Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Podcast, Sibling Loss, Veteran |
Scott Deluzio | Seeing Red: A Gold Star Brother & Brothers in Arms
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Less than 1% of Americans serve in the U.S. military. That leaves 99% of Americans who will never understand the cost of serving their country, particularly during wartime.
Scott shares his path to emotional freedom from the scars of war after deploying to Afghanistan with his brother, Steven. Rather than Scott celebrating homecoming with his brother, he accompanied Steven, killed in action, in a casket draped with the American flag.
Although Scott was scheduled to return to Afghanistan two short weeks after his brother’s funeral, the mayor of Connecticut declared that he would not return to duty with his National Guard unit in Afghanistan because the family should have to endure the potential of another loss.
But there is so much more to Scott’s story. Because coming home after being in a war, doesn’t necessarily feel like you’re home. Scott put his grief to the side and picked up anger, and over the years, his grief ate away the core of his very being. He became someone he didn’t recognize. His drinking got out of control, along with his anger, and he realized he could no longer go it alone and sought support.
Like many grievers and veterans, Scott thought he was doing okay after a couple of years of therapy and stopped going. However, a life-threatening event with his spouse would occur, and he would later find his old patterns resurfacing. He sought support again and learned that growth and healing are ongoing processes.
Whether you’ve served in the military, know or love someone who is serving or has served, or not, please listen to Scott’s story. It may help bring a deeper understanding of the scars and costs of war – and America’s 1%.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
The real divide in the U.S. is that only one percent of us fight in war, and the rest don’t understand the true cost of conflict. – an op-ed piece by “60 Minutes” producer Henry Schuster, Operation Proper Exit
______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Scott deluzy. Oh, he is an Army veteran having served six years with the Army National Guard, including a deployment to Afghanistan in 2010. Scott’s brother Steven was also deployed to Afghanistan also in 2010. Unfortunately, Steven was killed in action on August 22 2010. After returning home, Scott struggled with coping with the stresses of combat the loss of his younger brother and adjusting back to civilian life. Thank you so much for being here, Scott.
Scott Deluzio 0:34
Thanks for having me. I’m really glad to be able to come on and share my story with you and your audience.
Victoria Volk 0:39
And it is a story that hasn’t been expressed on the podcast. I know I was on your podcast Dr. On a little while, a while back and not sure when that episode will go live for sure. I don’t remember anymore. But at the time of this recording, it doesn’t matter. But we have that in common where we both deployed, I was deployed in Iraq, but I have not had this type of loss represented on the podcast. So thank you for being open to sharing your story. We have a lot of acronyms, right in the military. It’s all acronyms. And one acronym that we also have in Grief Recovery is our stirpes. And it means short-term energy relieving behaviors. And you mentioned a STERB in your information that you shared with me and yours. It sounds like was alcohol, is that correct?
Scott Deluzio 1:32
Yeah, that’s, that’s correct. When I got back from Afghanistan, I was home with with my family and I couldn’t sleep to for anything I sleep was just eluding me, it was night after night, where I would just be laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, not able to fall asleep. And the pain of losing my brother was significant. And I found myself drinking more and more and more, you know, it started off just normal, like casual drinking, having a glass of wine with dinner or something like that. But then it became more and more after, you know, after dinner going going in later into the night. And I found that I was helping myself to fall asleep by basically drinking until I passed out. So it wasn’t really sleep, it was really just making myself pass out. Which obviously has the issue of you know, the next morning, I was hungover, I wasn’t the the friendliest, nicest person to be around. And, you know, I would, I would kind of get through the day just by drinking more and more coffee throughout the day just to keep myself going, you know, energy drinks, things like that. But then that that’s sort of affecting my sleep too, as I was drinking it later. And later in the day, it just became this vicious cycle. And, you know, I would use, like sleeping pills trying to help myself get to sleep and, you know, combining that with the alcohol that doesn’t isn’t exactly the healthiest option, either. And, you know, it was just, it was just one of those things where I was looking for that, that relief that basically numbing the pain getting getting rid of that, not not addressing it not facing it head on and dealing with it in a healthy way. And and that was that was causing a lot of problems caused problems with my physical health, my mental health, my relationships, my my job, I was going into work basically hung over, you know, on a regular basis, and it wasn’t exactly what you want to do. And when you’re, you’re working in a professional kind of corporate job, it’s not what you really want to do, you’re kind of looked at a little bit differently when you’re, you’re walking in still still kind of shaking off the cobwebs and everything. So, you know, it was it was just really hard for me to be able to deal with the stuff that I was going through. And it was it was hard. It was hard for me to get through all of that.
Victoria Volk 4:09
How old were your kids at the time.
Scott Deluzio 4:12
So I had a before I deployed my my first son was born. So he was nine or 10 months old at the time so young enough that he doesn’t remember this part of of life. I now have two other kids who fortunately, were not around during that time period either. And so, you know, they don’t they don’t remember that obviously either. So, you know, but I also wasn’t the best at either, you know, I would have and this was like when he when I got home he was about nine or 10 months but this obviously went on for a little while afterwards too. So you know he was a toddler he’s getting into trouble like all little kids do right and I would just have a short temper with Just about everything. And when he would do things that normal kids do, they spill their food off the their highchair, or they, you know, make a mess in the living room or whatever it is, you know that he was doing it, I just would would flip out and I’d started screaming and yelling, and, and it was that was just not who I was. That’s not the type of person who I was before I deployed. I was a pretty easygoing type of person I didn’t get I wasn’t too high strung, I didn’t get upset over little things like that. You know, sure. There’s, there’s inconveniences, but you just deal with them as you go along in life, right. And, but I was finding it harder and harder to deal with even these small, little inconveniences. And so I found myself just getting angry and frustrated, upset at all these little tiny things. And it was just about everything that I was getting mad at. And anything that that was even slightly inconvenient or off or whatever, I just would, I’d be flipping out about it. And, and I realized that’s not the kind of dad I wanted to be. That’s not the type of person I wanted it to be. For my son, for my wife, for the people who are around me that I cared about who cared about me, I didn’t want to be that kind of person, because then then you just end up pushing those people away. And so, so yeah, it was kind of a long answer to that question. You know, how old they were. But, but yeah, that was that was kind of that situation that I was going through?
Victoria Volk 6:34
When did that change for you? And did you notice that? How you are reacting to situations, then your children? Sort of that’s how they responded to to situations? Like did you how were their behavior, things with the kids then being reflected back to you?
Scott Deluzio 6:52
Yeah, that’s exactly what it was. I started noticing my my oldest son, I would, I used to do this thing, when I would get frustrated or angry, where I would grit my teeth. And I started noticing him doing that anytime he would be getting upset at at small little things, you know, things that weren’t going his way, you know, it’s it’s time for a nap. And he didn’t want to go take a nap. And he grit his teeth and he’d get angry. And it was like looking in the mirror. It was a it was an ugly mirror, I didn’t want to look in that mirror, you know, I wanted to I wanted to have a happy, healthy child not not one who was getting angry at these little things the way I was doing. And really, for me, the moment where the light bulb went off and I realized Something is definitely wrong is this time when my my dog that we had at the time, she’s since passed away. But back then she she had gotten sick. I don’t know if she ate something that didn’t agree with her or whatever. And she was walking in our bedroom. And she was right at the edge of our bedroom and in the master bathroom that we had which had nice tile floor and the bedroom which had a nice brand new white carpet. And she started to throw up and she’s standing right at the edge between the bathroom and in the doorway and to the to the bathroom. And she throws up right on the white carpet. And ice flipped out. I started screaming and yelling and everything as if the dog can understand the anyways Right? Like she she didn’t know what I was saying. She knew I was mad. Probably just by the tone of my voice and you know how loud I was and everything like that. But I mean, she’s sick. She’s not feeling well, what good was all of that yelling and screaming going to do anyways? You know, I was I was just mad that she didn’t take two seconds to go walk into the bathroom where it had been so much easier to clean up on a tile floor versus, but the white carpet right now I know I probably have to go rent a steam cleaner and you know, get get that out and everything. But again, in the grand scheme of things, it’s a pretty minor inconvenience, to do things. And like that’s not the kind of person that I am. I love dogs. I am not the type of person who’s going to be you know, getting upset at at a dog for doing something that you know, is natural. She’s feeling sick. So she that’s just what dogs people that’s what anyone is going to do. You know, quite frankly, I I feel like I like like more dogs than than certain people. It’s at times too, right? So I was like, Who is this person? Who am I wouldn’t have I become and my wife and I at that time, we kind of sat down and she said you know I thought you might be able to handle some of the stuff on your own. You know the stuff that you’re going through, but it seems like you’re having some tough time with it. It might be time to reach out and get some help and so So I did. And I kind of realized that at that moment, too, I was like, this isn’t this isn’t me, this isn’t who I want to be, and I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong and what, what I need to do to change. And so I reached out to the Vet Center, which is kind of affiliated through the VA. I’m not sure exactly how but but no, they are. And they, they offer counseling services. And they, they helped me to get my my anger under control, so that I wasn’t having these outbursts all the time, wasn’t perfect. It’s a slow process. It’s not like you go in, you sit down on a on a couch for one session, and then boom, magically, everything’s rainbows and unicorns, right? It, it’s a process and it takes time. But you have to, I what I realized is that you have to let the process work, you can’t just go in expecting that that Amazon overnight delivery, where you get the results instantaneously, it’s something that you have to work at, and you have to be conscious about what you’re doing and, and how your things are affecting you in your life. And, and that’s what kind of helped me to get away from being so frustrated and angry all the time.
Victoria Volk 11:12
There is a quote, and I’m going to add live because I don’t know exactly how it goes. But something to the effect of I sat with my anger long enough until he told me its name and its name was grief. And I really relate to your story in that in the anger because I would call myself a read I would have called myself a raging mom, you would call yourself a Rayji dad at that point by just so much anger, which really is grief and sadness and all these feelings unexpressed and undealt no not dealt with. But I didn’t connect the dots to a situation I experienced and tell your story when my son was three years old, and I had three children in four years. So I had a three year old I had an 18 month old and I had a boy she’s six months old. Something I mean boom boom boom like I was like a walking zombie angry raging mom right but my son just would not listen He wanted to take his bike out and I couldn’t watch him get my kids in you know I pulled into the garage and I need to get the car seat and the 18 month old or you know I wrote she was I think 18 months at the time. They’re 18 months apart actually the older two are 18 months apart and then the girls are two years but anyway a baby in a car seat then the younger one or the middle one had to get them in the house and he was like just going on and on about needing his bike and wanting to ride his bike and I said I can’t be outside with you right now and I can’t let him just ride around outside all by himself so right i lat I did what I thought I could do in that moment and I locked his bike in the van. Take the girls into the house next thing I know my middle one is coming in Mommy Mommy is Xavier is to is hitting the van with a bat what? And I step out in the garage and no crap he is slugging my van with the bat. So angry that I locked his bike in there that he couldn’t have his bike, broke our window, ended up costing over $2,000 to get that replaced. But I didn’t connect it until your your story of how our anger is just reflected back to us from our kids. If there are behavioral issues with your children, how about you look at your own behavior? Parents listening. Right? And what grief Do you have those on expressed? So thank you for sharing all of that. Because I really feel like that is a very good message for this podcast today.
Scott Deluzio 13:53
Yeah, and there’s there’s another example of this to where it not from my own personal life, but just from some TV shows that I’ve seen where there’s a show that it used to be on I don’t know if it’s still on or not. But it was with this dog trainer is a Cesar Millan the dog whisperer, right. And I remember, he would go into these households where the dog is out of control, and they’re acting all crazy and out of control. And he walked observes how the owners are, are acting in interacting with the dogs, and they’re just as out of control. And so he looks at them and he says, I think I need to train you before I start working on on your dogs because you’re the problem you are the one who is is basically making this dog so crazy. And once when he starts addressing those behavior issues, then the dog starts starts behaving a little bit differently. And maybe there’s still some work that needs to be done with the dog itself but but it’s it’s really reflecting from from the the owners, right? And so, you know, it’s the same idea, I think, Where where are our behaviors and our reactions get reflected to those who are around us.
Victoria Volk 15:14
Back to us, right? It’s like a boomerang, the energy you bring to a room, you’re gonna get it back. Yeah, exactly. So well, let’s rewind the clock before you were raised you Dad to where it all started, because you deployed with your brother.
Scott Deluzio 15:33
So we were, he was in the Vermont Army National Guard, I was in the Connecticut Army National Guard. And both of our units, there was some reorganization that took place before we deployed. And both of our units ended up in the same brigade. And so this deployment was a brigade wide deployment. So we are both deployed, just about the same time, you know, give or take a couple of weeks just with, you know, training and other cycles that we have to go through. Before getting there. I actually got to Afghanistan first, he got there, maybe a week or two later, but we were stationed far enough apart that we never saw each other once when we were there. And as a matter of fact, the only communication really that we had between the two of us was kind of playing that telephone game, when I would call home to our parents, they would they would tell me what was going on with him and vice versa with with him. So when he would call home he’d find out what was going on with me and everything. So. So we really didn’t talk at all, we may have sent an email here and there, but but really not much. And quite frankly, we’re kind of focused on our, our jobs. So we didn’t really have all that much time to take off to go give each other a phone call or you know, find out what’s going on with each other. So, so yeah, so we were we were deployed at the same time, but not together. If that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 16:59
I asked that because I think it’s important that people understand listening to this, that that’s a scenario that played out, often, still does, likely where you have siblings or people who are married, like my husband and I deployed together, not in the same place, but we knew each other was doing right. You knew what he was doing. He knew what you were doing. And yeah, you don’t have that same level of communication as you did calling home. Right? And so it makes it harder, I think, because you know what you’re doing, and you can’t communicate as openly and freely. And so, I mean, was that always in the back of your mind, like this worry, knowing what he was doing too.
Scott Deluzio 17:42
You know, what? It wasn’t really and I think it was like a defensive mechanism that I put up this the shield, telling myself, basically lying to myself saying that he nothing was going to happen to him, nothing bad was going to happen to him that he had previously deployed to Iraq. He was in Ramadi, in 2006, which was a really rough time to be in that area. And I said, if he made it through that, he’s going to be able to make it through this deployment, no problem. You know, I wasn’t even worried about him getting injured, or killed. That wasn’t even a thought on my mind. I didn’t even entertain that thought we were both going to come home. As far as I was concerned, we’re both going to go back to our lives, I was going to come back to my wife and my son and us, he was engaged to be married about a year after we were scheduled to come back home. So he was going to come home, he was going to get married, he was going to start his family start his life and everything with with his his fiance. And I just figured that’s what’s going to happen. And I didn’t give it too much more thought than that. I wasn’t worried that he was gonna get injured or killed or, or anything like that. Because that’s just not what happens. That happens to other people. That doesn’t happen to you that that’s what you read about in the news. That’s not what you experience firsthand in real life, that that’s just stuff that happens to quote unquote, other people, but it’s a it’s real punch of that gut when you become those other people. You know, and it truly was unexpected. As far as I was concerned. I knew what he was doing. I knew it. It was a dangerous job. Just never occurred to me that it would be a job that could ultimately take his life.
Victoria Volk 19:30
So what was that? How did that play out? Like how did you find out?
Scott Deluzio 19:35
You know, both happened to be on missions that day, where we were out in patrolling in these remote villages. His was not that remote. They were able to drive from their base to this village and then dismount and walk into the village. The village I was in we we actually had to fly in on helicopters the night before to this mountaintop, just outside the village and then we we patrol down into the village As soon as the sun came up reason why is because we were working alongside with the Afghan army and they they didn’t have night vision capability. So they weren’t able to walk on that uneven rough terrain in the dark, to go do the mission that we’re planning on doing so. So we had to wait for the first light. So we went through the village, and we’re doing our, our job looking, looking through everything. And at one point, kind of partway through the day, I got a call on the radio, and they said that there was a helicopter coming in, and I needed to take my squad out to go secure a landing zone for it. And so we did, we went over, we found a clearing, kind of at the far end of the village. And we secured that area formed a perimeter around it, there’s some smoke in that area, and the helicopter came down and landed. And when we were just told that there’s some VIPs on the helicopter, we didn’t know who but it was an American general and a couple French soldiers. So we are operating in French controlled territory, they kind of had that that area. But I think they’re just there to kind of check up and see what kind of intelligence we found and what kind of stuff was going on that day. Since I was a highest ranking guy, next to the general, I went to go greet him and show him where everything was in everything, which as a sergeant that was kind of a little nerve wracking, going and interacting with that general. So but he was, he was a nice enough guy. And you know, we were chatting for a little bit. And he gets a call on the radio. And it tells him and I can hear the radio, just by the nature of the microphone that he had. It says that there were two American casualties. Now anyone who’s been in the military knows that we don’t use names on on the radio call signs that at best, but we’ll never we never use names going over the radio. So there are no names spoken. So at that point, I was just like that, you know that that sucks. That’s, that’s terrible. I feel bad for those people for their families. You know, I feel bad for him. But there’s nothing I can really do about that situation right now. So so we continued on, I passed off the general to my my platoon sergeant and, and then I continued on with our mission. It A little while later, I don’t remember exactly how long later it was. But I got a call on the radio from my commanding officer. And again, for anyone who’s familiar with the chain of command in the military, for a sergeant to get a call directly from the commanding officer, either you did something really good or really bad. And, you know, they usually work their way through the chain of command. And I couldn’t think of anything particularly good I did that day. You know, I did my job, but it was nothing spectacular. And I wasn’t getting any medals for what I had done that day. And so my first thought was okay, what, what did I do wrong? What would I screw up, my guys lose some equipment, whatever, you know, and I’m flipping out trying to figure it out. And I couldn’t figure it out. So eventually, I linked up with a commanding officer. And he told me to come over to the side kind of away from everybody else to take my helmet off and and take a knee. And that was another red flag because they never tell you to take your helmet off when you’re outside the wire. Like that’s, that’s like a big no, no, You never do that. And so I was like, Okay, what, what’s going on here, something screwed up. And so when he told me it was that my my brother’s unit was involved in an ambush and that my brother had gotten hit. And so now it’s like the first time it’s It’s dawning on me that he’s not invincible, that something could happen to him. And so, of course, I’m just thinking, he got hit, and you know, maybe he’s wounded. And he’s he’s injured. So I start going into big brother mode thinking, How do I handle the logistics to get to him? How do I how do I get to him to be there for support? Or if he needs blood or an orchid? Or something like that? How do I get to him? And I guess what I didn’t understand was that, that he was killed in action. And so when, when the commanding officer finally told me that he was killed in action, I look anyone else I broke down, I was crying I was I was a mess. Except for I was a mess with with a rifle, you know, fully loaded rifle, all the ammunition that I could possibly need. So it was a little more of a volatile situation than then maybe if I was to find out when I was still at home, you know, and so I didn’t realize that at the time. But they they constantly had people with me, basically to make sure I didn’t do something stupid to either myself or to somebody else. And so there was there’s always at least a couple soldiers around me to just make sure that I was okay. Within about 20 minutes or so of finding out that my brother was killed. Our own unit started taking fire from the village that we had just come out of. And so, at that point,
Scott Deluzio 24:55
I realized I had to I had to do something I couldn’t just sit there feeling sorry for myself. But that grief that I had that I was experiencing in that moment, turned to straight anger. I was so angry at the people of Afghanistan for not being able to handle this, this fight on the road to require people like my brother and the 1000s of others who, who came there and gave their lives for these people. Why couldn’t they fight their own fight? Why did we have to be there? Why do we have to lose good people like my brother, I was so angry, in fact that I had actually this this fleeting thought of me just running back down into this village, and just killing everybody that I saw. And because I was just so angry at, at these people, not even just the the enemy who were fighting it with us, I had this vision of I just want to kill everybody. I was that angry. But I realized, if I was to do something like that, first off, I
Scott Deluzio 26:03
I wouldn’t make it. You know, just one man running down into a firefight like that. This isn’t a Rambo movie, I’m not going to, I’m not going to survive that. So I started thinking about my wife, you know, I don’t want her to become a widow. I don’t want my son to grow up without a father. And God forbid, my parents ended up getting a second knock on the door that day, telling them that that now both of their kids have been killed. I couldn’t do that to them. So I realized that I needed to suck it up, put this anger aside, put this grief aside, and I needed to focus on on my job. I had about 10 soldiers or so that I was responsible for that day. And if something happened to me, or if I wasn’t doing my job, I’d have my head on straight. something bad could happen to them. And then how do I explain that to their families? How do I tell them that, hey, your loved one is no longer here? Because I couldn’t keep my stuff together. I couldn’t, I couldn’t keep my head on straight throughout this whole ordeal. You know, how do I how do I say that to them. And so I realized I now had another group of people that I needed to get myself straightened out for. And so I did, I was still angry. But I went and made sure that my my men were positioned where they needed to be. And I said men, because we are infantry. And at the time, there were no females in the infantry. So they were all men. And I made sure that they were positioned where they needed to be, I made sure that they fire on their targets was going in the right direction, made sure that they were they were conserving ammunition, made sure that they were doing all the things that they were supposed to be doing. And they did a phenomenal job, I was very proud of how well they were able to operate under under fire during that time period. And, and some of them had already known about what had happened to my brother. So they were just as mad as, as I was maybe not quite as mad as I was, but they were they were pretty mad. At one. One of my my soldiers had a the two or three grenade launcher and he just wanted to launch all of them in just annihilate whatever was standing in his way, because he was just so mad. I had to remind him to conserve some of the ammunition, because we didn’t know what else was coming. And so you know, so that that took place just that was about 20 minutes after finding out that my brother was killed. And it was just horrible for me. After that attack died down, and we came out on top. Fortunately, we didn’t have any any American killed in action in that fight. But we we managed to stop the attack. I was I was told that they were getting a helicopter to come back and take me out of that that area to start me on my journey home. When the helicopter landed. I got on the helicopter and I was sitting directly across from that same general that I talked to earlier in the day. And he recognized me and he said, What Weren’t you the soldier that I was talking to just a little while ago? And I said, Yeah. And I said, Do you remember that call that you got about the the two soldiers who are killed? And I said, well, one of them was my brother. And he and I both just couldn’t believe the coincidence that I happen to be out of all the 1000s of soldiers who were in Afghanistan, I happen to be the one who was standing next to him when when he got that call, you know, thank God they didn’t use names on the radio because I don’t know how this whole situation would have played out differently, but it would not have ended very well. I don’t I don’t think so. That would have been a terrible way to find out but but yeah, that was that was my day. And then that that that started my journey home. So they flew me to Bagram Airbase the next day. I was I was able to be a part of what’s called the ramp ceremony, which is where they bring the bodies of the fallen soldiers onto the plane that that takes them out of Afghanistan. And and there were There were two soldiers. The other soldier Tristan Southworth, he was he was killed in the recovery efforts of trying to recover my brother’s body. And so I was able to be a part of that. And I felt actually felt very fortunate that I was able to be there for that. Most soldiers don’t have anybody who is like a blood relative that is that close to them, who is able to be a part of that. And so I felt fortunate that I was able to be there and, and thank all of the people who came through there were high ranking American soldiers, generals, colonels, things like that. There were foreign soldiers, Polish and German soldiers who came through who were paying their respects to soldier that they didn’t even know. But they felt the need to come and pay their respects. And I was able to be there and thank them, and, you know, really just show my appreciation that they were able to take that time out of their day to come in and do that. So from there I was, I was actually able to get on that same flight with my brother, we flew to Kuwait, where he and I parted ways. I continued on to Germany, Atlanta, and then back, back home from from there. So all in all, it took me about two days, from the time that I found out that my brother was killed to the time that I was standing back home in Connecticut from from the time that I found out that my brother was killed, it took about two days, which is breaking all sorts of records. As far as deployment travel is concerned. Usually you don’t get home that quickly, but but they bumped me to the head of the line for for all these all these flights.
Victoria Volk 31:39
Wow. And so did you end up having to go back on.
Scott Deluzio 31:42
I did not know, I originally was scheduled to go back, they they gave me two weeks to come back home for the funeral and, and things like that. But at the funeral with with any kind of high profile deaths, like a military death or things like that, there were a lot of politicians and, and things like that, who attended the funeral. And one of one which happened to be the state governor. And for anyone who’s not familiar with the National Guard, the National Guard falls under both federal and state jurisdiction. So so the the commander in chief is also the Governor as well as the President of the United States. So at the funeral, the governor of the state of Connecticut told, told my family and I that I was not going to be going back, she was going to issue an order that I would stay back, stay at home because she said no, no family should have to go through that a second time. And, and so from there, I stayed home. I was I was home for the most part. Since the day that I came back. The only time that was that was that I had to leave was to do the out processing. When you when you get back from a deployment, you have to go through various medical and mental health screenings and, and process all the paperwork and all that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, that that took me back to Indiana, and Camp Atterbury. So I had to leave my family for a period of time, they scheduled me for about three days to be there. And I was like, There’s no way I’m gonna stay here for three days. This is just too much for me. So I ran through everything. I lived through my teeth through all the mental health screenings, just just to check the box and get it over with because I wanted more than anything I wanted to be home with my family. And the only thing that was standing in my way was a checkbox on a piece of paper from the these counselors saying that I was I was good to go. I wasn’t good to go. I was nowhere near good to go. But I was like I don’t, I don’t care at this point. I just want to get home.
Victoria Volk 33:44
And I think that’s the case with anyone whenever they come home off a deployment. Let’s just get this over with and check the boxes. And you know, there’s no real transparency and honesty, and not just because you want to get back home. But it’s gotten a lot better. But I think you know, your rank your career, like all those things come into play when you’re looking at those boxes. And was this earlier on in your deployment? Or did it happen later? Like did you feel guilty about that?
Scott Deluzio 34:15
Yeah, it was towards the end of the deployment. So we I had gotten there in like early February, and we were scheduled to be there until October, sometime in that timeframe. And he was killed at the end of August. So so we only had about a month and a half or so left, maybe two months left in this deployment. And so yeah, did I feel guilty I felt guilty about a lot of things. I I started questioning, you know why I joined the so my my brother had joined the Vermont Army National Guard, which I think I mentioned earlier, but he had joined before I did. And I felt guilty that I didn’t join with him in Vermont. I I joined the Connecticut Army National Guard. And had I joined the same unit is, as he did, I may have been able to be there with him, I may have been able to do something to help him to prevent this from happening. And so I kept going through all those what if scenarios in my head, like what if I had joined the Vermont National Guard? What if I had to talk to him out of re enlisting when he did, which would have made him ineligible to deploy because his enlistment was going to be up at some point during that deployment. And so he wouldn’t have deployed. What if I had done any number of other things, you know. And so I felt guilty for all of those those things, that I didn’t try harder that I didn’t try to talk him out of reenlisting that I didn’t try to join the Vermont National Guard that I didn’t do any of these things. And all of that was starting to eat away at me too. It just made me feel like I was just a terrible brother, you’re a big brother, like, that’s your job, like, your job is there to protect your younger siblings. And here I was, and I, I screwed that up. And I couldn’t be there for him when he needed me the most. And so I felt terrible about all of that. And it really it just ate me up inside.
Victoria Volk 36:23
You said you reached out the Vet Center and and things started to turn around? When did you start to feel like you were really reconciling your grief and what what you had been through and experienced with the loss of your brother, and how did that transform your life.
Scott Deluzio 36:39
It took a while. Like I said earlier, it’s not a immediate overnight transition that takes place. At least it wasn’t for me, I don’t know, some other people may have different experiences, maybe they have that light bulb moment earlier on in the process, and things just get started getting better. But for me, I was going to the Vet Center for almost two years. And at the time that I stopped going, the counselor that I was seeing he was being transferred to another location. And my family and I we were we were planning on moving to Arizona where we live now. And it just seemed like a good time to kind of cut off the treatment. I said, you know, I feel like I’m in a better place right now, I feel like I’m not having these angry outbursts all the time. Maybe I’m not perfect, maybe I still have them occasionally. But I’m getting better at this. And I think I can I can handle it from here. And I wasn’t drinking nearly as much as I had been before, you know, and the goal was never to quit drinking altogether. For me anyway. So because I still, you know, enjoy a beer every once in a while, you know, with family or friends or whatever it’s not, but it’s not like, I need this every night kind of thing. And that’s what I was trying to get away from I didn’t need to drink to make myself pass out and go to sleep. I that’s what I wanted to get away from. So. So it got me to the point where I was able to kind of manage my life a little bit easier. And I knew I still had some work to do. But I felt like I had the tools to do it and handle these things on my own. And so we moved out here to Arizona stopped going to treatment for for a while. And a few years after, after being here, I started noticing that I was slipping into some of these old habits and patterns that I was that I had successfully gotten away from for a little while. But but they were creeping back. I was starting to have a short fuse again, where where I just get mad and angry at the littlest things. And it wasn’t until actually late last year, where I really realized why I was getting so angry at the little things when you’re in the military. And you know, this probably just as well. When someone tells you to do something, they give you an order. It’s not one of those things that’s up for debate. Like oh, well, you know, maybe if we do it this way and change it. No, it’s no, this is what needs to happen. And that needs to happen. Now it just do it. Yeah, there’s some times when that might be appropriate. But but in the heat of the moment, you kind of just have to follow those orders and and do what is asked of you. And if it’s not done as as it’s intended to be done, then that’s when lives are at stake when people start getting injured and killed. And I felt like I was carrying that same level of intensity just into my everyday daily life. And like that’s, that’s no way. There’s no way to live life right like constantly acting as If everything is a life and death situation, when my son spills a glass of milk on the floor, that’s not a life and death situation, when my dog throws up on the carpet, that’s not a life and death situation, I don’t need to have that level of intensity with, with those kinds of situations. Yeah, I can be frustrated that something like that happened. But I don’t need to be, you know, turning into Sergeant Scott mode, you know, insert gelling with the knife, hands and everything. And, and, you know, going absolutely crazy about these situations. And, but that’s what I was doing. And I found myself falling back into those old patterns, I was having more and more trouble sleeping. So I found myself drinking more and more, and getting it back into those old habits. And,
Scott Deluzio 40:48
And I realized at that point that our mental health is, it’s not like some things with your physical health, like, if you were to break your arm, you go to the doctor, you get the cast put on, it’s healed, you take the cast off, and it’s good, you don’t really need a follow up unless you break your arm or you reinjure it somehow, right. So you’re kind of just just good after that, right. But your mental health is a little more fluid, it comes in waves, you know, certain things can set you off sights, smells, times of day, or even times of year, can can set you off anniversaries of of things like the loved one staff that have their birthdays, or certain holidays that you enjoyed celebrating together or things like that, those kinds of things can set you off. And so what I realized is that it’s it’s worthwhile to just like with your physical health to go get a checkup, every once in a while, go go in, just have a chat with someone and just make sure that everything’s still ticking the way it’s supposed to be ticking, you know, you go to the doctor for an annual physical, to make sure that your cholesterol is in check to make sure that you’re, you know, you’re maybe do a cancer screening, you know, on an annual basis to make sure that something didn’t pop up in the last year, right. There’s nothing wrong with going and continuing to get mental health treatment on a periodic basis, whether that’s annually or more or less frequently, whatever makes sense for you. But there’s nothing wrong with that. If there’s, there’s something that could be popping up for you. Go talk to somebody. And lately, I’ve been in several different treatment options for PTSD. And currently, I’m doing prolonged exposure therapy, where you basically are talking about these, these trauma memories that replay in your head over and over again, and you talk about it. And the idea is sort of like if you were to watch a scary movie, the first time you watch it, it’s pretty scary. But if you were to sit down and force yourself to watch that movie 2530 times by that point, you kind of know when the guy is going to jump out of the closet, and you know what, what’s coming, and it’s not so scary anymore. And so that’s kind of the idea with with this as well is that you kind of relive some of those, those memories over and over again, to the point where they’re, they’re not as traumatic to you, there’s still, it’s not taking away the impact that they may have had on your life, but it’s reducing your response to it, you’re not jumping out of out of the seat in that scary moment in the movie anymore. You’re not waking up in the middle of the night, you know, having nightmares about these things anymore. And that’s, that’s kind of the goal. And so, so that that’s what I’ve been doing. And this is this is 12 years after, after the fact. And it’s okay, it can be one of those things that that goes on for for years. But you just manage the situation differently. And I it’s been 12 years for me, but I did have a significant time period in between where I took took a break. So it wasn’t like I was continuously working on this for 12 years, you know, so not to discourage anyone who who might be looking for that type of thing. It’s not like, this is a normal results. Where Yeah, this is gonna take me decades to get through. It may it may not I don’t know. But you know, for me, it’s one of those things where I just realized it’s okay to ask for help, even all these years later, and the help that I’m getting is, is helping in various areas. And so, you know, it’s just being open to getting that treatment.
Victoria Volk 44:38
I commend you for reaching out a second time. You know, we often think that you had that gap and you think you go through life and you think I’m good, I’m fine. I’m fine. I got this right. Did you have another loss that kind of catapulted you back in time to that heart Break, because you mentioned, you know, this is the perfect part to say this too, because you said, when you have a broken bone, you go to the doctor and we say in Grief Recovery, you have a broken bone, you go to the doctor, why do we not go to the doctor when we have a broken heart? Right? It’s it’s more than just our mental health, it’s a broken heart. Did you have a broken heart again, during that, that you found yourself realizing, Oh, I’m falling back into these patterns?
Scott Deluzio 45:31
You know, I, I didn’t have a loss to the same extent that, that losing my brother was I didn’t have a loved one passed away, like that. But what I did have, and this was, this was about four years ago now. And this was kind of in the middle of the process. So I don’t know if this was exactly, exactly what was the catalyst for, for this change for me or whatever. But it may have helped push me over the edge a little bit. But my, my wife had pretty significant medical issues where she started having some seizures. And she had never had seizures before in her life. And she, she ended up in a coma. And the doctors and the nurses weren’t sure what we were gonna get when she came out of this, this coma, they weren’t sure if, if she was going to be responsive. They didn’t know they didn’t know what was going to happen when she eventually came out of a coma. And so, yeah, that was a scary situation for me, because here I am, with three kids, you know, I’ve always relied on her. We’ve always relied on each other, I should say, to build this family. And now I’m questioning whether or not she’s going to be there anymore. And and that was, that was really scary for me. And I’m not saying that that necessarily caused me to start drinking and start, you know, falling down that this path because I think there were some other warning signs early on that I was starting to slip back into that that pattern but but that’s when I realized that I needed to get some help for myself, too. I needed to get back into it and start seeking out some sort of treatment. And I tried, you know, several different things, but but it really was once when when we found out that she was going to be okay, I realized I needed to get back in and start taking this seriously and not just say, Oh, I’ll be okay, I’ll just deal with it. I needed to do more, be more act proactive with my mental health.
Victoria Volk 47:47
I think that a situation like that, too, is such a reminder for us that we are not in control. Right. So when you’re in the military, and you’re wearing the uniform, and you’re the one that has to be in control, and everything is precise, and accurate, and you’re giving orders and taking orders and everything is you know, you know how it is. It’s a controlled, you know, we do our best to have it be a controlled environment, and respond like that when it’s not. Right. Right. And so when there’s a situation like that, like with your wife, I can see it could pull you right back into that when you lost your brother in this feeling of no sense of control out of, you know, but I also know, you had lost a dog, didn’t you?
Scott Deluzio 48:35
Yeah, well, this was this was later on. This was in the summer of 2020 that that my dog passed away. And that was that was a pretty significant loss too, because she had been with our family for, let’s say, we got her probably two months or so after my wife and I got married. So pretty much our entire marriage. She was there throughout this whole grieving process. And she was the dog that I was yelling at for throwing up on the carpet. You know, and, and the cool thing about dogs is as much of a jerk as I was to her during that time period, she still for the day that she died, she still was wagging her tail and happy to see me and we actually called her my my co worker because I work from home. And whenever I would go into the office, she’d be right at my heels she she’d always come into the office with me as she got older. She was an English bulldog. So very low energy. She would just come into the office and sleep at my feet all day and and she was happiest can be to be able to do that like that was just was was so awesome for her. So much so that on the weekends when I wouldn’t go into work, she would stand by the door and just start barking because she’s like, No, this is where we need to be right now. I need to be here and so, you know, so hurt the loss of that dog was, was significant. She had been there for the entirety of my my children’s lives up until that point. They never knew what it was like to live without a dog, my wife and I actually found it because the dog is so used to sleep in our bedroom, which had a little bed next to next to ours. My wife and I actually found it difficult to sleep at night because we didn’t have her snoring in the room with us. Which, which sounds weird. Like, you might think, like, Oh, my God, that’s so annoying, but it actually became like a, like, white noise kind of thing. Where were we almost came to expect it to be. And so yeah, it had some impact as well on on us. And, you know, we’re coming up on two years. As of the time of this recording, by the time this recording airs, it’s going to be a little bit after that, but even just last night, I was talking with my daughter, and and she was saying how she still misses the dog. And and, you know, so it’s had an impact on our family. And, you know, yeah, you can say it’s just a dog, but the people who live with the dog, like that’s, that’s a part of part of your family. And you don’t want anything bad to happen to them.
Victoria Volk 51:24
And you don’t want to break a dog owners heart by saying it’s just a dog, don’t people. Right, right. breaking their heart all over again.
Scott Deluzio 51:33
Exactly. Yeah. So
Victoria Volk 51:34
Yeah, I bring that up. Because it’s grief is cumulative. It’s cumulatively negative. So all of those things that you experienced it just stack up over time.
Scott Deluzio 51:45
Yeah, yeah. And it’s what really got me. And I knew that she didn’t have much time left with us. Just because English Bulldogs ate tend to live for about eight to 10 years, and she was pushing 12 I kind of knew it time was limited for her shoot, she was basically on borrowed time, as far as I was concerned, because that’s, you know, that they just don’t live that long. And what killed me though, was seeing my kids reaction when they found out that that she had died. The heartbreak in them was, was like, just stabbing me too, because like, I never, I don’t want my kids to be sad and upset over over things like that. But at the same time, I was glad that they knew the love that they had, right. But I’m glad that they were able to experience that because without the highs, you can’t have the lows, or maybe the other way around. Right? If you don’t have those lows, you don’t appreciate the highs as much, right? And so, you know, in a way, I was sort of glad, but at the same time, it was just it was like stabbing you with a knife. It was hard to see them experienced that.
Victoria Volk 53:06
So how do you because I know like, in those earlier years and the angry years and experiencing the grief years, you felt very angry and things and guilt and all of those things that we these feelings that we punish ourselves with, and we don’t give ourselves compassion or grace. What does that look like for you today? Now that you’ve, you’re in, you know, you’re getting help again, and things or you’re feeling more, maybe more like yourself? How has that changed for you? How you give yourself compassion and things like that?
Scott Deluzio 53:44
I think what you you said earlier about how grief is cumulative. I think that’s true for a lot of the experiences that we have in life. So you know, as you experience things, you you learn and grow from them all the way back from when you’re a kid and you touch something that was really hot for the first time. You’ve learned really quickly not to do that again, right and, but that’s like one experience that you you carried on throughout your entire life. Everything that you experience is something that you’re going to carry on throughout life in grief is included the loss of a loved one, a pet, family member, what whoever it is, there, that is something that’s going to carry with you, and how you deal with those, those things will also carry it with you. And I think I had a really hard time for for the longest time letting myself just just accept the fact that that there are certain things that are out of my control that that no matter what I did or didn’t do. It was it was his time. It was his time. wouldn’t have happened, whether I was standing right next to him or not. And so I just had to be okay with that. And, you know, it took me a while to start to accept that there are certain things just out of my control took me a while to learn how to grieve when I had lost loved ones before, you know, grandparents and things like that earlier on, but never, never someone is as close to me as my, my brother was, and I, I didn’t really know how to grieve that kind of loss. When we got into that firefight, right after I found out that he was killed. I felt like I put the grief aside, I stopped being able to grieve. And I picked up the anger. And that’s all I really knew was just how to be angry in the military. It’s almost like, applauded when, when you’re going around being angry at things all the time, like, Okay, well, this person is serious, and they’re intense. And they, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re really taking their job seriously. Okay, yeah, I get that. But when you’re coming home, and you’re screaming at your, your one year old, and you’re, you’re yelling at your dog, and you’re, you’re just being an absolute jerk. That’s not the same thing. And that’s, I think, I’ve replaced my, my grief with anger. And so for the longest time, I don’t, I don’t think I was actually even breathing, I think I was just actively being angry, trying to do something, trying to be in control of a situation I had no control over. And so it took me a while, but I eventually figured out how to accept the things that I had no control over to accept the fact that, that he was gone, that that no amount of yelling and screaming and losing my temper was going to bring him back. But what I could do is, remember the good times with him, remember, the things that we used to do the trouble we used to get into as kids remember the fun that we would have? Even as adults, we, we would go to hockey games together, and we’d have fun. i There’s various stories, I probably could tell about all that, that kind of stuff, too. But you know, I started thinking about those those things. And then I started thinking about, would he be okay with how I’m reacting to this, like if, you know, whatever people believe if they believe in heaven, and hell, and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, just imagine for a minute what, regardless of what you believe that there’s some portal to wherever they are, and they’re able to look down at us and see how we’re behaving, knowing what you know about that person, would they be proud of what you’re doing with your life and how you’re doing? Would they be upset? Would they be sad for you with?
Scott Deluzio 58:14
And I thought, you know, why not try to whether there’s that portal that I’m talking about? We’re not, why not try to live life in a way that would make him proud. And, and that’s what I’ve done, I think anyways, with, with my podcasts, you mentioned it earlier, the drive on podcast, where I I’m trying to help out other veterans who are struggling with various issues, whether it’s PTSD, or addiction or job transition, things like that. I want to help people, and so that they’re not struggling by themselves. And I’ve also written my book that talks about this whole experience of surviving son, which my goal for that is to hopefully have the other people who needed the service members who were dealing with, with stuff similar to what I was dealing with, to make sure that they realize that there are healthier ways to deal with the grief and the losses that they may experience. Maybe that those those people didn’t lose a blood relative the way I did, but maybe they lost a close friend in combat or in a training accident or something like that. There’s healthier ways to deal with it than what I did. But I also want everyone else who reads it, to realize that there is a real person behind the name that you hear on the news. Anytime that you hear about these combat deaths, you know, last year had the 1313 troops that were killed in Afghanistan during the end of that withdrawal period. Each one of those people had a family and had people who cared about them, and they had a life before that. They had a hobbies and interests and and things that they were known for. And, you know, we don’t know, every single one of them, we don’t know, maybe even don’t even know their names. But why not? Why don’t they were people who went out and laid their lifestyle down, we should take some time to get to know who these people were not that that would ever replace their being here, but it helps if their memory lives on. And so that’s, that’s what I wanted to do in my book is talk about my my brother and his upbringing and how, how we were as kids and everything. So by the time you get to the point where, you know, he’s killed, you sort of feel like you knew him before, before he was killed, and almost gives you that, that sense of like, you almost lost someone that you knew to not, not necessarily to that same extent that, that I would have grieved him or anything but but it just gives you a little perspective, little little insight into those names that you hear on the news.
Victoria Volk 1:01:08
It humanizes the story. Yeah, it does. So what is one of your most favorite memories with Steven or have Steven or a memory that like would embody who he was.
Scott Deluzio 1:01:21
So he was, he was kind of a goofball. He would, he would always do things to make people laugh. No matter what, no matter what the situation was, if you were having a bad day, you came home from work or school or whatever, and you’re having a bad day, he’d figured out a way to get you to laugh. If you were telling a story, talking about something that was boring to him. If he was standing there, he would literally collapse on the ground and pretend like he was sleeping. Because that was his way of saying, Hey, this is boring. I don’t want to talk about this anymore. And so we’d all start laughing because it was it was just funny, right? There was there’s one time and I talked about this in the book, because I think I’m gonna steal that. You know what the, we’ve done that, too. Like after, after he passed away, sometimes we’ll be sitting around, I’ll be sitting with my parents and talking and they’ll be saying something and I’m like, This is so boring is stupid. And I’ll just like put my head down and like
Victoria Volk 1:02:19
I wanna do that to someone see what the reaction is.
Scott Deluzio 1:02:26
But so so this other story that I talked about in my book, I think really shows how much life he had in him and how lively of a person he was. So we were up in Boston, watching a Boston Bruins hockey game, and they were playing the Montreal Canadiens. And it’s big rivalry between Montreal and Boston and, and everything. And so the Bruins had won that game. And so there’s this whole big, like, USA, USA kind of vibe in the arena, right? Everyone’s like, you know, all this patriotic kind of thing. Like, oh, Canada, you know, yeah. Okay, whatever, Canada, you know, that kind of stuff. And so, he and I had been a few few beers deep at that point, you know, really enjoying the game. And so if you’ve ever walked out of a pro sports arena, you know that the sea of people, you’re waddling like penguins trying to get out of place, right. And there’s, there’s this hole, as far as your I can see almost, there’s people, right? Well, we’re standing there, and with this whole big patriotic vibe going, my brother starts yelling, USA, USA, and he gets the entire arena, all of these people to start chanting that too. And, and it’s amazing. It’s like deafening how loud it was because we’re in the small, like, hallway corridor kind of thing. And it continues all the way into the stairwell walking out of the place, going down out into the street. And it’s just funny, right? So he and I had nothing but the or up until that point. And so we were pretty hungry. And we found a burger place across the street, and we went in to go get some food. And so we sit down and the waiter comes by and it takes our order and and he asked my brother is Canadian bacon, okay, on your burger. And my brother looks at him like he was about to rip his face off. And he goes, hell no. I want American bacon on this burger. And then he cracks a smile and we realized that he’s just joking, right? And then the waiter goes Would would you like french fries with that? And he has that same disgusted look on his face. Because hell no, I want American fries and the guy is like, I don’t even know what to do with that but you’re gonna get price whatever, you know, but, but you know, that’s just the kind of guy he was where he could get an entire arena to start chanting you USA USA. And then he can flip to just joking around with a waiter at the restaurant. And it was just to me, it was a very memorable time. You know, if he was still here today, I don’t even know if he would remember that he had done any of that. But to me, it was just like, that’s him. That’s that’s his personality. And I think that that gives a good good example of who he was.
Victoria Volk 1:05:25
Wit and humor. Yeah, I love that. I’ll probably share that story later. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you have, I have no doubts that this is going to be helpful for many people I could have, I wanted to like dig into more the alcohol and you know, because that’s a stir by talked about that earlier. And anger is also a sturb. And I could have gotten there too in the conversation. But I feel very whole and complete with what we’ve talked about. And I want to give you an opportunity to share anything else if there if you have anything else to share?
Scott Deluzio 1:06:03
Yeah, a couple of things. You know, for people who are going through grief, like like this, or any kind of grief, some people say it gets better with time, I don’t know that that’s true, I think it gets different. You kind of learn to live with that difference in your life. You know, you learn to live with that loved one, not in your life anymore, you start to learn how to not rely on that person being there, and you adjust. So life gets different. And the sooner you get Okay, with the fact that life gets different, I think the easier you’ll use your time you’ll have with the whole process. Not I’m not trying to say that it ever gets easy. It just gets different. And when you have that difference, and you’re okay with that difference, it does get easier. Because you’re not, you’re not swimming upstream, you’re not fighting against the current or whatever you’re, you’re, you’re kind of accepting it and, and moving on and learning how to how to live life. Without whatever that thing is in your life that you’re you’re grieving. So you know, anything from loss of a loved one or pet, a job loss relationship that ends, all of those are different types of grief. But the sooner you you learn to accept the fact that things are just going to be different. I think that the sooner you can get on with with life and have a happier, more fulfilling life, if I can. I know we mentioned my podcast earlier, the drive on podcasts for any veterans or loved ones of veterans who might be struggling to drive on podcast, you can find it at Drive on podcast.com. And then my book, Surviving son, you can get that on Amazon. Just search for surviving son, and it should should pop up there. It’s also at surviving son book.com. And you can find it there. But, but ultimately, the goal for me is to help people find hope, where they might feel that all hope is lost. So you know if there’s anything that I’ve said or have worked on that that might help people. That’s really the goal for me is just to get that information out there. And I can help as many people as possible.
Victoria Volk 1:08:42
Thank you so much. And I’ll actually I’ll put the links to those mentions in the show notes just to piggyback what you had shared. It’s about time, it’s making the choice to take action in that time. That really is the catalyst for change. It’s making a choice to make a change and taking action towards that change that you want to see in your life and in your grief. So, thank you so much. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Podcast, Sibling Loss |
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz | Finding Peace Amidst the Ashes
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
When Kimberley was a child, a house fire would change her life as she knew it forever. Both her older and younger sisters both perished in the fire. However, Kimberley wouldn’t learn the truth of how that life-altering moment came to be until her 30’s.
Growing up, Kimberley’s father also worked a job that kept the family on the road. As a result, Kimberley found it challenging (and heartbreaking) to forge deep connections with others because they were constantly on the go.
Kimberley found her voice through writing after experiencing a two-year “loss limbo” after the death of her dear neighbor and her mother’s death years ago. She’s since written a field guide for living with loss without losing yourself. Additionally, on top of Covid-19, she remains at her husband’s side as his health declines as well.
Remnants of the sadness continue to ebb and flow throughout her life. However, Kimberley has learned tools that have enabled her to find peace amidst the ashes of her grief.
RESOURCES:
- Ep. 40 Dr. Chris Kerr | Death Is But a Dream: End-of-Life Experiences
- Book | Grieving Us: A Field Guide for Living with Loss Without Losing Yourself
CONNECT:
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of the Unleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate grievers and non Grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in. It’s another episode of grieving voices. And today, my guest is Kimberly Pittman Schultz, she is an award winning poet and author who writes teaches and speaks about death, living mindfully, and being a force for change in the world. With 25 years plus, as a philanthropy leader, and charitable and end of life planning advisor, Kimberly has worked with incredibly diverse people looking for meaning after the loss of a spouse, partner, child, sibling, parent, grandparent, or beloved animal. Her focus is helping people cultivate joy every day, so they can be so they can more deeply experience the meaning and beauty of their one. And only fives, thank you for being here.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:43
Thank you, great to be here. With you and your listeners.
Victoria Volk 1:47
Just looking at your website. I felt like I like to look at people’s website and to get a feel for you know, the vibe survive. And so I actually heard something not that long ago that you can really understand someone by the written word, like what they write. And it’s like, when you meet your favorite author, like you’ve been reading all their books, and then you meet them in person. But you’re always gonna have like the some sort of judgment, right? When you first meet them? Well, they’re not really what I thought they’d be, but you fell in love with the writing, right? So you but you feel like you know them because of the writing. And so just, that’s where I really look at people’s websites. And I feel either either I feel that connection, or I don’t, and I felt it with you. And that’s why I had asked, you know, I wanted to have you on. So please share what brings you to grieving voices?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 2:45
Well, besides your lovely invitation, I really listened to some episodes, I think you do something different with this with this podcast, with your guests with your audience, than anyone else is doing. Because you really do allow people to spend some time with their loss story. So often, we’re so focused on how do we heal and move forward, which is a big part of what I’m about, right? You know, I don’t, you know, there is a degree to which you need to spend time in that story and really experience that story. And one of the things I start out with in my book, and it’s one of the first practices is telling yourself your own loss story, because so often, we’re telling our stories to other people. And we’re always tweaking them because we have a different audience, right. So you might say one thing, they’ll coworker, something else to a friend, something else to your pastor or your rabbi. But so often we don’t pause and really just sit with our own loss and process it. And it’s hard. I’m not saying that’s an easy thing to do. And you don’t necessarily want to do it at certain points of your process. But that’s one of the things I feel like listening to how you interact with your guests, is that people have a chance to sit with their story a little bit and then to move forward with what has come out of that experience. And it’s still coming out. Because you know it I like to say last comes along. And then it comes along with us for the rest of our lives. So it’s a it’s an ongoing process. So I’m really excited and honored to be here talking with you.
Victoria Volk 4:15
Thank you. I love that last part when you said it comes along and along and along and along write it because wherever you, you take your past with you wherever you go, right? Yeah, I had one guest. She’s actually a mentor for me through the Grief Recovery Institute and she said your past becomes your present until it’s healed or your past is your present until it is healed. So that was definitely true for me. So thank you for listening to my podcast and for your kind words. I really appreciate it. What are the losses that have been most impactful for you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 4:57
Oh, you know, one of the advantages and disadvantages, I suppose and being on the planet for a while as there are over time, you’re going to have loss and you’re going to have multiple losses. I think, obviously, for me, there were two sets of losses that really have impacted my life the most. When I was about three and a half years old, I lost two sisters in a house fire, we were all in the same room. And I won’t go into the details except to say that I was the one that was able to rescued and my other two sisters could not. And so obviously, that was a big, a big impact for me and my, my mother could not ever talk about it. And so as a kid, I really, ever no one was supposed to talk about it. And so there was that whole trying to process it as a little kid and then moving through your life. So that was at age three, at age 43. My mother was dealing with small cell lung cancer terminal, and two weeks before she died. So we knew at some point that this was going to come to an end, that was not a big surprise, although it’s still a surprise when you’re actually there. But you’re kind of grieving that anticipatory grief, then of a friend and my next door neighbor, two weeks before my mother died, killed herself, shot herself in the heart, and happened to do it under the tree that my kitchen window looks out on. And so So I have these series of losses, there been many other losses. You know, I have companion animals that I’ve grieved deeply over and still missed. Even I have other cats in my life. Those two sets, losing my sister and then losing Ruth was my was my friend and neighbor and my mother, within two weeks of each other, that were really kind of big events and pivotal for me, and in shaping who I am.
Victoria Volk 6:44
Wow, I can’t imagine. Can I ask were you the one that found your neighbor?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 6:50
No, she did it at night, Memorial Day weekend. And it’s interesting, because I had this practice. Every evening and I still have this practice. I stopped it for about two years after she died. But when we go out, I go out every night and say good night of the night. And I just kind of take in the night and I feel moments of gratitude. And I said good attention that to people and that night. For whatever reason. I was tired. I don’t remember why. But I did not do that. And I was woken up at one o’clock in the morning, my husband and I by knock by the sheriff on the door telling us just acid we’ve heard anything seen anything. And I just immediate it’s a weirdest thing. I just the weirdest thing. But I just knew immediately something was wrong with Ruth. And Eva said that to my husband. He goes, Oh, you know, I’m sure it’s nothing. And of course, it was very much something we learned the next day.
Victoria Volk 7:42
I asked that because you’d said your window faces. So I just Yeah,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 7:47
Well, fortunately, I did not witness that. And by the next morning, she they had removed her. I mean, she was no longer there. But I could never, I mean, Victoria could just never look at that tree again, the same way. I mean, I just could never, you know, to me, I’m very nature oriented person. So the tree instead of being the symbol of growth in life became you know, the tree of life, right? That’s the ultimate archetype was just really a great tree of sadness for me to look at every day, and just think about her being there. And, you know, and anyone who’s and I know many of your listeners have dealt with all that goes through your head in a suicide all the should have could have if I’d only and then what was going through that you’re just trying to put yourself in that person’s place trying to imagine how you your life is so broken that you get to the point that you’ve made that choice for yourself, you know, so So Now fortunately, I didn’t witness that. But it did become every morning every night. Every time I looked out that window it was really tough because we just a reminder that roof wasn’t Ruth, Ruth wasn’t there anymore.
Victoria Volk 8:51
You still live there?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 8:53
No, no, I was became very difficult to live there. And then after my mother passed away, we were living in Pennsylvania then and my my husband’s originally from California, we lived much of my adult life in California. We knew at some point we wanted to get back west. And that moving to Washington State before returning back to California. But I will say that Korea became very hard to live there to live in Pennsylvania just because my father was still there and siblings were still there. And I I didn’t grow up there. But I had lived there for seven years and moved there to be closer to my family. Ironically, when I left California, I would say to people, people say you don’t move from California to Pennsylvania, you move from Pennsylvania to California, you’re doing it backwards. And I’m like, Well, I just want to get to know get to know my family before we all leave the planet. And I kind of said that off the cuff and how true it turned out to be in terms of really developing, you know, getting close, not living to my parents and 20 over 20 years. So I’m so glad I made that move, but it became really difficult to stay there particularly to stay in that house. After Ruth’s left.
Victoria Volk 9:58
That’s even more great too, right?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 10:01
Yeah, that was probably one of the big mistakes I made. Because not long after that I was offered a position. I had been leading a CEO of a community foundation in Pennsylvania, and I’ve been offered a comparable position in the West. We knew we wanted to get back west, I had this feeling of just you want to flee, which sometimes happens with loss, right? You have this feeling if you just want to run away. And so in the midst of all this, and then my father is in his ended lifetime, he he continued another two and a half years. But you know, so you then move across country and you start a new job, and we didn’t move back to California back move to Washington State, which was, I loved making I loved about living there. But that’s a lot of change at one time. And looking back, it’s like that, that would not be one of my recommendations. To anyone at that point. Anyway, I think it was too soon, but I’m human.
Victoria Volk 10:55
Right? We learn as we go. But yeah, that’s a great tip, though, to give Grievers it’s, you’re not thinking necessarily clearly right? You can’t really tune into your own intuition and your own guidance system, because you’re so filled with emotional stuff. So I think before you make any life changing decision like that, like a move across the country, or a job or anything, it’s really take that time to settle into yourself and maybe kind of get some guidance maybe and how to tap into your own knowing. Right?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 11:33
Absolutely. And I think even though, you know, we talked about, you have multiple griefs over lifetime. Each of those, even though we do have griever styles, and it’s not the you categorizing anyone in any one way we do know, there’s some general styles of grieving that people fall into. And then you’ve got things like gender and gender orientation, or introvert extrovert, all those things play into how we grieve. But I’ve also found that each loss and different points in our life results in different responses to grief and loss as well. So it’s not like because you dealt with one loss this way that that means the other, you know, the next loss is the same way. And so what surprised me about my mother’s loss, in particular, besides being tied to this other loss, is, you know, I knew she was going to be passing away, I had all that anticipatory grief. And I expected it to be difficult, but I didn’t know it would lead me into two years of what I call lost limbo, because I just really, really, really was lost. My father who in many ways I felt closer to it was difficult to lose him. But I kind of rebounded from that much, much better. And I do think it has to do at a more complicated relationship with my mother, than I did with my father. And sure, that’s all of that. But that’s the other thing you don’t know. So you need to, you need to kind of spend a little time again with with your give your grief a little chance to unfold. So you know, what is it going to be like? Because initially, you don’t necessarily have a whole lot of control, you’re kind of following it before you learn how to, you know, reintegrate it into a new lie?
Victoria Volk 13:03
Did it help you too, and I don’t know, maybe you weren’t able to do this, or maybe it wasn’t part of your process. But I imagine your mother losing two other children. I’m a mother, I can’t imagine losing a child, you know, and so instil the difficulty of still having to be present and be a mother to you, in any other children that do have other siblings
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 13:29
Later on. Yeah, later on, my sister came along, and then something even further later on, my brother came along, so there were other children later on. But to get where I think you’re going it, my mother’s life was changed forever. And my mother, what I did not know, until I was 33. Because again, nobody talked about it. And when I would try to ask questions, people would just try to change the subject matter. All my life until age 22, from age three to 33, I did not know that part of what caused the fire. What I knew was an accident. But what the story I had been told to protect me actually was not true. That in fact, my mother fell asleep smoking in bed, and had a can of hairspray next to the bed that blew up. And that just immediately, just the house just went up in flames so quickly. And so she lived with that, her whole life and at the end of her life, you know, a big part of trying to, for her to find some peace as she began, you know, her process of leaving this this life was trying to come to terms with that even all those years later, as her life was coming to an end. It was a very real thing, but I didn’t know that until I was 33. So then I kind of went through a whole nother loss process around that because, you know, my my father said, Well, we didn’t want you to like blame your mother. It’s like, gosh, dang, I don’t blame my mother. I had this immense grief for her like for her like I was owning it for her and just, I think about all the times you couldn’t hug my mother, my mother wasn’t good at hugging like she, if you went to hug her, she just kind of lean in almost like she didn’t deserve a hug. I mean, we used to laugh about that. It’s like, now I know why, you know, and I think about some of the she, you know, she’s separate from some mental health issues as well. I’m sure all this exacerbated, right. And if I’d known some of this, particularly as a teenager, oh, my gosh, it would have helped me, it was still been a challenging time in our household, but I would have been able to process it better. So sometimes people try to protect kids. And in the long term, you know, maybe it’s not as protective as people think. But yeah, she, she struggled her whole life.
Victoria Volk 15:44
And I say grief shared as grief diminished. And I think that’s, it’s a disservice to children, when we think that not talking about it as protecting them. And my dad passed away when I was eight. And that was something to my mom openly grieved. And it was almost to the point, and not unhealthy. But like I couldn’t, there was no space for me to grieve. Because it took up so much room in our home. You know,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 16:12
Yeah, I do. I absolutely know what you’re saying, Victoria, I really do.
Victoria Volk 16:17
So, you know, parents listening, it does not help the children to shield them from the reality of grief, it really sets them up to, like you said, unlike me, personally, too many people that I’ve talked to on this podcast, who experienced traumatic or grief experiences in childhood, it’s not something that just goes away. Because it wasn’t talked about, in fact, it has probably more does more damage than anything. Did you feel this immense pressure then to to to do something impactful? And do something? You know, because?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 16:57
Yeah, that’s an interesting question, because I do feel. And it’s interesting to where you come at this question, because I think one strategy for actually dealing with loss and the fact that and survivor grief and survivor guilt, like, Why did I get to live, you know, just be I mean, I’m alive, because I happen to be on the bottom bunk, and old enough to walk to a window and pound on a window and get out, right? I mean, it’s just so arbitrary. In some cases, I mean, just the way it happened. So part of what has helped me is being what I call an avatar, which is, you know, there are times when I’ve not wanted to do something, or I felt really stuck, or, you know, I called the certain kind of Griever process I called being a bear, where you just want to go in hibernate in a cave, and just everybody go away. And part of coming out of that as saying, Well, you know, they didn’t get to live. So I need to live for myself, I need to live for them, I can see things I have clothing that I wear that my mother never got to wear, that now we were very different people. So she had long arms, she was taller. So I roll up the sleeves, you know, but I wear them for her. And I feel her when I do that. So on one hand is a really healthy and empowering thing to do. But I have also been in exactly the place that you’re talking about where at one point I became such a workaholic, such a, you know, just really felt like I can’t waste a single minute, because there’s all these people that don’t get to live like 911, I still think about the people who got up like any other morning and thought they were going to go to work or go to school and come home and it was just gonna be another day. And they didn’t get to have any more days after that. So you feel you can get to a point where you take being that avatar for your others a little too far. So it really is about balance, it can be a way to help you integrate them into your life, because they are part of you. That’s been removed. And so you’re trying to hold on to that part as you move forward. But you can take it to an extreme and I have been in that place and had to just back off and say, maybe my others want to rest right now maybe my others would like to sit outside in the sun and just chill, you know. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting part of all of this.
Victoria Volk 19:11
I don’t want to circle back to your mother’s decline and how you said that, you know, part of her process, in her End of Days was to come to terms with those losses that she had. And I had actually had a conversation with Dr. Chris curve. He’s researcher of end of life experiences. And the one thing that he says is that and I think this is something that people don’t necessarily look at terminal illness and think, Oh, gee, that’s a beautiful experience, or it can be right and I certainly was one of them because that’s how my dad passed away in a nursing home right but going through end of life training as a doula completely flipped that on its head for me, because I’m talking to Dr. Chris curve because just to your point It’s like our soul has this, this or soul process, what what it’s longing for right as we get through to the end of life and he had a beaut He has a beautiful example in the podcast episode. But essentially, and one of the stories was two that is shared real quickly, I’ll share it. But a mother had lost a baby miscarried. And at the end of her life, her family was in the room with her and she started rocking a baby. And they realize that, because there was actually I think someone in the room that did not know that she had had a miscarriage. But it’s, you know, the loved ones come to you, at the end of life, and it’s been witnessed and stories have been taught, it’s been documented in research that this starts happening as early as even six months before someone passes have a terminal illness. Did your mother ever speak to any experiences like that?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 20:57
Absolutely. And I witnessed it. I mean, I witnessed it myself and my father, who was agnostic and would never have expected it and who’s ended up lifetime in the hospital had some very amazing experiences. With my mother, though, to get to your question, it was still several months before she passed. So it is sometimes it comes and goes over that period of time. But she would have to, there were several, several things were meaningful. She was visited by her mother, she felt her mother there. And her mother, she and her mother had a complicated relationship. And the time that they spent, seem to bring some reconciliation at the end of life. And then and I write about this in my book, actually, there’s a point at which my sisters, and it’s not my sisters, it’s my older sister, I had one of the sisters that died one, when I was three and a half, my older sister was right before her seventh birthday. And my younger sister, the day of the fire was literally her second birthday. So she died on her second birthday. So my mother at the end of life for a while and it just lifeless for just out of the blue, in the evening would be visited by my older sister. And so the first time this happened, I was with my mother. And we were sitting together and you know, interest, kinda at the end of the day. And Sue was really kind of tucking her in, if you will, for the day, she’s, you know, no energies, you’re very tired, right? And, you know, my mother seeing my sister and became very distraught, I mean, physically distraught, like, almost like she was in physical pain. And what disturbed her was that the older sister was there. But the younger sister who had died on her second birthday was not there. And it was extremely disruptive to her. And so I’m going through my, my, my mind trying to think, you know, what can I offer here? What can I do here? Because she’s just like, physically bent over like, she’s in physical pain. And so I just said, Oh, mama, you know, little kids, she’s probably just off playing, you know. And the goal was not to anyway, minimize what was happening, because I could see what she was seeing. She was looking in a very specific place, she was seeing my older sister as a child, I wondered in my head at the time, Victoria wondered, what does this scene look like to my mother, because she’s seeing my older sister who’s just before her seventh birthday, and here’s her 40 something year old, you know, middle child, right at that point, you know, what do we look like to her. But as soon as I offer that, and she thought about that, she calmed down. And then she didn’t talk to my older sister, but there was just this quiet and she, and she just walked away feeling or had this feeling that my older sister was okay. And then she felt loved. And that was really comforting to her. And then my sister just kind of disappeared. And this happened for a while for, you know, really a couple of weeks. And then just as mysteriously, she stopped being visited by my sister, she never did see my younger sister. But somehow she came to terms that she was just off playing and that somehow the interaction with you know, whatever my older sister was, in that moment, whatever real is, you know, was very real for her. set her mind at ease, and it was a great gift. And it was not someone said, Oh, well, maybe it’s her mess. It was not her meds, you know, I don’t know what it is. Is it the mind? Is it the Spiritual World, I just one of the beauties of being at this stage of my life is it’s like, cares, whatever it was, it was real for her. And, and it was healing for her at a time that she really really needed that. Feeling things were okay after so many years of them not being okay.
Victoria Volk 24:36
And the how that is helpful for you to and your healing and for many families who get to experience that with their loved ones, right. That’s and I think like Dr. Chris Kerr said in that episode, too, he said, you know, we medicalize dying, we medicalize dying, and when we medicalize dying, we robbed people of the opportunity to you not keep them comfortable, but don’t rob them of the opportunity to have these very lucid experiences that really step like, set their soul at ease, really, it can help their release.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 25:15
Right, right. And I think it’s also a gift for you, if you let your mind be open. I mean, I’ve certainly had people. And I work in in charitable and philanthropic end of life planning. So I’ve worked with a lot of people at the end of their life who are trying to do some like charitable and estate type planning. But we’re also in a time now have of what I call kind of a good death movement, right? Where people are very consciously thinking about what they want that end of lifetime to be like, I think the COVID pandemic has brought new light to that, and people realizing what they don’t want. So they start thinking about what they do. But having worked with so many people over the years, who are in that end of life are nearing that end of lifetime. And the experiences they’ve had, and I’ve talked with people are like, Oh, Dad’s going crazy. Again, he’s thinking this, and he’s thinking this, and I’m like, don’t try to correct him. lean into it. This is real for him. And when you try to tell him, no dad sounds, so is dead, or, no, that’s not really here, you’re hallucinating, or we need to scale back your meds. People are well intended, but it doesn’t help that person at all. I’ve never seen any time where that helps. And if anything, it can drive people into I am I again, I’m not I’m not a psychiatrist, or psychologist, I just know what I’ve witnessed and experienced. And that is, when you try to tell people that these things are for you just make them feel a little crazy. And like they’re like they’re dying wrong. I mean, that’s just that that’s like that would be the crazy thing is to have people somehow think they’re doing their own and the lifetime, wrong, because you can’t and you know, the fact that we can’t explain what these things are, or we’re going to come up with an explanation doesn’t really matter. It’s for them, it really helps.
Victoria Volk 27:02
I also think, too, it’s why it’s so important that before you get to that point with a loved one who is sick or dying, or before you find yourself in that situation where you’re by bedside, it’s so important to have addressed what is incomplete for you with that relationship, because I think, you know, it can be a less than loving relationship, or it can be a super duper loving relationship almost to the point of codependency. And then you’re just holding on and holding tight with, you know, with the grip that let’s do anything and everything to stop this from happening. And it really is dishonouring the natural process. And yeah, so there’s so many different ways we could dig into that topic even more the end of life is something that Yeah, I haven’t really fully explored yet as an end of life doula, I’m not even sure what that’s going to look like for me. But education is a definite cornerstone of that. Just that’s why I started this podcast to is just education, grief, because so many don’t even recognize grief in themselves. But it shows up in all kinds of ways.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 28:12
Well, because grief when people think of grief, they tend to compartmentalize it to just mean sadness, or longing or whatever. But it’s this kaleidoscope, I mean, absolute kaleidoscope of emotions, physical sensations, thought patterns, it’s so many things. So you get, you know, so sometimes people will say, and I can think of several people I’ve worked with over the years who think in my book, I write about this one artist who’s really funny, she’s really quickly but she’s like, Oh, I’m so past grief, you know, over her mother dying. But then all the three years after her mother died, all these weird things started happening in her life that she couldn’t make sense of. And, you know, I think we came to the conclusion was she she was still grieving, and they’re still things she needed to deal with, you know, that she just hadn’t really dealt with. And they were showing up in multiple ways that you wouldn’t think that screen. It’s like, Yeah, I think that probably is part of your grief, you know, so. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 29:07
Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your book.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 29:10
Ah, well, you know, it’s interesting. I, you know, a little over a year ago, I started writing, I decided to write a book. And it wasn’t something I had really planned to do. But I had been really just paying attention to the people I was working with in my work and how they were struggling with COVID and the seeming randomness of this invisible virus that was making some people very sick and others not so much. And that, you know, initially the deaths were very terrible. I mean, at one point, I think in April of 2020, the people that were going into the hospital in New York, if they were over 65 and put on a ventilator, they had a 95% chance of dying. 90 now, things have gotten a lot better since then, we’ve learned so much. There’s more therapies, there’s all kinds of things, but that point I literally had older people that I was working with who said, I want to add something into my Advanced Directive. Because if I get this thing, I don’t want to go to the I just want something that puts me to sleep. I don’t want to go that way without my loved ones around me. And, and so I think so I’m having all these kinds of conversations with people. And then right before people believed in COVID, I mean, initially, there was like, Oh, you have to go to China to get it. If you did, this probably not a thing, right. And I gotten sick on a business trip. In Seattle, right around the time, Seattle was determined to have community spread. Long story short, I, whether or not I had, it’s not clear, I didn’t have flu, because I was tested for that. And the early when I finally was able to get a test, because there was almost no test here, it was a really early version. And I was actually the first person in this one area to get tested. So you know, I’m not even sure how accurate at that point, they could be accurate, and inaccurate both ways. But I was very sick for about a month. And so you’re laying there watching all of this unfold, and you’re hearing interviews with people. And you’re, and I like to read a little bit, you know, beyond just the typical what comes on your media, you know, news channel or comes up in a feed on something. And so I’m picking up these stories in strange places of people having what seems like COVID, even though supposedly, they never been to China, or at that point that France, you know, started spread out. But the fear that was there and fear across all age ranges, and the sudden feeling that, oh, my gosh, this could happen to me, this could happen to somebody I know. So writing the book for me was about.
And of course, you feel a little egotistical, but I felt like I this had been such a part of my life, it’s like, I’m really good at that. I’ve dealt with it for so many different ways I’ve dealt with it in my career, I helped raise funds for the first pet loss support Hotline at a veterinary school early in my career. So I thought maybe I can offer something to help people navigate this some actual practices and some storytelling, so people don’t feel all alone. And then my husband is in his end of lifetime. So, you know, the title is grieving as a field guide for living with loss without losing yourself. And the title really works on multiple levels. Because in some ways, you know, I’m kind of grieving, the end of what I know is going to be my own relationship with my husband, and he’s still with me, which is wonderful. But we know day by day, it’s it can happen at any time, right? That’s always been true for all of us. Right. But when someone gets older, and when they have a very major illness, you know, it just brings it into such focus. So the book was about, you know, not only, you know, you write about something, you get better at it yourself, and you understand it better yourself. So my goal was to help others to kind of help myself through some difficult challenges. And to just to just offer some practices, because I know for myself that there are a lot of really good grief books out there. But I myself when I was looking for different therapies or strategies, I felt so often there was no how to, you know, there were stories to read about there was talk therapy, but there was never like, what are some specific things I could do to try to take a break from this, and I had figured those out, at least for me, may not work for everybody, but I wanted to share those. So that’s really what the book is about. And I gotta tell you, Victoria, it’s just, you feel a little egotistical, like what do I really have to offer. But you know, since that time, I’ve had some amazing outreach from some of my readers, telling me about how the book has helped them. I had somebody come up in my Facebook, and I’m not a big Facebook person. But you know, she’s in Vietnam, and she’s not only dealing with, you know, grieving a longer term loss with her parents. But Vietnam has been having some very difficult challenges. And from what she described pretty horrific challenges with COVID-19. I recently popped up that one of my books, reviews on Amazon was from someone who lost a about a 50 day old infant, many years ago and has been struggling all these years, even though she has other children, and his mood clearly move forward in her life, but she’s still been struggling and found, you know, not to me, it’s not about my ego, but to the way she described the impact of my book on her. It’s like, you know what, something happened to me tomorrow, at least I know, I helped somebody, I helped a few somebodies and that’s what it was about. That is what it’s about for me.
Victoria Volk 34:25
I love the title too, by the way, would you say that you feel you’ve healed much of your grief.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 34:34
I do. I mean, I think grief is an interesting thing. Because in some ways, it is like a really bad wound and that you have some kinds of wounds that will completely heal, right. They’ll completely heal. There’s no scar, there’s no damage to a tissue or bone. And then there’s more severe wounds where you’ll have a scar that’ll be there’ll be with you. Or I think about Anne Lamott, the writer who talks about you know when you lose Somebody sometimes it’s, you know, you’re going to move forward, but it’s going to be like having, it’s like having your leg broken. And when it rains, you know, you have an achy leg that day because of this break that you endured. I think she’s right about that. I think for me, I’ve healed it. But it is like a wound. It is like a broken leg that aches when you know, when the weather gets cold and damp, or a wound that sometimes just opens up again. And I do think it’s that way for most people. So I feel that from the standpoint of, is there joy in my life, you bet even on the worst days, I know how to find it. But there will always there’s always something there because the loss does really go along with you.
Victoria Volk 35:41
Living in in it as we speak, you know, with COVID, and your husband, what are some things, some tips and things maybe some that you include in your book, you don’t have to give away the whole book, but a few things that you would share with the listeners today?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 35:59
Well, for me, what really helped me get out of what I called that two years of lost Limbo after Ruth suicide and my mother’s death and moving across country and starting, you know, a new life someplace else. Um, you know, I struggled for two years and one night I went, I lived there, we bought a house that had some river frontage, I was very fortunate. And I, when you lose, when you’re in grief, a lot of your routines and habits get broken. And that’s one of the things that I reflected back on that I think gets overlooked even, even in sometimes very, really excellent grief. psychotherapy, for instance, is the dailiness of our love how love is a habit and how, when you lose somebody, your days really do get broken, because there were times that you did things or times if even if they weren’t present, that you are thinking about them at certain times, or doing things all those rituals, habits and routines tied to them are now broken. And part of it is trying to figure out what those are, sometimes people don’t realize how their days are broken. Part of it’s figuring out how to bridge those so that they don’t get become giant grief holes, because I think we’ve all had those moments, I was talking to someone recently who told me on a very certain day, very certain time, she can be doing great all week. But when that day and time comes, she’s integratable because that’s when her mother died. She’s at least figured that out. So then you can start to plan around it. Right. So what helped me is when I was really struggling, and I had these broken days, and I hadn’t yet figured out why I couldn’t get it together, you know, why was I still struggling so much after two years, which I later found out is actually not terribly unusual. You know, I mean, it’s not the ideal. I mean, I would certainly Life is short. So I would certainly encourage trying to get to joy sooner rather than later. But the one habit that wasn’t broken is I always locked the doors every night before I went to bed. And I do write about this in the book. And one night, I just decided to wander out to the river. I was definitely having a blue day and I just wandered out to the river. And I was just standing there in the darkness. And it was very quiet. But I could hear the water coming over the stones in the river. Sometimes you can actually hear voices in the water. And it’s not like there’s really actually it’s just the way the sound of the water moving through the rocks and the shifts and you could hear birds shifting up in the trees, you know, and their night roofs and it was there was Miss so the just feeling and I was just really taking it all in and then I decided to go back and lock the doors and go to bed. Well as I was walking back to the house Victoria, I realized in that few moments, it couldn’t have been more than three or five minutes I stood by the river. I felt okay. I didn’t feel sad. I didn’t feel brilliant. I mean, you know, I wasn’t my world was I wasn’t suddenly cured or healed. But I felt okay. And so I realized I had taken a break from grief. And so then I started thinking I need to do this, I need to do more of this. And I started implementing what I call tiny come back to your senses rituals, because for me, it was just coming back to my own body, my own senses, being so caught up in the sounds, the sights, the smells, well, how I how I felt in that moment, that it turned on the volume on my mind a little bit because I think our minds are great for healing, but they can also pull us into some dark places. And I just got absorbed. And so what I will always encourage people is just the simplest thing at all is just to stop and breathe. And you don’t have to be a meditator. You don’t have to be in mindfulness. Those things help. But you can literally just take three minutes get an egg timer, an old fashioned egg timer if you need to, and just sit and pay attention to your bread or I like to tell people pick one cents and cent cent your sense of scent is often a good one because it involves breathing. Although a scent is something that really triggers you because your beloved loves, you know lavender or something you might want to choose hearing or taste. But just really immerse yourself in that sense for just a few minutes. And you really can’t take a break from grief. And once you start taking more breaks and make those breaks larger. Joy can start to come back. The joy is there. I really believe It’s always there, but you can invite it back in. And I will say, just really quickly, I want to define what I mean when I say joy, because it’s not like you’re a bully, and you’re gonna kick your heels up, you know, the, you know, all is good forever. To me, Joy is about feeling connected to your own life, feeling connected to the moment, feeling like your life has meaning and purpose, even if you don’t know what it is. But if you just belong to the moment into your life, and to be a part of the world, to me, when you have that, that’s really where joy starts. And that’s what those little grief breaks allow you to do. So that’s what I would encourage is just get back to your senses for a few minutes today.
Victoria Volk 40:39
I actually did that before our call today. My back patio is just one of my favorite spots because the birds and so I went and I sat on the concrete and just close my eyes and I just felt the sun on me and the breeze and heard the birds and the barking dog then ate the neighbor’s barking dog. But it really is just finding that sense of peace within ourselves. It it doesn’t have to be this pressure to feel joy, but just a sense of peace. That’s with that comes from within. And like you said, it’s not you can’t you it’s not just gonna happen on its own. You have to curate that. And so yeah, I think that’s a perfect, perfect tip to give because I’ve I’ve worked a lot in working on that myself, like just, I do believe I do meditate daily, but break in middle the day, 10 minutes,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 41:35
Way more powerful. I’ve had people say, Oh, it sounds so hokey. You know, and I tell a few stories in the book, one in particular that you know, up and coming executive who just was go go go, but every night would come home and just sob as she said sob into a glass of wine, because she was missing her brother so and didn’t feel like she had time to do anything. But we all can find just even three minutes. And it sounds hokey and Pollyanna ish as I’ve been accused of both those until you do it until you have that moment in that you had today of being in the sun. And you’re feeling that sun. And you’re also hearing things and even if what you know, you’re not even judging the dog barking, you’re just like, you might not have ever even noticed that. It’s just all these things that you that happen all the time. I mean, we have sensory input coming in at us right and left all the time. And of course, if we tried to remember everything and pay attention to everything, we go a little bonkers, but in the moment to really just feel that son and be paying attention to all of that. It just slows everything down. And you realize that the world is just okay. And it’s still going on. And you’re here. I mean, you’re here and you’re feeling it. So? Yeah, it’s not it’s way more powerful than it sounds. It often sounds too simple to be true, but it works very well.
Victoria Volk 42:48
Well, it takes a conscious choice. You can’t just say, yeah, you have to choose it. Because like I said, it’s not going to spontaneously happen on its own. You can chase sadness, and sorrow, which are valid feelings. But do you want to chase those feelings? Or do you want to chase, solace and peace? And feeling good? Just ask yourself what would feel good? Right now? Exactly. My face. And that’s why I chased it. I sat down and I just felt the warm sun on me. Because pretty soon it’s going to the leaves are turning Oh, the North Dakota winters are long. So yeah, savor it while you can write. I’m curious, too. You’ve given some great tips. But what are some things that you found helpful in ways that others supported you? And have supported you now with, with your husband and everything?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 43:42
Yeah, I think one of the things that has surprised me at different points in my life is when we think about being supportive for others, I think the two things I would say is, it’s very easy for all of us to feel like we want certain kinds of support for even if we can’t name it, like you don’t realize you have, you have an expectation until the expectation isn’t met. And then you realize that there was an expectation there. I think without realizing it, when we’re grieving, there is a sense of what we think we want from other people. And sometimes people immediately round us can give us that, and sometimes they can’t. And so there’s two things I would say about that, that I think are really helpful. One is it, it’s very easy when you’re grieving and anger and disappointment and loss. There’s so many emotions that go with grieving. But if you let yourself get caught up with, you know, you had someone on your podcast that talked about a friend who just wasn’t there for her, like radically not there for her. Um, you can get so tied up with and I’m not reflecting on the person you’re interviewing, but I’m just saying I’ve done so many people that’ll get so tied up and that becomes part of the grief, being angry, being disappointed being hurt all those things. You just pull yourself down deeper into the hole. Sometimes the reason people like at the end of my mother’s life, the person that you There are two people in her life two women friends she cared about deeply one of them was so there for her, one of them was so not there for her. But that’s because she had such an empathic personality, she could not personally bear it. So I would say, express radical empathy. And just say, You know what, I don’t understand why this person, not here, it upsets me, it hurts me honor it, acknowledge that that’s how you feel. But then I’d say the best thing you can do is let go of that and just assume for whatever reason, she or he cannot be there for me, and move on. Related to that is accepting that sometimes the people immediately around you are not the ones that can support you. Sometimes what you really need are other kinds of people that you would not think about. And so for me, like when I was really struggling with my mom, it was actually my mother in law who didn’t live near me. But we’ve talked frequently by phone, who I felt was one of the most supportive people to me at the time, in dealing with my loss of my mother and an understanding why this, why is it taking so long to read my mother in law, got it in a way that was helpful. The other thing is, you know, is sometimes being a part of a group of strangers that are on their own loss journeys. One of the things that I’ve started as a result of my book, and people wanting help, in implementing, because it’s one thing to have the information, it’s another thing to actually implement it and figure out how to integrate it into your life. So you know, one of the so I’m rolling out something that’s essentially a part workshop part course, if you will, smart, you know, sort of small group experience, so that people can support each other and the don’t, they’re coming together don’t know each other, but they’re on loss support paths, or are different loss paths where they can support each other in ways that maybe other people right in their immediate environment can’t. And sometimes people can talk much more openly about their loss with someone that’s a perfect or an imperfect stranger than they can with someone like a lot of mothers I find, and maybe you can relate to this, have a hard time talking about a loss, because they need to feel strong for their children or their spouse. And so sometimes it’s easier for them to talk with someone that’s not part of their family where they can really let their hair down and just, you know, express what’s going on and then have accountability. So if you say, I’m going to start doing the thing, where I go out every day in the sun on my back porch at 10 o’clock, so that I can start getting those breaks, and then you let your life get busy. Or you’re in that kind of grief hole. You have someone that can kind of say, Hey, are you out on the patio? Did you do it? Are you out there, let’s go out in the patio together, I’ll get on my patio, you go on your others. So that would be the other thing I would say is look for people that might not be in your environment that can support you or understand you and help you feel okay, and help you stay on your own path to getting better.
Victoria Volk 47:48
Absolutely. I agree with all of that. What has grief taught you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 47:54
Oh my gosh, Victoria, so many things. At the very I let one of the things I like to do is go with the very first word that pops into my head, which can be dangerous. I suppose if I’m having a I haven’t had a word nerds, or sometimes quirky words popping in my head. But the first word that popped into my head, when you ask that question is resilience. Because there are a few experiences. And you know, sometimes we like to say certain losses are worse than other losses, I really like to stay away from that because somebody losing a grandparent, it can be actually way worse than losing their dad. It’s hard to imagine, but I’ve witnessed it. It has to do with that relationship and the dailiness of that relationship and how broken those days are. But what I would say is, so whatever that when you go through a really tough period of grief, whatever that grief is for, for whatever that loss by name and via death, that might be a divorce, it might be you know, your parents got divorced. And now you don’t see your dad, very often your mom very often, when you go through that, and you are able to come out on the other side, you’ve learned some things, you’ve learned some skills for the next one of those that comes along. Because you know, we know there’s always going to be another something coming along, you don’t look for it, you don’t invite it. But you can become more resilient and kind of take care of yourself better so that when the next thing comes, you’re able to not get stuck as long or hurt as long because I do believe in the sciences there that the longer you stay in pain, it can become a way of life, it can become a new way of life. And then it gets harder and harder to actually get back to a place of wellness and feeling joy and peace and those kinds of things. So resilience is definitely the thing that pops into my mind. And it’s a it’s a code word for some because I know in some situations, you know, resilience suggests like Oh, Buck up, you know, come on, be a man be a woman. Yeah, that’s not what I mean at all to me. And I even define it in my book so that we’re talking about the same thing because sometimes even in the work environment, resilience is used to say, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and let’s move on. It’s like an excuse for not granting people space to To be human basically is what it means. But resilience, what I mean is really, and it’s and was often described as bouncing back. And I, I gotta say I disagree with that definition because I don’t think coming back from grief is ever a violence. I’ve never just bounced back, and you’re not really bouncing back, because you’re like, you’re not the same person you were before that event, you know, when somebody dies part of who you are that relationship, I mean that physical presence is gone. And you have to figure out a new way of living without that person in their in their previous form, you know, we can take them with us in a different way. So really, resilience to me is really about, you know, knowing how you develop the skills and mindsets to help you take whatever’s coming in to know to know in your bones, that you will get through this, and that you have an ability to, to get to a new place is going to be different, but where you can feel good again.
Victoria Volk 50:54
Yeah, I’ve said this many times on my podcast, and I’ll say it again, because it came up and that was your word. But when people I think the word resilience in used in reference to children who’ve experienced grief and loss and traumas children, I think that’s almost a way for adults to let themselves off the hook. You know, when they say children, oh, they’re resilient, they’ll bounce back, like you said, they’re resilient. But children don’t choose resilience. Resilience is something that it’s they either, it’s a survival mechanism, really. And so you know, this being a child who’s experienced who was in a home with a lot of grief, and was raised with grief in the home and had personal losses yourself as a child, you lost your sisters to don’t forget that, you know, like people can forget that, like you had a loss as well. And so I am curious, how did the lack of communication around your loss, your mother’s lost the loss of your sisters out did that, especially in the teen years? Because that can be a really trying time for a lot of people. But how did that impact your school years?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 52:11
Yeah, I mean, gosh, probably in so many ways, including ways that I probably can’t even articulate or even understand myself. Because you really even now the stage of my life, I still process pieces of it. And I still have elements of memory that I kind of come back and look at again. And as time goes by, and you have new experiences and memories, you know, that also changes how you remember what you remember, it’s, it’s there’s like a layering on effect. So it’s, you know, you just keep evolving, I will say by the time I got to high school, my father was also a field engineer for several years in my life. So before my sister and brother came along later, sort of the, you know, afterwards, right much later, I think was nine when my sister was born, and then 15 When my brother was born. But there was a period where kinda reminds me of me leaving my home in the east to go back west, you know, where my father got a job as a field engineer. And so we put all of our stuff in storage, we were living in St. Louis, then that’s where I was originally born. And instead of just leaving my mom and I there, while he went off to all these job sites, he bought a travel trailer and we went with them from place to place, it was actually a really good experience for my mom, because it got her away from again, just getting away from a very dark, place and time. But what it meant for me is when you’re constantly moving, and sometimes you’d like I went to three different first grades and several different second grades, and there’s periods where my mom would train me or teach me, you know, while we were traveling, or because we were going to be someplace long enough to really be enrolled in school. So I would say one of the things that made that complicating as you learn early on, because I’d had lost that every time you start to make friends and then you’re going to move ouch, ouch, that doesn’t feel good. So you stop really trying to do that. And so it’s interesting that I’ve spent a career working one to one with people because most of my life up until, you know, really into my 30s I was not just an introvert but painfully shy. And when we would move to a new place I just stopped really even trying to connect and so I didn’t as a young person build a lot of those relationship skills. I don’t know I still to this day don’t have a lot of close friendships. I know a lot of people because of my work but so I think you know, it definitely shaped that and when you add in this sort of moving thing you know, it has made it has made me for up until my 30s resist getting really close to people because if you lose them, it doesn’t feel good. And it was until I got further along into my life that I realized that that’s not a fun way to live either. You know, granted if you don’t love no problem with grief, right? You don’t have it right so you know that you so when you start loving and caring about people You just have to accept that the grief goes with it. But once you’ve developed some some skill sets, that happens, and when you talk about even resilience, you know, I always say, I really couldn’t agree with you more, I think it’s, we do expect children to, like, somehow they don’t understand and everything’s gonna be okay. And the problem is because they don’t actually understand and their brains don’t have all the different inputs and knowledge bases, they can come to some pretty bizarre conclusions, which I did at times about, you know, my self worth, did I cause their death because So, uh, you know, I had a, I broken my sister’s crayon that day, and you know, and she was mad at me is, you know, so and then she went away Is it because I broke a crayon, there’s all these things that kind of happened with that. And then I would also say, if you’re in a really bad place, it’s kind of like resilience in parts of the developing world that are dealing with war, or extreme poverty, there’s only so far resilience will take you with, even within intentionality, if the environment that you’re in is constantly, you know, difficult abuse of, you know, not really supporting, you know, a full, rounded, healthy human being. So it has its limits. At some point, if you’re in a really bad space, you have to pull your your hands unless you can get out of that. And some people can, some people will live their whole lives in a situation where they can never be all that they could be just because of the nature of their situation. And so they can do the best they can do. But there is a limit to where any of this will take you as well.
Victoria Volk 56:23
You know, when I think of resilience to it, in terms of COVID, many, many people are having to kind of dig in that resilience well within them. I mean, this because we as we spoke briefly before we started recording, it seems like where is the end? You know, it’s like many people asking themselves, when is the end of this?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 56:46
And the gravy? Yep. Yeah. And you know, and there’s this tendency to, you know, because, throughout across the country, and across the world, people have responded to the situation, it’s bubbled up at different places at different times earlier, in the pandemic, it was really no big deal where I live. And now, you know, at this point, we are a year and three quarters into the pandemic. And my area is, you know, has one of the highest case positives in testing and we had the worst month last month, even though we’re you know, a while other areas, people are out, living fairly normally. So I think that’s the other thing is, is how important it is to approach all of this from a place of empathy, to realize that some people the whole time, as we talked about earlier, before, our conversation now had to get up every day, no matter what’s going on, and put on a mask and go do what they’d always done, you know what it’s like, I always think of the folks working in the grocery store every time even to this day, when I go in, I come out with my groceries, you know, I mean, who knew you’d go grocery shopping and have to have a remote space around you. And so I always say thank you to the people that have been there throughout all of this to make sure I could get ahead and let us you know, by the same token, there were others because of serious health issues, their own health issues continue. And my husband, I are still very, very isolated relative to everyone else we know because, you know, there’s some health issues that we have to be uber careful about. And we know that the virus could be probably fatal at this point. So, you know, that’s the thing I think is important is to realize whatever is going on in your world, you know, somebody else has a whole different, it’s like the invisible back of rocks, we all have an invisible bag of rocks we’re carrying around, we don’t know what’s in that. So to really approach it with empathy without knowing when people say or do things that seem opposite or irritating or don’t agree with our beliefs. It’s probably because they’re coming from actually a very similar place a fear of concern about well being. And you know, COVID put mortality front and center for everyone at all age ranges. It’s not just something off out there happening to other people, we know, oh, my gosh, this could be me. So what does that mean?
Victoria Volk 58:58
Just as there’s no hierarchy of grief, or a loss, a type of loss, there’s no hierarchy of fear either. You know, it’s like your fear is no worse than my fear. My fear is no worse than your fear. And I really, me personally, I, I honestly, I don’t watch a lot of the news and I don’t, I have made a conscious choice and effort to not worry about COVID Me, for me, personally, my body like I am not going to let myself succumb to that fear. Because the fear itself is making people sick too. And I just I don’t, I don’t show up. I can’t show up with you. I can’t show up in my work that I do with my clients and grief in their grief. If I’m sitting here, living just consumed consumed by fear, personal well being those little breaks we were talking about sitting in the sun, sitting outside in the darkness they The Night thanking the day thanking the son thanking, just giving thanks, right? To wake up, right and maybe building in some routine to help bring some normalcy as much normalcy as you can. Just to get through another day
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:00:18
Routines really help, I mean, we tend to think of routines as staid and boring, but they I mean, I think that’s one of the things again, that happens with any kind of loss or grief. And there’s just such a sense of loss, because our, just our loss of our way of life, loss of ordinary, the ordinary ability to look at a face and see their whole face, you know, is a loss for a lot of people, right? So I think, taking, you’re having some routine, and people will say, Well, I have a hard time sticking to a routine, there’s always a few things, it’s like, you know that for me, it was locking the doors at night. The other thing that’s No, no matter what is happening, I make a cup of tea in the morning. And so one of the ways I started getting better, was trying to add in that sort of grief break, you know, after I was having my cup of tea, or as I was had or turn that type of cup of tea into an experience, not just slugging down a quick cup of tea, you know, to really experience everything the sense what it looks like, in the glass, how the warmth feels in my hands, you know, sniffing it, you know, all of it, the sound of it going down my throat, and watching the steam go up and just, you know, disappear into the, you know, to the sky. So finding it, people can find a place where their routine still kind of works, where there’s something that they just almost always do. And then just start by building even a few minutes. And it sounds crazy, it doesn’t sound like it would do that much. But as you know, it just, it can make a huge difference in how the rest of your day goes.
Victoria Volk 1:01:43
I have a morning ritual, I get up about 5:45 and I meditate for about 20 minutes. And then I do my gratitude journal. And there’s some other things I do. I’ve set my pot coffee pot the night before. So it’s I grab my cup and I come down my my Zen Den, I call it and you know, it’s people might say, Well, nothing’s happening. I meditate for 10 minutes and nothing’s happening and the monkey doesn’t shut up. And I think with grief, the monkeys have like tambourine. So it’s like really loud. Yeah, there’s
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:02:14
More monkeys going nuts. Yeah,
Victoria Volk 1:02:16
Yeah, all the more reason to like, just sit in nature for a little bit. But I cannot tell you though, after I think I’m on day 39, you’re not going to notice anything profound, right? You might get like this intuitive hit or this intuition or the sense something like you need to do that day or reach out to somebody or whatever, you might get a thought that comes to you. But I think what happens, more net, like naturally unfolds is that you aren’t as reactive to people as you would have been before, or as you used to be. And I definitely feel that true for myself. Like I’m not as easily provoked. And I think, especially in times of COVID, which can happen very easily amongst family friends. Yeah, I think it’s so important to latch on to something that can help bring some I really, it sends a peace within yourself.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:03:16
And that that reactivity thing, I mean, that’s a really important place to think about because it is very easy to be reactive to just, and again, you’re often reacting out of fear, or some somebody pulled your trigger, whatever that trigger is. But it’s also that ability, that when you start to feel yourself going down that path, it gives you a greater ability to pull yourself back so that you don’t get stuck in that place. I know just for me and doing my tiny come back to your senses ritual, I do have a process where before I start that ritual, I take a moment to check in with my emotions, to do a quick little body scan, like what’s actually going on in my body, what’s feeling kind of cranky, or crinkly or not great. And then after I’m done with my ritual to just have a little check in and just say how am I feeling right now, that also does help bring that sense of momentum. I feel you get that feeling a little bit faster. Because if you can realize I actually do feel a little bit better, you know, and that little glimmer, I think kind of motivates you for the next time and the next time so it really, yeah, I think we’re, we’re on the same very much the same path.
Victoria Volk 1:04:20
Absolutely. So what gives you the most joy and hope for your future?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:04:25
And most joy and hope for my future? Well, quite a few things. I think for me, it’s wanting to feel like I can be helpful to other people. I feel like you know, we all have different things going on in our lives, but we also have something to give and that even though I’m many ways introverted, I love a lot of time and solitude. For me, finding some way to help others on their journey, whatever that is to help them be able to be more of what they have the potential to be to help them unlock their own potential anyway that I can really help people live more Fully, whatever that means to them. It’s not about my way that to them. That is what really gives me joy and hope for the future and feeling like, you know, you take what you learn, and you pass it forward in a meaningful way.
Victoria Volk 1:05:13
My art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone, right? Because you feel like you’re on an island have one by yourself, like, isolated, you know? Exactly. And no one’s listening to me. That’s why I need this megaphone. So you have a megaphone, and you have the world’s attention. What do you want to scream to the world about grief? What’s your message?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:05:33
Think about that for just a quick moment here. I think what I would say is that grief and joy coexist, you have to believe that and you have to know it, then that in the muck, no matter how deep your grief is, to look for and find that opening, where joy is still hiding in that moment, it’s entirely possible to be in the depths of grief. And yet to have to go back to you in the moment of sunshine on your patio, that moment of feeling, okay, feeling part of life and the world and knowing that you’re going to get through it. So I think I would just want people to really know that joy is always there, it doesn’t feel like it at times, but you can look for it, you can try to take that break, and create those little breaks in grief that let just a little bit of light in that. And again, whether we call it joy or peace, as you have been saying. That’s I just think so often people don’t believe that there are some Facebook groups that I you know, follow. And so often people will feel like, I will always be sad, I will always be in this place. And someone recently typed in everyone talks about their neck. No, I’ll never get better. Is that really true? I don’t know if I can go on living, if that’s the truth. Some people don’t. I would say the vast majority of people do, but there is an element. And it’s what you said earlier, Victoria, there is a degree of choice. And even though we might choose it in the moment, it seems really hard. And each day, it’s not easy. If you just can believe in your bones, that there, there is something better for you. And you just have to try to find a way to get a little break in that grief. So it can come in and find you and you can find it.
Victoria Volk 1:07:17
That was my story I over 30 years, right? I thought that was my story. I’m just going to feel like this for the rest of my life. This is This sucks. You know, this sucks. It sucks. You feel stuck, you’ve no you’re not living to your full potential. I felt like I was meant for more felt like this. This is just how it is I am destined to be in this space of stuckness and suckiness forever, like Graceville you know, I was stuck there. And but I knew in my bones that I was meant for more. But I knew I was not living up to my full fullest potential. And so it is really just not letting go of hope that there is something there for you to help you. For me. It was Grief Recovery. It changed my life. It’s led to this podcast, it’s led to Reiki, it’s opened so many doors for me. It’s why I’m talking to you today, literally, you know. So Chase, that feeling of feeling good. You want to feel good, find what makes you feel good. And it’s not a sturb. Like we say in grief recoveries short term energy relieving behaviors, it’s not alcohol, it’s not going to be the drugs, it’s not going to be the sex, it’s not going to be the man or the book or the fantasy world or whatever. It’s actually action action, moving yourself forward through it, working through it by taking action. That’s how you widen that gap. So I that was
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:08:47
Actually a key component in my book as well. But you know, there is while you can do while there are the hummingbird Grievers that Go Go, go go go. That’s a different that’s trying to outrun grief right at times. So I couldn’t agree more that it is, you know, finding that intentionality to take some action to create whatever that is, and it’s gonna be different for different people. I mean, that’s, you know, what, what may have worked for you is gonna be different for me different for someone else, but the action is really just sort of waiting. Like, I have to say one of my pet peeves is when people say, Well, time heals. Like the time is time. I know people who have who are still, you know, 30 years. That’s a long time. That’s it. You know, time passed, and you didn’t you know, you know, that’s why I say you know, we have this one and only heartbroken but still beautiful life. And so regardless of what we believe after this life, the only thing we really know for sure, and I just hate to see anybody not make the most of whatever it is that is meaningful for them. And the reason that they’re here and to feel that sense of purpose. So I’m so glad that you found something that created this moment of being here talking with each other and seeing your face smile
Victoria Volk 1:09:53
And you too lead to your work. I think our passions in life is all about often are often born out of our deepest sorrows.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:10:03
It’s very true in working in philanthropy, people don’t often realize how much philanthropy giving, whether that’s volunteering, giving financial gifts. Random Acts of Kindness often will come out of people’s love stories, things, you know, sadnesses things that were difficult, and they want to make something better. No, not only honor somebody like a lot of giving, it’s a way to try to make sense out of something that’s senseless, basically, you know, that you do I mean, you just you do find your way.
Victoria Volk 1:10:33
Yeah. There’s hope. Don’t lose hope. Absolutely. So where can people it first? Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:10:41
I think we covered a lot of ground here today. Victoria, I just want to say thank you so much for this conversation. I, I hope that your listeners find some things that we’ve talked about that will serve them in whatever they are trying to work their way through. And just know that there are people that care about them. It may not be obvious right now, but they’re, they’re out there.
Victoria Volk 1:11:02
Absolutely. And where can people reach you if they like to talk to you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:11:06
Well, I am at poetowl.com. And I will be setting up a special landing page for your listeners. So I will get you that link for your notes so that people can I like to create a special place. So when you’re going to a website you’ve never been to before you know, you can see a familiar the podcast cover and just and just know so it will be poet owl.com/grieving voices. And so I will get that set up for your listeners. It’ll have a link to my book and how you can get that it’ll have a link to the workshop that I offer for people trying to work find a way back into their lives after a loss. I think I’ve agreed for assessment. There are a few things but certainly my book, an easy link there of it.
Victoria Volk 1:11:52
And I’ll put all the links to the in the show notes as well. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for your time today and sharing your wisdom. I very much appreciate it.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:12:02
I’ve enjoyed it. Yeah, I have enjoyed it. Take care.
Victoria Volk 1:12:06
You too. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend
