Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
With over a decade of experience collecting stories globally, this week’s guest and author, Annie Sklaver Orenstein, has been featured on platforms such as NBC Nightly News and Politico. Her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief, is an empathetic resource for surviving siblings—a group often overlooked in mourning.
Annie shares her insights about sibling relationships being some of the longest-lasting bonds in life. This perspective offers new dimensions to understanding grief, especially for those who haven’t experienced sibling loss themselves. She emphasizes that siblings spend more time together during childhood than with their parents—highlighting how integral these relationships are.
Annie shares her personal story of losing her brother Ben, who was killed in Afghanistan after enlisting pre-9/11 with aspirations to serve politically and make impactful changes. The raw recounting of receiving the devastating news underscores the surreal nature of loss and its immediate emotional upheaval.
Key Takeaways:
- Sibling Relationships: Often our longest-lasting bonds, crucial yet frequently neglected in grief discussions.
- Suppressing Emotions: Surviving siblings might downplay their grief to protect grieving parents.
- Anger & Coping: Allowing oneself to feel intense emotions like anger can be vital for healing.
- Cultural Misunderstandings: Children aren’t necessarily emotionally equipped despite exposure; they need support tailored to their developmental stage.
- Grief’s Unique Forms: Each person’s process is distinct; societal stages don’t capture every individual experience.
Annie highlights that while society often overlooks sibling mourners, acknowledging their unique grief journey is essential. Her advocacy through writing serves as a reminder that all forms of grief deserve recognition and respect.
Ultimately, this episode sheds light on navigating complex emotions following a sibling’s death while stressing self-compassion and honest emotional expression as pillars for coping with such irreplaceable losses.
RESOURCES:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Understanding Sibling Grief with Annie Sklar Orenstein
Introduction
Grieving the loss of a sibling is an often overlooked but profoundly impactful experience. In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” we are joined by author and qualitative researcher Annie Sklar Orenstein, who delves into the complexities of sibling grief through her book, Always a Sibling: The Forgotten Mourners Guide to Grief. With over a decade of expertise in storytelling and oral history, Annie sheds light on why siblings deserve more recognition in the grieving process.
The Unique Bond Between Siblings
Annie points out that sibling relationships often last longer than any other familial bond. From childhood to adulthood, siblings share countless experiences that shape their identities. This deep connection makes losing a sibling uniquely painful. For instance, she highlights how children spend more time with their siblings than parents or fathers—a statistic supported by research.
Annie’s own children exemplify this bond; they share a room and know each other’s quirks better than anyone else in the family. This intimate relationship underscores why surviving siblings feel such an intense void when one passes away.
Personal Story: Loss of Her Brother Ben
The discussion naturally shifts to Annie’s personal experience—losing her brother Ben, who died while serving in Afghanistan due to an unexpected suicide bombing. Through recounting these events, she paints a vivid picture of sudden loss and its immediate impact on loved ones.
Ben’s death brought about overwhelming emotions for Annie and her family. She describes transitioning from everyday activities like babysitting her nephew to facing unimaginable grief together as news spread quickly among them.
Anger and Emotional Expression
One particularly resonant aspect was Annie’s struggle with anger—a new emotion for someone not typically prone to it—and how unfiltered emotional expression helped cope initially before time gradually eased some pain elements. She emphasizes allowing oneself space for raw feelings rather than suppressing them entirely can be crucial during mourning periods involving significant losses such as those stemming from close-knit relationships like between brothers/sisters alike!
Societal Oversight & Cultural Contexts
A noteworthy point discussed involves societal oversight regarding mourning practices where people often focus predominantly upon parents/partners whilst neglecting equally important roles played within families – namely surviving siblings themselves! This lack thereof awareness leads many feeling isolated/unacknowledged amidst collective sorrows shared amongst kinfolk collectively too…
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for joining me on this episode of grieving voices. Today, I’m excited to have Author Annie Slaver Orenstein. She is a qualitative researcher, oral historian and storyteller who has spent over a decade. Collecting stories from people around the world. Her work has been featured on NBC Daily News, Comedy Central, Hotbig Tim Post, political, time, and motherly. In always a sibling, the forgotten, mourners, guide to grief, Annie uses her own story and those of others to create the empathic, thoughtful, practical resource that surviving siblings so desperately need. And I did read it, and thank you so much. For sharing your work with the world. And what was eye opening for me even just early on in the first few chat couple chapters, I was like, I never really thought about how our relationship with our sibling is the longest relationship we have. Never ever looked at it like that. So thank you for that awareness that you brought to me. Amongst many other things, according to my notes. But I really enjoyed the book and I really do feel like it’s a wonderful asset for people who have lost a sibling. I personally have not lost a sibling, but I tell you just reading the book, I thought about my sister and my brother a lot, obviously, my siblings. But I’m very tight with my sister. She’s nine years older than me. And, you know, it was like my second mom and has, you know, kind of been the motherly figure in my life for much of my life. So Yeah, the bond. Right? The the sibling bond. They know your childhood, like, nobody else. That’s very true.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: They do and they you know, one of the things that I thought was so interested. There there are a lot of stats that I learned and that I heard that really stuck with me. And one of I guess, two, that really resonated with me and I think really like encapsulate this is that children siblings spend more time together in childhood than they do with their parents. And that more people, I believe this is a US debt, but more people grow up in a household with siblings than with fathers. And I look at my own kids, they’re six and nine. They absolutely spend more time together than with me. You know? And after school, they’re with us, or they’re in upper school, but they’re together. They share a room. And after I leave at night, they don’t fall right to sleep. I wish they fall right to sleep, you know, but there’s chattering and there’s stuff going on and they absolutely, you know, no things about each other that I don’t know. There will be times where, you know, my daughter tells me something, and I’m surprised to hear it, and my son is like, I’ve known that for weeks. And it’s it’s true. You know, it just it it’s how families function. It’s not like a judgment. It’s just how it’s how families function. It’s how things work. And so regardless of, you know, an adulthood whether or not you have a good relationship or a bad relationship or, you know, as most are somewhere in the middle, that time together and that, you know, kind of pressure cooker relationship, it it impacts you. It makes you who you are in many many ways.
Victoria Volk: Yes. And that was, like, I had so many ahas when I was as I was reading and and And today, we’re we’re talking about Ben, and that’s what your book is about is the loss of your brother. And the one question I had early on in the book is I’m a veteran. And I was in the National Guard. Your brother was in the reserves. Mhmm. And one of the questions I had early on in my notes was, what made him enlist in the first loop?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s a great question. And I asked him that no shortage of time. He so there were a few things. One is that he had some political aspirations. He wasn’t, like, necessarily sure if he would run for office, but maybe he would work for a politician or something like that. And he had a very strong kind of drive for service, and he felt like if he was going to do that, he should have a military background. And that having a military title would help him. He studied international affairs and diplomacy at at Fletcher, and he worked for the CDC and for FEMA. And he really felt like you know, having that having that credential would help him. It was when he enlisted, it was two thousand. So this was pre-nine eleven. They paid for him to go to grad school, know, they paid they paid for Fletcher, and and he got the the officer title. And then, you know, the second piece of it is that he had this idea that is I mean, you tell me, but logical ish to me that NGO, there are places that the Army can can go and can work and can help that aren’t even accessible to NGOs. And the army has these incredible resources and huge amounts of money, and he felt like if he was on the inside, he could use that to go into these places that really needed help and he could help them. And so on the one hand, it was kind of a strategic move. And on the other hand, it was like, and while I’m here, I actually think I can make change from the inside and do all of this good work. And that was, you know, ultimately what he was a civil affairs officer, and that was ultimately, you know, you know, what what he was working towards was a lot of infrastructure projects. And he did on his first deployment in Africa, they were bringing clean water and building wells, and he ended up forming a nonprofit when he got home to continue that work. So it was it was really a a combination of things. But I will tell you that when, you know, on nine eleven and when those towers went down, it that was when I started to be terrified. And I thought, like, why did you just do this? You know, he had finished boot camp in so I guess it was two thousand one. He had finished boot camp in August. And then the twin towers went down. And it was very quickly. We were like, oh, this is not this is not gonna be what you thought it was.
Victoria Volk: I want you to mention the nonprofit he started because I I’m kinda wondering just even reading the book. You alluded to that it’s still going. But what happened was because it was called it’s called clear water initiative.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Clearwater initiative. It was absorbed eventually. After a few my parents ran it for a few years. And it was then absorbed by another clean water NGL or absorbed I I don’t know what the right word is. Like, it’s not like it was bought, but it was like
Victoria Volk: absolved? Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So they’re still, you know, continuing the work, but it’s not run by our family anymore, it’s international lifeline fund, I believe, is what it’s what the larger organization is called, that has since kind of absorbed it and is running the project.
Victoria Volk: No, we haven’t mentioned when he actually passed and how long it’s been since you wrote the book and all of that. Can you can we kind of rewind a little bit? And then I kind of wanna re pass forward again to that mission that you initially had after he passed to give up your own dreams to pursue his and Mhmm. Kinda yeah. Let’s rewind the clock and then kind of fast forward again.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Of course. So rewind the clock to when when he passed. So he was deployed to Afghanistan in July of two thousand and nine, and he was killed on October second of two thousand nine. So it was almost, I think, just shy of three months into his deployment. And he was civil affairs officer. And so they, you know, they obviously dealt a lot with civilians, community leaders. And what we’ve been told and I I’ve since spoken to men and his unit is that there was what he thought was, you know, a meeting with a local community leader and they were out on foot and that was kind of part of it was they would go out on foot and all these things because they didn’t want to be threatening. They didn’t want to, like, show up to a meeting with a local leader in a tank. Right? So they show up on foot. The village was pretty empty, like in hindsight, suspiciously empty. But they got to where they were supposed to be this person and walked around to the back of the building, and there was a suicide bomber just waiting for them. And my brother who was the captain of their unit and then one other soldier in the unit and their translator were all killed.
Victoria Volk: And so receiving that news?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So I was you know, it surprised me at the time and still does, but, like, just how quickly they got the news to us. You know, it was that day. My parents had always said things like, no news is good news. And in, you know, leading up to that point, any period of not hearing anything, I found really terrifying. And then I realized just how quickly there were soldiers showing up at my parent store staff, and I realized no news is good news because if there’s bad news, they find you. So that night. It was a Friday. And my other brother, my brother, Sam, had a one year old, and who is now about to turn sixteen, which is wild. And I was babysitting. I was babysitting my nephew. I had just, you know, he was asleep. I had ordered dinner and I was sitting in my brother’s apartment and the front door opened. And my first thought was What is the delivery guy have a key to their apartment? I think that’s weird. And I kind of stood up to go walk over and see what was going on. And my brother and sister-in-law were standing there, and they did not look. Okay. And my my first thought was they must have gotten in a fight and, you know, now they’re home. And and literally, my first thought was like, oh, am I still gonna get this sushi or, like, am I gonna have to leave? And, like, do I wait for the delivery guy? Like
Victoria Volk: This will
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: just you know, it it really I don’t know how their faces didn’t break me out more, but they just kind of sandwiched me in a hug, and my brother Sam said, it’s Ben. And I said he’s but he’s okay. Right? And Sam said, no. Then far. And I remember sitting on their couch and kind of rocking than just saying this is not supposed to happen. This is not supposed to happen. And, you know, the kind of chain of events my dad had gotten home and there were soldiers on the on the doorstep. According to our neighbors. They had been there for a few hours, just waiting. And, you know, my parents ultimately called Sam and my my other brother. And I was living alone at the time, and so they were planning to drive into New York City to tell me because they were nervous about me getting the news, you know, alone in my apartment. And Sam said to them, she’s she’s sitting on my couch. I’ll go tell her. So he had to come home and tell me. And my brother Ben was engaged at the time and his fiance’s house was kind of in the middle of where we lived and where my parents lived. So we all met there. And then I went back home with my parents. And, you know, my it just felt like everything. Everything kind of crumbled in that moment. Right? Like, I was sitting there waiting for, like, dinner delivery. I was babysitting my nephew. And then the next thing I knew I was you know, a few hours later, I was back in my childhood home and we were figuring out who’s gonna drive to Dover to meet the transport plane and who’s gonna tell our grandma who’s you know, mid nineties and and just the the speed of it all was really surprising to me. The speed at which they got him home, the the speed at which we got the news, like, it all happened very fast especially considering that it happened very, very far away.
Victoria Volk: I like to I not like to, but I kinda think of trauma as too much, too soon, too fast.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. You
Victoria Volk: know Mhmm. How our minds can ruminate on that. On just getting the news. Right? And and what was it? Then it’s, like, later, it’s, like, a complete blur. You just I you know, having been deployed, you never I mean, it’s like, you know, we’re we’re busy. Right? We’re busy doing things and doing the mission every day and to think about the family sitting at home. Right? We, you know, we have we don’t know that side of it. My husband was through at the same time, so it was like we had a lot of family that was probably losing sleep and wondering if they were going to get a knock on the door, we did lose three men on our deployment and because we cleared roadside bones. That’s what we did. And I was a medic. So, yeah, it’s that’s the other side of the coin that the family sacrificed too. The families suffer too. And so Yeah. I I just you don’t go on deployment thinking you’re not gonna come home, but you definitely know that’s a possibility. Right? And every day Mhmm. The wire you think is today the day. And Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think about to the you know, and you were saying, like, too much, too fast. Like, I think about some of the, like, phone calls or things that that I thought were, like, really important, you know, in that moment. Like, I remember when I was done babysitting, I was going to meet up with a friend who was in town, who lived elsewhere. And I think I texted her something like, I’m I’m not gonna make it out tonight. My my brother was just killed in Afghanistan. You know? And, like, I called I was in grad school and we had, like, a Saturday workshop. And I was really nervous to call the head of my program to tell her I wasn’t gonna make it the next day. You know? And, like, I just didn’t even I didn’t know what I was saying. I didn’t know what I was doing. You know? I think there was a part of me that felt like this is the beginning and this is about to get really crazy. Like as soon as I get home as soon as I am with my parents, as soon as whatever, like, a lot of things are going to happen very quickly, and I need to just make sure no one expects anything of me, you know. In hindsight, like, I think it could have just not shown up. I could have just said, like, something came up. I’m not gonna be there or just not responded at all. You know, like but now I think about being on the receiving. Like, what would I have done if I had gotten that text from someone. What do you you know, but you’re just, like, the it it felt like methodical. Like, I didn’t know what it was doing, but I knew that I shouldn’t stand someone up. I knew that I shouldn’t just skip class. So, like, let me just let these people know, and then I can fall apart and do all of these other things. But but yeah. In hindsight, I was like, man, I, like, I knew what not. To do those few little things even though I genuinely you know, aside from that, I felt like I had no idea what was going on.
Victoria Volk: Almost as if the world stands still and then spinning around. Okay. And then your standstill, and it’s like everyone else is moving. It’s
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Yeah. And there was, like, no real filter for a while. Like, you know, I couldn’t think straight enough to even, like, filter myself. This is a this is a terrible story, but I I volunteered to go to my grandmother who was a character. She was very mean. So Leo loved her. And everyone else went to Dover. And I get cars sick and the idea of sitting in an eleven passenger van and driving from Connecticut to Delaware and back in one day so that I could see this casket move planes was too much. Like, that I something about the idea of being in that van and knowing I would be sick the whole like, I couldn’t do it. So I said, I’ll I’ll go tell grandma. And I told my grandma, you know, Ben was killed in Afghanistan. She said, what? Ben was killed in Afghanistan. And she kept saying what, and I kept saying it louder. And my boyfriend at the time, now my husband is, like, just standing off to the side, you know, clearly doesn’t know what to do is I’m just saying this over and over. And my grandma says, again, she’s in her mid nineties. And my grandma says, it should have been me. And I said, I know. Who’s like that? Except, yes, she was in her mid nineties. Yeah. But we all thought she would be the next one to go, you know? And I think about that all the time that she said it should have been made. And I said, I know. And she didn’t bat and I. You know? Like, she didn’t think it was weird. It was probably the most honest thing I’ve ever said. But there was just no filter left. You know, there was no it was all I could do just to go through the motions and to to try to to try to be gentle about anything was just, I think, more than I could, more than I could do.
Victoria Volk: That brings up anger for me in your book. You devote, like, a whole chapter to it, and the role of anger. And I’m curious what you would say to this, but what what did anger reveal to you about your grief?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think a lot of times anger was like the proof that I was not okay. You know, I’m an emotional person. I’d been an emotional person. I’m an anxious person. I’m not an angry person. Anchor was was new for me. And it and that made it really scary because you know, if I was feeling anxious or nervous, okay, I felt this before. I was feeling stat or lonely. Okay. I felt this before, but the anger. You know, everything else was a heightened emotion, the anger felt like a new emotion, scary emotion. And I couldn’t say, I I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know you know, how to channel it or or where to put it. And so I it made me feel very out of control and made me feel like I can’t like, pretend I’m okay because this is, like, not okay. And it would be very spud in, you know, as as anger can be.
And I just didn’t I didn’t expect it to be as intense as it was. I didn’t think it would be as hard to control as it was. And it was, you know, a part of grief that I didn’t know what to do with, really. And my brother was so not an angry person. He was very generous and loving and, like, a gentle giant, you know. And so anger wasn’t, you know, wasn’t in a motion I had really seen him demonstrate maybe ever. Even when I was like, I’m eight years younger, I spent plenty of time bothering him when he was in high school and annoying him. And he never got mad at me. He never got angry. And so it felt, you know, it felt bad. It felt kind of out of control, but it also felt like, out of character for me and out of character for him, you know? Like, I felt like he wouldn’t be this way. He wouldn’t be like this. Now, of course, he would. If someone else, you know, in our family had died instead of him, I’m sure he would have been just as angry as the rest of us. But it it felt very, like, a very unknown emotion to me. And so I I found it very, like, disconcerting and and kind of frightening.
Victoria Volk: What did you find that worked or helped you kind of soften the edges of that anger?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Time helped, but that’s, like, the worst possible answer. It’s, you know, one of the things that we have no control over. Letting myself be angry helped. You know, not just trying to sweep it under the rug, not trying to suppress it or, you know, ignore it. But, like, letting myself feel really pissed off. You know, I tell the story in the book of, like, breaking all of these dishes in my apartment. I tried that. It didn’t help as as much as I wanted. But there were definitely, like, yelling, screaming, like, yelling into a pillow, and just it was like it was like I had to get it out of my body in some way. And so crying yelling, not trying to you know, I would try to, like, hold it in and keep it together and be, you know, normal, but I thought it was normal. Even if I was just like home alone, which was so unnecessary. You know, if you can’t fall apart when you’re home alone, like, you have to be you have to let yourself do that. So I think, you know, when I let myself, like, yeah, I’m really angry. I am feeling really angry right now. And I’m just going to let myself feel really angry right now. And you know, maybe I’d go for a walk, maybe I’d scream into my pillow and eat nachos and watch arrested development, you know. But sometimes it was that, like, laughing would help, you know, I watched arrested development a lot. But I think, ultimately, it was just letting myself be angry and not trying to deny that. Was kind of ultimately, like, the thing that helped me deal with it the most.
Victoria Volk: Before Ben’s passing and growing up, what had been the conversation around grief and death and dying and you know, was it something that was openly talked about in your home or, you know, where you could express things and was it yeah. What what were the beliefs and the things that were kinda shared about grief and death and dying as you grew up.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. It was talked about, but I also think we were exceptionally fortunate. You know, my four grandparents all lived into their nineties. You know, the my my grandpa maybe my grandpa was eighty nine or ninety, but everyone else was mid nineties. But there were two the two years I was in grad school, I lost two grandparents, one uncle, and my brother. So it was kind of all at once. But, like, you know, I remember the first big loss was when my grandfather died, and that was in seventh grade. And, you know, I’m sure I’m sure we didn’t see all of the crying. I’m sure we didn’t see all of the emotion. But, like, I I my parents ex you know, they expressed emotion. They expressed grief. I remember in freshman year of high school, a dear friend of mine whose mom had grown up with my dad, and that was how I knew her. And her mom passed away. She had been stick with cancer for for a while. And I remember getting home from volleyball practice, and my dad was sitting on the front porch crying. And he told me, you know. And so it wasn’t it wasn’t a tabbing subject, but at the same time, we didn’t lose that many people, you know. And we didn’t lose them other than, you know, Laura, my friend’s mom, you know, my grandparents have lived very long, full lives, and it’s different, you know, to bury someone in their nineties versus someone in their thirties. And so by the time Ben died, you know, I had lost one friend and three of my grandparents. So grief existed. It was around, but but it was different. It was a different kind of grief than this was.
Victoria Volk: Have you experienced great experiences since been past and since the book has been written and published and what have and what has been your approach differently now in those experience. If you’ve had them, I I don’t wanna assume you did. But
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. I mean, because my grandmother died shortly after Ben just about two months later.
Victoria Volk: One said it should’ve been me.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. And, you know, I think in that case, we were all still so deep in grief that it it didn’t feel distinct in its in its own way. And I have experienced a while since then. I have a good friend whose sister who I knew died. And and there have been some other losses, but none, fortunately, like none in my immediate family or or anything that close. I think I’ve learned a lot about supporting other people who are grieving and, you know, things to say and not to say and to just show up. But I I yeah. Fortunately, there has not been a loss at a cyclical incident. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: A large theme about your book is the lack of attention that’s given to the siblings after a sibling passes. And so I’d like you to share what that experience was for you, things that maybe were unhelpful that people said to you. Just advice or not even advice, but just reassurances and things that you would like to share with other siblings who may listen to this who have lost a sibling.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. Siblings are known as forgotten mourners. And when I read that, you know, in in some of the kind of academic literature and grief literature, I had this moment of, like, we don’t we all know this. Like, what are we gonna do about it? We’re like, we’re just referencing it and passing, you know, and I even asked some grief experts about it. And they were like, oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s what they did. And it’s like, Why why didn’t anyone tell me this, you know? Why didn’t I know? And I think ultimately what it is is like people ask about other people and they don’t ask about you. So but you are the in. Right? So you’re the one that people can ask about how your parents are doing. And, you know, maybe how if it’s the sibling was an adult and was partnered, you know, how is the partner doing or how are the children doing? And I think that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with, you know, asking me how my parents are doing. The problem is that people would ask how your parents are doing and they don’t ask how you’re doing. So it’s not that, you know, you shouldn’t ask how someone’s parents are doing. It’s just first ask me how I’m doing. Then asks me how my parents are doing. Right? It’s not either or. But I’m not just the messenger. People will often ask the sibling questions that they would not ask a parent, you know, details on the cause of death, or things like that, you know, where a sibling might feel like a kind of a safe ally or, you know, someone who knows all of the dirty details, but isn’t the grieving parent so you can ask them. And all of those things are just I mean, you just shouldn’t ask. Right? If there’s a question that you wouldn’t ask the parent don’t ask the sibling. If you wouldn’t ask the spouse, don’t ask the sibling. Don’t put them in that position. Right? If someone wants to tell you, they’ll tell you. Or the advice I like to give is just like, do, like, a normal person does and just Google it. Right? Like, I have tried to Google people’s cause of death before. I am a very curious person. I’m a researcher. I have questions exactly. We all do it. Just just Google my brother. Right?
Victoria Volk: If you put more friends
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Exactly. Like, just do a little bit of Internet talking, and you might not you probably won’t find out all the boring details, but you’re gonna get a pretty good idea. And I think people, you know, they they ask the sibling as if the sibling is fine, but also the sibling has this insider knowledge. So, like, let’s get the info. And, you know, I think siblings also in many cases and this is not a dig, but I think siblings in many cases kind of diminish intentionally diminish their own grief. Because you are watching your parents, you know, completely fall apart, your parents have just lost a child. They are obviously not okay. Seeing them you know, seeing them grieve can be frightening, especially for, you know, younger people if you, you know, lose a sibling in childhood, you know, folks I’ve talked to who lost a sibling in childhood or early adolescence. Describe their parents’ grief as being frightening. And and so if you see your parents struggling that much, the last thing you wanna do is make it worse. You don’t want to make them worried. You don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to be a problem. They have enough on their plate. They’re dealing with enough. So you try to be as easy as you possibly can. I think, especially with children, again, that, like, children early adolescence goes to, like, I’m gonna be as easy as I can, so that no one has to worry about me, and I can just be the easy child. And you know, people put a lot of pressure on themselves to be that perfect surviving child and to live for for, you know, both of them and to never do anything wrong and never cause their parents any pain because they have seen their parent insignificant amount of pain and they don’t want to cause that. And I think in adult sibling loss, it looks more like just taking care of everything and not putting anything on your parents. Never wanting to be a burden. Never wanting to seem like you aren’t okay because you want them to believe that you and everything will be okay? And sometimes we’re very convincing. You know, sometimes if you do that enough and you do that for long enough, you can trick yourself into thinking that you’re fine. And, you know, the thing that I say a lot in the book, maybe too much. I wondered about this when I was reading the audiobook. If it gets better too much, is you can’t outrun Greek.
You might do a really good job, acting like you’re fine, and then five, ten years later, everyone else can talk about your sibling and laugh and reminisce and you can’t say they’re gay without crying. You know, you still feel raw, like like it was, you know, a month after they died. And that’s what it feels like, or it it manifest in other ways in, you know, on in harmful, like, self coping skills in in other ways that it manifests. And I think, ultimately, the thing that’s most difficult is, like, yes, you do wanna try to be kind of easy for your parents and you do want to, you know, no, they can’t handle your pain right now and they can’t take it on and they can’t support you the way that you want to be supported. All of those things are true, but you still need to try and support somewhere. And you still need to find an outlet. And it’s not gonna be your parents because they can’t help you. And they can’t be there for you in the way that you need someone to be there for you. But you have to find some way to face it and to deal with it. And conversely, you’re not really in a position to be your parents. Person or your parents best support. You know, you can support them in some ways, but, you know, there’s there’s a line where they can’t lean on you for everything because you do need to address your own grief and loss. And you can’t do that if you are the primary, you know, emotional caretaker of of your your parent. And so it’s a really difficult position because the people who are most affected and the people who know them the best and are probably grieving the most. Can’t be each other’s emotional support in every way, but you can sit together and you can cry together and you can talk about them together. You know, you just can’t you don’t have enough to give, you know. You you don’t have enough left to give to really be that for someone else, but you can still be together and you can still be experiencing it and grieving it together without having that kind of without trying to, like, put it on someone.
Victoria Volk: One of the as I was reading, like, I I read the book from the lens of as a child engraver who lost my father when I was eight. And so when you were talking about just the things what you were just saying, and there you we actually this is only the second time I came across I heard this word. Paratification. And what kind of Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. But there’s so many parallels between what I experience as a child grieving and what you described as a sibling grieving in the context of the relationship with the parents. And when one parent dies and the other is living, like there’s so many parallels of what that child experiences and what how you described it as a sibling with sibling loss. So I just wanna say, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, this book can bring up awarenesses and things for you that may not that you that kind of surprised you. So that was surprising to me how similar you described that and what my experience was. And you’ve mentioned this word parentification. Again, only second time I’ve heard this or seen this word, and it’s been, like, within a short amount of time. So I was, like, I’ve never heard this word. I’ve been doing I’ve been working with Grievers for, like, over four years. I’ve I you know, certified grief specialist, I’ve never heard this term. I’m like, so, but it’s when children are pushed into the parent role to be when it’s not developmentally appropriate, And you have a line in your book that says, I can’t take on your grief right now. And it’s only
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: that was a line from an interview. And this woman was saying that she you know, her mom was really relying on her calling her all hours the day or night whenever she is upset to talk to her and but she really had to set some boundaries. And I was fascinated by this because I was like, what did you say? I mean, admittedly, basically, my mom did not put that in my put me in that position, but I guarantee you. If she had, I would have latched on hook line and thinker. I would have answered every phone call. It would have completely drained me. But I would not have known how to push back or set a boundary. And I asked this woman at, oh, what did you say to her? And she was so it was like it came it seemed like it came so naturally to her. She said, I just told her I can’t take on your grief right now. And I remember scribbling it onto an index card, you know, and like highlighting it. Like, this means to go in This has a home in the book verbatim, you know, and it just yeah, I can’t take on your grief right now.
Victoria Volk: If only, if right? You know, and being a highly sensitive person, I’m like you, you know, deep feeler, helpers, healers, like, this is when you are and this is a thing, like, this is how, like, co dependency kind of, takes root and then just manifest. Right? In in in the dynamics of relationships when you have either a parent that had passed or, like, a sibling and then the relationship with the parent. Like, this is how this can, like, just kind of, really shift the dynamics of a relationship. You know? It Mhmm. It rocks everything. It, like, this rug is swept from underneath and all that you knew is no more. It completely changes everything and sometimes it brings out characteristics and things and people that because they don’t know what to do with what they’re feeling, you know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: It’s like Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It’s gotta do something with it. Well, I’ll just call my child and my child can be my therapist, you know.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Right. And my child understands and my child, you know, all of these things that are, you know I mean, probably not really true, but, like, you know, your child knew this person. They’re gonna answer your call. They’re, you know it just they’re gonna make you feel wanted or needed. Maybe, you know, I don’t know. But, yeah, it came up a lot. It came up in a lot of different people’s experiences. This, you know, just the authentication. You know, I think it’s the best word for it. It’s just making, putting the child into a role that is really developmentally appropriate for an adult and for a parent and not at all for a child. I think there’s also This is kind of related but broader. I think there’s this, like, larger cultural sentiment. They’re like, a lot of kids are growing up so fast and blah blah blah. But they’re not, you know, developmentally, biologically, they’re not. And so they’re exposed to more. They might know more. That doesn’t mean they’re equipped to handle it or that they’re equipped to handle these emotions. You know, our brains are not developing at a different speed. There’s just more input into it. And so it’s, I think, easy to think, to kind of fall into a trap of thinking that your child is an adult because they know big words and they can pair it back these things that they’ve seen on TikTok. But it doesn’t mean that their brain can actually understand or process or that you’re you know, that that they are emotionally prepared and developed and not to handle that stuff and and to handle the aftermath of it. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: I remind my kids all the time. Your frontal lobe is not developed until you’re like twenty five. So just kinda listen to me sometimes. I’ve been around the block longer than you. One thing I wanna get to and I actually just when I was reading this, I was like, I really wanna talk about this. And then I just recently saw one of your Instagram. You had done an interview and you talked about this very thing. And of course, I saw the title and I had to click on it and listen. But you were talking about the stages of grief. So in your book, it’s almost as if, like, like, you almost believed them. You believed in these things as a grief. Mhmm. And then fast forward to that instant that just recently listened to an interview. It’s like, oh, no. She doesn’t. There’s something else here. And so I actually had Ken Ross on my podcast, Elizabeth Kupala Ross’s son.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Okay.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And but I wanna from your perspective, in your grief story, and what you were kind of experiencing at the time when you were writing the book? Because there was actually a little bit of a delay. Wasn’t that because there was it seemed like it was two years, like, towards the end. I can’t remember which chapter it was. It was, like, I’m thirteen years out. Yeah. But you’re actually fifteen years out.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I’m fifteen years. So the book I finished the book at this point. I submitted the manuscript a year and a half ago.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Because there was, like, a year where it was in production. And then and I was writing it for about after it sold until it was due you know, I was probably writing it for a year and a half and then it was in production for a year and a half and I started it even, you know, before I had told it. So it was really written over the course of a few years. I think I believed So, like, taking a step back, I think the context that we all miss is that the stages of grief were developed in the context of death and dying, not for griefers, but for the person who is dying. Right? No one ever explained that to me. I thought it was how we agreed. And it’s not. It it was never meant to be that. Right? And so I thought, okay, I go I’m supposed to go through these stages. And so if I’m not going through the stages or if I’m going through the stages out of order or whatever I’m doing this wrong, there was a lot of times where I thought I was doing it wrong. And I didn’t understand even really until I was doing the research for the book. I mean, when I was researching the book was a, I so I knew by the time I was writing the book, I knew that, like, there was something off with either me or the stages of grief because we didn’t really work together. And I kind of had chalked it up to, like, well, maybe the stages of grief are, like, true for some people, but maybe they’re just not universal. And then when I was writing it, it was when I learned that no, actually, they weren’t meant for grievers at all in the first place. So, you know, of course not, but also that now there’s, you know, a a lot of a lot of people who think that it’s actually harmful to say that they’re at these stages of agreement or the exact reason that I experience, which is that it makes people feel like they’re doing it wrong or that, you know, there’s only one way to grieve or something like that, which there just isn’t. And I think, you know, in the book, I spell out the in in a lot of detail, there are these fifteen different, you know, known and acknowledged types of grief. And for me, you know, part of why I did that, everything in the book was something that, like, I found helpful for myself personally. And I think In the case of those types of grief, I found that a lot more helpful than the stages of grief because there was a lot more room for interpretation. There’s a lot more kind of possible combinations and and ways to breathe and ways to change And to me, not only did those resonate a lot more with my own experience, but they also kind of helped debunk this myth that there is one way to grieve, and it is to go through these five stages. You know, because if there are fifteen different types of grief that you can experience in combination with each other and really an unlimited number of combinations with each other, then how could there be these five stages that everyone goes through. And and I felt like that looking at the types of group grief was really more helpful for reflecting on your own experience and giving everyone that kind of weight and validation that they’re griefs that that they’re not grieving wrong, but there is no wrong weight to grieve. There are perhaps harmful, you know, self harm ways to grieve and destructive ways to grieve. But it’s all Greek. You know, it’s not it’s not wrong.
Victoria Volk: Well, because when I was reading those fifteen, I was like, wow, this is a lot. And I I resonated with some, you know, more than others. And I just thought, you know what, though, I never even if someone would have shared those with me years ago. That is like, do you think we’re looking for a label to identify with? Like, in our grief? Like, we’re just looking, where do I belong? And where does my grief fit in the grand scheme of grief. But at the end of the day, none of those are helpful anyway, either because Mhmm. They’re not moving you through your grief. They’re not helping you process your grief. It’s just a way of the type of grief. So at the end grieve is grief. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Greece is great. I think the label is helpful because it makes you feel like you’re not alone and you’re not I don’t want to use the word crazy, but like, you are not you’re not doing it wrong, you’re not alone. Right? If if there are enough people who’ve experienced this thing, that they’ve come up with a name for it. Then I’m not the only one who has ever felt this way. And I think it’s that. It’s knowing that you are not alone, knowing that you are not losing your mind, knowing that you are not you know, reacting in a way that no one has ever reacted before or that you’re dover reacting or underreacting or whatever. I think the thing about a label is if there’s a label on something, then you are not the only one who has ever experienced this. There have been enough people who have experienced this that someone gave it a name, and that can be really validating. So, you know, and I think in some ways, it can help you figure out how to move through it because maybe you can figure out what the what the thing is to work on. But maybe then you work on it and you fall into one of the you know, like, it’s it’s it’s all gonna be a lifelong process. It’s not it’s never gonna be, like, fixed. But I do think especially for siblings who feel like their loss and their grief has been ignored and diminished to begin with. It’s really easy to feel like you’re overreacting or you’re doing this wrong or you’re not really supposed to be grieving or any of these other things. And so the label gives validation to the emotions you’re feeling even if it might not you know, give you a a path or like a step by step plan to follow, it makes you feel less alone and it makes you feel less like you’ve lost control of your mind.
Victoria Volk: Can we talk about forgiveness? Yes. Okay. So I am curious if you in your research ever heard of the book, the grief recovery handbook?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. Oh. Or maybe I’ve heard of it, but I don’t think I’ve read it.
Victoria Volk: K. Well, this is me going through the handbook. You know, I’m like a researcher too. Right? Like, I can do this myself. I can go through this process myself. Yeah. No. I became certified group specialist out as I went after I realized I couldn’t do it myself. But I wanna talk about forgiveness because I’m curious if that has shifted for you a little bit since the book has been out. Because when you talked about it in your book, it was it was as if it was it’s like a gift you give somebody else. But what I’ve learned is that forgiveness as a gift I give myself. Mhmm. So I’m curious how if that’s shifted for you or if maybe that’s a perspective that you hadn’t considered before?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I don’t think I struggled with forgiveness as much as a lot of the people that I interviewed and spoke with. You know, there were there were people for whom forgiveness, you know, often because of the cause of death or, you know, the things that led up to it. Forgiveness was a big ask. And forgiveness was something where hearing their story I I can’t help but always kind of imagine myself in that position. And there were some stories where I thought I don’t I don’t know if I would have gone to forgiveness or could have gone to forgiveness. And so I was but I found myself being extremely you know, I found the forgiveness that people gave their loved ones to be extremely admirable. You know? And I would think I don’t know if I could have forgiven, but the fact that you did is incredible to me and it feels like such a gift. And I think, yes, it’s a gift to the other person, but This is a terrible thing to say, but if you’ve read the book, you know, I I again have very little filter. They don’t need your forgiveness because they’re dead. Right? And I do think that even when people are dead, they’re around us and their spirits are around us and we can feel their presence. But I think that by the time you’re a spirit that’s around us, you also kind of don’t need our forgiveness anymore. Like, hopefully, they know what the purpose was, and they know the greater meaning, and they probably look at us and think, like, you’ll get it one day. You know? And so I do I think forgiveness is for us. I don’t think forgiveness is for them. You know, I don’t think that that my brother, wherever he is, is losing sleep or, you know, worried that we’re not gonna forgive him. I think he sees a much bigger picture than we do, but I think it’s easy for us to loosely over giving that forgiveness. So I do think that forgiveness is when it comes to grief, you know, forgiveness and life, something different. But when it comes to forgiving someone who has died, I think it is a gift that we give ourselves, not something that we do on their behalf.
Victoria Volk: Well, and the thing is is you’re never gonna get an apology. Right? They’re gone?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: No. You’re never gonna get an apology, and they’re never gonna be, like, thank you so much for forgiving me.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. So you’re sitting
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: out, like,
Victoria Volk: he’ll jail. You’re stuck in jail until yep. Can do that for yourself. Yeah. And that’s why it is yeah. So in this book is what it says, forgiveness is giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I like that. Can I hang up? Any memorized letter yesterday?
Victoria Volk: Any memorized resentment of past events will limit and restrict our ability to participate fully in life. Mhmm. And Mhmm. Forgiveness is an action. It’s not a feeling.
And it is possible. I’ve
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: done it. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: You know?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Read this book. Definitely.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I will.
Victoria Volk: It I think it will give you and then reach out to me and let me know what your thoughts are. I’m I’m really curious.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Well,
Victoria Volk: one of the interesting things I found in your book to key points that I wanna bring up is You talk about one of the hardest things about sibling loss is accepting that the departed sibling existed in only one phase or part of the surviving sibling’s life. And It’s like as if, like, you know that it’s like they’re frozen in time in this phase of your life and all the phases that are to come, they’re not a part of it and how they know your childhood, like, nobody else. And can fill the gaps. And that struck a chord with me because, you know, I’m nine years younger than my sister, and she’s already filling the gaps for me for many years. Like, you know, because she obviously remembers more than I do about certain things. And I loved how you were called Squaver kitten. You know, because, you know, my sister is Veronica, and I’m Victoria, and she’s she’s always been big v and I’m little v. So we kinda have that. But yeah. And I would like you to speak to that just that how that’s kind of a consistent theme that you saw in the research that you were doing and it may be your own experience. Howard Bauchner:
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. You know, I think going back to, you know, how we started this conversation and talking about siblings as our longest relationship. You know, they really biologically, they really should be our longest shared relationship. And that the your siblings, you know, are part of your life before any kind of adult partnership ornaments. And they continue in your life past the death of your parents. Traditionally. Right? Typically. And so you just they’re just always there. You always expect them to be there. Right? And you always expect, you know, you said your sister is nine years older than you. And so your sister should always be nine years older than you because she has always been nine years older than him. My brother was eight years older than me. So I’m now older than him.
Which is not the way the world should work. Right? Is
Victoria Volk: Wanting to skip your birthday in the book?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. Yes. It’s like, you know, that Internet mean. Like, the math doesn’t matter. Like, my brother is eight years older than me, but I am older than him. Mhmm. And so you just expect that they will always be there because they always have been there and because that’s the birth order and that’s how that works. And so it’s hard to imagine there’s there’s I write about this in the book that there’s, like, a link between the part of our brain that we use for imagination and the part of our brain that we use for memory. So it’s hard to imagine something that, you don’t have a memory of it and and kind of vice versa. They’re they’re connected. And so I don’t have, you know, I didn’t have a memory of a world that he didn’t exist in. And so I couldn’t imagine a world that he didn’t exist in. It didn’t logically make sense to me. Because of the way our brains are wired, you know, there’s a very clear reason why that connection wasn’t made. And, you know, for me, I just always assumed my kids would know their uncles. And that, you know, my brother always wanted kids. I I assumed he would be a dad. Right? I didn’t think I would hit those milestones. Without him present, I didn’t think I would hit milestones that he never did. And it it really forces you to rewire, to literally rewire the synapses in your brain to understand the world in a different way. And siblings create their identities, you know, compared to and in opposition to each other. And so they’re such a central figure in our identity development and in who we are and then they’re gone. And it’s really hard to to center yourself again and just to figure out how everything now fits together with that key piece that’s missing. Again, even if it’s a bad relationship. Maybe your whole identity development has been based on the fact that no matter what you do not want to be like your sister, then you do everything different than your sister. Your sister is still a lynchpin in that identity development. So when she’s gone, when you’re not anchoring yourself on making sure you’re different than her, then who are you, and what do you do? You know, it’s hard to even imagine it. Because it’s just such an unknown world. And getting older than that is a real you know, I don’t know I don’t know if you were at that point with the loss of your father, but I’ve heard the same thing from people who’ve lost a parent that becoming older than your parent can feel very disorienting. You know?
Victoria Volk: It was actually, I’m just I’m yeah. He died when he was forty four. Mhmm. And for me like, turning forty four for me, I couldn’t experience that year without knowing or feeling like now imagine if I was given six months to live. You know what I mean? Like, putting myself in those shoes and imagining myself like my father and his experience and and he actually lived, like, sixteen months. But yeah. In turning forty five and being older. Yeah. It’s it’s those those dates. Right? Those milestones that they don’t stop even thirty plus years out. They don’t stop. Mhmm. And so this brings me it’s a good segue into because we’re kinda getting short on time, but I wanna bring this up because I think it’s so important. It’s a huge undercurrent in your book is music. Mhmm. How important music was to bend? How important it had been to your healing in through the throughout the book? You song lyrics have been huge. And then they get to the end of the book and you mention, and I was like, what? Indigo girls was his favorite band. I was Mhmm. Mhmm.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: What? Mhmm. I You were in the military. That has to be rare. Right? That there are soldiers
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Favorite band to be Indigo girls.
Victoria Volk: I actually so I actually texted my a girlfriend of mine, your book, and I said I just finished this. And she just said at the end that her you know, that Indigo Girls was her brother’s favorite band, and I just I thought of her because she and I have spent spent so much time in high school even after. Like, we’re still friends, you know, driving cruising down the road, seeing it. Like, I had the Elko part, she had the Sipreno, like, I’ve seen them in concert. Like, I think I even have a gut guitar pick that they threw out. Yeah. So I was like, what? Like, I don’t know. Like, he would have been like I like, I feel like he’s like a kindred spirit some way. Just how you described him and talked about him and through the music and all that.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Can I tell you a really good Indigo Girl story that happened after the book?
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: So Indigo Girls were coming to New Haven, which is where I live. And this was last August or September, just about a year ago. And I bought tickets to go with three of my girlfriends. And one of the first concerts I had been to was Indigo Girls in New Haven, after this concert venue called The Palace. So It’s approaching, I get the edits back from the publisher and they are due the same day as the Indigo World concert. So now the Indigo World concert takes on even more weight because now I’m like, okay, I need to hit send on this. Before the concert. And this is gonna be our celebratory concert. So I get to edits in, you know, everyone’s excited. My girlfriend’s all everyone’s excited. And I’m telling them about this first Indigo Girls concert I went to, which my brother Sam was also at. We all we all went through Indigo Girls faces. And and I was telling them about the policy at her, and I I was like, I get I don’t think it even exists anymore. And we walk into this venue. And I was like, this place looks like the Palace, and I Google it, and it is the Palace Theater, just new management and they changed the name. So now I realized I’m at the same you know, venue where it’s one of my first concerts, Indigo growth, all of these things. And we’re stand I was like, I’m gonna get something from the merch table. We’re standing in line with the merch table, and I say to my friend, Dana, I wish there was something that was, like, a piece of merch that was like symbolic of finishing the book and, you know, getting the manuscript in. And she said, you mean like that t shirt that has a bookcase on it? And their swag was like band book and it was like the t shirt had these bookshelves on it and the front pocket looked like a library, hard pocket. So I get so I get the tshirt, walk in the whole set is these oversized bookshelves with books on it. And then they start playing and they start playing one of the songs that I have in their book that starts with that’s a newer song. I hadn’t heard it before, but it the first line of the song is oh, Annie. I am sorry for your grief. So they start playing that song, which is kind of a, like, b side, like, deep track. Right? I’m crying. And I said to my friends, if they do power of two next, I I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I’m I’m probably gonna faint. Churna, next step they pray the power of two. And I am just balling, you know. And it was just it was, like, I you know what I’m talking about, this is the book that, like, I I was a bit obtuse to signs for a while. I was not really open to them. And eventually, once I was, I kind of realized that my brother had been, like, beating me over the head with them. And after power of two, my friend was like, so can we all agree that this was a sign? I said, yes. Yes. I feel like he’s here. And it was just, like, amazing moment where I, you know, I felt like he was at the concert with us. I felt like he was at the concert with us and I felt like he kept being like, Annie, I’m here. I’m still here. Don’t write this off. I know you’re gonna write this off. Let me just give you a little bit more proof. This is me. You know, it looks like again and again and again and it was just amazing. It was just it was an incredible experience and it felt like very much a culmination of of everything I had been working on and, you know, everything that he had loved. And, yeah, it was just incredible.
Victoria Volk: I have chill bumps and chill bumps. It truth bumps, I’ll say. Yeah. If that’s not a sign, holy
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: grail. Exactly. By the end of
Victoria Volk: In the book, you talked about with the little blue flowers, and I was like, whoa. That’s that’s pretty good sign. You’ll just have to read the book my friends to read that one, but it you talk I I’m glad you went there about the continuing bonds because, you know, depending on how you grow up and what your beliefs are and, you know, maybe as a child, you weren’t taught that, hey, you can still talk to your loved one. You can still talk to your sibling. You can still talk to your dad or your mom or whomever passed away or your childhood friend, you know, we aren’t or your pet even. Right? Like, you children, you know, they completely they totally bond with their pets. We just aren’t taught that that that bond can continue. You know, I think as adults, we kind of pass our beliefs, whatever they are onto our kids. And so we don’t believe that. We believe when you die, you just die, you go with the grave, and there’s that’s all that there is. Then, of course, that’s what children will believe. And you you don’t rule that continuing bonds is is possible, and that can be really healing for people.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely. I think growing up, I’m Jewish, and growing up, you know, I kind of was taught or believe that there’s a heaven, but there’s not a hell. Like, Jews don’t have a hell. And so I thought there was a heaven that everyone went to, but I didn’t think there was, like, any kind of connection between life on earth and whatever’s going on in heaven. So, like, when my grandfather died, when when people died, I imagined them, like, off in heaven, hanging out together, having a blast. But not that there was a back and forth or that there was a connection. And I I think I, you know, obviously, I eventually got there, but it was like I was kinda way there, you know, but I didn’t really I didn’t really think there was a relationship between the two so much, but now now I do.
Victoria Volk: Well, you need to talk about how that came about in the book too, and so people just have to read the book to find out. So just keep plugging the book in that way. But yeah. I and there’s like, there’s so much more I could talk about. But I know you have to get going, but I just wanna thank you for this work that you put out in the world. And again, like, even if you haven’t lost a sibling, if you’ve lost somebody else in your life, there’s something you can glean from this book. Again, I have more things that we could talk about, but I want you to give you an opportunity if you want to share something that you don’t feel you got to, that you feel is important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I think I’d love to this conversation and all of your questions, and I think You’re the only I think the biggest message is just that it’s okay to grieve. It’s okay to grieve your sibling. You know? It makes sense. That you’re grieving your sibling. And, you know, I want people to know that they are allowed to that they are that they don’t need to be stomach, and they don’t need to be okay. And it’s, you know, it’s okay to also breathe. And Yeah. I think that’s the takeaway.
Victoria Volk: What comes to my mind, I get this visual of, like, you know, when you kinda shrink down and you get small because the grief around you of other people is so big and you kinda just make yourself small. And it’s almost like you just kinda go like this. Just make room for it.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Make room Yes. Grieve. Yes. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you? Find your book? Can they connect with you all the things? I’ll put the links in the show notes, but I’ll have you share that as well.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yeah. So they can find the book, always the sibling, anywhere folks are sold. And you can find me on Instagram at annie Squaver, Ornstein, my name, or annie sorenstein dot com. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: What are you working on now?
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: I don’t know. I really want to write something else and I’m trying to figure out what comes next. What’s the next idea? I have too many of them or perhaps not just not the right one. I don’t know. But working on figuring out what comes next.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I I have another I wrote a book too and a self-published though, and it’s I know I have another book in me, but it’s it hasn’t like like just landed. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. Yeah.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Wake up one
Victoria Volk: day and you have a book title. I was like, oh, I got a book title.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: And this one, you know, people ask, like, how was I able to do it? Because I have a full time job in kids. And it was like, well, I but I had to like, I I don’t know how I did it. I just knew I had to do it, and I I need that. I need to figure out, you know, what’s what’s the next one that I have to write. And I’m I’m excited to figure that out.
Victoria Volk: You made it a priority. And that’s the difference between I mean, everybody has twenty four hours in the day. It’s what you prioritize in those twenty four hours. I got up before five thirty every morning. That was just my writing. Exactly. Because that was happening to me. You make time for what’s important.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Yes. And I need to find that next thing that matters that much because that’s also when I would write my book, but it takes a lot for me to get up early. I hate it. I kept waiting to start enjoying it or to become a morning person and who’d get to happen. But clearly, if there’s a good enough reason, I will do it. So I am I am exploring possible reason to wake up early.
Victoria Volk: Well, I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this book.
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Thank you. Yeah. Anytime we have to be.
Victoria Volk: Thank you again. Well, stay connected online. I’m sure. So
Annie Sklaver Orenstein: Alright. Sounds good.
Victoria Volk: Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today’s guest, Carolina Sotomayor, is a renowned fertility Reiki womb healer who shares how Reiki helped her conceive her son. We also dive deeper into her childhood stories and the emotional wounds that created what Carolina believes were the energetic blocks to conceiving.
Carolina’s Path to Healing 🧘♀️
- Personal Struggles: Initially struggling with conception despite no medical issues, Carolina turned to Reiki after suggestions from her grief therapist and a psychic.
- Journey Through Adversity: Her pregnancy was filled with challenges, including anxiety, surgeries, and postpartum depression. Reiki played a pivotal role in her recovery.
The Power of Energy Healing 💫
- Reiki Success Stories: With experience in four different lineages and over 100 successful “Reiki babies,” Carolina’s practice connects mothers-to-be with their spirit babies.
- Make A Baby Membership: Offers live sessions, guided meditations, prerecorded modules, and masterclasses for women on their fertility journeys.
Embracing Self-Care 🎗️
- Cultural Reflections: Highlights how societal conditioning often undervalues self-care leading to involuntary life pauses such as illnesses or accidents.
- Nonnegotiable Self-Care: Stresses make self-care nonnegotiable in releasing trapped emotions and preventing physical ailments and emotional blockages.
Overcoming Childhood Trauma 🛤️
- Tumultuous Upbringing: Raised by a single mother struggling with alcoholism and anger issues, she faced neglect from both parents post-divorce.
- Resilience & Boundaries: Shares insights on generational pain while emphasizing the importance of setting boundaries for emotional well-being.
Transformative Insights 🌺
- Recognizes that ignoring personal healing can lead to profound crises.
- Advocates for prioritizing oneself as central to breaking cycles of trauma.
Carolina’s experiences underscore the transformative power of confronting unresolved emotions. She passionately advocates recognizing self-worth while creating supportive communities worldwide to help women achieve their motherhood dreams.
Let this episode inspire you to embrace your journey toward healing and hope! 💖
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Healing Power of Reiki in Fertility and Personal Growth
In the latest episode of “Grieving Voices,” I delve into a profound conversation with Carolina Sotomayor, a fertility Reiki womb healer. Carolina’s journey from personal struggles to becoming a beacon of hope for women on their fertility journeys is nothing short of inspiring.
A Journey Rooted in Personal Experience
Carolina’s path to motherhood was fraught with challenges. Despite having no medical issues, she struggled to conceive. Her grief therapist suggested exploring Reiki or antidepressants due to unresolved sadness. This advice was echoed by a psychic who identified blockages in her throat and sacral plexus chakras.
After sustaining a concussion, Carolina decided to delve deeper into Reiki healing—a decision that changed her life forever. Shortly after beginning her practice, she conceived her son Ollie.
Overcoming Adversities Through Energy Healing
Carolina’s pregnancy brought its own set of complications—anxiety, medical surgeries, and ultimately a traumatic birth leading to Ollie’s NICU stay and severe postpartum anxiety and depression. It took 18 months for Carolina to recover fully through the combination of traditional therapy and Reiki healing.
Her experience profoundly transformed her understanding of energy healing’s potential, motivating her mission to help other women facing similar struggles.
The Cultural Undervaluation of Self-Care
One significant insight Carolina shares is the cultural undervaluation of self-care. She emphasizes how ignoring personal healing can lead to involuntary pauses like illnesses or accidents that force us to slow down and address our unresolved emotions.
Carolina recounts “God smack moments” where life forced her into reflection—moments crucial for releasing trapped emotions that could otherwise manifest as physical ailments or emotional blockages hindering fertility.
Societal Conditioning Against Emotional Expression
The discussion also touches upon societal conditioning discouraging emotional expression. Unresolved grief often manifests physically if not addressed properly—a point where practices like Reiki become invaluable in releasing these pent-up emotions.
Breaking Cycles Through Generational Pain
Raised by an alcoholic single mother amidst emotional neglect compounded by an abusive father post-divorce shaped much of Carolina’s resilience today. Through extensive therapy combined with support systems including friends & family alongside reiki practices allowed overcoming such adversities while setting healthy boundaries ensuring better mental health well-being now being passed onto future generations within families breaking cycles trauma altogether!
Practical Applications And Recommendations:
1) Prioritize Self-Care: Make time every day dedicated solely towards yourself whether it be meditation yoga etc., ensuring overall wellness both mentally physically spiritually alike! 2) Explore Alternative Therapies: Consider incorporating alternative therapies such as reiki acupuncture aromatherapy among others aiding holistic approaches addressing root causes rather than just symptoms alone! 3) Set Healthy Boundaries: Learn importance saying ‘no’ when necessary avoiding burnout maintaining healthier relationships around you too!
By sharing stories like Carolinas’, we hope inspire readers take proactive steps nurturing themselves fostering balanced lives benefiting everyone involved! For more insights connect directly via Instagram handle @thecarolinasotomayor website www.carolinasotomayor.com joining community supporting each other throughout various stages life’s beautiful yet challenging journey together!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Carolina Sotomayor. She is a fertility, rapey, womb healer, serving women who are trying to conceive. She’s the founder of Make A Baby membership, a monthly membership providing monthly live Reiki healing Zoom calls, Reiki guided meditations, prerecorded healing modules and master classes. Carolina has personally coached and helped women all over the world with over a hundred Reiki Babies into bringing over a hundred Reiki Babies into the world. She has a tune to four different lineages of Reiki and has a proven medium connecting mom to their spirit babies. After conceiving her own son with Reiki, Carolina has been on a mission to help women conceive with energy healing and heal through pregnancy and postpartum. I’m so excited to have you here because this is a unique line of work. And reiki isn’t unique, but I love how you’ve adapted it and have wielded its power for good and positive in your own life, but also in the lives of other So thank you for the work that you’re doing, bringing motherhood and parenthood to over a hundred people now.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s been exciting. Thank you so much for having me. I it was I believe in divine timing, intervention happening. And for me, Reiki was when it was happening to me and offered to me, I didn’t know it would end up here. So for me, I was struggling to conceive, and I was a newly wed, very much a struggling newly wed, married to the best man I had ever known and still heavily married too.
But we were not getting pregnant. There was nothing wrong with me. They said, you’re just really sad. So I started grief therapy. Still not getting pregnant.
And then I plateaued in my healing journey with her, and she’s like, you need to either do Reiki or get on an anti antidepressant because I was still the sad girl. Also, at that same time, I had fallen off my horse and it was put on medical leave. That conversation of, like, you need to do reiki or get try antidepressants because the trauma wasn’t leaving my body. I was still sad after her going for her for over a year and a half. Sometimes twice a week, it was definitely weekly. And essentially, she wanted me to get reiki because one I was introducing, I was like, I I’m purifying my body and birth control, like, I don’t wanna put anything else on my body. And that’s just a personal decision. I support anyone that if you do what’s best for you and your medical team. So that same week because I had suffered a concussion from falling off my horse. I went to my favorite psychic town where I was taking workshops, and she had offered she’s I she’s, like, your throat and your sacral plexus shockers are blocked. You need Reiki. You don’t need any crystals for your concussion. And it’s, like, I don’t know. I’m not ready yet, but then this then the therapist that same week had recommended and they’re two separate sources, not related to each other. So I was like, wait a minute. What is this? So I went with because I was still, like, I was still very medically inclined at that point. And I went and got Reiki the next week. And then the next month, we were testing positive with our son, Oli, who’s now almost eight. He’s seven. Second grader. And I continued to get ricky through my pregnancy, and it helped me with my anxiety. I had prenatal anxiety. I had my gallbladder removed. I had totaled my car.
And Henry Gold Butter removed within a week of each other. Ollie, very much, is a miracle baby, had a really traumatic birth, because of the birth trauma and just the way that the hospital handled everything. Allie ended up with NICU. I had a nasty infection. Allie had an infection from a prolonged labor. My Reiki master sent me Reiki during that time. My postpartum was very tumultuous with just a lot of irrational thoughts, and I just got diagnosed with severe PPA and PPD, which is postpartum depression and anxiety. And through by postpartum, I really leaned into the talk therapy and the Reiki as a combination. And it took me about eighteen months to fully come out of it, but because of the consistent support, of both together. That helps me come out of the darkness is what I like to say.
It allowed me to function. I stayed home with him for four months. I had six months postpartum. I got certified in Reiki one and two, Levels one and two, which gives you the ability to give yourself Reiki and others. And I started to give Reiki to myself and my son. He suffered from chronic ear infections. I suffered I had mastitis several several times, so I would give Reiki to myself, and I would in support of my breast milk supply because it’s all heart chakra based. And I was still I I became sad again. I was sad because I had not gotten the birth that I wanted to. We knew we only had one child and I had lost mine shot. I was grieving the loss of that positive birth and everything I had worked for. And when people say, well, you just have a healthy baby. Wasn’t it worth it? I was like, no. That’s that’s bullshit.
Like, I I got this is a one time, right of passage moments for a woman. And I did not get what I had painted or I had written down in my size nine font birth plan, and my birth plan had gone sideways. So I had spent I spent a big majority of my time reliving my birth in that eighteen months and that’s what plagued me and my darkness. And I was fine taking care of baby. I was happy to climb as long as I was with him, but I’d just be these moments of things that went wrong with my birth that plagued me. And you know, ups like, just certain things that were very violent in my birth that were unexpected and just really shook me. And it took me a long time to come out of, but it was because of the ragey that I learned how to heal myself I learned about energetics truly in my postpartum of, like, things that erupted from my childhood that because I was so sleep deprived and I was so tired and I was just really at my most raw, your mind can can sometimes unlock things that you were not prepared to face again or remember or remember even that they occurred at all the first time. So in my postpartum, I felt like my childhood abuse and my trauma has just kind of exploded. And my wound healing really started was as the postpartum. I had an abortion in my twenties.
I had been raped in my twenties. My and that really plagued a lot with my birth trauma and combined was really, really messy and really dark along with a lot of, like, worth issues in my dad’s death, like, really missing him and really trying to, like, have this baby and my favorite person died. And I really wish he was here, the one person that I was so close to. How can I exist in a world where I have this beautiful baby and I don’t have him to share it with? Was a lot.
But with Ricky and being able to heal myself, it was more about moment by moment as those things came up because it didn’t all happen at once. It was riding the wave and understanding that It’s okay to feel what you feel, but it’s about releasing it and understanding, okay, what do I need to do to get back to what’s really important and putting boundaries around my grief I learned that was there there’s it’s okay for me to put a pause on things so I can still be a working mom and be present or I need to be present, but then also create space. In time where I get to feel those feelings, honor them, and release them because I was still working a manufacturing job. I was in pharmaceutical manufacturing. It was a very demanding job, breastfeeding, pumping, and taking him picking up up from day care. And that was a very real thing, breadwinner of the family. I still had to be a person, so that was the main thing is that I would Reiki would allow me to be grounded enough to function but also I could go deeper when I needed to. And that’s really the gist of it, you know, that was long.
Victoria Volk: What do you say to those people listening that say, well, I don’t have time. I don’t have time. To for energy healing work. We are in this Western society that’s going to go go go. So, I I mean, I know the answer. Like, we just have to make our self care non negotiable, but how did you how did you do that? Like, what did that look like? Like, what how did you decide
Carolina Sotomayor: on that? I have chills. It’s very easy. Either you make the time and you prioritize yourself or whatever you believe in will make you life will make it happen for you or the universe or God whatever is your belief. There was a term I once heard and say, God’s smack God will smack you if you don’t do it first.
Like, he’ll show you signs of what you need to do, or the universe will send you hints. If you don’t take care of it yourself, they’ll put you in an adult time out is what I was calling it. When I fell off my horse, that was the first time I was forced physically to sit still in my entire life. I did not know it at the time, but I was in fight or flight. And it was the first time that I had to sit still. Couldn’t be on a phone. I couldn’t drive. I had depth of perception, like, with my vision, like, my foot would miss the curb because of my concussion. I had fell in a ditch off my horse and the con and I had memory problems. So I couldn’t drive can be in the iPad, I couldn’t read, my eyes couldn’t focus on a page, I would get dizzy, and I couldn’t remember the the numbers. They would say, okay, here’s a series of numbers, say them backwards, and I couldn’t do it. So I was out of work for eight weeks. And that is when Ricky was introduced to me. And I wasn’t I lived in a one floor apartment, so it was very safe for me. But basically, I just sat there and I would welcome anyone that would come and sit with me I couldn’t do anything else, but often the time people were busy, so it’s during that eight weeks that I got to sit alone with myself and learn to really be okay with that because there’s really nothing else to do.
And that was my opinion, god saying, hey, you’ve been running and you can’t run away from your feelings anymore. Your dad died. Your horse died. And you’re married. What if you wanna have a baby, you need to fill your stuff. And that was the first time that I was open to really making a shift of when she had the conversation with me. And the Ricky was offered to me. And then I had the Ricky session and I and my husband, he had to drive me and pick me up. And I came out, I felt like I was floating. I had remembered I was like, it was the first time that I had a huge shift in my energy. I felt like this fifty pound boulder ever since my dad had died had been lifted from my chest. And that was something that changed for me. So for me, it’s my opinion, what I tell my clients is pay attention to the patterns and the signs. Either take care of it yourself or something will happen where it will cause you to. And sometimes that looks different from me. I was able to recover from my concussion and I went back to work and I went back to work and I was pregnant. Mhmm. So or some people get sick. Physical illness is a manifestation of something of a stuck emotion in your body. And we’re not we are conditioned to stuff our emotions and not release them. Our emotions last for ninety seconds, but we have to be consciously trained? Like, we have to be trained? We have to consciously be mindful of do I wanna keep this? Am I ready to release this? Or are we gonna release it? And I think that I mean, that’s something I’m constantly reminding my son up. I’m like, okay. Breath work. We’re gonna release this. Are you ready to release it? No, I’m still mad. Okay. Let’s hold on to it a little bit longer. Check-in, are you ready to release this? And like, this is me breaking that cycle with him. You don’t have to hold on to it. So that prevents disease and him. That prevents you know, infertility issues in him and them getting stuck in his home because men have wounds too. And our emotions can get stored anywhere in our body, but the most commonly concentrated a concentrated area are our wounds is that particular chakra. And infertility is just a really stuffed emotional reservoir that needs to be released is what I find. So either take care of it yourself or I think you will be made too. I do know that from all of my work, there is a pattern. When people say, oh, I just don’t have time to heal, obviously, it’s not a priority for them. Well, we have to look at a couple of things why it’s not. Either they’re putting other people before themselves or they’re too scared to do it at the moment.
Both both are that is just a valid Those are things that people do. However, I ask you is who is more important than you? And who is going to save you when you do have that life moment when you’re in hospital or you fall off your horse? Or you have that car crash or you are whatever. He was going to fix your body in that moment. They might be able to bring you soup. They might be able to take your kids to the park. They might be able to do some grocery shopping for you to help you out a little bit. But you are the most important person in your life, and I really believe that in your relationship with yourself, and it and when people don’t prioritize themselves, it’s a lack of worthiness. For me? it is the root causes? Like, you don’t feel worthy to prioritize yourself or they have to prove or earn their worthiness to put themselves for, like so if they do need to have a break or they need to have energy healing, well, I have to do this entire to do list before I actually earn that time out or that that relief. And for me is that is that’s an indicative thing of, like, you learned something in your childhood where you had to earn, rest. You had to earn healing, and that is not correct. I will battle anyone for that.
Healing is your birthright. Rest is your birthright. You are born worthy of being happy and your life is not meant to suffer. Will we suffer? Yes. But it does and how we move through that is really a choice in my opinion. So for me is, like, where where are you prior who are you prioritizing? And for me as a mom I had to learn because I burnt myself several times out is the more that I put myself first and I am pouring from a full cup, the happier my son is the better my marriage is, the happier my partner is, the calmer and more emotionally regulated my house is. Because for us, I’m the heartbeat of the house. So if I’m on if I’m dysregulated, if I’m angry, if I’m super upset, if I’m depressed, all shit’s going haywire.
So that’s that’s my when I put it in non frame, it’s, like, everyone else is gonna thrive when you thrive. When you are and when they see you actively caring for yourself and prioritizing yourself, that is teaching them that they need to do the same. Like, my little says, I need a loan time. I I’ve had enough of you. I need I need a loan time, please. And he goes in his room or he goes in his reading corner. Legit, bro, that’s good. Like, that is, like, that’s generational breaking actively. So I it’s not just, like, you’re not gonna get rewarded for burning yourself out or putting yourself last. Actually, you’re going to condition people to know that’s how you want to be treated.
Victoria Volk: And then you’ll end up in the hospital or in an accident or
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. All of these things. That’s just my lived life experience. I’m forty one, so I still think I’m twenty. But I mean, I’ve I’ve lived a little at this point and seen a lot and and human design, if you’re into that, I’m a projector.
So I am to guide. But as a healer, regardless of your human design projector or not, as a healer, and you take on that occupation or that hat in a in a lifetime, you have to live through some things so that you can be at least one or two steps ahead to provide enough wisdom or insight for the people that are going to go through the same things you did. Which means you have to live, fall down, crash, and burn, have your heart broken. You stab it a couple of times emotionally. Right.
I’m a three five.
Victoria Volk: Three five. That was my second that was my second. I’m a
Carolina Sotomayor: three five point. I teach human design in my membership to use to help manifest better for your babies. Okay. So Yeah. It’s pretty simple.
It’s just the arrow at the top. It’s the point left or point right. And then looking at your defined centers, but that’s how I think about it. It’s like it’s like the what’s asked, like, okay. So I don’t have time, but where are you putting your time?
As an entrepreneur, I over the past year, I have looked at sales, I’ve looked at revenue and things like that. And I was, like, where am I really spent? Where am I why do I, you know, have time to do the things that do make money? I had identified the things that didn’t make money. And what was I doing?
I had to perform an audit. I the things that don’t make me money are not important. The things that do make me money and create impact on my audience, those are the things I’m gonna spend eighty percent of my time on. The other things don’t matter. They don’t even I don’t even do them anymore.
So where are you spending your time? Who’s consuming it? And how much of it do you have left over as a current state? And why are these people more important than you and your well-being?
Victoria Volk: I love that because energy is currency. Right? Is oh, yes. And I
Carolina Sotomayor: like to put it as the word as attention. Who has your attention?
Victoria Volk: Do a self audit. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Self audit. Do an inventory. It’ll be a surprise.
Victoria Volk: I just wanna touch on too something that you said that, you know, how physical things manifest. And that is completely true. Like, in the work that I do is in grief recovery and what I’ve learned about grief and my own story and the story Right. People that I’ve been in my podcast and that I’ve worked with. When we look at our lives like, okay, fender benders, blowing up horse, accidents, missteps, if you’re kind of known to be the clumsy person or and physical manifestations, right, migraines or body pain that has no explanation, like, fibromyalgia, you know, things like this.
Like, this is grief. Friends. This is grief. What is it that you are holding on to? That you are unwilling to let go of?
Or that your body is screaming to you? To be energetically released. And so you touched on it growing up, but you what can we dive deeper into what you said?
Carolina Sotomayor: Up in book, go for it. I love having these deep conversations.
Victoria Volk: So growing up, you haven’t mentioned your mom
Carolina Sotomayor: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And sometimes the mother wounds. Can you attach to the mom? Can you elaborate what your childhood was like,
Carolina Sotomayor: oh, sure. It’s funny. We talk about the ones that are ruined a lot in fertility, father wound too. Mhmm. I have recently put a lot of effort into my mother wound because I spent a lot of, like, the past decade. Telling my father wouldn’t. My childhood was I was it was very tumultuous. It was very chaotic. Full of different people. My parents got separated when my dad gave my mom an ultimatum and he didn’t want a third child. I was the third child. She chose to keep me and they got divorced. Formally when I was eleven months old and she moved from Florida to Pennsylvania and she was a single mom that eventually just stopped to stopped growing at that point. Emotionally. And from what I have learned from my healing with a lot of therapy, hypnosis, and a shaman, Anne Rieke is my mom was ill equipped to be a single mom of three children, that had had a magnitude of issues individually. And she is an active functioning alcoholic with anger issues and the most unhealed person I’ve ever met but I have learned that and what I have grown to deeply appreciate and love for her is she’s the ultimate survivor. And what I have identified her life purpose was to endure and survive so that I could launch from there. And appreciating and seeing her as a person has allowed me to see her more as my mom instead of I used to call her I won’t share her name, but I used to call her by her first name. And that was because it was easier for me to just use that. It was really hard because of all of the things that had been done said and it was really difficult for me to use the word mom. So I would call her by her first name. She actually kind of coming to visit next week, but my childhood was with her and then my brother and sister both My brother graduated high school, went into the military, my sister decided to go in to live with my dad at age fourteen, and I was young, I was kindergarten, first grade when all this happened, and they dipped. And I was alone. So I was her I was an only child from early elementary age. And then I left her at age fifteen to Intellate with my dad.
And I graduated high school and did college in Florida, and then I moved to Nebraska when I was in my when I was twenty nine. So that’s pretty much my span. But when I went from a single mom household to a single dad, it was not without abuse. My dad never hit me, but I didn’t know what an emotional abuse was or mental abuse or or financial abuse. I just didn’t know any of those things.
Until probably I got married, and I started with a different therapist. And I didn’t know he was a narcissist. But he was I felt safe with him because he didn’t he didn’t hit me. So I identified abuse as physical abuse, as like he didn’t hit me. Oh, this is what safety is. At least it’s calmer. He doesn’t yell. But it it was it was very controlling. He was very he would wait in my parking lot. I’d soccer practice.
He would wait during prom. He drove me there waiting in the hotel parking lot, picked me up. It was very there was no independence. Wanted to pick my college classes for a semester, I mean, just very controlling Latino dad but, like, beyond normal. So I went from being abused and trying to avoid conflict and being trying to be perfect straight a student to you have to be perfect straight a student.
This is what you have to live up to. This is what your sister did. You’re the only child here in the house again, and he hadn’t been a parent for a long time because my sister had been out of the house. My sister and my brother are, like, ten and twelve years older than me. And and that is really significant for me because I it was it was again feeling unwanted, hearing the story of, like, you’ve never been wanted by him.
I chose to keep you, but then you’re not, like, very loving or wanted, and then going to, well, you’re only here because there is nowhere else to put you. And you and your mom, obviously, you’re not getting along. That was an understatement. So it was a lot to work through and feel very much a man abandoned and neglected emotionally. Even physically, we run food stamps. My mom, we were the when I live with my mom, we were the family that went to the pantry, and I remember getting, like, this large thing of baloney. And cheese. And I learned to slice the baloney at a really young age to make baloney sandwiches. I learned how to make my own, like I knew how to use the stove and She was gone a lot. She we lived in a trailer on some land next to her sister and her husband. And her husband was really nice, but he made it very clear that, you know, we were visitors. Perfect. And we lived there from one to fifteen. But you I could you I could kick you guys out at any time. So there was not an there was not a strong feeling of being wanted anywhere. And that was something I really struggled when it affected my self esteem. I felt very ugly, got bullied a lot. It was not a very easy time in my life for sure. But what I do take away from all of those things was what not to do. I knew for a long time, like, during my teenage years, early twenties.
I was like, I don’t wanna be a parent. I don’t wanna get married. But then I matured. I healed. I got into the European college. I took advantage of those services. And and I just learned, like, some of the shit that happened to me was really fucked up. And it wasn’t my fault because I got blamed for everything. This is the youngest. You’re the one who broke up the family and that’s a huge reason like I just don’t get along with my siblings. They’re both toxic. They think I’m toxic and that’s okay. You know, I haven’t seen them since we settled my dad’s estate and that’s okay. I wish them well and I didn’t used to. I wish them well. I don’t know anything about their lives. They never been to my wedding. They didn’t know anything about my husband or his son. And that’s okay. Like, I have peace in neutrality about that decision. I am now I’m not emotionally charged where I’m like, I hate you. No. Go do you and I appreciate you. Balnges are set for a reason. You don’t want me.
I don’t want you. It is for valid reasons. I feel like they find me threatening because I still talk to my mom, and they are no contact with her. And they blame her for a lot. But they had very different life experiences. They grew up with them as a married couple with two parents in a home for part of their lives. I have no memory of them being married. I have no memory or life experiences other than two people who created a trial that they accidentally made and they both equally hated each other. My brother and sister grew up in a home where My mom was a state home mom a state home mom and they had barbecues with my grandpa and visits with with my dad’s parents from Ecuador and my mom cooking and birthday parties in the backyard. I mean, it was the same house I lived in with him, but very different life experiences, and I respect that. So they have a very different emotional feeling in regard for my mom, but I did learn about emotional availability because of my siblings. I learned what it’s like to not be emotionally available to people And I was like, well, that’s exactly what I mean. I don’t want to be shut off from people. I want to be united with people. So that was a key thing that I learned at a very young age was I want to be emotionally available. I want to be vulnerable. I want to be accessible so I can connect with people. I don’t want to feel cold. And that’s essentially what I took away from that. But I I think that It was not it was not an easy childhood that’s for sure.
Victoria Volk: And this is a perfect example of how growing up in the same home. You have a very different perspective and a different lens of how you look at life and Mhmm. Because all relationships are unique, even if you would have all grown up in the at the same in the same time frame, in the same home, you still would have had your own perspectives, your own experiences because your relationships would have been unique. The word that comes up for me in as I was hearing you share was was shame.
Carolina Sotomayor: A lot of shame. I’d still something I struggle with. I feel I feel like I apologize a lot or So there’s guilt and shame still, like, shame that I went through the shame that I I don’t talk to them. That’s still something I have not fully healed or even, like, that’s a new one for me. I just discovered that probably.
I saw a TikTok maybe eight months ago, less than a year ago, and it was like, shame. I was like, that’s an emotion I haven’t danced with yet.
Victoria Volk: And it’s insidious.
Carolina Sotomayor: Right. So it is that would be probably next year of healing that I would need to do, but definitely a lot of shame because there was a lot of embarrassment. There was a lot of things that shouldn’t have happened. That did happen and that we’re real and that we’re hidden. A lot of secrets
Victoria Volk: and secrets really are what keep people separate. Barry, thank you for sharing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Always welcome.
Victoria Volk: And all of that being said, with your father passing and your siblings kind of creating this unpleasant environment because you said they sued the estate. Mhmm. At the same time you’re trying to conceive a child, would you agree? And what would you say to or add to this idea that grief is often like, what blocks us from greatness in our lives.
Carolina Sotomayor: A hundred percent grief was the number one thing that blocked me from conceiving. And once I started to feel safe, after he had passed is what was the result of that one rapey session? I was able to conceive because what I associated my dad with at that point in my life, not anymore. But at that point, I had related safety with my dad because there was an abandonment wound there from him and little girls want their daddy’s for particularly for me, I wanted to be a daddy’s girl. And once we reconnected, I had to work really hard to keep his attention. And once he died, I was like, I don’t have that safety anymore. Because when I did have his attention and when we were good and we were in speaking terms, I felt safe. I felt whole. I felt like I had everything I needed. And then and I feel like death is very bizarre. Like, a person that would call me every day or would pick up every day and send me an email and the emails were dear little girl. I stopped. And it was so weird because the people I had lost prior to that, they didn’t have consistent communication. They weren’t active in my life the way my father was up till his death. And having to write the check for his cremation, it was all very surreal. Like, it’s just so weird that they go from existing and talking to, like, they weren’t here at all, except some things. So
Victoria Volk: was it unexpected?
Carolina Sotomayor: He had colon cancer and he had stopped going to the doctor. He had a large mass on the side of his belly and never would go to the doctor. So what happened was I was in Nebraska. He was in Florida. He took a taxi to the hospital, checked himself into the emergency room. They admitted him. I got an accidental call. From a person, from his cell phone, and she was speaking Spanish. And I said, who is this? I was working in my cubicle. And the lady said, this is your dad’s nurse. He’s in the hospital. And then she hung up. And then my dad called back and I was like, my dad had never been with another woman since my mom. So I was like, who is this? I mean, it was a very strange occurrence. Like, my dad was always alone or he was like, he had never been with another person. So for another person to have possession or even to speak on his cell phone was very alarming. So And he goes, I’m fine. I’m like, where are you? He goes, I’m fine. I was like, where are you? And he and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I’m like, tell me everything. And it took a couple of phone calls of me harassing because he hung up on me. And I called back, and he was like, I’m in the hospital. I flew out the next morning, and he was very sick. And I had seen him two months prior, and I he did not look well. And he said, we should go to the doctor. You know, He was a very independent, strong minded person that could not be influenced by anyone.
So he slowly declined over the next three weeks from there. He got a colonoscopy in it. The colon cancer hadn’t metastatized to his liver. And all over in it, and he passed away. He went into hospice. And I was in a cart next to him the night he had passed. The ladies came in at six AM to check on him. I sat up, and then they said he’s taking his last breath. And then that was it. And it was, like, six AM on April sixth. My god to stay in it was a Catholic hospital. It was really beautiful. And I said, that’s that’s all he wanted was for me, like, he had stopped talking, but he knew. He’s like, I know this is gonna happen. He’s like, I just want us to be in a space where we can be together. He didn’t want me staying in a hotel. I’ve been seeing him with friends in our hotel, and he goes, I just want you with me. He’s so worried about money. And I was, like, just stay with me. And I was, like, okay.
But it took me a while to get him in out of the hospital into a private hospice. So we were able to do that the last two days, but the the last night, I was able to finally get a caught and I sat next to him and I sat next to his bed and it was so nice. And I just remember them coming in, and it was, like, so fast. And I just set up, and I was, like, stunned. And I just started making phone calls at that point.
This really, like, texted my brother. He’s like, you need to come. He’s gone. And then, like, texting, like, my I call her my fairy godmother, like, she used to be my old boss. And I was like, Rosa, you need to come. And my friends my best friend’s dad was incredible support. So he was like, I need to come. And they came and then I had to handle the cremation and just having people that didn’t have to be there that were just really looking out for me because as a thirty year old, I didn’t know what to do. No one tells you, like, my best friend’s dad, he taught me how to drive. And he was like, come with me. You can’t see him be bagged. Come with me. We’re gonna go we’re gonna go to another four. I was like, I just need to be with him. I need to be with him to the end. He goes, he’s already gone. You can’t unsee those things. And this is not your place. He this I’m being your dad. And I’m just like,
Victoria Volk: And I
Carolina Sotomayor: was like, okay. Because nobody you can’t unsee those things. Like, I had changed his diaper and I had fed him and I was making all of his phone calls and all of his demands and running all of his errands during the time that he was awake. And it was very messy and it was very angry. I’m so grateful that I didn’t see that because, like, I feel like during those moments, I was so blessed by these two caring people who were really looking out for me. So when there was so much against me with my siblings and I was a naive, thirty year old who was just trying to take care of her dad who had no idea what the hell she was doing. So I think a
Victoria Volk: lot of this experience taught you how you needed to be loved.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah. It is a huge reason why it’s a huge reason of why I live my life now. Like, I live intentionally slower. We live a very simple life because it allows us to have a more regulated nervous system. When I’m more when your my nervous system is more regulated, I have more capacity or emotions and to be careful and mindful of how I want to love myself and others. Because that takes effort because it’s very easy for me to default to angry, controlling, yelling. I think it takes more effort to not do those things when you are ingrained DNA coded trauma lived to resist those responses until those responses are no longer an urge or the reactiveness. It I may spend the rest of my life resisting those urges or even, like, you know, hitting, wanting to hit. You know, I that not like, because I was hit. Like, that’s you don’t know until you’re in those situations, like, when you’re treated, you take so much effort to undo. And because my husband comes from such a different background, it’s a lot of conversation. So I have learned, like, what are my triggers? And what that allows me? What do I need to stay in this embodiment of a life that I want? What are the absolute non negotiables that I must have to exist so that I can love myself. I can live in a state of being. And it’s taken a lot of, like, trial and error and a lot of discussions and a lot of commitment to I am worth this. I am worth the effort. So it’s not just like, I’m gonna choose to be happy. I’m gonna choose not gonna be angry. No. It’s also like decluttering their house and making sure their systems and that I have a ritual in place. Like, so when I am triggered, I we have safe words and safe words are, you know, for a place where my kiddo has one and that that’s, like, and immediate. Okay. Let’s go have a talk. Do you wanna leave? And it’s just, like and then it’s, like, they’re my husband and I have a say, there’s the reason why there’s two of us. I’m, like, I can’t type out. I’m tapped out. And they’re, like, we have words for that to, like so it’s just an immediate, like, attention grabber and and it’s because I love myself enough that I don’t have to suffer and I don’t have to endure. And that I can my life can be full of love and I can’t give my son that different life.
Victoria Volk: What I hear you saying is that communication
Carolina Sotomayor: is huge. We overcommunicate We I think over communication in our marriage has been very good. Very It’s been really helpful. I think I’ve undiagnosed ADHD. So he reminds me of a lot of things we put things in a family calendar. I think that active listening and over communication has been really healing too because it’s being because I feel like that means you can be feel seen, heard, appreciated, valued. When I feel hurt, I feel safe. It creates a lot of peace knowing what to expect when he’s gonna go into the office or when I need to boot pick up or when he has flag football or soccer or when I’m gonna be doing a Ricky call. I have find a lot of safety in my marriage, and it’s been really I think when I think if I have helped lived over many lifetimes, it’s probably one of the greatest things that’s ever happened to me.
Victoria Volk: I’m happy for you.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you. He is he’s made me feel safe at the very beginning of her marriage. I think the first thing was I felt safe to be myself fully with him and that’s been the launching pad from there.
Victoria Volk: And that’s a great mention too. And I think, you know, aside from all of the things you just said about over communication and boundaries and safe words and systems, it’s a self awareness of of who you are Mhmm. And what you need. Yes. But more so who you are at the core of who you are? Like, who so many of us, I think, we walk through our life, like, who am I? And we can search our entire lifetimes, go to our deathbeds, not really be asking that.
Carolina Sotomayor: I feel like my dad did that. He didn’t know. I I it’s what I feel. Anything that’s I think I relate that to emotional availability and vulnerability is, like, their any resistance to that is a lack of is also a resistance to know or have awareness. Because if you can’t feel what are you telling clients, if you can’t know what you’re feeling, You can’t tell me what you need for your next step. I don’t care what you want. I need to know what you need first before we get to the want. Can’t run before we we can’t crawl or walk. Like, if you can’t tell me I because it’s different energy versus, like, I think I need this versus I feel I need because then those are two different parts of your body and two different depths. Versus, like, first layers, I think I need a hug or I feel I need you to to hug me and hold me.
It’s two different things. And then the receipt of that is gonna be different. If you were to receive what you asked for. The impact will be different. In my opinion,
Victoria Volk: I was listening to a podcast the other day, and It was it was about, like, manifestation and energy and and money and things like that. But you can apply, again, energy is a currency. Right? And everything is energy. Everything is energy. And it’s like this what comes to my mind now as we’re talking and having this conversation is, what do you have the capacity? What do you have the energetic? What can you energetically hold in your tank? Because we can have this you know, if we’re at an energetic place in our lives where we it’s like one thing after another, like this snowball effect of this this relationship going bad or credit card debt. It’s like so many things happen simultaneously in all areas or various areas of our lives and we don’t connect the dots that we are the common denominator. And it’s like, if you only have again, it comes back to the energy. If your energy is currency and you you’re putting it in all these unhealthy or unsupported whip things, that’s what you have energetic currency for. You’re not gonna have room to let anything else in if it’s all going out. And I think that relates to healing too. It’s like if if you’re looking at your life energetically.
Like, it’s just I’m just gonna suffer. It’s just I have a life. I’m just meant for a life of suffering because I believe that at one time in my life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Which is this the way life is? That’s what I’m saying. You’re gonna see the way they’re
Victoria Volk: suffering. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: And they she really believes that.
Victoria Volk: You That’s that that is the energy you walk the world with that you’re walking life with, and you’re bringing that to everything.
Carolina Sotomayor: And she goes, you’re so lucky. She said, no, I have made choices. And she goes, I don’t get that. I said, she goes, you’re so lucky to have a man like Ryan, or my husband’s hiding in him consciously. So lucky to have a husband like yours. Your dad x y z and like stop. He’s dead. You’ve been divorced my entire life. When is the dead horse gonna be beaten enough? Like like I need a choice to marry a healthy man based on our healthy relationship. He’s a whole person. He’s not he’s not an abuser. I made that choice. Yes, am I blessed to to have this, but I made that choice consciously. You know? I don’t know. I I don’t I get That’s for it. Yeah. I did the work. Like, I was the happiest at that point in my life I had ever been when I met him. And he also said that he knew that when by dating me and marrying me his life would ever be boring.
Victoria Volk: That’s what I say about my husband.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I tell everyone if the a member, his mom asked me he could she goes, why do you want to marry? Him. And I said, is that you know that no one’s ever gonna love me any better than him. He is everything. And I there’s not enough time I never there’s I never have enough time with him. I soak up I still love going on dates with him. Like, they’d say it’s the best. Like, I same Steven says that she goes, I love how good or friends you are. You generally enjoy your husband’s company, never called my husband a man child, or he’s my first child, and I would have never married him. But I never get enough time with him.
And I had dated and engaged before. I’ve never married before, but that’s how I knew. Like, this one’s the one for me. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You had said, on your website, you have a a part that says, your dad’s death in reference to your dad’s death, that it changed me, and it woke me up. In what way, do you feel like it changed you? And were you asleep in your life? Like, the the Carolina before and the Carolina after his death, how would you sum those two people up? Because death does change us.
Carolina Sotomayor: I I’ve thought about this before, and deep deep reflection are a couple of things. My dad’s dad’s death was a hundred percent the start of my spiritual awakening. I had been a faith girl. I had been a Christian girl. I had been a churchgoer. But because of his death, I was spiritually curious. I had believed in I have seen ghost. I have expelled I I even felt ghost in an energy in his house where, like, this stereo, if I fell asleep on the couch, it would turn on in blast static sound. It was awful. So his house was definitely haunted. My mom’s trailer had was haunted. So I had already had the basis of feeling like there was more after you die. I definitely believed in the afterlife in the spiritual realm. I’d never I’m into a cup in in Miami, you can go to Santa Yeah. It’s very real. So which is like, are are very prevalent. You can find them. I have been to a witch before. Usually, if you’re in a Cuban neighborhood, so you if you need They call it a bad news. Like, if you need a bath or, like, a spell, everyone’s at least gone once. So when you’re, like, early twenties or in your teenagers, you do stuff. So I had been to and I was, like, oh, shit’s real. So I had a little bit of a curiosity with that. So when he died, I was very curious to know what happened to them. And I was like, he can’t just not exist anymore. My love for him so strong. His love for me just does not exist. I don’t believe that. Because I’ve had dreams, like, of my Ebola who had died. And I was like, this can’t be the end. Like, my dad believed ashes to ashes, dirt to dirt. Like, he really believed nothing. And I was like, I was like, okay. Like, he didn’t really care where his ashes ended up. Like, his ashes are at my feet. They’re under they’re in his arm. Like, I keep it under my desk. I I move it around. Anyway, I started taking classes with the psychic, the local psychic, she offered like spirit guides, aliens, she would teach about Guardian angels, how to talk to people who have passed, Oracle cards. And I was starting to take these classes. And then I got a reading from her right before her wedding. I got my dad died in April. We got engaged in September. We got married in December. Of that year. So from the time that he proposed to the time we got married, it was very fast. It was ninety days. Just because we we wanted to be married. And right before our wedding, I got the reading. It was Thanksgiving time frame. And she she just said there would be certain things that would happen on our wedding day because my biggest my biggest sadness going into the wedding or my biggest grief was that he wasn’t gonna walk me down the aisle. And the wedding wedding was beautiful and there were certain things that happened that day that we that she said his presence would be known and there’s still things that happen that we don’t know. Like, there was a medallion placed that several people commented on on this table on the beach where we had poured the sand and the fishy and stood in the passers stood in front of. I didn’t see it. It’s not in any of the photos. But several guests had plummeted on it. My cousin goes, did you see that medallion that was on there? Did you where did that come from? And was like, are you talking? I never saw it.
It’s not in any of the pictures. For several people, Anodeon are like, what was that medallion? What was that was that a coin? I was like, I have no idea, but that was on the table in front of everyone. And there was only, like, twenty five thirty people at the the ceremony. So that was one thing. The sky was perfectly blue. And with white clouds and we got married in front of the lighthouse, he used to take us all too. He took them when he was married and then he took me. So this is a special place for us and we got married there in a way to honor him.
But my spiritual weight keying was just so that I could talk to him. So all this exploration, all these workshops, all of these psychic readings, was for me continued to hear from him. Didn’t I a hard time coping not talking to him? So I thought if I became a spiritual medium and I believed when someone said, like, everyone’s a psychic, you just turn it off. I was like, well, okay, let me start taking this seriously and it was I started to have experiences with him. Like, I would feel I I would have certain moments that this is before the horse fall, and this is before I had two horses. This is before the first horse died. I would go to the barn and I would cry on her. And it was during usually these drives on these gravel roads that I would have these experiences. I remember my right leg my right thigh got very cold, and I was sobbing. I know I’d play different songs to make me think of him. And I was just like, I just miss you. I just I don’t understand why this is my life now without you. And I would just go to the barn and I would cry. I would just stand and cry in my horse. She was everything to me and it was through that connection that idea experiences, little things like that. And then I started to smell him climbing up my apartment stairs. And I took a workshop on clear abilities and which is like clear cognizant. Clear sentence, clear audience, like, you can hear things, vision, you can see things, symbols. I started learning about angel numbers, and it started playing weird things like my girl was our song. And it would be I’d be walking through the office, and then I would just hear my girl playing. And it would just be, like, just little things that he would send me and was, like, okay, there’s something to this. So then I started getting repeated. I would hear that often and in rain in place because my girls are very specific. Mhmm. Song would hear it at Walmart on the speaker or it’d be somebody’s ring tone or it would play on my on my radio in the car. My new this is twenty twelve. So this is this is twenty fourteen. So it’s a very different time than, like, I I still listen to the radio and stuff versus, like, Spotify now. But then I I started to I got Reiki Attuned. And with every Reiki Attunement, my mediumship, my ability to channel got deeper and stronger. And when I started to use Oracle cards, I could start to channel with him. I started intuitively journaling, and he would show up in every medium I would try. So it wasn’t just straight senses of clear abilities and symbols. It was also using, like, my dad had a very specific b o. So, like, it was old spice and old man smell. Mhmm. So, like, when I smelled that, I was climbing up the apartment stairs that I had just moved into, and it was just, like, And I was like in the light flickered. I was like, okay. So now I have learned to believe occurrences. So and I can feel him when he’s around and when he’s not around. He’s not always around. So that my dad’s death led me to stretch me to believe that I was possible to I did a desire to wanna communicate with them, which meant I need to become a medium, which then let me to channel spirit babies I am doing now. I believe that because of his my desire to continue to talk to him, is what led me into my ability to channel. Because then when I started to channel professionally in paid sessions, I could talk to other loved ones. I could and then it and then I was in Ricky Sessions. I was working with moms who’ve lost babies. And they were grieving the losses of stillborn or medically terminated or a topic or a chemical pregnancy or a failed fertility treatment or an embryo transfer that didn’t work out. Connecting to those babies was the end result. Mhmm. What what Carolina was before my dad’s death? She was a she was a she was a lot more carefree. She was a lot she was a lot lighter, meaning, like, or a a blue yes. A lot more care free. I was a less healed, less considerate. I was very caring, but I was not as careful as I am. I’m very not self aware as I am now, obviously. But I also didn’t have a relationship with healing other than talk therapy And I was very much stuck in a dysregulated nervous system seeking everyone else’s approval to get validated. And had no self love and no self confidence. Everything was if I work hard, I’ll work harder, and then that’s how I got stuff. There was no there was not much self relationship other than work hard. Do what people tell you. Honestly, we’ll get you far, Ray. And try to have some fun sprinkled in. So I I I think I’m probably cutting myself short a little bit, but now it’s it’s a lot more I feel like just it’s just lightened day. I’m I can generally say I’m happy most of the time. And I love who I am. I love the life I’m living versus before I took a job because it was my first big girl job after graduating. I graduated twenty nine and got jobs early after, moved from Florida to Nebraska, didn’t know anyone. And it was because I wanted to start over, but I think she was strong.
But just didn’t have a lot of self awareness or a lot of love for herself.
Victoria Volk: I think what sums up what you just shared is if you wanna heal, Get to know yourself.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s true. Yourself.
Victoria Volk: Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: I’m sorry. That was pretty long winded.
Victoria Volk: No. It’s beautiful. That’s what I hear in what all that you shared. And even just my personal experience, it’s like, if we give ourselves the time and attention, like, really, it’s our inner child. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s yes. As an inner child, when I moved to Omaha, I didn’t know anyone. So I was like, I I was so lonely, and they didn’t wanna I’m not much of a drinker and all my coworkers, they drink because that’s what you do in the Midwest. Mhmm. And that’s where you meet people. Like, where do you get a boyfriend? Go to a bar. I can’t hold my liquor. I’m such a lightweight. So I started making a bucket list and playing visitor in my city, and Omaha is a great city.
I love it so much. And I was like, I had ahead disposable income for the first time. And I was like, what am I gonna do with a little money? So I went on Craigslist. And I said, what is the thing that I always wanted to do? I was like, this is my guest season because I was so lonely. Like, I didn’t know what to do because I was like, I wanna have some fun. So I found a trainer that was doing twenty five dollar horse lessons. And I would go because I wanted I always wanted a horse Like, I dreamt of horses. I would look up before I left Miami would look up how much horses cost?
How much could they how much does it cost to board? And I was like, that’s a nonsense. I can’t afford that. So then I I was like, and four twenty five dollar horse lessons. Well, three months in, I bought the horse less I bought the lesson horse.
And and she was the greatest thing that I had ever loved and the joke was the I love the horse more than my husband when we got married. It’s my husband’s still jokes because if she was still around, she would still outrank me. She was my hard horse. I knew it was Cheyenne. And that horse cared me for years, like, from, gosh, twenty twelve to twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen.
I loved her so much. She was amazing. And my inner child wanted a pony, wanted a horse so much. And I bought her. And she was in my engagement photos, like, and so lying about it. Like, the vet became a good friend to my husband and I, and he goes, I’m sorry to tell you this. It was kinda hurtful. He goes, I think you killed your horse. And I was like, I didn’t I don’t know what you’re talking about. He goes, you cried so much on her. Her she ended up having asthma and she couldn’t eat and breathe. At this like, she couldn’t eat and breathe at the same time in no matter for several months of steroids and treatment, her quality of life wasn’t very good anymore, and we just couldn’t and her cough was so bad. We the vets said the most humane thing was to put her down. So that was the hardest thing ever, but she so grieving her that the first two years of her marriage were shitty. And we I was I don’t remember a lot other than those moments. Like, my dad died. We got engaged. We got married. We settled the state. My horse died.
That was the order in which things happen. And we were trying to help, baby. And, you know, things, you know, you
Victoria Volk: didn’t have the energetic capacity for a baby.
Carolina Sotomayor: No, I didn’t. No. But with my horse dying, I think that was even harder. I think the I have it when I think about the grief, the grief from the court case of this this date settlement was harder than actually losing my dad, fighting with them. But the grief of losing my horse oh, god. Because she carried me, and it was it was my it was like a child to me. And having a relationship with a horse and riding them and training them and caring for them, especially if they’re sick and it’s your first horse. An animal that large, it’s and I have dogs now and I’ve had cats. It’s very different than relationship with dogs because it’s it’s very dangerous sport. It’s a lot of trust building, a lot of there’s a lot of energy that goes into a horse person relationship.
So, greeting her was really hard.
Victoria Volk: They say that emotionally, horses are the most similar to humans, emotionally.
Carolina Sotomayor: I quit horses. I I still had the second horse, but he was a butthole, and he was too much horse for me. And whereas the first horse, she made me overly confident, but she really was such a good horse he made up for my incompetence. And so the second one, we had a love hate relationship. But he ended up hurting his leg and he had to be put down too in twenty seventeen.
Yeah. So he had him for a while, but he was so old. I couldn’t he just became a lawn ornament. So I gave him treats. He was he was so ornury. I loved him, but I hated him. He was it wasn’t the same. And I was kinda resentful after she died. I was like, I’m stuck with you. So isn’t it like
Victoria Volk: seeing how you described your dad? You didn’t say the word ornery, but you said stubborn.
Carolina Sotomayor: Does that No. It’s transcribing my horse.
Victoria Volk: Right? But that’s how you described your dad. Like, not ordinary, but you meant describe
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, my dad was ordinary.
Victoria Volk: Oh, my
Carolina Sotomayor: dad was stubborn. Yeah. But this horse was, like, he was, like, the one of my bad boyfriends. Like, he was so good looking. Like, he was so gorgeous that as soon as you’re about to get over him, he’ll do something really nice. But then, like, a little bit later, he’ll turn around and do something really shitty. So, like, he would do things like bite me or, like, I’m grooming him or I’m I’m cinching up the the saddle to ride. He’d come around and try to bite me and or he would nip me. Like, he just loved to bite me. And I was like, why you?
Or, like, he’d push me and I’d fall down. He was sixteen hands high. He was huge.
Victoria Volk: Maybe he was never taught how to be gentle. You know what I mean?
Carolina Sotomayor: He picked on me. He was perfect for other people.
Victoria Volk: The bully. Oh.
Carolina Sotomayor: Other people would write them that were more like, I was a novice and that were, like, good writers and are born. They’re, like, oh my god, he’s such a good boy, or he would fake trip to, like, scare me while we were trail riding. And then he would just, like, look at me. Like, he hated my husband, so he stepped on my husband’s foot, and he looked at me while he was doing it and pricing his foot down. I yeah. No. Like, his name was Bucks Mosipi, and you. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Well, you know, we meet assholes in our in our human relationships. I guess we meet them in the animal world too. Right?
Carolina Sotomayor: Yes. It was like but he loves treats.
Victoria Volk: My youngest, we just watched a video just the other day of her. She must have been maybe three. I say around three years old, three or four. And my I had asked her on the video. I said, what do you wanna view when you grow up?
And she said, a vet. Wait. I wanna be a cow girl. And she has wanted a horse and dreamt of horses and horse, horse, horse, horse, horse, since she was eighty bitty. And so I imagine one day she’ll be just like you and have her own horse, and she’s actually planning to go to vet school. So she’s a sophomore in high school and she wants to be a vet, and she’s still pursued. She’s going to pursue that. So
Carolina Sotomayor: good for her. I think,
Victoria Volk: doubt she’ll have a horse.
Carolina Sotomayor: I would if I if I could have the first horse again, I would do horses again. Yeah. But because because of gotten the garter questions, like, you’re gonna get another horse? No. Nebraska winners could be brutal.
And we boarded they have a shelter, but they’re best if they’re in a herd. So not like stalled. So our horses would have a barn that they could fully go into as a herd, and then they would also have free access to go out. Like, but having I had older horses, they required extra care and not just, like, shots and floating their teeth and all that. Like, they need to be blindkicked. That’s very controversial. But, like, to keep weight on, to keep all those things. And in Nebraska, you can have three or four seasons on a day. And, like, depending on our winners, you can we’ve had winners where it would snow, but then it would get really warm. And if they sweat underneath their blanket, it’s bad. Like, and it could ruin their code and all of these things. So, like, to go out there, put the blanket on, take it off again, and it and it’d be in cold and, like, also be are you close enough to the barn? I just don’t wanna do that anymore. But if we had the first horse, guarantee you would be still a poor girl. But if it was for the second, the second one ruined me. And then this finally had one kid. Like, I was like, this this pregnancy, this birth, this is for is is was really rough. I don’t wanna do this again. And we we pretick, we had talked about only having one kid, but I was like, if it’s anything like the horses, I don’t wanna gamble this, bro. I don’t I we’re good. We’re good. We have three dogs. We’re good. I have three dogs.
Victoria Volk: Brings up a question for me. I’m glad you mentioned that because you essentially grew up as an only child.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: So, what does that bring up for you as your son being an only child?
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, god. He would give anything to have a sibling. He asked he asked if we could adopt, if we could foster, we talked about those. We were very open, and I was like, listen. The fact I literally I literally said it was, like, my ability to have a baby, this factory is closed. Was very difficult to achieve you. And he goes, why can’t you just go save a baby? I was like, it doesn’t work that way. I was like, we had to to talk about, like, you know, that it costs a lot of money to adopt, to foster. And I was like, we really like the way our family is now.
And then I was like, so, like, really trying to understand his need for a sibling. Essentially, he wants to belong. He wants someone that’s like him. He wants So what we have done to mitigate that is we’ve made extra efforts to my husband has a brother and we do I will move mountains to even it’s first for a day, we live in different states. So, aren’t my in laws live in Kansas now that used to live here?
So, they live in Wichita and my brother-in-law lives in Fort Worth. So, if there I will move efforts so that he can have cousin time, visits to to to get that sibling time that’s as close as possible. But my husband, he was very adamant coming into our marriage, so he only wanted child. And I was like, I think I would want one or two. Let’s see how it goes with one. And then as we had went through everything, he very much wanted to only have one child. And he’s like, you’ve had a really bad child experience like sibling experiences. He has his own he had a very good childhood, but he has his own feelings about certain topics. So for his purpose, like, we discussed, and he’s, like, we both decided collectively just one child, but I am in strong opinion. Our son will probably have, like, seven or eight children.
He loves babies. He he’s already told me he wants to be a dad and he goes, when I I have a family, he’s already thinking about it. I think it’s because we talk about babies all the time and people having babies because of what I do. We got another Ricky baby. They’re and and I had to describe, like, IVF is they have to have surgery sometimes to have the baby. Babies are made different ways. And he’s like, well, when I’m seventeen, I’m gonna have a family. I’m gonna be a dad. I was like, let’s wait a little bit longer. He told me that two days ago, because when I said it to you, he wants to be a dad. Do you have college to be a dad? No. No.
Victoria Volk: You go through college as you’re being a dad. I swear to say good. That’s about diversity you never get out of.
Carolina Sotomayor: But I think I I am actively working on being more I think I have a good I think as an adult, sometimes it can be really hard to be a kid again, but I think as a parent of an intentionally only child, you have to be their plainly at times. And I watched a creator in TikTok say that he was an only child in the consequences and how lonely it was. So I only became aware of this because he is now older. I mean, he’s still very young, but I am actively trying my like, over the past month, I realized, like, he he told me he at the end of summer, he was on pretty lonely, jam packing, late dates, grading community, community was really important to us, but, like, having regular play dates with the same people, so there’s more of a kinship there. I think it’s gonna be the best I can do.
We have three dogs. I hope that I hope that helps him.
Victoria Volk: And to help him, you know, we need a community, right, as adults. Like, we
Carolina Sotomayor: Right.
Victoria Volk: Driving community, and kids are no different. So it’s helping him find his people.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I I noticed that we tried Yeah. We tried soccer for the first time in the spring as an invitation from a preschool friend and to continue that relationship. And I was like, oh my gosh. Look how much more productive we are in a Saturday. Look, we made I made a friend who doesn’t even speak English, should we share the same name? She’s from Ukraine. And I learned to use Google translate, and our world exploded in the best ways with, like, new connection. So I think understanding the need for him to feel like he belongs somewhere is what I think it is and that he is he has a connection with someone. So me actively working on that part. Mhmm. I think will kind of
Victoria Volk: enrich his life.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. In a so we may not be able to do this, but I am like, he may not understand the emotional you need is. You wanna feel connected. You wanna feel like you belong. You wanna feel like you have something with someone.
And I’m creating that in different spots. So it’s not all in one pot too. That’s very strategic. So if, like, something goes south with school friends, he still has sport friends and he still has plate eight friends that are all not in the same bucket.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. My youngest too, she just had someone some a family moved here and now they’re they’re all about the horses together and, you know, they share the same interest and she’s phoned. You know, she was struggling, I think, for a while there to try and find somebody that had the same similar interest, you know, as her and
Carolina Sotomayor: They can do wonders. He’s relating to Pokemon. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Even coming out of their shell more so.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. We have he made a friend in his class, and he’s also into Pokemon. And he has a special he needs special attention throughout the day. And Ollie has sought him out, and he goes, I like being his friend because he needs me. And he also likes Pokemon. And as So we’ve done play dates with this kid, and he is so so sweet. And I’ve seen Ollie just light up, oh, my turn on scene dates, but I’ve seen my son light up so much because of the shared interest and the depth of, like, Do you have this card? Do you have do you have the evolve form so much? I know so much about Pokemon. But, you know, and it’s just I they just light up different than another like, is it something that they really care about?
Victoria Volk: Well, I’m gonna tell you something. My son would probably hate me for mentioning this on a podcast, but he’s into Pokemon. Helly. He’s nineteen.
Carolina Sotomayor: You be surprised. I looked up there’s a lot of grown adults who do it post a month ago. And we’re learning to battle. I’m not really sure. I’m I’m trying to get people to answer my questions on, like, how to build a deck so he can go to one of the tournaments. And their their website doesn’t work. Oh, goodness. I’m in a Facebook group with grown men. Really?
Victoria Volk: But I mean, it’s like and he’s been collecting these since he was a kid. So he’s nineteen. So
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s like,
Victoria Volk: well, like, plus years, ten years. For sure, ten plus years, he’s got a lot of cards. And he’ll show me the ones he’s really proud of and what they’re he’s been looking up, how much they’re worth, and so he’s you know, he’s got quite the collection.
Carolina Sotomayor: He goes to trading events as far as we’ve gotten, but we have three binders, and I’ve organized them by Yuval formed with him. And down the street, he had a there was a little bully down the street. And he kept saying how much he has, like, these v stars. And I’m like, what’s a v star Ollie? What is that? He goes, oh, so and so says that he have ten and I only have two. And I was like and he said it’s a mean things to me. I was like, Let’s go on eBay. And I’m a spiteful human. And I I bought I was like, is this one good?
I was like, we can’t spend, like, twenty dollars on a card, but we can spend a couple dollars on a card. And I ordered I ordered like I’m not kidding you. Fourteen or fifteen. I ordered so many VStar’s so that the next time they battled, he had just two pages full of v stars. And I was like, you go to show that little kid.
How many v stars you have? But it was not my finest parenting moment, but I was like, you you wanted like, in my instance, like, you’re taking this a little too far. I was like, no. It keeps going down. All you came home crying and I was like, no.
Victoria Volk: Not having this.
Carolina Sotomayor: Not having this. We will we will be victorious every day because they came for anyway, drive, like, in these little white envelopes. So excited to go get the mail. Yes.
Victoria Volk: My son loves it too, getting the mystery packs. Oh. It’s like Christmas. You know, you never know.
Carolina Sotomayor: Have you watched a livestream of those?
Victoria Volk: I’m sure he has. He’s like the
Carolina Sotomayor: only guy we have. We’ve gone in TikTok and we’ve watched these people unbox stuff. Wild.
Victoria Volk: It’s yeah. There’s you know, just like Ricky, you know, it’s like kind of feel like unicorn sometimes when you’re into the energy work and especially probably in the Midwest. You know, that’s I’m glad, you know, we kinda talked about that. But being in the Midwest, it’s not something we’re not as, like, progressive. Right? So do you did you ever feel like you know, like, it’s, like, grown man adults who love Pokemon. They’re probably kind of in the closet a little bit. It’s, like, didn’t you ever feel like that? Like, when you first, like, really got a little awkward. You were
Carolina Sotomayor: especially when I was still working corporate. I quit corporate about three years ago, three and a half years ago. So I did I’ve done I’ve been doing Ricky for seven years, and it was something I was really proud of, but also, like, really skurdish because I had also lost a lot of people who told me I was doing the devil’s work. Mhmm. So I was really kind of, like, in the closet about it because of how people reacted. But now there’s, like, a huge move movement. There’s a lot of spiritual practitioners in Omaha that are very open, and now it’s, like, fun to manifest. But it wasn’t like that in twenty seventeen. Like, if you use the pendulum, we were gonna hell. And I I my best friend, actually, last August, we went to visit her last July. So last August, she said, I’m really scared for your soul. You’re going straight to hell. I’m like, dude, this is not new. Like, you know, I’ve been doing this forever. But I was like, okay.
And she’s like, well, you’re not gonna you’re gonna stop it? Or do you wanna be my best friend? So it’s like, bro, even I don’t know I’m used since I was twenty. If you’re not into this, that’s okay. I’ll love you from afar, but we don’t, you know, I’m not I don’t believe in hell. I just believe in the other side. But if you think that’s what’s happening to me, then you don’t have to be a part of this show. You don’t have to be part of this party. And we parted. So for me, now I it took me a long time to really be, like, yeah, I’m a psychic medium. But it took, I think, time. It took years for me to be, like, get over those losses and, like, for me to stand strong. I’m like like, this is my life purpose. And I think I just needed proven evidence over time and time and time again, you know, when and to make like, to have, I think, the more legitimate I’ve I’ve really proven myself as into, like, my branding, my marketing, like, just it made me feel more legitimate. Mhmm. And when I switched from in person to online right before COVID happened, I quit seeing people in person. I I got more confident. I was like, Omaha is too small for me. I think that’s also why I went online. Was this like, there’s only so many people who are open to this and I feel like if I go online, I’ll find more people I’m meant for the world. That’s what I told myself. And essentially, that’s essentially what’s happened. I started the podcast and I’ve met so many people. And I we have eighteen thousand followers on TikTok, and we’re globally ranked every day with our podcast that make me be behind a podcast. So I don’t hide anymore. Like, either you like me, and I’m not gonna convince you, either I’m like, here here’s a FAQ question. If you wanna go look what it is, great. But I don’t convince anyone that they should do this. If you’re curious, I’ll talk to you. But that’s not my mission to convince you to do this.
And if you’re curious, I’ll I’ll have a conversation with you, but I’m not gonna convince you to do anything. That’s not my problem. It’s not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys. It’s certainly not gonna own that problem.
Victoria Volk: And if you are curious, it’s probably the universe, like, knocking you on the head. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I looked curious.
Victoria Volk: Called me too. Like, I kept hearing rapey, rapey, rapey, you know. What’s this rapey? I bought in the night. Went through rapey one and two and then I got my rapey master and then I went through corona, holy fireakey, and so that’s What do you
Carolina Sotomayor: think of holy fire corona? I love that that one changed my life, the corona. Mhmm. I like that one. And I did I did I want him to I was I was like a needle jut. I mean, the professional certification. So I took it with a licensed Yeah. I see our t teacher. I need that certificate. That level of certificate.
I couldn’t be, like, regular person.
Victoria Volk: Oh, I didn’t go through the licensing, but I was trained, like, my racking master teacher was one of thirty licensed rate emails. Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: No. That’s who you went like, so you can get, like, this special certificate. That’s what I really, really wanted. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It was my Reiki I think it was my Reiki too. I had a really profound experience and that kind of, like, solidified the deal for me for my healing personal healing.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Then I went into biofuel tuning. So now I use tuning force.
Carolina Sotomayor: Really? Oh, I’ve never played with tuning forks.
Victoria Volk: My friend, that is for me, personally, in my opinion, it’s more bang for your buck.
Carolina Sotomayor: It Oh. Tell me more.
Victoria Volk: It is it it is really deep. It’s it really matches the energy work that I want to be doing with people to help people really move through stuff because it’s it yeah. Biofil tuning.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, we’re gonna have to check after this. Yes. I
Victoria Volk: would love to. But, yeah, it’s that has been
Carolina Sotomayor: you should come in my podcast.
Victoria Volk: I would love to. I would love to. Jazzy. Good. So, yeah, it’s enabled me to do the work that I do with Grievers and, you know, I know what’s not mine?
You know? And I didn’t know that in the beginning, especially, and I’m maybe
Carolina Sotomayor: really hard to decipher.
Victoria Volk: It is. It’s like, oh,
Carolina Sotomayor: what am I feeling as this comes up? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. And I was like, wait a minute. I’m not I got a clear my stuff
Carolina Sotomayor: a hundred percent.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. Yeah. It’s energy work has enabled me to do the work that I do with with grief and talking to Grievers and, you know, because people
Carolina Sotomayor: move it out
Victoria Volk: of pressing. That’s so depressing.
Carolina Sotomayor: And I’m
Victoria Volk: like, grief is my jam. Like, it I could talk about it all the live long day. I never lived part of it.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. I hear stories of loss. I worked with a person yesterday who did a termination at twenty five weeks, which is really difficult to go for a person to go through. My husband’s like, are you okay? I’m like, yeah.
Just gonna make my decaf. And I was like, it it just becomes I was like, I can hold space for a lot because I’ve gone through a lot, but I also can appreciate her pain. Mhmm. I can see, like, I can hold space for it because but it’s not my story. I’ve done, like, enough it’s I’ve had enough practice to hold it apart from me and also no big grounded going into it and then cleanse after. Understand what I’m feeling is enough practice of know who’s talking to me when I’m in the session. Mhmm. I have a question. Have you I have you ever gotten a tune to another lineage of Ricky or only Holy Fire?
Victoria Volk: Only Holy Fire.
Carolina Sotomayor: I got a tune to Crystal Ricky, and then I got certified in Ricky for childbirth.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Carolina Sotomayor: And then I when I what I’ve settled on, it was kundalini Ricky. I found this woman and corporate
Victoria Volk: I’m sorry, what? Does she she incorporates breath work?
Carolina Sotomayor: No. It’s just basically there’s a few different symbols with the kundalini Reiki. It’s more potent and it’s easier from, like, with my practice with I have traditional use to eat, reiki chris o Reiki, the Holy Fire, one two Ricky Master in Corona, and then I got and I did childbirth in there, and then I did Kundalini last. I did this two years ago. She does she doesn’t teach, like, chakras, doesn’t teach anything about cord cutting. She gives you the ultimate and gives you a packet. And it’s was fifty bucks for every achievement, for the three achievements. And she does everything virtually over Zoom. And I found her in TikTok. And I had seen a video about Kundalini, and I became very interested in mother earth, like obsessed with her. And then the Kundalini awakening And I started to dive into I had a student and also a dear friend who I was training in Holy Fire Ricky Master. Mhmm. And And I and and then showing Charlie went on to Corona. And I was like, she’s she was studying Sandskrit, and she was discussing, like, the true meanings of some of the words. And I was like and she’s like, I don’t feel very settled by this. And when we’re having this discussion, I was like, well, I’ve been playing with Cunalini. Do you want didn’t come over to my side? Do you want this? And we played with that together. And I just find it more organic. It’s less like, I can get more done in a short amount of time. Like, I can do, like, a ten minute session and it feels like as if I done with corona for thirty. Mhmm. So it feels also just if Corona felt feminine and I still love corona, but if this feels like the most feminine for me, and it’s just very, very simple. It doesn’t have all the symbols, but it does have some symbols. But and it has different, like, DNA diving. It has this all these other things on the Reiki master, but that’s what I mainly practice now. And it’s I don’t know. It feels sparkly. It feels it’s it’s just flows easier for me. It feels lighter when I’m done with the session too. Like, when I have when I have to, like, tense myself after a session and I feel lighter. It’s not, like, it’s easier for me to move through sessions if I have to do a start role a day. I’m less tired at the end of the day.
Victoria Volk: Sounds interesting.
Carolina Sotomayor: You should play together. Yeah. Sounds like forks. I’ll tell you, like, clearly. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: We’ll have to yeah. We’ll have to connect after. And it’s what’s funny is that before we even started recording. We joked about this not being a two hour guest. It’s
Carolina Sotomayor: a big two hours.
Victoria Volk: And here we are an hour and fifty seven minutes
Carolina Sotomayor: set up. That’s funny.
Victoria Volk: So You are Oh, goodness. It’s one o’clock, the longest podcast. And I’ve enjoyed every minute of
Carolina Sotomayor: it too.
Victoria Volk: I think it was we went to a lot of different places, and I you know, there’s a lot of stuff on here. I haven’t asked, but I think in a lot of ways, you answered for me. I mean, you kinda went into the medium and how you kinda came. Yeah. I think you answered all the questions I had.
And that switches to Zaro.
Carolina Sotomayor: It’s not in my world.
Victoria Volk: But on the end with this, what gives you hope for the future?
Carolina Sotomayor: Or by future or just future in general.
Victoria Volk: It gives you hope for, I don’t know, the collective however you wanna answer that, however you interpret that,
Carolina Sotomayor: that you can redeem yourself at any time. You can start over at any time. Last night, I I I let a circle a a boom activation inside a membership. And somebody and I said, what is the most fearless, most fertile version of you? What is she like? And somebody said that they smiled knowingly that they were having the redemptive pregnancy in birth. And I that word was so powerful for me for me, I cried and I got goosebumps. And I love that how many times I can always start over and that gives me hope that I have that and I like that I can always redeem myself because I love myself enough and I love unconditionally the people around me and I’ve learned to love unconditionally. And because of that, I can always apologize and start over. I could always forgive myself and I could always start over and do better and try again. Anything that has allowed me to have hope that if I make a mistake, I’ll do better. I won’t repeat it. And that gives me hope. And because that means I can always be better and without mistakes, I will not grow. And I have a firm belief that whatever I am, my dad taught me this because whatever you are is the baseline of what your children will be. He goes, so make sure you’re really great. And I feel like I am doing what I was meant to do in this lifetime. And I hope if that is true that my son sees that, then I can only imagine what he’s going to set intentions for to make the world a better place because he can always start over. Because he loves himself enough that he can forgive himself. If he has to forgive, he can grow and expand, he can redeem himself again. And you think starting over, it also feels very fresh and that’s exciting. So when she like, and she I don’t know if I would have answered that before yesterday. I think just being loved probably would have been being loved by my husband and my son would have been my answer before yesterday.
Victoria Volk: I can tell you what your answer was before yesterday.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh, shit. Are you serious?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Because I asked it on my form.
Carolina Sotomayor: Oh my god. It’s so exciting.
Victoria Volk: If I can find it. When I think what would they really want for me in the the x situation, then I sit with that and proceed. It makes it easier to be fearless and go live the life I want. I think there’s more, but your answer today was perfect. It was beautiful. And it sounds like the antidote for shame too.
Carolina Sotomayor: Yeah. Yeah. You’d always start over. I I didn’t think a lot of people put like, if you have to start over, like, it’s a like, it you don’t have to start over all the way at a point x, you’re just starting over where you’re right now. Mhmm. So it’s it’s easier because you’re you’re at you’re evolved. You’re not starting over at the very beginning. You’re starting evolved from a further point. I think people underrate how, how good it can be just start over. You can start over just by a new day or the first of the month or the first of the year.
I mean, that’s why everyone does New Year’s resolutions. Right?
Victoria Volk: Yes.
Carolina Sotomayor: You can start over mid afternoon or at one:thirteen in the afternoon. I love the thing that’s really helpful.
Victoria Volk: Where can people reach you if they’d like to connect with you?
Carolina Sotomayor: I think Instagram is the easiest. My handle is the Carolina, like North and South, search my org, s o t o m a y o r. Or my website, caroline is it to my org dot com, or you can I think messaging and dimming me on Instagram is either you can follow me on TikTok and YouTube? We’re pretty active on YouTube too. We’re active on these things. Oh, my podcast. Yeah. Listen to the podcast. So forget about that one. Make a baby. Make a baby podcast. We are into making babies. We make babies with Reiki as our tagline. We’re two years old, and we’re close two. We’re a little over six thousand downloads. So we’re slow and steady. We’re we would love for you to take a listen. We come out weekly at minimum. Sometimes, like, this week, we’re doing in prompt two. We’re gonna post every day. Because we’re doing a healing challenge inside the membership. But, yeah, come and join us. Yeah. If you’re with listers once, I can give you the link. They can try the membership out for three days for free if they want to come and join us.
You can try it out before deciding if they wanna stay or not.
Victoria Volk: Tesla on the link. I’ll put that Yeah.
Carolina Sotomayor: I’ll email it to you right away.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Along with your contact information and
Carolina Sotomayor: Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much. I feel like this was a really I say it’s a lot, but when this is what’s so important to me with this podcast is to be able to give people the time in the space to Go Deep, to really share the story. To develop for me to develop a connection with you so that my listeners feel a connection with you. And I think that’s so that’s so important to me. And so thank you for coming to my podcast and True Ireland. And allowing me to sit with you through your stories.
Carolina Sotomayor: Thank you so much for for listening and having me.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Unlock the power of deep connections with one simple phrase: “Tell me more.”
Today, I explore how a single statement can transform relationships and foster emotional honesty. I also explore the impact of inviting others to share their stories, emphasizing the importance of being present and truly listening.
Key Takeaways:
– Discover why “Tell me more” is a game-changing invitation for deeper conversations.
– Learn how to create safe spaces for emotional sharing without needing to fix or judge.
– Understand the significance of connecting through genuine storytelling in your relationships.
Tune in now to enrich your interactions and support those around you on their grief journey.
RESOURCES:
- Teeccino – listeners receive 10% off the entire order with the code “THEUNLEASHEDHEART”
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Support the Show.
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
The Power of Emotional Honesty in Storytelling
The Importance of Deep Emotional Connections
The cornerstone of Grieving Voices lies in fostering deep emotional connections between guests and listeners. These connections are not just about sharing words; they involve touching hearts and minds on an intimate level. When we engage in emotionally honest storytelling, we transcend surface-level interactions and create bonds that resonate with empathy and understanding.
Why “Tell Me More” Matters
One powerful phrase highlighted by the host is “tell me more.” This simple invitation encourages individuals to open up and share their stories without fear of judgment or unsolicited advice. It’s an offer to sit with someone in their vulnerability, listen attentively, and provide nothing but your presence.
Imagine being asked to share your story genuinely for the first time—how liberating would that be? For many people, this might be an entirely new experience where they finally feel heard.
The Journey Towards Offering Support
However, offering such support requires one crucial step: undergoing one’s own emotional journey first. If you’ve never had the chance to share your story safely, it may be challenging to extend that same opportunity to others. Personal healing often precedes our ability to help heal others.
Normalizing Conversations About Grief
The host concludes by urging listeners who find value in these conversations about grief to share the podcast widely. By doing so, we contribute towards normalizing discussions around grief as naturally as talking about everyday topics like weather forecasts.
Grieving Voices aims not only at providing supportive content but also at making heartfelt dialogues commonplace.
Unleash Your Heart
So next time you find yourself listening intently or asking someone “tell me more,” remember—you’re participating in something much bigger than just a conversation—you’re helping unleash hearts…and lives too!
Thank you for being part of this transformative journey! And always remember when you unleash your heart; you unleash your life.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of Greeting Voices. I am your host Victoria V. And it’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded one in quite some time, so I felt it was about time. But I wasn’t sure up until today, actually, as I’m recording this, what I was going to talk about. But there’s been some themes popping up lately, and we’ve there’s been some losses in my community, really tragic deaths in my community. Friends dealing with certain things and conversations I’ve been having with guests on my podcast and in particular, if you haven’t listened to episode two zero seven with Tiff Carson from last week, that’s a great episode. She went very deep and it was just a really rich conversation. She was very vulnerable and it we were both crying. Just a really good episode to highlight the depths of grief and the effect of the the impact of generational stuff that gets passed down to us, which kinda ties into today’s episode as well. So Anyway, the question I want to pose an answer today is what to do when a loved one is not coping well with death in the family. And so this episode is though not going to be a tell you what to do when this happens. So the title of the podcast is kind of a a hook, if you will, to get you to listen to this because what I’m going to do instead is to package this episode as a lot of questions. And I think when we ask ourselves diaper questions? No. I don’t think I know. I know that when we ask ourselves deeper questions, we get deeper answers. And we often don’t wanna get those deeper answers because when we know it, We know it and we can’t unknow it. And we often have to face things within ourselves when we ask those deeper questions. You know, learning about my human design, which has nothing to do, with grief in this episode, but I’m just I’m going to share though what what has what I’ve learned about myself is that my superpower is asking questions, is being the questioner, I have the gate of doubt as my son, conscious son. And I am the natural skeptic, and I am the questioner. And I also have connectedness as one of my top five strengths in my u mab. And if you’re unfamiliar with human design or u mab, just check out my website, danleychart dot com, go under services, and you’ll see you map. You’ll see the grief work and and you won’t see human design on there, but that’s just a kind of a side thing I’m into. But anyway, my point in this episode is to bring to you questions for self reflection.
And I’m gonna start with this idea, number one. I mean, there’s three points I’m gonna cover today, but number one, is this idea of not coping well versus coping well. The second is looking at the relationship with that person who you deem is not coping well, quotation marks, coping well. And third, where our focus goes, our energy flows. So Number one, not coping well versus coping well. I just want you to reflect on yourself. Here and your own beliefs about grief. What were you raised to believe about grief? Was healthy coping, emulated for you as you were growing up? Did your parents And in your household, did you openly talk about grief? Did you openly talk about death and loss? I’ve recognized there are I mean, just in the podcast, four plus years of podcasting, there’s been very few guests who have shared that they openly talked about grief and loss. Usually, it was because the parent had worked in the death and dying industry. And, you know, as a mortician or something like that where grief was just at the forefront of their lives. And that’s not very common. What’s more common is that grief is kinda swept under the rug. We don’t talk about it. It that’s It’s why we have these societal issues around grief the way we do today. I think back when, way back when, we mourned differently than we do now. We mourned openly.
Women wore black for, I don’t know, how many days or weeks. As long as they needed to, perhaps, they took pictures with their deceased loved ones. They kept them in the home. Most people died in the home. The services were not left to a third party, you know, to handle all of the you know, the body and the logistics and all of that. Like, it was more of a community family involvement. Way back when. We’ve kind of removed ourselves from that death and dying process and being participants in that. And move towards stuffing down our grief, stuffing down our emotions, not talking about it, sweeping it out of the rug, giving all the power and agency to other people. Not having open conversations and dialogue about what we want, when we die, what our desires are. If we are encompensated. Like, we just don’t have these conversations. Right? And so I just wanna want you to ask yourself, Are you coping well? Because, you know, listening to the first ten episodes or so of this podcast If you haven’t, that’d be a great place to start too.
I talk a lot about what we talk about when I work with Grievers and Grief Recovery We tend to grieve alone. We tend to try and be strong for everyone else around us and for ourselves. We tend to keep busy, bury ourselves and work. Maybe we’re resorting to behaviors that make us feel better for a short period of time such as what we call them sturbs. Short term energy relieving behaviors where we might drink or exercise can be a stirb, shopping, gambling, things like that. Are you coping well? Are you doing those behaviors? Because if you are news flash, you may not be coping very well yourself. So then we project these ideas onto our loved ones who are not responding to death in the same way that we are. We’re thinking we might have our shit together and I’ve got this and we’re being strong for everybody else, but that’s not coping well.
That’s surviving. That’s not thriving. So the flip side of that, what does that look like? It means open dialogue. It means open communication.
It means sharing your feelings in a wrong authentic way. It means not apologizing for how you’re feeling. It means crying when you need to cry, not caring who sees it, openly grieving. And yes, we all do grief differently. We do grief differently, but in as a society, I think we all grieve similarly, and that’s in these ways I was describing. Not trying not to feel bad. You know, we tell people, don’t feel bad. Here’s the tissue. Stop you’re crying. Right?
We get uncomfortable when other people are crying around us or showing their emotions and so we want to shut them down like as it makes me uncomfortable. We replace the loss. You know, death of a friendship or a relationship or someone passes. We, you know, I I can get a new wife or a new husband or a new spouse or a new dog or a new cat or whatever it is, we replace the loss or maybe we’re replacing that loss with a disturb. Either way, we often replace the loss. Pour ourselves in our energy into something else to distract ourselves. And if things aren’t working well, well, we grieve alone because no one wants to hear about our loss a year from now, because we should be over it. Right? You should be over it by now. So the people saying that, you should be over it by now. How are they coping? And so I think there’s this false sense or idea that Internally, we believe we are coping well and these other people around us are not. But who defines what’s coking well? Who defines that? Do you define that as a retriever, as a fellow retriever in your family? And you maybe feel like you’re responding better than somebody else because why? Because your behaviors are not the same? Because you’re not pouring your heart out and talking about it because you’re, you know, being stoic and and maybe you have that German heritage, like I see so often in my area, and like I do in my family, where, you know, we’re strong. We don’t talk about it. Like, it’s, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry on. You can’t change it. Death comes, it happens to everybody. Minimizing it. Is that you? I don’t know how well you’re coping then either.
So I just want to highlight that who’s defining coping well versus not coping well. And just reflect on how you’re responding. And just because someone else in your family is responding differently doesn’t mean that they are not coping well in quotations. We can’t force people to grieve like we do. I have a tendency to I need space. I need to process my emotions first before I talk about them. To some people that may seem cold, that might come off as cold or detached. I just need time to process internally first before I can articulate what it is I’m feeling. And that takes time. And who’s to tell me how much time that should take? Right? Another aspect of this is that every relationship is unique. So because someone is responding differently than you, consider that their relationship is different than yours to the person who passed. You you might think that you were the closest person to that person who passed. But we never really know. We never really know. Okay. So secondly, coming back to the relationship with that person. Kind of piggypacking how relationships are unique. So Who is not coping well in quotations or choosing to respond to grief differently? The dynamics of the relationship can matter here. Right? So let’s say it’s a grandparent that’s dying. And a parent isn’t responding. You’re the grandchild and your parent isn’t responding how you would have expected or you would have thought or how you feel they should be. Right? And that can make you feel angry. That can make you feel sad. But we often don’t know the dynamics in the close relationship that, obviously, generations before us shared. Because, again, as society often is, we don’t talk about the good, the bad, and ugly. We talk about mostly the good and we sweep the bad and the ugly under the rug. We don’t talk about the painful stuff. We don’t talk about the, you know, maybe it was codependency in our relationship. Maybe we don’t talk about how, you know, maybe maybe that parent felt smothered by their by their parent, by your grandparent, or maybe they felt so loved and so close that the thought of that person dying, the thought of their parent dying is too painful, and so they completely detach. And that’s not a response you would expect.
You know, we can have painful responses to grief when it hits us, when we realize, when we accept this is what’s happening. I can’t control it. I can’t do anything about it. And so we can run Like often many people do, we choose to run from our emotions, resort to what we know from growing up, behaviors that we resorted to, to cope, when things got hard, or we can embrace the grief as a family, as a unit, and talk about these things, but we often don’t. Where there could be compassion and understanding, instead there’s resentment and anger and frustration and sadness, Sadness will be there regardless, but all these are the things wrapped in there. And this is why grief is so messy because relationships are unique. And we often don’t understand the depths of those relationships of the others in our lives. Of others in our lives. You know, if it’s a sibling that passes, you know, the parent had a different relationship with that sibling than you did, obviously. And maybe you were so close with that sibling, you detached. And your parent might think, well, maybe you don’t care. And maybe you have anger and resentment towards that sibling. And you just kind of bug out and not really around and not part of the family grieving process. And often that person might be it might be the thought would be, like, they’re not coping well. But if we don’t, we don’t have these skills. We aren’t taught these skills of how to cope well. That’s my point in this episode too is like we are not taught these skills of how to cope well with grief. We just aren’t. And so it’s like calling the kettle black. Right? That’s my point in this episode too. It’s like, it’s easy to say at someone else isn’t coping well, but yet if you have not received the coping skills, for grief and pain and suffering in your life. It’s very possible and very likely that the person that you’re feeling this way towards hasn’t either. And so the only way to get to the other side of this is to have the hard conversations with the people we love. We can’t force people to have these conversations, of course. And you can’t build from a place if there wasn’t you can’t have these conversations, if there wasn’t a a foundation of trust and safety either. And so maybe that’s where you can start. How do you cultivate trust and safety within yourself? And those closest to you. And that’s where Tiff Carson, I want you to listen to that episode because, you know, she chose to love her brother through his addiction. But she shares how she got to that point. It’s a really great episode that illustrates that. And the third point, energy flows where the focus goes. So again, if your focus is on this anger and this resentment towards someone else and how they’re responding to grief in in your family. And you’re ruminating on that. That is doing nothing. That is not helping. It’s unnecessary suffering for you because really the all you have say in is how you respond. That’s all you have control over is how you choose to respond to the grief in the family. Your own grief, your personal grief. And then how can you be a light? In the darkness that is family grief. Number one, you can learn these healthy coping skills. You can learn new tools to help you, thereby helping your loved ones. And you learn those new skills and those new tools and that new knowledge through great recovery. Through my through the program, do grief differently. It’s twelve weeks. And I do have two openings right now. If you are interested, go to my website to learn more. And we meet once weekly for twelve weeks. And it is very much it’s not therapy, but it’s very much therapeutic. Very therapeutic. And you will learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible about your grief, about drawing connections between your childhood and adulthood. Because, look, these things, these patterns of behavior, these belief patterns, these thoughts that we have around grief, these This is this is where we get generational things continuing on, these beliefs continuing through generations. And the only way to break that cycle and to learn new now is to learn new knowledge and new tools. Because if you are prone to sweeping your grief under the rug to not talking about it, to, you know, so easily pointing the finger at other people that they’re not responding this way and they’re not responding that way instead of looking at what it’s bringing up for you. What connections can you draw from what you’re feeling about the person who’s not coping as you think they should, what is that bringing up for you in particular? Why does that feel so painful for you? There’s something there. And so, again, this episode wasn’t to tell you what to do.
Although new knowledge is what I would suggest. Learn new knowledge. Educate yourself around grief so you better understand it. And then opening a dialogue and conversation amongst those you you love. To be the light. Ponder these questions. Start this episode, come back to it, share it. If you have further questions for me on this episode, please put them. There’s a on Spotify, you can actually respond to this episode. Put a question there if you want. Email me victoria down leashhart dot com. Share your thoughts on this episode or have or share your questions if you have them. I’ll privately answer them or I can, you know, with permission, I can share my the question and spots on this podcast for others so we can all learn. There’s always more to learn. And we learn within the context of our relationships too. And their mirrors for us, reflecting back what we need to look at within ourselves. So thank you so much for listening. My throat is getting dry. I’ve been talking a little too much already. And so that’s my cue to end it here and to thank you. And with gratitude in my heart, Thank you for listening, and I hope you listen to future episodes. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Q&A, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Let me support you in this week’s episode by guiding you through a journey of understanding grief—especially when someone close doesn’t seem to be handling a family death well. This isn’t just another conversation but an invitation for introspection and growth.
Key Highlights:
The episode is thoughtfully structured around three pivotal areas:
- Coping Perspectives: It challenges us to question societal grieving norms and consider what constitutes healthy coping.
- Relationship Dynamics: Every bond with the departed is unique.
- Energy & Focus Direction: Looking inward at our own healing rather than outward in judgment.
Open dialogue about grief within families can lead to personal healing and generational change. This isn’t easy, but it’s necessary for healthy healing to continue within family dynamics —and ultimately transform generational trauma and beliefs that are not in anyone’s highest good.
I invite you to engage further, ask probing questions about your own experiences with grief, and explore resources for guidance on this tender path.
This episode goes beyond mere discussion—it offers deep insights that may help you unlock something deep within that, perhaps, you’ve never realized before hearing this episode. If you find it helpful, please share this episode with someone you know and love, for it may unlock something for them, too. And who knows…it may be a catalyst for conversation as well. 💛
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Reflective Journey Through Grief
Grief is a labyrinthine journey, one that often feels isolating and incomprehensible. In the latest solo episode of Grieving Voices, this offers a lantern in the dark – not by showing you the way out but by illuminating the path within.
Coping Well or Not at All?
In society’s silent classrooms, we learn that grief should be quieted, endured stoically behind closed doors. I challegethese norms through self-reflection questions about our personal beliefs surrounding grief and coping mechanisms inherited from family dialogues—or lack thereof.
The Personal Tapestry of Relationships
Every relationship paints its unique hues onto the canvas of loss—no two connections are identical. Understanding this tapestry means acknowledging varied responses to death based on past dynamics or individual closeness with the deceased.
For instance, parental grieving can manifest diversely even under one roof; it’s essential to peer beneath surface assumptions into underlying relational complexities before forming judgments about someone’s process.
Where Does Your Energy Flow?
It’s easy to spiral into resentment when fixated on another’s way of handling loss—but what if we redirected that energy? Instead of outward critique, this is I advocate for inward reflection upon our own methods for navigating sorrow.
Constructive coping isn’t inherent—it must be cultivated like any skill set. To aid in this growth, “Do Grief Differently,” is a course designed to equip individuals with healthy tools for processing their pain.
Opening Dialogues for Healing
The closing message resonates deeply: healing starts when dialogue opens—not just externally but within ourselves as well—and education is key in transforming generational approaches toward bereavement.
With heartfelt gratitude towards her audience’s willingness to embark on such vulnerable reflections alongside her show’s mission—to change perceptions around grieving—I urge everyone towards introspective consideration and openness regarding their experiences with loss.
Listeners are left contemplating not only how they grieve but also how they can evolve those practices moving forward—for themselves and future generations alike.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of Greeting Voices. I am your host Victoria V. And it’s a solo episode, which I haven’t recorded one in quite some time, so I felt it was about time. But I wasn’t sure up until today, actually, as I’m recording this, what I was going to talk about.But there’s been some themes popping up la tely, and we’ve there’s been some losses in my community, really tragic deaths in my community. Friends dealing with certain things and conversations I’ve been having with guests on my podcast and in particular, if you haven’t listened to episode two zero seven with Tiff Carson from last week, that’s a great episode. She went very deep and it was just a really rich conversation. She was very vulnerable and it we were both crying. Just a really good episode to highlight the depths of grief and the effect of the the impact of generational stuff that gets passed down to us, which kinda ties into today’s episode as well.
Victoria Volk: So anyway, the question I want to pose an answer today is what to do when a loved one is not coping well with death in the family. And so this episode is though not going to be a tell you what to do when this happens. So the title of the podcast is kind of a a hook, if you will, to get you to listen to this because what I’m going to do instead is to package this episode as a lot of questions. And I think when we ask ourselves diaper questions? No. I don’t think I know. I know that when we ask ourselves deeper questions, we get deeper answers. And we often don’t wanna get those deeper answers because when we know it, We know it and we can’t unknow it. And we often have to face things within ourselves when we ask those deeper questions. You know, learning about my human design, which has nothing to do, with grief in this episode, but I’m just I’m going to share though what has what I’ve learned about myself is that my superpower is asking questions, is being the questioner, I have the gate of doubt as my son, conscious son. And I am the natural skeptic, and I am the questioner. And I also have connectedness as one of my top five strengths in my u mab. And if you’re unfamiliar with human design or Youmap, just check out my website, theunleashedheart.com, go under services, and you’ll see Youmap. You’ll see the grief work and you won’t see human design on there, but that’s just a kind of a side thing I’m into. But anyway, my point in this episode is to bring to you questions for self reflection. And I’m gonna start with this idea, number one. I mean, there’s three points I’m gonna cover today, but number one, is this idea of not coping well versus coping well.
Victoria Volk: The second is looking at the relationship with that person who you deem is not coping well, quotation marks, coping well. And third, where our focus goes, our energy flows. So Number one, not coping well versus coping well. I just want you to reflect on yourself. Here and your own beliefs about grief. What were you raised to believe about grief? Was healthy coping, emulated for you as you were growing up? Did your parents And in your household, did you openly talk about grief? Did you openly talk about death and loss? I’ve recognized there are I mean, just in the podcast, four plus years of podcasting, there’s been very few guests who have shared that they openly talked about grief and loss. Usually, it was because the parent had worked in the death and dying industry. And, you know, as a mortician or something like that where grief was just at the forefront of their lives. And that’s not very common.
Victoria Volk: What’s more common is that grief is kinda swept under the rug. We don’t talk about it. It that’s It’s why we have these societal issues around grief the way we do today. I think back when, way back when, we mourned differently than we do now. We mourned openly. Women wore black for, I don’t know, how many days or weeks. As long as they needed to, perhaps, they took pictures with their deceased loved ones. They kept them in the home. Most people died in the home. The services were not left to a third party, you know, to handle all of the you know, the body and the logistics and all of that. Like, it was more of a community family involvement. Way back when. We’ve kind of removed ourselves from that death and dying process and being participants in that. And move towards stuffing down our grief, stuffing down our emotions, not talking about it, sweeping it out of the rug, giving all the power and agency to other people. Not having open conversations and dialogue about what we want, when we die, what our desires are. If we are encompensated. Like, we just don’t have these conversations. Right?
Victoria Volk: And so I just wanna want you to ask yourself, Are you coping well? Because, you know, listening to the first ten episodes or so of this podcast If you haven’t, that’d be a great place to start too. I talk a lot about what we talk about when I work with Grievers and Grief Recovery We tend to grieve alone. We tend to try and be strong for everyone else around us and for ourselves. We tend to keep busy, bury ourselves and work. Maybe we’re resorting to behaviors that make us feel better for a short period of time such as what we call them sturbs. Short term energy relieving behaviors where we might drink or exercise can be a STERBS, shopping, gambling, things like that. Are you coping well? Are you doing those behaviors? Because if you are news flash, you may not be coping very well yourself. So then we project these ideas onto our loved ones who are not responding to death in the same way that we are. We’re thinking we might have our shit together and I’ve got this and we’re being strong for everybody else, but that’s not coping well. That’s surviving. That’s not thriving. So the flip side of that, what does that look like? It means open dialogue. It means open communication. It means sharing your feelings in a wrong authentic way. It means not apologizing for how you’re feeling. It means crying when you need to cry, not caring who sees it, openly grieving. And yes, we all do grief differently. We do grief differently, but in as a society, I think we all grieve similarly, and that’s in these ways I was describing.
Victoria Volk: Not trying not to feel bad. You know, we tell people, don’t feel bad. Here’s the tissue. Stop you’re crying. Right? We get uncomfortable when other people are crying around us or showing their emotions and so we want to shut them down like as it makes me uncomfortable. We replace the loss. You know, death of a friendship or a relationship or someone passes. We, you know, I I can get a new wife or a new husband or a new spouse or a new dog or a new cat or whatever it is, we replace the loss or maybe we’re replacing that loss with a disturb. Either way, we often replace the loss. Pour ourselves in our energy into something else to distract ourselves. And if things aren’t working well, well, we grieve alone because no one wants to hear about our loss a year from now, because we should be over it. Right? You should be over it by now. So the people saying that, you should be over it by now. How are they coping? And so I think there’s this false sense or idea that Internally, we believe we are coping well and these other people around us are not. But who defines what’s coking well? Who defines that? Do you define that as a retriever, as a fellow retriever in your family? And you maybe feel like you’re responding better than somebody else because why? Because your behaviors are not the same? Because you’re not pouring your heart out and talking about it because you’re, you know, being stoic and maybe you have that German heritage, like I see so often in my area, and like I do in my family, where, you know, we’re strong. We don’t talk about it. Like, it’s, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and carry on. You can’t change it. Death comes, it happens to everybody. Minimizing it. Is that you? I don’t know how well you’re coping then either.
Victoria Volk: So I just want to highlight that who’s defining coping well versus not coping well. And just reflect on how you’re responding. And just because someone else in your family is responding differently doesn’t mean that they are not coping well in quotations. We can’t force people to grieve like we do. I have a tendency to I need space. I need to process my emotions first before I talk about them. To some people that may seem cold, that might come off as cold or detached. I just need time to process internally first before I can articulate what it is I’m feeling. And that takes time. And who’s to tell me how much time that should take? Right? Another aspect of this is that every relationship is unique. So because someone is responding differently than you, consider that their relationship is different than yours to the person who passed. You might think that you were the closest person to that person who passed. But we never really know. We never really know. Okay.
Victoria Volk: So secondly, coming back to the relationship with that person. Kind of piggypacking how relationships are unique. So Who is not coping well in quotations or choosing to respond to grief differently? The dynamics of the relationship can matter here. Right? So let’s say it’s a grandparent that’s dying. And a parent isn’t responding. You’re the grandchild and your parent isn’t responding how you would have expected or you would have thought or how you feel they should be. Right? And that can make you feel angry. That can make you feel sad. But we often don’t know the dynamics in the close relationship that, obviously, generations before us shared. Because, again, as society often is, we don’t talk about the good, the bad, and ugly. We talk about mostly the good and we sweep the bad and the ugly under the rug. We don’t talk about the painful stuff. We don’t talk about the, you know, maybe it was codependency in our relationship. Maybe we don’t talk about how, you know, maybe maybe that parent felt smothered by their by their parent, by your grandparent, or maybe they felt so loved and so close that the thought of that person dying, the thought of their parent dying is too painful, and so they completely detach. And that’s not a response you would expect. You know, we can have painful responses to grief when it hits us, when we realize, when we accept this is what’s happening. I can’t control it. I can’t do anything about it.
Victoria Volk: And so we can run Like often many people do, we choose to run from our emotions, resort to what we know from growing up, behaviors that we resorted to, to cope, when things got hard, or we can embrace the grief as a family, as a unit, and talk about these things, but we often don’t. Where there could be compassion and understanding, instead there’s resentment and anger and frustration and sadness, Sadness will be there regardless, but all these are the things wrapped in there. And this is why grief is so messy because relationships are unique. And we often don’t understand the depths of those relationships of the others in our lives. Of others in our lives. You know, if it’s a sibling that passes, you know, the parent had a different relationship with that sibling than you did, obviously. And maybe you were so close with that sibling, you detached. And your parent might think, well, maybe you don’t care. And maybe you have anger and resentment towards that sibling. And you just kind of bug out and not really around and not part of the family grieving process. And often that person might be it might be the thought would be, like, they’re not coping well. But if we don’t, we don’t have these skills. We aren’t taught these skills of how to cope well. That’s my point in this episode too is like we are not taught these skills of how to cope well with grief. We just aren’t. And so it’s like calling the kettle black. Right?
That’s my point in this episode too. It’s like, it’s easy to say at someone else isn’t coping well, but yet if you have not received the coping skills, for grief and pain and suffering in your life. It’s very possible and very likely that the person that you’re feeling this way towards hasn’t either.
Victoria Volk: And so the only way to get to the other side of this is to have the hard conversations with the people we love. We can’t force people to have these conversations, of course. And you can’t build from a place if there wasn’t you can’t have these conversations, if there wasn’t a a foundation of trust and safety either. And so maybe that’s where you can start. How do you cultivate trust and safety within yourself? And those closest to you. And that’s where Tiff Carson, I want you to listen to that episode because, you know, she chose to love her brother through his addiction. But she shares how she got to that point. It’s a really great episode that illustrates that. And the third point, energy flows where the focus goes. So again, if your focus is on this anger and this resentment towards someone else and how they’re responding to grief in in your family. And you’re ruminating on that. That is doing nothing. That is not helping. It’s unnecessary suffering for you because really the all you have say in is how you respond. That’s all you have control over is how you choose to respond to the grief in the family. Your own grief, your personal grief. And then how can you be a light? In the darkness that is family grief. Number one, you can learn these healthy coping skills. You can learn new tools to help you, thereby helping your loved ones.
Victoria Volk: And you learn those new skills and those new tools and that new knowledge through great recovery. Through my through the program, do grief differently. It’s twelve weeks. And I do have two openings right now. If you are interested, go to my website to learn more. And we meet once weekly for twelve weeks. And it is very much it’s not therapy, but it’s very much therapeutic. Very therapeutic. And you will learn more about yourself than you ever thought possible about your grief, about drawing connections between your childhood and adulthood. Because, look, these things, these patterns of behavior, these belief patterns, these thoughts that we have around grief, these This is where we get generational things continuing on, these beliefs continuing through generations.
Victoria Volk: And the only way to break that cycle and to learn new now is to learn new knowledge and new tools. Because if you are prone to sweeping your grief under the rug to not talking about it, to, you know, so easily pointing the finger at other people that they’re not responding this way and they’re not responding that way instead of looking at what it’s bringing up for you. What connections can you draw from what you’re feeling about the person who’s not coping as you think they should, what is that bringing up for you in particular? Why does that feel so painful for you? There’s something there.
Victoria Volk: And so, again, this episode wasn’t to tell you what to do. Although new knowledge is what I would suggest. Learn new knowledge. Educate yourself around grief so you better understand it. And then opening a dialogue and conversation amongst those you you love. To be the light. Ponder these questions. Start this episode, come back to it, share it. If you have further questions for me on this episode, please put them. There’s a on Spotify, you can actually respond to this episode. Put a question there if you want. Email me [email protected]. Share your thoughts on this episode or have or share your questions if you have them. I’ll privately answer them or I can, you know, with permission, I can share my the question and spots on this podcast for others so we can all learn. There’s always more to learn. And we learn within the context of our relationships too. And their mirrors for us, reflecting back what we need to look at within ourselves. So thank you so much for listening. My throat is getting dry. I’ve been talking a little too much already. And so that’s my cue to end it here and to thank you. And with gratitude in my heart, thank you for listening, and I hope you listen to future episodes. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the quiet rustle of leaves and the gentle caress of a mountain breeze, Tiff Carson found an unexpected sanctuary. A portable chair became her throne as she nestled amidst nature’s embrace—mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans—in Victoria and Vancouver to weave tales not just with words but with her soul.
The waves whispered secrets and memories to Tiff; they took away bits of sorrow each time they retreated back into the ocean’s depths. It was here that she learned writing could be more than a craft—it was therapy.
“Give yourself grace,” an advice once enigmatic now resonated deeply within her being. On some days, grief clung like morning dew on grass blades – heavy and visible; on others, it receded quietly into shadowed corners of her mind. Through this oscillation between pain and peace, self-compassion became Tiff’s mantra.
Her voice rose above the stigma often shrouding mental health discussions as she advocated for open dialogue about generational trauma while highlighting how critical parental apologies are in healing old wounds.
Takeaways on this episode:
- Sibling grief is often overlooked but carries profound significance throughout one’s life.
- Early traumatic events can set individuals onto difficult paths; understanding these origins is crucial for empathy and support.
- Transparent communication about emotional pain within families is essential for collective healing.
Join me as we delve into these poignant topics that remind us all that while our journeys may be hard at times, they are also filled with beauty when approached with openness and vulnerability.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Echoes of Sibling Grief and the Power of Voice
Grief is a universal experience, yet it remains one of the most isolating journeys we can embark on. Tiff Carson, an Alberta-based author, podcast host, and speaker, understands this dichotomy all too well. Through her personal narrative involving sibling grief, trauma, and mental health challenges, Tiff sheds light on how our earliest experiences with loss shape us in profound ways.
Childhood Trauma: A Silent Specter
Tiff’s first encounter with grief was not through the passing of a family member but rather through a beloved pet dog named Mitzi who met an untimely death due to poisoning by a neighbor. This event was more than just a childhood tragedy; it became the inception point for Tiff and her brother’s journey through sorrow—a path that would diverge wildly as they grew older.
In many families like Tiff’s, discussing emotions is often seen as taboo—especially for men. This cultural norm meant suppressing feelings became second nature to them. But emotional suppression has long-term effects; it doesn’t erase pain but instead allows it to fester unacknowledged.
Adulthood: Struggles With Emotional Expression
Transitioning into adulthood brought new awareness for Tiff about these ingrained habits. She recounts her struggle to stop apologizing for showing emotions—a habit rooted deep in her upbringing where vulnerability equated weakness.
Her brother Corey took another route entirely; his gentle nature clashed against their culture of emotional stoicism. His story serves as a cautionary tale about what happens when unresolved traumas are left unchecked—he turned towards addiction at an early age because he didn’t have healthier outlets or support systems available.
Uncovering Hidden Pain
A move during their childhood isolated them further from others which eventually led to Corey enduring violent episodes with their father—an incident that remained hidden until years later. These traumatic events had far-reaching consequences leading Corey down a path marred by addiction struggles and legal issues before tragically losing his life to a fentanyl overdose in 2021.
The violence inflicted upon him by their father wasn’t just physical—it was verbal too—words that acted like daggers shaping Corey’s self-perception negatively throughout his life.
Healing Through Vulnerability
Through confronting these painful memories and dynamics within her own family unit—including learning about Corey’s buried traumas only after she faced mental health struggles herself—Tiff emphasizes the importance of addressing conflicts openly and expressing emotions without shame or guilt.
She advocates strongly for parental apologies as catalysts for healing hurtful interactions between parents and children—the act itself demonstrating vulnerability that strengthens relationships while teaching valuable lessons about accountability.
Even amid estrangement caused by differing views on accountability within families—as shown by her father’s refusal to acknowledge his role in Cory’s trauma—Tiff holds out hope for reconciliation through open dialogue underpinned by understanding each other’s vulnerabilities; essential steps toward mending generational wounds.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is, you’re listening to this episode. Thank you for being here. My guest today is Tiff Carson. She is a passionate and inspiring author, podcast host and speaker based in Alberta, Canada. She has the unique perspective of having lived through her own complex journey of sibling grief, trauma, and mental health issues. Tiff believes when you use your voice, you create positive change for yourself and the world around you. Tiff’s goal is to inspire others by showing how she used her voice to heal. As a devoted mother of three children, TIFF is an advocate for breaking cycles of generational pain so that future generations can live healthier lives. She reminds us all that no matter what our journey looks like, it can be hard but also beautiful. Thank you so much for being here.
Tiff Carson: Thank you for having me
Victoria Volk: and for being open to sharing your story on my podcast because I know you have a podcast which is called
Tiff Carson: hard beautiful journey. And you’ve written a book called dancing in the rain,
Victoria Volk: which is not even in your bio.
Tiff Carson: Book title anyway.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So I just wanted to pop that in here at the beginning here, and we’ll come we’ll circle back to that where people can find you and all of that at the end. But in your information that you shared with me, you you talk about the memoir and your a lot of your focus about the grief story that you wanted to share was about your brother. But what I know about grief personally and just all the stories that people have shared with me is that our grief tends to start pretty early on in our lives, in childhood. And you haven’t shared really any of that so much.
I mean, I’m sure your brother’s story has a little bit to do with that. I mean, if there’s an age gap, things like that.
Tiff Carson: But Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: What was your experience with grief as a child?
Tiff Carson: Well, the the ones that stick out for me, for sure, are my grandparents. That is Actually, before that, I lost a dog that was very, very, very big part of our family. And it was actually poisoned by one of our neighbors that absolutely despised dogs And so we were my brother and I are eighteen months apart, and then we have a younger sister that’s six years younger than me. So my brother and I were about seven and eight years old approximately, and it was our job to let our dog out. In the morning before school and to feed her. Her name was Mitsi. And and just do all the things with the dog. If we were gonna have this dog, we were responsible for it and which we loved. And so one morning, my brother let her out, took her outside, but then he came back in to finish getting ready for school. And then when he went to call her in, she was walking really really slow into the house.
And he was, like, calling for me and my mom and And so we went and right in our very back porch. She walked in the door and she literally collapsed and just died, like, right in front of our eyes. And so that was the first real like, what the heck happened and just the devastation of losing our little girl. And that was yeah, I can’t even describe how devastating it was for my brother too. Like, he was super, super close to her. He always was close with all of the dogs that he’s sewn in his life. So that was I would say that was our first big grief moment and trauma that we experienced. And then of course losing our grandparents and and seeing them deteriorate over the years and not really be themselves like some of them ended up with dementia or a form of dementia and so seeing them go from, you know, your grandparents like you knew them to not really being that was was definitely a difficult thing for us to experience. So, yeah, those were were the ones growing up for sure.
Victoria Volk: I was told to growing up that. I was too little to remember, but we had a dog that was supposedly had been poisoned too.
Tiff Carson: Oh, really? Yeah. It’s awful. It was it wasn’t just our dog. Like, it was they actually ended up having to call the police this family, this couple because they they were doing it to numerous dogs in the neighborhood. And ours was one of them. And then my parents went and got, this is crazy. So before that police were called, my parents, we waited they waited a few months for us to, you know, get used to, like, just go through the grief and stuff, and then they ended up getting another dog for us. We named her ginger. And same thing happened. But we got her to the vet before, and we brought her home, and she ran away. She was like, yeah, no. I’m not staying here. I’m not dealing with that. So, yeah, it was losing the dog and then getting another one and then her running away. And after that, we didn’t get another dog for a while. So I laugh now, but at the time it was like, this is not very good. This is sad.
Victoria Volk: So how was grief talked about in your home as growing up?
Tiff Carson: It wasn’t. Like ever. Ever. I saw my mom cry a lot growing up. But never my dad, never ever. I never saw my grandparents cry or show grief of any kind. The first time I saw my grandma cry and Joe Grieve was actually at my uncle, her son’s funeral. He passed away tragically. In a farming accident, and that was the first time I saw her outwardly grieve. And I was probably about twenty five years old then. So, like, it was it was just not shown whatsoever. It was sniff upper lip and hold it all in and be tough and that’s it. The the boys, the men were definitely held to that standard a lot more than the girls. I noticed that and I wrote about it in my book is be tough, suck it up, beat your your boy, your man. You know, those kind of words were were said. But I also saw it from the women. So it was definitely not as open to talk about the hard things as as it is now.
Victoria Volk: What impact did that have on you as you went into adulthood and experience more grief as we do in life? And and how did you see that? Maybe your brother handled it differently or did things differently from you? Like, how did you see that dynamic play out? Learning not learning about courage, right, and not talking about it, the impact that that had on each of you?
Tiff Carson: My brother was very I call him a gentle giant. He was always very open with his feelings towards certain people. And showed his emotions. Same with me. Like, I I definitely showed my emotions, but when it came to grief and I actually still catch myself doing it sometimes where I’ll start to cry and I’ll say, sorry, Sorry.
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. You know, and I don’t know how many times in the last even week where I’ll cry and I’ll start to say that. And then I’m like, no, I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry. And it’s taken I’m almost fifty. And it’s taken almost fifty years for me to stop apologizing for showing emotion and being okay with it. So it it’s definitely been a difficult thing to just get past the I don’t know if it’s embarrassment or or the shame of being vulnerable. I don’t know. But in the last two years, definitely since my brother passed away, I’m learning to just say screw it. Like, I’m I’m okay. With you seeing this. And I am not a pretty cryer whatsoever. And I’m definitely okay with people seeing the real me and what I’m going through and what I’m experiencing because it’s giving them the freedom, I guess, the courage to do the same thing.
Victoria Volk: What’s your brother’s name? Corey, he talked about, you know, his struggle with addiction and things like that in your in the information you shared with me. When did those things start to come to light? How old were you? And I recognized you’re only eighteen months apart. My oldest two my oldest is a son and then I have a daughter and they’re eighteen months apart. Mhmm. And I I’m reading this book right now. The author will be coming on the podcast. It’s called always a sibling, and she talks about her brother passing. But what I never really connected or thought about until reading her book was that the relationship that we have with our siblings is the longest relationship we will have with anybody. Even if that person is not in your life, it’s still there’s still an emotional bond there. Of some sort, whether it be healthier or unhealthy, there’s still that connection. And it’s the longest connection. And I personally, I think sometimes your siblings, they know more about you than anybody else because they’ve seen you through your entire life. Right? Really into the music. Yeah. So feel free to share what you wanna share about that. And
Tiff Carson: well, the tears are already starting. So It’s okay. Wow. So, yeah, he was eighteen months older than me. I wrote about that in my book as well about the sibling relationship and sibling grief just in general. That it’s under recognized. Everybody definitely reverts to the parents first, which absolutely understand that as a mom. Absolutely understand that. And then if it’s, you know, an older person, like they revert to the wife and the kids of that person. But there’s very, very few people that actually ask how you’re doing as the sibling of somebody who’s passed away and they were the closest person to you growing up for many years.
Right? And there’s lots of times where you have many siblings. So it just compounds. Right? So I definitely wanted to bring that to late in my book.
So he was eighteen months older than me, and we literally literally were attached at the hip. Growing up. Like, there’s this many pictures, but there’s this one picture. We had, like, white white white hair big blue eyes and, like, if you saw one, there was the other one right beside. And we just we lived in a small town We went everywhere together. We did everything together. And he was my best buddy. And then my sister was born when he was seven and I was six. And so she was like our little baby doll and it was just awesome having a new little sibling and but we were still connected, like super connected. We did lip synch concerts together.
We we did everything. And then we moved a few times. My dad is a musician, was a musician. And so wherever he was playing the most, in his band, we would kinda like move into that area. So we moved a few times. Usually between two locations, And the one move the one last move before everything changed was very, very hard on him and I, my brother and I, because we moved to a farm. And we were not farmers at all. And it was very isolating for us. And we we were very social kids, like we in the house the neighborhood we lived in before, moving to the farm, we were Like, there was just the neighborhood gang. Like, you know what I mean?
Like, the big neighborhood gang of kids, we would just play hide and seek and we wouldn’t we wouldn’t come home till, like, ten at night and just we would be with our friends all the time, and then we were on a farm. And it was like, what where are we? Why are we here? And it was it was a really big adjustment for us in a lot of ways. And something happened when my brother was thirteen living on that farm that I didn’t know about until three years before he died. And but something happened to me around the same time from my brother. My brother beat me up. To uphold in our kitchen on the farm. And I had no idea why, like zero idea. It just came out of nowhere and because him and I were super close. And then all of a sudden, he beat me up. And I was terrified of him after that, and I didn’t know what happened. And then, what happened after that? He used to be or that happened. He was a very talented hockey player, very good athlete. Like, he was being looked at by lots of people because he was just so good, so fast, the goal score. And then all of a sudden, like that, it just changed. And he we call it I call it in my book. He started running. He just he was he just didn’t want to be anywhere near us, nowhere near our family. He was getting into trouble. He was doing DNEs. He was getting into fights. He was he got some assault charges and it literally from thirteen till he was twenty seven. He was in and out of jail, he was constantly in trouble with the law. And that’s when he started getting addicted to drugs and alcohol. And so him beating me up and then going the direction that he was I didn’t understand why he was doing that and why that happened. And it just made this huge wedge between us. And I was so angry at him for doing what I thought he was doing to my parents and like just not just not being a good kid and like, why are you doing this? So he went one direction and I literally went the other.
And I was like, because around town in this small community that we lived in, our last name is Carson. So he would they would say, oh, that Carson kid. Oh, that Carson kid. Just like his dad, that carson kid. Right? And so, like, that was what I heard around town and I made it my mission to not be another Carson kid. I was gonna be a different Carson kid. And so he went that direction and I went to the overachiever. Like, I am going to show you all that I am not like him, and that has literally moved in to my life in so many ways. Like, it just I’m an overachiever still to this day. And so Yeah. That that’s how the the addiction came around was at that time of his life, and it it continued on for the rest of his life until he passed away and he passed away of a of a fentanyl overdose in twenty twenty one.
Victoria Volk: One change. Right?
Tiff Carson: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We never know what’s gonna change the trajectory of our lives. Yep. We’re just, you know, in the the ripples of the decisions that we make as parents. Right? And the impact that that has. And cause and effect has been something that’s really come up a lot for me lately. We learn that concept as young children, you know, you touch the burner, the hot burner on the stove, you’re gonna get burned. Right? Nope. There’s a cause and effect. No. Now I’m not gonna touch the burner because I’m gonna get my hand burned. But we never really why that same principle to our lives really. We don’t think about the impact of our words. We don’t think about, you know, the cause and effect. Of our words and our actions and our choices and our decisions and how that affects everybody else in our lives. Mhmm. Are you open to sharing? What what it was that he was projecting so much of his anger out? On you and the rest of the family and
Tiff Carson: Yeah. It’s I wrote about it in a book and And it’s amazing how when these things happen, how it is a learning lesson for me now as a parent and how it’s changed by parenting. It was something that happened between my dad and my brother. So my sister and I and my mom had gone out of town for a few days. And my brother stayed home with my dad to help him around the farm and my dad was playing in the band in the town that we lived in, and he asked my brother to stay home and not go out. But my brother, like I said, he hated the farm. He hated the isolation. He hated it with a passion. And So he got on his bike, and he rode his bike to a nearby community where some of his friends live. And he got a ride home from some people with his bike, and the lights were off when he got home. So he thought he got home before my dad did. And when he went in the house, the lights came on. That’s my dad’s m l’s sitting in the dark because that’s what his parents did. And the lights came on and my dad was there and From what my brother has told me and my mom and a trauma therapist, he pummeled him. He beat him into oblivion where he could hardly even walk up the stairs to his bedroom. And when he got up the next morning, he said that my dad didn’t even bat an eye when he saw his black eyes. And he said that my dad said if you’re not going to respect what I have to say and listen to me, then you can just leave. I’ll pay you and you can just leave. And, yeah, when I it looks like So I’ve done this so three years before he died from my mom. And literally as she was telling me this story. At first, I was like, there’s no way my dad did that. There’s no way. Like I I just instantly went to denial. But in my soul, it was like she was handing the puzzle piece. Like, here you go. Because not long after that happened to my brother, my brother beat me up. And he was so angry at me and my little sister for not getting the same treatment as him. And literally, that’s when he started running. He was like, hey, he doesn’t want me here, so I’m just gonna go. I’m gonna go. I’m gonna run. He told me to leave. So that’s what happened. There was another incident couple years actually before that that he actually got severely beaten by my grandpa in front of all of us. So a lot of a lot of physical violence where he felt like he wasn’t loved by the male, influences in his life, and that’s very, very devastating to the foundation of a boy. But why I say that’s a lesson for me now is parenting is so hard. All three of my kids were IVF, babies. It took ten years to get them. Ten very long years to get them, and all three of them were diagnosed with ADHD and ODD. Oppositional defiant disorder. And so they have been a very difficult parenting journey, very difficult. So I get the the difficulty of parenting to my core. Like, I get it. And even with the difficulties and things that are said or done in the heat of a moment when you’re angry, when you’re upset, all of that. The thing that I’ve learned from all of this from my brother’s journey is that how you handle the after. How you handle when you’ve done or said something that could have hurt somebody else, like your children, Take the time you need. First, take the time you need to decompress and or walk away or breathe or something. But then come back and actually have a conversation with them. And I have done that so many times since I’ve learned about my brother’s drama. And I know it is making a difference with my kids and my relationship with them. Because I I, like, I wrote about it in a book. There was one morning where my boys were just so so disrespectful for to me, we are on our way to a doctor’s appointment for for one of them and They weren’t listening, they weren’t talking back. It was just it was a horrible morning. And I said the same things my dad did. I said, if you’re not gonna listen to me, then you’re not gonna live here. Get out of my house. I said the same words my dad did. And I went into my room to get ready, and I was so mad at myself. I was so mad that I chose those words to say to my kids, but I also gave myself grace that you know, this is hard. And I came out of the room and they were balling, like getting on their backpacks and trying to get their shoes on, and they were crying. And one of my boys said, you’re the worst mom ever who tells their kids to leave And the other one was looking at me with, like, literally tears streaming down his face. He’s like, where are we supposed to go? I don’t know where we’re supposed to go. And like just balling. And we get in the car.
And before I started driving, I just turned they were sitting in the back and I turned around and I just said, I am so sorry for what I said to you. I didn’t mean what I said. But I want you to know why I said it and why I got to that point because this was going on. And I said, but I never should have send those words to you, and I hope that you forgive me. And both of them were just like, we’re so sorry, mom.
Like, we know what we were doing was not Right? And and one of my boys said, you know, mom, it’s okay if people cry. Like, I know it is, buddy. And it’s okay if you cry right now too, and he started crying again. And then my other boy, their twins.
He said, yeah, who cares if people see it and say anything? So I was just like, good for you, like, good for recognizing that. There is nothing wrong with showing vulnerability. And since that day, I that’s what I do. If there’s something that has come up and there’s something that was hurtful, I address it sooner than later because all my dad had to do all he had to do was say, sorry, That’s it.
That is it. And it would have changed their whole relationship. So all it takes is I’m sorry. We were both Ryan.
Victoria Volk: How old are your children?
Tiff Carson: Fifteen year old daughter and eleven year old twin boys.
Victoria Volk: I recently listened to a meditation that has you imagining your inner child? That’s hard. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, what would you say to your younger self, you know? Mhmm. And I, like, feel this, like, for your brother, like this, sadness of not feeling wanted It’s that indifference. I think that’s almost I don’t know if it’s worse. They say in psychology, they say it’s worse. Like, Yeah.
Tiff Carson: Yeah. So when I learned about his trauma, Well, in all of these things, but there’s even more, but those are the that’s the big ones or some of the big ones. But it it it was I literally because I was going through my own mental health challenges with my, like, going through in in fertility and our kids and I I had a complete mental breakdown. And it was around the same time where I learned about this. And I was walking on a beach in North Carolina. I went to a mom’s retreat, and I was walking on a beach in North Carolina, and I just walking by myself and I was like, k. If I can give myself grace and love myself with all of this stuff that I’m going through, I absolutely can give my brother that same, and because he’s experienced way more than me. And I wrote this in the book. I chose to love him through it. Everything that he was going through, everything that he was still experiencing with his addictions, which had not gone away.
They were getting worse. And for those who have known an addict, had a family member that’s an addict, it is a very difficult relationship. Very and so me choosing to love him through it. Was a huge step. It was huge just based on everything that had happened over the years. But when I tell you, it’s quite good. When I made that decision, he could feel it. He could actually feel the change. He could feel it in how I looked at him, how I talked to him, how I just sat with him, how everything everything changed when I made that decision, to love him through it. And our relationship was immediately back to when we were little kids. Immediately because he could feel it, I could feel it, and then it’s, like, I need to be there for you. I’m gonna be there for you, and I’m never gonna leave you. And, yeah, I’m just I’m so grateful that he chose to use his voice. He was the one who told my mom about what happened to him because none of us knew. None of us knew what happened to him and why his life went that way. And he chose to tell my mom, and then my mom chose to tell me. And if he wouldn’t have done that, we wouldn’t have gotten to where we were before he died. And so he he gave me the biggest gift. All of us the biggest gift by sharing what what happened to him and being vulnerable. I have no regrets now with how our relationship was when he passed away because it was beautiful.
Victoria Volk: Where is your dad and all of those?
Tiff Carson: My dad just read the book recently. During the three years when I found out about what happened, I had a hard time understanding him. I didn’t and still have never stopped loving my dad because he’s my dad. And like I said, I understand the challenges of parenting and I I give him grace and all of that. Right? But but I still have a really hard time with him not accepting and admitting and acknowledging the pain and the trauma that changed my brother’s life. My dad will not acknowledge it. And he will go to his grave with not fully acknowledging what was done, what was said, and that’s heartbreaking. His stance. I just talked to him two weeks ago about it because he was very angry at me for the book even though I asked him repeatedly for his side of the story repeatedly asked him for his side. Because there is always two sides. And he just says it’s the way that they were raised, and he my brother was not behaving was not listening. And my brother was out of control and all of this kind of stuff. And I can’t change his mind. I can’t make him acknowledge anything, and I I have to come to peace with that. Or I won’t have a relationship with my dad either. But I am very okay with me sitting in the hard and talking things out and just saying, okay, this is where we’re at. I know your mat like, I went and saw them two weeks ago, and you could tell he was very angry at me, very and he was just gonna I call it sweeping it under the rug. He was just gonna sleep it under the rug, like nothing. Not talking about it. And he was sitting on one of their swings. Like, it’s a two seater. And I just said, so may I come and sit beside you? And he’s like, sure. So I went and sat beside him and and I just I was vulnerable and I just said, okay.
Let’s talk about it. You’re obviously upset with me for what I wrote, so let’s let’s talk. And so he wasn’t going to it first, and then he did, and he was upset with what I wrote and wish that he would’ve I would’ve given I would’ve asked him his side of the story. I’m like, pretty sure I did many times. And that I didn’t talk about my mom’s side of the family in the book? Just his side? And I was trying to explain to him that that none of the things that happened to me and my brother happened at the hands of my mom’s family. So talking about my mom’s family’s issues, wouldn’t have related to my brother and I in our journey. So yeah, I understand that I talked about the Carson side, but that’s because stuff happened with the Carson side. That changed our relationship and changed people’s lives. And when I talk about I didn’t wanna be a Carson kid, I went through a divorce two years ago. It was just made official in May of this year. And I have been working tirelessly to get my name back. To be a Carson. And I told him, I wouldn’t be doing this. If I didn’t love the cars to pick me because it’s not easy. To go back to your maid and maid here in Canada anyways. And I said that’s how much I love the Carson family. I just don’t love some of the things that happened in the Carson family. So that’s kind of where our relationship is at right now. It’s strained, but I’m okay with that. Because It took a year and a half to write this book. And there was many times where I almost stopped writing. And I kept hearing no. Keep going. Keep going. Put it all in. Put it all in. And I know. How many people that’s helping already, and that’s worth it to me.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to the cause and effect. And perhaps maybe you don’t see yet how this may unlock something for your father. Credit. You know, it’s again, you you kinda touched on it on the information you shared, but this generational trauma, the generational belief systems, and the generational patterns, and we, I think, subconsciously, pass on to our kids unintentionally.
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And clearly, there is something your dad is holding on to.
Tiff Carson: Oh, yes. And it’s in the book as well. The things that my dad experienced.
Victoria Volk: Oh, so you know?
Tiff Carson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Tiff Carson: It’s in the book as well. Not in great detail, but it was more so at the hands of his mom than his dad. He actually went to live with his grandparents because it was such a bad relationship. He says it was also because they didn’t have enough room. There were all of the kids. There were six kids. It was a small house. His grandparents lived across the street. He’s like, I’m just gonna go live there. But there was times where he lived or stayed at the church with the nuns. It was yeah. He he had a very very hard upper need as well. This violence and and, like I said, sweeping things under the rug. We’re not talking about it. We are not talking about it. We are not dealing with this. Nothing happened. My grandma, my dad’s mom, had many mental health challenges. There was many times where she wouldn’t come out of her room. And they had to fend for themselves. So a lot of stuff and he’s just choosing to not go there. And and that’s his choice. And I I cannot that’s what I’ve come to realize is I cannot force anybody to do their own work, but I can do my own. And I’m going to continue doing my own and showing other people how I’m doing the work on myself and if it inspires them to do the same, fantastic. But I I cannot force anybody anymore. All I can do is my own thing, my own work.
Victoria Volk: You shared how you decided that you were going to love your brother. Through it. Have you given any thought to what that would look like if you chose to do that with your father?
Tiff Carson: I have chosen to load him through it. Actually, when I found out that he had read it, and that he was angry at me. At first, my initial reaction, knee jerk reaction was, like, Well, screw you. Like, you you know, like, I was just angry back at him. And that was that only last maybe a day. And but I was very angry at him for some of the things that he was saying to me and then I actually heard I I hear my brother often, his spirit. And I I heard him say, Love them through it. Love them through it. And I made the decision two weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago. I’m gonna love them through it because I kid. He was a little boy too. That experience and really hard things. And that’s my generational trauma is hard. And But my my whole goal, my whole purpose, I know, is to shine a light on it. And do like, what I’m doing with my kids is let’s talk about this stuff let’s work through it. Let’s stop sweeping stuff under the rug. Let’s get to a place where Your heart is okay. Before we move on. Because I’ve seen what it’s done to my dad, and I’ve seen what it’s done to my brother. And I don’t want that for my kids. I don’t want that for your kids. I don’t want that for anybody’s kids because I lived with it. And I wouldn’t want anybody’s life to play out the way that my brothers did in some respects. He did have many good moments in his life. But the hard parts, I wouldn’t want that for anybody. Because it was very, very, very difficult for him.
Victoria Volk: There is this thought that I think in psychology that young girls, women tend to marry someone like their father. That can be good or bad. Right? Had you married someone who had those qualities like your father?
Tiff Carson: That’s a interesting question. In some respects, yes, and then some no. My ex husband, who’s a very good father in terms of, like, always wanting to do stuff with them and is very active in their lives. And but he’s also a non talker. Let’s see. There is nothing to see here, folks. That’s not, like, what? You wanna talk? Oh, no. Okay. So, like, those kind of similarities are definitely there. And that was hard for me, especially over the last ten, eight, to ten years as I was, like, starting to, like, you know, I need to talk about this stuff or I’m gonna neither this is not gonna end well. And I wasn’t getting any any of it back and returned. And that was very difficult on our marriage for sure.
Victoria Volk: With the diagnosis of the children. I imagine that that brought up a lot of feelings from the past. Of the anger that you witnessed in the home. Did so did you have this I mean, did you have this United Front with your spouse to work through those struggles? Or do you feel like those were some of the things that your marriage just couldn’t. Where you couldn’t come together?
Tiff Carson: No. The so we we tried for five years before we ended up finally getting our daughter after we were married. But we started the fertility process one year after we were married because you have to wait the year here in Canada. If it’s not working. And he was very supportive in that whole journey to the point where my body actually was they they said that it was I was thirty How old was I thirty one ish at thirty thirty one when I started the fertility program, and my body was acting like mid forties. It just was not. It wasn’t doing what they thought it was going to do. I was on the highest dose possible of in fertility of IVF drugs. And I was still not producing follicles like I should have been there was one point where there was so much blood work and so many ultrasound that my husband ended up not going to all of them just because there were so many. But on this one particular day, he decided to come. He said, no, I’m gonna come with you. And if he didn’t come that day, we wouldn’t have our daughter. Because they did their normal blood work and ultrasound, and then they they normally you just go home and go back a couple days later. But this day, they said, Kate, we need you to meet across the room in that boardroom. And I knew it was not good. And the doctors came in and nurses and they said, so it’s not looking good for this cycle. You’re not producing enough molecules at this point where you should be, and you either can stop the cycle now and wait about three months because you have to wait for your system to get back to a little bit of normalcy. Or we keep going and we try for the best and see if there’s any changes in the next couple of days. And I was so exhausted because this was our second second attempt at In vitro. And we had already done all of the other stuff, like IUI’s intrauterine and semination stuff.
We had already done all of those. And I was gonna just say no more. I’m done. And James, my ex husband said, no, we’re going. We’re gonna keep going.
And I just I know it’s gonna work. We’re gonna keep going. And we got three follicles and we got enough embryos and my daughter. It happened. We got our daughter. So he was definitely a rock for me during all of that. When we got when we had her, it was, like, the biggest blessing in the world. And then but we didn’t have any more embryos left. And so if we were gonna do it again, we’d have to start all over again. And it’s very expensive. And we just we’re happy with having her daughter. And I don’t know what about when she was three years old, we started talking again and said, do you wanna try it again? And his parents loaned us the money, and we started again. And this time, I don’t know if, like, things cleared up down there or what, but it went better than the first time. And we ended up with Twin Boys. And so it was but it was hard. It was ten years. So there’s four and a half years between our daughter and our sons. And but it’s very hard on a marriage. In the respect that you you have the expectation that your bodies are supposed to do these things. Naturally, that your failure if you don’t. And him and I are both extreme high achievers my overachiever tendency came flying through, and it was just very hard to wrap my head around the back that I couldn’t become a mom the natural way. And it was for him too. Like, there was many times where he would say something off the cuff, like, Yeah. Well, like, I’m not able to have a kid normally, like, everybody else and and, like, a man going in and doing that thing and in a fertility clinic is not romantic for one thing. What’s leverage? So, yeah, it’s very hard on marriages, very difficult on marriages. And them to go through that journey of just trying to get them here. And then to have the parenting struggles that we’ve had with them, that’s when I I had my my mental breakdown. I was just so so angry as God. I remember hiding behind the clothes in my closet, hiding from my kids, because I was so done. I was just done with everything. And I just said, why why? Did it take ten years to get them for us to not enjoy, be able to do them? Because it was not enjoyable whatsoever. And while I was saved in that closet, I saw a fork, like a fork in the road. In my mind, I saw it for it. And it was checkout. I completely checkout. I’m like, as in not be here anymore or get help because I was that far gone. And I sat in there for a very long time and cried and was very angry. And when I finally came out of there, I phoned my mom And I said, I need you to come and help you. And she did. Right away that night. And I went to my therapist And I took three months off of work, and I took care of myself.
And in that therapy session, one of them, my therapist said, you know you’re supposed to do something with this pain. Right? You’re supposed to do something with your journey. And I didn’t know what she meant by that. But it’s stuck in my brain. And then it came to me over time. And I was like, I’m supposed to talk about this. Supposed to talk about this. Alright. And so that’s how my podcast came to me. Hard beautiful journey is sharing our story. That’s how it started. Was sharing our journey through infertility and our parenting struggles with kids with ADHD and OCD and everything that goes into that. And I honestly thought that before I did it, I sat down with James, my ex, and I I had written everything out and I read it to him. But I said, are you okay? If I do this, if we share this, and he was completely on board, completely. And I had the thought if I share all of this and that’s all that happens is I share that and nobody listens or nobody cares. Cool. It’s out there. And that isn’t what happened. Everybody was like, oh my lord. Thank you for sharing that. And I’m now at ninety episodes and still going. And I’m I’m talking with other people who are sharing their hard beautiful dirty and who are sharing their stories and being vulnerable in helping one other person in the world by doing so. So that’s how that all came to be.
Victoria Volk: And now you’re on my podcast.
Tiff Carson: And now I’m here. So I’m on a break from my podcast right now for this emerge. And the reason why is because I wanted to share my story on other people’s podcasts and be a guest for once. So I have been enjoying being on this side of the microphone and being asked the questions in a different way to also make me think about different parts my story because it’s an ongoing healing journey every day. And so, like, you bringing up these questions to me is helping me heal more. And even though I’m crying, I see those tears since healing tears. Not anything to be ashamed of.
Victoria Volk: How long ago was that time in the closet?
Tiff Carson: Twenty eighteen. It was no. Sorry. Twenty seventeen. Twenty seventeen, and it was twenty eighteen that I found out about my brother and his stuff. So twenty seventeen, I was going through a lot of therapy. Really working on my own healing journey, and that when and then into early twenty eighteen is when I went to that mom’s retreat in North Carolina. And and I had just found out about my brother’s stuff as well. So it was a lot I was processing a lot of that stuff with my brother and my dad through therapy as well because it did bring him up. What happened between me and my brother that helped me understand our journey. So, yeah, that two year period was pretty, pretty difficult. But it’s it’s just gotten it’s an interesting thing because it it was it’s gotten easier, but also hard because of the grief of losing him and then my marriage ending. But it’s because of the work that I’m doing on myself that I know that’s why I’m getting through these things. Otherwise, I would not be here like at all because it was so difficult before I started getting therapy and talking with people and just being vulnerable. And hearing other people’s stories and sharing experiences and knowing I’m not alone in all of those things have helped me get through these grief journeys because if I would have kept it to myself and just sat here and did nothing, It would have been not a good good situation.
Victoria Volk: Where are things at now with your ex husband and the kids and the dynamics of all of that? Like, how how have you navigated all of that?
Tiff Carson: Well, that is a very good question. Well, Trying to decide how much to share. So there was a lot of rejection that I faced in our marriage from my ex husband. A lot of rejections intimately and connection lines. And there was a point when my daughter was one years old that I almost left him because it had been eleven years of it. And I I know someone that stems from the infertility and, like, the failure side of it and but it would it just wasn’t getting any better. And finally in when my brother passed away. Things hadn’t been really good for about a year before he passed away. But when my brother passed away, James gave me a couple of big hugs to comfort me. And I realized I hadn’t been in his arms like that.
For many years. And I I was like, well, why did it take losing my brother for this to happen. So that after he died, I was just like, what? Why. You know? And that’s when I my brother dying was a wake up call for me. It’s like life is too short. Life is too short. And I don’t think our kids ever saw us hug. Kiss, hold hands, maybe hold hands, maybe once. And that’s it. We were roommates. Taking care of their kids quite literally. And I tried numerous times over the twenty years that we were together to get us to a place where we could be intimate and connect connected and all of it. I don’t know how many times, countless times. And things would get good for a couple weeks and be kind of like, hey, let’s just shut her up. Let’s satisfy her. You know? And then then it stopped. And it was just as a cycle and it just kept happening over and over and over again. And then my brother died and I was like, no, I need more from this. And so I asked for a trial separation. And him and I went to marriage counseling. And we went separately. We went together. And our therapist said, in this three month trial, let’s try it for three months, I need you to focus on yourself, only yourself. And nobody else, no there’s no third parties, nothing. And he chose not to do that. So that was really hard. Again with the rejection. And so but I also made it. I wanted my kids to not deal with any of that. I wanted them to have parents that weren’t fighting, that weren’t you know, mad at each other. And so I I that’s where I did shove stuff. And I I was I said, k. I’m gonna be I’m gonna be friends with them at least. And that was working for a bit, but then I realized that it was actually harming my healing process. And just recently over the last couple months, I put in some pretty firm boundaries that no. I no. You have your new life, and I have mine And the only thing that we need to talk about is our kids. And that’s it. And maybe one day, we’ll get back to that place where we’re friends, but not right now. And that’s very, very hard for me because It’s really hard for people to understand this much. The one thing that we did have at our marriage was a friendship. We had a really good friendship, and now I don’t have that, and that’s what I miss the most. So a lot of grief. A lot, a lot of grief over the last three years. A lot of tears. A lot of guttural crying like where I’m like, you know, the type crying where it’s like, an animal was coming out of you. But a lot of really good days too. A lot of really good days. And so when I’m having the low moments? I know I call it my roller co I have the craziest rollercoaster. I swear to God. It’s God. So many twists and turns and ups and downs. And I’m also going to prepare a bed and pause, so there’s a head too. But I know that when I’m hitting that low on my roller coaster, I know I’m coming out of it a lot sooner, a lot quicker than I used to. And I can feel that. I’m not stained in those little moments as long as I was before, and it’s because I’m talking. And if I need to and I’m writing a lot and I’m breathing, I’ve started doing breath work. And I would meditate as well, but the breath work has really, really helped me. I am walking like I have never walked in my life. Like, it is crazy how much walking I am doing. And it is helping my moods, my mindset. I cry when I walk. I smile when I walk. You name it. I do it all. I listened to music. And, yeah, it’s It’s been a crazy three years.
Victoria Volk: How are the kids doing?
Tiff Carson: They I like I said, I talked to them all the time. All the time. And At first, it was very difficult for them. But I am proud of James and I or that period of time in the initial separation and and all of that where we did have the United front where we were both there for them. And being friends because it it was an easier transition for them and easier change for them in some regards. In some instances, I think it also confused them. And when I knew and felt that they were confused, I talked to them. Because I can see and feel the confusion. And I am not even exaggerating. I talk to them all the time. If I feel like they’re having a hard day, with something or when they’re moving between his house and my house. Like, I give them on the day that it happens and they’re coming back to me, I give them so much grace if there’s something that they’re, you know, in a bad mood or because what happened actually when we separated is we we were so amicable that we bought a condo together for him and I to move in and out of. Every week and our kids would stay home in the family home until we sold it or until we made the decision that it was going to happen. We are gonna get a divorce. And so him and I were moving back and forth or six months. And so we got that experience of moving. And I’m so grateful for that. Because it gave me so much compassion and empathy for that aspect of my kid’s life now that you don’t really get settled. And I yeah, it it’s not not easy for them to do that. Right? And so when they come back to me, when they go back to him, when they come back to me anyway, I give them that time to adjust, and then I check-in with them and, yeah, this very open communication with them.
Victoria Volk: Since that experience of you moving back and forth, informed you of how hard that can be. What kind of decision did you come to together then as far as joint custody and visitation on that.
Tiff Carson: We have fifty-fifty. So we switch every week. Yeah. We have them for one week at a time and we’re very, very, very good co parents. That is even with the boundaries that I’ve put in place and the distancing myself from him in the friendship way, we are really good co parents.
Victoria Volk: It’s great to hear. Really good and
Tiff Carson: I hope to god that never changes. Ever because I just know and seen when it isn’t that way, and I I also know why it can’t be that way if some of the people in the relationship are not cooperative or just narcissists or whatever. Right? There’s a variety of reasons why it can’t be that way. If anything out of our infertility journey and our parenting struggles in it, those moments where I was, like, mad at God for this, I’m grateful that we have this parenting, co parenting.
Relationship. I’m grateful for that because those times where There’s maybe only been three times in the last couple of years where I was just so angry about him. For something that he did or said, and then I didn’t talk to him for a week. Try parenting and organizing three kids schedules with sports and schools and all of it, and you’re not talking with them. It’s impossible. And So, yeah, I just I made the decision and I told him everything is for the kids. And I will strive to be the best co parent with you because they deserve it. And we deserve it after how hard we work to get them here.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned how you were angry with God a couple of times. Where do you sit with that now?
Tiff Carson: I’m at a place of peace with it and understanding. And it was literally from what my therapist said, when she said, you know, you’re supposed to do something with this. There’s a purpose behind it. And when I finally understood that, that I was supposed to help other people with this stuff, and that everything is a lesson and that we’re meant to help each other. I’m not supposed to keep all of this to myself and just suffer in silence. I was meant to help somebody else with my story. And when I finally understood that, I was like, okay, I got it. Got it. God. Alright, but I could use about five minutes off now. Give me a break and then talk to anybody. Just give me a break from the grief for a while. And I think he has for a while. Oh, yeah. That’s growing up.
Victoria Volk: I think we’re on the same mission, and my story kinda came to be too because you know, it’s one thing to to hold it in. And then once you start using your voice, like you said, it’s healing to hear other people’s stories and to share parts of your own with others. And so I might podcast is called craving voices. Mhmm. You know, people can come on and use their voice because I’ve personally learned that that is a way to heal. Mhmm. And process and, like, as we’re talking about it, we’re kind of we’re processing it. There’s always something else to discover and we don’t connect those dots and we don’t recognize those things when Our lips are sealed.
Tiff Carson: Nope. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Then it’s our mind and our ego. That’s just run-in
Tiff Carson: the show. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: We’re not connecting with our hearts. So
Tiff Carson: Yeah. Soon as you connect with your heart, it all changes.
Victoria Volk: And it’s game on. That’s really hard.
Tiff Carson: It’s game on and it’s like, okay. Here we go. But it’s worth it in my opinion.
Victoria Volk: So what has your grief taught you?
Tiff Carson: It has taught me that I am. I don’t wanna use the word strong. I am really, I’m strong, but I am love. That’s what it’s taught me. Is that I know how to load.
Victoria Volk: Even when it’s hard. Even when it’s tough. Tell me the significance of
Tiff Carson: four forty four. My brother. The moment he died has been showing me four, four, four, four, in the most craziest places. I believe in angel numbers and angel signs and Yeah. From the moment he died, I have been seen four, four, four, four. And Not long after he died, after his funeral, I went to Texas for a work conference. And I was driving on the interstate. My Corpus Christi in this billboard. One of those electronic ones, and all seven, four, four came up on the mailboard. That’s it. I’m, like and then on the radio, his songs came on just, like, right away. Like and that’s when I was, like, So at first, I I didn’t understand the four four four, like, when he first passed. But then when that happened, I was like, oh, that’s your sign for me. Okay. Alright. Fine. And now it’s like everywhere. Like, I actually have screenshots on my phone when I wake up. And I checked my phone and it’s four four four license plates. On the yeah.
Everywhere. Everywhere.
Victoria Volk: I am there’s a website I I I believe in that stuff too. And there’s a website that I I looked it up. And you probably have two, I’m sure. Yes. But what I looked up and what it right says is that angel number four four four brings a message that all as well. Trust that you are on your correct life path and are doing a great job.
Tiff Carson: He is with me, guided me through this whole thing. He was when I was writing the book too. I felt him with me every everywhere when I wrote. Like, I would actually take my I write if I tried to write in my house or No. No.
No way. And I things would distract me. I’d have laundry to do. You name it. Right?
I No. A good show was on. So I would grab this chair of mine, like a beach chair kind of thing. And I would take it out to the mountains and I would sit in the mountains, buy a river, or buy a lake, and I would write. And he was always with me. Always. Like, I can feel him with me. And I would write by I went out to the ocean. I went out to Victoria and Vancouver, and I wrote by the ocean. And how I would describe my writing at some point was the waves when they were coming in were bringing stories to me. They were bringing memories and they were bringing, like, all of our childhood stuff. And, like, it was, like, I was typing and they were, like, bringing them in. And then when they were going out, it was taking all the sadness and all of the pain. And it was just kinda like this in and out. And I have goosebumps right now because that’s how it was working for me. So if I ever couldn’t if I was having a writer’s block or couldn’t get through a part of the book. I would grab my laptop and my my chair and I would head out to the mountains and Yeah. It just came and water and nature was so healing for me. In my writing journey. And when I write my next book? Because I know I’m meant to write another one. I will definitely do the same thing because that’s what worked for me.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. What is the best piece of advice you had received other than, you know, you have to do something with this pain. Mhmm. What was the best piece of advice you received while you were going through all this? And he lost a friendship too, but is that aside from your x?
Tiff Carson: Yes. And that one I’m not quite ready to talk about yet. That one will be definitely in the second bucket. But the best piece of advice, I think, I got was honestly, it was give yourself grace. And First, I didn’t know what that meant.
And I was just like, what does that mean? Give myself grace. And now I find myself saying that took third people, and I actually just made a post about it the other day. It was give yourself grace, and then give yourself more grace, and then give yourself more grace. Because life can be really, really hard, really, really hard.
And you I got up. I got out out of bed and I had a shower and I brushed my teeth and some days, I don’t feel like doing any of that because I’m I would be in a ball crying. Right? Give yourself greats that you’re doing the best that you can. Some days are harder than others. And not to beat yourself up if you’re having a low day. If you don’t feel like walking or or sizing or eating well, or any of the things where you feel you’re feeling? Just give yourself grace and get up and try again.
Victoria Volk: I feel like you shared a lot that I think will resonate with my listeners. But is there anything that you feel you didn’t get to talk about or something you didn’t get to say that you would like to share here at the end?
Tiff Carson: I think I think the thing that I would always wanna say is that no matter what you go through and things that could hurt you or as long as there’s love in your heart or yourself first and foremost, that is what will get you through these hard times. You can love other people, and and I do. I love everybody, including my dad, including my ex, I have love for them. I love them. But if I don’t love myself, it is a much harder journey. And I am absolutely falling in love with me. So
Victoria Volk: I’d say that’s also another thing that grief has taught you. Yes. How to do?
Tiff Carson: Yes. It has taught me how to fall in love with myself. And I’m very grateful for that. And what gives you hope for the future. I have a lot of hope for that future. Like I said, there’s days where I was in the fetal position and just guttural crying. Right? And then there’s days where I’m like, really, really, really excited or what’s to come? Like, I I I have so much that I wanna do and so many people that I wanna talk to and so many places that I wanna see. That’s what gives me hope is that I have that excitement. I have that desire to want to do those things. And if I didn’t have that excitement and that desire, I think I would be a lot more, like, I don’t know, sad, depressed, and all of those kind of but I do I have a lot of excitement for my future. For me, for my kids, for all of it.
Victoria Volk: That’s wonderful. I love that. You know that that for you? I love that for your kids. Yes. Because if you don’t have hope, where’s theirs? Exactly.
Tiff Carson: And I know I used to put them before anything. Anything. And especially with the challenges that we faced with them with schools and doctors and everything. And I literally put them first. And I stopped doing that.
And I put myself first. And I’m taking care of myself first and my well-being and my mental health. And it is helping them because I am getting better. I am tapier. I am more energetic now. I am like all of the things. And by taking care of my cell first, it’s benefiting them.
Victoria Volk: Would you say that that is your advice to parents who are raising children with ADHD and ODD? Absolutely. Because the way that I was doing it before
Tiff Carson: it put me behind the clothes in my closet. And
Victoria Volk: breaking you.
Tiff Carson: Looking for a way out. And I was completely broken completely broken. And it’s when I decided to get help from my self and take care of myself first. That’s when it all started to change. So highly recommend. I understand it’s hard to think that you have time to take care of yourself first when you’re dealing with those kind of things. I’ve been there. I have three of them. Who all of them were challenging are still challenging some days, and I didn’t think I would survive. I quite literally didn’t think I would survive parenting them. And it’s when I made that choice to Take care of me is when it all it all started to get better slowly. Very slowly. But I could see the light. And it gave me hope and I just kept going and going and going.
Victoria Volk: Comes back to cause and effect.
Tiff Carson: Mhmm. Mhmm. Absolutely nuts.
Victoria Volk: Where can people find you if they would like to connect with you and find your book and all the things?
Tiff Carson: I am on social media, so Instagram and Facebook at I m tip carson. And my website is tip carson dot com. And my book dancing and rain is on Amazon, and my podcast is hard, beautiful journey, and you could find that anywhere, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, you need it. It’s on all of them.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. So openly and vulnerability as you did, And I have no doubts that anyone listening to this. There’s a part of your story that will resonate with them.
Tiff Carson: Thank you so much for having me and allowing me to process some my healing, some my grief again.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week’s guest, Becky Ellis, recounts how her father’s concealed World War II experiences shaped their family life, culminating in her powerful memoir Little Avalanches. Join us as we explore themes of secrecy, resilience, and reconciliation.
Key Highlights:
- Discover how Becky navigated through the silence surrounding her father’s wartime past.
- Understand the challenges she faced while balancing reverence for his heroism against the shadows it cast over their family dynamics.
- Learn about Becky’s decade-long journey to penning Little Avalanches and its role in mending the fractured relationship with her father.
Deep Dive Into Emotional Legacies:
- Grasp how children process trauma differently and why giving them a voice is crucial.
- Witness Becky’s transformation as she listens to her inner child and adult self during writing.
- Feel moved by the harrowing tale of the fateful day at the Mark River, which left indelible scars on her father and all involved.
Becky exemplifies resilience through storytelling, illustrating how unearthing past pains can lead to profound personal transformation and provide voices for those whose narratives are seldom heard. Her life story emphasizes empathy as the key to truly understanding others’ struggles while coping with grief, both inherited and experienced firsthand.
This isn’t just another war story; this is an invitation—to see beyond medals and accolades and into hearts haunted by battlefields far removed from sight and yet ever-present. It’s an exploration of what happens when we confront grief head-on instead of shying away—an acknowledgment that sometimes joy is found not despite sorrow but because we’ve dared to embrace it fully.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available
Support the Show.
This episode is sponsored by Do Grief Differently™️, my twelve-week, one-on-one, in-person/online program for grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better. Click here to learn new tools, grief education, and the only evidence-based method for moving beyond the pain of grief.
Would you like to join the mission of Grieving Voices in normalizing grief and supporting hurting hearts everywhere? Become a supporter of the show HERE.
Uncovering the Silent Battles: A Daughter’s Memoir of War and Its Aftermath
In a deeply personal account, Becky Ellis shares her journey of writing Little Avalanches, a memoir that traces her father’s harrowing experiences in World War II and its ripple effects on her family. As the daughter of a combat sergeant who bore his scars in silence, Becky steps into the light to narrate not only his story but also hers—how living with unspoken trauma shaped their lives.
From Silence to Revelation: The Weight of Hidden Stories
For decades, Becky’s father encapsulated the stoic soldier stereotype, keeping his war-induced traumas locked away. It was this fortress of silence that cast long shadows over Becky’s childhood. Like many veterans, he carried invisible wounds that manifested through alcoholism and unpredictable behavior—a common yet under-discussed legacy affecting countless military families.
The act of uncovering these secrets did more than just bring them into the open; it became an integral part of healing for both father and daughter. By sharing stories once buried by time and fear, they began peeling back layers of grief and misunderstanding.
Writing as Catharsis: Penning Little Avalanches
Becky embarked on what would become a decade-long project to pen down Little Avalanches. Despite her extensive background in publishing, confronting her own narrative proved daunting when juxtaposed against her father’s dramatic wartime saga. Yet she persisted, learning to give voice to both tales with equal gravity.
Her memoir is not merely about recounting past events; it is an exploration into how children process trauma differently from adults—often silently—and how crucial it is for them (and their adult selves) to be heard.
Echoes from History: Understanding Generational Trauma
As she delved deeper into storytelling, historical context came sharply into focus—the brutal realities faced by soldiers like her father contrasted starkly with contemporary efforts towards preserving humanity even amidst conflict. Through understanding this evolution in military ethos over time, we gain insight into why certain coping mechanisms were adopted by those who served during earlier wars.
Becky recounts one particularly chilling episode where during the crossing at Mark River under relentless enemy fire led to tragic losses among comrades—a moment etched forever in her father’s memory.
Navigating Family Dynamics Amidst Chaos
The impact didn’t end with him; it rippled outwards affecting familial relationships too complex for any child or sibling dynamic chart could capture accurately enough—from divorce battles between parents to strained ties amongst siblings due largely because each member processed pain differently within such tumultuous setting created by lingering war aftereffects at home front lines alike!
Embracing Grief as Part Of Life’s Tapestry
One key revelation emerges loud clear throughout our conversation—it isn’t about overcoming grief but rather embracing it wholly which allows us truly live fully enriched lives capable joy despite—or perhaps even because —our deepest sorrows pains endured along way…
This poignant realization extends beyond herself touching upon roles played other family members especially mother whose support often went unnoticed until now finally receiving recognition deserved through written word spoken aloud together bringing forth collective catharsis shared universally across generations irrespective backgrounds cultures borders alike…
In conclusion,Grieving Voices offers raw authentic glimpse inside world marked silent battles fought behind closed doors revealing untold stories waiting patiently be told… And so does Little Avalanches, beckoning readers join reflective odyssey understanding profound human costs concealed beneath surface glorified narratives surrounding warfare itself!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Thank you for joining me on grieving voices with my guests today, Becky Ellis. She is a timber wolf pup. The daughter of a highly decorated World War two combat surgeon, she is a veteran of a war fought at home. Sharon to bachelor’s in English literature at UC Berkeley and has over twenty years of experience in the publishing industry. She teaches writing in Portland, Oregon where she lives, plays, and has raised three daughters. Little avalanches, mister Dayview, memoir, and recently won the Ruberry Book Award for non fiction. Thank you so much for being my guests today, and To be honest, I had to look up timber Wolf pup. I had no idea what that was, and just reading through your website, there was one line that really jumped out at me and really resonated with me. And that’s really where I wanna start today. Because I think it’s
Becky Ellis: it’s could be a billboard.
Victoria Volk: It could be a billboard quote. But you say on your website We are profoundly shaped by the secrets we keep and forever changed by the stories we share. I mean, that says it all, really. It says a lot about grief. It says a lot about trauma. It says I mean, there’s a lot packed into those what is that? Seventeen words? Seventeen words. Yeah.
Becky Ellis: Well, thank you so much for having me here, Victoria. I really appreciate being here. And that is the message that inspired me to even write a book to talk about the things I write about because I learned later in my father’s life, all the secrets that he was keeping and realized how much they’d shaped our family. And once he started sharing his story, it it profoundly changed everything about my process, my healing process, my grieving process, who I am, who I’m becoming, and it had a profound impact on me. So Let’s put a
Victoria Volk: pin in that. Sorry.
Becky Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. No. Go ahead.
Victoria Volk: Let’s put a pin in that because I wanna rewind the clock because you’ve been in publishing for many years, what were you writing about before this memoir came out?
Becky Ellis: I wasn’t writing before this memoir. I was I worked for a publisher that specialized in cookbooks and gardening books. And I worked for time in co entertainment, which the brands there are sunset and southern living and cooking light, and I did sales and marketing for those brands. And I’d also worked for a book distributor as a book buyer and a couple of different things in publishing. I love books, And after I graduated from college, I wanted to work with books.
I always thought I wanted to write, but I didn’t know what to write about. And I found something that I needed to write about. So I started learning to write and becoming a writer. I’ve written some essays and a couple of pieces of short fiction, but for the most part, the memoir is my largest body of work.
Victoria Volk: How many years did it take you to write it?
Becky Ellis: Four months? Well, I sort of start the clock when my father started telling me his story. And from that point until it was published a few months ago was a ten year process. So I wasn’t writing that entire time, but I would say ten years from beginning to end.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So it’s do you find do you look back now and do you find it interesting, curious? Fascinating maybe all of those things that you didn’t know what to write about and yet now that you know what your body of work has created, what you’ve created in little avalanches, like, what is that introspection What did you believe? And what story were you telling you yourself that you didn’t have anything to write about and yet you had lived this life in the shadow of your father’s PTSD as we’ll get to.
Becky Ellis: So one of the things that I learned in the process of writing and processing my childhood and processing our family dynamic and family system and all of that. Is that I always felt like my story was irrelevant compared to my father’s. And although I didn’t have any understanding of what he went through as a combat sergeant in World War two because he wouldn’t talk about it, when I was young, he would fire out he was an alcoholic and he would fire out bits and pieces of really scary story when he was drunk and he would quickly stop himself. And I kind of described that as machine gun fire stories. They were piercing.
They hurt. They were horrible. And I don’t think he wanted to share them, but they came out sometimes, and then he’d stop himself. And I always felt that he was such a decorated war hero even though he never talked about that either. It’s just something that we knew. And I felt the weight of the wound that he carried always. And I felt insignificant compared to that. I felt like I could never have a story as important as his story. So I didn’t even consider my story. In fact, it was one of the greatest challenges in writing a memoir was that my story and my voice needed to be more important or as important as his. And by writing mentor at one time said to me, where are you in this store? Where are you on the page? And I laid out all the pages of the book on my living room floor, and I put a letter on which page my father owned and which page I owned. And it was true. He owns seventy five percent of the story. And that was a huge shift in my process of all of it was just owning my own story and feeling my own story. And what I ended up with is understanding that children’s voices are not very often heard. Children are supposed to act okay, especially when things are not okay. And it’s really hard to allow children to speak. It’s really hard for children to speak because we’re very adaptive. We know when it’s safe and when it isn’t. And it’s also it’s taboo for children to speak. And so I often get a little not a little bit. I often get super scared when I start sharing my story because it still feels taboo for children to speak. But I think to get children a voice in the narrative of even more trauma or any kind of trauma is really important because they aren’t often heard and they don’t have voices and we don’t really consider what they’re thinking and feeling because adults are sort of I know adults really care. I care so deeply. I have to be children three girls of my own. And I care very deeply about what they’re experiencing in a moment of trauma, but it’s really hard to manage. So I think we care and we try. But to actually give them space to voice, I think is is rare. So that that was something that I really wanted to do was make space and give voice, and it was a huge growth process for me. To sort of own my own voice. So my story starts with me as a five year old. And the whole first part of my book is from the voice of a child.
Victoria Volk: What do you tell your five year old self now, your child, your inner child now. Like, before you wrote this book or before this book was coming out and pouring out of you, the you before and the you now? What is the difference? And and and how you show up in the world, but also how you how you show yourself that care and compassion within that you didn’t maybe receive as a child.
Becky Ellis: Right. I’ll start with the dialogue I have with my five year old self, and I still have it a lot, which is I listen to her now. I don’t tell her anything except I I’m listening. And I listen to what she has to say. And I you know, when I was five year old, a five year old and a seven year old and a ten year old, I used to talk to my future self and say, we’re never gonna let this happen. Again, and we’re getting out of here, and we’re gonna move to another continent. You know? Like, we’re not doing this anymore. And I listen to that, and I listen to the promises that she made to us, and I value that. And I think that’s what I do is I pull her into my lap and I say, okay, what do you have to say to me now? Like, where are we? So I think I I have that’s a different relationship that I have with her now. And as far as how I am in the world, I think the process that I went through with hearing my father’s story and sharing mine with him allowed me to find a much deeper place of compassion and empathy for who he is and who I am. I what he ended up doing, and it took several years, but he told me a lot of his combat trauma, a lot of his combat story. And after not talking about it for seventy years, like, he refused to speak about it.
Wouldn’t talk he wouldn’t talk about anything about the past. Not fifty years ago, not five years ago, not five minutes ago. He was a man that moved forward. And did nothing else. But, nope, we’re going forward. We’re not processing the past. We’re not talking about it. We’re on the move. And that was how we survived the war. And that’s how we were surviving life. And so when we slowed down and we had these conversations, he got to a point in his story that was so unimaginable to me and so horrible that for the first time I saw him for who he was, not who I wanted him to be as a father or a grandparent or who I needed him to be as a child, but for who he really was. And in that moment, I was flooded with compassion for him. And I think it’s really rare that we see our parents or our partners or even our children. For who they are and not who we want them to be or who we need them to be. And so dropping my expectations and desires for him gave me I think I think empathy was not a feeling I really had for him before, to be honest, because he was tough. And I was just flooded with empathy. And I began to see the connections from his experience to my experience and what how my childhood was shaped. And I now try to see other people for their reasons and their own experience. Apart from my experience, people have their own experience. And it’s different from it’s different from ours. And so I think it has changed me in that way. It’s really hearing people’s deeper stories I think we can see them for who they are apart from ourselves.
Victoria Volk: Do you have siblings?
Becky Ellis: I do. Yeah. My father had eight children. Had four wives and eight children. So I have one whole brother, my brother Martin who’s a year older than I am and I have a younger sister, Sheena, who comes from my father’s wife after my mother. And the three of us are very close because we were kind of raised together. Then I have two brothers that came with his fourth wife And I have and and I know them well and I’m close with them. And I have three siblings, half siblings from his first marriage who he abandoned those children. So I don’t know them well.
Victoria Volk: So were your your parents, did they end up divorcing?
Becky Ellis: Yes. They were married about,
Victoria Volk: is your mom still living? She is
Becky Ellis: we celebrated her ninety fourth birthday last week. Wow. You go.
Victoria Volk: And your father.
Becky Ellis: My father passed away three years ago at the age of ninety six. Wow.
Victoria Volk: Nice. Isn’t that amazing? Like, I feel like it’s amazing that despite so much grief and trauma, that he lived in ninety six. And I just I imagine your mother too. Like, she was living in the same household. Like, she was going through that same similar experience, not same. Of course, it’s going to be different for her being the spouse. So after the divorce, did you continue to live with your mother then? Or did you live with your father? Or
Becky Ellis: Yeah. There was a huge custody battle. For my brother and I between my parents because my father had abandoned his first three children. He drove away and just never saw him again. And his youngest was nine months old and his oldest was six years old. And well, my mother has told me my father tried to contact them several times when after he he wasn’t successful. And I think he really regretted that. And so he wasn’t gonna make the same mistake with my brother and I. So there was a really big traumatic custody battle And we’re in, you know, my brother and I were pulled into court, and the judge asked us who we wanted to live with, which is a horrible thing to ask a child. But we ended up my mother had primary custody, although they had joint custody. So we spent we we technically lived with my mother. Every other weekend, we went to my father’s. And we spent half our summers in every other holiday with my father, so we were back and forth constantly. And my mother constantly moved around the state of California. She wasn’t allowed to live California. Leave California. So we moved around she moved around California trying to get away from him.
Victoria Volk: So during your visitation, was it, like, this environment that you just couldn’t wait to get out of? Yes.
Becky Ellis: It was. He married Judy, who was my stepmother. And while she was super fun. It was, I think, nineteen or twenty when they met and married shortly after that. So she was pretty much a child too, and my dad was about fifty at the time.
There are forty late forties. She was hippie from the sixties. Your archetypal hippy. She smoked pot. She did drugs. She was fun. But she was also inappropriate. And My dad was an alcoholic, and so it was really scary and unstable and unpredictable what was going to happen when we went to my dad’s. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So I read in your website your dad became a doctor. Yeah. So amongst kind of the chaos that was ensuing in his internal life, he somehow managed to get his doctorate, PhD, MD, whatever he got.
Becky Ellis: MD. Yeah. He so he came back from the war in nineteen forty five. In January, early January. Within a couple weeks, he enrolled in college He was went to Case Western Reserve University. He got his bachelor’s in two years and he got his doctor his MD in four years after that. So within six years, he got his bachelor’s that came in MD, married and had three children. He married a couple months after he got home. He married his high school sweetheart and began having children right away. That’s what he did. And he talked to me a lot about how he became an alcoholic because the nightmares were so horrible. He could not sleep. And so he would drink until he passed out so that he could even fall asleep because he was afraid of sleep and that was his method of getting to sleep. And he would get up the next day and do the whole thing again. He went to school, he studied, he drank, he woke up, He went to school. He studied he drank. I’m sure he tried to take standards or maybe any standards wasn’t an optimal father figure. Yeah, at that time.
Victoria Volk: It’s almost like he had this, you know, like we say in grief recovery, like workaholism, can be a distraction and a disturb, short term energy relief behavior for people to avoid the pain and avoid the grief and the trauma and all of that. And it sounds like that he became a professional at that. And Yes. Outwardly, it would look like, oh, he’s an overachiever. He’s you know, successful and, you know, it’s like these outward appearances only tell a fraction of the story.
Very little of
Becky Ellis: the stats that I really which is true for all of us in our everyday lives. We’re not well known, I don’t think.
Victoria Volk: That’s a good that’s a true statement. That feels like a true statement.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So you mentioned the nightmares and the dreams and things like that and I don’t know for you as a child growing up as a child grieber, but I remember distinctly my dreams and nightmares being in my dreams I was this giant. I was a giant. And I would imagine being able to just pick things up and move things at my will and be able like, it was like I was bigger than life. And I remember watching William Neeson was in a movie called a monster calls. I think I cried during that whole movie. Because it’s about this little boy whose mom dies of cancer. And his it’s like his dream comes to life and in the dream he meets this big monster. And it was like seeing my dreams come to life on this in this movie. I think it’s based on a book too, and I highly recommend it for adults who are child who are child reavers because I think there’s a part of that story that you would probably deeply resonate with, but what were your dreams growing up? Do you remember?
Becky Ellis: Yeah, it’s interesting. I have one that I remember, super clearly, that was a reoccurring dream. And I I pay really close attention to my dreams. Now, I’ve been in, young, analysis for over a decade now. So we do a lot of dream work in that, my therapist and I. Because I think the dreams are an a message to the conscious mind. And I read somewhere in an open dream just like, leaving a unopened letter from your subconscious mind, like leaving a letter unopened if you don’t really examine them. So I don’t always do it, but it’s a method. And from my childhood, my reoccurring dream is that I it’s so personal. It’s so weird.
But I was in a station wagon with my siblings. And there were wolves trying to get us, right, nipping at the tailgates down and they’re trying to jump in and trying to devour us. And they’re nipping at the, you know, the back fender, those silver fenders that Old Station Wagons used to have. So it was always kind of trying to get away from the bad guys, which makes a whole lot of sense to me now. And it didn’t make any sense to me then. But you mentioned at the introduction, you didn’t know what a timber Wolf pop is. And for your listeners, at timber Wolf, is sort of the call name for the hundred and fourth infantry division. Every division has its own sort of nickname or a nickname and they were the timberwolves. And their logo is a their patch is a it’s green with a wool oh, kind of silver Wolf head with its jaws open and bearing its teeth. That is their logo. And their motto is nothing in hell can stop the timber wolves. And while a lot of timber wolves were stopped because my father’s infantry division, his unit, had a three hundred percent casualty rate though he saw so much death and experienced, I’m sure, so much grief. That it’s unimaginable to me how a person could go through that much grief. And my father told me, I think it was their thirteenth day of battle. There was just a huge massacre and he lost most of his men in this battle. And he said after that point, he stopped remembering men’s names. He didn’t wanna know them anymore. He didn’t wanna know he could he said he couldn’t handle the grief. And he always stood by men were not friends. If we were friends, we could not have survived the grief of the war. So we needed each other. We absolutely depended on each other, but we could not warm friendships because we we couldn’t have survived the grief.
Victoria Volk: And it’s so different today in the military. You know, it’s still different today. Fortunately, you know, now it’s like no man left behind or woman left behind and But you know that
Becky Ellis: I think they had that spirit as well, but they were in a situation where they they couldn’t they couldn’t do that. They my father has also shared with me that, you know, the training in the military is to dehumanize the soldier. And you cannot run into machine gun fire, and you cannot go to war unless you’re dehumanize. He said it’s absolutely horrible, but it’s utterly necessary. And I feel like the the same spirit what’s there then is don’t leave anyone behind, but you also sometimes don’t have a choice. You know? I’m sure there are times now when they also don’t have a choice.
Victoria Volk: Well, and what happens to is what what you really leave behind is the essence of who you are. Yeah. You know, he left behind himself who he was before.
Becky Ellis: Right. And your humanity.
Victoria Volk: What was his do you mind sharing? One of the stories that touched you the most? That he shared with you?
Becky Ellis: There are so many that are so horrific.
Victoria Volk: Maybe one that gave you a glimpse into a side of him that you never saw but that expressed maybe the humanity that existed amongst the timber wolves maybe.
Becky Ellis: So what’s coming to me right now is a story that that thirteenth day that I talked to you about was the crossing of the Mark River. And he my father thought in the European theater. And the chaplain came out to the men’s holes the night before. My father, the timberwolves, I’ll just say, a little bit of background. They were at battle for one hundred and ninety five consecutive days, which is more than six months time. And it’s longer than any other infantry division in World War two. And on the thirteenth day, which understand. These are eighteen and nineteen year olds, twenty year olds, his thirteenth day in battle. They crossed the Mark River. Which for anybody that was there could never forget it because it was so horrific. They were trying to cross the river. Where the Germans were on the other side, and they were going through Belgium and trying to try and deliberate Belgium. And the Germans were occupying the other bank. And they were just the night before the chaplain came to their holes. They pretty much slept in mud for the entire time they were on the battlefield. They didn’t sleep in beds or anything like that. And they the chaplain came to their holes and let them read them their last rites the night before this battle because they knew. They were they were going into pretty much a massacre. And so my father made it to the other side of the river, and all of his men were or most of his men were taken out very, very quickly. And I I kinda go into detail in the book about it, about some of the things that happened in that in those couple of hours that they were over there.
But one of the things that struck me so deeply about this humanity that we’re talking about is that my father said he used to swear and yell and call his men every bad name in the book to get him to move to, like, shock him out of shock. And to yell at him. And at one point, my father decided to abandon the mission, which he said to hell with what the general wants. I’m getting these boys out of here. So he founded it, he ran into it, started running back to the river, and he kept yelling at this one guy to get up, get up, run, run, run. And one of the men had died and the other the friend of that man, their names were Jack and Jimmy. And I believe it was Jack that had Jimmy that had died and Jack threw himself over Jimmy’s body and his face was half gone and half of his body was gone, but Jack Jack was not going to leave. And my father said, I couldn’t get him to budge. So they kept going. He had to get his guys out of there. And because they’re under fire, this horrible fire. And so my father ended up down at the Bank of the River. And he told his guys to just start swimming, even though they’re still under a tremendous amount of fire. And the guys some of the guys wouldn’t get in the water because they didn’t know how to swim. And so my dad got in the saw a boat on the other side, gotten the water swam over to get it, brought it back, some guy started jumping in the boat. He’s like, don’t get in the boat. Starts yell. I’m not gonna use all the profanity that he shared with me on his podcast. Yelling at them don’t get into the boat. They they held onto the boat with just their eyes out of the water and got to the other side of the river. But and then there’s some things that happened on the other side of the river that were profoundly disturbing because everybody’s nerves are raw. He said they were so frozen cold. There were ice there was ice in the river also, and so many men had been lost in the river. It was full of bodies and this whole thing. But they got to the other side of the river and were so frozen and exhausted. They had to crawl up the river bank. But when they were able to get back across the river two days later when they were finally able to the the whole division was able to cross. They came across Jack and Jimmy. And Jack was still Jack had died. And there were my dad said there was not a scratch on him. And he said he thinks he died of grief. That he just lay over his friend and and died. And it it almost brings me to tears just that the tragedy that these boys went through. So that’s one small little story. When my dad told me his story, I started taking notes on a yellow piece of paper. And then after a few weeks of hearing him. I started recording him, and I have hours and hours of his recording. But Oh, what was I gonna tell you about that? I can’t remember. Just lost my trade of thought thinking about documenting his story. Oh, it ended up. This is what I was gonna say. Thank you for giving me a moment to recall. His story I wanted to get it right, and I when I wrote it all out, got the timeline all straightened out. It was over three hundred pages long. And I don’t think that we can handle that much grief and horror. So I reduced it down to about thirty two pages. Sort of like a fine bezomic reduction. And so it’s enough to really give an idea of what war without glory is and what really happens on the battlefield within one soldier’s psyche and amongst the amongst the men amongst the boys and men who were fighting that the dynamics of that as well. And that’s once what the story I just told you is probably the longest day that I go into because I go into that. Story in detail. One reason is that my father earned a silver star for that going over and getting the boat and coming back but he would never talk about it’s one of the first questions I asked him when I started talking is, please tell me about your silver star. Because he had a plaque of it on his wall, but over his desk, his home office desk, he always had it framed. And he would say he wouldn’t talk about it, but he would say he didn’t do anything different that day than any other soldier did every single day. It was no different than anything anyone else did. And he doesn’t know why he got it, but he kept it in the memory of all of them and what they did.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing and for writing his story and documenting his story because It’s those stories of that generation that so many have been lost, I think. Not documented. Again, I think it’s absolutely somewhat of a miracle that he live to age ninety four. Right? Ninety four?
Becky Ellis: Ninety six. Ninety six. Ninety six. Yeah. Yeah.
That’s just he was tough, my dad. You know? And I I talked to him a lot about survival and surviving and the things we survived. And he said to me, you know, Becky, the human will to survive is astounding. He said, it is there there is such a strong will to survive inside the human spirit. And I think that’s what kept him alive that whole time. That and a lot of good luck. You know?
Victoria Volk: Did he spend a lot? Oh, go ahead.
Becky Ellis: Well, he also took really good care of himself, I would say, physically, emotionally, and mentally. It’s a whole another story. You know, you mentioned about him being a doctor and he was a doctor and back in the fifties when he became a doctor, everyone was a GP. So he was a surgeon and an OB and he was all with things. And my mom says, he was one of the best diagnosticians that she ever met. She was a nurse for her whole career. And I think that he he read constantly in the, you know, the medical journals and he was always up on different things. And when he developed prostate cancer, given the man with such a strong well power, he completely changed his diet. And he had no problem doing things like that. And when I was four thirteen, he stopped drinking. And one day, he just stopped. And that was the end of it. And he never drank again after that. He had one small relapse. His his wife at the time Actually, I give her a lot of credit because she said, this is it. I’m leaving if you don’t stop drinking. And so he stopped. And he had one tiny relapse I don’t know, within that year, but then that was the end of it, for the next, what, fifty years he never drank again. Through the very strong well power as well.
Victoria Volk: So even though I stopped drinking, that didn’t change, like that anger, that seat with her. What was it that was still being expressed from him? That, like, how did he show up then? In his life after he stopped drinking?
Becky Ellis: Well, he felt much more safe to me after he stopped drinking. But he was still combating PTSD. The war never left my father. He left the war, but it never left him. And he was still unpredictable. He was he still put us in dangerous situations. And when I asked him, when he was eighty nine is when he started talking to me. He came to my home in Portland, Oregon where I live. And he asked me if we had any issues to clear up. I know. I think he thought that I was gonna say we’re fine. Look around. I have a beautiful home. I have great kids. I go on great make it look around. Everything’s wonderful. But I thought this is my chance. I wanna know about the war. I wanna know about all this trauma we’ve been through. And so that’s when he started talking to me about it. So he was still in his later years unpredictable. I didn’t really know how he was gonna show up sometimes. And when we started talking, we talked, you know, for until until his the last year of his life, and we talked constantly about he would say, oh, there’s one more thing I forgot to tell you. It’s really important you need to know this or you need to know that. And I had the opportunity during that time to talk to him about my childhood and process a lot of that with him. And one of the things that I had asked him was Why did you do some of the things with us? If I put your grandchildren, my daughters, and that those situations, you would be curious with me. And he explained that he put himself in dangerous situations after the war to continue to prove to himself that he could survive. And he put the people he loved in those situations too to continue to prove to himself that we would survive. Because he was constantly in fear of our survival. So he would, you know, try to make us as tough as we could possibly be. He did things like, had me get my teeth drilled without Novocaine as a child. So I would be tough so I could handle things. And stuff like that. It was the survival mechanism. And I think his will to survive was incredibly strong.
Victoria Volk: I once read that, like, children who experience trauma and and things and probably even adults if they’ve experienced trauma you know, you can kinda get attracted to trauma or scary situations or put yourself in those situations in order to it’s almost to, like, not relive, but hone those skills of survival or hone those skills of of, yeah, I think survival. And so when you say that, that’s not that doesn’t sound unusual to me. Just knowing what are you thinking about grief and trauma?
Becky Ellis: Right. I think that’s I think we practice things that we think we need to know. Where I wish we were practicing compassion and grieving instead. And and I know we are now, and I know I am now. And I’m glad I’ve kind of gotten over that hump of being attracted to trauma, being attracted to adventure. I mean, when I was in college, I went to UC Berkeley and was on the ski team, and I had no problem jumping off of cornices. I wouldn’t do that now. You know, and I see the I see the risk taker in me that I was. I was also careful. You know, I was a very calculated risk taker. I said, I can see that.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned your dad started to talk to you and he kind of initiated this opening up at age eighty nine, was that before or after his diagnosis of prostate cancer?
Becky Ellis: It was about ten years after.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So it’s almost as if he had, like, this premonition of, well, I suppose he’s eighty nine, like, how much time do I have left? Like, he he I think he just you know, do you think he really just wanted to unburden himself and maybe give you what he felt you needed to?
Becky Ellis: Well, I asked him what he was doing. I said, what are you doing, dad? Are you making the rounds? Are you trying to clear up old business? And he I and I reminded him, I said, don’t forget. You promised you were gonna outlive all of us because that he would always say that. No. Don’t worry about me. I’m an outlive ball. You. And I think my father’s mortality was always with him. I don’t think you can go to war and not be confronted with your mortality constantly. But I also think that he didn’t really believe in his mortality because he had survived so long. And I think that finally caught up with him. I’m not sure. I don’t know exactly. People ask me that a lot, and it’s funny that I don’t have a factual answer because that’s a question I didn’t ask. I didn’t say why now, really. I kind of did. I kind of asked, but I didn’t really dig into the depths of that. Why now? I think I felt so grateful that he was finally talking. I didn’t want I it didn’t occur to me as why now. It just felt like the right time, I think. I it felt like he was ready. And it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy to get him to start talking. He told me when I said I wanna know about the war. He said, all you need to know about the war is my feet were frozen for a hundred and seventy two days. And I said, I’m sure there’s more dad. And back and forth we went, and I think that these conversations are really hard to get started. And these deeper conversations of sharing our deeper selves, they’re they’re hard to get started. And they take time and they take drawing out And we went back and forth for a couple hours at my kitchen table while we ate our tuna sandwich, and he finally started to talk. So I do think I do think patience is really required when we want to. Process with someone else or understand someone else more deeply.
And persistence. Patients and persistence.
Victoria Volk: The parent that you were before these conversations versus the parent after? How do you think that shifted things for you?
Becky Ellis: That’s a great question. I mentioned that I I thought my dad said or or I I said that I thought my dad would think everything was fine, and I would say we don’t have any issues. We’re fine. Look around. I thought that I had escaped my childhood. And I realized in the process that I had been hiding from it, that I hadn’t really escaped it at all, that I had carefully curated this life. As an escape from it, but it was really like a bunker and I was hiding from my life. And I have a lot of regret about role modeling that for my daughters. My father raised me in his likeness they say veteran father warrior daughter. And I think in a lot of ways, that’s true. And I can be very competent strident, capable, and assertive. And knowing that about me, you wouldn’t think that I didn’t have a voice because I can perform as a very strong woman, but I really wasn’t voicing that person you asked me about at the beginning, that five year old inside me, she had no voice in my life. And while there were times when I’d go to model in in domestic issues, I didn’t really have my voice who I was I was hiding from myself, and I have a lot of regret about role modeling that for my children. And after going through the process. And my process included talking with my father and writing my memoir, and there was so much grief that was processed in those in that time. I feel like sometimes I even grieve the person I was before that whole process started. Because she gets her life sometimes more easily, not more joyfully or more fully, but more easily than I do now sometimes. Right? I mean, once we process everything. I think we’re much deeper feelers and deeper thinkers and all of that. And and we I speak for myself and living my life much more fully and not hiding from it, but it’s scary. You know? I talk about living an openhearted life, and that takes work. That takes work every single day. And it’s hard and it takes courage and all of those things. So sometimes I grieve who I was before this whole process began for me. And I think my children absolutely have seen a shift and my relationship with them has changed. And I’ve learned how to have the deep messy complicated conversations where we can understand each other. And they can see me for my experience and understand me better for the parent I am. And I can see them for their experience and understand them better for the childhood they had and not the one that I had. Because I think for a while I was putting my own childhood experience on them, but they didn’t have my childhood experience. They don’t know what it’s like to get your teeth drilled without Nova King. You know, thank goodness they don’t know. So I was kind of mothering from a place of that they had experienced some of the trauma I had when they hadn’t. So we’re able to have those complicated conversations now and I feel like I I see them for for who they are.
Not for how I was. That makes sense?
Victoria Volk: No. It does, completely. I resonate with that too.
Becky Ellis: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You had talked about you mentioned the word regret and did your dad ever share any of, like, what his greatest regret was? Or I imagine he had probably many, but any of that he shared outright with you?
Becky Ellis: Was it really a man that talked about that, to be honest? I can’t I think he had so much deep regret and grief for the things that he couldn’t control. And I don’t think he looked at life as regrets. And one of the last things he said to me was, We all did the best we could. I I think he really believed that. I believe that. I believe that we’re all doing the best that we can do with the tools and the skills and the situations we’ve been given. And I think because he really believed that, that he wasn’t really filled with too much regret.
Victoria Volk: One of my recent episodes. It was episode two zero two with Yvonne Caputo. Her dad was a World War II vet and she had talked about how her dad opening up to her about his experiences in the war and things. It was the catalyst for them to really have these deeper conversations and and particularly for him his end of life. Was that the same experience for you?
Becky Ellis: Absolutely. It was. Because I was so guarded toward him, you know, I I think every little girl and every woman wants their father’s love so deeply. And so I felt like I had a loving relationship with my father and I I fought for that probably every day of my life, but I was so guarded against him that when we started talking And when we started talking, it was not we didn’t go deep fast. It was, you know, he rattled off. DAF Sergeant, First battalion company, see four hundred fifteenth regiment, a hundred and fourth infantry division. But he said it hard and fast like he had said it at thousand times before. And then I had to stop right there and say, wait a second. I don’t even know what you just said. I don’t know what that means.
And so we talked about kind of the surface level stuff of how armies are divided, and how many men were really in his unit. And when he told me his mortality rate, I was like, hang on, do the math for me. I don’t understand what how you get to three hundred percent if you’re alive and all that kind of stuff. And then we started going after a time into the deeper places. And it would be a curiosity of mine and wanting to know more about a person or experience and trying to fully understand it. But I wasn’t sharing my experience at all with him. I was just taking and listening and holding space. But then after he started getting into some of the deeper things, I started dropping my guard, and I started sharing my deeper self with him. And so him opening up was definitely the catalyst for me being able to share my deeper stories and my deeper questions with him because I was not going to when he said, do we have any issues? I was not going to start with, yes, I have this issue because I expected And and honestly, I received when I first would bring things up. He would say things like, oh, come on. You weren’t neglect. Did. You you you know, you had the most fun of anybody, you know. And this was his narrative.
Like, so not really. Like, let’s let’s talk about this. Like, this was my experience, you know. And and he defended against that, you know. You know, oh, you kids have the run of the house kind of a thing. You tore around the basement, you know, that kind of stuff. And and we did get to the deeper places. I think he did have an understanding of my me and my story in the end.
Victoria Volk: Did he exit this life as he wanted? No.
Becky Ellis: I was with my father when he passed away, and I had the privilege to be with another friend when she passed away. So I’ve been with two people. And I’ve had other friends pass away. And someone once said to me, we die the way we live. And I believe that is the case with my father. I believe that he exited the way he lived, hanging on to the very end, fighting it all the way. Fighting for his life until his last prep. I don’t know if that’s how he wanted it. The the setup for how he passed away, which was at home. Is what he definitely insisted on. It wasn’t about my father wanted. It’s what my father got. What my father wanted he got. That’s the way things went. He refused to go into any kind of assisted care of any kind and he he passed away in his home and that is what he wanted. But as far as that deeper place of surrender, I don’t know. I don’t know if he talked there. See if I said talking in the last couple days of his life. He entered that phase of death where he stopped talking. And I hope he found some peace in that.
Victoria Volk: How has this changed? How you’re approaching the relationship? How is the writing experience? And subsequent passing of your father changed how you approach the relationship with your mother?
Becky Ellis: My mother’s been super supportive of my writing all along. I think she’s read every draft of my story. And her of my book. And I wanted her to be a part of it, and she’s definitely a primary character in it. While she wasn’t for a while, I was given advice from an editor that said Even when one parent has passed away, they are still a part of the story and you have to make them a central figure in your story because they are a central figure in your life even when they’re gone.
And so she became a significant part of my story. And I think that he is a person who is sort of a supportive person to many people. She was a nurse. And she played the role of nurse in her life also. Kind of that very important person, but that doesn’t get a lot of credit. For how strong she had to be to endure what she endured because my father really went to battle with her And I think that having her story be read now is exposing her in ways that she didn’t anticipate. And those ways are that people are seeing her now. Her family, there’s so many things she never even told her. Family. And I think she’s being seen now for what she went through, and I think she’s feeling the compassion of others. I she came to a book reading I did in the San Francisco area in Oakland. And reader went up to her and said, you are the hero of this story. And I wanna thank you for that. And it was so deeply touching to me. So I think she’s coming around to realizing what an important person she really was. In my life. I’m sure she felt like she was, but she had was in a really hard position, and I think she’s being acknowledged for that. Now, and I think that’s probably deeply meaningful to her. I feel like there’s there’s something that I have learned that we all wanna be seen and heard. So I think my mother feels seen and heard now, but even more than being seen and heard, I think we wanna be felt. And the experience with my father, you know, it’s that I feel you, feeling me, when we are felt, when we can feel someone feeling us, I think that is where the magic happens and that is where healing truly happens. It’s not just being seen and heard. That’s one thing. But being felt is something completely different. And I think my mother feels felt now. I think her experience feels felt by others. To her. And I think that is healing.
Victoria Volk: It’s that well of compassion and empathy that pours out.
Becky Ellis: Mhmm. Did
Victoria Volk: she ever go on to find love again?
Becky Ellis: She did. She’s been married for, I don’t know, over forty years now. Yeah. She didn’t marry someone that much unlike my father. Oh, that’s a little interesting, but she’s married. Yes. Maybe another book. Maybe.
Victoria Volk: Different kind of book. So out of all of this experience. And, I mean, we didn’t even get to the other grief experiences you’ve experienced in your life because what I know about grief is it’s like luggage. If it stacks up and we drag it with us, And if you’re open to sharing it, you know, those other experiences, please do. But, oh, go ahead.
Becky Ellis: Well, there’s so much, you know, grieving is such a central part of the human experience. And we feel like it’s so intimate and so unique and personal. That I think we try to do it alone. And I think it’s so much more healing and powerful when we can share it with others, which is why I appreciate the work that that you’re doing so much. And I feel like there’s so much to creep in life, you know. I feel like, you know, the paradox of there is no light without darkness. And there is no joy without grief. And the more grief you feel, I feel like, the more joy you can so feel. And so when I say there’s so much to grieve in life, it’s not that oh, life is sad and horrible and everything’s darkness. There is so much light and joy and life too. And holding both of those, I think is is where I wanna be. And that I think is mental health is when you can hold both of those. But there’s so much degree even about the loss of my childhood. And the, you know, I grew up way too fast. So many of us grow up way too fast. And the idea of grieving that, I think is important. You know, like, I think grief is so important to do and feel so that you can feel the joy on the other end of that grief. And I often grieve like the woman and person I could have become if only. You know, and then fill in the blank. If only I had a father who, this or that, if only I had a supportive child If only I had the opportunity for these things as a child, you know, there’s so many if only as I could go in and I often grieve like I wonder who I could have become if I didn’t have all this trauma in my childhood. That’s one that I still work with, you know. Because there are a lot of trauma triggers out there. But but, you know, those are some that I think about about this in terms of grief and and what? And I feel like, you know, I feel like our culture doesn’t doesn’t address grief or death very well because grief is really the death of anything. Right? It’s the death of the childhood or the opportunity for to be this kind of person or whatever. And a a friend of mine once taught me, she said, you know, Becky Flowers or a deaf practice. I said, oh, say more about that. She said, well, when you receive flowers, they’re going to die. And what kind of person are you? Are you the kind of person that throws out the whole book pay when a couple start wilting? Or do you take them out one by one as they die? And what do you do with them? You know? You just toss the whole bunch in the trash. And I’m like, wow. Like, that’s kind of amazing. So now whenever I get flowers, I use it as a duck practice in a beautiful way. You know? I don’t cry over them and spend days mourning the death of the flowers, but I acknowledge that this is the process, death is human experience. And it’s something that we’re all going to get to experience at some point. And it’s an opportunity, I think. I think we need these opportunities to practice.
Victoria Volk: What’s interesting that you bring that up? The flowers when I was going through my when I first started my grief processing journey, I started to collect plants. I’m now a hoarder of plants. Why? Because plants don’t die? Plants don’t die. I mean, they can. I mean, if you’re not gonna care for and nurture them. Right? But it’s something to nurture and care for. And I think that can also be a practice in giving love to something that maybe you’re struggling to give in other aspects of your life. So I think that was that’s the significance of plants for me.
Becky Ellis: That’s beautiful. Some of my plants die. In fact, I’d love to garden. And sometimes I get the plant that’s not supposed to survive in my climate, but I’m determined, but I’m gonna keep it alive anyway, and I don’t. And so it’s a reminder though that we need nurturing and care and the right environment to survive.
Right? We can’t survive in all environments. We just can’t.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. We’re not built to. You know, there there is going to be these environmental things that will challenge our ability to thrive, right, just like plants.
Becky Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. There are environmental things that challenge her ability to survive. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You kind of alluded to it already, what grief has taught you, but is there anything else you would like to elaborate on that?
Becky Ellis: I think grief has taught me to embrace it, to embrace the depth of it, and and to go to the places that it takes me and to be open to what it’s going to teach me. To embrace it and feel it fully. It’s not something I think we I think we move through it. I don’t think we ever moved beyond it. And I I did say I think it’s part of the human condition. And I think a lot of us try to look away from that, look away from you know, the darker parts of the human condition. And I think that’s avoidant. And I think it blocks us from feeling some of the best parts and experiencing some of the best parts of the human condition too. My my effort is to live it all fully.
Victoria Volk: On that note, what’s next for you? What are you looking forward to?
Becky Ellis: You know, every day, I look forward to the conversations I can have where we share our deeper stories. And what’s next is me sharing some of that with an an ongoing format. I mean, sharing some of that with the people in my community. I’m I’m starting a newsletter authors are told to do this, but I thought I don’t even know what to say to people. Honestly, I know it sounds a little bit loudicrist, but sometimes I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what people want to know from me. I don’t know what I know, you know. And so it’s the thing that readers keep asking me about is how did you have this conversation walk us through it? Because I really wanna talk to my mom and the only thing she’s gonna talk to me about is the broken furnace or I really wanna talk to my dad or my brother and he won’t stop talking about football. And so I’ve been in those situations and plenty of them. And so I’ve done a lot of research and done a lot of exploring and discovering on how do we get to those deeper places with our neighbors and our friends and the people who we’re not well known to, but we’re around all the time. How do we do that? And so I’ve started a newsletter where I’m gonna share the deep conversations that I’m having. And one of them is one I had with my mom on her ninety fourth birthday. And there’s a that’s what’s immediately next for me.
Yeah.
Victoria Volk: When you were talking about, you know, see if I can recall my thought that I had that escaped my brain and as I was listening to you. But on kind of the the threat of regret. Is there a part of you that wishes that you could have had that conversation and maybe open yourself sooner to trust me, I believe that things happen in divine timing. And but at the same time, that doesn’t change how we feel. Right? And do you have any regret or wishing that those conversations would have happened sooner with your dad that
Becky Ellis: There are a few things that I’m absolutely certain about, but this is one of them. And the answer is yes. I wish I could have. I I end the first part of my book, my childhood with when I come back I studied abroad when I was a sophomore in college and after my study abroad in London, I traveled through Europe. And while my father said, don’t you step foot in Germany, it’s not safe there. I, of course, went to Germany. And I guess it’s gonna do what I wanted as a twenty year old. And when I was in Germany, I met an SS officer and talk about divine timing. And It was such a profound experience, but I was with two girlfriends, and he came to our table and sat down with us in a German Brewhouse, and he wanted to talk to us. And he cried. It’s almost like he was flash forwarding for me what I was gonna get to do with my dad fifty or not fifty, whatever, thirty years later. And he confessed his his he talked about his regret. He confessed his not the acts that he did, but the his participation in the war. And he suggested that we go to docile. And so the next day, my girlfriends and I went to docile. And anyone who’s been to a concentration camp museum. Well, it’s a very moving experience. And when I was there, I thought, oh, god, this is why my dad wouldn’t talk about it. This is what? How could he talk about this? How can anybody talk it? It’s so horrible. It’s so hard to process and feel and talk about. But when I came back, I had a determination that I was going to find out if this is why he wouldn’t talk about it. And I thought this is my opening to talk about it. Like, now I have an understanding. Right? As a twenty year old, I thought, oh, now I get it. Because my father’s division did liberate Nordhuizen concentration camps. So while it wasn’t doco, it was a horrible experience for anybody that was there. And I thought, oh, this is this is my opening. I can I can talk to him now? But within seconds, So I tried. You know, I walked in the door, I haven’t seen him in months, and, you know, this is what I wanted to do, and I had this agenda, and I thought this is what I was gonna do. And I really wanted it, but he shut me down absolutely and immediately. In the way that he could shut someone down, which was, are you trying to ruin this beautiful day? You know? And that piercing look and that steely cold. I’d say he my father is like a glacier that I was trying to crack open with a pick xerist. Teaspoon or something, you know. But but I wish that we could have had the conversation back then. I wish I could have gone through this process back then. That’s one of the things, like, I wonder who I would have been if only. I wonder how I would have spent the last thirty years. And I also believe in divine timing like you do. And so I accept the fact that it happened when it was supposed to happen. And I appreciate that.
Victoria Volk: I’ve been to taco
Becky Ellis: to Cadia. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing. This has been a lovely conversation. Much of it I resonate with and and I wish I would have read your book before we chatted. Is there anything that you feel like you didn’t get to share that you think that is on your heart or that you feel would be beneficial to listeners.
Becky Ellis: I don’t think so. I just encourage people to out the conversation, say the thing that they’re not saying. I think most people have something that they’re not saying, a deeper part of themselves that they’re not sharing. And I think it’s important that we start doing that with each other in safe places.
Victoria Volk: It’s like we can hold the fear of how the person will respond, but we can also have the courage that if they don’t respond how we wish, Now it’s releasing the expectations. Right?
Becky Ellis: Right.
Victoria Volk: So it does take two to have a deep conversation, and it might just be that one person isn’t ready. And like you said, to accept that when it will happen is is perfectly when it will happen is perfect timing, right, of when it will happen and to accept that
Becky Ellis: patience and persistence. Patients and persistence. Yeah. Yeah. Where
Victoria Volk: can people find you if they would like to connect with you? And where can they find your book? All those things?
Becky Ellis: I think the easiest place is probably on my website, which is becky ellis dot net. And that’s kind of a portal for all the social media stuff and my book can be found where at bookstores and e retailers Amazon bookshop dot org, those kinds of places. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Well, I will link to that in the show notes. And thank you again for being my guest.
Becky Ellis: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I loved our conversation. I really do appreciate the work you’re doing.
Victoria Volk: And thank you for writing Little Avalanches.
Becky Ellis: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
