Ep 99 | Wayne Forrest

Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Podcast | 0 comments

Wayne Forrest | Waking Up a C4 Quadreplegic: My Catalyst to Becoming

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

“Bang, I made a mistake!”

Those were the words, my guest, Wayne Forrest, described the moment that changed his life forever.

It was a chance happening (or was it?) that Wayne had some teammates out injured from his rugby team, and he filled in to play the game he loved.

One play during that game would have him waking up in a hospital bed five days later to realize he could not only move his legs but he couldn’t move his arms or hands. In an instant, Wayne became a statistic and a C4 quadriplegic.

I’ve always loved under-dog stories – always. It seems the people who have endured the most unfathomable circumstances often find a way a dig deep within themselves and turn a tragedy into gold.

Wayne is now a motivational speaker, coach, and TEDx speaker and has done more in his life while in a wheelchair than many of us who have full use of our limbs.

This is one of those stories I know I will come back to and play again when I doubt myself, feel like a Debbie Downer, or just need to realize how freaking blessed I am.

No matter what you’ve gone through in your life or are going through, I hope you listen to Wayne’s story. He shares three things that helped him get through his “dark night of the soul” and how he’s no one special – we are all capable of turning our lives around at any given point. It does, however, come down to deciding to do so; only then will you see yourself becoming – who you were always meant to be.

“Do something that scares you every day.” – Wayne Forrest

RESOURCES:

• Wayne Forrest TEDx Talk
• Kindness & Unity Facebook Group

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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening, whatever time it is and wherever you’re listening from. Thank you for tuning in. And you might be wondering if you’ve been following my podcast for a while. Why this is not a takeaways and reflections episode this week after last week’s AMI Metcalf’s episode. And it is because I’m approaching episode 100. And I really wanted that episode to be a takeaways and reflections and just how my schedule when it didn’t work out that way. So I am putting Amy’s and Wayne’s episodes into one takeaways and reflections episode that’ll come out next week. And so in the meantime, this week’s episode is a treat. I absolutely love my conversation with Wayne. And it’s so inspiring even though it’s months later that it’s going live. I’m just as inspired by him and I can’t wait for you to listen. So without further ado, let’s get into this week’s episode. My guest today is Wayne forest. He is an international transformational speaker and Life Mastery consultant, certified by the brave thinking Institute in LA. He grew up in the community on the east coast of Hawke’s Bay, New Zealand, where he farmed for 25 years with 15 of these from a wheelchair. And he now lives more inland with his wife, Kathy on a small block. He has four children and three grandchildren. And he says that his sporting accident in 1995, leaving him a C five quadriplegic was the catalyst for his ongoing journey into personal development, which has given him the incredible life that he loves, and is very grateful for. Thank you so much for being here.

Wayne Forrest 2:41
It’s a pleasure, Victoria is an absolute pleasure.

Victoria Volk 2:45
It’s my honor to have you I absolutely love connecting with people in this way, one on one and diving deep into grief and hearing the ins and outs of other people’s stories of in your case transformation, which I am very excited to share with my listeners and hear more about. And so can you please take us back to that day when your life changed?

Wayne Forrest 3:10
Yes. It was rather a dramatic change. I was grew up in that physical world of farming. Right from an early age I was on on the front of my grandfather’s horse, out on the farm, immersing myself into it. And then one day I was told to go to school, which I didn’t really think was much chop at all. But school head sport so you know, very physical background. And as I grew up, I immersed myself into those kind of businesses even shearing sheep before my accident and had a couple of businesses going. And I was married and had two beautiful twin daughters of 16 months. And I played rugby for my local club. And we had a few members away and injured that week. And I was a senior member and I played a lot of rugby and making some rip sides that I have kept and before so it wasn’t unusual for me to be a leader of the team. And the game was just a typical tough physical game that we have here in New Zealand. It can be very physical, and we’ve we’re losing and with the lovely little move on as a team with the ball and I ended up receiving that ball and took it into contact with two of the opposition. And bang. I made a mistake. I ended up with my head under my shoulder rolling over onto my neck, which dislocated my neck, I couldn’t breathe. The pain was absolutely incredible. felt like someone was sticking a hot poker right into my neck. And it took about an hour or more for the emergency helicopter to arrive. And he asked me if I’d had any pain relief, I said, No, he gave me some medicine. And I passed out, I woke up five days later, in a hospital bed, honestly, I thought I was in the middle of a dream. And I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t move my hands or couldn’t move my arms, or my legs. And so I went from physical to not having any movement, physical movement are all so you imagine the shock and being a shy country boy and having to have nurses take me to the toilet, you know, do my toileting and feed me and things like that? It was terrible. And there was shame, there was a lot of emotions going around inside me and a lot of thoughts that were creating. You mentioned fear, and anxiety and all those emotions.

Victoria Volk 6:33
I can’t even imagine. I don’t know that anyone really can. But do you recall any conscious thoughts or, or like an experience of almost imagine it would be like this out of body? Like you’re looking at yourself? And like, like, do you recall that moment in that hour? After until you passed out? Or when you were starting to regain consciousness? Do you recall any aspect of that?

Wayne Forrest 6:59
Differently? That bad dream, you know, like, feeling like you’d wake up in a cold sweat afterwards, with a shock through the system of Ah, shit. I’m having a bad dream in your wake up? Oh, hell, no. It’s not a pipe dream. I’m actually in this. And you kind of wanted the wake up, you know, from from this experience and go, Oh, sure. That didn’t happen. But it did. And so you hit that kind of feeling. It’s quite interesting, because I had a friend staying with me that weekend that I’d met overseas a few years earlier, and his partner, and we were just having a quiet drink that night before. And an accident was shown on TV of a young fella who, out of 26 kids was one of two survivors. And he broke every bone in his body falling off platform overlooking a river out we’ve got beautiful country, and it was out in the, in the wilderness. And so about 23 Young people died, that are on that platform. And the sham follow was one of the only survivors. Now my friend visited me a couple of weeks later in hospital. And he said, Can you remember the conversation that we had that night? About the sham follow up? And I said no. And he said, Well, you said that you would rather be dead then have every bone in your body broken. And then this happens to the next day. Coincidence, I don’t know. But synchronicities. I ended up sharing the room with the same guy. And that thought never occurred to me until he brought it up. It’s quite funny. There’s something and that’s that strives not wants to die. I have that feeling of oh my god, I’d rather be dead. There was life seeking through me once I had my accident. Yes, a few of those thoughts came in later down the track where where, you know, you might have been going through a dark patch or a dark moment and this experience of like, talking months or even years later, and no because it’s now 26 years since my accident. So I’m kind of talking about the first five and Not once. In that first few weeks, did that thought come into my mind? It was about survival. It was about getting better. It was about how can I, you know, survive this. So it’s really interesting how you know, the conscious mind can say something the day before you have an accident that you’d rather be dead, then totally forget about that. And just concentrate on on survival. Interesting experience to go through.

Victoria Volk 10:36
Have you connected with that man since or did you stay connected with him? I’m just curious of the friend, the man that was in that shared the hospital room with you the gentleman that had that accident?

Wayne Forrest 10:50
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have. I haven’t been in touch the last few years, he ended up with more movement than I did. Which is quite ironic. And I quite often, that’s my sense, humor. I laugh about these things. But it’s quite interesting how this journey seems to have fight or the synchronicities that are tied into the experience.

Victoria Volk 11:26
I absolutely believe in synchronicities for sure. I imagine with your children being so young, can you speak to that the grief of the family unit moving forward, and when did it feel like it was starting to maybe lift where you felt like you are more in control of your mindset around it?

Wayne Forrest 11:52
Might, that’s a big one. The twins, they now have been so young to and being your first children and having twins, you can imagine that I had no choice I had to be a full on dead and being physical. And being on the farm and outdoors, I often took one of them species, one that was a little bit more difficult with me. Anyone who’s had twins knows that they have their turns that been difficult, especially when they’re little. So I used to take one in particular with me out on the farm and out on jobs. So she spent a lot of time with dad. And then it was a good month, nearly three weeks to a month before she saw me again in that hospital bed because I was so far away from home, I remember her reaction, she saw me in the bed and pack the biggest wobbly, you could and lay down on the floor of the hospital kicking and screaming. And I knew exactly what you wanted me to

Wayne Forrest 13:12
Do, and I know the listeners might be able to see that I’ve got really emotional because it still hit me right in the guts. Because she wanted me to pick her up and out could wasn’t until she left that room with my family. I just broke down really, really hit me hard. And, you know, I know now that that’s part of the lesson. It’s part of a part of growing me from inside out. But But at that moment, that was gut wrenching. It really hit me home that my life has changed. Because I would pick her up, I would take her away from the situation. I would have, you know, soothed her in that way as a dad. And yeah, I couldn’t. And of course, you know, my first marriage, my wife had her own inner demons and you know, me not having that control. I always saw myself as a bit of a white knight on a horse. I know it’s a bit egotistical before my accident where I could control control and help people and my wife drank quite heavily. And so, you know, all of a sudden, I couldn’t control that anymore physically. And so there was a lot of that feelings of, of hopelessness of, of vulnerability of, to the point where at times, if she’d been drinking, I felt at a fear of my own life, you know, it wasn’t always the case. But I had those thoughts. So it took to answer your question, it took probably a good three years to five years for me to start really creating that physical control again, and control of my environment. And of course, in that process, our marriage didn’t survive, I knew enough that I wanted to create a strong relationship with and you can imagine nasty separations, she didn’t really want to be separated from me, but didn’t want to be with me. So I forced their shoes. So it did get a little bit messy, you know, and, sadly, kids got caught in the middle, I knew enough to make sure that I didn’t blame her for the separation, and I tried to keep tried to be the ground, and that, that relationship for them. And now, I’ve got a fantastic relationship, that 28 years old, they’re both kids have their own marriage, you know, so, and we’re very tight as a family. And as time has gone over, you know, the relationship with my ex wife has healed and, and, and we’ve created a bridge for them. So we know, so we can work for me is so they can have a life and not worry about mom and dad been in the same room.

Victoria Volk 17:18
That’s a beautiful gift to give them. A lot of ego having to be put aside and to work on daily to do that to imagine.

Wayne Forrest 17:29
Why ego no ego, put me in the position of broke my neck or dislocated my neck. Ego, you can imagine coming from that farming, sport, rugby, booed, man, no, drank too much party to hide background. And then having to there was a lot of ego even in my healing, there was a lot of ego. And that’s one thing that I’ve, I’ve learned just in recent years with my study around, there’s spiritual laws and, and principles of transformation, that recognizing that ego and the true us the soul or the love, and us, and I’ve done a lot of healing inward on that I’m good enough. Because that same paradigm put me in this position that I made that mistake and dislocated my neck. And I believe this no accidents.

Victoria Volk 18:54
What do you feel was the biggest catalyst in your healing, biggest nurturer of your healing? Maybe it was a resource or a person or what was the biggest? I think you know what I’m trying to say?

Wayne Forrest 19:11
That’s great question. Really great question. And there was a number of things, because it’s been a journey. Right? It was it just didn’t just happen. What I look back now and with my knowledge and what I teach and learn, and I practice these principles every day, and I look back now I think it’s having a vision, having a vision of what would I love, and I knew I wanted to go back to the farm because that was my first love. So I accidentally created a vision and that helped pull me into the becoming and of course I got better physically as well because I had a clear vision of what I wanted to be able to achieve. When I had my accent, I couldn’t move my arms and enhance, like I can now write. And so I worked diligently or hard. In other words, I don’t like that word has worked constantly getting stronger in those early days. And because I had a clear vision, things fell into place, like the right people, I lived in the watts or on a dirt road out in the middle of nowhere on the coast, yet one of the people that has passed now, but she came and helped me with getting up and making as a carer and she was a qualified physio, before she got married to a local farmer. And she was brilliant. She, I put down a lot of what I got back in those early years to her, because of her knowledge, her skill level, she kept me going, you know, and the rehab and, and kept me just inching forward. And I believe in that synchronicity, as we’re talking about before, that was because I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do. And I achieved that I ended up getting strong enough to drive again, within a couple of years that gave me freedom. It gave me independence, that also came in the ability to get something adapted for the farm. So I could get around the farm and start managing net again. And once I achieved that, all of a sudden, it was like, Wow. I want another call. And of course, be very careful listeners, what you asked for. Because, you know, I asked for something that was gonna challenge me. That was going to make me stretch again, just about the next day, I get a email from someone who had started up a pilot course of doing extreme outdoor activities for people with disabilities. No way. No way. All right. And I was like, Oh, shit, that’s scary. Because then we’re going to do and sailing, paragliding scuba diving. And I’m like, how the beep beep beep am I gonna do that? I’m a teacher pledge it with no balance. I’ve got no hands. How am I gonna climb a rope or, or get down a cliff or, you know, be underwater and be able to do these things. And it was perfect. And so I put my name down and in our and I’m a big scaredy cat, or not someone who really looks for danger or for things that are going to scare them. But Dave is aremy. So I did it. And I learned a lot from doing that. I ended up doing water skiing and London here and lake just out of London. I’ve I’ve done paragliding I’ve done scuba diving with the sharks and the Napier aquarium of paragliders off blimmin Cliff, you know, not on my own. But I’ve experienced all these sounds. Because of putting down that first vision. And if this vision then took me on a road of discovery, and you know, where my road was hitting before.

Wayne Forrest 24:07
We don’t know where that would have gone to before my accident. And where I am today. Oh my god, the polarity is so different. No, it’s just so hard to describe because it’s so different from where I was before my accident where I am today. And I’m more confident, I’m more happier with myself healed that I’m a not enough I’m still working on it. As we know. It takes time. But I have four kids now. I’ve got three grandchildren, you know, life is good, even from a wheelchair. And I’d so to answer your question that and this is what I teach quite often in workshops and stuff also is the power of having a great vision, and then deciding for that vision, you know, sometimes life gets difficult, it gets really tough. And I had to keep deciding for that vision when it was tough. When I didn’t feel like getting out a bit, when I wanted to just hide away from life, really, I had to decide and get up, get out and do what I had to do to help me create that next step into my vision. And the third one is sourcing that support. We’re not meant to do it on our own. Quite often our ego tells us that we have to do it on our own. But you know, without that support of that physio that was ended, was my neighbor, or the support of my now wife, that was the girl that came and helped me on the farm. You know, the support of the physios, the doctors, the occupational therapists, all those people, the coaches along the way. So they are three secrets, or three main secrets, I believe, is that clear vision of what you would love decision and creating that support system, finding and sourcing people that have already done it, or have the knowledge to help you achieve. Yes, sometimes you have to pay for that. But maybe it’s well worth every cent.

Victoria Volk 26:51
I love that. That is wonderful advice for anything that people are struggling with. And there’s tips there there’s advice, there’s ways that others supported you. You allow yourself to be supported. I think that’s often hard for people to is to allow themselves to be supported. Like to feel like you were worthy enough worthy of someone’s time and energy and effort putting being put into you. Now it takes a lot of inner work, I think to even get to that point to I remember there’s one podcast interview I did with someone a Griever. And she said something and I I’ve never forgotten it. She said, when you lay you decay, and you chose not to decay and get up every day, even when it was hard. And I imagine you did have days where you did just lay and you did have your pity party and feel down on yourself. And I mean, obviously it’s you’re gonna have days like that, right?

Wayne Forrest 27:51
Oh, totally. No, I was lucky. I had a family that was like, you know, they wouldn’t allow that to happen. They would like just hurry up and get out of bed. Come on. Get on with it. Typical farming folk, you know. Yeah, my father came up and it was just about snowing outside. And it comes in for a cup of coffee a cup of coffee, which he did it most mornings. And I it turns around to me this is whatever you move the ship yet. I’m like, dead. It’s bloody cold outside. But I know moving. Yeah. I’m gonna go once I warm up, okay. It was just like, come on. They they never saw me any different. You know what I mean? It was like, Don’t give me that crap that you’re in a wheelchair. Get out there and bloody dirt. We’re. So I grew up in that kind of attitude. And I think that helped. Helps in those dark days, because I knew I wasn’t gonna get any sympathy that you know, it was like, Come on, get out a bit. Or get moving, you know? So I forced myself to get out of bed before I was told if that makes sense.

Victoria Volk 29:16
I think what they gave you was love because they didn’t enable you to give up on yourself. Right?

Wayne Forrest 29:25
Yeah. Right from an early age right from day dot you know from Ben. young fella was Come on. You got this. All right. Get out. Go and do it. That’s right, that scab off you know. And

Victoria Volk 29:44
It served you Yeah, because look at all the adventures and different things you’ve probably just listening to you you’ve had more like adventurous fun experiences of you know, the parasailing and all of that stuff. I’ve never done any Have that you’ve done more? Even in a wheelchair than I’m I have as an able bodied person like I have fully functioning limbs in, what am I doing here? Right?

Wayne Forrest 30:13
As a quote that I actually found early on. And I can’t remember who said it, but it was like, do something that scares you every day. And no, because we’ve got this fear system that is ancient. It stems back to the caveman days when there was saber toothed Tigers that were about to pounce on us. So we had to be ready to run. And we call this the flight fright. Freeze syndrome, right? And we still have that same system, and our bodies, but we don’t have the saber toothed Tiger now, instead, we’ve got what does the neighbors say about us all? What does my family say? Or, you know, that is our fear system? Or what is that person in the office saying about me or whatever? Yeah, the ego of that, right? That’s our survival now is worried about what everyone else is, is thinking about us. And that fear isn’t often real. And we’ve learned in society these days are believed to, to live in their fear of what’s coming on time. And, you know, we’ve seen it in the media, we seen it in advertising. They know how our brain works. So that’s shoveling a whole lot of stress and fear, to get us to do what we need to do for society and their plan. Right. And we get manipulated by this idea of how our brain works through society. So, you know, we can look at something that seems to be Geary, and know that as a truth, is my life really in danger in this moment? If it’s not really in danger, then why can I step into it? And as we know, you know, going through a trauma like this, we’re talking about it earlier. This here, heaps of fear of the unknown. And that’s what all that’s what it is, it’s just fear of the unknown, because we haven’t experienced it before. And I love I think there’s a video of Will Smith jumping out of a plane and how, you know, he talked himself, just about out of that all night in a cold sweat, and then right to the next day, right up until he was about jump out. And, you know, he wanted to hang on, and when it didn’t want to do it, but he pushed himself through it. And as soon as he left that, that plane, he was calm, the fear gone. Because he was in the experience, and that’s when he should have had the fear because he was falling towards the earth, right. But the fear gone. So what does that tell us about our brain and how it works, you know, we allow our dreams to pass us by, because we’re scared of the unknown, of stepping into their dream, yes. Our dark nights or breaking my neck or, or whatever you’re going through that, that disease that you’ve got, or that whatever, you know, we have to face up to them. We have to, we can’t, can’t hope they’re gonna go away. We have to actually look at it. But we can also create a real clear vision of what we would love out of this experience. And start stepping into there with that fear.

Victoria Volk 34:32
And let me ask you about that vision. Because did you envision yourself doing the work that you’re doing today? Because I seriously just like, we’re done folks. Like, here’s Wayne forest, his TED talk. I mean, this is very inspirational to me. You’re very inspirational. I just feel it just out of your just through the screen. I can just feel your voice, the passion. I imagine it wasn’t always that way. And so What was the vision? Is it even better than you imagined?

Wayne Forrest 35:05
Maisie my own kind of brilliant life from a wheelchair. How does that work? And I, when I have my accident, I thought my life was over. Right? Because the one I knew up until that point was over, physically, you know, and so cracky How do I ask that question? It’s a great question. The first dream was to go back to their physical life, have fun, but once I achieved that, and you have to remember that farming was might love it was really, it still is I love farming. But once I achieved it, it was the journey of who I become, that created a new vision. And then, you know, I didn’t I wasn’t really clear like I am today. But that’s come with the journey and understanding that if I get really clear on what I would love, then wow. Those synchronicities when you start to get in alignment with who’s that is that your becoming? There’s a Hanton that for your listeners if they listen to that piece real Clifford. It’s who we become. We have to be who we become now, even though we haven’t become it. But when we do, our my golly, gosh, those synchronicities, really start to fall into place. And you end up having conversations like this one, that is just so bloody good. And that is the synchronicity I’ve been of just enjoying the journey and learning on the way by having a clear vision. Because once you achieve that vision, or that dream is always something even greater still, never settle. Never Settle.

Victoria Volk 37:06
I’m going to ask you a question. And I think anyone listening can apply it to them voice like, especially in grief that you know, there’s the event, this certain event, and I want my listeners if you’re listening to this think of an event in your life where that changed you significantly. Now I want to ask you Wayne, what would you say to version 1.0? Wayne 1.0. Knowing what you know now and I want my listeners to think of what what they would like to say to themselves because maybe this maybe an incident just took place for someone maybe they just had a loss that’s totally flipped their lives upside down. What do you want to say to yourself about your future? If you’re listening to this, and I want to ask you Wayne, what would you say to yourself? The Wayne version 1.0 being the version you are now today?

Wayne Forrest 38:12
it’s a beautiful question. And what comes to me is with a love loving heart and love I would give myself a huge hug and say you’ve gotten this you’ve gotten this each one of us has the same Bala that’s breathing us. I don’t care what you think. Or what you’re feeling. I know you’ve got this.

Victoria Volk 39:00
Think this is the most I’ve ever cried wipe tears away during a podcast interview. Oh says so much about your heart. Thank you so much for sharing. What has your grief taught you?

Wayne Forrest 39:19
To love myself more that grief is only there because there’s a part of you as her no one else has hurt you. It’s it’s it comes from a deep, painful scar. Have a young mind while young experience no other way It’s, we’re talking about the child in us. Their pain comes from an experience that we’ve had. And if you give that part of yourself more love you will start to heal that grief.

Victoria Volk 40:25
Do you still have bad days?

Wayne Forrest 40:28
Oh, I’ve totally man, I’m human. You know, I made a joke of that for the talk that I did a couple of days ago. You know, raise your hand. If you’ve had a challenge in life. If you’ve had a bad day in life, or half the crowd go put their hand up and ask them, Are you human? Raise your hand. Yeah, I knew there was a few that weren’t from this world, right? A few human going to have some bad days, as part of it. It’s not meant to be clean. Clinical, it’s meant to be messy, is meant to be messy. It’s, you know, where we’re all meant to do it messy. That’s the way we learn. Now, we’re all meant to fail. It’s as part of the process, they learn a lot from failure, you don’t learn a lot from success. As the failures you ask anybody that’s had incredible success in life. They’ve learned from their failures. And they’ve taken it on and keep failing until they’ve got it. Right. And it’s the same with trauma. It’s kind of be missing. Just step into it. Step into their miss, face up to it. Keep stepping into that unknown. keep stepping into it, because you’ve got a vision of heal, heal, that should be your vision of healing. What would that look like? What would that love look like for you? Create that strong, powerful vision and step into the unknown? Do it messy, do it ugly? Do it with tears. Do it with laughter do it with crying with yelling, do it with if you but do it.

Victoria Volk 42:41
So what does your work look like today?

Wayne Forrest 42:44
My this is what I teach. I love it. There’s nothing better than helping people heal and connect to their true self. I believe that each one of us is born genius. Each one of us has a skill sets something to give to this experience. And what I do is I help people get in touch in alignment with that, and start loving and to that and create a journey of a life that they can look back on and go. God I love my life. God, thank God for this journey.

Victoria Volk 43:30
Bless it right, bless ya. What gives you the most joy and hope for your future?

Wayne Forrest 43:41
Understanding now and that I have this incredible potential, and possibility I’ve got an incredible potential. Just like each age. So walking this earth, I’ve got incredible potential. That excites me, because my there’s a possibility of any thing could happen.

Victoria Volk 44:18
What is your vision look like now for the future? Do you want to share a goal of yours?

Wayne Forrest 44:26
Yeah yeah. What’s the latest one was the TEDx talk. And that was last year. This goal is to speak my truth to more people. And I and I don’t mind sharing this, but I want to speak to 1000s of people at one time, and I want people to to hear the message of my truth of that. You all have that same potential and possibility of having lives that you love. So I want to spread that message as big and wide as far and I believe it’s one that’s needed in this very crazy environment of fear leading us. I want people to, to create lives, they love, because I think that will help humanity go in a direction that we all want.

Victoria Volk 45:34
Never question for you. And I believe I already know the answer. But I want to hear how you answer it. If I had a magic wand, and I can reverse that day, and you would be that day would have happened like any other day, would you want me to reverse that day to change what happened?

Wayne Forrest 45:57
The ego does. With the level of awareness I have now I know that it’s even possible today for me to create

Wayne Forrest 46:12
That possibility, right? We know and quantum physics is possible. So don’t answer your question. I wouldn’t want to give up what I’ve learned. Because I know that now it’s possible that I can actually have have that miracle, or have that have that magic wand, as you said,

Victoria Volk 46:39
Oh, look at me putting limitations on you. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, that’s, that’s me asking you does, right?

Wayne Forrest 46:49
Yeah, but it’s also give me the witness? Well, no, actually, I don’t need that limitation, you know. So you can’t put any limitation on me. Right. So so it’s not about the question or that limitation? Because none of us have, we’re only limited by the way we think. And I know there’s more in that. And there’s probably a whole new podcast for that that subject. But I know that I have that awareness of that consciousness now, then that I’m only limited by the possibility that I think. So if I expand that thinking, and that possibility, then there’s so much more potential.

Victoria Volk 47:40
I just want to give people this idea to this thought to think about this. You don’t have to have a tragic accident, right? To, to have a life that you love to have become the best version of yourself to step into fear and to step into failure and to do all the things and accomplish all the things that you’ve have. Because of that accident. That didn’t have to happen for you to be who you are today. But it did. And rather than laying and decaying, you’ve gotten up and transformed your life, despite of it. But yeah, so what are your closing thoughts on that?

Wayne Forrest 48:30
Well, I think that’s beautiful. The Divide? No, take on what you’ve heard today, and love it. And to do that my closing thoughts would be look for the magic in life, you know, stay curious question every belief, because our belief system is what is limiting us. And our potential belief is a crazy thing that separates as well. So, you know, question, any belief, because if you question your beliefs, you’re going to find your truth.

Victoria Volk 49:12
Do you have any resource that you could share leave people with today?

Wayne Forrest 49:18
Well, I’ve got I’ve got a Facebook group, a private group that I’ve created just recently, and I’ve got a few challenges happening in that. I’ve got one coming out. But that depends when this is aired, but you can always join that it’s called Turning disability into a life of possibility and reach out on Facebook. When first Instagram went first in Zed. And look, you know, on most I, I’ve been growing my platforms, but I’m around

Victoria Volk 49:55
In the shownotes. I’ll have all your links. But I do want to mention, do you still have the resource on Your website the dream life blueprint?

Wayne Forrest 50:02
Yes, I do. That’s also another result. Another one, it’s a 15 minute recording, where I recommend, you know, just couple of times a day, morning and night. It’s a fantastic. It’s a beautiful little, if you like my voice, well, you know, it’s meditation of sorts, but it’s got the three elements. And there’s the vision, and that forgiveness, and that decision.

Victoria Volk 50:32
I love it. Anything else you would like to share?

Wayne Forrest 50:36
My night? I think we’ve, we’ve given so much, but just know that you have genius in you. And step into the unknown.

Victoria Volk 50:53
I love it. Thank you so much for your time today. You’ve inspired me, You’ve left me better than I was before I sat in this chair. So thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.

Ep 94 | Hannah Howard

Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Podcast | 0 comments

Hannah Howard | Food: My Perfect Obsession

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY: 

Anorexia nervosa: an eating disorder characterized by attempts to lose weight to the point of starvation.

Hannah believed she was destined to suffer in silence. Her obsession with food, body image, and a strive for perfection began in middle school. She was always the tallest in her class and developed early on as well. Hannah would go through periods of starving herself followed by an episode of bingeing. This went on through college and into her 20s when she finally “got sick and tired of being sick and tired.” One email to an author led to learning about a support group for those who are struggling with an eating disorder. This group opened her up to support, and a sense of community that aided her in dismantling the shame that had consumed her for so many years.

Years later, and married, it was a miscarriage that taught @hannahmhoward how to have compassion for herself in a way she hadn’t fully practiced.

One book, email, a phone call — action, can change your entire life.  Now 10 years into recovery, Hannah learned and wants to share that you’re not alone, and going through challenges alone doesn’t help with shame, if anything, it perpetuates it.

We all have a relationship with food, whether we have an eating disorder or not. And, like grief, there are so many ways we are misinformed and there are false beliefs we have been raised with that shape the rest of our lives.

CONNECT:

• Website
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• Book, Plenty

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NEED HELP?

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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.

Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.

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SUPPORT THE SHOW:

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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA: 

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Victoria Volk 0:00
Hi this is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year graver in advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers like spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Hannah Howard. She is a writer and food expert who spent her formative years in New York eating, drinking, serving bartending, cooking on a line flipping giant wheels of cheese and managing restaurants. She writes about delicious things teach us food writing classes. And her memoir, feast true love in and out of the kitchen debuted as ma’am Amazon’s number one best selling memoir in 2018. And her new book plenty, a memoir of food and family is out now. Thank you so much for being here.

Hannah Howard 1:35
Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to chat with you today.

Victoria Volk 1:39
And I was like kind of mentioned before we started recording that this is a very timely conversation for me. It just, I don’t know, food just keeps coming up in my world lately. Yeah, because really, we food. We have a relationship with food. It’s a relationship. And I mean, for me personally, I never was taught or shown or it wasn’t emulated for me that that is a real thing like to enjoy food or savor it or, you know, the preparation of it or, you know, anyway, we’ll get to that. But I’m interested in learning how your relationship to food started for you in childhood. And over the years.

Hannah Howard 2:26
Absolutely. I’ve always loved food. But it’s always been a little bit more complicated that complicated than that. The Love came, I feel very lucky that I grew up with a mom who’s a great cook and a food lover. And one of my best childhood memories. I grew up in Baltimore, and we used to go on these kind of to me, they were like great adventures to get groceries for the week. And we would go to this amazing local farmers market, we would go to the Mrs. mesterolone visit Mrs. Knox alone at this little Italian grocery store, where this propriety tests would be needing curds to make fresh mozzarella. And if I was lucky to get a taste, and we’d go to the nearest bakery and have this amazing hold on olives. And just I felt really lucky and like this was so fun. And then being part of that transformation, or my mom would cook us into ingredients into delicious things. But then from a very young age, I was also the tallest girl in my class, I was the first to get dressed. And I also just had a anxiety and a dissatisfaction with my body that felt really intense and kind of increasingly so as I grew up. And so on the one hand, I’ve had this really genuine joy and respect and love around food. And on the other hand, I’ve had a sort of fear and obsession around food. I messed around with all kinds of diets and this and that and trying to change my body. And this kind of morphed into an eating disorder that I’ve now thankfully been in recovery for for many years. But I think for me part of the journey and your right food is such a relationship that we all have has been untangling that first like that first really positive part from the really dark, hard part of my food relationship and really leaning into the former and kind of turning down the volume on all that fear, obsession, worry that used to take up such a huge part of my life.

Victoria Volk 4:39
How old were you when that started to develop?

Hannah Howard 4:42
I was really young, I think around middle school or even before I mean, I remember having these kinds of just feeling like my body was wrong and there was something wrong with me. And then around college it really kind of spiraled I, I had a I had a diagnosis in college of anorexia nervosa, which even at the time I was like, this is part of the story, but it’s not the whole story, because I was just kind of always in this limbo between trying to restrict my food and binging and my weight would go up and down. And it was really a painful way to live, I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. And then the anorexia kind of outwardly got better because I was at a normal weight. But I was not at any kind of peace with myself or with my food for several more years, until I kind of was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I had this last epic binge, and was really like using food as a weapon to hurt myself in a way to come back. Now I’m kind of grateful because it bothered me to reach out for help. And the reaching out for help was the beginning of really recovering, changing and repairing and healing my relationship with food. And myself

Victoria Volk 6:00
May I ask what was happening in your life, outwardly around you and your environment and things when this control things started to take shape?

Hannah Howard 6:11
So many things were so good, which was always kind of this felt like this mystery to me, like, you know, I had I grew up in Baltimore. And then when we were in high school, we moved to the New Jersey suburbs, which I was very unhappy about very mad at my parents. And I have always been kind of a city girl, and I loved New York City and wanted to go to college there. And I got into my, my dream school, I went to Columbia. And that was what I really wanted to do. And I was so excited. And to so many things were going on, I had some amazing friends, I had some amazing opportunities. And also meanwhile, so feast, my first book tells the story of working through restaurants, because that first part of this food relationship I described, I think was a huge piece in propelling me to get a get jobs around food. And so I worked in some amazing New York City, restaurants, cheese, cheese places, and really fell in love with that world. So there were so many things that were amazing in my life, I had a I have an incredible supportive family. But I had this like, deep secret. Because I was so ashamed of this eating disorder and my struggle with food, I didn’t feel safe telling anyone, I could barely admit it to myself, much less any friends or family. So it’s like a really lonely experience carrying this around. And I think looking back to there was this sort of big disconnect between things on the outside, which were good and things on the inside, which were miserable.

Victoria Volk 7:57
So where do you think that self hatred was coming from? Because I’m kind of digging further into this for people listening for parents, for mothers, I’m a mother, I have two teenage girls 12 Like she’s going to be 13 and a 15 year old pretty soon. So I’m really just interested in, you know, because when I look at their environment, like, we have great family life and things, you know, so I want some insight as a parent. And can you share a little bit about that?

Hannah Howard 8:31
Absolutely. I mean, I’m, I’m a parent, too. I’m a new new mom, I have an 18 month old daughter and congratulate expressed to them and thank you something. Yeah, yeah. And it’s something I think a lot about, because I think in some part, eating disorders are like, like, I think most addictions are kind of family disease. And I really, I don’t know how much of this is nature. And how much of this is nurture. I really don’t think that my family did anything wrong, but I do with a lot of compassion. And I’ve written about this, I did watch my mom’s struggle with her with her weight and her own kind of journey to accept herself and she was always on and off different diets and losing and gaining weight. And so I definitely don’t blame her. I think that we’re all a product of this diet culture that I’ve been learning more about. And the more I learned about it, the more I see that it’s, it’s really in the air we breathe, like we’re really taught these lessons kind of implicitly that like fitness is goodness. And I think slowly, slowly, slowly, that is starting to change. Even like when I was growing up. I never saw images of bodies that didn’t look like one very specific way. And I think now there are more images of bodies look other ways, but I think there’s still a long way to Go. So I it’s really tough I don’t, and I and I hope like, I really don’t want to pass this on to my kids. But I also don’t know how much control that any one of us has decides, I know that the best thing I can do for myself is to continue to recover myself and, you know, build this my own positive relationship with, with all this stuff. And then the rest. I wish I had a better answer.

Victoria Volk 10:32
No, I think you’d think you kind of did. And I think really just like how we are taught. I have a post coming up about this, because I read I came across something on the web the other day, and it kind of just the person stated that children don’t know how to grieve. And that really rubbed me the wrong way. Because we come out of the womb, knowing how to grieve, we come out of the womb crying. And for the next two to, you know, for the next first three years of our life, we’re expressing ourselves openly and without a without any thought of who am I going to offend? If I cry or who you know what I mean, we don’t have it, we naturally express ourselves up until the point, because by age three, we’ve learned almost 75% of the skills that we need to deal with difficult challenges in our life. Can you believe that by age three. So those early years are the most formative for setting the foundation for relationship to food, or how we grieve, right? So I mean, there’s a lot that I wish I could undo in that regard, because I wasn’t healing myself either. Like in my grief, it took me many years. And so I look back of how different of a mom, I meant I am today, I’m sure you look at your experience, and oh, my gosh, almost thankful for that experience, because it makes you a better parent. Right. having had that experience. It’s emulating what a healthy relationship to food looks like, what grieving looks like, in a healthy way. And so no, I think that’s a great answer. I mean, that’s basically what you had said, and the best thing we can do as parents is to heal ourselves to work on ourselves. Yeah,

Hannah Howard 12:31
Yeah, absolutely. Which is a lot harder than, Oh, yeah, this thing or you know, just yeah, just do this thing. It’s a lot of like, deeper work. But I think it’s absolutely true.

Victoria Volk 12:43
I just done 60 minutes last night, I was watching I don’t know if you saw the whole Facebook whistleblower story, but if you watch the news piece, she actually added and went on to say that Facebook’s own research into Instagram verifies and shows that Instagram is actually harmful for teenage girls, it is doing more harm than good. And they had actually talked about creating a platform for Instagram for teens or for younger for the younger people. But they’ve put that on the backburner. And it just makes me think that jeez, I wonder I never really gave it much thought because my my oldest daughter is on Instagram. And yeah, it’s really making me rethink that, you know, what’s come up for me too. And preparing for this episode is me reflecting on my own relationship to food and how I tend to not eat when I get like in the zone or I’m in I can. Oh, it’s three o’clock. I haven’t eaten anything. My daughter has actually. She will feed me. She will bring me food to make sure that I eat. But so yes, I’m this is I mean, I told you before we started recording that this is really a timely conversation for me too. So I again, thank you for sharing your story. What I would like to hear is more about that turning point for you. And then that what that has looked like since

Hannah Howard 14:27
The turning point of kind of from from the struggle to the other.

Victoria Volk 14:32
Like you were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like I’ve said that about that’s what happened last night I said to myself when I was like just like had one word loss experience. I’m like, I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired. Yeah.

Hannah Howard 14:44
Yeah. So I think I really thought for many years that I was this was just something that I was going to have to deal with and struggle with and slog through forever, like it was just my burden and light If to bear this, and I am kind of so glad that I reached that point, I guess like people talk, like alcoholics and stuff talk about like a bottom or, I mean, it really felt like that, to me, it was just like, it was just so exhausting to keep by at this point, I was kind of, I would get this like new resolution to diet harder and to really restrict, and I would for, I don’t know, sometimes it was days, sometimes it was weeks, sometimes it was months. But then it would always and I think also biologically, like, we’re not supposed to starve ourselves, our bodies are really smart, and they want to be nourished. And then so I would, and then inevitably, it would result the pendulum would swing the other way. And it would result in some sort of binge, and then I’d feel ashamed and embarrassed and vow to diet better and harder next time. And that went on, like for many years, and it’s just not a really fun way to live at all. I think kind of breaking these promises to ourselves is really hard. The shame was really hard. Like I said, before the loneliness, I think that was really what got me, because I was just hiding this from or trying to hide it. I think people really close to me probably, were smart enough to see something was going on. But so I, let’s see. So I went at the time I because I was looking for like answer. You know, while part of me felt like, this was my life, another part of me had some hope. And I was looking at, you know, so I would read, I was kind of embarrassed. So go to the Self Help section of Barnes and Noble, and kind of like, choose a book that felt more like intellectual or something. But then I have a different book. And I was reading something. And when the author was a coach, and I just on a whim, decided to email her. And I think I couldn’t, you know, I was in my early 20s, I couldn’t afford her services. But she I think she offered to talk with me for like, a few minutes on the phone very generously. And she suggested this group that met for eating disorder recovery, and I didn’t even expect like it, it sort of came out to her. I didn’t even expect that I was going to talk about this. And I kind of felt like I had nothing to lose. And I went and it was just it was kind of like a lightbulb experience to hear people share out loud. The things that kind of went on in my like in the deepest, darkest crevices of my mind, but had never spoken out loud. And then not only did they say these things like things that they did with food, their own their own feelings, their own complicated stories. And then they would just like laugh and give each other hugs. And my mind was blown. I was like, What is this, it felt weird, it felt definitely uncomfortable. I was nervous. But I was like, this is incredible. I think I’m so grateful for a part of me that felt like anything, so much of that was just being around people who understood what I was going through. And I kept going back, and I met people who understood. And I think that was this huge shift of not doing this not trying to do this alone, not in the secret corner of Barnes and Noble with my secret book, but having people to share with honestly and openly and people who had been where I had been. But now we’re doing we’re experiencing life and food and their bodies in a totally different way. And it gave me this kind of hope that something else really was possible. And there was a different way for me to live.

Victoria Volk 18:59
So in conjunction with the group that you met with you, did you do therapy as well? Or what kind of along with that helped you the most?

Hannah Howard 19:09
Yes, I did. And I’m still go to therapy today, which I find incredibly helpful. But you know, I had gone to therapy before I had gone a few times in high school in college. And I feel like it could only for me anyway, it was nothing. I think I probably saw wonderful therapists but they could only work with what I was willing to share and where I was willing to show how I was willing to show up. And I wasn’t I just feel like I wasn’t quite ready. And something about this group I think made me feel like I was and so that work that I was doing in therapy felt so much more like it was getting to the heart of things and I was so much more willing to be honest, even when it was hard and so yeah, therapy has really helped the group has really helped. Sometimes just like time has helped. And even little like, there’s just so many little actions that have added up what we just talked about Instagram. Like being really mindful about who I follow on Instagram helps how I spend my time. Just these little little choices I make throughout the day that either can support my recovery or not so much.

Victoria Volk 20:27
And what does that look like today? What does recovery look like? And how, how many years has it been?

Hannah Howard 20:34
It’s been almost 10 years now, which is amazing. Yeah, so it looks really different. You know, when I was in the beginning, early stages, I would go to these groups like all the time, and I was, I mean, I’m 30, I just turned 34. So it was a different time in my life. And I had more time to kind of really dig in, I would make phone calls to fellow people in recovery, I read everything I could, I was really like, kind of seeking it out as if my life depended on it, which it did. But then over the years, like, my life has grown in these amazing waves. And I’m, a few years ago, I got married, and I have kids. And I also published books and do other and have busy work. And so life has has gotten bigger. And so I feel like I’ve had but I’ve really, it’s really been important for me to keep recovery as a sort of foundation in my life. Because I know that without it, all those other things don’t go too well at all. So, but it, but I don’t go to like all these meetings all the time, I don’t know. But I still see my therapist, I still have a community of people that I’ve met in these groups that I text or call on occasion and they’re they’ve become friends who I really value. And you know, when things. I think it’s like another living inside of my own brain and heart. And it’s like a completely different experience than it was 10 years ago. But I still I think I always will I still have moments where like, I look at a picture of myself and I freak out or I eat something and then my get so my brain so noisy about like, what was that what’s gonna happen. And they, when that happens, I kind of have a plan of how to deal with it, I have, again, like people to it, sometimes worse, in my head, it’s always better when I can just like share it with someone kind of dissipates. And I kind of think about how I can I could either go down that road of obsession and kind of stay in that misery. Or I can turn my thoughts elsewhere. And what else can I do? How can I be present in my life? And I tried to choose that second option as much as I can.

Victoria Volk 22:55
Do you believe you’d be where you are now had you? Well, a not had that experience. And be would still feel that torment within you? And I know the answer. But I want to hear you.

Hannah Howard 23:11
know, I mean, I think this, this has shaped who I am in so many ways. And so many of those ways I believe are for the better. I think dealing with this has given me so much compassion for what, you know, not everyone has an eating disorder. But everyone has that, you know, everyone struggles, everyone has something, whatever it is, you know, it doesn’t have to be a substance it can be with relationships, it can be with work, it can be with money, it can be you know, we all like we all have our stuff. And I so I think it’s really given me not only that compassion for others, but also so much more kindness and compassion for myself. Because my first like go to is to be incredibly hard on myself and such a perfectionist and incredibly mean to myself. And a big thing too, that I’m learning and recovery is to like, slowly ease up on that and and it’s also given me a way to connect with other people. I used to really think that I was supposed to present this sort of shiny, perfect exterior, and that’s how I would like win acceptance in the world. But it’s like, that’s not what appeals to me about other people. And you know, people don’t share stories about how they were awesome. They share embarrassing stories because like, you know, there’s something about humanity that we relate to the hard stuff. And so it’s just given me such a better understanding, I think and I think it’s made me a better I think a better mom, a better friend, a better writer. All of that.

Victoria Volk 24:48
Yeah. And when you said, you know, everyone has their stuff, but everyone, every single person has a relationship to food. All of us do.

Hannah Howard 24:57
That’s true human you know. Not again, not everyone has an eating disorder. But that doesn’t mean everyone has like a perfect rosy relationship with food it can be hard for, for all of us at times.

Victoria Volk 25:10
Well, and here’s my question. This is actually one of the things I wrote down. So, you know, when we think of eating disorder, we think of anorexia or bulimia, but what about addictions? Like an addiction to sugar? And is that addiction to sugar perpetuated by the food industry? And so, don’t you? You know, so what do you have to say about that? What are your thoughts?

Hannah Howard 25:31
Yeah I think yeah, right. I think, you know, that was I think that was part of my uneasiness with having an eating disorder was that I had this idea of this like, little blonde anorexic girl from like, an after school special. But eating disorders don’t always look like that at all right, they anorexia and bulimia exist as binge eating disorder, as does. There’s a in the official diagnostic manual, there’s, it’s called eg N. O. ‘s eating disorder not otherwise specified, which was my diagnosis for a long time, which is like the most frustrating diagnosis because what does that mean? But um, it’s so true. There’s so many ways to have like, disorder, like a lack of order in our lives around food. And, you know, people have all this also gets kind of thought of as like a privilege to young woman’s disease. But that’s not the case. Like men struggle with this. People of all backgrounds, and experiences. I was also kind of like, I read stuff about how like, oh, French people have this amazing relationship with food. And then I also met like, French people in my recovery group. It’s like, No, this anyone can, anyone can struggle with this. And it can look all different ways. And definitely, like, sort of the binge, right, there’s a restricting side. And then there’s a binging overeating side, too. And I think, I do think of my eating disorder as an addiction, not necessarily to like a substance, there’s a lot of controversy within the recovery community. Whether or not like sugar is addictive. I’m not a doctor, like, I don’t know. But for me, what is the addiction was kind of the obsession, like making food, this huge power over my life and my day, and you know, waking up in the morning and thinking about what I ate the day before, and not determining whether it was a good day or not, like that sort of thing. It really did feel like an addictive behavior. And then just the things I would do with food, the sneaking it, the lying about it, that just this obsession, so I think that there are a lot of parallels with addiction, whether or not I don’t know whether food is addictive, but it certainly can be I mean, we’ve all had that experience, right of like, starting to eat something and then being like, oh, my gosh, it’s gone. What happened? So yeah, it’s, it’s complicated

Victoria Volk 28:00
It’s very multi layered. And thank you for bringing up that it’s not just this blonde small girl problem in that because my son, actually 16 and he was the smallest kid in his class, scrawny thin, bone, I mean, bony structure, but I was the littlest always. And people would say, all the time we did to her literally is Oh, you’re so little, you’re so scrawny, or, you know, that’s not healthy, either. Like, I’m owning that as his parent that I probably was no help to that situation, either. And, you know, he had this growth spurt. You know, he started lifting weights, he started like doing push ups and things like that when he was like 12 or 13. And started, you know, he wanted protein powders, and he started to lift weights, and now he’s, you know, he put on I think, 40 pounds and on like, a little over a year or about a year, and he comes back to school, and we were like, Whoa, you know, like he’s transformed his body because of the hard work that he put into it. But you know, and I saw the difference it made in his confidence. And, and now again, he he’s talking about, he really loves lifting weights and stuff. And so he’s really talking about the next year he wants to put on even more weight and, and but it just this again, this conversation is so timely because I think it’s really important that it’s it’s not about exactly what it’s not because I said you know, it’s not it matters what you eat to put on the weight. You know, you don’t want to just eat a bunch of junk. You know, it really is something that I should probably pick up your book.

Hannah Howard 29:45
Yeah, yeah. Because we all have to like live in a body right? So, of course, and there’s nothing wrong with like taking care of your body and right like, you know, that’s awesome that your son like wanted to do these things. and accomplish them. But when it becomes what our bodies become, like our sense of worth self worth, then it’s now no longer. Right? It’s not right sized, sort of I, it’s, it’s hard, it’s hard, it’s hard to find that balance. And

Victoria Volk 30:16
That’s what I’m feeling. That’s what I’m feeling as a parent as his parents, like, you know, do I encourage this, you know, it’s like, you know, you’re perfect the way you are, like, that’s, that’s how you were made? And, you know, I don’t know, like, I have those feelings about myself, you know, we all have this is an everybody problem. Yeah, you know, I don’t care who you are. Because again, comes back to we all have a relationship to food. So when you were really struggling, what was something that was really helpful to you that and how other people supported you.

Hannah Howard 30:57
I think, for me, I hope I’m not a broken record with this. But it was such a relief to realize that I wasn’t alone with this because I did feel so kind of weird and like I there was something wrong with me, I must be broken. And just to meet these, like amazing men, and we’re mostly mostly women, but some men who are who are who I really like admired and who are really impressive people, but they also struggled with this and had so much kindness and a willingness to listen and share and connect that was just that was just hugely transformative for me, just that realization that it’s not some sort of moral issue that I have struggled with. This doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. And it’s and and one of the reasons to wanted to write and share my story is just like this deep breath of relief of not being alone, I still feel I may still feel that way, like 10 years into this journey, like, oh,

Victoria Volk 32:03
Well, I think in grief, too. And that’s why my, I’ve said this on a few podcasts when it’s come up. But the graphic the art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone, right? Because you feel so alone, and you feel like, like you’re screaming in the inside and in the like, and when you say something, and no one’s listening, or they don’t know what to say, or how to support you.

Hannah Howard 32:28
Yeah so just that, like I’m here. I’m sending you love, like those little things. They make such a difference, or they have to me for sure.

Victoria Volk 32:37
Do you think a part of that obsession was to feel a sense of control in your life? I think maybe as teenagers especially like, you feel like you have no control in your life. And so I think it’s common. I mean, is that like,

Hannah Howard 32:52
Oh, absolutely, definitely. I think it right. Yeah, I mean, even today, like life is my experience with the with this pandemic, where there’s so many unknowns in the world, and being a new mom or personal life sometimes feels really hard. And right through this, this like substance that, at least we think anyway, we can control. So that was a huge part of it for me. And this kind of fantasy that if right, if like, My food is somehow perfect, that other things will be perfect, too. But it doesn’t really work out that way. Unfortunately,

Victoria Volk 33:29
I’m gonna tie this to Grief, because in grief, one of the sterbs often mentioned or that people struggle with is with food. And with the pandemic, and people have lost people in their life and or maybe their job or they’re struggling with, maybe they’ve lost friendships over the divide that’s happened and all of the stuff that’s going on, I just want people to reflect on what their relationship is to food today versus pre pandemic like, and how has that changed for them?

Hannah Howard 34:06
I’ve heard from friends and colleagues in the eating disorder world and read some things that it’s it’s a really tough time for. I mean, it makes sense because this is a tough time for so many people, like you said for so many different reasons. And maybe food is also a symptom that shows up in people’s lives. But I know that like eating disorder units and hospitals have been completely overbooked, and therapists have no room on their schedules. And I think this has come up in the last year and a half or so many so many of us. Yeah

Victoria Volk 34:39
But the route isn’t the food. That’s what you know, and that’s why I want to feel like it’s important to say and it’s grief. Grief is the issue. You know, grief is grief is our secondary pandemic to the pandemic but I do think it was our pandemic well before the pandemic. So what would you give for Tip Two? Someone who might be struggling today,

Hannah Howard 35:02
Again, to remind you that you’re not alone. You know, there’s so many people out there who are struggling to or who have been through really, really, really hard, dark stuff and kind of come out the other side. And I would also say that, you know, this too shall pass. And people have told me that before. And sometimes it’s like, no, this is I’m going to feel this way forever. But even the most painful, awful feelings, dissipate with time and some some kindness. So it’s not going to feel this way forever.

Victoria Volk 35:44
I want to reflect something back to you. Because I think it’s not just time, but you actually took action. Yeah, you sent an email that changed the trajectory of your life experience that led to that group that you kept going back to for support. So you took action. I just wanted to highlight that.

Hannah Howard 36:06
Yes, I think that’s huge, too. And I think sometimes when we’re feeling at our worst, like, action, just feel so overwhelming. But right, even that a little little like one email a little step a little showing up reaching out to someone making a call, taking a moment for yourself, whatever it is, like these small actions really add up and create momentum and for me, have led to change in a big way.

Victoria Volk 36:35
Yeah, growth is not in our comfort zones, for sure. So yeah, congratulations for stepping out. And I’m curious to how when you found out you’re pregnant with your first daughter, was that just kind of another hurdle that you felt like you had to like, kind of tackle because, you know, with my first I gained like, a ton of weight a ton of weight? And I yeah, my relationship to food was horrible. was horrible, then do. But so can you tell me, you know, just kind of dig into that a little bit, like the pregnancy. And,

Hannah Howard 37:10
Sure, well, my first pregnancy ended up with a miscarriage, which was one of the hardest things that I’ve been through, which was really tough. And even though it wasn’t necessarily, I mean, it is very different than an eating disorder. But I felt some similar feelings and that my body had let me down. And so that kind of disappointment with my body, in a way was familiar, although the scope felt bigger and sadder, because and then, pretty soon thereafter, we got I got pregnant again, and had a healthy pregnancy and had my daughter, Simone. And I was really kind of gearing up for because I’ve heard so many stories of people. I’ve heard people, you know, the doctor is shaming them about gaining too much weight during their pregnancy or right, they can’t stop eating, like, you know, weird combinations of food are so hard on so many stories that I was worried about what was going to happen, but I feel like it was really things to recovery, that I was able to trade it pretty much trust my body. I definitely like I was nauseous in the early days, and I ate a ton of bagels, butter, which is like not a huge part of my usual diet. But that’s what felt good. And I’m so grateful that I could just okay, that’s, that’s, you know, I ate a lot of bagels of butter for a few months. Nothing bad, nothing bad came in that, you know, I feel like very lucky that it was a much more positive and serene experience than I had expected that it would be. And I definitely gained weight. And it’s definitely had uncomfortable thoughts. Because, you know, as women were really taught that like, even like any kind of weight gain is like taboo in a way even when we’re growing a baby. But I was also like, so proud of my body like it made this amazing, baby. And, you know, people had said, I’ve heard this advice in recovery and in general for having like a healthy body image to kind of appreciate your body for what it does, right for we’re giving hugs, we’re walking around, we’re, you know, all these things that our bodies do, instead of how they look. But that, to me, that was just kind of like words. And then But then once my body was like making a baby, it felt that felt really real like whoa, this is crazy. It’s wild, you know that we grow babies inside of ourselves. So it gave me a whole new it gave me a really new appreciation for my body and how amazing it was.

Victoria Volk 39:58
Do you think that actually to help train form, like, and kind of trickled into your relationship with food too. But you know, because I think it really comes down to self love, right? Like self love,

Hannah Howard 40:10
Absolutely. And I still hold on to that, like we all do, you know, we all kind of, it’s not like one day we’re sick. And then the next day were completely perfectly well, like, we kind of have these old ideas. And I think that there’s still a part of me that was trapped, like, you know, that was kind of like thought it was always better to eat something that was later. Like, there’s always a little part of me that wanted to restrict my food. And that kind of turned off when I was pregnant. Because also, I was just like, really hungry. But I didn’t feel that judgment towards myself, because I was like, No, I’m, I’m very new person. And, yeah, I think it’s really been a positive thing for my food and body relationship.

Victoria Volk 40:57
How about postpartum?

Hannah Howard 40:59
Yeah, um, I mean, I feel like I had such an intense postpartum experience, because it was right at those early days of pandemic times. Where, so I, we ended up kind of packing up my parents car, because my husband and I lived in an apartment in New York City, and moving in with my parents for a while. And so we had thought I got into this, like, late, and I’m a food writer. And so you know, my life has always involved like, going to eat all these wonderful restaurant meals, and hosting cheese tastings, and, and then all of a sudden, we were like, going to the grocery store as little as we could, you know, stocking up, and it’s early days. And so food was really different. But it was also kind of nice to like, cook, you know, cook our own meals, and my mom was a great cook, and she cooked a lot for us, which was such a treat. So it was interesting, and it was an eye and I was worried, too, you know, I’ve heard these people like, fear about their bodies changing and all these crazy ways. And my body changed in a lot of ways. And I and I don’t necessarily feel like amazing about all of them. But it was it was like, okay, you know, I ended up fitting into my clothes that I was wearing before pregnancy, like perfectly fine with some time. And I kind of felt like the left side, the left I obsessed about it, the more things just kind of worked out and took care of themselves. And I hope that that’s the case for the second time around.

Victoria Volk 42:48
Well, and I think a key component to that is having support along the way to, you know, you said to me with therapy, and you have, you know, family that supports you and, and all of that. And I think that’s so important and the friendships that you’ve made throughout recovery that you still have. And

Hannah Howard 43:07
Absolutely, because there’s definitely still like, shaky moments and anxious moments that I have. And I think we all do, but they used to really just like take over my life and now they’re just a small a small part of the day.

Victoria Volk 43:22
Well, it’s just like when this when the when a special day comes around, you know, an anniversary of the death of someone or diagnosis or something like that, you know what’s coming and you kind of can plan for it. But many Grievers that’s they have to take that time and give themselves the time to take care of themselves during those days, and it’s recognizing within ourselves what we need. What would you like to scream to the world in wish people knew about your, your grief and experience?

Hannah Howard 43:53
Well, let’s see. I felt let’s see go for in terms of grief. I was kind of shocked how deeply sad and how much loss I felt when I lost this pregnancy. And I think in a way in a similar way to the eating disorder experience. It really helped me I what I started to, I remember like just a few days later watching these clips and on YouTube of Beyonce talking about her pregnancy loss. And it was like, Oh, hey, Beyonce went through this. I mean, I don’t I’m not I like Beyonce, but I’m not like I’m not like obsessed with Beyonce or something but it’s just it felt so healing or reading. I’m reading other people’s stories. And I think just that like you are not alone. You have people who love you. We can get through this together.

Victoria Volk 44:56
Throughout your grief experience what has given you the most joy And, and what gives you hope for the future? Like throughout this whole journey?

Hannah Howard 45:05
Yeah, I think it really is like we kind of touched on this crazy alchemy of how something that felt like the worst part of my life, certainly, like, the most painful, shameful stuff became this really positive thing in a way because it helped me show up in a, in such a deeper way. It helped me connect with people who I really love today and help to me, it helps me kind of grow emotionally and like as a human. So I feel like that still, to me feel feels wild that what I thought was, the worst thing has turned out to be something that I’m grateful for, like genuinely. And if you would have told me that, like years ago would have made me laugh, but it’s true.

Victoria Volk 45:55
I would say the same thing about my life. And it comes back to your books. And those wouldn’t be out today, if you wouldn’t have had this experience. And you wouldn’t be where you are today with recovery.

Hannah Howard 46:10
Yeah, I got this new book.

Victoria Volk 46:11
It’s a beautiful cover.

Hannah Howard 46:14
Thank you. Yeah, it’s really I really love how it came out. Yeah, and it feels like such a joy. I mean, I’ve always loved to write and always wanted to write a book and Nigeria, getting to do that and just feels like the biggest privilege.

Victoria Volk 46:29
So you never imagined yourself as an author,

Hannah Howard 46:33
I hope to be a published author, but it felt a little bit like a pipe dream. And now, my reality.

Victoria Volk 46:38
So tell us a little bit about your books.

Hannah Howard 46:41
Absolutely. So the first book called Feast. They’re both memoirs. So they’re both both personal stories. The first one is about this journey, working through restaurants and food stores, and falling in love with food and also about the struggle and recovery from the eating disorder. So it’s really a book about my like food and journey. And then plenty is about meeting my husband. It’s about experiencing this miscarriage and then again, a pregnancy. And it’s also about finding a community of amazing women in the food world. So there’s a chapter about a cheesemaker. There’s a chapter about a Somali a, there’s a chapter about a barge pilot who barges around the South of France to amazing food. So you know, it starts with myself. But then I also talk about all these other other amazing food women.

Victoria Volk 47:43
Very nice thing else you’d like to share?

Hannah Howard 47:45
I think that’s it. Thank you so much. But what a joy to get to talk. And thank you for your beautiful question.

Victoria Volk 47:54
Thank you so much for being here. And where can people find you if they want to reach out?

Hannah Howard 47:59
I have a website, hannahhoward.nyc and I’m on Instagram. I’m hannahmhoward

Victoria Volk 48:07
And I will put the links for the books and your contact info on the show notes. Thank you again, for this timely conversation. I know I’m going to reflect on it well after today. And give honestly more deep thought into my personal relationship with food in how I want to emulate how important it is that we really truly think about our food in a nourishing way. For spirit for bodies, rather than like this thing that you just have to eat to sustain yourself just so you wake up tomorrow, you know, it’s like, it’s it’s more than just that right?

Hannah Howard 48:53
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. I mean, right. We do have to eat to sustain ourselves. But then, yeah, there’s sort of concentric circles for sure. Yeah, I feel like I’ve also been writing about food for so many years. And every time I think, am I gonna get bored of this? Like, no, there’s so much more to explore, and so many levels and ways that it touches on us, culturally, and emotionally and historically, and agriculturally and environmentally and just a huge, a huge topic. And it’s so rich and I love getting to explore it.

Victoria Volk 49:30
It is I think is there’s so many layers to it. I never really thought a lot of it either until I was preparing for our conversation. And I mean, you think about it, it touches our economy, our homes, and it stems back to our childhood and our culture and how we were raised with food and just all of it Yeah, it’s fascinating, fascinating. So I look forward to digging in a little bit more into my own real nation ship with food prompted by our conversation and your great share, so thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.