Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Life with Human Design, Parenting, Podcast |
Amy Douglas | From Betrayal and Loss To Manifesting Joy
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
How much betrayal and loss can the heart take within less than two years?
Today’s guest shares how betrayal, loss, unsurmountable grief, and a decline in health catalyzed her personal growth.
Amy chose to empower herself by getting a life coach and learning new tools that enabled her to recalibrate her life and move forward beyond the hurt, pain, and emotional hurricane she felt stuck in for too long.
In this episode, we dabble into Amy’s experience with Human Design, what she’s learned about herself, and how Human Design became the permission slip to radically change things, including leaving her corporate job.
We have all experienced something that challenges our beliefs and who we thought others were. We may question who we are and our role in the mess, and often, fear and expectations play a role and serve a purpose in making sense of our experiences.
Listen to today’s episode to hear Amy’s perspective on fear, how learning her Human Design helped her change her approach and point of view of expectations, and so much more!
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m so excited for this episode because I’m talking with Amy Douglas. She is a human design reader. And I have been working with her as her client. But today’s episode is about her sharing her grief journey in what she’s learned through human design about herself and her grief. And I’m just really excited to bring this knowledge to the podcast because, like, one of my favorite quotes is the more you know yourself, the less you look to others to tell you who you are. And so human design is just another tool in the toolbox to help you to better understand yourself. And so Amy, thank you so much for being here and sharing about your journey today and thank you for your time.
Amy Douglas: Well, thank you for inviting me. I’m thrilled to be here. I’m excited for our conversation. Grief is not something that we all love to touch on but reflecting on it and empowering ourselves to move through it’s such a critical part of our own evolution and definitely human design. I feel like in my journey with human design. If I were to say, you know, that I have felt grief by learning my design, it was the grief of not allowing myself to be what I chose for myself for so many years. And the grief of thinking or feeling that those ways that I chose for myself and my design were wrong because they’re not it’s just sad, we’re so full of not enoughness and design hasn’t powered me to release a lot of that, not enoughness, offer some deep compassion and understanding for myself and others. I love your quote. It’s so true. I see so many people looking to others for the answers, the right ways to do things, and they’re all within us. We just really get to take the time, to sit with ourselves, to uncover that.
Victoria Volk: People might not be familiar with human design can you just briefly cover what that is? And also too, like, we are both manifestors design, which is only like nine percent of the population and often the most misunderstood. So imagine the grief that that has caused us in our lives alone.
Amy Douglas: So true in being female manifestors. Right? Like, there’s there’s so many layers to it. So human design is, another one of those architectural ways to help us discern, kind of who we are. But there are a lot of different modalities that were brought in together, but I want you to just if you hear nothing else, it’s basically the blueprint or the owner’s manual, operators manual, that you chose for yourself to tell you how you are meant to be existing in this three-d experience. And who knew? We had an owner’s manual that told us so many ways like how we’re meant to make decisions, and how we process fear, and how we’re meant to digest food and life there’s, I mean, down to so many things that it really just offers you the opportunity to say, oh, this is what I chose for myself. Very much to your point instead of looking to others to help point us in it, quote unquote, right direction.
Victoria Volk: And I imagine like me who’s just now starting to get down the human design rabbit hole again after I dabbled in it maybe a year ago and just coming back to it now. But or human design, how did you navigate life without this manual? And what was your life experience before coming into human design?
Amy Douglas: So, I think I’m probably not different than many. We use our eyes and ears. To show us what is the path that we’re meant to take. And so whether that is witnessing it from loved ones, having someone tell you how to be and how to show up. I had a lot of that in my household. I’m the youngest of three girls. There was a lot of like this, be like this, don’t say that, don’t do that, don’t be too much, did it at, like, not necessarily the Barbie monologue, but you could probably put some words to that as well. And so I was trying to run at a pace in my life that I had witnessed was the way like, there was a lot of pride and applause for being really busy doing a lot of things and not like being quote unquote lazy there. That was a really that l word was really kind of ingrained into our household. We were not gonna tolerate laziness Well, can we redefine what lazy is? Because like, I mean, we all have the opportunity to sit and be with who we are.
Amy Douglas: I think a big pivotal change for me that led to a lot of grief in my life in twenty fourteen. I had a lot of loss in my family. I lost my dad in April. He was only sixty seven and had been battling a lot of hard stuff for nine years. So, we kind of said he had nine lives. And the last one was the taker. And then shortly after that, my mom became very ill. A lot of it was grief. Let’s be honest. They’ve been together their whole life. She ended up spending the entire summer in the hospital almost lost her a couple times. She had severe ulcerative colitis and thankfully, she’s got it at bay, but it was really challenging to negotiate and navigate her being in the hospital after losing dad. And her grieving in the hospital, in a hospital bed was traumatic. And then not no sooner did we get her home and my brother-in-law dropped dead in the shower. I mean, my mom and my sister within four months becoming widows together, it just was insurmountable. And yet I was kind of the rock in the family. Like, we’re all gonna be fine. I’ll help take care of everything. And that’s kind of what I did. I never really let myself feel anything. And honestly, to be real just completely transparent, I kinda like shut off my heart after my divorce about five years before that. I kinda just said, alright, my husband of seventeen years been together twenty, father both of my children left with my best friend. I don’t know where to process that, so I won’t I’m just gonna put on the happy face and exist. Run at the pace that I know will have me running away from any of those feelings. And then fast forward losing, so many family members and just a lot of grief with that.
Amy Douglas: And then in twenty fifteen, my dog who’d got me through my divorce and was only four years old, was diagnosed with lymphoma, and I’m like, oh, hell no, that’s the one person in that note has seen witnessed everything, one person, one thing that had witnessed everything. And so then, you know, whenever I lost him toward the end of fifteen. I was like, what the hell am I doing? And sixteen just really started a deep journey of just my own self discovery and just a lot of letting go of ways of thinking that I had to be. Really giving myself the opportunity to be very curious what I was feeling in my life. Started my journey. I hired a coach. I didn’t I mean, from the Midwest. We didn’t know what those words but my good friend, Google said that’s what you need sunshine if you’re gonna pull out of this. And so I hired a coach out of the West Coast and I was still a very much a trust bit verify kind of person. So it felt only right for me to get the education myself didn’t tell Seoul, did everything under the radar. I wasn’t allowed to moonlight in my corporate life that I was still running a ridiculous pace at. And I empowered myself through lots and lots of deconditioning, lots of letting go, which is the practice that you use in the coaching modalities and just the healing spaces of the world. In twenty nineteen, the beginning of twenty nineteen, I quit my corporate life. And that’s the year that design brought itself into my experience. And I was like, okay, I know now that I’m ready for you, but I had to do for myself a lot of the layers of letting go and, you know, getting curious versus and dropping judgment and letting myself feel things again for the first time. I hadn’t done that. I really shut that part of me off. And design came when it was meant to, and I think it does for many. I resisted it first I was like, oh my god. Just another thing to tell me, whatever. But it wasn’t a questionnaire. I wasn’t answering questions, I know how to manipulate those to get the letters I want or the data that I want. This is very specific information about your birth details. So you can’t really fake those. And it just led to just a really beautiful way of me embodying and trusting myself and believing in myself and allowing me to be unapologetically me, which is what I said I was gonna do when I left my corporate life and I think human design was the open permissions slip to do that for me.
Victoria Volk: Was there a certain moment? Do you remember where you were? What you were doing? Like this was there like this aha moment or was this was there a certain thing? Or thought or experience. Because sometimes we have these pivotal moments, right, that just change the trajectory of our life. Like, because I know so many people who might be in the corporate hamster wheel, who are scared to leave that behind, who desire to venture onto something that is a more authentic expression of who they are. What do you say to those people? How did you do that?
Amy Douglas: In July of twenty eighteen, when I was still going through well, I was in a mastermind with a bunch of coaches, and we were all supporting each other and just I never thought I was gonna lead my corporate life. Like, that wasn’t even in my radar. I was a single mom raising my children on my own. Right? And I had one daughter that was in a private college that was ridiculously expensive. The labeling of it was irresponsible. Right? If I did that. It was safe and secure for me to stay where I was even though I was really it was becoming very clear that I was miserable. My body, our body is our greatest messenger. And from about twenty sixteen, and I’m sure this was very, very grief-related, I started having all these warning signs. My hair was falling now. I had extreme insomnia. I thought for sure that I was gonna have a heart attack in my sleep and my children were gonna find me dead in the morning. Just all these terrible fears, Western medicine, is like your picture health. I am an avid exercise or eat really healthy, meditate, I all the things. And yet, what was I dismissing? What was I not paying attention to? So I think for me to answer your question in July of twenty eighteen, I wrote a contract I was at a conference with a bunch of my peer coaches. And I wrote a contract with myself of what it was gonna take for me to actually leave my corporate life. Like, I’d been ruminating on that all of twenty eighteen. Like, could I do this? Is this really what I want? Can I be free? Like, freedom has been my word since my divorce and peace, which is the signature of a manifestor, okay, has been something that I have been for lack of a better word victory chasing like, okay. What does that feel like? When am I gonna know when I have it? What’s available to me when I do? And so I wrote this contract out, very logically very corporate intense. It’s like these things must be true in order for me to leave. And my peer coaches just gave me a little, a little tap. I had them sign it as my witnesses. I was like, okay, I’m making this contract. These things must come true. And one by one over the course of the next six months, I just they were all limiting beliefs and I just let all of them go. One by one. Those were things I did not have to note that did not have to be true because they were limitations. What are limiting beliefs? They’re beliefs that limit you. From the thing that you wanna be having, being, or doing. And so by December, it was just like, oh, yeah, I’m doing this. Actually, I was on vacation in November. And I said to another couple, well, I’m leaving my corporate life in January. That’s the first time I’d set it out loud. Then I was like, oh, and very manifestor like Right? Say it out loud, and then it becomes your reality. And then by the time I did it on January second, it was a transaction. It was like it was already done. And so I think the aha was actually that contract witnessing my peers going, wow, she’s still really holding herself back without saying those words. Right? Just being intuitive enough to witness their receipts of whatever I was trying to create for myself. And then doing the work to show myself. I didn’t have to have all of these things in place because again, I was creating that safety and security which is not allowing yourself to really take the leap for what you want in your life. And I finally did.
Victoria Volk: I don’t want to gloss over all of the losses that you just scribed before. And but I also wanna talk about this the idea of fear. So can we go back in time though to that divorce? And do you think that that was a catalyst for you to start coming into your own? Really?
Amy Douglas: Oh, my heavens. Yes. I used to make a joke. Like, it was and it’s very, like, I hear it in bitterness now, but it’s like, I take a vote and I always win. What I need to do for this and who gets to do that. And I used to say, but I’m like, how do you do it? How do you do everything on your own? I’m like, well, I figured out that once he left, the only thing he really did that I wasn’t already capable of doing was put the Christmas tree in the Christmas tree stands and open the pickle jar. So I stopped buying pickles. That was easy. And every time I bought a Christmas tree here, I did that, I brought the Christmas tree stand to the Christmas tree farm and had them install it because I can. So it’s just do you see, like, it was just like, did I have the avoidant attachment style. I have now I understand that I have that. And so it’s like, I didn’t need them anyway, type of energy. But it did really empower me to be like, okay, I now get to look at what I in those in those days, I was still saying what I need to do, what I should be doing, what I have to do. I don’t use any of those words anymore. Need, should, and have to, are full of resistance. It’s what I get to do. And it took me a couple years to get there, right? Because I was still really proving my open heart, proving to myself that I could do this. I didn’t need him. I’m good, losing my best friend along with it was hard. That grief is real. It still stings. And just people through your most trusted people in your life gone in a flash and that image of what your life was. It was real. It was really beautiful life. And I remember sitting in the car with my kiddos, we were getting ready to go into a movie. Same year of the divorce. And it just was somber because we used to go to the movies as a divorce, and it was one of our favorite things to do. And I just presidential. I turned the car off. And before we went into the theater, I said, I’m aware there’s only three of us in here. And yet, I’m so grateful that there’s the three of us in here. So how can we make this the best that it can possibly be? And I think that was a real catalyst for all three of us to just be like, okay, we can grieve the loss and we still do. And yet, we can create something different. And that helped us crawl out of a lot. I think because we just prescient it. We were honest about what we were feeling. We kinda did this thing of what are we sitting in the car, staying in the car. So if you’re mad about things or just it’s okay. It’s safe in the car. Safe in the car. And then it’ll stay in the car when we get out. We don’t have to take it with us, you know. We just tried to create some spaces that felt like we’re not gonna be judged for how we’re feeling. Right?
Victoria Volk: I love that. I love that idea. How old were your children at the time?
Amy Douglas: So they would have been Ten and twelve. Yeah. Nine and eleven, ten and twelve, those were some really really hard in eleven and thirteen because Yeah. Those were some really hard years. Yeah. I think, honestly, Victoria, My son just turned twenty three. He has had a major health journey this year. Oh, my goodness. And I think we are both. He’s also an emotional manifestor like us. And I think he is allowing himself to grieve the loss of his childhood, Mhmm. And I’m so proud of him doing it now. And not waiting and carrying it all these years. He’s like, maybe I should’ve waited a couple years, like, till I got out of college and I’m like, you. Happens when we’re meant to, let’s not let’s not resist it.
Victoria Volk: And the best friend. I mean, I imagine too, like, in the relationship you had an extended, like, in your friendship with her, but in your marriage with your husband, you had not just those relationships, but you had circles of friends. Right? And so it’s not just the husband and it’s not just the best friend, it’s the circle of friends, too. Like Mhmm. Was everything just gone and one fell swoop? Like,
Amy Douglas: Yes. Yes. Yes. And we were not from the town that we were in, that this happened, we were, transplants. And we hadn’t been here long enough to really I mean, you know, three or four years just doesn’t feel like long enough where, she and her husband were lifers. Well, now, ex husband were lifers and there was just a lot of scrutiny, a lot of harshness on myself and my children. And the sporting events that you would look forward to going to. Now we’re just so isolating and dreadful. And praying the kids weren’t treated differently, but both of them were. It was just terrible. It was because they had kids and their kids were the same age as our kids and the same gender and so in the same classes and
Victoria Volk: Oh my gosh.
Amy Douglas: A lot of finger-pointing, a lot of assumptions. And while I used to say I just grew really thick skin, I think it was just the epitome of learning that what other people thought about me were none of my business because what really mattered was what I thought about me. That’s the only way I knew how to keep moving forward because I knew I was a good person. I knew that I was gonna come out of this. I knew my children were amazing. And yet, man, just a lot. I tried to get them to just like, you know what? We’re just gonna travel. I’m gonna get a tutor. Run do our own lives, but, you know, too much change, just way too much change for everything. So
Victoria Volk: I’m glad you mentioned that because my next question was going to be, did you ever just consider, like, packing all your bags and just going somewhere else and starting over and making a fresh start and without all of these reminders. I mean, whether your husband passes away or whether you get a divorce or whether it’s this scandal scandalous relationship that you’re describing, where it’s two couples, families are being torn apart. It can be very easy to just, again, like you said, add on more change in things. What like, to have the self-awareness about that, like, and to have really the courage and the strength, to stand up to it. Mhmm. I don’t know a lot of people like you. I’m just gonna say that. I mean, I mean, I’ve been doing this podcast for four years and just knowing the nature of grief and the trauma that had probably on you and your life and your kids. Most people would have just ran the other way. I never think, what was it? You think that
Amy Douglas: My daughter, she’s my oldest, and I put the house on the market. I didn’t. It was a big house. We lived on a lot of acres. We had a horse farm because my daughter used to gloved ride horses, and it was gonna be a lot to just take care of and maintenance and expensive, etcetera. And she just begged. She just said, can we just not change this? And I said, okay. We won’t change the physical location, but we are changing the energy of the inside, and we just changed so many things. I repainted everybody new furniture made rooms, different rooms just to create a totally so it wasn’t like, oh, I remember sitting in here as a family. Right? I just It was like just giving ourselves a quote unquote facelift, just like, okay. If we can’t move and create a new experience somewhere else, we’re going to create a new one here for ourselves. And I’m like, or whatever color you want your room, whatever furniture you want. Like, if you had want bunk beds because you’re done with this, let’s just change it up. Let’s change everything that we can and see what it feels like. Open g center, all three of us, so that felt really good for us. And I would have escaped in a heartbeat. And yet, I really needed to honor where they were. And when they came home and wounded by something that was said. We just I pressed it for him. I just let them talk about it and shared with them kinda what I just shared it’s not really any of our business. And I know they chose to share what they were feeling, but they don’t know us. And you’re the one that gets to look in the mirror every day and lay your head on your pillow every night. So just choose how you want to feel about yourself and that little eye rubber your glue. Whatever bounces off me, sticks to you. Like hold that little childhood chant as best you can and don’t be afraid to tell others if someone has wronged you because we’re not here to take it all in and not get any support. I had them through, counseling if they needed it. I ended up with a life coach for my daughter. That’s what really counseling just was hard. And they just wanted to keep repeating what you’d been going through, and she just wanted she’s like, I don’t wanna feel this anymore. I wanna look at where I am and look at where I’m going and that’s what coaching offers. And it was so pivotal for her. I mean, she and my ex-husband were they were, like, two peas in a pod. So that was hard. She and I thought to be out the female in the We both wanted to raise my son and now we both celebrate that we both raised my son. But it was a big dynamic change in the house. It was a lot to adjust too. And while I did a lot of my own morning and grieving after they were at bed at night, I just didn’t really want them to know that I was going through that for some reason. Now they have both their twenty three and twenty five and have both said to me, god, mom, why’d you make it look so easy? And now I wish I wouldn’t have. But yet, I was doing the best I could with what I had new then. And now I’m honest and I share with them how dreadful it was. How unbelievably hard and I thought many mornings they would find me, in my bed, gone. And while I’m grateful for the ways that I have learned, I tell them all the time I raised you through a lot of my unresolved issues, unresolved traumas, unresolved grief, and I can help presence anything that you’re feeling now, and there’s nothing wrong with anything that you’re feeling. And that feels really good to just be able to have we are the closest tight-knit threesome, and it’s fun because my daughter marrying down my son. It’s inevitable. And just like building that and deepening that, it’s so fun to be a part of. But yet, there’s nothing that’s off limits that we talk about anything and everything. And I don’t know that we would have victory if we would have stayed married. I think we would have lived in that paradigm that, okay, we’re the adults and you’re the kids, and I just let all of that go. Nope, we’re all equals here. Everybody gets a voice. So thank goodness for that.
Victoria Volk: I had full body chills as you were sharing just about the, like, because what I heard what so many grievers do is they put on this armor to be strong for everybody around them. And so what I hear you saying is that you wished you would have dropped that armor in front of them. Mhmm. More.
Amy Douglas: And as I said, our body is our greatest messenger, grief is trapped in our body for sure. And I know that what was happening when my body was sending me louder and louder messages. And so finally, I started listening. I you know, before I just had the headphones on and the, like, the little of those things called the little blenders, you know, it’s like, I gotta move forward. Everything’s forward. Everything’s forward, I’ve gotta show them, you know, I’ll take on all their pain, so they don’t have to feel it. You know? And that wasn’t the answer either. But yet, at the time, it was the solution that felt most aligned until it didn’t And then once I started doing my own work and sharing it with them, you can hear it in them, you know, my coaching, what was what was happening for me, I started embodying and then there’s that ripple effect and my son just latched onto it like, Thank goodness. My daughter was a little more resistant. She’s got a little more energy in her design than I do, and she’s like, I know more than you, and they both do. Which is brilliant. My kids are my greatest teachers by far, but we were all open to hearing each other, giving each other the space to share who we were, what we were feeling And I’m grateful for that. And I’m grateful for the messages my body kept giving me. Otherwise, I would have kept up the facade that I’d built so well for myself, very intentionally because I didn’t want anybody to think that there was anything wrong. I’m fine. Everything’s fine. I’m always fine. I’ve had a friend tell me before. I never know if you’re happy. I never know if you’re sad. I never know if you’re hurting. Because you just show up and you listen in such a beautiful way. And I remember thinking, I don’t wanna do that anymore. I can be unapologetically me. That’s just the language that I knew when I left my corporate life. That’s that’s what I was choosing.
Victoria Volk: Which brings me to a question of when do you feel like it’s the manifestor type, and we’ll get into the types maybe yet in this episode or maybe not. If not, we’ll we’re gonna do a part two, friends. We’ll do a part two, and it’ll be all about human design because I love that rabbit hole, but do you feel like for a manifestor specifically anyone listening as a manifestor type, which you can find on or can you find that out?
Amy Douglas: My body graph is probably the easiest one. So and you need to know your birth time, hour, and minute your birth location, city and state, country, whatever that is, and then obviously your date of birth. Most people know that one without question. But that time and the location could be a little tricky. So those are just three important things. You plug them in and butter bing, butter boom, it spits it out for you.
Victoria Volk: So if you find out you are a manifestor, my question is, do you feel like it’s a manifestor thing that we really don’t allow ourselves to be held. We really don’t allow ourselves. Like, is it a manifestor thing? Do you see?
Amy Douglas: So much. So much. And we have what’s referred to as a closed protective aura. So we’re not easily read. We’re very mysterious. So because we’re not easily read and I had built a facade for myself that no one could see, I was impenetrable. Right? Like, unless I was sharing. And oftentimes now that I do understand that I am really, really meant to share my emotional experiences It helps others. That unlocked such as, like, wait. People wanna know this. People want to hear what I’ve been through. I thought that’s what I did for others. It just And I think, our aura doesn’t empower us to Like, we kind of we’re, like, a little bit off the, you know, like, I’m not sure. A little standoffish. Is this safe? Do I wanna be a part of this? You know? Or oh my goodness, is this gonna be exhausting once I get in? We don’t have the same level of energy as, seventy percent of our counterparts. So I think I’d always been juggling some of that, but just dismissing it, which is why my body got louder and louder, you know. A lot of adrenal fatigue, that’s not uncommon at all with manifestors by any stretch. Not knowing when an up is enough. We do not have that sacral energy that our counterparts do. And so and then you combine that with my open heart, which is, again, lots of human design lingo, but you put those two together and we just we don’t know enough is enough. And I sure didn’t, I was just like, nope, I have to do this. I have to, that’s just the way that and then I started softening and I was like, oh, no, I don’t. And I love my life so much differently than I did before. I love myself differently before because if I woulda loved myself, I wouldn’t have had to build a facade. Right?
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Amy Douglas: Because I wanted people to see me a certain way. And now I don’t care what people see because I know who I am and the right people I will be attracted to and will attract back to me to them.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like there is a period of time where you were looking back at all of your friendships and relationships with people on just thinking how not fake but not authentic. Because if you’re not showing up, knowing who you are, knowing what you bring to the table, understanding what your desires and needs and wants are, you’re showing up for whatever that person wants you to be. So there’s no truth and honesty in that relationship.
Amy Douglas: Actually, I have put a lot of thought into this and a lot of my learning through design. So I have an undefined g center like you. And we’re really we are chameleons and we’re meant to’s, I did have someone say to me once, cut your suit different with your corporate people. And then with your kiddos, you’re so different. And then when you hang out with us, group, you’re so different. We’re meant to. We’re meant to because we’re trying those things on and then allowing ourselves to is this kind of like, which how do I wanna mold and what do I wanna do? So I’m grateful for the years. I allowed myself to do that. I think it felt right in the moment. I think there were things that I was craving that I thought that I could get with some of the connections I was in. And once I started doing my own growth journey that really started in twenty sixteen, I was realizing the toxicity in some of the choices once I was learning more about myself. But until then, I really do feel like my connections were genuine, but I don’t know if they were for migrate or good. I think it was because, oh, they needed something from me. And I felt good about giving that. And while I still get to do that in relationship that I have, that’s not what I’m most drawn to anymore. And a lot of my growth led to letting go of people in my life. And thankfully, I’m designed that it is relatively easy and comfortable for me, and I know it’s not for the other, but it’s not mine to carry. The longer I hold onto it, the more I’m resisting what’s really meant for me. And that has become an easier and easier process for myself, especially learning my design, and the connections that I crave and desire, but I didn’t realize how much I loved my own alone time. That’s very, very common for manifestors too.
Victoria Volk: I very much do too. Mhmm. So what was the role of fear in all of that life experience as you were going through all of that. And can you speak to, like, fear in our human design just a little bit? In your human design and just.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. So a lot of the fear is housed in the spleen, which is one of the nine centers that builds the body graph of human design. I have a defined spleen as to you. And so what when we have something and I’m using that word defined, It just means that we have consistent access to the energy that’s in that center. And the spleen is very instinctual, it’s very primal. Right? The bears coming, I must run. Okay? Let’s face it folks. We don’t have a lot of bears chasing us anymore. But we still are wired to feel that fight or flight. And I think the only fear that I feel like I have connected to in my life. Like, last year, I was living in Florida, and hurricane in came. And I had no fear for it whatsoever. And I was sitting in the eye for hours and everything around me was completely destroyed. I never even lost power, I lost connection with the outside world because we lost wifi, which was devastating for my six-month pregnant daughter. And I wish I could take that back because she has an undefined spleen. So what that means for her, she doesn’t have a consistent way to process that fear. And so it’s like, fear of not enoughness, fear of rejection, fear of repeating past mistakes. There’s a lot of that that’s housed in that center where I don’t feel a lot of that. I think my fear way back before I started my own journey was, what will everyone else think? And now I couldn’t care less, or how am I gonna screw up my kids? That’s the heaviest fear in the world. Is how can I make this easier for my children? Because they didn’t ask for this. And I’m an adult and they’re not emotionally mature enough to navigate this. Quite frankly, I wasn’t even sure if I was. Because as you heard me say early on, I just buried it down. I’m a thirty five year recovering binge eater. They never knew I was doing that. Hell, my ex-husband never even knew, but I was a binge eater. Right? I know how to hide things. But what was I hiding from? Basically, myself. And so I am thankful I’m also in my profile, I’m three in human design. And so I am just like, hey, run out there and see how this works or not. And I have done that my whole life. And I don’t have a lot of fear with like, when I moved to Florida, everybody was like, oh my god. You’re leaving everything behind. I’m like, I know is it great? They’re like, you don’t know anybody. I’m like, nope. Do you even know where you’re gonna live? Yes. I secured that online, like everybody else in the world, I have a lot of that energy about myself anyway, and I don’t go into with, like, I think that contract with myself in July of twenty eighteen has helped a lot in my journaling of flushing out any limiting beliefs that somebody might label as fear. Mhmm. And I just don’t I don’t like fear and excitement or born in the same place in our body. It’s our mind that labels it as such. And so I choose excitement. That’s what I choose.
Victoria Volk: I love that. One thing we talked about before we started recording was because you have so much loss. This is where I’m, like, where do we start? Right? And I had my losses starting very early on in my life. I was a young child. And so I feel like I’ve gotten the worst part kind of over with. Hopefully, I mean, I pray that that’s the case. Right? But before we start recording, we were talking about how we both share that. Thirty five, thirty six channel. It’s that channel of emotional experiences. And I also have what did you say? I had the incarnation cross. There’s I mean, we keep going too.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. You have thirty five in your cross. So that it’s definitely a part of, you know and thirty five is more of that element of, like, desiring change and the thirty six part of it is that crises energy. It’s like something chaotic. There’s emotional turbulence in your life. And so then that kind of pushes you to the throat center of like, okay, what can I change? The biggest part of that wave, that abstract wave is what that thirty five, thirty six is referred to. It’s very emotionally volatile, is our expectations. And think about what we have in the world of expectations. Right? Of others, of the world, of our own experiences, etcetera. And this piece of my design has been absolutely life-changing for me to connect with because I didn’t realize how much chaos I was creating my own life by having these expectations out there. I cannot have expectations of others or anything that is outside of my air coating control because I want control in the highest vibration. Control is a core wound for manifestors. We don’t wanna be controlled, and we don’t wanna be controlling. And I’ve been on both sides of those that fence for sure. And so when I learned this about myself, it’s like, oh, I can drop the expectations. Like, my partner would say something to me and I hung onto it like it was the law. We were doing this. Right? Like, oh my gosh. And then when we didn’t because he’d forgotten he’d even said it, I’m like, I made it mean something about me. Like, I wasn’t worthy, I wasn’t deserving, and of course, or going back to that attachment. Well, I didn’t need it anyway. Right, that avoidant attachment. I didn’t want that anyway. And now, I just have a lot more clarity. And when he does have all these ideas and suggestions, It’s just like a little fluffy cloud and I let it float on by and I don’t hang on to it like the law. It’s more of like wouldn’t it be nice if? Type of energy, and then any expectations I have on myself, I really want to check-in on those. Am I being hard on myself again? Am I trying to prove something? I have nothing to prove. I’m enough exactly as I am. I have enough. I know enough. I am enough. And that has been a critical part of my journey. And then sharing that with others, like, especially if I see someone like you, Victoria, who has this wave. It’s like, what are we expecting? And who are we expecting it of? And how can we allow ourselves to release a lot of that? Because then it will really, you know, that way it won’t hit a way that it could if we have these expectations. And then just noticing that we’re meant to share those experiences as well it really is a game changer for a lot of people. We’re not meant to just harbor them ourselves at all. And that was that was something that I just I thought was unheard of. Why would anybody else wanna hear my trials and tribulations? Well, because it invites others to share those too, and that’s how we move through these things. And we move grief and disappointment and disgust, all those things through us when we empower ourselves to talk about it.
Victoria Volk: And then you can weave in what kind of energy type you are. If you’d have the thirty five, thirty six. Yeah. So if you are a manifesting generator or a generator, like, go do some exercises, go work out, like, just do some high impact stuff, right, to get those emotions out. But as a manifestor, is it the same? Like, to do the same? Like, what’s
Amy Douglas: So it really depends on the mechanics of your design. I have a defined route, and my route is connected to my spleen. And so that has me being someone who is really meant for movement, but any emotionality find your practice. Some people it might be meditation, just really quiet stillness. Right? Some people it might be really cathartic, like just especially as manifestors. I had my podcast co-host get me a damn it doll. You heard of those?
Victoria Volk: No.
Amy Douglas: Oh my gosh. So it’s this little doll that’s all fluffy and it’s like I can use it to hit things. Right? Or throw things or I can act as if I’m gonna pull its legs off And at first, I was like, oh, that’s so harsh, but it is so cathartic. Like, I invite clients to, like, get their anger out on pillows. And letting yourself move through it, throw access, like just move through it, you’re be surprised, dance it out, shake it off, whatever that practice can be, there are symptoms based on your mechanics of how you might do that, that anybody that is feeling something emotional, find a way to let yourself let it out holding it in is literally the worst thing you can do for yourself. But yet, that’s what I was taught Victoria. Like, nope. Suck that back in. Do not share that. And so then I stuffed it down. Stuffed it down. Stuffed it down.
Victoria Volk: And particularly as manifestors anger.
Amy Douglas: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: Don’t show your anger.
Amy Douglas: And this is my son who referenced, is an emotional manifestor. That’s something he said to me recently. Thank you mom for letting me witness your anger. Because instead of, like, my daughter had a very sensitive head, and that was not the most patient person, manifestors typically aren’t doing her hair in the morning before school, before I had to go to work, it’s like all of these things. And then she, you know, they would hurt, and I have to go slower. And more than one brushes were broken. Thankfully, I never used it on her, but I would throw them or smack them down on the counter to get my anger out. And it is important that we let ourselves do that. And my son who has a lot of that anger, certainly at his age too, like things aren’t going your way. Like, letting yourself let it out, fear of judgment or shame. There is no shame in those expressions. Let it out. It often has a great message. Right? We’re misaligned with something.
Victoria Volk: For sure. And I think about too, like, in that thirty five, thirty six, what’s been helpful for me is recognizing that when you were talking about expectations, like the grief that causes us, the self-suffering that we put ourselves through by, it’s like, like you said, when someone says something you take as you take them at their word. Right? And so we can find ourselves in these situations where, well, this is how it’s always been. It’s always been this way. We’ve always we’ve always been this way. It’s different now. You’re different now. Is it a self-practice? Or is this something to communicate with the people in our lives Like, does the human design help us find the language to communicate this?
Amy Douglas: Yes.
Victoria Volk: These things?
Amy Douglas: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, a hundred percent. And again, going back to what the activations are in your design helps you share and empowers you to share your truth. And I think it’s a you said, is it this or is it that? And I wanted to say yes. Yes and both. You have to find your own practice. Wow. I just said, have to. You get to find your own practice. Right? It is important that you find a way to connect that you feel that release. You and I, Victoria, we will feel peace with that release. Right? We also will find peace we’re sharing it with others. It’s important based on our mechanics. Our connection from where all those emotions are coming from, from go straight to the throat. They are meant to be expressed. But somebody else’s mechanics in their design might look different, and so I can help invite them in the ways that they can allow and empower themselves to get through that too. But I do believe, especially in this instance for you and I, it’s a hundred percent both. I don’t think people are meant to just keep things in. That’s not safe. And I don’t care if it is an expression of like they do it in a journal or they they write a book or they have an audio file that they add to daily. I went in December of twenty two, so almost a year ago, I moved from doing a written handwritten journal to an audio app that I speak into. It transcribes it if I wanna see other words, but then I also get to listen to the emotionality of what I was feeling and experiencing. I was a very turbulent time of my life. I was thrust out of Florida where I was loving my life because my daughter was having a terrible pregnancy and I couldn’t not be there with her. I knew I didn’t want to go to Michigan in the winter. Are you kidding me? I didn’t want anything to go north. Right? And yet I did. And it was very I was holding her and her fear and her concerns and the status of her health and all of those things. And if I wouldn’t have created that practice for myself to let it out, journaling just felt like writing it down. I felt like I was filtering it. Felt like I was like, what if she found this? What if she came over and found what I was and in the audio file, it just felt safer trapped in my phone. I don’t know. You find the practice that empowers you to let it out. That’s what I’m offering.
Victoria Volk: I love that. And I think that’s a brilliant place to and this recording today. But first, I wanna give you an opportunity. And you’ve shared so much, and I feel like I do feel like I’ve glossed over so much of your losses because it’s a lot and I feel like each one of these could have their own episode. I mean, really, truthfully, I feel like I’m doing a disservice to you and your grief and to my listeners. I really do. Like, I feel like I’m shortchanging your story here. I’m giving emotional and I don’t know. I don’t know why. I mean, I know why because I’m emotional, but it’s so much. Yeah.
Amy Douglas: And yet, you give me the space to share. And this is what I’m meant to do. Right? This is what I’m meant to do. And I’m double-barreled, is what it’s referred to.
So both of my emotional waves go from my solar plexus to my throat, our emotional center to our communication center, And so one kind of softens the other. And so the way that I feel called to share it is empowering for me. And it’s like part of my deconditioning process because you gave me the space to share it. And if I don’t sound emotional about it, it’s because I’ve done the work to let myself say, it’s okay. I’ve been through it. I’ve navigated it. And now I am meant to share it so others can have their space. And feel empowered and safe and almost given permission to do it for themselves as well. So I don’t feel like it’s been glossed over. At all. Mhmm. I felt like you’ve given me the space to share. And if it helps someone else, oh, that feels so delicious to me.
Victoria Volk: To me as well. So thank you for sharing that. And I want to give you an opportunity to share how people can the different ways people can work with you. And we’ve got, the holidays are coming up. It’s we’re still in October yet, but the holidays are coming up, and you’d shared briefly or recorded recording. One of your offerings is a great Christmas gift, so please share how people can work with you and where can they find you.
Amy Douglas: So the best place to go, I’m not a big social media person. It’s not uncommon kind of in my manifestor world. But Amyadouglas.com is my website and that has and there’s a page for all of my offerings. If you’re curious about human design, the one that you’re referencing Victoria is that little audio file. I do about a twenty five minute mini reading. It is full of deliciousness. It’s like the first glance of everything I see about your design, and it’s so fun to share. I have a lot of moms that give it to their kiddos. Also, by the way, it’s so great for the moms to hear about their kiddos. Because we think how can they be mine.
We’re so different. Hello? We’re all different and we all choose. And it’s so beautiful to witness seen a mom and a child understand each other without those that hierarchical position. Right? So you can see that I also weave human design into a lot of the ways that I support others in coaching. And those offerings are on there as well. I have digital courses. So, and you can connect with me on what I think that’s probably just the best place. I will happily offer your listenership twenty five percent off of any reading. And I’ll give you a coupon code if you want me to have the coupon code be the name of your podcast. Does that feel
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Sure.
Amy Douglas: Most recorded for you. So The Unleashed Heart will be the coupon code
Victoria Volk: or grieving voices.
Amy Douglas: Grieving voices. Okay. The Unleashed Heart is your website. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yep. Yep.
Amy Douglas: Okay. So the coupon code will be Grieving Voices which would afford any of your listeners twenty five percent off of my human design offerings. And happy to connect. I even have, like, a little thirty minute call if you just wanna chat about what might be best for you. You can sign up for something like that as well.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for your time today, and your strength and your courage have I just adore you. I’ve gained so much I mean, I respected you before, but just hearing all that you’ve gone through and experienced, I really, as a manifestor to a fellow manifestor, like, thank you. Thank you for sharing. We are small, but we are strong in mighty in numbers. So the world needs you and the world needs all of us to understand ourselves better because like you said, it’s the ripple effects of that. And the work that we do within ourselves that changes the world. So Yeah. It’s pretty
Amy Douglas: Beautifully said. Yes. Thank you, Victoria. It’s been my absolute pleasure to be with you today.
Victoria Volk: And stay tuned for the part two to come out. We’ll get that scheduled soon because I really am excited to dive deep into all things human design. So until then, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Emotions, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Parenting, Pespective, Podcast, Q&A |
Q&A | Why Do I Struggle In Friendships and Find Parenting Unfulfilling?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In today’s episode, I share an a-ha realization with you: a question I’ve wondered about myself for the past eighteen years.
I answer my own question in today’s episode regarding relationships with friends, my kids, and myself.
An important aspect of growth is self-awareness. Sometimes, we need to hear the right thing at the right time, unlocking an a-ha moment we’ve been waiting to receive. Those a-ha moments can shift our perspective or even possibly change the trajectory of our entire lives.
The best way to put ourselves in the way of a-ha moments is by diving into self-awareness, utilizing tools, and seeking out connections with others who can reflect what we can’t see for ourselves.
As you listen to this episode, maybe you can relate, and if you do, I hope it’s the encouragement you need to explore the inner workings of your mind and heart, too.
RESOURCES:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is that you’re listening to this episode. Thank you for tuning in. And today, I have a bit of a different episode. It is a Q and A, but I’m pretty much going to be answering my own question that I’ve asked myself for eighteen years and that I essentially discovered the answer to just this week. And if you’re not familiar with human design, you may want to be If you’re into kind of a little bit of the woo woo, it’s kind of woo woo, but it’s really not. If you’re into astrology, things like that, this is information and data that can’t be manipulated or skewed because your birth date and your birth time and your birth place are unique to you. So with personality tests like Myers Briggs and things like that, you can easily manipulate the questions, right, to get a desired outcome.
Victoria Volk: On Myers Briggs, I am an INFP but I’m also a Pisces and so that makes a lot of sense to me. But human design is a little bit different in that it’s I’m not gonna get into all the explanatory things about it just because I’m no human design expert. I’m just sharing a pretty big aha moment that I had a realization that I had this week just based on what I’ve learned about my own human design. I originally came into human design, not through human design itself, but through another modality called Gene keys which is kind of uses a similarity of astrology and things like that as well, like human design, but I’m probably saying something wrong in this, description of gene keys, human design, all of that. Again, I’m no x spart, just take it with a grain of salt, do your own research.
Victoria Volk: But I would just If you’re curious, I’m gonna put a link in the show notes to where you can input your birth information and find out which of the four energy types you are. And I think there’s four. Right? Projector, Reflector, Generator, Manifesting Generator, and Manifestor. So there’s five. And I am a manifestor. Interestingly, my husband is also a manifestor, and all three of our children are manifesting generators.
Victoria Volk: No wonder why I was exhausted, raising children. Anyway, because as a manifestor, we have periods of rest. We need periods of rest. And this really this conversation does tie into what I do because this is all about our energy. It talks human design helps you understand where your energy is may be being taxed. It takes a little step further than even like the quiz that I offer on my website for free. We can go really deep with human design, really deep. And when I was first came across it, well over a year ago, almost two years ago, I believe it was. It felt so big to me. It seems so overwhelming. There’s so much to it.
Victoria Volk: The one thing I want to share with you today though is being a manifestor with an emotional authority, with a split definition. And again, these things probably don’t may not make any sense to you, but do your own research and you’ll understand what I’m talking about. But I’m a four-six opportunistic role model. So I’m a manifest emotional manifestor with lines four six.
Victoria Volk: What I’ve learned this week is that I listened to a podcast from that was that’s was started by another fellow manifestor. And aside from my husband, I don’t know of another manifestor. Now, again, I have ran the the body grafts of everybody I know. So there could be manifestors in my life that I’m just not aware of. That being said, this week, I’ve had so many awareness is about probably why my marriage works, why we’ve been able to celebrate twenty years this week. We get each other. We truly get each other. I think if I would have maybe married any other type other than maybe a projector because manifestors and projectors seem to get along beautifully. There could have been a lot of conflict that I would have experienced otherwise. What I’ve also realized is I’ve had relationships in the past, particularly friendships, particularly one friendship I was reflecting on just today as I was listening to another podcast episode about manifestors, is that as a manifestor we generally don’t need people. We don’t need relationships. However, we want relationships. And one of our core wounds as a manifestor is rejection. And so oftentimes, other people are drawn to the manifestor energy. And that can be to our detriment as a manifestor I’ve certainly experienced that myself. You don’t have to be a manifestor to for that to be your experience.
Victoria Volk: I think there’s there’s a lot of different aspects of the body graph of the human design that can influence those things, those experiences you have in your life. But when it comes, when I circle back to that friendship relationship that I previously mentioned, I realized that in listening to this podcast episode because what happens is because we don’t need people, we are rarely inspired by others. We as a manifestor are the initiators. We initiate other people. We initiate within ourselves. I don’t need someone else to initiate anything for me because as a manifestor, I do that on my own.
Victoria Volk: So this is what I mean And what I’ve learned when I say we don’t, as a manifestor, you don’t need other people. But we want relationships. Because we’re human and we desire connection and all of those things. But what happens is as if as a manifestor, you find yourself infatuated with someone else, which from what I’ve learned from this manifestor expert who provides trainings and things on human design. She had said that we early as manifestors, fan girl or fan boy, have fascination with other people. So when that happens, it’s really jarring to us. It’s really uncomfortable. Because that’s when we might have our wounds being exposed that fear of rejection. There’s four core wounds, and I that’s the only one I’m thinking of right now because that’s what I wanted to talk to you about, particularly as it relates to relationships in this aha moment I had.
Victoria Volk: But everything just came so clear to me today that in that relationship, that friendship that fell away, it was me I became I I I absolutely fell in love with this person’s personality. They inspired me I felt. Not infatuated, but just intoxicated by this person’s energy. Like, I was really drawn to this person’s energy which hadn’t happened before in a friendship like that since I’ve been in business. Like, that’s the first business other she’s in business. It was the first business friendship colleague that does healing work and things like that that I became enamored by her and all my shit came up. All of my core wounds came up and I sabotaged the friendship. I realize now the way my energy operated and how my wounds came up to teach me something.
Victoria Volk: I’ve done a lot of grief work and personal deep work since that friendship, like after that was around twenty eighteen. So it’s been several years, but just today, just this week, I’ve had this awareness of this is the pattern for me in friendships, certain friendships at times. Is that’s the shadow of working with your core wounds, and that’s what the human design can tell you. What those are and you can bring them to your awareness and you can have this clarity that makes you hop on a podcast to talk about it like I’m doing right now. Okay. So that’s friendships that’s just one aspect of human design that has blown the lid off of my awareness cap this week.
Victoria Volk: And the main topic and question that I mentioned in the very beginning that I haven’t even talked about yet, and I’m like, twelve minutes in is relates to parenting and parenting as a manifestor. And the same woman who started this manifestor podcast, it’s called, what is it called hunting for purpose. If you have not listened to it, if you are a manifesto, run, don’t walk. Listen to the podcast because I have had so many moments of clarity just listening to her because not only is she a manifests her. She’s also a four line four six just like me, and she also has the thirty five thirty six gate like I do, which is like the gate of, like, the first thirty years of your life, you’re gonna go through a lot of shit. And then from thirty to fifty years old, you’re gonna sit and ponder and reflect. And then from fifty on, you become this wise sage. So I’m I’m getting closer to that fifty in beyond, so I’m looking forward to that.
Victoria Volk: But anyway, she has because she shares so many similar qualities as myself, which a defined spleen as well. We both have. It’s almost as if when she speaks about herself as she is describing me. But she’s coming at it with so much more wisdom about human design that I can’t even like, my brain has been mush almost the sweet just because I’ve been having to do a lot of driving and so I’ve been listening to podcasts pretty much all day, every day. And this one thing that she talked about was motherhood as a manifestor. And yesterday, as she spoke about it. I felt myself getting emotional as a typical emotional manifestor would because I realized that what I was feeling, especially when I first had children and when they were younger, it’s become a lot easier now that they’ve gotten older, they’re more self-reliant. We’ve developed it’s just when you become when they become teenagers and they’re coming to their own. It’s I really feel like we’ve developed some really rich relationships. My children and I individually. And I say with so much gratitude, I have so much gratitude for the growth I’ve had in the last five years that have enabled me to develop those deeply rich relationships I currently have with my kids. And I’m getting emotional, as I say that. So I fiercely love my kids. And so what I’m about to say has really helped me release a lot of grief and grief a little yeah grief, guilt, shame. Because I wasn’t understanding my own energy. I didn’t understand myself.
Victoria Volk: Yesterday, she shared how she announced manifestors as mothers. Motherhood is not fulfilling for us. It’s not enough, and it will never be enough. And I felt a lot of guilt because I felt that way. I have felt that way. I could never just be a mom. I always had to be doing something else for myself, for me that was and I’ve spoken about and tidbits. Like, here and there, like photography starting my photography business was my creative outlet. But, really, tt’s because motherhood wasn’t fulfilling to me that was not enough and that brings up makes me remember another core wound of a manifestor as mediocrity. It’s this feeling of what am I going to leave? What’s gonna be my legacy? Like, not meeting my own potential? My own expectations for myself?
Victoria Volk: And we can I mean, expectations is a whole another episode, but that’s really been another key awareness for me this week? But I just wanted to leave you with this that I cannot stress enough the importance of understanding yourself and getting to know yourself on a level that you probably have never even given yourself the opportunity to explore. Because what I have released this week and what I have learned this week about myself just in my thoughts, just as just in reflecting it with my own thoughts. I feel I’ve grown exponentially as a mom, as a person just be having these things come into my awareness because now I can look at relationships moving forward and look at being a mother moving forward with an understanding of that’s just who I am and that’s okay. And that I’m enough.
Victoria Volk: Please check out your human design. If you’re the least bit curious and you can write it off, you can just like I did at first, like, oh, this is too much. It’s too overwhelming. I don’t have time for this. And it is a lot of in information. Trust me it is. But the website that I’m going to link to in the show notes, it’s has really great explain it. When you click on something or you hover over, it really explains it well. And you’re gonna be like, oh my god, this is this is totally me. This is totally me. But to have someone as another manifestor because only nine percent of the world are manifestors, and our world has been built by manifestors. Because manifestors are the initiators. It’s just been really fascinating to learn that. Yeah. It’s just been really fascinating week. Learning about myself.
Victoria Volk: So anyway, I don’t even really know what the question is this week that I should title this, but why should I care about getting to know myself? Here’s two reasons for you today. If you are a parent and you have relationships, because life happens in the context of relationships, and I can tell you with all the grievers I’ve worked with and the grief work that I’ve done personally myself we grieve in the context of relationships and that includes with ourselves the guilt and shame that we carry for various reasons and feeling misunderstood which many manifestors do. You’ve probably grown up feeling misunderstood.
Victoria Volk: In fact, I was just reflecting yesterday. I had to classmate actually right on my the back of a senior picture that was given to me that I was weird. That I was weird. My kids have told me that, you’re weird. You know, and people need no harm. This classmate meant no harm. It was his opinion, whatever. But I thought about that. I’ve been out of high school. Many years. So the things that stick with us. Right? I just felt so misunderstood. And that remark right there on the back of that picture just zoomed right in on why that’s true. Why that is true, why I felt that that was true. But now at the HIM. Older, wiser I guess, I’m gonna own my weird. I’ve started to own my weird in the last several years and my kids seem to love it. They love my weird and I’m happy about that. My husband seems to love my weird, but he’s weird too because they’re both manifestors because manifestors are kinda weird.
Victoria Volk: So anyway, you’re a manifestor? I see you. If you’re not a manifestor, I also see you because that’s one of the gift gifts of a manifestor as we see people for who they are. Because if there’s any energy type that is misunderstood, it is the manifestor.
Victoria Volk: Get to know yourself, my friends. It is the greatest gift that you can ever give yourself and those you love. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Where Are They Now? |
Patti Herr: Where Are They Now? | Grief, Grace & Gratitude in Motherhood
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patti was my second guest on this podcast back in 2020. In our first recording, Patti shares more about what it was like being a young widow and later dealing with infertility with her now husband.
In this follow-up episode, Patti shares some wonderful surprises God had in store for her in the last three years, including the impact working through her grief with me has had on her life and parenting in the time since she participated in one of my grief recovery group programs.
Patti’s story proves that there are rainbows after storm clouds, how impossible it is to know God’s plans for us, and how beautiful the outcome can be.
Motherhood isn’t easy. However, handling the grief that inevitably comes along the way is possible with a little grace and gratitude.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is a recap episode. A Where are they now with my second guest of grieving voices when I first launched in 20202, Patti Herr and thank you so much for being here and catching us all up on the past three years. Can you believe it? Almost three years.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’ll be three years since September since we initially recorded. That’s wild to me. The original episode was episode 13 and it was titled widow, miscarriage, and IVF. And a lot’s changed. Yeah. So let’s go back in time and talk about a little bit about that struggle with becoming pregnant and in your life at that time and what has happened since?
Patti Herr: Well, I it was kinda it wasn’t fresh but the being a widow was still fresh, I guess. And when I got pregnant, I was like, oh my gosh. How did this happen? I mean, obviously, you know how, but why, you know, I couldn’t give my husband my first husband a baby, and now I’m pregnant with someone who isn’t my husband. And so it was that was a struggle to do, but Now looking back, it’s crazy how I feel like he placed every single child into my life. He knew.
Victoria Volk: You had a struggle getting pregnant and you went through IVF. How and I know your last child though,
Patti Herr: You wouldn’t be. It was a surprise.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was not that idea. So can you explain a little bit? Like, what you’ve learned about infertility and about all of that, you know, experience?
Patti Herr: I questioned it. I was like, did we need to do IVF? Did we need to spend all this money? Like, why, you know, how did we get pregnant so quickly after knowing blah blah blah. But, absolutely, secondary infertility is still a thing. And I don’t think had anything to do with stress or anything. I just think that when you have a baby and when you get pregnant, like, your body almost, like, resets And I think that’s kinda what happened. I think my body reset and I ambulated one month and surprise surprise. And we didn’t think we could get pregnant. So
Victoria Volk: Divine timing, I suppose. Right?
Patti Herr: Yep. Yep.
Victoria Vokk: So how far are you
Patti Herr: They’re 23 months apart because she’s December and he’s November. So
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s so fun. You know, my older too are 18 months apart. And I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t really change it. No.
Patti Herr: It’s hard for me. Enorous kind of hard. But
Victoria Volk: yes. It my last one was a little hard
Patti Herr: In there.
Victoria Volk: But they’re the girls are two years apart. Mhmm. So but I did have them all within four years. Yeah. But I
Patti Herr: don’t know how you did it
Victoria Volk: I wouldn’t change it. It was it was crazy. It’s you know, those years are blur for sure, but now I wouldn’t change it, you know.
Patti Herr: Yeah. I think when they get older, it’ll be better because they’ll have to stay at each other and but right now it’s life is crazy. My house is messy. My house is lived in and Yeah. Life is good.
Victoria Volk: Grace.
Victoria Volk: Grace. Grace. Grace. Yeah. Lots of grace to go around.
Patti Herr: I was born people in, like, just or you know? I have three kids and it’s a mess in here.
Victoria Volk: And why do we think we need to apologize? Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk: I know.
Patti Herr: Because some women have their lives together. I do not.
Victoria Volk: Well and you know, it’s like a lot everybody’s circumstances and situations are different too, you know. It’s, you know, it’s I think in this day in age too where you’re working outside the home, and then you come home and, you know, they call that the second shift. That didn’t exist for a lot of women way back when, like, for
Patti Herr: Well, I’m not working right now.
Victoria Volk: But you are.
Patti Herr: Well, I am. Yes. You’re right. You’re right.
Victoria Volk: You are. You are.
Patti Herr: But we’re home all the time, and I think that’s part of it is, like, when you do work, your house stays a little bit cleaner for a little bit longer because the kids aren’t in it.
Victoria Volk: That’s true. That’s very true.
Patti Herr: When you’re home all day, they’re here all day.
Victoria Volk: There is a trade-off there. There is a trade-off. So you are also a client of mine when we first initially recorded. It was shortly before that, like the year before that, you had gone through the grief recovery program. And how do you think that that has I mean, does it still influence your life in certain aspects or ways?
Patti Herr: Mhmm. It’s still a huge eye-opener for me. Like, I still tell people about it, and it still kind of like in awe. Like, I went in to do this about my husband who passed away and I did about someone who was living. Like, it just in awe, like, how people grieve and who they grieve and it kinda just puts it into perspective. And I think it still and I still like, I don’t write letters out anymore, but I do them in my head kind of or, like, in my heart, I guess.
Because it’s been nine years. And, like, recently, June 9th was nine years for me. So But I still I mean, I still struggle with that living person every day, every single day. So
Victoria Volk: And how have you managed to have a relationship with this person?
Patti Herr: To kind of make my not my life easier, but to manage my life and my well-being. I’ve distanced, I guess, in a way I’m not close with that person. But I still have a relationship with them.
Victoria Volk: And I think that’s the gift of going through grief recovery is that you realize where you need boundaries. Yeah. Maybe where you didn’t have them. Would you say that that helped you kinda implement those boundaries?
Patti Herr: Yep. And it’s I used to feel guilty about it, like, not having that person close because, like, my grandpa’s always like, oh, we need to, like, be together on holidays and, you know, bury your family, blah blah blah. But at the same time, I can still have a relationship and have bound laundries and still saved my heart and my family’s heart a little bit. And our feelings, I guess. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced any loss since we past recorded?
Patti Herr: Not personally, but friends, I guess, I’m not super close friends with some friends, and then just in the community, they’ve had losses. There was just a widow last week. I guess, a lady a woman in Westlake that lost her husband to a tragic accident, and I had planned on going to the funeral and I just could not. Leading up to the funeral, I got very anxious and I just I wanted to be there, but I knew it was not gonna be good, so could not do it.
Victoria Volk: Have you thought about working on that relationship with your deceased husband?
Patti Herr: I haven’t, but It has been 9th years. You think I’d be over it by now, but it just Well, those things and it’s it was the day. Like, June 9th was the day we buried him. It was my fifth wedding like, it was my we got married on that day, like, my now husband. Like, I think it’s a really good day to do all this. But then also so that person, that lady in town buried her husband on June 9th, and I just It was too much on June 9th. And then there’s this there’s a lot in history on June ninth for people in Wishik as well. There’s just a lot of a lot of in the mid beginning of June, I don’t know why now, like, a lot of grief in the beginning of June. But
Victoria Volk: Oh. Yeah. And that’s I wanna circle back to what you said. Like, it’s been nine years. I should be over it by now. And I think we tell ourselves that even two, three, four years in, forty years in. Mhmm. You know, people would say that people say that to other people. You should be over it by now. Okay. The thing is is what that process. And you know this, what that process helps you do is become emotionally complete so that when those days come, they aren’t as they don’t feel a sharp. You know? It’s like it it kind of softens the hurt a little bit, you know.
Patti Herr: I should have done a letter that day, but, like, because I’m good with the day with Jared. Let good with it, but, like, I know how to manage it. But then when that funeral came up, it was it was hard. And I knew it was like yeah. So I took a salad and I did some things around the church, but I just couldn’t do the funeral.
Victoria Volk: And that’s okay. Yeah. That’s okay.
Patti Herr: And I didn’t even know him really that well. I just know her and her family and I still just I mean, it brings back so many memories and it’s hard for that day.
Victoria Volk: I had someone ask me yesterday, you know, what do you they’re gonna go visit somebody who is very ill and die essentially. And she had asked me, what do you what do you say to somebody? Who’s dying or what do you say to somebody who’s going through something like that? And because you had that experience of being a widow, is there anything that you would have liked to have said to her or would like to share with anybody listening who may be experiencing that right now, that that you found helpful or that, you know, from your experience that you would like to share.
Patti Herr: Looking back, during, like, the planning process, I don’t feel like I was there really because I don’t like, then a year later, we buried my husband than dad. He died, passed away the day before, a year later. And I feel like I don’t remember planning any of that stuff. I feel like I left it into a lot of the family’s hands. And sometimes I wish I would have been more involved in picking things and but I just emotionally could not do it. So I just think, like, as for as far as advice, grieve, like, how you want because and there’s no timeline. Like, I say it should be over it, but there really is no timeline. And there are some people that are quick to judge and it’s been this long, you know. But can you really put a timeline on that? I don’t know. I don’t think you can. It would children, with husbands, with anyone in your life. Like, I don’t think you can put a timeline on how long you should grieve. Because or how? Like, I just don’t think so I feel I and I have told the widow this, like, you should just grieve how long you want, how you want, don’t let people influence you, keep those people close that wanna be close, like let them in because that’s those are your true friends. I lost people. Lost friends when Jared died in. It’s not like I did anything. Like, I’m not the one that made him pass away. And I still lost friends. So I just feel like your life will change, and you’re just gonna have to learn how to cope with that. And I think your class would be a great and for that when you’re ready. I don’t think you should have to do it right away or push to do it right away, but eventually, you need to start coping and learning how to cope. I didn’t do the counseling thing. I maybe should have, but I didn’t. So but just talking to someone, learning how to do deal and cope with things is very very high up there, I think, on the advice.
Victoria Volk: And one thing I learned too, just working in the groups, having you in the group and working with other clients one on one in the since, you know, in past three years, four years is now I actually have lengthened the one on one program to twelve weeks, and we work on two relationships. Because I think yeah. Because I think that you know, it’s not this one and done. Mhmm. I think once you work on one and then you work on another significant relationship, it kinda solidifies what you’re learning. And I think it just helps to really get a hang of the process because it is learning. It’s a little bit of a learning curve. You know, it’s new knowledge, it’s new tools, and so I’m happy to report that I’ve learned that you can’t just work on one. It’s working on two can help get that ball rolling so that you feel like this really does impact me in a positive way. Mhmm.
Patti Herr: How long does it agree?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You you kinda wish it would have been too.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But I can tell that I’ve done it not to the full capacity, but, like, I’ve done it with other people in my life. Not not probably as in-depth or whatever, but I have done it with other relationships.
Victoria Volk: That’s good to hear. How do you think it’s going through this program and as your kids are getting a little bit older now and maybe asking different questions, you know, how has the going through the program and what you learned influenced your parenting maybe, and even you yourself, like, and how you parent.
Patti Herr: So I remember specifically part of the class who made this timeline and you’re, like, your dog dying, your fish dying. Like, that can impact every little thing in your life. And so I tried we tried to explain things like eastern kind of a few years ago, went through a thing with a death. And so I got a few little kid books or whatever to be able to read to him. And now I can read those to Norrie and Will and I I think explaining things and making it so that they know, like, I feel like it was kinda taboo. Like, you go to a funeral, like, people die. That’s what goes on in life. Well, you still need to process it. Like, a dog dying, you still need to process it. We had a dog die a year and a half ago. Like, we needed to process it as a family because it was kind of traumatic. So I feel like that’s helped me try to explain things to my kids too.
Victoria Volk: Do you have any tips on how you did that with your children?
Patti Herr: Let them ask the questions and no don’t let them feel like questions are bad or any question is bad. Just, like, let them ask the questions and give them the answers that they need and don’t fuel the fire, but don’t make it taboo. Don’t make it like, you shouldn’t talk about it. Hush hush.
Victoria Volk: Right. Be honest. Help your children be emotionally honest. You know? Yeah.
They’re angry. Let them be angry about their dog dying. You know, that’s okay. You know,
Patti Herr: My oldest is very an an empath and he feels a lot. So I have to do all the emotions with him.
Victoria Volk: That’s good. I mean, and there has to be space for that especially as a child who takes kind of in everything around them. It can be very over the world can be very overwhelming. Even the news, you know, it’s like you’re watching the news and you talking to your friend and your friend maybe went through something and then your dog dies, you know, like all these sad heavy things can really be devastating to a child who is highly sensitive. And so thank you for bringing that up, that not a lot of parents really consider that their child isn’t a cry baby. Mhmm. You know, because a lot of parents might say, quit being a cry baby. Mhmm. It’s you they’re just sensitive, more sensitive.
Patti Herr: You had a half meet, they had a father, passed away a few years ago, and Well, I guess it’s been a year a year and a half. And he he said, that’s so sad. And, you know, I said, well, you just need to be a good friend. You need to be there for him. And So I think that I mean, he asked a lot of questions about that too.
So he feels a lot.
Victoria Volk: Any resources that you have found, that you have utilized yourself other than grief recovery or anything else that you’d like to share?
Patti Herr: I really haven’t. I don’t use money. If I do, I would go to, like, Pinterest and sometimes there’s worksheets or something, but
Victoria Volk: for the kids.
Patti Herr: Oh, well and so I I had put it out there because Easton was very interested on on death and everything. And so I put out there, like, on Facebook, what people did. And they I can’t I have the book in one of their bookshelves, but there is a book about death. It has it’s like dinosaurs and stuff and kind of explains things. And I think I asked my pastor to ask actually, I did. I and I said, well, can you talk to him about it? Like, is there like, can he ask you questions and but I got this book, and then he did some research and gave me some other book titles, and I don’t have those at the moment. But on me but yeah. So I did go to my pastor and ask him and We have driven around cemeteries before and talked about things too. So
Victoria Volk: And even art — Yeah. — allowed children to express themselves through art. Yeah. Play Play Doh crayons, colors, watercolors in that way too.
Patti Herr: We got memorial flowers for the dog.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Easton and his dad saw them in the store, so they got her memorial flowers. So
Victoria Volk: that’s good.
Patti Herr: He still talked about her. He talks about the cat that passed away four years ago. So he remembers a lot.
Victoria Volk: And how old is he now?
Patti Herr: He’s seven.
Victoria Volk: Old enough to understand.
Patti Herr: Yes.
Patti Herr: He’ll he’ll say, I miss this person. I miss this person. I wish I could have met this person like he knows.
Victoria Volk: And so many adults will underestimate what children truly understand. You know, I was eight when my dad passed away and people just didn’t think I understood. You know? It’s like, okay. Well, you see your dad. Yeah. You see your dad, in a coffin, and then, you know, he’s put in the ground, and then you don’t see him anymore. It’s like okay. Well, I understand they’re not in my life anymore, and that’s really sad. You know?
It’s like, don’t tell me I don’t understand. You know?
Patti Herr: Your mind’s understanding at five six seven, you definitely were understanding at eight.
Victoria Volk: By three years old —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — About 75% of how to respond to life.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Well, in that three, that’s when he was asking about death. So
Victoria Volk: Yes. Exactly.
Patti Herr: Very important.
Victoria Volk: And I’m glad this came up too because it’s been something that I’ve I’ve said before, I think, on a different podcast episode, but I need to put resources for books, for children, and stuff on my website.
Patti Herr: And you need to have a class for children too.
Victoria Volk: I can’t actually work with children. That is that’s creating a thing. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And you have to take another class. Right?
Victoria Volk: Well, I can work with the adults of the children. So there’s the program helping children with loss but it’s for the adults to help the adults work with their own children.
Patti Herr: Okay
Victoria Volk: And that’s through the book, actually, this might be a good resource for you when children grieve — Mhmm. — is the other companion book to the grief recovery method is when children grieve. And are helping children’s loss program is based on that book. So that would be a resource for anyone listening. But there is actually a program that I had a guest on my podcast, and she started an organization called shielding hearts. And I’m going to look, I have just I’ve told her and I plan to look into her program because this program, you actually work with the kids, but it’s not it’s kind of along the lines of art and things. That you bring it into schools, the school system. So I’m gonna yeah. I’m gonna look into doing that. So it’s I’m not a licensed social worker, so that’s where some yeah. Get get the poo poo on that. We’re having kids, but It is a passion of mine, for sure, because I’ve I’ve been there, so I understand that children just don’t necessarily have that person in their life where they can feel like they can open up and share. Because oftentimes what happens too is let’s say dad or someone close to you is dying or sick and if or passes away and your your child is asking, what about grandpa? And then you don’t want to talk about it because it makes you sad. So then your child doesn’t talk about it because they don’t wanna make you sad. So then what happens is nobody’s talking about it.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And it’s this thing that you just don’t talk about. You don’t you don’t talk about grandpa, you don’t talk about grammar, whoever it is that passes away.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So what are you looking forward to in the next three years?
Patti Herr: Surviving, if we could.
Victoria Volk: Giving them all in school. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. One won’t be, but the other ones will be. Yeah. But just building our life and working still working on our relationships, like even me and my husband, we I mean, we’re constantly learning single day. Like, I don’t think you ever I feel like you learn about your your spouse and everything, but I feel like you just you’re learning together every single day because you’ve some things you’ve never dealt with or, you know, your kids are getting older, so then situations change and you just learn I mean, we’re learning constantly together how to handle things and how to deal with things. And I just see us having so much fun as a family. And also, I know in the next three or ten years, probably we’re gonna be seeing some losses in our family and that we’re gonna have to deal with, and that’s something that I’m dreading. But it’s just the reality, I guess, and it’s not gonna be fun for any of my family.
Victoria Volk: But, yeah, tools.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yep.
Victoria Volk: And I gotta say too, like, just is there anything that you would like to discuss about being in the trenches of motherhood and, you know, because you can kind of feel like because you weren’t anticipating. Right? You weren’t anticipating them at all. Right? And so, like, now being kind of in the I’ll say in the trenches of it. You know, I was we’re just talking about this and friends and I just the other day. I and I said, yep. You know, people always told me that the days are long, but the years are short, and then it’s so true. It is so true. You know, and when you’re in the trenches of it, it’s like, it’s really easy to lose yourself.
So how are you doing as far as that goes if you’re open to sharing?
Patti Herr: I go through my little tips where I’m like, I can’t keep this house clean and I get my little crying moments where I’m like, I’m a bad mom and blah blah, but the last couple of days, I realized, like, the house can be messy. It will get clean be cleaned someday, and we’ve been outside all day because it’s been so beautiful. And that to me is the best medicine and that’s what’s what makes my kids happy, what makes all of us happy, and dad is busy working in the field, and so we miss him terribly, but we just we play and we have fun. And when we can be with him. We do, and we have fun with him too. And life’s just crazy, and I would say when it slows down, but it never has yet. It’s just crazy busy and I just let them enjoy life and we play and play and play and eat and eat and eat and clean and clean and clean and clean and I just think you have to just have a little bit of faith and hope and everyone tells you, like, just relax. You’ll have kids, you know, when you’re going through in fertility, and that’s not always the case. Sometimes, you just have to take life into your own hands and believe in science and god put science on this world for a reason. And I think that IVF was a beautiful thing for us and our baby was a beautiful thing for us, and the first one was also beautiful because we didn’t think we were ever gonna get that chance. So I just think life is beautiful and it’s short and you just need to really enjoy it and it’s too short to be miserable. Obviously, you go through those moments where you’re not miserable, but you’re just sad. And I feel like you have to be sad to you. It’s a balance. You can’t always be happy happy happy, I guess.
Victoria Volk: Well, and that can be exhausting too to put on that front of all — Yeah. — like, you know, it’s I’m fine. Yeah. And there it that takes effort and energy. It’s a waste of effort and energy instead of — Yeah. — it takes less energy to be emotionally honest, like, No. I’m not good today. I kinda need a mental break.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Some well, my kids need mental breaks sometimes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Right? And from each other,
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s the hard balance too. It’s like that was the hardest part I think for me too. It’s like trying to find that individual time.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s like that firstborn gets so much attention. And then the second one comes along and it gets a little harder. But that third, it’s really tough.
Victoria Volk: Throws a wrench into things.
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: That’s really tough to, like, to feel like you’re giving each child what they need. You know? So that you can feel like you’re failing in a lot of ways. But
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: you know, you do the best you can and
Patti Herr: and lean on each other. Like, you have friends, you have other moms, or dads, or whatever, like, lean on people, you know? Because they’re going through the same thing. They just maybe don’t show it as much or you don’t think they do or, you know, you might think you’re alone.
Victoria Volk: I just heard of a cup there’s a couple of working moms and they exchange, like, their day’s off, like, they’re watching on each other’s, like, that’s how they do it. They they’re killed. They’re both newborns or new oh, they’re new parents, and they’re that that’s what they do. So they just you know, they’re raising each other’s kids. They’re doing it together, and I think that’s a beautiful thing that you can find in friendship. You know, if you have that support. And if you don’t, find it. Create. Ask. You know, how many people are so afraid to ask hey, I have this idea. What do you think? You know, if we just you know, here’s one tip that I’ll share with you. And it is something that we still talk about to this day, our kids talk about it to this day is so I don’t live on a farm. I never have. But a friend of ours did and or does. And we would have what’s called farm days.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So everybody brought their kids to the farm and like the rest of us had, well, two of us were lived on farm two of us lived on farms and two of us were city gals. Right? But, anyway, everybody brought their kids the water, water games, whatever they did, and we just got together, like us women, moms, got to talk and catch up. The kids got to have fun doing whatever they were doing. It was the best. It was the best. And, you know, we did this in the summer sometimes. And Those are the best memories. And oftentimes, they weren’t even planned.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.Victoria Volk: Hey, let’s just have a farm day today. And it doesn’t always work, of course, you know, because things and the phases of life. Right? You go with the phases of life. Now, most of like, there’s yeah. Two of us now. Two of the four have about three of the four have day jobs outside, you know, like, we have places we need to be and things we need to do, so it doesn’t always happen. But That’s my tip. Create a farm day. Ask the girlfriends, you know, especially the other friends that live on farms. Just get together, bring the kids, make it a
Patti Herr: We have a crazy idea. Sometimes, we go to the zoo with all of our kids and we’re like, why did we do this? But then in the end, it’s really fun for them. Yeah. They might cry on the way home because they’re so tired. But
Victoria Volk: But that’s what I’m saying. You don’t even need to drive anywhere. Yeah. To, like, take them out anywhere. You need to, like, mess with the strollers and the diaper bags and just come together —
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: — one spot and just let them explore and find bugs.
Patti Herr: We do try to get together with friends, but it’s I mean, everyone’s so busy. It’s kinda we just need to and that’s my thing too is, like, you just gotta make the time.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Just ask. Yeah. And I you know, a friend of mine too. She was like, you know she’ll ask me and I’ll say, ah, I just I can’t today, but And I told her just recently too, I’m like, you know what? This was a good idea. We went kayaking. She’s like, I was like, this is a good idea. She’s like, I guess I just I said, just never stop asking.
Patti Herr: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know, it wasn’t it wasn’t planned. It was, like, she was she wanted to go. So she’s, like, hey. I’m I wanna go, Kaye, do you wanna go? Yeah. I’ll go. You know? It’s Mhmm. So I think a lot of the times it’s the spontaneous things that is where the best memories are made. So that’s my suggestion to any mom just get together with the girlfriends. It’s important. It matters. It makes a difference. And
Patti Herr: You need to make time for yourself too.
Victoria Volk: That’s true too. That’s true.
Patti Herr: Get a babysitter. Don’t I know it’s expensive and I know, like, oh my gosh. I have to have it babysitter watch my kids, but get the babysitter because you need to have your own time, you need to have date nights. Like, we don’t definitely do don’t do an update switch we will someday when the kids are older. Right now, we just we’re focusing on our children, but get the babysitter.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And speaking of which, people might be listening to, like, your house is really quiet for three kids. Do you have a babysitter?
Patti Herr: This summer, I got my littles into daycare for two and a half days a week. So they’re in daycare today. And at my older one, I made him out of the house for a little while. He might come in here in a little bit. I told him a half hour, so that’s about coming up rather than that back.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so that’s good. I mean, that you’re taking your own advice. Right? I mean, it’s just one day a week. You know
Patti Herr: I do work at McTwist, the Dairy Queen in town one day a week. So I I get an adult interaction.
Victoria Volk: And that’s important. And that is kind of you time. That is mental health time.
Patti Herr: It is. Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. It’s only for, like, six hours, but I love it.
Victoria Volk: It’s something to look forward to to get out of the house. Right?
Patti Herr: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Just Yeah. Yeah.
Patti Herr: And the fact here, like, I need to do this and I need to do that.
Speaker 0: And leave the house without a diaper bag.
Patti Herr: Yeah. Yeah. Or I mean, could I forget a kid? Or
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, I’m so glad things have really just the sun has just been shining on your life and it’s I’m so happy to have been able to catch up with you today. And thank you for sharing what’s been up with you. Yeah. And you know, I do offer alumni groups.
Patti Herr: And she made it to somebody.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, and I could do it online now too. I don’t have to pack a diaper bag. So yeah. So I’ll have to maybe get something like that lined up in the future. Yeah. Is there anything you prefer? Yes. there aren’t. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Patti Herr: I don’t think so. Just live life to the fullest because it’s so short. You never know. You never know.
Victoria Volk: You never know. That’s for sure. Especially, as you just described, you know, that accident that happened. Right? You just you don’t know. You can leave your house one day and not walk in the door later.
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: So
Patti Herr: Yep.
Victoria Volk: All I was gonna ask you too. Do you ever go out to the farm where your husband’s work and have a picnic with the kids?
Patti Herr: We go out there because we have a horse named Marlin, and the kids wanna go see the horse all the time. So we go see Marlin quite often.
Victoria Volk: Okay? But where your husband is farming, though. Yeah.
Patti Herr: Oh, yeah. We well, we take him food, and I actually have to take him chemically. He called me right before this and said, can you bring me some chemical? Oh, so I’m also farmland. Like, I yeah. And we want to move to the farm someday. So we’ll be out there probably in a few years, I would say.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you’re not on the farm?
Patti Herr: Nope. We’re in town. We live in his grandma’s house. We bought his grandma’s house.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my mistake.
Patti Herr: Yeah. But we will move to the farm his parents live out there, but they’re kinda transitioning. So
Victoria Volk: Well, farm days are in your future, I bet.
Patti Herr: Yeah. So women can come find out for farm days because I plan to have all the things. My husband’s like, oh, we’re gonna have funny farm and I’m like, you better believe it. I’m going to that exotic animal sale and we’re gonna have fainting goats and
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Patti Herr: Peacock
Victoria Volk: That’s really fun. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Patti, and it’s been so fun catching up with you. And I wish you a wonderful rest of 2023. It’s halfway.
We’re halfway through. That’s crazy.
Patti Herr: Time goes too fast?
Victoria Volk: Sure does. Well, many blessings to you and your family.
Patti Herr: You too. Thanks.
Victoria Volk: Thanks. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Parenting, Podcast |
Melissa Reilly | A Longing That Never Leaves
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Melissa’s episode embodies several different ways one may experience grief. And as she shares each story, she also provides insight into loss from her perspective as a clinical psychologist.
At age 4, her older sister (age 7) died of leukemia. Melissa’s earliest memories are related to her sister battling leukemia for eighteen months and being bounced from house to house while her parents were away with her older sister for her healthcare.
And, once her sister died, life went on as if it had never happened. Many peers didn’t even know she had a sister until she was in high school. Her sister’s death was something that was not talked about.
Once a young adult, grief was once again a part of her life when her grandfather passed away. It would be the first time she and her sister would begin to talk about their grief from the past and present with each other.
However, grief would knock on Melissa’s door not once, not twice, but five more times. When Melissa was 25, her mother died unexpectedly at age 51 of a heart attack. Even more heartbreaking in that loss was that she and her mother had had a falling out eight months before her mother’s passing, only adding to her grief.
Seven months later, her younger sister of a pulmonary embolism. She would then experience three miscarriages before welcoming a healthy baby boy after a challenging and trying pregnancy, where she managed to carry her son to 36 weeks gestation.
Melissa goes on to share how not all grief requires medication. She provides insight into her belief around this (a belief we both share) and the four women personality types that women (moms without moms, in particular) would benefit from having in their lives.
This is an episode that moms without moms (due to a myriad of circumstances) would benefit from hearing, and anyone who has experienced devastating loss or trauma as a child.
RESOURCES:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Melissa Reilly. She is a clinical psychologist, parent, coach and mom without a mom. Although grief had been a part of Melissa’s life from the age of four, she was shocked to find that a resurgence of grief would be a part of her birth experience. Through her personal and professional life, she has come to recognize that moms without a mom experienced grief during the years postpartum and beyond, even if they don’t recognize it. She’s passionate about helping moms without a mom heal through grief, build community, feel joy and motherhood and move from feelings of isolation, insecurity and overwhelm to a place of confidence and resilience. Thank you so much for being here. And for your time.
Melissa Reilly 0:48
It is my pleasure.
Victoria Volk 0:50
We’re gonna dig right in. And I’m interested always to talk to other child Grievers like myself, because we have a lifelong relationship with grief that a lot of people don’t experience or can’t even understand or comprehend or wrap their head around. And so your grief experience was even much younger than my own mind was around. My dad got sick or wound when I was six. And so then he passed away within 18 months, but yours started when you were four? Yes, so let’s start there.
Melissa Reilly 1:28
Sure, sure. So I was born into a family, I was the middle child of three girls, and both my parents were living in together. And when I was two and a half, three years old, my older sister was diagnosed with leukemia. And so back in the 1970s, leukemia was almost always terminal. I mean, it’s still extremely dangerous and scary diagnosis now, but back then there was there was very little reason for hope. So my parents did the best they can and provided as much treatment as they could, for my older sister, we lived in a rural upstate New York community. And so the best treatment that was nearby was in New York City. So my parents would spend lots of time in New York City with my older sister, as was appropriate. And then my younger sister and I, she was 18 months younger than I, you would be in the care of anybody that was able to care for us. And then unfortunately, after, you know, a year and a half battle with leukemia, my sister passed. And I was at the age of four when this occurred. And so my earliest memories include trips to New York City, being masked back with nobody was, and just the, you know, everything that came along with that, that long process. And then, of course, the the grieving process. In fact, one of my earliest memories is a dream that I had after my sister passed.
Victoria Volk 3:14
Blank, can you talk about them?
Melissa Reilly 3:17
Absolutely. So as you can imagine, a four year old does not have a very strong understanding of what death means, right? So I was very used to my sister, and my parents being gone for periods of time, and then they would come back and things would feel happy or good or safe, right. And so it was common for me to ask, you know, my first question is, when’s Kim coming home? When’s Kim coming home? Right? And so my parents would always answer well, you know, the day of her funeral, which my sister and I were not at. I remember, you know, the ride home in the car. And just playing in the backseat with my sister and then asking, you know, the obligatory question, when’s Kim coming out? And there was silence. And it was pretty obvious that that something was wrong. And so I don’t remember who answered it was likely my mother who said that she died. And I remember not knowing what to feel, knowing I should feel something right. But all I could think about was wanting to get home so I could keep playing. I was four. Right. So that’s a typical response. But so I didn’t quite understand. And then I would keep asking my mother that question over and over. So when’s Kim coming up? Well, she died. How do you remember, you know, we talked about that? Oh, yeah, I know she’s dead. But When is she coming home? So really kind of struggle with that. So one night I had this the stream and my sister when she was ill were this night gown that I remember, you know, it was way too that blue flowers anyway, So in this dream, she was in the psych round, and she came down, I was in my garage, she came down kind of from the sky. And, you know, greeted me. And we started to play. And she’s like, I said, Oh, good, good. You’ve come home. And she’s like, No, no, I’m going to take you to where I live. So she took my hand, and we floated up, you know, to my four year old version of heaven, which was puffy clouds and little sheep. And, again, we played for a little while. And then she said, Okay, it’s time for you to go home. And I was like, okay, so she brought me back down. I’m like, great, you’re staying. And she said, No, you live here. I live there. But it’s okay. We’ll see each other again someday. But not now. You stay, I have to go. And it was extremely profound. Because at that point, I stopped asking the questions. And I know that to be true, because I’ve since looked in, you know, my baby book that was barely written, except the few passages that talked about it. Melissa is having a hard time. And then all of a sudden, Melissa seems to be better. She stopped asking. So that was just always there. But you know, I, you know, that dream, I always found comforting that idea that that she was okay. And she was up in the puffy clouds with the sheep. My version of heaven.
Victoria Volk 6:27
How old was your sister than when she passed away?
Melissa Reilly 6:30
She just turned seven. And unfortunately, in fact, the day before we’re recording right now, yesterday, was her birthday. So she would have been the D52.
Victoria Volk 6:45
What do you think when you look back in hindsight now, as a professional, doing the work that you do, in knowing about grief that you do? What do you think could have been handled? How do you think it could have been handled differently? For you and your younger sister?
Melissa Reilly 7:06
Well, that was a great, great question, because of a number of things. One, my parents did the best they could. But my mom was so determined, right? To make sure that my sister’s death was not going to impact me and my younger sister’s life. So they just plowed forward as if nothing happened. And again, it was with the best of intentions, right? We had just all suffered, and she didn’t want us to suffer anymore. So a couple of days after, you know, a couple of days after my sister died, my younger sister turned three. And my mother had a birthday party for in our house, right? So she’s, like, just buried her oldest daughter, and now she’s having all these, you know, little toddlers around for birthday. I mean, she did everything she could. And then, you know, I started kindergarten at the age of four, because she wasn’t gonna let anything stop me. Right. So, but But clearly, you know, I wasn’t ready. And then, you know, again, with the best of intentions, it was so painful, but we never talked about that at Victoria, our family, just one day she was here. And when they she wasn’t, and life went on as if nothing happened. And we literally never talked about it. We never talked about my older sister. And we never talked about the experience of her dying. And so what happened and I realized this, at the time, until it was much later that what that did is that created the sense that death was something that was so terrible, you could not even talk about it, or it would destroy you. And, and I didn’t realize that until I was in my young 20s. I was blessed off for my grandparents lived until my adulthood. And me and my younger sister, were talking at the time in which my my first grandfather was having major medical problems and was becoming clear that he was at the end of his life. And so we were talking and both of us we’re expressing our fear of him dying. And she made this this comment, I don’t think I’ll survive it. That’s pretty startling response. Right? And so that so a man in his 70s, who’s lived a full life having a natural death, right? I don’t think I will survive it. I don’t know how I will get through this. And so thankfully, I was in therapy at the time, right? And I mentioned that to my psychologist, and she was stunned. She was like, wow, that’s that’s, that’s not a usual response to a normal death. And I was like, really? Well, why not have it? It’s that hard, but how are we going to be okay. And it was at that point that we were able to discover that that unintentional thing that my parents said by never talking about it right to me Let us have a happy normal childhood. What it did is it created this undeniable terror of death. Right? which thankfully, you know, worked through, you know, that’s not an issue anymore. In fact, I’m very comfortable with death. But you know, this idea that your children don’t remember, or children don’t grieve in the same way as the so maybe that’s your children do not grieve in the same way. But the profound nature of childhood grief is still present and evident. We just don’t have the language in the prefrontal cortex to process it in the same way as adults do. So,
Victoria Volk 10:41
Oh, so much to unpack there. I had a similar experience, like it just wasn’t talked about. I take that back. And this isn’t to vilify parents, right? You know, because I’ve had guests where they just want to be clear, like, they did what they could, they did what they knew, right? And that’s what I talk about all the time, as we resort to what we know. Yes. And if we didn’t receive this education, of how to address grief, and how to process it, and all of these things that I talk about on a regular basis, we resort to what we know, and we don’t know what we don’t know. Right. And it does create a lasting impact in a negative way, it just does when we don’t take ownership of learning this stuff. And that was, you know, a lot of my experience in a lot of ways, too, but a little different, of course, because my situation was different. But yeah, not talking about it. Children will create their own stories. Yes. You know, what I talk about a lot, too, is how grief, we kind of grow up with grief as a child Grievers. And it changes with us, and we take us everywhere we go. And so it’s always there. How did that change for you? I’m especially curious into your teenage years.
Melissa Reilly 12:04
Well, I, you understandably, so became quite depressed at the age of 13. I mean, it was clearly genetic, in my, in my family history anyway, and growing up with grieving parents, you know, has an impact. But I remember, you know, becoming a teenager and just becoming utterly, you know, depressed and feeling this intense sense of something missing, and just something wrong with me, and just never, never enough. And, you know, again, parents did the best they could, right, but, but they were impacted by their own grief experience. And so part of then what I learned to do was try and be the best that I could be right, to make them happy. without ever knowing I was doing that. It just became part of who I was. and AM, you know, I mean, I don’t know that I’d be the person I am today, if it wasn’t for the experiences that occurred early on, but in adolescence, always needing to be what others wanted me to be, you know, which can become quite problematic, as you can imagine, always trying to make people happy, and just internalizing all those feelings of bad thought being good, never good enough, and just miserable, and not really feeling like there was any place for me to talk about those things. Again, I think my mother would be horrified to hear that that’s how I felt. But but that that is how I felt right and hiding her process from me to the best ability that she could only meant there wasn’t an openness about it, which meant, I never felt that permission to be open about it. And, you know, it was an unusual experience. Nobody, I went to a small little school, nobody that I knew had siblings that had died. I wasn’t really exposed to other child Grievers. In fact, interesting story. So my sister would have graduated high school two years above me, and when her senior year would have been one of the people that gratefully took took us in, during that time was aware, right that I had an older sister, in fact, the same grade, as her oldest daughter was. So that’s one of the ways that we were connected, because my sister did go to kindergarten periodically and a little bit of first grade when she wasn’t in the hospital or when she wasn’t, you know, in danger. So there was a little bit of awareness there. But anyway, so So she said, Oh, your sister would graduate. We should include her picture, you know, in the senior picture section. So, you know, we got this picture, which was, you know, again, that that quintessential picture that’s always in your head it right that the one that’s always given. And for her it was right before her her final relapse until it was like when she looked her best at her oldest picture. So that was put in the yearbook. And it was, it was beautiful. It was a full page tribute right of this little seven year old, barely seven year old little girl and her name. And I remember when the yearbooks came out, I had a whole bunch of people come up to me and ask, Who is this little girl? She was your name? Like, nobody knew I had a sister, like, oh, well, that was my older sister. So then I had to keep you know retell the story. And what struck me Victoria was how people kept referring to her, that little girl’s your older sister, is the phrase, little girl, because I didn’t see a little girl. And I didn’t realize I never saw a little girl, I only ever saw an older sister. And I didn’t realize that actually, until just a number of years ago about how significant that was, because I could never see my sister through my current lens. I always saw from that lens of the preschooler that the tiny person like always, just constantly, just back through that set of eyes, which means means I was always can go back to that place of early life experience without without knowing it. I mean, it for most of my life, when I looked at the picture, I was startled by how I never saw this little girl ever. I do now thankfully, no, because I’m in a much different place. But it just really struck me as odd.
Victoria Volk 16:43
There’s so much in that because when you don’t have anyone to relate to you, you do feel like you’re all alone. And I relate to much of what you shared small school, same thing, like I didn’t know anybody that lost a parent and adults didn’t know what to do or say and know is we all we just we aren’t taught this stuff, you know, how did this experience? And you know, grief is it’s never just one thing, right? It’s always it’s cumulative, and it’s cumulative ly negative, and I have not yet met a single Griever, who has not had multiple grieving experiences, even though like you said, in your information that you would submit it to me, you just don’t even realize it. And so, what have been some other experiences that have informed your life today, work you do?
Melissa Reilly 17:41
Well, um, like I said, I was I was blessed to have all four of my grandparents until adulthood. And then, you know, I started to lose, you know, I lost my first grandfather, and that was it an end of life death after a fulfilled life, you know, with us having a good relationship. So, with regards to grief experiences, it was, it was natural and normal. You know, there was nothing complicated about it, other than the sadness of the loss. So I was very thankful to have that experience, because it was, in many ways, a healing, corrective experience for me, to know what it was like to grieve as an adult, when everything was, was healthy and appropriate. And then unfortunately, not long after that I had a series of losses. So my mother passed away at the age of 25. I was 25. She was 51. Wow. Yeah. So very, very young died from a heart attack. Suddenly, my little sister bless her heart died seven months after my mom passed away. So those two losses were were very significant and very difficult. And a complicating factor for my mom’s dying was the fact that we had a falling out eight months prior to her death. And that falling out, never was completely healed. So so we were pretty much estranged for those last eight months. So that made that difficult. And then, you know, my younger sister had mental illness, and she was just really struggled, and was in and out of psychiatric hospitals, probably four to five months out of those seven months, you know, not in a row, but in and out, in and out, in and out. And then in supportive housing after my mom passed, unfortunately, I was the one that told my sister, you know, about our mother’s death that my dad had called me when my mom died. And you know, so I went, you know, we lived in different places. I lived in Pennsylvania. I was living here, actually in Pennsylvania. At the time. They were in New York. So I went right up. And then my sister was living in Connecticut. So soon as I got there, you know, we drove to where my sister was living, and she was living in a supported housing community. And so we told the staff members, what was going on and it’s Make sure she was there and to have a staff member present. And my dad just couldn’t do it.
Victoria Volk 20:05
This couldn’t do it. So I did. I needed to tell her and your dad is still living.
Melissa Reilly 20:12
Yes, he is. He is God bless him here. He is. So, you know. And then, you know, when my sister died, seven months later she was in the she was in the hospital when it happened, pulmonary embolism Go figure. But yet the doctor called me because he couldn’t do it. I get a call in the middle of the night, the psychiatrist in a mental hospital telling my my sister had died. Again, yeah, drove up to my dad. And then so then he was just beside himself. And, you know, he’s like, I’ll never forget, his comment was like, I can’t put everybody through this again, we’re not going to have any funeral or anything. I said, No, that’s not acceptable. You know, you’re not putting anybody through anything, she died. And so we had funeral and, and did all that. But I needed, you know, to arrange it and make it all happen. And again, I’m not angry at my, my dad. I mean, the, you know, this was the second child he had buried and it was only seven months after he buried his wife. So oh,
Victoria Volk 21:28
It’s amazing that he is still alive, you know, in a lot of ways because grief, it takes a toll. It’s exhausting. And is there a part of you that maybe isn’t even surprised in a way about your mom’s sudden death? And even your sister’s like sudden death?
Melissa Reilly 21:46
No, no, not at all. I mean, it’s just a lot. You know, my sister’s best friend when she was in seventh died in a house fire, you know, and both my parents were there, because they were part of the community ambulance and fire squad. I mean, so just so so much that and then, you know, my dad remarried and his second wife died after 15 years. So we buried her. And now he’s married to another woman. But But yeah, it’s just, yeah, yeah. So she, she died after my son was born, my, but my son doesn’t really have a memory of her because he was too young.
Victoria Volk 22:22
And that’s just it, right? Like these experiences. Never leave us. Because then you become a mother. And then all of these insecurities come up. And all of these moments that you don’t have your sisters, and you don’t have your mom and you don’t have these shared experiences. And this is where people, I think, kind of, I mean, I fell into the trap of thinking, Gosh, I guess I’m just here to suffer my entire life because it was just loss, trauma, loss trauma. And you can get easily in that downward spiral. And I kind of want to circle back a moment to where when your sister older sister did pass, because and why I asked how it kind of showed up for you as a teenager, because what I’ve come to realize lately is there’s always there’s like two camps of kids, child Grievers. It’s those that act out anger, slipping grades, go down a different path. And then there’s the other that don’t want to rock the boat. Don’t know, boundaries are people pleasers try to be the best at everything they do. You know, there’s two kinds of kids that are child gravers. And what’s interesting to me, and what is what society does, and really what is damaging to children is that in my opinion, is that we look at these children like you and I, who wanted to be the best we could at everything we did and had this underlying perfectionism about us and didn’t want to rock the boat. And, you know, everything I just said, and then the children that other children that are deemed as problem, children, and neither really received the support that they need neither. No, but the children that choose a different path. This is where I’m not surprised that we are a society of addiction. Right?
Melissa Reilly 24:27
Absolutely. My sister struggled with addiction terribly. And, you know, it was a way that she coped with the mental illnesses that she experienced. And just, you know, I mean, she encountered death she was barely old enough to talk right you know, I mean, her own life was was filled with it. Their own. It was just terrible. You are a licensed right? You’re a licensed psychologist.
Victoria Volk 24:54
Okay, so in your professional opinion now, was it grief that your younger sister Did she have like a diagnosed?
Melissa Reilly 25:03
Yeah, my grief, grief was part of both of our lives. Right. And, you know, kind of fueled the development of personality. She also definitely experienced she had bipolar one. And there were times when, when when there would be, you know, a psychotic process to it as well. Now, would she have had that had our life been filled with grief from the beginning? I don’t know, I think both of our lives would have been extremely different, right. But you know, both of us through our childhood, we experienced our emotions through physical problems, right. I had migraines that were so bad at the age of 13, I was taking in China medicine, and I was the only child I knew that would go to sleepovers with her heating pad, because I would get leg pain so bad, just all these weird physical things that weren’t physical. I mean, they were I mean, they were true physical symptoms, right. But they were caused by emotional distress. So the brain, as you know, forms over 25 years, our brain isn’t done growing until 25 years old. And so when it is flooded continuously by the stress chemicals, and constantly in this place of hyper vigilance, our whole physiology is impacted, and our whole sense of self is impacted. And our whole ability to regulate emotions is impacted. And so your mental illness and grief become intertwined in many ways. And so I don’t think they could have been teased apart for her or myself, or, you know, my aunt, my, you my mom was an only child. My father had one sibling who was 15 years his junior, so she was closer in age to us. She’s more like a sister to me. And yet she was kind of this last child also, because, you know, nobody talks about my family. Certainly, you know, for her, it was like nothing ever happened. And so in more recent years, thankfully, her and I actually been able to talk about what it was like living, you know, our childhoods and the ramifications of that one experience or sequence of experiences and how it impacted us, you know forever.
Victoria Volk 27:18
Well, and that’s just it, right? You can have one event, but the ripples of it is everlasting. Yes. And so as a mom, now, you have one child? Well, I
Melissa Reilly 27:32
Well, I have two sons, my oldest came into my life when he was three years old when I married his father. And then I birth our younger son, and he’s the only child that I gave birth to.
Victoria Volk 27:45
And so what I know, you spoke a lot, you spoke of that in your information you submitted in So how has that you know, and that shapes a lot of the work that you do and the people you work with? So can we talk about that?
Melissa Reilly 27:59
Absolutely. So, you know, it had been 15 years since I had my that, you know, my mom had had died, I you know, was married now and unfortunately, had three miscarriages prior to the pregnancy with my son. So just kept experiencing grief up to a degree, right?
Melissa Reilly 28:20
And I was just blown away. I was like, you know, and I knew a miscarriage was was common, right? One in five pregnancies end in miscarriage. So it is pretty common, but by the time you have three, that’s pretty rare. And so at this point, I was like, Oh, my goodness, what is going on. And we are in the process of finding that out when I became unexpectedly and unintentionally pregnant again, and was terrified. And really, as that pregnancy progressed, I knew I was extremely high risk these feelings of longing, again, that I hadn’t had for a while this longing for someone who is missing resurfaced, and was just overwhelming and continuous. So now it was all of these people. I felt like I was missing as well as the fear of losing another and I was having these distorted thoughts that I wanted a girl but having a girl was frightening to me because all the girls in my life died. So the men seem to be okay, but females not so good. So, I went into labor with my son at 26 weeks until the remainder of my pregnancy was either in the hospital or in bed and back and forth, getting shots and doing all kinds of things to sustain that pregnancy. which thankfully, despite only being given a 10% odds of maintaining the pregnancy, I carried him until exactly 37 weeks. Wow, gave birth and and, you know, he was healthy. What we discovered late, he’s got some neurological Oh issues based on some of the shots that were given, which had to be given. But you know, in general, he’s doing amazingly well. But it was at that point during the pregnancy and then giving birth that I realized just how alone I was and how unprepared I felt, and how isolated and insecure and what an imposter and this was coming from someone who was just days shy of her 38th birthday, who owns clinical practice, who taught Child Development at the graduate level. So I had all these resources behind me, I was very confident in who I was, as a woman as a professional. And I was so blown away with insecurity, and isolation and overwhelmed and not knowing what I was doing by this little infant. And I felt like I didn’t have anybody to ask, because I felt such an intense feeling of shame over not knowing what to do. And nobody understood. You know, I was getting all these platitudes. Well, moms feel that way. Sure. Yeah. All moms Yeah, that’s normal. That’s normal. That’s normal. Well, it isn’t. It isn’t normal to be a mom, without your mother, and to be going through all of this. And that’s why I’m doing this because I know now my son is now 11. And I still look back on those first few years. And it still pains me by just what a difficult time it was for me. And it saddens me that that my son’s first few years of life involved all of that. And it saddens me for me to write it was just such an intensely difficult and troubling time, and nobody was talking about it, nobody is talking about it, nobody talks about it. So so that’s why past couple years, I made the decision, you know, in my clinical practice, I was starting to see more moms without a mom. And it became something that I began talking about with them about how different the experience is, and how real that that sense of isolation and lack of community impacts us and how draining it is, and how grief for a mom, you know, either a mom that’s died, or a mom that you don’t have a relationship with. And I can get into that in a few minutes. How that is real, even if you’re not recognizing that as a grief process. And so, after working with a number of moms within you know, my clinical practice, you I realized there was this this real gap that I thought I was well positioned to fill. And so that’s why I began you might my coaching program, specifically designed for moms that have mom this way I can reach a broader audience, right. And so not just those that are coming into my clinical practice, because of mental health issues, but but those that that you know, are from a place of health, and just needing some specific assistance related to mothering is as a mama.
Victoria Volk 33:14
What are three things? Or I don’t know why three came to my mind. Maybe I think I know that you have three things to share. But so three things came to my mind, what three things, tips, suggestions, things that you’ve learned? I don’t know three somethings about your experience, your own experience, and what you try to get across to those you work with in terms of moms without moms.
Melissa Reilly 33:45
Okay, so absolutely, I do have three things. So it was perfect. But first, I want to define who a mom without a mom is. So you are a mom without a mom, if you are a mother who is separated from your own mother, by death, by emotional estrangement, or physical distance. And the reason I include all three of those things is because there are three or three categories is because there are three things that all women in those categories seem to, to share. So one is that grief process I talked about. So you’re either longing for your for your own mom, that can’t be part of your life, or you longing for the presence of a mom who is loving and supportive and can provide guidance. So those moms that are separated from their own mother by emotional strange men, you know of their mother may be alive, but they’re not in their life because of either toxicity, emotional abuse, and so they still don’t have the ability to connect to go to the They have emotional baggage themselves related to memories of their mom, right. And so it creates that difficult piece. And then those mothers that are separated from their mom by physical distance, they also experienced this grief, this this loss, this sense of not having what they thought they would have when they became a mom. And again, that’s somebody there. So, so we experienced grief, right? Second thing is there is difficulty with community. All right, so Mom’s got a mom don’t have the same go to person that other moms have. And so I have some strategies for that as well, right? So Mom’s got a mom need to build strategically their mom community, they can’t just rely on a relationship they they’re comfortable with that being their mother. And then the third thing is mom identity. Right? So who am I as a mom, when I don’t have my mom to mirror myself after. So there’s lots of moms out there whose moms died when they were really young. And so they they may not even have, you know, that role model figure, right? Or they had a mom and their relationship was, you know, not good. And so how do they, you know, figure out who they are, that’s like their mom, but not like their mom. And so all those factors get pulled into play, you know? So those, those are three common threads brief difficulty with community and then struggling with mom identity. All right. So when it comes to grief, specifically, the one of the things that the three things that are really important, right, is first to be able to recognize that what you’re feeling is grief. All right. So, you know, grief, can show itself in many different emotions. So we’ve got sadness, hopelessness, anger, fear, right? We also can experience different ways of thinking, right, this longing, the questions of what would have been those conversations that we never had, or would like to have replaying over and over in our head. And then of course, physical symptoms, right? The the decreased energy, changes in appetite, sleeping too much or too little, right? So we have all those grief experiences that we may or may not label as grief. And I think many moms, particularly in postpartum, get identified as having postpartum depression, which they may or may not have. But the underlying contributing factor is a grief process. So first, we have to recognize right, identify, oh, you know, I’m not necessarily thinking about my mom. But I’m just feeling really kind of alone and isolated, and just yucky. Right? Let me identify that that’s okay. You know, maybe that’s part of grief. So I can normalize it. The second is to be able to express our cultures, you know, all too well, Victoria, is so uncomfortable with grief, right? And so people don’t like when we express our stories, even the happy ones, right, they try and cheer us up, or take us down a different path, right, and distract us, you know, get her mind off of it. While it’s not really helpful, we need safe places to be able to express our stories, right? The good ones, and the not so good ones, then the third is to be able to fill in some of the gaps, right, and that kind of leads into that community piece I was talking about. So filling in the gaps means getting the support in ways that you’re needing that that person that you’ve lost, would have felt or filled. But in different ways.
Victoria Volk 39:07
All good stuff. I can identify with some of what you said there. Even with a postpartum you know, I experienced that after my second but even more so after my third child and it was kind of a struggle of a pregnancy. Yeah, as well. But go see your doctor. Right away. They want to give you a pill, you know? It’s yeah.
Melissa Reilly 39:30
Yes. Oh, my goodness. And you know, don’t get me started on that, that you don’t medicate grief.
Victoria Volk 39:35
Hey, let’s go there. But what I’ve seen in your practice or what have you all this what can what guidance can you give people listening before they take that step? Like how do you? Here’s a good question. Yes, I think it’s good. How do you discern for yourself? Well, you know, I guess I just need to get on something. They’re trying to say that I should you know, you can just a small milligram, right? I don’t know what else to do, I’m overwhelmed with all these feelings and emotions just going to get on this thing. And that’s, you know, they suggest this.
Melissa Reilly 40:09
Well, first and foremost, grief hurts, it is painful. It hurts to the core of your being. And it is normal, I think that is so important to realize that grief is painful, not all hurt, creates wounds that you need to do something about. So for example, if I were to pinch you, it would hurt, but it would not create a wound, the hurt would diminish, and you’d be fine. But if I were to pull off a piece of your skin, that would cause a wound that we then need to treat, you need to do something about. We, in our culture, when we’re exposed to pain, we become distressed, and we fear that it’s creating this wound, something that we need to do something about. And that just is not the case, most of the time, grief hurts, it is supposed to hurt, we have lost someone or something very dear to us, and it is going to hurt however, you have the ability to be okay, even with the hurt, the pain, the hurt itself, is not damaging, and the intensity of that pain is not lasting. In that way, forever. Grief lasts forever, right? I will grieve the entirety of my life. And I know that but my grief experience now feels very different than my grief experienced it at earlier times in my life. So the first and foremost thing is if you are experiencing pain and you are crying, if you are struggling to get out of bed, if you are distracted, and you are in the early stages of grief, that is normal, it is really okay, that most of your energy is going to simply functioning, I want to give you permission to just let all of your energy go to simply functioning. It’s really okay. Now, it is not appropriate to medicate an uncomplicated grief process. Many physicians, medication is their primary tool, right. And they are physicians because they want to help people. And so they give the tool that they have, unfortunately, they give it too quickly, I don’t need a hammer to push in a tack into a piece of cork board. It’s not appropriate. So when you make a decision for medication that should occur. After several other things have happened, you’re one that you’re talking and you’re getting support around your grief process. And that talking can be with friends family, it can be with a you know, professional, so counselors, therapists, psychologists, a coach that specializes in grief healing, and after a period of time, so I’m talking several months, you are still not able to function in basic ways, right? So caring for yourself caring for your loved ones, functioning within your place of occupation, or academics. You know, if you’re in the academic route, that’s when you start to consider medication. But, again, simply because you’re not back to normal self, after, you know, three days, three weeks, three months or a year, that isn’t necessarily a reason to then go on medication, that if you meet criteria for a diagnosable mental illness, then certainly medication could be part of your treatment process. But if that’s the case, then I highly recommend, you know, getting support through counseling, and not just medication, because medication alone is no more efficacious than counseling. In fact, in long term research, medication alone is less efficacious than counseling, because you don’t learn anything simply by taking medication.
Victoria Volk 44:17
And that’s where I think the biggest pieces is you learn you have to learn new knowledge in order to apply it and integrate it into your life. And there is a fabulous quote, I shared it on a different podcast episode, I think, but I got it in my inbox, and I just I just love it. And it talked about how knowledge isn’t power. It’s the application of knowledge that truly empowers us. Yes. And so that’s what we talk a lot about in Grief Recovery. It’s, as you know, in the work that I do with specifically grief, it’s multi layered. And so I would even say, even if it’s not within the Year, give yourself some time. Oh, gosh, it’s layered, and it’s yours, especially if you’ve never had therapy or never addressed anything you’ve got probably decades. Right?
Victoria Volk 45:12
It’s tough to work through.
Melissa Reilly 45:13
Right? And one year is simply the achievement phase. Right? Because it’s the year of firsts. Which doesn’t mean it gets easier or better necessarily, right? For me many times your three was a bigger struggle. And then, you know, depending on your own experiences, right, so, you know, when your child, especially if we start thinking about milestones with your own children as they age, right, so your child turns, for me, you know, the year they turned seven, was was a trigger year, right? It was constantly hyper vigilant about how they were doing, and constantly thinking about, Oh, my God, I can’t imagine their life being over. Oh, my God, I can’t imagine what this was like for my parents, right? So there was a real increase of my own grief process, you know, coming, you know, at a time that knew had nothing to do with their milestones, right? It was just the age in which I had my first grief experience. So so it gets gets triggered at many different times.
Victoria Volk 46:21
And that’s where to I think childhood, grief is very different than opposed to someone who may have first experienced grief as an adult. Is it really is this lifelong relationship?
Melissa Reilly 46:36
Yeah. You know, and I think one of the blessings that I recognize now is that I’m very comfortable with death.
Victoria Volk 46:46
I go there. Yeah,
Melissa Reilly 46:48
I don’t fear it, right. I don’t like it.
Melissa Reilly 46:52
I don’t fear it.
Melissa Reilly 46:55
Which provides me with a sense of comfort, and a sense of resilience. And so I feel very comfortable going to those places of fear and grief, and with the people I work with, right, and I can hear their stories, and I can just sit with it, knowing not only that I am okay. But they are okay to even though their feelings so badly in the moment. And that the best gift I can give them is to honor the space that they’re in. But to change how they feel, to simply honor it and give it the space it deserves.
Victoria Volk 47:39
That probably never was given. Correct for a lot of Grievers. Right. Right. Is that one of the things that grief is taught you?
Melissa Reilly 47:51
Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt.
Victoria Volk 47:55
Is there anything else that you feel? I mean, you share it a lot woven into your personal story and in the work that you’re doing? And, and thank you for the work that you’re doing. Thank you. That’s a really probably an untapped area of grief. I haven’t seen it before, I guess. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Melissa Reilly 48:15
Well, you know, I think one of the biggest things, takeaways today, I want listeners who are moms, that a mom to know is that you are not alone. And that what you’re feeling is real. And significant. And so I encourage you to reach out to talk about it, to let people know that you need support when you need it, you know, to build up a sense of mom community. But most of all right to know that you are okay you’re doing the best that you can. And your mothering may look different than other people’s mothering. And that’s okay, because you’re doing it on your own. And I applaud you.
Victoria Volk 49:00
So do you have a community?
Melissa Reilly 49:03
I do. I have my my personal community. And then I have, you know, my professional community. So my personal community? I include four people, right? So wise woman, this is the woman that can answer your questions and, you know, has lots of information and that could be a professional, right? Your emotional support. So this is the person that will listen. Anytime that you just need to express your emotion. They don’t try to cheer you up. And they don’t give you advice, they just listen.
Victoria Volk 49:35
Like a personal showman.
Melissa Reilly 49:37
Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Reilly 49:39
The fourth is the go getter. So this is the one that can get things done. So you need laundry done. She’ll do it right. So the we all have friends like this that are always busy and always doing something and we think oh my god, I can’t keep up. Right? So the one that you can ask to help at any time. And then the fourth is the late night talker. So this is somebody that you can call Part, basically, anytime. So those are the four people, I recommend all moms, but especially moms, that a mom to have in the corner. And, you know, I have those in my life. And then you know, professionally, you know, I’m building a community of moms without a mom. And so I would invite your listeners, if you’re interested to reach out, you know, offering recall, you know, we can connect, I can hear about your particular situation, right? I encourage people on social media there are, I’m on Instagram. So you know, I talk a lot about moms without a mom. In fact, that’s my my name. My mom said that among you. And so to become part of your community of people that get it.
Victoria Volk 50:47
So people that work with you then get into a, like, you have an online community?
Melissa Reilly 50:53
I will be creating an online community. I haven’t formed that yet. But that’s in the works. So hopefully, I’m hoping by this summer that I’ll have a group, you’ll probably start with a Facebook group, but I will be developing a larger coaching program. But right now I’m doing just individual coaching. And I’m part of that community so.
Victoria Volk 51:21
Wnd where can people find you, for your website?
Melissa Reilly 51:25
My website is momswithoutamom.com. So very easy, and it’s moms with an s some moms without a mom.com.
Victoria Volk 51:36
Nice, and I’ll put the link to your social and website and things in the show notes. And awesome. I love those four kinds of moms to have in your corner. That’s, that’s wonderful. That’s a wonderful tip just for anybody. Yes, really?
Melissa Reilly 51:51
Yes. And no, the strengths are your friends, right? Because none of us are all for those. Right. So if you know that, you know the person, that’s the go getter. She may not be the person that’s great at just listening. And vice versa. I mean, I’m a great listener. And, you know, at this point, I’m, I’m kind of a wise woman as well. I am not the go getter. My laundry stays in my own machine for about a week. So you know, we all have our strengths. So, so, you know, don’t expect one person to do it all.
Victoria Volk 52:24
And that’s the thing, you know, like my, for my podcast, cover art. It’s me on an island with a megaphone. And I didn’t have that sense of community. You know, when I, I was a new mom. I mean, I had some family here, but you know, it’s the girlfriends. You know, it’s I think that’s so important. As a mom took me a long time to develop that and curate that for myself. Yes, yes,
Melissa Reilly 52:52
Yes, yes, it is difficult. And I was an older mother. So you know, my friends all had teenagers and young adults.
Victoria Volk 52:58
Oh, sure. I mean, that’s another grief. Right? Like,
Melissa Reilly 53:01
Yeah, being out of sync? Absolutely. So but yeah.
Victoria Volk 53:07
Oh, good. Thank you so much for everything that you share today. And it’s unfortunate that we have to go through some really difficult challenging times to be in a space of healing, helping others heal. But I wouldn’t change anything. And I don’t suspect you would either.
Melissa Reilly 53:29
No, no, I wouldn’t.
Melissa Reilly 53:31
And not at all. Again, you know, I am the person I am today because of all that I’ve experienced and learned and then what I’ve done with it.
Victoria Volk 53:41
But there can be guilt and shame in that too. It’s like, you know, this is where I want. I had a fleeting thought when you were talking earlier about, you know, the emotions that grief brings, you know, you’re talking about sadness, and anger and all these things, but there’s also joy. Yes. And then we feel guilty for feeling joy.
Melissa Reilly 54:00
Absolutely. Because, you know, I talked about having containers, and we can hold multiple containers, right? And so you can grieve for the loss, you know, of a mom, you know, and the longing for that and have the joy of being mom and love your child, right? You can experience all of that. And so you don’t need to feel guilty that this may be you know, front and center right now. That doesn’t mean this isn’t there. Just that front center, and it’s okay.
Victoria Volk 54:33
Yeah, so yeah, moment to moment. Absolutely evil. And that’s absolutely not as normal and that’s natural. You’re not crazy.
Melissa Reilly 54:40
No, not at all.
Victoria Volk 54:41
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
Melissa Reilly 54:45
You are very welcome.
Melissa Reilly 54:46
Thank you for having me. I’ve enjoyed it very much.
Victoria Volk 54:49
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Cancer, Chronic Illness, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parenting, Pespective, Podcast |
Rachael Burns | The Space Inbetween
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
How would you live your life if a ticking time bomb was woven into the very fabric of your everyday life?
Would you carry on business as usual? Would you live like tomorrow is not guaranteed and chip away at your bucket list?
Rachael’s story isn’t about a ticking time bomb that is in her body. Rather, it is about the ticking time bomb of grief that lies in wait due to the one her beloved has in his body. However, that is only part of Rachael’s story.
What if, newly married, you found out you were pregnant, but not only with one baby, but two! What are the odds?!
But what if, a day later, your spouse has a seizure; soon after you find out he has brain cancer? And, not just any cancer – this kind is aggressive, it can never be completely surgically removed, and most people die within 18 months of diagnosis?
The ripples of grief are felt deep and wide. And, when the love of your life, and the father of your children, are living with these odds, how do you truly live?
Rachael’s story doesn’t stop there. She would find herself in her own health crisis after having the twins. Her kidneys were failing, her husband had to forego his chemo because she was in the hospital, and they were both faced with the question of what if something happened to them both? Who would take care of the babies?
After the dust settled, processing all that had transpired has been a process all on its own as well. Grief isn’t only about death. As Rachael’s story illustrates, it’s near-death experiences or living while death hangs around waiting to take you out that cause grief, too.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I am your host Victoria Volk, and today I have with me Rachel burns. She is the founder of true worth financial planning, which helps newly single women get their finances back on track after divorce or the death of a spouse. Her passion for helping women in transition was inspired by her own experiences with grief after her husband was diagnosed with brain cancer. She is a certified financial planner and a certified divorce financial analyst. But most importantly, she’s the mom of three-year-old twin boys. Busy, busy time. Thank you so much for giving your time to my audience today.
Rachael Burns 0:41
Thank you, Victoria. Thanks for having me on.
Victoria Volk 0:43
We have chatted briefly before and I’m excited to chat with you again and for you to share your story with my audience, because I’ve heard it a little bit, but we didn’t get into the deep of it. And so I’m looking forward to that today. But what has been your experience with grief, up until what you’re about to share today?
Rachael Burns 1:10
Before my husband’s diagnosis, my experience with grief was very limited. Fortunately, I had not experienced experienced much in the way of loss except for, you know, grandparents passing away and things like that, but nothing that really shook me to my core, like what I was about to experience. So I had been very fortunate to have a very boring life in that way up until then.
Victoria Volk 1:42
How long were you married? When you and your husband got the news?
Rachael Burns 1:45
We been married probably about two years when we found out when he was diagnosed. So it was still, you know, early, early in marriage. But we had been together for several years before that.
Victoria Volk 2:01
Having children. Was that a conscious decision? Or I mean, I don’t want to say where they oopsie you know what I mean? But because I think that would be a challenging thing, right? Do you? Do you take that path? Don’t you take that path? Like what did that look like that decision making? And
Rachael Burns 2:18
So we had them on purpose, we knew we were going to have one we I guess the second one was an Oopsie. Because they’re twins. We didn’t know we’d have to. But we had planned on having kids. But we found out we were pregnant. I think the day before he had his first seizure. So we didn’t know he had brain cancer when we when we got pregnant. So basically, he comes home from work, I’m like I’m pregnant. And then the next day he had a seizure, and didn’t tell me because he didn’t want to overshadow the good news. And it was a relatively minor seizure. And so he wasn’t super concerned about it, he went to the ER by himself and didn’t tell me this is totally like my husband. And because he had had a relatively benign brain tumor when he was young. And so it wasn’t like that alarming to him that he had a little seizure. So basically, we found out about these two things that are almost exactly the same time he was diagnosed. So we found out we were pregnant, found out he had a brain tumor, found out they were twins, and then found out it was not a low grade recurrence of his old tumor. It was super aggressive grade for glioblastoma. So all of this news we got at almost the exact same time.
Victoria Volk 3:37
Wow. What are the chances you must have asked yourself that a million times like what are the chances like why?
Rachael Burns 3:44
Yes, I thought about that. And I and then I kind of came to the conclusion that we are the one percenters we are the ones that all these really rare events happen to? It’s like, what are the chances of having twins? What are the chances of having this brain cancer if literally, I mean, it was like, it was really bizarre. The odds of all of these things happening were so small that it was like, Well, of course it’s going to happen to us because we’re one percenters or point one percenters?
Victoria Volk 4:15
So the tumor that he had as a child had that been removed?
Rachael Burns 4:19
Yes. So we he was 16. He had a grand mal seizure, and they immediately did surgery and removed the whole tumor. It was a low grade tumor, you know, they took it out because they don’t want it in there. But it wasn’t even really growing. Like they don’t even know how long it had been there. So when it came back, it was in the exact same spot. And, again, they were like, oh, it’s probably not a big deal. It’s probably been growing very, very slowly all this time. But when they took it out, and they biopsied it, they realized it that wasn’t the case. It was a it was a high grade tumor. and that type of tumor you don’t, you don’t ever get it all out. It’s, it’s like, has little tentacles that kind of grow through your brain and you can’t see it on an MRI all the time. And it’s not something you could ever completely remove. So very, very different situation than when he was young.
Victoria Volk 5:16
So what was that like? Like your pregnancy? Like, I mean, that’s it’s stressful alone. I imagine hearing news like that, yeah. And planning for, because what the prognosis was what
Rachael Burns 5:28
The prognosis was really bad when they told us that that’s what what came back with the pathology. They said, Don’t go online and don’t google it. Because the odds are really, really bad. Like, you’re going to be really depressed if you go online and look at the life expectancy, because statistically, life expectancy is an average of 18 months after diagnosis. And that’s really like best case scenario, that’s assuming that you’re able to have a successful surgery and treatment with radiation and chemo best case scenario, you you maybe have 18 months to live after that, but a lot of people and people that I’ve met at the hospital or in waiting rooms for radiation, or whatever, a lot of people die after a couple of months after being diagnosed. So it’s like a really, the prognosis was really bad. They, they said, you have some things in your favor, you’re young, you have these certain genetic traits like that they were able to see when they did the pathology that they could tell that his case was, you know, it’s still an aggressive cancer, but it’s not as horrible as it could be. So there were like, you’re probably going to be on the higher end of the range. But still, they gave us I mean, it was, it was like a couple of years, was the timeframe that they that they gave us. And so that was a difficult thing to process. And as they’re telling us that I’m sitting there with my bagel belly, you know, I’ve got twins that are on the way there was so much. I mean, what we thought our life was in an instant change so much having the kids on the way just made it extra complicated. I mean, obviously, but and extra tragic. And it was just so much to process at one time,
Victoria Volk 7:24
And even just having twins is risky to write. So yes, like, what is the risk to you, as a mother and I can’t even imagine, give us a day in the life of what that was like.
Rachael Burns 7:37
So at that time, Rob had taken some time off work after because he they got him into surgery pretty quickly. And he started doing radiation right away. And I was still working, and just getting more and more pregnant by the day. So, you know, we’re still trying to do normal, quote, unquote, normal stuff, I was still going to work and Rob wasn’t allowed to drive because of his seizures. So I was taking him to radiation every morning before work, and dropping them off. And then you know, leaving for work worrying about him having a seizure when he’s home, alone. And, you know, I’d go to work, I try to get everything done, I tried to be as normal as I could, but it was, it was just, it was just insane to like manage the treatment, you know, the the logistics of the treatment, but then also just managing the emotions and the fear and, and trying to support him. And it was so overwhelming that you just kind of go into shock. And you kind of don’t even realize, you just you just kind of go into survival mode, and you’re not really feeling anything because you’re just like so overwhelmed that I just kind of went into autopilot and did what I had to do to get through each day. Until Until the kids were born basically. And then that definitely shifted a lot of the focus off of his situation, which was kind of kind of a good thing for a little bit. But once the kids were born, then I had some major health issues. I had some pretty bad complications after they were born and was hospitalized for a couple of weeks. So Rob was home, he had to take a break from chemo, because he was home alone with the kids when I was in the hospital. Luckily, our moms were dropping in to help and stuff but like, we had to disrupt his treatment because I was in the hospital with like kidney failure and a pulmonary embolism and all of this like majorly life threatening postpartum stuff. And so he was freaking out thinking I was gonna die and then he was going to die. And then we would have these little babies that had no parents. You know, it’s one thing to plan to try to grasp. Something happening to one of us but like Yeah. And that, that that fear was relatively short lived because I got stabilized fairly quickly. And after that, after I got home from the hospital, I was not in any imminent danger. But there was a time there were, like, we were worried about the kids being orphans, and, you know, needing our parents did raise them, or it was just like, wild, wild time.
Victoria Volk 10:24
And you’re sitting here and you’re telling me about it, almost like it, it’s a recipe. And, you know, I’m, I’m very curious, like, what was the day like, we’re just all kind of hit you, and you allowed yourself to feel and get off autopilot.
Rachael Burns 10:45
It took a, it took a couple of months after the kids were born, where I looked back and thought that was really bad. That was really, really dangerous. It was a really dangerous situation. might let me I mean, health wise, like that, that was as close to dying as I’ve ever come. And once I actually had some time to think about that, it scared me even more like how critical it was. And then, but then, like, thinking about my own health would make me feel like, this is small potatoes compared to what we’re dealing with, with prob like, I’m, I’m gonna be fine. I will survive, but his situation is the same. And so is like, realizing what happened, like finally kind of feeling some feelings about it. And then quickly, remembering Oh, yeah, there’s bigger stuff to worry about. And going back to like dealing with that. So there’s just been, it’s been like one thing after the other, and there’s been so much going on that it really is hard to feel anything, because you have to deal with the next thing. Right away, and you don’t even have like the bandwidth to like, acknowledge your feelings, which is kind of weird.
Victoria Volk 12:14
Do you feel like that’s true for you today?
Rachael Burns 12:17
Yeah, it’s, it’s easy to it’s easy to get wrapped up in the day to day stuff and stay distracted and kind of detached, that’s easy, because just because of the amount of activity in our lives, but then it’s hard. You know, when when I do when I do think about things, and I do remember things, and I do feel those feelings. It’s like, well, what am I going to do with that? I can’t, I mean, I can’t fall apart, I can’t flip out, I can’t, I don’t really have any option other than to just keep chugging along. And so it just becomes this like new reality where there’s this, like, underlying stuff that we all know is there. But there’s not a ton that can be done about it. So we just kind of pretend like it’s not there, which may or may not be healthy.
Victoria Volk 13:13
Do you feel like it’s been impacting you or has impacted you, like physically your body or like emotionally psychologically?
Rachael Burns 13:23
Yeah, it impacts everything. That kind of stress absolutely impacts your, your body and your physical health. And it’s kind of hard to know what issues are stress related and what are, you know, leftover issues from having twins or, you know, COVID related stress and inactivity and all this stuff there. It’s hard to know, it’s hard to know, like how to attribute it, but But it’s certainly impacted every single aspect of my life, physical, emotional, everything. It’s just it’s not always super obvious. But I mean, someone has to kind of beat it out of me a little bit.
Victoria Volk 14:11
I don’t know if you get the impression I’m trying to beat it out of you. I know. I am, I am needling a little bit. Because what I can relate to tiny, just tiny tiny is, you know, we had a family emergency health scare with our son recently and I recognize that autopilot where you you’re shift your focus to what needs to be done and your energy to that other person and, and then when you get in the quiet of your own head, and in your own space, it’s like roof like it just hits you and so have you had moments like that? And have you allowed that to wash over you and
Rachael Burns 14:57
I haven’t felt over overwhelmed with the grief and quite a while just because things feel pretty normal right now, he’s my husband is not in any treatment, his tumor is not growing, it hasn’t been growing for a while. He’s going to work, he’s acting normal. And it’s easy to forget that that ever happened to kind of feels like, that was about dream, or that was a past life, or it’s, it doesn’t even feel like that was real. And I know that he and I deal with things very differently in how we express grief. And I’m someone who kind of verbalizes stuff. And he is someone who, who goes inward and needs to be quiet and not talk to people and doesn’t want to acknowledge his emotions or talk about them. And so it’s even if I wanted to talk about it, or express myself, that’s not really someone that I can do that with, because that’s not his style. And that would actually upset him. Because I, it might be more painful to him that I’m raising things to the surface, and he doesn’t want to do that. And so, you know, you can only express that with certain people or in certain situations, but it’s, I mean, for the most part that’s not happening at home. So yeah, partially, it’s like easy to kind of ignore and pretend like it’s not happening. And then and then. And then even when I do remember, it’s like, well, I don’t know, I don’t really have a ton of options and how and how I can deal with that. I have to keep going, I have to make things normal for my kids, I have to build my business and keep working and be in as good of a spot as I can in case something changes. And falling apart emotionally doesn’t allow me to do that. So I just I kind of feel like well, I don’t have the option of like, really flipping out. Even though I’d kind of like to sometimes.
Victoria Volk 17:22
Do you channel that energy in a different way? Like, have you found a way that you can channel the energy that that emotion when it comes up or or even just to when it’s not coming up. But just because I imagine there’s some anger there, like, you know, just anger of this. It’s this ongoing thing that you can never outrun? Right, you get out run it? And it’s always just like you said, the undercurrent of it is there. Yeah, Have you have you found a way to channel your emotion.
Rachael Burns 17:22
I don’t know that I’ve channeled it but what what I have noticed myself doing is just getting more and more focused on work, like just it’s all I’ve been thinking about and, you know, on the nights, weekends, whatever, I’m always just, like, really obsessing about work. And part of that is because I enjoy my work and part of it is that work needs to possibly support my family at some point. And part of it is I need to keep myself busy so I don’t dwell too much on things. So that’s not the only reason why but I do think that some of that energy gets channeled into the work just because it’s something that I can control it’s something that I can make positive changes in our life does make me feel like I am not powerless. I guess you’re doing something. Yeah, like I’m being productive. I’m taking the right steps because you can’t really be you know, with grief, it’s not productive. You’re not a comp, you’re not like, Oh, I’m I’ve gotten this much grief out of the way so then I only have this much more. It’s like it’s it’s it’s always going to be there. It’s not going away. But part of me feels like okay, I have to be doing something to make the situation better all the time.
Victoria Volk 19:21
In Grief Recovery. One of the myths of grief is keeping busy. So I just want to you know, for anyone listening if they find themselves in your story, have it’s one thing to because my husband he just last night, I’m nights weekends. I’m a hustler, I hustle maybe it’s part of our personalities to like how we’re wired right? To almost detach from what is happening and then pour energy into something that we feel like you said you can control it you have some say in What happens here? I don’t have say a nap. But I have say in this right, yeah. And I find it interesting, the work that you’re doing is with widowers. And so a part of their story, you obviously can relate to in a way that isn’t exactly the same. But you understand this idea. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. But I actually, you’ve expressed this before, briefly. But could you just articulate how your work is being influenced by your experience.
Rachael Burns 20:36
While we were in the midst of everything, and while it was fresh, one thing that I remember is, obviously being overwhelmed with all sorts of parts of this problem that we had to deal with. And some of those were very practical things that we had to worry about. Some of those were, you know, just worries, but because of my background, in my career, you know, I’m a financial person, and have been for a long time. And so one thing that I didn’t worry about at that time was anything financial related, because we had all the things in place that we were supposed to have in place, we were like the poster children of having an estate plan done and having the right insurance and all these things. And so when this happened, I didn’t need to worry, oh, my god, like, if he can’t work, what’s gonna happen? Will you have disability income, if something happens to him can I like, there was a lot of practical parts of that, that I didn’t have to worry about. And the the idea of needing to manage the finances on my own, if I needed to, did not bother me, because I have that background. But then I was thinking, you know, not everyone has that kind of background. And that, for a lot of people is a very, very big component of their stress and their fears. And that was something I didn’t have to worry about. But I wanted to help other women, particularly who are in that situation, because that was something that I could at least offload for them, or help offload? You know, I can’t make things go away, but I can, I can help them understand it and make a plan for the future, at least for their finances. So my goal was just to alleviate some stress from someone who’s going through a difficult transition, whether that’s someone died, they get divorced, they, you know, something unexpected happens when there’s all sorts of transitions that can happen where we have grief associated with that someone doesn’t have to die. But that’s where I felt like I could relate to women that were in that situation, and I could offer them my financial knowledge, but also I my own experiences with that, that I think that helps give me a different perspective and helps give me helps me gives them better quality, support.
Victoria Volk 23:09
And to me, it sounds like it’s meaningful work to to as you’re kind of journeying through this process with your husband.
Rachael Burns 23:19
It is it absolutely is. And I had a feeling that would be meaningful, but I never knew just how much I would get out of it until I actually got into it. Because I’ve been a financial advisor for quite a while but didn’t work with women in transition until everything had happened with our family. And I enjoyed my job before. But once I was working with women in that niche, I got a whole new level of satisfaction from helping women who really, really needed help, and I really identify with them and I have met just hearing their stories and learning about them as has just been such a amazing experience. Even though I’ve been working harder than I ever have before. It doesn’t feel like work because it’s so enjoyable, which is so weird, because a lot of the situations or difficult situations that I’m trying to help with, but it doesn’t feel like work. It feels like I’m trying to help a friend. And that doesn’t feel that doesn’t feel like work. So it gives me a lot of energy to be doing the work that I really get a lot of joy from
Victoria Volk 24:34
That’s when you know you’re aligned in what you’re doing because yeah, like my husband said last night like Don’t you get tired of looking at that computer? You know, like he has to literally almost like pull it away from me and I’m like, but it doesn’t feel like work. Yeah, you know, I’m like creating posts, you know, for my Instagram about grief and, you know, sharing something that I think might be helpful or working on my newsletter or doing this podcast or doesn’t matter what it is, if if I feel like it’s serving someone, I get a lot of gratifying gratification from that. But I want to ask you to, because when I was a new mom, motherhood brings out like all of your insecurities known as entrepreneurship, you’re like, you’re you are where I was, feels like forever ago. And I remember what that time was like, and I personally was, felt like a basket case, right? Because I had grief that I had dealt with. I was, like I said, all my insecurities were coming up in my parenting and all that all these things, right. And so what I just can’t imagine, like also trying to parent twins, first of all, but just trying to parent twins, parent in general, the parent twins, and, and having this undercurrent of concern, fear, all of those things, while trying to navigate all the feelings that are coming up being a mom, like, what does that look like for you.
Rachael Burns 26:15
I feel like we had so many things going on that we’re competing for attention, that it prevented us from obsessing too much about any one thing. So because of what was going on with my husband, it made me a little bit more relaxed. When it came to the kids. I think that if the brain tumor stuff had never happened, I honestly think I’d be a much more neurotic mom. Like, I think I would be panicking about the house being dirty, or about the kids eating something that’s not organic, or like, I know how I was before all of this has happened. And it’s one good thing that has come out of this experience is my priorities have changed. The things that I actually worry about, that list has gotten a lot shorter. Like it’s just made me reassess what’s actually worth worrying about. And so, because of that with the kids, I’m like, whatever, like, I’m doing the best that I can, I genuinely believe that like, this is a tough situation. In a lot of different ways. I’m doing the best I can, I just don’t have the bandwidth to like, freak out about them. spilling stuff all over the carpet and permanently staining it. Like I’m just like, whatever, we have bigger fish to fry. But then at the same time, it goes the other way too. Like with Rob stuff, it’s really easy to get lost in that kind of despair. But then I’ve got these like little kids running around, like hitting each other with fake swords. And it’s like, Okay, I can’t even focus on one thing long enough to like, really get upset about it. So we’ll see what happens when the kids get a little older and aren’t like when it’s not as chaotic in my house.
Victoria Volk 28:10
There you’re keeping busy right now.
Rachael Burns 28:13
Gosh, yeah, yeah. And then also, they just are so hilarious and sweet and wonderful that like there’s so many joyful moments throughout the day that it really counterbalances the stress, or the or the worry, because you just can’t not be in a good mood when you’re around them. For the most part, they do like, scream and you know, they’re like me press. But for the most part, there are really lovely little distraction.
Victoria Volk 28:48
I just was thinking my son, we’re talking about my son, he’s going to be a senior in high school next year. And my husband’s like, I just don’t want to believe like, you know, it’s, I just so remember, I just last night I was just last night I was going off to sleep and I was just like, just for a day I would love to go back in time. And just revel in their curiosity and their I could cry just thinking about it. How Yeah, just just how fast the time goes. And like you said, it’s shifting your priorities. And so it’s not even that they’re this beautiful distraction. It’s like they bring out something when they bring out your insecurities. They also bring out like the kid in you to write the things that you know, you want to get out your sword and pretend and chase and you know all of those things. And fortunately, my husband is like a big kid and that is still a thing in our house. Yeah, there’s no such thing as boredom when there Yeah, that’s such a fun age. And I think Got to allow yourself to embrace that time, regardless of what’s going on. It is probably a beautiful gift that these little people have given you.
Rachael Burns 30:10
Oh, my God, I, this situation would be. So it would be so much different. I think it’d be so much worse if we didn’t have them. I think about that. And I think, oh my god, I can’t even imagine like going through this, just with the two of us and not having something. There’s always something to look forward to with kids. Always. It’s like, like, I’ve been telling my husband in the last couple of weeks. I’m just so excited for Easter, because the kids get so excited about Easter egg hunting, he’s like, it’s February, like calm down. And I’m like, No, but there’s always something to be so excited about. And oh, I can’t wait until they can do this. Like there’s always some milestone, it’s just around the corner. That’s so exciting. And it’s sad when they’re changing so fast, and they’re growing so fast, and you miss how it was when they were smaller, but at the same time, all of the new fun things that they do makes you forget about what you were sad about.
Victoria Volk 31:11
So I’m curious amongst the craziness and the quiet when you have it and everything going on with your husband. That is pretty steady, right? It’s steady. Yeah. How have you been tending to yourself? What does self care looking like for you?
Rachael Burns 31:30
Self-care has been practically non existent. I have been the lowest priority thing in the house for quite a few years, which is understandable. But I haven’t been focused on like, doing something nice for myself, because it’s just not the highest priority. So friend, one of my friends asked me, like, what are you doing for self care? And I laughed, and I was like, take a shower once a week. Like, that’s really exciting. That’s like a, that’s like, my me time is like, five minutes in the shower every few days.
Victoria Volk 32:10
Oh, my God was like, I mean, it’s just me.
Rachael Burns 32:15
Like, I was so I mean, back then it really was that wild. Like, I genuinely could not get it. If you had to be around me, within, you know, a couple of feet of me at that point. I I’m sorry, to anyone who had to be around me. But you know, being a brand new mom. There’s no such thing as self care. You’re not showering, you’re not brushing your teeth and not brushing your hair. You’re not eating anything except for stuff that like fell on the floor. Like, your needs just go out the window. And they kind of stay out the window for a while. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t even know. Like the concept of self care is like really foreign to me. Right now. I understand how it will work for some people. It’s like, if I can get away for like, a quick weekend with like, my girlfriends that self care. And that’s, that’s like a really big luxury for me. Like if I can get a day or two to like, get out of town. That’s like a big, big deal. Go like drink some wine with my friends and just like sit there. That’s like, Oh, that’s such a recharge. That’s the only self care I can think of right now.
Victoria Volk 33:36
Other than what you’re doing, but you I mean
Rachael Burns 33:39
Other than taking fantastic care of my skin. I mean, that takes up a lot of time too. But
Victoria Volk 33:44
Well, that’s self care. Self Care. I’m just, you’re just kidding. So it’s just natural. No, it’s
Rachael Burns 33:50
It’s like I put this filter on the Zoom where it’s, you know, you can do that on Zoom. It’s not like a crazy filter. It’s not like it doesn’t look fake. It just kind of blurs everything. So now we’re getting into the grief of aging here. It’s not real. Yeah, that’s, that’s some grief in itself.
Victoria Volk 34:09
It is. Oh, yeah. I’m gonna have to check off these filters.
Rachael Burns 34:13
Well, and also you said, you know, you don’t look like someone that’s really stressed out. It’s called Botox, then your your face just can’t make sad faces anymore. That helps that will make you seem like you have it together because your face can’t physically even move like that. Like I can’t look sad. Not for another three months or so until it wears off. So you’ve got to keep it going.
Victoria Volk 34:37
Okay, well, this is the direction of the podcast I didn’t expect. This is real talk. It is real talk. thing. It’s like you’re in the you’re in the thick of it really all you’re in the thick of it. And I say the trenches of motherhood. Now I’m sure you have friends that have kids that are older. Oh yeah. And you have plenty of friends that have told you, you can’t get from an empty cup. Do you feel? Do you feel like you’re like your cup? Do you feel drained?
Rachael Burns 35:10
Yes. Okay, I do. But I feel like that is a temporary state. I know that things will not always be as difficult as they are now. Like, I know that and the kids keep getting older, the kids keep getting easier to deal with. And like, there will be a day when I don’t have to worry about Rob’s brain tumor coming back, because someday he won’t be here. And then like, then there’s other stuff to be worried about, obviously, at that point, but like, the way things are right now is not the way that things will always be. And anytime that things are really difficult, I always remember, they will not always be this difficult. This is like a this is just a point in time. And it’s always changing. So I don’t remember where I was going with that. But sort of that’s like, it’s Oh, my cup, my cup being full. I know that my cup will refill at some point, but it’s just not. It’s just not like, a top priority right now, I guess. Do you try to keep just trying to keep everyone alive and keep keep working? And that’s like, all my, it’s all I have energy for?
Victoria Volk 36:27
I had that thought to like, you just keep on going and keep on going and keep on going. But I look back in hindsight. And it’s like, gosh, if And granted, it was grief, like Grant grief was a huge factor for me and, and your situation is entirely different than anyone listening to this, their situation is going to be entirely different to about I think it’s finding what, like you said just a weekend, or even just two hours in an afternoon to your favorite little shop, or going to a coffee shop and just sitting and watching people which is you know, is that fun? Just watching people. Yeah, making up stories in your head about people like their lives, wondering, you know, that’s, yeah, I like doing stuff like that. But anyway, it’s finding stuff that bring you back to who you were right? Like, kind of, it’s almost like the children, you know, the children remind you of when you were a kid, and it’s doing the things that remind you of the essence of who you are. And I’m I lost sight of that for so many years. And I think if if what what are just share with me, if you don’t mind, what are a couple of things that remind you of the essence of who you are.
Rachael Burns 37:48
That’s interesting, you brought that up, because that’s something that I’ve realized, you don’t realize that you’re forgetting who you are until you remember something. And it can be something so simple as a song that you hear a shirt that you find in the back of your closet, there are these little reminders that I have that take me back to this time when life was simple. And I think I’m a happy person now. But back then I was happy in a very uncomplicated way. And all like hear some song that I didn’t even like that much. But just like a song that I remember from when I was 20 or something. And I’ll just be like, Why do I feel things right now? Like what is what is it about the song like, the Super Bowl was last weekend, and I watched the halftime show. And I remembered like, driving around in my 1996 on a prelude listening to 2001 from Dr. Dre. And I was just like, Oh my god. Life was so fun. All day, every day back then, like, my only job was to just have fun and like barely show up at school. And that was the only requirements of me like today. Yeah. And then in then I’m like, Oh my gosh, I remember I used to be this person who used to have these interests. And I used to do stuff and travel. And I enjoy I enjoyed listening to music and I enjoyed going to find bars and I enjoy doing all these things. And then I’m like, I haven’t done any of those things and so long that I forgot about those parts of myself. Like I forgot that I used to be really silly and I used to I mean, I still laugh a lot but I have forgotten who I am. And I don’t know if that’s more of a grief or if that’s more just having kids and not having any time to do anything for yourself but that that’s like a super weird thing that I’ve experienced.
Victoria Volk 39:45
I did do I experienced that too. And it just I have I use the Passion Planner. And did you know the Passion Planner? Makes stickers I love stickers. And I collected stickers as a kid, like I had tons and tons of stickers, like brings out the kid in me. Every Sunday, I get out my highlighters and my stickers and I, you know, I plan my week for fun with stickers like, yeah, how ridiculous. But I think it’s this little thing that I found that connects me to myself. And I just encourage you, and anyone listening, that when you’re in the thick of stuff, grief, transition, parenthood, whatever it is, to do something that reminds you of the essence of who you are. So you don’t lose touch of that. Because when it feels like a part of you is died. There’s grief in that too.
Rachael Burns 40:39
Yeah. And that’s a very, very real thing is the death of who you once were. Because once once Rob was diagnosed, obviously, there’s the grief associated with the very obvious part of that. But what really disturbed me the most in that time period was, I will never go back to who I was, before I knew that this was coming. I will never ever be that person anymore. I will always have some form of this grief. And even when I would see pictures of myself from like, a few years before, but I didn’t know what was coming. And I was like, I’m like smiling like no idea what’s going on. It’s weird to think that that person is dead, that person will never exist again. That’s a really weird realization. That’s like a really weird part of grief that I wasn’t prepared for I guess.
Victoria Volk 41:45
Yeah. And I talked to someone else, just before we hopped on and one of the themes of our conversation was that she allowed herself to change. And I think we kind of bucked that, or we try to resist that through grief, like grief changing us, but it’s going to whether we like it or not, but it’s allowing that unfolding of the new Rachael 2.0. But when I speak about connecting to the essence of who you are, it’s not even there’s parts of you that regardless of what happens, never change, right? Like, I still love stickers like that is that brings out the kid in me that brings out the essence of who I am. And so that’s really what I’m talking about here is I am not the same person that I was before. Whatever happened to me, you’re not going to be in anyone listening. That’s the case as well. But it’s really, I think, before the world got a hold of you right before brief got a hold of you. What were the things that brought you to life like sparked joy, if we got to.
Rachael Burns 42:52
Marie Kondo
Victoria Volk 42:53
Yes. Marie Kondo our lives, you know, but it really it’s, it’s coming back to the simple things like that, like collecting stickers and, or like playing with playdough with your kids, and making different creations or, you know, and that’s, I think what the gift of those ages are and parenthood is that it’s like you have permission to play. Because if, let’s say you’re just, it was just you and you’re playing with playdough. And someone calls you Hey, what are you doing? I’m playing with playdough. What? You know, you kind of get some side eyes, like, you know, what, when you have little ones it’s, it’s a permission slip to just play? Yeah, yeah. It’s, yeah, I think you can rediscover, there’s an opportunity there for you to rediscover who you were before all of this and who the essence of who you are. Just in everyday parenting with your kids. Yeah. Putting on the music putting on Dr. Dre. Maybe some clean edited. Yeah,
Rachael Burns 43:57
I know, the kids are old enough to where they repeat cuss words. Now, once
Victoria Volk 44:03
You bring some of your play into their world. Yeah, they get to know you that way, too. You know, yeah, that’s good advice. And also to maybe bring that to your relationship, you know, the things that brought you together and you know, before Yeah, then it really it is so important to make your unit a priority. And you but I think if if you have to choose, it’s a lot easier for you to choose time with your spouse than you alone. But that is self care, too. Right. If you’re doing something you enjoy, and you’re sharing it with him, that’s self care, too. Yeah, yeah. When I did for this to turn into like a coaching session. It just so many reminders for me of of where I once was,
Rachael Burns 44:54
yeah. Yeah. It’s funny. We’ve been one thing we’ve been doing is because he works, or his office is close to the house, I work from home, and we’ll like, Go, he’ll be like, Oh, I’m gonna come home for lunch. And we’ll go get lunch. And it turns into just like having cocktails and not working and taking the rest of the day off. But it’s like this really nice thing that we’ll do every once in a while, where we’ll just kind of forget about all of all of our responsibilities. And it’s just time that we haven’t really spent together in a long time where we’re just like, hanging out not dealing with real life stuff.
Victoria Volk 45:43
Play hooky from life. Yeah. playing hooky is fun. So what has your grief taught you?
Rachael Burns 45:50
It has taught me all sorts of things, it’s taught me, I much stronger than I ever thought, which is like, I feel like that’s kind of cliche, but I can endure a lot. And still keep doing what I need to do. Like that has become very clear out of this. situation, um, like, I can handle, I can handle a lot. And if I can handle whatever already been through, there’s really not a lot out there that scares me. Which is like a kind of weird, empowering feeling to have, even like thinking back to when I was in my late 20s. Before I had kids and everything. And like, if I had to go get blood drawn, I would seriously cry. Like they would, they’d be like, Oh, my God, this girl is such a loony. And like I was I was just like, so dramatic, like, Oh, my God, I can’t like, I don’t know, I just, I felt like I had all these kind of fears that were really silly, and really kind of irrational. And then now, after having the kids after having the complications, I remember thinking, There’s not one medical procedure that I can think of, that scares me after what I’ve gone through with the poking and the prodding and the IVs. And the tests, and the, there was a lot of like, really, extraordinarily uncomfortable or painful moments through all of that. And I’m like, There’s nothing that I can think of that would really scare me at this point. And the same goes for things that can happen in life, like losing a job, or losing a family member, or, you know, whatever things that used to scare me, I’ve already proven that I can handle it. So there’s like not a lot to really be scared of anymore. Other than being scared of something happening with my kids, like, there’s so many fears that I didn’t have that I have now, like, oh my god, if they got hurt, I would just like lose my mind. Aside from that, I feel pretty fearless. I can accomplish more than I ever thought was possible. That’s been empowering. And and when I went out on my own and started my own business that that had a lot to do with it. I’m like, Well, clearly I can handle it, because I just survived all of this. So running a business is not. That’s not a big deal at all. I mean, it is a big deal. But it’s not something that scares me. So that’s something that I’ve learned about myself in the process.
Victoria Volk 48:40
I’m finding it a curious aspect of grief that I’m just kind of came to light for me today. And I was talking to someone before I spoke with you, and she’s an entrepreneur, and we’re just kind of thinking about how, as entrepreneurs, you even if you never felt like a leader brings out your leadership skills, right, you have to be able to lead yourself you self self determined you have to have it brings out all it’s brought out aspects of me that I never like, I’m sure people looking like when people see me now. And like think of me when I was young, like, you know, fifth, sixth, fourth grade, whatever, like, oh, never thought you would do that. Right? You know, like I was one of those kids like, Yeah, and so I’ve proven to myself, right? It’s like this, you have to prove it to yourself. And so I think there’s this element of self leadership that comes out of being an entrepreneur and I think that really serves us as Grievers to be able to lead ourselves through the process of grieving in a way that well hopefully is positive and healthy, but it can go the opposite where you just pour yourself even more into work and become a workaholic, and that’s not healthy. I’m talking in a healthy way but I just want Want to highlight though that that’s probably really serving you in that way and will continue to serve you as you navigate this, the unknowns of all of this?
Rachael Burns 50:09
Yeah, one thing that it’s taught me is I really trust myself more than I ever have. I really trust my judgment. And I trust my decision making. And I’m very confident in the decisions that I make now, which has been, I wasn’t expecting that. But it does make me feel like I know what I’m doing. I’m not, you know, this isn’t my first rodeo. So that’s been, it’s been very empowering in that way.
Victoria Volk 50:45
What has been the biggest support for you? Like, especially then, like, when you first found out all of this stuff was happening? Like, what was the most helpful thing that? Where did you find the most support?
Rachael Burns 50:59
Yeah, I, there were two phases in that. And the first phase was maybe the first year after he was diagnosed. And I was not wanting to see people, I was not wanting to be around people, I was not wanting to talk to people about what was going on, I was just, I just wanted to like crawl in a cave and just hide until it was over. And at that point, because I wasn’t really ready to talk about it too much with people. It was more me getting whatever information I could to help process that or to help understand my feelings with that. And and one thing that was so helpful was I found a podcast, it was started as being about grief, it was put on by someone who is around my age, and her husband died of the same type of brain cancer that my husband has. And that sounds like a really depressing podcast. But in reality, when she talked about grief, I could totally identify with things that she was saying. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I’ve been feeling that. But I couldn’t even articulate that. But now that she said this, I’m like, Oh, my gosh, that’s exactly what I’m going through, which was so helpful. But also, it wasn’t just about grief, it was about overcoming difficult things, which we all do. I mean, everyone has to do difficult things, and we all can relate to that. But the fact that she had gone through this very similar situation, and she had turned it into something that helped others in a very meaningful way. I mean, she, she made a meaningful difference in my life, just from listening to a podcast. This is someone I don’t know, it’s called terrible. Thanks for asking, by the way, I think I we talked about that before. Yep, I’ll put it in the show notes, too. That was such a huge support for me, which is kind of funny, because it’s just like a podcast. But that that was really important. And then once I got through that initial phase, where I was like, Alright, I’m ready to emerge from my cave, and like, talk to people about what’s going on, then, you know, having the support of my friends and family was, and having their support was extremely meaningful during that first phase, but I just was I like, couldn’t, I couldn’t bear to like, be around people. But once I kind of reemerged, I have this new sense of gratitude for the support of my friends and family, just because you don’t know how truly committed they are to you until you go through something really bad. And they show up for you in ways that like you would have never expected and it makes you really appreciative of the support that you didn’t even realize. I mean, I knew that I had the support, but I didn’t know that I had
Rachael Burns 53.58
That, that was that was like a life savings thing. The stuff that my family did for me like when I when Rob was first diagnosed, the first call
Rachael Burns 54:22
That I made, one of the first calls was to my brother and I told him what happened. And I just asked if he could take that if he could be in charge of letting people note because I didn’t want to like keep repeating that story. And I didn’t want to be the one that was responsible for like delivering this horrible news to people. I didn’t want to be responsible for that for like changing their life with this. Like because I knew how much it hurt to be on the receiving end of that news that I didn’t want to give it to anyone else. And like my brother took that off of my plate for me and like Did this really horrible task of being in charge of like delivering horrible news to everyone, but he did that for me and, and my mom, like, would just magically drop food off at my house. And she just like, kind of show up and like, leave food and just kind of run away and give me space and like, your people show up for you. It’s like, they know what to do. In times of need, people know what, what to do. So that was pretty amazing. It’s beautiful. I just got goosebumps. I had a feeling you’d make me cry. I debated whether to put on mascara. But luckily, the filter will blurred out. So back to the filter.
Victoria Volk 55:44
It’s so easy to think about how people don’t show up. But I think it’s reminding ourselves of how people do is far more empowering and self loving, really.
Rachael Burns 55:58
And some of the people who don’t show up. Sometimes it’s just because they can’t they don’t have they don’t have the tools or it’s not, I think it’s easy to get your feelings hurt when you don’t get the type of support you’re expecting from someone or whatever. But like, one thing that I realized is people just don’t know what to do. People don’t know what to do in that situation. There’s no manual on like, how to help your friend whose husband was just diagnosed with brain cancer like, no, no one expects you to be an expert in that. But some people can feel like, I don’t know what to do. I don’t I don’t know if I should talk about it. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. I don’t want to do this like, and then they just kind of freak out and just kind of disappear. I think that’s a really common reaction people have and like, I don’t blame anyone for having that reaction. I think it helps to have some realistic expectations of people knowing that they’re not going to know what to do. I don’t I mean, I don’t know what to do. I don’t expect anyone else to know what to do in that type of situation. So, but it does make you extra appreciative of the people who do like, despite the difficulty of the situation, they still show up.
Victoria Volk 57:08
That’s why I love to ask that question like, What are some of the ways that people supported you? Because I think through this podcast, people can learn different ideas, even if they want to be the one to support someone who’s going through a difficult time. You can learn through podcasts to easily support for others. What is one tip that you would share with somebody who’s in the thick of it, maybe like you or maybe not as far as long as you because we’re all at different points, right?
Rachael Burns 57:39
I don’t know how to answer that. I don’t know, I just feel like everyone’s situation is so different. And I am not an expert. I’m barely an expert in my own life. Like I don’t know how to give advice to someone else who’s like going through something a little bit different. But I think just knowing that no matter what you’re going through, it will not always be that hard. Like nothing stays that hard. I can’t I mean, it’s I guess certain things could get worse, but you will survive difficult things. And you will adapt, and you will learn to accept certain things, and you will learn to move forward and it like when you’re in the thick of it. It’s so hard to see, like what it could look like on the other side, but it will get better. It might have to get worse. It may very well could get worse before it gets better, but it will get better. And like, I don’t know, knowing that made me feel like less despair, I guess. Because I was like, Yeah, this is horrible. But this will not always be this way. That’s the only thing I can really like offer in terms of advice.
Victoria Volk 58:12
Well, let’s shift gears to the work that you do then, yes. And talk about give a piece of advice or suggestion that you would give to somebody putting your financial advisor hat on planner with that hat on what would you say.
Rachael Burns 59:14
So if someone is going through a really difficult situation, and there’s some financial decisions that need to be made, or some sort of actions that need to be taken, and that’s something that’s really causing you a lot of stress. I think it helps to understand that you are not expected to be an expert in your finances. There are other things that are more important at that time. And yeah, there are some decisions that have to be made and some things you can’t put off but no one’s expecting you to be superwoman. Like you can get help on anything that you need. And if that’s financial stuff, there is someone who can break that down and tell you Okay, these are the things that you actually we need to worry about the rest of it, don’t worry about it, you’ve got other stuff to deal with. There’s just there’s a lot of support out there. No matter what your issue is, and particularly with the financial stuff, there are so many advisors or other experts out there that specialize in very specific situations. Where, if you are going through divorce, there is a whole industry out there of people who are able to support people going through divorce, or if you have lost your spouse, there are people who specialize in that type of situation. So there’s really specialized support available, whatever you need help with, and I really encourage people to like, be open to help. And it might take a little bit of digging to find the right person to help you. But there’s just so much support available for you. So don’t feel like you have to do everything alone. Don’t feel like oh, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, you don’t have to do it alone, you can get help. And someone can help make your life a little bit easier. And you should you should take the opportunity to make your life a little bit easier when you can because life is hard. And you don’t need to take on more than you absolutely need to.
Victoria Volk 1:01:19
What do you think is? I mean, I have an idea. But what do you think is one thing that maybe stops people from seeking help? Can then I’ll share my thought on that around finances?
Rachael Burns 1:01:32
Well, with finances specifically, I think people get scared to face face the facts. I think finances are just a very uncomfortable subject for a lot of people. And that’s for a lot of reasons. You know, a lot of people don’t have the knowledge and they feel bad about their lack of financial knowledge. Or they feel bad about decisions that they’ve made in the past with their finances, or they have all this like guilt and shame wrapped around it. And I think with finances, that’s something that you feel like, oh, I can deal with this later and that you put on the backburner, even though it’s really not something that you should put on the backburner because you need to address it as early as you can. But I think just not wanting to deal with it is like the number one block that keeps people from getting it in order.
Victoria Volk 1:02:30
So once your yes shame, the shame, yeah, you feel around their money. Yeah.
Rachael Burns 1:02:37
Yeah, it’s totally understandable. And it’s very, very common, but like, money is just a thing. I mean, it’s, it’s a more complicated thing than that you need it to get a lot of things. But no one is born bad with money. No one is born good with money. If you make a mistake, that doesn’t need to define the rest of your life, you’re not Oh, the person that screwed up and did this, like, you learn as you go along. And it may be it takes you a while to learn it. But it’s not. It’s doable. It’s something that you kind of have to try to remove the emotions from. And just, you know, what, what you’ve done in the past, that stays in the past, you just kind of have to be willing to, to learn, be open to learning and be open to making some changes when necessary. And if that’s how you get over the shame, part of it.
Victoria Volk 1:03:36
Isn’t the root word of currency current. Because I think of if you think of money as like, currency, right? It’s flows, right? Money flows. It’s, it’s an energetic exchange. And that’s really how I’ve had to reshape my thoughts around money is that it’s an energetic exchange. And just like we have shame in our money, we have shame in our grief and how we handle our grief or how we’re not handling our grief. stop us from seeking help, too. Absolutely. There’s a lot of similarities there. But if someone wants to, if I’m in a situation where I had a death of a spouse, or I’m getting divorced, or recently divorced, where can I? Where’s the Where do you recommend I look for resources.
Rachael Burns 1:04:29
I don’t think there’s one place to go get all information on on that type of thing I think it’s going to take it’s going to depend on what’s your preferred way of receiving that information. If you’re someone who likes if you’re someone like me, who likes to listen to podcasts, any information that I absorb, needs to come in the form of a podcast or else I’m not open to it. So if you’re someone like that, there are so many amazing financial podcasts out there that have different focuses, if you’re interested in budgeting, if you’re interested in planning for retirement, if you’re interested in getting out of debt, that’s like my favorite way. But that’s, that’s me. That’s not That’s not everyone’s cup of tea. If you like reading, there’s some, there’s some great websites, there’s, I mean, advisors like me often put out content, they put out blogs, they put out all sorts of stuff. That’s, I think, a good source of information. I think if you go on social media, there’s a lot of helpful information, but there’s a lot of garbage. And there’s a lot of people who claim to be financial experts, but they’re just like social media personalities, you have to be careful where the information is coming from, but there’s no one place to get the information, it really depends on you just have to kind of poke around in your preferred type of media, I suppose.
Victoria Volk 1:05:56
So if I’m listening, and I really resonate with you, and I like your story, and I want to connect with you, where can I find you.
Rachael Burns 1:06:03
So you can visit my website, it’s trueworthfp.com. And I have my blog on there, I have my story on there. And then I also have a link to schedule a free strategy session, which I really encourage people to take me up on. Because even if it’s not a good fit, you will absolutely walk away with some actionable ideas that you can put into place right now. And even if I mean, if it’s not a good fit, I can give people referrals, I can point them in the right direction. I think that’s a good place to start. And then I’m also active on social media. I’m not one of the people who pretends to have the expertise, I actually have some credentials. But I’m on. I’m on Instagram. It’s true worth FP. I’m on LinkedIn, it’s under my name, Rachel V. Burns. Those are some good places to connect with me and chat with me there. And you can read the stuff that I’m pretty active about posting stuff on there. So that’s, that’s where you can find me. And I’ll put all the links in the show notes, too.
Victoria Volk 1:07:10
But is there anything else that you would like to share?
Rachael Burns 1:07:14
I don’t think so. I have thought about a lot of things in the past hour and 20 minutes that I haven’t thought about in a while. And I don’t think there’s any stones that were left on turned. You know what the one thing I will say is going through really difficult times is part of being human. It is like what when I said it in the beginning of the of the episode about feeling like I’m a one percenter like, of course, of course, it’s going to happen to me everything. Like you’re not being singled out by the universe like, this is this stuff happens to everyone, no one is safe from having bad things happen to them. This is just this is just part of the deal of being human. And I think when you look at it that way, you won’t get as angry when you’re going through something because you know, it’s not just you this is just something that happens to people for no good reason. And it also makes you feel kind of united with other people who are going through difficult things. It made me feel like this is something that we all have in common is going through hard times. Like I just I don’t know why, but it made me feel so much more connected with other people in general, just knowing that we all have something that we’re dealing with, and that makes me feel better for some weird reason.
Victoria Volk 1:08:45
Me too, honestly, like when I think about my podcast, it’s grief is the one thing that unites us all it doesn’t discriminate, it doesn’t care. We are who you are where you’re from your background, your age, doesn’t care. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here. I will put all of your information in the show notes if anyone wants a financial advisor, planner, and thank you so much for being here.
Rachael Burns 1:09:13
Thank you, Victoria. I really appreciate it.
Victoria Volk 1:09:15
And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Parenting, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss, Widowhood |
Elizabeth Catignani | My Shattered Heart: Experiencing Stillbirth & Being a Widow at 27
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
As a mother, carrying and growing another human in the womb for nine months, it is expected that a healthy child will be born. However, for Elizabeth, that is not what happened. Her world was shattered when she realized that she wouldn’t be a new mom overflowing with joy. Rather, she would become a mother with grieving empty arms.
After her firstborn died, Elizabeth and her husband were fortunate to have a healthy daughter. Yet again, her joy was cut short when their daughter was only about 5 months old when her husband was deployed in the Special Forces in the Army.
Her husband owed the military one last deployment and within six weeks of that deployment to Afghanistan, Elizabeth received a call that no military spouse ever wants to receive. Her husband was in Germany with injuries sustained while on deployment. She flew to Germany to be with him, which would turn out to be for his final breaths.
All of that loss within an 18-month period would be the catalyst for her to look for and ultimately create a space for herself and other grieving young widows.
Through a lot of ongoing healing and inner work, Elizabeth did find love again and has a family with so much love to give to. But, it wasn’t a quick, bounce-right-back process either, and being a young widow, who was also still grieving a son, would pose its own challenges, too.
There’s truly no way to skirt around grief. You have to feel it.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief, free resources are available HERE.
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Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of Theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30-plus year graver and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist. I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talk about the weather? Let’s get started.
Victoria Volk 0:56
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices today is another fantastic conversation with my guest, Elizabeth Catan, Yanni, and she is a certified creative grief coach, health coach and author of creative grieving a hip chicks path from lost hope. After several unexpected losses at the age of 27. She has passionately dedicated her life to helping others experience healing, joy and purpose after loss. She established her creative wellness, a blog and online platform as a supportive space for women to become empowered on their journey and healing and wellness from grief to hope. She believes in the transformative power of the human journey. In her sacred stories. They’re sharing her own story, she hopes to light the way for others seeking a healthy, heart centered and fulfilling life. Thank you for being here. And I’m on that train with you. Thank you so much for having me today. It’s great to be here. Absolutely. First of all, people often find themselves doing work that they didn’t project themselves doing, like ever, like you never, you can plan your life, five years, 10 years ahead, or you have goals in mind. But life always throws wrenches and surprises and sometimes even gives you things and gifts and experiences that are beyond your expectation or wildest dreams. But sometimes we have experiences that really shape and change us and bring us to a new path. And that’s where you have found yourself. And so let’s start with what your goals in life were before these losses that you bring you to grieving voices. What was your life like before
Elizabeth Catignani 2:40
I had been a teacher prior to my losses. And I was actually, in the process of getting my Master’s in Counseling I had known I’d always wanted to work particularly with women just around mental health issues. And so it’s interesting how I was already a little bit torn on this path of wanting to help others and work with women through life transitions and healing. And so I find it interesting that it’s happened shortly, I was just finishing up my first year of my masters with this program. And all of a sudden, shortly after that is when my losses happen and which completely turned my life upside down. Prior to that, I’d had a pretty typical, go through school, meet my husband get married. And so up until I was about 25. I hadn’t really understood or known real trauma in my life.
Victoria Volk 3:45
What changed for?
Elizabeth Catignani 3:46
When I was having my firstborn, I had gone through a very normal, healthy nine-month pregnancy. And I was 2526. And on my son’s due date, after about a 14-hour labor. He died from a court accident and that was absolutely life-shattering. And it was just the biggest shock upheaval in my life. And my husband and I really had to find a way together to grieve that loss. And we were working through that process a little bit. I had started going to support groups and counseling. And he had his own way of breathing, which he was in the military. He had a little different take on feelings and talking about them a lot. And so I found my own outlets to cope with my grief. And thankfully we were fortunate to have a healthy daughter after we lost her son. However, when she was only about five months old, he was deployed. He was in the Special Forces in the army and he owed the military one last deployment andonly about six weeks in, he was serving in Afghanistan, I got a call that he had been injured. And shortly after that I was flown over to Germany. It was something he couldn’t recover from. He had been killed on a mission. And I was there with him for his last moments, but I had to leave our baby girl back in the States with my family. And I couldn’t believe yet again. I was just like, What are the odds? What is wrong with me? Why me within an 18 month period, losing both a son and then my husband who had been my rock, through grieving our son, we had that shared grief, and then to lose that person who could understand that loss better than anyone. I was like how to like read both of these together, it was impossible. That was about I was 27. So that’s almost about 13 years ago now. And it’s so sensitive, I’ve just been on this crazy, difficult, beautiful, intense, amazing journey that only grief can show you really. And shortly after his death, I moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I decided that I wanted to really work with other women who were grieving, and meet other women who are grieving because I felt so alone, different than everyone else around me. And I didn’t know how to move forward, I did, the first thing I could was to think I need to connect with other people who can understand I sought out some support groups had a hard time finding one that I really connected with. So I actually started my own on meetup.com, when I think it was starting to become popular around then. And I was called Soul widows, particularly for young widows, because a lot of groups out there were not really geared towards younger people. So I began meeting amazing women, I just was like, wow, there are other young women out there like me that have actually lost their spouse or their partner. And I formed new friendships and relationships that way. And it was really a stepping stone to starting to live again a little bit and pick myself up off the ground, just trying to get through that first year, while also trying to raise our daughter on my own. Thankfully, I had family to help. But it was just very daunting, very overwhelming. And it’s been teaching me a lot throughout my life. Those experiences.
Victoria Volk 7:36
Have you fell in love again?
Elizabeth Catignani 7:38
I have incredible love. Yes, I’ve been happily married for about six and a half years now we’re married, we have a beautiful five year old daughter as well, my oldest is now 13. I never would have imagined over a decade ago having the life I do now having been able to find love and create the family that I always dreamed about. So at one point, it seemed literally like it would never be possible. Or I could never risk getting hurt again, or opening my heart again. So I’m definitely in a place that I am extremely grateful for. But it was a lot of hard work to get here. It was a lot of facing the pain and the heartache and the realities and just digging deep because there’s truly no way to
Elizabeth Catignani 8:27
Skirt around grief, you have to feel it, you have to live it. And it’s something that I know like with our society, particularly, it’s not a comfortable thing. And it’s not easy for people to know what to say or how to support your how to talk about it with other people. And so I think it’s so important in those early years to really find those that you can trust, find a community find someone that you can really just pour your heart out to. And knowing that they’ll trust it, even treat it with honor, respect, and because life is certainly not all fun and joy. And as much as we love that. So I think it’s good to have these conversations, because I feel like so many people deserve them and deserve to know that they’re not alone. And that there is support and that there are other people that have suffered and found their way out. We need those stories, because otherwise, it feels very hopeless. So I’ve tried to through the work that I’ve done share like this is this was my experience. This was my hardship. And there is another side that you keep going and at one point shortly after I started my support group I had co founded it was called the respite. It was a Center for Grief and hope, a local nonprofit with a couple of other women. And that was also just such a profound experience for me. And we ran that for about four years. And we helped tons of women that came through our doors. We provided counseling services and support groups and it was just such an uplifting experience to feel like I could do
Elizabeth Catignani 10:00
Take my story and turn it into something beautiful by giving to others like being of service was such a huge piece to just finding purpose again, and feeling value and feeling like worthy just even if it was helping one or two people, here and there, it just filled up my heart and I felt, okay, I can still create some beauty and some life and reconnect with myself. Because it takes a while to recover parts of yourself after a loss, you might feel like you’ve lost yourself completely sometimes. And so being able to just reach out and connect with other people and help helped me with my kind of get some identity back as well.
Victoria Volk 10:43
What do you think you discovered about yourself? Through those years of healing that you didn’t maybe believe about yourself before.
Elizabeth Catignani 10:54
I think I certainly realize that how capable I was of just allowing vulnerability, and letting that be my strength. And I would always kind of before my losses really looked to others to help me through certain things. And I was the youngest child in my family. So I always felt had other people to let that die in the way and show me the way. And as I went through this process and learned more about myself, I realized I have a lot more strength and wisdom than I think I gave myself credit for just listening to my heart and trusting that I would get the support I need. If I reached out for it, I became a little more assertive a little more less afraid in certain ways, realizing how short life is and how precious every moment that we have it goes so quickly, it just flies by so fast. And I think I wouldn’t have had the guts before to go after certain things. I don’t think I would have had the guts to go after a nonprofit or to meet to start a group for women. I hadn’t really seen myself in a leadership role before. And so suddenly, I just had this fire in me of I think it was just all the built up feelings and emotions. What’s the grief, you have all of it, it’s no particular order, you have the anger and the sadness. And it’s just such a roller coaster. And I think I just had so much bottled up, I just needed to do something creative with it. And so I really just follow that creative energy. And I was like I need to build, I need to do something with this. Otherwise, I’m just gonna implode, being able to channel that and just something that could hopefully empower other people on their path. That just became such a light for me. And it just filled me with a lot of hope. And it brought me a lot of peace and joy, especially through those earlier years. And it brings me a lot of deep peace today to still be able to help in any way I can.
Victoria Volk 12:55
What do you think is different from you or in other Grievers that you’ve met along the way? Because I think to myself, like how can there be some people, some Grievers who experience really incredible, deeply painful losses, and they end up in this really dark hole for decades. And then you have this other person who seems to from the outside, like bounce back and not bounce back? Because I hate that and he referring it to that way. But like you said, there’s like a shift. There’s like the light switch goes on in your brain, and you just choose differently for yourself. And so what do you think was it for you, that shifted in your mindset? Because really, it is a mindset to go from probably not being able to get out of bed most days to getting out of bed?
Elizabeth Catignani 13:54
Yeah, I did. I will say I did spend at least the first six weeks after my husband died in that it was painful to wake up. I just wanted to be sleeping all the time to escape the feelings. And it was a very gradual process. So it’s not like I just bounced up in a few months. It was like, Oh, I’m gonna go do all this stuff. And I’ve got all this energy. It was absolutely nothing like that. It started out slow. I remember I found a meeting group online for young widows. It was like a safe within my own little space. And I was able to still connect with others online and see what their experiences were their feelings. And that was my way of inching back into the world a little bit. And I took my daughter I wouldn’t be like seven months old. I would take her out on a walk at least a few times a week. That was my getting out into the world and I would be relieved if I didn’t run into a single person. As I went on these walks, and I just wanted to be in nature. I wanted to be around just the trees and the animals. Doesn’t feel like I could just exist and not have to worry about any sort of judgment, or what anyone else might think of me, I didn’t want to even see other families being happy, I felt like I really needed to protect myself. And so it was a very gradual process. I’ve slowly started after that doing one on one therapy. And I probably went through another six months of that before I felt any sort of energy toward even creating something myself with the support group. But I really think it’s such an individual process. And I think that for me, at least, the personal the one on one therapy, I think, was really what helped me the most initially, to not just want to close off from the world and shut myself away, and retreat into the darkness, because I did have someone challenging me to stay living to stay in the life helping me feel and remind me that I have purpose, and that I’m still a whole person, despite my losses. And I needed to have that being a constant reminder. Because if you don’t have someone rooting for you, or allowing you to process, I think it’s a lot harder to get out of that state of just complete defeat. And just feeling like allowing the last almost does fully encompass you and to not see the other side to get into that darkness. I think finding that support early. I remember my sister found me and my therapist because I wasn’t looking, I was in bed. And she found her for me, she said, I think you should go try to see this woman and see what happens. And I was like, Okay, you can drive me because I was so overwhelmed. I couldn’t even drive myself, like says at the beginning. So I literally had my sister take me to my counseling appointments to start with. So having that push was very helpful, necessary early on. And eventually, that evolved into the support groups and meeting other people that I’ve met women in the support groups I ran, there were some widows that would come in, and they would say my husband died five years ago. And I’m just now ready to talk about it. I’m just now ready to share my story. And they hadn’t felt that they had a safe space to do that before that. So it’s really a such an individual process. I know they all say the first year is foggy. And then second year is this, but it’s very personal. It depends on a lot of circumstances and what kind of support you have around you. And I was so grateful that the women had showed up that had waited a long time because they found a lot of healing. After just having all this stuff bottled up for so long. There’s no right or wrong way to grieve. There’s no handbook, that can say this is where you should be on this date, or this is how you should feel at this point. And I think it’s just so important to give ourselves grace, for that, at some point, reach out for help, especially if you do feel like you’re getting into too much into the darkness. There are amazing resources out there.
Victoria Volk 18:04
To piggyback on what you said, because I took me over 30 years. So that’s my personal experience, but anybody that I’ve ever worked with, man, I wish I would have done this sooner. Because if you really think about it’s never too late, and it’s never too soon to like work through your grief. And now although I completely 100% agree there is no timeline, and time just passes. It’s what you do in that time. What I think about is, the opportunities, the life that you miss, when you spend your days in fear of what going to that place will be like, and I think that’s what keeps people stuck is the fear of what that’s going to feel like, what’s gonna happen after that. Okay, I work through all this stuff. And then what do I think that’s really what keeps people stuck in their grief?
Elizabeth Catignani 18:42
I totally agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. And I still certainly struggle with anxiety to this day, I always have fears that something will happen to my loved ones to my children, it’s very easy to go to those places in my mind. And so it’s really been a lot of personal work with a lot of almost when I find myself going, they’re going to tools that I’ve learned whether it’s an affirmation or breathing, or maybe I have to make a phone call, I still have a life coach to this day that I absolutely adore. And I speak to her once a week. And just getting back to a place that feels safe and grounded. My affirmation for this year was I am safe, and especially with this pandemic we’ve had going on that, of course adds another layer to it and there’s been so much loss over the past few years there are so much suffering right now. And it’s easy to get caught up in that energy and to feel overwhelmed. And on top of that, so many of us have been isolated. I’ve been basically a stay at home mom, the last couple years during this whole thing with my kids and not seeing many people, there was a time, I wasn’t seeing much family. And that can really just heighten that anxiety and that fear. And so being a space around me that I feel comfortable in having books that I can turn to, that are soothing, having podcasts that I can listen to, to support me getting out and taking a long walk, or getting some form of movement and moving the body. There’s just so many incredible ways we can channel that fear and channel that anxiety so that it doesn’t overwhelm and take over. So that’s something that I have certainly spent years working through after my losses, and it still pops up very frequently. And I’m always looking at new ways to manage it. And there’s nothing wrong with that you all have to find stay creative with our resources, and maybe something will work for a little while. And then you’ll find Okay, doesn’t work for me anymore. So I need to try something else. And so just being open to trying different ways, because yeah, especially after having the worst happen, it’s very easy to just assume like, that’s always going to be the situation to go there. So it’s a lot of self care, a lot of checking in pretty much daily with yourself and saying, What do I need right now? What can I do right now for myself?
Victoria Volk 21:34
I think with grief, it’s really about getting back to the basics. Just get that in people. When I mentioned meditation, sometimes it’s some guy. There’s another one that says meditation.
Victoria Volk 21:46
But just the basic back when, before the internet before, all the stuff that we have in our lives, people would garden, and they would garden for hours, or they would be out in the fields or they would be laboring, and then they would come they worked hard. And then they rested. And we just have lost the basics of balance in our lives. And I’ve really had to learn that myself. But yeah, just what does balance look like for me today? Looking at your calendar and looking at those special days coming up? Or the anniversaries? And how can I balance what I know is coming emotionally? How can I balance that with self care,
Elizabeth Catignani 21:52
I think doesn’t have to be a big complicated situation. I think especially people that are grieving, I feel like we put so much pressure on ourselves to do things perfectly and like to honor an anniversary perfectly, or it can be very simple. It can be so simple. Like every year for me anyway, when you mentioned anniversaries, I was thinking about how every year is so very different in the way that I experience it and the feelings that come up. And there are some years where I don’t feel like I need to make a big announcement about it. I don’t need to go on social media and say, this big monologue about my memories or my feelings. And there’s some times when I just really want to, to honor it personally and not feel like I have to go blasting it out there. And I feel like some of the women I’ve met, they feel like they have to honor them a certain way. Or some people love that some people want to do the balloon release, or they go to the memorial site, or they write poetry and their honor, it’s whatever serves you, it’s whatever you need to help you through that day. And you can honor your loved one in a way that feels right for you. And I used to feel so much pressure and the anticipation would just overwhelm me. And I realized, why am I doing this, I don’t need to prove anything to anyone, I don’t need to put on the show for anybody. And so this past year, some of the anniversaries I passed through, they were just very private for me. And that just felt energetically the best for me, I would go on a walk or I’d just talk to them and say a few words and feel their energy. And that was what felt right at that time. So I do think that we can easily overcomplicate grief and what we think we need to do, or oh, this meditation is supposed to that so I have to go do that meditation or it just doesn’t feel right or you’re feeling like you’re forcing it, then it’s probably not what you need, then maybe you just need a relaxing bath or you need a nap. Because you’re exhausted grieving is exhausting. So I think we all need to give ourselves a little grace with, like you said, just going back to some basics. You have a green thumb spending some time in your yard and it doesn’t have to be this fancy thing
Victoria Volk 24:47
For some people gardening like flowers, or having a flower garden nurturing something to full bloom. That can be very meditative. It can be a meditative experience for someone to So meditation is now don’t just sit up. It doesn’t have to be so structured. Like, there’s so many different ways to do it. And there’s no right or wrong way either. And yeah, if you have trouble turning off the monkey brain, it’s a practice. It’s not going to happen the first time and then you think you’re doing it wrong. And then you’re judging yourself Self shaming yourself, and then you don’t do it. Again. It’s a practice, just like everything is a practice, self care is a practice committing to it as a practice.
Elizabeth Catignani 25:27
Yes, I love what you’re saying, though, one of my favorite sayings. It’s a grief course that I took, one of the instructors said, it’s a practice, not a perfect. And always repeat that to myself, when I feel like I’m not doing something correctly, or I’m not treating this, I’m just like, okay, just chill. It’s a practice, not, nothing’s perfect.
Victoria Volk 25:48
I think, here’s a thought that came to me it was listening to you is that it sounds like to me that you had some really clear boundaries for yourself. And what came to my mind as well as being a young widow, I would imagine that pressure that you felt, whether externally or internally, that you felt being a young widow, I can imagine that you would have to feel like you have to have this extravagant show being young, it was a young loss and honoring that, and he’s was the father of your child. And if somehow, like just that self judgment that we feel whether it’s true or not, you still might feel that and I just wanted to highlight the fact that you had very clear boundaries. And so what would you suggest to those who may be really struggling with that? And how to maybe implement those boundaries with others? Because that can be really tricky.
Elizabeth Catignani 26:43
Yeah. In the beginning, it definitely took me a while to learn how to establish those boundaries, because especially with being that he had been in the military, and the military is just one big community. And there was an online Facebook page set up in his honor. And just a lot of people wanted to grieve together, honor him together. And while that was beautiful, it could also be very overwhelming for me, because I felt like I had a lot of eyes on me, how is she handling this? What is she doing next? Like? How do we continue to honor and it was just very much on some levels too much for me, because I was just like, I really need time to process this on my own. Instead of handling and hearing about everyone else’s grief. On top of just trying to deal with my own Did you feel like you were expected to show up for that stuff? Yeah, there were ceremonies to attend. And every year, there’s ceremonies that are offered for us to attend. And in the very early stages, I showed up to these and I was just going to complete days, I was just out of body experience, going to some memorial services. And it was just almost like attending funeral after funeral in my mind. And I was just like, I can’t keep reliving this over and over again, it was just almost debilitating to a degree that at some point decided I needed to take a little bit of a step back and not push myself that I have to show up at all these events. And while I’m grateful that they are happening, and that he continues to be remembered and honored, I also have to remember to respect where I’m at too. And know that because I can tell at this point, like in my grief, how I’m going to handle something. And so sometimes needing to put up boundaries where you’re like, Okay, I appreciate the invite, I need time for my own reflection right now and my own self care. So not always feeling like you have to be present at everything, which of course that comes with a dose of guilt easily. But it also just comes down to your own sanity, and just having to give yourself grace to grieve in the way you need to because no one else can fully understand your position and what you’re going through. And what’s your feeling when my late husband died, we had a private funeral service here locally for him. And it was another separate service in his home state. And I was so weak because I had traveled to Germany to be with him. And I had just gotten back. And I still had my six month old daughter waiting for me to take care of her and I was sick and weak. And I remember having to make that decision that I cannot travel to the other state to do both services. So I asked them to have one for me here so that I could have a proper memorial for him here. And because I just was in no state to keep going and just having to make those decisions was very hard. I worried about what people would think very much and down the road. There were times when I had to speak up and tell people be more vocal about what my boundaries were, which was not comfortable. I like to be a mediator. I like to keep people and I have a history of people pleasing. And so having to step out of that people pleasing role and and say I’m not comfortable with this or that or they’re would
Elizabeth Catignani 30:00
Even some friends that I lost along the way, because they didn’t really know how to be there, and they felt awkward and uncomfortable. And somehow those relationships just fizzled out. And normally, I wouldn’t have probably let that happen. But I just knew I’m like, I just need the right people around me right now. And so that might mean losing some people. So that was an interesting experience to just having to accept that not everyone’s going to be able to stand by you. But those that can. They’re incredible. And I have amazing friendships that I made. After those losses. There’s the people that can stand with you and that are gold.
Victoria Volk 30:37
Yeah, they say you’re a son of the five people, you surround yourself with happening with grief, it’s especially important to really refine your circle around, you don’t feel better. After you leave the presence of those people. Maybe they’re not right for you at this time. Maybe they will be later and people fade in and fade out. And that’s okay. One aspect too, I hadn’t really given much thought to until our conversation. I’m a veteran too. But I wouldn’t have imagined I never gave much thought to the fact that if you lose a spouse in the military, you have your family, your spouse’s family, but yeah, then you do have this extended military family and it is a Brotherhood or sisterhood. And yeah, I just never really thought much about that. And how that could influence maybe be more added stress of what you just described. Thank you for your sacrifices as a spouse, to someone in the military. I know the family sacrifices, too. But there’s so much goodness in what you just shared. You’ve shared the challenges, you’ve shared a lot of the things that helped you in the boundaries and things that helped you shift your perspective gave a lot of tips, was there any advice that you personally received from someone that I think you even said that to there was that quote, you mentioned practice, not a perfect.
Elizabeth Catignani 31:26
Yeah. And then also early on, I was really fortunate to meet this. She was my first friend that was also widow, she had lost her husband, probably, I think it was just a few months before mine had died. So we were, we were around the same time period as far as that, but she just really gave me permission to be where I was, with what I was feeling, she reminded me to, if I just needed someone there with me, and they didn’t have to say anything, if I just needed a presence that she would do that for me, I can remember her showing up to my door one day with a big chocolate milkshake. And no plans, I am just here, just letting you know. And she would sit with me and just if I needed to talk, she would just let me talk. And it was just such a nice companionship to have because it was just reminding me that where I was okay. And to have just that feeling of support, even if that person didn’t have to say anything being there. Because you know, after that first influx of people calling or cards or just that initial reaction to the loss, it can feel like all of a sudden people just have moved on with their lives and forgotten. And so just having someone there for after that period of time was just incredibly therapeutic to know that even though maybe the rest of everyone else is moving forward, I’m still dealing with this. And it’s okay. And I’m allowed to be in that space still. And so just giving ourselves permission to do our journey, it’s going to be messy. It’s going to be interesting, it’s going to be up and down. But it’s each our own journey, and it should be honored.
Victoria Volk 33:42
And we all agree that 100% There’s no half. And I’m curious, what was the difference or similarities too between the grief that you felt after the loss of your son versus the loss of your husband?
Elizabeth Catignani 33:56
I don’t think there was a huge difference other than it just felt like an additional emptiness. Because when that person leaves that just the whole world feels empty.
Elizabeth Catignani 34:05
And I can just recall that sense of just complete loneliness and emptiness because having had that shared grief with my spouse, and then suddenly not even having him to talk to about the death of our son anymore to have that one person that could really connect with you on that intimate level of shared grief. That was just like another just complete stab to the heart. I don’t think there was a lot different other than just feeling that additional, all those extra losses because the main loss, you just lose so much else. There’s just so many layers of loss that goes along with it that you wouldn’t have even considered that yeah, just that emptiness. Like because I remember my arms just feeling empty, empty after my son died empty after Brian died and I just felt very lost and in both situations, and one is not worse than the other. They’re both awful in their own way.
Elizabeth Catignani 35:00
And so it was just okay, starting over again. Like how many chapters? How many books am I going to have, I never would have imagined that I would have had so many by the sage, but it’s just, we can’t control. We can only control how we react and how we heal and how we respond. And just that was one of the huge wake up calls for me it was how little control I had over life in general, just wow, things just happen. It doesn’t matter. If you’re good or a bad person, they just happen and you just can’t drive the ship. But you can choose how you manage the aftermath.
Victoria Volk 35:31
Comes back to how we first started this podcast and how we can plan our lives and rarely do our lives turn out how we plan on grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative. It’s what we say in Grief Recovery. And that’s why your losses stack up like luggage in your body or box, if you have a backpack or rocks, we carry that stuff forward with us those losses, all the losses, you need to like move that out somehow. And you said implode, that’s what we say in Grief Recovery, too. It’s either you implode or you explode. Let’s say I gave you a mic and you just have the floor of the world. What would you like to scream to the world and wish people knew?
Elizabeth Catignani 36:20
Oh, there’s so much I could say, I guess one of the things that first comes to mind is just life is just so short. And if we spend more time in just the space of love and gratitude, and you never know what tomorrow is gonna bring. You never know what’s around the corner. And just really holding on to the small moments, that’s really where I find a lot of my joy these days is just those little moments, whether it’s my daughter giving me a hug, or saying I love you, or it’s not about what you do, or who your title or whatever projects you’re working on life is now. And and it’s just who you are that really matters and what energy you give to the world that truly matters. Because we’re all in this I feel like we get so caught up and do with have to do things a certain way.
Elizabeth Catignani 37:14
Or we’re always comparing, or we get so wrapped up in social media and comparisons and other people’s lives, how they compare it, it’s just such a waste of time, it’s just being in the now such a challenge these days. But I think it’s just so important to find those moments throughout the day, to ground yourself to remember where you are and who you are, and creating those connections with the people you love the most. And that mean the most to you just getting into the heart of life, I feel just being aware of those moments, because it’s just when I look back, I think the most random, small moments are what I hold the good hold on to like just memories, I never would have thought would be a big deal. But nothing grandiose is just sort of just remembering to have some gratitude for just getting to wake up each day. And even if things don’t go great, having gratitude for the small moments of things that are going well and your health, just those things just are something that I really tried to focus on so much in my life now are just those small moments. And like, oh, the sun coming in through the window right now is beautiful. And I can feel the warmth and just having a moment with that. Because that’s like happening right there.
Victoria Volk 38:28
I think to what you ended up doing for yourself, was you connected to yourself first, which then enabled you to fully connect with others, and maybe even to receive love again, because I recognize that there was a timeframe in there after your husband passed and before you have remarried. Did you make that conscious choice, an intention to give yourself the time and space before you decided to be open to receiving love in that way again,
Elizabeth Catignani 39:06
I did definitely focus on trying to figure that out. He did date a bit afterwards, of course, I went through several relationships that were not the healthiest feeling situations. And I realized afterwards that I had needed more time for myself to heal and reconnect because I had been reaching for something outside of myself to fill that void. And I always have told other widows there’s no timeline of like when you can start dating again or looking for searching and you need human connection you want to feel in partnership. There’s nothing wrong with that. But it’s also harder to find a healthy version of that if you are not healthy within yourself. And so I did experience a lot of let downs and find myself in situations where I was just because I was just trying to rush I think and so it took some some lessons they’re for me to realize, okay, I need to step back and reflect on where I’m at in my grief and my healing, and give myself this a little more space before, I’m able to invite that in. Because I wasn’t giving out the right energy, I wasn’t receiving the energy I needed and deserved, that’s when the right guy came along, for me, the right partner. And that’s also another area where I think we don’t need to not be too hard on ourselves, because you’re trying to grieve and trying to find a new relationship and trying to navigate relationships are complicated in general. So add on the loss of your spouse before that, and it’s just like, very overwhelmed parenting and finding the right person that’s going to be a good co parent with you match that style. There’s so many layers and levels. So it can be very complicated. And it is about really having to connect with yourself first, and remember who find yourself and who you are. Because that’s what’s going to attract the right person to you. And so that’s something it took me a while to figure out. So that was like a whole other several chapters of my life, figuring that out with a man Oh, my gosh, I have to go back into this dating world. Again, nobody wants to have to do I just remember dreading it. But yeah, after I gave myself a little more space and paid attention to what I needed, I was able to find a healthy relationship again.
Victoria Volk 41:21
So you intuitively knew because you were dreading it, right? And we don’t listen to those calls in our bodies, like your voice in your head was saying, no, not No, not yet. You’re dreading it, you’re not ready. And so we just try to push that voice down that intuition? And how do you get in touch with your intuition? Is you connect to yourself? Yeah. And so definitely the word that comes up for me when I heard you say, where I heard you talking about that as patients. It’s just Yeah, patience with yourself. Yeah, the process.
Elizabeth Catignani 41:54
Yes. And patience, I’ve always had a struggle with patience.
Victoria Volk 41:58
But just do many of us do, and especially in grief, and especially with losses so close to each other. And really, the loss of a child. I just had a conversation yesterday with a woman I was crying the whole time, I can’t even imagine I have three kids I cannot imagine, and nobody else to and that’s why it can be so uncomfortable for so many people to put themselves in those shoes.
Elizabeth Catignani 42:24
Yeah,
Victoria Volk 42:25
And I think that’s why so many relationships, or friendships do fall away, because it’s like a mirror to them.
Elizabeth Catignani 42:30
Yeah, nobody wants to have those thoughts or to know that can be a reality, and I can’t really blame them. So yeah, being able to find a partner that could be strong within himself to know my story and to accept because I because afterwards, I was like posh, who’s gonna want me with all my baggage and this story that I have, and all this heartache. And that’s a lot. I was like, as a single mom, it’s a lot for somebody to take on and was like, who’s gonna want this. And I had to learn that those things were not my faults. And it’s just my story. There were things that happened to me, it didn’t mean that was who I was, or that I was a terrible mess or anything, it was just honoring that this had been my journey, and that I was doing the best that I could, and should just be an honor of that. And it’s possible. There’s people out there, the man I’m married to, he’s got a huge heart, and just fully comfortable within himself and can completely honor this was my story, I can talk about my husband and not feel awkward about it. If it comes up, I think it’s important to be in a situation where you feel like your story can live freely and be honored. And to not have to feel like you have to hide it or to tuck it away or feel ashamed. If it’s something that just happened to you. It’s life, we all do the best we can create the best out of our situations that we can. And so I think that’s important to realize, too, is that you’re still worthy, you’re worthy of love, you’re worthy of joy and happiness. No matter what kind of loss you’ve gone through. You still deserve that.
Victoria Volk 44:11
I want to touch on something because I think it’s very important. Your daughter had a loss to despite not knowing him only through what you share with her and through pictures and words and videos and stories and things. What would you like to share about that experience, like parenting a child through that? It’s one thing for a child to know who they’re missing, but then to not know, really different type of grief experience.
Elizabeth Catignani 44:30
It definitely is. And I’ve just had to figure that out as we’ve gone along the way. I’ve always like when she was very little I had a picture of him and her in her room and always open to talking about it or if something comes up that reminded me of something he might have said or done and I’ll say it to her I’ll say oh, your daddy Brian would have thought this or done that, or I would tell her stories of when she was a baby and just little moments of him with her that I can recall. And so it just comes up naturally in conversation on different days. And so I do what I can to keep him alive for her his presence there. And I have a beautiful scrapbook like a memory book that I made to have, like I have from his childhood, all the way up till when he died. And there’s like newspaper clippings and photos. And so it’s something that as she grows older, I think she’ll process the loss in different ways as she ages and reaches different stages of her life. Because I know it’s not as maybe real to her right now, as she’s like this mysterious dream. I feel like in a way, so I’ve just as best I can just made it comfortable for her to bring up whatever, there were some beautiful like pictures and objects made in his honor, like this beautiful carved wooden flag that she could put in her room, or she can grow up and take with her to her own home one day, or like a painting that he bought that I have. And then she’s also read my book that I wrote. So she really does know a lot of the story. And so that’s just always been important to me is that it’s a safe thing to talk about that it doesn’t have to be ever uncomfortable. And that’s just been my approach. And then she does have an older half sister that she’s five years older, she does remember him very well. And so they’ve had a good relationship. And I think she gets a lot of nice stories through her older sister too, which is great. But yeah, I think it’s really about just keeping the subject open, keeping his memory alive. And she asks about him now. And then if she has questions, or it’s evolved throughout the years, but I’ll mentioned today’s anniversary, do you want to talk about anything or you want to honor in some way? But yeah, it’s not the same as if she had known her. We don’t really we can’t have those conversations about oh, remember when this was done, seeing how she grows with it, and evolves with it over the years, and I just tried to keep the conversation open.
Victoria Volk 47:09
She also lost a brother too.
Elizabeth Catignani 47:12
She did yeah. And I do mention him a lot as well. And that’s another thing that I think over time, it’ll become a part of her in a certain way. And she might honor it in her own way as she gets older as well. So yeah, I think it’s important to just to be real about it just as painful and uncomfortable. And sad as it is, this is what happened. This is part of your story, too. And I think it’ll help her figure out understand herself maybe as she gets older.
Victoria Volk 47:41
The experience of a child griever versus first experiencing grief in adulthood, it is very different. I’m a child Griever. So you grow up with that knowledge like it. And it helps you I can look back now, but it helps you to mature really, in ways that you didn’t ask for. But it’s a very different type of feeling of grief. I think it’s an intimate part of who you are. Essentially, what is your son’s name?
Elizabeth Catignani 48:13
His name was Turkey Brian is a nickname for an Australian teammate that Brian had overseas.
Victoria Volk 48:21
We like you name so I actually think that’s really cute. Well, yeah.
Victoria Volk 48:27
I didn’t know how to ask that. I’m gonna bring this up on the podcast, because maybe other people are wondering that too. But I wanted to ask, what was his name? But he’s still in your heart. Right? What is his name? And so that’s why I asked it in that way. So for anyone listening.
Elizabeth Catignani 48:40
I love that. Yes, he’s always they’re always skills president, he’ll always be your Tookie will always be my son. And it’s something that he made me a mom, you as my firstborn. And wherever he is, because it is something that whenever you get asked, Oh, how many kids do you have? Or it depends on the situation. But most of the time, I’ll just acknowledge, oh, I’ve got two daughters. But there’s that party that’s just actually have three kids. I’ve got a son too. And it’s not always the most I’m like, Oh, do I really want to go there and the depending on who I’m talking to do I want to bring this up? Because it’s instantly Oh, you know, like a little bit shocking to whoever you’re saying it to. And so that is a sadness that I carry people see me with my two children, but I really have three. And that will always stick in my heart because yeah, I want him to be acknowledged. And yeah, it’s like if you’re in conversation with somebody out of nowhere, you don’t really know them. It’s something that I’m not always just gonna drop it. Oh, I have a son in heaven or an afterlife and got these two, but I know that’s a pain I’m sure a lot of parents carry that have lost a child.
Victoria Volk 49:57
could say I have two living daughters, and I have one angel son. And don’t feel the need to say anything.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:09
I like that.
Victoria Volk 50:10
Yeah, then you let them off the hook, but yet you’re honoring.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:13
Yes. That’s a good I like that. I like. That sounds very nice. I’ve said that.
Victoria Volk 50:23
Yeah. Good. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Elizabeth Catignani 50:26
I think so like this has been a really lovely conversation. And I hope that it’s been helpful to those ever listening. But yeah, it’s been an honor to be here with you.
Victoria Volk 50:39
Thank you, it’s been my honor to hear your story. So thank you for being my guest. Where can people find you if they would like to connect.
Elizabeth Catignani 50:47
I have a website. It’s called hercreativewellness.com. And you can also find me on Instagram, at the same handle, and also my book, Freedom breathing, you can find that on my website. And also, it’s available on Amazon. And the audiobook version is going to be available, I believe, near the end of the month. So I’m excited about that.
Victoria Volk 51:15
We didn’t talk about this. But if you can briefly describe what is the difference between a certified creative grief coach and say, someone like me, I wouldn’t say I’m a coach, either. I don’t know what I am grief guy, I don’t know. But what is the distinction you could share.
Elizabeth Catignani 51:32
So what we really focus on is with the creative side of expressing your grief different. And it’s interesting, because I know some people may feel like they’re not creative at all, I have a creative bone in their body. But I truly believe that anybody has creativity within them. And it doesn’t mean you’re an artist, or you have to be focused in any medium or anything, but just finding different ways to process your grief. And it can be through different techniques like whether it’s through a diagram or a drawing or colors, or doing something outside processing through movement, it’s really about trying different tools and seeing what fits for you. There’s just so many ways we can channel our grief. And I’m always looking for new, unique ways that resonate with me. And that might help someone else because it really is a mind body, spiritual experience on so many levels. And so really addressing all those different areas of our being as a whole through this integrative process, I think it’s very important because we really do hold, we can carry it a lot in our bodies, we can feel it or aches and pains, one of the women that used to work at the respite center, she was a grief massage therapist, so she specialized in helping people that had gone through loss. And she had a very specific technique for giving them a massage that was very in tune with certain anxieties they might have, or fear of touch that they might have, or setting the mood a certain way with music or lighting and things like that just approaching it differently. It’s things like that, that I find amazing, and that they’re even available. Cuz there are so many different ways to express yourself through your healing. And like for me, like this past year, I really got into photography. And I took a photography course online, and I just found this amazing piece and capturing flowers and different seasons and just working with color. And it just being able to capture memories in that way. So there’s just so many unique outlets that we might not typically think about when we can process what we’ve been through and also to find joy in the moment. And so yes, I really to emphasize that we’re all creative in some way. And that using our creativity, I think it’s a really important way that we can help ourselves on our healing path.
Victoria Volk 53:58
And it’s a muscle that you have to flex have to lose it in order to like let it come out.
Elizabeth Catignani 54:05
Definitely, yeah,
Victoria Volk 54:07
Actually, there was a traveling project that was going to the different military outpatient clinics. And I had seen it when I had a doctor’s appointment at the VA one time. And what it was veterans would have, like do like a paper mache of their face, like an imprint, and they would paint the face in or as a reflection of what they were feeling. Oh, that’s the face that they presented to others. What does that look like? What am I? How am I showing up with this pain on my face? I just got goosebumps again thinking about it because especially with military service, it’s loss and there’s so much loss. I just thought it was brilliant idea for a project.
Elizabeth Catignani 54:53
Wow, that’s really that’s incredible.
Victoria Volk 54:55
Yeah, I could see that with like trauma victims even just any grief, right? Just any kind of grief I’ll try and find the link. I don’t know what it was a couple of years ago, but it might inspire the work that you’re doing with people. So find the link for you. And if I do find it, I will put it in the show notes too. Because if it Yeah, out there, I think it’d be really see how other people are channeling their creativity in their grief.
Elizabeth Catignani 55:24
Really, I love that.
Victoria Volk 55:26
Anything else you’d like to share?
Elizabeth Catignani 55:27
I don’t think so. I think I tried to share a lot what was on my heart and yeah, it’s been an amazing conversation.
Victoria Volk 55:35
I agree. Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
