Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Welcome to the third episode of my Holiday Grief Series! In this episode, I explore the often-overlooked challenges of the holiday season. While this time of year is traditionally filled with joy and celebration, it can also bring about stress and anxiety that lurk beneath the surface.
Key Takeaways:
Understanding Holiday Stressors: I explore various sources of holiday stress, including family dynamics, social pressures, environmental factors, and financial concerns. Whether you’re feeling isolated from loved ones or overwhelmed by family gatherings, you’re not alone in your feelings.
Dysfunctional Thinking Patterns: Discover how specific thought patterns, such as “Shoulds,” catastrophizing, and all-or-nothing thinking, can contribute to holiday stress. I’ll unpack these patterns and provide insight into how to challenge and change them.
Coping Strategies: I share practical tips for managing holiday stress and anxiety. From setting realistic expectations and prioritizing self-care to the importance of sleep and exercise, we discuss how to find balance and peace amidst the chaos.
Creating New Traditions: The holidays are a time for reflection and growth. I encourage you to consider starting new traditions that resonate with your current feelings and allow for personal grace and authenticity.
Embracing Your Feelings: It’s okay to acknowledge that the holidays may not be as joyful as they once were. I talk about the importance of being honest with yourself and others about your emotions and allowing space for grief and healing.
Join me and discover ways to embrace this season with compassion and understanding. Remember, you have the power to shape your holiday experience, and it’s perfectly okay to prioritize your well-being.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating Holiday Stress – Embracing Authenticity and Well-being
As the winter holiday season approaches, many of us eagerly anticipate the joy and warmth it traditionally brings. However, it’s crucial to acknowledge that this time can also be fraught with stressors that impact our mental health and well-being. The third episode of our holiday grief series sheds light on these multifaceted challenges, offering insights into how we can navigate them while embracing authenticity.
The holidays often highlight family dynamics in ways that may not always be positive. Whether it’s due to physical separation from loved ones or unresolved conflicts within a large gathering, family-related stress is prevalent during this time. It’s essential to recognize these feelings rather than suppress them. For those estranged from their families or coping with loss, acknowledging loneliness is the first step toward healing.
Tip: Consider starting new traditions that honor your current reality instead of forcing yourself into traditional roles or expectations.
Social Stressors
The pressure to socialize—whether through attending functions or simply writing greeting cards—can become overwhelming for many people. This social anxiety can detract from genuine interactions if left unchecked.
Tip: Prioritize events and activities based on what genuinely brings you joy rather than out of obligation.
Overindulgence Temptations
Holiday festivities often involve indulgent foods and drinks which might lead us down a path filled with guilt afterward—a cycle all too familiar when combined with financial strain caused by excessive spending habits typical around gift-giving seasons!
Tip: Practice mindful consumption; set realistic limits beforehand so as not only enjoy but savor every moment without remorse later on!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me for this third episode of The Holiday Grief Series. While the winter holidays are traditionally a time of joy and fellowship, The season carries several stresses, some hidden behind the lights and laughter of the season. Rates of depression, substance abuse, domestic strife, not to mention anxiety, worry, and grief all increase this time of year. Holiday stress can be sorted into a few categories. One of them being typical holiday stressors that many of us experience such as family related stressors, Too little family, those separated from family due to geographical distance or serving in the armed forces, divorce or estrangement, often field only and isolated at this time of year. In the first episode of the series covers estrangement if that’s a topic of interest for you. On the flip side of that, you can have too much family, unresolved family conflicts, unrealistic expectations of what the family gathering should be like, and confusion about one’s place in the family can create anxiety about getting together and tension when the family does get get together. It’s a reminder of anniversary dates. Holidays can often bring back memories of the past. Remembering Happier Times may result in grief over what has been lost. Recalling traumatic experiences is bound to dampen one spirits amid all the celebration. Listen to the second up sold in this series where I talk about honoring those we’ve lost during the holidays on four ideas for coping. There’s also social stressors. Shopping in crowds, standing in lines, driving in traffic, entertaining guests by attending social functions creates more opportunities for social anxiety than almost any other time of year. Even writing greeting cards and selecting just the perfect gift may feel like pressure after a while, especially with deadlines. You may be surprised to learn that this one is actually a stressor for me. I love people, but I also love the quiet, and although I love when family comes to visit, it stresses me out. I spend days beforehand cleaning like a mad woman, only for all of the effort to be undone in one day, and just have this feeling like I have to be on energetically. It’s the being on that totally zaps me. That’s why when I take a vacation, I need a vacation from the vacation. And when family leaves, I need a day to regroup and fill my cup again. And I think we’re all at least a little guilty of this neck dresser. Which we do to ourselves, and that is temptations and over indulgent and over indulgences. Eating too much of the wrong foods, drinking alcohol, spending too much money, and generally overdoing it often lead to feeling of out being out of control and then what what happens we feel guilty. And then there’s environmental issues. Traveling a bad weather is always stressful. Compounded by extra traffic and delays. December is also the darkest month of the year with daylight barely lasting eight hours, resulting in a wintertime depression called seasonal effective disorder. And if you have a husband like mine who is the snowflake watchdog and who travels about as good as a two year old, it’s extra stressful when you’re caught traveling in bad weather. But by gosh, we make it home alive because those four wheels are probably not going faster than thirty miles an hour. And another common holiday stressor would be financial issues. When the economy is in the dumps and you or other family members are out of work, You may not have the means to put up your usual decorations, provide gifts, entertain, or even make the meals you have had in the past. This can also also bring with it a lot of feelings of guilt, shame, and grief. This can all potentially lead to stressful thinking during the holidays. Certain kinds of dysfunctional thinking can occur during the holidays that contribute to stress. These consist of the shoulds, or unrealistic demands we place on ourselves and others. It could be catastrophizing where we focus on the worst possible scenario, and it could be all or nothing thinking. Some examples of the shoulds, It really should get the cards done on time, get the shopping done early, get presents for everyone, find the perfect gift for each person, prepare enough food, decorate properly, Go to church. Keep everyone in the family happy. Keep up a happy face. Have plenty of sweets on hand, but don’t eat too much yourself. And keep all the familiar traditions going at all costs. That’s a lot of shoulds. Do you should all over yourself around the holidays? It’s so easy to do. Next, we can catastrophize, and that includes examples like, it would be terrible if something went wrong over the holidays. If I don’t get the perfect gift or if I don’t make everything perfect, then I’ll be criticized. Maybe someone will feel left out so we better do this, that or the other thing, I didn’t get my cards or presents out on time. I’ll look like I don’t have my crap together. My kids need this newest thing or else, fill in the blank. And finally, the all are nothing thinking. If I feel sad at Christmas, I am not being a good Christian. If I don’t decorate for the holidays, I am not being a good neighbor or a grinch. If I’m not as happy as everyone else, I must be seriously depressed. People who don’t go all out for the holidays are just like Scrooge. The holidays will never be as great as they were in the good old days. Thinking or talking about loved ones who are gone will just make the holidays depressing. So far, you’ve probably nodded your head in agreement a few times, maybe even let out an audible. Oh my gosh. Yes. That’s totally me. So how can we flip this script? Here are some tips for coping with the stress of holidays. Speak out balance between what is really meaningful to you about the holidays and what you consider to be your obligations during this time. Decide ahead of time of realistic plan for what you can accomplish this season, including how much you can spend, how much you will decorate, socialize, or indulge. Participate in those activities you really feel up to, Remember, you don’t have to do everything or accept every invitation. Forgive yourself if things don’t turn out perfectly or if you make a mistake. Forgive others if they don’t do it your way or make a mistake. Allow yourself to grieve if you are experiencing a loss. Don’t expect yourself to feel happy every moment. Likewise, don’t criticize yourself for enjoying the moment. This next tip might surprise you, but open your curtains. Especially if you suffer from seasonal effective disorder, you may be want to purchase a light therapy lamp. By Christmas morning, the days already start getting longer again. I personally have pulled out my sunbox lamp a few weeks ago, and I sit by it every morning with my first cup of morning coffee. The long and cold North Dakota winters do affect me and my mood. And using light therapy is supportive of maintaining a natural sight circadian rhythm, which in turn supports the quality of your sleep, which is so important if your body is already overwhelmed by stressors, grief, or both. Here’s another tip that you’ve probably heard a million times, Allow yourself time for rest and exercise. Bundle up and go outside for fresh air even if it’s cold. Physical exercise also helps brighten the mood and increase energy levels. I personally am already devising a plan when winter weather keep me away from the gym. Lifting has become my favorite form of exercise and has been great for my mood as winter has settled in. Equally important is recognizing my body’s cues when rest is in order and listening to the wisdom of my body. Which knows a heck of a lot better than my mind. Our minds are given way too much power friends, tune into your body’s wisdom. It’s always giving you clues. If you’re looking for ways to support your energetic body, I did just launch my energy healing membership by the way. I’ll add a link in the show notes if you want to learn more. But exercise aside, we also know the importance of sleep. Humans also need more sleep this time of year, so give yourself a little extra time. Talking over your stresses and feelings with a close friend, pastor, or professional counselor is a good way to get a handle on stress whatever the season. I’ve also found brain dumping before bed helpful if not taking in all those to do, swirling around in my head and getting them out on paper. I also focus only on one day at a time. I do look at the wake ahead too, but before bed, I look at what’s on the docket for the next day and make sure my priorities are taken care of first. And speaking of writing things down. Writing down your thoughts and reflecting on them can also provide insights into your problems. If you’ve never heard of the five minute journal, it’s amazing for a daily quick morning and evening check-in. I’ll put a link in the show notes. It’s a great start if journaling isn’t really your thing, but it is a nice nice reflective tool. Maybe in all of that reflecting, you realize this next one applies to you. Just take a break from Christmas by putting your mind on other things. It’s okay to play a different kind of music occasionally. Doing things for others may get your mind off your own problems. Have a personal plan for coping with family gatherings. Decide ahead of time how you will approach certain people, what limits you will set on your interactions, what your role will be during the visit, and when to say goodbye. And the final note on coping during the holidays, Challenge the thinking that stresses you. Question the shoulds you place on yourself or that others place upon you. Catch all your all or nothing thinking and look for some middle ground. Avoid catastrophizing when things don’t go well. Is it the worst thing if the holiday wasn’t the greatest? I’d wager to guess that if you’re grieving, the worst has already happened. Remember all of these holiday traditions we hold so dear and try so hard to follow or once just an idea that someone thought would be fun or important to do. Maybe this year you will start your own holiday tradition or maybe Just maybe this is the first season you decide to give yourself some grace. Be honest with yourself and others about your feelings and make it the best it can be with where you’re at. Apologize where you need to apologize. Say thank you but no thanks where you feel you need to, and let go of the expectations of yourself and others too. Until next time friends, be well. Show this with someone who may need it, and remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In Episode 2 of my holiday grief series, I explore the tender journey of honoring lost loved ones during the festive season—a time that often brings a mix of joy and sorrow. As your host, I want to assure you that feeling these emotions is completely normal. Reflecting on my own experiences, I’ve learned that traditional ways of handling grief—like keeping feelings bottled up or avoiding memories—usually don’t bring comfort.
One story shared by a podcast guest really resonated with me; she grew up in a warm but emotionally reserved family when it came to grieving her mother’s death. This episode offers practical ways to honor those we’ve lost. The six ideas shared in this episode are a starting point. Perhaps they will inspire you to think of other ideas. The point is not just to “get through” the holidays but also to embrace the gifts that grieving with others can bring. The ideas shared can support you in cultivating that within your family.
Often, one person in the family has to go first – to initiate the challenging, unknown things and break the mold of the grieving norms we’ve all grown accustomed to. This episode may be just what you need to hear to start to do grief differently.
I emphasize that everyone grieves differently, so it’s important to communicate plans with family members and respect each person’s readiness to participate—or not—in these activities.
Ultimately, this episode encourages us all to find personal ways of remembering those we’ve lost; such gestures help maintain our bonds with them while adding depth and significance—even amidst sorrow—to the holidays ahead!
Please revisit Episode 1 if you’re dealing with estrangement issues too—and feel free to share today’s message widely among friends needing similar support because sharing both love & loss has healing power beyond measure. 💛
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Holiday Grief – Honoring Lost Loved Ones
The holiday season is often painted with broad strokes of joy and celebration, yet for many, it brings a complex tapestry woven with both happiness and sorrow. This duality becomes particularly poignant when we find ourselves missing loved ones who have passed on. Episode 2 of the holiday grief series delves into this emotional landscape, offering insights and practical ways to honor those we’ve lost during these festive times.
Acknowledging Our Emotions
Grief does not adhere to a schedule or calendar—it ebbs and flows unpredictably. During the holidays, memories of past gatherings can intensify feelings of loss. It’s crucial to acknowledge that experiencing such emotions is entirely normal. The episode’s host emphasizes that suppressing grief or avoiding conversations about our deceased loved ones rarely provides solace; instead, embracing these feelings can be profoundly healing.
This concept is illustrated through personal stories shared in the podcast series. One guest recounted growing up in an emotionally reserved environment where expressing grief over her mother’s death was discouraged—an approach that left her feeling isolated rather than comforted.
Practical Ways to Honor Loved Ones
To navigate holiday grief while celebrating cherished memories, consider incorporating some meaningful practices:
- Create a Memory Table or Altar: Designate a space adorned with photos and mementos of your loved one during family gatherings. This visual tribute serves as both a touchstone for reflection and an invitation for others to share their own remembrances.
- Share Stories: Encourage family members to recount anecdotes involving your departed loved one. These stories foster connection among participants while providing opportunities for collective healing—a stark contrast to solitary grieving.
- Cook Their Favorite Dishes: Preparing meals they adored can evoke warm recollections associated with shared culinary experiences—nourishing more than just appetites but also hearts.
- Engage in Charity Work: Commemorate them by contributing positively within communities through volunteering efforts conducted under their name—a gesture reflecting how much impact they had on you personally too!
- Light Candles as Remembrance Rituals: Simple acts like lighting candles at home provide quiet moments dedicated solely toward honoring those who’ve gone before us amidst bustling festivities surrounding us all around…
EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for joining me for today’s episode, which is episode two of four in my four part holiday grief series. Last week, I talked about estrangement, And this week, I’m focusing on how ways to honor those we’ve lost during the holidays. And for many this time of year can be particularly challenging as you navigate the complex emotions of grief and seek ways to keep the memory of your loved ones alive. It’s important to remember that feeling a mix of joy and sorrow during the season is okay, not to mention it’s normal and it’s natural. I want to start this episode by sharing the importance of honoring our loved ones and how doing so can bring you comfort. This was something that was not emulated for me and not something we did as a family after my father passed when I was eight. And I think this is pretty typical for society to do, push forward, get through, and maybe say the deceased loved one’s name, but more than likely not for fear of upsetting another family member. A recent podcast guest whose episode will go live in twenty twenty five expressed how she lived in a household with two families combined as a child in India. Someone was always around and they were always together as a family. However, after her mother passed, despite being surrounded by so much love, she never felt more alone after her mom passed away. Everyone in the family grieved alone, went on their own grief island, so to speak, didn’t express emotions and never spoke of her mother. So she grew to be a teenager and an adult who would do the same because that’s what was emulated and taught by the behaviors of others and her family. I know that was my response too, to stuff, bury, and do my damned just to forget. However, the thing about our shadows is they’re always right behind us. The holidays can often amplify feelings of loss, reminding us of the empty space at the table. Honoring our loved ones during this time not only helps us keep their memories alive, but also allows us to process our grief in a healthy way. The holiday season can be a time to connect with our loved ones, even if they are no longer physically present. By actively remembering them, we can create a sense of connection that transcends their absence. So how can we honor our loved ones during the holidays? Here are some ideas. You could create a memory table or an altar. Set up a special place in your home where you can display photos or souvenirs. Or favorite items of your loved one. This can become a focal point for reflection and remembrance during holiday gatherings. If family members are gathering at your home, consider inviting them to bring something that reminds them of the loved one. Creating a space of remembrance open to all family members to participate can open up dialogue among family members to share in the grief rather than each individual grieving silently alone. You could share stories and memories. Encourage family members to share their favorite stories about the loved one you’re honoring. This not only keeps their memory alive, but also can foster connection and healing among others who are grieving. Quite the opposite of my podcast guest experience and my own. You could cook their favorite recipes, prepare dishes you loved to unloved. Cooking and sharing their favorite meals can evoke fond memories, and create a sense of warmth and nostalgia. You could also participate in a charity or volunteer, honor your loved ones by giving back to the community in their name. This could be through donating to a cause they cared about, or volunteering your time to help those in need during the holiday season. There is a saying that the quickest way to forget about your own pain in sorrow is to help someone else in theirs. Right? Another way you can honor your loved one is by lighting a candle in memory of them, which can be a beautiful and simple way to honor them. You could do this at a family gathering or during a quiet moment of reflection. And finally, incorporate their spirit into new traditions. Consider starting a new holiday tradition that reflects the essence of your loved one. This could be anything from a special toast in their memory to a unique activity they enjoyed. As we explore these ideas, we must remember that grief is a personal journey. Not everyone may be open to participating in the ideas shared. So I would suggest that if you choose to do any of these things suggested and you’re the one hosting, consider giving a heads up to the rest of the family, inform them of what you’re planning to do. The last thing you want to do is make a meaningful experience uncomfortable and awkward because other family members are caught by surprise. May may not be ready to participate, and it’s important to let that be okay. Similarly, if you’re not ready to participate, it is equally important to allow those who wish to express their grief this way to do so. This is how we honor people’s grief and meet them where they are. Ultimately, allowing yourself to feel the emotions during the holidays and recognizing that they are a part of your love for that person can become even more meaningful, when those emotions are shared with others you love. Creating space for both joy and sorrow can be incredibly healing. It’s important to acknowledge that while the holidays can bring moments of happiness, they can also serve as poignant reminders of what we’ve lost. If you find the holidays particularly overwhelming, don’t hesitate to ask for support. Connecting with others who have experienced similar losses can provide comfort and understanding. Online communities can offer a sense of belonging and resources for navigating these feelings. However, it’s important to remember that others beliefs about grief are also expressed in those environments that aren’t helpful and can even be hurtful. For example, one may believe that they will forever feel the pain of grief. And I want to say that although that may feel true for that person, that doesn’t have to be the story you adopt as your own. It is possible to live a life of joy and meaning. So it’s essential to discern the advice others give. Talking to a therapist or someone like myself who specializes in grief may be helpful. These spaces can provide valuable tools and coping strategies as you honor your loved one during this time. Honoring a loved one during the holidays is a powerful way to keep their memory alive while navigating your own grief. Whether creating new traditions, sharing stories, or participating in acts of kindness, each gesture can help you feel connected to your loved one. I thank you for joining me today. If you haven’t listened to episode one of four in the series yet, this is just a friendly reminder to go back and check out episode two twenty two how to deal with estrangement. It is my hope that the ideas shared today inspire you to honor your loved ones a way that feels good to you. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need it. And remember, you are not alone on this journey. Until next time, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the first episode of a four-part series on holiday grief, I discuss estrangement and its impact during the holiday season.
Estrangement, a form of alienation within families, can arise from conflicts over values or unresolved trauma and affects relationships between parents, children, grandparents, siblings, and even extended family members. It often stems from disputes over values, lifestyles, past trauma, or unresolved issues.
The holiday season is typically seen as a time for joy and togetherness with loved ones. However, for those experiencing estrangement, it can heighten feelings of loneliness and guilt. Societal pressure to maintain traditions doesn’t help when your familial bonds are strained or broken.
I offered several strategies to manage these challenges and share some of my journey. I hope to show healing is possible beyond inherited narratives.
I encourage you to explore the truths about family stories passed down through generations. Reconciliation might be an option worth considering if circumstances allow it. Remember, there’s communal support available as we navigate this path together. Please share this episode with anyone who could benefit from our discussion on grief throughout the holiday series.
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Understanding Family Estrangement: Navigating the Holidays with Grieving Voices
The holiday season is often portrayed as a time of joy, togetherness, and familial bonding. However, for many individuals experiencing family estrangement, this period can be fraught with emotional challenges. In today’s episode of “Grieving Voices,” the host delves into the complex issue of family estrangement and its profound impact during what should be a celebratory time.
What is Family Estrangement?
Family estrangement refers to a state where alienation or hostility exists within familial relationships. This can occur between various members such as parents and children, siblings, grandparents and grandchildren, or even extended family members. The reasons behind these rifts are diverse—they might stem from conflicting values or lifestyles, unresolved past trauma, or long-standing issues that have never been addressed.
Types of Estrangement
- Parent-Child Estrangement: Often arises due to differing expectations or life choices.
- Sibling Rivalries: Can escalate over perceived favoritism or inheritance disputes.
- Generational Gaps: Differences in beliefs between grandparents and grandchildren.
- Extended Family Conflicts: Misunderstandings among cousins or in-laws.
Challenges During the Holiday Season
For those dealing with estranged relationships, holidays can amplify feelings of loneliness and shame—emotions already simmering beneath the surface throughout the year but exacerbated by societal pressures during festive times.
Emotional Impact:
- Loneliness & Isolation: Watching others celebrate may heighten awareness of one’s separation from family.
- Guilt & Shame: Internalizing blame for fractured relationships intensifies emotional distress.
- Unresolved Trauma: Memories tied to past conflicts resurface more vividly around holidays.
Coping Strategies for Navigating Holidays Amidst Estrangements
To help manage these difficult emotions during such periods:
- Acknowledge Emotions: Recognize your feelings without judgment; it’s okay not to feel ‘festive.’
- Create New Traditions: Develop personal rituals aligned with current circumstances rather than adhering strictly to old ones which may no longer serve you well emotionally.
- Set Boundaries: Clearly define limits on interactions (if any) with remaining connected relatives who might inadvertently trigger discomfort through their actions/words/actions etc., ensuring protection against further hurtful encounters wherever possible!
4 .**Seek Support Networks/Groups/Friends Sharing Similar Experiences : Joining communities facing similar situations offers valuable insights along mutual encouragement needed navigating challenging moments together effectively!
5 .Engage Self-Care Activities – Prioritize self-care practices like meditation/yoga/journaling/exercise aiding relaxation amidst chaos surrounding typical holiday hustle-bustle scenes unfolding everywhere else seemingly effortlessly outside world view alone instead perhaps?).
6 Consult Professional Help If Overwhelmed – Therapy sessions provide safe spaces exploring deeper underlying causes contributing towards strained dynamics while offering guidance healing process itself eventually leading potential reconciliation pathways opening up naturally overtime too maybe someday soon hopefully?
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome to today’s episode of Grieving Voices, where I will explore the complexities of family relationships and the challenges many face during the holiday season. Today, we’re exploring estrangement and its effects on individuals and families during this time of year. Whether you’re an estrangement, an adult child or someone who has distanced themselves from family for various reasons. I hope to provide insights and support for navigating these difficult moments. But first, let’s start to understand estrangement. We need to define it. According to Webster’s or Wikipedia, estrangement is the state of being alienated or separated in feeling or affection. A state of hostility or unfriendlyness, the state of being separated or removed. Going deeper, estrangement can take many forms and it’s essential to recognize the various types of relationships that can be impacted. For example, a parent or child. A parent child estrangement. This is when adult children choose to cut ties with their parents due to conflicts over values, lifestyle choices, or past trauma. Another type of strange relationship is a sibling estrangement. Siblings may drift apart due to rivalry, differing life paths, or unresolved childhood issues. Grandparent grandchild estrangement is another type. Sometimes grandparents find themselves estranged from their grandchildren often due to parental decisions or family conflicts. And finally, extended family estrangement. Aunts, uncles, cousins, and more can also be affected, especially in families with deep rooted issues or disagreements. Understanding the type of estrangement you’re experiencing can help you find the right coping approach, especially during the holidays when emotions run high. And now that I’ve shared some examples of estrangement, let’s move on to the challenges of estrangement during the holidays. The holiday season is often portrayed as a time for family gatherings, joy, and togetherness. However, for those experiencing estrangement, it can be a painful reminder of what’s missing. Some common challenges include feelings of loneliness. The absence of family can lead to profound feelings of isolation, especially when social media showcases happy family moments. Gilt and shame, estranged individuals may struggle with guilt over their estrangement questioning their decisions or feeling like they’ve failed their fam familial roles. Also triggers from past trauma. Holidays can evoke memories of past conflicts or traumas making it difficult to find peace during these times. And there can also be a pressure to conform. There can be this societal pressure to maintain family traditions, even when they’re no longer healthy or enjoyable. So up to this point, you’ve learned what estrangement is, examples of estrangement, and the challenges of estrangement during the holidays. So what do you do about it? How do you manage the emotions and complexities of family dynamics with estrangement? This brings us to strategies for support during the holidays. How can individuals support themselves during this challenging time? Here are some strategies. One, acknowledge your feelings. It’s important to validate your feelings of sadness, anger, or loss. The moment you feel all the feelings building up in you, it’s an opportunity to stuff or an opportunity to unload. And you already know which I’ll say is healthier. By unloading, I don’t mean lashing out of a fit and fit of rage at those provoking the uncomfortable feelings. Instead, unload bikes pressing in a way that does not hurt or harm another person. Screaming into a pillow, journaling or talking to a friend can help process these emotions. And if you’re in a place you can’t process at that moment, consciously and with awareness, Tell yourself that although you can’t express in real time, you’ll park those feelings until you can address them later and then actually revisit those feelings later and do something to feel and process them. Two, create new traditions. Consider starting new holiday traditions that align more with your current situation. This could be spending time with friends, volunteering, or even enjoying a quiet day at home. Three, set boundaries. If you’re in contact with estranged family members, consider establishing clear boundaries to protect your emotional well-being. Four, seek support. Joining support groups are connecting with others in a similar situation can provide a sense of community and understanding. Five, practice self care. Make time for activities that bring you joy in relaxation such as reading, exercising, or indulging in a favorite hobby. And six, consider professional help. If feelings of estrangement become overwhelming, speak with a therapist, counselor, someone like myself, a certified grief specialist who can provide valuable coping tools. In conclusion, estrangement during the holidays can be challenging. But remember, you’re not alone. Many people navigate similar experiences and resources are available to help you through. Whether you focus on self care, create new traditions, or seek support, or prior prioritizing your emotional health. All of these can contribute to healthier, happier holiday experience. And I will personally say that I experience estrangement. There is estrangement within my own family. And it is difficult and it has been difficult over the years. I was also estranged from my father’s immediate side of the family after he passed away when I was eight. They were no longer in my life. And until almost thirty years later, I hadn’t even seen my uncle who was very close to my father or my cousins. And that was very healing for me. You see, sometimes we can get passed down these stories or beliefs that we take on as our own because they’re passed down to us, but we can always choose to write a new story. We can always choose to find a new truth for ourselves. And that’s maybe the challenge today. As if you are experiencing estrangement, there is a time for boundaries, but there might be also a time for reconciliation. Depending on how that estrangement came about. It’s very nuanced. I understand that. But just remember that people share from their lens and perspective, whether it was your parents or your grandparents, I passed down stories. That was their truth. So maybe this holiday season, ask yourself. What is my truth? What do I want to be true for me? I thank you for joining me today. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. And don’t forget to subscribe for more discussions on grief during the holidays as I’ll be continuing this series for three more episodes throughout December. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, Parent Loss, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this heartfelt episode of Grieving Voices, Chris Cochran shares the inspiring legacy of his late son Christian, who faced terminal cancer with remarkable positivity and resilience. Despite his illness, Christian lived life to its fullest up until his untimely death at the young age of 23—all while asking, “What’s good about today?”
Christian’s spirit continues to inspire through Chris’s nonprofit, What’s Good About Today?, and the book that bears the same name. Today’s episode highlights how Chris and his wife navigated the highs and lows of working diligently to get Christian the best possible care while supporting their other children. They then grappled with the profound loss of Christian, emphasizing patience, love, and being present as crucial elements in healing.
Key takeaways include acknowledging that each person’s experience of grief is unique; fostering an environment rich in understanding and compassion can aid healing amidst life’s unpredictability. Chris’s story also underscores a shift from material pursuits toward deeper spiritual connections post-loss—focusing on empathy over goals.
Chris recounts how he’s felt Christian’s presence following his death and how the ongoing relationship with his son has supported his healing.
This conversation is a powerful reminder that even amid tragedy, there is potential for enduring hope through community support, and living purposefully driven lives filled with kindness ensures loved ones’ legacies endure.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Positivity and Resilience in the Face of Grief
In a poignant episode of Grieving Voices, Chris Cochran shares an inspiring narrative about his late son, Christian. Through this heartfelt discussion, we uncover invaluable lessons on resilience, positivity, and the enduring power of love amidst profound loss.
A Legacy Built on Positivity
Christian Cochran’s story is one that resonates deeply with anyone who has faced adversity. Diagnosed with terminal cancer at a young age, Christian chose to focus not on what was lost but rather on “What’s good about today?” This simple yet powerful question became a guiding mantra for him—and later inspired both his father’s nonprofit and book under the same title.
Despite battling cholangiocarcinoma—a rare form of liver cancer—Christian maintained an unwavering zest for life. He excelled academically, graduating magna cum laude while nurturing various artistic talents. His journey serves as a testament to living fully even when time feels limited.
Navigating Grief Together
Chris describes how he and his wife navigated their grief after losing Christian by seeking therapy and leaning into each other for support while caring for their two other children who were also profoundly affected by this loss. Their experience highlights the importance of acknowledging individual grieving processes within families—a reminder that patience, empathy, and presence are crucial during such challenging times.
Through candid conversations like those featured in Grieving Voices, listeners gain insight into coping mechanisms necessary when dealing with familial grief dynamics; understanding compassionately fosters stronger bonds amid life’s unpredictability.
Inspiring Change Beyond Loss
The ripple effect left behind by individuals like Christian extends far beyond immediate family circles—it inspires communities toward purposeful pursuits aligned more closely with personal values than societal expectations alone might dictate otherwise! Friends influenced positively have embarked upon careers centered around helping others due largely because they witnessed firsthand how someone facing immense challenges could still embody hopefulness every single day despite everything else happening simultaneously around them too!
For Chris himself? Sharing stories publicly through speaking engagements offers healing opportunities alongside connecting meaningfully amongst fellow grievers experiencing similar emotions firsthand themselves perhaps unexpectedly so initially until realizing newfound camaraderie exists naturally between all parties involved ultimately leading everyone collectively forward together unitedly towards brighter futures ahead regardless past tragedies endured previously now finally being processed constructively instead destructively anymore thankfully indeed…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hey, hey, hey, thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Chris Cochran. He is a father, husband, and founder of Blue Chip Solutions, inspired by his son, Christians, enduring positivity, Chris authored what’s good about today to share a message of resilience and gratitude. Professionally, he has over three decades of experience and leadership roles across various industries and serves on the Board of Coeptis Therapeutics. Through his nonprofit, also named what’s good about today, Chris is committed to spreading kindness and hope. I hope I said that right, coeptis Therapeutics. Is that correct?
Christopher Cochran: That’s right. Yeah. Great. Much bigger that.
Victoria Volk: I am on a roll, and it’s on Tuesday. So thank you so much for being here. And I before we hopped on, I was actually checking out it’s your son’s the website is christian cochran dot org. Correct?
Christopher Cochran: Correct. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I was reading a little bit about how that the backstory of why that got started, but I will actually leave that to you to share with our listeners why what’s good about today came to be?
Christopher Cochran: I lost my son to cancer, terminal cancer in two thousand and twenty one. Christian was diagnosed at the age of twenty to with something called cholangiocarcinoma. He just graduated college. He was everything was going swimmingly. Everything’s been going well. Obviously, he’s a family and, you know, sort of back story to this is, you know, I’m I’m married to my high school sweetheart. We’ve been together since I was fifteen years old. So our dream has always been to build a family together. And you know, we knew early on, we wanted to name our son Christian because the the name had so much importance. Right? Christian, it means what it is. We are Christians and we knew he was destined for something very important in this world and he didn’t he didn’t fail us on that because, you know, even as a young age, he showed this incredible form of empathy and just, you know, understood how life really worked even at a young age. He had great compassion and kindness whether it was at Christmas time, she wanted to give his his gifts away to his friends. I mean, whether it was just we used to refer to him as mister Comfort as a child because he had a way of comforting us when we were not feeling well or not doing doing well. So he he just had this incredible knack. And that kinda carried all the way through his life as a teenager. You know, I always think he kids as being teenagers. They’re horrible. And their Christian was fantastic. He was just a kind and gentle soul to everyone.
Giving of his time, his love, always said he loved you. And then, you know, Christian, very talented by the way, but his biggest talents, of course, were his kindness. Christian went to college, he graduated Magna Kamblad from from college, from the Honors College here in Pennsylvania. And, you know, when he got home, he started to experience some back pain, we took him to doctors, it seemed to be, you know, he was healthy. You know, everything about him was healthy. And he got physical therapy in his back, but this didn’t seem to change. But as it got, you know, in the summer months of two thousand twenty, his pain became overwhelming and so went and course, we had blood tests and ultimately he had a CT scan to be safe. And I remember them saying, hey, they found a lesion, a scar on his liver. And of course, you know as a parent, you’re like, okay, that’s not so bad. We can, you know, you know, that could have been from birth or whatever, and then they said you need to go to Hillman Cancer Institute.
And I remember thinking, oh, no. What does that mean? I kept reassuring Christians. Okay. Now Christian through this whole thing is, It’s okay. I’m not worried about it that. You know, it’s still going to be okay. Reassure this whole family. But we went to the hospital, and this is during COVID, so I can only go with Christian. And I’ll never forget, you know, just before they walked in and telling Christian, it’s gonna be fine. You know, they were gonna sort of talk to us. Five coats walked in the door lapcoats with the mask, and I could I could read their eyes in that instant what they were about to deliver to us that I knew was gonna be life changing for Christian, life changing for his family and his friends, and ultimately they told Christian that he had a great fruit sized tumor on his liver and that this was cancer. And that it was likely terminal. At the time, we weren’t fully positive, but I think Christian knew because he asked the doctors immediately. And I money started to shake. I I started to go black. Christian put his hand on my shoulder. He looked me in the eye. He said, dad, don’t worry. Everything’s gonna be okay. Once again, comforting me in the worst of moments for him. And he asked him how long did he have to live? And he he they when they answer that question rightly so, I assume. But I knew and I think Christian knew this is what was gonna happen. Of course, we left, had to go home, had to tell his mother, what had transpired. He had to be there with us. And I remember my wife and I telling Christian that says we’re we’re obviously in shock and sad and just saying Christian, we’re so sorry that you have to go through this. You know, what this has happened to you. And I remember Christian saying, dad, mom, don’t you know, it’s okay. I would rather this happen than me than anyone else. This is my burden to take. And, you know, again, he just showed us his his way of comforting us. I can tell you that Christian not a single time from the moment he got diagnosed. To the moment he took his last breath on September first of twenty twenty one about a year later, did he ever complain? He never said, why me? He said, dad, how could this happen to me? He did the opposite. He would say, what’s good about today? And so it was his way of showing us that even in the worst of moments, in the in the most tragic of circumstances that you can truly find goodness in moments. And so he used to remind us of that. He used to say what’s good about today when we would cry and we’d be upset. We’d try not to cry, of course. Remain very hopeful. But we knew the circumstances. You know, Christian had a less than one percent chance of life even to get the five years. And with cholangio carcinoma, which is by layman’s terms called Biodec Cancer. It’s mostly seen in old people, Southeast Asia. It’s not something you find for a kid in North Pittsburgh, you know. And he so he we knew the I knew ultimately what was going to happen here. And and in young people in particular who get this, when they get it, it’s very rare.
They don’t live past six months. So, you know, we knew we were up against the fight. And so the so to to answer your question, it’s a long story to get to it, but the point being is that Christian used what’s good about today to remind us of the beauty that you can find every day even in the the most difficult of moments. And that’s what I try to do is to, you know, remember that constantly so that I can put that out into the world, remind people that, hey, here’s a kid who had everything going for him. I tell you he had everything going for him in this life.
But he was handed the worst worst thing you could ever ask for. And he turned it completely around and he thrived. He he got a job. Who goes and gets a job? With a major company because we had to stay in turn. He he took a job for four months. They hired him. He was honest when he said, look, I’m not gonna be around in the year. Just so you know. And they were like, it’s okay. You know? God bless them for doing that. But he wanted to show us and guide us that his life hadn’t stopped. And he wasn’t going to stop showing his other his brother and his sister that and us, that he wasn’t gonna stop. He was gonna continue to move forward. He he made music. He did podcast. Which are still out there and they’re very good. And he just he just had that way about him and he laughed and he he he always was making you laugh and so he was just an extraordinary human being. And I just wanna help in you know, I’m inspired by Christian, so that my job is to continue to get that message out as much as I can.
Victoria Volk: Sounds like he was an old soul.
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. He was an old soul. He probably lived five other people’s lifetimes, you know, in in the short, you know, twenty two, twenty three years of age. He had traveled the world. He had been to India. He had been to to Prague. Study abroad, state of abroad in India. He’d done a lot. He lived big. And when I say big, he was, you know even as a character, he was the lead in every musical and every play. He’d been nominated for Gene Kelly, works here in Pittsburgh, which are a big deal. He was a kid who had already done it, been in a major motion picture. And he was moving everything forward. But I think instinctively he knew that I think he knew his life was gonna be short. That’s probably why he lived so big. And we just I think it makes sense. I guess now in a sense, how big he lived that that that it was so short, but but that’s that’s what we have to deal with today. That was three years ago. So, yeah, he passed away.
Victoria Volk: What was he studying in college?
Christopher Cochran: So Christian was an international studies major. He minored in Asian studies and he was a theater minor. So he was also in in college. He was at he would be in plays and things like that. He was in comedy troops. He was also on the he was also a d I say, I can keep going because there’s so much this kid did. He was a local limelight radio station in in Indiana, PA. He was also on there as well. So which we love to listen to and just his parents, we were so happy. We loved just hearing his voice. And so, you know, we listened to him. So, yeah, that’s what he studied. And, like, he he loved the travel. He was a minimalist too. You know?
He wasn’t he was an extreme minimalist because, you know, I do pretty well for myself. You know, I’m not I always have and do well, and my kids have always been have been lucky enough to live in a a nice home, nice neighborhood, and nice cars, and all those things. Christian was such a minimalist. He didn’t even like to drive our cars. You know? He was he he just didn’t he thought any of that stuff was too showy or, you know, the act of just packing a suitcase was enough for him to to go somewhere to to meet people. Whatever was on his back was fine with him. He was very authentic extremely funny, but at the same time, incredibly compassionate about a fellow man. Just incredibly compassionate. And there’s and I’m I knew that. But, you know, as when you’re some your your son passes, your child passes, and things start to pour on. You’ve been on the website Christian crocodortorek. You can see the messages, the stories that just pour in of the legacy that he has left. Upon so many and continues to this day to leave on so many. There there’s not enough earthly words to use other than they’re extraordinary. And I’m I feel so privileged that I got to be his dad.
Victoria Volk: We never really understand or know our impact, do we?
Christopher Cochran: I think Not till we’re not here, I guess.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Yeah. What’s your favorite memory of him? Do you have a few or one that you would like to share?
Christopher Cochran: My favorite, ma’am. Well, I mean, of course, there’s so many. There’s no real favorites. I think anything where I got to be in the light of Christian was my favorite moments. I don’t you know, he he was funny. His jokes were sometimes his jokes were so they were so big. They they went over my head. They were like multilayered jokes. I and he had this because he was incredibly intelligent too. Right? He was just he had a photographic memory. He he could he had a quick wit, which can, you know, you you if you you heard his pockets, he’s just quick witted. He understood things quick. He was very knowledgeable. But, you know, my my best memories of of Christian and best stories of Christian their stories, of course, while he had cancer that are funny, But, and I can tell you that one, you know, I don’t I like to focus on the things when he didn’t have cancer, but I can tell you that I went on a long walk with Christian up to the point which, you know, he used to go on walks because I wanted him to continue to be, you know, walk and keep himself healthy and eat right and and we would go on these walks.
And it was one of the latter walks probably three months before he passed away. I don’t remember walking with him. And I said to Christian, Christian, what what regrets do you have in this life? You know? What what can you what can you put on to me? Because I always looked at Christians like a philosopher. He understood things so deeply. And and he said, dad, yeah, I have one regret. I do have one regret. I hung on every word of that regret. I said, what what’s the regret son? He was probably, like, something I did wrong or something. I yelled at the number. And he’s, like, no, dad. He’s, like, I did too much homework, and I I just started laughing. I said, what do you mean you did too much? There’s no, I I mean it that. That’s the biggest regret I have in this life that I’ve been on this earth is that I did way too much homework. I could have been doing other things, you know. And it was just and I used to just laugh because he hardly did any homework. You know? I mean, he really didn’t. This was the kid. I tell you this. His roommates would laugh because and and be so jealous a Christian. He would go to class. He never bought a book. I never had to pay for a book for college. Ever. Think about that.
He meant he he just would go to class. He memorized the information. He would take class. He was a straight age student. I remember his first year in college, he looked at me. He goes, because I was always on him. Like, you gotta get in. You know, you’d be good student. He goes, he looked at me. Is this a big scam?
Is this a scam? I go, what he means is this a scam? He goes, college seems like a scam. It’s too easy. I don’t understand. Now he’s in the Honors College too, so they’re pushing them. You know? But he he just he he yeah. He he didn’t like to do his homework. I buddy, clearly, he said he did too much homework. But he was just that made me laugh and and, you know, there’s he he just he had this incredible laugh too that I loved to just be in the aura sometimes the last year of his life, I moved all a lot of his he liked video games because he got to speak to his friends, you know. And this is during COVID. And I I always positioned my chair in the living room where we’re at that I could get a glance in to see him play his video games because I I just like watching him. You know? Because he was funny.
And he was making jokes, and he and so so I found that, you know, those moments were Christian. It’s it’s his laugh and his stories, his jokes, his his comedy, and just how he made you always feel made you feel good. He was the grown up. He was the only grown up.
Victoria Volk: You know, parents that have lost a child, especially, like, with a terminal illness. Well, I I would say anybody who has a family member that’s diagnosed with a terminal illness. There’s this phase of denial, I suppose, even towards the end, you know, it’s really difficult to let go and accept what’s happening. What did you how did you navigate that for your you and your your wife? And what advice would you impart on to people listening to this who find themselves in the same situation?
Christopher Cochran: That’s a tough question because, you know, everybody goes through it so differently and how they manage this. I mean, I’ve learned a lot, of course, after the fact, right, to so I can impart some knowledge whether someone is going through it you know, I think someone would tell me that, would I be able to take that information properly? I’m not sure I could. You know? I have learned that I’ve learned two things. One is to be humble before god. That’s my most important, you know, I’m always humbled, you know, then I I’m not I’m not worthy of his love. The the second thing is, you’re not in control. And when you realize you don’t have the control, you you kinda let go a lot of things. You can flow a little bit easier in this life, I think. But to answer your question during that time, I’ve been around and I’ve listened to your podcast, you know, and I’ve heard people talk and some people haven’t been around the end of life situations. They’ve either, you know, it’s new to them. And for me, you know, I was raised in a Luthrom family. I’m a catholic now, but who’s racing a Luther and a strong mother who was very religious. She took me a church all the time. I was an altar boy, you know, all those things. But I would my mom would take me to nursing homes, and she would So death was always sort of part of life. I understood that as a kid. I never I always accepted that as sort of the reality of how life was going to work. Certainly, it’s not I don’t like the reality that my child is taken from me. It’s in the natural order that your parents go and I’ve lost my parents and I know what that felt like and doesn’t feel anything like this. It’s different. This is like sticky glue. It’s so stuck on me. I can’t you’re never gonna get it off if you can’t. But I think The answer to your question is, I think from my perspective and how we navigated that, for me, I understood the ultimate outcome. I knew early on what was going to happen. Now, I never told my wife that. I never told my, you know, they were looking for hope. Right? And I always gave hope. I’m not a downer guy. I’m and I did. We worked very hard and we went to every doctor in the world. We went to the best facilities around this country. It had the means by which to do this. I was fortunate. Christian felt guilty. He’s his he’s dying. He feel guilty. He felt privileged. He said he felt so challenged by the guilt of that we gave him the special privileges to meet with the best doctors in the world on this, to try to solve this problem. He got on the best possible drugs, DNA’s and RNAs and sequencing. I mean, the amount of things we went through to save this kid’s life was not good enough. And but I knew ultimately time was it was always ticking in my head. Clock was always ticking. And I could hear the clock ticking constantly. And I think for my wife, I tried to shield my kids and my wife from those those the reality of that. It’s only towards the end when his body would break down in the last month when you could see what cancer does to the body and everything. But, you know, Christian remained humorous to the very end and continued to think about us to the very end. But I think the way you navigate the only way you can do is is to to push yourself forward to know that you just do the best you can. That’s all you can do and show immense love for one another. And know. You have to show love for one another when it ends too. Because that part that part of the year is extraordinarily difficult. I try not to think about it. I write about it, of course. But it’s even difficult to even think about it because there’s so much that went on that was difficult to go through, especially the last the last month and a half. But afterwards, it’s incredibly difficult for families. And for husbands and wives, statistically, they don’t stay together. And families fall apart because we don’t understand each other’s grief. And that’s true. I can tell you for the first year, I didn’t understand my wife’s grief because I might she’s grieving to me. Who else can she grieve to? And I’m and I’m grieving to her. And you cannot when two people do that, one has to, I suppose you have to listen, you have to be able to absorb it. As best you can and be there for that person to and recognize that each person is going through grief very differently. My kids are going through. Just lost their best friend, their brother. And how do I, you know, how do you navigate that and and be compassionate and patient? And so I think give yourself patience and love and give it as best you can to everyone around you. In the end, it it never gets I like to get better. It just gets it gets a little smoother, I suppose. He gets his arm is rough. And you can navigate a little bit better. You can navigate this life daily a little bit better. That’s really how we do as a family. We navigate it. I navigate life daily. It’s a daily thing. I don’t look in the past too much and I really don’t look to the future. Because the future is uncertain. I have no idea. Witten is something that I thought I understood. The future was so bright, but it got taken from me, and the family and from Christian. And so I can’t look too far in the future. I know what I have today. I know and I think that’s important. Be present. Be grateful for the moments that you have. And And if you know you’re you’re someone who’s gonna pass and and I knew with Christian, I memorized every crease on his body possible. I have it. It’s locked in my head. So I I think it’s just just making sure you do those things.
Victoria Volk: So what did that look like for you and your spouse and then holding the weight of your children’s grief as well? I mean, did you seek support each of you individually outside of each other?
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. Well, the first year, I think anybody goes through this and just doing my research, you may know better than I, but for us, it was like being a zombie. Is this if it didn’t even happen? I couldn’t even tell you that year what I remember. To me, it’s just a complete black hole because it wasn’t I wouldn’t even say it was bad. If this makes sense because the second year was the worst. And the third year is horrible too. You know, I’m in my third year. It’s still not good. I mean, it it I still it’s worse than the first year because the the first year you’re in such shock that life that turned on the dime so quickly And that happens to families all over this this world. Right? The life gets turned on the diamond an instant. And a second, life can be so beautiful and perfect. And then it gets turned and you’re upside down and you have no idea what’s Why would this happen? And you asked those questions of why God? Why God you do this? Why could you have done this to us? You know, we’re a good family. We go to church every week. We love each other. We’re always trying to do all the right things. That’s asked of us. And it still happens to us. So once you get past the whys and all those things and acceptance, I think for us it was, yeah, we did go to therapy. I’m not a therapy guy.
You know, not a a guy. I I’ve I’ve tried it, of course. And that’s a that’s something for individuals what they whatever they want to do, what’s good for them. Right? That’s why we say grieving is different for every single person. Part of my grieving or part of my therapy is talking to you. Part of my therapy is being able to talk about Christian’s story, writing the book, having interactions with others that gives me the chance to express whatever I feel and be authentic to that. Right? But I do therapy when my wife will ask me to do therapy. If she’s going and she says, hey, let’s go as a couple. I want you to come with me. Whatever she wants, I will do that. That’s no, I will do it in a heartbeat. It’s no problem for me. And I’m fully engaged with that. But you just don’t feel like I find when I come out of therapy, I feel worse. So in some ways. Because I’ve I’ve I’ve because I it is a safe space that I unload a lot in my head. And and some people can go, oh, that must feel good because you get everything out. But for me, it’s like I just unloaded and it’s too it’s it’s just I it resonates too much in my brain and I’m I’m you know, I think for for me as a person, it’s just it’s difficult. But for for most, my wife, it’s great and it works. Yes. That define the right person who’s compassionate and loving and English sentence and there’s no judgment. And if you do that, you it’s a wonderful thing. Very important to navigate it.
Victoria Volk: Your other children there close in age to Christian?
Christopher Cochran: His sister is fifteen months younger than Christian. Yeah. So they’re like, you can wait just beyond the Irish twins, as they call it? I think it’s what did the twelve months or something. Yeah, they’re like Irish twins, best friends.
She went to the same college she went to. All my kids go to the same college. It’s about an hour and a half away from here. And, yeah, they were they’re best friends and they were at college together, and he wrote all her papers. He poor kid.
He was she would rely at them. But
Victoria Volk: Maybe that was that homework he kept doing.
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. It was. It was. He was always doing things and he’s he didn’t just do it for my kids. I mean, he didn’t have his friends like friends at prestigious schools like Purdue and amazing schools and they go, Christian, I need help writing a paper. Can you help me write something and come up with ideas? And he was that smart. He just come up with great ideas and help, you know, he’s a beautiful writer. His matter of fact, during Christian’s cancer, I put this it’s actually, I think, on his website, Christian wrote his his entrance paper, just, I guess, I don’t know what they call that, but his entrance to get into grad school. So this is a kid again. In the summer, he passed away September first, he applied for graduate school in, I think, June or something, May or June. He got accepted. His paper was beautiful. And it was just all about, you know, how privileged his life was, how fortunate he has been, and he wanted to dedicate his new his life. I mean, if he survived, that he was gonna dedicate his life to helping those who were left alone with this awful disease. He wanted to be with I mean, he wanted to go over he felt that the world there were a lot of people dying overseas that had this disease. That were dying alone with someone not with them, and he wanted to be with them. So, you know, it’s a beautiful paper, well written. And so, yeah, his sister you know, was fifteen months par you know, below him. Totally different than Christian. She’s she’s in the wild one. She’s just full of energy and what was causing trouble. She’s sort of in between two boys. I I my youngest is a boy. And so she’s, you know, she’s got to fight with those two boys, you know. But the it’s a good girl, and she’s married lives in Norfolk, Virginia, married to a naval officer who serves overseas on the USS Coal. And So but she’s at work for a bank major bank. And then my younger son, he is a Nicholas. He is a junior now at the same college, studying the exact same thing as Christian at at college.
Victoria Volk: How did you support them through that whole ordeal that that year that he was when he was diagnosed and and after that? And
Christopher Cochran: Well, during the year,
Victoria Volk: I don’t Like, how do you hold all of that? Right? Like, how do you hold all of that?
Christopher Cochran: Well, my wife’s a nurturer. Okay? She’s she’s a it’s truly a beautiful human soul and she’s a yoga instructor, so she’s in tomb. She’s just just a beautiful person and beautiful. She’s nurturing. So she, you know, she’s there for those she’s there for the two kids and I think my mindset was very different then. You know, I was all about trying I’m I’m a doer, you know. Someone says, dig a ditch. And my head’s focused on digging the ditch. I’m not really thinking about everything else. I’m throwing dirt out. Right? I’m just to me, I was digging a ditch. I was I was trying to save my son’s life, you know. So it was a twenty four seven operation, you know. And I and I mean, it was twenty four seven, you know, I didn’t sleep a ton, catch catnaps when you could. But it was always my daily routine was just work, work, work, not my work. My work was doing what it needed to do, but was working on solving this challenge with Christian. And I wasn’t alone in it. My wife certainly helped. Her sister and her brother-in-law helped. We called the CC Advisory Group. We were just a client sort of this group that we get together to talk about solutions, figure things out. Where’s the best place? Don’t agree with in in I say this, don’t agree with what the doctors don’t know everything at all.
I figured out that I am the smart I was smarter than doctors shockingly. That should not be the case. But I am I was substantially smarter than doctors, that because of the hard work that the group us did, we were able when they originally didn’t find Christian’s DNA and RNA sequencing. I won’t name the facilities. I don’t want to get in trouble, but they didn’t find it through their sequencing. And it wasn’t good enough for us. You know, we’re like, I’ve got to keep searching. We’ve got to do more DNA. We’ve got to more find this out, sure enough somebody out in, I think Seattle a major DNA and RNA facility. And by the works of John and we went to John Hopkins as well, a doctor there helped us. We found the sequencing that Christian had very specific that allowed him to get onto a drug, pemigatinib, that is a full fledged FDA drug that’s out there for people with cholangiocarcinoma that can give you extra time. It’s not a it’s not a game changer, but it just gives you extra time. And we were able to find that sequencing after hard work and getting him on that drug. But unfortunately, it just it didn’t work. It just It didn’t Maybe it made I don’t it didn’t work, you know. We we we did everything. And Christian was one of the experimental kids for T cell therapy here in Pittsburgh, which the NIH in DC is one of the originators. Of this. And it’s where they basically harvest the t cells out of your body, grow it in a petri dish, grow billions and billions and billions of these things, and then ultimately shut your body down, you know, put it all back in you, and eat the cancer away from the inside. It’s the only way we were gonna win here. And I knew of one case of this happening. I knew I know her well. She’s a friend of mine. She’s very well known in the in the world of cancer. But the problem is to go on to that, he had to go off of chemotherapy for thirteen weeks.
And in that thirteen weeks, I’m sure his cancer. It it’s extremely aggressive and it attacks every part of the body. And so it was by that point, then we’re you know, it’s extremely. Once we realized the messaging, t cells were they weren’t working, you know. You get that coal. And you’re you just gotta scramble, like, fast. Get on the horn. Let’s get back on Kimo. What do we do? But, you know, towards the end, Christian just said, we had been doing experimental drugs. Guys, like, it’s okay. He never got involved. Christian never got involved his own. His own treatments. Meaning, he just said, whatever you guys wanna do, because I’m fine with it. You know? He was resigned to it all. He he was fine with it all. But I think towards the latter part where things were just not working. And he said, guys, this is I’m fine with no more. It’s okay. You know, I know I’m doing this for you basically. It’s what he was doing for us. Right? He was like, whatever you wanna do, but I’m okay.
You know? I’m at peace with what’s happening. You know? So So I’m not sure if I answered your question there, but, you know, I think we were talking about my other kids, but they, you know, they I think we’ve just for me, it was just I was so focused on solving Christian’s thing. I think my wife did a fantastic job just nurturing them. And then, you know, obviously, over time is when things were good and we’d have good days or Christian, you know, you you focus in on them and make sure they’re getting everything they need. But his his sister was at college, so she benefited from that. During that time in sense, they should have to be around it. Unfortunately, my younger son, I think, has felt the brunt of a lot of this because he was honed during COVID. And so he’s in the house all the time.
And he you know, he was there with Christian when he passed. He was in her house surrounded by his family. He was heavily involved as a as a sixteen, seventeen year old boy. That’s not exactly what you wanna have to go through. But, you know, he’s he’s he’s a good boy and he’s doing well.
Victoria Volk: Has that changed his trajectory of what he chose to endeavor in his life that experience?
Christopher Cochran: I don’t know yet. I mean, he’s obviously doing the same major. He’s had some, you know, get too much in the nick. Nick doesn’t like to Nick’s taken a different approach to everything. You know, his sister can talk about this. This is not something Nick can talk about. It’s not something that he is open about. You know? I had to make sure, you know, before I put the book out, I wanted Nick to read parts of the book that where I’d mention his name, some things I did take out, you know, things that are so personal to to Nick that he just wants to keep it for himself. Mhmm. But, you know, he he’s getting better at it, talking about it. But in terms of trajectory, don’t know yet. I know a lot of his friends, trajectories have all changed. You know, his his best friends have all changed their some are changed from being artists to now being their counselors for helping those with challenges because of Christian. There’s those who have followed their passions that they wouldn’t otherwise have followed. No one in particular is a CPA. A great job from left, graduate Penn State, CPA. Now he’s a comedian, you know, New York. He just told you He
Victoria Volk: just he just
Christopher Cochran: he just he just they just changed their directory because trajectory because of Christian that Christian because Christian of the group was going to be in many ways, you know, I say famous, but the most well known. He was from a young age, anybody in or in this whole community or neighborhood or Pittsburgh from a new Christian. I mean, he was incredibly talented and he was he was definitely destined and he was scheduled to go to LA before all this. I mean, he was destined just got he had everything he was ready and he was good looking boy had it all and he’s likable. It’s not like he had all the facets and he didn’t have this burning desire I don’t he he was okay. He, you know, you think like, oh, you better have all this desire to be the be famous. He didn’t have any of that. He just he took life as life came to him, and he got successful always doing it that way. Right? He always got everything he he whether it was grades or being in parts and things like that by not even trying. He just because he had that aura of just likeability and passion and fun to work with, and he just had that. And I always I just knew he was going to be incredibly successful. Even if he failed at something, he was just the one kind he’s not the one that let it bother him. He just was like, yeah, it’s fine. You know, like, we’ll do this, you know. And someone will be like, I like that about this this kid had something very different, you know.
Victoria Volk: He could pivot, you know.
Christopher Cochran: He pivot, yeah, he pivot on dime and never affected him. And he and I think that’s a major strength in anything, you know. And, yeah, he had that. So
Victoria Volk: Sounds like he taught everyone around him too how to be in the flow of life.
Christopher Cochran: And I talked about that in the book. Right? There’s Christian’s Dow. It’s a section in the book. And Christian believed in baptism, and and he understood the to your point, which is not flowing against the the current, flowing with the current. And he lived that very much that Christian was a strong Christian. We were Catholics. But the thing about Christian is he was very spiritual and he understood faith. He understood he respected them so much because there are a lot of similarities between all the faith. But the way Christian lived his life is does just being able to take things in and and and never afraid to be himself.
He would wear the goofiest clothes and he didn’t care. He could be bright colors. It could be googly sweaters, you know, from the eighties, you know. He’s an eighties guy. He loved his last tweet on Twitter. Is him in a wheelchair? This is the comedy of Christian. And he understood things. He’s got a a walkman on. And he goes, he goes jam into my eighties walkman or he may I I’m not gonna do this justice, but walkman, not lately. Meaning he’s not walking. I think he could just you you can’t walk anymore because of the Kansas market. Yeah. He he he just yeah. He he could make something that you would otherwise go and feel bad for him, but he would make you laugh about it. And that that’s such a unique trait to have under those circumstances.
Victoria Volk: What has your grief taught you?
Christopher Cochran: Well, my grief taught me that there’s much bigger grief than mine, I guess. There’s having a platform, you know, the book is is simply a a tool, you know. And my voice meaning people and connecting with people is the best form to understand grief. I recommend that to anybody who’s listening to to connect as best you can. I’ve connected so I I I go and I speak. Sometimes these speeches are about inspiration how to find the the light in the darkness or And sometimes it’s the students, young adults, university level, but sometimes it’s adults. And that will draw different crowds. So sometimes the crowds I will get will be those who are going through immense grief. Those who have either read the book, wanna get the book, you know something about the book, you know something about my story, and they wanna come and I make a very distinct point to try to talk to every single person who comes to see me. They’re going out of their way to see me. There’s something going on with them. And they’re using me. And I’m there to be a person to listen and to help. And so I listen to stories. And so what it’s taught me to answer your question is, The grief that I hear from others is far greater than my grief. If if that makes sense because some people are hurting so badly. I I mean, the stories I hear whether it’s they’ve lost their husband and two children. Or, you know, two children. I I can’t even fathom that, you know. So I I’m I think it’s taught me to understand my fellow, man, it’s also, breathing has helped me. To look at people as true souls. And what I mean by that is I don’t think I looked at people before cancer as souls. Meaning, when I look at someone I just saw them as a person and they’re on their way, whatever, I spend a lot of time when I sit or if I’m out in public and I watch people and I look at them and I realize they have a soul, they have a life, they something’s going on in their life, could be good, could be bad, much like all of us. And and I I think I’m just connected that way a little better now? Maybe I wish I wasn’t. Sometimes it can drag me down. But I guess it’s my purpose. You know, that’s I’m still trying to figure that purpose out, but I think that’s how I’ve learned the grief has helped me. That’s what I’ve learned from it. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: How would you describe and that kind of leads to my next question. How would you describe the Chris before Christian passed and the Chris now? You mentioned more connected, you know, maybe to even more spiritual in that way.
Christopher Cochran: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: How else would you have described yourself before Christian passed?
Christopher Cochran: I was like a lot of people. I just I had goals, money, better car, bigger house, more stuff maybe. Give I love my kids, give them whatever they need, be there for my wife. I mean, I don’t know. I was just in a different mindset.
It’s a different it’s because life is perfect, you know. I mean, yeah, there’s there’s the normal things of life. Right? I mean, we all go through whether it’s maybe not enough or bills or someone passes away or it just I mean, it’s just normal stuff. But you navigate that pretty quickly and and you’re just on to to and and I used to hear of other people who would get sick. And I would do the be part of the cookie driver or whatever food drive and, you know, but I just did it, you know. And I had compassion for it. I just don’t think I really truly get it till I’m the guy getting the food drive or my son. I’m the guy who signs out in front of my house. I’m the one who’s, you know, where they give you the pity face or whatever that is, you know.
And It’s not about me. It’s just Christian. You know, I I I think I just I yeah. I I mean, I’m not I’m just not that guy. I don’t even know who that guy is. I I I I tried to look back on that guy and I just kinda think of him as kind of a not a I don’t know. I don’t like that guy. And I I mean, I mean, I wasn’t a bad guy. I’m just saying, I’m not sure I recognize that person because now I look at life very differently. I look at other people differently. I try to give everybody kindness at the fullest extent. You know, even when someone’s mean to me. It’s okay. I’m okay with it. The old one be like, you know, say anything. Be mean right back to you. You know? That’d be brutal. But I I don’t I mean, I don’t want any of that. I don’t I want nothing to do with that.
Because I think in the end, you know, for me, it’s I think for my family too is the ultimate goal is I wanna go see Christian again. I’m not gonna get there from a do good things. It’s not gonna happen. So I I I think my focus is how do I get to see this kid again? Because I miss them.
So
Victoria Volk: How do you think it’s changed your wife in your marriage?
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. It’s changed it. Definitely changed her. I mean, you know, she’s it’s her first born. You know? He’s Yeah. It’s changed her. Totally. You know, she’s still sweet, loving, but it’s a daily routine. Right? It’s a daily it’s a daily struggle. I’ll put it that way. It’s a daily struggle. You know, in terms of marriage, we love each other and what is different? You know, how can it not be different?
Mhmm. It’s just different. It’s just different. It’s not bad. You know, I mean, we but it’s different because, you know, it’s you you you struggle you’re I think it’s a struggle for her too. Right? The witness if I go through difficult things too. Right? Doing doing talks or speaking. Even this discussion today it takes a lot out of me.
Right? It will end. When you go about our lives, it still takes a bit of chunk of my body out of me. And I think that’s the same way for us. It’s like when you talk about her, you go through it. It’s a reminder. Right? Nothing’s changed in my house. Right? And since Christian’s room is the same as when he left it, his shoes are here, his, you know, nothing from that perspective, but he’s just not here anymore.
So for her, it’s yeah, it’s it’s she’s a mother. Right? And I’m sure mothers who listen to this will get it. I mean, it’s it’s bad for a dad too. Don’t get me wrong. It is. It’s horrible. But I just think a mother has a a different connection with their children. They bore that child. They brought that child into this world. And she’s a nurturing parent. She she in a ways his kindness is driven off of his off of how she’s Raised him? We both raised him. I’m more of the tough. Get it done. Let’s go. You know, she’s soft and gentle and caring. And so, you know, I think it’s yeah. It’s tough for her. It’s tough for her.
Victoria Volk: How have you taken care of intended to yourself as a grieving man and spouse? You know, it’s easy for women to talk about self care and all of that, but when it comes to men, which, oh, no, of course. You know, you kind of alluded to that, but a lot when parents are grieving a child or a lot of the focus does go on the mother. Right? And the husband in the spouse, the father is not disregarded or not, but they don’t get as much attention.
Right?
Christopher Cochran: No. I I get it.
Victoria Volk: And so I wanna, you know, what helped you personally, like, in self care in the year’s sense, particularly.
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. I mean, it’s just staying busy. I mean, I’m a simple guy. I’m on a you know, there’s no complexity. I have I have certainly have my moments I talked to Christian a lot, so I have a relationship with Christian, you know, much like I have a relationship with God. It’s sometimes good, sometimes not so good, but it’s a relationship. I talk I just talk to Christian. That’s and I hear him. So, you know, that gives me a lot of comfort. I I can absolutely hear. So, for me, it’s it’s stay busy, stay active, stay constantly engaged, with guy things, I guess, whether it’s working on a car or just working on my business, you know, writing, you know, those are the things that occupy me. As a man. And of course, being engaged with my other children, you know, and my wife doing things. Right? It’s very important. Going on vacations together, you know. We’re gonna go to Europe, I think, this December. For a couple weeks to get away. So we do things together. You know, we’re we’re tightening it and we love being around each other.
And so I think, you know, I I try to put a lot of effort in as best I can. To those things. And most importantly, my family, my kids, talk to them every day, always communicate constantly. Sometimes my daughter does one hear from me, but, you know, like, have you just called me, leave me alone. But I just like hearing my kids, so make sure they’re okay. I mean, I’m so I’m part of, you know, it’s so funny back in my day. My parents probably didn’t care where the heck I want. You know? I don’t know if you were the same way. I was like, I I got on my bike and as a kid and when it started to get darks when I came home. And my parents, you know, they were great parents. It’s just the way life was. Right? And today, we’re like, helicopter parents. We don’t know where they’re always at. I mean, my daughter’s married, and I still have my find my iPhone. I know where she’s at all the time, you know.
Victoria Volk: She knows I turned that off on you.
Christopher Cochran: No. No. She knows they do it, you know. And she’s okay with it. She she knows that. And she’s fine with it. Plus, I think I pay her bills though. I don’t know why I still do that, but before I go to sleep at night and lame, I’m go to sleep. I wanna see where they’re at. Are they okay? Are they safe? You know, my wife too does the same thing. So I mean, so we’re probably a little obsessive on that, but you know, I think you know, it’s natural for us too. Right? We were always that way when Christian was here, interestingly enough, probably more for Christian, even before the cancer. I always you know, my wife and I would always you know, so one thing we prayed about is our whole life having kids is just to keep them safe. I don’t care about anything else. Money is irrelevant. Everything’s irrelevant. Right? Being safe, healthy, alive is all that matters because you can fix everything else. Everything’s fixable. Money’s fixable. Relationships can be fixed. You know? But I can’t fix death. I can’t fix it when they’re hurt. And I think with Christian in particular, I always was nervous about Christian. Always. I’ve never not been nervous about Christian in particular, not because he got into bad things or something like that. It’s just he was such a good kid He was always doing good things. He was just so good and a nice boy and loved us deeply. Loved his family deeply that it always was a concern of mine that something was gonna be happen. Just because he’s just too good. Can’t be this good.
I can’t be allowed to have it this good. You know?
Victoria Volk: Sounds like he had an adventurous spirit too.
Christopher Cochran: Oh, yeah. I will tell you that, like, we would go. We would go on trips as a group, and he was always the most daring of all of us. So if there was a road like like gooey like here and he Christian would be the one to take us down a beaten path. Like, he was always the one that got like, we need to go down that road because there’s gonna be something really awesome down that road.
I’m telling you, and be like, Christian, please stop this shenanigans. You know? Like, we’re we have a destination. We have time schedule. He said, no. No. No. No. No. Yeah. We trust me on this. It’s gonna be great. And we trust him because he’s smart and he Sure enough. It’d be something extraordinary, you know. It’d be like a giant mountain west and you’d be like go here and it’d be a giant crater in the middle of the desert. And and it is goofy as that is and baseline as that is. It’s like the beauty of it all, just to gather, see this. It it creates a incredible feeling and he but he knew that. He knew that he was gonna create something special for us. And so he had a way of doing that all the time, which is constant. So, yeah, he’s adventurous and always sort of creatively thinking of ways to to think differently.
Victoria Volk: What do you look forward to most in co creating in your life that has been inspired by Christian?
Christopher Cochran: Well, to continue for me, it’s the legacy of Christian is what’s good about today. Right? I think the truth is I don’t really know. I don’t again, I don’t look too far. You know, that’s my point. I really do focus on today. I focus on the moment my present moment with you. I’m all in with you. Right? I haven’t thought really other than the questions you asked me. It’s it’s just about you and me today right now. Some often students, something else and present there. But I think I have found that things kinda come my way. Right? It’s the dows them of things, I let things flow the way they’re going to flow. And in Christian’s legacy things tend to flow, come up out of nowhere. Whether it means someone wanting me to speak somewhere, whether it means someone else taking the initiative to to build something around Christian. Right? There are a lot of things that are going on around Christian that I’m not always I get, you know, if you wanna call it approval, but people call and say, hey, we’re doing this whole thing around Christian. What’s good about today, and they’re implementing it in school districts now. Right? It’s they’re working with teachers now to implement what’s good about today in K-twelve. Especially younger kids where they have a board says what’s good about today and kids come in in the morning. Right? What’s good about their day? And the first thing in the morning, and then the day they erase it the next day, come and do it again. And it’s a teaching tool prepared for teachers to be able to see how their students How their day is? Right? They can identify kids who are not having good days
Victoria Volk: of that.
Christopher Cochran: And they can see where things are not going well in certain areas. But it’s just a way to help children too young because I do believe you know, sometimes when we’re old and we don’t get this messaging when we’re young about understanding the beauty of every single day. We forget about it and we got old. And we forget about gratefulness. We forget about presentness. We forget about all those things. Because we get caught up in the minutiae of keeping up with the Joneses and doing all these things, things, you know, to dos. But I do think, you know and Christian used to have something used to call him to love list. He didn’t have to do list. He had to love list. And so I try to do the same thing. It’s just how much love can I give out today? And so I to to I don’t know where it takes me. I only know, you know, what tomorrow will come and and and new things will pop up. And and and I’m usually a yes, you know, the yes guy is like, yeah, let’s do it. Whatever it takes, whatever it is to educate, whatever it is to to get this word out about what’s good about today. Help them ask themselves that question in the morning, the afternoon, in the evening, so they can reflect and see that life was so beautiful and and and it is. So that’s my help.
Victoria Volk: I love that idea too. My sister-in-law is super intended. I’m gonna mention it to her.
Christopher Cochran: Please love to get it out there in North Dakota. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Yeah.
Christopher Cochran: That would be amazing. Yeah. That would be wonderful.
Victoria Volk: He kinda touched on it that your relationship with Christian has continued when you talk to him. How do you how would you describe how that has helped you in your healing, your spiritual beliefs around that, that there is something after?
Christopher Cochran: Great question. Well, I I firmly and absolutely believe there is somewhere we all go. I do I know this because I I actually talk about it in the book that Christian came and visited me about two weeks after his passing. So this happened prior to Christian passing, I remember being close to him and asking him with crying. I remember this. And this buried in his neck and say, Christian, I need you to do me a favor, and he said, sure dad, whatever you want. And I said, look, I I need you. You have to. You have to. Come see me after you’re gone. It’s it’s so important because we’re gonna be a wreck. It’s you know, I said, we need I need some understanding of this stuff, you know. He said, dad, I promise. I promise you. I will be back. I promise you. This is absolutely and this is a kid when he meant he said it, he meant it, and I knew it. So about a week after Christian passed, hope you don’t mind me going into the story.
Victoria Volk: No. I don’t.
Christopher Cochran: Okay. So a week after Christian passed, I was muddling down to the mailbox, down my hill. And as I’m walking down the hill to my mailbox, I can see the male carrier coming down the street. And she had a green bell in her car for rep, Christian left green. And she subsequently had written this before again and said, listen, I wanted you to know something about your son that we didn’t know. Your son, every time I’ll be on my mail routes and he saw me, he’d pull over and come and talk to me. And tell me, and he’s I don’t have anybody who does that. Everybody runs from the male person. She goes, I don’t know why. But your son was the one who would come to me and wanna know about my life and ask if I was doing good and how my life was and you know, and so she’s like, he’s so important, you know. And I was like, yeah. I hear that from a lot of people. So as I’m walking down, instead of reaching about where she’s coming out, she hands me the mail. As I’m reaching out for the mail, this beautiful blue butterfly flying. I don’t get butterflies around here. Beautiful blue butterfly huge lands on my hand. And I’m, you know, I’m in a bit of weird state anyway, and I looked at her and I said, am I am I seeing things? Because I thought maybe I was hallucinating. I didn’t know probably was on medication at the time, but she said, nope. That I’m seeing exactly what you’re seeing. And I was like, okay. And that butterfly sat there for ten, fifteen seconds, just hanging out on my hand. And I’m home in the mail, not moving. And fluttered and disappeared. And I was like, okay. And I I I always had the sense of butterflies and people talk about butterflies and what they mean. And I’m okay. It’s what it is and told my wife and showed up to another week later, a lane in bed. And I remember this as if I’m here talking to you, I was put in a position in a basement. I got I’m in a basement. I’m there’s cinderblocks I mean, it’s a cinderblock old home as if it’s just been built. And there’s a a patio walkout door, and it’s green. It’s green. Bright lights, really pretty. Oh, and oh my gosh.
I’m in somebody’s house. Why am I what are we doing here? As soon as I said that, I got moved into a foyer. And the foyer’s an old it was tile, you know, a little square tiles Mhmm. You know, kinda like bied by fives, tiles, gray. And the door is like a nineteen seventies door, eighties door had a had a step ladder windows, if you you remember? Mhmm. Couldn’t see out of them. And it wouldn’t do her. And I remember thinking, oh, great. I mean, what the heck am I? And I remember turning to my left and about ten, fifteen, feet away is Christian at a mantle fireplace. By the way, lots very bright, very beautiful. There’s two chairs sitting to the left in front. They swiveled, and there were two people on them. They were shadow a figure, but they were moving. They were shadows. I couldn’t make who they were or what they were. And Christian’s in his beautiful, beautiful hair in his one of his sweaters, smiling. He had that he had this smile that it was like, see, told you I’d be back. You know, he didn’t have to say it. And I, of course, immediately wanted to rush to Christian, you know, run. But as soon as I had started to move, he immediately was in my face. He was right there in my face. And I, of course, put my arms around him I I could smell Christian. I could and he started to talk to me. He said, hey, dad. He said, listen. I love you. I need you to tell mom everything is okay. Everything is fine. I’m very happy. Everything’s gonna be fine. And you guys need to move on. And I said, Christian, I love you. I love you. I’m just I’m talking. I’m feeling that every bit of him and you know, I didn’t see any ellipse movie and I, you know, kind of wrap me talking to me and is and and I remember by the way I should say that not only did I see these two people, I could design the whole room to you because there was like a step kitchen up there and people are mulling about in shadows. Like, it was almost like I was invited to a dinner party or something, like I was somebody’s house. I don’t know whose house. I just assumed it was Christian’s house maybe or his apartment makes sense because of the door. I don’t know, but I I know for a fact what I experienced was not a dream because I didn’t wake up. I was in this weird state. I can’t remember any dream I’ve had, honestly. The only thing I remember and was that moment and how deep it was and how real it was. And so he just faded away and I faded back into who I was. And I sat there for about an hour. Just I didn’t wanna wake up my wife. She was next to me and tell her, But I for about an hour just sat there, so I can’t believe what just happened to me. You know, I I’m just I’m in this unbelievable you know, I can’t believe it. You know? He said he do it. He did it. I went somewhere, I wasn’t supposed to go. This was not a dream. I was like, then I tried convincing, yeah, it was a dream. Oh, wait. Well, I couldn’t have been a dream. I smelled him he was real. I was there. And so my wife woke up about an hour later and I told her what had happened. It’s verbatim. She says, Chris, last night, I went out on the porch. I prayed to Christian so deeply. Just ask him to come see us come see us please.
Because I never told her, you know, this discussion I have with Christian. And then I told her this, and this is what happened. And he’s never come to visit Danielle. It’s never happened. And I have subsequently not seen Christian since then in any form of state like that. You know, I’ve had dreams that are weird and but nothing to this that was as crystal clear as this. Christian does talk to me. I do hear him. I’ll ask him questions. Sometimes about life and just the other side, what’s going on?
Sometimes I’ve tried to reach out to him, he doesn’t get back to me. It’s not instantaneous. Sometimes he’ll come back to me and with frustration. Like, what do you need now? Like, I’m I get a sense he’s very busy. So, you know, he compassionately, sweet, nice to me. Just my like, hey, what do you what can I do to add? I’m busy with stuff, you know? Any What can I get you? You know?
What do you need? And Sometimes it’s just reassurance, you know. So that that’s what I hear. It’s gotten a little less now, but I still do it. Just just not not constantly.
Victoria Volk: There’s a I I had a conversation. Thank you for sharing all of that. Mhmm. First of all, I had a conversation with an intuitive Helen Gretchen Jones. It’ll be coming out around the time of your episode too, but I’ve had other mediums that say that those who have crossed over describe it like school, and it’s almost like community. It’s like they’re in community. So when you said that, it reminded me of those conversations of how they’re never really they’re not alone. Right? They’re they’re in community with others mingling. Yeah. Yeah.
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. I’ve asked Christian that question too, actually interestingly enough, like, you know, when you die, I’ve I’ve said, oh, do you have famous? Because there’s so many people who die, you were famous. Right? I mean, this lifetime. And like are you friends with famous people? Do you hang around with famous people? And his answer is no. I don’t. You know, that’s not my and that makes sense. I do hang around with people who are famous, but they’re not people you would ever know. Like, they’re obscure famous people. Like, the most obscure people that no one’s ever gonna know, but they were in their moment, had some form of they were they were important or, you know, yeah, I find that interesting. But I much of his friends are just regular people. You know, just normal people for the most part from everything he tells me that it’s just a it is communal. It’s it’s not much different as it’s explained to me in the way that it has been explained in the short conversations, Krishna, is that it’s not dissimilar to this. In many ways, you know, there’s much to do. You’re never bored. You know, there’s lots of choices and you can be with your friends. You can you know, you can check-in on people, loved ones, you can do all those things, which so sometimes he’ll tell me things that are so above me in my brain, and sometimes I can’t even explain them. I don’t know how that even makes sense. Like, he’ll explain a a multi level thing that’s something happening that I don’t even know how to explain it. Like, I I wouldn’t even know how to I’m not smart enough to be able to regurgitate it back out to another human without it sounding like I’m completely insane. Like I it’s not like he said something so it’s just like it it has so many layers to it that it that I don’t know how to explain it properly. And just leave it with inside my brain of sort of rolling around and figuring it out as best I can.
Victoria Volk: Is there anything else that you would like to share that you don’t feel you got to?
Christopher Cochran: No. I think you’ve gotten a lot about me. Like I said, it sounds like I was in therapy here. No, I just think those who are listening who are going through grief and I think what you offer here is very important. It’s very important because Grief is something not everybody’s gonna go through.
It’s it’s a universal trait that we all are gonna have it. You don’t think you’re gonna have it. You’re gonna get it. Mhmm. But I think it offers an opportunity to explore how each of us navigate it, how best to navigate it. And ultimately, for me, it’s I I want people to remind themselves is that and I I say it, what’s good about today is because I want them to focus on today. Focus on the beauty and what you have around you right now, your family, kids, anything that can bring you a little bit of pieces of joy into your heart. Right? Because if you’ve lost someone there’s a chunk that just gets ripped out of you. And your job is just to continue to fill it with little pieces. Happiness is that elusive thing. Right? I don’t know that I’ll ever be happy. Maybe I’ll be happy when my daughter, and as you’re first born, and that will bring me some happiness. And I’m sure it will. And I’m sure I I find those things when I can. But joy, pieces of joy are what I I try to pick up along the way. So I tell people pick up pieces of joy every which way you can. Something that makes you brings you some joy in your life and I think if you continue to build upon that, you build something in a good solid puzzle in your heart and you can can learn to continue to move forward in this life, you know. It’s all very short anyway.
I mean, that that’s not the downer part of me. I’m not trying to be a downer. It’s just that when you really think about it, it’s extremely short. And you just wanna leave a good legacy. You wanna do the right thing. You wanna help as many people as you can. Help put your energy into helping others. And I think that’s that can help you in grief. Right? Helping others who are hurting. Right? It’s a it’s it’s a good way to navigate your own grief is to see other people’s hurt and help them because now you’re just suffering is it is part of the human condition. It is what we do to get closer to God. It’s what gets us closer to all things. The more we suffer. Unfortunately, I think that is by many means and at least I’ve convinced myself that I’ve been asked to suffer. My family’s been asked to suffer because it gets us closer to god. It allows us to get to where we need to be forever. This is short. That’s what I would leave.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. And it makes us more compassionate is what we’ve described as it brings out the compassion. Our suffering comes out our compassion. It can bring we have a choice. Right? It brings out our compassion or or if we project out our pain onto others.
Christopher Cochran: That’s true. And I I think suffering isn’t in the form of your own suffering, of course. But the more you take on of other people suffering know that sounds a lot of people run from suffering. Most people run from suffering. Right?
Because they don’t wanna deal with it. Right? I don’t wanna deal with that problem. But I would tell you to run to it.
Victoria Volk: You know the bunch
Christopher Cochran: of suffering.
Victoria Volk: Is the Buffalo?
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. Oh, what’s the Buffalo?
Victoria Volk: Well, Buffalo. I’m in North Dakota. Remember Right. I guess you buy some.
Christopher Cochran: Right?
Victoria Volk: But Buffalo actually run through a storm because they know it’s a shorter path to where they need to go instead of taking the long way and going around it. Buffalo actually go through the storm.
Christopher Cochran: I didn’t know that.
Victoria Volk: You
Christopher Cochran: see, I’m in Pittsburgh. We don’t get buffalo. Oh, there used to be buffalo around here, you know. It used to be a lot of buffalo, but But, yeah, you you have it, so you would know.
Victoria Volk: Bison is it’s very good too.
Christopher Cochran: I know they I see it on the menu a lot. I see it a lot. But, yeah, no, that’s I I think run the suffering. Can be a big reward.
Victoria Volk: One final question.
Christopher Cochran: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: What’s good about today?
Christopher Cochran: Good about today? Well, it’s easy. I’m here with you. I get to talk about this. I get to speak to your audience. I get to share Christian’s story. I get to remind people the goodness in the day. So today, what’s good about today is that I am here with you talking about this. So that was an easy one because and with you. So anything I’m doing in the moment is what’s good about today.
So it’s it’s definitely what’s good about today. And I I’m very appreciative of the opportunity to speak with you.
Victoria Volk: It was wonderful having you.
Christopher Cochran: Thank you. Where can
Victoria Volk: people find you if they would like to reach out? Learn more about the foundation, organization, the book, all of that?
Christopher Cochran: Yeah. So first and foremost, if you go to you could Google Christian Cocker and you’d probably pull up all kinds of stuff. If you went to christian corker dot com or dot org, you’ll find all kinds of information on Christian, which is really the most important thing to me is just that you know my son. And everything else after that is good too, but that’s most important to learn about his legacy and how he lived his life. Because I do believe that, you know, the more you learn about Christian and the things that he did, he can help you learn little pieces how to lead a purposefully driven life. You can certainly pick up my book on that website, but you can also find me at chris cochronspeaks dot com, which is where I do speaking engagements, sell the book. And the book is available on Amazon. It’s available at Barnes and Noble. It’s available for global distribution, and I hope people hope people read it. It’s a love story. So I wanna make sure people understand that this is not a, you know, certainly you can get a lot from it and learning about how grief, the navigate grief. But I try to explain this is really a love story. It’s a love story about a family. Love story about family has gone through the worst thing and how we navigated it, but telling a story about how Christian led his life And that’s the point. To me, it’s a it is a book about a purposely driven life, not my purposely driven life. That’s why it says Chris Cochrane inspired by Christian Cochrane because it’s really him. And it’s me trying to explain how he lived a life that we could all take pieces from. And do do better in this life.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. And I will put those links in the show notes. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, Podcast, season 5, Spirituality |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Helen Gretchen Jones, a death doula and intuitive channeler, shares her inspiring journey into shared death experiences and spiritual consciousness. With a rich background in art history, theology, sound therapy, Reiki, hypnosis, and past-life regressions, Helen now dedicates herself to supporting the dying and those they love in life and after death.
The innate gift of connecting with those who have crossed over has profoundly shaped her understanding of life and death, despite those around her not nurturing her gifts when she was younger.
Helen’s personal experience with grief began when she foresaw her father’s passing months before it happened—a vision that propelled her mission to help others find closure before dying. As a death doula influenced by such personal loss, she emphasizes the importance of addressing unresolved issues for smoother transitions at life’s end. Her stories illustrate how healing through vulnerability supports forgiveness and transformation.
Key Takeaways:
- Trust Personal Experiences: Embrace signs as validations from spirit teams.
- Open Dialogue About Death: Encourage authentic communication even amidst difficult conversations.
- Healing Power in Vulnerability: Allow raw emotions to foster collective healing.
- Community Support Matters: Initiatives like No One Dies Alone (NODA) highlight crucial human connections at the end of life.
This episode weaves together insights about grief’s somatic manifestations alongside practical advice for processing loss—including meditation practices—and explores how openness can transform entrenched narratives hindering healing journeys.
This episode invites listeners to keep an open mind and heart and allow curiosity beyond skepticism to take root so that healing can occur, which is often experienced unexpectedly and in the most delightful ways. The universe (and our guides) have our backs and are waiting for us to co-create with them!
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
Embracing the Journey of Grief and Spiritual Connection
In a world where life and death are often viewed as polar opposites, there exists a unique space that intertwines these experiences into one cohesive journey. This is the realm explored by Helen Gretchen Jones, a death doula whose work focuses on shared death experiences and spiritual consciousness. In an enlightening episode of “Grieving Voices,” Helen shares her profound insights into how we can foster loving connections with our spirit team while navigating life’s inevitable end.
The Role of Intuition in Understanding Life’s Transitions
Helen prefers to call herself an intuitive rather than a medium, highlighting her comfort with this term which allows her to connect deeply without preconceived labels. Her childhood was marked by interactions with deceased individuals and what she describes as her spirit team—an experience not commonly shared among peers but one that shaped her understanding of life’s transitions early on.
Techniques for Recognizing Signs from Beyond
A significant aspect of Helen’s work involves helping people recognize signs from their spirit teams. She encourages openness to subtle synchronicities in daily life—a feather at your feet when you’re thinking about someone or an unexpected song playing just when you need it most. Trusting these signs can lead to deeper spiritual awareness and personal growth.
Navigating Grief Through Personal Experience
The catalyst for Helen’s path was the sudden loss of her father—a vision she had months before his passing spurred her commitment to help others find closure before death strikes unexpectedly. As a death doula, she witnesses firsthand how terminally ill individuals transition through stages—from anger and control struggles toward acceptance aided by visions of loved ones who have passed.
Providing Peace at Life’s End
Death doulas like Helen play crucial roles in ensuring peace for both those nearing the end-of-life stage and their families left behind; they address unresolved issues creating smoother transitions filled with healing opportunities rather than fear-driven chaos often associated with dying processes today.
Insights Into Afterlife Beliefs & Their Impact On Living Relationships
Helen believes strongly in structured afterlives where learning continues posthumously akin schooling systems here earthside – helping souls understand past actions’ impacts better thus facilitating reconciliation even beyond physical existence itself! Ignoring such possibilities only frustrates spirits trying desperately communicate important messages back home again…
Her narrative suggests interconnectedness between living-spiritual dimensions urging listeners shift skepticism towards embracing creative mindsets co-creating realities alongside unseen allies guiding us every step way forward together united purposefully always onward ever upward!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello, and welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Thank you for being here and listening to today’s guest, Helen Gretchen Jones. She is a death doula, intuitive, and channeler, who writes about shared death experiences in the essence of spiritual consciousness. Her writing focuses on fostering loving connections with oneself and others, and her work emphasizes, trusting, per personal experiences and the teachings she channels from her team and spirit known as the a team. Ellen holds a dual master’s degree in art history and theology from Saint Edward’s University. She’s a certified and soundful therapy, rakie, hypnosis and past life regressions, and when she’s not working with hospice patients, writing or teaching how it can be found on the family ranch hanging out with her husband, Taylor, their children, Ty and L, and managing all of their many animals. Thank you so much for being here.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here today.
Victoria Volk: It’s been a little while since I’ve had someone who well, you didn’t say you’re a medium, but I kind of feel like that’s a little bit of what you’re talking about. Is that true?
Helen Gretchen Jones: It is. My friend gives me a hard time. She’s a medium, and she goes, hi, can we just use the word? I use intuitive because I don’t I don’t know why. I guess I’m more comfortable with the word intuitive.
Victoria Volk: Okay. That’s fair enough. It’s been a while since I’ve had a medium on, but it seems like I was just telling somebody this not that long ago. I’ve had so many instances. Almost I I think actually almost every instance of recording with somebody, I go listen back to edit, and there is always this third voice.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh, how nice.
Victoria Volk: Comes in. And I remember one in particular. It was Becky Ellis. And she was talking about her dad, and there was she was sharing a story about her dad. And this very distinct male voice was in my recording that said, no.
And so when it happens, I share it with the guest, and they’re never surprised. It seems but she’s not a medium. And so but usually, it’s been when there’s been a medium. And so I’m kinda curious after I edit this one or when I go to edit this episode if there’ll be somebody making their appearance in the recording. And I don’t include it when it goes live. Actually, no. I do. It is. And when it goes live, but you don’t hear it, I’m trying to think. You know, I’m I don’t usually play back my recordings.
Like, I don’t listen after
Helen Gretchen Jones: They better them. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. I do take out the piece and I save it to share with the guests, but yeah, I don’t know if people can actually hear it because you know I think you’ve got to be because I don’t hear it of course when we’re recording and the guest doesn’t hear it. Right? It’s only when I play it back.
Helen Gretchen Jones: And, you know, I’ve done experiments with the voice recording where you listen for the voice through the editing process, and I’ve had voices come in during editing that I did not hear when I was recording.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So you’ve had that experience.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Of
Victoria Volk: course, you’ve probably had that experience yourself. Yeah.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Well, I was intentionally testing for that, you know, just running experience and seeing. And on one, it was quite a lot. And some, of course, I don’t hear anything. But
Victoria Volk: so when did this? This is a great lead to to when did you realize this gift that you had? And does it I was listening. I was watching this I don’t know what it was on. It was a Oh, it’s unsolved mysteries. Mhmm. I think on Netflix or whatever, and there was an episode about a guy that had this has this spirit that’s been always with him since he was a child named Becky. And Like, she’s, like, his a team. Like, you were kinda talking about, like, she’s, like, on his team and helps him help people. He’s only heard her actual voice one time and it was in the presence of somebody else and it was documented and it’s pretty incredible episode actually. But when did you realize this gift that you had?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So I have been able to tune in for lack of a better word. I I would say connect. I’ve been able to connect to my team and spirit and to other spirits when I was very, very little four or five. I remember, I didn’t know it was unusual at the time. It just felt like it was, I don’t know, normal or commonplace, but it wasn’t until I was probably twelve or thirteen. When I started realizing that it maybe wasn’t normal when these experiences were shared. Like, people would be like, no. That didn’t happen or no. That person wasn’t actually there or I believe you believe that’s what you saw. So then you start to kind of put it together that maybe other people aren’t experiencing the same stuff and you have a you’re out of fork in the road at that point. You can either believe that you’re making it up and it’s imagination completely or you can trust yourself and maybe recognize that not everybody is living or having the same experience at the same time. That’s a hard age. It’s a tough age. But for me, the experiences with my team and spirit and with spirit in general were so beautiful, so transformative, and we’re desperately needed in challenging times. They made everything feel okay that when I would share it with my parents and they would say, I believe you believe that’s what you saw. It didn’t make me question my experience. It made me question the wisdom of my parents. And anyone else I shared. So I was the experiences were so transformative that it made me wonder if I could believe what they were saying. And also middle school, you know, that’s also around the time when you’re experiencing, you know, all your childhood make believe, your Santa Claus and your Easter bunny, and all tooth fairy, and all of those things. And so you start to see that maybe things that your parents are saying, maybe you need to trust your own experiences first.
Victoria Volk: Well, and how did that change, like, your friend like, did you have friends that you could share that your experiences with? Or were they, like, no. Just don’t tell me about that stuff.
Helen Gretchen Jones: You know it’s so funny. Most of them were a little more fearful, I think. And so I would keep it to myself, but what I couldn’t understand was it wasn’t fearful at all. It was beautiful and amazing and awesome. But I have some I have a high school friend that I’m still friends with that we, you know, kind of keep up through social media and on occasion when we see each other through big life events or something. Her name is Donna, and she told me recently, like, in the last couple of years,
Victoria Volk: she goes, yeah, I used to
Helen Gretchen Jones: say the weirdest things when you were little. My mom remembers it, like, when we so I guess I must have said stuff that they didn’t make me feel uncomfortable about even though it struck them as odd.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. When did you realize who your a team was? Like and when when you say when when I hear a team or when I read read a team, I was like, oh, yeah, mister t.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I know. No.
Victoria Volk: If you’re that generation, but you know, is that how you came like, how did you come up with a team? First of all, I’m just curious.
Helen Gretchen Jones: That’s so funny. So when I was decided that they were always a collective and certain personalities or voices would emerge from the collective, they always felt a bigger part of something, but sometimes I think humans need a physical appearance or a name or something that they can more readily connect to to make the, you know, bigger collective feel more approachable. So and relatable. So my collective is I they’re a collective for sure, but sometimes individual personalities will kinda pull through like a wave pulling up from the ocean before coming back in to the collective. So I decided to call them a team. It was something that popped into my mind fairly recently. I think it might have been twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, just to give a name to the collective. And my husband was like, oh, the a team. Like, the, you know, the crime fighters from the nineteen eighties or something. It’s so t. Yeah. So t. I’ve been in full. Right? That’s what he would say. So I was like, what? I named them after, you know, like, I and I thought it was so lame after that. And I wanted to be something that was like, you know, that meant oneness or that, you know, that was more singular and that represented a collective. And so I told in a meditation, I was like, alright, guys. I chose a a lane name for you guys, pick something else, and I’m throwing the ball that’s in your court, and I’ll be waiting for that really great name that’s gonna come through. And I went I left the house to take my cat to the vet and all the parking spot were being temporarily blocked by a dumpster that was being delivered to the vet clinic and it was olive green and in big bold white letters it said a team on the side. And I was just like I just left the house like ten minutes before So I was like, what? And it was in that moment that I had the knowing that a does mean singular or one in the English language, and it also infers that we are a team and they need me as much as I need them. So a team just stuck after that.
Victoria Volk: Oh, I love that story. I’m so glad I went there. But it brings up the synchronicities that we experience in life that we really don’t often pay attention to and unless you have like this tuned inness Mhmm. About yourself. You probably will miss a lot of these synchronicities. What do you say to people who want to tune in more and learn who their team is and who their guides are? Like, what are some steps that people can take?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So I have a small group of women who come and sit with me and I co teach with another woman here in my town of Austin. We have a little thing that we kind of put together and we just talked about this. How can we receive signs and synchronicities more clearly because I receive them literally. They come in like there’s no doubt, whereas my friend who’s the medium, who gives me a hard time for not using the word medium. Her name is Keisha.
She doesn’t get them like that. She doesn’t get them like in your face signs, but she has she has a sudden knowing or a feeling of that makes sense when she sees something. For me, I ask for a sign in advance. So it’s gonna be different for different people. For me, I say, okay, guys. I believe I just received a message from me that was pretty clear, but this is a big one and I need validation for this. You guys are gonna need to send me a sign. And then I just take a deep breath and I say, okay, and the sign is gonna be, and I let them place a sign in my head. It’s usually comes through as a thought or an image. I let them pick it because they have a very broader perspective, like a a a bigger vantage point to see what I’m going to be experiencing in the next couple of days based on the choices I’ve made so far and the intentions behind the choices I am currently making.
So they’re gonna place a little something in my mind. So if I chose, for example, I saw a symbol of a rose. Well, it’s not gonna be some random person. It’s gonna come and just hand me a rose on the street. I suppose that could happen.
But more likely, I’m gonna go through Starbucks and the person who’s scanning my app is gonna be named Rose. Or if I go check out something at the grocery store, the person’s gonna have a Rose tattoo on their arm. It’s really not being dismissive of the little things. And when you can be that aware of those subtle synchronicities, Well, spirit gets real excited. They’re like, yes, we got through.
Now, what else can we deliver? What else is she willing to see and recognize as part of, you know, a greater whole of what’s happening around her? My friend, Keisha, She is different. She says, okay, I’m gonna wait for a sign. She doesn’t ask them to tell her what it is. She’s just going to go about her day and all of a sudden she’s gonna feel, I think that’s my sign. I think that’s my knowing that this is validating the information that was coming through earlier. So I think it’s gonna vary by person. I always tell my team I need a huge sign. Don’t make me guess or second guess it. So I look for those very, very literal signs and I get them, which is amazing.
Victoria Volk: So I I’m a Reiki master. I do energy healing work. I work with Grievers. You know, I’m I I should be I feel like I should be more entuned. You know? I I feel like I’ve been frustrated because it’s like I ask for specific signs, but I like how your approach is where you’re just asking for the sign to be given to you. Like, what will be the sign? Yes. I like that approach and because I feel like it’s it’s caused me to feel doubtful of myself. It’s caused me to feel unsure. And so but when I’m in a session with somebody and I’m working with their energy field and that feels very sure to me. You know, at the moment, you know, so that I can’t it’s difficult for me to reconcile, like, the stuff for myself. Like, what what you just talked about, that’s where I’m struggling. And so I like your approach that you shared in how you do that. Mhmm. I might might try that for myself, so thank you for sharing that.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Sure. It was actually taught to me by someone else. By the way, I’m glad it’s working out.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So let’s change the subject to grief because that’s what whole podcast is about and what your work is about as I’m a death doula too, trained death.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh, fantastic. Okay.
Victoria Volk: But I have yet to figure out what that’s gonna look like for me. And so I’m very anxious to hear how you’ve incorporated that into your work and how you support the living as a death doula. Right? So Yes. A lot of questions, a lot of things there. Let’s put a pin in some of those. And hopefully, we don’t forget what we want to talk about now. But so as a child, you mentioned that you very young age, you recognize this gift, but had you had a lot of death in your life and in your family? Around that time when you first discovered this? Was it family that was coming to you who had deceased? Or
Helen Gretchen Jones: It was in some cases, it was my for example, some of my grandmother’s deceased relatives. She had a lot, you know, know, during the Great Depression, there were a lot of people having a lot of kids, and it was a different time back then. So she had lost some of her siblings. And I do remember some of them coming through. So even now, it’s confusing to me when I insist in my memory that they were there for a family event, and they’re like, no, they were deceased. But in my mind, they were there. I think when you’re little, sometimes it’s hard to differentiate. But I didn’t start working with dying people until I didn’t feel the need to, until after twenty fifteen. Twenty fifteen was when my father died. He was young. He was in his fifties. And it was relatively unexpected for the family. It was not unexpected for me, five months before his death, I had been given a vision of his death. And he was he had cirrhosis at the liver that was health related. And I think his death being so unexpected for specifically one of my sisters and for some of his siblings even. There was a lot of closure that didn’t get a chance. There was so much stuff that was left unsaid and there was a lot of hurt and pain that people were holding on to from past actions. And and I thought, gosh, if when I heard about a death duel, I thought if there was any way that I could navigate someone else’s deep loss like that and and help them not have all these things left unsaid. If I could help them to find closure, then that’s what I wanna do. And so that’s what led me down the path of being a death doula. And once I chose, went all in, I committed, this is what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna help the people who are dying and the families. My gifts started to change and evolve towards that. Because before, I was doing more raky and sound bowl and it was a little bit more dealing on an individual basis what that person needed, especially some shock work, things like that. But once I moved into working with people who are dying, my gift started to evolve towards the people who are dying. So it shifted for sure.
Victoria Volk: So when you’re so you work with the people who are dying,
Helen Gretchen Jones: I do, specific. And their families and their families and their family stuff.
Victoria Volk: Okay. What does that look like? I’m just curious for myself personally. Like, what does that look like? Is it, you know, helping them, yeah, I’ll let you explain.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Sure. So it depends on who hires me, or I also do volunteer work. So it’s both of All of that matters based on what you’re working with. So if the family hires me, then usually means that the patient’s a little more close minded to their process that’s coming up for them, their dying process. If it’s the patient that hires me, it’s usually because they feel like the family hasn’t come to terms with what they have come to terms with. And so it really depends on what direction I’m going to be going in, but ultimately you’re working with both family and patient. It has been my experience so far that when the patient first receives a diagnosis of a terminal illness, then you’re they’re gonna be first able to fight it. What can I do to to live longer? How can I keep death at bay? Nobody ever wants to talk about death. It’s such a taboo topic, especially in our western civilization. So we’re looking at it’s unlucky. Oh, don’t say that. Oh, you know, that’s not being positive. That’s being negative. When in reality every single living being has to die. Every plant animal person, it doesn’t matter, cells, molecules, everything transitions to a different state. So instead of focusing on it being a negative thing, a bad thing, a horrible thing. If we were to shift our perspective and really make it about this is what’s happening, now how can we make it the best possible? You know? And yes, we’re all gonna grieve. We’re all going to feel sad about the physical loss of our loved one. Of course, that’s part of the process. Nobody on this planet will not experience that. But knowing that we have to go through it, what’s the best possible way to go through it and how can we heal hearts beforehand so that any of that pain and hurt doesn’t have to continue to shape the lives of those left behind. So that’s really what I’m doing. And that’s on a case by case basis. So sometimes when a purse oh, I guess I go back to what I said. I’m so sorry. I kinda got off topic a little bit. First, we’re really angry, and we try to fix it and keep it at bay. And But once we accept that this is happening, that’s when fear sets in. People feel fearful over the process of dying. And they they then look for a little bit of control. What can I control now? So they start to do their paperwork. They start to I want you to have this, I want you to have that, I want this person to come, I want this, you know, they start to try to control their environment. And then in the last week or two before death, that’s when we start to see some pretty amazing things. We start to see Our loved one who’s dying starts to see people who are coming that have already transitioned. They start to see beings of light. And the reason that this is important and should not be considered something to be medicated or that we need to convince them is not actually happening. The reason this is important is because that removes the fear that people have around death. When they start to have a foot in both worlds, they start to see that they’re not alone, and it’s okay for them not to be fearful of the next space and someone’s coming in and slowly introducing the next phase to them so that they’re comfortable when the time comes. It’s really a really amazing important phase. And in addition to that, it gives the loved ones hope that there is something more.
So All of these phases are really important in the in the dying process. And as a death doula, when you’re there, you’re navigating each individual phase and meeting the person right where they’re at with the ultimate goal of peace.
Victoria Volk: Had a guest. His name is Chris Kerr, and he had written a book. He works with hospice patients. And he had has done a lot of research on the dying process and wrote a book. Death is about a dream, and he had a very interesting take on it. And he was actually part of the Netflix documentary or series surviving death.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh.
Victoria Volk: So I’ve had a lot of different types of people on this show. But in your personal experience though with your dad, when you learn that information, like, did you keep it to yourself? Did you share it? Or
Helen Gretchen Jones: So when I my dad’s death was the first close family death because it’s your parent. And when I received that vision, it was my first vision that I’ve received as someone dying. And I journaled it because I was, you know, always journaling and meditating doing doing doing things like that. I told my husband and a neighbor about it, and then I let it go. In the vision, me, my dad was in a hospital bed, And he was his by the way, let me just say, my dad was a good old boy. He lived out on a ranch all alone with his dog. You know, he didn’t want any kind of he wanted to be off the grid. I mean, he was you know. Okay. So he was buried Texan, buried. And so his biggest fear, one time he told me, I found out that he hadn’t told his sister or any of my sisters about it either or his mom or anybody. Was that he feared dying alone and that nobody would find him for days. So when I had my vision and he had die was dying in a hospital, that was an unusual thing for him because, yeah, my dad would not have just gone to the doctor of the hospital. He was out on the land. So he was in the hospital. There was a number five flashing above his head. The hospital walls were this bluish green color, and he he was young still in in that vision. And my daughter who was just a baby. I mean, she was a little at that four or five, I think. And she was holding my hand and she looked to be the same age and I thought he’s gonna be dying soon. So I journaled it he’d been he’d been staying with me in Austin, which is where I’m at, and he he lived down South Texas. And he’d been drinking all day. He kept extending his stay because he couldn’t get behind the wheel to drive. He was watching politics really loud. He was a smoker. My backyard was littered with cigarette butts. He brought his dog. I had cats. It was just kind of a chaotic mess and I didn’t want him to feel unwelcomed, but it was very, very frustrating for me at that time. Of course, I love my dad, but it wasn’t an enjoyable experience, I should say. So by the and that’s when that vision happened. So I was really kind of focused on how can I get my dad to go back home? And this is, you know, really certain that the quality of that of of my family, now my children, my husband, it was I mean, it was a chaotic time. And the holidays were coming. The kids were starting school. I had a lot going on, so I just pushed that vision aside. It was my first vision. How do I know if it’s right? I wrote it down, told a couple of people that was it. Well, five months later, on February fifth of twenty fifteen, all those fives, while he was in his fifties, the whole thing started at five o’clock in the morning. He was in rehab. He’d agreed to go to rehab at Christmas, and he was in rehab, and they found him kind of out of it in his room, took him to a hospital. And that’s the only way he would have ever been in a hospital. And sure enough, we get there. The hospital has blueish green walls, and it’s all unfolding exactly as the vision. And I needed someone to watch my daughter because it was a two hours away and my neighbor called my neighbor said, can you get my daughter for school? And she was like, remember that vision you had? I was like, oh my gosh. She was the one that reminded me about it. And so since then, now that I work with people who are dying, I do get ballparks on on people’s death. Ballparks, not like February fifth at five AM, nothing like that. It’s gonna be it’s just like three weeks. You know, approximately two and a half years. I’ve got one that’s approximately four years. So I do get these ballparks on people now, but that gift is new since I started working with people who are
Victoria Volk: dying. Wow.
Helen Gretchen Jones: But when I first got it, I just wanna share. When I first got it, I thought, am I supposed to stop it? Now I felt this responsibility. Was this but that’s what movies teach you. You know? They’re just like, oh, someone got a vision. They have to go stop. Someone’s No. It’s my belief and that could change, right, based on experiences. I’m always trying to see what what I’m interpreting is correct or not. But it’s my belief that when a soul decides to die, then I’m able to pick up on that wave or that packet of information that’s already out there. When that soul has decided. So while the personality of my dad may not have decided to die, he wouldn’t have wanted that. On a soul level, he did. And so when that soul made that choice, that’s when I was able to receive that information. So I believe someone that is close to me now when I got I was cooking spaghetti and came right over me four years. I’m just like, so on the soul level that person has made the choice even though their personality has not. So, yeah, that’s I hope I answered your question.
Victoria Volk: I feel like I’m in a trance just watching and listening. That’s fascinating. I don’t know how I would feel with that information, like, what do you do with it?
Helen Gretchen Jones: What’s so interesting is his mom, my grandmother, after my dad died, I told her about the vision. And she was like, if you ever get one on me, you better tell me. Most people tell me if you ever get one on me, do not tell me. Right? So shortly after that, I did get one on her. And I I got it in December, and I was like, oh my gosh. Do I tell her, you know, do I I had a real knot in my stomach about it. And she’s a loved one too. She is. She is. And she told me to tell her. And so but I was really struggling with this because at that point, I was believing that by telling someone to you then, is it like, like a Shakespeare play? Are you making it happen? Because now you’re putting it in their their field and it’s gonna You know what I mean? So I was really struggling with what does it mean to have a vision. And so I went ahead and told her and she she did die within two and a half years just like the vision. I think it was eighteen months. I think now I can’t remember what the vision was. I’d have to go back to my journals and look. Was it two years or eighteen? I said maybe eighteen months to twenty four months. I can’t remember now, but she hit the mark. And I was just like you’ve got to be kidding me. Is it because I told her? Is it because And so I struggled with that.
Now though, like I mentioned earlier, I believe it is when a soul decides that’s how I’m It’s not my responsibility
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Helen Gretchen Jones: At all. But what it does is allow me to prepare the people around them and that person or their big transition. So what would have been nice had I insisted one of my sisters come with me to family weekend when my dad was in rehab and knowing that my dad had a shortened time and really allow her to express how she was feeling and her hurt and pain and allow him to at least have the opportunity to work through some of that. Same with my grandmother because we knew she got cancer shortly after. We were able to work through that.
She had all of her stuff, her all her ducks in a row, she said everything she wanted to say, everybody said their final good buys because they were expecting it. So I think that’s why I’m given that information now is because on a choice I’ve made to work with people who are dying. So now it’s like, I don’t have to tell anyone what their ballpark is. That’s not the important part. The important part is to allow me to have a time frame in which to work with them or their families bring about the greatest amount of peace for the transition.
Victoria Volk: Full body chills. Let me ask you this. So having this gift as a child and growing into your teens in adulthood, so your perspective of grief is obviously very different from everybody else around you. And you said that, you know, it was like it challenged you to believe your parents and what they were telling you. Like, I believe it happened to you. But, you know, what were the things about grief that you that people were telling you that you didn’t believe and what has your grief with your father and the work that you’re doing, what has that all taught you now?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So I’ll start with my dad and then I’ll talk about my childhood. So my dad’s the grief around my dad was profound and that was I probably was I call it a funk. I wouldn’t say it was a full on depression, but after his death and parents are supposed to go before their kids. I felt like I had a good relationship with my dad. Like, there was no reason for me to feel that way.
But I think I was also processing the grief of the family. The grief of the family was deep, and my grief was profound, but I have to say that his death was the catalyst to me helping other people through their grieving processes. So it’s been a very important of death that has and he comes through, you know, he’s a better communicator in death than he ever was in life. Mhmm. So this has also been a process for him. So even though he has transitioned to a different state, of being his molecules or moving a little different faster rate than ours. I think this has given him the opportunity to move through his process. We don’t just it’s been my experience so far that we don’t just die and suddenly everything’s fixed. Everything is perfect and we’re suddenly all knowing. It’s nothing like that. We have a higher perspective. We have a greater understanding. We recognize how our actions affected those around us. And I think that working with me now, my dad has the opportunity to sort of work through what he feels was maybe causing grief to the people he’d left behind based on his action. This is an opportunity for him to sort of heal some of that with us left behind. And so in that way, my grief and the grief of the family has been very important into serving other people who are working through grief, growing up. And I think that this is not uncommon. I hear it all the time. People who have had challenging upbringings, you know, moved around a lot. Maybe my mom got married a lot, and we lived with our grandmother half the time. And so there was a lot of emotional and mental patterns that needed to be broken, a lot of cycles that needed to be broken through my my mom and her parents and different things like that. So they were dealing with constant grief, regrets, and and challenges on their own, which affected how their children were being raised. Luckily for me, I had my team in spirit who would come in because, you know, in order to get a little bit of peace, I would go sit in an empty bathtub and close the door as a little kid, and that’s where I would find a loan time. And I could just focus on the silence. And it was at that time, sometimes, not every time that my team would come in and they would they would never tell me, you know, they would always tell me everything’s gonna be okay, but they would never tell me what I was seeing or witnessing, but they would suggest other perspectives to help me understand perhaps. The decisions behind my parents and grandparents. And that would help me realize that maybe it isn’t all about me. When when you’re a kid, everything’s about you, you have to be or you wouldn’t survive. Right? So and you start to recognize their own hurt and their pain. And it was maybe more of a gift for me to be able to see that early on because of the suggestions from my team and spirit. But there’s a lot of grief in my family that needed to be worked through. And so I feel like maybe perhaps there’s a lot of just grief that is around me, and so I’m being given an opportunity to help other people find peace in that.
Victoria Volk: I had another guest. She was a medium. That once said that there was a parent that had lost a child and the child had died by suicide. And the child came to the parent through this medium. And she said, you know, told this mother that he’s in school. Like, that’s how he described it. Like, he was in school. And so when you were talking about how your father is, like, he’s through you. Is that right? He’s kinda working through his transgressions as in things that he did maybe to others in the physical plane. Like, it’s his school. Like, that makes me think of that. Is that how it comes to you or how you would describe those on the other side kind of describe it as well?
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yeah. Actually, when you mentioned that, so when I sit with other people for an intuitive reading and their loved ones come through almost every single time, they show me classes. And it’s such an interesting thing because you’re thinking, oh, like, classes, but you that’s literally what it looks like. It looks like classrooms. It looks like gatherings on green lawns. Even like it’s gatherings of people with an instructor or some person who has experience in that one field. So one of the things my dad has shown me would be communication. And working with how to communicate more effectively, how to communicate cross, you know, more I don’t know what that would be, like, from physical to non physical dimensions. People have shown me I have one client whose mom showed me that she was studying the stars. And I know that sounds kind of silly or just like the like astronomy or, you know, like, but yes, apparently there’s some there she’s showing me studying celestial bodies of some sort. And this was an interest that she was kind of moving her soul into that direction for a little while. And I do, I see it as classrooms. But these are not like our classrooms that we have here. They’re just so much more hands on and they’re they feel huge. And they feel connected and they feel just expansive. So, yeah, it’s like a school even over there, classrooms and learning potentials and how awesome is that, or we’d get so crazy bored just playing a harp on the cloud somewhere.
Victoria Volk: So what do you think is the most frustrating in your experience that people who are trying to communicate with us on the physical plane? What what are the frustrations that you receive?
Helen Gretchen Jones: That people in spirit are having?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Helen Gretchen Jones: That we’re dismissive, that we dismiss signs, that we don’t allow. There’s okay. Well, here’s another thing. That we don’t allow. We dismiss imagination as make believe instead of allowing our imaginations. Like, we’re here as humans on this planet. We came here to experience this physical reality And part of the best thing about being human is we get to create and co create our experience on this planet. That is like like, that’s like the best part about being here. So your your mindset, your thoughts, your perspective, your choices, your everything is co creating your experience here. So in order for that to happen, you have to come up with an idea or set an intention or imagine it. But when you we have the setup thing that imagination is pretend and it’s not thoughts create things. They create worlds. So when you’re sitting here wanting to connect to spirit and you’re imagining sitting on a park bench in New York or whatever you want to do through a guided hypnosis or meditation, and you say, okay, I like a loved one or one of my guides to come sit next to me on this bench and then they do and then they give you a message and you’re like, that’s nice, but I imagined all of that because I wanted it and I created it and we dismiss the cocreation with spirit. Spirit’s like great. She’s setting up a bench in New York for me to come sit on. I’m gonna do it and now she’s gonna dismiss it because she thinks she’s completely imagining it instead of reframing imagination instead of his make believe but calling it co creation with Spirit.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I love that. Got it. Maybe you think of something else and then it slipped my mind now. Maybe you know what it was.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I just I just I I hope that anyone who hears this would consider doing a guided meditation or a hypnosis session, whatever works best for you. And to realize that all these words that we put on it, like, it’s a hypnosis session, it’s a, you know, raky event, which is, you know, an energy healing, doesn’t matter what you call it. It’s what the intention you place behind it. Words can be just semantics because once we put a label on something, we limit it, you know, anyway. So just know that you’re here creating this world And if you choose to connect to your team and spirit or to god or to angels or whoever, then do it and don’t dismiss it, write it down. And you’ll start to recognize that discernment will strengthen. You’ll start to be able to interpret messages more strongly. And less through the filter of your human mind. It’s a fantastic way to connect.
Victoria Volk: So how can we connect to our team? How do we know who our team is? How do you
Helen Gretchen Jones: think about that?
Victoria Volk: Who is your team?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So okay. So my team is a very large collective, and it’s a group of, you know, angelics, ascended masters, ancestors, alternate dimensional beings, aliens, like it doesn’t matter. It’s whatever physical body you wanna put them in, it doesn’t matter. But for me, I like having a physical archetype body that can step forward in my thoughts as a way of connecting. So there’s a few that have come through pretty regularly more than Sometimes I’ll just see one one time and that’s it. But I have one whose name is LIRA. I heard her name LIRA or LIRA LIRA LIRA and she always comes through as this blue light. So sometimes she looks elderly, sometimes she looks young, but she’s blue. I was like, okay, I just focused one night on meeting one of them, and she was the first one that comes through and I’m like, okay, well, I’m gonna need sign this week. I’m gonna need to hear your name three times for me to know if that’s really your name and that’s gonna be something I can all week long. That’s what I’m gonna need. And it happened. So I had a friend come up and talk to me. Guess what I just learned about the constellations. There’s constellation. They mentioned the Leerink constellation or, you know, something like that. And I was like, I didn’t really need to hear that whole conversation about the constellations, but it was important that I heard that name mentioned. Then there was another someone said, hey, I’m sending you an audiobook you need to listen to was my neighbor. And the opening credits was talking about someone named LIRA. And I was just like, oh, okay. There’s never I didn’t even read the book. I only think I needed to hear the opening credits. And then a third person was I was having a session done, and she goes, you have a guy named LIRA. So I know that now that’s like an actual intuitive coming in. And but it was and I was like, I do. And you’re the third third validation. And then another one, and this is a strange one. It’s a guy named kissinger. K? I only know of one kissinger, and he’s still alive, and he’s a political figure. And but that was the name that I heard. And I was like, okay. That is so lame. Like, I even looked at what kissinger meant, and it’s like farm or bOG or something. It wasn’t something that meant like, you know, I don’t even know what I was looking for, but kissinger was not it. But I was like, alright, guys, three times you know the rule. Right? Well, I got it three times in one night. I had gone before bed, I’d gone to Barnes and Noble’s. And apparently, there was a right when he walked in a whole display.
I guess, kissinger had done a book or something fairly, like, in the last seven or eight years or something. And there was a display right when I walked in. I wasn’t even gonna go to Barnes and Noble’s. It was right by Old Navy, and I just swung by because I had some extra time to kill. Okay. So anyway, so there it was. Okay. And then I go home, I’m like, fine. Okay. I go home. I literally lay down in bed and just turn on the TV person that pops up is a is a documentary on. Kissinger. I was like, that’s two, you guys. And then my husband and I run a photography rental business. I’m I’m in the studio now. And somebody texted me, hey, do you have this and this and this equipment? And one of the words was kissinger. And they said, that’s so weird. It corrected. Auto corrected it. I meant the word to be profoto, which is nowhere near the word kissinger. Yeah. So I was like, that was my third one. So I got kissinger all in one day. So I’m like, okay.
I called one of my guys kissinger. So anyway,
Victoria Volk: that’s very unique names too, by the way. Like, very unique, like, LIRA and kissinger. Like, under so weird. You know.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Right. But I asked for validation, and I said I needed to hear it three times in the week. And then I didn’t start trying to connect to an individual guide until the other one was confirmed. So that’s how I did it. And there are people I frequently see people’s guides, and so I can connect people to their guides. And I have several people who are intuitive to do the same thing with guides. But my thought is to come up with your own name. You can call them whatever you want. Call them Frank. And then they will make sure Frank is validated three times because they don’t care what you call them. The most important thing is that you’re willing to connect to them and that you interpret their message and their messages are always beautiful.
Victoria Volk: So is your dad part of the a team? Or is he just kind of a special guy that just that you choose when you connect to? Or is he kind of like, no, I wanna connect with you now. This is we would need to have this conversation now.
Helen Gretchen Jones: That’s really interesting. And I would be I would love to hear other people’s feedback on their experience around this. I have found that when people transition, they’re really loud and clear and available very frequently the first year. Then after that, it’s like they’re kinda like, alright, I’m ready to go start my own class, my own stuff, you know, which I know time isn’t linear over there. So at least I understand that to be the case. So in that, why is it a year? It just seems to be that people tend maybe because weren’t they don’t they’re not needed as much. That first year after someone dies, we’re constantly reaching out to them on a heart level, you know, grieving them. And so maybe that’s why they’re around so much. So if my dad pops in, I call them a part of a team, but he’s he comes and goes. I have some that are more static. But for the most case, a lot of my collective that’s why I like to call them a collective is because they’re not they come and go as as as I need.
Victoria Volk: Just this morning, I was watching the news and Well, last night, there was the Dodgers and Yankee’s game. And so on the news this morning, it was all about the Dodgers player. And I don’t know all the names. I don’t even remember, but it and it doesn’t matter. I wanna speak to the synchronicity of it.
And I was just, like, sitting there, like, And I’m wondering if anybody else is watching this like, wow, that is really crazy and synchronistic. But I picked up on it. It’s the the dodger that he hit a grand slam home run run through like last night. First time in is it the first time in World Series history? I’m not sure. I don’t think so. Because the last time it happened, I think, was another dodger. However, many years ago, many, many years ago, who had a limp leg just like this dodger. And it happened at I can’t even remember the time right now. I should have written it down, but it was, like, a minute, within a minute apart.
The grand slam, like, both of them. Like,
Helen Gretchen Jones: this domestic.
Victoria Volk: And it was like and I don’t know if the other dodger is passed on by now. I I would assume he has. I’m not even sure. I’m gonna have to go down rabbit hole on that. But it just was fascinating to me. Like, there there is something about that that just caught my attention. You know?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I think if it catches your attention, then you should go down that rabbit hole a little bit because I think that plays into your general awareness of synchronicities. And so maybe someone’s trying to get your attention as well.
Victoria Volk: That could be interesting. So have you gotten a ballpark on yourself?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I have not. That’s a really good question. But when I sit down to do meditations, they tell me that this is a short life. This is a they always say, dear one, young one, something like that. They Dear child, whatever.
They But they tell me that this is a short life for me. So I either have to acknowledge that it’s a short life because I’m human. And this relatively speaking is a short life, or I could go tomorrow. So knowing that this is a short life and that perhaps on a soul level, maybe I’ve already made that choice and I’m not aware of it. Yeah. I mean, it could happen. I can get diagnosed next year, like who knows tomorrow? I don’t know. So I I try to live each day in the flow. I ask myself, am I in the flow of where I wanna be right now? What is the most exciting thing that’s lined up for my day? That’s what I’m gonna choose first. And so, like, if you’re at home, like, I got to have a day, I think, last Thursday, which was housecleaning day, that sounds kind of lame, but gosh, I feel good when it’s done. And so I just kind of looked at all the chores which one do I wanna do first? Which one excites me the most? You know? And I would just do that one first. It doesn’t have to be like you’re always going to the club or, you know, doing something profound like writing a book or reaching out at a seminar. It didn’t have to be that way to seek excitement your day. For me, laundry was the least exciting thing it got saved at the end. But but what was most exciting was for me, unloading the dishwasher and loading it. That was the first thing I started with. So it can be even the little thing. So if I find that I’m in the flow of life, that sort of dictates where I’m going because I do believe my life here will be short.
Victoria Volk: So how have you utilize this gift in your life personally? Through personal endeavors, careers, relationships, and how has that shifted from probably your teen years? Well, even maybe young adult years to to now.
Helen Gretchen Jones: So it shifted a lot actually, but I’m going to give a lot of credit to my team and spirit, or I’m going to give credit to myself for being open to the teachings from my team and spirit. I can say that as well because it’s easy to dismiss. That can be subtle sometimes. But when you’re first born and you’re a kid and you’re a teenager, you are so self centered. You have to be for survival. You are recognizing the patterns of your family. You’re looking to see how you can fit in the most how you could stay out of trouble the most, you know, what what lies is an okay thing to do and not everything is based on observing your surroundings, changing your self to fit in both at school and at home and on every level. And all of that is part of the growing up process and trying to figure out who you are in this big old jumble of personalities. So it wasn’t until I was a young adult doing everything I thought I was supposed to be doing. Because what everybody else told me I should do, which was, you know, graduate high school, go to college, get married, have kids. I mean, it’s just kinda like you do what you’re told, what everybody else’s dreams are. And if something happens in your early adulthood, where you start to recognize that you’re different than how you’ve maybe allowed yourself to be this whole time. And my team and spirit, that’s when they started coming around when I was in my early twenties and trying to really force compassion. And compassion is something that’s really hard to have unless it’s like a beloved person or animal that you’ve lost in childhood because you are so self centered and you have to be in order to survive and thrive. So when my team started pushing compassion, they would say, put yourself in their shoes, but not how you would do things differently, not how you would change it, not what you would have done to fix it, or what you could do to fix it just be. Just be in their shoes and experience what they’re experiencing. And that quickly takes you out of that me me me mindset. You know? And so I think that was important to moving me through upcoming grief understanding other people’s grief and having sympathy for that and helping me to navigate who I am as a person and be more understanding to who everybody else is and less judgmental because man, it’s easy to judge others because you always think you have the I wouldn’t have done that. I wouldn’t have done something differently, but that is the mindset of someone who is twenty five and younger. No. But it’s time to move past that when you’re no longer a child. And you can make your own choices and it’s important to consider how you fit in the other part of this world without having to compromise who you are.
Victoria Volk: Would you say that as a child and as an adult, you as a person are an empath or highly sensitive because I I always thought they were kind of the same, but they’re not, like in a highly sensitive person isn’t necessarily an empath, but an empath is always highly sensitive is what I’ve learned. What are your thoughts around that? And I think as a child for me personally, and because when I was listening to you speak, that was something I think that came natural to me. Like, I felt everybody’s stuff so much. Almost too much. I didn’t know what to do with it. I had to I lost my father when I was eight. My grandmother the year before that, there was just a lot of stuff and chaos in my life. And so it was like I needed a lot of sleep. It was like a curse to me. It was really was a curse. And so what what would you say to that? Like, what was your experience around that? And, you know, would you consider yourself an empath?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I wouldn’t have my sister was extremely empathic and sensitive. I would say she still is. And like you, she slept a lot. She couldn’t it made life feel so overwhelming sometimes for her, and she’s still very much that way. And she kind of scooby doo’s. That’s what I call it when you’re just kind of running in one spot, but don’t go anywhere. You know, you’re kinda like in a rut a little bit. So she has a tendency to do that based on her feelings and the feelings of everybody else around her can be so overwhelming. She’s extremely sensitive in that way. I was more walls up, put up walls, put up shielding and really kept myself from being overly involved because I couldn’t trust. I couldn’t trust that we weren’t gonna be moving tomorrow. I couldn’t trust that the person that my mom recently married is gonna staying around. And so I never allowed myself to indulge in the feelings of other people and hardly let myself do it for myself, you know. And so luckily allowing my team to come in and help me better understand the perspectives of why choices were being made when I couldn’t understand, kept me from some of that. Also, I don’t know, but I wonder if having a sibling who I was close to and living with, who was processing everybody else’s emotions along with hers. If that gave me the grace to not have to. And I think that frequently with healers, I find that many of them are sensitive and empathic because they are able to clear other people’s energy by kind of processing it through themselves also. When they don’t know how to move it without processing it when they’re early on. And I think my sister’s probably a healer who doesn’t do anything with it because it she’s so kind of overwhelmed by her stuff. I’m more of a teacher. And while I think everyone’s a teacher and a student, I think that you’re not always a healer if you’re a teacher, and you’re not always teaching if you’re a healer, but you can.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Yeah. And that’s where energy healing you know, I have I heard Ricky three times.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh, and you’re like, that’s what I’m doing.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. I I’m gonna look go down that rabbit hole. Yeah. It’s been a series of rabbit holes in the last, probably, six years. And the exponential growth I’ve had because of it of being open to hearing things repeatedly or going down these rabbit holes. And I always think of it as like this download or intuitive thought or curiosity that, like, drops in and then I follow it. And that’s just how it has appeared to me, but it’s never been, like, this direct it hasn’t felt like a direct communication. I think that’s what’s lacking for me. And that’s where my frustration is.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I mean, that’s pretty direct to hear Ricky three times. How does he do it?
Victoria Volk: That is that I guess I want more of it. You know, I want to be able to utilize that openness for myself as much as I’ve utilized it for other people. And I think that’s kind of I think I’m at the point where it’s like, okay, I want this from my own self. I want You know what I mean?
Helen Gretchen Jones: Because I didn’t
Victoria Volk: grew up as being an emotional caretaker for everybody else, and I’ve always often been that. And so now it’s like, alright, let’s go. I want I want I
Helen Gretchen Jones: that’s so funny.
Victoria Volk: I mean,
Helen Gretchen Jones: Do you have siblings?
Victoria Volk: I do. I’m the youngest.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Do you feel like I’m just curious now. And do you feel like you were more sensitive than the rest of them? Yes. Do you feel like you possibly processed some of the family’s emotions through some of those challenges and trying times, whereas they didn’t have to because you were doing it for them.
Victoria Volk: I never thought of it that way, but
Helen Gretchen Jones: some didn’t think about it. I don’t know. I feel like my sister may have done that for me and unknowingly, and I hadn’t thought about it till today. Actually, but I feel like that’s maybe something that happened.
Victoria Volk: Why else can we go with this? Because I I could talk all day. Are you how are you on time?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I’m good. I’m good. We’re just I don’t know. We’re just kinda going back and forth.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. I feel like we’re talking about a lot of different things. I have a series of questions that I have on my form, and I do wanna get to I wanna I wanna ask these because I feel like I want my listeners to get what they need to receive to from this. And from your experience of your own growth in grief, in working with others, in theirs. What would you what would be the piece of advice? And you you’ve shared a lot, but what is one thing that you were feeling guided to share in terms of I just received this diagnosis or my loved one just received this diagnosis or the flip side of that, there was no warning at all. What is the approach that you would suggest for both of those scenarios? I don’t even know what the question is. Really, what do you wanna say about that? Because it’s like, how do you connect in those circumstances? I don’t even know what the question is. So however you interpret me at I don’t know. I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore.
Helen Gretchen Jones: So here’s how I would interpret that. If someone is given a diagnosis and they’re like you’re it has spread everywhere you’ve literally got weeks, that’s a very scary thing. And if there’s someone out there who has a family member or the they’re themselves have they’ve just been given that diagnosis or that prognosis, then I would suggest with everything that you are to open up that bag and just say I’m going to just for one week allow myself to do this and I’m going to I’m going to say the things that I need never said, that needed to be said. And I’m even if it’s hurtful, I’m gonna say it in the kindest way possible. And I’m going to clear the air. And a lot of people find that it’s really hard to do that because they don’t want to say it to someone who is dying. They’re about to die anyway. You know what I mean? That’s what they say. They’re about to die anyway.
Why would I hurt them? They don’t have much time left? It isn’t about hurting. It’s about processing those emotions beforehand. And in my experience, whenever someone has been giving it any kind of diagnosis, whether they have months or weeks or less than that, when they allow themselves to say what they really need to say or they allow themselves to hear what hasn’t been said yet. It’s like a wait is lifted. It hurts in the moment because there’s some regrets usually around that, but quite honestly, There’s regrets around it because it’s been hurting for a long time. And it’s being pushed down and pushed down and people think that they ignore it, it’ll just eventually, you know, smooth itself out. It doesn’t. It lingers. But once they say it, it’s like They can exhale, they can breathe again, and it’s sort of like giving permission to the person who’s dying to go, that when they do die, it’s okay. I used to think that when I was there helping these families who are really navigating hurt and pain and resentment through their grief and loss, then I needed to be the strong one. And so I I thought I needed to not cry. And I needed to hold it all in and push it down and be the strong one like I’m some kind of amazing emotional person that could just process this and then everybody just, you know, I can just direct how everyone else needs to behave. But I found that one time I couldn’t do it and I broke down and I cried. I I couldn’t. I loved this person they were with me for a long time. And I broke down and I cried. And when I did, it’s like it was permission for everybody else. The family broke down and cried. And we think that we have to hold it all together. I mean, just imagine that holding it all together is so so much resistance. There’s tightness. There’s there’s no flow in it. But when you let it go and you let go of whatever you think people are gonna think about you for crying, for being vulnerable, for being open, it never works that way. People actually open up and become vulnerable themselves. And these people cry, they release whatever that pent up stuff is, that energy, and it makes it easier for them to say the things kindly that they always wanted to say. And so if you allow yourself to be authentically vulnerable, in those moments. That’s where you can flow through the grief, the hurt, and the pain in the resentment, no matter how much time this person has left. And I encourage everyone to allow themselves even if it’s just one day. Today is my vulnerable day. That’s what I would suggest.
Victoria Volk: And what about for those who didn’t have that opportunity?
Helen Gretchen Jones: Like my sister, one of my sisters. So for people who didn’t have that opportunity, if they’re okay. So this has happened or with with many of my clients actually, people who refuse to come in with the rest of the family, this this has happened before. And first, I would take into account what their religious and faith based belief systems are. So unless they’re atheist, including agnostics, they’ve leaving something, they just don’t know what it is. So unless they’re atheist, every faith based belief system believes that there is something more after death. Some know what it is, some don’t. K? That’s their belief. So I would navigate the grief through their belief systems. So if someone believes that there is an afterlife, then we start there. We start with this is not the final goodbye. We know that there’s something more. Years what you missed bedside, oftentimes there’s some spiritual experiences with beings of light, angelics, whatever it is. I would teach that oftentimes our loved ones will come in dreams and to be open and available to that. Depending on the person that I’m working with, I would also suggest a medium. And I know this is a nontraditional approach, but there are some pretty fantastic certified triple blind tested through university studies and there’s lists of these people. It’s a short list, you know, but, I mean, maybe a hundred, but they’re out there. These people are so phenomenal. And you get on their waitlist. There’s usually waitlist that could be six months, it could be a year, but here’s what I know. You’re gonna have to go through that six months or that year anyway. And all of a sudden, this opening shows up at the right time when you need it the most and sometimes there’s cancellations to move up the list, whatever. But you put yourself on that list and all of my experiences. And I know this sounds to say all, but I mean all of the people that I’ve worked with who have also worked with a medium. Say that the medium was able to bring them more closure, more more joy, more hope, and more connection than months with a therapist. So and I’m not there’s a place for therapy of absolutely especially processing your emotions through the physical body, it’s very, very important. But having that connection with your loved one and spirit authenticated and validated and being able to feel like they’re right here with you once again because they are and there are people out there who can perceive those energies. It’s very very healing, and it really moves you through that grief process, a little more lighthearted and a little bit more expansive than you were going into it.
Victoria Volk: What about those? Because you you kind of interpreted it as like someone who didn’t come into the room? But what if they’re in an event of an accident where nobody had where there wasn’t a chance, there wasn’t a diagnosis. It was very sudden,
Helen Gretchen Jones: like an accident. In that case, I would recommend the same thing. I would say, there’s so much healing. I know you probably know this, but if there’s anyone who hasn’t ever seen a medium, a really good medium, and I know that there are scammers out there, but there are scammers in every field. There are really bad doctors. There are really bad lawyers. There are really bad salesman and businessman. And there there’s going to be people who take advantage of people in all every field of work in industry. However, there are some really good ones out there who are on amazing websites that can really get you involved. There’s a Actually, this is kind of important to share. It’s a healing thing. There is a website, an organization called helping parents heal. Have you ever heard of them?
Victoria Volk: I have not.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Okay. Helping parents heal. It’s for people who have lost children. And it doesn’t matter the age of your child. But they have incredible gatherings. They have they’ve even done little branch off groups for fathers who have lost mothers who have lost siblings who have lost these people who are processing the grief of losing a child. And they bring in these big events that are just for helping parents heal families and they bring in mediums, the certified authenticated mediums who do group readings for these people and all of them say, my child was there. They knew things about my child that, you know, and then they tell you what the child’s doing now. And, you know, you get these experiences are often validated by the children in spirit. If you’re open to those signs, you know.
So it’s some of the most beautiful experiences, but they have a website with a list of mediums. So if anyone’s out there interested, I know I’m pushing the medium route, but I can tell you I know how non traditional it is, but how healing and processing that grief it can be. Even for people in accidents.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. I’ve heard that myself from people who’ve experienced mediums too. Yes. So you have this gift. Certainly, it helped you process your grief.
But what were some of the other ways and things that you discovered that helped you and worked for you, spirit guides aside? And maybe they probably actually came in and said, hey, you need to do this or you need to do that or this might help you or
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yes. And I do have some things that I do that are self care that help me move through grief because when you’re working as a death doula, you grieve the loss of the people that you formed connections with. I had one patient. I had he was on hospice for five years and I worked with him for four of them. I loved him deeply.
So you do. You do process a lot of grief as a death doula. And it’s kind of hard for the course, really. One thing that really helps me process that grief, and I don’t know what it is, but submerging myself in water, so like a bath. It’s like the field or the energy field around me. It’s like when everything gets submerged, it’s like it stops crackling or it stops. It’s like it all those little molecules or something. I don’t even know because I don’t know science. So I majored in art and religion. So it just all it’s like it somehow thizzles everything out. So for me, it’s submerging in water and that really, and it resets me, it grounds me, and it sort of helps me to take a breath, reevaluate where I am in this very present moment and recognize that everything is okay in this moment. It doesn’t take away my grief. But it certainly helps me to feel more in my body, grounded, and just present. And that helps. Another thing that I find is really really helpful is when I feel it in my body almost like anxiety like they’re too much moving through me is to move my body.
So I go on a brisk walk because if I run, I will I’m, you know, I’m not that fit. So I don’t need to be running, but I do a brisk walk or something and it feels like it shakes it out of me. And that’s really helpful too. So I encourage anyone to physically move. I don’t do this, but I’ve had several people say that this has been very helpful for them. And it’s something called, I’m a get I hope I’m getting it right, a screen pillow. It’s a pillow that they scream into. It’s like they put it over their face, like they’re smothering themselves, and they just scream, and they let it all out, and they have to do it a few times, and that’s sort of like purging that energy that’s been pent up through that kind of throat and solar plexus area of the body where it can feel like you’ve got knots through this grief. You know, how do we get it out you know, and so sometimes screaming is like a level of communication because you’re using your voice, but it’s a way of moving that energy out. I haven’t tried it, but I’ve heard good things about the screen pillow.
Victoria Volk: Well, I think, you know, in terms of anger, it’s very effective, probably, and safe, and non harming. Right. I recommend, you know, why not? You have nothing to lose. It’s worth a try. Actually, I found myself just doing that not that long ago. So, you know, when you’re
Helen Gretchen Jones: with the
Victoria Volk: yeah. When you’re angry, I mean, yeah. You know, even if it’s a cuss word, you know, which may or may not have been my the case for myself.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Like, password or two.
Victoria Volk: Just see what you gotta do. Right? No. That’s a great actually, that has never been suggested in the podcast. So
Helen Gretchen Jones: I will say one more thing. For me, one thing that really really like resets me and this sounds I’m sure cliche or cheesy, but it’s when I go outside and there’s a breeze. Feeling the breeze I close my eyes. I don’t know what it is about a breeze, but it’s like it’s carrying away things.
Victoria Volk: If you can set that intention. Right? Yeah. Set that intention. Yeah.
Helen Gretchen Jones: When the breeze really resets me, I’d love a good breeze.
Victoria Volk: Come to North Dakota, we got plenty of that.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I love
Victoria Volk: it. Flat, and there’s nothing but wind.
Helen Gretchen Jones: That’s good.
Victoria Volk: So you have written a book which we have not talked about yet, healing whispers from spirit guides. And you didn’t even mention it in your bio, which have found interesting. Oh, oh,
Helen Gretchen Jones: you know, that’s how interesting.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So when did this book come about? And What was the intuitive hit or inspired hit or the guidance that you received around that?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So it was June three years ago, and I woke up and then it was kissinger actually who we talked about already. Normally, when I hear my team in spirit, I hear them inside my head so very subjectively. This time, Kay came across very objectively. I felt like it was right in front of my face. And he said, you’re going to write a book. And I have never had an interest in writing a book. I can’t imagine I am a mom. You know, my I helped my husband with the family business like I seemed so incredibly normal that I didn’t feel like I had anything interesting or valuable to say. And I was like, well, what would I even write about? And they said, write what you know? And it would take you about two and a half years to complete. I took they said two years to complete, it took two and a half. Ballpark. So I started to think about what is it that I know. I know a little but a lot of things, but I didn’t feel like I was an expert in any specific area. And then it did occur to me that I had all these journals. I had all these journals that I’ve been journaling every single time I went to go visit a patient. I talked about what they were going through, what their families were going through, and then I would journal there, when I would be there, when they were dying, and the shared death experiences that I had. So I get to go part way in the spirit world with them. And I journaled these synchronicities and these teachings where my team and spirit would come in and say this is what he’s experiencing, this is what the doctors are saying, and this is what’s actually happening. And so I have these really great journals, and I just referred to those, picked out a few of my favorite patient stories, put him in the book, and then I preceded each patient’s story with a what I learned through the grieving process, through the healing process, what I’ve learned working with Spirit. One one of the chapters is called signs and synchronicities. Right? So what to look force that you understand when knowing that you don’t have to be bedside when someone dies, you can be in a whole another part of the world. Time and space does not matter in these moments. So all these teachings followed by a patient chapter and I end every single chapter with a a channel message from my team and spirit. Usually, it’s kind of beautiful message that they that were already in these journals, actually, that I’ve been put together with these chapters. So so, yeah, it’s it’s It’s just, I think, a book that talks about healing and grieving and the dying process and and how beautiful it can be.
Victoria Volk: And I’ll put the link to that and the show notes, of course. Yeah. What is one of the stories that has touched you the most and has really just stuck with you.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I’m trying to how do I pick one? I guess I’m gonna talk about mister Rob Robinson. Of course, I’ve changed their names for their privacy with the HIPAA acts and stuff. But mister Robinson was an older man. He was put in a nursing home. He had failure to thrive. He was very, very skinny, and he was on oxygen. And did not wanna talk to me. I was like, he was he was very grouchy. But I insisted I showed up every time when I would sit with him.
Victoria Volk: as a volunteer.
Helen Gretchen Jones: I was a volunteer. Yes. His family actually asked for a volunteer through hospice, and he didn’t want one. And so I was volunteering through hospice at this time. And he all he wanted to talk about was his very minimal but still important contribution scientifically in engineering wise to a specific car part. Okay? So, I mean, he was very much caught in because he was so worried about what am I leaving behind. What has my life amounted to. This is where he he didn’t family. He has a couple of kids, but they were living their life with their kids. They weren’t coming to visit very much. And he felt alone and he was trying to figure out what was the point of all this. And so we started just him and I. We were we would work talking about how great it was that he had his discovery But what do you think is most important now? We kind of really worked around that. And eventually and it took a couple of months actually. He said, you know, one thing that I really missed out on is I didn’t travel until I was after age sixty five. And I was told that you do and as we all were told, right, probably growing up, that that’s what you do. You work really hard. You get a good job.
And then at sixty five, you retire, and you travel, and you do all the things that you really wanna do, and you golf, or whatever it is. And that’s what he said he did. And he said, but shortly after sixty five, I my health vaded. And I couldn’t go do all the things. I always knew I was going to do because I wasn’t capable of, you know, walking that. I couldn’t hike anything anymore or my knees or, you know, whatever it was. He had all these ailments. And he’s like, I really feel like I missed out on the good parts of life. And then he said, he would tell me about how his children were sort of problems, how they had all these problems. He doesn’t know how they’re gonna get out of their problems. There was all these different problems. Children were having that in his perception. And then I would say, why are those problems? And I would say, tell me, what’s so wrong with that choice? What’s so and we would negotiate sort of through those stories? And then when I would say something mister Robinson wouldn’t like he would pretend to fall asleep. He would all of a sudden I mean, he would just check out, and that was it. That that’s how he ended our our conversations all the time. That was, like, nope, done, honestly. Well, one time I came in and his daughter was there. And we Mr. Robinson and I’ve been really working through how it was important to share how you’re feeling with your family when they’re here and he’s like not gonna happen, not not gonna do it. But I guess something got through because I walked in and his daughter was crying and he was asleep. I don’t believe he was really asleep. Think that’s how he ended the conversation with his daughter. He’d take to sleep. He basically she had recorded the whole thing. He said she said I had never had a conversation with my dad like this before. It was the most healing experience, and she’s like, I can’t She goes, everything’s okay now. Basically, he told her that he loved her so much, that she’s doing such a good job as a parent, and he recognizes now that he lived his life based on how society wanted him to be a dad, how society wanted him to provide, how society wanted him to he he realized that he didn’t he made choices based on what he believed society wanted him to to live like, and he didn’t want that for her. And that she was more free spirited. And, you know, I guess, she’d had children with multiple dads and she never went to college. These are things that really bothered him. And he’s like, now I see you’re a free spirit and you’re finding love where love is. And you’re a good mom. And so he said, all these amazing things that she really needed to hear. And he said, you know, he was atheist because he’s a scientist. He said, you know, but I do believe there must be a God because he brought me you and I can’t believe that he would bring me one of the most joyful people in my life and then take take her away from me and say I could never see her again. So I know I’m gonna see you again and so all of these beautiful things. So working with someone right where they are. Not telling them they’re wrong, not just giving them suggestions and letting them process that information on their own was enough to give her closure, to give him closure, and for them to both leave feeling that there was hope that they were connected, that there was love, and that there was so much more than what their physical eyes could perceive.
Victoria Volk: And if that full body kills, it reminds me of my own story of going to see my uncle. I hadn’t seen him. He was the only living well, he was very close to my dad. And when my dad died, he, you know, he said that he was gonna take care of us and watch over us. Well, apparently, he didn’t. And that was a really strong resentment towards him from my mother and and, you know, we were told these stories growing up. And so my dad’s family pretty much were not in my life after he passed, and my uncle wasn’t either. And my mother I was in the writing phase of my book and her the editing phase, and my mother had called me and said that he had terminal brain cancer. And I decided that same day that I’m gonna go see him. It had been almost pretty close to thirty years to the day. And I went to go see him and we had about six months of reconnection and it transformed, I think, both of us for both of us, it was transforming because he hadn’t seen me since my dad’s funeral. I hadn’t seen him. And I just felt like I had to do it for him. Like I had to go for him. Unbeknownst to me, it was actually very healing for me too. Yeah. You know. So it reminds me of that, you know, of of how really truly healing it can be to just set aside whatever stories Yes. We’re told and whatever stories that we’ve been led to believe. That you can
Helen Gretchen Jones: or that we’ve created,
Victoria Volk: yeah, or that we’ve created, and that you can choose a different story at any moment.
Helen Gretchen Jones: And if you can just be brave enough to just take that step and do it, and vulnerable, brave and vulnerable. And it’s the hardest part is leading up to it. Once you’re there and you actually do it, things unfold so beautifully usually.
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I knocked on the door. I didn’t know he’d bring cancer. Was he gonna remember me? Did he wanna see me? I had no idea.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Wow,
Victoria Volk: but I didn’t care. It was like this mission that was given to me, you know. It was like I had to be there. And within ten minutes, my two cousins knocked on the door and came in. Who I hadn’t seen either in just as much time.
One from Connecticut, like states across the country, you know. So it was really crazy how that all came to be and turned out, but Yeah. That reminded me of that.
Helen Gretchen Jones: How did your mom take that? Can I ask?
Victoria Volk: Not very well, actually. My siblings didn’t either. And then my sister actually ended up going to see him herself Or, yeah, she went to see him herself and she did not have the same experience. And, you know, I was just like, well, you know, my intention was maybe different than yours You know? I don’t know.
Helen Gretchen Jones: But then if you were open to change and connection.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Even my book that wasn’t received very well either by my mother, but Fortunately for me, like doing the grief work for myself, like going through grief recovery and doing a lot of personal work, I’ve changed that story. You know, I’ve been able to rewrite that story. And I feel like my mom’s eighty two, she could go at any time. Right? I feel like because of the work that I’ve done, I feel like in just the personal knowing that I have about what the importance of end of life. Right? Like, having conversations on this podcast in particular too have have been healing for me just to understand that whatever I need to say I can there is a way to work through it without having that conversation, but there is also a lot of healing that can happen when you have that conversation with the other that can happen for them.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yes. Right?
Victoria Volk: And it’s saying we’re all connected. Yeah. It’s discerning what’s mine and what’s theirs and what is meant to be shared Yes. That can be healing for both. Yeah. So how do you discern that? Like, do you share everything that comes through? Or is it Yeah. Probably not.
Helen Gretchen Jones: No. I want to. I’m excited about messages that come through, and I am always eager to have them validated. And I can be a little impatient. But as people can be, I suppose. But I don’t share everything that comes through at all. I do try to write everything down. And the reason I don’t share is because I think sometimes the information is more for me to guide, yeah, because you can tell someone something all you want, you can teach them and and preach to them all you want about a specific thing. But instead, if I were to take that information and suggest come around the edges a little bit, and then they have their own aha moment and they come to that on their own. Oh, that’s what’s healing. That’s what sticks. So you can, you know, say whatever you want to someone, but all you have to do. So I think when the information comes in, I’ll sort of come about it in a roundabout way so that they come up with the idea or they process that information without me having to say aha. But once they do, then it’s validating for me. And I don’t have to say, oh, it was validated for me because it isn’t about me. Mhmm. But it does tell me that I’m on the right path when that information is validated and that I’m doing something for them or I’m helping them come to terms on their own. Because I know I as a healer, I’m sure you know, you can’t heal someone, but you can start the process of having of having them heal themselves. You can be that catalyst for them, but you you can’t heal someone who doesn’t wanna be healed.
Victoria Volk: That’s me. Absolutely. I learned that the hard way. You know, I’m curious if you were as a kid, were you like a questioner? Like, why why why?
Or were you a questioner type of kid?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So what was interesting is I would say, yes, I was very curious and I wanted to understand things. I’m also a first born, so I think that feeling in control, if psychology has anything to do with it, being in control and understanding what’s happening around you is important for the first born because they feel like they need to, you know, take care of the younger ones. So I guess that was a questioner, but for the most part, if someone would tell me something and this is true to this day and they talk with their hands, so that has to be both, I don’t know. And they’re talking with their hands and they’re it comes right here in front of their chest. Okay? If they’re saying something that is heartfelt and true, it’ll be like this kind of shimmer of light behind it, but only if it’s in front of their chest. If they’re saying something that is not quite true or they are exaggerating or they’re trying to convince the people who they’re talking to that it’s truth, when it’s not full truth, that kind of thing, or a flat out lie, I guess, could also be the case. But most people try to, you know, embellish the truth. You know, whenever that happens, there’s like this little shadow that comes up. And I only see it in front of the chest, and I only see it come from the hands. So sometimes when people would say something even in childhood and I would see that, I wouldn’t have to question. But in my mind, I’d be questioning why they felt the need to say that if it wasn’t true. So I wouldn’t ask them, why are you lying? Because I was watching to see how it would play out between the adults. But it was an interesting dynamic and under any truth and exciting it’s coming from my heart truth.
Victoria Volk: That’s fascinating. What do you feel like you need to share or want to share that you maybe haven’t gotten to yet?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I think, Beth Dula, I’m going to maybe if I could talk a little bit about that. It’s a relatively new position, and I think it has come up about with our changing healthcare system. Nurses have so much more responsibility in paperwork now that they have to adhere to, and they just can’t spend time with patients like they used to. And so there is a need for people in hospitals to have people sitting with them, those who are terminal. And that’s where a death doula kind of fits in. And when I’ve talked to people in the past, there are death doula who typically are very spiritual in some way. But I think that it’s important to note that The most important thing I believe about being a death doula is to meet people where they are. I have helped people of all religion, of all different faiths, of all different cultures, And I’ve even had them have their faith contradicted near death. And when someone’s dying, they take comfort in their faith, and it’s not the time to really play up those contradictions. No, it’s time to figure out how those contradictions, how can you make them okay? Because it’s all about finding someone peace. It’s all about peace being a death doula. At least that’s my belief. So if you’re a death doula or you’re interested in working with people who are dying there are organizations such as hospices. Also, there’s an organization called Noda, which I volunteer for. It stands for no one dies alone. It’s a hospital based program throughout the country. And it’s for people who have no family. Maybe they never had kids, maybe family lives out of the country, or out of the state, and can’t afford to come in. Maybe they were total jerks and burned all their bridges, and nobody wants to be there. It doesn’t matter. There are people everyday dying alone in hospitals. And they don’t have anyone to sit with them. So a note of volunteer, it’s a weekend training, that’s all it is, and a flu shot. And you and they send out this email blast to all their volunteers, and you sign up for three hour shifts. And these are people who have already entered the actively dying phase, which means the last seventy two hours or less. Most of the time, they’re already unconscious. You go in to sit with them. You are going in and you are doing what you believe is best for them in that moment unless they have a bio sheet and sometimes they do which tells you their faith. So if you’re working with someone who’s a devout Baptist, which happened to me, then I put on I played some hymns from my phone, you know, that I thought she would enjoy. And I put my hands on her and I did a little bit of energy work and things like that. I’m healing from my heart. I’m forming that connection. So there’s a need for people to be with those who are dying, especially since nurses aren’t able to do it like they used to be able to. So I would encourage anyone who feels like this might be something to absolutely pursue it. It’s very rewarding.
Victoria Volk: You know, that brings up something for me because I have, you know, nursing homes in my area and we have a hospital, but I’m very rural. There’s a high likelihood that my nearest hospital is not a participant of this and I mean, I’m I believe I’m probably the only train death to Dula in my entire county probably for ninety miles around me. Yeah. I’m gonna I’m gonna consider that.
Helen Gretchen Jones: It’s a quick phone call or email to let people know that you’re here and to help them understand how you’re valuable and you are. You know? And I think that anyone who’s working in those areas under stands that there are families who are already grieving before their loved one has transitioned, who are processing so much, am I doing the right thing? Am I putting my loved one in the nursing home? Am I, you know, are they getting their needs met?
There’s all these questions people have if they’re doing the right thing? Around their loved one. And if you’re there to consult with them and to help them understand, in most cases, nursing homes are understaffed and underpaid. And so it’s been my experience so far. That you do have to be still very, very present as a caregiver even when you have them in a nursing home. And it isn’t about doing right or wrong because it really doesn’t matter in that way. But understanding that just because you have them in a nursing home doesn’t mean you’re completely you can let go. You still need to check-in on them and make sure they’re being monitored in the best way possible and being an advocate for them.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. My dad had passed away in a nursing home. Yeah. I wasn’t there. Imagine, you know, it’s like most people, like your passions, become come from a place of your wounding. Right? Just like you’re what you’re doing now, the experience of losing your father, like, was this catapult and what you’re doing today? And so what do you what gives you hope for the future?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I don’t know. I think I’m eternally hopeful all the time.
Victoria Volk: That’s good. No. It’s actually a very different answer than I’ve ever received. So thank you.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh, I I just I guess I choose the story where I see so much love and hope on this on this entire planet, and I am so aware that I get to create and co create my experiences. With my team and that’s what I want. And so that’s what I make choices around. So like when we hang up here, I will be doing a meditation sometime before nine o’clock tonight and I will be attempting to connect to my team because when it does have a feel connected, I feel inflow with the world around me and that is hopeful and that is loving and that is connected. But I have to do the work. If I go days without meditating and it does happen, I start to really get into my human. I start to really focus on all these physical little challenges that can I can blow up to be bigger than what they really are? But when I do the work and I say, today’s, you know, I’m gonna I’m gonna take five minutes, ten minutes, twenty minutes, and do my meditation. That’s how it started. I mean, now my meditations are often over an hour, but because I want them to be.
I feel so good. But initially, it’s five minutes. I’m like, wow. Five minutes was nothing. And I just feel so much more connected to this world and to myself.
So, yeah, that’s I’m hopeful because I choose to be.
Victoria Volk: Like you said, we have to do the work.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yeah. And it’s really not that hard of work to connect.
Victoria Volk: Was there anything else we would like to share?
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yeah. I feel like we covered a lot of information. I just I just want people to know that they’re not alone in their grief and that every single person goes through it and finding a way that is most helpful for you is beneficial not just to you but to the family and the people that you surround yourself with because they can feel your grief as well. And I encourage, like I mentioned earlier, if people are open to it, to consider even if it’s out of curiosity, a medium. Because so much screen, they could go through one thirty minute, forty five minute or hour session with the medium and come out of it feeling I mean, you process it for days, but you feel like you’re on CloudNine. And it’s it’s sort of like this beautiful high of being connected again to your loved one. And so I encourage if your grief is around the loss of a loved one and not the loss of, you know, a job or a, you know, a home or anything else like that if it really is a medium can help in that way.
Victoria Volk: And I would piggyback that to challenge your stories and beliefs that you have because they could be the very thing that’s handicap handicapping your healing.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Absolutely. And it is one of the hardest things that we can ever do, which is self reflect. And people who don’t self reflect always think they’re self reflecting. But one way to know if you’re genuinely self reflecting is if you come up with a defense. For your actions in some way. You know what? I behave this way because of this. If there’s a defense to your thoughts, then you’re not fully self reflecting. You’re still trying to make right your choice. And so I would suggest that. So if you’re truly being self reflective and trying to bring in that self awareness, you’re not trying to defend in any way your actions or your choices.
Victoria Volk: That’s juicy. I love that. That’s good. What was the website that you would recommend that people go to to find a qualified vetted medium?
Helen Gretchen Jones: Yes. Okay. So I know helping parents heal has one. Has a a list. And there are other lists out there. And I’m trying to remember the universities that do it. I feel like it might have been a university. I I see I don’t wanna give the wrong ones, but I feel like if I had to and I could be wrong, I think that there was one in Arizona, one in North Texas, and one in Virginia that have qualified, had done research studies on these vetted mediums, and have put out a list of these people. So I could be wrong on those. I feel like maybe though that those are correct, but you can even Google certified mediums, things like that, and there’s some really good ones out there. A lot, actually.
Victoria Volk: Okay. I will do some research or if you want us if you find know of a link that you have, send it to me and I’ll add it to the show notes. And then also where can people find you if they wanna connect with you, read your book, where can they find that, all of that good stuff?
Helen Gretchen Jones: So my website is helen gretchen jones dot com. And on there, you can find information about the book and the services that I offer. My book is sold on barnes and nobles dot com and, of course, on Amazon. And it’s both in it’s in three ways. It’s in paperback, Kendall, and an audiobook.
Red by yours truly.
Victoria Volk: Awesome. And where on social media are you? People listening.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Oh, I’m so bad with social media. Like, it is not my favorite thing. I am on Facebook under Helen Gretchen Jones, and I am also on Instagram under Helen Gretchen Jones. I did get banned from TikTok because I said death too many times and I you’re supposed to say unalive. But that’s really difficult.
I know. I know. I On a live
Victoria Volk: What is this world coming to? This is why we are so uncomfortable with death and dying. Right.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Exactly. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: Oh, you can’t say death now or dead or dying? Like,
Helen Gretchen Jones: And you can’t and I don’t it just seems so silly to me because death comes for the old as well as the young, the sick, and the healthy. I mean, it’s it comes for every single being and yet the longer that, you know, and whenever I think it started probably if I had to really do some research. I think it’s probably around the civil wartime when we started having to involve our soldiers in order to get them home. You know? And once that started happening, there became this new culture for us where we when someone dies, we have someone else collect the body, someone else cleanses the bot cleanses the body, someone else puts the body, you know, goes through the embalming process, someone else lowers the body into the ground like it’s so distant. You know? So we’ve we’ve created this for ourselves. And so now death is something to be feared. It’s the unknown. It’s distant from what we have to deal with. And we fear the unknown when that happens. And so we’ve created this culture of death as a taboo topic. And Certainly, I think with the book and with interviews, like the one I’m having with you now, one of the goals is to normalize talking about death and to also normalize talking about the spiritual experiences around death.
Victoria Volk: And how healing it can be when we open ourselves to a different possibility.
Helen Gretchen Jones: Don’t shut yourself off. That’s right. Allow yourself to be curious always and be open. You know, it’s the best.
Victoria Volk: Just got full body chills. That was the main message here today, folks. Thank you so much for being here, Helen, for sharing all that you shared. It’s I just I felt like this the whole time. I’m like, let’s like in a trans listening too. You have a beautiful voice too by the way. Do you have a podcast?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I don’t.
Victoria Volk: Oh, really?
Helen Gretchen Jones: I’m not in the flow of that yet. We’ll just have to see how it unfolds.
Victoria Volk: Oh, maybe maybe in the future. Six months to a year, ballpark. Because as many times you said ballpark, and then I was thinking about the dot the world series game, I’m gonna ballpark in my head for probably
Helen Gretchen Jones: That’s so funny. That’s true.
Victoria Volk: There’s a rabbit hole I’m supposed to go down apparently. So thank you so much for being here and and remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life much loved.
Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parent Loss, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today, I’m sharing my conversation with my former Do Grief Differently client, Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer, a dedicated research associate at UT Austin’s Texas Center For Disability Studies.
Delyla shares her transformative journey into special education and advocacy after initially struggling to find direction in life. The conversation is especially poignant as it marks the second anniversary of her father, Fred Boyer’s passing—a pivotal moment that led Delyla to seek help with me through my one-on-one, 12-week program, Do Grief Differently. This dialogue illuminates how grief was once an unspoken topic in her family but has since become a source of personal growth and healing for Delyla.
Key Takeaways:
Embracing Change: After living with her mother in Houston, Delyla transitioned to a new career and community in Austin, strengthening familial relationships.
Understanding Self: A significant revelation came when she discovered she was on the autism spectrum—a realization supported by her sister—after years of being misdiagnosed with bipolar disorder.
Building Resilience: Through vulnerability and resilience, Delyla faced grief head-on with therapeutic tools like Do Grief Differently, tapping, and supportive friendships at work.
Honoring Legacy: She finds unique ways to commemorate her father’s memory, such as bike rides where she spreads his ashes, highlighting how accepting emotions can lead to clarity.
Delyla’s story is one of courage and transformation. In sharing her experience working with me, she highlights the positive impact of structured support systems in navigating loss while fostering personal growth. By embracing adaptability and compassion identified through tools like YouMap and learning from cherished memories with her father, Delyla continues to advocate for others facing similar challenges. Her message encourages engaging with community resources for healing while maintaining hope for future endeavors within special education advocacy.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Grief as a Catalyst for Personal Growth
Grieving is an inevitable part of life, yet it often remains shrouded in silence and misunderstanding. In the latest episode of “Grieving Voices,” host Victoria delves into this complex topic with Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer, a social science and humanities research associate at the Texas Center For Disability Studies at UT Austin. Delilah’s journey through grief offers profound insights into how embracing emotional pain can lead to personal transformation.
A Journey Into Special Education
Delyla’s path was not straightforward; she initially struggled to find direction in her life and education. However, once she discovered her passion for special education, everything changed. Her dedication led her to prestigious fellowships and advocacy roles, including participating in the Council for Exceptional Children’s Inaugural Diversity Leadership Academy.
The Impact of Loss on Life Choices
The podcast recording date holds particular significance—October 21st marks two years since the passing of Delyla’s father, Fred Boyer. His death became a pivotal moment that propelled Delyla towards seeking help with grief management through Victoria’s program “Do Grief Differently.” She reflects on how growing up in an environment where grief wasn’t openly discussed shaped her initial struggles but also highlights how therapeutic tools like tapping have aided her healing process.
Navigating Relationships Through Grief
Moving from Houston to Austin marked another significant transition for Delyla—both professionally and personally. This move allowed her relationship with her mother to flourish despite physical distance while working on mending ties with her sister using skills acquired from the grieving program.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer. She is a social science and humanities research associate three with the Texas Center for Disability Studies. At UT Austin. After nine years of not taking life or college seriously, Delilah graduated with her bachelor’s degree and went into special education. This was a path that was challenging and rewarding. And it also opened doors to education policy fellowships and a love for advocacy. She continues to advocate and look for opportunities to serve, and she is also a part of the council for exceptional children’s inaugural diversity leadership academy. And she was also a participant in my program to grief differently in April of twenty twenty three, which is like a year and a half ago already. And that where does the time go right?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: I know.
Victoria Volk: And so thank you so much for coming I know we talked about you being a guest on my podcast a few times even back in twenty twenty three. And so I’m finally glad to have you as a guest. And today is also a very special day, and maybe we can start there.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. Thank you so much, Victoria. Yes. Today is a special day, October twenty first. This marks my dad’s second year of his death anniversary. His name was Fred Bowyer, and he was a an educator at heart and a leader as well in the public education setting.
Victoria Volk: And it’s also the loss that brought you to do grief differently as well. And it was obviously, it’s only two years today, and so it was quite raw for you at the time when you first came to work with me.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. I found you actually just doing a search because I knew that I needed some help with grief and that’s where my journey started. With I never knew what grief was until I met you, Victoria. And when I went through with my dad just seeing him in the hospital and being there for him. So I thank you for helping me on this journey.
Victoria Volk: It was my pleasure. And I want to rewind the clock a little bit though into your childhood and just share with people what you were taught about grief and learned about grief before and growing up. And then how that changed for you in what you learned through through do group differently?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: As a child, I remember my first time, I was in fifth grade, and I heard that my grand my grandmother passed and my parents ended up going to the valley and told me to stay at school. And I did. So I I really wasn’t sure what was going on. I just knew somebody did pass and that I was supposed to continue to do my school work, be there, get good grades. So as a child, I don’t think I was really talked to grief really did was talked about it. And it was kinda I feel like it was maybe swept under the rug. And even when my grandmother did stay with us, it was like the doors were closed when she was when she had leukemia. But it it was something that was there. That I just didn’t know how to I didn’t know how to cope.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. We’re not taught the language either of how to express that sadness that we’re feeling or the uncertainty and and the unknowns. Yeah. And and because grief affects all areas of our life even as children. Right? Like, even as children, like, it can affect your friendships and excuse me. You know, you’re not showing up as your true self when you’re feeling burdened. You know? Yes. So how how did that change for you then in in what you have learned about grief through the through the process of do grief differently? And and how you kind of process those feelings even today, like, on this anniversary?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: It’s taken a lot of therapy, and I’m grateful for therapy I mean, even finding you, Victoria. But how I process it more is, like, for instance, today, I took the day off work, and I decided to just do things for myself. Go for vicryde. I’m gonna go for vicryde, and I’m gonna spread some of these ashes. And I guess, how I process it throughout, you know, the job? Because, you know, it does sneak up. It has snuck up a lot throughout the job. I I’ve learned tapping mechanisms. So I’ll do some tapping. But when I do feel that overwhelming feeling coming on, And I have great coworkers that understand my body language, which is so amazing. So they ask if I need a break or if I need the lights off or you know, so I really think that they’re a safe place for me. And it’s talking to people. I think that’s the major thing. Talking to people and telling them, No. I’m not okay right now because I believe that grief can be swept under the rug and I believe that’s what happened during my childhood and even when my dad did pass. It was like that. But I had to learn to use my voice and the tools like you, Victoria, and my therapist, Stephanie, and that’s where it’s changed. I’m like, I am greedy. I need to show these feelings. I will show them.
Victoria Volk: What was the biggest takeaway do you think that you got from the program? And Yeah, just what was the biggest takeaway for you?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Oh, gosh. I told everybody that I didn’t realize that grief wasn’t just losing somebody. I think that was my biggest takeaway. Grief is loss of a job. I mean, Grief is starting a new job. I mean, I feel like I grieved so much during since August. Since I did start a new job and everything.
Victoria Volk: And you moved? Yes. I moved neighbors, new community, new city.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. So I that’s all grief and one. And So, yeah, you’ve taught me that, Victoria, that it’s just not losing my dad. It’s it’s losing a whole eighteen years of being a special education teacher and, you know, that was my decision. That was my decision for my mental health to say, I need a change.
And yet even with that, I grieve my students. I I wonder where they are and I know in August, I saw these bus all the buses coming out, and I was just like, I just felt sad. I was like, you know, by this time, last year, I was a teacher. I was getting my room set up. So, yeah, grief is not just losing somebody, and that’s the biggest thing that you’ve taught me.
Victoria Volk: How has the transition been for you into this new career, into the new community, and and the tools that you’ve leaned on to work through those transitions?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: It’s been difficult. I I it’s been difficult with the transitions. I really don’t like change
Victoria Volk: Oh, does.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Exactly. Who does?
Victoria Volk: People don’t.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. But I just talked to my therapist, like, maybe a couple of minutes ago, and I was just, like, you know, I’m gonna embrace it. And what I’m doing is embracing the changes and maybe the yuckiness that I don’t like. And with my tools, with my tapping, with making sure I’m grounding myself, even taking a break at work, like going outside and walking, it’s really helped me to come back. To what I need to do. Like, even if it’s getting back on the computer and, you know, doing my data my data abstraction or, you know, getting on a meeting, It’s a challenge that I work through it.
Victoria Volk: Now, when you live you you lived with your mom in Houston. Are you living by yourself now in Austin?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes, I am.
Victoria Volk: That’s another big change. Right? So it has not been going. Like, it’s almost like you’re like, yeah, you you were with somebody. You know, you were with your mom and now that how has that changed? As it bedded your relationship, sometimes sometimes we aren’t meant to live with our parents, you know, and that clash especially, you know, when you’re as an adult, you know?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. Well, she was the one that said, I need my space. So I wanted to Okay. That yeah. If she I wanted to honor her and acknowledge her and get her space, the space that she needed. And so, you know, I was ready. I was I was ready to make the move and everything I missed home this weekend, so I did go home and I got some long time. So I I really wanna say that our relationship has grown stronger since we’ve really been apart. Yeah. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Distance makes the heart grow fun or they say. Right?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. It does.
Victoria Volk: Maybe it was something you didn’t I mean, do you look do you look back now, like, the time that you were with your mom, and then now the time that you’re are more on that you’re on your own? And have your own space, like, have you found that that you did too need it?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes, I have found that I’ve needed my space, you know. That’s all I ever knew. I mean, since we did take care of dad and and then afterwards, I mean, she was all I ever She’s all I ever knew. And I was just like, okay, time to cut the cord. And it’s been wonderful for us.
Victoria Volk: You know? Do you almost feel like because you both were caring for your dad? That you maybe there was a part of you that was finding it difficult to let go of caring for her, like, when your dad passed and then this tendency to wanna care for somebody else. You know, we can kinda replace that loss Right? You know this from the group differently. You know, if someone passes away, maybe we or moves or whatever, like my child started kindergarten, my last one, I got a dog. I replaced that loss. To put that love somewhere else. Right? That love and care somewhere else into something else? Do you feel like that’s kind of what you were trying to do after your dad passed and and caring for your mom and maybe too much? And she was like, wait. Wait a minute. You don’t need to do this.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. I do feel like I was doing that. And I wanted to protect her, you know, I wanted to care for her, I wanted to protect her I didn’t wanna leave the house that, you know, I grew up in. I thought, you know, maybe Dad would come back and it was just, you know, being there for her. Like, I felt like I needed to be there for her, but she was the one saying, Okay. I gotta beep by myself. I gotta learn how to live by myself because this was my husband for, like, thirty five plus years.
Victoria Volk: Very true. And again, like, that’s a perspective. Maybe as you the grieber, aren’t really thinking, you know, it’s like I need to be there for her, but yet at the same time, you know, we often don’t think about the other person’s perspective or what it’s like their experience and their shoes. Like, no, I I need to learn what it’s like to be on my own because it was her first now it’s her first time too, really.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. That is yeah. I mean, at our risk, I love her so much for saying that when she needed to. Like first, it was like You wanna get rid of me? But I think I’d go back to, you know, it kinda makes me think of when my dad did pass and everybody was telling me to, you know, go back to work right away and she gave me the space that I needed. I was like, mom, I can’t go back to work. Like, I need to grieve and she she was the one that just said, go to your aunt’s house. She has an empty room. Go. And And I don’t know why I connect those two, but I do.
It’s just like, you know, she gave me the space that I needed, and so I guess that’s why it connects. I’m giving her the space that she wants and needs. So, yeah.
Victoria Volk: I’m glad it’s been a beautiful experience for you both and that it’s ultimately brought you closer together. And I think that’s a beautiful thing because you very well could have been like heartbroken and sad that, you know, and maybe even resentful that she’s now kicking you out of the house in a way. You know, like, you could have taken it that way. Like, she’s kicking you out, but really, it was from a place of love and and her communicating her needs and that that’s I’m so glad that you were both honoring that for each other. That’s a beautiful thing.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. She’s amazing.
Victoria Volk: Through the program though, you also work on another relationship. Mhmm. You know, it’s a twelve week program. So what was the other relationship that you worked on? And what would you like to share about that?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: The relationship that I worked on was with my sister, Caitlyn. And I chose that relationship because my sister and I have never had a really great bond, not sisterly, you know. It’s like we call each other or we text each other, but that’s about it. So I worked on it because I wanna grow closer to her. And right now, she has a baby. I’m a I’m an aunt. And so it was important for me to work on it to grow closer to her.
Victoria Volk: And how has that changed your relationship? Do you feel?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: It’s I mean, we talk more. I call her more. She calls me. She sends pictures of the baby. You know, she’s helped me with work a lot. I have a meeting coming up, so she’s helped me tweak some of my thought point my thinking points up. So I would say that the bond’s growing in a direction that I want you know, I saw her in September, her and the baby, and she just let me take charge of the baby. She was just like, you’re in charge of cleaning the diaper, go ahead, and he’s feeding. I was like, okay. And, I mean, I even saw her in mother mode. Like, I it was just amazing. Like, what she was doing. She she’s so detailed and so, you know, just loving with the baby. That detailed in, like, she knows what he eats. She wants to know how much he eats. And, you know, I just I love seeing in her in action and she’s she even called me and said that she knows I’ve been having some difficult times and she’s, you know, she’s here for me. So it’s grown stronger since I’ve worked on that relationship.
Victoria Volk: I love that for you. Because I know she was a huge advocate for you too even before you met me.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. Yes. She was a huge advocate. And she was a huge advocate in in stating that I needed to get diagnosed with autism. You know, this is probably the first time that I’m actually saying something like this. But in the past, I was I was misdiagnosed with bipolar. And over medicated. And I felt like a robot in my entire life until until in my thirties, you know, I saw a different psychiatrist, and he went through everything with me. All the questionnaires, everything. And he was just like, yeah, I’m not seeing. What the other person is in.
Victoria Volk: How many years were you medicated for? Kermit’s diagnosis of bipolar, which is crazy to me.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. Probably fifteen years.
Victoria Volk: Wow.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Until my thirties, like, when I was fifteen, you know, fifteen years.
Victoria Volk: When you started to question and your sister was kind of encouraging you. Is that kind of
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. I started questioning probably in my late twenties because I kept on saying I’m a robot. I feel like I’m not in my body. Mhmm. And then I did see that. It was It was just an amazing person. You know, he heard me. I forgot his name right now, but thank you. And he just listened to me and he unchecked all the boxes of thigh fuller, and he said something else is going on. And then that’s when my sister in my thirties, I remember. She sent me a video of women being misdiagnosed and being misdiagnosed as bipolar, schizophrenia, a lot of different things. And then finally in their forties, late thirties being diagnosed with autism. And it just really hit me. It it hit me in a good and bad way. I was just like, what? I was like, no. This can’t be it. But then I was just like, maybe this these are the answers to why I had such a difficult time in school and why it was difficult for me to communicate with my parents. So Yeah, Adi, how are you – how are you
Victoria Volk: – I know you mentioned you had to have a therapist now, but how have you – does this therapist believe that you are on the spectrum? And then also how are you managing now your mental health and that in that way?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. She does believe that around I am on the spectrum, and and she has given me she really doesn’t have that expertise. So what something new, Victoria? So on Friday, I believe that was October eighteenth. I actually got officially tested. Oh. So I don’t know the results, but We’ll see in, like, three weeks what the results are that I think I don’t need that validation. I know who I am, what my past was, how my childhood was, and even talking to my parents, the difficulties that I did have. It just validates what my sister has been advocating for me.
Victoria Volk: I’ve had other guests who have, you know, had questioned mental health diagnosis for many years and then received that diagnosis. And for some, it can it surprised them of how impactful it was. Then at the same time, it’s like, well, it doesn’t change anything. Right? Like, it doesn’t change my heart, it doesn’t change who I am, and you know, you’re still gonna be Delyla. Right? You’re still gonna be highly functioning. Right? I mean, you can you got your bachelor’s degree. You’re working in research and you’re living on your own, like, you can still have an amazing quality of life regardless of whatever diagnosis you have.
And I think that’s an inspiring thing for people to hear.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: So I’m glad you shared about it here.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Thank you. Yes. I am too. Some of my coworkers do know, but not everybody. And I’m just, you know, My sister said it best. Embrace it. Don’t hide yourself because it is very tiring, you know, trying to just grow go with the crowd and everything, but I that I’m gonna change that perspective, you know. I’m Delilah. And like you said, nothing’s gonna change that.
Victoria Volk: How have you seen that as being a challenging thing for you though in in terms of in terms of relationships and connecting with people, how has it been challenging for you? What have you learned that can might be helpful to others?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. Gosh. I guess, with friendship relationships. It’s been very challenging. I will trust the wrong people. Yeah. And I’ll give them a second or chance. And than that their chances enough. You know? And I trust a lot. And it’s really hard when that trust is broken. It it hurts. And so I’ve lost a lot of friendships. And, yeah, like, I lost a friendship over a misleading conversation that one of their friends said something differently that I was, like, hitting on them. And I was, like, I’m not hitting on you. Like but it was, like, my friend didn’t trust me. And I was like, can you give me the proof? Like, that I’m doing this? And they couldn’t. And I was just like, well, I I’m not doing what you’d think I’m doing. And after that, it was just a realization that, okay, we’ve been friends for two plus years. And this is gonna be the end of it because you can you don’t believe me and they went on their own way and I’ve gone on their own way. I It was hard, but I guess it was better that’s for the both of us. So within that, that friendships are really hard. Like I said, I
Victoria Volk: can’t for anybody. Yeah. And let’s be real.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Right.
Victoria Volk: Even as in your forties, which happy belated birthday, by the way, which was in September
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: though. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: It’s it’s no different. It’s like you still feel like the kid on the playground you know, that was traumatized because somebody said something and, you know, assassinated your character or made up rumors or lies and, you know, you know, you feel like this defensive little child on the inside, you know. Right. Yeah. It’s no different in your forties. I think that’s the, you know, mean girls, elementary school, become mean girls as adults. I mean, let’s be real.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. I mean, they really do. And I guess now in my forties, I guess that’s when they say, you kinda know what you want and, you know, And I and I feel that. You know? I I do know what I want. I I think I’ve always known what I want, but it’s just like, you know, enough playing around. Like, if you’re gonna be my friend, like, This is how it’s gonna be, and I’m gonna have boundaries. And I do have those boundaries. So I have I have my coworkers, Ida and Adriah. They’re amazing girls, and we weren’t as co workers, but we’re friends as well. And like I said, they they’re just amazing. You know? And I believe that they’re a friendship that will last, and I would like it to last. It is very difficult to make friends.
Victoria Volk: But Especially in the new place. Right? New place, like, job, like, know, you like that kid on the playground again. Like, yes. And the the new kid at this, you know, that moved to town and
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: yes. Or the one I remember soccer. Like, I was a big soccer player on the field. And I was just like, I was one enough who’s gonna pick me. So, like, yeah, it’s just that whole thing over again. But I think that’s what just makes me, you know, grow grow. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: It’s like you you grow through your insecurities and putting yourself in uncomfortable positions, which is what you’ve done. And and I just wanna commend you because do you feel like before you went through the program. And I’m not saying doing the program was the only thing and the one thing that changed everything. I mean, it did for me, but that might not be true for you. What do you think is true for you though? The Delyla before do grief differently in the Delyla now?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: It is true that with doing grief differently. I had to go head on with the messiness. I literally had to be the lotus that grew in the mud. And before then, I wanted to escape. There’s still an inkling nummy that sometimes wants to escape, but like even today, I told my therapist I said I wanted October to be over, but then I embraced it. I was like October. I’m here. The Delyla before would shut the door on her parent and cry underneath her blanket and or maybe scream. Today, I’m doing grief differently. I’m embracing it.
Victoria Volk: I love how you threw that in. Because that’s what it’s called. Right? Let’s do this differently. Let’s do this differently. That’s the whole point. I’m just so happy for you that you’ve had this lowest moment in your life. This it’s a chapter that is going to unequivocally impact the rest of the chapters in your life.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Mhmm. What do
Victoria Volk: you look forward to most? Oh, gosh. What gives you hope for the future?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: What gives me hope is the work that I do. You know, I started out as a special education teacher, and I’ve always worked with students on the spectrum and various abilities. And now I’m embracing my own uniqueness. So I guess that just that was in itself knowing that it’s never too late to do something. That gives me hope for the future and just knowing that I have a lot of love to give and I know I can do hard things. That gives me hope for the future. I used to not like the word resilient, but I’m always hearing that from my mom. She’s just like you’re resilient to dilate. And you know, I am, but I can also be vulnerable. And vulnerability might get me in trouble a little, but or it just may scare me, but I think that’s what the world needs. Vulnerability. Love caring me. Yeah. Just life in general. I don’t know. I’m ready to have I’m just ready to enjoy life.
Victoria Volk: I wish I had a clip from our first session together in early twenty twenty three
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And do a side by side. It’s like night and day.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: I know. It is
Victoria Volk: because I don’t record the sessions. And there’s a reason for that, but, you know, because it’s like, you know, for your privacy and all of that, I don’t record sessions. But I think one of the I don’t know if it was with you that I started it, were you write yourself a letter? Mhmm. Beginning.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Did we circle back to that at the end? I don’t think we called now. We didn’t.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: I know I wrote a letter to myself, but I’m not. We circled back to it.
Victoria Volk: I don’t think we did. And it’s it was just for you. Right? It was just for you, but I’m curious, do you remember anything from that? And and like Oh, no.
I I hate to put you on the spot.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: No. It’s fine. No. I I think
Victoria Volk: it’s like, do you feel like that letter you wrote? Resonates with the you now. I really do.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: You know, I I feel it does resonate, you know, with because I was so lost back then. And I wanted better for myself. So, you know, I’m going out of my comfort zone. And, you know, I I I told a guy that I liked them. And it didn’t like and didn’t go the way I was planning on doing it or how I wanted the outcome, but I did it. And that was my first time that I ever did that. So yeah. And I’m doing acrobatic stuff. So I wanna say that that letter was to enjoy life and do something different, which I did. You know, I I said goodbye to teaching and got a research job. So, yeah, all in all, I think that letter I’m living that letter. I’m living that letter to myself, and now I really wanna find that letter.
Victoria Volk: Yes. You should. It’s it’s like a time capsule. Right? Yes.
And it was with you that I started that. So every client now I have them do that because I think it sets the intention for who you who you want to be and where you want to be to twelve weeks following, you know? Yeah. And an aspect of the program too was you map where we look at your strengths and skills and values? And how has that what role did that play in you transitioning and finding this other role? And what you learned about yourself? That you didn’t, like, really it’s so easy for us to point out the great things in other people. Right? But to own what we bring to the table. And so how did that help you?
And that how did that part of the program help you?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: That program really helped me see that I am truly worthy of you know, something different, something challenging, you know. I’m a data abstractor, so I’m behind the computer, analyzing various things. And it was just like, I have to say when I went into the interview, I didn’t think I had any of the qualities, but I Victoria, doing that work with you, the values and made me realize that I had a lot of skills transferrable to from education to a research associate. So it just gave me the to, like, ace that interview and just be, like, Okay. I may have some weaknesses, but I can learn. Mhmm. And it has it has been a learning curve. I I wanna say that I may not be given a lot of tasks, but it’s because I’m still new at the job, so everybody’s trying to figure out figure me out and I get that. So I’m just I’m being there and I’m being a helper. I’m being I’m being honest. I’m being open. And I’m saying, you know, these are the skills that I have. This is what I need to work on. And, yeah,
Victoria Volk: I just pulled up your u map because I wanted to to just share with listeners. And you and just a reminder to you, your top five strengths are adaptability. Like, whoa. You’ve totally been doing that. Right? Deliberative. Which isn’t executing strength. So adaptability is a relating strength. Deliberative isn’t executing strength. And so you take serious care in making decisions or choices.
You anticipate obstacles. So that’s a great quality to have. Mhmm. A great strength to have. And then you have two thinking things, intellect and input, which are wonderful for what the job that you’re doing. Right?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And then developer is your final one, and that’s a relating strength. And you recognize and cultivate the potential in others, which is great for team building and working as a unit with other people. And also the adaptability piece in relating to other people. Recognizing that, you know, your strengths may not be the same aren’t not gonna be the same as other peoples. And so adapting to the strengths that other people bring as well. Right. And I love I’m just looking at your top values too. Authenticity and adventure. Mhmm. Community, boldness, compassion, trust, respect, leadership, determination, balance. And you have a lot of the your most preferred skills. I see in what you’re doing assess, observe, research study.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. What?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Speed others, initiate change. Yeah. Collaborate. It just seems like a lot of what and and you’re the doer and the helper. It’s getting the job done, but in community with other people. Right. And I’m so happy for you that you found a nurturing environment in order for you to grow in as well. Thank you. I’m so happy for you.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: That’s good. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: I just wanted to share with people listening that this is how your grief differently. The impact it can have on someone’s life is we don’t just look at the grief itself. It’s not all sad and gloom, doom and gloom. Right? Like, it is because it has to be. We have to look at the past because it’s influencing and impacting your future in your present day. You would agree with that. Correct? I will It was impacting your life tremendously.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes.
Victoria Volk: So you have to look at it. And work through it. And now, like, today, you took today off, you’re honoring your energy, you’re honoring any sadness that comes up for you because even going through the program, you’re still gonna feel sad. Right?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: That’s yep. It never stops.
Victoria Volk: But the difference now is, can you articulate now for listeners how that how that is different today than it was before you did this program? That exactly, like that pain that you felt Yeah. What that would do to you? And now what happens? Like, today instead?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Oh, today or before the sadness would overcome me. I wouldn’t wanna get out of bed. I would I basically wanna just shut the world out.
Victoria Volk: How’d you feel physically?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Tired, exhausted, mad at the world.
Victoria Volk: Probably not ready to go on a bike ride.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Oh, yeah. Never. Yes. I I definitely put on you know, physically, I was putting on weight, and then it was not only affecting me, but it was affecting my mom. Again, we were living together. So me being mopee around the house or not coming out of the room affected her, and then she was worried about me. So she couldn’t do her own grieving. So that’s back then. Now, I’m living on my own. I am I honor him in different ways. Like, I’ll take his ashes and we’ll go on a bike ride and I’ll spread him somewhere that I really enjoy. Now, I can talk about it. I don’t. I’m not so depressed. You know? It doesn’t it doesn’t feel so heavy on my heart anymore. Like I felt I’ve really felt Victoria that I felt so heavy. Like, I was I consumed all this stuff that I couldn’t communicate, but I can communicate about it now, whether it be journaling or to my mom, I’ll call my mom, and I’ll just be like, this is how it is, or I’ll call my sister, or I’ll talk to my coworkers, my very close coworkers. So now it’s I can talk about it and it doesn’t weigh so heavy on me. And I have this, I guess, more light in my in my face.
I mean, I guess if you were to see me back then versus now, like, I definitely can tell that there’s, like, a different energy going on.
Victoria Volk: You’re permeating. You know what I mean? It’s grief is energy, joy is energy too. Right? And so if we’re feeling that heaviness within ourselves.
That’s what we are projecting. That’s why you said your that’s why your mom was feeling that too and and she couldn’t grieve because of course she’s your mom and she I mean, that was a perspective that I don’t you didn’t draw that connection. When you were going through the program with me, like, that wasn’t even something you were considering.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Right?
Victoria Volk: And so it’s like now she can breathe maybe. A little bit, you know you know, because now she can focus on herself and her grief.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Right?
Victoria Volk: And you can work on thriving. Yes.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Which it seems like you’re doing. So I’m so happy for you. That’s exciting. I love the Delilah that has now been expressed that was always there. Right? Like, this Delilah was always
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: there. It
Victoria Volk: was just you know, like I said, it’s like a veil that you wear. Right?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: You
Victoria Volk: know, you can’t see yourself clearly, so you don’t see others clearly.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And now that you’ve worked through all that stuff, you can look at your mom and you can see the impact that that was having on her. You see things more clearly?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes.
Victoria Volk: And you see what you bring to the table in relationships, and what you need in response to others in connection with you.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Mhmm. Yes.
Victoria Volk: And you have the language?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. I do. I do have the language. I it’s it’s amazing, you know. And I You know, I still do the work every single day.
It never stops.
Victoria Volk: And as soon as that was my next step, I was gonna segue into that.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: No. I mean, Victoria, I think you said it as like it never stops. He continued to do the work. And so I do do the work. I see a therapist every other week, sometimes weekly, and I’m the one that voices it. I’m like, I need to see you next week. Can we can we open this face up? And she’s always been grateful to do that. So, yes, it’s always doing the work. I may have a hiccup, you know, go back to, well, what about this? Or what if this? You know, maybe with my dad. While he was in the hospital, but then I’m just like, okay, do I want this has happened, you know, do some journaling, or maybe write a poem about it, and I do. And then I think about how he’s not in suffering anymore, how he’s not in pain, and how I’m not in pain anymore. I mean, I know pain will always come back in some aspect that it doesn’t weigh so heavy, so much on me where I just shut the world out.
Victoria Volk: Sadness and pain are very different. Right? And that’s what I said. You’re still gonna feel sad today. Of course, it’s not gonna be pain, settings from the pain. Yeah. Yeah.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yeah. That isn’t. So yeah.
Victoria Volk: What would you tell people who are not sure what to do. I mean, because I you were that was you at at one point. Right? Like, you didn’t know what to do. Like, what what was the thing that told you? I I just gotta do this. Like, that kept that because people can come up with all kinds of excuses. Right? I don’t have the time. I don’t have the money. I don’t have the mental bandwidth. I got so much going on. I’ve got kids. I gotta do this. I gotta do that. We don’t make the time for yourselves. What was the thing that helped you to just make that decision to invest in yourself and do this?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: I think it was me and my mom how much of an impact I was, like, my depression and everything was impacting her and just being so closed off and wanting to sleep. So, like, I think it was just everything. Like, the the sleeping, the crying. I was just tired of it because it was even making me more tired. I was like, when is this gonna stop? And just the thoughts of, like, it should have been me instead of him. Because I remember saying if I could have given my heart to him, I would, you know. But it was, like, I want to say it was that moment that I was like, I need to find somebody. I need to find some help. I I need a wrap my head around this. I need somebody to guide me because I don’t know what I’m doing. And if I went if an eye and if I kept on going down that hole, it would have been bad. But, I mean, I’m so grateful that I found do grief differently. And I was given the tools to help me, myself, and my family. Because again, Victoria, I think you said it best. Like, I didn’t realize how much it was impacting my family until now I think about it, I reflect, and it was.
Victoria Volk: What would you say to somebody who’s sitting across from you a friend and they’re considering this? What would you say to them?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Do it. Do it. It’s worth it. You’ll learn a lot about yourself. You’ll break down some barriers.
Don’t cry. You’ll get angry. But all of those emotions and feelings are validated. And I, you know, if it was a close friend sitting right next to me, I would be there. I would tell them I’m holding your hand throughout the entire way. I’m gonna be here for you. So if it’s for anybody, like, Zoom people, I’ll be here for you. You know? Yeah. Just do it.
You’ll see
Victoria Volk: if there was? Yes. If there was anything you could have changed about the program or anything that was missing, what would you say?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Oh gosh. I I really feel like the program was just great. Everything was great. I do I do love the addition to the letter to yourself. So keep on doing that. No. I I wouldn’t change anything. I I loved it. It helped me. So
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And these questions were not rehearsed by the way. Yeah. I did not send you these questions. So No. He did it. I wanted the true honest, you know, response in the moment. So thank you so much for sharing. And, again, I know what it did for me. I know what it’s done for you. I know what it’s done with the countless people who have gone through it. And so I I appreciate you so much for sharing your story of the Delilah before and the Delilah now. And I’m I love this is what I love. It’s transformative. And this is You are a perfect example of of how it transformed your life. What you put in the work? I give you the credit. The credit doesn’t go to me. Sure. I resuscitated it. I held your hand, but you did the work. And everyone who goes through the program, they do the work. And it’s it might seem cookie cutter. Right? Like, your friend, if you have a friend that would go through it, they’d go through this exact same process you did. But It’s different because it’s your unique story. It’s your unique grief. It’s your unique process that you’re taking yourself through. And that’s why it’s not cookie cutter.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. It doesn’t. Every thought story is different. Definitely.
Victoria Volk: Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t feel you got to?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: I just I wanna say, Vivek, thanks to my mom, my mom, Olga Boyer, just for you know, be in there. She’s always been there. And I know she will. Just and I I think everyone on this journey It’s been a journey. There’s been ups and downs, but I am holding to the ups. And I know there will be some downs sometimes, but like my mom said, I’m resilient and I will continue to do my work, my advocacy work, my research, I’m a big researcher. And, you know, in the future, I hope to continue my political advocacy work was special special education children because those children are very deeply connected to me even though teachers out there. So even though I’m not a teacher anymore, I always think about my teachers. So, yeah. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And thank you for the work that you do in your advocacy work and for to be in the voice for those children. The future children that I have no doubt that you are going to advocate for. So thank you so much for being the light in this world that is so needed too.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Thank you, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: And I have one final question. Yes. What has your grief taught you?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: My grief has taught me. That it’s my grief. It’s nobody else’s. I can sweep you off your feet whenever whenever you at least expect it to,
Victoria Volk: and not in a romantic way.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Exactly. Not in a romantic way. It is I can sweep you off your feet where you’ll get stuck in the mud again. But I can’t wanna say that I just sit there with it. And I’m just like, okay. Let’s do this. Let’s okay. I’m feeling some crying. Let’s do this grief. Let’s do this together. And why are we doing this? Oh, because something, you know, because that memory of dad came up, you know? Or, you know, you were vulnerable. So Okay. And it didn’t turn out the way you wanted it too. Let’s just sit with it. So it’s it’s taught me not to bury it because if you bury it, it just gets worse.
Victoria Volk: What is the lesson your dad taught you that comes to your mind, you know, daughters and their dads, you know,
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Oh gosh. I wanna say when he decided to take the morphine, he did it himself. He made that decision. And he asked us each one. Or he told me he was like, don’t be mad if I do this. I was just like, why would I be mad? You know? You’re in so much pain. I don’t want that from you. Do I want to be selfish and happy forever? Yes. But he taught me me, bravery, he taught me how to be courageous. The many times that I was with him in the hospital. He taught me even on his less thigh and breath. You know, I my whole family just stood there around him. That death is a part of life and that he did it when he needed to go. So he taught me love and compassion even those last seconds when we were just there. Those last minutes, hours. You know? He he taught me breath free even though I was crying my eyes out and everything. And he taught me that he’ll never leave me even though he’s not physically here, that he’s guiding me along the way. So, yeah, he he taught me a lot.
Victoria Volk: What’s your favorite memory of him if you have one?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: There’s so many. But I guess one that really pops out right now is he was a stickler for just getting me to school. Like, he wanted me to have perfect attendance throughout the entire elementary school year. So it was raining and the rainwater was up to his knees. So his car stalled. And what he ended up doing is he was determined again to get me to school. So he put me on his shoulders. And he walked me, like, maybe, two blocks just to school, just to get me to school. And he did, you know, he was all wet. He was trrenched. And I don’t know why that memory popped up, but it was just like him being determined. Like, you’re getting to school.
Victoria Volk: This summer hell or high water.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. Exactly that. Come home or high water he has. And so, yeah, that memory just pops up, I guess, as well because it’s he was determined and he he always knew I was determined. So and somebody can say no, but you keep on going or, you know, you just keep on paddling, whatever it takes.
Victoria Volk: And never miss school. There’s no excuse. Like, you get your degree, you get it done, you do it. Yes.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. So much. Yes. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: There’s a lot of lessons in that. One one event. Right? Yes. Oh, that’s a great memory.
Thank you for sharing.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Thank you. I wish you
Victoria Volk: a beautiful rest of your day of honoring your dad and honoring your your grief and the sadness. However, it comes up and I hope this expression of your love for him has helped you feel connected to him today and feel a little lighter Yeah. And to be an advocate for other grovers that there is hope There is hope.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: There is. So thank
Victoria Volk: you so much for your time today.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Thank you, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: And if anyone wants to connect with you, how can they find you? Are you on social?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. Social. I have a LinkedIn at Deliloh Avaya Boyer. You can find me there. I do have an Instagram delightful Deliloh.
Yeah. And I have a Facebook Deliloh Avaya Boyer. So yeah.
Victoria Volk: I will link to those in the show notes if anyone wants to connect with you. Maybe there’s some collaboration as far as children with special needs.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes.
Victoria Volk: See work? Things like that, maybe opportunities that can flood your way to, like, padalila?
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Yes. I I am working on some cohorts right now, so political advocacy cohorts. So, yes, anything. Oh, thank you.
Victoria Volk: I’m happy to share that in the show notes. So thank you so much for your time again today, Delyla.
Delyla Ovalle-Bowyer: Thank you, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
D Paul Fleming, a retired Navy veteran and spiritual healer, shares his lifelong journey from trauma to healing. His story is a testament to resilience, as he recounts overcoming severe childhood abuse detailed in his book “2,442 Steps To Crazy.”
Through writing and sharing his experiences, Fleming found therapeutic relief while inspiring fellow veterans facing similar challenges. D Paul and I discuss the systemic issues within the Veterans Affairs (VA) healthcare system. Despite its flaws—such as inconsistent care and bureaucratic hurdles—our conversation highlights the need for holistic support addressing physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual pain.
Fleming’s narrative underscores the power of storytelling in healing processes and advocates for creating safe spaces where veterans can freely express their vulnerabilities without judgment. He emphasizes unity among veterans regardless of their roles or experiences during service. Reflecting on personal anecdotes about confronting suicide temptations due to VA shortcomings further illustrates these struggles’ complexity.
Ultimately, Fleming inspires hope by urging others to share and listen deeply—a call to action reminding us that through collective understanding comes strength and healing beyond individual battles faced alone.
RESOURCES:
- Book, 2,442 Steps to Crazy
- Book, A Date with Suicide
- Donald Dunn – Hero Stock
- Operation Deep Dive
- Gretchen Smith | Code of Vets
- Grief Recovery Method
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Healing Through Storytelling – A Veteran’s Journey
In a recent episode of the podcast “Grieving Voices,” I had the great conversation with D Paul Fleming, an individual whose life story is as compelling as it is poignant. As a retired and disabled US Navy veteran, his narrative weaves through personal trauma, spiritual awakening, and relentless advocacy for fellow veterans. The episode offers profound insights into the challenges faced by veterans while simultaneously providing hope and inspiration.
Unveiling Childhood Trauma
Fleming’s journey begins with his difficult upbringing—a childhood marred by extreme abuse at the hands of a stepfather he refers to as “Crazy.” His book 2,442 Steps TO Crazy serves not just as a memoir but also as an act of catharsis. It was only after sharing this deeply personal account that Fleming realized its impact; other veterans have credited his work with saving their lives. In writing about physical injuries such as broken bones alongside more insidious verbal abuse, Fleming opens up about psychological scars that can often feel invisible yet profound.
Spiritual Awakening Amidst Turmoil
Despite such adversity, Fleming found solace in faith—a guiding force throughout his tumultuous journey. He speaks candidly about moments where he felt watched over by something greater than himself—an awareness that spurred him on even when despair loomed large. This spiritual connection aligns closely with both his Native American heritage and Irish Catholic upbringing—two worlds merging into one path toward healing.
A significant portion of this dialogue critiques systemic issues within the Veterans Affairs (VA) healthcare system—a quagmire rather than sanctuary according to many narratives shared during discussions like these ones held between host & guest alike! From inconsistent care plagued by bureaucratic obstacles downplayed mental health concerns especially around suicide prevention summits attended mainly non-veterans themselves lacking firsthand understanding military life experiences altogether!
Fleming recounts how systemic failures forced him towards private healthcare solutions ultimately yielding better diagnoses long-standing medical issues highlighting inadequacies inherent VA structure itself which fails address integrative needs encompassing physical emotional spiritual realms simultaneously necessary comprehensive treatment plans tailored specifically each individual’s unique circumstances histories backgrounds etcetera…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Oh, friends. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Greeting Voices. If this is your first time listening, thank you for being here. And if you are returning, thank you for coming back. Today, my guest is D Paul Fleming, he is a retired and disabled US Navy veteran, life coach, business consultant, public speaker, and published author. In alignment with his native American heritage and spiritual gifts, he is also a seasoned holy man. Spiritual adviser and healer. And today, we are going to be talking about your work and what you’re doing for veteran suicide. And so I’m very honored to have you as a guest.
I am also a veteran. My husband is a veteran. I come from a long line of veterans. And so thank you for sharing your story today and for bringing this awareness to my podcast.
D Paul Fleming: Well, I’m grateful to be on your show. Thank you so much for having me.
Victoria Volk: Often people do the work that they’re doing because they often have a personal story and there’s something that led them to take that path of being a healer, being a spiritual adviser, in your work, doing the work that you’re doing with veterans and suicide. But I wanna start back in your early life and what were the messages and lessons that you’ve experienced in grief and trauma or anything in childhood. Because what I have found is that especially people who have had a lot of grief or trauma in their childhood and they go into the military, it can be compounded. And I really firmly believe that there’s a larger conversation there as in terms of when it comes to aces, like adverse childhood experiences and with veterans. So I’d wanna dig deeper into that later in the conversation, so we’ll put a pin in that. But let’s start first with your origin story, if you don’t mind.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. That’s a that’s a big topic to cover. I actually put it out in the very first book that I ever wrote, two thousand four hundred and forty two steps to crazy. And it kinda takes you from my first memory, which is being tossed through the air and in the corner of a couch and breaking a couple of bones through the my last day with the stepfather, which I call crazy for for good reason. The part that kind of dovetails into a veteran’s life is everything I wrote in that book I never talked about. I’ve been married for, as I like to say, fifty years Right? And never said anything to my wife and certainly never said anything to my kids. So when I wrote the first book of my childhood and handed it to my wife and published form, was the first time she knew anything about it. It took her a few days to kinda come around to to talk to me. And, you know, when she did, you know, the first things out of her mouth was you weren’t abused. You were tortured. You know, you kind of kind of made me draw back and say, you know, I never really looked at it that way, you know. From my experience, abused children kind of blamed themselves for everything. Right? So whether you whether you really believe it’s your fault or not, that’s kind of the overall feeling that you’re left with that that life of, you know, being told from first memories to you know, when you finally get out of those situations that you’re you’re nothing. You’re never gonna amount anything. You’re terrible. You’re you’re relying on this and that and and so on. You know, the verbal abuse is probably the most destructive, you know, the physical abuse, the broken bones, the, you know, the concussions, the, you know, all the things that I had to survive through, you know, are are not as memorable as the as the verbal abuse. That that sticks with me to this day. And it’s very very difficult to to overcome. Very difficult.
Victoria Volk: What does that look like for you?
D Paul Fleming: You
Victoria Volk: know overcoming it? I mean, I imagine that it was very therapeutic to write the book, but what how did you get to that point where you were even able to put it into words on paper?
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. I I do my best to try and keep these answers not long winded, but the but to really answer that is a very, very long conversation. So let me see if I can kinda cliff note it. As far back as I can remember, I’ve had a deep, deep faith. And it, you know, a couple of points in my life I got pretty pissed off and started blaming God and so on as many of us do that live through top stuff. Right? But my faith is what kinda kept me upright. And in the end, it was my faith that kind of time. My faith is is kind of my cornerstone. And even in the darkest times when I was, you know, terrified and terrorized and brutalized, I always had in the back of my head somewhere that feeling, that sense, that something was there watching over me and kinda fast forward through life, if you will. It started coming to me that I need to I need to write this book, I need to start telling these stories. And I had an argument with myself, the baby Jesus, God, every spirit known to man forever. I’m not writing a book, I’m not telling a story. Who the hell wants to hear my crap? Right? I nobody’s gonna read this. Nobody. Well, I finally had to give up and and say, alright. Fine. If if the baby Jesus is gonna leave me alone, I better write this book. So I sat down and wrote the book, and that was brutal. It was absolutely brutal. It took me, you know, year and a half to to write it. But I wrote it four or five times, threw it out, started over. It was it was difficult. But once I got through remembering and then my wife reading the book, the relief that started coming along. And again, it didn’t all happen at once. It kinda happened as I was writing it. But the relief that came along was transforming. I mean, it really was. It was it was, like, spring cleaning or or emptying your closet, you know, getting all the crap out of there and, you know, turning a light on. You know, I could see what was what had happened to me. You know? And I still blame myself, of course. Right? You know, I can’t undo that piece, but I don’t feel the burden of self blame. You know? And then, of course, when I start talking to other people who start telling their stories, you know, I’m like, jeez. You know, I’m I’m dumbfounded at how many people had, you know, abusive childhoods or relationships and how many people have come to me and said that this book has helped them. And between this and some of my other stuff that I’ve written, I’ve had people, especially veterans, come to me and say, quote, your book saved my life, unquote. So that’s kinda where, you know, that’s kind of the cliff notes that that got me to write the books and tell the story. And then after you do a couple hundred podcasts, you kinda start getting I don’t wanna say numb to it, but, you know, it’s it’s a lot easier to talk about it.
Victoria Volk: May I ask what happened? Where was your father, your biological father, and your mother Oh,
D Paul Fleming: you’re not my father?
Victoria Volk: Yep. Your biological
D Paul Fleming: father. And Yeah. I I didn’t know. I don’t know. I have no idea.
My my mother had first my myself and my brother, you know, out of wedlock and never met him. My brother’s never met his father. And then my mother hooked up with crazy and had a couple kids but I I I don’t know. My my lineage goes through my mother, to my grandfather, it was a full blooded native American junked reservation and the Carlisle schools, if you will. Joined the navy, claimed he was white, and rose to the ranks of being an enlisted man riding submarines in world war two to retiring in nineteen sixty five as a lieutenant. I’m still disowning his Native American heritage because, again, back then, you, you know, you’re a a cook or a, you know, a Boson’s bank. Right? If you’re a black Native American, you know, so That’s kind of the extent of my lineage. You know, I know that I I know from my mother, I know pieces of who the guy was, but, you know, never met him.
Victoria Volk: And as far as the relationship with your mother, because I imagine she’s, you know, brought this gentleman into your home and was there it was I imagine it was just a home of chaos, but what did you Were you able to have a relationship with her?
D Paul Fleming: No.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
D Paul Fleming: No. No. I I to this day, I still can’t understand how a mother can, you know, let somebody abuse her child. You know? I mean, I just don’t I don’t understand how people can hit women. I just don’t. It’s it’s something I’ve I’ve screamed about my whole life. You just don’t hit women. Period. Period. You just don’t do it. And you don’t hit kids. You know what I mean? I I got six kids, but I gotta tell you, I’d love to smack a few of them around. Right? Not some Jesus. Right? But it’s just not it’s not what you do. Again, I’m not telling people you can’t smack your kid on the ass and, you know, crack them in a mouth for custiny or something. I’m not I’m not telling you how to raise your kid. What I’m telling you is, you know, there’s a there’s a pretty significant difference between smacking a kid on the button and, you know, breaking his arm. Or the scar on my nose is from waking up with a a waking up on, you know, I had something thrown at me in the middle of the night from crazy and, you know, I’m clustered and blood and, you know, no idea what the hell is going on. That’s abuse. I mean, that’s just brutal brutal abuse. Right? So no. There was there was never a relationship. You know, I don’t really talk to my mother much. She’s in her eighties now. I’ve seen her once in the last I don’t know a year, but I probably only seen her two or three times in the last five or ten years, you know.
So
Victoria Volk: Sometimes in cases of abuse, there’s one child that kind of gets the brunt of everything, but sometimes
D Paul Fleming: winter baby. Winter, I was the one.
Victoria Volk: So you were the were you the only one that then were all was all were all the children have used to some degree? Or was it were was it pretty much just you? Like Yeah.
D Paul Fleming: I might my brother would get smacked around and I had two younger sisters, they never got touched, you know. But I was, you know, like the like the dog in the pound. Right? I’d step in between them. Mhmm. K? And I would defend my mother. I’d defend my my siblings. I would even instigate to get his attention on me so that he wouldn’t, you know, start beating on the other ones. You know? But my brother has a completely different outlook on all of it. You know? You know, we we don’t talk about it. When I told him I was writing this book, he he he got pretty upset. You know? I mean, bent out of shape, you know. But he doesn’t judge me. I don’t judge him. You know? So kind of we’re we’re still good friends. Right? You know, but just some subject to don’t talk about. He sees he sees our mother, you know, I I wanna say every day, but, you know, he’s constantly constantly whether or around her. No.
Victoria Volk: And there’s grief in that. Right? Like, the the loss of hope streams and expectations of what a family unit could have been and what what could have been, I imagine that Maybe you maybe Yeah. I’m through at some point.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. I I was never able to identify fairly what I wanted for a family. And when I when I hooked up with my wife, she had two kids, and we had four together. You know? So from day one, I felt lost. You know, I didn’t I didn’t know how to be a father. Right? So I would do as much digging as I could to find out the how to do things. And I, you know, couldn’t tell you if I was a good father or bad father. You know, I just know that I did everything I could to the best of my ability. You know, they never went hungry. They never went without paid for their colleges, you know, paid for cars, did it all, you know. But, you know, I’m I’m not a classic father of the sense who I never missed any of the kids sporting events from you know, for decades. Right? You know, I was always there. But, again, I’m kind of a, you know I mean, a veteran by itself is a is an outcast to a degree. Right? You know, we don’t really fit in tomorrow. And I and I kind of preach the veterans. Stop. Stop trying to fit in as a civilian. We’re not civilians. Let’s accept who we are. Right? And be us. Right? We don’t have to fit in anywhere. So and I’m very good at not fitting in. Right? You know?
Victoria Volk: You know, one of the things that came up for me as I was listening to you is sometimes what happens is too, like, children will I mean, they run away a lot. In the case of abuse, they’ll just they’ll run away. Is that, like, did you run away? And
D Paul Fleming: So how funny is that? Along the lines of running away. I In book two of David’s, I don’t know, two thousand four hundred and forty two steps to crazy. That’s that’s about my personal life. Right? In book two, I start talking about this family, Frankie Pilaries, old Italian family. Right? And I mean, old Italian parents didn’t speak English. Right? Wine in the in the shed scrapes all of it. Okay? Well, it was a number of months ago. I I haven’t seen Franki Polari in fifty years. Right? Okay. But he used to have he used to have two or three of the most beautiful sisters on the planet. Again, when you’re ten years old, right? You know, any woman that puts her hand on your shoulder, like, oh my god. Right? I’m in love. Okay. Well, my wife and I are at this farm shop, not not far from our house. I haven’t been there in forever. And this girl’s looking at me and she’s looking at me and finally says, are you dog fleming? And I’m like, yeah. Why? She goes, I’m Frank Pulary’s sister. I’m like, you gotta be kidding me. Right? Why why am I saying that? Well, I think I ran away to Frank Pulary’s shed three or four times. I don’t remember, but she bought the book and she was she was unbelievably shocked at the level of abuse. Because they they had seen it. You know, I I used to run there and run away there and eat and hide until they kinda turn me back over, like like the Gestapo. Right? But, yeah, I’d I’d ran away I I don’t know how many times. I mean, I’d ran away so many times. I’ve never really counted them, you know, And then the final time, the ending of the book, you know, why do you read that? I mean, that was the the ending of steps to crazy. Okay? You wanna talk about something that’s gonna make you think about anything and everything that’s happened in your life? Because I sat there on the razor’s edge. K? Was I going to be murdered or was I going to commit murder? Right? Which was it? Was it self defense? Okay? Because it was one hell of a brawl the last time I was under crazies roof. Right? And all the Right. Last time the cops broke fourteen. Thirteen or fourteen? And that was it. I I I was on I’ve been on my own ever since. So I left Where
Victoria Volk: did you go?
D Paul Fleming: So I I lived on the street for a while. My my first hiding place with a cemetery, but that didn’t work out real well because turns out more homeless people hang out in the cemeteries and you can shake a stick at and, again, this is back fifty years ago. Right? So now I I lived in a cemetery, but I had had strategically placed in different chunks of woods, you know, survival gear. Because I when I couldn’t take it anymore, I would I would leave and, you know, hide in the woods for a few days and, you know, finally it gets so cold, so tired. So I saw much you could do. You know? But yeah. So he used to live in the woods, and then in and out of state, shit for a while, and that that was horrible. That was horrific.
And I mean, horrific. So I was determined never to go back to the state care. And then again, if you kind of if you have faith folks that have a belief in, you know, the supernatural god and so on. You know, you you kinda know that you go through things. And then right when you think it’s all over, right, something walks in and kinda helps you out. Well, for me, there was two people two families that kinda took me in. And as I as I like to say, I would be their debtor and present if it wasn’t for them. So if you’re thinking about being a foster parent or helping out, you know, some young bunk on the street, and I’m here to tell you, you can you can you can change lives. You can change history.
Victoria Volk: My husband and I have talked about it actually.
D Paul Fleming: Now, even even temporary. Now, even even temporary. Right? You know, holidays are just even to this day, holidays to me or a nightmare. Now, I can’t stand absolutely can’t stand. Hate Christmas. Hate my birthday. Right? I don’t want anything to do with it. Right? You know, but but why? Because my memories of those events are horrific. Right? I don’t mean horrific as in, you know, you didn’t get presents right there. I mean, you know, holidays are stressful enough when you’re young raising kids. Right? Now, stressful paying bills. Right? Now, mix crazy into that mess. Into that mess. Okay? And I do mean crazy. Right? No.
Victoria Volk: What happened to him? Was he ever arrested? Was he ever I mean, was your mom married him long after you were he left? And
D Paul Fleming: Yep. You’re you’re ready you’re ready to throw up? He died at the age of seventy three, and my family asked me to to read his ulogy. And to God, I did.
Victoria Volk: You did?
D Paul Fleming: Oh, I I did. Okay? Again, I when I say I I would do anything for my family, I have. Okay? Some of the hardest things I’ve ever done in my life have been done because, you know, my family has asked me to do something. Right? Again, my wife said to me, if you don’t read it, nobody’s gonna read it. You know? So say, what do you think? She goes, I think you should read it or she didn’t know anything about it. Right? Because the book only came out.
Victoria Volk: Read your story at the time?
D Paul Fleming: No. No. Nobody did. Oh, we did. So we were supposed to be down in Florida at a wrestling event for three of my kids who were in high school. But, you know, we had to put that off to the side and that left me with, you know, the two oldest and and my youngest who was probably, I don’t know, seven or eight. So I’m up there in Saint Joseph’s Church. I’ve got some great stories about Saint Joseph, by the way. It’s pretty cool place. Anyway, and I mean, I’m struggling. I’m struggling internally. I’m having a a a fist fight of how in god’s name can I be standing here doing this? Right? The other side of my brain is saying, you know, listen, just suck it up, get it done. Right? You know what? A veteran military approach. Right? Just get just get it over. Just get it done. Get it done. Get it done. Get it done. And then I got stock. Okay. And I mean stock. All of a sudden, I see my youngest kid hop out of the pew and comes bounding down the aisle, up onto the center stage of the church and grabs my hand and looks at me and goes, you got it. I was like, okay. Alright. So I I then understood the importance of doing things, especially things you don’t, you really don’t wanna do. I wasn’t there for him, and I certainly wasn’t there for me. I was there for what funerals are meant to be, for those who are living. Right? So, of course, I didn’t say any of the bad stuff. I just kinda, you know, fluttered in a few things that, you know, certain people would pick up on. Right? But others wouldn’t No. Let me dovetail that into another short quick story. Anybody that believes in the afterlife and paranormal, okay, if you’ve gone through any form of trauma, abuse or even a life and death situation. Okay? I always say you get a peek behind the veil. Okay? You get so close to Jesus when you’re in those moments that you can actually see on the other side of the veil. Okay? One of the things that used to drive crazy crazy was that I could see things that nobody else could. So I could see what was around him and the amount of darkness in our evil that was around him is staggering. Okay? So I would point things out as a as a gift. And it would make him go crazy. Okay? Or crazier. Right? So here I am sitting in this church knowing these things and knowing how evil he was. And it kinda hit me as my youngest son, Dakota, is holding my finger. Right? Just hold on. It was kinda got his head up against my thigh. And I’m saying, alright. So that’s the life he led Now I understand why he was so terrified to die because now judgment’s coming into play. Okay? And I survived all of that, and I spent my life helping people. Even even back as a kid, I’d I’d help people. Right? And it kinda dawned on me. It’s like, I just keep keep living as clean of life as you can. And again, I’m not a I’m no angel. Trust me on that. Right? But he was so terrified of dying that he did everything he could right to his last breath. And I’m sitting there saying, listen, man, but he’s a good day to die. Right? I’ve got no regrets. Right? I’ve done the best that I can. I’m happy to go see the baby Jesus. I’m sure I’ve got some things to answer for, I will, but nothing like he has to. Right? How’s that, grabbed you?
Victoria Volk: It’s a perspective, I think, that people don’t think about in peep you know, as far as, like, people in our lives, who maybe didn’t live the most loving of a life, who might be holding on and afraid like you said, it’s a different perspective. So thank you for sharing that.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. So all all our fellow vets out there, you know. Remember, I’m not advocating, you know, that today is a good day to die. What I am telling you is that if you’ve lived your life every day to the best of your ability, then and and don’t be afraid to die. Okay?
There’s good stuff on the other side. Okay? But that doesn’t give you permission or or my consent to commit suicide. It’s not happening. Okay? You do that and you you know, I don’t wanna I don’t wanna say it. I’m gonna say it this way, but it’s not really how I mean it. Okay? If you commit suicide, you give up all that good stuff that you did. Right? Suck it up, let’s keep moving forward. Okay? And, you know, when you whenever you do get into the the part about talking about suicide, listen, I I lived it. All the anxiety, all the pain. I I get it.
Okay? But you you you gotta you gotta look at everything you suffered through, everything you’re dealing with, and say, you can you can keep dealing with it one more day. And tomorrow is gonna be another day and it will get better. I guarantee it. It’s gotta get better. It’s gotta
Victoria Volk: You have to have hope.
D Paul Fleming: Faith. Right?
Victoria Volk: Faith. Yeah.
D Paul Fleming: Right? You gotta have faith. You gotta have faith in something. Okay? And What
Victoria Volk: what do you think kept you? Because you’re sitting here. Right? And you’re talking about suicide. I imagine you came close.
D Paul Fleming: Yes.
Victoria Volk: He attempted.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. As I write in my in my book, a David suicide, the first two paragraphs call it out. You know, I sat there with the opportunity and the means. Okay? Not just once.
Right? But why why didn’t I finish what I started?
Victoria Volk: Aldria.
D Paul Fleming: The first time? Mhmm. You know, I sat there? I would I would mid twenties. Mid twenties. But as I said, I was I was a keynote speaker in North Carolina American Legion Galla for suicide awareness. And Laurie Mhmm. Writes the who has the Christmas trees with suicide veterans photos on them coming in from all over the country. It’s a great she’s doing a great thing for all veterans. Anyway, I point out that everything I went through including the military. I never thought a suicide until I left the VA for the first time in my life. And when I walked out of the VA and that’s in one of these chapters in here. Okay? I remember saying, I’ll kill myself before I get caught in that nightmare in this mess. Okay? And it didn’t really dawn on me until I sat down and wrote the book a date with suicide, and I had I had the answer to my own question. When did I first when did I first say it? When did I first think about killing myself? And then I think about all the shit I did, you know, up until I was fourteen and how I survived all that? And then the military, right? I I never I never thought of killing myself until I got in the quagmire of the VA. So when I say the VA is PTSD, the VA is suicide, listen, I’m living proof. And I I can’t tell you how many veterans I talked to. Let’s say the exact same thing. Okay? The the backstop, the net, if you will, that’s supposed to be there for us. Just just simply isn’t. It just simply isn’t. So expectations of the VA are like therest of expectations in our lives. Right? Expectations, the mother of all let down. Right? So if you don’t have hope and purpose, if you don’t have faith, you what what what is your net? What’s the net that’s carrying it?
Victoria Volk: Can you share a little bit more about that just because I’m personally curious because on the flip side of that coin, I’ve had a really wonderful experience with the VA, so it was my husband. So it could be your location to be fair. And so what was it that there were just weren’t the services there? Or there was a delay? Or there wasn’t enough help?
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. So I’m gonna spin that around on you. The reality is there’s a handful of VAs that are doing well, and I mean a small handful. There’s a facility done in Fort Myers Florida that I’ve heard great things about, but it’s a small place. Okay? And for the most part, the VA system, if you can find a a a functioning group, inside that VA. So let’s just say you’re, you know, you’re having, you know, you just need check up. You just need basic healthcare. And you get into a VA that has a good doctor in there. Right? Most people have great experience from them. I’ve seen one or two vets that have said to me, you know, they treat me like a king in here. It’s great. And I hear him saying this as we’re walking out or others are walking out ready to kill themselves. Right? So I think it has a lot to do with, yeah, location. Okay? But what are the limits of the issues of the veterans who say, you know, they’ve they’ve had a good experience with VA? When I listened to the director of the American Legion say that he’s talking with veterans all over the country and he’s and he says, and he brags about this. The one thing I haven’t heard is anybody complain about the healthcare they get at the VA.
Okay? I mean, that draws me so far back that I I’ve I’ve I’ve I’ve stopped getting my bet on my Legion magazine because that is so misleading it’s sick. Right? When you sit here and you when you watch the hearing last week where the VA was called before Congress, then a Navy Seal congressman looks at these arrogant bastards and the VA rep says, well, in the last two years, statistically, veterans who call the nine eight eight number are ten times more likely to commit suicide within the next twelve months. Again, don’t believe me, just Google it. Okay? It’s an open hearing in Congress. Right? Then he has your audacity to say, but our numbers are thirty percent down on suicide. Again, that’s just a bold faced lie.
That’s just an absolute abstract lie. Okay? So folks that have a good experience in the VA, tend to have a primary doctor somewhere in there. That’s kind of overseeing what’s going on. Okay? But I guarantee you, you pull that doctor out, the whole thing collapses. It’s everyone I’ve talked to can relate to one person or one department, so to speak. Right? I personally have been in the system for about forty years. Right? Plus or minus? I have had somewhere north of thirty different primary doctors. Wow. Okay. Well, let me correct that.
Half of them are doctors. Right? They had one doctor who was his license was taken away. Okay? The best doctor that I had, flat out said to me, She says, I can’t take this anymore.
I’m leaving. The best mental health therapist that I had left. Right? So the inconsistency, the inability to have trust and confidence in the VA is a key factor. Now when you take someone like me, I’m already walking into a fight. Right? That’s just the way it’s been for me for over forty years. When you see somebody new coming off the street and they go to the VA, and they have an initial great experience. Okay? Well, what are the issues? What are you going to the VA for? Are you going to solve physical pain, mental pain, emotional pain, spiritual pain? What are you going to solve? The VA does some things very well, like, limbs. Right?
But what do they do for spinal cord injuries? They’re horrible unless you get into a couple of the niche places that have high end doctors that are affiliated with universities. In Connecticut, Yale University is affiliated with the VA. But if you read the history of the VA in Yale New Haven, in nineteen eighty six, they got caught by the OIG for injecting patients with experimental crap that was killing dozens and dozens of veterans. That’s widespread throughout the VA. Again, I’m gonna step down off my VA bashing box, if you will. And tell you when I first went to the VA was in Boston. Now I’ve been in VA’s up and down the East Coast. Right? I had to go to the seventh floor and the short version is when I got off the elevator and I write about extensively in the book, When I got off the elevator, the hallways were lined with veterans. There was feces and urine everywhere. It’s stumped to high hell. There were veterans of their arms out begging to help. Please help me. Help me.
Help me. Okay? I’m in my early twenties going, what the fuck did I just walk into? Right? I was discharged from Navy at the end of my four year active hitch to VA because I got hurt, physically got hurt. Okay. A couple of times. So I’m there for I don’t know why. My assumption was that to solve the problem of why am I in so much pain? What happened? Okay? Right. Next thing I know I’m in a closet with a mop and a bucket, and a guy in a white jacket who says he’s a doctor. Spend five minutes with him and he says, we’ll have a decision to you soon. That was it. That was my experience with the VA. It took all day I got there at seven o’clock in the morning and at three thirty in the afternoon. That’s when I saw the doctor. Okay? And I write about it extensively in the book. For the next ten years, that’s how the system operated. Okay? Until I got up until they finally medically retired me. Now, fast forward to twenty eighteen when they signed the Choice Act. Okay? And I went to private care after thirty years, forty years, I finally got answers by going to the Yukon Health getting into Yukon Health. Right? Not only did I get answers, they solved problems. They solved problems, the VA couldn’t even imagine. Okay? My shoulder, the last time I was at the VA was roughly two thousand ten for any form of treatment physical treatment. I was going in for a steroid injection. Right? Or I’m saying steroid. Right? I think it’s not steroid, but injection. Porges. Porges. Okay. So the lady pulls my shirt up. It’s a doctor. He pulls my shirt up, drabs the needle and squeezes. Okay? I start screaming. Again, I never go to VA without somebody, normally my wife. Okay? This thing hurt for weeks on end. Right? Now fast forward eight, nine years. When I went to private care, they say, yeah, you yeah. Cortisol injection would help. They pull out this paranoid. Right? They pull out all this hardware and they’re scoping it and everything else and they direct this needle into this spot and the pain of of the needle hurt. But once they took that out, the relief that I got in my shoulder was night and day. Right? So when you wanna talk about veterans who commit suicide or on that path, mental pain is one of the was one of the forefront reasons for suicide. Just can’t take it anymore. Physical pain we can deal with. But when you start adding or decreasing physical pain, it affects you mentally. Affect you emotionally, affect you spiritually. Right? So all of a sudden, I’m in private care and I’m starting to get answers. They solved the problem of my lower spine where the VA for, you know, the twenty, thirty years said there’s nothing wrong with you. Okay? Well, it turns out there’s a little bone chip in there that there was something wrong with me and it’s gotten my fecal sac. Okay? Now next thirty years in the VA, two appointments at private care and we solved the problem. Okay? And I can run down the list of things that private care took of took care of that VA said, either I was crazy, it doesn’t exist, or they had no logic for it. And I’ve got all of my every record ever. I’ve got my MRIs. I’ve got my x rays. All my medical record. Okay? Anyway, when you look at the VA and people like me who are struggling to figure out what’s wrong with me and the VA doesn’t give you answers. Okay? What’s left? So aside?
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I can totally understand that. Totally see that. And the Choice Act was probably the best thing they’ve ever done just to handle the influx of the veterans that are needing care that aren’t getting it. And so even for my husband and I, like that was a huge positive for us as well, I can say from my standpoint of I facilitate a program called the grief recovery method, And I tried for the first two years when I got certified in early twenty nineteen and I attended a mental health summit for veterans that was put on by the VA. And topic of suicide. And never once was the I mean, they had social it was a roomful of social workers, psychologists, therapists, whatever. Not once did they use the word grief, not at once. They didn’t even mention trauma, not once. So afterwards, I go up to this psychologist and I talk to her a little bit and I share with her what I’ve been trying to do because I had meetings with local VA, I had meetings with our seabock, yeah, the seabock, the local VA, and then also the veterans, which is it called, I can’t like, it escapes my brain right now, but they facilitate services for in the community. It’s outside of the VA, but it’s affiliated with the VA, of course. Of course, ran by social workers and things. Talk to them about the program because the grief recovery institute has been trying to get this program onto military one source for years. It changes lives. So that hasn’t been happening. So what they’ve been doing is the institute has been training chaplains and social workers within the system and anybody who’s willing to get certified with who are already in the system. But it’s like for the military to say that this is an approved service has been so much bureaucratic red tape I gave up after two years. I was just like, I wasn’t getting anywhere. Doors slammed on my face, but we already have our thing. We already do a certain thing. They didn’t wanna hear it. And it’s like, I’m telling you, as a veteran myself, this changed my life. It’s changing people’s lives. They didn’t wanna hear it.
D Paul Fleming: So in that group of college boys, as I as I love to call them, how many of them talked about the with with the topic of suicide, how many talk to about mental pain?
Victoria Volk: All of them. I mean, there were people that share there were soldiers that shared their stories.
D Paul Fleming: Okay. How many talk about emotional pain?
Victoria Volk: All of them.
D Paul Fleming: How many talk about spiritual pain?
Victoria Volk: I think one guy even, to your point, like, he was home ended up homeless for a time. And, of course, that would he didn’t say the word spiritual, that his spirituality suffered, but that’s what happens. That even happens just with anybody in grief often. You know, we we struggle with, like, answering those questions, like, why me? And God did this to me? And of course, that’s gonna translate into having someone to blame. Right? And so who do you blame? You blame God? I did. I had my own traumas and stuff in childhood. I mean, that’s what happens. So yeah,
D Paul Fleming: I So how many of the VA employees? K? Talk about the four corners of what leads to suicide. Physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional pain or trauma.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. That’s what I’m saying. That’s like they didn’t they didn’t I mean, granted this was maybe they do now, but at their summits or whatever, but this was six years ago, five years ago?
D Paul Fleming: Nope. When this when I when this came out, I I was shocked at the number of professionals that responded and posted reviews. One lady said she was a VA trauma nurse for thirty years, going in the mental health industry. I think she was in Coatesville. Right? Pennsylvania. She said she wrote a review saying after thirty years of dealing with this, you’re the first veteran who actually told the story. She’s been trying to get veterans to tell their story what happened to them for thirty years, and nobody would. Right? Now, I know the reason why. Reason is nobody trusts the VA, so you’re not gonna tell them stuff. When you wanna talk about suicide and the VA solving the problem, listen, oil and water. It’s not happening. Okay? First and foremost, because what they do is, like you said, they surround themselves with social workers and how many of those people are veterans?
Victoria Volk: Yep. And they’re misinformed about grief, which is why I started this podcast.
D Paul Fleming: Okay. How many how many of those people had that and that seminars that with the college degrees and the social working experiences? How many of them are veterans?
Victoria Volk: I don’t I couldn’t tell you, but I’m pretty sure probably very few.
D Paul Fleming: I agree. Coming out of world war two, what did they say at the VA? World war two veterans forced the VA employees to be world war two veterans. Period. Period.
So you had world war two veterans dealing with and relating to one or two veterans. Right? The shift came when the when the VA started unionizing, okay, and putting all these requirements out of what you have to be to work at the VA. Okay? That happened in what?
Fifties and sixties. Right? And then Vietnam. So you go to Vietnam and you watch the number of veterans drop from work at VA to this day. You’ll have people that say, I’m a veteran and you ask them, well, what did you do? Unfortunately, far too many of them are already in the VA type system somewhere in the military. Okay? Very few of them are SandBox vets. Right? Very few of them are submarine vets. Very few of them are aircraft carrier vets. So how is a veteran who’s dealing with physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional pain supposed to be able to communicate, trust, and relate to somebody who’s never been there? This is why the veteran community, things like you’re doing, are so highly successful because people like me are willing to open up with people like you. I’ve talked to my wife for fifty years about my childhood.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. The the grief recovery method was actually founded by Vietnam veteran. It’s near and dear to my heart, but Did
D Paul Fleming: you get all your answers from my childhood? Did you wanna kinda go back there? I’m happy I’m happy to talk about it.
Victoria Volk: No. I think it shapes who you become. It shapes who you are, of course. And I guess well, let’s go from you deciding and choosing the military and particularly the navy.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. I as long as I can remember, I knew I was going in the military. Right?
Victoria Volk: As an escape? Because many people choose it as an escape.
D Paul Fleming: No. No. No. I you know how you just know certain things? K?
I I just knew, but I knew it. I knew it from a very young age. And then, of course, you know, between fourteen and seventeen, you know, I’m working full time. I’m trying to get through high school. So on and so on. And I wasn’t always a I wasn’t always a good kid. Right? So the the final straw was was in front of a gentleman who had a very, you know, well done tie and black robe and he sat up on a bench elevated above the rest of us, you know. Until till the to my left was a a really pissed off guy in another suit and was telling a judge what he thought. Right? So the judge wanted to see my enlistment papers, you know, I wanted to go into marines I was seventeen, so I needed a parent to sign for me. So I had to go see my mother. Right? So she wouldn’t sign for the Marines, but she agreed to sign for the Navy because her father was in the Navy. So that’s kinda that’s kinda how I ended up in the military, but it goes back to the fact that I I always knew. I knew I knew my path from as far back as I can remember was was was gonna be going through the military.
Victoria Volk: What did you do after I mean, so while you were in service and training and things like that, did it bring up anything from your past?
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. So you never you never you never you never far from it. Yeah. Right? I mean, it’s always right next to you, right behind you. You know, it’s a wet blanket that’ll snuggle up to you for far too many times and you can’t remember. Right? You just you you can’t shake it. You can you can get past things. You can you can accept things and you can they can stop bothering you for the most part. But they’re they’re always right there. But one of the things that it did for me was it taught me that you you you have to kill me to beat me because I won’t quit. I just won’t quit. Right? You know, when that, you know, all growing up in a nasty, abusive childhood, you know, you either quit or take the beatings or you never quit and take the beatings. Right? I I never quit. I never backed down. I never bent the knee. Every time you knock me down, I stood back up. Well, not every time it was times they took me out in ambulance. But, you know, so my focus in the military was Listen, you I don’t care how bad you this is gonna get. I ain’t quitting. And then, ironically, when I went to boot camp, I was bored. It was the worst thing that happened was you gotta yell at? You know? I mean, like, I was like, jeez. This is it. This is boot camp.
Victoria Volk: You became
D Paul Fleming: you know, you didn’t cuss that. Oh my god. Perming. But when I wrote the book, a date with suicide, and I draw on my transition, like you said, from seventeen to like, going to boot camp, if you will. Well, halfway through boot camp, it it had pointed me massive arms. I wasn’t charged everybody inside the barracks. So remember, you’re getting no sleep. Right? Boom camp is boom camp. K? So you have cherish your four hours of sleep. Anyway, two o’clock in the morning, I get shaken out of my rack, my roving watch. He goes guys killing himself. Jesus. So I go see this kid, tough kid from the Bronx. Right? Sitting there, blood everywhere. You had busted open his back, taken the razor and slashing his wrists and everything else. That was blood everywhere. And I remember saying, you have to be effing kidding me. I’m gonna lose sleep because you wanna kill yourself to get out of boot camp Okay? No empathy. No sympathy. I was pissed. And I it didn’t dawn on me until I sat down and wrote the book a date with suicide. That even though the trauma of being yelled at him, bootcamp meant nothing to me. You know, it was it was a joke. It was so so so traumatic for this kid that he had to go the path of getting out of the military by attempted suicide. Right. Did you
Victoria Volk: know his story though, his background and his childhood?
D Paul Fleming: You know, again, you know, seventeen, eight year old kids, eighty of them in a barracks. Right? You tend to get to know each other, but Right? How how well do you get to know him? So no. I mean, he was a a kid from the Bronx. K? Yeah. He wasn’t he wasn’t a squid is a a skittish kid. He was a tough kid. He was a tough kid. Right? But when I when I wrote it in the story, it made me lean back and realize, and it kind of solidified this statement for me. You can never judge somebody else’s trauma because what doesn’t seem traumatic So you or me could be devastating to somebody else. So you you can’t judge their trauma. Only the person dealing with trauma can judge their trauma. I don’t care if you’re I don’t care if you have ten college degrees. You can’t judge somebody else’s trauma. That trauma is so connected to the four corners of our existence, our physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional bodies. That when a trauma happens and we think it’s physical. Right? You get shot. You get you you fall out of a helicopter. You get run over by a submarine. Right?
Whatever it is. That’s physical. But so few of us realize how spiritual, emotional, and mental physical trauma really is. Now take any one of those four parts and just keep mixing them. Think about it. When when you’re in your when you’re young in the love, right, a puppy love, your first love ever. And then she breaks up with you and your heart breaks. Which is it? Is it physical pain or is it emotional pain? Well, it’s kind of both, isn’t it? Because it does physically hurt. So just a girlfriend breaking up with you can send you into a traumatic fit that stays with you the rest of your life because every one of us can think back and say, I remember my first love. Right? But over time, the pain of that breakup kind of fades. You don’t remember why? Okay. So the physical part kind of takes care of itself all by itself, but the emotional part stays there and you never heal it. So one thing the VA one thing the VA or the military never introduced, keeling. Right? Until I sat down and started writing these books and and got very deep deep into my own personal on voyage on faith. Right? I didn’t think about healing because I thought it was poo poo. Right? What is this healing crap? Is this? Wait. Where are you supposed to heal from? How does this work? And then the more I studied, the more I dug in the years and years of research and practice. And I realized how critical healing is. But again, you know, you take the psychologists. They wanna focus on what? Why we’ve gotta deal with the mental? What about the physical or the spiritual? So if you’re not dealing with all four, you’re not solving the problem of what? Grief. Because grief encapsulates the four elements of who we are, period, full stop. In order to solve Grief, you have to address the four corners of your existence.
Victoria Volk: And you have to look at the past and address
D Paul Fleming: the
Victoria Volk: past as people will say, I don’t have to look at the past. The past is in the past. It’s under the rug. I don’t wanna look at it. I don’t need to look at it. I can’t change it. It is what it is. That’s what a lot of
D Paul Fleming: people. Tell me why.
Victoria Volk: Why did they do that?
D Paul Fleming: Why do we need to look at the past?
Victoria Volk: Our past is what informs every decision and where we are in the present. And it will influence our future unless we bring it to our awareness and look at it.
D Paul Fleming: That’s probably the best answer I’ve ever heard.
Victoria Volk: Good.
D Paul Fleming: I really hope you cut that clip out of this of this video and you replay that on in on whatever meetings you’ve got. Nonstop. That is the best description I’ve ever heard. Okay? Only follow-up with it.
Victoria Volk: I also can I just add to that know we’ve talked a lot about physical abuse and and a lot about physical abuse because that’s your story? But I just want listeners to be also consider and veterans listening to this also consider that neglect in a home, this indifference of you existing, a veteran that doesn’t even feel like they exist, that don’t feel love or experience love, know what love is. Right? And that’s true for maybe a child too that is being physically abused, but neglect is also trauma. So I just want to clarify that too. Howard Bauchner:
D Paul Fleming: I absolutely agree with you. The the the two keys to neglect abandonment. Mhmm. When you’re neglected, you are left feeling abandoned. K? And anybody that’s dealing with childhoods like mine or older in life and you’re in an abusive relationship. You feel abandoned. So when you go looking for help, right, the cops maybe, and they don’t do anything, you’re not only neglected. You’re abandoned. And then you go to the VA who you have a contract with that swears on the Bible that they’re going to take care of you, And then they do the same things that you do that did they did to you when you were a child. Mhmm. Right? K? You’re you’re not only neglected, but you’re abandoned. And once that car is its path deep enough into your spiritual emotional and yes physical bodies. It is next to impossible to get it back out. So I agree with you. You have to go into your past. And tell your story. Okay? It is next to impossible to kill yourself while you’re telling your story to a veteran who needs to hear your story.
Victoria Volk: Several years ago, there was this art exhibit that was kind of being trans like shared amongst seabox around the country. It was like a traveling museum of sorts or exhibit, art exhibit. And what it was, was veterans who the project was to paint a mask. They take the make a plaster of their face, and they paint the mask that they’ve been wearing. It’s like take what you feel in this mask that you wear and paint it onto this canvas, this plaster of your face. And little snippets of their story were included with those masks and I was standing there reading it and just like sobbing. There were so many masks and so many stories. And it’s just a just a it’s just a little small handful but it was a way for them to share their story. And so I just want listeners to know, veterans listening that it doesn’t have to be a written story. It could be some sort of art project or you talk about your native American heritage. I imagine that there are so many different outlets of creativity that you could probably create a group of veterans that you know to come in and and share their story in that sort of fashion and a creative and arts sort of fashion. Just ideas that are just flowing through me, I just wanted to share. But it doesn’t have to be a written story is kind of why I’m sharing that.
D Paul Fleming: Telling your story is the key behind it. The mask is the same thing. You’re telling your story by taking that mask and putting it down and saying that’s my story. For me, it’s helped in a in a in one way I do something similar is, look, we have a fire. Okay?
We take all of that crap or just one piece of it. Write it on a chunk of cedar. Write it on a piece of paper and burn it. Okay? Now it’s two parts that some people look at that and go, well, you’re just kinda burning the piece of paper. My belief is that you’re burning that piece which used to reside in you and and control you. And you’ve taken that piece out and you sent it and you’ve purified it. So it is it is no longer.
Victoria Volk: Words of energy?
D Paul Fleming: Right.
Victoria Volk: Words are energy, and so I’m glad we’re getting into this healing piece because I would love to hear more about that. As far as what your healing did look like. And one of the things too is I’ve had people on this podcast before talking about their suicide attempts and experience with suicide. And one of the things that I’ve learned is that connection is the antidote to suicide. And so what in what ways did you find connection healing for you? And what did your healing look like?
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. So my healing is a, you know, ten, twenty year process right now. K. But my focus is on my time with my wife. And spirit. Those are the two things that I love being around. My wife’s my best friend, absolutely adore. In every chance I get, I tell the world she’s an absolute saint. Okay? Not because she’s walking around with, you know, a couple of wings on her back. But to me, she is the same. The caretakers that provide for people like me are not just the salt of the earth, but god coded those folks with a piece of his own soul because that’s what it takes to deal with folks like me. And there’s far too many of us out there. Okay? The greatest people out there are the caretakers that take care of veterans. The wives, the spouses. K? The siblings. That said, my path had to come back to finding I I live in two worlds. I live in my Native American world. My wife’s Irish, Catholic, and I have a deep faith in the baby Jesus. Okay? So I I kinda step in I play in both of those worlds. Reconnecting with both pieces of that have brought my soul back to life. Learning how to clear, learning how to get rid of the dark energy that’s in me, around me, near me, trying to creep up on me. Right? And facing things that some people will look at and go, man, that’s witchcraft and crazy. Like, well, we’ll see. So once I learned and accepted things like meditation, because I swore from here to hell, there’s no way I’m gonna meditate. Okay? Listen, I meditate almost every single day. In one form or another, whether it’s a five minute break or whether it’s an hour long, kumbaya leave me the hell alone moment. But the the journey of picking up those pieces that fit me, not everybody else. That fit me. I don’t tell people to meditate. I encourage them to take a look at quieting your mind. Because once you can quiet your mind, the physical, the spiritual, and the emotional bodies follow. But your mind, like a computer, needs to reboot. And the only way to do that when you’re dealing with anxiety, when you’re dealing with racing thoughts when you can’t get a grip on yourselves and you can’t slow down, you have to figure out a way to turn your brain off. For me, the first time I said, I gotta I gotta do something in that voice. Said, fine. I put my head back in my chair, turned on some native American drumming, and I said, alright. What the hell am I supposed to do now? Breathe in through my nose and out through my mouth and concentrate on my breathing. That’s it. Just concentrate on my this is stupid. Right? So after the mental argument for a couple of minutes and then all of a sudden, I’ve realized I’m someplace else. And then as I started thinking again, I said, oh my god. It’s quiet in here. And then boom. Right back into my world. But for that briefest moment, I was at peace. And I said, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Wait a minute. That Bob wired barley nastiness that was flown around in my gut that college boys call anxiety, the one that runs up to your throat and down to your bowels, it just rips you to shreds. It was gone. Gone. I was only gone for five or ten seconds, but it was enough to make a believer out of me. So when did I start healing? Listen, I think all of these pieces are healing. Right? For me, I was waiting for this. Let’s pour the gravy on this and that’s healing. The gravy’s a healing. Right? Do some work, gravy it up. We’re good to go. No. It’s little pieces of all of it. That that first time that five minute. Because the next time I did it nothing. Nothing. Nothing. I couldn’t quiet my mind and say my life. But then the next time after that. Okay? And then I was hooked. Because when you live with anxiety and I mean brutal anxiety, and for the darkness moment it’s gone. It’s a whole another world. Then it dawned on me. Wait a minute. That’s what it feels like when I have my second beer. That’s why I sucked down two beers as fast as I can for however many decades I drank. I I quit drinking already. And I mean, I got them quite. I just said enough for the drinking and stop drinking. Right? But, right, you know, beforehand, and it but then it clicked on me that, why did I drink? I drank to get rid of the anxiety, self medicating. Right? But it was those aha moments of doing one, of telling my story. Now again, this is one version of tell your story. The other version of me telling my story is me having that conversation with myself. What happened? And then before I released this book or before I wrote the the first book, I went and saw my sister. And I said, listen, tell me if I’m crazy. Did I really get beaten like this? And man, her tears just started flowing? Okay? She’s like, I don’t know how many times you he was gonna kill you. I swore you were dead four, five times. Okay? We couldn’t wake you up. We couldn’t get you back. Okay? So she gave me confirmation. That I wasn’t crazy in imagining these things. And I fear that that’s what far too many of us veterans do. You know, we go through boot camp, we go through the military world and what warriors? What warriors? Right? Well, one percent we’ve been taught trained and rough backed through. Suck it up. Get that thought out of your mind. Right? Don’t be a coward. Right? So I’m thinking how much of this crap am I making up and how much of it’s real. And then I can’t talk about But getting confirmation from my sister was another piece of healing because when she said it to this day, I can feel the whole shift inside of me drop down one notch. It was like, see, it did happen. You did survive that. You are a good person. It’s like, well, how did that would come from? All of a sudden, good comments start filtering in once you start healing. So for me, when people ask me about how’s the healing? You know, many of us look at things linear. Right? Listen, it’s pop marked with little pieces everywhere that say, this was a good piece to add to that healing process. Okay? Mine’s ongoing. I’ve got a ton of healing to do. I I work on it. You know, I I love I love to say daily daily, but, you know, I I would I would say I I don’t. Right? I definitely work on it. Not too many days ago, I’m not aggressively working on my path forward.
Victoria Volk: And that’s what it takes. It’s and it’s being open to receiving these intuitive messages like editing, you know, and following those bread crumbs and having the courage to follow that wherever it takes you. What are some other practices that you have incorporated other than meditation that have served you well?
D Paul Fleming: Well, one of the biggest things that know, I’m trying to promote especially to my fellow veterans and their, you know, their family, spouse isn’t solid. You gotta learn to clear yourself. Right? What does that mean? Do what what does it mean to you to when I say clear yourself?
Victoria Volk: You know, I’ve had I’ve been having this conversation lately with people that because, of course, when you’re in relationship with people, there’s conflict bound to be conflict at some point. Right? And what I have noticed in how I know that I am have done a lot of work on myself is when someone can say something and I feel something I feel certain way about it. I feel activated by it. I won’t say triggered because that’s I mean, you can be activated or triggered, but when I’m feeling activated by something, I can step back and be like, okay, why is this why is the why is why am I feeling this way about this? And, you know, and I can also hear things and it go in one year and out the other and not stick to me because I have done my I’ve swept my own doorstep. That’s how I know that I’ve come a long way because I used to take things so personally. I used to think there was something wrong with me and, you know, it’s been a really long journey. It’s been a ten year journey for me in my healing. And so I wanna hear what you were going to say. So
D Paul Fleming: earlier you had mentioned energy. Right? Mhmm. Energy is everywhere.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
D Paul Fleming: And as scientists have proven, right, the good side of college boys, I imagine. Right? Energy never never disappears. It just changes its form. Mhmm. Okay? So where does all that anger go? That we veterans have, goes out into the universe, or does it stick to us, or does it do both? So I’m sitting there watching my wife going up and down the aisle every Sunday to get the communion. Right? I’m like, you know, why did they do this? Why? The body of Christ? The blood of Christ. What are they doing? Again, I’m kinda condensing a lot until a very short and I’m looking at my Native American is not on. And I’m starting as never before. And when warriors would come back from a battle, shaman, the medicine man, the holy man, would hold him outside the village, and he would sage him, sweet grass, cedar, tobacco, he would clear them. Why? Because he wanted to get all the dark energy off and out of them so they didn’t infect the village. I’ll infect the village by a little strong word. Right? Okay? So I’m I’m studying this and I’m saying, okay. So for me, I started saying, where’s all this dark energy going? Where’s all this darkness? Right? Every time we get mad, you can feel it, and it takes so much work to release it. To clear yourself. So I found myself after walking this path doing exactly what you did, where I used to get mad when somebody would say something, it’s starting to go out one. Okay? And it doesn’t register. Unless I’m starting to get backed up. I’m starting to get blocked. I’m starting to have too much of other people’s energy around me. Okay? So again, I had to learn What is it to clear? What what am I doing? We need to get the darkness out of us. Okay? Again, physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional. If we’re physically in pain, is it radiating energy? Of course it is. So is our spirit? So is all the energy around us? And when somebody comes at you with eight or you for me walking into the VA, that place is just vile. You’re picking up and absorbing all of that energy. So what I did was I I focused heavily on the Catholic. I focused heavily on my Native American and I watched. And I studied what the community is. Well, the greatest way to to to draw that piece together is with father Amos. He died a little while ago. He was the he was the Vatican’s chief exercise. Okay? And he wrote, I’ve read almost every one of his books. Great, phenomenal guy. He wrote that I do hundreds of exercises every single day. And I’m like, what the fuck is this? I’m thinking peace soup and all that. Right? He goes, no. These people come and they line up at my door so they can get the body of Christ so that they can get the blood of Christ. So that he can put their hand on him and invoke God’s will and light to come through them and to clear all that doesn’t belong inside of you, to clear the darkness. And people wind up every day to go do this. They go every Sunday and what are they doing? They’re renewing their connection to what they believe in in the Catholics, the baby Jesus, the light of Christ, and so on. Native Americans. Same thing, different approach. You watch the Catholics use a wafer or a jug of oil or a jug of wine. Right? Oil. Right? For baptism. Right? Merriages. Right? And this smoke for burials. Right? What do Native Americans do? Sage, cedar, sweet grass, and tobacco. Now listen, if you mix all four, you’re neutralizing all the darkness around you and all the darkness in you by doing the same things the Catholics do. Getting exercised or cleared.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
D Paul Fleming: Once I started going down his path, I could start feeling the darkness other people’s anger coming at me. Okay? So I said, how do I how do I protect against this? So I learned how to protect against this. And then I went from being, you know, on the wrong side of things to being on the positive side of things. Right? Now I’m doing it daily daily. Okay? Claireing people, Claireing houses, getting rid of darkness. I’m doing this often.
Okay? So when I say when you asked what, you know, kind of, what do I do? So that’s why I I love being around my wife and I love doing spiritual work. Okay. To me, this this is all part of his spirit to work. How how do you like that one for an answer?
Victoria Volk: No. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. I actually am Catholic and to hear you share your perspective of that, and I wasn’t always. I’m a convert. So to hear your perspective. And and to be fair, I mean, that was a huge part of my healing as well was finding something I believed in again to find my faith, which, you know, thanks to my husband at the time. But It wasn’t pressured on me. It wasn’t forced on me. I had to come to that myself. And I think we naturally do when we start to open ourselves up to more, that more is possible. And I think when we’re talking about suicide, I mean, I’m I’m imagine you would agree is that you don’t feel like that more is possible, like more goodness. Like goodness is possible.
D Paul Fleming: Yeah. You’ve you’ve given up on all of it. You’ve absolutely given up. There is no more. Okay? The reason I wrote the reason the title is a date with suicide is what I’ve what I learned from talking to many veterans was that, you know, we’re so anal that we’d line everything else up. K? And then the last thing we do is set a date. Now, veterans that have attempted suicide almost to a man or a woman tell me the same thing. Okay? Few with few exceptions. Someone will say, well, I thought of a date, but I need to put everything in line before I set the date. So we’ve got to get the veterans before they set that date. Because once they set that date, the the the week after my last book came out of date with suicide, a guy who served with forty years ago committed suicide. For me. K? I couldn’t believe it. Guys, served with a reaches out and says, I’m reading your book and I’m playing back, you know. Just buried blah blah, who committed suicide. I’m like, okay. Statistically, if you look at what the VA says, whether it’s seventeen or twenty two, it’s a it is a miscarriage of fact to be to be a nice k? The VA take is aware of about twenty percent of the veterans, but they’ll claim they claim they’re engaged with thirty five percent of veterans. So let’s use their number thirty five percent. In two thousand fourteen through two thousand eighteen, the VA redid a study and came back in eighteen and said we’ve decreased the number to seventeen veterans suicide a day, and they were all proud of themselves. Right? Okay. Operation deep dive picked up from there. And for the last seven or eight years through a couple of different universities, including Duke University now. They they focused on eight states and it’s now going national. It’s called Operation DeepDive. If you if you guys are all familiar with Navy Carmen, Christine Walker, she’s the chief editor of Eddie’s Magazine, Jones it. She puts an article for Operation DeepDive in her magazine every time every quarter comes out. Okay? Operation DeepDive is a great piece of literature to read and and look at the research. And it’s two page conclusion, it says that the VA used bogus numbers to come up with their seventeen per day. But even based on their seventeen per day, the reality is it’s two point four times higher than the suicide rate, which puts it in the forties. So their position is it’s in the forties. My position is if it’s seventeen a day and you’re only seeing a third of the veterans, why can’t we just do the math and say, well, that’s fifty plus. So that’s kind of the conclusion of where I come from fifty veterans a day or committing suicide. I believe the reality is so much more than that. Okay? Because so many of our veterans, especially our young veterans, I’ve and I’ve handheld quite a few of them to try to get them into the system and it’s a it’s a nightmare. How many or more are we losing when they bang on the front door or the VA? They need mental help. Right? And they get turned away. Alvea will say they don’t turn you away. That’s bullshit. Okay? If you don’t have a rating, the only thing you can do is walk into the day clinic and sit there for as long as it takes in that spot until somebody can see you, if they can see you. In the last in the hearing last week, I watched this guy say that, well, we’re only having two veterans commit suicide on our property. And the congressman retired Navy Seal, lost it. And he says, that’s bullshit. There’s twenty different facilities that have reported at least two, so that’s forty. And his response was while most of those are off VA grounds. Okay? Well, why? Because a lot of VAs have certain places, and then the parking lots are on private land or state owned land. Okay? Gotta won’t jump back on that soapbox. Okay. But, anyway, I kinda lost where we were going with this, so they kinda widened that topic up. Sorry.
Victoria Volk: No. I’m glad we brought it back to the suicide topic. And thank you for mentioning Operation Deep Dive. I I I wasn’t in my awareness. Before Yeah.
D Paul Fleming: Do you wanna give a read to that?
Victoria Volk: In your life experience, the grief trauma, what what has grief taught you? And what is the message that you would like to share with veterans listening to this, who may be struggling today?
D Paul Fleming: The second part is easy. The first part is difficult to answer. It’s not difficult to answer because I’m reluctant. It’s difficult to answer because I’m a I’m a very odd duck. Alright? I have a I have a deep faith in the baby jeans, and I have a deep faith in my native americanism, but I also believe in reincarnation. I believe in we’re here for a reason. Okay. My first suicide was Randy Smith. Can a guy I served with? That’s starting right in the book. Right? That’s why I kinda coined the phrase, who’s your Randy? Meaning, who’s your first suicide? So for me, I look back at this now that I’ve, you know, kind of spent over a decade digging into and learning about my spiritual faith, I see all of this happening so that I can write the book. I see everything that I went through so that I would I would grow my soul and be able to relate to people more have empathy for, to learn something that I never thought I would even have the conversation with, like, you can never judge somebody else’s trauma. I never would have drawn that conclusion and I not gone through boot camp, dealt with what I dealt with, and then sat down and wrote wrote the book. Right? So I have a I view this from a a very limited way where most people don’t. K? For my fellow veterans. Listen, there’s so much more that we’re supposed to do. So I’m gonna guelter here a little bit and tell you that the civilian suicide rate is exploding. And I’m gonna tell you that we all know that what we do as veterans, civilians follow. So a little bit of a guilt trip here, we’ve got to stop killing ourselves to save civilians lives. Because they’re looking at us saying, well, if they can’t deal with it, then it’s then it’s easy for them to say, I can kill myself. Right? I personally think the civilian suicide rate is north of a couple hundred a day, and I think it’s exploding. Anyway, tell your story. If you’re not familiar with Don are you familiar with Donald Dunn out of Missouri? Mhmm. He wrote a book that is this thick. Okay? I mean, it’s it’s literally that thick. Okay? Donald Dunn. Phenomenal book. Right? I usually have it with me to show on these podcast. Alright? He tells it I I swear if it I think he wrote this with a crayon, and then somebody typed it Okay? It is that down home. It is straight to the point and it tells all the same stories I tell except I spent forever writing it in long form long form. Okay But he really comes out and lays it out of how close he came to suicide. And to a man when people have come to me and said, okay, your book stopped me from committing suicide. My next question is, why? And they said, I read in there things that I didn’t know I didn’t have. One, a purpose. Two, I didn’t know other veterans were dealing with transitioning out of the military like I was. Okay? I was shocked that people are shocked that veterans saying, how many of us realize that we were abandoned when we’d left the military again. It it the system is what it is, but that feeling of abandonment jumps right back at us when the gate hits us in the backside, especially if you’ve gone through childhood trauma. If not, then it’s your first real feeling of abandonment, and it’s hard to refine yourself. So you’ve gotta find yourself and find a purpose. Well, what is your purpose right now? Well, I’m giving you one. Tell your story. So if you don’t think you have a purpose, reach out to me. And I’m gonna help you understand that you have a purpose. If you tell your story one time, you have no idea the pebble and the pond effect that can have in helping others. But to bring it back to Don Don’s book, he didn’t tell his wife anything about what was going on. Wait a minute. Didn’t I already say this? No. That was me. I said I didn’t tell my wife for fifty years. Until I handed to the book. Well, Don Don didn’t tell his family anything until they read the book. Are we seeing a trend line here? K. So we’re keeping all of this inside of us. Because we think we’re helping our friends, our family, our loved ones by not burning burning them with our story. Well, listen, I’m telling you. Your loved ones need to hear your story. We all need to hear your story. The more of us that come forward and tell the story, the easier it’s gonna be for the rest of us to keep telling our story and to help others take a step up and tell their story. You gotta tell your story. Read other people’s story and just sit down and write it. You don’t have to print it. You don’t have to you just just write it right up on all the longest email to yourself you’ve ever done. And then burn it. Tell your story.
Victoria Volk: It’s good advice. Thank you for sharing all of that. There’s one thing I wanna say and it’s about the word committed you know, when we say this person committed suicide. The Great Recovery Institute helped me reframe that and shared a different perspective of that word because when we say committed, you know, when it’s like someone committing murder, that’s a crime. So when we say committed, it’s like they’re committing a crime. So the grief recovery institute actually has helped me realize the importance of words. And so instead, I say completed suicide or died by suicide because it takes off that it feeling like a crime. Because there’s a lot of shame in that that families feel, the people that are left behind. Right? You know?
D Paul Fleming: Yes. I do. I do. I’m in a fist fight, if you will, over getting people to stop hiding suicide. Mhmm. K? It’s like, listen. K? Get them. It’s gonna take me a while to not say committed, but okay. Your loved one killed himself. K? If you think that reflects on you, then you’re not helping the rest of us.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
D Paul Fleming: Because the it seems to me like the last taboo subject in this world is suicide. Everything else we can talk about. Right? Well well, why? Why? Why is it? Why is it so taboo? Well, the Bible frowns on suicide. Right? Says you commit suicide, you’re it’s a mortal sin. You’re going to hell forever. Do I buy that? Nope. Not at all. K? Do I tell people that they should buy it? Listen. You gotta figure out your own path. K? It’s not my place to tell you what to think or to believe. You figure that out. Right? To me, it isn’t. I’ve had to forgive everyone that I know that’s committed suicide because it’s not mine to keep. It’s not mine to take. And more importantly, I survived the physical, mental, spiritual, and emotional pain that brought me to that point. The pain is so overwhelming. How can anybody that loves a person want them to continue to live with that kind of pain? A razor blade tumbling constantly in your gut, your mind refusing to shut off, your body and so much physical pain, you can’t take it. There’s no end. And you’ve lost your faith so your entire existence getting absorbed by darkness, evil thoughts. How can you hold it against somebody? I just can’t take it anymore. I can’t. I’m not advocating for suicide. I’m advocating for those of us who have survived. And those of us who have to live, you know, with the memory of those who killed themselves. Right? You gotta think along these lines. When the pain got so severe, it took its toll. Okay? Few people talk about what it took to get to that point of suicide. And I’m here to say, telling you, look at it. And and again, like the mental health professionals that are reading my book are saying, They’ve never I’ve never heard any of them approach it from the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual standpoint of you have to attack all four. At the same time, pick one and get moving and the rest will follow. Then you need to learn to keep the faith and keep moving forward. So at the end, a veteran is still a veteran. Suck it up, find a path forward. We can do this. Reach out. We’re all here. We’re all suffering the same crap. Different levels You’re no different than us. You’re not alone. We get it. Your stories are no worse than everybody else’s. It’s no better than everybody else’s. We’re all the same. We’re one percent. We’re veterans. We got issues. We got stories. And we need to be telling them to ourselves. And the last thing I was saying, any veteran out there that maligns another veteran? You know, like saying something like, well, what makes you think you’re a veteran? You weren’t in combat? Right? Like, why would you say that? Or well, I did all these things and you didn’t. You know, why would you say that? Why would you say that? I went to boot camp with a kid who tried to kill himself because he couldn’t take the yelling. When I was in a school, I watched the e two shaking like a leaf because he had two captains and an admiral around him. Kid couldn’t function. And that’s when I swore I don’t ever be in one of these scenarios. I wonder what happened to that kid. All I know is he was so terrified around two captains at an admiral, he couldn’t function. Another kid would chain smoke outside like there was no tomorrow. Why? And he was never in combat, but something happened to him because he signed the line join the military, successfully move through boot camps, successfully move through the next things, and something snapped. Something happened. Combination of life, girlfriend leaving them, wife, kids, what? Don’t know. It’s not our story to tell. But don’t judge somebody else’s trauma and don’t harm another veteran by, you know, downplaying what they did. I’ll close that little soapbox with this. One guy I talked to, never left the United States. In fact, went to Maryland, spent eight years there. At the eight year point, the end of his enlistment, he was doing one of two things. He was getting out and or killing himself.
I couldn’t decide which one was gonna be first. He didn’t kill himself, but it was close. When I asked him, what what what’s your story? What because I couldn’t take it anymore. What? His job was to be in perfect uniform and carry fellow dead soldiers off of the planes flying into Maryland or Delaware. Right? Andrews, were they were they flying in? That was his job. Oh, he did. For eight years, boot camp school got picked up for this thing and stayed there. The stress and trauma of carrying dead servicemen took its toll on him to the point of becoming like the rest of us who are, you know, chasing a date with suicide. Right? Doesn’t matter what we did in the service. It doesn’t matter either line cook or front line infantry. Doesn’t matter whether you were a navy seal because they are killing themselves too. Or if you were just a Boson’s meat painting the battleships. Right? Battleships. You don’t have any of those doing? Aircraft carriers. K? Everyone’s just as important and we have to suck it up and stick together. Can’t be maligning. We can’t be maligning each other.
Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: It’s a great way to end, but I wanna ask, is there anything else that you think of that you didn’t get to share that you want to?
D Paul Fleming: Oh, no. I think you got a great format. I think you do a great job of of getting the message out to veterans. They’re easy to talk with, so I encourage all of that to reach out and get on your show or listen to your show. And, you know, thank you for all the things that you’re doing. You know, it’s it’s very helpful. To have the wide breadth of conversation that we’re having. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: And thank you for sharing that. I appreciate you and your time today and the work that you are doing, because it does, like you said, it takes all of us. Yeah. Just so much gratitude for you. So thank you so much. Where can people reach you or find you? Where are you on socials? If they wanna reach out to you and connect?
D Paul Fleming: Or you can you can find me on Facebook at D-Paul-Fleming. If you wanna find me on Twitter, same thing, DPaulFleming, but I also have a a big account that’s that wellness. Okay? If you don’t wanna get engaged in the politics, don’t reach out to me on that one. Right? But if you wanna just do vet stuff, DPaulFleming, you can email me or, you know, my my contact information out there. Yeah. dpaulfleming.com. Okay.
Victoria Volk: You know You
D Paul Fleming: know, go ahead. Buy a book and pass it on to a to a veteran. Alright? And tell you a story.
Victoria Volk: And I will put the links to those where people can find you in the show notes. And Thank you again for everything. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world increasingly defined by division and isolation, radical belonging offers a powerful antidote to the epidemic of loneliness. Joe Primo’s article, “Radical Belonging in an Age of Othering,” featured on Grateful Living, delves into this pressing issue with profound insights that resonate deeply amidst our post-pandemic reality.
In this week’s episode, I read his article out loud because, although I tried, I couldn’t have written it better myself. This article (and episode) hits on individual responsibility, which couldn’t be more important as we face an election year in the United States, which goes right into the holidays when we will gather with friends and families, many with opposing views, beliefs, and diverse backgrounds, ethnicities, and preferences.
The Loneliness Epidemic
Surgeon General Vivek Murthy has sounded alarms about a growing crisis—loneliness. This isn’t just about feeling alone; it’s a public health concern with wide-ranging societal implications. As social structures were disrupted during COVID-19, many isolated themselves from their communities and support systems. Now more than ever, rebuilding connections is vital to societal well-being.
Understanding ‘Othering’
Primo introduces us to the concept of ‘othering,’ where differences are highlighted not as strengths but as reasons for exclusion. This binary thinking creates barriers between people based on race, religion, culture, or politics—a misguided attempt to find belonging through conformity rather than embracing diversity. The danger here lies in mistaking fitting in for true belonging.
The Power of Belonging
Belonging is akin to love—it’s unconditional and rooted in internal and external acceptance. To belong means being comfortable with oneself while honoring others’ dignity despite differences. It’s recognizing that everyone holds inherent value simply by existing.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Radical Belonging in an Age of Othering
In a world where change is constant and uncertainty looms large, the notion of belonging becomes more significant than ever. This theme resonates profoundly in Joe Primo’s article “Radical Belonging in an Age of Othering,” featured on Grateful Living. As we navigate the societal shifts post-COVID-19, particularly within our relationships, Primo’s insights offer a beacon of hope and guidance.
The Loneliness Epidemic
The COVID-19 pandemic has left us grappling with not only physical health challenges but also emotional ones. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy highlights a critical issue—the epidemic of loneliness sweeping across the United States. With isolation becoming a norm during lockdowns, many have experienced disconnection from their communities and loved ones. The consequences are dire if we fail to rebuild these vital connections.
Understanding ‘Othering’
Primo delves into the concept of ‘othering,’ which he describes as segregating individuals based on perceived differences—a misguided attempt at achieving belonging through exclusion rather than inclusion. This binary thinking pits people against each other based on race, religion, culture, or politics, undermining their inherent dignity.
Fitting In vs. True Belonging
A key distinction Primo makes is between ‘fitting in’ and true belonging. While fitting in demands conformity and adherence to gatekeepers’ standards—often leading to self-betrayal—belonging celebrates individuality while valuing diversity among people.
True belonging parallels love; it requires being comfortable with oneself first before extending respect towards others’ uniquenesses without judgment or prejudice.
Practicing Grateful Living
To combat ‘otherness,’ Joe advocates for practicing grateful living—a mindset that views life as precious gift worth cherishing every day despite flaws present within ourselves or others around us alike! It encourages deeper exploration into what makes each person valuable beyond surface-level appearances alone!
By acknowledging interconnectedness amongst all beings through gratitude practices such mindfulness meditation exercises (or simply taking time appreciate small moments), radical sense community can emerge naturally over time even amidst chaotic environments like upcoming U.S election year holidays fast approaching soon after this writing date too perhaps?
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is, you’re listening to this week’s episode. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you. And today, I want to share something that somebody else wrote. It’s an article I came across that really is fitting for our times right now, especially if you live here in the US, a lot of change and uncertainty, and I think just astrologically. There’s so much happening in the in the galaxy, in the universe with the stars, and the moons, and moons, moon, all of that. If you follow any of that, there’s been a lot of stuff coming to the forefront. Probably in your life, it has in mind, particularly as it relates to relationships. I think relationships have been a huge focus in what I’ve been reading and what I’ve learned from friends who follow that stuff more so than myself, but I think there’s a lot to be learned from the stars and there’s cultures that knew this, that whose lives depended on the stars, right, and the sun and the moon, and they set their lives to the universe, to what was happening in the skies. And so anyway, I digress all of that. The point of me sharing this article though is what I just said, is all the change and uncertainty that has been happening, particularly since COVID, what we learned from COVID, individually, collectively. And what’s to come? All that uncertainty as it unfolds. And what it means to each of us and our relationships and for ourselves, our relationship with in with ourselves. And I couldn’t have articulated this any better I wouldn’t I didn’t even wanna I tried, but I just this is just perfectly written, and so let me get to it. It is an article written by Joe Porrimo. I hope I’m saying his name correctly. It’s an essay and he titles it radical belonging in an age of other ring. And I found this on a website called Grateful Living and I will link to it in the show notes if you care to read any of his other work. So I’m actually going to read this word for word because I feel it is the perfect share for what is happening again. Here it goes. There is an epidemic of loneliness. The US surgeon general, Vivek Murphy, says, if we fail to build more connected lives, we will continue to splinter and divide until we can no longer stand as a community or a country. As we try to understand the societal illness, I think we need to ask whether we are sick from loneliness, or from not belonging to each other and ourselves. In the depths of our isolation, we quickly encounter a darkness. It is our world closing in on itself. Our entanglement with each other becomes disentangled. We are no longer woven. We are a single thread under tension pulled taut. We’re at risk of far more than fraying. John a Powell, director of the other ring and belonging institute, says that we create other ring to create belonging. Think about this for a moment. In order to feel at home in ourselves and with others, we rally around contempt, prejudice, oppression, and exclusion. If we want to understand this epidemic, it seems that this may be a source of sickness. Could it be that our need to belong, took a misguided route and fueled a pandemic of othering? This pandemic of othering is sustained by binary thinking, which dismantles the inherent dignity of those different from us, religiously, radically, racially, culturally, politically, intellectually, etcetera. Rather than thriving in relationship with each other, many groups find themselves in profound opposition. What is the point of this opposition? What are groups and people trying to protect? For some, it may be the comfort they find in their structure, order and perspective. For some, it may be a desire to feel the nurturing and supportive sense of belonging, but the desire has become confused with fitting in. It’s important to distinguish fitting in from belonging. They are two very different experiences. One has a gatekeeper and requirements. The other is innate. Fitting in asks us to mold ourselves to things like ideologies, appearances, and dogmas. You can fit in if you subscribe to the group’s prescriptions. Belonging on the other hand is not about being affirmed for your likeness others or your methodical virtue keeping. Belonging is not interested in group think and mutual paths on the back. Belonging is where dignity, the sacred, and redemption meet. It is where you can be wally you while also being in relationship with those wildly different from you. Belonging is a both and. The paradox of belonging is much like the paradox of love. Father David Steingle Rast says that to live means to be in relationship and that requires love and action. In order to put love into action and experience belonging, you also have to be at home in yourself. When you belong to yourself, you are better equipped to see, appreciate and respect someone else’s dignity. This is because you can imagine, remember, or acknowledge the pain you’ve endured and how it shaped your perspective and behavior. The unkind and hateful words that are only one grievance away from being spoken. The wars you might be tempted to fight if the opposition was on your stoop. The destruction you might cause if all the power was yours, the food you would steal for a child, the walls you might build at fear was your guidepost, the sicknesses that could fill your mind if you believed your fears, When you can imagine being uttered, then you can see the only path is understanding. A grateful orientation to life is in opposition to other ring rather than unifying around exclusions a practice of grateful living challenges us to seek, observe, and understand. The many ways in which we are never fully alone, never independent or separate from others. The practice of grateful living helps us address the origin of our societal ailments, because it illuminates our interconnectedness by focusing on and acknowledging the details of every lived moment and the network of people required to sustain our lives. This perspective understands that when we lose sight of our inner relationality. We can trust that everything will go sideways, making us sick with fear, greed, violence, exploitation, loneliness, despair, and war. These and other detriments who are well-being fill the enormous cavern where belonging should live and thrive. To avoid falling into the trap of the rage machine or binary thinking, The practice of grateful living asks us to ground ourselves in the root belief that life is a gift. From this root, we grow a perspective that all people have inherent value. Rather than anyone being dispensable and disposable, We know that to be alive means to be in possession of something sacred. And when the sacred is not easily discoverable in another, gratefulness invites you to look more deeply for it like a hatchling in the grass. Stop. Look. Keep looking. When you’re tempted to quit, stop once again and look more. This is what it means to be alive, to be in relation and always on the lookout for all the opportunities put love into action. This perspective challenges you to observe someone’s worth or worthiness even when it is far from sight. Worthing of what you may ask. Well, what are you worthy of in your life? Love, acceptance, safety, nourishment, shelter, redemption, and connection are a few things your dignity bestows on you. When we individually or collectively other, we strip people of this worthiness. We categorize people into good and bad, worthy, and unworthy. We need to ask ourselves how anyone can survive these dichotomies. The response to loneliness and othering must be radical belonging. This is the challenge. This is the work of grateful living. If loneliness is a malady born from a plague that is unraveling or interconnectivity, then gratefulness is the only remedy large enough to treat an illness that is pulling us apart when life requires us to put love into action and remain in relation. There are some reflection questions at the end of this article, and those are, what does it feel like to be otherwise by a person or group that does not understand you? How do you process that pain? If you catch yourself othering, what is coming up for you? What is the fear behind those thoughts? And finally, where do you have an opportunity to invite someone in? To a conversation gathering a meal instead of excluding based on differences. I know this episode was a little bit different than my typical format, but I was really inspired to share this and I just followed the inspired nudge. And I hope this article that you heard me speak to you today has sparked something within you to really look at especially as we’re coming into if you live in the US, it’s an election year. We’re gonna have the holidays soon after. You’re gonna be getting together with families, people, friends, maybe many of those who have opposing views and opinions. I want you to think back to this episode. Listen to it again if you have to. Read the transcription if it’s easier for you to take in information that way. Really, it it is up to each of us individually to sweep our own doorstep. Personally speaking, I’ve had some unraveling of personal friendships and relationships in my life. And I could have just kept pulling that thread and just letting it just come all apart. Right? I could have. But it mattered too much to me. And if a relationship matters to you, you will look at yourself, You will find what do you own in that relationship. What is yours? What do you need to apologize for? What do you need to forgive within yourself? Or others, which just side note forgiveness is not for the other person. It is for you, by the way. So it’s not something that I recommend that you do in person to somebody else you know, I forgive you because, what if they don’t feel like they did anything wrong? Right? You know, they could you don’t you have no idea sometimes what the response would be if you say to someone, I forgive you. Well, what are you forgiving me for? You know? So forgiveness is for you. It’s not for the other person. But this article just really inspired me and brought up what I’ve personally experienced as of late.
And I chose to put love into action. Because that those relationships mattered to me. I know that those relationships are what sustain me. They’re grounding for me, but not only just for me, for us as a collective, for us as a whole, for our group as a whole. And again, like, this article just beautifully shared what’s been on my heart lately, and And it’s an invitation for us all to really look into ourselves. And, you know, do we want to fit in or do we want to belong? And sometimes when you know that you have this knowing and of belonging. It’s sacred. It feels sacred. And There’s a quote here it says realizing that I am from the very beginning. Embedded in a network of relationships makes me ready for an important insight. The innermost essence of the word I is relationship. And that is my brother David Stindel Rast. He must have written a book called you are here. I will do a search for that and see if I can find the book the link and put that in the show notes as well. But again, if you wanna check out this article, read more of Joe Primo’s work on Grateful Living. I will link it in the show notes, so check it out there. And I hope this episode gave you some food for thought as we’re getting closer and closer to an election and following. After that, the holidays. Yay. I’m sure many of you are feeling quite anxious already about that. So if you have any questions, you want to continue this conversation. I encourage you to reach out to me, Victoria at the unleashtruck dot com, my website, the unleashtruck dot com, You can see there’s a contact form there. If, you know, you have a question that you would like me to answer on the podcast. I love doing those episodes too. I haven’t done one of those in quite some time. But until next time, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, Uncategorized |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world increasingly defined by division and isolation, radical belonging offers a powerful antidote to the epidemic of loneliness. Joe Primo’s article, “Radical Belonging in an Age of Othering,” featured on Grateful Living, delves into this pressing issue with profound insights that resonate deeply amidst our post-pandemic reality.
In this week’s episode, I read his article out loud because, although I tried, I couldn’t have written it better myself. This article (and episode) hits on individual responsibility, which couldn’t be more important as we face an election year in the United States, which goes right into the holidays when we will gather with friends and families, many with opposing views, beliefs, and diverse backgrounds, ethnicities, and preferences.
The Loneliness Epidemic
Surgeon General Vivek Murthy has sounded alarms about a growing crisis—loneliness. This isn’t just about feeling alone; it’s a public health concern with wide-ranging societal implications. As social structures were disrupted during COVID-19, many isolated themselves from their communities and support systems. Now more than ever, rebuilding connections is vital to societal well-being.
Understanding ‘Othering’
Primo introduces us to the concept of ‘othering,’ where differences are highlighted not as strengths but as reasons for exclusion. This binary thinking creates barriers between people based on race, religion, culture, or politics—a misguided attempt to find belonging through conformity rather than embracing diversity. The danger here lies in mistaking fitting in for true belonging.
The Power of Belonging
Belonging is akin to love—it’s unconditional and rooted in internal and external acceptance. To belong means being comfortable with oneself while honoring others’ dignity despite differences. It’s recognizing that everyone holds inherent value simply by existing.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing the Grief Recovery Method – A Journey to Unleashing Your Heart
Grieving is a universal experience, yet each individual’s journey through it is deeply personal. In a recent episode of Grieving Voices, the host opened up about her transformative encounter with the Grief Recovery Method—a structured approach that not only helped her confront over three decades of unresolved grief but also catalyzed profound personal growth and self-realization.
The Grief Recovery Method stands out for its evidence-based framework, which offers more than just coping mechanisms; it provides a pathway to genuine healing. Our host’s story illustrates this beautifully. Initially skeptical and hesitant, she was eventually drawn into this method by what seemed like fate—a training trip to Austin, Texas—that marked the beginning of her transformation.
One memorable moment from this journey involved an encounter with another traveler whose presence underscored her readiness for change. This incident highlighted how physical symptoms can manifest when we are on the brink of emotional breakthroughs—akin to purging before true cleansing begins.
Beyond Loss: Broad Applicability
What makes the Grief Recovery Method particularly compelling is its flexibility in addressing various kinds of loss—not just bereavement but relationships with living people, inner child issues, and even abstract concepts such as money or addiction. One client’s story exemplifies how entrenched coping strategies can obscure one’s emotional landscape until they are gradually dismantled through guided self-awareness and expression facilitated by this method.
Hopeful Steps Towards Healing
Our host passionately advocates for maintaining hope throughout your healing journey. She emphasizes that consistent positive actions contribute significantly towards recovery—each step forward being an essential part of unleashing one’s heart (and thereby life). Her own program “Do Grief Differently” aligns perfectly with these principles offering both online & in-person support tailored specifically toward deep emotional work.
Join Me On This Path To Fulfillment
In closing remarks during her podcast episode—and here too—the invitation remains open: become part our community! Engage actively within spaces where similar stories unfold daily because together lies strength needed while confronting deepest sorrows head-on…unleash YOUR heart today so tomorrow becomes brighter than ever imagined possible!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello friends. Welcome to another episode of Grieving Voices. Thank you for tuning in this week. If it is your first time listening, thank you for being here. And if you’ve been here before, thank you for coming back. This week, I just wanna talk a little bit about what it means to me when I say at the end of every episode, with every guest or a solo episode. When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. It came up during one of my recent sessions with a client and who inspired this podcast episode actually because one of the things I haven’t really shared with on its own episode is my personal experience going through the grief recovery method and and how it changed my life. You’ll hear little snippets here and there and podcast interviews whether I’m guessing on another podcast or whether it’s during an interview with somebody else. But really, it’s that experience that had me come up with this slogan at the end of every podcast episode because through that experience of going through grief recovery, I truly did feel like I had unleashed my heart and so much of my life unfolded and the potential within me just kind of blossomed because I had addressed my grief and worked through a lot of painful and traumatic things in my past and continue to do so. So it’s more than just a slogan to me. It really is a belief system that I have. And so when you hear it at the end of every episode, I hope that you hear hope really because without hope, what do we really have? You also need some faith in there, right, trusting the process, feeling supported, that life has your back, that life happens for you, not to you, even the worst of things. It’s really difficult to look at the lessons at the time you’re going through something that’s really challenging or difficult, but there is a beautiful unfolding and an evolution of one spirit after you’ve gone through a difficult time. If you lean into the unfolding. If you’re open to the bread crumbs, if you’re open to receiving new information, new tools such as that with the grief recovery method, or any other modality or think something, you know, coaching or what have you that you’re looking into. So my experience with the grief recovery method in the beginning of twenty nineteen was one of excitement and also, you know, a lot of uncertainty. I didn’t I felt certain that that was the very thing I needed, that was going to help me personally in my grief. I also felt very confident in what I had read and the research I had done and testimonials and all of that that I had come across. That it was going to be, at the very least, informative and a great way to explore my past in a supported evidence based framework which really spoke to me too because I’m kind of a skeptic. I’m not kind of. I am. I am a skeptic. And after trying different things throughout my life and seeing this personal development experiment unfold over at that point five years heavily I will say that if you have children, if you are a parent, or raising children, even if they’re not yours, they bring up all your insecurities. They are the I I phoned myself saying lately, children. Your kids, like kids that you’re raising are the best personal development project you will ever endeavor. Anyway, going into it, I was hopeful that Finally, there would be something that would would help me. And it was way more than I bargained for in the best of ways or the experience. Let’s just say, the very first day of training or the certification or the class or what have you. I woke up that morning. I had issues out of both ends. I was I had diarrhea and I was puking. I was it was, like, the purge before the purge, I call it, And I had actually met somebody. I had come into I did my training in Austin, Texas because initially where I was going to drive for my certification was canceled. So I decided to invest way more than I had to and I went to Austin, Texas for mine and went on a tour bus and met somebody Metigail from I think she was from California. Therefore, a different type of training, not for the same one as me. And we connected and rolled the tour bus together and ended up going to dinner afterwards and had great conversation and we actually ended up having the same thing at the restaurant. And so I texted her the next morning and she was perfectly fine. We had the exact same thing and she was perfectly fine and I was not. So I can only surmise that I was having the purge before the purge, but fortunately, for me, I had already read the grief recovery handbook, which we were going through in our program. And I had done so in between the first before I being count my my first training I signed up for to be canceled and deciding to do the second or deciding to sign up for Austin. So in the meantime, I thought, you know, my husband was like, well, you’ve taught yourself so many different things. You can teach yourself this and that was, you know, I did attempt to do this alone. I attempted to work through my grief alone because there was I I had signed up months in advance. And so there was still some time for me to attempt to do it alone and that didn’t go so well, which prompted me to sign up to go to Austin. And I’m very glad I did. It was not only a learning experience which I knew it would be, but it was also very transformative for me. I I often say that I I was not the same person coming on the plane home as going down there. And everything that I’ve accomplished in the time since grief recovery was because of that program, was because I addressed my grief, because I did the hard thing and looked at thirty plus years of resentment and anger, lots of anger, a lot of anger, which can really be an uncomfortable emotion for a lot of people, by the way. And I would do it in a heartbeat all over again. And I had a lot of regret. I felt a lot of sadness actually after coming back from that training that I hadn’t found it sooner. And that was grief. I had grief around that. I had grief around the me that was apparent to young children who was projecting so much anger and pain onto their kids. I had grief over that. You have so many awarenesses that you discover through going through this program that it’s I’d sum it up in one episode just I don’t even know that I I could. So in a nutshell, it’s it’s transformative and it’s life changing. And it is knowledge and information that is yours forever. You have it forever. This framework, you can apply it to so many different relationships, not just relationships to those who have died, but to those living, to your relationship with alcohol, to food, money, your inner child, it’s so versatile. I don’t know of any other program or anything of its kind that although it looks like it’s cookie cutter and it’s for anybody and everybody, which it is. By the way, it’s still unique to you because it’s your brief story that you are working through. So what you are unleashing your heart from when you go through the grief recovery method or through my program which uses the grief recovery method do grief differently, which is a twelve week one on one program. You are unleashing the unresolved pain and grief that is probably sitting in your body right now. As you’re listening to this, if you are going about your day and something reminds you of a painful memory, there’s probably unresolved grief there. A client of mine I’m currently working with had a beautiful awareness where she recognized that how she was taught to approach someone in her life who was struggling with the mental illness was so ingrained in her over so many years to tap into her own emotions and how she felt became difficult. Like, it wasn’t it wasn’t even the default. Like, the default for her became focus on the other to, you know, try and fix it, to try and make it better, and make sure that the other was okay. That there’s so much focus on that and using the correct and proper language around that person as to not upset them or make them feel a certain way. Right? Because not only was the is the was the person struggling with mental illness, but also addiction, you know, it’s this two pronged issue, She realized, I’ve been so focused on the other for so many years. I didn’t even know how to tap into my own emotions and communicate that with people around me. And so what she’s learned through this process is really how to open up and communicate with other people, how she is feeling, how she is feeling, and what she’s experiencing. She’s slowly unleashing her heart, And I see this unfolding with every client I work with because so many people that go through this program don’t even it’s like you don’t even recognize yourself after at the end of it. You do, but you don’t. It’s like, I think you recognize the parts of you that you’ve buried so deep, that even you are surprised by what you see in the mirror at the end of this. And it’s a beautiful thing. And if there is anything that I can share with you today that would be helpful, is that whatever you are doing to move yourself forward, whether it’s grief recovery or not. You know, grief is cumulative and it’s cumulatively negative, but healing is cumulative and it’s cumulatively positive. So every little thing that you’re doing daily, your daily actions, things that are moving you forward are still a very important part of your healing, are still a very important part of unleashing your heart. But if you want to really dig in deep and get to the nitty gritty and dense time really, the time it takes to do all these other things and, you know, one thing stacked on the other, whether it’s yoga and meditation or, you know, all these things stack up. Right? And are good things, you know, grief recovery, do grief differently. This is like my one hundred and forty four hertz fork when I use in that I use in biofuel tuning, it just really gets to the nitty gritty. And if you want to get to the nitty gritty, to unleash your heart so you can unleash your life. This is the one program that I wholeheartedly stand behind. And I wouldn’t have experienced it myself and continue to do the work I would have quit doing this a long time ago, but I believe in it so much. So that’s what it means to me when I say at the end of every episode, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. It’s a belief that I have. And if you believe that it’s possible that you can unleash your heart and unleash your life, I would love to work with you. Or just be a part of my journey, be a part of this community. Share this episode. Share my work. If you’re not ready to dive in deep. You’re paying it you’re still paying it forward and every little bit of information that you take in is just one step in front of the other. And I encourage you to keep doing so. He is again. Holding on to hope is one of the most important aspects of healing and I never thought it was possible for me to let go of my anger and pain and resentment and work through the trauma that I had experienced in my past, but I did. And I’m sitting here talking to you about it. Because I guarantee you for you, the you know, the worst has already happened. And what do you have to lose? What do you have to lose by not unleashing your heart? My friend, it’s really difficult to unleash your life if you haven’t, unleash your heart. So I hope that was inspiring for you. I hope that you feel a sense of hope after listening to this. I hope that your curiosity has been piqued about to grief differently or grief recovery with I mean, there’s specialists all around the world. You can go to the grief recovery method dot com You can find a specialist near you. There’s certain training that needs to happen to do this work online, which I have. So I can do this work online. I can do this work in groups, in person, and groups online. So if you’re interested, please reach out for more information. That’s it for today. Just wanted to share my experience of going through grief recovery and It’s not easy work, but it’s so rewarding. And I still reap the rewards going on five years later. So I wish that the same for you. Alright. My friends until next time. When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life.
Much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Spirituality |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In today’s episode, Rev. Christine Davies, a hospital chaplaincy leader, shares the path that led her into spiritual care and offers invaluable insights on navigating grief. A deep church involvement from childhood shaped her life path, a calling toward medicine influenced by her nurse mother, and personal health crises that highlighted the importance of compassionate bedside manners.
Christine emphasizes chaplains’ unique role in healthcare—focusing on emotional and spiritual support rather than just logistical aspects like social workers. She underscores the necessity of open conversations about end-of-life issues, informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss and grief. These discussions are crucial for making advanced care plans that respect patients’ wishes.
Key takeaways from Christine’s insights include:
- Personalized Spiritual Support:
- Individualized guidance is essential during times of grief.
- Chaplains fill critical gaps in patient care through collaboration with medical teams.
- Navigating Grief:
- Intrapsychic loss involves not only mourning what was lost but also shattered plans.
- Acknowledging each person’s unique experience is vital for healing.
- End-of-Life Conversations:
- Open dialogue about death prepares families emotionally.
- Advanced care planning ensures patients’ wishes are respected.
- Holistic Healing Practices:
- Integrative modalities like Reiki can complement traditional counseling to address energetic aspects of grief.
- Caregiver Self-Care:
- Setting boundaries and seeking personal wellness resources is crucial for caregivers’ well-being.
- Advocacy for Holistic Healthcare:
- There’s a need to integrate holistic practices within the healthcare system despite systemic challenges.
Christine’s work highlights how embracing emotional expression and physical activities can aid in grieving processes while advocating for more comprehensive patient-centered care approaches within healthcare settings.
Her story inspires us to live meaningfully, engage openly in conversations about mortality, seek supportive communities during grief journeys, and advocate relentlessly for holistic patient care that honors every aspect of the human experience—emotional, spiritual, and physical.
RESOURCES:
- SDI.org
- Do Grief Differently
- Enneagram
- Reiki
- Biofield Tuning
- Book, The Four Things That Matter Most
CONNECT:
- Substack
- Website
- IG
- FB
- LinkedIn
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Grief and Spirituality in Healthcare
In the latest episode of “Grieving Voices,” we delve into a profound conversation with Reverend Christine Von Davies, a beacon of hope and spiritual guidance at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital. As an ordained Presbyterian minister, seminary professor, and trained spiritual director, Christine offers invaluable insights into normalizing grief while encouraging individuals to live more fully.
A Journey Into Chaplaincy
Christine’s path to chaplaincy is deeply rooted in her upbringing within the church. Initially drawn towards medicine due to her mother’s influence as a nurse, she discovered her true calling through volunteering as an emergency medical technician. Her passion for providing emotional support was solidified by personal experiences with healthcare providers’ bedside manners and an associate pastor’s comforting presence during health crises. This journey led her toward pastoral care—a vocation that fills essential gaps in patient care by focusing on the emotional and spiritual aspects often overlooked in clinical settings.
The Importance of Advanced Care Planning
One of the crucial roles Christine plays involves facilitating advanced care planning discussions—conversations that are often avoided but necessary for ensuring patients’ end-of-life wishes are respected. Through these dialogues, families can navigate complex decisions together, fostering peace amidst uncertainty.
Navigating Grief: Personal Experiences Shape Professional Insights
Christine’s own encounters with loss have deepened her understanding of grief’s multifaceted nature. She introduces us to concepts like intrapsychic loss—the shattering not just from losing someone but also from losing envisioned futures—and emphasizes acknowledging each individual’s unique grieving process without judgment or expectation.
Her work highlights how vital it is for healthcare systems today shift towards patient-centered approaches where empathy reigns supreme over mere logistics management; recognizing people holistically rather than purely clinically enhances both healing journeys & overall well-being significantly!
Addressing Spiritual Crises Amidst Painful Times
Many patients experience spiritual crises when faced with illness or death—a reality exacerbated by well-meaning yet harmful religious platitudes offered too readily sometimes! Herein lies another integral aspect tackled expertly under Rev.Von Davies’ guidance: allowing genuine expressions ranging anywhere between anger/sadness/relief etc., thereby validating authentic emotions instead suppressing them needlessly…
By embracing such authenticity wholeheartedly herself (drawing inspiration even from mystical notions like “dark night soul”), she encourages others similarly find solace transformative potential residing therein… Ultimately though? It all boils down living meaningfully whilst helping those around do likewise navigating respective paths gracefully despite inevitable challenges encountered along way…
Practical Tips For Those Grappling With Loss:
- Give Yourself Space: Allow yourself ample time process feelings involved seeking community support wherever possible—whether via bereavement groups/spiritual direction sessions/faith-based organizations alike…
- Don’t Isolate: Engaging supportive networks (both offline online) proves immensely beneficial throughout entire ordeal
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Reverend Christine Vaughan Davies. She runs the hospital chappellancy department at Robert Wood Johnson University Hospital. She is an ordained presbyterian minister, seminary professor and trained spiritual director. Christine shares stories from her chaplency work to normalize grief and help people live more fully in the moment while educating about grief, loss, and advanced care planning. She lives to their family on a small farm in New Jersey, spending her time chasing chickens and show furring her children to their activities. Thank you so much for your time and being my guest today, and And for the work that you’re doing because it’s not easy working in end of life and in the grief space too. And so I have questions around, well, let’s start there. And we kinda spoke briefly before we started recording, but for a lot of helpers, often it’s their own experience that bring them into the professions of helping others. And so what has been your experience that led to you becoming ordained? And doing this work in grief and loss in advanced care planning.
Christine Davies: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and for creating this space for us to make this a part of everyday conversation. I began as a my journey to become a hospital chaplain and maybe I should have backtracked because not everyone knows what that is, but I work in a hospital and essentially I’m an extra layer of emotional and spiritual support for patients families, as well as the staff that work within the hospital. But how I got into this was I grew up in the church, my family, and I went to the local Presbyterian Church. I really took to it. I was very much in it. And did youth group and bell choir and all of that and was a pretty precocious kid and was convinced from a young age of god’s presence in my life as well as the fact that god wanted me to help the most people possible. Sometimes in religious circles we talk about calling, and that was my sense of calling her vocation. And I thought the best way to do that would be through medicine. My mother was a nurse, so I think she maybe egged that dream on a little bit. And I had actually volunteered and worked for a number of years as an emergency medical technician, so riding in the backs of ambulances with people when they were going through major medical crises. And it was in that work where I recognized as as much as I could do minor repair of wounds and administering oxygen and ensuring safe transport to the hospital, what really spoke to me was being able to hold people’s hands while they were scared. You know, and trying to provide just a little bit of comfort to them when they didn’t know what was going on and they were oftentimes questioning. Right? Why is this happening to me? And so it was through that and then my own experiences of being a patient. I was in and out of hospitals for quite some time, including one that I used to work in later on, trying to figure out what was going on with me medically. And eventually, I was diagnosed with generalized epilepsy. Which I’m fortunate is under control now, but I was having a lot of seizures and also had a lot of frustration at the bedside manner of some of the healthcare providers who were caring for me. And no one seemed to get how this was impacting me from a holistic perspective. And I was around the same time that the church, my family, was attending, had a new associate pastor, who just took me out in between my hospitalizations, took me out for dinner, and talked to me about what it was like and cared for me in that way. And I found more renewal through that conversation than I did in any of the medications.
Victoria Volk: Now don’t get me wrong.
Christine Davies: I still take all my medications. I’m a big fan of medication, but It was recognizing that there’s multiple ways to go about healing, and that was really the first time I encountered past oral care or spiritual care, which is what I now provide to patients and also teach Clarity how to provide.
Victoria Volk: A lot of people might think that, well, are you a licensed social worker? Because often that is kind of left to the social worker in a hospital setting. And so, like, what is your scope of practice in that way versus a social worker?
Christine Davies: So I’m unique in that I was also a licensed social worker who took me a little while to figure out my exact journey. And I also went to social work school and got my MSW. But where I, you know, as a chaplain, chaplains are really looking at you know, more of the spiritual bent. So for instance, when I worked as a cognitive behavioral therapist before this, we would talk about all sorts of things as now as a chaplain and spiritual director. I’m really focused on that, particularly In the hospital, oftentimes, we’ll fill kind of a larger role just because the social workers are having to do a lot more of the logistical work. So things like you know, discharge planning, dealing with insurances, things of that nature. It’s funny I was walking behind a surgeon a couple weeks ago and he was with a resident and he was passing the chapel and I was a few steps behind them. So he didn’t see me and he says, oh, yeah, the chaplains are great here. They’re like the closest thing we have to a therapist. So make sure you call them for all your patients. And so there is an element of that where we are trying to fill the gap for patients in that way, but we also work very closely with social workers. We work closely with the medical team to really provide that interdisciplinary care.
Victoria Volk: What were the lessons that you received growing up about end of life and death and dying and the beliefs that you had and how have those changed or shifted as you found your path in this work.
Christine Davies: Yeah. So I didn’t grow up hearing a lot about end of life. Or death and dying apart from, you know, when we had relatives that I wasn’t particularly close to die. And I think that’s part of what got me into this because why aren’t we talking about this more? This should be something that we’re really looking at even from a young age. Like my kids know much more about death than I ever did at that age growing up. And even though I was in the church, It was something where there was a funeral, it was sad, but then the expectation was, okay, we keep moving. Whereas when I was going through some of my own experiences, particularly around pregnancy loss, I recognized no one is talking about this in the way that I think that they could. And when I’ve been working with bereavement groups, a lot of what I’m hearing from that bereaved individuals is society wants me to move on and there’s no moving on or I’m not ready, you know, I I can’t just I like to say we move through it, we don’t move on from it. So I think trying to dispel some of the myths that are out there about grief has been important to me. And then I do a lot of advanced care planning in my job as a job on at the hospital. So helping people to think about their death, to name a healthcare Oxy for someone in case you can’t provide what you’d want medically for your treatment. If you can’t give voice to it, how do you tell someone else what it is that you’d want in advance of that? But people don’t like to have those conversations be and I’ve been accused by many people, including my own family of being morbid for this reason because we just, you know, push death to the wayside and we don’t like to think about it.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things that you experienced as a patient and as a child during that time that you could give some parents insight into in how to support their child who might be in the medical system and have that be having that experience that you had? Like, what would be some advice that you would give?
Christine Davies: Yeah. So one of the things that I see and I just talked about this in the hospital where I had been a patient for a number of years was recognizing the individual, not just coming in and saying, you know, especially in a teaching hospital where there’s lots of doctors coming in at any one time and saying, oh, in this bed, we have and reading off the medical record number, or the diagnosis rather than saying, oh, this is Christine. You know, Christine, what’s going on for you today? And just ignoring me completely or talking to and I was a I was a teenager when I was going through a lot of that you know, so I was sometimes there by myself. My parents couldn’t be there all the time, and not engaging me at all. And I think we’re shifting away from that in healthcare majorly to patient centered care and family centered care. Where we are giving voice to the patient’s experience, to the family’s experience. One of the things I tell a lot of patients that I work with and people that I work with in my spiritual direction practice is that you know your body better than anyone. Because part of my experience was, you know, nobody was seeing my seizures. I was just coming out of it postdictal, which is kind of the period after a seizure where you’re not really making sense and I’d be on the floor and I didn’t know why. But nobody had seen them. And so it took a while to figure out what was going on. But I knew this isn’t right. Thankfully, my mother also realized that wasn’t right, but I had a lot of people say, no, no, no, you need a therapist. It’s in your head. You know, it’s a lot of dismissing what was going on for me, which I think is especially true of women as well as people of color, that their pain or their symptoms aren’t taken seriously by our healthcare field. And I work in healthcare and still I see this. And sort of really encouraging people to, you know, know themselves, know their body, and advocate for what they’re needing.
Victoria Volk: You had mentioned seven ectopic pregnancies?
Christine Davies: Oh, I had one ectopic pregnancy and then overall I’ve had about seven miscarriages.
Victoria Volk: How has that shifted your perspective of grief and how have you navigated that?
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Yeah. It was really difficult for me in in each one of them in different ways. I had some before I had my children and then in between pregnancies. I think it shifted by first what I would call intrapsychic loss, which is what I talk a lot about, which is not just the loss of the baby or the pregnancy, but it’s also this idea that this is not how I was planning for my life to go or even for some people, they encounter that when there’s been a major trauma in their life And it’s almost like the piercing of the veil of I didn’t even know that this could happen to me. Now, I did have a a semblance of this could happen to me having worked in healthcare. But really, a lot of it had to be an internal experience. And that’s something that I hold up to other people to recognize, like, you know, plenty of women go through this, you know, to so many, and it’s not talked about nearly enough. It’s talked about more now that when I was going through and I didn’t even know what ectopic pregnancy was and this was before Google was as, you know, prolific as it is now. But really trying to normalize it for individuals and talk about it so that women as well as, you know, their partners don’t have to grieve in isolation around it. A lot of what I do now in the hospital is provide comfort to parents who are going through the same thing, who the technical term is a fetal demise, but someone who has given birth to a baby who may not have taken a breath in this world or may have taken a breath that was their first breath and their last breath in the same day. And it is completely devastating, of course, for the family, but having gone through similar scenarios myself I try to actually do them when the calls come into my office. We do have a staff of people, so others often do them, but if I’m able to just because I know what it is to go through that. And sometimes, people who have not grieved in certain ways can meanwhile, but not realize the impact of their words or their presence. So for instance, when I was going through that period, I had very well meeting friends say things to me like, well, at least you know you can get pregnant or everything. Christine, you should know you’re a minister. Everything happens for a reason. Mhmm. And I get us on a soapbox about some of these religious platitudes. That we kind of throw out there, but we don’t always understand the spiritual harm that they can do. And so, you know, part of my mission and how I have found purpose through my pain is helping others to to not have to endure that. And it can spin people into a whole spiritual cycle of distress. I mean, grief alone can do that, but then when you have other people trying to care from you. But not not being as supportive as they can. So that’s a little bit of how my story has impacted me. It certainly made the work harder. In a lot of ways, I think about times I was with patients before, I had my losses and times after. Much harder now, but I think I’m more effective as a result of it.
Victoria Volk: Yeah, to share, piggyback what you had said, I feel like those platitudes can be spiritually stunning for us. Mhmm. And then it’s like, well, God need another angel, you know, that kind of remark and it’s like, no. They should be here with me. And, well, I guess I need to blame God then because you know, I that’s I had a lot of trauma and grief in my childhood and I blame God for a very long time.
Christine Davies: Yeah. If you’re following that, you know, logic of and I like to call it toxic spirituality. Right? Always putting a positive spin on things. If you’re following that logic to that end point that God did this to you in some sort of cosmic test or whatever, of course, I’m gonna think that God is a real jerk.
And that’s gonna impact my relationship with God. One of the things I see a lot of in the hospital is anger at God. Oftentimes, with good reason, if this is the logic or the theology that people are following, and then a lot of our religious institutions don’t allow a space for that anger. A lot of patients that say to me, like, I’m really angry at God for, you know, doing this, but they are worried that even voicing it aloud is blasphemy. And so they’re like, I can’t talk to my clergy about it, which I think is why we sometimes get it as this anonymous spiritual person within the hospital.
Victoria Volk: Alright? Because you have no skin in their game.
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: What is the advice then that you give to people if they find themselves in that situation? And how have you how did you personally navigate those relationships with those people? That would say those types of things.
Christine Davies: Yeah. I think I was fortunate and I had other people that weren’t saying those things to me. And so I just knew, okay, I have to lean on them a little bit more. And then I had people who actually, after the fact, it when they endured their own loss later on, came back to me and said, I realized that I set this in the moments. Mhmm. And it wouldn’t be helpful now. And so that’s why I like to tell people about it. So they don’t have to go through the experience of it to know the implications of it. But what I do encourage people to do is to really lean into their emotions, whatever they happen to be, Whether that’s anger, sometimes it’s relief. I see a lot of families that have relief when a loved one dies and or pregnancies lost or other things and people feel guilty about that. So I think it needs to be all all sad all the time. But lifting that up is a valid emotional experience. And I would say find people who will be supportive of you, whether that are those are grief groups, whether that is working with a therapist or a spiritual director or if you have friends or family that have been through it in similar ways. Sometimes it’s a little too hard if people have been through it for them to be able to be with you, but there’s a fantastic quote that I use a lot to inform my work, which is the cry of the soul can only be heard by one whose soul has already cried.
Victoria Volk: That’s good.
Christine Davies: And I think that speaks a lot to you know, how we can be tender with others when we know that tender place of grief for ourselves.
Victoria Volk: That speaks to what I say in my podcast quite often is that someone can someone can only sit with you in the depths of your grief to the depths that they’ve, like, allowed themselves to feel their own. That’s Mhmm. Way more eloquently beautiful.
Christine Davies: I don’t know who said it, actually. Maybe your listeners can find it out. I have tried to, you know, big I heard it somewhere. I’ve tried, but I’m I’m not the most technologically savvy person, but I’ve not been able to figure it out. But yeah, and that’s a lot of how our educational system in chapel and see actually works is people come in having, you know, gone to seminary and, you know, know all of these weighty theological understandings. But a lot of what we have to do in our training is around the emotional pieces, particularly as it relates to that counter transparency. Empathy. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Absolutely. Come naturally to everything.
Christine Davies: Now it’s hard one.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. What has your grief taught you?
Christine Davies: Yeah. So there’s this concept in Christianity, although other spirituality sometimes draw from it as well, called the dark night of the soul, And it is this concept in kind of mysticism where there is great darkness is really referring to. It’s not so much the night, but the obscurity. The not knowing why things are happening. If people believe in God, they may feel abandoned by God or that they can’t feel God’s presence. And it’s really when everything we thought we knew kind of changes. And feels like the rug has been pulled out of us from a spiritual perspective. And the amazing thing about these dark nights of the soul is that often they result in transformation, in a new dawn of a new understanding of ourselves, of our sense of spirituality, or how we connect with universe, or others. And most people said, you know, it was terrible to go through. I don’t want to go through that ever again. And yet, I have a changed meaning perspective as a result. Now that takes a lot of time. Right? You know, just wake up one morning and it’s like, oh, everything’s hunky dory now. But I do believe that a lot of my own grief and loss, a lot of the grief and loss that I’ve sat with for other people, it also helps me to not take things for granted, knowing that this life is not, you know, tomorrow is not promised. There’s lots of, you know, meditations around, you know, engaging our liminality. As a spiritual practice. And, you know, using that as a framework for how do I live into my life, you know, knowing we’re here for just, you know, a speck of time when looking at the entirety. Of the world. So again, some people that wouldn’t be as a positive spin on it, but to me, it really does motivate me in how to live my daily life.
Victoria Volk: And that brings up a question of how you live your daily life. Now, But as you were going through it, you’re having to not only manage your own emotions, but also the emotions of your existing children as you were experiencing child loss yourself, the motions of your spouse? Yes?
Christine Davies: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Can you speak to that a little bit? Like her Mhmm. How how it is to hold your own grief, but then also have a family that’s gonna be there, you
Christine Davies: know, too. Well, and to be clear, when a lot of my losses were before I had my first child, and then the other losses came before my first child was even aware, like, he was maybe two or three. So he didn’t really know anything that was going on. But I will speak to it from the perspective of, you know, and I and many people I talked to that go through pregnancy loss have this experience where it is such a painful experience physically And so in addition to emotionally and spiritually, but so I remember, like, you know, lying on the couch and not being able to to do much. You know, with my two year old who wanted to jump all over me because I was in such pain. And, you know, so that’s certainly a piece where I was trying to balance all of it. And then I think with my spouse, I would probably handle it differently today than I did then. You know, for me, I don’t think I saw the impact that it was having on him and his own helplessness. And so that’s, you know, that informs my work today because I am always checking, you know, with the partners, whether it’s husband, whether it’s a wife, whether it’s the the grandparents that are there, Now, sometimes I’ll take them outside of the room and say, you know, how are you doing? Knowing that, you know, a lot of the focus is going to be on the mother with good reason.
But that there’s grief that’s not really talked about there for others. Howard Bauchner: What
Victoria Volk: do you recommend to people who So let’s say, I’m, you know, in the hospital and I have this experience and a terrible experience and I you come to me and I’m a very appreciative of you and your time and your gifts that you’re sharing, and then but then I have to go home. Uh-huh. So how how does that how do you what do you have to say to people who First of all, may not even have the experience that you provide Mhmm. In their local hospital
Christine Davies: Right.
Victoria Volk: But then also moving forward resources tools or what do you recommend or how can people begin healing on their own. Mhmm. And can they on their own?
Christine Davies: Mhmm. I think that’s one of the things that makes grief so difficult for us to have these huge conversations around because everyone’s experience is gonna be different. Right? So my first miscarriage, so much different than my last. At that, you know, on my seventh, I was like, okay, this is old hat. Like, I know I know what we’re doing here. But for some people, all seven are going to be difficult. Or for some people, you know, that might be, you know, I was with a woman the other day, and I said, oh, you have a cancer diagnosis, you know. How are you coping with that? Is it a new cancer diagnosis? She goes, oh, honey. She’s like, I lost I lost my son. I lost my husband. This is nothing. Right? So so much of how we are approaching grief and loss in our life stems from all that we have experienced up until that point. You know, you mentioned childhood trauma and abuse earlier. In some ways, I think that has a huge impact onto how we grieve and to the resilience that we’re bringing into this work. So all that to say it is gonna look a little different for everyone in terms of recommendations that I would give. And a lot of times when I’m dealing with people in the hospital, they are more in kind of crisis mode even if they’re saying goodbye to someone in the ICU, and they know that their loved one was going to die, you know, for a period of weeks. It’s still right when it happens. So many of my families are saying, like, it just feels like a bad dream. You know? And certainly, people that are dying due to a car accident or very sudden, violent death is people can’t even, you know, I have to walk them to the door. Like, they don’t even know where they are because it is so overwhelming in that time.
So The first piece of advice I would give is give yourself space to know that this is going to be difficult. Right? I was talking with someone who said, yeah, I really shouldn’t have gone back to work three days after this happened. Because they just felt like that was the message that they were getting was if they had to move on. I would recommend community in some form or fashion. You know, I mentioned I used to run bereavement groups. One of the benefits of COVID is now there’s so many of these groups meeting online. Many that didn’t go back to in person. I mean, I like in person groups as well, but I think that helps people who, you know, may not have a local group or maybe too hard, you know, to get out to a group in person. And even, you know, people speak ill of social media on lots of different levels, but it there has been such community building around that. I know there’s there’s Facebook groups for everything under the sun and that helps people to have a sense of community and really normalizing. What they’re going through in a powerful way. And for people that are wanting to explore more of the spiritual themes of what’s going on for them, you know, if they have a faith background or religion that they have a community that they can be a part of. Certainly, that would be a place where I would encourage them to reach out or even if they’re thinking about joining one. Most people don’t. I see a lot of people that are more, you know, spiritual, not religious. And that’s where I would say engaging someone who can walk that path with you might be helpful like a spiritual director. So that’s a training that I wound up doing because I missed people stories when they left the hospital. I was there for that crisis, but I wanted to walk with people longer. And so, spiritual directors international or s d I dot org has a whole directory of spiritual directors that you can Some are online only, some are in person. You can filter by any religious denomination or meet with people that are of had not a religious affiliation whatsoever. And that is usually a helpful resource for people because it’s so individualized. As much as I love faith communities and congregations. Sometimes it can be hard to really sit with what is going on for your own particular spiritual self in this moment, especially in the mid of grief or like I talked about before that dark night of the soul. So this can really give you that individualized focus.
Victoria Volk: What does your healing look like? You know, when we say you have to do the work? Mhmm. And the for me, the word was the grief recovery method, which I walk people through in my program do grief differently, which is a twelve week one to one program, and then I also do groups as well. Mhmm. What did it look like for you?
Christine Davies: Oh, what it’s still going on? It’s always We’re always in it. Right.
Speaker 2: And sometimes, you know, I sent to my therapist not so long.
Christine Davies: I was like, I thought I was over this by now. Like, how many years has this been? And I’m like, no. No. No. Like, Our stuff is always our stuff, and it’s always gonna move with us and and shape us. A couple of things that stood out for me. I mean, one was getting to lament to god and and engage in that anger. You know, I remember it was during that time I discovered the there’s a lot of cursing songs in the bible, so those were very helpful to me at that particular juncture. I I engaged some therapists, some that were fantastic, some that were not so good. Same thing with support groups. And so that’s the other piece of advice I give to people, like, you know, reach out to others, and if it’s not a fit, it’s not a fit, just keep reaching out, which can be hard to do when you’re in the throes of grief. But, yes, talking to people who understood it. For me, some of it was also writing about it, and so I do write a lot. I have a newsletter on my website and I’ve written about in detail about some of my pregnancy loss as well as more general stories from the hospital. So for me that was helpful to really articulate it for myself and the blessings of it. It took me a while. I couldn’t write it about it for a while at first, but I went back to it later. And then the other piece of advice that I get people that helped me as well and I’m continuing to see how this unfolds my own life is that there’s a physicality to grief and loss. It does reside. In our body. And, you know, I I love all the research that’s out there now about trauma in the body and just how true I’m finding that. And so for me, it’s about how do I engage with that for myself. So whether it’s you know, through massage or I I know you’re a rate key practitioner. That’s something I picked up a little while ago and loved or, you know, using yoga or just being in my body and healing from that perspective. It can’t just all be, you know, this talk therapy. That has been true in my own life, and I suspect it may be the case for others as well.
Victoria Volk: I’m a certified bio field tuning practitioner, which is using tuning forks. And field extends file.
Christine Davies: No. I’ve not done that yet. Oh.
Speaker 2: We’ll talk after this.
Christine Davies: I
Victoria Volk: actually prefer that to rate you. Actually, I I incorporate elements of both in my Okay. In my practice with clients, but it, you know, our energy field extends five to six feet out and our energy field informs the body and our body informs our energy field. And so it really is what you’re feeling in here is what you are putting out energetically. It really is a reflection of what you’re feeling in here. And so it’s like, when I see people, like, just in church, for example, I can always tell who is got a lot of maybe anxious energy, tense, stress because people will do this. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Was just putting their arms up here shouldn’t change their shoulder dropping, but it’s still just just like this.
Christine Davies: I think that’s all of us in some ways. Like, we’re all whole Yeah. So much. And just not even breathing, you know, fully with our diaphragm. So it’s just Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know, bringing attention to that. Right? And why am I why am I feeling in holding this here? And so that’s what I help people work through and what’s beautiful about biofuel tuning is that you don’t have to talk about it. The work happens as I’m working through your energy field, but it’s just been a beautiful thing to be able to add that into my grief work with clients and then also it’s often how people come into grief work because they realize they have a lot of stuff they are holding on to and feeling
Christine Davies: like mhmm. Oh, I think that’s a beautiful practice and such a gift to give people.
Victoria Volk: Is it becoming more common to do you find in the hospital that you’re working in that they are starting to offer more of these other modalities while people maybe are in intensive care or, you know, because you have you can’t just offer someone energy healing without their permission.
Christine Davies: So Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Not that caveat, but
Christine Davies: I wish. Not that I’ve seen I wish it would impact some hospitals maybe, but I’m always writing alouds for. We need a whole integrated, you know, spirituality department that is, you know, bringing in other things And actually, I wind up getting my my rate key achievements because during COVID, we were using oh, we our oncology floors would use volunteers for to come in and do rate key. But then during COVID, the volunteers couldn’t come in. And one day, I had a nurse on the phone calling our office. Do you know anyone that can do this? Like, one of my one of my patients is desperate for it. Oh, okay. No, I have to go, you know, get that, at least for an emergency basis. I don’t do it ongoing for for patients, but now I think that is something that, you know, again, I work in healthcare.
It pays my bills, but I do think that we sometimes miss out on the opportunities for holistic healing. Again, there are some hospitals out there doing a great job of it. And some of the realities within our healthcare system in the United States anyway is the ways in which it becomes about what a billable practice is and not, and insurance. And even Chaplin’s, we’re not a billable practice. So there’s some hospitals that don’t have chaplains, even though one could argue that they are required to buy different commissions that accredit hospitals, but it’s really up to interpretation. You know, sometimes people are just calling local ministers to come in and do something versus individuals who are trained and have a department for that. So I think we have a long way to go, but my hope is that we will go more in that direction.
Victoria Volk: What did your rate key attunement in your training open up for you in terms of understanding that But, yeah, there might be a little bit of a blurred line between spirituality and energetics of grief and and all of that because, you know, some people might, especially who are in certain, maybe religious affiliations might look at it, like, it’s some sort of voodoo
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Witcher. So, yes. Yeah. And I don’t talk a whole lot about it just because I know that that is the case. And and I am pretty if if your listeners have been told been able to tell thus far, I’m pretty progressive as far as the president ministers go, and that is something that has been such a helpful practice for for myself. And so I don’t I don’t widely offer it to others. But the way that I understand it from that perspective is, you know, this is about and sometimes I’ll do some interpretation. But, like, for me, this is about the holy spirit. Or this is about me getting more in touch with, you know, godsend dwelling inside me is how I I like to envision it. And it’s funny because a lot of what Ricky had helped me to do was to become a better meditator. You know, I try doing meditation for so long, and then Ricky as well as learning more about some of the Christian meditation practices that are out there. And so that helped me. I’m like, even if I get no physical benefits from it whatsoever, I knew I was getting that emotional and spiritual benefit just because I was caring for myself. I was, you know, slowing myself down and being more attuned to god’s presence in my life. But I will say, yes, there are a lot of people out there. I get accused of, you know, witchcraft or pulling in things like the enneagram to my teaching and and I understand. Otheragram too. And other modalities. Because to me, I’m like, why are we not using these tools that are out here? And it’s it’s a better intention. What is our intention in using them? Is it to for me, it’s to become more attuned. To god in my life and and how I’m caring for others. So I don’t know that I answered your question. I got a little bit of a a a a sidetrack with it, but
Victoria Volk: no. It it did. Because that I’d asked how did what did it unlock for you?
Christine Davies: Mhmm. We
Victoria Volk: just helped you more of self acceptance of Absolutely. Mhmm. Yeah. Of my son, he was he’s been pretty skeptical for he was for quite a while about what I do and with the tuning forks and just he didn’t quite understand it. And I said, Jim, you know what, though? I have a prayer.
Christine Davies: I don’t have I
Victoria Volk: do it’s it’s like a prayer Mhmm. For me. I don’t know. Yeah. They have a different way they do it, but I said, I have a specific prayer, you know, because he his concern was, well, who knows what you’re inviting in? Mhmm. Oh, I know what I’m inviting in because I’m bringing that intention and I’m calling it out. I’m calling it in, you know, with my intention and with my prayer. And so I had to make that clarification. And then he was like, oh, okay. That makes sense.
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Yeah. I use that prayer as well. And one of the one of my teachers for Ricky actually learned years ago from a Catholic nun in a church because that used to be I know I was shocked when she told me that because it used to be, I think a little bit more acceptance in in certain circles.
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I would say. And I think it is becoming more I think as we’re moving towards more holistic, it’s becoming more common and more understanding about it, really. You know, people more curiosity. You know Mhmm. People following their curiosity and just learning being open. That’s what I would just encourage people to do is don’t poo poo it or naysayer just because you have a lack of understanding about it or maybe question your understanding. Is this? Mhmm. Correct, you know, because we can have these beliefs that were passed down to us as children. That’s maybe not true, you know.
Christine Davies: Right. And it’s another area, and this is a lot of what I work with with my spiritual directives. There’s all sorts of spiritual practices out there. You know, for some people, journaling is something that really helps to connect with, you know, God for them. For others, it may be meditating. Right? Maybe walking in nature. You know, everyone has different ways that they’re approaching this. And, you know, sometimes I like to say, like, we almost need a smorgasbord. I mean, like, okay. What works for one person may not work for another one? Or for seasons in life as well. There may be a season where something, you know, that works for you for so long is no longer, you know, helping you in that way. And so being, as you said, being open to other practices or or trying things on and seeing if they can help you connect with yourself, with others into the divine.
Victoria Volk: One of the questions I ask is on my form and is what gives you hope for the future? And doing the work that you do and your personal experience, what does give you hope for the future? Oh, I would love to know what I said
Christine Davies: a while ago. But today, we did. No. No. No. No. You can tell me later. We’ll see if it matches up. But what gives me hope today for the future is really, you know, and and and part of what keeps me in the work that I do is seeing people’s resilience. In the face of deep suffering, you know, seeing people continue to move move through life. And sometimes with that changed meaning perspective that I talked about before, and just the depth of caring that people can then do for others. That’s a lot of what gives me hope. It’s close.
Speaker 2: Look, I can’t remember what I had for practice up. Yeah. I don’t know how you can answer a question
Christine Davies: a little while ago, but Mhmm. How
Victoria Volk: is your past experiences and and just in the in the work that you do? What you see? How is it maybe changed how you how is it influenced? How you parent? And maybe what you give more attention to in your parenting? And how you maybe talk about deaf and dying and you know, I’m I imagine that you’re open and transparent. Like, you talk about death and dying in your house maybe regularly or maybe not. I don’t know. Like, how has that informed? You’re working informed, how your parents, and all of that?
Christine Davies: Yeah. I would say, even from, like, an emotional containment part, trying to emphasize, you know, what are you feeling and that feelings are are valid. And I think that’s different than the way a lot of us grew up. You know, being told, oh, you know, I’m allowed to cry or, you know, just a a different generation. Like, my kids learn about feelings in the health class now. I’m like, oh, that’s fantastic and minor in elementary school. And so even learning to say, and I have two ways, so even learning to say, you know, it’s okay to be angry. It’s not okay to slam the door or it’s not okay to, you know, throw things all over the house when you’re angry. But what are some practices we can do? When you’re angry.
The other day I was teaching my eight year old how to do some angry yoga moves to to help him kind of settle back into himself when he was feeling out of sorts because he was mad, probably something that his brother did. So, trying to really help them to self soothe and to nurture that for themselves. And, yes, we do talk about death. I also live on a farm, so that helps because we had a lot of chickens that have been, you know, attacked by box and hawks and and things like that. And, you know, from an early age, my kids understood.
You know, this is just a part of life. This is part of the life cycle. I do remember when my older son first found out about death, I think probably due to one of our jigs dying early beyond. You know, I was explaining this happens for, you know, for everyone. And he says, you mean, you’re gonna die one day. And I said, you know, yes. I am. I hope it’s not gonna be for a while, but I am gonna die. And if it when I do, like, you’re gonna have other people around. And then he’s and then and he’s like he seemed okay with that. And then he said, wait, do you mean, I’m gonna die one day? And I said, yes. And that’s when, you know, he, you know, went into this, you know, really a new understanding and that where, like, the crying began, not when something was gonna happen to me, but recognizing his own mortality. Mhmm. And those are hard moments to endure, and I do this professionally. So I can understand my parents don’t wanna talk about it ever. Then I think we’re not preparing our kids enough to have this as part of a reality. You know, I’ve worked with people and clergy who have a lot of denial. About death even though that’s their profession. And to me, that just makes the grieving even harder when it does come because not not just are you grieving that person, but you’re grieving the fact that you never thought this would happen. Versus being open and talking about it more, I do think helps prepare us a little bit more for when it does happen.
Victoria Volk: We bring up a good point and that I can’t even tell you. I couldn’t even tell you what experience or pinpoint a time when my kids learned of their own mortality. I could not even tell you because I wasn’t doing this work then, you know, but I wouldn’t I wouldn’t even know. I wouldn’t even know when that is and that makes me sad because, you know, that’s an opportunity that’s a teachable moment, that is an opportunity. And so that’s a very good point in how how it can really shift a perspective for a child when you are have that awareness of what they’re saying and really and what they’re feeling and then how to talk through it. But if that child is having that experience and they’re not vocalizing it or asking And it’s all an inner process. You have no idea. Like Mhmm. And they come up with their own beliefs about
Christine Davies: Right. They feel like that. Wow. Absolutely. Yeah. And and and look, especially for your listeners, it is so hard. We’re all doing the best that we can. In in the present moment. And and as I said, it’s hard for me and I do this work. Right? And so there’s times where and my kids will say, like, mom, when I die, are you gonna cry?
Speaker 2: Or and what what are they gonna say
Christine Davies: in my funeral? Like, they will sometimes I
Speaker 2: really don’t wanna be having this conversation, especially as we’re driving to soccer practice,
Christine Davies: you know. And I’ve had a rough day. But to me, the importance is that we, you know, we are talking about it, and they and to them, they’re asking things that are going to be deeply emotional for me to answer, but they don’t have the same emotions attached to it. To them, it’s just like a matter of fact and how they’re thinking through things, which is, you know, developmentally appropriate. And so it is giving them space. The other recommendation that I usually give to people when they’re asking, how do you talk to kids about this? Is is to answer their questions, see what questions they have because sometimes the questions that they have are not the things that we would think, you know, to answer. So for instance, a friend of mine had their mother died and their dot and their daughter asked, they said, well, you know, what’s gonna happen to and she thought she was gonna say, like, the body or something like that. It was like this one tea cup that was in, you know, the grandmother’s China cabinet that she wanted. Like, that was it was so specific, you know, and things that people don’t even think that their kids are focused on, but that’s what they’re focused on. And so, yeah, to answer their questions. And then also, don’t give them more information than they need sometimes. And you know your children best or your grandchildren or, you know, the children in your life wherever your listeners find themselves. And so some kids are going to be able to handle things that others aren’t. I get asked a lot in the hospital, should I bring, you know, my child in to, you know, say goodbye to their loved one who’s in the ICU. Again, it’s gonna different for every kid based on developmentally what you think that they could handle. My kids tend to be a little bit immature in some ways, and so I might not do that for them in some ways, but others, you know, that may be completely appropriate And then to avoid using euphemisms, I think, is also really important because, you know, people tell me that they remember hearing when they’re a kid that you go to sleep and you don’t wake up. And then they’re afraid to go to sleep because they think that’s going to happen to them. And so really trying to say death, not lost, like we didn’t, you know, we lost something like we lost a mitten. It’s not the same thing. And so trying to be both clear, but also appropriate to their age level.
Victoria Volk: But also, I think it’s important to not make an assumption that you know their understanding, their level of understanding.
Christine Davies: Right. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: That could be very easy to Yep.
Christine Davies: Yeah. That’s why it’s good to ask them first. You know, what do you you know, do you think about this? And and they may surprise you with their answers and and how profoundly they can be? You
Victoria Volk: know, it’s like when my dad died, I even heard people say, I I hear it. It’s like clear as day, someone said, well, she’s too little. She doesn’t understand what’s going on anyway, and it’s like, I’m eight years old. If you can’t hear her eight years old, you can’t Uh-huh. Wouldn’t have known if your dad died. Mhmm. You know what I mean? So, like, just the nigh don’t be naive as an adult to think that just because you have all this life behind you that this child does not understand simply even what death is, you know.
Christine Davies: Yeah. And I think that’s what makes it doubly hard for parents because we’re holding our own grief Yes. About the death. And then trying to comfort our children in it as well. So it is an impossible task.
Victoria Volk: And that’s why I asked like Mhmm. How what that was for you and what that looked like because I think that is something but a lot of people don’t talk about either. Mhmm. Holding holding it in Nasdaq’s, generally, that does the emotional stuff does fall on us, you know, so we’re Mhmm. Carrying our stuff and then we’re caring everybody’s stuff.
Christine Davies: Right. Yeah. In just a in a day to day, even when there’s not a crisis or not a, you know, a fresh loss going on, you know, encouraging, you know, people to care for themselves is especially when they’re in a caregiving role either professionally and or personally in their lives because many of us that goes to the wayside and really trying to, you know, emphasize how much that’s needed.
Victoria Volk: So how do you decompress and care for yourself, you know, at the end of the day, and just in the work that you’re doing, and being a mom, and spouse, and, like, what does that look like for you? And overall, just to help her.
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Well, I’ll say I keep a number of people on my payroll, so that is very helpful to me. From my own therapist, my own spiritual director, my own massage therapist, all of my, you know, doctors as well. And I am people in my office are funny because they’re like, oh, you always do all of your medical appointments. I said, absolutely, I do. Like, I am there all the time because I wanna make sure I am taking care of my health. To me, that is important because of so much of what I see. But then I have people that I can turn to who know this work. And so a lot of chaplains will have or chaplains educators will have kind of a peer group that they meet with, both for consultation about difficult cases and scenarios, but then also for that support. So I have that for for chaplains. I have another one for other spiritual directors, and those have been a lifeline for me. And then I have friends who don’t do anything related to the whatsoever. And we could talk about, you know, various other things. So I think having that balance. For me, one of the things that’s important is spending time in nature. So, you know, I live on this thirty four acre, hobby farm, and there’s always something to be done. It’s mostly weeding or, you know, you know, repairing fences and things of this nature. But I find something when I’m just doing it with my hands and complete completely takes me out of my element. And I have to drive a way to a ways to get to where I live. I live a little further out from the hospital. But I actually really appreciate that time because that’s kind of my buffer. So sometimes I’m listening to a podcast like this, sometimes I’m listening to books, sometimes music, and sometimes nothing, sometimes I’m just quiet. In those moments depending on the day that I’m about to have or the day that I’ve had that helps me to transition. And then the other piece of advice that I have for others that I’ve tried to do for my own life is to be fully off you know, to go off duty so to speak. Sometimes I’ll even say that to my kids. I’ll say mom’s off duty ask dad, you know, he’s in charge for a little while. I need a little bit of time. But especially people who are working as caregivers, there can be this or just have an inclination of a caregiving mentality. You know, there can be these times where it seeps into other aspects of our life. You know, we’re at the grocery store and all of a sudden, like, helping someone there, you know, out to groceries and hearing their life story, you know, if you’re the type of person where people share things all the time, you know, like you’re at church and you you can sense people’s energies and what do you do with that? And so really trying to be purposeful about like, okay, I am not on duty here. I am not on payroll, trusting that someone else will, you know, come along and help that individual. And and sometimes I will be the one to step forward and and help, but recognizing I only have a limited amount of energy sometimes my family doesn’t get the fullness of my energy because I, you know, let it go so much at at work. So really trying to create boundaries around that for myself and keep my own my own well filled.
Victoria Volk: Well, thank you for sharing all of that because it sounds like that was a great advice for how to fill your own cup, especially as a helper, is, yeah, go off duty.
Christine Davies: Much easier said than done.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. That’s very true. Is there is there anything that you would like to share that you feel like you didn’t get a chance to? And I feel like I could we didn’t even really get into the end of life stuff. Okay. Let me just ask this. What would be the what would you like people to take away from your work and what you’ve seen about end of life. Mhmm.
Christine Davies: I think the acknowledging of the reality of it to me is is one of the major takeaways. And my guess is your audience doesn’t need to be reminded because they know this already. But, you know, just knowing, as I said before, we’re not promised tomorrow, and so living today in a way that is going to honor really the the precious gravity of our time and what you would want to say to those, you know, that you love or how you would like to act knowing that they may not always be there and you won’t always be here and letting that be a guiding force.
Victoria Volk: What I’ve learned in my training and through this work and conversations is that I think we lose a lot of time giving energy to the denial of what is happening Mhmm. In reality, what is happening because and even as a caregiver too, you can get just sucked into, you know, especially if you’re in charge of the bills and the estate stuff, and you’re you’re the one that’s appointed to be responsible for all of that. It really doesn’t give you an opportunity to process really with that.
Christine Davies: Oh my goodness. The the burden of all the logistical nature. I’m brief. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And then you don’t really it doesn’t really hit you until after it’s all said and done. And then here, you look back and it’s like all this time that you didn’t use to have those conversations and say what you need to say and, you know, just honor the loved one that you are caring for. Right? Because it’s all every conversation surround often surrounds the logistics of things rather than Mhmm. You know, what are you what are you things that, you know, you wish you would have done in your lifetime? Like, those really thoughtful questions that would give the person who is dying an opportunity to really share what has mattered to them in the meantime.
Christine Davies: Howard Bauchner: Yeah, in Chaplinci, we have an intervention that’s called life review. And I often get to engage that with other people who know, you know, that their their death is more imminent. Getting to say, you know, what what are your major choice? What what do you regret? You know, what do you wish had had been different? And sometimes when the family is present, they’re getting to hear that as well, or sometimes if the patient is unconscious and we’re, you know, maybe in the ICU, that is where an encouraging family. Again, if they want, there’s no right or wrong way to do it. To say goodbye to their loved one and they say, oh, they might not be able to hear me. So we don’t know. And, you know, surrounding their bed and talking about what they’ve meant to them. I always go back to, do you know doctor Ira Biak? He’s a palliative care physician. He wrote a book called the fourth, who’s written lots of books, but one of them is called the fourth things that matter most. And he talks about the conversations that the dying need to have. With their loved ones, but I think it’s also vice versa. And I think these conversations are the four phrases rather to say are things that we could say every day. And we often we don’t. And they’re in a certain order. I’ll say them because they’re brief. They are Please forgive me. I forgive you. Thank you, and I love you. And there’s all sorts of ways we can say those phrases. But certainly wanting to encourage people to save them at end of life, but then looking at my life and saying, okay, where can I be saying this more fully today in my own life?
Victoria Volk: Sounds like
Christine Davies: You know what I’m talking about? Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. I’m sorry. Please forgive me. And you I’m sorry. Please forgive me.
There’s yeah. There’s a few more in there.
Christine Davies: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Pono. Pono. Pono. Really long word.
Yeah. That’s beautiful. I’m glad we got that in there because I think it’s an important aspect of what the work that you do. And also, for me, as an end of life too, I feel like I don’t talk about that piece as much as I talk about the you know, the grief that people are left with after the fact. Right. You know, my dad had cancer and he was sick for I think they gave him I I think it was like four months or something. He lived sixteen months Stage four, and he died in a nursing home. And I don’t know that that’s how he would have chosen
Christine Davies: to
Victoria Volk: spend his end of days. I think that’s really what’s fueled my desire for end of life education. And Mhmm. Because I didn’t even realize that, you know, what was possible at end of life. Like, you can choose who you want to see you and who you don’t, and you can choose how you want your environment to be. And I think I would have, like, essential essential oils going and candles and, you know, my favorite music and Mhmm. Yeah. Just you can set the mood. I was like, yeah. Yeah. That’s possible. Like, you can make it what you want it to be. I just didn’t know that that was possible. And so, yeah, it’s kinda hard in a hospital, but You know what? I’m sure accommodations can be made.
Christine Davies: Yeah. Maybe not the candles, but we have battery operated candles.
Victoria Volk: Now guys, yikes, the green ones
Christine Davies: now. Exactly. I have I have one over here. And yeah. And I think families are becoming more tuned to this, you know, what is going to help us honor our loved one.
But yet, when there’s times that we can speak to that beforehand, when everyone is hale and healthy, before there’s a crisis, that I think is the most important piece.
Victoria Volk: And you can even wash your loved one.
Christine Davies: Mhmm. You
Victoria Volk: know, and some people might no way. I want no part of it.
Christine Davies: And in some religions, that’s, you know, that’s part of the the practice. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. I think it’s like Western society. We’ve so we’ve gotten so far detached and removed from the dying process. We put it in somebody else’s hands.
Christine Davies: It’s technologicalized it. Absolutely. Mhmm. Mhmm. Versus when it used to be in the home.
Victoria Volk: Yes. I mean, they would take pictures as a family with the disease. Mhmm. Like, family portraits. Yeah. Wear black for, you know, for morning. And, yeah, I think we’ve we’ve just we’ve yeah, far removed ourselves from that experience. And I think and that stents are healing too, I think.
Christine Davies: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I I think it it can be a beautiful process when the family is there. And, you know, I’ve watched as, you know, a spousal crawling to bed, you know, with the patient, you know, in in their last few moments, or, you know, I’ve been there when they’ve had, you know, Leonard Skintered Place. Yeah. That was the, you know, that would be my choice, but, you know, really trying to even though we’re in a medical eye setting and, you know, people that are home hospitals, that’s going to look a lot different, but we try to make it, you know, as peaceful of a place that represents that person as possible.
Victoria Volk: Well, where can people find you if they’d like to read some of your writings and learn connect with you online? Where can people find you?
Christine Davies: Sure. So I do write a newsletter about twice a month long form newsletter on Substack, and that’s journeying alongside. They can also find me on my website, which is my name, christine, then v davies, d a v I e s dot com. And on there, there’s a link to my newsletter, all my social media, as well as more information if people wanted to do an individual spiritual direction session. Amazing.
Victoria Volk: I will put links to all of that in the show notes. And Thank you so much for sharing your personal story today and also the work that you do, which is so needed. And I appreciate appreciate you and your time today.
Christine Davies: Well, thank you so much for having me. My luck talking with you today.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.