Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Resources |
Susana Morell | Hearts Matter Project: “Bad” Children or Hurting Children?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Susana is no stranger to grief. As a young child, she was a victim of sexual abuse. As a young adult, she lost her mother, later becoming her father’s caretaker, only to eventually lose him. The death of her nephew to suicide was when she realized that she could do something – that she needed to do something.
Susana would put her strengths, skills, training as a Certified Grief Recovery Specialist, education in Clinical Psychology, and, more importantly, the pain of her past into purpose by serving the most vulnerable – children.
Three out of four children, ages 6-17, have experienced the loss of a loved one, a loved one becoming terminally ill, or anger due to changes within the family dynamics. Susana wanted to create and provide tools for children, parents, and school districts, to help them understand themselves and their grief experience better.
These tools would be developed and communicated through her book, The Hearts Matter Project, eventually becoming the curriculum, Shielding Hearts.
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Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As the 30 plus year graver and advanced Grief Recovery Method specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talk about the weather? Let’s get started. This episode is sponsored by do grief differently. My 12 week in person or online program that helps Grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better, and do grief differently. You learn new tools, education, and a method you can utilize the rest of your life. In this program and with my guidance, you remove the pain of grief, the sadness will always be there because even in complicated relationships we love but it’s the pain of grief that keeps us stuck. Are you ready to do grief differently? Check out my website wwwtheunleashedheart.com to learn more. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Susana Morell. She is a master level clinician and grief expert who transformed her heartache into a curriculum for children to learn how to process their grief and loss in a unique and healthy way. Her education and experience has molded her into a patient empathetic and nurturing grief counselor. She herself has been affected with how heartache grief and loss can create internal conflicts and multiple stressors. As a working professional in her field, she has been given the opportunity to become a certified Grief Recovery specialist through the Grief Recovery Institute. Her passion lies with supporting Grievers who allow themselves to become oriented with the effects of grief and loss so they can return to their routines and move forward. Thank you so much for being here.
Susana Morell 2:27
Well, thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 2:29
I’m excited to highlight Shielding Hearts as a nonprofit, for the podcast, because I feel it’s near and dear to my heart especially I’m a child Griever, my dad passed away when I was eight. And there weren’t resources or services in the late 80s. For me, or other children for that matter. I didn’t know anybody else who had experienced that. So I felt very alone and very isolated. And people, truthfully, staff and friends didn’t know how to to be around me or to support me. And so I’m really excited to learn more about shielding hearts, I was reading through your paperwork, because we’re both certified Grief Recovery specialists through the Institute, which is another reason why I was excited to highlight your organization because you have that background. But also Furthermore, you have that clinical psychology background as well. And so they’re bringing you bring another element to that work. And so let’s start with your story, though, in how this really came to be for you.
Susana Morell 3:42
So in 2017, and I had already been a year after I lost my father and I was my father’s caregiver. So I think that was the hardest thing to see your hero become a weak and then eventually, you know, to lose him that was very, very difficult within itself. And I was the I’m the youngest child. So being his baby, it was very, very difficult. So you’re trying to get your footing and trying to get back into mainstream of life. And you just your heart is so heavy. And that’s when I found the Grief Recovery method. And it helped me to be able to really process and understand how the loss was affecting me since I had also just lost my mom two years before. So I’m losing my two constants in my life who have been, you know, my compass helped had been co parents and I was a single mom at the age of 19. So these two individuals that just were just everything to me, it was very, very difficult. But as I mentioned on 2017 I lost my nephew to suicide. And that really broke my heart on on so many levels. So I was determined to put pen to paper and to say these children are are hurting, they’re suffering in silence. I know that we have amazing counselors, we have a lot of support and resources. But what if the parents can’t get them to those resources? So I channeled that hurt and frustration and anger. And I said, I don’t want anybody to ever have to be on the receiving end of that phone call, you know, he was only 17. And just for him to believe that that was his only out. It’s just I don’t I know that other children are feeling this way. So I created these modules to where children are able to come in ages six to 17, they get identified because first a caregiver, a guardian. Or, you know, a parent will come to the campus and ask the counselor, do you have any support here at school? And so I’m very proud that now the district that I am in can say we actually do, we have a grief expert that works with the children, and this is my fifth year being in the district. So it goes to show you that it has been the outcomes have been amazing. And the way that we set it up, you know, from the daytime is so much easier to be able to have access to the children because they’re they’re already on the campuses. So what I basically do is, for example, I’m going to go over what is really common that is said to children, that affects them. So any age range, but specifically with the children I work with, when they are asked, Are you okay? This really annoys them and makes them angry, because they’re seeking for an understanding of what just happened to them. They’ve had a huge disruption in their life when they lose a mom, their dad, as you mentioned yourself, so you feel very alone, isolated, your friends can understand. And if all an adult, a teacher counselor is offering friends of the family, other family members, are you okay? It kind of makes them feel like they’re being kicked while they’re down. Because what they want to say is how can I be okay, I just lost somebody very special to me. So I explained to them, I know that this, you know, is very hard to hear. But I’m going to go through the rest of the questions. And then at the end, I will share with you what I how I explained to them how they can have these questions to be stopped or statements to be stopped from being said to them, because they’re not helpful. When they’re also told I’m sorry for your loss. It makes them feel like what are you sorry, for? You weren’t responsible for taking my loved one from me? Why do you keep telling me you’re sorry for my loss. And it feels like people are taking pity on them. And they’re, they’re not wanting to feel that they’re they can’t cope. So that is a statement that, you know, really doesn’t help. The next one is your grandma, grandpa, mom, dad isn’t a better place, sweetie. They mean, no disrespect, that this may be a glorious place. But what their heart is desiring and what they are yearning for is for their loved one to be physically here with them. So it’s like they’re being force fed this idea and their feelings are being minimized when they’re told this. But they’re in a better place. They’re not suffering. I’m they’re not negating that, that they want to feel acknowledged. And so I allow them to be able to understand why that’s bothersome to them. The next one is you have to stay strong. Your mom would have wanted you to be strong, your dad would have wanted you to keep it together, you’ve got to think about, you know this that that’s you know, that’s not fair to say that to a child because it is nothing about being strong or weak. They are, they are hurting, they are going through an array of emotions. They tell me it’s like this vortex that they’re just out of their body and, and they just they say it feels horrible. I said I and the everybody always asked me so what should we say to them? I always say, we don’t know exactly how this has affected them because grief affects everybody differently. So try just starting the conversation with I couldn’t even imagine. You know how you’re feeling? Would you like to talk about it? I’m here for you. That’s so much healthier than these statements. The one that hurts the most is when they’re told you have to accept that your mom is gone. You have to accept you have to move on. What if they’re not ready to? You know, so I tell them, you will never hear that from Susanna. My goal is that I’m going to teach you to adjust and adapt to the huge loss that you have experienced and to be able to understand that. So just in that first session, I Tell them you don’t like these statements, you don’t like being asked these questions. No, I don’t, then guess let advocate for yourself, you have a voice for a reason. And you need to tell your aunt that the next time you’re in passing with her and she asks you Are you okay? For example, you need to tell her. And you know, Auntie, please don’t say this to me, it does not help. Because children, they’re, they’re coming from a perspective that you’re the adults, you know better. And so surely you will not say this to me every time you see me. And I tell them, This is what you think. But they don’t know what’s gonna help you, and what’s not gonna work for you. So this is when you have to advocate for yourself and say, Please don’t say this to me. And it changes the dynamic. And then the person knows, the last thing I’d ever want to do is hurt you, or make you feel sad, or bring up the thought of the loss. And maybe you weren’t even thinking about it. So then it helps them to be able to understand that. And to get away from that. With my high schoolers, what I do is I tell them, how frustrating is it that you go to the dictionary and you look up grief, and it says deep sorrow due to a loss? So what are you supposed to do with that? That’s so insensitive. It doesn’t give you any guidance, it just helps you to validate that your heart is broken into a million pieces. So I I am the first session have them confront with grief is and they get to write out their own definition of it. And we throw out words like grief to them is feeling misunderstood. They can’t breathe, they’re in a lot of pain. They’re frustrated, they’re losing hope, loss of trust, depression, anger, anxiety, sad, guilt, shame, no energy, and stuck.
So that’s the definition that they formulate. And I can’t imagine what they’ve been doing with these feelings before they came to the sessions. They’ve been walking around with this. And this is why they’ve been reactive. And they love how I addressed that. Before you came to grief counseling, not your finest moment, you’ve identified a lot of these feelings and how you can see how they can be hurtful to you and your relationships. So you’ve been sabotaging yourself. I said, so moving forward. Now you know that this is what’s caused that reactivity, with you cussing with you sabotaging your grades with you losing interest in your after school activities, baseball, football, cheerleading, you know, the debate club, anything. Now you know that that reactivity has taken over your life, and it’s basically speaking for you grief has been speaking for you, because that’s not who you are. And they’ll cry with me. And they’re like, No, that’s not who I am. I’m not a rude person. I’m not somebody who loses, you know, you know, side of what they need to be saying in the moment, and it overreact. That’s not who I am. It’s, you know, the grief has driven you to this. And you almost feel like you look in the mirror, and you don’t even know who you are anymore. So it’s being able to let them know, I know, you feel like you’re at a, you know, the edge of the cliff. And you’re like, that’s it, I don’t want to live like this, I’m ready to jump. And I, I would like to believe and the feedback that they’ve given me is that they feel like I’m tucking them away from the cliff. And they eventually are so far from it, when we’re done with our sessions, that they’re like, I can’t even believe I was once there. And I don’t ever want to get back to those feelings, because they get to process with me week to week for six, sometimes eight weeks. And it’s consistency. And they’re so proud of themselves that they’re having this opportunity for self care and to recover. And then they evolve and there’s so much healthier now feeling equipped, and now knowing what to do so that they don’t fall into, you know, into the grips of grief moving forward.
Victoria Volk 14:18
One thing I want to come back to circle back to a little bit is, first of all people who listen or listening adults who experienced grief or trauma as a child probably are identifying with everything you just said and are probably seeing those same things manifest in their life as an adult. That was my story. I’m sure for many Grievers. That is the case for child Grievers because you grow up with it. And unless you learn these tools, and gain new knowledge and how to respond to it, you’re going to continue those behaviors into adulthood. You and I both know this, right? Yes. One thing I want to highlight though is that And something that’s been on the forefront of my mind lately is that we do all there’s like, and as a grief recovery specialists, you know, this too is that we all respond to grief. Similarly, not the same. But similarly, like we have these STURMS, the short term energy relieving behaviors, these things resort to to feel better for a short period of time, or we might have angry outbursts, you know, we implode or we explode, we all do these things, some of us do one or the other, or a combination of different ones. But we all tend to respond to grief. Similarly, the reason why I would just want to highlight, we respond differently to our loss is because the relationship is unique. So it’s the relationship that we’re responding to, as in effect of that loss, right. So you can have two children who had the same loss, but they’re responding differently from the relationship, maybe one felt really loved. And the other one felt like they were the, you know, discarded or not cared for as much, or maybe they weren’t the favorites, you know, some siblings can feel that way. And if they lost their father or mother, they’re experiencing their grief in response to the relationship, so I just wanted to highlight that, for those listening, why you may have two children or kids in the classroom who’ve had a similar loss, but are responding differently, might be exhibiting those same behaviors, but yet, maybe one’s angry, and maybe one’s like I, I really internalized it. And I think your personality has a lot to do with that too. I was very much an introvert, I am an introvert. And so I, I was I didn’t have the angry outbursts, but I was tardy a lot. Fatigue was huge for me, as a child, you know, having accidents, things like that. I was also a child of sexual trauma, after my dad passed away, so there was a lot going on in my life as a child. So I just wanted to circle back to that for to clarify that. But I love what you’ve created, because it is so needed, desperately needed. So if someone is listening, who, oh, gosh, that sounds so cool, I want to bring this to my school, or I want my school to know about this does it have to be somebody who is a trained school counselor, or, you know, someone with a clinical degree psychologist who does work with the children in the school district to provide this program.
Susana Morell 17:48
Now, I’ve been very successful and training parents, so they can do the online training with me and I go through the workbook with them, it’s so the goal is to you know, improve the dialogue with children, the grief dialogue with them. And so, of course, the preference is that within the schools, you’d have the counselors train, and I’ve had a few train with me, and I love the you know, how they feel that they have more insight, they feel like they’re having a better understanding of the perspective of the grieving child after my training. So that’s huge, that’s key to be able to say, I feel like I can support this child, as to where you and I growing up, it was probably like, you know, you could tell the adult was uncomfortable, it didn’t know what to say, you know, and so it’s kind of like the blind leading the blind, you know, and when that needs to stop, we need to be able to, you know, be on the on the forefront, and to be able to say, like, we know that you have this huge emotional wound, and we want to help you heal, and we want to return peace and tranquility, so that you feel composed and get back to your life. So, you know, anybody who is works with children, whether that be a teacher, administrators, the counselors, you know, the crisis aides, just anybody in general, that, you know, I shoot for the stars, and that was my goal that, you know, people would catch on to this and say, you know, wow, and these modules, I mean, they’re, they’re so unique, they’re so different. It’s a lot of play therapy, it’s working with playdough, it’s working with Legos, you know, it’s doing all these exercises, but while the child is engaging in the activity, you’re being able to help them connect to this is why we did this activity to help you understand how to minimize anger, how to minimize hurt, how to minimize disappointment, how to minimize everything that you’ve been going through, and they feel that relief, like, oh, what you taught me today is something I can actually do, because they have all this potential, but they’re buried underneath all their potential when they’re grieving because they don’t even know right from left. So when you start, you know, being able to introduce this to them and they start feeling like they’re better informed, and that this is working for them, that they’re just they’re eager children are so eager to learn. And they, they, you know, there’s they desire this guidance so that they can navigate out of this situation.
Victoria Volk 20:16
ow did this become a nonprofit, because I know that there might be people listening that would like to start something similar or have something burning within them that they would like to bring to the forefront.
Susana Morell 20:33
So, um, as my individual office, you know, when you’re calling a school, or you’re calling an agency, or you’re calling just anybody in the community, and you say, I’m calling from Suzanna morale, counseling services, this is what I’ve done, this is how I’d like to help and you don’t get many phone calls back because they’re like, I don’t know who this person is, right. So everybody kept saying, you may want to consider becoming a nonprofit. I mean, you have your curriculum, you have great outcomes, this does work. And so this way, you’d be able to maybe reach more masses. And it’s just something about being an entity that’s very different than just being a person. And I said, okay, the, you know, I wouldn’t know the first place to start, I was very fortunate to have great mentors and to be able to say, Okay, this is how you license your curriculum. This is how you get the paperwork established, get lawyers involved, you start feeling very overwhelmed. But you know, you’ve got that passion, and you’re, you’re dedicated to this, and you’re like, if this is what I’ve got to do, to be able to support children, that’s fine, I’ll do it. And so it got established. And it’s very exciting. When you do receive, you know, being aware or receipt, getting your letter saying you are now you know, a 501 c three, and you’re just just so excited, because you’re like, I’m off to the races. And clearly, you know, this will be the answer that districts have been looking for and agencies and community support, and it doesn’t work that way. You just have to have a lot of patience. You have to just let people know you’re out there posting on social media, you know, being able to be on podcasts, and being able to just people to know what you’re doing. So they have a better understanding. I post videos, I have some of the activities that have been done when I’ve gone to go speak to campuses. And so it’s really, really hard to when I do a presentation to show how this works, because I can’t bring a child in and have them share their story due to confidentiality. So I can show the metrics and the goals that we’ve achieved. And the you know, the outcomes and how it’s evidence based. But that’s where it gets so frustrating Victoria, because people are like, Well, how do we know this really works? Well, I’m showing you start to finish I can bring in case studies and show you how the child enter telling me that they’re not sleeping their grades are, are you know, not what they should be. They’ve lost interest in everything. You’re talking about the fatigue Enos, you know, where they’re sad. They can’t talk about their feelings. They’re not, you know, they answer this questionnaire. And when out of these 10 questions, they have all these, you know, areas of their life that are being negatively impacted by grief. And they almost answer yes to everything. And then when they exit, they’re giving feedback saying yes, I have a better understanding of my feelings. Yes, I can talk about my feelings now. Yes, I feel like I have relief. Yes, I have a better understanding of grief. And I’m better informed. You know, yes, I’m eating better. Yes, I’m back to my activities. And then they share, you know, in their own words, can you please write us, you know, a sentence or two about your experience. And they say, I learned how not to hate the world. I loved this program, I learned that, you know, I was being misunderstood. Now I know how to be able to say how the grief affected me personally, I feel that I can, you know, be a support for my family. Now, I can help them to understand how we can improve the communication change dialogue. So when you get that back, you would hope that you know, I’d be doing more than just one district but once again, just to be patient, because it does have the potential it does work. And so that’s where I’m at right now. So 2022 Now starting during a pandemic, you know, that was scary. But the support is there. Recently, I was very fortunate to go into a family shelter. I approached the executive director at a community meeting and I said, I know you do you have a great program for rehabilitating the parents and for them to get back on their feet. What are you doing for the children while mom and dad are going and learning job seeking skills and financial literacy and you know, being able to work on themselves? What are you doing for the children and they were like, well, you No, we have someone who babysits them and they watch movies and they play and I said, you don’t think the child would like to process what has been like to be, you know, relocated overnight, be sleeping in a car now being a shelter being a program. And she’s like, we never thought about this at all, I’m sure their heart has a lot of things to say about this, you know, it’s a lot of changes. I mean, they can’t tell their friends where they’re at. I mean, so then I have been working with this family shelter for a year and a half now. And they have seen significant improvement, the children come in, you know, reactive, they’re rude, they’re, they’re feeling just very uncomfortable. They’re, you know, nitpicking at everything that they don’t like anything. Once they go through my program, they’re just like, they’re better adjusted. They trust the process. And most importantly, I remind them that at this current time, I know, this isn’t the ideal environment, this isn’t your home, but you’re safe. And at the end of the day, that’s more important than anything, and you’re surrounded by a lot of support and great volunteers. And so being able, the goal is for shielding hearts to be able to do more of that work, because, you know, the, the shelter, that they don’t have the funding to bring in someone to pay them, you know, what they could so through the donations that we have, were able to come in, and we’re able to give them, you know, a reduced rate to offer this support.
Victoria Volk 26:28
That’s amazing. And so for those listening to where where is shielding hurts based out of Hema, Texas. So right now, it’s just in Texas, but you’re looking to explore. Oh, absolutely. So I know, as a grief recovery specialist, you know, we the Grief Recovery Institute has the program, helping children with loss, and with the hearts matter project, that helping children with loss program is the foundation of that, and then you have incorporated other things that you’ve gotten from your training, is that accurate? Correct?
Susana Morell 27:05
Yes. And things that I created, when I Yeah, so when I was in grad school, I created a therapeutic game that would help children be able to feel that they could speak from, in a fun way, take on, like, speak through like, a character that they they really admired. So that in this moment, since you’re Ironman, for example, and we’d go around the board of the game that I invented, and they’d be able to speak well as Iron Man, this is what I think about divorce. And as Iron Man, this is what would have hurt Iron Man, and this and that. And so and then once, and then we’re able to say so Now eventually, in the game, we would put Iron Man aside, and we would allow the child to say what that was like for them to be able to, you know, hear that narrative and see that journey through Iron Man’s eyes, but now be able to feel comfortable enough to take the lead.
Victoria Volk 28:03
That’s brilliant. And actually, because, you know, children are imaginative, of course, but I can remember wanting to be anywhere else, but where I was, and to be anyone else, but who I was. And so to roleplay I think that’s brilliant. That’s a brilliant idea. And, you know, I think to like, what, what are your I don’t know why I’m thought of this, but like, with children with imaginary friends? Do you think that that is an aspect of their subconscious to or away for that they sometimes that children sometimes cope with stressors in their life of maybe that’s them role playing with an imaginary friend, like, you know, it’s almost as if like, they can’t, they don’t feel like they can communicate with the adults in their life, right? So they have this imaginary friend that they talk to, and do you? I don’t know, do you? Have you found that in your work that that’s sometimes a way a child is coping with stress?
Susana Morell 29:13
Absolutely. It’s so therapeutic for them. It works for them, the adult may become alarmed because they’re like, why are they talking? What Who are they talking to? What are they doing? And I always like to let parents know because I did write a book. That’s how you know I wrote a book and then I transformed the book into a parent guide. And I stress in the Parent Guide, mom, dad, caregiver, Guardian do not become alarmed. This is therapeutic. Because at the end of the day, who is the child hurting by having their imaginary friend, so not hurting anybody? They’re in their safe space.
Victoria Volk 29:50
You know, it’s not to say that they aren’t seen spirit and we aren’t going to go there. This podcast but I fully believe that that is the You know, children are unfiltered. Right? So they’re more likely to see spirit. And that’s what I believe anyway. But I love that you have written a book. And that’s what kind of created the curriculum. And so can you share a little bit about what that process was like for you?
Susana Morell 30:20
Yes. You know, I had always wanted to put, you know, you have all those years of experience. I’ve been in so many situations where I was over the crisis situations for children and families. And so you have all this knowledge, and you want to be able to break this down to help parents because they do they feel embarrassed, or they feel like why don’t I know what, because you’re not taught this in school, you know, and so I want I wrote the book from the perspective of like, being able to feel like you have some life skills, like you’re you feel more comfortable with it, to be able to engage with your child and to be able to speak to them through care and concern. Because when children tell me, my mom yells at me, she gets really angry at me when I’m crying. And I don’t understand that Miss Susanna, and I help the child understand, mom is, she is sad for you, she feels frustrated that she can’t take this hurt from you. And I wish she would just tell you that and instead of allowing herself to be reactive, and to be yelling at you, but that’s really what’s going on, I said, but rest assure mom is reading my parent guide, while you are here in the sessions with me, and you’re gonna see improvement, because if, if I’m helping you to better understand, you know, this grief process, I need mom to be on board to have a better understanding of how it’s affecting you. So they’re collaboratively you know, I wish I could have sessions with the parents too. But all the feedback from the parent guide is Oh, my gosh, that was that was written. And I never I could see what I was guilty of, and I love how it was broken down of what not to do. And to be able to feel like I have the support and written from from a standpoint of just being very, you know, yeah, therapeutic techniques in there, but not feeling like I needed to have a degree to understand this content, you know, just very just Elementary, just, you know, just something to wear. If I, you know, pay attention to the words that are written here, it’s to wear the same thing of what I give to the children I’m giving to the parents, like, oh, I can do that. I love that suggestion. I will apply that. And then they start to see the difference. So that’s what, what really drove me to be able to create that.
Victoria Volk 32:47
And what is the book called?
Susana Morell 32:48
The Hearts Matter Project.
Victoria Volk 32:50
Okay, perfect. And I’ll put a link in the show notes to that. Thank you. So what is one tip that you would give someone listening, whether it is a teacher, a counselor, a child, perhaps, maybe children, teens are listening to this, or a parent? Maybe your advice is different based on age, I’m not sure.
Susana Morell 33:18
Well, just in general, you know, I appreciate when someone wants to be empathetic, that wants to take that extra step to be able to be a part of that support system for a Griever. And I just always say, you don’t have to say anything, sometimes you don’t have to be you know, the expert in this. And just be honest with the child or, you know, with your co worker with anybody and just say, you know, I’m gonna be very honest, I don’t know what to say, I don’t know what to do. But I care about you. And as a human being, I can see you’re hurting. So is there anything that I can do to be able to help alleviate that hurt? Like, Are you overwhelmed, here at work? Are you this Are you that we can come together as you know, co workers and we can rally behind you and don’t We don’t want you to feel alone and we can offer the safety net. So to I encourage anybody to have that conversation, especially with children, you know, they’re not going to come and say to an adult, because they don’t want to feel that they’re disrespecting them. They appreciate everything that their parents are doing for them. But if you’re going to be nagging at them, because they haven’t taken the trash out, three days after they buried someone that was very important to them, you know, to pick and choose your battles. You know, they’re not deliberately trying to disobey you or it’s not that they forgot what their chores are. It’s just that right now, that’s not really a priority. So, you know, I would just really ask them to just be a little bit more sensitive to the situation. I’m not saying that excuse for a child to be running away crashing the car stealing money cussing? No, it does does not excuse that behavior. But if we can be more sensitive, and if we can address, you know, those behaviors with, I know that this cannot be, this had to be very difficult for you. And this is probably why you’re thinking that this is the only thing your only option for you. And I don’t want you to think that because you’re better than that you’re smarter than that. And what what can we do to be able to get you to eliminate those bad behaviors? And so just to be able to let them know, you know, we care about you too much to see you to sabotage yourself. Because that’s not the answer. And if you continue with this behavior at a 10 1217 into your 20s and 30s. You know, it’s it’s such a cliche, it sounds like a cliche, but it’s the truth hurt people hurt people.
Victoria Volk 35:57
I think so I guess yes, I think the biggest takeaway in what you just said is we can sum it up in a nutshell is for people listening, is that for parents, like you said, hurt people hurt people, but learn that learn how to be a safe person, a heart with the ears for the child and your life. And secondly, that those behaviors are a symptom. They’re a symptom. And so if you can learn to be a safe person and learn the tools, you might discover and uncover really what’s at the root of those symptoms of behavior. So what were you doing, I’m curious, when, at the time when you experienced your losses and loss of your nephew, were you on a different path and this like totally, like those losses, just change the trajectory of your life?
Susana Morell 36:51
Know, in 2015, when the court appointed me, my father’s guardian, I said, I know this is going to be really hard. I don’t know how long I’m going to have him for. Because he is deteriorating, they gave him three months under my care, he was with me 11 months. So I feel very honored that I was able to do that. But I was convinced, and him and I had lots of conversations. And he just told me that I have so much passion, I was such a great caregiver, I wanted to make changes, and I needed to believe in myself and I needed to get out there and do it. And I told him taking a big risk. And he said, It’s not about risk. It’s about you know what you believe in, you believe in that you can make a change, then do it, I know you will succeed, I have no doubt that you will create something beautiful. And so when I lost him, I really said, you know, this is the best way that I can honor them for supporting me for believing in me. For you know, just never allowing me to let any type of hurt or disappointment derail me from who I was destined to be. And I really feel like I’m serving a purpose. And it’s so unfortunate that you have to go through so many losses to discover that, but I feel so blessed. I feel like I’m living my best life. And when I can turn these children’s lives around. It’s just indescribable, to be able to be a part of that.
Victoria Volk 38:27
I just got goosebumps. It’s a beautiful, beautiful story and beautiful share. Would you like to share about your nephew, Lewis?
Susana Morell 38:36
Absolutely. Lewis was a young man that, unfortunately, he struggled being bipolar. And you know, within our mental health field, I just I wish there was more of a follow through. I know, they get assigned a caseworker and they have their psychiatrist and they’re good, but I really wish that there was more support for family when they don’t understand the mental illness. And so he I just feel like he got lost in the cracks. And he tried so much to get bounced back and it got harder and harder. And I’m, you know, my brother has never been a responsible father and he was just, he made fun of the disease and he made him feel, you know, demeaned and worthless. And, and I could come in and visit and I could, you know, pour so much love and remind him that, you know, because trust, I’m in the, I’m in the field, I’m trained in this trust that you will be okay, you’ll be able to cope. But you know, I live six hours away. So, you know, I can only you know, bring that to his life so often and so, but he would walk into a room and he’s just he was shy. He was so playful, but his smile was just it was just infectious and so sweet. He had a beautiful heart. And so, you know, one can The only thing that you know what, who he could have been what he wanted to study art, he was looking into art schools. And so yeah, we will never know. And that’s so unfortunate, but just a beautiful spirit. And I’m sure he’s so proud of me. He’s so proud of me, because I did. I did have for a moment to think, you know, you’re angry and you feel like, you know, did did the mental health field let him down? Did did? Did, did we not show up? Did we not do this. And through this work, and I help children and adults that I see in my office when they lose their partners to suicide. I help them to understand that at the end of the day, it breaks our heart that this is a choice that our loved one made. And it’s not for us to take personally.
Victoria Volk 40:51
Thank you for sharing. Well, and I want to there is an episode I had on my podcast a gentleman named Bob coolish, and he struggled with bipolar for well over 20 years before he was actually diagnosed. And he really educated me on bipolar. And he said that they call it the illness of loss. Because it is so often undiagnosed. But the one thing that he shared with me that blew my mind really, is when people go to a physician for support, right? When you when you’re feeling down and you’re feeling depressed, you don’t go to the doctor when you’re feeling amazing, right? You go to the doctor when you’re feeling like something’s wrong, or you’re feeling down or you’re sad, or, you know, you want to feel better write, that’s when you go. And as as a physician, if they’re not doing the proper screening for mental illness, including bipolar disorder, if they prescribe somebody who is depressed, an antidepressant, when in fact they have Bipolar, and they do not also prescribe a mood stabiliser, that essentially send someone with bipolar into mania. Someone with bipolar has to be on a mood stabilizer and an antidepressant. And that one decision of a physician causes harm. He told me that, and I have never forgotten that. And I’ve shared it with anybody who’s spoken to me about bipolar or anyone who has suspected that someone they love his bipolar, it is so important to be evaluated by someone who is trained in mental illness. And it just blows my mind that a regular physician, family physician is able to even screen for that. Or do so in a way that’s not they’re not trained to screen for that, right. They’re not given the proper tools and the training to actually screen for that. Because I think it’s great that people have access to a physician who can screen for that. But if they’re not properly trained, or they’re not doing that, they can do more harm. And someone will be in mania until they get proper treatment. And it just blew my mind. So if that’s an adult, going through that imagine now a teenager, who’s still whose mind and brain is still developing at a rapid pace and isn’t fully developed. Right? their frontal lobes are not fully developed until they’re 2425. So it’s educate yourself if you are suspecting mental illness of any kind, so that you can be an advocate for your child.
Susana Morell 44:00
Yeah, because I can’t imagine, you know, if there’s not this thorough understanding, you know, being able the child, you know, my nephew trusted these professionals, that they were always changing things, they’re always this, they’re always just wanting to admit him to psych units this that, I mean, a child starts thinking like, you’re I’m like an experiment. I’m a human being. And so why can’t we be able to get to the root or be able to give me the relief that I so desire instead of just, you know, well, that doesn’t work now, let’s reevaluate it doesn’t work. And so now you’re this and you’re getting in trouble at school and you’re doing this and you’re doing that now we’re gonna send you to the psych ward, and it’s just like this constant, you know, revolving door and I can see how it can just exhaust somebody, and then you go into mania and you just lose all hope. And it’s just, it’s a recipe for disaster. And it’s, it’s unfortunate that the children that children have to, you know, suffer in this manner.
Victoria Volk 45:00
Imagine the weight of someone as an adult going through that I just cannot even imagine the teenager how isolating that feels. I’m going to link to Bob’s link episode in the show notes too, for anyone who is interested in learning more about bipolar disorder. So thank you for, for sharing about that. So we could talk about that, because I think it’s very important. How did you come up with the name?
Susana Morell 45:27
Oh, thank you for asking. So the hearts matter project curriculum, I came up with that name, because I want the children to know that their hearts do matter. Their hearts are angered by so many feelings, and they feel stuck. And I want them to know that they do exist, they are one individual, their names may be very common, but the child that I have in front of me is one and only. And because they exist, I want them to exist in a positive way instead of a negative way. And that’s why it’s called the hearts matter project. Now, the logo for shielding Hearts is actually a picture of me as a little girl, I was in a cute dress. And I thought, How wonderful to be able to connect that image that that little girl as I’ve since since I can remember, I was always very nurturing, very caring, very loving, very sweet. And here she is this adult, you know, doing this work. And so I just love how it came full circle. And they were when they were like, Well, you got to find a logo, but nothing to where you would get copyright infringement or the you know, the legalities. And I said, I have the perfect logo I have this picture of, and I can just, you know, I would love to just jump into that picture and be that little girl again, because she hadn’t experienced the dysfunction, the heartache hurt, you know, everything. And so it just to be able to let her know that here, that little girl is now an adult and she is healed, and she only can what we’ve evolved to.
Victoria Volk 46:56
I love that. Had you experienced loss and grief as a child?
Susana Morell 47:01
Oh, yes. My goodness, yes. Probably the most hurtful and as loss of myself, you know, having sexual trauma. And so not knowing, I remember feeling like, you know, dirty, guilty shame, I don’t need to exist, I would hope that a car would hit me or an illness would take me or I wouldn’t wake up and, and until I was able to disclose that in junior high and get to counseling, and to be able to have somebody support me. And that’s when I said, you know, wow, this person and the supportive counselors, you know, throughout my life, before I decided to study counseling, I just said, I think I think I know what I want to do, because it almost feels like, it’s not the traditional, you’ll be okay, you know, you don’t have to talk about it. No one knows, it was, you know, that’s what family’s gonna say. But I needed more than that, because it was just so deep rooted and so much hurt. And then I was born with half a year on my left side. So having this, you know, defect and just everything that dysfunction of that and those surgeries and, and feeling like an alien and just, and then losing my grandpa that was very close to him. And then losing my aunt that was my one of my favorite aunts to cancer. So it just feels like I remember for myself as a child, every time I wanted to get back up and keep going and like life just would knock me down again and knock me down and knock me down. And you just eventually just feel like I don’t know what more I have to give. And if this is life, I don’t want to live it. And so, you know, um, I did have a suicide attempt at 18. And I tried to overdose, and I’m so glad that, you know, it was not my time. And that was not the answer. And through that recovery is where I was like, No, instead of sabotaging myself, I want to learn about this. I want to go get educated about this. And I want to be able to help people. And I think when you have that experience, you can help people and they feel very connected to you because I’m not having to tell them what I’ve been through. But they were like, Wow, you really do understand. And yes, I do. Because if I can recover, I want to encourage them and I want to help them get back to their lives and feel fulfilled. Because we’re given this life not to suffer. We’re given this beautiful life so that we can be amazing. And you know, and that we can just, you know, just feel like accomplished and just feel like we are you know this beautiful human being and we deserve to be able to live that life.
Victoria Volk 49:55
My heart is with yours and goes out to you on your life experience, and I feel like that is an origin story to be shared of shielding hearts. And I don’t recall reading any of that on your website. So I just wanted to encourage you to share that story. Because I love that image of use the little girl that you are the little girl in your logo. I think that’s beautiful.
Susana Morell 50:31
Thank you. And I appreciate you giving me that suggestion. Victoria. I’m just I think I felt like if I were to put that on the website didn’t want it to be about me. No, I wanted it to be about the health. And so now that you given me you know that feedback, it makes it feel no, it’s not about you. It’s about being having people to understand why you cared so much, why you wanted to make a difference, because you personally have been affected by it. And so I will definitely have to bring that to everybody’s attention and do an update to the website.
Victoria Volk 51:07
Definitely. I mean, that that. I didn’t know that that was you, the little girl. And so I think that’s a beautiful, like I said it’s beautiful origin story of your full circle life. Because had that suicide attempt and successful, there would be no shielding hurts. Right? That is correct. You wouldn’t have impacted over 700 children. It’s important. Thank you. What is the difference? Do you feel between? Because I think it’s important in distinct in sharing the distinction of how the hearts matter project is different. In that it includes evidence, evidence based content, right of, you know, the helping children with loss program, how have you felt, in your training personally, like the training that you were going through, you got your master’s in clinical psychology, but you actually went even with the knowledge that you had, you went through the Grief Recovery method. And I just for people listening, I just want to want you to share why that was so impactful, and why that was different than any training that you had received and why as someone who was training as a clinical psychologist, you felt that that was important for you to experience.
Susana Morell 52:33
I had never experienced the opportunity to obtain the apologies that I deserved. And that changed everything for me. You know, the person who sexually abused me as a family member, he went on to marry have daughters, I always cringed when I knew, you know, I, you know, he’s living his life. Like if like, if he didn’t, he’s done nothing wrong. And that has always killed me to be around family members and to hear his name spoken and what he’s doing because I’m like, you don’t know what monster this person is, and what he robbed of me my innocence. And I had never really fully recovered, until I did this work at, you know, the Grief Recovery method and my training, and to be able to, he’s not going to surface, he’s not going to reflect and he’s not going to redeem himself, and this lifetime with me, and knock on my door and beg for forgiveness, that’s not going to happen. So being able to hear that apology that I deserved, and that I desired allowed me to be at peace with it. And I just felt empowered. I felt just ready to just take this on and just start thinking like, How can I have others do this. And so that’s when I was just really determined. Once I acquired those skills, and I love being able to do that, in my private practice, when Grievers reached out to me and they said what will be different with this program than any other program and I explained to them, you are going to feel acknowledged, you are going to obtained these coping skills and learn a method that is really going to help you heal and to be able to help you recover. It’s not about a quick fix about putting a bandaid on it. Let’s have the emotional wound. Let’s heal once and for all so that you can feel, you know, compelled to want to get back to your life because they do they feel like they’re stuck. They feel like they’re that hamster on that wheel. It’s okay and then sometimes it gets bad and then it’s okay and sometimes it gets bad and I’m like, Let’s get off the wheel. Because that’s not where you belong. And so being able to do that in my office, I love it.
Victoria Volk 54:51
Same it is the most rewarding work that I have ever, ever done in My life as well, I Yeah, wholeheartedly 1,000% agree because being a child of sexual trauma abuse to, you will never get that apology and, and oftentimes to it, especially if someone who’s died, of course you will never right like so we we take this anger and we just we see inside. And this work really helps to soften, soften our hearts.
Susana Morell 55:31
And not just with grief and loss, I’ve now convinced the district that I’m at right now to let me work with the children that are demonstrating some inappropriate behaviors. And so you know, they get to come to the program, and come to find out that the disruption in their life is divorce, big sister Big Brother moving away to college, right, you know, moving from my house to an apartment because of financial hardship. And so I’m like, let me allow let me give these children an opportunity to process this, this could not have been easy for them. You know, it’s not that they’re ungrateful, it’s not that they’re ill mannered, they’re hurting. They want to know, how is it that one day I had a family dynamic and togetherness, and now it’s split. And this just catapults them into this, you know, just this emotional roller coaster, and they want it to stop. So I’m so glad that I’m able to work with those teams that are on probation, maybe did something on social media, that they didn’t have no idea how that would affect them. Never wanted to be on probation and the juvenile detention program. And so being able to give these children these skills is it’s, it’s amazing, because I don’t want them to be walking around with that anger, and then unresolved hurt. And so I’ve really advocated for that as well. So the program when counselors or teachers say, but I thought you were just grieving loss, a child anytime they experience any type of disruption. That is grief, it does not have to be just because it’s due to them burying somebody, it is their heart experiencing that hurt not having any reference to it. What just happened to me, that is grief and trauma for them.
Victoria Volk 57:21
And that is a huge part of our work, isn’t it? It’s just the education of of correcting that misinformation that grief is just about loss, which we know is not right. We know as an adult, you go through divorce? Well, of course you have grief with that, you know, what, who then why is it not normal, that a child would experience grief as well. So thank you for mentioning that. And I feel like that is a great way to conclude. I feel like it was a very good point you made, I love what you’ve created. And and it is my hope that it expands. And it just continues to grow. And is there anything else that you would like to share about shielding hearts, or about the hearts powder project or anything else that you would like that you didn’t get to
Susana Morell 58:12
Now I feel very comfortable with being able to explain the journey, the concept and who we are today. And I have a really great board that believes in the program. And like I said, it’s just being able to just tackle this one day at a time. And I’m not, I’m gonna stay determined, that’s what got me here, I’m gonna stay determined and just hope that this will grow because it really should be seen as life skills that these kids are just really searching for. They want to be able to feel that they can cope and move on. And they deserve that. And so that is just my hope that any any listener today will want to learn more, we’ll be able to see what resources we offer the book, the parent guide. And so just anybody who would love to be able to acquire these skills, we are here to support you.
Victoria Volk 59:08
So it is only in person, the curriculum, correct?
Susana Morell 59:12
No, the curriculum can be done online, we do have a virtual office and we can be I have been tapped in through video into classrooms and being able to offer this so we do have that virtual aspect of it as well.
Victoria Volk 59:27
Oh, glad I asked. Okay. All right. Well, there you have it. And if people want to learn more about you, or about Schilling hertz, where can they find you and reach out to you.
Susana Morell 59:38
We have it set up on the website to where if they’d like to schedule a consultation, they get to select what area they’re interested in, and then we’ll be more than happy to be in they actually have the calendar on there in the time. And then once they are able to do that, then we will be more than happy to follow up and be a able to reach out to them and see the reason for their inquiry and to be able to see how we can support.
Victoria Volk 1:00:07
But where can they find you? Online?
Susana Morell 1:00:10
Yes at www.shieldinghearts.org. And they can also find the book is on a susanamorell.com. And there’s a link there to purchase the book, it’s an E file, and the curriculum is available for purchase as well. And then when somebody does purchase the curriculum, then we can set up to where they can do the training, and they can learn how to utilize the modules. And the training is usually about 45 minutes up to an hour and 15 of your time. So any parent, any teacher, any counselor, Administrator, anybody working with children or just for personal knowledge to be able to expand on it to have this new skills, unique skills that are so beneficial, then we’ve been more than happy to set that up as well.
Victoria Volk 1:00:58
Amazing. Thank you so much, Susana, again for sharing all that you’ve created. And I love it. I love it so much. So thank you for being here today. Thank you, Victoria. All right. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parent Loss, Podcast |
Jill Batiansila | Together, We Heal
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Jill’s father walked out of their home when she was sixteen months old and didn’t return. He died in a plane crash, and her life was forever changed.
Fortunately, her mental health was of the utmost importance, having received counseling and therapy throughout her childhood and adulthood. During that time, the groundwork was being laid to prepare her, or as Jill would say, God was preparing her hands for His work. And that she did.
After finding her way from making jewelry for people celebrating special occasions to creating keepsakes in memory of loved ones, she inadvertently used her story, skills, and strengths in unexpected ways – supporting people through their grief in the co-creation of jewelry.
God told her it was time to turn her pain into purpose, and her non-profit, Together We Heal Community, was born in 2018.
One never knows where an idea will take us. Through Jill’s story, explore how she turned an idea and, more importantly, her pain into purpose.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:01
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Jill Batiansila. She is the founder of Together We Heal community in Elk Grove, California. She is a wife and mother of two teenage children after her biological father died in a plane crash when she was just 16 months old. She spent her childhood and early adulthood, avoiding any topic on death. In her early 40s, God flipped the switch on her heart and mission for her life and wove all her life experiences into her nonprofit, She now runs with the help of dedicated volunteers to serve those struggling with loss. And its many forums. Thank you so much, Jill, for being here and for being my first guest, as far as my new format for 2023 goes for highlighting nonprofit, not for profit organizations, foundations, things that people have created from the pain of their lives into purpose. And welcome to grieving voices.
Jill Batiansila 1:03
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:04
I’m very interested in your story of what led to the work you’re doing today. And how that has transformed and changed over time. Did you find yourself on this path? I mean, as you described in your bio, a little bit, you’re kind of on this path for many years. But what did it look like early on? After so much loss in your life?
Jill Batiansila 1:30
First of all, my mother remarried, when I was three to my stepfather, who might Don’t call my stepfather, He is God’s gift to me. When my dad, when my biological father passed away, I was 16 months old. My mom was living out on a ranch she was she did have support, she had a lot of family support. And I think she had such a hard time grieving as a young widow, that, you know, I really became her, her source of comfort, and I received counseling. All of my childhood, I have a half brother, who’s four years younger than I am. My mom was very invested in my well being and making sure that I got the help that I needed. So I had therapy all through my childhood into my adulthood, I had a lot of trauma, I wrote my mom a letter every single night, I remember when I was in grade school, and I was so afraid that she was going to go next, I was so afraid of losing the people that I love. So I had a lot of just, I think trauma and grief growing up that A was always going to a close be, even as my family I had my own family and they grew up, I still had this thought that, oh my goodness, they’re going to go, they’re going to go next. My father died in a plane accident. One morning, he just went out and didn’t come back. And so that was that was a continued thought that that was going to happen over and over. And so I didn’t want to talk about death. I didn’t want to think about death. I had a hard time even imagining anyone else that I loved leaving. And unfortunately, because you live and when you live long enough, you you experience grief. So I lost all my grandparents, I had three sets of grandparents. And they all passed away very quickly, in a very close period of time. And I just didn’t want to think about it. I didn’t want to talk about it. Every time I talked about it, I would break down. And then I realized after many, many years of therapy, that I was still grieving. I mean, I was in my 40s driving somewhere thinking what am I doing? And that’s my purpose in life. Am I doing it yet? And the clear answer was no, I was not. But God was really weaving all of my life experiences together to make this my purpose and it it wasn’t until my 40s that I realized, oh, I need to do something with this and I need to use my pain for a purpose. That was his specific words to me. Use your pain for purpose. Now it’s time.
Victoria Volk 4:18
So what were you doing before this took root in your heart and started to evolve?
Jill Batiansila 4:23
So I actually have a degree in psychology, which I didn’t use, then went on to get a teaching credential and a master’s in education, but then and taught for a while but had children and stopped and then when my children were small, I started a jewelry business and that jewelry business was hand stamped jewelry. I taught myself how to stamp this jewelry. And it became this custom local business and people would come into my studio at home and they wanted to put something in A lot of people were coming to me because they wanted to create something as a memorial. So many of my pieces were just mother’s necklaces, important anniversaries, Valentine’s Day, Christmas gifts, initials and things like that. But I did have a growing number of people who are coming into my studio because they’ve lost someone. And I did not understand this connection at first. But over and over and over again, people will be standing in my studio with me, we are creating this piece together and writing stuff down. And within five minutes, they’re crying. And I’m hugging them, and I’m offering comfort to them. And I’m thinking, what is happening? This is this is not my platform. This was not what I was supposed to do. But God knew better. He was weaving all of my life experiences, my psychology degree, my teaching degree, being a mother being a Griever. Together, I remember talking to my life coach at the time, and I was saying, I I don’t know if I should continue with this jewelry business, you know, my children are growing up, and am I missing things? And I just feel like maybe this is not what I’m supposed to do. And we talked a little bit about my history, my grief. And she said, Why don’t you use what you have? And just start something, start somewhere. And so that’s what I did. I mean, it, it really was the jewelry business was the vessel to the nonprofit. And I still do the jewelry business, but but it is not my heart anymore. And my I really have become comfortable with the idea that maybe the jewelry business paved the way because it got me here. And this is this is my heart. This is what I am meant to do.
Victoria Volk 6:53
I love that story. And I’m curious if you personally felt like a failure when you decided to in that business or if other people made the assumption that you had failed in some way?
Jill Batiansila 7:08
That is such a good question. Because I’ve struggled with that for the last year. Starting the nonprofit is I’m obviously it’s a grassroots organization. And I am a lot of I wear a lot of the hats. And I had this conversation with one of my best friends just a couple of weeks ago that I do. I don’t like to quit anything. And I haven’t officially quit the jewelry business website is still up, I still get orders, I still actually use a lot of my pieces. I’ve made Memorial bracelets that people that kits that people can put together and there’s paperwork to fill out about their favorite memories of their loved ones. So I I definitely praying about when if and when this completely goes away, the jewelry business goes away. But I do know that the nonprofit has gotten to a point where I can’t do it all myself and I do have an amazing executive board. And I have wonderful volunteers that helped me in different areas, the nonprofit, but I know that I can’t have asked this. So if I’m doing these two things one is going to give and it’s just been the jewelry business has been fading. I definitely went through a period of time where I felt like, Oh, this isn’t this isn’t what I first envisioned the jewelry business to be. But through talking with friends talking with my therapist, it is it wasn’t a failure at all. It was a success because it it led me to Together We Heal community. And I didn’t know that was the end result. But God did.
Victoria Volk 8:47
I bring that up because there was I’m a child grievers. Well, my dad passed away when I was eight. But there was a period of time I had a photography business very much like your creative outlet business. And I found myself writing, I would write blog posts about my clients and people would comment more about my writing than they did the pictures, although there are beautiful pictures and they love the pictures. But I always got comments about the writing people loved what I had to share how I saw them, right like young 1718 year old girls, I would write about what I saw in them or families or a wedding couple. And it was storytelling is what I was doing. And they loved reading how I perceived them. And I had decided to start a blog, a personal blog and decided I needed to close that business. I felt a calling for something more kind of like you right and I do have a point and bring this up this podcast isn’t about me. It’s about you. But I want people listening to understand that when we find our purpose The path there doesn’t always make sense, right? And so when closing that business, I felt like a failure. And I felt, and people thought I failed to. But I knew that I had to let that go in order for something else, to make room for this other thing that was really burning inside of me. And that was writing. And I wrote a book. And that led to some losses in between, which made me realize, oh, my gosh, I’m not okay, I was fine. For a lot of years, I thought I was fine. Which led to me becoming a grief counselor, and, you know, so it’s like, Everything leads to the next thing, nothing is wasted.
Jill Batiansila 10:43
No, that is, I think that’s been a very big component of together to heal community is letting certain things go so that other things can come up and be brought to the light brought to the surface. We do, I think we have a lot of expectations about ourselves. Growing up, whether it’s, you know, just things the expectations that were put on us, or if you’re like me, I have my own expectations that I obviously need to let go in order for other things to come to fruition.
Victoria Volk 11:12
And life has a way of putting those things confronting us with those things, right, that we need to work through so that we can get to that point of seeing the opportunity and recognizing the potential within ourselves.
Jill Batiansila 11:26
And I will add that throughout my journey with my jewelry business, I did blog a little bit. And that also helped me realize my true purpose. And I was never the only time I was ever truly passionate like I am with Together We Heal community was when I was writing stories, the stories behind the pieces that I was making. And I love doing that don’t get me wrong. I love helping people through their stories in creating jewelry. It’s just just blazed a trail for me to start together, we heal community. And when I talk about people, and I talk to people about the nonprofit, I feel like that passion really comes out. It’s so easy to tell my story now, because my story is not unlike a lot of people’s story. They just don’t know it yet. They think I’m alone, I’m, I’m the only one experiencing this. I don’t want to burden anybody else with this because they’re happy. And I’m the one that stuck here. But the more you tell your story, the more people open up about their own.
Victoria Volk 12:40
Or find an outlet to release the story. Yes, to tap into the feelings of what actually you’ve experienced. And I think that’s the thing is, so often we get caught up in the story. We recite it like a recipe card while and then this happened. And then and then and then. And we don’t really get to the nitty gritty of of how it’s making us feel and the impact it’s had on us. I want to ask you a question, because I think it’s important for those listening, because you mentioned unlike me, you had therapy, much of your life, most of your life all through childhood. I mean, again, nothing is wasted. But I’m just more curious, because of what I do is deal with grief specifically. Do you feel like it wasn’t helpful for your grief? Specifically? I don’t know. Do you still see a therapist? Do you mind me asking?
Jill Batiansila 13:28
Yes, I do. She’s amazing. And I would not be where I am today. If I if I didn’t have her. In fact, I think I see her tomorrow.
Victoria Volk 13:37
And that’s not a failure, either. Right? Because you’re seeing a therapist, that doesn’t mean you’re like, broken or messed up or.
Jill Batiansila 13:43
Well, number one, we’re all broken. We’re all broken. And I don’t sugarcoat that there are parts in our life that break us. And I don’t think that we’re truly healed until we’re that brokenness is is wide open for us to see. And I am a big proponent of therapy. You don’t have to be depressed. You don’t have to be at rock bottom to seek counseling. Now, I think counseling is is complicated because number one, I think people think I don’t need to tell someone my problem. I know what they’re going to say. And it’s expensive to be expensive right now. And in our world. There is a shortage of them. Finally seek one you’re often just met with walls. You know, oh, it’s a three month waiting period. Oh, I’m not taking new clients. Oh, you know, or, or you get to a therapist. And it’s been, it’s been a difficult journey to get there and then you don’t like them. So people often think I had one therapy. It was one therapy session. It was terrible. Okay. I always say try therapy. If you don’t like the person. You can give them up. You can try someone new. My therapist knows me you She is by the books. You know, she does not commingle personnel, even though I have her cell phone. And she’s connected me with a bunch of other therapists, she draws the line with, you know, professional and personal. I’ve seen her for, I don’t know, 15 years off and on, sometimes I would go every, every other week. Sometimes I go every, every once a year just as maintenance about maintenance, and it’s healthy. Sometimes I’m driving there, and I’m thinking, I don’t know what I’m going to talk to her about today. And then I just spew my guts for an hour, and I feel so much lighter. And she has this perspective that I don’t have. So it’s important, I think, but I don’t think therapy is necessarily for everyone. And that’s okay. You need to find an outlet. And that’s one of the reasons why we offer and I know we can get into that later, but we offer outside of the box opportunities to heal because not everybody wants to go to therapy, they look at therapy, and they go no, no, no. Okay. There’s there’s a myriad of other ways that we can help you.
Victoria Volk 16:04
Absolutely. And I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Grief Recovery. Have you?
Jill Batiansila 16:08
Not specifically Grief Recovery? Is that a method? is a method The Grief Recovery method? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Victoria Volk 16:18
That is the one thing that helped me, I did have a, I did attend therapy sessions in my early 20s, hypnotherapy, things like that. And much like what you mentioned, like my experience was not beneficial for me. But I think we come into our own time, when we might be ready for something like that. I think too, sometimes we aren’t ready to hear it. We aren’t ready to really dig deep. And I can tell you then in my early 20s, I certainly was not ready. And so I think we all have our own time and that when that happens, but
Jill Batiansila 16:54
I agree. And I think that as a griever. Our society doesn’t know how to deal with grief, we don’t know how to talk about it. We don’t know how to come alongside someone. In their grief, we don’t know, we’re uncomfortable with hard conversations. So often people are afraid to express to the Griever that I don’t know how to help you. And sometimes that is just sit with me. Or there’s a timeline to grief, you know, it’s it’s been a year right? You’re good, right? You you got through the first anniversary, you’re good. I don’t know how to help you, I expect you to be okay. And then they they start, you know, they’re back to their regular life. And so it’s important for people to not compare where they are in their grief with anybody else’s. And the other point that I make to people who are grieving is you don’t owe anybody any explanation as to where you are in your grief, I have come across people who are very stuck. And I don’t see them pulling themselves out of that. And there is frustration with the people around them that are trying to help them out and are invested in helping them with their grief. But grief can’t be fixed. But we can go through it. We can go through it on the other side. I myself have experienced that grief and joy at the same time. But we cannot compare even if it’s five years down the road, where we’re somebody else’s and five years later. Grief is so individual.
Victoria Volk 18:29
That’s exactly why I started this podcast grieving voices to educate people on how one they can move through it themselves, and to how they can learn through people’s stories, how to support other people and like this year, highlighting how people have moved through it themselves and now are supporting humanity on a greater scale. And it doesn’t have to be this grand thing, right? I’ve never heard of Together We Heal with community. And so this is part of my own curiosity to like, what, what is out there? What resources and what, what wonderful things are people doing? And so it’s out of my own pure curiosity to have that I’ve decided to make that a focus of my podcast this year. So let’s talk about how this started. Because you had no experience right? Yeah.
Jill Batiansila 19:22
I had to do it again. No, I my only experience was grief. I’m a people person. I’m a connector. And I just knew I needed to start with a platform where it was everything that’s out there about grief in one in one place. So I brought together some people who are willing to start a website with me and we divided it into different areas of grief you know, loss of a spouse, loss of parent loss of a child loss of divorce loss through suicide, and we tried to make it this complex. hence a website that encompassed everything that’s out there in the Sacramento area and into one place. So my goal is to really make Together We Heal community, a starting point. And you know, I’m the first to say, I am not a licensed clinician, but I am an experienced Griever. And I think that counts for a lot. And so we started with this website. And it took us about two years to build. And everyone who wrote the pages on the website, were an experienced graver in that area, my dear friend wrote who wrote the miscarriage page, she has experienced two miscarriages. And what she found actually, as a closed off person was after she wrote that page, and then started meeting people in her arena that that avidex had experienced miscarriage, she could easily talk about it, it was healing for her, and she realized that so many women experienced miscarriage. So we started the website. And then my next step was okay, let’s start getting some things going in Elk Grove, because I, our community is close knit. But there isn’t, there isn’t a lot out there to help Grievers. And I just really wanted to touch on different experiences, you know, somatic mindfulness, you know, when we experience grief, where do we feel it in our bodies? And how can we, how can we tackle grief from the side, you know, you don’t have to talk about grief, but just come here and be with us. Come and be with other gravers. So we then started a grief support group, we started different workshops that are that are healing and easy to come to you. There’s no pressure when you come to any of these, we call them workshops. It’s just come as you are and get this gift of this amazing people. But amazing people have come into this. And a lot of my facilitators don’t even charge Together We Heal community for their time, they’re also of service I have attracted people who want to give back and I’m so blessed to have those people come alongside me and, and create these services for our community. So we have a writing as a healing art. And you can come come to that class and write about anything, it doesn’t have to be about your grief, you’re given a writing prompt. The facilitator is a Griever herself. But she’s also a retired writing professor and super fun and she buries bring snacks, and she gives us some prompts. And we can write about anything we want. And we can share if we want and we don’t. But we most of us end up sharing, we have yoga nidra, which is mindfulness, you’re literally laying on a blanket with a pillow, and you’re being led through scanning your body, and where you hold your grief. It’s Joe Weston of breathing space has been a dear friend and confidant in this organization. And she leaves that once a month. She doesn’t charge me I have restorative yoga, we’re having a decluttering through grief class this this month are always finding new opportunities for people to come and just experience with no expectations.
Victoria Volk 23:29
And for those listening, this is in only in person like in the Sacramento area correct?
Jill Batiansila 23:34
Most of our offerings are in person. We do have some that are on Zoom. For instance, next month, Joe Weston is going to do her yoga nidra session on zoom so that other people in other areas can experience that are decluttering through grief, which is actually this Wednesday is on Zoom. I have people attending it who are in Colorado and other parts of California. So in though in the winter, we hold them at our space in Elk Grove in the summer, we hold a lot of workshops out at our farm where we grow flowers, which is another another part of the conversation.
Victoria Volk 24:10
No, I’m actually bringing up right now because I saw that in your information. And I think that’s a beautiful idea. So please share.
Jill Batiansila 24:17
It’s one of my favorite parts of this in the summer. We grow flowers out on a local farm, a dear friend of mine, Cliff Wilcox, who’s going to be at this year. Lets me grow flowers, and we give them away all summer long. It’s our outreach portion of Together We Heal community. It gets people involved in being outside we have lots of volunteer opportunities for people to go out there and plant and weed and arrange and deliver flowers. We have different businesses in Elk Grove that are willing to take those jars during the summer on a weekly basis. We bring 10 to 20 jars to a couple places around Elk Grove and people can pick them up for Free. And it’s just a way of encouraging people to start a conversation. So you can walk in, grab a jar, if you want to leave a donation, you can, but we don’t. We don’t ask for that. And it’s, it’s an opportunity for them to bring flowers to someone who they know are experiencing stress or anxiety loss doesn’t have to be through grief through death. But we’re all grieving something right now. We live in this broken world. And with everything that’s happened in the last couple of years, all the uncertainty, there’s so much grief, there’s loss of normalcy. So the flowers are a way to say, I’m not sure what to say to you. But here’s some flowers. And Aren’t they pretty, and they were grown for you. Everybody that put these together had you in mind for them. And I’m thinking of you. And I’m here, the flowers are started by seed about now right now we’re underwater because it’s, it’s been a tumultuous January. And we will have to start from scratch scratch. It’s looking pretty muddy out there right now. But we grow them by seed. And then it during the summer, we have you pick days, so people can go out there and pick them themselves. And I will tell you, it’s magic. That place out there. The farm Cliff Wilcox lets me do whatever I want. He doesn’t charge me because he’s so sweet. And I love him. And we have our wellness retreats out there, we had a wonderful wellness retreat in the fall. And we’re having another one in April. And that wellness retreat was just come and be here with us. We had massage and yoga, we had nutritional components, we had the writing, and it was catered music, and it was beautiful. And and people just got to be outside and and be open to new experiences that they wouldn’t have normally found. And so that is a lot of what we do. Also it is if you trust us, we trust the people. And it’s a it’s a safe space, and just come and experience it for 45 minutes. And if you don’t like it, you never have to do it again. But maybe it will be your saving grace.
Victoria Volk 27:10
For those listening who are might be thinking, oh my gosh, this speaks to me, I would love to do something like this. But I feel so overwhelmed. Where do I even start and you kind of spoke to how it started for you. But for those who are thinking that this could be something for them right for making purpose out of their pain, a nonprofit, not for profit, things like that. How do you make money, right? Because it’s not for profit, but how do you how does it fund itself? I mean, that might be a big question for that it might have.
Jill Batiansila 27:42
It is and I will tell you I am I am the first to say I do not fundraise well, but we are funded all by donors, all by donors. So and my my executive board and I are working on how do we do that better. But our story entices people to be a part of this. So we’ve got local organizations that want to be a part of this. It’s something that is needed. And it’s something that I think our not just our community, but all communities lack is that support. And so we have recurring donors that we we would love to have more recurring donors, because it’s a small portion, you know, it’s $10 a month, it’s $20 a month, it’s whatever you want. And then we do have some big one time donors who are part of big day of giving, which we’re excited, this is the second year that we get to be a part of big day of giving, which isn’t a day for people to just remember, they’re nonprofits that they have a heart string to, and be a part of that I want people to want to be a part of together, we heal community. Most of our our costs are very low. Our classes that we offer, sometimes they’re free, sometimes they’re $5, our new pick days, generate a little bit of money or wellness retreat, generate a tiny bit, but we really rely on donors who want to be a part of this who who want to put their name on together, we heal community. And I think that’s the neat part about it is you can be the reason why people get help. There are people that that have money to give and they don’t know where to give it or that or they’re not invested because emotionally invested. I think part of that tied together with heal community is I want to be a part of that. That’s something that is not done. And in grief work in general. I’ve had people ask me, Why do you want to do this all the time? Because I’m here in my grief for a short period of time. I don’t want to stay here. So why why are you doing this? Because this is hard work emotionally, too. When people contact Together We Heal community. It’s me. I’m the first person that ever reach. And it’s hard sometimes. And my answer is, that’s because God put this on my heart. So he has enabled me to have this first touch with people. And, and I’m not the endpoint, I’m just the connector. I’m let’s start here together, I won’t leave you, I’m not going to abandon you. Because I think a lot of people have been abandoned in their grief, they’re alone, their family doesn’t want to talk about it. They can’t find that help. Through the mental health world, you know, therapists are booked. So I’m here as yours land, their first landing point, but I’m not your endpoint.
Victoria Volk 30:42
I love that. And I love how you, I just want to highlight something you said and that if someone who’s listening, if this isn’t something that’s maybe meant for you to create an organization such as you did, you can still volunteer for an organization like this and find some purpose and meaning through your own story, but in giving to others, right?
Jill Batiansila 31:06
Yes, I think it is an overwhelming process to think about starting your own nonprofit. But I think where you can start is in your community, find nonprofits that are already doing it, and just just say, I’m here. Let’s start. Let’s start at Ground Zero. But I’m here and I want to give back and and start from there.
Victoria Volk 31:26
Well, here’s the thing I want to highlight too, is that we all have our own unique strengths. And so even if you aren’t sure, like, Well, I’m not really sure what my gift is, or what my what my thing is about me that is, is awesome. I think you’d find that as you start, you know, it’s like follow the cure your curiosity, follow the nudges, if you feel nudged to, you know, check into something, follow that nudge, follow the curiosity that has been placed within you, right?
Jill Batiansila 31:59
Yes. And I think acknowledge that it might be bigger than you if you feel, you know, I am a very strong Christian, and I pray about every single step I’ve made. Am I Is this what you want me to do God? Is this it? And then asking him again? And again, every single step? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Selfishly, or am I doing it for someone else, and I asked myself that, because in the end, it’s not sustainable, if I’m doing it for, for myself, has to be for, for others. If God has given me a heart of service, I need to serve it. It fills my cup to serve others to if it’s just one person. And and I’m finding that on I know, it’s weird that social media has been a catalyst to get more people to what we’re offering, what good is it if you’re offering something and nobody’s taken advantage of it? But but our like, Instagram has been a way of finding people all over the world. You know, I look at my, my insights. And I think, wow, I reached somebody in South Africa today. That’s amazing.
Victoria Volk 33:11
I feel the same way. Even this podcast alone, it’s on every continent. And it’s humbling, because it’s something like just an idea. It starts with an idea. And you never know where it’s gonna take you. Yeah. So through your work, and through your own personal experience, what are some unhelpful and hurtful things that hurt you? deeply as you were working through your grief? And I know you had a therapist throughout your life and tech could help you through those things.
Jill Batiansila 33:40
I would say I’m unapologetic about how I feel I’m an open book. If people don’t like how I feel like, I kind of it doesn’t bother me as much. I have. I have had a lot of family members, say, after a death that we had experienced that they should just get over it. Just get over it. It’s been it’s been long enough. It’s been long enough. Why don’t you Why don’t you just move on? And I think that’s been that’s a trigger for a lot of people. Why are you at this point yet? Why aren’t you at that point yet? You know, I’m fine. I’ve gotten over it. The whole you should get over it. Thinking is is very hurtful. So I would say that’s the biggest trigger is that you’re not where someone thinks that you should be. And again, you don’t owe anybody any explanations as to where you are in your in your journey. And I know Germany is a cliche word but it really is a journey. Its ups and downs. It is you’re fine and then you smell somebody’s perfume and it catapults you back. So I think just being strong in in your your process is important to remember because you will have people that do not understand It is not it is not for you.
Victoria Volk 35:02
I think sometimes to people who because I experienced that as well, you know, especially I think with child Grievers especially, I mean, you’ve we’ve been as children, we’ve carried this our entire lives practically. And so people can easily say, oh, you should be over it by now. I mean, that happened when you were a child, you know. And I think what’s interesting is that, and I, I know this specifically, for myself, I had someone say that to me. And what’s interesting is that person has, that persons who passed away the mutual person has their cologne, in the cupboard, in their bathroom. And I thought, that’s interesting. So you never really know the people that are saying those things really could be judging themselves, I should be over it. So you should be over it too. But I’m not. But I’m going to tell you you should be projecting your pain.
Jill Batiansila 36:02
Exactly. And not everybody knows how to really process that. So just like, like any child with a wound, often that wound becomes a way that you that you hurt others.
Victoria Volk 36:16
And so what has your grief taught you?
Jill Batiansila 36:19
That God has made us resilient beings, I’ve spent a lot of time whoring myself over my grave reading, reading the Bible names, my grief has taught me lean on the Lord, the human beings in our world, whether we’re extremely close to them, or their enemies, because they’ve said things that hurt us, human beings are going to disappoint us. So my grief has taught me trust the Lord, read over his word, lean into Him, and He will guide you. So he has guided me in one of my prayers when God set this on my heart. And I literally know the moment that God set this on my heart. And he said, use your pain for purpose. It’s time. He said, You stay in your lane, I’ll bring the right people at the right time. And that that is very important, I will bring the people to you, at the right time, not in my time. So I think that there is a reason why I it’s taken me this long to start this organization, I have had to and I use this word often with people, sometimes you just have to sit and marinate with it. Marinate in your grief, it’s an awful place to be. But without, without that acknowledgement you’re not going to heal. So he has brought because I’ve leaned on the Lord and, and waited for him. He has brought me it’s a gift. I meet someone new through someone else, the power of networking, the power of networking, but God’s the boss of networking. And I’ll meet someone and after I just kind of sit and think, Well, I could have never done that on my own. Never, I could have never met that person. I cannot believe I just met that person. And look at all the good we’re gonna do together. He this person is going to make my organization better.
Victoria Volk 38:30
I love that. I love how you said that. God is the boss of networking. That might be your quotable for this episode. I love it. So let me ask you this, what has what have you learned about yourself? In starting Together We Heal community.
Jill Batiansila 38:49
I will say this. I have been dreaming about this wellness retreat out the farm for probably three and a half years. And last summer. I told my people, all of my volunteers, all of the people that are involved in Together We Heal community. I said we’re gonna make this happen this year. And we threw together together in about three months. And afterwards, one of one of the facilitators came up to me and she said, you know, I’ll be honest, I penciled this in because I thought there’s no way but what I learned is, oh, Jill’s doing it. This is gonna happen. And so I have a lot more confidence in myself that if I follow God’s lead, and do the things that he’s telling me to do, I will not fail. It is I just know God God and I prayed about this. And God said do this, though. I know he’s gonna make it happen. And and so I have learned that I can get a lot accomplished. I am squirrel, I am self proclaimed ADHD child, but I can get a lot done. And a lot of that is because has got an idea that together, God brought in the people, God, God, God brought in the donors. And so God’s leading this. So I, this is this is happening. So not doubt myself, do not I don’t doubt myself.
Victoria Volk 40:15
And that’s great advice for others as well.
Jill Batiansila 40:19
I hope so,
Victoria Volk 40:20
Is there anything else about Together We Heal community or your story, anything we didn’t get a chance to share that you would like to add?
Jill Batiansila 40:32
Well, since we’re on the topic of starting nonprofits, you know, one of my pieces of advice is you can have big goals, but you need to start small. Don’t overwhelm yourself with the end result, start with what you have. First, you can have your five year goals seven year goal and know that that goal will change. When I first started this, I thought it was going to be all for children, because I was a childhood Griever. And so that’s my soft spot is how do we help children that that are needing help, but maybe their parents or guardians don’t know how to get them that help? So I first thought everything I was going to do was just for kids. And, and that now that’s something that I look back at and think oh, well, we didn’t do that at all. Are we going to do that next? Are we so start small, God will bring the right people into place when it’s time. But you start start with what you what you can do at the moment. The flowers started with, I asked the farmer, Hey, can I grow some flowers, I’m not even really sure why. But I just want to, and he said sure. And I threw a hose down a 300 foot row and I grew flowers and weeds. And I picked them myself. And I arranged them and I gave them to my neighbors and my friends and just thought I don’t know what I’m doing. But let’s do this. And now last year, we had over 1600 feet of flowers. We gave away 650 jars ish more, and no idea was going to be doing that. So it’ll be open. But start small.
Victoria Volk 42:17
I want to share something you said just kind of piggyback it because even though you haven’t, your services and what you’ve done haven’t like tailored to children, I think the biggest impact that we can have on children and their grief is as adults, we learn how to process our own. And we we actually do work on our own stuff. Because in doing so we become better parents, we become better individuals in the community. We know how to better support children in their grief, we learn through our own processing, how to better support children, I think really, truly I mean, it starts in the home. And so as if you’re, I can just attest to myself, and maybe you can too is I was a raging mom, because I had a lot of unprocessed grief and a lot of unprocessed anger. And as you become a parent, it brings up all of your insecurities. So to starting a business, right? And I’m sure that starting this nonprofit, it brings up everything, it’s so confronting. And you have no choice but to deal with it or become this. It brings out aspects of you that you are proud of.
Jill Batiansila 43:35
Yes. And, again, I’m a parent of two, oh my goodness, let your children see you cry. Let your children see you be broken. I think that’s important. Now you don’t need to be a hot mess. 24/7 But I think it’s important for them to see you be Human Being human means you’re going to hurt. That expectation that everything’s going to always be okay is not realistic. So how do I show my kids how I’ve coped with with the pains of life. So be open. Don’t be afraid to have those conversations with your kids. Let them see you cry. Oh my goodness. Let them see you cry and let them see you. Work through your struggles and have an open dialogue with them. You know, by him. I’m always telling my kids, if you need, you know, it can be messy. Tell me what’s on your mind. I sit with them. My husband and I pray with them. We have devotions. You know life is raw. And I think it’s important for our kids to see us in that raw mode. You cannot protect your children from pain. You can’t protect yourself from pain, but we need to talk about it. We need to have an open dialogue and it’s ugly.
Victoria Volk 44:54
And we can become better equipped. Absolutely. There are there is knowledge out there. or pick up the book, The Grief Recovery handbook? For starters. I need that book. Yeah, understand grief itself, because as we’ve talked about at the beginning of this episode, which is this is a great way to tie it up is that we simply do not know what to do with it. And so as an adult, if you are angry, and you have a child who is expressing anger on a consistent basis, there are only a mirror. Yes, there are only being a mirror. Don’t be surprised, then when your child is angry if you are an angry parent, and there is the grief that is unprocessed there.
Jill Batiansila 45:37
I think it’s also important to tell them tell children that just because I am dealing with it this way, maybe what sounds what sounds good to you to start, what are you comfortable with starting, you know, I always talk about possibly starting a journal or doing art therapy, let’s get color crayons, depending on their ages. Let’s just get out. But everybody does process grief differently. And that’s important for them to know, hey, I, this is how I deal with grief. And, and but it might not be how you’re most comfortable with dealing with it. So what what do you feel like doing? You know, and and, you know, there, there are lots of ways to word it, because everybody has a different personality and you knew your children best but, but it’s important to know to, for them to find their own unique way that they can process their grief, or their stress or the anxiety. You know, that’s that’s all big, big words right now is anxiety. We’re all having a little bit of that.
Victoria Volk 46:36
And it’s grief.
Jill Batiansila 46:38
And the loss of the loss of that you can you know, walk out the door and expect certain things that’s no longer there.
Victoria Volk 46:46
Yeah, loss of hopes, dreams and expectations and anything we wish would be different, better or more is grave. Yes. So thank you so much for being here and for the work that you’re doing and in your community and the information that you’re sharing and your gift of creating purpose from your pain. Thank you so much.
Jill Batiansila 47:07
Thank you for letting me share.
Victoria Volk 47:09
And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Addiction, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Kevin Boon | The Masks We Wear
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
When you fill out your calendar, do you intentionally set time aside to reflect and for introspection? Probably not. Most of us don’t do so. However, as Kevin shares in this episode, doing so for his grief has made all of the difference in his life.
Kevin speaks to the cumulative losses of his career, his father, his mother, and subsequent divorce. He also shares the impact of having a small nuclear family and missing out on a larger, extended family community growing up.
We often don’t think about how our nuclear family of origin impacts our grief. However, it has everything to do with how we respond to it. Kevin grew up, as many of us do, unable to express his grief. As a result, it manifested in different ways. That is until he discovered the work of Grief Recovery. Kevin shares his experience working with me, addressing his grief through my program Do Grief Differently.
Learn through our conversation how, as a male and someone who has experienced various losses, it is possible to recover from all of the emotions that make up grief; anger, sadness, bitterness, and everything in between.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Kevin Boon. He has worked the first 20 years of his career in the technology industry, and for the past 10 years has coached and consulted with startup entrepreneurs, and small to medium-sized businesses. He has a degree in economics, interest in history, politics, and has been interested in what it takes for economies and communities and for people to thrive. Thank you so much for being my guest, Kevin, also a Grief Recovery client of mine. Very interested in you sharing your experience with that at some point when it fits into your story, but let’s get started on really what brings you to grieving voices?
Kevin Boon 0:50
Well, I think that it takes me back, I think, to when I first kind of discovered you I was you know, I was going through some challenges in my life, I had, you know, had some career, I went through a job loss, I had my parents that had both kind of passed and went through kind of like what I would call, you know, I don’t know, health challenges that lasted for quite a few years. So there was just that part where there was just a lot of ongoing challenges with that I had a job that was stressful, and then eventually that job ended. And then within boat, you know, within about a year after my mom dying, my relationship ended. And so it was, for me, it was the three areas where basically, I had meaning in life. And within just a very short time window does work on. And so, and I knew I was grieving, I was, you know, working through and trying, you know, different methods and looking at different ways to support myself, but I was in a pretty, you know, tough state, it was a it was a really, really tough time to for going through that. And so I found you on I think it was what’s the guy? It’s it was a YouTube interview that you did with I think it was Brian Edwards. And, and it was just the topic was grief. And and what you said in those conversations, were just some things that just kind of said, Ah, there it is. That’s, you know, those are pieces and spoke to me, that was basically what it was. So I knew that I just, you know, I needed to reach out. And we did and we did did some work together, which was great. So so that was kind of that was my experience, you know, going through just the loss of those really important things in my life.
Victoria Volk 2:53
Would you say it was a dark night of the soul?
Kevin Boon 2:57
It was the dark night of my soul? Yeah, absolutely. And it was, you know, one of the things that you are one of the things I know that in the grief work that you do. You know, it says that, you know, grief is cumulative. And what that means to me is that you know if you have stressful experiences, if you have experiences that give you heartache Oh in your life, and if you don’t deal with those in some ways at the time, then they build. And what I realized, I virtually had like what I call a lifetime of working really hard and jobs always being on the go productive than trying to show up in a family trying to show up with my parents and a whole bunch of different things. A lot of times there were just things that would come up that would just never get resolved stead of going and sitting down and having a drink or eating food or watching TV. That was the way of tuning out. And I think that hit had been really hard to do what I call the introspection and this is what I think this worked help me to do a little bit of.
Victoria Volk 4:00
It’s like having a scab, right, this really gaping wound that scabs over, then you find yourself like picking at it in these moments of frustration or anger and it never resolves, right? It just always is a gaping wound, it’s always an unhealed wound and we go to the doctor when we have a broken arm or broken leg. But I think society is maybe getting better about going to a professional when they have a broken heart. But yeah, your progression of going through the program and seeing where you started and then seeing where you landed at the end. It was beautiful to be witness to that and you just see people and I saw you just get lighter and lighter like you just you carry yourself different you show up differently. Did you feel that way in your life and relationships and connections with other people and
Kevin Boon 4:54
Yeah, it definitely was something we’re at the end of that I came out lighter. And I was carrying, I would say a lot of unresolved grief with my mother. You know, it was interesting because my mother died in, you know, 2018. And I remember just kind of, and I was we, you know, the whole family, we were with her in palliative care when she passed, you know, it was trying to, you know, kind of be there. But I was almost like, in this place where I was feeling numb. You know, I didn’t know what the emotions were like, I couldn’t cry. I couldn’t, you know, I couldn’t let this go. I think when I went through the grief work, especially around my mother, that was where the tears started to flow. And I thought, holy smokes, this is, you know, this is deep stuff, and it just started to get me into this place is like, Oh, okay. You know, like, just these little pockets, where it was like, Oh, my God, this happened. And this is how I felt. And sometimes it’s not even so much about what somebody does, it’s, it’s about just the feelings that you it’s, it’s even their state of mind, you know, my mother would be in a place where she, a lot of times was worried, or she was anxious, or she was depressed herself. Like she, you know, she had moved from England, you know, you know, and kind of lost that connection with her family. And I think she was going through her own grief, I realized so much around how, especially when I was little, some of them were memories that I had, but some of them were not memories, you know, they were, they were just things that I go, Oh, my God, I just felt intuitively into this place. And it’s like, all there it is, you know, and it’s and so, so I think that the work of your work helped me to open up to some of these bigger windows of things that maybe I hadn’t paid attention to. before so.
Victoria Volk 6:53
Yeah, and what I hear and you saying that, and what, you know, when you went through the process, it brings the importance of understanding how important our environment is into our development. And like, you spoke to your mom’s own stuff she was experiencing and going through, and like, let’s say a family has a dog, but everybody in the family is kind of anxious, you know, they’re just kind of like, unsettled within themselves and just kind of anxious family maybe even angry. Yeah, you often see that reflected in their dog, you know, there’ll be an aggressive dog or a really scared dog. I actually had that purse, I just comes to my mind. Now we had tried to adopt it, we adopted a dog poodle, which isn’t kind of a nervous dog anyway, but my children were young, and this dog just did not that nervous energy, and the energy of the children. It was too much for this dog, and he did not adapt well to our family. Right. Gave him to a retired couple. He was like a completely different dog. Yes. And I think just as dogs respond to their environment, in either in how they behave and react, so do we as children growing up in that environment. So if it’s, if they’re if you’re in an environment that’s really angry, and there’s a lot of fighting, and there’s a you know, lack of stability, emotional stability, yeah, might be someone who has trouble coping and managing your own emotions as you get older. Right. It’s, this is why we say adulthood is childhood reenactments. And so I just wanted to highlight that, it doesn’t mean you’re crazy as a Griever. That’s where people kind of get stuck in feeling like it’s all them. We’re all products of our environments and our experiences. So thank you for highlighting that and mentioning that.
Kevin Boon 8:49
Yeah, absolutely. And I would add something really important. It’s, you know, as I went through looking at my childhood, my parents immigrated, like I said, from England, they came to Canada when I was like four months old, like I was a baby in arms, coming to Canada, and then we lived in Canada for four years. We went to Australia for four years. But what we were we were that typical nuclear family, you know, so, in my family back in England, you know, there was uncles and aunts and grandparents, like if I was in that environment back there, you know, we would have gone weekends over to visit the grandparents or visit the uncles or you know, kind of do things with this wider audience and what I realized as I started looking at my own and I caught my grief journey was just living in the nuclear world. Where are this little nuclear niche where it’s your mom and dad are your primary caregivers. That’s not a lot of that’s just a pretty narrow perception of the types of personalities that are out there. And it just so happened that my mother you know, was you know, somebody who worried a lot something. He had a lot of anxiety, she was, you know, lonely, depressed, like, in her own way to pick that up, like, it was like, you know, I’m intuitive like I’m, I’m empathic, I know that I am that, you know, and as a child, she was the person who I spent like 80% of my time with. And then my dad on the other end was, he was always like working at jobs and always busy. But I knew that you know, money and survival were part of their, you know, their, their modus operandi type of thing they were, that’s where they operated from. And so what I’ve discovered for my own journey is that, number one, how much of a loss it was to not have that wider circle of influence. Like even mentors, when I think about my life growing up, like, I don’t think I really ever had what I would call a mentor, until I got into like adulthood in my 30s or 40s. Like, like, like to not have, like, you know, when kids like, you know, they say that when a child thrives at some level, there’s somebody that they meet along the way, that says, hey, you know, they, they pay attention to them. They say, you know, what, you’ve got this skill here, or you can do this, or they have a different perception. And I realized in my life, that part of my grieving was the grief that I didn’t have that bigger, expanded network of people within my community, if you will, or tribe, whatever you want to call it. You know,
Victoria Volk 11:30
Don’t you find that interesting that what you do now, and what you’re interested in is all about community. And, you know, it’s like you’re looking to build something that you didn’t have, right? You’re looking to support something you didn’t have? And I, yeah, I think our passions generally do come from our pain.
Kevin Boon 11:54
Oh big time. And, you know, it’s, it’s interesting, because I’m a big fan of Gabor Ma Tei. And Gordon Neufeld, they have a book and it’s called, I’ve actually got it here, it’s called hold on to your kids. And the whole premise of this book describes the fact that as a culture, you know, for the last two or three generations, and going back to the baby boomers like this goes back to the baby boomers, but what they say is that we have a culture, where children at a very young age, lose their family attachment, and they become peer attached. So they become attached to their friends and schools, or if you put a knife pad in front of them, they become attached to people online, whatever it is, and that peer attachment is crippling our self-esteem, you know, that’s part of the message. And I and I look at that, and I and so this is where my interest in kind of like being able to present this stuff and to talk about some of these ideas because this is a big challenge. It’s, you know, in any ways, for me, it’s not just me, you know, I have my own unique experience of this. But there’s a bigger expanded challenge that we face in society, with the fact that, you know, most kids today are becoming pure attached at a very young age. And the whole society teaches us to, you know, that, Oh, you know, we got to go to school, you got to go to preschool, well, you got to go to pre, preschool, whatever it is, and we get kids out of the house, and they’re in this peer attached world, which is not as reliable now, if they go at home to their family, and their parents are stressed because they’re, they’ve got jobs that are busy, and they’re running around all the time, then it’s also hard for them to get the family attachment. So there’s a bunch of things where sometimes we’re just not able to slow down as a society. And so you know, what does a child need? You know, and what does a child need? You know, a child needs a gabber Mati and others talk about they need attachment. And they need authenticity. So it’s a place where they can be themselves, they can be true to themselves, they don’t have to try to fit in and get marks in school, they can be themselves what is, you know, what is that true essence of self. So that’s been my search. And the grief work is a really important part to that. So that’s, yeah, interesting.
Victoria Volk 14:30
Two words that come to my mind when you’re talking about that, you know, the attachments, you know, peer attachment and family attachment is add in like adding a grief event right, like a traumatic loss or a really challenging time or a mental health challenge with a family member or parent or a child. All of these other components of life that happen that are unfavorable to us, and how do you cope? You know, it’s so we all have different ways. is that we do that that are unhealthy. Usually, that’s so I think we’re speaking to is all these different threads that kind of really just create this tapestry of really what’s needed as is balanced to. And I thought of to when you were talking about with the peers, it’s really about teaching our kids and to, it really matters who you surround yourself with, not just as an adult and emulating that. But as a child, like how do you how do you help children discern who is going to be that peer, that is going to uplift you and inspire and encourage and, and really, truly be a friend? You know? Yes. And a role model? In as what a friend really is?
Kevin Boon 15:49
Yes, it’s the healthy relationships, right? Because, you know, we can talk family attachments, but if you’re, you know, if your parents are abusive, or neglectful, or they’re stressed, whatever it is, you’re going to struggle within that environment. And I think it’s people I don’t know, it’s people like Oprah, I think I remember for her, you know, she had a challenging childhood. But she had, you know, people along the way that just, you know, were there that paid attention to her and inspired her, you know, things along that lines. And I think that that’s the part that it’s really important, I think, for society to figure out how do we find that place where a child’s going to attach to create a connection, where they go, oh, you know, I’m important, you know, and, and this gets into, like, I think some of the bigger challenges we’re having in our society right now, where I think that people have, you know, we try so much in our technology world, to try to have like, you know, the, the one, you know, the one app that’s going to solve all our problems, or the, you know, the special thing that if we can talk to a million people, then you know, people are going to be saved, whatever it is, through through whatever, whatever this method that we’re teaching, but the reality is, sometimes I think that people just, you know, we need to have that personal connection, that personal interaction and as children, that that’s about attention, somebody’s paying attention to you in a in a real positive and in an uplifting way that that pays attention. You know, that’s, that’s so, so important.
Victoria Volk 17:27
And that’s the Grief Recovery experience. Right?
Kevin Boon 17:29
Totally, totally. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 17:31
It really is, you feel heard for the first time. And oftentimes, that’s what many clients have said is, I felt like I had a place where someone really, truly understood and where I could really, in a safe space, you know, dig into that.
Kevin Boon 17:46
Yeah, more fully. And I realized, I realized, as I was going through my experiences, I realized that it was really hard to be able to have somebody here, you know, and, you know, and so, you know, and I don’t know, trying to be vulnerable, and just saying, Hey, I’m feeling this right now. It’s like, there was a period of time where it was nobody, no one was really interested in having that conversation with me. You know, and, and if anything, you know, as a man, I would look weak, you know, that was it, if I, if I, and I think that this is this, you know, this is the part that I found that the majority not I don’t know, if it’s, I don’t even know what the percentage is. But a lot of people do not have an ability to talk and be with somebody in grief. I don’t know. And I don’t know why that is, I think our society has kind of tried to focus, you know, we focus on the material world, we focus on the world outside of us, getting things done productivity, having jobs, doing all this stuff. But we, we don’t pay attention to the inner world, I think most of us are so out outward, focused in terms of what we what we do, you know, and as a result, we neglect things like a grieving experience, you know, we don’t give ourselves time.
Victoria Volk 19:11
I believe that there would be a really good percentage, I don’t know what it is, but I’m just speculating here of a male in your situation, who essentially lost everything, lost your marriage, lost your parents, your mom and all this in a short amount of time you had you moved a lot of change in a short amount of time, your career, a lot of men would have probably contemplated suicide. Oh, had that ever crossed your mind?
Kevin Boon 19:38
It’s you know what, there were times when I thought, You know what, I just don’t know if this is going to be, you know, if I’m going to be able to do this, and I think I knew well enough, though, that there were people that I loved and people that I cared about. And I thought that if I did that, it would be hard experience for them. And so I think I was able to connect to that in at least a certain way. I, you know, I do have a friend from my university days who committed suicide. And he, you know, he had gone through something similar, he had lost his relationship. And he was a family guy. He wanted to be that family like that, that was so important for him. And I know that he kind of just, you know, he kind of just bandied around for about four or five years. And then I don’t know, and I heard the news, kind of, like, after the fact that wasn’t in touch with him, because it was kind of like, you know, 20 years after we had graduated, so to speak. But, but it was sad, you know, and the other challenge is, is that when he passed, very few people talked about that, you know, the suicide or why he did it, or anything it was, it was talking about his memory, good guy, all that kind of stuff, and, you know, kind of celebrating that, but nobody wanted to go to that place as to you know, why he might have done that? Or even to have that discussion, you know, so I do you know, to answer that question, I had thought about it, but at the same time, I never lean that way. Let’s just put it like that. I just, I think I thought you know what, no, I know, I can’t do that. So what I did instead, to take myself outside of that realm was I realized that I have to create some sort of purpose for myself. Because and what I did was I developed purpose in what I called ritual. And ritual for me was around walking. And so that was an ability where I just started, I made a commitment, you know, I’m going to walk an hour and a half to two hours every day. And in that time, I’m going and I’m going to disconnect from electronics, you know, so it’s not listening to an iPad, or a podcast episode or something like that. It was about disconnecting, and just going into ritual, so calling in whatever it was just, you know, to be able to reflect, to work through things so,
Victoria Volk 22:11
That’s an amazing tip. And it’s connecting to the present moment and to nature to at the same time.
Kevin Boon 22:17
Yeah, absolutely. And it was interesting, because I did that for when I when my marriage first ended, and I moved out of my house, that was what became my ritual for the first year and a half, after moving out, it was something that was really important. And then I did lose connection to that for a little while. And then I’ve I’ve moved recently, and I would say that within the last month or so I’ve actually really taken that up again, but I find the ritual piece and the intention. And things like that are just a really are a really important part to finding a way to bring yourself into being centered so,
Victoria Volk 23:01
Intention is huge. I will I will agree with that. Yes, intention is huge into anything that we do, you know, even if before you go into a difficult conversation with someone, you know, thinking about your intention, like what do you want to bring? You know, do you want to bring anger and bitterness and resentment to this conversation? Or do you want to bring compassion and open ears and, you know, that are open to listening and honoring the other person to and their feelings? I don’t know, what made me say that or what came, but I felt like I needed to say that, but intention is huge. In a lot in most situations.
Kevin Boon 23:36
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that I noticed, and I and I agree with you on all of that, it’s, it’s the people my age, right? So I’m in my mid to late 50s. You know, I’ve been around for a while, right? Like, my, my, I’ve got history, right? And it’s like, when I think back about that whole grief thing about being cumulative, you know, and I think people that I know my age, like when you’ve had 50, some odd years to kind of like not process your stuff, then either you’re going to do one or two things, you’re going to be on medication, you know, you’re going to either, you know, soothe yourself with alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, or, or whatever, you know, watching TV, whatever the like zoning out. And I think that, you know, part of, and I feel that we have a lot of people that are in that place, you know, that’s where they live, you know, they live in the world of either addictions, or zoning out or whatever it is, or you know, they’re on prescription medications, and I just really didn’t want to go that route. And I think the worst case scenario that happens for that is that I think that as my dad got older, he went through and had dementia cysts symptoms, you know, and I think what happens there’s a certain period where your cognitive abilities kind of shut down or whatever it is, or they change you’re not able to quite do it and if and if the grief has kind of accumulated over your lifetime With the trauma that you’ve experienced, and you haven’t processed it, I don’t know what the stats talk about. But I’m a big believer that things like dementia, or things like around are caused by unresolved grief, or that’s my opinion anyway, just based on what I’ve what I see with it, when I look at the work you do, and especially the work when you do it one on one or in small groups, but you and I’ve done the work together one on one, it’s like, it’s something that we need to just have a bigger, a bigger awareness, like a bigger availability for because I think that a lot of people are looking to be heard, but they’re not there was an article and I’ll just share it in Canadian in one of the Canadian news things, and it just said that there’s a crisis in mental health in Canada. And they were just talking about, you know, with COVID, with all the, you know, the challenges that we’ve had the last few years that there’s a crisis in mental health, and they said that the biggest challenge is the fact that people can’t really get access to help they need. And therapy is, you know, people usually there’s waiting lists, and what ends up happening as either people are put on medication, or they don’t get treatment. And that’s a huge challenge that we have societally.
Victoria Volk 26:13
I think there were always mental health challenges. I just think that during COVID, for a lot of people, I believe it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, you know, it was like this one last straw for a lot of people, but I think we’ve always had it just, you know, as a society, I think it just kind of turn a blind eye to it. And it’s not me, it’s not happening to me, it’s Nobody I know. So, you know, yeah, that mindset.
Kevin Boon 26:43
Yeah, definitely. Well, and I think the other thing, too, today that accentuates it is technology, right? And, you know, the, I don’t know, if you’ve ever, if you’ve watched the movie, the social dilemma, or the, you know, looked at some of the work that there’s a center for humane technology, that kind of, it’s the organization that came out of the movie, the social dilemma, it’s run by Tristan Harris. And they actually have on their website, they actually have eight specific areas where technology does harm, and most of them are in the areas of mental health. So it’s designed to maximize our screen time, you know, our phones are built on like a little gambling casino, where we’ve got little buttons that give us rewards, and we’ve got, you know, things that we’re striving for, like likes, or you know, whatever it is, and, and it’s like a casino, you know, it’s, it’s, we’ve, we’ve built this mentality, and yet, and then we give that to kids when they’re young, right, or even in their teens, like it’s, and I think those are the things that are kind of probably magnifying it, that a level that we you know, that’s that’s adding another layer to what has already been there, like you said, it’s always been there.
Victoria Volk 27:57
So you’ve shared a few tips throughout in different insights, what is the best piece of advice you ever received, during your time dealing with when you had your dark night of the soul or when you were really struggling, the best piece of advice you received, or perhaps what you would share with people now, after you’ve gone through kind of addressing your grief.
Kevin Boon 28:22
I think it’s, you know, it comes down to what the Grief Recovery Method does. Or what you do within your work is it’s having a listener, you if you carry grief, or if you carry trauma, or if there’s anxiety, whatever you’re going through, it’s really important to have, you know, one, two, or two or three people, three or four people in your circle that can be listeners. And so when we did our work together, you were a listener throughout some of that, I have my sister who I’m well connected to, she’s a listener, like we work, you know, we and she understands me, so to speak, you know, which is really, really cool, right? And, and then I have one or two other friends, in particular male friends, who I’m able to have the conversation with i One of the things that I had also done was I joined a men’s group when I went through some of these challenges, and I found that the men’s group allowed me to give voice to what I was feeling and what I was going through. And interestingly enough, I really discovered that most men struggle with this stuff. It’s not just me again, it’s and for men more than ever, you are more than more than women, probably they have a harder time verbalizing it or getting it out. You know? So to have that space has been really, really important to.
Victoria Volk 29:51
Yeah, we just don’t have the language. We don’t have the language and I’ll put it in the show notes. But I recently came across something it’s called the emotional wheel. And it’s really expressive words of how you feel right? But it gives you more language. Yes, you can get in order to really, it’s like, yeah, I might be sad, but it’s not just sad. It’s what’s deeper than that, you know, there could be bitterness there too, could be anger, it could be frustration. Grief is so much more than just, it embodies all of it, and even joy. Even joy.
Kevin Boon 30:26
Yeah, definitely. It was interesting. I was having a conversation with a gentleman the other day, and, and he works, you know, hard. He’s, he’s about my age, and he works at a job he’s does management, he’s just works very hard at his work, right. And he’s, he gets up early in the morning, he’s, you know, works long days, he’s got to manage teams. And we’ve just talked about over the time, but the thing that he said to me was, he says, you know, he, and it was just because I shared my story with him, he opened up to me and started to share that, you know, he’s been going through depression challenges, and he’s been seeing a therapist and trying to kind of connect to what that is, and, and again, on the outside, you know, you’d see this person and you say, Wow, they’ve got it all together, right? They’ve, they’re doing great, you know, they’ve got a great job, they’re, you know, they’re, they’ve got a nice home, all that kind of good stuff. But there’s just something there that, you know, that if it wouldn’t have been, let’s say, where I started that conversation at some level, that would have probably not come out, you know, in normal circumstances,
Victoria Volk 31:32
Right? You went first. And sometimes I think that’s what we need to do is go first to give other people permission, that it’s okay to share. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So what has your grief taught you?
Kevin Boon 31:44
I don’t know, my grief, my grief has taught me, it’s taught me that all aspects of me are important, not just the surface aspect in the corporate world, right. You know, they, you know, I used to have, and I used to, I heard the catch term corporate speak, you know, and you speak, corporate speak. And it’s like, you know, while we’re doing this, and we’re doing all this great stuff, and you see it in great marketing language, and you present this image to the world that wow, things are just shiny and rosy. And, you know, what a great place, you know, and all that stuff. But what Greif taught me is that, you know, there’s, there’s two worlds, and both worlds are important. In fact, the the world around our emotions, in our psyche, is probably the most important world. And because that’s the world that if we do well within that place, then it impacts how we do in our other parts of our life. But when we neglect that world, to focus on some sort of an image, or mask, or whatever it is that we were, you know, the Eleanor Rigby song right, Paul McCartney, or the Beatles, were they saying, you know, putting your mask at the face in a jar by the door, right? So it was like, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that song where they go through that, that, that thing, but it’s all about this idea that, okay, I’m, I’m in my home right now. I’m feeling a certain way. But now I’m gonna go out into the world, I’m gonna put this mask on. And I think for the longest time, that was what I did in the world. And what I didn’t realize what I didn’t know that how much hurt and how much grief and how much was unresolved in there. So grief has taught me that I’m much bigger, and much more whole than I than I ever imagined that I was, let’s say, you know? So it’s important. You know, it’s that. And when you talked about the idea of joy, right, and being able to connect to both, you know, the grief, emotions, but also the positive emotions. I think there’s positive emotions that come from grief, when you’re able to really sit with it for a period of time and let it out. It can. It can make room where that all There you go, that is such a relief. I’ve gotten that off my chest. And let me just sit in that. And then oh, like, it’s like thinking about, let’s say, my experience with my mother, you know what I loved and cared deeply about my mother, and that love and care needed to come out. But it couldn’t come out until I let go with a grief. I don’t know if that makes sense. But,
Victoria Volk 34:31
Yeah, it’s like, days and days of clouds and rain and no sun, and then all of a sudden, the sun comes out, right? Yeah. And it’s this beautiful thing, and you bask in it, and you feel warmth, and joy and lightness. And yeah, I totally get it.
Kevin Boon 34:48
Yeah, for sure. So that was a bit long-winded, but hopefully answered that question.
Victoria Volk 34:55
No, I was it was a good beautiful answer, actually. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t get a chance to?
Kevin Boon 35:01
Yeah, I would like to just say one thing. It’s, you know, my parents as they went through their life, I think one of the biggest challenges that they had was economic uncertainty. And the other passion that I have in being able to kind of bring to light in the work that I’m doing now is to really talk about how we build economies, where we were, as a society, we start to take people out of this mindset of having to live in economic survival, because I feel that when people are focused on economic survival, that that creates trauma, it creates grief in its own way, it creates the ability where, you know, we don’t pay attention to children, things along that lines, and when we build structures within societies that kind of, you know, make it hard for people to be successful. Like, I don’t know, I think in the US, right, we talk about the fact that the gig economy has emerged, right? Like, you know, and people are going out, and they’re working multiple jobs, a lot of times at minimum wage, right. And, and it’s, it’s hard for them, it’s, they call it the decline or the stagnation of the middle classes. And I think that these are big, big challenges in a culture that just add to our collective trauma, it adds to our grief. And it means that we stay stuck as a society. So for me, my philosophy is that, you know, not only do we want to work with people to help them help their individual lives and work through the challenges that they have, but there’s a collective thing that we can do, from systems, you know, in terms of how we build economic systems, and things along that lines that can really help to, to just change, to change the experience, like we live in such a technology-rich world, that abundance abounds, and phenomenal levels, right? And yet we hoard wealth, we and or we create rules around it that you know, that it’s kind of like you know that people get stuck. And so when we’re trying to live to a material world, we’re getting stuck in our ability to really be able to just enjoy and connect to our true selves as the authentic self, if you will. So,
Victoria Volk 37:28
Two thoughts come to my mind, as I hear you talking about that just the economic impact, right of all that you shared, there is an economic impact to grief. It’s huge. The Grief Recovery Institute did a study on this. It’s the grief index study the company empathy, which is an app for Grievers, they released publication regarding economic repercussions of grief as well. And so I’ll put that in the show notes as well as where people can find that. Yeah, I just Yeah, exactly what you what you share, there is an economic impact, definitely on as a whole, right, as a whole.
Kevin Boon 38:11
Yeah, definitely. There’s, there’s another index, that’s, you know, that you might be interested into kind of connect the dots. But in the US, it’s called the job quality index. And this is it’s I don’t know if you just research or just Google job quality index, but they, they describe the fact that within the last 40 years in America, that jobs have basically transitioned from were like back in the early 70s. You know, I forget what it was like, but like, it was like, the majority were either medium, medium to high paying jobs, like over 70%, something like that. And today, the, amount of low-paying jobs has actually gone to over 60% and those of transition from manufacturing to the services economy. So America used to manufacture most of their stuff, you know, people used to live comfortable middle-class lives, a lot of those jobs changed or went away. And today we work in service jobs, you know, that pay much lower. And in those impacts like this is this is why I think that the grief part for me, from my own personal experiences has been my foundation that says, Okay, this is where we need to look at economics, this is where we need to look at technology, this is where we need to look at the outputs of what we bring into the world. And so to build thriving economies, you know, and you see it like in some economies like in Europe and other places where they have, you know, a decent middle class where they’ve got a good social safety net, you know, things along that lines where people live comfortable lives. Whereas I think in some of our cultures and America is probably one of them, but we neglect that, you know, just the fact that, you know, a woman who’s pregnant that gives birth to a baby has to go back to work in like three weeks or whatever it is like, you know, to have a real maternity option or a paternity option for people to spend time in those important attachment, important attachment years with children is so critical, you know, in our society. So I, my belief is that it has to happen from two levels healing. Number one is each one of us has an individual responsibility for ourselves. But I think on the other end, there’s a collective responsibility that we can start to do to build systems that create more prosperity. And frankly, that’s the essence of just the podcast that I’m in the process of launching, to be able to bring those topics to light. So,
Victoria Volk 40:53
Sounds wonderful. Yeah, I think that’s a good topic. Yeah. Awesome. Well, where can people find you if they’re interested in what you’re doing and learning more about you?
Kevin Boon 41:05
Yeah. So right now, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. So it’s my it’s, it’s K Boon, I think it’s our @kboon on LinkedIn. And then I’m going to be launching my podcast, standing in both worlds is the name of the podcast. And you’ll be able to find that on most places where you get your podcasts. So that should be live in the next month or so.
Victoria Volk 41:33
Amazing. Now, at the time of this recording, it’s going to be several months until your podcast actually goes Yes. But that will be put in the show notes by the time people listen, and where they can connect with you. And I also want to add that, if you are interested in going through the process that Kevin did, which inspired me, actually, you and several other clients I took through the program, I’ve expanded on it. And it’s now called do grief differently. And it’s a 12-week program that combines both the Grief Recovery method as it is because it’s brilliant as it is, along with another program called Youmap. And so I bring those two together, because, like in your experience, when you’ve lost everything, and you ask yourself, you know, you go through the grief experience of working through your stuff in which is a continual process. It’s always a continual process. Once you learn the tools, you always have them but then you ask yourself, well, what now? And so Youmap is like your guide your Northstar in doing that. And so if you’re interested in that, I will put the link in the show notes for that as well. In the meantime, I hope you come back and listen again. And remember when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Chronic Illness, Death/Dying, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Podcast |
Genesis Amaris Kemp | Caregiving, Covid, and Corporate Grief
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. Every loss we experience stacks on top of those before it. For Genesis Amaris Kemp, attending funerals started becoming a regular occurrence. Add the loss of loved ones before the Covid pandemic (and during) to the loss of a job during the same timeframe, and it can be challenging to find solid footing. Additionally, learning, for the first time, how to advocate for a parent in the healthcare system posed its challenges during this same period.
Genesis’s father walked into a hospital with elevated blood sugar. Three days later, he was paralyzed from the waist down, which was later identified to have occurred from a stroke. Additionally, he endured several other complications during his hospital stay that later caused a quick decline in health and, soon after, his death.
Trying to be a caregiver during Covid proved to show the disparity and gaps in the healthcare system. In addition to the losses she endured during the pandemic, she also was laid off from her corporate job in oil and gas. Genesis shares her experience of being a young black woman in a predominantly older white demographic of employment, describing that experience and sharing how one conversation with the company VP, and the experience as a whole, was empowering, heartbreaking, and eye-opening all at the same time.
The Covid Pandemic showed us where we have a lot of work and repair to do within the healthcare system and how we live and work as a society. Genesis shares the lessons she learned during this timeframe and how she’s become impassioned in serving others with what she’s learned.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Genesis Amaris Kemp and she is a visionary life coach, motivational speaker and author. She’s also a firecracker and a mindset hacker and a force to be reckoned with. I love that. Genesis is a woman that empowers others to speak up for themselves. Yes, it may be challenging, yes, it may hurt. But in the long run, she desires to encourage others to help those who may not have a voice. She’s a trailblazer, who wants others to live out their dreams, goals and visions. We all have been given an excellent purpose in life, it is up to us to walk it out and live, live victoriously. She is multifaceted and multi-dimensional, that cannot be contained in a box, or carp compartmentalized, I love that. Love that bio, that was fun to read. Thank you for so much for that.
Genesis Amaris Kemp 0:52
My pleasure, Victoria. And thank you so much for having me on your platform. It is attained. So our roles are reversed since I had you on my show.
Victoria Volk 1:04
Yeah. And I think we have a lot of the same values and like mission in life. And you know, you just want people to open up to their own potential, right, and to live into that potential. And I know what brings you to grieving voices is that you had a lot of loss in a short amount of time, and really not even that long ago. So how about we start there?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 1:26
Yeah, sure. So my grief journey started. If I go back to when I lost my little cousin, who was like, like a sister to me, we were only three years apart. That was 2015, she lost her battle with lupus, she was only 20 years old. And she had a tragic death where she fell off the toilet, the toilet and bashed her head into the sheet rock. And we’re not sure if it was the medication that they gave her that interacted with something else. So that was a hard death for me to deal with in 2015. Because Vanessa and I were super, super close. Then in November of 2020, my father passed suddenly, due to medical negligence. So eight days after having a surgical procedure, and how that how that journey started for me was my dad walked into the hospital just for his blood sugar levels being elevated in the middle of the pandemic. Three days later, we found out that my dad was paralyzed from the waist down, which was just alarming to us, because I’m like, How does someone walk into the hospital? And three days later, they’re paralyzed? So was it the wrong medication? Did my father have a stroke, I just going through the processes of elimination to kind of pinpoint the root cause analysis of what happened. So then that led me to really stepping up to be a patient advocate for my, for my dad, especially in a time where the hospitals were overpopulated with patients and understaffed with physicians and CNAs, doctors and etc. And it was unprecedent. So that that was very hard. There’s more things that happened there. But then the next of significant loss was my grandmother on my father’s side. So she passed nine months and five days from my dad. So it’s like, all the motions came back up again, because it was the same cemetery. She wanted to be buried at the feet of my dad, and just going through all of that created some triggers in me because it was like I was reliving it for again, and with her, it was like she had a slow death, because she fell in the bathroom, similar to how my little cousin had fell. But my aunt was able to turn her over. So whenever my aunt told me that all the emotions of when Vanessa pass came rushing back, and it was hard to compose myself. And since we we currently, we currently live in Texas, and the hospitals were once again over staffed with patients, so the ambulance when they came to came to the house, they pretty much told my aunt that the hospitals were on Drive by status, meaning that there may not be be a room or a bed available. So they pretty much you know, try to help my grandmother, but they said there was nothing else that that they could do. So they pretty much left her lying on the middle of my aunt’s floor, where she ended up passing away slowly because they couldn’t take her to the hospital. So that was a horrible experience and another form of grief. Then the third incident that happened it in regards to lose a loved one was when my grandmother on my mother’s side pass after we got back from the Caribbean, she was 99 years old. And we had just had like a amazing Christmas, we went there, it was the first time, my husband got to meet some of my family down in the Caribbean that was not able to come when we come over when we got married dude, like visas and different stuff. So that was a loss there. And then before that, just backing up the other loss that I had in between all of this was losing my job from corporate America. So I got laid off from oil and gas, along with 19 and 1900 other people in the middle of the pandemic.
Victoria Volk 5:47
That is a lot. That’s, you know, when I say joke about it, it’s not even a joke. But you know, you hate to joke, but it’s kind of, you know, when you look back, it’s like, Wow, COVID really does ruin everything. You know, that’s what I say COVID ruins everything. That’s a lot. And I just want to extend my heart in thoughts and prayers to you and your family. Because that really wasn’t that long ago. And so I want to start or go back to with your father, did you ever find out? What caused his death? Specifically? Like, did he have an emergency, like a medical event? Or do you did you ever find out?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 6:33
Yeah, so we found out bits and pieces. So for the paralysis, we figured out that my dad had did have a stroke, even though one facility told me that he did not have a stroke. So they pretty much lied. But it wasn’t until we got to read rehab that they said, Oh, he has all the signs and characteristics of a stroke. So had they caught it sooner, they could have you know, did preventative measures to help, you know, rehabilitate him faster, or we could have got him to a nerve center, then that led my dad to get a bed sores or sacral wound, which ended up becoming infected, which he got sepsis. So in order to get rid of sepsis, you have to go through a lot of blood transfusions and different stuff like that. That also led him to having emergency neck surgery. And then from emergency neck surgery. There was like so many other things that you know, happened there that I don’t want to be long winded. So it was a hard process. And then it got to the point where my dad just felt like he was not getting adequate care from going from one hospital to rehab them back to the hospital because he got worse in the rehab, where his stomach began to swell and distend. And it was just so hard. Like you could just feel my father’s stomach it felt like rock hard to not be able to see family because the hospital’s been on lockdown. Because of the the COVID numbers rising so high. So they stopped visitors. And then my father came home. So I tried to do the best I could to be like Home Health along with bringing in the appropriate disciplines like OT, occupational therapy, PT, physical therapy, having a nurse come in having a person come in to clean and stuff. And that’s a lot of resources. And you know, insurance only covers so much so we didn’t have full time care. So when they weren’t there, it was all hands on deck, which hurt either myself, my mother and then whenever my husband wasn’t working my husband, but it was very hard and strenuous. And I tell people, my hands go up to caregivers, because people don’t realize how much a caregiver goes through.
Victoria Volk 8:46
Just what was that timeframe from start to when your father passed away? Like how long did this ride out?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 8:56
So May to November? So not that long?
Victoria Volk 9:00
But even five months can feel like five years, right? Yeah. I just had a conversation that I recorded with a patient advocate, actually, she had her own personal experiences with her husband. And it, it really pushed her forward to now be a patient advocate. For she had shared a statistic something to the effect of, well over 200,000 deaths occur every year to medical negligence.
Genesis Amaris Kemp 9:32
I would love to talk to her so yeah, yeah,
Victoria Volk 9:35
I can connect you for sure. And given that, you know, I want to discuss this because I think it really is really important. What do you feel like? Personally in your experience? Do you feel like race played a role in your father not what do you feel like COVID was the hierarchy Do you have that? Or do you feel like that race did play a role in that, too,
Genesis Amaris Kemp 10:04
I think it was a little bit of both one definitely COVID. Because it was a time that no one really projected. And then also, the race factor also played a factor in that as well, because of quality of care that someone who is a person of color versus someone who’s not a person of color, and then you can even break down the demographics a little further between a person who has insurance and a person who does not have insurance, because there’s different tiers. And so when my dad was a person of color, he did have insurance, but he also was in South American descent. So I think all of that played into a factor. And then another thing that one of the nurses said, to my father was like, Oh, you’re surely gonna die if you don’t comply? Because my dad will question like certain treatment. And I feel like as a patient, you have a right to question what treatments are being administered to you. If you feel like it does not agree with your body that is your right as a patient, and for that nurse to have said that, I wish I was there that day, because I certainly would have would have reported her.
Victoria Volk 11:10
And the other layer of that too. And thank you for sharing that I just because as an end of life doula that was very much a part of our conversation and training. And part of the training was that the disparity of care at end of life for palliative care for access, for people have color or in different regions or areas of the country. And so that was a huge part of our training. As an end of life doula. And so I feel like that is an important aspect of healthcare, too, that often doesn’t get talked about enough. Is there anything else about that, that you would like to share? I want to give you a chance to,
Genesis Amaris Kemp 11:50
yeah, I feel like whenever you go into a certain practice, you need to be open minded, that people are coming from various areas and backgrounds. And you need to be sensitive of their needs. Because even though you are a physician, you don’t always have all the answers. And you’re not the end all be all, and you should really see it as a partnership with your patient and actively listen, and it’s a two way street. So you can make sure that that patient has the best care, because if the shoe was on the other foot, and that was your loved one, how would you like your loved one or yourself to be treated?
Victoria Volk 12:30
Now it brings to mind something that I think a job description would be excellent for hospitals would be, you know, an objective person, you know, so like in and at end of life and palliative care, you have the end of life doula that is there on behalf of the patient, first of all, number one, but also for the family. They’re, they’re the bridge between the healthcare staff, the patient and the family. And so they can answer questions they can share with the family, what to expect when their loved one is dying. They can be the advocate for the patient, things like that. And I’m thinking what an amazing thing that that would be for someone for families in hospitals who are going through long term issues, or when their loved ones in the hospital for a long period of time to have that go to person right to be your advocate, because I don’t think we really, that’s really not a thing, is it?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 13:24
No, it’s not. And people don’t realize that the hospitals do have patient advocates, but they’re not a lot. And just like they have social workers, and they have case managers and etc. But if a patient does not know what the resources are, while they are in hospital care, then that also prolongs the help that they’re that they’re given. Like, for example, I just found out that there is a music therapy person at the cantor facility that my cousin is currently undergoing her treatment. And I had no idea that was a thing. But unless she would have told me or the person came around, I wouldn’t have known just like they have a chaplain, they have so many different resources. And I think that we have to do a better job educating the patients, but also the hospital to bridge the gap and just close those gaps with letting them know these are the things that you’re entitled to. And it shouldn’t always be a numbers game, or profit over people. We need to get back to humanity and have compassion, have empathy, and realize that we’re all human beings, and everyday is not going to be the same. But remember why you signed up to do the job that you did?
Victoria Volk 14:42
Yeah, and I think questioning should never be, you should never be shamed for questioning. It’s, you know your body better than anybody else. And that’s, you know, yeah, my son had an incident just a few months, several months back and I was a questioner, probably As annoying as all get out, but you know, you almost you have to be right you have to be because no one’s gonna care more about you than you or your loved one. Right? So, yeah, it is up to us to ensure that’s the thing like with COVID, too, and then they they created this barrier, there was this barrier there where you couldn’t be the advocate, you couldn’t even be there. And so you’re sitting at home wondering, Is he getting the care that he needs? And how did you deal with that?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 15:29
That part was hard. So we sent a tablet with my dad, so we can at least have video calls so we could see him and stuff, especially since we knew that he was suffering from that paralysis from the waist down. And there were times where like, I would be on the phone with him and he was hitting the nurse bell. And it took over 30 minutes for a nurse to come to his room. And like I sat there waited on the phone. And then when I called the nurse desk, they said, Oh, we were just in there. And that literally like if I could turn red Victoria. Or if steam or smoke could come out of my nose and ears like a dragon, you could just picture how bad I was because like, one of my pet peeves is lying. Don’t say you were just in the room when I know I was on the phone. So that was just one incident. And then another thing that happened out of all this stuff is I lost another dear friend. So my best friend’s dad ended up passing after he had surgery to like a few hours. And then my friend was misdiagnosed. And her organs ended up shutting down only to find out that she had lupus. So in the height of the pandemic, they put her in a medically induced coma for four days. And it was just horrendous. So all of these things have happened, along with me losing loved ones. And then so just me having to be a patient advocate and help with other people was also mentally taxing. And the fact that you couldn’t get it get inside some facilities was very alarming because certain policies were not being adhered to, because of the fact that the hospital was short of staff.
Victoria Volk 17:17
Well, that opens them up to liability and negligence, right? Yeah. I didn’t realize that lupus could be deadly like that. And you’ve lost two people, right? It was.
Genesis Amaris Kemp 17:30
So one was my cousin. And then I almost lost my friend who was just diagnosed with lupus, she ended up making it out of the medically induced coma. Then she had a stroke, similar to my dad. So a lot of the symptoms that she had actually mirrored what my dad had. So that was another trigger for me. And but the good thing about her is when she went to a rehab, the rehab facility was honest with them, and said, there’s nothing that we can do to help you. But we can refer you to a neuro center. And when she went to that neuro center, she had to learn how to walk again, she had to learn how to use her arms again. And that was the best thing. And I said, Man, looking back, I wish I would have known about this neuroscience neuro science center that worked on neurology and stroke patients. So I could put my dad there versus the damn facility that I put my dad in for rehab, because it was like everything was like Rush gogogo. Because whenever the insurance is paying, they only cover a certain amount of days in a hospital a certain amount of days in rehab, certain amount of days, and long term acute care, and etc. And they like are rushing, you don’t have enough time to do all your research. But if they would have given me like a week like, hey, we need to move that. And based on insurance, I would have, you know, been better prepared. And yes, my, my husband even got on me because he was getting frustrated. He’s like you should have been researching this. I had no idea it was going to come to the point that I needed to hurry up and move him to another facility and I and you don’t always know what insurance is going to cover. Because sometimes they change things on 30 days basis.
Victoria Volk 19:10
Well, I can’t imagine how much time you spent on hold on the phone. Yeah, dealing with all the different departments and agencies and insurance and yeah, yeah, I can’t even imagine. So how did you What got you through?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 19:28
So after I lost my dad in November of 2020, what really helped me was podcasting. I just opened my phone, and I started talking to myself in the phone, because I got so freakin tired of people saying, Oh, I know how you feel. And I’m like, do you have you lost a parent because both of your parents are very well been alive. Or, um, you know, he’s in a better place, which I’m like, Okay, I understand that. For the spiritual people sometimes come from a religious and spiritual background. Oh, well, the Lord giveth and the Lord take it away. You know, the Lord would never put it more on us than we can bear Genesis. And you know, we all have to die some day, or just whatever. Instead of like asking, you’re saying, I don’t know how you feel. But is there anything that I could do for you, versus pre empting your assumptions and judgments onto me, knowing what I was dealing with, because you don’t know the triggers? You don’t know. Like other things that I went through, you don’t know that my dad and I was super, super close. We had a good relationship. And there’s oftentimes people don’t have a relationship with their father or they don’t even know their father. But I tell people, my dad, we were like, you know, Ben and Jerry, we were like two peas in a pod. That was like my person that like I did, though, to talk about anything over over my mom, even though him and my mom were mayor for 30 years. And he was also my Road Dog. Because times I would want to go to the mall, my husband hates being in the mall. For hours or days, I would just call my dad and he would go with me. Or like, if I want to go to the grocery store, if you could just come along and push the car. It helped me load up the car with the grocery, and just different stuff, and just not to have him there. What was hard, and then when I found out that I was expecting to know that he was a great grandfather to like all of my nieces and nephews, but he will never get the ability to spend time with my child, which him and my mother live with my husband and I. So we we all live together. Like I was like this would be the first one in the house. So how cool would that be? For Dad and Mom to be here? Like? Those are our babysitter’s right there.
Victoria Volk 21:49
What was your dad? What’s your dad’s name? Earl? Your face just lit up a PIN people can’t see this unless they watched the video but your face just lit up as we talked about? What was what are some of the greatest lessons that you that your father passed on to you and that your grandmother shared with you too?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 22:07
So one always know who you are. He he always instilled like scriptures in me especially whenever I have like bad days or I you know, started to question God or like moved away from from God, like my dad was always there. Another thing was always follow your dreams and passion. So like, before I went to real school, I got a real degree like my dad paid for me to go to acting school, which I always wanted to do like, something like that. But I actually got selected for I MTA LA, which is the international model talent agency for Los Angeles where you could go audition, and in front of all the big names of who’s who. But then my mom, she’s very conservative, and my mom’s Caribbean. So she’s like, Oh, no, if they want you like they will pay for you to go there. We’re not spending five grand like that. But what you can do is go get a real degree like your brother, and my brothers are engineers. So like, my mom was very, like school focused and driven. And my dad was always like, oh, yeah, if you want to do that, like go after it. So that’s one thing I miss about my dad, he like he would talk to anybody who would give you the shirt, off your off your back. And since we are a blended and multicultural family, like my dad did not necessarily see color, because his mom was half white, half black. And he was just so open, like to different cultures and people and very loving. And that was a good thing that my dad is still because now we live in a society where everyone is so polarized, whether it’s religion, whether it’s sexual orientation, whether it’s race, or whatever. And I think if we get back to realizing that there’s more commonalities that we have, versus highlighting the differences, we would be better as society. So those are really good values that my dad instilled. And then my grandmother, her and I did not get close until she came back to attend my husband and I’s wedding. So just a humbling experience was the fact that, you know, my grandmother needed help taking a shower. So I helped bathe her one day, and gosh, I have to bake grandma. So that was like, very, like humbling. And she was very sassy. And then, you know, I found out that she really likes to play dominoes. So her and my husband got to play dominoes. So that was cool. My she was a great baker. She loves crossword puzzles, and that’s something I like to do. So she was doing her crossword puzzles and then I started doing them. And when she passed on, like I got all the crossword puzzles that she had left. From my aunt’s house. I was like I got dibs on great on grandma’s house. puzzles. So that was cool with my dad’s mom. And then, with my mom’s mom, the beauty of that was the fact that she was 99. And when we went there to the Caribbean, like she knew that I was expecting before I can even tell her. So it was like a cool bonding experience that we had. So she got to give me her blessing, and speak life over my, my, my baby, and just all of those things. And then she really, she really got to engage with like my husband. And so them to like, started to build a bond and crack jokes. So it was like, kind of kind of cool to see that. And I was like, Oh my gosh, like, this is just amazing. So each one of them have like, amazing things that are remnants that they left
Victoria Volk 25:47
Their voice you just lit up again. You can see have so much love for your family. And as we all do, but you just saw you lit up talking about them. I do wonder, has there been grief? Or was there grief about that potential dream?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 25:47
Oh, oh, yeah, cuz I told my, my mom all the time, even now, I could have been on the big screens with Tyler Perry, I could have had my dream car by now. My black Lambo sitting on black with my blue neon lights. Just or just like the pipe dreams are just different stuff like that, because that is like my personality, I love talking with people engaging in different conversations. And just when you could take yourself out of your own reality and submerge it in something else, to really allow your creative, creative juices to flow. I think that’s amazing. And I have a lot of love for like the producers, the writers, the illustrators, and etc. Because there’s so many things that go involved in in that, that people from the outside looking in, don’t realize. And I was like, you know, at the end of the day there there are people just like we are even though they have like, you know, the nice, the nice house, a nice car, and etc. But like I was like money doesn’t make you but money does act as a vehicle to get you what you want. So you could like give back to society, because there’s so many charities that I want to partner with, like lupus and I want to partner more with the cancer center and find find cures for diet for diabetes and different ways to pair like a nutritionist with every like diabetic person so they could can reverse diabetes, and just different stuff like that I have so many goals and dreams. But like without having all the resources, you’re not able to check those off your list just yet I say just yet, because I do believe in manifestation and the law of attraction.
Victoria Volk 27:47
Because you brought up, you know, career and dreams and all of if you can share that job loss. Was that like a blessing in disguise?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 27:57
Looking back, I think it was because what a lot of people don’t know is that we tried for so long to conceive. And it just wasn’t, wasn’t happening. And I’m not sure if if if it was because my job was very high stress, or I was just very unhappy there. Especially whenever I knew that I was being underpaid under value. And I think didn’t did not change for me until I spoke up after the whole Black Lives Matter incident when I was in the Vice President’s meeting, and that’s where I got a $20,000 salary increase one week later, good for you. And I got a bump in my classification level from 15 to 22. But why did it have to take me speaking up about my stories with personal racism and professional racism. And it was just, it was just heart wrenching. And I think what really gave me the option was knowing the fact that I had my book out on the market and I was doing work in the diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging space, outside of you know, my day to day job in corporate but I feel like when you come from a good old boys club that male dominated, older, Caucasian white men, like you have to work twice as hard to be seen and heard without doing things that compromises your morals and values because sometimes people are just wanting to get ahead so bad like they do things that are unscrupulous or things that would demean who they are
Victoria Volk 29:31
Yeah, yes all of it everything you shared good for you and I imagine that that’s like how has that played in your those experiences played into the work you’re doing now?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 29:42
Oh, they’ve played into it drastically because being laid off has now allowed me the ability to like do my podcasts connect with other people? Yes, it it sucks not having the dual income that I had with my husband is sucks not having, you know the perks of staying at nice hotels are having a limo pick you up to take you to the airport for business travel, or corporate Amex card like those things suck. But I was like when you focus on the vanity, you also lose a sense of who you are by you allowing money to buy you to the point where you’re hushing yourself because the money is so good. So it was a wake up call. And it helped me grow more personally, as well as professionally, to realize that, you know, you could have all the money in the world and still be unhappy. You could have the good salary and live in the nice neighborhood, but still feel feel unhappy if you’re not fully fulfilled in yourself. And if you feel like you’re just going through the motions, because if that’s the case, and you’re just living, you’re not fully existing and enjoying life.
Victoria Volk 30:46
Would you say that that’s what your grief has taught you? Yeah,
Genesis Amaris Kemp 30:49
I would definitely say, grief has taught me that it’s a hell of a journey and a ride. And there are some days that I have to take a mental health day where I feel like certain things will happen where I feel triggered, like right now, I’m funeral out. Like, I don’t want to go to any more funerals, because it’s been a lot. I am tired of seeing so many people suffer from the pandemic or lose their lives, because since I’ve been doing the podcast, other people have shared with me their stories, because I’ve been open about sharing the loss of my dad, and what he went through, and they’re like, oh, my gosh, I could resonate with that. And it’s heart wrenching, because they’re not just African Americans, or people from all walks of life that it’s happened to. Another thing that just bothers me to put the fact right now is, I’m not sure if it’s happening, you’re safe, but the abortion ban law, because you never know what a woman is going through, you don’t know, if she got her test results back and found out that, you know, there’s something wrong with the chromosomes of her baby, and her baby may not make it. So abortion would be a way to help herself and help her child. You don’t know if that woman was raped, you don’t know if you know that woman is in a abusive relationship. And she was forced or coerced into something that you know, she she’s not in a good mental state to be a mother or whatnot. So that that’s heart wrenching. And you know, there are people out here who are, you know, privileged to have a baby and just have a baby. And then they don’t value that they create it life and they just get rid of it versus bringing that baby to full term and giving that baby up for adoption to a loving home. There’s so many things right now, that just agitates the hell out of me. And I feel like having a podcast, I could talk about what I want to talk about what I want to talk about it and just bring awareness on the various subjects while cutting through the fluff because we have so much fluff in social media, we have fluff on TV. And I think people want to hear real, raw, transparent conversations, to know that it’s okay to not be okay. It’s okay to take a mental health day without someone thinking that you’re crazy or you need to be committed, or whatever, it’s okay to pull back the negative stigmas. It’s okay to stand up for what you believe in and be unapologetically you.
Victoria Volk 33:17
There’s so much in what you shared. It’s an it’s also people can believe and have the right to believe what they believe. And it doesn’t make it wrong. And it doesn’t make it it’s just different. I don’t know if this is true, because I haven’t read the whole thing. Or maybe you can clarify it for me on the abortion law there supposedly something that says that women can abort if they don’t like the sex of the baby, that that’s included in that.
Genesis Amaris Kemp 33:44
I have not seen that. But that would be alarming. If that was was our case, because that’s not a good reason to abort the baby. If you don’t like the sex of the baby. As long as your baby is healthy, you should continue to go on with that baby. But then I don’t know the context and pretence of what that woman may be struggling with. Because pregnancy can be a very complicated process. There’s I like to tell people, there’s the good, the bad and the ugly. And I talked about this recently with the guests. I was like, people see the glamorous side of pregnancy, but they don’t see like your left boob may just start leaking for no apparent reason one day, while you’re in your pregnancy, your butt may hurt from sitting down for so long. Some women have the varicose veins that just pop out they’re hideous or the stretch marks or whatever. And I feel like you need to have those conversations. But going back to that clause, I’m definitely going to have to look that up. Because I would just call BS on that one.
Victoria Volk 34:48
Well, that’s the thing. It’s like I think some laws they could be better written right? And I think if if people if the sides could come together and really talk about what they’re paying asking, right like, Does this seem extreme? Or does you know what I mean? Like, yeah, find a common ground and an understanding of that both sides can agree to but back to you, I want to thank you for your time today. And I want to give you an opportunity to share where people can find you, if they want to hear more from you.
Genesis Amaris Kemp 35:20
So you can head on over to my website, which is genesisamariskemp.net. And I’m gonna spell it. So it’s a G E, N, E, S, I S, Amaris A M, A, R, I, S, K, E, N, P.net. So have a link to my Instagram, my Facebook, you’ll get a free chapter of my book, which is the first chapter of chocolate drop in corporate America, from the pit to the palace. And for those of you on the video, I will hold up what the book looks like. So that is the cover of the book there. So you see that it really shows shows that diversity, that equity and inclusion on the book, there’s a world in the background, letting people know that this happens worldwide, not just in America. And I’m also giving away two other freebies on my site, which is under the features and merchandise tab, which one is a health assessment because I truly believe in order to have longevity, it starts with nutrition and overall wellness and exercise. So there is a health assessment there so you can analyze where you are currently, and what vehicles you need to use to get to where you want to be. And then there is a free product. It’s the Kiani sunrise, which is the super fruits and super nutrient all in one pack. So definitely give you that energy. And just to boost you up especially if you don’t like certain veggie vegetables or certain fruits, you’ll have everything that you need in one packet. And it’s a quick drink, you could drink on the go. Unlike the garbage that’s on the market, like a monster a five hour energy that boosts you up like a rocket but then you come crashing down. So those are three freebies that I’m giving. And then I also want to encourage people to check out some of the other things that I have going on which all info can be found out on my website via the different tabs.
Victoria Volk 37:25
And what’s your podcast called?
Genesis Amaris Kemp 37:26
My podcast is called Gems G, E, M, S with Genesis Amaris Kemp, and it’s called gems because we all have incredible gems to share. While we are here on earth, and the core pillars are to educate, inspire and motivate, plus intersect the dots between diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging.
Victoria Volk 37:52
I love it. I love your message to so thank you so much for being here. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Cancer, Childhood Grief, Death/Dying, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Resources |
Dan Goldberg | Finding the Glory
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Was your childhood filled with joy and surrounded by love and support? There may have been some challenging times for your parents or even for you, but what if you indeed did have the ideal life?
Dan’s childhood was amazing. So when grief hit home hard, and hard it did, he was ill-prepared. He had experienced the death of his grandparents, but even then, there was little discussion about death or grief. His parents did their best to shelter him and his siblings from the sorrows of life.
So when his father was dying of cancer, there was a strong message shared by his father and other loved ones that his father would get through it, that he would beat cancer. And when the next cancer treatment worked, they would take that amazing family vacation. However, that family vacation never happened.
Before Dan turned 20, his father died. And, before his 25th birthday, his mother would also die of cancer, the kind that’s hard to pronounce and little known about. What are the odds?
Rather than taking those odds and allowing them to destroy his life, Dan took the advice his mother gave him before she died that shook him straight and went on a quest for healing.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. today. My guest is Dan Goldberg. He is a serial entrepreneur and host of the bits of gold podcast, where he explores thought provoking topics, navigating tough circumstances, and ultimately, how you can build a purpose driven life no matter what. On bits of gold, Dan discusses waking up to who we truly are finding our purpose and the importance of building our dream life through unfiltered conversations, personal experience, and inspiring interviews. Thank you so much for being here, Dan.
Dan Goldberg 0:34
Thanks so much for having me. It’s great to great to see you again.
Victoria Volk 0:37
And I was a guest on bits of gold. And I just love that whole bio. I love how you describe the podcast. And I just I think the name is really clever, too, because I think so often, in our stories, there are bits of gold that we can’t really see when we’re in the thick of it, right, but we can eventually see once we’re to the other side of it. And that’s why you’re on grieving voices. Because somehow, some way you have found the other side of what you’ve experienced, in a lot of ways, you’re probably still going through it because grief is like that it kind of shows up when we least expect it. So what brings you to grieving voices?
Dan Goldberg 1:19
Yeah, I was gonna say still still moving through it. I think that journey is, is is a journey. And it is there’s, there’s never really a destination, right? Like, I think you’re constantly on grief, grief, once you experience grief, it’s with you forever. And it morphs. It evolves, it takes shape in a new life and a new light. And as as you get older, and as more time moves on. But I think grief is something that you always carry with you once you experience loss, regardless if it’s regardless if it’s a traumatic loss or not.
Victoria Volk 1:54
And so what was your first experience, even in childhood, with loss?
Dan Goldberg 2:01
Yeah, so I’ve actually I feel like so I’m 28 years old. And I feel like, by the time I turned 25, I experienced actually a pretty significant amount of loss in my life. The two most the two most traumatic ones, my my dad passed away when when I turned 20 A couple of months prior to me turning 20 years old, my dad passed away. And then my mom passed away a month after my my 25th birthday. So within a five year period, I lost both my dad and my mom. But prior to that actually growing up I I had lost a both my grandparents, my grandma and aunt and a dog. So I feel like I’ve actually had like a pretty wide a lot of loss at a at a fairly young age.
Victoria Volk 2:51
And how can I ask how your parents address those losses? Because often we just don’t know as parents what to do or what to say?
Dan Goldberg 2:59
Yes. So I would say the first the first. The first loss that my grandma was the first person that that passed away in my direct family. And I was like, so young, I really don’t have any memories with her. I don’t even remember how that was handled or how my family navigated. I really don’t remember that my grandma was fairly older. So I don’t have any memories there. When my aunt passed away, that was completely unexpected. And she died in the middle of of of the night. And I want to say it was days before or maybe even on her 50th birthday. But I remember my parents came home and they my parents were out to dinner, my parents came home my sisters and I were on the couch and they told us that tell us something and my aunt my They said my aunt passed away. And we were caught we were close with this. And and similarly, you know, like I just didn’t really I wasn’t at a point in my life, from an age standpoint that I can really understand comprehend. What what that actually meant. Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, I really have never spoken about my end. But it is. It’s interesting now looking back, just like how limited my understanding was of what it meant that she had died. And I remember my parents telling me that but I really remember not being able to comprehend or understand and I’m sure we’ll get into it later on this podcast. But I’m very involved now in an organization experience camps, which is a free one week camp for kids that have lost loved one, ages nine to 16. And it’s only a five day camp I go every single summer and I think about that a lot while I’m at at the camp volunteering as a counselor, just like when I’m with kids who are 910 Even 11 years old, how they’re, what they’re processing and how they’re able to try how they’re trying to understand or what it really means the person is dead and gone. forever and what that means, physically, obviously, I’m speaking.
Victoria Volk 5:04
Do you remember how old you were when your aunt passed?
Dan Goldberg 5:08
Um, let’s see. I was definitely before maybe 10 or 11. So, but yeah, it’s like it’s even my memories with her are very blurry. But I just vividly remember really not understanding or comprehending, a comprehending death. And, you know, I could I could actually speak to that a little bit just to get off my aunt, specifically with my dad. So my dad died when I was 20. The leading up to his death, I had just transferred into a new college, my parents dropped me off parents dropped me off in August, and Parents Weekend was around Thanksgiving around November time. And my dad traveled a lot for for work. And he had just gotten back from a trip overseas. And my dad was like, I’m not feeling too well. He’s and he said, I’m not sure if we’re going to come up Parents Weekend or not, but I want to see you. So I said, do whatever you need to do, if you want to come up, come up if you can’t come up, because you’re not feeling great. Whatever you want to do, he ended up saying, You know what I really want to see you so he ended up coming up. And when he got there, he looked completely different. He was very, like his skin color was very, very pale. He looked a lot skinnier than he then he was. And he just didn’t look well. And we went out for we I hung out with him and my mom during the day we went out for dinner. And the next morning, he woke up and he said, You know, I’m really not feeling well. So my parents decided to go home, they didn’t stay the weekend, they only say that one night, they drove home. But instead of going home, they made a detour and stopped to the hospital. And originally they thought maybe he had maybe he got something from traveling overseas, maybe it was the flu, something like that. And they were running all these different tests. And about like a week and a half later, they called me and they said that has cancer. And it was even in that moment that and at that point, I was 20 years old, I really couldn’t comprehend, or understand that, like death was even a part of the equation. When my parents told me my dad was sick. My dad called me and he said, You know, it’s not I we have to tell you something, we have to talk to you. I I have cancer, that I’m going to see the best doctors in the world and I’m going to be okay. And I have I have actually a lot of a lot of my uncle’s are and answered our doctors or work in the hot but hospital or health system. And my my uncle called me after. And he sort of just reassured me you know, my dad’s gonna get the best care. And he’s gonna He’s gonna be okay. And we’re gonna get through this that was sort of like the the messaging that my parents sort of told me from the get go that my uncle sort of told me, and seven short months later, he passed away. And as as that as through those seven months, my dad was progressively getting worse, and I was away at school, but I’d come home for the holidays. And I’d come I’d make some trips to come home just to see him. And every time it was progressively worse and worse. So when I first saw him he looked very skinny pale. Next time I saw him he was using a walker. Next time I saw him he was using a wheelchair. Next time I saw him we put this like the electric chair in the on the stair so we get up from the first floor to the second floor. And the next time I saw him he couldn’t really move from his bed to the bathroom without being completely out of breath. And then it was like he was just sort of stuck in this chair. And toward towards the end he was really just like stuck in this chair. And we got like one of those reclining chairs for him. And he would just sort of stay there drink a lot of liquids and he was going to get chemo treatments. And even throughout that entire process. There was never truly a point in my mind where I said, my dad is going to to die or that that was even sort of a that was even a part of the the possibility in the realm of possibility. And actually days leading up to his his his death. My dad, my dad ended up not being able to really walk towards the end. And he had a lot of hip pain. And he ended up going to the hospital to get some radiation to his hip. And I was supposed to be traveling for for like the weekend to go to Boston for for for work. And this was this was Friday, and I went to the hospital to see him. And I said that Should I cancel my trip. I’m just going to Boston for the weekend. But I don’t mind I could stay here. And he said nothing’s going to change between now and when you come home on Sunday. So he said go on the trip. And it was at this point that my dad sort of in that same at that same day earlier in the day my dad had told me there’s nothing more that doctors can do from a chemo standpoint. But they’re going to raise my hip. And I’m going to be able to have a lot more movement after. And we’re going to do like one more big family trip. And I’m going to be okay. So, you know, I saw I said, Okay, do you want me to stay and he said, Go go to Boston, everything’s going to be fine. And I ended up giving him a kiss, and went to Boston. And Sunday morning, my mom called me and she said, Come home as soon as possible. got in the car first thing in the morning, drove right to the hospital. And at that point, they had like, my dad’s pain meds, and he wasn’t, he was, he wasn’t really he wasn’t really lucid at that point, he was just sort of sleeping and making some uncomfortable, like, just noises, you know, it was clearly he was, he was clearly going to die. And the doctor had come in and just said, you know, he’s, this could go on for a couple days, several hours, they didn’t really know, but that he was going to die. And that was, it was really in that moment that, like, I collapsed, and I ended up going leaving the room going to the waiting room. And I just remember like putting my head in my hands and trying to understand or comprehend that my dad’s going to die. And it really wasn’t up until that point where I really had even, there wasn’t even a thought or imagination or possibility in my mind. And part of it was definitely that my parents tried to shelter me or protect me from it’s funny, like the Protect me, but protect me from, you know, the, just the painful, the painful truth and the painful destination that we ultimately ended up at. I think my dad definitely tried to shelter, shelter me a little bit. And that was by choice. And that was his decision. But it definitely, but that was really like the first time that I realized that, hey, people, people do die. People do die young. And it’s funny, just since we started talking about my aunt, it’s even funny, having had those experiences and having lost my aunt and grandparents. You know, you understand obviously, as a young person that death is, death is like, one of one of the few guarantees we all know is our inevitable destination. But I really do think so often. And I would say that this was very much my life previous previous to experiencing significant loss and losing my dad, my life was really, everything’s good. Probably the things that weren’t of significance, I thought were of significance. And although you know that death is a part of life, you’re not really constantly living with that on your mind, thinking about people die, or those around me can die or those that I love die, or I can die you don’t really think of those things I really believe is someone who’s young, naive, and unfortunately, or unfortunately, unfortunately, hasn’t really experienced anything significant. You don’t really, I don’t think you’re walking around, really holding that, that weight that death is a real part of life and that it can strike in a moment’s notice with no warning, no rhyme nor reason. Things will happen and that sort of life. And I think that’s an you know, I’m sure we’ll get into it. But that’s definitely something that I carry near and dear to me now. It’s like that is so physically, spiritually, emotionally, it’s, it’s such a real thing at this point in my life. And knowing that that’s what’s that’s sort of like the bouncing board that enables me to think about life with this unique perspective, which has sort of been the guiding light in my life now now ever forward. But yeah, I just, I just don’t really think that we think about it as young kids, even young adults, even maybe adults, if you haven’t really experienced significant loss, I think, you know, I don’t want to say necessarily my, my dad, because his his sister died when later on in life, that was my aunt, but like, my mom really didn’t experience significant like growing up, we lived in such a happy household. And there were things obviously, where there were challenges or life circumstances that my parents had to navigate. But I have such a happy childhood and life as we knew it as a family, I would say was so happy that like we really didn’t experience the significant shitstorm that would come in my early 20s and mid 20s.
Victoria Volk 14:31
And I want to speak to that a little bit because we are a product of our environment, right? And so you can have two different homes where they can have all these different experiences, negative, impactful experiences, and it’s all negative and the worst always happens to us. And here’s another challenge and it’s really heavy energy, or we can grow up in a home where it’s even if there’s a challenge it’s, well you know what we got we’ll get through this And it’s there’s this positive outlook versus this negative outlook. And so although that served you well as a child growing up, and you know, it might be some people might even say, well take those rose colored glasses off, right? Because the reality is, is that crap happens. But it’s the outlook that your parents gave you. Right? That partially may have resulted in this inability to think about death as like this finality or like this, like this could ever happen to me. So it’s like, where’s the balance? Yeah. You know, because you can go, it’s like the pendulum swung very much the positive way, instead of the negative way, but yet, it didn’t prepare you. For what, for the challenges when they really did when it was really big. Right? When it was something really big?
Dan Goldberg 15:54
Yeah, well, so it’s definitely it’s, it’s interesting. When I look back at when my when my dad was sick, I had this extremely naive perspective thinking, Oh, my dad’s not gonna die. Honestly, there was one conversation I had with a friend who had lost his that young and he had told me, you know, maybe half of the conversations with your dad that you want to have. The advice was have these conversations you’ll want to have with your dad that you might want to questions you might want to ask him later on in life, but it’s like now I sit here as a 28 year old when I was 20. The questions I would ask him now, versus the questions I would ask him that are so drastically different than you know, it was sure we sat down we, I would we would talk about things. But obviously, he’s he’s not here to answer those questions today that are now on my mind. But anyways, that was my one friend. That was that was I had that one conversation with a friend. And that was the only time where like, death really was part of the conversation. So I had this extremely naive, and just like very innocent mindset around life and death when my dad was sick. On the contrary, when my mom was sick, it was a very different experience. My mom got sick when I was coming home from a 25. I was coming home from sorry, 24, I was coming home from experience camps. This was in August, and weeks prior, my mom had gallbladder surgery. And they said some they said that she had she had gall stones, and she ended up getting gallbladder surgery. And she she didn’t really like make a full recovery. I ended up going to experience camps. I volunteer for a week, I’m driving home from Georgia to New York. And when I get home, I get home pretty late at night, I go to sleep, I wake up in the morning, and I’m very excited. tell my mom about the week, all the kids that I’ve connected with the incredible stories. And my mom, my mom slept later than me, which like very, very much was not like her by any means. And I was sitting on the couch, waiting for her to wake up and she had no coming down. And she was she was in her pajamas. And she sat down on the couch next to me. And she told me that I’ve been diagnosed with cancer, but they don’t know what type of cancer, but we’re gonna get through this and everything’s gonna be okay. Sort of like, you know, the same very positive mindset around that we’re gonna get through this. My mom was having a tough time eating and keeping food down. And they were waiting for these test results to come back to try to identify what cancer it was what treatment she’d be getting all those things. And in the five days that were waiting, she really started to experience a lot of significant pain. And she ended up going to we ended up taking her to the hospital. And she checked in and from the moment she checked in, she never ended up checking out she was in the hospital for a little over two months. And they weren’t able to identify what cancer she had until the very end of her time in the hospital. Originally, they said she had soft gel cancer, then they couldn’t really identify it. She ended up actually switching hospitals then going back to the original hospital. And she had three major surgeries while she was in the hospital where they said we don’t know if you’re going to live through these surgeries, but we recommend going through with them. So with my mom’s experience, it was really the only words that I would use to explain the experience that we had with her was just like absolute hell torturous how like she went through these three major surgeries in a very short period of time. She was only in hospital for two and a half months. She had like a tube in her nose. That was how she was she was getting nutrients. She made it to one chemo treatment. And again, they didn’t really have a sense of what cancer they were trying to treat. And like I was sitting in the room with her and at the end she ended up being in excruciating pain, yelling in so much pain and you know you want to you want to do something to help the person but there’s nothing you can do. So, you know, I’m sitting in the room and they come in they’re trying to give her some some medication to try to ease the pain. It was just really hell. And she ended up being diagnosed with a cancer called undifferentiated pleomorphic sarcoma. And the sort of inside joke with my mom was my mom said if you if you end up get always like for a long time that if you ended up getting cancer, you want some, you want something that, you know, you know, typically the cancers that you hear of are the ones you want it, you’re gonna get a cancer, you want that cancer, because they know a lot about it, there’s a lot of money, there’s a lot of research towards it. And there’s more treatment to help those cancers to help people who have those cancers. So I was sort of like the the inside running running joke with my mom. And my mom ended up being diagnosed with undifferentiated pleomorphic sarcoma. And my mom made some joke when they finally said that sort of towards the tail end, just like, of course, this is the this is the one I got. But that so she was in hospital for these two and a half months diagnosed with his cancer. And really, after that first chemo treatment, very quickly, after they said, there’s nothing more that that we can do. And she ended up staying in the hospital, but moving into hospice care, and it was at that point that, you know, we knew she was days, weeks, months prior before she would die, but it was turned out to be about 10 days or so. But it was in that moment. It was in that journey with with my mom, where I had a completely different mentality and perspective around cancer and loss and death and all that, I would say that with my mom, I was hopeful. But I was very realistic that this story didn’t have a happy ending. And, you know, my, my one of my uncle’s, again, I have a few uncles that are doctors, I spoke to one of my uncles that stalked her. And he said, you know, with cancer, it’s like, his advice was don’t start Googling, don’t start researching. Because cancer is a one or a zero, you’re either gonna live or you’re or you’re not, there’s not, there’s not like, Oh, I could be in the 76% that will survive. You know, so he said, there’s no point to Google to start spending your time Googling and trying to figure things out, your mom’s either gonna be okay, or she’s not. But with this specific cancer, I knew that from the beginning that that was a real part of the equation and that, in the best case scenario, my mom was going to live for another couple of years. And I accepted that from the very beginning that life as I knew it, was has has changed once again, and my mom, she might live longer, but she’s going to die in the near future. And I accepted that really, from the very beginning. You know, some people I remember having a conversation with my uncle, and this isn’t to get into religion or spirituality. But My other uncle just kept saying, we have to be hopeful, we need to pray, we need to be hopeful, we need to be hopeful. And, you know, I told him, you know, if that’s what’s working for him, I support it. But I’m going to be supportive, but also realistic, that there’s nothing that any of us can do to change the outcome, the circumstance, and we need to accept that. And I definitely like, you know, I gave him an example, sort of, like, if you’re, if you’re on a plane that’s going to crash, you can pray, you can be hopeful, but the planes still ultimately going to crash. And you’re going to die if you’re on that plane, right? Most most likely. So you know, I gave him I sort of just gave him this example. And I said, this is my mom’s on on the plane that’s going to crash, there’s no, there’s no positive, there’s no happy ending to the story, we need to sort of accept the reality and be supportive. And that’s, that’s it. And that’s sort of where my, my mentality went through in that moment. And that’s sort of how I navigated those two months. Now, I was also, you know, I went to an extremely dark place where it was very hard to be to feel happy, and my life just revolved around waking up, going to the hospital, sitting in the hospital, going to sleep, going home, going to sleep, doing it again for two and a half months, and watching my mom progressively get worse. But, again, my personal experience and my personal ability to just be realistic about the situation and the cards that we were dealt was very pinpoint, I’d say.
Victoria Volk 24:02
Well, I’m just to your point of what your uncle had said to you. He’s saying this to someone who had already lost a parent to cancer, you know what I mean? Like, so it’s like, Do you realize who you’re saying that to? You know, it’s not just like, this is your first rodeo? Yeah, absolutely. You had already been through that. So did you feel almost kind of jaded or, like, and I, you know, I think this spirit spirituality or not even religion, but just like the relationship to God, or that that relationship that either you have it or you don’t. And personally, when my dad died when I was eight, that went away, like I didn’t have that sense of spirituality or anything like I was angry with God. And so did you find yourself feeling that way, especially after your dad had passed where, you know, you had this hope and you have this naive approach, in a way, did that change for you?
Dan Goldberg 24:57
I would say that with my dad, you My focus really didn’t become so much me it became much more helped my mom support my mom. And I sort of just followed almost like followed my mom’s footsteps, I would say my mom turned a little bit more in the spiritual direction, I was just like there to be with my mom, but not necessarily turning into God or religion or things, things of that nature, with with my mom when she died, would carry me after my mom died. So this will get get back to your question around spirituality and what sort of carried me through. But when my mom died, like leading up to days before she was she was going to die. Although I accepted that she was going to die, I was in a very dark place. It looked at my blinds are closed, but it looked like a day out like today, it was beautiful outside the sun was like beaming down. And I remember I was walking to get lunch with a friend. And so my friend had lost his dad growing up. So he had experienced a significant loss in his life. And this, this specific friend of mine is just like a very good listener. And when we sat down, I told him, You know, I don’t want to, I don’t want this to just be like me venting to you. You don’t need, I don’t want you to feel compelled that you have to say anything. He’s like, I’m just here to listen, you know, I’m not here to share my opinions. I’m just here to listen, I’m here to just literally say whatever you want, I’m here for you. And I really felt like I was in such a dark place I could not. And I’m really a happy person, I could not feel any sense of happiness. Again, it was like beautiful outside. And normally I’d go outside and be like, Oh, it’s a beautiful day. This is this is great. And in that moment, I like everything was gray. That’s really the only way that I could explain it. It’s almost like when you if you wake up and you just, you don’t want to get out of bed. It’s not necessarily you don’t have any aspirations. It’s just that there’s I felt almost as if there was no point there was there’s there was no point to get out of bed. There was no point to to do anything during the day because life life kind of suck. That’s how that’s, that’s, that’s really the feeling that I was feeling. And after that lunch, I went back to the hospital. And it was at that point that my mom told me that there was no more there was nothing more that they could do, and that she was going to move to hospice care. And I remember telling her life so unfair. First, the world took that from us. And that’s already enough. But now we have to lose you too. My mom said life is unfair. But life’s also glorious, she said you have to go and find the glory. And that was really the big thing that like instantly changed my entire mentality where my mom almost pressed it into my mind, it was it really was like in that in that one conversation where I was in this place where not not where I was suicidal, but definitely where I just was not feeling a point to get out of bed to to just go about my life at that point, like the lowest low the darkest place that I’ve personally ever done, was in that moment where like, I accepted that life is filled with hardship. And that’s, that’s life and you need to sort of accept it. But there’s also plenty of beautiful things. Plenty, as my mom said plenty of glorious things that you need to go and find embrace, and life sad balance of, you know, painful, but also yet so beautiful. And that was really like the, the shift. And when my mom had died, and in the eulogy that I gave at the funeral, I had said that I’m not going to focus on the why. You know, and I might spend some time thinking about why why is this happened. But ultimately, that’s not where I’m going to focus my time and energy, I’m going to focus on the what, what I’m going to do now as a result of the circumstances as a result of what I’ve lived through. And I’m going to focus on finding the glory despite, despite the unfair despite the shit, I’m going to focus on what I can do now as a result of the circumstances I’ve been put in, and that that I’d say is really was really the where I went to after my mom died and sort of, you know, in many ways what what led us to, to this moment now.
Victoria Volk 29:15
And you starting your podcast?
Dan Goldberg 29:19
Yeah, it’s starting the podcast getting involved in experience camps I’ve been involved for almost a decade now. And you know, I feel like I am on such a mission to help others who have lived through significant loss know that, you know, loss is unfortunately, a very real part of life but that it doesn’t need to destroy your define us and that it very much can, you know, people who experienced significant loss can still very much go on to live happy, healthy lives that they that they enjoy.
Victoria Volk 29:50
So you were a part of experience camps even before your dad passed?
Dan Goldberg 29:55
No. So I only I got involved. I’m almost so this is going to be my ninth summer So once my dad passed, I went, I went, I, I grew up going to summer camp. And once I had the opportunity to like, go back to camp in a more meaningful way, I sort of jumped at it. So once my dad got sick, I went I once my dad passed, I got involved right away.
Victoria Volk 30:16
Yeah, I’ve looked up the organization. I’ll put the link in the show notes. And that is something that I that would be an amazing way to spend a week in this. Yeah, you should come. I would love that. I’m in the sticks, though, of North Dakota. So anywhere I would go, I’d have to hop on a plane. And
Dan Goldberg 30:34
We have we have some people who come from last year because I COVID. But north from London, Australia. Oh, wow. Yeah. But we have we have we’ve grown a lot. So there’s camps all over the US, California, outside Chicago, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, Georgia. I think they’re opening up one in DC now and Maine.
Victoria Volk 30:54
Yeah, cuz that was not I remember I went to I went to one summer camp, and it was, it would have been four years after my dad had passed, I think it would have been about 12 or so. But it was a church camp. Okay. And I had an amazing time. I still remember that time, but it wasn’t for grief. You know, it wasn’t for, for me really my grief and things like that. But that, you know, and I talked about this on other podcasts, I’ve been a guest, but there wasn’t room for me to grieve, you know, as a child, so I internalized all of mine. And so, for you, you know, having that happen when you’re a little bit older, you have that maybe ability to you know, your approach is very different. And your outlook is very different. But I imagine though at that age, too, it’s very difficult. Like you mentioned your one friend, but wasn’t that difficult to find people your age that you could, that could relate to you or you could relate to them?
Dan Goldberg 31:59
Yeah, I would say definitely after my dad died, it was extremely difficult. I was going into my senior year of college, then everyone’s focused on partying, getting drunk. I’d say very limited schoolwork. Going out. It was it was an extremely difficult year for me. And I really didn’t I wanted to drop out so badly. I had like, my body was telling me drop out, go home, help, help around, help around the house, help your mom out. That was really all I wanted to do. One of the last things my dad told me, because I voiced to my dad numerous times while he was sick, I want to drop out I want to drop out. And he’s like, just get the damn degree that was sort of like, and then there was never any discussion. So that’s, that was sort of my dad’s wish. And I, I listened to it. But yeah, it was it was really challenging. I would say I’d wake up, and I’d wake up away from my mom. And I did not know. I did really didn’t understand like, why I was even at school, I wanted to go home and help help my mom. And that’s, you know, when my dad died, and I know I already mentioned it, but so much of my personal focus and and life became around, how can I help my mom, I really was not thinking so much about like, what does Danny need? What? What do I need to heal to move forward? To keep going in my life, it became how can I sort of not necessarily replace my dad, but help as if my dad was still alive. That was really where I went. And when my mom died? I would say almost in like five years, it was truly the first time where I took a step back and started thinking about like, what does Danny need? What does Danny want? What do I want my life to look like? And that’s where I started to really go on this, like, very deep introspective journey of how do I become more intentional and what what do I how do I make sense of what life is and all all those questions that you know, are sort of the every journey we’re all on trying to think through as as we build our own lives. But yeah, it was it was really hard to find that community early on. And after my dad died, that I was I really feel extremely lucky and fortunate that I did find community very quickly by volunteering at experience camps, and I ended up I remember the first time I spoke about my dad, it was I was terrified. It was extremely challenging. I would break down and in tears and you know, I couldn’t even it was very hard and challenging to just say my dad died. You know, it’s like almost funny looking. I’ve said it now so many times that it’s it’s just like, good more. Good morning. Can I have a coffee? You know, it’s almost like the same thing. It’s very matter of fact at this point, but I remember that being extremely difficult and even in like a small setting, even with my closest friends. Even with family, I’d say actually with family there’s there’s a You know, families are different. But I would say for the most part, like, my family and I, we acknowledge, and we celebrate, like death of bursaries or things like that, and we say we missed the person, but we’re never going beyond sort of that surface level. And you know, even in many ways with friends, it’s it’s rare at this point that we do that. But there are moments or times like add experience camps, where going there is very acceptable in the norm and things of that nature. So I ended up finding community in that and ended up sort of throwing myself at other opportunities, I don’t know if it’s still around. But there, there’s was an organization, that dinner party, which did grief parties for people who have experienced significant loss, and I went to a bunch of those and met a bunch of people who, you know, had lived through a significant loss. And, you know, it was actually funny, I went to that only a few times, but I remember going to this dinner party. And I was definitely I think the youngest, both times, I was the youngest person there. And this was only after my dad had passed. And I had already from from volunteering and experience kampsen, from sharing my own story, and from helping others who have lived through loss at this dinner party, I must have been maybe 22 years old, 23 years old, and everyone else, maybe it was like late 20s, early 30s. And a lot of people, there was the first time sharing their story. And that’s the point is you everyone brings something to the dinner party, and you sit down and you talk about your people, or the person that has died. And you’ve sort of built community through through this network. And I remember, like, really, there were so many people there who was the first time they were sharing their story. And my friend and I went with a friend from experience camps, we almost ended up like leading the dinner party and getting the conversation going and trying to make it an environment in which people felt like comfortable to sort of go there. But it is it is very difficult, I think to to find that community. But I really do feel like there are a lot of organizations now that exist, if you if you seek them out, where you can find community and find people who are who have lived through something similar or going through something similar. I can’t really speak obviously as much to what it’s like being a child. But I can only imagine how difficult and challenging it is to lose someone significant when you’re so young, because it’s I think the processing, really understanding and comprehending is the challenge there. And I know so many people now who have who have lost someone very young, and you know, they deal with all sorts of different not necessarily problems, but just their their own grief journey is very different, where maybe they don’t have memories with the person. And they have different challenges as it relates to how they grieve for their grief journey, as opposed to my own grief journey, where it’s like, I have so many memories with both my parents, but you know, they’re, they’re not here, etc. So it’s very different. Obviously.
Victoria Volk 38:00
When this happened to you, at a really, I’ll say ripe age, like you’re just on the cusp of going on your own into adulthood. And and I know that, like you kind of described just the college years, it can be a crazy time and things. Did you find yourself going down this slippery slope? Were you using alcohol? Were you using other things to soothe you during those years?
Dan Goldberg 38:27
Yeah, I wouldn’t say that. I was definitely drinking but I would say more like any other college student who’s excited or living for the party. I was not I was not like drinking necessarily. I wasn’t drinking though like to numb the pain that I was in, I would say the college was sort of just like my senior year of college was a tremendous block sort of, of me getting to where I wanted to get to go, which was I want to get out of here. I want to get this degree because that’s what my dad wanted. For me. And I want to I want to get out of here so I can help take care of my mom. But I really didn’t use I wasn’t using like drugs or alcohol as a way to numb numb the pain I was in. I started seeing a therapist for the first time my life like right, immediately after my dad died. And I think that that really helped. I did I did. You know I think grief manifests itself in different ways. And I think physical is one of the many ways that we experience grief and early on like when I was 21 right after my dad died. I couldn’t again like I had I really had to and I just spent I know. We’re talking now for like 45 minutes about grief and I feel now I’m at a point where I really can discuss in depth my emotions, how I feel what I felt, but right after my dad died, I definitely couldn’t. I couldn’t. I still was having a difficult time comprehending I remember the night he died going in the car with my mom, my uncle and They were driving home. And so I remember driving home and just like, again, my hands, my head was in my hands. And I just, I remember both when my mom and dad died, like, specifically, I guess when my dad died, just like, sort of just sitting there shaking my head, trying to really comprehend, you know, what, what had just taken place. So my dad, like thinking, so my dad’s gone now forever, how, why? It’s so unfair, I’m so angry, but I couldn’t even like, you know, I couldn’t really put like, for example, I’m so angry, I couldn’t put the emotion onto the feeling. And for me, when my dad died, the grief really manifested in physical ways. So like, my dad had all this hip pain. And then I was like, I think I have all this hip pain too. And I would find myself really in more of like a panic state. And I remember having a lot of panic attacks and being absolutely terrified that I was also going to die. And, and all that was because I, I really had an inability to, to feel like I had, and it wasn’t like I was I was numb to the loss it was that I didn’t know how to physically, emotionally express what I was feeling. And I would say, really, that’s, that’s what, for me, going to therapy like, right away helped with. And I think, in many ways, like finding community, going to go into the third therapy, which I’m still doing now like, that’s enabled me to be able to openly share and discuss and actually feel these feelings were in the past, especially at 20, where I really couldn’t, I really, like I really had such an inability. And it’s almost funny looking back now, because who I was eight years ago is so tremendously different from who I am now. But it’s definitely funny. I think as a whole, like society is definitely getting better with discussing grief and having it be a part of a normal, a normal part of a conversation. It’s not so taboo anymore. But you know, thanks to shows like yours and the work that a lot of people are doing in this space. But I definitely think it’s still a very uncomfortable one where people don’t know what to say, people don’t know how to support the people that are going through it. I do think like, when you’re so young, it’s very difficult for even you, yourself to, to like self advocate for yourself and to understand and that that was really where I struggled after my dad died, and especially being in that college environment. Like, I wasn’t sitting down with a friend over lunch discussing that my dad just died. And I want to, I just need someone to listen, or I want to share some things and I’m feeling you know, like, I wasn’t at a point where I could could do those things.
Victoria Volk 42:47
Because you probably didn’t feel safe to.
Dan Goldberg 42:49
Yeah, I’d say that. And I really think I had like a knee didn’t have the language. Yeah, you know, and it’s, it’s,
Dan Goldberg 42:57
I don’t know if it’s necessarily a gender thing, but I think also, it is challenging for like, to put the emotion to the feeling, right. Like I actually do feel angry right now or actually do feel sad right now. And, yeah.
Victoria Volk 43:10
And it’s not bad. It’s just and you can feel joy and you can feel anger. Yeah, absolutely the same. Within the same minute, right. Yeah. So I’m curious too. Are you an only child?
Dan Goldberg 43:24
I have two older sisters as well.
Victoria Volk 43:26
Okay, I mean, have you been through the years like with those with the loss of the parents has that in I mean, I don’t know if you’re okay, sharing, but has that brought you closer together?
Dan Goldberg 43:38
Yeah. So my, my family is like, we’re very close. My sisters live. Like only like, 40 blocks away from me and Manhattan. So we grew up and like I said, like, when we grew up, we, my family knew no, we didn’t know like sadness, really, as a family. Like, we only knew happiness. And, you know, I feel so fortunate, grateful lucky, like, blessed that that was that that was how we grew up. And that was, that was all we we knew, like how, how freakin lucky were we? And I would say we really even became closer after my, my dad had passed, and just like wanting to be there for one another. And, you know, I know that you know, we’re very lucky to that that is sort of where we all went to and after my mom passed that that stayed the course and you know, I think we all want to be there for an in each other’s lives. And obviously, we can’t fill fill the void and not having our parents be here but at least be there as as much as possible. And I really I feel so this this is this definitely isn’t something that I’ve openly voiced before, but I actually really feel so grateful for my like, Send a family, my cousins, my aunts and uncles, I think about that a lot. After my mom had died, you know, after my dad had died, my mom’s still there. So she’s sort of like the glue that kept everyone together. And after my mom died, my family like my aunt’s my uncle’s, my cousins have stepped up big in every which way, in every which way imaginable. Like, my uncles that live across the world will fly in one of my uncle’s is coming here in a couple of weeks. And to see us to be there for us to be there with us. One of my both my sisters recently had baby, their first baby wants to start identical twins, so she had babies, but you know, my, my, my family stepped up big. And I’m really so like, moved and grateful that that is what they did. Because, you know, when you wake up in the morning, no one forces any any of us to do anything. And they’ve all consciously made a decision, an effort, and a choice that, you know, I’m going to step up big and, and be there despite my sister, right, their sister or their brother not being here, I recognize that I’m like, so freaking lucky that that is the situation. And that that is how things are in our life. And yeah, it’s like, honestly, I sometimes have to like, pinch myself, because I’m like, Wow, I’m lucky. I’m lucky in this situation, because I do know that, you know, after you live through significant loss, families, it’s very easy for families to be torn apart from lack of communication from high emotions from for all for all different reasons. And I think that I don’t, I don’t think that in and just in any family, you know, the, that the uncle or the aunt steps up big and he’s like, I’m gonna be there when you have your first kid or I’m gonna be there when you go through that milestone in your life. And I really feel like, yeah, just I know how lucky I am to have to have that.
Victoria Volk 47:03
Yes, you are. Yeah, that wasn’t my experience. So yeah, it is, it makes a huge impact. And so thank you for bringing that up. Because anyone listening to this, if they’ve lost a sibling who has children, to keep that in mind, the impact that they still can have, in that person’s life, the child’s life, their niece or nephews life?
Dan Goldberg 47:27
Yeah, I’m getting chills here thinking about it. But you know, I think I think also, I think about it, sometimes it’s definitely been like a thought that’s popped into my mind, where now with my sisters, what if that they have kids, you know, it’s like, if God forbid, something happened to them, and they, and they passed, you know, I see that you can now step up big, and I see the impact that it can have. And, and, you know, I think about it as it relates to other people, right, it hasn’t really been my my personal situation, but I’ve definitely had my own challenges or friction points within my own family, with navigating things with my sisters and things like that. And that will have to be fun for another podcast, you know, because it’s, it’s difficult when you when you have no parent, to be in the situation and to help resolve things and say, Hey, this is a dumb argument, let’s move forward, let’s move beyond this. Hug it out, your siblings, you’d love each other, let’s let’s move forward. So you know, there’s, there’s absolutely challenges. Where the, because we don’t have any parent that’s alive to to be to be the parent, right? There’s no one to say, let’s just move forward from here. So I do think you know, that communication after you, you live through someone, significant loss is so important. And also, you know, that because I know that they happen, that you know, these, these the arguments that you could have with a sibling, a parent after you live through something, after you live through significant loss. It’s just like, you know, that’s life and those things will happen. It’s inevitable. But the communication, having a good line of communication is just so important. Because in the end, like, there’s no there’s no argument, there’s no friction point, that’s, that’s worth it. Because, you know, we’re all we’re all going to die eventually. And I think that having being able to navigate you know, those difficult conversations after or just those friction points is so important because in the end, I really believe that it’s, it’s more worthwhile to be there for each other than have some argument calls from whatever it may be, but as a result of your loss or grief and to be able to sort of move forward and whether you know, I’m speaking very broadly here but whether there be resolve insight, but be able to just accept the differences and move forward and still be there for that person. Regardless if you don’t see eye to eye and things like that because that’s what’s so important after you live after you lose someone to You to be there for the people that you love and be able to support them and, and move forward with those people.
Victoria Volk 50:05
Well, and the key thing to remember is that everybody lost. And everybody had their own unique individual relationship to with that person. And so yeah, bring their own personal pain and their own personal perspective.
Dan Goldberg 50:21
And with friends as well, you know, because I think, I think sometimes with friends, it’s like it’s not looked as the same, but I think it’s a little bit like discredited where sometimes people don’t put as much weight on it, like, oh, you lost, you lost your friend, you know, but that person might have such an that person might have had such an impact. This this woman that I was close with, while I was in college, she had cancer, but she didn’t really let anyone know. And I was on Facebook, well, like this is last year scrolling and I found out she had passed away. And I was really close with her. I actually, she was an older woman. Her name was Barbara and she lost her dad growing up young. And she ended up her husband ended up passing on earlier early in life. And I went to Syracuse and she was head of like alumni relations. And she was she was an older woman, I want to say maybe late 60s, early 70s, I ended up telling her all about experience camps after my dad died. She really like was there for me while I was in school. And I had this very unique special relationship with this woman. And I ended up bring her to, to experience hands on like, You got to come you got to come and she actually, one year, she just came to like, see what was going on. In the following year, she ended up volunteering, and she was like an out of bunk, cabin counselor, but she got the full experience. And she was able to help the kids who who were there. And we had a special relationship. And I ended up finding very unexpectedly that she had passed. And it it really it really like it was like sort of like a someone hit me in the back of the head with a hammer I wasn’t expecting it, I sort of we would we she would let me know if she was in New York City. And we try to find time for like, grab a coffee or something like that. But we weren’t talking as much as we used to just because life right? And not not to say that, you know, I’m experiencing, I was I was I was grieving again. And I was experiencing this loss in that moment. And for the days to come, maybe the weeks come I felt it. And I was I was feeling the pain associated that I had lost this person and we sort of lost touch. And I would have loved to check in more. And I wish I had said hey, how you doing more often and things like that. So you know, it’s like, I definitely think that the grief is early like grief with friend sometimes is discredited, or there’s not as much weight on it. But that’s, you know, there’s there’s loss and grief in so many ways, obviously outside of just physically, the death of someone. But you know, I think that that’s something that people need to I hope people can understand and be there for people who have lost a friend because they have, like you said, their own their own experience with those people as well.
Victoria Volk 52:58
Well, and we all have like our person, right? Or maybe our group of people who are in our inner circle who know our dreams who support our dreams. And those are important people in our lives. And so to your point, well, it’s just a friend, you have plenty of friends, you know, people can say sensitive things without really understanding what your relationship was 100% I’m interested in learning now, how all of these experiences has shifted your perspective and how you live your life now.
Dan Goldberg 53:33
Yeah. So I would say that. I feel like we definitely got into it over the last hour around how I evolved and how my life evolved. After from when my dad died when my mom ended up ultimately dying. And I know I already touched upon it, but my mom’s eulogy, I gave this whole talk around, you know, sort of finding your glory, finding the glory in life and not focusing on the Y but focusing on the what, what, what are you going to do now as a result of the circumstances that that you’re in. And I would say in many ways, that is the guiding light, it’s sort of is the guiding principle in my own life. I wake up every single day, and I think about knowing that I too am going to die. How do I want to spend the limited time that I’m given on this earth? And I focus on mapping my life towards those things, to doing those things to prioritizing those things. And it’s very interesting how we actually started with the beginning of the conversation talking about my aunt, and talking about like the how when your child when they’re young, it’s very hard to comprehend that and understand what death really is and that it’s that that the person is gone forever and that it’s it’s very hard to understand and comprehend all those things. Now, it’s like death is death is a piece of me and it’s that something that I carry with me every single day. Where I really focus on knowing like knowing that I too am going to die. How do I want to spend my time knowing that I am going to die, like, put my phone down and be present be in this moment, knowing that I am going to die, appreciate the fact that I just woke up and was had the ability to put my feet on the ground when I woke up and that I’m alive, healthy, and able and that I have opportunity in front of front of me knowing that I too, am going to die. Where do I want to spend my time? How do I want to focus my time and all that, and that that’s sort of like, like, death is sort of the guiding light in my life almost, you know, knowing knowing that death. And it’s not, it’s not in a panicky way. It’s not in an impatient way. Just that knowing that like, in a very real authentic way that death is a part of life. It’s sort of the thing that it is the thing that makes me question like, is the day I’m about to live, the day I actually want to live, and if not, I’m going to make the changes. But if it is then great. And that’s sort of how I now map my life. And the things I want to do, and the impact I want to have, and where I want to spend my my time professionally. Personally, how I want to impact the world, it’s all comes through the lens of just knowing that that death is a very real part of life.
Victoria Volk 56:30
So what do you look forward to?
Dan Goldberg 56:33
Everything, everything. I mean, I think, I think that it’s like, I look forward to everything, it’s like, I have this deep appreciation for the smallest things. And I have, I have like a little gratitude practice where I write in the journal every day, three things I’m grateful for. But I would say even like the, like, the first thing I write every single day is health, just like a given. But I really do like when I wake up in the morning, and I’m able to turn over and put my feet on the floor. I’m already like I’ve won today because I know that there are people who can’t do this, and I’m lucky and I’m blessed. And I’m, I’m fortunate that I’m that I am capable, and that I’m able to do this and I’m, I’m I’m I’m so lucky that I don’t have to think about my, my white blood cells, my red blood cells, I’m so lucky that I have. And you know, it goes beyond just cancer like Lucky. I’m so lucky that I don’t I have a safe place to sleep, I have food that I can that I can go and eat at any point I have safety, security, food, friends, family like life is life is good. I have I had a friend who lived through significant loss. And he wants told me you know that he believes that life is rigged in our favor. And it’s because of things just like the fact that we’re able to have this this podcast right now that we’re both over zoom, we’re not physically together, where we’re doing this from different parts of, of the country, and we’re able to sit here and we both live through significant loss, we both have lived through our own our own tragedies and, and but yet, we’re still here having this like beautiful conversation around the worst moments in our life and how they shaped our life and how they’ve shaped our perspective. And it’s because of moments like that, that, you know, that we are we are in many ways lucky, you know most besides the human race, I don’t think any any other animals capable of sitting here and actually understanding and comprehending and having this conversation this dialogue around the worst moments in our life and how they’ve shaped our perspective. And that in and of itself is like a beautiful thing. And I think that since he’s told me that it is something that I really do embrace and believe that life despite what I’ve lived through the fact that I’m still here right now having in this moment is all it is like enough and it’s that and it and it’s moments like these where I realized that life truly is rigged in my favor and that there is so much to be grateful for and that there is so much to live for. And as my mom put it there’s so there’s plenty of glory and that doesn’t mean you know that I’m walking around sitting here like all sunshine and butterflies and life’s perfect Whoo. It’s you know, there’s there’s plenty of hardship and there will be more hardship i remember turning my mom when when we when she moved to hospice care of telling her like, you know, life is at least now I this was the lowest low I’ll never hit a lower low again. And she told me don’t be so naive. There will be there’ll be worse things in our life that will that can and will happen. And you know, I think that true and it’s funny too. Now looking back even just from saying that, how different that is from when my dad first tried to shelter me from the painful realities of life. But, you know, it’s like, there’s so much truth to that, just because you’ve lived through one loss just because you’ve had heartbreak, whatever your losses, whether it be a job or relationship, there will be worse things in our life that will ultimately come. And that’s just a part of that’s a part of living. But there is plenty of there’s there’s so many beautiful things and so much to wake up and live for. And I think that death has given me this perspective that there will always be bad. It’s inevitable, but there’s equally so much good, and so much, so much great to live for. And that sort of I guess where that is, that is where I, I sit, I guess now, looking back on what I’ve lived through, and how I how I live my life today,
Victoria Volk 1:00:52
That can be a really depressing thought, you know, when you think of people, I just want to elaborate on this. Because when people have experienced something that they think is the worst, right, the worst has already happened. And can get really wrapped up in that emotion of that thinking the worst has already happened. And they can get very depressed and down and things like that. But to have the awareness and the cognitive understanding that, well, gee, there really could be other worse things that can happen to me. It’s like, well, what’s the point of living? Right? But the importance of that. And I think the distinction of your story is that it’s who you surround yourself with. And that is why it’s so important to find community that you don’t grieve alone, so that when those future things happen and occur, you have a foundation of support. And you sought out therapy, which is which is amazing for a 20 something to choose that for himself and a young male, right. So it’s, it’s the action that you’ve taken, and the love that you’ve allowed yourself to receive, that will help you face those future challenges.
Dan Goldberg 1:02:07
Yeah, I really, you know, I said it before, like my, my extended family, but certainly without a doubt the, the community that I’ve found and surrounded myself with is I wouldn’t be where I am today with without, without those people and without that community. I definitely, I definitely would say though, I could see how it could be depressing, you know, but it is it is very, and it’s not to say that there’s like a right way or a wrong way. I think with grief loss can’t like can’t like any of this stuff. You know, it’s like it’s messy. Yeah, it’s very messy. And I think that there’s no right or wrong way. If if if when someone you love is diagnosed with cancer, if you want to turn to, to God and religion great, like you need to find what will what will give you the support that you need to sort of support those people and move forward. And there’s like I said, there’s no right or wrong way. But I do think that there is Yeah, I just think like I rather live in grounded in reality, knowing that life Life is messy. Right? There’s no, there’s no guarantee that tomorrow will come for any of us. And I think I think that and I know we didn’t really touch upon it on this episode, but like, I think the intentionality and intentional with your life is so important. And I think that that’s one of like the greatest gifts that grief has shown me or given me. I think, again, like it’s not like I’m over here thinking, life’s sunshine and butterflies and everything is amazing. But I’m also not down here where it’s like, this sucks, and there’s no purpose and it’s, it’s that I’m very intentional with how and where I choose to spend my time now as a result, knowing that, you know, tomorrow’s not guaranteed I think about it with like, even my my dog or my, my wife, it’s like, put the phone down and go out on go out on a date. And just be with one another because we have this moment here right now. And we should embrace this moment because it’s it is just the reality that we don’t know that there is no guarantee that that moment will be available again next week or tomorrow. And you know, that’s that’s why it’s very frustrating when you see people who are so focused on you know, maybe stuck stuck in their phone just texting away, and they’re not physically wherever they wherever they are, whether it be a wedding or a hike or with friends. Or if you’re getting like stuck on focused on little things in life that don’t really have grand that don’t have like significant impact in your life and you’re so focused on the stupid the stupid thing. It’s like, you know, we don’t know that tomorrow is a guarantee. So just be physically be be be here, be here right now. And embrace them embrace this moment and You know, going going back to just be be intentional. That’s like the one thing that I try to encourage anyone and everyone, if you’re, wherever you are in your life, I really don’t believe that, like, age has an impact with intentionality. I think if you’re in your early 20s, try to try to develop a way to become intentional with how and where you want to spend your time. If you’re in your early 50s Like, and you’ve been living your life a certain way for the last the last 50 years, you if you want to make changes, because you now recognize something, you know, be the intentionality I think is so important in in our own lives. And I think that that’s, that’s like the, that is one of the biggest things that grief has has shown me.
Victoria Volk 1:05:38
I love that. There’s a quote I actually just wrote came across it yesterday, and I wrote it down, it says, if it’s out of your hands, it deserves freedom from your mind to like that. I even knew Ruth said that. And that’s just like, that’s with worry, that’s with, you know, anything that’s out of our hands, right? Like, what will happen tomorrow is out of our hands. It’s what’s going to happen is going to happen. And but we what we have control over is the actions we take. Right? Yeah, intention we bring to each day. Intention has come up a lot for me lately.
Dan Goldberg 1:06:18
Yeah, like intention where? I, you know, I, I’m curious if you see this or from like, I think a lot of people especially, I think both young and old, I don’t think it really skews one way or another. I think older people, I think young people aren’t intentional. I think prior to my dad dying, I certainly wasn’t, you know, like, the most important thing in my life prior to my dad dying, was going to that college party getting drunk and having a good time. I had zero intention in my life. After my dad died. It sort of opened things up. When my mom died. I became Mr. intention that was really like my focus. And I think if you’re young, and you start to focus on like, how do I want to spend my time on this earth, it can sort of push you in a direction because I think when you’re young, you’re told typically, like, You should do this, or you have a teacher, a professor, a friend, a family, friend, a parent tell you, I did this. So you should do that. So there’s, there’s not really this intentionality when you’re young, because you’re just sort of following what you’re told. And I think as you get older, you have your sort of mindset set up that this is how life works. This is, this is what my life looks like, I’ve done this for the last this all you know, I’ve done this for the last two decades. I’m not going to change my life now. And I think as you get older, you don’t necessarily have that intention as well, because you get set in your own ways. So I think like everyone can do a better job at being more intentional. And, again, for me, it’s like, that was the gift that grief gave me this understanding of intentionality, and how it can shape my life differently now as a result, but I think everyone can, can do a better job with being more intentional.
Victoria Volk 1:07:51
I almost think intention might be the antidote for fear. Because how many of us, us, I’m in my 40s, you know, 40s 50s and older, don’t make those changes, or are afraid to make those changes, right. I think fear is a huge driver for a lot of people. And so would you rather have fear be your driver? Or would you rather have intention? Be Your driver?
Dan Goldberg 1:08:20
Yeah it isn’t. You know, that. The other thing? That’s funny, is that just just about fear specifically about fear, it’s like, then you think about it through the lens of of grief and loss. You know, it’s like.
Victoria Volk 1:08:32
End of dying, right?
Dan Goldberg 1:08:33
Yeah. So you know, that’s, that’s where I go back to where it’s like, well, knowing that I could die, what do I really have to lose? What am I really scared of? Is there really, should I really be fearful right now? Or is it or, and, you know, it’s, it’s like, I don’t think there are things that are scary, and you, you shouldn’t be scared. If you want to make some drastic change in life. It might be it would be weird if you weren’t. But you you need to be able to get to a point where I’m scared, but I’m going to do it anyways. So I think that’s, you know, it’s like, those are the things those are the little, the light, I think that grief sort of gives you.
Victoria Volk 1:09:07
And if you change your intention to getting out of your comfort zone, I need to stretch myself, I need to expand like this is going to stretch me this is going to grow me this is going to elevate me in some way. Right? We don’t grow. And if we stay in our comfort zone 100% I think that’s what grief really does is it it just it blows us up. It just blows up our world in our life. And it’s just a matter of gathering up the pieces and putting it back together but with intention of what we want that to look like going forward.
Dan Goldberg 1:09:42
100% agreed.
Victoria Volk 1:09:44
Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Dan Goldberg 1:09:48
No, I think I really enjoyed this conversation. And I think we covered we covered a lot over the last hour plus and yeah, any other questions you have for me?
Victoria Volk 1:09:58
Where can people find you if they’d like to connect with you and listen to your podcast.
Dan Goldberg 1:10:02
Yeah, I am on Instagram @danlevgoldberg, D A N L E V Goldberg, G O L D B E R G. And you can connect with me at bitsofgold.com.
Victoria Volk 1:10:02
And I’ll put the links.
Dan Goldberg 1:10:19
Awesome, and I’m on LinkedIn as well. I think it’s just, I think, I think I’m just Daniel Goldberg on LinkedIn.
Victoria Volk 1:10:24
I’ll put the link in the show notes.
Dan Goldberg 1:10:27
Okay, cool.
Victoria Volk 1:10:28
All that you mentioned. And I thank you so much for being here and for living with intention and bringing that intention to the work that you’re doing, at the camps to wherever life takes you moving forward. So,
Dan Goldberg 1:10:44
Appreciate that.
Dan Goldberg 1:10:46
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Parenting, Podcast |
Melissa Reilly | A Longing That Never Leaves
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Melissa’s episode embodies several different ways one may experience grief. And as she shares each story, she also provides insight into loss from her perspective as a clinical psychologist.
At age 4, her older sister (age 7) died of leukemia. Melissa’s earliest memories are related to her sister battling leukemia for eighteen months and being bounced from house to house while her parents were away with her older sister for her healthcare.
And, once her sister died, life went on as if it had never happened. Many peers didn’t even know she had a sister until she was in high school. Her sister’s death was something that was not talked about.
Once a young adult, grief was once again a part of her life when her grandfather passed away. It would be the first time she and her sister would begin to talk about their grief from the past and present with each other.
However, grief would knock on Melissa’s door not once, not twice, but five more times. When Melissa was 25, her mother died unexpectedly at age 51 of a heart attack. Even more heartbreaking in that loss was that she and her mother had had a falling out eight months before her mother’s passing, only adding to her grief.
Seven months later, her younger sister of a pulmonary embolism. She would then experience three miscarriages before welcoming a healthy baby boy after a challenging and trying pregnancy, where she managed to carry her son to 36 weeks gestation.
Melissa goes on to share how not all grief requires medication. She provides insight into her belief around this (a belief we both share) and the four women personality types that women (moms without moms, in particular) would benefit from having in their lives.
This is an episode that moms without moms (due to a myriad of circumstances) would benefit from hearing, and anyone who has experienced devastating loss or trauma as a child.
RESOURCES:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Melissa Reilly. She is a clinical psychologist, parent, coach and mom without a mom. Although grief had been a part of Melissa’s life from the age of four, she was shocked to find that a resurgence of grief would be a part of her birth experience. Through her personal and professional life, she has come to recognize that moms without a mom experienced grief during the years postpartum and beyond, even if they don’t recognize it. She’s passionate about helping moms without a mom heal through grief, build community, feel joy and motherhood and move from feelings of isolation, insecurity and overwhelm to a place of confidence and resilience. Thank you so much for being here. And for your time.
Melissa Reilly 0:48
It is my pleasure.
Victoria Volk 0:50
We’re gonna dig right in. And I’m interested always to talk to other child Grievers like myself, because we have a lifelong relationship with grief that a lot of people don’t experience or can’t even understand or comprehend or wrap their head around. And so your grief experience was even much younger than my own mind was around. My dad got sick or wound when I was six. And so then he passed away within 18 months, but yours started when you were four? Yes, so let’s start there.
Melissa Reilly 1:28
Sure, sure. So I was born into a family, I was the middle child of three girls, and both my parents were living in together. And when I was two and a half, three years old, my older sister was diagnosed with leukemia. And so back in the 1970s, leukemia was almost always terminal. I mean, it’s still extremely dangerous and scary diagnosis now, but back then there was there was very little reason for hope. So my parents did the best they can and provided as much treatment as they could, for my older sister, we lived in a rural upstate New York community. And so the best treatment that was nearby was in New York City. So my parents would spend lots of time in New York City with my older sister, as was appropriate. And then my younger sister and I, she was 18 months younger than I, you would be in the care of anybody that was able to care for us. And then unfortunately, after, you know, a year and a half battle with leukemia, my sister passed. And I was at the age of four when this occurred. And so my earliest memories include trips to New York City, being masked back with nobody was, and just the, you know, everything that came along with that, that long process. And then, of course, the the grieving process. In fact, one of my earliest memories is a dream that I had after my sister passed.
Victoria Volk 3:14
Blank, can you talk about them?
Melissa Reilly 3:17
Absolutely. So as you can imagine, a four year old does not have a very strong understanding of what death means, right? So I was very used to my sister, and my parents being gone for periods of time, and then they would come back and things would feel happy or good or safe, right. And so it was common for me to ask, you know, my first question is, when’s Kim coming home? When’s Kim coming home? Right? And so my parents would always answer well, you know, the day of her funeral, which my sister and I were not at. I remember, you know, the ride home in the car. And just playing in the backseat with my sister and then asking, you know, the obligatory question, when’s Kim coming out? And there was silence. And it was pretty obvious that that something was wrong. And so I don’t remember who answered it was likely my mother who said that she died. And I remember not knowing what to feel, knowing I should feel something right. But all I could think about was wanting to get home so I could keep playing. I was four. Right. So that’s a typical response. But so I didn’t quite understand. And then I would keep asking my mother that question over and over. So when’s Kim coming up? Well, she died. How do you remember, you know, we talked about that? Oh, yeah, I know she’s dead. But When is she coming home? So really kind of struggle with that. So one night I had this the stream and my sister when she was ill were this night gown that I remember, you know, it was way too that blue flowers anyway, So in this dream, she was in the psych round, and she came down, I was in my garage, she came down kind of from the sky. And, you know, greeted me. And we started to play. And she’s like, I said, Oh, good, good. You’ve come home. And she’s like, No, no, I’m going to take you to where I live. So she took my hand, and we floated up, you know, to my four year old version of heaven, which was puffy clouds and little sheep. And, again, we played for a little while. And then she said, Okay, it’s time for you to go home. And I was like, okay, so she brought me back down. I’m like, great, you’re staying. And she said, No, you live here. I live there. But it’s okay. We’ll see each other again someday. But not now. You stay, I have to go. And it was extremely profound. Because at that point, I stopped asking the questions. And I know that to be true, because I’ve since looked in, you know, my baby book that was barely written, except the few passages that talked about it. Melissa is having a hard time. And then all of a sudden, Melissa seems to be better. She stopped asking. So that was just always there. But you know, I, you know, that dream, I always found comforting that idea that that she was okay. And she was up in the puffy clouds with the sheep. My version of heaven.
Victoria Volk 6:27
How old was your sister than when she passed away?
Melissa Reilly 6:30
She just turned seven. And unfortunately, in fact, the day before we’re recording right now, yesterday, was her birthday. So she would have been the D52.
Victoria Volk 6:45
What do you think when you look back in hindsight now, as a professional, doing the work that you do, in knowing about grief that you do? What do you think could have been handled? How do you think it could have been handled differently? For you and your younger sister?
Melissa Reilly 7:06
Well, that was a great, great question, because of a number of things. One, my parents did the best they could. But my mom was so determined, right? To make sure that my sister’s death was not going to impact me and my younger sister’s life. So they just plowed forward as if nothing happened. And again, it was with the best of intentions, right? We had just all suffered, and she didn’t want us to suffer anymore. So a couple of days after, you know, a couple of days after my sister died, my younger sister turned three. And my mother had a birthday party for in our house, right? So she’s, like, just buried her oldest daughter, and now she’s having all these, you know, little toddlers around for birthday. I mean, she did everything she could. And then, you know, I started kindergarten at the age of four, because she wasn’t gonna let anything stop me. Right. So, but But clearly, you know, I wasn’t ready. And then, you know, again, with the best of intentions, it was so painful, but we never talked about that at Victoria, our family, just one day she was here. And when they she wasn’t, and life went on as if nothing happened. And we literally never talked about it. We never talked about my older sister. And we never talked about the experience of her dying. And so what happened and I realized this, at the time, until it was much later that what that did is that created the sense that death was something that was so terrible, you could not even talk about it, or it would destroy you. And, and I didn’t realize that until I was in my young 20s. I was blessed off for my grandparents lived until my adulthood. And me and my younger sister, were talking at the time in which my my first grandfather was having major medical problems and was becoming clear that he was at the end of his life. And so we were talking and both of us we’re expressing our fear of him dying. And she made this this comment, I don’t think I’ll survive it. That’s pretty startling response. Right? And so that so a man in his 70s, who’s lived a full life having a natural death, right? I don’t think I will survive it. I don’t know how I will get through this. And so thankfully, I was in therapy at the time, right? And I mentioned that to my psychologist, and she was stunned. She was like, wow, that’s that’s, that’s not a usual response to a normal death. And I was like, really? Well, why not have it? It’s that hard, but how are we going to be okay. And it was at that point that we were able to discover that that unintentional thing that my parents said by never talking about it right to me Let us have a happy normal childhood. What it did is it created this undeniable terror of death. Right? which thankfully, you know, worked through, you know, that’s not an issue anymore. In fact, I’m very comfortable with death. But you know, this idea that your children don’t remember, or children don’t grieve in the same way as the so maybe that’s your children do not grieve in the same way. But the profound nature of childhood grief is still present and evident. We just don’t have the language in the prefrontal cortex to process it in the same way as adults do. So,
Victoria Volk 10:41
Oh, so much to unpack there. I had a similar experience, like it just wasn’t talked about. I take that back. And this isn’t to vilify parents, right? You know, because I’ve had guests where they just want to be clear, like, they did what they could, they did what they knew, right? And that’s what I talk about all the time, as we resort to what we know. Yes. And if we didn’t receive this education, of how to address grief, and how to process it, and all of these things that I talk about on a regular basis, we resort to what we know, and we don’t know what we don’t know. Right. And it does create a lasting impact in a negative way, it just does when we don’t take ownership of learning this stuff. And that was, you know, a lot of my experience in a lot of ways, too, but a little different, of course, because my situation was different. But yeah, not talking about it. Children will create their own stories. Yes. You know, what I talk about a lot, too, is how grief, we kind of grow up with grief as a child Grievers. And it changes with us, and we take us everywhere we go. And so it’s always there. How did that change for you? I’m especially curious into your teenage years.
Melissa Reilly 12:04
Well, I, you understandably, so became quite depressed at the age of 13. I mean, it was clearly genetic, in my, in my family history anyway, and growing up with grieving parents, you know, has an impact. But I remember, you know, becoming a teenager and just becoming utterly, you know, depressed and feeling this intense sense of something missing, and just something wrong with me, and just never, never enough. And, you know, again, parents did the best they could, right, but, but they were impacted by their own grief experience. And so part of then what I learned to do was try and be the best that I could be right, to make them happy. without ever knowing I was doing that. It just became part of who I was. and AM, you know, I mean, I don’t know that I’d be the person I am today, if it wasn’t for the experiences that occurred early on, but in adolescence, always needing to be what others wanted me to be, you know, which can become quite problematic, as you can imagine, always trying to make people happy, and just internalizing all those feelings of bad thought being good, never good enough, and just miserable, and not really feeling like there was any place for me to talk about those things. Again, I think my mother would be horrified to hear that that’s how I felt. But but that that is how I felt right and hiding her process from me to the best ability that she could only meant there wasn’t an openness about it, which meant, I never felt that permission to be open about it. And, you know, it was an unusual experience. Nobody, I went to a small little school, nobody that I knew had siblings that had died. I wasn’t really exposed to other child Grievers. In fact, interesting story. So my sister would have graduated high school two years above me, and when her senior year would have been one of the people that gratefully took took us in, during that time was aware, right that I had an older sister, in fact, the same grade, as her oldest daughter was. So that’s one of the ways that we were connected, because my sister did go to kindergarten periodically and a little bit of first grade when she wasn’t in the hospital or when she wasn’t, you know, in danger. So there was a little bit of awareness there. But anyway, so So she said, Oh, your sister would graduate. We should include her picture, you know, in the senior picture section. So, you know, we got this picture, which was, you know, again, that that quintessential picture that’s always in your head it right that the one that’s always given. And for her it was right before her her final relapse until it was like when she looked her best at her oldest picture. So that was put in the yearbook. And it was, it was beautiful. It was a full page tribute right of this little seven year old, barely seven year old little girl and her name. And I remember when the yearbooks came out, I had a whole bunch of people come up to me and ask, Who is this little girl? She was your name? Like, nobody knew I had a sister, like, oh, well, that was my older sister. So then I had to keep you know retell the story. And what struck me Victoria was how people kept referring to her, that little girl’s your older sister, is the phrase, little girl, because I didn’t see a little girl. And I didn’t realize I never saw a little girl, I only ever saw an older sister. And I didn’t realize that actually, until just a number of years ago about how significant that was, because I could never see my sister through my current lens. I always saw from that lens of the preschooler that the tiny person like always, just constantly, just back through that set of eyes, which means means I was always can go back to that place of early life experience without without knowing it. I mean, it for most of my life, when I looked at the picture, I was startled by how I never saw this little girl ever. I do now thankfully, no, because I’m in a much different place. But it just really struck me as odd.
Victoria Volk 16:43
There’s so much in that because when you don’t have anyone to relate to you, you do feel like you’re all alone. And I relate to much of what you shared small school, same thing, like I didn’t know anybody that lost a parent and adults didn’t know what to do or say and know is we all we just we aren’t taught this stuff, you know, how did this experience? And you know, grief is it’s never just one thing, right? It’s always it’s cumulative, and it’s cumulative ly negative, and I have not yet met a single Griever, who has not had multiple grieving experiences, even though like you said, in your information that you would submit it to me, you just don’t even realize it. And so, what have been some other experiences that have informed your life today, work you do?
Melissa Reilly 17:41
Well, um, like I said, I was I was blessed to have all four of my grandparents until adulthood. And then, you know, I started to lose, you know, I lost my first grandfather, and that was it an end of life death after a fulfilled life, you know, with us having a good relationship. So, with regards to grief experiences, it was, it was natural and normal. You know, there was nothing complicated about it, other than the sadness of the loss. So I was very thankful to have that experience, because it was, in many ways, a healing, corrective experience for me, to know what it was like to grieve as an adult, when everything was, was healthy and appropriate. And then unfortunately, not long after that I had a series of losses. So my mother passed away at the age of 25. I was 25. She was 51. Wow. Yeah. So very, very young died from a heart attack. Suddenly, my little sister bless her heart died seven months after my mom passed away. So those two losses were were very significant and very difficult. And a complicating factor for my mom’s dying was the fact that we had a falling out eight months prior to her death. And that falling out, never was completely healed. So so we were pretty much estranged for those last eight months. So that made that difficult. And then, you know, my younger sister had mental illness, and she was just really struggled, and was in and out of psychiatric hospitals, probably four to five months out of those seven months, you know, not in a row, but in and out, in and out, in and out. And then in supportive housing after my mom passed, unfortunately, I was the one that told my sister, you know, about our mother’s death that my dad had called me when my mom died. And you know, so I went, you know, we lived in different places. I lived in Pennsylvania. I was living here, actually in Pennsylvania. At the time. They were in New York. So I went right up. And then my sister was living in Connecticut. So soon as I got there, you know, we drove to where my sister was living, and she was living in a supported housing community. And so we told the staff members, what was going on and it’s Make sure she was there and to have a staff member present. And my dad just couldn’t do it.
Victoria Volk 20:05
This couldn’t do it. So I did. I needed to tell her and your dad is still living.
Melissa Reilly 20:12
Yes, he is. He is God bless him here. He is. So, you know. And then, you know, when my sister died, seven months later she was in the she was in the hospital when it happened, pulmonary embolism Go figure. But yet the doctor called me because he couldn’t do it. I get a call in the middle of the night, the psychiatrist in a mental hospital telling my my sister had died. Again, yeah, drove up to my dad. And then so then he was just beside himself. And, you know, he’s like, I’ll never forget, his comment was like, I can’t put everybody through this again, we’re not going to have any funeral or anything. I said, No, that’s not acceptable. You know, you’re not putting anybody through anything, she died. And so we had funeral and, and did all that. But I needed, you know, to arrange it and make it all happen. And again, I’m not angry at my, my dad. I mean, the, you know, this was the second child he had buried and it was only seven months after he buried his wife. So oh,
Victoria Volk 21:28
It’s amazing that he is still alive, you know, in a lot of ways because grief, it takes a toll. It’s exhausting. And is there a part of you that maybe isn’t even surprised in a way about your mom’s sudden death? And even your sister’s like sudden death?
Melissa Reilly 21:46
No, no, not at all. I mean, it’s just a lot. You know, my sister’s best friend when she was in seventh died in a house fire, you know, and both my parents were there, because they were part of the community ambulance and fire squad. I mean, so just so so much that and then, you know, my dad remarried and his second wife died after 15 years. So we buried her. And now he’s married to another woman. But But yeah, it’s just, yeah, yeah. So she, she died after my son was born, my, but my son doesn’t really have a memory of her because he was too young.
Victoria Volk 22:22
And that’s just it, right? Like these experiences. Never leave us. Because then you become a mother. And then all of these insecurities come up. And all of these moments that you don’t have your sisters, and you don’t have your mom and you don’t have these shared experiences. And this is where people, I think, kind of, I mean, I fell into the trap of thinking, Gosh, I guess I’m just here to suffer my entire life because it was just loss, trauma, loss trauma. And you can get easily in that downward spiral. And I kind of want to circle back a moment to where when your sister older sister did pass, because and why I asked how it kind of showed up for you as a teenager, because what I’ve come to realize lately is there’s always there’s like two camps of kids, child Grievers. It’s those that act out anger, slipping grades, go down a different path. And then there’s the other that don’t want to rock the boat. Don’t know, boundaries are people pleasers try to be the best at everything they do. You know, there’s two kinds of kids that are child gravers. And what’s interesting to me, and what is what society does, and really what is damaging to children is that in my opinion, is that we look at these children like you and I, who wanted to be the best we could at everything we did and had this underlying perfectionism about us and didn’t want to rock the boat. And, you know, everything I just said, and then the children that other children that are deemed as problem, children, and neither really received the support that they need neither. No, but the children that choose a different path. This is where I’m not surprised that we are a society of addiction. Right?
Melissa Reilly 24:27
Absolutely. My sister struggled with addiction terribly. And, you know, it was a way that she coped with the mental illnesses that she experienced. And just, you know, I mean, she encountered death she was barely old enough to talk right you know, I mean, her own life was was filled with it. Their own. It was just terrible. You are a licensed right? You’re a licensed psychologist.
Victoria Volk 24:54
Okay, so in your professional opinion now, was it grief that your younger sister Did she have like a diagnosed?
Melissa Reilly 25:03
Yeah, my grief, grief was part of both of our lives. Right. And, you know, kind of fueled the development of personality. She also definitely experienced she had bipolar one. And there were times when, when when there would be, you know, a psychotic process to it as well. Now, would she have had that had our life been filled with grief from the beginning? I don’t know, I think both of our lives would have been extremely different, right. But you know, both of us through our childhood, we experienced our emotions through physical problems, right. I had migraines that were so bad at the age of 13, I was taking in China medicine, and I was the only child I knew that would go to sleepovers with her heating pad, because I would get leg pain so bad, just all these weird physical things that weren’t physical. I mean, they were I mean, they were true physical symptoms, right. But they were caused by emotional distress. So the brain, as you know, forms over 25 years, our brain isn’t done growing until 25 years old. And so when it is flooded continuously by the stress chemicals, and constantly in this place of hyper vigilance, our whole physiology is impacted, and our whole sense of self is impacted. And our whole ability to regulate emotions is impacted. And so your mental illness and grief become intertwined in many ways. And so I don’t think they could have been teased apart for her or myself, or, you know, my aunt, my, you my mom was an only child. My father had one sibling who was 15 years his junior, so she was closer in age to us. She’s more like a sister to me. And yet she was kind of this last child also, because, you know, nobody talks about my family. Certainly, you know, for her, it was like nothing ever happened. And so in more recent years, thankfully, her and I actually been able to talk about what it was like living, you know, our childhoods and the ramifications of that one experience or sequence of experiences and how it impacted us, you know forever.
Victoria Volk 27:18
Well, and that’s just it, right? You can have one event, but the ripples of it is everlasting. Yes. And so as a mom, now, you have one child? Well, I
Melissa Reilly 27:32
Well, I have two sons, my oldest came into my life when he was three years old when I married his father. And then I birth our younger son, and he’s the only child that I gave birth to.
Victoria Volk 27:45
And so what I know, you spoke a lot, you spoke of that in your information you submitted in So how has that you know, and that shapes a lot of the work that you do and the people you work with? So can we talk about that?
Melissa Reilly 27:59
Absolutely. So, you know, it had been 15 years since I had my that, you know, my mom had had died, I you know, was married now and unfortunately, had three miscarriages prior to the pregnancy with my son. So just kept experiencing grief up to a degree, right?
Melissa Reilly 28:20
And I was just blown away. I was like, you know, and I knew a miscarriage was was common, right? One in five pregnancies end in miscarriage. So it is pretty common, but by the time you have three, that’s pretty rare. And so at this point, I was like, Oh, my goodness, what is going on. And we are in the process of finding that out when I became unexpectedly and unintentionally pregnant again, and was terrified. And really, as that pregnancy progressed, I knew I was extremely high risk these feelings of longing, again, that I hadn’t had for a while this longing for someone who is missing resurfaced, and was just overwhelming and continuous. So now it was all of these people. I felt like I was missing as well as the fear of losing another and I was having these distorted thoughts that I wanted a girl but having a girl was frightening to me because all the girls in my life died. So the men seem to be okay, but females not so good. So, I went into labor with my son at 26 weeks until the remainder of my pregnancy was either in the hospital or in bed and back and forth, getting shots and doing all kinds of things to sustain that pregnancy. which thankfully, despite only being given a 10% odds of maintaining the pregnancy, I carried him until exactly 37 weeks. Wow, gave birth and and, you know, he was healthy. What we discovered late, he’s got some neurological Oh issues based on some of the shots that were given, which had to be given. But you know, in general, he’s doing amazingly well. But it was at that point during the pregnancy and then giving birth that I realized just how alone I was and how unprepared I felt, and how isolated and insecure and what an imposter and this was coming from someone who was just days shy of her 38th birthday, who owns clinical practice, who taught Child Development at the graduate level. So I had all these resources behind me, I was very confident in who I was, as a woman as a professional. And I was so blown away with insecurity, and isolation and overwhelmed and not knowing what I was doing by this little infant. And I felt like I didn’t have anybody to ask, because I felt such an intense feeling of shame over not knowing what to do. And nobody understood. You know, I was getting all these platitudes. Well, moms feel that way. Sure. Yeah. All moms Yeah, that’s normal. That’s normal. That’s normal. Well, it isn’t. It isn’t normal to be a mom, without your mother, and to be going through all of this. And that’s why I’m doing this because I know now my son is now 11. And I still look back on those first few years. And it still pains me by just what a difficult time it was for me. And it saddens me that that my son’s first few years of life involved all of that. And it saddens me for me to write it was just such an intensely difficult and troubling time, and nobody was talking about it, nobody is talking about it, nobody talks about it. So so that’s why past couple years, I made the decision, you know, in my clinical practice, I was starting to see more moms without a mom. And it became something that I began talking about with them about how different the experience is, and how real that that sense of isolation and lack of community impacts us and how draining it is, and how grief for a mom, you know, either a mom that’s died, or a mom that you don’t have a relationship with. And I can get into that in a few minutes. How that is real, even if you’re not recognizing that as a grief process. And so, after working with a number of moms within you know, my clinical practice, you I realized there was this this real gap that I thought I was well positioned to fill. And so that’s why I began you might my coaching program, specifically designed for moms that have mom this way I can reach a broader audience, right. And so not just those that are coming into my clinical practice, because of mental health issues, but but those that that you know, are from a place of health, and just needing some specific assistance related to mothering is as a mama.
Victoria Volk 33:14
What are three things? Or I don’t know why three came to my mind. Maybe I think I know that you have three things to share. But so three things came to my mind, what three things, tips, suggestions, things that you’ve learned? I don’t know three somethings about your experience, your own experience, and what you try to get across to those you work with in terms of moms without moms.
Melissa Reilly 33:45
Okay, so absolutely, I do have three things. So it was perfect. But first, I want to define who a mom without a mom is. So you are a mom without a mom, if you are a mother who is separated from your own mother, by death, by emotional estrangement, or physical distance. And the reason I include all three of those things is because there are three or three categories is because there are three things that all women in those categories seem to, to share. So one is that grief process I talked about. So you’re either longing for your for your own mom, that can’t be part of your life, or you longing for the presence of a mom who is loving and supportive and can provide guidance. So those moms that are separated from their own mother by emotional strange men, you know of their mother may be alive, but they’re not in their life because of either toxicity, emotional abuse, and so they still don’t have the ability to connect to go to the They have emotional baggage themselves related to memories of their mom, right. And so it creates that difficult piece. And then those mothers that are separated from their mom by physical distance, they also experienced this grief, this this loss, this sense of not having what they thought they would have when they became a mom. And again, that’s somebody there. So, so we experienced grief, right? Second thing is there is difficulty with community. All right, so Mom’s got a mom don’t have the same go to person that other moms have. And so I have some strategies for that as well, right? So Mom’s got a mom need to build strategically their mom community, they can’t just rely on a relationship they they’re comfortable with that being their mother. And then the third thing is mom identity. Right? So who am I as a mom, when I don’t have my mom to mirror myself after. So there’s lots of moms out there whose moms died when they were really young. And so they they may not even have, you know, that role model figure, right? Or they had a mom and their relationship was, you know, not good. And so how do they, you know, figure out who they are, that’s like their mom, but not like their mom. And so all those factors get pulled into play, you know? So those, those are three common threads brief difficulty with community and then struggling with mom identity. All right. So when it comes to grief, specifically, the one of the things that the three things that are really important, right, is first to be able to recognize that what you’re feeling is grief. All right. So, you know, grief, can show itself in many different emotions. So we’ve got sadness, hopelessness, anger, fear, right? We also can experience different ways of thinking, right, this longing, the questions of what would have been those conversations that we never had, or would like to have replaying over and over in our head. And then of course, physical symptoms, right? The the decreased energy, changes in appetite, sleeping too much or too little, right? So we have all those grief experiences that we may or may not label as grief. And I think many moms, particularly in postpartum, get identified as having postpartum depression, which they may or may not have. But the underlying contributing factor is a grief process. So first, we have to recognize right, identify, oh, you know, I’m not necessarily thinking about my mom. But I’m just feeling really kind of alone and isolated, and just yucky. Right? Let me identify that that’s okay. You know, maybe that’s part of grief. So I can normalize it. The second is to be able to express our cultures, you know, all too well, Victoria, is so uncomfortable with grief, right? And so people don’t like when we express our stories, even the happy ones, right, they try and cheer us up, or take us down a different path, right, and distract us, you know, get her mind off of it. While it’s not really helpful, we need safe places to be able to express our stories, right? The good ones, and the not so good ones, then the third is to be able to fill in some of the gaps, right, and that kind of leads into that community piece I was talking about. So filling in the gaps means getting the support in ways that you’re needing that that person that you’ve lost, would have felt or filled. But in different ways.
Victoria Volk 39:07
All good stuff. I can identify with some of what you said there. Even with a postpartum you know, I experienced that after my second but even more so after my third child and it was kind of a struggle of a pregnancy. Yeah, as well. But go see your doctor. Right away. They want to give you a pill, you know? It’s yeah.
Melissa Reilly 39:30
Yes. Oh, my goodness. And you know, don’t get me started on that, that you don’t medicate grief.
Victoria Volk 39:35
Hey, let’s go there. But what I’ve seen in your practice or what have you all this what can what guidance can you give people listening before they take that step? Like how do you? Here’s a good question. Yes, I think it’s good. How do you discern for yourself? Well, you know, I guess I just need to get on something. They’re trying to say that I should you know, you can just a small milligram, right? I don’t know what else to do, I’m overwhelmed with all these feelings and emotions just going to get on this thing. And that’s, you know, they suggest this.
Melissa Reilly 40:09
Well, first and foremost, grief hurts, it is painful. It hurts to the core of your being. And it is normal, I think that is so important to realize that grief is painful, not all hurt, creates wounds that you need to do something about. So for example, if I were to pinch you, it would hurt, but it would not create a wound, the hurt would diminish, and you’d be fine. But if I were to pull off a piece of your skin, that would cause a wound that we then need to treat, you need to do something about. We, in our culture, when we’re exposed to pain, we become distressed, and we fear that it’s creating this wound, something that we need to do something about. And that just is not the case, most of the time, grief hurts, it is supposed to hurt, we have lost someone or something very dear to us, and it is going to hurt however, you have the ability to be okay, even with the hurt, the pain, the hurt itself, is not damaging, and the intensity of that pain is not lasting. In that way, forever. Grief lasts forever, right? I will grieve the entirety of my life. And I know that but my grief experience now feels very different than my grief experienced it at earlier times in my life. So the first and foremost thing is if you are experiencing pain and you are crying, if you are struggling to get out of bed, if you are distracted, and you are in the early stages of grief, that is normal, it is really okay, that most of your energy is going to simply functioning, I want to give you permission to just let all of your energy go to simply functioning. It’s really okay. Now, it is not appropriate to medicate an uncomplicated grief process. Many physicians, medication is their primary tool, right. And they are physicians because they want to help people. And so they give the tool that they have, unfortunately, they give it too quickly, I don’t need a hammer to push in a tack into a piece of cork board. It’s not appropriate. So when you make a decision for medication that should occur. After several other things have happened, you’re one that you’re talking and you’re getting support around your grief process. And that talking can be with friends family, it can be with a you know, professional, so counselors, therapists, psychologists, a coach that specializes in grief healing, and after a period of time, so I’m talking several months, you are still not able to function in basic ways, right? So caring for yourself caring for your loved ones, functioning within your place of occupation, or academics. You know, if you’re in the academic route, that’s when you start to consider medication. But, again, simply because you’re not back to normal self, after, you know, three days, three weeks, three months or a year, that isn’t necessarily a reason to then go on medication, that if you meet criteria for a diagnosable mental illness, then certainly medication could be part of your treatment process. But if that’s the case, then I highly recommend, you know, getting support through counseling, and not just medication, because medication alone is no more efficacious than counseling. In fact, in long term research, medication alone is less efficacious than counseling, because you don’t learn anything simply by taking medication.
Victoria Volk 44:17
And that’s where I think the biggest pieces is you learn you have to learn new knowledge in order to apply it and integrate it into your life. And there is a fabulous quote, I shared it on a different podcast episode, I think, but I got it in my inbox, and I just I just love it. And it talked about how knowledge isn’t power. It’s the application of knowledge that truly empowers us. Yes. And so that’s what we talk a lot about in Grief Recovery. It’s, as you know, in the work that I do with specifically grief, it’s multi layered. And so I would even say, even if it’s not within the Year, give yourself some time. Oh, gosh, it’s layered, and it’s yours, especially if you’ve never had therapy or never addressed anything you’ve got probably decades. Right?
Victoria Volk 45:12
It’s tough to work through.
Melissa Reilly 45:13
Right? And one year is simply the achievement phase. Right? Because it’s the year of firsts. Which doesn’t mean it gets easier or better necessarily, right? For me many times your three was a bigger struggle. And then, you know, depending on your own experiences, right, so, you know, when your child, especially if we start thinking about milestones with your own children as they age, right, so your child turns, for me, you know, the year they turned seven, was was a trigger year, right? It was constantly hyper vigilant about how they were doing, and constantly thinking about, Oh, my God, I can’t imagine their life being over. Oh, my God, I can’t imagine what this was like for my parents, right? So there was a real increase of my own grief process, you know, coming, you know, at a time that knew had nothing to do with their milestones, right? It was just the age in which I had my first grief experience. So so it gets gets triggered at many different times.
Victoria Volk 46:21
And that’s where to I think childhood, grief is very different than opposed to someone who may have first experienced grief as an adult. Is it really is this lifelong relationship?
Melissa Reilly 46:36
Yeah. You know, and I think one of the blessings that I recognize now is that I’m very comfortable with death.
Victoria Volk 46:46
I go there. Yeah,
Melissa Reilly 46:48
I don’t fear it, right. I don’t like it.
Melissa Reilly 46:52
I don’t fear it.
Melissa Reilly 46:55
Which provides me with a sense of comfort, and a sense of resilience. And so I feel very comfortable going to those places of fear and grief, and with the people I work with, right, and I can hear their stories, and I can just sit with it, knowing not only that I am okay. But they are okay to even though their feelings so badly in the moment. And that the best gift I can give them is to honor the space that they’re in. But to change how they feel, to simply honor it and give it the space it deserves.
Victoria Volk 47:39
That probably never was given. Correct for a lot of Grievers. Right. Right. Is that one of the things that grief is taught you?
Melissa Reilly 47:51
Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt.
Victoria Volk 47:55
Is there anything else that you feel? I mean, you share it a lot woven into your personal story and in the work that you’re doing? And, and thank you for the work that you’re doing. Thank you. That’s a really probably an untapped area of grief. I haven’t seen it before, I guess. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Melissa Reilly 48:15
Well, you know, I think one of the biggest things, takeaways today, I want listeners who are moms, that a mom to know is that you are not alone. And that what you’re feeling is real. And significant. And so I encourage you to reach out to talk about it, to let people know that you need support when you need it, you know, to build up a sense of mom community. But most of all right to know that you are okay you’re doing the best that you can. And your mothering may look different than other people’s mothering. And that’s okay, because you’re doing it on your own. And I applaud you.
Victoria Volk 49:00
So do you have a community?
Melissa Reilly 49:03
I do. I have my my personal community. And then I have, you know, my professional community. So my personal community? I include four people, right? So wise woman, this is the woman that can answer your questions and, you know, has lots of information and that could be a professional, right? Your emotional support. So this is the person that will listen. Anytime that you just need to express your emotion. They don’t try to cheer you up. And they don’t give you advice, they just listen.
Victoria Volk 49:35
Like a personal showman.
Melissa Reilly 49:37
Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Reilly 49:39
The fourth is the go getter. So this is the one that can get things done. So you need laundry done. She’ll do it right. So the we all have friends like this that are always busy and always doing something and we think oh my god, I can’t keep up. Right? So the one that you can ask to help at any time. And then the fourth is the late night talker. So this is somebody that you can call Part, basically, anytime. So those are the four people, I recommend all moms, but especially moms, that a mom to have in the corner. And, you know, I have those in my life. And then you know, professionally, you know, I’m building a community of moms without a mom. And so I would invite your listeners, if you’re interested to reach out, you know, offering recall, you know, we can connect, I can hear about your particular situation, right? I encourage people on social media there are, I’m on Instagram. So you know, I talk a lot about moms without a mom. In fact, that’s my my name. My mom said that among you. And so to become part of your community of people that get it.
Victoria Volk 50:47
So people that work with you then get into a, like, you have an online community?
Melissa Reilly 50:53
I will be creating an online community. I haven’t formed that yet. But that’s in the works. So hopefully, I’m hoping by this summer that I’ll have a group, you’ll probably start with a Facebook group, but I will be developing a larger coaching program. But right now I’m doing just individual coaching. And I’m part of that community so.
Victoria Volk 51:21
Wnd where can people find you, for your website?
Melissa Reilly 51:25
My website is momswithoutamom.com. So very easy, and it’s moms with an s some moms without a mom.com.
Victoria Volk 51:36
Nice, and I’ll put the link to your social and website and things in the show notes. And awesome. I love those four kinds of moms to have in your corner. That’s, that’s wonderful. That’s a wonderful tip just for anybody. Yes, really?
Melissa Reilly 51:51
Yes. And no, the strengths are your friends, right? Because none of us are all for those. Right. So if you know that, you know the person, that’s the go getter. She may not be the person that’s great at just listening. And vice versa. I mean, I’m a great listener. And, you know, at this point, I’m, I’m kind of a wise woman as well. I am not the go getter. My laundry stays in my own machine for about a week. So you know, we all have our strengths. So, so, you know, don’t expect one person to do it all.
Victoria Volk 52:24
And that’s the thing, you know, like my, for my podcast, cover art. It’s me on an island with a megaphone. And I didn’t have that sense of community. You know, when I, I was a new mom. I mean, I had some family here, but you know, it’s the girlfriends. You know, it’s I think that’s so important. As a mom took me a long time to develop that and curate that for myself. Yes, yes,
Melissa Reilly 52:52
Yes, yes, it is difficult. And I was an older mother. So you know, my friends all had teenagers and young adults.
Victoria Volk 52:58
Oh, sure. I mean, that’s another grief. Right? Like,
Melissa Reilly 53:01
Yeah, being out of sync? Absolutely. So but yeah.
Victoria Volk 53:07
Oh, good. Thank you so much for everything that you share today. And it’s unfortunate that we have to go through some really difficult challenging times to be in a space of healing, helping others heal. But I wouldn’t change anything. And I don’t suspect you would either.
Melissa Reilly 53:29
No, no, I wouldn’t.
Melissa Reilly 53:31
And not at all. Again, you know, I am the person I am today because of all that I’ve experienced and learned and then what I’ve done with it.
Victoria Volk 53:41
But there can be guilt and shame in that too. It’s like, you know, this is where I want. I had a fleeting thought when you were talking earlier about, you know, the emotions that grief brings, you know, you’re talking about sadness, and anger and all these things, but there’s also joy. Yes. And then we feel guilty for feeling joy.
Melissa Reilly 54:00
Absolutely. Because, you know, I talked about having containers, and we can hold multiple containers, right? And so you can grieve for the loss, you know, of a mom, you know, and the longing for that and have the joy of being mom and love your child, right? You can experience all of that. And so you don’t need to feel guilty that this may be you know, front and center right now. That doesn’t mean this isn’t there. Just that front center, and it’s okay.
Victoria Volk 54:33
Yeah, so yeah, moment to moment. Absolutely evil. And that’s absolutely not as normal and that’s natural. You’re not crazy.
Melissa Reilly 54:40
No, not at all.
Victoria Volk 54:41
Well, thank you so much for being here today.
Melissa Reilly 54:45
You are very welcome.
Melissa Reilly 54:46
Thank you for having me. I’ve enjoyed it very much.
Victoria Volk 54:49
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
