Ep 90 | Jill Johnson

Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Parenting, Podcast | 0 comments

Jill Johnson-Young | Rebellious Widow x2

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY

I asked this week’s guest, Jill Johnson-Young, the following question:
“How are you still upright?”

@RebelliousWidow experienced the loss of Linda, her first love, after 23 years. Linda had survived breast cancer but later succumbed to pulmonary fibrosis which was due to the chemo she received to beat the breast cancer.

Jill would find herself, what she calls, a “rebellious widow” once more after her love, Casper, died of Lewy Body Dementia after 3 1/2 years.

The capacity to love is plentiful in Jill’s heart, along with Linda and Casper, who were also co-parents in their own time, to at-risk children who needed it most; children who had experienced grief and trauma, too. Jill weaves in stories of being an adoptive parent throughout this episode, providing tips and guidance in supporting grieving children.

We are all “built” differently. Our environments, family unit, generational beliefs passed down, personal experience, our own uniqueness, and more all add to the tapestry of our lives. And, altogether greatly influence how we respond to grief and trauma.

Growing up within a family unit that openly talked about death, dying, and grief at the kitchen table, Jill learned valuable lessons that would shape her path forward as a clinical social worker and set her up to embrace the grief that was to come rather than run from it.

We talk about so many areas of grief and loss, as it pertains to children, death and dying, hospice/palliative care, boundaries, and the how of getting through it all.

We are taught how to acquire things/people, not what to do when we lose them. Let this episode bring hope to your sorrowful heart if you are grieving today.

As Jill states, “You can still go to Disney if you’re grieving!”

RESOURCES:

• Book, The Rebellious Widow
• Tools & Resources
• Grief Recovery Method

CONTACT:

• Website
• Private Practice Website
• Facebook
• Instagram

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NEED HELP?

• National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
• Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor

Free grief resources are HERE.

Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.

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SUPPORT THE SHOW:

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Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non Grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours in this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. This week. I have Jill Johnson young she is a licensed clinical social worker, former hospice social worker and administrator and co founded a large group private practice in Riverside in Marietta, California. She also teaches courses for therapists and allied health professionals on grief and loss and dementia and is the author of five books for adults and children on grief. She also provides a free monthly dementia support group online, and does a Facebook group chat with Deborah Joy Hart every Friday at 10am. Pacific Time, chills, all grief and loss and dementia with a smile and a positive outlook after being widowed twice and finding your own new life twice. She is now married to a funeral home Director. Thank you so much for being here. And for for having me. Yeah, you have a book though. You’re the rebellious widow all the time. Yeah. And it’s a practical guide to love and life after loss. And so let’s I imagine that’s what brings you to grieving voices. And

Jill Johnson 2:05
Is indeed I reached out because I saw and heard your podcast. And I love having a chance to share the story. And the idea that grief is something you can come out of and come on come out on the other side and make really good positive changes as a result of it. And still keep your loved one with you.

Victoria Volk 2:26
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a death sentence for the ones still living, right?

Jill Johnson 2:31
It doesn’t it’s not Rose Kennedy that quote that she has is just mash. Is that me every time I hear it.

Victoria Volk 2:38
And what is that? Again?

Jill Johnson 2:39
She has a quote this says something about love. His grief is the measure of your love. And you will grieve forever if you love them. And that’s just not true. I mean, it can be if you choose to, but it doesn’t have to be true.

Victoria Volk 2:56
Well, the thing about that quote is, is that not all relationships are loving. But that doesn’t mean you don’t experience grief in less than loving relationships. In fact, they’re the ones that artists Yes, absolutely. That is a true testament to loving those that are hard to love. Right?

Jill Johnson 3:18
Right. Or he didn’t ever love us in the way that we needed them to.

Victoria Volk 3:22
Exactly. Yeah, right. I think we’re on the same page there for sure. Let’s dig into it. What’s what is your story?

Jill Johnson 3:30
Well, I was married to Linda for 23 years, and she had breast cancer in the first 10 years. We were told in an honor July morning after a routine mammogram. Ladies don’t forget your mammogram routine mammogram, something the size of a piece sitting on her chest wall was stage three with 14 positive notes. She had a mammogram they did an ultrasound they called in a surgeon right that in their care that you don’t get anymore. And within a month she’d had a mastectomy. She’d asked for bilateral the surgeon refused. She asked for a port in that surgery because she knew I worked for hospice at the time I took her scans to our doc. We knew it was serious. The surgeon wouldn’t do it. So she had to have two surgeries in the space of five days. We would see the oncologist behind his back because he wouldn’t release her oncology because he said she’s not going to need chemo. Yet 14 positive notes folks, you need chemo. And the oncologist looked at us and said, Yeah, I’m gonna throw everything at this but you’re gonna be dead by December. And you sort of feel like the floor pulls out from under you that date of diagnosis is a real thing. There’s two DL DS in our world. The date you get the diagnosis and the date they die. And so we went to work they did throw everything at her she had to work all the way through chemo. because we lived in Florida at the time, and we didn’t have benefits that we could cover each other. She went back to work two days after that mastectomy with the drains in place, and she was a warrior. And she beat the cancer, she died cancer free. What she didn’t do, right, and she was so proud of that. So proud of it. What you didn’t do was beat the pulmonary fibrosis, which was brought on by the chemotherapy, which was absolutely necessary and gave us 10 more years we would have been, and time to adopt our kids. And you know, time to have another full half of our life together. But ultimately, one of the medicines that she was given causes loss of heart and lung function. And she died of pulmonary fibrosis, fibrosis and heart failure. After 20, close to 23 years, we were just shy of that. She was 58 years old. And while she was dying, she was on hospice, because I was a hospice social worker. And of course, we’re going to have hospice, and we’re gonna have it sooner than later. Because I’m a hospice social worker. And I asked for hospice, one of her nurses was very unique. She walked up to our door the first day, and she had a very deep southern drawl. And she said, my name is Casper. I’m your hospice nurse. I thought oh my god, the Friendly Ghost is now the hospice nurse and this crazy house with two kids a third, we were in the process of adopting at 16. You know, I don’t know how many cats and dogs and other creatures we had in the house. Okay, now we’ve got the Friendly Ghost this fits. They turned out to be good friends. They hung out together. Casper came over while I was at work. I didn’t even know about it. They had the same background. They drank the same icky, horrible chocolate sodas. They were two peas in a pod. And ultimately, before Linda died, she told everybody who would listen that she wanted me to marry Casper after death. And I kept saying, Yeah, Fantasy Island was canceled. Except now it’s back. Did you know that there’s a new fantasy island? Yes. And

Jill Johnson 7:14
We’ve all said no, she died a very peaceful death, which I’m very grateful for. And Casper was there attending at the time she died. And I broke all the widow rules. We went out for coffee. It turned out when there was right. We ended up married. I lost some people because every time someone dies, you lose people. You don’t just lose the person who dies, you lose other people that either disappeared during the illness because terminal illness is scary. Or they disappear and vote with their feet because they don’t like a grief. You’re not doing you’re doing it too fast, too slow to this not enough of that. They disappear. They vote with their feet. But when you’re a widow when you remarry, yeah, they really vote with their feet. And Casper and I were married and we had a wonderful time together. And then six months in, we were on a Lanai in Hawaii, and she threw her coffee cup. And she’d had weird dreams that night. And coffee time in our house is sacrosanct. Right? You don’t interrupt it. You don’t speak for the first cup, and there goes the coffee cup. And I said what was that? And she said, I don’t know. My hand did that by itself. And that was Lily by dementia announcing itself. So she was having psychotic episodes immediately. She was having memory loss. She lost her ability to smile almost immediately. Lewy body comes on like gangbusters, especially early onset. And so she she and I spent almost three years looking for doctors looking for the right diagnosis. I finally suggested the diagnosis to the doctor. And he agreed that it was Lewy body. We looked at the scans, you could see the Lewy bodies on the brainstem. And she died within three and a half years. And her death was not peaceful. And part of the people who stuck in there with me to help take care of her. And who took care of Linda, she met with Linda and me to make her final arrangements came in took Linda from our home after she died. She also made arrangements for Casper was Stacy, a funeral director. And she also saw my posts I wrote blogs the whole time they were sick and dying. Because I didn’t have time to talk to people. Right? I’m a therapist as social worker. I don’t know any therapists who talk on the phone voluntarily after hours anyway. I won’t. Unless it’s my mom or my kids. The phone is not going to get answered. So Stacy started seeing how hard things were sort of coming by in the evenings so I could take a nap. We had Casper his brother Jay staying with us and he was helping and then I would stay up all night with her because she wasn’t safe and ultimately after caspers death, Stacy and I married. And so it makes me rebellious, but sometimes to wow, wow, we do grief and loss all the time. Some of our date nights were in the prep room. So yeah,

Victoria Volk 10:16
You know, interesting life, we here have I, first of all, to love once and lose that person as one thing. But to love twice and lose both, that’s an entirely different experience that I don’t know anything about. And so it stinks. But you know, what I can’t imagine,

Jill Johnson 10:39
To have been loved that intensely twice. And then a third time, I mean, very few people find the kind of love that I had with either one of them. And I’ve had three i no complaints, and each one of them set me off into my next life. Literally,

Victoria Volk 10:58
That’s what I was gonna. That’s what I was gonna say. It’s like, you hear stories and like, the choices and decisions we make often lead to the next thing that we can’t even often see the future. We don’t even anticipate or expect it, but, but I’ve never heard it with relationships like that kind of happening in that way. And so that’s pretty remarkable and stars aligned.

Jill Johnson 11:24
They did. They did I, neither one of them would have wanted me to be alone, as Linda was especially adamant. Because she just did, I had three teenage girls, they were a year apart. I was in the middle of adopting a 16 year old. So yeah, she knew that that help was needed. And she knew the kids like Casper,

Victoria Volk 11:46
And how did you manage their emotions and your emotions in Linda’s emotions as she knew what was coming in caspers emotions? Because, you know, obviously, I’m sure that the children were very familiar with Casper and a part of her life as well. And so it’s not just your loss twice.

Jill Johnson 12:07
Oh no, there were multiple losses for all of us. Yeah. And the reason I was adopted my 16 year old is, she’s the half sibling to my youngest. And their birth mother had died in the fall before. And we discovered she was back in foster care in LA. And so we took placement of her. And then the very much wanted to adopt her, she was on the bucket list. So she was placed with for placed with us for adoption, before Linda’s death. And then I adopted her as a single parent. So there were lots of emotions. And in our house, we talked really openly when it comes to death and dying. The kids had already lost grandparents, my 16 year old had lost both of her parents, she was an orphan, when she was placed with me. So it was a no secrets, no holds barred. We did have some behavior from a couple of them. But the behavior preceded all of this.

Victoria Volk 13:04
I mean, can you imagine? I mean, yeah, you know, you kind of got to give some grace there. It’s like, you know, pain and anger and, and hurt and all of that you expect that there’s going to be some sort of way to channel all of that.

Jill Johnson 13:18
The weird part was after Linda died, before the kids knew that Casper and I were secretly dating, I would go to work, and I taught classes in the evening. So I get home at like 10 o’clock at night. And her car would be out front. And I didn’t even know she was there. And I’d walk in and she had this funny smirk on her face. And she said, yeah, they called so there was a medical emergency. And the medical emergencies were a tummy ache. Or a friend had a medical crisis. And they needed Casper to come over and counsel the friend. And what they were doing was testing her because she’d said openly to Linda, I am not promising anything other than I will stand by your family after your death. And so they tested and tested and tested. And they were pretty secure with her before they realized we were dating. They knew they could count on her. And that was a huge blessing that they did it on their own.

Victoria Volk 14:22
Right. And I think no children often do that to you. They do and they’ll test to feel to see well. How are you going to match your words with your actions? Right.

Jill Johnson 14:35
Right. And then the acting out ones would would truly act out and she would put on that very southern bush. You know, you did what? Right, and give them the look. And yeah, there was a whole new behavior pattern of okay, I need to change this up. Because there’s somebody else watching too. She has more energy than mom does right now. Just so yeah, it was it worked out. And they were my oldest child still uses caspers name in a lot of places and online because she was very, very loyal to her. And it wasn’t that she wasn’t loyal to her first mom. Right. And then they all lost their birth parents, of course. So my kiddos know how to do grief and loss, but they do it with grace.

Victoria Volk 15:28
And probably better than most adults, way better than most adults. The funny part is my and I and I don’t want to say better, I want to say healthier, maybe in a healthier way.

Jill Johnson 15:40
They’re able to talk about death, they’re able to talk about grief. They’re able to support people who’ve had losses. My little one now lives in Kansas, and will text me and say, Mom, so and so has something going on. Can Can you give me some things to say to her? And I told her about you? And can she call you and they’re not afraid to jump in? My middle one just finished her Master’s. So she’s working on her LMFT license now. And she took the grief and loss class in her school and didn’t tell me. I said no. Why didn’t you tell me? She said because I knew what you’d say. I said, Let me guess they did five stages. And she said, That’s all they did, mom. And I said, What did you say? She said, I realized I could talk back and not graduate. Or I could absorb it and then tell my friends what was real outside of class. And so that is what she settled on. Right? So she’s gonna be a really terrific therapist, hopefully for foster kids. Just her goal, which is working with another kind of loss. Right?

Victoria Volk 16:46
Right. Yeah, I was even gonna ask you if any of them are have goals of following in your footsteps. But there you go.

Jill Johnson 16:52
Charity hit that goal before she arrived. She she’d been in group home care and foster care. She wants to make a difference in that way. A little one is going to be a nurse hopefully, and Linda steps, Casper steps. And our eldest is a super helper at home, and works first part time in my office and helps care for my elderly mom.

Victoria Volk 17:16
Which is another

Jill Johnson 17:17
Caregiving 101. Well and brief. Yeah.

Victoria Volk 17:22
So how are you still sitting upright?

Jill Johnson 17:26
I have a great sense of humor. And I have an outlook that is probably more positive than most. But I really see grief and loss as a place of growth. You know, I don’t want anyone to sit in grief. I don’t It’s not healthy. It causes premature death. Yep, it causes illness. It’s it’s not good for us. And it doesn’t. In the way I see the world do much for maintaining the memory of the person who died in a positive way. I get to talk about Linda and Casper, you know, frequently, their pictures or in the classes that I teach. When I talk about approaching death. Their stories are in my books. The poodles are to for that matter, and they get to stay with me in an active way, but in a healthy active way.

Victoria Volk 18:30
So for those listening, who weren’t set up, right, emotionally to endure all of this loss that you had, but you had this education and this background and this knowledge to support you. You had resources at your disposal, support, possibly that many people may not have. What do you say to those people listening?

Jill Johnson 18:57
You know, I get those questions all the time because of my presence on social media. And number one, if you were in the last process, ask for help raise that white flag, identify where those people are, because there’s usually one or two helpers lurking that we don’t even recognize, bring them into your circle and make them part of us. Wow, you know, lean on the people who were there. Do some journaling so that you have a place to put the emotions and where you can also start to reorganize your life. And in the loss process when you are grieving. Again, look for other people who have a positive outlook that you can not so much latch onto but partner up with someone who can just hear you talk about what happened. Look for someone who can help you understand what you’ve been through because frequently The End far more frequently these days, which I don’t understand. People are not being told their loved one is dying. They’re not being prepared. They’re not being taught with the dying process looks like. That’s a huge issue. It’s a letdown. It’s a secondary loss. And if ever, there’s a cause for anger that burns, that’s the one. And it doesn’t have to be there. Hospice referrals are being made two days or a day before death. In general. I just got my former brother in law into hospice last week. And it happened because I had places that I could pull, right, and I pulled out all the stops, called directors, one to one, I need this hospice for him, I need these things. Most people don’t have that. So find the helpers, and find the people in the same spaces, who are in a healthy grief process. I look at grief as giving you the the best card in the world to throw down which is I’m grieving, you don’t get to tell me what to do. I’m going to decide what my life is going to look like now. Because I just had a major loss. And it doesn’t have to be a spouse, it could be any loss. That could be your number one pet, especially if you’re a solo individual, that pet is your heart. And when that pet dies, you’ve lost the person who meets you when you come home at night. Right or the person you wake up to just like a spouse. So you get to throw that card down. And say it’s my turn to decide where I want to go with my life.

Victoria Volk 21:45
I’m going to put you on the spot, because I can I can put myself in the shoes of a new graver who’s listening to this. So I’m listening to you and you’re telling me not to stay in my grief. Right? It’s not healthy. It’s and then you’re telling me to seek help? And then you’re telling me to? And I going somewhere with this? I’m not? Yeah, yeah, cuz I’m on the same page as you keep. So I keep because I can just see the eye rolls. Someone who is listening, where it’s like, it’s not like we’re telling them what to do, but you’re not telling them what to do or how to grieve. And you can tell somebody, you don’t have to stay in that place. How do you help somebody see in themselves, like someone listening to this? That yes, you can grieve your grieve your own way. But how do you get to that point? Where Enough is enough? How do you see that? It’s just been this has been way too long. Like I’ve been feeling this way, way too long. Right? Because you and I are in the same space. Right? Right. Get to the other side of this. You don’t have to suffer

Jill Johnson 23:10
But not in a hurry and on your own schedule.

Victoria Volk 23:13
Right. But how much time because I was 30 plus your griever or before I woke up before I re-wave the white flag. I mean, I try I waved the white flag but you know, a few times and it didn’t work for me whatever I tried. So you know that kind of you give up then. Right? Right? Do you think this is just how it is? This is what I guess this is what life is like? And so you give up in a way? What do you say to someone to help them see that what they’re losing is more precious is just creating more suffering, because they’re losing their own time. They’re losing their own time. Like I lost a lot of time in my life.

Jill Johnson 24:00
In giving up all their energy to grief. Yeah, instead of being able to invest in others and themselves. And relationships. Yeah, right. And, and so we talk about where does your energy go? And is that really where you want it to be? If you’re seeking help, from me, that means that you have a change you want to make. And I also really am clear that when I talk about finishing grief, and it’s finishing that relationship with that person, it’s finishing all the undone stuff. And if you’ve waited 30 years to do it, or six months to do it. There’s stuff left. Right. I had a lot more stuff left with Casper because she had dementia. So we had some time to talk but we had a much shorter relationship. So there’s a lot more left to do. Linda and I had a full and complete relationship. And we had three years to get ready for our day. Death, so we could talk and we did all night, every night. She was a networker. So we had that time. So what I say is, let’s look at where your energy is going. Let’s look at what you really want for the rest of your life. And let’s look at how you want to honor your loved one. In your new life you didn’t ask for because you’re taking them with you. We don’t leave them behind us. They sit right with us. That’s why I reference Casper and Linda being in my books and in my education programs, because they go with they’re not my primary relationship, but they’re always there.

Victoria Volk 25:44
That original connection does

Jill Johnson 25:46
Is always going to be there. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that’s not to dis stay. See. That’s to say, there’s space for everybody. You know, it’s not a pie. Everybody’s got space. Grievers want to hear that I’m not expecting and somebody else is not expecting them to stop loving, or caring or remembering the person who died. Because that’s the scary part in my experience. No, I don’t want to give them up. You’re not going to.

Victoria Volk 26:15
And it’s also not about condoning whatever it is that happened to them. That is creating the grief in their life of a less than loving relationship to it goes both ways. Yeah.

Jill Johnson 26:26
Right. Right. It’s it’s, I work with lots of people who’ve had desperate parents who weren’t even present. And that’s made it so conflictual for them because they’re losing the potential of ever having that relationship. And then certainly the ones who’ve had abusive relationships, or chronically awful relationships, those things are things that need to be worked through. Because otherwise they stay with that relationship. And you can’t finish.

Victoria Volk 26:57
So what do you say? Because I see this and I hear this a lot too, in the grief space online and things with Grievers is that I don’t need to dig up the past.

Jill Johnson 27:07
I look at what past is still there? Yeah, so we work on, make a list, make bubbles, make whatever you want, however, you want to construct it. Show me this relationship you had all the things that took place that are still in your head? All the good. Right? What’s the good? Even if it’s just they gave birth to me? And I eventually got to another family. Right? Tell me the good. And then tell me the conflict. Tell me the stuff that was bad. And let’s finish that stuff. Let’s work on figuring out what you wanted to say to them. And what apologies they owed you? Or are you conflicted because of the way they died? And you feel like you have some apologies to make yourself? Did you guys have a conflictual relationship and you had a fight? Just before they got into that car accident? There’s some stuff there too, that needs to be worked out.

Victoria Volk 28:09
I’m just curious, did you happen to go through the Grief Recovery method?

Jill Johnson 28:14
I went through the two and a half day intensive. I use some of their materials. I don’t agree with all of it. But I like a lot of it. But through with Russell.

Victoria Volk 28:23
Okay. So yeah.

Jill Johnson 28:25
But it’s it’s like a lot of it. Some of the stuff they talk about in terms of avoiding grief, or they still live by the rule of you need to wait a year before there’s a new relationship. And that’s not the experience that research bears out. For people who’ve lost a partner after long term illness. The research says the opposite of that.

Victoria Volk 28:52
Actually, I actually don’t know, that wasn’t in my trading.

Jill Johnson 28:56
That was what that was part of his training. So he and I had a go around on that one. So be about an hour over lunch one day. So yeah, these parts of it, don’t use parts of it. I use the companioning stuff. Mostly, I do a lot of news, a lot of research on what it is that Grievers say that they need and what helps them get to the other side. And so part of that is really excellent stuff. So what are some of those things? The finishing parts, that is part of their language, it’s also part of the companioning language. And I really like the you really don’t have to agree forever. Because so many grief leaders who are therapists won’t let go that language they still maintain it. And then they say they don’t and then you watch a video and there they are saying it again. And those are powerful words and they hurt people.

Victoria Volk 29:54
Yeah, I actually I had to put in my two cents on a post I saw once where the person who counsels people in grief had shared something to the effect, how they don’t use the words healing, or recovery or things like that. And I thought, wow, that’s really a disservice to people, because then they believe that how they’re feeling is really, that’s how just the how they’re always gonna feel like that it’s not, that’s forever for them. Yeah, you’re telling someone that it’s not possible. And I as a rebellious type of person to you, too, it’s like, don’t tell me what’s impossible.

Jill Johnson 30:36
Don’t tell me I’m gonna feel like this for the rest of my life. Right? Right. When I have a new client come in now, generally, they find me. And so they already know that I’m that rebellious widow. And they, you can see my writings and hear me on podcasts and things. So they find somebody that that matches where they want to be. But they’re still got people in their ear. Lots of them saying, Oh, no, if you stop grieving, it means you didn’t love them enough, you aren’t being loyal to them, you’re moving too fast. That means you didn’t care enough. It might mean that I’m just freaking exhausted. Right? Caregivers get tired. And if you’re one of those people who has been a caregiver, and you’re listening, I get that you are tired. And however you want to take care of you and regain your energy and your strength, you do that. And set the boundaries around the people who want to tell you what to do. Grief work is so much about boundaries,

Victoria Volk 31:35
Boundaries, oh my god, right.

Jill Johnson 31:37
It’s all the boundaries. And that’s kind of what’s missing wrestle kind of implies it. And John kind of applies it, but I’m all about the K rails, you put those K rails three Hi. And you don’t let other people tell you how you’re going to do this or what the outcome is going to be. It’s your choice.

Victoria Volk 31:54
I naturally found my boundaries and where I didn’t have them and how to do that. Because of Grief Recovery. You know, because of that. It Yeah, it was huge for me. I want to get your thoughts on this because the grief space. I’ll just say on Instagram particular. It’s really kind of heartbreaking for me.

Jill Johnson 32:15
Oh, try Pinterest. Really? Oh, oh. When I did that episode, I say go right this minute, pull your phones out. Go to go to Pinterest and tell me and put the word grief in it. Tell me what you see. And it’s Rose Kennedy all over the place. And grief is a measure of your love and you’re going to and then there’s these therapists who say you’re going to you’re going to grieve for half as long as that relationship well holy crap if we were married 50 years I had no hope. Wow, this there’s there isn’t a diagram and there’s no formula. Stop it. Yeah, they’re all horrible about that. So yeah, I’m sorry to interrupt but yeah, the two of them are like neck and neck with horrible.

Victoria Volk 33:00
Yeah, I’m not I’m not really on Pinterest. But yeah, I It’s so heartbreaking for me, because I see so many new Grievers are newer Grievers. And they’re on there and they start an account and they’re Yes, share, openly communicate how you’re feeling. I’m a huge proponent of community like getting it out there like having an outlet for that. But it’s what is it? Does that feed into like the response and the reaction? Does that feed into that? Perpetual Sorrow? Does, like how does that move you forward? You’re it’s almost as if I’ve said this before on other podcast episodes, it’s almost as if the with COVID, especially like the in person support groups that don’t have like an action plan or moving you forward have moved online.

Jill Johnson 33:54
And they’re so devastatingly awful for people?

Victoria Volk 33:58
Yes that’s what they are stuck.

Jill Johnson 34:01
I tell therapists that I’m training you need to lurk in the grief support groups. And you know, first ask permission, of course to get in, but follow them see which ones are healthy because they change personalities, like, weekly monthly, one that’s healthy now is completely unhealthy three weeks later, because somebody jumps in there and starts attacking everybody. And so they leave and the attacker stays. Yeah, it’s it can be a very unhealthy space.

Victoria Volk 34:30
So how can can you communicate then with listeners how to discern where is the healthy space to be online? Like how to discern that for themselves? What is What are the markers or what is that? What are the things to look for in a healthy green space online?

Jill Johnson 34:48
In general, if you’re going into general grief spaces, because there are those that are specific to specific losses, but in any of those spaces, you’re looking for one where if someone says I’m having a good day. Or I really want to feel better, or someone give me some ideas about how I can. Where they’re the healthy ones are people who support them in wanting to make change the unhealthy ones, they are all in on, what are you talking about, you’re not being loyal to your loved one, you’re, you’re not going to feel better. This is what grief is this is, this is how we hold on to their memory, you’re looking for the ones who won’t allow for growth. And then I want you to run from them. And go to another one where there is room for growth. And there are some, right, those groups split frequently, I, I get to be in all the groups because I’ve had so many losses. And so I’m in the parent loss support group, because I’ve lost my dad, and I’m in the widows and I’m in the lesbian widows, I’m in all the groups. There’s a lesbian widows group that just split into three groups. Because one group wants to stay in the unhealthy you have to grieve space. And one group wants to include more a more broad and more general group of people. And one group wants to keep it just this space. So it’s easy to lose groups. And that’s another loss. Look for the healthy ones.

Victoria Volk 36:24
Because you develop connections and with people and you know, it can be one comment that just right social media can be hard, brutal, and heartwarming. Yeah, I can. Yeah. I I’m a huge proponent to just like, really, I think too. And you can agree or disagree. But as you start working through the layers, like you really start to come back to your own intuition and your own sense of agency. Do you agree?

Jill Johnson 36:52
I absolutely agree.

Victoria Volk 36:54
Yeah I just what I found from you take you back. Yeah.

Jill Johnson 36:58
And you take the cube back. When you’re doing grief work, one of the things that I like to do with people, when I do groups is we spend that last day working on a where am I going now board? Not a vision board? Because those have, you know, those are usually money and big things? Who did you use to be before all of this? And what parts of that you do you want back? What did you want to do when you were five years old? I maybe went horseback riding as a kid and you haven’t done it since then. Do want to get back on a horse. You get to decide where you get to go, and what brings you joy now. And you get to go find that and do that and not listen to those who tell you you can’t have joy? Because you should be able to.

Victoria Volk 37:45
That’s one of my questions. And I’ll ask that at the end. But I want to kind of start at the beginning of your story. And as a child, because your grief didn’t just start with the passing of Linda and I’m sure of it. So no, no. What who was Jill before you became a licensed social worker and like, how did you come to be?

Jill Johnson 38:12
And I grew up. I grew up in a family where I had the oldest dad in the classroom. Right? Everyone sort of thought he was grandpa. He’s 10 years older than my mom. And so I had a lot of older relatives because everyone in his family had large spans between spouses. Right. And so with that, there were lots of people who died, and lots of deaths and illnesses. And in my family, it was the norm to attend those and to bring the children. My mom was a preacher’s kid from way back when my dad was a farm kid. Death was part of life. And so you did it together as a family. I am so I would I took a quarter off of college when my dad sister was dying. It was a beloved aunt, and was there at the hospital with her. And when my grandmother’s were dying. My grandfather’s you did that as a family. When a pet died, you had a funeral. Right? When a pet had a birthday, you had a birthday party. That was not farm kid. That was California kids, right? The state differences. There’s a picture of me when I was little conducting a funeral with the neighborhood kids for some creature that we’d apparently found dead on the sidewalk or something. We live on a hillside and that was part of life for us. So death wasn’t scary. Grief was normal. You You grieve people and then you reemerged from it. When my mom’s dad died, that my grandparents lived in a senior community with little patio homes. And about a month after my grandfather’s death She said, We got to change this up. So we went over there. We pulled her table outside, we took invitations to probably 50 people, the community, and we had tea, and desserts out on her patio and reintroduced grandma, to the community as Lily, Lily and Elmer because that was part of life. That’s really what shaped me, I became the first social worker for our local AIDS Project, way back in the day, I was there before we had a quilt. And before Ryan White, we used to take our, our clients from hospitals to a shelter because their families wouldn’t take them. And we would lose them within two weeks to four months. So it was constant loss. And you had to learn to surf the losses, and grieve together and laugh together and move into the next one. And from there, it just stuck. I did CPS, for what for a long time, which is in child welfare is all the losses. My kids are all adopted lots of losses there. And then hospice is where I where my heart lives. And that’s why I do grief and loss work. Because, you know, if I could still be on the road as a hospice social worker, I probably would. But I can’t. And I think I have a bigger impact with what I’m doing now.

Victoria Volk 41:23
Wow that’s Yeah, I think often our professions and where we find ourselves in life is a reflection of our childhoods, yes. Through what we’ve experienced and endured, and really to, like you said, what was normalized for us? You know, you found that that’s a gift that you can give others is to normalize it for other people, as much as it absolutely is.

Jill Johnson 41:51
Yeah. My mom was the caregiver for all the grandparents. She took care of every one of them, except for my grandfather, who died very suddenly, before I was born. And my grandmother on my mom’s side was a nurse. And my grandparents ran a nursing home for many years. So I think it’s probably genetic.

Victoria Volk 42:11
Do you think a lot of the issues we face today in Death and Dying is that there is this separatism that is created? You know, even just like you, okay, you’re married to a funeral director, right? Like, we are so separated from death, like we we hand it off to someone else to take care of the details. They die in the hospital or in the nursing home by themselves often, especially in COVID.

Jill Johnson 42:41
Now, that is not healthy.

Victoria Volk 42:42
Horrible. It’s horrible. It’s horrible. for everybody involved.

Jill Johnson 42:46
It absolutely is.

Victoria Volk 42:48
And so what’s the trade off here that we’re giving? Like, what is this? We are gonna I don’t believe we’re going to know really the true impact of this for probably another five to seven years? If, yeah, I, you know, and especially with hospice, which isn’t really a resource that is readily available. I’m very rural. I’m in North Dakota, very rural, it’s just not accessible. Where do we start in society to kind of get back to that? Make it a family? And can we write because if we’re so bogged down with our own grief, how can we support someone else? How can we, and I think that’s this is why I’m so passionate about changing the narrative around grief, right? Because if we, you are a better service to your loved ones, if you are healthy, right? Right body spirit.

Jill Johnson 43:42
Mm hmm and you can’t help someone else with a loss if you weren’t in a good space. Right. So it’s all of this separatism. It’s just kind of a product of that. We’ve so sanitized illness, and made an expectation that people don’t die, that we’re not comfortable with it anymore. You know, at our house growing up, we talked about death and illness at the dinner table. That was normal. Right, probably to an excessive degree because of my grandmother. But we, because she loved to talk about it. But that was normal. And when I sit down with you know, regular people who are not grief people, and you know, you make a joke about death, the look on their faces, oh my god, right? Because grief, people have a distinct sense of humor that probably shouldn’t be let out very often. That’s why I like grief conferences, because you’re with your people, right? Nurses and hospice. People are like that, too. But we talk about it and so many people don’t when I’m with Stacey and we’re out in public, and some for COVID Of course, and someone finds out she’s a funeral director. In general, they step back about three to five feet. Like she’s toxic, or death is catching. And they’ll say things like, Do you touch dead people? There’s a woman who has a Facebook space, called Life is a morticians wife, and she’s hysterically funny. You haven’t found her everybody should. And one of her memes that she, she replays frequently is, you know, Morty, her husband is the only mortician who works in a funeral home where there are no dead people. Of course, you touch dead people. Right? Because you’re giving them the gift of a good goodbye for their family. Those are people who work of service, but it scares people.

Victoria Volk 45:42
Yeah, right. It’s not the Grim Reaper.

Jill Johnson 45:45
How can you right there, they’re not picking out who’s gonna die they get the people have already died. But they take good care of them. And all people can see is too creepy. Yucky. I don’t think so. Mental sister is like that. Unless you go to a social worker conference, then Stacey is like the hot potato. Everyone wants to talk to the funeral director. Social workers are a little bit weird and proud of our weirdness. And she, I have a table at one of those meetings that everybody wants to meet Stacey. Right. Because they want to ask her about being a mortician. And half of them wanted to be morticians. So yeah, I think we’ve sanitized it too much. It saddens me that in North Dakota, that’s the experience because farm country used to be where death was normal. Right, and neighbors pulled together. And when there was an illness, it happened at home, and people came over. And you even involved at home? And and even if it’s even gone in farm country, then we’re way too sanitary? Because you should have that natural network.

Victoria Volk 46:53
Well, and what do we do when someone is can’t take care of themselves anymore? They go into a nursing home, right? They get segregated from the rest of the population. So it really comes down to how, how can we build support within communities, so that people can feel as a caregiver a that they’re supported, that they would even want to have their loved one with them at home? Right? You know, it’s it’s a multifaceted issue is know,

Jill Johnson 47:24
A huge problem. We don’t have financial support for caregivers in this country. No, you know, if you’re on in all the grief groups, and you’re talking to someone from England, or the Netherlands, they have grants for the family caregivers. So there’s resources, so they can stay home. They’re not huge. But it makes a difference here. In some states in California, we’re quite blessed with In Home supportive services, but you have to be poverty line or just above, in order for your family caregiver to be paid to take care of you. If your upper echelon, you can hire care if you’re Jill, and you’re having a spouse with an early onset illness, and you’re not retirement age yet, which is when we expect people somehow to all die, right? It’s not true. People die lots of times before they’re 65, then you really do have to scramble to create the network that keeps someone home. And I happen to be able to pull it together. And we also have some hospices that have inpatient units. But that’s not covered under Medicare, or insurance. So again, unless that hospice has a fabulous fundraising arm, you have to be able to afford it because they have to be able to pay their people. Right. The hospice I worked for in Florida has six residential units now. And they have a wonderful fundraising arm, so someone can’t afford it, they can still come and the couch pulls out into a bed, then their volunteer cooks who come in, take care of not only the patients, but also the patient family. So if the family patient choose to have the death there, they have an extended family supporting them visiting hours or 24/7. If we could replicate that everywhere. How much further would we be in making death a much less traumatic experience for everybody?

Victoria Volk 49:27
Yeah, I had gone through earlier this year I went through a death doula certification death doula program, and yeah, I mean, the process, are you. Yeah, it really changed my perspective on just the process of dying and how that can really be a beautiful experience. And it is beautiful. If the family feels like they’re a part of it.

Jill Johnson 49:49
And the family knows what they’re seeing and hearing. Yeah, that’s part of what I teach therapists every program literally every program I teach, what’s one hour of one’s life session is going to be, this is what dying looks like, from the very beginning to the very end. And this is what it feels like when the oxygen gets turned off. And the silence when that compressor is no longer going, we go through all of it. And we go from the death rattle, which I just hate that term too. That’s just fluid on a prone vocal cord. And the person dying isn’t hearing or feeling it. Right, because they have to know what, what really happened so they can unpack the trauma for the family who didn’t have anyone educating them.

Victoria Volk 50:37
Yeah. And you touched on that earlier to just about how so often people aren’t even told their loved one is dying. Right? I had Dr. Chris Kerr, who’s did the he was on surviving death and his hospice work is, you know, part of that. And now, Graham, yes. And that’s what he said, We medicalize death. We’ve met it. We’ve just gotten to the point where we medicalize death where you go to the hospital? Yep. It’s a last ditch effort is hospice? Well, I guess we’ve done what we can, you know,

Jill Johnson 51:09
I’ve had so many patients. And you know, especially young women, and they’ve gone into some research program. And they’ve said, repeatedly, I want to get home to say goodbye to my kids. And they end up being delivered comatose in an ambulance. And they die the next day, and they never could speak to their kids. Because the kids weren’t welcome in the hospital setting. We need to let people have the grace to be at home if that’s what they choose.

Victoria Volk 51:36
Well, the impact of that on the kids. Right? Well, yeah,

Jill Johnson 51:40
Right. It’s better for kids to be able to crawl up in the hospital bed and snuggle with mommy. Because if she’s gonna die, that’s the last snuggle they get. Let them have it.

Victoria Volk 51:51
My dad died nursing home. When I was eight, you know, oh, my goodness. You know, I’m, I’m in school, and he passed away in the nursing home. And there was just nothing that could there was no hospice. There just was no hospice.

Jill Johnson 52:07
And this should have been. Yeah, because Dame Cicely Saunders has been doing this for a long time. Right. We’ve had St. Christopher’s hospice, for forever. You know, and Hospice is a grassroots movement. So we should have a hospice in every county. And if there were more nonprofit hospices, we would be much further along. In Florida, go ahead. In Florida, you can only have one hospice per county. And if they need another one, the hospices are vetted, and they get voted on. And they have to demonstrate that they do all the things is required, and that they don’t spend their money marketing. They spend it in their families.

Victoria Volk 52:52
Yeah, I was gonna add to like the veteran community to the veterans. My dad was a veteran. And so he would receive His care at the VA hospital, which was a three hour drive for us. Almost right. And so I didn’t, we didn’t, I didn’t get to see him that often as he was getting his care. But only just this year, I believe they have broken or they’re raising money right now, to kind of build like a Ronald McDonald House, for the families of those veterans receiving care at the VA. And I’m thinking boy, that was like, that was in the 80s. Right. And it’s taken this long, for there to be a facility for the family to be there with their loved ones like, like things move. So slowly, it feels like and they do this space,

Jill Johnson 53:43
Especially looking at Family Support everyone’s about the patient, which they should be, but that the Paisley entire family part of the family’s dying, right?

Victoria Volk 53:53
You support the family is

Jill Johnson 53:55
Your family and the patient needs to know the family is going to be okay. That’s the greatest distress for a dying person is on my loved ones going to be okay. Yeah. And if they’re all stressed out, then the patient’s all stressed out.

Victoria Volk 54:08
Yeah, let’s say well, there’s there’s angst about dying then to write like, there’s no dine and peace or wait, any sense of inner peace when they’re just filled with worry and don’t want to go and they don’t have a choice and all the conflicting things, right. That’s

Jill Johnson 54:26
Got to die at home, got to do the grieving ahead of time we did the anticipatory grief. And then she actually picked the next wife. I mean, that’s, that’s should be. Yeah, there’s the standard, reduce the stress for the patient. All right.

Victoria Volk 54:40
Coming back to your story, what were some of the things that people I know you kind of sprinkled in a few here and there, but what are some of the things that people said to you that were unhelpful and hurtful?

Jill Johnson 54:52
Oh, my goodness. There were lots of things about how can I possibly support the children well enough, if I was in a new relationship, when Linda was dying, there were, you know, lots of suggestions about get the kids out of the house, so they’re not part of it, you’re going to traumatize them. I know. Well, Linda was dying, I arranged to have an adult assigned to each child. So that in those last days, if I needed to be all about Linda, or to take a break, they had eyes on them that I could trust, and that they were people who weren’t going to say the stupid things to them. Right? The kids heard a lot about this as part of a plan. You know, all the things that Grievers hear before someone’s died and afterward, that, aren’t they lucky to have another angel. My middle kiddo and younger kiddo, learned how to turn that one around like that, you know, we get enough angels, we need to keep this one here. God could have your angel, that’s okay. Why don’t you volunteer? Right. They are my children, you can tell. I heard a lot about I wasn’t grieving long enough, hard enough. I didn’t look sad enough. And then I look too happy. At a wedding, I was told that people were there because they felt like they were obligated to they disagreed with this. Like they got to vote, right? We already had property, nobody else got to vote. We were all done with voting. And I looked at those people so that you don’t have to be here. Right? This is not your people. This is my new life. And you don’t need to be part of it, if that’s how you’re looking at it. And that may sound harsh, but I needed my family to be supported as a family. However, my family was defined in that moment. And then, of course, also, when someone’s dying, you hear all the over, there’s this potion, and there’s that potion. And if you’d only done this, which tells that person you didn’t do enough to support them. And you didn’t stop this death. Yeah, all the things and I’ve got a five page list. No

Victoria Volk 57:07
imagine kids hearing that someone’s saying that to you? And then thinking then, well, did you do enough like you saved her like, you know, then looking at you like you failed them? Right? People just don’t realize what they’re saying. Right?

Jill Johnson 57:21
I can’t tell you how many times I heard pulmonary fibrosis is treatable with with a lung transplant? Well, partly that’s because the pulmonary fibrosis sociation keeps putting that out there. But lung transplant lists are long, right? And if you have pF, because of chemo, you don’t qualify for a lung transplant. Because you’ve already killed your immune system.

Victoria Volk 57:43
You don’t know what you don’t know. Right? You say that all the time? Like I don’t know what I don’t know. And that’s where people just jump to those judgments and those those things without asking yourself, I say to yourself, I don’t know what I don’t know, like people have their reasons. Right?

Jill Johnson 58:01
Right. I mean, little people, I’m okay with that. My my little niece, who adored Linda, call me one night, she said, I discovered there’s a secondary list for injured organs that they can still use for people who weren’t good candidates, we could get Atlanta use lungs. Right? That’s been a car accident might still work. And I appreciated how much love that has told you. She has hope. And she wanted to save her auntie. And I had to explain why that wouldn’t work. But she was looking, right? That kind of thing I totally get. I’ve all grown adults coming in and saying I have this laser thing that I can wave over her lungs. And if you’d let me do it last year, she’d be alive. Get out of my house. Just get out.

Victoria Volk 58:48
I think to like some it’s I think for the most part people are well meaning like they are well meaning it’s because I know I’ve been in that position, especially more so in the past. Like you just you just want to fix it. You just want to say something? Yeah, you want to just help you want to, or maybe this will be the one thing that will you know, change the situation or whatever. But yeah, and that’s where I’m that’s why I said I’m a huge proponent of intuition, your own intuition, your own discernment and your own sense of agency. And,

Jill Johnson 59:24
And if someone’s violating it, let them slip out to the outer circles for a while. Because what griefers really need is just someone to listen to them. Yeah. You know, some judge basis as a Manal analysis, someone they can call and say, can you believe so? And so just told me this, right. And usually someone outside the family they need to talk to because it’s the family saying the things and you freak out frequently, someone outside their house of faith if they have one, because that’s where a lot of those things get said. Yeah, right. They they need a space where they can just talk about it. All the things they’re hearing, and the things they’re considering without being judged for just a really safe, secure space.

Victoria Volk 1:00:09
So would that be your one tip?

Jill Johnson 1:00:11
Find the space, allow yourself to have a sense of humor. Allow yourself to laugh. Get some sunshine. They used to say that you can still go to Disney while you are grieving. You can still do that. Now. I can’t say that because COVID Even though it’s open, I wouldn’t say that because COVID Because I had COVID. Right. But I say you need to find some joy still, you’re allowed to let it die on Good Friday. quite inconvenient. Better than dying on Easter. That would have been the absolute wrong message. But I had to do Easter baskets that Saturday. And being our family, we told her she couldn’t die. She said on the second of April. That was where it fell that year. The 30th of March is my oldest daughter’s Adoption Day. So Linda was quite cognizant and aware and we’re like you can’t die that day. You just you can’t wreck her day. She said okay, I’m not gonna die that day, we’re gonna, I’m gonna hang on, I’m gonna make sure that doesn’t happen. And then we sit and you can’t do April Fool’s Day, because that would just nobody would believe us. Right? Because you have a sense of humor, and they’re gonna think we’re lying. So you have to make it past Easter, if you don’t choose Good Friday, and so Good Friday at noon, she was gone. That’s how our family works grief and loss. But you have to be able to have that sense of humor after loss, because otherwise you’re gonna sink. Yeah. So find someone you can laugh with and be disturbed with. Right? It’s in there.

Victoria Volk 1:01:43
So you gave a lot of advice for those who are deep in grief now, but as a child, what was I mean, I know your family, you talked openly and things like that. But was there ever any, you like your earliest memory of something that of a loss that you had that stuck with you? Anything that was said to you that stuck with you? advice or just phrase.

Jill Johnson 1:02:11
Remember my dad companioning. Right, we were at a funeral for someone, I don’t remember who it was, he had one suit, he never wore suits in one suit. And that was the funeral suit. And I can still feel it because it had a very distinct kind of a texture. And he would put his arms around us, standing behind us in the seats under the tent at every funeral. And I remember him saying, this is okay. They got their life and we’re gonna remember them. And it’s okay to cry. And then afterward, it’s okay to be happy, go get a cookie and go outside play with your friends. So it’s that kind of lesson that you can, you can get through this, it’s not going to be the interview. And you can still find happy. That’s a really strong memory. And I remember my mom saying, you know, sometimes doctors can’t fix everything. And we have to accept that there’s limits and find a way to say goodbye instead. So powerful messages. And that was when I was maybe five or six.

Victoria Volk 1:03:26
It is I mean, it’s it was emulated for you, then it was okay to grieve. Yeah. And the polarity of it’s okay to be happy too, in the same day, same time.

Jill Johnson 1:03:39
Exactly. And that’s the message that I if we as adults can do grief better, and make it normal. Then our kids will watch us because that’s how they learn.

Victoria Volk 1:03:50
Future generations. Yeah. And we can change it us. So I started this podcast, yeah. Freight waves did people support you that were most helpful to you?

Jill Johnson 1:04:02
The folks who showed up and were just there, both during the day and after the matzah ball soup delivery of the bringing Hawaiian flowers. So we could have some sense that reminded us of happy moments. The over the top decorations for holidays that brought back the memories, because they both died during the holiday periods. Right. And those who would call me and tell me I just defended you again. Don’t listen, if anyone’s after you. You get to do this your way. Right? The ones I could call and say I need to get rid of these clothes today. I just can’t have them anymore. And they would come. Those were the things it was it was the doing and the Holding space

Victoria Volk 1:04:55
And all of the grief that you’ve experienced what What would you say that it has taught you, maybe about yourself, and also just maybe about the human spirit.

Jill Johnson 1:05:07
It has helped me find my resilience and a great big way. And I know we overuse that term. But it’s in there for everybody. And with Linda’s illnesses, plural. There were times that, you know, as the caregiver, I just felt so beat up, partly because the way the medical community spoke to us, there were some harsh moments. But I was able to discover that I could turn things around. And that we could find fun and happy enjoy. And that was, probably the biggest thing is I needed to know that I could still find joy in life. And that joy was possible even in the midst of loss in the midst of grief. That was hugely important. The month after Linda died, we had prom, and we had military ball. And we had a teen dance. And the one going to prom. The boyfriend dropped her the day before prom, because he said she’d be too sad, bro. You better believe I was a mad mama. Now they’re married. Oh, my. Whoa, and they can laugh about it. Yeah, yeah, we can find our resilience.

Victoria Volk 1:06:22
What do you say, this drives me nuts. So you already know now how I feel about it. But when people say that children are resilient,

Jill Johnson 1:06:31
I think children are able to heal in their own ways. And to grieve in the moments they need to grieve. Children don’t grieve like adults. And the biggest disservice we give them is to expect them to grieve like adults, teens to teens need to grieve with their teens, their friends, not with adults, they don’t want to grieve with mom won’t agree with their friends. And I think children are resilient. But I think we need to not count on that so much as to teach them what’s happening. And to give them space and permission to both cry and to laugh. And to remember, and to include the person who died in future. So in our house, everybody who’s died gets an ornament on the Christmas tree. And at this point, our Christmas tree is like the memorial Christmas tree. Because every dog and cat and rabbit is on there too right?

Victoria Volk 1:07:27
I love that. I love that little tip for keeping that memory alive. That’s right.

Jill Johnson 1:07:36
There’s some families that do like a holiday table Thanksgiving, where they do the handprint or something and you know, write the name and the date that they’re there. And then the year that somebody died, they put them in a cloud in the center of the table. And so this, we have to be careful not to bleach or wash it outside. But that tablecloth becomes a living memory. And it actually brings those people back into the holiday. Every year. As you talk about them, you’re reminded of them. And kids need that they don’t need to hear the name disappear. They need that name set.

Victoria Volk 1:08:11
Yeah when I think of resiliency, like as a child, for me personally, like, I feel like children don’t choose to be resilient, they’re put in positions that of having to have to having to be so that’s where that’s where it drives me nuts. It’s not that we are resilient, it’s that they don’t have a choice.

Jill Johnson 1:08:30
We need to give them space to do what they need to do to have the emotions that are theirs, just like we want for adults. When your grave sends out, sometimes you’re mad, sometimes you’re happy. Sometimes you’re blah, sometimes you’re empty. Sometimes your heads just gonna spin. Yeah, they’re little people, they have the same things, just the smaller amounts. They just don’t tell you because they’re watching you. Right? So if I’m talking to a child who’s just lost someone to COVID and that’s been frequent this year, have the parent on with them. And also so do you still have questions about what happened? And they’ll look at their parents as they just talked to me, it’s okay. They nod their head. And the parent looks like looks at them. Like I told you, you could ask me did you not ask because you were afraid to you were gonna make so and so sad or upset them? And they’d say yes. Right, because they’re watching the grownups. So don’t assume. Ask them what they’re feeling and give them space for it. And give them time for it and hear them.

Victoria Volk 1:09:41
I’ve actually had someone tell me that a mom told the child to not bring up grandpa’s name because it made her sad. That’s very common. Oh my gosh, it’s an i Yeah, I know. It is. I mean, I grew up in a home where I just didn’t talk about it because it would make my mom Sad right, you know, right? Yeah.

Jill Johnson 1:10:03
They’re still telling little boys be stronger the man of the family now? Yes. I thought that up in 1950 It’s not real. Yes, right. It was real, but I haven’t I doing genealogy. I have an ancestor whose entire family died of the black plague in the 1400s. Right. Wow, everybody died. All of the siblings, the parents, the grandparents, everybody in this house died, except her. For generations, every family had a child with that name. Okay, she was the person of the family. That is not true. In 2021. You don’t have to be the man of family. You don’t have to be strong. Stop it. Right. And you don’t have to be happy that you’ve got another angel. Because if they’re watching over you all the time, that means they’re watching go to the bathroom. It’s creepy.

Victoria Volk 1:10:53
Oh, you’d rather have them here. Right? They’re not

Jill Johnson 1:10:55
Exactly. And I give kids permission to say that. Yeah. When someone says that to you, what do you think? Kids speak? I wish they were here, then tell somebody that? Yeah. They won’t say it again. I guarantee it. Yep. guarantee it.

Victoria Volk 1:11:09
The best lesson they could ever teach that person to.

Jill Johnson 1:11:12
I spoke to a church recently on grief. And they, they asked for some things. And that was one of the things. Don’t tell people what to feel. And don’t tell them not to speak and give them space. And don’t say they’re in a better place. And the pastor put up this giant Amen across the entire street. I love doing church kings when they do that. Right. And they took the tips and put them in the front of the church and sent me a picture. Because they’re doing grief differently. Now. No more messages about this was a plan. This was an illness. It’s a virus we can’t stop. It’s not because somebody wanted them dead. But let’s let’s stop the messaging.

Victoria Volk 1:11:56
Right? Yes. Is a jackass. Yes, right. Do grief better? Mm hmm. So what gives you the most hope for the future. And the most joy,

Jill Johnson 1:12:10
The most joy is sometimes just waking up. But mostly it’s knowing that the work that I do is making a difference and that it gives me space for my family. Because I’m now grandma of two about to be grandma three. Congratulation, right. And I have my oodles at home. And so we you know, being able to watch the little faces is a lot of fun. And the most hope is that we’re doing more of these. And more people are talking and occupying the space and breaking into the conversations to talk about the fact that we can do grief in that make it forever. Yeah, that’s huge for me. And if we can, if we can stop that for, you know, one person, we’ve done our work

Victoria Volk 1:12:58
Well, and you break the cycle, too, I think if you recognize that there is more to life than being a Griever. And that grief is your life. Because just as you can emulate healing and being supportive, and all the positive things of grief, like you can emulate the story that this is how it’s always going to be in what story do you want to emulate to your children?

Jill Johnson 1:13:26
Right? And the more we talk about grief and loss, the better off all of us are? Exactly. Hmm.

Victoria Volk 1:13:34
Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Jill Johnson 1:13:37
I just really appreciate having been asked to be here and being able to say to share the space with you. Yeah, thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk 1:13:44
Thank you so much for being here. And where can people find you if they like to connect with you?

Jill Johnson 1:13:49
Oh, gosh, just Google Jill Johnson. But no, I have the rebellious widow.com that has the book. And you don’t have to buy the book there. You can buy it multiple places. It has free downloads however to go with the book. So if you’re a caregiver, it has an actual caregiver notebook you can download and create at home at no cost. And it has worksheets for doing the grief work. Also at no cost because I’m still a social worker. And then Gil Johnson young comm has resources for all kinds of losses. It’s got sibling loss and pet loss and all the things that are not usually included in loss. And it also has the courses that I teach, and podcasts are posted there. And then the Friday grief chat on Facebook. We’re there every Friday at 10am and it’s called humor, grace and grief. And we just talk about grief in the context of being able those also find humor in life and find the grace in what’s occurred. So that’s a good place to find me. Otherwise I’m on LinkedIn and all the things Pinterest all the if there’s a space still is there.

Victoria Volk 1:14:57
Yeah, the book if they purchase the book on Amazon Do they still get all of the the work?

Jill Johnson 1:15:03
The downloads are free? You don’t have to buy the book at all. And you get downloads. Oh, okay. Yeah, I created it that way. And they publish it was like, Are you serious? I’m a social worker. And I want people to be able to do this better. And so yes, everybody gets access. This is not a members only moment. Wonderful that should be.

Victoria Volk 1:15:21
And I will share all of that information in the show notes. Thank you. And again, thank you so much for sharing your story of hope, and doing grief differently. And thank you so much. You’re welcome. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love, from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a heart with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend