Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Amidst the challenges of her daughter Dahlia’s rare condition, MERRF Syndrome, this week’s guest, Jessica Fein, also faced the crushing blows of losing her father and both sisters during the same trying period. Her story is a tapestry of sorrow and strength, woven with threads of love and loss that resonate deeply with the human experience.
The uncertainties surrounding her daughter’s diagnosis added layers of complexity to Dahlia’s health, making it a daunting task to predict her future. Jessica’s unwavering determination to advocate for her daughter, alongside the weight of her losses, paints a poignant picture of courage in the face of adversity.
As Dahlia’s health declined, necessitating intensive care and tough decisions, Jessica grappled with the harsh reality that not everything could be fixed. Her transition from seeking a cure to enhancing Dahlia’s quality of life reflects a mother’s boundless love and commitment to her child’s well-being.
Throughout the episode, Jessica’s reflections on witnessing her loved ones’ pain and her journey through grief and healing resonate with a profound sense of vulnerability and resilience. Her ability to find glimmers of joy and connection (with herself, friends, and spouse) amidst the darkness speaks volumes about the human spirit’s capacity for hope and strength amid hardship.
Jessica’s story reminds us of the intricate dance between love and loss, woven together with threads of grace and fortitude. Her journey embodies the transformative power of facing life’s most challenging trials with unwavering love, compassion, and a resilient spirit that shines through even in the darkest times.
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Embracing Joy Amidst Grief – Lessons from Dahlia’s Story
In our fast-paced world, the juxtaposition of joy and sorrow often leaves many bewildered. We tend to compartmentalize emotions, believing that happiness and sadness are mutually exclusive. However, life’s complexities defy such simplistic categorization. This profound realization came to light through a remarkable individual named Dahlia.
The Essence of Dahlia
Dahlia was an embodiment of joy despite her battles with MERRF Syndrome (Myoclonic Epilepsy with Ragged Red Fibers), a rare degenerative mitochondrial disease affecting about 2 in 1,000,000 people. Diagnosed at five years old after showing early developmental delays, she lived until seventeen radiating spunkiness and charm even as her condition worsened over time.
Her mother Jessica Fein shares how Dahlia taught her invaluable lessons on navigating life’s dichotomies—how it is possible to feel immense pain yet still find moments filled with laughter and love.
Balancing Joy And Sorrow
Jessica observed how seamlessly Dahlia managed to intertwine joy amidst suffering—a lesson reshaping our understanding of emotional coexistence:
“She was able to feel honestly everything there was—to feel like sadness or anger or jealousy—and still be joyful.”
This revelation underscores that embracing all facets—fearful anguish alongside fun-filled meaning—is essential for holistic living rather than viewing them as opposing forces.
Compartmentalization As A Coping Mechanism
One effective strategy shared by Jessica involves ‘compartmentalizing’ overwhelming situations into manageable parts akin to pointillism art technique focusing on specifics without getting daunted by the bigger picture:
“I consider myself proficient at compartmentalization which I view essential functioning amid overwhelming circumstances.”
Such mindfulness helps navigate daily challenges while preserving mental sanity during trying times like caregiving responsibilities coupled with work commitments simultaneously balancing personal aspirations too!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of grieving voices. I’m excited to share with you today my guest, Jessica Fein. She is the author of breathtaking, a memoir of family, dreams, and broken jeans. And hosts of the podcast. I don’t know how you do it, which features people whose lives seem unimaginable and who triumph over seemingly impossible challenges. Her writing has appeared in Newsweek, Psychology Today, The Boston Globe, Huffpost, scary mommy, zippy zippy Maeg, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler,
Jessica Fein: kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler,
Victoria Volk: kebler, kebler, kiabler, and and, and more. And, more. And more. And more. Jessicaiahiah, and to a rare disease in twenty twenty two. Her work encompasses hope and humor, grit and grace, the tools that make up her personal survival kit. And thank you so much for your time today and sharing your story with my listeners and myself.
Jessica Fein: Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk: And so I actually would like to start out by taking us back in time to how this rare disease came about? How you learned about it? What your daughter’s name is? First of all,
Jessica Fein: My daughter’s name is Dahlia.
Victoria Volk: Oh, what a beautiful name?
Jessica Fein: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I have a mama three, three children. My husband and I adopted from Guatemala. So we had had kind of a long and twisty road to parenthood and ultimately landed in Guatemala. And we adopted three babies, not all at the same time. Two years apart, and then two years apart. And Dahlia was our middle child. And what happened was in terms of your question regarding the rare disease diagnosis, she, from a very young age, seemed to be developing a little bit differently and a little bit slower than I thought was probably developmentally appropriate. Let’s put it that way. So her speech was garbled. She was having balance issues. You know? I had that mother’s instinct and tried to get people to pay attention, doctors, early intervention. But, you know, I was told just give a time, she’ll catch up. And it wasn’t until she was four years old that I finally got the attention of a doctor who said let’s do a hearing test. And at that time, she was diagnosed with mild to moderate hearing loss. And that was a condition that would be able to be corrected by hearing aids. But there was a question which was why? Why did she have the hearing loss? Did something happen in utero? Did she have a virus early on? We brought her back to the Boston area from Guatemala at six months. So there were a lot of question marks. And we were sent for genetic testing, which really is a blessing because so many families have to fight for a really long time to get genetic testing. In this case, we got it very quickly, and that genetic testing led to a very clear diagnosis. Another thing that doesn’t always happen. And she was diagnosed at that time with a rare degenerative mitochondrial disease called MIRF syndrome, which stands for myochronic epilepsy, ragged red fibers. Again, she was five years old, and that diagnosis seemed like crazy to us. We couldn’t understand it, couldn’t wrap our heads around it. She, you know, while I had been concerned, never my wildest dreams? Did my concerns lead me to the possibility even of something that grave? And she was the same person she had been, you know, before the diagnosis. So it was very hard to understand. And and even technically, Nobody had heard of this illness. We didn’t know what mitochondria were. We didn’t understand what a degenerative disease meant. And so then we took off on a very lengthy journey that lasted until she was seventeen. Daria died one week after her seventeenth birthday.
Victoria Volk: Wow. And do children typically I mean, what is the life expectancy generally of this
Jessica Fein: Yeah, well, so to begin with MURF syndrome is extremely rare, it’s two in a million, so there’s not really much data to go on. Also, Dahlia had a secondary diagnosis later on, which made her one of six in the world. So the thing with a rare disease is you just don’t know. Now, when we look at MIRF syndrome, what we understand is that people can be impacted even within the same family in really different ways. So, for example, when I googled it that night, there was this long list of possible ways it could manifest. And it went everywhere from short stature all the way to death. So, you know, I did what any mom does, which is two things. Number one, I read the list and I decided it was a menu and I would choose, okay, she could be short. You know, I’ll take that one. I’ll take the hearing loss that I could deal with. But when it got to things like dementia and obviously truncated lifespan, those I wasn’t I wasn’t go anywhere near that. And I felt like, you know, look, I’m the mom. I’ll solve it. I’ll fix it. Right? Because that’s what we do. We think we can fix things. And that was a big transformation for me. One of the ones I cover my book, which is understanding that there are things we can’t in fact fix. What what do we do with a world that seems so wildly out of control? And how do we create any kind of meaning in that in that situation?
Victoria Volk: How did you do that?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, it was a long it was a long journey because like I said, I decided I was gonna it. And remember, I didn’t even know what mitochondria were. So, I mean, the idea that I would fix it was totally fantastical, but and I really did try to do everything I could and I became a big advocate and I looked for every study, and I wanted to, like, travel the world and look for some kind of, you know, miracle. But ultimately, what happened was Dahlia’s disease being degenerative, was getting more and more serious. When she was nine, we were in the hospital for three months. And at that point, she had a tracheotomy which meant she had a hole in her neck with a tube that she began to that she could breathe out of because she had lost the strength in her lungs to breathe and she was ventilator dependent and she had lost her ability to speak and to eat and to move it walk it all. Ultimately, she lost her ability to move it all. But at that point, she was just in a wheelchair, she could move her arms, and she could shake her head in point and things like that. So she became too weak to participate in any studies. And I had a choice at that point because here was Dahlia, who just wanted to be a kid. Like, she wanted to have fun and snuggle and read and bake even though she couldn’t need and live a life and have a childhood. And as the mom, it was my job to facilitate that. And I learned from her in that respect, and I decided that I could not cure this disease. I would do everything possible to try to make the symptoms less to try to understand the nuances of how she could feel better with everything she was dealing with, but also to understand that I had three kids who wanted to be kids?
Victoria Volk: I’m sitting here and I’m just thinking putting myself, trying attempting to put myself in your shoes. And as a mother parent, it’s so difficult to watch your children like you said, the grief of wanting to give them their childhood, them wanting to feel like a child.
Jessica Fein: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things that I mean, I know you did your own research and what did that look like? How did you do that? And what were some of the things that helped you advice that people gave? I mean, did you connect with other parents who Yeah. Paid full time caregivers and you know, of
Jessica Fein: Right. So and first of all, yes. We seeing your child suffer is unbearable. And let look. Yeah.
I have a seventeen year old. And yesterday, I got a text a very healthy mainstream seventeen year old. Okay? And so he was at school yesterday and something happened in one of the classes and a couple of the kids were mean to him. And he texted me. I mean, he was not even that upset about it, but I was, like, wait, are they being mean to you? And and he was, like, kind of. And I was, like, you know, totally devastated if my stuff occurred. And I was, like, you know, wanted to, like, run into the high school and be, like, stuff. You know? So so that’s how we are as parents. Right? So what do you do when you have, you know, this this very serious, serious, as serious as it gets situation? And, you know, I did not at the time connect with too many other people. I did become part of my do action, which is the mitochondrial disease advocacy and research education group. And I’m actually on the board of that, but I didn’t at the time connect with too many other parents. I have since my daughter died connected with way more people in the community, partly because of my own podcast, partly because of my writing, So I now know so many people and I do know what a lifeline other people going through it can be. And it doesn’t need to be people go, you know, it’s not going to be in my case, other people whose kids have MRF syndrome. It’s too rare. But it’s other people whose kids are medically complex or have rare diseases, who are child loss, who, you know, have intense special needs, all those things, parents whose lives look so dramatically different than what they had envisioned. But at the time I didn’t, and there were a few reasons. Number one, I didn’t have time. I was working full time. My daughter was an eyes on patient from age nine to seventeen, which meant she was home but our home was an ICU of sorts and myself or my husband or a nurse trained specifically in her care had to have our eyes on her twenty four seven. He was very intense and I became a highly skilled medical provider of her medical needs. I mean, it was intense. And so between working full time and then being a full time caregiver and then trying to create this childhood and this environment for my three kids and also writing a book at that time, I didn’t really have time to connect with many people in the community. So to your question of, what did I do? I first of all, so, so, so lucky to have a great partner and my husband. And that’s not always the case. I mean, you have single parents going through something like this, or you have parents who aren’t on the same page. And we know that more than fifty percent of couples who have a kid with special needs, let alone living on the precipitously, split up. So that that was a real blessing, you know. And for us, that we had each other. And I have some other, you know, really close friends. I couldn’t I didn’t see people very much, but people that I knew were there were my corner. And also my husband and I try to give each other some space to have some time to ourselves because that can so easily get lost in this situation. And I will say, because I know we’re talking about grief in general, that a couple of things along this journey, I did lose all of my family members in terms of my family of origin. And that is part of my story in my book, which is losing two sisters and three parents, which happened a lot in the way. And so I’m very reluctantly familiar with all kinds of grief. And it’s not just the grief of losing somebody, but it is other kinds of grief, what I call non hallmark kinds non hallmark card kinds of grief. Right? So ambiguous grief, for example, was something that I became very familiar with. I’m not sure if that’s something that you’ve talked about much on your show, but, you know, there there are so much loss that can even precede or surround or be separate from loss that comes from a death. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I I just talk about grief. Whether it’s I the labels might be helpful, you know, to understand it, but Yeah. As far as, like, healing and stuff like that, I don’t know that I yeah. It’s just all grief to me. Yeah.
Jessica Fein: But for me, it was a real eye opener because I didn’t under stamp that there were other kinds of grief. And I didn’t feel like it was appropriate at the time to be grieving when my daughter was here. It was in front of me. It was alive. And I really, for me, it was such an important thing to understand that there are other kinds of grief. And it is okay. And we can grieve a life we had imagined. And we can grieve a voice we’ll never hear again. And, you know, all of these other kinds of things. We can grieve for somebody who’s still alive. And for me, That was very helpful because once I understood that this was valid and that this was real and that this had a name, it took away some of the power and it allowed me to integrate that grief and to move forward more effectively.
Victoria Volk: So you lost three parents and your two sisters during that eight year span that you it was twenty four seven.
Jessica Fein: Well, my I lost I mean, my my first sister actually had died when she was thirty. So that and I was twenty seven. So that was the first major major loss. And then my mother and my father and my father-in-law died during that time as well as my older sister. That’s a lot. It’s a lot. And, you know, it wasn’t like they were all together. It wasn’t like everybody you know, sometimes when you think about a whole family dying, it’s like, though, they were all in a car. Mhmm. I’ll take that. It’s not like a hierarchy. It’s not better or worse
Victoria Volk: than ever.
Jessica Fein: But this was like one one offs. And it was also not like there was something that was running in the family. This was like just, you know, all all different kinds of things. So it it’s it’s pretty inconceivable. And yet, that’s what happened.
Victoria Volk: And yet, here you said,
Jessica Fein: And yet here I sit and it’s interesting because I know it sounds, it’s like when I’m telling my story to somebody who I’m just meeting, it it’s like I now I have written about it. I can speak about it. And it’s so much to take in. And I have two friends who are therapists who said to me, my goodness, if you were to come and just be telling me all this, I’d be like, oh, she’s I don’t even know there were some like a diagnosis of like that can’t possibly be true, that can’t possibly be with that because it seems so crazy and yet when you’re in something like this and underlying all of it is this intense care and intense situation and this life on the precipice, you you integrate it and and move forward. Like, there’s no time to be to lay in the fetal position. Like, there’s no time to be on the bathroom floor crying. Twenty four seven. You can’t. You cannot.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that tends to go to the wayside when the life life, like, just throws, you know, the shit our way, basically, is our self care and just caring for the self. And so how what did that look like for you amidst all of that?
Jessica Fein: Was I’m really glad you asked that because and I actually talked about this in the book. Working outside of the home was important to me, and I did get judged for it because there were people, even medical caregivers in our home, who felt that it wasn’t appropriate for me to continue working. And to be clear, I was the primary breadwinner and this life was expensive that we were living and nobody questioned my husband working. But I will say that when we talk about self care, Part of that to me was getting out of the house and working in a job that I knew how to do that I had been doing before I became a mother. That was very helpful for my identity. And that was also I think an important break during the day. Mhmm. And I think it was able to make me more present when I was home. So that was one thing. Another thing for self care for me was I’m I’m not like a big exerciser, but I did start to do pilates and just having this like twice a week that I would get out of the house and do this thing. Was also a nice break. And then also when we talk about self care, I think that the writing was important for me. You know, I wrote the book while at my daughter’s bedside. And I think that that was a really important outlet. And it allowed me to tell my story my way, which meant I was able to make some order out of the chaos. So I think those were things, oh, the other thing for self care is that my husband and I as much as we could did a date night until COVID hit, we really kept that up. And it was complicated because in order for us to go out together, we needed to have two people at home, a nurse and a babysitter because we have these two other kids and also the nurse was not a babysitter. She does not be hired to entertain. So we would need a team of two. Which first of all is an expensive proposition. But second of all, we needed to make sure that they got a lot. I mean, I remember we had this one nurse and babysitter and the babysitter was like part of our family. And afterwards, she was like, I was really uncomfortable with that nurse. You know what I mean? So that’s like a whole other dynamic. So it was complicated, but getting out of the house for about two hours on a Saturday night was such a sense of normalcy for us because our lives were so abnormal. So to be able to do that. And every night, every Saturday, we’d get in the car, and we’d look at each other, and we’d say, we’ve never needed a date more. And every Saturday night, it would be true, even more so than the week before, you know? And so So there were those things. I think it was having I think what all of these things did, whether it was the writing or the Pilates or the date night or whatever is my work. It gave me an identity separate from being the mom slash caregiver. And I think that’s important, you know, for anybody in any situation.
Victoria Volk: When you were describing you and your husband getting into the car and recognizing that you never needed to date night more, I physically, like,
Jessica Fein: I just had this That is what we would do. Literally, it was that huge exhale and the looking at each other. And I always you know, it didn’t even matter, like, if we were engaging on that date night or if we were just sitting there in if we had the one restaurant, it was close by, so we knew we weren’t, you know, we do what we were gonna do. We would go there. We still go there pretty much once a week. And, yeah, just to have that that ability to be outside of all the other roles that had become such an integrated part of our lives.
Victoria Volk: I think that’s a key point what you said is to put yourself in a different role. And in that moment, you too could be husband and wife.
Jessica Fein: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And connect.
Jessica Fein: Mhmm. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: And one thing too, like, people may be listening and something that comes up for me as I’m hearing you share is many people who experience a child that is a lot of care or what have you. They have that support system around them as in the parents. Sometimes even the grandparents move in to help support and care and you didn’t have that either.
Jessica Fein: We didn’t have that either. And I will say that That was another thing I was dealing with. So my eldest sister had lung cancer, and she was diagnosed in the middle of all this. And I was kind of her primary person, and it was insane. It was so out of the blue and that was a whole other ride. So I was really torn. I mean, we talk about the sandwich generation caring for our children and our elderly parents at the same time. This was like triple decker sandwich or something because I had the sibling thing too. And it was really hard and I did I did, you know, I think that what I was going through may just compounded, was compounded by the other losses and those became so much more present for me because I so wanted to be able to just like you know, cry to my mom and and, you know, be be parented. Right? And and when for a while, I was taking care of my parents. And then when they weren’t here, it was incredibly lonely.
Victoria Volk: And that brings me to the topic of friendships. I mean, you probably didn’t even have time for friendships, and maybe the friendships you had fell away because you know what happens too.
Jessica Fein: I will say, I’m very lucky that I have a circle of friends, people I’ve been friends with since I was a kid. And the reason I feel so fortunate about that is because I feel like meeting new friends when you’re going through such intense things. Is so hard. Right? Unless it’s people who are also going through intense things. But it’s too much to catch somebody up on. You know what I mean? It’s just like it’s a lot. So what we were going through was so unrelatable that people who knew me before, that became very, very important for me. Even knowing they were there, they weren’t in Boston, you know, they’re all over the place, but knowing that I had these people was important to me. And I think that we see in grief, right, how hard it is to maintain friendships because people are so awkward and they’re so uncomfortable, and they don’t know what to say. And God forbid, they bring up your kid’s name, which is all you really want to talk about. You know? But they just don’t know what to do, and this is such a problem is that we’re just, as a society, so uncomfortable. And it always blows my mind because I feel like grief is the single most universal thing.
Like, every single person is going to be a grieffer. And yet, we’re so awkward. We’re so weird about it, where it should be the great unifier.
Victoria Volk: That’s what I talk about. On the podcast, like, that’s what I talk about. It is the one thing that unites us all that none of us differ on. Like, we all like, we are all creepers.
Jessica Fein: We are all creepers. Every single week of us
Victoria Volk: at a
Jessica Fein: hundred percent, like, And and with all other life cycle events, we understand how to be there, how to show up, how to sit with somebody in all other life cycle things, and yet when it comes to the thing that is the loneliness. And the thing that is the most universal, we don’t know how to do it. We don’t know how to show up. We don’t know how to sit in the silence. Right?
Victoria Volk: And that brings me to the question of how were you taught as a child to grieve and express grief, and how was it what beliefs were passed down to you about grief in your household growing up?
Jessica Fein: You know, I don’t really remember too much from growing up. What I remember with every cell of my being is the sudden death of my sister when I was twenty seven and she was thirty. And she was my best friend and we had been on the phone this morning, that morning, excuse me, and she died suddenly that afternoon. And that changed my worldview, more than any other loss. Even more, I will say, than the loss of my child because by the time that I lost Dahlia, which everybody will say, the worst thing that can happen is losing a child. And I’m not saying what’s worse and not worse. I’m just saying that that first loss changed my worldview. Because before that, I saw the world through a bubble. Right? I was looking at a bubble every, you know? And that loss punctured the bubble. Then I saw the world through the clarity of the puncture, not through the hazy sheen of the bubble. Right? It changed everything for me. And I think that I probably then I was not living with my parents at the time, but I had them as models of how it is possible to carry on, which they both did. After losing their child. Right? And so it was forever altering for them. And they were absolutely different people on the other side of it and they carried on and they engaged in the world and they had lives, you know. And and I think that probably that somehow sunk in that it was possible to have an other side, to have, you know, life on the other side of what seems like, how can you continue on?
Victoria Volk: Is do you what’s your sister’s name? Both sisters.
Jessica Fein: Yes, my first sister and thank you for asking. Her name is Noomi and my other sister who died of lung cancer more recently is Rachel.
Victoria Volk: Do you speak about them in your book too?
Jessica Fein: Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, the book opens with the with the sudden death of my sister, Noomi. It’s not a big piece of it, but I couldn’t tell the story without starting with that because it was a life changing for me. And then Rachel’s a character in the book because that happened much more recently and so out of the blue. I mean, they were both out of the blue, but one was like totally out of the blue sudden and then of course lung cancer we know can happen you know, when you’re diagnosed with stage four lung cancer, often that means that you don’t have a boatload of time.
Victoria Volk: What were the lessons that you learned from the loss? Of the grief of your sister your first sister. Know me since that was the one that kinda cracked you open. Yeah. What are what are the things that Dahlia taught you about grief then too?
Jessica Fein: Oh, two very different answers and so important both of them. With know me, what I learned was I never would nor would I want to get over the loss of my sister. This is not something I was trying to put behind me. It was something I was trying to figure out how to bring forward in a healthy way with me because she is such a core part of who I am and it was very important that I mean, I I would never want to not be grieving for her. Like, I can’t even imagine that. So it was not how are you gonna get over it. It was how are you going to move along with it? And And that was, you know, a learning because I didn’t know much personally about grief before that. Dahlia, I learned everything. I mean, here was a kid who lost everything that a kid has. She couldn’t move at all. She couldn’t speak. She couldn’t eat. She couldn’t run. She couldn’t, you know, she couldn’t do all of these things.
And she did not become bitter, angry. You know, all the things that I think I would become. She wanted to continue to have have joy. And and not in a, like, kind of denial kind of way, but in a like, this is my life. Like, I want to be out there. I want to be experiencing it. So so watching her do that made me realize that joy and sorrow can live side by side. They can hold hands. You can have grief and you can have beauty. And all of these things that I would have thought were mutually exclusive, fear and anguish and anxiety and, you know, moving or all the things. And then on the other side, you know, joy and fun and meaning and all these things like they can all be intertwined. And in fact, I think they become stronger in the presence of the other.
Victoria Volk: I’m just trying to imagine how, like, did you compartmentalize, like, when you would come into the room and, like, just I mean, because you essentially have to, in some respect, like, set your your stuff aside, right, to fully be present with her
Jessica Fein: Okay. I think I’m the queen of compartmentalization. I think I’m like, I don’t even know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing or whatever, but I do think it’s key to for me to being able to function because, you know, here, the the situation was too big to take it all in at any time. It would have blown us down. We couldn’t do that. I compare it to a pointalism, you know, the the kind of art where when you’re standing up close, you just see the the dots. And you have to back up to be able to tell that it’s, you know, a canoe or a field or whatever it is in the picture. We couldn’t back up. We couldn’t take in the big picture. It was too big. We had to be real up close and understand what each point was and and be attending to each point. And it wasn’t until after Dahlia passed away that I felt that I could back up and begin to take in the enormity.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that I had a previous guest on, she is the author of always a sibling.
Jessica Fein: Yes. Andy Orangestein.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Have you read the book?
Jessica Fein: No. But I have it, and I’m about to speak, I I have an upcoming thing where we’re gonna be together,
Victoria Volk: and she’s coming on my show. So Awesome. Yeah. She is wonderful. And one thing that I didn’t really think about until reading her book was that and she came on my podcast, was that our siblings are the people that know us the best who they’re the longest relationships that we have. And so for you when you shared about Nomi and how that grief was harder, in some respect.
Jessica Fein: That’s right because I have never been a day on this earth without her. Mhmm. Twenty seven years she was by myself. For, you know, the second that I came into the world, she was, like, celebrating me. And we, you know, they’re they’re that connection.
There’s nothing like it. And I remember at the time and I will say, she had been married for five years when she died and she had been with her husband three years before that. K? So I remember so vividly thinking even right then, his goal will be ultimately to move on. Right?
His goal is going to be you know, here’s a young guy and they had a baby. And ultimately, I mean, he’d always remember her, but this would end up being an eight year chapter of his life. And his goal would be to move on. And I say that with all the love in the world for him, but that that was the situation. Whereas my goal was to hold on, I’d never wanted to let her go. And, yeah, I mean, a sibling relationship, I think it’s interesting that that, you know, Annie said that and and I understand it because you it is the longest relationship that they know you in a way nobody else will ever know. When you have a good, healthy, great, and in my case, when you have a sibling who’s your best friend. And also like she shared too, they fill the gaps of your childhood. Like, totally. There’s they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And that’s why, you know, earlier when we were talking about my friendship circle, I’ve got some friends that I’ve had since, like, eight years old. And so I think they now have stepped into that role, and they know all the players you know, and they’ll remind me. Remember when your mom, you know, because we all grew up together. And that’s why those friendships are so important. I mean, you know, for other reasons too, but but right?
They are the the safekeepers of your history.
Victoria Volk: That’s so true. Like, I have friendships since I was in five kindergarten. Like, we’re still close and I cherish those. Yeah. For sure. What is the one thing that you would say to parents who and I know we kind of alluded to it or kinda started this podcast talking about how you have three children. But so many parents I know we’re jumping around here a lot because you’ve had, you know, such a variety of losses, but when parents seem to struggle with the question who have lost a child, how many children do you have? And, you know, I
Jessica Fein: was like, well, do I say, do I even get into it if I had a child lost? Like, you know, if I have my kids with me and there’s there’s four, but I actually have five. And do I say I have five? Or where’s the fifth one? You know? Like, how how do you navigate that? Yeah. So what I would say is to every parent, It is entirely up to you at any given moment. How you want to answer that question? If you are in a place where you don’t feel that the person asking it is a safe place or if you’re with other people or if you just don’t want to get into it, say what you want. Say to if you’ve lost your third. That’s fine. You don’t have to feel guilty about that. This is up to you and it is how you are going to feel best and safest. I will say I am the mother of three. I believe I will always be the mother of three. I often think about it with somebody who had one child and lost one child, but But the inevitable next question always is how old are they? And then what happens is you find yourself apologizing to the person, listen, I’m sorry, this is gonna be really hard for you. Right? But I got because you know you’re about to make them so uncomfortable, So it is a total minefield as is so much else.
The question, how are you? Is a total minefield? Right? Like, what am I supposed to If I’m feeling okay in that moment and I say, oh, you know, things are good, then you feel totally guilty. Like, how could I answer the question that way? Mhmm. Right? And I mean, there’s so much we just there’s so much we make ourselves feel bad about, and we don’t need to do that. We need to do what’s gonna be in that moment. And you can run into two people in the grocery store and feel like you wanna answer that question two different ways.
It’s okay. It’s up to you. You know? I will find myself I I I for me, I just can’t imagine saying, I’m a mom of two. I can’t. Dahlia is such a huge part of who I am, you know? Just like it’s very, very hard for me when people say, oh, do you have siblings?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Exactly. I was just I was thinking that too. It’s it’s kinda nice sort of thing.
Jessica Fein: Yeah. I always will have to I mean, I’m always I’m the youngest of three.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, that actually brings up another question because I didn’t assume you had more siblings, but I thought maybe there was a chance you had more siblings and I didn’t ask. And now you’re in now it’s I
Jessica Fein: am orphaned. Yes. Yes. I know. And when my eldest sister was diagnosed, we had lost our parents and our other sister. And she said to me, I’m gonna be okay because no god would ever do that to you. And that’s what she believed. It would be There’s no way that reality that is my reality now that that could happen. And I suppose as I get older, it will be less shocking because it’ll be more in the natural order of things. But I’m nowhere near the age yet when one would expect that, you know,
Victoria Volk: That just made me well up. Yeah. I know on your website, you talk about you mentioned the personal survival kit, and you’ve talked about I think you have alluded to Grace the grace you give yourself, the grace you give others. But what does hope and humor and grit look like for you in your healing?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, hope, I’m I’m a big believer in hope. And I think what we hope for changes all the time, for a while I hoped for a cure, and then that wasn’t going to happen. Then I hoped she wasn’t in pain, or I hoped we’d be able to have a successful outing that afternoon or I hope, you know, but but the idea of living without hope is not compelling to me. And I think that we get to choose if we want to be hopeful about things.
And we get to choose what we want to be hopeful about. As for humor, I think you can always find humor. I mean, as long as you’re willing to open yourself up to dark humor, there’s there’s humor. I mean, life is ridiculously humorous and, you know, ridiculously punishing and all the other things. But but I I feel like humor is important too. And and in my writing, I mean, that is probably one of the things I hear most often is, oh my god, I did not expect your book to be funny. You know, people will say, I expected to cry, I didn’t expect to laugh this much. So, you know, fair, fair, you know, warning or promise to anybody who’s gonna pick it up, hopefully, you will feel an array of things when you read the book. You gotta have grit to carry through. I mean, you have to be able to pull on the the the rain boots and get on, put yourself in the muck every day. And that to me was the grit. It was getting up and doing it again day after day after day.
Victoria Volk: And I would also want to ask because I I did think of another question. I’ll circle back to that. But were there any books that you because you had books on your thing too and you’re a avid reader and you’re a writer. So are there any books that you would recommend that you found most supportive to you as you were going through all of this?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, I’m a huge reader and I would say that for me. And, you know, when you talked about self care earlier on, I didn’t mention, but reading for me. And and at the time, in particular, I just wanted to read fiction. Anything that’s gonna take me out of my situation. So I would say that for me. And then in the book, I do talk about three other books. One is or or three other authors who meant a lot to me. One was James Baldwin, who whose life situation couldn’t have been more different from mine, but wrote so much about people meeting tragedy and standing up to tragedy rather than letting it blow them down, and that was very important to me. Also Mary Oliver is an amazing poet, and her work just really, really was was very important to me. And then my father was a writer in reading his his words and understanding what he had to say about loss, having he had written a book about the loss of my sister. So that was very important to me as well. Yeah. It was and and I quote him quite a bit in my book.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. You also have on their cores cores corners of beauty? What is that? Yeah.
Jessica Fein: And that’s a big part of my book as well, which is this idea that I’m talking about a letter that I received from my father. I he had left me some letters to read after he died. And we talk about creating a world of beauty and where that’s like a really tall order. And none of us really can do that effectively. We’re not that powerful, but we can create corners of beauty. That’s something that’s within each of our control. And that can be how you respond to somebody you see out in the world who maybe needs a hand. That can be how you make something out of a lousy situation, a horrible situation that can be having a candle light dinner in your daughter’s room next to the beeping monitors. You’ve created a little corner of beauty. So corners of beauty is something that I think is in all of our control.
Victoria Volk: That that’s juicy. That is really juicy. I think there’s something there for you to really dig into and elaborate on if you haven’t already. I’ve I’m not assuming you haven’t, but if you haven’t, like that that’s very intriguing to me. That’s I love that.
Thank you for
Jessica Fein: Thank you. Alright. So maybe that’s book maybe that’s the follow-up.
Victoria Volk: And also writing it down. And of course, because you had that on your website as well, writing it down, and writing was very much therapeutic for you. It sounds like at the bedside of your daughter. And Yeah. And having that emulated for you too by your father, I bet that was such a gift.
Jessica Fein: It really it really was. And, you know, one of the things that I learned from it was that his book was not a book about my sister, but he handed me the manuscript. He said he wrote a book about Noomi and I read it, and I said, this isn’t a book about Noomi. This is about your know me. If I were to write a book about know me, it would be a totally different book. And that was really important to me. I’m sure if my husband were to write a book about what we went through, it would be a totally different book. Right? I mean, people are so different for each of us. And even the very same loss or the same situation, you know, two parents of the same kid or two siblings of the third sibling. It’s a different loss.
Victoria Volk: Because all relationships are unique. Exactly. And so how can I ask this is my last question and because I you brought it up and I I actually wrote it down? Husband grief. Like, how Yeah.
Jessica Fein: He it’s totally different. I mean, he would never in a thousand a million years have a conversation like we’re having. Right? I find it I would talk about this all day long because for me, it’s an opportunity to bring my family, my losses forward, to have them be present, to tell their stories, to allow people to get to know them, So it’s very, very important for me. And I am so grateful for the opportunity to to do that. My husband is much more private, so he’s very supportive of me doing what I want to need to do, but think he doesn’t even like to come to my book reading. He still likes it in the background and maybe, you know, so he can sneak out if he needs to because he’s a much more internal private person. And I think that that’s, you know, we need to be able to respect that we’re all gonna go through it in our own way. And there’s no wrong way. And there’s no timeline. That’s a big thing. I see a lot of people. I see a lot of people out there who say, well, jeez, it’s been x number of to, you know, why isn’t that a person over it yet? And it’s like, no. No. That’s really why
Victoria Volk: I started this podcast was to, you know, banish the misinformation and the myths of grief and all these things that were taught like time heels and grief alone and replace the loss and, you know, these behaviors that we find ourselves doing to bypass our feelings and not feel them. Right? And to feel better in that period of time. And so, you know, what may have destroyed another couple sounds like it really just brought you two together and allowed you each to honor each other the losses and the way that you found helpful for you as individuals, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. Is there anything that you would like to share that you don’t feel you’ve got too that you feel is important?
Jessica Fein: No. I think that this this covered it. And you know, I love, as I’ve mentioned, connecting with people on these topics, and I invite people to connect me on social or well, first, please check out the book. You know, wherever you get your books. Whether that’s Amazon or BookShop dot org, Barnes and Noble, breathtaking. And, you know, I’m having some really interesting conversations with book groups who are reading it together, and I’ll go to any book group I’ll zoom in or whatever if if people choose to read it with with some friends. And then, you know, yeah, my website is where I keep up to date on everything in terms of, you know, other writing I’m doing, events that are happening. So, yeah, you can check that out at jessica find stories dot com and that’s fine at the EIN because post people hear it and think it’s the other way. So just the fine stories dot com.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And we say fine and grief recovery. We say fine as feelings inside not expressed and that is not you.
Jessica Fein: So That is that’s alright. That’s very funny.
Victoria Volk: I look forward to checking out myself. I love me some dark humor. So thank you so much for being my guest. I will put all of the links in the show notes and thank you for sharing your warrior story. Really? It’s a warrior through grief. And, you know, we all don’t have to do some grand things with our grief and share it with the world. But if you can connect with other people, like, and create those corners of beauty like you shared, That’s healing. So thank you for sharing your story because storytelling is healing too. Storytelling is healing.
Jessica Fein: And I also, you know, I didn’t mention I do a column in psychology today called grace and grief. You can find that online. I write a lot about not only our own individual grief, but how you can support others in their grief. So if people wanna check that out. Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
I’m excited to share this episode with Amanda Popovski, in which we discuss everything related to being an empath or highly sensitive person (HSP).
I could feel the energy behind the words Amanda used in her application, and the synergy I felt with her was one of being a kindred spirit. Sometimes, there are people in this world you click with, and it was refreshing not only to be and feel seen by Amanda but, more importantly, I hope she felt seen by me as well.
This episode is a masterclass of sorts for empaths (HSPs). We discuss everything from personal growth and evolution as an empath (HSP), the energetics of what it means to be an empath (HSP), how it shows up in our lives, the challenges we face as empaths (HSPs) in a world that isn’t exactly fully accepting of us deeply feeling and emotional beings, and how we can leverage this energy as our superpower.
From childhood experiences as an empath (HSP), leaving corporate (against her family’s wishes), people-pleasing, entrepreneurship, dating, friendships, and everything in between, I hope you feel seen in this episode, if you find, like myself and Amanda, where being an empath (HSP) has just seemed to feel like a cruel curse at times.
This is a love note from Amanda and me to all empaths and HSPs.
Dear fellow empaths/HSPs,
You are a powerful and necessary force that is deeply needed in the fabric of humanity. 💛
RESOURCES:
CONTACT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Your Sensitivity and Setting Boundaries with Amanda Popovskiy
In a recent episode of the podcast “Grieving Voices,” hosted by Victoria had an insightful conversation with Amanda Popovskiy, a life and business coach for women. Both highly sensitive people (HSPs) and empaths, they delved into topics that resonate deeply with many individuals who share these traits. This blog post will expand on their discussion, offering additional context, insights, and practical applications.
Understanding High Sensitivity
The Journey of Self-Acceptance
Amanda shared her journey from pursuing a degree in Spanish to founding her digital marketing agency and eventually becoming a life coach. Her path was marked by personal challenges related to being an HSP and empath. These traits often made her feel overwhelmed but also endowed her with deep empathy—a double-edged sword she has learned to wield effectively.
Example: Imagine feeling every emotion around you intensely—joy becomes exhilarating but sadness can be paralyzing. For HSPs like Amanda, everyday interactions can sometimes lead to emotional overload.
Childhood Experiences
Both Amanda and Victoria recounted their childhood experiences as highly sensitive individuals. They often felt different from their peers—Amanda described herself as an “old soul” who found solace in introspective activities like reading.
Insight: Many HSPs may have similar experiences where they feel more mature or emotionally aware than those around them during childhood. Recognizing this early on can help parents support their sensitive children better.
Reframing Sensitivity as Strength
From Curse to Superpower
Initially perceived as burdensome, sensitivity was reframed by both speakers over time through setting boundaries and self-acceptance. They recognized it not just as something to manage but also as a strength that allows deeper connections with others.
Practical Application: Start viewing your sensitivity not merely as something negative but acknowledge its positive aspects too—such as heightened empathy which enables you to understand others profoundly.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Grieving Voices, which I am highly excited about because I’m a highly sensitive person and my guest who is joining me is also a highly sensitive person in Empath. If I could find her bio. I will read it for you here in two shakes of a lamb’s tail. Let’s go. Alright. So Amanda, oh, I even practice this. Amanda Popovski.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Popovski. You got it. Popovski.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Popovski. You gotta say it like, Popovski. Yeah. Alright. It’s Macedonian,
Amanda Popovski: so it’s very, like, very like Eastern European, a lot of conviction.
Victoria Volk: Popovski. You got it. Alright. So now that we’ve got her name straight, she is a life and business coach for women. And through her action awakening process, she’s helped dozens of women go from overwhelmed and overthinking to taking great action and creating discipline that works, so they can grow their business and shine. Going from a Spanish degree to forming her own digital marketing agency to combining the corporate climbing the corporate ladder and finally taking the leap into her coaching business, Amanda has had her fair share of life transitions and has grieved her past self in each and every one of them. She’s here today to share more about the sensitive side of coaching and personal development as a highly sensitive person and path an overall emotional creature. Based in Buffalo, New York, Land of the Chicken Wing, she enjoys cuddling up with a good book, meditating and trying new recipes in her free time. And thank you so much for bringing your energy and your story to the podcast today. I as we briefly shared with each other before we started recording, I’m excited to have you on because there’s a lot of impasse and highly sensitive people that listen to this podcast because I am one and I speak to that. I have content on my website that is about that. And doing energy healing work, that’s a lot of the clients that come to me are also highly sensitive themselves. And so I’m really excited to start there in your story because I know how shitty my childhood was and the grief that came with it just being a highly sensitive empathic person, there are so many pictures of me. And I don’t have a lot. Like, all of my childhood pictures fit in a sandwich ziplock bag and if not like like this thick of a snack. And so there isn’t a lot of pictures of me, but the ones there are, there’s a lot of me sleeping. Random times of day, like, middle of the day, missing birthday parties because I’m fully clothed with my shoes on. I fell asleep on my bed and missed the birthday party. And, you know, so I’m curious to start there with your story and how what your childhood was like, being an empath and highly sensitive person.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, obviously, thank you so much for having me on. I’m really really excited to talk to you and to hopefully share some wisdom that I’ve gained in this process for your HSPs and your empaths. My childhood, it’s funny I work with my inner child a lot, but I don’t really reflect on my childhood too often. And I’ve noticed with other highly sensitive people that sometimes we just can’t remember. Like, there’s maybe some emotional overload or something that we’re just like, oh, yeah, my childhood is good and then move on to present day, at least that’s how I operate. But I very distinctly remember feeling super different from a young age, like deep down knowing that I was different and not really knowing what to do with that information. Like, I can distinctly remember being in student council and drama club and, like, doing all the things in high school. And even though I felt like I had a group of friends and I felt like I belonged somewhere, I still felt like I did not belong. Like I was this old soul, this indigo child, this person that was just really doing a lot of observing, and picking up on things, I remember I do remember kind of a super cool trick that empaths have is to be able to read between the lines and understand what people are saying without saying it. So my parents would be like in an argument or whatever, passive aggressive at each other. And in my head, I was like, it’s so obvious. Dad wants this and mom wants this. Why are they telling each other? And, you know, it wasn’t until recently that I started to use my throat chakra and actually start to speak out loud about these feelings and sensations that I had. And that’s kind of what coincided with the whole, like, food thing that we’re gonna hopefully talk about PMD, all of that. So I would say that my experience was lonely. It was I found a lot of solace in myself I found a lot of solace in my books. I found a lot of solace like rolling these huge ideas around in my head that no child probably should ever have to think about or want to think about. About the state of the world and why things are the way that they are. And for a long time, I saw my empathy as, like, this burden. Like I would speak to the universe very often, especially in my early twenties, and be like shouting at the moon, like why did you make me this way? I can’t stand it. Why can’t I just be normal? Why do I have to be different? Now luckily, I and you, I’m sure, have come to embrace the superpowers that empathy and high sensitivity gives you, but only with the introduction of very strong boundaries.
Victoria Volk: You I thought you were gonna use use the word that I use, like empathy, like, you know, highly sensitive person empathic is a curse because I felt like it was a curse for me.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How so?
Victoria Volk: It’s like, why do I have to feel things so deeply all the time? And it makes people perceive you as neurotic. Like, people would feel like people would, like, Why are you so sensitive and just get over it? And why do you read into things? It’s like reading between the lines, but it’s like, it’s No. This Like, I know now. I’m not reading into things. I’m reading between the lines. On connecting dots that you’re not seeing. And but it comes off to other people as not insightful. No. We don’t come off as insightful. And wise, So, yeah, it was definitely a curse. And and it was like, you know, why do I have to be this way? So I I yeah.
Like, kindred spirits. Yes.
Amanda Popovski: Alright. I super resonating with that actually, especially with PMDD, which is the experience it’s called premenstrual, dysmorpheric disorder, and it’s basically PMS on steroids, where the week before your period you just feel like a completely different person. Like, I’m, you know, I’m a bubbly person. I’m a happy person. But on the inside, it’s a little bit of torture. And so I can really relate to feeling super emotional all the time and having people not really understand and even in my relationships. Currently, sometimes it feels difficult to be like, how are you not experiencing all of the things that I’m experiencing? And what I love about what you said is that we’re reading between the lines, yes, but we’re reading the energy, really. Mhmm. It’s what we’re reading. And that’s the stuff that most people think is between the lines or can’t really perceive. But we have this beautiful gift of being able to read and interpret a language that is really the whole creative spirit of the universe. It’s really cool. It’s a blessing. I think after all this time. I think
Victoria Volk: Yeah. In hindsight. Yeah. Yeah. You can talk about after we’ve implemented boundaries. Right? Which we will get to. But I just wanna share just because it’s at the forefront of my mind when you talked about PMDD because I haven’t been personally diagnosed with that, but just how you described it, like, oh, yeah, maybe that’s been my issue. And because I would just turn into this like, oh, anger, snappy, brain fog, like, all these things, but I’m gonna share something with you because I’m, like, in the perimenopause and that then that just adds another layer to things. Right? But I was listening to a podcast with Dr. Stacy Sims on Huberman Lab and it’s an excellent episode on Perry Menopause and Menopause, Women in Health, and Fitness, and all of that. And one thing that she suggested or shared with listeners was a supplement called DIM, d I m, two hundred milligrams a day. And I thought, you know what, what the heck? I’ll try it. It’s especially helpful for women who are estrogen dominant. And I I have been on this now. I have not shared publicly in my newsletter, which I plan to this next newsletter because I want to give it a full month. I’ve been on it a full month. And they are legitly a game changer. Have been for me? Yes. It’s like And it’s literally like a crap ton of broccoli and cauliflower in a little pill. It’s unrealistic. It’s natural, but it helps your body excrete excess estrogen. And I tell you what, I’ve been more productive in this past month than I have in several months and my mood Definitely. My mood, they are my happy pills. I’m legitimately there. My happy pills. This is not a sponsorship episode. This is not an affiliation or anything. I’m legitimately sharing what is been the biggest game changer for me. I am ever so grateful for her for sharing that. I’ve shared it with my friends. People that I’m, you know, know and love who, you know, what it’s that it’s working for me. And it’s definitely really helped me. And, you know, this is after, like, going through a cycle now and another yeah. So it’s been a full month. And I’m hooked. I’m hooked. So
Amanda Popovski: any little bit helps, I think. Yeah. But it’s simply that it’s natural. That’s so beautiful.
Victoria Volk: I know. I know. Yeah. So anyway, not to derail what you were talking about. But yes, it’s like all these different layers of of And then you get to that period, menopause, menopause, and it’s like, as a highly sensitive person, buckle up.
Amanda Popovski: So I’ve heard.
Victoria Volk: So I Yeah. So how did, like, now as an adult, like, how what did how did the boundaries come about for you then? And how did that then shift dynamics and relationships? Because I know what implementing boundaries did to some of my relationships, which it can friends just really kind of fade in the background when you when you start to, you know, use your throat chakra. Right? And speaking up and using your voice for the first time often because as empaths and highly sensitive people we’re often taken advantage of, you know, our emotionally responsive energies can, you know, people not everybody can sit with people in their deepest pain. And so we are very good at that, but it can also be very draining on us if we’re not looking at our own energy and managing our own energy. And energy healing work has been huge for me in that regard as well as boundaries. So what did that look like for you?
Amanda Popovski: Well, the first thing that came to my mind while you were talking about this is that as empaths, we are chameleons. So we if if anybody is not an empath, basically what it means is that what the other person is feeling, you viscerally feeling your body. It’s like It’s like they’re kind of their energy overtakes your energy. You’re kind of thinking what they’re thinking. You’re feeling what they’re feeling. And in hindsight, I think the power of us is not to be chameleons. But to be like a gazelle, like something beautiful that’s sitting there peacefully listening, but then goes around and treats us around really beautifully and like sends their sparkle of everywhere. So my chameleoning really came to an end or was highly influenced by the first self help book I ever read, which was you are a badass by Gencicero, and it actually kick started my entire coaching career and everything that I would go on to do. But something in me clicked and I realized that I had a purpose that was so much greater than like a ninth five or a box or something. And I was like, yeah, I’m made for more and that’s really important to me and I need to figure out what the heck that more is in my lifetime. So I started the self development journey as I’m sure many of your people are on. And I had always heard the word boundaries. They sounded kind of harsh to me. They sounded like something that only highly aggressive or action take any people would set. I was like, I don’t need to set boundaries, whatever. But I noticed that the more that I tuned into the fact that I was an energetic channel and that sometimes that energy did not make me feel good. I was like, no. No. No. I I can’t be a part of that because I have a big purpose. So it was less about Over time, it has become less about hurting other people’s feelings and more seeing boundaries as a sign of self respect and reflecting on the fact that boundary people, resourced people in my life are some of the coolest people that I look up to so much. And recognizing that when they set a boundary with me, I feel safe. And when I set a boundary with someone else as difficult as it is, I feel safe too. So it’s funny you bring up friends because I remember the first major friend breakup I had was so painful for me. It was so hard. I leaned into the self development books. I was like, okay. Yeah. This person is an energy vampire. I gotta get him out, blah blah blah. But then to sit down and have that conversation, again, it’s like that person’s energy overtakes your body. And so What I had to learn to do really was follow my intuition very deeply. And if my intuition, that little voice in the back of my head was still like, you gotta let her go, then I would follow through on that and trust that I was held in that decision. Trying to think of the first time that I set a boundary and what that might have been or felt like. Yeah. The first time I set a boundary was actually breaking up with my boyfriend very shortly after I read that self development book. And on paper, he was perfect. Our relationship was perfect, but I remember feeling energetically in my body, like, this isn’t right. I don’t think I wanna be with him. I don’t think I’m going to marry him long term. And so I’ve noticed that once I’ve set those boundaries with people and with things in my life like food, social media, all of these things, I’m a better person which makes the people that stick around so much better because my energy is so golden and nourishing, like you said, to the people around me. In order for me to be the best Amanda for me and for others, I need to have some really strong energetic containers around me so that I don’t fizzle out because especially if any of your listeners or you know about work burnout or corporate burnout, it is the worst feeling. And once you experience it, then you’re like, oh, god. I gotta set some boundaries. But don’t really know how. And so I have this like micro action awakening process. Do you mind if I share it with your listeners?
Victoria Volk: Absolutely. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay.
Amanda Popovski: Cool. So this is really great for empaths because it’s a micro action awakening process. So when you’re looking to take a brave action in the moment, which in this case is setting a boundary. So do you have an example of Victoria of, like, a boundary that your listener might want to set with someone?
Victoria Volk: When others are not seeing you in your in your glory, when they’re seeing the you that you used to be. So as you’re evolutionizing yourself, as your evolving in your own growth. And the people around you are not growing themselves and you go into that environment.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, okay. Before I share this process, I need to share some quick backstory on this because like I said, I started life coaching. I don’t know if I mentioned, but I was in college. And I was a straight a four point o student and I decided to drop out. And my family did not see that coming. They did not appreciate my ambition. They thought that I was making a huge mistake, and they did not hold back from expressing their opinions on that. And one family member in particular said that I was crazy and that I should go to a mental hospital if I was really considering this decision. And I believed them, I believed them for a really long time because I was super young and I wasn’t established in my boundaries yet. And so I shifted away from coaching, like you mentioned, went to digital marketing, corporate always danced around this idea of helping people, but it wasn’t until I really confronted and faced. Those family members and said, you know what? This is my purpose. This is what I want to do. I know I believe you when you say that you think I’m crazy. I totally believe that you think that. But I don’t and I like my decisions. I like the choices that I’m making. It’s not because I’m crazy. It’s just because I’m first in my community to do that, which is a concept from Jamie Curran Lima and her book worthy. So I have so many good things to say about this, especially when it comes to close family members, about them not seeing you in your glory, seeing you still as a young woman maybe, still seeing you as their daughter, as their sister, as their niece, and feeling like they have the right to protect you and make you feel safe by sharing and smudging their fears all over you. So to this person who is stepping into their glory and their purpose that is so deeply needed on this planet. This micro action awakening process will hopefully be really helpful for you to set a boundary of I’m I’m imagining that someone is starting to say to you, but that’s not and then the brave action is for you to set a boundary vocally. The cool thing about the throat chakra is that it’s the connector between your head, chakras, and your body chakras. So like your mind may be racing, but your body knows exactly what to say, and it’s just got to bubble up from your throat. So the first step is you’re in this conversation with this person and they start running their mouth in ways that are not helpful to you. What I want you to do is take a deep breath. Okay? And what that does is not only does it ground you in the moment, but it also interrupts any neural pathway that is going in your brain that says, I shouldn’t talk back to them. Right? It’s just interrupting that pattern. And even if you do that for a week, you’re starting to interrupt that neural pattern and eventually you’ll be able to crack it and introduce something else in its place. So when we are in these moments and feeling really nervous, take a deep breath. And what I want you to do is think about your future self and or the version of you that is fully living in the story. You could consider that. You can consider your higher self if you’re a bit more woo like me. Or you can just think of somebody that’s really brave and bound read and someone that you wanna be like. And just consider what they would do in this situation. That’s not only going to break the neural pathway even further, but it’s going to connect you to a positive and long term person. Because so often we don’t speak our minds because we’re afraid of the short term discomfort, but discomfort in any emotion it never killed you. And it’s so much more important for you to speak your mind for that long term version. Than it is for you to continue to sit in wrong energy. So okay. We’ve taken a breath. We’ve thought about the most badass, sparkliest version of ourselves. And what they would do in this situation? And then we count down from five. And this is a Mel Robbins tactic. It’s five four three two one. Right? And then we do the thing. We take the brave action, we say the boundary. And The last part of this process is that when you take the brave action, I’m sure a lot of your folks are people pleasers, maybe perfectionistic to a fault. We want to do a b minus brave action rather than waiting for an a plus. So even if you stutter your words and you’re like, wait. Wait. Stop. Stop. Stop. You know? And if you think you sound like a child or whatever, whatever dynamic this person is with you, that’s going to come up and you’re going to feel your palm shaking and you’re going to feel your feet tingling and sweating. But if someone is not supporting you in your glorious purpose, and you continue to allow their opinion to influence you. You’re choosing other people and their opinions over your purpose. And that’s not good for anyone. And again, discomfort, it sucks, but it’s never gonna kill you. So basically, take a deep breath, consider this future version of yourself, push through the short term discomfort, and take the action of setting that boundary. So that you can at least start to feel free in yourself and help the people that you’re really meant to help in this lifetime.
Victoria Volk: To piggyback that, I think it’s important to be to have emotional honesty in whatever it is you articulate to, not not twist it in a way that the other person maybe you think needs to hear it or how do I wanna say that? Just what’s true for you, not what you think the other person needs you to say or, you know, don’t mince the words. Say, be impeccable with your word, basically? Yeah. Four agreements? Yeah. Four agreements.
Amanda Popovski: And to piggyback off of your piggyback so now we’re piggybacking out. A book that I think will be super helpful when it comes to boundaries is the book of boundaries by Melissa Urban, and she’s the founder of Whole30, but she’s also a rollicking badass. And she makes boundaries so accessible. She provides concrete examples of things you can say. One of the best things that I learned from that book is to be clear but kind or to be No. No. Clear is kind. Clear is kind. So if you’re hopping around your emotional truth like you said, that’s not kind to them or to you. And so as long as you are super clear, you are going to feel a lot better about that situation than if you were just kinda like, you know, that wavering kind of emotionality.
Victoria Volk: So it’s called book of boundaries?
Amanda Popovski: A book of Boundaries. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: There’s another book. The one that I read was called Boundaries. Oh. And two two male doctors. That covers a whole lot of scenarios too.
So if you want, whether a feminine spin or the male version. There’s two books there that we each of us recommend. I have not read the book of boundaries, but I I have a feeling the show notes are gonna be a lot of recommendations there. No. I know. Which is great. This is, like, you know, this is, like, a personal development development self help master class. And now it’s highly sensitive people. So go us.
Amanda Popovski: I have a question for you, Victoria. As an ex as as a highly sensitive person person as an empath. Why do you think like, I can picture a lot of people listening to this and being like, yeah, yeah boundaries are fine. But why do you think that they’re really important Like, how are they life changing to people like us?
Victoria Volk: If they are aligned with your values, they are your guidepost. For navigating life. As long as you’re clear on what your values are, which may or may not be reciprocal. Right? Because values can be internal. Like, I value growth. But I don’t expect other people to value growth. Right? But if I value honesty, I expect honesty from others. I expect honesty to be reciprocal. And so if someone is not being honest with me, there’s my boundary. Right? So I think our values inform our boundaries. So if you can get clear on your values, you know exactly where your boundaries are missing. And if you get confronted with a boundary from someone else that feels activating within you, there’s something there for you to look at within yourself. I had once someone just a simple this was a really clear example of a boundary. It was it gets explicitly outlined in her email message responder. I do not reply to messages between blah blah blah whatever it was. And I thought, wow. And and she had, like, this way to articulate it in the message too, like, I respect my inbox. You know, you don’t need permission to respect your own, but it’s someone who’s setting an example of what a boundary, a healthy boundary looks like. Right? And I thought, oh, that’s really awesome. I love that. You know?
And so when we get confronted with the other people’s boundaries, sometimes we wouldn’t know a boundary if it slapped us in the face. But if as an empath or highly sensitive person, you can feel yourself energetically responding to that. It can help shape and mold your own. Right? And by looking at at yourself and self reflection and all of that. So they’re so important just for navigating life, I think.
Amanda Popovski: I completely agree with that. And to take a bit of a more woo spin because that’s just my whole thing. I think when I often say that when we’re procrastinating or overthinking or whatever, and we don’t take the brave action in our life or business. It’s you’re you’re not just hurting your productivity, you’re actively tearing at yourself relationship. You’re disappointing yourself again and again. And so when you don’t set boundaries, you’re not protecting yourself, and that indicates to me that your perception of your own value is extremely low. And that’s really sad if the majority of the world feels that their own value is not even worth speaking up about or not even worth protecting because your energy, when you’re an empath, naturally unbounded in a bad way is bleeding out all over the place. You’re everywhere. You’re feeling everything. You’re inheriting and inhaling the vibrations of everything around you, especially in crowds. My God. I don’t know about you, but I’m like, crowd phobic. I can’t do it. I’m a homebody for sure. But if I’m sacrificing my own value and values for someone else, I’m telling everyone, I’m making a proclamation that I don’t value myself or my purpose or the goldenness of my energy because we empathize, we have such a a gift with our energy and everyone’s energy is so unique and beautiful and worth protecting that even thinking about this listener that is stepping into their glory but isn’t able to set those boundaries. I just want to give them a hug and be like, hey, you are super valuable and it’s about time that you saw it for yourself and started to really speak up. And I love what you said about being confronted by other people’s boundaries too, and how when someone sets a boundary that we don’t like, all of a sudden we have the the clarity of insight of like, oh, crap. Yeah, I get it. I do respect that person for setting the boundary, but it can hurt sometimes. And that’s okay.
Like, that has to be okay in a world where we respect ourselves and others. In equal, if not slightly skewed measure?
Victoria Volk: The pendulum can also swing way the other side. Right? Like, where we create boundaries to keep people out and to isolate. And to give ourselves a pass for not leaning into our energetic bigness. Right? Are you familiar with human design? I bet you are.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, girl. What are you? I’m a generator.
Victoria Volk: Nanafaster. Oh. So I’m gonna double whammy. For anyone listening, it’s a double whammy, it’s an empath or a highly sensitive person to either be a projector. Or a manifesto?
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because we we generators.
We’re here to work. We’re here to build, you know, legacies and and our work here. But as a manifesto, You know, projectors wait for the invitation. Right? So how do you what is your strategy to inform?
Victoria Volk: Oh. And you’re boundarying all over the place and initiating. Like, it’s I’m here to initiate others. And so that’s created a lot of grief in my life. Like, people feel my energy before they encounter me. And I I’ve always and, you know, when I learned about the repelling aura that a manifesto can have. I’m like, no wonder. What day of my life? Like, no wonder I felt rejection over and over and over throughout my life. Like, rejection is huge for a manifesto. And as a generator, you can easily be taken advantage of. Your energy can easily be taken advantage of, which is so highly important for generators and manifesting generators alike to to have boundaries, right, around their energy because you really have to be lit up as a generator to what you’re giving your energy to.
Amanda Popovski: Yes.
Victoria Volk: And that’s how you burn out. And I burn out by by well, kind of the same thing, you know, because manifesting generators and manifestors manifesting generators have a little bit of manifestor in them, right, obviously. But I have to put my energy into initiating and creating things. And if and being able to initiate people in the work that I do, especially, I have recognized just because I’ve only been really playing around with my own experiment in the last year. But it’s been huge for relationships in recognizing why things went the way they did, why friendships faded. It’s helped to come to acceptance, I think, more readily just by recognizing that oh, yeah. I initiated that. Like, I I started to use my throat chakra. Right? Which many manifestors have been taught to really shrink down. So, yeah, it’s it’s huge for like, this podcast has been huge for my my throat chakra. Huge for my throat chakra. But anyway, this is not about me.
Amanda Popovski: That isn’t it?
Victoria Volk: No. I know. But I think it’s great conversation for anyone listening to in respect to being an empath or highly sensitive person and blending in human design. I think it’s I’m going to put that in the show notes too and I have many times because I sprinkled it in throughout many episodes. But How has human design helped you as an empath and highly sensitive person as a generator?
Amanda Popovski: Oh, good grief. It’s been a total game changer. It human design I don’t know how it works. I don’t know why it works. Sometimes it makes me so mad that it does work because I’m like, this can’t be real.
I can’t I can’t be so connected to something that I have no idea where it came from or who made it.
Victoria Volk: No. No. No. No. Actually.
Amanda Popovski: Exactly. It has helped me understand that my energy is worth protecting that I need to that I do need to value my purpose. And the work that I do and that I need like Mandy needs to be feeling good in order to create her purpose because that’s the life thread, this golden thread that a generator pulls from is their own, I’m an emotional authority. So if I’m, oh hell yeah. Okay.
Cool. You might do. So if if my emotions ain’t happy, then like no one’s happy. I’m affecting the emotions of everyone around me. When I’m in a mood, Everyone can feel it. And part of that is empath, but the other part of it is that it’s my authority. It’s how I author my life. It’s through my emotions and feeling good and vibrant and excited. That’s really what led me to the decision to leave corporate is that I thought that it was I really wanted to leave corporate once I matched my income with my business. But then someone like a financial adviser was like, okay, yeah, we can we can look into and project if you’re there for one year, for two more years, for three more years, and I felt it, I was like, oh, no. No. No. That’s not gonna be happening. I am probably going to leave, and I did a lot of intuition, worked a lot with my mindset, things that coaches do, and got to a place where I was able to leave, that was a month and a half ago, and I have never experienced more success personally, professionally in, like, vibrant feelings. It’s like I took a dim, like, a thousand milligram. It feels amazing because I’m really where I’m meant to be. So that was a huge boundary for me to set with myself, with my employers with my family who might not understand and with the universe of being, like, I’m ready to go big. Let’s do it. Let’s see what’s on the other side.
Victoria Volk: I just got, like, truth bumps. Oh. So what did that? I mean, you know, I have a day job. Oh, you you know? I do. I’m in in corporate and I don’t talk about it much and where I struggle is and I’m only sharing this because I think it would be helpful for listeners too because I don’t talk about it a lot. And it’s not that I you know, is it my passion? No. Because my passion is being of service in this way of energy healing work and grief work and all that. But it it’s what it allows me to do. Because I do have a lot of freedom in it, and I do have a lot of flexibility. And it kinda checks a lot of boxes for me. And it does provide safety and security. Right?
And I do have a family, and I cover the insurance. I have a lot of layers to to a decision like that, but it if I would not I would be lying if I say, I do not think about that day when I can cut the umbilical cord. You know what I mean? Mhmm. And so when you said that, I’m like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 0: That sounds like heaven.
Victoria Volk: And as a manifestor, to do what I want, when I want, like, it is the ultimate living in alignment. Right? And so it’s like, I feel like this constant push and pull. Yeah. And my energy, right, is constantly, like, I and I have three kids and, you know, one’s in college and one is, like, taking college classes. And the other one is starting to take college classes too, and they’re still in high school that one’s graduating this year. And so I’m at that age of, like, well, in three years, I’m gonna be an empty nester and, oh, like, that’s just crazy to me. You know? And so I’m kind of getting to this. It’s like, you know, waiting for my ship to come in. Right? And taking that leap of faith into the dam ocean and, you know, with a life preserver and know that I’m being held. Right? So please speak to that a little bit more if you could. Please because Oh, yeah. Not only help me, but anyone listening, I’m sure.
Amanda Popovski: Okay. Yes. Beautiful. So the bio that you gave is what I filled out when I filled out the application, but it’s actually changed. I forgot to ask you that.
That’s a okay. That’s a okay. What I do now is still a life and business coach for women, but I help them play bigger, tap into their limitless potential, like, I’m still articulating the messaging around it, but it’s really about that, about leap of faith, trusting in the universe. How do we manifest all of those things? So this is very topical and top of mind. That leap of faith that I took was the week before I decided to do it, I had plans, grand plans to do it in June. And I didn’t do it in June. And it felt okay to me. I was like, oh, well, I’m just like working on my business on the side. And then come June, I started to notice that when I walked into the office, I started to get anxious. I started to feel my body, like my soul leaving my body, but I still denied it. I was like, oh, god. It’s so scary. I don’t I’m not ready. I had zero clients at the time. And I was like, yeah, I’m I’m not ready to do this yet. But the feeling in my body persistent and I started to worry and ruminate And then I got to a point where I was doing like a card reading or something, and I pulled the card yes. And it just says yes. And it says yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all over it. And it was at that point that I was like, I couldn’t leave my job, and I just kind of let that sit in the air. And as a generator, we respond. Right? So I said that and I waited for my response. And the response was like, yeah, soon, probably. You’ll be leaving.
The real thing that tipped me off was that I had set some three month goals that took me to October, and it was for eight clients or something. And one of my sucky thoughts as I call them, one of my obstacles was like, I can’t make that work with corporate, and the universe was like, you won’t have to. I was like, oh my gosh. So when you’re making a decision like that, it is imperative that you continue to listen to the universe and heed its call. Because your mind is going to be like, yeah, I can leave whenever. I’m a badass. But if the universe keeps saying soon, soon, soon, like it did to me, and you rebel and you’re like, what the hell? Like, I’m ready now. Why aren’t you letting me leave? It really takes a sense of release and surrender to be like, I know that in the right time, at the right moment, I will be able to leave. It was terrifying. The week before I decided to put in my two weeks, I was a mess. My mind was all over the place. It was like, what are you doing? Here are all the reasons it, like, rolled out the scroll and it was like, hey, here are all the reasons that you should not be doing this. But I just continued to listen to that voice in the back of my head that was like, you’re gonna do this. And I trusted that whatever was on the other side was so much better than what I was going through at that time. And my job in corporate was the least corporate corporate job. I worked at a startup who was all young and fun and hip. But In the end, I just had this feeling that as I was leaving, that I wouldn’t regret it. And I had to really lean into faith, like you said, and also lean into my body to make sure that everything was still feeling good in the core at its core. And it did and I left I left with a bang. I threw everyone at Taco Party and I gave them a presentation about what I learned and I made them cookies and I just like made it the biggest celebration of all time. And then I signed my first five figure client, like, within three weeks. But I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I hadn’t listened to my energy. I think as empaths, we have this really incredible ability to be highly sensitive, not only to other people, but once we set those boundaries, we start to gain like master level sensitivity to ourselves. And our intuitions and our next steps. And it’s such a beautiful gift.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing that. And what came up for me was I haven’t I I’m not there yet. Like, it’s like this. It’s like this. Yeah. I know Sunday, but it’s not like this, oh, hit my stomach. You know, I don’t mind what I do. Right? I don’t would I rather be doing something else? Yeah. But it’s not like this visceral response. Like when I was with a different company, that was visceral. Like, you know, I’m in a much better environment doing the same work, but I’m in a much better environment now. And so for an empath or highly sensitive person, our environment really matters that we hold the container that we have ourselves in, where we work. Our environment is really really matters. Now it’s our home environment. That’s where we work, where we choose to play. I think that I think that’s understated. I don’t know why. Like, that just came to me right now to share that. And so I feel like my environment is supportive right now. That’s probably why I’ve not had this visceral experience to, like, cut the cord right now.
Amanda Popovski: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, I love that you said that about the environment because our boundaries with people are important and so are our boundaries with inanimate objects, concepts, things like that. Like screen time.
I’m super sensitive to screen time. I’m super sensitive to the food that I eat. I’m very sensitive to, like, watching TV at night. I know what rituals are going to make me feel like Oh, return to my body in my environment. My favorite places my room.
I love to be in my room. That’s like where I recharge. And I think for an empath or highly sensitive person finding that place. That feels rejuvenative to you can be such a rewarding and deeply nourishing process.
Victoria Volk: I was just reflecting this morning on my sleep last night because I wear a garment and it tells me like my sleep score and it was it was really poor last night and it showed my stress level because it it uses heart rate variability and it like my stress, I can definitely when I when I when I drink alcohol, which isn’t often, but when I do my stress level at night, my sleep is not great. It’s horrible. And even if I just have one or two, like, it really affects my sleep. And, you know, my stress level is higher. And I ate last night late, later than typical, like, around eight o’clock.
I usually don’t eat that late. And I don’t know if that’s why. There’s other things going on with someone I care about. So it’s like, is that why? But it’s like, again, it’s like, like, what’s happening within my body that did cause me not to have this rejuvenative, rested sleep. And I was in bed for over nine hours, but and I you know, it said I slept like seven or seven, but it wasn’t restful and it wasn’t rejuvenating. And so I would just encourage people too, like, to your point about food and sensitivities and things like that. Like, if you’re sleeping like crap, just kinda keep a journal and keep track of what, you know, for like a good two weeks to see how things are affecting you and impacting you because that’s how you connect the dots and that’s it It’s just data. Right? I think it’s so important for us as highly sensitive people to kinda take ownership of our energy in that way and and track and find these data points that are blatantly clear if we just attend to them.
Right?
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. And what got up for me was grief of the normal for highly sensitive people. So, like, my boyfriend, for example, is the most normal person I’ve ever met. He loves pizza and beer and video games, he loves football on Sundays, he goes to family parties, like all these different things. I think when you’re highly sensitive, you start to set boundaries, you start to move into your purpose. There is this grieving of, why can’t I be normal? Like, I I I I wish in some ways that I enjoyed a glass of wine because I think it’s so chic and cool, but I get like really sleepy and I get a headache so I’m like, no, no, that’s not for me. I have very recently been playing with nutrition and what really nourishes the body like an anti inflammatory diet. And so I know now that sugar gluten, corn, peanut butter, cry, peanut butter. All of these things like they don’t they don’t make me feel good and it is actively hurting my body when I eat them. And it was such as much as it was a process of releasing those foods, it was a process of releasing the person that can just go to a restaurant and order like a turkey club. Right? Or a person that can just go out on a Friday night and like party it up, you know it a club or whatever. But when you’re different like us, I feel like there’s real room for you. This listener, for example, that is stepping into her purpose and everyone around her is like, what the fuck? Can I swear?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’s already explicit. I spoke to you.
Amanda Popovski: Okay. Good. Everyone around her who’s like, what’s going on? Like, they’re basically asking her why aren’t you normal. Mhmm. And it’s really critical, I think, for us during these transitions to take that time and grieve who we were, the ideal daughter family member, restaurant, a tender, right, the ideal student, whatever, when we have these divergences in what is considered normal in society, that grief is something that I don’t think we talk about enough. It’s like grieving the person that was compliant, the woman that did play small. Those are big concepts, deeply rooted concepts. And what’s beautiful is that on the other side of that grief is real power to step into that process. But sometimes there’s an ugly in between of like being the goop in the butterfly chrysalis before it becomes that butterfly.
Victoria Volk: I love that metaphor. Also, I think when it comes to nutrition, I think that’s been huge too for me with my human design because the digestion piece, because I I had tried this you know, eating a hundred and fifty six grams of protein and over two thousand calories. And I was like, I felt so heavy. Yeah. And after a week of, like, trying to, like, Making sure I got my over ten thousand steps and doing these intense workouts and eating so much food, I never felt so horrible after a week. And, like, this is not for me. I completely found something that has now. I’m at a calorie that I’m at a calorie count that feels doable, manageable, typical, like normal for me. I don’t feel weighed down. I feel lighter. I have more energy actually. It’s really ironic. I’m lifting more. I’m moving more weights. My age after three weeks on my health fitness age has decreased. My three years? Yes. So I’m, like, I’m a line now. And it’s more of, like, I should be more of a grazer and more, like, not such heavy meals and, you know, not those three square meals a day and eating so much and There you go. I had my big meal last night before bed, like, duh.
Amanda Popovski: Oh my god.
Victoria Volk: I ate too much.
Amanda Popovski: My bad.
Victoria Volk: I solved it. I ate too much.
Speaker 0: I kinda knew that. Like, why am
Victoria Volk: I eating before? Yeah. See, here’s a lesson for y’all. Like, learning human design. Learn about your digestion.
Do your body a favor. Take some damn.
Amanda Popovski: Don’t be afraid to be abnormal either.
Victoria Volk: And Don’t be afraid to find your normal.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Your natural. Yes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So let me let’s we’re gonna pivot and I mean, we’ve talked about food, but in like that familial acceptance, and I’m just kinda looking at my notes here. I want you to I don’t remember if you know what you said. When I asked in my form, I asked, what would you like to stream to the world? In the past or recently and wish people knew about your grief. Do you remember what you said?
Mm-mm. Okay. I’ll read it to you, and you tell me if it would change or if it’s what you would say today. I wish people knew that I wasn’t weak, soft, or a woozy, that I’m strong, and my inner world has vast and rich, but my emotions can be fragile. In a grieving period, I like to be as alone as humanly possible, and that doesn’t make me strange. It makes me a good steward of my own life force. You don’t have to understand me to love me, but I always trust that in loving me, you must allow me to make my own decisions about what can help me process and understand my experience. It takes more time and emotional energy than most of the world may allow, but affords me a wealth of experience and empathy that most of the world may never know. I thought it was so beautifully written. And so maybe you wouldn’t wanna change it, but is there anything you would like to add?
Amanda Popovski: Oh, mama. That was an a stirring experience to hear that. Back because as if I recall as I was filling out that application, especially the way that you structured and how your energy is imbued, I felt very free to speak openly about these concepts. And you caught an Amanda that exists underneath like the coaching layer that kind of took me a back and and was really moving. So The only thing that I would add is that I wish this to be the attitude of all HSPs and empaths.
That deep down, we see the true beauty in who we are, and we see the power of the way that we process, and we see the beauty that we in our emotional vastness affords the world. We are like the artists and the feelers and the tender beating heart of humanity, and we should never squash that down. Because if we do, then we lose the fight to the robots and nobody wants that.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for bringing that up. That’s a great segue. To a comment I made before we started recording and in talking about, like, AI. And and I encouraged you to jump on the podcasting bandwagon because I think there’s nothing more important now than storytelling. And even, you know, children’s books, I’ve been I’ve been seen how people are kind of bucking AI in that way and how people are really wanting I mean, it’s through storytelling that we have deep connection that we find connection with other people. And in that and written word has energy. Right? The written word has energy. And so if everything we’re reading doesn’t have humanness to it, are we then desensitizing ourselves as a society to what it means to be human. I mean, that’s a huge concept. And I’m maybe it’s like a download. I don’t know, but with so much happening and especially in the US right now. And the how AI is in all aspects of our lives, I think it’s in the human connection, the storytelling. Rather than the number of characters that one can type. Or I just heard a brilliant idea for someone shared with me, a good friend shared. There’s a subscription where you can it’s a different way. It’s like, think book reading, but it’s in a letter form where you’re you’re you’re reading you get a letter sent a written letter sent to your inbox. And it’s like you become invested in this story. And it’s in a subscription. I’m like, oh my god.
That is genius. Why didn’t I think of that? Like, sending people letters. Like and I don’t know how the letters are Like, if it’s, like, just I don’t know. Like, if is it, like, handwritten and then just reproduced for people who are subscribers, I’m not sure. I didn’t, like, look deeply into it, but I’m, like, that’s brilliant. And I just think it’s in the storytelling that we see ourselves and other people’s stories, that we, I think, can look beyond what someone is projecting and look at them as more human when we know their story. Right? It’s hard to be angry at someone when we know their story. You know? Did you ever have somebody just ever ask you, what’s happened to you?
Amanda Popovski: I have had someone tell me you seem different. Which I thought was interesting.
Victoria Volk: Different as in, like, the Amanda now or different as in as a child or as you were growing up?
Amanda Popovski: The Amanda now versus the one that they knew in the past. Which because I value growth as well, I saw as a sign of a very positive sign. Mhmm. Like, yes, I am moving up in the world and, you know, all those things at the time that that, like, career trajectory and all those things were super, super important to me. But I love the idea that we can everything you just said about storytelling is just still rolling around in my head. Because when we ask someone, what happened to you. We give them or maybe in slightly kinder words, maybe. We give them the opportunity to share their story with us. And that creates circles where AI technology just create lines. You know? Like, there’s real connection between people when we tell stories. I was listening to a podcast a while ago and they were talking about the writer strike about using AI and chat GPT in screenwriting. And one of the hosts pointed out that when we view a film that is so to us is so perfect, part of what we love about that perfection is that it was created by another human being. With the same brain as us, but they access something different. They, like, did they made something beautiful with their mind.
And so, I think, valuing the imperfection of human experience rather than the productivity and perfection and, like, cold metal hardness of AI. Is valuable. And I like to think since I learned about digital minimalism, which is basically like being really intentional with what apps you have on your phone, how you use it, etcetera, making your smartphone dumb basically. I’ve become a true believer that I think the pendulum will swing in in our lifetime, that everyone will get so anxious and fed up with all of this vast communication networks that the majority of us will actually take a step back, start to align our values with what we do, and we’re gonna see kraft’s people come through. And we’re gonna see people using the Internet for like an hour a day instead of eight hours a day. And I have a lot of hope for humanity that the things that I value that feel really true to me, will start to disseminate in the world and that there will at least be a few of us who are more like, put your feet in the grass rather than play a game on your phone.
Victoria Volk: What has been the one grief experience that you think has in the catapult for your glow up, your your evolution, like your Oh. Yeah. The amount of now.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. It was the grieving. So when I I decided I got my corporate job and I was about a year and a half in. And I’d gotten to senior level, which was very exciting. And I had always wanted a company to pay for me to travel. And I was traveling, I went to San Francisco for an accounting smart last, which sounds super nerdy, but I freaking loved it. And it was the week of my birthday. And I remember waking up on my birthday. And in this really nice hotel, in this new city, and just being like, I can’t I can’t do this. This isn’t my dream.
This is the dream of someone else. And at that time, I hired a coach and I started to work on expanding my digital marketing business and like going full ham with that because I was so wounded by my previous experience with coaching and what people I loved had sent to me. I pushed it off. But it got to a place where I realized that I do wanna be a coach for whatever reason. It just pulled to me.
It pulled to me. It kept pulling to me. It was the single thread of pull through my life in the past. And I made this hundred slide PowerPoint presentation. I sat my parents down and I walked them through it and explained very rationally and very logically. That I was working with a coach and that I wanted to be a coach and that their love and support had gotten me to this place and I understand if they don’t understand, but this is what I want my career to be. Were they okay with it? I don’t know. We’ve gotten to a good place with it now, but I deeply remember doing that presentation, getting their quote unquote blessing, which was important to me at the time. Going up to my room, sinking to my knees, and just crying, like, crying, crying, crying. And I think that what this was is the grieving of the Amanda that I thought could make my parents proud, my immigrant dad, my hardworking mom whose upbringing was really tough. My family who saw me with so much potential in the corporate world, my friends who I had who didn’t understand what coaching was or entrepreneurship, and myself the version of me that was like, yes, I finally did it. I twisted myself into the pretzel that everyone wanted me to be. And with this decision to be a coach, I untwisted that whole pretzel and I stopped being someone who accepted, someone who was palatable, I guess. And that was hugely grief inducing for me a especially as a highly sensitive person whose goal was to be understood and to feel like she belonged and to feel like she had a place. I had made a place for myself and corporate where I felt spected by my family, by my peers. And it was just the realization kind of clinking into place that I would never be this normal person. That I had successfully fooled myself into being. Once I processed that, I looked back a few times, but I I didn’t look back and I made it my mission to be more in line with my purpose than with anyone else’s opinion of me and set boundaries along the way for that. And now, I feel like the Amanda in this chair today is the Amanda that my soul has always wanted me to be, someone who’s present and grounded and really changing lives and trusting deeply and herself.
Victoria Volk: And it sounds like to me that you’ve aligned your life with your values.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. With my values, not necessarily anyone else’s values.
Victoria Volk: Which doesn’t include people pleasing. Yeah. This is what I heard a lot of in what you shared, because we can do a lot of people pleasing for acceptance as highly sensitive and empathic people.
Amanda Popovski: That’s good. Thank you for reflecting that back. I haven’t thought about that in a long time.
Victoria Volk: What is the best piece of advice did you receive? From someone that as you were kind of going, did you first of all, I mean, it’s it’s hard to find people. Right? Like, because oftentimes the people closest to you who have skin in your game are not the people who are gonna be in support of your dreams. Let’s not be real.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And so, I guess, my piece of advice for highly sensitive people are in paths and all people in general is to find that person that doesn’t have skin in your game. Meaning, whatever choices or decisions you make will not have a direct impact or effect on them. And so did you find that for yourself or what was the most helpful piece of advice or something that you discovered that was really helpful for you in navigating all of that.
Amanda Popovski: Can the advice come from a book? Absolutely. Okay. We’re gonna have a thousand books in the description, but this book is untamed by London Doyle. It is a very good read. If you’re ready for it, it’s It encourages you to play big in a way that’s absolutely awesome. She was an alcoholic. I think she still identifies as an alcoholic, but sober. And in one of her first AA meetings, she shared her story and someone someone came up to her afterwards and was like, hey, thank you for sharing your story. I relate to it a lot. I wanna tell you that Something nobody told me at the beginning is that your feelings are there to be felt, all of them. And Glenin reflects on the fact that she she thought only good things were meant to be felt, that the negative emotions were meant to be swept away under the rug and meant to be solved and figured out, but that to fully feel them, that’s why a soul floating in the ether chose you to be the human that they inhabit. Right? The the highs and the lows, the terrible, terrible pain, and the absolutely ecstatic bliss. This is what souls floating in the ether are like, I get to be human yay. You know? So that had a massive impact on me and it allowed me especially as a highly emotional person to see to have like an almost cool detachment from my emotions to want to feel them, to want to be vibrantly in on the game of life, but not let them toss me around to still be the leader in this time of grief.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Yes. Another resource for the show notes. Now, I can tell you’re probably much younger than me. And so you’re probably in the throes.
Well, you have a boyfriend you stated, but you’ve been in the dating game, of course, as a,
Amanda Popovski: oh, girl.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So can you just reflect a little bit on that experience as a highly from the perspective of a highly sensitive and path like person in finding your match.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. I love this story. Okay. So I have a a a long history with dating apps in today’s day and age. I we’ve come to them and then flood them and then leave basically. And I did this a few times before I decided really intentionally a few summers ago, maybe four or four years ago, that I wanted to be intentional, and I wanted to set that boundary. And I wanted to only go on dates. Like, I wanted to stay open, but only go on dates that I felt like I couldn’t have a real connection with, not just someone who was very attractive. And that led me to Well, it’s fun about highly sensitive people. They’re often very intelligent and ambitious. And my ambition, I was like, I’m gonna read a blog post about going on ten dates in four weeks, and then I’m gonna beat famous. And so I set up all these dates And I went on most of them, and all these guys were great. I could see them being a match. But by the sixth date, I was like, oh, gosh. I don’t feel good.
And I was feeling burnt out by the experience. So I was like, yeah, okay. I’ll never be famous for this, and I I deleted the app. And my boyfriend and I met through a blind date, through my mom, and line dates, especially through moms, are super uncommon nowadays. Yeah. But I I had decided after that whole summer of love or whatever that I was just going to focus on my relationship with myself as absolutely corny as that sounds. And it was when I wasn’t looking for a relationship that my mom texted me and was like, if I set you up on a blind date, will you go? And I was like, yes, absolutely. Just tell me when and where. Can you transfer?
Can I just send a text to her? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my mom’s the coolest. Of course, I trust her. But maybe maybe other moms. Might be a little crazy, but we I went on the state not expecting a lot. I looked him up on Facebook. He didn’t look me up. He didn’t know what to expect that I couldn’t handle the tension of not knowing.
And we went on the state and it was fine. We talked for a while. I remember the waiter put we both ordered two sushi rolls And on our plates, they had put one of his sushi rolls and one of mine, and on his plate, one of his and one of mine. And I distinctly remember me finishing my side on my plate and waiting, you know, being polite and like first lady and being like, oh, you know, maybe he’ll notice that I have his role or whatever. Immediately, he was like, hey, give me your plate.
What’s going on here? And I was like, oh, interesting. He anticipated my needs. But it was it was fine. Like, I didn’t feel an instant connection. And I got in the car to drive home And my intuition was like, you’re gonna go on a second date. I was like, oh, okay. That’s fine. And then by the fourth date, my intuition was like, yeah, this this guy is really good for you. This is the one. And this came from someone who is
Victoria Volk: A one.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. Yes. Crazy. Because we we didn’t have a lot in common. I pictured always pictured myself with someone, highly entrepreneurial who would vibe with me on an intellectual level and we’d have all these conversations, whatever. But he’s like, just this this Irish boy that I can speak to from an energetic perspective no one has made me feel more secure or grounded in my energy. And I felt very early on that my inner child was welcome to come out to play with him in a way that had never happened with his, like, highly intellectual man that I had been dating. I think if someone’s on the dating scene now who is an empath and highly sensitive, I recommend What I did because of the digital minimalism thing is I would delete the app during the day, so I wouldn’t be tempted to check it. And that really helps me establish good boundaries of like this is not my entire life I don’t need to be stuck doom scrolling through these guys. And that helped me just do an automatic barrier between my energy and theirs. And then I didn’t do a very good job of this, but something I would tell someone is to really, like, mitigate your energy on a first date because you are trying so hard to be so smiley and attractive and, like, suck them out. They’re trying to suss you out. So my recommendation is to set it at like an hour and then leave and then see how you feel and if you wanna do a second date. That’s great advice.
Yep.
Victoria Volk: And also maybe before you even open the app, make sure that your energy is aligned with finding someone who is aligned with you rather than this desperate I need someone in my life energy. Right? Like, because you’re gonna attract someone very different depending on your energy. Right? Like, you’re gonna be looking for different things based on, like, no, I’m I’m coming into this.
I want someone who can match me in this energy that I am in now who values growth and, you know, has that forethought vibe about themselves where they’re grounded in the present moment but still have or, like, this visionary person or whatever it is you’re looking for. Right? Mhmm. I think that’s equally important to go into it with the energy of what you’re trying to match with and whom you’re trying to match with, I should say.
Amanda Popovski: That’s good advice, you know.
Victoria Volk: I also heard
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Go ahead.
Victoria Volk: I also heard through I love the radio show, Brooke and Jeffrey in the morning. It’s hilarious. Mhmm. On Spotify, they do second date updates, they do, like, there’s been some really funny stories on there. It’s it’s my daily dose of humor and black out louding to myself. But anyway, one of the things that I’ve learned I’m not in the dating world. I haven’t been for, like, over twenty years, and I couldn’t imagine being in the dating world today, which is why I wanted to for you to share. But one of the things that someone had talked about was they had a because the dating apps can be exhausting and for, like, all the reasons you said, and they have what some women are doing now is they’re having, like, these dating app parties with their girlfriends. And their girlfriends are choosing who they go on a date with. Whoo. How fun does that sound? Right? Like, you’re trusting the people closest to you to find a match for you rather than your own ego and your own like getting all in your head and all of that. The people that know you the best. Right?
And so that’s why I think like no one knows their child better or no one knows you better than you know yourself, number one. But secondly, if you are all, you know, if you can’t get the emotion out of it, that’s, you know, especially if you’re an emotional. Right? You gotta ride the emotional wave and sometimes that can take weeks and You know what I mean? So you kinda need some support in that way, like someone who can be objective. Right? So that’s why I think that’s a great idea potentially for highly sensitive empathic people. So, Jamie, I just thought I’d throw that out there too.
Amanda Popovski: I love that because then you’re not a lot of the time if we see someone very attractive and very well matched for us, we’re gonna talk ourselves down from it. But your friend, your BFF is gonna be like, oh, totally. I see I see this, this, and this, and you, that would make them a really great match. So I think it gets you out of your head really good way. So good.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Is there anything else that you feel like you didn’t get to share that you’d like to share?
Amanda Popovski: Only thing that comes to mind is when you are grieving, use your voice. I don’t really know what it means,
Victoria Volk: but I like it. That is good advice. These so many of us crave alone, especially as empaths and highly sensitive people. It can be very easy. To get to a point where especially as children, you know, children have no filter. Children show us I mean I mean as babies we cry. Right? That’s all that’s our language. We cry. And the longer we are in society and we grow up and we’re around people who don’t even cry, we don’t even cry anymore. We get to a point where we don’t even cry. And as this, I think, a highly sensitive person in empath, I think that is our love language. For ourselves, that’s the love we can give to ourselves, is to allow ourselves to cry. As I know for myself, you know, I was taught to if, you know and I and not just highly sensitive people in in paths alone, but that’s one of the things that many people will say, like, as a child, you know, you wanna cry, I’ll give you something to cry about. You wanna cry, go to your room. I was told that as a child. And I did. And to the point where I would fall asleep under my bed. Like, I didn’t just go on top of my bed to cry. I went underneath my bed. I went into the linen closet. I would hide to cry. The kitchen cupboard, a hid to cry. One time they even sent a search party out, that’s the time I was in the linen closet. They didn’t know where I was. And I reflect on that as an adult. And doing the work, the personal development work, and going through grief recovery myself, I cried it was like the the dam broke and thirty plus years of tears came out. And I left that experience a different person than I went in. And that that’s when I started to use my voice. It’s like the tears that were so bottled up. It was like they were choking me. You know? And I think that’s what grief does too to us. It especially as a highly sensitive person or empathic person, it, like, just tangles everything up. And you just gotta start pulling the thread.
Amanda Popovski: And I love that you said it centralized. You made a motion at your neck. And that’s that’s the throat chakra. Connection between the head and the body. I think it makes us so in our minds and may be so surprised when our body finally shows up and has these retching knobs coming through us. But if we can get into the practice of using our voices when we’re grieving. Think it allows us to heal mind and body together through that connection.
Victoria Volk: Let me ask you this. So I think one of the greatest gifts I gave to myself was because I, you know, I also thought something was wrong with me as you did too. You expressed that. Like, you feel like you’re different. You know you’re different. You feel like I was the kid ordering home reading books from this elastic in elementary school and my friends were ordering like books to read or comic books or whatever it was. And here, I’m reading, like, ordering Paul, reading books. And I collected stickers. And, you know, yeah, the weirdo. Right? And actually someone in my graduating class on the back of his senior picture he gave me. He even stated that. Like, you were weird, but you know, good luck to you or something. I didn’t remember exactly, but he he called me weird. My kids have called me weird, but I look at it now or I feel like, you know what? I’m gonna let my weird way let weird flag fly. And I’ve definitely learned how to embrace it, but I was looking for anything and everything to discover and learn about myself because it’s like I was so disconnected from and because a lot of that had to do with my grief and trauma growing up, but and things I experienced early on in my life, but to really connect with the the child within me. Right? And I remember, like, because I was like, I have Simeon lines on the whole fans.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, I don’t. Wow. So this is
Victoria Volk: all, like, head and heart so confused, like, head and heart, like yeah. So I’m like, okay. Well, that, you know, explains my indecisiveness and my emotional roller coaster I’m constantly on. And then in the last five years since going through group recovery and stuff, I discovered you map and Clifton strengths, gout, Clifton strengths and stuff. And here I have, like, all mostly thinking themes, well, okay, no wonder. Yeah. Sounds like all of these little pieces and just and then human design, like, all these tools and little pieces of knowledge that I’ve picked up along the way have really helped me get to where I’m at now, you know, to and understand. I have this NAT. A lot of plants and then there’s they come with NATs and they drive me crazy. So But no. I, you know, I think any little piece that we can find to help us better understand ourselves gives us one step closer to really embracing our uniqueness. And so, I guess, you mentioned self help books, but were there any tools and things that you feel like have really been pivotal in helping you embracing your uniqueness.
Amanda Popovski: The big thing that comes to mind is actually human design. Yeah? Yeah. That’s been a like a real game changer. And then not to be biased, but having a coach has been there’s a very distinct difference between who I was before. I worked with a coach and who I am now. Just in terms of what I truly believe is possible for myself is so highly elevated that it’s like I kind of thought I could be this person but I didn’t really know until I was consistently pushed to my limits and had different perspectives and mentorship offered to me. I don’t think I could have done it just with human design or just with books. I think I needed that one on one relationship with a mentor, a coach, someone that knows how to help you excel. That’s a that a
Victoria Volk: huge modality for me. Like my dear friend says, you can’t see the label from inside the jar.
Amanda Popovski: You can’t see the cover from inside the book. That’s what came to mind. Yeah. I love that. Your friend is very wise. He should be on the podcast.
Victoria Volk: She has been. Early on. Yeah. Early on when I started.
Amanda Popovski: What was it for you?
Victoria Volk: Well, if I would say most recently, Most recently, it would be human design in the past year, just in really understanding my manifesto energy. But what unlocked my life and my grief was grief recovery. Was going through that experience and doing that really deep work that I still continue to do. It’s you know, I’m all I’m a work in progress. We all are always. And also coaching. Like, I’ve had my own coaches, you know, and that’s an investment in yourself. I had a my grief. I have a client right now and she asked me a really insightful question. I made a note of it. But she asked me, Like, how is the grief recovery method or how is the program that she’s in different from therapy and and wanted me to explain it? Mhmm. And What came up for me was the theme that you and I have been sharing this whole time is storytelling. And I think that’s what really sets grief recovery apart is that because in the work that I do with clients, I always go first. I share first.
And I think that is just it’s disarming for the other person. It’s how we connect with each other. It’s how I connect with my guests when they’re on this podcast. It’s this back and forth. It’s this in communion with our life experience. Right? It’s a breaking of bread of our grief, so to speak. I think that’s why this podcast works, at least I think it does. I mean, the stats are showing it does. And sometimes with therapy or therapists, people who are, you know, like psychotherapists or psychiatrists, and that’s I think the missing piece. Is that there’s this barrier that’s kind of put up and she expresses herself. She’s like there’s this wall almost because the therapist is not sharing anything from their lives. And of course, they have, you know, there’s, I suppose, a boundary of practice. Right? Like, you know, when I get too close to your patients or clients or whatever the case may be. And I think that’s the beautiful gift, though. Of grief recovery is that that doesn’t exist. That wall doesn’t exist.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, that’s that’s so beautiful. Because you make them feel safe, but I think especially amplified by your highly sensitive nature and your empath powers are coming through in the perfect way that really is your purpose. And so tactically, it makes a lot of sense that you would go first. But when you do, Victoria, it’s like this lightning bolt of safety that is created. Like brain drops on a window almost because you have that superpower of empathy and that gift of being with others.
Victoria Volk: And have you shared that with your clients?
Amanda Popovski: Coaching that I do, the clients come to me to learn things about business strategy, about manifestation wisdom, about mindset mastery. And while I feel a kinship with my clients, I feel more like a teacher who’s leading. Which I think works. There’s a certain amount of self disclosure Mhmm. Especially with me because I’m a very Instagram focused in my marketing. So my day is I invite people to my day. But I think that they come to me because they see something in me that they want for themselves or that they feel as a part of their journey rather than being in a place of I’m experiencing this deeply sensitive time. How do I move through it with someone next to me? Right? It’s like that maybe cliched now thing of, like, there’s two footprints on the beach and Mhmm.
This is carrying you on his back. I think I’m more sitting across from my clients. Standing in what is possible, which you are as well. But I wonder what it would look like for my practice. If I were able to I think I think the nature of our work you and I allows empathy, and pastness, and high high sensitivity to blossom in two different ways. Like, we’re both flowers, but just have a different shade. Like, how your eyebrows are cousins, not twins? Like, we’re cousins, not twins.
Victoria Volk: No. That’s beautiful. I I just you know, because the work that you do in this question that she posed last night, it was just kinda stuck with me and I just kinda kinda wanted to get what your thoughts were on that.
Amanda Popovski: Someone just today actually said that we were talking about how coaching is different than therapy. And my view is that therapy is can be very past focused and very focused on the past and the present. And I think that coaching at least the kind that I do is very much focused on goals in the future. And being embodied in the present and like these concepts that because the therapist has that act of self disclosure, they they might not talk spirituality with you or human design or business strategy. Right? They’re there to be a therapeutic outlet. Whereas I I like to think that after a coaching session, at least this is me with my coach, and from what I can tell my clients with me, it’s like I feel like a superhero. Like, I just plugged into a five hundred watt amp and I feel clear and and ready to go make sure it happened. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And I’m kind of like, I want those people who want that for themselves, who are ready to open their lives up to that, but let’s look at the past. So then we don’t repeat it. Let’s become empowered by our past. Let’s look at our past with a new perspective so that we’re not pulling it and dragging it with us into our future.
Amanda Popovski: And that work that you do is ultimately such a strong foundation for the work that I would do. Mhmm. Of like, damn, you are so well regulated you know your shit, let’s just springboard and see where you can go, whereas someone who might not have that grip on the pass, more time is taken to dissect and to go back. So imagine
Victoria Volk: Imagine now. If I just referred people on to you after they’ve worked with me.
Amanda Popovski: Oh my gosh. Is a match made in heaven?
Victoria Volk: Vice versa if people come to you and you’re like, well, I think we need to look at your foundation first. Maybe you should talk to Victoria. Not quite ready. No. This has been amazing. I loved our conversation. I hope the listeners can feel our dancing of energy because I feel it and you feel like a kindred spirit. You’re like the blonde version of my very beautiful friend. And she’s a red head. And actually, your hair is really similar to she’s got this beautiful full red hair that I’ve been MDSO forever.
But yeah.
Amanda Popovski: So cool. I felt the same. This was such such a good conversation. I feel like we were talking and then our antennas were also talking.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Yes. We are a vibe together.
Amanda Popovski: I’m so sorry.
Victoria Volk: Well, where can people reach you if they would like to learn more about your work and what you do, and your awesomeness, and your beautiful golden energy?
Amanda Popovski: So it’s on my website at amanda popupsky dot com and then Instagram at amanda popupsky. If you have trouble spelling it, it’s okay. It’s in the title of podcasts. But those are my main two places that’s where I’ve been hanging out and where I’m announcing new programs and things and yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to share that.
Victoria Volk: I will put the winks in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you so much for this beautiful conversation today. It’s been a gift. Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Inspired by recent discussions, this episode offers a new perspective that’s been noodling around in my mind. In this week’s episode, I explore the question: Is there a wrong way to grieve?
Key Points:
Societal Struggles with Grief: Despite popular belief that all grieving methods are valid, society often fails at effective coping—indicating a need to reevaluate our grief practices.
Unhealthy Coping Mechanisms: People frequently turn to short-term harmful behaviors like substance abuse, gambling, or workaholism as an escape from grief rather than confronting their emotions head-on.
Cultural Responses to Grief: Common advice such as “be strong” or “stay busy” reflects societal discomfort with grief rather than offering real support for healthy emotional processing.
Impact on Children: These unhealthy responses are often learned in childhood and perpetuate ineffective grieving cycles; teaching children healthier mechanisms is crucial for breaking these patterns.
Rethinking Language: Instead of saying there’s no wrong way to grieve, acknowledging that better ways can be more constructive in framing our approach toward grief.
This episode challenges listeners to reflect deeply on their own experiences with loss while encouraging a transformative shift towards healthier approaches to dealing with grief—for individual growth and the betterment of society.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Rethinking Grief – Is There a Wrong Way to Grieve?
Grieving is an inevitable part of the human experience, yet it’s often misunderstood and mishandled. In a recent solo episode of “Grieving Voices,” the host delved into the provocative question: Is there a wrong way to grieve? This discussion was spurred by conversations on The Light Within podcast and reflections shared in The Unleashed Letters newsletter. Let’s explore this thought-provoking topic further.
Societal Struggles with Grief
Despite the widespread belief that there’s no wrong way to grieve, society’s ongoing struggle with effective grief management suggests otherwise. People frequently resort to short-term coping mechanisms that are more harmful than helpful—substance abuse, gambling, overworking—all in an attempt to escape their pain rather than face it head-on.
Cultural Responses and Myths
Cultural responses often exacerbate these unhealthy practices. Common advice like “move on quickly,” “stay busy,” or “don’t feel bad” reflects our collective discomfort with grief rather than providing genuine support. These myths perpetuate ineffective grieving processes and prevent individuals from truly processing their emotions.
Impact on Children
The consequences extend beyond adults; children learn these behaviors early on, creating a cycle of ineffective grieving across generations. Teaching healthier coping mechanisms from childhood can break this cycle, fostering emotional resilience for future generations.
Language Matters
Instead of saying there’s no wrong way to grieve, acknowledging that there are better ways could significantly shift our approach towards more constructive practices. Words shape perceptions and actions—they matter immensely in framing our experiences.
Call to Action
The episode concluded with a powerful call-to-action: listeners were encouraged to become trailblazers within their families by adopting healthier grief practices themselves and advocating for them among loved ones.
Essential Takeaways:
- Disparity Between Beliefs & Reality: There’s a gap between believing any form of grieving is acceptable versus recognizing harmful patterns.
- Challenge Cultural Myths: Questioning societal attitudes toward grief can lead us toward healthier approaches.
- Healthy Coping Mechanisms: Identifying effective strategies promotes better emotional well-being.
- Educational Role: Changing personal habits influences broader cultural shifts over time.
Reflecting on one’s own experiences and making conscious efforts towards healthy grieving not only benefits individual mental health but also paves the way for societal change—a crucial step towards collective emotional well-being.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning in to this solo episode of Greeting Voices. And when I was thinking about what I wanted to talk about today, It’s something that’s kind of come up quite a bit in conversations lately, and it was the topic of my latest newsletter, the unleashed letters, which comes out every other Wednesday. There is a link in the show notes if you’re interested after hearing this episode because this is the kind of content that I often share in the newsletter, just a variety of different topics, things that or maybe on my mind at the time or conversations I’ve been having, just inspirations and nuggets and things that I’m kind of discerning for myself and and learning and and whatnot. But anyway, today, I don’t wanna talk about this idea that the question really, is there a wrong way to grieve? In a recent podcast guesting interview that I had with Leslie Draffin, she’s the host of the light within podcast. I made a statement that had stopped me after the words left my mouth. But in that moment, they felt like truth and still do. I made mention that we’re fed this crap of how there’s no wrong way to grieve. And I’m pretty positive that even I have said such a statement at one time or another However, what struck me after I said it was how much sense it doesn’t make to me because if there’s no wrong way to grieve, then why are we struggling so much as a society with grief in general? If we knew a better way to grieve, people wouldn’t continue to turn to germs, short term energy relieving behaviors like gambling or porn or sex or substances shopping, workaholism, exercise, food, romance, fantasy, all of these things in an effort to feel better rather than actually feel and sit with the hard feelings. So as a society, if there was no air quote wrong way to grieve, then we’d be doing it better, where we wouldn’t tell people or ourselves that they should get over it and replace the loss and not feel bad and time will heal and just to keep busy, These are the things that are said and done in response to grief more commonly than not. So are these things really the right way air quote to grieve? If your child were to succumb to alcohol use? After a devastating break up, would you tell them that they’re grieving in a healthy way, a way that is air quote right and will move them forward? Or would you feel and know that they’re grieving in an unhealthy way and that there is better, more productive, and healthy way. Any logical adult with a fully formed frontal lobe would agree that there is a better way to deal with a breakup than getting drunk and losing all sense of self agency. I am speaking from experience by the way as being someone who succumb to alcohol abuse following a devastating breakup, but perhaps it’s the language we need to change. Rather than making the statement, there’s no wrong way to grieve. We should make a more honest statement and instead say, there’s a better way to grieve. You see, words matter. And I’ve come to the belief that until as a society, We recognize all the unhealthy ways we are grieving, things that we would deem as negative or, quote, unhealthy. This misinformation will continue to perpetuate the ongoing, unhealthy responses to grief that we learn as children. And my mission is to change that so that our children can grow up learning healthier ways to cope. I do feel like there’s been progress, but the statement that there’s no wrong way to grieve, I think is part of the problem. And I hope that just in this very brief episode that I’ve illustrated well enough why I believe that to be true. The myths of grief are still alive and well and how we’re responding to grief. Don’t feel bad, replace the loss, grief alone, time heals, keep busy, and stay strong. Think back to your own experiences growing up and how you were taught to respond to grief. Were difficult emotions and experiences swept under the rug and not talked about? Were you told to go cry in your room if you wanted to cry? In other words, grieve alone? Have you been told that there are plenty of fish in the sea or they’re in a better place, God needed another angel? All of these are unhelpful and can be hurtful to a griever. And yet statements like these is what caused so many of us to grieve alone. Is that wrong? Or is it instead that we just don’t know a better way? We can do better. For ourselves and for the generations behind us. But for things to change, we need trailblazers to go first. And in my family, I’ve been the trailblazer. The question is, Will you be the trailblazer in yours? Until next time, with so much love and light, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
With over a decade of experience collecting stories globally, this week’s guest and author, Annie Sklaver Orenstein, has been featured on platforms such as NBC Nightly News and Politico. Her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief, is an empathetic resource for surviving siblings—a group often overlooked in mourning.
Annie shares her insights about sibling relationships being some of the longest-lasting bonds in life. This perspective offers new dimensions to understanding grief, especially for those who haven’t experienced sibling loss themselves. She emphasizes that siblings spend more time together during childhood than with their parents—highlighting how integral these relationships are.
Annie shares her personal story of losing her brother Ben, who was killed in Afghanistan after enlisting pre-9/11 with aspirations to serve politically and make impactful changes. The raw recounting of receiving the devastating news underscores the surreal nature of loss and its immediate emotional upheaval.
Key Takeaways:
- Sibling Relationships: Often our longest-lasting bonds, crucial yet frequently neglected in grief discussions.
- Suppressing Emotions: Surviving siblings might downplay their grief to protect grieving parents.
- Anger & Coping: Allowing oneself to feel intense emotions like anger can be vital for healing.
- Cultural Misunderstandings: Children aren’t necessarily emotionally equipped despite exposure; they need support tailored to their developmental stage.
- Grief’s Unique Forms: Each person’s process is distinct; societal stages don’t capture every individual experience.
Annie highlights that while society often overlooks sibling mourners, acknowledging their unique grief journey is essential. Her advocacy through writing serves as a reminder that all forms of grief deserve recognition and respect.
Ultimately, this episode sheds light on navigating complex emotions following a sibling’s death while stressing self-compassion and honest emotional expression as pillars for coping with such irreplaceable losses.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Understanding Sibling Grief with Annie Sklar Orenstein
Introduction
Grieving the loss of a sibling is an often overlooked but profoundly impactful experience. In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” we are joined by author and qualitative researcher Annie Sklar Orenstein, who delves into the complexities of sibling grief through her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief. With over a decade of expertise in storytelling and oral history, Annie sheds light on why siblings deserve more recognition in the grieving process.
The Unique Bond Between Siblings
Annie points out that sibling relationships often last longer than any other familial bond. From childhood to adulthood, siblings share countless experiences that shape their identities. This deep connection makes losing a sibling uniquely painful. For instance, she highlights how children spend more time with their siblings than parents or fathers—a statistic supported by research.
Annie’s own children exemplify this bond; they share a room and know each other’s quirks better than anyone else in the family. This intimate relationship underscores why surviving siblings feel such an intense void when one passes away.
Personal Story: Loss of Her Brother Ben
The discussion naturally shifts to Annie’s personal experience—losing her brother Ben, who died while serving in Afghanistan due to an unexpected suicide bombing. Through recounting these events, she paints a vivid picture of sudden loss and its immediate impact on loved ones.
Ben’s death brought about overwhelming emotions for Annie and her family. She describes transitioning from everyday activities like babysitting her nephew to facing unimaginable grief together as news spread quickly among them.
Anger and Emotional Expression
One particularly resonant aspect was Annie’s struggle with anger—a new emotion for someone not typically prone to it—and how unfiltered emotional expression helped cope initially before time gradually eased some pain elements. She emphasizes allowing oneself space for raw feelings rather than suppressing them entirely can be crucial during mourning periods involving significant losses such as those stemming from close-knit relationships like between brothers/sisters alike!
Societal Oversight & Cultural Contexts
A noteworthy point discussed involves societal oversight regarding mourning practices where people often focus predominantly upon parents/partners whilst neglecting equally important roles played within families – namely surviving siblings themselves! This lack thereof awareness leads many feeling isolated/unacknowledged amidst collective sorrows shared amongst kinfolk collectively too…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me on this episode of grieving voices. Today, I’m excited to have Author Annie Slaver Orenstein. She is a qualitative researcher, oral historian and storyteller who has spent over a decade. Collecting stories from people around the world. Her work has been featured on NBC Daily News, Comedy Central, Hotbig Tim Post, political, time, and motherly. In always a sibling, the forgotten, mourners, guide to grief, Annie uses her own story and those of others to create the empathic, thoughtful, practical resource that surviving siblings so desperately need. And I did read it, and thank you so much. For sharing your work with the world. And what was eye opening for me even just early on in the first few chat couple chapters, I was like, I never really thought about how our relationship with our sibling is the longest relationship we have. Never ever looked at it like that. So thank you for that awareness that you brought to me. Amongst many other things, according to my notes. But I really enjoyed the book and I really do feel like it’s a wonderful asset for people who have lost a sibling. I personally have not lost a sibling, but I tell you just reading the book, I thought about my sister and my brother a lot, obviously, my siblings. But I’m very tight with my sister. She’s nine years older than me. And, you know, it was like my second mom and has, you know, kind of been the motherly figure in my life for much of my life. So Yeah, the bond. Right? The the sibling bond. They know your childhood, like, nobody else. That’s very true.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: They do and they you know, one of the things that I thought was so interested. There there are a lot of stats that I learned and that I heard that really stuck with me. And one of I guess, two, that really resonated with me and I think really like encapsulate this is that children siblings spend more time together in childhood than they do with their parents. And that more people, I believe this is a US debt, but more people grow up in a household with siblings than with fathers. And I look at my own kids, they’re six and nine. They absolutely spend more time together than with me. You know? And after school, they’re with us, or they’re in upper school, but they’re together. They share a room. And after I leave at night, they don’t fall right to sleep. I wish they fall right to sleep, you know, but there’s chattering and there’s stuff going on and they absolutely, you know, no things about each other that I don’t know. There will be times where, you know, my daughter tells me something, and I’m surprised to hear it, and my son is like, I’ve known that for weeks. And it’s it’s true. You know, it just it it’s how families function. It’s not like a judgment. It’s just how it’s how families function. It’s how things work. And so regardless of, you know, an adulthood whether or not you have a good relationship or a bad relationship or, you know, as most are somewhere in the middle, that time together and that, you know, kind of pressure cooker relationship, it it impacts you. It makes you who you are in many many ways.
Victoria Volk: Yes. And that was, like, I had so many ahas when I was as I was reading and and And today, we’re we’re talking about Ben, and that’s what your book is about is the loss of your brother. And the one question I had early on in the book is I’m a veteran. And I was in the National Guard. Your brother was in the reserves. Mhmm. And one of the questions I had early on in my notes was, what made him enlist in the first loop?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s a great question. And I asked him that no shortage of time. He so there were a few things. One is that he had some political aspirations. He wasn’t, like, necessarily sure if he would run for office, but maybe he would work for a politician or something like that. And he had a very strong kind of drive for service, and he felt like if he was going to do that, he should have a military background. And that having a military title would help him. He studied international affairs and diplomacy at at Fletcher, and he worked for the CDC and for FEMA. And he really felt like you know, having that having that credential would help him. It was when he enlisted, it was two thousand. So this was pre-nine eleven. They paid for him to go to grad school, know, they paid they paid for Fletcher, and and he got the the officer title. And then, you know, the second piece of it is that he had this idea that is I mean, you tell me, but logical ish to me that NGO, there are places that the Army can can go and can work and can help that aren’t even accessible to NGOs. And the army has these incredible resources and huge amounts of money, and he felt like if he was on the inside, he could use that to go into these places that really needed help and he could help them. And so on the one hand, it was kind of a strategic move. And on the other hand, it was like, and while I’m here, I actually think I can make change from the inside and do all of this good work. And that was, you know, ultimately what he was a civil affairs officer, and that was ultimately, you know, you know, what what he was working towards was a lot of infrastructure projects. And he did on his first deployment in Africa, they were bringing clean water and building wells, and he ended up forming a nonprofit when he got home to continue that work. So it was it was really a a combination of things. But I will tell you that when, you know, on nine eleven and when those towers went down, it that was when I started to be terrified. And I thought, like, why did you just do this? You know, he had finished boot camp in so I guess it was two thousand one. He had finished boot camp in August. And then the twin towers went down. And it was very quickly. We were like, oh, this is not this is not gonna be what you thought it was.
Victoria Volk: I want you to mention the nonprofit he started because I I’m kinda wondering just even reading the book. You alluded to that it’s still going. But what happened was because it was called it’s called clear water initiative.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Clearwater initiative. It was absorbed eventually. After a few my parents ran it for a few years. And it was then absorbed by another clean water NGL or absorbed I I don’t know what the right word is. Like, it’s not like it was bought, but it was like
Victoria Volk: absolved? Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So they’re still, you know, continuing the work, but it’s not run by our family anymore, it’s international lifeline fund, I believe, is what it’s what the larger organization is called, that has since kind of absorbed it and is running the project.
Victoria Volk: No, we haven’t mentioned when he actually passed and how long it’s been since you wrote the book and all of that. Can you can we kind of rewind a little bit? And then I kind of wanna re pass forward again to that mission that you initially had after he passed to give up your own dreams to pursue his and Mhmm. Kinda yeah. Let’s rewind the clock and then kind of fast forward again.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Of course. So rewind the clock to when when he passed. So he was deployed to Afghanistan in July of two thousand and nine, and he was killed on October second of two thousand nine. So it was almost, I think, just shy of three months into his deployment. And he was civil affairs officer. And so they, you know, they obviously dealt a lot with civilians, community leaders. And what we’ve been told and I I’ve since spoken to men and his unit is that there was what he thought was, you know, a meeting with a local community leader and they were out on foot and that was kind of part of it was they would go out on foot and all these things because they didn’t want to be threatening. They didn’t want to, like, show up to a meeting with a local leader in a tank. Right? So they show up on foot. The village was pretty empty, like in hindsight, suspiciously empty. But they got to where they were supposed to be this person and walked around to the back of the building, and there was a suicide bomber just waiting for them. And my brother who was the captain of their unit and then one other soldier in the unit and their translator were all killed.
Victoria Volk: And so receiving that news?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So I was you know, it surprised me at the time and still does, but, like, just how quickly they got the news to us. You know, it was that day. My parents had always said things like, no news is good news. And in, you know, leading up to that point, any period of not hearing anything, I found really terrifying. And then I realized just how quickly there were soldiers showing up at my parent store staff, and I realized no news is good news because if there’s bad news, they find you. So that night. It was a Friday. And my other brother, my brother, Sam, had a one year old, and who is now about to turn sixteen, which is wild. And I was babysitting. I was babysitting my nephew. I had just, you know, he was asleep. I had ordered dinner and I was sitting in my brother’s apartment and the front door opened. And my first thought was What is the delivery guy have a key to their apartment? I think that’s weird. And I kind of stood up to go walk over and see what was going on. And my brother and sister-in-law were standing there, and they did not look. Okay. And my my first thought was they must have gotten in a fight and, you know, now they’re home. And and literally, my first thought was like, oh, am I still gonna get this sushi or, like, am I gonna have to leave? And, like, do I wait for the delivery guy? Like
Victoria Volk: This will
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: just you know, it it really I don’t know how their faces didn’t break me out more, but they just kind of sandwiched me in a hug, and my brother Sam said, it’s Ben. And I said he’s but he’s okay. Right? And Sam said, no. Then far. And I remember sitting on their couch and kind of rocking than just saying this is not supposed to happen. This is not supposed to happen. And, you know, the kind of chain of events my dad had gotten home and there were soldiers on the on the doorstep. According to our neighbors. They had been there for a few hours, just waiting. And, you know, my parents ultimately called Sam and my my other brother. And I was living alone at the time, and so they were planning to drive into New York City to tell me because they were nervous about me getting the news, you know, alone in my apartment. And Sam said to them, she’s she’s sitting on my couch. I’ll go tell her. So he had to come home and tell me. And my brother Ben was engaged at the time and his fiance’s house was kind of in the middle of where we lived and where my parents lived. So we all met there. And then I went back home with my parents. And, you know, my it just felt like everything. Everything kind of crumbled in that moment. Right? Like, I was sitting there waiting for, like, dinner delivery. I was babysitting my nephew. And then the next thing I knew I was you know, a few hours later, I was back in my childhood home and we were figuring out who’s gonna drive to Dover to meet the transport plane and who’s gonna tell our grandma who’s you know, mid nineties and and just the the speed of it all was really surprising to me. The speed at which they got him home, the the speed at which we got the news, like, it all happened very fast especially considering that it happened very, very far away.
Victoria Volk: I like to I not like to, but I kinda think of trauma as too much, too soon, too fast.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. You
Victoria Volk: know Mhmm. How our minds can ruminate on that. On just getting the news. Right? And and what was it? Then it’s, like, later, it’s, like, a complete blur. You just I you know, having been deployed, you never I mean, it’s like, you know, we’re we’re busy. Right? We’re busy doing things and doing the mission every day and to think about the family sitting at home. Right? We, you know, we have we don’t know that side of it. My husband was through at the same time, so it was like we had a lot of family that was probably losing sleep and wondering if they were going to get a knock on the door, we did lose three men on our deployment and because we cleared roadside bones. That’s what we did. And I was a medic. So, yeah, it’s that’s the other side of the coin that the family sacrificed too. The families suffer too. And so Yeah. I I just you don’t go on deployment thinking you’re not gonna come home, but you definitely know that’s a possibility. Right? And every day Mhmm. The wire you think is today the day. And Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think about to the you know, and you were saying, like, too much, too fast. Like, I think about some of the, like, phone calls or things that that I thought were, like, really important, you know, in that moment. Like, I remember when I was done babysitting, I was going to meet up with a friend who was in town, who lived elsewhere. And I think I texted her something like, I’m I’m not gonna make it out tonight. My my brother was just killed in Afghanistan. You know? And, like, I called I was in grad school and we had, like, a Saturday workshop. And I was really nervous to call the head of my program to tell her I wasn’t gonna make it the next day. You know? And, like, I just didn’t even I didn’t know what I was saying. I didn’t know what I was doing. You know? I think there was a part of me that felt like this is the beginning and this is about to get really crazy. Like as soon as I get home as soon as I am with my parents, as soon as whatever, like, a lot of things are going to happen very quickly, and I need to just make sure no one expects anything of me, you know. In hindsight, like, I think it could have just not shown up. I could have just said, like, something came up. I’m not gonna be there or just not responded at all. You know, like but now I think about being on the receiving. Like, what would I have done if I had gotten that text from someone. What do you you know, but you’re just, like, the it it felt like methodical. Like, I didn’t know what it was doing, but I knew that I shouldn’t stand someone up. I knew that I shouldn’t just skip class. So, like, let me just let these people know, and then I can fall apart and do all of these other things. But but yeah. In hindsight, I was like, man, I, like, I knew what not. To do those few little things even though I genuinely you know, aside from that, I felt like I had no idea what was going on.
Victoria Volk: Almost as if the world stands still and then spinning around. Okay. And then your standstill, and it’s like everyone else is moving. It’s
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Yeah. And there was, like, no real filter for a while. Like, you know, I couldn’t think straight enough to even, like, filter myself. This is a this is a terrible story, but I I volunteered to go to my grandmother who was a character. She was very mean. So Leo loved her. And everyone else went to Dover. And I get cars sick and the idea of sitting in an eleven passenger van and driving from Connecticut to Delaware and back in one day so that I could see this casket move planes was too much. Like, that I something about the idea of being in that van and knowing I would be sick the whole like, I couldn’t do it. So I said, I’ll I’ll go tell grandma. And I told my grandma, you know, Ben was killed in Afghanistan. She said, what? Ben was killed in Afghanistan. And she kept saying what, and I kept saying it louder. And my boyfriend at the time, now my husband is, like, just standing off to the side, you know, clearly doesn’t know what to do is I’m just saying this over and over. And my grandma says, again, she’s in her mid nineties. And my grandma says, it should have been me. And I said, I know. Who’s like that? Except, yes, she was in her mid nineties. Yeah. But we all thought she would be the next one to go, you know? And I think about that all the time that she said it should have been made. And I said, I know. And she didn’t bat and I. You know? Like, she didn’t think it was weird. It was probably the most honest thing I’ve ever said. But there was just no filter left. You know, there was no it was all I could do just to go through the motions and to to try to to try to be gentle about anything was just, I think, more than I could, more than I could do.
Victoria Volk: That brings up anger for me in your book. You devote, like, a whole chapter to it, and the role of anger. And I’m curious what you would say to this, but what what did anger reveal to you about your grief?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think a lot of times anger was like the proof that I was not okay. You know, I’m an emotional person. I’d been an emotional person. I’m an anxious person. I’m not an angry person. Anchor was was new for me. And it and that made it really scary because you know, if I was feeling anxious or nervous, okay, I felt this before. I was feeling stat or lonely. Okay. I felt this before, but the anger. You know, everything else was a heightened emotion, the anger felt like a new emotion, scary emotion. And I couldn’t say, I I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know you know, how to channel it or or where to put it. And so I it made me feel very out of control and made me feel like I can’t like, pretend I’m okay because this is, like, not okay. And it would be very spud in, you know, as as anger can be.
And I just didn’t I didn’t expect it to be as intense as it was. I didn’t think it would be as hard to control as it was. And it was, you know, a part of grief that I didn’t know what to do with, really. And my brother was so not an angry person. He was very generous and loving and, like, a gentle giant, you know. And so anger wasn’t, you know, wasn’t in a motion I had really seen him demonstrate maybe ever. Even when I was like, I’m eight years younger, I spent plenty of time bothering him when he was in high school and annoying him. And he never got mad at me. He never got angry. And so it felt, you know, it felt bad. It felt kind of out of control, but it also felt like, out of character for me and out of character for him, you know? Like, I felt like he wouldn’t be this way. He wouldn’t be like this. Now, of course, he would. If someone else, you know, in our family had died instead of him, I’m sure he would have been just as angry as the rest of us. But it it felt very, like, a very unknown emotion to me. And so I I found it very, like, disconcerting and and kind of frightening.
Victoria Volk: What did you find that worked or helped you kind of soften the edges of that anger?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Time helped, but that’s, like, the worst possible answer. It’s, you know, one of the things that we have no control over. Letting myself be angry helped. You know, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, not trying to suppress it or, you know, ignore it. But, like, letting myself feel really pissed off. You know, I tell the story in the book of, like, breaking all of these dishes in my apartment. I tried that. It didn’t help as as much as I wanted. But there were definitely, like, yelling, screaming, like, yelling into a pillow, and just it was like it was like I had to get it out of my body in some way. And so crying yelling, not trying to you know, I would try to, like, hold it in and keep it together and be, you know, normal, but I thought it was normal. Even if I was just like home alone, which was so unnecessary. You know, if you can’t fall apart when you’re home alone, like, you have to be you have to let yourself do that. So I think, you know, when I let myself, like, yeah, I’m really angry. I am feeling really angry right now. And I’m just going to let myself feel really angry right now. And you know, maybe I’d go for a walk, maybe I’d scream into my pillow and eat nachos and watch arrested development, you know. But sometimes it was that, like, laughing would help, you know, I watched arrested development a lot. But I think, ultimately, it was just letting myself be angry and not trying to deny that. Was kind of ultimately, like, the thing that helped me deal with it the most.
Victoria Volk: Before Ben’s passing and growing up, what had been the conversation around grief and death and dying and you know, was it something that was openly talked about in your home or, you know, where you could express things and was it yeah. What what were the beliefs and the things that were kinda shared about grief and death and dying as you grew up.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. It was talked about, but I also think we were exceptionally fortunate. You know, my four grandparents all lived into their nineties. You know, the my my grandpa maybe my grandpa was eighty nine or ninety, but everyone else was mid nineties. But there were two the two years I was in grad school, I lost two grandparents, one uncle, and my brother. So it was kind of all at once. But, like, you know, I remember the first big loss was when my grandfather died, and that was in seventh grade. And, you know, I’m sure I’m sure we didn’t see all of the crying. I’m sure we didn’t see all of the emotion. But, like, I I my parents ex you know, they expressed emotion. They expressed grief. I remember in freshman year of high school, a dear friend of mine whose mom had grown up with my dad, and that was how I knew her. And her mom passed away. She had been stick with cancer for for a while. And I remember getting home from volleyball practice, and my dad was sitting on the front porch crying. And he told me, you know. And so it wasn’t it wasn’t a tabbing subject, but at the same time, we didn’t lose that many people, you know. And we didn’t lose them other than, you know, Laura, my friend’s mom, you know, my grandparents have lived very long, full lives, and it’s different, you know, to bury someone in their nineties versus someone in their thirties. And so by the time Ben died, you know, I had lost one friend and three of my grandparents. So grief existed. It was around, but but it was different. It was a different kind of grief than this was.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced great experiences since been past and since the book has been written and published and what have and what has been your approach differently now in those experience. If you’ve had them, I I don’t wanna assume you did. But
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. I mean, because my grandmother died shortly after Ben just about two months later.
Victoria Volk: One said it should’ve been me.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. And, you know, I think in that case, we were all still so deep in grief that it it didn’t feel distinct in its in its own way. And I have experienced a while since then. I have a good friend whose sister who I knew died. And and there have been some other losses, but none, fortunately, like none in my immediate family or or anything that close. I think I’ve learned a lot about supporting other people who are grieving and, you know, things to say and not to say and to just show up. But I I yeah. Fortunately, there has not been a loss at a cyclical incident. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: A large theme about your book is the lack of attention that’s given to the siblings after a sibling passes. And so I’d like you to share what that experience was for you, things that maybe were unhelpful that people said to you. Just advice or not even advice, but just reassurances and things that you would like to share with other siblings who may listen to this who have lost a sibling.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. Siblings are known as forgotten mourners. And when I read that, you know, in in some of the kind of academic literature and grief literature, I had this moment of, like, we don’t we all know this. Like, what are we gonna do about it? We’re like, we’re just referencing it and passing, you know, and I even asked some grief experts about it. And they were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s what they did. And it’s like, Why why didn’t anyone tell me this, you know? Why didn’t I know? And I think ultimately what it is is like people ask about other people and they don’t ask about you. So but you are the in. Right? So you’re the one that people can ask about how your parents are doing. And, you know, maybe how if it’s the sibling was an adult and was partnered, you know, how is the partner doing or how are the children doing? And I think that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with, you know, asking me how my parents are doing. The problem is that people would ask how your parents are doing and they don’t ask how you’re doing. So it’s not that, you know, you shouldn’t ask how someone’s parents are doing. It’s just first ask me how I’m doing. Then asks me how my parents are doing. Right? It’s not either or. But I’m not just the messenger. People will often ask the sibling questions that they would not ask a parent, you know, details on the cause of death, or things like that, you know, where a sibling might feel like a kind of a safe ally or, you know, someone who knows all of the dirty details, but isn’t the grieving parent so you can ask them. And all of those things are just I mean, you just shouldn’t ask. Right? If there’s a question that you wouldn’t ask the parent don’t ask the sibling. If you wouldn’t ask the spouse, don’t ask the sibling. Don’t put them in that position. Right? If someone wants to tell you, they’ll tell you. Or the advice I like to give is just like, do, like, a normal person does and just Google it. Right? Like, I have tried to Google people’s cause of death before. I am a very curious person. I’m a researcher. I have questions exactly. We all do it. Just just Google my brother. Right?
Victoria Volk: If you put more friends
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. Like, just do a little bit of Internet talking, and you might not you probably won’t find out all the boring details, but you’re gonna get a pretty good idea. And I think people, you know, they they ask the sibling as if the sibling is fine, but also the sibling has this insider knowledge. So, like, let’s get the info. And, you know, I think siblings also in many cases and this is not a dig, but I think siblings in many cases kind of diminish intentionally diminish their own grief. Because you are watching your parents, you know, completely fall apart, your parents have just lost a child. They are obviously not okay. Seeing them you know, seeing them grieve can be frightening, especially for, you know, younger people if you, you know, lose a sibling in childhood, you know, folks I’ve talked to who lost a sibling in childhood or early adolescence. Describe their parents’ grief as being frightening. And and so if you see your parents struggling that much, the last thing you wanna do is make it worse. You don’t want to make them worried. You don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to be a problem. They have enough on their plate. They’re dealing with enough. So you try to be as easy as you possibly can. I think, especially with children, again, that, like, children early adolescence goes to, like, I’m gonna be as easy as I can, so that no one has to worry about me, and I can just be the easy child. And you know, people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be that perfect surviving child and to live for for, you know, both of them and to never do anything wrong and never cause their parents any pain because they have seen their parent insignificant amount of pain and they don’t want to cause that. And I think in adult sibling loss, it looks more like just taking care of everything and not putting anything on your parents. Never wanting to be a burden. Never wanting to seem like you aren’t okay because you want them to believe that you and everything will be okay? And sometimes we’re very convincing. You know, sometimes if you do that enough and you do that for long enough, you can trick yourself into thinking that you’re fine. And, you know, the thing that I say a lot in the book, maybe too much. I wondered about this when I was reading the audiobook. If it gets better too much, is you can’t outrun Greek.
You might do a really good job, acting like you’re fine, and then five, ten years later, everyone else can talk about your sibling and laugh and reminisce and you can’t say they’re gay without crying. You know, you still feel raw, like like it was, you know, a month after they died. And that’s what it feels like, or it it manifest in other ways in, you know, on in harmful, like, self coping skills in in other ways that it manifests. And I think, ultimately, the thing that’s most difficult is, like, yes, you do wanna try to be kind of easy for your parents and you do want to, you know, no, they can’t handle your pain right now and they can’t take it on and they can’t support you the way that you want to be supported. All of those things are true, but you still need to try and support somewhere. And you still need to find an outlet. And it’s not gonna be your parents because they can’t help you. And they can’t be there for you in the way that you need someone to be there for you. But you have to find some way to face it and to deal with it. And conversely, you’re not really in a position to be your parents. Person or your parents best support. You know, you can support them in some ways, but, you know, there’s there’s a line where they can’t lean on you for everything because you do need to address your own grief and loss. And you can’t do that if you are the primary, you know, emotional caretaker of of your your parent. And so it’s a really difficult position because the people who are most affected and the people who know them the best and are probably grieving the most. Can’t be each other’s emotional support in every way, but you can sit together and you can cry together and you can talk about them together. You know, you just can’t you don’t have enough to give, you know. You you don’t have enough left to give to really be that for someone else, but you can still be together and you can still be experiencing it and grieving it together without having that kind of without trying to, like, put it on someone.
Victoria Volk: One of the as I was reading, like, I I read the book from the lens of as a child engraver who lost my father when I was eight. And so when you were talking about just the things what you were just saying, and there you we actually this is only the second time I came across I heard this word. Paratification. And what kind of Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. But there’s so many parallels between what I experience as a child grieving and what you described as a sibling grieving in the context of the relationship with the parents. And when one parent dies and the other is living, like there’s so many parallels of what that child experiences and what how you described it as a sibling with sibling loss. So I just wanna say, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, this book can bring up awarenesses and things for you that may not that you that kind of surprised you. So that was surprising to me how similar you described that and what my experience was. And you’ve mentioned this word parentification. Again, only second time I’ve heard this or seen this word, and it’s been, like, within a short amount of time. So I was, like, I’ve never heard this word. I’ve been doing I’ve been working with Grievers for, like, over four years. I’ve I you know, certified grief specialist, I’ve never heard this term. I’m like, so, but it’s when children are pushed into the parent role to be when it’s not developmentally appropriate, And you have a line in your book that says, I can’t take on your grief right now. And it’s only
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: that was a line from an interview. And this woman was saying that she you know, her mom was really relying on her calling her all hours the day or night whenever she is upset to talk to her and but she really had to set some boundaries. And I was fascinated by this because I was like, what did you say? I mean, admittedly, basically, my mom did not put that in my put me in that position, but I guarantee you. If she had, I would have latched on hook line and thinker. I would have answered every phone call. It would have completely drained me. But I would not have known how to push back or set a boundary. And I asked this woman at, oh, what did you say to her? And she was so it was like it came it seemed like it came so naturally to her. She said, I just told her I can’t take on your grief right now. And I remember scribbling it onto an index card, you know, and like highlighting it. Like, this means to go in This has a home in the book verbatim, you know, and it just yeah, I can’t take on your grief right now.
Victoria Volk: If only, if right? You know, and being a highly sensitive person, I’m like you, you know, deep feeler, helpers, healers, like, this is when you are and this is a thing, like, this is how, like, co dependency kind of, takes root and then just manifest. Right? In in in the dynamics of relationships when you have either a parent that had passed or, like, a sibling and then the relationship with the parent. Like, this is how this can, like, just kind of, really shift the dynamics of a relationship. You know? It Mhmm. It rocks everything. It, like, this rug is swept from underneath and all that you knew is no more. It completely changes everything and sometimes it brings out characteristics and things and people that because they don’t know what to do with what they’re feeling, you know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s like Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s gotta do something with it. Well, I’ll just call my child and my child can be my therapist, you know.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And my child understands and my child, you know, all of these things that are, you know I mean, probably not really true, but, like, you know, your child knew this person. They’re gonna answer your call. They’re, you know it just they’re gonna make you feel wanted or needed. Maybe, you know, I don’t know. But, yeah, it came up a lot. It came up in a lot of different people’s experiences. This, you know, just the authentication. You know, I think it’s the best word for it. It’s just making, putting the child into a role that is really developmentally appropriate for an adult and for a parent and not at all for a child. I think there’s also This is kind of related but broader. I think there’s this, like, larger cultural sentiment. They’re like, a lot of kids are growing up so fast and blah blah blah. But they’re not, you know, developmentally, biologically, they’re not. And so they’re exposed to more. They might know more. That doesn’t mean they’re equipped to handle it or that they’re equipped to handle these emotions. You know, our brains are not developing at a different speed. There’s just more input into it. And so it’s, I think, easy to think, to kind of fall into a trap of thinking that your child is an adult because they know big words and they can pair it back these things that they’ve seen on TikTok. But it doesn’t mean that their brain can actually understand or process or that you’re you know, that that they are emotionally prepared and developed and not to handle that stuff and and to handle the aftermath of it. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: I remind my kids all the time. Your frontal lobe is not developed until you’re like twenty five. So just kinda listen to me sometimes. I’ve been around the block longer than you. One thing I wanna get to and I actually just when I was reading this, I was like, I really wanna talk about this. And then I just recently saw one of your Instagram. You had done an interview and you talked about this very thing. And of course, I saw the title and I had to click on it and listen. But you were talking about the stages of grief. So in your book, it’s almost as if, like, like, you almost believed them. You believed in these things as a grief. Mhmm. And then fast forward to that instant that just recently listened to an interview. It’s like, oh, no. She doesn’t. There’s something else here. And so I actually had Ken Ross on my podcast, Elizabeth Kupala Ross’s son.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And but I wanna from your perspective, in your grief story, and what you were kind of experiencing at the time when you were writing the book? Because there was actually a little bit of a delay. Wasn’t that because there was it seemed like it was two years, like, towards the end. I can’t remember which chapter it was. It was, like, I’m thirteen years out. Yeah. But you’re actually fifteen years out.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I’m fifteen years. So the book I finished the book at this point. I submitted the manuscript a year and a half ago.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Because there was, like, a year where it was in production. And then and I was writing it for about after it sold until it was due you know, I was probably writing it for a year and a half and then it was in production for a year and a half and I started it even, you know, before I had told it. So it was really written over the course of a few years. I think I believed So, like, taking a step back, I think the context that we all miss is that the stages of grief were developed in the context of death and dying, not for griefers, but for the person who is dying. Right? No one ever explained that to me. I thought it was how we agreed. And it’s not. It it was never meant to be that. Right? And so I thought, okay, I go I’m supposed to go through these stages. And so if I’m not going through the stages or if I’m going through the stages out of order or whatever I’m doing this wrong, there was a lot of times where I thought I was doing it wrong. And I didn’t understand even really until I was doing the research for the book. I mean, when I was researching the book was a, I so I knew by the time I was writing the book, I knew that, like, there was something off with either me or the stages of grief because we didn’t really work together. And I kind of had chalked it up to, like, well, maybe the stages of grief are, like, true for some people, but maybe they’re just not universal. And then when I was writing it, it was when I learned that no, actually, they weren’t meant for grievers at all in the first place. So, you know, of course not, but also that now there’s, you know, a a lot of a lot of people who think that it’s actually harmful to say that they’re at these stages of agreement or the exact reason that I experience, which is that it makes people feel like they’re doing it wrong or that, you know, there’s only one way to grieve or something like that, which there just isn’t. And I think, you know, in the book, I spell out the in in a lot of detail, there are these fifteen different, you know, known and acknowledged types of grief. And for me, you know, part of why I did that, everything in the book was something that, like, I found helpful for myself personally. And I think In the case of those types of grief, I found that a lot more helpful than the stages of grief because there was a lot more room for interpretation. There’s a lot more kind of possible combinations and and ways to breathe and ways to change And to me, not only did those resonate a lot more with my own experience, but they also kind of helped debunk this myth that there is one way to grieve, and it is to go through these five stages. You know, because if there are fifteen different types of grief that you can experience in combination with each other and really an unlimited number of combinations with each other, then how could there be these five stages that everyone goes through. And and I felt like that looking at the types of group grief was really more helpful for reflecting on your own experience and giving everyone that kind of weight and validation that they’re griefs that that they’re not grieving wrong, but there is no wrong weight to grieve. There are perhaps harmful, you know, self harm ways to grieve and destructive ways to grieve. But it’s all Greek. You know, it’s not it’s not wrong.
Victoria Volk: Well, because when I was reading those fifteen, I was like, wow, this is a lot. And I I resonated with some, you know, more than others. And I just thought, you know what, though, I never even if someone would have shared those with me years ago. That is like, do you think we’re looking for a label to identify with? Like, in our grief? Like, we’re just looking, where do I belong? And where does my grief fit in the grand scheme of grief. But at the end of the day, none of those are helpful anyway, either because Mhmm. They’re not moving you through your grief. They’re not helping you process your grief. It’s just a way of the type of grief. So at the end grieve is grief. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Greece is great. I think the label is helpful because it makes you feel like you’re not alone and you’re not I don’t want to use the word crazy, but like, you are not you’re not doing it wrong, you’re not alone. Right? If if there are enough people who’ve experienced this thing, that they’ve come up with a name for it. Then I’m not the only one who has ever felt this way. And I think it’s that. It’s knowing that you are not alone, knowing that you are not losing your mind, knowing that you are not you know, reacting in a way that no one has ever reacted before or that you’re dover reacting or underreacting or whatever. I think the thing about a label is if there’s a label on something, then you are not the only one who has ever experienced this. There have been enough people who have experienced this that someone gave it a name, and that can be really validating. So, you know, and I think in some ways, it can help you figure out how to move through it because maybe you can figure out what the what the thing is to work on. But maybe then you work on it and you fall into one of the you know, like, it’s it’s it’s all gonna be a lifelong process. It’s not it’s never gonna be, like, fixed. But I do think especially for siblings who feel like their loss and their grief has been ignored and diminished to begin with. It’s really easy to feel like you’re overreacting or you’re doing this wrong or you’re not really supposed to be grieving or any of these other things. And so the label gives validation to the emotions you’re feeling even if it might not you know, give you a a path or like a step by step plan to follow, it makes you feel less alone and it makes you feel less like you’ve lost control of your mind.
Victoria Volk: Can we talk about forgiveness? Yes. Okay. So I am curious if you in your research ever heard of the book, the grief recovery handbook?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. Oh. Or maybe I’ve heard of it, but I don’t think I’ve read it.
Victoria Volk: K. Well, this is me going through the handbook. You know, I’m like a researcher too. Right? Like, I can do this myself. I can go through this process myself. Yeah. No. I became certified group specialist out as I went after I realized I couldn’t do it myself. But I wanna talk about forgiveness because I’m curious if that has shifted for you a little bit since the book has been out. Because when you talked about it in your book, it was it was as if it was it’s like a gift you give somebody else. But what I’ve learned is that forgiveness as a gift I give myself. Mhmm. So I’m curious how if that’s shifted for you or if maybe that’s a perspective that you hadn’t considered before?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I don’t think I struggled with forgiveness as much as a lot of the people that I interviewed and spoke with. You know, there were there were people for whom forgiveness, you know, often because of the cause of death or, you know, the things that led up to it. Forgiveness was a big ask. And forgiveness was something where hearing their story I I can’t help but always kind of imagine myself in that position. And there were some stories where I thought I don’t I don’t know if I would have gone to forgiveness or could have gone to forgiveness. And so I was but I found myself being extremely you know, I found the forgiveness that people gave their loved ones to be extremely admirable. You know? And I would think I don’t know if I could have forgiven, but the fact that you did is incredible to me and it feels like such a gift. And I think, yes, it’s a gift to the other person, but This is a terrible thing to say, but if you’ve read the book, you know, I I again have very little filter. They don’t need your forgiveness because they’re dead. Right? And I do think that even when people are dead, they’re around us and their spirits are around us and we can feel their presence. But I think that by the time you’re a spirit that’s around us, you also kind of don’t need our forgiveness anymore. Like, hopefully, they know what the purpose was, and they know the greater meaning, and they probably look at us and think, like, you’ll get it one day. You know? And so I do I think forgiveness is for us. I don’t think forgiveness is for them. You know, I don’t think that that my brother, wherever he is, is losing sleep or, you know, worried that we’re not gonna forgive him. I think he sees a much bigger picture than we do, but I think it’s easy for us to loosely over giving that forgiveness. So I do think that forgiveness is when it comes to grief, you know, forgiveness and life, something different. But when it comes to forgiving someone who has died, I think it is a gift that we give ourselves, not something that we do on their behalf.
Victoria Volk: Well, and the thing is is you’re never gonna get an apology. Right? They’re gone?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. You’re never gonna get an apology, and they’re never gonna be, like, thank you so much for forgiving me.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. So you’re sitting
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: out, like,
Victoria Volk: he’ll jail. You’re stuck in jail until yep. Can do that for yourself. Yeah. And that’s why it is yeah. So in this book is what it says, forgiveness is giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I like that. Can I hang up? Any memorized letter yesterday?
Victoria Volk: Any memorized resentment of past events will limit and restrict our ability to participate fully in life. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Forgiveness is an action. It’s not a feeling.
And it is possible. I’ve
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: done it. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Read this book. Definitely.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I will.
Victoria Volk: It I think it will give you and then reach out to me and let me know what your thoughts are. I’m I’m really curious.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well,
Victoria Volk: one of the interesting things I found in your book to key points that I wanna bring up is You talk about one of the hardest things about sibling loss is accepting that the departed sibling existed in only one phase or part of the surviving sibling’s life. And It’s like as if, like, you know that it’s like they’re frozen in time in this phase of your life and all the phases that are to come, they’re not a part of it and how they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And can fill the gaps. And that struck a chord with me because, you know, I’m nine years younger than my sister, and she’s already filling the gaps for me for many years. Like, you know, because she obviously remembers more than I do about certain things. And I loved how you were called Squaver kitten. You know, because, you know, my sister is Veronica, and I’m Victoria, and she’s she’s always been big v and I’m little v. So we kinda have that. But yeah. And I would like you to speak to that just that how that’s kind of a consistent theme that you saw in the research that you were doing and it may be your own experience. Howard Bauchner:
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. You know, I think going back to, you know, how we started this conversation and talking about siblings as our longest relationship. You know, they really biologically, they really should be our longest shared relationship. And that the your siblings, you know, are part of your life before any kind of adult partnership ornaments. And they continue in your life past the death of your parents. Traditionally. Right? Typically. And so you just they’re just always there. You always expect them to be there. Right? And you always expect, you know, you said your sister is nine years older than you. And so your sister should always be nine years older than you because she has always been nine years older than him. My brother was eight years older than me. So I’m now older than him.
Which is not the way the world should work. Right? Is
Victoria Volk: Wanting to skip your birthday in the book?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Yes. It’s like, you know, that Internet mean. Like, the math doesn’t matter. Like, my brother is eight years older than me, but I am older than him. Mhmm. And so you just expect that they will always be there because they always have been there and because that’s the birth order and that’s how that works. And so it’s hard to imagine there’s there’s I write about this in the book that there’s, like, a link between the part of our brain that we use for imagination and the part of our brain that we use for memory. So it’s hard to imagine something that, you don’t have a memory of it and and kind of vice versa. They’re they’re connected. And so I don’t have, you know, I didn’t have a memory of a world that he didn’t exist in. And so I couldn’t imagine a world that he didn’t exist in. It didn’t logically make sense to me. Because of the way our brains are wired, you know, there’s a very clear reason why that connection wasn’t made. And, you know, for me, I just always assumed my kids would know their uncles. And that, you know, my brother always wanted kids. I I assumed he would be a dad. Right? I didn’t think I would hit those milestones. Without him present, I didn’t think I would hit milestones that he never did. And it it really forces you to rewire, to literally rewire the synapses in your brain to understand the world in a different way. And siblings create their identities, you know, compared to and in opposition to each other. And so they’re such a central figure in our identity development and in who we are and then they’re gone. And it’s really hard to to center yourself again and just to figure out how everything now fits together with that key piece that’s missing. Again, even if it’s a bad relationship. Maybe your whole identity development has been based on the fact that no matter what you do not want to be like your sister, then you do everything different than your sister. Your sister is still a lynchpin in that identity development. So when she’s gone, when you’re not anchoring yourself on making sure you’re different than her, then who are you, and what do you do? You know, it’s hard to even imagine it. Because it’s just such an unknown world. And getting older than that is a real you know, I don’t know I don’t know if you were at that point with the loss of your father, but I’ve heard the same thing from people who’ve lost a parent that becoming older than your parent can feel very disorienting. You know?
Victoria Volk: It was actually, I’m just I’m yeah. He died when he was forty four. Mhmm. And for me like, turning forty four for me, I couldn’t experience that year without knowing or feeling like now imagine if I was given six months to live. You know what I mean? Like, putting myself in those shoes and imagining myself like my father and his experience and and he actually lived, like, sixteen months. But yeah. In turning forty five and being older. Yeah. It’s it’s those those dates. Right? Those milestones that they don’t stop even thirty plus years out. They don’t stop. Mhmm. And so this brings me it’s a good segue into because we’re kinda getting short on time, but I wanna bring this up because I think it’s so important. It’s a huge undercurrent in your book is music. Mhmm. How important music was to bend? How important it had been to your healing in through the throughout the book? You song lyrics have been huge. And then they get to the end of the book and you mention, and I was like, what? Indigo girls was his favorite band. I was Mhmm. Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: What? Mhmm. I You were in the military. That has to be rare. Right? That there are soldiers
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Favorite band to be Indigo girls.
Victoria Volk: I actually so I actually texted my a girlfriend of mine, your book, and I said I just finished this. And she just said at the end that her you know, that Indigo Girls was her brother’s favorite band, and I just I thought of her because she and I have spent spent so much time in high school even after. Like, we’re still friends, you know, driving cruising down the road, seeing it. Like, I had the Elko part, she had the Sipreno, like, I’ve seen them in concert. Like, I think I even have a gut guitar pick that they threw out. Yeah. So I was like, what? Like, I don’t know. Like, he would have been like I like, I feel like he’s like a kindred spirit some way. Just how you described him and talked about him and through the music and all that.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Can I tell you a really good Indigo Girl story that happened after the book?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So Indigo Girls were coming to New Haven, which is where I live. And this was last August or September, just about a year ago. And I bought tickets to go with three of my girlfriends. And one of the first concerts I had been to was Indigo Girls in New Haven, after this concert venue called The Palace. So It’s approaching, I get the edits back from the publisher and they are due the same day as the Indigo World concert. So now the Indigo World concert takes on even more weight because now I’m like, okay, I need to hit send on this. Before the concert. And this is gonna be our celebratory concert. So I get to edits in, you know, everyone’s excited. My girlfriend’s all everyone’s excited. And I’m telling them about this first Indigo Girls concert I went to, which my brother Sam was also at. We all we all went through Indigo Girls faces. And and I was telling them about the policy at her, and I I was like, I get I don’t think it even exists anymore. And we walk into this venue. And I was like, this place looks like the Palace, and I Google it, and it is the Palace Theater, just new management and they changed the name. So now I realized I’m at the same you know, venue where it’s one of my first concerts, Indigo growth, all of these things. And we’re stand I was like, I’m gonna get something from the merch table. We’re standing in line with the merch table, and I say to my friend, Dana, I wish there was something that was, like, a piece of merch that was like symbolic of finishing the book and, you know, getting the manuscript in. And she said, you mean like that t shirt that has a bookcase on it? And their swag was like band book and it was like the t shirt had these bookshelves on it and the front pocket looked like a library, hard pocket. So I get so I get the tshirt, walk in the whole set is these oversized bookshelves with books on it. And then they start playing and they start playing one of the songs that I have in their book that starts with that’s a newer song. I hadn’t heard it before, but it the first line of the song is oh, Annie. I am sorry for your grief. So they start playing that song, which is kind of a, like, b side, like, deep track. Right? I’m crying. And I said to my friends, if they do power of two next, I I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I’m I’m probably gonna faint. Churna, next step they pray the power of two. And I am just balling, you know. And it was just it was, like, I you know what I’m talking about, this is the book that, like, I I was a bit obtuse to signs for a while. I was not really open to them. And eventually, once I was, I kind of realized that my brother had been, like, beating me over the head with them. And after power of two, my friend was like, so can we all agree that this was a sign? I said, yes. Yes. I feel like he’s here. And it was just, like, amazing moment where I, you know, I felt like he was at the concert with us. I felt like he was at the concert with us and I felt like he kept being like, Annie, I’m here. I’m still here. Don’t write this off. I know you’re gonna write this off. Let me just give you a little bit more proof. This is me. You know, it looks like again and again and again and it was just amazing. It was just it was an incredible experience and it felt like very much a culmination of of everything I had been working on and, you know, everything that he had loved. And, yeah, it was just incredible.
Victoria Volk: I have chill bumps and chill bumps. It truth bumps, I’ll say. Yeah. If that’s not a sign, holy
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: grail. Exactly. By the end of
Victoria Volk: In the book, you talked about with the little blue flowers, and I was like, whoa. That’s that’s pretty good sign. You’ll just have to read the book my friends to read that one, but it you talk I I’m glad you went there about the continuing bonds because, you know, depending on how you grow up and what your beliefs are and, you know, maybe as a child, you weren’t taught that, hey, you can still talk to your loved one. You can still talk to your sibling. You can still talk to your dad or your mom or whomever passed away or your childhood friend, you know, we aren’t or your pet even. Right? Like, you children, you know, they completely they totally bond with their pets. We just aren’t taught that that that bond can continue. You know, I think as adults, we kind of pass our beliefs, whatever they are onto our kids. And so we don’t believe that. We believe when you die, you just die, you go with the grave, and there’s that’s all that there is. Then, of course, that’s what children will believe. And you you don’t rule that continuing bonds is is possible, and that can be really healing for people.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think growing up, I’m Jewish, and growing up, you know, I kind of was taught or believe that there’s a heaven, but there’s not a hell. Like, Jews don’t have a hell. And so I thought there was a heaven that everyone went to, but I didn’t think there was, like, any kind of connection between life on earth and whatever’s going on in heaven. So, like, when my grandfather died, when when people died, I imagined them, like, off in heaven, hanging out together, having a blast. But not that there was a back and forth or that there was a connection. And I I think I, you know, obviously, I eventually got there, but it was like I was kinda way there, you know, but I didn’t really I didn’t really think there was a relationship between the two so much, but now now I do.
Victoria Volk: Well, you need to talk about how that came about in the book too, and so people just have to read the book to find out. So just keep plugging the book in that way. But yeah. I and there’s like, there’s so much more I could talk about. But I know you have to get going, but I just wanna thank you for this work that you put out in the world. And again, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, if you’ve lost somebody else in your life, there’s something you can glean from this book. Again, I have more things that we could talk about, but I want you to give you an opportunity if you want to share something that you don’t feel you got to, that you feel is important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I’d love to this conversation and all of your questions, and I think You’re the only I think the biggest message is just that it’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to grieve your sibling. You know? It makes sense. That you’re grieving your sibling. And, you know, I want people to know that they are allowed to that they are that they don’t need to be stomach, and they don’t need to be okay. And it’s, you know, it’s okay to also breathe. And Yeah. I think that’s the takeaway.
Victoria Volk: What comes to my mind, I get this visual of, like, you know, when you kinda shrink down and you get small because the grief around you of other people is so big and you kinda just make yourself small. And it’s almost like you just kinda go like this. Just make room for it.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Make room Yes. Grieve. Yes. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you? Find your book? Can they connect with you all the things? I’ll put the links in the show notes, but I’ll have you share that as well.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So they can find the book, always the sibling, anywhere folks are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at annie Squaver, Ornstein, my name, or annie sorenstein dot com. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What are you working on now?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I don’t know. I really want to write something else and I’m trying to figure out what comes next. What’s the next idea? I have too many of them or perhaps not just not the right one. I don’t know. But working on figuring out what comes next.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I I have another I wrote a book too and a self-published though, and it’s I know I have another book in me, but it’s it hasn’t like like just landed. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Wake up one
Victoria Volk: day and you have a book title. I was like, oh, I got a book title.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And this one, you know, people ask, like, how was I able to do it? Because I have a full time job in kids. And it was like, well, I but I had to like, I I don’t know how I did it. I just knew I had to do it, and I I need that. I need to figure out, you know, what’s what’s the next one that I have to write. And I’m I’m excited to figure that out.
Victoria Volk: You made it a priority. And that’s the difference between I mean, everybody has twenty four hours in the day. It’s what you prioritize in those twenty four hours. I got up before five thirty every morning. That was just my writing. Exactly. Because that was happening to me. You make time for what’s important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. And I need to find that next thing that matters that much because that’s also when I would write my book, but it takes a lot for me to get up early. I hate it. I kept waiting to start enjoying it or to become a morning person and who’d get to happen. But clearly, if there’s a good enough reason, I will do it. So I am I am exploring possible reason to wake up early.
Victoria Volk: Well, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this book.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. Yeah. Anytime we have to be.
Victoria Volk: Thank you again. Well, stay connected online. I’m sure. So
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Alright. Sounds good.
Victoria Volk: Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today’s guest, Carolina Sotomayor, is a renowned fertility Reiki womb healer who shares how Reiki helped her conceive her son. We also dive deeper into her childhood stories and the emotional wounds that created what Carolina believes were the energetic blocks to conceiving.
Carolina’s Path to Healing 🧘♀️
- Personal Struggles: Initially struggling with conception despite no medical issues, Carolina turned to Reiki after suggestions from her grief therapist and a psychic.
- Journey Through Adversity: Her pregnancy was filled with challenges, including anxiety, surgeries, and postpartum depression. Reiki played a pivotal role in her recovery.
The Power of Energy Healing 💫
- Reiki Success Stories: With experience in four different lineages and over 100 successful “Reiki babies,” Carolina’s practice connects mothers-to-be with their spirit babies.
- Make A Baby Membership: Offers live sessions, guided meditations, prerecorded modules, and masterclasses for women on their fertility journeys.
Embracing Self-Care 🎗️
- Cultural Reflections: Highlights how societal conditioning often undervalues self-care leading to involuntary life pauses such as illnesses or accidents.
- Nonnegotiable Self-Care: Stresses make self-care nonnegotiable in releasing trapped emotions and preventing physical ailments and emotional blockages.
Overcoming Childhood Trauma 🛤️
- Tumultuous Upbringing: Raised by a single mother struggling with alcoholism and anger issues, she faced neglect from both parents post-divorce.
- Resilience & Boundaries: Shares insights on generational pain while emphasizing the importance of setting boundaries for emotional well-being.
Transformative Insights 🌺
- Recognizes that ignoring personal healing can lead to profound crises.
- Advocates for prioritizing oneself as central to breaking cycles of trauma.
Carolina’s experiences underscore the transformative power of confronting unresolved emotions. She passionately advocates recognizing self-worth while creating supportive communities worldwide to help women achieve their motherhood dreams.
Let this episode inspire you to embrace your journey toward healing and hope! 💖
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Healing Power of Reiki in Fertility and Personal Growth
In the latest episode of “Grieving Voices,” I delve into a profound conversation with Carolina Sotomayor, a fertility Reiki womb healer. Carolina’s journey from personal struggles to becoming a beacon of hope for women on their fertility journeys is nothing short of inspiring.
A Journey Rooted in Personal Experience
Carolina’s path to motherhood was fraught with challenges. Despite having no medical issues, she struggled to conceive. Her grief therapist suggested exploring Reiki or antidepressants due to unresolved sadness. This advice was echoed by a psychic who identified blockages in her throat and sacral plexus chakras.
After sustaining a concussion, Carolina decided to delve deeper into Reiki healing—a decision that changed her life forever. Shortly after beginning her practice, she conceived her son Ollie.
Overcoming Adversities Through Energy Healing
Carolina’s pregnancy brought its own set of complications—anxiety, medical surgeries, and ultimately a traumatic birth leading to Ollie’s NICU stay and severe postpartum anxiety and depression. It took 18 months for Carolina to recover fully through the combination of traditional therapy and Reiki healing.
Her experience profoundly transformed her understanding of energy healing’s potential, motivating her mission to help other women facing similar struggles.
The Cultural Undervaluation of Self-Care
One significant insight Carolina shares is the cultural undervaluation of self-care. She emphasizes how ignoring personal healing can lead to involuntary pauses like illnesses or accidents that force us to slow down and address our unresolved emotions.
Carolina recounts “God smack moments” where life forced her into reflection—moments crucial for releasing trapped emotions that could otherwise manifest as physical ailments or emotional blockages hindering fertility.
Societal Conditioning Against Emotional Expression
The discussion also touches upon societal conditioning discouraging emotional expression. Unresolved grief often manifests physically if not addressed properly—a point where practices like Reiki become invaluable in releasing these pent-up emotions.
Breaking Cycles Through Generational Pain
Raised by an alcoholic single mother amidst emotional neglect compounded by an abusive father post-divorce shaped much of Carolina’s resilience today. Through extensive therapy combined with support systems including friends & family alongside reiki practices allowed overcoming such adversities while setting healthy boundaries ensuring better mental health well-being now being passed onto future generations within families breaking cycles trauma altogether!
Practical Applications And Recommendations:
1) Prioritize Self-Care: Make time every day dedicated solely towards yourself whether it be meditation yoga etc., ensuring overall wellness both mentally physically spiritually alike! 2) Explore Alternative Therapies: Consider incorporating alternative therapies such as reiki acupuncture aromatherapy among others aiding holistic approaches addressing root causes rather than just symptoms alone! 3) Set Healthy Boundaries: Learn importance saying ‘no’ when necessary avoiding burnout maintaining healthier relationships around you too!
By sharing stories like Carolinas’, we hope inspire readers take proactive steps nurturing themselves fostering balanced lives benefiting everyone involved! For more insights connect directly via Instagram handle @thecarolinasotomayor website www.carolinasotomayor.com joining community supporting each other throughout various stages life’s beautiful yet challenging journey together!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Carolina Sotomayor. She is a fertility, rapey, womb healer, serving women who are trying to conceive. She’s the founder of Make A Baby membership, a monthly membership providing monthly live Reiki healing Zoom calls, Reiki guided meditations, prerecorded healing modules and master classes. Carolina has personally coached and helped women all over the world with over a hundred Reiki Babies into bringing over a hundred Reiki Babies into the world. She has a tune to four different lineages of Reiki and has a proven medium connecting mom to their spirit babies. After conceiving her own son with Reiki, Carolina has been on a mission to help women conceive with energy healing and heal through pregnancy and postpartum. I’m so excited to have you here because this is a unique line of work. And reiki isn’t unique, but I love how you’ve adapted it and have wielded its power for good and positive in your own life, but also in the lives of other So thank you for the work that you’re doing, bringing motherhood and parenthood to over a hundred people now.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s been exciting. Thank you so much for having me. I it was I believe in divine timing, intervention happening. And for me, Reiki was when it was happening to me and offered to me, I didn’t know it would end up here. So for me, I was struggling to conceive, and I was a newly wed, very much a struggling newly wed, married to the best man I had ever known and still heavily married too.
But we were not getting pregnant. There was nothing wrong with me. They said, you’re just really sad. So I started grief therapy. Still not getting pregnant.
And then I plateaued in my healing journey with her, and she’s like, you need to either do Reiki or get on an anti antidepressant because I was still the sad girl. Also, at that same time, I had fallen off my horse and it was put on medical leave. That conversation of, like, you need to do reiki or get try antidepressants because the trauma wasn’t leaving my body. I was still sad after her going for her for over a year and a half. Sometimes twice a week, it was definitely weekly. And essentially, she wanted me to get reiki because one I was introducing, I was like, I I’m purifying my body and birth control, like, I don’t wanna put anything else on my body. And that’s just a personal decision. I support anyone that if you do what’s best for you and your medical team. So that same week because I had suffered a concussion from falling off my horse. I went to my favorite psychic town where I was taking workshops, and she had offered she’s I she’s, like, your throat and your sacral plexus shockers are blocked. You need Reiki. You don’t need any crystals for your concussion. And it’s, like, I don’t know. I’m not ready yet, but then this then the therapist that same week had recommended and they’re two separate sources, not related to each other. So I was like, wait a minute. What is this? So I went with because I was still, like, I was still very medically inclined at that point. And I went and got Reiki the next week. And then the next month, we were testing positive with our son, Oli, who’s now almost eight. He’s seven. Second grader. And I continued to get ricky through my pregnancy, and it helped me with my anxiety. I had prenatal anxiety. I had my gallbladder removed. I had totaled my car.
And Henry Gold Butter removed within a week of each other. Ollie, very much, is a miracle baby, had a really traumatic birth, because of the birth trauma and just the way that the hospital handled everything. Allie ended up with NICU. I had a nasty infection. Allie had an infection from a prolonged labor. My Reiki master sent me Reiki during that time. My postpartum was very tumultuous with just a lot of irrational thoughts, and I just got diagnosed with severe PPA and PPD, which is postpartum depression and anxiety. And through by postpartum, I really leaned into the talk therapy and the Reiki as a combination. And it took me about eighteen months to fully come out of it, but because of the consistent support, of both together. That helps me come out of the darkness is what I like to say.
It allowed me to function. I stayed home with him for four months. I had six months postpartum. I got certified in Reiki one and two, Levels one and two, which gives you the ability to give yourself Reiki and others. And I started to give Reiki to myself and my son. He suffered from chronic ear infections. I suffered I had mastitis several several times, so I would give Reiki to myself, and I would in support of my breast milk supply because it’s all heart chakra based. And I was still I I became sad again. I was sad because I had not gotten the birth that I wanted to. We knew we only had one child and I had lost mine shot. I was grieving the loss of that positive birth and everything I had worked for. And when people say, well, you just have a healthy baby. Wasn’t it worth it? I was like, no. That’s that’s bullshit.
Like, I I got this is a one time, right of passage moments for a woman. And I did not get what I had painted or I had written down in my size nine font birth plan, and my birth plan had gone sideways. So I had spent I spent a big majority of my time reliving my birth in that eighteen months and that’s what plagued me and my darkness. And I was fine taking care of baby. I was happy to climb as long as I was with him, but I’d just be these moments of things that went wrong with my birth that plagued me. And you know, ups like, just certain things that were very violent in my birth that were unexpected and just really shook me. And it took me a long time to come out of, but it was because of the ragey that I learned how to heal myself I learned about energetics truly in my postpartum of, like, things that erupted from my childhood that because I was so sleep deprived and I was so tired and I was just really at my most raw, your mind can can sometimes unlock things that you were not prepared to face again or remember or remember even that they occurred at all the first time. So in my postpartum, I felt like my childhood abuse and my trauma has just kind of exploded. And my wound healing really started was as the postpartum. I had an abortion in my twenties.
I had been raped in my twenties. My and that really plagued a lot with my birth trauma and combined was really, really messy and really dark along with a lot of, like, worth issues in my dad’s death, like, really missing him and really trying to, like, have this baby and my favorite person died. And I really wish he was here, the one person that I was so close to. How can I exist in a world where I have this beautiful baby and I don’t have him to share it with? Was a lot.
But with Ricky and being able to heal myself, it was more about moment by moment as those things came up because it didn’t all happen at once. It was riding the wave and understanding that It’s okay to feel what you feel, but it’s about releasing it and understanding, okay, what do I need to do to get back to what’s really important and putting boundaries around my grief I learned that was there there’s it’s okay for me to put a pause on things so I can still be a working mom and be present or I need to be present, but then also create space. In time where I get to feel those feelings, honor them, and release them because I was still working a manufacturing job. I was in pharmaceutical manufacturing. It was a very demanding job, breastfeeding, pumping, and taking him picking up up from day care. And that was a very real thing, breadwinner of the family. I still had to be a person, so that was the main thing is that I would Reiki would allow me to be grounded enough to function but also I could go deeper when I needed to. And that’s really the gist of it, you know, that was long.
Victoria Volk: What do you say to those people listening that say, well, I don’t have time. I don’t have time. To for energy healing work. We are in this Western society that’s going to go go go. So, I I mean, I know the answer. Like, we just have to make our self care non negotiable, but how did you how did you do that? Like, what did that look like? Like, what how did you decide
Carolina Sotomayor: on that? I have chills. It’s very easy. Either you make the time and you prioritize yourself or whatever you believe in will make you life will make it happen for you or the universe or God whatever is your belief. There was a term I once heard and say, God’s smack God will smack you if you don’t do it first.
Like, he’ll show you signs of what you need to do, or the universe will send you hints. If you don’t take care of it yourself, they’ll put you in an adult time out is what I was calling it. When I fell off my horse, that was the first time I was forced physically to sit still in my entire life. I did not know it at the time, but I was in fight or flight. And it was the first time that I had to sit still. Couldn’t be on a phone. I couldn’t drive. I had depth of perception, like, with my vision, like, my foot would miss the curb because of my concussion. I had fell in a ditch off my horse and the con and I had memory problems. So I couldn’t drive can be in the iPad, I couldn’t read, my eyes couldn’t focus on a page, I would get dizzy, and I couldn’t remember the the numbers. They would say, okay, here’s a series of numbers, say them backwards, and I couldn’t do it. So I was out of work for eight weeks. And that is when Ricky was introduced to me. And I wasn’t I lived in a one floor apartment, so it was very safe for me. But basically, I just sat there and I would welcome anyone that would come and sit with me I couldn’t do anything else, but often the time people were busy, so it’s during that eight weeks that I got to sit alone with myself and learn to really be okay with that because there’s really nothing else to do.
And that was my opinion, god saying, hey, you’ve been running and you can’t run away from your feelings anymore. Your dad died. Your horse died. And you’re married. What if you wanna have a baby, you need to fill your stuff. And that was the first time that I was open to really making a shift of when she had the conversation with me. And the Ricky was offered to me. And then I had the Ricky session and I and my husband, he had to drive me and pick me up. And I came out, I felt like I was floating. I had remembered I was like, it was the first time that I had a huge shift in my energy. I felt like this fifty pound boulder ever since my dad had died had been lifted from my chest. And that was something that changed for me. So for me, it’s my opinion, what I tell my clients is pay attention to the patterns and the signs. Either take care of it yourself or something will happen where it will cause you to. And sometimes that looks different from me. I was able to recover from my concussion and I went back to work and I went back to work and I was pregnant. Mhmm. So or some people get sick. Physical illness is a manifestation of something of a stuck emotion in your body. And we’re not we are conditioned to stuff our emotions and not release them. Our emotions last for ninety seconds, but we have to be consciously trained? Like, we have to be trained? We have to consciously be mindful of do I wanna keep this? Am I ready to release this? Or are we gonna release it? And I think that I mean, that’s something I’m constantly reminding my son up. I’m like, okay. Breath work. We’re gonna release this. Are you ready to release it? No, I’m still mad. Okay. Let’s hold on to it a little bit longer. Check-in, are you ready to release this? And like, this is me breaking that cycle with him. You don’t have to hold on to it. So that prevents disease and him. That prevents you know, infertility issues in him and them getting stuck in his home because men have wounds too. And our emotions can get stored anywhere in our body, but the most commonly concentrated a concentrated area are our wounds is that particular chakra. And infertility is just a really stuffed emotional reservoir that needs to be released is what I find. So either take care of it yourself or I think you will be made too. I do know that from all of my work, there is a pattern. When people say, oh, I just don’t have time to heal, obviously, it’s not a priority for them. Well, we have to look at a couple of things why it’s not. Either they’re putting other people before themselves or they’re too scared to do it at the moment.
Both both are that is just a valid Those are things that people do. However, I ask you is who is more important than you? And who is going to save you when you do have that life moment when you’re in hospital or you fall off your horse? Or you have that car crash or you are whatever. He was going to fix your body in that moment. They might be able to bring you soup. They might be able to take your kids to the park. They might be able to do some grocery shopping for you to help you out a little bit. But you are the most important person in your life, and I really believe that in your relationship with yourself, and it and when people don’t prioritize themselves, it’s a lack of worthiness. For me? it is the root causes? Like, you don’t feel worthy to prioritize yourself or they have to prove or earn their worthiness to put themselves for, like so if they do need to have a break or they need to have energy healing, well, I have to do this entire to do list before I actually earn that time out or that that relief. And for me is that is that’s an indicative thing of, like, you learned something in your childhood where you had to earn, rest. You had to earn healing, and that is not correct. I will battle anyone for that.
Healing is your birthright. Rest is your birthright. You are born worthy of being happy and your life is not meant to suffer. Will we suffer? Yes. But it does and how we move through that is really a choice in my opinion. So for me is, like, where where are you prior who are you prioritizing? And for me as a mom I had to learn because I burnt myself several times out is the more that I put myself first and I am pouring from a full cup, the happier my son is the better my marriage is, the happier my partner is, the calmer and more emotionally regulated my house is. Because for us, I’m the heartbeat of the house. So if I’m on if I’m dysregulated, if I’m angry, if I’m super upset, if I’m depressed, all shit’s going haywire.
So that’s that’s my when I put it in non frame, it’s, like, everyone else is gonna thrive when you thrive. When you are and when they see you actively caring for yourself and prioritizing yourself, that is teaching them that they need to do the same. Like, my little says, I need a loan time. I I’ve had enough of you. I need I need a loan time, please. And he goes in his room or he goes in his reading corner. Legit, bro, that’s good. Like, that is, like, that’s generational breaking actively. So I it’s not just, like, you’re not gonna get rewarded for burning yourself out or putting yourself last. Actually, you’re going to condition people to know that’s how you want to be treated.
Victoria Volk: And then you’ll end up in the hospital or in an accident or
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. All of these things. That’s just my lived life experience. I’m forty one, so I still think I’m twenty. But I mean, I’ve I’ve lived a little at this point and seen a lot and and human design, if you’re into that, I’m a projector.
So I am to guide. But as a healer, regardless of your human design projector or not, as a healer, and you take on that occupation or that hat in a in a lifetime, you have to live through some things so that you can be at least one or two steps ahead to provide enough wisdom or insight for the people that are going to go through the same things you did. Which means you have to live, fall down, crash, and burn, have your heart broken. You stab it a couple of times emotionally. Right.
I’m a three five.
Victoria Volk: Three five. That was my second that was my second. I’m a
Carolina Sotomayor: three five point. I teach human design in my membership to use to help manifest better for your babies. Okay. So Yeah. It’s pretty simple.
It’s just the arrow at the top. It’s the point left or point right. And then looking at your defined centers, but that’s how I think about it. It’s like it’s like the what’s asked, like, okay. So I don’t have time, but where are you putting your time?
As an entrepreneur, I over the past year, I have looked at sales, I’ve looked at revenue and things like that. And I was, like, where am I really spent? Where am I why do I, you know, have time to do the things that do make money? I had identified the things that didn’t make money. And what was I doing?
I had to perform an audit. I the things that don’t make me money are not important. The things that do make me money and create impact on my audience, those are the things I’m gonna spend eighty percent of my time on. The other things don’t matter. They don’t even I don’t even do them anymore.
So where are you spending your time? Who’s consuming it? And how much of it do you have left over as a current state? And why are these people more important than you and your well-being?
Victoria Volk: I love that because energy is currency. Right? Is oh, yes. And I
Carolina Sotomayor: like to put it as the word as attention. Who has your attention?
Victoria Volk: Do a self audit. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Self audit. Do an inventory. It’ll be a surprise.
Victoria Volk: I just wanna touch on too something that you said that, you know, how physical things manifest. And that is completely true. Like, in the work that I do is in grief recovery and what I’ve learned about grief and my own story and the story Right. People that I’ve been in my podcast and that I’ve worked with. When we look at our lives like, okay, fender benders, blowing up horse, accidents, missteps, if you’re kind of known to be the clumsy person or and physical manifestations, right, migraines or body pain that has no explanation, like, fibromyalgia, you know, things like this.
Like, this is grief. Friends. This is grief. What is it that you are holding on to? That you are unwilling to let go of?
Or that your body is screaming to you? To be energetically released. And so you touched on it growing up, but you what can we dive deeper into what you said?
Carolina Sotomayor: Up in book, go for it. I love having these deep conversations.
Victoria Volk: So growing up, you haven’t mentioned your mom
Carolina Sotomayor: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And sometimes the mother wounds. Can you attach to the mom? Can you elaborate what your childhood was like,
Carolina Sotomayor: oh, sure. It’s funny. We talk about the ones that are ruined a lot in fertility, father wound too. Mhmm. I have recently put a lot of effort into my mother wound because I spent a lot of, like, the past decade. Telling my father wouldn’t. My childhood was I was it was very tumultuous. It was very chaotic. Full of different people. My parents got separated when my dad gave my mom an ultimatum and he didn’t want a third child. I was the third child. She chose to keep me and they got divorced. Formally when I was eleven months old and she moved from Florida to Pennsylvania and she was a single mom that eventually just stopped to stopped growing at that point. Emotionally. And from what I have learned from my healing with a lot of therapy, hypnosis, and a shaman, Anne Rieke is my mom was ill equipped to be a single mom of three children, that had had a magnitude of issues individually. And she is an active functioning alcoholic with anger issues and the most unhealed person I’ve ever met but I have learned that and what I have grown to deeply appreciate and love for her is she’s the ultimate survivor. And what I have identified her life purpose was to endure and survive so that I could launch from there. And appreciating and seeing her as a person has allowed me to see her more as my mom instead of I used to call her I won’t share her name, but I used to call her by her first name. And that was because it was easier for me to just use that. It was really hard because of all of the things that had been done said and it was really difficult for me to use the word mom. So I would call her by her first name. She actually kind of coming to visit next week, but my childhood was with her and then my brother and sister both My brother graduated high school, went into the military, my sister decided to go in to live with my dad at age fourteen, and I was young, I was kindergarten, first grade when all this happened, and they dipped. And I was alone. So I was her I was an only child from early elementary age. And then I left her at age fifteen to Intellate with my dad.
And I graduated high school and did college in Florida, and then I moved to Nebraska when I was in my when I was twenty nine. So that’s pretty much my span. But when I went from a single mom household to a single dad, it was not without abuse. My dad never hit me, but I didn’t know what an emotional abuse was or mental abuse or or financial abuse. I just didn’t know any of those things.
Until probably I got married, and I started with a different therapist. And I didn’t know he was a narcissist. But he was I felt safe with him because he didn’t he didn’t hit me. So I identified abuse as physical abuse, as like he didn’t hit me. Oh, this is what safety is. At least it’s calmer. He doesn’t yell. But it it was it was very controlling. He was very he would wait in my parking lot. I’d soccer practice.
He would wait during prom. He drove me there waiting in the hotel parking lot, picked me up. It was very there was no independence. Wanted to pick my college classes for a semester, I mean, just very controlling Latino dad but, like, beyond normal. So I went from being abused and trying to avoid conflict and being trying to be perfect straight a student to you have to be perfect straight a student.
This is what you have to live up to. This is what your sister did. You’re the only child here in the house again, and he hadn’t been a parent for a long time because my sister had been out of the house. My sister and my brother are, like, ten and twelve years older than me. And and that is really significant for me because I it was it was again feeling unwanted, hearing the story of, like, you’ve never been wanted by him.
I chose to keep you, but then you’re not, like, very loving or wanted, and then going to, well, you’re only here because there is nowhere else to put you. And you and your mom, obviously, you’re not getting along. That was an understatement. So it was a lot to work through and feel very much a man abandoned and neglected emotionally. Even physically, we run food stamps. My mom, we were the when I live with my mom, we were the family that went to the pantry, and I remember getting, like, this large thing of baloney. And cheese. And I learned to slice the baloney at a really young age to make baloney sandwiches. I learned how to make my own, like I knew how to use the stove and She was gone a lot. She we lived in a trailer on some land next to her sister and her husband. And her husband was really nice, but he made it very clear that, you know, we were visitors. Perfect. And we lived there from one to fifteen. But you I could you I could kick you guys out at any time. So there was not an there was not a strong feeling of being wanted anywhere. And that was something I really struggled when it affected my self esteem. I felt very ugly, got bullied a lot. It was not a very easy time in my life for sure. But what I do take away from all of those things was what not to do. I knew for a long time, like, during my teenage years, early twenties.
I was like, I don’t wanna be a parent. I don’t wanna get married. But then I matured. I healed. I got into the European college. I took advantage of those services. And and I just learned, like, some of the shit that happened to me was really fucked up. And it wasn’t my fault because I got blamed for everything. This is the youngest. You’re the one who broke up the family and that’s a huge reason like I just don’t get along with my siblings. They’re both toxic. They think I’m toxic and that’s okay. You know, I haven’t seen them since we settled my dad’s estate and that’s okay. I wish them well and I didn’t used to. I wish them well. I don’t know anything about their lives. They never been to my wedding. They didn’t know anything about my husband or his son. And that’s okay. Like, I have peace in neutrality about that decision. I am now I’m not emotionally charged where I’m like, I hate you. No. Go do you and I appreciate you. Balnges are set for a reason. You don’t want me.
I don’t want you. It is for valid reasons. I feel like they find me threatening because I still talk to my mom, and they are no contact with her. And they blame her for a lot. But they had very different life experiences. They grew up with them as a married couple with two parents in a home for part of their lives. I have no memory of them being married. I have no memory or life experiences other than two people who created a trial that they accidentally made and they both equally hated each other. My brother and sister grew up in a home where My mom was a state home mom a state home mom and they had barbecues with my grandpa and visits with with my dad’s parents from Ecuador and my mom cooking and birthday parties in the backyard. I mean, it was the same house I lived in with him, but very different life experiences, and I respect that. So they have a very different emotional feeling in regard for my mom, but I did learn about emotional availability because of my siblings. I learned what it’s like to not be emotionally available to people And I was like, well, that’s exactly what I mean. I don’t want to be shut off from people. I want to be united with people. So that was a key thing that I learned at a very young age was I want to be emotionally available. I want to be vulnerable. I want to be accessible so I can connect with people. I don’t want to feel cold. And that’s essentially what I took away from that. But I I think that It was not it was not an easy childhood that’s for sure.
Victoria Volk: And this is a perfect example of how growing up in the same home. You have a very different perspective and a different lens of how you look at life and Mhmm. Because all relationships are unique, even if you would have all grown up in the at the same in the same time frame, in the same home, you still would have had your own perspectives, your own experiences because your relationships would have been unique. The word that comes up for me in as I was hearing you share was was shame.
Carolina Sotomayor: A lot of shame. I’d still something I struggle with. I feel I feel like I apologize a lot or So there’s guilt and shame still, like, shame that I went through the shame that I I don’t talk to them. That’s still something I have not fully healed or even, like, that’s a new one for me. I just discovered that probably.
I saw a TikTok maybe eight months ago, less than a year ago, and it was like, shame. I was like, that’s an emotion I haven’t danced with yet.
Victoria Volk: And it’s insidious.
Carolina Sotomayor: Right. So it is that would be probably next year of healing that I would need to do, but definitely a lot of shame because there was a lot of embarrassment. There was a lot of things that shouldn’t have happened. That did happen and that we’re real and that we’re hidden. A lot of secrets
Victoria Volk: and secrets really are what keep people separate. Barry, thank you for sharing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Always welcome.
Victoria Volk: And all of that being said, with your father passing and your siblings kind of creating this unpleasant environment because you said they sued the estate. Mhmm. At the same time you’re trying to conceive a child, would you agree? And what would you say to or add to this idea that grief is often like, what blocks us from greatness in our lives.
Carolina Sotomayor: A hundred percent grief was the number one thing that blocked me from conceiving. And once I started to feel safe, after he had passed is what was the result of that one rapey session? I was able to conceive because what I associated my dad with at that point in my life, not anymore. But at that point, I had related safety with my dad because there was an abandonment wound there from him and little girls want their daddy’s for particularly for me, I wanted to be a daddy’s girl. And once we reconnected, I had to work really hard to keep his attention. And once he died, I was like, I don’t have that safety anymore. Because when I did have his attention and when we were good and we were in speaking terms, I felt safe. I felt whole. I felt like I had everything I needed. And then and I feel like death is very bizarre. Like, a person that would call me every day or would pick up every day and send me an email and the emails were dear little girl. I stopped. And it was so weird because the people I had lost prior to that, they didn’t have consistent communication. They weren’t active in my life the way my father was up till his death. And having to write the check for his cremation, it was all very surreal. Like, it’s just so weird that they go from existing and talking to, like, they weren’t here at all, except some things. So
Victoria Volk: was it unexpected?
Carolina Sotomayor: He had colon cancer and he had stopped going to the doctor. He had a large mass on the side of his belly and never would go to the doctor. So what happened was I was in Nebraska. He was in Florida. He took a taxi to the hospital, checked himself into the emergency room. They admitted him. I got an accidental call. From a person, from his cell phone, and she was speaking Spanish. And I said, who is this? I was working in my cubicle. And the lady said, this is your dad’s nurse. He’s in the hospital. And then she hung up. And then my dad called back and I was like, my dad had never been with another woman since my mom. So I was like, who is this? I mean, it was a very strange occurrence. Like, my dad was always alone or he was like, he had never been with another person. So for another person to have possession or even to speak on his cell phone was very alarming. So And he goes, I’m fine. I’m like, where are you? He goes, I’m fine. I was like, where are you? And he and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I’m like, tell me everything. And it took a couple of phone calls of me harassing because he hung up on me. And I called back, and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I flew out the next morning, and he was very sick. And I had seen him two months prior, and I he did not look well. And he said, we should go to the doctor. You know, He was a very independent, strong minded person that could not be influenced by anyone.
So he slowly declined over the next three weeks from there. He got a colonoscopy in it. The colon cancer hadn’t metastatized to his liver. And all over in it, and he passed away. He went into hospice. And I was in a cart next to him the night he had passed. The ladies came in at six AM to check on him. I sat up, and then they said he’s taking his last breath. And then that was it. And it was, like, six AM on April sixth. My god to stay in it was a Catholic hospital. It was really beautiful. And I said, that’s that’s all he wanted was for me, like, he had stopped talking, but he knew. He’s like, I know this is gonna happen. He’s like, I just want us to be in a space where we can be together. He didn’t want me staying in a hotel. I’ve been seeing him with friends in our hotel, and he goes, I just want you with me. He’s so worried about money. And I was, like, just stay with me. And I was, like, okay.
But it took me a while to get him in out of the hospital into a private hospice. So we were able to do that the last two days, but the the last night, I was able to finally get a caught and I sat next to him and I sat next to his bed and it was so nice. And I just remember them coming in, and it was, like, so fast. And I just set up, and I was, like, stunned. And I just started making phone calls at that point.
This really, like, texted my brother. He’s like, you need to come. He’s gone. And then, like, texting, like, my I call her my fairy godmother, like, she used to be my old boss. And I was like, Rosa, you need to come. And my friends my best friend’s dad was incredible support. So he was like, I need to come. And they came and then I had to handle the cremation and just having people that didn’t have to be there that were just really looking out for me because as a thirty year old, I didn’t know what to do. No one tells you, like, my best friend’s dad, he taught me how to drive. And he was like, come with me. You can’t see him be bagged. Come with me. We’re gonna go we’re gonna go to another four. I was like, I just need to be with him. I need to be with him to the end. He goes, he’s already gone. You can’t unsee those things. And this is not your place. He this I’m being your dad. And I’m just like,
Victoria Volk: And I
Carolina Sotomayor: was like, okay. Because nobody you can’t unsee those things. Like, I had changed his diaper and I had fed him and I was making all of his phone calls and all of his demands and running all of his errands during the time that he was awake. And it was very messy and it was very angry. I’m so grateful that I didn’t see that because, like, I feel like during those moments, I was so blessed by these two caring people who were really looking out for me. So when there was so much against me with my siblings and I was a naive, thirty year old who was just trying to take care of her dad who had no idea what the hell she was doing. So I think a
Victoria Volk: lot of this experience taught you how you needed to be loved.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah. It is a huge reason why it’s a huge reason of why I live my life now. Like, I live intentionally slower. We live a very simple life because it allows us to have a more regulated nervous system. When I’m more when your my nervous system is more regulated, I have more capacity or emotions and to be careful and mindful of how I want to love myself and others. Because that takes effort because it’s very easy for me to default to angry, controlling, yelling. I think it takes more effort to not do those things when you are ingrained DNA coded trauma lived to resist those responses until those responses are no longer an urge or the reactiveness. It I may spend the rest of my life resisting those urges or even, like, you know, hitting, wanting to hit. You know, I that not like, because I was hit. Like, that’s you don’t know until you’re in those situations, like, when you’re treated, you take so much effort to undo. And because my husband comes from such a different background, it’s a lot of conversation. So I have learned, like, what are my triggers? And what that allows me? What do I need to stay in this embodiment of a life that I want? What are the absolute non negotiables that I must have to exist so that I can love myself. I can live in a state of being. And it’s taken a lot of, like, trial and error and a lot of discussions and a lot of commitment to I am worth this. I am worth the effort. So it’s not just like, I’m gonna choose to be happy. I’m gonna choose not gonna be angry. No. It’s also like decluttering their house and making sure their systems and that I have a ritual in place. Like, so when I am triggered, I we have safe words and safe words are, you know, for a place where my kiddo has one and that that’s, like, and immediate. Okay. Let’s go have a talk. Do you wanna leave? And it’s just, like and then it’s, like, they’re my husband and I have a say, there’s the reason why there’s two of us. I’m, like, I can’t type out. I’m tapped out. And they’re, like, we have words for that to, like so it’s just an immediate, like, attention grabber and and it’s because I love myself enough that I don’t have to suffer and I don’t have to endure. And that I can my life can be full of love and I can’t give my son that different life.
Victoria Volk: What I hear you saying is that communication
Carolina Sotomayor: is huge. We overcommunicate We I think over communication in our marriage has been very good. Very It’s been really helpful. I think I’ve undiagnosed ADHD. So he reminds me of a lot of things we put things in a family calendar. I think that active listening and over communication has been really healing too because it’s being because I feel like that means you can be feel seen, heard, appreciated, valued. When I feel hurt, I feel safe. It creates a lot of peace knowing what to expect when he’s gonna go into the office or when I need to boot pick up or when he has flag football or soccer or when I’m gonna be doing a Ricky call. I have find a lot of safety in my marriage, and it’s been really I think when I think if I have helped lived over many lifetimes, it’s probably one of the greatest things that’s ever happened to me.
Victoria Volk: I’m happy for you.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you. He is he’s made me feel safe at the very beginning of her marriage. I think the first thing was I felt safe to be myself fully with him and that’s been the launching pad from there.
Victoria Volk: And that’s a great mention too. And I think, you know, aside from all of the things you just said about over communication and boundaries and safe words and systems, it’s a self awareness of of who you are Mhmm. And what you need. Yes. But more so who you are at the core of who you are? Like, who so many of us, I think, we walk through our life, like, who am I? And we can search our entire lifetimes, go to our deathbeds, not really be asking that.
Carolina Sotomayor: I feel like my dad did that. He didn’t know. I I it’s what I feel. Anything that’s I think I relate that to emotional availability and vulnerability is, like, their any resistance to that is a lack of is also a resistance to know or have awareness. Because if you can’t feel what are you telling clients, if you can’t know what you’re feeling, You can’t tell me what you need for your next step. I don’t care what you want. I need to know what you need first before we get to the want. Can’t run before we we can’t crawl or walk. Like, if you can’t tell me I because it’s different energy versus, like, I think I need this versus I feel I need because then those are two different parts of your body and two different depths. Versus, like, first layers, I think I need a hug or I feel I need you to to hug me and hold me.
It’s two different things. And then the receipt of that is gonna be different. If you were to receive what you asked for. The impact will be different. In my opinion,
Victoria Volk: I was listening to a podcast the other day, and It was it was about, like, manifestation and energy and and money and things like that. But you can apply, again, energy is a currency. Right? And everything is energy. Everything is energy. And it’s like this what comes to my mind now as we’re talking and having this conversation is, what do you have the capacity? What do you have the energetic? What can you energetically hold in your tank? Because we can have this you know, if we’re at an energetic place in our lives where we it’s like one thing after another, like this snowball effect of this this relationship going bad or credit card debt. It’s like so many things happen simultaneously in all areas or various areas of our lives and we don’t connect the dots that we are the common denominator. And it’s like, if you only have again, it comes back to the energy. If your energy is currency and you you’re putting it in all these unhealthy or unsupported whip things, that’s what you have energetic currency for. You’re not gonna have room to let anything else in if it’s all going out. And I think that relates to healing too. It’s like if if you’re looking at your life energetically.
Like, it’s just I’m just gonna suffer. It’s just I have a life. I’m just meant for a life of suffering because I believe that at one time in my life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Which is this the way life is? That’s what I’m saying. You’re gonna see the way they’re
Victoria Volk: suffering. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: And they she really believes that.
Victoria Volk: You That’s that that is the energy you walk the world with that you’re walking life with, and you’re bringing that to everything.
Carolina Sotomayor: And she goes, you’re so lucky. She said, no, I have made choices. And she goes, I don’t get that. I said, she goes, you’re so lucky to have a man like Ryan, or my husband’s hiding in him consciously. So lucky to have a husband like yours. Your dad x y z and like stop. He’s dead. You’ve been divorced my entire life. When is the dead horse gonna be beaten enough? Like like I need a choice to marry a healthy man based on our healthy relationship. He’s a whole person. He’s not he’s not an abuser. I made that choice. Yes, am I blessed to to have this, but I made that choice consciously. You know? I don’t know. I I don’t I get That’s for it. Yeah. I did the work. Like, I was the happiest at that point in my life I had ever been when I met him. And he also said that he knew that when by dating me and marrying me his life would ever be boring.
Victoria Volk: That’s what I say about my husband.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I tell everyone if the a member, his mom asked me he could she goes, why do you want to marry? Him. And I said, is that you know that no one’s ever gonna love me any better than him. He is everything. And I there’s not enough time I never there’s I never have enough time with him. I soak up I still love going on dates with him. Like, they’d say it’s the best. Like, I same Steven says that she goes, I love how good or friends you are. You generally enjoy your husband’s company, never called my husband a man child, or he’s my first child, and I would have never married him. But I never get enough time with him.
And I had dated and engaged before. I’ve never married before, but that’s how I knew. Like, this one’s the one for me. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You had said, on your website, you have a a part that says, your dad’s death in reference to your dad’s death, that it changed me, and it woke me up. In what way, do you feel like it changed you? And were you asleep in your life? Like, the the Carolina before and the Carolina after his death, how would you sum those two people up? Because death does change us.
Carolina Sotomayor: I I’ve thought about this before, and deep deep reflection are a couple of things. My dad’s dad’s death was a hundred percent the start of my spiritual awakening. I had been a faith girl. I had been a Christian girl. I had been a churchgoer. But because of his death, I was spiritually curious. I had believed in I have seen ghost. I have expelled I I even felt ghost in an energy in his house where, like, this stereo, if I fell asleep on the couch, it would turn on in blast static sound. It was awful. So his house was definitely haunted. My mom’s trailer had was haunted. So I had already had the basis of feeling like there was more after you die. I definitely believed in the afterlife in the spiritual realm. I’d never I’m into a cup in in Miami, you can go to Santa Yeah. It’s very real. So which is like, are are very prevalent. You can find them. I have been to a witch before. Usually, if you’re in a Cuban neighborhood, so you if you need They call it a bad news. Like, if you need a bath or, like, a spell, everyone’s at least gone once. So when you’re, like, early twenties or in your teenagers, you do stuff. So I had been to and I was, like, oh, shit’s real. So I had a little bit of a curiosity with that. So when he died, I was very curious to know what happened to them. And I was like, he can’t just not exist anymore. My love for him so strong. His love for me just does not exist. I don’t believe that. Because I’ve had dreams, like, of my Ebola who had died. And I was like, this can’t be the end. Like, my dad believed ashes to ashes, dirt to dirt. Like, he really believed nothing. And I was like, I was like, okay. Like, he didn’t really care where his ashes ended up. Like, his ashes are at my feet. They’re under they’re in his arm. Like, I keep it under my desk. I I move it around. Anyway, I started taking classes with the psychic, the local psychic, she offered like spirit guides, aliens, she would teach about Guardian angels, how to talk to people who have passed, Oracle cards. And I was starting to take these classes. And then I got a reading from her right before her wedding. I got my dad died in April. We got engaged in September. We got married in December. Of that year. So from the time that he proposed to the time we got married, it was very fast. It was ninety days. Just because we we wanted to be married. And right before our wedding, I got the reading. It was Thanksgiving time frame. And she she just said there would be certain things that would happen on our wedding day because my biggest my biggest sadness going into the wedding or my biggest grief was that he wasn’t gonna walk me down the aisle. And the wedding wedding was beautiful and there were certain things that happened that day that we that she said his presence would be known and there’s still things that happen that we don’t know. Like, there was a medallion placed that several people commented on on this table on the beach where we had poured the sand and the fishy and stood in the passers stood in front of. I didn’t see it. It’s not in any of the photos. But several guests had plummeted on it. My cousin goes, did you see that medallion that was on there? Did you where did that come from? And was like, are you talking? I never saw it.
It’s not in any of the pictures. For several people, Anodeon are like, what was that medallion? What was that was that a coin? I was like, I have no idea, but that was on the table in front of everyone. And there was only, like, twenty five thirty people at the the ceremony. So that was one thing. The sky was perfectly blue. And with white clouds and we got married in front of the lighthouse, he used to take us all too. He took them when he was married and then he took me. So this is a special place for us and we got married there in a way to honor him.
But my spiritual weight keying was just so that I could talk to him. So all this exploration, all these workshops, all of these psychic readings, was for me continued to hear from him. Didn’t I a hard time coping not talking to him? So I thought if I became a spiritual medium and I believed when someone said, like, everyone’s a psychic, you just turn it off. I was like, well, okay, let me start taking this seriously and it was I started to have experiences with him. Like, I would feel I I would have certain moments that this is before the horse fall, and this is before I had two horses. This is before the first horse died. I would go to the barn and I would cry on her. And it was during usually these drives on these gravel roads that I would have these experiences. I remember my right leg my right thigh got very cold, and I was sobbing. I know I’d play different songs to make me think of him. And I was just like, I just miss you. I just I don’t understand why this is my life now without you. And I would just go to the barn and I would cry. I would just stand and cry in my horse. She was everything to me and it was through that connection that idea experiences, little things like that. And then I started to smell him climbing up my apartment stairs. And I took a workshop on clear abilities and which is like clear cognizant. Clear sentence, clear audience, like, you can hear things, vision, you can see things, symbols. I started learning about angel numbers, and it started playing weird things like my girl was our song. And it would be I’d be walking through the office, and then I would just hear my girl playing. And it would just be, like, just little things that he would send me and was, like, okay, there’s something to this. So then I started getting repeated. I would hear that often and in rain in place because my girls are very specific. Mhmm. Song would hear it at Walmart on the speaker or it’d be somebody’s ring tone or it would play on my on my radio in the car. My new this is twenty twelve. So this is this is twenty fourteen. So it’s a very different time than, like, I I still listen to the radio and stuff versus, like, Spotify now. But then I I started to I got Reiki Attuned. And with every Reiki Attunement, my mediumship, my ability to channel got deeper and stronger. And when I started to use Oracle cards, I could start to channel with him. I started intuitively journaling, and he would show up in every medium I would try. So it wasn’t just straight senses of clear abilities and symbols. It was also using, like, my dad had a very specific b o. So, like, it was old spice and old man smell. Mhmm. So, like, when I smelled that, I was climbing up the apartment stairs that I had just moved into, and it was just, like, And I was like in the light flickered. I was like, okay. So now I have learned to believe occurrences. So and I can feel him when he’s around and when he’s not around. He’s not always around. So that my dad’s death led me to stretch me to believe that I was possible to I did a desire to wanna communicate with them, which meant I need to become a medium, which then let me to channel spirit babies I am doing now. I believe that because of his my desire to continue to talk to him, is what led me into my ability to channel. Because then when I started to channel professionally in paid sessions, I could talk to other loved ones. I could and then it and then I was in Ricky Sessions. I was working with moms who’ve lost babies. And they were grieving the losses of stillborn or medically terminated or a topic or a chemical pregnancy or a failed fertility treatment or an embryo transfer that didn’t work out. Connecting to those babies was the end result. Mhmm. What what Carolina was before my dad’s death? She was a she was a she was a lot more carefree. She was a lot she was a lot lighter, meaning, like, or a a blue yes. A lot more care free. I was a less healed, less considerate. I was very caring, but I was not as careful as I am. I’m very not self aware as I am now, obviously. But I also didn’t have a relationship with healing other than talk therapy And I was very much stuck in a dysregulated nervous system seeking everyone else’s approval to get validated. And had no self love and no self confidence. Everything was if I work hard, I’ll work harder, and then that’s how I got stuff. There was no there was not much self relationship other than work hard. Do what people tell you. Honestly, we’ll get you far, Ray. And try to have some fun sprinkled in. So I I I think I’m probably cutting myself short a little bit, but now it’s it’s a lot more I feel like just it’s just lightened day. I’m I can generally say I’m happy most of the time. And I love who I am. I love the life I’m living versus before I took a job because it was my first big girl job after graduating. I graduated twenty nine and got jobs early after, moved from Florida to Nebraska, didn’t know anyone. And it was because I wanted to start over, but I think she was strong.
But just didn’t have a lot of self awareness or a lot of love for herself.
Victoria Volk: I think what sums up what you just shared is if you wanna heal, Get to know yourself.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s true. Yourself.
Victoria Volk: Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: I’m sorry. That was pretty long winded.
Victoria Volk: No. It’s beautiful. That’s what I hear in what all that you shared. And even just my personal experience, it’s like, if we give ourselves the time and attention, like, really, it’s our inner child. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s yes. As an inner child, when I moved to Omaha, I didn’t know anyone. So I was like, I I was so lonely, and they didn’t wanna I’m not much of a drinker and all my coworkers, they drink because that’s what you do in the Midwest. Mhmm. And that’s where you meet people. Like, where do you get a boyfriend? Go to a bar. I can’t hold my liquor. I’m such a lightweight. So I started making a bucket list and playing visitor in my city, and Omaha is a great city.
I love it so much. And I was like, I had ahead disposable income for the first time. And I was like, what am I gonna do with a little money? So I went on Craigslist. And I said, what is the thing that I always wanted to do? I was like, this is my guest season because I was so lonely. Like, I didn’t know what to do because I was like, I wanna have some fun. So I found a trainer that was doing twenty five dollar horse lessons. And I would go because I wanted I always wanted a horse Like, I dreamt of horses. I would look up before I left Miami would look up how much horses cost?
How much could they how much does it cost to board? And I was like, that’s a nonsense. I can’t afford that. So then I I was like, and four twenty five dollar horse lessons. Well, three months in, I bought the horse less I bought the lesson horse.
And and she was the greatest thing that I had ever loved and the joke was the I love the horse more than my husband when we got married. It’s my husband’s still jokes because if she was still around, she would still outrank me. She was my hard horse. I knew it was Cheyenne. And that horse cared me for years, like, from, gosh, twenty twelve to twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen.
I loved her so much. She was amazing. And my inner child wanted a pony, wanted a horse so much. And I bought her. And she was in my engagement photos, like, and so lying about it. Like, the vet became a good friend to my husband and I, and he goes, I’m sorry to tell you this. It was kinda hurtful. He goes, I think you killed your horse. And I was like, I didn’t I don’t know what you’re talking about. He goes, you cried so much on her. Her she ended up having asthma and she couldn’t eat and breathe. At this like, she couldn’t eat and breathe at the same time in no matter for several months of steroids and treatment, her quality of life wasn’t very good anymore, and we just couldn’t and her cough was so bad. We the vets said the most humane thing was to put her down. So that was the hardest thing ever, but she so grieving her that the first two years of her marriage were shitty. And we I was I don’t remember a lot other than those moments. Like, my dad died. We got engaged. We got married. We settled the state. My horse died.
That was the order in which things happen. And we were trying to help, baby. And, you know, things, you know, you
Victoria Volk: didn’t have the energetic capacity for a baby.
Carolina Sotomayor: No, I didn’t. No. But with my horse dying, I think that was even harder. I think the I have it when I think about the grief, the grief from the court case of this this date settlement was harder than actually losing my dad, fighting with them. But the grief of losing my horse oh, god. Because she carried me, and it was it was my it was like a child to me. And having a relationship with a horse and riding them and training them and caring for them, especially if they’re sick and it’s your first horse. An animal that large, it’s and I have dogs now and I’ve had cats. It’s very different than relationship with dogs because it’s it’s very dangerous sport. It’s a lot of trust building, a lot of there’s a lot of energy that goes into a horse person relationship.
So, greeting her was really hard.
Victoria Volk: They say that emotionally, horses are the most similar to humans, emotionally.
Carolina Sotomayor: I quit horses. I I still had the second horse, but he was a butthole, and he was too much horse for me. And whereas the first horse, she made me overly confident, but she really was such a good horse he made up for my incompetence. And so the second one, we had a love hate relationship. But he ended up hurting his leg and he had to be put down too in twenty seventeen.
Yeah. So he had him for a while, but he was so old. I couldn’t he just became a lawn ornament. So I gave him treats. He was he was so ornury. I loved him, but I hated him. He was it wasn’t the same. And I was kinda resentful after she died. I was like, I’m stuck with you. So isn’t it like
Victoria Volk: seeing how you described your dad? You didn’t say the word ornery, but you said stubborn.
Carolina Sotomayor: Does that No. It’s transcribing my horse.
Victoria Volk: Right? But that’s how you described your dad. Like, not ordinary, but you meant describe
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, my dad was ordinary.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my
Carolina Sotomayor: dad was stubborn. Yeah. But this horse was, like, he was, like, the one of my bad boyfriends. Like, he was so good looking. Like, he was so gorgeous that as soon as you’re about to get over him, he’ll do something really nice. But then, like, a little bit later, he’ll turn around and do something really shitty. So, like, he would do things like bite me or, like, I’m grooming him or I’m I’m cinching up the the saddle to ride. He’d come around and try to bite me and or he would nip me. Like, he just loved to bite me. And I was like, why you?
Or, like, he’d push me and I’d fall down. He was sixteen hands high. He was huge.
Victoria Volk: Maybe he was never taught how to be gentle. You know what I mean?
Carolina Sotomayor: He picked on me. He was perfect for other people.
Victoria Volk: The bully. Oh.
Carolina Sotomayor: Other people would write them that were more like, I was a novice and that were, like, good writers and are born. They’re, like, oh my god, he’s such a good boy, or he would fake trip to, like, scare me while we were trail riding. And then he would just, like, look at me. Like, he hated my husband, so he stepped on my husband’s foot, and he looked at me while he was doing it and pricing his foot down. I yeah. No. Like, his name was Bucks Mosipi, and you. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Well, you know, we meet assholes in our in our human relationships. I guess we meet them in the animal world too. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Yes. It was like but he loves treats.
Victoria Volk: My youngest, we just watched a video just the other day of her. She must have been maybe three. I say around three years old, three or four. And my I had asked her on the video. I said, what do you wanna view when you grow up?
And she said, a vet. Wait. I wanna be a cow girl. And she has wanted a horse and dreamt of horses and horse, horse, horse, horse, horse, since she was eighty bitty. And so I imagine one day she’ll be just like you and have her own horse, and she’s actually planning to go to vet school. So she’s a sophomore in high school and she wants to be a vet, and she’s still pursued. She’s going to pursue that. So
Carolina Sotomayor: good for her. I think,
Victoria Volk: doubt she’ll have a horse.
Carolina Sotomayor: I would if I if I could have the first horse again, I would do horses again. Yeah. But because because of gotten the garter questions, like, you’re gonna get another horse? No. Nebraska winners could be brutal.
And we boarded they have a shelter, but they’re best if they’re in a herd. So not like stalled. So our horses would have a barn that they could fully go into as a herd, and then they would also have free access to go out. Like, but having I had older horses, they required extra care and not just, like, shots and floating their teeth and all that. Like, they need to be blindkicked. That’s very controversial. But, like, to keep weight on, to keep all those things. And in Nebraska, you can have three or four seasons on a day. And, like, depending on our winners, you can we’ve had winners where it would snow, but then it would get really warm. And if they sweat underneath their blanket, it’s bad. Like, and it could ruin their code and all of these things. So, like, to go out there, put the blanket on, take it off again, and it and it’d be in cold and, like, also be are you close enough to the barn? I just don’t wanna do that anymore. But if we had the first horse, guarantee you would be still a poor girl. But if it was for the second, the second one ruined me. And then this finally had one kid. Like, I was like, this this pregnancy, this birth, this is for is is was really rough. I don’t wanna do this again. And we we pretick, we had talked about only having one kid, but I was like, if it’s anything like the horses, I don’t wanna gamble this, bro. I don’t I we’re good. We’re good. We have three dogs. We’re good. I have three dogs.
Victoria Volk: Brings up a question for me. I’m glad you mentioned that because you essentially grew up as an only child.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: So, what does that bring up for you as your son being an only child?
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, god. He would give anything to have a sibling. He asked he asked if we could adopt, if we could foster, we talked about those. We were very open, and I was like, listen. The fact I literally I literally said it was, like, my ability to have a baby, this factory is closed. Was very difficult to achieve you. And he goes, why can’t you just go save a baby? I was like, it doesn’t work that way. I was like, we had to to talk about, like, you know, that it costs a lot of money to adopt, to foster. And I was like, we really like the way our family is now.
And then I was like, so, like, really trying to understand his need for a sibling. Essentially, he wants to belong. He wants someone that’s like him. He wants So what we have done to mitigate that is we’ve made extra efforts to my husband has a brother and we do I will move mountains to even it’s first for a day, we live in different states. So, aren’t my in laws live in Kansas now that used to live here?
So, they live in Wichita and my brother-in-law lives in Fort Worth. So, if there I will move efforts so that he can have cousin time, visits to to to get that sibling time that’s as close as possible. But my husband, he was very adamant coming into our marriage, so he only wanted child. And I was like, I think I would want one or two. Let’s see how it goes with one. And then as we had went through everything, he very much wanted to only have one child. And he’s like, you’ve had a really bad child experience like sibling experiences. He has his own he had a very good childhood, but he has his own feelings about certain topics. So for his purpose, like, we discussed, and he’s, like, we both decided collectively just one child, but I am in strong opinion. Our son will probably have, like, seven or eight children.
He loves babies. He he’s already told me he wants to be a dad and he goes, when I I have a family, he’s already thinking about it. I think it’s because we talk about babies all the time and people having babies because of what I do. We got another Ricky baby. They’re and and I had to describe, like, IVF is they have to have surgery sometimes to have the baby. Babies are made different ways. And he’s like, well, when I’m seventeen, I’m gonna have a family. I’m gonna be a dad. I was like, let’s wait a little bit longer. He told me that two days ago, because when I said it to you, he wants to be a dad. Do you have college to be a dad? No. No.
Victoria Volk: You go through college as you’re being a dad. I swear to say good. That’s about diversity you never get out of.
Carolina Sotomayor: But I think I I am actively working on being more I think I have a good I think as an adult, sometimes it can be really hard to be a kid again, but I think as a parent of an intentionally only child, you have to be their plainly at times. And I watched a creator in TikTok say that he was an only child in the consequences and how lonely it was. So I only became aware of this because he is now older. I mean, he’s still very young, but I am actively trying my like, over the past month, I realized, like, he he told me he at the end of summer, he was on pretty lonely, jam packing, late dates, grading community, community was really important to us, but, like, having regular play dates with the same people, so there’s more of a kinship there. I think it’s gonna be the best I can do.
We have three dogs. I hope that I hope that helps him.
Victoria Volk: And to help him, you know, we need a community, right, as adults. Like, we
Carolina Sotomayor: Right.
Victoria Volk: Driving community, and kids are no different. So it’s helping him find his people.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I I noticed that we tried Yeah. We tried soccer for the first time in the spring as an invitation from a preschool friend and to continue that relationship. And I was like, oh my gosh. Look how much more productive we are in a Saturday. Look, we made I made a friend who doesn’t even speak English, should we share the same name? She’s from Ukraine. And I learned to use Google translate, and our world exploded in the best ways with, like, new connection. So I think understanding the need for him to feel like he belongs somewhere is what I think it is and that he is he has a connection with someone. So me actively working on that part. Mhmm. I think will kind of
Victoria Volk: enrich his life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. In a so we may not be able to do this, but I am like, he may not understand the emotional you need is. You wanna feel connected. You wanna feel like you belong. You wanna feel like you have something with someone.
And I’m creating that in different spots. So it’s not all in one pot too. That’s very strategic. So if, like, something goes south with school friends, he still has sport friends and he still has plate eight friends that are all not in the same bucket.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. My youngest too, she just had someone some a family moved here and now they’re they’re all about the horses together and, you know, they share the same interest and she’s phoned. You know, she was struggling, I think, for a while there to try and find somebody that had the same similar interest, you know, as her and
Carolina Sotomayor: They can do wonders. He’s relating to Pokemon. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Even coming out of their shell more so.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. We have he made a friend in his class, and he’s also into Pokemon. And he has a special he needs special attention throughout the day. And Ollie has sought him out, and he goes, I like being his friend because he needs me. And he also likes Pokemon. And as So we’ve done play dates with this kid, and he is so so sweet. And I’ve seen Ollie just light up, oh, my turn on scene dates, but I’ve seen my son light up so much because of the shared interest and the depth of, like, Do you have this card? Do you have do you have the evolve form so much? I know so much about Pokemon. But, you know, and it’s just I they just light up different than another like, is it something that they really care about?
Victoria Volk: Well, I’m gonna tell you something. My son would probably hate me for mentioning this on a podcast, but he’s into Pokemon. Helly. He’s nineteen.
Carolina Sotomayor: You be surprised. I looked up there’s a lot of grown adults who do it post a month ago. And we’re learning to battle. I’m not really sure. I’m I’m trying to get people to answer my questions on, like, how to build a deck so he can go to one of the tournaments. And their their website doesn’t work. Oh, goodness. I’m in a Facebook group with grown men. Really?
Victoria Volk: But I mean, it’s like and he’s been collecting these since he was a kid. So he’s nineteen. So
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s like,
Victoria Volk: well, like, plus years, ten years. For sure, ten plus years, he’s got a lot of cards. And he’ll show me the ones he’s really proud of and what they’re he’s been looking up, how much they’re worth, and so he’s you know, he’s got quite the collection.
Carolina Sotomayor: He goes to trading events as far as we’ve gotten, but we have three binders, and I’ve organized them by Yuval formed with him. And down the street, he had a there was a little bully down the street. And he kept saying how much he has, like, these v stars. And I’m like, what’s a v star Ollie? What is that? He goes, oh, so and so says that he have ten and I only have two. And I was like and he said it’s a mean things to me. I was like, Let’s go on eBay. And I’m a spiteful human. And I I bought I was like, is this one good?
I was like, we can’t spend, like, twenty dollars on a card, but we can spend a couple dollars on a card. And I ordered I ordered like I’m not kidding you. Fourteen or fifteen. I ordered so many VStar’s so that the next time they battled, he had just two pages full of v stars. And I was like, you go to show that little kid.
How many v stars you have? But it was not my finest parenting moment, but I was like, you you wanted like, in my instance, like, you’re taking this a little too far. I was like, no. It keeps going down. All you came home crying and I was like, no.
Victoria Volk: Not having this.
Carolina Sotomayor: Not having this. We will we will be victorious every day because they came for anyway, drive, like, in these little white envelopes. So excited to go get the mail. Yes.
Victoria Volk: My son loves it too, getting the mystery packs. Oh. It’s like Christmas. You know, you never know.
Carolina Sotomayor: Have you watched a livestream of those?
Victoria Volk: I’m sure he has. He’s like the
Carolina Sotomayor: only guy we have. We’ve gone in TikTok and we’ve watched these people unbox stuff. Wild.
Victoria Volk: It’s yeah. There’s you know, just like Ricky, you know, it’s like kind of feel like unicorn sometimes when you’re into the energy work and especially probably in the Midwest. You know, that’s I’m glad, you know, we kinda talked about that. But being in the Midwest, it’s not something we’re not as, like, progressive. Right? So do you did you ever feel like you know, like, it’s, like, grown man adults who love Pokemon. They’re probably kind of in the closet a little bit. It’s, like, didn’t you ever feel like that? Like, when you first, like, really got a little awkward. You were
Carolina Sotomayor: especially when I was still working corporate. I quit corporate about three years ago, three and a half years ago. So I did I’ve done I’ve been doing Ricky for seven years, and it was something I was really proud of, but also, like, really skurdish because I had also lost a lot of people who told me I was doing the devil’s work. Mhmm. So I was really kind of, like, in the closet about it because of how people reacted. But now there’s, like, a huge move movement. There’s a lot of spiritual practitioners in Omaha that are very open, and now it’s, like, fun to manifest. But it wasn’t like that in twenty seventeen. Like, if you use the pendulum, we were gonna hell. And I I my best friend, actually, last August, we went to visit her last July. So last August, she said, I’m really scared for your soul. You’re going straight to hell. I’m like, dude, this is not new. Like, you know, I’ve been doing this forever. But I was like, okay.
And she’s like, well, you’re not gonna you’re gonna stop it? Or do you wanna be my best friend? So it’s like, bro, even I don’t know I’m used since I was twenty. If you’re not into this, that’s okay. I’ll love you from afar, but we don’t, you know, I’m not I don’t believe in hell. I just believe in the other side. But if you think that’s what’s happening to me, then you don’t have to be a part of this show. You don’t have to be part of this party. And we parted. So for me, now I it took me a long time to really be, like, yeah, I’m a psychic medium. But it took, I think, time. It took years for me to be, like, get over those losses and, like, for me to stand strong. I’m like like, this is my life purpose. And I think I just needed proven evidence over time and time and time again, you know, when and to make like, to have, I think, the more legitimate I’ve I’ve really proven myself as into, like, my branding, my marketing, like, just it made me feel more legitimate. Mhmm. And when I switched from in person to online right before COVID happened, I quit seeing people in person. I I got more confident. I was like, Omaha is too small for me. I think that’s also why I went online. Was this like, there’s only so many people who are open to this and I feel like if I go online, I’ll find more people I’m meant for the world. That’s what I told myself. And essentially, that’s essentially what’s happened. I started the podcast and I’ve met so many people. And I we have eighteen thousand followers on TikTok, and we’re globally ranked every day with our podcast that make me be behind a podcast. So I don’t hide anymore. Like, either you like me, and I’m not gonna convince you, either I’m like, here here’s a FAQ question. If you wanna go look what it is, great. But I don’t convince anyone that they should do this. If you’re curious, I’ll talk to you. But that’s not my mission to convince you to do this.
And if you’re curious, I’ll I’ll have a conversation with you, but I’m not gonna convince you to do anything. That’s not my problem. It’s not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys. It’s certainly not gonna own that problem.
Victoria Volk: And if you are curious, it’s probably the universe, like, knocking you on the head. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I looked curious.
Victoria Volk: Called me too. Like, I kept hearing rapey, rapey, rapey, you know. What’s this rapey? I bought in the night. Went through rapey one and two and then I got my rapey master and then I went through corona, holy fireakey, and so that’s What do you
Carolina Sotomayor: think of holy fire corona? I love that that one changed my life, the corona. Mhmm. I like that one. And I did I did I want him to I was I was like a needle jut. I mean, the professional certification. So I took it with a licensed Yeah. I see our t teacher. I need that certificate. That level of certificate.
I couldn’t be, like, regular person.
Victoria Volk: Oh, I didn’t go through the licensing, but I was trained, like, my racking master teacher was one of thirty licensed rate emails. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: No. That’s who you went like, so you can get, like, this special certificate. That’s what I really, really wanted. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was my Reiki I think it was my Reiki too. I had a really profound experience and that kind of, like, solidified the deal for me for my healing personal healing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Then I went into biofuel tuning. So now I use tuning force.
Carolina Sotomayor: Really? Oh, I’ve never played with tuning forks.
Victoria Volk: My friend, that is for me, personally, in my opinion, it’s more bang for your buck.
Carolina Sotomayor: It Oh. Tell me more.
Victoria Volk: It is it it is really deep. It’s it really matches the energy work that I want to be doing with people to help people really move through stuff because it’s it yeah. Biofil tuning.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, we’re gonna have to check after this. Yes. I
Victoria Volk: would love to. But, yeah, it’s that has been
Carolina Sotomayor: you should come in my podcast.
Victoria Volk: I would love to. I would love to. Jazzy. Good. So, yeah, it’s enabled me to do the work that I do with Grievers and, you know, I know what’s not mine?
You know? And I didn’t know that in the beginning, especially, and I’m maybe
Carolina Sotomayor: really hard to decipher.
Victoria Volk: It is. It’s like, oh,
Carolina Sotomayor: what am I feeling as this comes up? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute. I’m not I got a clear my stuff
Carolina Sotomayor: a hundred percent.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. Yeah. It’s energy work has enabled me to do the work that I do with with grief and talking to Grievers and, you know, because people
Carolina Sotomayor: move it out
Victoria Volk: of pressing. That’s so depressing.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I’m
Victoria Volk: like, grief is my jam. Like, it I could talk about it all the live long day. I never lived part of it.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I hear stories of loss. I worked with a person yesterday who did a termination at twenty five weeks, which is really difficult to go for a person to go through. My husband’s like, are you okay? I’m like, yeah.
Just gonna make my decaf. And I was like, it it just becomes I was like, I can hold space for a lot because I’ve gone through a lot, but I also can appreciate her pain. Mhmm. I can see, like, I can hold space for it because but it’s not my story. I’ve done, like, enough it’s I’ve had enough practice to hold it apart from me and also no big grounded going into it and then cleanse after. Understand what I’m feeling is enough practice of know who’s talking to me when I’m in the session. Mhmm. I have a question. Have you I have you ever gotten a tune to another lineage of Ricky or only Holy Fire?
Victoria Volk: Only Holy Fire.
Carolina Sotomayor: I got a tune to Crystal Ricky, and then I got certified in Ricky for childbirth.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Carolina Sotomayor: And then I when I what I’ve settled on, it was kundalini Ricky. I found this woman and corporate
Victoria Volk: I’m sorry, what? Does she she incorporates breath work?
Carolina Sotomayor: No. It’s just basically there’s a few different symbols with the kundalini Reiki. It’s more potent and it’s easier from, like, with my practice with I have traditional use to eat, reiki chris o Reiki, the Holy Fire, one two Ricky Master in Corona, and then I got and I did childbirth in there, and then I did Kundalini last. I did this two years ago. She does she doesn’t teach, like, chakras, doesn’t teach anything about cord cutting. She gives you the ultimate and gives you a packet. And it’s was fifty bucks for every achievement, for the three achievements. And she does everything virtually over Zoom. And I found her in TikTok. And I had seen a video about Kundalini, and I became very interested in mother earth, like obsessed with her. And then the Kundalini awakening And I started to dive into I had a student and also a dear friend who I was training in Holy Fire Ricky Master. Mhmm. And And I and and then showing Charlie went on to Corona. And I was like, she’s she was studying Sandskrit, and she was discussing, like, the true meanings of some of the words. And I was like and she’s like, I don’t feel very settled by this. And when we’re having this discussion, I was like, well, I’ve been playing with Cunalini. Do you want didn’t come over to my side? Do you want this? And we played with that together. And I just find it more organic. It’s less like, I can get more done in a short amount of time. Like, I can do, like, a ten minute session and it feels like as if I done with corona for thirty. Mhmm. So it feels also just if Corona felt feminine and I still love corona, but if this feels like the most feminine for me, and it’s just very, very simple. It doesn’t have all the symbols, but it does have some symbols. But and it has different, like, DNA diving. It has this all these other things on the Reiki master, but that’s what I mainly practice now. And it’s I don’t know. It feels sparkly. It feels it’s it’s just flows easier for me. It feels lighter when I’m done with the session too. Like, when I have when I have to, like, tense myself after a session and I feel lighter. It’s not, like, it’s easier for me to move through sessions if I have to do a start role a day. I’m less tired at the end of the day.
Victoria Volk: Sounds interesting.
Carolina Sotomayor: You should play together. Yeah. Sounds like forks. I’ll tell you, like, clearly. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: We’ll have to yeah. We’ll have to connect after. And it’s what’s funny is that before we even started recording. We joked about this not being a two hour guest. It’s
Carolina Sotomayor: a big two hours.
Victoria Volk: And here we are an hour and fifty seven minutes
Carolina Sotomayor: set up. That’s funny.
Victoria Volk: So You are Oh, goodness. It’s one o’clock, the longest podcast. And I’ve enjoyed every minute of
Carolina Sotomayor: it too.
Victoria Volk: I think it was we went to a lot of different places, and I you know, there’s a lot of stuff on here. I haven’t asked, but I think in a lot of ways, you answered for me. I mean, you kinda went into the medium and how you kinda came. Yeah. I think you answered all the questions I had.
And that switches to Zaro.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s not in my world.
Victoria Volk: But on the end with this, what gives you hope for the future?
Carolina Sotomayor: Or by future or just future in general.
Victoria Volk: It gives you hope for, I don’t know, the collective however you wanna answer that, however you interpret that,
Carolina Sotomayor: that you can redeem yourself at any time. You can start over at any time. Last night, I I I let a circle a a boom activation inside a membership. And somebody and I said, what is the most fearless, most fertile version of you? What is she like? And somebody said that they smiled knowingly that they were having the redemptive pregnancy in birth. And I that word was so powerful for me for me, I cried and I got goosebumps. And I love that how many times I can always start over and that gives me hope that I have that and I like that I can always redeem myself because I love myself enough and I love unconditionally the people around me and I’ve learned to love unconditionally. And because of that, I can always apologize and start over. I could always forgive myself and I could always start over and do better and try again. Anything that has allowed me to have hope that if I make a mistake, I’ll do better. I won’t repeat it. And that gives me hope. And because that means I can always be better and without mistakes, I will not grow. And I have a firm belief that whatever I am, my dad taught me this because whatever you are is the baseline of what your children will be. He goes, so make sure you’re really great. And I feel like I am doing what I was meant to do in this lifetime. And I hope if that is true that my son sees that, then I can only imagine what he’s going to set intentions for to make the world a better place because he can always start over. Because he loves himself enough that he can forgive himself. If he has to forgive, he can grow and expand, he can redeem himself again. And you think starting over, it also feels very fresh and that’s exciting. So when she like, and she I don’t know if I would have answered that before yesterday. I think just being loved probably would have been being loved by my husband and my son would have been my answer before yesterday.
Victoria Volk: I can tell you what your answer was before yesterday.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, shit. Are you serious?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Because I asked it on my form.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh my god. It’s so exciting.
Victoria Volk: If I can find it. When I think what would they really want for me in the the x situation, then I sit with that and proceed. It makes it easier to be fearless and go live the life I want. I think there’s more, but your answer today was perfect. It was beautiful. And it sounds like the antidote for shame too.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. Yeah. You’d always start over. I I didn’t think a lot of people put like, if you have to start over, like, it’s a like, it you don’t have to start over all the way at a point x, you’re just starting over where you’re right now. Mhmm. So it’s it’s easier because you’re you’re at you’re evolved. You’re not starting over at the very beginning. You’re starting evolved from a further point. I think people underrate how, how good it can be just start over. You can start over just by a new day or the first of the month or the first of the year.
I mean, that’s why everyone does New Year’s resolutions. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yes.
Carolina Sotomayor: You can start over mid afternoon or at one:thirteen in the afternoon. I love the thing that’s really helpful.
Victoria Volk: Where can people reach you if they’d like to connect with you?
Carolina Sotomayor: I think Instagram is the easiest. My handle is the Carolina, like North and South, search my org, s o t o m a y o r. Or my website, caroline is it to my org dot com, or you can I think messaging and dimming me on Instagram is either you can follow me on TikTok and YouTube? We’re pretty active on YouTube too. We’re active on these things. Oh, my podcast. Yeah. Listen to the podcast. So forget about that one. Make a baby. Make a baby podcast. We are into making babies. We make babies with Reiki as our tagline. We’re two years old, and we’re close two. We’re a little over six thousand downloads. So we’re slow and steady. We’re we would love for you to take a listen. We come out weekly at minimum. Sometimes, like, this week, we’re doing in prompt two. We’re gonna post every day. Because we’re doing a healing challenge inside the membership. But, yeah, come and join us. Yeah. If you’re with listers once, I can give you the link. They can try the membership out for three days for free if they want to come and join us.
You can try it out before deciding if they wanna stay or not.
Victoria Volk: Tesla on the link. I’ll put that Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I’ll email it to you right away.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Along with your contact information and
Carolina Sotomayor: Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much. I feel like this was a really I say it’s a lot, but when this is what’s so important to me with this podcast is to be able to give people the time in the space to Go Deep, to really share the story. To develop for me to develop a connection with you so that my listeners feel a connection with you. And I think that’s so that’s so important to me. And so thank you for coming to my podcast and True Ireland. And allowing me to sit with you through your stories.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you so much for for listening and having me.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Unlock the power of deep connections with one simple phrase: “Tell me more.”
Today, I explore how a single statement can transform relationships and foster emotional honesty. I also explore the impact of inviting others to share their stories, emphasizing the importance of being present and truly listening.
Key Takeaways:
– Discover why “Tell me more” is a game-changing invitation for deeper conversations.
– Learn how to create safe spaces for emotional sharing without needing to fix or judge.
– Understand the significance of connecting through genuine storytelling in your relationships.
Tune in now to enrich your interactions and support those around you on their grief journey.
RESOURCES:
- Teeccino – listeners receive 10% off the entire order with the code “THEUNLEASHEDHEART”
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Support the Show.
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
The Power of Emotional Honesty in Storytelling
The Importance of Deep Emotional Connections
The cornerstone of Grieving Voices lies in fostering deep emotional connections between guests and listeners. These connections are not just about sharing words; they involve touching hearts and minds on an intimate level. When we engage in emotionally honest storytelling, we transcend surface-level interactions and create bonds that resonate with empathy and understanding.
Why “Tell Me More” Matters
One powerful phrase highlighted by the host is “tell me more.” This simple invitation encourages individuals to open up and share their stories without fear of judgment or unsolicited advice. It’s an offer to sit with someone in their vulnerability, listen attentively, and provide nothing but your presence.
Imagine being asked to share your story genuinely for the first time—how liberating would that be? For many people, this might be an entirely new experience where they finally feel heard.
The Journey Towards Offering Support
However, offering such support requires one crucial step: undergoing one’s own emotional journey first. If you’ve never had the chance to share your story safely, it may be challenging to extend that same opportunity to others. Personal healing often precedes our ability to help heal others.
Normalizing Conversations About Grief
The host concludes by urging listeners who find value in these conversations about grief to share the podcast widely. By doing so, we contribute towards normalizing discussions around grief as naturally as talking about everyday topics like weather forecasts.
Grieving Voices aims not only at providing supportive content but also at making heartfelt dialogues commonplace.
Unleash Your Heart
So next time you find yourself listening intently or asking someone “tell me more,” remember—you’re participating in something much bigger than just a conversation—you’re helping unleash hearts…and lives too!
Thank you for being part of this transformative journey! And always remember when you unleash your heart; you unleash your life.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of Greeting Voices. I am your host Victoria V. And it’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded one in quite some time, so I felt it was about time. But I wasn’t sure up until today, actually, as I’m recording this, what I was going to talk about. But there’s been some themes popping up lately, and we’ve there’s been some losses in my community, really tragic deaths in my community. Friends dealing with certain things and conversations I’ve been having with guests on my podcast and in particular, if you haven’t listened to episode two zero seven with Tiff Carson from last week, that’s a great episode. She went very deep and it was just a really rich conversation. She was very vulnerable and it we were both crying. Just a really good episode to highlight the depths of grief and the effect of the the impact of generational stuff that gets passed down to us, which kinda ties into today’s episode as well. So Anyway, the question I want to pose an answer today is what to do when a loved one is not coping well with death in the family. And so this episode is though not going to be a tell you what to do when this happens. So the title of the podcast is kind of a a hook, if you will, to get you to listen to this because what I’m going to do instead is to package this episode as a lot of questions. And I think when we ask ourselves diaper questions? No. I don’t think I know. I know that when we ask ourselves deeper questions, we get deeper answers. And we often don’t wanna get those deeper answers because when we know it, We know it and we can’t unknow it. And we often have to face things within ourselves when we ask those deeper questions. You know, learning about my human design, which has nothing to do, with grief in this episode, but I’m just I’m going to share though what what has what I’ve learned about myself is that my superpower is asking questions, is being the questioner, I have the gate of doubt as my son, conscious son. And I am the natural skeptic, and I am the questioner. And I also have connectedness as one of my top five strengths in my u mab. And if you’re unfamiliar with human design or u mab, just check out my website, danleychart dot com, go under services, and you’ll see you map. You’ll see the grief work and and you won’t see human design on there, but that’s just a kind of a side thing I’m into. But anyway, my point in this episode is to bring to you questions for self reflection.
And I’m gonna start with this idea, number one. I mean, there’s three points I’m gonna cover today, but number one, is this idea of not coping well versus coping well. The second is looking at the relationship with that person who you deem is not coping well, quotation marks, coping well. And third, where our focus goes, our energy flows. So Number one, not coping well versus coping well. I just want you to reflect on yourself. Here and your own beliefs about grief. What were you raised to believe about grief? Was healthy coping, emulated for you as you were growing up? Did your parents And in your household, did you openly talk about grief? Did you openly talk about death and loss? I’ve recognized there are I mean, just in the podcast, four plus years of podcasting, there’s been very few guests who have shared that they openly talked about grief and loss. Usually, it was because the parent had worked in the death and dying industry. And, you know, as a mortician or something like that where grief was just at the forefront of their lives. And that’s not very common. What’s more common is that grief is kinda swept under the rug. We don’t talk about it. It that’s It’s why we have these societal issues around grief the way we do today. I think back when, way back when, we mourned differently than we do now. We mourned openly.
Women wore black for, I don’t know, how many days or weeks. As long as they needed to, perhaps, they took pictures with their deceased loved ones. They kept them in the home. Most people died in the home. The services were not left to a third party, you know, to handle all of the you know, the body and the logistics and all of that. Like, it was more of a community family involvement. Way back when. We’ve kind of removed ourselves from that death and dying process and being participants in that. And move towards stuffing down our grief, stuffing down our emotions, not talking about it, sweeping it out of the rug, giving all the power and agency to other people. Not having open conversations and dialogue about what we want, when we die, what our desires are. If we are encompensated. Like, we just don’t have these conversations. Right? And so I just wanna want you to ask yourself, Are you coping well? Because, you know, listening to the first ten episodes or so of this podcast If you haven’t, that’d be a great place to start too.
I talk a lot about what we talk about when I work with Grievers and Grief Recovery We tend to grieve alone. We tend to try and be strong for everyone else around us and for ourselves. We tend to keep busy, bury ourselves and work. Maybe we’re resorting to behaviors that make us feel better for a short period of time such as what we call them sturbs. Short term energy relieving behaviors where we might drink or exercise can be a stirb, shopping, gambling, things like that. Are you coping well? Are you doing those behaviors? Because if you are news flash, you may not be coping very well yourself. So then we project these ideas onto our loved ones who are not responding to death in the same way that we are. We’re thinking we might have our shit together and I’ve got this and we’re being strong for everybody else, but that’s not coping well.
That’s surviving. That’s not thriving. So the flip side of that, what does that look like? It means open dialogue. It means open communication.
It means sharing your feelings in a wrong authentic way. It means not apologizing for how you’re feeling. It means crying when you need to cry, not caring who sees it, openly grieving. And yes, we all do grief differently. We do grief differently, but in as a society, I think we all grieve similarly, and that’s in these ways I was describing. Not trying not to feel bad. You know, we tell people, don’t feel bad. Here’s the tissue. Stop you’re crying. Right?
We get uncomfortable when other people are crying around us or showing their emotions and so we want to shut them down like as it makes me uncomfortable. We replace the loss. You know, death of a friendship or a relationship or someone passes. We, you know, I I can get a new wife or a new husband or a new spouse or a new dog or a new cat or whatever it is, we replace the loss or maybe we’re replacing that loss with a disturb. Either way, we often replace the loss. Pour ourselves in our energy into something else to distract ourselves. And if things aren’t working well, well, we grieve alone because no one wants to hear about our loss a year from now, because we should be over it. Right? You should be over it by now. So the people saying that, you should be over it by now. How are they coping? And so I think there’s this false sense or idea that Internally, we believe we are coping well and these other people around us are not. But who defines what’s coking well? Who defines that? Do you define that as a retriever, as a fellow retriever in your family? And you maybe feel like you’re responding better than somebody else because why? Because your behaviors are not the same? Because you’re not pouring your heart out and talking about it because you’re, you know, being stoic and and maybe you have that German heritage, like I see so often in my area, and like I do in my family, where, you know, we’re strong. We don’t talk about it. Like, it’s, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry on. You can’t change it. Death comes, it happens to everybody. Minimizing it. Is that you? I don’t know how well you’re coping then either.
So I just want to highlight that who’s defining coping well versus not coping well. And just reflect on how you’re responding. And just because someone else in your family is responding differently doesn’t mean that they are not coping well in quotations. We can’t force people to grieve like we do. I have a tendency to I need space. I need to process my emotions first before I talk about them. To some people that may seem cold, that might come off as cold or detached. I just need time to process internally first before I can articulate what it is I’m feeling. And that takes time. And who’s to tell me how much time that should take? Right? Another aspect of this is that every relationship is unique. So because someone is responding differently than you, consider that their relationship is different than yours to the person who passed. You you might think that you were the closest person to that person who passed. But we never really know. We never really know. Okay. So secondly, coming back to the relationship with that person. Kind of piggypacking how relationships are unique. So Who is not coping well in quotations or choosing to respond to grief differently? The dynamics of the relationship can matter here. Right? So let’s say it’s a grandparent that’s dying. And a parent isn’t responding. You’re the grandchild and your parent isn’t responding how you would have expected or you would have thought or how you feel they should be. Right? And that can make you feel angry. That can make you feel sad. But we often don’t know the dynamics in the close relationship that, obviously, generations before us shared. Because, again, as society often is, we don’t talk about the good, the bad, and ugly. We talk about mostly the good and we sweep the bad and the ugly under the rug. We don’t talk about the painful stuff. We don’t talk about the, you know, maybe it was codependency in our relationship. Maybe we don’t talk about how, you know, maybe maybe that parent felt smothered by their by their parent, by your grandparent, or maybe they felt so loved and so close that the thought of that person dying, the thought of their parent dying is too painful, and so they completely detach. And that’s not a response you would expect.
You know, we can have painful responses to grief when it hits us, when we realize, when we accept this is what’s happening. I can’t control it. I can’t do anything about it. And so we can run Like often many people do, we choose to run from our emotions, resort to what we know from growing up, behaviors that we resorted to, to cope, when things got hard, or we can embrace the grief as a family, as a unit, and talk about these things, but we often don’t. Where there could be compassion and understanding, instead there’s resentment and anger and frustration and sadness, Sadness will be there regardless, but all these are the things wrapped in there. And this is why grief is so messy because relationships are unique. And we often don’t understand the depths of those relationships of the others in our lives. Of others in our lives. You know, if it’s a sibling that passes, you know, the parent had a different relationship with that sibling than you did, obviously. And maybe you were so close with that sibling, you detached. And your parent might think, well, maybe you don’t care. And maybe you have anger and resentment towards that sibling. And you just kind of bug out and not really around and not part of the family grieving process. And often that person might be it might be the thought would be, like, they’re not coping well. But if we don’t, we don’t have these skills. We aren’t taught these skills of how to cope well. That’s my point in this episode too is like we are not taught these skills of how to cope well with grief. We just aren’t. And so it’s like calling the kettle black. Right? That’s my point in this episode too. It’s like, it’s easy to say at someone else isn’t coping well, but yet if you have not received the coping skills, for grief and pain and suffering in your life. It’s very possible and very likely that the person that you’re feeling this way towards hasn’t either. And so the only way to get to the other side of this is to have the hard conversations with the people we love. We can’t force people to have these conversations, of course. And you can’t build from a place if there wasn’t you can’t have these conversations, if there wasn’t a a foundation of trust and safety either. And so maybe that’s where you can start. How do you cultivate trust and safety within yourself? And those closest to you. And that’s where Tiff Carson, I want you to listen to that episode because, you know, she chose to love her brother through his addiction. But she shares how she got to that point. It’s a really great episode that illustrates that. And the third point, energy flows where the focus goes. So again, if your focus is on this anger and this resentment towards someone else and how they’re responding to grief in in your family. And you’re ruminating on that. That is doing nothing. That is not helping. It’s unnecessary suffering for you because really the all you have say in is how you respond. That’s all you have control over is how you choose to respond to the grief in the family. Your own grief, your personal grief. And then how can you be a light? In the darkness that is family grief. Number one, you can learn these healthy coping skills. You can learn new tools to help you, thereby helping your loved ones. And you learn those new skills and those new tools and that new knowledge through great recovery. Through my through the program, do grief differently. It’s twelve weeks. And I do have two openings right now. If you are interested, go to my website to learn more. And we meet once weekly for twelve weeks. And it is very much it’s not therapy, but it’s very much therapeutic. Very therapeutic. And you will learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible about your grief, about drawing connections between your childhood and adulthood. Because, look, these things, these patterns of behavior, these belief patterns, these thoughts that we have around grief, these This is this is where we get generational things continuing on, these beliefs continuing through generations. And the only way to break that cycle and to learn new now is to learn new knowledge and new tools. Because if you are prone to sweeping your grief under the rug to not talking about it, to, you know, so easily pointing the finger at other people that they’re not responding this way and they’re not responding that way instead of looking at what it’s bringing up for you. What connections can you draw from what you’re feeling about the person who’s not coping as you think they should, what is that bringing up for you in particular? Why does that feel so painful for you? There’s something there. And so, again, this episode wasn’t to tell you what to do.
Although new knowledge is what I would suggest. Learn new knowledge. Educate yourself around grief so you better understand it. And then opening a dialogue and conversation amongst those you you love. To be the light. Ponder these questions. Start this episode, come back to it, share it. If you have further questions for me on this episode, please put them. There’s a on Spotify, you can actually respond to this episode. Put a question there if you want. Email me victoria down leashhart dot com. Share your thoughts on this episode or have or share your questions if you have them. I’ll privately answer them or I can, you know, with permission, I can share my the question and spots on this podcast for others so we can all learn. There’s always more to learn. And we learn within the context of our relationships too. And their mirrors for us, reflecting back what we need to look at within ourselves. So thank you so much for listening. My throat is getting dry. I’ve been talking a little too much already. And so that’s my cue to end it here and to thank you. And with gratitude in my heart, Thank you for listening, and I hope you listen to future episodes. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
