rebellious. And so, yeah, that that took its toll on me, I instead of getting therapy or counseling, I took off to the Bahamas, I just wanted out of Canada, just away from it all.
Martika Whylly 5:54
And learned about, you know, my roots, my my father’s side, since, you know, he wasn’t around, I still have family there. And it wasn’t until I came back from the Bahamas in 2006, actually, that he actually started writing, it was automatic writing, there was, you know, I felt like I was being used, like spirit was using me to write. And with that came the book, having fun with God, and a lot of forgiveness, a lot of healing, a lot of understanding, peace of mind. Like, it was the greatest gift. It was better than, you know, I mean, counselling is good, but at that time, I just wasn’t feeling feeling the need for it. But I thought the writing to be super therapeutic, I did not know that no one told me, Hey, do some writing, you know, even if it’s journaling, you know, writing what you’re grateful for, or just how you feel, even if you’re angry, sometimes my writing wouldn’t be writing, it would just be a bunch of lines that have been very angrily marked on the page, you know, just to get some of that anger out. But it then it led me to helping others with their grief. I took a couple of courses in college, a one was just psychology 101. The other one was personal growth. But we touched on the stages of grief. And then we’re we’re to write about, you know, when we lost someone, and writing something out and reading it out loud to yourself as one thing, but then when you go to class, and you’re asked to stand up in front of the class and read it out loud, well, yeah, emotions, big time. In course, I ran to my seat after I was done. I didn’t want to take any questions. But people were amazed, like, how did you get through all that? And I thought, well, it must have been the grace of God. Because I mean, I was very suicidal. I was very reckless. I look back and I and I think about some of the things that I’ve done. And like, how did I have a look through that, you know, driving in a blizzard up north doing 120 kilometers an hour in the fast lane while everybody’s driving slow? I just didn’t give two flying figurines, you know, I’m like, whatever. If I die, that’s okay. Like I just had a death wish. And I think people around me could see it because when my cousin Nikki died, some of the family friends thought it was me that had committed suicide. Yeah, so I thought okay, so y’all saw that a suicidal didn’t do anything about it. That’s really good to know. But sometimes people think, well, it’s out of our hands or out of my hands, and whatever they’re thinking, I mean, there’s no judgment around it. But now it because I’ve started to thrive after talking to spirit, you know, how can I serve? What what do I know a lot about that experience that I can help others and a voice saying, you know, a lot about death and loss kept coming up. I didn’t want to teach you about death and loss is heavily involved in the music industry. I have recorded a few songs. And you know, music was my life. It made me feel good. It’s, you know, part of the healing process as well. But yeah, I just death and loss kept coming up. And you know, the music industry thing, you know, there was always a brick road at the end of the brick wall at the end of the road. So I kind of threw my hands up in the air and I said, Okay, you know, I’m here to serve you. Your wish is my command. I would say the universe, your wish is my command. So this is yeah. And of course, I’ve started a podcast about a year and a half ago and I speak to other psychologists, mediums, death, doulas caregivers and you know, discussing about ways to help others in their grief into sharing experiences and people that have overcome it, and overcoming meaning they’re no longer in the depths of despair. They’ve taken that grief, and they have flourished from it. And I’m hoping that others that are feeling, you know, like, like they don’t want to live anymore, that there is hope that they too can overcome these, these negative feelings or confused feelings.
Victoria Volk 10:14
Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And it is a lot. And a young life. Your mother died when you were 15. How old were you when you found your cousin Nikki?
Martika Whylly 10:27
I was 33.
Victoria Volk 10:29
Yeah I mean, that’s a lot of loss. And that time, can I circle back to what you said about having a divine experience? Because I’m really curious about that. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Martika Whylly 10:41
Okay. Yeah, sure. Well, I guess it was about maybe a few days away, maybe maybe a week after my mom passed. I was first year of high school. She died about a week before the March Break. So I had that week off school for to grieve. And then then there was the March Break. And I was alone in the apartment. My stepfather was always a way he was, you know, at work or whatnot. And I just felt so empty. I felt like a walking corpse. You know, I didn’t want to be here anymore. I couldn’t imagine living without her. So we tend to sometimes follow people. Like if somebody has hung themselves, while we want to hang on, hang ourselves. My mom, she jumped off a bridge landed in the Provincial Park. And so we lived in a high rise building it was we lived on the 20th floor. And the windows didn’t have screens on them, though we were fighting with the landlord about putting screens in because anyone could just fall out of there. And so I just opened the sliding window, and I stood in the frame and all it would have taken is one step. One step 20 stories I’d be with her. And I took that step and a force of some kind push me back into the living room. And a wave of this knowingness and peace came over me. And a voice said, You’re not meant to follow and therefore must live on. And the feeling that I got from that was, it didn’t matter what I did, there would always be something or someone to stop me from from ending my life. And it’s funny, because in my late 20s, and 30s, I put to the test, I put myself in some dangerous situations to see if that was true. Sounds crazy, but when you’re suicidal, like, you’re no reckless, then you’re willing. I knew physically, I could kill myself. So I just tried other ways. I tried to fend me God. According to Catholic religion, offending God is, you know, you go to Hades for that sort of thing. So I thought, Okay, well, hell, it’s gotta be better than this place. So I would try to offend God through thoughts, deeds and actions. And a was, excuse me, I’m emotional. I’m living in downtown Toronto in my late 20s. And I used to stumble home from the bars at night. And this one evening, I remember, you know, going into my apartment thinking, why am I still here? How come I’m still alive, have not have I not offended you. And then I heard a voice saying, I love you unconditionally, you can never find. And that’s when I knew that this God was truly unconditionally loving. And it didn’t matter what I did. I mean, I could have went out and killed 1000s of people, and I still would have been loved. So I stopped attending, because it wasn’t working. And I just kind of accepted the fate that you know, I’m still here. There’s some reason why I did not know what that was. Because, you know, at that age, I was still kind of figuring things out. And so I just, you know, did a lot of meditating. I started reading Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch, I read book, one, two, and three, several more of his books.
Martika Whylly 14:14
And that just kind of opened my mind a little bit more about our relationship with spirit. And so I just, I just started to, you know, to live more to because who knows when I’m going to go and so I better appreciate what I have. And just, you know, being able to talk to Spirit and not just that, but knowing that my mom is still with me spiritually. She she very much so. And, and I guess I think the more I acknowledge her the less she she sends signs. I know she’s with the two systems sounds quite a bit to the mess with the lights, I guess you could say the flickering of lights, you know, I had to, you know, the ceiling light on and that was flickering on and off. So I tried to adjust it and it would get flickering. And I thought, well, something’s wrong on the circuit board or something. So I turned it off and they put a lamp on well, then that started flickering and, and I and I said to her, I said, Mama, that’s you. Thank you for letting me know you’re here. But that’s freaking me out. So stop, stop doing that. So she did. So she did. Now I have not gone to mediums to talk about, you know, my mom or what she has to say or anything like that. Probably because I, you know, was open. And you know, she would show up and dreams, that sort of thing. But yeah, she’s very much. You know, in my life. She’s, she’s, you know, they could be very influential, our loved ones on the other side. And it just goes to show you that, you know, you can’t kill energy, we’re spiritual beings having a human human experience. And we’re immortal. So anyone says that we’re mortal, and we’re not. You know, we can be easily whatever. Well, that’s the story but Spirit does live on. I’ve had my grandfather show up in the dream. I’ve had my uncle show up in a dream. I’ve had my father show up in dreams. And, and so anytime I see them in dreams, like if I’m feeling this one, one moment, I think it was around the time Nikki died, and I was feeling so sore. While I was just suffering. I’ve never felt such sorrow. I cried myself to sleep. But I don’t remember ever doing that. Well, maybe when I was a kid, and I wanted to stay up late. But this was a real sorrow. And when I was sleeping in the dream, my father was lying next to me. And he had his hand on my, on my waist. And as I was waking up, he was fading away. And I had the most joyful feeling. It was like a one ad like going to bed circle crying myself to sleep, not knowing why I’m here. I can’t kill myself, you know, why did Nikki get to kill herself and I didn’t. I mean, I was really angry with God about a few things. And, and that morning, I was, I mean, I was skipping, like, I was like, Ooh, like, you know, like jubilation. And I remember calling my sister telling her, I said, I saw her dad, and he came to me last night. Because he came to her too. And you know, he would say to her, you know, everything is going to be okay, don’t worry, everything’s alright. Because my sister used to worry quite a bit. And so it’s I find it comforting when they come to us and let us know that they’re okay, and that they’re watching over us and guiding us and helping us. So bad that, that that has helped me, you know, along with, as far as you know, grief, because No, I don’t think anyone wants to stay in that kind of pain forever. But you know, they say in life, no pain, no gain, which is so true, to be happy all the time and content, we wouldn’t grow, if that was the case. So pain really serves as a catalyst for growth. So once I understood that on a deeper level, I’m like, oh, okay, this all makes sense. To help me so that I can help others and you know, just become stronger.
Victoria Volk 18:36
I’ve been taking notes, because there’s so many good things you mentioned. And I want to circle back to and I love how you said first that you can’t kill energy, like, Okay, I’ve never heard that. No one’s ever said that. You’re the first person that’s ever said it in that way, like about our loved ones who have departed, like their energy that resonates with me. I’m a Reiki Master, and I understand energy and things, but I’d never really thought of it in that way. Right? I want to ask you to so what was your relationship with God Spirit, whatever you call it, if you’re listening to this, what was your relationship with that? That knowing right that you experienced after that moment of standing in the window? What was your relationship before that? Like, did you grow up in a faith based home and
Martika Whylly 19:28
Yeah, my mom was very into going to church every Sunday was with Catholic Catholic religion. And I used to talk to God all the time, and I would hear a voice answer me sometimes in this one particular moment, I was the first year of high school this would have been maybe months before my mom passed. Just as I was dozing off to go to sleep. I heard a voice say, what are the primary colors? And I thought about it for a moment I thought, hmm, red, yellow, blue. I thought about green. I thought no green is yellow and blue together, Orange? No, that’s red and yellow together. So I thought Red, Yellow and Blue. And I heard that’s right. And I thought, Well, why are you asking me this question? And I heard nothing. I went to sleep. You know, the next morning, the first class was our class. And the teacher asked, what are their primary colors? You know, I was too shy to answer that question. Even though I knew the answer. No one wanted to answer. We’re so shy with teenagers are so cute and are so shy. Finally, somebody answered, and we’re all like, you know, we all breathe a sigh of relief. But that was kind of our relationship like this. This one would help me out it would. Like my stepfather, for example, was very abusive. Okay, he used to hit us. And I heard a voice say, The next time He comes out, you run to the front door and go down the stairs. And I did. I did when he tried to come after me. Do you know that he stopped
Martika Whylly 21:00
abusing me after that? And so I don’t know whether at that time, I would call it God. I did not know what that voice was. Because according to the Catholic priest at that time, saying, if you’re hearing a voice, then it’s probably the devil tricking you. You had to be ordained, you had to be male. I mean, it wasn’t said straight out like that. But that’s what the feeling you got. So I remember going home from church one time and asking it, are you the devil? I need to know and that I got no answer. So I came off my bed and I was walking into my room and I heard that the devil. And I thought, even if you are, you’re you’re good. You’re you don’t say anything, you know, to me, for me to do anything harmful to anyone. But after my mom died, the relationship I had with God was a little strange. I thought God had a weird sense of humor, because I did pray for God to help my mom get out of the marriage. And she did. She did get out. But it took her life. And I felt very angry. I used to play a song by Depeche Mode called blaspheme blasphemous rumors, and the chorus went, I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumors. But I think that God’s got a sixth sense of humor. And when I die, I could I expect to find him laughing. And I would play that song over and over again. And I’d say, God, this one’s for you. Yeah, and I would dedicate to God every time. And it was just a stranger. And for a while, I just didn’t believe knowledge. And of course, I stopped going to church, because according to Catholic religion, committing suicide is a is a sin and you go to straight to hell, I never believed my mom went to hell, for wanting to get out of a terrible relationship. So I rejected a lot of what was being said, and I was always kind of, some of it didn’t make any any sense to me. You know, for example, you know, apps, abstaining from sex priests are not allowed to have sexual intercourse. And I thought, well, we’re sexual beings. How are they? If there was, if there were pressing that, I mean, I didn’t know anything at you know, 1011 15, whatever years old. But my intuition was saying that would probably breed abnormal sexual behavior. And then, of course, it started to come out in my early 20s movie called The boys of St. Vincent, which was a believe a Canadian man made for TV movie, and it was about men in their 40s coming out, they were Ultra boys, they were molested by the priest. And that did not surprise me. I did not watch the movie because it just I couldn’t. I just couldn’t, you know, just to thought of it just and then I just left the religion after that, because there were too many contradictions. It didn’t make sense. And I didn’t believe that’s how God was. But now I have a better relationship with spirit. I do talk to God all the time. Whether you call it Jah, Allah, Buddha, Allah, it’s the same thing. It’s spirit source energy. And but yeah, I just turned to it all the time for guidance and wisdom because the world is pretty darn crazy. And yeah, I think it’s so important to listen to your intuition which is spirit talking to that feeling that gut feeling that hunch, whatever you want to call it, because anytime I don’t listen to it, I kick myself. Why did I lock the door before I left now somebody’s broken in. You know, I never liked it before but that one morning and so they should lock it? No, no, I never have seen before. And that’s what happened. Now nothing was taken and even if something was taken, spirit would remind me can’t take anything that you can’t take from someone who always hacks and so if somebody takes something from me spirit, what that voice would say you can’t take from someone who always has and they obviously needed it more than you Did so you just kind of let it go?
Victoria Volk 25:02
I love that. What do you think has been the greatest teacher of your grief? And in all of this?
Martika Whylly 25:11
That’s a good question the thing gone that probably we’re all gonna go that we don’t know when though I mean, it’s we assume that when we’re older that we’re going to go before somebody who’s younger. And that’s always not the case. That’s not always the case I could be hit by a bus tomorrow or some kind of freak accident or have a reaction to something I never thought I would you know, but just knowing that we are spiritual beings. And that we we do still live on we’re still creating in the afterlife because I’ve had conversations with people that Oh, once I’m dead, I’m dead. I’m like, Okay, well, you’re gonna be one of those ghosts, people, you know, that just go into the light. That’s where all the fun is. That’s where God is I’ve experienced
Martika Whylly 26:00
The light, more than one occasion. And most people that have experienced it will say they’re not afraid of death. It’s like, the easiest thing to do. You know, it’s like a breath of fresh air when teacher was saying it’s like, you know, loosening up a tight shoe. It’s my experience of it, because I was so you know, really wanting to go home. I didn’t want to be here. And I’d always talk to God, like, why am Come on, you’ve got all these children, you know, you don’t need all of us here. Like, can I not go home and I did have a glimpse of it. I think spirit was like, Okay, well give me a taste test. It was amazing. All I saw was nothing but light. It was like a soft yellow, but it was everywhere. And that’s all I saw. And that’s and I was I had no body, I was formless. I didn’t have to worry about dressing or eating or paying bills, you know, being anywhere at a certain time. It was amazing. I mean, the words, words are so limiting, compared to the experience. And ever since then, to be honest, I was a little bit more suicidal. And I wasn’t sure if God was just having fun with me. Like, let’s see how this one reacts, you know, give her a taste test, you know, kind of peeking at your Christmas presents the night before and getting really all excited about it. It’s really something to look forward to. I know that sounds morbid, but who really wants to live to be 150 You know, when your body starts to you can’t do anything anymore. So you kind of want that. You just want to be able to experience just going home. And the other thing too, and this was from my father’s passing. We all get a homecoming party. My father about two days after he died came to me in a cloud. And he had his arm stretched out as if to embrace me. And of course, at that time, I was still angry with him. So I pushed him away. But then he’s very determined he came back a few days later. And in the dream he was we were in the kitchen, he was leaning against the counter with the sink, and I was leaning against the other counter. It’s an L shaped counter. And I looked behind where the dining room table was. And there was empty dishes. You know, they were filled, there was crumbs, there was a bit of sauce leftover. And then when I looked around the living room, all the furniture had been pushed against the wall. And there were balloons and streamers and empty glasses and bottles. You could tell a party had taken place. And I looked at him. And I realized, you know, he was trying to invite me to his homecoming party. And I said to them, I’m so sorry, Mr. Party because of my anger. And he said that’s okay, you’re here now, you know, you’re you made it to the after party. And I said, Yeah, that’s right. This is out to the party. And And once that once I forgave him, I started feeling hungry said Is there any anything left over he says no, all foods been eaten, but there’s a bit of popcorn in that bowl behind you. And I looked and there was there was a bowl of popcorn there. And I’m not a huge popcorn eater. And so I looked at the popcorn. I thought popcorn for breakfast because it was morning time. And I said What kind of father you are for your daughter popcorn for breakfast and then he went off about this popcorn for breakfast. And he stormed out of the kitchen. He says You’re so stubborn and I said where do you think I get it from in the dream ended? I woke up. Do you believe it? I was like even though we had a little bit of a spat. It was just, you know, when people spat it’s really their way of loving each other. You know, you see the love behind all the bickering and I thought wow, I saw my father again. That was awesome. And I have now experienced that we do have a homecoming party because I’ve heard it before in other readings if you will other programs that the will have conversations of people that have challenged, channeled other spirits saying yes, we get a homecoming party. And so I’m looking forward to mine. I think it’d be awesome. Everyone’s gonna be there and everyone’s invited. Yeah. Yeah, this homecoming party.
Victoria Volk 30:13
So how do you live with that deep desire to go home?
Martika Whylly 30:18
Oh, well, it’s a well, I tried to remind myself to enjoy this moment, enjoy why I’m here and really kind of do what I’m supposed to do here, if that makes any sense. And sometimes I know, and sometimes I don’t know. Because I think when you make a command to the universe, to spirit use me, you have no idea. Like when I first said that use me when I was 23, because I had seen the light I had had a glimpse of it, this book came out having fun with God. And honestly, there was a day that I kind of I was in a trance, mostly writing it. But one one afternoon I said, Okay, wait a minute, why? Why am I writing? Why? Why aren’t I in the studio producing a genre of music? That’s no one’s ever heard of that, that everyone loves, you know, instead of writing. And then that voice said, while you said I could use you, and I and I totally forgotten, because years had passed, I was in my 20s. Now I’m in my 30s when I was writing, or 40s. And I thought, I said to spirit, I said, But you know, we can reach more people through music than we can through words. And I heard nothing. And I thought, okay, so you want to write fine. And so I continued writing. And I’ve been since then keep saying use me use me. So I have no idea what that’s going to look like. When you when you make a command like that. Because life is always listening. Spirit always hears us and answers our prayers, your wish is my command. And so it’s interesting, I have no idea. All I know is that I enjoy doing the podcasting. I enjoy counseling people with their grief, I enjoy, you know, cleaning and helping those who can’t do for themselves. And who knows where the I mean, I have my own desires and my own plans in my head. But spirit has a way of saying forget that. Here’s what we’re going to do instead. So I’m just kind of going with the godly flow, if you will, I do make plans. But then, you know, that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. So I really don’t know, you know, how much longer I have or, I mean, I still have the next book to write. In this book. I do give a sample of the book to come, which I still haven’t written yet. I need to get that done. But I’ve also written children’s books, there’s not a they’re not out yet. You know, everything kind of takes time and money. So but yeah, right now, in this moment? Yeah, I’ve been asking for a lot of guidance and wisdom, because of all the changes that have been going on in the world. And you know, what my role is? How can I help others with their grief?
Victoria Volk 32:59
May I ask? Because I’m just personally curious, how has all of this loss in your life and obviously your deep relationship with spirit or God, how is that translated into? This might seem like a weird question, but I don’t know why I’m asking this honestly. But how has that translated into intimacy and relationships with people? Because I curious about that. Because I think what sometimes, what I wonder, too, is when people have such a really strong faith, right, really strong faith. Sometimes people can say to other Grievers, just pray about it, or, you know, and but praying doesn’t, you know, there’s like, it’s an action, right, you’re taking an action, but you don’t get the answer, right. You don’t necessarily get the answer of what to do next, or and I know, it’s like listening to your intuition. And you had said, like, your intuition is really Spirit coming through you. But how is all of this and that deep relationship with spirit translated to because I, what I think can happen sometimes is that we, we get comfortable. And then it can also become a barrier, or like this wall that we put up to other people for intimacy, right. And I’m not talking like love relationships only, although that’s included, but like deep intimacy, because when you’ve had so much loss you can you know what I mean? Be afraid to let yourself connect with people because of out of fear of losing them, too, right?
Martika Whylly 34:44
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I’ve been through that. I’ve been through that too. I don’t want to get too close to people because of you know, you might lose them. Yeah. So I think I’ve experienced that but then that intuition will be saying to me, well, then you’re never going to have really good really internships if you live like that, that’s not living either. You can’t be afraid that everyone around you is going to die constantly be in constant fear of that. So I just try to enjoy the moment as much as I can to look at the person and before me and say, Wow, this is a unique individual this is there’s no one like this person, this one, this one is God, also this person, whether they realize it or not, they’re their own creators of their own lives. So I take try to take that all into consideration. But that is a good question. Because I did at one point, kind of distanced myself, I was accused of having a wall having walls up, you have a wall up, you know, someone would say I’m like, Yeah, okay. And what’s your point? Obviously, I have it up because of protecting myself from the hurt from the pain. This is what you know, writing has helped me with, you know, kind of letting go of the fear, if you will, of someone close to me dying. You know, I mean, recently, I’ve had my cat dad pass away, and I didn’t think he would die. So soon, I thought Ashley would go before Him because Ashley is older. But when I had three cats, so Tasha and Tasha passed, I thought, Okay, so now I’m down to two. And I thought Ashley would go next and that and you know, we can communicate with our cats. He said, No, I’ll be next. And I ignored it. Because I’m thinking, Oh, he’s talking crazy talk. But yes, he did go now. And he’s come to my come to me my dreams. I commanded him to come. I demanded it. I need to see you. And three times he showed up, so he heard me they can hear us. They can hear us on the other side. Oh, yeah. Big time. Yeah, sometimes I lost my mom, I can’t find my bathing suit. Where’s it in there was like I had a flash in my head of where it was. And that’s where it was. So when you when you realize and it’s just part of growing, it’s for me, it’s it helps ease the pain to know that they’re still with us. They’re not really gone. And to be able to talk to them and talk about them from time to time. I mean, some other people might be uncomfortable, but I’m not uncomfortable talking about my mom or dad. You know, I used to be a joke. You know, when people say, Well, where are your parents? And I would say, Well, they both passed, and I say, Well, Mom, I’m an orphan who wants to adopt me. And just because, you know, people would get really serious and I wasn’t in that mode. It wasn’t in that state of being serious. I was in a state of really enjoying my life and enjoying this moment, you’re gonna ask me about something that, you know, was in the past painful, you know, I sometimes make light of it. And then people just look at me like, maybe I’m insensitive. But again, when other people are thinking isn’t really my main concern. I do sometimes do make light of it, you know. But yeah, it’s just, you know, knowing that they’re still there. Like my father haven’t seen him in a while, but I think pretty sure he thinks Okay, she’s alright, I’m gonna go off and do some of this work. Because I know her mom’s there. You know, which is typical, right? Typical male off doing something else. While mother is always watching over. Yeah,
Victoria Volk 38:14
I know. Like, before we recorded you had mentioned, you know, your cats. And the one passing the two passing now. Right?
Martika Whylly 38:14
Yeah Well, yeah, Tasha passed four years ago, but it’s dash passed a couple months ago. But Ashley looks like she she’s an older cat. She’s got the she kind of shakes a bit. You know, you when she said she thinks and try to get her ballot. So and I don’t know how old she is, say adopted her at the Humane Society. And they, I don’t know if they intentionally lied about her age, they might not have known. So they guessed maybe three months. She’s a small cat. I thought she was still a kitten. But after you know, a few months and having her she went into heat, and I’m thinking I don’t know, if kittens go into heat. And you know, but she was yeah, she was older. She’s still the same size. She hasn’t grown any bigger. So that’s what I realized. Okay, so, and I’ve had her for what 16 going on 17 years now. So she’s, she’s up there. She’s up there. But she’s showing, she’s showing the signs, you know, Gold Age. So I know it’s just a matter of time. Before she goes, I don’t want her to go either. I mean, who no one wants anybody going by that’s really not very realistic, so
Victoria Volk 39:30
Well, and like we’ve talked about, the reason why too, I asked, and I kind of just alluded to, but like relationships with love relationships and how sometimes too, like pets can become this, this barrier to that intimacy in other relationships of because animals don’t talk back, right? They don’t disappoint you. They love unconditionally, you know, so that’s kind of partly why I was going that direction in the conversation Do you have anything to share on that, that you’re open to sharing?
Martika Whylly 40:04
Um, well, yeah, I mean, pets are great in that aspect. But then when you when you’re dealing with people, and I remember reading this in the movie, and the book called the mastery of love that, you know, cats are who they are, you don’t expect them to be like dogs. And that’s how people are, you know, if somebody has a certain personality to think that they’re going to change, do, you know another type of personalities, expecting the cat to be like a dog. So it’s just about accepting people where they’re at in their life, and not try to take what they say to you personally, and I’m still working on that. I mean, I mean, I’m still working progress. So I try not to make anything more than it is, I tried to kind of put myself first more and more, which I know others would say that’s really selfish. But I’ve had way too many teachers that are very advanced, when it comes to spirituality say they all say the same thing. Put yourself first love yourself. First, everything begins from within. And once you get that, and kind of tune out all that, oh, you’re supposed to look after me and do all that kind of stuff. looking out for number one is looking out for number two, because if you can’t, you cannot feel from an empty cup, right? Or pour from them in an empty car. So I find when I’m doing this work, because I’m doing this work, I’ve had a lot of people and strangers even, you know, I’m really grateful for the work you do. And I’m like, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. So I try to make a point to say that to the guests that are on my podcast, who acknowledged there because it’s not easy. It is not easy at all. It’s very, very draining. I find in the evening times after a certain time, I’m not looking at emails, I’m not checking for messages. It’s my time. Evening time is my time. And if you don’t like it, well, I don’t know. Just deal with it. It’s just my time because I don’t want to be a wake up the next day being irritable and bitchy. Because I’ve done that. I was with family. One time I spent a little month I think down in Florida visiting my sister. She’s got all this a lot of family down there. And I remember feeling really irritated, irritable. And I thought I asked myself what’s going on? Why are you irritable? Are you hungry? Do you need more sleep? If that? No. And then the question was, well, when was the last time you spent some me time, either Ah, that’s what it is. I need to spend some quiet time to myself. And once I did that, I was Narrable anymore. You see what I’m saying? It’s the same thing about being selfish and loving yourself first. So we’ve been taught to give, give, give, give, give, and put other people first and then yourself last. And it’s so backwards. There’s a lot of things we do in this society. That is bad words, for example, we should be mourning birth and celebrating death, instead of the other way around. But that’s not going to change. We’re so entrenched in our customs and fuel our beliefs, but it’s true, we should always be celebrating death, although the reason why we mourn is because we’re left behind. Like anytime I talk to God about, well, you know, a mentor of mine just passed not too long ago, and I’ve been still teary eyed about it. But I’m grateful for him. I mean, he has nothing to worry about anymore. You know, he’s doesn’t have to do anything. But you know, the What about the rest of us? Well, who’s gonna guide us and lead us and who’s going to tell us you know, you know, you know what to do or what not to do. And so, yeah, it just again, lights a bit of a fire under my butt to get out there and do what I need to do before because you don’t know when your time is ready? You don’t know. So I try it’s balanced because there are relationships that have been a little bit toxic and like, Okay, do I reach out to that person or a little bit toxic, you know, I don’t want to, you know, Ricochet back into now I’ve got a, you know, heal all over again, that sort of thing. So again, this is where I kind of go within and listen to that inner voice. Okay, what should I do about this situation? You know, how to how to how to handle this or that that sort of thing?
Victoria Volk 44:23
Can you speak to a little bit what you said about morning birth?
Martika Whylly 44:27
Oh, yeah. Well, by that, well, when we come into this physical realm, we’re separated, if you will, from the light separated from that love that all encompassing love. And we’re having to forget we’re in this forgetfulness of who we are. And sometimes you can go through a whole lifetime and not remember who we are not even be awake. So that’s what I mean by the morning and, you know, going through the trials and tribulations that we all go through, like I mean, some about some of the stories I’ve heard from other people are heartbreaking like this one young man who’s lost his, his mother committed suicide. He’s six months years old. So he never had that, you know, bond with his mom and I just My heart went out to I just wanted to give him a hug. And this is what I mean. And then and then when we pass, well, we’re going right back home, we’re going right back to the love. And so it’s a wonderful experience. But we’re not taught that in the society. We’re not taught about it. We’re taught to fear death. And when you when you don’t fear death, really, it changes the game. I’ve had people like in a jokingly way, you know, because I’m short. And I’m little and you know, you get a coworker just messing with you saying we’re going to do about it may stand over you, right. And I’m like, I smile and say, don’t ever underestimate size. And they look at me like, oh my gosh, she’s crazy. She doesn’t have any fear, you know? And, yeah, but it takes it takes that fear away. When fear is gone, then you could live you can really live and you really, really live you know, and life does to seems to be more richer. When you release all that fear of what’s around the corner, you know, when it’s the fear of the unknown, but once you have a sneak peek, it tastes us if you will the other side and see how awesome it is. It never fear death for me, I wanted it more. But now Now, because that’s been years ago, I still look forward to it. But it’s not something I brag about and announce on a daily basis, because then people would start to think I’m suicidal again, which I’m not. I just know that. Well waits for us is some great reward. You know, it’s it’s awesome. And I always imagined my homecoming party. Everyone, everyone. Yeah, it’d be awesome. Like all the fam, you know, everyone that we know, personally, like famous people, you know, they’re all They’re all all of them welcoming us in the pets, the pets or the pets. I think about the pets. Yeah. So and this is my imagination. Of course, I I have no proof of any of this. But just what I’ve experienced. So this is why I look forward to it. But I don’t want to go before my pets because then I’m concerned okay, well, you know, they’re left behind who’s gonna look after them? That sort of thing. So yeah, I stay around for I wouldn’t want to leave them behind, or any unfinished work that I needed to do behind.
Victoria Volk 47:29
The vision that comes to my mind as I was listening to you talking is it just feels like we’re adults in training pants. And we’re all learning how to come back to that self love. And we’re all learning how to embrace the unconditional love that is there waiting for us. And so many of us look to some outside source for that. And yeah, I just think we’re all in these training pants of that’s what life is is to help you to come back to yourself. And yeah, feel whole in that moment. When you do go to the other side. Perhaps Yeah. Do you consider yourself a highly sensitive person? Empath, highly sensitive?
Martika Whylly 48:17
Yeah, I never used to but I remember reading a few articles about you know what it is to be an empath the signs that feelings and I thought yep, that’s yeah, that’s, yeah, I can. I’m very sensitive. I remember calling one of my mom, she’s I have when my mom died. I had inherited five moms. Okay. Two ads. Lady that helped raise me more one of my mom’s best friend and another lady that adopted me when I was 20 years old. And it was 20. I said to her name’s Diane. And I said, Diane, how old are you? She was I’m 31. I said, Well, I’m 20. That’s only 11 years difference, because oh, let me have this. I’ve always wanted a data. You know, she has her Jamaican accent. And it was heard. I can feel her praying for me. It was one evening and I don’t usually call her in the evenings. It’s usually on weekends. But this one evening, I called her and twizzle. I was just praying for you. And I said, I know that’s why I called. And there was silence. I said, you don’t believe me, do you? Because she’s kind of skeptical about that kind of stuff. A lot of people are. And because now I know I believe you and I’m like, okay, it doesn’t matter. But I called because I felt you’re praying for me. And I wanted to thank you. Yeah, so, but yeah.
Victoria Volk 49:30
Do you think you’re a bit of a medium?
Martika Whylly 49:32
You know, I was talking to a lady that is a medium on my podcast, and I expressed an interest in getting to, to take a course on that and to just fine tune it because a lot of people that grieve the first person, they go to the medium, and then maybe they’ll get the counseling or coaching. So but that’s another thing I’m gonna look into is the medium the Because, yeah,
Victoria Volk 50:01
I think that’s a lot of the reason why people do that is just from conversations I’ve had in the work that I’ve done. And my own personal experience is I think there’s this a lot of incomplete feelings. Right. And so we’re looking for some sort of closure. Resolution, not maybe Ness, closure may might not be the right word. But I think it brings comfort to a lot of people who might be skeptical. What’s on the other side? Right? Like, it could be affirming for them, it could actually make people uncomfortable, like that was that was too much, right? I think you just have to be open to receive. And I think if you’re going to a medium, you’re obviously open to receiving something. Right. But yeah, you’re obviously very open. And that’s why you’ve done the things that you’ve done and had, you know, the experiences you’ve had, this is such a rich conversation. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share with my audience?
Martika Whylly 51:07
Well, yes I guess when it comes to death and loss, that you’re not alone. There there lots of resources. There’s Facebook groups, there’s probably maybe groups in the area. I don’t know how things are in the States. I think you’re in the States, and things are opened up, hopefully, because it’s I think it’s best to get together with people so you can get Hugs. Hugs are so therapeutic. Oh, my God, I love hugs. And so but yeah, just asking for the guidance asking for whatever you need, you will get this Ask and you shall receive. It’s so so simple. Like for me, somebody read my book and said to me, Well, you You’re really strong, you’ve got a lot of strength. And after she said that, I thought, Well, where did I get that? And I remember going back to that, and I like I asked for it. I didn’t just ask for it. I demanded it. Oh, yeah, I demanded ultimate. Sometimes I just talked to God, like God’s My servant, give me this. Well, and in a kind way that will just command the strength because I didn’t have strength to carry on. And so I just commanded it. And, and that’s where I got the strength, but you can command anything. Ask for anything.
Victoria Volk 52:20
In Grief Recovery, we talk about? Well, one of the myths of grief is Be strong. And it’s something that, and I’ve asked the question lately on the podcast, like, what does it mean to be strong? Like, what does that really actually mean? Because we can be strong or we can be human? You know, we’re not robots, and to put on a front that I’m fine, and I’m okay. When really inside were a mess, which is okay to write. So I guess what is your answer to that? Like, what does it mean to be strong?
Martika Whylly 52:55
That’s a good question. I think it means acknowledging that you, you aren’t always strong, that, you know, you’re you’re feeling the emotions and allowing the emotions instead of resisting it. You know, if you feel angry, it’s okay, be angry, you know, punch a pillow, go for a walk, I don’t know, do something that will help you relieve that energy, because it’ll affect you physically. You don’t want this ease. Not at this time. But yeah, it’s it just means just allowing yourself to be how you’re feeling. And knowing what you need and knowing also, to what your limitations are. I mean, there, there may be days when you just don’t want to get out of bed. Honor it, honor your feelings, you know, we just honor what it is, whatever it is that you’re feeling, because that is part of the healing. Healing is feeling or feeling is healing. Somebody said that to me once is so true feeling is healing. So for me, that is strength, just knowing what you need and how to honor yourself. And yeah, because some people, they have no clue of how to go about certain things. And but, you know, I do believe our loved ones and spirit are always with us, guiding us whether we realize it or not, we might not see the signs or feel them or sense them, or see them in dreams, but they’re there. They’re there.
Victoria Volk 54:19
So share a little bit where people can connect with you and find your work and work with you. And
Martika Whylly 54:26
Well, they can connect with me via email [email protected] to reach out I also have a website grievewithease.com.
Victoria Volk 54:37
Can they connect with you through your website? You have a contact? Okay,
Martika Whylly 54:40
Yes, I do have contact page on the website. I do have a book called having fun with God. You could either buy it on Amazon get the paperback or you can order get the free ebook on on the website. It’s on the main page and your podcast. Yes, but it was forgotten. Yeah. And I do have a podcast in that’s also everything’s pretty much on the website. They do have all the podcasts you can listen to are on the website as well.
Victoria Volk 55:08
And I will put a link to that in the show notes and also to the couple of the resources you mentioned, as well. Thank you so much for sharing your story Martika and for being my guest today.
Martika Whylly 55:20
Well, thank you for having me. Thank you so much.
Victoria Volk 55:22
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections | Finding Our Way Home to Self
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Finding our way home to self is the journey we’re all on in the physical plain. So that hopefully, when our time is drawing near, we will have experienced a life well-lived. A life filled with joy and more importantly, one of peace.
In this week’s episode, I share a bit about my journey finding my way home back to myself. And also discuss the stories of the three previous guests and a snippet of how they have been journeying home to themselves.
I don’t know that we ever fully “arrive” at feeling completely healed. There’s always more to discover. There’s always something that rubs us wrong that others do or say, which start to have less and less affect on us as we connect more deeply to ourselves.
Additionally, there’s always going to be grief and loss that will likely, for a time, send us in a tailspin. We have to learn to recalibrate and get back on track again. How we do that will vary from person to person. And, the why behind doing so is often the first step in doing anything about our current emotional condition.
In doing nothing, there is much to lose – even if you don’t feel like there is.
We are all a piece in someone else’s puzzle.
______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
💛 Would you like to Learn Your Energy Type? Free Quiz ➡️ HERE! ⬅️
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Make Yourself a Priority
I believe we all have a divine higher consciousness self. It’s more than our intuition. It’s our spirit that yearns to be nurtured and listened to. It’s also important that as energy workers or therapists of all levels, we take time to step away from our practices, and daily obligations, and do something that fills our cups, lights us up, and provides an opportunity to experience an upgrade or up-leveling of our own consciousness, helpers need help and support to. So if this is you, make yourself a priority even for a day, everyone you serve or nurture will be better for it, including you. And this is also true for caregivers of any kind.
Recently, I was seated next to someone who reminded me of myself when I was in my 20s and 30s. As far as where I was in my life and how I was feeling. As this person shared about themselves, I was reminded of all of the things I found along my path of healing, that had been stepping stones to the next thing. But you know, I wouldn’t have known how helpful and healing those things were. Had I not followed my intuition when I was led to those things, gave them a shot.
The Work that I love to do is My Destiny
Early on in my personal development, which is really a lifetime exercise. If you think about it. I felt like there was something wrong with me, and that I was destined to feel like I was going out of my mind for the rest of my life. What I ended up discovering by following the breadcrumbs was that I needed to allow myself time to learn and the space to integrate what I was learning, which is really where the magic happens.
I also learned that I needed support and that no amount of time sitting alone on my couch, pondering my thoughts, when actually do anything to move the needle forward toward emotional wellness. Emotions have been both a blessing and a curse in my life. I feel deeply my own stuff, but I also feel the emotional energy of others too.
Webster’s Dictionary defines an empath as one who experiences the emotions of others, a person who has empathy for others.
Empathy – is the action of understanding, being aware of being sensitive to and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experiences of another in either the past or present, without having the feelings, thoughts, and experiences fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner.
Empathy happens to be my number one strength, confirmed through the YOUMAP assessment, which is perfect for my practice as an energy worker through Reiki and biofield tuning and as a grief specialist working with grievers. Add in that I’m an INFP personality type via the Myers-Briggs assessment and Pisces. And I’ve come to accept that the work I love to do was also probably my destiny.
My childhood built me just as your childhood built you. No matter what you’ve experienced, who you were, as a child is staring back at you today as an adult. There are bits of us that we can’t ever erase or change. We can’t go back in time and there are no do-overs. However, we can transmute those experiences and the energy those experiences hold by allowing them to move through us. So that reflection staring back at us feels more familiar. Feels more like home.
Peace as a Goal
I have 3 guests on my podcast the episodes that were just recently released, which are Stephanie Cerins, Kyira Wackett, and Ram Dass they all have found their way back home, to a sense of self that feels more whole, joyful, and peaceful. And for me, feeling peace has been my goal for as long as I can remember. To me, peace is the opposite of feeling as though something is wrong with me. And I’m destined for lifelong suffering. There’s an exhale I feel and just speaking the word peace out loud. The word itself feels soothing, doesn’t it? Isn’t it funny? How Our goals are never to be the angriest, most ashamed, saddest, or most bitter person on the block.
And yet, that’s the baseline for so many of us in our day-to-day lives. It may not be outwardly and outright expressed, but it’s there, whether in thought, action, or deed, and either towards ourselves or others.
What if peace became the goal and the baseline? Whew, that sounds like a home, city block, community, state, nation, and the world transformed to me, about to you? Well, guess what? A transformed world starts with each and every one of us. Just think about all the people you interact with on a daily basis. The postal worker, delivery person, co-workers, boss, neighbor, friend, spouse, children, bus driver, we all see a lot of people regularly. And we can either bring our feelings of anger, shame, sadness, bitterness, or any other emotion that is disrupting our ability to be kind to ourselves and others. Or we can bring the child in us who is curious, craves connection, and doesn’t judge.
Emotional Wellness
Sitting through the pain and suffering with support of others in a way that feels aligned for you, is the best approach to emotional wellness. There is a lot to be said and being able to sit with yourself and contemplation and reflection. However, it is often through prompting questions that the biggest aha is or experienced. Because we are so close to our own stories. Those better questions often do not occur to us naturally, because we have our ego, with all of its judgment and internal storytelling also in the mix.
On my recently released episode with Stephanie, her stepping stone to healing was Alcoholics Anonymous, but that’s not where she stayed. She continued to follow the breadcrumbs which led her to write specifically curated affirmations for clients, and later author two books. I have another guest on my podcast who is Kyira, her stepping stone was therapy for an eating disorder that developed in college and lasted for eight years. However, because of excellence became a huge driver for her, in part because of her childhood experiences. Becoming the therapist she wanted became another driver. Today she assists clients from lived experience, but more importantly from a state of peace within herself that never would have happened had she continued to carry shame and guilt. Finally, Ram Dass stepping stone was therapy in conjunction with a self paced online program for assisting him in processing as emotions. I believe men in particular are often left to the side.
When as a parent, there is a death of a child. The man should be the man the stoic pillar of strength. People often rushed to the side of the mother to console and offer condolences. And I imagine for any father that can feel like dismissal, and additionally, are certain expectations of how a father should respond to a child’s death aren’t far from people’s minds.
In truth for all people, emotions unexpressed causes to either implode or explode, resulting in dis-ease, further loss, more grief, and additional unnecessary suffering.
Finding our way home to self is the journey we’re all on in the physical plane. So that hopefully when our time is drawing near, we will have experienced a life well lived a life filled with joy in more importantly one of peace.
P.S. If you’re interested in learning more about the services I mentioned like Reiki and Biofield Tuning and YOUMAP be sure to check my website www.theuleashedheart.com. Or if your curiosity has been piqued and you want to listen to Stephanie, Kyira, and Ram Dass episodes you can visit my wesbite and go the Podcast Page Grieving Voice Podcast, you can see there all of my podcast published episodes.
Child Loss, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Ep 113 Ram Dass Learning How to Write a New Song with Grief
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Ram Dass Khalsa is a singer-songwriter who, through the loss of his newborn son to Trisomy-18, learned how to write a new song as he learned how to grieve healthily.
It would take Ram Dass several years to learn what it means to grieve healthily, and growing up with “yogi” parents, taught him the importance of being in his body. However, he never learned how to be with his feelings.
Ram Dass and his partner knew they were expecting challenges ahead. At twenty weeks pregnant, they learned their baby boy would not thrive very long once he was born. Going against the recommendation of abortion, they felt it was important that they go through the process of his birth and his death.
They weren’t expecting their son to live a full day. Instead, they got to experience his life for three. After his death, everyone had their individual grief experiences, and it became emotionally too much for Ram Dass and his partner, and ultimately, they parted ways.
And thus, a new chapter of Ram Dass’s life and music began.
Even when we expect a loss to occur, there are no words or actions that can fully prepare a heart to say goodbye to another. The finality of death isn’t felt until the moment it happens. And for some, including Ram Dass, grief and loss become a pivotal experience that changes one’s life — for the better.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
💛 Would you like to Learn Your Energy Type? Free Quiz ➡️ HERE! ⬅️
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is rom das Khalsa, known professionally as rom das creates music that is spiritually and emotionally restorative. His music opens the heart and stirs the soul. As a producer, multi instrumentalist, and songwriter. He inspires a unique potency through collaboration and improvisation that creates art greater than the sum of its parts. His constant dedication to render the beauty of human experience triumph, tragedy and beyond has led him to the world stage. He performed at the 2019 Grammy Awards, has played at Carnegie Hall, and continues to perform at venues around the world every year, ROM Das is at the forefront of a movement of musicians aiming to bring healing and solace to the world. In 2021, he recorded and produced a series of musical projects born from his own deeply personal human experience of joy and sorrow, collaborating with the duo, while ray to create the EP, and now he has wings a musical journey through his recovery and healing after the death of his newborn son. born into a family of professional musicians rom Das was raised to appreciate all musical genres and find the unique nuances of every song and composition he heard. He developed a near encyclopedic knowledge of wide swaths of the musical landscape, which he calls upon to create novel and moving approaches to music production and songwriting. Thank you so much for being my guest.
Ram Dass 1:32
Thanks for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:33
I listened to some of the new album, and now he has wings. And I just imagined myself, I would consider myself an old soul. Even as a young child and teenager. I pictured myself as those listening, especially my favorite was, Elegy for a yellow bird. Oh, cool. And I found myself listening. And thinking of myself, picturing myself laying on my lip laying on my bedroom floor, staring at the ceiling, and it’s a rainy day. Like, that’s kind of the feeling that it brought for me. And it’s, I would say, Your music is easy listening. Like it’s, it’s something that you can put on in the background, but it’s something that you can really just lay on your floor and stare at the ceiling and just let it move you. And so I appreciate that was my favorite, just wanted to share that.
Ram Dass 2:26
That makes me so happy to hear. And I I really appreciate the the feelings that you get when you’re listening to it. I mean, the the most important thing for me is that one you can put it on at any time, if you want to listen to it actively. There’s so much subtlety in it. But you can also put it on in the background and it doesn’t get distracting. And that’s really cool. So I guess it redefines what easy listening is rather than being sort of cheesy elevator music, it’s this idea that it really, it’s easy to listen to, and it’s easy to listen to for a reason. But also that it evokes some sort of feeling for you. That’s, that’s my goal.
Victoria Volk 3:06
Yeah. And can you explain just a little bit because I’m curious. So the cover art is like this yellow bird, right? So can you just kind of my own curiosity, tie the title of that song and that cover art together? Yeah,
Ram Dass 3:22
Yeah so the whole EP is about my journey, through finding out that my son had a fatal genetic condition called Trisomy 18. And then, his birth, his passing and recovery after that, after he passed, my partner and I, my wife and I, at the time, found a little baby Yellow Bird on the ground that could not fly. And we saw its mom in a tree nearby, and we took it upon ourselves to help it not get eaten, to recover and get back to its family. That song to me is is sort of like the feeling is is about trying to be able to help something when you haven’t been able to before. I mean, there was nothing we could do to help my son live, it was just the reality was the reality and he wasn’t going to survive. But then the care that loss brings to other things, the the wanting to help, both from a genuine place and also a genuine like, just wanting to help because it’s meaningful, because life is meaningful. But also the reality that part of that comes from a certain sense of desperation, because I couldn’t do anything about my son. So there’s like this hope and grief in it all the same time. So rainy day is kind of perfect.
Victoria Volk 4:56
Yeah, I guess and I think it just what You describe is like this compassion with wanting a place to go, like compat like to share that love with nowhere to go?
Ram Dass 5:10
Yeah, death and loss changes the fabric of how one relates to the outside world, for better or for worse for me. Ultimately, it’s been for the better. But not without a whole lot of grief and trauma along the way, too. So yeah, I agree,
Victoria Volk 5:31
Can you speak to what has been the most what was because I get a sense that you feel like you’re on the other side of it.
Ram Dass 5:40
Yeah, if there is another side, my life is totally different now than how it was, during that process, both my partner at the time and I have, you know, we separated and we have new relationships. And so we’re no longer together in that way. But we’re still very much family. And I think I went through quite a rebirth process of my own, trying to figure out what really is important to me. And the immediacy, the the PTSD aspects of my son’s passing, are no longer so immediate, I can still have moments where it comes up, where all wake up one day, and today is a perfect example, because we’re getting, um, we’re almost exactly a month right now from the anniversary of his passing and birth, both. And I remember the air being this way, you know, in the days before he was born. So it’s it’s bittersweet, but it doesn’t bring in the same adrenaline, the same fight or flight, the same need to try to change my feelings. And that’s maybe the biggest thing is that I’ve learned quite a bit about how to be with my feelings, how to have my feelings in real time. And that has been maybe the biggest thing in helping me cope and thrive in my life, rather than trying to avoid having hard feelings.
Victoria Volk 7:18
Did you have support? And how to do that? Or was it just you found naturally your own way? And what does that look like? Or what did that look like?
Ram Dass 7:27
Yeah, I got quite a bit of support, I don’t know that it was easy to find, like shirred, conventional therapy wasn’t very helpful for me, it’s very easy for me to talk about something intellectually and not feel it, essentially. And talking became a really easy way to actually avoid going through what I was feeling. Eventually, I got involved with an organization here in the Bay Area called medicine path. And they have been taught in Indigenous ways and work with plant medicines. And that, basically, through those ceremonies, through counseling through a bunch of activities, through through their organization, I really was able to relax, I was really able to step back and see that the pain was the worst thing I was going to experience from it, I wasn’t going to die from my feelings, and that I was able to have my feelings and that it wouldn’t hurt me further, and it wasn’t going to hurt anyone else. And in fact, the ability to have those feelings in real time would help me actually be happy. So the support was manifold, I would say because I was getting one on one counseling. I was sitting in the medicine ceremonies, I was spending time with people who are trauma informed. One of my best friends now as is basically counselor to the entire San Francisco Fire Department. And you know, just the ability to interact with people who are used to what it’s like to experience trauma helped me relax, you know, I gained a community of empathetic people who also were not going to pit in, pity me for what I went through, and we’re just going to keep loving me no matter what. So yeah, I got a lot of support. But I don’t I don’t even know that I was I didn’t know I was looking for that.
Victoria Volk 9:30
I want to differentiator that I hear and what you were saying initially was that, like talk therapy didn’t really resonate with you work for you. And I’m very much a thinker, and I’m in my own head too. And so that’s where logic like we try to logic our way out of grief. And, you know, we’ll say things like, I’m fine. It’s just, you know, I’ll get over it and it is what it is. It’s what happens you know, we try to bypass a lot and then just put it in a box and put it On the shelf and tuck it away and not really addressing it. Although you ask anybody who approaches their grief in that way, they’ll say, Well, I’m addressing it, I’ve addressed it. Right, but in a box and put it on the shelf, and I put it away. Absolutely not addressing it, though, right? Right. So what you’re telling me and what changed for you is that you took action, like there was action within, combined with that therapy, there was you were taking, you know, you were making steps forward, you were moving forward, you were suffering, but yet you were moving forward. And that’s what I say in grief. Like when I work with clients, it’s you’re already suffering, you might as well suffer and move your feet. And I that’s what I hear you were doing.
Ram Dass 10:41
Exactly, exactly. And in fact, some of the progress created more suffering, and some of the suffering instigated the progress. You know, my life was basically falling apart. What I was trying to do was take care of my family, put food on the table, basically do anything but take care of myself. And I thought that taking care of them was taking care of myself, but it’s very different. I don’t know that there was another way out. And this is the thing is, is logic says I was doing the right things. I was doing the things that felt appropriate for the circumstance. But my family members were going through their own version of grief. And we all go through it in a different way. We all need different things. And when you’re in that recently traumatized state, when you’ve faced a loss that big, I don’t know that you can take care of other people functionally, I don’t know that it would have been possible to make it through happily, I think we did the best we could. And it was really messy. And sometimes it’s that falling apart that actually creates the openings for new life and progress.
Victoria Volk 11:49
Did you have a knowing that your son wouldn’t be around very long after he was born? Did you did you know this?
Ram Dass 11:57
Yeah. 20 weeks, I was actually at Niagara Falls when I got the call that one of the screens came back very poorly. And I was in the middle of a tour. And then the last night of tour was when the ultrasound happened, we thought that my son was actually a girl, because I guess the test had said, had we didn’t do a genetic screening first. So we thought it was a girl. And then after the ultrasound, we found out that it was a boy and he had water on his on his brain. And his feet were kind of clubfoot and basically, then were referred to genetic testing found out that he had Trisomy 18. And we didn’t know that he’d be born alive. You know, that was definitely something that we were facing. And ultimately, we got three days, and we didn’t know if we’d get one. So we had a an awareness of what the reality was for sure.
Victoria Volk 13:01
Not at five months. So you had several months to go knowing this. Yeah. Yeah, I can’t imagine.
Ram Dass 13:10
I can’t remember much of how I felt except just kind of numb and scared. Basically, not a whole lot of room to feel sad, because it was like the trauma had already started by that time, essentially. And we’re all very heavily willed people, I guess we each had a conviction of doing this thing very well, which ultimately didn’t work, as I said, but we were already processing months before he actually was born. Talking about it being scared of it. We weren’t I don’t think we were really making much of it, except to be there in that situation.
Victoria Volk 13:56
Did you hear a lot of unhelpful things during that time?
Ram Dass 14:00
Yeah. I mean, the the doctors consider Trisomy 18. To be, they call it incompatible with life, which is a really intense diagnosis, a really intense thing to say, there are kids who have Trisomy 18, who live longer. And then there’s what’s called Mosaic Trisomy 18, where half of the chromosomes are a part of the crumb or part of the body has this triplicate of the of the chromosome. And those kids live even longer, often. But what we got was they were basically saying we should abort. And I respect everyone’s choice on what they want to do. In that circumstance, and for us with this baby, that didn’t feel like the thing to do it actually felt like we needed to have him and lose him, which is very interesting looking back on it.
Victoria Volk 14:58
For those that may be listening Not sure. I don’t I don’t necessarily know the answer myself. Is that genetic?
Ram Dass 15:05
Yeah, I mean, it’s basically like Down syndrome is triplicate of one of the chromosomes, trisomy 18, is triplicate of a different chromosome. And when certain chromosomes are three, rather than two, it can cause greater problems, or lesser problems, each chromosome codes for different things. And in this case, the 18th chromosome is not great for, you know, healthy adult people, essentially,
Victoria Volk 15:35
May I ask, is this something that you have to keep in mind moving forward having a family?
Ram Dass 15:42
Nope it was totally random. And that’s, that’s great and sad, all at the same time? No, I don’t, I don’t have to worry about that. We actually think that it’s possible that there were pesticides in the water where we were living, and that may have affected it. I’m not a scientist. So I don’t know if that’s actually true. But these things happen, unfortunately.
Victoria Volk 16:05
What was the biggest aside from, you know, finding the support that you didn’t know you needed and finding it and working through and transforming that sorrow and grief into something positive? What were you doing, then? What did you learn about self care in that process? And what does that look like today?
Ram Dass 16:24
Oh, that’s a really great question.
Victoria Volk 16:28
Especially as you face, you know, an anniversary and things like that.
Ram Dass 16:33
Yeah I suppose what I’ve learned is essentially that there’s very little, that’s really a crisis in my life, I have the ability now to step back and actually take time to do something, I don’t feel the impulse to try to make something happen out of response to a body feeling that I’m having the idea that our thoughts happen, and then body feelings happen in response to those thoughts. And that we don’t then need to create stories on top of those feelings, like being able to break that loop has been one of the biggest things for me. And that’s what I’m thinking about. And coming up on his anniversary in April is, I know, I’m going to have feelings, I don’t know what they are. But I want to give myself space and permission to have those feelings. And also not to feel compelled to do something for someone else. Or basically, I’m not going to be codependent to someone else. Or to myself, I’m just going to try and give myself space to have those feelings. And it may be that I go through the day actually feeling really happy. And you know, that’s cool. That’s totally fine. I’m essentially unattached to what feeling states I’m going to have. And I try to go into each moment each day, not trying to control how I’m going to feel, I’m just going to do what I can to take care of myself, eat well sleep, well keep my room clean, keep things feeling good around me. And then how I feel is how I feel. And I know that I’m not going to be a jerk to anyone in response to my feelings. So I don’t have to worry about that. I know that the people around me are not going to criticize me for having the feelings that I’m having everyone understands what I’ve been through, as best as they can. And it’s taken time, I would say the first couple of years. That definitely was not the case. It was It was rough.
Victoria Volk 18:41
What I hear you saying too, is that you created an environment that would support your internal environment and internal healing. Exactly. Yeah. What and you bring up a good point, like clutter and messiness around us like that is really a reflection of what’s going on in our minds, right?
Ram Dass 19:01
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, for neurodivergent people, making mess can be the thing that feels safe. But as I’ve gotten older, I’m 34 Now, I have a desire to actually keep things clean, I have a desire to organize things. Whereas in the past, it was just like, Whatever, I’m just gonna keep doing what I’m doing. The thing that I’m working on is the most important thing. And my environment, I’ll just be flexible to that, whatever. But now I actually care about how I’m sleeping. I care about how the room feels, I care about my surroundings a lot more. And I think when my son was born, it would be what it was. 2014 So when I was 20 I can’t do the math 26 Something like that. Something didn’t shift for me until I was like 30 where or actually cared about doing the dishes, that type of stuff became important biologically at some point, whereas it wasn’t then. So I think also just I suffered the consequences of having a young brain. And now I’m older.
Victoria Volk 20:15
My kids all the time they, you know, when it comes to decision making and doing things, it’s like your frontal lobe isn’t developed until you’re like, 25. And so you’re just on the cusp of that, you know, and that’s a lot of change and loss to experience at that age, when you’re really just coming into yourself.
Ram Dass 20:33
Yeah, exactly, exactly. The executive function was barely there. And it was much more my behavior was, I would say, driven by consequence, rather than by inspiration. So it was doing things out of the fear of something else rather than doing things because that’s what I wanted to do. And it’s taken time to shift my life into a way where it’s like, the things that I’m doing in my day are actually things that I want to do. And that’s I have great privilege in saying that, and it’s taken a lot of work, but but that’s the reality, now,
Victoria Volk 21:08
You found the flow of life to go with the flow of life, it sounds like,
Ram Dass 21:13
Yeah, and it’s not perfect, you know, I still the idea that I could control my setting so as to minimize hard feelings, that’s again intellectualizing and trying to posture around something that doesn’t exist, basically. So I still deal with grief on a daily basis, anger on a daily basis, everything that I was trying to escape before, is still here. But I’m in a much better position and have a have more resilience, and more of a friendship with those feelings, in a way that I just wanted to pretend that they weren’t there before, or really didn’t want to face them.
Victoria Volk 21:58
Was the loss of your son, your first loss?
Ram Dass 22:00
No. I remember, my grandmother died when I was three, I still remember her funeral. My grandfather died when I was in fourth grade, I still remember his funeral. My mom’s sister who I loved dearly, she died in the year 2000. There have been there have been a few big losses in my life before him. But his made me change how I experienced death, I don’t, I experience it as being a teacher now, in a way. And it gave me a lot of perspective, I think being there for a passing being there for a death, and especially so close to a birth, it’s so easy to see that they’re just kind of two sides of the same coin. I’ve seen now multiple times, that it takes work to die for a lot of people, and that there’s a sacredness to it. It’s not it’s not this traumatic thing, the body’s doing what it does. And the scariest part is just the absence of that person. But that has brought so much perspective to the life that I get to live. And the sacredness that I can have in my day, the amount of fun I can have in a day, the amount of beauty I want to experience in my life. Like, I want to pay attention to those things now in a way that I didn’t have time I didn’t have the mental or neurological bandwidth to to appreciate before he passed.
Victoria Volk 23:46
what would you say to someone who has just lost a child that is listening to you, because you can’t rush that right? You can’t rush that evolution of grief is now my teacher and embracing that that’s really difficult to you know, I’m sure if someone would have said that to you. Within a short period of time of him passing you would have wanted to probably punch them in the face. So what would you say to someone who has maybe experienced the loss of a child and are just struggling with that?
Ram Dass 24:21
Yeah, I It’s, even though I’ve been on the on the receiving side of people giving condolences. It’s still not easy. It’s it’s no no easier to talk to people who are experiencing them that themselves because it is so personal, it’s so vulnerable. At times it feels so hopeless. I would just want them to know that they have people that love them, you know that they’re not alone, and that there are people who who want to be there for them and if they can just take as much time as they as they need. And I know that’s really hard. because we’ve got to work and make money and feed our families and take care of other children and parents, and you know, there’s, there’s all sorts of demands in life. But just to give permission to let it all out. Honestly, if there could be a bucket that all of our feelings go into, I would encourage people to whether they’ve experienced loss or not, like life is just hard enough, like, let your feelings into the bucket, let it move, that’s the best advice I could give for anyone, honestly, is just like you’re carrying a lot. And it’s really understandable. And you have every right to empty it from now. And now. And again, I have a friend named Rachel Kaplan who has a program that’s basically called Emotional potty training. And it’s the idea that just like needing to go to the bathroom, you have to do that with your feelings, too. Otherwise, you get constipated, you get backed up. And that is definitely a philosophy that I subscribe to, and would encourage people to look into. But gosh, if if you’ve lost a child, just my heart goes out to you. It’s That’s the hardest thing. It really is. And the present moment that you’re in is what matters. And just take care of yourself. Just just try to surround yourself with a lot of really, really good loving people. And if you need to be alone to No problem, just do, do what you need to do in your own time. And that’s good. That’s good enough.
Victoria Volk 26:39
That’s good enough like that. Actually, that’s brilliant, too. Emotional potty training. It’s actually really brilliant. You know, one thing too, I was thinking about when, you know, like, what does that actually look like when you know, we say, give space for yourself. And you know, it’s hard to find the time to you know, if you’ve got busy demands of family and work and things like that. So like, one idea that I thought of just listening to you talking is going in parking somewhere and just screaming in your car, like just screaming? Or do you live out in the hills or somewhere just you know, have a pasture or something, just go walk in the pan, just scream yourself, you know, something like that? Do you have other ideas,
Ram Dass 27:21
I love that the pillow method is great. You know, pillows can take a lot of abuse, loving abuse, they can you can scream into them, you can pound them, that’s really helpful. Moving your body, the walking is really helpful. Because you know, one of the problems with PTSD, one of the things about fight or flight is that you’re not in your body anymore, you’re actually disconnected from feeling your body. So if you can go take a hike, go take a walk, go swim, go, whatever that helps you feel your body that will help reregulate, and that may actually mean being able to feel like these are all ways of trying to get you to feel your feelings again, because the numbing is so easy to do. And there are so many ways, especially with cell phones, and Netflix, and you know, there’s so many ways we can distract ourselves from the feelings that we’re having the light is really helpful. Just try to try to move, try to vocalize if you have access to talk therapy, like it didn’t work for me. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not helpful. And I don’t know that I could bypass that step either. Like I think if you have options, just do something. That’s that’s really helpful. That’s progress. And you don’t need complete healing from every single visit, every single modality that you do a walk is not supposed to make you suddenly feel like the worlds Okay, again, it’s just like, it’s a way to maybe get 30 seconds of peace in your day. And hey, if you can get 30 seconds, that’s a can feel like great relief. Yeah, I just encourage anything that gets you out of here and into your body out into the world, talking to someone, that’s, that’s all helpful.
Victoria Volk 29:16
I look at healing like, kind of like compound interest. You know, it builds on itself and I look at healing you know, just as it took years and years to build the sorrow and the pain and you know, accumulation of losses that have happened over the years and and all of that grief that has stacked on itself. That didn’t happen overnight. It it accumulates, right. And so I look at healing the same way is that every little thing that you do, can lead to the next thing, right? You may try talk therapy doesn’t work for you, but it leads to something else that does exactly and so I think whatever is a part of that path. It’s just listening into your own intuition and those nudges when you when they come across your way and just listening to those nudges, doing something about it.
Ram Dass 30:11
I love that I totally love that. It’s, it’s, there’s no end goal with healing. And let’s be honest, someone else is going to die. Like, you know, the, the losses in our lives are not going to stop until we do. Like, that’s, that’s the truth. So with the understanding that we’re going to face more grief, we might as well get better at facing it. And time does help. But then there’s another thing and there are more things to be sad about, there are more things to be happy about. And so I agree build that, build that compound interest of, of healing and, and you’re, I feel like that’s what I’m calling resilience. It’s the baseline that you have to deal with what’s coming up. And it does fit, it’s hard at first and it does build over time.
Victoria Volk 31:09
Well, and with that comes awareness, because as you get a little bit further along in your path, you can look at something might come up, right, you might feel this is familiar. Well, this is what I used to do. And this happened. Oh, but this is how I this is how I’m addressing it now and you see the progress, right, you can see your own progress. Yeah. And that builds confidence to and how prepared and emotionally sound that you can be when crisis strikes or life becomes chaotic and, but sometimes to when those moments happen, like everything just goes out the window and you kind of you know, might feel crazy for a time and that’s okay, too.
Ram Dass 31:56
Exactly. I I love that and think that permission to not be okay, is important. No one is holding us to a higher standard than we are to ourselves. So if you just can’t do it for a day or longer, it’s really not the end of the world like it’s okay. So permission to fall apart, I think is really important. And then you have maybe a little less pressure on yourself to perform. Like, I feel like so much of recovery, especially in a capitalistic society is, well how soon can you go back to being normal? Like, there is no normal anymore. And the expectation that you should be anything other than how you are is bogus to me. So yeah, space space and a lot of self compassion. And not in a I’m doing so great sort of way. But just in a It’s okay, it’s totally fine. Do what you need to do. Like, if there were I sometimes imagined that there was this like, mystical beings sitting on my shoulder who’s just like a very wise jolly person. Who whenever I felt like I wasn’t doing something, right, was just there going doing great. Doing great. Don’t worry, you’re doing great. And kind of going back to that and checking in with that feeling like, oh, this is okay, too. This is fine. Okay, that that really helped.
Victoria Volk 33:37
What has your grief taught you? Now that you are, you know, ROM das 2.0 After this devastating loss, what has grief taught you that you can reflect on now?
Ram Dass 33:52
I think that there’s the opportunity for beauty and basically any moment of my life. I feel very rich, having holding hands with grief. I feel like I experience the world in a way that a lot of people might not get to, which is that interactions with other people are really precious, because it all might go away in an instant, the wind, the feeling of water sunsets, sunrises. I feel like it’s all less of an inconvenience or something that’s just happening and more of a blessing and something to pay attention to. So ultimately, I think grief has taught me to pay attention to what’s going on around me and what’s going on inside of me because of the limitation of time. fact that it is also temporary. It taught me a new perspective on how to interact with the world.
Victoria Volk 35:00
How do you remind yourself of those things? You know, I, what it sounds like to me is this this gratitude, right? to immerse yourself in gratitude and I, it’s so easy to get caught up in day to day tasks and just to live right every day doing things that require us to work or like even just taking a shower, like just the appreciation, how do you hold on to that perspective? Like, what? Do you have a trick for that? Or?
Ram Dass 35:29
That’s a great question. Sometimes I need to cry, honestly. Because if I’m not feeling like, in a way, the gratefulness for the world around me, the noticing of the beauty is now baseline for me, that’s, that’s me functioning well. If that’s not happening, then I need to check in and see what’s going on. And often, what that means is, I’m working too hard, I’m not taking care of myself in some way, I’m not feeding myself, I’m not sleeping well, or I’m overly anxious about something, and being able to admit that I’m scared or sad or angry, and then have that feeling, then turns it flips the switch. And it’s like, being able to fully cry, being able to be fully angry, not saying at someone, but just like, express the feeling, or just feel the fear. It’s like, that’s part of the formula of happiness. And I think there’s an easy or a misconception intellectually, that being sad, fearful or angry means that you’re not happy. But to me, there’s a happiness includes all of having all of the other feelings. Because the happiness for me feels like a holistic understanding of being human, it is the appreciation of being human. So if I can cry, if I can feel those feelings, it’s like the switch goes on. And suddenly the worlds in Technicolor again. And then I think about what can I do with that would make this day this activity is whatever’s right in front of me feel good. And it’s often quite simple. And then there’s a way to be creative about that experience. So say, I have zoom calls for work, like, you know, that’s all it becomes fun, it becomes a a, an a special interaction, put on music that I really like, I get to make music. So thinking about what I want to express in that music, all of these things suddenly become more apparent, as I’m less bogged down by my own anxiety or cynicism.
Victoria Volk 37:47
I love now something that I need to apply in my own life.
Ram Dass 37:52
This is regular regular for me, too.
Victoria Volk 37:54
Yeah, I mean, you get so tied up and wrapped up around the axle of life itself, like the to dues and the obligations. And, you know, we often do forget just to really, truly check in. And if I’m not appreciating this, that is because my attention is somewhere else. That probably won’t matter. Three months from now, five years.
Ram Dass 38:16
Probably not probably not. Right, with a few exceptions. Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. And
Victoria Volk 38:23
A lot of weight, and stock in a lot of things that really just don’t matter.
Ram Dass 38:30
Right. Right. And it’s fun to like, I think there’s a certain level of entertainment, in getting emotional about things that should not necessarily be so weighty. But then having that perspective and just go, oh my god, I love what I’m doing. I’m so wrapped up in this thing, and it doesn’t matter, even that relief can be massive. And then being able to not put pressure on ourselves about those things. It’s just like, okay, so all I actually need to do is show up and be kind, like, that’s a really simple job. And then the risk, all the other responsibilities that we’ve put on ourselves can be a lot, a lot less.
Victoria Volk 39:17
And it’s to be kind to ourselves first. Now, if I’m not going to do this thing, or if I’m doing if I’m sacrificing this to do list for following my curiosity, or following my inspiration, or following my flow, and this other thing, or following my desire to spend time with this person, you know, it’s Yeah, yeah. I’m just reflecting out loud. Yeah. Based on what your shared so it’s, that’s good. Yeah. So how has I mean, I kind of alluded to at the beginning, but your music has changed because of this experience. You’ve had and how I imagined, you know, because grief changes everything in our lives and it impacts everything in our lives. It impacts our music, music. I didn’t mean I mean didn’t mean to say music, but I’m sure it did. But yeah, well, yeah, it does. I mean, every, whatever our work is, right, whatever our career is, it affects that it affects our money and reflects our relationships or reflects how we see ourselves. Like, it just blows up everything in our lives. Someone said to me earlier in a podcast interview, it’s like, when you have these waves that come up, he’s was recounting how he found some keepsakes of his mother’s. And she’s been gone for almost 40 years. But he had never seen these things before. And so now all of a sudden, you know, she was a child when she died. And he’s seen these things. And if he says, feels like a shipwreck, and stuff is just coming onto the shore, and I’m just having to look at these things. I just thought that’s a beautiful analogy. But that’s, that’s how grief is it can feel like a shipwreck, time and time and time again.
Ram Dass 41:09
Yeah. And it’s fluid like that. It really is. For me, grief is very watery. And I’ve actually incorporated that into my music. There’s a song on the on that EP, and now he has wings, that’s called the water poem. And it’s, it’s grief. It’s all the feelings, it’s and also the fact that, you know, I found out about my son’s condition at Niagara Falls, it felt like the water was carrying the message. And there’s water, we are water and all of that. So water is a big theme that I play with, with music.
Victoria Volk 41:48
Well. And we are made up of mostly water, right, exactly energy, we are energy, there’s a commercial for a car and electric car. And it talks to talks about how we are electric, like we are made of electricity, just like these electric cars, right. And just as like an electric car needs to be recharged and the battery and needs juice and all of that, like we are no different. Totally no different ingredient we can deplete, deplete our energetic battery, and just everything goes haywire. And I’m a Reiki Master too. And so I deal with energy and yeah, and, and all of that. But how, like, how do you feel? Would you not that you would go back to rom das one point? No, right. But do you look back and just think like, what are the biggest takeaways of how life was before and how you were living your life before and what you believed maybe about grief? Versus Now what was the understanding that you had about grief? Like what were you raised to believe about grief.
Ram Dass 42:55
We didn’t really talk about our feelings much I was raised in, in a spiritual community that basically had the idea that if you do enough Yoga, you basically don’t have to deal with your life’s problems, that yoga was the way through anything that you’re dealing with in your life, whether it’s your feelings, or relationship problems, or whatever. So you name it, there was a, an exercise for it a meditation for it. And to me, it’s just not true. The biggest takeaway is that I did know that I needed to actually grieve and I didn’t want to do it. And ultimately, the only way to do it is to do it. The only way through it is to go through it. And I don’t know that I could have done it any differently. To be honest, I don’t know that knowing it. Any deeper would have changed a thing about what happened then. Because I needed whatever I needed to get out of my own stubbornness and learn that I’m okay. And not necessarily in the sense of like, a self aggrandizing I’m okay. Or I’m fine. I don’t need to do anything. But like, Who I am is good. I am okay. And having all my feelings is also okay. And acceptable and needed. So yeah, I mean, I don’t know that. I could have done it any differently. Because I just had to have those feelings in those life experiences. And it was painful and messy. And especially when you’re a smart person raised very intellectually, you know, you know how to think your way out of problem solve your way out of so many situations. We’re just going to find the next way to avoid and come up with some clever way through, but it’s like, the cleverness was actually the problem. The way through was actually very simple. And it was basically softening to myself and allowing myself to be who I am, and have the feelings that I have as a biological being not as a spiritual person, like, This, to me is very not woowoo in any way. It’s just like, I have biology, my life circumstances were traumatic, there is a certain thing that needs to happen to help regulate. And it comes in with a spiritual component and an intellectual component of validation. And understanding that this is good at this, that I’m, I’m good for having that, that I’m human for having that and appreciating it.
Victoria Volk 45:44
It’s very interesting that you brought up how you were raised in how yoga was such an integral part of your upbringing, because I almost brought up yoga when you mentioned about being inside your body. And it just really brings up for me that, you know, what we talked about in Grief Recovery? I’m a grief recovery specialist is that, you know, we have these stirrups that we often short term energy relieving behaviors that we resort to when we’re not when we don’t want to feel what we’re feeling, right. And just based on what you told me like it just as an example of how exercise, right, like exercise can be a sturb. But yoga is an exercise, it’s an exercise of being in your body. Yep, it can be a sturb it can be a way that people believe that there be like that by being in my body. I’m somehow healing myself, right? But if you’re, you know, focused on your breath, and you’re in the moment, you’re, you’re in your body. But are you allowing yourself to feel exactly in that moment? That doesn’t mean you’re feeling?
Ram Dass 46:54
Nope, no. And that’s, that’s what’s so funny about all of this. And what’s like, maybe ironic about the whole process is I could have chosen to feel with any activity that I was doing. And maybe that’s the takeaway is, the allowing of having feelings can happen in any activity, and the denial of feelings can happen in in any activity, it’s the way you do it, not the activity itself. So while a lot of things on the outside and performatively are the right thing to do, there, the truth is, you could be completely absent while doing those performative things, you could still be doing these stirpes, as you’re talking about, you can still not have your feelings while doing everything that you’ve been prescribed to do. So yoga can be super helpful. If you can be there with yourself and your breathing and your having your feelings to walking, running, even just sitting and reading a book like that can either be distracting or can inspire feeling within you. So hard to prescribe activities when it’s like, you know, pick any of a million off of the list. But with the caveat, you have to take a dose of having your feelings to.
Victoria Volk 48:17
I have not thought about STURMS in this way, that if you are allowing yourself to feel while you’re doing them, even if they’re healthy, right? That’s the thing like people think, well, it’s healthy, it’s good for me, it’s self care. Yeah. But maximize it then. Right? Exactly, is that healthy thing?
Ram Dass 48:40
Exactly. And ultimately, if you can get to being able to have a good cry, and a release the full emotional release. For me, I go back to regulating way faster. It’s like the amount of time that it takes to actually get there is a lot shorter and a lot less tiring, then perpetuating not having the feeling. So in a lot of ways, I think one of the most fatiguing things about grief is the fact that we’re not really having it, in the sense that we’re not moving it in a lot of cultures. There’s a an understanding that grief needs to be witnessed in order to be fully processed. And they do that through ceremony in a lot of places where it’s actually they’ve created a ritual that is like, Look, our ancestors can’t have feelings. They don’t have grief, your grief feeds them. So give them like go to the altar and give them your grief. And then you will be rewarded and I you know you feel it biologically, if you let it go. Suddenly your body goes oh, I’m okay. You know, you might be exhausted, of course. But there’s a settling. There’s a regulation and a soothing that can happen. Tangential way of saying that What we’ve been saying you gotta gotta do it, to get through.
Victoria Volk 50:05
Got to feel it to heal it. Exactly. So what gives you the most hope for your future?
Ram Dass 50:11
That’s a great question. I don’t think about my future a lot. That gives me a lot of hope. I don’t feel very preoccupied with what’s going to happen in the next day. I don’t feel preoccupied and what’s going to happen in the next five years, I’m really quite focused on what’s happening in the moment. And in that given day, and yeah, I plan the week I plan the month. I know what’s I know what’s happening, hypothetically, from now until July, and I have projects booked up for the rest of the year, but like I’m actually paying attention to today. And that, to me, is the most hopeful thing, because that’s where everything’s happening. The future is undetermined. And I would just be posturing about something that I know nothing about. So I just, I just try to stay in the present moment, and appreciate what’s here.
Victoria Volk 51:02
I had heard once and never even occurred to me, but how you spell present is a present that you give to someone a gift, right?
Ram Dass 51:13
Yeah, they said, Kung Fu Panda. Yeah, it’s brilliant. It’s totally wrong. It’s true. It is the gift. It’s the gift that’s here. And again, like, because I was raised in a spiritual community, I am very anti woowoo. In my own self, like, it’s just my childhood, like, you know, your parents feeding you steamed broccoli, there’s a certain like, but the truth is the my own happiness, my own good feelings come in thinking of not really thinking about the future or the past and more just what there is in front of me, that feels very satisfying to me.
Victoria Volk 51:50
You bring up a question that came to me in what you said. So do you feel like that relationship with your son has continued? Do you feel? Do you feel this connection to your son? Still?
Ram Dass 52:07
Yeah, I think my relationship is maybe through what I do. And through my experiences, I don’t feel like I’m communicating with him. I don’t feel like he’s necessarily sending me messages. But I’m also not looking for them anymore. Like that was something that I felt like I needed to do it was the instinctive thing after he passed for a while was just like, look out for the signs. At this point, my life is sort of a reflection of what I’ve learned and recovered from. And I feel like that’s the biggest gift. And so what I get to do, who I get to be around who I get to talk to, that all feels like him living on in me. And the fact that I’m getting to make music now that is about him. That’s dedicated to him. That’s, that’s what I got, basically, and I think it’s big. And I also feel a sense of a certain sense of closure, in a way because I didn’t have the space to have my feelings about his passing. I didn’t have the space to grieve until years later, until the last couple years, honestly. And now being able to make something beautiful that is touching other people too. It’s it’s so beautiful and rewarding. So I feel like the music is him living on it’s, it’s not Yeah, I really feel like that’s him living on in me.
Victoria Volk 53:33
That’s beautiful. Thanks. Where can people listen to your music and find you if they’d love to connect with you?
Ram Dass 53:40
It is everywhere. So Spotify, Apple Music, Pandora, you name it, it’s there. I’m on Spotify as Ram Dass R A M D A S S there is one other very famous Ram Dass. I’m the other one. And my EP is called and now he has wings. I can also go to ramdassmusic.com And all of it is there. And I’m on Instagram as @ramdassmusic Twitter @ramdass I’m around.
And I will link to the show notes. Awesome. Oh, that is there anything else you’d like to share?
I just I’m really grateful that that there’s a space to get to talk about these things, to talk about grief to talk about death and loss in a positive light. Maybe positive isn’t the right word in a productive way, and an appreciative way because for me it it really is not an existential tragedy. Like it’s it’s the truth about living is that there is loss and I’m always grateful when there’s someone like you who’s not only willing but eager to have these conversations and try to give a little solace and hope for people who are not feeling that right now, because of what they’re going through.
Victoria Volk 55:06
That’s perfect. And thank you so much for being my guest.
Ram Dass 55:11
Thanks so much for having me.
Victoria Volk 55:13
You remember when you unleash your hearts, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast |
Kyira Wackett | Collateral Damage to Adversity Rising
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Imagine identifying your parent for a crime, knowing that what you disclose will send your only parent to prison. Imagine moving 11x by the time you were in the 5th grade. And imagine being the child of a parent who, for most of your childhood, was struggling with undiagnosed bipolar disorder.
Kyira was no stranger to chaos and uneasiness. She was the only child of a parent who turned to substances to cope with her mental health challenges and, in many ways, was the adult in the relationship. Perhaps to compensate for her shortcomings, her mother had no boundaries in her parenting, and Kyira pretty much dictated many decisions that had to be made; from which bedroom she got to have in a new place to if a man would get a second date with her mom, the buck stopped with Kyira.
What you may think would lead to entitlement instead laid the foundation for Kyira to be a high-performing, academically thriving student who would develop an eating disorder for eight years.
There are many twists and turns in Kyira’s story. And what’s most fascinating about Kyira’s story is how she managed to go from being collateral damage to rising from the ashes of the adversity she experienced in her life.
RESOURCES:
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Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. If this is your first time listening, welcome and if you’ve listened before, thank you for coming back. Today my guest is Kyra whack. Whack it. She is a passionate therapist, facilitator and creator. She lives in Portland, Oregon with her husband, Jordan and her daughter Everly. She is the founder of adversity rising, as well as sees patients in a private therapy practice with a specialty on eating disorders, anxiety disorders, and trauma. She has been speaking on topics related to mental health and wellbeing for over 10 years and focuses much of her current research and trainings on shame, forgiveness, burnout and grief. She developed her own model to support people in this work called live and live on purpose, wherein she walks people through five phases, identify, build, define, clarify and do to get them from a state of pain and stuckness to one of intention and freedom. She believes that all of us have the capacity to author our own stories, and relinquish the holds of shame, fear and anxiety, if we can learn to do the hard work, sit in the discomfort and face our true selves and trust the process. Thank you so much for being here. And that must be I think it is one of the best BIOS I’ve ever received. I couldn’t have written it better myself. Oh, that’s so kind of you. So thank you for being my guest today. And I’m really excited because there’s an aspect of your story that has not been covered, actually two that have not been covered on this podcast. And one is being the child of an undiagnosed parent with bipolar. I mean, it took many years for her to get diagnosed, and also eating disorders. And so I’m, I’m looking forward to diving deep into those topics today. And so let’s start with your childhood and how it shaped the work that you’re doing today.
Kyira Wackett 1:54
Yeah, it’s it’s always one of those interesting things. And I think everyone’s story is like, what is the starting point. And when I think about the trajectory of what my life kind of entailed I start with when I was born, so my mom was a single mom, she had me at 35, she had been told that she had had three miscarriages and a stillborn prior to having me and had been told by many doctors that she was never going to carry a pregnancy successfully to term. She wasn’t going to have kids, things were never going to work out for that specific dream that she had. And so my mom, obviously unbeknownst to me at this time, and unbeknownst to her, was living with what we found out when she was caught in her 50s, I think is when she was diagnosed, but with bipolar disorder. So my mom was already struggling for the first 15 years of adulthood, with substance use with kind of not sleeping just this sort of hyper fixation on stuff. When she got pregnant with me, my mom, it was kind of this like, sobering experience. She got pregnant, she was again, not expecting to have a kid she had, she was kind of just sexually free doing whatever she wanted to do kind of living her life. Like there’s, there’s nothing left for me. So I think there was kind of a depression within that. But she had me her whole world became about me. And she went back to night school, she got a nursing degree, she got sober pretty much immediately. So she found out she was pregnant about three months, I think into being pregnant four months, maybe, and stopped using any substances at that time. But obviously, for the first three, four months, I had no idea she was pregnant. So kind of had this benefit of finding out that nothing had happened to me, that would be traumatic for me in terms of, again, not being able to carry the pregnancy, things like that. And then I think about for the first 11 years our life was now I see that it wasn’t necessarily amazing all the time. But it felt amazing. It was me and my mom, my mom was always there. We had I was the fun house that everybody wanted to come spend the time at my house, she always wanted to do fun things with me. She worked a lot. So that was one thing that I remember kind of picking up on early in life, like my mom can work days on end, that doesn’t seem necessarily normal. And then she’d have days where she didn’t get out of bed. That also didn’t seem necessarily normal. Like I remember for things my 10th birthday, she had gotten out of bed for like four or five days. And then suddenly it was the day on my birthday party and she was up and she had ordered chocolate malt ice cream from the swans man that was being delivered and had all these pizzas and a pizza oven and costumes and all this fun stuff to do and she just kind of jumped to this high and then she’d crash again. And then when I was just about to turn 11 I think it was like maybe a month before my birthday. I started to notice that things were getting worse. We I had my mom would move on I think by the time I was in fifth grade, which was the year that I ended up leaving my mom, we had moved, I think 11 times. So again, these little things that now looking back, I go, Oh, this would make sense for somebody that struggled with bipolar disorder. And this sort of activity, this heightened activity in the brain. But she ended up coming back to get me from school one day, and she said, we had to go, we have to leave right now. And she had bought sunglasses from a gas station. She was not she didn’t make sense to me at all there was it was kind of this look in her eyes was like, What is wrong with my mom. And it had turned out that my mom had relapsed. So prior to having me, she used cocaine, she used a lot of substances. I don’t remember her drinking, doing any substance for the first 1011 years of our lives. But what happened was she as a nurse was working in home care and hospice care settings. And she started to take meds from patients, and then eventually started forging prescriptions. And so she was getting bike it in under other people’s names, and then taking the bike it in. And for my mom, for people with bipolar disorder, sometimes drugs affect them differently. So Vikatan was like cocaine for her. So it was working like speed in her brain, and she could go go go, well, everything started to crash down. And I remember her telling me like, we have to go now we’re going to drive till I don’t I don’t remember the full plan. But again, she had sunglasses for both of us, we were leaving, because things were crashing. And I was like, Mom, we can’t go. That’s not okay, we can’t do this. And that was this kind of kind of moment, when I remember stepping into the parents seat fully of what it meant to take care of my mom, because it clicked to me, my mom’s not okay. And whatever is going on right now I have to be this quote, unquote, strong one for her. And that was about two weeks later, I ended up leaving, I ended up moving in with family, my mom ended up going into she somehow got a deal. And I’m assuming through the courts in some way that you end up going to a treatment center as opposed to going to jail. So it’s kind of a condition of what had happened. And that I pretty much credit is like the onpoint of when most of my grief started. And most of my trauma history really started to kind of hit the fan. And again, where I crossed over from being a kid to being an adult.
Victoria Volk 7:17
I think a lot of young children growing up in that environment, even adults that well, adults that grew up having to be the parent. Yeah. Do you hate the word resilient? As much as I do, like, are resilient when people say that, like children are resilient? Like they’ll bounce back? Like I absolutely just want to slap people when they say that, like don’t say that. That’s my opinion, because children don’t choose to be resilient, right?
Kyira Wackett 7:44
I mean, I think there’s this way that we’ve kind of, I think we’d like to craft stories in a way that feels more digestible. So I think sometimes we say that about like, oh, kids are so resilient as a way to saying, What happened to that kid was incredibly unfair and traumatic, and I don’t know how they’re doing how well they’re doing. And the other thing I hate about that is, so I will get into this, I’m sure in this discussion, but my reaction, my response, the role that I took, and the way that my brain is wired is I took the sort of in the all or nothing approach the all approach. So I became the parent I, I remember, for periods of time, even before the kind of breakdown happen of like, I would be the one getting myself ready to school, I was missing so much school, I wasn’t aware of it. Because that was so normal, I was thriving in all these areas where I shouldn’t have because that was my response, I became the perfectionist, I became the hyper performer. What I hate when you think about the term resilience is somebody like me would have been labeled as resilient. But a kid that went through the same thing that developed a substance use disorder that struggled in school that ended up having, you know, quote, unquote, the problem child, they wouldn’t have been labeled resilient, because they didn’t come out doing the behaviors everyone thinks would have been more convenient and better. So I think I do I have reactions to that, because I think resilience is a really important topic, but we took it out of context. And now we use it in a way that I think doesn’t actually match what people went through. And as a way of kind of absorbing the pain of what it took to get to that point for sure.
Victoria Volk 9:11
Bingo, yes. I pretty much raised myself too. And I became the emotional parent. Yes. And yeah, so totally, it just just gets me a little bit, for sure. And during that time, too, though, like your whole upbringing, your father obviously was not in the picture.
Kyira Wackett 9:34
No, and, and so there’s some debate. So one of the struggles with having a parent with bipolar disorder, but also with I mean, she defines herself as an addict. She used that term I don’t like I like the person first language. I don’t know if that’s the therapist in me or what but, you know, she’ll talk about being an addict. She’ll talk about these things. Her brain is wired as such that she’s lived for so long in her life to preserve the story. She’s trying to uphold that I don’t always know what’s exactly true and what’s not. So the stories I was told about my dad, they changed all the time. I remember at one point when I was little, she told me if I ever wanted to meet my grandparents, I could. But then there were times where it was like your dad’s one of three people. And then there were times where I was like, I don’t know, I was having sex with anybody. I don’t know who your dad is. I think the story is that she was having sex with a small number of people, she got pregnant with me, and then whomever she was all dating, or not dating, sleeping with whatever, that sort of ended. I don’t know why I don’t know any of that. And I don’t honestly think she knows either. But it is apparent to me now that she doesn’t know who my dad is, or was. And it wasn’t until I have a now that she just turned two in February. It wasn’t till about six months before she was born, that I even knew anything about my racial and ethnic background. So I found out then, that I am half Middle Eastern, which didn’t come from my mom. So now I know when my dad’s Middle Eastern. I know nothing else about me and my dad’s heritage, but that and so yeah, I mean, I’m jumping obviously, decades into the future. But that was the sort of weird kind of coming back to grieving, like growing up, I felt like it was a grief every time somebody like, Oh, what do your parents think, you know, or is your dad doing this? It’s like, a few. I don’t have that like way to make assumptions. But then when I got older, it was realizing there’s so much about my life that I don’t know, and even my genetics to know. What’s my daughter’s story? What’s the experience she has? So yeah, not around. She dated, but had poor boundaries. So again, I was I was her everything, I still am like, in an unhealthy way, she would drop anything to do anything for me. And I think probably part of that is some codependency, some traumas she went through as a kid some some things that she hasn’t had the opportunity to deal with fully either, but like, I would go on dates with her. And I got to decide if she went on another date with someone like that is not an appropriate role for you know, a 6789 year old kid to have, where I dictated everything in the household, we would get three bedroom apartments. And I would have a play room and a bedroom, the master bedroom, and she would have the smallest room like she made everything about me. And one of the surprising things is I don’t know how I didn’t become more entitled, I think I have an entitlement sometimes around maybe unrealistic expectations of people being able to be there for me emotionally and I think that’s more trying to sometimes get what I didn’t get from her as a kid. But I think she couldn’t do that. But like her bipolar mixed with her kind of codependency a mesh met with me, she would buy me I mean, I had probably at least five 600 Beanie Babies, you know, like every Barbie that would get released if there were Polly Pockets, like I’m buying every single one of them. And so it was it was an interesting lifestyle. And I think I was present defied much more than I even realized. The veil just like kind of completely came off that day that I was like, No, Mom, you’re doing things that are not safe and good for the world. And you need to be held accountable. And that’s when I think I became aware of what I had been conditioned to be for her since I was born.
Victoria Volk 13:22
And how old were you in that awareness hit you.
Kyira Wackett 13:26
Just it was just before my 11th birthday, when that became really apparent to me. And I look back now and think my entire fourth and fifth grade year. I mean, I was doing all the grocery ordering. I was I was making food, making food was Lunchables. And again, we ordered from the swans, man. I don’t even know if that was a thing across the whole US. But it was a big thing in Wisconsin where I was from. And so I’d get like the swans man to deliver food. And it was obviously like frozen meals and chocolate malt ice cream is what I remember except eat that for breakfast in the morning every morning. And she wouldn’t know she was either working or she was depressed and crashed, you know, and looking back on it probably also coming down from Vikon high if that was the case, too. And so yeah, I mean, I think that just was my normal for so long. There are things now that I’ll still say to my husband. And he’s like, that’s not the average childhood experience. And I I just don’t know, different even being a therapist now and hearing dozens of stories, hearing hundreds of 1000s of people’s childhoods, it’s still weird, but I think again, that moment where it’s like No mom, you need to go like you should go to jail. Like that was a weird thing. To be telling my mom that she needed to be held accountable for something and I think that was the moment where I was like, Oh, I’m the adult here, not her.
Victoria Volk 14:49
So what happened after that?
Kyira Wackett 14:51
Well, the the promise was, you know, I’ll go to treatment. I think it was a the initial one I believe was like a three months residential program and In northern Wisconsin, and I was going to go live with family during that time. And I ended up moving in with an aunt and uncle of mine, about an hour and a half, two hours away from where I was, I was moving schools again, I was moving in with my three cousins, and I only child, so that was a big transition and change for me. And I also had a big, pretty big fear of men, adult men growing up, there was some trauma that I had with guys that she did date not, I don’t think that was the only dictating reason why I was scared of them. But there’s a lot of stuff I went through that again, sort of wasn’t normal and men that I would spend a lot of time with that my mom hadn’t maybe fully vetted that shouldn’t have been in a parenting or caregiving role. But I also think on the opposite side, I didn’t really ever have solid male figures in my life. So they were just sort of unsafe for me. So I moved in with my aunt, uncle, three cousins trying to navigate three other kids who have no respect for their stuff, have no like very opposite of me. Because again, I’m the perfectionist, I took care of everything, everything is organized. And I’m sharing a room with a kid who is six years younger than me. So so she must have been just have turned six, or she was turning six, and I was 11. So it was maybe five and a half years difference. And going to a new school, navigating all this stuff. And having the primary parents that was doing the coordination stuff was my uncle. So now I’m around an adult meal all the time. And so three months, and I was like, okay, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. Three months turned into I never lived with my mom again. She never got sober during that period of time. So from 11 until my early 20s. She was in and out of jail prison treatment centers. On the streets. She when she left that treatment center. I don’t remember all the specifics. But very soon after that one. She was back in the Milwaukee area, some Waukee, Wisconsin was where I was living. And that had been a play. She had spent a lot of time when she had used cocaine in the past or used other drugs in the past. She ended up back there and she had relapsed back to cocaine. And that was really where the downfall happened. And yeah, we never I never lived with her again. Two years later, I was kicked out of my aunt’s house was a very weird. Honestly, that was something I grieved more than a lot of what happened with my mom, I woke up one morning, and there was a note on the table that said that I needed to call her immediately when I woke up and my best friend at the time, Sam was with me. And we called her and she told me on the phone that I had six hours to pack and get out of her house. And she was going to be dropping my stuff off. She had called my grandma I found this out later basically called my grandma and kind of said something to the effect of if you won’t take her I’m dumping her stuff on your lawn and you can call Child Services. Now I know decades later, my aunt had a lot of her own mental health stuff she hadn’t dealt with. So I think that I was just collateral damage in that and she just couldn’t absorb everything she was doing. But I was moved then. Well then I think my grandma was going to Spain, like a few days later for two or three weeks on a trip. So she’s like, I can’t take her What am I supposed to do is actually moved in with my friends, Sam, she was there during this period of time she called her mom, she’s like, Mom, I don’t know what to do. She’s panicking. I’m sobbing in the background. We’ve got all these empty boxes. I moved in with her for a few weeks, and I moved in with my grandma. And my grandma basically became my mom. She was the stable parent that I needed. But she was 60 years older than me and had been done raising kids. And so her now learning how to parent, a kid and a very different generation with very intense trauma, who also has her own trauma past who also now has had her own mental health diagnoses that we didn’t necessarily know about at the time. And she has an incredibly enmeshed relationship with my mom, a very codependent relationship with my mom, too. So it was a very interesting dynamic between the three of us and but it was stable. My grandma acted like a parent, she didn’t need me to take care of her in the same way, I transitioned more into a parent role kind of in my 20s When my grandma’s mental health sort of declined, but I got to at least be a kid as much as you can. Once the veil has been lifted. She tried to keep putting it back on my head to at least allow me to have a little bit of that through my high school experience through the start of my college experience. But I honestly I think, you know, I remember my mom would dip in and out. She would show up sometimes coming down from a cocaine high. I would get calls from drug dealers because we thought it was a good idea at the time I had gotten our cell phone and our phone numbers were the exact same except the last two digits at the end so people would displace the digits and call and think I was my mom. So I’m like 14 on the phone that drugged you Hillary is demanding money, she would steal from clean my savings account out, she cleaned a grandma out several times. It’s very, very hard. And then she, I can’t remember what year it was, it was eighth grade or freshman year. But she ended up in sort of a desperate state broke into our house. But we didn’t know who it was. So all my brain has held on to is my house was broken into. And there was a threat. There was somebody that was with her that that called out to us and threatened us that we better not come downstairs. And so my grandma and I were upstairs, she had somehow gotten a window open and stole my grandma’s Purse has kind of a last attempt to I think, pay off somebody she owed for drugs or something. And then I made a mistake somehow unused on my grandma’s credit cards. So then there was tracking. And that was when everything crashed for her the most significant she ended up going into prison for almost three years, it was two and a half years, she didn’t get out until my senior year of high school. And the hardest part, honestly was I had to identify her in the stills that they had from the gas station. And that was again, another one of those moments of I’m the parent here. And and I’m responsible for sending my mom to prison. And that was a really hard thing for me to let go have because I think I don’t, I don’t know why if this was healthy coping skills, now it feels like it’s been helpful. But I think it was also maybe not wanting to shame her. But I was always trying to see my mom and then see the addiction as two separate things. And so it was a weird place to be in to be, you know, 15, maybe I was going on 16 At the time, identifying like, this is my mom and the photos, knowing I’m going to be the reason my mom, because my grandma press charges, she was like, we can’t keep doing this, at least if your mom’s in jail or in prison, she’s safe. And the best part was, that’s where she got diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So when she was in prison, there are a lot of things that are terrible about the prison system. My mom is white. My mom is, you know, this like charming, middle aged white lady. So her experience is very different than a lot of people in our countries that have to go through terrible things in the prison system. In her case, probably some of those factors played into it. But I have a lot of gratitude for her having gone there because that’s when she didn’t get sober after that. It was still about five, six more years before she was like fully sober from cocaine use. But she she got diagnosed and at least we started to have some answers, at least we had information to work with. And it made more sense to me why my mom couldn’t be the mom that I needed her and wanted her to be.
Victoria Volk 22:49
So it wasn’t until you were about 23/24 where she was actually diagnosed.
Kyira Wackett 22:55
No, she got to know she got diagnosed before the end of high school. So before she left, and she just didn’t get sober. She I mean, it didn’t. She got meds to help manage the bipolar disorder. She got all sorts of things to help her but she was still not ready. And able, you know, not like it was all a choice, her brain was still not healed in a way that she was able to give up substances. And I think she had so much pain that when she left when she was leaving prison, it was too painful. Life was way too painful for her. She came out she got an apartment she was out for a few months before she relapsed. And the relapses started because I remember when I had bought a bottle of coconut Malibu rum, and it was like a coconut something flavor and I was 18. And I had hit it in my mom’s car because she had had the basically like a work release. She was in a lower level prison. So she had been able to work so she had gotten some money. And then she had a job when she left working at a sawmill and it was the place she had worked out while she was in prison. So she had had some money. So she got kind of a beater car. She had an apartment, a transitional living apartment, and I had gotten some alcohol and I was like I had it in her car for some reason. I don’t remember exactly what it was it was going to hang out with my friends. And she found it and I remember waking up in the middle of the night when I was staying over one night and she was selling DVDs to a neighbor for drugs like I saw it down the hallway and that was kind of a she’s leaving again, sort of awareness. And there were a lot of instances during college like I remember getting called from my uncle that my mom had shown up at my grandma’s house Hi. Turned out she had overdosed on her she was she was I don’t know if her intention was to end her life. But she had taken a lot of medication in response to being quote found out it’s kind of what she talks about is like I couldn’t handle being found out. I didn’t know what to do. So I remember having to email a professor saying I was going to miss a final exam and I had to take an incomplete class because none of my family could deal with what was happening with my mom. Um, so I had to drive home to be like, alright, this is what we’re doing. You know, I had called the police on the way there said that she had had, you know, ingested substances took her to there was a behavioral health mental health clinic associated with the main hospital in Milwaukee got her checked, and they’re going through the paperwork like that was still my college experience. And I don’t, I was right around the time I was turning 2122 that she got sober from cocaine for good. So I was right before I graduated college, because she was able to be at my college graduation, she was able to, she was sober at the time she was present. She was still using other prescription drugs. The downside was they were they were being prescribed to her by providers. So I still think that that was not sobriety. I think now 1012 13 years later, she’s recognizing that wasn’t full sobriety, and still isn’t, in some ways. But that was, that was different. There was a difference. She was at least present and not on the streets. I didn’t have to go try to find her, you know, in inner city, Milwaukee, things like that.
Victoria Volk 26:10
So how did you? I mean, did you know like when you entered college, and or were you thinking about college, did you know that you wanted to be a therapist?
Kyira Wackett 26:20
No I Well, I guess on some level, maybe I thought I was going to be a doctor. Part of that was because again, if we go back to my persona as being a high functioning human, I mean, I’ve I’ve incredibly high functioning high performing anxiety. So it seems amazing on the outside, but it’s all anxiety and shame driven. So as a little little kid, I remember telling people, I was going to be a doctor. And I think that’s purely because my mom was a nurse, and I was around medicine for a period of time. But then I got grades that would suggest I could do those things. And I was very academically talented. And so that was kind of pushed and pushed. So that was kind of the storyline I came into college with, it’s like, you’re going to be a doctor, I did make a decision that I wanted to do psychiatry, because I wanted to, and that was towards the end of my college experience. And looking back on it, I think a lot of it was tied to and I still think she’s still her prescriber. Now, I think he’s crap. And he’s renowned, he does great things. But I don’t think he’s held my mom accountable. And he pushes her, I think that her therapists don’t hold her accountable and push her. She is convenient, because she doesn’t cause any ripples and problems. So I think people let it be and they don’t push people sort of beyond that, at times. That’s not a fair blanket statement to make. Obviously, it’s coming a little bit from less of a professional hat and personal hat. But I remember thinking I wanted to be a psychiatrist because I wanted to change the way that people actually helps their patients. Because I didn’t like the idea of taking somebody that was a disturbance to society, because they’re using drugs or doing this, and then medicating them to the point that they’re just numb. And that to me was not good healthcare. And then it was a year or two later, I realized that I hated the idea of being a physician. The irony is I’m now married to a physician. And so I’ve walked through I’ve been with him since he before he started medical school. And I got to see the whole process. And I’m so grateful that I gave up that story. But it was a lot of grieving because it felt like again, go back to that resilience piece. Everybody thinks I can do it. What does it say about me? If I can’t do this, instead of what does it say about me if I choose something different. So there was a lot of kind of mental prisons that were built in this idea of look how good she can handle all this traumatic stuff that happens to her is then there’s it says something about me if I’m not the person that achieves at that level. And then it wasn’t until I didn’t go to school to get my Master’s until I was 25 or 26. And not a lot of time from college, but a few years after college, and that really came about after my cousin was killed, who’s the cousin I moved in with and lived with. And he was two weeks younger than me and we were best friends. And after he was killed and seeing and processing the loss of somebody so young, I had a lot of time to really think about what do I want to do in this world? In a way that’s not just about serving my ego and not just about serving my shame, and that’s where therapy kind of came to fruition for me.
Victoria Volk 29:30
So while people on the outside would have looked at you and thought how spectacular of a performer you were what was really going on, on the inside. I mean, I spoke to the anxiety piece a little bit but what what did that look like?
Kyira Wackett 29:45
Yeah, I mean, I think it started obviously middle school high school I described myself because I’ve moved so much as a kid. I knew how to be a chameleon I knew how to fit in. I mean I still know how to do that. So you know exact actly what to say to somebody, it’s, it takes a lot of work for me to come into less now, but I still have to come out of I don’t need to please somebody and perform in a way that elevates them, I can just be me. So that started to happen even before her relapses even before I left her. So that was a very lonely feeling. Because I was always performing to some degree, I always wanted to fit in with the right crowds, I knew how to say the right things. As I got older, you know, I remember in high school, I was never the one mad at my friends, it was always okay, if they were mad at me, I could handle that because I could do something about it. But I never got mad at anybody, because that could be a threat. And they might leave. I allowed a lot of people to do a lot of things that was not okay, in terms of the way they treated me. I had a lot of codependency pieces, I think that showed up as a result of that trauma. And I never talked about myself. I had, I had one friend that I was really honest about stuff with and the only reason I shared anything with her is for there was a period of time when my mom went to prison. So from sophomore year to senior year, whatever it was in high school, my family cut my mom off said she couldn’t write to me anymore, we couldn’t have a relationship. And I was not okay with that. And so I worked out a system with her dad, that my mom could write letters to her house. So I stayed in contact with my mom behind my family’s back. And we would write letters, and he would send out letters for me, and she would go to his house once or twice a week, her parents were divorced, and I would get my letters. And that was the only reason I let her in on anything was because I needed her. So I only let people in on the story if I needed them to serve a purpose. Otherwise, it was never safe to share anything. Because the story I had as people leave. So I think part of the performance was around, I need to be better than everybody in the room so that they need me, but I can never need anybody else. And, and I still struggle with that I still struggle to be like, Oh, I screwed up, I did it. Last week, I led an event and I made a choice. And it didn’t go as well for everybody as I wanted it to some people loved it seems like not for me. And I’m still holding on to that feedback, because it feels like my job is to be perfect for everybody at all times. And that’s safer. That is a much safer place to be in. And you know, I know we were talking about this a little bit offline, you kind of alluded it, alluded to it even in the beginning, but I do think that was where my eating disorder started to develop and take shape too. So it didn’t come out of any desire to control anything. Honestly, I hung out with mostly guys in high school, I had a few girlfriends, and they all had eating disorders in high school or very severe, disordered eating. I didn’t. And I was always the quote unquote, fat friend. But I was really funny. And I had all these other skills like, I knew sort of my role, but I didn’t think much of it. And I think because I always hung out with my guy friends, I identify as heterosexual, like I was always interested in men, I had a tension in a way that always felt like it filled the roles, I never thought much about my body, I knew it looked different than my friends. Like I remember, when we would go to volleyball practice, they would wear a sports bra on shorts, and I would wear my gym uniform, which was like, you know, if anyone had to wear gym uniforms, the worst fitting thing that it had my body because it’s different. But in college at that was right around the time when they started posting nutrition information. So I would eat like Wendy’s I’d get you know, takeout food with my friends, I do all that then I went to college and I’m buying my meals, I’m paying attention to these things. And I was on a program for students that were disadvantaged in some way I was got onto the program. So I didn’t have any parents, and or active parents was how it was deemed and I didn’t have any support. So what it was was basically a program to help you develop the skills to be financially emotionally physically independent. In all these ways. There’s tons of cool aspects of the program. From a financial standpoint, you’ve got a decreasing amount of money every year your tuition was funded. But every year you got less and less money to cover other things. You had to learn how to budget and then build up your work in a job setting to learn how to manage that. That sounds amazing. But yeah, it was wonderful. It was it was called the Fast Track program. I don’t know if they still do it at UW Madison. But it was amazing. But I think I became aware of things differently at that point. And when I stopped eating in that way, and I started walking to classes and doing those things, my body changed pretty dramatically. The reaction from everybody around me because now I’m not only the a student, I’m not only the one that can be hyper productive, that can do all the things but now suddenly, I have a very ideal body that everybody wanted. That was also around the time that sticks straight hair was going a little out of style and hair that had a little bit more texture was coming into play. And now I know I’m Middle Eastern, which is why I have the texture. But suddenly I was like my hair was the kind of hair people want. It’s like all these things. Were kind of working in my favor. And then I was seen I know There are things that I was given different opportunities. Because of my body size, I was given different opportunities because I was high achieving even, you know, we think about resiliency, I had a friend who had a very similar experience with his dad really struggled with substance use lots of trauma growing up lot of dynamics between him and his, his dad and his mom. And he developed in a very different way. He never struggled, I don’t think a ton. He did use substances, but he just he became the problematic kid. He was the troublemaker, he was the one that was processing his grief in a different way. And one day, I remember that we got into food fight at school in high school, and I started it, I was having a something that happened with my mom. And I remember, just like, I just was so angry. And he said something, and it pissed me off. And I picked up food, and I threw it at him. And it turned into a huge food fight like the movie scene, food fights. We both got sent to the office, he got an out of school suspension, and I basically got a slap on the wrist. And I remember speaking up and be like, This is not okay, this is not supposed to happen. And they’re like, Okay, well, then you can have a suspension too. And I was like, dammit, that’s not what I meant. What I meant was give us both the other one. But in reality, again, it was because I was seen as my quote unquote, resilience, my quote unquote coping was favorable to the system. So that I think all of my coping skills were what’s favorable to the system so that I can keep this performance up. And I’m sure I’m still doing it in some ways, even today that I’m not even aware of
Victoria Volk 36:31
I think that’s true. And so many aspects still in society that, you know, males don’t know what to do with that anger, right? Yeah, comes out in print, they projected out or they become substance users, right? Yeah. And females were more in touch with our emotions. So maybe we’re processing a little bit differently, but we’re probably good chance either, like you said, either high performing, or have that added anxiety or stress in our on our lives and in our bodies. And, or we express it, we which also can be anger, right? Or using substances. So that’s, I’ve asked this question before, but what do you think, is like the, the key difference in what, what is the descriptor? Do you think or like, what, I don’t know how I want to word this? I know, I’ve asked this before in different podcasts of like different experts, but it interests me, because how does one person take one path and another person, a different path?
Kyira Wackett 37:31
I think about that all the time. Because I think about, you know now raising, she just turned two. So now raising a two year old and thinking how many things are happening now that dominoes are going to fall in the future that I’m not even aware of? And is it as simple as one interaction with her sometimes I think I then get hypercritical I’m like, I can’t have any instances where the dominoes could deviate from the plan. And then sometimes it’s thinking like, would they have fallen anyways? Would I have been this kid? Either way? Would you know? Would my friend have struggled with those things in the same way? What I think is the similar thing, and I don’t think it’s fully answering your question. But I think it’s that when we experience these insecure attachments with our with our parents, figures, caregivers, whoever it is, there’s a loneliness that only somebody that’s experienced that can understand and relate to, you know, so you’re sitting on the other side of this talking about this parental vacation that you had to, you know, that type of loneliness when you don’t get the safety and security that only a caregiver can truly provide to us. And I think our brains just don’t know what to do with it. And sometimes I think, probably culturally, you know, so girls are conditioned to cry, to be sad to talk about their emotions are also conditioned to be nurturers and to take care of everything. So some of this is like what roles have we been indoctrinated with from the time we’re born? Because honestly, sometimes if I could have punched something, it probably would have felt more cathartic in the moment than going to take care of somebody else. But it was sort of this like system aligning with maybe, as soon as you find something that works a little bit, it’s, it’s just like a drug, it’s a hit. So every time somebody needed me every and it still feels that way, I have to decondition myself all the time, every time I get the positive feedback, I have to remind myself not to put too much weight on that. Because then when I get the negative feedback that then it crushes me, but it’s the hit every single time that all feel like, gosh, this really good thing is happening, this amazing thing is happening. I feel less lonely. And in his case, I think there’s a hit that his brain got every time that he would do X, Y or Z. But there was this weird sort of I had several people that I had friendships with over the course of my life that had trauma traumas similar to mine in different ways, of course, but there’s a weird familial bonding that happens in that I I remember being called by a drug dealer one time and I was really scared, I was working at an ice cream shop. And I was the like, manager or whatever you could be it, you know, 17, shift lead, something like that. But I was by myself, and I got a call from a drug dealer thinking I was my mom threatening me, I know, looking back at it, now there’s no way they would have known where I was, they wouldn’t been able to find me. But I was panicked, that something’s going to happen. And I called my friends the same verse I’m talking about. And he immediately called every single person, every drug dealer that he knew, every person that had power in that system that he knew, and they all came to my work and stayed there until I was done with my shift. And like, took care of me in some way. And so there was this weird way of like, I think both of us were just seeking a sense of connection and belonging, and safety and security, we just happen to find it in different ways. First, probably because of how we were conditioned, but also because of, again, that first hit and then you stick with it had I found something like that, I probably would have stuck with it. That’s why I think the highs that then came with the eating disorder, led more to, you know, almost, what 567, maybe almost eight years, almost eight years of an eating disorder, because of the hits of power that I would get in that too. Or even the hits when you’re sitting in front of the toilet. After you’ve just made yourself through up and you you somehow feel less lonely, even though it’s the loneliest feeling you could ever have. I know I didn’t answer your question. But that’s like the depth of where it’s kind of going in my brain.
Victoria Volk 41:30
No. And actually, what came to my mind too, is I kind of thought on the other side of this too, that cutting came up, in my mind, like cutting is a form of I could see if it wouldn’t be, you know, if it wouldn’t have been an eating disorder would have been something else, don’t you? Don’t you believe that?
Kyira Wackett 41:48
I mean, I think now it feels like that’s the only solution in some way. I mean, I think all of us are self soothing. I mean, I have a friend now who, for the first 15 She’s almost 40. So I honestly like the almost all of her adult life, every time something really traumatic would happen, she’d get a tattoo, which is a form of self harm. In the same way, it’s just a more socially acceptable form of self harm. my eating disorder like taking laxatives, restricting my food intake, making myself throw up like, nobody saw it. But it wasn’t again, like it was all entirely self harm. In some way. It was a shaming of my body eventually, again, initially it was it just happened to be that these things were adding up to my body changing but then it did become this like punishment system and reward system and my brain and body. And I think that’s what it is. And it’s the physical and physiological highs we can have from those experiences are so strong, you know, like somebody that does engage in other forms of self harm, whether it’s cutting, whether it’s burning, whether it’s picking, there is a chemical release in the brain that makes that so intense, that that’s why we stick to that it’s a different type of like, I will never get the same experience ever again, as I got when I would binge and then the immediate release, after I would go make myself throw up, I will never replicate that. Again, I don’t want to do it anymore. But there’s a high from that, that you can’t I can’t explain to anybody else. Even though the downfall was that I would feel more depressed, more lonely, more shame than I did before it happened.
Victoria Volk 43:22
But then society comes in and oh, you’re looking so good. And all the terming affirming what you’re doing.
Kyira Wackett 43:30
All the time. And it is now again, my commitment with raising, you know, at this point, we’re assuming, you know, she is will identify. However she identifies but raising her at least female at this point and trying to raise her with this neutrality about her body. You see it all the time, somebody commenting on her hair, somebody commenting on Oh, you’re such a good eater, or you did this and it’s like, how do we condition that out of the way we talk about things. And if I had had a disorder, an eating disorder, where it was purely binge, to sort of binge eating disorder, or something where my body was gaining a lot of weight, I would have been treated very different. But I still and now I never knew what my body’s natural size was because during trauma during childhood trauma, your body your weight is a factor that is affected by the trauma. So there are periods of time that my body held a lot of weight, and then periods of time that it didn’t. But now I see that my body’s natural frame is a smaller frame now that I’ve been in recovery for almost 10 years. But at the time, it was like this is the only way that the doors are going to stay open now because I I get it and I still now now have the privilege of even seeing my body being in recovery. Doors open and people treat you differently because of the culture that we exist in. And so I think that is that was the hardest part for me was seeing now guys want to take me out. Now. People want to do all this stuff for me now. I can go up and I can speak and I can present and the jokes people make and the way they talk about things, or the idealization of me as a person has increased exponentially, and it still happens, I wish I could look like you, I can’t believe you had a kid. And that’s your body. The reality being that is one of the most triggering things you can say to me, because I have had to spend 10 years of trying to tell myself that when and if my body changes over time, my body is not less valuable. And I as a person, I’m not a failure. But we condition that for people even without eating disorders, to believe that they have to be dieting, they have to be on a journey to weight loss at all points in time, unless their body is the ideal type in order to be accepted. And I think that is going back to the the whole essence of grieving that is one of the hardest things to grieve and recovery is, I’m always going to be having to choose to live a lifestyle that goes against the culture that we exist in. I agree, the culture is effed up, I agree. It’s not what I want to live in. But every day, it’s knowing that I’m going to knock off some energy right off the bat, because I don’t have the ability to think about those things in the same way. Or I’ll relapse, and I don’t you know, my mom’s silver from cocaine. And that’s amazing. And that’s a very different beast. My mom can function without cocaine, you can’t function without food or without your body. And I think that is one of the most painful sort of long term grieving processes, I think I’ll always go through no matter how far into recovery I am.
Victoria Volk 46:24
I do want to circle back to well, there’s three things I want to talk about. So I’m gonna say it out loud. So I don’t we don’t forget. But yeah, and your relationship with your mom now to finding love and choosing to have a child, you know, knowing the traumas that you went through. But three, what I’d like to talk about right now, because I think it’s a good segue is what can we change in our language, as parents, I have two teenage girls and the teenage son, all of which are slim, my oldest son, he’s going to be 17. And he’s very skinny. And now he’s like, now he’s got it. Like it’s bulking season, he’s gonna put on weight. And he’s got to be bigger, because otherwise he’s skin and bones. And people think well, don’t you feed? I’ve had people ask if I feed my kids protein? Mm hmm. What are some things that we can change in our language? As parents? Can you? Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll definitely send you a link.
Kyira Wackett 47:26
I just wrote a two part post on some of this, too, for people of, you know, what are some of the daily habits we can change? What are some of the conversation ways we can change my goal when I talk to anybody. And now because I’ve worked in eating disorder since I started my master’s program, and I’ve worked at all levels of care and with kids up through people in their 80s. And so one of the things that I really focus on with people is how do we develop a sense of food neutrality, body connectivity, I love the concept of body positivity. It’s also like somebody seeking positive self esteem, that’s not an attainable destination. We all have esteem, esteem towards the self. But that ebbs and flows, the goal is to spend most of our time in the neutral to neutrally positive zone. So what I really like to think about is for all of us, how do we, you know, for anyone that’s apparent, first, taking a look at what were you taught about bodies? What were you taught about food? What were you taught about what it means to be healthy? You know, all these things that many of us were taught either by our parents and caregivers, or by the world at large? And how do we let go of those things? How do we allow the possibility that we don’t have to, because we, as humans, we spend a lot of time here, trying to logic our way through and control everything. I mean, grief, everybody wants, these are the five phases, how long am I going to go through these phases? Exactly? What is that going to look like? And tell me this? Isn’t this one of the steps to get through it? That’s not how it works. But we want it to be that way. You know, how are we going to raise healthy kids? How are we going to raise kids that don’t have eating disorders? But also aren’t you no morbidly obese because we have an obesity epidemic? So we go up here too much that we sort of decondition ourselves to have that connection to our body. And so for parents who have really little littles, you know, it’s it’s starting with how do you help them trust the natural cues that their body is giving them? You know, some days, my two year old eats more than I do in a setting? And some days, she eats a couple of bites, and that’s all she needs? How do you find the balance in learning to trust that without over controlling or panicking a little bit as they get older? I think a lot of it has to do with starting to have some conversations about how they feel in their body. What is that like for them? So I’m just going to use your son because you mentioned that and a lot of people that identify as male it is it’s an out this sort of fixation on musculature, and in particular, these things. So we know, by five years old it is I forget what the stats are most recently, but it is an ugly number of kids that talk negatively about their body by five. By the time that they’re in middle school, it is dieting is already happening more so for biologically female girls, but we see it across all identities, all gender identities, when we see them kind of around puberty is it’s the onset of what’s your body doing. And so one of the things that I think is really helpful is just to talk about those changes and transitions and how that feels for them. What does that like for you as your body’s changing? And you know, for your son, it’s like, why I have to bulk up, I have to look like this. Otherwise, what’s wrong with me, I’m skin and bones as if that means something, you know, like, he’s less capable of functioning in the world in some way. Or you are somehow not a good parent, because that’s what they look like. And so I’m a big proponent of hard conversation. So I think just talking to them about it and being like, what does that like for you? When you hear somebody say that, or when you see these things? What does that feel like? What are the messages you’ve been told? And what are these ingrained ideas, especially because of social media, about what you’re supposed to look like? And what is it that your brain is assuming, will happen when you get there? Because I think a lot of it is, and this is the really hard reality, we can’t prevent this from happening. Again, go back to body connectivity, they’re all going to have bad body image, all of us do, the goal is to not get stuck there or to become dependent on behaviors that are about either trying to get out of it or punishing ourselves for it. So instead, just normalizing like, you’re gonna feel like crap in your body, sometimes more than others. And you are in a world where you have been getting messages from 70 to 1000s more entry points than I did, and I hate my body half the time. So really just normalizing that conversation, because I think the body connectivity piece that I like to focus on is how do we talk to them? Through this hard stuff to give them skills, tools, ways to navigate that, what would that be like to say, I could totally understand, you know, somebody said to me, because I remember, my grandma said to me, well, beauty is what’s on the inside, not what’s on the outside, things like that, what she knew which that was helpful. But we’re a visual and physical world. So yes, beauty is there. But also we treat people different. And even if you have visual impairments based on that physical experience of touch to and there’s a difference in what it means to touch and feel and see bodies in different sizes. So really thinking about, I can understand how suddenly you’re getting this attention that reinforces to you that now your body is better, because why would your brain not go there? And let’s talk about where that comes from. Let’s talk about these systems. Sometimes it’s easier to access it in relation to other topics like racism, or sexism, things like that, that people might feel are more accessible topics. And then you say, so what do we do with that? How do we help you through that? What we do know for kids overall, is that one of the things that we can do is to empower their choices, rather than dictate for them what to do and put a label on it. And really, this idea of can you adopt in this, it’s pretty polarizing in the eating disorder field. But the mindset that many have is the all foods fit idea. So there are certain things that I as a parent, won’t give my kid certain processed foods, things that are genetically modified in some way that like I couldn’t pronounce it, if I read it on the back of you know, a label, but also realizing that my kid knows what to do. If she has ice cream in her body, her body can handle that and break that down. Maybe I make a choice to get ice cream that’s locally made. And I know where the ingredients are things like that, but not labeling that food is good or bad. One of the other big things is not making food, a motion dependent. So this is hard for me even now she like she gave up her pacifiers like how can we celebrate? Let’s do this? And it’s like, no, no, how do you do something that’s not food related? You know, the like, when you’re potty training? Again, I’m using references only to my kids age, but like, how do you do it without treats? How do you not suggest that treats are associated with good behavior or treats are associated with a negative emotional state, for your son or for your daughters? How do you say your body is changing and evolving? And there might be a time that it’s not thinner like this? What would that feel like for you if it was different? What would it feel like for you if it’s this, like just opening that door and trying to as much as we can stay as neutral as we can about food to realize, in the course of my lifetime butter has been good, bad and everywhere in between? You know, over the course of my lifetime, sugar free was like the thing and now we know what it does for us. So realizing we only know what we know. And the only thing that we know to be truly true is that foods that we know where they come from and how they’re sourced tend to be better processed in the body because our body can do things with natural things that are different than, you know, genetically modified processed things. Again, I know I’m jumping but yeah, keep going.
Victoria Volk 55:09
No I love how you said food neutrality because I was actually listening to something just recently, I can’t remember maybe it was in a conversation, where we talked about this pursuit of happiness. And even if you’re not happy if we Yeah, neutralize our emotions, get like get into a state of equilibrium. Mm hmm. We wouldn’t feel like we need to pursue happiness, we would be happy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it’s like this embodiment, like you mentioned. Yeah, that and that word has come up a lot in the last few days in bonding. What if like an example, if there’s a picky child, picky, picky eater? Five, you know, that four or five, six age range? What do you say to that?
Kyira Wackett 55:55
Well, I think there’s a spectrum of, again, so there’s something called failure to thrive, which is a diagnosis that can happen if if a child is not getting adequate nutrition or their body is not able to maintain adequate nutrition and energy. And so they start to have a decline in their physical growth, cognitive development, things like that, is a pretty extreme, it does happen. A lot of times, though, kids go through a phase of picky eating, kids will go through a period of time where they don’t like things, they’re exploring different textures, they’re exploring different tastes, different temperatures, you know, whatever it might be. So one of the things I think is super helpful is nothing that bad can happen in a day, or a week, or a month, when it comes to that, like, if your kid is only eating these few things, but they’re at least taking something in nutritionally notice the pattern and the trend. And then if it continues to be a trend, and it’s starting to have an effect on their energy levels, their mood, that’s when we start talking to a provider, you know, and in particular, really think talking to a dietitian, who specializes in working with kids and kids that experience picky eating is helpful. But not everybody has that luxury. So even starting with a pediatrician and just be like, this is where we’re at. What are your thoughts? Because I think we have this thing that sort of blows up. I mean, I do this, I do this all the time, a day, she doesn’t eat very much, she doesn’t poop one day, or her moods really off, or She’s coughing just a little bit too much for my comfort, something must be happening, you know. And so we, we tend to, in particular, people that have experienced trauma or experienced, you know, high negatives, we write stories really quickly, that take us to that level. So maybe for a week, they’re like boycotting food. I remember one day she sat down, she was maybe like, 1516 months old, she would she refuse to touch a thing. She said, there’s like, No, thanks. No, thanks. I was like you little, so many words that I want to say out loud right now, but I won’t. And it was so hard to just be like, okay, okay, because in my mind, I’m like, she’s not gonna have enough food, and she’s gonna be hungry overnight. And what about this? What about that, like, she’ll be fine. She’ll be fine. For whatever reason she was doing that, I think at her case, a power struggle. And then like, a day later, it was fine. But I think really trying to pause in that moment and not getting reactive and saying this is data. Trends are where the concerns are not these like one off, you know, a week, whatever the case may be. One of the things I do think can be really helpful is to have conversations with kids about energy, and about what it’s like to give their body energy to do the things they want to do. So the other thing that starts to happen at the 456 marks, is their brains are excited about, you know, I remember at that age, like I didn’t want to stop to go to the bathroom. How many of us didn’t want to have to come inside to pee, we wanted to play with our friends, you know, we might be hungry, we might be starving. But I am not coming inside, like I want to play or I want to do this. So there’s so much distraction. And their brain is going through such a period of development to that it’s even just being able to think about the set and setting for these things that are happening. And again, just thinking about it as data collection saying hmm, all right. So this is what’s happening. How do I stay neutral about this? Because the reaction is then what reinforces there’s something good or bad about it? Now there’s a fixation on they’re not eating enough, or they’re eating too much? Or what about this and this food is bad or they need to eat this or whatever the case may be just notice it. And take take note of the trends. And then I think starting to find answers that respond to the trends and the shifts that seem more long term. Typically, most things with kids and I’ve worked again, with kids as low as five and six years old with eating disorders. Most things with kids will even out there will be some kids that that is the onset of developing some very extreme whether it’s avoidant restrictive food intake disorder, some other really severe picky eating things like that. But it doesn’t happen in a week. It doesn’t happen in you know, over the course of that it happens over those periods of time. And my default now is fine. I have providers that I trust, and they’ll tell me when I need to worry, I do a great job of writing stories to worry. But that’s not the most efficient use of my time. And what that will do for my daughter, as we go back to those dominoes, I am setting off dominoes for her in the future that will not lead to where we want to go. You know,
Victoria Volk 1:00:18
Thank you so much for that insight. Yeah, I think it’s important now circling back to when things changed for you, you know, after you know, your masters and, and things like that.
Kyira Wackett 1:00:28
So I had my eating disorder, up through starting my master’s program, I was in my recovery at that point. I remember a lot of lows in the course of my eating disorder. I do think so I’ve been with my husband since I was 22. And that was the first relationship. I remember it was very early in our relationship, like maybe a couple months and where he I said something to him about how great it was like that we needed each other and all this stuff. And he said, I don’t need you. And you don’t need me. I want to be with you. But I don’t need you. And I remember being like fu like this was this terrible thing. But again, codependent relationships and measurement and no healthy boundary setting that was ever modeled to me, it was so new. So early in my relationship early on, I think I was still trying to preserve a certain image with him. I remember having no opinions for a period of time about music preferences, or where we would go eat or things like that. And I would I would wear clothes to look a certain way that I thought was like the most attractive that I hated. You know, like, I hate dresses, hate skirts, I hate all of that it feels way too vulnerable. I don’t know how to sit with it. I don’t like it. But I would wear things like that. It’s like, oh, no, that’s this like, very feminine, attractive person. And, you know, I need to stay at this certain level of my body size, whatever it might be. So I remember going real deep in my eating disorder for a period of time. And he never I don’t I don’t understand like this is just an innate thing about who he is because he’s had to work through so much himself to but he’s never had a reaction about that. That wasn’t from a place of neutrality and love. And so, and I even remember at one point being like, my body’s changing when I started my recovery, and he’s like, I don’t see it. I’m like, I’m sorry, but I’m like, I’ve gained X amount of pounds. I’ve done this, like how do you not like you can’t still find me attractive, like, I don’t want to be naked in front of you. Like all these things. I don’t see any of this, like I don’t understand we’re reading different books. And, and so I think there was some healing that happened not because of him. But because of the active decision that came from being in a relationship with Him. That meant choosing to detach from a lot of codependent relationships I had been in previously, I had been in a relationship when I met him. And I knew when I left that relationship, I was going to lose all my friends that I had had from middle school in high school, they’re very close knit, everybody stays in the same town, nobody leaves their parents went to high school together, I knew that would be a betrayal of the story I was supposed to exist in and making that decision was so painful. But it was it needed to happen if I was ever going to get away from those things and, and a lot of other choices like that. And so I eventually got into recovery. I wish I could say it’s because I had an amazing therapist and treatment providers, but they I didn’t have the good fortune of finding them. I think that’s part of the other reason I decided to be a therapist and watch a psychiatrist was like, VA actually most of them kind of suck. And like I’ve learned now there’s more than a few that are good. But I still think a lot of them aren’t great. And that’s you know, whether it’s a coach, a therapist, or you know, whatever, there’s a lot of people doing this work that are not ready for it or aren’t the right fit for it. So when I got into my program, I remember thinking I don’t want to be one of the therapists I’ve seen that’s made it about them. That’s made it all about their story. And I really wanted to work in eating disorders because I felt like I wasn’t getting what I needed to heal. I wasn’t being seen. I remember one person found out I had had these like, in the inside of my mouth, like right in here. I had had they were called plugged mucus glands, which sounds so disgusting, but they were these like giant like Penny size blisters in your mouth, which is disgusting. And it was the last year before I left my mom because we were living in Berlin, Wisconsin, I’d have surgery on him because it was so bad to get rid of them because it couldn’t eat things. It couldn’t do anything. So she found out about this and she talked about some oral fixation, some Freudian BS and that’s probably why my eating disorder have developed and like also and I walked out in the middle of our first appointment. I was like, This is so stupid. I had one other person telling me I couldn’t exercise again which I am a firm believer in Exercise is something you need to talk about exercise was never a part of my eating disorder, even now, I love to exercise. When I’m like a salad, give me 15 minutes. And I’m good. Like I have never struggled on that side. But it was putting her story of her recovery onto me. And so I started my training and was like, I need to do several internships, you typically do one, over the course of your master’s program, I did one in general mental health and one as an eating disorder therapist so that I could get feedback from two different supervisors, I could see I don’t ever want to leave somebody worse off in an unhealthy way. Obviously, we know I’m sure you have that with people that you work with for like some sessions, they feel worse off than they started, but it’s helpful. But I didn’t want to hurt people because of blind spots that maybe I had. And so I learned over the course of my training, because of the other setting that I had that I couldn’t work with female, that column female offenders. I hate that term. But I couldn’t work with women that were incarcerated, that had kids, it was too close. That was too I still had too much grief. I still have anger. That’s a part of my grief that I’m working through. So I learned I couldn’t do that. But eating disorders. I was great at it. I could do it. I didn’t. I never. I’m sure there are times I’ve probably overstepped in terms of things. I’ve said we all do it. But it felt like I had come home to myself in a way that I didn’t need my ego to be seen. I just was able to show up for their people. And so and similarly now it’s why I specialize in anxiety and trauma is I found that I love working with the people that are like, No, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’ve got it all together. Look at this, look at how many more balls I can add to this pile, you think I can’t do it. Watch me. And then I like to just go up and swap the balls out metaphorically and be like now what? What do we do with that, and that is the correlation. What with what I’ve seen with a lot of the eating disorders that I work with are people’s stories and high functioning anxiety is they function very similarly, they become all about an achievement, comparison level living and now I’ve learned I can help people dismantle that I’m not completely through it myself. Again, I still do this all the time as a business owner, as a mom as a partner. But I am now able to see that that’s a process a lifelong process of disentangling. And I can show up for other people and just be the space to do that now.
Victoria Volk 1:07:29
Would you say that these are typically type A people?
Kyira Wackett 1:07:32
Um, yes absolutely. I know a lot of people now I’ve heard. I don’t know if this is a newer thing. I only recently have been reading that people don’t necessarily like to use the like type a type B type, whatever anymore. I still think it’s a system that helps people make sense of how they show up in the world. So yes, this the high functioning high performing perfection driven human. Most people that seek me out as a coach or a therapist that want to work with me. That is the experience of what they have. And it’s the I just can’t let anything fall. And what you know, I can’t let my eating disorder go, I can’t let this thing go. I can’t there’s such a fear and such a deeply rooted shame of believing there’s something inherently wrong with me. I am unlovable, I am unworthy. This is the only way I can achieve that. Please don’t take that from me. And then that becomes our path together is how do we grieve that feeling of false security that these things have given them? Make space to validate it, honor it, and then figure out how to let go of those systems that don’t serve them.
Victoria Volk 1:08:36
I love it. I think we could talk another I know. Where can people this has been amazing. So thank you so much. Where can people reach you if they’d like to check out your work and things?
Kyira Wackett 1:08:48
Yeah, so I will definitely send you those couple of posts I mentioned about the topics we hit on really, I think going to my website. So it’s adversityrising.com. The best way to kind of stay in touch with what I’m doing is to sign up for my email list. You can do that right from my website. I don’t do anything on social media anymore. I made a decision for myself, it was not serving me. So that’s really the place I focus is there and YouTube. So going to my website, they’ll find access to all of that I also answer every single email people send me. So if somebody has like, gosh, this really resonated or I want this, or do you have tools on these things? Or do you know anyone that does this? My biggest thing is we don’t know how to help people until they’re able to ask for it. And if I’ve helped somebody feel safe enough to ask me then please do it so I can be a part of your support journey.
Victoria Volk 1:09:38
Thank you so much. And I appreciate your time today. And thank you Ray. Yeah, I just yeah, I really love this conversation. So thank you for being my guest today. Absolutely. Thank you. And remember when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Death/Dying, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast |
Stephanie Cerins | Paving a Path to Happiness After Childhood Loss
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
We all have intuition. And we all have the power to tap into the intuition within us, too.
However, sometimes our intuition doesn’t feel good to us. As was the case the day that Stephanie’s father wasn’t coming home as was expected. She looked out the window, saw his car but didn’t see him and instinctively knew something wasn’t right.
At the age of 15, Stephanie found her father dead. The reminder was constantly there from that day forward, not only of his absence in her life but also the trauma of that day so close to home.
Life was a rollercoaster from then on, a life of partying, drinking, and working hard at burying that day in her psyche altogether. But as grief does, it spills out into all areas of our lives. Such was the case with her first two marriages, where she would see patterns repeating in her life and ultimately found the courage to seek help through Alcoholics Anonymous and get out of an abusive marriage.
After getting sober at the age of 24, her past began to resurface – and so did the memories she had long-buried.
You don’t get a course in life when you are born. – Stephanie Cerins
Isn’t that the truth?
We are all learning as we go. Through the trials, tribulations, and grief packed into it all – it is through life experience we grow in wisdom. And it is through the wisdom we glean from our lives that we can be of service to others. That is exactly what Stephanie has done in her life.
One of Stephanie’s greatest lessons in A.A. was that no matter how big of a mess you are, you can still help someone.
RESOURCES:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:55
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Stephanie Cerins. She is a happiness enhancer. Grief became her constant companion at the age of 15 when she found her hard working 39 year old father dying from alcoholism. Stephanie’s journey through grief was quite messy. At first, she turned to booze and drugs to cope with her grief until she found AAA affirmations and the ability to talk about her feelings. The affirmations you will read in her books come from her 42 year journey into grief, self love and her acceptance of the impermanence of life. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your story.
Stephanie Cerins 1:36
You’re welcome. It’s my pleasure, I feel blessed to be able to share my message of, you know, we’re all going to die. But maybe we don’t have to be stuck in it in all the grief for so long as I was in so if I could help shorten someone’s grief by even a day or a year, or I don’t know, I feel like I mean, my dad died when I was 15. And I never had a conscious memory of it till I was 29. Again, after you know, it was really stressful time. So
Victoria Volk 2:05
Can you go explain that a little bit more deeply? The conscious awareness of that?
Stephanie Cerins 2:11
Yeah, well, it was like my subconscious had shut out that I had even had that experience. Like I didn’t have a memory of it, or anything that I had found my dad until after I went through a and sobered up, it was just like my brain had blocked that memory because I didn’t couldn’t handle it. I guess. Like, we couldn’t talk about my father dying like me, and my mom would just cry. So we just, you know, and they told me, you know, my mom’s friends, I remember them telling her to take us to counseling, but it was 1980. So people didn’t go to counseling, then. Because then you had something wrong with your brain. And oh my gosh, that’s just too humiliating. So we just got to muddle through on our own. And then when I quit drinking at 24, that really helped me to be able to talk about my feelings, and just realize that, wow, everybody’s a big mess, like, because we all go around just pretending everything’s good. And how are you today? Oh, fine, I’m doing good. How are you? And all these, you know, just on the surface conversations, in so many people had with me, right that until I went, Hey, I didn’t know that he will. So many people are suffering and that a lot of people had it way worse off than me. And that just helped me put my life in a bit of more perspective that like that old Buddhist story and take a cup, if you have a grief, take your cup and fill an Esper some butter to anybody that didn’t have any grief, right? And you pretty soon learn that everybody has grief and that everybody has a hard life. And that, you know, the sooner we can see that and just come together and support each other, the better life will be. And so that’s my goal is to just try to be supportive to my friends and family and clients and in my reflexology and Reiki and happiness enhancing affair that I’m trying to get everyone to, you know, take that life a little lighter. Right? We’re also serious about things and stuff. And so how can we be more gentle and not worry about it so much? Everything
Victoria Volk 4:27
Well and share the burden, right? It’s yeah, carrying the burden. And I think to what I’ve connected, what I’ve connected and the work that I do with clients and Reiki and grief work and all of that, too is is that those that have an openness to healing into their own embracing their own story, are much able to connect with others more deeply. And because they’ve probably connected with themselves in a way that has brought them some lightness right and So, if we open ourselves to that process, beautiful things really can come from it. And so what did that look like for you? I mean, because your father had he was an alcoholic. Right? Yeah. So was that pretty much all of your upbringing? That’s all you really knew.
Stephanie Cerins 5:22
Yeah, he was he was a functional alcoholic. Right. So he went to work, and then he drank, but, and so yeah, that was what I saw. And experienced because he was drunk my whole, you know, it got worse. But you know, he was always partying with his friends and playing pool and everybody had a pool table and a game room. And, you know, that’s how we went over to everybody’s house and took turns and had drinkin parties, right. So, you know, all of my parents friends had a shorter lifespan than their parents. Right? Like, my mom’s dad. I mean, my mom, my dad’s mom was 74. And my mom’s parents were into the 80s and 90s when they went and my mom had terrible rheumatoid arthritis because she was x rayed for acne in the 50s. For six months, two or three times a week, they baked my mom under an x ray machine called the treat master to heal her acne like, come on. So anyway, her mom should just quit making them sweetie things. Wow. So yeah, so it was really, my parents weren’t very happy. And like, my mom never felt very well. She used to wake up even in her 30s and say, I feel like grandma pity poo. Right. And so when I grew up, after my dad died and stuff, I just wanted to be happy. It’s like, we have a house and dirt bikes and horses and stuff. And but nobody has any happiness, right? How do I get happy? And so I just started reading self help books and figure trying to figure it out on my own right?
Victoria Volk 7:04
What age was that when you started reading the self help books.
Stephanie Cerins 7:08
It was actually before my dad died. My first one, I have my friend, this is my favorite one working with the law. And it’s about God’s law. And I bought a whole bunch of them. So this is one of my last ones that’s brand new. But I’ve probably read this book about five times. And then it’s somewhere it says, you could manage your mind or your mind will manage you. And I thought, well, I want to be the boss of my mind. Well, little did I know how hard that would be some days, right? That, you know, and to just take responsibility for my emotions and my thoughts and train my brain what I wanted to think instead of just thinking it gets to think whatever it wants.
Victoria Volk 7:51
So I mean, first of all, I think to have that awareness at 15 Hate, like, how do I find happiness? I just, you know, and to have that. It’s like, all this stuff is around you. I should be happy. Why am I not happy? Right? So like, what? I mean, gosh, if I had that awareness at 15 I mean, if only all of us would, right? But what I mean, I don’t even know where to go from here.
Stephanie Cerins 8:20
I think it’s because my family had enough money, right? My mom’s parents were quite well off. I mean, not like rich, rich, but my grandpa had his own Karla. And then my grandma invested the money in stocks and all that. And so. So I mean, in my grandma’s house, the golden rule, literally on a plaque up in the kitchen. The golden rule said the one with the gold makes the rules and my grandma had the gold and she made the rules, right. And so I think because we had enough money, there wasn’t that wasn’t a problem, but it was just no happiness. Right? My dad, I don’t I think my dad didn’t like his job. And so that’s why he drank and then all his friends, their wives worked, but he had to be the only worker. And then my mom even needed a housekeeper even though she didn’t even do anything. Right. So I mean, I cannot my wife I can’t even clean the house and she doesn’t even work. I know, you know, I can only imagine right now that I’m an adult. Right. And so, but of course, I didn’t understand all that then. Right. And so, so just the grieving you know, I was like daddy’s little girl, and we did everything together and went fishing and had fun and then when he left I was like, Well, why am I here with mom? Why didn’t you take me with you? Oh my gosh, right. And so I was just so distraught and and it’s like, you know, I’m just gonna die. Well, what is the point of this whole thing you’re just gonna die like this is sign a pointless this life thing isn’t. And so I really had to find a whole reason to live in everything because I was so confused at 15 that I didn’t even you know, I fantasize lots of times, just driving up and rode, right? Because I just didn’t get what was supposed to happen next, right. And so now what I’ve kind of learned is all that happened so I can help other people grieve like my friend Julie, love to my dad married a man like my dad. And her husband died, like almost exactly the same. Like, she had four kids, but and her oldest one was like 16 or so. And the youngest one was six or seven, just like me, you know, really close to me. And my brothers ain’t right. He was eight years younger than me. And so to you know, and now I’ve been able to help her family through she has a son that’s having terrible, terrible times. And through his life, I’ve gotten down and helped and stuff. Because I just understand the grief that that that he’s going through that, you know, she never took the kids to counseling either when the dad died and all the grief, right, even though it was 20 years later.
Victoria Volk 10:56
Yeah, I was gonna thank you for bringing that up again, because I did want to circle back to that, you know, even you said, 1980, not much has changed. I think in a lot of ways, I think with COVID. That’s really, I’m hoping that we don’t take five steps back 10 steps back once, maybe life seems to feel more settled and secure with COVID. Moving forward, I hope we don’t take steps back in terms of mental health and in addressing that, and the needs of kids and everything. But, you know, my dad was, I was eight when my dad passed away. And so I grew up with grief, too. And, you know, so that was an emulated, obviously, for you like how to grieve, right? Like you didn’t know what to do or how to process and things and it sounds like you didn’t have that kind of relationship with your mom either. Is that accurate?
Stephanie Cerins 11:50
Oh, yeah. Me and my mom were very. Yeah, if my mom told me to do something, I went and I would do it the opposite way. Like we didn’t. Because there was a you know, because she was jealous. I mean, she was even jealous that I got boobs, right? Well, I thought, well, your dad didn’t sit you on the lap and look at playboy. I sat in my lap with my dad, and he probably looked at Playboy magazine. So I knew you had to have boobs if you’re going to be a girl, or nobody would like you know, I prayed for boobs when I was five mom. Oh, wow. There, it’s just so interesting growing up. And, you know, there’s so much we could have been taught in school that you know, about psychology and cell personal growth and stuff that we just leave out of school, I don’t know where they think we’re gonna learn at church or at home or,
Victoria Volk 12:38
Well, NASA thing you know, I, I personally feel like it is the responsibility of a parent, to guide your children through all of those things. But when you haven’t learned it yourself, you’re going to resort to what you know, and those patterns and those beliefs are going to be passed down. Yeah, no doubt about it. So that’s why I, you know, we in Grief Recovery, we have a program that’s helping children with loss, that’s prevention. But truthfully, like, I look at it, like the most important grief that needs to be addressed in a home with children is the grief of the parents. Because if they can learn to process their grief, they will teach their children and guide their children through that process naturally. And holistically.
Stephanie Cerins 13:22
Yes, totally. Yeah. But for so long in our culture, it was just suck it up buttercup, right. And now we’ve almost gone the other way that we’re exploring emotions at nauseam sometimes a little too much, I think, right? It’s like we have to have balanced even with our emotions, because we get to buried in them just going down the rabbit hole, well, then we’re stuck there. We had to find a way to, you know, to have it in the background, but be able to move forward even though those experiences were hard or whatever, right.
Victoria Volk 13:53
I think of two terms like coping, and like you said, like a balance. And it’s finding that emotional regulating, you know, for yourself, rather than trying to cope, and it’s learning to regulate yourself there. You know, in parenthood, it’s challenging anyway, it brings up everything and all your insecurities. It is challenging to regulate your emotions. But again, I think it comes back to addressing your insecurities as a parent has ripple effects for the kids. Totally does. And so growing up for you, you started to read personal development books and started to kind of pave your own path to healing. What did that look like for you? Because I know you said you did. You went to AAA and things like that. But what was life like before you got to that point? In because you said you had resorted to drinking was that as a teenager too?
Stephanie Cerins 14:50
Oh, yeah, I started drinking. Yeah, as well. As soon as I got at 15 and a half. I was already starting to drive right pretty much after my dad passed away and I’d already been riding motorcycles and stuff before that. So I knew that how to drive right. And so, and then I just started drinking and partying and I got myself my first boyfriend was 21 when I was 16. So he could buy the booze, right? And so that was very convenient. And, and then, once I graduated school, you know, I just did whatever I wanted, right? My mom would take my car away. And because I was misbehaving, and then I would be good Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I’d sleep in, she’d have to give me the car. So I could go to school. Right? So My poor mom, right? I just did whatever I wanted. And she really, you know, I went from being busy, angelic child to, you know, listening to ACDC on the highway to hell, right. You know, it was quite shocking for my mom and, and my whole family, the transformation that I went through, right, and my, even my schoolwork, right, I was almost a student to just barely graduating, you know, failing classes and all kinds of stuff, right? And so, just because I had so much pain I didn’t understand and no one could get. No one was even trying to help me understand, right? I was just having to figure it out on my own. That how can I this this whole point of this life thing? Like, I gotta go through all this, and I’m just gonna die. And it’s like, oh, yeah, right. This This was really, I was totally in shock, right? Like, because my dad just he. He came home from the framework. And he had crashed his car, but and just right out in front of our house. So when I got up in the morning and looked at the main house window, I could see my dad’s car was up the road instead of like, put it in the garage. And so not that I could have seen it in the garage, right? I just shouldn’t have seen my dad’s car. So of course, I just go running out there. And then he was laying in the road. Dying, right? Like, he died on the way to the hospital. Some man was coming back to like, when I was coming up to my dad, and another guy was coming back. And he had already somehow seen my dad went home, called the ambulance, and then was coming back to check on them or something. Right. And then, so I just ran and told my mom, right, and then so, and I already knew when my mom came into the driveway of the neighbor’s house, I said, Oh, my dad’s dead. I says, What do you do, you know, in my own brain, like with your kid brain? And I’m like, Well, how can you know that? Now they’re back to early. He’s dead. Right? So somehow I knew. Right? And, and not that that helped me. But you know, and I just remember thinking, well, now we don’t have to worry if my dad’s coming home anymore, because he’s just not going to come home. Right? Because my mom would sit at that. looking out that window that I saw the car being wrecked, Dad wins to him coming home when you know, because he workship work at a pulp mill seven days a day shift two days off seven days and swing shift two days out seven days a graveyard four days up. So the times he came home was always switching around. Right?
Victoria Volk 17:59
Well, that’s incredibly taxing on the body alone. And so, you know, did he have a lot of grief himself? Do you think and I know you had mentioned that part of his drinking was possibly due to like just the relationship that he had with your mom. But and we’re not to analyze your father’s grief here. But I want to connect the dots of how this cyclical pattern repeats. And so what was his experience growing up? Do you think that?
Stephanie Cerins 18:33
Yeah, I don’t think that I think my dad got a girl pregnant and had to marry her and felt very trapped by his life. And I don’t think that he enjoyed his job very much at the pulp mill, even though he did it for 18 years, right. I mean, he made the best of it. And he was a hard worker, and he would go help his friends build their houses or whatever, you know, if you gave him a beer, he would do anything. And you know, he was jolly and happy and you know, always the life of the party. Right. And, but and in his group, I think he had a lot, right. I mean, his I’m sure his parents weren’t emotionally intelligent. I’m remember his mom being quite strict and harsh. And, you know, grandmas Sorenson only had sex once a week, once a month, whether grandpa needed it or not. That was the subtle, right. So I think from a very strict but I mean, before the pill. Yeah, I mean, you don’t want to be having sex all the time. You’re gonna be having babies all the time. Nobody can afford that. Right. And so I think there’s, you know, I think our families have been so traumatized and stuff by wars and everything in just their you know, there wasn’t anything about emotional growth, right? It’s just like you are how you are and that’s just how you are and, you know, whereas didn’t have to be like that. You can have emotional growth and you can change your life and you can go, you don’t have to be stuck in the same class or system. them or whatever, if you work on yourself, right? You know, and you don’t get caught up in all the sadness, right? Because it’s how we feel creates our life. So if we feel like bad and sad, then we’re just going to create more sadness. We have to, even if I like, in my marriage, my last marriage, my ex husband used to slap me around. And I would say, Oh, well, thank you for that. Because I got to learn something, not to be mad at quiet happened, right? Because the person who taught me reflexology and where I got that book working with the law, my mom’s reflexologist, he let me know that you have to be thankful for everything, if you want to have a good life, because that’s how you stay in the vibe of abundance. By not That’s why it says Have faith in the Bible and all that right, like, because you don’t worry about what’s going on in real life. You keep the faith. And then that’s how it turns out good, right. And so I that’s just what I’ve been trying to dedicate my life to is just keeping the faith no matter what life looks like now, it always like just what has happened in the world, people are all worried I’m not worried because it always turns out the best for me, but Right. So I’m not going to worry because I’m going to be in the right place at the right time. Right. And I think if we could all think that more than that, the hard parts are easier. So that I don’t have hard things to go through or whatever anymore, but it’s just that I’m at peace with it. And it’s okay. I don’t I remember when I read the road less traveled in the first sentence was, life is hard. That made me feel so good. Like, oh, life was hard. Oh, well, then. Okay. I could do all right. It’s not like it was just hard for me. It was just hard period. Right. And so, you know, I cannot not be so worried about it. I think that’s what a I learned in a that. Gosh, you know, my parents were pretty good. Really, compared to some of the parents out there. Like they didn’t even feed their kids, right. Like, they beat their kids. Right? I didn’t get beaten. I didn’t I had food. Right. I had a grandmother that took me to the fanciest children’s Booderee and bought me the best shoes once a year. Right. So Right. So I had a lot of advantages a lot of people didn’t have even though, I still was just a blue collar family.
Victoria Volk 22:17
I resonate and a lot of what you said in I think there’s some people listening that might think that Well, that’s really a Pollyanna approach. You know, like, have you been told that like, how I don’t worry about anything, nothing is worth worrying over. And worry i I’ve I’ve read to that worries, a prayer you never asked for, like it’s, but some might view that mentality as Pollyanna. But for me, I would always try to find the silver lining, like the well at least this didn’t happen, or at least I have this, you know. So it’s it’s kind of taking the situation and just and reframing it like I became a master at reframing because I think I would have succumbed to my own grief. Had I not learned the power of reframing.
Stephanie Cerins 23:07
Yes, I think you said it very well. I think that’s exactly where I was. I was just so overcome by everything that because my mom wasn’t well, right. So and we had horses and stuff. And we had board horses that I took care of. And there was lot right like, my friend Julie told me once I can’t believe how much you had to do. I thought it was so your parents were so mean, because you had to do all this stuff. My never thought that I love the animals. I love taking care of them. I wanted to have a farm, that I was Laura Ingalls Wilder reincarnated.
Victoria Volk 23:39
I love that show. Little House on the Prairie. Yeah, I love that show. And I think just having something to nurture, right, something else to take care of. And I, you know, I’ve heard too, like I’ve read in grief. And I know that with grief, the fastest way to get out of your own sorrow is to help someone else or something else, like turn that take that love with nowhere to go right? And put it into something else and you put it into your animals. And so have you ever I mean, I imagine you have but I’m sure you’ve reflected on that time. And those animals are probably the blessing in disguise that you had. I was I was trying I didn’t live on a farm. We lived in town. And I’ve I always wanted to live on a farm. But I would always I was the kid that always brought stray animals home. You know, I just it’s because to like I had this love with nowhere to go like I didn’t know what to do with it because in a lot of ways it was rejected in my house and it wasn’t emulated for me. And I think that’s so important to have somewhere for that love to go
Stephanie Cerins 24:48
Yeah know for sure. I was very lucky to have the horses as my friends and the dogs and you know, all the animals that I got to attend and stuff. It was very healing for me. And it I mean it did Even teaches you about life and death. I mean, a friend of ours had some goats I was going into go for Ah, I got a couple of goats. Some cat came in, got it my goats and they both were dead, right? I mean, you know, large lots of death on the farm right. And, you know, my dad wanted to raise cows. So we went and got nine, three day old baby calves. So then I had three babies, nine baby calves repeat Well, we didn’t know nothing about it. And luckily four of them lived somehow five of them died, right. I mean, I think that was good that I learned that but it’s even though I had experienced, you know, previous steps, some grandparents are different things that still didn’t prepare me. For a out of order death when your parent dies so young, or if you have a child that dies, that’s another kind of an out of order death. That’s like, there’s not even a word for it, right? They save when you lose your kid, right? So
Victoria Volk 25:51
So how did growing up with grief shaped your life in adulthood?
Stephanie Cerins 25:56
I think it helped me to, to enjoy my life more to really understand that. It that I do have an effect of my life because I was able to cope with the grief, right? Like I overcame it and dealt with it. And even if it took years and years, and it’s helped me to make peace with death. So I think death is my friend now. And I’m not scared of it. And you know, I’ve even been thinking about becoming a death doula or something like that right? To help people to be able to cope. And to help even make fun arose, right? Like, I reached out to a group that does a grief subscription to help people. And they wanted someone to help write about to people to cheer him up about grief, and they wanted you to have a degree and stuff and I don’t have a degree, but I thought I’d apply anyway, right and see what happens. And so I might get to write for their paper, right? And so just to be able to, to reach out in different ways to be able to connect in help people understand that there’s, we’re going to have grief, and to not, you know, be so hung up on I mean, we’re all gonna die and to be able to just have a good cry, and then be okay, right and move forward, right to not just be stuck like I was for so long, and I read and just like, I can’t even believe that my dad, I didn’t Oh, my God. And that’s not right. And just I was just so spinning and spinning and spinning, right. And to be able to come out of that and move forward in my life. And to not worry about death anymore. I know I’m gonna die. And I hope it’s sometime in the future. But if it’s not, oh, well, and I think it even helps me deal with all this mess of the Coronavirus, right and everything because it’s like, I not worried about it. I’m gonna be healthy until I’m not. And if I’m not, oh, well, then probably there’ll be someone to help me because I try to be helpful, right? And I don’t, you know, don’t worry about things because it just causes more stress. And then you get more wrinkles with wrinkles, and we pay 1000s of dollars on creams and stuff. My palm died. Oh my gosh, there was so much anti aging creams and soaps. I gave out swag bags, practically I had all these little baskets of stuff for people to take and remember my mom and you know, and so when my mom died just a few years ago, it was so easy. Because my dad had died. It was so traumatic, right? And so even though it was hard and achy. Now, it’s like I can’t say it’s nothing when people I love die, but it’s certainly the worst one I’m sure happened already. Right, because it was so traumatic.
Victoria Volk 28:36
Well, I’m because the relationship was different. Right? Yeah. I mean, every loss is going to be different because the relationship is unique.
Stephanie Cerins 28:44
Yeah, that’s for sure. Yeah. I didn’t think of it like that before. But yeah, for sure.
Victoria Volk 28:49
How did you know people will say to or, I don’t know, they say I don’t know who they is. But you tend to marry your parents. You know, you tend to look for someone or marry someone like your parents. Did you find yourself as an adult? Like attracting someone like your father to you? Or had you come so far in your healing? That it was very different? It was a different experience?
Stephanie Cerins 29:18
Yeah, no, I didn’t really marry people like my dad. So much. I didn’t marry any womanizing, man. But I think that but I married my other own kind of weirdness man right and because this is my third marriage, and this marriage is I’m I’m coming into the 18th year so I think we’re doing pretty good. And but yeah, my other marriages were very I was just so I just felt so alone and lonesome and I couldn’t stand to be alone. And I this, I just wanted anybody to like me, right. And then as I aged and progressed, it was like, No, I mean, I remember sitting in a wine bar and one lady was like, as I get oh, Although I get less pickier than I thought as I get older, I’m way more pickier. It’s like, I’d rather be alone than put up with what, you know, I’ve put up with something. Right. So it’s just more I think it’s been just helpful to, to be able to know really listen to what I want. And like I was committed to not having children, like I didn’t want kids. And you know, when I turned them in a pose a few years ago, I was like, Shit, I did it. I didn’t have any kids. I kept that word to myself. Right. And, and that meant a lot to me that I did that. And so because just I felt like I needed to reraise myself, How can I trust some guy to be there? The whole time. My ex husband didn’t want to have children. My first husband wanted to have children. But I was just like, you know, you tell me you have two children and I haven’t met them. So I think they’re not really dad material like not, right. And so my first husband was a partier in a drunk. And so he was maybe but not, but he wasn’t hard working or anything good like.
Victoria Volk 31:05
That the quality of looking for alcohol to serve the self is was similar to your father then?
Stephanie Cerins 31:12
Oh, yeah, it was terrible. Well, especially for me too. I’ve even thought now if if my dad was killed by alcohol, right, and his proclivity to drink. And I had always thought, well, what if an assassin had killed my dad? I wouldn’t have dated the assassin but I did sort of date, right? Like because I drink so much like, I was in a when I was 24. I got a DUI when I was 21. You know, so I drank you know, I drank and drove off. Drive blackout. Right. Get home. Don’t know how, right lots of times. But I would tell my dad when I was struggling, he’s dead right out. You had to get me home. Right. And I guess he did. Because theory I’m still right. When a lot of times when you know, I just thought you know, I don’t know how I got there.
Victoria Volk 32:00
So how old were you with that first marriage?
Stephanie Cerins 32:02
I got married the first time 21
Victoria Volk 32:05
Like very new and your grief yet? Like that’s not very far out from your grief and you hadn’t addressed it by then really? Have you? Had you?
Stephanie Cerins 32:12
Oh, no, no, I had I didn’t even start address even when I went okay, I wasn’t really starting to address my grief. Till I was in my second marriage. My ex husband really helped me. He had worked on himself a lot. And I learned more about self help books. And even more salesmanship books, and just personal growth. So many different kinds. Right? That’s when I really started reading. And I also, I worked at a private college and so I cleaned the bookstore. So I was open to a lot of college psychology books and different books that I could buy, just you know, the bookstore will sell you a college book, even if you’re not in the college. Right. And so I bought a lot of books that helped me to, to understand grief and grieving and personal development and all that stuff.
Victoria Volk 33:01
To understand yourself. Yeah. And myself.
Stephanie Cerins 33:05
Yeah, exactly. Because I didn’t have any understanding of what I you know, why was I so upset and everything else. And so the grieving that I had that was so hard, I feel very relieved that I did it. And you know, that any helped me know me, and hopefully I can help others. Right. That’s what I learned in AAA to, no matter how big of a mess you are, you could still help someone. We’re all here to help.
Victoria Volk 33:28
You had mentioned that your second husband was abusive in some ways. Yeah. So if he was working on himself was it. I mean, his journey was his journey. But obviously, that was more grief for you.
Stephanie Cerins 33:42
I guess, when I met my husband, I never had had a climax in sex. And so I had been trying to find a man who helped me with that. And he helped me with that. And that was such a relief that I thought maybe I could help him to stop hitting people, too, by loving Him enough and giving him what I thought he needed, right. But all I learned in that relationship is people are just going to be who they are in. I’m not in the people fixing business anymore. And by the end of it, I just told God cheese, I’m not a very good person. Because by the end of that marriage, I could remember laying there like fantasizing or imagining or whatever you want to call it ending him because he hit me so many times right or slept in that it wasn’t me that he would hit anybody. And so that helped me to forgive him and to be able to move on because I realized by me staying there, he couldn’t control himself, then I was actually harming him by continuing to stay there. And so that’s how I was finally able to leave because he had so much grief and there was so much someone put him in the dryer and turned it on when he was sick. Can you imagine like he was so abused? They his family had so much physical abuse, right and so everybody hit everybody and his brothers and sisters were failing stuff like his sister moved into an apartment. She lived there two years, she hadn’t unpacked a box, there was boxes stacked everywhere in the house. Like, there’s just ramping dysfunctionality, right. And so just to, we just were dysfunctional together. And we helped each other as much as we could. And then when I realized, Oh, this isn’t working for me, I just slept in, started, I went to a battered women’s shelter and started over. And just, I even gave him the car and everything, I wanted him to just go away. Right. And so he left and it was my car. And, and I knew that I would get a new car, and I did I got another old beater. That didn’t cost very much and it worked. Okay, and, you know, just keep on moving forward and don’t get stuck if something bad happens, right? Or if you make a mistake, oh, well, this, I’m just undo it right. So I left and started over. And you know, my first this is my first my first book was healing my heart after domestic abuse, and just affirmations. And then I and then my next one that just came out I did in November last year. It’s the same principles, just affirmations and just to try to help women or men whoever, to be able to get out of their grief and their or their abuse and to realize how important our thoughts really are and what we think and what we feel. And it’s not just like feeling sorry for yourself, or worrying or being upset, it’s just that’s really is the problem is that we can’t quit obsessively thinking about what happened, because it’s just what happened. And if we don’t have to get hung up on it, then we can move through life better. And it’s easier. Because I was hung up on my dad’s death from 15 to 29. I mean, I blocked it out, and I didn’t think couldn’t remember it. And that’s how I messed up, I was friendly. And then when I could remember it, then I could start healing and it’s coming out of myself and just, you know, have dreams about it again, and let and let it release from myself and move forward. And like make friends with it.
Victoria Volk 37:11
I just want to highlight one thing you said because I’ve never heard a reframing of that sort when someone has abused you and you’ve reconciled it in your mind in the way that I’m not helping him by staying here. I’m not helping him grow by staying here. And you’re, you know, to, to how to so hard like to take in like in Grief Recovery, we say take 1% responsibility. And that’s why the process of Grief Recovery can be so difficult for people who are abused. You know, I was molested as a child also. And so that was a really difficult part. That’s why forgiveness is so hard for people. But forgiveness isn’t for them. It’s for you. But I think a part of that is just what you said it’s just taking just a sliver of responsibility of your ownership in that relationship because it is a relationship and a dance with grief when two dysfunctional people bring their all their baggage and they just dumped their luggage and it’s all just meshed together. Right? That’s That’s how relationships often start. And you attract. Like attracts like, right? And so I do want to get to where that changed for you because the relationship obviously once you started to let that grief come out, you attracted someone who who has now been your partner for 18 years. And so what did that look like? What helped you I mean, I know you did a but what then what helped you progress in your evolve your grief?
Stephanie Cerins 38:51
I think after my dad died, I was just so scared of being alone. Right that I would do anything to not be alone have roommates, whatever, right? To never live alone, never be alone. And then like my ex husband, we did everything together. We cleaned houses together, we rode motorcycles together, he even came into the public bathroom with me eventually, you know, like, because I was so scared to be alone and make my own choices. I picked controlling people to make my choices for me, then I don’t have to be responsible and whatever happened or whatever happens, right? And so then when, during that marriage with Jeffrey i He was a salesman, right and he sold me for years. So but I learned he helped me understand psychology and people. And so really I got over my fear of being alone during that time and I just felt more confident around people. And just by reading all those self help books and in that marriage that you know everybody’s a mess. And that life is hard and that you know, everybody’s scared. In the whole world, and so by realizing that I’m not the only scared one, if someone lashes out, or does something that makes me uncomfortable, I really kind of know now it’s really coming from them, it’s I’m triggering something inside of them. Like someone triggers something inside of me and I get upset sometimes to write, I try not to, but on occasion, I still have a screamingly new bed. And I try not to, but you know, we’re all only human. And if we can be more gentle with each other and not take it, you know, someone has a meltdown. And then the other person takes it so serious that they, they get their feelings hurt, and then they lash out to the next person. And if we can just stop that repeating lashing out and realize, oh, that person just insulted me because they’re hurting. I mean, in it at 711, they show you a video where a guy and his wife have a bite in the car, and the guy comes in the store, and He’s so rude to you as checker, right? To show you to not be triggered, right? That, Oh, this guy’s not mad at you. He just, and really, that helped me in life to that little psychological movie to have that. Wow, it’s really, you know, my dad was really frustrated in his life. So that’s why he held me down and tickled me and did things to me that made me uncomfortable, because he was uncomfortable. So if I can deal with my own uncomfortableness, and not pass it on to someone, then that makes me feel like I’m, I’m helping in that part of what I’ve lived through, is helping that I’m not you know, dumping my poop downstream. Right? I dealt with it myself with me and God and talked it out with friends that are trustworthy. And, and because we’ve learned to share. I mean, that’s what’s been so hard about this COVID, we’ve been so separated from everyone, and we need to be able to talk and communicate and connect, because that’s how we realize, Oh, I’m not such a mess. You have problems too. Right. But in our society, I think we don’t want to talk about that. And I mean, you know, we are all everybody’s just puts on what is cool going on in their lives and talks about that. Meanwhile, you know, they just got kicked in the head last night, like I did, but they didn’t tell and I didn’t tell right? And if we can just realize that everybody’s going through stuff into, you know, to try and if they do something to us, oh, well, maybe, you know, someone was mean to them, and it didn’t have nothing to do with me. You know, because our parents are broken when they have us because, you know, we’re and then, you know, that’s why I didn’t make any kids because I didn’t want to break anybody. I thought I could always adopt if I needed some there’s plenty of people around,
Victoria Volk 42:49
You know, you talked about death and how you’re not afraid of that. And and you’ve made peace with that. Is that something you’ve thought about going to the end of your life? And? And? Well, I mean, if you’ve made peace with being alone, too, right, like so? It’s not You’re not seeking relationships for codependency reasons, right? You’re seeking relationship chips to enrich your life. But I’m wondering if that decision to not have children? Is that something that you think about? As you’re getting older now?
Stephanie Cerins 43:21
No, I’m really glad. I’ve especially with this COVID going on? No, I’m glad. I think there’s ya know why I’m so glad that I didn’t have kids. I’m just gonna make friends. And you know, even some of my people with people that have kids, oh, well, I wonder which kids is going to take care of me when I get home. Like, I don’t even think about that. Because it’s just karma. If you do good, you’re gonna get good. So I don’t worry about something bad happening. Sure. Something bad’s gonna happen. The car will break, somebody will die. I don’t know, the government’s gonna collapse. Who knows what’s going to happen? I’ve been thinking that recently, I thought, you know, when I incarnated here, nobody promised me sane governments. Nobody promised me sane partners. Right. And so I think we just, we just expect a lot in life. And we expect to we see so much richness on TV and plenty. And you know, that it’s just ridiculous. I mean, I heard in Cuba, because they don’t have TV and all the stuff that they don’t have as much body shaming issues, right? Well, hello. You know, that’d be great if we didn’t have women injecting silicones in their butts or some to make it bigger. I mean, I think it’s just really important to just stay focused on really what’s important. Do we have enough food? Do we have a house to live in? Do we have some friends? Not? Am I going to be the richest person on the planet? You know, am I going to be the next Bill Gates or whatever, right? I’m hoping somehow this COVID is going to bring us down to a little more reality of relief. But, you know, 200 years ago, nobody traveled Nobody went anywhere. You know
Victoria Volk 45:03
I know. And isn’t it crazy to think of how far the all the advancements and all of the stuff in 100 years just in the last 100 years, even 7550 years, it’s, it’s just absolutely crazy. It’s like we’re the most spoiled. We’re the most spoiled generation, but we’re probably in a lot of ways, the most miserable and it comes back to like what you said, it’s like you can have all this stuff. But what what is enriching your life experiences? deep conversation? deep connection? You know, and we can experience that if we don’t address the stuff that’s like, lurking in us.
Stephanie Cerins 45:46
Exactly. And, and at least nowadays, we have enough time to explore some of it. I think, before life was so hard that you just, you know, I can’t even imagine having six kids and women had no rights use that as much rights as the dog, right. I mean, really, just not that long ago. You know, being grateful for everything’s really safe to me, I swear that little piece of advice, just if even if I’m grateful that I’m late, because if I was any earlier, maybe I would have gotten a terrible car crash, right. I mean, I’m really good at making it I’ll make good stories, instead of bad stories, we need to have a running well, it’s gonna work out terrible and everything’s in bad. It’s always gonna work out the best for me. I have environmental illnesses. So I have a mask from that from for bicycle riding from Europe, that sometimes I wanted to wear, because I’m carrying us and stuff, I burp and I don’t feel good. And my husband’s an artist and we do outside shows sometimes where there’s more traffic than my body is comfortable with. So are like at the end, the end, I’d put my mask on because there’s so much cars going by in the exhaust just from the cars will make me burp. And so so now the whole world is wearing a mask so I can wear my mask more. See, it always works out all the best for me like, and I make up silly, ridiculous stories like that. Because it’s no more ridiculous and said, Oh my god, nothing’s gonna work and I’m not gonna have any money and oh my god, and nobody’s gonna love me and I’m gonna be alone forever. Right? Like, it’s just a story. So just make up a better story, right? Abraham Hicks. She’s like, just pick the next better feeling thought and what if your depression than rage is better than depression? Well, how great is that to hear? Oh, right. Well, I’m upset.
Victoria Volk 47:34
Well, rage can be a very good motivator to anger is a very good motivator.
Stephanie Cerins 47:39
It is the house gets very clean if I’m
Victoria Volk 47:44
I am the same way. Lady mom clean house. So we got to channel it. Yeah. Right. You might as well channel and pour it out and get rid of it and do something productive with it. Right?
Stephanie Cerins 47:57
No top and one uses a lot of braid.
Victoria Volk 48:01
Yeah. No, I love that I find myself the same thing like making up stories. If someone like the checkout person, if they’re rude to me, or whatever, I’m pretty good at making up stories. Well, you gave a little piece of advice there about gratitude. But is there anything else that you would share with someone today who may be kind of where you were in that in between where you’re just kind of on the cusp of this awareness of how much better life could be and how much sweeter life could be?
Stephanie Cerins 48:32
I think it’s just be gentle with yourself while you’re going through anything. And to not were so dramatic Oh, right. Like, I’m gonna die or like me wanting to die as a 16 year old, 17 year old, because I’m so enraged that my dad left me here, right, and I missed out on all kinds of fun, and trauma in life. You know, and understanding. And so to just, you know, be to be patient with yourself and to be gentle with yourself and to don’t expect ourselves to know so much. I mean, it’s not like, you know, you don’t get a course in life when you’re born. It’s like, like, we learned to talk, but we can’t read. That’s kind of how life is right? You don’t just get thrown into things, right? Like, you don’t have to have a training class to have a baby, right? You can just get pregnant when you’re 12 or whatever, you have a period and we get pregnant. It’s like, oh, oh, that happened. I mean, I’m sure that’s what my dad was like, how would I get a baby? You’re a kid and me. That’s how it happened. Like really? He was pretty oblivious. My dad who at all right, like, and I think that’s how a lot of people go through life was just there didn’t make choices. It just happened to him. Right. And so I think by me choosing that I didn’t want to have kids that started a whole bunch of changes. cuz then whatever we decide in life, one of my friends, she wanted to have six kids. I was like, wow, okay, and she did it. And I was like, Wow. All right. And then she’s dealing with that which she’s created. Right? And is that was a hard one.
Victoria Volk 50:16
Yeah, I just had with teenagers too. I have three teenagers and talking to them about choices and how choices every choice, every single choice that you make has a consequence.
Stephanie Cerins 50:29
And every thought you think has a consequence? And we’re not told that in school, right? We’re not, right. It’s really what we think creates our actions and our beliefs. And that’s your life, right? And so just how can we help each other to to be more gentle, and I could have a boyfriend, my dad died? It’s like, oh, well, that’s one thing to be grateful about. I could have a boyfriend because he would have killed any boyfriend that came around, right? And he wouldn’t be so mean, I would have never got a boyfriend. That’s what I remember thinking that well, at least I could get a boyfriend. Now,
Victoria Volk 50:59
Let me ask you this, because it kind of circles back to the whole idea that, you know, your thoughts are important and have consequences and thoughts become things. And so what about this idea of life is hard? I want to challenge you on that, that, isn’t that a belief? That life is hard? Or is it that we make it hard?
Stephanie Cerins 51:21
Well, I think for me, the day that I read that, and how it resonated is that I sort of looked at, like how I how I thought was everybody else was having an easy time when it was just hard for me. But when I read that, and that helped me have an understanding that, oh, life’s just hard sometimes. Not that. And I do think that sometimes like this heart, I mean, to get up every day and chop wood and carry water. And I mean, could you imagine growing food, and then the locusts come and like you didn’t have a grocery store with everything just right up the street, like we’re really I mean, it’s pretty easy for us, really, a lot of us, we don’t have a lot of hardships. And in that our past families have had to do like, if you didn’t grow the garden, really you didn’t eat, you know, and that kind of thing. And or, you know, you got to go kill the animal and tan the hide. And so you could wear something right.
Victoria Volk 52:15
And that was on top of the grief, they already had to write, though. So you know, a lot of those conveniences of life take away a lot of the grief that will never hopefully, God willing, that we never experience right? Or that we never feel personally,
Stephanie Cerins 52:33
Yes, that we have a lot of comfort. When then I sometimes when you have a hard thing, sometimes you learn something, but it’s still balance, and you still got to have a support system. And I sometimes wonder if with all the margin, because I don’t have to have someone with me, right? Our independence makes us more sort of honoree and individual, right? If it’s if I don’t have to grow the garden and do this and the chickens and kill something in, you know, and has sit around having a sewing circle so we can make a quilt and faster than 25 years, we’ll all work on a quilt and then we’ll make one and we’ll make one for you. And we all make a quilt right. And that’s how we used to do things all together more. Right. But with the advent of petroleum, petroleum, there’s so much work that we don’t have to do, right, it takes the holes, it does lots of things, and makes our life easier. And then the food, right. And that’s hard because people are eating such crappy food. They don’t even have no energy. I mean, 200 years ago, guys cut down trees as big as my house with a saw with one guy on each end. Right? Now, we got to have a bigger truck because the guy can’t even lift the garbage can, right. I mean, it’s so
Victoria Volk 53:49
You bring out so many interesting perspectives. And it really does just, it just really brings up for me that we used to do so much more with community like it was everything was done, because you couldn’t I think it’s really what this message, what it comes down to is that life was done with others used to be done with others, and so much and I think that’s what the advancements perhaps have been a contributing factor to this isolation that we experienced, because even if they didn’t talk about grief, or it wasn’t something that but you know what, honestly, like, when someone died back, then way back then they would have their loved one with them for days and take pictures after they died with them. So everything grief was even done differently. Yeah. And so I think that with advancements the advancements have come have brought consequences, right. And I think it’s this, like you said this more isolating society.
Stephanie Cerins 55:00
Were separated from death more, they come and hurry up and take away the body and hurry out. Instead of you know, you used to wash the body yourself and then bury it in the backyard, right or whatever. And so with the distances and all the modernization and that we don’t even kill animals to eat anymore. Some guy does it in the slaughterhouse and has to kill all the animals for everybody, instead of everybody just getting a little death on you, right?
Victoria Volk 55:29
That’s true. That’s very true.
Stephanie Cerins 55:32
And so I think that this, we’ve have a sterilization of our life more because of the modernization and the withdrawing of the, from people in grief and everything, right? And we think it’s supposed to be so easy, but no, gosh, Everybody’s hungry. I’m trying to grow a garden here. And you know, you plant the seed, and you got this little baby embryonic plant, right, like it’s in the womb, right? It’s a little baby plant, just one shoe. Everybody eats that little chute like to defend that little chute. So you could grow it and eat it like and so I’m feel very lucky to be able to understand the circle of life a little bit more than if I can help someone else understand it more that way. Because I don’t think we die when I did a meditation when my mom had said if she wanted to Reiki healing when she was getting ready to go, and she said she did and I was very shocked. And so I went down by to a beach by where we lived, and just did a little meditation. And in that meditation, first me and my mom, I, I saw her, we saw her body in the bed of the hospital bed, right? And we were just kind of like, I guess hovering in the air. I couldn’t see us. But we were we were like drone view of the bed, the hospital a better overview. And she was like a big giant raisin. I was like, Oh, Mom, I think your body’s getting all tired and whistled up. That’s not looking too good, is it? No, it’s not looking too good, isn’t it? And then the next thing in my meditation, we went and we we were walking up a path and it was very glowy at the end of the path. And as we got closer to the light, the glowing mass it individualized more. And it was like, there was grandpa and not as not a vision. But the feeling right there was Dad and Grandpa and Gordy and Alan and all these people waiting for my mom, right? And then I took my mom’s hand and passed it, but it felt like to my dad. And so after that visualization, I’m not scared of death, like at all. It’s just, we’re just light beings and we got these bodies. And we’ve just go back to the big ball blade. And there’s going to be people there waiting, and we’re never alone.
Victoria Volk 57:49
So would you say that’s what grief has taught you?
Stephanie Cerins 57:52
Yep, that we’re never alone. It asking you shall receive. It’s really true. If you just ask and you don’t expect it to happen. But don’t put a time limit on it. And don’t worry about it. Right, but then just trust and do your best. Because Because we’re all just here for helping into into be compassionate with one another if we can.
Victoria Volk 58:19
So you mentioned Reiki are you You are a Reiki practitioner Reiki master.
Stephanie Cerins 58:24
Yeah yeah, I do Reiki and reflexology simultaneously on a person so I do the energy body and the physical body. And most of the time my clients are falling asleep on the table and I don’t understand that matches around their head. And it’s like, I don’t know if I would be that. But I feel grateful that to be and then I write affirmations, personalized affirmations for people to help them just like a little short story, right? That’s something good because I have friends that just ad nauseam berate themselves, right and So can’t we nauseam cheer ourselves up until I did something good. I did the dishes today. I didn’t even have to cuss or nothing while I did it or, you know,
Victoria Volk 59:07
All of the healing that you’ve kind of experienced in the last 1518 20 years or so. That has led to you like would you say that Reiki found you because that’s most Reiki practitioners I know say that Reiki found them.
Stephanie Cerins 59:21
I’ve done reflexology since I was a teenager because I learned it to help my mom the from the reflexologist that she used to take us to and he trained me to help my mom because she was such a mess and then but when my ex husband he used to have migraines, so I would sit and do the reflexology. But I but before I even knew Reiki I visualized having like come in my head and go out my hands. God’s like God’s love whatever. Good orderly direction I would say I don’t know why Jeffrey has a headache. But you know why Jeffrey has a headache. God, whatever good orderly direction and Jeffrey’s body knows why Jeffrey has a headache. So maybe I could Just like give them some energy and you guys can figure it out right? And not take responsibility or anything for the energy. And then I read a Reiki book and I thought I’ve been doing Reiki already. So then I got a break the I became a Reiki Master so I could actually learn what I was trying to do more. That’s how I felt. So yeah, I think Reiki definitely better. I it’s just like a mom, when your mom like kisses your booboo. That’s Reiki, right? It’s just like, offering good loving energy from your heart. Right? But if you learn how to do it, well, then you can do it better.
Victoria Volk 1:00:38
It seems like to me, you’ve kind of found the essence of who you are, with your healing, right? You’ve come back to the essence of who you are, what you were doing with the animals and caring for the animals and helping them transition when it was their time. And in doing that, for those that you loved along the way, right? Like, that’s really the essence. It’s and I think in grief, and when we’re so far in it, and deep in it, we can’t connect to that part of ourselves. It’s really difficult to
Stephanie Cerins 1:01:08
No. Yeah, cuz we’re so overcome with the emotions, and we’re feeling so alone and everything and because we’ve decided, oh, that person left and they did it. I mean, I thought, you know, my dad died because of me. And I felt guilty for it. But it wasn’t didn’t have anything to do with me, it had to do with all the thoughts he thought and the over only the overwhelm in his mind that he felt too alone. And he felt overwhelmed, or whatever it was, that caused him to pick up a bottle every day, right. And besides working in a very toxic place where they have you washed your car when you leave, but you didn’t hose the shit out of your lungs, you know, and wow, up your skin and working at a pulp mill was not very healthy, right. And meanwhile, I know lots of guys that lived in retired and I even cleaned house for a guy that was over 80 years old who worked in a pulp mill forever. So it didn’t have to kill you either the chemicals, right? It’s just how you perceive things and think and
Victoria Volk 1:02:05
Is there anything else that you would like to share,
Stephanie Cerins 1:02:08
I just feel very blessed to be a part of your podcast and to have a chance to share my story and maybe to wrap a person and help them find their, their beauty in their own self and to not be affected so much by the fears and the anglers have their families and whoever raised them and taught them the world how it should be.
Victoria Volk 1:02:29
Pave your own path, right? Yeah,
Stephanie Cerins 1:02:32
So don’t worry about what other people think and make up your own silly story and just do it. I’m the happiness enhancer, right? I just made that shit up, you know, but I did that. But last year, I did take I love Heart Math, the company Heart Math. And so I’m a Heart Math certified Heart Math mentor to help me be able to help people get in touch with their heart and to breathe, actually breathe emotions through their heart. Right? And to be able to maintain heart coherence more often.
Victoria Volk 1:03:04
Oh, can you talk a little bit more about that?
Stephanie Cerins 1:03:07
Oh, sure. I love Heart Math, because Heart Math is the study that that our heart really is more powerful than our brain. Because in our society, we’re told our brains more powerful than our heart. When in when in the meantime, what’s the first thing that performs in the human body in the womb? The heart? When does it start beating at 18 to 21 days? Do we have a brain? No, we don’t even have a brain. Right when our heart starts beating, right, and that we have a brain actually, there’s brain neurons in our heart. There’s Breton neurons in your stomach, you have the same kind of neurons in your brain, in your heart in your stomach, to help us to be able to connect with each other. I mean, we have a mirror neurons in our brain so that if someone’s crying, we feel empathy, because that person needs us to feel empathy, right? And so that we can connect and that they’ve proven now that there’s an aura, like they can measure this auric field that goes about isn’t it interesting, about six feet, most people’s heart energy goes about six feet, and then I’m fine that we’re supposed to distance six feet. So I thought that was interesting. And that just I love Heart Math, because it proves that hearts more important than brain. And I think that if that’s true, and I think in our society that’s totally not emphasize that.
Victoria Volk 1:04:34
I would 100% agree with you. And I’m very curious about that. And so I will definitely be looking into that.
Stephanie Cerins 1:04:41
Yeah, it’s heartmath.org or heartmath.com. And the.org has all the scientific studies and stuff and you can go down the wells and the.com is a little bit more than reaching out and promoting themselves and stuff. like that, but it’s been going for about, I don’t know, 20 or 30 years Heart Math. And then oh, if you haven’t know, you’re gonna love Heart Math, if you haven’t heard of it, oh, no, I’ve never heard of it. And so and so I paid $1,400. So I could become a mentor. And that allows me to be able to train about 10 people, but I think I’m gonna go for, I don’t know when, but I’ll go and get the next one. So I can do like 100 people, and then I could have, but not that it really matters that I can really get that many people together right now. Anyway, still, so. But yeah, just to Yeah, HeartMath is so fascinating. And it really took and it’s hard like to actually generate a new baby, you got a thing you stick on your ear, and it measures like your heart coherence. And it’s not that easy to keep the feeling of love going not thinking about love, but to actually emanate a feeling. And to get that heart, there’s a, it can turn red, or a green or blue. And to keep it green, which means they’re all like this, you know, a monk, I would say or whatever, right? And, and so it’s fascinating to, I can generate a real good for about five or 10 minutes, and then it seems like it starts dropping off. And so I haven’t worked with it as much as I could. But I would like to someday be able to generate that for 20 minutes or half an hour or, you know, just constant if it would stay green. But I can get it to go totally green for like 10 or 15 minutes. And then you know, your mind starts to wander and you get, you know, think about the laundry or something.
Victoria Volk 1:06:40
And I think that really makes me think of gratitude, right, like gratitude and you know, loving what is good in your life. And giving that appreciation is kind of up there with love, you know. So,
Stephanie Cerins 1:06:54
The more the more we can you know, the more you can just focus on whatever we can do not not everything that we can’t take anything. You know, I can’t do nothing about what the government’s do nothing about what anybody does except me. And what can I do? Well, I can at least try to at least I can be generous in kind no matter what anybody else does. And then I know someone’s generous and kind and then I’ll run into my
Victoria Volk 1:07:19
Laptop. So where can people find you, I know, You’ve written a couple books,
Stephanie Cerins 1:07:24
My one book healing my heart after a loss is on Amazon. And I hope to get my other one on Amazon pretty soon, because I published it through a different way the first time in 2014 in 2017. And so I just have to redo it in Word. And so it’s taken a little while and but anyway, so on, on Amazon and then healing my heart after a loss just comes up if you type it in the search bar, and then the and I’d like to send you a book, I’d like to email you a book. I mean, I’d like to mail you a hard copy if you want to email me or address. Because I feel blessed that to have this opportunity to share my story and trip the planet. Because that’s my goal to bring tear to the planet or cheer up the people of planet Earth or because it’s we all just take it too serious and happiness is healthy. That’s my website. And I’ve been writing I have a blog that I’ve been writing, it’ll be my 10 year anniversary, I just thought of now when we were talking that my blog is 10 years old this year. And I’ve written affirmations. And when I first started it in 2012, I was writing affirmations every day, just like a paragraph long affirmation to try to cheer people up because you and that’s why I made this a coloring book book. Like you color you read in color, because then if you just read this one that’s not going to change your life. Because you have to read something over and over, there’s a book called The greatest salesman, and it says in there Augmentee know, tells you to read it in the morning, read it in the afternoon, and then read it out loud each chapter, you read the little chapter two or three pages in the morning, the afternoon and then out loud at night. And you do it for a whole month. And then so it takes 10 months to get through that book if you really do what it says. But it’s really like one of the things is I laugh at myself and the world laughs with me and I take myself you know, and I don’t make a big deal of things and just really it was a long time ago. I can’t even remember all 10 of them anymore, right? But I will laugh at myself. I live this day as if it is my last you know just lots of things to you know, so that you don’t waste your life you take the moments that you get.
Victoria Volk 1:09:42
I will put all of the links to everything you mentioned in the show notes. And you I thank you so much for this rich conversation and for you sharing your story with my listeners today.
Stephanie Cerins 1:09:55
I feel very blessed and thanks for having me. It’s they’re lovely and and I like you as much as your voice, I thought she was a good boy. So I’m gonna reach out to her. So,
Victoria Volk 1:10:05
I love that. Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love, from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections | Mothering Yourself Through Grief
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s episode is an invitation to look at how you had been mothered and nurtured by your mother (or mother figure) as a child and how that has influenced you today.
I also bring Mother Nature into the conversation because what Mother Nature gives us is a great analogy, in general, for the topic of experiencing mothering and nurturing.
When was the last time you gave yourself, as an adult, what you never received as a child?
This conversation is less about self-care and more about something deeper – an experience of loving unconditionally and receiving wholeheartedly, so much so that it is transformative.
A mother’s love, or motherly love, has the potential to be transformative. Listen to this week’s episode, and then sit with what comes up for you. Then contemplate how you can utilize mothering and nurturing energy to transform your life and the inner child in you that craves it.
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This is episode 110 A takeaways and reflections episode that I’m gonna title mothering yourself through grief. And it’s been a hot minute since I’ve actually recorded a takeaways and reflections episode. This is actually the first of season three. And if you’ve been wondering where these takeaways and reflection episodes have been, it’s my schedule. It’s a little bit crazy in my life right now with three teenagers and appointments and works in all sorts of things. And so I’ve been trying to find a way to make it a little easier on myself because in order for me to record this, I have to have peace and quiet. And also I need to be in a mindset of peace within myself. And that’s a little hard to find these days with the hustle and bustle of my home. And you know just the busyness of life with summer and things like that. So that’s what’s been shaken here in my neck of the woods. In case you missed the last several episodes since my last takeaways and reflections, I’ll just give a quick recap. Episode 106 with Elizabeth was titled “My Shattered Heart; Experiencing Stillbirth and being a Widow at 27. Episode 107 with Michelle Hernandez and hers was titled “The Soaring Spirit of Widow and Fatherless Daughter” and episode 108 with Rachel burns “The Space in Between”. And Episode 109, which was last week’s with Maha Bodhi and I don’t recall what the title is of that, oh, “The Quest for Inner Peace and Freedom. That’s what it was.
Reflecting on Mothering
And all of these stories had me reflecting on mothering. As I’ve thought about what each of these women had in common, and I think what any female or any woman who experiences loss and grief. And you know, even men, truthfully, even men, because we all want that feeling of being mothered, nurtured, cared for, loved. And a mother brings a unique gift to that experience. Now, not all people I don’t necessarily believe not all people have that innate ability to nurture. But I think we are all capable of learning how to be nurturing. And so when I’m thinking about these four women, and what they individually experienced in their lives, three of them are mothers, one is not, but all had a mother or have a mother. And we’re on the receiving end of someone being their mother. And I don’t even believe too that you have to biologically be the parent or mother of a child or someone else. It can be something that comes out of you or out of your spirits like this mothering spirit you have about yourself.
Mother Nature
You know like Mother Nature, we call her mother nature. We don’t call her father nature. We refer to nature as Mother Nature, the giver of all things beautiful. And the sights and the smells, and the sounds that nurture our spirit, when we are out in her environment, and taking her in, breathing her in, it’s nurturing, and mothering, to our spirit, to be out in mother nature, right? And so if we think about that, and how we go through grief, and how impactful the lack of mothering we may have received as children. Nature as an adult can be very nurturing the neighbor next door, who is a grandmother to other children, or who is a mother herself, to her own children can be that nurturing mothering figure in your life, can often see that in like foster homes or group homes, or some may call them a mentor. But to a child, that person might be more than a mentor, they might be the only mother figure that they have in their lives, which is so important to receive that nurturing in that loving for our spirit.
It’s Even More Deeply than just Self-care
But what if you didn’t have that experience as a child, like Maha, you have to learn how to give that to yourself? And that was a long journey for her to learn how to mother herself, give her the nurturing in the space in the comfort in this in the holding of her own heart. Now with Rachel and Michelle and Elizabeth, we really didn’t get into a whole lot of discussion about their experiences as children being mothered, because the stories were about they themselves as mothers through their grief. But you will listen and receive a lot of wonderful wisdom about how these women navigated the grief while being a mother while trying to nurture and Mother themselves while trying to also nurture and mother, children at the same time, who they themselves may also be grieving. I just think it’s so important that we really truly think about what it means to us, to be mothered. What we need to feel nurtured, and what our soul and our spirit need to feel held.
And so often in grief, we look to other people, or we look to others, we look to substances, or we look for that. Everywhere else but within ourselves. It’s about self-care. Yes. And I know that’s what comes to my mind is you think about self-care. But I just want to challenge you to think about it even more deeply than just self-care. Think about what was emulated for you by your mother about self-care. How were you nurtured? What did you learn about nurturing? Do you find that you are the nurturer as an adult but you didn’t receive that as a child but yet you probably give from an empty cup. You’re always giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. It’s very difficult for you to receive you don’t know how to ask for help. It’s often a familiar pattern is people pleasing. For those who have not received that as a child. You don’t want to rock the boat you don’t want to make and you know the other person upset will just use your mother, for instance, you don’t want to make her upset. And so you people, please. You do everything you can to make her happy. Meanwhile, you’re self-sacrificing. You’re not allowing yourself to be nurtured. You’re not asking for your needs to be met. And often that happens when the mother is grieving.
What We Learn from Our Mothers is so Impactful as Adults
Or there are other issues going on, that have nothing absolutely to do with you as a child, or when you were a child. But these patterns repeat into adulthood, and what we learn from our mothers is so impactful as adults. And so I just want you to think about as you’re experiencing grief, or maybe you know, someone who is grieving, what is mothering, nurturing thing that you can do for that person or for yourself? Think of yourself as that inner child. What would you so love your mother to do for you? If she was there? If she was able if she would have been there for you as a child, what would you have wanted her to do? And similarly, if you know someone who is grieving if you are their mother, what would you do? What is something you could do to make that person feel nurtured, loved, and cared for as a mother would?
Mothering ourselves it is the best gift that we can give ourselves while we are grieving, and otherwise, and so many of us have to learn what that even looks like. And often it’s in adulthood. And that’s a very challenging time, especially when you’re trying to be a mother. Because children bring up all of those insecurities and all of those unaddressed pain points from your childhood experience with your own mother. They often arise when you yourself, become a mother.
P.S. So I just invite you to sit with whatever comes up. And ask yourself what you can do for yourself. What you would like to change, what pattern you would like to break and not repeat and pass on to your children or the child you are mentoring or the child that you want to help in foster care? Whatever role of a mother you are playing in your life, it is the best gift you can give others is to look into yourself. I think that about does it for today for this takeaways and reflections episode. I hope it was inspiring. I hope it was helpful.
