Ep 18 | Lindsay Taylor

Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast | 0 comments

Lindsay Joy Taylor: A Mother-Connection Lost in Childhood

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Lindsay’s mother was murdered when she was a toddler. Being the youngest of three children, she speaks to her experience of what it was like growing up without her mom, and how she found a way to honor her mother’s memory.

Lindsay found the joy in her middle name again, with the birth of her business, The Joyful Jewelry Box, and as a Grief Advocate.

Be a fly on the wall of a conversation that covers family grief, the impact child loss had on Lindsay, and how she’s learned to move forward throughout her life.

Childhood grief is a unique club. When you grow up with sorrow, it becomes familiar – so much so, you’re not sure what life is like without it. Lindsay and I share that truth.  Lindsay shares how her experience growing up with grief has shaped the decisions she’s made throughout her life.

Resources Mentioned:

• Book, Before and After Loss by Lisa M. Shulman, M.D.
• Reiki Energy Healing
• Grief Recovery Method

Connect with Lindsay:

• Online Store 
• Instagram
•  

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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.

If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].

Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):

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Victoria Volk 0:00
Welcome to grieving voices. Today I’m introducing Lindsay Joy Taylor on the podcast. And she is the grief advocate and owner of the joyful jewelry box. Thank you so much for being here.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 0:17
Thank you for having me, Victoria, I appreciate it.

Victoria Volk 0:20
I’ve been following Lindsay for a while on Instagram and in the grief community, and I’ve just really enjoyed kind of getting to know you from afar through your Instagram, and I think it’s just a really a grief community would you agree is it’s it’s a different, it’s a different environment. It’s so supportive. And you agree,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 0:47
I definitely agree. And what’s been really incredible, is that, and you’ll probably hear throughout my interview, but I didn’t necessarily start my work in the green space. But now I’m going on six and a half years, and, and in the beginning, it was sparse. You know, certainly I think social media and online sharing has grown a lot in the last few years. But it was really sparse in the beginning. And now it’s been incredible to see all of the greatest accounts and advocacy and experts that have come out of this, it’s just, I don’t know that I expected that or that I anticipated that. And I really, you hit it on my head in the sense that it’s automatically a different community. It’s automatically sort of this, like, deep sensitivity and connection. And, you know, I’m not somebody who loves smallpox so much. And it’s really kind of neat to just jump right in, and we can just go to those places that really, you know, speak to our lives. So I definitely agree it’s, it’s different than the online world in general. But it’s also different than even what it was for me in the beginning, you know, so that’s been really neat to see.

Victoria Volk 1:50
I agree. And a lot of the deep conversations that I’ve had throughout my life have been with people who have gone through deeply, troublesome, challenging times. And I think COVID to actually has helped to highlight grief overall, and really bring the conversation to the forefront. And so thank you for your advocacy. And for what you do. Yeah, and actually, let’s start there, how did the jewel, the joyful jewelry box, come about?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 2:24
You know, it’s really kind of a special story to me, because it’s sort of unfolded very organically. And yet, when I tell the story and look back on it, it’s just sort of feels like this was the way the whole time. So you know, my relationship to Greece is very intimate and lifelong, that my mother was murdered when I was an infant. And so I’ve grown up really having a deep understanding of grief, and then also feeling very outside of it, really not understanding all the ways that it’s impacted my life, because it’s quite literally infused with my life. And so I think that contributed a lot to me and my temperament and who I am and what I believe in general. So I had always wanted to be in the helping services in some way, shape, or form. It’s kind of funny, I was a teenager, I used to joke that I wanted to be the next Dr. Laura, she would I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, but she was a big time radios at the time, and really popular and they’re really controversial. And like that idea of having these hard, honest conversations, not so much that she told everybody how to how to live their life, or to deal with their problems. But I really appreciated that that dialogue, for people to be honest, right. And so in some way, shape or form, I always knew that I wanted to work with people to help them in some way, shape, or form. But I don’t know that I knew what that would look like. So I went to school for communications in psychology. And the short version is I ended up working in mental health, right after school, and I loved it, I did a lot of internal services that helped provide support to the direct services departments. And it just was, it was built upon my strengths, but also really could see how it was giving back to the mental health community and really not only helping me but helping others. And unfortunately, the funding for that position went away. And so I was laid off, you know, it was very much sort of what we’re seeing happening now. There’s just not enough services out there and for funding for the services and you have very dedicated people who want to be able to provide this work and help these people. I’m not always available to do so. So I’m sort of forced into a season of how do I get creative? How do I be flexible and support my family? My husband and I had just bought our first home and we just moved and the dog had surgery and so it was kind of this how do I use it for this season and I had always had a hobby of making jewelry and I’d reconnected with another local jewelry designer and the short version is I opened an Etsy shop. But in the beginning it wasn’t necessarily grief related. It certainly wasn’t Memorial REM remembrance design. It was more of like I said, just how do I navigate this time right now. And once I kind of got my flooding back underneath me and realized I wanted to give back again, I really that that meaningful piece of just working with others, and really that humanitarian side of life, you know, is what gives me a lot of joy and fulfillment. And so I thought, How do I bridge all of these pieces together. And it kind of went back to my shop name in the beginning in the sense that the joyful jewelry boxes based upon my middle name before, before my mom died, obviously, she it was important to her that that being my middle name, to sort of represent the hard season that my family was going through at the time, and then also the deep joy that they felt when I was born. And so just not knowing her and not having a relationship with her, it’s always been important to me to pay homage to her in ways that I could. And so that was where the name came from. And I kind of went back to that route in terms of how do I take this meaningful piece of her life and everything I just told you and, and make it work. And I realized the jewelry was a significant piece of migrating process for my mom growing up without are used to play with her jewelry box all the time. And sift through it like it was a treasure box and just take all my favorite pieces, hide them here. And then I realized is a big comfort to me throughout my whole grief during but I didn’t even necessarily realize it. Right. And so it was so neat to sort of be here and be like,

It just felt very small circle in the way of how do I take all of these pieces of them now help other people infuse joy back into their life? How do I help them honor the loved ones that they miss so much? How do I help them keep their life and their memories alive. So it was one of those things that sort of unfolded over you know, the last five years or so, I don’t really know, I don’t really know how it would have ended up you know, it’s so funny because it didn’t recognize how it was happening at the time. And I think, you know, I think grief can be like that. And a lot of ways to in the beginning, it’s just sort of this horrific, all consuming pain, you really can’t imagine anything outside of it. You can’t imagine any joy, you can’t imagine bringing meaning to the deepest pain you’ve ever felt. And so it sort of feels like this, like a literal metaphor in terms of what the degrees journey can be for a lot of us,

Victoria Volk 7:30
You go through the different phases of life and your grief changes and with those phases to I think to your right, when you really start having kids and yeah,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 7:42
When I think to kind of going back to what I said before, you know, like my middle name, for example, it feels like a big part of my grieving process now. And it was something that I actually really resented for a long time. I didn’t feel like I was enjoying the person, I didn’t feel like I wanted to look on the bright side of things. I didn’t feel like this was my mission to carry out, so to speak, you know, that it was one season of life started to reveal itself to me so much. And yet here I am now still with all the pain and all the loneliness and growth and just all the things that happened over the years. But there’s this really fulfilling component of having that connection with this community of having this touchstone of built a really beautiful place that didn’t exist when I needed it. And that just Yeah, I don’t know, sort of hard to put into words. I’ll chemical process there, so to speak, you know,

Victoria Volk 8:37
It’s a purpose. Yeah, it’s a purpose for the pain. And I can relate to that. I think we often end when we are deep in it. You can’t see the other side, you can’t see what’s possible. You can’t see possibility you don’t don’t look for the open doors, you don’t really see your own potential, either. I think that kind of gets hidden math,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 8:59
Or, do we even want it? You know, I don’t want to speak for all Grievers. Certainly we all have our own process. But in the work that I’ve done and with a lot of the Grievers that I’ve worked with, that desire goes away for a while takes a while for kind of all those pieces that I talked about, I mean, you know, and that’s kind of the biggest piece of my story really, is that, you know, I’m a 37 year old woman, and I mom’s been dead for 36 years, and I still think of her every day, I still struggle every single day and wonder what life would be like with her, what life would be like to have a relationship with her. You know, and so that’s the biggest piece sort of to me in terms of this idea that it’s just always going to be there in some way shape or form and it will change shape, right it will have different seasons. But this idea that you just get over it or when does it get better, you know, just that hasn’t been my experience. And so that’s been the biggest testament for me is really trying to use my perspective of Time, but also, you know, the unique lack of relationship there to sort of articulate that. That doesn’t necessarily matter.

Victoria Volk 10:07
No, it was your mom did you have then someone that kind of stepped in and took that role for you, and was that support for you, as a child,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 10:18
definitely my sister, shortly after my father did remarry. And that wasn’t necessarily a positive relationship. Although I had to be pretty reliant on her. She’s around like a tutor for three or five, logistically speaking, right, I had to rely on her in some ways, but I have, I don’t have a lot of memories of her. And the ones that I do are really actually pretty traumatic, for she left a picture of my sister. So I’m the youngest of three, my brother was nine, my sister was seven, and I was one. So at that point, you know, the years have passed, my sister was about nine, and she really stepped in and became that integral, maternal role for me. Certainly, my father kept us all together and was the head of the family video and design business and was traumatized, quite honestly, and, and wasn’t, you know, wasn’t the primary caretakers. So there was a long, long, long time of just a lot of renegotiating those types of roles. And I don’t really know where it would be without my sister. You know, it’s pretty interesting. We’re, we’re very close. And we’re very independent. And so I don’t want to say that she became my mother, but she became a model for, for me in a lot of those ways. But she also taught me how to take care of myself, too. I think, you know, I think that that was a big delineation from what I see in a lot of other or hear about in other dynamics. There was never an expectation for my father, that now it’s your job to take care of your sister. She just was so selfless in that way to do that for me. So but I find that unique, I’m sort of being wordy in the way that Yes, she did step in for me, but I think she stepped in in ways and showed me how that we could take care of ourselves to, as opposed to here now I’m your mom. Does that make sense?

Victoria Volk 12:04
Well, and that was my experience to just, I was the youngest. I was eight, when my dad passed away. And, you know, within a couple of years, my mom remarried to and actually my sister left, and my brother was, you know, like, 1314. And so he was kind of doing his own thing. And so I kind of raised myself. Yeah. So you know, I think that for a lot of child Grievers, we do learn resiliency in that way, and how to be resourceful, and how to take care of ourselves. I think we’re kind of just, that’s a lifestyle, we don’t choose. But for me, I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t change. Of course, I would absolutely love to know, I would have been like to grow up with my father. But you know, what shapes us? It shapes who we are and how we are as parents, then as adults, too. It’s, you know, do you feel like I’m just curious, do you gravitate towards that? What you learn from that experience? Like, for me personally, like, I want my kids to be independent, I want them to learn how to take care of themselves, too. Because we don’t know what the future holds. And I’ve found that for myself, did you feel that? Have you found that to as a parent?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 13:22
I’m actually not a parent.

Victoria Volk 13:23
And oh, I’m sorry. No, it’s okay. Sorry

Lindsay Joy Taylor 13:27
No no problem. Um, no, I know, when I say families that technically that’s my husband and my dog.

Yeah, well, hey, that’s okay.

Family, there’s a family. But I do also understand it creates a different context. And I’m always like, how can I communicate that without saying, my husband or my daughter. But you know, I’ve been very involved in not helping to raise my nieces and nephews, by any means, have certainly witnessed that journey with my sister very, very, very much. Right. And I think you’re right in terms of there’s wanting them to be able to take care of themselves the way that you were able to, to be able to let go of, for lack of better term, to not have the fear that they wouldn’t be okay, if something would happen, right. And then I think there’s also and I can’t speak for you, I can only speak to what I’ve witnessed, but I think there’s also this line of also, Oh, my gosh, I want to protect you with every part of my being because I know what those things felt like, or I know what those things felt like for me, right? Like, again, we can’t always know for everybody, we’re very different, but you can relate to the depths of pain, that that took place in your life. And I imagine and I hear that it’s always really very a fine line in terms of how do I honor these really deep, critical resilient pieces of myself without willingly giving my child a basket of hell, you know? I that’s not really. I don’t mean that you know, derogatorily I think that when I look at my journey, I understand why anything can happen. My husband and I don’t plan to have kids, but we also very are open to his world decides we’re having children, we are a strong couple, we would be great parents, we will make it work, you know. But I’m still working out a lot of the stuff in my life. I don’t think it would prevent me from being a good parent, but they’re not struggles I want to have while I’m being a parent, you know, the amount of times I’ve heard in my life that I should have chosen to go feel the grief of not having a relationship with my mom is no way laughable. it’s laughable, really, and very much like, I appreciate that that experience is actually very true for a lot of people, let me put it that way. That That is very true for a lot of people. But I don’t believe that that needs to be the goal. That’s not going to be my goal to have children, right, my child, their only burden in life is to be children. Right? Not to be my Savior, not to be my hero not to be my healing tool. And so for me, personally, it’s just something that I’ve taken a lot of time to really dissect. And it’s just the decision I want to be 110% sure about, and I have never gotten there yet. And I think, because of everything I just told you, you know, that that I recognize that deep pain, and that doesn’t mean that I can’t overcome it, and do both. It’s that I, I want to want to do both. It’s a good way to put it.

Victoria Volk 16:28
Well, I didn’t expect the conversation to go this way. And I’m excited. And actually, I know, I’m glad because I think it is a very good point, I made this assumption that you had children just because to me, like you come off as a very nurturing you. And I mean, I just I get that vibe from you. And so, you know, slap me on the hand for making No, not at all. But I think it’s a wonderful point, though, that it’s like, I think we often like there’s so many people that maybe out there who’ve maybe had children to fill a gap to fill a void of something within them. And for me, I didn’t exactly plan to have children, either, it just happened for me, and, but they are like a mirror, they really do hold a mirror to everything that we’ve experienced. And they’ll bring up everything that you need to heal on yourself. Right? Not that they need to heal you, but show you what you need to heal. And entrepreneurship is like that, too, though. It’s, you know, like, you know, building your business, your Etsy store, I’m sure that brought up different it’s like a baby, you know, when you have a business, it’s like a baby and brings up a lot of, you know, you can have self worth issues that come up, you can have just so many things. Would you agree?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 17:54
Yes. And so there’s a few things I just want to say Don’t worry about it at all, I think that that’s actually not something that I communicate very clearly to my community, or not clearly, let me put it this way, I’ve wondered, I wonder if that’s a dialogue I should have. And, you know, I’ve often erred on you know, I have a lot of lost mothers in my community and, and I just don’t ever, it’s just not the focus of my work, per se. See how there’s places where I’m minimizing my story for the sake of other people, right. And so ultimately, I just don’t want you. But I also want to say to that, like nothing, and what I said was intended to be a criticism of the individuals and maybe that that was their goal. Right? I just know that that’s not right, for me, personally, and that’s another sort of big piece of my testimony in terms of like, honor what you know, to be true for your grieving process, right? Yeah, the most well intentioned people who are speaking from the depth of their experience of pain and so I just really wanted to clarify that didn’t mean that as a judgment and certainly and certainly don’t want to articulate that that’s a negative situation. I just know for me and who I know what I am, that’s not the best way to start a family. piggyback on that about the entrepreneurship piece. Absolutely true, which is funny because I would never have envisioned myself to be an entrepreneur but even more so and you can probably relate to this maybe. But having that that deep emotional connection right to our legacy or to our grades, like takes it to a whole nother level. And was the last week I can’t even keep track within the last couple weeks you know, Instagram has shut down my account and thankfully got restored and everything’s okay but in the beginning, it was very much like okay, so it’s an Instagram account, big deal social media. And yet on the other hand, this is like the legacy of my mom. This is the legacy of the journey that I’ve created. This is tools and resources and community and support. We’re all of these her carts and it just was devastating. Not another word to encapsulate, you know how I felt that day it was really just like it just Pierce’s you want to play, she didn’t think that it would. Because again, Business is business. And certainly it’s important, important, and it’s part of our livelihoods and all those things. But I think we’re also in a time of life where, you know, that hustle culture and trying to really compartmentalize the roles that it should have in our life. And so it was interesting to sort of have that kind of drop on my lap, and sort of figure out like, okay, okay,

Victoria Volk 20:36
what do I need to learn here?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 20:37
What do I need to learn? What does this mean for me? What does this mean about my grief? What does this mean about, you know, all of those things, and nothing really changed. It just was really this. It’s almost like, it becomes this sort of tangible, at least for me, in this particular instance, this tangible source of grief support, for lack of a better term or something. And anyway, yes, it’s very, very, very deep and layered, and you have so many parts of yourself as an entrepreneur in and of itself. But I think we have a unique added emotional quality.

Victoria Volk 21:14
For sure, absolutely. So growing up, I’m curious, too, if, you know, you had mentioned that your sister kind of stepped in and your dad was in the picture, but he had a business and, you know, we, you know, with having a business that takes a lot of your time. Did you receive any counseling or anything as you got older? Or, you know, what have you tried in the past? Or what has worked for you? I think that’s like three or four questions. And sorry,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 21:44
It’s all the same. And so growing up the The short answer is not really my understanding of right after my mom’s homicide, my family had done some trauma therapy sessions, I mean, a handful, I gather, again, I was an infant. So I can’t really articulate the impact that that had, and I don’t even although I’d like to write I’m sure that, you know, it still impacted me in the ways of how my family moved forward, and some things but I don’t have a lot of information about that. And then it was interesting when I was in elementary school, and I still don’t have a lot of information about this either. But I wound up on some of these radar. And I would get pulled out of classes to go do play therapy, I had good grades, I was well behaved. So it wasn’t like a, at least from my understanding that I was that I was struggling. It was, honestly, it feels like a blessing. There are vague memories, but they’re positive memories of being just in this tiny room with this play therapist. And there were some times a couple of other kids. And I don’t know, it just sort of laid the groundwork a little bit in terms of all of this, I think my understanding that there were layers to things or ways to be emotional without, I think it gave me a different understanding of how you could learn about yourself emotionally speaking, right? I think that, you know, back in the 80s, and 90s, it was always just very scary. And this idea that it would be all consuming and you just kind of don’t go there. And so it I don’t know it was a good model for me. And so then fast forward. When I was in college, I decided to start going to the call the counseling center on campus. Like I said, My sister was such a good model for me in that way. And that was something she had done when she was in college and it was a positive experience for her and so in French is following in her footsteps. And that was actually a pivotal experience, but it was really negative. Unfortunately, what I know now of course, after being part of my healthcare system, and after earning my degree and whatnot, it was short term counseling model and I understand the limitations of that now but ultimately, you know, I’m 20 years old, if I had other 20 years old, I walk in there, I sort of explained the very loose situation of, you know, my family history and the reason that I felt like it was time was my I just sort of felt like grief was seeping out of me, right? Like none of my emotional responses. I couldn’t regulate myself nothing matched up with what was really happening. And so that was sort of the catalyst and so as I explained all this to her, she was nice, not even warm or comforting. I don’t even she was very Matter of fact, basically said, you’re dealing with a lot of trauma, we can’t help you with the amount of time that we have here. So here’s the list and good luck. And I was very much like I have the resources to start in all these other places maybe I would have right and I understand now again, but she didn’t even finish the session with me. It’s like okay, well, let’s create some support in the 60 minutes that we have. When can we call some of these people to keep some of these people together? What do we do with these resources don’t work out for you or even Are you lose? Are you suicidal? You know what I mean? Like we didn’t go over any of that. So that was heartbreaking for me, and why knocked out feeling really kind of broken, right? And my whole life like running and achieving and kind of proving that I was this accomplished, capable, resilient person. And then somebody basically said, Nope, not really. And so that put me off for a couple years. And by the grace of God, everything was okay. You know, there’s so many people, but that’s not necessarily the case. And I got another referral through a coworker. And I think I just did explained everything that I just told you. And

I just felt like a trusted situation to finally try again. And that actually was a really positive experience. So I went to that therapist for probably three years. And we did a lot of relational and a Mago work. Really this idea that right, that our romantic partners, we choose them to help them heal these unhealed parts of our childhood self. And that was actually really beneficial. But I don’t know that that was the right place to start is my point in saying all of that, because if you’re dealing with trauma, and you don’t feel safe in relationships, you know what I mean? So, but I didn’t know that the reason I’m articulating all of this is how much I sort of thought I knew in terms of what the resources are, or the avenues to take, or you just go see a therapist, right. And certain things, certainly things have changed a lot in the last 10 or 15 years, tremendously speaking in regards to trauma and whatnot, but she was a safe place. But I still don’t know that that’s where my healing began, if you will, and then fast forward a few more years. And I started working with a trauma informed therapist about six years ago. And I still have lots of challenges that I work on every day. But it’s been pretty incredible to sort of just understand everything that I was dealing with. Now, from a different perspective, I think that I always knew that was tragic, the way that my mom died and when she died, but I don’t think that I realized how traumatized I was, I don’t think I realized these really clear ways in which the aftermath really created even more challenges, even more challenges than already growing up without, you know, my primary caretaker. But more than anything, you know, because again, you can go on and on about all the tips and tricks in this mat. And it won’t always apply to everybody. But the biggest thing for me that really applied and kind of walking through this journey was really looking at everything that I’ve learned or that I was told or that I intuited from the world growing up about grief and loss. And it really just decided to save matters, this doesn’t apply to me, keep trying to force myself into these boxes into these stages and these understandings of what things should be like or look like or feel like and it just was a bunch of junk. Right. And so that was the biggest tool that it gave me was to help me to trust myself, and trust my own feelings and my own opinions about things. And to know that I could honor my grief on my own whether or not people agree with it, or depending on no matter what they think about over or whatnot. And so that’s been the biggest, I think role that it has supported for me is constantly providing that mirror of everything I’ve just said, you know, that we can choose our own way. And doing that has been, I don’t want to say it’s been the most healing, you know, I don’t have an interesting perspective about healing. And I know that my situation is particularly complex, but but it gave me the freedom to sort of understand how I could get there. If that makes sense.

Victoria Volk 28:21
Yeah, and, you know, we’re all wired differently to and we’re going to take in information differently and processes differently, and, and at some points in some stages and phases, we’ll be ready for it. And other times we won’t and I think we also too, tend to, we question ourselves a lot when we feel like we’re kind of crazy, you know, I felt crazy. And you really can’t, how do you tap into your intuition? How do you tap into your heart when you’re stuck in your head. And you know, in grief recovery, we say to you can’t heal the heart with the head. And the only way is to get connected within and to know, really to be led to what you need and, and follow through on that. And like you said, create your own path and it’s gonna look like a roller coaster, it might look like, you know, it’s not going to look the same for everybody else. We don’t come to that place the same way.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 29:23
No, and I like what you said about that body connection right? For me that was that’s been a huge piece, but I don’t know that I believe that we can heal without the body, right? Like if you think about your emotions and your feelings, you experience them physically, right? This Mind Body connection is so interwoven and so intertwined. And yet, for me personally, because my mom died during such a crucial developmental stage for me, and like literally, you cannot survive without other humans. You know what I mean? In a lot of ways. I think that I intuited the level of support that was available, and I don’t think there was very much you know, and so I didn’t act out I just shut down. You know, I’ve asked that I have sleep problems that I cried, did I stop eating? Did I say anything, right? And everybody’s memory is very vague. Because again, time and just grief and trauma and all those things. But I think that I really cut myself off from that piece of knowing that intuitive sort of way to connect with that deep, that deep anguish, right, and it feels or sounds terrific, like, Who wants to go connect with that wants to take the time to create the space to feel that in your body, right, but otherwise, it just lives there. You know. And so that’s been a big piece of being trauma informed when I say trauma informed therapist, certainly not only that, she has an understanding about, you know, what trauma is and how it plays out in our lives and all of those things, but also really how the way to heal trauma is through the body, you can’t do it without it, right. And so she’s really created that face to face for me to be able to feel those horrible sensations that I had to feel alone as a baby, to really give space, that pre verbal experience, right. And I don’t, this is sort of an interesting thing to say, because not everybody deals with their grief by talking about it. I think I deal with life by talking about everything sort of as a result, we I wasn’t even talking about the time, I literally did not have the capacity to communicate what was going on. Right. And so it just I appreciate you really making that point about the body because it’s so easy to think that it’s such a mental process, right? than emotional processes in our head. We’re crazy, where we were stuck, we’re insert whatever the world has told us, it’s a crucial piece that I don’t think very many of us realize, and in a way that as much as I sort of, even as I’m talking to you I’m like, and I don’t even know if I am right, you know, I talk about trauma. And I talk about the body based work that I do, but I don’t know that I’ve ever articulated or, or recognize just how in our roles in the grieving process is with the body, you know, and how often we’re trying to shortchange that.

Victoria Volk 32:02
I think, too, if you’ve had a traumatic experience with your body, like I have I disassociated myself from my body as well. And I didn’t care about my body, I didn’t take care of my body. I didn’t realize the body mind body connection until I actually went through grief recovery. I say this on every episode, because I am so passionate about it. But I did not make that connection to the mind and body until I did that heart work until I really allowed myself to go there. Yeah, and it was life changing. For me, I firmly believe you cannot heal the heart with the head. It’s you know, we just stuck up there some times.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 32:48
You know, I heard another quote the other day that reminds me that a little bit something about can’t feel when you’re talking or something like that. And I’m like, that makes a lot he right, you know, sort of referencing what I said like I talk a million miles a minute I will ever feels right in line with that. No, until I think you made a really good point in the sense of like, there’s this idea that like you won’t be able to come back from it, right? Whereas the idea is that you’re creating this trusting relationship where your body shows, but I can hold this. But we are strong enough to do this, right. But you’re over there in the corner saying, but I can do it with only three legs when the fourth leg is over here. Right? I appreciate you making that point. And I know that we’re still we’re still unraveling what we know and research and all that. But I think that that’s a crucial piece in terms of sort of the next piece of bridging those gaps, too, because I think too, not to take over the whole different conversation really but you know, I read a book recently called before and after last by Lisa Shulman. And it was basically like, what happens to your brain in grief. Right? And I really appreciated the context in there in terms of like, she was talking about the overlap of grief and trauma, right? Not all grief is traumatic, and not all trauma is grief. But ultimately, like when you really put them side by side, the the the number of people that are in both pools, right, and we’re constantly separating them. So I just think that that’s a big piece in terms of moving forward, that can articulate a lot of things. Maybe we weren’t looking at sort of what you were saying you didn’t understand the mind body connection, or you didn’t quite understand that trauma, that trauma, that traumatic piece, right. And so I just think that we have a lot of ability to change the landscape a bit a little bit by joining them together.

Victoria Volk 34:39
Yes, no, I would agree.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 34:41
Pointing out how common there we go. That’s what I was trying to say.

Victoria Volk 34:46
What is one thing that you would like to get across today about your grief?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 34:52
is one big piece I already said you know, certainly that that is lifelong, right? This idea that That I could be a 37 year old woman still grieving for somebody that I don’t know. I think it speaks volumes, right. And again, I think that on one level people look at and say, Well, of course you lost your mom, it was so tragic. It was so dramatic. And yet, I think there’s enough examples out there in the world where people don’t really take that to heart. For me personally, but for individuals like us not playing out right now, just turning on the news, you know, to really just trying to articulate right, there really is no timeline, there is no timeframe, there are no five stages. None of them.

Victoria Volk 35:33
Thank you. Amen.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 35:36
Personally, that if you happen to be someone, and your experience has been that way, praise the Lord, I’m so glad for you. Because it’s just a really confusing, extra added layer of anger and just frustration because you feel so alone, and so misunderstood. And all the things that are out there were most of them up until this point, really just were very unrealistic, you know, but the other piece of that maybe this is an undertone of that. But as much as I work with adults, I don’t work with children, I don’t feel that that’s necessarily my strength. And yet my experience, I feel like, it’s crucial for me to articulate that with children don’t know or don’t remember them. It can still impact them, let me use that word instead, right, but this idea that, that I was so strong, that I got such good grades and just insert all the junk that you know, people think is a replacement for a parent. And I bought into that that was an identity that, you know, really carried me through and I’m wondering, I’m grateful, you know, I needed something to carry me through. And yet, then I grew up and I was like, Well, shit, nobody has even any clue that I’m struggling so much. And I don’t even understand why I’m struggling so much, because I’ve never talked about it. Right? Yes, of course, it was tragic, but only significant, right? And so it was this constant rationalization of my experience against the world. And so it’s important to me to say, just, you know, don’t assume that your child is going to be traumatized, because they go through a hard thing. Absolutely not. Children are so strong and so resilient, but we get to provide the tools and the environment and the resources for them to be able to communicate, or to feel safe, to be honest, if we ask what they’re struggling with, you know, and to not minimize that, and to not give them some childlike answer and adorn until it comes up again. You know, that’s a big piece for me in terms of really just understanding that grief impacts children too. And it’s not the same as adults. And I can’t even necessarily articulate how it will impact your child. But I just want people to be aware of the fact that providing that support is one of the most crucial parts of helping them heal.

Victoria Volk 37:47
And what I’ve learned to like, even through grief recovery, we have the program helping children with Loss Program, yes, bar none, like going to the program has made me a better parent, just to, because if I can’t tell the emotional truth about myself, how can I expect my child to come to me exactly how the emotional truth about themselves? And so it really is just to have this dialogue and conversation. You know, it’s like some I’ve seen arguments of people online where someone takes their child to a funeral. And people are just outraged. Like, why would you do that? Why would you let them see the body in like, well, because just because you’re uncomfortable with having that conversation, you know, and I saw my dad in his casket, no one talked to me about it, there was no conversation, like to piggyback on what you’d said, just because cha children, like, children bounce back, I hear that all the time, oh, they’ll bounce, they’ll bounce back. Those children grow up to be adults, that is never addressed, it will rear its ugly head at some way, some fab absolutely.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 38:57
You know, and certainly, and I’ve seen that in my work, you know, in the ways that, you know, my family is we all grieve very differently. I would say I’m definitely one who carries the most out loud, but they are tolerant of it, and they’re accepting of it. And they don’t tell me to do anything different with that. And I really appreciate and respect that because they didn’t sign up to have, you know, their, their deepest pain to be so public. And but it’s been really incredible to see sort of the, the ways that it’s impacted my family that I didn’t even necessarily expect some of the conversations that I’ve had with my dad, I can just recognize that I’m helping them process this too, right? That doesn’t mean I’m so far along. Hey, I’m right here with you. Right, but it’s been really interesting and helpful. To be able to see that piece come back instead of feeling like Oh, am I crossing the boundaries, I don’t want to violate anybody, you know, and I honor that, but I also need to honor my own experience, and I’m tired of living the secret, you know, and so it’s really trying to honor both of those, but to see the ways that my being public about it or outspoken about it has helped them see things in a different way. Or even if it hasn’t helped me understand them on a deeper level than an unexpected blessing, I guess

Victoria Volk 40:11
And that brings up a good point, too. And that verse, I think, oftentimes we tend to sweep the hard stuff under the rug. And especially where I live the German heritage, you know, people come in said, the people that came and settled here, it was dead of winter. It’s harsh. It’s, I mean, that’s a that’s a special breed of people. You know, they’re real. Yeah. Pretty hard and determined, and you know, and so it’s it is this German, tough exterior culture. And we don’t talk about it, we don’t need that we’re fine. It’s really difficult for people grow up like that, to ask for help to seek out support to look for community of like minded or people that are a little, maybe a little further than they are for guidance or support. Yeah, I just wanted to highlight that point that you had brought up that supports huge,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 41:12
and you know, that it can go both ways. I think it’s sort of an interesting concept, right? Because, and I can’t speak for you, but like as the children, right, it’s the children who are looking to everybody else.

Victoria Volk 41:24
Well, we resort to what we know. And we look to the adults to emulate Well, okay, well, that’s how we deal with grief. Okay, I guess I’m not going to talk about it either. You know, I guess I’m fine. Several myths of grief that we talk about in grief recovery, and one of them is, you know, grieve alone. That’s what I did, you know, stuff, stuff, stuff. And then there are some kids too, like we were talking about the differences, some kids will lash out, some kids will exhibit different behaviors, depending on what’s been emulated for them. Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 41:58
More than anything, I just want to let people know that for me, in my community, what I believe is that you have the right to grieve your own way, right? There is no right or wrong way to grieve. There’s no timeline to it. But what happened wasn’t your fault. The biggest process, or the biggest change for me in my process was giving myself that permission to change what I think, right. And so I really just encourage your audience to really think about when it comes to their primary struggles, right? There’s these little pennants that are the piece that they struggle most with, if you will, sort of what I was just saying, right, I should be over this right by now I should get over this or all of those things, I just encourage you to sort of ask yourself, where those ideas came from. You feel like they’re serving you and your own process. Right? I feel like two things sort of are happening, we’re all really unprepared. We get thrown into this situation, this universal human situation. And we don’t know what to do, because nobody’s talking about it. So we’re already sort of at a deficit, for lack of a better term. I don’t like that term. But we’re unprepared not that you can prepare for it. But we’re unprepared in the way that everything we’ve been told is generally not true. Or there are very strong chances that it won’t look that way for you, right? And so I really want people to have the flexibility to be able to say, Where did I learn this? Who benefits for me hearing this? Does this feel right in my gut does this serve me, and if it does, then you know, do your thing. But if it doesn’t, then I just really, you have the right to grieve your own way to honor your own process to do it differently. And that doesn’t mean that you’re doing it wrong. That doesn’t mean you’re dishonouring anybody that doesn’t mean that you’re betraying anybody, it just really is a matter of making sure that you’re not grieving the way that you were prescribed grief

Victoria Volk 43:57
I like that prescribed. Now, because I think society puts on this prescription, right, yeah, collectively, we all have these beliefs. And there are some universal beliefs. You know, Time heals all wounds we all know that line, you know, so like you said, it’s, yeah, challenge what your own beliefs about what you feel about grief and what you’ve been taught about grief. For sure

Lindsay Joy Taylor 44:07
And just make sure that they’re yours. Right? Just make sure they’re yours. Or not even yours, but the ones that have been passed on to you feel like that they’re serving you right and there’s an answer into this something my serapis asked me all the time to sort of because I often feel like well how do I really know you know, there’s so much as like, you know, I think a lot of what we talked about there’s this sort of disconnect in and of itself, but it’s also can be overwhelming, like you don’t know until you go through it. Right, more about really just recognizing that what works for you what works for other people. It just doesn’t, but you’re also not going fairly good to know that right off the bat, too, right. And so there’s some trial and error there in terms of figuring out what your journey is, and how you can infuse pieces that did speak to you. And my therapist, she will often say, you know, when we’re trying to figure out if something feels good, or expansive, or healthy or productive, we’re fulfilling insert whatever word you want to use for you. It’s more of like, does that feel expansive in your heart, you know, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that sadness is going to fill you up with joy. But again, it’s sort of tapping into those, those sensations in your body, right, the things that are right for you, you’re going to feel expansive, you’re going to feel open, you’re going to feel like oh, I kind of feel like I can breathe right there. I don’t feel relieved, per se, but I feel a shift, right? Whereas the things that are not right for you, you’re instantly going to clench up, you’re going to shut down, you’re going to feel rigid, you’re going to feel resistant, right. And so those can sort of be those intuitive nudges in terms of I don’t really know what I feel or what feels good, or what’s helpful or not. And those are kind of the the sensations that you can follow to get more clarity there.

Victoria Volk 46:05
There’s two points, I just think two things that came to my mind. Well, one, I think, too, it’s having an open mind, like just being open to whatever may come your way that if it piques your interest, there’s a reason. Yeah, you know, if and follow that curiosity of what may be helped, you know, because it could be the thing that unlocks everything that changes your life. That’s what happened for me. But the other thing too, is I coming from an energy standpoint as a Reiki Master and I was not even remotely like, I’d never even experienced Reiki before I became certified in it. Oh, really? Yeah, I just I was led to it. I had, I was curious about it. And it wasn’t until I like did the inner work. But there’s one thing that people could do stand up straight and tall and you put your hands on your chest and you can said you can do the sitting too I suppose but you close your eyes and you ask yourself the question whatever it is that you’re trying to discern, you know, like, should I go to this workshop? Is this workshop good for me? or you know whatever it is? Yeah, and if you feel yourself kind of leaning forward like a good that’s like a good thing but if you find yourself going back like leaning back like your body just as being pulled backwards that’s like a contracting that’s that just kind of right is like because our bodies always speak to us always. And I that’s the thing too like that’s I’ve really tapped into the body energy aspect of my own healing and have learned so much about that mind body connection because we are energy we are made up of energy our feelings emotions, our thoughts have energy behind them and our body knows our body knows so just do that you know try that our

Lindsay Joy Taylor 48:17
our body’s energy too right level painter oh wow that’s

Victoria Volk 48:22
the cellular level like every we are made up of cells and cells our energy learning so much.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 48:31
Yeah, definitely. I love seeing your face light up with the Reiki I’ve had it done and I actually have an invitation to go be certified in that recently and I decided not to only because I still am feeling like I for me Does that make sense? In terms of like I’ve noticed I’m always in this isn’t a bad thing by any means. But I always go like serve others in ways of like serving myself and I was like but that’s actually an area where I just want to be served. Does that make sense?

Victoria Volk 49:04
Oh, Reiki serves and that’s it. Oh my gosh. It is a gift that will keep on giving to yourself

Lindsay Joy Taylor 49:13
Just moving here because I feel this isn’t even necessarily anything I talked about per se but you know attachment trauma I have attachment trauma obviously from losing my mom at such a pivotal time and not having really safe and consistent caretaking after that and so I get really nervous that like when I how do I do this? I’m scared that I won’t be able to hold my boundaries. And that was a big piece of what I was doing counseling work. I felt like I like had the whole world was on my shoulders. And so that was that was sort of where I was able to say well I’m and I’m much more of an advocate as opposed to like therapists and you know, that boundary really serves me in terms of what My responsibility and kind of all that, but there’s certainly a fear with the Reiki that I’m nervous that like all something on will never get any sense.

Victoria Volk 50:10
Yeah, and you know what if you just do Reiki level one and two, you can give Reiki to yourself. Just think of it, it’s for yourself and that’s why I did it. That is why I did was for myself didn’t know you could do that to yourself and I went on to the next level, what’s up?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 50:30
I didn’t know that you could do Reiki on yourself, I guess I how does that work?

Victoria Volk 50:36
We will have to have another conversation.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 50:40
Right? I’m just referring to the experiences I’ve had.

Victoria Volk 50:44
No, it’s not just for really, I went to get certified for me. And but it’s really just, it’s really, I’ve gotten so much back from it, and helping other people too with rate, you know, giving, giving Reiki and things like that. But I just it’s opened up like I went for Reiki Master and like in a few weeks, I’m doing my Corona. It’s like the next level up. And that’s the next level after that is licensed and there’s only like 30 licensed as UI Reiki masters.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 51:16
Congratulations. That’s really exciting.

Victoria Volk 51:19
It is exciting. So I’m excited for that. But yeah, it’s, um, we’ll just have to have another conversation about that. But we will do if the universe keeps hitting you on the head and showing up for you. Reiki, reiki, reiki, that’s what was happening for me. Like I kept hearing about it. I’ve seen it. And I had never experienced it, like I said, and I just thought, What is this Reiki business? You know? And so

Lindsay Joy Taylor 51:45
yeah, pretty magical. I mean, the experience that I have had was very magical. But like I said, I felt very, like, you know, you were the guide. I was just the receptacle or something. And I’m glad we got onto this little bit.

Victoria Volk 51:59
Yeah, well, like energy, grief. It’s all connected. all connected. So where can people find you? If they want to connect with you?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 52:10
Absolutely. So my shop is the joyfuljewelry box.com and you can connect with me there. Normally I start with my social media. But since that got a little weird lately, you can always find me in my shop on Instagram, I am at the joyful jewelry box. And or if you just want to email me if there’s any questions you had or this conversation spoke to you, you can always email me at the [email protected]

Victoria Volk 52:37
Thank you so much for being here. This was such a different conversation, in a good way. I’m glad it went where it went, I think the message that you needed to get across I, I felt it, I hope my audience does as well.

Lindsay Joy Taylor 52:53
Thank you, Victoria, I appreciate you reaching out and just anybody in your audience, you’re welcome to come to my community and not as a replacement by any means. It’s not what I meant, but I just love meeting anybody who finds me through other grief communities. It’s just really cool to see how we can all learn each other and really, you know, create the connections from our stories, you know, like I said, from being able to really just start from a place of knowing who people are, or at least some of the most important parts of who we are. So I really love when people come over and share their story with me or share why my story spoke to them or whatnot. So love to meet anybody.

Victoria Volk 53:30
Well, I think too, it’s part of the mission of mine reason for starting this podcast was to talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather. Exactly. And so whether it’s my account your account, another grieving account, grief account, it doesn’t matter. It’s we’re talking about it. And that’s that’s the goal is to normalize it, right?

Lindsay Joy Taylor 53:50
Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you for what you’re doing to normalize it and I was poking around on your website today and it’s just it’s cool to see everything that you’re doing right I love that you’re providing one on one support, I love that you’re providing online support, I just it was neat to see all the different offerings that you have and I think that people can get scared of course, freaking scary woman but I think that they get scared that you know, there are only so many options and it’s just not going to work for them and ultimately the point is is just like you said, keep your mind open. This is such a unique and nuanced process like nothing can ever really be captured in one of these conversations or in one Instagram posts etc. And so I just encourage you to seek out those safe communities to be able to have these conversations. I think you and I both sort of articulated that. When things are ready it reveals itself to us when we are ready or not you know

Victoria Volk 54:51
and universal hit you on the head till you till you open the door. All right,

Lindsay Joy Taylor 54:57
Thank you for all that you’re doing and giving back to this to me The I really appreciate it.

Victoria Volk 55:02
Likewise, come back next week for another interview and thank you Lindsay, for being on and have a great rest of your day everyone. Much love

Ep 12 | Patsy Kenney

Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast | 0 comments

Patsy Kenney: Divorce, Caretaker of Dying Parent, and Closing a Business

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Patsy is my first guest interview on the podcast. She is also the first online, 1-on-1 participant to go through the newly developed online version of The Grief Recovery Method® program. The online, GRM program is a 7-week action-based proven method for helping grievers navigate and process a loss of any kind.

In this episode, Patsy shares her grieving voice around her divorce, being a caregiver to her dying father, and closing a business. And, how resiliency found her during those two years of deep grief.

Patsy also shares her voice about her search for alignment and discovery of the gifts grief brought into her life. Through her story, she shares what was helpful to her as she was knee-deep in the grief experiences and experiencing a lot of change and transition at one time.

We also scratch the surface of how we live is how we die and the resistance grievers, as well as those dying, have around death (or the very thought of it).

Be a fly on the wall of our very deep conversation and, if Patsy’s story resonates with you or, you wish to follow her journey of creation, self-discovery, and alignment, you can find her at the following:
@andcelebrate on Instagram or her website at www.andcelebrate.com

RESOURCES:
One-on-One, Online Grief Recovery Support

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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.

If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].

Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of the unleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced grief recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with the ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather. Let’s get started. So today on the podcast is my first interview. And I am so pleased to have Patsy join me today to share her grieving voice and her grieving story. So thank you so much for being my first Patsy on here. And

Patsy 1:18
I am honored Victoria. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk 1:22
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We kind of were chatting earlier about the different grief scenarios that you’ve experienced in your life. We’re just gonna dive right in.

Patsy 1:35
I love it. Let’s go. So wait.

Victoria Volk 1:39
First of all, tell us when your grieving story first really began for you?

Patsy 1:49
Yeah, well. So I would say the the intensity of the grief I’ve experienced, really has been in the last couple of years. So when I was younger, it’s not. So when I prior to meeting you Victoria, it really I would have only associated the term grief with a loss like the death loss. Probably like in my younger years, I really had sort of this idealistic upbringing. And I did not experience a whole heck of a lot of adversity in an intense way. Like, yes, we all experienced change. And there were a lot of mini moments as I reflect back now that I would now label as grief. Like I was experiencing grief at the time, but I didn’t know it. And my grandfather, my mom, my mom’s dad passed away when I was a junior in high school. And I was very close to him. I had lost my dad’s dad had passed when I was just five years old. And we didn’t spend a lot of time with them on a yearly basis, it was more of like a yearly annual visit, to see all my dad’s family and cousins and that sort of thing. So I didn’t have a very strong relationship with that grant, my paternal grandfather. And I was five so didn’t fully acts like I remember, I remember experiencing my parents grief around that are sort of questioning like, what is this emotion? What does this energy didn’t have the language for it then but this new energy that was sort of present in our home during that loss, and my parents had gone away to, to see him in his final days, really, what’s what I later learned, right, but I didn’t really have that awareness at the time. And so then I would say my first really significant loss was my, the definition of grief, as relating to death was my grandfather who passed when I was a junior in high school. And then now I’m 35 years old. And in the last few years, I’ve experienced just this tremendous flood of loss and change. And really, it started learning about a high school classmate who had passed unexpectedly in his sleep, but 33 years old, from a heart attack, and he was the type of person who just made you feel like he’s known you forever just had an amazing outlook on life, really was creating a life that he loved and living a life that he loved and had this energy about him even back then that made you feel really seen and heard and celebrated. And I admired him and even though I hadn’t seen him in many years, hearing about that loss really struck something in me and so started actually, like, really making me question, you know, if I weren’t to wake up tomorrow, would I be satisfied with the life I’m living? Would I would I, you know, go to the other side or whatever that maybe I’m feeling Like really pleased with how I’ve, I’ve been living a month later, we received no notice that my dad was diagnosed with cancer. And it was a month in waiting that we then learned it was stage four, it was terminal had metastasized to all these other organs. And he was given about a year to live. And so in that, I said, that’s where like death really entered the room, like made its presence known. And I continued that line of self questioning. So death really helped me really reevaluate how I was living. And in that, it was sort of like this, you know, you pull the string of the sweater in the hole. I, that led to a series of conversations with my then husband, that illuminated, you know, some real, we had some real deep, honest conversations about the reality of our marriage, and how we just wanted different things in life. And we weren’t actively creating a life together, we were still sort of, we’re living in the same house, you know, and have had fun together. But there wasn’t a true, like, deep, solid foundation to build a life upon together. And death really invited us to look at that and make some decisions about how we wanted to move forward. And ultimately, we decided to separate so then there was change and loss in that.

And as my dad, health started to decline over that course of the year, I, again, like in my change of moving house and reevaluate, and getting back on my feet and all this that me other, it helped me to reevaluate my business and how that was running. And I it became really clear that I was, I was not setting myself up for this sustainable growth, I was feeling burnt out the sort of vision of the heart of it all wasn’t matching the execution of it, I had sort of backed myself into this corner, and I was like, This isn’t even what I want. So that evolved, and, like I had two businesses and sort of ran for, what would I say, merged the one with the other, add two business partners that I was working with. And that was an amazing transition at the time. And I felt very supported in that. And then flash for my dad ended up passing in June of last year. And, and so there was this whole new, just like, way of being on my own, because at that point, I was no longer living with my ex, like, there was so much motion and movement and change throughout all of that. I just kept putting one foot in front of the other. And then flash forward to this the start of this year, and experiencing this global pandemic that we’re all in and reevaluating. Again, where does you know, how do I want to align my values with my business and my life and what I’m creating, and that second business, we made a decision to sunset. And so like, I don’t know how to say that in a more succinct way. But there’s been a heck of a lot of grief in the last year, a year and a half. And I’ve been doing a lot of unraveling that.

Victoria Volk 8:41
Thank you for sharing all of that. I want to go back first to to actually your first loss as a child. Um, you know, that’s 10 we that’s where we often need to start really when we start processing loss because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so sure, as a child, when you last had that loss as a five year old, I’m just curious and for our listeners as well, because we often don’t make that connection of what we are allowed or not allowed to express around grief. How did your parents seem to view your put your relationship with that grandfather? And did they address how maybe you were possibly grieving?

Patsy 9:36
No, I wouldn’t say that. I don’t think they were really conscious of it. And that’s where there’s sort of this like fogginess for me around that loss. Like I don’t, I don’t really remember processing only being more aware of what their emotions were, and feeling like I must be present for that or not ask any questions or be too inquisitive about it. It was sort of it was shared. I witnessed my dad cry. That was a first for sure. Um, he was not very emotional. He was an emotional guy, but he hit it. You know what I mean? He, he never expressed his emotions openly. And I guess I would describe that now as just sort of like, Can I was confused more than anything. There wasn’t a conversation really even about death, or? I mean, they explained what it is. But I don’t think there was active, continual conversations about it.

Victoria Volk 10:36
I think we can all agree that when there is, like heavy grief within a household within a home, that it creates ripples, right? Oh, we can agree. Oh, right?

Patsy 10:49
1,000%. Yeah.

Victoria Volk 10:50
So yeah, as a witness to grief as a young child. Even just the idea of not having the language around that or be given the language or be totally in clusion? Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. Of what your parents themselves were feeling

Patsy 11:12
We’re going through or explaining, oh, and like, I had no history of my dad’s relationship with his dad either, right? I’m, like I, I only know of him when I see him when I go to visit, like there. If you think about it now to my own brain at that moment in time, there was really no context or, yeah, that inclusion piece would have been so helpful.

Victoria Volk 11:36
I’m curious too like, in the years that followed, maybe 567 years that followed after that, was it a topic that was ever discussed? Like, was there

Patsy 11:46
I honestly don’t remember it being discussed or even an honoring of him, right, okay. Like I feel more of a connection to the honoring. Now, granted, I was older, I was a junior in high school, and my second grandfather passed away. And I was much closer to him, you know, just because we lived next door to him. But there was more of a process around the honoring, I do not remember attending, I guess I didn’t, I didn’t attend my paternal grandfather’s funeral, like I had no, I had, I had no idea of what even sort of ritual can or you know, honoring could have could happen around a death around a loss like that. Until, you know, you hear about it, you watch it on the movie you consume in other ways people around you have deaths or losses and things that you’re exposed to, but hadn’t experienced yourself. Like the first funeral, I think I attended was probably around the same timeframe that I lost my maternal grandfather.

Victoria Volk 12:44
So I’m curious when you look in hindsight, yeah. The contrast between that first loss as a child, young child do where you’re a junior in high school, was there a change? Or was there more of a communication with how you were feeling? Yes, later in life, as opposed to waiting for a child?

Patsy 13:06
Definitely, definitely. Um, and I remember the Minister of our church came over, and we had like a family meeting, it was definitely inclusive. So when they talked about how they were going to present what they were going to do, what kind of the service were they going to have, all of that was the whole family was involved. And she and she really led that meeting. So I grateful to her for that. I don’t think she realizes, till this moment, I probably hadn’t even put it all together. But she, she helped to almost emulate how those conversations can go, right? Because she was leading it. And she asked each individual grandchild, like, what was your What would you like to call out in memory of around your grandfather? What’s a specific memory you want to share? Or, you know, that kind of thing, which was really nice. And I think then, right, the cumulation of that experience, sort of it just it the other first experience feels foggy, because I had a new refreshed experience of loss of my grandfather. And in the honoring because we gathered so frequently as a family. There was more of an honoring around each first of that first year, right? So it was like, his birthday is like our gathering as a family of like, Oh, this is the first time he won’t be here with us for Thanksgiving, or he won’t be here with us for Christmas, or there was more of just like a remembrance and honoring of him. throughout those family gatherings, which I didn’t experience in the lot like in my first loss.

Victoria Volk 14:40
Do you think? I mean, when looking back now to do you think that there was a difference in relationship that may have influenced how one death was handled versus the other?

Patsy 14:54
In some ways, yes. But I Yeah, I do. It wasn’t that we weren’t close with our, you know, my dad’s side of the family, it was just a proximity thing for me like they were in New Jersey, we were in Maine. So it was like less frequent that we were seeing them I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t describe it as like, feeling less loved by them or anything like that we always had just a blast when we were all together. But I think because I was in my brother was really like a brand new baby pretty much when that loss happened. I don’t know if it was because of my age that they just thought, well, like we’re protecting her. But I don’t I feel like that would have been such an awesome learning opportunity to talk about death.

Victoria Volk 15:39
Right. And that’s the that’s kind of why I’m really kind of drilling this point. And I love it the childhood experience because we we learn 75% of how not First, we will process grief and learn about grief and how we’ll deal with it for the rest of our life by before we’re age seven or eight. By the time we’re age eight. Yep. And so those first years are the most influential on us in terms of how we process our feelings, or don’t

Patsy 16:15
So there wasn’ta whole heck of a lot of processing. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I think I thought I kind of felt it felt foreign, it felt it didn’t feel it obviously didn’t feel like safe to inquire about, it felt a little scared because of the unknown of it. It was like they they went away for four or five days came back. And then I remember being like Papa darp passed away. Like, I don’t think I even knew he was sick. Hmm. You know, because our, again, our inter now we talk about our family and other updates all the time. And I have my own relationships with my aunts and uncles, my dad’s siblings, and my cousins and all of that. But like, there was never I don’t remember a conversation about because they were probably talking about it when I went to bed or whatever. Like I don’t remember even over hearing like Papa DARPA’s sick. And this, you know, like there was no, there was no context or heads up, like this is a possibility, you know, or even when they were leaving, I didn’t know why they left.

Victoria Volk 17:24
Which and that’s this isn’t unusual. No. And so this is where this educational piece comes in. For you, parents who are listening, who have a child who has gone through or is going through a grieving experience. This is why it’s so important that we have an awareness around that. Children grieve, too. And it’s just as important to tell the emotional truth about yourself to your child, so that you emulate that example of what it means to share our emotional truth, and getting the conversation going around what that child may be feeling. Because what is not a big deal to us adults, like we the child can be making the biggest deal about something and to us, it’s like what is the big deal? Like, right, you know, and to the child. It’s like, it’s not even usually about the thing we think it’s about No, right? You know, for example, there’s two, there’s a story I heard there was a child whose grandpa father had passed away, but they would plant flowers every year. And every year, they would watch these flowers bloom. And the grandfather passed away. After they had planted flowers, when he passed away before they saw them bloom. And the house was sold. And this child was so upset that he wasn’t going to see their flowers bloom. But they didn’t you know, that nobody made the connection that, you know, what’s the big deal with the flowers? And it was that the grandfather said, we will see these bloom Bloom? Yeah, like it was their shared experience. Yeah, of course, once the Koreans had this awareness about it, and discuss. Right, right, and how can we address this? how can how can we help you? And they realized, well dig up the flowers. Yeah, yeah. Bring them to our ring so you can learn

Patsy 19:29
New home and plant them? Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, that’s beautiful. But it’s true and and then as a child, if you don’t have the language for it, you can see how quickly and easily that gets brushed under the rug doesn’t get addressed. Again, you know, can come up like you said, I love the way you phrase like it’s cumulative. And if you’re not aware of what’s under the surface, you know, that can really impact. I mean,

Victoria Volk 19:55
What we don’t see what we don’t see and what we sweep to the side Yep, within us, right? I want to make a point to and bring up. You talked about alignment and, you know, emotional truth. And how you had this awareness around you weren’t really living in alignment. Yeah, so grief kind of was that door that opened that awareness to you, right? It did, it really did.

Patsy 20:26
Which is fascinating to me, because I had been actively working toward building a life of alignment for years, a good number of years. But, you know, I know, I feel like if I were to put the word death out there, it’s often like, associated with heaviness, right, there’s like, I think society there is a, like a negative connotation about it. And that could just be my own perception, but there’s a feeling around it that it’s sort of this this thing that like, we don’t talk about, and it’s shocking to us when it arrives and it’s like it’s just this dance of strangeness around

Victoria Volk 21:11
We’re immortal. We’re immortal.

Patsy 21:15
And the thing that the only effing guarantee that we have in the human experience is death like that that’s the one guarantee and it is shocking to me that like we forget that instantly like we have to remind ourselves of it minute to minute sort of thing right and but what’s so cool about it is that it is this extreme clarifier like when you take any decision you have to make and put that up against like death like time right this is another thing so that is associated with time How much time do you have I mean, the conversation I could go on too we could have a whole podcast episode about time and waiting like when you are diagnosed with something How much time do you have you know, how is it going to happen when is it going to happen Death is inevitable it’s been it has been you know, stated galvanized ballots, you have only an you know, a finite amount of time left are we going to use your time and so that sort of invitation to evaluate that really clicked everything into place for me and I know I mean, our journeys here are constantly evolving, we’re learning we’re growing right? But that was no doubt a catalyst for all the other change I saw in the last year and a half. And now if I think back I can easily get my body to that place of like, tension that I felt and misalignment that I was living and that just like low level thing that it’s like a feeling it’s intangible it’s just this low level hum I guess it’s not quite right. But I didn’t have enough data to even know what to change until death entered the room and it’s amazing to me how because I’ve had that experience and come through it that continues to be a filter for me when I’m making even small decisions

Really

because I guess for me the alignment factor if I’m living in alignment with with my truth then at the end of the day no matter when I go like I can feel that level of satisfaction I started questioning like yes there’s so much more things I want to do here so much more I want to experience in this lifetime so much more I want to create and just like fully live I think that was another thing like there was this energy within my relationship I would have described it as fine a friend of mine and I were talking about this the other night and I was like what fine isn’t living to me like five minutes Fine fine is monotone fine is going through the motions. It’s not experiencing the highs and lows of life like truly embracing them like sort of what can I learn from them all of those things. I was doing that in my own way but within the context of my marriage within my partnership it was there it fell flat I felt flat and I’m like whatever happens on the other side of whenever we die like that’s a whole nother topic too. But if I get to that place like I want to feel like I really like enjoyed this lifetime that I experienced it

Victoria Volk 24:46
Fine doesn’t equal fun right now, and in grief recovery. What do we say about fine its feelings inside not it’s not expressed. And what my dear listeners Miss Patsy has actually gone through the grief recovery method with me. We’ll get to that. Yeah, we’ll speak to that in a little bit. But I want to also give you the opportunity to share a little bit about how the transition like how did you get from? Okay, well, death came in the room. Oh my gosh, I have all this awareness about how misaligned I feel. Yeah. Like what needs to change in my life. And that transition. Can you speak to that transition a little bit? And how in terms of the role that grief may have played in Yeah, how you process that? How you made it, okay with yourself, like how, you know, because it takes courage. It takes courage to Yeah, open the door, first of all, and not shot it.

Patsy 25:55
Totally the door. It was open. And I yeah, that’s such a great way to continue that analogy. It’s true, I think.

Victoria Volk 26:04
Do you feel like because like, for me, it was like one more loss that like, took me over the edge, like, Oh, my gosh, I’m not okay. Like, it’s been over 30 years, and I’ve had a lot of loss in between but this next loss like this, did it like this? Is it this is the cherry on top? Did you have that experience where it was like, Okay, this is it like?

Patsy 26:25
Well, I think, I think when my friend passed what I learned if my friends passing, that was like the knock on the door, and then when the diagnosis when my dad’s diagnosis came through, that just like bursts the door right open. And then death was standing there in a room for a year. And that’s a whole nother like, just talking about transition. When he when he finally passed, there was a relief. And I think this is another thing that people probably I mean, I struggled with too, because because his decline has helped decline was so slow, and just really, really hard to witness, really hard to witness. Toward the end, I was literally praying for it to be over. Like for him, for us, for everyone who was involved, like, because it was getting to that point of just like, a piece has to come soon. Like this is this is really challenging, you know. And so inside of that, like energy, I was also processing change. And in some ways it was my life had been up ended. And part of that was my choice, right. And I had temporarily moved, it was like I was taking, I was only taking one step forward with each new like phase. So I moved out into my friend’s really tiny bedroom, which is basically an oversized closet, I had enough room for a single bed and like a few of my things. And then I moved apart like I moved my office, which was at my home into a little shared workspace. It felt like the transitions and change just never never stopped for that concentrated period of time. How did I meander and like navigate them? I really allowed myself to feel throughout all of it. I’m not really sure. I think Sorry, it’s taken me a long time to answer this question. But I feel like, as I’m reflecting on this, knowing my dad was gonna pass it, it created this level of important like things that really matter. Like the A brings the things that really matter to the surface, right. And so standing in my truth and having these courageous conversations with my then husband, getting through that alone, I almost like built my strength in that first phase. And so I was like, if I can do that I can do anything, I have to move again, no big deal, I have to change my office space, no big deal. I have to you know, and so it’s almost it’s interesting to that, that as we talk about grief cumulating that like strength was cumulating. For me, my resilience was cumulating. And so then when my dad was declining, and I was I was really his primary caregiver for a number of months. And we had help from hospice and then ultimately toward the end we had another nurse come in to relieve us from nights and my brother was very present and all of that my mom was very present and all of that too. And his his family but because of the way my schedule worked within the I had created my own business I was able to be present frequently for that extended period of time whereas everybody else’s work schedules were, you know, anyway, being in that actually helped Like all the other transitions actually help staying present. And enough, right there wasn’t that weren’t days of frustration or just like completely, like burnout was imminent, I can feel it coming, I knew that there was going to be an end, that that phase was temporary. And I did my best within that phase to find something to be grateful for every day, even if it was a small thing. And to kind of like stay anchored and hope and, and remind myself that there’s, I really believe that like, life is working out for us, not to us if we’re present to it and engaging with it. And so there was there was meant to be healing, I was meant to be that person, I didn’t aspire to be that person, I never dreamt that I would have that rule. Like, it’s not even one I wanted. But I took it on. And it actually was really beautiful. In terms of like, healing my relationship with my dad, and being able to be in a place of being that caregiver and provider that he always took. So, you know, in pride growing up, does that answer your question? Or did I go on a very long tangent?

Victoria Volk 31:16
No, that’s great. It actually brought to light. Another thing that I want to bring attention to, for my readers or listeners, readers, listeners, is that you had this awareness i what i hear you saying is that you had an awareness that you can do hard things. Yeah. You know, I can do hard things. Yeah, this is going to be hard. You made it through it, you can use it. And what does that do for us? that builds our confidence, right?

Patsy 31:49
It does totally, I think right now, yeah, like, little things happen. And that’s interesting to God, we can talk about this for a long time. But like, when you are in that space, right, where you’re, you’re navigating through the hard things, your world becomes really narrow. Like the things I cared about before I truly, I don’t care about now. Like in a lot of ways if I had a false caring for it, because I thought I should care about it. Because somebody somebody else’s view influenced, like my caring for the thing. Now I’m just like, it’s so clear to me, like where I stand, like, where the line is drawn. And so which has been a really awesome power tool now, like, inner power thing, as I’m re you know, rebuilding my life, in which direction I want to go. And I love that you called attention to that because it builds confidence, it builds clarity. And just this this like, inner knowing that no matter what the heck comes down the pipe, which I know that’s life, life is gonna life. I’m just gonna, like there’s gonna be more hard things. That’s no question. But I I’m living, knowing that’s inevitable, but enjoying the ride. Like actively seeking out the joy inside of that to have I think really helped. The density, like, alleviate the density that I was feeling in it, because that that was, like ever present. You know, I like reflect on it back now. And I can I can immediately get that tightness in my stomach. So I don’t think I knew sorry, I just I don’t think I knew that I was resilient. Prior to that.

Victoria Volk 33:45
You found it within yourself. In the process. Yeah, I would agree the same for myself. Yeah, grief is funny like that, huh? We get these we get these unexpected. And I can hear that I can just see the eyes roll. You know, the gifts. I knew. I knew. Like, okay, I can see the eyes rolling, you know, but really, truly I’m telling you this I’m over 30 years, over 30 years. Yeah, I’ve grieved losses and trauma in my life. And to be able to not be one of those people rolling my eyes. Like, it is like I can say now I am on the other side. Alright, grief, like it’s no longer in the driver’s seat of my life. And that’s what I ultimately hear in your message as well as that it’s not in the driver’s seat anymore. That suckers in the back in the trunk locked. Locked in the trunk, but released. Actually, you know, it’s a beautiful way Put it. I would say I’ve seen it in the car. It’s not even in the car.

Patsy 35:04
It is it is released as like it’s changed form. Yes. Right. I feel. I feel like it’s changed form and it’s definitely lost. It’s Um

Victoria Volk 35:16
It’s all in change to you. Yeah. Yeah. There you have it. Yes. And that’s why I’m the unleashed heart. It’s like, I was leashed, you know, yes. leashed to this thing.

Patsy 35:33
Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like living right. So my philosophy on life, is to live on leash. That’s why we have such alignment and like kinship and immediate friendship and resonance with each other, because you can feel free even within constraints. And I think that was sort of my practice to in that space of being the caregiver for my dad was like, how can I access even a moment or a minute of freedom inside this experience, and, and the cool part of that was, you know, there were days, like I said, that I was frustrated that I was praying for it to be a different outcome than it was. And at some point, in that journey, I surrendered, I released the expectation of how long it would take, I surrendered to the like, I accepted, like, accepted that this is the journey, like this is the this is the path I’m on and shifted my energy around that. And there was release and relief in the release of that, and he hadn’t passed yet. So before he passed, there was some sort of shift in my energy around it, too.

Victoria Volk 36:46
Would you say that you changed how you perceived the situation? Like your perception, like you allowed yourself to be open to a new perspective? Totally what was happening? Totally. Yep, I too, like, you know, I was eight when my dad passed away, but he survived like he was he hung on for two years. It’s amazing. And he was a lot of he was a stage for it diagnosis. So too, it’s, it’s, I could actually I want to go on a whole nother episode on that on just like, how we, especially if we have not allowed ourselves to process grief, how that impacts the transition for someone who is dying. Oh, my guy, like,

Patsy 37:33
Right guy. I don’t even think of that. But that’s so true.

Victoria Volk 37:33
Right? like how I read a story just recently, and I’m not going to get too far into this because this is a whole nother This is a whole episode all by itself, that I want to give it justice to, but it really just opened my eyes to, to what I read, it was talking about how, for example, let’s just say I’m in a room because I actually used to do hospice care, home health and hospice. Which isn’t a surprise to me, because I’ve, I have a really long relationship with death in my life. So it was no surprise that I you know, I worked in a nursing home as a certified nursing assistant, I’ve been around death, all my life. So what I didn’t really consider though, was how, as we are grieving, and if we have not allowed ourselves to process what we’re feeling and were shut off emotionally from what is the reality of what is happening, like our loved one is transitioning our loved one is actively dying. And working through that process. If we How do it’s like, I’m just having this thought, like, how does that impact the person who is passing? Like, how does how does our resistance to them pass? Yeah

Yeah, impacting them? Like, is that why they’re hanging on? Yeah, is that’s a great point, you know,

Patsy 39:00
Great, great, great point. And that was a whole other thing too. Resistance to passing. So my dad definitely held that resistance to passing I witnessed his his fear around this the fear, right, the fear around it. And so it was interesting, a very interesting exercise for me and and a test of faith as well. Because yes, it’s bringing up my own stuff, witnessing him reached this point, right of his life, but also witnessing his his journey of acceptance to this is what’s inevitable, right and so there, there was a strong resistance. Now it’s interesting, I wouldn’t say he was resistant in the sense that like he’s gonna suck the rest of the life out of the time. He has here kind of thing like, charge for Word and, quote, live the way I was describing before. But it was like he didn’t want to move, because he was afraid it was gonna happen. And so it was like the opposite end of the spectrum.

Victoria Volk 40:12
And can you imagine the grief then the one who is transitioning is feeling because they cannot emotionally express their fear. They can’t emotionally express what they’re experiencing and feeling. Because the people in the room are so closed off and resistant to what is happening. Like, we don’t think about how our energy that we bring to the room in a situation like that impacts the person who’s actually trying to transition. And I’ve just like, I just had like this total. Yeah, I I’m

Patsy 40:50
So like, full full body goosebumps on that one, for sure.

Victoria Volk 40:54
I’m so digging into this topic more, because I think it’s so important, like when I think about the whole premise of this podcast is to give Grievers the opportunity to share their grieving story, right, their grieving voice. Someone who’s already past obviously can’t, doesn’t have that opportunity. But I feel like there’s a part of me that needs to be a voice for someone who’s transitioning because I’ve seen it so many times. And because families that are and

Patsy 41:22
you’re sorry, Yeah, go ahead.

Victoria Volk 41:25
You know, hearing is one of is the last sense to go. And I just recall, being in rooms, where the family is talking, like they’re not there. That’s like, I can hear you. They can hear you. You know, and so it’s it’s actually bringing to attention. What can I do as a loved one who’s watching my loved one transition? What can I do to mainly hat? Okay.

Patsy 41:57
Yes, I, I was like, seeking those resources in that time. I really was. And I feel like I was conscious of his fear. And so I, I did my best to normalize the process, even though I’d never witnessed it before. And to just sit there and be present with him. And you know, it’s, it’s every relationship is different to right. And, and every death experience is different. And it was it was just this really, as sad and hard. And like, challenging as it was, it was actually it was, it was there were some really beautiful moments too, because I hadn’t spent that much time with him. I mean, maybe ever, in that way, like growing up as a kid, like, he’s present. He’s there, but he was working. And he was, you know, it wasn’t like you’re, you’re sitting with each other for hours at a time. For an inevitable like, for it. Um, we don’t know how long, right? So it was just this really interesting shift. It was deep, like an intimate experience, you know? And in some ways, I feel like I yeah, I was there to reassure him that it would be okay, even though I don’t frickin know, I had faith that it’s gonna be okay. That it would be lighter than what he was experiencing in that moment. You know?

Victoria Volk 43:34
And when you look back too that time, it’s Do you feel like, what a blessing it was that you allowed yourself to have those conversations that you may not have had otherwise? Or? It doesn’t. I mean, when we do that, it helps to bring emotional completion to certain things, you know, they can, they can transition and, you know, go on to the next life I, you know, whatever you believe, but, and that’s another topic in and of itself to

Patsy 44:07
A lot of topics out of this conversation. No, I completely agree. Um, the other thing that eye has stuck with me, and I don’t know if you’d heard this in your time as a hospice care, nurse, or just in your experience of life and death. One of the nurses said to me, and this was really funny and fitting, and it actually this probably was the thing that helped me reach that place of acceptance a little bit. She said, you know, in my experience, the way you’ve lived, your life, is the way you’re gonna die. Or is the way you’ll pass essentially. So your relationship to life is your relationship to death and how you pass and so for those who, you know, were stubborn, resistance to resistant to change, that sort of thing. It’s usually a longer, more stubborn drawn out process. For those who are really like go with the flow open to life open to all of these things. It generally happens more quickly and I just burst out laughing because that was my dad’s personality he was completely resistant to change. He lived a lot of his life, you know, in that space of, right like, I like there was of a general cautiousness about him. He didn’t take a heck of a lot of risks. You know, he was very like comfortable in his small little life. That is not to say don’t say that to diminish it. Right. But there was a level of comfort he did not stray too far out of his lifetime. And so the fact that I mean hospice we chose the hospice he chose the hospice route in January and he didn’t pass until the middle of late June.

Victoria Volk 46:01
That’s fascinating. It is fast. I wholeheartedly agree with that nurse to I can I can just think of certain relationships of people passing and things and and yeah, I would have

Patsy 46:16
an yeah interesting that

Victoria Volk 46:18
I think it’s actually to like I think we live in fear of life itself. Like we’re fearful beings, anyway, like fear is the driver of our DeSoto lanes. And but I think it is because I think fears a driver, because we have not, we have this emotional dis ease within us that we kind of we’ve spoken about this before. But it closes us off to our to living like grief puts a veil of our perception of life. And early eventual, and we can’t see we just can’t we don’t see the world as it is we see it, either. How we want it to be or how it was how it was or how we wish it was we wish it was right grief is the loss of hopes dreams and expectations and anything we wish it would have been different better or more we get so hung up emotionally on on those Zoo experiences that cause those feelings. We do that maybe they fearful Yeah.

Patsy 47:34
So true. And even in that it’s so interesting, you bring that up too. And I think for me, again, it was sort of illuminating and reaffirming to embrace life and and enjoy it and like truly live it in the witnessing of my dad’s passing and being with him. And all that time. And there were moments where he would reflect back on something. And I would have these moments where I was like, you’re still holding on to that, like, so far from my memory, you know, and just I can’t even think of a good example at the moment, but several occasions where I had that awareness where I was like, wow, that has been building and we talked about energy right and I really believe it like if we can feel our feelings and process and utilize the the framework that you have exposed me to which I’m so so grateful for, to work through that to unhinge those hang ups that we have because it gets stuck. Like if I sort of look back in retrospect and sort of what I know of his life and his upbringing and those conditioning and and where that fear got hung up in his life and kind of kept him in place for a long time. No wonder, you know that there was this energetic build up there at that lead to dis ease. You know, say this is fascinating.

Victoria Volk 49:01
This is a perfect transition to bring up then the grief recovery work and the grief recovery method that you had experienced because I feel like for me, I know it connected. All of the dots. So many. So many. So yeah, can you speak to your experience now for the listeners? Patsy went through the seven week grief recovery method online one on one with me. And we recently finished up and so yeah, I couldn’t think of a better guess than someone who’s gone through one have gone through the method with me. So can you speak to your experience?

Patsy 49:49
Oh gosh, yes. And I’m so grateful you’ve asked me to be on because I want the whole world to know about this resource that I known you speak of first. long as I’ve known you, and I’ve been very intrigued by it, and, and then obviously moving through all that I moved through in terms of change and transition in the last couple years, it was it is the perfect tool for continuing to process and re release really, so much residual, emotional. I want to I don’t even have a word for it, you see me using my hands, energy energy in your day. And I shared with you at the beginning that like I knew this would be beneficial, I was open to the process. But I also wasn’t feeling in my day to day life that I was weighed down to the point of not living, right. Like I didn’t feel like I was stuck in grief per se when we started this process. But let me tell you, what this process has done is like taken that really it’s elevated the relief and provided just this new layer of peace, I didn’t even realize I need it. Like I knew I needed it, I knew it was gonna be beneficial, but I didn’t recognize like really truly how beneficial it would be. And part of the process is yes, acknowledging death, but really reorienting our definition of grief itself, which is loss and change right of expectations, you just went through it so beautifully. And it helped me see just how much change I’ve gone through in my lifetime not just concentrated to the last few years, but really helped me provide a perspective and reach a new sense of compassion within myself for all that I enjoyed and was never labeling as grief. And so that was amazing because it was like, Oh, this residual energy as at has been taking up space and excited me all this time and I didn’t even really realize it and I’m somebody who has been actively seeking and putting myself in the way of self development work for a long time now like over a decade probably being active in that space of awareness and unpacking and and unbecoming as our mutual friend talks about. And so I found this so beneficial not only for to kind of unpack the last couple of years, specific relationships and knowing that now this framework can be used forevermore, that is like excited me beyond measure. And the work that I didn’t expect actually, well I had a little bit of an inkling because we’ve you know, we’re friends, we’ve been talking about it, but the work around grief within relationships that are still present today. So with the living relationships with the living, that was a game changer has been a game changer. And I think prior to meeting you, I would have guessed that the work would have been done around relationships with people who have passed

Victoria Volk 53:12
Well, and we often don’t see what we’re feeling with real in terms of our and when we think about our relationships with the living we often don’t think about what we’re experiencing as as great as that right? But again, the definition of grief recovery Institute defines grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations and anything we wish would have been different better or more or would be different better or more. And so that’s where like with the living when you have this like Aha, like okay, well they’re never going to change sometimes especially with family we can’t choose who our family is. But it is going through this process and doing this work. I know for me, I was able to then look at that relationship with a new perspective. Totally compassion

Patsy 54:08
Compassion such a big one.

Victoria Volk 54:10
Yeah, take one instead of being filled with anger or resentment. It’s it’s not condoning No, not like dismissing what has been done to hurt you or anything like that. It is what this did for me and I you can speak to it for yourself as well after I share but it Ah that’s why is why that person does this. That’s why because we when we look back on the relationship and how we grew up, how we grew up is how our parents grew up grew up. Because this cycle which is why let’s talk about grief, like we talk about the weather let’s kind of address the elephant in the room. Yeah in our in our hearts in our His in our homes like this is our pandemic. I say yes, yes. demak? Yes, let’s, let’s address this thing. So that the cycle stops, so that we don’t continue to teach and be ample of what it is. What is harming us in the law?

Patsy 55:24
Totally, totally. It. I mean, I’m not a parent. Yet God willing, someday, if that works out for me, I feel like every parent or new coming parents should go through this work truly like it is it is life changing. And it will change the relationships with the living you have today. Because as we talked about reaching that new perspective, or that new level of something shifted, and an energetic shift happened, when I was coming to accept my dad’s death and his, his path to death, right, the way he passed and all that. When you reach a level of acceptance, for another person who’s living, it immediately changes the dynamic within the relationship, and they don’t even know how or why it changed. That’s the beauty of this work, too. You’re not forced to face someone unwillingly, who may not accept what you have to say, this is an internal process and such a gift to be able to sit and feel witnessed and heard and seen from a loving individual yourself. In this case, who I love so much. You call it a heart with ears. Yeah, right? finding someone who has a heart with yours. So to bear witness to your story, to what you’re uncovering to your emotion to all of that, in a way that feels very safe. And love, yeah, loving. That’s the key word that keeps coming where and what’s really amazing to me, too. And obviously, we technology is so incredible that we could do this and be in different states, but still feel that presence of acceptance and reassurance that like, you know, your feelings are valid. And both of both, like, you know, polarities exist in the same moment, regardless of circumstances, or person or experience, right, like we can, we can honor and hold space for the way we were feeling. But also see how someone else’s perspective would create a feeling within them and acknowledge that too. And so there’s so much healing in that. And the magical part is you don’t even have to have those conversations with the person. You’re processing your grief around amazing. It’s so incredible. It’s so incredible. So thank you for exposing me to this. I just feel it’s so powerful. And seven weeks is nothing in the realm of thing

Victoria Volk 58:07
Blew just flies, it flies, right.

Patsy 58:10
That was crazy. I look back and I’m like what I feel like we just got started. So yeah, I feel I feel like an inner peace as a result of the work.

Victoria Volk 58:20
And you have the tools in your backpack, right in your back pocket for the rest of my life now, right? Exactly the knowledge right to bring to other people to bring to other relationships to create ripples in your life. Right? That’s exactly what this does this work creates ripples. When we do the work on ourselves. It creates ripples.

Patsy 58:45
It really does. Because that whole idea of resistance, right? Like, if you’re resistant, resisting and engage, you know, like, say for example, like okay, I’m going to see my mom this weekend. And then there’s resistance around that because you’re already anticipating like how this is going to go, right?

Victoria Volk 59:04
Yeah

Patsy 59:05
You create more aches like they’re there. You just create more resistance like nothing is running smoothly. You’re like this is you know, just talking off the cuff. But anybody can relate to that where Yep, you create a story, the stories read a story, the story is playing out it’s already written you can already see it going and sure enough, there you are having the argument in the kitchen again, whatever. If you show up to that weekend, just accepting and like knowing like, Okay, this is how it is like I’ve laughed more and I don’t know if anybody’s ever gonna see the backdrop but I’m here in Maine, where my family is this week, I just moved into a tiny cabin. I had been living in my mom and grandmother’s home for the last week and a half and it’s really interesting to witness bear in their relationship, status, shareholders and the resistance they both have but ultimately really want the same thing you know, So I brought a new level of acceptance to the situation, circumstance, you know, the circumstance and just the dynamic, knowing what I was walking into. I was just like, Alright, here we go, I have left more this week than I have felt frustrated.

Victoria Volk 1:00:14
And what do you think that does for creating connection?

Patsy 1:00:19
But the thing that everybody wants exactly? spontaneous

Victoria Volk 1:00:23
Yeah, you know, how can we connect with other people, when we got these residual stories already playing out in our minds of what’s going to happen, how it’s going to happen? What’s going to be said, and we’re just going to leave our spaces and be annoyed with each other in irritated? And where’s the connection, then?

Patsy 1:00:39
There isn’t there. And that’s the beauty in it. You know, that is the beauty of it. So powerful.

Victoria Volk 1:00:49
So I want to we, I think we’re like, this amazing conversation could go on for hours, I’m sure. But I do want to get to one question, what is the best piece of advice you ever received, when you were deep in your grief?

Patsy 1:01:13
To feel it, and to just remember that it’s temporary, like it’s, I almost started to embody it like, okay, a wave would wash over me, and I would allow it to come up and through me, right, like, I didn’t resist, if I, if I if something struck me and brought me to tears, I like allowed myself to try it out. If something struck me and brought me to laughter, I would rate I would sort of like lean into it, knowing that it was sort of temporary, and it felt like I could go with the flow of the way it was actually I became the wave a little bit, as opposed to like, swimming against it, resisting it. That helped a lot. And also, we’ve talked about this a lot, because you are a heart with ears, this is the work that you do. If you have someone in your life that can be that for you, like you recognize that they have the capacity to hold space for you in that way, have that vulnerable conversation to ask them to be that in moments when you need it. Because sometimes you just need to be you just need a heart with your eyes, you just need to shout it out or cry it out, or have somebody sit with you in that pain. And that’s not a job for everybody. And there’s also I think a certain level of, well, there’s certainly a level of deep vulnerability that comes with sharing a space like that with someone. So the importance of safety comes to mind, you know, like feeling like you can do that without being judged, right?

Victoria Volk 1:02:45
Which is the whole premise of grief recovery work. This method is a structured safe environment

Patsy 1:02:53
Incredible. Yeah, incredible.

Victoria Volk 1:02:56
And what do you think is a characteristic of someone who has, you know, if someone’s sitting here listening to this, they’re driving down the road? And they’re like, thinking in their mind? Well, who could who was in my life? That would? would be that for me? Or could be that for me? What do you think is a characteristic of that person? I have something in mind, but I’m curious what your answer is.

Patsy 1:03:18
I can’t wait to hear yours. First thing that comes to mind is that person, a person who is is championing you. Like for me, my friend Deb comes to mind and it’s like, she will always fight for my most evolved self. So like in moments of doubt, so we’re not talking necessarily about the pain of loss, but we’re talking about Okay, making a decision or something and I’m doubting myself or I’m starting to, like lean toward, lean into, like programming I’ve received over time, there’s this intimate level of like, she sees me in my, she sees the truth underneath, whatever I may be presenting to her. And so she she’s going to hold me to that truth. She’s not going to just accept what I’m saying for face value, or tell me what I want to hear necessarily. Right? Like to keep me safe or it’s comfortable.

Victoria Volk 1:04:17
So it’s the person that calls you on your bias.

Patsy 1:04:20
Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Um,

Victoria Volk 1:04:25
Also too I think we had talked earlier before but the one thing too i thought was that I picked up on that you said that I think is an important characteristic and this is your so it’s not mine, but it’s yours, but it’s something I want to bring to attention for our listeners is that it’s someone who asks you how can I be there for you? How do I like what does it look like for me to be there for like, do you need just need me to sit here and listen, do you need me to do you want my InSite like asks you, like they asked you what you need. And I think that was a very important characteristic that you brought to light on, on a relationship that you have in your life of someone who would be a good heart with yours for you.

Patsy 1:05:15
Absolutely. And there’s a level of self awareness that they have right? within themselves, so

Victoria Volk 1:05:21
Awhoo, that’s good, too. Like, they’ve maybe done some personal development work themselves. And, you know, like you said, sense of awareness.

Patsy 1:05:31
Sense of awareness, becauseit’s like, you know, if I, if I call, and I think of this in reverse to, like, how have I been able to be that person for others in my life, but if the person is you, though, however, however, way the exchange unfolds, if I’m the one calling you, and I’m in tears, right? Sometimes I don’t even know what I need. So that’s one thing, but to have like, to you as the heart with yours, to have the awareness that those tears aren’t about you. Right? Or like, I, sometimes I find myself in this dance, because so often, we do share experiences, all of our, our all of our experiences are individual, but there’s a commonality or resonance in some of the life experiences that we have, right? As humans, so there can be a tendency within myself to want to share the experience I’ve had that may be similar, right? to yours. But in these I think specifically around processing grief, it’s recognizing, again, what what’s most helpful and asking that question, as opposed to projecting on to that person, like, Oh, I know exactly how you feel. Yes. You know, what I mean,

Victoria Volk 1:06:49
Which is what we tend to do in grief is we tend to compare losses and yeah, and try to create a connection, right? Where you may not feel a connection in that area of life, you know, right. Right. Right. So good, such a good conversation. Is there anything else that well, first of all, you are you have talked about your business, business transition? If someone is interested in reaching out to you based on something you shared, or can feel a connection to you in some way listening and hearing your grieving voice? Where can they find you a Patsy?

Patsy 1:07:35
Oh, good question. Um, I am rebuilding a business called and celebrate and I’m on Instagram over there @andcelebrate the word and spelled out, And the celebrate. And my website is coming soon. There’s a it’s exciting time because it’s, it’s in creation right now. Much of what I will be talking about through that platform really has a lot of key themes to what we talked about today. My vision is to create a platform that celebrates the human experience and all its messy, glorious, triumphant, not so shun sunshiny magical moments, you know, and to be sharing human human stories and expression of what it’s like to live. And so you can find me over there. And then my email address is [email protected]

Victoria Volk 1:08:36
Wonderful. I absolutely cannot wait to see and celebrate, make its re nude debut. Thank you amazing just like you inside out some, because I have no doubt it is a direct expression of who you are. Beautiful inside and out. So thank you for being a friend. Thank you.

Patsy 1:09:00
Oh Thank you.

Victoria Volk 1:09:01
Thank you for being my first guest.

Patsy 1:09:05
I’m so honored. Thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk 1:09:08
Thank you for trusting in me to walk you through the grief recovery and to be there for you in that way and for sharing all with me that you have. Thank you for sharing your grieving voice with my listeners today. So thank you. Yes, you’re welcome. And thank you for listening. We’ll be back next week with another interview.

Patsy 1:09:35
Incredible, I can’t wait to continue listening to the grieving voices as you host here on this platform.

Victoria Volk 1:09:41
Thank you so much, Patsy. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting Know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend

Transcribed by https://otter.ai