Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Widowhood |
Susan Ways: On the Loss of Her Spouse, Friendships, Transition, and Discovering Her Needs
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
We’re taught how to attain relationships, careers, things, etc.. However, we’re not taught what to do when we lose them.
When Susan lost her husband to a rare form of lung cancer, she was surrounded by grief. From her own pain, she created the Tendrils of Grief podcast, which showcases grief professionals who can help provide guidance and advice to those who might feel so alone in their journey.
Through her podcast, Susan also shines a light on the stories of those who have recently lost someone close to them. It’s a podcast to help you grieve and feel connected to a wider network of people in the same place as you are.
“You are not alone,” she says, “on this journey, and there is a path forward.”
Susan shares how she navigated the loss of her husband, the impact that loss had on other relationships, her daughter, her career, and what she learned, through working with an energy coach in how to discern what she needed for her well-being.
Also, if you know someone grieving, we also dig into the topic of how to show up for grievers, even if it means having a tough conversation.
Connect with Susan:
https://www.tendrilsofgrief.com / [email protected]
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in everyone. Today I bring you Susan Ways. When Susan lost her young husband to a rare form of lung cancer, she was surrounded by grief from her own pain. She created the tendrils of grief podcast which showcases grief professionals who can guide provide, who can provide guidance and advice to those who might feel alone in their journey and feel connected to a wider network of people in the same place. You are. You are not alone, she says on this journey. And there is a path forward. So I look forward to bringing you Susan and our conversation today. Susan, say hello, welcome. Welcome to the show.
Susan Ways 0:41
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be a part of your show.
Victoria Volk 0:45
Yes. And I was actually on Susan’s podcast, the tendrils of grief that has not aired yet is that correct?
Susan Ways 0:52
It has not aired, it’s coming up.
Victoria Volk 0:54
And we had a really good conversation about the grief recovery work that I do and stuff, and I just really resonated with Susan’s story. Her early story of grief is really quite parallel to my own, as you’ll, as you’ll hear later in the show, but what brought you to starting the tendrils of grief?
Susan Ways 1:15
Well, it’s really an interesting story. Because when my husband was sick and diagnosed with cancer, he knows that I love to write and I had a very successful blog on HR, because that’s what I do professionally. And some of my blog entries have over 20,000 views. So was quite popular. And it was something I could do. And my heart just wasn’t with it. And in that at the time. And so he had asked me to write a book on his journey. And I journaled everything because I journal regularly and I journaled everything as he went through his journey. But I didn’t really feel led at that time. And things change, as you know, and you’re in a different place all the time. But I didn’t feel led to write a book. And I also didn’t have the attention span when I was grieving to really even read books. But what I did have the attention span to do was to listen to a podcast, providing that it wasn’t too long. And I started to look for podcasts on grief. And I just couldn’t find anything that was relatable. It was all very prescriptive and done from mental health professionals and talking about the stages of grief and the psychology of grief and the chemical brain reaction to grief. And I remember one time there was a podcast title, labeled social media and grief. And I was so excited about that. And I tuned into it, and it was want want long, boring. And so I was like, I’ve got to get a podcast out there that’s relatable because I can’t be the only person out here experiencing that the lack of attention, the lack of wanting to sit down and read and finish a book, but having little blocks of time where I could plug into something. And I felt like this would be a great opportunity for me to pay it forward. And it also became an incredible part of my healing process.
Victoria Volk 3:10
I love that. It’s it’s like you, you’re looking for something like what could be helpful to me. And when you didn’t find it, you jumped in. Right?
Susan Ways 3:19
Right and created it.
Victoria Volk 3:21
Yeah, exactly. That’s what we do in entrepreneurship. That’s what that’s what creation and creatives do. So I love that. So what did you find was helpful to you. During that time? I know you said it was you felt it was healing. But can you speak more? A little bit more to that, like, what was it? Was it just because what kind of guests do you have typically?
Susan Ways 3:44
There were a couple of things that were helpful to me. One was, first of all, it’s important to know that I was up at night, really afraid? How am I going to find gas to do a weekly podcast? How am I going to find topics, and I can’t keep guests from coming. And that’s a great problem to have. And I’m grateful for that. But I have so many guests and it’s I had to take a little bit of a step back because I was getting so far ahead of my recording schedule. So talking to all of these different people and hearing their stories and understanding that I’m not alone because you get stuck in shame and guilt, and all of those negative emotions because I have one podcast that’s been extremely popular where I talk about my transition back to work, and I felt like I had done something wrong and my grieving was wrong and that my grieving made me unprofessional and non productive and not worthy as an employee. And it was so incredibly hurtful to me. And it was almost it was shameful to talk about because as a professional, you want to be seen as a superstar. And so I left that job I had to leave that job because it was killing my soul. When I left it was so empowering. But there was a Wait, how do I share the story and then I started to talk to other people and they have the same story and I had Some difficult relations with other people in my family around my grief and conflicting grieving styles. Again, you feel like a bad person, and I should accept these people, and I should love them, and I should create space for them. But I just realized through this journey and talking to other people, no, I don’t have to do that. The one thing and I talked about the social media podcast that I listened to, and I was really excited because we log on to social media, sometimes first thing in the morning, and you see other people’s wonderful lives, and they have it showcased and lights and stars, I felt like my life was not wonderful, and it makes you feel really badly. And so I brought on a social media expert, who actually is a woman’s business social media expert, but she came on and delivered the podcast that I needed to hear personally about empowering yourself creating the social media community that feeds your soul, not one that sucks from it, I gave myself permission through her words, to create a really empowering social media community. And I no longer have that fear of logging on in the morning. But I if I do if I log on, and I see a post that doesn’t make me feel good, I can unfollow you, or I can unfriend you. And I’ve given myself permission to do that. So just a lot of stories, a lot of parallel stories from people from grief professionals from just other professionals, like she’s not a great professional, she’s a social media expert. And just having that empowerment and that permission to stand up for myself and create my own path forward was really just the most empowering thing I think I’ve gotten from all of this.
Victoria Volk 6:41
You bring up a good point in that cleaning up our social media is probably one of the first acts of self care that we can do as a griever. And when we’re grieving, because like you said, you can you can be wrapped up in your own story, but and that takes time and however much time it takes you to unravel all of that, and the feelings of with that. But what isn’t helpful, like you said, his people who will come on and say remarks like well, you should be over it by now, like all these myths of grief that were taught from childhood or not, and replace the loss, you know, you can marry again, you’re young yet you know, things like that. So that’s a very important message, I think to share with people today that they can take away is that you know, maybe look at your social media and clean up what what you’re putting into your brain, what is not helping you feel better, right? Also, too, can you speak to that transition a little bit?
Susan Ways 7:40
Sure. And I do want to say one quick thing, follow up to the social media piece is that we’re taught that if we unfriend someone or unfollow them, that it’s mature, or it’s petty, childish, and it’s really not, because just saying I don’t want to be connected with you on Facebook doesn’t mean I don’t value you as a person, it doesn’t mean that I don’t like you, it just means that it’s not part of that social media media community that I’m looking to build. And so I just kind of want to throw that out there. Because when we give ourselves permission to do things, we have changed the narrative around it too. And it’s you can have conversations with people or not. And I know some people were upset that I unfriended them on Facebook, but that’s okay. Because if you’re my friend, you’re going to pick up the phone and have a conversation with me about it. And those are some of the things that I learned. The transition for me moving into the podcast was really around, I have actually been working with a coach who is an energy coach, and not something that I ever believed in, and not something that I ever really liked. But I just like her style of coaching. And I like her. And she’s was working with me on the podcast and working on manifesting and really trying to visualize what it is that I want and then create that. And watch how I talk about it and watch how I position it. And it’s interesting because like I said, I just the guests were coming to me the shows were coming to me Everything was unfolding in this really beautiful organic way. And my listenership has been steadily increasing. And I don’t, success is a relative term. And people success might mean money and fame to some people. And it might just mean making a difference to someone else. And Success to me just meant that I was reaching people, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be 1000s and 1000s of people. I just want to be reaching people. So as I evolved through this process and got very clear on what it was that I wanted as an outcome and what I wanted my guests to walk away from. It’s just it’s been wonderful and I’ve had non Grievers reach out to me and say, thank you so much for this because I never know what to say when someone is grieving somebody actually reached out to me that I don’t even know now I’ve never met and they said, I just want to thank you because my best friend lost her mom two years ago. And after listening to your podcast, I realized I didn’t show up for her the way I should have. And I called her to apologize and keep doing this. So that stuff, just really, that transition has just been an evolution. And it’s been a very slow and natural evolution, which is what has kept me motivated to keep going.
Victoria Volk 10:26
And I think we share the same mission, right to reach as many people as we can. And that’s why we started podcasts about grief in our own experiences and things like that. I also want to bring circle back to the support you didn’t feel when you decided to leave your job and what you were experiencing there. Because I think that often is the case where employers, you know, I think the standard in the us right now is like you get four days of bereavement time. It’s like so even our employers are deciding how much time it takes you to grieve like, okay, you get four days, like that’s the standard, something like that three to four days, I’m not sure. Obviously, if you have paid time off, you can use that or sick leave. But that’s actual like set aside for bereavement time, which clearly is not like you’re not going to bury your loved one. And then Okay, I’m back. You know, that’s unrealistic. But yet people look to you to do that. society expects you to come back and be back as a whole person and to function as you did before. But grief changes us, you know that I know that it changes every cell changes you on a cellular level. I mean, kudos to you, though, for recognizing that it wasn’t a supportive environment and forgiving yourself permission like, Hey, I don’t need this. This isn’t serving me, this isn’t helping me. It’s draining me. It’s soul sucking, I think, too, it’s like, that’s where we need to, like you said, give ourselves permission to create those boundaries, whether it be on social media, whether it be in relationships, face to face with our employers, employees, co workers, family, I think that’s one to where we really discover at some point in grief, where we need to create boundaries, eventually, you know, you get to the point where you’re just kind of sick of what’s coming at you all the time, right? That’s unhelpful, and often hurtful, not necessarily intentional, but based on what we all learn. That’s just what we know, we resort to what we know, the one loss that brought you to starting the podcast was the loss of your husband, do you want to speak to that?
Susan Ways 12:34
Sure. The, and I want to double back a little bit just because it losing my I didn’t lose my job, I walked away from my job. But it was a very important part of this journey that brought me to wanting to do the podcast. And I think that one thing that’s important to mention when people go through this is something’s not all bad, or not all good. And it becomes a confusing space to be in. And there was a person that I worked with, at this company, who I think is one of the most amazing human beings that I ever met, and somebody who I just really valued their friendship. And she didn’t show up for me at a critical time in my life, the way I needed her to show up. And she didn’t, because she felt she couldn’t, because there were consequences to her and it becomes a self preservation type of situation. And so I’m not actively angry at her, I’ve chosen not to be in a relationship with her at this point, because I just one of my values has become my friend show up for me even when it’s tough for them. But likewise, I show up for my friends, even when it’s tough for me, and I’ve learned that so I want to definitely model that behavior. But there were some wonderful things that my employer did some very generous things, including they sponsor the wake the dinner at the wake for my husband’s so it became confusing, because there were these wonderful things that they did. And then these awful things. And as I was in a grieving state where you know, you’re not always thinking clearly, and you’re not always focused. And they, I just became extra confused. But what I knew is I became fearful. And when I feel like this is another one of my values that has come out of that, when I feel that I have to protect myself against you, we have a problem. And I’ve learned to pay attention to that and not make excuses for people because my analogy is if you have a dog, and you pet the dog 810 times and eight times the dog licks your hand and twice the dog bites you you’re always going to be afraid to pet the dog, even though the bites are less frequent exponentially than the licks. So that’s just human nature. So I want to make that really clear because I think that as people are grieving and they’re in, whether it’s a work relationship or just another personal relationship where you feel there’s this conflict of good and bad and carrots and sticks or whatever you want to call it licks and bytes. Whatever it is, you really need to pay attention to that. And you need to make sure that something is filling your soul and isn’t leaving you questioning yourself your own value, or what how you’re grieving what you’re going through. Because however you grieve is how you grieve. And there’s no right or wrong way to that. So I just want to highlight that, but that loss, my husband passing away, because we had a great marriage, we had a great life, we had a great family, we were grateful, we were happy. We just really, today is the start of football season. Technically, I think it started Thursday night, but today there’s games on. And this would be a time when football would be on the TV and I would be making dinner and we would be at home doing projects together. And I missed that. That’s something that I really appreciated in our life, and something that I don’t have now. So this loss really just seeped into every area of my life. And that’s how I came up with the title tendrils of grief because it’s not just the sadness. It’s not just the loss, there’s there’s things that people don’t realize, when there’s a noise in the middle of the night, I’m now the one that has to get up and go investigate it, it’s silly little things like that. Or if something needs repaired around the house, I’m YouTubing, how to repair things. I’ve repaired the dishwasher, I’ve repaired the garage door, I repaired the washing machine. I’ve done all these things I never thought I could do which is wonderful and empowering. But there’s a part of me that feels resentful to that it has to be me that it’s not him anymore. And I wanted to talk about those things, I wanted to talk about that magical one year anniversary, where everyone thinks that you have flipped the switch into moving forward. Or even if you’re dating that that means Oh, you’re over that now you’re over the last year over the grief, and you’re not, and things can live, they can coexist in the same space, you can have a life with someone else while still grieving the loss of somebody else. And it’s just there’s a lot of things that I just felt like were really important to talk about. And I think the one event that pushed me over the edge to knowing that I had to do this beyond a shadow of a doubt is I didn’t want to live after my husband died. And I wondered many times, if I didn’t have my daughter, would I have ever had the courage to commit suicide because I just I didn’t I wasn’t actively suicidal. But I knew I didn’t want to be here anymore. I really just wanted to go and be with my husband. And I was really shameful about that. And I didn’t want to tell anyone because I didn’t want to, I’m having all of these really catastrophic thoughts such as they’re gonna come and take my daughter away from me, because I’m suicidal, that they’re gonna come and put me in a mental institution, or they’re going to make me take medication. And I didn’t want any of that. So I didn’t talk about it. And finally, I said to one of my really good friends who lost her husband, I said, Do you ever feel like you don’t want to live anymore? And she said, Oh, yeah, every day. And I didn’t even want to Google search it because I was so afraid that somebody would find out that I had Google search this and they didn’t start to sound the alarm. So when I and then I started to talk about it more, I have a broader group of ladies, I know I’ve lost their husband and I talked to them about it. And every one of them was like, Yes, we feel like this all the time. And I thought, if I’m feeling shame, and fear around this, other people are too and I’ve got to start getting the message out there to people around all of these things, whatever it is that people want to talk about around their grief, someone else needs to hear that message.
Victoria Volk 18:42
That’s Yeah, absolutely powerful. Just everything you just said. Like you said, it seeps into every aspect of our lives. And I’m curious, though, what was the one aside from you finding inspiration or feeling that inspired, hit or however you want to say it to start the podcast? What was it in particular, that helped you flip that switch? Like, what was it? Had you been going to therapy? Had you just kind of through journaling? Had you had this awareness of what needed to change? Like, how did you turn around all of those thoughts and feelings? Like what was it for you?
Susan Ways 19:26
Well, I was going to, I was getting the coaching with the coach that the energy coach that I had been talking about, I was still in grief counseling at the time, as well. But the energy coach really did help me see that. But my friends started to come to Me too. And they started to say, you need to do this, we want you to do this, this will be great for you. And all of a sudden I had support from my community that I didn’t solicit because you know, when you go and we ask our friends and we say, Hey, I’m thinking about doing this, what do you think? And they’re thinking, Oh, yeah, That’s a great idea while they’re shaking their head, no. And I didn’t get that I got I wasn’t really going to them. I was talking about it and saying, I’m kind of thinking about doing this, but I don’t know I’m scared. And then they started to come back to me and say, You need to do this, you need to do this. And finally working with the coach. She said to me, and I trust this woman so much. She said to me, Susan, you need to do this. She said, I have goosebumps just listening to you talk about this podcast, and you need to do this. She said, you are going to help so many people. And that was really when I was like, Alright, dammit, I’m doing it. And I just jumped off the ledge and did it. And before that I had done all this investigation. All of this research, I contacted podcasting, hosting companies, I looked at different equipment. I was kind of window shopping everything. But when she said that, I was like, Okay, I’m in, because I wanted to do it. And again, it comes down to permission a lot for many of us, not just me, but I can only speak for me, it comes down to permission for me. And sometimes when I want to do something that’s scary and uncertain, I just need the permission of the right people around me. And I all of a sudden felt like I was getting that. And so I just went for it.
Victoria Volk 21:18
Support huge. Absolutely. I 100% agree. What does that quote something you’re you’re a some of the five people you surround yourself with, or something like that, right? So especially in grief, I absolutely agree. Support is huge. And it’s why like in grief recovery, we have the groups which are phenomenal for people who want to are ready to take action. I’m curious if you had tried like traditional, like church support groups, things like that. Had you tried that at all, prior, like early on,
Susan Ways 21:47
I went to a hospice support group. And it was not a good fit for me. And probably, Paul had passed maybe three between three and six months at that point. And I went in, and there were people there who were very stuck in grief. And I’m gonna say this with no judgement, because I’m talking about what I needed to feed my soul at that time. But there were people who just really were talking in a in a really depressive way they were, there was one conversation about what kind of medication are you on? And what kind of medication Are you on. And I thought I don’t want to take medication and not because there’s anything wrong with it. But I have a very bad reaction to any kind of like SSRI or any kind of medication in that class. So it’s hard for me to take medication, and that wasn’t a path I wanted to go down. And I there was one woman who couldn’t get out of bed. And she had lost her job because she couldn’t show up physically to work. And here I was slugging it out every day and getting kind of attacked at work. And then there was a woman who didn’t get out of bed and and I thought I don’t want to be that person. And you know, it’s just a, it’s just a twist of fate to not be that person, because you have to really well yourself many times to get up and get out of that. And there was another woman who had lost her husband, and then got engaged and lost her fiance. And it was just too much sad for me. And I needed hope. And that’s what I wanted. I didn’t want to sit in a room with people who didn’t appear to have hope, which was what that group ended up feeling like for me. And it was probably wonderful for all of them because maybe they needed to commiserate. And that was part of their grief process and part of their healing journey. But it was terrifying for me because I was like, I don’t want to be here in five years having this conversation. I don’t want to be not able to get out of bed. I don’t want to be just one woman was getting evicted from her house, which I know happens to a lot of people because they just can’t afford after they lose someone. And on my podcast, a young woman talks about how she her mom passed away while she was in college, and she got evicted from the apartment that they were living in together. I mean, that’s a very horrible reality. But I needed help. I needed somebody to say, I got through this. And here’s how. And I needed a lot of somebody to say that and not somebody that was a multimillionaire, you read about these people in the magazines, or you see them interviewed on TV, and to me they’re not real and I know they’re real, but their life is not relatable at all to my life. I needed people that I could relate to and again, becoming a part of what led me into wanting to do the podcast.
Victoria Volk 24:39
And that’s one of the distinctions too we make in grief recovery is those the difference between a grief recovery group and then a regular support group and that like you said, there’s there really isn’t action involved. And that’s the distinction I want to make too and that you recognize there was an action being taken. There was there wasn’t hope there. It That’s the distinction, I think, is that there wasn’t hold because there wasn’t action. So you come back week after week, and you share the same story, you’re in the same story week after week, where is the whole and even that is a choice. So that’s a choice we make, even in grief. And that is, the difficult part of it is that it’s not a judgement. But we have to have that awareness about ourselves. And I think oftentimes, too, it comes down to what you feel worthy of, you know, what I think so often to like, when people engage in this traditional support groups, it might feel like, I’m not worthy of more, I’m not worthy of healing, I’m not worthy of there’s better than this, I deserve better than this. And that’s a hard thing to come to, if you never felt worthy. And that’s where I suffered for over 30 years, because I didn’t feel worthy, you know, I’d worked self worth issues, like many of us do, but so I that’s where I commend you and saying, what you saw possibility you saw hope elsewhere, you know, and that’s the message to I want to get across to people listening is that hope isn’t gonna find us if we aren’t looking for it necessarily. Sometimes we’re, we’re kind of blinded to it, it can even hit us on the head. And we might not even see it the potential or the possibility, because we’re so we’re just so sad. We’re so down, we’re so consumed by our reality at the time. So what
Susan Ways 26:30
I love the term that somebody said to me once, that when you start complaining about something without any kind of actionable outcome, because how do I get out of this situation, we all have problems. And life is not perfect, or neat or pretty all the time. And when you have these issues that come up, you want to work them out with your friends, and so you have a conversation. But when you’re having that conversation over and over again, and this is what I really just walked away with from talking to this other person is that you’re now having a non versation. And conversation is when you’re talking to somebody about something you have no intention or action plan, as you said, on how to change it. And I didn’t want that I needed to know that there was hope. And I needed to start to attract people into my life because as you said, You have a choice. And I could have gone to that support group week after week. And I could have wallowed in my self pity, and not moved forward and commiserated with people in that same energy that I was in. Or I could begin to attract the people in my life that were going to show me that there was hope. And not only show me how there was hope, but show me how to get there. And how did they get there, and what tools did they use, because grieving is not a one size fits all. And you can talk to 20 people and get 20 different tools, and they’re all going to work for you at different times, or maybe not all are going to work for you. But some may not work at the time that you hear them, but may work later. And some might be able to be massaged into something that can work for you. So I think that’s really important is when you do make those choices, it’s about being clear on your vision and where you want to go. And then beginning to create that vision and surrounding yourself with those five people that you’ve talked about earlier.
Victoria Volk 28:15
I love the talk about energy too, because as an energy healer in Reiki, which I didn’t get opened up to until after I did my own grief recovery work with on myself, but we are energy. And every thought every feeling has energy behind it. And so when you’re in a room, and you’re trying to vibe, I guess you could say or, you know, come from a space of high vibes or just more elevated energy, where you want to attract that to you. It is harder when you’re surrounded by less hopeful energy, I guess you know, I think you know what I’m trying to say. But yeah, so it is the energy we bring.
Susan Ways 28:58
Sometimes you need to sit in that energy. Sometimes you need to be in that non helpful energy. And I’m a big believer that you go through your grief process in a way that’s meaningful to you. And trust me, I had many pity parties, and I had many non helpful days. And I finally got on my own nerves and was I just couldn’t, I didn’t want to be around myself. I couldn’t imagine how anyone else wanted to be around me. And so that’s really what inspired me to start searching for hope.
Victoria Volk 29:25
Same. Absolutely. 100% that’s I got tired of my own Bias, right? Really? So what would you like to screen to the world and the rich people knew about your grief.
Susan Ways 29:38
There’s two things that I would like people to know about my grief. One is and it’s really funny because I was having a conversation with a friend who lost his wife and they were married a little bit longer than Paul and I were married but I said you know that sideview mirror that says objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. I said I feel like I need a sign on me that says My life is not quite as put together as what it would appear, and I think that people judge you and treat you the way they perceive your life is going. And just because I’m smiling and well put together on the outside doesn’t mean that I’m not falling apart on the inside. And my grieving is not over. And I would like people to know that. And I would also like people to know that to show up with love, and show up with tenderness. And that’s been really important to me, and especially for those people who love me and who I’m friends with, or who I have in my inner circle. Even days when I may be behaving in an unlovable way, tell me that, but tell me in a lovable way, that I’m behaving that way. And I talk about this so often on my podcast, I had a friend who I thought was just a really, really good friend. And she just stopped talking to me. And in the process of stopping talking to me, she was pretty ugly about it. And I tried to talk to her and find out what was going on. And the only thing I can think of is that I was relying on her very heavily, too heavily during my grieving. And she made a couple of comments to me, but she never sat down and said, hey, look, I love you. And you matter to me, but I’ve got my own family and my own job and my own stuff going on. And this is really too heavy for me. So if you can start to look for other resources, I would really appreciate that she never did that. She just cut me off and did it in a really unloving and ugly way. And my daughter was actually very good friends with her daughter. And her daughter began to treat my daughter in the same exact way. So I’m sure there was some conversations, and I’m only assuming, and I don’t know, but I’m guessing there were some conversations in that household. Because her daughter didn’t like the way my daughter was grieving and became very ugly, and actually created an uncomfortable situation for my daughter and a sports not event but a sporting a sport that she was involved in. And this girl, as teenage girls will do allied up with other girls and was quite ugly. And Madison ended up having to pretty much walk away from the sport for the, again for what was good for her soul and what was best for her soul. And so I just treat people with love to speak kind that saying that you don’t know the battle that someone is fighting, you don’t have to like someone, you don’t have to be their best friend, but treat them with kindness. And if you do love someone sit down and have a conversation with them, because they deserve it, you deserve it, your relationship deserves it, and it’s going to make you a better person in the long run.
Victoria Volk 32:38
I relate to that story, too. I had lost a friendship kind of in the same sort of way where they just stopped talking to me and I didn’t understand what was going on. And really, it came down to me, like, kind of latching on and too much coming on too strong or feeling like maybe I was more invested in her than she wasn’t me, you know, and it was hurtful. And but that’s the ripples, right? The ripples of grief, how it just kind of makes its way outward. And like you explained, you know, with your daughter, the friendship, how that just kind of, you know, created ripples then in her life and impacted her then as well. I think that’s one thing too, we don’t realize is how one action that we take. And one thing that we say can just really have those ripples. And so I appreciate you bringing that up just the fact of having, looking at people with tender eyes, almost as if you have their heart in your hands like that. Yeah. I think Yeah, I’ll leave
Susan Ways 33:43
Is a great way to put that because it really just I’m a strong person, I don’t like to ask for help. And I think what happened now that I look back is that I found someone who I thought was safe to ask help from and I probably asked too much. Because in trying to keep myself comfortable, I made that person uncomfortable. And again, I can only guess because I’ve tried to have conversations and the person will not engage and I just walked away because it was not good for my soul, I would have been so fine if that person just like I said was loving and kind and said, Hey, this is just too much for me. Because people do have their own lives and they can’t hold my hand and they can’t be there for me and take the role of my late husband. But it was a big change for me. And he was the caretaker and he was the one he worked from home. And so he did all the transportation and he did a lot of the things during the day and now all of a sudden I had to do it all by myself. And I thought I had someone that could be a good partner in that and probably overstepped my boundaries and I’m sure that I did, but there’s a gentle and a loving way to communicate that to someone especially when they’re grieving. You should do it anyway. But when someone’s grieving, take that extra couple of steps to just be more loving and more gentle.
Victoria Volk 35:00
I love that. Yes, absolutely. I had another thought, but it escaped me. Actually, I want to go back to your grieving story doesn’t begin with your husband. When did first experience grief in your life,
Susan Ways 35:18
When my when I was young, I was 11 years old, and my father had a heart attack and passed away. And it was very sudden. And I won’t say that it was unexpected for me as a child, but not unexpected for the people around him because he had a heart condition. And back then heart surgery was just as risky is weighing out the odds of maybe having a heart attack. So he died. And shortly thereafter, within the next year, my mom started to go out a lot. And she started to date. So she wasn’t home. And I had have two older brothers, who are significantly older than me. And they were living their own life. And they were out and about doing their own thing. But within the next year, they started to, they moved out, both of them moved, and my mom was just almost she was gone. Every weekend, she was gone. Some nights during the week, she wasn’t there. When I came home from school, she had always been a stay at home mom. So I went from this very typical, stay at home kind of a Brady Bunch ish family, and not in the blended sense, but in the sense that we were the stay at home mom and the dad that was home at six o’clock every night, and the family dinners and all of that to being alone. And from 12 years old, on the heels of losing my dad and there was no therapy back then you didn’t you just got over it, you didn’t talk about it. It’s funny because the show Burn Notice, which I don’t watch. But I know the premise. It’s that’s how I felt about my dad, it was like he was a part of our life. And then he just wasn’t we didn’t talk about him anymore. And so all of this loss and a lot of loss in a short period of time during a formative time in my life. And I ended up really raising myself in many cases. And my mom married a man when I was 14, who was just awful, and awful to me during a really important time grieving and a teenager. And so when you talk about ending up with self worth issues there, there was just this compounded loss that came into my world. And I shared with you in the meeting that we had that I admired my husband so much because he was a wonderful father. And I even shared that with him right before he died, how much I enjoyed watching him with our daughter, because he was such a great father and I missed out on that part of being a child having a father and I got to watch it through him. And then two months later, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And that was a punch in my soul.
Victoria Volk 37:48
And I we had talked earlier how my story is a little is parallel to yours, except I was a little bit younger, I was eight. But I what resonates with me and what what you shared when you got to witness your husband, and how he was with your daughter. That’s how I feel with my husband. And every time my children, I have three kids every time each of them turned eight years old. I imagine them being me. And if their father passed away, you know, it’s like that’s what was going through my mind when they turned eight, like what my experience was, and reflecting on what because when I was eight people looked at me like I didn’t know what was going on. In fact, someone even said that she doesn’t know what’s going on anyway. And that’s burned into my brain over 30 years later, you know, that’s one thing I remember. And which I remember everything. I saw my dad in the grave in his, you know, casket, it’s, you know, I was there, you know, and I watched him the decline over two years as well, you know, you died of cancer. And so when I looked at my kids, it was like, would they understand? Absolutely, they would understand? Absolutely, they would know what grieving is when you didn’t have that support. And I didn’t have that support. I understand that. I understand that. And it changes you. Right. It absolutely changes you. I’m sure it changed to how you were there for your daughter, right?
Susan Ways 39:14
Absolutely. It absolutely did. And we talk about her dad a lot. And actually today, four years ago was the day that he ended up in the hospital and I he subsequently had a cancer diagnosis, but he ended up in the ER, this day four years ago. So this was when our journey ended. And I posted on Facebook this morning that I woke up living my best life and went to bed in a nightmare. And so it’s she and I talk about a lot of that stuff and a lot of what her dad brought to her life and I really want to keep his memory alive and let her know that he’s still a part of my life. He’s still a part of her life and even though our lives are gonna move forward They’re going to move forward with his fingerprints all over them.
Victoria Volk 40:05
I love how you said that. I love I said that I actually just had an interview yesterday with a gal who has remarried and has a family now. But she had a first husband who had passed away unexpectedly. And she said, you know, yes, I’m happy. Yes, I’m remarried. Yes, I have, you know, child and one on the way. But I still grieve the first husband, you know, and I think that’s the thing that people really don’t understand either is you can have joy, you can be happy, and you can still grieve, right? It’s, you know, it’s not, or it’s and, you know, and they, we exist in, in that and space, it’s both happy and joyful, and happy and sad. And, you know, sadness doesn’t go away. But the distinction too, is that it’s what you do with it, you know, do you let it be the captain of your life? Or do you turn it for something positive and good, and to create ripples, positive ripples around you, and like you, and there is no timeline to that to how long that takes. But we, we each make that choice for ourselves. But I can tell you, if, if I would have discovered or had the knowledge I had a year and a half ago, I wouldn’t have spent 10 years of you know, my 20s and 30s, feeling how I was feeling, you know, it almost then I have grief around. If only I could have changed my life back then if only I would have known this back then if only if only if only, you know, and that’s just more grief. And that just adds to my suffering. So I’ve had to learn to release that and give myself that compassion, as I’m sure you have over the years as well just like, have that compassion for yourself. You know, it’s it’s as much as to give it to other people, but it’s often hardest to give it to ourselves.
Susan Ways 42:02
Right? It is, I think that is the absolute hardest because we are our own worst critic. And I love somebody had said once, if someone else said the stuff to you that you say to yourself in your head, would you be friends with them? And I think about that all the time, because I will stop myself now and be like, no, I would not tolerate that from anyone else. And I’m not going to do it to myself.
Victoria Volk 42:27
Exactly. Or would you tell it say that to a child, you know, and we all carry our own our inner child within us, you know, all the lessons and everything and learning and conditioning and all of that that we’ve grown up with? What is one tip that you would give another hurting heart today?
Susan Ways 42:47
To know that things will get better. And that doesn’t mean that the grief will go away. But the windows become further apart. And I still I’m coming up on three years now. And I still have bad days. And there might be two bad days in a row. But I know they’re just days. And I know that a good day is behind that. And a lot of days are just days. But there’s some days that are bad. There’s some days that are great. And I think just knowing that there is hope that there is a path forward, that there’s a lot of people out there that care and find them, surround yourself with them. And just make that your inner circle. And if it doesn’t feel good, let go of it. That’s a lot more than one tip. Sorry.
Victoria Volk 43:33
Well, amen. No. Amen. I love that. So if people want to reach out to you, where’s the best place they can do that?
Susan Ways 43:43
They can, depending on what it is that they’re looking for. I have the tendrils of grief website, which is www.tendrilsofgrief.com. And all the podcasts are listed there. And there’s a forum to connect with me there. They can email me at [email protected]. And that’s really the best way to reach me if you want to talk about grieving or the podcast.
Victoria Volk 44:10
Perfect. And I’ll put those that information also on the show notes. But I thank you Susan, is there anything else you want to add or share today?
Susan Ways 44:19
No I think covered a lot today. So this was really wonderful. Thank you for what you’re doing. I think it’s really I think what you do at the grief recovery Institute, refreshing approach to counseling and to moving forward with grief. And it is about recovery. It’s not just about talking about your feelings and sitting in your feelings. It’s really about finding that path forward. And I think it’s just really wonderful that there’s people out there who get that and who are providing that channel for grievers. So as I said on my pod podcast when you were on I hope people look you up and plug into that
Victoria Volk 44:53
And likewise I love that you bring on people of different areas like this. Social media thing. I mean, that’s a great avenue that I wouldn’t have thought of you know that. But it’s important. Like that’s what we ingest every day, right social media and it all impacts us. He does. Yeah, it’s important. Well, thank you so much, Susan for being here. I look forward to actually hearing our episode as well on tendrils of grief. Tune in next week for another podcast. Until then, everyone, take care much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Podcast, Postpartum, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Patti H.: Widow, Miscarriage, IVF, and Grief Recovery Experience
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patti shares her grieving voice on being a widow and how, despite moving on with life, her heart still grieves the loss of her first husband.
However, grief didn’t start for her there, and she touches on grief with the living, and later, a miscarriage, and her and her current husband’s shared experience with IVF.
Patti also shares what’s helped her get through the hard days, and how the Grief Recovery Method has helped her navigate her losses, and, be a supportive heart with ears for others.
Loss and grief accumulate throughout life. If Patti’s stories resonate with you, you can find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/journey2babyherr2/
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 1:35
Hey, everybody, thanks for returning to the podcast this week, I have a very special guest. Patty. She was one of the participants in my very first grief recovery method program group program. And she’s going to be sharing her grieving voice with you today. Patty, want to say hi,
Patti 2:00
hi, everyone. I’ve never done this before. So
Victoria Volk 2:04
no, this will be great. Just a conversation. Let’s start with what brought you to grief recovery. We’ll start there.
Patti 2:14
So I’ve had a lot of grief in my life. And I try not to let it well it It made me of who I am today. But I try not to let it lead my life. But I realized that I needed to work on some things. And I heard about this and messaged you about it and asked some questions. And I thought I might as well just give this a try. But it turned out to be something completely opposite of what I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to be doing something about my husband and it turned out not to be that it turned out to be someone living in my life.
Victoria Volk 2:48
And when you how had you tried other things before to help process your grief?
Patti 2:54
I was kind of in the mood of I didn’t want to talk to a stranger like a counselor about someone about my husband who they didn’t even know. And so to me, I just kind of push that all the way. I guess so. No, I haven’t tried anything else.
Victoria Volk 3:13
Okay, so tell what would you say has been or was the hardest thing or has been the hardest thing about the loss of your husband because this this was actually your your first husband? Yep. And you’ve since remarried and a beautiful boy and another on the way and you’re happy now with you know great relationship share with our listeners how that transition from that loss and and what you experienced during that time. And in what could have been more helpful to you or what was helpful to you just kind of share a little bit more about that loss and then in the transition from that loss into where you are now in your relationship with your new husband.
Patti 4:13
So it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to go through. Um, I we hadn’t been married that long, a year and a half I think it was and just it was so tragic and fast. Like it was very unexpected. So he was only 32 years old and it was a four wheeler accident at work. So it was very unexpected. But I clung on to people that wanted to be around me and I kind of learned who my true friends were. Some people I lost friendships over this and it’s weird that you would think like I didn’t cause him you know his death or anything but I did lose friendships. family dynamics changed as far as his family and me um, and then just Just me as a person, I changed it. I think people say like, it kills a little bit of you. And I wouldn’t say it killed a little bit of me. But it definitely like changed how I thought about life and the way I lived life, I wanted to kind of get away from everything. So I applied for some different jobs and ended up moving to Asheville, North Dakota, I had only planned on staying there for about a year. And then I wanted to move south I wanted to move to Tennessee where one of my best friends lives or just somewhere near there, like I just wanted to, I wanted, I didn’t have my family anymore, I didn’t have my husband. So I wanted to have the career. I ended up meeting my now husband, and we had gotten pregnant then. So I have a little boy, he’s now four. And now we have had to do we’ve had to deal together with secondary infertility, which to me is kind of like another loss. We suffered a miscarriage a year after our first was born. And then just going through the infertility was tough, and we learned a lot from each other. And it wasn’t perfect. We weren’t perfect in our stuff, I guess in our lives, like with how to deal with that infertility, secondary infertility, and then we ended up deciding to do IVF and now we are pregnant about halfways pregnant with our little girl. So life now I still Six years later, I still grieve my first husband, and I always will, I will always greet him, it’s just the way I grieve is a little different now. And I the way I like to what helps me is I like to help other people who’ve experienced the loss of someone and maybe it’s just me going out to lunch with them or having a conversation and not everyone wants that. But I reach out and if they want my friendship, then that’s fine. Um, I hate that they that we have that connection. But it is what it is in life is what it is. And that’s the way I guess I I have grown as a person is helping others with loss. So but now Yeah, I mean, I still grieve him Six years later, and I’ll grieve him for everyday for the rest of my life. But it’s just a little different now and I am happy. Um, but I still grieve him so
Victoria Volk 7:23
Well, and because grief doesn’t end because we still I mean, you loved him, obviously. And that doesn’t just go away, right? we grieve because we love and in being through going through grief recovery method, you know that grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. And despite all the joy that you have in your life right now, it you know, um, can you speak to is it what might have been? What could have been? Or what was like, you know, these unexpected losses that you said occurred because of that loss? You know, the things that you experienced because of that loss? Can you speak to that a little bit?
Patti 8:16
Um, yeah, I just
Victoria Volk 8:18
Friendships that you love. Yeah, things like that.
Patti 8:20
I just think you when I just think like the loss of expectation. So you think that you’re not going to lose those friendships? Do you think that you expect things to go differently, like I did not expect to get married again, I did not expect to fall in love. But I was young. And that’s just what happened. And I’m so thankful. And I thank God every day for who I did fall in love with because he is so understanding of my whole journey with Jared and everything, like my first husband. So I’m very thankful for my husband now that he is truly understanding of that, and maybe he doesn’t understand it or, but he’s there and he supports me through it all. So I’m very thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 9:06
And that is huge, right? It’s he, I know in grief recovery, you learn to about being a heart with yours. So he sounds like he is that for you.
Patti 9:15
Is my heart with yours? Yes,
Victoria Volk 9:17
Yeah, that’s special. So what would you like to say to the world about or wish that people knew about your grief?
Patti 9:31
I like to tell people all the time, grieve, how you want it as long as you’re not hurting yourself or others. How long you want it I just feel like there should be no timeline on it. You can grieve as long as you want. grieve as short as you want. I just don’t think there’s any right or wrong answer, but I just don’t think that as a widow or someone who’s lost someone, like don’t let people tell you how to grieve and how long to grieve and I just remember feeling like I can’t sit at home and cry. I can’t be out in public and smiling and anyone be happy with that. So I was just going to do things for me. And I didn’t care what people thought, if I wanted to be happy that day, I was gonna be happy. If I wanted to cry, I was gonna cry, and I still have those days where I just want to cry, or I just want to be happy. So I call them my Jared days.
Victoria Volk 10:24
Well, and like grief, you know, this that just like going through the grief recovery method, having experienced it, it comes in waves, right? It’s gonna come and it’s gonna go. But the important thing I think our listeners hear is that you have not allowed these expectations placed on you by societal norms of, you know, we learn in grief recovery, that one of the myths of grief is Time heals all wounds. Right, you know, and I know that time just passes, it’s what you do, and the action that you take within that time. Now I know the relationship with your husband is not one that you have worked on through recovery yet. But, you know, once you go through this method, and as you know, you have these tools to use whenever at your disposal, what resonated with me early on in my healing journey and night, we kind of talked about it briefly before we started recording is that healing takes time. And investment in ourself, takes time. And we can get really busy in life, children, work, careers, jobs, husbands, you know, all these distractions pulling at us and, you know, screaming at us for their for their time, you know, I’ve got three kids and a husband, day job and a side hustle. And so it’s like, all these things. But there’s one thing that I’ve learned is that even if I take one hour a week, even just one hour a week to just read something that will inspire me, that will motivate me to reach my highest potential or dig a little deeper into what I’ve been feeling. Sometimes that’s all it takes to to create momentum and things and, and so are there any practices that you’ve been doing since grief recovery to help you keep that, at the top of your mind? Maybe it’s not necessarily priority right now, because you’ve had a lot of things that you’ve been, you know, have really been more of your focus, you know, with the, you know, a new baby, you’re growing a baby, like, that’s a lot of work. And, and it’s taxing on the body, too, right? It’s like it’s exhausting to grow baby. All you resonate mothers. And you already have a child a boy. And so I know there’s all these things in your life that take your time now, but is there anything that you could even if it’s just a micro thing, like something small? What is helping you on days where you’re having those Gera days, or when you’re feeling a little overwhelmed by life, or you’re feeling just emotionally taxed a little bit? Is there anything that you’re doing that is helping you on those days?
Patti 13:34
I know that maybe I’m doing it a different way than like reading something. But I think my way of doing it would be talking like having conversations, like deep conversations with people, and I’ve had quite a few lately, and I’m not really sure why. But my friends, they didn’t hear they didn’t know Jared, but they still ask me questions about it. Like, how did you feel like, what did you do? And they just listened to me, but they still, like want to know, too, you know, and I think for me, like, you guys really should get, you know, your life insurance figured out or like a will or something because you just never know. Like, we’re getting older and things happen. And it’s just life and it sucks. And you don’t want to think about that stuff. But we didn’t either when my husband passed away, so I think having those deep conversations, we have feeling conversations, like I’ve just been having a lot of that lately. Um, and then just like I drive a half hour on my way home, so I feel like I decompress and I’m like, Okay, my workday is over and now I need to focus on other things. So that half hour to work and, you know, on the way back, I feel like I get to reflect a lot and I get to reflect a lot by having these conversations with people. So that’s kind of my way, maybe not so much journaling or reading something, but just the deep conversations with people.
Victoria Volk 14:54
I just got body chills because that, yes, that totally resonates with me because I think in, specially in grief we get, like, it’s so easy for society just even in general to do have like the surface level conversations like, you know, talk about the weather. Yeah. Let’s talk about grief, like we talk about the weather and maybe I got to change that because that really brings to light like, well, I want to go when I say that, let’s talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather, it’s more like, let’s just make it a daily conversation. Let’s make it. Let’s make it part of the conversation, right? But when we actually just talk about the weather, we’re just really scratching the surface, right? It’s like, what lights you up? You know, if someone were to ask you that, like what lights you up? I know I if I I’ve asked some people that in my circle, they kind of look at me like I have two heads. You know, it’s like you kind of can see who you can have deep conversation with. Oh, yeah, I hear it. Yeah. And oftentimes, I find it’s people who have an awareness around what they’ve endured in their life and how it’s impacted their life. Both pilot
Patti 16:15
Might not even be like, serious, they might not even be like serious as losing someone but just like, even though I’ve lost a husband, I feel like I can relate to other people that were in my group that never actually like lost someone. Like I appreciate them more. Yeah, yeah, our grief is similar, but we can still talk about it. Like it’s the same but it’s not. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk 16:37
Well, it wouldn’t be right because every relationship is unique and individual and that’s the beautiful thing about deep conversation right is we can see things from a different perspective that is impossible for us to see it because we haven’t experienced it. So I really resonate when you say that like deep conversation really jazzes me to like it lights me up. Yeah,
Patti 17:01
I’d rather talk about it then journal it, I guess my hand gets tired.
Victoria Volk 17:06
But that’s a that’s an excellent tip, thank you for sharing that. I think that’s a really a really valid, useful point to make. And also to like, you know, 30 minutes and a commute. Like I travel a lot with my day job. I love podcasts. I love listening to podcasts during that time stuff that’s going to feed my brain stuff that’s going to motivate me or inspire me or you know, what encouraged me to strive for for just to be better and who I am and live my life more aligned with what I value and I think would you agree that kind of grief does that for us like it kind of just really it’s kind of like a it’s a reset button for our soul? Maybe it’s a reset button for for our lives in a lot of ways like on another interview we talked about how it just it’s it’s like this clarifier clarifies things so in what ways do you feel like your grief has clarified things for you in your life?
Patti 18:17
So sometimes I feel like people dot not that they take it for granted but they just don’t realize like, well and sometimes I catch myself too if I’m complaining like oh, my son’s being so naughty today like someone come take him. But then I think of the person who lost their four year old son and I’m like they don’t they wish they would have that. And so I think of that too. Like, I try not to complain like when I’m complaining I just like have to decompress and be like, okay, I don’t have it bad. Like, I can handle this people. Like I wish I could fight with Jared like I fight have fights with Barrett like. So I just try not to take some of that stuff for granted. And I like try and think like, okay, life really isn’t that bad. I’ve been through bad. And people other people have been through are going through worse things. And I should just be grateful and thankful for what I have in my life right now. Like I am very thankful that we got to go through IVF and we did get pregnant because it doesn’t always work for everyone. And I’m thankful for the way that that journeys been and led us and I’ve helped a lot of people because of that other women who are going through it other men who are going through it. So I just have to try and feel thankful for my time right now.
Victoria Volk 19:32
I just had an inspired that. Perhaps you have Barrett want to start a podcast.
Patti 19:41
I actually listened to infertility podcasts. And I love hearing other women but I don’t know I would rather them reach out to me it’s still like an unspoken thing. Like people. A lot of people don’t want to talk about it. Other people want love to talk about it. So it’s just like if I let the women come to me or the men come to me, so
Victoria Volk 19:59
That’s wonderful that you’re willing to share in that way because and also having you bring a unique perspective to that too. I think just because you’ve gone through grief recovery, and you have this, it’s not even inside knowledge. It’s just new knowledge, right?
Patti 20:19
It’s not talked about, like you don’t need people don’t talk about it. So other like women don’t know, like, if they just have a simple, like a simple thing wrong with their hormones or something, it might just be a pill they have to take, you know, and that’s not huge, but other people need more in their lives as far as the infertility side of it. So to me, it’s like if I can just get them to go to the doctor and see what’s wrong, it could be something so simple, you know, and then they could have that baby and things like that. I just want to be inspiring for people.
Victoria Volk 20:50
Well, you’re starting here on Instagram, actually, I just want to before I forget and before we get into some other conversation, but where can people find you where you’re sharing your story with infertility that where they can reach out to you where where can
Patti 21:06
I did start with Instagram because there are some people in my life that don’t don’t feel comfortable talking about IVF and infertility and they just don’t feel comfortable. So I started with Instagram, haven’t been updating it in a while. But my Facebook, my personal Facebook, too, like, if you want to message me on there, add me as a friend. I mean, I can tell if you’re fake or not so
Victoria Volk 21:28
But where where can people find you on Instagram then a journey to baby hair too journey to baby hair too and I’ll put it with a number twos. Number two, yeah, I will put that in the show notes. Okay. Okay, so let’s move on to what would be one tip that you would give other hurting hearts today.
Patti 21:56
Um, if you some people I feel like that I’ve known now since I’ve been become a widow. They maybe don’t need as much help, I guess outside help. But I thought the grm course was very good for me. And I’m glad that I found it but I was five years later, you know. But I feel like if you have a good support system, like find your support system, it doesn’t have to be family, it doesn’t have to, I don’t know, I just if you want to find other widows or maybe not, maybe they don’t want to have to be other widows or widowers, but just find someone to be able to talk to finds people who are supportive of everything you’re doing. That’s and then just don’t let anyone tell you how to grieve or how long to grieve because you’re going to do it at your own pace. And maybe you don’t want to grieve that long maybe you don’t want to feel the way you do so then you just need some extra support. So have a good support system. And I feel like the ladies that I actually took the class with they are gonna have a special place in my heart for the rest of my life so whether we don’t talk every day or we do you know, I haven’t talked to some of them in a long time. But I feel like I could just pick up the phone and call them and they would answer so I am thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 23:09
That was a very for those that don’t know or aren’t aware but yeah, it was my very first group and it was one it was just a really really good experience for me. I yeah, it was it meant everything to me and it really set the stage for the work that I’m doing and still continue to do and launching the podcast and just so thank you for sharing that because you help spread the message to that grief recovery is a valid option for people to move beyond loss and grief. So share with the listeners if you wouldn’t mind the relationship with someone living for example it wasn’t someone that you went you didn’t work on a relationship with someone living in the in the grief recovery group program when we went through with the other individuals but what do you feel like when you when you after you gone through that method and you were looking at the relationship with with the people living in your life? What do you feel like was one thing that you that came out of that like what did what was an awareness or something like how did going through grm connect the dots for you in other relationships I guess having not yet worked on those relationships.
Patti 24:29
So I’ve just learned like, I can forgive people and I can mend that relationship with myself in them but not necessarily them in person. But I I only allow them to hurt me so much. Now so like I put my family first my child first so I don’t let some of those living people around us not that I don’t let them around but I just only let them So much and I know how to now handle if our relationships like I understand now why my relationship with that living person is the way it is and how I can deal with it um there’s something called PS letters and I know that for the rest of my life I will have p s s s s s s s letters with that living person so
Victoria Volk 25:20
And so what it kind of sounds like to me is that you’ve really established where you needed boundaries for yourself and your family around that relationship around those people living your life would you agree? Yes, yeah.
Patti 25:36
I took responsibility for our relationship I guess well on my end that person needs to do the rest
Victoria Volk 25:43
Right yeah, we can only work on ourselves that’s all we have control over and and one way that we can protect our energy and protect our our hearts is to create those boundaries of you know, it’s just a buffer right create like this protective shield around ourselves and it’s not to keep them out. Right?
Patti 26:05
Right. But it’s not pushing them away.
Victoria Volk 26:08
Right. It’s to protect what’s inside us within that boundary including our loved ones right? Because doing that is actually a form of self care I I’ve learned that when we create boundaries for ourselves and for you know what matters to us. That is self care and action
Patti 26:29
And how to do that with quite a few relationships now and I believe grm helped with that so
Victoria Volk 26:34
Excellent. Yeah, cause you it’s an educational program you’ll learn so much
Patti 26:39
You focus more on the tools and like I thought it was going to be more on like, I had to sit there and talk about my relationship. No, it was more based on you gave us tools how to handle situations or things or relationships. So
Victoria Volk 26:52
Yep. And every day every every week actually is like a little puzzle piece right? kind of goes together. Did you see it coming? Like in the first two weeks, like were you like, what did I get myself into?
Patti 27:05
I know there was a few of us that were little like we pushed back a little bit in the first weeks because we were like, We want to see results now. But I think in the end we were all very happy with how it went. So
Victoria Volk 27:17
It takes takes time. And because there’s so much content, there’s so much information like our brains couldn’t even really like you know, my brain had to take it all in like a matter of days. But in the Grievers mind and a Grievers heart can’t just it’s that’s not for everybody it’s really not and so that’s why it’s broken down into little chunks of information to that builds every week kind of like algebra it’s like algebra builds up every week of you know every lesson after lesson but
Patti 27:50
And I just feel like anger is just like for me it was has always been a part of grief and I think I was like pushing back because I was angry I didn’t know why I was feeling that way and that class made me feel certain things that I didn’t know I was gonna feel and so I was just pushing back a little bit but then it all buffed out in the end so
Victoria Volk 28:11
Yep it really helped you to process the anger and stuff Yeah,
Patti 28:16
Gave me the tools to do that.
Victoria Volk 28:17
Is there anything else that you would like this is your opportunity your grieving voice to share is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners today?
Patti 28:27
Just that grief can come in many forms like in my situation I thought that this whole time you know is going to be about Jared and it was about someone living but it is about Jared too it’s about at all and I just learned that it’s crazy how we can grieve living people we can grieve people who are gone we you know it’s just I think everyone is going to grieve someone or something in their lives whether they actually lost them or not. So
Victoria Volk 28:55
So I just had a thought come to my mind which I think is very important that we bring up because you got to IVF because you had a miscarriage and miscarriage as you know through grief recovery is one of the most minimize losses Do you feel like I’m I’m it’s this is me and my curiosity and we’re just you know, this is on the cuff off the cuff but do you feel like the education that you receive through grief recovery had set you up to help you process that loss in particular that? Yes, I for your husband as well
Patti 29:35
Yeah, we grieved it differently and I think some people don’t think that the men grieve it this and we don’t grieve it the same but I feel like men they just don’t think that they grieve it like women do but my husband grieved the loss of that baby and we both did and we still do we still look at around town and think our child should be that age and running around with that kid and it’s it is hard and but We’ve grown as a couple and individuals and I think even though he didn’t take the class what I have talked about like he is also taken into heart and understands a little bit so yes
Victoria Volk 30:13
Yeah and you know because grief is cumulative as cumulatively negative I think I say this on every episode but it’s so important right because if you think about like all the losses that you’ve had and you know that during this work like we you look at every loss and put in front of you, you look at it literally look at it all it could be easy to just lay back on you know, just lay down in life and just give up and just like I can’t take another thing I cannot take another thing like it’s just you know, because it stacks up one after the other. Someone who has gone through a miscarriage. What do you feel like they can do? I know you mentioned about finding your support, which is amazing. But what is it about miscarriage in particular? Because I don’t have personal experience with that. I don’t. But what is something that if I came to you and I said that I had this miscarriage? What do you feel like is the best piece of advice that you could give me?
Patti 31:25
I would just be there for you right away, like how are you doing with it? And then if you want to talk about it, then I would be that you know, listening heart with yours. But I catch myself saying, Oh my gosh, they were that far along. Or you know, at least it wasn’t after the first trimester. Like I catch myself saying that and I’m like, but I miscarried in the first trimester. And I do feel like it was just as hard as losing us like a full term baby like, I still went through the labor I still miscarried my baby like I still. It was still a person it was even though I only miscarried. And I was like 12 I was 12 weeks, but the baby died earlier. Um, I don’t know. I just, I think you got to talk about it if you want and reach out to people who have miscarried because most likely, almost every woman has had a miscarriage like most women have, and you would never know, my grandma had like five of them. So just to I talked to her I just talked to her the other day about miscarriages like back in her day to like, they just didn’t talk about it. And you don’t have to, but if you need to, there is support out there. And my question like now that I’ve gone through IVF is why, why are you miscarrying you know, if you want to do that, like if you want to have another baby, I will be there for you. And I will answer any questions that you need, like how to get started about going to the doctor. It could just be something so simple, which is sad that you had to go through a miscarriage because of that, and I would never wish a miscarriage upon anyone, because it’s awful. Um, but just, I don’t know, don’t just blow it off. Like it’s just something little because it’s not even if he miscarried at six weeks, like it’s still a miscarriage.
Victoria Volk 33:19
Exactly. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I agree. A baby is a baby. Life. Do you feel like and I don’t know, like, Can you speak to this a little bit to like that part of the problem is maybe the fact maybe why it is one of the most minimize losses is because it is not talked about because it is such a, maybe it is because people do people have this feeling you think that is so common? Like it’s,
Patti 33:47
Well, it’s one in four, one and four is that like, that’s what they’re saying one in four. And for me, I tried minimizing it by saying, you know, it’s one in four, obviously, there was something wrong with it, it couldn’t grow anymore. So you know, it kind of is a blessing, but it’s still a loss. Like whether it’s a blessing or not like whether 94 year old person dies, and it was a blessing, it’s still a loss. A loss is a loss. And if you want to feel sad about that loss, whether they’re 94 years old, or six weeks in the womb, like I just think you got to feel it.
Victoria Volk 34:18
I think that is a great place to end. A loss is a loss. And you just got to feel it. I love that. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today, Patti, for sharing your story of loss of you know, being a widow, miscarriage IVF just the losses we can experience with those living in our lives, for sharing your experience through grief recovery, for sharing that with whomever you cross paths with in your daily life. It means the world to me to spread this message that there is hope that there is something there that can help Have you have a new perspective on grief? I think that’s really kind of what it comes down to is that it doesn’t have to define the rest of your life. It doesn’t have to be the driver of your life. I think you were doing wonderful things by sharing your story with people being a heart with yours for others. We need more of that definitely in our society. So thank you for being that for people and for being on the podcast today.
Patti 35:30
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 35:31
Absolutely. Again, I will have in the show notes where you can find Patti if you want to reach out to her on the topics of IVF being a widow or miscarriage, and until next time, much love Take care.
From my heart to yours, thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Patsy Kenney: Divorce, Caretaker of Dying Parent, and Closing a Business
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patsy is my first guest interview on the podcast. She is also the first online, 1-on-1 participant to go through the newly developed online version of The Grief Recovery Method® program. The online, GRM program is a 7-week action-based proven method for helping grievers navigate and process a loss of any kind.
In this episode, Patsy shares her grieving voice around her divorce, being a caregiver to her dying father, and closing a business. And, how resiliency found her during those two years of deep grief.
Patsy also shares her voice about her search for alignment and discovery of the gifts grief brought into her life. Through her story, she shares what was helpful to her as she was knee-deep in the grief experiences and experiencing a lot of change and transition at one time.
We also scratch the surface of how we live is how we die and the resistance grievers, as well as those dying, have around death (or the very thought of it).
Be a fly on the wall of our very deep conversation and, if Patsy’s story resonates with you or, you wish to follow her journey of creation, self-discovery, and alignment, you can find her at the following:
@andcelebrate on Instagram or her website at www.andcelebrate.com
RESOURCES:
One-on-One, Online Grief Recovery Support
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of the unleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced grief recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with the ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. So today on the podcast is my first interview. And I am so pleased to have Patsy join me today to share her grieving voice and her grieving story. So thank you so much for being my first Patsy on here. And
Patsy 1:18
I am honored Victoria. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:22
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We kind of were chatting earlier about the different grief scenarios that you’ve experienced in your life. We’re just gonna dive right in.
Patsy 1:35
I love it. Let’s go. So wait.
Victoria Volk 1:39
First of all, tell us when your grieving story first really began for you?
Patsy 1:49
Yeah, well. So I would say the the intensity of the grief I’ve experienced, really has been in the last couple of years. So when I was younger, it’s not. So when I prior to meeting you Victoria, it really I would have only associated the term grief with a loss like the death loss. Probably like in my younger years, I really had sort of this idealistic upbringing. And I did not experience a whole heck of a lot of adversity in an intense way. Like, yes, we all experienced change. And there were a lot of mini moments as I reflect back now that I would now label as grief. Like I was experiencing grief at the time, but I didn’t know it. And my grandfather, my mom, my mom’s dad passed away when I was a junior in high school. And I was very close to him. I had lost my dad’s dad had passed when I was just five years old. And we didn’t spend a lot of time with them on a yearly basis, it was more of like a yearly annual visit, to see all my dad’s family and cousins and that sort of thing. So I didn’t have a very strong relationship with that grant, my paternal grandfather. And I was five so didn’t fully acts like I remember, I remember experiencing my parents grief around that are sort of questioning like, what is this emotion? What does this energy didn’t have the language for it then but this new energy that was sort of present in our home during that loss, and my parents had gone away to, to see him in his final days, really, what’s what I later learned, right, but I didn’t really have that awareness at the time. And so then I would say my first really significant loss was my, the definition of grief, as relating to death was my grandfather who passed when I was a junior in high school. And then now I’m 35 years old. And in the last few years, I’ve experienced just this tremendous flood of loss and change. And really, it started learning about a high school classmate who had passed unexpectedly in his sleep, but 33 years old, from a heart attack, and he was the type of person who just made you feel like he’s known you forever just had an amazing outlook on life, really was creating a life that he loved and living a life that he loved and had this energy about him even back then that made you feel really seen and heard and celebrated. And I admired him and even though I hadn’t seen him in many years, hearing about that loss really struck something in me and so started actually, like, really making me question, you know, if I weren’t to wake up tomorrow, would I be satisfied with the life I’m living? Would I would I, you know, go to the other side or whatever that maybe I’m feeling Like really pleased with how I’ve, I’ve been living a month later, we received no notice that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. And it was a month in waiting that we then learned it was stage four, it was terminal had metastasized to all these other organs. And he was given about a year to live. And so in that, I said, that’s where like death really entered the room, like made its presence known. And I continued that line of self questioning. So death really helped me really reevaluate how I was living. And in that, it was sort of like this, you know, you pull the string of the sweater in the hole. I, that led to a series of conversations with my then husband, that illuminated, you know, some real, we had some real deep, honest conversations about the reality of our marriage, and how we just wanted different things in life. And we weren’t actively creating a life together, we were still sort of, we’re living in the same house, you know, and have had fun together. But there wasn’t a true, like, deep, solid foundation to build a life upon together. And death really invited us to look at that and make some decisions about how we wanted to move forward. And ultimately, we decided to separate so then there was change and loss in that.
And as my dad, health started to decline over that course of the year, I, again, like in my change of moving house and reevaluate, and getting back on my feet and all this that me other, it helped me to reevaluate my business and how that was running. And I it became really clear that I was, I was not setting myself up for this sustainable growth, I was feeling burnt out the sort of vision of the heart of it all wasn’t matching the execution of it, I had sort of backed myself into this corner, and I was like, This isn’t even what I want. So that evolved, and, like I had two businesses and sort of ran for, what would I say, merged the one with the other, add two business partners that I was working with. And that was an amazing transition at the time. And I felt very supported in that. And then flash for my dad ended up passing in June of last year. And, and so there was this whole new, just like, way of being on my own, because at that point, I was no longer living with my ex, like, there was so much motion and movement and change throughout all of that. I just kept putting one foot in front of the other. And then flash forward to this the start of this year, and experiencing this global pandemic that we’re all in and reevaluating. Again, where does you know, how do I want to align my values with my business and my life and what I’m creating, and that second business, we made a decision to sunset. And so like, I don’t know how to say that in a more succinct way. But there’s been a heck of a lot of grief in the last year, a year and a half. And I’ve been doing a lot of unraveling that.
Victoria Volk 8:41
Thank you for sharing all of that. I want to go back first to to actually your first loss as a child. Um, you know, that’s 10 we that’s where we often need to start really when we start processing loss because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so sure, as a child, when you last had that loss as a five year old, I’m just curious and for our listeners as well, because we often don’t make that connection of what we are allowed or not allowed to express around grief. How did your parents seem to view your put your relationship with that grandfather? And did they address how maybe you were possibly grieving?
Patsy 9:36
No, I wouldn’t say that. I don’t think they were really conscious of it. And that’s where there’s sort of this like fogginess for me around that loss. Like I don’t, I don’t really remember processing only being more aware of what their emotions were, and feeling like I must be present for that or not ask any questions or be too inquisitive about it. It was sort of it was shared. I witnessed my dad cry. That was a first for sure. Um, he was not very emotional. He was an emotional guy, but he hit it. You know what I mean? He, he never expressed his emotions openly. And I guess I would describe that now as just sort of like, Can I was confused more than anything. There wasn’t a conversation really even about death, or? I mean, they explained what it is. But I don’t think there was active, continual conversations about it.
Victoria Volk 10:36
I think we can all agree that when there is, like heavy grief within a household within a home, that it creates ripples, right? Oh, we can agree. Oh, right?
Patsy 10:49
1,000%. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 10:50
So yeah, as a witness to grief as a young child. Even just the idea of not having the language around that or be given the language or be totally in clusion? Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. Of what your parents themselves were feeling
Patsy 11:12
We’re going through or explaining, oh, and like, I had no history of my dad’s relationship with his dad either, right? I’m, like I, I only know of him when I see him when I go to visit, like there. If you think about it now to my own brain at that moment in time, there was really no context or, yeah, that inclusion piece would have been so helpful.
Victoria Volk 11:36
I’m curious too like, in the years that followed, maybe 567 years that followed after that, was it a topic that was ever discussed? Like, was there
Patsy 11:46
I honestly don’t remember it being discussed or even an honoring of him, right, okay. Like I feel more of a connection to the honoring. Now, granted, I was older, I was a junior in high school, and my second grandfather passed away. And I was much closer to him, you know, just because we lived next door to him. But there was more of a process around the honoring, I do not remember attending, I guess I didn’t, I didn’t attend my paternal grandfather’s funeral, like I had no, I had, I had no idea of what even sort of ritual can or you know, honoring could have could happen around a death around a loss like that. Until, you know, you hear about it, you watch it on the movie you consume in other ways people around you have deaths or losses and things that you’re exposed to, but hadn’t experienced yourself. Like the first funeral, I think I attended was probably around the same timeframe that I lost my maternal grandfather.
Victoria Volk 12:44
So I’m curious when you look in hindsight, yeah. The contrast between that first loss as a child, young child do where you’re a junior in high school, was there a change? Or was there more of a communication with how you were feeling? Yes, later in life, as opposed to waiting for a child?
Patsy 13:06
Definitely, definitely. Um, and I remember the Minister of our church came over, and we had like a family meeting, it was definitely inclusive. So when they talked about how they were going to present what they were going to do, what kind of the service were they going to have, all of that was the whole family was involved. And she and she really led that meeting. So I grateful to her for that. I don’t think she realizes, till this moment, I probably hadn’t even put it all together. But she, she helped to almost emulate how those conversations can go, right? Because she was leading it. And she asked each individual grandchild, like, what was your What would you like to call out in memory of around your grandfather? What’s a specific memory you want to share? Or, you know, that kind of thing, which was really nice. And I think then, right, the cumulation of that experience, sort of it just it the other first experience feels foggy, because I had a new refreshed experience of loss of my grandfather. And in the honoring because we gathered so frequently as a family. There was more of an honoring around each first of that first year, right? So it was like, his birthday is like our gathering as a family of like, Oh, this is the first time he won’t be here with us for Thanksgiving, or he won’t be here with us for Christmas, or there was more of just like a remembrance and honoring of him. throughout those family gatherings, which I didn’t experience in the lot like in my first loss.
Victoria Volk 14:40
Do you think? I mean, when looking back now to do you think that there was a difference in relationship that may have influenced how one death was handled versus the other?
Patsy 14:54
In some ways, yes. But I Yeah, I do. It wasn’t that we weren’t close with our, you know, my dad’s side of the family, it was just a proximity thing for me like they were in New Jersey, we were in Maine. So it was like less frequent that we were seeing them I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t describe it as like, feeling less loved by them or anything like that we always had just a blast when we were all together. But I think because I was in my brother was really like a brand new baby pretty much when that loss happened. I don’t know if it was because of my age that they just thought, well, like we’re protecting her. But I don’t I feel like that would have been such an awesome learning opportunity to talk about death.
Victoria Volk 15:39
Right. And that’s the that’s kind of why I’m really kind of drilling this point. And I love it the childhood experience because we we learn 75% of how not First, we will process grief and learn about grief and how we’ll deal with it for the rest of our life by before we’re age seven or eight. By the time we’re age eight. Yep. And so those first years are the most influential on us in terms of how we process our feelings, or don’t
Patsy 16:15
So there wasn’ta whole heck of a lot of processing. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I think I thought I kind of felt it felt foreign, it felt it didn’t feel it obviously didn’t feel like safe to inquire about, it felt a little scared because of the unknown of it. It was like they they went away for four or five days came back. And then I remember being like Papa darp passed away. Like, I don’t think I even knew he was sick. Hmm. You know, because our, again, our inter now we talk about our family and other updates all the time. And I have my own relationships with my aunts and uncles, my dad’s siblings, and my cousins and all of that. But like, there was never I don’t remember a conversation about because they were probably talking about it when I went to bed or whatever. Like I don’t remember even over hearing like Papa DARPA’s sick. And this, you know, like there was no, there was no context or heads up, like this is a possibility, you know, or even when they were leaving, I didn’t know why they left.
Victoria Volk 17:24
Which and that’s this isn’t unusual. No. And so this is where this educational piece comes in. For you, parents who are listening, who have a child who has gone through or is going through a grieving experience. This is why it’s so important that we have an awareness around that. Children grieve, too. And it’s just as important to tell the emotional truth about yourself to your child, so that you emulate that example of what it means to share our emotional truth, and getting the conversation going around what that child may be feeling. Because what is not a big deal to us adults, like we the child can be making the biggest deal about something and to us, it’s like what is the big deal? Like, right, you know, and to the child. It’s like, it’s not even usually about the thing we think it’s about No, right? You know, for example, there’s two, there’s a story I heard there was a child whose grandpa father had passed away, but they would plant flowers every year. And every year, they would watch these flowers bloom. And the grandfather passed away. After they had planted flowers, when he passed away before they saw them bloom. And the house was sold. And this child was so upset that he wasn’t going to see their flowers bloom. But they didn’t you know, that nobody made the connection that, you know, what’s the big deal with the flowers? And it was that the grandfather said, we will see these bloom Bloom? Yeah, like it was their shared experience. Yeah, of course, once the Koreans had this awareness about it, and discuss. Right, right, and how can we address this? how can how can we help you? And they realized, well dig up the flowers. Yeah, yeah. Bring them to our ring so you can learn
Patsy 19:29
New home and plant them? Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, that’s beautiful. But it’s true and and then as a child, if you don’t have the language for it, you can see how quickly and easily that gets brushed under the rug doesn’t get addressed. Again, you know, can come up like you said, I love the way you phrase like it’s cumulative. And if you’re not aware of what’s under the surface, you know, that can really impact. I mean,
Victoria Volk 19:55
What we don’t see what we don’t see and what we sweep to the side Yep, within us, right? I want to make a point to and bring up. You talked about alignment and, you know, emotional truth. And how you had this awareness around you weren’t really living in alignment. Yeah, so grief kind of was that door that opened that awareness to you, right? It did, it really did.
Patsy 20:26
Which is fascinating to me, because I had been actively working toward building a life of alignment for years, a good number of years. But, you know, I know, I feel like if I were to put the word death out there, it’s often like, associated with heaviness, right, there’s like, I think society there is a, like a negative connotation about it. And that could just be my own perception, but there’s a feeling around it that it’s sort of this this thing that like, we don’t talk about, and it’s shocking to us when it arrives and it’s like it’s just this dance of strangeness around
Victoria Volk 21:11
We’re immortal. We’re immortal.
Patsy 21:15
And the thing that the only effing guarantee that we have in the human experience is death like that that’s the one guarantee and it is shocking to me that like we forget that instantly like we have to remind ourselves of it minute to minute sort of thing right and but what’s so cool about it is that it is this extreme clarifier like when you take any decision you have to make and put that up against like death like time right this is another thing so that is associated with time How much time do you have I mean, the conversation I could go on too we could have a whole podcast episode about time and waiting like when you are diagnosed with something How much time do you have you know, how is it going to happen when is it going to happen Death is inevitable it’s been it has been you know, stated galvanized ballots, you have only an you know, a finite amount of time left are we going to use your time and so that sort of invitation to evaluate that really clicked everything into place for me and I know I mean, our journeys here are constantly evolving, we’re learning we’re growing right? But that was no doubt a catalyst for all the other change I saw in the last year and a half. And now if I think back I can easily get my body to that place of like, tension that I felt and misalignment that I was living and that just like low level thing that it’s like a feeling it’s intangible it’s just this low level hum I guess it’s not quite right. But I didn’t have enough data to even know what to change until death entered the room and it’s amazing to me how because I’ve had that experience and come through it that continues to be a filter for me when I’m making even small decisions
Really
because I guess for me the alignment factor if I’m living in alignment with with my truth then at the end of the day no matter when I go like I can feel that level of satisfaction I started questioning like yes there’s so much more things I want to do here so much more I want to experience in this lifetime so much more I want to create and just like fully live I think that was another thing like there was this energy within my relationship I would have described it as fine a friend of mine and I were talking about this the other night and I was like what fine isn’t living to me like five minutes Fine fine is monotone fine is going through the motions. It’s not experiencing the highs and lows of life like truly embracing them like sort of what can I learn from them all of those things. I was doing that in my own way but within the context of my marriage within my partnership it was there it fell flat I felt flat and I’m like whatever happens on the other side of whenever we die like that’s a whole nother topic too. But if I get to that place like I want to feel like I really like enjoyed this lifetime that I experienced it
Victoria Volk 24:46
Fine doesn’t equal fun right now, and in grief recovery. What do we say about fine its feelings inside not it’s not expressed. And what my dear listeners Miss Patsy has actually gone through the grief recovery method with me. We’ll get to that. Yeah, we’ll speak to that in a little bit. But I want to also give you the opportunity to share a little bit about how the transition like how did you get from? Okay, well, death came in the room. Oh my gosh, I have all this awareness about how misaligned I feel. Yeah. Like what needs to change in my life. And that transition. Can you speak to that transition a little bit? And how in terms of the role that grief may have played in Yeah, how you process that? How you made it, okay with yourself, like how, you know, because it takes courage. It takes courage to Yeah, open the door, first of all, and not shot it.
Patsy 25:55
Totally the door. It was open. And I yeah, that’s such a great way to continue that analogy. It’s true, I think.
Victoria Volk 26:04
Do you feel like because like, for me, it was like one more loss that like, took me over the edge, like, Oh, my gosh, I’m not okay. Like, it’s been over 30 years, and I’ve had a lot of loss in between but this next loss like this, did it like this? Is it this is the cherry on top? Did you have that experience where it was like, Okay, this is it like?
Patsy 26:25
Well, I think, I think when my friend passed what I learned if my friends passing, that was like the knock on the door, and then when the diagnosis when my dad’s diagnosis came through, that just like bursts the door right open. And then death was standing there in a room for a year. And that’s a whole nother like, just talking about transition. When he when he finally passed, there was a relief. And I think this is another thing that people probably I mean, I struggled with too, because because his decline has helped decline was so slow, and just really, really hard to witness, really hard to witness. Toward the end, I was literally praying for it to be over. Like for him, for us, for everyone who was involved, like, because it was getting to that point of just like, a piece has to come soon. Like this is this is really challenging, you know. And so inside of that, like energy, I was also processing change. And in some ways it was my life had been up ended. And part of that was my choice, right. And I had temporarily moved, it was like I was taking, I was only taking one step forward with each new like phase. So I moved out into my friend’s really tiny bedroom, which is basically an oversized closet, I had enough room for a single bed and like a few of my things. And then I moved apart like I moved my office, which was at my home into a little shared workspace. It felt like the transitions and change just never never stopped for that concentrated period of time. How did I meander and like navigate them? I really allowed myself to feel throughout all of it. I’m not really sure. I think Sorry, it’s taken me a long time to answer this question. But I feel like, as I’m reflecting on this, knowing my dad was gonna pass it, it created this level of important like things that really matter. Like the A brings the things that really matter to the surface, right. And so standing in my truth and having these courageous conversations with my then husband, getting through that alone, I almost like built my strength in that first phase. And so I was like, if I can do that I can do anything, I have to move again, no big deal, I have to change my office space, no big deal. I have to you know, and so it’s almost it’s interesting to that, that as we talk about grief cumulating that like strength was cumulating. For me, my resilience was cumulating. And so then when my dad was declining, and I was I was really his primary caregiver for a number of months. And we had help from hospice and then ultimately toward the end we had another nurse come in to relieve us from nights and my brother was very present and all of that my mom was very present and all of that too. And his his family but because of the way my schedule worked within the I had created my own business I was able to be present frequently for that extended period of time whereas everybody else’s work schedules were, you know, anyway, being in that actually helped Like all the other transitions actually help staying present. And enough, right there wasn’t that weren’t days of frustration or just like completely, like burnout was imminent, I can feel it coming, I knew that there was going to be an end, that that phase was temporary. And I did my best within that phase to find something to be grateful for every day, even if it was a small thing. And to kind of like stay anchored and hope and, and remind myself that there’s, I really believe that like, life is working out for us, not to us if we’re present to it and engaging with it. And so there was there was meant to be healing, I was meant to be that person, I didn’t aspire to be that person, I never dreamt that I would have that rule. Like, it’s not even one I wanted. But I took it on. And it actually was really beautiful. In terms of like, healing my relationship with my dad, and being able to be in a place of being that caregiver and provider that he always took. So, you know, in pride growing up, does that answer your question? Or did I go on a very long tangent?
Victoria Volk 31:16
No, that’s great. It actually brought to light. Another thing that I want to bring attention to, for my readers or listeners, readers, listeners, is that you had this awareness i what i hear you saying is that you had an awareness that you can do hard things. Yeah. You know, I can do hard things. Yeah, this is going to be hard. You made it through it, you can use it. And what does that do for us? that builds our confidence, right?
Patsy 31:49
It does totally, I think right now, yeah, like, little things happen. And that’s interesting to God, we can talk about this for a long time. But like, when you are in that space, right, where you’re, you’re navigating through the hard things, your world becomes really narrow. Like the things I cared about before I truly, I don’t care about now. Like in a lot of ways if I had a false caring for it, because I thought I should care about it. Because somebody somebody else’s view influenced, like my caring for the thing. Now I’m just like, it’s so clear to me, like where I stand, like, where the line is drawn. And so which has been a really awesome power tool now, like, inner power thing, as I’m re you know, rebuilding my life, in which direction I want to go. And I love that you called attention to that because it builds confidence, it builds clarity. And just this this like, inner knowing that no matter what the heck comes down the pipe, which I know that’s life, life is gonna life. I’m just gonna, like there’s gonna be more hard things. That’s no question. But I I’m living, knowing that’s inevitable, but enjoying the ride. Like actively seeking out the joy inside of that to have I think really helped. The density, like, alleviate the density that I was feeling in it, because that that was, like ever present. You know, I like reflect on it back now. And I can I can immediately get that tightness in my stomach. So I don’t think I knew sorry, I just I don’t think I knew that I was resilient. Prior to that.
Victoria Volk 33:45
You found it within yourself. In the process. Yeah, I would agree the same for myself. Yeah, grief is funny like that, huh? We get these we get these unexpected. And I can hear that I can just see the eyes roll. You know, the gifts. I knew. I knew. Like, okay, I can see the eyes rolling, you know, but really, truly I’m telling you this I’m over 30 years, over 30 years. Yeah, I’ve grieved losses and trauma in my life. And to be able to not be one of those people rolling my eyes. Like, it is like I can say now I am on the other side. Alright, grief, like it’s no longer in the driver’s seat of my life. And that’s what I ultimately hear in your message as well as that it’s not in the driver’s seat anymore. That suckers in the back in the trunk locked. Locked in the trunk, but released. Actually, you know, it’s a beautiful way Put it. I would say I’ve seen it in the car. It’s not even in the car.
Patsy 35:04
It is it is released as like it’s changed form. Yes. Right. I feel. I feel like it’s changed form and it’s definitely lost. It’s Um
Victoria Volk 35:16
It’s all in change to you. Yeah. Yeah. There you have it. Yes. And that’s why I’m the unleashed heart. It’s like, I was leashed, you know, yes. leashed to this thing.
Patsy 35:33
Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like living right. So my philosophy on life, is to live on leash. That’s why we have such alignment and like kinship and immediate friendship and resonance with each other, because you can feel free even within constraints. And I think that was sort of my practice to in that space of being the caregiver for my dad was like, how can I access even a moment or a minute of freedom inside this experience, and, and the cool part of that was, you know, there were days, like I said, that I was frustrated that I was praying for it to be a different outcome than it was. And at some point, in that journey, I surrendered, I released the expectation of how long it would take, I surrendered to the like, I accepted, like, accepted that this is the journey, like this is the this is the path I’m on and shifted my energy around that. And there was release and relief in the release of that, and he hadn’t passed yet. So before he passed, there was some sort of shift in my energy around it, too.
Victoria Volk 36:46
Would you say that you changed how you perceived the situation? Like your perception, like you allowed yourself to be open to a new perspective? Totally what was happening? Totally. Yep, I too, like, you know, I was eight when my dad passed away, but he survived like he was he hung on for two years. It’s amazing. And he was a lot of he was a stage for it diagnosis. So too, it’s, it’s, I could actually I want to go on a whole nother episode on that on just like, how we, especially if we have not allowed ourselves to process grief, how that impacts the transition for someone who is dying. Oh, my guy, like,
Patsy 37:33
Right guy. I don’t even think of that. But that’s so true.
Victoria Volk 37:33
Right? like how I read a story just recently, and I’m not going to get too far into this because this is a whole nother This is a whole episode all by itself, that I want to give it justice to, but it really just opened my eyes to, to what I read, it was talking about how, for example, let’s just say I’m in a room because I actually used to do hospice care, home health and hospice. Which isn’t a surprise to me, because I’ve, I have a really long relationship with death in my life. So it was no surprise that I you know, I worked in a nursing home as a certified nursing assistant, I’ve been around death, all my life. So what I didn’t really consider though, was how, as we are grieving, and if we have not allowed ourselves to process what we’re feeling and were shut off emotionally from what is the reality of what is happening, like our loved one is transitioning our loved one is actively dying. And working through that process. If we How do it’s like, I’m just having this thought, like, how does that impact the person who is passing? Like, how does how does our resistance to them pass? Yeah
Yeah, impacting them? Like, is that why they’re hanging on? Yeah, is that’s a great point, you know,
Patsy 39:00
Great, great, great point. And that was a whole other thing too. Resistance to passing. So my dad definitely held that resistance to passing I witnessed his his fear around this the fear, right, the fear around it. And so it was interesting, a very interesting exercise for me and and a test of faith as well. Because yes, it’s bringing up my own stuff, witnessing him reached this point, right of his life, but also witnessing his his journey of acceptance to this is what’s inevitable, right and so there, there was a strong resistance. Now it’s interesting, I wouldn’t say he was resistant in the sense that like he’s gonna suck the rest of the life out of the time. He has here kind of thing like, charge for Word and, quote, live the way I was describing before. But it was like he didn’t want to move, because he was afraid it was gonna happen. And so it was like the opposite end of the spectrum.
Victoria Volk 40:12
And can you imagine the grief then the one who is transitioning is feeling because they cannot emotionally express their fear. They can’t emotionally express what they’re experiencing and feeling. Because the people in the room are so closed off and resistant to what is happening. Like, we don’t think about how our energy that we bring to the room in a situation like that impacts the person who’s actually trying to transition. And I’ve just like, I just had like this total. Yeah, I I’m
Patsy 40:50
So like, full full body goosebumps on that one, for sure.
Victoria Volk 40:54
I’m so digging into this topic more, because I think it’s so important, like when I think about the whole premise of this podcast is to give Grievers the opportunity to share their grieving story, right, their grieving voice. Someone who’s already past obviously can’t, doesn’t have that opportunity. But I feel like there’s a part of me that needs to be a voice for someone who’s transitioning because I’ve seen it so many times. And because families that are and
Patsy 41:22
you’re sorry, Yeah, go ahead.
Victoria Volk 41:25
You know, hearing is one of is the last sense to go. And I just recall, being in rooms, where the family is talking, like they’re not there. That’s like, I can hear you. They can hear you. You know, and so it’s it’s actually bringing to attention. What can I do as a loved one who’s watching my loved one transition? What can I do to mainly hat? Okay.
Patsy 41:57
Yes, I, I was like, seeking those resources in that time. I really was. And I feel like I was conscious of his fear. And so I, I did my best to normalize the process, even though I’d never witnessed it before. And to just sit there and be present with him. And you know, it’s, it’s every relationship is different to right. And, and every death experience is different. And it was it was just this really, as sad and hard. And like, challenging as it was, it was actually it was, it was there were some really beautiful moments too, because I hadn’t spent that much time with him. I mean, maybe ever, in that way, like growing up as a kid, like, he’s present. He’s there, but he was working. And he was, you know, it wasn’t like you’re, you’re sitting with each other for hours at a time. For an inevitable like, for it. Um, we don’t know how long, right? So it was just this really interesting shift. It was deep, like an intimate experience, you know? And in some ways, I feel like I yeah, I was there to reassure him that it would be okay, even though I don’t frickin know, I had faith that it’s gonna be okay. That it would be lighter than what he was experiencing in that moment. You know?
Victoria Volk 43:34
And when you look back too that time, it’s Do you feel like, what a blessing it was that you allowed yourself to have those conversations that you may not have had otherwise? Or? It doesn’t. I mean, when we do that, it helps to bring emotional completion to certain things, you know, they can, they can transition and, you know, go on to the next life I, you know, whatever you believe, but, and that’s another topic in and of itself to
Patsy 44:07
A lot of topics out of this conversation. No, I completely agree. Um, the other thing that eye has stuck with me, and I don’t know if you’d heard this in your time as a hospice care, nurse, or just in your experience of life and death. One of the nurses said to me, and this was really funny and fitting, and it actually this probably was the thing that helped me reach that place of acceptance a little bit. She said, you know, in my experience, the way you’ve lived, your life, is the way you’re gonna die. Or is the way you’ll pass essentially. So your relationship to life is your relationship to death and how you pass and so for those who, you know, were stubborn, resistance to resistant to change, that sort of thing. It’s usually a longer, more stubborn drawn out process. For those who are really like go with the flow open to life open to all of these things. It generally happens more quickly and I just burst out laughing because that was my dad’s personality he was completely resistant to change. He lived a lot of his life, you know, in that space of, right like, I like there was of a general cautiousness about him. He didn’t take a heck of a lot of risks. You know, he was very like comfortable in his small little life. That is not to say don’t say that to diminish it. Right. But there was a level of comfort he did not stray too far out of his lifetime. And so the fact that I mean hospice we chose the hospice he chose the hospice route in January and he didn’t pass until the middle of late June.
Victoria Volk 46:01
That’s fascinating. It is fast. I wholeheartedly agree with that nurse to I can I can just think of certain relationships of people passing and things and and yeah, I would have
Patsy 46:16
an yeah interesting that
Victoria Volk 46:18
I think it’s actually to like I think we live in fear of life itself. Like we’re fearful beings, anyway, like fear is the driver of our DeSoto lanes. And but I think it is because I think fears a driver, because we have not, we have this emotional dis ease within us that we kind of we’ve spoken about this before. But it closes us off to our to living like grief puts a veil of our perception of life. And early eventual, and we can’t see we just can’t we don’t see the world as it is we see it, either. How we want it to be or how it was how it was or how we wish it was we wish it was right grief is the loss of hopes dreams and expectations and anything we wish it would have been different better or more we get so hung up emotionally on on those Zoo experiences that cause those feelings. We do that maybe they fearful Yeah.
Patsy 47:34
So true. And even in that it’s so interesting, you bring that up too. And I think for me, again, it was sort of illuminating and reaffirming to embrace life and and enjoy it and like truly live it in the witnessing of my dad’s passing and being with him. And all that time. And there were moments where he would reflect back on something. And I would have these moments where I was like, you’re still holding on to that, like, so far from my memory, you know, and just I can’t even think of a good example at the moment, but several occasions where I had that awareness where I was like, wow, that has been building and we talked about energy right and I really believe it like if we can feel our feelings and process and utilize the the framework that you have exposed me to which I’m so so grateful for, to work through that to unhinge those hang ups that we have because it gets stuck. Like if I sort of look back in retrospect and sort of what I know of his life and his upbringing and those conditioning and and where that fear got hung up in his life and kind of kept him in place for a long time. No wonder, you know that there was this energetic build up there at that lead to dis ease. You know, say this is fascinating.
Victoria Volk 49:01
This is a perfect transition to bring up then the grief recovery work and the grief recovery method that you had experienced because I feel like for me, I know it connected. All of the dots. So many. So many. So yeah, can you speak to your experience now for the listeners? Patsy went through the seven week grief recovery method online one on one with me. And we recently finished up and so yeah, I couldn’t think of a better guess than someone who’s gone through one have gone through the method with me. So can you speak to your experience?
Patsy 49:49
Oh gosh, yes. And I’m so grateful you’ve asked me to be on because I want the whole world to know about this resource that I known you speak of first. long as I’ve known you, and I’ve been very intrigued by it, and, and then obviously moving through all that I moved through in terms of change and transition in the last couple years, it was it is the perfect tool for continuing to process and re release really, so much residual, emotional. I want to I don’t even have a word for it, you see me using my hands, energy energy in your day. And I shared with you at the beginning that like I knew this would be beneficial, I was open to the process. But I also wasn’t feeling in my day to day life that I was weighed down to the point of not living, right. Like I didn’t feel like I was stuck in grief per se when we started this process. But let me tell you, what this process has done is like taken that really it’s elevated the relief and provided just this new layer of peace, I didn’t even realize I need it. Like I knew I needed it, I knew it was gonna be beneficial, but I didn’t recognize like really truly how beneficial it would be. And part of the process is yes, acknowledging death, but really reorienting our definition of grief itself, which is loss and change right of expectations, you just went through it so beautifully. And it helped me see just how much change I’ve gone through in my lifetime not just concentrated to the last few years, but really helped me provide a perspective and reach a new sense of compassion within myself for all that I enjoyed and was never labeling as grief. And so that was amazing because it was like, Oh, this residual energy as at has been taking up space and excited me all this time and I didn’t even really realize it and I’m somebody who has been actively seeking and putting myself in the way of self development work for a long time now like over a decade probably being active in that space of awareness and unpacking and and unbecoming as our mutual friend talks about. And so I found this so beneficial not only for to kind of unpack the last couple of years, specific relationships and knowing that now this framework can be used forevermore, that is like excited me beyond measure. And the work that I didn’t expect actually, well I had a little bit of an inkling because we’ve you know, we’re friends, we’ve been talking about it, but the work around grief within relationships that are still present today. So with the living relationships with the living, that was a game changer has been a game changer. And I think prior to meeting you, I would have guessed that the work would have been done around relationships with people who have passed
Victoria Volk 53:12
Well, and we often don’t see what we’re feeling with real in terms of our and when we think about our relationships with the living we often don’t think about what we’re experiencing as as great as that right? But again, the definition of grief recovery Institute defines grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations and anything we wish would have been different better or more or would be different better or more. And so that’s where like with the living when you have this like Aha, like okay, well they’re never going to change sometimes especially with family we can’t choose who our family is. But it is going through this process and doing this work. I know for me, I was able to then look at that relationship with a new perspective. Totally compassion
Patsy 54:08
Compassion such a big one.
Victoria Volk 54:10
Yeah, take one instead of being filled with anger or resentment. It’s it’s not condoning No, not like dismissing what has been done to hurt you or anything like that. It is what this did for me and I you can speak to it for yourself as well after I share but it Ah that’s why is why that person does this. That’s why because we when we look back on the relationship and how we grew up, how we grew up is how our parents grew up grew up. Because this cycle which is why let’s talk about grief, like we talk about the weather let’s kind of address the elephant in the room. Yeah in our in our hearts in our His in our homes like this is our pandemic. I say yes, yes. demak? Yes, let’s, let’s address this thing. So that the cycle stops, so that we don’t continue to teach and be ample of what it is. What is harming us in the law?
Patsy 55:24
Totally, totally. It. I mean, I’m not a parent. Yet God willing, someday, if that works out for me, I feel like every parent or new coming parents should go through this work truly like it is it is life changing. And it will change the relationships with the living you have today. Because as we talked about reaching that new perspective, or that new level of something shifted, and an energetic shift happened, when I was coming to accept my dad’s death and his, his path to death, right, the way he passed and all that. When you reach a level of acceptance, for another person who’s living, it immediately changes the dynamic within the relationship, and they don’t even know how or why it changed. That’s the beauty of this work, too. You’re not forced to face someone unwillingly, who may not accept what you have to say, this is an internal process and such a gift to be able to sit and feel witnessed and heard and seen from a loving individual yourself. In this case, who I love so much. You call it a heart with ears. Yeah, right? finding someone who has a heart with yours. So to bear witness to your story, to what you’re uncovering to your emotion to all of that, in a way that feels very safe. And love, yeah, loving. That’s the key word that keeps coming where and what’s really amazing to me, too. And obviously, we technology is so incredible that we could do this and be in different states, but still feel that presence of acceptance and reassurance that like, you know, your feelings are valid. And both of both, like, you know, polarities exist in the same moment, regardless of circumstances, or person or experience, right, like we can, we can honor and hold space for the way we were feeling. But also see how someone else’s perspective would create a feeling within them and acknowledge that too. And so there’s so much healing in that. And the magical part is you don’t even have to have those conversations with the person. You’re processing your grief around amazing. It’s so incredible. It’s so incredible. So thank you for exposing me to this. I just feel it’s so powerful. And seven weeks is nothing in the realm of thing
Victoria Volk 58:07
Blew just flies, it flies, right.
Patsy 58:10
That was crazy. I look back and I’m like what I feel like we just got started. So yeah, I feel I feel like an inner peace as a result of the work.
Victoria Volk 58:20
And you have the tools in your backpack, right in your back pocket for the rest of my life now, right? Exactly the knowledge right to bring to other people to bring to other relationships to create ripples in your life. Right? That’s exactly what this does this work creates ripples. When we do the work on ourselves. It creates ripples.
Patsy 58:45
It really does. Because that whole idea of resistance, right? Like, if you’re resistant, resisting and engage, you know, like, say for example, like okay, I’m going to see my mom this weekend. And then there’s resistance around that because you’re already anticipating like how this is going to go, right?
Victoria Volk 59:04
Yeah
Patsy 59:05
You create more aches like they’re there. You just create more resistance like nothing is running smoothly. You’re like this is you know, just talking off the cuff. But anybody can relate to that where Yep, you create a story, the stories read a story, the story is playing out it’s already written you can already see it going and sure enough, there you are having the argument in the kitchen again, whatever. If you show up to that weekend, just accepting and like knowing like, Okay, this is how it is like I’ve laughed more and I don’t know if anybody’s ever gonna see the backdrop but I’m here in Maine, where my family is this week, I just moved into a tiny cabin. I had been living in my mom and grandmother’s home for the last week and a half and it’s really interesting to witness bear in their relationship, status, shareholders and the resistance they both have but ultimately really want the same thing you know, So I brought a new level of acceptance to the situation, circumstance, you know, the circumstance and just the dynamic, knowing what I was walking into. I was just like, Alright, here we go, I have left more this week than I have felt frustrated.
Victoria Volk 1:00:14
And what do you think that does for creating connection?
Patsy 1:00:19
But the thing that everybody wants exactly? spontaneous
Victoria Volk 1:00:23
Yeah, you know, how can we connect with other people, when we got these residual stories already playing out in our minds of what’s going to happen, how it’s going to happen? What’s going to be said, and we’re just going to leave our spaces and be annoyed with each other in irritated? And where’s the connection, then?
Patsy 1:00:39
There isn’t there. And that’s the beauty in it. You know, that is the beauty of it. So powerful.
Victoria Volk 1:00:49
So I want to we, I think we’re like, this amazing conversation could go on for hours, I’m sure. But I do want to get to one question, what is the best piece of advice you ever received, when you were deep in your grief?
Patsy 1:01:13
To feel it, and to just remember that it’s temporary, like it’s, I almost started to embody it like, okay, a wave would wash over me, and I would allow it to come up and through me, right, like, I didn’t resist, if I, if I if something struck me and brought me to tears, I like allowed myself to try it out. If something struck me and brought me to laughter, I would rate I would sort of like lean into it, knowing that it was sort of temporary, and it felt like I could go with the flow of the way it was actually I became the wave a little bit, as opposed to like, swimming against it, resisting it. That helped a lot. And also, we’ve talked about this a lot, because you are a heart with ears, this is the work that you do. If you have someone in your life that can be that for you, like you recognize that they have the capacity to hold space for you in that way, have that vulnerable conversation to ask them to be that in moments when you need it. Because sometimes you just need to be you just need a heart with your eyes, you just need to shout it out or cry it out, or have somebody sit with you in that pain. And that’s not a job for everybody. And there’s also I think a certain level of, well, there’s certainly a level of deep vulnerability that comes with sharing a space like that with someone. So the importance of safety comes to mind, you know, like feeling like you can do that without being judged, right?
Victoria Volk 1:02:45
Which is the whole premise of grief recovery work. This method is a structured safe environment
Patsy 1:02:53
Incredible. Yeah, incredible.
Victoria Volk 1:02:56
And what do you think is a characteristic of someone who has, you know, if someone’s sitting here listening to this, they’re driving down the road? And they’re like, thinking in their mind? Well, who could who was in my life? That would? would be that for me? Or could be that for me? What do you think is a characteristic of that person? I have something in mind, but I’m curious what your answer is.
Patsy 1:03:18
I can’t wait to hear yours. First thing that comes to mind is that person, a person who is is championing you. Like for me, my friend Deb comes to mind and it’s like, she will always fight for my most evolved self. So like in moments of doubt, so we’re not talking necessarily about the pain of loss, but we’re talking about Okay, making a decision or something and I’m doubting myself or I’m starting to, like lean toward, lean into, like programming I’ve received over time, there’s this intimate level of like, she sees me in my, she sees the truth underneath, whatever I may be presenting to her. And so she she’s going to hold me to that truth. She’s not going to just accept what I’m saying for face value, or tell me what I want to hear necessarily. Right? Like to keep me safe or it’s comfortable.
Victoria Volk 1:04:17
So it’s the person that calls you on your bias.
Patsy 1:04:20
Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Um,
Victoria Volk 1:04:25
Also too I think we had talked earlier before but the one thing too i thought was that I picked up on that you said that I think is an important characteristic and this is your so it’s not mine, but it’s yours, but it’s something I want to bring to attention for our listeners is that it’s someone who asks you how can I be there for you? How do I like what does it look like for me to be there for like, do you need just need me to sit here and listen, do you need me to do you want my InSite like asks you, like they asked you what you need. And I think that was a very important characteristic that you brought to light on, on a relationship that you have in your life of someone who would be a good heart with yours for you.
Patsy 1:05:15
Absolutely. And there’s a level of self awareness that they have right? within themselves, so
Victoria Volk 1:05:21
Awhoo, that’s good, too. Like, they’ve maybe done some personal development work themselves. And, you know, like you said, sense of awareness.
Patsy 1:05:31
Sense of awareness, becauseit’s like, you know, if I, if I call, and I think of this in reverse to, like, how have I been able to be that person for others in my life, but if the person is you, though, however, however, way the exchange unfolds, if I’m the one calling you, and I’m in tears, right? Sometimes I don’t even know what I need. So that’s one thing, but to have like, to you as the heart with yours, to have the awareness that those tears aren’t about you. Right? Or like, I, sometimes I find myself in this dance, because so often, we do share experiences, all of our, our all of our experiences are individual, but there’s a commonality or resonance in some of the life experiences that we have, right? As humans, so there can be a tendency within myself to want to share the experience I’ve had that may be similar, right? to yours. But in these I think specifically around processing grief, it’s recognizing, again, what what’s most helpful and asking that question, as opposed to projecting on to that person, like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel. Yes. You know, what I mean,
Victoria Volk 1:06:49
Which is what we tend to do in grief is we tend to compare losses and yeah, and try to create a connection, right? Where you may not feel a connection in that area of life, you know, right. Right. Right. So good, such a good conversation. Is there anything else that well, first of all, you are you have talked about your business, business transition? If someone is interested in reaching out to you based on something you shared, or can feel a connection to you in some way listening and hearing your grieving voice? Where can they find you a Patsy?
Patsy 1:07:35
Oh, good question. Um, I am rebuilding a business called and celebrate and I’m on Instagram over there @andcelebrate the word and spelled out, And the celebrate. And my website is coming soon. There’s a it’s exciting time because it’s, it’s in creation right now. Much of what I will be talking about through that platform really has a lot of key themes to what we talked about today. My vision is to create a platform that celebrates the human experience and all its messy, glorious, triumphant, not so shun sunshiny magical moments, you know, and to be sharing human human stories and expression of what it’s like to live. And so you can find me over there. And then my email address is [email protected]
Victoria Volk 1:08:36
Wonderful. I absolutely cannot wait to see and celebrate, make its re nude debut. Thank you amazing just like you inside out some, because I have no doubt it is a direct expression of who you are. Beautiful inside and out. So thank you for being a friend. Thank you.
Patsy 1:09:00
Oh Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:09:01
Thank you for being my first guest.
Patsy 1:09:05
I’m so honored. Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:09:08
Thank you for trusting in me to walk you through the grief recovery and to be there for you in that way and for sharing all with me that you have. Thank you for sharing your grieving voice with my listeners today. So thank you. Yes, you’re welcome. And thank you for listening. We’ll be back next week with another interview.
Patsy 1:09:35
Incredible, I can’t wait to continue listening to the grieving voices as you host here on this platform.
Victoria Volk 1:09:41
Thank you so much, Patsy. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting Know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
