Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Amidst the challenges of her daughter Dahlia’s rare condition, MERRF Syndrome, this week’s guest, Jessica Fein, also faced the crushing blows of losing her father and both sisters during the same trying period. Her story is a tapestry of sorrow and strength, woven with threads of love and loss that resonate deeply with the human experience.
The uncertainties surrounding her daughter’s diagnosis added layers of complexity to Dahlia’s health, making it a daunting task to predict her future. Jessica’s unwavering determination to advocate for her daughter, alongside the weight of her losses, paints a poignant picture of courage in the face of adversity.
As Dahlia’s health declined, necessitating intensive care and tough decisions, Jessica grappled with the harsh reality that not everything could be fixed. Her transition from seeking a cure to enhancing Dahlia’s quality of life reflects a mother’s boundless love and commitment to her child’s well-being.
Throughout the episode, Jessica’s reflections on witnessing her loved ones’ pain and her journey through grief and healing resonate with a profound sense of vulnerability and resilience. Her ability to find glimmers of joy and connection (with herself, friends, and spouse) amidst the darkness speaks volumes about the human spirit’s capacity for hope and strength amid hardship.
Jessica’s story reminds us of the intricate dance between love and loss, woven together with threads of grace and fortitude. Her journey embodies the transformative power of facing life’s most challenging trials with unwavering love, compassion, and a resilient spirit that shines through even in the darkest times.
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Embracing Joy Amidst Grief – Lessons from Dahlia’s Story
In our fast-paced world, the juxtaposition of joy and sorrow often leaves many bewildered. We tend to compartmentalize emotions, believing that happiness and sadness are mutually exclusive. However, life’s complexities defy such simplistic categorization. This profound realization came to light through a remarkable individual named Dahlia.
The Essence of Dahlia
Dahlia was an embodiment of joy despite her battles with MERRF Syndrome (Myoclonic Epilepsy with Ragged Red Fibers), a rare degenerative mitochondrial disease affecting about 2 in 1,000,000 people. Diagnosed at five years old after showing early developmental delays, she lived until seventeen radiating spunkiness and charm even as her condition worsened over time.
Her mother Jessica Fein shares how Dahlia taught her invaluable lessons on navigating life’s dichotomies—how it is possible to feel immense pain yet still find moments filled with laughter and love.
Balancing Joy And Sorrow
Jessica observed how seamlessly Dahlia managed to intertwine joy amidst suffering—a lesson reshaping our understanding of emotional coexistence:
“She was able to feel honestly everything there was—to feel like sadness or anger or jealousy—and still be joyful.”
This revelation underscores that embracing all facets—fearful anguish alongside fun-filled meaning—is essential for holistic living rather than viewing them as opposing forces.
Compartmentalization As A Coping Mechanism
One effective strategy shared by Jessica involves ‘compartmentalizing’ overwhelming situations into manageable parts akin to pointillism art technique focusing on specifics without getting daunted by the bigger picture:
“I consider myself proficient at compartmentalization which I view essential functioning amid overwhelming circumstances.”
Such mindfulness helps navigate daily challenges while preserving mental sanity during trying times like caregiving responsibilities coupled with work commitments simultaneously balancing personal aspirations too!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of grieving voices. I’m excited to share with you today my guest, Jessica Fein. She is the author of breathtaking, a memoir of family, dreams, and broken jeans. And hosts of the podcast. I don’t know how you do it, which features people whose lives seem unimaginable and who triumph over seemingly impossible challenges. Her writing has appeared in Newsweek, Psychology Today, The Boston Globe, Huffpost, scary mommy, zippy zippy Maeg, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler,
Jessica Fein: kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler, kebler,
Victoria Volk: kebler, kebler, kiabler, and and, and more. And, more. And more. And more. Jessicaiahiah, and to a rare disease in twenty twenty two. Her work encompasses hope and humor, grit and grace, the tools that make up her personal survival kit. And thank you so much for your time today and sharing your story with my listeners and myself.
Jessica Fein: Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk: And so I actually would like to start out by taking us back in time to how this rare disease came about? How you learned about it? What your daughter’s name is? First of all,
Jessica Fein: My daughter’s name is Dahlia.
Victoria Volk: Oh, what a beautiful name?
Jessica Fein: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I have a mama three, three children. My husband and I adopted from Guatemala. So we had had kind of a long and twisty road to parenthood and ultimately landed in Guatemala. And we adopted three babies, not all at the same time. Two years apart, and then two years apart. And Dahlia was our middle child. And what happened was in terms of your question regarding the rare disease diagnosis, she, from a very young age, seemed to be developing a little bit differently and a little bit slower than I thought was probably developmentally appropriate. Let’s put it that way. So her speech was garbled. She was having balance issues. You know? I had that mother’s instinct and tried to get people to pay attention, doctors, early intervention. But, you know, I was told just give a time, she’ll catch up. And it wasn’t until she was four years old that I finally got the attention of a doctor who said let’s do a hearing test. And at that time, she was diagnosed with mild to moderate hearing loss. And that was a condition that would be able to be corrected by hearing aids. But there was a question which was why? Why did she have the hearing loss? Did something happen in utero? Did she have a virus early on? We brought her back to the Boston area from Guatemala at six months. So there were a lot of question marks. And we were sent for genetic testing, which really is a blessing because so many families have to fight for a really long time to get genetic testing. In this case, we got it very quickly, and that genetic testing led to a very clear diagnosis. Another thing that doesn’t always happen. And she was diagnosed at that time with a rare degenerative mitochondrial disease called MIRF syndrome, which stands for myochronic epilepsy, ragged red fibers. Again, she was five years old, and that diagnosis seemed like crazy to us. We couldn’t understand it, couldn’t wrap our heads around it. She, you know, while I had been concerned, never my wildest dreams? Did my concerns lead me to the possibility even of something that grave? And she was the same person she had been, you know, before the diagnosis. So it was very hard to understand. And and even technically, Nobody had heard of this illness. We didn’t know what mitochondria were. We didn’t understand what a degenerative disease meant. And so then we took off on a very lengthy journey that lasted until she was seventeen. Daria died one week after her seventeenth birthday.
Victoria Volk: Wow. And do children typically I mean, what is the life expectancy generally of this
Jessica Fein: Yeah, well, so to begin with MURF syndrome is extremely rare, it’s two in a million, so there’s not really much data to go on. Also, Dahlia had a secondary diagnosis later on, which made her one of six in the world. So the thing with a rare disease is you just don’t know. Now, when we look at MIRF syndrome, what we understand is that people can be impacted even within the same family in really different ways. So, for example, when I googled it that night, there was this long list of possible ways it could manifest. And it went everywhere from short stature all the way to death. So, you know, I did what any mom does, which is two things. Number one, I read the list and I decided it was a menu and I would choose, okay, she could be short. You know, I’ll take that one. I’ll take the hearing loss that I could deal with. But when it got to things like dementia and obviously truncated lifespan, those I wasn’t I wasn’t go anywhere near that. And I felt like, you know, look, I’m the mom. I’ll solve it. I’ll fix it. Right? Because that’s what we do. We think we can fix things. And that was a big transformation for me. One of the ones I cover my book, which is understanding that there are things we can’t in fact fix. What what do we do with a world that seems so wildly out of control? And how do we create any kind of meaning in that in that situation?
Victoria Volk: How did you do that?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, it was a long it was a long journey because like I said, I decided I was gonna it. And remember, I didn’t even know what mitochondria were. So, I mean, the idea that I would fix it was totally fantastical, but and I really did try to do everything I could and I became a big advocate and I looked for every study, and I wanted to, like, travel the world and look for some kind of, you know, miracle. But ultimately, what happened was Dahlia’s disease being degenerative, was getting more and more serious. When she was nine, we were in the hospital for three months. And at that point, she had a tracheotomy which meant she had a hole in her neck with a tube that she began to that she could breathe out of because she had lost the strength in her lungs to breathe and she was ventilator dependent and she had lost her ability to speak and to eat and to move it walk it all. Ultimately, she lost her ability to move it all. But at that point, she was just in a wheelchair, she could move her arms, and she could shake her head in point and things like that. So she became too weak to participate in any studies. And I had a choice at that point because here was Dahlia, who just wanted to be a kid. Like, she wanted to have fun and snuggle and read and bake even though she couldn’t need and live a life and have a childhood. And as the mom, it was my job to facilitate that. And I learned from her in that respect, and I decided that I could not cure this disease. I would do everything possible to try to make the symptoms less to try to understand the nuances of how she could feel better with everything she was dealing with, but also to understand that I had three kids who wanted to be kids?
Victoria Volk: I’m sitting here and I’m just thinking putting myself, trying attempting to put myself in your shoes. And as a mother parent, it’s so difficult to watch your children like you said, the grief of wanting to give them their childhood, them wanting to feel like a child.
Jessica Fein: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things that I mean, I know you did your own research and what did that look like? How did you do that? And what were some of the things that helped you advice that people gave? I mean, did you connect with other parents who Yeah. Paid full time caregivers and you know, of
Jessica Fein: Right. So and first of all, yes. We seeing your child suffer is unbearable. And let look. Yeah.
I have a seventeen year old. And yesterday, I got a text a very healthy mainstream seventeen year old. Okay? And so he was at school yesterday and something happened in one of the classes and a couple of the kids were mean to him. And he texted me. I mean, he was not even that upset about it, but I was, like, wait, are they being mean to you? And and he was, like, kind of. And I was, like, you know, totally devastated if my stuff occurred. And I was, like, you know, wanted to, like, run into the high school and be, like, stuff. You know? So so that’s how we are as parents. Right? So what do you do when you have, you know, this this very serious, serious, as serious as it gets situation? And, you know, I did not at the time connect with too many other people. I did become part of my do action, which is the mitochondrial disease advocacy and research education group. And I’m actually on the board of that, but I didn’t at the time connect with too many other parents. I have since my daughter died connected with way more people in the community, partly because of my own podcast, partly because of my writing, So I now know so many people and I do know what a lifeline other people going through it can be. And it doesn’t need to be people go, you know, it’s not going to be in my case, other people whose kids have MRF syndrome. It’s too rare. But it’s other people whose kids are medically complex or have rare diseases, who are child loss, who, you know, have intense special needs, all those things, parents whose lives look so dramatically different than what they had envisioned. But at the time I didn’t, and there were a few reasons. Number one, I didn’t have time. I was working full time. My daughter was an eyes on patient from age nine to seventeen, which meant she was home but our home was an ICU of sorts and myself or my husband or a nurse trained specifically in her care had to have our eyes on her twenty four seven. He was very intense and I became a highly skilled medical provider of her medical needs. I mean, it was intense. And so between working full time and then being a full time caregiver and then trying to create this childhood and this environment for my three kids and also writing a book at that time, I didn’t really have time to connect with many people in the community. So to your question of, what did I do? I first of all, so, so, so lucky to have a great partner and my husband. And that’s not always the case. I mean, you have single parents going through something like this, or you have parents who aren’t on the same page. And we know that more than fifty percent of couples who have a kid with special needs, let alone living on the precipitously, split up. So that that was a real blessing, you know. And for us, that we had each other. And I have some other, you know, really close friends. I couldn’t I didn’t see people very much, but people that I knew were there were my corner. And also my husband and I try to give each other some space to have some time to ourselves because that can so easily get lost in this situation. And I will say, because I know we’re talking about grief in general, that a couple of things along this journey, I did lose all of my family members in terms of my family of origin. And that is part of my story in my book, which is losing two sisters and three parents, which happened a lot in the way. And so I’m very reluctantly familiar with all kinds of grief. And it’s not just the grief of losing somebody, but it is other kinds of grief, what I call non hallmark kinds non hallmark card kinds of grief. Right? So ambiguous grief, for example, was something that I became very familiar with. I’m not sure if that’s something that you’ve talked about much on your show, but, you know, there there are so much loss that can even precede or surround or be separate from loss that comes from a death. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I I just talk about grief. Whether it’s I the labels might be helpful, you know, to understand it, but Yeah. As far as, like, healing and stuff like that, I don’t know that I yeah. It’s just all grief to me. Yeah.
Jessica Fein: But for me, it was a real eye opener because I didn’t under stamp that there were other kinds of grief. And I didn’t feel like it was appropriate at the time to be grieving when my daughter was here. It was in front of me. It was alive. And I really, for me, it was such an important thing to understand that there are other kinds of grief. And it is okay. And we can grieve a life we had imagined. And we can grieve a voice we’ll never hear again. And, you know, all of these other kinds of things. We can grieve for somebody who’s still alive. And for me, That was very helpful because once I understood that this was valid and that this was real and that this had a name, it took away some of the power and it allowed me to integrate that grief and to move forward more effectively.
Victoria Volk: So you lost three parents and your two sisters during that eight year span that you it was twenty four seven.
Jessica Fein: Well, my I lost I mean, my my first sister actually had died when she was thirty. So that and I was twenty seven. So that was the first major major loss. And then my mother and my father and my father-in-law died during that time as well as my older sister. That’s a lot. It’s a lot. And, you know, it wasn’t like they were all together. It wasn’t like everybody you know, sometimes when you think about a whole family dying, it’s like, though, they were all in a car. Mhmm. I’ll take that. It’s not like a hierarchy. It’s not better or worse
Victoria Volk: than ever.
Jessica Fein: But this was like one one offs. And it was also not like there was something that was running in the family. This was like just, you know, all all different kinds of things. So it it’s it’s pretty inconceivable. And yet, that’s what happened.
Victoria Volk: And yet, here you said,
Jessica Fein: And yet here I sit and it’s interesting because I know it sounds, it’s like when I’m telling my story to somebody who I’m just meeting, it it’s like I now I have written about it. I can speak about it. And it’s so much to take in. And I have two friends who are therapists who said to me, my goodness, if you were to come and just be telling me all this, I’d be like, oh, she’s I don’t even know there were some like a diagnosis of like that can’t possibly be true, that can’t possibly be with that because it seems so crazy and yet when you’re in something like this and underlying all of it is this intense care and intense situation and this life on the precipice, you you integrate it and and move forward. Like, there’s no time to be to lay in the fetal position. Like, there’s no time to be on the bathroom floor crying. Twenty four seven. You can’t. You cannot.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that tends to go to the wayside when the life life, like, just throws, you know, the shit our way, basically, is our self care and just caring for the self. And so how what did that look like for you amidst all of that?
Jessica Fein: Was I’m really glad you asked that because and I actually talked about this in the book. Working outside of the home was important to me, and I did get judged for it because there were people, even medical caregivers in our home, who felt that it wasn’t appropriate for me to continue working. And to be clear, I was the primary breadwinner and this life was expensive that we were living and nobody questioned my husband working. But I will say that when we talk about self care, Part of that to me was getting out of the house and working in a job that I knew how to do that I had been doing before I became a mother. That was very helpful for my identity. And that was also I think an important break during the day. Mhmm. And I think it was able to make me more present when I was home. So that was one thing. Another thing for self care for me was I’m I’m not like a big exerciser, but I did start to do pilates and just having this like twice a week that I would get out of the house and do this thing. Was also a nice break. And then also when we talk about self care, I think that the writing was important for me. You know, I wrote the book while at my daughter’s bedside. And I think that that was a really important outlet. And it allowed me to tell my story my way, which meant I was able to make some order out of the chaos. So I think those were things, oh, the other thing for self care is that my husband and I as much as we could did a date night until COVID hit, we really kept that up. And it was complicated because in order for us to go out together, we needed to have two people at home, a nurse and a babysitter because we have these two other kids and also the nurse was not a babysitter. She does not be hired to entertain. So we would need a team of two. Which first of all is an expensive proposition. But second of all, we needed to make sure that they got a lot. I mean, I remember we had this one nurse and babysitter and the babysitter was like part of our family. And afterwards, she was like, I was really uncomfortable with that nurse. You know what I mean? So that’s like a whole other dynamic. So it was complicated, but getting out of the house for about two hours on a Saturday night was such a sense of normalcy for us because our lives were so abnormal. So to be able to do that. And every night, every Saturday, we’d get in the car, and we’d look at each other, and we’d say, we’ve never needed a date more. And every Saturday night, it would be true, even more so than the week before, you know? And so So there were those things. I think it was having I think what all of these things did, whether it was the writing or the Pilates or the date night or whatever is my work. It gave me an identity separate from being the mom slash caregiver. And I think that’s important, you know, for anybody in any situation.
Victoria Volk: When you were describing you and your husband getting into the car and recognizing that you never needed to date night more, I physically, like,
Jessica Fein: I just had this That is what we would do. Literally, it was that huge exhale and the looking at each other. And I always you know, it didn’t even matter, like, if we were engaging on that date night or if we were just sitting there in if we had the one restaurant, it was close by, so we knew we weren’t, you know, we do what we were gonna do. We would go there. We still go there pretty much once a week. And, yeah, just to have that that ability to be outside of all the other roles that had become such an integrated part of our lives.
Victoria Volk: I think that’s a key point what you said is to put yourself in a different role. And in that moment, you too could be husband and wife.
Jessica Fein: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And connect.
Jessica Fein: Mhmm. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: And one thing too, like, people may be listening and something that comes up for me as I’m hearing you share is many people who experience a child that is a lot of care or what have you. They have that support system around them as in the parents. Sometimes even the grandparents move in to help support and care and you didn’t have that either.
Jessica Fein: We didn’t have that either. And I will say that That was another thing I was dealing with. So my eldest sister had lung cancer, and she was diagnosed in the middle of all this. And I was kind of her primary person, and it was insane. It was so out of the blue and that was a whole other ride. So I was really torn. I mean, we talk about the sandwich generation caring for our children and our elderly parents at the same time. This was like triple decker sandwich or something because I had the sibling thing too. And it was really hard and I did I did, you know, I think that what I was going through may just compounded, was compounded by the other losses and those became so much more present for me because I so wanted to be able to just like you know, cry to my mom and and, you know, be be parented. Right? And and when for a while, I was taking care of my parents. And then when they weren’t here, it was incredibly lonely.
Victoria Volk: And that brings me to the topic of friendships. I mean, you probably didn’t even have time for friendships, and maybe the friendships you had fell away because you know what happens too.
Jessica Fein: I will say, I’m very lucky that I have a circle of friends, people I’ve been friends with since I was a kid. And the reason I feel so fortunate about that is because I feel like meeting new friends when you’re going through such intense things. Is so hard. Right? Unless it’s people who are also going through intense things. But it’s too much to catch somebody up on. You know what I mean? It’s just like it’s a lot. So what we were going through was so unrelatable that people who knew me before, that became very, very important for me. Even knowing they were there, they weren’t in Boston, you know, they’re all over the place, but knowing that I had these people was important to me. And I think that we see in grief, right, how hard it is to maintain friendships because people are so awkward and they’re so uncomfortable, and they don’t know what to say. And God forbid, they bring up your kid’s name, which is all you really want to talk about. You know? But they just don’t know what to do, and this is such a problem is that we’re just, as a society, so uncomfortable. And it always blows my mind because I feel like grief is the single most universal thing.
Like, every single person is going to be a grieffer. And yet, we’re so awkward. We’re so weird about it, where it should be the great unifier.
Victoria Volk: That’s what I talk about. On the podcast, like, that’s what I talk about. It is the one thing that unites us all that none of us differ on. Like, we all like, we are all creepers.
Jessica Fein: We are all creepers. Every single week of us
Victoria Volk: at a
Jessica Fein: hundred percent, like, And and with all other life cycle events, we understand how to be there, how to show up, how to sit with somebody in all other life cycle things, and yet when it comes to the thing that is the loneliness. And the thing that is the most universal, we don’t know how to do it. We don’t know how to show up. We don’t know how to sit in the silence. Right?
Victoria Volk: And that brings me to the question of how were you taught as a child to grieve and express grief, and how was it what beliefs were passed down to you about grief in your household growing up?
Jessica Fein: You know, I don’t really remember too much from growing up. What I remember with every cell of my being is the sudden death of my sister when I was twenty seven and she was thirty. And she was my best friend and we had been on the phone this morning, that morning, excuse me, and she died suddenly that afternoon. And that changed my worldview, more than any other loss. Even more, I will say, than the loss of my child because by the time that I lost Dahlia, which everybody will say, the worst thing that can happen is losing a child. And I’m not saying what’s worse and not worse. I’m just saying that that first loss changed my worldview. Because before that, I saw the world through a bubble. Right? I was looking at a bubble every, you know? And that loss punctured the bubble. Then I saw the world through the clarity of the puncture, not through the hazy sheen of the bubble. Right? It changed everything for me. And I think that I probably then I was not living with my parents at the time, but I had them as models of how it is possible to carry on, which they both did. After losing their child. Right? And so it was forever altering for them. And they were absolutely different people on the other side of it and they carried on and they engaged in the world and they had lives, you know. And and I think that probably that somehow sunk in that it was possible to have an other side, to have, you know, life on the other side of what seems like, how can you continue on?
Victoria Volk: Is do you what’s your sister’s name? Both sisters.
Jessica Fein: Yes, my first sister and thank you for asking. Her name is Noomi and my other sister who died of lung cancer more recently is Rachel.
Victoria Volk: Do you speak about them in your book too?
Jessica Fein: Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, the book opens with the with the sudden death of my sister, Noomi. It’s not a big piece of it, but I couldn’t tell the story without starting with that because it was a life changing for me. And then Rachel’s a character in the book because that happened much more recently and so out of the blue. I mean, they were both out of the blue, but one was like totally out of the blue sudden and then of course lung cancer we know can happen you know, when you’re diagnosed with stage four lung cancer, often that means that you don’t have a boatload of time.
Victoria Volk: What were the lessons that you learned from the loss? Of the grief of your sister your first sister. Know me since that was the one that kinda cracked you open. Yeah. What are what are the things that Dahlia taught you about grief then too?
Jessica Fein: Oh, two very different answers and so important both of them. With know me, what I learned was I never would nor would I want to get over the loss of my sister. This is not something I was trying to put behind me. It was something I was trying to figure out how to bring forward in a healthy way with me because she is such a core part of who I am and it was very important that I mean, I I would never want to not be grieving for her. Like, I can’t even imagine that. So it was not how are you gonna get over it. It was how are you going to move along with it? And And that was, you know, a learning because I didn’t know much personally about grief before that. Dahlia, I learned everything. I mean, here was a kid who lost everything that a kid has. She couldn’t move at all. She couldn’t speak. She couldn’t eat. She couldn’t run. She couldn’t, you know, she couldn’t do all of these things.
And she did not become bitter, angry. You know, all the things that I think I would become. She wanted to continue to have have joy. And and not in a, like, kind of denial kind of way, but in a like, this is my life. Like, I want to be out there. I want to be experiencing it. So so watching her do that made me realize that joy and sorrow can live side by side. They can hold hands. You can have grief and you can have beauty. And all of these things that I would have thought were mutually exclusive, fear and anguish and anxiety and, you know, moving or all the things. And then on the other side, you know, joy and fun and meaning and all these things like they can all be intertwined. And in fact, I think they become stronger in the presence of the other.
Victoria Volk: I’m just trying to imagine how, like, did you compartmentalize, like, when you would come into the room and, like, just I mean, because you essentially have to, in some respect, like, set your your stuff aside, right, to fully be present with her
Jessica Fein: Okay. I think I’m the queen of compartmentalization. I think I’m like, I don’t even know if it’s a good thing or a bad thing or whatever, but I do think it’s key to for me to being able to function because, you know, here, the the situation was too big to take it all in at any time. It would have blown us down. We couldn’t do that. I compare it to a pointalism, you know, the the kind of art where when you’re standing up close, you just see the the dots. And you have to back up to be able to tell that it’s, you know, a canoe or a field or whatever it is in the picture. We couldn’t back up. We couldn’t take in the big picture. It was too big. We had to be real up close and understand what each point was and and be attending to each point. And it wasn’t until after Dahlia passed away that I felt that I could back up and begin to take in the enormity.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that I had a previous guest on, she is the author of always a sibling.
Jessica Fein: Yes. Andy Orangestein.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Have you read the book?
Jessica Fein: No. But I have it, and I’m about to speak, I I have an upcoming thing where we’re gonna be together,
Victoria Volk: and she’s coming on my show. So Awesome. Yeah. She is wonderful. And one thing that I didn’t really think about until reading her book was that and she came on my podcast, was that our siblings are the people that know us the best who they’re the longest relationships that we have. And so for you when you shared about Nomi and how that grief was harder, in some respect.
Jessica Fein: That’s right because I have never been a day on this earth without her. Mhmm. Twenty seven years she was by myself. For, you know, the second that I came into the world, she was, like, celebrating me. And we, you know, they’re they’re that connection.
There’s nothing like it. And I remember at the time and I will say, she had been married for five years when she died and she had been with her husband three years before that. K? So I remember so vividly thinking even right then, his goal will be ultimately to move on. Right?
His goal is going to be you know, here’s a young guy and they had a baby. And ultimately, I mean, he’d always remember her, but this would end up being an eight year chapter of his life. And his goal would be to move on. And I say that with all the love in the world for him, but that that was the situation. Whereas my goal was to hold on, I’d never wanted to let her go. And, yeah, I mean, a sibling relationship, I think it’s interesting that that, you know, Annie said that and and I understand it because you it is the longest relationship that they know you in a way nobody else will ever know. When you have a good, healthy, great, and in my case, when you have a sibling who’s your best friend. And also like she shared too, they fill the gaps of your childhood. Like, totally. There’s they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And that’s why, you know, earlier when we were talking about my friendship circle, I’ve got some friends that I’ve had since, like, eight years old. And so I think they now have stepped into that role, and they know all the players you know, and they’ll remind me. Remember when your mom, you know, because we all grew up together. And that’s why those friendships are so important. I mean, you know, for other reasons too, but but right?
They are the the safekeepers of your history.
Victoria Volk: That’s so true. Like, I have friendships since I was in five kindergarten. Like, we’re still close and I cherish those. Yeah. For sure. What is the one thing that you would say to parents who and I know we kind of alluded to it or kinda started this podcast talking about how you have three children. But so many parents I know we’re jumping around here a lot because you’ve had, you know, such a variety of losses, but when parents seem to struggle with the question who have lost a child, how many children do you have? And, you know, I
Jessica Fein: was like, well, do I say, do I even get into it if I had a child lost? Like, you know, if I have my kids with me and there’s there’s four, but I actually have five. And do I say I have five? Or where’s the fifth one? You know? Like, how how do you navigate that? Yeah. So what I would say is to every parent, It is entirely up to you at any given moment. How you want to answer that question? If you are in a place where you don’t feel that the person asking it is a safe place or if you’re with other people or if you just don’t want to get into it, say what you want. Say to if you’ve lost your third. That’s fine. You don’t have to feel guilty about that. This is up to you and it is how you are going to feel best and safest. I will say I am the mother of three. I believe I will always be the mother of three. I often think about it with somebody who had one child and lost one child, but But the inevitable next question always is how old are they? And then what happens is you find yourself apologizing to the person, listen, I’m sorry, this is gonna be really hard for you. Right? But I got because you know you’re about to make them so uncomfortable, So it is a total minefield as is so much else.
The question, how are you? Is a total minefield? Right? Like, what am I supposed to If I’m feeling okay in that moment and I say, oh, you know, things are good, then you feel totally guilty. Like, how could I answer the question that way? Mhmm. Right? And I mean, there’s so much we just there’s so much we make ourselves feel bad about, and we don’t need to do that. We need to do what’s gonna be in that moment. And you can run into two people in the grocery store and feel like you wanna answer that question two different ways.
It’s okay. It’s up to you. You know? I will find myself I I I for me, I just can’t imagine saying, I’m a mom of two. I can’t. Dahlia is such a huge part of who I am, you know? Just like it’s very, very hard for me when people say, oh, do you have siblings?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Exactly. I was just I was thinking that too. It’s it’s kinda nice sort of thing.
Jessica Fein: Yeah. I always will have to I mean, I’m always I’m the youngest of three.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Well, that actually brings up another question because I didn’t assume you had more siblings, but I thought maybe there was a chance you had more siblings and I didn’t ask. And now you’re in now it’s I
Jessica Fein: am orphaned. Yes. Yes. I know. And when my eldest sister was diagnosed, we had lost our parents and our other sister. And she said to me, I’m gonna be okay because no god would ever do that to you. And that’s what she believed. It would be There’s no way that reality that is my reality now that that could happen. And I suppose as I get older, it will be less shocking because it’ll be more in the natural order of things. But I’m nowhere near the age yet when one would expect that, you know,
Victoria Volk: That just made me well up. Yeah. I know on your website, you talk about you mentioned the personal survival kit, and you’ve talked about I think you have alluded to Grace the grace you give yourself, the grace you give others. But what does hope and humor and grit look like for you in your healing?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, hope, I’m I’m a big believer in hope. And I think what we hope for changes all the time, for a while I hoped for a cure, and then that wasn’t going to happen. Then I hoped she wasn’t in pain, or I hoped we’d be able to have a successful outing that afternoon or I hope, you know, but but the idea of living without hope is not compelling to me. And I think that we get to choose if we want to be hopeful about things.
And we get to choose what we want to be hopeful about. As for humor, I think you can always find humor. I mean, as long as you’re willing to open yourself up to dark humor, there’s there’s humor. I mean, life is ridiculously humorous and, you know, ridiculously punishing and all the other things. But but I I feel like humor is important too. And and in my writing, I mean, that is probably one of the things I hear most often is, oh my god, I did not expect your book to be funny. You know, people will say, I expected to cry, I didn’t expect to laugh this much. So, you know, fair, fair, you know, warning or promise to anybody who’s gonna pick it up, hopefully, you will feel an array of things when you read the book. You gotta have grit to carry through. I mean, you have to be able to pull on the the the rain boots and get on, put yourself in the muck every day. And that to me was the grit. It was getting up and doing it again day after day after day.
Victoria Volk: And I would also want to ask because I I did think of another question. I’ll circle back to that. But were there any books that you because you had books on your thing too and you’re a avid reader and you’re a writer. So are there any books that you would recommend that you found most supportive to you as you were going through all of this?
Jessica Fein: Yeah. Well, I’m a huge reader and I would say that for me. And, you know, when you talked about self care earlier on, I didn’t mention, but reading for me. And and at the time, in particular, I just wanted to read fiction. Anything that’s gonna take me out of my situation. So I would say that for me. And then in the book, I do talk about three other books. One is or or three other authors who meant a lot to me. One was James Baldwin, who whose life situation couldn’t have been more different from mine, but wrote so much about people meeting tragedy and standing up to tragedy rather than letting it blow them down, and that was very important to me. Also Mary Oliver is an amazing poet, and her work just really, really was was very important to me. And then my father was a writer in reading his his words and understanding what he had to say about loss, having he had written a book about the loss of my sister. So that was very important to me as well. Yeah. It was and and I quote him quite a bit in my book.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. You also have on their cores cores corners of beauty? What is that? Yeah.
Jessica Fein: And that’s a big part of my book as well, which is this idea that I’m talking about a letter that I received from my father. I he had left me some letters to read after he died. And we talk about creating a world of beauty and where that’s like a really tall order. And none of us really can do that effectively. We’re not that powerful, but we can create corners of beauty. That’s something that’s within each of our control. And that can be how you respond to somebody you see out in the world who maybe needs a hand. That can be how you make something out of a lousy situation, a horrible situation that can be having a candle light dinner in your daughter’s room next to the beeping monitors. You’ve created a little corner of beauty. So corners of beauty is something that I think is in all of our control.
Victoria Volk: That that’s juicy. That is really juicy. I think there’s something there for you to really dig into and elaborate on if you haven’t already. I’ve I’m not assuming you haven’t, but if you haven’t, like that that’s very intriguing to me. That’s I love that.
Thank you for
Jessica Fein: Thank you. Alright. So maybe that’s book maybe that’s the follow-up.
Victoria Volk: And also writing it down. And of course, because you had that on your website as well, writing it down, and writing was very much therapeutic for you. It sounds like at the bedside of your daughter. And Yeah. And having that emulated for you too by your father, I bet that was such a gift.
Jessica Fein: It really it really was. And, you know, one of the things that I learned from it was that his book was not a book about my sister, but he handed me the manuscript. He said he wrote a book about Noomi and I read it, and I said, this isn’t a book about Noomi. This is about your know me. If I were to write a book about know me, it would be a totally different book. And that was really important to me. I’m sure if my husband were to write a book about what we went through, it would be a totally different book. Right? I mean, people are so different for each of us. And even the very same loss or the same situation, you know, two parents of the same kid or two siblings of the third sibling. It’s a different loss.
Victoria Volk: Because all relationships are unique. Exactly. And so how can I ask this is my last question and because I you brought it up and I I actually wrote it down? Husband grief. Like, how Yeah.
Jessica Fein: He it’s totally different. I mean, he would never in a thousand a million years have a conversation like we’re having. Right? I find it I would talk about this all day long because for me, it’s an opportunity to bring my family, my losses forward, to have them be present, to tell their stories, to allow people to get to know them, So it’s very, very important for me. And I am so grateful for the opportunity to to do that. My husband is much more private, so he’s very supportive of me doing what I want to need to do, but think he doesn’t even like to come to my book reading. He still likes it in the background and maybe, you know, so he can sneak out if he needs to because he’s a much more internal private person. And I think that that’s, you know, we need to be able to respect that we’re all gonna go through it in our own way. And there’s no wrong way. And there’s no timeline. That’s a big thing. I see a lot of people. I see a lot of people out there who say, well, jeez, it’s been x number of to, you know, why isn’t that a person over it yet? And it’s like, no. No. That’s really why
Victoria Volk: I started this podcast was to, you know, banish the misinformation and the myths of grief and all these things that were taught like time heels and grief alone and replace the loss and, you know, these behaviors that we find ourselves doing to bypass our feelings and not feel them. Right? And to feel better in that period of time. And so, you know, what may have destroyed another couple sounds like it really just brought you two together and allowed you each to honor each other the losses and the way that you found helpful for you as individuals, and I think that’s a beautiful thing. Is there anything that you would like to share that you don’t feel you’ve got too that you feel is important?
Jessica Fein: No. I think that this this covered it. And you know, I love, as I’ve mentioned, connecting with people on these topics, and I invite people to connect me on social or well, first, please check out the book. You know, wherever you get your books. Whether that’s Amazon or BookShop dot org, Barnes and Noble, breathtaking. And, you know, I’m having some really interesting conversations with book groups who are reading it together, and I’ll go to any book group I’ll zoom in or whatever if if people choose to read it with with some friends. And then, you know, yeah, my website is where I keep up to date on everything in terms of, you know, other writing I’m doing, events that are happening. So, yeah, you can check that out at jessica find stories dot com and that’s fine at the EIN because post people hear it and think it’s the other way. So just the fine stories dot com.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And we say fine and grief recovery. We say fine as feelings inside not expressed and that is not you.
Jessica Fein: So That is that’s alright. That’s very funny.
Victoria Volk: I look forward to checking out myself. I love me some dark humor. So thank you so much for being my guest. I will put all of the links in the show notes and thank you for sharing your warrior story. Really? It’s a warrior through grief. And, you know, we all don’t have to do some grand things with our grief and share it with the world. But if you can connect with other people, like, and create those corners of beauty like you shared, That’s healing. So thank you for sharing your story because storytelling is healing too. Storytelling is healing.
Jessica Fein: And I also, you know, I didn’t mention I do a column in psychology today called grace and grief. You can find that online. I write a lot about not only our own individual grief, but how you can support others in their grief. So if people wanna check that out. Thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
I’m excited to share this episode with Amanda Popovski, in which we discuss everything related to being an empath or highly sensitive person (HSP).
I could feel the energy behind the words Amanda used in her application, and the synergy I felt with her was one of being a kindred spirit. Sometimes, there are people in this world you click with, and it was refreshing not only to be and feel seen by Amanda but, more importantly, I hope she felt seen by me as well.
This episode is a masterclass of sorts for empaths (HSPs). We discuss everything from personal growth and evolution as an empath (HSP), the energetics of what it means to be an empath (HSP), how it shows up in our lives, the challenges we face as empaths (HSPs) in a world that isn’t exactly fully accepting of us deeply feeling and emotional beings, and how we can leverage this energy as our superpower.
From childhood experiences as an empath (HSP), leaving corporate (against her family’s wishes), people-pleasing, entrepreneurship, dating, friendships, and everything in between, I hope you feel seen in this episode, if you find, like myself and Amanda, where being an empath (HSP) has just seemed to feel like a cruel curse at times.
This is a love note from Amanda and me to all empaths and HSPs.
Dear fellow empaths/HSPs,
You are a powerful and necessary force that is deeply needed in the fabric of humanity. 💛
RESOURCES:
CONTACT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Your Sensitivity and Setting Boundaries with Amanda Popovskiy
In a recent episode of the podcast “Grieving Voices,” hosted by Victoria had an insightful conversation with Amanda Popovskiy, a life and business coach for women. Both highly sensitive people (HSPs) and empaths, they delved into topics that resonate deeply with many individuals who share these traits. This blog post will expand on their discussion, offering additional context, insights, and practical applications.
Understanding High Sensitivity
The Journey of Self-Acceptance
Amanda shared her journey from pursuing a degree in Spanish to founding her digital marketing agency and eventually becoming a life coach. Her path was marked by personal challenges related to being an HSP and empath. These traits often made her feel overwhelmed but also endowed her with deep empathy—a double-edged sword she has learned to wield effectively.
Example: Imagine feeling every emotion around you intensely—joy becomes exhilarating but sadness can be paralyzing. For HSPs like Amanda, everyday interactions can sometimes lead to emotional overload.
Childhood Experiences
Both Amanda and Victoria recounted their childhood experiences as highly sensitive individuals. They often felt different from their peers—Amanda described herself as an “old soul” who found solace in introspective activities like reading.
Insight: Many HSPs may have similar experiences where they feel more mature or emotionally aware than those around them during childhood. Recognizing this early on can help parents support their sensitive children better.
Reframing Sensitivity as Strength
From Curse to Superpower
Initially perceived as burdensome, sensitivity was reframed by both speakers over time through setting boundaries and self-acceptance. They recognized it not just as something to manage but also as a strength that allows deeper connections with others.
Practical Application: Start viewing your sensitivity not merely as something negative but acknowledge its positive aspects too—such as heightened empathy which enables you to understand others profoundly.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Grieving Voices, which I am highly excited about because I’m a highly sensitive person and my guest who is joining me is also a highly sensitive person in Empath. If I could find her bio. I will read it for you here in two shakes of a lamb’s tail. Let’s go. Alright. So Amanda, oh, I even practice this. Amanda Popovski.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Popovski. You got it. Popovski.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Popovski. You gotta say it like, Popovski. Yeah. Alright. It’s Macedonian,
Amanda Popovski: so it’s very, like, very like Eastern European, a lot of conviction.
Victoria Volk: Popovski. You got it. Alright. So now that we’ve got her name straight, she is a life and business coach for women. And through her action awakening process, she’s helped dozens of women go from overwhelmed and overthinking to taking great action and creating discipline that works, so they can grow their business and shine. Going from a Spanish degree to forming her own digital marketing agency to combining the corporate climbing the corporate ladder and finally taking the leap into her coaching business, Amanda has had her fair share of life transitions and has grieved her past self in each and every one of them. She’s here today to share more about the sensitive side of coaching and personal development as a highly sensitive person and path an overall emotional creature. Based in Buffalo, New York, Land of the Chicken Wing, she enjoys cuddling up with a good book, meditating and trying new recipes in her free time. And thank you so much for bringing your energy and your story to the podcast today. I as we briefly shared with each other before we started recording, I’m excited to have you on because there’s a lot of impasse and highly sensitive people that listen to this podcast because I am one and I speak to that. I have content on my website that is about that. And doing energy healing work, that’s a lot of the clients that come to me are also highly sensitive themselves. And so I’m really excited to start there in your story because I know how shitty my childhood was and the grief that came with it just being a highly sensitive empathic person, there are so many pictures of me. And I don’t have a lot. Like, all of my childhood pictures fit in a sandwich ziplock bag and if not like like this thick of a snack. And so there isn’t a lot of pictures of me, but the ones there are, there’s a lot of me sleeping. Random times of day, like, middle of the day, missing birthday parties because I’m fully clothed with my shoes on. I fell asleep on my bed and missed the birthday party. And, you know, so I’m curious to start there with your story and how what your childhood was like, being an empath and highly sensitive person.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, first of all, obviously, thank you so much for having me on. I’m really really excited to talk to you and to hopefully share some wisdom that I’ve gained in this process for your HSPs and your empaths. My childhood, it’s funny I work with my inner child a lot, but I don’t really reflect on my childhood too often. And I’ve noticed with other highly sensitive people that sometimes we just can’t remember. Like, there’s maybe some emotional overload or something that we’re just like, oh, yeah, my childhood is good and then move on to present day, at least that’s how I operate. But I very distinctly remember feeling super different from a young age, like deep down knowing that I was different and not really knowing what to do with that information. Like, I can distinctly remember being in student council and drama club and, like, doing all the things in high school. And even though I felt like I had a group of friends and I felt like I belonged somewhere, I still felt like I did not belong. Like I was this old soul, this indigo child, this person that was just really doing a lot of observing, and picking up on things, I remember I do remember kind of a super cool trick that empaths have is to be able to read between the lines and understand what people are saying without saying it. So my parents would be like in an argument or whatever, passive aggressive at each other. And in my head, I was like, it’s so obvious. Dad wants this and mom wants this. Why are they telling each other? And, you know, it wasn’t until recently that I started to use my throat chakra and actually start to speak out loud about these feelings and sensations that I had. And that’s kind of what coincided with the whole, like, food thing that we’re gonna hopefully talk about PMD, all of that. So I would say that my experience was lonely. It was I found a lot of solace in myself I found a lot of solace in my books. I found a lot of solace like rolling these huge ideas around in my head that no child probably should ever have to think about or want to think about. About the state of the world and why things are the way that they are. And for a long time, I saw my empathy as, like, this burden. Like I would speak to the universe very often, especially in my early twenties, and be like shouting at the moon, like why did you make me this way? I can’t stand it. Why can’t I just be normal? Why do I have to be different? Now luckily, I and you, I’m sure, have come to embrace the superpowers that empathy and high sensitivity gives you, but only with the introduction of very strong boundaries.
Victoria Volk: You I thought you were gonna use use the word that I use, like empathy, like, you know, highly sensitive person empathic is a curse because I felt like it was a curse for me.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How so?
Victoria Volk: It’s like, why do I have to feel things so deeply all the time? And it makes people perceive you as neurotic. Like, people would feel like people would, like, Why are you so sensitive and just get over it? And why do you read into things? It’s like reading between the lines, but it’s like, it’s No. This Like, I know now. I’m not reading into things. I’m reading between the lines. On connecting dots that you’re not seeing. And but it comes off to other people as not insightful. No. We don’t come off as insightful. And wise, So, yeah, it was definitely a curse. And and it was like, you know, why do I have to be this way? So I I yeah.
Like, kindred spirits. Yes.
Amanda Popovski: Alright. I super resonating with that actually, especially with PMDD, which is the experience it’s called premenstrual, dysmorpheric disorder, and it’s basically PMS on steroids, where the week before your period you just feel like a completely different person. Like, I’m, you know, I’m a bubbly person. I’m a happy person. But on the inside, it’s a little bit of torture. And so I can really relate to feeling super emotional all the time and having people not really understand and even in my relationships. Currently, sometimes it feels difficult to be like, how are you not experiencing all of the things that I’m experiencing? And what I love about what you said is that we’re reading between the lines, yes, but we’re reading the energy, really. Mhmm. It’s what we’re reading. And that’s the stuff that most people think is between the lines or can’t really perceive. But we have this beautiful gift of being able to read and interpret a language that is really the whole creative spirit of the universe. It’s really cool. It’s a blessing. I think after all this time. I think
Victoria Volk: Yeah. In hindsight. Yeah. Yeah. You can talk about after we’ve implemented boundaries. Right? Which we will get to. But I just wanna share just because it’s at the forefront of my mind when you talked about PMDD because I haven’t been personally diagnosed with that, but just how you described it, like, oh, yeah, maybe that’s been my issue. And because I would just turn into this like, oh, anger, snappy, brain fog, like, all these things, but I’m gonna share something with you because I’m, like, in the perimenopause and that then that just adds another layer to things. Right? But I was listening to a podcast with Dr. Stacy Sims on Huberman Lab and it’s an excellent episode on Perry Menopause and Menopause, Women in Health, and Fitness, and all of that. And one thing that she suggested or shared with listeners was a supplement called DIM, d I m, two hundred milligrams a day. And I thought, you know what, what the heck? I’ll try it. It’s especially helpful for women who are estrogen dominant. And I I have been on this now. I have not shared publicly in my newsletter, which I plan to this next newsletter because I want to give it a full month. I’ve been on it a full month. And they are legitly a game changer. Have been for me? Yes. It’s like And it’s literally like a crap ton of broccoli and cauliflower in a little pill. It’s unrealistic. It’s natural, but it helps your body excrete excess estrogen. And I tell you what, I’ve been more productive in this past month than I have in several months and my mood Definitely. My mood, they are my happy pills. I’m legitimately there. My happy pills. This is not a sponsorship episode. This is not an affiliation or anything. I’m legitimately sharing what is been the biggest game changer for me. I am ever so grateful for her for sharing that. I’ve shared it with my friends. People that I’m, you know, know and love who, you know, what it’s that it’s working for me. And it’s definitely really helped me. And, you know, this is after, like, going through a cycle now and another yeah. So it’s been a full month. And I’m hooked. I’m hooked. So
Amanda Popovski: any little bit helps, I think. Yeah. But it’s simply that it’s natural. That’s so beautiful.
Victoria Volk: I know. I know. Yeah. So anyway, not to derail what you were talking about. But yes, it’s like all these different layers of of And then you get to that period, menopause, menopause, and it’s like, as a highly sensitive person, buckle up.
Amanda Popovski: So I’ve heard.
Victoria Volk: So I Yeah. So how did, like, now as an adult, like, how what did how did the boundaries come about for you then? And how did that then shift dynamics and relationships? Because I know what implementing boundaries did to some of my relationships, which it can friends just really kind of fade in the background when you when you start to, you know, use your throat chakra. Right? And speaking up and using your voice for the first time often because as empaths and highly sensitive people we’re often taken advantage of, you know, our emotionally responsive energies can, you know, people not everybody can sit with people in their deepest pain. And so we are very good at that, but it can also be very draining on us if we’re not looking at our own energy and managing our own energy. And energy healing work has been huge for me in that regard as well as boundaries. So what did that look like for you?
Amanda Popovski: Well, the first thing that came to my mind while you were talking about this is that as empaths, we are chameleons. So we if if anybody is not an empath, basically what it means is that what the other person is feeling, you viscerally feeling your body. It’s like It’s like they’re kind of their energy overtakes your energy. You’re kind of thinking what they’re thinking. You’re feeling what they’re feeling. And in hindsight, I think the power of us is not to be chameleons. But to be like a gazelle, like something beautiful that’s sitting there peacefully listening, but then goes around and treats us around really beautifully and like sends their sparkle of everywhere. So my chameleoning really came to an end or was highly influenced by the first self help book I ever read, which was you are a badass by Gencicero, and it actually kick started my entire coaching career and everything that I would go on to do. But something in me clicked and I realized that I had a purpose that was so much greater than like a ninth five or a box or something. And I was like, yeah, I’m made for more and that’s really important to me and I need to figure out what the heck that more is in my lifetime. So I started the self development journey as I’m sure many of your people are on. And I had always heard the word boundaries. They sounded kind of harsh to me. They sounded like something that only highly aggressive or action take any people would set. I was like, I don’t need to set boundaries, whatever. But I noticed that the more that I tuned into the fact that I was an energetic channel and that sometimes that energy did not make me feel good. I was like, no. No. No. I I can’t be a part of that because I have a big purpose. So it was less about Over time, it has become less about hurting other people’s feelings and more seeing boundaries as a sign of self respect and reflecting on the fact that boundary people, resourced people in my life are some of the coolest people that I look up to so much. And recognizing that when they set a boundary with me, I feel safe. And when I set a boundary with someone else as difficult as it is, I feel safe too. So it’s funny you bring up friends because I remember the first major friend breakup I had was so painful for me. It was so hard. I leaned into the self development books. I was like, okay. Yeah. This person is an energy vampire. I gotta get him out, blah blah blah. But then to sit down and have that conversation, again, it’s like that person’s energy overtakes your body. And so What I had to learn to do really was follow my intuition very deeply. And if my intuition, that little voice in the back of my head was still like, you gotta let her go, then I would follow through on that and trust that I was held in that decision. Trying to think of the first time that I set a boundary and what that might have been or felt like. Yeah. The first time I set a boundary was actually breaking up with my boyfriend very shortly after I read that self development book. And on paper, he was perfect. Our relationship was perfect, but I remember feeling energetically in my body, like, this isn’t right. I don’t think I wanna be with him. I don’t think I’m going to marry him long term. And so I’ve noticed that once I’ve set those boundaries with people and with things in my life like food, social media, all of these things, I’m a better person which makes the people that stick around so much better because my energy is so golden and nourishing, like you said, to the people around me. In order for me to be the best Amanda for me and for others, I need to have some really strong energetic containers around me so that I don’t fizzle out because especially if any of your listeners or you know about work burnout or corporate burnout, it is the worst feeling. And once you experience it, then you’re like, oh, god. I gotta set some boundaries. But don’t really know how. And so I have this like micro action awakening process. Do you mind if I share it with your listeners?
Victoria Volk: Absolutely. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay.
Amanda Popovski: Cool. So this is really great for empaths because it’s a micro action awakening process. So when you’re looking to take a brave action in the moment, which in this case is setting a boundary. So do you have an example of Victoria of, like, a boundary that your listener might want to set with someone?
Victoria Volk: When others are not seeing you in your in your glory, when they’re seeing the you that you used to be. So as you’re evolutionizing yourself, as your evolving in your own growth. And the people around you are not growing themselves and you go into that environment.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, okay. Before I share this process, I need to share some quick backstory on this because like I said, I started life coaching. I don’t know if I mentioned, but I was in college. And I was a straight a four point o student and I decided to drop out. And my family did not see that coming. They did not appreciate my ambition. They thought that I was making a huge mistake, and they did not hold back from expressing their opinions on that. And one family member in particular said that I was crazy and that I should go to a mental hospital if I was really considering this decision. And I believed them, I believed them for a really long time because I was super young and I wasn’t established in my boundaries yet. And so I shifted away from coaching, like you mentioned, went to digital marketing, corporate always danced around this idea of helping people, but it wasn’t until I really confronted and faced. Those family members and said, you know what? This is my purpose. This is what I want to do. I know I believe you when you say that you think I’m crazy. I totally believe that you think that. But I don’t and I like my decisions. I like the choices that I’m making. It’s not because I’m crazy. It’s just because I’m first in my community to do that, which is a concept from Jamie Curran Lima and her book worthy. So I have so many good things to say about this, especially when it comes to close family members, about them not seeing you in your glory, seeing you still as a young woman maybe, still seeing you as their daughter, as their sister, as their niece, and feeling like they have the right to protect you and make you feel safe by sharing and smudging their fears all over you. So to this person who is stepping into their glory and their purpose that is so deeply needed on this planet. This micro action awakening process will hopefully be really helpful for you to set a boundary of I’m I’m imagining that someone is starting to say to you, but that’s not and then the brave action is for you to set a boundary vocally. The cool thing about the throat chakra is that it’s the connector between your head, chakras, and your body chakras. So like your mind may be racing, but your body knows exactly what to say, and it’s just got to bubble up from your throat. So the first step is you’re in this conversation with this person and they start running their mouth in ways that are not helpful to you. What I want you to do is take a deep breath. Okay? And what that does is not only does it ground you in the moment, but it also interrupts any neural pathway that is going in your brain that says, I shouldn’t talk back to them. Right? It’s just interrupting that pattern. And even if you do that for a week, you’re starting to interrupt that neural pattern and eventually you’ll be able to crack it and introduce something else in its place. So when we are in these moments and feeling really nervous, take a deep breath. And what I want you to do is think about your future self and or the version of you that is fully living in the story. You could consider that. You can consider your higher self if you’re a bit more woo like me. Or you can just think of somebody that’s really brave and bound read and someone that you wanna be like. And just consider what they would do in this situation. That’s not only going to break the neural pathway even further, but it’s going to connect you to a positive and long term person. Because so often we don’t speak our minds because we’re afraid of the short term discomfort, but discomfort in any emotion it never killed you. And it’s so much more important for you to speak your mind for that long term version. Than it is for you to continue to sit in wrong energy. So okay. We’ve taken a breath. We’ve thought about the most badass, sparkliest version of ourselves. And what they would do in this situation? And then we count down from five. And this is a Mel Robbins tactic. It’s five four three two one. Right? And then we do the thing. We take the brave action, we say the boundary. And The last part of this process is that when you take the brave action, I’m sure a lot of your folks are people pleasers, maybe perfectionistic to a fault. We want to do a b minus brave action rather than waiting for an a plus. So even if you stutter your words and you’re like, wait. Wait. Stop. Stop. Stop. You know? And if you think you sound like a child or whatever, whatever dynamic this person is with you, that’s going to come up and you’re going to feel your palm shaking and you’re going to feel your feet tingling and sweating. But if someone is not supporting you in your glorious purpose, and you continue to allow their opinion to influence you. You’re choosing other people and their opinions over your purpose. And that’s not good for anyone. And again, discomfort, it sucks, but it’s never gonna kill you. So basically, take a deep breath, consider this future version of yourself, push through the short term discomfort, and take the action of setting that boundary. So that you can at least start to feel free in yourself and help the people that you’re really meant to help in this lifetime.
Victoria Volk: To piggyback that, I think it’s important to be to have emotional honesty in whatever it is you articulate to, not not twist it in a way that the other person maybe you think needs to hear it or how do I wanna say that? Just what’s true for you, not what you think the other person needs you to say or, you know, don’t mince the words. Say, be impeccable with your word, basically? Yeah. Four agreements? Yeah. Four agreements.
Amanda Popovski: And to piggyback off of your piggyback so now we’re piggybacking out. A book that I think will be super helpful when it comes to boundaries is the book of boundaries by Melissa Urban, and she’s the founder of Whole30, but she’s also a rollicking badass. And she makes boundaries so accessible. She provides concrete examples of things you can say. One of the best things that I learned from that book is to be clear but kind or to be No. No. Clear is kind. Clear is kind. So if you’re hopping around your emotional truth like you said, that’s not kind to them or to you. And so as long as you are super clear, you are going to feel a lot better about that situation than if you were just kinda like, you know, that wavering kind of emotionality.
Victoria Volk: So it’s called book of boundaries?
Amanda Popovski: A book of Boundaries. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: There’s another book. The one that I read was called Boundaries. Oh. And two two male doctors. That covers a whole lot of scenarios too.
So if you want, whether a feminine spin or the male version. There’s two books there that we each of us recommend. I have not read the book of boundaries, but I I have a feeling the show notes are gonna be a lot of recommendations there. No. I know. Which is great. This is, like, you know, this is, like, a personal development development self help master class. And now it’s highly sensitive people. So go us.
Amanda Popovski: I have a question for you, Victoria. As an ex as as a highly sensitive person person as an empath. Why do you think like, I can picture a lot of people listening to this and being like, yeah, yeah boundaries are fine. But why do you think that they’re really important Like, how are they life changing to people like us?
Victoria Volk: If they are aligned with your values, they are your guidepost. For navigating life. As long as you’re clear on what your values are, which may or may not be reciprocal. Right? Because values can be internal. Like, I value growth. But I don’t expect other people to value growth. Right? But if I value honesty, I expect honesty from others. I expect honesty to be reciprocal. And so if someone is not being honest with me, there’s my boundary. Right? So I think our values inform our boundaries. So if you can get clear on your values, you know exactly where your boundaries are missing. And if you get confronted with a boundary from someone else that feels activating within you, there’s something there for you to look at within yourself. I had once someone just a simple this was a really clear example of a boundary. It was it gets explicitly outlined in her email message responder. I do not reply to messages between blah blah blah whatever it was. And I thought, wow. And and she had, like, this way to articulate it in the message too, like, I respect my inbox. You know, you don’t need permission to respect your own, but it’s someone who’s setting an example of what a boundary, a healthy boundary looks like. Right? And I thought, oh, that’s really awesome. I love that. You know?
And so when we get confronted with the other people’s boundaries, sometimes we wouldn’t know a boundary if it slapped us in the face. But if as an empath or highly sensitive person, you can feel yourself energetically responding to that. It can help shape and mold your own. Right? And by looking at at yourself and self reflection and all of that. So they’re so important just for navigating life, I think.
Amanda Popovski: I completely agree with that. And to take a bit of a more woo spin because that’s just my whole thing. I think when I often say that when we’re procrastinating or overthinking or whatever, and we don’t take the brave action in our life or business. It’s you’re you’re not just hurting your productivity, you’re actively tearing at yourself relationship. You’re disappointing yourself again and again. And so when you don’t set boundaries, you’re not protecting yourself, and that indicates to me that your perception of your own value is extremely low. And that’s really sad if the majority of the world feels that their own value is not even worth speaking up about or not even worth protecting because your energy, when you’re an empath, naturally unbounded in a bad way is bleeding out all over the place. You’re everywhere. You’re feeling everything. You’re inheriting and inhaling the vibrations of everything around you, especially in crowds. My God. I don’t know about you, but I’m like, crowd phobic. I can’t do it. I’m a homebody for sure. But if I’m sacrificing my own value and values for someone else, I’m telling everyone, I’m making a proclamation that I don’t value myself or my purpose or the goldenness of my energy because we empathize, we have such a a gift with our energy and everyone’s energy is so unique and beautiful and worth protecting that even thinking about this listener that is stepping into their glory but isn’t able to set those boundaries. I just want to give them a hug and be like, hey, you are super valuable and it’s about time that you saw it for yourself and started to really speak up. And I love what you said about being confronted by other people’s boundaries too, and how when someone sets a boundary that we don’t like, all of a sudden we have the the clarity of insight of like, oh, crap. Yeah, I get it. I do respect that person for setting the boundary, but it can hurt sometimes. And that’s okay.
Like, that has to be okay in a world where we respect ourselves and others. In equal, if not slightly skewed measure?
Victoria Volk: The pendulum can also swing way the other side. Right? Like, where we create boundaries to keep people out and to isolate. And to give ourselves a pass for not leaning into our energetic bigness. Right? Are you familiar with human design? I bet you are.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, girl. What are you? I’m a generator.
Victoria Volk: Nanafaster. Oh. So I’m gonna double whammy. For anyone listening, it’s a double whammy, it’s an empath or a highly sensitive person to either be a projector. Or a manifesto?
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because we we generators.
We’re here to work. We’re here to build, you know, legacies and and our work here. But as a manifesto, You know, projectors wait for the invitation. Right? So how do you what is your strategy to inform?
Victoria Volk: Oh. And you’re boundarying all over the place and initiating. Like, it’s I’m here to initiate others. And so that’s created a lot of grief in my life. Like, people feel my energy before they encounter me. And I I’ve always and, you know, when I learned about the repelling aura that a manifesto can have. I’m like, no wonder. What day of my life? Like, no wonder I felt rejection over and over and over throughout my life. Like, rejection is huge for a manifesto. And as a generator, you can easily be taken advantage of. Your energy can easily be taken advantage of, which is so highly important for generators and manifesting generators alike to to have boundaries, right, around their energy because you really have to be lit up as a generator to what you’re giving your energy to.
Amanda Popovski: Yes.
Victoria Volk: And that’s how you burn out. And I burn out by by well, kind of the same thing, you know, because manifesting generators and manifestors manifesting generators have a little bit of manifestor in them, right, obviously. But I have to put my energy into initiating and creating things. And if and being able to initiate people in the work that I do, especially, I have recognized just because I’ve only been really playing around with my own experiment in the last year. But it’s been huge for relationships in recognizing why things went the way they did, why friendships faded. It’s helped to come to acceptance, I think, more readily just by recognizing that oh, yeah. I initiated that. Like, I I started to use my throat chakra. Right? Which many manifestors have been taught to really shrink down. So, yeah, it’s it’s huge for like, this podcast has been huge for my my throat chakra. Huge for my throat chakra. But anyway, this is not about me.
Amanda Popovski: That isn’t it?
Victoria Volk: No. I know. But I think it’s great conversation for anyone listening to in respect to being an empath or highly sensitive person and blending in human design. I think it’s I’m going to put that in the show notes too and I have many times because I sprinkled it in throughout many episodes. But How has human design helped you as an empath and highly sensitive person as a generator?
Amanda Popovski: Oh, good grief. It’s been a total game changer. It human design I don’t know how it works. I don’t know why it works. Sometimes it makes me so mad that it does work because I’m like, this can’t be real.
I can’t I can’t be so connected to something that I have no idea where it came from or who made it.
Victoria Volk: No. No. No. No. Actually.
Amanda Popovski: Exactly. It has helped me understand that my energy is worth protecting that I need to that I do need to value my purpose. And the work that I do and that I need like Mandy needs to be feeling good in order to create her purpose because that’s the life thread, this golden thread that a generator pulls from is their own, I’m an emotional authority. So if I’m, oh hell yeah. Okay.
Cool. You might do. So if if my emotions ain’t happy, then like no one’s happy. I’m affecting the emotions of everyone around me. When I’m in a mood, Everyone can feel it. And part of that is empath, but the other part of it is that it’s my authority. It’s how I author my life. It’s through my emotions and feeling good and vibrant and excited. That’s really what led me to the decision to leave corporate is that I thought that it was I really wanted to leave corporate once I matched my income with my business. But then someone like a financial adviser was like, okay, yeah, we can we can look into and project if you’re there for one year, for two more years, for three more years, and I felt it, I was like, oh, no. No. No. That’s not gonna be happening. I am probably going to leave, and I did a lot of intuition, worked a lot with my mindset, things that coaches do, and got to a place where I was able to leave, that was a month and a half ago, and I have never experienced more success personally, professionally in, like, vibrant feelings. It’s like I took a dim, like, a thousand milligram. It feels amazing because I’m really where I’m meant to be. So that was a huge boundary for me to set with myself, with my employers with my family who might not understand and with the universe of being, like, I’m ready to go big. Let’s do it. Let’s see what’s on the other side.
Victoria Volk: I just got, like, truth bumps. Oh. So what did that? I mean, you know, I have a day job. Oh, you you know? I do. I’m in in corporate and I don’t talk about it much and where I struggle is and I’m only sharing this because I think it would be helpful for listeners too because I don’t talk about it a lot. And it’s not that I you know, is it my passion? No. Because my passion is being of service in this way of energy healing work and grief work and all that. But it it’s what it allows me to do. Because I do have a lot of freedom in it, and I do have a lot of flexibility. And it kinda checks a lot of boxes for me. And it does provide safety and security. Right?
And I do have a family, and I cover the insurance. I have a lot of layers to to a decision like that, but it if I would not I would be lying if I say, I do not think about that day when I can cut the umbilical cord. You know what I mean? Mhmm. And so when you said that, I’m like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 0: That sounds like heaven.
Victoria Volk: And as a manifestor, to do what I want, when I want, like, it is the ultimate living in alignment. Right? And so it’s like, I feel like this constant push and pull. Yeah. And my energy, right, is constantly, like, I and I have three kids and, you know, one’s in college and one is, like, taking college classes. And the other one is starting to take college classes too, and they’re still in high school that one’s graduating this year. And so I’m at that age of, like, well, in three years, I’m gonna be an empty nester and, oh, like, that’s just crazy to me. You know? And so I’m kind of getting to this. It’s like, you know, waiting for my ship to come in. Right? And taking that leap of faith into the dam ocean and, you know, with a life preserver and know that I’m being held. Right? So please speak to that a little bit more if you could. Please because Oh, yeah. Not only help me, but anyone listening, I’m sure.
Amanda Popovski: Okay. Yes. Beautiful. So the bio that you gave is what I filled out when I filled out the application, but it’s actually changed. I forgot to ask you that.
That’s a okay. That’s a okay. What I do now is still a life and business coach for women, but I help them play bigger, tap into their limitless potential, like, I’m still articulating the messaging around it, but it’s really about that, about leap of faith, trusting in the universe. How do we manifest all of those things? So this is very topical and top of mind. That leap of faith that I took was the week before I decided to do it, I had plans, grand plans to do it in June. And I didn’t do it in June. And it felt okay to me. I was like, oh, well, I’m just like working on my business on the side. And then come June, I started to notice that when I walked into the office, I started to get anxious. I started to feel my body, like my soul leaving my body, but I still denied it. I was like, oh, god. It’s so scary. I don’t I’m not ready. I had zero clients at the time. And I was like, yeah, I’m I’m not ready to do this yet. But the feeling in my body persistent and I started to worry and ruminate And then I got to a point where I was doing like a card reading or something, and I pulled the card yes. And it just says yes. And it says yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, all over it. And it was at that point that I was like, I couldn’t leave my job, and I just kind of let that sit in the air. And as a generator, we respond. Right? So I said that and I waited for my response. And the response was like, yeah, soon, probably. You’ll be leaving.
The real thing that tipped me off was that I had set some three month goals that took me to October, and it was for eight clients or something. And one of my sucky thoughts as I call them, one of my obstacles was like, I can’t make that work with corporate, and the universe was like, you won’t have to. I was like, oh my gosh. So when you’re making a decision like that, it is imperative that you continue to listen to the universe and heed its call. Because your mind is going to be like, yeah, I can leave whenever. I’m a badass. But if the universe keeps saying soon, soon, soon, like it did to me, and you rebel and you’re like, what the hell? Like, I’m ready now. Why aren’t you letting me leave? It really takes a sense of release and surrender to be like, I know that in the right time, at the right moment, I will be able to leave. It was terrifying. The week before I decided to put in my two weeks, I was a mess. My mind was all over the place. It was like, what are you doing? Here are all the reasons it, like, rolled out the scroll and it was like, hey, here are all the reasons that you should not be doing this. But I just continued to listen to that voice in the back of my head that was like, you’re gonna do this. And I trusted that whatever was on the other side was so much better than what I was going through at that time. And my job in corporate was the least corporate corporate job. I worked at a startup who was all young and fun and hip. But In the end, I just had this feeling that as I was leaving, that I wouldn’t regret it. And I had to really lean into faith, like you said, and also lean into my body to make sure that everything was still feeling good in the core at its core. And it did and I left I left with a bang. I threw everyone at Taco Party and I gave them a presentation about what I learned and I made them cookies and I just like made it the biggest celebration of all time. And then I signed my first five figure client, like, within three weeks. But I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I hadn’t listened to my energy. I think as empaths, we have this really incredible ability to be highly sensitive, not only to other people, but once we set those boundaries, we start to gain like master level sensitivity to ourselves. And our intuitions and our next steps. And it’s such a beautiful gift.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing that. And what came up for me was I haven’t I I’m not there yet. Like, it’s like this. It’s like this. Yeah. I know Sunday, but it’s not like this, oh, hit my stomach. You know, I don’t mind what I do. Right? I don’t would I rather be doing something else? Yeah. But it’s not like this visceral response. Like when I was with a different company, that was visceral. Like, you know, I’m in a much better environment doing the same work, but I’m in a much better environment now. And so for an empath or highly sensitive person, our environment really matters that we hold the container that we have ourselves in, where we work. Our environment is really really matters. Now it’s our home environment. That’s where we work, where we choose to play. I think that I think that’s understated. I don’t know why. Like, that just came to me right now to share that. And so I feel like my environment is supportive right now. That’s probably why I’ve not had this visceral experience to, like, cut the cord right now.
Amanda Popovski: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Oh, I love that you said that about the environment because our boundaries with people are important and so are our boundaries with inanimate objects, concepts, things like that. Like screen time.
I’m super sensitive to screen time. I’m super sensitive to the food that I eat. I’m very sensitive to, like, watching TV at night. I know what rituals are going to make me feel like Oh, return to my body in my environment. My favorite places my room.
I love to be in my room. That’s like where I recharge. And I think for an empath or highly sensitive person finding that place. That feels rejuvenative to you can be such a rewarding and deeply nourishing process.
Victoria Volk: I was just reflecting this morning on my sleep last night because I wear a garment and it tells me like my sleep score and it was it was really poor last night and it showed my stress level because it it uses heart rate variability and it like my stress, I can definitely when I when I when I drink alcohol, which isn’t often, but when I do my stress level at night, my sleep is not great. It’s horrible. And even if I just have one or two, like, it really affects my sleep. And, you know, my stress level is higher. And I ate last night late, later than typical, like, around eight o’clock.
I usually don’t eat that late. And I don’t know if that’s why. There’s other things going on with someone I care about. So it’s like, is that why? But it’s like, again, it’s like, like, what’s happening within my body that did cause me not to have this rejuvenative, rested sleep. And I was in bed for over nine hours, but and I you know, it said I slept like seven or seven, but it wasn’t restful and it wasn’t rejuvenating. And so I would just encourage people too, like, to your point about food and sensitivities and things like that. Like, if you’re sleeping like crap, just kinda keep a journal and keep track of what, you know, for like a good two weeks to see how things are affecting you and impacting you because that’s how you connect the dots and that’s it It’s just data. Right? I think it’s so important for us as highly sensitive people to kinda take ownership of our energy in that way and and track and find these data points that are blatantly clear if we just attend to them.
Right?
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. And what got up for me was grief of the normal for highly sensitive people. So, like, my boyfriend, for example, is the most normal person I’ve ever met. He loves pizza and beer and video games, he loves football on Sundays, he goes to family parties, like all these different things. I think when you’re highly sensitive, you start to set boundaries, you start to move into your purpose. There is this grieving of, why can’t I be normal? Like, I I I I wish in some ways that I enjoyed a glass of wine because I think it’s so chic and cool, but I get like really sleepy and I get a headache so I’m like, no, no, that’s not for me. I have very recently been playing with nutrition and what really nourishes the body like an anti inflammatory diet. And so I know now that sugar gluten, corn, peanut butter, cry, peanut butter. All of these things like they don’t they don’t make me feel good and it is actively hurting my body when I eat them. And it was such as much as it was a process of releasing those foods, it was a process of releasing the person that can just go to a restaurant and order like a turkey club. Right? Or a person that can just go out on a Friday night and like party it up, you know it a club or whatever. But when you’re different like us, I feel like there’s real room for you. This listener, for example, that is stepping into her purpose and everyone around her is like, what the fuck? Can I swear?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’s already explicit. I spoke to you.
Amanda Popovski: Okay. Good. Everyone around her who’s like, what’s going on? Like, they’re basically asking her why aren’t you normal. Mhmm. And it’s really critical, I think, for us during these transitions to take that time and grieve who we were, the ideal daughter family member, restaurant, a tender, right, the ideal student, whatever, when we have these divergences in what is considered normal in society, that grief is something that I don’t think we talk about enough. It’s like grieving the person that was compliant, the woman that did play small. Those are big concepts, deeply rooted concepts. And what’s beautiful is that on the other side of that grief is real power to step into that process. But sometimes there’s an ugly in between of like being the goop in the butterfly chrysalis before it becomes that butterfly.
Victoria Volk: I love that metaphor. Also, I think when it comes to nutrition, I think that’s been huge too for me with my human design because the digestion piece, because I I had tried this you know, eating a hundred and fifty six grams of protein and over two thousand calories. And I was like, I felt so heavy. Yeah. And after a week of, like, trying to, like, Making sure I got my over ten thousand steps and doing these intense workouts and eating so much food, I never felt so horrible after a week. And, like, this is not for me. I completely found something that has now. I’m at a calorie that I’m at a calorie count that feels doable, manageable, typical, like normal for me. I don’t feel weighed down. I feel lighter. I have more energy actually. It’s really ironic. I’m lifting more. I’m moving more weights. My age after three weeks on my health fitness age has decreased. My three years? Yes. So I’m, like, I’m a line now. And it’s more of, like, I should be more of a grazer and more, like, not such heavy meals and, you know, not those three square meals a day and eating so much and There you go. I had my big meal last night before bed, like, duh.
Amanda Popovski: Oh my god.
Victoria Volk: I ate too much.
Amanda Popovski: My bad.
Victoria Volk: I solved it. I ate too much.
Speaker 0: I kinda knew that. Like, why am
Victoria Volk: I eating before? Yeah. See, here’s a lesson for y’all. Like, learning human design. Learn about your digestion.
Do your body a favor. Take some damn.
Amanda Popovski: Don’t be afraid to be abnormal either.
Victoria Volk: And Don’t be afraid to find your normal.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Your natural. Yes. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So let me let’s we’re gonna pivot and I mean, we’ve talked about food, but in like that familial acceptance, and I’m just kinda looking at my notes here. I want you to I don’t remember if you know what you said. When I asked in my form, I asked, what would you like to stream to the world? In the past or recently and wish people knew about your grief. Do you remember what you said?
Mm-mm. Okay. I’ll read it to you, and you tell me if it would change or if it’s what you would say today. I wish people knew that I wasn’t weak, soft, or a woozy, that I’m strong, and my inner world has vast and rich, but my emotions can be fragile. In a grieving period, I like to be as alone as humanly possible, and that doesn’t make me strange. It makes me a good steward of my own life force. You don’t have to understand me to love me, but I always trust that in loving me, you must allow me to make my own decisions about what can help me process and understand my experience. It takes more time and emotional energy than most of the world may allow, but affords me a wealth of experience and empathy that most of the world may never know. I thought it was so beautifully written. And so maybe you wouldn’t wanna change it, but is there anything you would like to add?
Amanda Popovski: Oh, mama. That was an a stirring experience to hear that. Back because as if I recall as I was filling out that application, especially the way that you structured and how your energy is imbued, I felt very free to speak openly about these concepts. And you caught an Amanda that exists underneath like the coaching layer that kind of took me a back and and was really moving. So The only thing that I would add is that I wish this to be the attitude of all HSPs and empaths.
That deep down, we see the true beauty in who we are, and we see the power of the way that we process, and we see the beauty that we in our emotional vastness affords the world. We are like the artists and the feelers and the tender beating heart of humanity, and we should never squash that down. Because if we do, then we lose the fight to the robots and nobody wants that.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for bringing that up. That’s a great segue. To a comment I made before we started recording and in talking about, like, AI. And and I encouraged you to jump on the podcasting bandwagon because I think there’s nothing more important now than storytelling. And even, you know, children’s books, I’ve been I’ve been seen how people are kind of bucking AI in that way and how people are really wanting I mean, it’s through storytelling that we have deep connection that we find connection with other people. And in that and written word has energy. Right? The written word has energy. And so if everything we’re reading doesn’t have humanness to it, are we then desensitizing ourselves as a society to what it means to be human. I mean, that’s a huge concept. And I’m maybe it’s like a download. I don’t know, but with so much happening and especially in the US right now. And the how AI is in all aspects of our lives, I think it’s in the human connection, the storytelling. Rather than the number of characters that one can type. Or I just heard a brilliant idea for someone shared with me, a good friend shared. There’s a subscription where you can it’s a different way. It’s like, think book reading, but it’s in a letter form where you’re you’re you’re reading you get a letter sent a written letter sent to your inbox. And it’s like you become invested in this story. And it’s in a subscription. I’m like, oh my god.
That is genius. Why didn’t I think of that? Like, sending people letters. Like and I don’t know how the letters are Like, if it’s, like, just I don’t know. Like, if is it, like, handwritten and then just reproduced for people who are subscribers, I’m not sure. I didn’t, like, look deeply into it, but I’m, like, that’s brilliant. And I just think it’s in the storytelling that we see ourselves and other people’s stories, that we, I think, can look beyond what someone is projecting and look at them as more human when we know their story. Right? It’s hard to be angry at someone when we know their story. You know? Did you ever have somebody just ever ask you, what’s happened to you?
Amanda Popovski: I have had someone tell me you seem different. Which I thought was interesting.
Victoria Volk: Different as in, like, the Amanda now or different as in as a child or as you were growing up?
Amanda Popovski: The Amanda now versus the one that they knew in the past. Which because I value growth as well, I saw as a sign of a very positive sign. Mhmm. Like, yes, I am moving up in the world and, you know, all those things at the time that that, like, career trajectory and all those things were super, super important to me. But I love the idea that we can everything you just said about storytelling is just still rolling around in my head. Because when we ask someone, what happened to you. We give them or maybe in slightly kinder words, maybe. We give them the opportunity to share their story with us. And that creates circles where AI technology just create lines. You know? Like, there’s real connection between people when we tell stories. I was listening to a podcast a while ago and they were talking about the writer strike about using AI and chat GPT in screenwriting. And one of the hosts pointed out that when we view a film that is so to us is so perfect, part of what we love about that perfection is that it was created by another human being. With the same brain as us, but they access something different. They, like, did they made something beautiful with their mind.
And so, I think, valuing the imperfection of human experience rather than the productivity and perfection and, like, cold metal hardness of AI. Is valuable. And I like to think since I learned about digital minimalism, which is basically like being really intentional with what apps you have on your phone, how you use it, etcetera, making your smartphone dumb basically. I’ve become a true believer that I think the pendulum will swing in in our lifetime, that everyone will get so anxious and fed up with all of this vast communication networks that the majority of us will actually take a step back, start to align our values with what we do, and we’re gonna see kraft’s people come through. And we’re gonna see people using the Internet for like an hour a day instead of eight hours a day. And I have a lot of hope for humanity that the things that I value that feel really true to me, will start to disseminate in the world and that there will at least be a few of us who are more like, put your feet in the grass rather than play a game on your phone.
Victoria Volk: What has been the one grief experience that you think has in the catapult for your glow up, your your evolution, like your Oh. Yeah. The amount of now.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. It was the grieving. So when I I decided I got my corporate job and I was about a year and a half in. And I’d gotten to senior level, which was very exciting. And I had always wanted a company to pay for me to travel. And I was traveling, I went to San Francisco for an accounting smart last, which sounds super nerdy, but I freaking loved it. And it was the week of my birthday. And I remember waking up on my birthday. And in this really nice hotel, in this new city, and just being like, I can’t I can’t do this. This isn’t my dream.
This is the dream of someone else. And at that time, I hired a coach and I started to work on expanding my digital marketing business and like going full ham with that because I was so wounded by my previous experience with coaching and what people I loved had sent to me. I pushed it off. But it got to a place where I realized that I do wanna be a coach for whatever reason. It just pulled to me.
It pulled to me. It kept pulling to me. It was the single thread of pull through my life in the past. And I made this hundred slide PowerPoint presentation. I sat my parents down and I walked them through it and explained very rationally and very logically. That I was working with a coach and that I wanted to be a coach and that their love and support had gotten me to this place and I understand if they don’t understand, but this is what I want my career to be. Were they okay with it? I don’t know. We’ve gotten to a good place with it now, but I deeply remember doing that presentation, getting their quote unquote blessing, which was important to me at the time. Going up to my room, sinking to my knees, and just crying, like, crying, crying, crying. And I think that what this was is the grieving of the Amanda that I thought could make my parents proud, my immigrant dad, my hardworking mom whose upbringing was really tough. My family who saw me with so much potential in the corporate world, my friends who I had who didn’t understand what coaching was or entrepreneurship, and myself the version of me that was like, yes, I finally did it. I twisted myself into the pretzel that everyone wanted me to be. And with this decision to be a coach, I untwisted that whole pretzel and I stopped being someone who accepted, someone who was palatable, I guess. And that was hugely grief inducing for me a especially as a highly sensitive person whose goal was to be understood and to feel like she belonged and to feel like she had a place. I had made a place for myself and corporate where I felt spected by my family, by my peers. And it was just the realization kind of clinking into place that I would never be this normal person. That I had successfully fooled myself into being. Once I processed that, I looked back a few times, but I I didn’t look back and I made it my mission to be more in line with my purpose than with anyone else’s opinion of me and set boundaries along the way for that. And now, I feel like the Amanda in this chair today is the Amanda that my soul has always wanted me to be, someone who’s present and grounded and really changing lives and trusting deeply and herself.
Victoria Volk: And it sounds like to me that you’ve aligned your life with your values.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. With my values, not necessarily anyone else’s values.
Victoria Volk: Which doesn’t include people pleasing. Yeah. This is what I heard a lot of in what you shared, because we can do a lot of people pleasing for acceptance as highly sensitive and empathic people.
Amanda Popovski: That’s good. Thank you for reflecting that back. I haven’t thought about that in a long time.
Victoria Volk: What is the best piece of advice did you receive? From someone that as you were kind of going, did you first of all, I mean, it’s it’s hard to find people. Right? Like, because oftentimes the people closest to you who have skin in your game are not the people who are gonna be in support of your dreams. Let’s not be real.
Amanda Popovski: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And so, I guess, my piece of advice for highly sensitive people are in paths and all people in general is to find that person that doesn’t have skin in your game. Meaning, whatever choices or decisions you make will not have a direct impact or effect on them. And so did you find that for yourself or what was the most helpful piece of advice or something that you discovered that was really helpful for you in navigating all of that.
Amanda Popovski: Can the advice come from a book? Absolutely. Okay. We’re gonna have a thousand books in the description, but this book is untamed by London Doyle. It is a very good read. If you’re ready for it, it’s It encourages you to play big in a way that’s absolutely awesome. She was an alcoholic. I think she still identifies as an alcoholic, but sober. And in one of her first AA meetings, she shared her story and someone someone came up to her afterwards and was like, hey, thank you for sharing your story. I relate to it a lot. I wanna tell you that Something nobody told me at the beginning is that your feelings are there to be felt, all of them. And Glenin reflects on the fact that she she thought only good things were meant to be felt, that the negative emotions were meant to be swept away under the rug and meant to be solved and figured out, but that to fully feel them, that’s why a soul floating in the ether chose you to be the human that they inhabit. Right? The the highs and the lows, the terrible, terrible pain, and the absolutely ecstatic bliss. This is what souls floating in the ether are like, I get to be human yay. You know? So that had a massive impact on me and it allowed me especially as a highly emotional person to see to have like an almost cool detachment from my emotions to want to feel them, to want to be vibrantly in on the game of life, but not let them toss me around to still be the leader in this time of grief.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Yes. Another resource for the show notes. Now, I can tell you’re probably much younger than me. And so you’re probably in the throes.
Well, you have a boyfriend you stated, but you’ve been in the dating game, of course, as a,
Amanda Popovski: oh, girl.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So can you just reflect a little bit on that experience as a highly from the perspective of a highly sensitive and path like person in finding your match.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, yeah. I love this story. Okay. So I have a a a long history with dating apps in today’s day and age. I we’ve come to them and then flood them and then leave basically. And I did this a few times before I decided really intentionally a few summers ago, maybe four or four years ago, that I wanted to be intentional, and I wanted to set that boundary. And I wanted to only go on dates. Like, I wanted to stay open, but only go on dates that I felt like I couldn’t have a real connection with, not just someone who was very attractive. And that led me to Well, it’s fun about highly sensitive people. They’re often very intelligent and ambitious. And my ambition, I was like, I’m gonna read a blog post about going on ten dates in four weeks, and then I’m gonna beat famous. And so I set up all these dates And I went on most of them, and all these guys were great. I could see them being a match. But by the sixth date, I was like, oh, gosh. I don’t feel good.
And I was feeling burnt out by the experience. So I was like, yeah, okay. I’ll never be famous for this, and I I deleted the app. And my boyfriend and I met through a blind date, through my mom, and line dates, especially through moms, are super uncommon nowadays. Yeah. But I I had decided after that whole summer of love or whatever that I was just going to focus on my relationship with myself as absolutely corny as that sounds. And it was when I wasn’t looking for a relationship that my mom texted me and was like, if I set you up on a blind date, will you go? And I was like, yes, absolutely. Just tell me when and where. Can you transfer?
Can I just send a text to her? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my mom’s the coolest. Of course, I trust her. But maybe maybe other moms. Might be a little crazy, but we I went on the state not expecting a lot. I looked him up on Facebook. He didn’t look me up. He didn’t know what to expect that I couldn’t handle the tension of not knowing.
And we went on the state and it was fine. We talked for a while. I remember the waiter put we both ordered two sushi rolls And on our plates, they had put one of his sushi rolls and one of mine, and on his plate, one of his and one of mine. And I distinctly remember me finishing my side on my plate and waiting, you know, being polite and like first lady and being like, oh, you know, maybe he’ll notice that I have his role or whatever. Immediately, he was like, hey, give me your plate.
What’s going on here? And I was like, oh, interesting. He anticipated my needs. But it was it was fine. Like, I didn’t feel an instant connection. And I got in the car to drive home And my intuition was like, you’re gonna go on a second date. I was like, oh, okay. That’s fine. And then by the fourth date, my intuition was like, yeah, this this guy is really good for you. This is the one. And this came from someone who is
Victoria Volk: A one.
Amanda Popovski: Yes. Yes. Yes. Crazy. Because we we didn’t have a lot in common. I pictured always pictured myself with someone, highly entrepreneurial who would vibe with me on an intellectual level and we’d have all these conversations, whatever. But he’s like, just this this Irish boy that I can speak to from an energetic perspective no one has made me feel more secure or grounded in my energy. And I felt very early on that my inner child was welcome to come out to play with him in a way that had never happened with his, like, highly intellectual man that I had been dating. I think if someone’s on the dating scene now who is an empath and highly sensitive, I recommend What I did because of the digital minimalism thing is I would delete the app during the day, so I wouldn’t be tempted to check it. And that really helps me establish good boundaries of like this is not my entire life I don’t need to be stuck doom scrolling through these guys. And that helped me just do an automatic barrier between my energy and theirs. And then I didn’t do a very good job of this, but something I would tell someone is to really, like, mitigate your energy on a first date because you are trying so hard to be so smiley and attractive and, like, suck them out. They’re trying to suss you out. So my recommendation is to set it at like an hour and then leave and then see how you feel and if you wanna do a second date. That’s great advice.
Yep.
Victoria Volk: And also maybe before you even open the app, make sure that your energy is aligned with finding someone who is aligned with you rather than this desperate I need someone in my life energy. Right? Like, because you’re gonna attract someone very different depending on your energy. Right? Like, you’re gonna be looking for different things based on, like, no, I’m I’m coming into this.
I want someone who can match me in this energy that I am in now who values growth and, you know, has that forethought vibe about themselves where they’re grounded in the present moment but still have or, like, this visionary person or whatever it is you’re looking for. Right? Mhmm. I think that’s equally important to go into it with the energy of what you’re trying to match with and whom you’re trying to match with, I should say.
Amanda Popovski: That’s good advice, you know.
Victoria Volk: I also heard
Amanda Popovski: Yeah. Go ahead.
Victoria Volk: I also heard through I love the radio show, Brooke and Jeffrey in the morning. It’s hilarious. Mhmm. On Spotify, they do second date updates, they do, like, there’s been some really funny stories on there. It’s it’s my daily dose of humor and black out louding to myself. But anyway, one of the things that I’ve learned I’m not in the dating world. I haven’t been for, like, over twenty years, and I couldn’t imagine being in the dating world today, which is why I wanted to for you to share. But one of the things that someone had talked about was they had a because the dating apps can be exhausting and for, like, all the reasons you said, and they have what some women are doing now is they’re having, like, these dating app parties with their girlfriends. And their girlfriends are choosing who they go on a date with. Whoo. How fun does that sound? Right? Like, you’re trusting the people closest to you to find a match for you rather than your own ego and your own like getting all in your head and all of that. The people that know you the best. Right?
And so that’s why I think like no one knows their child better or no one knows you better than you know yourself, number one. But secondly, if you are all, you know, if you can’t get the emotion out of it, that’s, you know, especially if you’re an emotional. Right? You gotta ride the emotional wave and sometimes that can take weeks and You know what I mean? So you kinda need some support in that way, like someone who can be objective. Right? So that’s why I think that’s a great idea potentially for highly sensitive empathic people. So, Jamie, I just thought I’d throw that out there too.
Amanda Popovski: I love that because then you’re not a lot of the time if we see someone very attractive and very well matched for us, we’re gonna talk ourselves down from it. But your friend, your BFF is gonna be like, oh, totally. I see I see this, this, and this, and you, that would make them a really great match. So I think it gets you out of your head really good way. So good.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Is there anything else that you feel like you didn’t get to share that you’d like to share?
Amanda Popovski: Only thing that comes to mind is when you are grieving, use your voice. I don’t really know what it means,
Victoria Volk: but I like it. That is good advice. These so many of us crave alone, especially as empaths and highly sensitive people. It can be very easy. To get to a point where especially as children, you know, children have no filter. Children show us I mean I mean as babies we cry. Right? That’s all that’s our language. We cry. And the longer we are in society and we grow up and we’re around people who don’t even cry, we don’t even cry anymore. We get to a point where we don’t even cry. And as this, I think, a highly sensitive person in empath, I think that is our love language. For ourselves, that’s the love we can give to ourselves, is to allow ourselves to cry. As I know for myself, you know, I was taught to if, you know and I and not just highly sensitive people in in paths alone, but that’s one of the things that many people will say, like, as a child, you know, you wanna cry, I’ll give you something to cry about. You wanna cry, go to your room. I was told that as a child. And I did. And to the point where I would fall asleep under my bed. Like, I didn’t just go on top of my bed to cry. I went underneath my bed. I went into the linen closet. I would hide to cry. The kitchen cupboard, a hid to cry. One time they even sent a search party out, that’s the time I was in the linen closet. They didn’t know where I was. And I reflect on that as an adult. And doing the work, the personal development work, and going through grief recovery myself, I cried it was like the the dam broke and thirty plus years of tears came out. And I left that experience a different person than I went in. And that that’s when I started to use my voice. It’s like the tears that were so bottled up. It was like they were choking me. You know? And I think that’s what grief does too to us. It especially as a highly sensitive person or empathic person, it, like, just tangles everything up. And you just gotta start pulling the thread.
Amanda Popovski: And I love that you said it centralized. You made a motion at your neck. And that’s that’s the throat chakra. Connection between the head and the body. I think it makes us so in our minds and may be so surprised when our body finally shows up and has these retching knobs coming through us. But if we can get into the practice of using our voices when we’re grieving. Think it allows us to heal mind and body together through that connection.
Victoria Volk: Let me ask you this. So I think one of the greatest gifts I gave to myself was because I, you know, I also thought something was wrong with me as you did too. You expressed that. Like, you feel like you’re different. You know you’re different. You feel like I was the kid ordering home reading books from this elastic in elementary school and my friends were ordering like books to read or comic books or whatever it was. And here, I’m reading, like, ordering Paul, reading books. And I collected stickers. And, you know, yeah, the weirdo. Right? And actually someone in my graduating class on the back of his senior picture he gave me. He even stated that. Like, you were weird, but you know, good luck to you or something. I didn’t remember exactly, but he he called me weird. My kids have called me weird, but I look at it now or I feel like, you know what? I’m gonna let my weird way let weird flag fly. And I’ve definitely learned how to embrace it, but I was looking for anything and everything to discover and learn about myself because it’s like I was so disconnected from and because a lot of that had to do with my grief and trauma growing up, but and things I experienced early on in my life, but to really connect with the the child within me. Right? And I remember, like, because I was like, I have Simeon lines on the whole fans.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, I don’t. Wow. So this is
Victoria Volk: all, like, head and heart so confused, like, head and heart, like yeah. So I’m like, okay. Well, that, you know, explains my indecisiveness and my emotional roller coaster I’m constantly on. And then in the last five years since going through group recovery and stuff, I discovered you map and Clifton strengths, gout, Clifton strengths and stuff. And here I have, like, all mostly thinking themes, well, okay, no wonder. Yeah. Sounds like all of these little pieces and just and then human design, like, all these tools and little pieces of knowledge that I’ve picked up along the way have really helped me get to where I’m at now, you know, to and understand. I have this NAT. A lot of plants and then there’s they come with NATs and they drive me crazy. So But no. I, you know, I think any little piece that we can find to help us better understand ourselves gives us one step closer to really embracing our uniqueness. And so, I guess, you mentioned self help books, but were there any tools and things that you feel like have really been pivotal in helping you embracing your uniqueness.
Amanda Popovski: The big thing that comes to mind is actually human design. Yeah? Yeah. That’s been a like a real game changer. And then not to be biased, but having a coach has been there’s a very distinct difference between who I was before. I worked with a coach and who I am now. Just in terms of what I truly believe is possible for myself is so highly elevated that it’s like I kind of thought I could be this person but I didn’t really know until I was consistently pushed to my limits and had different perspectives and mentorship offered to me. I don’t think I could have done it just with human design or just with books. I think I needed that one on one relationship with a mentor, a coach, someone that knows how to help you excel. That’s a that a
Victoria Volk: huge modality for me. Like my dear friend says, you can’t see the label from inside the jar.
Amanda Popovski: You can’t see the cover from inside the book. That’s what came to mind. Yeah. I love that. Your friend is very wise. He should be on the podcast.
Victoria Volk: She has been. Early on. Yeah. Early on when I started.
Amanda Popovski: What was it for you?
Victoria Volk: Well, if I would say most recently, Most recently, it would be human design in the past year, just in really understanding my manifesto energy. But what unlocked my life and my grief was grief recovery. Was going through that experience and doing that really deep work that I still continue to do. It’s you know, I’m all I’m a work in progress. We all are always. And also coaching. Like, I’ve had my own coaches, you know, and that’s an investment in yourself. I had a my grief. I have a client right now and she asked me a really insightful question. I made a note of it. But she asked me, Like, how is the grief recovery method or how is the program that she’s in different from therapy and and wanted me to explain it? Mhmm. And What came up for me was the theme that you and I have been sharing this whole time is storytelling. And I think that’s what really sets grief recovery apart is that because in the work that I do with clients, I always go first. I share first.
And I think that is just it’s disarming for the other person. It’s how we connect with each other. It’s how I connect with my guests when they’re on this podcast. It’s this back and forth. It’s this in communion with our life experience. Right? It’s a breaking of bread of our grief, so to speak. I think that’s why this podcast works, at least I think it does. I mean, the stats are showing it does. And sometimes with therapy or therapists, people who are, you know, like psychotherapists or psychiatrists, and that’s I think the missing piece. Is that there’s this barrier that’s kind of put up and she expresses herself. She’s like there’s this wall almost because the therapist is not sharing anything from their lives. And of course, they have, you know, there’s, I suppose, a boundary of practice. Right? Like, you know, when I get too close to your patients or clients or whatever the case may be. And I think that’s the beautiful gift, though. Of grief recovery is that that doesn’t exist. That wall doesn’t exist.
Amanda Popovski: Oh, that’s that’s so beautiful. Because you make them feel safe, but I think especially amplified by your highly sensitive nature and your empath powers are coming through in the perfect way that really is your purpose. And so tactically, it makes a lot of sense that you would go first. But when you do, Victoria, it’s like this lightning bolt of safety that is created. Like brain drops on a window almost because you have that superpower of empathy and that gift of being with others.
Victoria Volk: And have you shared that with your clients?
Amanda Popovski: Coaching that I do, the clients come to me to learn things about business strategy, about manifestation wisdom, about mindset mastery. And while I feel a kinship with my clients, I feel more like a teacher who’s leading. Which I think works. There’s a certain amount of self disclosure Mhmm. Especially with me because I’m a very Instagram focused in my marketing. So my day is I invite people to my day. But I think that they come to me because they see something in me that they want for themselves or that they feel as a part of their journey rather than being in a place of I’m experiencing this deeply sensitive time. How do I move through it with someone next to me? Right? It’s like that maybe cliched now thing of, like, there’s two footprints on the beach and Mhmm.
This is carrying you on his back. I think I’m more sitting across from my clients. Standing in what is possible, which you are as well. But I wonder what it would look like for my practice. If I were able to I think I think the nature of our work you and I allows empathy, and pastness, and high high sensitivity to blossom in two different ways. Like, we’re both flowers, but just have a different shade. Like, how your eyebrows are cousins, not twins? Like, we’re cousins, not twins.
Victoria Volk: No. That’s beautiful. I I just you know, because the work that you do in this question that she posed last night, it was just kinda stuck with me and I just kinda kinda wanted to get what your thoughts were on that.
Amanda Popovski: Someone just today actually said that we were talking about how coaching is different than therapy. And my view is that therapy is can be very past focused and very focused on the past and the present. And I think that coaching at least the kind that I do is very much focused on goals in the future. And being embodied in the present and like these concepts that because the therapist has that act of self disclosure, they they might not talk spirituality with you or human design or business strategy. Right? They’re there to be a therapeutic outlet. Whereas I I like to think that after a coaching session, at least this is me with my coach, and from what I can tell my clients with me, it’s like I feel like a superhero. Like, I just plugged into a five hundred watt amp and I feel clear and and ready to go make sure it happened. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And I’m kind of like, I want those people who want that for themselves, who are ready to open their lives up to that, but let’s look at the past. So then we don’t repeat it. Let’s become empowered by our past. Let’s look at our past with a new perspective so that we’re not pulling it and dragging it with us into our future.
Amanda Popovski: And that work that you do is ultimately such a strong foundation for the work that I would do. Mhmm. Of like, damn, you are so well regulated you know your shit, let’s just springboard and see where you can go, whereas someone who might not have that grip on the pass, more time is taken to dissect and to go back. So imagine
Victoria Volk: Imagine now. If I just referred people on to you after they’ve worked with me.
Amanda Popovski: Oh my gosh. Is a match made in heaven?
Victoria Volk: Vice versa if people come to you and you’re like, well, I think we need to look at your foundation first. Maybe you should talk to Victoria. Not quite ready. No. This has been amazing. I loved our conversation. I hope the listeners can feel our dancing of energy because I feel it and you feel like a kindred spirit. You’re like the blonde version of my very beautiful friend. And she’s a red head. And actually, your hair is really similar to she’s got this beautiful full red hair that I’ve been MDSO forever.
But yeah.
Amanda Popovski: So cool. I felt the same. This was such such a good conversation. I feel like we were talking and then our antennas were also talking.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Yes. We are a vibe together.
Amanda Popovski: I’m so sorry.
Victoria Volk: Well, where can people reach you if they would like to learn more about your work and what you do, and your awesomeness, and your beautiful golden energy?
Amanda Popovski: So it’s on my website at amanda popupsky dot com and then Instagram at amanda popupsky. If you have trouble spelling it, it’s okay. It’s in the title of podcasts. But those are my main two places that’s where I’ve been hanging out and where I’m announcing new programs and things and yeah. Thank you for the opportunity to share that.
Victoria Volk: I will put the winks in the show notes. Yeah. Thank you so much for this beautiful conversation today. It’s been a gift. Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Inspired by recent discussions, this episode offers a new perspective that’s been noodling around in my mind. In this week’s episode, I explore the question: Is there a wrong way to grieve?
Key Points:
Societal Struggles with Grief: Despite popular belief that all grieving methods are valid, society often fails at effective coping—indicating a need to reevaluate our grief practices.
Unhealthy Coping Mechanisms: People frequently turn to short-term harmful behaviors like substance abuse, gambling, or workaholism as an escape from grief rather than confronting their emotions head-on.
Cultural Responses to Grief: Common advice such as “be strong” or “stay busy” reflects societal discomfort with grief rather than offering real support for healthy emotional processing.
Impact on Children: These unhealthy responses are often learned in childhood and perpetuate ineffective grieving cycles; teaching children healthier mechanisms is crucial for breaking these patterns.
Rethinking Language: Instead of saying there’s no wrong way to grieve, acknowledging that better ways can be more constructive in framing our approach toward grief.
This episode challenges listeners to reflect deeply on their own experiences with loss while encouraging a transformative shift towards healthier approaches to dealing with grief—for individual growth and the betterment of society.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Rethinking Grief – Is There a Wrong Way to Grieve?
Grieving is an inevitable part of the human experience, yet it’s often misunderstood and mishandled. In a recent solo episode of “Grieving Voices,” the host delved into the provocative question: Is there a wrong way to grieve? This discussion was spurred by conversations on The Light Within podcast and reflections shared in The Unleashed Letters newsletter. Let’s explore this thought-provoking topic further.
Societal Struggles with Grief
Despite the widespread belief that there’s no wrong way to grieve, society’s ongoing struggle with effective grief management suggests otherwise. People frequently resort to short-term coping mechanisms that are more harmful than helpful—substance abuse, gambling, overworking—all in an attempt to escape their pain rather than face it head-on.
Cultural Responses and Myths
Cultural responses often exacerbate these unhealthy practices. Common advice like “move on quickly,” “stay busy,” or “don’t feel bad” reflects our collective discomfort with grief rather than providing genuine support. These myths perpetuate ineffective grieving processes and prevent individuals from truly processing their emotions.
Impact on Children
The consequences extend beyond adults; children learn these behaviors early on, creating a cycle of ineffective grieving across generations. Teaching healthier coping mechanisms from childhood can break this cycle, fostering emotional resilience for future generations.
Language Matters
Instead of saying there’s no wrong way to grieve, acknowledging that there are better ways could significantly shift our approach towards more constructive practices. Words shape perceptions and actions—they matter immensely in framing our experiences.
Call to Action
The episode concluded with a powerful call-to-action: listeners were encouraged to become trailblazers within their families by adopting healthier grief practices themselves and advocating for them among loved ones.
Essential Takeaways:
- Disparity Between Beliefs & Reality: There’s a gap between believing any form of grieving is acceptable versus recognizing harmful patterns.
- Challenge Cultural Myths: Questioning societal attitudes toward grief can lead us toward healthier approaches.
- Healthy Coping Mechanisms: Identifying effective strategies promotes better emotional well-being.
- Educational Role: Changing personal habits influences broader cultural shifts over time.
Reflecting on one’s own experiences and making conscious efforts towards healthy grieving not only benefits individual mental health but also paves the way for societal change—a crucial step towards collective emotional well-being.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning in to this solo episode of Greeting Voices. And when I was thinking about what I wanted to talk about today, It’s something that’s kind of come up quite a bit in conversations lately, and it was the topic of my latest newsletter, the unleashed letters, which comes out every other Wednesday. There is a link in the show notes if you’re interested after hearing this episode because this is the kind of content that I often share in the newsletter, just a variety of different topics, things that or maybe on my mind at the time or conversations I’ve been having, just inspirations and nuggets and things that I’m kind of discerning for myself and and learning and and whatnot. But anyway, today, I don’t wanna talk about this idea that the question really, is there a wrong way to grieve? In a recent podcast guesting interview that I had with Leslie Draffin, she’s the host of the light within podcast. I made a statement that had stopped me after the words left my mouth. But in that moment, they felt like truth and still do. I made mention that we’re fed this crap of how there’s no wrong way to grieve. And I’m pretty positive that even I have said such a statement at one time or another However, what struck me after I said it was how much sense it doesn’t make to me because if there’s no wrong way to grieve, then why are we struggling so much as a society with grief in general? If we knew a better way to grieve, people wouldn’t continue to turn to germs, short term energy relieving behaviors like gambling or porn or sex or substances shopping, workaholism, exercise, food, romance, fantasy, all of these things in an effort to feel better rather than actually feel and sit with the hard feelings. So as a society, if there was no air quote wrong way to grieve, then we’d be doing it better, where we wouldn’t tell people or ourselves that they should get over it and replace the loss and not feel bad and time will heal and just to keep busy, These are the things that are said and done in response to grief more commonly than not. So are these things really the right way air quote to grieve? If your child were to succumb to alcohol use? After a devastating break up, would you tell them that they’re grieving in a healthy way, a way that is air quote right and will move them forward? Or would you feel and know that they’re grieving in an unhealthy way and that there is better, more productive, and healthy way. Any logical adult with a fully formed frontal lobe would agree that there is a better way to deal with a breakup than getting drunk and losing all sense of self agency. I am speaking from experience by the way as being someone who succumb to alcohol abuse following a devastating breakup, but perhaps it’s the language we need to change. Rather than making the statement, there’s no wrong way to grieve. We should make a more honest statement and instead say, there’s a better way to grieve. You see, words matter. And I’ve come to the belief that until as a society, We recognize all the unhealthy ways we are grieving, things that we would deem as negative or, quote, unhealthy. This misinformation will continue to perpetuate the ongoing, unhealthy responses to grief that we learn as children. And my mission is to change that so that our children can grow up learning healthier ways to cope. I do feel like there’s been progress, but the statement that there’s no wrong way to grieve, I think is part of the problem. And I hope that just in this very brief episode that I’ve illustrated well enough why I believe that to be true. The myths of grief are still alive and well and how we’re responding to grief. Don’t feel bad, replace the loss, grief alone, time heals, keep busy, and stay strong. Think back to your own experiences growing up and how you were taught to respond to grief. Were difficult emotions and experiences swept under the rug and not talked about? Were you told to go cry in your room if you wanted to cry? In other words, grieve alone? Have you been told that there are plenty of fish in the sea or they’re in a better place, God needed another angel? All of these are unhelpful and can be hurtful to a griever. And yet statements like these is what caused so many of us to grieve alone. Is that wrong? Or is it instead that we just don’t know a better way? We can do better. For ourselves and for the generations behind us. But for things to change, we need trailblazers to go first. And in my family, I’ve been the trailblazer. The question is, Will you be the trailblazer in yours? Until next time, with so much love and light, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
With over a decade of experience collecting stories globally, this week’s guest and author, Annie Sklaver Orenstein, has been featured on platforms such as NBC Nightly News and Politico. Her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief, is an empathetic resource for surviving siblings—a group often overlooked in mourning.
Annie shares her insights about sibling relationships being some of the longest-lasting bonds in life. This perspective offers new dimensions to understanding grief, especially for those who haven’t experienced sibling loss themselves. She emphasizes that siblings spend more time together during childhood than with their parents—highlighting how integral these relationships are.
Annie shares her personal story of losing her brother Ben, who was killed in Afghanistan after enlisting pre-9/11 with aspirations to serve politically and make impactful changes. The raw recounting of receiving the devastating news underscores the surreal nature of loss and its immediate emotional upheaval.
Key Takeaways:
- Sibling Relationships: Often our longest-lasting bonds, crucial yet frequently neglected in grief discussions.
- Suppressing Emotions: Surviving siblings might downplay their grief to protect grieving parents.
- Anger & Coping: Allowing oneself to feel intense emotions like anger can be vital for healing.
- Cultural Misunderstandings: Children aren’t necessarily emotionally equipped despite exposure; they need support tailored to their developmental stage.
- Grief’s Unique Forms: Each person’s process is distinct; societal stages don’t capture every individual experience.
Annie highlights that while society often overlooks sibling mourners, acknowledging their unique grief journey is essential. Her advocacy through writing serves as a reminder that all forms of grief deserve recognition and respect.
Ultimately, this episode sheds light on navigating complex emotions following a sibling’s death while stressing self-compassion and honest emotional expression as pillars for coping with such irreplaceable losses.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Understanding Sibling Grief with Annie Sklar Orenstein
Introduction
Grieving the loss of a sibling is an often overlooked but profoundly impactful experience. In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” we are joined by author and qualitative researcher Annie Sklar Orenstein, who delves into the complexities of sibling grief through her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief. With over a decade of expertise in storytelling and oral history, Annie sheds light on why siblings deserve more recognition in the grieving process.
The Unique Bond Between Siblings
Annie points out that sibling relationships often last longer than any other familial bond. From childhood to adulthood, siblings share countless experiences that shape their identities. This deep connection makes losing a sibling uniquely painful. For instance, she highlights how children spend more time with their siblings than parents or fathers—a statistic supported by research.
Annie’s own children exemplify this bond; they share a room and know each other’s quirks better than anyone else in the family. This intimate relationship underscores why surviving siblings feel such an intense void when one passes away.
Personal Story: Loss of Her Brother Ben
The discussion naturally shifts to Annie’s personal experience—losing her brother Ben, who died while serving in Afghanistan due to an unexpected suicide bombing. Through recounting these events, she paints a vivid picture of sudden loss and its immediate impact on loved ones.
Ben’s death brought about overwhelming emotions for Annie and her family. She describes transitioning from everyday activities like babysitting her nephew to facing unimaginable grief together as news spread quickly among them.
Anger and Emotional Expression
One particularly resonant aspect was Annie’s struggle with anger—a new emotion for someone not typically prone to it—and how unfiltered emotional expression helped cope initially before time gradually eased some pain elements. She emphasizes allowing oneself space for raw feelings rather than suppressing them entirely can be crucial during mourning periods involving significant losses such as those stemming from close-knit relationships like between brothers/sisters alike!
Societal Oversight & Cultural Contexts
A noteworthy point discussed involves societal oversight regarding mourning practices where people often focus predominantly upon parents/partners whilst neglecting equally important roles played within families – namely surviving siblings themselves! This lack thereof awareness leads many feeling isolated/unacknowledged amidst collective sorrows shared amongst kinfolk collectively too…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me on this episode of grieving voices. Today, I’m excited to have Author Annie Slaver Orenstein. She is a qualitative researcher, oral historian and storyteller who has spent over a decade. Collecting stories from people around the world. Her work has been featured on NBC Daily News, Comedy Central, Hotbig Tim Post, political, time, and motherly. In always a sibling, the forgotten, mourners, guide to grief, Annie uses her own story and those of others to create the empathic, thoughtful, practical resource that surviving siblings so desperately need. And I did read it, and thank you so much. For sharing your work with the world. And what was eye opening for me even just early on in the first few chat couple chapters, I was like, I never really thought about how our relationship with our sibling is the longest relationship we have. Never ever looked at it like that. So thank you for that awareness that you brought to me. Amongst many other things, according to my notes. But I really enjoyed the book and I really do feel like it’s a wonderful asset for people who have lost a sibling. I personally have not lost a sibling, but I tell you just reading the book, I thought about my sister and my brother a lot, obviously, my siblings. But I’m very tight with my sister. She’s nine years older than me. And, you know, it was like my second mom and has, you know, kind of been the motherly figure in my life for much of my life. So Yeah, the bond. Right? The the sibling bond. They know your childhood, like, nobody else. That’s very true.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: They do and they you know, one of the things that I thought was so interested. There there are a lot of stats that I learned and that I heard that really stuck with me. And one of I guess, two, that really resonated with me and I think really like encapsulate this is that children siblings spend more time together in childhood than they do with their parents. And that more people, I believe this is a US debt, but more people grow up in a household with siblings than with fathers. And I look at my own kids, they’re six and nine. They absolutely spend more time together than with me. You know? And after school, they’re with us, or they’re in upper school, but they’re together. They share a room. And after I leave at night, they don’t fall right to sleep. I wish they fall right to sleep, you know, but there’s chattering and there’s stuff going on and they absolutely, you know, no things about each other that I don’t know. There will be times where, you know, my daughter tells me something, and I’m surprised to hear it, and my son is like, I’ve known that for weeks. And it’s it’s true. You know, it just it it’s how families function. It’s not like a judgment. It’s just how it’s how families function. It’s how things work. And so regardless of, you know, an adulthood whether or not you have a good relationship or a bad relationship or, you know, as most are somewhere in the middle, that time together and that, you know, kind of pressure cooker relationship, it it impacts you. It makes you who you are in many many ways.
Victoria Volk: Yes. And that was, like, I had so many ahas when I was as I was reading and and And today, we’re we’re talking about Ben, and that’s what your book is about is the loss of your brother. And the one question I had early on in the book is I’m a veteran. And I was in the National Guard. Your brother was in the reserves. Mhmm. And one of the questions I had early on in my notes was, what made him enlist in the first loop?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s a great question. And I asked him that no shortage of time. He so there were a few things. One is that he had some political aspirations. He wasn’t, like, necessarily sure if he would run for office, but maybe he would work for a politician or something like that. And he had a very strong kind of drive for service, and he felt like if he was going to do that, he should have a military background. And that having a military title would help him. He studied international affairs and diplomacy at at Fletcher, and he worked for the CDC and for FEMA. And he really felt like you know, having that having that credential would help him. It was when he enlisted, it was two thousand. So this was pre-nine eleven. They paid for him to go to grad school, know, they paid they paid for Fletcher, and and he got the the officer title. And then, you know, the second piece of it is that he had this idea that is I mean, you tell me, but logical ish to me that NGO, there are places that the Army can can go and can work and can help that aren’t even accessible to NGOs. And the army has these incredible resources and huge amounts of money, and he felt like if he was on the inside, he could use that to go into these places that really needed help and he could help them. And so on the one hand, it was kind of a strategic move. And on the other hand, it was like, and while I’m here, I actually think I can make change from the inside and do all of this good work. And that was, you know, ultimately what he was a civil affairs officer, and that was ultimately, you know, you know, what what he was working towards was a lot of infrastructure projects. And he did on his first deployment in Africa, they were bringing clean water and building wells, and he ended up forming a nonprofit when he got home to continue that work. So it was it was really a a combination of things. But I will tell you that when, you know, on nine eleven and when those towers went down, it that was when I started to be terrified. And I thought, like, why did you just do this? You know, he had finished boot camp in so I guess it was two thousand one. He had finished boot camp in August. And then the twin towers went down. And it was very quickly. We were like, oh, this is not this is not gonna be what you thought it was.
Victoria Volk: I want you to mention the nonprofit he started because I I’m kinda wondering just even reading the book. You alluded to that it’s still going. But what happened was because it was called it’s called clear water initiative.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Clearwater initiative. It was absorbed eventually. After a few my parents ran it for a few years. And it was then absorbed by another clean water NGL or absorbed I I don’t know what the right word is. Like, it’s not like it was bought, but it was like
Victoria Volk: absolved? Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So they’re still, you know, continuing the work, but it’s not run by our family anymore, it’s international lifeline fund, I believe, is what it’s what the larger organization is called, that has since kind of absorbed it and is running the project.
Victoria Volk: No, we haven’t mentioned when he actually passed and how long it’s been since you wrote the book and all of that. Can you can we kind of rewind a little bit? And then I kind of wanna re pass forward again to that mission that you initially had after he passed to give up your own dreams to pursue his and Mhmm. Kinda yeah. Let’s rewind the clock and then kind of fast forward again.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Of course. So rewind the clock to when when he passed. So he was deployed to Afghanistan in July of two thousand and nine, and he was killed on October second of two thousand nine. So it was almost, I think, just shy of three months into his deployment. And he was civil affairs officer. And so they, you know, they obviously dealt a lot with civilians, community leaders. And what we’ve been told and I I’ve since spoken to men and his unit is that there was what he thought was, you know, a meeting with a local community leader and they were out on foot and that was kind of part of it was they would go out on foot and all these things because they didn’t want to be threatening. They didn’t want to, like, show up to a meeting with a local leader in a tank. Right? So they show up on foot. The village was pretty empty, like in hindsight, suspiciously empty. But they got to where they were supposed to be this person and walked around to the back of the building, and there was a suicide bomber just waiting for them. And my brother who was the captain of their unit and then one other soldier in the unit and their translator were all killed.
Victoria Volk: And so receiving that news?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So I was you know, it surprised me at the time and still does, but, like, just how quickly they got the news to us. You know, it was that day. My parents had always said things like, no news is good news. And in, you know, leading up to that point, any period of not hearing anything, I found really terrifying. And then I realized just how quickly there were soldiers showing up at my parent store staff, and I realized no news is good news because if there’s bad news, they find you. So that night. It was a Friday. And my other brother, my brother, Sam, had a one year old, and who is now about to turn sixteen, which is wild. And I was babysitting. I was babysitting my nephew. I had just, you know, he was asleep. I had ordered dinner and I was sitting in my brother’s apartment and the front door opened. And my first thought was What is the delivery guy have a key to their apartment? I think that’s weird. And I kind of stood up to go walk over and see what was going on. And my brother and sister-in-law were standing there, and they did not look. Okay. And my my first thought was they must have gotten in a fight and, you know, now they’re home. And and literally, my first thought was like, oh, am I still gonna get this sushi or, like, am I gonna have to leave? And, like, do I wait for the delivery guy? Like
Victoria Volk: This will
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: just you know, it it really I don’t know how their faces didn’t break me out more, but they just kind of sandwiched me in a hug, and my brother Sam said, it’s Ben. And I said he’s but he’s okay. Right? And Sam said, no. Then far. And I remember sitting on their couch and kind of rocking than just saying this is not supposed to happen. This is not supposed to happen. And, you know, the kind of chain of events my dad had gotten home and there were soldiers on the on the doorstep. According to our neighbors. They had been there for a few hours, just waiting. And, you know, my parents ultimately called Sam and my my other brother. And I was living alone at the time, and so they were planning to drive into New York City to tell me because they were nervous about me getting the news, you know, alone in my apartment. And Sam said to them, she’s she’s sitting on my couch. I’ll go tell her. So he had to come home and tell me. And my brother Ben was engaged at the time and his fiance’s house was kind of in the middle of where we lived and where my parents lived. So we all met there. And then I went back home with my parents. And, you know, my it just felt like everything. Everything kind of crumbled in that moment. Right? Like, I was sitting there waiting for, like, dinner delivery. I was babysitting my nephew. And then the next thing I knew I was you know, a few hours later, I was back in my childhood home and we were figuring out who’s gonna drive to Dover to meet the transport plane and who’s gonna tell our grandma who’s you know, mid nineties and and just the the speed of it all was really surprising to me. The speed at which they got him home, the the speed at which we got the news, like, it all happened very fast especially considering that it happened very, very far away.
Victoria Volk: I like to I not like to, but I kinda think of trauma as too much, too soon, too fast.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. You
Victoria Volk: know Mhmm. How our minds can ruminate on that. On just getting the news. Right? And and what was it? Then it’s, like, later, it’s, like, a complete blur. You just I you know, having been deployed, you never I mean, it’s like, you know, we’re we’re busy. Right? We’re busy doing things and doing the mission every day and to think about the family sitting at home. Right? We, you know, we have we don’t know that side of it. My husband was through at the same time, so it was like we had a lot of family that was probably losing sleep and wondering if they were going to get a knock on the door, we did lose three men on our deployment and because we cleared roadside bones. That’s what we did. And I was a medic. So, yeah, it’s that’s the other side of the coin that the family sacrificed too. The families suffer too. And so Yeah. I I just you don’t go on deployment thinking you’re not gonna come home, but you definitely know that’s a possibility. Right? And every day Mhmm. The wire you think is today the day. And Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think about to the you know, and you were saying, like, too much, too fast. Like, I think about some of the, like, phone calls or things that that I thought were, like, really important, you know, in that moment. Like, I remember when I was done babysitting, I was going to meet up with a friend who was in town, who lived elsewhere. And I think I texted her something like, I’m I’m not gonna make it out tonight. My my brother was just killed in Afghanistan. You know? And, like, I called I was in grad school and we had, like, a Saturday workshop. And I was really nervous to call the head of my program to tell her I wasn’t gonna make it the next day. You know? And, like, I just didn’t even I didn’t know what I was saying. I didn’t know what I was doing. You know? I think there was a part of me that felt like this is the beginning and this is about to get really crazy. Like as soon as I get home as soon as I am with my parents, as soon as whatever, like, a lot of things are going to happen very quickly, and I need to just make sure no one expects anything of me, you know. In hindsight, like, I think it could have just not shown up. I could have just said, like, something came up. I’m not gonna be there or just not responded at all. You know, like but now I think about being on the receiving. Like, what would I have done if I had gotten that text from someone. What do you you know, but you’re just, like, the it it felt like methodical. Like, I didn’t know what it was doing, but I knew that I shouldn’t stand someone up. I knew that I shouldn’t just skip class. So, like, let me just let these people know, and then I can fall apart and do all of these other things. But but yeah. In hindsight, I was like, man, I, like, I knew what not. To do those few little things even though I genuinely you know, aside from that, I felt like I had no idea what was going on.
Victoria Volk: Almost as if the world stands still and then spinning around. Okay. And then your standstill, and it’s like everyone else is moving. It’s
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Yeah. And there was, like, no real filter for a while. Like, you know, I couldn’t think straight enough to even, like, filter myself. This is a this is a terrible story, but I I volunteered to go to my grandmother who was a character. She was very mean. So Leo loved her. And everyone else went to Dover. And I get cars sick and the idea of sitting in an eleven passenger van and driving from Connecticut to Delaware and back in one day so that I could see this casket move planes was too much. Like, that I something about the idea of being in that van and knowing I would be sick the whole like, I couldn’t do it. So I said, I’ll I’ll go tell grandma. And I told my grandma, you know, Ben was killed in Afghanistan. She said, what? Ben was killed in Afghanistan. And she kept saying what, and I kept saying it louder. And my boyfriend at the time, now my husband is, like, just standing off to the side, you know, clearly doesn’t know what to do is I’m just saying this over and over. And my grandma says, again, she’s in her mid nineties. And my grandma says, it should have been me. And I said, I know. Who’s like that? Except, yes, she was in her mid nineties. Yeah. But we all thought she would be the next one to go, you know? And I think about that all the time that she said it should have been made. And I said, I know. And she didn’t bat and I. You know? Like, she didn’t think it was weird. It was probably the most honest thing I’ve ever said. But there was just no filter left. You know, there was no it was all I could do just to go through the motions and to to try to to try to be gentle about anything was just, I think, more than I could, more than I could do.
Victoria Volk: That brings up anger for me in your book. You devote, like, a whole chapter to it, and the role of anger. And I’m curious what you would say to this, but what what did anger reveal to you about your grief?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think a lot of times anger was like the proof that I was not okay. You know, I’m an emotional person. I’d been an emotional person. I’m an anxious person. I’m not an angry person. Anchor was was new for me. And it and that made it really scary because you know, if I was feeling anxious or nervous, okay, I felt this before. I was feeling stat or lonely. Okay. I felt this before, but the anger. You know, everything else was a heightened emotion, the anger felt like a new emotion, scary emotion. And I couldn’t say, I I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know you know, how to channel it or or where to put it. And so I it made me feel very out of control and made me feel like I can’t like, pretend I’m okay because this is, like, not okay. And it would be very spud in, you know, as as anger can be.
And I just didn’t I didn’t expect it to be as intense as it was. I didn’t think it would be as hard to control as it was. And it was, you know, a part of grief that I didn’t know what to do with, really. And my brother was so not an angry person. He was very generous and loving and, like, a gentle giant, you know. And so anger wasn’t, you know, wasn’t in a motion I had really seen him demonstrate maybe ever. Even when I was like, I’m eight years younger, I spent plenty of time bothering him when he was in high school and annoying him. And he never got mad at me. He never got angry. And so it felt, you know, it felt bad. It felt kind of out of control, but it also felt like, out of character for me and out of character for him, you know? Like, I felt like he wouldn’t be this way. He wouldn’t be like this. Now, of course, he would. If someone else, you know, in our family had died instead of him, I’m sure he would have been just as angry as the rest of us. But it it felt very, like, a very unknown emotion to me. And so I I found it very, like, disconcerting and and kind of frightening.
Victoria Volk: What did you find that worked or helped you kind of soften the edges of that anger?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Time helped, but that’s, like, the worst possible answer. It’s, you know, one of the things that we have no control over. Letting myself be angry helped. You know, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, not trying to suppress it or, you know, ignore it. But, like, letting myself feel really pissed off. You know, I tell the story in the book of, like, breaking all of these dishes in my apartment. I tried that. It didn’t help as as much as I wanted. But there were definitely, like, yelling, screaming, like, yelling into a pillow, and just it was like it was like I had to get it out of my body in some way. And so crying yelling, not trying to you know, I would try to, like, hold it in and keep it together and be, you know, normal, but I thought it was normal. Even if I was just like home alone, which was so unnecessary. You know, if you can’t fall apart when you’re home alone, like, you have to be you have to let yourself do that. So I think, you know, when I let myself, like, yeah, I’m really angry. I am feeling really angry right now. And I’m just going to let myself feel really angry right now. And you know, maybe I’d go for a walk, maybe I’d scream into my pillow and eat nachos and watch arrested development, you know. But sometimes it was that, like, laughing would help, you know, I watched arrested development a lot. But I think, ultimately, it was just letting myself be angry and not trying to deny that. Was kind of ultimately, like, the thing that helped me deal with it the most.
Victoria Volk: Before Ben’s passing and growing up, what had been the conversation around grief and death and dying and you know, was it something that was openly talked about in your home or, you know, where you could express things and was it yeah. What what were the beliefs and the things that were kinda shared about grief and death and dying as you grew up.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. It was talked about, but I also think we were exceptionally fortunate. You know, my four grandparents all lived into their nineties. You know, the my my grandpa maybe my grandpa was eighty nine or ninety, but everyone else was mid nineties. But there were two the two years I was in grad school, I lost two grandparents, one uncle, and my brother. So it was kind of all at once. But, like, you know, I remember the first big loss was when my grandfather died, and that was in seventh grade. And, you know, I’m sure I’m sure we didn’t see all of the crying. I’m sure we didn’t see all of the emotion. But, like, I I my parents ex you know, they expressed emotion. They expressed grief. I remember in freshman year of high school, a dear friend of mine whose mom had grown up with my dad, and that was how I knew her. And her mom passed away. She had been stick with cancer for for a while. And I remember getting home from volleyball practice, and my dad was sitting on the front porch crying. And he told me, you know. And so it wasn’t it wasn’t a tabbing subject, but at the same time, we didn’t lose that many people, you know. And we didn’t lose them other than, you know, Laura, my friend’s mom, you know, my grandparents have lived very long, full lives, and it’s different, you know, to bury someone in their nineties versus someone in their thirties. And so by the time Ben died, you know, I had lost one friend and three of my grandparents. So grief existed. It was around, but but it was different. It was a different kind of grief than this was.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced great experiences since been past and since the book has been written and published and what have and what has been your approach differently now in those experience. If you’ve had them, I I don’t wanna assume you did. But
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. I mean, because my grandmother died shortly after Ben just about two months later.
Victoria Volk: One said it should’ve been me.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. And, you know, I think in that case, we were all still so deep in grief that it it didn’t feel distinct in its in its own way. And I have experienced a while since then. I have a good friend whose sister who I knew died. And and there have been some other losses, but none, fortunately, like none in my immediate family or or anything that close. I think I’ve learned a lot about supporting other people who are grieving and, you know, things to say and not to say and to just show up. But I I yeah. Fortunately, there has not been a loss at a cyclical incident. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: A large theme about your book is the lack of attention that’s given to the siblings after a sibling passes. And so I’d like you to share what that experience was for you, things that maybe were unhelpful that people said to you. Just advice or not even advice, but just reassurances and things that you would like to share with other siblings who may listen to this who have lost a sibling.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. Siblings are known as forgotten mourners. And when I read that, you know, in in some of the kind of academic literature and grief literature, I had this moment of, like, we don’t we all know this. Like, what are we gonna do about it? We’re like, we’re just referencing it and passing, you know, and I even asked some grief experts about it. And they were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s what they did. And it’s like, Why why didn’t anyone tell me this, you know? Why didn’t I know? And I think ultimately what it is is like people ask about other people and they don’t ask about you. So but you are the in. Right? So you’re the one that people can ask about how your parents are doing. And, you know, maybe how if it’s the sibling was an adult and was partnered, you know, how is the partner doing or how are the children doing? And I think that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with, you know, asking me how my parents are doing. The problem is that people would ask how your parents are doing and they don’t ask how you’re doing. So it’s not that, you know, you shouldn’t ask how someone’s parents are doing. It’s just first ask me how I’m doing. Then asks me how my parents are doing. Right? It’s not either or. But I’m not just the messenger. People will often ask the sibling questions that they would not ask a parent, you know, details on the cause of death, or things like that, you know, where a sibling might feel like a kind of a safe ally or, you know, someone who knows all of the dirty details, but isn’t the grieving parent so you can ask them. And all of those things are just I mean, you just shouldn’t ask. Right? If there’s a question that you wouldn’t ask the parent don’t ask the sibling. If you wouldn’t ask the spouse, don’t ask the sibling. Don’t put them in that position. Right? If someone wants to tell you, they’ll tell you. Or the advice I like to give is just like, do, like, a normal person does and just Google it. Right? Like, I have tried to Google people’s cause of death before. I am a very curious person. I’m a researcher. I have questions exactly. We all do it. Just just Google my brother. Right?
Victoria Volk: If you put more friends
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. Like, just do a little bit of Internet talking, and you might not you probably won’t find out all the boring details, but you’re gonna get a pretty good idea. And I think people, you know, they they ask the sibling as if the sibling is fine, but also the sibling has this insider knowledge. So, like, let’s get the info. And, you know, I think siblings also in many cases and this is not a dig, but I think siblings in many cases kind of diminish intentionally diminish their own grief. Because you are watching your parents, you know, completely fall apart, your parents have just lost a child. They are obviously not okay. Seeing them you know, seeing them grieve can be frightening, especially for, you know, younger people if you, you know, lose a sibling in childhood, you know, folks I’ve talked to who lost a sibling in childhood or early adolescence. Describe their parents’ grief as being frightening. And and so if you see your parents struggling that much, the last thing you wanna do is make it worse. You don’t want to make them worried. You don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to be a problem. They have enough on their plate. They’re dealing with enough. So you try to be as easy as you possibly can. I think, especially with children, again, that, like, children early adolescence goes to, like, I’m gonna be as easy as I can, so that no one has to worry about me, and I can just be the easy child. And you know, people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be that perfect surviving child and to live for for, you know, both of them and to never do anything wrong and never cause their parents any pain because they have seen their parent insignificant amount of pain and they don’t want to cause that. And I think in adult sibling loss, it looks more like just taking care of everything and not putting anything on your parents. Never wanting to be a burden. Never wanting to seem like you aren’t okay because you want them to believe that you and everything will be okay? And sometimes we’re very convincing. You know, sometimes if you do that enough and you do that for long enough, you can trick yourself into thinking that you’re fine. And, you know, the thing that I say a lot in the book, maybe too much. I wondered about this when I was reading the audiobook. If it gets better too much, is you can’t outrun Greek.
You might do a really good job, acting like you’re fine, and then five, ten years later, everyone else can talk about your sibling and laugh and reminisce and you can’t say they’re gay without crying. You know, you still feel raw, like like it was, you know, a month after they died. And that’s what it feels like, or it it manifest in other ways in, you know, on in harmful, like, self coping skills in in other ways that it manifests. And I think, ultimately, the thing that’s most difficult is, like, yes, you do wanna try to be kind of easy for your parents and you do want to, you know, no, they can’t handle your pain right now and they can’t take it on and they can’t support you the way that you want to be supported. All of those things are true, but you still need to try and support somewhere. And you still need to find an outlet. And it’s not gonna be your parents because they can’t help you. And they can’t be there for you in the way that you need someone to be there for you. But you have to find some way to face it and to deal with it. And conversely, you’re not really in a position to be your parents. Person or your parents best support. You know, you can support them in some ways, but, you know, there’s there’s a line where they can’t lean on you for everything because you do need to address your own grief and loss. And you can’t do that if you are the primary, you know, emotional caretaker of of your your parent. And so it’s a really difficult position because the people who are most affected and the people who know them the best and are probably grieving the most. Can’t be each other’s emotional support in every way, but you can sit together and you can cry together and you can talk about them together. You know, you just can’t you don’t have enough to give, you know. You you don’t have enough left to give to really be that for someone else, but you can still be together and you can still be experiencing it and grieving it together without having that kind of without trying to, like, put it on someone.
Victoria Volk: One of the as I was reading, like, I I read the book from the lens of as a child engraver who lost my father when I was eight. And so when you were talking about just the things what you were just saying, and there you we actually this is only the second time I came across I heard this word. Paratification. And what kind of Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. But there’s so many parallels between what I experience as a child grieving and what you described as a sibling grieving in the context of the relationship with the parents. And when one parent dies and the other is living, like there’s so many parallels of what that child experiences and what how you described it as a sibling with sibling loss. So I just wanna say, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, this book can bring up awarenesses and things for you that may not that you that kind of surprised you. So that was surprising to me how similar you described that and what my experience was. And you’ve mentioned this word parentification. Again, only second time I’ve heard this or seen this word, and it’s been, like, within a short amount of time. So I was, like, I’ve never heard this word. I’ve been doing I’ve been working with Grievers for, like, over four years. I’ve I you know, certified grief specialist, I’ve never heard this term. I’m like, so, but it’s when children are pushed into the parent role to be when it’s not developmentally appropriate, And you have a line in your book that says, I can’t take on your grief right now. And it’s only
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: that was a line from an interview. And this woman was saying that she you know, her mom was really relying on her calling her all hours the day or night whenever she is upset to talk to her and but she really had to set some boundaries. And I was fascinated by this because I was like, what did you say? I mean, admittedly, basically, my mom did not put that in my put me in that position, but I guarantee you. If she had, I would have latched on hook line and thinker. I would have answered every phone call. It would have completely drained me. But I would not have known how to push back or set a boundary. And I asked this woman at, oh, what did you say to her? And she was so it was like it came it seemed like it came so naturally to her. She said, I just told her I can’t take on your grief right now. And I remember scribbling it onto an index card, you know, and like highlighting it. Like, this means to go in This has a home in the book verbatim, you know, and it just yeah, I can’t take on your grief right now.
Victoria Volk: If only, if right? You know, and being a highly sensitive person, I’m like you, you know, deep feeler, helpers, healers, like, this is when you are and this is a thing, like, this is how, like, co dependency kind of, takes root and then just manifest. Right? In in in the dynamics of relationships when you have either a parent that had passed or, like, a sibling and then the relationship with the parent. Like, this is how this can, like, just kind of, really shift the dynamics of a relationship. You know? It Mhmm. It rocks everything. It, like, this rug is swept from underneath and all that you knew is no more. It completely changes everything and sometimes it brings out characteristics and things and people that because they don’t know what to do with what they’re feeling, you know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s like Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s gotta do something with it. Well, I’ll just call my child and my child can be my therapist, you know.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And my child understands and my child, you know, all of these things that are, you know I mean, probably not really true, but, like, you know, your child knew this person. They’re gonna answer your call. They’re, you know it just they’re gonna make you feel wanted or needed. Maybe, you know, I don’t know. But, yeah, it came up a lot. It came up in a lot of different people’s experiences. This, you know, just the authentication. You know, I think it’s the best word for it. It’s just making, putting the child into a role that is really developmentally appropriate for an adult and for a parent and not at all for a child. I think there’s also This is kind of related but broader. I think there’s this, like, larger cultural sentiment. They’re like, a lot of kids are growing up so fast and blah blah blah. But they’re not, you know, developmentally, biologically, they’re not. And so they’re exposed to more. They might know more. That doesn’t mean they’re equipped to handle it or that they’re equipped to handle these emotions. You know, our brains are not developing at a different speed. There’s just more input into it. And so it’s, I think, easy to think, to kind of fall into a trap of thinking that your child is an adult because they know big words and they can pair it back these things that they’ve seen on TikTok. But it doesn’t mean that their brain can actually understand or process or that you’re you know, that that they are emotionally prepared and developed and not to handle that stuff and and to handle the aftermath of it. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: I remind my kids all the time. Your frontal lobe is not developed until you’re like twenty five. So just kinda listen to me sometimes. I’ve been around the block longer than you. One thing I wanna get to and I actually just when I was reading this, I was like, I really wanna talk about this. And then I just recently saw one of your Instagram. You had done an interview and you talked about this very thing. And of course, I saw the title and I had to click on it and listen. But you were talking about the stages of grief. So in your book, it’s almost as if, like, like, you almost believed them. You believed in these things as a grief. Mhmm. And then fast forward to that instant that just recently listened to an interview. It’s like, oh, no. She doesn’t. There’s something else here. And so I actually had Ken Ross on my podcast, Elizabeth Kupala Ross’s son.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And but I wanna from your perspective, in your grief story, and what you were kind of experiencing at the time when you were writing the book? Because there was actually a little bit of a delay. Wasn’t that because there was it seemed like it was two years, like, towards the end. I can’t remember which chapter it was. It was, like, I’m thirteen years out. Yeah. But you’re actually fifteen years out.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I’m fifteen years. So the book I finished the book at this point. I submitted the manuscript a year and a half ago.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Because there was, like, a year where it was in production. And then and I was writing it for about after it sold until it was due you know, I was probably writing it for a year and a half and then it was in production for a year and a half and I started it even, you know, before I had told it. So it was really written over the course of a few years. I think I believed So, like, taking a step back, I think the context that we all miss is that the stages of grief were developed in the context of death and dying, not for griefers, but for the person who is dying. Right? No one ever explained that to me. I thought it was how we agreed. And it’s not. It it was never meant to be that. Right? And so I thought, okay, I go I’m supposed to go through these stages. And so if I’m not going through the stages or if I’m going through the stages out of order or whatever I’m doing this wrong, there was a lot of times where I thought I was doing it wrong. And I didn’t understand even really until I was doing the research for the book. I mean, when I was researching the book was a, I so I knew by the time I was writing the book, I knew that, like, there was something off with either me or the stages of grief because we didn’t really work together. And I kind of had chalked it up to, like, well, maybe the stages of grief are, like, true for some people, but maybe they’re just not universal. And then when I was writing it, it was when I learned that no, actually, they weren’t meant for grievers at all in the first place. So, you know, of course not, but also that now there’s, you know, a a lot of a lot of people who think that it’s actually harmful to say that they’re at these stages of agreement or the exact reason that I experience, which is that it makes people feel like they’re doing it wrong or that, you know, there’s only one way to grieve or something like that, which there just isn’t. And I think, you know, in the book, I spell out the in in a lot of detail, there are these fifteen different, you know, known and acknowledged types of grief. And for me, you know, part of why I did that, everything in the book was something that, like, I found helpful for myself personally. And I think In the case of those types of grief, I found that a lot more helpful than the stages of grief because there was a lot more room for interpretation. There’s a lot more kind of possible combinations and and ways to breathe and ways to change And to me, not only did those resonate a lot more with my own experience, but they also kind of helped debunk this myth that there is one way to grieve, and it is to go through these five stages. You know, because if there are fifteen different types of grief that you can experience in combination with each other and really an unlimited number of combinations with each other, then how could there be these five stages that everyone goes through. And and I felt like that looking at the types of group grief was really more helpful for reflecting on your own experience and giving everyone that kind of weight and validation that they’re griefs that that they’re not grieving wrong, but there is no wrong weight to grieve. There are perhaps harmful, you know, self harm ways to grieve and destructive ways to grieve. But it’s all Greek. You know, it’s not it’s not wrong.
Victoria Volk: Well, because when I was reading those fifteen, I was like, wow, this is a lot. And I I resonated with some, you know, more than others. And I just thought, you know what, though, I never even if someone would have shared those with me years ago. That is like, do you think we’re looking for a label to identify with? Like, in our grief? Like, we’re just looking, where do I belong? And where does my grief fit in the grand scheme of grief. But at the end of the day, none of those are helpful anyway, either because Mhmm. They’re not moving you through your grief. They’re not helping you process your grief. It’s just a way of the type of grief. So at the end grieve is grief. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Greece is great. I think the label is helpful because it makes you feel like you’re not alone and you’re not I don’t want to use the word crazy, but like, you are not you’re not doing it wrong, you’re not alone. Right? If if there are enough people who’ve experienced this thing, that they’ve come up with a name for it. Then I’m not the only one who has ever felt this way. And I think it’s that. It’s knowing that you are not alone, knowing that you are not losing your mind, knowing that you are not you know, reacting in a way that no one has ever reacted before or that you’re dover reacting or underreacting or whatever. I think the thing about a label is if there’s a label on something, then you are not the only one who has ever experienced this. There have been enough people who have experienced this that someone gave it a name, and that can be really validating. So, you know, and I think in some ways, it can help you figure out how to move through it because maybe you can figure out what the what the thing is to work on. But maybe then you work on it and you fall into one of the you know, like, it’s it’s it’s all gonna be a lifelong process. It’s not it’s never gonna be, like, fixed. But I do think especially for siblings who feel like their loss and their grief has been ignored and diminished to begin with. It’s really easy to feel like you’re overreacting or you’re doing this wrong or you’re not really supposed to be grieving or any of these other things. And so the label gives validation to the emotions you’re feeling even if it might not you know, give you a a path or like a step by step plan to follow, it makes you feel less alone and it makes you feel less like you’ve lost control of your mind.
Victoria Volk: Can we talk about forgiveness? Yes. Okay. So I am curious if you in your research ever heard of the book, the grief recovery handbook?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. Oh. Or maybe I’ve heard of it, but I don’t think I’ve read it.
Victoria Volk: K. Well, this is me going through the handbook. You know, I’m like a researcher too. Right? Like, I can do this myself. I can go through this process myself. Yeah. No. I became certified group specialist out as I went after I realized I couldn’t do it myself. But I wanna talk about forgiveness because I’m curious if that has shifted for you a little bit since the book has been out. Because when you talked about it in your book, it was it was as if it was it’s like a gift you give somebody else. But what I’ve learned is that forgiveness as a gift I give myself. Mhmm. So I’m curious how if that’s shifted for you or if maybe that’s a perspective that you hadn’t considered before?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I don’t think I struggled with forgiveness as much as a lot of the people that I interviewed and spoke with. You know, there were there were people for whom forgiveness, you know, often because of the cause of death or, you know, the things that led up to it. Forgiveness was a big ask. And forgiveness was something where hearing their story I I can’t help but always kind of imagine myself in that position. And there were some stories where I thought I don’t I don’t know if I would have gone to forgiveness or could have gone to forgiveness. And so I was but I found myself being extremely you know, I found the forgiveness that people gave their loved ones to be extremely admirable. You know? And I would think I don’t know if I could have forgiven, but the fact that you did is incredible to me and it feels like such a gift. And I think, yes, it’s a gift to the other person, but This is a terrible thing to say, but if you’ve read the book, you know, I I again have very little filter. They don’t need your forgiveness because they’re dead. Right? And I do think that even when people are dead, they’re around us and their spirits are around us and we can feel their presence. But I think that by the time you’re a spirit that’s around us, you also kind of don’t need our forgiveness anymore. Like, hopefully, they know what the purpose was, and they know the greater meaning, and they probably look at us and think, like, you’ll get it one day. You know? And so I do I think forgiveness is for us. I don’t think forgiveness is for them. You know, I don’t think that that my brother, wherever he is, is losing sleep or, you know, worried that we’re not gonna forgive him. I think he sees a much bigger picture than we do, but I think it’s easy for us to loosely over giving that forgiveness. So I do think that forgiveness is when it comes to grief, you know, forgiveness and life, something different. But when it comes to forgiving someone who has died, I think it is a gift that we give ourselves, not something that we do on their behalf.
Victoria Volk: Well, and the thing is is you’re never gonna get an apology. Right? They’re gone?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. You’re never gonna get an apology, and they’re never gonna be, like, thank you so much for forgiving me.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. So you’re sitting
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: out, like,
Victoria Volk: he’ll jail. You’re stuck in jail until yep. Can do that for yourself. Yeah. And that’s why it is yeah. So in this book is what it says, forgiveness is giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I like that. Can I hang up? Any memorized letter yesterday?
Victoria Volk: Any memorized resentment of past events will limit and restrict our ability to participate fully in life. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Forgiveness is an action. It’s not a feeling.
And it is possible. I’ve
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: done it. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Read this book. Definitely.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I will.
Victoria Volk: It I think it will give you and then reach out to me and let me know what your thoughts are. I’m I’m really curious.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well,
Victoria Volk: one of the interesting things I found in your book to key points that I wanna bring up is You talk about one of the hardest things about sibling loss is accepting that the departed sibling existed in only one phase or part of the surviving sibling’s life. And It’s like as if, like, you know that it’s like they’re frozen in time in this phase of your life and all the phases that are to come, they’re not a part of it and how they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And can fill the gaps. And that struck a chord with me because, you know, I’m nine years younger than my sister, and she’s already filling the gaps for me for many years. Like, you know, because she obviously remembers more than I do about certain things. And I loved how you were called Squaver kitten. You know, because, you know, my sister is Veronica, and I’m Victoria, and she’s she’s always been big v and I’m little v. So we kinda have that. But yeah. And I would like you to speak to that just that how that’s kind of a consistent theme that you saw in the research that you were doing and it may be your own experience. Howard Bauchner:
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. You know, I think going back to, you know, how we started this conversation and talking about siblings as our longest relationship. You know, they really biologically, they really should be our longest shared relationship. And that the your siblings, you know, are part of your life before any kind of adult partnership ornaments. And they continue in your life past the death of your parents. Traditionally. Right? Typically. And so you just they’re just always there. You always expect them to be there. Right? And you always expect, you know, you said your sister is nine years older than you. And so your sister should always be nine years older than you because she has always been nine years older than him. My brother was eight years older than me. So I’m now older than him.
Which is not the way the world should work. Right? Is
Victoria Volk: Wanting to skip your birthday in the book?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Yes. It’s like, you know, that Internet mean. Like, the math doesn’t matter. Like, my brother is eight years older than me, but I am older than him. Mhmm. And so you just expect that they will always be there because they always have been there and because that’s the birth order and that’s how that works. And so it’s hard to imagine there’s there’s I write about this in the book that there’s, like, a link between the part of our brain that we use for imagination and the part of our brain that we use for memory. So it’s hard to imagine something that, you don’t have a memory of it and and kind of vice versa. They’re they’re connected. And so I don’t have, you know, I didn’t have a memory of a world that he didn’t exist in. And so I couldn’t imagine a world that he didn’t exist in. It didn’t logically make sense to me. Because of the way our brains are wired, you know, there’s a very clear reason why that connection wasn’t made. And, you know, for me, I just always assumed my kids would know their uncles. And that, you know, my brother always wanted kids. I I assumed he would be a dad. Right? I didn’t think I would hit those milestones. Without him present, I didn’t think I would hit milestones that he never did. And it it really forces you to rewire, to literally rewire the synapses in your brain to understand the world in a different way. And siblings create their identities, you know, compared to and in opposition to each other. And so they’re such a central figure in our identity development and in who we are and then they’re gone. And it’s really hard to to center yourself again and just to figure out how everything now fits together with that key piece that’s missing. Again, even if it’s a bad relationship. Maybe your whole identity development has been based on the fact that no matter what you do not want to be like your sister, then you do everything different than your sister. Your sister is still a lynchpin in that identity development. So when she’s gone, when you’re not anchoring yourself on making sure you’re different than her, then who are you, and what do you do? You know, it’s hard to even imagine it. Because it’s just such an unknown world. And getting older than that is a real you know, I don’t know I don’t know if you were at that point with the loss of your father, but I’ve heard the same thing from people who’ve lost a parent that becoming older than your parent can feel very disorienting. You know?
Victoria Volk: It was actually, I’m just I’m yeah. He died when he was forty four. Mhmm. And for me like, turning forty four for me, I couldn’t experience that year without knowing or feeling like now imagine if I was given six months to live. You know what I mean? Like, putting myself in those shoes and imagining myself like my father and his experience and and he actually lived, like, sixteen months. But yeah. In turning forty five and being older. Yeah. It’s it’s those those dates. Right? Those milestones that they don’t stop even thirty plus years out. They don’t stop. Mhmm. And so this brings me it’s a good segue into because we’re kinda getting short on time, but I wanna bring this up because I think it’s so important. It’s a huge undercurrent in your book is music. Mhmm. How important music was to bend? How important it had been to your healing in through the throughout the book? You song lyrics have been huge. And then they get to the end of the book and you mention, and I was like, what? Indigo girls was his favorite band. I was Mhmm. Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: What? Mhmm. I You were in the military. That has to be rare. Right? That there are soldiers
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Favorite band to be Indigo girls.
Victoria Volk: I actually so I actually texted my a girlfriend of mine, your book, and I said I just finished this. And she just said at the end that her you know, that Indigo Girls was her brother’s favorite band, and I just I thought of her because she and I have spent spent so much time in high school even after. Like, we’re still friends, you know, driving cruising down the road, seeing it. Like, I had the Elko part, she had the Sipreno, like, I’ve seen them in concert. Like, I think I even have a gut guitar pick that they threw out. Yeah. So I was like, what? Like, I don’t know. Like, he would have been like I like, I feel like he’s like a kindred spirit some way. Just how you described him and talked about him and through the music and all that.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Can I tell you a really good Indigo Girl story that happened after the book?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So Indigo Girls were coming to New Haven, which is where I live. And this was last August or September, just about a year ago. And I bought tickets to go with three of my girlfriends. And one of the first concerts I had been to was Indigo Girls in New Haven, after this concert venue called The Palace. So It’s approaching, I get the edits back from the publisher and they are due the same day as the Indigo World concert. So now the Indigo World concert takes on even more weight because now I’m like, okay, I need to hit send on this. Before the concert. And this is gonna be our celebratory concert. So I get to edits in, you know, everyone’s excited. My girlfriend’s all everyone’s excited. And I’m telling them about this first Indigo Girls concert I went to, which my brother Sam was also at. We all we all went through Indigo Girls faces. And and I was telling them about the policy at her, and I I was like, I get I don’t think it even exists anymore. And we walk into this venue. And I was like, this place looks like the Palace, and I Google it, and it is the Palace Theater, just new management and they changed the name. So now I realized I’m at the same you know, venue where it’s one of my first concerts, Indigo growth, all of these things. And we’re stand I was like, I’m gonna get something from the merch table. We’re standing in line with the merch table, and I say to my friend, Dana, I wish there was something that was, like, a piece of merch that was like symbolic of finishing the book and, you know, getting the manuscript in. And she said, you mean like that t shirt that has a bookcase on it? And their swag was like band book and it was like the t shirt had these bookshelves on it and the front pocket looked like a library, hard pocket. So I get so I get the tshirt, walk in the whole set is these oversized bookshelves with books on it. And then they start playing and they start playing one of the songs that I have in their book that starts with that’s a newer song. I hadn’t heard it before, but it the first line of the song is oh, Annie. I am sorry for your grief. So they start playing that song, which is kind of a, like, b side, like, deep track. Right? I’m crying. And I said to my friends, if they do power of two next, I I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I’m I’m probably gonna faint. Churna, next step they pray the power of two. And I am just balling, you know. And it was just it was, like, I you know what I’m talking about, this is the book that, like, I I was a bit obtuse to signs for a while. I was not really open to them. And eventually, once I was, I kind of realized that my brother had been, like, beating me over the head with them. And after power of two, my friend was like, so can we all agree that this was a sign? I said, yes. Yes. I feel like he’s here. And it was just, like, amazing moment where I, you know, I felt like he was at the concert with us. I felt like he was at the concert with us and I felt like he kept being like, Annie, I’m here. I’m still here. Don’t write this off. I know you’re gonna write this off. Let me just give you a little bit more proof. This is me. You know, it looks like again and again and again and it was just amazing. It was just it was an incredible experience and it felt like very much a culmination of of everything I had been working on and, you know, everything that he had loved. And, yeah, it was just incredible.
Victoria Volk: I have chill bumps and chill bumps. It truth bumps, I’ll say. Yeah. If that’s not a sign, holy
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: grail. Exactly. By the end of
Victoria Volk: In the book, you talked about with the little blue flowers, and I was like, whoa. That’s that’s pretty good sign. You’ll just have to read the book my friends to read that one, but it you talk I I’m glad you went there about the continuing bonds because, you know, depending on how you grow up and what your beliefs are and, you know, maybe as a child, you weren’t taught that, hey, you can still talk to your loved one. You can still talk to your sibling. You can still talk to your dad or your mom or whomever passed away or your childhood friend, you know, we aren’t or your pet even. Right? Like, you children, you know, they completely they totally bond with their pets. We just aren’t taught that that that bond can continue. You know, I think as adults, we kind of pass our beliefs, whatever they are onto our kids. And so we don’t believe that. We believe when you die, you just die, you go with the grave, and there’s that’s all that there is. Then, of course, that’s what children will believe. And you you don’t rule that continuing bonds is is possible, and that can be really healing for people.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think growing up, I’m Jewish, and growing up, you know, I kind of was taught or believe that there’s a heaven, but there’s not a hell. Like, Jews don’t have a hell. And so I thought there was a heaven that everyone went to, but I didn’t think there was, like, any kind of connection between life on earth and whatever’s going on in heaven. So, like, when my grandfather died, when when people died, I imagined them, like, off in heaven, hanging out together, having a blast. But not that there was a back and forth or that there was a connection. And I I think I, you know, obviously, I eventually got there, but it was like I was kinda way there, you know, but I didn’t really I didn’t really think there was a relationship between the two so much, but now now I do.
Victoria Volk: Well, you need to talk about how that came about in the book too, and so people just have to read the book to find out. So just keep plugging the book in that way. But yeah. I and there’s like, there’s so much more I could talk about. But I know you have to get going, but I just wanna thank you for this work that you put out in the world. And again, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, if you’ve lost somebody else in your life, there’s something you can glean from this book. Again, I have more things that we could talk about, but I want you to give you an opportunity if you want to share something that you don’t feel you got to, that you feel is important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I’d love to this conversation and all of your questions, and I think You’re the only I think the biggest message is just that it’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to grieve your sibling. You know? It makes sense. That you’re grieving your sibling. And, you know, I want people to know that they are allowed to that they are that they don’t need to be stomach, and they don’t need to be okay. And it’s, you know, it’s okay to also breathe. And Yeah. I think that’s the takeaway.
Victoria Volk: What comes to my mind, I get this visual of, like, you know, when you kinda shrink down and you get small because the grief around you of other people is so big and you kinda just make yourself small. And it’s almost like you just kinda go like this. Just make room for it.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Make room Yes. Grieve. Yes. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you? Find your book? Can they connect with you all the things? I’ll put the links in the show notes, but I’ll have you share that as well.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So they can find the book, always the sibling, anywhere folks are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at annie Squaver, Ornstein, my name, or annie sorenstein dot com. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What are you working on now?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I don’t know. I really want to write something else and I’m trying to figure out what comes next. What’s the next idea? I have too many of them or perhaps not just not the right one. I don’t know. But working on figuring out what comes next.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I I have another I wrote a book too and a self-published though, and it’s I know I have another book in me, but it’s it hasn’t like like just landed. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Wake up one
Victoria Volk: day and you have a book title. I was like, oh, I got a book title.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And this one, you know, people ask, like, how was I able to do it? Because I have a full time job in kids. And it was like, well, I but I had to like, I I don’t know how I did it. I just knew I had to do it, and I I need that. I need to figure out, you know, what’s what’s the next one that I have to write. And I’m I’m excited to figure that out.
Victoria Volk: You made it a priority. And that’s the difference between I mean, everybody has twenty four hours in the day. It’s what you prioritize in those twenty four hours. I got up before five thirty every morning. That was just my writing. Exactly. Because that was happening to me. You make time for what’s important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. And I need to find that next thing that matters that much because that’s also when I would write my book, but it takes a lot for me to get up early. I hate it. I kept waiting to start enjoying it or to become a morning person and who’d get to happen. But clearly, if there’s a good enough reason, I will do it. So I am I am exploring possible reason to wake up early.
Victoria Volk: Well, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this book.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. Yeah. Anytime we have to be.
Victoria Volk: Thank you again. Well, stay connected online. I’m sure. So
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Alright. Sounds good.
Victoria Volk: Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today’s guest, Carolina Sotomayor, is a renowned fertility Reiki womb healer who shares how Reiki helped her conceive her son. We also dive deeper into her childhood stories and the emotional wounds that created what Carolina believes were the energetic blocks to conceiving.
Carolina’s Path to Healing 🧘♀️
- Personal Struggles: Initially struggling with conception despite no medical issues, Carolina turned to Reiki after suggestions from her grief therapist and a psychic.
- Journey Through Adversity: Her pregnancy was filled with challenges, including anxiety, surgeries, and postpartum depression. Reiki played a pivotal role in her recovery.
The Power of Energy Healing 💫
- Reiki Success Stories: With experience in four different lineages and over 100 successful “Reiki babies,” Carolina’s practice connects mothers-to-be with their spirit babies.
- Make A Baby Membership: Offers live sessions, guided meditations, prerecorded modules, and masterclasses for women on their fertility journeys.
Embracing Self-Care 🎗️
- Cultural Reflections: Highlights how societal conditioning often undervalues self-care leading to involuntary life pauses such as illnesses or accidents.
- Nonnegotiable Self-Care: Stresses make self-care nonnegotiable in releasing trapped emotions and preventing physical ailments and emotional blockages.
Overcoming Childhood Trauma 🛤️
- Tumultuous Upbringing: Raised by a single mother struggling with alcoholism and anger issues, she faced neglect from both parents post-divorce.
- Resilience & Boundaries: Shares insights on generational pain while emphasizing the importance of setting boundaries for emotional well-being.
Transformative Insights 🌺
- Recognizes that ignoring personal healing can lead to profound crises.
- Advocates for prioritizing oneself as central to breaking cycles of trauma.
Carolina’s experiences underscore the transformative power of confronting unresolved emotions. She passionately advocates recognizing self-worth while creating supportive communities worldwide to help women achieve their motherhood dreams.
Let this episode inspire you to embrace your journey toward healing and hope! 💖
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Healing Power of Reiki in Fertility and Personal Growth
In the latest episode of “Grieving Voices,” I delve into a profound conversation with Carolina Sotomayor, a fertility Reiki womb healer. Carolina’s journey from personal struggles to becoming a beacon of hope for women on their fertility journeys is nothing short of inspiring.
A Journey Rooted in Personal Experience
Carolina’s path to motherhood was fraught with challenges. Despite having no medical issues, she struggled to conceive. Her grief therapist suggested exploring Reiki or antidepressants due to unresolved sadness. This advice was echoed by a psychic who identified blockages in her throat and sacral plexus chakras.
After sustaining a concussion, Carolina decided to delve deeper into Reiki healing—a decision that changed her life forever. Shortly after beginning her practice, she conceived her son Ollie.
Overcoming Adversities Through Energy Healing
Carolina’s pregnancy brought its own set of complications—anxiety, medical surgeries, and ultimately a traumatic birth leading to Ollie’s NICU stay and severe postpartum anxiety and depression. It took 18 months for Carolina to recover fully through the combination of traditional therapy and Reiki healing.
Her experience profoundly transformed her understanding of energy healing’s potential, motivating her mission to help other women facing similar struggles.
The Cultural Undervaluation of Self-Care
One significant insight Carolina shares is the cultural undervaluation of self-care. She emphasizes how ignoring personal healing can lead to involuntary pauses like illnesses or accidents that force us to slow down and address our unresolved emotions.
Carolina recounts “God smack moments” where life forced her into reflection—moments crucial for releasing trapped emotions that could otherwise manifest as physical ailments or emotional blockages hindering fertility.
Societal Conditioning Against Emotional Expression
The discussion also touches upon societal conditioning discouraging emotional expression. Unresolved grief often manifests physically if not addressed properly—a point where practices like Reiki become invaluable in releasing these pent-up emotions.
Breaking Cycles Through Generational Pain
Raised by an alcoholic single mother amidst emotional neglect compounded by an abusive father post-divorce shaped much of Carolina’s resilience today. Through extensive therapy combined with support systems including friends & family alongside reiki practices allowed overcoming such adversities while setting healthy boundaries ensuring better mental health well-being now being passed onto future generations within families breaking cycles trauma altogether!
Practical Applications And Recommendations:
1) Prioritize Self-Care: Make time every day dedicated solely towards yourself whether it be meditation yoga etc., ensuring overall wellness both mentally physically spiritually alike! 2) Explore Alternative Therapies: Consider incorporating alternative therapies such as reiki acupuncture aromatherapy among others aiding holistic approaches addressing root causes rather than just symptoms alone! 3) Set Healthy Boundaries: Learn importance saying ‘no’ when necessary avoiding burnout maintaining healthier relationships around you too!
By sharing stories like Carolinas’, we hope inspire readers take proactive steps nurturing themselves fostering balanced lives benefiting everyone involved! For more insights connect directly via Instagram handle @thecarolinasotomayor website www.carolinasotomayor.com joining community supporting each other throughout various stages life’s beautiful yet challenging journey together!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Carolina Sotomayor. She is a fertility, rapey, womb healer, serving women who are trying to conceive. She’s the founder of Make A Baby membership, a monthly membership providing monthly live Reiki healing Zoom calls, Reiki guided meditations, prerecorded healing modules and master classes. Carolina has personally coached and helped women all over the world with over a hundred Reiki Babies into bringing over a hundred Reiki Babies into the world. She has a tune to four different lineages of Reiki and has a proven medium connecting mom to their spirit babies. After conceiving her own son with Reiki, Carolina has been on a mission to help women conceive with energy healing and heal through pregnancy and postpartum. I’m so excited to have you here because this is a unique line of work. And reiki isn’t unique, but I love how you’ve adapted it and have wielded its power for good and positive in your own life, but also in the lives of other So thank you for the work that you’re doing, bringing motherhood and parenthood to over a hundred people now.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s been exciting. Thank you so much for having me. I it was I believe in divine timing, intervention happening. And for me, Reiki was when it was happening to me and offered to me, I didn’t know it would end up here. So for me, I was struggling to conceive, and I was a newly wed, very much a struggling newly wed, married to the best man I had ever known and still heavily married too.
But we were not getting pregnant. There was nothing wrong with me. They said, you’re just really sad. So I started grief therapy. Still not getting pregnant.
And then I plateaued in my healing journey with her, and she’s like, you need to either do Reiki or get on an anti antidepressant because I was still the sad girl. Also, at that same time, I had fallen off my horse and it was put on medical leave. That conversation of, like, you need to do reiki or get try antidepressants because the trauma wasn’t leaving my body. I was still sad after her going for her for over a year and a half. Sometimes twice a week, it was definitely weekly. And essentially, she wanted me to get reiki because one I was introducing, I was like, I I’m purifying my body and birth control, like, I don’t wanna put anything else on my body. And that’s just a personal decision. I support anyone that if you do what’s best for you and your medical team. So that same week because I had suffered a concussion from falling off my horse. I went to my favorite psychic town where I was taking workshops, and she had offered she’s I she’s, like, your throat and your sacral plexus shockers are blocked. You need Reiki. You don’t need any crystals for your concussion. And it’s, like, I don’t know. I’m not ready yet, but then this then the therapist that same week had recommended and they’re two separate sources, not related to each other. So I was like, wait a minute. What is this? So I went with because I was still, like, I was still very medically inclined at that point. And I went and got Reiki the next week. And then the next month, we were testing positive with our son, Oli, who’s now almost eight. He’s seven. Second grader. And I continued to get ricky through my pregnancy, and it helped me with my anxiety. I had prenatal anxiety. I had my gallbladder removed. I had totaled my car.
And Henry Gold Butter removed within a week of each other. Ollie, very much, is a miracle baby, had a really traumatic birth, because of the birth trauma and just the way that the hospital handled everything. Allie ended up with NICU. I had a nasty infection. Allie had an infection from a prolonged labor. My Reiki master sent me Reiki during that time. My postpartum was very tumultuous with just a lot of irrational thoughts, and I just got diagnosed with severe PPA and PPD, which is postpartum depression and anxiety. And through by postpartum, I really leaned into the talk therapy and the Reiki as a combination. And it took me about eighteen months to fully come out of it, but because of the consistent support, of both together. That helps me come out of the darkness is what I like to say.
It allowed me to function. I stayed home with him for four months. I had six months postpartum. I got certified in Reiki one and two, Levels one and two, which gives you the ability to give yourself Reiki and others. And I started to give Reiki to myself and my son. He suffered from chronic ear infections. I suffered I had mastitis several several times, so I would give Reiki to myself, and I would in support of my breast milk supply because it’s all heart chakra based. And I was still I I became sad again. I was sad because I had not gotten the birth that I wanted to. We knew we only had one child and I had lost mine shot. I was grieving the loss of that positive birth and everything I had worked for. And when people say, well, you just have a healthy baby. Wasn’t it worth it? I was like, no. That’s that’s bullshit.
Like, I I got this is a one time, right of passage moments for a woman. And I did not get what I had painted or I had written down in my size nine font birth plan, and my birth plan had gone sideways. So I had spent I spent a big majority of my time reliving my birth in that eighteen months and that’s what plagued me and my darkness. And I was fine taking care of baby. I was happy to climb as long as I was with him, but I’d just be these moments of things that went wrong with my birth that plagued me. And you know, ups like, just certain things that were very violent in my birth that were unexpected and just really shook me. And it took me a long time to come out of, but it was because of the ragey that I learned how to heal myself I learned about energetics truly in my postpartum of, like, things that erupted from my childhood that because I was so sleep deprived and I was so tired and I was just really at my most raw, your mind can can sometimes unlock things that you were not prepared to face again or remember or remember even that they occurred at all the first time. So in my postpartum, I felt like my childhood abuse and my trauma has just kind of exploded. And my wound healing really started was as the postpartum. I had an abortion in my twenties.
I had been raped in my twenties. My and that really plagued a lot with my birth trauma and combined was really, really messy and really dark along with a lot of, like, worth issues in my dad’s death, like, really missing him and really trying to, like, have this baby and my favorite person died. And I really wish he was here, the one person that I was so close to. How can I exist in a world where I have this beautiful baby and I don’t have him to share it with? Was a lot.
But with Ricky and being able to heal myself, it was more about moment by moment as those things came up because it didn’t all happen at once. It was riding the wave and understanding that It’s okay to feel what you feel, but it’s about releasing it and understanding, okay, what do I need to do to get back to what’s really important and putting boundaries around my grief I learned that was there there’s it’s okay for me to put a pause on things so I can still be a working mom and be present or I need to be present, but then also create space. In time where I get to feel those feelings, honor them, and release them because I was still working a manufacturing job. I was in pharmaceutical manufacturing. It was a very demanding job, breastfeeding, pumping, and taking him picking up up from day care. And that was a very real thing, breadwinner of the family. I still had to be a person, so that was the main thing is that I would Reiki would allow me to be grounded enough to function but also I could go deeper when I needed to. And that’s really the gist of it, you know, that was long.
Victoria Volk: What do you say to those people listening that say, well, I don’t have time. I don’t have time. To for energy healing work. We are in this Western society that’s going to go go go. So, I I mean, I know the answer. Like, we just have to make our self care non negotiable, but how did you how did you do that? Like, what did that look like? Like, what how did you decide
Carolina Sotomayor: on that? I have chills. It’s very easy. Either you make the time and you prioritize yourself or whatever you believe in will make you life will make it happen for you or the universe or God whatever is your belief. There was a term I once heard and say, God’s smack God will smack you if you don’t do it first.
Like, he’ll show you signs of what you need to do, or the universe will send you hints. If you don’t take care of it yourself, they’ll put you in an adult time out is what I was calling it. When I fell off my horse, that was the first time I was forced physically to sit still in my entire life. I did not know it at the time, but I was in fight or flight. And it was the first time that I had to sit still. Couldn’t be on a phone. I couldn’t drive. I had depth of perception, like, with my vision, like, my foot would miss the curb because of my concussion. I had fell in a ditch off my horse and the con and I had memory problems. So I couldn’t drive can be in the iPad, I couldn’t read, my eyes couldn’t focus on a page, I would get dizzy, and I couldn’t remember the the numbers. They would say, okay, here’s a series of numbers, say them backwards, and I couldn’t do it. So I was out of work for eight weeks. And that is when Ricky was introduced to me. And I wasn’t I lived in a one floor apartment, so it was very safe for me. But basically, I just sat there and I would welcome anyone that would come and sit with me I couldn’t do anything else, but often the time people were busy, so it’s during that eight weeks that I got to sit alone with myself and learn to really be okay with that because there’s really nothing else to do.
And that was my opinion, god saying, hey, you’ve been running and you can’t run away from your feelings anymore. Your dad died. Your horse died. And you’re married. What if you wanna have a baby, you need to fill your stuff. And that was the first time that I was open to really making a shift of when she had the conversation with me. And the Ricky was offered to me. And then I had the Ricky session and I and my husband, he had to drive me and pick me up. And I came out, I felt like I was floating. I had remembered I was like, it was the first time that I had a huge shift in my energy. I felt like this fifty pound boulder ever since my dad had died had been lifted from my chest. And that was something that changed for me. So for me, it’s my opinion, what I tell my clients is pay attention to the patterns and the signs. Either take care of it yourself or something will happen where it will cause you to. And sometimes that looks different from me. I was able to recover from my concussion and I went back to work and I went back to work and I was pregnant. Mhmm. So or some people get sick. Physical illness is a manifestation of something of a stuck emotion in your body. And we’re not we are conditioned to stuff our emotions and not release them. Our emotions last for ninety seconds, but we have to be consciously trained? Like, we have to be trained? We have to consciously be mindful of do I wanna keep this? Am I ready to release this? Or are we gonna release it? And I think that I mean, that’s something I’m constantly reminding my son up. I’m like, okay. Breath work. We’re gonna release this. Are you ready to release it? No, I’m still mad. Okay. Let’s hold on to it a little bit longer. Check-in, are you ready to release this? And like, this is me breaking that cycle with him. You don’t have to hold on to it. So that prevents disease and him. That prevents you know, infertility issues in him and them getting stuck in his home because men have wounds too. And our emotions can get stored anywhere in our body, but the most commonly concentrated a concentrated area are our wounds is that particular chakra. And infertility is just a really stuffed emotional reservoir that needs to be released is what I find. So either take care of it yourself or I think you will be made too. I do know that from all of my work, there is a pattern. When people say, oh, I just don’t have time to heal, obviously, it’s not a priority for them. Well, we have to look at a couple of things why it’s not. Either they’re putting other people before themselves or they’re too scared to do it at the moment.
Both both are that is just a valid Those are things that people do. However, I ask you is who is more important than you? And who is going to save you when you do have that life moment when you’re in hospital or you fall off your horse? Or you have that car crash or you are whatever. He was going to fix your body in that moment. They might be able to bring you soup. They might be able to take your kids to the park. They might be able to do some grocery shopping for you to help you out a little bit. But you are the most important person in your life, and I really believe that in your relationship with yourself, and it and when people don’t prioritize themselves, it’s a lack of worthiness. For me? it is the root causes? Like, you don’t feel worthy to prioritize yourself or they have to prove or earn their worthiness to put themselves for, like so if they do need to have a break or they need to have energy healing, well, I have to do this entire to do list before I actually earn that time out or that that relief. And for me is that is that’s an indicative thing of, like, you learned something in your childhood where you had to earn, rest. You had to earn healing, and that is not correct. I will battle anyone for that.
Healing is your birthright. Rest is your birthright. You are born worthy of being happy and your life is not meant to suffer. Will we suffer? Yes. But it does and how we move through that is really a choice in my opinion. So for me is, like, where where are you prior who are you prioritizing? And for me as a mom I had to learn because I burnt myself several times out is the more that I put myself first and I am pouring from a full cup, the happier my son is the better my marriage is, the happier my partner is, the calmer and more emotionally regulated my house is. Because for us, I’m the heartbeat of the house. So if I’m on if I’m dysregulated, if I’m angry, if I’m super upset, if I’m depressed, all shit’s going haywire.
So that’s that’s my when I put it in non frame, it’s, like, everyone else is gonna thrive when you thrive. When you are and when they see you actively caring for yourself and prioritizing yourself, that is teaching them that they need to do the same. Like, my little says, I need a loan time. I I’ve had enough of you. I need I need a loan time, please. And he goes in his room or he goes in his reading corner. Legit, bro, that’s good. Like, that is, like, that’s generational breaking actively. So I it’s not just, like, you’re not gonna get rewarded for burning yourself out or putting yourself last. Actually, you’re going to condition people to know that’s how you want to be treated.
Victoria Volk: And then you’ll end up in the hospital or in an accident or
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. All of these things. That’s just my lived life experience. I’m forty one, so I still think I’m twenty. But I mean, I’ve I’ve lived a little at this point and seen a lot and and human design, if you’re into that, I’m a projector.
So I am to guide. But as a healer, regardless of your human design projector or not, as a healer, and you take on that occupation or that hat in a in a lifetime, you have to live through some things so that you can be at least one or two steps ahead to provide enough wisdom or insight for the people that are going to go through the same things you did. Which means you have to live, fall down, crash, and burn, have your heart broken. You stab it a couple of times emotionally. Right.
I’m a three five.
Victoria Volk: Three five. That was my second that was my second. I’m a
Carolina Sotomayor: three five point. I teach human design in my membership to use to help manifest better for your babies. Okay. So Yeah. It’s pretty simple.
It’s just the arrow at the top. It’s the point left or point right. And then looking at your defined centers, but that’s how I think about it. It’s like it’s like the what’s asked, like, okay. So I don’t have time, but where are you putting your time?
As an entrepreneur, I over the past year, I have looked at sales, I’ve looked at revenue and things like that. And I was, like, where am I really spent? Where am I why do I, you know, have time to do the things that do make money? I had identified the things that didn’t make money. And what was I doing?
I had to perform an audit. I the things that don’t make me money are not important. The things that do make me money and create impact on my audience, those are the things I’m gonna spend eighty percent of my time on. The other things don’t matter. They don’t even I don’t even do them anymore.
So where are you spending your time? Who’s consuming it? And how much of it do you have left over as a current state? And why are these people more important than you and your well-being?
Victoria Volk: I love that because energy is currency. Right? Is oh, yes. And I
Carolina Sotomayor: like to put it as the word as attention. Who has your attention?
Victoria Volk: Do a self audit. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Self audit. Do an inventory. It’ll be a surprise.
Victoria Volk: I just wanna touch on too something that you said that, you know, how physical things manifest. And that is completely true. Like, in the work that I do is in grief recovery and what I’ve learned about grief and my own story and the story Right. People that I’ve been in my podcast and that I’ve worked with. When we look at our lives like, okay, fender benders, blowing up horse, accidents, missteps, if you’re kind of known to be the clumsy person or and physical manifestations, right, migraines or body pain that has no explanation, like, fibromyalgia, you know, things like this.
Like, this is grief. Friends. This is grief. What is it that you are holding on to? That you are unwilling to let go of?
Or that your body is screaming to you? To be energetically released. And so you touched on it growing up, but you what can we dive deeper into what you said?
Carolina Sotomayor: Up in book, go for it. I love having these deep conversations.
Victoria Volk: So growing up, you haven’t mentioned your mom
Carolina Sotomayor: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And sometimes the mother wounds. Can you attach to the mom? Can you elaborate what your childhood was like,
Carolina Sotomayor: oh, sure. It’s funny. We talk about the ones that are ruined a lot in fertility, father wound too. Mhmm. I have recently put a lot of effort into my mother wound because I spent a lot of, like, the past decade. Telling my father wouldn’t. My childhood was I was it was very tumultuous. It was very chaotic. Full of different people. My parents got separated when my dad gave my mom an ultimatum and he didn’t want a third child. I was the third child. She chose to keep me and they got divorced. Formally when I was eleven months old and she moved from Florida to Pennsylvania and she was a single mom that eventually just stopped to stopped growing at that point. Emotionally. And from what I have learned from my healing with a lot of therapy, hypnosis, and a shaman, Anne Rieke is my mom was ill equipped to be a single mom of three children, that had had a magnitude of issues individually. And she is an active functioning alcoholic with anger issues and the most unhealed person I’ve ever met but I have learned that and what I have grown to deeply appreciate and love for her is she’s the ultimate survivor. And what I have identified her life purpose was to endure and survive so that I could launch from there. And appreciating and seeing her as a person has allowed me to see her more as my mom instead of I used to call her I won’t share her name, but I used to call her by her first name. And that was because it was easier for me to just use that. It was really hard because of all of the things that had been done said and it was really difficult for me to use the word mom. So I would call her by her first name. She actually kind of coming to visit next week, but my childhood was with her and then my brother and sister both My brother graduated high school, went into the military, my sister decided to go in to live with my dad at age fourteen, and I was young, I was kindergarten, first grade when all this happened, and they dipped. And I was alone. So I was her I was an only child from early elementary age. And then I left her at age fifteen to Intellate with my dad.
And I graduated high school and did college in Florida, and then I moved to Nebraska when I was in my when I was twenty nine. So that’s pretty much my span. But when I went from a single mom household to a single dad, it was not without abuse. My dad never hit me, but I didn’t know what an emotional abuse was or mental abuse or or financial abuse. I just didn’t know any of those things.
Until probably I got married, and I started with a different therapist. And I didn’t know he was a narcissist. But he was I felt safe with him because he didn’t he didn’t hit me. So I identified abuse as physical abuse, as like he didn’t hit me. Oh, this is what safety is. At least it’s calmer. He doesn’t yell. But it it was it was very controlling. He was very he would wait in my parking lot. I’d soccer practice.
He would wait during prom. He drove me there waiting in the hotel parking lot, picked me up. It was very there was no independence. Wanted to pick my college classes for a semester, I mean, just very controlling Latino dad but, like, beyond normal. So I went from being abused and trying to avoid conflict and being trying to be perfect straight a student to you have to be perfect straight a student.
This is what you have to live up to. This is what your sister did. You’re the only child here in the house again, and he hadn’t been a parent for a long time because my sister had been out of the house. My sister and my brother are, like, ten and twelve years older than me. And and that is really significant for me because I it was it was again feeling unwanted, hearing the story of, like, you’ve never been wanted by him.
I chose to keep you, but then you’re not, like, very loving or wanted, and then going to, well, you’re only here because there is nowhere else to put you. And you and your mom, obviously, you’re not getting along. That was an understatement. So it was a lot to work through and feel very much a man abandoned and neglected emotionally. Even physically, we run food stamps. My mom, we were the when I live with my mom, we were the family that went to the pantry, and I remember getting, like, this large thing of baloney. And cheese. And I learned to slice the baloney at a really young age to make baloney sandwiches. I learned how to make my own, like I knew how to use the stove and She was gone a lot. She we lived in a trailer on some land next to her sister and her husband. And her husband was really nice, but he made it very clear that, you know, we were visitors. Perfect. And we lived there from one to fifteen. But you I could you I could kick you guys out at any time. So there was not an there was not a strong feeling of being wanted anywhere. And that was something I really struggled when it affected my self esteem. I felt very ugly, got bullied a lot. It was not a very easy time in my life for sure. But what I do take away from all of those things was what not to do. I knew for a long time, like, during my teenage years, early twenties.
I was like, I don’t wanna be a parent. I don’t wanna get married. But then I matured. I healed. I got into the European college. I took advantage of those services. And and I just learned, like, some of the shit that happened to me was really fucked up. And it wasn’t my fault because I got blamed for everything. This is the youngest. You’re the one who broke up the family and that’s a huge reason like I just don’t get along with my siblings. They’re both toxic. They think I’m toxic and that’s okay. You know, I haven’t seen them since we settled my dad’s estate and that’s okay. I wish them well and I didn’t used to. I wish them well. I don’t know anything about their lives. They never been to my wedding. They didn’t know anything about my husband or his son. And that’s okay. Like, I have peace in neutrality about that decision. I am now I’m not emotionally charged where I’m like, I hate you. No. Go do you and I appreciate you. Balnges are set for a reason. You don’t want me.
I don’t want you. It is for valid reasons. I feel like they find me threatening because I still talk to my mom, and they are no contact with her. And they blame her for a lot. But they had very different life experiences. They grew up with them as a married couple with two parents in a home for part of their lives. I have no memory of them being married. I have no memory or life experiences other than two people who created a trial that they accidentally made and they both equally hated each other. My brother and sister grew up in a home where My mom was a state home mom a state home mom and they had barbecues with my grandpa and visits with with my dad’s parents from Ecuador and my mom cooking and birthday parties in the backyard. I mean, it was the same house I lived in with him, but very different life experiences, and I respect that. So they have a very different emotional feeling in regard for my mom, but I did learn about emotional availability because of my siblings. I learned what it’s like to not be emotionally available to people And I was like, well, that’s exactly what I mean. I don’t want to be shut off from people. I want to be united with people. So that was a key thing that I learned at a very young age was I want to be emotionally available. I want to be vulnerable. I want to be accessible so I can connect with people. I don’t want to feel cold. And that’s essentially what I took away from that. But I I think that It was not it was not an easy childhood that’s for sure.
Victoria Volk: And this is a perfect example of how growing up in the same home. You have a very different perspective and a different lens of how you look at life and Mhmm. Because all relationships are unique, even if you would have all grown up in the at the same in the same time frame, in the same home, you still would have had your own perspectives, your own experiences because your relationships would have been unique. The word that comes up for me in as I was hearing you share was was shame.
Carolina Sotomayor: A lot of shame. I’d still something I struggle with. I feel I feel like I apologize a lot or So there’s guilt and shame still, like, shame that I went through the shame that I I don’t talk to them. That’s still something I have not fully healed or even, like, that’s a new one for me. I just discovered that probably.
I saw a TikTok maybe eight months ago, less than a year ago, and it was like, shame. I was like, that’s an emotion I haven’t danced with yet.
Victoria Volk: And it’s insidious.
Carolina Sotomayor: Right. So it is that would be probably next year of healing that I would need to do, but definitely a lot of shame because there was a lot of embarrassment. There was a lot of things that shouldn’t have happened. That did happen and that we’re real and that we’re hidden. A lot of secrets
Victoria Volk: and secrets really are what keep people separate. Barry, thank you for sharing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Always welcome.
Victoria Volk: And all of that being said, with your father passing and your siblings kind of creating this unpleasant environment because you said they sued the estate. Mhmm. At the same time you’re trying to conceive a child, would you agree? And what would you say to or add to this idea that grief is often like, what blocks us from greatness in our lives.
Carolina Sotomayor: A hundred percent grief was the number one thing that blocked me from conceiving. And once I started to feel safe, after he had passed is what was the result of that one rapey session? I was able to conceive because what I associated my dad with at that point in my life, not anymore. But at that point, I had related safety with my dad because there was an abandonment wound there from him and little girls want their daddy’s for particularly for me, I wanted to be a daddy’s girl. And once we reconnected, I had to work really hard to keep his attention. And once he died, I was like, I don’t have that safety anymore. Because when I did have his attention and when we were good and we were in speaking terms, I felt safe. I felt whole. I felt like I had everything I needed. And then and I feel like death is very bizarre. Like, a person that would call me every day or would pick up every day and send me an email and the emails were dear little girl. I stopped. And it was so weird because the people I had lost prior to that, they didn’t have consistent communication. They weren’t active in my life the way my father was up till his death. And having to write the check for his cremation, it was all very surreal. Like, it’s just so weird that they go from existing and talking to, like, they weren’t here at all, except some things. So
Victoria Volk: was it unexpected?
Carolina Sotomayor: He had colon cancer and he had stopped going to the doctor. He had a large mass on the side of his belly and never would go to the doctor. So what happened was I was in Nebraska. He was in Florida. He took a taxi to the hospital, checked himself into the emergency room. They admitted him. I got an accidental call. From a person, from his cell phone, and she was speaking Spanish. And I said, who is this? I was working in my cubicle. And the lady said, this is your dad’s nurse. He’s in the hospital. And then she hung up. And then my dad called back and I was like, my dad had never been with another woman since my mom. So I was like, who is this? I mean, it was a very strange occurrence. Like, my dad was always alone or he was like, he had never been with another person. So for another person to have possession or even to speak on his cell phone was very alarming. So And he goes, I’m fine. I’m like, where are you? He goes, I’m fine. I was like, where are you? And he and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I’m like, tell me everything. And it took a couple of phone calls of me harassing because he hung up on me. And I called back, and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I flew out the next morning, and he was very sick. And I had seen him two months prior, and I he did not look well. And he said, we should go to the doctor. You know, He was a very independent, strong minded person that could not be influenced by anyone.
So he slowly declined over the next three weeks from there. He got a colonoscopy in it. The colon cancer hadn’t metastatized to his liver. And all over in it, and he passed away. He went into hospice. And I was in a cart next to him the night he had passed. The ladies came in at six AM to check on him. I sat up, and then they said he’s taking his last breath. And then that was it. And it was, like, six AM on April sixth. My god to stay in it was a Catholic hospital. It was really beautiful. And I said, that’s that’s all he wanted was for me, like, he had stopped talking, but he knew. He’s like, I know this is gonna happen. He’s like, I just want us to be in a space where we can be together. He didn’t want me staying in a hotel. I’ve been seeing him with friends in our hotel, and he goes, I just want you with me. He’s so worried about money. And I was, like, just stay with me. And I was, like, okay.
But it took me a while to get him in out of the hospital into a private hospice. So we were able to do that the last two days, but the the last night, I was able to finally get a caught and I sat next to him and I sat next to his bed and it was so nice. And I just remember them coming in, and it was, like, so fast. And I just set up, and I was, like, stunned. And I just started making phone calls at that point.
This really, like, texted my brother. He’s like, you need to come. He’s gone. And then, like, texting, like, my I call her my fairy godmother, like, she used to be my old boss. And I was like, Rosa, you need to come. And my friends my best friend’s dad was incredible support. So he was like, I need to come. And they came and then I had to handle the cremation and just having people that didn’t have to be there that were just really looking out for me because as a thirty year old, I didn’t know what to do. No one tells you, like, my best friend’s dad, he taught me how to drive. And he was like, come with me. You can’t see him be bagged. Come with me. We’re gonna go we’re gonna go to another four. I was like, I just need to be with him. I need to be with him to the end. He goes, he’s already gone. You can’t unsee those things. And this is not your place. He this I’m being your dad. And I’m just like,
Victoria Volk: And I
Carolina Sotomayor: was like, okay. Because nobody you can’t unsee those things. Like, I had changed his diaper and I had fed him and I was making all of his phone calls and all of his demands and running all of his errands during the time that he was awake. And it was very messy and it was very angry. I’m so grateful that I didn’t see that because, like, I feel like during those moments, I was so blessed by these two caring people who were really looking out for me. So when there was so much against me with my siblings and I was a naive, thirty year old who was just trying to take care of her dad who had no idea what the hell she was doing. So I think a
Victoria Volk: lot of this experience taught you how you needed to be loved.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah. It is a huge reason why it’s a huge reason of why I live my life now. Like, I live intentionally slower. We live a very simple life because it allows us to have a more regulated nervous system. When I’m more when your my nervous system is more regulated, I have more capacity or emotions and to be careful and mindful of how I want to love myself and others. Because that takes effort because it’s very easy for me to default to angry, controlling, yelling. I think it takes more effort to not do those things when you are ingrained DNA coded trauma lived to resist those responses until those responses are no longer an urge or the reactiveness. It I may spend the rest of my life resisting those urges or even, like, you know, hitting, wanting to hit. You know, I that not like, because I was hit. Like, that’s you don’t know until you’re in those situations, like, when you’re treated, you take so much effort to undo. And because my husband comes from such a different background, it’s a lot of conversation. So I have learned, like, what are my triggers? And what that allows me? What do I need to stay in this embodiment of a life that I want? What are the absolute non negotiables that I must have to exist so that I can love myself. I can live in a state of being. And it’s taken a lot of, like, trial and error and a lot of discussions and a lot of commitment to I am worth this. I am worth the effort. So it’s not just like, I’m gonna choose to be happy. I’m gonna choose not gonna be angry. No. It’s also like decluttering their house and making sure their systems and that I have a ritual in place. Like, so when I am triggered, I we have safe words and safe words are, you know, for a place where my kiddo has one and that that’s, like, and immediate. Okay. Let’s go have a talk. Do you wanna leave? And it’s just, like and then it’s, like, they’re my husband and I have a say, there’s the reason why there’s two of us. I’m, like, I can’t type out. I’m tapped out. And they’re, like, we have words for that to, like so it’s just an immediate, like, attention grabber and and it’s because I love myself enough that I don’t have to suffer and I don’t have to endure. And that I can my life can be full of love and I can’t give my son that different life.
Victoria Volk: What I hear you saying is that communication
Carolina Sotomayor: is huge. We overcommunicate We I think over communication in our marriage has been very good. Very It’s been really helpful. I think I’ve undiagnosed ADHD. So he reminds me of a lot of things we put things in a family calendar. I think that active listening and over communication has been really healing too because it’s being because I feel like that means you can be feel seen, heard, appreciated, valued. When I feel hurt, I feel safe. It creates a lot of peace knowing what to expect when he’s gonna go into the office or when I need to boot pick up or when he has flag football or soccer or when I’m gonna be doing a Ricky call. I have find a lot of safety in my marriage, and it’s been really I think when I think if I have helped lived over many lifetimes, it’s probably one of the greatest things that’s ever happened to me.
Victoria Volk: I’m happy for you.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you. He is he’s made me feel safe at the very beginning of her marriage. I think the first thing was I felt safe to be myself fully with him and that’s been the launching pad from there.
Victoria Volk: And that’s a great mention too. And I think, you know, aside from all of the things you just said about over communication and boundaries and safe words and systems, it’s a self awareness of of who you are Mhmm. And what you need. Yes. But more so who you are at the core of who you are? Like, who so many of us, I think, we walk through our life, like, who am I? And we can search our entire lifetimes, go to our deathbeds, not really be asking that.
Carolina Sotomayor: I feel like my dad did that. He didn’t know. I I it’s what I feel. Anything that’s I think I relate that to emotional availability and vulnerability is, like, their any resistance to that is a lack of is also a resistance to know or have awareness. Because if you can’t feel what are you telling clients, if you can’t know what you’re feeling, You can’t tell me what you need for your next step. I don’t care what you want. I need to know what you need first before we get to the want. Can’t run before we we can’t crawl or walk. Like, if you can’t tell me I because it’s different energy versus, like, I think I need this versus I feel I need because then those are two different parts of your body and two different depths. Versus, like, first layers, I think I need a hug or I feel I need you to to hug me and hold me.
It’s two different things. And then the receipt of that is gonna be different. If you were to receive what you asked for. The impact will be different. In my opinion,
Victoria Volk: I was listening to a podcast the other day, and It was it was about, like, manifestation and energy and and money and things like that. But you can apply, again, energy is a currency. Right? And everything is energy. Everything is energy. And it’s like this what comes to my mind now as we’re talking and having this conversation is, what do you have the capacity? What do you have the energetic? What can you energetically hold in your tank? Because we can have this you know, if we’re at an energetic place in our lives where we it’s like one thing after another, like this snowball effect of this this relationship going bad or credit card debt. It’s like so many things happen simultaneously in all areas or various areas of our lives and we don’t connect the dots that we are the common denominator. And it’s like, if you only have again, it comes back to the energy. If your energy is currency and you you’re putting it in all these unhealthy or unsupported whip things, that’s what you have energetic currency for. You’re not gonna have room to let anything else in if it’s all going out. And I think that relates to healing too. It’s like if if you’re looking at your life energetically.
Like, it’s just I’m just gonna suffer. It’s just I have a life. I’m just meant for a life of suffering because I believe that at one time in my life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Which is this the way life is? That’s what I’m saying. You’re gonna see the way they’re
Victoria Volk: suffering. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: And they she really believes that.
Victoria Volk: You That’s that that is the energy you walk the world with that you’re walking life with, and you’re bringing that to everything.
Carolina Sotomayor: And she goes, you’re so lucky. She said, no, I have made choices. And she goes, I don’t get that. I said, she goes, you’re so lucky to have a man like Ryan, or my husband’s hiding in him consciously. So lucky to have a husband like yours. Your dad x y z and like stop. He’s dead. You’ve been divorced my entire life. When is the dead horse gonna be beaten enough? Like like I need a choice to marry a healthy man based on our healthy relationship. He’s a whole person. He’s not he’s not an abuser. I made that choice. Yes, am I blessed to to have this, but I made that choice consciously. You know? I don’t know. I I don’t I get That’s for it. Yeah. I did the work. Like, I was the happiest at that point in my life I had ever been when I met him. And he also said that he knew that when by dating me and marrying me his life would ever be boring.
Victoria Volk: That’s what I say about my husband.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I tell everyone if the a member, his mom asked me he could she goes, why do you want to marry? Him. And I said, is that you know that no one’s ever gonna love me any better than him. He is everything. And I there’s not enough time I never there’s I never have enough time with him. I soak up I still love going on dates with him. Like, they’d say it’s the best. Like, I same Steven says that she goes, I love how good or friends you are. You generally enjoy your husband’s company, never called my husband a man child, or he’s my first child, and I would have never married him. But I never get enough time with him.
And I had dated and engaged before. I’ve never married before, but that’s how I knew. Like, this one’s the one for me. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You had said, on your website, you have a a part that says, your dad’s death in reference to your dad’s death, that it changed me, and it woke me up. In what way, do you feel like it changed you? And were you asleep in your life? Like, the the Carolina before and the Carolina after his death, how would you sum those two people up? Because death does change us.
Carolina Sotomayor: I I’ve thought about this before, and deep deep reflection are a couple of things. My dad’s dad’s death was a hundred percent the start of my spiritual awakening. I had been a faith girl. I had been a Christian girl. I had been a churchgoer. But because of his death, I was spiritually curious. I had believed in I have seen ghost. I have expelled I I even felt ghost in an energy in his house where, like, this stereo, if I fell asleep on the couch, it would turn on in blast static sound. It was awful. So his house was definitely haunted. My mom’s trailer had was haunted. So I had already had the basis of feeling like there was more after you die. I definitely believed in the afterlife in the spiritual realm. I’d never I’m into a cup in in Miami, you can go to Santa Yeah. It’s very real. So which is like, are are very prevalent. You can find them. I have been to a witch before. Usually, if you’re in a Cuban neighborhood, so you if you need They call it a bad news. Like, if you need a bath or, like, a spell, everyone’s at least gone once. So when you’re, like, early twenties or in your teenagers, you do stuff. So I had been to and I was, like, oh, shit’s real. So I had a little bit of a curiosity with that. So when he died, I was very curious to know what happened to them. And I was like, he can’t just not exist anymore. My love for him so strong. His love for me just does not exist. I don’t believe that. Because I’ve had dreams, like, of my Ebola who had died. And I was like, this can’t be the end. Like, my dad believed ashes to ashes, dirt to dirt. Like, he really believed nothing. And I was like, I was like, okay. Like, he didn’t really care where his ashes ended up. Like, his ashes are at my feet. They’re under they’re in his arm. Like, I keep it under my desk. I I move it around. Anyway, I started taking classes with the psychic, the local psychic, she offered like spirit guides, aliens, she would teach about Guardian angels, how to talk to people who have passed, Oracle cards. And I was starting to take these classes. And then I got a reading from her right before her wedding. I got my dad died in April. We got engaged in September. We got married in December. Of that year. So from the time that he proposed to the time we got married, it was very fast. It was ninety days. Just because we we wanted to be married. And right before our wedding, I got the reading. It was Thanksgiving time frame. And she she just said there would be certain things that would happen on our wedding day because my biggest my biggest sadness going into the wedding or my biggest grief was that he wasn’t gonna walk me down the aisle. And the wedding wedding was beautiful and there were certain things that happened that day that we that she said his presence would be known and there’s still things that happen that we don’t know. Like, there was a medallion placed that several people commented on on this table on the beach where we had poured the sand and the fishy and stood in the passers stood in front of. I didn’t see it. It’s not in any of the photos. But several guests had plummeted on it. My cousin goes, did you see that medallion that was on there? Did you where did that come from? And was like, are you talking? I never saw it.
It’s not in any of the pictures. For several people, Anodeon are like, what was that medallion? What was that was that a coin? I was like, I have no idea, but that was on the table in front of everyone. And there was only, like, twenty five thirty people at the the ceremony. So that was one thing. The sky was perfectly blue. And with white clouds and we got married in front of the lighthouse, he used to take us all too. He took them when he was married and then he took me. So this is a special place for us and we got married there in a way to honor him.
But my spiritual weight keying was just so that I could talk to him. So all this exploration, all these workshops, all of these psychic readings, was for me continued to hear from him. Didn’t I a hard time coping not talking to him? So I thought if I became a spiritual medium and I believed when someone said, like, everyone’s a psychic, you just turn it off. I was like, well, okay, let me start taking this seriously and it was I started to have experiences with him. Like, I would feel I I would have certain moments that this is before the horse fall, and this is before I had two horses. This is before the first horse died. I would go to the barn and I would cry on her. And it was during usually these drives on these gravel roads that I would have these experiences. I remember my right leg my right thigh got very cold, and I was sobbing. I know I’d play different songs to make me think of him. And I was just like, I just miss you. I just I don’t understand why this is my life now without you. And I would just go to the barn and I would cry. I would just stand and cry in my horse. She was everything to me and it was through that connection that idea experiences, little things like that. And then I started to smell him climbing up my apartment stairs. And I took a workshop on clear abilities and which is like clear cognizant. Clear sentence, clear audience, like, you can hear things, vision, you can see things, symbols. I started learning about angel numbers, and it started playing weird things like my girl was our song. And it would be I’d be walking through the office, and then I would just hear my girl playing. And it would just be, like, just little things that he would send me and was, like, okay, there’s something to this. So then I started getting repeated. I would hear that often and in rain in place because my girls are very specific. Mhmm. Song would hear it at Walmart on the speaker or it’d be somebody’s ring tone or it would play on my on my radio in the car. My new this is twenty twelve. So this is this is twenty fourteen. So it’s a very different time than, like, I I still listen to the radio and stuff versus, like, Spotify now. But then I I started to I got Reiki Attuned. And with every Reiki Attunement, my mediumship, my ability to channel got deeper and stronger. And when I started to use Oracle cards, I could start to channel with him. I started intuitively journaling, and he would show up in every medium I would try. So it wasn’t just straight senses of clear abilities and symbols. It was also using, like, my dad had a very specific b o. So, like, it was old spice and old man smell. Mhmm. So, like, when I smelled that, I was climbing up the apartment stairs that I had just moved into, and it was just, like, And I was like in the light flickered. I was like, okay. So now I have learned to believe occurrences. So and I can feel him when he’s around and when he’s not around. He’s not always around. So that my dad’s death led me to stretch me to believe that I was possible to I did a desire to wanna communicate with them, which meant I need to become a medium, which then let me to channel spirit babies I am doing now. I believe that because of his my desire to continue to talk to him, is what led me into my ability to channel. Because then when I started to channel professionally in paid sessions, I could talk to other loved ones. I could and then it and then I was in Ricky Sessions. I was working with moms who’ve lost babies. And they were grieving the losses of stillborn or medically terminated or a topic or a chemical pregnancy or a failed fertility treatment or an embryo transfer that didn’t work out. Connecting to those babies was the end result. Mhmm. What what Carolina was before my dad’s death? She was a she was a she was a lot more carefree. She was a lot she was a lot lighter, meaning, like, or a a blue yes. A lot more care free. I was a less healed, less considerate. I was very caring, but I was not as careful as I am. I’m very not self aware as I am now, obviously. But I also didn’t have a relationship with healing other than talk therapy And I was very much stuck in a dysregulated nervous system seeking everyone else’s approval to get validated. And had no self love and no self confidence. Everything was if I work hard, I’ll work harder, and then that’s how I got stuff. There was no there was not much self relationship other than work hard. Do what people tell you. Honestly, we’ll get you far, Ray. And try to have some fun sprinkled in. So I I I think I’m probably cutting myself short a little bit, but now it’s it’s a lot more I feel like just it’s just lightened day. I’m I can generally say I’m happy most of the time. And I love who I am. I love the life I’m living versus before I took a job because it was my first big girl job after graduating. I graduated twenty nine and got jobs early after, moved from Florida to Nebraska, didn’t know anyone. And it was because I wanted to start over, but I think she was strong.
But just didn’t have a lot of self awareness or a lot of love for herself.
Victoria Volk: I think what sums up what you just shared is if you wanna heal, Get to know yourself.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s true. Yourself.
Victoria Volk: Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: I’m sorry. That was pretty long winded.
Victoria Volk: No. It’s beautiful. That’s what I hear in what all that you shared. And even just my personal experience, it’s like, if we give ourselves the time and attention, like, really, it’s our inner child. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s yes. As an inner child, when I moved to Omaha, I didn’t know anyone. So I was like, I I was so lonely, and they didn’t wanna I’m not much of a drinker and all my coworkers, they drink because that’s what you do in the Midwest. Mhmm. And that’s where you meet people. Like, where do you get a boyfriend? Go to a bar. I can’t hold my liquor. I’m such a lightweight. So I started making a bucket list and playing visitor in my city, and Omaha is a great city.
I love it so much. And I was like, I had ahead disposable income for the first time. And I was like, what am I gonna do with a little money? So I went on Craigslist. And I said, what is the thing that I always wanted to do? I was like, this is my guest season because I was so lonely. Like, I didn’t know what to do because I was like, I wanna have some fun. So I found a trainer that was doing twenty five dollar horse lessons. And I would go because I wanted I always wanted a horse Like, I dreamt of horses. I would look up before I left Miami would look up how much horses cost?
How much could they how much does it cost to board? And I was like, that’s a nonsense. I can’t afford that. So then I I was like, and four twenty five dollar horse lessons. Well, three months in, I bought the horse less I bought the lesson horse.
And and she was the greatest thing that I had ever loved and the joke was the I love the horse more than my husband when we got married. It’s my husband’s still jokes because if she was still around, she would still outrank me. She was my hard horse. I knew it was Cheyenne. And that horse cared me for years, like, from, gosh, twenty twelve to twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen.
I loved her so much. She was amazing. And my inner child wanted a pony, wanted a horse so much. And I bought her. And she was in my engagement photos, like, and so lying about it. Like, the vet became a good friend to my husband and I, and he goes, I’m sorry to tell you this. It was kinda hurtful. He goes, I think you killed your horse. And I was like, I didn’t I don’t know what you’re talking about. He goes, you cried so much on her. Her she ended up having asthma and she couldn’t eat and breathe. At this like, she couldn’t eat and breathe at the same time in no matter for several months of steroids and treatment, her quality of life wasn’t very good anymore, and we just couldn’t and her cough was so bad. We the vets said the most humane thing was to put her down. So that was the hardest thing ever, but she so grieving her that the first two years of her marriage were shitty. And we I was I don’t remember a lot other than those moments. Like, my dad died. We got engaged. We got married. We settled the state. My horse died.
That was the order in which things happen. And we were trying to help, baby. And, you know, things, you know, you
Victoria Volk: didn’t have the energetic capacity for a baby.
Carolina Sotomayor: No, I didn’t. No. But with my horse dying, I think that was even harder. I think the I have it when I think about the grief, the grief from the court case of this this date settlement was harder than actually losing my dad, fighting with them. But the grief of losing my horse oh, god. Because she carried me, and it was it was my it was like a child to me. And having a relationship with a horse and riding them and training them and caring for them, especially if they’re sick and it’s your first horse. An animal that large, it’s and I have dogs now and I’ve had cats. It’s very different than relationship with dogs because it’s it’s very dangerous sport. It’s a lot of trust building, a lot of there’s a lot of energy that goes into a horse person relationship.
So, greeting her was really hard.
Victoria Volk: They say that emotionally, horses are the most similar to humans, emotionally.
Carolina Sotomayor: I quit horses. I I still had the second horse, but he was a butthole, and he was too much horse for me. And whereas the first horse, she made me overly confident, but she really was such a good horse he made up for my incompetence. And so the second one, we had a love hate relationship. But he ended up hurting his leg and he had to be put down too in twenty seventeen.
Yeah. So he had him for a while, but he was so old. I couldn’t he just became a lawn ornament. So I gave him treats. He was he was so ornury. I loved him, but I hated him. He was it wasn’t the same. And I was kinda resentful after she died. I was like, I’m stuck with you. So isn’t it like
Victoria Volk: seeing how you described your dad? You didn’t say the word ornery, but you said stubborn.
Carolina Sotomayor: Does that No. It’s transcribing my horse.
Victoria Volk: Right? But that’s how you described your dad. Like, not ordinary, but you meant describe
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, my dad was ordinary.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my
Carolina Sotomayor: dad was stubborn. Yeah. But this horse was, like, he was, like, the one of my bad boyfriends. Like, he was so good looking. Like, he was so gorgeous that as soon as you’re about to get over him, he’ll do something really nice. But then, like, a little bit later, he’ll turn around and do something really shitty. So, like, he would do things like bite me or, like, I’m grooming him or I’m I’m cinching up the the saddle to ride. He’d come around and try to bite me and or he would nip me. Like, he just loved to bite me. And I was like, why you?
Or, like, he’d push me and I’d fall down. He was sixteen hands high. He was huge.
Victoria Volk: Maybe he was never taught how to be gentle. You know what I mean?
Carolina Sotomayor: He picked on me. He was perfect for other people.
Victoria Volk: The bully. Oh.
Carolina Sotomayor: Other people would write them that were more like, I was a novice and that were, like, good writers and are born. They’re, like, oh my god, he’s such a good boy, or he would fake trip to, like, scare me while we were trail riding. And then he would just, like, look at me. Like, he hated my husband, so he stepped on my husband’s foot, and he looked at me while he was doing it and pricing his foot down. I yeah. No. Like, his name was Bucks Mosipi, and you. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Well, you know, we meet assholes in our in our human relationships. I guess we meet them in the animal world too. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Yes. It was like but he loves treats.
Victoria Volk: My youngest, we just watched a video just the other day of her. She must have been maybe three. I say around three years old, three or four. And my I had asked her on the video. I said, what do you wanna view when you grow up?
And she said, a vet. Wait. I wanna be a cow girl. And she has wanted a horse and dreamt of horses and horse, horse, horse, horse, horse, since she was eighty bitty. And so I imagine one day she’ll be just like you and have her own horse, and she’s actually planning to go to vet school. So she’s a sophomore in high school and she wants to be a vet, and she’s still pursued. She’s going to pursue that. So
Carolina Sotomayor: good for her. I think,
Victoria Volk: doubt she’ll have a horse.
Carolina Sotomayor: I would if I if I could have the first horse again, I would do horses again. Yeah. But because because of gotten the garter questions, like, you’re gonna get another horse? No. Nebraska winners could be brutal.
And we boarded they have a shelter, but they’re best if they’re in a herd. So not like stalled. So our horses would have a barn that they could fully go into as a herd, and then they would also have free access to go out. Like, but having I had older horses, they required extra care and not just, like, shots and floating their teeth and all that. Like, they need to be blindkicked. That’s very controversial. But, like, to keep weight on, to keep all those things. And in Nebraska, you can have three or four seasons on a day. And, like, depending on our winners, you can we’ve had winners where it would snow, but then it would get really warm. And if they sweat underneath their blanket, it’s bad. Like, and it could ruin their code and all of these things. So, like, to go out there, put the blanket on, take it off again, and it and it’d be in cold and, like, also be are you close enough to the barn? I just don’t wanna do that anymore. But if we had the first horse, guarantee you would be still a poor girl. But if it was for the second, the second one ruined me. And then this finally had one kid. Like, I was like, this this pregnancy, this birth, this is for is is was really rough. I don’t wanna do this again. And we we pretick, we had talked about only having one kid, but I was like, if it’s anything like the horses, I don’t wanna gamble this, bro. I don’t I we’re good. We’re good. We have three dogs. We’re good. I have three dogs.
Victoria Volk: Brings up a question for me. I’m glad you mentioned that because you essentially grew up as an only child.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: So, what does that bring up for you as your son being an only child?
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, god. He would give anything to have a sibling. He asked he asked if we could adopt, if we could foster, we talked about those. We were very open, and I was like, listen. The fact I literally I literally said it was, like, my ability to have a baby, this factory is closed. Was very difficult to achieve you. And he goes, why can’t you just go save a baby? I was like, it doesn’t work that way. I was like, we had to to talk about, like, you know, that it costs a lot of money to adopt, to foster. And I was like, we really like the way our family is now.
And then I was like, so, like, really trying to understand his need for a sibling. Essentially, he wants to belong. He wants someone that’s like him. He wants So what we have done to mitigate that is we’ve made extra efforts to my husband has a brother and we do I will move mountains to even it’s first for a day, we live in different states. So, aren’t my in laws live in Kansas now that used to live here?
So, they live in Wichita and my brother-in-law lives in Fort Worth. So, if there I will move efforts so that he can have cousin time, visits to to to get that sibling time that’s as close as possible. But my husband, he was very adamant coming into our marriage, so he only wanted child. And I was like, I think I would want one or two. Let’s see how it goes with one. And then as we had went through everything, he very much wanted to only have one child. And he’s like, you’ve had a really bad child experience like sibling experiences. He has his own he had a very good childhood, but he has his own feelings about certain topics. So for his purpose, like, we discussed, and he’s, like, we both decided collectively just one child, but I am in strong opinion. Our son will probably have, like, seven or eight children.
He loves babies. He he’s already told me he wants to be a dad and he goes, when I I have a family, he’s already thinking about it. I think it’s because we talk about babies all the time and people having babies because of what I do. We got another Ricky baby. They’re and and I had to describe, like, IVF is they have to have surgery sometimes to have the baby. Babies are made different ways. And he’s like, well, when I’m seventeen, I’m gonna have a family. I’m gonna be a dad. I was like, let’s wait a little bit longer. He told me that two days ago, because when I said it to you, he wants to be a dad. Do you have college to be a dad? No. No.
Victoria Volk: You go through college as you’re being a dad. I swear to say good. That’s about diversity you never get out of.
Carolina Sotomayor: But I think I I am actively working on being more I think I have a good I think as an adult, sometimes it can be really hard to be a kid again, but I think as a parent of an intentionally only child, you have to be their plainly at times. And I watched a creator in TikTok say that he was an only child in the consequences and how lonely it was. So I only became aware of this because he is now older. I mean, he’s still very young, but I am actively trying my like, over the past month, I realized, like, he he told me he at the end of summer, he was on pretty lonely, jam packing, late dates, grading community, community was really important to us, but, like, having regular play dates with the same people, so there’s more of a kinship there. I think it’s gonna be the best I can do.
We have three dogs. I hope that I hope that helps him.
Victoria Volk: And to help him, you know, we need a community, right, as adults. Like, we
Carolina Sotomayor: Right.
Victoria Volk: Driving community, and kids are no different. So it’s helping him find his people.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I I noticed that we tried Yeah. We tried soccer for the first time in the spring as an invitation from a preschool friend and to continue that relationship. And I was like, oh my gosh. Look how much more productive we are in a Saturday. Look, we made I made a friend who doesn’t even speak English, should we share the same name? She’s from Ukraine. And I learned to use Google translate, and our world exploded in the best ways with, like, new connection. So I think understanding the need for him to feel like he belongs somewhere is what I think it is and that he is he has a connection with someone. So me actively working on that part. Mhmm. I think will kind of
Victoria Volk: enrich his life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. In a so we may not be able to do this, but I am like, he may not understand the emotional you need is. You wanna feel connected. You wanna feel like you belong. You wanna feel like you have something with someone.
And I’m creating that in different spots. So it’s not all in one pot too. That’s very strategic. So if, like, something goes south with school friends, he still has sport friends and he still has plate eight friends that are all not in the same bucket.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. My youngest too, she just had someone some a family moved here and now they’re they’re all about the horses together and, you know, they share the same interest and she’s phoned. You know, she was struggling, I think, for a while there to try and find somebody that had the same similar interest, you know, as her and
Carolina Sotomayor: They can do wonders. He’s relating to Pokemon. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Even coming out of their shell more so.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. We have he made a friend in his class, and he’s also into Pokemon. And he has a special he needs special attention throughout the day. And Ollie has sought him out, and he goes, I like being his friend because he needs me. And he also likes Pokemon. And as So we’ve done play dates with this kid, and he is so so sweet. And I’ve seen Ollie just light up, oh, my turn on scene dates, but I’ve seen my son light up so much because of the shared interest and the depth of, like, Do you have this card? Do you have do you have the evolve form so much? I know so much about Pokemon. But, you know, and it’s just I they just light up different than another like, is it something that they really care about?
Victoria Volk: Well, I’m gonna tell you something. My son would probably hate me for mentioning this on a podcast, but he’s into Pokemon. Helly. He’s nineteen.
Carolina Sotomayor: You be surprised. I looked up there’s a lot of grown adults who do it post a month ago. And we’re learning to battle. I’m not really sure. I’m I’m trying to get people to answer my questions on, like, how to build a deck so he can go to one of the tournaments. And their their website doesn’t work. Oh, goodness. I’m in a Facebook group with grown men. Really?
Victoria Volk: But I mean, it’s like and he’s been collecting these since he was a kid. So he’s nineteen. So
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s like,
Victoria Volk: well, like, plus years, ten years. For sure, ten plus years, he’s got a lot of cards. And he’ll show me the ones he’s really proud of and what they’re he’s been looking up, how much they’re worth, and so he’s you know, he’s got quite the collection.
Carolina Sotomayor: He goes to trading events as far as we’ve gotten, but we have three binders, and I’ve organized them by Yuval formed with him. And down the street, he had a there was a little bully down the street. And he kept saying how much he has, like, these v stars. And I’m like, what’s a v star Ollie? What is that? He goes, oh, so and so says that he have ten and I only have two. And I was like and he said it’s a mean things to me. I was like, Let’s go on eBay. And I’m a spiteful human. And I I bought I was like, is this one good?
I was like, we can’t spend, like, twenty dollars on a card, but we can spend a couple dollars on a card. And I ordered I ordered like I’m not kidding you. Fourteen or fifteen. I ordered so many VStar’s so that the next time they battled, he had just two pages full of v stars. And I was like, you go to show that little kid.
How many v stars you have? But it was not my finest parenting moment, but I was like, you you wanted like, in my instance, like, you’re taking this a little too far. I was like, no. It keeps going down. All you came home crying and I was like, no.
Victoria Volk: Not having this.
Carolina Sotomayor: Not having this. We will we will be victorious every day because they came for anyway, drive, like, in these little white envelopes. So excited to go get the mail. Yes.
Victoria Volk: My son loves it too, getting the mystery packs. Oh. It’s like Christmas. You know, you never know.
Carolina Sotomayor: Have you watched a livestream of those?
Victoria Volk: I’m sure he has. He’s like the
Carolina Sotomayor: only guy we have. We’ve gone in TikTok and we’ve watched these people unbox stuff. Wild.
Victoria Volk: It’s yeah. There’s you know, just like Ricky, you know, it’s like kind of feel like unicorn sometimes when you’re into the energy work and especially probably in the Midwest. You know, that’s I’m glad, you know, we kinda talked about that. But being in the Midwest, it’s not something we’re not as, like, progressive. Right? So do you did you ever feel like you know, like, it’s, like, grown man adults who love Pokemon. They’re probably kind of in the closet a little bit. It’s, like, didn’t you ever feel like that? Like, when you first, like, really got a little awkward. You were
Carolina Sotomayor: especially when I was still working corporate. I quit corporate about three years ago, three and a half years ago. So I did I’ve done I’ve been doing Ricky for seven years, and it was something I was really proud of, but also, like, really skurdish because I had also lost a lot of people who told me I was doing the devil’s work. Mhmm. So I was really kind of, like, in the closet about it because of how people reacted. But now there’s, like, a huge move movement. There’s a lot of spiritual practitioners in Omaha that are very open, and now it’s, like, fun to manifest. But it wasn’t like that in twenty seventeen. Like, if you use the pendulum, we were gonna hell. And I I my best friend, actually, last August, we went to visit her last July. So last August, she said, I’m really scared for your soul. You’re going straight to hell. I’m like, dude, this is not new. Like, you know, I’ve been doing this forever. But I was like, okay.
And she’s like, well, you’re not gonna you’re gonna stop it? Or do you wanna be my best friend? So it’s like, bro, even I don’t know I’m used since I was twenty. If you’re not into this, that’s okay. I’ll love you from afar, but we don’t, you know, I’m not I don’t believe in hell. I just believe in the other side. But if you think that’s what’s happening to me, then you don’t have to be a part of this show. You don’t have to be part of this party. And we parted. So for me, now I it took me a long time to really be, like, yeah, I’m a psychic medium. But it took, I think, time. It took years for me to be, like, get over those losses and, like, for me to stand strong. I’m like like, this is my life purpose. And I think I just needed proven evidence over time and time and time again, you know, when and to make like, to have, I think, the more legitimate I’ve I’ve really proven myself as into, like, my branding, my marketing, like, just it made me feel more legitimate. Mhmm. And when I switched from in person to online right before COVID happened, I quit seeing people in person. I I got more confident. I was like, Omaha is too small for me. I think that’s also why I went online. Was this like, there’s only so many people who are open to this and I feel like if I go online, I’ll find more people I’m meant for the world. That’s what I told myself. And essentially, that’s essentially what’s happened. I started the podcast and I’ve met so many people. And I we have eighteen thousand followers on TikTok, and we’re globally ranked every day with our podcast that make me be behind a podcast. So I don’t hide anymore. Like, either you like me, and I’m not gonna convince you, either I’m like, here here’s a FAQ question. If you wanna go look what it is, great. But I don’t convince anyone that they should do this. If you’re curious, I’ll talk to you. But that’s not my mission to convince you to do this.
And if you’re curious, I’ll I’ll have a conversation with you, but I’m not gonna convince you to do anything. That’s not my problem. It’s not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys. It’s certainly not gonna own that problem.
Victoria Volk: And if you are curious, it’s probably the universe, like, knocking you on the head. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I looked curious.
Victoria Volk: Called me too. Like, I kept hearing rapey, rapey, rapey, you know. What’s this rapey? I bought in the night. Went through rapey one and two and then I got my rapey master and then I went through corona, holy fireakey, and so that’s What do you
Carolina Sotomayor: think of holy fire corona? I love that that one changed my life, the corona. Mhmm. I like that one. And I did I did I want him to I was I was like a needle jut. I mean, the professional certification. So I took it with a licensed Yeah. I see our t teacher. I need that certificate. That level of certificate.
I couldn’t be, like, regular person.
Victoria Volk: Oh, I didn’t go through the licensing, but I was trained, like, my racking master teacher was one of thirty licensed rate emails. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: No. That’s who you went like, so you can get, like, this special certificate. That’s what I really, really wanted. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was my Reiki I think it was my Reiki too. I had a really profound experience and that kind of, like, solidified the deal for me for my healing personal healing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Then I went into biofuel tuning. So now I use tuning force.
Carolina Sotomayor: Really? Oh, I’ve never played with tuning forks.
Victoria Volk: My friend, that is for me, personally, in my opinion, it’s more bang for your buck.
Carolina Sotomayor: It Oh. Tell me more.
Victoria Volk: It is it it is really deep. It’s it really matches the energy work that I want to be doing with people to help people really move through stuff because it’s it yeah. Biofil tuning.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, we’re gonna have to check after this. Yes. I
Victoria Volk: would love to. But, yeah, it’s that has been
Carolina Sotomayor: you should come in my podcast.
Victoria Volk: I would love to. I would love to. Jazzy. Good. So, yeah, it’s enabled me to do the work that I do with Grievers and, you know, I know what’s not mine?
You know? And I didn’t know that in the beginning, especially, and I’m maybe
Carolina Sotomayor: really hard to decipher.
Victoria Volk: It is. It’s like, oh,
Carolina Sotomayor: what am I feeling as this comes up? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute. I’m not I got a clear my stuff
Carolina Sotomayor: a hundred percent.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. Yeah. It’s energy work has enabled me to do the work that I do with with grief and talking to Grievers and, you know, because people
Carolina Sotomayor: move it out
Victoria Volk: of pressing. That’s so depressing.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I’m
Victoria Volk: like, grief is my jam. Like, it I could talk about it all the live long day. I never lived part of it.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I hear stories of loss. I worked with a person yesterday who did a termination at twenty five weeks, which is really difficult to go for a person to go through. My husband’s like, are you okay? I’m like, yeah.
Just gonna make my decaf. And I was like, it it just becomes I was like, I can hold space for a lot because I’ve gone through a lot, but I also can appreciate her pain. Mhmm. I can see, like, I can hold space for it because but it’s not my story. I’ve done, like, enough it’s I’ve had enough practice to hold it apart from me and also no big grounded going into it and then cleanse after. Understand what I’m feeling is enough practice of know who’s talking to me when I’m in the session. Mhmm. I have a question. Have you I have you ever gotten a tune to another lineage of Ricky or only Holy Fire?
Victoria Volk: Only Holy Fire.
Carolina Sotomayor: I got a tune to Crystal Ricky, and then I got certified in Ricky for childbirth.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Carolina Sotomayor: And then I when I what I’ve settled on, it was kundalini Ricky. I found this woman and corporate
Victoria Volk: I’m sorry, what? Does she she incorporates breath work?
Carolina Sotomayor: No. It’s just basically there’s a few different symbols with the kundalini Reiki. It’s more potent and it’s easier from, like, with my practice with I have traditional use to eat, reiki chris o Reiki, the Holy Fire, one two Ricky Master in Corona, and then I got and I did childbirth in there, and then I did Kundalini last. I did this two years ago. She does she doesn’t teach, like, chakras, doesn’t teach anything about cord cutting. She gives you the ultimate and gives you a packet. And it’s was fifty bucks for every achievement, for the three achievements. And she does everything virtually over Zoom. And I found her in TikTok. And I had seen a video about Kundalini, and I became very interested in mother earth, like obsessed with her. And then the Kundalini awakening And I started to dive into I had a student and also a dear friend who I was training in Holy Fire Ricky Master. Mhmm. And And I and and then showing Charlie went on to Corona. And I was like, she’s she was studying Sandskrit, and she was discussing, like, the true meanings of some of the words. And I was like and she’s like, I don’t feel very settled by this. And when we’re having this discussion, I was like, well, I’ve been playing with Cunalini. Do you want didn’t come over to my side? Do you want this? And we played with that together. And I just find it more organic. It’s less like, I can get more done in a short amount of time. Like, I can do, like, a ten minute session and it feels like as if I done with corona for thirty. Mhmm. So it feels also just if Corona felt feminine and I still love corona, but if this feels like the most feminine for me, and it’s just very, very simple. It doesn’t have all the symbols, but it does have some symbols. But and it has different, like, DNA diving. It has this all these other things on the Reiki master, but that’s what I mainly practice now. And it’s I don’t know. It feels sparkly. It feels it’s it’s just flows easier for me. It feels lighter when I’m done with the session too. Like, when I have when I have to, like, tense myself after a session and I feel lighter. It’s not, like, it’s easier for me to move through sessions if I have to do a start role a day. I’m less tired at the end of the day.
Victoria Volk: Sounds interesting.
Carolina Sotomayor: You should play together. Yeah. Sounds like forks. I’ll tell you, like, clearly. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: We’ll have to yeah. We’ll have to connect after. And it’s what’s funny is that before we even started recording. We joked about this not being a two hour guest. It’s
Carolina Sotomayor: a big two hours.
Victoria Volk: And here we are an hour and fifty seven minutes
Carolina Sotomayor: set up. That’s funny.
Victoria Volk: So You are Oh, goodness. It’s one o’clock, the longest podcast. And I’ve enjoyed every minute of
Carolina Sotomayor: it too.
Victoria Volk: I think it was we went to a lot of different places, and I you know, there’s a lot of stuff on here. I haven’t asked, but I think in a lot of ways, you answered for me. I mean, you kinda went into the medium and how you kinda came. Yeah. I think you answered all the questions I had.
And that switches to Zaro.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s not in my world.
Victoria Volk: But on the end with this, what gives you hope for the future?
Carolina Sotomayor: Or by future or just future in general.
Victoria Volk: It gives you hope for, I don’t know, the collective however you wanna answer that, however you interpret that,
Carolina Sotomayor: that you can redeem yourself at any time. You can start over at any time. Last night, I I I let a circle a a boom activation inside a membership. And somebody and I said, what is the most fearless, most fertile version of you? What is she like? And somebody said that they smiled knowingly that they were having the redemptive pregnancy in birth. And I that word was so powerful for me for me, I cried and I got goosebumps. And I love that how many times I can always start over and that gives me hope that I have that and I like that I can always redeem myself because I love myself enough and I love unconditionally the people around me and I’ve learned to love unconditionally. And because of that, I can always apologize and start over. I could always forgive myself and I could always start over and do better and try again. Anything that has allowed me to have hope that if I make a mistake, I’ll do better. I won’t repeat it. And that gives me hope. And because that means I can always be better and without mistakes, I will not grow. And I have a firm belief that whatever I am, my dad taught me this because whatever you are is the baseline of what your children will be. He goes, so make sure you’re really great. And I feel like I am doing what I was meant to do in this lifetime. And I hope if that is true that my son sees that, then I can only imagine what he’s going to set intentions for to make the world a better place because he can always start over. Because he loves himself enough that he can forgive himself. If he has to forgive, he can grow and expand, he can redeem himself again. And you think starting over, it also feels very fresh and that’s exciting. So when she like, and she I don’t know if I would have answered that before yesterday. I think just being loved probably would have been being loved by my husband and my son would have been my answer before yesterday.
Victoria Volk: I can tell you what your answer was before yesterday.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, shit. Are you serious?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Because I asked it on my form.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh my god. It’s so exciting.
Victoria Volk: If I can find it. When I think what would they really want for me in the the x situation, then I sit with that and proceed. It makes it easier to be fearless and go live the life I want. I think there’s more, but your answer today was perfect. It was beautiful. And it sounds like the antidote for shame too.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. Yeah. You’d always start over. I I didn’t think a lot of people put like, if you have to start over, like, it’s a like, it you don’t have to start over all the way at a point x, you’re just starting over where you’re right now. Mhmm. So it’s it’s easier because you’re you’re at you’re evolved. You’re not starting over at the very beginning. You’re starting evolved from a further point. I think people underrate how, how good it can be just start over. You can start over just by a new day or the first of the month or the first of the year.
I mean, that’s why everyone does New Year’s resolutions. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yes.
Carolina Sotomayor: You can start over mid afternoon or at one:thirteen in the afternoon. I love the thing that’s really helpful.
Victoria Volk: Where can people reach you if they’d like to connect with you?
Carolina Sotomayor: I think Instagram is the easiest. My handle is the Carolina, like North and South, search my org, s o t o m a y o r. Or my website, caroline is it to my org dot com, or you can I think messaging and dimming me on Instagram is either you can follow me on TikTok and YouTube? We’re pretty active on YouTube too. We’re active on these things. Oh, my podcast. Yeah. Listen to the podcast. So forget about that one. Make a baby. Make a baby podcast. We are into making babies. We make babies with Reiki as our tagline. We’re two years old, and we’re close two. We’re a little over six thousand downloads. So we’re slow and steady. We’re we would love for you to take a listen. We come out weekly at minimum. Sometimes, like, this week, we’re doing in prompt two. We’re gonna post every day. Because we’re doing a healing challenge inside the membership. But, yeah, come and join us. Yeah. If you’re with listers once, I can give you the link. They can try the membership out for three days for free if they want to come and join us.
You can try it out before deciding if they wanna stay or not.
Victoria Volk: Tesla on the link. I’ll put that Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I’ll email it to you right away.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Along with your contact information and
Carolina Sotomayor: Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much. I feel like this was a really I say it’s a lot, but when this is what’s so important to me with this podcast is to be able to give people the time in the space to Go Deep, to really share the story. To develop for me to develop a connection with you so that my listeners feel a connection with you. And I think that’s so that’s so important to me. And so thank you for coming to my podcast and True Ireland. And allowing me to sit with you through your stories.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you so much for for listening and having me.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Unlock the power of deep connections with one simple phrase: “Tell me more.”
Today, I explore how a single statement can transform relationships and foster emotional honesty. I also explore the impact of inviting others to share their stories, emphasizing the importance of being present and truly listening.
Key Takeaways:
– Discover why “Tell me more” is a game-changing invitation for deeper conversations.
– Learn how to create safe spaces for emotional sharing without needing to fix or judge.
– Understand the significance of connecting through genuine storytelling in your relationships.
Tune in now to enrich your interactions and support those around you on their grief journey.
RESOURCES:
- Teeccino – listeners receive 10% off the entire order with the code “THEUNLEASHEDHEART”
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Support the Show.
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
The Power of Emotional Honesty in Storytelling
The Importance of Deep Emotional Connections
The cornerstone of Grieving Voices lies in fostering deep emotional connections between guests and listeners. These connections are not just about sharing words; they involve touching hearts and minds on an intimate level. When we engage in emotionally honest storytelling, we transcend surface-level interactions and create bonds that resonate with empathy and understanding.
Why “Tell Me More” Matters
One powerful phrase highlighted by the host is “tell me more.” This simple invitation encourages individuals to open up and share their stories without fear of judgment or unsolicited advice. It’s an offer to sit with someone in their vulnerability, listen attentively, and provide nothing but your presence.
Imagine being asked to share your story genuinely for the first time—how liberating would that be? For many people, this might be an entirely new experience where they finally feel heard.
The Journey Towards Offering Support
However, offering such support requires one crucial step: undergoing one’s own emotional journey first. If you’ve never had the chance to share your story safely, it may be challenging to extend that same opportunity to others. Personal healing often precedes our ability to help heal others.
Normalizing Conversations About Grief
The host concludes by urging listeners who find value in these conversations about grief to share the podcast widely. By doing so, we contribute towards normalizing discussions around grief as naturally as talking about everyday topics like weather forecasts.
Grieving Voices aims not only at providing supportive content but also at making heartfelt dialogues commonplace.
Unleash Your Heart
So next time you find yourself listening intently or asking someone “tell me more,” remember—you’re participating in something much bigger than just a conversation—you’re helping unleash hearts…and lives too!
Thank you for being part of this transformative journey! And always remember when you unleash your heart; you unleash your life.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of Greeting Voices. I am your host Victoria V. And it’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded one in quite some time, so I felt it was about time. But I wasn’t sure up until today, actually, as I’m recording this, what I was going to talk about. But there’s been some themes popping up lately, and we’ve there’s been some losses in my community, really tragic deaths in my community. Friends dealing with certain things and conversations I’ve been having with guests on my podcast and in particular, if you haven’t listened to episode two zero seven with Tiff Carson from last week, that’s a great episode. She went very deep and it was just a really rich conversation. She was very vulnerable and it we were both crying. Just a really good episode to highlight the depths of grief and the effect of the the impact of generational stuff that gets passed down to us, which kinda ties into today’s episode as well. So Anyway, the question I want to pose an answer today is what to do when a loved one is not coping well with death in the family. And so this episode is though not going to be a tell you what to do when this happens. So the title of the podcast is kind of a a hook, if you will, to get you to listen to this because what I’m going to do instead is to package this episode as a lot of questions. And I think when we ask ourselves diaper questions? No. I don’t think I know. I know that when we ask ourselves deeper questions, we get deeper answers. And we often don’t wanna get those deeper answers because when we know it, We know it and we can’t unknow it. And we often have to face things within ourselves when we ask those deeper questions. You know, learning about my human design, which has nothing to do, with grief in this episode, but I’m just I’m going to share though what what has what I’ve learned about myself is that my superpower is asking questions, is being the questioner, I have the gate of doubt as my son, conscious son. And I am the natural skeptic, and I am the questioner. And I also have connectedness as one of my top five strengths in my u mab. And if you’re unfamiliar with human design or u mab, just check out my website, danleychart dot com, go under services, and you’ll see you map. You’ll see the grief work and and you won’t see human design on there, but that’s just a kind of a side thing I’m into. But anyway, my point in this episode is to bring to you questions for self reflection.
And I’m gonna start with this idea, number one. I mean, there’s three points I’m gonna cover today, but number one, is this idea of not coping well versus coping well. The second is looking at the relationship with that person who you deem is not coping well, quotation marks, coping well. And third, where our focus goes, our energy flows. So Number one, not coping well versus coping well. I just want you to reflect on yourself. Here and your own beliefs about grief. What were you raised to believe about grief? Was healthy coping, emulated for you as you were growing up? Did your parents And in your household, did you openly talk about grief? Did you openly talk about death and loss? I’ve recognized there are I mean, just in the podcast, four plus years of podcasting, there’s been very few guests who have shared that they openly talked about grief and loss. Usually, it was because the parent had worked in the death and dying industry. And, you know, as a mortician or something like that where grief was just at the forefront of their lives. And that’s not very common. What’s more common is that grief is kinda swept under the rug. We don’t talk about it. It that’s It’s why we have these societal issues around grief the way we do today. I think back when, way back when, we mourned differently than we do now. We mourned openly.
Women wore black for, I don’t know, how many days or weeks. As long as they needed to, perhaps, they took pictures with their deceased loved ones. They kept them in the home. Most people died in the home. The services were not left to a third party, you know, to handle all of the you know, the body and the logistics and all of that. Like, it was more of a community family involvement. Way back when. We’ve kind of removed ourselves from that death and dying process and being participants in that. And move towards stuffing down our grief, stuffing down our emotions, not talking about it, sweeping it out of the rug, giving all the power and agency to other people. Not having open conversations and dialogue about what we want, when we die, what our desires are. If we are encompensated. Like, we just don’t have these conversations. Right? And so I just wanna want you to ask yourself, Are you coping well? Because, you know, listening to the first ten episodes or so of this podcast If you haven’t, that’d be a great place to start too.
I talk a lot about what we talk about when I work with Grievers and Grief Recovery We tend to grieve alone. We tend to try and be strong for everyone else around us and for ourselves. We tend to keep busy, bury ourselves and work. Maybe we’re resorting to behaviors that make us feel better for a short period of time such as what we call them sturbs. Short term energy relieving behaviors where we might drink or exercise can be a stirb, shopping, gambling, things like that. Are you coping well? Are you doing those behaviors? Because if you are news flash, you may not be coping very well yourself. So then we project these ideas onto our loved ones who are not responding to death in the same way that we are. We’re thinking we might have our shit together and I’ve got this and we’re being strong for everybody else, but that’s not coping well.
That’s surviving. That’s not thriving. So the flip side of that, what does that look like? It means open dialogue. It means open communication.
It means sharing your feelings in a wrong authentic way. It means not apologizing for how you’re feeling. It means crying when you need to cry, not caring who sees it, openly grieving. And yes, we all do grief differently. We do grief differently, but in as a society, I think we all grieve similarly, and that’s in these ways I was describing. Not trying not to feel bad. You know, we tell people, don’t feel bad. Here’s the tissue. Stop you’re crying. Right?
We get uncomfortable when other people are crying around us or showing their emotions and so we want to shut them down like as it makes me uncomfortable. We replace the loss. You know, death of a friendship or a relationship or someone passes. We, you know, I I can get a new wife or a new husband or a new spouse or a new dog or a new cat or whatever it is, we replace the loss or maybe we’re replacing that loss with a disturb. Either way, we often replace the loss. Pour ourselves in our energy into something else to distract ourselves. And if things aren’t working well, well, we grieve alone because no one wants to hear about our loss a year from now, because we should be over it. Right? You should be over it by now. So the people saying that, you should be over it by now. How are they coping? And so I think there’s this false sense or idea that Internally, we believe we are coping well and these other people around us are not. But who defines what’s coking well? Who defines that? Do you define that as a retriever, as a fellow retriever in your family? And you maybe feel like you’re responding better than somebody else because why? Because your behaviors are not the same? Because you’re not pouring your heart out and talking about it because you’re, you know, being stoic and and maybe you have that German heritage, like I see so often in my area, and like I do in my family, where, you know, we’re strong. We don’t talk about it. Like, it’s, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry on. You can’t change it. Death comes, it happens to everybody. Minimizing it. Is that you? I don’t know how well you’re coping then either.
So I just want to highlight that who’s defining coping well versus not coping well. And just reflect on how you’re responding. And just because someone else in your family is responding differently doesn’t mean that they are not coping well in quotations. We can’t force people to grieve like we do. I have a tendency to I need space. I need to process my emotions first before I talk about them. To some people that may seem cold, that might come off as cold or detached. I just need time to process internally first before I can articulate what it is I’m feeling. And that takes time. And who’s to tell me how much time that should take? Right? Another aspect of this is that every relationship is unique. So because someone is responding differently than you, consider that their relationship is different than yours to the person who passed. You you might think that you were the closest person to that person who passed. But we never really know. We never really know. Okay. So secondly, coming back to the relationship with that person. Kind of piggypacking how relationships are unique. So Who is not coping well in quotations or choosing to respond to grief differently? The dynamics of the relationship can matter here. Right? So let’s say it’s a grandparent that’s dying. And a parent isn’t responding. You’re the grandchild and your parent isn’t responding how you would have expected or you would have thought or how you feel they should be. Right? And that can make you feel angry. That can make you feel sad. But we often don’t know the dynamics in the close relationship that, obviously, generations before us shared. Because, again, as society often is, we don’t talk about the good, the bad, and ugly. We talk about mostly the good and we sweep the bad and the ugly under the rug. We don’t talk about the painful stuff. We don’t talk about the, you know, maybe it was codependency in our relationship. Maybe we don’t talk about how, you know, maybe maybe that parent felt smothered by their by their parent, by your grandparent, or maybe they felt so loved and so close that the thought of that person dying, the thought of their parent dying is too painful, and so they completely detach. And that’s not a response you would expect.
You know, we can have painful responses to grief when it hits us, when we realize, when we accept this is what’s happening. I can’t control it. I can’t do anything about it. And so we can run Like often many people do, we choose to run from our emotions, resort to what we know from growing up, behaviors that we resorted to, to cope, when things got hard, or we can embrace the grief as a family, as a unit, and talk about these things, but we often don’t. Where there could be compassion and understanding, instead there’s resentment and anger and frustration and sadness, Sadness will be there regardless, but all these are the things wrapped in there. And this is why grief is so messy because relationships are unique. And we often don’t understand the depths of those relationships of the others in our lives. Of others in our lives. You know, if it’s a sibling that passes, you know, the parent had a different relationship with that sibling than you did, obviously. And maybe you were so close with that sibling, you detached. And your parent might think, well, maybe you don’t care. And maybe you have anger and resentment towards that sibling. And you just kind of bug out and not really around and not part of the family grieving process. And often that person might be it might be the thought would be, like, they’re not coping well. But if we don’t, we don’t have these skills. We aren’t taught these skills of how to cope well. That’s my point in this episode too is like we are not taught these skills of how to cope well with grief. We just aren’t. And so it’s like calling the kettle black. Right? That’s my point in this episode too. It’s like, it’s easy to say at someone else isn’t coping well, but yet if you have not received the coping skills, for grief and pain and suffering in your life. It’s very possible and very likely that the person that you’re feeling this way towards hasn’t either. And so the only way to get to the other side of this is to have the hard conversations with the people we love. We can’t force people to have these conversations, of course. And you can’t build from a place if there wasn’t you can’t have these conversations, if there wasn’t a a foundation of trust and safety either. And so maybe that’s where you can start. How do you cultivate trust and safety within yourself? And those closest to you. And that’s where Tiff Carson, I want you to listen to that episode because, you know, she chose to love her brother through his addiction. But she shares how she got to that point. It’s a really great episode that illustrates that. And the third point, energy flows where the focus goes. So again, if your focus is on this anger and this resentment towards someone else and how they’re responding to grief in in your family. And you’re ruminating on that. That is doing nothing. That is not helping. It’s unnecessary suffering for you because really the all you have say in is how you respond. That’s all you have control over is how you choose to respond to the grief in the family. Your own grief, your personal grief. And then how can you be a light? In the darkness that is family grief. Number one, you can learn these healthy coping skills. You can learn new tools to help you, thereby helping your loved ones. And you learn those new skills and those new tools and that new knowledge through great recovery. Through my through the program, do grief differently. It’s twelve weeks. And I do have two openings right now. If you are interested, go to my website to learn more. And we meet once weekly for twelve weeks. And it is very much it’s not therapy, but it’s very much therapeutic. Very therapeutic. And you will learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible about your grief, about drawing connections between your childhood and adulthood. Because, look, these things, these patterns of behavior, these belief patterns, these thoughts that we have around grief, these This is this is where we get generational things continuing on, these beliefs continuing through generations. And the only way to break that cycle and to learn new now is to learn new knowledge and new tools. Because if you are prone to sweeping your grief under the rug to not talking about it, to, you know, so easily pointing the finger at other people that they’re not responding this way and they’re not responding that way instead of looking at what it’s bringing up for you. What connections can you draw from what you’re feeling about the person who’s not coping as you think they should, what is that bringing up for you in particular? Why does that feel so painful for you? There’s something there. And so, again, this episode wasn’t to tell you what to do.
Although new knowledge is what I would suggest. Learn new knowledge. Educate yourself around grief so you better understand it. And then opening a dialogue and conversation amongst those you you love. To be the light. Ponder these questions. Start this episode, come back to it, share it. If you have further questions for me on this episode, please put them. There’s a on Spotify, you can actually respond to this episode. Put a question there if you want. Email me victoria down leashhart dot com. Share your thoughts on this episode or have or share your questions if you have them. I’ll privately answer them or I can, you know, with permission, I can share my the question and spots on this podcast for others so we can all learn. There’s always more to learn. And we learn within the context of our relationships too. And their mirrors for us, reflecting back what we need to look at within ourselves. So thank you so much for listening. My throat is getting dry. I’ve been talking a little too much already. And so that’s my cue to end it here and to thank you. And with gratitude in my heart, Thank you for listening, and I hope you listen to future episodes. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Q&A, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Let me support you in this week’s episode by guiding you through a journey of understanding grief—especially when someone close doesn’t seem to be handling a family death well. This isn’t just another conversation but an invitation for introspection and growth.
Key Highlights:
The episode is thoughtfully structured around three pivotal areas:
- Coping Perspectives: It challenges us to question societal grieving norms and consider what constitutes healthy coping.
- Relationship Dynamics: Every bond with the departed is unique.
- Energy & Focus Direction: Looking inward at our own healing rather than outward in judgment.
Open dialogue about grief within families can lead to personal healing and generational change. This isn’t easy, but it’s necessary for healthy healing to continue within family dynamics —and ultimately transform generational trauma and beliefs that are not in anyone’s highest good.
I invite you to engage further, ask probing questions about your own experiences with grief, and explore resources for guidance on this tender path.
This episode goes beyond mere discussion—it offers deep insights that may help you unlock something deep within that, perhaps, you’ve never realized before hearing this episode. If you find it helpful, please share this episode with someone you know and love, for it may unlock something for them, too. And who knows…it may be a catalyst for conversation as well. 💛
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Reflective Journey Through Grief
Grief is a labyrinthine journey, one that often feels isolating and incomprehensible. In the latest solo episode of Grieving Voices, this offers a lantern in the dark – not by showing you the way out but by illuminating the path within.
Coping Well or Not at All?
In society’s silent classrooms, we learn that grief should be quieted, endured stoically behind closed doors. I challegethese norms through self-reflection questions about our personal beliefs surrounding grief and coping mechanisms inherited from family dialogues—or lack thereof.
The Personal Tapestry of Relationships
Every relationship paints its unique hues onto the canvas of loss—no two connections are identical. Understanding this tapestry means acknowledging varied responses to death based on past dynamics or individual closeness with the deceased.
For instance, parental grieving can manifest diversely even under one roof; it’s essential to peer beneath surface assumptions into underlying relational complexities before forming judgments about someone’s process.
Where Does Your Energy Flow?
It’s easy to spiral into resentment when fixated on another’s way of handling loss—but what if we redirected that energy? Instead of outward critique, this is I advocate for inward reflection upon our own methods for navigating sorrow.
Constructive coping isn’t inherent—it must be cultivated like any skill set. To aid in this growth, “Do Grief Differently,” is a course designed to equip individuals with healthy tools for processing their pain.
Opening Dialogues for Healing
The closing message resonates deeply: healing starts when dialogue opens—not just externally but within ourselves as well—and education is key in transforming generational approaches toward bereavement.
With heartfelt gratitude towards her audience’s willingness to embark on such vulnerable reflections alongside her show’s mission—to change perceptions around grieving—I urge everyone towards introspective consideration and openness regarding their experiences with loss.
Listeners are left contemplating not only how they grieve but also how they can evolve those practices moving forward—for themselves and future generations alike.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of Greeting Voices. I am your host Victoria V. And it’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded one in quite some time, so I felt it was about time. But I wasn’t sure up until today, actually, as I’m recording this, what I was going to talk about.But there’s been some themes popping up la tely, and we’ve there’s been some losses in my community, really tragic deaths in my community. Friends dealing with certain things and conversations I’ve been having with guests on my podcast and in particular, if you haven’t listened to episode two zero seven with Tiff Carson from last week, that’s a great episode. She went very deep and it was just a really rich conversation. She was very vulnerable and it we were both crying. Just a really good episode to highlight the depths of grief and the effect of the the impact of generational stuff that gets passed down to us, which kinda ties into today’s episode as well.
Victoria Volk: So anyway, the question I want to pose an answer today is what to do when a loved one is not coping well with death in the family. And so this episode is though not going to be a tell you what to do when this happens. So the title of the podcast is kind of a a hook, if you will, to get you to listen to this because what I’m going to do instead is to package this episode as a lot of questions. And I think when we ask ourselves diaper questions? No. I don’t think I know. I know that when we ask ourselves deeper questions, we get deeper answers. And we often don’t wanna get those deeper answers because when we know it, We know it and we can’t unknow it. And we often have to face things within ourselves when we ask those deeper questions. You know, learning about my human design, which has nothing to do, with grief in this episode, but I’m just I’m going to share though what has what I’ve learned about myself is that my superpower is asking questions, is being the questioner, I have the gate of doubt as my son, conscious son. And I am the natural skeptic, and I am the questioner. And I also have connectedness as one of my top five strengths in my u mab. And if you’re unfamiliar with human design or Youmap, just check out my website, theunleashedheart.com, go under services, and you’ll see Youmap. You’ll see the grief work and you won’t see human design on there, but that’s just a kind of a side thing I’m into. But anyway, my point in this episode is to bring to you questions for self reflection. And I’m gonna start with this idea, number one. I mean, there’s three points I’m gonna cover today, but number one, is this idea of not coping well versus coping well.
Victoria Volk: The second is looking at the relationship with that person who you deem is not coping well, quotation marks, coping well. And third, where our focus goes, our energy flows. So Number one, not coping well versus coping well. I just want you to reflect on yourself. Here and your own beliefs about grief. What were you raised to believe about grief? Was healthy coping, emulated for you as you were growing up? Did your parents And in your household, did you openly talk about grief? Did you openly talk about death and loss? I’ve recognized there are I mean, just in the podcast, four plus years of podcasting, there’s been very few guests who have shared that they openly talked about grief and loss. Usually, it was because the parent had worked in the death and dying industry. And, you know, as a mortician or something like that where grief was just at the forefront of their lives. And that’s not very common.
Victoria Volk: What’s more common is that grief is kinda swept under the rug. We don’t talk about it. It that’s It’s why we have these societal issues around grief the way we do today. I think back when, way back when, we mourned differently than we do now. We mourned openly. Women wore black for, I don’t know, how many days or weeks. As long as they needed to, perhaps, they took pictures with their deceased loved ones. They kept them in the home. Most people died in the home. The services were not left to a third party, you know, to handle all of the you know, the body and the logistics and all of that. Like, it was more of a community family involvement. Way back when. We’ve kind of removed ourselves from that death and dying process and being participants in that. And move towards stuffing down our grief, stuffing down our emotions, not talking about it, sweeping it out of the rug, giving all the power and agency to other people. Not having open conversations and dialogue about what we want, when we die, what our desires are. If we are encompensated. Like, we just don’t have these conversations. Right?
Victoria Volk: And so I just wanna want you to ask yourself, Are you coping well? Because, you know, listening to the first ten episodes or so of this podcast If you haven’t, that’d be a great place to start too. I talk a lot about what we talk about when I work with Grievers and Grief Recovery We tend to grieve alone. We tend to try and be strong for everyone else around us and for ourselves. We tend to keep busy, bury ourselves and work. Maybe we’re resorting to behaviors that make us feel better for a short period of time such as what we call them sturbs. Short term energy relieving behaviors where we might drink or exercise can be a STERBS, shopping, gambling, things like that. Are you coping well? Are you doing those behaviors? Because if you are news flash, you may not be coping very well yourself. So then we project these ideas onto our loved ones who are not responding to death in the same way that we are. We’re thinking we might have our shit together and I’ve got this and we’re being strong for everybody else, but that’s not coping well. That’s surviving. That’s not thriving. So the flip side of that, what does that look like? It means open dialogue. It means open communication. It means sharing your feelings in a wrong authentic way. It means not apologizing for how you’re feeling. It means crying when you need to cry, not caring who sees it, openly grieving. And yes, we all do grief differently. We do grief differently, but in as a society, I think we all grieve similarly, and that’s in these ways I was describing.
Victoria Volk: Not trying not to feel bad. You know, we tell people, don’t feel bad. Here’s the tissue. Stop you’re crying. Right? We get uncomfortable when other people are crying around us or showing their emotions and so we want to shut them down like as it makes me uncomfortable. We replace the loss. You know, death of a friendship or a relationship or someone passes. We, you know, I I can get a new wife or a new husband or a new spouse or a new dog or a new cat or whatever it is, we replace the loss or maybe we’re replacing that loss with a disturb. Either way, we often replace the loss. Pour ourselves in our energy into something else to distract ourselves. And if things aren’t working well, well, we grieve alone because no one wants to hear about our loss a year from now, because we should be over it. Right? You should be over it by now. So the people saying that, you should be over it by now. How are they coping? And so I think there’s this false sense or idea that Internally, we believe we are coping well and these other people around us are not. But who defines what’s coking well? Who defines that? Do you define that as a retriever, as a fellow retriever in your family? And you maybe feel like you’re responding better than somebody else because why? Because your behaviors are not the same? Because you’re not pouring your heart out and talking about it because you’re, you know, being stoic and maybe you have that German heritage, like I see so often in my area, and like I do in my family, where, you know, we’re strong. We don’t talk about it. Like, it’s, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry on. You can’t change it. Death comes, it happens to everybody. Minimizing it. Is that you? I don’t know how well you’re coping then either.
Victoria Volk: So I just want to highlight that who’s defining coping well versus not coping well. And just reflect on how you’re responding. And just because someone else in your family is responding differently doesn’t mean that they are not coping well in quotations. We can’t force people to grieve like we do. I have a tendency to I need space. I need to process my emotions first before I talk about them. To some people that may seem cold, that might come off as cold or detached. I just need time to process internally first before I can articulate what it is I’m feeling. And that takes time. And who’s to tell me how much time that should take? Right? Another aspect of this is that every relationship is unique. So because someone is responding differently than you, consider that their relationship is different than yours to the person who passed. You might think that you were the closest person to that person who passed. But we never really know. We never really know. Okay.
Victoria Volk: So secondly, coming back to the relationship with that person. Kind of piggypacking how relationships are unique. So Who is not coping well in quotations or choosing to respond to grief differently? The dynamics of the relationship can matter here. Right? So let’s say it’s a grandparent that’s dying. And a parent isn’t responding. You’re the grandchild and your parent isn’t responding how you would have expected or you would have thought or how you feel they should be. Right? And that can make you feel angry. That can make you feel sad. But we often don’t know the dynamics in the close relationship that, obviously, generations before us shared. Because, again, as society often is, we don’t talk about the good, the bad, and ugly. We talk about mostly the good and we sweep the bad and the ugly under the rug. We don’t talk about the painful stuff. We don’t talk about the, you know, maybe it was codependency in our relationship. Maybe we don’t talk about how, you know, maybe maybe that parent felt smothered by their by their parent, by your grandparent, or maybe they felt so loved and so close that the thought of that person dying, the thought of their parent dying is too painful, and so they completely detach. And that’s not a response you would expect. You know, we can have painful responses to grief when it hits us, when we realize, when we accept this is what’s happening. I can’t control it. I can’t do anything about it.
Victoria Volk: And so we can run Like often many people do, we choose to run from our emotions, resort to what we know from growing up, behaviors that we resorted to, to cope, when things got hard, or we can embrace the grief as a family, as a unit, and talk about these things, but we often don’t. Where there could be compassion and understanding, instead there’s resentment and anger and frustration and sadness, Sadness will be there regardless, but all these are the things wrapped in there. And this is why grief is so messy because relationships are unique. And we often don’t understand the depths of those relationships of the others in our lives. Of others in our lives. You know, if it’s a sibling that passes, you know, the parent had a different relationship with that sibling than you did, obviously. And maybe you were so close with that sibling, you detached. And your parent might think, well, maybe you don’t care. And maybe you have anger and resentment towards that sibling. And you just kind of bug out and not really around and not part of the family grieving process. And often that person might be it might be the thought would be, like, they’re not coping well. But if we don’t, we don’t have these skills. We aren’t taught these skills of how to cope well. That’s my point in this episode too is like we are not taught these skills of how to cope well with grief. We just aren’t. And so it’s like calling the kettle black. Right?
That’s my point in this episode too. It’s like, it’s easy to say at someone else isn’t coping well, but yet if you have not received the coping skills, for grief and pain and suffering in your life. It’s very possible and very likely that the person that you’re feeling this way towards hasn’t either.
Victoria Volk: And so the only way to get to the other side of this is to have the hard conversations with the people we love. We can’t force people to have these conversations, of course. And you can’t build from a place if there wasn’t you can’t have these conversations, if there wasn’t a a foundation of trust and safety either. And so maybe that’s where you can start. How do you cultivate trust and safety within yourself? And those closest to you. And that’s where Tiff Carson, I want you to listen to that episode because, you know, she chose to love her brother through his addiction. But she shares how she got to that point. It’s a really great episode that illustrates that. And the third point, energy flows where the focus goes. So again, if your focus is on this anger and this resentment towards someone else and how they’re responding to grief in in your family. And you’re ruminating on that. That is doing nothing. That is not helping. It’s unnecessary suffering for you because really the all you have say in is how you respond. That’s all you have control over is how you choose to respond to the grief in the family. Your own grief, your personal grief. And then how can you be a light? In the darkness that is family grief. Number one, you can learn these healthy coping skills. You can learn new tools to help you, thereby helping your loved ones.
Victoria Volk: And you learn those new skills and those new tools and that new knowledge through great recovery. Through my through the program, do grief differently. It’s twelve weeks. And I do have two openings right now. If you are interested, go to my website to learn more. And we meet once weekly for twelve weeks. And it is very much it’s not therapy, but it’s very much therapeutic. Very therapeutic. And you will learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible about your grief, about drawing connections between your childhood and adulthood. Because, look, these things, these patterns of behavior, these belief patterns, these thoughts that we have around grief, these This is where we get generational things continuing on, these beliefs continuing through generations.
Victoria Volk: And the only way to break that cycle and to learn new now is to learn new knowledge and new tools. Because if you are prone to sweeping your grief under the rug to not talking about it, to, you know, so easily pointing the finger at other people that they’re not responding this way and they’re not responding that way instead of looking at what it’s bringing up for you. What connections can you draw from what you’re feeling about the person who’s not coping as you think they should, what is that bringing up for you in particular? Why does that feel so painful for you? There’s something there.
Victoria Volk: And so, again, this episode wasn’t to tell you what to do. Although new knowledge is what I would suggest. Learn new knowledge. Educate yourself around grief so you better understand it. And then opening a dialogue and conversation amongst those you you love. To be the light. Ponder these questions. Start this episode, come back to it, share it. If you have further questions for me on this episode, please put them. There’s a on Spotify, you can actually respond to this episode. Put a question there if you want. Email me [email protected]. Share your thoughts on this episode or have or share your questions if you have them. I’ll privately answer them or I can, you know, with permission, I can share my the question and spots on this podcast for others so we can all learn. There’s always more to learn. And we learn within the context of our relationships too. And their mirrors for us, reflecting back what we need to look at within ourselves. So thank you so much for listening. My throat is getting dry. I’ve been talking a little too much already. And so that’s my cue to end it here and to thank you. And with gratitude in my heart, thank you for listening, and I hope you listen to future episodes. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the quiet rustle of leaves and the gentle caress of a mountain breeze, Tiff Carson found an unexpected sanctuary. A portable chair became her throne as she nestled amidst nature’s embrace—mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans—in Victoria and Vancouver to weave tales not just with words but with her soul.
The waves whispered secrets and memories to Tiff; they took away bits of sorrow each time they retreated back into the ocean’s depths. It was here that she learned writing could be more than a craft—it was therapy.
“Give yourself grace,” an advice once enigmatic now resonated deeply within her being. On some days, grief clung like morning dew on grass blades – heavy and visible; on others, it receded quietly into shadowed corners of her mind. Through this oscillation between pain and peace, self-compassion became Tiff’s mantra.
Her voice rose above the stigma often shrouding mental health discussions as she advocated for open dialogue about generational trauma while highlighting how critical parental apologies are in healing old wounds.
Takeaways on this episode:
- Sibling grief is often overlooked but carries profound significance throughout one’s life.
- Early traumatic events can set individuals onto difficult paths; understanding these origins is crucial for empathy and support.
- Transparent communication about emotional pain within families is essential for collective healing.
Join me as we delve into these poignant topics that remind us all that while our journeys may be hard at times, they are also filled with beauty when approached with openness and vulnerability.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Echoes of Sibling Grief and the Power of Voice
Grief is a universal experience, yet it remains one of the most isolating journeys we can embark on. Tiff Carson, an Alberta-based author, podcast host, and speaker, understands this dichotomy all too well. Through her personal narrative involving sibling grief, trauma, and mental health challenges, Tiff sheds light on how our earliest experiences with loss shape us in profound ways.
Childhood Trauma: A Silent Specter
Tiff’s first encounter with grief was not through the passing of a family member but rather through a beloved pet dog named Mitzi who met an untimely death due to poisoning by a neighbor. This event was more than just a childhood tragedy; it became the inception point for Tiff and her brother’s journey through sorrow—a path that would diverge wildly as they grew older.
In many families like Tiff’s, discussing emotions is often seen as taboo—especially for men. This cultural norm meant suppressing feelings became second nature to them. But emotional suppression has long-term effects; it doesn’t erase pain but instead allows it to fester unacknowledged.
Adulthood: Struggles With Emotional Expression
Transitioning into adulthood brought new awareness for Tiff about these ingrained habits. She recounts her struggle to stop apologizing for showing emotions—a habit rooted deep in her upbringing where vulnerability equated weakness.
Her brother Corey took another route entirely; his gentle nature clashed against their culture of emotional stoicism. His story serves as a cautionary tale about what happens when unresolved traumas are left unchecked—he turned towards addiction at an early age because he didn’t have healthier outlets or support systems available.
Uncovering Hidden Pain
A move during their childhood isolated them further from others which eventually led to Corey enduring violent episodes with their father—an incident that remained hidden until years later. These traumatic events had far-reaching consequences leading Corey down a path marred by addiction struggles and legal issues before tragically losing his life to a fentanyl overdose in 2021.
The violence inflicted upon him by their father wasn’t just physical—it was verbal too—words that acted like daggers shaping Corey’s self-perception negatively throughout his life.
Healing Through Vulnerability
Through confronting these painful memories and dynamics within her own family unit—including learning about Corey’s buried traumas only after she faced mental health struggles herself—Tiff emphasizes the importance of addressing conflicts openly and expressing emotions without shame or guilt.
She advocates strongly for parental apologies as catalysts for healing hurtful interactions between parents and children—the act itself demonstrating vulnerability that strengthens relationships while teaching valuable lessons about accountability.
Even amid estrangement caused by differing views on accountability within families—as shown by her father’s refusal to acknowledge his role in Cory’s trauma—Tiff holds out hope for reconciliation through open dialogue underpinned by understanding each other’s vulnerabilities; essential steps toward mending generational wounds.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is, you’re listening to this episode. Thank you for being here. My guest today is Tiff Carson. She is a passionate and inspiring author, podcast host and speaker based in Alberta, Canada. She has the unique perspective of having lived through her own complex journey of sibling grief, trauma, and mental health issues. Tiff believes when you use your voice, you create positive change for yourself and the world around you. Tiff’s goal is to inspire others by showing how she used her voice to heal. As a devoted mother of three children, TIFF is an advocate for breaking cycles of generational pain so that future generations can live healthier lives. She reminds us all that no matter what our journey looks like, it can be hard but also beautiful. Thank you so much for being here.
Tiff Carson: Thank you for having me
Victoria Volk: and for being open to sharing your story on my podcast because I know you have a podcast which is called
Tiff Carson: hard beautiful journey. And you’ve written a book called dancing in the rain,
Victoria Volk: which is not even in your bio.
Tiff Carson: Book title anyway.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So I just wanted to pop that in here at the beginning here, and we’ll come we’ll circle back to that where people can find you and all of that at the end. But in your information that you shared with me, you you talk about the memoir and your a lot of your focus about the grief story that you wanted to share was about your brother. But what I know about grief personally and just all the stories that people have shared with me is that our grief tends to start pretty early on in our lives, in childhood. And you haven’t shared really any of that so much.
I mean, I’m sure your brother’s story has a little bit to do with that. I mean, if there’s an age gap, things like that.
Tiff Carson: But Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: What was your experience with grief as a child?
Tiff Carson: Well, the the ones that stick out for me, for sure, are my grandparents. That is Actually, before that, I lost a dog that was very, very, very big part of our family. And it was actually poisoned by one of our neighbors that absolutely despised dogs And so we were my brother and I are eighteen months apart, and then we have a younger sister that’s six years younger than me. So my brother and I were about seven and eight years old approximately, and it was our job to let our dog out. In the morning before school and to feed her. Her name was Mitsi. And and just do all the things with the dog. If we were gonna have this dog, we were responsible for it and which we loved. And so one morning, my brother let her out, took her outside, but then he came back in to finish getting ready for school. And then when he went to call her in, she was walking really really slow into the house.
And he was, like, calling for me and my mom and And so we went and right in our very back porch. She walked in the door and she literally collapsed and just died, like, right in front of our eyes. And so that was the first real like, what the heck happened and just the devastation of losing our little girl. And that was yeah, I can’t even describe how devastating it was for my brother too. Like, he was super, super close to her. He always was close with all of the dogs that he’s sewn in his life. So that was I would say that was our first big grief moment and trauma that we experienced. And then of course losing our grandparents and and seeing them deteriorate over the years and not really be themselves like some of them ended up with dementia or a form of dementia and so seeing them go from, you know, your grandparents like you knew them to not really being that was was definitely a difficult thing for us to experience. So, yeah, those were were the ones growing up for sure.
Victoria Volk: I was told to growing up that. I was too little to remember, but we had a dog that was supposedly had been poisoned too.
Tiff Carson: Oh, really? Yeah. It’s awful. It was it wasn’t just our dog. Like, it was they actually ended up having to call the police this family, this couple because they they were doing it to numerous dogs in the neighborhood. And ours was one of them. And then my parents went and got, this is crazy. So before that police were called, my parents, we waited they waited a few months for us to, you know, get used to, like, just go through the grief and stuff, and then they ended up getting another dog for us. We named her ginger. And same thing happened. But we got her to the vet before, and we brought her home, and she ran away. She was like, yeah, no. I’m not staying here. I’m not dealing with that. So, yeah, it was losing the dog and then getting another one and then her running away. And after that, we didn’t get another dog for a while. So I laugh now, but at the time it was like, this is not very good. This is sad.
Victoria Volk: So how was grief talked about in your home as growing up?
Tiff Carson: It wasn’t. Like ever. Ever. I saw my mom cry a lot growing up. But never my dad, never ever. I never saw my grandparents cry or show grief of any kind. The first time I saw my grandma cry and Joe Grieve was actually at my uncle, her son’s funeral. He passed away tragically. In a farming accident, and that was the first time I saw her outwardly grieve. And I was probably about twenty five years old then. So, like, it was it was just not shown whatsoever. It was sniff upper lip and hold it all in and be tough and that’s it. The the boys, the men were definitely held to that standard a lot more than the girls. I noticed that and I wrote about it in my book is be tough, suck it up, beat your your boy, your man. You know, those kind of words were were said. But I also saw it from the women. So it was definitely not as open to talk about the hard things as as it is now.
Victoria Volk: What impact did that have on you as you went into adulthood and experience more grief as we do in life? And and how did you see that? Maybe your brother handled it differently or did things differently from you? Like, how did you see that dynamic play out? Learning not learning about courage, right, and not talking about it, the impact that that had on each of you?
Tiff Carson: My brother was very I call him a gentle giant. He was always very open with his feelings towards certain people. And showed his emotions. Same with me. Like, I I definitely showed my emotions, but when it came to grief and I actually still catch myself doing it sometimes where I’ll start to cry and I’ll say, sorry, Sorry.
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You know, and I don’t know how many times in the last even week where I’ll cry and I’ll start to say that. And then I’m like, no, I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry. And it’s taken I’m almost fifty. And it’s taken almost fifty years for me to stop apologizing for showing emotion and being okay with it. So it it’s definitely been a difficult thing to just get past the I don’t know if it’s embarrassment or or the shame of being vulnerable. I don’t know. But in the last two years, definitely since my brother passed away, I’m learning to just say screw it. Like, I’m I’m okay. With you seeing this. And I am not a pretty cryer whatsoever. And I’m definitely okay with people seeing the real me and what I’m going through and what I’m experiencing because it’s giving them the freedom, I guess, the courage to do the same thing.
Victoria Volk: What’s your brother’s name? Corey, he talked about, you know, his struggle with addiction and things like that in your in the information you shared with me. When did those things start to come to light? How old were you? And I recognized you’re only eighteen months apart. My oldest two my oldest is a son and then I have a daughter and they’re eighteen months apart. Mhmm. And I I’m reading this book right now. The author will be coming on the podcast. It’s called always a sibling, and she talks about her brother passing. But what I never really connected or thought about until reading her book was that the relationship that we have with our siblings is the longest relationship we will have with anybody. Even if that person is not in your life, it’s still there’s still an emotional bond there. Of some sort, whether it be healthier or unhealthy, there’s still that connection. And it’s the longest connection. And I personally, I think sometimes your siblings, they know more about you than anybody else because they’ve seen you through your entire life. Right? Really into the music. Yeah. So feel free to share what you wanna share about that. And
Tiff Carson: well, the tears are already starting. So It’s okay. Wow. So, yeah, he was eighteen months older than me. I wrote about that in my book as well about the sibling relationship and sibling grief just in general. That it’s under recognized. Everybody definitely reverts to the parents first, which absolutely understand that as a mom. Absolutely understand that. And then if it’s, you know, an older person, like they revert to the wife and the kids of that person. But there’s very, very few people that actually ask how you’re doing as the sibling of somebody who’s passed away and they were the closest person to you growing up for many years.
Right? And there’s lots of times where you have many siblings. So it just compounds. Right? So I definitely wanted to bring that to late in my book.
So he was eighteen months older than me, and we literally literally were attached at the hip. Growing up. Like, there’s this many pictures, but there’s this one picture. We had, like, white white white hair big blue eyes and, like, if you saw one, there was the other one right beside. And we just we lived in a small town We went everywhere together. We did everything together. And he was my best buddy. And then my sister was born when he was seven and I was six. And so she was like our little baby doll and it was just awesome having a new little sibling and but we were still connected, like super connected. We did lip synch concerts together.
We we did everything. And then we moved a few times. My dad is a musician, was a musician. And so wherever he was playing the most, in his band, we would kinda like move into that area. So we moved a few times. Usually between two locations, And the one move the one last move before everything changed was very, very hard on him and I, my brother and I, because we moved to a farm. And we were not farmers at all. And it was very isolating for us. And we we were very social kids, like we in the house the neighborhood we lived in before, moving to the farm, we were Like, there was just the neighborhood gang. Like, you know what I mean?
Like, the big neighborhood gang of kids, we would just play hide and seek and we wouldn’t we wouldn’t come home till, like, ten at night and just we would be with our friends all the time, and then we were on a farm. And it was like, what where are we? Why are we here? And it was it was a really big adjustment for us in a lot of ways. And something happened when my brother was thirteen living on that farm that I didn’t know about until three years before he died. And but something happened to me around the same time from my brother. My brother beat me up. To uphold in our kitchen on the farm. And I had no idea why, like zero idea. It just came out of nowhere and because him and I were super close. And then all of a sudden, he beat me up. And I was terrified of him after that, and I didn’t know what happened. And then, what happened after that? He used to be or that happened. He was a very talented hockey player, very good athlete. Like, he was being looked at by lots of people because he was just so good, so fast, the goal score. And then all of a sudden, like that, it just changed. And he we call it I call it in my book. He started running. He just he was he just didn’t want to be anywhere near us, nowhere near our family. He was getting into trouble. He was doing DNEs. He was getting into fights. He was he got some assault charges and it literally from thirteen till he was twenty seven. He was in and out of jail, he was constantly in trouble with the law. And that’s when he started getting addicted to drugs and alcohol. And so him beating me up and then going the direction that he was I didn’t understand why he was doing that and why that happened. And it just made this huge wedge between us. And I was so angry at him for doing what I thought he was doing to my parents and like just not just not being a good kid and like, why are you doing this? So he went one direction and I literally went the other.
And I was like, because around town in this small community that we lived in, our last name is Carson. So he would they would say, oh, that Carson kid. Oh, that Carson kid. Just like his dad, that carson kid. Right? And so, like, that was what I heard around town and I made it my mission to not be another Carson kid. I was gonna be a different Carson kid. And so he went that direction and I went to the overachiever. Like, I am going to show you all that I am not like him, and that has literally moved in to my life in so many ways. Like, it just I’m an overachiever still to this day. And so Yeah. That that’s how the the addiction came around was at that time of his life, and it it continued on for the rest of his life until he passed away and he passed away of a of a fentanyl overdose in twenty twenty one.
Victoria Volk: One change. Right?
Tiff Carson: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We never know what’s gonna change the trajectory of our lives. Yep. We’re just, you know, in the the ripples of the decisions that we make as parents. Right? And the impact that that has. And cause and effect has been something that’s really come up a lot for me lately. We learn that concept as young children, you know, you touch the burner, the hot burner on the stove, you’re gonna get burned. Right? Nope. There’s a cause and effect. No. Now I’m not gonna touch the burner because I’m gonna get my hand burned. But we never really why that same principle to our lives really. We don’t think about the impact of our words. We don’t think about, you know, the cause and effect. Of our words and our actions and our choices and our decisions and how that affects everybody else in our lives. Mhmm. Are you open to sharing? What what it was that he was projecting so much of his anger out? On you and the rest of the family and
Tiff Carson: Yeah. It’s I wrote about it in a book and And it’s amazing how when these things happen, how it is a learning lesson for me now as a parent and how it’s changed by parenting. It was something that happened between my dad and my brother. So my sister and I and my mom had gone out of town for a few days. And my brother stayed home with my dad to help him around the farm and my dad was playing in the band in the town that we lived in, and he asked my brother to stay home and not go out. But my brother, like I said, he hated the farm. He hated the isolation. He hated it with a passion. And So he got on his bike, and he rode his bike to a nearby community where some of his friends live. And he got a ride home from some people with his bike, and the lights were off when he got home. So he thought he got home before my dad did. And when he went in the house, the lights came on. That’s my dad’s m l’s sitting in the dark because that’s what his parents did. And the lights came on and my dad was there and From what my brother has told me and my mom and a trauma therapist, he pummeled him. He beat him into oblivion where he could hardly even walk up the stairs to his bedroom. And when he got up the next morning, he said that my dad didn’t even bat an eye when he saw his black eyes. And he said that my dad said if you’re not going to respect what I have to say and listen to me, then you can just leave. I’ll pay you and you can just leave. And, yeah, when I it looks like So I’ve done this so three years before he died from my mom. And literally as she was telling me this story. At first, I was like, there’s no way my dad did that. There’s no way. Like I I just instantly went to denial. But in my soul, it was like she was handing the puzzle piece. Like, here you go. Because not long after that happened to my brother, my brother beat me up. And he was so angry at me and my little sister for not getting the same treatment as him. And literally, that’s when he started running. He was like, hey, he doesn’t want me here, so I’m just gonna go. I’m gonna go. I’m gonna run. He told me to leave. So that’s what happened. There was another incident couple years actually before that that he actually got severely beaten by my grandpa in front of all of us. So a lot of a lot of physical violence where he felt like he wasn’t loved by the male, influences in his life, and that’s very, very devastating to the foundation of a boy. But why I say that’s a lesson for me now is parenting is so hard. All three of my kids were IVF, babies. It took ten years to get them. Ten very long years to get them, and all three of them were diagnosed with ADHD and ODD. Oppositional defiant disorder. And so they have been a very difficult parenting journey, very difficult. So I get the the difficulty of parenting to my core. Like, I get it. And even with the difficulties and things that are said or done in the heat of a moment when you’re angry, when you’re upset, all of that. The thing that I’ve learned from all of this from my brother’s journey is that how you handle the after. How you handle when you’ve done or said something that could have hurt somebody else, like your children, Take the time you need. First, take the time you need to decompress and or walk away or breathe or something. But then come back and actually have a conversation with them. And I have done that so many times since I’ve learned about my brother’s drama. And I know it is making a difference with my kids and my relationship with them. Because I I, like, I wrote about it in a book. There was one morning where my boys were just so so disrespectful for to me, we are on our way to a doctor’s appointment for for one of them and They weren’t listening, they weren’t talking back. It was just it was a horrible morning. And I said the same things my dad did. I said, if you’re not gonna listen to me, then you’re not gonna live here. Get out of my house. I said the same words my dad did. And I went into my room to get ready, and I was so mad at myself. I was so mad that I chose those words to say to my kids, but I also gave myself grace that you know, this is hard. And I came out of the room and they were balling, like getting on their backpacks and trying to get their shoes on, and they were crying. And one of my boys said, you’re the worst mom ever who tells their kids to leave And the other one was looking at me with, like, literally tears streaming down his face. He’s like, where are we supposed to go? I don’t know where we’re supposed to go. And like just balling. And we get in the car.
And before I started driving, I just turned they were sitting in the back and I turned around and I just said, I am so sorry for what I said to you. I didn’t mean what I said. But I want you to know why I said it and why I got to that point because this was going on. And I said, but I never should have send those words to you, and I hope that you forgive me. And both of them were just like, we’re so sorry, mom.
Like, we know what we were doing was not Right? And and one of my boys said, you know, mom, it’s okay if people cry. Like, I know it is, buddy. And it’s okay if you cry right now too, and he started crying again. And then my other boy, their twins.
He said, yeah, who cares if people see it and say anything? So I was just like, good for you, like, good for recognizing that. There is nothing wrong with showing vulnerability. And since that day, I that’s what I do. If there’s something that has come up and there’s something that was hurtful, I address it sooner than later because all my dad had to do all he had to do was say, sorry, That’s it.
That is it. And it would have changed their whole relationship. So all it takes is I’m sorry. We were both Ryan.
Victoria Volk: How old are your children?
Tiff Carson: Fifteen year old daughter and eleven year old twin boys.
Victoria Volk: I recently listened to a meditation that has you imagining your inner child? That’s hard. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, what would you say to your younger self, you know? Mhmm. And I, like, feel this, like, for your brother, like this, sadness of not feeling wanted It’s that indifference. I think that’s almost I don’t know if it’s worse. They say in psychology, they say it’s worse. Like, Yeah.
Tiff Carson: Yeah. So when I learned about his trauma, Well, in all of these things, but there’s even more, but those are the that’s the big ones or some of the big ones. But it it it was I literally because I was going through my own mental health challenges with my, like, going through in in fertility and our kids and I I had a complete mental breakdown. And it was around the same time where I learned about this. And I was walking on a beach in North Carolina. I went to a mom’s retreat, and I was walking on a beach in North Carolina, and I just walking by myself and I was like, k. If I can give myself grace and love myself with all of this stuff that I’m going through, I absolutely can give my brother that same, and because he’s experienced way more than me. And I wrote this in the book. I chose to love him through it. Everything that he was going through, everything that he was still experiencing with his addictions, which had not gone away.
They were getting worse. And for those who have known an addict, had a family member that’s an addict, it is a very difficult relationship. Very and so me choosing to love him through it. Was a huge step. It was huge just based on everything that had happened over the years. But when I tell you, it’s quite good. When I made that decision, he could feel it. He could actually feel the change. He could feel it in how I looked at him, how I talked to him, how I just sat with him, how everything everything changed when I made that decision, to love him through it. And our relationship was immediately back to when we were little kids. Immediately because he could feel it, I could feel it, and then it’s, like, I need to be there for you. I’m gonna be there for you, and I’m never gonna leave you. And, yeah, I’m just I’m so grateful that he chose to use his voice. He was the one who told my mom about what happened to him because none of us knew. None of us knew what happened to him and why his life went that way. And he chose to tell my mom, and then my mom chose to tell me. And if he wouldn’t have done that, we wouldn’t have gotten to where we were before he died. And so he he gave me the biggest gift. All of us the biggest gift by sharing what what happened to him and being vulnerable. I have no regrets now with how our relationship was when he passed away because it was beautiful.
Victoria Volk: Where is your dad and all of those?
Tiff Carson: My dad just read the book recently. During the three years when I found out about what happened, I had a hard time understanding him. I didn’t and still have never stopped loving my dad because he’s my dad. And like I said, I understand the challenges of parenting and I I give him grace and all of that. Right? But but I still have a really hard time with him not accepting and admitting and acknowledging the pain and the trauma that changed my brother’s life. My dad will not acknowledge it. And he will go to his grave with not fully acknowledging what was done, what was said, and that’s heartbreaking. His stance. I just talked to him two weeks ago about it because he was very angry at me for the book even though I asked him repeatedly for his side of the story repeatedly asked him for his side. Because there is always two sides. And he just says it’s the way that they were raised, and he my brother was not behaving was not listening. And my brother was out of control and all of this kind of stuff. And I can’t change his mind. I can’t make him acknowledge anything, and I I have to come to peace with that. Or I won’t have a relationship with my dad either. But I am very okay with me sitting in the hard and talking things out and just saying, okay, this is where we’re at. I know your mat like, I went and saw them two weeks ago, and you could tell he was very angry at me, very and he was just gonna I call it sweeping it under the rug. He was just gonna sleep it under the rug, like nothing. Not talking about it. And he was sitting on one of their swings. Like, it’s a two seater. And I just said, so may I come and sit beside you? And he’s like, sure. So I went and sat beside him and and I just I was vulnerable and I just said, okay.
Let’s talk about it. You’re obviously upset with me for what I wrote, so let’s let’s talk. And so he wasn’t going to it first, and then he did, and he was upset with what I wrote and wish that he would’ve I would’ve given I would’ve asked him his side of the story. I’m like, pretty sure I did many times. And that I didn’t talk about my mom’s side of the family in the book? Just his side? And I was trying to explain to him that that none of the things that happened to me and my brother happened at the hands of my mom’s family. So talking about my mom’s family’s issues, wouldn’t have related to my brother and I in our journey. So yeah, I understand that I talked about the Carson side, but that’s because stuff happened with the Carson side. That changed our relationship and changed people’s lives. And when I talk about I didn’t wanna be a Carson kid, I went through a divorce two years ago. It was just made official in May of this year. And I have been working tirelessly to get my name back. To be a Carson. And I told him, I wouldn’t be doing this. If I didn’t love the cars to pick me because it’s not easy. To go back to your maid and maid here in Canada anyways. And I said that’s how much I love the Carson family. I just don’t love some of the things that happened in the Carson family. So that’s kind of where our relationship is at right now. It’s strained, but I’m okay with that. Because It took a year and a half to write this book. And there was many times where I almost stopped writing. And I kept hearing no. Keep going. Keep going. Put it all in. Put it all in. And I know. How many people that’s helping already, and that’s worth it to me.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to the cause and effect. And perhaps maybe you don’t see yet how this may unlock something for your father. Credit. You know, it’s again, you you kinda touched on it on the information you shared, but this generational trauma, the generational belief systems, and the generational patterns, and we, I think, subconsciously, pass on to our kids unintentionally.
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And clearly, there is something your dad is holding on to.
Tiff Carson: Oh, yes. And it’s in the book as well. The things that my dad experienced.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you know?
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Tiff Carson: It’s in the book as well. Not in great detail, but it was more so at the hands of his mom than his dad. He actually went to live with his grandparents because it was such a bad relationship. He says it was also because they didn’t have enough room. There were all of the kids. There were six kids. It was a small house. His grandparents lived across the street. He’s like, I’m just gonna go live there. But there was times where he lived or stayed at the church with the nuns. It was yeah. He he had a very very hard upper need as well. This violence and and, like I said, sweeping things under the rug. We’re not talking about it. We are not talking about it. We are not dealing with this. Nothing happened. My grandma, my dad’s mom, had many mental health challenges. There was many times where she wouldn’t come out of her room. And they had to fend for themselves. So a lot of stuff and he’s just choosing to not go there. And and that’s his choice. And I I cannot that’s what I’ve come to realize is I cannot force anybody to do their own work, but I can do my own. And I’m going to continue doing my own and showing other people how I’m doing the work on myself and if it inspires them to do the same, fantastic. But I I cannot force anybody anymore. All I can do is my own thing, my own work.
Victoria Volk: You shared how you decided that you were going to love your brother. Through it. Have you given any thought to what that would look like if you chose to do that with your father?
Tiff Carson: I have chosen to load him through it. Actually, when I found out that he had read it, and that he was angry at me. At first, my initial reaction, knee jerk reaction was, like, Well, screw you. Like, you you know, like, I was just angry back at him. And that was that only last maybe a day. And but I was very angry at him for some of the things that he was saying to me and then I actually heard I I hear my brother often, his spirit. And I I heard him say, Love them through it. Love them through it. And I made the decision two weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago. I’m gonna love them through it because I kid. He was a little boy too. That experience and really hard things. And that’s my generational trauma is hard. And But my my whole goal, my whole purpose, I know, is to shine a light on it. And do like, what I’m doing with my kids is let’s talk about this stuff let’s work through it. Let’s stop sweeping stuff under the rug. Let’s get to a place where Your heart is okay. Before we move on. Because I’ve seen what it’s done to my dad, and I’ve seen what it’s done to my brother. And I don’t want that for my kids. I don’t want that for your kids. I don’t want that for anybody’s kids because I lived with it. And I wouldn’t want anybody’s life to play out the way that my brothers did in some respects. He did have many good moments in his life. But the hard parts, I wouldn’t want that for anybody. Because it was very, very, very difficult for him.
Victoria Volk: There is this thought that I think in psychology that young girls, women tend to marry someone like their father. That can be good or bad. Right? Had you married someone who had those qualities like your father?
Tiff Carson: That’s a interesting question. In some respects, yes, and then some no. My ex husband, who’s a very good father in terms of, like, always wanting to do stuff with them and is very active in their lives. And but he’s also a non talker. Let’s see. There is nothing to see here, folks. That’s not, like, what? You wanna talk? Oh, no. Okay. So, like, those kind of similarities are definitely there. And that was hard for me, especially over the last ten, eight, to ten years as I was, like, starting to, like, you know, I need to talk about this stuff or I’m gonna neither this is not gonna end well. And I wasn’t getting any any of it back and returned. And that was very difficult on our marriage for sure.
Victoria Volk: With the diagnosis of the children. I imagine that that brought up a lot of feelings from the past. Of the anger that you witnessed in the home. Did so did you have this I mean, did you have this United Front with your spouse to work through those struggles? Or do you feel like those were some of the things that your marriage just couldn’t. Where you couldn’t come together?
Tiff Carson: No. The so we we tried for five years before we ended up finally getting our daughter after we were married. But we started the fertility process one year after we were married because you have to wait the year here in Canada. If it’s not working. And he was very supportive in that whole journey to the point where my body actually was they they said that it was I was thirty How old was I thirty one ish at thirty thirty one when I started the fertility program, and my body was acting like mid forties. It just was not. It wasn’t doing what they thought it was going to do. I was on the highest dose possible of in fertility of IVF drugs. And I was still not producing follicles like I should have been there was one point where there was so much blood work and so many ultrasound that my husband ended up not going to all of them just because there were so many. But on this one particular day, he decided to come. He said, no, I’m gonna come with you. And if he didn’t come that day, we wouldn’t have our daughter. Because they did their normal blood work and ultrasound, and then they they normally you just go home and go back a couple days later. But this day, they said, Kate, we need you to meet across the room in that boardroom. And I knew it was not good. And the doctors came in and nurses and they said, so it’s not looking good for this cycle. You’re not producing enough molecules at this point where you should be, and you either can stop the cycle now and wait about three months because you have to wait for your system to get back to a little bit of normalcy. Or we keep going and we try for the best and see if there’s any changes in the next couple of days. And I was so exhausted because this was our second second attempt at In vitro. And we had already done all of the other stuff, like IUI’s intrauterine and semination stuff.
We had already done all of those. And I was gonna just say no more. I’m done. And James, my ex husband said, no, we’re going. We’re gonna keep going.
And I just I know it’s gonna work. We’re gonna keep going. And we got three follicles and we got enough embryos and my daughter. It happened. We got our daughter. So he was definitely a rock for me during all of that. When we got when we had her, it was, like, the biggest blessing in the world. And then but we didn’t have any more embryos left. And so if we were gonna do it again, we’d have to start all over again. And it’s very expensive. And we just we’re happy with having her daughter. And I don’t know what about when she was three years old, we started talking again and said, do you wanna try it again? And his parents loaned us the money, and we started again. And this time, I don’t know if, like, things cleared up down there or what, but it went better than the first time. And we ended up with Twin Boys. And so it was but it was hard. It was ten years. So there’s four and a half years between our daughter and our sons. And but it’s very hard on a marriage. In the respect that you you have the expectation that your bodies are supposed to do these things. Naturally, that your failure if you don’t. And him and I are both extreme high achievers my overachiever tendency came flying through, and it was just very hard to wrap my head around the back that I couldn’t become a mom the natural way. And it was for him too. Like, there was many times where he would say something off the cuff, like, Yeah. Well, like, I’m not able to have a kid normally, like, everybody else and and, like, a man going in and doing that thing and in a fertility clinic is not romantic for one thing. What’s leverage? So, yeah, it’s very hard on marriages, very difficult on marriages. And them to go through that journey of just trying to get them here. And then to have the parenting struggles that we’ve had with them, that’s when I I had my my mental breakdown. I was just so so angry as God. I remember hiding behind the clothes in my closet, hiding from my kids, because I was so done. I was just done with everything. And I just said, why why? Did it take ten years to get them for us to not enjoy, be able to do them? Because it was not enjoyable whatsoever. And while I was saved in that closet, I saw a fork, like a fork in the road. In my mind, I saw it for it. And it was checkout. I completely checkout. I’m like, as in not be here anymore or get help because I was that far gone. And I sat in there for a very long time and cried and was very angry. And when I finally came out of there, I phoned my mom And I said, I need you to come and help you. And she did. Right away that night. And I went to my therapist And I took three months off of work, and I took care of myself.
And in that therapy session, one of them, my therapist said, you know you’re supposed to do something with this pain. Right? You’re supposed to do something with your journey. And I didn’t know what she meant by that. But it’s stuck in my brain. And then it came to me over time. And I was like, I’m supposed to talk about this. Supposed to talk about this. Alright. And so that’s how my podcast came to me. Hard beautiful journey is sharing our story. That’s how it started. Was sharing our journey through infertility and our parenting struggles with kids with ADHD and OCD and everything that goes into that. And I honestly thought that before I did it, I sat down with James, my ex, and I I had written everything out and I read it to him. But I said, are you okay? If I do this, if we share this, and he was completely on board, completely. And I had the thought if I share all of this and that’s all that happens is I share that and nobody listens or nobody cares. Cool. It’s out there. And that isn’t what happened. Everybody was like, oh my lord. Thank you for sharing that. And I’m now at ninety episodes and still going. And I’m I’m talking with other people who are sharing their hard beautiful dirty and who are sharing their stories and being vulnerable in helping one other person in the world by doing so. So that’s how that all came to be.
Victoria Volk: And now you’re on my podcast.
Tiff Carson: And now I’m here. So I’m on a break from my podcast right now for this emerge. And the reason why is because I wanted to share my story on other people’s podcasts and be a guest for once. So I have been enjoying being on this side of the microphone and being asked the questions in a different way to also make me think about different parts my story because it’s an ongoing healing journey every day. And so, like, you bringing up these questions to me is helping me heal more. And even though I’m crying, I see those tears since healing tears. Not anything to be ashamed of.
Victoria Volk: How long ago was that time in the closet?
Tiff Carson: Twenty eighteen. It was no. Sorry. Twenty seventeen. Twenty seventeen, and it was twenty eighteen that I found out about my brother and his stuff. So twenty seventeen, I was going through a lot of therapy. Really working on my own healing journey, and that when and then into early twenty eighteen is when I went to that mom’s retreat in North Carolina. And and I had just found out about my brother’s stuff as well. So it was a lot I was processing a lot of that stuff with my brother and my dad through therapy as well because it did bring him up. What happened between me and my brother that helped me understand our journey. So, yeah, that two year period was pretty, pretty difficult. But it’s it’s just gotten it’s an interesting thing because it it was it’s gotten easier, but also hard because of the grief of losing him and then my marriage ending. But it’s because of the work that I’m doing on myself that I know that’s why I’m getting through these things. Otherwise, I would not be here like at all because it was so difficult before I started getting therapy and talking with people and just being vulnerable. And hearing other people’s stories and sharing experiences and knowing I’m not alone in all of those things have helped me get through these grief journeys because if I would have kept it to myself and just sat here and did nothing, It would have been not a good good situation.
Victoria Volk: Where are things at now with your ex husband and the kids and the dynamics of all of that? Like, how how have you navigated all of that?
Tiff Carson: Well, that is a very good question. Well, Trying to decide how much to share. So there was a lot of rejection that I faced in our marriage from my ex husband. A lot of rejections intimately and connection lines. And there was a point when my daughter was one years old that I almost left him because it had been eleven years of it. And I I know someone that stems from the infertility and, like, the failure side of it and but it would it just wasn’t getting any better. And finally in when my brother passed away. Things hadn’t been really good for about a year before he passed away. But when my brother passed away, James gave me a couple of big hugs to comfort me. And I realized I hadn’t been in his arms like that.
For many years. And I I was like, well, why did it take losing my brother for this to happen. So that after he died, I was just like, what? Why. You know? And that’s when I my brother dying was a wake up call for me. It’s like life is too short. Life is too short. And I don’t think our kids ever saw us hug. Kiss, hold hands, maybe hold hands, maybe once. And that’s it. We were roommates. Taking care of their kids quite literally. And I tried numerous times over the twenty years that we were together to get us to a place where we could be intimate and connect connected and all of it. I don’t know how many times, countless times. And things would get good for a couple weeks and be kind of like, hey, let’s just shut her up. Let’s satisfy her. You know? And then then it stopped. And it was just as a cycle and it just kept happening over and over and over again. And then my brother died and I was like, no, I need more from this. And so I asked for a trial separation. And him and I went to marriage counseling. And we went separately. We went together. And our therapist said, in this three month trial, let’s try it for three months, I need you to focus on yourself, only yourself. And nobody else, no there’s no third parties, nothing. And he chose not to do that. So that was really hard. Again with the rejection. And so but I also made it. I wanted my kids to not deal with any of that. I wanted them to have parents that weren’t fighting, that weren’t you know, mad at each other. And so I I that’s where I did shove stuff. And I I was I said, k. I’m gonna be I’m gonna be friends with them at least. And that was working for a bit, but then I realized that it was actually harming my healing process. And just recently over the last couple months, I put in some pretty firm boundaries that no. I no. You have your new life, and I have mine And the only thing that we need to talk about is our kids. And that’s it. And maybe one day, we’ll get back to that place where we’re friends, but not right now. And that’s very, very hard for me because It’s really hard for people to understand this much. The one thing that we did have at our marriage was a friendship. We had a really good friendship, and now I don’t have that, and that’s what I miss the most. So a lot of grief. A lot, a lot of grief over the last three years. A lot of tears. A lot of guttural crying like where I’m like, you know, the type crying where it’s like, an animal was coming out of you. But a lot of really good days too. A lot of really good days. And so when I’m having the low moments? I know I call it my roller co I have the craziest rollercoaster. I swear to God. It’s God. So many twists and turns and ups and downs. And I’m also going to prepare a bed and pause, so there’s a head too. But I know that when I’m hitting that low on my roller coaster, I know I’m coming out of it a lot sooner, a lot quicker than I used to. And I can feel that. I’m not stained in those little moments as long as I was before, and it’s because I’m talking. And if I need to and I’m writing a lot and I’m breathing, I’ve started doing breath work. And I would meditate as well, but the breath work has really, really helped me. I am walking like I have never walked in my life. Like, it is crazy how much walking I am doing. And it is helping my moods, my mindset. I cry when I walk. I smile when I walk. You name it. I do it all. I listened to music. And, yeah, it’s It’s been a crazy three years.
Victoria Volk: How are the kids doing?
Tiff Carson: They I like I said, I talked to them all the time. All the time. And At first, it was very difficult for them. But I am proud of James and I or that period of time in the initial separation and and all of that where we did have the United front where we were both there for them. And being friends because it it was an easier transition for them and easier change for them in some regards. In some instances, I think it also confused them. And when I knew and felt that they were confused, I talked to them. Because I can see and feel the confusion. And I am not even exaggerating. I talk to them all the time. If I feel like they’re having a hard day, with something or when they’re moving between his house and my house. Like, I give them on the day that it happens and they’re coming back to me, I give them so much grace if there’s something that they’re, you know, in a bad mood or because what happened actually when we separated is we we were so amicable that we bought a condo together for him and I to move in and out of. Every week and our kids would stay home in the family home until we sold it or until we made the decision that it was going to happen. We are gonna get a divorce. And so him and I were moving back and forth or six months. And so we got that experience of moving. And I’m so grateful for that. Because it gave me so much compassion and empathy for that aspect of my kid’s life now that you don’t really get settled. And I yeah, it it’s not not easy for them to do that. Right? And so when they come back to me, when they go back to him, when they come back to me anyway, I give them that time to adjust, and then I check-in with them and, yeah, this very open communication with them.
Victoria Volk: Since that experience of you moving back and forth, informed you of how hard that can be. What kind of decision did you come to together then as far as joint custody and visitation on that.
Tiff Carson: We have fifty-fifty. So we switch every week. Yeah. We have them for one week at a time and we’re very, very, very good co parents. That is even with the boundaries that I’ve put in place and the distancing myself from him in the friendship way, we are really good co parents.
Victoria Volk: It’s great to hear. Really good and
Tiff Carson: I hope to god that never changes. Ever because I just know and seen when it isn’t that way, and I I also know why it can’t be that way if some of the people in the relationship are not cooperative or just narcissists or whatever. Right? There’s a variety of reasons why it can’t be that way. If anything out of our infertility journey and our parenting struggles in it, those moments where I was, like, mad at God for this, I’m grateful that we have this parenting, co parenting.
Relationship. I’m grateful for that because those times where There’s maybe only been three times in the last couple of years where I was just so angry about him. For something that he did or said, and then I didn’t talk to him for a week. Try parenting and organizing three kids schedules with sports and schools and all of it, and you’re not talking with them. It’s impossible. And So, yeah, I just I made the decision and I told him everything is for the kids. And I will strive to be the best co parent with you because they deserve it. And we deserve it after how hard we work to get them here.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned how you were angry with God a couple of times. Where do you sit with that now?
Tiff Carson: I’m at a place of peace with it and understanding. And it was literally from what my therapist said, when she said, you know, you’re supposed to do something with this. There’s a purpose behind it. And when I finally understood that, that I was supposed to help other people with this stuff, and that everything is a lesson and that we’re meant to help each other. I’m not supposed to keep all of this to myself and just suffer in silence. I was meant to help somebody else with my story. And when I finally understood that, I was like, okay, I got it. Got it. God. Alright, but I could use about five minutes off now. Give me a break and then talk to anybody. Just give me a break from the grief for a while. And I think he has for a while. Oh, yeah. That’s growing up.
Victoria Volk: I think we’re on the same mission, and my story kinda came to be too because you know, it’s one thing to to hold it in. And then once you start using your voice, like you said, it’s healing to hear other people’s stories and to share parts of your own with others. And so I might podcast is called craving voices. Mhmm. You know, people can come on and use their voice because I’ve personally learned that that is a way to heal. Mhmm. And process and, like, as we’re talking about it, we’re kind of we’re processing it. There’s always something else to discover and we don’t connect those dots and we don’t recognize those things when Our lips are sealed.
Tiff Carson: Nope. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Then it’s our mind and our ego. That’s just run-in
Tiff Carson: the show. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We’re not connecting with our hearts. So
Tiff Carson: Yeah. Soon as you connect with your heart, it all changes.
Victoria Volk: And it’s game on. That’s really hard.
Tiff Carson: It’s game on and it’s like, okay. Here we go. But it’s worth it in my opinion.
Victoria Volk: So what has your grief taught you?
Tiff Carson: It has taught me that I am. I don’t wanna use the word strong. I am really, I’m strong, but I am love. That’s what it’s taught me. Is that I know how to load.
Victoria Volk: Even when it’s hard. Even when it’s tough. Tell me the significance of
Tiff Carson: four forty four. My brother. The moment he died has been showing me four, four, four, four, in the most craziest places. I believe in angel numbers and angel signs and Yeah. From the moment he died, I have been seen four, four, four, four. And Not long after he died, after his funeral, I went to Texas for a work conference. And I was driving on the interstate. My Corpus Christi in this billboard. One of those electronic ones, and all seven, four, four came up on the mailboard. That’s it. I’m, like and then on the radio, his songs came on just, like, right away. Like and that’s when I was, like, So at first, I I didn’t understand the four four four, like, when he first passed. But then when that happened, I was like, oh, that’s your sign for me. Okay. Alright. Fine. And now it’s like everywhere. Like, I actually have screenshots on my phone when I wake up. And I checked my phone and it’s four four four license plates. On the yeah.
Everywhere. Everywhere.
Victoria Volk: I am there’s a website I I I believe in that stuff too. And there’s a website that I I looked it up. And you probably have two, I’m sure. Yes. But what I looked up and what it right says is that angel number four four four brings a message that all as well. Trust that you are on your correct life path and are doing a great job.
Tiff Carson: He is with me, guided me through this whole thing. He was when I was writing the book too. I felt him with me every everywhere when I wrote. Like, I would actually take my I write if I tried to write in my house or No. No.
No way. And I things would distract me. I’d have laundry to do. You name it. Right?
I No. A good show was on. So I would grab this chair of mine, like a beach chair kind of thing. And I would take it out to the mountains and I would sit in the mountains, buy a river, or buy a lake, and I would write. And he was always with me. Always. Like, I can feel him with me. And I would write by I went out to the ocean. I went out to Victoria and Vancouver, and I wrote by the ocean. And how I would describe my writing at some point was the waves when they were coming in were bringing stories to me. They were bringing memories and they were bringing, like, all of our childhood stuff. And, like, it was, like, I was typing and they were, like, bringing them in. And then when they were going out, it was taking all the sadness and all of the pain. And it was just kinda like this in and out. And I have goosebumps right now because that’s how it was working for me. So if I ever couldn’t if I was having a writer’s block or couldn’t get through a part of the book. I would grab my laptop and my my chair and I would head out to the mountains and Yeah. It just came and water and nature was so healing for me. In my writing journey. And when I write my next book? Because I know I’m meant to write another one. I will definitely do the same thing because that’s what worked for me.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. What is the best piece of advice you had received other than, you know, you have to do something with this pain. Mhmm. What was the best piece of advice you received while you were going through all this? And he lost a friendship too, but is that aside from your x?
Tiff Carson: Yes. And that one I’m not quite ready to talk about yet. That one will be definitely in the second bucket. But the best piece of advice, I think, I got was honestly, it was give yourself grace. And First, I didn’t know what that meant.
And I was just like, what does that mean? Give myself grace. And now I find myself saying that took third people, and I actually just made a post about it the other day. It was give yourself grace, and then give yourself more grace, and then give yourself more grace. Because life can be really, really hard, really, really hard.
And you I got up. I got out out of bed and I had a shower and I brushed my teeth and some days, I don’t feel like doing any of that because I’m I would be in a ball crying. Right? Give yourself greats that you’re doing the best that you can. Some days are harder than others. And not to beat yourself up if you’re having a low day. If you don’t feel like walking or or sizing or eating well, or any of the things where you feel you’re feeling? Just give yourself grace and get up and try again.
Victoria Volk: I feel like you shared a lot that I think will resonate with my listeners. But is there anything that you feel you didn’t get to talk about or something you didn’t get to say that you would like to share here at the end?
Tiff Carson: I think I think the thing that I would always wanna say is that no matter what you go through and things that could hurt you or as long as there’s love in your heart or yourself first and foremost, that is what will get you through these hard times. You can love other people, and and I do. I love everybody, including my dad, including my ex, I have love for them. I love them. But if I don’t love myself, it is a much harder journey. And I am absolutely falling in love with me. So
Victoria Volk: I’d say that’s also another thing that grief has taught you. Yes. How to do?
Tiff Carson: Yes. It has taught me how to fall in love with myself. And I’m very grateful for that. And what gives you hope for the future. I have a lot of hope for that future. Like I said, there’s days where I was in the fetal position and just guttural crying. Right? And then there’s days where I’m like, really, really, really excited or what’s to come? Like, I I I have so much that I wanna do and so many people that I wanna talk to and so many places that I wanna see. That’s what gives me hope is that I have that excitement. I have that desire to want to do those things. And if I didn’t have that excitement and that desire, I think I would be a lot more, like, I don’t know, sad, depressed, and all of those kind of but I do I have a lot of excitement for my future. For me, for my kids, for all of it.
Victoria Volk: That’s wonderful. I love that. You know that that for you? I love that for your kids. Yes. Because if you don’t have hope, where’s theirs? Exactly.
Tiff Carson: And I know I used to put them before anything. Anything. And especially with the challenges that we faced with them with schools and doctors and everything. And I literally put them first. And I stopped doing that.
And I put myself first. And I’m taking care of myself first and my well-being and my mental health. And it is helping them because I am getting better. I am tapier. I am more energetic now. I am like all of the things. And by taking care of my cell first, it’s benefiting them.
Victoria Volk: Would you say that that is your advice to parents who are raising children with ADHD and ODD? Absolutely. Because the way that I was doing it before
Tiff Carson: it put me behind the clothes in my closet. And
Victoria Volk: breaking you.
Tiff Carson: Looking for a way out. And I was completely broken completely broken. And it’s when I decided to get help from my self and take care of myself first. That’s when it all started to change. So highly recommend. I understand it’s hard to think that you have time to take care of yourself first when you’re dealing with those kind of things. I’ve been there. I have three of them. Who all of them were challenging are still challenging some days, and I didn’t think I would survive. I quite literally didn’t think I would survive parenting them. And it’s when I made that choice to Take care of me is when it all it all started to get better slowly. Very slowly. But I could see the light. And it gave me hope and I just kept going and going and going.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to cause and effect.
Tiff Carson: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely nuts.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you if they would like to connect with you and find your book and all the things?
Tiff Carson: I am on social media, so Instagram and Facebook at I m tip carson. And my website is tip carson dot com. And my book dancing and rain is on Amazon, and my podcast is hard, beautiful journey, and you could find that anywhere, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, you need it. It’s on all of them.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. So openly and vulnerability as you did, And I have no doubts that anyone listening to this. There’s a part of your story that will resonate with them.
Tiff Carson: Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to process some my healing, some my grief again.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s guest, Becky Ellis, recounts how her father’s concealed World War II experiences shaped their family life, culminating in her powerful memoir Little Avalanches. Join us as we explore themes of secrecy, resilience, and reconciliation.
Key Highlights:
- Discover how Becky navigated through the silence surrounding her father’s wartime past.
- Understand the challenges she faced while balancing reverence for his heroism against the shadows it cast over their family dynamics.
- Learn about Becky’s decade-long journey to penning Little Avalanches and its role in mending the fractured relationship with her father.
Deep Dive Into Emotional Legacies:
- Grasp how children process trauma differently and why giving them a voice is crucial.
- Witness Becky’s transformation as she listens to her inner child and adult self during writing.
- Feel moved by the harrowing tale of the fateful day at the Mark River, which left indelible scars on her father and all involved.
Becky exemplifies resilience through storytelling, illustrating how unearthing past pains can lead to profound personal transformation and provide voices for those whose narratives are seldom heard. Her life story emphasizes empathy as the key to truly understanding others’ struggles while coping with grief, both inherited and experienced firsthand.
This isn’t just another war story; this is an invitation—to see beyond medals and accolades and into hearts haunted by battlefields far removed from sight and yet ever-present. It’s an exploration of what happens when we confront grief head-on instead of shying away—an acknowledgment that sometimes joy is found not despite sorrow but because we’ve dared to embrace it fully.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available
Support the Show.
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
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Uncovering the Silent Battles: A Daughter’s Memoir of War and Its Aftermath
In a deeply personal account, Becky Ellis shares her journey of writing Little Avalanches, a memoir that traces her father’s harrowing experiences in World War II and its ripple effects on her family. As the daughter of a combat sergeant who bore his scars in silence, Becky steps into the light to narrate not only his story but also hers—how living with unspoken trauma shaped their lives.
From Silence to Revelation: The Weight of Hidden Stories
For decades, Becky’s father encapsulated the stoic soldier stereotype, keeping his war-induced traumas locked away. It was this fortress of silence that cast long shadows over Becky’s childhood. Like many veterans, he carried invisible wounds that manifested through alcoholism and unpredictable behavior—a common yet under-discussed legacy affecting countless military families.
The act of uncovering these secrets did more than just bring them into the open; it became an integral part of healing for both father and daughter. By sharing stories once buried by time and fear, they began peeling back layers of grief and misunderstanding.
Writing as Catharsis: Penning Little Avalanches
Becky embarked on what would become a decade-long project to pen down Little Avalanches. Despite her extensive background in publishing, confronting her own narrative proved daunting when juxtaposed against her father’s dramatic wartime saga. Yet she persisted, learning to give voice to both tales with equal gravity.
Her memoir is not merely about recounting past events; it is an exploration into how children process trauma differently from adults—often silently—and how crucial it is for them (and their adult selves) to be heard.
Echoes from History: Understanding Generational Trauma
As she delved deeper into storytelling, historical context came sharply into focus—the brutal realities faced by soldiers like her father contrasted starkly with contemporary efforts towards preserving humanity even amidst conflict. Through understanding this evolution in military ethos over time, we gain insight into why certain coping mechanisms were adopted by those who served during earlier wars.
Becky recounts one particularly chilling episode where during the crossing at Mark River under relentless enemy fire led to tragic losses among comrades—a moment etched forever in her father’s memory.
Navigating Family Dynamics Amidst Chaos
The impact didn’t end with him; it rippled outwards affecting familial relationships too complex for any child or sibling dynamic chart could capture accurately enough—from divorce battles between parents to strained ties amongst siblings due largely because each member processed pain differently within such tumultuous setting created by lingering war aftereffects at home front lines alike!
Embracing Grief as Part Of Life’s Tapestry
One key revelation emerges loud clear throughout our conversation—it isn’t about overcoming grief but rather embracing it wholly which allows us truly live fully enriched lives capable joy despite—or perhaps even because —our deepest sorrows pains endured along way…
This poignant realization extends beyond herself touching upon roles played other family members especially mother whose support often went unnoticed until now finally receiving recognition deserved through written word spoken aloud together bringing forth collective catharsis shared universally across generations irrespective backgrounds cultures borders alike…
In conclusion,Grieving Voices offers raw authentic glimpse inside world marked silent battles fought behind closed doors revealing untold stories waiting patiently be told… And so does Little Avalanches, beckoning readers join reflective odyssey understanding profound human costs concealed beneath surface glorified narratives surrounding warfare itself!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for joining me on grieving voices with my guests today, Becky Ellis. She is a timber wolf pup. The daughter of a highly decorated World War two combat surgeon, she is a veteran of a war fought at home. Sharon to bachelor’s in English literature at UC Berkeley and has over twenty years of experience in the publishing industry. She teaches writing in Portland, Oregon where she lives, plays, and has raised three daughters. Little avalanches, mister Dayview, memoir, and recently won the Ruberry Book Award for non fiction. Thank you so much for being my guests today, and To be honest, I had to look up timber Wolf pup. I had no idea what that was, and just reading through your website, there was one line that really jumped out at me and really resonated with me. And that’s really where I wanna start today. Because I think it’s
Becky Ellis: it’s could be a billboard.
Victoria Volk: It could be a billboard quote. But you say on your website We are profoundly shaped by the secrets we keep and forever changed by the stories we share. I mean, that says it all, really. It says a lot about grief. It says a lot about trauma. It says I mean, there’s a lot packed into those what is that? Seventeen words? Seventeen words. Yeah.
Becky Ellis: Well, thank you so much for having me here, Victoria. I really appreciate being here. And that is the message that inspired me to even write a book to talk about the things I write about because I learned later in my father’s life, all the secrets that he was keeping and realized how much they’d shaped our family. And once he started sharing his story, it it profoundly changed everything about my process, my healing process, my grieving process, who I am, who I’m becoming, and it had a profound impact on me. So Let’s put a
Victoria Volk: pin in that. Sorry.
Becky Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. No. Go ahead.
Victoria Volk: Let’s put a pin in that because I wanna rewind the clock because you’ve been in publishing for many years, what were you writing about before this memoir came out?
Becky Ellis: I wasn’t writing before this memoir. I was I worked for a publisher that specialized in cookbooks and gardening books. And I worked for time in co entertainment, which the brands there are sunset and southern living and cooking light, and I did sales and marketing for those brands. And I’d also worked for a book distributor as a book buyer and a couple of different things in publishing. I love books, And after I graduated from college, I wanted to work with books.
I always thought I wanted to write, but I didn’t know what to write about. And I found something that I needed to write about. So I started learning to write and becoming a writer. I’ve written some essays and a couple of pieces of short fiction, but for the most part, the memoir is my largest body of work.
Victoria Volk: How many years did it take you to write it?
Becky Ellis: Four months? Well, I sort of start the clock when my father started telling me his story. And from that point until it was published a few months ago was a ten year process. So I wasn’t writing that entire time, but I would say ten years from beginning to end.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So it’s do you find do you look back now and do you find it interesting, curious? Fascinating maybe all of those things that you didn’t know what to write about and yet now that you know what your body of work has created, what you’ve created in little avalanches, like, what is that introspection What did you believe? And what story were you telling you yourself that you didn’t have anything to write about and yet you had lived this life in the shadow of your father’s PTSD as we’ll get to.
Becky Ellis: So one of the things that I learned in the process of writing and processing my childhood and processing our family dynamic and family system and all of that. Is that I always felt like my story was irrelevant compared to my father’s. And although I didn’t have any understanding of what he went through as a combat sergeant in World War two because he wouldn’t talk about it, when I was young, he would fire out he was an alcoholic and he would fire out bits and pieces of really scary story when he was drunk and he would quickly stop himself. And I kind of described that as machine gun fire stories. They were piercing.
They hurt. They were horrible. And I don’t think he wanted to share them, but they came out sometimes, and then he’d stop himself. And I always felt that he was such a decorated war hero even though he never talked about that either. It’s just something that we knew. And I felt the weight of the wound that he carried always. And I felt insignificant compared to that. I felt like I could never have a story as important as his story. So I didn’t even consider my story. In fact, it was one of the greatest challenges in writing a memoir was that my story and my voice needed to be more important or as important as his. And by writing mentor at one time said to me, where are you in this store? Where are you on the page? And I laid out all the pages of the book on my living room floor, and I put a letter on which page my father owned and which page I owned. And it was true. He owns seventy five percent of the story. And that was a huge shift in my process of all of it was just owning my own story and feeling my own story. And what I ended up with is understanding that children’s voices are not very often heard. Children are supposed to act okay, especially when things are not okay. And it’s really hard to allow children to speak. It’s really hard for children to speak because we’re very adaptive. We know when it’s safe and when it isn’t. And it’s also it’s taboo for children to speak. And so I often get a little not a little bit. I often get super scared when I start sharing my story because it still feels taboo for children to speak. But I think to get children a voice in the narrative of even more trauma or any kind of trauma is really important because they aren’t often heard and they don’t have voices and we don’t really consider what they’re thinking and feeling because adults are sort of I know adults really care. I care so deeply. I have to be children three girls of my own. And I care very deeply about what they’re experiencing in a moment of trauma, but it’s really hard to manage. So I think we care and we try. But to actually give them space to voice, I think is is rare. So that that was something that I really wanted to do was make space and give voice, and it was a huge growth process for me. To sort of own my own voice. So my story starts with me as a five year old. And the whole first part of my book is from the voice of a child.
Victoria Volk: What do you tell your five year old self now, your child, your inner child now. Like, before you wrote this book or before this book was coming out and pouring out of you, the you before and the you now? What is the difference? And and and how you show up in the world, but also how you how you show yourself that care and compassion within that you didn’t maybe receive as a child.
Becky Ellis: Right. I’ll start with the dialogue I have with my five year old self, and I still have it a lot, which is I listen to her now. I don’t tell her anything except I I’m listening. And I listen to what she has to say. And I you know, when I was five year old, a five year old and a seven year old and a ten year old, I used to talk to my future self and say, we’re never gonna let this happen. Again, and we’re getting out of here, and we’re gonna move to another continent. You know? Like, we’re not doing this anymore. And I listen to that, and I listen to the promises that she made to us, and I value that. And I think that’s what I do is I pull her into my lap and I say, okay, what do you have to say to me now? Like, where are we? So I think I I have that’s a different relationship that I have with her now. And as far as how I am in the world, I think the process that I went through with hearing my father’s story and sharing mine with him allowed me to find a much deeper place of compassion and empathy for who he is and who I am. I what he ended up doing, and it took several years, but he told me a lot of his combat trauma, a lot of his combat story. And after not talking about it for seventy years, like, he refused to speak about it.
Wouldn’t talk he wouldn’t talk about anything about the past. Not fifty years ago, not five years ago, not five minutes ago. He was a man that moved forward. And did nothing else. But, nope, we’re going forward. We’re not processing the past. We’re not talking about it. We’re on the move. And that was how we survived the war. And that’s how we were surviving life. And so when we slowed down and we had these conversations, he got to a point in his story that was so unimaginable to me and so horrible that for the first time I saw him for who he was, not who I wanted him to be as a father or a grandparent or who I needed him to be as a child, but for who he really was. And in that moment, I was flooded with compassion for him. And I think it’s really rare that we see our parents or our partners or even our children. For who they are and not who we want them to be or who we need them to be. And so dropping my expectations and desires for him gave me I think I think empathy was not a feeling I really had for him before, to be honest, because he was tough. And I was just flooded with empathy. And I began to see the connections from his experience to my experience and what how my childhood was shaped. And I now try to see other people for their reasons and their own experience. Apart from my experience, people have their own experience. And it’s different from it’s different from ours. And so I think it has changed me in that way. It’s really hearing people’s deeper stories I think we can see them for who they are apart from ourselves.
Victoria Volk: Do you have siblings?
Becky Ellis: I do. Yeah. My father had eight children. Had four wives and eight children. So I have one whole brother, my brother Martin who’s a year older than I am and I have a younger sister, Sheena, who comes from my father’s wife after my mother. And the three of us are very close because we were kind of raised together. Then I have two brothers that came with his fourth wife And I have and and I know them well and I’m close with them. And I have three siblings, half siblings from his first marriage who he abandoned those children. So I don’t know them well.
Victoria Volk: So were your your parents, did they end up divorcing?
Becky Ellis: Yes. They were married about,
Victoria Volk: is your mom still living? She is
Becky Ellis: we celebrated her ninety fourth birthday last week. Wow. You go.
Victoria Volk: And your father.
Becky Ellis: My father passed away three years ago at the age of ninety six. Wow.
Victoria Volk: Nice. Isn’t that amazing? Like, I feel like it’s amazing that despite so much grief and trauma, that he lived in ninety six. And I just I imagine your mother too. Like, she was living in the same household. Like, she was going through that same similar experience, not same. Of course, it’s going to be different for her being the spouse. So after the divorce, did you continue to live with your mother then? Or did you live with your father? Or
Becky Ellis: Yeah. There was a huge custody battle. For my brother and I between my parents because my father had abandoned his first three children. He drove away and just never saw him again. And his youngest was nine months old and his oldest was six years old. And well, my mother has told me my father tried to contact them several times when after he he wasn’t successful. And I think he really regretted that. And so he wasn’t gonna make the same mistake with my brother and I. So there was a really big traumatic custody battle And we’re in, you know, my brother and I were pulled into court, and the judge asked us who we wanted to live with, which is a horrible thing to ask a child. But we ended up my mother had primary custody, although they had joint custody. So we spent we we technically lived with my mother. Every other weekend, we went to my father’s. And we spent half our summers in every other holiday with my father, so we were back and forth constantly. And my mother constantly moved around the state of California. She wasn’t allowed to live California. Leave California. So we moved around she moved around California trying to get away from him.
Victoria Volk: So during your visitation, was it, like, this environment that you just couldn’t wait to get out of? Yes.
Becky Ellis: It was. He married Judy, who was my stepmother. And while she was super fun. It was, I think, nineteen or twenty when they met and married shortly after that. So she was pretty much a child too, and my dad was about fifty at the time.
There are forty late forties. She was hippie from the sixties. Your archetypal hippy. She smoked pot. She did drugs. She was fun. But she was also inappropriate. And My dad was an alcoholic, and so it was really scary and unstable and unpredictable what was going to happen when we went to my dad’s. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So I read in your website your dad became a doctor. Yeah. So amongst kind of the chaos that was ensuing in his internal life, he somehow managed to get his doctorate, PhD, MD, whatever he got.
Becky Ellis: MD. Yeah. He so he came back from the war in nineteen forty five. In January, early January. Within a couple weeks, he enrolled in college He was went to Case Western Reserve University. He got his bachelor’s in two years and he got his doctor his MD in four years after that. So within six years, he got his bachelor’s that came in MD, married and had three children. He married a couple months after he got home. He married his high school sweetheart and began having children right away. That’s what he did. And he talked to me a lot about how he became an alcoholic because the nightmares were so horrible. He could not sleep. And so he would drink until he passed out so that he could even fall asleep because he was afraid of sleep and that was his method of getting to sleep. And he would get up the next day and do the whole thing again. He went to school, he studied, he drank, he woke up, He went to school. He studied he drank. I’m sure he tried to take standards or maybe any standards wasn’t an optimal father figure. Yeah, at that time.
Victoria Volk: It’s almost like he had this, you know, like we say in grief recovery, like workaholism, can be a distraction and a disturb, short term energy relief behavior for people to avoid the pain and avoid the grief and the trauma and all of that. And it sounds like that he became a professional at that. And Yes. Outwardly, it would look like, oh, he’s an overachiever. He’s you know, successful and, you know, it’s like these outward appearances only tell a fraction of the story.
Very little of
Becky Ellis: the stats that I really which is true for all of us in our everyday lives. We’re not well known, I don’t think.
Victoria Volk: That’s a good that’s a true statement. That feels like a true statement.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So you mentioned the nightmares and the dreams and things like that and I don’t know for you as a child growing up as a child grieber, but I remember distinctly my dreams and nightmares being in my dreams I was this giant. I was a giant. And I would imagine being able to just pick things up and move things at my will and be able like, it was like I was bigger than life. And I remember watching William Neeson was in a movie called a monster calls. I think I cried during that whole movie. Because it’s about this little boy whose mom dies of cancer. And his it’s like his dream comes to life and in the dream he meets this big monster. And it was like seeing my dreams come to life on this in this movie. I think it’s based on a book too, and I highly recommend it for adults who are child who are child reavers because I think there’s a part of that story that you would probably deeply resonate with, but what were your dreams growing up? Do you remember?
Becky Ellis: Yeah, it’s interesting. I have one that I remember, super clearly, that was a reoccurring dream. And I I pay really close attention to my dreams. Now, I’ve been in, young, analysis for over a decade now. So we do a lot of dream work in that, my therapist and I. Because I think the dreams are an a message to the conscious mind. And I read somewhere in an open dream just like, leaving a unopened letter from your subconscious mind, like leaving a letter unopened if you don’t really examine them. So I don’t always do it, but it’s a method. And from my childhood, my reoccurring dream is that I it’s so personal. It’s so weird.
But I was in a station wagon with my siblings. And there were wolves trying to get us, right, nipping at the tailgates down and they’re trying to jump in and trying to devour us. And they’re nipping at the, you know, the back fender, those silver fenders that Old Station Wagons used to have. So it was always kind of trying to get away from the bad guys, which makes a whole lot of sense to me now. And it didn’t make any sense to me then. But you mentioned at the introduction, you didn’t know what a timber Wolf pop is. And for your listeners, at timber Wolf, is sort of the call name for the hundred and fourth infantry division. Every division has its own sort of nickname or a nickname and they were the timberwolves. And their logo is a their patch is a it’s green with a wool oh, kind of silver Wolf head with its jaws open and bearing its teeth. That is their logo. And their motto is nothing in hell can stop the timber wolves. And while a lot of timber wolves were stopped because my father’s infantry division, his unit, had a three hundred percent casualty rate though he saw so much death and experienced, I’m sure, so much grief. That it’s unimaginable to me how a person could go through that much grief. And my father told me, I think it was their thirteenth day of battle. There was just a huge massacre and he lost most of his men in this battle. And he said after that point, he stopped remembering men’s names. He didn’t wanna know them anymore. He didn’t wanna know he could he said he couldn’t handle the grief. And he always stood by men were not friends. If we were friends, we could not have survived the grief of the war. So we needed each other. We absolutely depended on each other, but we could not warm friendships because we we couldn’t have survived the grief.
Victoria Volk: And it’s so different today in the military. You know, it’s still different today. Fortunately, you know, now it’s like no man left behind or woman left behind and But you know that
Becky Ellis: I think they had that spirit as well, but they were in a situation where they they couldn’t they couldn’t do that. They my father has also shared with me that, you know, the training in the military is to dehumanize the soldier. And you cannot run into machine gun fire, and you cannot go to war unless you’re dehumanize. He said it’s absolutely horrible, but it’s utterly necessary. And I feel like the the same spirit what’s there then is don’t leave anyone behind, but you also sometimes don’t have a choice. You know? I’m sure there are times now when they also don’t have a choice.
Victoria Volk: Well, and what happens to is what what you really leave behind is the essence of who you are. Yeah. You know, he left behind himself who he was before.
Becky Ellis: Right. And your humanity.
Victoria Volk: What was his do you mind sharing? One of the stories that touched you the most? That he shared with you?
Becky Ellis: There are so many that are so horrific.
Victoria Volk: Maybe one that gave you a glimpse into a side of him that you never saw but that expressed maybe the humanity that existed amongst the timber wolves maybe.
Becky Ellis: So what’s coming to me right now is a story that that thirteenth day that I talked to you about was the crossing of the Mark River. And he my father thought in the European theater. And the chaplain came out to the men’s holes the night before. My father, the timberwolves, I’ll just say, a little bit of background. They were at battle for one hundred and ninety five consecutive days, which is more than six months time. And it’s longer than any other infantry division in World War two. And on the thirteenth day, which understand. These are eighteen and nineteen year olds, twenty year olds, his thirteenth day in battle. They crossed the Mark River. Which for anybody that was there could never forget it because it was so horrific. They were trying to cross the river. Where the Germans were on the other side, and they were going through Belgium and trying to try and deliberate Belgium. And the Germans were occupying the other bank. And they were just the night before the chaplain came to their holes. They pretty much slept in mud for the entire time they were on the battlefield. They didn’t sleep in beds or anything like that. And they the chaplain came to their holes and let them read them their last rites the night before this battle because they knew. They were they were going into pretty much a massacre. And so my father made it to the other side of the river, and all of his men were or most of his men were taken out very, very quickly. And I I kinda go into detail in the book about it, about some of the things that happened in that in those couple of hours that they were over there.
But one of the things that struck me so deeply about this humanity that we’re talking about is that my father said he used to swear and yell and call his men every bad name in the book to get him to move to, like, shock him out of shock. And to yell at him. And at one point, my father decided to abandon the mission, which he said to hell with what the general wants. I’m getting these boys out of here. So he founded it, he ran into it, started running back to the river, and he kept yelling at this one guy to get up, get up, run, run, run. And one of the men had died and the other the friend of that man, their names were Jack and Jimmy. And I believe it was Jack that had Jimmy that had died and Jack threw himself over Jimmy’s body and his face was half gone and half of his body was gone, but Jack Jack was not going to leave. And my father said, I couldn’t get him to budge. So they kept going. He had to get his guys out of there. And because they’re under fire, this horrible fire. And so my father ended up down at the Bank of the River. And he told his guys to just start swimming, even though they’re still under a tremendous amount of fire. And the guys some of the guys wouldn’t get in the water because they didn’t know how to swim. And so my dad got in the saw a boat on the other side, gotten the water swam over to get it, brought it back, some guy started jumping in the boat. He’s like, don’t get in the boat. Starts yell. I’m not gonna use all the profanity that he shared with me on his podcast. Yelling at them don’t get into the boat. They they held onto the boat with just their eyes out of the water and got to the other side of the river. But and then there’s some things that happened on the other side of the river that were profoundly disturbing because everybody’s nerves are raw. He said they were so frozen cold. There were ice there was ice in the river also, and so many men had been lost in the river. It was full of bodies and this whole thing. But they got to the other side of the river and were so frozen and exhausted. They had to crawl up the river bank. But when they were able to get back across the river two days later when they were finally able to the the whole division was able to cross. They came across Jack and Jimmy. And Jack was still Jack had died. And there were my dad said there was not a scratch on him. And he said he thinks he died of grief. That he just lay over his friend and and died. And it it almost brings me to tears just that the tragedy that these boys went through. So that’s one small little story. When my dad told me his story, I started taking notes on a yellow piece of paper. And then after a few weeks of hearing him. I started recording him, and I have hours and hours of his recording. But Oh, what was I gonna tell you about that? I can’t remember. Just lost my trade of thought thinking about documenting his story. Oh, it ended up. This is what I was gonna say. Thank you for giving me a moment to recall. His story I wanted to get it right, and I when I wrote it all out, got the timeline all straightened out. It was over three hundred pages long. And I don’t think that we can handle that much grief and horror. So I reduced it down to about thirty two pages. Sort of like a fine bezomic reduction. And so it’s enough to really give an idea of what war without glory is and what really happens on the battlefield within one soldier’s psyche and amongst the amongst the men amongst the boys and men who were fighting that the dynamics of that as well. And that’s once what the story I just told you is probably the longest day that I go into because I go into that. Story in detail. One reason is that my father earned a silver star for that going over and getting the boat and coming back but he would never talk about it’s one of the first questions I asked him when I started talking is, please tell me about your silver star. Because he had a plaque of it on his wall, but over his desk, his home office desk, he always had it framed. And he would say he wouldn’t talk about it, but he would say he didn’t do anything different that day than any other soldier did every single day. It was no different than anything anyone else did. And he doesn’t know why he got it, but he kept it in the memory of all of them and what they did.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing and for writing his story and documenting his story because It’s those stories of that generation that so many have been lost, I think. Not documented. Again, I think it’s absolutely somewhat of a miracle that he live to age ninety four. Right? Ninety four?
Becky Ellis: Ninety six. Ninety six. Ninety six. Yeah. Yeah.
That’s just he was tough, my dad. You know? And I I talked to him a lot about survival and surviving and the things we survived. And he said to me, you know, Becky, the human will to survive is astounding. He said, it is there there is such a strong will to survive inside the human spirit. And I think that’s what kept him alive that whole time. That and a lot of good luck. You know?
Victoria Volk: Did he spend a lot? Oh, go ahead.
Becky Ellis: Well, he also took really good care of himself, I would say, physically, emotionally, and mentally. It’s a whole another story. You know, you mentioned about him being a doctor and he was a doctor and back in the fifties when he became a doctor, everyone was a GP. So he was a surgeon and an OB and he was all with things. And my mom says, he was one of the best diagnosticians that she ever met. She was a nurse for her whole career. And I think that he he read constantly in the, you know, the medical journals and he was always up on different things. And when he developed prostate cancer, given the man with such a strong well power, he completely changed his diet. And he had no problem doing things like that. And when I was four thirteen, he stopped drinking. And one day, he just stopped. And that was the end of it. And he never drank again after that. He had one small relapse. His his wife at the time Actually, I give her a lot of credit because she said, this is it. I’m leaving if you don’t stop drinking. And so he stopped. And he had one tiny relapse I don’t know, within that year, but then that was the end of it, for the next, what, fifty years he never drank again. Through the very strong well power as well.
Victoria Volk: So even though I stopped drinking, that didn’t change, like that anger, that seat with her. What was it that was still being expressed from him? That, like, how did he show up then? In his life after he stopped drinking?
Becky Ellis: Well, he felt much more safe to me after he stopped drinking. But he was still combating PTSD. The war never left my father. He left the war, but it never left him. And he was still unpredictable. He was he still put us in dangerous situations. And when I asked him, when he was eighty nine is when he started talking to me. He came to my home in Portland, Oregon where I live. And he asked me if we had any issues to clear up. I know. I think he thought that I was gonna say we’re fine. Look around. I have a beautiful home. I have great kids. I go on great make it look around. Everything’s wonderful. But I thought this is my chance. I wanna know about the war. I wanna know about all this trauma we’ve been through. And so that’s when he started talking to me about it. So he was still in his later years unpredictable. I didn’t really know how he was gonna show up sometimes. And when we started talking, we talked, you know, for until until his the last year of his life, and we talked constantly about he would say, oh, there’s one more thing I forgot to tell you. It’s really important you need to know this or you need to know that. And I had the opportunity during that time to talk to him about my childhood and process a lot of that with him. And one of the things that I had asked him was Why did you do some of the things with us? If I put your grandchildren, my daughters, and that those situations, you would be curious with me. And he explained that he put himself in dangerous situations after the war to continue to prove to himself that he could survive. And he put the people he loved in those situations too to continue to prove to himself that we would survive. Because he was constantly in fear of our survival. So he would, you know, try to make us as tough as we could possibly be. He did things like, had me get my teeth drilled without Novocaine as a child. So I would be tough so I could handle things. And stuff like that. It was the survival mechanism. And I think his will to survive was incredibly strong.
Victoria Volk: I once read that, like, children who experience trauma and and things and probably even adults if they’ve experienced trauma you know, you can kinda get attracted to trauma or scary situations or put yourself in those situations in order to it’s almost to, like, not relive, but hone those skills of survival or hone those skills of of, yeah, I think survival. And so when you say that, that’s not that doesn’t sound unusual to me. Just knowing what are you thinking about grief and trauma?
Becky Ellis: Right. I think that’s I think we practice things that we think we need to know. Where I wish we were practicing compassion and grieving instead. And and I know we are now, and I know I am now. And I’m glad I’ve kind of gotten over that hump of being attracted to trauma, being attracted to adventure. I mean, when I was in college, I went to UC Berkeley and was on the ski team, and I had no problem jumping off of cornices. I wouldn’t do that now. You know, and I see the I see the risk taker in me that I was. I was also careful. You know, I was a very calculated risk taker. I said, I can see that.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned your dad started to talk to you and he kind of initiated this opening up at age eighty nine, was that before or after his diagnosis of prostate cancer?
Becky Ellis: It was about ten years after.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So it’s almost as if he had, like, this premonition of, well, I suppose he’s eighty nine, like, how much time do I have left? Like, he he I think he just you know, do you think he really just wanted to unburden himself and maybe give you what he felt you needed to?
Becky Ellis: Well, I asked him what he was doing. I said, what are you doing, dad? Are you making the rounds? Are you trying to clear up old business? And he I and I reminded him, I said, don’t forget. You promised you were gonna outlive all of us because that he would always say that. No. Don’t worry about me. I’m an outlive ball. You. And I think my father’s mortality was always with him. I don’t think you can go to war and not be confronted with your mortality constantly. But I also think that he didn’t really believe in his mortality because he had survived so long. And I think that finally caught up with him. I’m not sure. I don’t know exactly. People ask me that a lot, and it’s funny that I don’t have a factual answer because that’s a question I didn’t ask. I didn’t say why now, really. I kind of did. I kind of asked, but I didn’t really dig into the depths of that. Why now? I think I felt so grateful that he was finally talking. I didn’t want I it didn’t occur to me as why now. It just felt like the right time, I think. I it felt like he was ready. And it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy to get him to start talking. He told me when I said I wanna know about the war. He said, all you need to know about the war is my feet were frozen for a hundred and seventy two days. And I said, I’m sure there’s more dad. And back and forth we went, and I think that these conversations are really hard to get started. And these deeper conversations of sharing our deeper selves, they’re they’re hard to get started. And they take time and they take drawing out And we went back and forth for a couple hours at my kitchen table while we ate our tuna sandwich, and he finally started to talk. So I do think I do think patience is really required when we want to. Process with someone else or understand someone else more deeply.
And persistence. Patients and persistence.
Victoria Volk: The parent that you were before these conversations versus the parent after? How do you think that shifted things for you?
Becky Ellis: That’s a great question. I mentioned that I I thought my dad said or or I I said that I thought my dad would think everything was fine, and I would say we don’t have any issues. We’re fine. Look around. I thought that I had escaped my childhood. And I realized in the process that I had been hiding from it, that I hadn’t really escaped it at all, that I had carefully curated this life. As an escape from it, but it was really like a bunker and I was hiding from my life. And I have a lot of regret about role modeling that for my daughters. My father raised me in his likeness they say veteran father warrior daughter. And I think in a lot of ways, that’s true. And I can be very competent strident, capable, and assertive. And knowing that about me, you wouldn’t think that I didn’t have a voice because I can perform as a very strong woman, but I really wasn’t voicing that person you asked me about at the beginning, that five year old inside me, she had no voice in my life. And while there were times when I’d go to model in in domestic issues, I didn’t really have my voice who I was I was hiding from myself, and I have a lot of regret about role modeling that for my children. And after going through the process. And my process included talking with my father and writing my memoir, and there was so much grief that was processed in those in that time. I feel like sometimes I even grieve the person I was before that whole process started. Because she gets her life sometimes more easily, not more joyfully or more fully, but more easily than I do now sometimes. Right? I mean, once we process everything. I think we’re much deeper feelers and deeper thinkers and all of that. And and we I speak for myself and living my life much more fully and not hiding from it, but it’s scary. You know? I talk about living an openhearted life, and that takes work. That takes work every single day. And it’s hard and it takes courage and all of those things. So sometimes I grieve who I was before this whole process began for me. And I think my children absolutely have seen a shift and my relationship with them has changed. And I’ve learned how to have the deep messy complicated conversations where we can understand each other. And they can see me for my experience and understand me better for the parent I am. And I can see them for their experience and understand them better for the childhood they had and not the one that I had. Because I think for a while I was putting my own childhood experience on them, but they didn’t have my childhood experience. They don’t know what it’s like to get your teeth drilled without Nova King. You know, thank goodness they don’t know. So I was kind of mothering from a place of that they had experienced some of the trauma I had when they hadn’t. So we’re able to have those complicated conversations now and I feel like I I see them for for who they are.
Not for how I was. That makes sense?
Victoria Volk: No. It does, completely. I resonate with that too.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You had talked about you mentioned the word regret and did your dad ever share any of, like, what his greatest regret was? Or I imagine he had probably many, but any of that he shared outright with you?
Becky Ellis: Was it really a man that talked about that, to be honest? I can’t I think he had so much deep regret and grief for the things that he couldn’t control. And I don’t think he looked at life as regrets. And one of the last things he said to me was, We all did the best we could. I I think he really believed that. I believe that. I believe that we’re all doing the best that we can do with the tools and the skills and the situations we’ve been given. And I think because he really believed that, that he wasn’t really filled with too much regret.
Victoria Volk: One of my recent episodes. It was episode two zero two with Yvonne Caputo. Her dad was a World War II vet and she had talked about how her dad opening up to her about his experiences in the war and things. It was the catalyst for them to really have these deeper conversations and and particularly for him his end of life. Was that the same experience for you?
Becky Ellis: Absolutely. It was. Because I was so guarded toward him, you know, I I think every little girl and every woman wants their father’s love so deeply. And so I felt like I had a loving relationship with my father and I I fought for that probably every day of my life, but I was so guarded against him that when we started talking And when we started talking, it was not we didn’t go deep fast. It was, you know, he rattled off. DAF Sergeant, First battalion company, see four hundred fifteenth regiment, a hundred and fourth infantry division. But he said it hard and fast like he had said it at thousand times before. And then I had to stop right there and say, wait a second. I don’t even know what you just said. I don’t know what that means.
And so we talked about kind of the surface level stuff of how armies are divided, and how many men were really in his unit. And when he told me his mortality rate, I was like, hang on, do the math for me. I don’t understand what how you get to three hundred percent if you’re alive and all that kind of stuff. And then we started going after a time into the deeper places. And it would be a curiosity of mine and wanting to know more about a person or experience and trying to fully understand it. But I wasn’t sharing my experience at all with him. I was just taking and listening and holding space. But then after he started getting into some of the deeper things, I started dropping my guard, and I started sharing my deeper self with him. And so him opening up was definitely the catalyst for me being able to share my deeper stories and my deeper questions with him because I was not going to when he said, do we have any issues? I was not going to start with, yes, I have this issue because I expected And and honestly, I received when I first would bring things up. He would say things like, oh, come on. You weren’t neglect. Did. You you you know, you had the most fun of anybody, you know. And this was his narrative.
Like, so not really. Like, let’s let’s talk about this. Like, this was my experience, you know. And and he defended against that, you know. You know, oh, you kids have the run of the house kind of a thing. You tore around the basement, you know, that kind of stuff. And and we did get to the deeper places. I think he did have an understanding of my me and my story in the end.
Victoria Volk: Did he exit this life as he wanted? No.
Becky Ellis: I was with my father when he passed away, and I had the privilege to be with another friend when she passed away. So I’ve been with two people. And I’ve had other friends pass away. And someone once said to me, we die the way we live. And I believe that is the case with my father. I believe that he exited the way he lived, hanging on to the very end, fighting it all the way. Fighting for his life until his last prep. I don’t know if that’s how he wanted it. The the setup for how he passed away, which was at home. Is what he definitely insisted on. It wasn’t about my father wanted. It’s what my father got. What my father wanted he got. That’s the way things went. He refused to go into any kind of assisted care of any kind and he he passed away in his home and that is what he wanted. But as far as that deeper place of surrender, I don’t know. I don’t know if he talked there. See if I said talking in the last couple days of his life. He entered that phase of death where he stopped talking. And I hope he found some peace in that.
Victoria Volk: How has this changed? How you’re approaching the relationship? How is the writing experience? And subsequent passing of your father changed how you approach the relationship with your mother?
Becky Ellis: My mother’s been super supportive of my writing all along. I think she’s read every draft of my story. And her of my book. And I wanted her to be a part of it, and she’s definitely a primary character in it. While she wasn’t for a while, I was given advice from an editor that said Even when one parent has passed away, they are still a part of the story and you have to make them a central figure in your story because they are a central figure in your life even when they’re gone.
And so she became a significant part of my story. And I think that he is a person who is sort of a supportive person to many people. She was a nurse. And she played the role of nurse in her life also. Kind of that very important person, but that doesn’t get a lot of credit. For how strong she had to be to endure what she endured because my father really went to battle with her And I think that having her story be read now is exposing her in ways that she didn’t anticipate. And those ways are that people are seeing her now. Her family, there’s so many things she never even told her. Family. And I think she’s being seen now for what she went through, and I think she’s feeling the compassion of others. I she came to a book reading I did in the San Francisco area in Oakland. And reader went up to her and said, you are the hero of this story. And I wanna thank you for that. And it was so deeply touching to me. So I think she’s coming around to realizing what an important person she really was. In my life. I’m sure she felt like she was, but she had was in a really hard position, and I think she’s being acknowledged for that. Now, and I think that’s probably deeply meaningful to her. I feel like there’s there’s something that I have learned that we all wanna be seen and heard. So I think my mother feels seen and heard now, but even more than being seen and heard, I think we wanna be felt. And the experience with my father, you know, it’s that I feel you, feeling me, when we are felt, when we can feel someone feeling us, I think that is where the magic happens and that is where healing truly happens. It’s not just being seen and heard. That’s one thing. But being felt is something completely different. And I think my mother feels felt now. I think her experience feels felt by others. To her. And I think that is healing.
Victoria Volk: It’s that well of compassion and empathy that pours out.
Becky Ellis: Mhmm. Did
Victoria Volk: she ever go on to find love again?
Becky Ellis: She did. She’s been married for, I don’t know, over forty years now. Yeah. She didn’t marry someone that much unlike my father. Oh, that’s a little interesting, but she’s married. Yes. Maybe another book. Maybe.
Victoria Volk: Different kind of book. So out of all of this experience. And, I mean, we didn’t even get to the other grief experiences you’ve experienced in your life because what I know about grief is it’s like luggage. If it stacks up and we drag it with us, And if you’re open to sharing it, you know, those other experiences, please do. But, oh, go ahead.
Becky Ellis: Well, there’s so much, you know, grieving is such a central part of the human experience. And we feel like it’s so intimate and so unique and personal. That I think we try to do it alone. And I think it’s so much more healing and powerful when we can share it with others, which is why I appreciate the work that that you’re doing so much. And I feel like there’s so much to creep in life, you know. I feel like, you know, the paradox of there is no light without darkness. And there is no joy without grief. And the more grief you feel, I feel like, the more joy you can so feel. And so when I say there’s so much to grieve in life, it’s not that oh, life is sad and horrible and everything’s darkness. There is so much light and joy and life too. And holding both of those, I think is is where I wanna be. And that I think is mental health is when you can hold both of those. But there’s so much degree even about the loss of my childhood. And the, you know, I grew up way too fast. So many of us grow up way too fast. And the idea of grieving that, I think is important. You know, like, I think grief is so important to do and feel so that you can feel the joy on the other end of that grief. And I often grieve like the woman and person I could have become if only. You know, and then fill in the blank. If only I had a father who, this or that, if only I had a supportive child If only I had the opportunity for these things as a child, you know, there’s so many if only as I could go in and I often grieve like I wonder who I could have become if I didn’t have all this trauma in my childhood. That’s one that I still work with, you know. Because there are a lot of trauma triggers out there. But but, you know, those are some that I think about about this in terms of grief and and what? And I feel like, you know, I feel like our culture doesn’t doesn’t address grief or death very well because grief is really the death of anything. Right? It’s the death of the childhood or the opportunity for to be this kind of person or whatever. And a a friend of mine once taught me, she said, you know, Becky Flowers or a deaf practice. I said, oh, say more about that. She said, well, when you receive flowers, they’re going to die. And what kind of person are you? Are you the kind of person that throws out the whole book pay when a couple start wilting? Or do you take them out one by one as they die? And what do you do with them? You know? You just toss the whole bunch in the trash. And I’m like, wow. Like, that’s kind of amazing. So now whenever I get flowers, I use it as a duck practice in a beautiful way. You know? I don’t cry over them and spend days mourning the death of the flowers, but I acknowledge that this is the process, death is human experience. And it’s something that we’re all going to get to experience at some point. And it’s an opportunity, I think. I think we need these opportunities to practice.
Victoria Volk: What’s interesting that you bring that up? The flowers when I was going through my when I first started my grief processing journey, I started to collect plants. I’m now a hoarder of plants. Why? Because plants don’t die? Plants don’t die. I mean, they can. I mean, if you’re not gonna care for and nurture them. Right? But it’s something to nurture and care for. And I think that can also be a practice in giving love to something that maybe you’re struggling to give in other aspects of your life. So I think that was that’s the significance of plants for me.
Becky Ellis: That’s beautiful. Some of my plants die. In fact, I’d love to garden. And sometimes I get the plant that’s not supposed to survive in my climate, but I’m determined, but I’m gonna keep it alive anyway, and I don’t. And so it’s a reminder though that we need nurturing and care and the right environment to survive.
Right? We can’t survive in all environments. We just can’t.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. We’re not built to. You know, there there is going to be these environmental things that will challenge our ability to thrive, right, just like plants.
Becky Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. There are environmental things that challenge her ability to survive. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You kind of alluded to it already, what grief has taught you, but is there anything else you would like to elaborate on that?
Becky Ellis: I think grief has taught me to embrace it, to embrace the depth of it, and and to go to the places that it takes me and to be open to what it’s going to teach me. To embrace it and feel it fully. It’s not something I think we I think we move through it. I don’t think we ever moved beyond it. And I I did say I think it’s part of the human condition. And I think a lot of us try to look away from that, look away from you know, the darker parts of the human condition. And I think that’s avoidant. And I think it blocks us from feeling some of the best parts and experiencing some of the best parts of the human condition too. My my effort is to live it all fully.
Victoria Volk: On that note, what’s next for you? What are you looking forward to?
Becky Ellis: You know, every day, I look forward to the conversations I can have where we share our deeper stories. And what’s next is me sharing some of that with an an ongoing format. I mean, sharing some of that with the people in my community. I’m I’m starting a newsletter authors are told to do this, but I thought I don’t even know what to say to people. Honestly, I know it sounds a little bit loudicrist, but sometimes I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what people want to know from me. I don’t know what I know, you know. And so it’s the thing that readers keep asking me about is how did you have this conversation walk us through it? Because I really wanna talk to my mom and the only thing she’s gonna talk to me about is the broken furnace or I really wanna talk to my dad or my brother and he won’t stop talking about football. And so I’ve been in those situations and plenty of them. And so I’ve done a lot of research and done a lot of exploring and discovering on how do we get to those deeper places with our neighbors and our friends and the people who we’re not well known to, but we’re around all the time. How do we do that? And so I’ve started a newsletter where I’m gonna share the deep conversations that I’m having. And one of them is one I had with my mom on her ninety fourth birthday. And there’s a that’s what’s immediately next for me.
Yeah.
Victoria Volk: When you were talking about, you know, see if I can recall my thought that I had that escaped my brain and as I was listening to you. But on kind of the the threat of regret. Is there a part of you that wishes that you could have had that conversation and maybe open yourself sooner to trust me, I believe that things happen in divine timing. And but at the same time, that doesn’t change how we feel. Right? And do you have any regret or wishing that those conversations would have happened sooner with your dad that
Becky Ellis: There are a few things that I’m absolutely certain about, but this is one of them. And the answer is yes. I wish I could have. I I end the first part of my book, my childhood with when I come back I studied abroad when I was a sophomore in college and after my study abroad in London, I traveled through Europe. And while my father said, don’t you step foot in Germany, it’s not safe there. I, of course, went to Germany. And I guess it’s gonna do what I wanted as a twenty year old. And when I was in Germany, I met an SS officer and talk about divine timing. And It was such a profound experience, but I was with two girlfriends, and he came to our table and sat down with us in a German Brewhouse, and he wanted to talk to us. And he cried. It’s almost like he was flash forwarding for me what I was gonna get to do with my dad fifty or not fifty, whatever, thirty years later. And he confessed his his he talked about his regret. He confessed his not the acts that he did, but the his participation in the war. And he suggested that we go to docile. And so the next day, my girlfriends and I went to docile. And anyone who’s been to a concentration camp museum. Well, it’s a very moving experience. And when I was there, I thought, oh, god, this is why my dad wouldn’t talk about it. This is what? How could he talk about this? How can anybody talk it? It’s so horrible. It’s so hard to process and feel and talk about. But when I came back, I had a determination that I was going to find out if this is why he wouldn’t talk about it. And I thought this is my opening to talk about it. Like, now I have an understanding. Right? As a twenty year old, I thought, oh, now I get it. Because my father’s division did liberate Nordhuizen concentration camps. So while it wasn’t doco, it was a horrible experience for anybody that was there. And I thought, oh, this is this is my opening. I can I can talk to him now? But within seconds, So I tried. You know, I walked in the door, I haven’t seen him in months, and, you know, this is what I wanted to do, and I had this agenda, and I thought this is what I was gonna do. And I really wanted it, but he shut me down absolutely and immediately. In the way that he could shut someone down, which was, are you trying to ruin this beautiful day? You know? And that piercing look and that steely cold. I’d say he my father is like a glacier that I was trying to crack open with a pick xerist. Teaspoon or something, you know. But but I wish that we could have had the conversation back then. I wish I could have gone through this process back then. That’s one of the things, like, I wonder who I would have been if only. I wonder how I would have spent the last thirty years. And I also believe in divine timing like you do. And so I accept the fact that it happened when it was supposed to happen. And I appreciate that.
Victoria Volk: I’ve been to taco
Becky Ellis: to Cadia. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. This has been a lovely conversation. Much of it I resonate with and and I wish I would have read your book before we chatted. Is there anything that you feel like you didn’t get to share that you think that is on your heart or that you feel would be beneficial to listeners.
Becky Ellis: I don’t think so. I just encourage people to out the conversation, say the thing that they’re not saying. I think most people have something that they’re not saying, a deeper part of themselves that they’re not sharing. And I think it’s important that we start doing that with each other in safe places.
Victoria Volk: It’s like we can hold the fear of how the person will respond, but we can also have the courage that if they don’t respond how we wish, Now it’s releasing the expectations. Right?
Becky Ellis: Right.
Victoria Volk: So it does take two to have a deep conversation, and it might just be that one person isn’t ready. And like you said, to accept that when it will happen is is perfectly when it will happen is perfect timing, right, of when it will happen and to accept that
Becky Ellis: patience and persistence. Patients and persistence. Yeah. Yeah. Where
Victoria Volk: can people find you if they would like to connect with you? And where can they find your book? All those things?
Becky Ellis: I think the easiest place is probably on my website, which is becky ellis dot net. And that’s kind of a portal for all the social media stuff and my book can be found where at bookstores and e retailers Amazon bookshop dot org, those kinds of places. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Well, I will link to that in the show notes. And thank you again for being my guest.
Becky Ellis: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I loved our conversation. I really do appreciate the work you’re doing.
Victoria Volk: And thank you for writing Little Avalanches.
Becky Ellis: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
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SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week, I had the privilege of hearing from Ed Owens, vice president of the Grief Recovery Institute, in a deeply moving episode of the Grieving Voices podcast.
As Vice President of the Grief Recovery Institute, Ed’s narrative isn’t just about loss; it’s about discovery—the kind that reshapes lives. From his military background to law enforcement tenure, he was schooled in emotional compartmentalization until life delivered its harshest lesson through his greatest loss: the death of his 3-year-old son, Ryan.
This wasn’t just a turning point for Ed; it was an unraveling—a catalyst that compelled him to seek healing beyond traditional avenues. The Grief Recovery Method didn’t merely offer solace; it provided clarity and purpose, revealing insights into male grief often shrouded by societal expectations.
Ed challenges us to look beyond labels like “toxic masculinity,” advocating for empathy over division. He sees our shared struggles as conduits for unity—emotional commonalities that can bridge ideological divides if only we dare to acknowledge them.
His message resonates with profound simplicity: Recognize your pain, own your choices, and rewrite your future—not as isolated chapters but as part of a collective human experience yearning for connection.
Join us in this conversation that goes beyond mere words into actions that echo across lifetimes. Let’s create ripples together, capable of washing away walls built from unspoken sorrows.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
- Website
- Email: edowens[at]griefrecoverymethod[dot]com
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Unpacking the Journey Through Grief: Insights from Ed Owens and the Power of Emotional Healing
Grief is a universal human experience, yet it remains one of our society’s most misunderstood and neglected areas. In an enlightening episode of the Grieving Voices podcast, we are offered a window into this complex world through the personal and professional lens of Ed Owens, Vice President of the Grief Recovery Institute. This blog post aims to expand on that conversation by exploring key themes discussed in the podcast and offering additional context and insights.
From Compartmentalization to Confrontation
Ed Owens’s background in military service and law enforcement epitomizes careers where emotional compartmentalization is often seen as necessary for survival. Yet, this approach can leave individuals ill-prepared for personal tragedies. It was only after facing his own profound loss—the death of his young son—that Owens realized how much unaddressed grief he carried.
The Turning Point
Owens’s journey underscores a critical point: sometimes it takes a catalytic event to force us out of our emotional defenses. For many people like him, traditional coping mechanisms—medication, substance use, or even therapy—may fall short when it comes to healing deep-seated emotional wounds.
The transformative moment came when Owens encountered the Grief Recovery Method (GRM). Unlike other interventions he tried previously, GRM enabled him to process his emotions constructively—a significant breakthrough leading not just toward recovery but also toward helping others navigate their grief.
Key Takeaways from GRM
Through GRM training, two revelations stood out:
- Lessons Learned: Every life event teaches us something invaluable; recognizing these lessons allows growth amidst pain.
- Self-Worth: Understanding that you are deserving of love—and have been loved—is crucial for self-acceptance.
Societal Reflections: Male Grief Under Scrutiny
The discussion with Owens brings attention to male grief—a topic frequently overlooked due to societal expectations surrounding masculinity. Terms like “toxic masculinity” can inadvertently stigmatize men’s emotional expression rather than encouraging healthy vulnerability.
Impact on Suicide Rates
One cannot overlook how societal pressures contribute significantly to higher suicide rates among men—an alarming trend suggesting that failing to address male-specific grief has dire consequences.
Overcoming Division Through Shared Humanity
In today’s polarized climate, divisions run deep across political lines and social strata; however, at our core lies an inherent ability for empathy based on shared experiences—especially those involving loss or trauma. By tapping into this shared humanity rather than focusing on what separates us could be instrumental in fostering unity within communities torn apart by conflict or misunderstanding.
Call To Action: Embrace Empathy Beyond Differences
Owen’s message culminates in a powerful call-to-action urging listeners not only recognize but embrace our commonality as humans who feel deeply regardless sociopolitical divides—to build bridges instead connections understanding thereby enriching both individual lives broader community alike .
Practical Steps Towards Healing
Here are some actionable recommendations gleaned from Owen’s insights:
- Engage with Your Past: Reflect upon your losses; acknowledge them without judgment.
- Seek Supportive Communities: Whether through organizations like GRIM or local support groups—it helps share stories find solace together .
- Educate Yourself About Emotional Health: Awareness around mental health resources can empower you take charge your own healing journey .
Ultimately , while each person ‘s path through sorrow unique , embracing tools such as those provided by institutions like GRI offers hope transformation . As we learn more about effective ways handle emotion pain —and encourage others do same—we pave way healthier future all involved .
For anyone seeking further information assistance regarding methods discussed here please don’t hesitate reach out directly via email at [email protected] visit official websites mentioned above . Let ‘s walk together towards brighter tomorrow—one where every voice heard heart mended .
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Ed Owens. And before I go on my own spiel. I’ll just have you introduce yourself since I don’t actually have an official bio for you. Okay. Thank you for being here.
Ed Owens: Oh, it’s it’s great to be here, Victoria. I’m super thrilled. I’m looking forward to doing this with you for a little while. And thank you for the invitation. So folks for all of you listening. Thanks for tuning in. Obviously, these podcasts can’t happen without those of you that come back and listened and and tune in and We appreciate you. So my name is Ed Owens. I’m currently the vice president of the grief recovery institute. Which is kind of primetime prepayment method.
Now that’s just my current stuff. My life has had before all this. I had absolutely nothing to do with emotions. Emotions were not something I was comfortable with and helping people with recent loss was, like, not even on my radar. Very briefly, I had a dual career going on for most of my life. I was in the US military and would eventually retire at almost twenty one years from the Air Force reserves. Talk about more about that if you like to later. And then on the civilian side, I was in law enforcement for twenty three. So York City County State and with the feds for twenty three years. So I had this dual career going on. I’ve got professional background education also except none of it prepared me in life for dealing with emotional pain, brief, drama, whatever Trevor you wanna use, it’s all the same folks. And Yeah. But my path will eventually lead me here. So I’m a trainer with the Institute. I work my way up to a vice president of the Institute, and that’s now what I get to do. I get a look at reading people. All of this planet. And I’m just thrilled to be here.
Victoria Volk: And I am so grateful for the Griffin Care Institute and for John James and this beautiful body of work that he’s created because it changed my life. And I am certified as an advanced grief recovery method specialist at the Early Recovery Institute. So thank you for your contribution as Vice President, which must have been living under a rock because I did not know that. You were the vice president. So congratulations on that appointment. And obviously, you’re amount of great service and much service. So what was the loss that brought you to grief recovery?
Ed Owens: Sure. That’s a great place to start. Like I said, like, this is not something I ever thought I’d be doing. Whether it was military, you know, law enforcement, either one. Those were not jobs where we embrace emotions.
Right? Emotions can actually get in the way of getting the mission done or, you know, doing whatever we have to do in that terrible moment where you’re called to help somebody. Right? That’s not the time to be processing or dealing with emotions. So both of my careers taught me to compartmentalize and I just got really good at it. Both of my careers taught me to compartmentalizing and stuffing down all of that. And I could focus on what was in front of me, whether that was get the mission done or that was a call or whatever. And that’s not to say that life wasn’t happening that whole time. Right? Like all of us, we experience an enormous amount of loss events in our life, changes in familiar patterns of behavior in our lives that don’t feel good. Like, we got a lot of conflicting feelings around it. Like everybody else, I’m not unique, but I put it all in a box. Right? Or I’m all in a box. And I just did what society taught us. Right? I used all the same tools that we all were taught. To try and deal with stuff, keep busy, you know, grieve alone, all that type of things. I did all of that stuff. Right? And there’s a bunch of other stuff I’m not proud of either. I mean, like, I got into the bottle a lot, you know, especially in the military. And all of those losses kept accumulating. But to answer your question, the loss that brought me to the final, like, it all worked until it didn’t work. I’m not saying it worked well, but it was all working and I was able to survive life right, until the death of my three year old son. And that loss his death broke open. I would say broke open Pandora’s box all the stuff that I had been trying to carry around forever. And I was completely over with with the death of the man. And again, it’s not about getting into the details or anything else, but nothing I’d ever done in my life worked. Everything came rushing forward at the same time.
You know, world spun out of control. It spilled out into every relationship in my life. It literally felt like I was drowning. Something’s going on. And everybody told me, Victoria, oh, it’s a life sentence of pain. You have to learn how to live your new normal Right? And you’re never going to get over it and you never go you know, you’re gonna have to learn how to live with this and survive for the rest of your life. And as somebody who, like, with my careers and everything else, like, we need, I have to just survive. Now that’s not you you figure out a way to deal with this. So I went on a mission for five years to stumble around. Always looking and everyone kept telling me, I’m not gonna find anything, you know, or on one hand. You’re just gonna have to deal with this pain. Or on the other hand, but if you tried this, if you tried this, if you tried this, if you thought about this, like and I’m like, hey, I haven’t done that. I’ll give it a shot. Nothing actually worked. I’d might feel better for a day, maybe a couple of days, but it didn’t do anything with the emotional pain that I was carrying. And one day, somebody suggested Have you ever heard of degrees of carbonate? Like, nope. What’s that? I mean, because, like, seriously, like, I I did all things. Doctors put me on pills, didn’t like them. I felt worse. I I felt the first time, like, that must be what feels like be close to being suicidal. I’m like, I’m not taking those anymore. I did alcohol and I’m the pain, you name, and I did it.
And all the other stuff. Well, so lo and behold, my nope. So I had lunch. But somebody who’s a grief scrubber med specialist named by Russell, years ago. I’m like, wow. This I’m like, what I heard. Went home, looked it up. Oh, there’s certification training coming up in ten days. Now, I had no intention of being a specialist. I’m like, but I wanna go through this and they talked about, well, yeah, you can just do the personal work. So I signed myself and my partner up for it. I’m like, if I’m going, you’re going, well, let’s just for you. It’s not for me. I don’t need that. I’m like, well, if I’m going here, Helen, you introduced me to this, you know.
She’s actually her mom who’s suspicious. In all transparency. That’s my partner. That’s not. You interviewed her a couple weeks ago, I think. So we went together. And it was the last thing that I ever tried and the first and only thing that ever worked. And it still works to this day. And I’ve been able to use that in all of the other lessons that I’ve dealt with in my life. Go back and deal with, complete, and finish what’s unfinished. Hence, never stop working.
Victoria Volk: What was your greatest aha in the method that just surprised you? When you first if you can think back to that time.
Ed Owens: Sure. I can’t. I can’t. I had a couple of two big ahas for me. Number one was the realization that my son’s life and death top me more than I would have ever taught him as a dad. Wow. And so that was super powerful. That awareness. And the feeling. Right? Just the feeling around even his his life was a gift. And as painful as his death was, it was a gift in my life as well. And most people would be like, oh my god. How could someone say that? About the death of the child.
And I’m like, I can’t say that because it’s allowed me to become a better his example to me and what he taught me and what I’ve learned through this whole thing has allowed me to be a better dad to my opportunity. That’s allowed me to be a better human being and to show up in the world differently. And I attribute that all to that experience coupled with the method guiding me through it. The other thing was after he died, I had a lot of misplaced feelings of responsibility. Right? I was beating myself up. Like, I didn’t think I want the military at the top. I didn’t keep my son safe. I failed to protect him. I’m not much of a man. I’m not much of a dead. I’m not being all the things, right, that I was beating myself up around. And going through the process, you know, without giving it away to all of our listeners who haven’t been there yet. But part of it is we’ve taken honest, really raw, deep, honest, and mostly look at that relationship between our And when we’re doing that, we if anything pops in our mind or on our heart more importantly, right? We we included. And I had this memory, and I didn’t know what it was about, but I was able to discover what it was about. The memory was rocking my son. Every night, I had rock hit me in our rocking chair before I put him to bed and stuff. And he would look up at me and I’d see myself reflected in his eyes. And it was just it was one of my favorite memories when it looks like one of our favorite little routines that ended. And I always blamed myself. Right? I would really I mean, that was the worst of it. It was, like, all of the things that we should have been better or different, or if I could go back and change this x y z, this, you know, all that stuff, like, in the y’s okay. But to realize, Ryan only looked at me with love and aberration and, you know, and he looked at me with unconditional. And I didn’t believe after he died that I was worthy of love. I was worthy of committing. And so to realize that I am the man that I saw reflected in my son’s thoughts. That I am, that person and dad that, you know, that I can accept love. Love for myself and love for others. That was huge.
Victoria Volk: What do you think is the state of I I listened to a podcast recently that was all about the state of men in boys today. Talking it went from suicidal rates. It went from talking about the importance of marriage. For men talked about, like, even divorce, for example, is huge for a man because if And if they’re not in a relationship or they’re not committed with somebody, and they’re not a father, what’s their place? Right? And so the whole podcast was talking about these different aspects of of, well, why is the suicide rate becoming so high among men? And how can we address these various topics? And talking about like the, you know, the empowerment of women and how so many women went from depending, right, on financially and economically on their a counterpart and to support them. And how that has shifted and changed and the impact and the ripples that has had on men in our society today. And so I’m just curious If you can speak as a man, just speak to what your thoughts are on on all of on I know you haven’t listened to the pod. Maybe I should’ve sent it to you beforehand. I didn’t I just thought of that now. I should’ve sent it to you beforehand. I’ll send it to you after and I’ll link it to you. Yeah. Because I think it’s an excellent episode I’m not even sure why I listened to it, but it really had me thinking about all of this. Anyway, what are your thoughts on The state of men and boys today?
Ed Owens: Yeah, that’s a complex issue. We could spend definitely more than an hour on that. Just alone, but high level thoughts. Right? Let’s walk it backwards.
Right, from that place where there’s so much suicide. And that’s and that’s an issue across the board, right, especially in western cultures. It’s a massive issue. Right? And everything we’ve ever been doing to try and prevent suicide, it’s a little wind here and there, but we are not stopping the trajectory. Like, every we need to do something different. Vote can’t keep doubling and tripling down and putting more resources into approaches that have not changed where the trajectory of this issue. One of those things is people get to a certain point, generally get to your point. But I think we need to walk it from that. The point where everyone is aware to how did we get here? There’s a quote from the Veterans Administration at least years years ago what veterans is. I don’t choose suicide because I won’t hurt anyone. I choose suicide because I don’t know what to do with the pain. And that is a really, I think, an important way for us to frame how do we deal with this issue of suicide regardless of the reason. These people get to a point where they are so overwhelmed. They’ve carried so much stuff they’ve put into their little backpacks, their little emotional storage tanks. Everything they’ve tried doesn’t work. And it’s something, you know, people who are hurting lack the courage to wanna feel better. They don’t. They’re always trying. Even if it’s not a smart choice, they’re still trying to do something. But they’re adding tools. So the first place to really deal with this right away fast is how can we get more people the right tools that will help them have another option that doesn’t include taking their life. Because we it’s gonna be a harder thing. They’re both hard thing. Like, teaching people these tools and helping them to trust them is is a hard sell. And the bigger societal issue. Let’s walk it back. Let’s talk about it from a guy’s perspective. At least from my perspective. And yet, this is I’m one person. Right? I’m one person. There are what? I don’t know how many billions of guys on the planet. So, like, there’s gonna be other people who agree with me. There’ll be people who don’t agree with me, but this just my take on it. Right? There’s a lot of mixed messaging that’s out there in the world. There’s a lot of messaging that says to be male is to is toxic.
Right?
Victoria Volk: Podcasts even mentioned that, even that phrase alone toxic masculinity. Is Right. A terrible phrase.
Ed Owens: Right. It it is a terrible phrase. I’d say whoever created it it was evil of their intention to create that phrase. Again, we’re putting a very negative label on a half of the population of the species and saying that if you are male, you have this and therefore you are bad. Well, that message will be internalized. Like, if we introduce the younger we introduce that concept to little people, Right? That becomes part of their belief system. Who’s the greatest authority on the planet folks when we’re five years old? Mom and dad And if mom or dad well, if you know, whoever it is or society or their teacher or whoever, says, oh my god. Little Johnny, you’re a male. Nails are toxic. Nails are abusive. Nails are you know, mail energy is bad, bad, bad, bad, I mean, he’s going to believe it because he’ll take it in at a hundred percent true. And now you’ve been seeing they’re creating a situation, whether it’s Johnny or Susie who’s being told this. Johnny’s internalizing, oh, I’m that person. And Susie is internalizing and believing that Johnny’s a bad person Right? We gotta knock off the labels folks. You know, it it there’s a lot of other terms. But for this, but again, when we teach children very, very damaging concepts. At a super young age, they internalize it and believe it is a hundred percent true. I’m not surprised that the marriage rates down. I’m not surprised that all these things I mean, there’s a lot of issues. Again, like, we can spend hours on this stuff one of my degrees is is behavioral science. So, again, like, we could spend a lot of time.
Victoria Volk: Part two,
Ed Owens: Sure. Sure. But we have created a dynamic where marriage is no longer or even, like, seriously committed relationships. Like, it’s it’s not the thing. It, like, that concept is dying. In granted, societies have all been changing, maybe that’s what’s necessary. I don’t know. That’s not for me to judge. But what we do have is a lot of single parent helps. Right? For one reason or another. And there’s so much research that what is needed to help in a healthy way develop a young person’s life, trajectories, balance, all of these types of things. This is by part two. Like, part one is we’re teaching all these young people that half of the species is bad because they happen to be a male. Right? And then the other part of all this is we have and again, there’s a lot of research on this. The lack of both energies the lack of a male and female energy. Right? In in the upbringing of a child, Right? And in particular, there’s a lot of research around them. It’s the lack of a male and in certain minority populations and those types of things. The lack of that is detrimental, physically, socially life choices that you know, on criminal crime, like, the lack of that presence in a young child’s life is almost like we’re sentencing down to have a bad life of the future. And again, like, I’m not I’m not playing a finger. I’m not saying anybody’s bad at all. I’m gonna say, like, there’s any of research on this. We need to have you know, let’s say, like, it takes a whole village to reach out. Right? So, but in a whole village, it’s like there’s a lot of males and females that become positive, hopefully positive role models and examples of these sort of lives. And if we don’t have that, and we only get one half of this of the situation, of the story, or the whatever. Right? It’s not balanced. And depending on what that messaging is, you keep it toxic.
Victoria Volk: And I think as young boys in particular, would you say, and even girls, or however you identify yourself,
Ed Owens: Mhmm. If
Victoria Volk: you don’t feel that connection in community within your own environment, you’re gonna look for it somewhere. You’re gonna look for acceptance somewhere. And and vlogging somewhere
Ed Owens: Correct.
Victoria Volk: Might not be the most healthy environment conducive of someone choosing healthier choices for themselves.
Ed Owens: Right. Absolutely. I hundred percent agree with all that. And all of this mixed messaging, all these different things. The bottom line is it puts boys and girls and and women in conflict with their own human nature.
And then we could like, hey. This is the top of where you explore over. But the bottom line is is when there’s mixed messaging, there’s mix. It’s like, I’m not for anyone listening to this. Like, I am not an advocate that any one gender or the other is better than the other. I’m not an advocate that either one can or cannot do this or that. I’m not that I have one hundred percent that what is it you wanna do with your life? Alright. Let’s do it. Because we are all capable of amazing things where we are empowered, encouraged, nurtured, and loved on that path.
Absolutely. But just like empowering a young person and loving them and encouraging them and helping them can achieve great results, teaching them that this is bad, and that is wrong. All of those type of things. Like in a toxic way. And again, I’m not meaning to use that term a lot, but what we do on this topic is toxic.
It’s damaging. It’s very destructive. And a lot of people are in conflict with their own human nature on it because of the mixed messaging. They don’t know what’s true. They they’re trying to they try and force themselves to fit into a box.
The problem is that box is always changing. That that labels always change That dynamic is always changing. If you can’t go, I don’t know, a couple of months or you can’t go a month without there being something being changed. You know, or this is the new term. Stop using term spoke. Stop using label. Right? And we have to have an honest conversation that presents both sides. I used to one thing I’ve learned over the years in my career examples. There’s two sides to every story.
But the truth is always in the middle. No side when you talk to two people. No side is truth is a hundred percent. They have their their stake, their biases, their beliefs, and everything else. The truth is always in the middle. And we need to figure out where that is and that takes both sides working together to figure out what that is.
Victoria Volk: I hundred percent agree. But, you know, as we come to a conversation, we’re always going to think that our what is what we believe is the truth. Right? We perceive it as truth based on, to your point, our personal life experience.
Ed Owens: Yep. And our belief systems.
Victoria Volk: And our belief systems.
Ed Owens: Yeah. We’re responsible. Yeah. And again, like, we’re doing some some deep waters here and you can edit this out if you like. But I think that this is also part of the bigger issue we’re facing, you know, here in the United States and around a little. Like, we are so incredibly divided. And again, I’m not saying one opinion is different than another opinion. I’m not saying one’s right or wrong, one’s better than the other or less than the other. Right? I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is, we are so incredibly divided, right, across the spectrum. And for me, that’s worrisome. I mean, as a student of history, I love history and everything else, when people are divided, then they start to you know, minimize and demonize and attack each other. Right? I don’t care. I’m not picking size on anything, but when we when we do that and we see the we see the other people as less than worthy of us or that like, they’re the bad people that allows us to then dehumanize the other side. Decrease in us versus them mentality. And folks, all you gotta do is look at history anytime it’s in us versus them mentality. Similarly that results in silence, unrest, wars. Right?
Victoria Volk: It happens it happens on a micro scale in our in house Absolutely. Within family units. Is this on a bigger stage?
Ed Owens: It is. It is.
Victoria Volk: It’s just a bigger stage.
Ed Owens: But that bigger stage is also making it harder for the individuals within their own families. Exactly. Right? Because there’s so many I mean, there’s been a lot of issues that have happened in the last five years. And then we don’t need to get into the pandemic for detail.
We don’t need to get into all the stuff that’s going on. Right? Again, I’m I’m not wanting to get into different issues. I’m trying people to see the bigger picture. So, ma’am, Right?
And that bigger picture is, you know, we have, like, almost eight billion people on this planet and all eight billion of those people have their own individual unique belief systems, and people believe different things. And even if we kinda I agree with you that this is a good concept, I’m still gonna have different ways I why I think that’s a good concept. Like, we can’t even all agree on the same thing all the time. And these bigger issues are they’ve we don’t live in a vacuum. In your household or mine, like, we don’t live in a vacuum. It’s not close the doors. And our little world is kumbaya and, you know, It’s nothing but rainbows and unicorns. It is not the way this works. Right? Everything that we’re impacted by all the stuff we see over here and that comes into our family, it comes into our relationships with our friends and our neighbors, our communities, And when we’re looking at the other person and all this stuff is magnifying, you know, all of what’s going on, Of course, it it does impact those individual relationships, the ability to form close intimate bonds and form a partnership, whatever that partnership is. Again, marriage oh, there’s a million terms for all that stuff. Right? But it interferes with it. And it increases us versus them mentality, which creates more division. The more divided we are folks the more by the way, I’ll say that’s pretty lonely and isolated. But the more divided we become, the more conflict we will continue to experience. We’ve got to get to a point where we don’t see other people, in our own household, in our own family, in own neighborhood, and community, we have to get to a point where we see people consuming things. And all of us as human beings experience sweet, joyful, and wonderful things in whats. And all of us assume names, experience, pain, loss, or whatever term you wanna call it, grief, trauma, I think, again, is it? It’s pain. If it’s emotionally painful, right, or emotionally joyful, we all can do this us. What make that’s the one thing I fully believe about her that connects us as a human species. Is our capacity to feel emotions and to feel the outcome when things don’t turn out the way we hope to predict. And if we could see each other as another human having human experiences who’s also earning, we don’t have to agree. We don’t have to agree with their their all things would agree with their societal issues. We don’t have to agree with their belief systems. But if we can recognize that people are humans within we’re emotional beings. We have the capacity for this. And we can try and figure out how to connect at that level, and then I think there’s hope. There’s more of that color.
Victoria Volk: I think there’s one question that people could be asked that would unlock so much for people. And it’s when you’re disagreeing with someone or you’re finding yourself in conflict with someone asking them, what happened to
Ed Owens: you? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I think it’s simple question that when we go to the doctor and we have the aches and pains and you and I both know it’s probably grief and trauma manifest staying in the body oftentimes and the doctor never asks, well, what happened to you in your life? No. And I think when we’re finding ourselves, feeling activated about something emotionally and feeling ourselves, I hate the word triggered, but activated. Right? If someone were to ask you, what happened to you? What makes you believe that to be true? Well, that opens the door for compassion and understanding and listening and all those things that build and deep in connection. And I think that’s one of the things you’re alluding to is that we’ve lost the ability to connect Yes. Why have we lost the ability connect? And one thing I say oftentimes, I’ve said so many times on this podcast, is that we can only listen to others and be there for others to the capacity and to the depth that we’ve allowed ourselves to go.
Ed Owens: Maybe.
Victoria Volk: And I think what I love for the world to be grief recovery. I’m gonna make that a new word. The world would be a totally different place if it was all grief recovery. It’s grief recovery, the world. And Mhmm. You know, I think that by sweeping our own doorstep is where we can start in our in homes, in our own homes, within our own communities. Is we’re not projectile vomiting all of our stuff, I think, on other people.
Ed Owens: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Like, I can’t control the events of leaders all over the planet making choices Right? I can’t control that. You can’t control that. People listening to this podcast cannot control that, and it but it impacts us.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Ed Owens: Right? We feel this very intensely. And so you’re a hundred percent correct. What we need to do is first individually make sure you call it, make sure your ports are swept. Right? I say we need to emotionally increase our capacity which means we need to emotionally get rid of things we’re carrying with this that no longer serve as well. Right? If it hey. If the pain you’re carrying for the last twenty years is serving me well, right. You can keep it. But if If it’s not helping, where it’s from spend my experience, it doesn’t help over time. Then let’s let’s emotionally get rid of some of that stuff. If it’s not serving your higher purpose, if it’s not serving your life well, if it’s not serving your relationships well, if it’s not serving you anymore, by keeping it. And if we get rid of that, then I have an increased emotional capacity now to be able to better be there for the people in my life. And whether that’s as a role model, as an example, I mean, I can’t count how many times, but I’m sure you’ve seen this too. Right? Where people say, god, you know, my this person in my family or my friends, like, after going through these these tools you teach, people have noticed the change in me. Like, this is very common because once you deal with this stuff and you have an increased capacity to better show up more fully in life, to be a better version of you, other people see it and ripples in a positive way. Wife. And that is, to your point, when we start with us, it ripples out into others. First, our little close nuclear family and friends and then it goes bigger and bigger. And again, that increased capacity that we have to better be there for others that allows us to make a difference in our communities versus I’m stuck with all these picky things that don’t feel good good. And the last thing I wanna do is get out into my community and do anything. I’m a little bit of work. I’m like, I’m home. I’m exhausted. Everything in life is a chore, a struggle. I just gotta get the day. And tomorrow is gonna be groundhog day. Or, again, we’re gonna repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Right? But that is not a life folks. That is not how you are designed to live. And if you find yourself in a situation where your life is about getting through the work day, getting through the things you have to do every day, being exhausted all the time, getting up and doing it again. If that’s your life, My heart aches free because we’re not supposed to be there. We are by design here to love other people and be loved in return. We are here to trust other people and be trusted in return. To human nature, We are here to form connections with other human beings and to have those connections be a source of positive love can, you know, part of a life. But what you’ve been experienced at this point is keeping you from experiencing life that way. You’re not living a life in line with your human nature. That’s not what for you.
Victoria Volk: As kids, toddlers even were taught cause and effect. Right? Oh, touch the oven, you get a burn. Right? Don’t do that again. You learn the first time not to do not to touch the stove.
Ed Owens: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And it’s like, We have to understand that our words matter, our actions matter, that there’s a cause and effect.
Ed Owens: Yep.
Victoria Volk: And we can either be have a positive influence on the effect or we can contribute to the negative energy
Ed Owens: Yeah. Of Perfect. Yeah. Yep. And we also need to sit there when I understand that whatever choices that I make, or you make, or anyone listening to this, you know, we’re always a choice. I tell people all the time. You’re always a choice. Every day, you’re making thousands of choices. Mhmm. Right?
You’re always a choice. And that’s a good thing and a bad thing. It’s a sweet thing and a sour thing. Right? You can make a good choice. It has a good alpha. You can make a choice that maybe is not necessarily the best choice. And you’re getting less than an outcome. That’s ideal. And sometimes you make choices that can hurt other people. And again, like, there’s a whole loving myself, loving other conversation we could talk about too. But we have to also get to a point and I think there’s a lot of this missing in our society too. People willing to take ownership and responsibility for the choices that they make that might might be hurtful to another person. Again, I’m not saying that everybody makes choices whether it’s to have healthy boundaries in life, whether it’s not a good relationship. I need to get out of it. I mean, that’s gonna hurt. We all make choices that are the right choice to make But even when we make that right choice, we also have to folks be willing to take ownership and responsibility that I made that choice. Right? It’s not old. They made me do this. Mhmm. Now I chose this because I love myself enough to make this choice and not a but but an and I recognize that this choice Right? I have some ownership responsibility for how this is painful. Okay? I mean, it’s both things. That’s just one of the other folks. Otherwise, again, it’s us versus them. It’s we’re, you know, we’re playing this one up one down game all the time. And if more people would be willing to take some ownership or responsibility, even when I make a choice that’s painful and it’s hurtful, where it’s gonna cause knee pain, or other people pain, or my children pain, or something else, even when it’s a loving and correct choice, like getting out of bed waste. Change that example. You mentioned divorce earlier and not this whole concept. Even when that’s the right choice, we have to take ownership responsibility when we make that choice.
Victoria Volk: I know our time is winding down, but I really do want to give you the floor of the mic, so to speak, about something you and I both passionate about because I’m a veteran too, about the work that you are doing with veterans and the importance of grief recovery. Just in case anyone with some poll happens to listen to this.
Ed Owens: Right.
Victoria Volk: Well, you and I have both individually been working to do me on a local level, which is you know, door slamming in my face, but the importance of trying to bring grief recovery to the veteran community. And I would just love you to share what you’ve been working to do, what grief recovery institute has been working to do, and and where things are standing in there.
Ed Owens: So take a step back. So John was a big non veteran. So the first thing I wanted to hear is this whole thing was created by an old Vietnam combat vet. Right? So if you’re military and everything else and you’re thinking like, oh, I don’t know about this thing. You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. This was created by John with that was his background. He was also created from a place of he was hurting. He was emotional overwhelmed. He was about to take he contemplates taking his own life. And he wanted to find a different choice. Right? And I think that’s important about this military conversation. Is that this whole thing was created by a guy who was hurting, who wanted to have a different choice. Than what so many of his brothers and sisters would do. Alright. So that’s where we start with this. And the entire history, the grief recovery method, the grief recovery institute, we’ve been working with veterans and trying to work with veterans and trying to get this in front of them. The last eight years, take ten years, you know, we’ve had a lot of great inroads. Like, we’ve always done some good stuff with the military. Don’t get any wrong. But we’ve trained a few hundred, you know, chaplains and social workers and people within the military branches. Air Force and Army primarily, few navy, national guard, active duty, hand reserves, So we’ve been really fortunate to make some really positive inroads within the Department of Defense. We also made a lot of positive inroads and continue to train I would say, almost monthly people from the Veterans Administration across the country. And in the course, there’s different Veterans organizations we partner with and then train specialist with those organizations. And that’s all great. And we’ve made a lot of positive inroads. And so getting these tools and skills into the hands of veterans so that they have them to to use an easy aspect to rely on whether it’s a military service or whether it’s a personal relationships, which, by the way, the personal relationships is a high divorce rate and high alcoholism and all those other things. That is the behavioral outcomes and choices made because they’re hurt. When I hear people are going through all of these things, like you mentioned earlier, my mind and my understanding of things is what has happened. Right? I know that that going on is not happening in the vacuum. So that’s where we’ve really tried to do a lot of this. And there’s a lot of specialists like yourself. And others, right, who are either veterans or they’re not veterans, but they love working with veterans because their partners are veteran, or their dad and my dad’s or We gotta take our wins where we can get them. One here, one there, that type of thing. But I will tell you from the Institute’s perspective, we have trained. And in the last, I would say, eight years, a lot of specialists that are out there doing the work. Inside the military community and on a military basis. And we’ve had folks who in the military, who’ve taken a down range for those of you that don’t know what that term is, that means forward to pull out. Right? To hotspots. You know, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Middle East, still. There’s one maybe specialist that I know who was an advanced specialist like yourself, the word virtually. Doing things with the ships of fleet. Alright. So and doing what to what? So again, like, we’re slowly getting this more acceptable within the culture, military culture. And like anything else, it takes a long time to change the culture to any organization. Organizational behavioral changes challenging. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: And it’s not just veterans too. I mean, grief recoveries, kinda trick is starting to trickle into prisons and Yeah. First responders.
Ed Owens: Correct.
Victoria Volk: Wow.
Ed Owens: Correct. You know, we’ve got a write me a specialist working in all of those clinics, and jets, and hospitals, and senior centers. Stepary religious or spiritual type of group you can imagine. I mean, it’s going It’s very heartwarming to know that we have expanded into so many different parts of our society that historically we’re just not there. And we still have a lot of work to do. I mean, I still have people who tell me all the time when I talk to them, like, oh, well, what’s the roof cover method? I mean, again, it’s, you know, it’s We’ve been around for over forty five years, and that doesn’t mean that people know who we exist.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. Yep.
Ed Owens: And, you know, doing podcast like this helps to help raise that awareness. If you’re listening to the spokes and you’ve not had a chance, please you know, go to Victoria’s website, read up on some of this stuff. Go with every method, you know, dot com. And you can read it on stuff. The more that we become aware, that there’s other information, other tools, other skills. There’s things that we can do to educate ourselves and then make a choice. And we’re always a choice. Right? And I hope you choose to at least start learning more. And if it feels right, I always tell people all the time, folks you got to trust your intuition.
If your intuition says this feels right, I wanna keep looking. I wanna keep I wanna know more. And if your intuition says, now this is for me, then great. I wish you well, and thanks for at least being open for a moment to take a look at something. The more people can become aware of it, the more people that at least know there is something else, the more we can help. And by the way, we don’t just help adults. We help children. Getting back to this whole conversation, like, we were talking about earlier, like, folks we’ve got to do a better job. As adults, as positive male, and female both in the in the children’s lives whether that’s your family, your nuclear family, whether that’s your extended family, like we have to have be the positive role models. We have tools for you too so that you can teach them to children versus teaching them things which may or may not be the most helpful to them. Let’s create the confusing. Let’s create the issues. Let’s create a lifetime. I’ll try and struggle with it. Figure out what they’re they’re confident with their human nature. So we have those tools too. So, like, we do a lot of different stuff. And I would encourage you to at least pause and be curious. I think I wanna learn a little bit more about this. You know, that’s a great place to start. And then from there, folks you can talk to people like Victoria, you know, get on our calendar. Say, hey, tell me no, then let us have an opportunity to have a heartfelt conversation.
Victoria Volk: And I would add, what do you have to lose? Because like you said earlier, it’s what you’ve been doing probably isn’t working. Probably has been working for a long time. And that was me too, over thirty years. Right?
Like, I got this. I can DIY my my emotional trauma.
Ed Owens: Yeah. Right. I’m getting your again, I say that to people all time. Like, hey, look, if you like how your life feels, and you like how everything is and this is all good and it’s working for you? Okay. Cool. You can keep it? But the problem is most of the time when I’m talking to people, they aren’t happy. They don’t feel like they’re living as fully as they could be. They’re tired of feelings alone and isolated or sad or those days come around the calendar and it’s just ruins the week.
I mean
Victoria Volk: It’s like you said, surviving. It’s you can either survive or you can Thrive. Right?
Ed Owens: Right. It’s choice. Remember? See, there’s a theme here. It’s choice.
People can choose. You can choose to live your life in a survival mode, or you can choose to not let the experiences that we’ve had in our lives define us. Of course, we learn things from. Of course, we can learn. We can grow, we can become different people because of the experiences and the losses and the events in our lives would shape us. But folks, they are chapters in your life. They are not your life. And it doesn’t mean that whatever you’ve been through in your life is now the story of your life. You are a choice. You can choose how to write your own storing.
You cannot choose and control the events that take place in your life that impact you, you’re human. But you can choose how you show up after these things happen in reaction to what happened. It’s a choice to deal with the pain of whatever’s going on in your life or deal by the way, embrace and lean into the joy and happiness, it works both way. It’s a choice. Some people choose not to embrace and lean into joy and happiness and connection because they choose to isolate. That’s a choice. That’s a heart brain. Choice. Right? When I see that happening? But again, there’s a choice. We oops. How do you wanna show up? What do you wanna do?
Victoria Volk: The phrase that got me, I think, that resonated with me the most, was have the courage to take a chance to make a change.
Ed Owens: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And it does take courage.
Ed Owens: It does. And people who are hurting their lack of courage, they just don’t know which choices they got. And again, we can only make the choices, but we can only, you know, choose what to do based on what I know. And I can only use the tools of information to make choices whether they’re good choices or not until I learn better skills and tools so I can make a better choice. Again, this whole thing boils down to that. If you like the way the tools are working great, if you don’t like the way they’re working, Let’s show you some other things that you didn’t know before, or maybe you’d heard, like, a piece of this here, a piece of that there, but we didn’t put them together. In a way that’s like, god. Why didn’t I think of that? You know?
Victoria Volk: That’s what I think about grief recovery is, why didn’t I think of that?
Ed Owens: Exactly. Right? So, yeah, we do the best we can. And this isn’t a judgment folks. All of you have been doing the best you can to navigate life with what you were taught up to this point. And that is not a judgment, right, at all. I just wanna give all of you just a big hug. And and because you’re listening to this, you’re curious about the potential tools and options. And things that you can make different choices with. And I applaud you for that. It’s because when you learn other information skills, tools, You can make different choices. You can have a different outcome. And or not, it’s choice. You can choose to be right and hold on to painful things that have happened in your life, or you could choose to be happy to join in type one. I hope you pick happiness. I hope you pick joy. I hope you pick connection, love. That’s what I would pick.
Victoria Volk: Beautiful way to wrap this up. I want to have I would love to have I desire to have a part two, possibly. I think after you listen to that episode, I’ll share it in the show notes like I said. Link your Great Recovery Institute also in the show notes and my information where people can find me as well. But where can people find me if they’re just listening to this where they can connect with you?
Ed Owens: So if you wanna connect with me, the easiest way is if you wanna put my email address in show notes. It’s n o ones, one word, at grief recovery method dot com. You can also go to brief for perry method dot com and go to the about us page. You’ll see about me. I also have a micro website on the on there. If you wanna just click my micro website, that allows you folks to send me a direct email message a calendar link to jump on my calendar if you wanna have a conversation. Love to talk to you about whatever news you wanna talk about, and you can read more about me that way.
Victoria Volk: And if you’re listening to this and you work with first responders or you’re in charge of first responder department or police department or EMS or veterans organization or hospice or anything like that and you want to bring grief recovery into your facility and organization and community. Mhmm. Ed’s your guy. Please reach out to him.
Ed Owens: I would love I would love to have a conversation with him if the audience who would like that. That’s conversation.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. The more people we get certified in this, the farther this can spread and I think that’s the goal here. So thank you so much for being my guest.
Ed Owens: It’s been an honor. I really appreciate the invitation. I look forward to part two. And for all of you that were listening. Thanks for tuning in.
Thanks for watching tuning in. See you next.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
