Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
We encounter moments that shape our journey in profound ways. Ann Hince’s story is a testament to such transformation—a narrative woven with threads of grief, self-awareness, and, ultimately, healing.
In this week’s episode, I had the privilege of hearing from Ann Hince, an inspiring author, speaker, and spiritual guide. She opened up about her path to healing after enduring profound trauma and grief.
Key Points Discussed:
- Ann’s Transformation: After releasing deep-seated grief from childhood traumas—including finding her mother dead—Ann experienced physical changes in her body.
- Childhood Trauma: Ann opens up about the multiple layers of grief stemming from being born with a physical condition, given up for adoption into a family already dealing with loss, experiencing a house fire, attending boarding school under challenging circumstances, dealing with alcoholic parents, and ultimately losing her mother at age 19.
- Discovery Journey: The pivotal moment came when Ann realized that past traumas were affecting her present life. This epiphany occurred during an altercation, leaving her mind spinning uncontrollably for three days.
- Healing Techniques:
- Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT): Introduced by a holistic physician who helped reduce stress associated with traumatic memories.
- Feeling Your Feelings: A method where Ann learned to focus on physical sensations related to emotions until they released.
- Spirituality & Self-Awareness:
- Developing self-awareness through healing practices contributed to exploring spirituality.
- The realization that we are not our bodies and that there is a distinction between body and soul/spirit sparked further interest in spiritual texts.
The connection between inner tranquility and physical health couldn’t be more evident in Ann’s experience: releasing emotional tension nurtured mental well-being. It led to astonishing physical changes—including growing taller!
Her story underscores how self-awareness can catalyze healing across all dimensions—emotional freedom isn’t just about feeling better mentally; it can manifest physically, too.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
The Healing Power of Emotional Freedom: Ann Hince Journey from Trauma to Transformation
The Unseen Scars: When we speak of scars, it’s often the visible ones that come to mind. But what about the scars on our psyche? The emotional wounds that shape our lives in ways we can scarcely imagine? Ann Hince, an author and spiritual teacher, knows these all too well. Her life began with a physical deformity and continued through a maze of grief, instability, and trauma.
A Pivotal Discovery: It wasn’t until she faced intense emotions triggered by a business altercation that Anne realized her reactions were rooted in childhood events. This epiphany set her on a path toward healing—a journey she recently shared with Grieving Voices.
Emotional Release Through EFT: One powerful tool in her arsenal was the Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT). By dedicating just an hour daily to this practice, Ann started addressing deeply buried emotional memories. Imagine facing your fears head-on every day for sixty minutes—daunting but transformative.
From Reactive to Peaceful: Through consistent use of EFT, something remarkable happened; not only did Anne’s emotional state improve significantly—she became less reactive and more peaceful—but this tranquility rippled outwards into her family life as well.
Growing… Literally!: What’s fascinating is how inner peace translated into physical changes for Anne. She reported growing three-quarters of an inch taller as she released tension held within her body!
Applications for You:
- Start Small: If you’re looking to address past traumas or simply want better control over your emotions, consider starting small with practices like EFT.
- Consistency is Key: Just as it did for Anne, dedicating time each day can lead to profound improvements.
- Mind-Body Connection: Remember that our mental states have tangible effects on our bodies—seeking peace within might be reflected outwardly!
Ann Hince shows us that while trauma may begin early in life—and its impact may seem insurmountable—with dedication and self-awareness tools like EFT at hand, transformation isn’t just possible; it’s achievable.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Welcome to Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Ann Hince, she is an author, a public speaker, and a spiritual teacher. She shares the story of how she has shifted her skull bones and grown three quarters of an inch as a result of her search for inner peace. And she wants you to know that if she has done it, you can too. Thank you so much for being here. I’m definitely intrigued about your bio, and I’m sure anyone listening is kinda tilted their head to the side and probably as curious themselves. So let’s dig right into the meat and potatoes of what brings you to grieving voices.
Ann Hince: Okay. Thanks for having me, Victoria. It’s great to be here. Yes, I think I would be surprised if I heard that too, like, twenty years ago because I didn’t know what I could do now was possible. But it started by releasing the trauma and releasing the grief from all my childhood traumas, including finding my mother dead on the bathroom floor when I was nineteen. So that’s where it started, but I just my my self awareness deepened as I went through the process of releasing all that trauma all that burden that I’ve been carrying and I just kept going deeper and deeper to a place where now I can put my awareness inside the connective tissue, inside my goal and I can release tension stored in there and I can actually hear and feel the release, you know, sounds It’s like a chiropractor making adjustments or it sounds like old fabric ripping that I’m releasing the tension in the connective tissue. So it’s allowed me to kind of adjust my body or realign my body. I just didn’t know this was something that was possible. And it all started with the grief.
Victoria Volk: Let’s rewind the clock to your childhood before you found your mother what were the grief experiences that kind of made that loss of your mother the pinnacle?
Ann Hince: Well, there were multiple. I mean, it started off with actually my birth because I was born with my right foot up against my right chin. So I had Oh. Kind of physical therapy for the first six weeks of my life and after to that, after my foot was back to normal, somewhat, I was handed over for adoption. And I was handed over for adoption into a family that had already suffered a loss because they had well multiple losses actually. But they had adopted a little boy, so they had, you know, my adopted brother who was two years older than me. But then they adopted another little girl. And they had her for quite a while. I don’t know how long, but in back in England at that point, the birth mother could change her mind up to six months. And the birth mother did change her mind.
So they had to hand that little girl back to her mother, and I was the replacement in the family for that loss. So Like
Victoria Volk: like, we often replace puppies. Right? When we lose when, you know, a dog dies, well, we’ll just go get get a new one. Right? So you were the Right placement.
Ann Hince: Yeah. And I think, you know, after a loss like that, you know, as a mother, I think you don’t tend to get as connected to the replacement child just in case the birth mother does that again. Right? So again after six months, my birth mother did not change her mind, so they kept me. And then we started traveling around the world because my dad worked for an international company.
So we moved to Barbados and then to Sierra Leone in West Africa. And while we were there, we had a house fire. And I was the one who woke up and found the flames coming through my veteran Law, so I was one alerted everyone. And as part of the process, I actually went to the top of the stairs. I was about three or four maybe.
Victoria Volk: Oh my gosh.
Ann Hince: To the top of the stairs and called down to my dad who was in the kitchen and I said there’s a fire in my bedroom. And my dad said, no, I don’t believe you or there can’t be. No, there can’t be. You know, which which as a child, you know, as an adult, it sounds like, well, that’s kind of a reasonable thing to say. But as a child, that starts you not believing yourself. Right? Something I said which was clearly true. Right? No child would make something like that up. Was disbelieved by someone who’s supposed to be the person who protects you. So, you know, that started its whole. You know, roll a case for it its own. But then, you know, life carried on. So we moved from there. We moved to Hong Kong. And when I was in Hong Kong, at the age of nine, I was sent to boarding school in England. And I was sent to my brother’s boarding school, which was a boys boarding school. So for my first year, I was the only girlboarder at this boys boarding school.
Victoria Volk: And they allowed it? Like, that was allowed?
Ann Hince: They did. They had Day Girls who would come, you know, for lessons during the day and then go home. And my bedroom was in Stick Bay. That was my my bedroom. And I was teased mercilessly by those boys.
It was it was horrific. It was so so so bad. So, you know, that was that was a big part of that trauma. And then in my teenage years, both my parents became alcoholics. So life at home was hell in my mind.
That’s what I call it. It’s like it’s just hell. And then my mother got cancer. We didn’t talk about it. We talked about it one time.
When we found out she had cancer, we found out it was too late to do anything. So we never talked about it again, which is looking back, it’s very odd, but that is the way my family behaved. We just didn’t talk about anything deep at all. And then I woke up one morning when I was nineteen and found her dead on the bathroom floor. So at that point, I was the only one in the house, my brother, who was two years old at twenty one was at his girlfriend’s house, and my dad was working in Saudi Arabia, and we were back in England.
So I was the only one in the house and I had to tell everyone else what had happened and it was, yeah, it was pretty bad.
Victoria Volk: You know, in all the years, I’ve been doing this podcast and all of the examples of grief that I’ve had. There have been house fires mentioned, and But it’s like, let this be a reminder to you listening of The grief that people experience is so vast and you just never know what people have experienced in their lives at first glance. And it just sounds like your entire childhood was just a cesspool of grief and trauma. And so I’m so sorry for you that that was your experience. And I don’t say that to, like, poor you pity as pity, but it’s, like, I firmly believe because my childhood wasn’t the best either, but, you know, I’m not comparing and we don’t wanna compare. But I think those experience are what create who we who we become. And we have a lot of say and choice in that. And so I commend you for sitting here and having this conversation with me to getting to this place. That you have despite all of those experiences of
Ann Hince: Yeah. I mean, the only thing right? If people hear my like, the outside of my childhood, oh, I lived in Barbados, and my staff worker, and Hong Kong, and it sounds exciting, it sounds it sounds amazing. But once you, you know, you open the lid and you go underneath, it’s like, yeah, there’s a lot of things that really weren’t that great. So, absolutely, it made me who I am today, but I didn’t realize until I was in my late thirties. That it was affecting me, right, until I had two young boys. Mhmm. And the boys who were growing up right, and they were coming towards that age that those boys at my boarding school were. I was scared of boys at the age of nine three thirty seen because of what they had done to me, and I didn’t want to be afraid of my sons. So I knew I knew I had to change because it was getting too close.
Victoria Volk: Well, until our children have a way of kind of opening up our wounds and insecurities and all of those things that we’ve suppressed.
Ann Hince: Absolutely. Yes. That’s part of the benefits of parenthood for sure. Yes, they they trigger us in so many ways.
Victoria Volk: What was your experience? Because I’m curious of because I imagine growing up, did you how did you know that you were adopted from a very young age?
Ann Hince: I didn’t know until I was thirteen.
Victoria Volk: Oh my gosh. At boarding school.
Ann Hince: And I met my mother when I was seventeen. My birth mother, she’s still alive actually in New Zealand, and my adopted mother died when I was nineteen. So, yes, it was kind of like this two year overlap where I had two mothers and then kind of reverted back to my birth month. It was a very strange story.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So can you share a little bit about how that experience went of finding out that you were adopted?
Ann Hince: It was pretty wild. My mind my mind just started to play with all these different possibilities. You know, what could have life be like? Because it was not very much fun in that moment, Mario, as hell. And I just just imagining all these different possibilities. It it was yeah. It was it was difficult because I wanted to know more. And and thankfully, I didn’t have to wait that long. I only had to wait four years to find out that actually my birth mother was pretty normal, which is really nice to know. So, yeah, it was tricky. It was tricky for both of us because my brother didn’t know either, and he was fifteen at the time.
Victoria Volk: How did you find out? Like, I’m curious, like, did you ask questions?
Ann Hince: No. We were moving back to the same place that we had lived like a little tiny village that we had lived when we’d been adopted, and my mother was afraid that someone would say something. Mhmm. So, yeah, it makes you wonder if that hadn’t happened when or whether they would have told us at all because, you know, we didn’t didn’t look that like, but we didn’t look that different. We all had kind of the same color here, you know.
So it wasn’t it wasn’t totally obvious.
Victoria Volk: That wasn’t something you had questioned, you know, like
Ann Hince: I had
Victoria Volk: Did you
Ann Hince: get a little bit only because I was pretty nosy and it looked through a lot of my mother’s papers. And I thought I had found something that said my brother was adopted. So then I thought, okay. Well, he’s adopted, but I’m not. So did he count? I think he had seen the same paper, so he had questioned it. Yes. And we were so I mean, physically, we didn’t look that different, but, you know, emotionally, intellectually, we were very different.
Victoria Volk: And knowing then at such a influential age. Right? Thirteen. It’s preteen. And having been at boarding school and all of your wife experience up to that point, which I imagine and moving so much. Right? Like, it’s really difficult to create connections with people. And then to find out you’re adopted and it’s like, does that make you question your connection with your parents, and then you’re half, you know, your brother. And so what role did connection play as you went into your young adulthood and eventually meeting someone and having your own children, I’m just curious how that path kind of evolved.
Ann Hince: Yeah. There wasn’t a lot of collect connection, and you’re right, when you move so much, especially back in those days without cell phones and social media, Right? You’d make friends in one place and then you’d move to another place and and they were gone and you had to start all over again. So I I did not have much connection with my parents. My dad is now what she’d call a narcissist. I mean, it was all about him. He was always right. She couldn’t question him. And then he was an alcoholic. He would just drink all the time. So there was no connection there and and not really with my mother either. So yeah, there wasn’t really much connection with anyone. For some reason, I kinda lucked on my husband, I it was some connection that just happened. I kind of knew that he was for me and and That’s when I was eighteen, he actually met my mother before she died, so and we’re still together. So, yeah, I’m not quite sure how that connection happened and how it stayed? I think it was kind of meant to be.
Victoria Volk: What was your spiritual life like at that point?
Ann Hince: It wasn’t any. There there was nothing. I mean, I questioned things. You know, I’d been brought up in the church. She’d been like, I hate it. It was part of the boarding school life. Right? You had to go to church on the weekends. So religion was out. I actually I hated it. And you know, I I questioned spirituality. I I thought about things possibly deeper than some other people that I know, but it was just it was not really a part of my life. I was a software engineer, you know. I wear a look at ballet. Yes. But I was an also also an artist. I kind of had more of a balance, I think, than a lot of people. But Yeah. Nothing really hit home until my late thirties. I think I was just supposed to go through all that and and just be scared all the time and have PTSD and and just had to go through that until I had this experience that kind of woke me up. Do you remember the moment? Yeah. It was kind of a three day moment. It was it was what I call a business altercation with two other mothers at my boys and these mothers were not like me, but I was the scared mother on the inside always and they were self confident, self assured authority type women in my mind So in some senses a little bit like my dad, but they told me I’d done something wrong, and I could not stop my mind spinning. It just went over and over and over. Like, everything I’d said, everything I’d done, everything Ned said, all the things I could have done differently, just all these different permutations and I couldn’t sleep for three days. And it was the end of that period of time that I realized, okay, first of all, this is not normal. Most people would not react of this intensely to something that really wasn’t a big deal. I also realized it felt a little bit like how I would react in childhood when my dad would tell me I’d done something wrong. So that was the first little opening, little inkling that maybe something for my childhood was still affecting me. And so that that was the beginning. That’s what made me start looking.
Victoria Volk: What was the first thing you uncovered for yourself?
Ann Hince: Well, I didn’t really know what to do. Right? I knew I had to do something, but I didn’t know what. So I happened to go to a doctor’s appointment in that time frame. I don’t remember why I went to him. It was nothing to do with emotions or memories or anything like that. But he recognized I was more stressed than I should. Have been. And he was a holistic physician. Right? So he had more tools in his toolbox than most doctors do. And he recognized it was mine. I was more stressed, so he asked me on a scale of zero three what my stress level was. Right? Thinking it shouldn’t be that high because I was a stay at home mother with two healthy young boys. You know? Parenthood, it’s difficult but it shouldn’t have been that stressful. And I said it was an eight out of ten, and then he asked me why. And it was that question that made me realize oh, it was finally my mother dead on the bathroom floor when I was nineteen because the tears from that event were still just under the surface all these years later because I had not dealt with it. So he happened to know this technique that’s called EFT. Short for emotional freedom technique. It’s also called tapping. Are you familiar with it?
Victoria Volk: I am.
Ann Hince: Okay. So he tapped with me. In that office there for about fifteen minutes talking through finding my mother on the bathroom floor and and not having talked about the cancer and all those different aspects. And I walked away from that appointment being able to tell the story in her in my mind for the first time ever. Without the emotions there, And that’s when I realized, oh, we just hold those emotions and those memories physically in our body. And we can let them go and that was that was eye opening for me and that was that was the first step on my journey. So
Victoria Volk: What was the next step?
Ann Hince: Well, I went home that day and I went online and I learned everything I could about EFT. Because as I said, I was a software engineer, I like to know things worked before I spent a lot of time invested in it. And it was really nice to know the guy who developed it, Gary Craig. He was a chemical engineer, so that gave me more confidence. And and he gave it away for free. So anyone could go online and learn about it, and that was that was just amazing to me. So I learned everything I could about it, but I wanted to try it out. I didn’t necessarily believe that that fifteen minutes with this doctor was really, you know, maybe it was a fluke. I wanted to know for sure that it worked. So at the time, I had a seventeen year old cat at home. His kidneys were starting to fail. And we’ve been told we had to give them a daily saline shot, like an injection of saline solution, and our hated needles. I’d had so many from living all over the world. I just was petrified of them. So the first time I gave them that shot, my hand was shaking so badly. I didn’t wanna have to do it every day. It’s just it it wasn’t happen. So I thought, okay. Well, let me try out this technique. I’ve learned about it. Let me actually put in an action. So I did. I tapped about every aspect of it, which is something you do with the f t. So I tapped about my hand shaking. I tapped about my fear of hurting the cat. And I talked about all the memories from all the injections I’d had in different places around the world, you know, ones in boarding school in the different countries. And the next day, when I gave him the shot, the needle just slid right in. All that fear that it’d be living inside of me the day before had totally disappeared. And that’s when I realized, that’s the freedom I want. I I wanna get beyond all of those emotions and I wanna just feel that piece that I felt at that moment. Mhmm. So that’s when I started using EFT every day. I started noticing when I was emotional during the day. And then I would tap and bring myself back to peace. And, you know, the days went by and I started to notice that I was feeling more peaceful. But I wanted it to go faster. I wanted it more and I wanted it faster. So what I did is I wrote down every emotional memory I could think of from my childhood. Like, so all the traumas, the big traumas, the little traumas, the stings, my dad would say, you know, like, you know, the the one we they used back in those days, you know, stop crying or I’ll give you something to cry about.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Ann Hince: Or
Victoria Volk: my aunt still used that.
Ann Hince: Oh, shame. My aunt used to say shame on you. You know, that was one of her favorite sayings. And so I would I tap through all of those one each night for about an hour to an hour and a half each night, so because I was determined to change. And just things started changing more rapidly.
I was just becoming less reactionary, which was really nice. So I was more peaceful And when I was more peaceful, my household was more peaceful, which was really, really nice. So that that’s kind of the first step on my journey.
Victoria Volk: I can see that there was ripples in what you were learning and uncovering for yourself and just how you were changing, your environment was changing, how did that evolve over time then?
Ann Hince: Well, we hear that phrasing, you know, you gotta change yourself and when yourself when you change yourself, your world changes. So, I mean, that is absolutely true. So as as time went by, my boys became more peaceful than they hadn’t been totally not peaceful before, but But because I was so reactionary, right, I would react to them, and then they would react to me reacting. Right? So if I’m peaceful, and I don’t react to something that happens, then they don’t have to react to that. So they can feel free to be their true selves. And it it just changes the whole dynamic of the family and it’s really nice to experience. But, you know, talk to people sometimes, they don’t believe that that’s the case. So you actually have to walk down that path somewhat. Right? So you have to realize, you have to be able to look back and see where you came from. To see where you are now. So you have some perspective. And then you could realize that it’s true, that it’s really the case So if you haven’t done any inner work before, you might not believe that things change. You actually have to do some of the work to to really believe that it does work.
Victoria Volk: How did that experience and learning EFT change your spirituality then? Because where you had none and you didn’t really have a faith practice and things like that, what how did that start to change?
Ann Hince: That kind of grew over time. As I what I realized the Feet is doing is opening up the subconscious mind, which is really our body. It’s stored in our body. And as our subconscious mind opens, it’s kind of one in the same thing. Our self awareness deepens. So when I started this journey, I had so many barriers around me like emotional barriers, protective barriers, shields, that I really didn’t know how I felt. I didn’t have any self awareness. And as I did more, more tapping, more, more eFT, I became aware of my emotions, right, because I’d been checking on myself multiple times a day. And underneath that, the next layer of self awareness is the physical sensations underneath the emotions. So for example, if we’re feeling frustration, right, that’s just the words. But what we’re really describing is tension that we’re holding in our body in a certain place. That we give the name frustration to. Right? So this is kind of reversing that process. So when I’m feeling frustrated rated, I can feel tension in in the bottom of my ribcades in the in the solar plexus area. So I became aware at that level And then I started to use a different technique. I call it feeling your feelings, but I could only do it because I was aware of those sensations. And I had honed my ability to focus so I could focus on those sensations and just keep my focus there until it released. And so this is kind of the word I talk about as the second step on my journey. It’s it’s just a deeper level of self awareness. And and I will get back to the spirituality as this is a this is a process. As I said, I had I have this engineering mind, so you know, I had to experience it myself myself first in order to put words to it and really understand what was happening. So I would do that more and more instead of doing EFT. If I felt myself feeling some kind of emotion, I would just stop and feel those emotions. Feel those sensations and allow them to release. It felt actually really good. And so I would lay on the sofa and I would bring, at this point, collective from us to mine because I’d worked through my childhood. So I’d bring things like nine eleven to my right. We all had our own individual experience of that collective trauma. So I would feel all those sensations and allow them to release. And at some point, I became able to put my awareness inside my body after the tension had released. So imagine if you have a toothache or stomachache. Right? You can feel where that coming from. Right? You can tell where the pain is coming from. Well, once the pain has released, right, once the toothache or the stomachache gets gone, you can’t put your awareness back on it. Because there’s nothing calling your attention to it anymore. I could. I could feel inside my body. And what I realized I was doing eventually was, how do I put it? Well, it’s what I think of it is the original meaning of the term insight. Right? It’s inward sight or inside sight. And It was not me. Right? There were two parts of me at that point. There was my body and there was part of me that was looking inside. So I couldn’t be my body if I could also be focusing at one particular place inside my body. Right? So that’s when I realized we are two separate entities with the body and the soul. And there’s something we tune into as well, which I believe is you know, spirit. It’s whatever we want to call it, but we’re tuning into something using our instrument of the body. So that’s when I really started to become more interested in, you know, the spirituality aspect of it because I knew without a doubt that I was not my body, you know, which is something you hear a lot. But when you actually know it, you know, you really know it because it can’t be anything else, then, you know, becomes more interesting. So I started, you know, I started reading more spiritual texts, trying to relate my experience with what some of those spiritual texts to talk about. And I found that I could relate to some of it. So, yeah, it’s been an interesting journey.
Victoria Volk: And what that brings to my mind is the thought of consciousness and the controversy or the not controversy. I don’t even know how to say it. But, like, there’s
Ann Hince: I think they call it heart problem?
Victoria Volk: Well, there’s people that believe that, you know, either you believe that consciousness continues after you die, after you are no longer. In the body. Right? Like your soul is not in the body. And that’s what it comes that’s what comes to mind when you when I hear you talking is that it’s you’re connecting with your higher consciousness. It’s a connection of yeah. It it’s being an observer a neutral observer of the body. Right.
Ann Hince: So let me go a little further into this third step. The third step is when I was put my put my awareness inside my body. And it it was really wild when it started happening because I I knew it felt different. I knew it was different from what I was doing before, but I’d also never heard anyone talk about it. So it was just an louratory investigation for me. It was kind of fun, actually. And so I would put my focus inside my body and I would feel I would move my awareness around and I would find a place with tension, which I could tell was different from a place with no tension. So I find a place with tension I’d focus on it and allow it to release, which is exactly the same thing I was doing with the feeling the feelings. Right? I was feeling the sensation and allowing them to release. And even with EFT, we’re feeling what the words bring up as we tap. And we’re focusing on it and we’re allowing to release. So I’m just working at a deeper level of self awareness. So I would do this in my torso and it took me many, many months and then I was able to put my awareness inside my head, which for me was eye opening because the pain and the tension inside my left cheek was almost unbearable. I could only focus on it for like a second at a time because it was just so intense. And what I realized, it had been there my whole life. And it was attached through the connective tissue to my right foot, which had been up against my chin when I was born. Right? So the fascia or the connective tissue had not been released. The tension in it had not been released, and it was still tense all the way up through my right leg, over to the left side of my body, into my left cheek. And through tension in my the right of my neck. So I realized at that point how everything is so connected. Our body is so connected.
Victoria Volk: And for and for people listening because they might be confused now because you talked about your left foot, but then or your right foot, but then it was the left side. So Just explain that a little bit. I know what it means, but can you just elaborate for people who who may be hearing that and be like, well, how does that? You would think it’d be on the same side. So can you just explain that a little bit.
Ann Hince: Right. Well, the the connective tissue, you know, if you look online, the connective tissue just is connected throughout a whole body and kind of through sheets. If you think of pulling the skin off a piece of chicken breast. It’s that that kind of watery slimy tissue between that holds the two together. We have that tissue throughout our bodies. It’s all connected. That’s why it’s called connected tissue. So it’s connected throughout our body. So from my left cheek, it’s connected all the way across my body, down through my right leg. But it but it could potentially also be my left leg all the way up through my my left cheek.
It it just depends where that tension has been held in the body and how it’s been held. So so it’s really I mean, it was really interesting, right, to know that, okay, if I’m working on my right foot, I don’t actually necessarily have to work on my right foot. Right? Working on this pain in my left cheek is also working on my right foot because it’s releasing the tension all the way through the body. So I started doing that. I started focusing on that pain in my left cheek. Just longer and longer periods of time, just holding my awareness on it, allowing it to release over and over again, and that’s why one day I actually heard and felt this this release of the the connective tissue. It was actually kinda scary at the time because it it felt like something ripping. And that she’s thought what I was doing because I was afraid I was hurting myself. I had to do some research and realize, okay, it’s just a connection in the and it’s an adhesion in the connected tissue, and it’s okay.
So I kept doing that and over and over again. I feel releases in different places and and actually actually felt my skull bones relaxed at some point. Now I hadn’t known they weren’t relaxed. Until they relax. Right? Then I could feel, okay, they clearly had been tense before, and they needed to relax. And that’s when I had x rays taken two years ago, and I should see the changes that had happened, that my eye sockets had aligned, my jaw had aligned, my neck was straighter than it had ever been in my life. But I also at that point, because I was working in my head, I worked out, well, if I’m looking at somewhere inside my head, where am I looking from? Right? Because I could tell I was looking from somewhere to somewhere else.
Like, I try to work it out. Like, you know, my eyes above or below where I’m looking from, you know, where that doesn’t feel like it’s in the middle of my head. So I I kinda worked out the general area and it’s kind of between my eyes. Right? If you’re looking from the front, it’s between my eyes kind of in the between the eyebrows, maybe a little bit lower than that.
Victoria Volk: Third eye chakra?
Ann Hince: Maybe the crown chakra, maybe a little bit lower. It’s not it’s not the pineal gland. It’s not that far back. So what I think it is, and this is based on looking at a lot of symbology in different places. But I believe it is the sphenoid bone, the body of the sphenoid bone. That I’m looking from and that I can relate that to many different things that I’ve read in in different spiritual texts. And and so that’s why I believe the soul resides So that’s when I think, like, during your deaf experiences and such when you go through a dark tunnel, I think you’re coming out of the the sphenoid sinus effect in effect through the through the nose and out through, you know, through the body. But I haven’t been able to really determine that. I’ve I’ve talked to some people who’ve had near death experiences and some people who’ve been on Ayahuasca and such things to try and relate that ex my belief with their experience and some kind of relate to that and some don’t necessarily. So, yeah, it’s it’s interesting.
Victoria Volk: Well, I would say it is what you believe it is.
Ann Hince: Well, maybe, but I I’m not you know, that’s another part of this journey. It’s like some people I’m gonna talk to some people. They they think I’m going into my imagination to experience this. I’m not I’m out of my thinking mind. I’m in my feeling right. So I’m actually feeling things inside I’m feeling inside my bones. I’m feeling inside, you know, my palate, inside my neck, bones, inside my tooth roots. I can actually feel them move. Right? So I’m not it’s not what I believe it is.
It’s it’s what it actually is. Right? That’s and that’s hard for me to say because I know people don’t necessarily believe that, but it’s a very different experience to actually know versus believe.
Victoria Volk: Versus Our beliefs create a reality.
Ann Hince: Right. But I’m not sure I ever believed, you know, in in my
Victoria Volk: Oh, I get what you’re saying. Six years. I get what you’re saying.
Ann Hince: Believe where it’s coming from.
Victoria Volk: True. I get what you’re saying. It sounds like, too, what you’re experiencing is something that people could experience. I’ve I’ve experience really deep, profound meditations, visualizations, meditations, and I think we can have that a similar experience if we allow ourselves to completely relax to that place of where we connect to our higher consciousness and let our higher consciousness give us whatever it is that we are needing to receive messages or visions or insights. Right? To allow our third eye to really open and receive. And how I’ve personally seen my third eye in visualizations or meditations. It’s almost like I’m, like, in a UFO, in a way where it’s And I’m seeing my life and seeing me on, like, a TV screen, except it’s like, it it’s an all white in glass front. And it’s almost like, I’m just like on this observation deck or, you know, like, as, you know, you can see, like, air traffic controllers, you know, kind of like that, you know, where you’re just observing yourself in that our minds can take us to incredible places and are very powerful. And I think as as our minds and brains change with trauma.
Right? We can create those new connections and new experiences within the mind that can transform and transcend the experiences we feel within our bodies. And that really sounds like that’s it’s almost like you’ve little by little have incrementally leveled up on a cellular level.
Ann Hince: Yeah. Well, Kundalini with energy was part of that journey too. So, yeah, definitely think myself’s changed. So what you’re talking about there is is kind of it is kind of in the mind. Right? You’re talking about going into deep. Meditational visualizations where you’re kind of seeing things in the minds. Yeah. It’s really hard to put these things in word. Right? I don’t do that anymore. I go into the body. So I’m not creating things. In my thinking mind or even another part of the mind that does visualization. I’m actually going into the body and sensing tension.
Victoria Volk: No. But we can do that. That’s what I’m saying. Like, we can we can become so relaxed that we can almost and I think that experience would be different in need for every individual, but how I would feel how I would see myself or how how I’ve done that myself is like, seeing myself as like this miniature version of myself going into the body. Right? Like, that’s what I mean. It’s like you’re And then it’s like you’re seeing with your third eye in this visualization, you’re seeing what the body wants to communicate to I I think there’s so many ways we can do this. You know what I mean?
Ann Hince: I’m saying that this is different from that. Yeah. Right? Because I I’ve experienced that before. You’re still creating an image.
This is sensing. Right? If you put your awareness on your right knee right now. Right? And just feel how does your right knee feel. When you do that and the moment you do that, you’re sensing. You’re not putting a picture to it, so you might put words to it eventually, but before you do that, there’s a moment where you’re just feeling it. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And that’s why I’m saying I think I’m fast forwarding this the the real a little bit because I think it’s how you get there. Right? It’s like how you can get to that deep sensing. And if you have to use visualization to get you can use visualization or deep meditation to get to that deep sensing. If there’s, you know, like, He broke his back.
Ann Hince: Joe Despenza.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Thank you. Joe Despenza. You know, I’ve I’ve used his meditations and is deep sensing, but there’s also visualization that’s incorporated into that. And that’s what I’m saying. Like, to get the a lot of people need help getting to deep to get to the point where they’re deeply relaxed. I still don’t
Ann Hince: do it until I had released a lot of the outer layers of trauma, right, the outer emotions.
Victoria Volk: And that’s where you’re saying EFT was a huge
Ann Hince: Right. That was the first part. It took all those big layers away, all those emotions that allowed me to sense deeper. And then feeling the feelings just allowed me to sense deeper. So I think what Joe Despensa, your your focusing on one particular place and not necessarily clearing everything else out around it.
Right? It’s kind of a different way. I mean, if I don’t know if this is the right thing to say, but, you know, I’ve met him before And if you experience him, he doesn’t feel like he’s a particularly happy, light person. He still kind of feels heavy. So I would say that is because he’s he’s definitely done a lot of inner work.
Right? He’s focused deeply in certain areas, but I don’t think the the whole of it’s been cleared out. Just I can only say that, you know, because I’ve experienced it, you know, I used to feel really heavy I used to feel, you know, just so burdened all the time. And I’ve experienced the different. Right? I’m not I’m not like that anymore. I I feel to me, I feel lighter, I feel happier, more peace. Right? And I’ve cleared out you know, many layers all the way through my body, not just in in certain specific places. Right? So I would say that’s that’s the difference that’s allowed me to get inside and move around it will rather than just go into one particular place. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned the Cundalini too. Uh-huh. And I I had a session with a Cundalini practitioner, Kunduehne yoga, and she walked me through this breath work experience. And it’s like, I have never experienced anything like it. Like, where every cell in my entire body just felt like it was vibrating. It’s anyone listening? You wanna feel alive? Like, whoa. That was it was quite an experience.
Ann Hince: Yeah. It’s a massive energy. I mean, in my experience, it was just a massive energy. It felt like other people around me should no. Why why aren’t they? Feeling it too because it was just so big. Mhmm. But for me, it happens just as part of the process. Right? I’d released enough energy myself it kind of it took over almost what I feel is it took over to allow the rest of my body to catch up.
With the parts that had released enough tension. So it went on for months on and off. I could kind of move it up and down my body at will. I could stop it whenever I want it. I just have to relax sufficiently and then it would start up again. And I would relax more up into my spine and it would move up it it was kind of fun actually. But at some point, it got to the place where, you know, I had released enough or it had burnt through enough of remaining tension. That it it just kind of faded away. And it was actually at that point that I was able to put my awareness inside my body, so I think that was part of the process.
Victoria Volk: Did you get to the third part?
Ann Hince: Yeah. That third part was putting my awareness inside my body.
Victoria Volk: So how it has your life changed since.
Ann Hince: Oh, it’s lovely. I’m really very peaceful. You know, when I started this journey, I used to love seeing peaceful parents at school. It was so nice, you know. I wanted to be one of them. And one day, a few years into this process, I had another mother come up to me and say, I want to be as peaceful as you are. You know? And for me, that was a big moment that I had shifted enough that other people could notice that that I myself was peaceful. So it’s really nice. I actually go out of my way now to find things that I react to. So for many years, I didn’t watch the news because it was too much. Now I want to watch the news because I want to feel what’s going on inside. I want to find deeper healing still. So that’s really nice. There’s also a huge depth to life that I had no idea existed when I started this journey. I didn’t know that you could actually hear things in your body not just through your ears. You could feel music. Just just throughout your body. I mean, it makes the experience of listening to music so much nicer. But it also means like when you’re listening to a conversation, you’re able to pick up more than just the sound of their voice. Right? You’re picking up nuances in them. In their facial expressions, in their body movements. Because if you can recognize it within yourself, if you can feel it, if you have that depth of self awareness in yourself, you can see it in other people as well, right, which makes having conversations much more enjoyable, satisfying, Also, I’ve really so much tension in my skull now, which is our echo chamber for our voice. So my voice has changed. I can actually sing a note that I could not sing before because I’ve released that tension holding my skull in a particular position. Right? It’s now much more malleable, much more flexible. So there’s that too.
Victoria Volk: What was your health like before that pivotal moment when you realize that something needed to change and how has your health changed since?
Ann Hince: I used to have a lot of digestive issues. And tried many, many different diets, all sorts of things. But it was really associated with all that stress that I was holding inside. So that has released not fully because part of the journey is a deeper level of self awareness. Right? So oftentimes during this journey, I’ll think, okay, I can feel something now that I couldn’t feel before. And it’s not because it’s a new you know, when you paint or whatever, it’s just something that was hidden before that I’ve now become aware of. So that’s been a, you know, a little bit of a mind thing to get used to along this journey. So I’m just working at a deeper level. But I’ve also grown three quarters of an inch in my fifties, you know, that that doesn’t happen very often. You know, I’m taller than they’ve ever been in my life before and most of us start to shrink because we’re holding so much tension inside. And we tend to think the same thoughts over and over, which, you know, adds tension to those already tense neural pathways inside of us. So as we release that burden, we’re actually just becoming more of our natural blueprint. Right? So I don’t know what high time going to end up as, but I know my neck is continuing to release every day. So I would not be surprised if I grow a little bit more.
Victoria Volk: So if people are watching this on YouTube, they’ll see. I’m kind of I am kind of hunched forward. My shoulders are kind of in. My posture absolutely sucks at this moment. And so I’m at and what I know is and I’ve been feeling some stuff lately. Like, my I have so much tension throughout my shoulders and my neck. And I I know emotionally I’m going I’m feeling some things these past few days. I can recognize that. Right? I may try EFT after a week and off this.
Or a really deep meditation because I it’s been a long while since I’ve meditated. I just wanna highlight for people in that when you’ve worked on the grief, because you you say stress a lot, but I wanna reiterate that what brought you to this podcast is grief. And what does grief do? It causes a stress in the body. It physically stresses the body and not to mention the daily life that we have, can be stressful. Right? It’s But I think we label things as stressful. So how has that shifted for you? In because I was just reading something yesterday that kind of made me think about this word stressful and stress And it’s like we are such a stressed society, but as it’s at the same time, it’s maintaining It was talking about, like, our personal management, like, our management of ourselves. Like, we can’t and you might be a manager of other people and especially if you’re parent, mother, you’re managing other people. Right? You’re managing a household. But what about your personal management? How are you managing the self? And I recognize that when I’m not managing the self, I feel more stress. I feel more stressed in the body, my posture sucks, like all of these things. Right? Like and so What do you have to say to that?
Ann Hince: Well, a lot of people, when they use the word managing, right, they also think of the word controlling.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. And I
Ann Hince: think a lot of even there’s, you know, different spiritual methods. Also talk about controlling or controlling the mind or controlling the thoughts. My whole journey has been about noticing and allowing and releasing. So, you know, in some sense, it could be called controlling or managing. But in terms of the modern day use of those words, it’s really not that. So yes, we want to notice. We want to notice how we’re feeling during the day. A lot of us suppress. We suppress or we bypass. Right? We’ll have a drink or we’ll I don’t know. People some people take drugs or some people exercise to try and avoid feeling those thoughts and the feelings and the emotions that are coming up. But when we do that, we’re just keeping that energy, that emotion, that stress, that grief suppressed inside the body. Because it it doesn’t go anywhere. It needs it needs noticing, it needs acknowledging, it needs feeling, it needs being met, right, if we’re if we’re If there’s something we want to share with someone else and the person we’re talking to doesn’t really listen. Right? If we don’t feel like we’ve been listened to, that feeling of needing to share that information stays inside of us until someone really meets us, really listens and hears us. That’s what we need to do with the emotion inside of us. Once we really hear it, we really feel it, we allow it to be felt, to be released, it will. It will relax and let go. So it’s not really about, right, managing or controlling. It’s about noticing being aware. And just allowing ourselves to feel those feelings that are living inside of us rather than forgetting them and move on, which most of us are programmed to do. Right? That’s that’s so common and that’s what needs to change. I think even in childhood, in schools. Right? If we learn history and we allow the children to talk about and to feel the emotions that are brought up, while hearing about that history, I think that’s how we change the projection or the direction of the world actually.
Victoria Volk: That phrase, self management, personal management, it was actually used by yoga guru. Sand Sandguru. I think it’s how you say his name? I’m probably saying it wrong.
Ann Hince: I don’t know.
Victoria Volk: I’ll send you a link. But, yeah, he’s a mystic and a teacher and thought leader and Yeah. I mean, he’s got what’s his program called? Inner inner something. I’m it’s case in my mind right now. I’ll share I’ll put it in show notes if anybody’s interested.
Ann Hince: I think I know who you’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, even him, you know, I have to be careful with my words because who am I, but I don’t know anyone else who’s developed this inability that I have. So I listen to their words. I listen to the way they talk about things. And I don’t believe he has developed this ability. So I don’t necessarily listen to what he says.
Victoria Volk: I’m just saying that’s where the phrase came from, what I was listening to
Ann Hince: a banding number. But but maybe it’s just not the best way. I mean, that’s what I’ve looked at a lot of these different spiritual methods. And I think originally, they were probably correct, but they’ve been mistranslated through the years. And, you know, people tend to think that we have to have to control ourselves. And really, it’s kind of almost the opposite of that. Well, I
Victoria Volk: think it’s not See, I hear self management and I don’t hear control. I don’t get a sense of control in that way. Like, So I think it’s a matter of perspective as well. Like and we’re all going to perceive yeah. It’s yeah. We’re all going to perceive what we see and what we hear and what we think or what we feel differently.
Ann Hince: But even Buddhism, when you look at Buddhism, it’s it’s and even yoga, like the, you know, spiritual aspect of yoga. It’s very much about controlling thoughts, controlling things you eat. You know, just all sorts of control in there. Mhmm. And I think originally, they have the right idea, but it’s just been twisted over the years. And I don’t think it’s going to get people where they think it’s going to get them.
Victoria Volk: I totally hear where you’re coming from. I mean, for me, I I feel like like, a sense of self like, I desire a sense of self mastery in a in a sense of whatever is going on in the world. To be able to feel that piece. Right?
Ann Hince: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You can put
Ann Hince: down the ability.
Victoria Volk: Are you are you familiar with human design?
Ann Hince: I’ve heard of it. I don’t know much about it.
Victoria Volk: I’m a manifestor type, and and that’s a label or whatever, but it helps me make sense It helped me make sense of a lot of things in my life, but the not self theme of a manifestor’s anger and the the opposite of that is right right is peace. And so I know I’m feeling aligned in what I’m doing, what I’m saying, what I’m thinking, what I’m feeling, when I’m at peace. So I’ve been able I’m starting to recognize and I’ve been in my experiment with human design and in learning these things about myself. For it’s been a couple years, but it’s really helped me to open my eyes to have own awareness. Right? Of of when I’m what what not feeling peace feels like in my body, like the tension in my neck and my slouching and my turning inward because this is what we do when we are I see so many people with their your shoulders go up like this. You’re not relaxed. Right? You’re in the grocery store line, whatever. You you can just see people’s posture how they carry themselves. It’s written all over them.
Ann Hince: Yeah. They’re not aware of it. I mean, most of us Yeah. Most of us are not aware of it. There is so much hidden in our subconscious mind that we are just not aware of and that’s that’s why you have to go down this road a little bit
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Ann Hince: To start realizing some things that have been hidden in your a conscious mind and then you start to realize, oh my goodness, there’s so much more, let me keep going and then covering what’s in there. So yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah, I think grief is just in stress, is just written all over us. You know, you can see it another I see it clearly in other people, and I I can recognize it. Within myself. And so how has like, what’s life like now? Like, on the daily Are you still doing EFT? Are you still, like, how much time have you devoted to this practice? Are you teaching other people? Teaching you and we touch your kids, like all the questions.
Ann Hince: Well, I used it on my kids when they were young. My my youngest son used to have nightmares and I go and tap on him. Didn’t need any words because the emotions were already in his body. So I just tap on him and then I’d say, okay, mom, I can go back to sleep now and I would just you know, leave the room and you’d go back to sleep. So they know that it was. They just have a lot of resistance because, you know, children often do. So I’m hoping one day they’ll come back to it or or at least do some kind of shadow work to, you know, because I didn’t I didn’t change until they were you know, six and ten something like that. So they have traumas inside of them from those early years for sure. I do still use EFT not as much because I I have these other things I can use. I mean, I feel inside multiple times a day, like, many, many times a day. Fifty, a hundred times a day. And that many times, I will have something release in my my neck or my my head. So it’s almost automatic. To me for me now, it just first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is like, okay, where’s my neck gonna crack? And I will just move and allow it to crack. So it’s it’s very much a part of me now and it it wasn’t in those early years. I I just I started doing it more and more because it felt so good, you know, this tension has been stalled inside of us for, you know, for me, for decades and it felt good to release it. So I just kept doing it. Let’s see. I do, I mean, I do share the information. I have a YouTube channel that has different videos and I’ve got If you go to my website and hints dot com, I’ve got a PDF download of my cheat sheet, my two page PDF with, you know, all the basics of EFT, so anyone could learn to do it. And let’s see. What were the other questions there?
Victoria Volk: You answer with the kids, how it’s, like, physically I’m curious too, like, with food.
Ann Hince: Right? You asked about my day, like, how I feel different. And my days. My days are peaceful. I enjoy my days now.
It doesn’t matter what I’m doing. I can always find peace. And that was not the case before at all. So I’m happy wherever I go, whatever I’m doing, you know, some people will sometimes say, you know, are we looking forward to going on this trip that, you know, you’re gonna go on? It’s like, well, you know, that’s two weeks in the future. I’m not thinking about that. I’m peaceful right now. So kind of time has shifted as well. I think of it differently. Feel it differently. So that’s really nice. I mean, my goal was in a piece. So, you know, I’m not fully there yet because I know there’s a lot more tension still and I won’t feel total feet piece on the inside. Until my I think until my body is totally aligned, and I’ve got a long way to go yet on that. So but I know I know I know what I’m working on. Know what I’m working towards. So that’s and then you mentioned food. I did lots of different diets along my way before I found the EFT. I mean, all sorts, life food, vegan, macrobiotic, vegetarian, just all sorts and I let go of all my beliefs around that, not all of them. I still eat organic. Whenever I can. And I cook my own food mostly. But I’ve let go of so much tension and all those beliefs around that should have this or I shouldn’t have this or if I have this, I’m not gonna feel right. You know, I’d let go of all of that so I can pretty much eat whatever I want. Now, which is really nice. And I have some discussions online, you know, with people who think you should be vegan, you know, that that’s so adamant about it. And it’s that being adamant. It’s that tension. It’s that judgment of other people. That’s what’s holding dysys inside of their body. And I know because I was there too. I was vegan for many years. And I remember having that that judgment. And that’s tension. That’s dis ease inside of ourselves. And when we’re judging someone else, we’re hurting ourselves. So go find that judgment. Notice it. Feel it. Allow it and let it release.
And that actually releases the disease from inside of us.
Victoria Volk: Part of my intention is just having this experience lately where I had signed up for this program and, you know, the the fad right now is protein, protein, protein, and you need seen amount of protein. And what I found though is my and I this is not like, this has been going on about five months now, like and I’ve just, you know, switched a different program and still trying to maintain, like, the tracking and and, you know, the weights and but what I’m what I found, like, just in just in the last couple days, truly. Like, over the weekend. So this is very new, and this is why this tension has actually enlightened today, to be honest. Like, this is true story. I felt I was feeling heavy. I was feeling so heavy. And I was feeling like, my body is screaming at me. Like, this is not for me right now. And I was so adamant of this is what I need, this is I need this person to tell me what, you know, how much I’m supposed to be eating and I need to do these workouts and do diesel regimented. And that is so against my body type, like my body as, like, even as a manifestor. This is where this is where human design has helped me too and realizing that my desires are gonna change depending on my energetic where I am energetically, and I’m more of like in this rest cycle right now, which has corresponded to this program I’m working on, which I’ve lately just, like, I put it on the table and I haven’t looked at it. Like, I just I put it down and I haven’t looked at it in, like, over a week. Two weeks actually, probably. And I’m like, oh my god, this is what’s happening. I’m in this rush cycle. I’m not why am I pushing myself to do this program? I need to listen to my body. I need to honor my body. And as soon as I’ve done that, As of yesterday afternoon, I feel so much better today. It is crazy. How our bot like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s a perfect example of what we’re talking about of how our bodies are always communicating with us. We just you know, the judgment or the the self criticism or, you know, I should be doing this and I should be doing that or, like you said, of other people too,
Ann Hince: Yeah. And we forget that we’re so connected. Right? That was part of my journey. I realized how it’s all connected, so you could access that tension in your shoulders, in your neck. Through words, right, through through memories, through beliefs. Right? I believe that I should be doing something or controlling or giving someone else control over my body.
Victoria Volk: Yes. That agency and last my sense of agency.
Ann Hince: Yes. So that is connected to the tension in your shoulders. Or you could tap or if you’re using EFT, you could tap directly on I have tension in my shoulders. Right? You could feel the tension in your shoulders. It doesn’t matter which way you access it, right, whether it’s through words, emotions, or through physical tension itself. It’s still accessing the tension in your shoulders because it’s all connected. I know a lot of people are concerned like doctor will say, well, it’s all in your head. Right? And some people get offended by that. But if we take that to be true, okay. So what is it I’m thinking or feeling? And if we know that those thoughts and feelings are connected to the physical, then we can work with those words and with those memories and with those emotions. And that’s what EFT did for me. It’s kind of those outer layers. Okay. I’ll let me let me go through the memories of those traumas and talk through them and tap through them. And what I didn’t realize when I started to do that, that I was affecting the physical because I didn’t have that depth of self self awareness. I have that depth now, so I know that it’s all connected. So even if you don’t know that you’re affecting the physical, I can tell you, if you’re doing EFT, even on words and memories, you are affecting the physical.
Victoria Volk: I had a question. Do you have a meditation that guides people through that process of interconnecting.
Ann Hince: Not as such. I mean, I have videos on YouTube about the different steps about the feeling the feelings.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Ann Hince: I’m feeling feeling this one about going inside. It tapes work to go inside though. So I’m not sure anyone could do that right off, but they could feel a feeling. So, like, empaths are very good at picking up and sensing their feelings inside their bodies. So that they could do that. So, yes, that’s a I do have a video series that that takes people deeper into relaxation and where they can actually notice their depth of awareness. Because I find that people don’t know. Right? We don’t know what we don’t know. So we don’t know how far we can go beyond where we are right now. So as I’ve gone through this journey, I’ve realized there’s different things that have changed in me. Right? Like being able to feel music within the body. Right, rather than hear it with just your ears. So I’ve recognized some different things that change, and so I I’ve like, take people through those, right, to notice. I mean, even just simply noticing how reactionary you are. Right? If you’re still reaction if you’re still triggered by things, or easily triggered by things, if people say you’re highly strung, then you don’t have a great depth of awareness. I’m sorry. That’s just the way it is. But it means there’s so much more you can find, so much more depth to life that you can find by doing this inner work.
Victoria Volk: And I think what people don’t realize is the deeper goal of this work, doing the work, and looking into yourself, and connecting with the self is that I think so many of us come into this life and we leave this life, not ever realizing our own potential because of it.
Ann Hince: Absolutely. My brother my brother died a few years ago. You know, he was adopted too. Right? So he had a different story from me.
He was adopted from a different family. But he Whereas I went one direction, he went into the way my parents were so he drank and he smoked his whole life and I actually tapped with him a couple of months before he died. I went to his hospital room, and he and I tapped through some of our collective childhood traumas And it was really interesting to talk through some of those things that were being through together. And to have him experience EFT. I I had to tap on him because he didn’t have the energy to tap. But but after a few minutes of tapping on on one thing in particular when we were at boarding school, when we left him the first term at boarding we drove away and we were heading to Hong Kong from England. It’s a long way away. We left him screaming in the driveway. He was just screaming for us to stay. And he remembered that. It was so clear to him, and and we tapped on it. And he said it had kind of receded more in his mind through this, those couple of minutes of tapping. So, you know, I I think if he had wanted to, do this work. He could have totally changed his life, but it wasn’t on his path. It wasn’t something he was ready to do. So, you know, some of us Some of us don’t, and some of us do.
Victoria Volk: Do you have a relationship relationship now with your birth mother?
Ann Hince: I do. I went to see here at Christmas time. Yes. Yeah. But even
Victoria Volk: though times.
Ann Hince: No. I’ve met her. I mean, I’ve met her when I was seventeen for the first time. And then then on our honeymoon, when I was twenty four. She came over when my first son was born and a couple of other times.
So, yeah, I’ve I’ve seen her less than ten times in my life, but but it’s been nice. And we have technology now, so I call her once a month. So yeah. And and she came over one time and we actually tagged together on my birth on her on her giving me up. So I think that was healing for both of us.
Victoria Volk: Did she ever tell you why?
Ann Hince: Yes. She was twenty six. She just she’d been engaged to my father and they had this one time event after she told him that she was leaving, it was that night. And she left the next morning. She got on a boat from New Zealand to head back to England, and she found that she was pregnant on the way. So, yeah, she was a single mother and she just thought that I would be better off within a a complete family.
Victoria Volk: Do you have any other siblings? Half siblings?
Ann Hince: I do. I have two half siblings from her, and I just found out who my birth father was a couple of years ago through ancestry, and he never knew I existed, and he died a few years ago. So I have a house sibling, a half sister through him. So I was finally met her. I met her at Christmas time to you the first time ever.
Victoria Volk: Was that healing for you to you know, it’s like you find out your dot and I don’t know what this is like, but So if you can elaborate, that would be wonderful. But, like, did you almost feel like like you didn’t know a half of you? You know what I mean? Like,
Ann Hince: Yes. You know, absolutely. Yeah. There was there was a palpable relief when I first met my best mother. I mean, I and again, it was tension that I had not known that I was holding probably since I was thirteen. Right? But I didn’t know it was there until I could feel it really when I met her at seventeen. And the same thing about finding out about my birthdays, I didn’t know I was I was missing something. Right? Until there was some relief when I found out, and and that felt really good.
Victoria Volk: Well, this has been a fascinating conversation. I’ve had my own ahas as I’ve heard you speak and you know, thank you for letting me share a little bit of my own personal experience throughout this
Ann Hince: day. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I will put links to your cheat sheet, the YouTube, your website, and the show notes. But where can let me ask you this first. Is there anything that you want to share that you didn’t get a chance to?
Ann Hince: I don’t think so. We covered all sorts of things. Yeah. I mean, thing I love to share at the end is the depths of life because there’s so many people who are depressed these days or considering suicide. And and I did too as a teenager, but there was just so much you don’t know yet if that’s what you’re thinking.
So I encourage people to go down this journey and realize the depth to life, right, so that you can enjoy life more. There’s just so much enjoyment that you have not yet found, so I encourage you to do that.
Victoria Volk: I do wanna share to and ask the art. So anyone that’s not is only listening to this and not seeing it there’s some artwork on your wall beside you. Is that your artwork?
Ann Hince: It is. Yes. Wow. So so recent artwork. That’s, again, that’s been a journey.
Right? I started out doing pencil portraits. And, you know, black and white, I I drew in black and white for years.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm. Interesting.
Ann Hince: Then I became able to feel into colors. And I started using colors more and and started going less detailed rate and more just what felt right. And, yeah, I can feel into colors more now that I mean, I had no idea that that was possible before. But, I mean, I wear blue now all the time because just blue feels so peaceful full to me. And I feel a a repulsion from white. It’s like it reflects. It’s it pushes energy away from it, which I find really interesting given that people tend to think of it as a spiritual color. Mhmm. I don’t I I kind of almost don’t see white cars. I mean, I know they’re a car. I know they’re there. Don’t worry. I drive safely. But if I I have a friend who has a a white car and I I just don’t see her. I’ll see the colored cars. I’ll see blues and reds and yellows and but it’s it’s that’s been an interesting part of this journey too. You know, I say many just read changes.
Victoria Volk: Well, I just wanna highlight that you your wall is purple. You have a lot of purple in your artwork and the third eye chakra is purple.
Ann Hince: Yeah. This is a colorful room. I’ve also got a green roof with yellow highlights and three different colored lights there. There’s a a red, blue, and green. Yeah. I try and keep white out of this room. So yeah. So people I do have my artwork I have a little shop on my websites with Okay. Products from my artwork. If anyone wants to go and have a look. They’re very colorful.
Victoria Volk: Just some of the bottom on there.
Ann Hince: Thank you. If someone wants to find me, you can you can contact me on my website. And hence dot com or I’m very active on Facebook. So you can you can interact with me there. I try and post something every day, and I’m trying to explain you know, my story through other people’s quotes and and that kind of thing. I try and, you know, add an explanation to things. And also, I’m starting I’m learning how to put on retreats. So our first retreat, a friend and I are gonna put on retreats that’s called liberation beyond loss. Which is gonna be specifically for women who’ve lost a mother. Right? We’re gonna do this work, this inner work, the tapping, and the trauma release work around that loss and that grief. So if someone wants to to check that out too. That’ll be next year.
Victoria Volk: So amazing. And I’ll put links, like I said, in the show notes. Where people can connect with you and find all the goodness that you offer.
Ann Hince: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your story, and I think a lot of examples of all kinds of different grief in your story. And so thank you for sharing.
Ann Hince: Thank you. Thanks for the great conversation.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Grief isn’t merely an emotion; it’s a profound energy that demands reflection and immersion into our deepest feelings. But too often, our intellect and ego stand as gatekeepers, preventing the deep emotional healing we desperately need.
In this week’s solo episode, I speak of the body as a compass through loss. Grief tells us when to pause and feel deeply if only we stay grounded enough to heed its guidance. Neglected grief is insidious—it can manifest into physical ailments or emotional turmoil.
Key Points Discussed:
- Grief’s Energetics: I compare grief to a body of water that overwhelms us and emphasizes the importance of allowing ourselves to feel deeply rather than intellectualizing our emotions.
- Physical and Emotional Connection: Our bodies and emotions have a visceral understanding of loss.
- The Impact of Unprocessed Trauma: How past traumas, like sexual abuse or physical violence, can lead us to dissociate from painful experiences and how this affects our present life choices.
- The Opportunity for Growth Through Grief: While it might be hard to hear, especially during times of suffering, there is potential for growth through processing our grief effectively.
- Searching for Episodes by Loss Type: I encouraged my listeners to explore previous episodes categorized by types of loss, such as widowhood or parental loss, via the blog’s search function.
- Rituals and Recovery Methods: I highlighted the importance of rituals and community support in grieving processes and suggested engaging in my “Do Grief Differently” program as a way forward.
- Unleashing Painful Emotions: I shared my own transformative experience where acknowledging all forms of grief led me to release intense emotions that had been pent up inside.
If you’ve ever felt lost in your grieving process or know someone who does—remember my voice echoing softly amidst the noise: “Healing is possible. Your emotions are valid. And most importantly—you’re never alone on this journey toward reclaiming your heart after loss.”
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Grief as a Natural Process
I understand that grief carries a profound energy – one that requires us to pause, reflect deeply, and immerse ourselves fully into our emotions. She argues convincingly that this force has tangible effects on both body and mind; thus, processing it isn’t just beneficial but necessary for healing.
Our intellect and ego can sometimes act as barriers preventing us from experiencing the rawness of our feelings during the grieving process. This resistance can halt emotional healing at its core. By acknowledging this challenge openly on her podcast, Victoria invites listeners to let go of mental blocks and embrace their vulnerability.
The Body: A Compass Through Mourning
One key insight that I share with you is viewing the body not just as a vessel but also as a guide through the labyrinth of loss. Staying grounded allows individuals to navigate their journey more intuitively by truly feeling each emotion without shying away or intellectualizing them.
Unaddressed grief doesn’t simply fade away; it often manifests itself through physical ailments or emotional disturbances. However, when acknowledged and processed properly – something that I advocates strongly for – healing becomes attainable. We can then remember those we’ve lost without being incapacitated by sorrow.
Do Grief Differently: A Program for Healing
To aid grievers along this path, I offer the program Do Grief Differently which equips participants with tools designed not only for immediate relief but long-term application throughout life’s many challenges involving loss. This approach acknowledges two critical points: first, that sadness may linger even after healing occurs; secondly, understanding how past traumas influence current behaviors is crucial in moving forward constructively.
Broadens the scope beyond death-related grief by addressing other forms such as abandonment issues or financial losses—demonstrating empathy towards all who suffer regardless of circumstance while encouraging listeners to find solace in episodes most pertinent to their unique experiences.
My comprehensive resource extends further via blog posts where I delve deeper into topics discussed on air—a testament to her commitment towards providing accessible support no matter where someone might be on their grieving journey.
Confronting Unresolved Pain Head-on
Allowing unresolved pain from festering beneath life’s surface—it can lead to ongoing physical discomforts or emotional turmoil if left unchecked.
Rituals play an essential role here; they offer structure within chaos—a sentiment echoed across various cultures worldwide—and provide opportunities for expression during times when words fail us.
By facing pain directly rather than avoiding it (a central theme), people gain empowerment over their circumstances instead of remaining ensnared by unprocessed emotions—which ultimately leads toward clarity and peace.
An Invitation Towards Self-Care & Engagement
As each episode concludes with heartfelt advice urging self-care practices especially concerning physical health impacts due to unprocessed emotions—listeners are encouraged not only listen passively but actively engage themselves within community discussions around shared experiences fostering collective growth outwards together alongside fellow grievers seeking similar paths toward wellness.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hello. Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon or good evening. Whatever time it is you’re listening to this solo episode. Thank you for being here. And I was not sure what I wanted to talk about for this solo episode, but then I had a song come into my head from Lotto. Which I did look it up, how to say it right. And it is Lotto. Lotto. She’s a female rapper here in the United States. Anyway, she has a song called Big Energy and that song came into my mind and I thought what else has Big Energy Grief. Grief. That’s big energy. So that’s what I wanna talk about today is the big energy that is grief. And the energetics of it specifically, grief asks us, to become quiet and stop. Stop. To stop. Stop the movement. Stop the mind unraveling to just stop and dive into the depths. Of our souls. And it’s our intellect that usually tries to not usually, it does. Our intellect is what lifts us out of that grip of grief the deep wound of grief, I think before we’re ready, before we allow ourselves to be immersed. In that deep ocean, whatever you wanna call it. However, it’s like this body of water that feels like you’re drowning. You feel like you’re being swallowed up. Our bodies and our emotions have a visceral understanding of death and loss. We know that we can no longer touch or see those who have passed, yet we can still feel the embrace of a lost lover or hear the laughter of a child who has died, our bodies miss limbs that we have lost. And our bodies remember that pain. Our bodies and our emotions experience the reality of injury of loss of separation or even death every day. These two elements body our body and our emotions. No grief. Which means they can act as our guide. If we can stay grounded to our bodies and stop ourselves from flying off into some spiritual or intellectual distraction in response to grief. And as a result, we would we would be able to receive the c the healing that grief can offer us. We just don’t allow ourselves to go to that depth to allow our bodies to feel fully and let those emotions pass through us, move through us, let the body rid itself of the emotional pain you know, that twinge that you feel, that heartache, that heaviness in your chest, when we think about either the suffering that someone else inflicted on us, because grief isn’t just about death. I’ve said that so many times on this podcast. If you’ve never heard another episode before. There’s four plus years of content there for you to check out. I advise you to check out the first ten episodes, which actually might be ten to fifteen episodes, twelve, something like that. That really dive into grief itself and give you some background information and kind of lay a foundation of what the next episodes and the years that follow really lean on. Our bodies know how to process. It’s our ego. It’s our intellect. Our logic. Our analysis paralysis is what gets in the way, is what stunts our growth through grief. I’ll call it that. We have an opportunity to grow from our grief, despite our grief. No one wants to hear that grief is a growth opportunity, nobody. If someone would have told me that after my dad died, had I not been eight years old, granted. But even as a young adult, when I was still in the throes of grief really because my early twenties were kind of a shit show. So if someone would have told me, what I just said, I would have dismissed it. I probably would have been, like, your freaking crazy and it’s bullshit is what I probably would have said. Nobody asks, for that test. Nobody asks to be in that group of people who are suffering in their grief. And there is many of you out there listening to this right now who are suffering in your grief. And I just implore you that if you have never let yourself ask deeper questions about the loss you’ve experienced? Maybe it’s abandonment, maybe it’s loss of safety or security, financial loss, divorce, estrangement, There are so many scenarios I’ve shared with guests throughout the years. Driving the issue home, that grief is not just about death. I think we’ve established that by now. As you listen to the stories that people have shared throughout the years, And if you’re unsure, like, which episodes are for you, you can go to my website, actually, and there is a search box on the right side. If you click on one of the episodes of on the pod of the podcast on my blog, on the right hand panel, on the side, the right side, there is a you can search by categories. There’s widowhood. There’s parent loss, divorce, there’s everything is broken out by category. So if you wanna find an episode that maybe relates more to your situation. There’s a way to search for that on my on my blog, so I encourage you to check that out. Because there is four plus years of episodes. And if you’re not finding something that you’re resonating with or that you’ve or you’re wondering, like, where can I is there an episode about this topic? Reach out to me. I will send you a direct link. I will find it. I want you to see yourself in the people’s stories. And that’s why I try to represent all types of loss on this podcast. Just reach out to me if there’s an episode that you’re wondering if I cover a specific topic. That being said, regardless of the loss, regardless of your experience. There is a way forward. But we have to allow ourselves to feel it. Truly feel it. Feel that big, big, grief energy. Maybe like me. You were traumatized as a child. Maybe you’re a victim of sexual trauma like myself. Where over the years, you may be have maybe use painful events or scary movies. To further hone in your skills of disassociating, of disconnecting from your body. And whenever grievous situations occurred, boom, you shit out of your body, you just disassociate, completely disassociate, unable to feel. And I think so many people who have experienced trauma in that way, sexual trauma, physical abuse, just find yourself going somewhere else in your mind. Letting your mind take you somewhere else is the best way I can describe it. And I think then the response can be then to put yourself unconsciously, I don’t think it’s conscious. I think, unconsciously put yourself in the way of situations that help you to further disassociate to further not feel. And the only way to not allow those past experiences to continue to influence your present day and your future is to go back in time and to look at those things. And that’s what so many people have told me over the years is, I don’t need to dredge up the past. The past is in the past, but my friend, the past is your present. And your future until it is healed. And I say that word healed And I almost don’t even like saying it myself because it feels like it’s the weight of it is I don’t know. I feel like the word healing has become cheapened in a way. It’s like this elusive word that I don’t know. I feel like it’s lost. It’s meaning over time. But true healing in the form of when you think about that person, when you find yourself in a in a place where you remembering something from the past that it’s not taking you back in time to the pain You’re not feeling that in your body as you once did. It’s not influencing your decisions in the present. Or what you decide to do in the future. Those are I think those are unconscious processes that you don’t connect the dots at what you’re doing, why you make the decisions you make, why you move forward the way you do is because of the experiences of the past. And so when we acknowledge, that those things are influencing us when we learn new tools in recognizing and connecting the dots from our past to our present and to our future, That’s empowering. It’s empowering. If you don’t crave your losses, the people who have died or who have inflicted suffering upon you in some way, either get erased from your consciousness as if they weren’t important or they hang around in your psyche as if you’re being haunted. This is the pain. This is the suffering. Do you recognize these things in your life right now. Ask yourself these two questions. What must be mourned? What must be released completely? Ask yourself these internal questions. And I want to make a distinction between being caught in grief because you’ve, like, fallen into this another world ocean. And being caught in grief because your grieving process has not yet completed itself. Is most of us are rushed through our public grief and left to do our real grieving on our own. Without ritual, without ceremony, or without community. And in many cases, this the trapped grief is really just unfinished grief. If your grief is stuck in the body simply because it is unfinished, then walking yourself through a ritual practice for grief will help. Oh, going through grief recovery with me will help. It’ll also teach you a lot by the way and connect a lot of dots for you. But grieving takes its own time and it won’t leave you until you give your grief reference. So many people who I’ve talked to myself included, this will be my testament that once I honored and looked at all of the grief that I’ve experienced in my life, I was finally able to thank it. I was able to let it leave my body, the anger, the grief, The resentment, so so many emotions flooded out of me. Like, it was like the floodgates had opened. It was like the dam broke. I didn’t know if I could cry anymore tears. And if it’s been a long time since you’ve cried, you probably have a dam of tears just waiting to be unleashed as well. And it takes big, big energy to hold that in. And what is that doing to your body? That big, big energy needs to go somewhere? Are you putting it into alcohol? Are you putting it into other substance use? Are you putting it into people who you pour into, but don’t fill your cup, putting it into people pleasing, putting it into putting all that energy into seeking some sort of validation from others. What are you putting your big big grief energy into if it’s not into your into yourself? And into your healing. It’s going somewhere, or it’s destroying you from the inside. You have diabetes? Are you suffering with obesity? Do you have heart issues? The list goes on and on, migraines, fibromyalgia, this insidious body affecting thing that is idiopathic. They don’t have a clue what causes fibromyalgia. I would say it’s grief. I would say it’s unprocessed trauma. All over body pain. Tingling, sometimes numbness, like pins and needles. Aikiness. Just overall aikiness. I was tested for showrooms, I was tested for RA, so many tests. They didn’t come right out and say I had fiber mildly, but Looking back in hindsight, I’m surprised they didn’t. Inflammation in the body. Is stress in the body? And where is that stress coming from? Yes, we have environmental stress. Yes, we have physical stress, grief is stress, trauma is stress. Our bodies hold onto that. Our logic, and our ego, and our minds hold onto that as a protective blanket of sorts. Thinking we’re protecting ourselves. When really we’re causing our own suffering. I think that’s the perfect way to end this episode. Just think about where you’re putting the big, big energy that is grief. Where are you putting that energy? Where is it being stored in your body? How is it manifesting in your life? What do you need to let go of and release? What needs to be honored in your past? These are the deeper questions. And when you ask the deeper questions, my friend, you get the deeper answers. And if you are needing support in doing that, a little hand holding, you know where to find me. Until next time, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Dive into the depths of grief, joy, and the paradox of emotions with Yvonne Caputo on Grieving Voices this week. From personal tales to professional insights, learn how attentive listening can transform relationships and provide peace in life’s transitions.
Yvonne reflects on personally challenging life transitions that led her to therapy as she grappled with feelings of loss. Her journey emphasizes not just the grand losses but also those smaller ones that cumulatively shape our lives.
Episode Highlights:
The Paradox of Emotions: Yvonne talks about containing paradoxes—how we can experience joy in sorrow, teaching us valuable lessons about mental health and resilience.
Storytelling & Healing: Listen to how conversations with her father about his WWII experiences helped unearth latent PTSD and transformed their relationship by simply offering an attentive ear.
End-of-Life Wishes: Discover why discussing end-of-life preferences is crucial as Caputo recounts honoring her father’s wishes for a peaceful passing versus the traumatic hospital death of her mother without known wishes.
Therapeutic Practices: Learn from Caputo’s approach to providing comfort in therapy—validating experiences without judgment—and its impact on elderly individuals in caregiving settings.
From dealing with personal loss to facilitating meaningful dialogues around mortality, this episode is a testament to the healing power of being heard.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses.
Exploring Grief and Connection: Yvonne Caputo on Therapeutic Listening
In the latest episode of Grieving Voices, we dive deep into a heartfelt conversation with psychotherapist and author Yvonne Caputo. She shares her profound insights on grief, loss, and the magic woven through truly listening to one another’s stories.
Caputo reflects on personally challenging life transitions that led her to therapy as she grappled with feelings of loss. Her journey emphasizes not just the grand losses but also those smaller ones that cumulatively shape our lives.
🔹 The Paradox of Emotions: Yvonne talks about containing paradoxes—how we can experience joy in sorrow, teaching us valuable lessons about mental health and resilience.
🔸 Storytelling & Healing: Listen to how conversations with her father about his WWII experiences helped unearth latent PTSD and transformed their relationship by simply offering an attentive ear.
🔹 End-of-Life Wishes: Discover why discussing end-of-life preferences is crucial as Caputo recounts honoring her father’s wishes for a peaceful passing versus the traumatic hospital death of her mother without known wishes.
🔸 Therapeutic Practices: Learn from Caputo’s approach to providing comfort in therapy—validating experiences without judgment—and its impact on elderly individuals in caregiving settings.
✨ From dealing with personal loss to facilitating meaningful dialogues around mortality, this episode is a testament to the healing power of being heard. Join us for these powerful narratives that highlight compassion, understanding family dynamics, preparing for end-of-life moments, and embracing active grieving processes for growth and peace. 🕊️
Don’t miss out on this enriching discussion filled with practical advice (like using resources such as 5wishes.org) that might just change your perspective on life’s most difficult challenges!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hey. Hey. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Unless this is your first time listening, thank you for joining us. And thank you or being here. Today, my guest is Yvonne Caputo. She is a psychotherapist, corporate trainer, consultant, and she has been a teacher and the head of a human resource department in a retirement community. She has a master’s degree in education and clinical psychology. She is the author of Flying With Dad, a daughter, a father, and the hidden gifts and his stories from World War two, and Dine With Dad tough talks for easier endings. Thank you so much for being here. And when I was looking through your laundry list of lost which I think if we all just took stock and wrote down really all of the stuff that we’ve been through, that life is thrown at us, whether from childhood or dog, you know, or first pet dying or having to move once, twice, three, four times, losing friendships in that process as adults, moving and having to change communities. And, you know, it’s I mean, just you become ingrained in where you live. Right? Like, these relationships become ever of your life, the UPS man, the mail man, the your delivery people, you get to know these people. I’m just kinda going off a tangent here, but If we think about how many losses we really have in life, I think we would be kinda shocked. Most of us. I mean, I I’ve I’ve done that, and I was shocked But, you know, I think it’s good from time to time to really take stock of the things that have happened to us that have shaped us. And so, what are the losses that have shaped you? And the work that you’re doing.
Yvonne Caputo: It it’s interesting you started out the way you did because it brought up something. That I sort of forgotten. And that’s that in nineteen eighty nine, I met and married this wonderful man. That’s not a loss, but he had two children from a previous marriage that he was committing to living near. So I, without thinking much about it, knew that I was going to be leaving the city that I loved leaving a job that I loved, leaving friends that I loved, and moving into this unknown world, and then when I got to Southeastern Pennsylvania.
I couldn’t find a teaching physician. So all of those things combined I remember thinking if I’m not okay in two years, with all of these changes and losses, then I’ll go back to therapy. I was in therapy at six months. Because, you know, as you said, leaving a town that I’ve been in for twenty years, leaving a kinds of friends leaving those connections. It was Erie, Pennsylvania, and it’s one of the most beautiful places in the world. It has a pen insulin that’s thirteen and a half grams around that I used to ride every day after I would leave my teaching position. So there were lots of losses. Becoming a step parent, becoming a parent for the first time. You know, to a nine and seven year old. So it was it was a mixed bag.
It was one of the best things are ever done. We celebrated our thirty fifth wedding anniversary yesterday. But yes, there were lots of losses. In that celebration.
Victoria Volk: Well, happy anniversary.
Yvonne Caputo: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. Like, that’s the perfect example of these things that people generally forget about. Right? Like, we just don’t it it’s like, well, it wasn’t traumatic or you know, we we have this we tend to have this hierarchy or compare. And, you know, I shouldn’t be sad about this. This should be a great time, but yet it’s the both and
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm. Can
Victoria Volk: be incredibly excited about something but incredibly sad and melancholy and grieving. Two, we can do we can hold both of those things at the same time.
Yvonne Caputo: I use this phrase with my clients. A lot, but I also use it generally in life. Sound mental health is the ability to contain the paradox. You can, you can’t, you will, and you won’t, it isn’t, it isn’t. So sadness and joy can be together in the same bubble. And knowing that I think is extremely soothing, you know, to be able to say, okay, I can be sad about this. And at the same time, I can experience joy the joy that goes with it. But you’re right. That was not something I was taught in grade school, nor was I, you know, taught in high school or college. It was only later in life that I heard that statement from a psychologist and I went, oh, wow. Boy does that say it all? And when I think about it containing the paradox, What’s a good synonym for contained? Mhmm. There really isn’t one. You know, it it it really is what it is. It’s it’s that it’s right there at the same time. Two things. So you’re absolutely right. We can hold joy and we can hold sadness at the same time.
Victoria Volk: You said hold in and I was actually thinking holding, like, just holding both of those emotions, like, contained in holding. But at the same time, it’s, like, it has to go somewhere. Right? The grief has to go somewhere. Even the joy has to go somewhere. Right? Like, we can’t it’s like, you know, if you are so grateful for somebody and you really let’s say, I mean, withholding our pain and our grief can have the same effect of holding our joy and our appreciation and our gratitude for people. Right? Like, there is a suffering that happens in that too. Right? Because I think I don’t know if I’m getting my I’m not getting my point across here. What I’m trying to say, but the energy has to go somewhere. Right? And so either the energy of joy or the energy of sorrow, like containing it does something to our bodies. You know, we can manifest symptoms. And if we don’t speak it or don’t share it or if we do, will it be received the right way? Or will it, you know, we can have these expectations of, if we say something to somebody that’s positive, will they have the response we want? You know what I mean? Like, there’s just that’s getting into, like, really deepen the weeds of relationships and communication and all of that. But I’m not sure I’m get getting my point across here, but Maybe you
Yvonne Caputo: There are two things that I think of when you say that. And that’s for any of us when we’re hearing somebody who is in sorrow or who is in joy. To listen Mhmm. To just listen. And, you know, nod heads or say aha or even tell me more, you know, to invite that person to continue on that path that they’re on because Absolutely. They need to explore it. They need to explain it. They need to have somebody who’s going to who is going to validate it just by listening. The second thing that I think of is this. When my father died, I was with him. And his dying wish was to be taken feet first out of his own home. Which meant he was gonna be on a gurney. And that’s exactly what happened. And when the EMTs put the gurney down behind the ambulance and the ambulance doors were open. And I saw the look on my father’s face. I went Yes. And the EMTs looked at me like I lost every marble I might have had. But what joy was coming out of me was the soft sweet smile on my dad’s face. Because he and I had had intimate talks about death and dying. And I knew exactly what he wanted. And when I saw that the end was coming, being with him at home, the EMT’s working on him, I knew what had to do. I picked up the phone, I called the hospital, I said, you know, so do not resuscitate water on dad’s chart. They’re bringing him in. Please make sure it’s at the emergency room when they come. Now that’s not the first time of his own home. But Grace was with me in that the emergency room doctor called and said, you can stop working on it. So I laid down beside my father. I told him that I loved him. I told him that he was gonna be with my mother, which is part of our conversation. He saw mister. And then I did what we always did in our family, the glue, I said the Lawrence prayer in his ear. And he was gone. So that joy did get expressed And it’s hard for people to understand that I continue to feel that profound sacred joy when I think about my dad’s death because he and I worked so closely on how he wanted it to be.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. You are on the same team. Like, you were his cheerleader, you were his advocate. And I think so many people don’t get that opportunity, first of all, don’t maybe have that safe person that they trust. Maybe, you know, to follow through. Right? When because we’re taught how to acquire things and people people not what to do when we lose them. So what got you to that point to be able to be able to let go and not hold this grip and not let your ego get in the way.
Yvonne Caputo: My entire career from the time I graduated from college, feels like preparation for that journey.
Victoria Volk: You
Yvonne Caputo: know, being the teacher, being the psychotherapist, particularly working in the retirement community. As a member of the executive team, I sat on the ethics committee. And we had a case where a woman with severely tameshia could no longer communicate at all, developed an abscess on her foot, and the doctor in charge said, local bass and antibiotics. The daughter trying to be her mother’s advocate said, no. Mom’s advance directive, the document which gives legal power to somebody to speak if you can’t speak for yourself. Said quality of quality of life. And the daughter didn’t feel like antibiotic, cerebral palsy would equality of life that it was really time to let her mother go. The problem was that the quality that quality of life was recognized in our state. And so the case ended up going to court, a surrogate was provided to allow for the BaaS any antibiotic and then should that not help and an amputation be needed, the god the daughter could step in and say no. I’m sitting here on this case and I’m thinking about my dad and I’m like, whoa. Does he have an advanced directive? What is that? How do I go about getting one of that? One of them. So I did some research. Social workers are very helpful. And I called dad, and I said, I know you have a will, but do you have an advanced directive? What’s that? So I explained it. And he said, oh, no. He said, I never never thought about doing anything like that. And I said, well, okay, Dan. If I find an attorney and I come home, Would you be willing to sit and get it done? And he said, sure. So here I went to the attorney’s office and he made me, his healthcare, his legal, medical power of attorney. And so I felt pretty good about that until one of the vice presidents came back from a leading age conference. And this is conference that does everything about retirement communities. And she had this document called the five wishes. And she was just so excited about what this document did. And I asked her if I could borrow it. She said, sure, return that bar. It laid on my desk for a long time, and my desk was pretty messy. So one Friday night, I decided I needed to clean off my desk so that the housekeeping people would clean it because they wouldn’t touch it. If it was the way I kept it. And I pulled out the five wishes and started to read and I went, oh, by. This takes an advanced directive to places I never dreamed or possible. How comfortable do you want to be? What do you want your children to know? What do you feel best about in your life? And very simply laid out, the questions were all there. If dad if I was gonna do this with dad and dad said, no, I don’t want that. No, I don’t want that. All I had to do is cross a line. And I took the document. I wrote one for myself and I took the document and drove home to see that kind of quaking because my father get angry quickly. So I wasn’t quite sure what I was gonna meet when here I was taking in something that was similar to something he’d already done, but he was in just the right frame of mind. He towing his legs over the hospital bed. That’s where he was again. He was a broken diabetic. Pat in the seat. I sat down in the warmth of him. And we went over the five wishes. Question by question by line. Do you want your organs to be given after you die. That’s one of the questions. Dad said, hell no. He said, I can’t imagine anybody would wanna probably in Rack and Rowan. Do you want what do you want for your funeral? Well, he said my husband was gonna say because he’s got a glorious tender voice. He named exactly what songs he wanted in the funeral. He said, I want you children and grandchildren to do the readings, but you choose. You know what we’ll speak to you. And so on and on, he goes, and I’m writing these kinds of things down. And at the end of getting it done, I just reached for his hand, and once again, it was the Lord’s prayer. And it was one of the most intimate beautiful transcending experiences I’ve ever had in my life. So when the time came, I knew what dad wanted, and I went into automatic pilot. He had trusted me with the advanced directive and he had trusted me and named me on the five wishes. And there was no way in the world that I was not gonna honor. What he asked me to do. So for your audience in grieving voices, for me, do I miss my dad? Oh, absolutely. Would I like to cook one more pot roast dinner for him? Absolutely. Are there questions I have for him about world war two and other things that he did? Absolutely. Can I mail into tears and he’s been gone fourteen years now? Absolutely. But also in there is this profound, sacred joy that will make me just smile. Because of dad’s trust in me, that gift he gave me and the gift I gave him in return.
Victoria Volk: Were you an only child?
Yvonne Caputo: No. I remember
Victoria Volk: how did that work with communicating to the siblings and did they were they all on board with everything as well?
Yvonne Caputo: They were on board. My sister said she probably couldn’t have done it. To backtrack, there’s another story. One of the sorrows that I have, one of the things that I still grieve is my mother’s dementia. She went from being one of the most gifted women I’ve ever known. Intellectually, socially, spiritually. And to see her, not know what she did five minutes ago. It was heartbreaking. So we had some things we needed to do when she had surgery for colon cancer. And my brother and sister and I or a team. And my older brother said, okay, Yvonne, you take care of the psychological piece. You know that. Connie, you take care of some of the medical pieces, and I can take care of these. So we kind of divvied up the the the responsibilities so that when the time came, you know, it was me. It was me that then did what I needed to do. And the result of what that was is they were both pleased. They missed the fact that they weren’t with dad, but they were pleased that he had somebody with him. And that I stepped in and and did what he asked me to do.
Victoria Volk: You think it was the contrast of that experience with your mother that really kind of propelled you to curate a different experience with your dad?
Yvonne Caputo: Absolutely. Absolutely. My mother died in the hospital, in the sterile and god bless hospitals for what they do. I mean, I I wanna say that, but in this sterile atmosphere, and I called her on the phone. We’re six and a half hours apart by driving. And she started screaming. You’ve gone get me out of here. You’ve gone get me out of here. I don’t want to be here. You’ve gone get me out of here. It was so bad. That the nurse came in and took the receiver from her and talked to me and said, I’ll get it quieted down. I’m gonna hang up. That was the last conversation I had with my mother. And when she died, I was so angry. I was angry that she died in the hospital. I was angry that she died without somebody beside her. And you’re right. It propelled me in a way Mhmm. To think about that doing something with that differently. So in this case, grieving can be the voice that you need to hear or the need that you need to respond to. In order to do something that needs to be done?
Victoria Volk: You had kinda touched on. I just kinda wanna back pedal a little bit, and we’re gonna kinda jump around here a little bit, but you had touched on your dad’s anger. And, you know, I’m a veteran too, and so I have a really soft spot for veterans and, I mean, World War two is the greatest generation. Right? What was your experience growing up? With that relationship with anger? And what were you taught about grief growing up?
Yvonne Caputo: The anger was always just below the surface. So I remember it being a teenager asking for thirty five cents so I could go to the Saturday evening high school dance. And my dad just flipped. Gave me the thirty five cents but it was it was painful because he was so angry. That was there a lot. The other part is if I were if I was in tears over something, and I was I’m hypersensitive. I there’s a technical term for it. And if I was in tears, I was told to go into my room until I could get myself settled. There was no warmth through or come here, honey, what what’s the matter? Tell me about. There was none of that. So I didn’t learn what to do with my emotions. Until I went into therapy. And that was me to late twenties when I just looked at my life and said it’s not working. I’m doing the same things over and over again and I’m getting the same results. So I got into therapy where I finally learned what those childhood experiences meant, what they taught me to do, and how I could do things differently. But what changed my relationship with my father was world war two. Because one, evening in two thousand and eight. He and I were on the phone. And we do blood tests and dialysis treatments and doctor and send the people across the street who were giving them in home care, and then we’d stall for anything to talk about. I’m not a sports fan. You know, my brother and sister had sports and dad and they could just go on and on and on about that kind of thing. But wasn’t wasn’t in my backpack, but dad opened up and told me your World War two story, quirky, funny off the wall about of all things losing their third engine which had the hydraulics and making an emergency landing in free Belgium. And I, as a history book, said to my dad, let me get a pencil and paper. I wanna take notes. What the hell do you wanna do that? So how it came about Victoria, I don’t know, but the next phone call I said, tell me more. And the story’s just started rolling. My taking notes, my asking TAM questions, my listening to the stories, changed our relationship deeply. He began to trust me and opened up to me in ways that I never dreamt possible growing up as a kid. I say frequently through dad’s stories, I got the father knows who wanted. He got the daughter, he didn’t know he had. And I was in my sixties when all this happened. So that’s all a part of this, you know, grieving that in my sixties, I learned something about listening. About opportunities to listen. Now, of course, I did that as a therapist and why it didn’t occur to me to do it my own father. I don’t know. But he didn’t. What came out of that for me was the deep understanding of where my dad’s anger came from. It was PTSD. He went into the war because he wanted to fly. That was his main that was it. He wouldn’t have had to have gone. He had a presidential deferment that would have kept him home because he repaired airplanes. He repaired the airplanes that young testing pilots in in dad’s words busted off. So here’s a guy who watched a fly, e ends up in England as a navigator on b24s, watching playing after playing after playing, explode in the sky because it hit flexed or it was tracked by a German jet. And he came home with that. But he told me at some point when we were doing all of this talking, said when I came home, and everybody seemed to be fine. I walked around Meville, my hometown, and saw guys that I knew were that were in the service, and they seemed to be just fine. So I wanted to know what was wrong with me. He had a recurring nightmare that lasted for three years. He had a flashback sixty years after the war, none of which he understood. So part of the closeness that came for Dad and I was when those kinds of things came up in our conversation because of my background, I could explain what they were and why they happened. And that it was a normal thing to experience when you have witnessed such abnormality. So that that talks about the anger and where it came from when I was a child and how dad and I navigated through it. Even to the point where the last phone call he had with me, he had been released from the hospital. I had said, To the social worker, he can go home when he’s ready. Well, he they sent him home, no pain medication. He was an agony. He called me on the phone, and he ripped into me. I’m holding the phone. Out here, you know, while he’s doing it. And I said to him, I said, dad, I said, I told him you could go home, when you are ready. Doesn’t sound like you are ready. Victoria, he apologized. He said, oh, honey, I’m so sorry. I yelled at you. I didn’t mean it. And I replied, dad, you were just venting. It’s okay. So the grace that came with this closeness that I developed with my father is I got an apology. When we talk about grieving, I do miss that relationship. The one that I that dad and I were able to get to before he died. I missed that.
Victoria Volk: I missed that for you. My dad my dad was a Vietnam vet. Oh, what I know now about energy work and grief and all of that, I think he just held it all in. And it killed him, and he died of colon cancer at forty four. And he slept with a knife under the mattress. So coming back to the greater message about this is becoming that safe space to listen and having the patience to listen. I think it takes patience too. Right? Especially in this Western world. Right? We’re just let’s go go go go go. I have an example that perfectly illustrates this. My my I have a daughter that is a waitress. And there was a retired gentleman that had come in and he was asking her questions, like, what are her interests and things like that, and she said she what are her favorite classes in school and she said math and and shop class. He heard shop class and She said for the next twenty minutes, he just shared his life story about woodworking and his love of cabinetry and all of these things. And he tipped her, you know, a small small modest tip, a general, like, ten percent, whatever. Typical tip but he she noticed he was still outside when she was getting off of work. And she comes outside to take off the open flag and he approaches her, and he said, hands are a hundred dollar bill. And he said, this is for your next shop project. And she was so ecstatic. And she told him, she’s I can’t take this. This is too much. She said, no. I wanna give it to you. This is for your next next shot project. And she came home and she was so excited and she shared with me and I was and I said to her, this is exactly what I said to her. I said, you gave him your time. You listened to his stories. That’s what that meant to him, I believe. Mhmm.
You had a shared interest, you were interested in hearing what he had to say, and he was excited to share. He gave him your time. He listened. So I just thought that was a great story to tie into this listening piece and giving people our time.
Yvonne Caputo: Well, that Same kind of listening happened very frequently to me when I was in the retirement community. My office was up on the third floor. And I want as the Human Resource Vice President. I want it by office away from the home of So if an employee wanted to come see me, they could do so, you know, discreetly. Because going to my office was like going to the principal’s office, you know. But my office was on the same wing as a lot of the residents. And I always had an open door, and they would come in and sit down And eventually for some, what was said is this. Yvonne, I just wanna go. I wanna be done. I wasn’t hearing suicidal ideation. I was hearing Well, let me finish by saying okay. My response was okay. Tell me more. My friends are gone. My partner’s gone. I’m in physical pain all the time. I’m not doing the things that I love to do. I’m just ready. And I would ask what’s your base perspective? Because when my mother said that very same thing to me a month before she died, I said the mom talked to God. You and God decide when it’s time. But that kind of listening was what was needed in those moments when the residents came in or when my mom said it. Tell me about it. So and it can be so helpful, particularly with people who are grieving. Tell me about it. What’s it like? And no interruptions and no commentaries And no Well, let me tell you about how I You just let them talk till they can’t till there’s nothing left to say. And that’s what you said earlier about, how do you get rid of it? Mhmm. How do you how do you put it out there? I was asked by Seventh Great Teachers to come and talk to their kids about therapy. And I said, to the teachers. Please have the kids write questions. What do they want to know? So I’m not up there blabbering about what I do. I’m addressing their concerns. I saved the best question for last, and it was I read the question and my story just bounced out of me. It was not anything I planned. I said to and if you can imagine a group of seventh graders. I said, have you ever had a vomit? Have you ever had a stomach that was just churning in ugly? And you try to hold it down and you try to hold it down. But there was a point at which you either got to the bathroom or you got to a waste basket because it was coming whether you wanted it or not. And it was gonna smell ugly and it was gonna taste ugly and it was gonna look gross. And I really went into the effect great film. I said, however, how did it feel once it was all over? And they all responded, it felt better. And I said, that’s what therapy is. Because the the person who asked the question was, if it’s so good for us, has come at heart so much. So it’s again that, you know, when dad told me the nightmare, the recurring nightmare, He was in the b twenty four. It was going down. He needed to get out. There was a place that he had to get through on his hands and knees. And on the sides of this kind of tunnel, little tunnel thing was all stainless steel. Any couldn’t grab onto anything. There was nothing to pull himself through. And he always woke up screaming, and mom would say, what is it like? And dad was out to the home. It’s just a bad dream. It was so bad at touring. He’d done channels in the mattress. Three years of those kinds of nightmares. So when we were talking about it, I explained the normality. Of nightmares given what he witnessed. And Sarcasm was an artful language in my family. So I ended the conversation with dad by just saying, Sorry, Hal. You’re just normal. But I literally could hear his shoulders drop. Knowing that what he had considered to be something wrong with him for all of those years was a normal response. To a traumatic event. And that’s central to my passion, okay, for talking to people particularly about death and dying. Having those conversations with my father were hard, hearing what he had to say was hard, knowing that we were talking about something that was going to happen was hard. But it created it was a part of the whole thing right there that created the closeness that he was he trusted me enough to open up to say, okay, in the end, this is what I want, and this is why I want it. So that’s another passion that I have. Is that My five wishes are done. My children have. My five wishes. We talk about the end for me and what I want and what I don’t want. Now, it’s been a while, so I recognize that I need to go back and do that document again. But I don’t want them to experience what I experienced with my mom. What did she want? How did she want it to be? What would have been better for her? Because it certainly wasn’t a good thing that she was in the hospital all by herself in that sterile atmosphere.
Victoria Volk: Well, in estimate, a different approach too. I mean, once someone has is suffering from dementia, it’s a little bit harder to do this, like, to prepare. Right? Because you don’t know what frame of mind they’re necessarily in. And if it’s an honest depiction of really what they want, maybe, is that accurate or, like Yeah. Like, what is your advice, I guess, for listeners who, well, I guess, take care of it as soon as possible before this before dementia is even a thing. But What would you what would be your advice for that?
Yvonne Caputo: My advice is no matter what the age. No matter what your age is, get the documents, get them done, put them in a safe place. And broach the subject with your children. If it’s an older person, broach the subject with your children, children You ask your parents. You know, when the end comes, mom, what do you want? How would you like it to be? Oh, honey, I I don’t think we should talk about that. Well, I’m gonna plant the seed, mom, because I’m gonna come back and ask you again. At some point because I want to be able to take care of you in the way that you weren’t taken care of. The five wishes w w w dot five wishes dot org, the document itself costs five dollars. You can do it online if you’d like, so you can, you know, use your typing and all that kind of stuff. And that stays for a year and a half. They keep that that for a year and a half. Also, in their store, they have a booklet. How to talk about it? How to bring it up. So they give guidance in that respect. Treat death and dying other than the elephant living room. You know, we we say, don’t we death and taxes? The only thing that we could be sure we’re in death and taxes. We’ll talk about the taxes. But we won’t talk about the death. I was lucky. I know that. It’s not always possible to die in the way that you would like. Because that happens. But if it is possible, yet made the grieving process for me so much easier. So much easier. Because I knew what dad wanted and I acted on what dad wanted and we talked about it, we would be on the phone. After the document was done. And he would just pipe up and say, oh, I want to go. I’d say, okay. Talk to me. Tell me. And then sometimes we would be on the phone and I would say, I haven’t heard you say you want to go. Well, things have been good, you’ve gone. I’ve been feeling pretty good and things gone along pretty well, so I guess I’m not ready now. So that’s the way, you know, that’s how easily it became for us to talk about it. As I said earlier, when I have the back of the heartbeat, you betcha. But equal to wanting him back on a heartbeat is the joy.
Victoria Volk: This is a reminder to me because I I’m a trained end of, like, do a thank you for that resource. I’m gonna actually add it to my website, but I have not asked my mom. And she’s gonna be eighty two. So it’s like, you know when I’m in it? I’m in it. I you know, and I haven’t done anything with that training since I received it. I didn’t know what that was gonna look like. I honestly, I still really don’t. It’s just a tool in my toolbox. And so what you’re talking about is, like, speaking my language. Right? Like, my my dad passed away in the nursing home. I know it’s not probably the way he wanted to go. And I know for sure that’s not how my mom wants to go. So that I do know. She’s made that very clear. But as far as these other things, I haven’t we haven’t had that conversation. And I think I get so wrapped up in my day to day and, like, the work that I do, like, I’m not asking the most important person, what do you want? You know? So this has been a very good reminder for me. To do so. So thank you for that gift today.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re welcome. And to spread it even a little further, My granddaughter was diagnosed in her senior year in high school with leukemia. She’s fine. She’s in her mission. Okay? She’s twenty three now and she’s doing very well. But she was the five wishes were were given to her at seventeen to fill out. And this was chalk in Los Angeles. Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles. They say it differently, choppies and Philadelphia. But I thought that that was pretty interesting. That the hospital would give her that document and ask her to complete it. Wow. Seventeen. So it’s made me very aware of dates. And folks that have there’s just some beautiful stories that go with dying with dad. One young person, like, to me, somebody in the forties as young, said, my parents have tried to talk to me about it. And I just said, no. No. It’s not gonna happen right now. We don’t have to worry about that. You know, it’s too soon. And it flipped for her. She said, yeah, we have to talk about it now. And then there was an elderly gentleman who steadfast daughters. My five wishes are done. On my birthday, I wanna do a zoo, and I wanna talk about it. I want you to know what I want. That’s my birthday present. I don’t know anything else. I don’t want any goodies. Just I wanna talk about it. So they got to the part of did you want to be buried or cremated? And he said, I want to be cremated. So the question is, dad, what do you want us to do with your ashes? They said, oh, I don’t care. Do whatever is easy. And that was his persona. You know? Don’t put your side. Well, just do leasing. And he said, just throw a moment of breath. And they said, wait a minute, dad. Wouldn’t you like to have your ashes? Taken to the prairies in Canada where you grew up. In that one room house, He said, well, that’s too much work. Well, wait a minute, dad. What if that’s something we’d like to do? For you? He said, okay, I’ll change that part of my five wishes. Give a take. The most profound was one of the women in my writing school who was acutely ill. Acuteal, years, surgeries, pain, disability. Not doing the job that she loved. And she got the five wishes and filled it out and then sat down and had hard her conversations with her kids and her husband. And I found out that she was going to hospice. She had made the decision no more searches. And what her husband did for us was set up fifteen minute calls on Zoom for her to talk to the women in a writer’s group. It only lasted eight minutes because she was so tired, but she just kept saying, Yvonne, thank you for the five wishes. I can’t tell you what it’s been. My family is in agreement. We’re all talking about the same things. They know I’m ready it’s okay. And it’s because we have to find wishes. What could be better than that?
Victoria Volk: To be able to that self agency, I think, is an organization called Dine with Dignity
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Around Capitol Hill. They’re, you know, pushing legislation across different states. Yeah. I I think it’s a very important topic that hasn’t talked about enough to I don’t think people realize that they have a choice, you know? Like, they have choices. But you’ve had a lot of grief, and I’m I we’re kinda nearing an hour, and I don’t know how you are on time.
Yvonne Caputo: I’m good. But you have
Victoria Volk: a lot of loss in your life that was before your mother, before your father. Would you like to share anything about those experiences and what those taught you?
Yvonne Caputo: I had an uncle. And the cousin who died by suicide. And it taught me to think a great deal about what was so bad. You know, what was what would be so bad that I would no longer want to live. And Are there times like that in everybody’s lives? Of course, there are. However, given what it did to their families, I wouldn’t never do that to my family. I would find a way through the miasma of whatever that bad stuff was. Because I just couldn’t do that to my family. Losing my brother at the age of twenty six in a car accident was one of the most profound grieving experiences I’ve ever had. He and I were very close and we had the same kind of radar in terms of what we wanted and who we wanted to be and how the world got be and all that kind of stuff. And going through the process of grieving his loss, My spirituality was enhanced, a hundred fold. My belief in life. And I’m not gonna say religion because religion isn’t it. It’s spirituality. That what I want from my life is to have made a difference. In whatever way she performed, that that is. I I want to make a difference. And I found that through my brother’s death. The other losses and uncle at the age of fifty two, uncle Mac. When we would see each other. First thing he would do is hold out his arms and expect me to run into them. And then he torn me around and he put me down on the floor. He was the person. He was one of the persons in the family that made me feel special. And he died at the age of fifty two. That was You never know how long. I have I had a great appetite at ninety six. Others who passed away in their late eighties, but you don’t know. He went to sleep one night and he didn’t wake up. You know? So living a life with purpose and trying to remember on a daily basis. What’s important for me to do today? Where do I need to spend my energy? At the end of the day, can I close my eyes and say, yeah, what’s a good day? Or it was a hire date, but that’s okay. So each I think each and every one of them has taught me something. And I was, bless my mother. My mother took me to the library. Well, that’s a little girl. And it was always she would say, what do you wanna read now? And she’d take me to that section, and we would talk about books and she would pull we would pull them out. And even as a little child, I would read about sorrowful things and how sorrowful things impacted the characters in the book. So I knew as a child that it was all it was it wasn’t always rosy and creamy and that kind of stuff. What didn’t happen in childhood was what to do with those feelings. Like I said earlier, that came, you know, when I did therapy. So there has been a learning process in each and every one of those, yes. To make me think about what I want having those documents ready. Right? And closing my eyes the final time and knowing that life was good. It was just good.
Victoria Volk: Was the uncle on your mother or father’s side,
Yvonne Caputo: my mother’s side. The two uncles that I mentioned were both on my mother’s side. And they lived very close to us, you know, so that’s why I had the relationship with them that I did. My uncles on my dad’s side live far away, so we might get to see them once every two years. I didn’t have the same kind of relationship with them.
Victoria Volk: How did you see the dynamic change between your parents when your brother passed? Like, what did that do to the family unit?
Yvonne Caputo: When my father was standing, receiving communion before he took a flight on the mission. He would say, if I come back, it’s God’s will. If I don’t, it’s God’s will. So that was That was how he handled it. My mother never recovered. Never recovered. And she never we were we did the family outing a couple of years. We would rent this big sixty foot houseboat and it had, like, twelve bedrooms in it, and so the whole family would get together and we’d go around the lake in Tennessee. Mom and I were walking in the woods. We could pull up to the shore and anchor, and mom and I were walking in the woods. And she looked around and she said, Oh, Mark would have loved this. Mark being my brother. And then out of her mouth came, oh, Teddy shut up. You should be over this by now. And I said to her, no. Mommy, you can’t. You’re never gonna be over losing a child is something that is with you for your lifetime. But the way she was raised, her generation was. Yeah. You should be over it. Now luckily for mom, she was very much a believer and I think church being able to go to church and have the church. Was reassuring to her, but they handled it very differently. And my father was one who would say, I can’t talk about it. It’s not my way. So I am now thinking that it could have been very helpful for mom to be able to talk about it as much as she needed to talk about it. But she didn’t have anywhere to express it.
Victoria Volk: I’m reading a book right now. The guest is gonna be on my podcast. I’m gonna botch her name, so I’m not even gonna try it. But her first name is Annie, and the book is called Always A sibling. And she talks about the the longest I’d never gave it any thought until I I read sorry, reading this book, but really the relationship with our siblings, if we are blessed to have a sibling, is the longest relationship. If you think about it, because we tend to all live our parents. Even those we marry, we were still in relationship with our siblings first. Like, those are our first and longest relationships. And in the book, she’s just talking about how significant of a loss it really is when you lose a sibling. It’s just very different.
It’s that they’re the people that know you unlike anybody else because they’ve been with you the longest. Anyway, that might be a book you might be interested in reading, but
Yvonne Caputo: Yes. Yes. Because the relationship I had with my brother who died. Was very much like that. We we spoke the same language. We had interest in the very same kinds of things. He was actually Mark called me and said, do you wanna come down to Pittsburgh? We’re gonna go see. It’s a famous nineteen seventies. Gordon, like okay. It came to me. And we did that together, and he was dating my best friend at the time. And then the following day, we went to a huge music store in Pittsburgh, Bullwringers. And he was looking at the coterminous and looking at the so looking at that. And that wasn’t as a fairly material, really interested because I’m not and not musical in the way that work was musical.
And he said, okay. I’m ready to go. All he’s got in his hands It’s this little brown flat envelope. We get in the car. And I said, Mark, what’d you buy? He said dust in the wind. The song by Kansas. All you are is dust in the wind, and your catheter and I are wearing the back seat. What? I think the music is beautiful, but the words are awful. That was the weekend before he died. He died the following Tuesday. So I think that also explains what I said earlier. That that loss, that loss is probably the biggest loss I’ve ever experienced. Ever ever experienced.
Victoria Volk: And yet, it’s not the one that you came on the podcast for.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re right. I didn’t. I feel his presence though, from time to time. It’s like I had this guardian angel. Who’s looking out for me.
Victoria Volk: Was that song played in his funeral?
Yvonne Caputo: No. It wasn’t. But I’ll be doing something. This was more when I be in the car and I have the car turned to a music station. But it would come on and I would feel his presence and it was like this message from beyond. That everything was gonna be fine. That whatever I was experiencing at the time was just normal to life and things would be fine.
Victoria Volk: One of the things that I I share about on my podcast and in conversation with people that you know, I personally had tried hitting a therapy once, my early twenties. And, you know, I’m trained and certified in grief recovery, which is not therapy, but it’s very therapeutic. And it’s not talk therapy. I mean, people talk, of course, but there’s also action. Right?
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: So what do you say and I’m curious what you would say to this too. So that’s why I’m asking if people are listening who follow my podcast, they’re probably wanting me to ask this. So I’m gonna ask. What do you say when to the thought that talk therapy alone doesn’t work? Like, you have to take action with it? What are your thoughts around that? Because and this is this ties into actually another question. When you in your when you talk about processing your grief, like, I wanna know what that looked like for you. What did the act of processing your grief look like because I know what it looked like for me and it was using a method that’s evidence based in yada yada, it’s the grief recovery method. That’s the action piece. What did that look like for you? And what what is the action that you feel like people need to take when they’re in talk therapy or maybe not. I don’t know what’s your perspective of that. Howard Bauchner:
Yvonne Caputo: I value talk therapy. But there’s also something about what you do. Mhmm. It’s the doing thing. So if I go back and I think about the doing thing after Mark died, I would have to say that my presence in the classroom with kids changed. That doing for me was being there for my students in a way that had nothing to do with two plus two weeks before or putting a comma in the right place. It was there to be observant. It was there to look for pain. It was there to be a listening Yeah. It was there to give a hug that if I were to I I just knew. That if I were to be present for the kids, being actively present for the kids and my friends, that that would help me to heal. I would be doing something with the angst that I felt. I can give an example. We were sitting in the living room, talking about the wedding. And it just so happens we were looking through my husband’s Foot album of these parents’ marriage. And oddly enough, we were going to be getting married fifteen years to the day. Obvious ramen dad’s wedding. And and and he didn’t he and I didn’t notice. And and we’re kinda talking about this and and I looked and at the top of the stairs, there’s pavement. She’s seven years old and the tears are just dreaming down her face. So I went up, and we went into her room, and we sat on the bed, and I held her nice aggressive ladder. And she said, I’m never gonna know my grandmother. My grandmother’s dead, and I’m never gonna get to know her. And so I said, that is a sad thing. You’re absolutely right. So that’s an action in terms of how I changed. That Seeing someone in pain gives me an opportunity to stop and say, the listening piece. When I was a human resource professional, we had a very dear resident in the memories ring die. And she’s just lovely even in dementia. She was just one of these precious precious things. And I walked onto the unit and I could see one of the eights just trying to hold back the tears. And I would have turned, I said, could you use a hug? Am I just unfolded her ending? She sobbed. So being able to comfort someone in an active kind of way. Has been one of the ways I’ve managed my own grief. My the only, you know, that loss of of of my brother. Because there were times in my life that he didn’t do that for me or I would do that for him.
Victoria Volk: That’s a perspective I didn’t expect. Thank you for sharing.
Yvonne Caputo: You’re welcome. You’re welcome. I’m grateful to Mark. In the oddest of ways, I am grateful for that grief. I am grateful for his loss. Again, what I am back in the heartbeat? Oh, there’s so much I have to tell them. It’s just so much I have to tell them. I want them to meet this family of mine, but I really started to become something through the grief process. Around his dad that I treasure. And I do say that, you know, when I’m working with people in in grieving, you know, here’s where we go in. Boom. We dropped to the bottom. And then come up when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, when you drop, and it may be years later, we don’t go down again. And that happened to me in England the other mirror. But if we grieve actively, if we do something with our grief, if we honor the feelings, if we process the feelings, if we do something, then here’s where we came in, here’s where we come out. And I’ve got a diagram of this that I show. That grief is away, if processed correctly, that we can become better people, more true to ourselves.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It sounds like your your compassion was just cracked open.
Yvonne Caputo: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: It really does sound like that experience of losing your brother was what just let your compassion flood out and propelled you to give it to others. The love that you couldn’t give to him. Right?
Yvonne Caputo: And I will remember your phrase. That it cracked open because that’s that’s pretty profound in and of itself. Yes, it cracked open.
Victoria Volk: I think for so many of us, for grief loss, you know, it can take us down. And crack us open to where we feel like we’re in a million pieces. But I do think it not that yours I don’t wanna say, like, not that it’s a special person. Right? Not that it How do I wanna say this? I think different people are built. To do something with that. You know, I think a lot of the people that have experienced a lot of grief, a lot of loss or trauma, young in life, throughout life. I think it just builds you differently. You know, I’m yeah. I guess that’s maybe my thought on that. For some people that may not experience a devastating loss until their twenties or thirties or forties later in life, that can be the very thing that just takes them takes them down and they find themselves in just completely lost, not knowing what to do. So what is one thing that you would like to scream to the world?
Yvonne Caputo: I am grateful for the loss of my brother in nineteen seventy eight. Because one of the life lessons that I was given is that If I actively grieve, if I actively work on it, I will get there. And so now if life throws something at me, that’s hard. If I actively work at it, it will get better. And if it doesn’t get better, then It’s time for me a to go talk to somebody or b, sometimes it’s meant for me, ending our relationship. You know, the the process of of greeting Mark and all the listens I learned from that. I hope it’s made me I think it’s made me a better person. And I’ll take that.
Victoria Volk: It’s a beautiful way to end this episode. Thank you for sharing. And Is there anything else that you would like to share that you don’t feel like you got to?
Yvonne Caputo: I think we did well.
Victoria Volk: I think so too. Where can people reach you if they would like to connect with you?
Yvonne Caputo: I don’t have my own website, but they can find me on my published website, which is in in Genium, I n g e n I u m books dot com. My email, if they would like to get in touch with me personally, is fairly simple. Yvonne, y v o n n e, author, a u t h o r, the number four at g mail dot com. Yvonne arthur four at gmail dot com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. So if people wanna message me through LinkedIn, I’m there too.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much.
Yvonne Caputo: In your books, please share your books. Okay. The first book is dying with dad. It sees World War two stories, kind of how those stories gave me the father I always wanted, and he got a daughter that he didn’t know he had. And then dying with that is how I grew. There are lots of growth stories in there to be comfortable talking about death and dying. And the tagline for the book is tough talks for easier endings. It’s how I got into having those intimate conversations with my father and what happened because of that.
Victoria Volk: And you can find those on Amazon.
Yvonne Caputo: Oh, everywhere. Yeah. Amazon earns a noble. If you are if you are an independent bookstore, lovered and they don’t have it on their shelves, just go in and ask them to order it for you.
Victoria Volk: Alright. I will put the links for those books and your LinkedIn and probably your email address. In the show notes. And thank you for your time today. I feel like this was a very rich conversation. I’ve I have a to do list for myself in gratitude of this conversation. Yeah. Thank you for sharing the resource. Five wishes dot org. I will also put that in the show notes. Get on that, everybody. Your own advocate? Before it’s too late, and thank you.
Yvonne Caputo: Oh, you’re welcome. It was a pleasure.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5 |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Uncover the Power of Healing and Transformation
In the latest episode of Grieving Voices, I had the pleasure to chat with Dawn Michele Jackson, a multifaceted professional and best-selling author who is passionate about guiding people from pain to joy after loss.
Dawn opened up about her personal journey through grief following a tough divorce at 30. She shared how she discovered the grief recovery method that revolutionized her life, allowing her to view past events not as setbacks but as stepping stones towards self-discovery and growth.
She delved into how unresolved grief can create barriers in all relationships and discussed how these tools helped her become more present for herself and her children. Dawn also recounted leaving nursing during the pandemic to focus on emotional healing, which led to writing books and facilitating retreats aimed at helping others heal their hearts.
For those feeling stuck in their grieving process or curious about transformative personal development opportunities – this episode is a must-listen!
Tune in now for an inspiring story of resilience, hope, and finding joy amidst life’s challenges. Don’t forget – your heart holds the key to unlocking a fulfilling life beyond grief!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome. Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Thank you for tuning in. Today, my guest is Dawn Michele Jackson. She is an advanced grief recovery method specialist, an infinite possibilities trainer, women’s retreat facilitator, nurse, and an Amazon best selling author. And her primary focus is to guide individuals through healing their hearts transforming their lives and rediscovering joy. She is driven by her profound mission and is dedicated to helping individuals uncover their inner light and shift from surviving to thriving. With her nurturing approach, she skillfully supports her clients in healing their hearts and achieving mind, body, and spirit wellness. Thank you so much for being my guests today, and It’s nice to have a fellow advanced brief recovery method specialist on my podcast. It’s been a while.
Dawn Jackson: Thank you, Victoria. I’m happy to be here this morning.
Victoria Volk: Both of us have the same mission, helping people heal their hearts, that we know it’s possible regardless of what you’ve been through. And today, you’re here to share your personal story of going through a divorce. But there’s always more than that. Right? Because grief is cumulative and cumulatively negative as you and I both know.
But let’s start there. What brought you to grief recovery?
Dawn Jackson: So what brought me to grief recovery is I had done after my divorce at the age of thirty. My world kind of fell apart. You know, I had that white picket fence dream, and it was shattered. And I had a three and a half year old son. I didn’t really know how to move forward. So I realized that I could choose two things. I could continue to be angry about my husband decided he wanted a divorce or I could choose to heal and move forward. So I had done all kinds of workshops and retreats, you know, to try and heal the things that were hurting me. And not all of them provided a little bit of relief. None of them helped me feel completely better to the point of moving forward in a direction that I felt like I was thriving. And then I came across the grief recovery method. My mom had done the program and become a specialist and she referred me and my significant other to the method and he actually signed me up And at the time he did, I said to him. And I always laugh about this. I don’t have any grief. Because in my mind, grief was about death. Right? And I had lost a grandparent, but I didn’t have anybody else really close that had died. So that’s kind of the joke because I quickly learned within the first hour of the training that I was suffering a great deal of grief from things that it happened for my entire life. So my divorce is one of the first relationship I decided to work on and heal because I knew that to be, you know, an effective parent, I needed to you know, let go of some of the pain that was keeping me stuck.
Victoria Volk: And did you say your significant your husband at the time signed you up?
Dawn Jackson: No. My said no. So my husband I were divorced, but my son Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay. And how has that relationship changed and shifted since you’ve gone through this method because you share a child, right? You still have to have some communication, I imagine, and
Dawn Jackson: So our son is now an adult and he’s twenty six years old. So I guess what changed for me is that I began to see our divorce is really a gift in my life because when we got divorced, I didn’t know who I was. I was a mom, I was a nurse, and I was a wife, but I had put so much focus on all of those that I didn’t really even know what I like to do, you know, for, you know, extracurricular activities. So for me, It helped me find myself again. My husband leaving was my catalyst for healing finding my authentic self, being able to create the life that I wanted. And at some point, I was able to go back to him and just be instead of angry, I found this peace inside and actually so much gratitude for him, for our marriage, for our child having a child together and for the divorce. And so I think that it’s allowed us to have a healthy relationship and I see that he also has a lot of gratitude for me. So I think that me changing, me healing, you know, has made it comfortable circle so that we can have a good relationship. And while we rarely talk to each other since our child is now an adult, during those years when he was growing up, it really helped us navigate our relationship smoother.
Victoria Volk: For those listening that this might be the first episode they stumble upon and maybe you’re hearing about grief recovery for the first time because I try and talk about it a lot through my episodes, but can you just share a little bit about what grief recovery is in your perspective? And, yeah, Yeah.
Dawn Jackson: So a great recovery is it’s an evidence based tool to help people move from a place of pain and just barely surviving to actually some recovery, which means being able to while you still have the memories associated with some type of loss in your life, you can move forward with the good memories versus having the pain in your heart that you continue to carry forward in everything you do because all the pain leaves us at a disadvantage in all of our relationships because we bring it forward. It’s kind of like if we can all think about our first love way back when probably we were a teenager. And our heart was completely open with that person. And then we got because most of us are not with our first love. So you get hurt. And then the next relationship you go into, your heart is a little less open. So that a closed heart creates problems in the relationship because we don’t show up in the same way. And then we have another person who’s had past relationships and their hearts a little bit close too. So by going through the act and the tools of the grief recovery method, we’re able to let go of some of that stuff that we’re holding on to that keeps us from being able to have the types of relationships and really the life that we dream about.
Victoria Volk: I say too, like for me personally going through grief recovery myself, it really made me a much more present and emotionally evolved parent I would say, like, I a better version of myself as a parent, I think, came as a result of going through grief recovery, would you agree that that was your experience too?
Dawn Jackson: Oh, I would totally agree. Because there was so much stuff that was kind of keeping me stuck, holding me back from being the best version of myself. That once I was able to do so much healing, I was able to show up in different ways for my child that I hadn’t been able to in the past. I mean, I remember right after my divorce for, like, months. I had a hard time just getting through each day. It was like, I knew I had to get up. I knew I had to take care of my child. But I was always looking forward to when do I get to go to sleep. I know I had nothing to do with my child. I just was so stuck in the grief of I failed marriage and feeling like I was a failure that I didn’t know how to navigate you know, being a single parent and I thought that he wasn’t in the picture. He was always in the picture. But just, you know, day to day not having him in the house anymore. And just navigating, you know, everything with my child without another person, you know, around was very difficult for me. So it took quite some time for me to figure out how to take steps in my life. To move forward and how to find that happiness again.
Victoria Volk: When you’re first going through the divorce in your relationship with your spouse at the time? Did you have a lot of your own friendships outside of the marriage? Like, girlfriends and things? Or was it where most of your friends, like, shared friends with him? And I what I hear a lot from women who have experienced divorce that come on my podcast, it’s, you know, it’s like you have your your together friends. And then when that relationship falls, you know, comes apart and you divorce, you lose a lot of people. In your list because of it? And was that your experience as well?
Dawn Jackson: So our closest friends were a couple that we hung out with all the time. So that was very, very difficult. And in fact, she was the one that I talked to almost every night, you know, crying wishing that something would change, wishing that he would change his mind, that we could stay together. And I know that was very difficult for her as well because we couldn’t do all those couple things together. So it was a loss for all four of us. Right? And then later they ended up divorced as well. So, you know, it was heartbreaking really because we were also close. We’d go on trips together and spend weekends together or kids were the same age, so they grew up together. So yes, I can relate to that. Luckily, since I was a nurse, I had lots of friends at work, and they really picked me up. And I remember they said, okay, well, we’re gonna go hiking this weekend, and I said, oh, I can’t do that. How long how far are you gonna go? Oh, five miles? Oh, I can’t do that. And the joke is we decided to go on the hike. I agreed And, like, I was way ahead of them on the trail, and so they remind me of that to this day, but it was really those friends that were able to help me get through the time because they could see how sad I was and, you know, that I just didn’t know what to do with my life, having lost. One of the most important people in my life.
Victoria Volk: You’d mentioned that your mom had gone through the method herself did she become certified as well?
Dawn Jackson: She did. Mainly, she did it for herself. She didn’t end up, you know, working with clients or anything, but she definitely gained a lot from the experience. So she was the one, the proponent of, you know, me going and checking out the program, seeing how it would help me because it had created such a change in her life.
Victoria Volk: And what drew her to to the method?
Dawn Jackson: I think, you know, just stuff from her past, from her childhood, that she and I don’t remember how she found it, but she just wanted to feel different. She just wanted to feel better. And you know, she I always grew up with dogs, two golden retrievers, and she’d lost so many of them, you know, by the time I became an adult. And that was just heartbreaking for her. So I think that was another reason that attracted her to the grief recovery method because she just wanted to find some peace and ability to move forward because it weighed so heavily on her heart.
Victoria Volk: Had she also been with your father when he had passed? Like, were they still together? No.
Dawn Jackson: They were no longer together. So they got divorced about the same age as my husband I got divorced. Like, my son was about three and a half, and I was about three and a half when my parents divorced as well.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So not only are you going through your own divorce, but it’s compounded by the divorce of your parents.
Dawn Jackson: Correct.
Victoria Volk: Yes. And you’re an adult at this point. And that can be You know what I mean? Like, it’s one thing to once you’re an adult in your parents divorce, I think there’s a whole different it’s so many different layers to that. Can you speak to that a little bit? How that maybe influenced how you felt about your divorce or what that was like, experiencing that from the perspective of a child? Mhmm. And as the person going through it.
Dawn Jackson: So I think, you know, probably a lot of people think this way, you know, when their parents divorce, when their young children, they think about their future and their partner, and they never want to go through a divorce. Right? Because they’ve experienced it and it doesn’t feel good. And while it worked out best for my mom and my dad, there was just part of me that always had wished they had stayed together, you know, that it had worked out in some way. So for me, you know, I had wanted so badly for my marriage to stay intact and then it didn’t. So that was pretty heartbreaking. I yeah. I definitely think that that added to my grief.
Victoria Volk: And maybe how you looked at your son. Right? And because you’re grieving I mean, am am I wrong to say that you were a grieving child, an adult child?
Dawn Jackson: Correct. Yeah. No. I would definitely say that I was. There were so many things, you know, about my childhood. I mean, you know, my mother was wonderful. She was always there for me. But there was just things about it like my parents divorce and, you know, both of them remarried and those things while they did provide a lot of happiness. There was also sadness because it wasn’t the intact family that I had hoped for. And then when I couldn’t give that to my son.
You know, I felt like failure.
Victoria Volk: Since you went through grief recovery and you’ve been working with clients, what are some of the things in going through the divorce that you share from your experience with the people that you work with.
Dawn Jackson: You know, I always share with people really how I felt right when it happened because what I notice is so many people don’t talk about it. You know, how devastated they are and how much their life feels like it’s been turned upside down and those days of not wanting to get out of bed and, you know, just wishing the hours away. I always share that with people because it’s I usually get a response, oh my gosh, like, I’ve felt that way before. Like, I just didn’t know how to know how to move on. Because unfortunately in society, you know, we’re just expected to keep moving forward. Keep busy, you know, one of the myths. And it’s kinda like when we go through a death. Right? We get usually the one or two days off of work and that’s it and we’re expected to come back and just be normal again. Well, it’s really no difference with divorce. I mean, divorce is a death too. Right? But a couple days, we don’t just feel better. You know, it’s just a reminder every single day when we wake up and we’re alone. That our marriage didn’t work out. And so I always share my personal stories about, you know, the way that I felt after my divorce and, you know, navigating being a mom as well, a single mom and the difficulties behind that.
Victoria Volk: Before we started to record you had shared about your father passing. And at that point, you had already been a certified grief specialist, advanced specialist. Is that correct?
Dawn Jackson: Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So how having the tools now in your toolbox versus not having them before until you did. How was that experience? Did you find that that was your ability to cope and move through that? Grief different now that you had the tools?
Dawn Jackson: You know, when I went through my divorce, I really didn’t have any tools. I mean, I had some. Right? But I hadn’t really started my healing journey. So all I knew was I was angry, I was sad, I didn’t know how to move forward. I thought I would never feel better. And you know, when I lost my dad, while I still had some of the same emotions, I knew that I had some tools that when I chose to use them would help me move forward and feel better. So there was hope. Right? Because I knew that I wasn’t stuck forever. And, you know, like, I always remind my clients because we do the work when we’re ready. Right? It’s not like something happens in the next day, we do the healing work. It usually takes a little bit of time before we’re ready. And I always remind people that when it’s the right time, you know, you will do the work, but just make sure that you’re still willing to do it. Right? Because you know you have these tools. So you need to step into them when you’re ready. So like I said, it gave me hope. You know, after I lost my dad because that was pretty devastating to me as well. But I knew that I had a way out of the pain. So I was grateful that I had learned the grief recovery method before he died.
Victoria Volk: I think it’s one thing to have someone in our life who we look up to and value their opinions, such as our mother who suggests something that you know, and we and when we witness it changing their life. Right? It’s I think it’s easier to buy in to Right. Something. Right? So it was easier for you to buy into the grief recovery method because you had seen how it helped your mother and changed her life. Mhmm. So for those listening who have or hearing about Great Recovery for the first time who, you know, when we say, yes, you need to be ready to do the work. It also takes courage. You might not be ready. You know, you might not be ready, but you don’t get ready by not putting your shoes on. And taking action to do the work. Yes. You get ready by getting ready. You know?
Dawn Jackson: Right. No. Yeah. You totally have to have the courage. You have to make the decision to step through the fear. I mean, like, I have a great example that’s going on in my life today. So When I left my nursing job two years ago, I decided one of the things I wanted to do was try backpacking because my son has been going backpacking since he was a teenager. And so I decided to go on a backpacking trip with them. So fast forward, I haven’t gone on one since twenty twenty two. And so he called me up last week and said, hey, you wanna go on five day backpacking trip with me. And so, you know, he sends me some information about it, and I’m looking, oh my goodness, the elevation and, you know, the miles we’re gonna do and everything. So I’m super excited. And then, you know, the last couple days, I’m, like, have this fear. Like, oh, boy, can I do this? Like, I’m two years older, and it’s a lot of miles and how’s my back gonna feel? And, you know, so it’s a reminder of those things like, we have to choose to step through that fear. We have to choose to have that courage even though we don’t know how it’s gonna turn out. And I always, you know, ask my clients to have the courage because it is scary to try something new. You know, even if it is something that we think might work to help us heal the pain that we’re experiencing. And I noticed like after a few sessions. It’s probably halfway through. All of a sudden, I see on people’s faces when I’m working with them online. They just look more peaceful. It’s amazing. It happens every single time because they’re
Victoria Volk: so great.
Dawn Jackson: They’re so scared because they don’t know what it’s going to involve. They don’t know what’s going to come up. And the work is not easy and I always tell people that but I wouldn’t ask you to do something I never did. So I love that reminder that we have to continue even when we have fear to step through that and move forward. Take the steps that we need to take, have the courage so that we can feel better.
Victoria Volk: I often have to remind myself like I don’t grow in my comfort zone.
Dawn Jackson: That is so true.
Victoria Volk: Step out of my comfort zone. You know, speaking in front of people, so much fear. Right? Like, there’s so much fear speaking in front of people. Like, am I gonna forget what I’m gonna say? I’m gonna stumble over my words. Am I gonna embarrass myself? Like, all these things. Right? But you just you don’t grow, you don’t get better, you don’t it’s not practice make makes perfect. It’s practice helps you grow. And It does. And you have to practice that courage. Mhmm.
Dawn Jackson: Sorry to get a trip. I am. Yeah. We’re leaving happy to be nice.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Because here’s the thing. You know, we we raise our kids for eighteen years. Right? We hope that we’ve done our job and they leave at eighteen and they start to go on their own adventures and finding themselves and all of this and that and To be asked, I just wanna say this, to be asked by your twenty six year old son. I have a nineteen year old son. But to be asked by your twenty six year old son, mom, Do you want to take this backpacking trip with me for five days? He’s asking you, do you want to spend time with me for five days? Mhmm. This I wanna spend time with you for five days. That’s what I hear. And I just wanna cry for joy with you. I just wanna cry with joy for you because I would do it just because of that.
Dawn Jackson: Oh, and even if I
Victoria Volk: had zero trading, like, just sign me up. If my son asked me, I would be, like, heck, yes. You might have to pick me up a few times, but heck, yes.
Dawn Jackson: Right. And that’s why I do it because for me, like, we since he was a little boy, I was hiking with him. You know, I used to live in about an hour from the Columbia Gorge in Oregon, so we had beautiful waterfalls and hiking trails and I took him hiking all the time. I have tons of pictures, you know. He would be like, how how much farther? And I so I’d have to have all these tree bags. To keep him occupied and he talked the whole time. It was so funny. And so then he grew up and has a love for the wilderness and it he likes to be out as far as he possibly can where there’s nobody. Right? And it’s a connection that we have. So when I get asked to do something like that, you’re exactly right. I’m doing it because I wanna spend time with him. Yeah. It’s such a great opportunity
Victoria Volk: because we aren’t promised tomorrow.
Dawn Jackson: No. We aren’t.
Victoria Volk: And I
Dawn Jackson: mean, the last few years, you know, COVID and everything. I think most of us realize that. And that’s another reason why I left my job that I really wasn’t happy at because I wanted to help people in a different way. And I wanted to have the time with the people I love to be able to, you know, do the things I wanted to do and, you know, not wait until retirement because I have lost multiple friends. They retired. And then within a few months, they were no longer with us. And so I just decided it’s time to live life now, not in ten years from now.
Victoria Volk: It’s a great segue. So let’s talk more about that because you were a nurse for thirty years. Right? Thirty years. Yes. What was the catalyst for that decision. Like, what made you just hit the word go?
Dawn Jackson: To the
Victoria Volk: safe health. Yeah.
Dawn Jackson: To the safe nursing? Yeah. So I used to live in Portland, Oregon, and that’s where most of my nursing was. And the last few years of living there, I just I felt miserable. I mean, I made really good money so I could do most of the things I wanted to do. But there was something missing. Like, once I began my healing journey after my divorce, I realized that there was so much like healing that most people needed that wasn’t physical. And what I saw was that the emotional pain was causing physical pain. In my patients. And there’s a lack of mental health resources really available to people. It’s like, well, we can send you to a therapist, but not everybody wants a therapist. A lot of people want other modalities and insurance doesn’t pay for it. And so I became more and more frustrated because I just didn’t feel like I was making a difference I wanted to make. So I thought it was the actual job. So when I moved a few hours away, I had a different nursing job. And what I noticed was I didn’t feel any better because I was still doing the same thing. I was still telling people we’re gonna put you on a new medication. And I wasn’t helping them address all the emotional stuff, right, that they’d experienced during their whole life. And it’s time I was working with veterans. So veterans are really, you know, specific population, and they’ve gone through so many things that anybody who’s not a veteran really doesn’t understand. There’s a lot of pain. Yeah. There’s a lot of emotions there’s a lot of experiences that they don’t share with anybody except for their fellow veterans and sometimes they don’t even do that. So COVID hit And we were short staffed even more. People were quitting left and right. And we were asked to do more with less. And I was noticing that I kept getting sick I just emotionally wasn’t in a good place. I was never sleeping. And my intuition, because I use it quite a bit, was telling me if you don’t leave, then you’re gonna get sick, like, really sick. And that’s gonna be the end of, you know, being able to do the job that you’re doing. And so I just sat with it and sat with it and, you know, the universe kept giving me these, like, signs. Like, you need to do this, you need to leave. You need to do something different. You need to follow your passion. And so finally, I just had it. And it was really hard to get to that spot, especially because I was raised that you have the good job, you have the good benefits, you know, and you’re super responsible. And so for me to leave, what I was doing, it felt super scary. But it just got to the point where it was too hard to not leave. And so the day I turned in my resignation, I can’t even tell you how different I felt. Like my life felt completely changed. I felt a weight lift off of my shoulders. I felt probably physically better than I had in a long time. You know, and of course, they said to me, well, how about we let you go part time? And I said, you know, I’ve asked for the last year and a half to go part time. And you’ve denied it. So no. Well, can you stay for a few more weeks? And I said, no. And I said, well, why not? I said because I’m going back back in with my son, well, can’t you put that off? And I said, no. So for me, it was like too little, too late. Like, it was time for me to take care of me. I’ve spent my life taking care of other people. You know, nurses, moms, women were caregivers. And so for me to choose me was difficult and yet it was the best choice I’ve ever made in my life.
Victoria Volk: What did you go to after you signed put in your resignation?
Dawn Jackson: So then I spent three months not doing anything except for taking care of me, and I would sleep till like ten or eleven, which I can’t do that now. I always wake up at, like, seven thirty just my body does, but I was so tired. That’s how exhausted I was. Emotionally, depleted, physically depleted. I felt like my soul had just dried up. So that’s what I did for the first three months. I went back back in with my son. To cure me. And then at the end of the year, I started figuring out what I was gonna do. So I decided to get my advanced brief recovery method certification. So that I could do the work online. And then I started planning some retreats, so I do women’s retreats as well. And I finished writing my first book. So it’s yeah. It’s my life has just turned around in so many ways. I’m I feel so full of joy now every single day. Versus it used to be just drudgery going to work because I didn’t feel like I was making the difference that I wanted to make.
Victoria Volk: I love that for you. And I what I wanna share with listeners is that, on par with what you said, my life changed when and I it sounds like for you too, like, grief recovery was the catalyst for you coming into yourself for you to become empowered in your decisions and your path forward, I feel the same way, like, everything that I’ve accomplished, like, you know, certifications and different trainings and working with grievers and energy healing work. Like, all of it was after I went through grief recovery Mhmm. Than the past going on six years. So it’s a catalyst for change. It’s not just to feel better for a short period of time, like we often resort to alcohol or drugs or relationships or shopping or gambling, you know, these herbs that you and I know about short term energy relieving behaviors. Speaking of which, What were your nerves while you were going through? What sounds like to me was burnout in your nursing career? How were you coping with that?
Dawn Jackson: I would say, well, during COVID, I mean, I think a lot of people can relate to this, like, you know, we thought the world was ending in an we didn’t know what to expect. So, you know, it was, oh, have that glass of wine every night. You know, and after a while, I was like, okay, this isn’t good. You know, I because I don’t typically drink like that, but that was one of them. And you know, it was coming on from work and having that glass of wine, keeping busy, I would say, you know, social media, like scrolling the news feed, Those were my big ones. I’m trying to think back. Yeah. Those were I would say my two big ones. I was, you know, I was so tired from work that I felt like I didn’t have time to do any of the things that I really wanted to do as just exhausted. So, like, you know, where I had moved a few years ago to some place that’s beautiful. It’s like in the mountains. We have so many trees and rivers and lakes. I’d love to hike. I wasn’t doing any of that. I wasn’t exercising. So probably food a little bit too. Because when I quit my job, I weighed, like, probably ten pounds more than I’ve ever weighed, and I’m a pretty short person. So you know, for me to gain that much weight, typically, I don’t really gain weight easily so that I knew that yeah, I wasn’t in a good space emotionally.
Victoria Volk: And it sounds like I think a lot of people go through this especially after you’ve been doing something for so many years, you know, it’s like a depression. Right? It’s you’re you’re depressed.
Dawn Jackson: Yeah. One of the things that I’ll share this, the grief recovery method helped me with was, you know, although I left my job And I was happy about that. There was a really painful few weeks months because all those coworkers have become my friends. You know, they were my tribe. They got me through COVID and all the difficulties that came along with that. I mean, every time we walked into work, there was oh, we have to change this protocol, we have to change that, and so to leave all those people and knowing I was leaving them, even shorter staffed was really difficult for me, but the grief recovery method helped me with being able to make sure that I was complete in all those relationships. So Like, I went around and talked to all the people I was close to before I even put my notice in. And I told them why I was leaving. I told them what they meant to me. How important our relationship had been. How grateful I was for them. And you know not one person said to me, I can’t believe you’re quitting. Everybody said, I’m so glad that you’re taking care of yourself. Because I told them why I was doing it. It wasn’t that I just really dislike this job. It was that I needed to take care of me. That was most important to me at this time, that time. And so it helped me leave that job and not feel like there were all these loose ends because I was able to communicate with all the people that were important to me.
Victoria Volk: What I also hear is that your why for quitting was much stronger than your fear.
Dawn Jackson: Yes. It was. Because I knew that I was getting the point I didn’t have a choice because the universe kept giving me these signs. And the fact that I kept getting sick and I couldn’t sleep and, you know, I just did not feel like I was surviving were big enough for me. It was what I noticed now too is, you know, I used to just get these really nice paychecks And while they meant something to me, not like my pay today, you know, when I’m working with a client, you know, a hundred dollars means more than thousand dollars she used to because I feel like I’m really making a difference. I noticed the transformation in people’s lives.
Victoria Volk: So what do you say to people who just doubtful that grief recovery can help them?
Dawn Jackson: So, you know, we always talk about what they’ve tried and, you know, I always tell them my stories. About how it’s helped me move forward. I’ve talked to them about their reservations. You know, oftentimes it’s money. But I also thank a lot of it’s fear. Like, they don’t know that this is gonna work. And so, you know, I always remind them that they deserve to live a better life than what they’re experiencing at the time. And that unless they, you know, take a step to move forward and to heal their heart, they’re gonna stay stuck in that same place. But I’m also very aware of, like we talked about earlier, that someone also needs to be ready. They need to choose to step into something. And so, you know, I give them a lot of space. You know, and I have people tell me, oh, I’ve been following you for like a year. And I’ve been reading your stuff and I keep clicking on your calendar link for a discovery call. And then they finally get to the point. They finally have that courage to do it because I want them to have that courage versus feeling like they’re being pushed into something. Because I as you know, we want them to show up fully. Because that’s the only way they’re gonna really heal.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You can’t you can’t half ass this.
Dawn Jackson: No. You cannot.
Victoria Volk: You can’t. You can’t.
Dawn Jackson: No. It doesn’t work.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Because, you know, as you know, it’s like you get into, like, weeks four to five, you know, it you know, they even tell us, like, you know, especially if you do in person work or groups or whatever, hey, you know, you warn them, like, you’re gonna wanna not put your shoes on and walk out that door. But, you know, that’s the time you need to. Dig within yourself and Mhmm. Find that courage to push through.
Dawn Jackson: Yeah. It’s hard. I mean, In some ways, I’m grateful I did it in the certification training, right, versus, like, seven weeks. Same? Because I wasn’t going to be leaving the certification training because that’s dummy. If I start something, I’m going to finish it. Right? So it, like, forced me to continue going through the process, which was really painful at the time, but you know, I wish I could I wish that there was some way to relay to people, like, yes, going through the process can be difficult, but when you get to the other end, the feeling is amazing. Like, not always right away, but you start noticing how your life is changing, how you feel differently. And there’s such a freedom to that.
Victoria Volk: I would like us to share our own personal experiences of going through this method, which is possible in the two day workshop, which Yes. Neither of us are trained to do. Correct? Correct. Yep. So we went through the certification, and that’s a four day process. So, basically, we’re kinda going through the two day workshop that’s available only from certain trainers through Discovery Institute. But can you please share your personal experience of going through the training and the program itself?
Dawn Jackson: So like I said, when I first ended up at the training, I didn’t think I had any grief. And within about an hour, I realized that there were a lot of things in my life that were grieving events. So first, it was difficult to look at that. I mean, it wasn’t that I never thought about those things I did, but when you think about them all together, one day, you know, it’s like, wow, I’ve been through a lot. And I think most people realize that. We’re not born and then we don’t have any of these grieving experiences. We all have them. There’s, you know, people always think about death. There’s deaths. There’s the time that you went to school when, you know, maybe your best friend was mean to you. They bullied you. You know, even those little things, those stick with us because they create some of our belief systems we have about ourselves, you know, even happy things like having a child that can be a grievance experience as well because it completely changes our life. Like, you know, you’re happy. You’re having a child, but then you go home and you’re like, oh my gosh. I can’t even go to the store, right, by myself. So all those things, you know, came up for me you know, the experiences in my life, the relationships that I had that were less than what I’d hoped for, and all the hopes dreams and expectations that I’d had that didn’t happen in my life. So it was overwhelming at first, but I think as the days went by, I just realized I am in the right place to heel, and this is such a supportive environment. And I’m gonna come out on the other side. Like, I started to realize Like, this is going to change my life. This is amazing work. So that was kind of my experience. And then, you know, for a while after I became certified it didn’t really do anything with it except I did do my own work. I mean, I think, to this day, I’ve done, like, twenty different relationships in my life. And I notice every time I do one, like, how significantly my life changes and I notice it in my relationships too because we all know relationships aren’t easy. Any type of relationship, they can be a struggle at times. But doing this work keeps me in a space where I can continue to learn and to grow and work together with someone versus wanting to just walk away.
Victoria Volk: I physically got sick. At my at my training. Like so I went down I flew down to Texas for mine. Okay. So it’s like, I think of it as the version of me that was on that plane going down there was not the same me that came back. And like, I’ve it was, you know, thirty plus years of grief that I had none you know, had stuff down and pushed down and so much anger and resentment and all this stuff was coming up. But I physically, like, both ends And and I came to that class. I was bound and determined and good for me that I had actually read the book before even going. Because yeah. I not because I’d actually tried to DIY this before I went to that certification, like,
Dawn Jackson: yeah.
Victoria Volk: I can learn this. I don’t need somebody to walk me through this. I don’t yeah. I’m gonna I’m gonna help people. Like, that’s why I’m doing this. I wanna help other people. Like, I don’t need this. Other people need this. And so I was reading the book and then I’m like, oh, yeah, I think I need this. And had another loss, actually, that came about at the same time. And I was like, yeah, I definitely need this. Mhmm. And Yeah. I was so sick. I Susan was my trainer and she ended up going and getting me drama mean and I was laying on the floor listening to her instruction. And yeah. And it turned out to be training experience for her that she she’ll probably never ever have again just the dynamics of the group, which was Mhmm. Really crazy. But, yeah, it was a very is very life changing, just that experience for me. Sandy Derby was there too at the at the same time, and she
Dawn Jackson: was Right.
Victoria Volk: Yeah, she was my ended up being my partner and yeah. It it was an amazing experience for me, but tell you what, if stuff was per it was like the purge before the purge, you know. And so it can I mean, our bodies speak to us?
Dawn Jackson: They do. I hear that story a lot that people get sick. It was, yeah, we’re trying to get rid of this stuff, but there’s part of us that’s, like, Is it safe to get rid of it? No.
Victoria Volk: And a different mechanism for me? Yeah. Can I tell you what? I couldn’t just hop on the plane and go I could have gone back home. But like you said, had that, I think, been in a group setting or having, you know, had to go somewhere? I you know, I can see where people would have a hard time sticking it out, but that is where the courage needs to come in and Mhmm. And our responsibility too as the as the specialist and the facilitator to hold people’s hands and meet them where they’re at and continue to show them the improvement that is happening. Because I think it’s hard to see it when you’re in it too. Right? Like, oh, I’m a mess. I’m not progressing. Like, this isn’t helping, but that Right. That is the work. Exactly. I had a client even say to me. She’s like, you know, people always say, you gotta do the work. You gotta do the work. And after she went through this program with me, she was like, I understand now. Mhmm. What the work is. This program is the work. Mhmm. That’s what I just
Dawn Jackson: yeah. I love how the certification, like, you you can become certified unless you do your own work because you’re right. Like, so many people think, well, this is for somebody else. I mean, I get people to reach out to me all the time and say, oh, my sister really needs this. My mom really needs this.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Dawn Jackson: And, you know, it’s really hard because everybody needs this. We’re all griefers. We talk about that all the time. Right? Because we’ve all had grieving events in our life. It’s like, we can’t even sit down and watch a movie or show at night without seeing all the grief. Because once you know something, you can’t unknow it. And I feel sad that there just aren’t more programs like this that can really help people move forward, not temporarily, but permanently. You know? And I love this tool because you can use it for anything that’s happened in the past and for anything that happens in the future.
Victoria Volk: I’ve applied this to my relationship with money alcohol, my inner child. Mhmm. You can apply it to your relationship with food. Like, I’ve applied this in a lot of different ways and aspects of my life, and it’s remarkable what comes up.
Dawn Jackson: Oh, yeah. It definitely is. I always know when there’s some work I need to do, when some just keeps coming up. It keeps coming up. It keeps coming up. It’s like the universe knocking at my door. Hello. When you’re gonna do the work, But we know we always have those tools, and that’s why I love giving people. It’s like, you know, I’m gonna work with you for, you know, seven weeks, but then you’re gonna have this tool for the rest of your life and you don’t have to come back to me unless you want to, which, you know, from one of my personal stories is I went to a therapist for years after my divorce. And while there were things that helped me with, I don’t feel like I ever got any type of the resolution that I’ve gotten with the grief recovery method. It was like I just kept going back and talking about the same thing over and over and over again. So I love that this program this tool, this method doesn’t keep people stuck, you know, continuing to talk about the same thing, like, we’re helping you. Get to the point where you don’t have to keep talking about all the negative things because we’re gonna help you feel better. These tools are gonna help you feel better.
Victoria Volk: And it’s like algebra. You know, every lesson builds upon it self, the building on the week before, and towards the end, I think it, you know, starts to click. I mean
Dawn Jackson: Alright. Great.
Victoria Volk: But Hey, algebra. But might not be the best analogy, but it’s yeah. That’s I think that’s how this is so brilliantly made is that it you’re always taking just a little bit more of a step forward for the process. I always ask that option. Yeah.
Dawn Jackson: I would agree.
Victoria Volk: And we’re empowering people. And I would ask I always ask people like, What has it been costing you to not feel empowered? Yes. What is that costing you?
Dawn Jackson: Yeah, there is so much to helping people feel empowered. Because when people don’t feel empowered, they stay small. They seem to call us. Yeah. Exactly.
And they don’t put themselves out there, the gifts that they came here to share with others. So, you know, I always think because I’m all about grief and joy and how those go together, for me is, like, If we can heal the grief, we get to the joy. That’s exactly what happened in my life. I wouldn’t really find that joy because I was so stuck in all the things that had happened that broke my heart. And once I was able to work through that using the grid recovery method, now I’m able to find the joy every day. I mean, every day might not be wonderful but I can always find something that’s wonderful in every day.
Victoria Volk: Well, and then you can recognize what it is that, you know, if you start going down this slope of, oh, I’m starting to, you know, be a workaholic or Mhmm. I’m starting to want to drink that glass of wine at the end of the day, like
Dawn Jackson: Right.
Victoria Volk: We’re able to recognize that within ourselves. And like you said, you can’t unknow it. So You see it in other people.
Dawn Jackson: Oh, yes.
Victoria Volk: You see how people are coping with life. And, yeah, it’s grief is all around us.
Dawn Jackson: Hold ends. Yeah. I’m I’m very grateful for the grief recovery lesson. What it allows us to do how it allows us to move forward in life,
Victoria Volk: and it allowed you to write your your book
Dawn Jackson: Yeah. No. I wrote two
Victoria Volk: notes here.
Dawn Jackson: Your book. Yeah. Which I don’t have that. So I’d wanted to write a book for years. I have a friend that’s a publisher. She helps people self publish books. And she coaches authors, writers. And I’d done a few things for her, some projects but I really wanted to do my own book. And so when I started thinking about leaving my nursing career, I started writing a book, and it’s called Journey to Peace and Healing. So I finished it after I left my job and then got it published, but it’s really about how to, you know, return to that state of peacefulness of joy of love So I talk about grief. There’s a whole chapter in there about grief. It’s really reflective journal, so I have each chapter is kind of structured. There’s writing, and then there’s reflective questions in journaling space. Because I really wanted it to be something that an individual picked up and didn’t just read like they looked at their own life. They chose to take steps. To move forward instead of staying stuck where they are. So I was pretty excited when that was published because that was one of my lifelong dreams as well.
Victoria Volk: When I self published mine in twenty seventeen, it’s So when you hold the book in your hands, there’s just no feeling like it is there.
Dawn Jackson: No. There isn’t. It’s pretty awesome. We we got.
Victoria Volk: So what does your grief taught you?
Dawn Jackson: I would say my grief has taught me my strength. You know, my ability to overcome to change my life, to be more authentic. Stop me that there’s more than just surviving and that I can thrive, that I can have the life that I truly desire to live
Victoria Volk: and that you can do hard things. Yes. Like a five day hike with your son. Right.
Dawn Jackson: Yeah. That’s true. And, you know, really that I wanna make the most of each moment. I think for years, I just lived day to day, you know, through the drudgery, I didn’t really look forward to much. I didn’t see how important it was to make the most of each day, and I feel differently now. You know, I try to make the time for the people I love even if it means I’m not working today. I try to tell people what they mean to me because like you said, life is short. So, yeah, it’s taught me a lot. I’m very grateful. I wouldn’t be who I am today without all that different events that I’ve been through that caused me grief.
But now I can see the gifts and the grief.
Victoria Volk: You know, I’ve been doing this podcast for I’ll be starting my fifth year here at the end of the month, and all the conversations that is the theme is that there’s gifts in it. And when you’re in it and you’re listening to you know, podcast episodes like this or people are sharing their stories and you might say, oh, well, I didn’t go through something that hard. Like, my grief isn’t that difficult or I didn’t experience it that I didn’t have it that bad or, you know, if we kind of place our grief on a chart, you know, against other people’s grief and there is no hierarchy because grief has felt that a hundred percent regardless of who you are and what you’ve been through and you can’t say that one thing is traumatic for this person and it’s not for another. It’s it’s so individual and that’s what I think I love about What I think people might see grief recovery as is like this cookie cutter approach. Right?
And it it’s not it’s couldn’t be more it couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s because grief is so individual, Yes. And this method honors the individuality of your grief. And that’s what I love about it. It yeah, it’s just it allows your individual grief to be expressed.
Dawn Jackson: Right. And it doesn’t compare. I always Yeah. Tell my clients, you know, even if you and I shared the same parent, like say we lost our mom, I don’t know how you feel and you don’t know how I feel because we had different relationships with her and we’re different individuals. We’re unique. Our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, are completely unique from one another. So I was trying to remind people that because, yeah, it really bothers me when people compare because they might have you know, had one loss, but they, you know, we’re talking to someone who they feel has had a more significant loss. But you’re right. Everybody experiences their grief at a hundred percent. So it’s really important to recognize that
Victoria Volk: And even too, like like you to your point growing up in the same home and having, you know, the the relationships are individual. And so it’s I’ve seen so many times in the work that I’ve done with clients, but even people who come on my podcast, it’s like, you know, there’s so much turmoil within the families because there’s this expectation of, well, I feel this way, you should feel this way, Right. That’s the same we have the same relate we have the same parent or we have the same father or whatever it was, but the lived experience is so different, you know. And that’s Yes. Because the relationship is different. You know, you can be closer to one parent than the other parent and the in fighting that can happen because we just don’t accept that all relationships are unique in individual. Mhmm. And that’s what this program helps each of us honor within our own lives. And that’s what I love about it.
Dawn Jackson: Oh, I would totally agree. I always when I’m working with my clients, you know, not only do I take them through the method, but I also try and provide some education as the program does about how we approach people who are grieving. You know, if we’re on the other end of that. And you know, everybody says, wow, I’ve said some of those unhelpful things. Like, I know how you feel. I’ve lost my father. And so I always remind people, be gentle with yourself. But one of the best things you can say to someone is, I can’t imagine how you feel. Because grievers often don’t feel heard. They often feel like we’re giving them advice or we’re comparing our losses or we’re judging And so I just think it’s such a great reminder that we never know how somebody else feels. And by saying that, it gives them an opening to express what’s going on in their heart without feeling shut down.
Victoria Volk: Is there anything else that you would like to share that you don’t feel like you got to?
Dawn Jackson: No, I feel like this has been a great conversation with you. I really appreciate spending this time together.
Victoria Volk: Likewise. And where can people find you if they would like to connect with you?
Dawn Jackson: So my website is don michelle jackson dot com. And then I’m also on Facebook, I’m on LinkedIn. But, yeah, domichel jackson dot com is my URL.
Victoria Volk: One l, by the way? Yes. One l.
Dawn Jackson: Thank you.
Victoria Volk: I figured that out. Really quick. Yeah. And I’ll put the link for that in the show notes. But when do you have another retreat coming up?
Dawn Jackson: It looks like October. I’m working on that right now. Securing a house to do it in in central Oregon. So they’re usually fairly small, like, up to ten people, ten women because, you know, we lodged together. We spent a few days together. It creates great connection and healing. I used to go to retreats myself, and I just they were so important for me in my process and to have that connection with other women and working on ourselves and empowering each other, so that’s why I offer these retreats to other women.
Victoria Volk: And do you bring other modalities into the retreats, or can you share a little how you like, what is offered during these trades?
Dawn Jackson: So we usually look at things like our belief systems. I always talk about grief. Although they don’t offer the method because that’s something that has to be done over, you know, several weeks. But I do talk about grief. And then, you know, we kind of look at where people are stuck, where they’re stuck now and where they want to be in their life and help them create a vision for the future. I usually bring in an another person to help me because it’s really fun to have two different perspectives on things. So I changed that up a little bit each time. So I haven’t quite planned it, but it’s gonna be announced hopefully in the next couple weeks.
Victoria Volk: And you can find all that information on your website as well. Correct?
Dawn Jackson: Correct.
Victoria Volk: Yep. And your book, also the link to your book is on your website.
Dawn Jackson: Both of my books are on my website, and they’re also on Amazon. The paper back and the digital version.
Victoria Volk: And on social, you are in social media as well. Yep. Well, thank you so much for sharing in your grief recovery experience with me and my listeners. I always love having other specialists on that you know, we can kind of talk shop a little bit, but also share personal experiences because I have seen this method not only work through the lives of my clients. But when I have people that come on my podcast who have also experienced it, it it’s like you just have to experience it. It’s kind of hard to describe and explain in a nutshell even. It’s I guess in in one word, it’d be transformative.
Dawn Jackson: I would agree.
Victoria Volk: You know, that would that would be the easiest way, I guess, to explain it, but it’s such a it’s such a big word too. Right? Like, can it really be transformative? Well, yes, it can. Yes.
When you do that
Dawn Jackson: work, Yeah. And the more work you do, the more transformative it is.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. It’s you know, I mean, when you continue to, like I said, you know, applied it to my relationship with money and alcohol and various aspects of my life. It’s it’s amazing what you can uncover and discover about yourself. So
Dawn Jackson: yeah. Well, thank you for having me and really enjoyed this time together, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: My pleasure, and thank you for being my guest. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this momentous 200th episode of Grieving Voices, I pause to honor the journey thus far. From heartfelt stories of loss to triumphs in resilience, this podcast has become a beacon for those navigating grief’s complex landscape. Join me as I delve into reflections on societal norms around grief, personal growth through storytelling, and gratitude for the community that has been built.
Highlights from today’s solo episode include:
- A reflection on how Grieving Voices evolved into a top global podcast.
- The importance of sharing episodes with others who may find solace in them.
- An exploration of human design and how it influenced the creation and continuation of the podcast.
- Insights into why consistency matters when creating content that serves a greater purpose.
- Lessons learned from interviewing diverse guests with powerful transformation stories.
I also look ahead at what’s coming in season 5:
- Anticipated deep dives into energy healing as support for grievers.
- Introducing listeners to new resources and modalities perhaps unfamiliar to many.
Let us continue changing how society perceives grief—one share, one story at a time. Because here at Grieving Voices—it’s not about speaking louder but speaking truer—and always alongside each other.
RESOURCES:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Grieving Voices Podcast: A Beacon of Hope at 200 Episodes
Two hundred episodes in, and the resonant waves of healing and understanding continue to ripple out from the heart of the Grieving Voices podcast. As we celebrate this impressive milestone with a special solo episode by its founder, it’s time to reflect on how this platform has evolved into a global sanctuary for those touched by grief.
A Journey Through Empathy and Community
Grieving Voices began as a whisper of comfort—a space where friends, clients, and eventually strangers shared their intimate stories of loss. It was an endeavor rooted in compassion that grew organically into one of the top 5% podcasts worldwide, echoing across borders with listenership in 89 countries. This incredible growth is not just about numbers; it’s about connections forged through shared experiences.
The host’s heartfelt thanks extend to every listener and guest who has contributed their voice or lent an ear—each one integral to building what can only be described as a refuge for grieving souls. By shattering silence around grief, each episode chips away at societal taboos that often leave individuals isolated in their sorrow.
Consistency Fueled by Purpose
Despite moments when pausing seemed like an option, our steadfast host continued marching forward driven by something greater than personal need—the collective need for understanding during life’s most challenging times. The pursuit of perfection may weave itself into production quality but make no mistake; it is matched equally by authenticity and care woven into every narrative shared.
Notable conversations have graced our airwaves featuring luminaries like Marty Cooper, Chris Kerr, Christine Carlson, and Chris Carr—all leaving indelible marks on our hearts with tales both harrowing and hopeful.
Manifesting Healing Through Storytelling
At its core lies human design principles—specifically manifestor type energy—that surge through the podcast’s veins propelling creative ventures forward without external validation but rather aligned with divine inspiration. This alignment speaks volumes about why Grieving Voices came into existence—it was more than just an idea; it was almost predestined to become what many now rely on for solace amid pain.
Our host possesses a particular affinity for underdog narratives—the kind where resilience blossoms from brokenness—and these stories resonate profoundly within our community. Every story told becomes part healing ritual for both speaker and listener alike—an emotional salve nurturing recovery while bolstering inner strength.
Evolving With Intentionality Into Season Five
As we look toward season five there’s anticipation brewing around exploring new facets such as energy healing among other modalities designed to support those walking through grief’s shadowy valleys. Listeners are encouraged to contribute anonymously suggesting topics or questions they yearn to explore further—making this journey ours collectively rather than individually dictated.
In closing out this commemorative episode comes recognition—not just self-acknowledgment—but genuine appreciation towards each person who has allowed Grieving Voices into their lives changing dialogues surrounding loss along the way. Our call remains clear: share your stories so others might find rays of hope amidst despair.
With two hundred episodes behind us yet countless more ahead filled with potential insights—we stand united ready to embrace whatever paths unfold before us knowing full well that together we change not only conversations but lives too.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome to the 200th episode of Grieving Voices Podcast exploring the depths of grief, healing, and resilience. I’m incredibly grateful to have you here joining me on this milestone occasion. As I sit here today, I’m filled with awe and gratitude. Over the past, one hundred and ninety-nine episodes, we have discussed raw and tender stories of loss, shared moments of vulnerability, and celebrated the embraceable spirit of those who have walked the path of grief. This podcast has become a sanctuary, a sacred space where we honor the complexity of grief and the unwavering strength of the human heart. Today as we gather for this special solo episode, I invite you to join me in a moment of reflection. Let us revisit the key points and takeaways that have shaped our understanding of grief and opened our hearts to the power of healing. Together, We have challenged societal norms, shattered the silence surrounding grief, and created a community that embraces compassion and understanding. As I embark on my fifth season and share this two-hundredth episode, I want to express my deepest gratitude to each and every one of you. Your support, the vulnerability of my guests, and your unwavering presence have fueled this podcast evolution and made it the beacon of hope it is today. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community and allowing me the opportunity and privilege to be in your ear holes these past four years. Thanks to you, Grieving Voices is in the top five percent of all podcasts globally. And has been downloaded in eighty-nine countries and counting. Sharing the episodes that touch your heart or that you know would be helpful to a hurting heart is what feels the podcast growth. Being helpful, offering support, and sharing resources is how we all help each other journey through life. So my dear friends let us embark on this 200th episode with open hearts, open minds, and a shared commitment to honor the unity in our grief. Together, we will continue to pave the way for a world that embraces the beauty and transformative power of grief. Welcome to Grieving Voices Episode two hundred. From starting out at zero, enlisting in friends and clients to be my first guests, to being where I am now, where I don’t have to seek out guests or sponsors, I just have to share with you that I also had zero thoughts about how long I’d be at this. It was just something I knew I wanted and needed to do. Take the title, Grieving Voices. It’s kind of brilliant, right? And yet I can’t take credit for it. It popped into my head like a lightning bolt, but it was also a creative urge long before it was a podcast title. If you’re unfamiliar with human design or specifically the manifestor type in human design, which I am, manifestors have a unique energy type that works in bursts, followed by rest. Learning about the creative urges of a manifestors, the best way I can describe how this podcast and many things I’ve created came to be. But where do a manifestor’s creative verges come from? Well, we are also the only energy type that has a direct connection to source that doesn’t need anyone else to take action. Manufacturers are the initiators, the creators, inventors, the trailblazers. The more aligned and in integrity, I have become with who I am in mind, body, and spirit the more in tune I’ve become with my personal energy, and the more connected I am to the creative urges gifted to me from my divine source that I choose to call God. And I believe we all can tap into that source, whether it’s more ethanol or spiritual or however you choose to define it. It doesn’t matter. But you just have to clear the mud and the muck that’s creating static and not giving a clear signal. The mud in the muck being the emotional baggage that you’ve been lugging around for months, years, or even decades. Grief has been the focus of my podcast from day one and it will continue to be. If you haven’t noticed, I love an underdog story. I love to be a witness to the stories of transformation. And I love to see how the broken hearted from all walks of life manage to pick up the pieces of their broken hearts, hodge, podge those pieces together, and move forward creating a new life and filling it with new stories and experiences. But more importantly, in hindsight, seeing how the heartbreaking things they’ve endured We’re also the catalyst for their evolution and the source of inspiration to truly live. Not just survive, but thrive. I see an aspect of myself and every story I hear. And with every story I touch an aspect of my grief, I may haven’t touched in a while. The stories become a healing balm to my soul just as much as I hope they become a healing balm to yours. I’ve also learned so much about myself since starting this podcast. For one, although I’ve contemplated taking a break or hiatus, several times over the years, I never did. Why? I’m not the best about consistency in many areas of my life. But when it comes to this podcast, I haven’t allowed myself to falter, and I suppose a part of that is because it’s bigger than me. It’s not about me. I played that scenario out to the end, and the disappointment I felt with myself outweighed the momentary desire for a break in the moment. I also really enjoy meeting and talking with new faces one to one from around the world. And junior high had contemplated being a journalist and war correspondent, like Walter Cronkite, because he got to ask the tough questions and travel. I guess travel aside, craving voices is the next best thing. The other thing I’ve learned about myself through the years of doing this podcast is my perfectionist tendencies, which often drive even me insane, have served me well, and I wouldn’t change it. I brought in some amazing well known guests like the inventor of the cell phone, Marty Cooper. End of life research author and guest on the Netflix docu series surviving death, Chris Kerr. New York Times best selling author and co author, Christine Carlson. And cancer thriver, New York Times best selling author and one of Oprah’s Super Bowl one hundred, Chris Carr. And the countless others who have turned their pain into triumph and share their gifts and grief wisdom with the world. I’ve put a lot of time and effort into making this podcast a safe and welcoming experience and presenting and promoting the guests and their contributions professionally and honorably. So on this two hundredth episode, I want to close by saying, from the deepest parts of my heart, Thank you for being a witness to my guest stories too. You are an integral part of my mission to change the conversation around grief. It takes a heart with ears to listen and storytellers to have the courage to share their deeply personal stories of grief, trauma, and loss. So thank you for being a heart with ears on the other end of my mic. I hope you feel inspired to share your story with another heart with ears so that as a society, We can one day talk about grief like we talk about the weather. Thank you for being here. I hope you stick around More grieving voices and solo episodes will come your way in season five. In particular, I’ll be digging more into energy healing in its role in supporting creepers. And other resources and modalities you may have never heard of before. If there is a topic you’d love for me to talk about or if you have a question or you’d like answered on on the podcast. You can remain anonymous too by the way. Check out the show notes where at the top there’s an easy peasy link to send me a message. And until next time, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.