Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Sexual Trauma |
Katie Chonacas | Loss of Innocence & Lessons Along the Way
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Katie speaks up, for the first time publicly, about a moment that wrote on the slate of how she would show up in the world moving forward.
Follow along, as Katie shares how the very decision to speak up alone, has helped her to begin to heal years and years of emotional dis-ease. It takes an incredible amount of courage to speak about our trauma, and also, for the first time in this very public way.
As you listen, please send Katie some energetic love, and perhaps, by the end, you’ll come to the same conclusion as Katie; we can’t heal what we don’t acknowledge. And, we can’t heal what we’re unwilling to allow ourselves to feel.
Through reflecting on her life, she’s also been able to connect the dots of what happened to her, to certain behaviors and beliefs as she got older and the body of work she would create as an actress, voice-over, music creator, and artist.
It is my hope that this episode inspires courage, and also, that this message reaches teen girls and boys. As parents, we must have open communication about what “No” means, what boundaries are, how to protect oneself, the importance of a friend “buddy system,” etc. And, open communication also helps your kids know that, as their parent (or even mentor), you’re a safe person with whom to share these kinds of experiences. I’ll talk more about this in the Takeaways & Reflections episode (episode 27).
In the meantime, listen with care, and then go have a much-needed convo with your teen, if you’re a parent/mentor/guardian. And, if you haven’t established a level of trust and safety, now’s the time to start!
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Katie:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Katie Chonacas. And she will be speaking to us today about her experience being raped, and adolescent. Katie, welcome to the podcast.
Katie Chonacas 00:18
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Victoria, I appreciate you.
Victoria Volk 00:21
Thank you for being here. Introduce yourself, where are you from? How did you get to? What made you decide that you wanted to speak today?
Katie Chonacas 00:34
Sure. Um, so originally, my family is Greek. I’m from Michigan, I come from a big Greek family. And, you know, my little girl dreams and desires was always to go to California and be involved in the entertainment industry on so many different platforms. And so now I’m by Coastal, I live in Los Angeles and New York City. And because of what’s happening in the world, right now, we can literally be anywhere in the world. So I’ve actually, I drove home to Detroit. And I’m here now, for a little while, and I’ve been reflecting in It’s wild, because right now we’re in 2020. And just came to me this past week that we’re in 2020. And I left home in pursuit of those blueprints 20 years ago. So it’s a full, full circle of two decades. And now I can, you know, look at the blueprint that I designed and created look at the experiences that I’ve had thus far with travel with my career, modeling, acting music, you know, every which way and in the arts, and kind of turn over a new leaf as a young adult, and just really look at, you know, my circumstances as a child, through that lens, the journey thus far, kind of reflecting closing on that chapter, and just planting new seeds to create a new blueprint from a young adult lens with the experience that I’ve had, and, you know, forward to the next two decades.
Victoria Volk 02:06
I love how you describe that new blueprint. So, would you take us back to the first blueprint?
Katie Chonacas 02:17
Sure. Sure. Well, thank you for holding the space and having me on to share. I’ve been in isolation about it for so many years, and I’ve been in isolation, a lot of times, and I listened to some of your podcast episodes, and I love the six myths. And one is, you know, when you try to go isolate, or go to a closet, or go to your room and do it alone, and, and, you know, we’re taught these things. And, yeah, I feel like I was that as well, like, go to your room. Or if you’re, you know, your baby, or, you know, go to your room and, or you’re grounded, like you’re crying, it’s like, go to your room. And it’s like, even now, like, if I’m crying, it’s like, you know, you’re almost edited out, like, you’re crying. It’s like, God put an age on crying. You know, I’m an empath. I’m an artist, I’m very sensitive. And, yeah, so anyhow, my, my experience was, I was 14 years old, and I was in high school, I was a freshman in high school, and I was on the cross-country team, and I was at a public school, a great, you know, public school. And, and, basically, I had cross country practice. And when we had cross country practice, the boy’s locker room was to the left, and the girl’s locker room was on the right, and we, you know, we had practice at the same time. So, when we went out to run the boys were, you know, on the football field warming up, and we would be going for our warmup, and we would do our run, and we would come back. And when we’re coming back, the boys would be finishing up and then you know, we would all be in our lockers. And then, you know, after you change and take a shower, and everything, we kind of all got out at the same time. And there were the side doors to, you know, be picked up from your parents or walk home or ride a bike or however you come and go from school, right? And there was this one boy, and he fancied me and it was at the beginning of freshman year. And there was like cutesy stuff back and forth. You know, you know, you’re you’re 14 years old, and you’re like, Oh, you know, and you’re getting attention from a boy and he’s hot and he’s like, maybe the captain of the football team or in my mind, he was or, you know, that’s the fantasy of it, right? Or, I don’t know, and, and he walked me to my locker, you know, like, walk me to my locker to get something like a book or something that I needed to take home but it was, you know, to spend the moment spend the time in a safe space at a public school, right, just to go to your locker, to go through the school to get to the locker and then I Close the locker door, and he puts his varsity jacket on me. And he looked at me and he, you know, asked me to be as girl like, he wanted me to be as girl now, right? And I was just like, you know, he’s taller than me, I was looking at it. And I felt special, you know, you feel that feeling. And so, we’re walking back and the bathroom before, you know, we pass all the trophies in the lunchroom to get back to the lockers, he pushed me into the girl’s bathroom, he pushed me into the girls bathroom. And like, he just started like, you know, kissing me and groping me, and I’m just like, I’m like, whoa, and I’m just kind of like, later, like kissing him and going with it. And I’m just like, Okay, and then like, it’s like, it happened so fast, it was just like, a couple seconds. And then and then he’s and then he like, pushes me to the handicap bathroom to the last stall, which was, you know, the biggest stall, which was the handicapped bathroom. And sidebar, I feel like that’s caused a lot of psychological mental trauma on my mind, that we can discuss later if we come back around to it. But he basically just, like, pushes me on the ground, and like, starts, you know, obviously, like, just doing what he needs to do really quick. I mean, kids move fast. So it was like, it was like a fast thing. And I’m like, No, and I’m like, No, and I’m like, pushing, and he’s, like, big, and he’s a football player. Right? And he’s, like, bigger than me. So I’m, like, pushing him off me. And I’m just like, no, in my head is like hitting the concrete on, you know, on the, on the wall. And, and so like, you know, it’s like, he was just on me, I mean, it’s just like, habit, and who’s just like, then it was just, like, done, it was like, quick, and, and so like, that was it. And, and I like went home, and I was like, in so much pain, and I was bleeding. And it was like, in my upstairs bathroom, which is right here. And, you know, I’m like, in pain, right? And, and that night, it was it was a Friday it because it was the first it was the first it was the first homecoming game of my freshman year, in high school, I started off my freshman year in high school. And it was the first home game and I remember like; I must have gotten dropped off. And I was by myself. And I remember just like walking, and you pass like, you know, you arrive if you pass all the bleachers. And like all the like, popular cool kids or whatever, you know, they’re like, at the very end, like in like, the very end you like walk pack all will be reshares. And so I’m like, and then like there’s like, you know, like five or seven of my girlfriends who are like, you know, my girlfriend’s, and I’m going, and I’m like, I’m walking up and I’m walking up towards them. And there was this one girl. And they were they were they were boyfriend girlfriend, but they broke up. And, and she, she just like she just like, glared at me. She does, she does glare, she just glared at me. I was 14 years old, these were my girlfriend’s One moment. And then the next moment, none of them are my friend, they all took her side, they were all silent to me, she glared at me. And in that moment, and on that day, not only was I raped, I was taken advantage of, but I was shamed and blamed by females and I and I took it on. And I took on that responsibility of being blamed and being shamed and feeling so small and so invisible, like it was my fault. You know. And so that was, that was the beginning of my freshman year, happened on Friday. And I ended up sitting up top, because on the other, another person, they probably like, run off and cry or something, I don’t know. But like I, I just went like a couple bleachers above and, like sat there, and I just sat there, and I sat there through the whole game, but, and I remember being able to, like, sit there, but I was like, numb and just felt very paralyzed. And I feel like a lot of times I’ve been able to freeze and be in situations and just kind of like, take it you know, and just sit there and in, in whatever the abuse was and just like sit there and because I have strength and strong will and and I’m just like present in there, but it was very, you know, diminishing and, and like I said I was I was 14 years old. So, it, it was a lot. It was a lot for one person in one day that that really you know, shape shifted. Some of the choices that I’ve made and some of the behavioral patterns and some of the things of how I’ve been how I’ve been you know my life thus far.
Victoria Volk 09:56
I’m so sorry that happened to you I felt my own body tense up as you were talking. I have my own stories. This one is about yours. I’ve heard. So I just want you to know that my heart goes out to you. I know it’s a really difficult thing to navigate.
Katie Chonacas 10:40
Hmm, yeah, especially when you take it on. And like, I’m a very intense, loyal person, you know, and I’m very strong. So I’m like, oh, like, it’ll just, you know, go away, or, like, never happened and happy wasn’t there and you bury a deep, you just keep burying and deep. And when you make the choice to bury it deep, and you just keep burying it deeper and deeper. It just becomes like a habit that you do, and you think it’s like the right thing to do. And you justify that choice. Because you didn’t have someone to talk to, like you didn’t, you know, not let anyone wasn’t there like, Well, actually, what happened was, um, I had summer school that summer, so the whole year passed. And then I had summer school. And then I got my first boyfriend. And he was a senior. And because of the, the intimacy of it, obviously, I was able to share and tell him what happened. And so he and all his senior friends, they’re all like the popular guys, him and all his senior friends showed up at his house, showed up at his house with me in the car with baseball bats, and I remember his, he wouldn’t come to the door, he wouldn’t come outside, it was his mother. And it was it was his mother. And so there’s, um, you know, the town where I’m from, and there’s like, the wealthy side. And then there’s like the old side. And so he was on the old side. So, the homes were a bit smaller than the new side, you know, my dad, he designed and did the blueprint, an architect and had built our home, you know, here, my mom, and so on, on the old tracks on the old side. His mom was at the door, and I feel like he came from a broken family. So like, I mean, I didn’t know this when I was 14, but reflecting on it now, he comes from a broken family with without a dad, he, you know, had his mom, his mom was at the door, his mom was needing to deal with these seniors, with the baby with baseball bats at his door. And so, his mom very well knows what he did, right? But you would think at that state that a mom would go to the school, right? But she didn’t want her own child to be in trouble. She was suffering. She was scared. She probably couldn’t handle her own child. You know, he was troubled. And obviously he took that out on on me, right? Not only in football, but but on like me, like another. He was a child. I was a child. We were we were kids. He was he was in my grade. He was a freshman as well. abrasive and aggressive on to me, it doesn’t matter how attractive you are doesn’t matter how cute you are, you know? Like, like, no means no, you know, um, but anyway, so in the story of, you know, my boyfriend at the time when I was 14, and all his friends as senior showing up to this kid’s door. In my heart, in my mind, I felt good. I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m like, I’m like, he got what he deserved. And that’s, that’s, that’s that was that was in my mind. That was clarity in my mind. But, but now, but then, you know, recently I was thinking about, it’s like, no, no, definitely not like, the school shouldn’t know about it. This happened on school property, like the school still doesn’t know, like, the school should have known about it, you know, that that mom. Like, I mean, I was, I was too scared to tell my mom, like, imagine if I had a relationship where I would could tell one of my siblings, or I did tell my mom or, you know, I actually had a friend I could talk to instead of my friends going against me in shaming and blaming me, if I had friends who actually told a counselor told someone, or if I went and told the counselor and told someone, right, instead of taking the shame and the blame, but like, this, this conclusion of, oh, like, he got what he deserved, and there’s victory because my boyfriend at the time, you know, came in and like, you know, went to bat for me, and, and, and, like, put him in his place was also very adolescent. It was very, you know, it was child like behavior and that Mom, you know, were healthy, functional, ethical mom, right or wrong, I feel should have went to the school, you know, but like I said, you know, obviously she didn’t want her own child to get in trouble. And for it, so so that didn’t happen. And and so you He knew what he did was wrong because I’m sure his mom has given him crap for it over the years. But yeah, that’s that’s kind of what happened. And that was the only closure I had with it in the school system.
Victoria Volk 15:13
And that closure, and air quotes closure is a story, I think that repeats over and over. In situations like these, when you feel like you, like you said, are paralyzed, and don’t know who to talk to, or you don’t feel like you have someone you can talk to, or you take on the shame and the blame, right, and you try and rationalize like, Oh, you know, kissed him back or, you know, I whatever it is, right. It’s just very easy to take on the shame and the blame. And so fast forward. How did that experience shape you? Once you left Detroit and started to start a new chapter.
Katie Chonacas 16:05
We’ll fast forward even before I left Detroit, I started skipping school. I was the fastest I was the fastest runner on the cross-country team or I was top three. It was Kelly Kelly. Katie, we were the three frosh Ks that’s what we were telling us. I was on the announcements twice a week. No one cheered for me. I was in the papers twice a week, which I loved, like you know, being a go getter and being in the paper and being on the announcements. Everyone would like clap and cheer. But no one no clap for me. I was so embarrassed when they said my name because I would do so well at the races, and I was on cross country and so after that year after my freshman year I ended up dropping out of cross country I dropped not only that I dropped out of cross country and university Michigan and all these like top 10 schools were looking at me for full scholarships. I you know, my dad was a cross country runner and he turned me on to cross country running and we had like we had this special bond and we do have a special bond and I was born on his birthday and our birthdays are 1111 and but yeah, so like I dropped out of cross country I started skipping school. I became you know, just like this this person I was just like I had disassociation from school I like no interest whatsoever I knew I’m like I’m an artist, I know what I want to do I want to be an actor I want to be an entertainment so like I knew like my calling. And so I just I’m just like eff these people and I just I turned I just like just like turned off school I just decided just to like turn it off and just like go numb I would like act out I would get sent out of my class I would get sent out of one of my classes and in like third period or something in this teacher just because like they didn’t want to deal with me. I would be sent to this room where it would be people with a special disability and so it was like lose handicapped person. And this other person who was like a big bully, and he like smells really bad. And he was a bully. And I tried to I tried to bully him one time and he like he like came after me and it was so scary. And I never did again. But then I would doodle I would just be doodling and then I would get in trouble for drawing so I’m like I don’t I was always thinking like I don’t belong here. I belong in an art school. Like I don’t I don’t belong here. I’d be in trouble for doodling, and I love doodling I love I love art. So and then and then I actually it was it was so bad that you know my social life at school that I ended up leaving that school and transferring to another school in Livonia and and I it’s funny that you say how the cycle repeats itself because it’s like the exact same thing happened in a different way, the exact same thing.
Victoria Volk 19:00
And did you have support that time too?
Katie Chonacas 19:08
Well, no. But this time I was a senior there are two boys who asked me to prom, and I should have went with this one boy, I should have I should have went with this one boy, but I went with this. this other guy and Wow. It’s like,
Victoria Volk 19:32
I’m so sorry, Katie.
Katie Chonacas 19:35
Yeah, yeah, it’s wild how you are in these situations, and you just find yourself so alone and so isolated and but then you’ll have to yourself it’s like how do you put yourself in these situations? So that’s what I’m thinking is like how do you put yourself in these situations? Right? So, the second time it was during prom and I literally went to prom. With this kid, and he was the one getting the hotel room for like everyone to go back to, to party at afterwards. And so he literally, during prom, had us leave prom, to go to this hotel room, so it’d be all set up. So when everyone came afterwards, and so I didn’t want to leave, I wanted to stay with the kids, you know, they’re all like the popular kids or whatever. And I wanted obviously, I was completely insecure. And I wanted to, you know, stay and have a good time. And he had a sleeve. And he got literally literally the hotel room ready with the keg, two in the bathtub full of ice, and, and took advantage of me completely. And just, like, put himself on me, and pressured me into having sex with him. And it was just like, so quick again, like, you know, when you’re 17 or whatever, 16 of 16 it’s just just like, I don’t know, 617 Yeah, knows. Yeah. 17 I think I was always I was always like a late starter, I started I started my period late. I was, I start, everyone could drive, and I couldn’t drive because my birthday is in November. So, I like I graduated when I was 17. You know, so like, everyone else is 18. But I was 17. So maybe I was 13 actually, when I was a freshman, and that happened. Maybe I was maybe I wasn’t 14 you I was 13 because when I got a boyfriend, I was 14. So I think I was 13 actually wouldn’t wouldn’t happen because I was I was thinking I was 13 in my freshman year when it happened, this was the beginning of freshman year. So yeah, so when I was a senior, and they just like happened, and it was like done. I just felt like he was like, done with me. And like everyone showed up at the hotel room. And like everyone knew, everyone knew. And it was like, again, shame, blame. And it was just like, felt like, you know. Yeah, so that’s that’s kind of like that’s that that’s what, that’s what my high school experience was like. You know, and I don’t want to blame anyone or myself. But I definitely took on a lot of shame. And now as you know, as a young adult, I just look at look at it. Like if I were talking to a friend, which I do in the mirror, I’m supportive and positive for everyone else, they just hold space for myself just to be positive for myself and Haley. You know, you’re a good kid, you’re a smart kid, like, you come from a good family, and everyone has their stuff, you know, but there wasn’t drinking in my house, there wasn’t drugs. There was an infidelity in my home you know, but but, you know, like, I have three siblings come from a big Greek family and you know, you go to school and it’s a whole different story at school, you know? Yeah, there’s ways to you know, that’s why community is so important. building communities and and having open communication and practicing open communication and no matter what it is to be able to, you know, hold space and let people know like I won’t judge you. I don’t blame you. I don’t shame you. You know, all these things I’ve learned and I practice along the way and you know, I practice them with others and I practice with myself and I just come to realize that it’s important to do those things and to keep doing those things.
Victoria Volk 23:54
You mean obviously you didn’t feel like you could talk to your parents? Despite having good role models and good examples and good family life? Where do you think that disconnect was? We couldn’t talk to them or I was just gonna say I think when when we take on that shame and blame I think that’s a lot of what keeps us silent. Right?
Katie Chonacas 24:34
Yeah, I mean, that that shame and blame definitely kept me silent and definitely kept me restricted. But um, you know, every family does have their issues and and based on, you know, how my mom was raised in her circumstances. She hasn’t been a person, I could go to Intel things and she, I don’t think she had the the message Until bandwidth to deal with it. And I thought probably I would get into trouble. But, you know, like, when I was younger, I’d always like, talk to my mom, it was like, really difficult and share things. But when I would talk to her, it was like peeling an onion. And I would do one layer that gets really excited. And on a psychological level, I would like, you know, like chess, like, do do different layers of like talking to my mom. And right when I got to this, when I would get to like the second layer and start to peel it, it was like, she got like a tear, or showed any sign of vulnerability, she would just put her shield back up and, like, go to your room, or, like, that’s enough, Katie, you know, and like she couldn’t, couldn’t handle them anymore. You know, crying to her is weak, not not a strength. You know, she didn’t have her parents she could talk to, I would be sent to my room are told to stop crying, if that gives you any frame of reference of being able to be vulnerable, so it wasn’t advocated in my life with with my mom.
Victoria Volk 26:11
It wasn’t neither in mind. And that cycle repeats. And that’s why I’m so passionate about helping children with loss program that, that I facilitate, because it breaks that cycle, once we learn as parents, how to be hurt with the IRS, where our kids potentially could change the trajectory of their lives. Because, you know, had you been able to talk to your mom, or she was that safe space for you? You can’t unknow it, once you know it. So what do you what are you going to do about it? Right?
Katie Chonacas 26:52
Yeah, I think that’s where, like a lot of my anger came from. And then so I think some of that’s where some of my blame came from, like some of my anger towards my mom, or maybe towards my dad, like, maybe some of my anger came from, and I was blaming, but like, I hadn’t, but that’s also where my compassion came from, because I don’t blame them. Because I wouldn’t in this world if it weren’t for them. And they, they didn’t know how, like, you know, my mom didn’t know how, like, because her parents didn’t know how, but at a very young age, I decided I was going to put myself and my life first and appreciate this God given life to me and fully live it and understand it as much as possible before gifting life to another. So in the sense of my career, my my different individual aspects of my career, those have been my babies, and I’ve been nurturing them, and in nurturing my life and my relationships. And those have been my babies. And then I decided I wanted to have children later on in life. So I have never been married, and I don’t have children, and God willing, I will. But now that I’ve been through what I’ve been through and really know myself more, I feel like I’m able to break the pattern that you’re talking about and and have vulnerability and compassion and open communication. And you know, the Greeks say communication is key, you know, like, communication is key. And I was always raised going places, my mom saying, you know, going to a family member’s house or going to someone’s house? Oh, don’t tell him anything about her family? Or like don’t don’t say anything. Like don’t don’t say anything. So we were always tell like, Oh, don’t say this. Don’t say that. So, it’s like, you know what I mean? Like, it gives mixed messages for children. It’s very, very confusing and difficult. So, me, I’m just like, up. And I’m just like an open book. So, it’s like, you know, but I mean, obviously, there’s certain things you say and don’t say, but when it comes to the home, I feel like communication is needs, it needs to be transparent, completely. So that’s really cool that you have that program.
Victoria Volk 28:48
So, what, where do you go from here?
Katie Chonacas 28:52
Well, you’re the first person I’ve spoken to about this on a platform. And it mustered up a lot of courage within me to do so. So I, where I go from here is keep taking these huge leaps and steps in speaking out loud, you know, to be a ripple effect. So other people could hear my story and learn from what I’ve been through and maybe identify with it. And so it’s important, I feel to, you know, speak on it, not all the time, but definitely speak on it because if I don’t, and I kind of think this would apply to all human beings, that it has power over you and it takes it takes over and it’s like a it’s like a blanket like just like, engulfing on on you and you’re like not able to breathe and see clearly and it’s just so dark and it’s such a lonely place. And So, I just don’t want to feel that way, you know, I just, I just don’t want to feel that way at all. And I don’t want another to feel that way. So, um, you know, I just, I’m just like, it’s like chipping away, you know, with like an ice pack and just chipping away to, to not not have it not let it have any control over me. And also, another thing that I do is that I’ve done and that I do, as a human being, I take all of it, and I apply it to my work, I put it into my actor, I put it into TV, I put it into film, I put it into my drawings, into my paintings, I put it into my poetry, you know, so I take it, and I apply it to art, you know, because that’s what life is for me. So when I feel like, you know, those are healthy things that I can do with the circumstances that were given to me, and I don’t want to justify or compare my circumstances, my circumstances, somebody else’s, because I know we all have different circumstances. So there’s physical circumstances, which is bloody and gory, and, you know, but then there’s psychological mental circumstances, you know, like a spiritual war, psychological war, and mental health that is just as gory and bad as a physical and in a blood that you see, you know, so mine’s more of the invisible patterns and the invisible energies that you think you can’t see. But you really can see, and you definitely feel them. You know, energy is just energy emotions. So breaking down old negative patterns, and calling them out, identifying with them, and replacing them with nourishment and positive patterns.
Victoria Volk 31:59
It’s rewiring. It’s a rewiring of our brains.
Katie Chonacas 32:03
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, we have 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day, 90% of those thoughts have the same thoughts, right? So what are we thinking about? And so, like this, one thing that we’re speaking on, is very, very deep rooted on so many ways. So to be able to speak upon it, and, you know, apply new language, new, new words, new, new things, I feel is Ultimately, the goal, right? So, when it when, when it when you’re in an ocean wave, and they cycle and they circle back around, and you hit that iceberg, it’s not as you know, detrimental. Hopefully, we can iron out in and keep forgiving, and take responsibility. And hopefully, it won’t feel as bad or hurt as much.
Victoria Volk 33:00
Those of you listening to this, just energetically, I would just want you to send Katie some love. Because I know this was not easy for you. It wasn’t even easy for me to hear. I’m being honest. Because there’s a lot I haven’t spoken up. But it just really honestly came to light this year. And so I’m still unpacking all of that. You give me courage. This is such a message to for parents to hear. I have a 13 year old actually, she’s going to be 14 she has a countdown going on when she’s turning 14 and I’m terrified.
Katie Chonacas 33:40
Yeah, she’s 12. And so, I want to like same, right, but it’s like, also, I want to be careful not to hold that worry. And that terrifying energy because I want to hold light and space and excitement for them, you know, to, you know, to not to not have that energy, vibration be so low. I want to be mindful of that. But also I want to be like, mindful of how I can approach her and mindful of how I can share with her in a healthy way. Certain things you know, to be able to have that communication. And it’s like with what’s happened and being in the world. You would think one would know how to approach those kinds of things, right? But when it’s your child or a child there is it’s it’s not easy to you know, have that conversation.
Victoria Volk 34:31
Well, a new resort to what you know. And thank the Lord that I discovered grief recovery because and Reiki because together they have definitely opened up my eyes and helped me to peel back the layers of myself and made me a better parent.
Katie Chonacas 34:54
I’m attuned to level two, what level are you attuned to? Did you do the master two for?
Victoria Volk 34:59
I’m a master.
Katie Chonacas 35:00
Oh cool. What number?
Victoria Volk 35:01
Yeah, I’m not sure. Well, I’m a Reiki Master, and I’m going to be doing my Corona in a couple of weeks. Reno holy fire. I’m gonna Sui holy fire Reiki Master is the Sui lineage. I know there’s several different lineages there’s many lineages.
Katie Chonacas 35:21
Wow, me first time I’ve heard of that.
Victoria Volk 35:25
Yeah. And it’s it’s changed my perspective on energy for sure, really opened my eyes. And it’s been brought me a lot of healing actually to, in conjunction with grief recovery. And sort of circle back, you know, with what you shared today and with the audience. And it’s just so important that we recognize that, when something like this were to happen, whether kids or with ourselves, we resort to what we know. And I just want to say that there are new tools, and there are tools out there, and new knowledge that we can acquire, to better serve ourselves and our children and our communities and things like that. And so I’m just so grateful that I found that.
Katie Chonacas 36:23
What are some great that you found useful? The new resources?
Victoria Volk 36:29
The grief recovery method itself to process because you can utilize that for the relationship to the person who abused you, you can utilize that for the relationship that you have to your body, to yourself to your inner child. You can utilize the method to money, actually, your relationship with money is just very versatile. And I’ve applied it in many ways in my life.
Katie Chonacas 37:03
How do you find the program?
Victoria Volk 37:06
Google?
Katie Chonacas 37:07
Okay, okay. Is it in North Dakota that you did the program?
Victoria Volk 37:11
No, it’s actually online. You can find it online, the grief recovery method, it’s online, but I got certified in the method in Austin, Texas. March of last year.
Katie Chonacas 37:25
I was I will, I’ve always wanted to go to Austin, Texas, I haven’t been there yet. I always went a few times for South by South South by Southwest but cool, that’s it’s so great that you went through the program. That’s why I felt like really safe in trusting to speak with you on this topic. Because you’ve, you know, been in the program and you’ve, you know, how to hold space, and I just felt like it would be a really, you know, good safe space to be able to share, you know, for grieving voices.
Victoria Volk 37:57
Thank you for that. Yeah, and that is my goal. That is my goal, to be a heart with yours. So, I, as I mentioned, you know, as we talked about, I discovered the grief recovery method and, and Reiki that’s greatly helped me heal back the layers of my trauma and grief and all of that. And you mentioned that you’ve been basically channeling it into your art, what you experienced into your art and the work that you do. What are your goals for your art? And do you how do you plan now that we you’ve kind of started to speak out about this? How do you feel about it moving forward? And you know, is is advocacy something that you’re interested in?
Katie Chonacas 38:57
Definitely, I definitely want to be an advocate. I definitely am I feel very raw and vulnerable. When I first identified with it, I think it was like in 2016 when I saw this film girl on the edge of the sag foundation in Los Angeles you know when when the lead actor at the end, you know, she picked up her little rock and it said rip on it said rape on it. It really struck home with me and I connected with the director and I was so moved by it that I wrote an article on the Huffington Post and actually was so raw and real, that the Huffington Post didn’t publish it. I had to edit it down and make it more tailored. So, so it’s it’s published now but I’m not sure if it’s because I was. I’m not a doctor, like, you know, a PhD to speak on this topic or if it was just like too much of the time, but I was able to publish that article. And I was very, it felt really like you know, when something first happens, it’s like that raw feeling where it’s like really fresh, like wounded and very vulnerable. So, I felt that for a while, and that was in it was in December I remember and then and then I in May I went to lightning in a bottle. And I was driving with a healer during lightning in a bottle this week Music Festival he had, he did this like ocean thing, where I put the person and the situation into an ocean bottle, and it just got smaller and smaller. And I kept going away. And I was just like, it was a huge music festival with like, you know, 15,000 people there. So I was like, rah, rah. And I was like screaming and crying and just really letting it out. And I felt like I did, I felt like I did, and I did, I had like, a big release about it. And then and then 2017 happened at 19 I kind of went through life and things were still like, you know, kind of like, confusing and foggy. And then the obscene documentary came out. And I was very I like, wanted to see it, but I was hesitant to see it. And I was I had the resistance, but then it was during, it was like right when 2020 during the lockdown, right when the riots were just happening. And literally, I it was a Thursday and I sat down. And I watched for all four episodes in a row. And afterwards, I was just stone cold, like buzzing and numb. And I was up till like, six, seven in the morning, I couldn’t sleep I was just up. And it’s like, all these pieces of like, all these years, it was all these pieces just like came together where I thought they like came together before but now they came together, and it was like it was the clearest they could ever be. It all came together. And it was it was like mapped out and I and I just watched my choices from being 14 up until now in my life of all the choices that I made with, with with males and male partners. And, and circumstances and situations and invitations and, and I when the whole me to movement came out a few years ago, but like i was i was like I was I was noticing the way I didn’t talk to anyone about it. But I was noticing the way I was reacting to it inside I was very like judgmental I was very like I was there was there was a voice in there. It’s like I want to share there’s a voice in there where I wanted to post something, or I want to do a hashtag Me too. But then that then the next thought was like Oh, those those girls just want attention or someone’s just gonna think they want attention or, or, um I don’t want to be a part of this because that’s like, oh I’m like one of the herd or one of the sheep but I’m so like, I’m judging them. I’m judging me. Like and being a part of that I’m judging so I’m doing a lot of judging here. And me two things happening. It just it’s just keeps happening. It just keeps going on it just keeps cycling back up and and I continue to stay silent. I continue to judge I continue to you know, say something to myself about it, but not to anyone else. But the buried deep down and some like because I disassociate. I’m like, Oh, that’s not me. Like I justified Oh, that’s not mean that that’s them. That’s not me, right? That was the justification for it. And then I saw this obscene documentary. And I watched it. And the first woman and her sister from their experience, and they went to the police in the FBI and said something off of that experience. I was like, holy crap, this is like, this is like nothing compared to what I’ve seen and what I’ve been through. I’m like, if this person is saying it, like, how unhealthy Am I how unhealthy is this situation that I’ve been justifying, because of this is a this small the situation but they went, you know, I was like, Oh my God. And then I went on to watch, you know, the, the, the four series, the documentary in LA looking and hearing all these other girls stories. And because of these other girls that had a broken family, or they didn’t have a mom, or they didn’t have a dad, or they were into drugs, or they were they were like drinking or, or didn’t have parents or they dropped out of school, they or whatever. It’s like, Oh, I didn’t I didn’t have i would i was justifying this whole lot. I didn’t I didn’t do cocaine. I didn’t do drugs. I didn’t have parents who did drugs. I don’t my mom’s here. My dad’s here. They’re here. Like, I don’t have like stepfathers and people coming and going, I wasn’t sexually abused, like, you know, by a parent, like this didn’t happen to me. So I would, I would. I went on in life. And I would be on these private yachts in the south of France. I would be, you know, with these multimillionaires and multi billionaires. And I would be going, you know, I would be having lunches and dinners and, you know, like, I’m like, oh, that, you know, they would tell me how smart I am and how pretty I am. They would tell me how gorgeous I was and how smart I was. And I felt so special. And I’m like yeah, obviously. Of course, I’m beautiful. Of course, I’m gorgeous. Of course, you want to be around me because all this in that although I’m not going to have sex. I’m not going to let you touch me, I’m not going to do anything with you. But allow, I’ll allow you to buy me dinner, I’ll allow you to buy me lunch, I’ll accept the invitation to go on a private jet, and to go on yachts and to have these experiences all over the world. And I’m, I’m the one, you know, having a good old time on your dime. And I’m seeing the world and I’m doing all these like cool things. But you’re not, you’re extending an invitation to me, but you’re not, I’m not sleeping with you, I’m not sleeping in the same boat with you With you, I have my own. I have my own bedroom, I have I have so so I would justify, I’d be like, but but then you’re watching the documentary. And they’re telling the girls how special they are, how, how smart they are, but then they take it to the next level. And they abuse them sexually. But I justified it, I’m like, Oh, that’s not me. Because I don’t allow them to touch me. But know that you know what I am, I am the same situation I am the same. It is me too. I am in the same category because because these girls who are you know, doing the drugs or you know, doing the whatever they want the the sexual stuff that I’m not doing. I’m just like one of the girls, I’m just one of the pretty girls where it’s like, they just, you know, some of them, they just like to have like, you know, five to 10 girls around, right? They just like to have like all these eye candies around. And so for them, even though what’s them paying for a meal or, or paying for a flight or having me go here or there. They just like having the entourage of females around, right? Not that I went to like too many things where there’s like entourage as a females. But I have been in situations where there’s been, you know, more than one girl there. And although I wasn’t doing anything, and they were I felt like oh, I was like scamming them or I got away. But no, I was under the victim umbrella. And I was justifying my own circumstances under that umbrella. And I was like, Oh my god, that’s so unhealthy. And by seeing that documentary, obscene, I was like, Oh, I am me, too, it is a me too thing. And I felt like the shackles come off, I felt the shield. Come down, you know, and I had a lot of deep sadness for myself, I had a lot of deep sadness for myself, because this whole entire time, you know, growing up in California, and being around all these different people, and events and parties, in LA, and New York, and Paris, and London and around the world. And it wasn’t all that but it was it was in there. It wasn’t all that it was but it was intertwined. It was inter woven, you know, and I just I kept this like thread, it was like this thread of, through my life. And I know we all have different threads we carry around. But this this one thread, I feel stems from that experience from when I was 14, you know, and I took on the shame I took on the blame, I took on the pressure I took on those things, I took on those things, although I protected myself and I’m, you know, one with God, and I have my faith and my morals and my values. And I wanted to experience, you know, all these materialistic fantasizing fun things, without the cost of giving up my sexual identity, right. And also being taken advantage of, I was already closed off, like, no one could get past there, I was like, closed off, like, it’s not happening, you know, and it just, it just wouldn’t happen, you know, it just, it just went in, you know, a lot of times, because I was tough, and strict and strong in these ways of my personality, but also my morals and my values. I also feel like some of that closed off, because I made the choice not to let anyone in because I something was taken for me because like No means no beat, but because it was taken from me. So maybe it when it happened in my young adult life, you know, going through my 20s you know, in California and around the world and stuff, maybe that also gave me a internal strength and a build on to where I wasn’t gonna let anyone prey on me, you know, because I knew what it felt like already. So these other girls in life, who have their own experiences, you know, I’m watching them in the documentary. And it happened, you know, many times over and over. And I was always just like, oh, they’re so weak, like before the document, right? Like, all those girls are weak, they have no morals, they have no values to allow those kinds of things, I would justify it, you know, and just say something like, oh, they’re doing Coke, they’re doing an A bowl of coke or something like that, you know, they’re, they’re just, you know, having sex for money or something like that, you know, and I would, I would judge them, I would, I would judge them. And when you’re judging others, you’re only really judging yourself, you know. And like I said, I felt like I had one up over them, like I was better than them because I didn’t allow that repeated abuse going over and over. But it was it was still abuse on a psychological level. And it was just unhealthy patterns, just to be a part of right when I could have been in a relationship with somebody when it could have been around real friends, real friends, and not people who aren’t your friends, you know. So, I was really, really frustrated. And angered and really mad at myself for not building up healthier friendships and communities earlier on. I do now, I’m grateful that I have them now. And I’m developing them. But of course, you’re always wondering like, Oh, you know, what if that didn’t happen, or what if I wasn’t a part of those things, thinking I had to be a part of those things to, to make certain things happen, you know, from my own limiting beliefs and isolation of not communicating and, and sharing, you know, unhealthy, unhealthy thoughts and beliefs come up.
Victoria Volk 50:43
Well, and the one thing that when you’re sharing that what came up for me is, I remember back to when you said, when you first saw your girlfriends after that happened, and they pretty much just dismissed you, and shamed you and judged you and kind of cut you off, right? And so these girls, then later in life, you know, it’s get them before they can get me.
Katie Chonacas 51:15
Well also, growing up, um, you know, my mom, she really did coax us with, like, how beautiful we were, you know, how she was very nurturing with like taking care of our hygiene and using lotions, and taking care of our bodily tumbles. And so, I always grew up knowing I was beautiful, you know, like, and my sister was gorgeous, too. And she is and so I went to school thinking like every I was complimenting all these girls. And I was like, oh, you’re so gorgeous, you’re so pretty, like I love your hair, I love your eyes. And I would always be very complimentary of what like someone was wearing or how they looked or something like that, just because it’s like, in my friendly nature, personality. But I thought everyone was beautiful. Like, like the bat, like, like your hand. Like, you know, you’ve a front and a back. Like, I just thought everyone was gorgeous. Like, that’s how I was trained. That’s how I was I was taught growing up. And so, a lot of times, girls, they’re so insecure, and with my like voice and my bold personality. They, I guess I they, I would make them feel small or insecure because they would shy away from me. Or maybe they thought like I was being fake about it. Or maybe they didn’t think I was being authentic, right. And so sometimes I had girlfriends, but then as soon as they got a boyfriend, they would stop being my friend. And I remember some of my teachers this one teacher when I was a freshman in college, I ended up getting a full scholarship for cross country running. But when I stopped running and then came back to it was like the comeback queen. But that’s that’s another story if you want to hear about it, but I ended up getting back into running because of my dad and I went for it. And I remember one of my teachers, she sat me down, and she said, Listen, like you’re you’re so beautiful. You’re like you’re so attractive. And she’s like and you’re smart. And you know I’m with my voice she said you know she sat me down and told me that a lot of girls are going to be jealous of me. A lot of girls are going to be the way that they were cuz she saw how they were in school to me, they were so mean to me, they were so mean to me. I’m so in addition to being taken advantage of, you know, and having my virginity taken away from me without my consent, in addition to all that, with the blame and the shame, with also just like being like a, like a beautiful human being the kids are very cruel. So, so then so then it’s a lot, right? It’s like there’s this layer and this layer and there’s this situation, this situation and then when they all come together, how do you spread it out to know what, what, what is what? You know, it’s a lot. It’s definitely a lot. And I started remember growing, also growing up in entertainment. One of my best friends, he’s so cool. J Logan horn. He took me to his friend’s birthday dinner, and I knew about his one friend and I like I really like idolized her and I admired her. And it was her birthday and he brought me to dinner with her and her name is Jessica Stam. She’s gorgeous. She’s from Canada, and she’s beautiful model. And we went to this dinner and she’s younger than me. But the way she was with me, she was so graceful and kind and she looked at me as her equal and like she was like edgy and cool. And we became like friends instantly. And we’ve been friends ever since. And she’s younger than me and she’s quote unquote more successful than me, right? I mean, success is, you know, measured, right? So but in my eyes of wanting a role model because at a young age, I’ve always wanted role models and for an interpersonal female feminine divine relationship. That was really For me, I remember when I met her, and she was younger than me, and I looked up to her. And she was so because she was so successful and like, in her career, she didn’t even though I was gorgeous, you know, and bold and loud, like she could had space to celebrate me and to honor me and, and she wasn’t jealous of me and she wasn’t cutting and looking down to me. And it was really nice to identify and get with someone who was who was like a mirror reflection of how I was for others, right. And it took a long time for me to, to meet someone like her. And, and she’s very special and, and I admire her greatly. And she kind of gave me a new hope of confidence of what it could be like to, you know, keep the faith and keep being how I was and, and, and since then I’ve met a lot of beautiful, empowering beautiful women and gems along the way. And I deepen my relationship with the divine feminine and have real true relationships with females. So that’s, that’s a part of it all, too, you know.
Victoria Volk 56:05
A lot of ripples want to experience. And that’s just, that’s a very good example of ripples of how we can have one experience and how it just transcends time, and writes on who we are, and how we present ourselves to the world. And once we recognize and have a certain level of awareness, it’s kind of rediscovering ourselves again.
Katie Chonacas 56:33
And it’s like, the way that I always was, that’s how I wanted, like all my girlfriends to be, that’s how I wanted to be with all my girlfriends, you know, and to truly be a man, but with, with how I with how I grew up, and you know, you know, we’re kids, like, I didn’t grow up, you know, as a child in LA, where there are people who have careers already, right. So, like, I’m growing up in Michigan, so people are still, you know, kids and go into school and what have you. So, I understand, I understand that it took time for me to meet a match of mine, who was at the level where I was at, in regards to women empowerment, and the strength. One has for, you know, being being a human, and being that voice for others. We are who we are, and sometimes it gets covered in some luck, right? But then once in a while a gem comes around like Jessica and it just like it just it’s a mirror reflection that remind you of who you are. And in you being your best self and, and, you know, knowing that maybe you’ve had some like lonely times, and then roads. You know, it’s very, obviously intimate and raw. And I don’t even think she understands the level of impact it’s had for me, and how special Our friendship is, but it really is and, and so I continue to be that for others because it’s who I am. And, and like I said, I’ve met females along the way, Tish Hicks who has the vo dojo, who’s you know, a pioneer in voiceover, Randy Thomas, who was the first female disc jockey. And she paved the way for women in voiceovers. She’s the voice of ABC nightline. She’s the first woman anchor, you know, she was the first female disc jockey. She’s the first woman anchor, she’s been the voice of the Oscars for 10 times. Total she’s been the voice of the Tonys for 21 years in a row. And she’s my friend and she’s my role model and mentor and, you know, I’m like her spiritual daughter, she’s like, my, she’s like my spiritual mom. And so I’ve met these beautiful women along the way who are successful, and, you know, proud to call me their friend, and I’m honored to have them on my journey. And they support me, you know, speaking, what I do what what comes up for me, and they hold space for me, and I honor them. And it’s like, with everything that’s happened, it’s, I feel like I appreciate it even more in the relationship is even more juicy. Or, you know, because I’ve been through the hardships and they know what it’s like, because we all have our, our own hardships, you know, and I know I have the strength and the determination to be there for them if and when they need me. And I feel like that’s what you know, the journey is about being showing up and being there for one another.
Victoria Volk 59:34
A lot of great messages today. For parents, thank you for sharing your story, your grieving voice for the first time. And I’m honored that you felt safe sharing it with me.
Katie Chonacas 59:50
My pleasure, my pleasure. You know, I write poetry as well. And I haven’t even written about this in my poetry because it’s so isolating and so Scary that I’ve been even scared to write it down, like even even in poetry. So maybe in the near future, you’ll be able to read some of my poetry as I’m being more open about this. And I make music under the sophisticated psychos. And the music’s really cool. And so I put the emotion and things into music. There hasn’t been too many lyrics on this topic. But it’s food for thought, in this moment that maybe there’ll be songs in the future. Because I do spoken word poetry as well. Maybe I’ll create a piece where you know, I talk on this topic in a poetic kind of way to share and educate and be a ripple effect for others. To meditate on that some more, it’ll come to me but I do make coming from Detroit in the underground music scene. I do make beats and all the musics available on all streaming platforms, I actually have an EP coming out October 20. It’s in a few weeks here and I leaked a couple of my own music videos on YouTube. It’s on the sophisticated psychos YouTube page. But I actually teamed up with subtle energy. And so we put healing frequencies, we encoded healing frequencies in our music, and Eric Thompson, who owns created subtle energy sent me all these frequencies, and I could choose which frequencies I wanted on these beats that I’m releasing. And what stuck to me immediately was 639 hertz, and 639 hertz, Foster’s forgiveness, forgiveness on a planetary level with what we’re going through right now. And for self and for others, and just to mend our relationships, whatever kind of relation ship we’ve had with all these kinds of relationships that we’re dealing with. So I’ll send it to, I would love for you to check it out. And if your viewers want to check it out, too. I’m really proud, it’s something new, I feel like I’m really turning new leaves right now. So I’m really I’m really excited, you know, that we cross paths and that we’re on each other’s journeys. And knowing me more, I think you’ll probably understand my art more as well, maybe you’ll see it in the depths of my soul, when you’re seeing me on TV or film or something, that I’m not just acting that it’s actually comes from a place where I’ve had the courage to, you know, tap into these vulnerable moments. And, you know, that’s why actors and artists are who they are, because they’re willing to go there, you know, they’re willing to, to go there. It’s um, you know, it’s, it’s an honor, it’s an honor to be able to be a vessel for everything we’ve talked about.
Victoria Volk 1:02:36
That’s amazing. I just love how you’re channeling all of that into the, into the work that you do, and, and it does, it creates ripples. And I hope that this podcast does as well. And one of the messages too, that I feel I want to mention and that you shared is that it’s important to find your people. Find the people that support you, lift you up that, like you said, hold a mirror view of who you really are, and where you shine, and they lift you up.
Katie Chonacas 1:03:14
Yeah, I love Kundalini Yoga. I really found my tribe through Kundalini all these years before I knew the word Kundalini Yoga before I ever practiced it. I was naturally doing Kundalini growing up, I started doing Kundalini when I was eight, I would just do it naturally by myself. I didn’t even know I was doing it. Or what I was, I was just practicing it. And so that’s definitely in my tribe. I do a lot of voiceovers. And I love voiceovers because you can be as big and loud and wacky as you want and the wackier and the louder the better, the more fun it is, because in voiceovers and acting you don’t want to be a bad actor and overact but in voiceovers, they want you to go super big with animation because they can always bring you down but if you’re going so small down like this, they don’t know if they could bring you up so it’s really good to be bold and big. So I find through the vo community I’m able to you know be in a booth and I’m able to do my work and it’s all about my choices my intention and how I sound more so to what I look like and I feel like I’ve done a lot of on screen acting and I like to put it on the backseat for a while and I was doing other things and now I’m I’m gonna get back on screen again. But when I took the time out, part of the psychological journey of taking time out and and not being on camera and not being seen was a part of me hiding and I would just be hiding because I would feel judged by people right hiding the shame hiding the blame isolating so i’d feel safe to be wild, loud and crazy in a voiceover booth. But not having people look at me because I’m gorgeous or judge me or treat me a certain way because of how I looked or something that I’ve been through. So, I’ve been acting the whole entire time. I just kind of took a backseat from being on screen for a while just from you know the pressures of of life and stuff we’ve talked about. But I’ve done a lot of soul searching and digging and things we’ve talked about, I created my own podcast. So, if y’all want to check it out, it’s called she’s all over the place podcast. So, I’m grateful to have the podcast and I’m grateful to, you know, have the space to take the space to sort and figure this all out, and then to share it. And yeah, so um, I just took new headshots. And so now I’m going to focus on getting back on TV and film. So that’s, that’s very exciting.
Victoria Volk 1:05:32
Awesome, come out from behind the microphone, right? And it makes sense to me that you would feel like, 2e’re made feel small, and to shush, right? made to shush for a long time. And so your time to shine.
Katie Chonacas 1:05:49
I’ll just say like, like, I came out of the gate, like, you know, like, boom, all out. And then I’m out there and I’m doing these things. And then with the stuff we’ve talked about, now I’ve taken time and space to reflect, identify sort through them it took like a long time to because then you feel like you know what you’re doing, then you keep going, but then it’s like, wait, something’s still feels off. And there’s the confusion, the cloudiness, and there’s the whole journey that you’re going through. So, I feel like now, especially in 2020, since the lockdown I’ve been able to just really take a backseat and really stop everything stop all the patterns, stop all the cycles and just just let everything just like fall down. And when I think it’s all down, because before like I thought it was all down, and then I kept going, but but some stuff came out but but it wasn’t right. And so now I’ve been able to just really stop and just when you want to like okay, okay keep going node be able to stop more be able to stay still longer, and and more stuff has come up. And so now I’m excited because I since I really had held depth of space, you know, now I can like I said before I can take it and apply it to my work so I can go back on screen. Knowingly knowing like more confident than ever it’s like and this time execution like Bullseye like no one nothing, whatever is gonna stop me because through and through, in and out. everything that’s happened good bad in between. I know myself so well, like Socrates says Know thyself, before, it’s like you think you know yourself, and you’re always getting to know yourself. But now it’s like, in 2020. Now more than ever, right? Know thyself, I can take that ammunition and apply it to my craft into my work and make multi millions of dollars doing it with a smile on my face.
Victoria Volk 1:07:39
Amen. I love that. Because that’s your birthright. And you don’t have to do to be or say or perform in any way to receive love to receive. You know, we got to give that to ourselves first. And really, thank you for being my guest today. And for sharing all that you shared. And if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you? I know you mentioned the podcast.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:10
Yeah, she’s all over the place podcast subscribe. My handle is my brand is the sophisticated psycho. So, we’re on all music streaming platforms. But you know, people can just email me imagine [email protected] [email protected] and then you know, I’m on all the social media handles, I just go by chonacas my last name.
Victoria Volk 1:08:32
And I will put the links in the show notes.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:39
Yeah, my website, just chonacas.com that’s probably the best way to reach out. Everything’s there.
Victoria Volk 1:08:44
Thank you so much, Katie.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:46
My pleasure. Thank you, thank you really unique experience. And I just I love the name grieving voices. And I just, I really identified with it immediately. So, it was a really good fit for us. I really appreciate you. And it was an honor to share my story here, you know, because it’s like, if not now, when, you know, like when it’s like it’s been happening for so long, and I’m not getting any younger. And if we really wanted to make an impact, we just need to actually take action on those things. So, I feel like today was a big success for both of us. Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:09:23
Thank you. Love that. All right, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. And like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, just send Katy some energetic love. And my grieving voice, my grieving heart goes off to you. And this is not the end. I have no doubt we will be keeping in touch.
Katie Chonacas 1:09:48
Yeah, definitely.
Victoria Volk 1:09:50
Thank you all for listening. Until next time, take care and much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health |
Bob Krulish: A Story of Devastation & Triumph Living with Bipolar
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
How would you feel if, as a parent, you were only allowed to see your kids for supervised visitation for 72 hours total out of an entire year?
That’s exactly what happened to my guest, Bob Krulish, and as a result of his bipolar diagnosis. However, he had always been a father with undiagnosed bipolar. And, the court system failed him.
Today’s story is about so much loss. In fact, Bob says that “Bipolar is the illness of loss.” And, after hearing his story, you will be able to see that it most definitely is.
I received so much education about bipolar through Bob’s story. If you know of someone who has bipolar, suspect they have bipolar, or if you yourself have bipolar, I highly recommend you listen to Bob’s story.
There is one fact he shares about depression and anti-depressants as they relate to bipolar that you will want to hear. And, it’s one change that can be made that could potentially eliminate so much suffering for those with bipolar.
Bob gives practical advice for those who have loved one’s living with bipolar, as well as common signs to look for in someone you suspect may have it. Bob is a ripple-creator and bringer of hope for those living with and supporting those with bipolar.
Listen up, take notes, and reach out to Bob! He’s an amazing human who’s found his way out of the dark hole of bipolar after living with it undiagnosed for 35 years.
References:
Connect with Bob:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome friends to another episode of grieving voices. I am really excited about today’s guest. It is a topic that I think is kind of lurks in the shadows, especially, you know, with mental illness, things like that. It’s a difficult topic. And today’s guest is talking specifically about bipolar disorder and his personal experience. Today we have Bob Krulish from Seattle, Washington and he is going to be sharing his experience with all sorts of losses as it related to his bipolar disorder experience. So, Bob, take it away.
Bob Krulish 00:40
Well, hi, and great to be here. I have I have an experience with bipolar disorder that is not unlike others, but also very unlike others. And that is that I went from being symptomatic when I was about 16 years old. My dad left and just left picked up and never heard from him again. And that triggered my biological predisposition to have bipolar disorder because it ends up my dad had it. And then I go from being symptomatic from 16 years old, until I get diagnosed when I’m 51. So I went 35 years of being undiagnosed. And yet having symptoms of bipolar disorder in we can talk more about why that is so hard to diagnose, and why that takes so long and how I got mis diagnosed. But what ended up happening was I had my soul have four children, I just Saturday, on Saturday, we had my fifth grandchild was born. So we’re excited about that. Thank you. That’s very exciting. And before grandchildren, when I just had children at home, I got into a really bad manic episode that was really sustained by being on the wrong medication for about three years, and to be manic for lat long, or stress everything out. So I lost my job, and I lost my marriage. And then I lost the kids. And then I lost all my possessions. And I lost all my money. and ended up on the floor of an abandoned cabin that a friend of a friend of a friend had in the woods with just a mattress on the floor, and a blanket, and a pillow. And a couple of things to wear. Well, I’ve I have lost everything that I loved. And that I held dear. And I could not believe the circumstances that I found myself in.
Victoria Volk 02:58
I am overwhelmed. I can picture it. I can picture. How old were you at that time?
Bob Krulish 03:04
So, I was 51 when I got the diagnosis and and about nine months before I got diagnosed, I was kind of kicked out of my house, kicked out of my marriage, pretty much kicked out of the family all in about January of that year. And then it wasn’t until August or September that I got diagnosed. But I was living in the cabin. About nine months after I had gotten kicked out, I had gone through a little bit of money that I got in my divorce and was so out of my mind thinking that some of the entrepreneurial things that I was working on, we’re gonna really materialize and that I was going to have plenty of money to keep the apartment that I had. But it ended up that none of that materialized, like is so common in people with bipolar when they’re manic, and I ended up being evicted from the apartment, which is another awful thing to go through when you show up at your apartment door and it’s bolted and there’s a big sign. And it says you have to have all your stuff out by tomorrow. And that was another rude awakening to what bipolar can do to a person I always call it the illness of loss in that word is very common among all of us with bipolar is that we have had loss, it almost could be the number one symptom. You know, sometimes people say I think I’m bipolar. And I’ll say well, what have you lost? Did you lose your job? Did you lose your partner to lose your family to lose your money and if they say they haven’t lost anything, then I’m pretty sure they don’t have bipolar disorder.
Victoria Volk 04:56
That is an amazing distinction. Thank you for bringing that up. You had experienced loss that triggered it.
Bob Krulish 05:02
I have experienced a big loss with my dad, that what ends up being the case when people with bipolar is we have a genetic predisposition to it. But not everybody’s that has a genetic predisposition has that gene turned on, like my brother and my sister have a genetic predisposition to have had bipolar, but their gene never got turned on. And what turns it on is some emotional crisis that ends up being taken place in not that my brother, my sister had it easy. When my dad left, they didn’t either. But for some reason, the way they manifested their grief and loss didn’t trigger their bipolar, but it triggered mine.
Victoria Volk 05:49
That’s fascinating. I’m sorry, go ahead.
Bob Krulish 05:53
I’m just saying that’s very common in everybody with bipolar, they can go back to a time before they were symptomatic. And then they can usually identify a pretty big event that took place, usually between about 16 and 20 years old, is when it’s very typical for people have habit triggered. And it’s usually some kind of a life event that triggered that.
Victoria Volk 06:18
And what we’re learning about grief, just I think, in general, and you know, things that I’ve learned and reading about how trauma kind of still stays in our body, and it changes us like loss and trauma changes us at a cellular level, physiologically. So, what changed for you laying on that mattress in that cabin, what was how did you get out of that state of mind?
Bob Krulish 06:44
That was very hard to do, I was fortunate in a way that I got to go in March of that year. So I was pretty much kicked out of my, my life in January. This is in 2009. And in March of that year, I had the wherewithal to go to a Tony Robbins seminar. And he’s a great motivational speaker. And it was his unleash the power within where you walk on hot coals and, and really is very inspiring. And it helped me quite a bit when I went there, I was really ready, I actually told the people I sit next to, I’m either going to sit through the seminar, or I’m walking back to the hotel and jumping off the building. That’s how depressed I was at the time about my grief. But in that seminar, he taught the concept of building a map, and mmap a massive action plan, and gave me the tools to do that. And it wasn’t until I was in the cabin for a couple of months that I pulled out my notebook to that seminar and started to build a massive action plan. And that plan was a few things that I’ve learned that you need to do if you’re going to manage bipolar disorder, and one is you need to understand it, you really need to understand the symptoms, the medications, the coping strategies in two, you need to be able to communicate with your doctor, your psychiatrist, you really need to be able to communicate your symptoms to him or her you have to be you have to be very revealing because the medication is so hard to to get actually you. It’s not hard to do. You get it from a doctor. But there are I’ve been on 16 different psychotropic drugs. And I’ve been through about 64 med changes over the past 11 years. So, we’re tweaking my meds about every other month. And the only way to really keep on that is to be very good at add, add revealing your symptoms and your side effects and everything that the doctor needs in order to put you on the right dose of the right man. So, once I got that plan in place, and I started to learn more and more about my illness, I was able to communicate better with my doctor. And we were able to get me on the right meds for at least a period of time. Until we made another bad change. Being on the right meds was really what what you have to do in order to manage the film.
Victoria Volk 09:33
Now the question that I have, and it might be a personal one, so if you don’t want to answer that’s quite all right. I understand. But it might be a question that listeners might be having as well. I’m assuming that you didn’t have a lot of resources if you’re living in a cabin on a mattress, right? Right. How did you get to that Tony Robbins event? How did you find the I guess what, what helped you get from that? Actress to the Tony Robbins event to the doctor, to, you know, how did you accumulate those resources that helped you turn, turn the page?
Bob Krulish 10:09
Well, I had gotten a small settlement from my ex-wife in January when I left, and I use some of that money. And it was only a few months of living expenses. But in my mania, I decided to just blow some of the money on a seminar. And this was before I was in the cabin, I will start renting an apartment. And, and I really shouldn’t have spent the money in. Well, in part, I say, I shouldn’t have spent the money because I eventually get evicted from my apartment. But the other thing was, is that if I hadn’t spent the money, I wouldn’t have learned how to do this massive action plan and have the energy to do it. So I spent some money that I had gotten in my settlement. And then I blew through all my money by October, and it was evicted from my apartment. So, I had a several million dollars of wealth when we got divorced, and I ended up signing it all the way to my ex-wife, in my mania, thinking that I can make all that money back in no time. That’s how you are when you’re manic, you have these grandiose ideas about what you can do, and you believe you’re all powerful, you believe you’re your God. Like you know, I always jokingly say the only difference between me and God at that time was that God never thought he was me. But I spent a lot of time thinking I was him. And so, I gave away all that money in a manic stupor and ended up qualifying nom in the cabin. Now I’m properly diagnosed, and I have a handful of prescriptions to fill, and I got on a state program. So, I really got on like a state welfare program. Whereas able to get my medication and get some help. But it went from millionaire to on government assisted medication programs, all in about a 10-month period of time.
Victoria Volk 12:39
Wow. And I can’t even imagine the grief, the additional grief and the shame probably too, right? Like, How have you navigated all of that?
Bob Krulish 12:51
So much shame, so much shame in that, especially when you’re still trying to live near the same community that you’ve been living as a successful person in, and now you’re living this way, I never had a friend, come see me at the cabin, I was so ashamed. have anybody ever seen me with one piece of furniture, a mattress that, you know, where were they going to sit there would be sitting on the mattress, if they came over. And it was and I did not have a car anymore. I didn’t even have a bike. I was taking the city bus. I was just living a whole different life than what I was living before. And it was, I was very ashamed of it. So, I had to shame I had to grieve the loss. And then I’m still dealing with the loss of my children. What ended up happening there was once my ex-wife found out that I had bipolar, which we found out in August of that year. And I let her know, she immediately went and got a different parenting plan submitted to the court. And in that parenting plan, she restricted my visit severely with the children because now I have bipolar disorder, her her whole argument was that I just got it in August 2009. When that didn’t really happen. And really all the bizarre behavior that I had before was explained by the bipolar, but she tended, she chose to ignore that. So, what I ended up with was a parenting plan where I only got to see my kids the second and fourth Sunday of the month from 430 to 730. So just three hours, all the time being supervised by people that were assigned to supervise me during those three-hour visits, and I wasn’t allowed to call the kid or text them or communicate with them any other way. all I got was six hours a month for 72 hours a year. You know, that’s, that’s a three-day weekend, 72 hours. And that’s the equivalent amount of time that I saw my kids. And the thing that was more painful than I ever imagined what’s gonna happen with this parenting plan was that it lasted for six years. So for the entire time that my youngest was from 12 years old, until he was 18. I only saw him for 72 hours a year. Wow. And we still have a strained relationship today. Because he just really can’t. He can’t have mature relationships when you’re when you’re being when you’re being watched, you know, you’re being supervised trying to have a meeting with your child. And it just, it just was never really great.
Victoria Volk 16:00
And you were shamed by the courts. Again, and unfortunately, your ex-wife did not understand the damage she was doing to her own son, your son. Yes. Yeah. In severing that parental relationship that you Yeah, could have had, you know, because then your son has grief about loss of hopes, dreams and expectations about his relationship to you.
Bob Krulish 16:29
Right.
Victoria Volk 16:30
She had a lot of power in that I’m so sorry that you have to go through that.
Bob Krulish 16:32
It had a lot of power. Mental Illness gives people a lot of power over you.
Victoria Volk 16:39
I don’t mean to villainize her. But I just want to highlight though, that we don’t understand how our actions sometimes create these ripples of greed to with those we care we truly care about, right?
Bob Krulish 16:55
Yeah, I don’t know how much she was aware of it going in. And I realized that she was trying to protect the kids. And she, all of a sudden, now, Bob, with bipolar disorder. And even though for the 25 years, we were together, I was bombed with bipolar disorder. Now I have a diagnosis. And now she’s got this method, you know, with the courts because of my diagnosis, to put these hard restrictions on me, and I went to court to try to overturn it after a couple of years. While after really after, like five years or more, almost six years, I went to court, we had plenty of evidence from all the supervisors that I did a great job, with the kids all the time, never missed the meeting of is never late, and never left early. For the first year of it. I lived in Dallas with a new job. And I stayed in a hotel and I flew back every other weekend, every second and fourth Sunday, or every second and fourth weekend to be with the kids and about lost in court to get that overturned after secure. The judge just just said that I was the judge deemed me as a threat to the children. And because I have bipolar disorder, even though I had given her raving reviews from my doctors, and my supervisors, and he had all these great reviews of all these people. She thought I just had to get more I was good at pretending to be good while I was being supervised but when I was going to be supervised, I wouldn’t be good at it.
Victoria Volk 18:50
So that is how the court system is where you basically represent yourself like there is no panel where you can bring in people to represent you who have worked with you and can vouch for your progress and how you’re living your life, like that’s not part of the process?
Bob Krulish 19:10
No, you can you get affidavits, written statements from all these people and you submit it to the court. You have I had a lawyer represent me You go to court, you’re not allowed to talk and you’re not allowed to bring any of these other witnesses. The only people who are allowed to talk are the two lawyers in, so you just sit there and and you’ve been filing affidavit after affidavit I spent more than $25,000 on attorney fees you know petitioning the court for this with you know getting an affidavit from just about everybody. I I felt like I needed one and the judge just kind of threw out all all the good comments about me. She said that I was just really good at talking people into stuff and And because my ex wife said that I was, and you know what you really got when you’re manic, you’re very charismatic, you’re very, you know, people want to hang out with you. You’re the life of the party, you’re going places. And so you aren’t very convincing. But throughout this whole time, I’m now medicated, so I’m not really manic anymore. I’m not in this state that I was in before when I was incorrectly medicated. And so I lost that court case, but then I appealed it. And I’m so glad I appealed that I went to a higher court, an appeals court. And in that court, the judge was so upset, what happened to me this complete opposite of the other judge and apologize on behalf of the court, and said, this should have never happened. And yet, unfortunately, you know, it was too little too late. You know, it was great to be finally validated by a court that everything I had done was great. And I deserve to be with the kids. But it wasn’t until six years had gone by.
Victoria Volk 21:18
The thought that came to my mind as I was listening to you is that we all are raised with beliefs that we grow up with. And whether we are as kids, we become a rocket scientist, or a judge, or a police officer, or a doctor, or the store clerk. We have these beliefs. And it just reminds me or makes me think of judges have beliefs too. Yeah. And you know, what was that judge’s belief about mental illness, about bipolar disorder where she couldn’t be objective, right? And just look at the situation for what it was, instead of what she what she believed. And I think that’s where that’s, I just wanted to highlight that, that thought, because that’s where change needs to happen in the justice system and the court system.
Bob Krulish 22:13
So desperately, we need to have changed there.
Victoria Volk 22:17
Because you were victimized again and again and again, for something that was out of your control.
Bob Krulish 22:22
Yeah, it was, I was being victimized for years and years and years and years.
Victoria Volk 22:29
How did you get how do you get out of that? How, how did you flip that script? I mean, I know you said the Tony Robbins thing, but like, how have you kept that momentum going? Is it just the medication that has really helped you? Stay level and?
Bob Krulish 22:45
It’s a lot of other stuff too, Victoria, like, in the past 11 years, I’ve had about 700 hours of therapy. So, I have therapy, sometimes two or three times a week, wow, for an hour at a time. And then sometimes I’m just once a week. And so, I’ve had a tremendous amount of therapy, which has given me a lot of insight to my condition and in myself. And it’s really helped me to reframe a lot of the pain through a lot of different therapeutic techniques. And then I built a lot of different coping strategies to compensate for the loss. You know, I have, I’d like to play golf. It’s a hobby of mine. But golf is also how I do my mindfulness. So, when I’m practicing hitting golf balls, my mind is that it’s only paying attention to the golf ball. It’s no longer in this mess of reminiscing about all kinds of bad stuff, bad thoughts. Normally, if I let my mind just be on its own, it will go to the dark side. So, I found different things, not just golf, but other things to do that kept my mind preoccupied. I started coaching families that have a son or daughter or loved one with bipolar disorder. And as I started coaching them, and getting them the help that they needed, that was very therapeutic for me, and I’ve coached I can’t even count how many families now that I’ve coached where we’ve had some really good experiences you know where the individual got better Yeah, that’s been in just reading the letters I get and hearing the comments on Facebook or wherever. It’s just so sweet. It’s it’s really been very, very therapeutic for me and very it just in a went to show me that really what one of the big keys to eliminating the pain and suffering that comes from bipolar disorder is education. And like you alluded to, like have the judges were better educated about bipolar disorder, they would have seen that I didn’t get it in August 2009. But that I had in my whole life, and they would have seen that I was a good dad with it. And they wouldn’t have put those restrictions on me, but they misunderstand it. And, you know, it’s kind of interesting how you could have not that diabetes is the picnic. And I don’t mean to say that it is. But I know people that are diabetic, and when they got when they got diagnosed, they spent like a week in the hospital, going to classes on diabetes, learning everything about how to manage their diabetes, which is fantastic. And you know, how much education I got, I got nothing, not a thing. I got four prescriptions handed to me by my doctor. And he said, the first doctor to diagnose me said, let’s give these a try. Let’s see if they might work. And I was like, What do you mean might work? He goes, it’s really, it’s random. What might work for you might not work for somebody else. And that was my entire education was just realizing that I’m, I’m about to just take a random shot with psychotropic drugs to see if this will fix me or not. So what I learned through some researchers was that they did some research on what happens when the family is well educated about the bipolar. And any individual, what happens to them, does that make a difference? And there’s researchers, one here in the United States, and one in Barcelona, Spain did a 21 week course, about bipolar. And they found that the people that went to the course, and the families, that those people tripled the rate, though, they got into well being or healthy, and stayed healthy, three times as much as the people who didn’t get the education. So, it was three times more likely that a person would be on the managers illness successfully, if they went to a psycho education course. And so when I heard that and read all this research, then I saw that it had been, it had been replicated many times around the world. I was like, why aren’t we doing this? Why this? This seems like, along with the medication, the therapy, and then the education, everybody could live well with this, why is this being done, and it’s one of those places where research hasn’t really gotten into the practice. So part of what I do is take that research and put it into practice by coaching families, and it’s just so amazing what a big change it makes, once they understand how to deal with bipolar disorder.
Victoria Volk 28:12
We don’t know what we don’t know. Right?
Bob Krulish 28:15
We don’t know, what we don’t know, and, and what we don’t know, it’s hurting us.
Victoria Volk 28:20
Absolutely. That’s great. That’s salt with so much in life. When we make decisions, then out of fear, and what we don’t know then where we’re coming from a decision and processing out of fear, and we push away, and we deflect, and we ignore, and, and it’s out of fear, and what we don’t know
Bob Krulish 28:43
You’re out of fear, or we don’t know you’re right. And what we do we tend to do is we tend to listen to the most outrageous behaviors about about a particular thing like about bipolar, you know, and then we we remember those remember hearing about the person who went bipolar. And so, we’ve all heard stories of people who were bipolar, who did something awful, or at least that’s what you’ll hear on the news. The school shooting is a person of the year is bipolar or schizophrenic. You know, we hear that on the news, or they assume that he has or she has a mental illness. And so, we get locked in there with all these really awful situations. And so the first thing that people are going to think about when they hear that I have bipolar, they’re gonna go Oh, you mean like the guy that shot up all the people at the theater, you know, and that’s in the back of their mind. And it doesn’t give them any room in the front of their mind, to really see it differently. with compassion, with compassion. Right? Right. And where Just statistic, I think we are much more likely to be a victim of a crime than actually a perpetrator of a crime with people with mental illness. But that’s not understood. Because we hear these stories, you know, in the news, so in education about the illness, starts with the family, any individual, but it’s my hope that the work that I do, will make its way into the legal system, where a video course and I’m building on those lessons that were done by researchers, I’m hoping that I can get this video course into the judicial system somehow, to where that can be something that they could learn about bipolar disorder from, and more clinicians to learn more about bipolar disorder and more non, you know, like general practitioners, they get very little education about this in their med school. So, I just have this strong feeling that we can really eliminate most of the suffering caused by this illness, with just the right amount of education. And then that’s something that that’s all it would take, it doesn’t really need a new drug to be discovered. It doesn’t need to be a new therapy does it need to be more drugs, or less drugs, that one thing psychoeducation tripled, the possibility of getting into recovery. And I just blew my mind, when that was all they did was educate people.
Victoria Volk 31:45
You’re more likely to be a victim to yourself as well. Right?
Bob Krulish 31:49
Right.
Victoria Volk 31:50
With bipolar disorder?
Bob Krulish 31:52
Most definitely.
Victoria Volk 31:53
Without that education piece?
Bob Krulish 31:55
Without that education piece, the medications are very difficult to understand, and to in to live with, because they have a lot of side effects. But when you understand them, you’re more committed to them, you know, and what ends up happening is, a lot of times, we don’t like the medication, because we don’t understand it. And we self medicate with either alcohol or drug. And then we have that addiction, along with our bipolar, that’s very, very common is self medicating. And again, it just goes back to learning more about the illness, and that there are 20 different medications you could try. So if you’re having a bad side effect with one of them, most people will just give up with the meds and quit seen a doctor, but would be if they understood that there are other alternatives, but they just don’t know. So it’s a it’s a very disabling illness. It’s one of the biggest causes of disability among people in the world. And and it just blows my mind how if we just could educate the masses about it. It can really, the whole problem can go away. That just blows me away. Every time I talk about it, I’m like, yeah, and that’s, that’s actually all it would take.
Victoria Volk 33:27
And that’s why I wanted you on my podcast. Because I think mental illness has touched my life personally, in my family. And it is something that it, it ripples, and the education piece is huge with grief as well. I mean, I tie everything to grief, because, yeah, your experience is a grieving experience. And it’s just what we don’t know and what we can know what is available to us. adding on to our knowledge base changes our perspective. And when we change our perspective, we can look at things with compassion, look at things differently.
Bob Krulish 34:07
Yes, like I say, we go from contempt, to compassion about that individual, you know.
Victoria Volk 34:14
I love that.
Bob Krulish 34:15
That’s, that’s the goal is to go from contempt. Like the court treated me with contempt to treating me with compassion. And that’s why I wrote wrote a book about my life experience to to give people have at least a little bit of a guide on on how they can be well with a cell Miss, that that book kind of crona Chronicles my whole history with the illness being undiagnosed, and then at least at the very end of the book, we find that I get diagnosed and then I can be much better trying to do everything I can to really spread awareness that this doesn’t have to be as disabling as it can be. For mains and millions of people around the world, in that people shouldn’t have to suffer loss like this. But it is so common that they have so many loss and bipolar, so much grieving going on.
Victoria Volk 35:19
What are some ways we can help others who live with a mental illness? So, I know you say you’re developing this program, and you said education is a huge piece. In navigating when, especially when there are limited resources, when there are when there isn’t as much proactive things happening within a community or it’s still something that is shamed, and there’s access to limited resources, what would you tell those family members and those with bipolar, how they can help themselves?
Bob Krulish 35:56
While there’s a lot of things they can do. That the big one of the biggest things is how we communicate with each other. And other found that if, like, part of my video course that I’m working on is about communicating. And it would be for example, Mom and Dad are frustrated that their son isn’t taking their medication, so they harass them, by asking him, did you take your meds yet? Do you take your meds today? Because he because the kid just said something that they didn’t like? And so they’re like, you must be manic? Are you taking your meds? And that always turns into an argument? But wouldn’t it be cool if they could know that, whether or not he’s either taking the meds or if they’re working or not, without having to ask him, and there is a way if they understood all the symptoms that a person can have. And then they saw those symptoms, the ones that are in the doctor’s manual about bipolar disorder, and that they started seeing those symptoms, they would know for sure that the meds aren’t working enough, you know, and and I always say, let’s assume the meds aren’t working, let’s not assume it’s not taking them. But let’s assume they’re just not working right. And you can have a conversation with your son about you know what, I noticed that you are really talking very fast, and you keep interrupting, and you don’t let anybody else talk. And we learned from that course that that’s a major symptom of mania in and we’re wondering, maybe your meds aren’t working, right. And now now the blame is on the meds that on the kid. And now there’s, there’s a reason to look for a solution.
Victoria Volk 37:49
And that child doesn’t feel shamed.
Bob Krulish 37:53
Exactly, exactly, then feel shamed, then feel judged, and feel criticize isn’t defensive, is looking for now. If the internet especially if the individual has been well trained too, he or she’s going to say, Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize I was talking so fast and interrupting people that is a sign of mania. Let’s make an appointment to go see my doctor.
Victoria Volk 38:19
If I suspect my loved one might have bipolar disorder, what are the signs that I should look for?
Bob Krulish 38:25
My bipolar they’re pretty, pretty obvious. Typically, well, first of all, they have to had some experience with mania. And but but keep in mind, too, that with bipolar, we spend more episodes multiple times many episodes in depression than we do in mania. But it’s the mania that really would be the telltale, that you have bipolar, because if you just saw the depression alone, it could be just major depression disorder. And I don’t mean just just major depressive disorder, because that’s awful. But but it may just be that but if you see the mania, those would be things like they wouldn’t want to sleep. They would. When when I’m manic. I hate sleep. I complain about sleep. I think it’s the biggest waste of time. I tell my my girlfriend, I think this is a big waste of time. I don’t know why people do it. I’m going to stay up tonight, you know, because I have too many things to do. The other thing is they have too many things going on in their mind that they want to do. They have a lot of projects, so they need to stay up all night work on their projects. And we’re very good at starting dozens of things without really finishing anything. So if all of a sudden your loved one started to complain about having to sleep, wasn’t sleeping, could stay awake for 234 nights in a row without being I’m tired, that would be a huge sign that they’re having a manic episode. If they’re very impulsive, and they start just spending money like crazy, they have all these plans of making money through all these different projects they’re going through. That’s another big tell, they’re manic. And they’ll do very grandiose thinking, they won’t have a goal like, like back in my day, when I was a kid, jack Nicklaus was a great golfer, like Tiger Woods is today or is known as today. But back then it was jack Nicklaus. And I would tell all my friends that I was going to be jack Nicklaus, I was going to not only beat him, but I was going to beat all his records, it wasn’t enough that I might just be able to play golf and make a living. My grandiose was, I was also going to be a senator, United States Senator, and I was going to be a jet fighter pilot. And it wasn’t enough just to be a pilot of a plane. But it had to be the fastest super jets that man made. And so those kind of grandiose thinking. And the last thing is you kind of have an ego, as if you’re your divine, you really feel like you’re very, very capable of doing things. So if somebody started just talking really fast, talking about all these ideas, had an idea to build a business where they had no experience and had the grandiose idea of making millions and millions of dollars or doing something really ridiculously huge. Those would be very big signs that they’re in a manic episode.
Victoria Volk 41:42
So, it served you well, though? your mania because you became a wealthy businessman is that is that correct?
Bob Krulish 41:50
Well, between what my ex-wife did, and myself, we did very, very well. And to a degree, it served me pretty well, it helped me do work that that was hard for other people to do. It helped me you know, work 18-hour days when I needed to work 18 hour days, and and I don’t want people to get the wrong impression that, you know, maybe it’d be nice to be manic for a while and get some things done, what ends up happening is that he it’s like a train going down the tracks. And it’s going faster and faster. And it’s pretty cool, because it’s going faster and passing all the other trains on on the tracks. But before you can slow it down, it’ll crash. That’s how you slow it down, there’s no, it just keeps getting faster and faster and faster, and then it gets out of control, and then it crashes. And then you end up using a depressive episode. So, I don’t want don’t want to spend one day manic, because I just don’t know what that might lead to. But it does give you a lot of energy. And it gives you a lot of creative power. And and you see a lot of people that have geniuses or people that are very, very successful, have this illness and road, their manic wave from time to time. But they also if you look in their life, they have loss, they have a live loss.
Victoria Volk 43:21
But in that moment, I imagine it kind of affirms for you it’s an affirming thing, that I mean, you kind of develop a relationship with the mania as something that, you know, like doesn’t that feed back then like you’re having some success, and you’re having this feedback then that this is this is a good thing, like in your mind, like it’s a good thing. And then like I said, you don’t realize it though, until you hit a wall.
Bob Krulish 43:51
You never realize until you hit a wall. And, and what ends up happening is like, nobody makes any sense to you anymore. You know, and you don’t make sense to anybody. And you start just to believe that everybody else is wrong. Everybody else is wrong. And, and I was doing really well in my career, I was helping invent a new way for this insurance company to do business. I was a mathematician, I did all these massive calculations in save the company from being being defunct. And so I’m going fast on the track. I am the guy. And the president of the company is touting my success in all these big meetings around the company, and then all of a sudden, I have an idea of how they should be managing the business that I just helped them create. That was bizarre, but because they didn’t have that idea, I kept challenging the president of the company in these large meetings, I would stand up and challenge him. And saying, you know, you’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong, this is how we ought to do it. And that’s when train is going off the tracks. And then I was hired. So I went from being praised by everybody in the company for a long time to then being fired, because the train just kept going down the track. When you’re in it, though, you don’t want to lose it. You know, it’s, it’s the most powerful feeling in the world. And it’s the reason why this is so hard to diagnose. Remember, I mentioned earlier that it took forever for me to get diagnosed properly. And that is, in part because when we’re manic, we don’t go see a doctor, we would actually find that to be silly, because we we know more than a doctor knows where we’re the all knowing. And so the doctor doesn’t see us when we’re manic. And that’s the only time they could really diagnosis with bipolar, will show up when we’re depressed. And then if the doctor doesn’t do the right kind of questioning, they might just think we have depressive disorder, because they didn’t probe enough to find out if there was any mania in a person’s life. And so, we don’t go to the doctor. And the other thing that we do more and more manic is that we feel so good, that the last thing we want to do is take any drugs, any medication that might take away this feeling. So, it reads on itself.
Victoria Volk 46:30
If I were to have a family member who was in a state of that mania, what is the best way that? How can I support them? What is what is something I can do? Or anyone listening?
Bob Krulish 46:43
That is the hardest question, that is the tough one. And a lot of times, there isn’t very much he can do, you have to kind of let him ride the thing out, I always say that try to stay as magnetic as you can to the person by not being too judgmental buying by communicating better with them, you know, don’t like I had, I had somebody that I met. And the parents were complaining that their son says that he knows how to live to be 115. And I said, Well, just let me try to have lunch with them. So, we bribe them, and they pay them to have lunch with me. That’s how he’s manic. So, he doesn’t think he needs to talk to anybody. So the very first thing I do, and he had some paper and a pencil, I happen to have paper and pencil with him. And he says, You know what I’ve learned how to live to be 115. And I said, I heard that you know how to do that. And before I leave, you got to write down on paper, how to do it, because I want to live to be 115. So there’s no harm in going there. You know, if it means that he eats healthy, he exercises, great. Maybe he will lead to be 115. We didn’t know that everybody was gonna have an iPhone four years ago. So maybe there is a way. But it was just being I was being magnetic with him wasn’t being repulsive, where the family was fighting him all the time that he brought this up, because they were embarrassed by him, saying that he’s going to live to be 115. And so, when I teach, as I say, just try to stay magnetic during this episode, and write it out. But don’t get disconnected with them. Because that could end ugly. You know, that one time this kid had a restraining order against them. So the family put a restraining order on him on one time. There are several communication strategies that I have that that you can talk to somebody in mania, but it’s very difficult to really get them to pop out of it. It’s so addicting. It’s so it just breeds on itself. You just feel so powerful. It’s just so hard to let it go.
Victoria Volk 49:18
How long generally do those episodes last?
Bob Krulish 49:23
Yeah, that’s a great question. They could last it really varies. They could last couple of weeks or a couple of months. Or even longer. What ended up happening with me here is a little-known fact that ought to be known to everybody. It’s that if a doctor prescribes an anti depressant to a person who actually has bipolar but doesn’t prescribe a mood stabiliser with the anti depressant, that ended depressant will make them mad. Wow, like that, like within days of taking an antidepressant, you will go into mania and the anti depressant will sustain your mania. For as long as you take the anti depressant, that’s how I lost everything. My general practitioner just saw on the depression side of my own my anxiety side, it didn’t see the me and because I don’t go to the doctor when I’m manic, and she prescribed an antidepressant, and then I went into mania. I felt so good. I never felt like I needed to go back to see her. I just needed the prescription to be refilled. So that went on for years, for about three years. That’s how I lost everything.
Victoria Volk 50:48
This blows my mind. Like, what is the Mental Health Organization doing to educate general practitioners on this?
Bob Krulish 50:58
Yeah, not enough right now. Not enough. There’s so much more needs to be done.
Victoria Volk 51:03
Like there’s no screening like, like, this just blows my mind. Like, how is this happening? I’m on board with you. Let’s just scream this to the world that’s letters. Maybe you need the Bob Krulish law, go to congress.
Bob Krulish 51:22
Yeah, while we’re working on stuff like that, we’re working on stuff like that, because the awareness level of that needs to be with everybody. I mean, it’s so dangerous, you know, I’ve, I’m on like, 10 different bipolar groups on Facebook. And this comes up almost every day. I mean, one of these groups, somebody is gonna say, did you take an antidepressant before you got diagnosed, and it made you manic? That’s taking precedent make you manic. Because I went made manic. And I’m like, gosh, every day, I see the same thing happening over and over again, today. I’m not talking about this isn’t like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, these are people today that are on an antidepressant, and they need to be on a mood stabilizer with it.
Victoria Volk 52:16
Question now. So, my loved one is exhibiting signs and symptoms of depression. What then are the signs for someone who has bipolar was not being diagnosed? But who is in that depressive state? Are there differences? Are there differentiating factors to look for?
Bob Krulish 52:38
Yeah, definitely. The depression. You know, would be, you know, what’s what’s what’s really obvious in the depression, is they’re no longer interested in things that used to be interesting to them. Like, like a fire all of a sudden, just didn’t want to play golf anymore. And just rather stay in bed. That would be a big sign that I’ve gone into an episode. So what psychiatrists use is a scale, it’s called the manic scale. And and it’s a it’s a question here, that they asked people before they put them on an antidepressant? And it would, it would say stuff like, in your life, have you ever lost a marriage? Or have you ever started a business? Have you ever had grand ideas about your business, things like that, that would that would try to find out if the person ever in their lifetime ever had symptoms of mania, but it’s this scale that they need to have the individual take. And it’s quite, can be quite extensive line of questioning. But psychiatrists to train with this line of questioning, but general practitioners are not, they really don’t get very much education about mental illness, when you’re becoming a general practitioner, and troubling Fact is, but they have the power not to prescribe an antidepressant to anybody and not doing this thoroughly. causes a lot of people have this illness, and be out of control with it. That’s how I lost everything. That’s how the job law, the jobs of marriage, the kids, the money. That’s what took me to the cabin, was being on an antidepressant.
Victoria Volk 54:49
This is my takeaway from everything you’ve shared. You know, when we have a heart condition, we go to a cardiologist. If we have something funny on our skin, Yeah, we could go to a general practitioner. But why would I go to general practitioner when I could go to a dermatologist, someone who specializes in conditions of the skin? So why do we, as a society leave mental illness to general practitioners? And would that be the one thing that you would love to be changed that a general practitioner could not diagnose depression and prescribe antidepressants? because that’d be one thing that could change that would,
Bob Krulish 55:34
That would change the trajectory of this so much. And I would I love general practitioners on that.
Victoria Volk 55:41
Same here.
Bob Krulish 55:42
I just don’t they, they just don’t have, they just didn’t get the insight. They didn’t get the coursework, they didn’t get the training. This is a very difficult thing to diagnose. Even if you’re a trained psychiatrists, you have to go through this lengthy line of questioning to really uncover whether the person is just a very optimistic person, or are they very grandiose, you know, are they a blowhard, and they never quit talking about themselves, or they have pressured speech that you’d find in bipolar disorder, you know, and you really have to be able to pull these data points out, and they’re just not trained for it. They just don’t they don’t have time in their training foreign. So I would either say, you know, get them properly trained, so they can do these diagnostic scales or tests, or, yes, stop prescribing, antidepressants. I think it’s the number one thing that is prescribed in this country are antidepressants. And you’re absolutely right, you wouldn’t go see a GP about a dermatology thing or, or cardiology thing, you’d go see a cardiologist. Yeah, for some reason, we’ve accepted the fact that we go see a GP, when we’re depressed. Yeah, that would change a lot. There’s so many people, I can’t, I can’t even imagine how many, probably million people that have probably been misdiagnosed sometime in their life, and had manic symptoms.
Victoria Volk 57:29
After my second child, I experienced some postpartum symptoms. And then after my third, it was even more so. And good, I gone to a, you know, general practitioner, and I shared what I was feeling and experiencing and you know, the first thing to do was to prescribe an antidepressant. Right? And there was no question of history of mental illness, there was no quote, you know, maybe she did I don’t remember there’s, you know, I’m sure there is some sort of questionnaire although it was, I’m sure it was brief. My point in saying that, though, is I was never asked, well, what happened to you? And I think that’s maybe one question a general practitioner could ask is, what happened to you? Like you said, what have what have your loss has been Have you had a lot of loss in your life? Right, you know, and that’s how I, that’s my angle when it comes to grief and depression and things like that is what happened to you. Because your life and your messages, it’s like, your life doesn’t have to be a train wreck. To stay on the rails, it doesn’t have to get that far, I guess, is what I’m hearing in your message. Like there. There’s hope. Yeah, for recognizing it early. Without there having to be mania where then by then it’s it can feel like it’s too late, right?
Bob Krulish 58:57
Because it does, too. Because mania will run its course. And then if you’re on an antidepressant, that’s like, given that train enough fuel to just burn itself up, you know, it’s just fuel for the fire. And, and when you’re when you’re manic, it’s the weirdest thing because, first of all, you can’t see that you are. You don’t, you would tell anybody who told you that you’re manic, that they were crazy. I remember I’ve said that so many times the people, I, you know, I say I’m just a visionary. They’ll say your goals are ridiculous. Say I’m a visionary, Walt Disney. You’re like his brother. Pooh poohing the whole idea. Walt Disney. I must have said, I’m Walt Disney a million times about the kind of visionary person that I am, and you’re totally engrossed in it. You can’t see that your new girl the weird one, using everybody else’s, the weird one, you can’t see that you’re then and the worst part is it feels so powerful, you feel so strong, you know, there’s you don’t worry, you don’t worry about anything. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t think anything is impossible you think everything is possible, I call it, you know, you’re you’re infinitely hopeful, you know where, when you’re depressed are infinitely hopeless. And that manic state man is a great feeling. You know, and I have to remind myself, you know, why I take my meds every day, because it is a temptation to go, you know, and be nice, you know, I got a lot of work to do in the next couple of months around my book, and I really would use the boosts of being manic right now. And I just had to remind myself that that, that would be the quickest way to lose the kids again. And the quickest way to lose everything else I got. One of the communication strategies I learned, that worked for me, and that works, everybody that I’ve taught this to, is that I, I don’t call them my bipolar meds, that I call them, I get to still see my kids meds. And, and, and they were, I get to see my kid bands. And when I teach people is a find a reason.
Victoria Volk 1:01:31
Those are your why.
Bob Krulish 1:01:33
What is your why, and let that be it, let it be your and I get, I get to keep a job, man, or I get to have a partner mad, or I have money in the bank mad and and then when you feel bad, or unless you don’t want to have money in the bank, you’ll still stay on the medication. And that’s the secret is to find a y that that would be there no matter how you felt.
Victoria Volk 1:02:04
There’s empowerment in that. Right? There’s so much empowerment in that to feel like you are in control of this thing that feels can feel or take your life out of control.
Bob Krulish 1:02:18
Out of control. Yeah, yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:02:20
I thought of another question too. So, for someone listening to this, what came to my mind was, well, you know, if you go to the doctor, and you suspect that your loved one has bipolar, and they go to the doctor, but they’re in a depressive state, they’re not manic, they get diagnosed, or Yeah, diagnosed, I suppose with depression, and so they’re given an antidepressant? Yeah, the solution in my mind, then, well, let’s get you off the antidepressant. If you start seeing those manic symptoms, what do you say to those thoughts, like to someone who might have might be having those thoughts to a loved one who might be considering getting their loved one off the antidepressant? Or someone listening? Who might just take themselves off or whatever?
Bob Krulish 1:03:07
Yeah, the trick is, one, one thing is that, when they get into that manic episode, they’re not going to want to let go of it. Because it just feels, I mean, I literally thought I can fly. I remember thinking, how weak everybody else was because they couldn’t fly. I’m just so grateful. I never jumped off a building. Wow. But I was convinced that I could fly. So why would I want to stop being able to fly? You know, why would I want to stop this? And so what, where the education comes in? For anybody, it could be somebody that just has a friend that might have bipolar, if they were well educated, they could say, you know what, I’m pretty well educated about bipolar disorder. And I’m not saying that you have it. But I am saying that I see some symptoms that people with bipolar have, like you’re really talking very fast, all the time, and you interrupt everybody, and everybody’s getting upset with you, because you don’t let them talk, you know, and they could start uncovering some of the symptoms that you see. And you can be a mirror to them, you can reflect back what you’re seeing. But you have to know what these things are. You have to be educated.
Victoria Volk 1:04:29
And that was my question too, is circling back to the symptoms. But isn’t that someone who’s in already a manic state that they’re talking fast or can someone who is just in a depressive state still be exhibiting symptoms like that, or characteristics of that?
Bob Krulish 1:04:47
If they’re in a depressive state, they would have a symptom like that, but what you would try to do if you’re trying to find out if they’ve ever had a manic episode is to see if they’ve ever had symptoms. like that in the past? Because that’s a really good question to ask yourself is, you know, do I have any Have I ever exhibited any of the symptoms in my past? I’m about to go on an antidepressant. That’s harmful. If I have bipolar? How do I know, if I’ve ever been mad? And then ask those questions. That’s why I think the education needs to be just about anybody, and everybody, it just doesn’t need to be with people who are currently living with a condition or who have a loved one with it. But it could be really anybody I want to get this information to companies, you know, employers and law enforcement, to judicial system. legislators, doctors, you know, and people, teachers, Oh, my gosh, how cool would this be, if this was taught, you know, and understood somewhere, you know, along the line, it would be amazing. And that would stop here and just prevent so much loss, there’s just so much loss around the stillness, that probably cost billions of dollars the loss, and, and we can really eliminate almost all of it, I think, it’s worth just understanding what the heck is going on. And understanding that when a person’s manic, they are not going to be able to see it, they just won’t be able to understand it. And unless you can give them a lot of good, good evidence, of their manic behavior, without insulting them, and without shaming them without judging them, you know, and, and that’s, that’s a lot of the work that I do is teaching people how to communicate properly, so that they don’t end up making the other person upset. Because if you upset the other person, then you what ends up happening is that many people, whenever in mania will lose all of our friends. Because eventually they just don’t get it. And we’re done with them. We’re done. We’re done with people like that. I’ve lost hundreds of friends, either I didn’t want anything to do with them, because they were too stupid at the time. Or they didn’t want anything to do with me, because I told them, they were too stupid. So, we never got back together.
Victoria Volk 1:07:34
So how has your life changed? How long have you been like under control, had it under control?
Bob Krulish 1:07:43
Probably for a few years, I feel like I’ve had it under control, probably for about three years. And I’ve been medicated for 11 years, I’d say the first eight years was challenging in that we went through a lot of different medications to try to find the right combination of meds. with bipolar, it’s never just one man, it’s usually a combination of meds could be 234567 bands that you’ve taken same time, and we call it a cocktail. And so it took a while to really find a cocktail that worked for me. Now I’m got it well under control, I don’t have any kind of outbursts, I don’t really have any, any signs of mania. And I have very little depression, I take a mood stabilizer to keep the mania away, I take an antidepressant and keep the depression away. And I can live in this little range, you know, they call a new thymic you know, where you’re just in a very normal mood. Instead of being in this range, I’m in this range. You know, in like a normal person, I still have to work really hard at my cognitive thinking to I still have to have the weekly therapy. I still have to see my doctor, I check in with my doctor once a month. And we go over how it’s going. And so those are some of the things that have helped me to stay well. Really just having a big awareness of the illness, understanding the medication, understand therapy, understanding some coping strategies, as helped me to be well with it. And so for the past, I’d say three or four years I’ve been doing really well with it. And I’ve been able to reach out and help others which is the most fun you know, I whether I’m giving a speech somewhere or giving a talk somewhere or doing a workshop or working with people one on one. That’s always the best part of it now for me and it’s another good reason for me to stay healthy because I’m like, I’m trying to be an example to all these people, simply the worst, be the worst if I wasn’t getting enough sleep every night, or, you know, I had to take my own advice pretty seriously.
Victoria Volk 1:10:15
Yeah, they’re also your helper pills. Right? Cause you’re a ripple creator now.
Bob Krulish 1:10:20
I am a ripple creator, I’ve noticed that it really is pretty humbling to know that and, and I’ve gotten a lot of positive comments back from people. To me, it’s kind of like a, like a spiritual place, you know, where you just feel like I’ve been given this gift now that I can help people with the gift of having bipolar in and it’s really, you know, I’m always overwhelmed. When I hear the comments that I get or read the emails that I get. I’m like, What are you talking about, you know, when an essay, I remember one woman wrote and said, I was just about to divorce my husband. I’m so ready to divorce him. And then I saw your videos on Facebook. And I’m gonna give it another chance. I think I understand this now. And I’m, like, so grateful. And I had that video made, you know, yeah, it’s really a good feeling.
Victoria Volk 1:11:25
You are the Tony Robbins for bipolar disorder, full circle.
Bob Krulish 1:11:31
Yeah, this kind of full circle.
Victoria Volk 1:11:36
I have to tell you something too, 2014, that was the first program I purchased was empower the empowered.
Bob Krulish 1:11:45
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s great. You might even go into the map, the massive action plan in that program? I don’t know. But that was, yeah, that’s great.
Victoria Volk 1:12:00
There is an opportunity for lightness in the dark, right?
Bob Krulish 1:12:04
There is, there is it helps when it helps to have company in the dark, you know, like, and what I mean by that is, like, like the thing I didn’t like about people. The advice that I hated the most was when people would say, I know how you feel, and it’ll get better. And I’m like, I didn’t know you had bipolar disorder. I didn’t know you lost your family. I didn’t know you had all this happened to you. And they’re like, no, and that didn’t happen. But I just know, you know, you don’t know. No, no. But when I started going to the National Alliance on Mental illness, or they say Nami, Nami see acronym, they have these support group meetings. And I went to a support group. And then I heard people say about the realness, you know, there were people that really did know, there were people that could sit with me in a darkness. Because they been there, you know, and that made all the difference in the world. When I finally started meeting people that really knew what I was going through. So I always say to people, we got to get you in a support group right away, I got to get to meeting people that have this. And so so when they say, like, everybody always says, it’s okay for me to say, it’ll get better. Because I know. I know, from the inside out, I’ve been there. And that that was really the most helpful thing. I probably did. And besides just learning everything I could about the illness was finding other people with it. Thank you for saying that about a Tony Robbins thing. That’s nice.
Victoria Volk 1:13:56
You are a ripple creator. I see it. It’s happening. I someday I am champing for a law, or some changes, big changes for you. I’m cheering you on.
Bob Krulish 1:14:12
Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:14:15
So, I feel like this was very helpful. I just I had chills so many different times, as I heard you talk. And I think you answered a lot of the questions too, that I feel like yeah, it was good. Very good. Your book, it’s coming out in June 2021, right?
Bob Krulish 1:14:36
Yeah, 2021.
Victoria Volk 1:14:38
I love, love, love the title when screams become whispers I just I love it. I really, I can’t wait to read it.
Bob Krulish 1:14:46
People can go to Amazon and pre ordered if they want. It just won’t get it for a while. But it’s already up on Amazon. I find that to be fun. The people can do that. Yeah, the title is great. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:15:04
And where else can people find you? You mentioned you have a course that you’re working on. Correct? But you also mentioned you had some videos?
Bob Krulish 1:15:11
Yeah, they go to either bobkrulish.com or they can go to Facebook and go to my bipolar solutions page.
Victoria Volk 1:15:23
I will get that information from Bob, and I will put everything that you need to get in touch with him to all the resources that he mentioned in the show notes. So, look for those there. Bob, I thank you. Thank you so much. I, I followed my intuition when I came across your bio and your information.
Bob Krulish 1:15:45
So nice of you to say, thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:15:49
I’m just so glad to have you here. So, thank you so much for shedding light on this very important topic. I shared your message. All right, everybody. That is today’s episode, give your feedback, I absolutely do not doubt it’s amazing. But until next time, my friends and when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Suicide |
David Woods Bartley Part II: The Practical Pieces of Suicide Prevention and More
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**This episode is Part II – Listen to Part I HERE*
David is a mental health speaker, educator and holds certifications in Mental Health First Aid for adults and youth, SafeTALK (Suicide Awareness for Everyone), and the suicide prevention technique known as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer), which he mentions in this episode.
In Part I, David shared his story around a day like no other – the day he was going to end his life jumping off of the Foresthill Bridge in California, the 4th highest bridge at 730 feet. A passerby followed their intuition and called 9-1-1 and, his life was saved that day. But, that was only the beginning of his lifelong battle with clinical depression.
As he describes it, David found his way from “mental hellness to mental wellness.” Through his experience of owning and operating a non-adoption animal sanctuary where he and his then-wife took in animals that were sick, lame, or old – he relates his life through stories of working with the animals and what they taught him over the years.
- In Part II, David shares some practical advice for loved ones who witness someone suffering from suicidal ideation and depression and two thoughts: what I call myths of suicide prevention.
- We talk about the role forgiveness played in his life and road to mental wellness and how he’s found his way from self-loathing to self-love (which, for him, has been an ongoing challenge).
- Through the storytelling, he helps the topic of depression, suicidal ideation, and mental health overall be more relatable and helps others to see those struggling with more compassion.
Some of my favorite “Wisdom-Drops” from David in both episodes:
- “People don’t die of mental illness,’ David says, ‘they die from hopelessness.”
- “Connection creates hope. And, hope saves lives.”
- “Sometimes, what hurts the most cannot be seen. And sometimes, what helps the most is easy to do.”
- “Four words that changed my life [as said by my psychiatrist]: It’s not your fault.”
- “If people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut.”
- “Without mental health, there is no health.”
- “Hope awakens harmony.”
Resources from both episodes:
Connect with David:
Victoria Volk 00:08
Hey there. Before we get into this week’s episode, I just want to give a reminder that this is part two. Part One went live last week, the full interviews with David Woods Bartley, He is an educator in suicide prevention, and shares his story through his own experience in this week’s episode, where he talks about how you can’t drag someone from mental health illness to wellness but gives practical tips about what you can do. He also talks about how suicide isn’t the most preventable, preventable death, kind of the myths around that. And some other things you mentioned as well, but we also dig into forgiveness and the role that it played in his life. And he also shares this beautiful quote that I want to share with you right now. It’s by Dr. Drew Ramsey, a psychiatrist and he said, someone you see today, your smile, your question, your love could save them. Trust me, they told me it did. This is a very info packed episode as well as part one, I hope you listen to them both. If you want to reach out to David, you can find him on his website at davidwoodsbartley.com. I’ll also put David’s contact information in the show notes as well as all the resources mentioned in this episode, and the last one, enjoy. And thanks for listening. You know, one of the saddest things for me is to witness people who don’t see their own magnificence. don’t even see their own potential. And I think the status thing, I’m getting emotional, the status thing about it is that so many lives are snuffed out that who knows what they could have been? Yeah. And I think of especially kids. You know, when I reached out to you it was, we learned of a suicide in my area of a ninth grader. And, and I was actually the day that I emailed you.
David Woods Bartley 03:01
Really?
Victoria Volk 03:01
Yes. The day that I emailed you, after I emailed you, I heard of that I learned of that suicide, and it just makes me incredibly sad. How do you help someone see their own magnificence in their own potential?
David Woods Bartley 03:17
It’s, it’s really hard. I mean, one of the things that I tell people is, and here’s the question I get, it’s a variation of what you just asked me, Victoria is, I have somebody that I love, and they, they they’re not willing to help. And I say, here’s the thing, you cannot drag somebody from illness to wellness, you can you can take them, you can force him to go to a doctor’s appointment and stand over him to happen take meds, but it’s not gonna work. I mean, there’s no longevity. And so I think to go back, and in the midst of somebody’s pain, it’s the initial step before we go solution oriented. And that’s our, our loving intent or altruistic motivation. I think first, it’s to create the space to understand the depth of despair that they feel. And again, that may sound counterintuitive. But until we clear that out a little bit way, a little way, there’s no way they can see them like that we have to park the clouds a little bit. And the only way I think we can do that is to allow them to express and then the follow up if we can do that. The follow up is in what are the circumstances what’s going on in which you feel good by what’s happening? And then they’re gonna say, well, for me, it was working with the animals and I’m like, wow, what, what’s it like? Like, can you tell me a story? Can you do anything? And you say, Okay, well, you know, with Joshua, what was it like in that moment? When you held Joshua at this man gave him to you? It’s almost indescribable. I said, you know, do you think what did you have to do with that? I mean, how did you participate? I mean, I guess you didn’t have to take that dog. Right? Yeah. So, one of the things that might below psychiatrists, Dr. C has suggested because I still have these negative cognitions. And they come on a regular basis, not my beloved in my former wife, amazing. My beloved summers amazing. Summer is particularly interested; she hates to see me suffer. And so, what she’ll do is she’ll say, okay, honey, I want you to write down the top five, negative cognitions, that you’re having worthless, not gonna be a good dad, whatever they are. So, say, okay, she listens in this profound way. And then she’ll say, Okay, I hear you. Alright, I think she’ll say, well, I saw you do this, right? And then didn’t you do this, and then you took a short outline what she’s confronting the negative cognitions with just factual statements. And it’s incredibly effective. It is unbelievable. And I keep all them because the negative cognitions will come back. So, I bring that into an answer here that I think one it’s important, just like with summer, what summer does is, let’s first we need to express what is what’s the negativity that’s holding us down right now. And then, to change the conversation to potentially allow somebody to just catch a glimpse of a different perspective, just a little bit of a glimpse. And then maybe explore it a little bit better, or just a little bit more to say, what, okay, here’s what I saw. You know, what do you think about that, you know, there was one that like, I’m never going to be, I’m not going to be a good enough provider and everything else. And so someone says, Well, I think right now you pay for our cell phones, right? Yeah, I do. And then you pay for this right now. And then the other month, you paid for our electric bill and these other things, he says, you know, for me, that’s indication of somebody providing for a family, it is so incredibly effective at changing and really taking dismantling those negative cognitions doesn’t mean that negative cognitions are going to come back. But in that moment, the relief is almost indescribable.
Victoria Volk 07:04
Giving you proof of the opposite being true.
David Woods Bartley 07:07
Exactly. And we can’t do that alone. It’s impossible. I can’t I don’t think we can. You know, we need solitude, but solitude to choice, isolation is not. And so, we need to have time to meditate to contemplate whatever. But we also need the help of other people and for as 57 years old, as middle-aged man, like it’s okay to ask for help. But it’s impossible to become well, it’s impossible to resolve grief, in my opinion, alone. I don’t think he can do it.
David Woods Bartley 07:40
I can’t be mentally healthy alone. It’s impossible.
Victoria Volk 07:43
The healing community for sure.
David Woods Bartley 07:48
Exactly. And hopefully I think, you know, the juxtaposition in terms of the anks in the despair that’s going on now, that is hallmarked by isolation. More and more than I realize, okay, really the only answer to this the simple answers is be connected. You know, you got to be.
Victoria Volk 08:05
On the national news that no, no the other night. I don’t know if you saw it, but they showed it was like a before and after picture of elderly in, in long term care facilities. And it was, it was just, I mean, just Google it. It was on NBC News. But the before and after of a matter of just like, with COVID the I couldn’t even believe the pictures. It was like two different people like one in particular I’m thinking of her face was full. She had you know, color and her cheeks and was smiling. And the next one, it’s like, she was on her side her cheeks sunken in, she was on her deathbed. And isolation is taking so many people too soon.
David Woods Bartley 08:55
Wow. This is you know, I think the monster is licking his chops. And this is exactly what he wants. This is a it’s exactly so we had a one of the horses that came to the sanctuary of his horse named big cloud, he was this beautiful village, smaller Quarter Horse jetblack. He had grade in the face. It’s beautiful. And well, what has happened was some I’ve used this word liberally person had entice big cloud into a trailer, probably with some sweet gray writing, taking them away from where it was, and so big clouds but I think I’ll go for a ride or whatever. Well, this person moves him out Victoria to this desolate place brings takes the cloud out of the trailer and then drives away leaves there to die. And I think that that’s you know, it’s interesting. It’s a paradox that I know a lot of people, a lot of people I’ve heard it’s not uncommon to hear from people who suffer from schizophrenia and hearing voices that at the beginning, the voices are, they’re friendly, they’re supportive, they’re causing depression at the beginning. There is a certain familiarity and comfort around it. It’s kind of It’s weird. be heard. And so I mentioned that because I think that that’s the sweet grain that these maladies entice us into this vehicle. But ultimately, they transport us to isolation and leave us to not. Now in big clouds case, by the grace of life, a ranger in his non regular route discovered this horse, likewise, this horse here and he came to live with us and lived an amazing life fell in love with Dolly. Dolly was this older white Arabian, oh my god, he was so smitten. And you know what’s interesting about that, so they were always together, Dolly Dodd. And Deanna in her brilliance, she allowed big cloud to just stay on this week, the render, we couldn’t do anything with her body for like four days. So, she was covering everything else. Victoria, big cloud stayed with her the entire time never left. And when the rendering truck came to take her body where we had DNS, and we need to let cloud be here, and so he saw her body be taken away. And then he stayed in the pasture for a while. And then at one point after time, he went back to the other pasture and stood at the gate saying, you know, I’m ready to rejoin her. So, it was solid at the sanctuary so many different times in which animals so openly revealed and expressed and then ultimately resolved their grief that they didn’t, they didn’t try to avoid it. Just like okay, we’re gonna delve into it head on. And I think in that regard, they were very mentally well, and you know, it’s funny because looking back now, DNI had established a whole person care system for the animals because we cook for him, we have practitioners come to their body was taken care of their psychological being was was supported in a safe environment. And then they were connected. They had a foundation, albeit a spiritual certainty about what was going on. And so, I think that model, if we transpose it, or transfer it to as an example for human wellness, that’s it.
Victoria Volk 12:07
Learn from nature, right?
David Woods Bartley 12:10
Oh, man, I mean, even talk about some working on a book. It’s funny. just laugh at the title. It came from life didn’t come from me. So, book is they pooped, we scooped unexpected wisdom picked up, sank in an animal sanctuary.
Victoria Volk 12:28
Sounds like a movie.
David Woods Bartley 12:31
These are there’s all these different stories.
Victoria Volk 12:35
There is though, is there a movie based on a true story of a man that opened an an animal sanctuary?
David Woods Bartley 12:42
No, no, yeah, there’s I think there’s a couple one is think didn’t mess, Matt Damon played in the one.
Victoria Volk 12:50
Here we opened an animal sanctuary, I think that was leaving the title.
David Woods Bartley 12:56
There’s some amazing people who are doing great work and sanctuaries, all over the, you know, the granddaddy of them all his best friends in Utah, they have somewhere close to 3000 animals. There’s another one in New Hampshire called rolling dog, which is incredible. They take special needs animals. There’s a great place in Southern California called gentle barn. There’s an organization that used to be in California in New York, called Farm Sanctuary. So and then, especially in the dog, world, dog and horse in particular, there there is hundreds upon hundreds of small independent rescue organizations that come to be because of an individual’s love for a particular role. I guarantee there’s a havanese rescue, certainly our Boston Terrier rescues and everything. And these people work, basically with no money. And they, they’re tireless because they want to help this these beings that means so much to him. So a lot of our animals came from different frontline rescue organizations, when they had an animal that was almost impossible to adopt, because we didn’t know adoption. So, they would give us the old ones and the sick ones. And so, there are great people out there doing amazing work.
Victoria Volk 14:11
How did you move beyond that grief of losing that thing that was so important to the sanctuary? I mean, and your spouse? I mean, at the time, too, I mean, you lost everything.
David Woods Bartley 14:24
Oh, it was. Yeah, I’m still processing it. I still. And you know, it’s interesting, Victoria, it’s, you know, again, our timing, I just realized this at the moment I in particular, and I’m sure there’s some part of the COVID thing I also think in an ongoing commitment. The one thing I’ll give myself credit for is to be incredibly consistent on self care. that some of the other things have been processed and moved away and so like you had talked about there’s there’s some, I mean, we all I shared with you we had 90 animals dying 20 years I mean, it was so busy, sometimes an animal would die. In the morning, and then another new one would come in the afternoon because there was so few places for the type of animals in that state would come. And so, right, it’s just finishing last couple months, like the grief around the sanctuary in the loss to say, tan. And so I try to remember, grief has arrived, not to annihilate me, but to support me, to allow me to cry a lot. I write different stories, when I tell these stories about the animals, I still have shame around the fact that I lost everything. And that is dangerous, because then that can, the monster can grab ahold of that. So I would love to say that I have processed all my grief, but there are some parts, you know, I may continue to grieve for maybe the rest of my life. And you know, I don’t say that in a debilitating way. It’s just, it’s really, you know, to have something in which I thought was going to be the rest of my life to have it be taken away. It’s That’s hard. Yeah, really, really difficult. But thankfully, I don’t, I don’t endeavor I, I am working my way through with a lot of people now like in with you, that I get to have this beautiful relationship with you, somebody I can talk specifically about grief work.
Victoria Volk 16:26
Well, and I don’t think we necessarily ever arrive unless we become the monks. You know, I think we’re always going to be processing and peeling back the layers and kind of really learning how to unlearn a lot of the unhelpful and hurtful things that we put in our backpacks. You know, growing up as children, because actually, this circles back to a point that I actually wanted to bring up is that when trauma doesn’t have to be molestation, right, sexual abuse, anything like that, and I want to circle back to that, because one of the very first losses children often have is a pet loss. Right? So, coming back to like, you know, Animal Sanctuary and things like that, that can be traumatic for a child. And pet loss and miscarriage are two of the most minimize losses. And so, what is a parent’s first instinct when the child loses a pet? was okay, Johnny, we’ll get another one. Right, David, let’s just go to the pet store, we can get another one. Not really acknowledging and let the child process and share how they their feelings of losing the first pet that they felt connection to. Right, right. Let’s just replace it. So that’s the very first lesson most of us receive as children about how to process grief. We don’t process it, we just replace it with something else. Right? Something else to make us feel better, right?
David Woods Bartley 17:55
I agree. 100%. And I think not to shame myself, and I can without it being an excuse. I think how busy DNI were, I mean, on the one hand, you could say, well, didn’t you do that? Didn’t you just replace them? And say no, I mean, I think was different. And I think one of the things you know, both Deanna and I would agree, the sanctuary became too big. And you know, we should have topped Captain at a certain amount. Maybe there would have been spaces in our, in our life at that point to be able to process loss. And every animal that that transition did so in an incredibly dignified, beautiful manner, it was there was a ceremony and this beautiful accord, and they were, I used to tell the animals, okay, here’s your job, you know, your job is to be adored. That’s it. That’s all you got to do. And so they were cared for and loved in ways that were extraordinary and passed in their own time. And just the remnants of it, you know, remain on me. It’s, it is it is hard, but I know grief is not here to beat me up. No grief in you and I talked about this, it’s, it sounds almost weird, but grief is my friend.
Victoria Volk 19:08
It’s my teacher. It’s been my teacher.
David Woods Bartley 19:11
Yeah, it’s, you know, and then you know, grief of losing my father grief of losing my innocence, all these different things that, you know, there’s so many aspects of grief and like trauma is trauma and grief is grief. It’s all individualized, it’s personal. It doesn’t something that doesn’t traumatize me Can traumatize you. Doesn’t, you know why? And so we need to just be accepting and there’s no timetable for healing of trauma, or healing of grief. Take as long as you need.
Victoria Volk 19:35
Time just passes. It’s the action you take in time that matters.
David Woods Bartley 19:41
You know, what, between the two dashes in terms of dates, time we live in a time.
Victoria Volk 19:47
Is there anything else? I mean, I feel like this was such a very, very deep good conversation.
David Woods Bartley 19:55
Oh, I just I’m so blessed that we’ve connected.
Victoria Volk 19:59
I feel like there needs to be too Like a part two or something?
David Woods Bartley 20:02
I have a lot more stores there is this saying I would highly recommend Johanns TED Talk is. And he tells the story, this goes back the whole thing of connection that this was a scientific study that we’ve all heard of it that, you know, they put a rat in a cage and there was a bottle of cocaine laced water and regular water rat always went to the cocaine loweswater killed himself, like, Oh, my God, that’s what humans are doing. Somebody came along later and said, Hold on, rats are very social, you’ve isolated this being. So they recreated the experiment. And so they made like rat topia, there were other rats that were hills, there were tunnels, there was food, and there was water, and the same two bottles, didn’t drink cocaine, didn’t really make sense because they were connected. They’re part of a tribe. So you know, we, especially around grief, as somebody takes what we would consider in our, in my ignorance, what’s taking me too long, not so much now, but it’s taking you too long to get over. This. Doesn’t matter how long it takes, it’s okay. But if we, if they feel misunderstood, they’re going to retreat. And then they’re going to fall back into the caustic arms of the monster. And there’s where be like, it’s kind of like big cars going into that. That horse trailer. There’s a certain bizarre enticement, and nobody understands me. But this feeling of despair, if nothing else is familiar. And there’s a certain comfort because I know what it feels like I can hang out here because nobody understands. But people think I’m being stupid people. People don’t understand that I can’t get out of bed, because depression is literally weighing me down. Why am I crying? I can’t do my job, or whatever it is why? Why did I want to kill myself? Why have I attempted suicide? Not my case. But why am I cutting? Why? Why have I attempted suicide more than one? Whatever it is, because we don’t understand when people when we feel misunderstood, we’re going to retreat, we’re going to retract. And if we get too far down into that hole, it’s like that beautiful ninth grader. There’s no coming back? No one. I don’t know. They say, I don’t know if I agree with this, per se. You know, they say that suicide is the most preventable form of death? No, you know, I think I think the problem I have with that is there’s one way that that comes out is that it’s all our responsibility to save one another. And that’s how I think that’s true. I mean, there are certain people that are gonna die from suicide. It’s just That’s a fact. It’s just the way that it is. And I’m not being cavalier about that. But that that’s just the way that it is you cannot drag somebody to wellness, there needs to be a responsibility on the person. I’m not saying it’s easy. But I think, to suggest it’s the most preventable form of death. What that also would say is that the that it’s a person is capable of completely resolving trauma and grief and everything else. And I think sometimes it’s just, I think it’s too much. It’s just too much. And I say it to just to add in, I think what’s important is an aspect of realism. Because I think if we don’t, and we lose somebody to suicide, I think we feel like we fail. And then we feel misunderstood. So I think it’s, you know, I’m contrarian to some of the things that are said in regards to it. The other. The other thing that comes up, which I don’t agree with, is this whole notion that we those of us who are contemplating and then attempt suicide, really what we should do, we need to know what the impact is going to be in other people. And I’m like, okay, that’s illogical, because in that moment that I was going to kill myself, I honestly believe that Deanna and the sanctuary, and everybody would be far better off. So, you’re asking me to consider something that’s completely arbitrary to how I feel in the moment. I’m not saying that that’s not important. But I think if we try to have that be like, as a missionary statement, like, Okay, well, we’re gonna add suicide as if people realized in that moment that it was the ripple effect would be devastating. Okay. That doesn’t work.
Victoria Volk 24:07
You wouldn’t be having that conversation, if you know.
David Woods Bartley 24:15
It helps me now. When summer my sweetheart will sit with me. And if I have a suicidal thought, and we’ll talk about what would be the impact, there’s a likelihood is negligible at this point, but I still have a thought, and someone will say, what would the impact be like on grace, like, Okay, I get it, like now, I understand. But I wouldn’t have understood that nine years ago. You have to arrive at this point of understanding and so I just think, you know, as we as we endeavor to overcome these maladies, we have to approach it differently. And I think there’s a lot of good messages which if you look at what we can do for a suicidal friend is first talk to him. You know, and that’s why question persuade, refer, just question the person, persuade them to stay alive and then refer them to get Help it CPR for mental health, your new are completely capable of doing that now. And it’s leveraging, ultimately understanding to create connection. That’s it. And then you escort them, you journey with them, you companion with them to, to somebody who can offer professional support. Our job is not to save people. That’s not what we’re supposed to do. Our actions ultimately may, but if we go into that, with that our intent, we’re going to screw it up.
Victoria Volk 25:29
Two things I want to bring up before we close our conversation. In grief recovery, we try to get people to understand that they don’t need to take 100% responsibility for themselves or their lives, they only need to take 1% responsibility, or at least just 1% responsibility. So my next question for you then is what role did forgiveness play for you? Not only of yourself, but for others in your turning your life around.
David Woods Bartley 26:04
That’s such a great life quote. Yeah, that’s, I mean, the most difficult has been Of course, to forgive myself, which I still have a hard time. And there’s where the negative cognition sitting with my beloved. Yeah, I mean, there were some folks especially at the end, that I think the ending could have been really different in terms of how the sanctuary ended. And it’s interesting if you Google, my name, like the second thing that comes up is this person who was a board member accused us of fraud at the end, which ultimately, there was none. And then if you read through the whole article, it was like how many 10s of 1000s of dollars that we gave and everything else but I mean, just so I forgiven that person, you know, to to you know, I remember hearing somebody say that, when you if I were to hold anger with somebody, in fact, what I’ve done is really I’ve I’ve connected myself with them energetically. And so the forgiveness is probably more beneficial for me than for them and then I think maybe probably one of the worst things I could do is if I ever saw this person again is to say well I forgive you Well, they may not think they’ve done anything that needs to be forgiven. And so the forgiveness is about me and it’s, it’s better and I’m getting better and better and better and the more that I’m able to do it, it’s it helps so I think I have forgiven and I’ve taken responsibility I’ve endeavored to make amends to my former beloved and our neighbors and in the things in the slight errors that I thought that I’ve made and to express my grief and sorrow that things didn’t end differently so I feel like I’ve done the best that I could do to make amends to take responsibility and there’s still some remnants so and so anytime I have a thought of unforgiveness for others I try to process that and in order to be fully transparent I still have a really difficult time forgiving myself tar I think actually I should have done this different I should have done this differently and there’s you know, thank God because of the extraordinary soul I have as a partner and then the other one that I had to the other person who just helped me to look at Okay, you know what? Yes, mistakes happen you know, there’s somebody a dear friend of mine was given a talk and talked about this whole thing forgiveness and she said well maybe look at it this way if it happened again, would you do the same thing? like wow, no, I wouldn’t I would have done a whole bunch of stuff to at the core would still be taken care of zero but there would be a whole bunch of stuff that she says okay, then you learn from it. You know, ultimately, you got to give yourself a break, at least for me.
Victoria Volk 28:44
So that ties in to my neck, next question or point or thing you want to ask you so in grief and when you feel like that when you have that shame and things like that we have this self self loathing. So, what does self love the opposite of self loathing? What does self love look like to you now?
David Woods Bartley 29:05
That’s difficult too. So, I’m really good at working out and and yet, there’s almost no morning that I wake up Hey, ready to go workout? And yet I do my thing you know, and it’s so what I will oftentimes do is I’ll look in the mirror and say, you know what, you didn’t want to do it. And you did it. That’s really good. So I’ll I will look for ways small ways in which I can use the word stomach that’s maybe not much I can accept acknowledgement of myself like okay, you know, you’ve done a good job and so I think that’s at the feeling emotional level, in which I can look at myself sometimes literally, because I have a body dysmorphia thing i’m sure from being raped and some other stuff, but I just I don’t like to look at myself and I will endeavor to try to force Myself and then give myself some sort of affirmation, which is not, I think the best thing that I will say to myself, and it feels good to say, You know what? You’re good. Do you really, you’re really good. Do you really endeavouring. Yeah. And when I do, it feels really good. So it’s a work in progress. I wish, I really wish it wasn’t so hard. You know, I’ve battled myself for 50 some years, and I still do. It would be, you know, I have some momentary feeling experiences when I’m not when I’m not in opposition myself. And it’s God that feels good. You know, like, if my own worst enemy is myself, like, that person just didn’t show it that, that it’s, it’s tough. You know, I, I don’t know, if I’d have the same level of difficulty if I didn’t have this condition. And, and I was thinking to kind of serve all the way back. Would I have this condition without the trauma that I experienced? I don’t know. I mean, I would venture to say no, because my three brothers who I adore, they don’t have this. They don’t have the same father. They were older when my dad died, but they hadn’t suffered this other trauma. So, thank God that kind of meandering question modern answer was?
Victoria Volk 31:11
No, it’s, I think, I think we could probably talk for another two hours. I just want to share, there’s one book that I read not long ago. I don’t know if you’ve read it but breaking the habit of being yourself. Dr. Joe dispenza, just ties in with what we were just talking about. Because you said something, and that reminded me of the book title. And the other book I’m reading right now is love yourself, like your life depends on it? And I think it does. Yes. And I think that’s, I’m not quite halfway through it. But I think you’ll like that book, too. Just talking about self loathing to self love. And I think just sharing what I’ve shared, and you share what you shared, I just think that the the one truth that I feel now, for me, is true for me, I don’t know that we can give to others what we can’t give to ourselves.
David Woods Bartley 32:05
No, I agree. You know what, I totally agree. And so, you know, I feel no pressure. But I’m motivated to resolve this within myself, so I can give it to the kids and my beloved, and the world. But no, I agree. What’s theirs. I mean, use the G word just, just because it’ll put it in better context is a great minister, who has since made his transition, but a big influence. I love his talking. It said, God can only do for us what God can do through us. So, in other words, so yeah, it’s, you know, we can’t give away what we don’t have to possible. And there’s where, you know, I think this whole aspect of self care, if you say, well, you need to prioritize yourself can put yourself on a pedestal persona, you got to put other people first, okay, you know what, that’s doomed to failure. If your compass empty, if your tank is empty, you have nothing to give. So, if I have if I if my if I’m able to love myself, orlin put it this way. I’m gonna be able to love the kids and summer to the extension of myself. When I switch it like that, I’m like, Okay, all right, I got to make a change, because I want to love more precisely because makes me feel good. You know, I feel good. And if that’s selfish, so be it. But the better I feel, the more I’m able to be of service to other people. I get to read something. This is the other book. My grandfather’s blessing to check this out. By show off girl, frickin brilliant. I would love this would be on my this is on my bucket list now is to meet Dr. Rehman, she lives in Northern California, she must be hiding because I can’t find her. Anyway, this is so cool. She says the best definition of service I have come across is the single word belonging, service is the final healing of isolation and loneliness is the lived experience of belonging. So it’s all these things that we do in support of one another, ultimately, were the greatest benefactor. Because, you know, when we feel like I certainly feel the same way when we feel like we belong to something to somebody somewhere at some time in some place to all good, you know, or at least it makes it it’s culpable. if that’s a word, that’s a word, but yeah, it’s it’s the last day last year I’ll let you go because I could talk to you for hours. Hope awakens harmony, and here’s what so we had two puppies at the sanctuary. Most everybody else so we went one non rescue dog. Her name is crazy about Boston Terrier, so help with this brindle colored, gorgeous, cute, ridiculously wonderful pop, and so on. While we are waiting for hope to be weaned from her mom, Deanna went on the dreaded Petfinder, which is the best pet adoption site in the world. And she came to me and she says, you know, what do you think about this? And it was this picture of an eight, another eight week old Boston Terrier puppy, but jetblack with this very devilish smile. I’m like, why is this dog on Petfinder? We’ll come to find out she was 100% deaf. And I’m like, What in the hell of a deaf dog Well, I lost thankfully, I lost the argument and we got harmony. So we picked up help harmony on a Sunday help on a Monday. And so here’s what would happen I would come into the house and hope would come to greet me. And then she would turn around and she’d go wake up or sister harmony who couldn’t hear then she bring harmony so hope awakens harmony, and then be there and all hope and harmony wanted to do is just be with me, there was no demands that just wanted me to get on my hands and my knees and to cover me with kisses and affirmations and love and to say, Papa, come sit down on the, on the couch with us and let’s take a nap. And, and I think it’s the same thing in our life is that hope never comes alone. Hope always brings something with it. It can be patience and understand. I think it oftentimes is harmony, because inherent in harmony. When things are harmonious. Like there’s a certain aspect of certainty and reliability, like you know what, it’s all gonna be okay. And so whatever we can do, to step into the door, and to be welcomed by hope we can be guaranteed that hope is going to awaken something else most often. It’s going to be harmony.
Victoria Volk 36:42
There’s another book title.
David Woods Bartley 36:43
I know. I know. Hope awakens harmony, I know. And harmony, she had the loudest bark. I mean, it was screeching. I don’t know cuz she couldn’t hear us. I mean, she was 100 people to just want to get her hearing check them like, Okay, let me show you. Let me scream at her. But the other thing is, hope has an aroma. Hope has a certain sense. So, in the times when say hope was with mom or something, and I would walk into the house and harmony was fast asleep hence the truth. The truth is deaf dogs get the best sleep in the house, that’s just so in those instances in which hope wasn’t there to Awakener I would walk up. And this is what happened every time. Sometimes it was instant. Sometimes it would take a minute, harmony, all of a sudden, Victoria, her head would swing I mean just pop up. Like all of a sudden she could hear and I yelled her name. Well, her said was so enhanced because of her deafness, you have to think and then out of the million different sense somehow she could distinguish mine. And what she would do is her head would pop up and then she would focus her eyes and she would see was me and she’d come running up me and dive literally put her head right in the middle of my chest and move back and forth and then take like little bites of my skin. Or like she was with this part me this, this being that meant more to her than anything in the world. And so she was awakened by the realm of hope. And again, I think that your we can be in this catatonic state of grief or mental illness or whatever it is. And that little essence of hope it has a very distinct aroma. It can awaken us from our slumber and ideally, you know, move us into a different place than if nothing else in the moment feels better.
Victoria Volk 38:41
So, do you think it’s part synchronicity, happenstance? And maybe a little bit of intuition as to what we find then that helps us awaken?
David Woods Bartley 38:54
Oh, absolutely. No, no, I absolutely. And I think it’s you know, there’s this great again, I don’t propose any sort of spirituality, I my own I’m radically inclusive of life, that there’s this great, and I think it’s an African proverb of prey and move your feet. So, in other words, I think we all are gifted with a sense of intuition, but then we it needs to be activated. So, serendipity, you and I, so we could have met, but never had this. So, there was the the universe gave us the gift the universe orchestrated things so that you and I could meet that system, what are we going to do with it? So, we spend this first two hours of our relationship being incredibly connected. So, I think it is but you can also do too much activity and not have enough kind of sacred consideration of what’s going on to it. So, my mother Suzanne used to always like to say she say, Honey, moderation is the key. So, mom was talking. It’s all about balance, you know, too much of anything too much. Sunshine burns. Yeah, yeah. No. So I agree with you. You said a beautiful and I think Ultimately, we know what’s in our best interest. We do. Sometimes, though, more often than not, we just need people heading down that road is too scary to do it alone. And like, I don’t need you to say anything, I just would you just please go with me? I think that this like, okay, and we can do that for one another, you know, we can drive with somebody to go to their doctor’s appointment, you know, hey, the first time you take a medication, how about I go to the pharmacy with? I may not want it but imagine somebody offering, like on the first day that you’re going to take medication? Like, would you like me to go with you to the pharmacy? We can pick that up together. And I think it is those simple acts just, they come with what I call the power of an unexpected gesture, because we don’t we don’t expect people to do those sorts of things.
Victoria Volk 40:45
So good.
David Woods Bartley 40:48
You’re so good.
Victoria Volk 40:50
Is there anything else that you would like to share?
David Woods Bartley 40:54
Yeah, I mean, the bigger the thing is, I think you can handle one more story. I’ll try to review it. I just told this. I just told us for the first-time last night, I’ve written about it. So, here’s the truth. I think what happens is we see a circumstance that goes back to this whole thing that I think oftentimes we’re we don’t think we’re qualified or capable. But what if I told you that you can save a life just by sitting down? So, one of the Boston terriers that came to the sanctuary was Doug Murphy. And again, you had to fit into one of these four categories. And when Murphy arrived, I got this stunningly gorgeous. Guy along with everybody loved him, and I’m like, okay, someone like kind of slipped him in my radar. Like he had no special need at all. But not long after he got there. The first time he ate, he ate and ate and ate and then threw up everything. So, I thought, okay, maybe he’s a little nervous. Well, it happens the next day, same thing happens the next day, same thing like okay, well, something must be wrong. Take him to the vet, to the car. I mean, his vitals are good, and we don’t know nothing’s wrong. And so it keeps going on. Well, Deanna, just this amazing soul, every animal that came to the sanctuary became her baby. And so she’s like, okay, we’re gonna figure this out. And so, lo and behold, Deanna figures out that Murphy has this thing called mega esophagus. So, in other words, his esophagus is enlarged to the point where it doesn’t contract. It can’t do its job to take the food from the mouth and the throat down to the stomach. And absent that, a dog standing on all fours. So what happens is, he’ll die because he eats. It goes partway down the throat, but the esophagus doesn’t move it along. And so he doesn’t throw up. He regurgitates it looks the same, but it’s different. So dogs die from this. So Dee is like, Okay, well, that ain’t gonna happen on my watch. So she comes up with his brilliant solution, she watches Murphy, he and she knows the point the exact time when he’s eating enough. And but he, you know, is about to regurgitate. And so she scooped him up and propped him up, head and back against her chest. And she say, okay, but sit down. And then she’d give Murphy to me, just like you would imagine, like the crown jewels being passed over. And then I would sit there with Murph, his back against my chest, his head on my shoulder, his whiskers tickling my cheek, and a lot of times, we would just fall asleep in that position, just propping him up, life as gravity did the job of malfunctioning anatomy and brought the food down into the place where then if we sat there long enough, you can consume it. And Murphy always knew when the time was up, and she’s about 3030 minutes or so, and then he would jump down and play. And so that’s how his life was saved. Save a Life by sitting down. And I think the same thing that’s happening, be it great for anything else is we can have a seat and have a conversation with somebody, we can have a seat and have a meal, we can have a seat and watch a movie, we can have a seat and go visit them. In the psychiatric hospital. We can have a seat in our car and trance and go with them somewhere. We can all save lives just by sitting down. And so I think my final message is just that. Never underestimate kind of paraphrasing, but the great Maya Maya Angelou said, never underestimate what an individual’s small act of kindness continue to change your life. And in fact, I’ll end with this last thing, and I promised I will let you go. There was an amazing psychiatrist Dr. Drew Ramsey in New York means this one quote, in which he talks about the issue of suicide as a problem and a solution. One short paragraph, these are Dr. Ramsey’s words, not mine. Dr. Ramsey tells us, someone you see today is thinking about killing themselves. Your smile, your question your love could save them. Trust me. They told me at that. That’s impactful. He’s pretty cool. He’s brilliant guy.
Victoria Volk 44:53
Well, folks, if you don’t look at your dog, the same after today.
David Woods Bartley 45:00
She’s outside the door right now kind of whining.
Victoria Volk 45:04
Oh, no, really, I mean, it makes it memorable. Like the storytelling of all the stories that you’ve shared makes it memorable. It makes it relatable. It makes it impactful. That’s genius, by the way, and I just love how you’ve tied it into your message. Thank you so much.
David Woods Bartley 45:25
Well, yeah, and all credit to my former Beloved, and the great people and amazing animals. And you are so welcome. And again, I can never thank you enough for what you’re doing, to take this topic and have it be your passion and to be of selfless service to so many people, you’re a lot like, you may not be given the gift to know how many people that you save and unburden. But it’s a new age because you don’t just help that person, that person then helps somebody else and somebody else and somebody else.
Victoria Volk 45:55
It is my mission that we talk about grief, like we talk about the weather.
David Woods Bartley 46:01
Got it, and I say let’s make mental illness, a casserole disease. And someone comes home suffering from mental illness, let’s bring them a big good, just like we would any other instance.
Victoria Volk 46:13
I love that. I love that. So many quotes.
David Woods Bartley 46:20
Kind of goofy.
Victoria Volk 46:21
No, I love it. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. Um, I’m gonna, I might do this in two parts, actually, this podcast episode.
David Woods Bartley 46:31
And please do, whatever I can do to serve you, or anybody else. You know, if somebody wants to talk, or whatever, want to hear a story, I’m here to serve my job.
Victoria Volk 46:40
I love it. Um, I’m actually going to put all the things that you mentioned in the show notes reference in the show notes. And thank you. Thank you for the work that you’re doing, for sharing your story for going first. It’s like I said, we never fully arrive. We shouldn’t be journey alone.
David Woods Bartley 47:03
No, no. Amen. Well, you are a delight and joy and I have a new lifelong parental. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your trusting conference. Thank you for choosing me.
Victoria Volk 47:15
My intuition.
David Woods Bartley 47:17
There you go. Nice. Gizmo for me.
Victoria Volk 47:21
Air hugs. Thank you so much. And everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode. or two. I think I might do two I don’t know we’ll see. But if this was helpful to you, please share it with somebody you know, or love and share the love on Apple podcasts if you don’t leave a review for David’s fantastic words of wisdom. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Suicide |
David Woods Bartley Part I: A Day Like No Other & How Connection Saved His Life
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**This episode is Part I of II: Listen to Part II HERE**
David is a mental health speaker, educator, and holds certifications in Mental Health First Aid for adults and youth, SafeTALK (Suicide Awareness for Everyone), and the suicide prevention technique known as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer), which he mentions in this episode.
David shares his story around a day like no other – the day he was going to end his life jumping off of the Foresthill Bridge in California; the 4th highest bridge at 730 feet. A passerby followed their intuition and called 9-1-1 and, his life was saved that day. But, that was only the beginning of his lifelong battle with clinical depression.
As he describes it, David found his way from “mental hellness to mental wellness.” Through his experience of owning and operating a non-adoption animal sanctuary where he and his then-wife took in animals that were sick, lame, or old – he relates his life through stories of working with the animals and what they taught him over the years.
Also in this episode, you will hear tips on what to say to someone who is dealing with depression and possibly suicidal ideation, receive an education, overall, around the topic, and learn how all of us have a role in ending the stigma associated with mental health. We also discuss mental health in kids, and the role curiosity plays in helping those suffering.
“People don’t die of mental illness,’ David says, ‘they die from hopelessness.”
Some of my favorite “Wisdom-Drops” from David in this episode:
- “Connection creates hope. And, hope saves lives.”
- “Sometimes what hurts the most cannot be seen. And sometimes, what helps the most, is easy to do.”
- “Four words that changed my life [as said by my psychiatrist]: It’s not your fault.”
- “If people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut.”
- “Without mental health, there is no health.”
Resources:
Connect with David:
Victoria Volk 00:08
Hey there, Pardon the Interruption before the episode actually starts. After I edited the two-hour podcast episode, I decided to break it up into two parts only because there’s so much information, good good information, that I felt like there needed to be some sort of time to like process what you’re listening to. Because there is so much goodness in there. And I just felt like to it would help. You’re more likely to listen to the whole thing if it’s not almost two hours long. Right? So, this is now part one with the interview with David Bartley. And in this episode, he, I mean, we talk a lot about connection. He gives practical questions to ask someone who is potentially having some suicidal ideation. He speaks of a day like no other, which was the day that he was going to jump off of the fourth tallest bridge in the country, which is near San Francisco. And it is not the Golden Gate. Actually, it’s Forest Hill bridge, which is taller than the Golden Gate Bridge. He shares that personal story and talk we talk a lot about depression itself. Mental Illness overall, he shares a lot of resources that I will probably put in the show notes for both episodes just because I feel like I don’t want anyone to miss any of the good things he had to share. Also, in this episode, he shares suicide prevention technique called QPR, which stands for question, persuade, refer. And he shared a quote by Dr. poliquin. net, which I absolutely loved. He said it’s the unasked questions that lead to tragedy. And so we talked a lot about connection. And it’s just so many amazing ways that we can support others who are dealing with depression, who may have suicidal ideation. And really, it’s so informative because I learned so much and to really hold each other’s hearts in our hands and understand that there is a battle and some people that we can’t see sometimes. So, enjoy this episode. Come back for part two. What I also failed to mention at the end of the episode is that you won’t hear at the end of this episode because it’s the first half. But at the end of Part Two, I also had forgotten to ask David where people can reach him. It was just an amazing conversation that slipped my mind but if you would like to reach out to David, you can find him on his website, David Woods bartley.com and I’ll put the link to that in the show notes. He’s also on Facebook, David W. Bartley dot five, the number five. Again, I’ll put the links in the show notes. He also has a TED talk, titled How connection saved my life. This is just an amazing conversation. I’m very proud of this episode. both parts actually is one episode split into two but enjoy, share with someone you know and love. Because you never know it could save a life. Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Today my guest is David Woods Bartley as a mental health speaker, educator and trainer. David has seen his fair share of successes and setbacks from directing a nationally recognized nonprofit to battling a life-threatening mental illness. It was the ladder a brutal knock down, drag out fight with clinical depression. That led David to a suicide attempt. Welcome to the podcast. David thank you so so much for being here. I’m excited because like I’ve shared with you before and email. And before we started to record, this is a topic, mental health, suicide prevention is something that is very much needed, I think everywhere, but I definitely feel it within, in my state and my community and surrounding area. So again, thank you for being here. And welcome.
David Woods Bartley 05:27
Thank you, Victoria, thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you’re doing not just to shine the light on mental health, but in particular grief, because I think it is, every person, not everybody will have an experience of depression or suicidal ideation. But we all experience grief. And I think that there’s, I think that there’s an equal stigma to grief. And there’s always a timeline associated if we lose somebody, then we have X number of days or weeks or months to process it. But then after that, then we are stigmatized, because we’re taking too long. So thank you for what you’re doing. Because I think in the absence of being able to process grief, I think that would lead into a condition that I experienced, which would be depression and untreated can ultimately potentially take somebody’s life.
Victoria Volk 06:13
So, tell us about that journey for you, when it started for you?
David Woods Bartley 06:19
In terms of the way I begin most talks is to talk about a day in my life that was like no other. And that was August 31 2011. And for most people this rather average Hump Day was indeed just ordinary and run of the mill. But for me, it was like no day I’d ever experienced because that was the day I was going to kill myself. And that was the day that the monster known as clinical depression, after passionately trying for close to 40 years on that day, convinced me beyond any doubt that I was worthless, useless, pitiful, grotesque, stupid, ugly, that I become an embarrassment and a burden to my family. And most damning was the fact that on that particular day, the monster convinced me not just as a passing thought, not just as maybe, but truly, albeit a logical I believed it to be true that everybody in my then life, my former wife, Deanna, my family and my friends on that day, I believe that their lives would improve exponentially in the wake of my death in the absence of my pitiful and grotesque existence. So the time I was living about 30 minutes east of Sacramento and Northern California, about two hours west of San Francisco, and I lived on this two and a half acre parcel with Deanna and I remember that day here in Northern California at the end of August, there’s no chance of rain and there’s almost never a cloud in the sky. And I remember Victoria going out that morning. And it was like Michelangelo had come down and done his version of a blue sky. And after a while being outside lived in this beautiful area, I went back into the house, I sat down at the computer and typed out my suicide note. And then without telling anybody where I was headed, I made the short 20-minute drive from our home in this little town called Penryn, to what is known as the Forest Hill bridge. Now, everybody knows the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. But almost nobody knows the Forest Hill bridge, which is the fourth tallest bridge in the country at 730 feet. It is 500 feet further off the ground, and it’s more famous cousin. And it’s important to note that this was not my first trip to the bridge. And it is universally accurate to say that suicide is almost never spontaneous, it is incredibly rare when someone just spontaneously ends their life. Most of us who suffer are plagued with suicidal ideations as I was in my case for close to four decades. And so, in imagining, wondering, planning, what and how I would in my life, I had chosen that I would jump off the foresail Bridge. And so, I’d make trips to the bridge, not in a, some sort of more morbid way, but in the thrust of grieving, and I love what Johann Hari, who has probably the best TED Talk I’ve ever seen, which is everything we know about addiction is wrong. And in johans word that the opposite the opposite of addiction is in sobriety, it’s connection. So we think about what’s happening now in isolation, and he has a further quote that says, isn’t depression in all its forms, really a form of grief, grief for the life that you thought you would have grief for the life that you did have grief for the life that you want it? So, I imagine this in suicidal ideations is just what you do. And so when I arrived at the bridge on that day, I knew exactly where I was going to park. And I remember bringing my vehicle to arrest and I turned off the ignition and then I put my hands reflexively on the temperature The position on the steering wheel took these deep breaths, opened my eyes reached over grabbed the suicide note, place that right in the center of the bag. And then I took the keys out of the ignition place those on the note exit the vehicle turned back around just to make sure the door was unlocked and then face back again crossed over the road and and came to the closest part of the bridge, the bridge deck and it’s a half mile long. And if you if you google the for-sale bridge, Vittoria view from either side is spectacular. It’s stunning. But I didn’t want to look at the view. I didn’t want to make eye contact with any of the passing drivers. Instead, I focused on a light post that stood right at the midpoint and then made my way there. And then once their turn to the left, press my body up against the suicide barrier. So hit me right about mid chest. And again, not looking at the view. Instead, I focused on the water that was flowing in the North Fork of American River. And once again, close my eyes. And I began to imagine what’s the most efficient way like how am I going to make my way over this barrier. And I done the calculation, it was going to take me seven and a half seconds to fall. I thought, what’s that going to feel like? What am I going to think? And then I thought I just somehow either want to pass out or pass away before I make impact. I mean, there’s no way I was going to survive a 700 foot drop. But I didn’t want to feel the pain. And I was so fixated, so focused in that present moment that I can’t tell you how long I was there. I don’t know. But thankfully it was long enough for a passing driver to act on a sense of something we’ve all experienced that she looked upon the scene and thought something’s not right with this picture. She picked up the phone called 911. And a sheriff’s deputy approached me from the left hand side and initially established contact, which is logistical. And then created connection which is life saving because connection creates hope. And hope saves lots was taken off the bridge and to an emergency department into a psychiatric ward where I would spend the next 15 days and when people Victoria found out I was there and why. Like, does not calculate does not compute. They couldn’t get their head around because instead of seeing me as clinically depressed, instead of seeing me as somebody who thought he was worthless, people saw me as the happy and contented co director of a nationally recognized Animal Sanctuary called a chance or bliss. And you and I talked about this a little bit Gizmo would love this place. And the sanctuary was amazing home to as many as 100 animals at any one time. 25 horses, 23 dogs, nine pot bellied pigs, goats and sheep and ducks and geese and bunnies and birds and fish and turtles and everything like no I’m sure would have been so jealous. If he came back and looked at that he’s like, wow. And as I shared with you, for an animal to come, they had to fit into one of four categories. Very old, very sick, some sort of special needs, or the vast majority were at the end of life. And so, DNI my former bride and I did no adoptions. Instead, animals came and then they stay and until they made their transition, they went to the greatest pastor of all and and we became known as this forever home in different parts of the country, even different parts of the world. And on June 2, 2010. We were the cover story in the life section of USA Today. And so, I didn’t fit the image of somebody who was mentally ill. I didn’t fit the image of somebody who was clinically depressed, somebody who was suicidal, somebody who was at a high risk to end their life to kill themselves. But I think of everything that I talk about in the in the wonderful opportunities that I’m given is this is that sometimes what hurts the most cannot be seen. Sometimes great despair, overwhelming grief, soul, crippling soul killing agony lies just behind a forced smile, a distracting joke, or in this case, a seemingly perfect and ideal life. And not even my beloved, this amazing woman she had no idea the degree of hopelessness on that dark spot on a tall, tall bridge. Just 14 short months after the mountaintop experience of England, USA Today. There I was one short movement from killing myself, but incredibly amazingly divinely, my life was saved. And on that day. On the day I thought it would be my very last day alive. It wasn’t said the first day of a brand new life and the first steps in what has now been a nine year journey away from mental health illness, and into the experience of our birthright mental health. And so that’s, that’s how I am here today to be in your loving wonderful, incredible hands to do anything I can to support that work that you Do you hope that anything that I could say would eliminate even a little bit of suffering from a soul who may be suffering at this point?
Victoria Volk 15:09
What do you think set this off the clinical depression is it’s like, I think that’s actually one of the questions I had here. What are some of the causes of mental illness and in your personal experience? what led to that day?
David Woods Bartley 15:26
So, it’s interesting, as I, as I tell, the speech that I give, the most often is called sometimes what hurts the most can’t be seen. And sometimes what helps the most is easy to do. And in the beginning of the speech, I tell that’s the intro and then I talked about in the second day in the psych hospital, I had this amazing experience with a psychiatrist. Now, a lot of times when we think about shrink, there’s no like happy image that comes to mind. But this guy walked in and it wasn’t, didn’t have a lab coat didn’t have a stethoscope. And there was just something about the energy like the thought that this guy got off, and it gave off. And what was fascinating, and I talked about this, is that he didn’t just launch into clinical questions. He what he was using, he was leveraging curiosity to create understanding, and understanding creates connection. And little did I know it then there was this kind of essence, this mist of hope, which was, felt it because it just felt different. So anyway, at one point, he had to shift after he asked these questions about the animals and everything else, and he said, two questions. No one ever asked me because they’re counterintuitive. First question was David, is there any history of mental illness in your family? And I thought, Hmm. Well, you know what, I hadn’t thought about it a lot. But my understanding is my father’s father, my paternal grandfather ended his life by suicide when my dad was really young. And then my dad died when I was young. And why don’t have any specific memories. My three older brothers shared with me that our father was horrifically and devastatingly overwhelmed with clinical depression. He didn’t die by depression, he died by cancer. But at this point in my life, now I know that the depression can weaken every part of you to make you more susceptible. And so the doctor then said to me, says, Now David, realize what you’re dealing with is depression is a medical condition. Okay, well, no one had ever said that before. And he said, because it’s a medical condition like diabetes and heart disease and all these other things, you can inherit the gene, you can inherit the predisposition, but just because you inherit that any kind of predisposition, it doesn’t mean you’re going to suffer from it instead. Oftentimes, there has to be something else. And if you can imagine the, the dry kindling of the predisposition for mental illness, something needs to light it, some sort of match and said, oftentimes, the sad news is, it’s trauma and then Victoria, I will never forget. This man shifted in his chair, in this way that I can only describe it was like compassion in form. And I love the definition by Krista Triplett, in her great TED Talk, that compassion is curiosity without assumption, like, I didn’t feel like I was just another patient. And he said, he looked at me and he said, David, have you experienced any trauma? Has there been any trauma in your life? And no one had ever asked me the question, and I thought, I was like, my brain went blank. So this man picked up the non verbal clue. And he said, Well, you, you, David, you mentioned that you were young when your father died. I said, How old were you? I said, I was seven. And he said, David, that that’s traumatic to lose a little boy and losing his father at such a young age. That’s, that’s traumatic. And then he said, has there been anything else. And Victoria, there was something else, something I had never shared. I was 48 years old at the time, but hopefully, you and others have had the experience where someone has just set the table where it’s so safe, that you are compelled to unburden your soul. And so I shifted uncomfortably, and I took a breath and I said, Doctor, when I was 11, I was sodomized and violated and tortured and raped by a Boy Scout leader. And when the words went out of my mouth, it was one of those instances in which I so desperately wanted to grab them and pull them back. I just I felt shame and guilt and all of this. And then there was this silence in which it was uncomfortable, and I didn’t know Did you not hear me or I didn’t know. But again, I know now that the sweet soul was processing and he he looked at me and he said, David, you didn’t choose your genetics. You didn’t choose your trauma. You didn’t choose to You didn’t choose suicide wasn’t your choice. And then he reached forward Victoria. He took me by the hand, and he said four words, which changed my life. He looked at me and he said, It’s not your fault. Now, he may as well been speaking Mandarin because the monster had convinced me it was my fault. I was, this was my just desserts. I had done something that was so horrific that I indeed needed to pay this price. And again, this sweet soul picked up on those nonverbal clues just held my hands just a little bit tighter and said, David, it is not your fault. And this time, I could hear him a little bit and I was allowed to stand up and longer answer your question, my call as is unfortunately, incredibly common, that there can be some form of genetic predisposition. But that in and of itself is not enough. The trauma really is the thing that not only ignites it, but left unresolved. Grief is traumatic, left on process left unshared left, examine. It’s like a smoldering Ember that ultimately will become combustible. And there’s Johann Hari is that Johan, like, He’s my friend. He wrote this great book after the TED Talk called Lost connections in which he’s a brilliant writer and a storyteller in which he says that there’s more and more data about big data person. But there’s more and more evidence that’s pointing to the impact of trauma on the the genesis of mental illness, and less and less on the genetic aspect, the genetic aspect, I think, is a contributing factor. But in the absence of trauma, I don’t know. And I’ve never heard, which doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, have an instance of mental illness that people just become mentally ill because there was this gene, I mean, it could, maybe, but in all the stories that I read about, and when people blessed me with sharing their stories, there’s always trauma. And it could be the loss of a parent, it could be the loss of a pet. I mean, you I’m preaching to the choir, in the sense grief is grief. Grief is individualized grief is, is personal grief is everybody’s grief is different. Until we dishonor people by saying that, you need to grieve this way. And people don’t realize what the impact of conditions are be aggrieved for COVID-19 or whatever it is just the vast uncertainty that we’re experiencing globally, right now. That all can Usher people into a more exacerbated experience of mental illness. Maybe they had a lesser degree before this pandemic. And now that’s being exacerbated or their song who have situational, mental illness and most likely depression or anxiety, and it’s coming up for the first time. So I think those are the baseline causes. And if you had to, if you had to distill it down to one word, that the cause of mental illness is trauma.
Victoria Volk 23:08
I would agree. It’s so uncanny how similar our stories are. Because my dad died when I was eight, have cancer.
David Woods Bartley 23:19
I’m so sorry.
Victoria Volk 23:20
And thank you, and thank you for sharing your story, too. And I was also molested as a child. So, it is a trauma, right? I absolutely 100% agree with you.
David Woods Bartley 23:36
And you know, the other part about that is what I try to tell people now, and I would imagine you do the same, just having this initial wonderful experience with you with grief. Trauma doesn’t have to be what you and I endured, that trauma, trauma can be something that for one person, it’s not traumatic, but for another person it is. And so I think we cannot if we do an incredible disservice and exacerbate somebody’s trauma, by trying to put it into a box that we’ve experienced, or a box that is defined that way. And the same thing with grief, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. If somebody who’s been married to somebody else for 50 years, and this soul dies and people will I think with all good intensity Well, you had them for 50 years and they’re in a better place you want to say, I don’t want to hear that. And then but and then when people give that thought, like in the same thing with the person who can’t get out of bed from depression as well, you should get out of bed but you have it better than the people who are starving in Africa and then we shame those people. We’ve eliminated the possibility they’re going to talk about it. So then their thoughts become contaminated because they have no air. We have exacerbated them circumstance and we may be why are we then surprised that far too many souls are walking down the path towards ending that life because the suffering gets To the point, they lose, I defined depression as the absence of possibility, reason and hope. There’s no possibility things are going to get better. We have lost the reason to live. And hope is nowhere on the horizon. People don’t die in my opinion, Victoria have mental illness. They don’t desire desire, they don’t die from the medical condition, they die from hopelessness. without help, forget it, you can live without love. You may not have the capacity to develop great faith. But if you don’t have hope, you’re done. You are done. And that’s why I think both in any of the paradigm where people are suffering that the path out not easy, but the way out is through the mechanisms, then there are many of creating connection because connection creates hope, with hope. All things are possible. Everything. Everything is doable with hope.
Victoria Volk 25:56
You can’t see me right now, but I’ve been nodding my head like this whole time. Yeah, you know, I just I mean, I’ve been taking notes here, it’s just so much good things. You know, and that’s the whole premise of two of my podcast is to show people and give people hope. And through story, and through other people’s stories that because I love an underdog and I love an underdog who has made it through some really difficult times, turn their life around, and how did you do it? Show me how you what you did? and show me the light. We have to go first and that’s how it like you said that’s the I mean, that’s how you build connection to is in community and grieving as a community grieving, holding space for people. Giving compassion showing compassion, love everything you said about compassion, by the way,
David Woods Bartley 26:54
And that’s Christie Triplett, I mean, he has a great TED talk and this is that quote of like, Oh my god, compassion is curiosity without assumption it’s like what I call my phrase on it is blank slate listening. And then here’s another thing about listening real quick before I forget the greatest quote of all time about listening is from the great Dr. Rachel Naomi remen who wrote kitchen table wisdom. Please read it on my unbelievable book collection of essays so the great doctor says our listening creates a sanctuary for the homeless parts and other people.
Victoria Volk 27:29
Oh, that’s so good.
David Woods Bartley 27:31
So, a soul is grieving I think that’s why peer support in any malady because peer support gives hope hope defined as hearing other people’s experiences like oh, okay I you know, we you know, dear sister that we can become so consumed the monster is so great at convincing of us with the whole slate of lies that we feel we are the only one who is this abnormal this tarnish this horrific and then you sit amongst a group of other souls who are going through grief and loss and mental illness and anything else. Just hearing other people’s experiences gives us hope and then you get late You know, Charles Schultz, the creator of peanuts said that happiness is a warm puppy. Okay, if that’s true hope as a whole group of eight-week-old Labrador Retrievers hope this wants to be with you hope has no demands at all. Just wants to hang out with once a sit on your lap and go to sleep. Just like you know, like when Gizmo you told me that have an easiest mate to sit in your lap. Okay, so havanese probably the root word for having ease is hope.
Victoria Volk 28:44
You know, it’s funny you bring that up, because actually, the reason why we got a dog when, you know, I mentioned that we had before that we had tried the, you know, when my kids were younger, we tried the whole rescue dog thing, but that didn’t work out too. Well. What prompted me to get a dog again, when my kids were a little bit older, was the fact that my youngest was going to kindergarten. And I That same year, I was closing a business and I had a lot of change and that’s when a lot of grief started coming up for me. I had been a work at home kind of stay-at-home mom and I had been so wrapped up in that identity of being a mom and having a business having built a business and and choosing to say goodbye to that. Although it was very difficult. I knew that it was the right thing to do. But I had a lot of grief coming up at that time. And I thought what’s the what’s the cure? I need hope I need a dog. And yeah, I I pretty much came to my husband crying like I need a dog. I needed something and in grief recovery. I know now that my dog was my sturb we call them stuff short term energy relieving behaviors. Yeah, if if we don’t have hope, and we don’t have feel like there’s something good to look forward to, we look for things to make us feel better for a short period of time. And so, like you said, I, what you are leading to is like, even if you don’t think that’s how addiction happens, right? When we solely when we don’t have someone to talk to when we don’t, when we can’t feel like we can express what is lying dormant within us those that emotional grief energy, we either implode or we explode. And it either comes out as manifests as disease and, and health problems which I was experiencing at that same time. Or, and I was drinking, I actually ended up in the last year I just I next month will be a year that I quit drinking completely. Congrats. Thank you. But I say that though, just because it comes ties back to what you’ve been saying. And that we look for things to make us feel better for a short period of time when we aren’t willing to when we don’t, either we’re not ready. Or we’re unwilling to face the difficult stuff. And so what do you have to say to that, when it comes to clinical depression?
David Woods Bartley 31:18
I mean, I think so, what I talked about is that what I was what I’ve experienced, but then by these great coaches and mentors and therapists, and psychiatrists, and peer support, and all these other that the monster is not satisfied with just owning our mind. The monster wants to control our physiology, our psychology and our spirituality. In other words, the monster wants to devour the whole of who we are body, mind, spirit. And so my by my own belief, and I live on the more severe spectrum because I, I still have horrific days, I still have thoughts of killing myself from time to time, but I have this amazing set of tools and a mechanism. So I have put my self care on pedestal, there’s nothing more important, and it’s whole person care. It’s not just one thing, I don’t think that there’s a again, everybody’s different. But for me, there’s no single thing I can do to be well, I have to do all of it, I have to attend to the whole of who I am. And so for me, it’s about sleep. hygiene fact, I just I realized I had thanks to my beloved summer who’s my sweetheart, she said, I think you have sleep apnea. And so I have one of those c pap machines, and all of a sudden my God, I’m sleeping better. So it’s sleep, it’s dying to try to eat as clean as I can. Occasionally Colonel Sanders says, Come visit me because I miss you. And I must heed the call. And then I’m really good about exercise time outside, I have a bad ass psychiatrist, my he’s become like a father to this man is incredible, an incredible therapist, and they’re distinct. Although I do therapy also with my psychiatrist, which is a little unusual. I take two minutes. But the important thing about medication, I think there’s two hurdles that we need to get we ultimately get people over the first is okay, meds can help you. But the other thing to realize that in the best case, the best case scenario, what your medication is going to do is to quiet your symptoms met, you’re not going to cure you. It’s the difference between an antibiotic and an Advil, you break your leg, assume there’s no infection, you control the pain and the symptoms, you quiet them so you can go do physical therapy and everything else. The same thing is true with anti psychotic or an antidepressant or anti anxiety that they quiet the symptoms to allow the true curative healing effects and diet and sleep and exercise and therapy and counseling and psychiatry. And then, for me my own spiritual practice and then a sense of defined purpose, the sanctuary no longer exists. But I give curious entation center around the world in which I take this aspect of mental illness and I wrap it in animal stories. And they’re not stories just because I want to tell people feel good story, their feel good stories, but they all have a very specific teaching point. And my experience has been Victoria that for people like us who are dealing with something difficult. An animal story gives us a safe distance to relate to the topic at hand without it being right in our face. And for the people who want to understand somebody on scene like me, they can look at the story. I’m like, that makes sense. Just a beautiful way you explain addiction that we think it’s like why would you do that, but to realize in my belief that the people, people who have mental health disorders are actually far more tied into how they feel. They can relate more to how they feel than the normal person and so in the acute experience of those in the absence of compulsive behavior, without condoning it, you have to have some way to bleed out that intensity. Again, I’m not advocating for addiction, but there’s a reason behind curiosity City is the greatest and the most direct path to understanding when we understand one another, doesn’t mean we have to agree. But at least like Okay, wow, now, I get it. It makes sense. And then, if you want I know you probably you made me promise I tell the Joshua story. This is actually a perfect spot for the Joshua store. So we get a call one day at the sanctuary. And here’s the story. So old man, very old man, probably in his 80s comes into the animal shelter not far from our sanctuary with a very old dog. He was a basset hound cross. Carmel Crowther, Carmel colored swayback. Like an old pony had no teeth on the right hand side. So his tongue hung out. Okay, it’s an old dog, kind of a hot mess. So the man comes in to talk to the staff and said, Hey, I was walking and I found this dog as a stray. And I thought the right thing to do the right thing to do would be to bring him in and put him maybe he can find a home? I don’t know. So the staff was like, wow, that’s not like the behavior you would assume of a senior person. Thank you so much. Just to help us out. If you could please just give us some information about you and where you found the dog. We’ll take him in the back. Who knows? Maybe he’s microchip. So the man agrees to do that. Staff goes in the back comes back and says, Oh my god, we’re in luck. He’s microchipped. And then the staff member compare the information that was recorded on the microchip to the information that the man had filled out. And it matched. Now, in that moment, I would have opened up a can of whoop ass on that man, the likes of which he had never experienced I say, What if someone just dumped you out? At the end of your life like you have outgrown your usefulness, but this staff member Victoria, like the most amazing demonstration of compassion I’d ever heard about. She shifted the question from, what’s wrong with you to what happened to you, sir? What’s going on? What’s happening? How can I help you and in that moment, beautiful man just burst into tears, like, could not control he saw, like his whole body. And he finally was able to get himself back together. And he said, this is Joshua. I’ve had Joshua, since he was eight weeks old, there is nothing more important. This is my best friend. I’m dying. And I’m going into a medical facility and I can’t take my dog. And I thought if I said he was a stray, instead of the fact that I had to surrender, and it would give him more time to find. Mr. Rogers famously said that, quite frankly, there’s no one you can’t learn to love. Once you know their story, I would have done the same thing. And here’s the beautiful thing about understanding this is like that, you know, this is the bonus in the fertile ground, the level ground with an understanding that has the soil of compaction solutions and ideas. They just like Poom, it’s instant manifestation and that staff member who had asked that brilliant question, she said, there’s a sanctuary, down the hill, maybe they have room and they call this DNI went, I will never forget this wonderful man handing me the most important thing in his life, and asking me to take care of his beloved Paul. And all because somebody asked a question, Joshua was able to come to the sanctuary, and be treated with dignity and respect and was able in time to make his transition and this beautiful soul went on to in this life. And I think that that’s why curiosity is the most direct path to understanding, I think, curiosity is the most direct path to overcoming our fears about addiction, and mental illness and grief. Because in my opinion, the opposite of fear isn’t called the opposite of fears, understanding, the more we understand, the less we fear. So when we see these daunting behaviors, these societal conditions that are now just being exacerbated to an exponential level because of COVID, and isolation and distancing and everything else, I think it’s important for us to leverage curiosity to come to a place like we can understand wonder, if I think about the questions that the first responder asked me on the bridge, and the first question after he established logistics was David, what does it feel like to be depressed? Like, in that moment, like everything went calm, counterintuitive question. That would be like, what is your grief feel like? We would think that that would put us into a more acute, but it’s actually that’s what keeps you on the safe side of the rail of the barrier. And so, you know, when we I think in this time, in particular, if, if we ask people and we leverage questions of what and how, not why, and when You know, when someone asks you a why it almost automatically makes us defensive and when adds in the stress of time, but wondering how are very benign, they’re actually beautifully neutral. And we ask, you know, what’s it like? And if nothing else, we see somebody who’s suffering and struggling, and maybe they’re not able to vocalize and articulate the difficulty. And maybe the question is, then, what would help you feel like you were Understood? Because I think when we feel like people understand us, man is that that’s hopeful. Like, okay, I don’t, I don’t feel like some alien on some planet.
Victoria Volk 40:39
You can’t see my notes. But I actually wrote, doctor, and then what happened to you? Because that is one thing that doctors will never ask like, if you go to your general practitioner, I’ve done a few of these interviews now, regarding like, with mental illness, or just in conversation, obviously about grief, and you go to the doctor, general practitioner, or whatever, they never asked what happened to you, I had about of postpartum and what I know now, it was postpartum at the time, I had some really dark thoughts, and go to my general go to my practitioner, nurse practitioner, share with her what I was feeling, well put you on an antidepressant. And it wasn’t because of, well, I had a baby. And then I had another baby. And then I had another baby. It was this dormant grief that had been sitting there and was rising up with all the hormones and all the changes and just everything. And I didn’t know what to do with those feelings, or things that you’re saying. It’s just, yep, touching all everything. Like every every note that I have. And I’m asked, I’m wondering to how then do you identify someone who may be clinically depressed? Or who is exhibiting the jolly go lucky person? on the exterior? How do you figure out that out? Like how, what, what, even because even some of the people closest to like, the people closest to you had no clue, right? Is that correct?
David Woods Bartley 42:18
Oh, you my beloved. And you know, I say for my former bride is amazing soul, and we’re still really good friends. I was able to hide behind the velocity of our life. Okay, you can imagine, let me just tell you 25 horses produce a lot of manure, it’s like, and we literally picked up every piece every day, because we wanted this environment to be pristine. And just so I can hide behind that. And I think there are a lot of good actors out there. There are a lot of people like me that they call, they found a one of two categories. They’re either smiling depressives, or high functioning, depressing. So you just have no clue, like, keep showing up and getting stuff done. And so, if you look at the symptoms, there, basically it’s changes in cognition, you can have people who all of a sudden are giving things away. They may become very irritable, it’s just in so what I say to people, when I do a PowerPoint, there’s always an animal picture on it, is to one first, just be okay. Don’t make yourself wrong, don’t be engulfed in shame. If If you don’t see these, because for people like me, these can be incredibly subtle. Like, really the only way I think beyond something that’s just really obvious, is it’s to follow that intuition that we all have, say. Some seems off, and then you think, oh, whatever, you know, right now the Oh, it’s just the stress of COVID, which could be true. But I think we just we need to pay attention. You know, that I love the quote that says, attention is the purest form of generosity. Like, let’s just be a little bit more mindful of one another. And look for these because these signs are really subtle. And then when when we do like, okay, we have the wherewithal to step forward and leverage curiosity. We need to ask a direct, heartfelt question. And it could be something like, I may be totally wrong, but I’m just feeling like, I feel like you’re suffering I feel like it just I just don’t feel like I just feel like something’s wrong. Would you please tell me how are you feeling? And I think if we can pose the question that is there is a difference between Are you feeling okay? That’s a yes or no. versus how are you feeling? It’s not Can I do something for you? It’s what can I do? Do you feel like I understand you are what can I do to help you feel understood? If people want to talk to you, they may be reticent. They may feel embarrassment and shame because there’s still a stigma around this. I think it’s less than little by little thanks to great people like you. But I think ultimately, people want to talk about it. And so we need to ask hard question. There’s a suicide prevention technique that was created by an amazing psychologist Dr. Paul quintet, and it’s called QPR, which is question persuade, and refer. It’s kind of like CPR for mental health. Well, Dr. cornet has this quote, in which he said, it’s the unasked questions that lead to tragedy. So why I thought this, but it is counterintuitive, like why would that officer asked me David, what does it feel like to be depressed? You would think, okay, that’s really going to toss this person over. But again, that’s what kept me safe. You know, what’s it like on your worst day? You know, when when you hear voices, what are the voices say? Would you please help me understand, I want to understand so I can, I can serve you, I can help you. And then quiet. In the end, you have that quote from Dr. Lemon said, in this gift of listening, it literally creates a sanctuary for people like I had a home to live on that day, but on that dark spot, and tall, tall bridge, I was homeless, you know, and the fact that this man, listen to me, just listen. Just listen, that was it. He asked the question, then he listened, like, wow, it’s not really complicated. And I think what happens is, I there are available resources to process grief and mental illness and everything and they’re not perfect, but they exist. But if people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut. That’s why I gave a talk recently, and I wanted to be a little I wanted to grab people’s attention in the talk was mental illness, a complex problem with a simple solution. solution is connection. That’s it. Like if we become more connected in all these different ways, become great at remembering people’s names. Leverage curiosity, to create extension, become the master of the handwritten note. People need to hear how you feel about me. If you’ve just become great with those things. You experience the mutuality of connection it’s mutually beneficial and you will change people in ways that you cannot imagine and then if I can I’m gonna tell you real quick another real quick story all that said you can I totally get how frustrating it can be if we do all these things. We’re really looking forward to we’re looking to step up and help people and there’s no visible we don’t feel like what we do makes a difference. It’s like and you want to give up like I’m doing everything I can I’m doing all these steps and so we had this bird at the sanctuary named kiya she was pretty good sized parrot. She had been abused by man so she comes and we had this big great room and then kiya there was this armoire and kiya had this beautiful platform she had this great new look at all the animals and everything these are brilliant when it created all the methods in which we took care of these animals I was really good at picking up manure I like I can do it so I was the feeder primarily and so the first day I go up and I approach KSK Victoria as soon as I did she like shakes violently turns around and goes to the rear of k i think you know what, but then I’ve been the rescue for a while we run this have good energy I’m it’s going to be okay. Go out the next day, same thing and so I changed the paper and I open the cage and I put in the water and nuts enter treats and she’s just you know what it’s gonna be okay. So this goes on day after day after day after week after month, same thing, no change. Like I’m doing all these things to make a difference and nothing’s changing. And at one point I said, Honey, I can’t do this. This is I think I’m making a worse you know, like you do and she said how they just I know she she needs to know that men are okay, I know it’s gonna change. So keep going on. It’s not gonna change, like nothing happens. And then one day I go up and I’m like robotic factorial. Approach the cage and she’s doing her thing and I changed the paper open it up and I put the water in I put the nuts in as I put the treats in. kiya turns around and comes to the front of the cage climbs up and pops her head out and puts her head down. And when a parent does that, one they’re completely vulnerable because they can’t strike you with their town or bite you and what they want you to do is to scratch their head. And remember that oh my god. And so the question is Was trust created in that moment? Or was it those small acts consistently done, encouraged by this beautiful woman. And it was, of course, the ladder. And then every time I came to the cage, that head was down. And so, you know, the bad news is in in, I think a lot of instances, we don’t get to see the impact of our kind acts. But as somebody who’s on the receiving end, including a bark in the background, they’re on the receiving end of an innumerable number of those, each and every one of those, even if I don’t respond, they all made a life saving difference. And so I would just say, keep doing, keep making those deposits of kindness and compassion and love and understanding into the bank of a soul who’s depleted. And it will, in fact, It can turn a life around.
Victoria Volk 50:56
That’s a beautiful illustration,
David Woods Bartley 50:59
Out of black and tan coonhound. It’s being very disrespectful on our podcast right now.
Victoria Volk 51:11
Just saying hello, just saying hello. Okay, so I suppose the principle still applies. And those rules, not rules. But that idea still applies when you have kids that are not necessarily very vocal and open and it’s, they’re kind of like, tough nuts to crack, you know?
David Woods Bartley 51:32
Exactly. So, here’s an interesting it’s an incredible segue. I don’t know if I shared this, so I’ve never had children at DNI neither of us waited. And then with summer who’s my beloved now, she has three babies, Ethan is 15 Bella is 12 and Gracie is nine. And so like, Okay, this is a whole learning experience for me. And it is because I you know, I’m trying I’m trying to learn leverage on the experience under the mentorship with my former bride You know, they’re sentient beings that’s the commonality an animal on a child different but they’re sentient beings. And so for me to to recognize the subtle differences and then leverage curiosity in a way that that works for them maybe not be so direct on a question related to depression or anxiety but something different and it’s great I’m still learning it it’s it’s still a skill and sometimes I mess it up Horace, why did I say that? And the times when at a point of relating maybe something totally different for Grayson is playing like she’s super active. And she’ll say, David, okay, and we make up games and everything else. I remember these games Victoria them when I was nine years old, growing up. So we just make up all these games. And we’re making nothing else. That’s a point of connection for Shana. And maybe there’s she may, then we’ve been in each other’s lives now for almost two and a half years. And there’s been these moments where she is sharing when she’s felt anxious when she’s been depression. And I know, she knows, I’ve never the two girls. Ethan has has seen me speak a couple times to girls have not, but they have an idea. And I Grace has gone so far as to say that in regards to when she’s feeling depressed at times that she says, I know David understands. So okay, you know, and she’s at a quick handwritten note story. So someone I don’t live together, yet, we’re actually gonna move in together in January to be great for all the parents out there, please help me because I don’t know what I’m doing. I have nowhere to run, I can escape now. And so I’m sorry. I’m afraid. So there was this day, and I was in a bad space when I was in depression was within my budget. So summer had said, Honey, could you go by the store and pick up a few things for me, and I said, Sure. And then I didn’t have time to take it to her house, which is not far away. And I said, they’ll just have to leave it in the car, and you can come back. So I’m upstairs, take Sharon and come out to my car. And there is not one but two notes. On my front seat. One is from summer, just expressing her love and support. And the second one is from grace. And I don’t have a right here and we’re on a radio anyway. So it’s on a piece of line notebook paper. And it’s written in purple pen. And it says Hi, David, this is grace. Thank you so much for being the best stepdad in the world. I love you so very much. And thank you for taking such good care of mommy. Now I took pictures of both of those Victoria and I send them to summer and I said thanks. And she said thank you so much, because grace wouldn’t let me know what she wrote. So Gracie had no idea that I was having a bad day and yet, my child intuitively knew that in that moment When I needed this reminder that I was okay, and that I was loved and that what I was doing in service to her mom and loving her mother, she noticed that she picked up that whole thing. And I have that note laminated. You can offer me a million dollars for that, I’d say no, I could use a million. But no, it’s not another note I got from a young woman who’s like a daughter. At the end of the know, she said, depression can’t have you, because your hours. So it’s, I think we might be surprised at how impactful small things are. You know, and I think what I tell people is, you know, we, each of us, because if we don’t have initials past our names, if we don’t have a PhD, we may think we’re incapable and unqualified to make difference. But I think actually, it’s just the opposite, that we are all universally capable and qualified, because we not only can we create connection, we know what it feels like, we know what it’s like when someone remembers our name. And we had no expectation that they would just remember who I am. When someone creates a safe place for us to tell our story. When we go to the mailbox, and there is, let’s say, unsolicited mail, and then all of a sudden, there’s that uniquely sized envelope. And there’s that handwriting like, okay, it’s gonna be one of three things, it’s gonna be an invitation, it’s gonna be cash, or it’s going to be somebody taking the time to let us know, they love us. Because if they think we’re a butthead, they’re going to send us a text. So it’s just these things. I mean, I’m so passionate to say, oh, we’re in such a difficult position, it is incredibly daunting and complex problem. Grief is can be overwhelming. But if we come together in that pure tribal sense, and offer each other’s support, not advice, journey with one another, not one in front, and one behind just side by side, man, let’s just walk this thing together. I think I know that’s the way we can win. I really, really do.
Victoria Volk 57:04
And grief recovery, we call it being a heart with ears.
David Woods Bartley 57:08
Oh, I love that. Right?
Victoria Volk 57:12
Yeah, we need more of those.
David Woods Bartley 57:14
We do. And they’re out there. I just think, you know, it’s just, it’s a matter and who knows, maybe the silver lining and all the suffering and difficulty of COVID is a reset to a certain degree. I mean, it’s not a reset I wanted. And in terms of the work that you and I do, maybe what this has done is is focused what really what the what really the most daunting problems that our society has are all in relation to mental health. That’s it, everything, you know, there is no mental health. Without mental health, there is no foundation. It’s like you’re, you’re gonna drown and imagine when we feel Well, interestingly, when I feel good, I treat other people really well. I mean, they do it’s just, you know, we stand in that beautiful place of understanding and do all these things. It’s, you know, and courageous souls like you to bring attention to a really difficult subject. You know, like, that’s why I’m here to talk about grief. Oh, sorry. I had I didn’t realize I had another appointment.
Victoria Volk 58:25
Someone asked me not long ago, she said, do you love grief?
David Woods Bartley 58:31
Wow.
Victoria Volk 58:32
And I’m like, it caught me off guard actually. And I was like, yeah, grief is kind of my jam. But not in a way like, oh, yeah, you know, it’s it’s like, like you say, like you’ve used you wrote on your, on your forum here. Grief has become my friend. And it’s been my lifelong friend, like yours. So, it’s just so add just the similarities. I feel like you’re a kindred spirit.
David Woods Bartley 59:01
Oh, no, I’m a bit of a, like an obsessive freak about serendipity. No, you know, I don’t believe in randomness or I just think, you know, you and I, the way we think there’s no accident, this does and the fact that we are together now, all of it, to me is divine. In the most universal sense. I’m not trying to point to a certain belief system, but I just think it’s not capricious, it’s just it’s like, this is what it’s supposed to be. So now I have a kindred spirit, you know, a sister that understands and focuses on another aspect that I still deal with, you know, I, I don’t know I don’t know if I shared with you that. So I was released from the psych hospital on September 15 2011. By the end of that year, I lost every conference and so long story which I’m talking about now, but just everything went away. I remember very clearly handing the keys to my vehicle on the Repo Man drove away. We lost our support because people thought if the co founder was going to kill himself, what must be happening to the animals, which the animals were being cared for, and loved in ways that most people wanted to be. But people freaked out, they were afraid. So the animals were taken away. With Auster house to foreclosure it was sold at auction and the marriage crumbled under the weight. And so I mean, it was literally like a fire had come and spontaneously erupted and wiped my life out. And with a borrowed car, and one of my beloved Boston terriers, harmony, came to live where I live now with my two brothers and sister in law and I look back now like you say, I went from one sanctuary to another because it has been in this sanctuary that I’ve been able to heal but and it’s interesting. Another part of that is to underscore how connection saved my life on multiple occasions. When I was in the hospital, I met a guy named Don was another middle-aged man who was going to kill himself. And when Don got out of the hospital, he found this men’s depression Support Group, a group of middle aged men who met every Tuesday for two hours and for six years, every Tuesday at see my therapist from four to five, take a break and then go be in group for two hours. From that amazing place. I met my therapist, I met my psychiatrist, I got on the right medication, I was given the first chance to speak eight years ago, all because of a guy that I met in a psych hospital. And then you fast forward to the end of that year had I not had the group and everything else. I didn’t know the nightmare that was coming, the trauma and the grief that would overwhelm me had I not met Don made that connection, there is no way in the world that I would have been alive by the end of the year. That wasn’t an accident, that of all the people that could have come to the mental health, mental health, that psych ward, that man and I met on that day and everything that happened out of you and I coming together and there’s no accident. I think that life is yearning is screaming for us to connect in these ways to open up our eyes so we can work together to heal what’s going on and healing. Isn’t it possible, I’m not saying it’s easy, a lot of work. You know, I spent as much time in self care that the average person spends in a part time job, you know, between working out therapy, where it just it’s a lot of work it is but I’ve had glimpses and experiences of mental health I’ve never thought possible. That it was interesting. So until like five years ago, August 31 of the year was every year was the worst day of the year on the January baby I hate summer. It just I don’t like the heat not in California, it’s a dry heat facility. So five years ago, I go to the mailbox. And there is one of those uniquely sized envelopes. And open it up on the outside of the card. It says advice from a glacier, go slow, carve your own path but whatever like I want to like cost the same but out of curiosity open up in these big like Crayola crayon orange print. It says happy today. And it’s from my incredible friend Greg. And it was this support and this love and this encouragement and as a result of that card Victoria, August 31 of every year went from the worst day to my New Year’s that and every year including just recently on August 31. I go back to the bridge and apart my vehicle in the same spot and a walk to the midpoint in a celebration in a New Year’s Day. And this last year was the most extraordinary because my beloved whose name is mentioned just happens to be summer which I think is hilarious. She said honey, I want to go with you. And here we are. I’m walking with the woman then I’ll spend the rest of my life with the juxtaposition between the epitome of isolation to the apex of connection as we walk to that same point all thanks to a card that showed up on that day at that time. Just like that’s it. That’s we hold it in our hand we can do this. It’s and then when we do we open up access to all of these resources to the whole world with souls who stand on the front line the people who embrace becoming a mental health service worker to become a psychiatrist and a psychologist who who deal with the rigors in the upset of what they call courtesy stigma that that they share some of the stigma that we do by association and yet they’re like that’s okay man. I don’t care about that. You’re This is my peeps and I’m gonna help these people like all of those relationships open up when we have that moment of connection and we can create it everywhere, anyplace, anytime, with anyone. No matter what.
Victoria Volk 1:04:55
Wasn’t that an amazing part one episode with David seriously combat for part two, it’s just as good. We get into how you can’t drag someone from hell illness to wellness, how difficult that is for people standing on the sidelines watching someone who you know they love and care about who is depressed and may have suicidal ideation and how to help them. He gives more practical tips and advice around that. He talks about his own thoughts around the myths, I call them the myths of suicide prevention. We get into forgiveness, self loathing, loathing to self love, which is very apparent with people who are clinically depressed. Just he shares a lot more personal story and great analogies of life that we see in nature with animals, and he just makes everything just so relatable. So come back next week for that episode. And till then, take care. Much love my friend.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections from Episodes 18 &19: Children Grieving & Grieving Children
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
The child-griever club is not a very big club, and yet, big enough. 5% of children in the United States have lost one or both parents by age 15.
This episode is a reflection of a shared experience with griever, Lindsay, from episode 18. She lost a parent, her mother, at 13 months old. If you haven’t listened to her episode, and episode 19 with Reena, check those out then come back to this one.
Aside from talking about child grief, and what you can do to support a grieving child you know (and more), I also share some nuggets of wisdom Reena shared from her episode, as well as my reflections around one of the most minimized losses – miscarriage.
Through loss, we learn so much about ourselves. We also have an opportunity to share, from experience, where we’ve struggled and where we’ve triumphed through grief.
Grief unites us all, regardless of the loss you’ve endured. And many of us, like Lindsay and myself, are faced later in life with a choice. We can either resist that which, literally, shaped who we’d become (due to childhood grief), or lean into it and create something good from it.
If you know a child griever in your life, here are six tips for offering support to a grieving child mentioned in this episode:
- Listen with your heart, not your head. Allow the child to express all emotions without judgment, criticism, or analysis.
- Recognize that grief is emotional, not intellectual. Avoid asking “What’s wrong?” Similarly to adults, children often respond with “Nothing.”
- You are the adult – go first. Tell the truth about your own grief. Additionally, don’t try to compare your loss to theirs.
- Remember that each child is unique and each has a unique relationship to the loss event.
- Be patient. Don’t force them to talk.
- Never say “Don’t feel sad, or “Don’t feel scared.” Sadness and fear are normal feelings following loss of any kind.
Resources & References:
______
Need help?
- Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
-
- Tell Your Friends & Share Online!
- Read & Review my published book about my grief journey.
Today is Episode 20. As I said, takeaways and reflections from episodes 18 was with Lindsay joy Taylor and 19 was with Rena Friedman. But I cannot even get my numbers straight today. So yes, this is Episode 20. And I’m titling it, children grieving and grieving children. So the episode with Lindsay, I just wanted to dig in a little bit more, she had the loss of her mother, when she was 13 months old, I believe her mother was murdered. And we dug a little bit into childhood grief in her experience, because that’s the whole idea behind this podcast is to give the griever the platform to share their story, I just wanted to dig a little deeper into childhood grief. And that’s an experience that Lindsay and I both share. If you’ve never listened before my father passed away when I was eight have cancer, and he had been sick for about two years.
So I watched his decline, which was really difficult. So Lindsay, and I share that commonality, although our grieving experiences and our losses are vastly different. It is the shared child loss that we both can connect to. And I want to speak a little bit on that on how losses are inevitable, and the dangers of comparison of losses.
How Losses are Inevitable
So speaking just a little bit about losses in general, which are inevitable and cannot be avoided. And as much as we love our children, we cannot wrap a shield around them and protect them from sad, painful or negative feelings. So the next best thing for is for us to learn how to help them when events and circumstances occur, that create the normal and natural emotions of grief, grief or loss. And establishing a foundation for dealing effectively with loss can be one of the greatest gifts you can give a child and for me growing up and for my loss experience there was no therapy, there was no communication about what had occurred about the death of my dad, it was like, Yes, he died. He’s being buried. And I grew up having this idea or thought that when you die, you just go on the ground and, and that’s it. I really didn’t have an eye you know, and I created these visions in my mind of and through the years actually. I wonder what he looks like now like these are the thoughts that went through my mind. And it’s really difficult because you don’t know how to process those feelings. You weren’t given the tools and the space to actually share.
Now Lindsay’s experience was a little bit different in the fact that it was her mom for me it was my dad and her dad had actually remarried soon after, as my mom into that relationship wasn’t the greatest for her. And so there wasn’t that safe space, as she shared, and the whole family’s still, you know that there’s the family dynamic too, right? Because, like for me, too, there was other people in the household. We all have our different grieving experiences and how we process and the age difference as well. My brother was five years older. Lindsay was the youngest as well, yes, she was the youngest as well. So, and her sister, I think, was five years older than her as well. Maybe even a little bit older than that. Please go listen to that episode, Episode 18 with Lindsay, that it’s an excellent episode, as they all are, because these are people’s grieving stories. We all have a story, right?
So anyway, back to the inevitability of loss, and the importance of a child to be supported through that to have the option and ability to communicate. And for Lindsay, that happened a little bit later for her. She did speak about play therapy, which I absolutely loved that that was something that was offered to her, someone in her, I think it was in her school teacher or some faculty really saw something. And she really couldn’t pinpoint either what it was that led her to be in that play therapy. But it made an impression on her to the point that she still remembers that today. And so it really is important that we allow our children the ability to communicate what they’re feeling, even if it makes you uncomfortable right? I remember having a conversation not a couple years ago, actually, no, it was after I have been certified in grief recovery, I ran into someone who I’ve known for quite a few years. And they had a lot of loss in their life. And he was speaking about his daughter and how, you know, they had added another like her grandpa had passed away and the daughter of the grandpa so her mom, anytime that daughter would bring up the Grandpa, the mom would get upset, she didn’t want to talk about it, she was so hurt in her own heart space. Right, she was still she was grieving herself. And she any mention of her father upset her. And so if the child wasn’t given the space to communicate about her loss, and what she learned in that was that we don’t talk about our losses. And as much as as painful as they are, we stuff them down. That’s what we’re taught. That’s what many of us are taught.
We Should Never Compare Losses
And, unfortunately, and so it’s our discomfort around loss in our lives. This is why that generational learning gets passed down. Because we are so uncomfortable with what we’re feeling. We don’t know how to process what we’re feeling as the adults, the children therefore learn by example, right? And so this is why I’m so passionate about grief recovery. It’s why I’m very passionate about the helping children with Loss Program. I’ll get more into that later. But these are skills and lessons that we carry with us for the rest of our lives. And what lesson do we want to pass on to our children? Along with those lessons, it’s important to that we recognize that all loss is individual and unique because every relationship is individual and unique all loss is experienced at 100% even though the level of intensity is not the same for every loss and each loss can have different emotional intensity for each person.
This is why it is essential to understand that we can never, we never compare losses, neither our own nor those of our children, and never between siblings or friends they’re each individual and unique in will have their own responses to loss. And it can be tough because we need to remember that never to compare losses or each other’s responses to those losses because comparison creates a false hierarchy of loss. For example, when the child whose parents have divorced is compared with the child who had one or both parents die, he is often made to feel that he shouldn’t feel bad or sad because his parents are still alive. Likewise, we shouldn’t compare our children’s responses to lock to a loss. For example, we would not say something like, I don’t know why you’re so upset about this move, your sister is looking forward to it and excited to get there. Now that’s the perfect example of comparing losses. The fact is that the that the child’s heart and life have been massively disrupted by that divorce or the move in their feelings about that loss or as real and valid as any other child’s feelings about any loss. So again, just as we should not compare as adults to each other as losses. We do not want to compare our children’s, to their siblings, to their friends, and to our own because every relationship is unique and individual. Children are like sponges, they watch and listen to us and they hear things we might not even say and they begin to establish those as ways they should handle grief. Think of it about what you’re teaching your children about how to grieve and if you’re listening to this, and you’re feeling I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m really screwing this up. I’m doing this wrong, my child has no idea. I have no idea how to support them.
Concrete Tips to Help you Navigate your Child Through their Loss
Allow your child to express all emotions without judgment, criticism or analysis.
Recognize that grief is emotional, not intellectual, avoid the trap of asking your child what is wrong? because he or she will automatically say nothing. Isn’t that what we adults do? right? We say I’m fine, you are the adult.
Go first tell the truth about your own grief. Don’t be afraid to say, I remember feeling sad, when but don’t try to compare your loss.
Remember that each of your children is unique. And each has a unique relationship to the loss event.
Be patient do not force them to talk.
Never say don’t feel sad, or don’t feel scared. Sadness and fear are normal feelings following loss of any kind.
The Traumatic Experience of a Child
But I also want to share to how you know there’s grief. And then there’s also trauma and trauma agreement experience can be traumatic. So losing my father, that was a traumatic experience. Death is very finite, it’s when someone dies. That’s it. It’s done, right? There’s no going back. And that can feel very traumatic for a child, even if they have watched their loved ones suffer. And they knew what’s coming. I’m not really sure if I knew what was coming. But I remember hearing the words dad died, and it hitting me at the moment. Children have no choice who their parents are. And this I’m going to read this little excerpt from there’s a book called The body keeps the score, brain, mind and body in the healing of trauma by Bessel Vander Kolk, it is not an easy read. It is a book about trauma and how trauma is held in the body. And it’s mostly about child sexual abuse, and having been abused, sexually abused as a child. This book has not been easy for me to read, I’m actually still working through it like I have to read a little bit at a time. But I want to read this little excerpt which can apply to you know, trauma in general too or just grief in general. Children have no choice who their parents are, nor they can, can they understand that parents may simply be too depressed, enraged, or spaced out to be there for them, or that their parents behavior may have little to do with them.
Children have no choice but to organize themselves to survive within the families they have. Unlike adults, they have no other authorities to turn to for help. Their parents are the authorities, they cannot rent an apartment or move in with someone else, their very survival hinges on their caregivers. And this is the weight we carry as parents because when my father passed away, my survival hinged on my mother emotional, physical, everything, you know, an eight years old, that’s a very formative, I mean, your brain still developing and much of what you’ve learned about grief is actually pretty well set in almost getting to age 12, actually, but much of what we learn 75% of what we learn about grief is actually instilled in us by that age. And so it’s imperative that those early years, we set the stage and foundation for how to process grief. Now, I mentioned earlier that my mom in previous podcast episodes, I’m not sure if I did in this one, but my mom didn’t really know how to process her own grief. So she wasn’t emotionally available to help me process mine. And that created a dissociation because not only to my mother, it was like to myself, like I, you know, I wasn’t connected with what was going on in my body, like how I was feeling. And all of those emotions were like, stagnant were stuck in there.
And I feel like for Lindsay too like we shared that common bond, it does stay in your body, the conversation actually led to that how trauma stays in the body and how it can show up many years later, we can have an experience at age 8,9,10. And it may not show up again in our lives until we’re 12,16,24 doesn’t matter. It’s individual for everyone. But that’s the fascinating thing for me about trauma and what I’ve been learning. But again, we don’t have a choice who our parents are, and and no one helps facilitate processing that trauma. It does stick with us in some way some fashion somehow and shows up in our other relationships as we get older. And there’s that other piece of the family dynamics that everyone has their own way, right? And some family members may be more vocal, others may be more private. Again, that has a lot to do with what we’re taught, like how to process grief.
Having Kids as a Healing Tool
For me it was I was very private about what was going on in my own inner world, Lindsay expressed how she’s more vocal. And perhaps it was part of that play therapy. And you know, earlier therapy that she experienced in her college years to understand how important it was to talk about what she was experiencing. It was interesting, too, that our conversation led into having kids as a healing tool. I didn’t expect that to come up. But I was very glad it did. Because I think it’s easy for some of us to when we’re have not processed our own grief to fill that void, especially if we did not receive love. If we did not have the emotional connection to our own parent, there’s this we desire love, right? We desire affection, and connection is that piece that is a human need. And so if we didn’t experience that growing up, we will try to find it, we will try to find ways to create that for ourselves, whether it’s a sterb short term energy relieving behaviors, alcohol, drugs, things that make us feel good for a time, we will resort to those things, or relationships, we can do that with relationships as well, relationships can be a sterb, always needing to have somebody or this idea that someone else completes you.
And so when we’re thinking about having children, there’s different philosophies around that as well. And for me, growing up, I didn’t want kids into my 20s and it’s probably shaped by my experiences in childhood. And I think too, it’s I didn’t know, or feel like I would be good enough, to be honest, you know, and that plays into on, you know, self worth issues and all of that. But then there’s the pendulum can swing the other way to where we seek that out, we seek having children to fill that need for us. So it can go both ways. And so it was an interesting conversation. And Lindsey shared how she is open to children, but that it’ll happen when it’s ready when it’s organically going to happen. But she understands she has a self-awareness, I think that’s the biggest piece here is the self- awareness to feel like you have laid a foundation to be the best parent that you can be. And I think that’s what it comes down to the self awareness around it. And I definitely didn’t have any of that in my early 20s. I maybe I did, I had the self awareness that Nope, I’m not going to be a good parent. Like I had told myself that also too, like I was too busy living the life and a life of I was too busy getting my throne my life off the tracks and put it that way i was really preoccupied with myself and the disaster of my life I was creating. So yeah, children were not even were the farthest thing from my mind. But you know, once I found somebody in my life who brought out the best in me, who helped me create a foundation who was an integral part in helping me find my faith again, that foundation was laid, and I felt more confident in who I was. And in the relationship I was in feel like I would approach parenthood as a team effort and that I had support right? And I think that’s huge too.
Helping Children with Loss Program
Circling back to what this whole episode with Lindsay was about, you know, grieving children. I just want to share a little bit about the helping children with loss program. It is a four week online group program. It is for parents, caregivers, school staff, clergy, daycare providers, headstart centers, homeless shelters, even like the staff of homeless shelters, military, family groups, veteran groups, etc. It is for anybody who is a leader of child organization who have children in their care, adoptive families, foster families, you name it, like if you are taking care of children in any capacity this program is for you. It is to help you have the tools and knowledge of helping children process their feelings around loss of any kind. And let me just add to that trauma for a child can be as simple as their teddy bear ended up in the dumpster, or you took it away or their baby blanket was taken away. Or you know, it seems so simple to us as an adult but to a child, it can feel traumatic, and that stays in our bodies. Like I said, that’s where communication is huge. And children understand far more than we give them credit for and I think they’re underestimated. Children are greatly underestimated in society.
So I just wanted to share a little bit about that program that it is online. It is four weeks in it, it arms you with the tools to feel confident of knowing what to say, what to do. When you are confronted with a child who is feeling loss, reach out to me, I’m gonna put the link in the show notes as well, for more information. It’s a great program. I’m passionate about it, just like with everything related to grief recovery, and reach out if you have any questions, please. And my question to you too, would be when you hear me talking about this stuff, and the potential of what you could learn in this program. My question is, does it feel expansive, because we don’t know what we don’t know. And knowledge comes from learning and experience. And so if you don’t know, there’s a way to learn, and it’s through this program. So just going to throw that out there.
Multiple Miscarriage Experience and Words of Wisdom
Switching gears to Episode 19 with Rena, which was titled multiple miscarriage experience and words of wisdom. I just want to share a couple stats each year 24,000 babies are stillborn, according to an August 2020 CDC report. And I mean, I was learning a lot I did a little bit of research as I’m sharing with you for this episode. And when the baby dies in the womb prior to 20 weeks that is considered miscarriage. Also about one in 100 women have repeat miscarriage, according to the March of Dimes website. And also pregnancy hormones can remain in a female’s body one to two months after miscarriage. And in that episode, Rena shared a little bit of her experience about the hormones and how it’s like you, you’re supposed to have this child in your arms. And, you know, you feel the heart, you hear the heartbeat and you feel them moving inside. And that’s traumatic, it’s traumatic to the body. It is traumatic to a female’s psyche, it can be I’m not saying it is for everybody, but it can be. And we talked to about the environment in which a woman who goes through a miscarriage is placed in and she was sharing how, you know, you go into this office, and you’re supposed to, you know, she actually had to go in to complete the miscarriage. And, you know, she’s sitting in this office, and these women are, you know, they’re big bellies, and very happy, very pregnant. And that’s heart wrenching for a woman who’s facing the loss of her baby, also too she shared her own personal experience of the nurse who said, well, you’re the abort, and caught herself, caught herself before she you know, insinuated that she was there for an abortion.
You know, that is very hurtful and very harmful to someone who is there actually, because of miscarriage. But there has to be the sensitivity around and first of all, like, really verifying the information. But I think too, it becomes, I can’t imagine working in that environment where day in and day out, you are seeing women who are experiencing miscarriage and who are having abortions and how, how easy that mistake can happen. And here’s the thing, maybe that’s where change needs to happen as well, and how we create an environment that’s safe, that’s holding, holding space for a woman, regardless of what she’s there for, regardless of what she’s experiencing, to honor the presence of her spirit of her loss of what she’s going through. And I don’t know, I just I feel like you know, it’s a clinical type setting. It’s like how can we make that environment. It’s like when you go in for a massage, right? You go there to relax, you go there to feel good to lift your own spirit to care for yourself, you know, the lights are down low, there’s probably aromatics like something is you know, being diffused to, you know, aroma therapy is being used, they’re setting the mood to help you relax and feel comfortable. And I just think there has to be something that can be done for women who are going through either experience to make them feel supported, held and comforted because a loss is a loss.
And grief is grief actually got really kind of fired up at that point in her episode because I really do think there needs to be the sensitivity training around this and but again to I think it’s almost it can be easy too to become desensitized when you’re in that environment day in and day out. Well, it’s just another day you become desensitized. As to what is really occurring when you’re in that day in and day out, and to what does that do to their psyche? What does that do to, to their hearts as well, right? Because we all are human, and there can be this shame as well, in that grief, and it’s an incredibly vulnerable time, you know, if you don’t feel safe with who is there to support you, that leaves a lasting impression on your heart and in your body as well. We shifted gears then to talking about her grandparents she had, she had both sets of grandparents living well into their 90s, I believe. And it wasn’t until I’m not sure of the year, but in recent years, her paternal grandfather had passed away. And we got to talking about her surviving grandmother, and how I believe she was turning, I have 95, in my mind, but that might be incorrect well into her 90s. Anyway, still taking care of herself, well, up until recently had been taking care of herself. And we talked about the end of life experience, and in what she has learned from her grandmother. And in recent years, she sent this quote, and I wrote it down because it was just really good. One thing she’s learned is why spend your time on the people who are going to judge you? Spend your time on the people who love you. I can’t recall if that is wisdom from her grandmother, but all the same. It’s good wisdom, and it’s a truth. And I think it applied 50 years ago, it still applies today. And it’ll apply, apply 50 years from now.
Rena’s Beautiful Story of Being in Jerusalem
We also talked about charity, and she shared this beautiful story of being in Jerusalem. And there was this woman who just asked her for money, every time she passed her, and she would give her money every time she passed her. And I loved what she shared that her dad had taught her early on, and he told her, if God puts them in my path, then I need to help them. And I love that. Now, of course, you want to do that with all safety in mind, right? Like my husband has told me you ever see someone on the side of the road? And you’re alone? don’t you stop. You know, nowadays, everyone has a cell phone, and there should be no reason why they can’t get help. But that is my nature to want to help people. And so he had made it very clear. If you are alone, you do not stop. But when it comes to charity, I just love that story she shared. But anyway, it went She went on to add, though, that I want there was one point though where she was it was the day she was leaving Jerusalem. And she sees this woman again. And she’s sitting down, she’s sitting next sat next to her. And she listened to this woman talk. And she said she had this really crusty sweater, and obviously this woman and living on the streets, but she listened to everything this woman shared and gave her a hug, I encourage you to listen to that episode, because it’s a beautiful story of charity, and how I think sometimes charity is looked at like, it has to be this grand gesture or these big things or you know, given a lot of money. And sometimes it can be just our time and an embrace. And so I really love that story. And I also share a tip for offering a hug in that episode.
P.S. I hope I brought some information that is helpful. And if you have any questions about anything I shared today, don’t hesitate to reach out to me [email protected] you can find me on Instagram @theunleashedheart you can DM me there or my website through my website as well theunleashedheart.com I will put some information in the show notes for your quick reference. But until next time, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing if you found it helpful, and remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Reena Friedman Watts: Multiple Miscarriage Experience & Words of Wisdom
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**Reena shares graphic details of her two miscarriages. Please consider this if you have personally experienced a miscarriage.**
We go deep in this conversation, talking about the environment a bereaved mother experiencing miscarriage goes through, through the eyes of Reena’s experience.
We touch on the loss of her grandfather as well, and the relationship he and her grandmother had. Reena reflects on that relationship with her grandparents and shares wisdom from her 92-year-old grandmother, as well as wise words from her father.
Reena shares a lovely story and lesson on charity. Charity doesn’t have to be money. As Reena’s story illustrates, that charity can be time and an embrace. I also share a tip about offering grievers a hug, too!
So much wisdom in this episode. Even if you haven’t experienced a miscarriage, you likely know someone who has; you’ll find Reena’s words help to support others.
Connect with Reena:
______
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:00
Welcome to the show today my guest is Reena Friedman Watts. I’m so excited to have you here.
Reena Friedman Watts 0:09
Thank you. I’m so excited to connect with you too.
Victoria Volk 0:12
Again, because I was on your podcast, and now you return the favor and you’re a guest on mine. And it’s been so fun to get to know you through Instagram. And when we first connected and yeah, you’re just a spitfire and I, I’ve just enjoyed getting to know you. And I’m, I’m sure that whoever listens to this will get something good, good nugget. Today, oh, tell us about yourself.
Reena Friedman Watts 0:40
I am a mom of four. I am an entrepreneur for the last couple of years, I have pivoted many times in my career, the first half of my career was in television. And then I took a mommy break where I had three kids in four years. And then while my kids were in preschool, I kind of inched my way back into working part time. So that was passing out flyers for divorce court and casting for court TV. And then I took a program manager role at avoid company and then wanted to work closer to home. So I could be there when my kids hopped off the bus. So I worked for a financial firm for a year and a half that led me to creating Lunch and Learn type of events in the corporate space. And then I really loved the event space. However, I didn’t so much love the financial space. So I then decided to get into entrepreneurial events and fell in love with that I love entrepreneurs. And I think my love of entrepreneurship ties in to my television roots, really, because entrepreneurs they bounce around, they have to constantly pivot. And when you work in TV, it’s the same way you know, you work on a pilot, it either gets picked up or you’re on unemployment.
Victoria Volk 2:00
Well, and if anybody checks you out, you have a podcast called Better Called Daddy. And if anyone checks that out, it totally I see the roots of that background used into it very much. So with entrepreneurship, it’s a lot of creativity that you have to rely on. And you’re definitely expressing that for sure. I love it. What led to better call daddy podcast?
Reena Friedman Watts 2:28
Oh my gosh, my dad has wanted me to be in front of the camera my entire career. And I have worked behind the scenes of a lot of other people. And I was happy doing that. And I feel like in order to be a good entrepreneur, a lot of the time, you do need to get ideas from others. And you do need to find out systems and ways to do things like my husband is a really good workhorse. He’s worked for big organizations, he’s good at corporate. I’m not that, but he yearns for entrepreneurship. And I was like, You know what, all of these things that you’re learning, he might one day be able to do the entrepreneur thing. But he’s like an entrepreneur. And I did the entrepreneur role for a while to get that financial firm, I had my own corner office, but I still had a boss. And I still reported to him. And he still got a chunk of everything I brought through the door. But I had a lot of freedom. And I had a lot of creativity and had I not had that role. I don’t think that I would have done many of the things that I’ve done now. So I have to be ready.
Victoria Volk 3:34
And I think a lot of what we experienced before entrepreneurship lays the foundation for entrepreneurship. And when you say that parenthood does too, like even just being a parent, like I talk about all the time, it’s like there’s two things that really grow person entrepreneurship and being a parent and bring up a lot of grief for us too!
Reena Friedman Watts 3:57
That is a good transition. And I was gonna say you know, being a parent has knocked me off my feet literally because after my first kid, first of all, I was 28 with my first kid, my mom had me at 18 that is something I didn’t want and I wasn’t ready for you know, she had a serious relationship. She married her high school sweetheart, but I was far from that. And I really wanted to stand on my own two feet and be able to live the big city life and make a paycheck and know that I could support myself prior to jumping into a relationship. So I had my first kid at 28 I you know, I lived in Chicago, I lived in LA I made a good salary. I thought I had gotten it out of my system of wanting to work. I was like yeah, I want to be a mom. I want to get married. I’m ready for that chapter. Then I met a guy we got married within eight months, I left my career moved to a new city new no one was making no money. He’s finishing his PhD. I’m like, I hate marriage. I hate life. What did I do that first year was trauma. It was so hard. I questioned everything, a lot of change. And then I got knocked up six months in. And I had a kid that was overwhelming. I literally did not get my first babysitter until he was like 18 months or something. I felt like just stuck in the house and that he always wanted me and I nursed him until he was two years old. And once I got him to sleep, I didn’t move from the chair. I was just holding this kid. I’m like, Okay, he’s asleep. I’m not gonna move. I mean, he overtook my life. And with the next one, she was so easy. A while Oh, in between the two, I had a miscarriage. I wanted to talk about that. And we had moved to Kentucky, because my husband got a great offer. And it was in my hometown. And we thought it would be nice to be near my parents and grandparents and have a chapter of that for a bit. So I had a miscarriage literally at my parents house, like I was having cramps, and I went into the shower, and then in the shower, there is something that rain, I wasn’t sure what that was. But I had already, you know, found out that I was pregnant and gone in and like heard the heartbeat. And it was the craziest experience. Because I guess if you just haven’t talked to other people about that, or you’ve had a healthy baby first, you just have no idea what I had never talked to anybody about miscarriage before. And seeing that in the drain. First of all, I heard myself cry like I had never cried before. And it just overtook me where I didn’t even know where that came from. that emotion, your hormones are just completely out of whack. And I literally scooped it up out of the drain, and put it in a bag and drove myself to the hospital because my mom had to stay there with my kid. And I had a girlfriend from my hometown that was a doctor and she came and met me there. But until then I was just literally sitting in the waiting room bleeding and alone.
Victoria Volk 7:04
And you feel
Reena Friedman Watts 7:07
I don’t even know how to describe that loss.
Victoria Volk 7:10
Yeah I can’t even I can’t even wrap my head around it.
Reena Friedman Watts 7:13
It was crazy. And then you go in with the doctor, and they’re like, there’s nothing in there. After you’ve already seen something in there, right? So you just have to like, process that. And it was very strange. And then, you know, back to juggling being a mom and sharing that with your husband. And actually my husband was really emotional about it, too. You know, I think since he had a healthy baby, and we got excited for a little bit there. He actually cried. And then seeing how it affected him and kind of like made me feel better. I was like, Oh, good guy
Victoria Volk 7:53
Well, they agreed too right?
Reena Friedman Watts 7:55
He did he actually their own way, grandfather. Yeah, I remember that. And then the second time that had happened was after my third kid. And I’ll be honest, I was working too much, and not really taking care of myself. And you can’t blame yourself, but you do. And I had just produced a big event in LA, you know, and I was working 12 hour days that whole week. And I came back and it happened like days after. Again. I went to the doctor This time though, like it hadn’t come out. And so I saw on the screen, the baby with no heartbeat. And really that’s what they said. They said there’s no heartbeat. And that’s really all they said. And I was even thinking about this before we got on the call today. And I was talking to my dad about it actually. And I was like, I remember calling my dad first because he was so excited that I was pregnant and he felt like you know, wow, you can have one more before you’re 40 you know, like he’s really into having kids and you know, that’s your legacy. And he always wanted he had three sisters and three daughters and he always wanted to sign and he’s always been a big supporter of having more kids so he cried on the phone with me I’m so lucky to have emotional like hearing men in my life like and him crying actually like I cried with him and I felt better from that
Victoria Volk 9:28
I grieve together and that that’s the thing like we want to grieve to be able to grieve in community so you don’t feel so alone. So you feel supported and how makes a difference?
Reena Friedman Watts 9:39
A big difference.
Victoria Volk 9:42
I’m curious to like how you felt when you go to the doctor, it feels like such a sterile environment. And is there anything when you when they know you’re coming, and you’re going to have this experience? I’m just curious like how is do they is it still like that? Is it still feel like, is it? Oh, he’s gonna have the baby. You know what I mean? Like when you have a baby, it’s, yeah, it’s a sterile environment, it’s a hospital, it looks like a hospital feels like a hospital. But when you’re going through something like that, it’s like to have like soft lighting or to have a warmer environment, or do you know what I mean? Like not to say, you know what I mean, like not to set the mood, but just to feel less like a clinical situation and more of like, a supported.
Reena Friedman Watts 10:33
So I went to like a doula and a midwife, versus going to a doctor’s office, and the lady who had delivered my third baby, did come into the room and hugged me. And she didn’t even say much. But that really also helped. Because the nurse prior to her was just like, there’s no heartbeat, and I’m sorry, and she’s like, you can have the room for five minutes. Like, she was not compassionate. And that actually brought me to tears. But, and what else was really hard, too, is, I feel like there should almost be two separate waiting rooms, like the one for the people that are pregnant and rubbing their bellies and happy and things are going well. And then another room for the ones that things aren’t going according to plan. Because when you walk out and you’re like red faced, and just experience something like that, and you have like husbands holding their wives belly is and all of these happy people, you’re just you feel like a cancer patient, you feel like you’re doing the walk of shame past these people, it’s really a difficult situation.
Victoria Volk 11:47
You’re literally looking at the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations right in front of you. Right? Yeah, so I totally understand where you’re coming from, I don’t understand it. But it just brings to light like hospitals and facilities. And they need to rethink how they take care of families and women in these situations, definitely to consider how they’re showing compassion and empathy and with the environment with, do they even go through, like some sort of compassionate course. You know, like something, you know, I don’t know, I’ve never thought about this. But that’s why I’m bringing this up. Because if you’re in health care, and you’re listening to this, and you deliver babies, listen up, it leaves an impression on people, and it leaves an imprint on your heart, right?
Reena Friedman Watts 12:38
Oh, most definitely. And I had told you on the podcast that we did together, when I went to they make you get a blood test, to monitor that your hormones level are decreasing, to make sure that everything is going out of your body. And again, like the nurse said to me, you’re the abort, that miscarriage, like that kind of slip up when you’re in that state was really like a low blow.
Victoria Volk 13:10
I’m sorry, you had to experience it that way. Really, you’re not the only one. I’m sure you’re not the only one. And that’s the thing. It’s, and as you know, I know we talked about it, I think when I was on your podcast, so miscarriage is one of the most minimize losses. And I think it’s this lack of understanding, maybe even compassion because you haven’t experienced it or empathy. Because I do think when you’ve experienced some level of loss and grief in your life, you do look at other people’s loss and grief with probably more compassion than you would if you have never experienced something that way. Because you can, it’s a little bit easier, I think, to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. Not that you Not that I know what you feel like or have or felt like, but I can’t imagine. But I can empathize. And I think that’s missing in just the healthcare system, in the regard of miscarriage, just in talking to you and other stories to not yours isn’t. That’s the thing. yours isn’t the only one that’s like that, really about that experience. You had mentioned about hormones, and I know that there’s something you’d like to share about hormones more so from I actually before someone comes on as a guest, I have them fill out a form. One of the questions I asked is what would you like to scream to the world and rayna wrote hormones or hell. So would you like to elaborate on that?
Reena Friedman Watts 14:45
They Oh my gosh. They make you cry to the littlest things. It could be or you know, that’s why so many women are crying during pregnancy but you when you nurse your hormone levels are still off. This happen can happen like up till two years after having a child, your hormone levels are not the same. And you’re more emotional, you’re sleep deprived and the combination of the two. I don’t know if I had postpartum depression, but I can tell you my hormones definitely made me crazy.
Victoria Volk 15:25
While and you would have had, they’re kind of close in age to right? the first the first miscarriage and then your first child, it would have been a little close in age, right?
Reena Friedman Watts 15:35
They would have been around exactly two years.
Victoria Volk 15:39
But you were still nursing even to or you just finished nursing. So just the combination of that and then having insole like when you have a miscarriage, the fluctuation of the hormones, I can’t imagine too, it’s almost like your system goes into a shock as well. Like your body goes into a shock I Imagine.
Reena Friedman Watts 15:59
oh my gosh, yeah, I would love to like track my hormone levels. And in those four years, because I went from being pregnant to having a miscarriage to having another kid to nursing until my third kid came. I mean, I was like nursing and having babies for four years. And then my third get I nursed for another two years. So I
Victoria Volk 16:22
And on top of the grief, right? Like all of that, like on top of the grief.
Reena Friedman Watts 16:27
Which I didn’t even really process. I don’t think like you were saying grief compounds. And sometimes you don’t think about it until you have another grief or you have something that happens in your life. And you think about all of these things at once. Like when I had another miscarriage, it just brought me back to how I felt that first time I felt a little bit more prepared for the second one. But there’s nothing that can prepare you for hearing the words there is no heartbeat and seeing a baby on the screen inside of you that’s dead. There’s nothing that can prepare you for that. When someone says that to you. And when you see that image on a screen, it will knock your breath breath out. It’s unreal.
Victoria Volk 17:19
I have three healthy children and I’ve never experienced that and I my mama heart goes out to yours are nodding you’re just not even once but twice. Like I can’t even imagine.
Reena Friedman Watts 17:31
You know my sister got pregnant. I was pregnant with both of my sisters with the last miscarriage. So they ended up having babies and I lost a baby when they had one. And I have to say like one of my sisters wasn’t necessarily so excited about being pregnant. But when I went through that it changed her entire perspective. So I felt like in some ways maybe that was good. Like she was much more grateful for the healthy baby she was able to have
Victoria Volk 18:08
and sometimes that’s all we need to as a perspective shift right? To see what is in front of us as it’s really hard to like in those times to win after the second miscarriage and all these all the changes that you went through. Like Where was your gratitude? Like Where? How did you find it? How did you get through what helped you the most?
Reena Friedman Watts 18:35
I know it’s gonna sound buddy, but I called my dad from the hospital. He grieved with me like you said, he cried with me. He was I honestly feel like in some ways, and my husband my husband doesn’t like when I say it, but he is part of the reason why I chose to have another one. Because I saw how much he wanted me to Oh, he was like, I could still add wonder 39 you know, and his dad had passed away and he really wanted and I named the baby after his dad. So my dad’s my dad’s dad was Marvin and I took the second half of that then and I call my baby Vinnie because he’s like the second half of his life. So his legal name is Marvin but I call him Vinnie.
Victoria Volk 19:31
So you actually mentioned to your grandfather is it
Reena Friedman Watts 19:34
so my mom like I said had me very young and I was fortunate enough to grow up with all four of my grandparents. And we all lived in Kentucky very close together, got together for holidays and you know, performances and my grandparents were like second parents to me. I really spent a lot of time with them pretty much most weekends until Middle School. My parents love to pawn me off and send me there on weekends. But my grandparents ate that up. That was the generation that they came from. They love to spoil me. They love to take me shopping, they love to take me to the grocery and honestly, just watching Jeopardy with them, or spending time with them was I treasured?
Victoria Volk 20:22
That sounds like that’s a blessing. Yeah, I didn’t really grow up with grandparents. So that’s a grief of mine, you know? So I’m sure that’s a treasure for you. Did you want to speak a little bit more to your grandfather? I know that was one thing that you had mentioned you wanted to talk about?
Reena Friedman Watts 20:39
Yeah, so my grandmother just celebrated her 92nd birthday yesterday. And it’s four years without my grandfather, and they were married for over 65 years. I was just praying that she was going to make it to this birthday. It’s been it’s been a hard year for her to be alone, my dad actually flew out to see her. I feel like just seeing my grandmother, you know, he’s my first grandparent to pass away and seeing her start to, you know, age. Whatever you want to call it. I feel like it’s just now she’s a whippersnapper. But seeing her starting to slow down. I feel like it’s the end of a chapter and you feel like oh, my God, like then your parents are next in line and you start thinking about that. That’s been humbling. Lately, that’s been something I’ve been thinking about. What is it to be next in line? And is that going to be my dad? Am I going to be taking care of him? How long? Is he going to be able to stand on his own two feet? Is he going to be the grandfather that my grandparents were? And if not, that’s okay, but who is he going to be? What’s he going to be thinking about end of life?
Victoria Volk 21:57
How do you communicate? I’m curious to how you communicate that with your kids, because your kids are growing up with their great grandparents? I mean, what a blessing to you know, so how do you communicate? Oh, have you been communicating?
Reena Friedman Watts 22:12
Well, I make them call and wish her a happy birthday. And they see how I have a very special connection with my grandparents, they definitely know that they know that me losing my grandfather was hard. We actually found out on a Saturday night. And then the funeral is Sunday. And we drove all the way from Chicago to New Jersey through the night to be there. So they know how important that those relationships have been to me. But I feel sad in some ways that they’re not having as many memories, but I also believe that God gives you what you need, right? So maybe I was the kid that needed that. You know, my mom had me at 18. I had them a decade later. So maybe we’re different parents.
Victoria Volk 23:06
How did your dad communicate with you about grief?
Reena Friedman Watts 23:09
Oh my gosh, my dad wears his heart on his sleeve. Have we had a conversation directly about grief? I’m not sure if we have in regards to your episode, even he talks about how important it is to know yourself. And he has such a strong sense of self. And purpose. I actually envy that about him. He is so clear as to why he’s here and what his legacy is and who he is. And it’s funny because growing up I didn’t like that. I was like God, you don’t care what anybody thinks he is the guy that is literally happy with his lot. He doesn’t want to travel the world. He doesn’t want a bigger house. He doesn’t want fancier things. He is so happy with who he is and what God has given him. I really want to be more like that. So back to your question. How does he see grief? I think he really tries to make the best of life.
Victoria Volk 24:10
Well and I think to like just tell you explain how he wore his he wears his heart on his sleeve. And so that gives you permission to do the same. You may not have had a specific conversation about grief. But to be that example of showing your feelings and expressing your feelings as being okay. It’s like having the conversation without having it.
Reena Friedman Watts 24:35
Not only that, but he flew down to Florida to spend my grandmother’s 92nd birthday with her in a mask. He’s risking you know she hasn’t left her place in seven months and he wanted to make sure that she had the salmon dinner that she wanted you know, so he is with her and of days he is with her till the end. He is a soldier till the end. He’s with her I have to decline. And unfortunately, he calls her every day. He calls me every day, he tells me, I wouldn’t want to be in this life without you.
Victoria Volk 25:10
No wonder you have a podcast named better called daddy. It sounds like and that’s the thing, like, the examples that we have in our lives, definitely contribute to how we address and deal with our own grief and how we can then pass the torch and do the same for our children makes a big difference, to feel supported, to feel held to feel that it’s okay to not be okay.
Reena Friedman Watts 25:40
I just thought of something else. That’s funny, my grandmother said, you know, if you lay down and act like a doormat, in today’s day and age, people will step on you and use you as one, you better keep moving.
Victoria Volk 25:52
That’s a good piece of advice.
Reena Friedman Watts 25:55
Unfortunately, Drew, and she has been able to take care of herself, honestly, for the most part until 92 years old. I’m like Grandma, amazing, really, I even said to my dad is like that. She has done it as long as she can. And God loves her 92 she has been, you know, amazing. But she needs more help. It’s time, like she does. I’m like she cannot cook her meals anymore. You know,
Victoria Volk 26:22
How is she dealing with that? You know, how is she dealing with being faced with? Like, that’s great for her. I imagine. I mean, she lost the love of her life four years ago, and now she sees her mortality ahead of her. You know, does she How does she communicate that? Was she that example for your dad? Like, is this something that your dad learned? Like, how he deals with things life? Like? Has he learned that from her?
Reena Friedman Watts 26:53
That’s a great question. I will say that two days ago, or even a day ago, she said to me, and she’s never said this to me before. waking up every day is a gift and you hear that. But she feels that now. And it’s funny because at the end of my grandfather’s life, the last thing I remember him saying to me is how do you get more time. And I feel like when people start saying things like that, they’re definitely thinking about the next world,
Victoria Volk 27:20
You have such a unique perspective, because you do have your grandparents. And it’s this is I talk a lot about generational learning, especially when it comes to grief and how the things that we learn, you know, when we pass on, we pass on to our kids. And so that’s why I was very curious how your dad learned his philosophy of life.
Reena Friedman Watts 27:45
I would say it’s from his parents, for sure. I he had a great example. I mean, they were married, I think 66 years. And he worked alongside them for his entire career in a family business, not knowing how to do business, but he learned how to really relationship, build and sell and all of those things from them.
Victoria Volk 28:08
And like we said earlier, entrepreneurship. Oh, yeah, well, in a girl’s you, in so many ways, there’s a lot of benefits to it. So what is one tip that you would give other hurting hearts that may have experienced what you have? Or just in your business that you have been in the work that you have done? Like anything that you’ve learned along the way?
Reena Friedman Watts 28:37
Call my daddy you know.
Victoria Volk 28:41
Your dad maybe needs to put a hotline? What would daddy say? It’s true, Daddy say.com.
Reena Friedman Watts 28:51
Daddy’s taking questions, I really should put that at the end of my show. Um, I think a tip that I would give is find someone who you feel comfortable and not judged by that you can really open up to you. I think if I’ve learned one thing this year and through COVID it’s that and I heard someone say this on my podcast, you know, 50% of people are gonna like you. And those are the 50 that’s who you should be giving your attention to. Why spend your time on the people who are going to judge you spend the time on the people who love you.
Victoria Volk 29:26
That’s true. And that’s engraved too, right? Yeah, because in grief, you know, heart with yours. I mentioned it before. I’ve said it many times, to be a heart with yours. It’s not judging, analyzing or criticizing in a safe person to just hold you in your sadness.
Reena Friedman Watts 29:47
It makes all the difference. I’m telling you that doula who hugged me and said nothing. I felt okay. I felt better.
Victoria Volk 29:56
And that’s actually a tip I’m going to bring up a tip. So If someone is what we learn in grief recovery, and I’ll share this with you, and I’ll share it with everyone listening, when someone is grieving, and you go to hug them, you’re not released the hug until they do, because maybe they need that time. Maybe they just, you know, maybe they’ll start crying, maybe that’s what they need. But if you are giving them a hug, if you ask permission, yeah, hug you. Sometimes people don’t want to be hugged. But ask, you know, may I give you a hug. And if they want a hug, do not release the hug until they do
Reena Friedman Watts 30:35
You know what that just reminded me of this is so random. There is a woman who I kept running into, in Israel at the Western Wall, and God loved this woman. She asked me for charity every single time and I went there because I was on like a summer trip. And I must have run into her at least 10 times. And I think on the last day or something, I was getting ready to leave the country even. I sat down with her. And it was like you Tell me your story, you know? And she was like, Can you read my shoulders. And I remember her sweater being super crusty and hard. And I did it though. And then I listened to her story. And I remember hugging that crusty sweater at the end of it. And her actually like, holding on to me, I don’t know why your story just reminded me of that. But I felt better doing that than all of the money I had given her and all of those 10 separate occasions. I actually felt like close to her from doing that. It’s amazing what touch can do.
Victoria Volk 31:50
Absolutely. I love that story. Awesome
Reena Friedman Watts 31:54
It’s a crazy story. And I haven’t thought about that in years. I was like, why? And what else is interesting is like, there’s an exit ramp off the highway, and my dad always gives and I’m like, Dad, I’m like, it’s the same guy every day. Like, you know what I mean? Like, are you gonna run out? I’m like, he’s like, well, if God puts him in my path, and he’s got to ask, I gotta give and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I definitely learned that from him. But I’m a little bit more. I mean, with COVID, especially, but just more scared of people that my dad, my dad rolls down the window, and like, What if he could like, reach in or whatever, and I’m a mom of four. So I would give to an organization versus like the man on the street. But these are things that we learn right? back to that,
Victoria Volk 32:39
What is, I know you’ve said to like, just to have, you didn’t really have a lot of time. Now we’re going to go back to your experiences and stuff, but you didn’t have a lot of time to process. Do you feel like, I don’t know how many years? It’s been since but do you feel like that passage of time because people say, well, Time heals all wounds? That’s a myth, by the way, What has time done for you?
Reena Friedman Watts 33:06
So? That’s a good question. It’s really strange. But when you have a miscarriage early on, people are always like, oh, how far along were you? Not that that makes it any better like a lie. You know, once you know you’re pregnant, and once you see it, you’re excited, and you have all these emotions and all these hormones, but I have friends that have lost babies a lot farther along, I’ve had friends that have lost them full term, I have one friend who had to have a late term abortion because the baby’s head didn’t grow together. And I think if I were in a situation like that, I don’t know if I would ever get over it. My grandmother actually lost a full term baby, and she lost a baby in a month old. And I think that was devastating to her devastating to my grandfather, I think it’s something that they’ve never forgotten. I think when you lose one, in the first three months, maybe because both of mine were like that, I feel like you’re able to tell yourself that it’s from God and that, you know, I don’t know, you’re able to dismiss it more. It’s so small, it doesn’t really look or feel like a baby yet. To me, it looks like tissue, you know, and yes, I had contractions and yes, I had, you know, the feeling of being pregnant and you know, your emotions, all these things, but I think if I would have felt the baby move, or if I would have had to make that call, I think it would have been much more devastating. My two friends that experience that both had to get outside help, and they never had to before. One of my friends it was her first child and another one of my friends was actually pregnant with me this last time and it was her fourth child. Oh, that was really hard to because when I had the three pound baby and she lost a baby that was four and a half pounds, she said to me, how did you know to go in? And truthfully I didn’t. I just knew that I had missed a doctor’s appointment, my kid at a play like the week before, and I was like, I think I missed a doctor’s appointment. And as soon as I you know, you’re a busy mom of three or like, you forget things. So the moment I realized I had forgotten as a guide, I was like, this baby doesn’t move that much. I was like, the only time I really feel him is like when I go to sleep, or when I eat. So the next day I went in, and then when I went in, they told me that the heart rate was going up and down that the placenta was detaching, they were like, at my kid was home from school sick. They were like, you need to go to the hospital. And then they monitored me. And then they didn’t even tell me but they were like prepping me for a C section. And, you know, they make you sign the paperwork when you go in. And that was very emotional, too, because I had had three natural births. And I was like, really into, like, the empowerment of being able to do that. And I had to sign that away. And there, the baby would not have survived if I would have tried to do things differently. So I guess that’s a trauma in some ways.
Victoria Volk 36:13
Absolutely. Well, yeah, absolutely. And so that’s why I’m curious. And through the passage of time, how have you like what are things that you have done to?
Or do you feel like you’ve healed a lot
Reena Friedman Watts 36:28
I think talking about it really is healing. And truthfully, the more I talk to people on my show about experiences that they’ve had, there are so many people that are afraid to be vulnerable. I cannot tell you how many people have messaged me in DMS now from some of the stories that I’ve heard, telling me that they could never air those things. But they would love to talk to me and I said, let’s do it. I have a call next week with a girlfriend from college that I had no idea what happened to her. And she was like, I could never share this. And if I shared it, it would be anonymous, do you want to have a call and I’m like, I’d love to catch up with you. So I really do think that talking is healing. And I have been way more vulnerable than I planned to be just from other people being vulnerable. It makes you feel more comfortable.
Victoria Volk 37:21
When in grief recovery to I go first, like as a facilitator of the program, I go first. And, and that’s the thing, like you can’t expect other people to share and open up if you’re not willing to do the same. And I’ve shared things too, that I never thought I would you know, through just the past year.
Reena Friedman Watts 37:44
I know that we talked about that on my podcast, or like, I’m not talking about that. Have you been able to break through?
Victoria Volk 37:50
Not yet.
But me on the spot. This is my show. It’s hard. It is
It is hard. There are so many, so many things I’m passionate about in terms of when it comes to grief and trauma, and how trauma is like stored in our bodies. And so what you had said, you know, that experience of just the process of having to still like deliver a baby that you’re not going home with, and that just everything that you shared, that sticks in us that that stays somewhere, you know, mostly imprinted on us
Reena Friedman Watts 38:36
If he told me to go home and take a couple Advil and brace yourself. And hopefully it comes out and let us know if it doesn’t. And they’re like, and then just come back. And we’ll monitor that your hormone levels went down so that you don’t have to have a DNC and luckily, luckily, my body did make everything come out. But that’s a tough way of saying things. Go take a couple Advil and call me in the morning.
Victoria Volk 39:05
Yeah, it just comes again it comes back to just like having like some sort of compassion course or something for people that you know and is it I wonder if it’s not a little bit about something that they see so often you almost come become desensitized to it in a way and I imagine that’s great for them to to see that day in and day out in their career. Like Actually, this is a really like sad fact. But veterinarians, the suicide rate in veterinarians is actually quite high. It’s one of the highest professions of suicide, right? Because you they go into that profession because they love it so much. But what do they do day in and day out? They euthanize animals, they put animals to sleep, they see animal suffering. It takes a special person to be able to do that. And it takes a special person to Be able to sit with someone in a moment like such as yours. But I think too, there is a danger in becoming, as a society desensitized to something. And where it’s not normalized by communicating about it, and how to communicate about it. Right?
Reena Friedman Watts 40:22
So many scares along the way? I had a tear. So I since I had had a miscarriage before I was like, Oh, no, there’s blood, it must be a miscarriage, but I actually had a tear, and then the tear healed. And I also was 39. So, you know, they say, do you want to take additional tests? And the fact that I’d had a miscarriage before? So then Are you high risk, you know, there’s so many scares along the way. And, like, you were bringing up the sensitivity training. You know, it’s like, you get one little piece of good news. And then you’re like, has there been someone like me that has been at this point that is still heard bad news, you know, like, you want somebody to tell it to you straight, but at the same time, you’re like, can you prepare me like, Oh, it’s, Oh, my gosh, this child is such such a miracle.
Victoria Volk 41:23
I just had an idea. This isn’t too for like doctors offices, listen up. For people that for women that have to go in to, you know, like you said, you have to go into in certain watch women with their bellies full and happy. And you know, with the expecting a baby, and everything’s good, and all of that, and you’re sitting in the same waiting room, it’s like, not only to have your own waiting room, but then to have someone sitting with you like volunteers of women who have gone through it. Like, wouldn’t that be amazing?
Reena Friedman Watts 41:59
I actually have reached out to people in the community that have posted after a miscarriage, and said, Hey, if you need somebody to talk to you, I’ve been there. One thing about that, though, is depending on the person, and how far along they are, sometimes I’ve seen, they don’t feel like they can relate to you. So everybody reacts differently, like sometimes they can be happy that you’ve reached out and sometimes it can be offensive even.
Victoria Volk 42:32
That’s true. Well, and I think too, like it can’t just be someone who, you know, maybe, you know, maybe has had that experience, but maybe, maybe has had sensitivity training themselves, or has done some, like a grief recovery specialist, you know, or someone like I haven’t had a miscarriage, but I feel comfortable and competent in sitting with someone, regardless of their loss. But I can see where someone who’s going through that would want someone maybe that has had that shared experience. Even it’s funny. But similar,
Reena Friedman Watts 43:10
Even with divorce, like I was casting for a divorce court show, and I’m standing there with a baby strapped to my chest and beyond handing out flyers casting for the show. And they’re like, are you divorced, in order for somebody to want to open up to you about the trauma that they’re going through, even with something like that, they want to know, if you’re in the same boat
Victoria Volk 43:33
That comes back to we tend to compare losses in society, too. And, you know, well, I’ve lost a baby. And I lost my dad, you know, and so it’s their polar opposite losses, very different losses. In my experience, grief is grief. No matter which way you slice it. And my grief is my grief and your grief is your grief. And it’s going to be different and unique, because I’m unique, and you’re different and unique. We’re all unique, you know, and so our grief is no different individual to us. How do you feel the person that you were before you’ve experienced loss to the person you are today? How do you feel you have grown through grief?
Reena Friedman Watts 44:21
I do think that grief is an aging process. I think as a child, you can’t even really wrap your head around it. Like when I took my kids to my grandfather’s funeral because it was a quick overnight trip. We didn’t have time to make plans for them. And I wasn’t even sure I wanted to bring them. But what did my kids notice about that? They noticed the people who were the most vocal criers or you know as a kid, he just can’t even really process was happening. I was worried about bringing them because they were young and they were seeing somebody being put into the ground. And I hadn’t really ever talked to them about that. Oh, that is such a good question. I actually only think I’ve ever seen one dead person my entire life, because in the Jewish circles, everything is closed casket, but I had a friend growing up, they got hit by a drunk driver. And he had an open casket, I will never get that out of my mind. That was traumatizing, actually. And I have a girlfriend, who was a very close friend of mine growing up and her brother got hit by an older gentleman. And he was in his 20s. And I remember that grief on her parents faces, it was like their souls are sucked out of them. losing a child is such, especially a 24 year old was a grief I had never seen before. And I still remember how they sounded crying. I was in my 20s, though. So I think in your 20s, you’re able to start understanding it better and kind of get out of your selfishness. But in your 40s, I think you start thinking about life, and the meaning of your life. In reaction to death.
Victoria Volk 46:11
It goes back to when you had said, what was it that your grandma had said, every day as a gift every day is a gift, but to really for you to hear that for the first time it seemed and
Reena Friedman Watts 46:24
And hearing her saying that while shutting her eyes and saying it slowly and thoughtfully, was scary, and profound. And I was like, Oh my god, she is really thankful for every day at this point. And every day to her right now is a gift. Like we take every day for granted when we’re in our 20s. But when you’re at 92, and you’ve had a stroke and a heart attack, and you’re alone for seven months, and you’re only visitors coming for your birthday, when you say every day is a gift those words ring so much louder.
Victoria Volk 47:00
And I think too like even in her 40s take it for granted easily.
Reena Friedman Watts 47:06
I definitely do. You still go to bed mad? About silly things.
Victoria Volk 47:13
There’s no do overs either.
Reena Friedman Watts 47:15
Can I ask you one question? Sure. Do you love grief?
Victoria Volk 47:18
Grief is my jam. I’ve had a life long relationship with it lifelong. Every experience I’ve ever had, has prepared me to start a podcast about grief. It’s no longer like
Reena Friedman Watts 47:36
Hello, grief, my old friend.
Victoria Volk 47:39
We meet again, because it’s life, right? And that’s the joy and the sorrow. and everything in between is the duality of life. And we can’t escape it, we can’t get around it. We just have to go through it like a buffalo aces, like a buffalo faces a storm, they don’t. They go right through it, they don’t skirt around it, they don’t run away from it, they go through it. And I guess that’s the analogy I would give about grief is that there’s no way out. the only the only way out is through and whatever that looks like for you. And however you get to the other side of it. And you know, whatever tools you learn along the way, and whoever you talk to, and whatever shoulders, you rub and hear their stories, whatever you take away from them. Their perspective. There’s, we have so much to learn from each other. in society, and especially through our grief, and our grieving voices.
Reena Friedman Watts 48:42
I feel like there was grief in that woman’s sweater. And how crazy that she wanted me to touch her. She felt some sort of closeness for me giving her charity more than once. And for me running into her a bunch of times on that special summer on that special trip.
Victoria Volk 48:59
And you know what? how sad it would have been if it would have been somebody else. And they would have said, touching you not touching that sweater.
Reena Friedman Watts 49:09
I still remember what that felt like I don’t think I’ve ever done that. I’ve never felt that anywhere else.
Victoria Volk 49:16
You were a blessing to her that day.
Reena Friedman Watts 49:18
So crazy that God put her on my path. And what kind of grief She must have experienced.
Victoria Volk 49:25
And that brings up a good point because it’s it’s when we often see people who just look like they’ve seen better days. And you know, might even be angry. It might be the lady at the checkout line. It might be you know the boss that’s just really down your throat, whatever it is. I think it’s so easy to be reactive. Instead of thinking about well, what’s going on like what happened? How did you get to this place? How did you get to be so angry and What happened to you? Is we all have a story. We all have experienced grief on some level. Most of us I think, like 99.9. I mean, I don’t know that I’ve ever met somebody who has not experienced any loss. Whether it’s even just a pet, bankruptcy, financial ruin, lost a business, or maybe their house burned. I mean, we all experienced loss, we just don’t think of it as grief, because it’s not someone dying. But no one has to die for us to experience grief. And like I said, you know, on your podcast, you know, grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so like, we have all these experiences that stack up and every one of us has a book within us, because that’s life. Like your grandma said, it’s every single day is a blessing and we can’t no joy without the sorrow. And maybe that was her message and saying that
Reena Friedman Watts 50:59
I should totally call her tonight. Yeah, do that. You know, it’s interesting to her English birthday is the same day as my Hebrew birthday this year. And that’s I don’t know if that’s happened before but my sister lives in Israel now. And she sent me that I was like, Wow, that’s really interesting that she made that connection. So I celebrated my birthday yesterday and I’m going to celebrate it again and two more days.
Victoria Volk 51:20
Awesome. Yeah, definitely call her
Reena Friedman Watts 51:24
Pretty cool. I don’t know how many times that’s occurred in her 92 years but pretty special as
Victoria Volk 51:30
Well. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Reena Friedman Watts 51:33
Check out my podcast.
Victoria Volk 51:35
Yes,
and where can people find you?
Reena Friedman Watts 51:39
Bettercalldaddy.com. All the past episodes are there and I am a LinkedIn a Holic so you can connect with me on LinkedIn at Reena Friedman Watts or Instagram Reena Freedman Watts or Facebook Rena Friedman Watts. I have been working on my
Victoria Volk 51:55
That’s W A T T S.
Reena Friedman Watts 51:57
Yes, Rena, with two E’s and watts with two T’s. I’ve been working on my branding that everything matches across platforms because I’m making it easier for people although my Twitter is still Reena Reena,
Victoria Volk 52:10
Reena Reena, I like that. Well, thank you so much for being here.
We covered a lot.
I don’t want in all kinds of directions today. And that’s I love that. never know what to expect.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:22
I love that too.
Victoria Volk 52:23
Well, thank you for being here and for sharing your story and putting me in the hot seat a little bit.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:31
I’m so excited to see like your whole evolution. It’s really awesome to be a part of it.
Victoria Volk 52:38
You’ve been such a supportive friend. So thank you. Thank you so much.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:43
Anytime, anytime, if you ever just want to talk. Yeah, give you a virtual hug.
Victoria Volk 52:49
Likewise. Alright, well, thank you, everybody for listening, and I’ll catch you next week with another episode. In the meantime, take care of yourselves. Much love
