Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Sexual Trauma, Veteran |
Ruthie Bowles | Fight, Flight, & Freeze: Sexual Assault in the Military
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Ruthie Bowles shares her story of being raped not once but twice during her time serving in the U.S. Army full-time. The first assault occurred at the hands of her then-boyfriend. The second time she was assaulted was the very day she came back from deployment.
Surviving a deployment, only to come home and be assaulted in her own private space, along with the previous assault, set Ruthie up for a long road of healing.
Between her first case never being resolved, leaving her to feel defeated and made to feel like a victim all over again, she never gave it a second thought to not report the second assault. Besides, she was higher ranking and, she had already learned, from her first experience, that the process of reporting was painful and yielded zero justice.
Ruthie shares how these experiences impacted her decisions moving forward, how she nearly lost the love of her life, and how her experiences influence how she parents her children.
There is something to learn for everyone in this episode. We discuss:
- Fight, Flight, & Freeze; you never know what you’ll do in a situation until you find yourself in it.
- Shame and sexual assault.
- The revictimization sexual assault victims are often subjected to after reporting – and even by well-meaning friends.
- Red flags in relationships.
- The mind-mess that happens when consent isn’t given.
- Her transition from military to civilian life after these experiences.
- Tips for how she began to heal.
- Things to look out for in friends who may have something they’re afraid to share, specifically a sexual assault.
- Military sexual assault stats.
- Why the phrase “boys are easier to raise than girls” drives her nuts and the one thing many parents of boys are probably missing when it comes to the “sex talk.”
Resources Mentioned/Worth Mentioning:
Need help?
Call 800.656.HOPE (4673) to be connected with a trained staff member from a sexual assault service provider in your area.
Connect with Ruthie:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Thank you for joining me on another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Ruthie Bowles. Welcome, Ruthie, thank you for being here.
Ruthie Bowles 00:11
Thank you, Victoria. I’m really happy to be here.
Victoria Volk 00:15
This is going to be a much-needed conversation around the military. And we’re both, we’re both service members, please share with us a little bit of your background and we’ll go from there.
Ruthie Bowles 00:33
Okay, awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So, yes, I am a veteran, I joined the US Army when I was 18. right out of high school, I traded a scholarship before I traded a scholarship for boot camp, basically, oh. And they got me because they didn’t get me but I was planning on going to school for cultural studies. I hadn’t picked my geographic region or culture of specialty ad just at that moment. But they told me like, hey, if learning languages and stuff is what you’re interested in, we have jobs for that. And I was like, Oh, really? That’s interesting. And they’re like, yeah, and you can get to go to the California language school Defense Language Institute in California, Monterey, beautiful Monterey, and you know, you get paid, you know, and that’s your work for the whole time that you’re there. And I was like, that sounds legit. And I don’t have to waste a bunch of time on useless classes, like more calculus, useless to me. I have yet to use high school calculus. And so yeah, so I joined right out of high school. And so I consider myself a very fortunate, I don’t want to say lucky, because that was my choice to join. But I’m very fortunate millennial in that I do not have any student loans, because I opted to join the military instead, you know, I went to California, I was in school for tech, or I was in Texas for school, and did some training Arizona, some training in Washington, DC, which was fantastic. And then I deployed to Afghanistan. I met my husband in Afghanistan, and we had a long-distance relationship for a while because he came back before I did, and my first duty station was Fort Campbell, Kentucky, and that was where I deployed from came back. I was stationed in Georgia, after that, and then stationed in Texas and ended up getting out because just a week before my husband was actually going to relocate to Maryland for a while for work. And then we were you know, I was planning on requesting a change of station and going there. Since I was coming from a training duty station, they typically give you your next assignment, and I hadn’t been assigned to Maryland yet. A week before he left I found out I was pregnant with our third child. And so I did the math. And I was like, ooh, so I already have two toddlers and then then I have the baby. And then I’d be here for more time by myself. Yeah, no, I’m not. I can’t do that. Like not especially not on a training base in Texas, right? No, neither of us has any family, no support, no nothing. So, um, I was like, Yeah, I can do that. So I separated and I became a stay at home mom for a while, then we decided to stay in Maryland. And we wanted to buy a house. So I went back to work as a federal contractor. The way we were set up in the company, because we were set up by language, I had no options for promotion or anything, really. And so that was incredibly disheartening as like the high achieving person that I am. So then I started to explore alternatives. And I started consulting on the side and marketing of all things, no experience there. But you know, that’s what the military taught me is, hey, you don’t know it. You can learn it. So that’s good. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so so that’s what I did. I learned it. And you know, as I got more results for clients, I got more clients. And then I was pregnant with my fourth child, and I use my maternity leave to quit my job and grow my business, you know, to a full time capacity in that three months, and that was in 2018. And here we are still going strong, full time. You know, things look a little different with Coronavirus and everything. But one of the driving parts in terms of what we’re talking about today, and when you look at that timeline is that when I got out of boot camp, basic training, and I was in California, I experienced my first sexual assault while I was in California on that training base, and it was somebody I was dating, but it was an incredibly unhealthy relationship. And he was very emotionally and mentally manipulative. Really good at gas lighting and you know, all of those things. And then the right after I got home from deployment, so I was a sergeant and At the time, and it was I experienced my second sexual assault, it was the day I got back that night, in my barracks room. And you know, it was completely like I didn’t, I barely knew this person is completely different scenarios, completely different situation. And so those two things, those two occurrences really had a serious impact on me, of course, as I built up to the, you know, going through the ranks and getting promoted, and then even like, on a personal level, my relationships, and then even some of the PTSD, I suffer now, which means some things happened while I was still serving in terms of like the PTSD symptoms that I experienced. But there were some that cropped up later, after I became a civilian, working in on a base where there were a lot of military members. So I know we’ll get into a lot of that stuff. But that is a big overview. I’m married. We live in Maryland, as I said, I’ve got three goats, 12, chickens, 10, ducks, and I have four children, three boys, and my youngest is a girl. So, we just, we’ve got a lot going on over here.
Victoria Volk 06:19
That’s awesome. Let’s go back then in time, to that first experience, because what many people may not think about a sexual assault within a relationship? Is that yes, you can be sexually assaulted in in a relationship? And because no, is no. And so, take us back to that time, and how that changed things for you moving forward.
Ruthie Bowles 06:46
Reflecting on it, I like at the time, like and anytime something horrible, like that happens you, you of course, like wish that it hadn’t, you know, because it’s horrible. But at the same time, as I mentioned, like the relationship was incredibly manipulative. He was my first relationship since I joined the military, I had a long distance like boyfriend from back home, and that didn’t you know, that didn’t pan out, imagine that. And, you know, coming right out of high school and being so young, and he kind of swooped in on the coattails of that emotionally, and was able to take advantage of me. And that that was like there was no alcohol involved. There was it was just I did not want to at that moment. And he did. And people talk about you know, and this and this stuff comes up all the time. And for anybody who’s listening, keep an eye on how you respond in on like Facebook and social media and stuff, because you are showing survivors who maybe are not comfortable sharing their story yet that they definitely can’t be comfortable with you. Because people always say things like, well, why didn’t you fight him? Why didn’t you ask for help? Why didn’t you scream, you said you were in the barracks? And the thing was, is that and thinking back, my brain could not comprehend what was happening to me. Because especially at that age, I think like you’re just so very much wrapped up in bad things happen to other people, and they don’t happen to me. And so, you know, there’s fight and there’s flight, but there’s also freeze. And that’s what happened to me. I just could not process what was happening to me while it was happening. And I just couldn’t believe it. And even while it was happening, there’s just so much shame fighting or running away would mean that other people would know and I definitely I definitely didn’t want that. And so, the big thing about that though, is that if that hadn’t happened, I might not have been able to break up with him when I did. And even right after like, just to give you an idea of how emotionally twisted this relationship was even right after he was acting upset and apologizing and I was comforting him while also trying to simultaneously get him out of my room. But once he was gone It was kind of like this magic spell at least that that part of it kind of evaporated and disappeared and I was like okay, yeah, I can’t I can’t be with him anymore. And he stalked me for months. After that, you know, I’m assuming just like kind of trying to like wait me out. And I hadn’t reported it. I hadn’t told anybody. Because again, it was just there was a lot of shame around it. But my best friend and roommate, we went out to see the Dark Knight movie in theaters while we were in California. And when I got back, we are just Hey, I remember I remember like so clearly are certain parts I remember so clearly. Like I barely remember the movie, but I remember getting back to my barracks room and taking off my purse and hanging it on my chair and my roommate and I talking about how good the movie was. I picked up my phone and it vibrated, and I remember looking at it flipping it because it was one of those slidy phones, I was very fancy slidy phone and looking at it, and seeing how was the movie. And it was from him. And I’m not talking to him at this point, like we’re not communicating. And so either one of his friends told him I was there, or he followed me there or something else like it was, it was just it caused me to freeze and chills and and so that was the I was like, Okay, I’m going to report it because he’s obviously not going to stop and this is getting even more dangerous and more scary. And so yeah, so the next day I reported it to a sergeant at my language school and you know, per the rules because I told and I that was the thing is like, I want this to be an unrestricted report because he shouldn’t be allowed to do this to me. So I made sure to tell somebody who was obligated to run it up as an unrestricted report versus telling somebody who was obligated to keep it restricted. And so I ran through the whole process that day I might have chosen to tell him that Sergeant earlier in the day if I had known that like it was going to kick everything off the way that it did. But you know, I got you know, ended up we have in the military, we’ve got a Sexual Assault Response coordinator, at least that’s what they were called at the time sark’s. And then I was also taken with that person, that woman, I was taken to the Criminal Investigative division, their office, the CIT office. And so he’s taking my statement, this officer, and you know, it’s been months now. And he’s like, okay, we don’t really have any evidence. I was like, Well, what if he confessed? And he’s like, would he do that? And I was like, if I call him right now, I think he would. He was like, well, we can record that. And yeah, and then we would use that. He was like, do you think you can do that? And I was like, he Yeah, yeah, cuz he’s been stalking me. And I don’t want to live like this anymore. And so, I’ve got the SARC person on one side, she was on my left side, on the long side of the table, and then the CIT officer was sitting on the short side of the table. And I put my phone on speakerphone, lay it on the table. He’s got a tape recorder right next to it, because we weren’t super fancy yet. And so, he had a tape recorder right next to it, and he’s on speakerphone. And so, I call him and you know, as like, Hey, I got your text message. And so he was just like, Yeah, I just really wanted to talk to you never respond. And so, I just thought that that would get you to respond. And you know, I’m just really sorry, and I just want to get back together. And I was like, but what you did was horrible. And he was like, I know, and I was He’s like, I know, and I should never have done it. I was like, so you admit it then? I was like, so you admit that you raped me that that day? And he was like, Yeah, he’s like I did. And I’m so sorry. And you know, I got off the phone with him. I wasn’t even really listening anymore after he said, after he confessed, and they went and picked him up. And so it seemed like it was in the bag in terms of closure and being over, you know, this part. And the SARC coordinator, she dropped me off back in my barracks room was telling me about all like, the, you know, they’ve got group therapy options, and, you know, I could do individual therapy. And you know, she would schedule me for medical testing, and all these things. And so she said, she would call me and she had some paperwork for me and everything. I was like, okay, and they and like, and then the CD had gone to pick them up. So they Okay, finally, this is over. And it was not, it was not over. I never heard from the SART coordinator ever again, like she disappeared in terms of how I understood things to be, there was never any group therapy or individual therapy or medical testing, which it turned out that I needed because he had given me chlamydia, which I didn’t find out until months later was picked up by ci D. But then, you know, he was released, like, you know, pending the investigation. And it was a few months later when I was getting ready to do my language testing and things so I could leave the language school. I mean, he did have a restraining order, which is hard on a small base. So yeah, so there was a restraining order, but he was pretty good at being present without breaking it. So I was typically the person who left any place where I saw him.
Victoria Volk 14:14
So he was still stalking you at the time?
Ruthie Bowles 14:18
On the way Yeah, yeah, just you know, kind of staying out of the bounds and things like that. And then when I get closer, it’s time for me to leave the jag. That’s our you know, our military judicial officer system. They came back and had my chain of command call me in and I was like, Oh, great. Somebody is about to tell me the results of the case. Great. No, that’s not what’s happening. They call me back in because ci D had stored my recording, which was basically my only piece of evidence as compelling as it was it was the only piece next to some sort of a track unit or air conditioning unit or whatever, that malfunctioned and destroyed. I tape as well as some other people’s thing. And so jag said they had to take my statement and get in all of its detail. And so I gave it again, not thinking and then, you know, it was just kind of, Okay, I took it. And then I just I just wanted to forget about it again, because I needed to go take this language test so I could graduate and it was actually around that time, because you’re doing processing to get off the base. So part of that is medical. So I did do testing and that was around the time as well that I found out that I had chlamydia. Thankfully, it wasn’t anything, you know, permanent. And I was able to, you know, get rid of it. It wasn’t until I moved on to my next duty station, where the jag office was headquartered for the two bases. It was at the next duty station. I walked past it every day, wondering like, Man, what happened, what happened? And then a few months, I had been in there and I started seeing some of his classmates show up. And I was like, what if I walk past him here? Like, nobody has told me what happened, like with my case. So, one day, I go to the jag office, go up to the appropriate floor, I sign in, and I end up in front of one of the same jag officers who took my second statement after my evidence was destroyed. And she was incredibly uncomfortable. And she was like, so nobody told you what happened with your case. Like somebody was supposed to tell you like, didn’t you get contacted by Sark? I’m like, no, I never heard from her ever again. The day after, like the day I reported that was last time I saw her so can you please just tell me and so she said she was incredibly uncomfortable. And so, she told me that because my evidence was destroyed. And all they had was my statement, the Air Force had opted to give him a letter of reprimand. So that was the other part where it was confusing was that it was a Joint Service incident. And so the Air Force was in charge of determining what his punishment was to be not the army. And so the Air Force decided probably based on the merits of the fact that he was such a great airman. Because he was, at least on the surface, right, he got a letter of reprimand. And so, I left the office feeling just like completely let down like I had wished that I had just let him continue to stalk me until we left because that whole process like because it was a unrestricted report, even while I was still at the language school, like there were people talking about me and all this other stuff. And because he was such a good airman on the outside, and he was very charismatic, had a ton of friends, like so then now all of his friends hate me. It was really bad. And I regretted reporting, for sure. So, when it happened the second time, like I was just like, no, y’all are not doing this to me again. And I’m a sergeant now. And I was assaulted by somebody who was one rank lower than me alcohol involved. And it was the day we got back from deployment, like I was in more danger in my own barracks room, then I was over there, they shot at us. That’s true. But the most damage that happened to me was right when I got back home. And so I definitely didn’t report that I was planning, you know, I was I just re enlisted, I was changing duty stations in a few months again, and I didn’t want to be held up there for this guy who had a lot, a lot of things in common in terms of him as a person, because he looked like a great soldier on the surface, he was engaged to somebody who lived across the hall from me, he was, you know, getting ready for promotion, you know, he looked the part of a good soldier. And I was like, yeah, I’m not going up against that again. So I did not report it. The second time, because of that, like that first experience taught me that nobody was going to help me, and that it was just going to be horrible for me.
Victoria Volk 18:27
Thank you for sharing, first of all, your story on that. And I’m curious too, and maybe the listeners were there warning signs for the first time?
Ruthie Bowles 18:42
I mean, just the whole relationship was bad, like, like he was really good at guilting me into things, and making it seem like any emotional hang ups that I had, were like hurting him. And I’m, I’m an incredibly empathetic person, I qualify as a highly sensitive person. And so I’m just I’m very sensitive to the emotions and what I perceive is the needs of other people. And especially at that age, I was very good at subjugating my own needs in favor of taking care of, you know, whoever I considered my people. Now this is fine. In reciprocal relationships where the other person is willing to do as much for you as you are for them. Whether it’s a romantic relationship or a relationship, like a friend relationship, like my best friend at the time, we’re still best friends, because we had that type of relationship where I would do anything for her, but she would also do anything for me. And that was fine. But when you’re that type of person where you will do anything for someone else and an empathetically, you’re so good at just reading body language and my facial expressions and, and things like that, like you pick up and try to take care of and satisfy whatever even if they haven’t said it, and they can hurt you almost as much as if they had, you know, actually struck a blow with a facial expression, or a shift in body language because you’re so in tune with the people around you. And so the whole relationship was a warning sign because he was that type of person to take advantage. The whole relationship was bad. But the thing is, is it looked great on the surface, like many things, it looked great on surf, you know, we looked like a good couple, we did all the right things, we went to the movies together, and we studied together, we went to go eat, and we like to dance like on the surface, things looked good. And so the only person who would have been privy to the warning signs probably would have been me, but I just I wasn’t aware. And because of the the huge culture shock to joining. And basic training, like you volunteer in the United States, you volunteer, but you’re still ripped away from everything, right? Like all the people, as long as you have a healthy home environment, all of the people who love you and your friends and everything that’s familiar, you’re ripped away and thrown into this thing. And and when I went through basic training, they still screamed in your face. Right, like, I remember crying the first day because like, like I could have been in college, and here I am getting dirty and dusty, and there’s dirt in my eyes, and I’m just crying into the dirt because I can’t do all these pushups that they want me to do, like, the culture shock was still happening even at the language school, it doesn’t wear off because you’re still adjusting. And then of course, having the relationship with the boyfriend back home go bad, coupled with all of those other things, I was just like, a quivering pile of vulnerability in a set of AC use the army combat uniform, at like just waiting for somebody to walk by and take advantage. You know, maybe that’s something that should be more readily considered, at least in terms of training soldiers, you know, probably very much like college students. But with a bit more extreme ness, you know, when compared with the college experience in terms of how you’re, you know, you’re you’re pulled in and how you’re broken down and built back up. I obviously was not built back up in some of the right places. You know, basic training is not necessarily meant to give you you know, emotional resilience and understanding, you know, how those types of things can happen to you in relationships. They don’t put those up on the quarterly slideshows.
Victoria Volk 22:35
Well, one thing too, the military doesn’t take into consideration. And I’ve spoken about this before on in other podcasts and things like that, but that they never really do a screening of what’s happened to you, what have you gone through in your life? What are your aces, you know, in, you know, your adverse childhood experiences? Because the more aces you have, the more susceptible you are, to having addiction issues, you’re more vulnerable to somebody to take advantage of you. When you haven’t processed any childhood trauma or anything like that. That’s one thing I wish that they would do for people who want to enlist in the military. So, thank you for bringing that point up. I think it’s very important. And for parents who are listening, and their kid wants to join the military take into consideration it isn’t for everybody. Would you agree? Like it’s not for everybody.
Ruthie Bowles 23:35
It’s not and then even just on the surface, when you look at the number of people who you know, would fail out, or what we would say whether they would recycle, they’d have to do it again, those are all those are all indicators. And just to be clear, I loved being a soldier. I loved it. And part of what I felt like my mission as a soldier was was to improve things so those types of things, at least happened less or stopped happening all together, I had decided that I was gonna I was going to retire I was going to be like that crunchy old Sergeant that people just didn’t understand why this person doesn’t just get out. I wanted to be that person because I wanted to be in long enough to incite real change and to help people and to try and affect some culture change. So for people who want to join or parents who have children who want to join I like I had the person I am right now I would not be without my experience. And my military experience overall was positive. It was like I like I said, if I if I hadn’t felt like I had to get out when I was pregnant with my third child, I would still be in but maybe instead I would be okay now. You know, Ruby’s Master Sergeant. bowls are something you know, I wanted to be a Command Sergeant Major. And I wanted to make serious changes within what we call the sexual harassment, Assault Response Program sharp, I wanted to be involved in making serious changes there. So just just to be clear, I do love the person that I am right now. And I again looking back like I can’t. Now I can’t say I wish those things hadn’t happened, because I’ve learned that I was strong enough to bear it. And now I’m in a position where I can talk with people like you openly about it, and hopefully, give some encouragement and energy and hope to people who aren’t yet at a point where they feel comfortable sharing when something like this happens, you feel incredibly alone, and there’s so much shame that you bear that is not your own. And that is the position I’m in now is that I can share. At a minimum, I can share and hope that somebody will hear it, who needs to hear it and gives them something, whatever they need whatever they can extract from my story, I hope that they extract it, and they can take what they need from it. And so that is the position I’m in now. And I’m just grateful that I was a strong enough person to be able to bear it and then move forward,
Victoria Volk 26:15
I would agree to like it, if it wouldn’t have been for my military experience, I wouldn’t be the person I am today, it was a very positive experience for me as well. I’m just saying for someone who’s gone through, you know, sexual trauma or things like that broken homes, for a lot of people, it’s a way out to join the military, because it’s a way out there escaping something. And so in those instances, and then you go on, you deploy and some people deploy time after time after time, and that’s where the mental health crisis within the military is what it is today. So all of it plays a factor and things that need to change and be addressed. And I think they’re, I think there’s strides being taken and doing so far. There was actually an episode of ABC 2020. I just watched this last weekend. I DVR it, DVR a lot of crime shows anyway, but it was about Vanessa again. And she was a I believe a private first class for a promotion, who had been being sexually harassed by a fellow soldier who was higher ranking than her I think a sergeant at the time and ended up being ultimately murdered by him because she was going to report it. And towards the end of the episode representative Jackie’s spire spear, I’m not sure how you say it. She’s the US House of Representatives in California, she had said, and I want to share the statistic because I think it’s important. She said that 20,000 service members are sexually assaulted every year, only 5000 of them will report it. And of the 5000 only 500 will go to a court martial. And only 250 of those 500 will actually be convicted. And she said what does that tell anyone who has been sexually assaulted? don’t report because you will not receive justice. And I think this is very similar. I mean, this story. And this was at Fort Hood, which has this story really opened a can of worms on it is happening at Fort Hood. There’s a huge internal and external investigation going on right now. But I think though that story is one of millions. And it’s not just the military, it’s just in general, I think in sexual assault, you don’t report because you’re scared because you’re intimidated by your offender or feel shame.
Ruthie Bowles 28:40
And her numbers in terms of who it’s happening to, like I would even question those, right? Because you can’t like we in the military, we’ve got the restricted and unrestricted reports. Right. But then you also have people who don’t report at all, right? Like my second, my second one was not counted. Why? Because I did not report it at all. And I lived in a military barracks, our floor was male and female, half the floor was female. So he just walked down the hallway, you know, um, and that’s just it is it is, what it is, at least in terms of how things were set up, and how vulnerable you know, a position we were in, but you can’t count people who don’t report, not necessarily so even that 20,000 like that’s an estimate. That’s an error, for sure. And I’m willing to bet that it’s worse because, you know, alcohol, you know, abuse and such runs rampant, especially when you look at the bases who deployed time and time again, that the base that I was on, where I deployed from they they were like 12 months on 12 months off. So they deployed pretty much every other year, and then they just plugged you back in. They’re like yeah, okay, you’re back now. Don’t crash your car, or that new motorcycle you just bought, which happens all the time.
Victoria Volk 29:52
Well, and you’re so young, right? Like you said, 18 like you don’t know yourself when you’re 18 I think some people we don’t I like, I don’t even think I really knew myself until oh, gosh, 35?
Ruthie Bowles 30:04
Yeah, I’m learning new things about me. It’s wonderful.
Victoria Volk 30:10
Yeah, so I think it’s just like, how can you possibly, it is there’s so much responsibility. First of all, I think that we have when we’re in the military when you wear the uniform, and there’s a different culture there for sure. Yeah. Um, how has this impacted you? Do you feel as a parent?
Ruthie Bowles 30:34
So, this, uh, my experiences, to be honest, any time and I mean, it’s not that anybody has a way of knowing that anytime somebody says that it’s easier to raise boys than it is to raise girls. Anytime somebody says that. I like whether I see it on Facebook, somebody says it out loud. I always reflect on my experiences. I don’t want to say that it’s like a trigger. Exactly. Because I don’t, at least not anymore. emotionally. I don’t like spiral necessarily. But I do. I am bit more vocal about it now. But I was a girl, right young woman who was sexually assaulted twice, I was sexually assaulted by two young men. I have three boys. And it was like, oh, you finally got your girl, you’re gonna have to watch out for her. And it’s like, that’s true. Like, you know, people talk about girls, you know, getting pregnant, but they get pregnant because they have sex with boys. You know? And it’s like, oh, if your girl goes out like what if something happens to her. More than likely if something happens to her and it’s of a sexual nature, it’s going to be by a boy. Boys are not easier to raise than girls. As much as I don’t want my daughter to go out and have something bad happened to her, I do not want my son’s to go out and be the bad thing that happens to somebody else’s daughter and so that is something that I always think about any time that comes up like Oh your boy mom, or at least when I was just just a boy mom, it was so easy. I always think of that and anybody who has sons like I think that should be a concern. You have to have those conversations with your children no matter their gender, or what they identify as because if it’s not openly stated, then they’re not going to know their options. Right? Like if something happens at a high school party or college or something and nothing was ever openly stated like hey, if this happens to you, this is what we’re going to go do and you know, we’ll talk about options after that but we at least want to make sure you go to the doctor and you know here are some warning signs that maybe somebody is following you or or anything like or talk to like so in my case it would be talking to for sure to my son’s and make sure like, Hey, don’t let peer pressure allow you to take advantage of somebody like that’s not okay, in fact, I better see you keep your friends from trying to take advantage of that person as well. Like it’s talking about the entire scenario, not just as if they have the potential for being a victim but also if they have the potential for being a perpetrator and what that looks like because as a culture, you know a dude and I’m you know, I’m using this as a stereotypical setup, because anybody can be sexually assaulted. But especially in the military, a dude, you know, hooking up with a girl who’s had too much to drink. That’s a high five moment, right?
Victoria Volk 33:20
College too, especially, right?
Ruthie Bowles 33:23
Yeah, notch on the bedpost, good for you, you got game, you know, ladies, man, that’s what that is. That’s how they see it. That’s how they’re taught to see it, it’s a display of their masculinity, when Instead, it should be viewed as, hey, you’re a perpetrator, you’re taking advantage of this person. That’s how they need to be taught. And so that is what I feel is my responsibility as a parent is to do that for my children not to talk to them, just as if they only have the potential to be victims. We’re human, there’s a duality in us for great good or for great evil and it’s my job. As a parent I feel to prepare my children for either to prepare them for the the fact that they may be in a position one day where no, they weren’t like following, you know, maybe some stranger from a bar or something. Maybe this is somebody that they go to class with or work with. So no, you weren’t like stalking them down the street and hiding in the shadows. But that is not what the vast majority of sexual assault perpetrators look like. They don’t look like somebody creeping in the shadows, they look like someone you know. Now we have to be more open and talking about that, especially as individuals in terms we have the power to either, you know, be somebody who’s standing steps up for people who are in a vulnerable position, or somebody who takes advantage of people in those vulnerable positions. So as a parent, it’s something I think about a lot, especially as I look at my kids and my oldest one is nine and my youngest one, she’s two and a half. And it’s something I think about a lot because I want to share my experiences with them not in such a way that it like scars them necessarily, but I often hold myself up as Hey, this could happen. And if you learn something from my story whether you know me or you’re my child and it’s intimate or, or you’re my brother or my sister because I have five siblings, whether whoever you are, if you take something from the story, then great. And that’s why I try so hard to openly share it. So even with my kids, it’s being very open about okay. She said she’d like so Evelyn, that’s my daughter. Sometimes she doesn’t want a hug. And the boys get sad. They’re like, Oh, I’m sad that she was 100 mins like, Okay, well give her a few minutes, you know, maybe you can ask her again. But she said no, right now. So you need to leave it alone. He’s like, Yeah, she gave me a hug a few minutes ago. I was okay, but she doesn’t want to give you a hug right now. So you need to leave her alone. And then like, usually, like 30 seconds later, I was like, Huh, you know, but you can’t force her. And it’s even to the same among the boys. Even when they’re playing. It’s like okay, well, you know, Cameron says he doesn’t want to play anymore right now. You can’t just keep roughhousing with him and he doesn’t want to play anymore. He said not to touch him anymore. But we were just playing. I don’t care. He said he doesn’t want play anymore.
Victoria Volk 36:00
No, is no.
Ruthie Bowles 36:01
No is no.
Victoria Volk 36:02
And if we don’t I absolutely I love that this came up because when you don’t instill that in your child when they’re young that knows no, and when I say no, it deserves to be respected.
Ruthie Bowles 36:15
Yeah.
Victoria Volk 36:16
That someone will stick up for me if someone isn’t listening, right? Well, he might advocate for me How do you ever learn to say no when you’re 16, 24, 35 whatever it is, right?
Ruthie Bowles 36:29
Whatever age, yeah. And that’s the big thing. And yeah, we just we have to make okay getting that consent like that is we need to make getting consent attractive.
Victoria Volk 36:40
Yep. I agree.
Ruthie Bowles 36:41
We’ll like having those types of discussions like and it’s all I think it’s probably a larger conversation, but it’s all shrouded in the general sense of shame we have regarding animals anything of a sexual nature right so if the very act itself even when it’s among consenting adults is shrouded in even a layer of shame. How like anything that comes after that just has additional shame. Like even and even for myself you know being you know in a relationship I’m married my experiences made it really hard to talk about you know, certain things you know, whatever it was that I was you know, interested in things that I like things that I didn’t like it made it hard to, to even even on the emotional side of the relationship to be comfortable with any type of confrontation, any type of confrontation, because if I like then I after the first time I went through this phase where it was like well if I don’t say no, then you can’t take it from me. Right whatever it is. If I don’t say no, you’re not taking it from me. But I mean if I if I give my consent 100% of the time even if I technically don’t want to I mean that that was an internal battle that I had to learn how to fight because I was mostly on my own but yeah, we have to make getting consent and having those types of conversations and incredibly attractive thing and as my kids get older it’ll be something that we talk about because you know just because you know our sexual activities are you know, private. I want to try and be as clear as possible in terms of the fact that it should not have any shame attached to it like we like we all go to the bathroom Yes, we shut the door, but is what you’re doing in there shameful. No, but we shut the door. And I just I want that to be a more clear distinction like just because I’m shutting the door doesn’t mean that it should be I should be embarrassed. And that’s something else I’m hoping to teach my kids as we have you know, those types of conversations around you know, anything related to sex.
Victoria Volk 38:43
I love that analogy. Thank you for sharing that.
Ruthie Bowles 38:45
You’re welcome.
Victoria Volk 38:46
And my son is 15 and then I have a 14 year old and almost 12 year old so yeah, I’m starting to navigate the teen years and I just remember how hard it is you know you just you start to remember and think back to when you’re a teenager and just how difficult those waters are to navigate and and again to like with my son it’s it’s showing him no this is not how you talk about girls. This is not how you refer to other two females or things like that, you know, having that conversation of of just respect. How do you show respect? Like what does respect look like towards the opposite sex and yeah, I think that’s huge too. I mean, it really comes down to respect.
Ruthie Bowles 39:37
Yeah, for sure. And just kind of normalizing it you know, and being very clear so you know, I mean, we’re careful even about like what the kids watch like if we’re not around and stuff like that, because there’s a lot that slid in under the radar. I realized now in terms of you know what I saw on TV or heard on the radio when I was growing up a lot slid under the radar. A lot And you know, so we have to, we have to keep an eye on that. I mean in nothing, no system, no person is perfect. We can’t it’s not this not about trying to keep them in a bubble necessarily, but my biggest thing is that if something happens, I want my kids to feel as if they can come back to me, if they’re in a situation, I want them to have heard me say how important consent is so many times that they can’t help but think about it in any situation that they’re in where it comes up. And, you know, and that’s, that’s, you know, that’s what I feel like I can be for my family, for my friends from my network is just, you know, oh, I don’t know anybody that this has happened to, it’s like, well, no, no, you know, me, you know, me and I can tell you with 1,000% certainty is mathematically improbable or impossible is that is that, you know, people, they’re just not comfortable sharing with you, but you know, them, and they are probably way closer than you think they are. They are probably way closer than you think they are. They could be your aunts; they could be your mom. It could be your dad or your grandparents your uncle’s like, it could be anybody. But because of that shame, they haven’t shared with you. And, and symptoms of what we go through pop up so far after. That was something I did want to say because I was so surprised when it came up. But when I became a federal contractor, I started experiencing anxiety any time I was alone with a service member, who was a man or identified as a man, who was, you know, had a man appearance, and they were in uniform, I started experiencing severe anxiety, if I ended up alone with them. And you’re thinking like, well, how would you end up alone with them, the place I used to work has a ton of elevators. And you might be surprised or not at the number of times, you would end up in an elevator with just two people, especially when you know traffic isn’t high. And if it wasn’t if it wasn’t just me and one other person who was me and like, you know, if it was like two soldiers or Airmen in the sailor or something, and they were in the elevator, I would have to get off the elevator. I could not stay in the elevator with them. Now it was fine for service members that I’d gotten to know that were maybe like that I worked with every day, I did not experience that anxiety with them. But I still felt a low-grade anxiety, you know, in terms of like being alone with them. But I think it happened because I no longer had what I considered my shield, which was my uniform with my name and rank on it. Because I was a staff sergeant when I got out, and I had cultivated this persona that was pretty rough shot and you know, would completely like snap on you before asking questions like don’t mess with her, she will kick in your teeth type of personality. And I cultivated on purpose because you don’t mess with the person who you think is gonna kick you in the face. No, wait, I cultivated that personality on purpose and my uniform. And I didn’t realize how much how much I had used my uniform as a shield. But I did. And so when I went back to working in an environment with servicemembers, and I was in civilian clothes, I felt like and I often feel this way about my civilian clothes, particularly if I’m on when when we went to events if I was on my way home from an evening event, and I was in the dark when I was at work and you know, ended up in those situations. My civilian clothes felt like a trap. They felt like some sort of flag that said I was prey. And that’s something I’ve had to wrestle with, especially now as an entrepreneur and I would attend events in the evening, I would ask, you know, people to walk me to my car, because I was like I’m wearing a dress right now, which seemed like a really good idea. But now it just feels like it’s like hey, come get me. Here I am. And it saddens me to hear that but that is a new development as my life has changed. And my experience color my experiences color my perception of of, you know, my day to day, because I never used to feel that way when I was dressed in civilian clothes when I was a service member. But now that I civilian clothes, or what I wear all the time, that is something that I you know, I started going through and so being an entrepreneur now I don’t really have to worry about running into service members. But that is something I reflect on as in my time as a federal contractor like I being in an elevator with a service member was something I could not tolerate if I did not know them. And there were two parts of me one side of my brain is like that’s pretty horrible, that there’s a part of you that just assumes that this person could attack you. There’s like That’s true, but I also didn’t think the two people who actually did attack me would know, so I just get off the elevator. And I, I’m not sure how else things will pop up. But, you know, I’m actually going through the process right now of filing a VA claim. So, we will see in terms of how they’re able to evaluate my PTSD and anxiety and things, what will come from that. And because this is a newer experience for me, I’ve never gone through the VA claims process before. I am not as positive like I’m not experiencing as much positive energy regarding it. Because with this specific occurrence, and the subsequent things that have happened, since I’ve been taught over and over that the system is not to be relied on the system is not to be trusted. And so while I want this to work out, I want the VA to look at me. And I guess that’s the problem is I want the VA to look at me and acknowledge you went through these things. And they were horrible, and you’re suffering as a result of these things. And so we will be able to, you know, give you these benefits, whatever they are. The fear, of course, is that it’ll be just like, what happened to 19 year old me? And it will be, yeah, no, that’s not bad enough.
Victoria Volk 46:19
Like a victimization again?
Ruthie Bowles 46:21
Right. Like or did that even happen? Like did it happen the way that you remember it. Because this this here? This doesn’t sound very bad at all.
Victoria Volk 46:29
Well, look how much time has passed?
Ruthie Bowles 46:32
Yeah, yeah, like I got out in 2015. So it’s like, well, why didn’t you file then? Even though there’s no statute of limitations on when you can file your VA claim? FYI. So yeah, so it’s just so we’ll see what happens. But my my fear now is that of course, the the process will dig deep into my case, my reported case, at least, and come up with nothing, right? Like, I never saw the SARC person again, I never heard from CIT. There was a letter of reprimand, which probably got lost somewhere, I am afraid that they will have nothing to find.
Victoria Volk 47:05
I thought of a question. And I actually thought of it too, as I watched that ABC special but being in the military, I don’t even know the answer to this. Maybe you do. But what would have stopped you from reporting him as like on the civilian side? Like, could you it not have been? Like, is there something to it that the military is almost like its own institution in that way, when it comes to criminal acts? Like why is it that you couldn’t have reported the first incident to your local police department versus going through the military chain?
Ruthie Bowles 47:43
I think the military ends up with jurisdiction, I think, at least that’s the way it’s kind of always that I’ve always understood it. And that could be accidental or purposeful, misunderstanding that was, you know, cultivated during my time in, but it’s my understanding, because we have our own, technically, we have our own, you know, law type structure, that unless you go out and do something like, like a soldier who’s out there, you know, drinking and driving, yeah, they’re getting arrested. They’re getting arrested. And I mean, it’s incredibly likely, though, that if a chain of command is like, hey, police department, we’re actually going to give them to the MPs. And I know that most civilians feel like our military, police, and structure and our law and stuff is actually more harsh than there. So, they probably happily hand them over. But you know, if you’re out on the town, and you’re speeding, you will get a regular person ticket, you know, but if you’re on base, you will get a ticket from the police on base. So I think that if what I had gone through had been perpetrated by civilians that probably would have exclusive like that would have immediately been under the civilian police, because yes, I’m a soldier, but the perpetrator, right is, and then vice versa, if the perpetrator is military, and the victim, the survivor is civilian, then that again, that again, probably becomes a question of jurisdiction. But the civilian police would certainly be involved, whether they work things out, you know, with the military side or not, but we were both service members. Now again, I could be wrong. But one of the things I teach you though, is like that faith in the military, that faith in the system, filing some type of complaint or report to the local PD, never even crossed my mind. And once everything, you know, it was over, I just, I was tired. I was tired, and I was let down and I wanted to forget it as much as was possible. But it’s not it’s not possible. There are days I go without thinking about it. That’s true now, but I’m never going to forget it. It’s never not going to happen. impact on me, the one thing I can say is that as time goes on, I’ve been changing the type of impact that it has on me. So, it does not damage me to talk about it with you. It is not damaged me to talk about it with anybody, I may feel a little withdrawn later. So, I may curl up with like a book or something, just to kind of emotionally unplug a little bit. But when I was still serving, and we had our quarterly sexual harassment and assault training, like the programs that they would put us through in terms of like the the training, I would be emotionally upset for like a day or two, I would, I would, I would warn my husband ahead of time, I’d be like, hey, we’re doing sharp training today. And he’s like, okay, okay, and he would know, I would come home, like I just I would need to eat, I would not want to talk because I would just get so angry. I get so angry at those on every slide that went by, they would do this. And I’m like, yeah, so nobody can help us Screw you, too, you know. So it just made me so mad sitting through those trainings. Like I just, I can’t like I can’t believe you guys made me sit through this, because you’re just lying. Like, I would just get so mad. And I was very angry about it and hurt. And that doesn’t happen anymore. And I think it’s because I’ve started to, I started to view my experience not as something, I don’t view it as something that happened to me anymore. So much as I view it as something that I can use to help other people just in the telling of it. And once I started viewing it that way, and it’s now a teaching tool, as horrible as it was. It’s a teaching tool now. And so it hurts me, it doesn’t hurt me at all, to share it. And then I just need some time to kind of like emotionally recharge.
Victoria Volk 51:42
What is one thing that you found most unhelpful to you, as you’re going through, as it as it really kind of came to a head in your life? Both of those experiences?
Ruthie Bowles 51:56
The thing that was definitely the most unhelpful was trying to figure out what I could have done differently. I’m a big believer in, you know, taking ownership and responsibility for things. And so, I was raised that way, but I was applying it wrong. I was trying to figure out how I could have changed what happened to me not including, in my analysis, that I had absolutely no control over their choices. I had no control over them, what they thought what they felt what they decided to do, I had no control over that. And I kept plaguing myself with that question. The same question that other people well, what were you wearing? And all these things, right? Like, what could you have done to keep yourself from being assaulted? Like, what could I have done? Especially the second time because it was like, I just I just let an F bomb go. I was about to drop one. But it was like, What the heck, like a second time Really? Like, what are you doing? What are you doing that it would happen to you a second time those types of questions were incredibly unhelpful, they did a lot of damage as well, because it just mentally turns and turns and turns? I had no control over them. And what they chose to do, I only had control over me. So as a result, like those experiences definitely influenced choices I made after, right. But those are the only things that I could control. And then you know, I had to be a little careful of going too far to the left in terms of reacting too far left or right in terms of reacting as a result of that. And that was you know, that was another struggle that I had as I grew older and was able to view those experiences in a different light.
Victoria Volk 53:50
And help that shame fade away with more empowerment, right?
Ruthie Bowles 53:55
Yes, yes.
Victoria Volk 53:56
What is one tip that you would give someone listening today who has been sexually assaulted in military or otherwise?
Ruthie Bowles 54:05
So, I know that it’s not necessarily for everybody in terms of the way that I’ve shared my story. But I did not start out sharing my story in interviews and things like that. I started out, sharing just the one sentence with a friend, my best friend who was with me the day that I went and saw that movie. And I told her, I was like, you know, that person? She’s like, yeah, so he raped me. And that was all I shared. At first, it was just the one sentence of course, the other thing that you can control in that instance, is that you want to be careful about who you share it with. Because what you want is somebody who is open to listen and receive your story and not somebody who’s immediately going to interview and quiz you. Like I think after I shared it with you the first time, we just had a cup of tea you know, because that’s just the way We were, but they’re even like I said, like it’s not it’s not about getting on and interviews and things like that like that is the way that I’ve chosen to use my story. But if you can share it with somebody and receive maybe some of the compassion that you haven’t been able to extend to yourself. That was something that helped me a lot initially, because I felt like I was able to tell somebody, and unlike the army, and unlike that guy’s friends and stuff, that was somebody who completely validated what I had experienced. And I felt safe and comfortable. And that like being able to do that is probably a huge reason why I’m able to be vulnerable at all, versus, you know, completely shutting down and not being able to even have healthy relationships.
Victoria Volk 55:54
Grief recovery, we call those special people in our lives a heart with ears.
Ruthie Bowles 55:58
Oh, that’s amazing.
Victoria Volk 55:59
Yeah, someone who won’t criticize, analyze, or judge and can just sit with you. Yeah, I love that, that you said that you just had a cup of tea. I love that, that she was there for you, for you in that time. So, ways that others supported you that you found most helpful. You just kind of mentioned, you know, your friend that just sat with you. What are other things that you can think of to share that might be helpful? You know, I? How about your husband, your husband supported you and your immediate family? How about that?
Ruthie Bowles 56:34
So, in terms of my husband, that is actually that was a close one. Because after the second time, the second assault, you know, I was home, and he asked me to marry him. We were just dating at the time. And he asked me to marry him. And I said, yes. But that second time was so new, and there was a lot just kind of shrouded in mystery. And I hadn’t told him because I was afraid. Because being in the culture, I felt like it was very easy for him to either see it my way, or be like, no, you cheated on me. Like there’s alcohol involved and whatever. And he demonstrated the power that somebody else could have if they have enough knowledge to help you. Because we, we almost broke up. Like after he asked me to marry him. We almost broke up because of the way that I was behaving and stuff. He was positive. He was like, you’re not, you’re not on board with this the way that I’m on board with this. Something’s going on. There’s something you’re not telling me. And I’m like, no, of course, I’m lying. Like, no, you There’s nothing I’m keeping from you. It’s fine. And he’s like, why are you acting like this? And I’m like, it’s fine. That was not fine. And I think he was probably like, a hair’s breadth away from being like, look, we’re not, we’re not getting married. We’re not together, like, I don’t know what you’re doing. But I can’t do this anymore. And we were in a hotel room, because we were in Virginia visiting with my grandparents, we were sitting in bed, he had gone through my phone and found something I can’t remember. And he’s like, what is going on? And I sat there, and I just knew I was like, if I say that nothing’s happening, and everything’s fine. One more time, he’s gonna leave am I okay with him leaving. And I just I was not okay with that. And so, I just I it was a short synopsis. Very short, just told him you know, the day that we got back from Afghanistan, one of the soldiers in the barracks he came into my room after I’d had a couple of wine coolers that I weigh overestimated my tolerance for being just freshly back from Afghanistan and he raped me and then I got up without another word and went into the shower because my skin was crawling and I came out and he was still just sitting on the bed looking devastated and then we just laid there for a while. And it was it was still hard after that right because I still had a lot of things you know to work through. And I mean, he’s four years older than me so I mean I was young and he was a little bit older but not that much older and I don’t think it really matters what age you are when somebody tells you something like that it’s still very shocking, but we were able to move on after that, you know, and he knew like what I didn’t like I didn’t give them the nitty gritty details or anything at that time because I wasn’t capable of sharing that yet but over time, I was able to just you know, kind of reveal everything and share it with him and and just explain everything that happened you know, he you know, because one of the things that happened was I got new friends, right as soon as we got back and we were long distance, he’s like, Who are these people? You know, and they were people I felt safe with this what it was and so that was part of it. And so yeah, so it’s just it was he was incredibly supportive and and you know, in terms of like our relationship he got really good at looking for when I was hiding my wants and needs. And he would push me and be like, no, come on, what do you really want here? Like what what he’s really like I can tell there’s something bothering you just go ahead and tell me like don’t he’s like I’ll if you want to leave it alone for right now we can leave it alone, and we’ll talk about it later. But we do you need to talk about it, you know, so you got good at seeing when I was hiding, because I got good at that. And that was just really important for our relationship and for our family. Because the depth of our relationship now is completely different and just deeper than it was, you know, in the beginning. And I think that that is something that I needed, right? Like I have one person in the whole world that I can be that deep with. And I could be that vulnerable with to share every detail and everything. And that was something that I needed, that I think unconsciously, I didn’t even realize it but I thought that I was never going to be able to have.
Victoria Volk 1:01:02
So, my question to now is when you weren’t talking about it? What were some of the characteristics? So let’s say you’re in a friendship, let’s say I have a friend or my friend group or whatever. And what are some characteristics of someone who has been assaulted? Like what are some characteristics that you would think someone would exhibit who has been sexually assaulted that someone like, you know, if you’re not feeling like talking about it, sometimes you just want someone to ask you what’s wrong, or you know what’s going on or?
Ruthie Bowles 1:01:36
So, some people think, like, so one of the big ones, especially when I after the first one, and I was so much younger, you know, it’s 1920 ish 1819 was when it happened. And so, it rippled through my early 20s. And I arguably the second one happened still in my early 20s. So just was not a very good late teens, early 20s. For me, so a lot of people think that if you are sexually assaulted, then you would not want to have sex at all anymore. Right? And that is actually not necessarily true for everyone. For myself, at least after that happened, and there was probably like a refractory period where I was just like, this is all overwhelming. I don’t want to, like everybody get away from me. Once I got to the new duty station. I, I was at that duty station for like six months. And I think I must have had like, I mean, for me, it was a lot. But it was probably like, five guys that I dated in sequential order, not concurrently, but like I dated. And because we were dating, like, as soon as they were like, yeah, you want to go to Home Base. It was I was in that position where I was like, well, if I say yes, then they can’t take it. So, I said Yes, right. I think that was something my roommate picked up on was kind of like, hey, not judging Exactly. But your patterns of behavior are a bit different than they used to be, like, the whole time I was at the language school, which was like a year, I was with my boyfriend long distance, and then that one guy, and then we get to a new base, and I’m running through them, like water. So, it’s very serious change in behavior. And the reason why, like I said was if I if I’m not saying no, then you can’t take it. And then it also kind of having them as like, you know, dating them. And then you know, being boyfriends or whatever, it kind of helped protect me in terms of I could always say, well, I have a boyfriend, I have a boyfriend, instead of saying, actually I just don’t like you, and then having somebody get offended and then you know, attack me or something later changes in behavior, probably a pretty big one. And then to be honest gaslighting, like, if you’re sensing that there’s a change in behavior, or a change in attitude or something with somebody, and they’re insisting that you’re crazy for it. There’s probably something going on, because I was good at that, too. I mean, I had a very horrible, good teacher. But you know, people would be like, Oh, you’re acting really different. Are you okay? And I’m like, I’m fine. You’ve been acting different though. You just completely turn it around, like, or maybe not even gaslighting, but you bring up them and then they ask you about something about you like maybe last week you were complaining about your boyfriend or your girlfriend, and then you ask about them. And they’re like, no, yeah, I’m totally fine. But what was going on with, you know, you and Stacey or you know, you and john, like what happened? And then now all of a sudden, you’re like, oh, yeah, that happened. And you’re completely distracted now. So they become really good at misdirection. And so, if you are worried about somebody, you’re going to have to be gentle, but focused, you’re gonna have to be gentle, but focus, and you’re also going to have to realize that it may take you more than one try, because that’s the other thing like are you just just testing me? Like, are you just trying or like, are you in it to win it? Are you actually in this with me? Are you ready to hear what it is? That I could tell you if I choose to? Now if you’re just like, oh, are you okay? And then you believe me when I say that I’m fine. Okay, well, you obviously weren’t ready to hear it. But I mean, in a way, that’s kind of what happened with my husband when we were engaged, right? Like he kept insisting something was wrong. And I was like, No, you’re not ready for this, you’re not ready for this. And so I just kept insisting, and he kept trying, and he kept trying, and he kept trying, and then it just reached a point where I was not okay with him walking away, because he had tried so many times. And that, you know, it was just that I was afraid of telling him. So, it got to a point where I was positive, he was gonna walk away. Either he was gonna walk away, because I didn’t tell him, or he was gonna walk away, because he didn’t believe man. In such case, I probably shouldn’t be with him, or he was going to hear what I had to say. And he was going to believe me. So, in those three scenarios, two of them, he was walking away anyway. So at that point, I’d reached a point where I just felt like I didn’t really have much left to lose in terms of him and that our relationship, but that’s, that’s the big thing, you want to be gentle, but you want to be focused, because your first attempts at trying to get them to confide in you will probably fail, they will probably fail unless you catch them at just the right moment. But if they’ve had time to kind of fortify and that shame to kind of, you know, weave into their barriers and things, it’s probably going to take you more than one one try. And it’s not a reflection on how much they like you or love you or anything like that. But you are literally wrestling with this monster, and you just can’t do anything else. Like I don’t have, I don’t have the space to trust you right now. Because I am wrestling with this inside of me. And you know, you’re going to have to knock on this door more than once. Because I’m fighting so hard here. And I’m exhausted. And you know, the first few times that you try, I just can’t open that door, I can’t do it. Because how do I know you’re not going to come inside and transform into another monster that I have to deal with? I have to now then I have to wrestle with the assault and your rejection, you know, and you saying that it was my fault, or I could have worn something else or not gone out that late that I have to wrestle with both of those things. So that’s why I think sometimes it takes more than one try. Like you would think if you’ve never gone through anything traumatic like that, that’s so tied up in the shame as well. You would think Well, why don’t you just tell me you tell me everything. It’s like, well, I’ve never had anything like this to tell you before. So, you got to be gentle, you got to be focused, and you just got to be in it for the long haul. Because I’m telling you is definitely not like that might be one of the hardest things that you are able to do initially in terms of getting them to confide in you. But the battle, you know, isn’t over for that person.
Victoria Volk 1:07:49
That’s grief that never goes away. It just changes.
Ruthie Bowles 1:07:51
Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:07:52
And so and and with Grievers, you know, just this is what we say to like, if you want to be a heart with ears, you just show your support. Let them know you’re there. And when they’re ready. You’ll know they’ll let you know, right?
Ruthie Bowles 1:08:11
Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:08:12
Thank you so much, Ruthie, is there anything else that you would like to share today?
Ruthie Bowles 1:08:17
I just want to say thank you for, you know, building the platform that you’ve built. The topics that you touch on that you dive deep on here are not topics that people consider for everyday consumption. But but they are topics that some that somebody somewhere is going through every day, you know, and, you know, this is one piece of the story that I’ve shared. But we all go through a variety of different things. And this experience does not define my identity by any stretch of the imagination. But it does help so much to share. And I know that you’re helping a lot of people by addressing these topics that people are like, Oh, that’s not polite conversation, or that’s too heavy. It’s like okay, well this is something that we’re walking around with every day you are surrounded by people who have things that are too heavy every day. So just thank you so much for opening the floor for you know these types of conversations.
Victoria Volk 1:09:25
Thank you for sharing that with me, means a lot. Yeah, my why’s is pretty big for this podcast, so but it’s because of beautiful souls like you who are willing to share your story and I’m just being a heart with ears. and hoping that the messages that the hurting hearts share with others bring hope. There is hope there’s hope to have a beautiful life of a beautiful marriage, children, all the good things that life can give us right?
Ruthie Bowles 1:09:56
Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 1:09:57
Thank you so much again, Ruthie. If people want Want to reach out to you? Where can they find you?
Ruthie Bowles 1:10:01
Looking me up on social media is probably a good place to start Ruthie Bowles, in terms of what I do professionally, defythestatus quo.com if you’re in search of any personal branding and marketing information, but yeah, those are probably the best places to reach me. I am very easily found. A Google search will actually also help you find me very easily.
Victoria Volk 1:10:29
Awesome and I’ll put the information in the show notes as well. Thank you, listeners, for tuning into Ruthie story today. I hope it helps you or someone you love. Until next time, take care much love. And when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Suicide |
Quandell Wright | The Scars of Abuse, Poverty, and Shame
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
The odds were stacked from the get-go for Quandell. He grew up on the poor side of Detroit, Michigan, falling into gang activity, and, although he never used drugs, his life trajectory was greatly impacted by his decisions.
He became a father at age 16 and again at age 19. Having never dealt with his past experiences, after a 3rd suicide attempt, he found himself admitted into a psychiatric hospital. And that’s when his life turned around. He learned where he was responsible for everything in his life and discovered a new meaning of success for himself in the process.
Follow Quandell’s journey, through his own words, from self-hatred to self-love, from acceptance to forgiveness, and how he is creating ripples in other people’s lives through his clothing line and support of others in his community today. He shares tools that helped him and the one piece of advice that changed his whole perspective of his unforeseen future.
Quandell’s story starts pretty heavy, but the mood quickly lightens when he begins to talk about his son and the pride he feels for him. Quandell shares his perspective on parenting from growing up as a teen parent and the lessons he gleaned from his own experience.
The interview concludes with Quandell’s book recommendations for life and business, and one final piece of advice the world could definitely practice more of – even behind the masks.
I was reminded of a piece of advice shared in Netflix’s series “Cobra Kai” that Mr. Laruso received in the latest season: “Put good into the world and, good returns back to you.” (If you loved the “Karate Kid” movies, you’ll love this series! Even if you didn’t see them all, it doesn’t matter. It goes back to specific moments in previous movies and is wittingly written.)
Resources/Quandell’s Book Recommendations:
Connect with Quandell:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome to another podcast episode of grieving voices. Thank you so much for being here. My guest today is Quandell Wright. Welcome Quandell, thank you so much for being on my podcast today. Let us get to know you a bit. Share your story?
Quandell Wright 00:21
Yeah, so yeah, my name is Quandell Wright. I’m currently I’m a fashion designer from Detroit, Michigan. I have a brand by the name of William Pullman. I’m always at the home at the end but it’s William Palmer. I’m grubbing born and raised in Detroit Michigan. I lived in Georgia for a little bit with my mom maybe from the age of five and six we stayed in Columbus Georgia for maybe like a year and a half until my grandmother got sick, and we moved back so just a little bit back and forth. But yeah, right now like I’m I’m I’m 30 I’m married have children and every day life issues like everyone else so nothing too special. But um yeah you know I’m very hardworking dedicated to my my craft and my vision and everything like that. So, they’re just a little bit of behind the scenes of who I am just for briefly.
Victoria Volk 01:16
So how did the clothing line come to be?
Quandell Wright 01:19
When I was eight years old, I always loved clothes like fashion was like, it’s always been like
this big thing to me always love clothes. I love how you could just put it together and how people look at you and just admire your dress like clothes. It’s always been like everything to me. So, when I was eight, I started sketching clothes and shoes. It was mainly shoes I always design my own shoes all the time. And my mom I believe she still have some of those sketches hopefully. I think she did say she said I have some but um, that’s what I always wanted to be a fashion designer make clothes and my own clothes dress the best be the best. But unfortunately, growing up in Detroit, single parent home, you know, that wasn’t always the case that happened like the newest gear. And I got bullied a lot. But I always told myself like, you know, I’m gonna make my own clothes. And I told people I would make my own clothes. Of course, they laughed about it and things like that, but it actually happened. So, I officially started William Palmer 2017 I started off with 12 t shirts. With no sense of knowledge at all, like, I do. Just get out here. And people start to buy a little bit, but then I just kept coming back creative, killing them each time and 2018 I started I got into the store called elbasan elbasan His name is Bassam. He’s the owner elbasan one of the most popular coat designers in the Michigan region. He’s actually he’s located in Dearborn but the leather coats and the fur hood and man like everybody wanted to elbasan coming up in middle school high school like that was like the biggest thing to have like I need an owl whoo that’s what we called an owl and all of you had it we most definitely thought he was rich so everyone else was everything but he gave me some some some great advice about how to start and how he started and he gave me my first opportunity like the year later because I ended up getting better at what I was doing. And again, better like resources, my connections got better so he was like hey, I’m ready to get into the story ready to give it a shot? I was like what? And I was like yeah, let’s go and I ended up putting like 50 t shirts in this store and it’s sold out after like a couple months, but it did good in there. It did really good. And my name started to buzz a little bit but um yeah William Palmer my desk is named after my grandfather. My grandfather’s name is William right. But my grandfather was a designer himself he was a tailor he may suits for like the first and he made like suits for like the pastors and the First Lady’s and the churches and stuff like that in in Flint, Michigan. He also made accessories handmade accessories as well. So, like leather wallets, clutch purchase, and the big church hats and things like that. So that’s what he did on the side. And I found that out maybe last year, and it’s crazy. I didn’t know that the whole time. He never liked Oh, love it or anything like that. But my uncle ended up telling me like yeah, you know, your granddad this way. That’s what he did. And he used to make my clothes because he couldn’t afford the stuff I wanted. So, he made me my clothes. I knew I took it for granted. You know, he didn’t really like it as much and you I should have learned how to do it myself. But I just wasn’t into it. You know, I just took a different path. But he but he would have loved like what you’re doing right now. Oh my god, like he wouldn’t put his whole life savings into you know, like, this is it but polymer came from a friend of mines named Dorian. I was in class I was just sketching a very good handwriting. I was writing William right over and over again a different, like, cursive fonts. And he was like, What is that? I was like, Oh, it’s a clothing line. He was like looking right, almost like yeah, that was gonna be the original name for it. And he was like, Oh, that sounds cool. Oh, yeah, you know, and I was like, so how about William Palmer? And I’m like, oh that sounds nicer like that. That’s kind of you know, that hit the spot. And I was like, who was Palmer? Well Palmer is the last name of his grandfather. So I just took the first name of my grandfather and the last name his grandfather and put it to put the two together and so I came over William Palmer so yeah it’s a it’s a it’s a great beginning story but it’s a start it’s a start but that’s I was born and I just took it from there and just kept trying and trying to learn when I can to get where I want to go I’m still here today still moving forward. So yeah,
Victoria Volk 05:57
When that dream was first, when you first felt it when you were a child what happened in between?
Quandell Wright 06:04
Um, you know growing you know, growing up in Detroit or growing up in any urban area that’s less fortunate for property you know, you either do one or two things you just you stay at it. Or you just venture off into other things that you think that’s going to help you get to where you want to be in life so like growing up on the east side of Detroit where I’m from like the drug dealers like the dope dealers was like the celebrities you know they had you know the best cars and they had the jury they had the money and whatever clothes clothes you know, whatever we admired that’s what they had it was our rock stars that’s what we looked up to but it wasn’t no that was the motivation you know we didn’t have I had let me see we didn’t have like the LeBron James from the hood that made it that came back to show you how to do it and be a mentor like you didn’t have to so I grew up into I always had that dream but I feel like the area the hood is what took me under instead you know so I wanted to get money quicker I wanted to make fast money I wanted to be successful like right now and that was my plan so got into like maybe at the end of middle school I actually um we started with I started music don’t rap so that was cool. But it grew into some deeper and more darker than that so went into some It was called like SWAT that was our group name and when we got into like high school it became like a gang it was misinterpreted and now we got rifles and now we carry in guns and now we you know so now is now we live in the life that we are leaving Where do you want to live for real but me and this is what it is every day you know so we’ve seen things so we actually copying this stuff I was carrying a gun at the age of maybe like 15.
Victoria Volk 08:00
I have a question would you say that like you had this you guys as a group, did you develop this persona? and then you almost are this identity and I’m you almost,
Quandell Wright 08:10
I believe so because you know we surrounded by everybody that want to be this this tough guy right so everybody want to be a tough guy everybody want to make more money we’re not really in high school focusing on high school you know we like hey look we get money you know we got to do this I got big homies over here they you know I work for them you know I typically really didn’t dip and dive into like the drug dealers and stuff like that, but I was around friends that did. So, when you are around people like that, that’s the energy you bring onto yourself. So, I’m around the wrong crowd. I’m fighting in school every day. Almost every week we get into gang fights we fight in it wasn’t really safe to go anywhere because now not only that we get into fights in the hood it’s after school because now it’s boundaries. So if you live behind cateran high school that people that stayed in front Academy in high school they knew they weren’t allowed to come behind categorizable you know it was just like and he was supposed to go over there and make territory and they come over here and across the bridge this way seven mile seven mile bloods the red zone is just crazy is it’s a lot so age limit on me anything if you in something like that, you know like if you weren’t if you represent in the street, a neighborhood you grown enough to get whatever is coming for you. And that’s the life that we are you know, we live in and out. And yeah, I wasn’t I wasn’t I wouldn’t say like I don’t know how deep I was or how deep I was, but I knew I was a mess. You know, I was in situations I was supposed to be in because I wanted to leave home early. You know and things like that. Like my mom wasn’t like No, no. Okay, and I’m like that, like she worked hard. She had three boys. She did her best. While I was in a rush of being successful because I took her pain and made it my pain as well. I will like to get out here to make some money. Maybe I could rap. Maybe we can use If we could do this, I can take care of my house so I’m gonna take care of my mom and that’s fine with that. But it was just very misunderstood and that’s what led up to like a lot of more other things like having kids and early childhood be growing which is a domino effect of the wrong term in my life we’ve just been going into spirals until I was able to realize and take accountability for my actions and forgive myself and start off fresh You know, I think that’s most important but yeah, you know, when you’re dealing with something like that it’s kind of hard to pinpoint the problem I don’t want to blame the system I don’t really I don’t really know I just know is that you know growing up in poverty you always just trying to find a quick way out and you don’t have the guidance what the right mentors around you want to take the wrong you want to take the wrong route every time because you’re just thinking maybe this is real quick I can just make this real quick and be done with it but you don’t never end that way. And never does he just get yourself deeper and deeper and deeper into situations that you can’t get out of. And I believe that’s what’s going on and a lot of like neighborhoods this you know that’s in property they don’t have you know, like you could come here now I’m quite sure you have urban neighborhoods like you can see like there’s no improvements there’s no there’s nobody successful as going back and really trying to create community rehab but how can we start with the kids Well, how can we start this we need to know this rehab for everyone in the community, this province like there’s none of that none of that is happening and I feel like that’s the problem that’s one of the main issues and I think cycling never stopped to somebody like step up and actually like get into the mix and really do it you know stop being apologetic about anything really get in there and just really see what’s going on you know why LeBron James like you know building that school I feel like he was like one of the the people that should go back to where he came from he got into the middle of it like yo I can build this I can create jobs for parents I can create you know transportation for the kids so there’s no excuses I got mentorship programs, scholarships, you know, so he found a way to try to like break that cycle of feeling like there’s no hope in areas because they feel like there’s no hope I can take that now like I talked to young kids all the time and he’s like, Man, this is what I do is no nobody comes to look out for us. I don’t know what to do and they really don’t know what to do so yeah.
Victoria Volk 12:31
I just got goosebumps. Is that like one of your huge motivators now in to get your clothing line really going is to be able to give back in that way?
Quandell Wright 12:42
Yeah, that is it is um you know, I talked to Rena you know, and when I told her like, just a kid I always felt I know like I knew like I know my mom like I knew she always like loved me and things like that. But I believe her raising boys she felt like she had to be like tough all the time. You know like like this because you don’t really know like you don’t have the father the father around to help out to be the father. So when single mothers especially raising boys, you have to be the father and a mother because you got to be confident and you got to be tough and the older we get you got to be more tougher and but the comfort level kind of dies down because you like he got it you know you just don’t this all day like he just got to get he got to get it and when I was eight my mom where I was, I was filling I wasn’t feeling like loved always felt like the black sheep always felt man Oh, I always felt alone or whatever the case might be. So I was drawing pictures of like me can like committing my own suicide I was in fourth grade and my teacher was concerned and she gave the pictures to my mom and my mom you know she was she was angry she was upset she was crying she didn’t understand but she was like more you know like more upset like and I think that’s because you know adults feel like like hey you know I’m paying all the bills I should be the press you a child you have no reason to be feeling this way you know like it wasn’t on purpose but I think that’s the that’s the message that’s the feeling that they give off and I kept going I kept I kept I kept attacking myself so getting bullied at school not feeling I’m mn school kids are like kids aren’t mean you know so so filling them always fill in attack. I’m not having the best I think I wanted to wear like the best clothes I wouldn’t get bullied you know, so I wouldn’t get talked about things like that I was always getting talked about but I always felt like I wasn’t like the best looking guy around either. Like always was like, self conscious. Like I’m like I hate it Hi look. I always wish I was like more handsome or you know, like up to like I was maybe like Oh man, maybe like a year ago I felt like that I’m 30 years old they’ll take a long time to actually accept yourself and ask you but you know what I really do love myself has nothing to do with how I look and I’m shaped and I gotta embrace that and a lot of people have a hard time embracing that feeling that way so I had a hard time with that along feeling that way and not feeling loved not knowing how to love I think they’re mad at my dad in a way I felt like I never was mad at them because I used to live with my dad being around because always is wrong kids where they have stories with a dad has been around so I didn’t want to be left out so I used to lie like my dad you know, but my dad was he wasn’t around and I don’t blame him he had his reasons you know everybody have a reason I don’t you know, but I don’t blame him I love him I be best for instance like right now that’s like that’s my buddy that’s my guy it just mixed emotions like I don’t know if I’m angry so he would just in and out he wasn’t he just come up to my school looking through like the door like the window and he said he used to do that just because he wanted to know like if I was here like he just wanted to see you know he but everywhere removed my dad will follow just trying to figure this out. And I remember I’m gonna get back to the story this suicidal stuff and all that I remember my dad he worked for the water department here and he was fixing on the manhole in our alley. And he called my name right here and I came to the gate I didn’t I never liked seen this guy before. I was like he gave me like $5 just so I ran into the house my mind his bald head guy gave me $5 working in the backyard you know so she lives that’s your bad you know and um, when she came out he was gone but he was just like this Phantom like this he’s here to he’s not he’s here and he’s not so when I was like 14 by my brother around because I have a brother that’s two weeks old and so of course you know, he had a he was cheating with my mom and my mom was way younger. She was younger she was underage she was older so that was probably like some of the reasons to he didn’t really want to be around he didn’t get it but I have a brother that’s two weeks older than me and I’ve met him the first time when I was like 13 or 14 years so that was kind of cool. But I went over there a few times and then he got the feeling again like I wasn’t here so then I was out of the picture again so I’m dealing with like glass I’m dealing with you know I got the stepdad at the house like he is terrible like he’s just like he’s aggressive he’s you know he wouldn’t be for everything and he’s like very old school because he’s Oh like this guy’s older way older than my mom so just keep your shirts tucked in and yes you know it would just so many rules get off my grass down on my tree everything was is like from the lawn to the tree to the concrete this around the house was he is it you know you getting slapped you getting popped you getting whooped for every little thing you know and it it wasn’t never no sit down and talk you know it wasn’t no talk he was always yelling and and that’s abuse a lot of parents don’t understand that either. That’s verbal abuse like I’m a human to some dealing with that so let’s just come back to that so at that time, my stuff that was in the house with like the suicidal attempts and things like that I didn’t feel like the love from him all the way either you know, I just felt like he was just there for my mom and I just thought he was just there just to me with around somebody and just wanted to be in control everything and images. I just felt like it wasn’t equal at all. So from that time until I got into my dog age, maybe like 1819 I tried to commit suicide again. Um, I started cutting on myself, so I still have my scars here. I don’t know if you’d like pricey but if I can see him, but I have scars all around like from here on Where’s that? Yeah, so this one and yeah, so I started off cutting and then I got immune to the pain so good to where it’s like Yo, when I’m ready to get ready, you know what I’m ready to do what I want it wants to be painful. And that’s what that is. That’s what they mean as well. And then I slip my neck here three times. I cut my jugular vein. Oh my gosh, yeah, um, so that was three times I felt like I was losing everything this is around the time like I think I had my second child It was 90 I my first kid at 16 and my second son and 19 but I just felt like everything was just falling apart from me, you know, and then I did that after that I tried to hate myself and my friend found me so he saved me. And the last the very last. The last attempt was I stabbed myself with a steak knife here. The scar is very small, but it’s right here and steak knife about this big so this much have you been through. I broke through the rails here and adopt this I was like literally maybe like one or two centimeters away that point. The point of the knife was like one or two centimeters away from my puppet heart and I woke up In the hospital I took a drive I was bleeding out and I fainted I woke up in hospital sent me to a secondary psychiatric hospital I was in there for like a week and a half or something like that. But I am a survivor of self destruction as a survivor of self hate not knowing how to love myself and everything like I was I’m a survivor of depression I am I’m not 100% I’m maybe like 75 steal it which is bad for me around that in that time frames of everything just going on this feeling like I’m not worth anything and you are your own enemy. A lot of people don’t understand that you could tell yourself the most meaning you will tell yourself the most hateful things about yourself that anybody else will in this world because you only know you leave and that’s what led to these act like not wanting to be here like I be I used to wake up in the morning looking at the ceiling I used to play shit I’m still here I used to be mad and I was here I used to be mad and I felt even more upset like I can’t even I can’t even fulfill what I want to like kill but like you know to off myself like I came to fulfill it the scar these are not no petty scars I had to get rush they had to like stop the bleeding from a juggler event like I was really trying to take myself out and every time I’m waking up I gotta do this again I go through this day again I don’t want to do this again. Well I can wake up here again um I was at my my lowest my lowest terrible bad very bad yeah so I know I’m everywhere with it but I really just want let your listeners maybe you know say going through what I went through and maybe this might help somebody but um I’m not going to talk about like all the bad stuff but I’m kind of like talking about I like like I started to hear the the healing process so the healing process started in the cigarettes hospital because we was having like these Amy’s like just to talk and get it off your chest and i was i was talking a lot I would just kind of like trying to like feel the vibe of everything and then I started like tell them about my story and most of it you know he like the guy was saying like you you’re not crazy. You know you want through where everybody else is going through in life You’re young you’ve got a lot of pressure on yourself. You just got to like just take it one day at a time. I think that was like the most simplest advice that anybody could have gave me at that moment take it one day at a time. Like Can you just imagine trying to put a whole week in one day maybe you will drive yourself crazy and I was like yo you like you right? And then I learned like music therapy so it was learn how to play the keyboard piano but that advice right there like just clicks on in my brain like dude like slow down because I had a fear of like getting too old and not being who I wanted to be I’m in my late 20s I’m trying to you know going through all this crazy stuff I got these kids baby Mamas and crazy job not making enough money because Child Support just wiping me out I have nowhere to go because at this point I just moved from Detroit a good friend so I just moved to FC to give me some time away from Detroit and you know it would just lie I felt like I had no friends I was homeless at a point in time I was sleeping in I was sleeping in a friend car all of a sudden he took the car so I was sleeping outside now I’m sleeping in the winter like it’s wintertime or sleeping you know like just really going through these phases of like nobody cares so they make you mad so now I’m mad at the World Of course I’m mad at the world I’m not letting nobody get into words out of a mouth plug off on them I’m not cooperating that work I can’t do my job right so I get fired I’m just like you know it’s just we’re just terrible you just like life is a roller coaster but that roller coaster I just felt like it just had so many spiral turns like it was a no straight away from me at all.
Victoria Volk 23:58
Would you agree that grief had its grip on you since you were just a kid?
Quandell Wright 24:04
I believe, I probably just like went through the grieving process maybe this year because as humans we very good at ignoring our demons we are reached by whatever I’d be better tomorrow I mean not facing that different real life we’re not facing it for real we not going like head on what are what are emotions we not talking to nobody because at a point you won’t you don’t really know who to talk to you know you don’t want to buy in a judge you because we very quickly by you my judgment you know you can’t trust nobody because people may people are water balloons they’ve gone bust open to tell all your business so you scared about that. We can’t afford therapy. You know I never even thought about therapy until this year but I’m like so expensive. I don’t even know. You know, like, and then I’m like Do they really listen for real because it’s just for the check like, I want to get a four hour but do I gotta I got I got 27 years. We’re for stuff to tell you, you know, but it’s, you know, like, you want me to break this off in sections, and then some notes may happen tomorrow, like, I gotta get this, you know, so it’s hard it is it’s hard. But I agree like this year, once I’ve started to, I started meditating, I got out of like, the religion aspect of things, I just got out a, I got a religion is a box to me, like I don’t, you know, I’m, I’m not stepping on nobody believes anything I love that people can go somewhere and release whatever they need to whoever they believe in is great. But to me, I felt like I just felt boxed in and then just seeing how everything was going, like, everything is so hypocritical with religion, and it was just too much I got out of religion, and I just became more free spirit. You know, just like, What’s the good for me like, I don’t want to be in this box, no more, I don’t really feel like this helping me at all. Because I’m praying, I’m doing things and it’s not working for me, I got to find something that works for me. And what worked for me was like meditation, being free minded. Um, no burning sage, buying crystals and you know, doing some great things and that actually started working for me. And then as I started to do research and re I had to, I had to change my mindset, I had to stop living in my past, I had to forgive whatever was going on in my past, I had to bless my past I have to just leave it alone, which I’m still doing to this day because it’s hard. But I had to bless my past and just let it be that and I have to learn I every day is a new page and this is a fresh page. It’s a fresh sentence. And you are in control of your tomorrow you’re not in control of yesterday yesterday you don’t even matter no more you can take bits and pieces from yesterday and try to incorporate it with with your present moment and your tomorrow but most of the time, and just start fresh. So I started to I started to apply that a lot into my daily routines is getting up meditating, looking in the mirror smiling because I had a real I used to hate smiling. I you know my teeth, I got gaps. I started embracing it like cuz I always wanted braces and everything. And the dentist was like, you actually have perfect teeth cut your teeth is not supposed to be close together. You have perfect teeth. I’m like, really? He’s like, Yeah, you got floss easier. And you have some like the cleanest teeth I’ve ever seen in my career because your teeth are spaced out. So you have room to really clean real good perspective, right? Yeah. Oh, sweet. I thought I had to fit in to the perfect you know, you get great your knee brace you like you know and then when you get braces, you got to remember you have to wear a retainer for the rest of your life and my wife was telling me the same thing as y’all want to do that and you’ll keep going go right back to what they weren’t so you wasted 5000 for what my area so I had to learn how to accept that like I love my smile. I love me. This is who I am so I’m starting to do this. I used to hate taking selfies like I could never get that perfect picture. I just take them all the time now like this is who I am. I can’t just I can’t die off and knowing being on my deathbed like I never enjoyed life because I was worried about how I look and what people thought about oh this sucks. I’m really gonna die like this. Like I can’t live like that. I want to live open and happy like this is what I look like and I don’t have I don’t look half bad I’m great. I’m fine I’m happy with them and I’m just living in my moment I’m living in my future and living in mind tomorrow and I started I started to do that a lot you know telling myself these things hold myself accountable because it’s not everybody fault it’s not the world fault it’s not the government fault it’s not my mom fault it’s not my dad fault This is my fault so what I let get into my mind and months into my mental and let destroy me in my spirit This is my fault I have to fix this because I have kids I can’t be around mophie around now can’t be feeling the way I used to feel I can’t keep having these thoughts I mean granted yeah I ran across thoughts of you know you know suicidal thoughts and stuff like that I feel like people that deal with depression you get better and better at self healing some days my life go right you kind of some days maybe like really off you know you might already this you know you get that but you got to jump right back into the loop. You know what? Nope, I know I want to think like that. I got I got tomorrow. I got tomorrow do better tomorrow. I got tomorrow, you know so that’s how that’s how I live. I live like that. I believe that’s fair. I believe that’s right. I believe that’s the only way you could actually like cope with yourself because I feel like we don’t we don’t take time for us. You know. We too busy trying to make everybody else happy. I think that’s our problem.
Victoria Volk 30:03
Does it take waking up in a hospital bed after you try and stab yourself to turn your life around? I don’t think so, but I’m curious what you have to say about that?
Quandell Wright 30:14
It didn’t even take that, I was like disappointed I think I just want i wanted to i wanted to go home It took my parents to know to admit me into it was like look we gotta admit you into this cycle he has we have so we don’t we can’t we can’t trust you to get right back out of this band and go into the world like you okay like we can’t do it we came allowed it we got to see what we want.
Victoria Volk 30:39
So, it really wasn’t even waking up in the hospital that like oh my gosh what did what did I just do?
Quandell Wright 30:44
I was you know, it wasn’t, I would just so immune to like kind of do this all the time. I was just ready to get up and go okay, I didn’t die whatever, I want to go home.
Victoria Volk 30:57
So that shift happened for you, and you first had the opportunity to actually talk and be heard?
Quandell Wright 31:03
So yeah, it took for me going to the psych world a psychiatric hospital whatever the case whatever the facility was at the time to be in those a meetings and hearing other people’s story and granted their story was like worse than mine and I felt selfish about you know, like I feel selfish and I was like wow like these people went through like unbelievable things I couldn’t even imagine things I couldn’t even go through even if I wanted to like this is you know they you know this crazy so hearing their story in here near avize this what helped me like you also have a chance like I can do this like I’m here for a reason you know I got it I gotta figure it out. I gotta I gotta fix me No, I gotta change my mindset. So it took for me to go there not waking up in the hospital could that I was just ready to go home I was about to go home what I read and work they stitched me up I’m good you know whatever and my parents they they wasn’t having it because I think it was there I think it was their second time being down there you know only event like that you know me doing something crazy like that. So they were just like nah because the third time I actually beat a charm you might actually succeed you got to see what’s going on. And it’s like that’s after.
Victoria Volk 32:24
So after you made that decision for yourself, you made the choice to take responsibility for yourself is what I’m hearing. How did that transform your parenting and just everything else for you?
Quandell Wright 32:37
So this being very open with my kids always you know we as parents we we get the habit of saying like you know I’m your parent I’m not your friend You know, I think there’s some that we need to stop that just advice to all parents out there what I say is be 5050 be both be or be the friend of your child because I was eight and I was thinking about hanging myself Hey, you know so you could just imagine what these kids want to do now with social media and they saw expose to the world and see and so I’m more open with my kids we talk about whatever they want to talk about my what’s going on I have teenagers now let’s talk you know what’s going on your life what’s what’s happening? Like I’m not like hey, you better not be you now you installing fear and even if they are doing it they might do it more or they might not do it at all but it scared me they don’t really cuz somebody go on whatever you tell them not to do and they don’t really know how to handle it. So now you know too much stuff get caught up into that like hey what’s going on? Are you interested in certain things like so? And we taught my kids all my kids like all of them all the way down? We like mega Tell me whatever like we kick it because I feel like talking is the talking is the real healing process. It is already have my kid been able to come to me and tell me anything and I’m going to be scared shitless like right now I can’t go to my dad with this hit me like I’m going to lay I’m gonna let you know you’re wrong like we’re gonna talk for show but hey look, you hear me you don’t make mistakes but I’m here to guide you though I’m not here to be like to dis control your life I’m here to guide you so I can kind of like help you you know sound on the right path that you’re trying to get on so you won’t make the wrong mistakes all the time because you’ve got to make mistakes the mistakes has come in Well yeah, I have two kids and I just started high school Oh the mistakes as they come in. They come in right now like but it’s better when I like my my son like he lives in Euclid Ohio. Great football player, great basketball player just got a 3.8 GPA. Oh, handsome ages. You know he he does think he did you know he everything. He everything that I Wish I was when I was. He is the man like, when they come to looks like he got it like he is my son. Like I’m proud I created that. Had he stayed fresh his mom is a successful nurse. You know he’s um, he never even live 1% of the lifestyle I was living is a whole different nice home a whole different environment don’t even live. I don’t even think they live in the hood, I just think is like a subdivision type. beautiful home, got every game, every Oh, I can’t even he’s it. He’s what I wanted to be like he’s it. But when come to know having that and being popular is a responsibility, because he bought it. So now on top of that he’s got all these little girls like fast. They all love them. He does I he does. But he’s very respectful. He’s a great guy, you know, he know what’s going on. His mom was like, hey, um, you know, you need to know these little girls, when you start talking to him. These little girls cannot control you talk to him about sex. And I’m like, ah, he was also good at school and sports. I forgot to even maybe mean you see my life, he know about my life. You know, by everything. I say, you see, my life is gonna be like that. Take care of yourself. No kids. And I’m not saying I had to break it down to them. We’re not agreeing with sex. So Get that through your head. But if you think you bout to have it, you need to sit down with me, your mom or me and your mom so we can properly prepare you because we cannot stop. We can. Because you will find a way to do it. Somebody’s going to take you to do it. Some girl going you is going to happen. I hope they don’t though. Don’t and when they do you need to be prepared me to be safe. You need to be responsive. And you could come to us when that time come. We’re not saying Oh hey, do it all the time. You can do your time. No. But it is getting there. You’re like hey, look, you know, I’m feeling this. I want to, now my job is to be like Alright, now stop feeling it. Chill out.
Victoria Volk 37:15
That’s not realistic, right?
Quandell Wright 37:17
But you know what? These are called condoms. Okay, this is some videos you want to learn how to Because? Because I had him at 16, my mom kicked in the door like hey, you have to say oh wait, huh? She didn’t cause me like better you know so it wasn’t really that was her way of that’s the fear tactic, it wasn’t like, Hey come on.
Victoria Volk 37:43
Open communication, yeah.
Quandell Wright 37:44
She was you know cuz she felt like the fear would and look what happened maybe two years later hey, you got a grandbaby. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 37:53
And it was probably a lot of her projecting her own fear right and I think that’s what we we often do sometimes and you know we project our own fears.
Quandell Wright 38:03
Yeah, cuz she had me when she was 17 so it was hard on her, and she was definitely wanting better you know? So, you know having my son at that age which is just crazy. I think my son said he got the youngest parents in the school but um it’s cool like every like his best friend that’s and I’m growing my son has grown up with his parents you know and we can relate to him might be a far behind like he could be thinking he’s slick like new we right there like our generation created social media do lie right here with you but we had a generation when everything was made we had our hands on your first all right so we rewrite with it you went to sleep we right there, but I love what he’s doing very smart. And I want that to you know, I don’t want to put my fear on him. scare him. I just find this. And I lost the scholarship in high school. You know, because I was fighting all day, like I know stuff. And I lost a lot of stuff. And I didn’t lost friends due to um, then I just lost a friend named Joe you know, rescue no less. So I lost the drug overdose. My best friend, one of my best friends since like fourth grade, one of my best friends and that was like the most painful death I’ve encountered. I lost a lot of people. Just people I know you bite down my anus. Great guy. That was a great you know; this is a friend in elementary school. I be so rasam recess and high school together like he lived like we live with my cousin. When we didn’t want to be home where he’s been hardheaded. You know, we went to school from his house. We lived there like no he. No, not like this. Oh man. We’re just terrible, you know, and he was there to take it in and see him go out that way it hurt him because that was In our dream, you know, we wanted to be rappers, we wanted to be successful. We wanted to you know, do things like that right? And he went down the route of he got too deep into the rabbit hole to being a product of his environment. And that’s what happened to him. We got old enough to get jobs and everything like that. He didn’t go that route, you know, he stayed in a hook start hanging out with different types of sets. And the first person actually got him I was the mother of his child, her mother, and she laced the she laced the wheat and ever since then, this the story that I’ve gotten maybe since then it’s been downhill for him. And I’ve seen him when I was 19 or 20. I was working at Comerica Park, one of my best job but I was working at Comerica Park, the Tigers he came with a group and I was saying them and I ran out the back and I was like Joe cuz I hadn’t seen him a year maybe like four or five years. Some years maybe maybe three four at the high school and I was like yo, and we have and he looked he was so skinny. He was missing teeth. He didn’t look like him. And I’m like what’s going on? And he was like man I’m cleaning now and the way he said it you know I was supposed to be clean like what do you mean like you dirty all the time like cuz I didn’t do drugs I didn’t even smoke weed you know I didn’t you know so i he’s i mean i was i was on I was on heroin outside and I broke down because I’m like the we NINETEEN’S no way like the people we see in O’Hare when they was older like them older dope things in the hood and we used to like have racing with the grocery baskets and stuff this little you know no no fees like we know you’re my best friend you schooling off gave him my number he always lose your number always Hey, you know I’ve moved out of the neighborhood and want to my life crisis and all that stuff. I want to say Joe pass four months ago but I see him maybe two months before he passed me withdrawal driving a friend of mines on Cato he was driving you see them walking in the middle of the street because we want to go do something and in the city so we stopped we got out man we heard them and he was looking the same way real skinny big clothes with no shirt yeah like a rope top that to his pants is this real bow and we talk and before he left I heard them all i mean you know I love you bro like because we wanted to help him get his ID and stuff like that so he got our number and I love you don’t have to get your ID I just built my studio that’s what you’re looking at so I renovated my garage to my design studio so I got my own creative space now so this week I was like yo can we get this together? Have you come out you know you’re gonna help print some t shirts you know because Cato you know or the boy Cato he print custom t that’s a side business he really he does a great job so let’s go do stuff with us we’ll make sure you get your birth certificate your ID we don’t get you away from here bro you know good things happen I just did the you know the know the collaboration with K Swiss with the T shirts the Unity t shirt happened in August so he already passed and I believe Yeah, he did. But you know I was still communicating with Mr. waters to see okay, Swiss. My mentors that ethica you know, like, good things is happening you know, like sunlight. Yo, you know, you won’t be doing something like they’ll be gonna get you away from even if you got to stay in the studio. And I heard him I told him that and we love He called me two weeks before he died. He was like one in the morning. He was at this gas station and he was like, man, I need to charge. Oh, my hellos. Like what? And I need a charger. I need a phone charger. I’m calling from the gas station phone. I’m like, Okay, well I look at it. Yeah, like I’m like Obama. And I’m like, Well, I have iPhones so I’m like well, I can use the PlayStation charger that I use for my controller bracketing he’s like nah man he was oh Joe was always caring he name you know the kids may play a game I’m like no bro who need to charge I’m gonna come I’m gonna come out you know he was a nominal Mario I’m like you sure you know they want to in the morning like yeah i’m sure so I was about to go he was like bro he called me and said you know I love you and thank you for always picking up my phone and that was the last words that he said and I was like, you know I got you rambling you know and and that was it and then I hear that he you know he had passed away from overdose. He passed away from overdose. And I cried for days because I felt like I failed. You know as a brother as a friend that I didn’t become successful quick enough to say my friend talked to his dad his dad was like you know we did so much to try to help them but when people in their mindset of where they want to be at where they want to stay who they are you can’t really can’t change that and I just felt so bad like his days I To this day, like I wish I just would have just stuffed him in the car like bro, you just go I had to stay here. Hold him hostage. I used to go. And I wish I would have did that, you know, but um, he had dreams he had door first had like, three girls, three beautiful daughters, you know, just just a great guy. He really was. Yeah, that was just, um, it was just tragic for me. And I’ve really put like a put a scar on my heart. For real my that was my best friend. So seeing that and going through that, it was just really like, I really have to do more for the community. I want to do more for the community. You know, I just, you can’t save everybody. That’s the sad part. can’t save everybody. But um, if I could save one or two people at a time, I think that’s that’s progress. And I can take that. I’ll take that over.
Victoria Volk 45:47
I’ll tell you right now I really feel like you’re a ripple creator.
Quandell Wright 45:51
Thank you. Yeah, um, my life is this whatever, you know.
Victoria Volk 45:56
In your life? Yes. Just the fact that you turned your life around. You’re changing your kid’s lives in the process, the trajectory of their lives, of everyone in your life.
Quandell Wright 46:09
Banner, banner’s key yeah, kids is awesome. My wife is awesome. So great team, you know, you create a great team one day in life, you see one and I created that mindset. And I have that, you know, like my daughter, she made something actually out of hanging out. Think positive. Don’t think negative. is was dope though. Cuz I’m like, yo, she’s learning from what I teach all the time. And I’ve thought about it some time. I do. You know, you mean a note like that? And I’m like, oh, this is dope. So yeah, she listened. You know, my son listened. And my son had texted me like, hey, pops, telling you I love you keep it going. I see what’s going on. You know, like, I’m proud. Like as though you know, there’s really though so my kids they they behind me, you know? Sam, my wife, behind the man and we all we got, y’all we got so yeah.
Victoria Volk 47:05
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all of that, Quandell. I know you couldn’t see but my eyes were welling up.
Quandell Wright 47:14
I appreciate it. I do. When people hear my story, and they just know me personally, they be like, I would have never thought that. Like you are just so happy most of the time you so giving, you know, and I just be like, Yeah, but people like that many been through the worse. And I just want to be that person, they don’t want somebody else to go through. So, you know, I always say like, you know, become that friend that you always wanted to have for somebody else. You know, so that’s how you become a great friend. Yeah. And that’s really it from there. Oh, yeah. I know. He was talking about the book said the Dr. Joe. Dr. Joe book about the this Vanessa?
Victoria Volk 47:57
Dispenza? Yes. listeners, there is a book that Quandell and I actually bonded over a little bit. It’s called breaking the habit of being yourself how to lose your mind and create a new one by Dr. Joe Dispenza. I don’t know about you, but it’s
Quandell Wright 48:15
Yeah, that’s a great book. And we have the becoming supernatural natural
Victoria Volk 48:21
Oh, becoming supernatural natural. I’ve not read that one.
Quandell Wright 48:27
Get it. Um, this book right here is, um, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. Yep. So this is a little torture, but it’s all about self healing. The law of attraction, you know, just healing yourself mentally, and how to how to balance your energy and how to make sure you you invest your energy into the right things that you want in life, you know, for it to come true and everything like that. So great book. I love it. And then if you’re entrepreneur thinking Grow Rich, have it read it. by Napoleon Hill. Napoleon Hill. This is a great book. And, and don’t give up. This is by Kyle Eidelman, don’t give up.
Victoria Volk 49:08
Okay, Kyle Idleman. Never heard of that one.
Quandell Wright 49:12
Yeah, great book. Yeah, I’d be reading that again. I read some books over again. And I’m in rotation. So I feel like I get some new ones. And this is from Robert. This is from the dude that wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, but it’s called the business school. Now, okay, very cool. Very cool. Very good. So entrepreneurs get this. And if you need help with marketing, 10-day MBA.
Victoria Volk 49:35
That’s a big book.
Quandell Wright 49:38
It is a big book. And a lot of these, this book is still being used. It’s still being used in it. And the budget business major universities. So if you’re into marketing or anything, the Wall Street, you know, Wall Street graduates, they know what this book is. And I’m self taught, and I learned everything from this book right here. So this is a great book. It’s very It’s beautiful. So, I got more books but these are like my favorite books. And these are like I mean a more than bugs these are like these are my Bibles. So, I always go back in and look at the notes and kind of re reread certain chapters that I like and and I go from there so read in this very very good for you especially if you are entrepreneur or influencer so read your books stay on top of your game and especially if you soft you self taught you need books. Okay. And YouTube University is great as well. Its good.
Victoria Volk 50:42
I love a book in my hand too. I will link to all those books that Quandell mentioned as well. And right now I’m reading love yourself like your life depends on it.
Quandell Wright 50:52
Oh, nice.
Victoria Volk 50:53
And I like how it’s written. It’s not even written in chapters. It’s like headings and it’s very practical too. I think you would like this so that would be my other recommendation.
Quandell Wright 51:07
Okay, sweet.
Victoria Volk 51:08
I see a bit of Quandell, right the life coach here. I don’t know about my listeners, but I see great things for you, just your spirit and your energy.
Quandell Wright 51:19
Thank you thank you yeah,
Victoria Volk 51:21
My pleasure.
Quandell Wright 51:23
You gotta you gotta you gotta smile smile people smile pleased This is actually beneficial to help in everything when I learned about smiling they are nice I could do that all the time like this self confidence and it’s a boost smile in the morning and they’re telling you a whole day it’d be right and when you smile you smile I mean peih Gee, can I even like interrupt their energy at all like me people came to be mean to you when you smiling they just give a smile that smile is gonna keep your confidence level up Believe in yourself and um anybody could contact me on facebook All right, Instagram q x William Palmer got any questions you just want to talk I’m here I don’t have to know you this is not a time for people to be like I don’t know you so I don’t care it’s me all human we all breathe and bleed the same you know you know this just reach out and I’m actually one more thing before we leave I’m actually doing every Sunday I have like a guy group um which is kind of cool. So um, the guys they come out and we talk like how are we talking about what’s going on in my life and what they want to accomplish and how to accomplish it and and we talk it’s and we got you know we got the PlayStation running got like 2k we got some beers got some food and the guys we just talk and we you know it might be deep it might not be so deep but we talk and the first time I had it people was happy about this they was like man I feel really good. I was able to write maybe talk to some people I really didn’t know um it was able to like network with each other like you know pass numbers like my friend um he actually he makes seasonings he got his own seasoning and he, so he saw like four or five you know so that was kind of cool you know, but he was able to talk and get it out. So, every Sunday I was called I hey can you do this Sunday? Can I bring somebody because my bro want to come Can you talk brangham Let’s go so I’m getting more man in here. Hopefully not too many to where I can’t fit them all but I’m getting more man here we are talking y’all laughing y’all smiling we’re getting off our chest and I’m planning on to you know hopefully get women in here. Women a little bit more feisty. But I plan on trying to get women in here sooner or later but right now I just feel like you know, man, it’s very hard for us to talk about anything. Especially black man. You don’t really know anything about therapy real No, we just I’m just we’re we just genuinely and I get people in here and we all caring and loving I feel like that’s enough. You’re not paying anything. You just hear for however long you want to be here you don’t even have to talk if you just want to just catch the vibe of things that’s fine too. You know, I just want to make sure that his energy and his vibe and and I make sure I save before anybody come so that way just all positive energy and then we go from there so yep, so this Sunday, I’m doing it again and people are excited. So if you in the state of Michigan or if you are not I’m here if you visiting. You just want to you know people Want to bigger than this, they like major sponsors, I don’t really want all that I just really want it genuine and very, very authentic. You know, I don’t really want cameras and anything like that I really want people to feel like they can talk without all this stuff going on camera and I want us to talk about it. It’s such a blow up bigger than that, and that’d be fine. For their sake. I want them to feel, you know, feel like they can talk to like a real friend. Yeah, so yeah, so that’s what I have going on every Sunday. That’s cool.
Victoria Volk 55:35
That’s amazing. You are so inspiring. I’m so glad you agreed to be on and I’m glad I met you.
Quandell Wright 55:43
Likewise. Thank you. I gotta send you some gear.
Victoria Volk 55:50
I would love that, thank you again. If you want to reach out to quando again his he’s on Instagram at qxwilliampalmer. And are you on Facebook? Did you say if you were on Facebook?
Quandell Wright 56:01
Yes, I’m on Facebook. Yeah Quandell H Wright (Q).
Victoria Volk 56:07
You send me the link, you send me the information and I’ll put it in the in the notes. Everybody hooked up there. That was all right. Thank you so much again, for sharing your story with me with my audience. I send you so much love and light and I just your ripple creator. And I thank you for being you.
Quandell Wright 56:29
Thank you. I appreciate it. Peace of love. Take care.
Victoria Volk 56:31
All right, till next time, everybody. Unleash your heart and you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections | Trauma & The Woo
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Episode 25 with Katie Chonacas was difficult for me to hear. I saw myself in her story and, although my experiences have been different, I felt for her, what I had been feeling also for myself. And, that was incredible sadness for what she went through.
In this episode, I reflect more deeply on those experiences and, you’ll also get to learn and understand how it is I found my way to do the work that I do today as both a Certified Grief Specialist and as a Reiki Master.
I share, from Victoria Shaw’s episode (Episode 26) more about my experience with motherhood and my loss of self, and the path I paved on finding my way back to myself. And, not just my adult self, but the inner-child within that loved “all things woo” even as a kid.
The natural wonder of being a kid never left me, just as it hasn’t left you. Life, obligations, and responsibilities have a way of sucking the fun out of life. It’s up to us to bring back the wonder, the mystery, curiosity, and playback into our lives. I share how Reiki has reignited that for me – and within me.
Resources Mentioned:
Quick Link to Previous Episodes:
So anyway, today I’m going to share some of my takeaways things that I would like to reflect on from their episodes. So starting with Katie’s episode, I think with trauma, we tend to have this emotional disconnect from our bodies. Oftentimes, trauma negatively impacts our relationships, and others can trigger similar emotions that we are attempting to stuffed down, ignore, or in some instances, truly disconnect from and bury so deep that the experience and the feelings come in and flashes, almost like flashbacks later in life. And such has been the case for me personally. And, you know, I really haven’t opened up a whole lot about my personal experience in a lot of detail. But Katie’s sharing has actually, it was actually really hard for me to listen to her story. Because I only this year, I’ve had other experiences come up in those flashbacks as I mentioned. But my story started when I was a child. I was molested as a child, I was nine the first time. On another occasion, I was a little bit older. I was 12. And these are the occurrences that I remember my childhood is very, I don’t want to say choppy in my memory.
You know, losing my dad at eight that was very traumatic. And he was sick for quite some time before that. So yeah, just my childhood is not wasn’t ideal. Like it wasn’t. Yeah, I just I feel like that I buried a lot. And so therefore a lot of memories are captured. Not a lot, because I don’t have a lot of pictures to be honest. It’s almost as if I need pictures to remember, I guess. But that time plays out in my mind, like a movie. And so do my cries for help where others were in the home, and no one came to help me. After the second time I was 12. I was silent for two years. Until I wasn’t and and then I was disregarded. Thus, this set the stage for a child who became very angry inside a child who learned that good behavior. That’s an air quotes, by the way, was rewarded with love. Which then created unworthiness issues that I’m actually still working through. Not to mention the ability to say what I need and ask for help.
Learning Resiliency Not by Choice
I learned resiliency, but not by choice. I’ve spoken about this before, maybe in another podcast episode with someone else, or I’m not sure, but it drives me absolutely crazy when people say that children are resilient, because many became that way, not by choice, and children don’t necessarily bounce back or get over it any more than adults do. So children with they’re still developing minds, rather, are changed biologically and chemically, at a cellular level, when there’s trauma, which is an event that is traumatic to them, and not by your definition as the adult. So often, adults don’t understand, you know, what the big deal is, when kids express their emotions in a big way. And the best thing you can do is to without judgment, and was analyzing or criticizing them, is to just listen, you know, and I’m not talking even like these these big experience, these traumatic experiences, I’m talking the little ones to that might not be a big deal to you, but to that child, it’s something traumatic for them, you know, you take their blankie away, or their pet dies into you, it’s like, well, we can replace the pet, you know, we can, we can get a new dog.
My Big T Traumas & The Effect of Trauma
And this is why I talk a lot about with grief in that the first lessons we receive on how to grieve is when we are children. So don’t just assume that, you know, the dog dies, get a new one, hope they bounce back, they’re still emotionally incomplete from that first pet they lost, that was probably their best friend, their first their first love in a way, you know, you just don’t forget your first love, I think there needs to be a little bit more compassion brought in to the relationships that children develop. So anyway, that’s kind of a side tangent. I mentioned that though, because by the time I was 18, I had had several big T traumas, but also little ones, too, you know, with the animals, you know, with the dogs that I had to give away and couldn’t keep or friends moving away. So by the age of 18, I’d already experienced those, like I said, several big t traumas. And as Dr. Victoria Shaw called them in Episode 26, and adulthood to me, like, equated this, in many ways, freedom, I saw myself in Katy second experience more than once. And if you haven’t listened to that episode, this won’t make much sense, maybe until you do. But alcohol was my best friend for several years. And as a result, I just didn’t care about much else, I should have lost my job, I nearly lost my license, my driver’s license, I ruined my credit. And when it all came to a head, I am pretty amazed looking back that I wasn’t using more alcohol or something other than alcohol. But there was one I’d buried so deeply that as I speak about it, I still don’t fully know what happened. And that’s the scary thing about trauma. It can rare, it’s buried ugly head, when you least expect it. I experienced a first a flashback during my Reiki one and two certification.
And what has followed has been more moments like that the impact it’s had on me and my marriage, not necessarily in a bad way. It’s brought to the bend brought to the light to be healed. Did it feel good? No. But it did it. I mean, to be honest, it did have some negative impact on my marriage. Because a trauma like that, that you can’t really explain, you really don’t know. What do you do with that, right? So still working through that our shadow selves. The sides of us that come out when we’re stressed, angry or sad, are tied to those parts of ourselves that are asking to be healed. And so for me giving up alcohol completely cold turkey. It was a year in November, which I still fully can’t explain. Because I don’t even crave it wasn’t that was a necessary step to heal everything else because my relationship to alcohol didn’t start in my 20s. Like for many of us, it started for me as a teenager. And there are layers to our lives, chapters of our book that with tender self loving care and self compassion. We can change the narrative of our future chapters. And Katie did that for herself by sharing for the first time her story on my podcast publicly, and it’s led to some much needed conversations in her life healing conversations from what she shared with me since we recorded her Episode two months ago. I hope you find your courage to make the moves you need and the steps you need to heal.
Grief Recovery Can Help You
What that looks like for you, whether it’s seeking outside help going on a healing retreat, beginning a journaling and meditation practice, or simply forgiving yourself. But I must tell you, it is not necessary to confront anyone who has hurt you, physically or otherwise, forgiveness is for you, not the other person. Grief recovery can help you find your way to forgiveness without ever speaking one word to the offender, reach out if you need support. And I’ll put the link in the show notes. The biggest mistake so many of us make is that we think we have to go it alone. Society has taught us that you need to be strong. But like I said, traumas big and small, have a way of rearing their ugly heads when we least expect it. So if you do need support, please, if you don’t reach out to me, reach out to someone.
A Story of Losing Her Beloved Self
Moving on to Victoria’s episode, I’m going to be speaking to the moms, the parents listening. That’s what I am. That’s what this episode was about. To start. It was Victoria’s story of her loss of herself her beloved self as she called her when she became a mother. And I really resonated with that I thought it was a different type of loss that hadn’t been covered on the podcast, one that I relate to, I think, especially when you are in the trenches of motherhood, as I explained to in the episode, sharing how my kids were, I have three children. My oldest is pushing 16, my youngest will be 12 pretty soon and my middle is 14 started a job now my middle one. She’s a waitress got her light cutter permit actually not that long ago. So you know, I’m on the road to an empty nest faster than I really anticipated when they were still three in diapers at one time. And those years are a blur. Absolutely a blur. But there was so much going on for me at that time, personally, and children have a way of bringing up our traumas. So emotionally, I felt like I was going through a lot. I was a single mom, essentially, for much of their younger years. Just because my husband traveled with his job, he was gone quite a bit. So that was challenging. So you kind of lose yourself when you’re so preoccupied with little people. Right? You don’t have time for yourself. It’s hard to make time. I’ll just make the time. Yeah, easier said than done. Right? So yeah, I lost myself in my kids.
And by the time I could actually take a step back and breathe a little boy was I confused. I was so lost, I felt so lost. And it wasn’t until my youngest started was starting kindergarten. And actually, just this week, as I’m recording this, I connected some dots, I realized I had a loss in 2014 of someone who it was really an emotionally charged relationship, because she wasn’t in my life. And the person was my grandmother, my dad’s mother, and I had not connected the dots that you know, she had actually died the month before my youngest started kindergarten. And emotionally, I think I kind of buried what was going on for me during that time when she passed because I had gone to visit her in the nursing home. And it wasn’t a very good visit. I think I went there for some sort of completion, some sort of apology, because when my dad passed, I didn’t as much as even get a birthday card, you know, I was eight, and I just wasn’t in her life. And I don’t know, really the reason completely behind all that. But, you know, adult matters tend to trickle into the children, you know, which is very unfortunate egos get in the way. And the children become collateral damage. So that was me, I felt, you know, really damaged from the fractured relationship, the relationship that never was. And so when I went to see her in the nursing home, I think I was looking for some sort of glimmer in her eye of sorrow, regret, and yeah, an apology that I never got.
And so like in grief recovery, we say, Well, you know, if you’re looking for an apology, you never get you’re stuck in emotional jail. And that’s the thing about forgiveness is that and why it’s for us and not the other person. Because what if you were to forgive someone in person, and they don’t accept it? They don’t accept your apology. You’re stuck in emotional jail, or what if you’re waiting for an apology that you never get? You’re still stuck in emotional jail, right? So that was me. I was stuck in emotional jail, and then my youngest started kindergarten and I really did not connect that not until this week. So that was kind of the tip of the iceberg, I suppose of 2014 when this whole personal development stuff really started to take off for me, I suppose, where I looked for books and things, courses, people that could help me feel better. So yeah, anyway, back to Victoria’s conversation about motherhood.
The Woo of Life
That’s what 2014 the start of 2014 was for me, it was finding my way back to me again, after my youngest started kindergarten. Now, at that same time, if you’ve never listened to an episode, before I got a dog, I told my husband, I needed a dog, because I was really hurting inside and I was looking for a distraction. And I replaced the loss of my child, my last one going to kindergarten of what I now know is like emotional dis ease from that relationship that ended the way it did. That brought up all those old old feelings when she passed. So yeah, that conversation really resonated with me, I listened to it, if you’re a mother probably will resonate with you too. And we got a lot into talking about the Woo, the woo of life. When I say the word Woo. I mean, like the things you can’t explain the spiritual, the mystic intuition, things like that, you know, it can mean astrology can mean palm reading. For some people, you know, they’ll include Tarot in there, for some like pagan type things is a little Woo. I’m not into the Tarot thing I’m not into, there’s some things I’m not really into, or don’t really resonate with me or speak to me, what does speak to me is all about intuition. I’m all about intuition.
And I’m all about the things I can’t explain. And one of the things I can’t explain is Reiki really well, because to this day, after being a practitioner, Reiki practitioner now for Oh, gosh, is it a year, something like that little over a year, it really is hard for me to explain. There’s a mystery to it. That brings out the kid in me. And I’ve really, anyway, I’ll get more into that. But when I say Woo, that’s what I mean. And living where I live, where it’s very rural farming community, you know, where this is German heritage in my area, we’re stubborn, we are stubborn. I will admit that. So Reiki in my area is almost like this thing that the people that come to me, I hear a lot. So many of them say that, well, that’s weird. I’m weird. And, you know, for many years, like when I was a child, I thought I was weird, too. But anyway, so growing up, I was into the mysterious and the unexplainable, and mysticism, I ordered a dream analysis book, as a teen, I read my horoscope read religiously, into my peers, I did feel different from them. Because I was into the different. And when I say different, I’m, you know, air quotes, different as I grew, and responsibilities and obligations of life, those things were kind of shoved to the, to the background, you know, obligations, responsibilities were put to the forefront, and my dreamy mystic, intrigued self went into the shadows. That is until I started to wake up to that side of me, again, the unbelievably curious side of me, because I felt incredibly lost in my life, as I mentioned earlier, and unfulfilled.
And I didn’t know why, by outward appearances, I should have been happy. I had a great family, healthy kids who I was able to raise without the pressures of childcare and the needs, and overall, I was living a blessed life. And there’s grief in that in so much guilt and shame. Like, why can’t you just be content? I would think to myself, How selfish are you for wanting more for yourself? But what was that more? What was it? That’s why I felt so lost. That’s what grief does to us, makes us feel lost. Like, we don’t have choices, all these things. So I felt lost. 2014 lost. And that’s when I started, like I said earlier to seeking out or maybe they found me books, resources, courses, things that would help me elevate my life, evolve, grow through the things I’d experienced. So over the next five years, I would navigate the deep question. We all ask ourselves at one point, and more often than not, it’s during a life changing period in our lives, or life changing event. And the question is, why am I here? The other question is, what is my purpose, which brings me back to the child within me, who was curious about everything.
How Reiki Works
So my journey of self discovery began with having my palms read and doing an immense amount of journaling, meditation, tapping, reading so many books, and finally, grief recovery. And as I began to shed the layers of all that grief through grief recovery work in the personal development and internal stuff I was working through, I was led to Reiki or Reiki phone me kept hearing about it. Reiki, reiki, reiki, I’m like, What? It would pop up everywhere, like what is Reiki? I had a call with a gal that knew more about Reiki than I did. We talked and she shared what she knew with me and so intrigued and curious. And I hadn’t even experienced a Reiki session for myself. And I thought, well, there’s something to this, I listened to my intuition, and I signed up for a class and the rest is history. I went as far as I’ve could have gone. Now as in my certifications, unless I Well, that’s not true, I could actually become a licensed Reiki Master, which can take several years actually take up to three years. I’m not quite there yet. I’m very satisfied with where I’m at, I guess in my development, as far as Reiki goes, but Reiki has been a game changer for me. It has been that thing that has reminded me of my kids self, the child curious about everything, who wondered about the things no one could explain, and has helped me to understand myself on a deeper level. I’ve learned through Reiki, why don’t get squeamish around others deep emotions, how I’m empathic, and feel others people’s energy in the room.
Reiki has given me language to explain why I feel drained, after social events, how I would pick up and take on other people’s energy. But in the past, I didn’t know how to shake as when I was a professional photographer, and I shot weddings, you know, shooting a wedding, it’s, you know, 12 hour day, it’s like a marathon and you’re around people all day, like it’s 12 hours of peopling and I would be wiped two days, it would take me two days to recover from shooting a wedding. I never really understood why I just thought it was like this, you know, the mental and physical bandwidth that goes into it. But it was also people’s energy, like a lot of people’s energy, which is really great, usually for a wedding, but not always, you know, there’s family dynamics where things can be stressful to so but anyway, I just really gained a lot of understanding of my own energy through Reiki.
So coming back to where I live in rural North Dakota, when I tell people in my area, and even at first when I told some of my own family members about Reiki they were like, Huh, what’s that? Reiki just isn’t well known. Not in my area anyway. And the clients I do have have expressed to me what I long felt about myself, as I mentioned, like they, you know, they’re weird. They feel like they’re weird, because they’re into this sort of thing that makes me sad, because they’re feeling embarrassment, for knowing what it is. Because it’s just one of those things. That’s really hard to explain. And this leads me to a question. So if you identify yourself, as a Christian, stick with me, I’m not getting into religion here. Just stick with me. If you identify yourself as a Christian, I’m going to challenge you to consider it doesn’t that isn’t that a little bit Woo, too. Because if you believe in someone, you neither see, nor hear out loud and can’t explain in a lot of ways, like what it what that faith is believing and not seeing, like, if you can’t if I mean, that’s really hard to explain for Christians, I’m a Christian, that’s really hard to explain, right? To have this inner knowing this faith of what you cannot see, and you cannot hear as a Christian. That’s a little bit woo isn’t it? I don’t know. That’s what came up for me as I was thinking about this. It’s like we believe in something we cannot see. And we cannot hear. And that’s Reiki. That’s Reiki for me.
How Reiki Can Enhanced Faith Relationship
You know, people might say, You’re weird for being a Christian. I don’t know. There’s some people that would maybe, but kind of the same side of the coin for me. So I suppose just as I have blind faith and Jesus, I have blind faith and Reiki and it’s just opened up a spiritual connection for me to a higher power greater than my own. It’s actually really enhanced my relationship my faith relationship. I feel like I’m simply a conduit for the love and the light energy that is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced before. As a result of the work that I’ve been doing. I feel more tapped into my intuition and inner knowing the night ever have an a part of that is because I’ve removed the many cloaks that I’ve worn and the veil that grief had put over my eyes. Eyes and over my soul. When our hearts get convoluted in our logical minds full of Monkey chatter, we find it really difficult to see which way is up much less know when our heart is guiding us to something better when we clear a path from our hearts to our higher selves, and we pull the weeds along the way, and trim the bushes our lives, blossom and thrive. Each of us has to find our own way on what the path clearing will entail. And will each utilize or be called to something different different modalities or people that help us do that.
My takeaway for you, is to listen to your nudges and poopoo, the logical mind that wants to question and second guess whether you find yourself knee deep in diapers, packing up the last kid for college, or questioning what you want to do with your life after a devastating loss. Consider that the energy of grief you may be carrying loss of self identity of who you once were, and the unknown of what’s to come. Perhaps the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations are what you wish would have been different, better or more, or would be different, better or more. These are feelings of grief. If you feel deeply and identify yourself as an empath, like myself, embrace this as a gift, not a curse, as I did for so long. Resist getting locked into your pain story. And choose action towards healing. When you get the nudges as victorious son, or episode, no part of the human experience is wasted.
Curiosity Led Me Into Healing
I want to leave you with this amazing awareness I had while editing. It was 10:20 when we recorded our episode, and I shared how my dad hasn’t come to me in my dreams in her episode. So if you haven’t listened to it, then you’ll This will make sense. But three days later, during my Karuna holy fire certification training, we did a guided healing meditation.
And guess what? My dad came to me. I was a child in this vision. And I came out of that meditation very different than I went in. It was a profoundly healing meditation. And the message I received was that I wasn’t ready until now. And I did not make this connection until I was editing your episode. So what we need to know comes to us in divine timing. And that may sound a little Woo. And I don’t care. Because I’m a little Woo. And I’m not embarrassed. I don’t feel weird. I’m embracing that inner child in me that loves all the things I can’t explain. Curiosity has led to so much healing for me. Because when I’ve been curious about something and I’ve followed that nudge. It led me to Reiki it led me to grief recovery first. But it led to so many things before that since 2014 when I started this personal development and my own healing. So and embrace it. As you know if you are an empath and you feel deeply. It’s not something to curse in your life, like I did for so long. Embrace it as a gift.
P.S. Thank you so much for listening today. We went deep. Like I love like I love doing. So I hope you found this episode. Inspiring, insightful, helpful. All the things If you did, please share it with someone you love and care about. Or give me five star review, which would be lovely. And it’s good karma. It’s just good karma. So, thank you again for being here. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Spirituality |
Victoria Shaw | The Cloaks We Wear
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Victoria Shaw is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified School Counselor in the State of Connecticut. She is also the author of four books, for tweens, teens, and adults, and the mother of two spirited, adult children.
Victoria shares the loss of her sacred, beloved self, as she refers to her then self; the part of herself who she always was, however, lost touch and connection with over the passage of time and the beginning of motherhood.
She shares how her life experience led her to the intuitive counseling work she does today, and also fully expressing her gifts as a medium and how that blends in and supports her work and her clients.
This episode has a gift of wisdom for everyone. There is something you will take from this, regardless if you identify yourself as a griever or not.
There is a lot of depth to this conversation, and we discuss the following topics and more:
- The mother identity – loss of self
- Leaning into the gift of being empathic + tips for empaths
- Intuition – the key to connecting to your higher self
- Grievers – How to know what to do next
- Answering the Question: Do we need to suffer to grow?
- What happens when we die?
- Unhelpful things, from Victoria’s perspective, we do as grievers to ourselves and others
- How to connect with a departed love one
Victoria speaks my language in this episode. You don’t have to be “into the woo” to get something out of this episode. In fact, I’m going to address the idea of the “woo” in Episode 27 where I share my Takeaways & Reflections (along with an amazing realization I had upon editing and listening back to this episode).
Listen with an open mind and an open heart, and if you do listen, know that it was meant for you to hear.
Our sorrows and wounds are healed only when we touch them with compassion. – Buddha
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Victoria:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome to another week of grieving voices. If you’re new here, thank you for tuning in. And if you’ve been around a while, thank you as well. Today, my guest is Dr. Victoria Shaw. And we are going to be talking about all sorts of stuff regarding theories, tools, techniques, her grieving story, of course, and also a little bit of the Woo, and which excites me. So, Victoria, how about you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Victoria Shaw 00:39
Yay, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. So, I am an intuitive counselor, and coach and my, my journey. My story is that about, wow, 15 years ago, I started to, you know, I felt like a longing in my life, I felt like there was something something was missing. There was something I was supposed to be doing that I wasn’t doing. And I didn’t know what it was. And at that point, I had left a career in academic psychology, I had done some some book writing, which is something I always wanted to do, I was in the thick of being a mom, stay at home mostly stay at home mom at this point. But I just kept feeling this deeper longing, this deeper question, there was something else I was supposed to do. And because at that time to my kids were pretty complicated. And they were both struggling with different things. And those different things brought me a little bit further and further out of that left brained, mainstream box of how things should be done. And I started seeing intuitive healers and medical intuitive and energy workers and all sorts of things. And I started to just have my mind expanded more and more to these kinds of tools that maybe were not in my left brain Western trained toolbox. It was on that path. And I discovered that I, I had this gift of intuition. And intuition is something we all have, it’s that kind of knowing that you have that’s not something you’ve been taught. It’s not that something you can explain it with your logical mind. But it’s something where you know, it’s true. You don’t know why, you know, but you’re 100%, right. And everyone’s has an experience with their intuition. It’s but it’s not something that’s talked about a lot in our society. And it’s not something that most of us have been taught to nurture and taught to us. And for me, that intuitive call was really strong. Oftentimes my intuitive information borders on what people might call psychic, or like six sensory. And I realized that had this gift my whole life, I had the ability to get guidance for people, I had the ability to know things about people that I had no business knowing. I was a feeler so I could feel what other people were feeling. But because I didn’t have a frame of reference for understanding it, because it was so strong and I wasn’t using appropriate boundaries, I was sort of overwhelmed. And I’d kind of lost touch with the gift Enos of the gifts. And so this all started a journey for me to connect with my intuition and really develop it and turn it back into the gift that it’s meant to be. And now what I do is I use my intuition to support others in doing the same and tapping into their own inner resources and their own inner wisdom. So that they can get the most out of this human experience.
Victoria Volk 03:34
Do you feel like because I, I’m a feeler, I feel things deeply and working with, you know, I used to be a CNA in a nursing home and did hospice, home health care, things like that. And so you can definitely feel without things even need needing to be said I could and I just did not feel uncomfortable sitting with people in their grief, even though I myself am a griever. And maybe do you feel like when you consider yourself or know yourself to be aggrieved, or do you feel like that’s when we kind of? I don’t know, like, do you feel like not sure what I’m trying to ask here? I know what I’m trying to ask. I’m just so excited about this conversation. I feel like my intuition was kind of cut off in a way from my grief because of my grief, but at the same time, I was I would feel things with people. And I didn’t understand how why that was.
Victoria Shaw 04:43
Yeah, you’re saying a bunch of different things. No, it’s good. It’s good. It’s good. I’m gonna try to unpack them if I if I may. Look, I think especially people doing end of life work and that kind of care is such a beautiful gift to hold the space of This is how it comes through to say enlightenment, light, joy, peace, eternity, like with people that are passing over and knowing that even though that grieving process is so hard, and even though everything about our human existence tells us that death is the end, it’s not the end, it’s just a transition, it’s a transformation from one state of being your human state to another state of being where you’ll just be, you know, an energy spiritual being again. But holding people through that process is so powerful, and my readers, and I hope that I can share this and if not, I hope you have a good editor. I think that’s a gift that you have to hold people through that space and to hold the light through people through that space when they are grieving. And I think that’s a beautiful gift. I think it’s a gift that you came into this physical lifetime with. And I think your own personal grief experiences have actually helped you with that they’ve helped you understand even if you’re not always understanding that with your brain, your viscerally your body knows that there’s, there’s, there’s something to be gained through this process. Okay, so I hope that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 06:08
It does. And I just want to share briefly an experience that I just wrote about not that long ago. I think it’s fair post coming up. But my, okay, so 30 years after my dad passed, I was eight when he passed away, I had this inner knowing when I found out his only living sibling or his brother was dying of brain cancer. He was in the hospital, they didn’t know how much time he had left to live. I hadn’t seen him since my dad’s funeral, we were pretty much cut off from that side of the family. And I had this inner feeling that I needed to go see him. Even though I hadn’t seen him for 30 years. I didn’t know if he’d recognize me, he was diagnosed with brain cancer, I didn’t know if you’d recognize me what that experience would be like anything like that. And I open the hospital room door. And not it mean, it was just this, I can’t It was like magic. It was just this magical healing moment for I think both of us. And not, five minutes later, 10 minutes later, there’s a knock at the door. And here it was his daughter, one of his daughters and a cousin, I didn’t even remember meeting as a child who they live like, like across the country, and the neighboring state. And so that’s where I was like, wow, this, it was just a powerful experience for me. And I really want to the listeners to understand or to what they what I want them to hear in this is that we always do have that intuition, like you said, and it’s just listening to it. And it’s been open to it. And I want to know, tell us how you came to do this work? I know you said it was a medical intuitive. But what led you what was going on in your world? What was the grief that you then were told that you had to work through.
Victoria Shaw 08:00
So in the process of working with my kids and being introduced to all these different you know, out of the box healers, my pediatrician Believe it or not sent me to this medical intuitive and so she was she was mostly asking questions like, you know, did somebody have Lyme disease or what are some good supplements to treat my son’s ADHD and but in the process and working with me, she said you know, that it tested that I had this grief. And I you know was like what? You know, I hadn’t I lost I don’t think I even had lost my grandmother. Yeah, I lost my grandfather when I was young. But those those big t trauma Greeks were not something that were part of my life. And I was really like racking my brain over what do you mean grief? And she said, well, you know, it could be a loss of of like, you know, she said it was a loss of a sacred Beloved, that was the word that came through. And I was like, you know, she’s like, well, that sacred Beloved, could be part a part of yourself. Whoa, hey, oh my gosh, yes. And that was a big catalyst on my journey, because I really thought about, you know, the parts of myself that I had left behind when I was in high school, and I had certain dreams and ideas of how I wanted my life to work. And that sense of agency that we all have at that age, when you know, the sky’s the limit, and you had these big dreams, I realized wow, you know, I forgot about those things. And also, just my professional identity too, because I had been you know, someone who I’m an Ivy League trained research psychologist, and you know, I was doing my postdoc at Columbia and I had you know, so I had this big professional persona that I really left behind because a I didn’t love doing it. And B I wanted to focus on on having my family, but all of those threads were still they were longings, they were losses, and so it was part of the steps that I took to, you know, investigate and work on those losses that led me to the work that I’m doing now. She actually sent me to an astrologer. Believe it or not took me about three years before that. actually happened. From the time that I identified that she identified I had this loss of the sacred Beloved, which I think was parts of me to seeing the astrologer. But the astrology reading was like one of the most powerful experiences of my life because, you know, she read my chart, and you maybe don’t believe in this stuff until it happens to you. But she literally told me, you know, based on my birth date, and the time I was born, and where I was born, right, all of my hopes and dreams and all of those things that I had, you know, thought were were the case about myself when I was in high school and what I wanted to do with my life, she validated everyone, she was like, well, that’s your life’s purpose. That’s why you’re here and it was just like, and so it really did bring me home to that that beloved self that part of myself and and it was, you know, that was the catalyst for me moving forward on my own healing and and development journey to do the work that I do today.
Victoria Volk 10:54
I love that story. I love that story, how it all came about how, how you kind of found your way back to you right? And I feel like for me, it’s just only starting to happen. And in the last five years or so, I actually had my palms read.
Victoria Shaw 11:12
Oh, cool.
Victoria Volk 11:13
A lot of people that know that there. Yeah, I was, because I was so desperate to just why am I feeling the way I’m feeling? Why is why am I not fulfilling this? Like you said, it’s like this, I was work at home mom, or stay at home mom, too. I did things on the side. But I was always home with my kids. And I just had this deeper longing to like, I’m meant for more than there’s more to life than just this. And not, I don’t mean to, you know, not just this as far as being a mother, but I just felt a deeper knowing. Right, but there was more gifts that I had, that I wasn’t expressing.
Victoria Shaw 11:53
And I think a lot of moms feel that way, especially in our culture and society, right. But I also think like, whenever we go through an identity shift, there’s a loss. And so you know, anyone who has kids knows, right that when you become a mom, everything about your world changes, like in a big, profound way. And there is you know that part of myself before I was a mom, that’s like we hold on what happened to me. And I think every single, you know, mother goes through this to some extent, and it’s about remembering, you’re still you too, and that we don’t have to, you know, go headlong into that, you know, identity of a mom, but also, you know, the way our society set up and a lot of the tasks and things that we have to do as a parent, especially if you decide to become a stay at home mom or you lose, you know, you lose one identity, maybe to gain another, you know, it’s tricky. And it’s about valuing valuing yourself through the process, valuing your choices, because I think, you know, sometimes motherhood is not, you know, it’s something we, when you’re pregnant, I remember everybody comes up to you and tells you is so excited that you’re having this baby, and you get so much attention. And then when you have the child, it’s just like, you go into the background, right? It’s like moms aren’t important moms, you know. And so we have to learn, I think, and I think a lot of, I think there’s a lot of shift towards this, how valuable the role of mothering is, but also that you don’t have to sacrifice and like sublimate your entire self to this process of raising your offspring. Because I think that’s really disempowering and unfortunate and woefully unnecessary.
Victoria Volk 13:30
And that sparked a thought on me, as I was hearing you talking, I can remember, you know, my kids were, at one point all three in diapers. And because my oldest was quite stubborn. And I just, I didn’t like, I didn’t go anywhere. And when I did, it was like it, my kids are pretty good. But you know, how just society in general, like your baby is crying, it’s like, can you please shut that baby up, or, you know, if you don’t feel comfortable even nursing your child in public, or there’s, you know, it’s just motherhood itself then is almost attacked, like you feel attacked as a mother even just being with your children in public sometimes. And so I think that just adds to the grief of that feeling of and resentment, right, like think it just breeds resentment in a lot of ways. I think I’m pretty sure it did for me, because I think that.
Victoria Shaw 14:19
Yeah, and I think a lot of people feel unsupported. A lot of moms feel unsupported. And, you know, I think all of this is ripe for change. But I know that you know, these are some of the pitfalls that people experience especially with those those little ones. And you know, it’s like all the responsibility is on you for everything that goes wrong, right? But there’s no support, there’s no help. There’s no like, I think a lot of us get lost, lost in that feeling. And again, for me, I would not roll back the clock at all being a mom has been one of the most powerful transformative experiences in my life and what’s been the catalyst for the work that I do now and I work with in my work, I do a lot of work with parents because for me A big part of my own personal and spiritual journey came from that that parenting dance and from, you know, I learning about myself about I’ve been doing a lot of my healing work from being a mom and being a parent. And so, I love to support other people that are interested in using the journey that way as well. So, I am so glad that I took this, this and I love my kids too, you know, there’s that. But it’s, it’s it can be really, really, really challenging. And again, there is that a lot of women I think, do feel that grief, that loss of self. And then of course to your grieving other things, if you’re grieving the loss of a parent, if you’re grieving a loss of things from your childhood, you know, that will be activated too, because what happens with our kiddos is, you know, as they go through certain ages and stages, that often triggers stuff within us. And if we did not feel parented, the way that we, you know, was ideal for us. And no one was parented perfectly, because we live in an imperfect world. And it’s just you’re not going to no parent even, you know, the best is one is not going to get it 100% right. So that stuff comes up for us as well. And that can be triggered, too, with, you know, when we come to the table of parenting our own kids. So while that can be a complicated process, I also like to look at it as an amazing opportunity for healing and growth.
Victoria Volk 16:19
I 100% agree, my kids have been a mirror for me.
Victoria Shaw 16:23
Yeah, I do that. And if you recognize it, you get so much more out of it. And you’re more effective parent too.
Victoria Volk 16:30
Right? And but it wasn’t I couldn’t see it when they were little. And you know, so I look back with regret in that regard. And I try not to I’m working on for, you know, forgiving myself for that.
Victoria Shaw 16:42
It’s it’s a good idea. But it takes time.
Victoria Volk 16:45
It does. It’s layers right. What did that experience for you when going through at the time when you found that intuitive healer, and you started to unpack that, what she shared with you. And your parenting like at the same time simultaneous?
Victoria Shaw 17:03
Yeah, it was all at the same time and a lot of it. One thing that I had recognized is that I’m an empath. So, empaths are people that feel when other people are feeling like it’s happening to them. And so they’re highly sensitive souls, they’re very compassionate souls, there’s more people open up now to their empathic gifts than ever before, because we are in a point of planetary transformation. And so a lot of people are, you know, awakening up to things that you know, five years ago would not have been an option for them, but it’s just everything’s accelerated. But so empaths are just these really great feelers and we have these big compassionate hearts. But the problem is, if you don’t, if you’re not careful, if you’re not aware, if you’re not grounded, and you don’t have scrupulous boundaries, a lot of empaths really feel that, like, if I can feel it, I’m supposed to heal it, I’m supposed to do something about it. And they can start to start taking on the pains of the world and become very overwhelmed, and also become confused about what’s theirs, and what’s someone else’s. And so that was sort of the story of my life. And I was getting all of this intuitive information from my empathic abilities. And also, just because like basically all my intuitive channels were turned on, it was and it was just like, TMI, like psychic TMI was too much, and I was overwhelmed all the time. And so, I couldn’t, you know, find the the pieces of gold and all of the flood of information. So for me, it was about learning about boundaries, it was learning about, you know, with your kids, that real important thing about letting them be on their own damn journey, and knowing that they’re gonna make mistakes, and they’re gonna, like, get dinged up and bruise, just like you did. And it’s part of the process of life. And your job is not to take away their pain, and your job is not to keep them locked in a padded room, your job is to support them on your journey. And the best way to do that is keep turning it tuning into that inner guidance and saying, okay, they have a journey, it may not be the path that I would choose for them to follow, but that’s not my choice. How am I being called to serve right now to support them on their journey and, and sometimes the intuition whether intuition tells us to do is way different than what our mind thinks we should do. Um, so that was a big part of it, learning boundaries, learning about that. And as I started to learn to respect my kids on their journey, a magical thing happened because I started to, like, respect my own journey in my own life on my own mistakes and the and the things that maybe didn’t go so well in my life, where I could start to release those losses and and have forgiveness for myself and the people in my world that maybe didn’t show up for me the way I wish they had. And again, it was a process. It did not necessarily happen overnight. It can, it usually doesn’t. But so it was just such a powerful journey. And then through all of that, I just kept hearing the call, you know, from my intuition of what those next steps were, and I just kept following them and one of those next steps for me was to pursue my counseling degree and you know, I I already had this doctorate in psychology as a research psychologist, but I didn’t have the clinical training. And, you know, my brain wanted me to go back and become a clinical psychologist, because that’s like way more prestigious, but my heart said, No, you know, you need to do this other thing. So I did that. And I got exactly the training that I needed. And you know, I’ve just been following those breadcrumbs one step at a time, because that’s how our intuition speaks to us.
Victoria Volk 20:23
This is so in line with the conversations I’ve been having with friends, books I’ve been reading. Conversation couldn’t be more timely. Thank you for sharing all of that. You have a quote, on your on your website, and I wrote it down. It says, our sorrows and wounds are healed only when we touch them with compassion. Buddha said that, yeah.
Victoria Shaw 20:52
There you go.
Victoria Volk 20:56
But it is on your website, and I wrote it down because it is beautiful. And and so how does your work as an intuitive counselor differ from other types of counselors?
Victoria Shaw 21:08
Absolutely, I think that anyone who’s doing any kind of healing or helping work well, whether they recognize it or not, they’re tuning into their inner wisdom, because that’s where all their really amazing truth wisdom comes from. And I think that, you know, the more we can do that, the more effective we are in pretty much anything we do, but especially if you’re in a healing or helping profession. And so I really encourage people in those fields to tune into your intuition more. And remember a lot of the tools and trainings and things that we all learn in school, at some point, somebody had to think those up. And a lot of times, not always, but many of those were, you know, intuitively guided things. But for me, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve, so to speak intuitively, and I’m really, I guy, I lead with that intuition. And so I have training, I’m trained in different modalities. But when I’m doing my counseling work, I always tune into my intuition first, and I let that be the guide. And then, of course, if if, you know, my intuition tells me to use this particular strategy or particular tool based on all the things that I’ve learned over the years, I will absolutely do that. But I lead with my intuition first, because I think that’s where the gold is. And I think that the more we can tune into our inner wisdom, that’s, you know, and we didn’t get it, we didn’t really talk about this yet. But for me, I believe that your intuition is your connection to your higher self, it’s your connection to spirit, it’s like the direct line to your soul. And when you can start to live your life from that place, oh, my God, everything changes. And most of the people that come to me are people that you know, have signed up for this journey. And you know, they’re really ready to get more than just sitting in a therapy room and like, talk and talk and talk in and in staying at the level of the mind, they want that big, you know, enlightening experience. And they really want to start to tune into their own inner wisdom, and they really want to start to live their life from a more soul based perspective. So they are all for that. Occasionally, when I’m doing the counseling work, someone just finds me on psychology today. And you know, that’s fine too, because I don’t put the gifts away just because people don’t want to hear them, I can, I can do it either way, but more and more people are coming for that full experience. And sometimes that’s me just giving guidance, I’m not giving advice, which isn’t, which come from my mind and what I think people should do, but giving guidance, meaning I’m tuning into their highest wisdom, and you know, into their soul, their spirit guides, whoever you want to think about it. And I’m becoming a conduit for them to you know, hear the call of their soul. And that’s a big part of what I do both in counseling and in my you know, spiritual coaching work. And that’s like one of my favorite things to do. And sometimes that guidance will give me tools and strategies that they can use sometimes, you know, that will give me a particular if it’s in a counseling setting, or a content specific counseling modality that we might want to try. But again, I always leave with my intuition.
Victoria Volk 24:06
So, what would you say to someone listening and griever listening? You know, we’ve talked a lot your higher self and and I, like, I’ve been really digging into all that stuff myself lately. Um, what would you tell a listener, a griever? Listening? Yes. How to know. And how to have the awareness as to what should their next step be if they’re ready to get help? Because, and yeah, I’ll let you answer that.
Victoria Shaw 24:35
Okay. Yeah, that’s a great question. And there’s a lot of questions embedded in that one little question. First of all, it’s different for everybody, right? Because we are all beautifully, you know, unique. And so what will work for you now in this moment of time is specific to you, and only you and it could change in a minute because the only constant in this world is changed. So that said, you know, in terms of seeing Help first of all you’ll know if you’re uncomfortable if you’re feeling like I don’t want to sit with this anymore I’m so ready then please you know move forward and and get some support and support can come in lots of different ways from lots of different places you know sometimes we’re afraid to kind of and you get this a lot with therapy or pn and also at the intuitive work where people don’t you know, they’re afraid that the answer will like destroy them and it’ll be too much. So always trust your you know, I would, I would be kind to yourself with those fears. Remember that a good therapist or a good helper is going to go with you gently. And that usually the thing that we don’t want to open the thing that we don’t want to address once we crack the lid and let it breathe, it actually gets better not worse, right? It’s like if you ever like a really stinky, stinky stinky pot and you just keep it closed and everything keeps festering like the longer you keep the lid on the groceries gonna smell if you take the lid off in a supportive and loving environment, you know, maybe outside if it’s a sticky pot and you let it breathe a little bit then you can kind of get in there and clean it out. And so therapy works this way and you know, in terms of tuning into who to work with and and how to do that work always follow your intuition if something doesn’t feel right it probably isn’t and so go where you feel drawn go where you feel called go where you feel safe and comfortable and yes, there are always times when we’re challenged and we feel a little bit like uncomfortable too so you you want to start from that place of comfort so if something is uncomfortable, you have a relationship with somebody else who can hold that space for you and you probably know this from the work that you do because we need to be comfortable have a backdrop of comfort right before we want to start touching the uncomfortable that makes sense or at least it’s one way to do it some people just like to rip the band aid off and and dive into the acid bath and do it that way but that’s just not how I work personally I’m all about you know, being comfortable and the other thing that comes through and I’m sure you’ve addressed this before in your podcast but it’s coming through to share now you know grief comes in many different ways and many different forms and it’s different for everyone and you know it can be you know, it can be the loss of a cat it could be the loss of an identity it can be it can be so it can be the loss of a significant loved one it can be so many things you know grief happens to us all the time throughout the lifespan because again the only constant is change and so we’re always shifting and growing you know those grief moments are just so right for our own personal and spiritual development and if you can hold yourself through them and get support and you know come to that experience with as much consciousness as you can muster in that present moment it is just it’s an amazing opportunity for your spirit to shine and for you to actually get to a place of experiencing even more joy and the word that comes through is enlightenment in your life.
Victoria Volk 27:57
So much goodness in there. So, what would you say then to someone who feels like well you know what, yeah, I have grief but I also have trauma. I had traumatic experiences happened to me, how does that change their grieving experience if they’re so in that identity of probably more of a victim I suppose. If you’ve had like traumatic experiences versus grief of you know a loved one or something you may not feel like a victim as much maybe I don’t know. I don’t want to compare because that’s not what we do in grief recovery work we don’t compare lives but just the word trauma in itself.
Victoria Shaw 28:43
First of all loss is always traumatic right it’s it’s very rare to have any kind of loss where there isn’t a little bit of trauma and trauma is something that sometimes you know, we think of traumas big things like being abused or you know, being in a car accident or losing a loved one or and those things are definitely traumatic but we get traumas all the time big and small throughout our life and for me traumas anywhere where you know the outer world doesn’t match your inner magnet magnificence and there’s a spiritual being in human form which I think we all are there’s a lot of opportunities for those little things and bruises to happen over the course of our life and you know so trauma can be like you know, I don’t know if we discussed this example before but what comes to mind is you know, you’re four years old and you really you’re at the toy store and you really want that toy for a fire truck and mom rather than just saying no, I’m sorry, honey, you know, we have to wait for Christmas shames you and says we you shouldn’t want that and that’s too much money and like you’re a greedy little child to ask for that. So that’s really traumatic and we we have those experiences unfortunately or fortunately all the time throughout our life. And so, you know, we talk about trauma, it’s important to realize you might have trauma that you don’t even realize because you’re not identifying those things as traumatic experiences when in fact They can be. But we also know you know, in the clinical literature that people that have had a lot of what we call big t traumas, or a lot of little t traumas, firetruck is a little cheap trauma. You know, a rape is a big t trauma, but they’re both equally traumatic in their own special ways. Those people can have more complicated grief, where, you know, a grieving loss just stirs up a lot of other kind of trauma. And you know, I often say that trauma is the gift that keeps on giving. Meaning that we have many opportunities to keep working on it again and again, through our life, because it will often become re re triggered and we all become re traumatized. And, you know, from the perspective of someone who’s suffering, this seems like a bad thing. But again, it’s from a spiritual perspective, it’s just your soul giving you more opportunities to explore the issue so that you can grow and it’s really a beautiful thing because you’re able to explore that from different perspectives until eventually you’re able to find peace with it. And and that’s to me what the healing process really is, it’s not to be forced, but eventually we start to find peace with these losses and peace with all of our human experiences. And it can take you 10 minutes, I don’t know anyone for whom is taken 10 minutes or it can take you, you know, 12 lifetimes. But that’s, that’s the ultimate, you know, goal. I think for most of us.
Victoria Volk 31:20
I want to get your thoughts on something because I read something today, and it really struck me. And it’s, I think it’s something that’s going to stick with me. And it’s often something I guess something I’ve wondered, but I never really like you know, we read something in the perfect timing.
Victoria Shaw 31:36
Right? Always.
Victoria Volk 31:38
So, I want to ask you, I want to get your perspective of this. So, I read that so people will say well, do you have to suffer in order to grow and then what I read was that by our own thoughts, we attract suffering like we put ourselves in positions and situations and circumstances it’s it’s like an addiction. Yeah, suffering. And one thing that I struggled with for over 30 years was feeling as though I am I’m just here to suffer. Oh, you know, because I’ve suffered for so long, like just in my own mind and my own thought process in my just, you know, all these different things and it’s like, Why do these things keep happening to me right over and over and so I want her I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Victoria Shaw 32:32
Alright, so for you specifically, if you don’t mind what I would say is if you can shift that belief system you’re already shifting it so it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a done deal, but maybe someone else who has that belief system will want to hear this to you know, understand that life is happening for me, not to me, and again, doesn’t mean that you have to like it, it doesn’t mean that you can’t be pissed, please have whatever feelings that you’re having, because that will help you release that belief system. But yeah, if we have a belief system, that life is about suffering, or that things are happening to me, meaning latest torturing me, life is against me, life is not against you, you know, there’s a higher part of yourself that planned every damn experience you have in your life for your own learning and growth, to help you remember the magnificence of who and what you really are. And is suffering necessary on that journey? No, is it the way that most of human life has worked up until now? Yeah. And you know, if we go back to Buddhists because we quoted the Buddha earlier, you know, what the Buddha would say is suffering is a mental construct, it’s all in your mind, it’s how you approach life and you create suffering by the way that you approach your life and the thoughts that you have and your resistance to that deep flow of life and just the fact that things are happening as they’re meant to happen. And again, you know, a spiritual bypass here would be to say, Well I have to be happy with everything No you are human my friend and it’s so it’s more about you know, being kind and sitting with that humaneness while at the same time holding that that broader perspective and so yes when we get into that victim mentality if that’s all we think we are and we just think life is just here to kick my ass and I this is how it goes and I don’t deserve more and we become resentful of it this can keep us stuck in more crap happening for us and more misery but the way out of that is not to kick yourself over the head even more the way out of it is to just notice Oh wow, you know, this is of course I would think this way given my life experience and everything I knew up until now and of course, now I’m starting to see glimmers that there could be something else and let me follow that and let me be as tight as heck to myself in that process as I explore this, and I allow that new awareness to come in for me, and then it will, I promise every single time.
Victoria Volk 34:43
You hit on something, I don’t know if you set it exactly, but like for me personally like gaining new knowledge, new tools, following the my intuition of what I needed to read what I needed to experience what I needed to I’ve drawn people circumstances, books, things to my life that I needed to ever get to a level of awareness that I have now about my emotional, inner climate.
Victoria Shaw 35:12
And everything happens in divine timing. So, you will always be led to those things that just the right time and then the more you’re open to it, and the more you start following, and the more you start listening to the inner wisdom, and they usually come as breadcrumbs, it doesn’t usually come the way your mind would like it like the complete answer all at once for the next 50 years, right. They’re usually little glimmers of try this, follow this, maybe you should go talk to that person, maybe it’s time for you to go visit your uncle, right? I mean, that was a profound experience that you had. But when we start following, and listening to these inner nudging things, they get louder, because we start to like, agree to, you know, co create our lives with our inner wisdom. And so more and more you will, you will be guided in more and more that guidance will lead you to a place of calm and peace and center. And if there are struggles to be had, they’ll be you know, streamlined for just the ones that you need to get the most, you know, bang out of your buck. And our inner wisdom will also show us how to navigate those, like struggles which everybody has, you know, the best way possible.
Victoria Volk 36:17
Yeah, gosh, I’m loving this conversation. What would be one thing that either others did, or that you found was helpful for you. When you probably just maybe before you found that intuitive? counselor? You know, or know, the doctor intuitive doctor, correct?
Victoria Shaw 36:38
Yeah, I mean, I found a lot of people. But yeah, before that particular experience, you know, I think there was a period where it was really helpful for me to connect with other people that were going through the same thing that I was, and having that same story, and you know, feeling those losses. And I think that that can be really important for people to feel heard by other people that are having a similar experience. But I also think that you don’t want to get some people, that’s where they get stuck. That’s where they get lost their identity becomes I’m the one who’s had trauma, I’m the mother who has lost her sense of identity, or, you know, are, I’m the person I’m the motherless child, right. And so we want to be really careful about the identities that we take on because once we identify with something, it becomes locked, it becomes part of our sense, our false sense of self. And it can keep us from growing and changing and continuing to align with our highest guidance and, and growing in this human container. So that was really helpful for me to feel heard. But I also think and to know that I wasn’t alone in this, but then there was also those other people that were starting to show me the way out of it, and the show me the way through it. And that’s a different thing. And so we just don’t want to get kind of locked into our pain stories. But again, that pain just wants to be heard. And for me, in that earlier phase of my journey, it was just so validating to have people go, you know, yeah, of course, you feel this way. And reading books about other moms that had felt that was really empowering and powerful, and helped me not feel like I was alone, which is, I think something a lot of people really want and need.
Victoria Volk 38:09
I tried to bring hope in the work that I do. When I’m communicating, I want there is another side to this, you know if if I can find it, so can you with, I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard just terrible stories of how people found in my work that I do grief recovery, and how it’s changed and transform their lives. But I see it though, on social media, too. It’s where it’s almost like, sometimes like when like traditional grief support groups where there’s no action, where it’s like you said, you’re just repeating the same story, I see that a lot online. It’s almost like a support group, but it’s online.
Victoria Shaw 38:50
Yeah, and it can be like after and it’s interesting, because a lot of people I’ve worked with through grief and particularly loss of loved ones will say or sometimes I work with a lot of special needs parents too. So that’s another form of grief when you’re grieving the loss of the child that you thought you were going to have. And every parent goes through that a little bit because you know, if we’re paying attention our kids are now not the idealized things that we imagined they would be before we had them but when you have a special needs child that’s even or chronically ill child that can be even more so. And people will say oftentimes, you know those support groups, you know, they they can feel so good at first but oftentimes when people are paying attention to a certain point they’re like I’m done with it. It’s over I’ve gotten as much as I could get from this now I’m ready for something more because they don’t want that to be their story for life. I’m the mom of a special needs child and that’s gonna be it forever right? We want we want to be heard through our human experiences but we also want that flexibility to grow and change and and know on the highest spiritual level and this may or may not resonate with your listeners, but I’m gonna say it anyway, know that that’s who you really are. That’s just the little cloaks that you’re wearing through various times of your human experience and so I think that that is super important that you know you don’t get lost in that.
Victoria Volk 40:09
I’m like Yep, amen I resonate with that. I like to look at grief is like a veil that we wear. And we it’s you can’t see the mirrors in front of you. And you can’t see yourself when you look in the mirror either.
Victoria Shaw 40:24
Right, but you don’t have to wear that veil forever, if you choose not to when you’re ready, just like other kinds of grieving, right, it’s fine to take that off. And it’s not a disservice, especially when you’re grieving loss of another human. You know, if a loved one, it’s not a disservice to your loved one to move forward. Right. And we didn’t talk about this yet. But it’s my belief that when we die, we go back to spirit form, we don’t go away, the soul is eternal. And I believe this mostly because I have that ability to connect with entities beings and spirits that are not new physical form. And so that it has been very validating to me through my own experience, but our loved ones, they want us to be happy sometimes, especially when it’s been a complicated human relationship. And sometimes, you know, we have that where we lose someone, but that relationship wasn’t perfect. And sometimes when they die, we either think we have to pretend like it was perfect to honor their their passing or, you know, worse yet, we can’t ever process our losses now or our grievances now, because they’re gone. Neither of those things are true, you can continue to do your work, even with those deceased loved ones after they’re out of their bodies. And in the work that I do, I often see that happening. And I sometimes see our deceased loved ones showing up to facilitate that work that we still need to do because they often have a broader perspective, once they’re not encumbered by their human human word. I don’t know if it’s coming through fallacies, frailties, whatever, you know, we don’t always see things perfectly crystal clearly while we are still in human form, so we can continue to work on stuff, after our loved ones his have passed, we can say everything that we wish that we had said to them when they were living when they’re deceased, and they will hear us and they will often hear us without the same, you know, defensiveness that they might have heard us when they were in human form. So sometimes it’s advantageous, that you know, we wait until they’re past to work through some of this stuff. And you know, honoring a relationship and honoring someone is honoring them and their human imperfection. So it’s okay, if you have mixed feelings about someone who’s passed, you can still love them, they can still love you, even if all of the details of that human relationship were imperfect.
Victoria Volk 42:35
Oh, this is so good. I’m so glad that we connected, you know, and I believe too, you know, as a kid, you know, I saw my dad in his casket and as a kid, I just, there was no conversation about death or grief or anything. And so, you know, he was put in the ground, and I thought that’s what happens when you die. You’re put in the ground. And I didn’t have never felt that spiritual connection. I never felt a spiritual connection to a higher being or much less to myself until probably 2014. Yeah, I mean, it just took me so long to come around.
Victoria Shaw 43:14
It’s normal and natural to sometimes we look back in our lives, and we think something’s wrong with us, because it took us so long. Again, remember, divine timing, and we get the memo. It’s just the right moment. And sometimes I’m someone who has a late wake her up in a lot of sense. And that’s okay, that’s beautiful, because I needed every experience that I had in my life to get to where I am now. And I’m grateful to everyone and you can’t force that kind of feeling. I just feel it naturally. But just know that that’s there. That you know, every experience that you’ve had in this human life is supporting you to this moment now whether whether that feels right or not. And you know, there’s no, it’s the human mind that wants to say there’s a particular timeline there isn’t. And we need every experience that we have, and it’s perfect. You know, timing, whenever whatever is happening now is exactly what’s supposed to be so I hope that helps.
Victoria Volk 44:10
No, and I can say that now. I fully believe that now and I do feel a higher connection to myself into you know, yeah, but yeah.
Victoria Shaw 44:19
It’s worth it, right? You need, you need to get you to that place. And if you said probably to yourself, you know, 2030 years ago, listen, baby, this is the way you have to see things you probably would have like thrown a drink in your face. Right? You were because you weren’t ready.
Victoria Volk 44:36
I would have been drunk.
Victoria Shaw 44:40
Okay. Interesting that that particular image came through. Sorry for that. Its how the intuition
works.
Victoria Volk 44:47
Well, my life was a train wreck. So that very much was my story.
Victoria Volk 44:57
Yeah, I just it’s been a long track again when I was going straight
Victoria Shaw 45:03
Yeah and it’s it’s not meant to be and we often learn through these human experiences and you’ll be able to carry for and I’m sure you already do in the work that you do that understanding that you know even the trade rock can serve you it can serve you and it can get you there and again no part of human life is wasted and human experience is wasted it’s just that that judge everything.
Victoria Volk 45:27
So, what would you say is probably unhelpful things that people do for themselves or others who are looking to suffer who are looking to support others in grief in particular and maybe trauma as well.
Victoria Shaw 45:44
Yep. Unhelpful judging yourself judging how you’re having the experience judging yourself for judging yourself if you have that level of awareness right because it’s going to be different for everyone to whatever you’re feeling right now is just perfect for you and judgments going to shut down the process the other thing that can sometimes be unhelpful both for yourself as others is like that kind of you know spiritual bypassing kind of deal where you’re like I should feel grateful I should feel happy I should focus on the positives I should I should I should I should I should there’s no shoulds in the land of grieving there’s no there’s no shoulds in life really that service it should just judgment in disguise. And you know, again, you have to have your experience because Earth is an experiential realm we learn here by being human so be kind to yourself know whatever you’re experiencing is just right. If you have trouble being kind to yourself seek support find someone else to teach you and to be kind to you in the meantime and also it come through to say don’t try to go it alone. right a lot of times we believe that we got to do everything ourselves and that if we don’t do it ourselves it’s not good it’s not right but you know, this is Earth is a shared realm This is a shared journey. And so you know, it’s important to allow yourself to find and, and and connect with with significant others, be it friends, be it healers Be it helpers you don’t want to give your power away to those folks but you do want to know that you don’t have to do it alone and they’re supported every leg in the journey and if you open yourself up for it, it will always come could be a book could be a podcast could be in lots of different places you know, whatever your comfort zone is but you know be open to the fact that if you are open to that support support will always be there for you and you deserve that.
Victoria Volk 47:37
I can attest to that. Yeah, that was my experience. What would you say to someone listening to and I’m just as curious how to connect a lot departed loved one and then how to know when you are?
Victoria Shaw 47:53
Oh, I love that question. Okay, so connecting with your loved ones is a little bit like connecting with your intuition and that the first thing I’m going to say is Look, if you talk to your loved one they hear you okay and even if you’re mad at your loved one don’t worry about that because again, they don’t hear you with their ears like they did in human form if you had some grievances with your mom and now she passed away and you’re bitching at her you’re not going to get the same response back that you did when you were both in bodies and if you do that I promise you as your mind your mom is passed over she’s she’s not in that realm of pitching back at you and I hope that word was okay if not I can say it again in a cleaner language but um so that’s the first thing so but you can always talk to your loved ones they always hear you sometimes we have this feeling right if we don’t hear back right away or they loved us because we have that deep sense of loss and we feel that they’re not here and they’re not there they’re always even if you can’t feel them or see them or connect with them if you send it out there they’ll get the memo Okay, so So know that first and foremost that you can always talk to them and then if you imagine them talking back and that voice is loving and kind it is probably them if again they’re sounding like they’re beating you up or telling you how terrible you are or that’s probably the voice in your head. Because you know when our deceased loved ones move back into spirit form, they’re not so judgy anymore they’re not like perfected yet so again sometimes when people talk about spirit guides and they’re like it’s got to be my aunt Marge and I’m like she may be looking over you but your spirit guides actually are you know guidances of even higher levels that they’ve transcended the need to be in human form all together but like our once we leave the human body we do have a broader perspective and so you know, you’ll feel a loving kind energy so know that you can talk to them know that they’re listening know that you’re probably not imagining it nine out of 10 times you’re not imagining it. Oftentimes our loved ones will show us signs in the environment and people just know and if it brings you pleasure to think that you know every time you see a bird, it’s your mom, you know, coming back to say hello, and then do just go with that. You know, don’t overthink it, like enjoy that. It’s beautiful. And by the way, if you have that thought that You’re helping your deceased loved ones find a way to connect with you, which is what they want to do. So you know, if you imagine if you believe that the birds are that way, even if they didn’t get that idea yet, they’ll start doing that for you anyway. They’ll be like, oh, okay, that’s how you want me to communicate with you. I’ll be a bird. So it’s, it’s magical. And you asked one other question, I’m trying to find that in my brain. So hold on, Oh, you didn’t ask this. But this also comes through another way that our loved ones love to communicate with us is in our dreams. Because when we are in the sleep state, our minds are quiet, and we’re much more receptive. So if you dream that a loved one came and gave you a hug, or I used to always dream about my grandfather, that he was like, still alive. And then I’d be like, what, wait, he’s dead. I recognize now those were times that he was visiting me in my dreams and just saying, hello.
Victoria Volk 50:48
I don’t recall ever having one of those dreams.
Victoria Shaw 50:58
It’s different for everyone. We have a sense to write that our love. I mean, if there’s a lot of unfinished business, that our loved ones can’t hear us, if they’re not here, that they’re not, you know, why are they speaking to me, that’s a sign for you to heal your own grief. And that place of feeling abandoned by them, or whatever feelings came up at the time of the loss because they are there. And you know, sometimes healing that too well will help you make that connection. And it’s important to know too, and I hope this makes sense that you know, everyone’s on this human journey. And when we leave our bodies, we continue, you know, with a little bit of school about processing and unpacking what went on in our human life. And so you here on Earth, when you are working through whatever grievances or traumas or issues that you have with that loved one, will help them on their journey as well. And so you know, someone that leaves their body too soon, or leaves their family too soon, you know, like, they they may go out thinking like, Oh my gosh, like, what’s wrong with me that I can’t stick around and support my family, and the family might get the memo? Oh, my gosh, you know, this person left me too soon, they abandon me, right? Like as you work through your issues that work through those as well. And all of those things are ultimately misbeliefs. Because at the end of the day, again, everything happens exactly as it should. But it doesn’t always feel that way, and it doesn’t have.
Victoria Volk 52:17
I can speak from experience. And when I was with my uncle, I felt the most connected to my dad and I ever had.
Victoria Shaw 52:26
But that’s because it was your dad prompting you because he had, he had unfinished business with that family line. And he really wanted before your uncle passed, for you to be the conduit of connecting reconnecting all of you guys back together, and he wanted to help you with that. for him. It was important for him it was important for your uncle, and it was important for you. So, he was very much prompting you and guiding you and he says good job at listening if he wants you came through just a little. But I think the longer conversation would be for another day and another context.
Victoria Volk 53:06
I’m just like, well, I got chills.
Victoria Shaw 53:10
Okay, and so that shows for listeners another way that you would know chills are amazing body signal when you feel that in your body chills is one of my favorite intuitive markers. Victoria because you can’t make it up. Right? You can’t make that up. When we feel the chills. It’s like oh my god. And I have a colleague and friend, she gets the chills for me. Like whenever we’re together and I asked her something, she’ll be chills, chills. And it’s like such it’s so validating. So yes, that’s another way that you’ll know it’s sometimes you’ll have that full body experience that you can’t make up and that’s a marker that Yes, he did come through and he’s around you all the time. And sometimes it’s our own grief that blocks our ability to connect with our loved ones and to know that they’re there to feel their love, but that’s okay, too. It’s all part of the process.
Victoria Volk 53:54
I would agree with that. Yeah. What I’ve been learning, and I actually got chills earlier in this interview.
Victoria Shaw 54:03
Pay attention to that. It’s so powerful.
Victoria Volk 54:06
Oh man, this is so so so great.
Victoria Shaw 54:09
Thank you
Victoria Volk 54:10
Is there anything else you feel the listeners need to hear?
Victoria Shaw 54:17
Yeah, I think just that grief is a natural normal part of life. And you know, sometimes we feel like we’re the only one it’s happening to and that is happening to us like there’s something wrong with us for either the way that we’re responding to the grief or that you know, we had the loss in the first place or you know, all of the above Be kind to yourself, be patient with yourself. No, it’s a it’s a process of life but it’s not fun. It’s not easy. But it’s also can be if you if you take the challenge and amazing conduit to transformation and growth and in that it’s a really, really good and powerful thing. And that nothing in life, like we said before is wasted and so it’s the more that we bring the light of consciousness to our human experiences that we can grow and change and transform.
Victoria Volk 55:04
Amen, I agree so good. So, if people want to connect with you, where can they find you?
Victoria Shaw 55:11
Alright, so I have a couple of different things going on I do one to one sessions with folks all over the world and also intuitive counseling sessions in Connecticut where I’m a licensed professional counselor. And to do either of those things you would find me at my website which is Victoria Shaw, intuitive calm, so pretty easy My name plus the word intuitive calm and then I also have a lot of free offerings and teachings that I love to do on my website I have this is not free, it’s a paid course I have a paid course on activating your intuition which is a self paced online course with some tools and strategies to help you leverage the power of your inner wisdom and tap into your intuition more I also have a podcast which that is completely free intuitive connection podcast where I talk all about tools and strategies to awaken your intuition and all topics, intuition and spirituality plus I have a lot of amazing amazing guests and I’ve also started doing some fun readings on the show which has been really cool as well because oftentimes, you know, we we hear ourselves through other people’s stories, and let’s see what else I have a pretty active presence on instagram. Victoria, Shaw intuative is my handle and on Facebook and I am in the process of building an amazing Facebook community intuitive connection community where I’ve been doing a lot of free teachings, weekly readings and visits with all of the guests from our podcast episodes so that is a really fun place to find me as well so that’s intuitive connection community on Facebook and I think that covers it.
Victoria Volk 56:49
Lots of places to find you. That’s awesome. Thank you thank you thank you so much for being a guest on my podcast and I have no doubt that what people needed to hear came through today and that it’ll be beneficial thing I really enjoyed though.
Victoria Shaw 57:07
Thank you, its my pleasure and my joy as well. Thank you so much.
Victoria Volk 57:12
All right. Well, if you love this episode, I would love for you to give Victoria Shaw’s episode a five star review. Tune in next week for another episode and until then, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Sexual Trauma |
Katie Chonacas | Loss of Innocence & Lessons Along the Way
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Katie speaks up, for the first time publicly, about a moment that wrote on the slate of how she would show up in the world moving forward.
Follow along, as Katie shares how the very decision to speak up alone, has helped her to begin to heal years and years of emotional dis-ease. It takes an incredible amount of courage to speak about our trauma, and also, for the first time in this very public way.
As you listen, please send Katie some energetic love, and perhaps, by the end, you’ll come to the same conclusion as Katie; we can’t heal what we don’t acknowledge. And, we can’t heal what we’re unwilling to allow ourselves to feel.
Through reflecting on her life, she’s also been able to connect the dots of what happened to her, to certain behaviors and beliefs as she got older and the body of work she would create as an actress, voice-over, music creator, and artist.
It is my hope that this episode inspires courage, and also, that this message reaches teen girls and boys. As parents, we must have open communication about what “No” means, what boundaries are, how to protect oneself, the importance of a friend “buddy system,” etc. And, open communication also helps your kids know that, as their parent (or even mentor), you’re a safe person with whom to share these kinds of experiences. I’ll talk more about this in the Takeaways & Reflections episode (episode 27).
In the meantime, listen with care, and then go have a much-needed convo with your teen, if you’re a parent/mentor/guardian. And, if you haven’t established a level of trust and safety, now’s the time to start!
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Katie:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Katie Chonacas. And she will be speaking to us today about her experience being raped, and adolescent. Katie, welcome to the podcast.
Katie Chonacas 00:18
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Victoria, I appreciate you.
Victoria Volk 00:21
Thank you for being here. Introduce yourself, where are you from? How did you get to? What made you decide that you wanted to speak today?
Katie Chonacas 00:34
Sure. Um, so originally, my family is Greek. I’m from Michigan, I come from a big Greek family. And, you know, my little girl dreams and desires was always to go to California and be involved in the entertainment industry on so many different platforms. And so now I’m by Coastal, I live in Los Angeles and New York City. And because of what’s happening in the world, right now, we can literally be anywhere in the world. So I’ve actually, I drove home to Detroit. And I’m here now, for a little while, and I’ve been reflecting in It’s wild, because right now we’re in 2020. And just came to me this past week that we’re in 2020. And I left home in pursuit of those blueprints 20 years ago. So it’s a full, full circle of two decades. And now I can, you know, look at the blueprint that I designed and created look at the experiences that I’ve had thus far with travel with my career, modeling, acting music, you know, every which way and in the arts, and kind of turn over a new leaf as a young adult, and just really look at, you know, my circumstances as a child, through that lens, the journey thus far, kind of reflecting closing on that chapter, and just planting new seeds to create a new blueprint from a young adult lens with the experience that I’ve had, and, you know, forward to the next two decades.
Victoria Volk 02:06
I love how you describe that new blueprint. So, would you take us back to the first blueprint?
Katie Chonacas 02:17
Sure. Sure. Well, thank you for holding the space and having me on to share. I’ve been in isolation about it for so many years, and I’ve been in isolation, a lot of times, and I listened to some of your podcast episodes, and I love the six myths. And one is, you know, when you try to go isolate, or go to a closet, or go to your room and do it alone, and, and, you know, we’re taught these things. And, yeah, I feel like I was that as well, like, go to your room. Or if you’re, you know, your baby, or, you know, go to your room and, or you’re grounded, like you’re crying, it’s like, go to your room. And it’s like, even now, like, if I’m crying, it’s like, you know, you’re almost edited out, like, you’re crying. It’s like, God put an age on crying. You know, I’m an empath. I’m an artist, I’m very sensitive. And, yeah, so anyhow, my, my experience was, I was 14 years old, and I was in high school, I was a freshman in high school, and I was on the cross-country team, and I was at a public school, a great, you know, public school. And, and, basically, I had cross country practice. And when we had cross country practice, the boy’s locker room was to the left, and the girl’s locker room was on the right, and we, you know, we had practice at the same time. So, when we went out to run the boys were, you know, on the football field warming up, and we would be going for our warmup, and we would do our run, and we would come back. And when we’re coming back, the boys would be finishing up and then you know, we would all be in our lockers. And then, you know, after you change and take a shower, and everything, we kind of all got out at the same time. And there were the side doors to, you know, be picked up from your parents or walk home or ride a bike or however you come and go from school, right? And there was this one boy, and he fancied me and it was at the beginning of freshman year. And there was like cutesy stuff back and forth. You know, you know, you’re you’re 14 years old, and you’re like, Oh, you know, and you’re getting attention from a boy and he’s hot and he’s like, maybe the captain of the football team or in my mind, he was or, you know, that’s the fantasy of it, right? Or, I don’t know, and, and he walked me to my locker, you know, like, walk me to my locker to get something like a book or something that I needed to take home but it was, you know, to spend the moment spend the time in a safe space at a public school, right, just to go to your locker, to go through the school to get to the locker and then I Close the locker door, and he puts his varsity jacket on me. And he looked at me and he, you know, asked me to be as girl like, he wanted me to be as girl now, right? And I was just like, you know, he’s taller than me, I was looking at it. And I felt special, you know, you feel that feeling. And so, we’re walking back and the bathroom before, you know, we pass all the trophies in the lunchroom to get back to the lockers, he pushed me into the girl’s bathroom, he pushed me into the girls bathroom. And like, he just started like, you know, kissing me and groping me, and I’m just like, I’m like, whoa, and I’m just kind of like, later, like kissing him and going with it. And I’m just like, Okay, and then like, it’s like, it happened so fast, it was just like, a couple seconds. And then and then he’s and then he like, pushes me to the handicap bathroom to the last stall, which was, you know, the biggest stall, which was the handicapped bathroom. And sidebar, I feel like that’s caused a lot of psychological mental trauma on my mind, that we can discuss later if we come back around to it. But he basically just, like, pushes me on the ground, and like, starts, you know, obviously, like, just doing what he needs to do really quick. I mean, kids move fast. So it was like, it was like a fast thing. And I’m like, No, and I’m like, No, and I’m like, pushing, and he’s, like, big, and he’s a football player. Right? And he’s, like, bigger than me. So I’m, like, pushing him off me. And I’m just like, no, in my head is like hitting the concrete on, you know, on the, on the wall. And, and so like, you know, it’s like, he was just on me, I mean, it’s just like, habit, and who’s just like, then it was just, like, done, it was like, quick, and, and so like, that was it. And, and I like went home, and I was like, in so much pain, and I was bleeding. And it was like, in my upstairs bathroom, which is right here. And, you know, I’m like, in pain, right? And, and that night, it was it was a Friday it because it was the first it was the first it was the first homecoming game of my freshman year, in high school, I started off my freshman year in high school. And it was the first home game and I remember like; I must have gotten dropped off. And I was by myself. And I remember just like walking, and you pass like, you know, you arrive if you pass all the bleachers. And like all the like, popular cool kids or whatever, you know, they’re like, at the very end, like in like, the very end you like walk pack all will be reshares. And so I’m like, and then like there’s like, you know, like five or seven of my girlfriends who are like, you know, my girlfriend’s, and I’m going, and I’m like, I’m walking up and I’m walking up towards them. And there was this one girl. And they were they were they were boyfriend girlfriend, but they broke up. And, and she, she just like she just like, glared at me. She does, she does glare, she just glared at me. I was 14 years old, these were my girlfriend’s One moment. And then the next moment, none of them are my friend, they all took her side, they were all silent to me, she glared at me. And in that moment, and on that day, not only was I raped, I was taken advantage of, but I was shamed and blamed by females and I and I took it on. And I took on that responsibility of being blamed and being shamed and feeling so small and so invisible, like it was my fault. You know. And so that was, that was the beginning of my freshman year, happened on Friday. And I ended up sitting up top, because on the other, another person, they probably like, run off and cry or something, I don’t know. But like I, I just went like a couple bleachers above and, like sat there, and I just sat there, and I sat there through the whole game, but, and I remember being able to, like, sit there, but I was like, numb and just felt very paralyzed. And I feel like a lot of times I’ve been able to freeze and be in situations and just kind of like, take it you know, and just sit there and in, in whatever the abuse was and just like sit there and because I have strength and strong will and and I’m just like present in there, but it was very, you know, diminishing and, and like I said I was I was 14 years old. So, it, it was a lot. It was a lot for one person in one day that that really you know, shape shifted. Some of the choices that I’ve made and some of the behavioral patterns and some of the things of how I’ve been how I’ve been you know my life thus far.
Victoria Volk 09:56
I’m so sorry that happened to you I felt my own body tense up as you were talking. I have my own stories. This one is about yours. I’ve heard. So I just want you to know that my heart goes out to you. I know it’s a really difficult thing to navigate.
Katie Chonacas 10:40
Hmm, yeah, especially when you take it on. And like, I’m a very intense, loyal person, you know, and I’m very strong. So I’m like, oh, like, it’ll just, you know, go away, or, like, never happened and happy wasn’t there and you bury a deep, you just keep burying and deep. And when you make the choice to bury it deep, and you just keep burying it deeper and deeper. It just becomes like a habit that you do, and you think it’s like the right thing to do. And you justify that choice. Because you didn’t have someone to talk to, like you didn’t, you know, not let anyone wasn’t there like, Well, actually, what happened was, um, I had summer school that summer, so the whole year passed. And then I had summer school. And then I got my first boyfriend. And he was a senior. And because of the, the intimacy of it, obviously, I was able to share and tell him what happened. And so he and all his senior friends, they’re all like the popular guys, him and all his senior friends showed up at his house, showed up at his house with me in the car with baseball bats, and I remember his, he wouldn’t come to the door, he wouldn’t come outside, it was his mother. And it was it was his mother. And so there’s, um, you know, the town where I’m from, and there’s like, the wealthy side. And then there’s like the old side. And so he was on the old side. So, the homes were a bit smaller than the new side, you know, my dad, he designed and did the blueprint, an architect and had built our home, you know, here, my mom, and so on, on the old tracks on the old side. His mom was at the door, and I feel like he came from a broken family. So like, I mean, I didn’t know this when I was 14, but reflecting on it now, he comes from a broken family with without a dad, he, you know, had his mom, his mom was at the door, his mom was needing to deal with these seniors, with the baby with baseball bats at his door. And so, his mom very well knows what he did, right? But you would think at that state that a mom would go to the school, right? But she didn’t want her own child to be in trouble. She was suffering. She was scared. She probably couldn’t handle her own child. You know, he was troubled. And obviously he took that out on on me, right? Not only in football, but but on like me, like another. He was a child. I was a child. We were we were kids. He was he was in my grade. He was a freshman as well. abrasive and aggressive on to me, it doesn’t matter how attractive you are doesn’t matter how cute you are, you know? Like, like, no means no, you know, um, but anyway, so in the story of, you know, my boyfriend at the time when I was 14, and all his friends as senior showing up to this kid’s door. In my heart, in my mind, I felt good. I’m like, oh, yeah, I’m like, I’m like, he got what he deserved. And that’s, that’s, that’s that was that was in my mind. That was clarity in my mind. But, but now, but then, you know, recently I was thinking about, it’s like, no, no, definitely not like, the school shouldn’t know about it. This happened on school property, like the school still doesn’t know, like, the school should have known about it, you know, that that mom. Like, I mean, I was, I was too scared to tell my mom, like, imagine if I had a relationship where I would could tell one of my siblings, or I did tell my mom or, you know, I actually had a friend I could talk to instead of my friends going against me in shaming and blaming me, if I had friends who actually told a counselor told someone, or if I went and told the counselor and told someone, right, instead of taking the shame and the blame, but like, this, this conclusion of, oh, like, he got what he deserved, and there’s victory because my boyfriend at the time, you know, came in and like, you know, went to bat for me, and, and, and, like, put him in his place was also very adolescent. It was very, you know, it was child like behavior and that Mom, you know, were healthy, functional, ethical mom, right or wrong, I feel should have went to the school, you know, but like I said, you know, obviously she didn’t want her own child to get in trouble. And for it, so so that didn’t happen. And and so you He knew what he did was wrong because I’m sure his mom has given him crap for it over the years. But yeah, that’s that’s kind of what happened. And that was the only closure I had with it in the school system.
Victoria Volk 15:13
And that closure, and air quotes closure is a story, I think that repeats over and over. In situations like these, when you feel like you, like you said, are paralyzed, and don’t know who to talk to, or you don’t feel like you have someone you can talk to, or you take on the shame and the blame, right, and you try and rationalize like, Oh, you know, kissed him back or, you know, I whatever it is, right. It’s just very easy to take on the shame and the blame. And so fast forward. How did that experience shape you? Once you left Detroit and started to start a new chapter.
Katie Chonacas 16:05
We’ll fast forward even before I left Detroit, I started skipping school. I was the fastest I was the fastest runner on the cross-country team or I was top three. It was Kelly Kelly. Katie, we were the three frosh Ks that’s what we were telling us. I was on the announcements twice a week. No one cheered for me. I was in the papers twice a week, which I loved, like you know, being a go getter and being in the paper and being on the announcements. Everyone would like clap and cheer. But no one no clap for me. I was so embarrassed when they said my name because I would do so well at the races, and I was on cross country and so after that year after my freshman year I ended up dropping out of cross country I dropped not only that I dropped out of cross country and university Michigan and all these like top 10 schools were looking at me for full scholarships. I you know, my dad was a cross country runner and he turned me on to cross country running and we had like we had this special bond and we do have a special bond and I was born on his birthday and our birthdays are 1111 and but yeah, so like I dropped out of cross country I started skipping school. I became you know, just like this this person I was just like I had disassociation from school I like no interest whatsoever I knew I’m like I’m an artist, I know what I want to do I want to be an actor I want to be an entertainment so like I knew like my calling. And so I just I’m just like eff these people and I just I turned I just like just like turned off school I just decided just to like turn it off and just like go numb I would like act out I would get sent out of my class I would get sent out of one of my classes and in like third period or something in this teacher just because like they didn’t want to deal with me. I would be sent to this room where it would be people with a special disability and so it was like lose handicapped person. And this other person who was like a big bully, and he like smells really bad. And he was a bully. And I tried to I tried to bully him one time and he like he like came after me and it was so scary. And I never did again. But then I would doodle I would just be doodling and then I would get in trouble for drawing so I’m like I don’t I was always thinking like I don’t belong here. I belong in an art school. Like I don’t I don’t belong here. I’d be in trouble for doodling, and I love doodling I love I love art. So and then and then I actually it was it was so bad that you know my social life at school that I ended up leaving that school and transferring to another school in Livonia and and I it’s funny that you say how the cycle repeats itself because it’s like the exact same thing happened in a different way, the exact same thing.
Victoria Volk 19:00
And did you have support that time too?
Katie Chonacas 19:08
Well, no. But this time I was a senior there are two boys who asked me to prom, and I should have went with this one boy, I should have I should have went with this one boy, but I went with this. this other guy and Wow. It’s like,
Victoria Volk 19:32
I’m so sorry, Katie.
Katie Chonacas 19:35
Yeah, yeah, it’s wild how you are in these situations, and you just find yourself so alone and so isolated and but then you’ll have to yourself it’s like how do you put yourself in these situations? So that’s what I’m thinking is like how do you put yourself in these situations? Right? So, the second time it was during prom and I literally went to prom. With this kid, and he was the one getting the hotel room for like everyone to go back to, to party at afterwards. And so he literally, during prom, had us leave prom, to go to this hotel room, so it’d be all set up. So when everyone came afterwards, and so I didn’t want to leave, I wanted to stay with the kids, you know, they’re all like the popular kids or whatever. And I wanted obviously, I was completely insecure. And I wanted to, you know, stay and have a good time. And he had a sleeve. And he got literally literally the hotel room ready with the keg, two in the bathtub full of ice, and, and took advantage of me completely. And just, like, put himself on me, and pressured me into having sex with him. And it was just like, so quick again, like, you know, when you’re 17 or whatever, 16 of 16 it’s just just like, I don’t know, 617 Yeah, knows. Yeah. 17 I think I was always I was always like a late starter, I started I started my period late. I was, I start, everyone could drive, and I couldn’t drive because my birthday is in November. So, I like I graduated when I was 17. You know, so like, everyone else is 18. But I was 17. So maybe I was 13 actually, when I was a freshman, and that happened. Maybe I was maybe I wasn’t 14 you I was 13 because when I got a boyfriend, I was 14. So I think I was 13 actually wouldn’t wouldn’t happen because I was I was thinking I was 13 in my freshman year when it happened, this was the beginning of freshman year. So yeah, so when I was a senior, and they just like happened, and it was like done. I just felt like he was like, done with me. And like everyone showed up at the hotel room. And like everyone knew, everyone knew. And it was like, again, shame, blame. And it was just like, felt like, you know. Yeah, so that’s that’s kind of like that’s that that’s what, that’s what my high school experience was like. You know, and I don’t want to blame anyone or myself. But I definitely took on a lot of shame. And now as you know, as a young adult, I just look at look at it. Like if I were talking to a friend, which I do in the mirror, I’m supportive and positive for everyone else, they just hold space for myself just to be positive for myself and Haley. You know, you’re a good kid, you’re a smart kid, like, you come from a good family, and everyone has their stuff, you know, but there wasn’t drinking in my house, there wasn’t drugs. There was an infidelity in my home you know, but but, you know, like, I have three siblings come from a big Greek family and you know, you go to school and it’s a whole different story at school, you know? Yeah, there’s ways to you know, that’s why community is so important. building communities and and having open communication and practicing open communication and no matter what it is to be able to, you know, hold space and let people know like I won’t judge you. I don’t blame you. I don’t shame you. You know, all these things I’ve learned and I practice along the way and you know, I practice them with others and I practice with myself and I just come to realize that it’s important to do those things and to keep doing those things.
Victoria Volk 23:54
You mean obviously you didn’t feel like you could talk to your parents? Despite having good role models and good examples and good family life? Where do you think that disconnect was? We couldn’t talk to them or I was just gonna say I think when when we take on that shame and blame I think that’s a lot of what keeps us silent. Right?
Katie Chonacas 24:34
Yeah, I mean, that that shame and blame definitely kept me silent and definitely kept me restricted. But um, you know, every family does have their issues and and based on, you know, how my mom was raised in her circumstances. She hasn’t been a person, I could go to Intel things and she, I don’t think she had the the message Until bandwidth to deal with it. And I thought probably I would get into trouble. But, you know, like, when I was younger, I’d always like, talk to my mom, it was like, really difficult and share things. But when I would talk to her, it was like peeling an onion. And I would do one layer that gets really excited. And on a psychological level, I would like, you know, like chess, like, do do different layers of like talking to my mom. And right when I got to this, when I would get to like the second layer and start to peel it, it was like, she got like a tear, or showed any sign of vulnerability, she would just put her shield back up and, like, go to your room, or, like, that’s enough, Katie, you know, and like she couldn’t, couldn’t handle them anymore. You know, crying to her is weak, not not a strength. You know, she didn’t have her parents she could talk to, I would be sent to my room are told to stop crying, if that gives you any frame of reference of being able to be vulnerable, so it wasn’t advocated in my life with with my mom.
Victoria Volk 26:11
It wasn’t neither in mind. And that cycle repeats. And that’s why I’m so passionate about helping children with loss program that, that I facilitate, because it breaks that cycle, once we learn as parents, how to be hurt with the IRS, where our kids potentially could change the trajectory of their lives. Because, you know, had you been able to talk to your mom, or she was that safe space for you? You can’t unknow it, once you know it. So what do you what are you going to do about it? Right?
Katie Chonacas 26:52
Yeah, I think that’s where, like a lot of my anger came from. And then so I think some of that’s where some of my blame came from, like some of my anger towards my mom, or maybe towards my dad, like, maybe some of my anger came from, and I was blaming, but like, I hadn’t, but that’s also where my compassion came from, because I don’t blame them. Because I wouldn’t in this world if it weren’t for them. And they, they didn’t know how, like, you know, my mom didn’t know how, like, because her parents didn’t know how, but at a very young age, I decided I was going to put myself and my life first and appreciate this God given life to me and fully live it and understand it as much as possible before gifting life to another. So in the sense of my career, my my different individual aspects of my career, those have been my babies, and I’ve been nurturing them, and in nurturing my life and my relationships. And those have been my babies. And then I decided I wanted to have children later on in life. So I have never been married, and I don’t have children, and God willing, I will. But now that I’ve been through what I’ve been through and really know myself more, I feel like I’m able to break the pattern that you’re talking about and and have vulnerability and compassion and open communication. And you know, the Greeks say communication is key, you know, like, communication is key. And I was always raised going places, my mom saying, you know, going to a family member’s house or going to someone’s house? Oh, don’t tell him anything about her family? Or like don’t don’t say anything. Like don’t don’t say anything. So we were always tell like, Oh, don’t say this. Don’t say that. So, it’s like, you know what I mean? Like, it gives mixed messages for children. It’s very, very confusing and difficult. So, me, I’m just like, up. And I’m just like an open book. So, it’s like, you know, but I mean, obviously, there’s certain things you say and don’t say, but when it comes to the home, I feel like communication is needs, it needs to be transparent, completely. So that’s really cool that you have that program.
Victoria Volk 28:48
So, what, where do you go from here?
Katie Chonacas 28:52
Well, you’re the first person I’ve spoken to about this on a platform. And it mustered up a lot of courage within me to do so. So I, where I go from here is keep taking these huge leaps and steps in speaking out loud, you know, to be a ripple effect. So other people could hear my story and learn from what I’ve been through and maybe identify with it. And so it’s important, I feel to, you know, speak on it, not all the time, but definitely speak on it because if I don’t, and I kind of think this would apply to all human beings, that it has power over you and it takes it takes over and it’s like a it’s like a blanket like just like, engulfing on on you and you’re like not able to breathe and see clearly and it’s just so dark and it’s such a lonely place. And So, I just don’t want to feel that way, you know, I just, I just don’t want to feel that way at all. And I don’t want another to feel that way. So, um, you know, I just, I’m just like, it’s like chipping away, you know, with like an ice pack and just chipping away to, to not not have it not let it have any control over me. And also, another thing that I do is that I’ve done and that I do, as a human being, I take all of it, and I apply it to my work, I put it into my actor, I put it into TV, I put it into film, I put it into my drawings, into my paintings, I put it into my poetry, you know, so I take it, and I apply it to art, you know, because that’s what life is for me. So when I feel like, you know, those are healthy things that I can do with the circumstances that were given to me, and I don’t want to justify or compare my circumstances, my circumstances, somebody else’s, because I know we all have different circumstances. So there’s physical circumstances, which is bloody and gory, and, you know, but then there’s psychological mental circumstances, you know, like a spiritual war, psychological war, and mental health that is just as gory and bad as a physical and in a blood that you see, you know, so mine’s more of the invisible patterns and the invisible energies that you think you can’t see. But you really can see, and you definitely feel them. You know, energy is just energy emotions. So breaking down old negative patterns, and calling them out, identifying with them, and replacing them with nourishment and positive patterns.
Victoria Volk 31:59
It’s rewiring. It’s a rewiring of our brains.
Katie Chonacas 32:03
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s like, we have 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day, 90% of those thoughts have the same thoughts, right? So what are we thinking about? And so, like this, one thing that we’re speaking on, is very, very deep rooted on so many ways. So to be able to speak upon it, and, you know, apply new language, new, new words, new, new things, I feel is Ultimately, the goal, right? So, when it when, when it when you’re in an ocean wave, and they cycle and they circle back around, and you hit that iceberg, it’s not as you know, detrimental. Hopefully, we can iron out in and keep forgiving, and take responsibility. And hopefully, it won’t feel as bad or hurt as much.
Victoria Volk 33:00
Those of you listening to this, just energetically, I would just want you to send Katie some love. Because I know this was not easy for you. It wasn’t even easy for me to hear. I’m being honest. Because there’s a lot I haven’t spoken up. But it just really honestly came to light this year. And so I’m still unpacking all of that. You give me courage. This is such a message to for parents to hear. I have a 13 year old actually, she’s going to be 14 she has a countdown going on when she’s turning 14 and I’m terrified.
Katie Chonacas 33:40
Yeah, she’s 12. And so, I want to like same, right, but it’s like, also, I want to be careful not to hold that worry. And that terrifying energy because I want to hold light and space and excitement for them, you know, to, you know, to not to not have that energy, vibration be so low. I want to be mindful of that. But also I want to be like, mindful of how I can approach her and mindful of how I can share with her in a healthy way. Certain things you know, to be able to have that communication. And it’s like with what’s happened and being in the world. You would think one would know how to approach those kinds of things, right? But when it’s your child or a child there is it’s it’s not easy to you know, have that conversation.
Victoria Volk 34:31
Well, a new resort to what you know. And thank the Lord that I discovered grief recovery because and Reiki because together they have definitely opened up my eyes and helped me to peel back the layers of myself and made me a better parent.
Katie Chonacas 34:54
I’m attuned to level two, what level are you attuned to? Did you do the master two for?
Victoria Volk 34:59
I’m a master.
Katie Chonacas 35:00
Oh cool. What number?
Victoria Volk 35:01
Yeah, I’m not sure. Well, I’m a Reiki Master, and I’m going to be doing my Corona in a couple of weeks. Reno holy fire. I’m gonna Sui holy fire Reiki Master is the Sui lineage. I know there’s several different lineages there’s many lineages.
Katie Chonacas 35:21
Wow, me first time I’ve heard of that.
Victoria Volk 35:25
Yeah. And it’s it’s changed my perspective on energy for sure, really opened my eyes. And it’s been brought me a lot of healing actually to, in conjunction with grief recovery. And sort of circle back, you know, with what you shared today and with the audience. And it’s just so important that we recognize that, when something like this were to happen, whether kids or with ourselves, we resort to what we know. And I just want to say that there are new tools, and there are tools out there, and new knowledge that we can acquire, to better serve ourselves and our children and our communities and things like that. And so I’m just so grateful that I found that.
Katie Chonacas 36:23
What are some great that you found useful? The new resources?
Victoria Volk 36:29
The grief recovery method itself to process because you can utilize that for the relationship to the person who abused you, you can utilize that for the relationship that you have to your body, to yourself to your inner child. You can utilize the method to money, actually, your relationship with money is just very versatile. And I’ve applied it in many ways in my life.
Katie Chonacas 37:03
How do you find the program?
Victoria Volk 37:06
Google?
Katie Chonacas 37:07
Okay, okay. Is it in North Dakota that you did the program?
Victoria Volk 37:11
No, it’s actually online. You can find it online, the grief recovery method, it’s online, but I got certified in the method in Austin, Texas. March of last year.
Katie Chonacas 37:25
I was I will, I’ve always wanted to go to Austin, Texas, I haven’t been there yet. I always went a few times for South by South South by Southwest but cool, that’s it’s so great that you went through the program. That’s why I felt like really safe in trusting to speak with you on this topic. Because you’ve, you know, been in the program and you’ve, you know, how to hold space, and I just felt like it would be a really, you know, good safe space to be able to share, you know, for grieving voices.
Victoria Volk 37:57
Thank you for that. Yeah, and that is my goal. That is my goal, to be a heart with yours. So, I, as I mentioned, you know, as we talked about, I discovered the grief recovery method and, and Reiki that’s greatly helped me heal back the layers of my trauma and grief and all of that. And you mentioned that you’ve been basically channeling it into your art, what you experienced into your art and the work that you do. What are your goals for your art? And do you how do you plan now that we you’ve kind of started to speak out about this? How do you feel about it moving forward? And you know, is is advocacy something that you’re interested in?
Katie Chonacas 38:57
Definitely, I definitely want to be an advocate. I definitely am I feel very raw and vulnerable. When I first identified with it, I think it was like in 2016 when I saw this film girl on the edge of the sag foundation in Los Angeles you know when when the lead actor at the end, you know, she picked up her little rock and it said rip on it said rape on it. It really struck home with me and I connected with the director and I was so moved by it that I wrote an article on the Huffington Post and actually was so raw and real, that the Huffington Post didn’t publish it. I had to edit it down and make it more tailored. So, so it’s it’s published now but I’m not sure if it’s because I was. I’m not a doctor, like, you know, a PhD to speak on this topic or if it was just like too much of the time, but I was able to publish that article. And I was very, it felt really like you know, when something first happens, it’s like that raw feeling where it’s like really fresh, like wounded and very vulnerable. So, I felt that for a while, and that was in it was in December I remember and then and then I in May I went to lightning in a bottle. And I was driving with a healer during lightning in a bottle this week Music Festival he had, he did this like ocean thing, where I put the person and the situation into an ocean bottle, and it just got smaller and smaller. And I kept going away. And I was just like, it was a huge music festival with like, you know, 15,000 people there. So I was like, rah, rah. And I was like screaming and crying and just really letting it out. And I felt like I did, I felt like I did, and I did, I had like, a big release about it. And then and then 2017 happened at 19 I kind of went through life and things were still like, you know, kind of like, confusing and foggy. And then the obscene documentary came out. And I was very I like, wanted to see it, but I was hesitant to see it. And I was I had the resistance, but then it was during, it was like right when 2020 during the lockdown, right when the riots were just happening. And literally, I it was a Thursday and I sat down. And I watched for all four episodes in a row. And afterwards, I was just stone cold, like buzzing and numb. And I was up till like, six, seven in the morning, I couldn’t sleep I was just up. And it’s like, all these pieces of like, all these years, it was all these pieces just like came together where I thought they like came together before but now they came together, and it was like it was the clearest they could ever be. It all came together. And it was it was like mapped out and I and I just watched my choices from being 14 up until now in my life of all the choices that I made with, with with males and male partners. And, and circumstances and situations and invitations and, and I when the whole me to movement came out a few years ago, but like i was i was like I was I was noticing the way I didn’t talk to anyone about it. But I was noticing the way I was reacting to it inside I was very like judgmental I was very like I was there was there was a voice in there. It’s like I want to share there’s a voice in there where I wanted to post something, or I want to do a hashtag Me too. But then that then the next thought was like Oh, those those girls just want attention or someone’s just gonna think they want attention or, or, um I don’t want to be a part of this because that’s like, oh I’m like one of the herd or one of the sheep but I’m so like, I’m judging them. I’m judging me. Like and being a part of that I’m judging so I’m doing a lot of judging here. And me two things happening. It just it’s just keeps happening. It just keeps going on it just keeps cycling back up and and I continue to stay silent. I continue to judge I continue to you know, say something to myself about it, but not to anyone else. But the buried deep down and some like because I disassociate. I’m like, Oh, that’s not me. Like I justified Oh, that’s not mean that that’s them. That’s not me, right? That was the justification for it. And then I saw this obscene documentary. And I watched it. And the first woman and her sister from their experience, and they went to the police in the FBI and said something off of that experience. I was like, holy crap, this is like, this is like nothing compared to what I’ve seen and what I’ve been through. I’m like, if this person is saying it, like, how unhealthy Am I how unhealthy is this situation that I’ve been justifying, because of this is a this small the situation but they went, you know, I was like, Oh my God. And then I went on to watch, you know, the, the, the four series, the documentary in LA looking and hearing all these other girls stories. And because of these other girls that had a broken family, or they didn’t have a mom, or they didn’t have a dad, or they were into drugs, or they were they were like drinking or, or didn’t have parents or they dropped out of school, they or whatever. It’s like, Oh, I didn’t I didn’t have i would i was justifying this whole lot. I didn’t I didn’t do cocaine. I didn’t do drugs. I didn’t have parents who did drugs. I don’t my mom’s here. My dad’s here. They’re here. Like, I don’t have like stepfathers and people coming and going, I wasn’t sexually abused, like, you know, by a parent, like this didn’t happen to me. So I would, I would. I went on in life. And I would be on these private yachts in the south of France. I would be, you know, with these multimillionaires and multi billionaires. And I would be going, you know, I would be having lunches and dinners and, you know, like, I’m like, oh, that, you know, they would tell me how smart I am and how pretty I am. They would tell me how gorgeous I was and how smart I was. And I felt so special. And I’m like yeah, obviously. Of course, I’m beautiful. Of course, I’m gorgeous. Of course, you want to be around me because all this in that although I’m not going to have sex. I’m not going to let you touch me, I’m not going to do anything with you. But allow, I’ll allow you to buy me dinner, I’ll allow you to buy me lunch, I’ll accept the invitation to go on a private jet, and to go on yachts and to have these experiences all over the world. And I’m, I’m the one, you know, having a good old time on your dime. And I’m seeing the world and I’m doing all these like cool things. But you’re not, you’re extending an invitation to me, but you’re not, I’m not sleeping with you, I’m not sleeping in the same boat with you With you, I have my own. I have my own bedroom, I have I have so so I would justify, I’d be like, but but then you’re watching the documentary. And they’re telling the girls how special they are, how, how smart they are, but then they take it to the next level. And they abuse them sexually. But I justified it, I’m like, Oh, that’s not me. Because I don’t allow them to touch me. But know that you know what I am, I am the same situation I am the same. It is me too. I am in the same category because because these girls who are you know, doing the drugs or you know, doing the whatever they want the the sexual stuff that I’m not doing. I’m just like one of the girls, I’m just one of the pretty girls where it’s like, they just, you know, some of them, they just like to have like, you know, five to 10 girls around, right? They just like to have like all these eye candies around. And so for them, even though what’s them paying for a meal or, or paying for a flight or having me go here or there. They just like having the entourage of females around, right? Not that I went to like too many things where there’s like entourage as a females. But I have been in situations where there’s been, you know, more than one girl there. And although I wasn’t doing anything, and they were I felt like oh, I was like scamming them or I got away. But no, I was under the victim umbrella. And I was justifying my own circumstances under that umbrella. And I was like, Oh my god, that’s so unhealthy. And by seeing that documentary, obscene, I was like, Oh, I am me, too, it is a me too thing. And I felt like the shackles come off, I felt the shield. Come down, you know, and I had a lot of deep sadness for myself, I had a lot of deep sadness for myself, because this whole entire time, you know, growing up in California, and being around all these different people, and events and parties, in LA, and New York, and Paris, and London and around the world. And it wasn’t all that but it was it was in there. It wasn’t all that it was but it was intertwined. It was inter woven, you know, and I just I kept this like thread, it was like this thread of, through my life. And I know we all have different threads we carry around. But this this one thread, I feel stems from that experience from when I was 14, you know, and I took on the shame I took on the blame, I took on the pressure I took on those things, I took on those things, although I protected myself and I’m, you know, one with God, and I have my faith and my morals and my values. And I wanted to experience, you know, all these materialistic fantasizing fun things, without the cost of giving up my sexual identity, right. And also being taken advantage of, I was already closed off, like, no one could get past there, I was like, closed off, like, it’s not happening, you know, and it just, it just wouldn’t happen, you know, it just, it just went in, you know, a lot of times, because I was tough, and strict and strong in these ways of my personality, but also my morals and my values. I also feel like some of that closed off, because I made the choice not to let anyone in because I something was taken for me because like No means no beat, but because it was taken from me. So maybe it when it happened in my young adult life, you know, going through my 20s you know, in California and around the world and stuff, maybe that also gave me a internal strength and a build on to where I wasn’t gonna let anyone prey on me, you know, because I knew what it felt like already. So these other girls in life, who have their own experiences, you know, I’m watching them in the documentary. And it happened, you know, many times over and over. And I was always just like, oh, they’re so weak, like before the document, right? Like, all those girls are weak, they have no morals, they have no values to allow those kinds of things, I would justify it, you know, and just say something like, oh, they’re doing Coke, they’re doing an A bowl of coke or something like that, you know, they’re, they’re just, you know, having sex for money or something like that, you know, and I would, I would judge them, I would, I would judge them. And when you’re judging others, you’re only really judging yourself, you know. And like I said, I felt like I had one up over them, like I was better than them because I didn’t allow that repeated abuse going over and over. But it was it was still abuse on a psychological level. And it was just unhealthy patterns, just to be a part of right when I could have been in a relationship with somebody when it could have been around real friends, real friends, and not people who aren’t your friends, you know. So, I was really, really frustrated. And angered and really mad at myself for not building up healthier friendships and communities earlier on. I do now, I’m grateful that I have them now. And I’m developing them. But of course, you’re always wondering like, Oh, you know, what if that didn’t happen, or what if I wasn’t a part of those things, thinking I had to be a part of those things to, to make certain things happen, you know, from my own limiting beliefs and isolation of not communicating and, and sharing, you know, unhealthy, unhealthy thoughts and beliefs come up.
Victoria Volk 50:43
Well, and the one thing that when you’re sharing that what came up for me is, I remember back to when you said, when you first saw your girlfriends after that happened, and they pretty much just dismissed you, and shamed you and judged you and kind of cut you off, right? And so these girls, then later in life, you know, it’s get them before they can get me.
Katie Chonacas 51:15
Well also, growing up, um, you know, my mom, she really did coax us with, like, how beautiful we were, you know, how she was very nurturing with like taking care of our hygiene and using lotions, and taking care of our bodily tumbles. And so, I always grew up knowing I was beautiful, you know, like, and my sister was gorgeous, too. And she is and so I went to school thinking like every I was complimenting all these girls. And I was like, oh, you’re so gorgeous, you’re so pretty, like I love your hair, I love your eyes. And I would always be very complimentary of what like someone was wearing or how they looked or something like that, just because it’s like, in my friendly nature, personality. But I thought everyone was beautiful. Like, like the bat, like, like your hand. Like, you know, you’ve a front and a back. Like, I just thought everyone was gorgeous. Like, that’s how I was trained. That’s how I was I was taught growing up. And so, a lot of times, girls, they’re so insecure, and with my like voice and my bold personality. They, I guess I they, I would make them feel small or insecure because they would shy away from me. Or maybe they thought like I was being fake about it. Or maybe they didn’t think I was being authentic, right. And so sometimes I had girlfriends, but then as soon as they got a boyfriend, they would stop being my friend. And I remember some of my teachers this one teacher when I was a freshman in college, I ended up getting a full scholarship for cross country running. But when I stopped running and then came back to it was like the comeback queen. But that’s that’s another story if you want to hear about it, but I ended up getting back into running because of my dad and I went for it. And I remember one of my teachers, she sat me down, and she said, Listen, like you’re you’re so beautiful. You’re like you’re so attractive. And she’s like and you’re smart. And you know I’m with my voice she said you know she sat me down and told me that a lot of girls are going to be jealous of me. A lot of girls are going to be the way that they were cuz she saw how they were in school to me, they were so mean to me, they were so mean to me. I’m so in addition to being taken advantage of, you know, and having my virginity taken away from me without my consent, in addition to all that, with the blame and the shame, with also just like being like a, like a beautiful human being the kids are very cruel. So, so then so then it’s a lot, right? It’s like there’s this layer and this layer and there’s this situation, this situation and then when they all come together, how do you spread it out to know what, what, what is what? You know, it’s a lot. It’s definitely a lot. And I started remember growing, also growing up in entertainment. One of my best friends, he’s so cool. J Logan horn. He took me to his friend’s birthday dinner, and I knew about his one friend and I like I really like idolized her and I admired her. And it was her birthday and he brought me to dinner with her and her name is Jessica Stam. She’s gorgeous. She’s from Canada, and she’s beautiful model. And we went to this dinner and she’s younger than me. But the way she was with me, she was so graceful and kind and she looked at me as her equal and like she was like edgy and cool. And we became like friends instantly. And we’ve been friends ever since. And she’s younger than me and she’s quote unquote more successful than me, right? I mean, success is, you know, measured, right? So but in my eyes of wanting a role model because at a young age, I’ve always wanted role models and for an interpersonal female feminine divine relationship. That was really For me, I remember when I met her, and she was younger than me, and I looked up to her. And she was so because she was so successful and like, in her career, she didn’t even though I was gorgeous, you know, and bold and loud, like she could had space to celebrate me and to honor me and, and she wasn’t jealous of me and she wasn’t cutting and looking down to me. And it was really nice to identify and get with someone who was who was like a mirror reflection of how I was for others, right. And it took a long time for me to, to meet someone like her. And, and she’s very special and, and I admire her greatly. And she kind of gave me a new hope of confidence of what it could be like to, you know, keep the faith and keep being how I was and, and, and since then I’ve met a lot of beautiful, empowering beautiful women and gems along the way. And I deepen my relationship with the divine feminine and have real true relationships with females. So that’s, that’s a part of it all, too, you know.
Victoria Volk 56:05
A lot of ripples want to experience. And that’s just, that’s a very good example of ripples of how we can have one experience and how it just transcends time, and writes on who we are, and how we present ourselves to the world. And once we recognize and have a certain level of awareness, it’s kind of rediscovering ourselves again.
Katie Chonacas 56:33
And it’s like, the way that I always was, that’s how I wanted, like all my girlfriends to be, that’s how I wanted to be with all my girlfriends, you know, and to truly be a man, but with, with how I with how I grew up, and you know, you know, we’re kids, like, I didn’t grow up, you know, as a child in LA, where there are people who have careers already, right. So, like, I’m growing up in Michigan, so people are still, you know, kids and go into school and what have you. So, I understand, I understand that it took time for me to meet a match of mine, who was at the level where I was at, in regards to women empowerment, and the strength. One has for, you know, being being a human, and being that voice for others. We are who we are, and sometimes it gets covered in some luck, right? But then once in a while a gem comes around like Jessica and it just like it just it’s a mirror reflection that remind you of who you are. And in you being your best self and, and, you know, knowing that maybe you’ve had some like lonely times, and then roads. You know, it’s very, obviously intimate and raw. And I don’t even think she understands the level of impact it’s had for me, and how special Our friendship is, but it really is and, and so I continue to be that for others because it’s who I am. And, and like I said, I’ve met females along the way, Tish Hicks who has the vo dojo, who’s you know, a pioneer in voiceover, Randy Thomas, who was the first female disc jockey. And she paved the way for women in voiceovers. She’s the voice of ABC nightline. She’s the first woman anchor, you know, she was the first female disc jockey. She’s the first woman anchor, she’s been the voice of the Oscars for 10 times. Total she’s been the voice of the Tonys for 21 years in a row. And she’s my friend and she’s my role model and mentor and, you know, I’m like her spiritual daughter, she’s like, my, she’s like my spiritual mom. And so I’ve met these beautiful women along the way who are successful, and, you know, proud to call me their friend, and I’m honored to have them on my journey. And they support me, you know, speaking, what I do what what comes up for me, and they hold space for me, and I honor them. And it’s like, with everything that’s happened, it’s, I feel like I appreciate it even more in the relationship is even more juicy. Or, you know, because I’ve been through the hardships and they know what it’s like, because we all have our, our own hardships, you know, and I know I have the strength and the determination to be there for them if and when they need me. And I feel like that’s what you know, the journey is about being showing up and being there for one another.
Victoria Volk 59:34
A lot of great messages today. For parents, thank you for sharing your story, your grieving voice for the first time. And I’m honored that you felt safe sharing it with me.
Katie Chonacas 59:50
My pleasure, my pleasure. You know, I write poetry as well. And I haven’t even written about this in my poetry because it’s so isolating and so Scary that I’ve been even scared to write it down, like even even in poetry. So maybe in the near future, you’ll be able to read some of my poetry as I’m being more open about this. And I make music under the sophisticated psychos. And the music’s really cool. And so I put the emotion and things into music. There hasn’t been too many lyrics on this topic. But it’s food for thought, in this moment that maybe there’ll be songs in the future. Because I do spoken word poetry as well. Maybe I’ll create a piece where you know, I talk on this topic in a poetic kind of way to share and educate and be a ripple effect for others. To meditate on that some more, it’ll come to me but I do make coming from Detroit in the underground music scene. I do make beats and all the musics available on all streaming platforms, I actually have an EP coming out October 20. It’s in a few weeks here and I leaked a couple of my own music videos on YouTube. It’s on the sophisticated psychos YouTube page. But I actually teamed up with subtle energy. And so we put healing frequencies, we encoded healing frequencies in our music, and Eric Thompson, who owns created subtle energy sent me all these frequencies, and I could choose which frequencies I wanted on these beats that I’m releasing. And what stuck to me immediately was 639 hertz, and 639 hertz, Foster’s forgiveness, forgiveness on a planetary level with what we’re going through right now. And for self and for others, and just to mend our relationships, whatever kind of relation ship we’ve had with all these kinds of relationships that we’re dealing with. So I’ll send it to, I would love for you to check it out. And if your viewers want to check it out, too. I’m really proud, it’s something new, I feel like I’m really turning new leaves right now. So I’m really I’m really excited, you know, that we cross paths and that we’re on each other’s journeys. And knowing me more, I think you’ll probably understand my art more as well, maybe you’ll see it in the depths of my soul, when you’re seeing me on TV or film or something, that I’m not just acting that it’s actually comes from a place where I’ve had the courage to, you know, tap into these vulnerable moments. And, you know, that’s why actors and artists are who they are, because they’re willing to go there, you know, they’re willing to, to go there. It’s um, you know, it’s, it’s an honor, it’s an honor to be able to be a vessel for everything we’ve talked about.
Victoria Volk 1:02:36
That’s amazing. I just love how you’re channeling all of that into the, into the work that you do, and, and it does, it creates ripples. And I hope that this podcast does as well. And one of the messages too, that I feel I want to mention and that you shared is that it’s important to find your people. Find the people that support you, lift you up that, like you said, hold a mirror view of who you really are, and where you shine, and they lift you up.
Katie Chonacas 1:03:14
Yeah, I love Kundalini Yoga. I really found my tribe through Kundalini all these years before I knew the word Kundalini Yoga before I ever practiced it. I was naturally doing Kundalini growing up, I started doing Kundalini when I was eight, I would just do it naturally by myself. I didn’t even know I was doing it. Or what I was, I was just practicing it. And so that’s definitely in my tribe. I do a lot of voiceovers. And I love voiceovers because you can be as big and loud and wacky as you want and the wackier and the louder the better, the more fun it is, because in voiceovers and acting you don’t want to be a bad actor and overact but in voiceovers, they want you to go super big with animation because they can always bring you down but if you’re going so small down like this, they don’t know if they could bring you up so it’s really good to be bold and big. So I find through the vo community I’m able to you know be in a booth and I’m able to do my work and it’s all about my choices my intention and how I sound more so to what I look like and I feel like I’ve done a lot of on screen acting and I like to put it on the backseat for a while and I was doing other things and now I’m I’m gonna get back on screen again. But when I took the time out, part of the psychological journey of taking time out and and not being on camera and not being seen was a part of me hiding and I would just be hiding because I would feel judged by people right hiding the shame hiding the blame isolating so i’d feel safe to be wild, loud and crazy in a voiceover booth. But not having people look at me because I’m gorgeous or judge me or treat me a certain way because of how I looked or something that I’ve been through. So, I’ve been acting the whole entire time. I just kind of took a backseat from being on screen for a while just from you know the pressures of of life and stuff we’ve talked about. But I’ve done a lot of soul searching and digging and things we’ve talked about, I created my own podcast. So, if y’all want to check it out, it’s called she’s all over the place podcast. So, I’m grateful to have the podcast and I’m grateful to, you know, have the space to take the space to sort and figure this all out, and then to share it. And yeah, so um, I just took new headshots. And so now I’m going to focus on getting back on TV and film. So that’s, that’s very exciting.
Victoria Volk 1:05:32
Awesome, come out from behind the microphone, right? And it makes sense to me that you would feel like, 2e’re made feel small, and to shush, right? made to shush for a long time. And so your time to shine.
Katie Chonacas 1:05:49
I’ll just say like, like, I came out of the gate, like, you know, like, boom, all out. And then I’m out there and I’m doing these things. And then with the stuff we’ve talked about, now I’ve taken time and space to reflect, identify sort through them it took like a long time to because then you feel like you know what you’re doing, then you keep going, but then it’s like, wait, something’s still feels off. And there’s the confusion, the cloudiness, and there’s the whole journey that you’re going through. So, I feel like now, especially in 2020, since the lockdown I’ve been able to just really take a backseat and really stop everything stop all the patterns, stop all the cycles and just just let everything just like fall down. And when I think it’s all down, because before like I thought it was all down, and then I kept going, but but some stuff came out but but it wasn’t right. And so now I’ve been able to just really stop and just when you want to like okay, okay keep going node be able to stop more be able to stay still longer, and and more stuff has come up. And so now I’m excited because I since I really had held depth of space, you know, now I can like I said before I can take it and apply it to my work so I can go back on screen. Knowingly knowing like more confident than ever it’s like and this time execution like Bullseye like no one nothing, whatever is gonna stop me because through and through, in and out. everything that’s happened good bad in between. I know myself so well, like Socrates says Know thyself, before, it’s like you think you know yourself, and you’re always getting to know yourself. But now it’s like, in 2020. Now more than ever, right? Know thyself, I can take that ammunition and apply it to my craft into my work and make multi millions of dollars doing it with a smile on my face.
Victoria Volk 1:07:39
Amen. I love that. Because that’s your birthright. And you don’t have to do to be or say or perform in any way to receive love to receive. You know, we got to give that to ourselves first. And really, thank you for being my guest today. And for sharing all that you shared. And if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you? I know you mentioned the podcast.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:10
Yeah, she’s all over the place podcast subscribe. My handle is my brand is the sophisticated psycho. So, we’re on all music streaming platforms. But you know, people can just email me imagine [email protected] [email protected] and then you know, I’m on all the social media handles, I just go by chonacas my last name.
Victoria Volk 1:08:32
And I will put the links in the show notes.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:39
Yeah, my website, just chonacas.com that’s probably the best way to reach out. Everything’s there.
Victoria Volk 1:08:44
Thank you so much, Katie.
Katie Chonacas 1:08:46
My pleasure. Thank you, thank you really unique experience. And I just I love the name grieving voices. And I just, I really identified with it immediately. So, it was a really good fit for us. I really appreciate you. And it was an honor to share my story here, you know, because it’s like, if not now, when, you know, like when it’s like it’s been happening for so long, and I’m not getting any younger. And if we really wanted to make an impact, we just need to actually take action on those things. So, I feel like today was a big success for both of us. Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:09:23
Thank you. Love that. All right, everybody. Thank you for tuning in. And like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, just send Katy some energetic love. And my grieving voice, my grieving heart goes off to you. And this is not the end. I have no doubt we will be keeping in touch.
Katie Chonacas 1:09:48
Yeah, definitely.
Victoria Volk 1:09:50
Thank you all for listening. Until next time, take care and much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Suicide, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections | Out from the Shadows of Suicide & Mental Illness
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This episode digs more deeply into the grief of those left behind when a loved one dies by suicide. I also share three unhelpful words for grievers related to grief due to sudden and traumatic loss, particularly suicide.
In this episode are some personal takeaways or a-ha’s that have stuck with me. This episode is all about that and more from my interviews with David Woods Bartley and Bob Krulish.
David shared his personal story of attempted suicide and his life with clinical depression. And, Bob shared his life-long battle with Bipolar Disorder, which took 35 years to receive an official diagnosis. In the meantime, he lost everything and everyone he loved. Essentially, both stories are stories of tremendous loss (i.e., grief).
You can listen to David’s 2-Part Interview in episodes 21 HERE and 22 HERE. Catch Bob’s episode 24 HERE.
Connect with David Woods Bartley:
Connect with Bob Krulish:
This is Episode 24 takeaways and reflections from the interviews with David Woods Bartley and Bob Kulish. If you have not listened to those episodes, which would be Episode 21, 22, and 23, then that’s what this episode is all about. David’s episode was split into two parts, because it was just an amazing conversation, as was the one with Bob.
And so today, I just want to dig a little deeper into the topics that we covered. David came on the podcast to share his story of suicidal ideation, attempted suicide, and just clinical depression and how his life’s work of working with animals and an animal sanctuary has kind of shaped the work that he does today, which is public speaking. And he’s a trainer for QPR, which is question, persuade, refer, which is suicide prevention technique, please listen to those episodes with David, very, very practical advice, and so much wisdom in his episodes, as well as the one with Bob.
Suicide from the Grief Standpoint
When we talk about suicide, which is a very abrupt kind of loss, such as murder is and any other tragic, you know, circumstances. And also to like, let’s say someone passes away of AIDS, you know, there’s like this almost like a stigma, like you’re almost afraid to even say how your loved one passed away. Because in a lot of cultures, a lot of beliefs, it’s unacceptable. And that doesn’t change the fact of how the person died. But it very well can impact the griever. And how they share their grief. If they do it, all right? When we focus on the reason for the loss, it tends to increase the isolation. And grief is emotional, regardless of the cause of death of a loved one. And there are two larger truths to this. Would you have missed your loved one any less had he or she died another way? Absolutely not. So the fact that your loved one passed from suicide doesn’t change the fact that you’re still missing that loved one. And the other truth is what is emotionally unfinished for you, as a result of the death. And there’s this other thing, too, that we talk about in grief recovery, and address, but society itself? You know, we always look for closure, right? We want some ending to our suffering. And in the case of like murder, we’re always wanting that closure, right? We, especially for instances like murder, where you are looking for justice, where you are looking for, it’s unhelpful, and it’s inaccurate, the word itself closure, because if is there closure to those whose loved ones were murdered, and never received justice? Or if you did receive justice, is there still closure? No, because there’s still unresolved grief. So what can happen though, too, is that people can make a life cause out of the circumstances that took their loved one. So in the case of suicide, for example, and it’s amazing to bring awareness and to create change.
But how many people remain incomplete with the loved one who died despite all of the effort and the proactive change those are that they’re trying to bring about in society. Again, whether it’s, you know, suicide awareness, or it’s, you know, because they lost someone to suicide or murder or you know, wanting to change laws or anything like that, right? It takes a lot of energy to remain distracted from our own unresolved grief. And that can be one way people do that. Another word that seems to come up a lot when people talk about loss due to suicide is guilt. A lot of veterans can feel this way as well. The definition in the dictionary implies it’s an intent to do harm. And if you apply this to the death of a loved one by suicide, I would ask you this question. Did you intend to harm them? And the answer would be absolutely not. This language only adds more suffering and distorts your feelings. Actually, the more accurate thing to consider is what would have been different, better or more in the relationship? What do you wish would have been different, better or more in the relationship? Another word I see a lot on social media and otherwise are here to is about is the word survivor. And it’s another inaccurate word just like guilt, just like closure, and it implies that you outlived someone else. And in grief recovery, we found that the word survivor acts as both a definition and a diagnosis. And it actually keeps people stuck in a painful rut. You don’t survive someone else’s suicide. You may however, survive if someone tries to murder you, but not when they attempt or complete suicide. So survivor defines the griever and it causes him or her to revisit the circumstances of the loss and then becomes an identity.
Pray and Take Action and The Value of Sharing your Story
There are many groups that are actually to born out of the self identification. Grievers are already isolated in our society. So segregating Grievers by the type of loss only adds to the isolation. And yet it can be of some comfort, though too so you may seek out a group of other survivors of suicide, right? Again, that’s an unhelpful definition or an unhelpful term. But if it’s a group of Grievers taking action towards healing the pain rather than sharing the same story, week after week, for months, or even years, that’s where it can be unhelpful. And so again, it comes back to the self identification and segregating yourself from other types of losses. And, you know, in society does that already. And it can be held unhelpful. And so I just wanted to bring to light. That paradox that, yes, I can feel good for a time. It can bring you comfort for a time. But if there is no action, you might find yourself going to that group for months or even years. And that is unhelpful. There’s an African proverb that David mentioned in his episode, and it was pray and move your feet. And it actually came up in another episode recently, that I just recorded, and that one won’t air until February. But it goes back to the idea of, you know, we can pray and pray and pray and pray and pray. But if we’re not moving our feet, what good is it? Right? It can make us feel better for a time. It can give us this moment of reprieve but it’s the action that we take with the prayer. You know, that really makes the difference. Aside from praying and moving your feet, along the way, there is value in sharing your story. Life is full of teachers and some have feathers and tails and power, claws, as was the case for David. And he’s made the story of his life and lost his message. That’s both humanizing to suicidal ideation, depression, and making it relatable. And not to mention allowing the rest of us in society as observers, to see others suffering with more compassion.
A Battle with Bipolar Disorder
Another hope Bringer to the world doing this is Bob Kulish. In Episode 23, he shared his 35 year battle with undiagnosed bipolar disorder, can you imagine as a parent, only seeing your kids for 72 hours out of 365 days, which is 8760 hours. I can’t. And I also can’t imagine the emotional toll it takes on the kids as well. And especially around bipolar, which is widely misunderstood. Which is why I love the work that Bob brings to the world. It’s impactful because his story is impactful. He’s a high functioning adult that is not only living with bipolar, but he is an example of someone who is thriving. And that is miraculous. In my eyes, considering the house stacked the odds had been against him his whole life, one of the biggest takeaways I took from Bob’s episode was something worth repeating. And it’s the idea that when you are feeling depressed, and you go to your practitioner, you know, medical doctor, and you talk about your depressed feelings, and they want to prescribe an anti-depressant. And that’s good, they want to help you, right? However, many practitioners are not trained, specifically in mental illness. So what happens then, if you are actually suffering from bipolar, and you go to the doctor in a depressive state, because with bipolar, they’re never going to see you when you’re manic. That is one thing that Bob taught me. And on the podcast, you’re not going to go to the doctor, when you’re manic, you are going to go when you’re depressed. And they’ll give you an anti-depressant, most likely, but it’s the screening that often misses, or lack thereof, that misses the fact that it’s actually bipolar disorder.
And so when you are provided an antidepressant, without a mood stabilizer that sends you into a manic state, if you have bipolar. And I had asked Bob, like, how long can this, how long does this? How long do you stay manic then? And he said, as long as you are on the anti-depressant without a mood stabilizer. And I just don’t find it so shocking, that well intentioned and well meaning practitioners are allowed to prescribe these psychotic medications, these drugs without really understanding the screening process are really having screening in place to detect something like bipolar disorder. And I think it comes back too like Bob said in the episode, like, how much loss have you had? And that’s one thing that medical doctors never, I mean, do they ever ask how many losses have you had in your life? How much loss Have you had in your life, and Bob says bipolar disorder is the illness of loss. So I’m on his mission bus in changing how practitioners handle the screening process, or maybe perhaps even changing that the fact that they can even prescribe anti-depressants, you know, it’s like, when you have a heart problem, you go to a cardiologist, you don’t go to a dermatologist, right? So why do we leave mental illness to general practitioners, nurse practitioners, physician’s assistants, right? Why do we put that responsibility those people? And that is a big responsibility on their part, right? So anyway, I just agree with Bob that so much news needs to change there.
And again, if you have not listened to that episode, please, please do. It was an eye opener for me. I learned so much from Bob, I learned so so much from David. And I’m just really proud of both of these interviews and feel so blessed that they were able to share their knowledge and their wisdom, and their insights and their so many golden nuggets with myself and with you. The listener. Mental Illness takes a toll on so many lives. It costs our economy like grief, which is into the billions with a B as in Bob. I remember one of my mentors saying once that grief is a public health crisis. Imagine if society approached grief as that, like obesity or smoking were addressed throughout the years. awareness and education is what it comes down to and I’m here for it. People like David and Bob, and any other griever, who comes on this podcast to share their story is contributing to the bigger vision I hold for society that we stop ignoring it. Like it’s just a part of life, that it’s best ignored, stuffed down and pushed aside, and instead brought out from the shadows of our hearts where we can bring some light to the isolated darkness and talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather. That’s today’s episode.
P.S. If you find this episode helpful and informative please share it to someone you know who need this information because sharing is caring. For this episode you can find it here. Don’t forget when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health |
Bob Krulish: A Story of Devastation & Triumph Living with Bipolar
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
How would you feel if, as a parent, you were only allowed to see your kids for supervised visitation for 72 hours total out of an entire year?
That’s exactly what happened to my guest, Bob Krulish, and as a result of his bipolar diagnosis. However, he had always been a father with undiagnosed bipolar. And, the court system failed him.
Today’s story is about so much loss. In fact, Bob says that “Bipolar is the illness of loss.” And, after hearing his story, you will be able to see that it most definitely is.
I received so much education about bipolar through Bob’s story. If you know of someone who has bipolar, suspect they have bipolar, or if you yourself have bipolar, I highly recommend you listen to Bob’s story.
There is one fact he shares about depression and anti-depressants as they relate to bipolar that you will want to hear. And, it’s one change that can be made that could potentially eliminate so much suffering for those with bipolar.
Bob gives practical advice for those who have loved one’s living with bipolar, as well as common signs to look for in someone you suspect may have it. Bob is a ripple-creator and bringer of hope for those living with and supporting those with bipolar.
Listen up, take notes, and reach out to Bob! He’s an amazing human who’s found his way out of the dark hole of bipolar after living with it undiagnosed for 35 years.
References:
Connect with Bob:
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome friends to another episode of grieving voices. I am really excited about today’s guest. It is a topic that I think is kind of lurks in the shadows, especially, you know, with mental illness, things like that. It’s a difficult topic. And today’s guest is talking specifically about bipolar disorder and his personal experience. Today we have Bob Krulish from Seattle, Washington and he is going to be sharing his experience with all sorts of losses as it related to his bipolar disorder experience. So, Bob, take it away.
Bob Krulish 00:40
Well, hi, and great to be here. I have I have an experience with bipolar disorder that is not unlike others, but also very unlike others. And that is that I went from being symptomatic when I was about 16 years old. My dad left and just left picked up and never heard from him again. And that triggered my biological predisposition to have bipolar disorder because it ends up my dad had it. And then I go from being symptomatic from 16 years old, until I get diagnosed when I’m 51. So I went 35 years of being undiagnosed. And yet having symptoms of bipolar disorder in we can talk more about why that is so hard to diagnose, and why that takes so long and how I got mis diagnosed. But what ended up happening was I had my soul have four children, I just Saturday, on Saturday, we had my fifth grandchild was born. So we’re excited about that. Thank you. That’s very exciting. And before grandchildren, when I just had children at home, I got into a really bad manic episode that was really sustained by being on the wrong medication for about three years, and to be manic for lat long, or stress everything out. So I lost my job, and I lost my marriage. And then I lost the kids. And then I lost all my possessions. And I lost all my money. and ended up on the floor of an abandoned cabin that a friend of a friend of a friend had in the woods with just a mattress on the floor, and a blanket, and a pillow. And a couple of things to wear. Well, I’ve I have lost everything that I loved. And that I held dear. And I could not believe the circumstances that I found myself in.
Victoria Volk 02:58
I am overwhelmed. I can picture it. I can picture. How old were you at that time?
Bob Krulish 03:04
So, I was 51 when I got the diagnosis and and about nine months before I got diagnosed, I was kind of kicked out of my house, kicked out of my marriage, pretty much kicked out of the family all in about January of that year. And then it wasn’t until August or September that I got diagnosed. But I was living in the cabin. About nine months after I had gotten kicked out, I had gone through a little bit of money that I got in my divorce and was so out of my mind thinking that some of the entrepreneurial things that I was working on, we’re gonna really materialize and that I was going to have plenty of money to keep the apartment that I had. But it ended up that none of that materialized, like is so common in people with bipolar when they’re manic, and I ended up being evicted from the apartment, which is another awful thing to go through when you show up at your apartment door and it’s bolted and there’s a big sign. And it says you have to have all your stuff out by tomorrow. And that was another rude awakening to what bipolar can do to a person I always call it the illness of loss in that word is very common among all of us with bipolar is that we have had loss, it almost could be the number one symptom. You know, sometimes people say I think I’m bipolar. And I’ll say well, what have you lost? Did you lose your job? Did you lose your partner to lose your family to lose your money and if they say they haven’t lost anything, then I’m pretty sure they don’t have bipolar disorder.
Victoria Volk 04:56
That is an amazing distinction. Thank you for bringing that up. You had experienced loss that triggered it.
Bob Krulish 05:02
I have experienced a big loss with my dad, that what ends up being the case when people with bipolar is we have a genetic predisposition to it. But not everybody’s that has a genetic predisposition has that gene turned on, like my brother and my sister have a genetic predisposition to have had bipolar, but their gene never got turned on. And what turns it on is some emotional crisis that ends up being taken place in not that my brother, my sister had it easy. When my dad left, they didn’t either. But for some reason, the way they manifested their grief and loss didn’t trigger their bipolar, but it triggered mine.
Victoria Volk 05:49
That’s fascinating. I’m sorry, go ahead.
Bob Krulish 05:53
I’m just saying that’s very common in everybody with bipolar, they can go back to a time before they were symptomatic. And then they can usually identify a pretty big event that took place, usually between about 16 and 20 years old, is when it’s very typical for people have habit triggered. And it’s usually some kind of a life event that triggered that.
Victoria Volk 06:18
And what we’re learning about grief, just I think, in general, and you know, things that I’ve learned and reading about how trauma kind of still stays in our body, and it changes us like loss and trauma changes us at a cellular level, physiologically. So, what changed for you laying on that mattress in that cabin, what was how did you get out of that state of mind?
Bob Krulish 06:44
That was very hard to do, I was fortunate in a way that I got to go in March of that year. So I was pretty much kicked out of my, my life in January. This is in 2009. And in March of that year, I had the wherewithal to go to a Tony Robbins seminar. And he’s a great motivational speaker. And it was his unleash the power within where you walk on hot coals and, and really is very inspiring. And it helped me quite a bit when I went there, I was really ready, I actually told the people I sit next to, I’m either going to sit through the seminar, or I’m walking back to the hotel and jumping off the building. That’s how depressed I was at the time about my grief. But in that seminar, he taught the concept of building a map, and mmap a massive action plan, and gave me the tools to do that. And it wasn’t until I was in the cabin for a couple of months that I pulled out my notebook to that seminar and started to build a massive action plan. And that plan was a few things that I’ve learned that you need to do if you’re going to manage bipolar disorder, and one is you need to understand it, you really need to understand the symptoms, the medications, the coping strategies in two, you need to be able to communicate with your doctor, your psychiatrist, you really need to be able to communicate your symptoms to him or her you have to be you have to be very revealing because the medication is so hard to to get actually you. It’s not hard to do. You get it from a doctor. But there are I’ve been on 16 different psychotropic drugs. And I’ve been through about 64 med changes over the past 11 years. So, we’re tweaking my meds about every other month. And the only way to really keep on that is to be very good at add, add revealing your symptoms and your side effects and everything that the doctor needs in order to put you on the right dose of the right man. So, once I got that plan in place, and I started to learn more and more about my illness, I was able to communicate better with my doctor. And we were able to get me on the right meds for at least a period of time. Until we made another bad change. Being on the right meds was really what what you have to do in order to manage the film.
Victoria Volk 09:33
Now the question that I have, and it might be a personal one, so if you don’t want to answer that’s quite all right. I understand. But it might be a question that listeners might be having as well. I’m assuming that you didn’t have a lot of resources if you’re living in a cabin on a mattress, right? Right. How did you get to that Tony Robbins event? How did you find the I guess what, what helped you get from that? Actress to the Tony Robbins event to the doctor, to, you know, how did you accumulate those resources that helped you turn, turn the page?
Bob Krulish 10:09
Well, I had gotten a small settlement from my ex-wife in January when I left, and I use some of that money. And it was only a few months of living expenses. But in my mania, I decided to just blow some of the money on a seminar. And this was before I was in the cabin, I will start renting an apartment. And, and I really shouldn’t have spent the money in. Well, in part, I say, I shouldn’t have spent the money because I eventually get evicted from my apartment. But the other thing was, is that if I hadn’t spent the money, I wouldn’t have learned how to do this massive action plan and have the energy to do it. So I spent some money that I had gotten in my settlement. And then I blew through all my money by October, and it was evicted from my apartment. So, I had a several million dollars of wealth when we got divorced, and I ended up signing it all the way to my ex-wife, in my mania, thinking that I can make all that money back in no time. That’s how you are when you’re manic, you have these grandiose ideas about what you can do, and you believe you’re all powerful, you believe you’re your God. Like you know, I always jokingly say the only difference between me and God at that time was that God never thought he was me. But I spent a lot of time thinking I was him. And so, I gave away all that money in a manic stupor and ended up qualifying nom in the cabin. Now I’m properly diagnosed, and I have a handful of prescriptions to fill, and I got on a state program. So, I really got on like a state welfare program. Whereas able to get my medication and get some help. But it went from millionaire to on government assisted medication programs, all in about a 10-month period of time.
Victoria Volk 12:39
Wow. And I can’t even imagine the grief, the additional grief and the shame probably too, right? Like, How have you navigated all of that?
Bob Krulish 12:51
So much shame, so much shame in that, especially when you’re still trying to live near the same community that you’ve been living as a successful person in, and now you’re living this way, I never had a friend, come see me at the cabin, I was so ashamed. have anybody ever seen me with one piece of furniture, a mattress that, you know, where were they going to sit there would be sitting on the mattress, if they came over. And it was and I did not have a car anymore. I didn’t even have a bike. I was taking the city bus. I was just living a whole different life than what I was living before. And it was, I was very ashamed of it. So, I had to shame I had to grieve the loss. And then I’m still dealing with the loss of my children. What ended up happening there was once my ex-wife found out that I had bipolar, which we found out in August of that year. And I let her know, she immediately went and got a different parenting plan submitted to the court. And in that parenting plan, she restricted my visit severely with the children because now I have bipolar disorder, her her whole argument was that I just got it in August 2009. When that didn’t really happen. And really all the bizarre behavior that I had before was explained by the bipolar, but she tended, she chose to ignore that. So, what I ended up with was a parenting plan where I only got to see my kids the second and fourth Sunday of the month from 430 to 730. So just three hours, all the time being supervised by people that were assigned to supervise me during those three-hour visits, and I wasn’t allowed to call the kid or text them or communicate with them any other way. all I got was six hours a month for 72 hours a year. You know, that’s, that’s a three-day weekend, 72 hours. And that’s the equivalent amount of time that I saw my kids. And the thing that was more painful than I ever imagined what’s gonna happen with this parenting plan was that it lasted for six years. So for the entire time that my youngest was from 12 years old, until he was 18. I only saw him for 72 hours a year. Wow. And we still have a strained relationship today. Because he just really can’t. He can’t have mature relationships when you’re when you’re being when you’re being watched, you know, you’re being supervised trying to have a meeting with your child. And it just, it just was never really great.
Victoria Volk 16:00
And you were shamed by the courts. Again, and unfortunately, your ex-wife did not understand the damage she was doing to her own son, your son. Yes. Yeah. In severing that parental relationship that you Yeah, could have had, you know, because then your son has grief about loss of hopes, dreams and expectations about his relationship to you.
Bob Krulish 16:29
Right.
Victoria Volk 16:30
She had a lot of power in that I’m so sorry that you have to go through that.
Bob Krulish 16:32
It had a lot of power. Mental Illness gives people a lot of power over you.
Victoria Volk 16:39
I don’t mean to villainize her. But I just want to highlight though, that we don’t understand how our actions sometimes create these ripples of greed to with those we care we truly care about, right?
Bob Krulish 16:55
Yeah, I don’t know how much she was aware of it going in. And I realized that she was trying to protect the kids. And she, all of a sudden, now, Bob, with bipolar disorder. And even though for the 25 years, we were together, I was bombed with bipolar disorder. Now I have a diagnosis. And now she’s got this method, you know, with the courts because of my diagnosis, to put these hard restrictions on me, and I went to court to try to overturn it after a couple of years. While after really after, like five years or more, almost six years, I went to court, we had plenty of evidence from all the supervisors that I did a great job, with the kids all the time, never missed the meeting of is never late, and never left early. For the first year of it. I lived in Dallas with a new job. And I stayed in a hotel and I flew back every other weekend, every second and fourth Sunday, or every second and fourth weekend to be with the kids and about lost in court to get that overturned after secure. The judge just just said that I was the judge deemed me as a threat to the children. And because I have bipolar disorder, even though I had given her raving reviews from my doctors, and my supervisors, and he had all these great reviews of all these people. She thought I just had to get more I was good at pretending to be good while I was being supervised but when I was going to be supervised, I wouldn’t be good at it.
Victoria Volk 18:50
So that is how the court system is where you basically represent yourself like there is no panel where you can bring in people to represent you who have worked with you and can vouch for your progress and how you’re living your life, like that’s not part of the process?
Bob Krulish 19:10
No, you can you get affidavits, written statements from all these people and you submit it to the court. You have I had a lawyer represent me You go to court, you’re not allowed to talk and you’re not allowed to bring any of these other witnesses. The only people who are allowed to talk are the two lawyers in, so you just sit there and and you’ve been filing affidavit after affidavit I spent more than $25,000 on attorney fees you know petitioning the court for this with you know getting an affidavit from just about everybody. I I felt like I needed one and the judge just kind of threw out all all the good comments about me. She said that I was just really good at talking people into stuff and And because my ex wife said that I was, and you know what you really got when you’re manic, you’re very charismatic, you’re very, you know, people want to hang out with you. You’re the life of the party, you’re going places. And so you aren’t very convincing. But throughout this whole time, I’m now medicated, so I’m not really manic anymore. I’m not in this state that I was in before when I was incorrectly medicated. And so I lost that court case, but then I appealed it. And I’m so glad I appealed that I went to a higher court, an appeals court. And in that court, the judge was so upset, what happened to me this complete opposite of the other judge and apologize on behalf of the court, and said, this should have never happened. And yet, unfortunately, you know, it was too little too late. You know, it was great to be finally validated by a court that everything I had done was great. And I deserve to be with the kids. But it wasn’t until six years had gone by.
Victoria Volk 21:18
The thought that came to my mind as I was listening to you is that we all are raised with beliefs that we grow up with. And whether we are as kids, we become a rocket scientist, or a judge, or a police officer, or a doctor, or the store clerk. We have these beliefs. And it just reminds me or makes me think of judges have beliefs too. Yeah. And you know, what was that judge’s belief about mental illness, about bipolar disorder where she couldn’t be objective, right? And just look at the situation for what it was, instead of what she what she believed. And I think that’s where that’s, I just wanted to highlight that, that thought, because that’s where change needs to happen in the justice system and the court system.
Bob Krulish 22:13
So desperately, we need to have changed there.
Victoria Volk 22:17
Because you were victimized again and again and again, for something that was out of your control.
Bob Krulish 22:22
Yeah, it was, I was being victimized for years and years and years and years.
Victoria Volk 22:29
How did you get how do you get out of that? How, how did you flip that script? I mean, I know you said the Tony Robbins thing, but like, how have you kept that momentum going? Is it just the medication that has really helped you? Stay level and?
Bob Krulish 22:45
It’s a lot of other stuff too, Victoria, like, in the past 11 years, I’ve had about 700 hours of therapy. So, I have therapy, sometimes two or three times a week, wow, for an hour at a time. And then sometimes I’m just once a week. And so, I’ve had a tremendous amount of therapy, which has given me a lot of insight to my condition and in myself. And it’s really helped me to reframe a lot of the pain through a lot of different therapeutic techniques. And then I built a lot of different coping strategies to compensate for the loss. You know, I have, I’d like to play golf. It’s a hobby of mine. But golf is also how I do my mindfulness. So, when I’m practicing hitting golf balls, my mind is that it’s only paying attention to the golf ball. It’s no longer in this mess of reminiscing about all kinds of bad stuff, bad thoughts. Normally, if I let my mind just be on its own, it will go to the dark side. So, I found different things, not just golf, but other things to do that kept my mind preoccupied. I started coaching families that have a son or daughter or loved one with bipolar disorder. And as I started coaching them, and getting them the help that they needed, that was very therapeutic for me, and I’ve coached I can’t even count how many families now that I’ve coached where we’ve had some really good experiences you know where the individual got better Yeah, that’s been in just reading the letters I get and hearing the comments on Facebook or wherever. It’s just so sweet. It’s it’s really been very, very therapeutic for me and very it just in a went to show me that really what one of the big keys to eliminating the pain and suffering that comes from bipolar disorder is education. And like you alluded to, like have the judges were better educated about bipolar disorder, they would have seen that I didn’t get it in August 2009. But that I had in my whole life, and they would have seen that I was a good dad with it. And they wouldn’t have put those restrictions on me, but they misunderstand it. And, you know, it’s kind of interesting how you could have not that diabetes is the picnic. And I don’t mean to say that it is. But I know people that are diabetic, and when they got when they got diagnosed, they spent like a week in the hospital, going to classes on diabetes, learning everything about how to manage their diabetes, which is fantastic. And you know, how much education I got, I got nothing, not a thing. I got four prescriptions handed to me by my doctor. And he said, the first doctor to diagnose me said, let’s give these a try. Let’s see if they might work. And I was like, What do you mean might work? He goes, it’s really, it’s random. What might work for you might not work for somebody else. And that was my entire education was just realizing that I’m, I’m about to just take a random shot with psychotropic drugs to see if this will fix me or not. So what I learned through some researchers was that they did some research on what happens when the family is well educated about the bipolar. And any individual, what happens to them, does that make a difference? And there’s researchers, one here in the United States, and one in Barcelona, Spain did a 21 week course, about bipolar. And they found that the people that went to the course, and the families, that those people tripled the rate, though, they got into well being or healthy, and stayed healthy, three times as much as the people who didn’t get the education. So, it was three times more likely that a person would be on the managers illness successfully, if they went to a psycho education course. And so when I heard that and read all this research, then I saw that it had been, it had been replicated many times around the world. I was like, why aren’t we doing this? Why this? This seems like, along with the medication, the therapy, and then the education, everybody could live well with this, why is this being done, and it’s one of those places where research hasn’t really gotten into the practice. So part of what I do is take that research and put it into practice by coaching families, and it’s just so amazing what a big change it makes, once they understand how to deal with bipolar disorder.
Victoria Volk 28:12
We don’t know what we don’t know. Right?
Bob Krulish 28:15
We don’t know, what we don’t know, and, and what we don’t know, it’s hurting us.
Victoria Volk 28:20
Absolutely. That’s great. That’s salt with so much in life. When we make decisions, then out of fear, and what we don’t know then where we’re coming from a decision and processing out of fear, and we push away, and we deflect, and we ignore, and, and it’s out of fear, and what we don’t know
Bob Krulish 28:43
You’re out of fear, or we don’t know you’re right. And what we do we tend to do is we tend to listen to the most outrageous behaviors about about a particular thing like about bipolar, you know, and then we we remember those remember hearing about the person who went bipolar. And so, we’ve all heard stories of people who were bipolar, who did something awful, or at least that’s what you’ll hear on the news. The school shooting is a person of the year is bipolar or schizophrenic. You know, we hear that on the news, or they assume that he has or she has a mental illness. And so, we get locked in there with all these really awful situations. And so the first thing that people are going to think about when they hear that I have bipolar, they’re gonna go Oh, you mean like the guy that shot up all the people at the theater, you know, and that’s in the back of their mind. And it doesn’t give them any room in the front of their mind, to really see it differently. with compassion, with compassion. Right? Right. And where Just statistic, I think we are much more likely to be a victim of a crime than actually a perpetrator of a crime with people with mental illness. But that’s not understood. Because we hear these stories, you know, in the news, so in education about the illness, starts with the family, any individual, but it’s my hope that the work that I do, will make its way into the legal system, where a video course and I’m building on those lessons that were done by researchers, I’m hoping that I can get this video course into the judicial system somehow, to where that can be something that they could learn about bipolar disorder from, and more clinicians to learn more about bipolar disorder and more non, you know, like general practitioners, they get very little education about this in their med school. So, I just have this strong feeling that we can really eliminate most of the suffering caused by this illness, with just the right amount of education. And then that’s something that that’s all it would take, it doesn’t really need a new drug to be discovered. It doesn’t need to be a new therapy does it need to be more drugs, or less drugs, that one thing psychoeducation tripled, the possibility of getting into recovery. And I just blew my mind, when that was all they did was educate people.
Victoria Volk 31:45
You’re more likely to be a victim to yourself as well. Right?
Bob Krulish 31:49
Right.
Victoria Volk 31:50
With bipolar disorder?
Bob Krulish 31:52
Most definitely.
Victoria Volk 31:53
Without that education piece?
Bob Krulish 31:55
Without that education piece, the medications are very difficult to understand, and to in to live with, because they have a lot of side effects. But when you understand them, you’re more committed to them, you know, and what ends up happening is, a lot of times, we don’t like the medication, because we don’t understand it. And we self medicate with either alcohol or drug. And then we have that addiction, along with our bipolar, that’s very, very common is self medicating. And again, it just goes back to learning more about the illness, and that there are 20 different medications you could try. So if you’re having a bad side effect with one of them, most people will just give up with the meds and quit seen a doctor, but would be if they understood that there are other alternatives, but they just don’t know. So it’s a it’s a very disabling illness. It’s one of the biggest causes of disability among people in the world. And and it just blows my mind how if we just could educate the masses about it. It can really, the whole problem can go away. That just blows me away. Every time I talk about it, I’m like, yeah, and that’s, that’s actually all it would take.
Victoria Volk 33:27
And that’s why I wanted you on my podcast. Because I think mental illness has touched my life personally, in my family. And it is something that it, it ripples, and the education piece is huge with grief as well. I mean, I tie everything to grief, because, yeah, your experience is a grieving experience. And it’s just what we don’t know and what we can know what is available to us. adding on to our knowledge base changes our perspective. And when we change our perspective, we can look at things with compassion, look at things differently.
Bob Krulish 34:07
Yes, like I say, we go from contempt, to compassion about that individual, you know.
Victoria Volk 34:14
I love that.
Bob Krulish 34:15
That’s, that’s the goal is to go from contempt. Like the court treated me with contempt to treating me with compassion. And that’s why I wrote wrote a book about my life experience to to give people have at least a little bit of a guide on on how they can be well with a cell Miss, that that book kind of crona Chronicles my whole history with the illness being undiagnosed, and then at least at the very end of the book, we find that I get diagnosed and then I can be much better trying to do everything I can to really spread awareness that this doesn’t have to be as disabling as it can be. For mains and millions of people around the world, in that people shouldn’t have to suffer loss like this. But it is so common that they have so many loss and bipolar, so much grieving going on.
Victoria Volk 35:19
What are some ways we can help others who live with a mental illness? So, I know you say you’re developing this program, and you said education is a huge piece. In navigating when, especially when there are limited resources, when there are when there isn’t as much proactive things happening within a community or it’s still something that is shamed, and there’s access to limited resources, what would you tell those family members and those with bipolar, how they can help themselves?
Bob Krulish 35:56
While there’s a lot of things they can do. That the big one of the biggest things is how we communicate with each other. And other found that if, like, part of my video course that I’m working on is about communicating. And it would be for example, Mom and Dad are frustrated that their son isn’t taking their medication, so they harass them, by asking him, did you take your meds yet? Do you take your meds today? Because he because the kid just said something that they didn’t like? And so they’re like, you must be manic? Are you taking your meds? And that always turns into an argument? But wouldn’t it be cool if they could know that, whether or not he’s either taking the meds or if they’re working or not, without having to ask him, and there is a way if they understood all the symptoms that a person can have. And then they saw those symptoms, the ones that are in the doctor’s manual about bipolar disorder, and that they started seeing those symptoms, they would know for sure that the meds aren’t working enough, you know, and and I always say, let’s assume the meds aren’t working, let’s not assume it’s not taking them. But let’s assume they’re just not working right. And you can have a conversation with your son about you know what, I noticed that you are really talking very fast, and you keep interrupting, and you don’t let anybody else talk. And we learned from that course that that’s a major symptom of mania in and we’re wondering, maybe your meds aren’t working, right. And now now the blame is on the meds that on the kid. And now there’s, there’s a reason to look for a solution.
Victoria Volk 37:49
And that child doesn’t feel shamed.
Bob Krulish 37:53
Exactly, exactly, then feel shamed, then feel judged, and feel criticize isn’t defensive, is looking for now. If the internet especially if the individual has been well trained too, he or she’s going to say, Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize I was talking so fast and interrupting people that is a sign of mania. Let’s make an appointment to go see my doctor.
Victoria Volk 38:19
If I suspect my loved one might have bipolar disorder, what are the signs that I should look for?
Bob Krulish 38:25
My bipolar they’re pretty, pretty obvious. Typically, well, first of all, they have to had some experience with mania. And but but keep in mind, too, that with bipolar, we spend more episodes multiple times many episodes in depression than we do in mania. But it’s the mania that really would be the telltale, that you have bipolar, because if you just saw the depression alone, it could be just major depression disorder. And I don’t mean just just major depressive disorder, because that’s awful. But but it may just be that but if you see the mania, those would be things like they wouldn’t want to sleep. They would. When when I’m manic. I hate sleep. I complain about sleep. I think it’s the biggest waste of time. I tell my my girlfriend, I think this is a big waste of time. I don’t know why people do it. I’m going to stay up tonight, you know, because I have too many things to do. The other thing is they have too many things going on in their mind that they want to do. They have a lot of projects, so they need to stay up all night work on their projects. And we’re very good at starting dozens of things without really finishing anything. So if all of a sudden your loved one started to complain about having to sleep, wasn’t sleeping, could stay awake for 234 nights in a row without being I’m tired, that would be a huge sign that they’re having a manic episode. If they’re very impulsive, and they start just spending money like crazy, they have all these plans of making money through all these different projects they’re going through. That’s another big tell, they’re manic. And they’ll do very grandiose thinking, they won’t have a goal like, like back in my day, when I was a kid, jack Nicklaus was a great golfer, like Tiger Woods is today or is known as today. But back then it was jack Nicklaus. And I would tell all my friends that I was going to be jack Nicklaus, I was going to not only beat him, but I was going to beat all his records, it wasn’t enough that I might just be able to play golf and make a living. My grandiose was, I was also going to be a senator, United States Senator, and I was going to be a jet fighter pilot. And it wasn’t enough just to be a pilot of a plane. But it had to be the fastest super jets that man made. And so those kind of grandiose thinking. And the last thing is you kind of have an ego, as if you’re your divine, you really feel like you’re very, very capable of doing things. So if somebody started just talking really fast, talking about all these ideas, had an idea to build a business where they had no experience and had the grandiose idea of making millions and millions of dollars or doing something really ridiculously huge. Those would be very big signs that they’re in a manic episode.
Victoria Volk 41:42
So, it served you well, though? your mania because you became a wealthy businessman is that is that correct?
Bob Krulish 41:50
Well, between what my ex-wife did, and myself, we did very, very well. And to a degree, it served me pretty well, it helped me do work that that was hard for other people to do. It helped me you know, work 18-hour days when I needed to work 18 hour days, and and I don’t want people to get the wrong impression that, you know, maybe it’d be nice to be manic for a while and get some things done, what ends up happening is that he it’s like a train going down the tracks. And it’s going faster and faster. And it’s pretty cool, because it’s going faster and passing all the other trains on on the tracks. But before you can slow it down, it’ll crash. That’s how you slow it down, there’s no, it just keeps getting faster and faster and faster, and then it gets out of control, and then it crashes. And then you end up using a depressive episode. So, I don’t want don’t want to spend one day manic, because I just don’t know what that might lead to. But it does give you a lot of energy. And it gives you a lot of creative power. And and you see a lot of people that have geniuses or people that are very, very successful, have this illness and road, their manic wave from time to time. But they also if you look in their life, they have loss, they have a live loss.
Victoria Volk 43:21
But in that moment, I imagine it kind of affirms for you it’s an affirming thing, that I mean, you kind of develop a relationship with the mania as something that, you know, like doesn’t that feed back then like you’re having some success, and you’re having this feedback then that this is this is a good thing, like in your mind, like it’s a good thing. And then like I said, you don’t realize it though, until you hit a wall.
Bob Krulish 43:51
You never realize until you hit a wall. And, and what ends up happening is like, nobody makes any sense to you anymore. You know, and you don’t make sense to anybody. And you start just to believe that everybody else is wrong. Everybody else is wrong. And, and I was doing really well in my career, I was helping invent a new way for this insurance company to do business. I was a mathematician, I did all these massive calculations in save the company from being being defunct. And so I’m going fast on the track. I am the guy. And the president of the company is touting my success in all these big meetings around the company, and then all of a sudden, I have an idea of how they should be managing the business that I just helped them create. That was bizarre, but because they didn’t have that idea, I kept challenging the president of the company in these large meetings, I would stand up and challenge him. And saying, you know, you’re wrong, you’re wrong, you’re wrong, this is how we ought to do it. And that’s when train is going off the tracks. And then I was hired. So I went from being praised by everybody in the company for a long time to then being fired, because the train just kept going down the track. When you’re in it, though, you don’t want to lose it. You know, it’s, it’s the most powerful feeling in the world. And it’s the reason why this is so hard to diagnose. Remember, I mentioned earlier that it took forever for me to get diagnosed properly. And that is, in part because when we’re manic, we don’t go see a doctor, we would actually find that to be silly, because we we know more than a doctor knows where we’re the all knowing. And so the doctor doesn’t see us when we’re manic. And that’s the only time they could really diagnosis with bipolar, will show up when we’re depressed. And then if the doctor doesn’t do the right kind of questioning, they might just think we have depressive disorder, because they didn’t probe enough to find out if there was any mania in a person’s life. And so, we don’t go to the doctor. And the other thing that we do more and more manic is that we feel so good, that the last thing we want to do is take any drugs, any medication that might take away this feeling. So, it reads on itself.
Victoria Volk 46:30
If I were to have a family member who was in a state of that mania, what is the best way that? How can I support them? What is what is something I can do? Or anyone listening?
Bob Krulish 46:43
That is the hardest question, that is the tough one. And a lot of times, there isn’t very much he can do, you have to kind of let him ride the thing out, I always say that try to stay as magnetic as you can to the person by not being too judgmental buying by communicating better with them, you know, don’t like I had, I had somebody that I met. And the parents were complaining that their son says that he knows how to live to be 115. And I said, Well, just let me try to have lunch with them. So, we bribe them, and they pay them to have lunch with me. That’s how he’s manic. So, he doesn’t think he needs to talk to anybody. So the very first thing I do, and he had some paper and a pencil, I happen to have paper and pencil with him. And he says, You know what I’ve learned how to live to be 115. And I said, I heard that you know how to do that. And before I leave, you got to write down on paper, how to do it, because I want to live to be 115. So there’s no harm in going there. You know, if it means that he eats healthy, he exercises, great. Maybe he will lead to be 115. We didn’t know that everybody was gonna have an iPhone four years ago. So maybe there is a way. But it was just being I was being magnetic with him wasn’t being repulsive, where the family was fighting him all the time that he brought this up, because they were embarrassed by him, saying that he’s going to live to be 115. And so, when I teach, as I say, just try to stay magnetic during this episode, and write it out. But don’t get disconnected with them. Because that could end ugly. You know, that one time this kid had a restraining order against them. So the family put a restraining order on him on one time. There are several communication strategies that I have that that you can talk to somebody in mania, but it’s very difficult to really get them to pop out of it. It’s so addicting. It’s so it just breeds on itself. You just feel so powerful. It’s just so hard to let it go.
Victoria Volk 49:18
How long generally do those episodes last?
Bob Krulish 49:23
Yeah, that’s a great question. They could last it really varies. They could last couple of weeks or a couple of months. Or even longer. What ended up happening with me here is a little-known fact that ought to be known to everybody. It’s that if a doctor prescribes an anti depressant to a person who actually has bipolar but doesn’t prescribe a mood stabiliser with the anti depressant, that ended depressant will make them mad. Wow, like that, like within days of taking an antidepressant, you will go into mania and the anti depressant will sustain your mania. For as long as you take the anti depressant, that’s how I lost everything. My general practitioner just saw on the depression side of my own my anxiety side, it didn’t see the me and because I don’t go to the doctor when I’m manic, and she prescribed an antidepressant, and then I went into mania. I felt so good. I never felt like I needed to go back to see her. I just needed the prescription to be refilled. So that went on for years, for about three years. That’s how I lost everything.
Victoria Volk 50:48
This blows my mind. Like, what is the Mental Health Organization doing to educate general practitioners on this?
Bob Krulish 50:58
Yeah, not enough right now. Not enough. There’s so much more needs to be done.
Victoria Volk 51:03
Like there’s no screening like, like, this just blows my mind. Like, how is this happening? I’m on board with you. Let’s just scream this to the world that’s letters. Maybe you need the Bob Krulish law, go to congress.
Bob Krulish 51:22
Yeah, while we’re working on stuff like that, we’re working on stuff like that, because the awareness level of that needs to be with everybody. I mean, it’s so dangerous, you know, I’ve, I’m on like, 10 different bipolar groups on Facebook. And this comes up almost every day. I mean, one of these groups, somebody is gonna say, did you take an antidepressant before you got diagnosed, and it made you manic? That’s taking precedent make you manic. Because I went made manic. And I’m like, gosh, every day, I see the same thing happening over and over again, today. I’m not talking about this isn’t like 10 years ago, 20 years ago, these are people today that are on an antidepressant, and they need to be on a mood stabilizer with it.
Victoria Volk 52:16
Question now. So, my loved one is exhibiting signs and symptoms of depression. What then are the signs for someone who has bipolar was not being diagnosed? But who is in that depressive state? Are there differences? Are there differentiating factors to look for?
Bob Krulish 52:38
Yeah, definitely. The depression. You know, would be, you know, what’s what’s what’s really obvious in the depression, is they’re no longer interested in things that used to be interesting to them. Like, like a fire all of a sudden, just didn’t want to play golf anymore. And just rather stay in bed. That would be a big sign that I’ve gone into an episode. So what psychiatrists use is a scale, it’s called the manic scale. And and it’s a it’s a question here, that they asked people before they put them on an antidepressant? And it would, it would say stuff like, in your life, have you ever lost a marriage? Or have you ever started a business? Have you ever had grand ideas about your business, things like that, that would that would try to find out if the person ever in their lifetime ever had symptoms of mania, but it’s this scale that they need to have the individual take. And it’s quite, can be quite extensive line of questioning. But psychiatrists to train with this line of questioning, but general practitioners are not, they really don’t get very much education about mental illness, when you’re becoming a general practitioner, and troubling Fact is, but they have the power not to prescribe an antidepressant to anybody and not doing this thoroughly. causes a lot of people have this illness, and be out of control with it. That’s how I lost everything. That’s how the job law, the jobs of marriage, the kids, the money. That’s what took me to the cabin, was being on an antidepressant.
Victoria Volk 54:49
This is my takeaway from everything you’ve shared. You know, when we have a heart condition, we go to a cardiologist. If we have something funny on our skin, Yeah, we could go to a general practitioner. But why would I go to general practitioner when I could go to a dermatologist, someone who specializes in conditions of the skin? So why do we, as a society leave mental illness to general practitioners? And would that be the one thing that you would love to be changed that a general practitioner could not diagnose depression and prescribe antidepressants? because that’d be one thing that could change that would,
Bob Krulish 55:34
That would change the trajectory of this so much. And I would I love general practitioners on that.
Victoria Volk 55:41
Same here.
Bob Krulish 55:42
I just don’t they, they just don’t have, they just didn’t get the insight. They didn’t get the coursework, they didn’t get the training. This is a very difficult thing to diagnose. Even if you’re a trained psychiatrists, you have to go through this lengthy line of questioning to really uncover whether the person is just a very optimistic person, or are they very grandiose, you know, are they a blowhard, and they never quit talking about themselves, or they have pressured speech that you’d find in bipolar disorder, you know, and you really have to be able to pull these data points out, and they’re just not trained for it. They just don’t they don’t have time in their training foreign. So I would either say, you know, get them properly trained, so they can do these diagnostic scales or tests, or, yes, stop prescribing, antidepressants. I think it’s the number one thing that is prescribed in this country are antidepressants. And you’re absolutely right, you wouldn’t go see a GP about a dermatology thing or, or cardiology thing, you’d go see a cardiologist. Yeah, for some reason, we’ve accepted the fact that we go see a GP, when we’re depressed. Yeah, that would change a lot. There’s so many people, I can’t, I can’t even imagine how many, probably million people that have probably been misdiagnosed sometime in their life, and had manic symptoms.
Victoria Volk 57:29
After my second child, I experienced some postpartum symptoms. And then after my third, it was even more so. And good, I gone to a, you know, general practitioner, and I shared what I was feeling and experiencing and you know, the first thing to do was to prescribe an antidepressant. Right? And there was no question of history of mental illness, there was no quote, you know, maybe she did I don’t remember there’s, you know, I’m sure there is some sort of questionnaire although it was, I’m sure it was brief. My point in saying that, though, is I was never asked, well, what happened to you? And I think that’s maybe one question a general practitioner could ask is, what happened to you? Like you said, what have what have your loss has been Have you had a lot of loss in your life? Right, you know, and that’s how I, that’s my angle when it comes to grief and depression and things like that is what happened to you. Because your life and your messages, it’s like, your life doesn’t have to be a train wreck. To stay on the rails, it doesn’t have to get that far, I guess, is what I’m hearing in your message. Like there. There’s hope. Yeah, for recognizing it early. Without there having to be mania where then by then it’s it can feel like it’s too late, right?
Bob Krulish 58:57
Because it does, too. Because mania will run its course. And then if you’re on an antidepressant, that’s like, given that train enough fuel to just burn itself up, you know, it’s just fuel for the fire. And, and when you’re when you’re manic, it’s the weirdest thing because, first of all, you can’t see that you are. You don’t, you would tell anybody who told you that you’re manic, that they were crazy. I remember I’ve said that so many times the people, I, you know, I say I’m just a visionary. They’ll say your goals are ridiculous. Say I’m a visionary, Walt Disney. You’re like his brother. Pooh poohing the whole idea. Walt Disney. I must have said, I’m Walt Disney a million times about the kind of visionary person that I am, and you’re totally engrossed in it. You can’t see that your new girl the weird one, using everybody else’s, the weird one, you can’t see that you’re then and the worst part is it feels so powerful, you feel so strong, you know, there’s you don’t worry, you don’t worry about anything. You don’t, you don’t, you don’t think anything is impossible you think everything is possible, I call it, you know, you’re you’re infinitely hopeful, you know where, when you’re depressed are infinitely hopeless. And that manic state man is a great feeling. You know, and I have to remind myself, you know, why I take my meds every day, because it is a temptation to go, you know, and be nice, you know, I got a lot of work to do in the next couple of months around my book, and I really would use the boosts of being manic right now. And I just had to remind myself that that, that would be the quickest way to lose the kids again. And the quickest way to lose everything else I got. One of the communication strategies I learned, that worked for me, and that works, everybody that I’ve taught this to, is that I, I don’t call them my bipolar meds, that I call them, I get to still see my kids meds. And, and, and they were, I get to see my kid bands. And when I teach people is a find a reason.
Victoria Volk 1:01:31
Those are your why.
Bob Krulish 1:01:33
What is your why, and let that be it, let it be your and I get, I get to keep a job, man, or I get to have a partner mad, or I have money in the bank mad and and then when you feel bad, or unless you don’t want to have money in the bank, you’ll still stay on the medication. And that’s the secret is to find a y that that would be there no matter how you felt.
Victoria Volk 1:02:04
There’s empowerment in that. Right? There’s so much empowerment in that to feel like you are in control of this thing that feels can feel or take your life out of control.
Bob Krulish 1:02:18
Out of control. Yeah, yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:02:20
I thought of another question too. So, for someone listening to this, what came to my mind was, well, you know, if you go to the doctor, and you suspect that your loved one has bipolar, and they go to the doctor, but they’re in a depressive state, they’re not manic, they get diagnosed, or Yeah, diagnosed, I suppose with depression, and so they’re given an antidepressant? Yeah, the solution in my mind, then, well, let’s get you off the antidepressant. If you start seeing those manic symptoms, what do you say to those thoughts, like to someone who might have might be having those thoughts to a loved one who might be considering getting their loved one off the antidepressant? Or someone listening? Who might just take themselves off or whatever?
Bob Krulish 1:03:07
Yeah, the trick is, one, one thing is that, when they get into that manic episode, they’re not going to want to let go of it. Because it just feels, I mean, I literally thought I can fly. I remember thinking, how weak everybody else was because they couldn’t fly. I’m just so grateful. I never jumped off a building. Wow. But I was convinced that I could fly. So why would I want to stop being able to fly? You know, why would I want to stop this? And so what, where the education comes in? For anybody, it could be somebody that just has a friend that might have bipolar, if they were well educated, they could say, you know what, I’m pretty well educated about bipolar disorder. And I’m not saying that you have it. But I am saying that I see some symptoms that people with bipolar have, like you’re really talking very fast, all the time, and you interrupt everybody, and everybody’s getting upset with you, because you don’t let them talk, you know, and they could start uncovering some of the symptoms that you see. And you can be a mirror to them, you can reflect back what you’re seeing. But you have to know what these things are. You have to be educated.
Victoria Volk 1:04:29
And that was my question too, is circling back to the symptoms. But isn’t that someone who’s in already a manic state that they’re talking fast or can someone who is just in a depressive state still be exhibiting symptoms like that, or characteristics of that?
Bob Krulish 1:04:47
If they’re in a depressive state, they would have a symptom like that, but what you would try to do if you’re trying to find out if they’ve ever had a manic episode is to see if they’ve ever had symptoms. like that in the past? Because that’s a really good question to ask yourself is, you know, do I have any Have I ever exhibited any of the symptoms in my past? I’m about to go on an antidepressant. That’s harmful. If I have bipolar? How do I know, if I’ve ever been mad? And then ask those questions. That’s why I think the education needs to be just about anybody, and everybody, it just doesn’t need to be with people who are currently living with a condition or who have a loved one with it. But it could be really anybody I want to get this information to companies, you know, employers and law enforcement, to judicial system. legislators, doctors, you know, and people, teachers, Oh, my gosh, how cool would this be, if this was taught, you know, and understood somewhere, you know, along the line, it would be amazing. And that would stop here and just prevent so much loss, there’s just so much loss around the stillness, that probably cost billions of dollars the loss, and, and we can really eliminate almost all of it, I think, it’s worth just understanding what the heck is going on. And understanding that when a person’s manic, they are not going to be able to see it, they just won’t be able to understand it. And unless you can give them a lot of good, good evidence, of their manic behavior, without insulting them, and without shaming them without judging them, you know, and, and that’s, that’s a lot of the work that I do is teaching people how to communicate properly, so that they don’t end up making the other person upset. Because if you upset the other person, then you what ends up happening is that many people, whenever in mania will lose all of our friends. Because eventually they just don’t get it. And we’re done with them. We’re done. We’re done with people like that. I’ve lost hundreds of friends, either I didn’t want anything to do with them, because they were too stupid at the time. Or they didn’t want anything to do with me, because I told them, they were too stupid. So, we never got back together.
Victoria Volk 1:07:34
So how has your life changed? How long have you been like under control, had it under control?
Bob Krulish 1:07:43
Probably for a few years, I feel like I’ve had it under control, probably for about three years. And I’ve been medicated for 11 years, I’d say the first eight years was challenging in that we went through a lot of different medications to try to find the right combination of meds. with bipolar, it’s never just one man, it’s usually a combination of meds could be 234567 bands that you’ve taken same time, and we call it a cocktail. And so it took a while to really find a cocktail that worked for me. Now I’m got it well under control, I don’t have any kind of outbursts, I don’t really have any, any signs of mania. And I have very little depression, I take a mood stabilizer to keep the mania away, I take an antidepressant and keep the depression away. And I can live in this little range, you know, they call a new thymic you know, where you’re just in a very normal mood. Instead of being in this range, I’m in this range. You know, in like a normal person, I still have to work really hard at my cognitive thinking to I still have to have the weekly therapy. I still have to see my doctor, I check in with my doctor once a month. And we go over how it’s going. And so those are some of the things that have helped me to stay well. Really just having a big awareness of the illness, understanding the medication, understand therapy, understanding some coping strategies, as helped me to be well with it. And so for the past, I’d say three or four years I’ve been doing really well with it. And I’ve been able to reach out and help others which is the most fun you know, I whether I’m giving a speech somewhere or giving a talk somewhere or doing a workshop or working with people one on one. That’s always the best part of it now for me and it’s another good reason for me to stay healthy because I’m like, I’m trying to be an example to all these people, simply the worst, be the worst if I wasn’t getting enough sleep every night, or, you know, I had to take my own advice pretty seriously.
Victoria Volk 1:10:15
Yeah, they’re also your helper pills. Right? Cause you’re a ripple creator now.
Bob Krulish 1:10:20
I am a ripple creator, I’ve noticed that it really is pretty humbling to know that and, and I’ve gotten a lot of positive comments back from people. To me, it’s kind of like a, like a spiritual place, you know, where you just feel like I’ve been given this gift now that I can help people with the gift of having bipolar in and it’s really, you know, I’m always overwhelmed. When I hear the comments that I get or read the emails that I get. I’m like, What are you talking about, you know, when an essay, I remember one woman wrote and said, I was just about to divorce my husband. I’m so ready to divorce him. And then I saw your videos on Facebook. And I’m gonna give it another chance. I think I understand this now. And I’m, like, so grateful. And I had that video made, you know, yeah, it’s really a good feeling.
Victoria Volk 1:11:25
You are the Tony Robbins for bipolar disorder, full circle.
Bob Krulish 1:11:31
Yeah, this kind of full circle.
Victoria Volk 1:11:36
I have to tell you something too, 2014, that was the first program I purchased was empower the empowered.
Bob Krulish 1:11:45
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That’s great. You might even go into the map, the massive action plan in that program? I don’t know. But that was, yeah, that’s great.
Victoria Volk 1:12:00
There is an opportunity for lightness in the dark, right?
Bob Krulish 1:12:04
There is, there is it helps when it helps to have company in the dark, you know, like, and what I mean by that is, like, like the thing I didn’t like about people. The advice that I hated the most was when people would say, I know how you feel, and it’ll get better. And I’m like, I didn’t know you had bipolar disorder. I didn’t know you lost your family. I didn’t know you had all this happened to you. And they’re like, no, and that didn’t happen. But I just know, you know, you don’t know. No, no. But when I started going to the National Alliance on Mental illness, or they say Nami, Nami see acronym, they have these support group meetings. And I went to a support group. And then I heard people say about the realness, you know, there were people that really did know, there were people that could sit with me in a darkness. Because they been there, you know, and that made all the difference in the world. When I finally started meeting people that really knew what I was going through. So I always say to people, we got to get you in a support group right away, I got to get to meeting people that have this. And so so when they say, like, everybody always says, it’s okay for me to say, it’ll get better. Because I know. I know, from the inside out, I’ve been there. And that that was really the most helpful thing. I probably did. And besides just learning everything I could about the illness was finding other people with it. Thank you for saying that about a Tony Robbins thing. That’s nice.
Victoria Volk 1:13:56
You are a ripple creator. I see it. It’s happening. I someday I am champing for a law, or some changes, big changes for you. I’m cheering you on.
Bob Krulish 1:14:12
Thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:14:15
So, I feel like this was very helpful. I just I had chills so many different times, as I heard you talk. And I think you answered a lot of the questions too, that I feel like yeah, it was good. Very good. Your book, it’s coming out in June 2021, right?
Bob Krulish 1:14:36
Yeah, 2021.
Victoria Volk 1:14:38
I love, love, love the title when screams become whispers I just I love it. I really, I can’t wait to read it.
Bob Krulish 1:14:46
People can go to Amazon and pre ordered if they want. It just won’t get it for a while. But it’s already up on Amazon. I find that to be fun. The people can do that. Yeah, the title is great. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 1:15:04
And where else can people find you? You mentioned you have a course that you’re working on. Correct? But you also mentioned you had some videos?
Bob Krulish 1:15:11
Yeah, they go to either bobkrulish.com or they can go to Facebook and go to my bipolar solutions page.
Victoria Volk 1:15:23
I will get that information from Bob, and I will put everything that you need to get in touch with him to all the resources that he mentioned in the show notes. So, look for those there. Bob, I thank you. Thank you so much. I, I followed my intuition when I came across your bio and your information.
Bob Krulish 1:15:45
So nice of you to say, thank you.
Victoria Volk 1:15:49
I’m just so glad to have you here. So, thank you so much for shedding light on this very important topic. I shared your message. All right, everybody. That is today’s episode, give your feedback, I absolutely do not doubt it’s amazing. But until next time, my friends and when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Suicide |
David Woods Bartley Part II: The Practical Pieces of Suicide Prevention and More
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**This episode is Part II – Listen to Part I HERE*
David is a mental health speaker, educator and holds certifications in Mental Health First Aid for adults and youth, SafeTALK (Suicide Awareness for Everyone), and the suicide prevention technique known as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer), which he mentions in this episode.
In Part I, David shared his story around a day like no other – the day he was going to end his life jumping off of the Foresthill Bridge in California, the 4th highest bridge at 730 feet. A passerby followed their intuition and called 9-1-1 and, his life was saved that day. But, that was only the beginning of his lifelong battle with clinical depression.
As he describes it, David found his way from “mental hellness to mental wellness.” Through his experience of owning and operating a non-adoption animal sanctuary where he and his then-wife took in animals that were sick, lame, or old – he relates his life through stories of working with the animals and what they taught him over the years.
- In Part II, David shares some practical advice for loved ones who witness someone suffering from suicidal ideation and depression and two thoughts: what I call myths of suicide prevention.
- We talk about the role forgiveness played in his life and road to mental wellness and how he’s found his way from self-loathing to self-love (which, for him, has been an ongoing challenge).
- Through the storytelling, he helps the topic of depression, suicidal ideation, and mental health overall be more relatable and helps others to see those struggling with more compassion.
Some of my favorite “Wisdom-Drops” from David in both episodes:
- “People don’t die of mental illness,’ David says, ‘they die from hopelessness.”
- “Connection creates hope. And, hope saves lives.”
- “Sometimes, what hurts the most cannot be seen. And sometimes, what helps the most is easy to do.”
- “Four words that changed my life [as said by my psychiatrist]: It’s not your fault.”
- “If people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut.”
- “Without mental health, there is no health.”
- “Hope awakens harmony.”
Resources from both episodes:
Connect with David:
Victoria Volk 00:08
Hey there. Before we get into this week’s episode, I just want to give a reminder that this is part two. Part One went live last week, the full interviews with David Woods Bartley, He is an educator in suicide prevention, and shares his story through his own experience in this week’s episode, where he talks about how you can’t drag someone from mental health illness to wellness but gives practical tips about what you can do. He also talks about how suicide isn’t the most preventable, preventable death, kind of the myths around that. And some other things you mentioned as well, but we also dig into forgiveness and the role that it played in his life. And he also shares this beautiful quote that I want to share with you right now. It’s by Dr. Drew Ramsey, a psychiatrist and he said, someone you see today, your smile, your question, your love could save them. Trust me, they told me it did. This is a very info packed episode as well as part one, I hope you listen to them both. If you want to reach out to David, you can find him on his website at davidwoodsbartley.com. I’ll also put David’s contact information in the show notes as well as all the resources mentioned in this episode, and the last one, enjoy. And thanks for listening. You know, one of the saddest things for me is to witness people who don’t see their own magnificence. don’t even see their own potential. And I think the status thing, I’m getting emotional, the status thing about it is that so many lives are snuffed out that who knows what they could have been? Yeah. And I think of especially kids. You know, when I reached out to you it was, we learned of a suicide in my area of a ninth grader. And, and I was actually the day that I emailed you.
David Woods Bartley 03:01
Really?
Victoria Volk 03:01
Yes. The day that I emailed you, after I emailed you, I heard of that I learned of that suicide, and it just makes me incredibly sad. How do you help someone see their own magnificence in their own potential?
David Woods Bartley 03:17
It’s, it’s really hard. I mean, one of the things that I tell people is, and here’s the question I get, it’s a variation of what you just asked me, Victoria is, I have somebody that I love, and they, they they’re not willing to help. And I say, here’s the thing, you cannot drag somebody from illness to wellness, you can you can take them, you can force him to go to a doctor’s appointment and stand over him to happen take meds, but it’s not gonna work. I mean, there’s no longevity. And so I think to go back, and in the midst of somebody’s pain, it’s the initial step before we go solution oriented. And that’s our, our loving intent or altruistic motivation. I think first, it’s to create the space to understand the depth of despair that they feel. And again, that may sound counterintuitive. But until we clear that out a little bit way, a little way, there’s no way they can see them like that we have to park the clouds a little bit. And the only way I think we can do that is to allow them to express and then the follow up if we can do that. The follow up is in what are the circumstances what’s going on in which you feel good by what’s happening? And then they’re gonna say, well, for me, it was working with the animals and I’m like, wow, what, what’s it like? Like, can you tell me a story? Can you do anything? And you say, Okay, well, you know, with Joshua, what was it like in that moment? When you held Joshua at this man gave him to you? It’s almost indescribable. I said, you know, do you think what did you have to do with that? I mean, how did you participate? I mean, I guess you didn’t have to take that dog. Right? Yeah. So, one of the things that might below psychiatrists, Dr. C has suggested because I still have these negative cognitions. And they come on a regular basis, not my beloved in my former wife, amazing. My beloved summers amazing. Summer is particularly interested; she hates to see me suffer. And so, what she’ll do is she’ll say, okay, honey, I want you to write down the top five, negative cognitions, that you’re having worthless, not gonna be a good dad, whatever they are. So, say, okay, she listens in this profound way. And then she’ll say, Okay, I hear you. Alright, I think she’ll say, well, I saw you do this, right? And then didn’t you do this, and then you took a short outline what she’s confronting the negative cognitions with just factual statements. And it’s incredibly effective. It is unbelievable. And I keep all them because the negative cognitions will come back. So, I bring that into an answer here that I think one it’s important, just like with summer, what summer does is, let’s first we need to express what is what’s the negativity that’s holding us down right now. And then, to change the conversation to potentially allow somebody to just catch a glimpse of a different perspective, just a little bit of a glimpse. And then maybe explore it a little bit better, or just a little bit more to say, what, okay, here’s what I saw. You know, what do you think about that, you know, there was one that like, I’m never going to be, I’m not going to be a good enough provider and everything else. And so someone says, Well, I think right now you pay for our cell phones, right? Yeah, I do. And then you pay for this right now. And then the other month, you paid for our electric bill and these other things, he says, you know, for me, that’s indication of somebody providing for a family, it is so incredibly effective at changing and really taking dismantling those negative cognitions doesn’t mean that negative cognitions are going to come back. But in that moment, the relief is almost indescribable.
Victoria Volk 07:04
Giving you proof of the opposite being true.
David Woods Bartley 07:07
Exactly. And we can’t do that alone. It’s impossible. I can’t I don’t think we can. You know, we need solitude, but solitude to choice, isolation is not. And so, we need to have time to meditate to contemplate whatever. But we also need the help of other people and for as 57 years old, as middle-aged man, like it’s okay to ask for help. But it’s impossible to become well, it’s impossible to resolve grief, in my opinion, alone. I don’t think he can do it.
David Woods Bartley 07:40
I can’t be mentally healthy alone. It’s impossible.
Victoria Volk 07:43
The healing community for sure.
David Woods Bartley 07:48
Exactly. And hopefully I think, you know, the juxtaposition in terms of the anks in the despair that’s going on now, that is hallmarked by isolation. More and more than I realize, okay, really the only answer to this the simple answers is be connected. You know, you got to be.
Victoria Volk 08:05
On the national news that no, no the other night. I don’t know if you saw it, but they showed it was like a before and after picture of elderly in, in long term care facilities. And it was, it was just, I mean, just Google it. It was on NBC News. But the before and after of a matter of just like, with COVID the I couldn’t even believe the pictures. It was like two different people like one in particular I’m thinking of her face was full. She had you know, color and her cheeks and was smiling. And the next one, it’s like, she was on her side her cheeks sunken in, she was on her deathbed. And isolation is taking so many people too soon.
David Woods Bartley 08:55
Wow. This is you know, I think the monster is licking his chops. And this is exactly what he wants. This is a it’s exactly so we had a one of the horses that came to the sanctuary of his horse named big cloud, he was this beautiful village, smaller Quarter Horse jetblack. He had grade in the face. It’s beautiful. And well, what has happened was some I’ve used this word liberally person had entice big cloud into a trailer, probably with some sweet gray writing, taking them away from where it was, and so big clouds but I think I’ll go for a ride or whatever. Well, this person moves him out Victoria to this desolate place brings takes the cloud out of the trailer and then drives away leaves there to die. And I think that that’s you know, it’s interesting. It’s a paradox that I know a lot of people, a lot of people I’ve heard it’s not uncommon to hear from people who suffer from schizophrenia and hearing voices that at the beginning, the voices are, they’re friendly, they’re supportive, they’re causing depression at the beginning. There is a certain familiarity and comfort around it. It’s kind of It’s weird. be heard. And so I mentioned that because I think that that’s the sweet grain that these maladies entice us into this vehicle. But ultimately, they transport us to isolation and leave us to not. Now in big clouds case, by the grace of life, a ranger in his non regular route discovered this horse, likewise, this horse here and he came to live with us and lived an amazing life fell in love with Dolly. Dolly was this older white Arabian, oh my god, he was so smitten. And you know what’s interesting about that, so they were always together, Dolly Dodd. And Deanna in her brilliance, she allowed big cloud to just stay on this week, the render, we couldn’t do anything with her body for like four days. So, she was covering everything else. Victoria, big cloud stayed with her the entire time never left. And when the rendering truck came to take her body where we had DNS, and we need to let cloud be here, and so he saw her body be taken away. And then he stayed in the pasture for a while. And then at one point after time, he went back to the other pasture and stood at the gate saying, you know, I’m ready to rejoin her. So, it was solid at the sanctuary so many different times in which animals so openly revealed and expressed and then ultimately resolved their grief that they didn’t, they didn’t try to avoid it. Just like okay, we’re gonna delve into it head on. And I think in that regard, they were very mentally well, and you know, it’s funny because looking back now, DNI had established a whole person care system for the animals because we cook for him, we have practitioners come to their body was taken care of their psychological being was was supported in a safe environment. And then they were connected. They had a foundation, albeit a spiritual certainty about what was going on. And so, I think that model, if we transpose it, or transfer it to as an example for human wellness, that’s it.
Victoria Volk 12:07
Learn from nature, right?
David Woods Bartley 12:10
Oh, man, I mean, even talk about some working on a book. It’s funny. just laugh at the title. It came from life didn’t come from me. So, book is they pooped, we scooped unexpected wisdom picked up, sank in an animal sanctuary.
Victoria Volk 12:28
Sounds like a movie.
David Woods Bartley 12:31
These are there’s all these different stories.
Victoria Volk 12:35
There is though, is there a movie based on a true story of a man that opened an an animal sanctuary?
David Woods Bartley 12:42
No, no, yeah, there’s I think there’s a couple one is think didn’t mess, Matt Damon played in the one.
Victoria Volk 12:50
Here we opened an animal sanctuary, I think that was leaving the title.
David Woods Bartley 12:56
There’s some amazing people who are doing great work and sanctuaries, all over the, you know, the granddaddy of them all his best friends in Utah, they have somewhere close to 3000 animals. There’s another one in New Hampshire called rolling dog, which is incredible. They take special needs animals. There’s a great place in Southern California called gentle barn. There’s an organization that used to be in California in New York, called Farm Sanctuary. So and then, especially in the dog, world, dog and horse in particular, there there is hundreds upon hundreds of small independent rescue organizations that come to be because of an individual’s love for a particular role. I guarantee there’s a havanese rescue, certainly our Boston Terrier rescues and everything. And these people work, basically with no money. And they, they’re tireless because they want to help this these beings that means so much to him. So a lot of our animals came from different frontline rescue organizations, when they had an animal that was almost impossible to adopt, because we didn’t know adoption. So, they would give us the old ones and the sick ones. And so, there are great people out there doing amazing work.
Victoria Volk 14:11
How did you move beyond that grief of losing that thing that was so important to the sanctuary? I mean, and your spouse? I mean, at the time, too, I mean, you lost everything.
David Woods Bartley 14:24
Oh, it was. Yeah, I’m still processing it. I still. And you know, it’s interesting, Victoria, it’s, you know, again, our timing, I just realized this at the moment I in particular, and I’m sure there’s some part of the COVID thing I also think in an ongoing commitment. The one thing I’ll give myself credit for is to be incredibly consistent on self care. that some of the other things have been processed and moved away and so like you had talked about there’s there’s some, I mean, we all I shared with you we had 90 animals dying 20 years I mean, it was so busy, sometimes an animal would die. In the morning, and then another new one would come in the afternoon because there was so few places for the type of animals in that state would come. And so, right, it’s just finishing last couple months, like the grief around the sanctuary in the loss to say, tan. And so I try to remember, grief has arrived, not to annihilate me, but to support me, to allow me to cry a lot. I write different stories, when I tell these stories about the animals, I still have shame around the fact that I lost everything. And that is dangerous, because then that can, the monster can grab ahold of that. So I would love to say that I have processed all my grief, but there are some parts, you know, I may continue to grieve for maybe the rest of my life. And you know, I don’t say that in a debilitating way. It’s just, it’s really, you know, to have something in which I thought was going to be the rest of my life to have it be taken away. It’s That’s hard. Yeah, really, really difficult. But thankfully, I don’t, I don’t endeavor I, I am working my way through with a lot of people now like in with you, that I get to have this beautiful relationship with you, somebody I can talk specifically about grief work.
Victoria Volk 16:26
Well, and I don’t think we necessarily ever arrive unless we become the monks. You know, I think we’re always going to be processing and peeling back the layers and kind of really learning how to unlearn a lot of the unhelpful and hurtful things that we put in our backpacks. You know, growing up as children, because actually, this circles back to a point that I actually wanted to bring up is that when trauma doesn’t have to be molestation, right, sexual abuse, anything like that, and I want to circle back to that, because one of the very first losses children often have is a pet loss. Right? So, coming back to like, you know, Animal Sanctuary and things like that, that can be traumatic for a child. And pet loss and miscarriage are two of the most minimize losses. And so, what is a parent’s first instinct when the child loses a pet? was okay, Johnny, we’ll get another one. Right, David, let’s just go to the pet store, we can get another one. Not really acknowledging and let the child process and share how they their feelings of losing the first pet that they felt connection to. Right, right. Let’s just replace it. So that’s the very first lesson most of us receive as children about how to process grief. We don’t process it, we just replace it with something else. Right? Something else to make us feel better, right?
David Woods Bartley 17:55
I agree. 100%. And I think not to shame myself, and I can without it being an excuse. I think how busy DNI were, I mean, on the one hand, you could say, well, didn’t you do that? Didn’t you just replace them? And say no, I mean, I think was different. And I think one of the things you know, both Deanna and I would agree, the sanctuary became too big. And you know, we should have topped Captain at a certain amount. Maybe there would have been spaces in our, in our life at that point to be able to process loss. And every animal that that transition did so in an incredibly dignified, beautiful manner, it was there was a ceremony and this beautiful accord, and they were, I used to tell the animals, okay, here’s your job, you know, your job is to be adored. That’s it. That’s all you got to do. And so they were cared for and loved in ways that were extraordinary and passed in their own time. And just the remnants of it, you know, remain on me. It’s, it is it is hard, but I know grief is not here to beat me up. No grief in you and I talked about this, it’s, it sounds almost weird, but grief is my friend.
Victoria Volk 19:08
It’s my teacher. It’s been my teacher.
David Woods Bartley 19:11
Yeah, it’s, you know, and then you know, grief of losing my father grief of losing my innocence, all these different things that, you know, there’s so many aspects of grief and like trauma is trauma and grief is grief. It’s all individualized, it’s personal. It doesn’t something that doesn’t traumatize me Can traumatize you. Doesn’t, you know why? And so we need to just be accepting and there’s no timetable for healing of trauma, or healing of grief. Take as long as you need.
Victoria Volk 19:35
Time just passes. It’s the action you take in time that matters.
David Woods Bartley 19:41
You know, what, between the two dashes in terms of dates, time we live in a time.
Victoria Volk 19:47
Is there anything else? I mean, I feel like this was such a very, very deep good conversation.
David Woods Bartley 19:55
Oh, I just I’m so blessed that we’ve connected.
Victoria Volk 19:59
I feel like there needs to be too Like a part two or something?
David Woods Bartley 20:02
I have a lot more stores there is this saying I would highly recommend Johanns TED Talk is. And he tells the story, this goes back the whole thing of connection that this was a scientific study that we’ve all heard of it that, you know, they put a rat in a cage and there was a bottle of cocaine laced water and regular water rat always went to the cocaine loweswater killed himself, like, Oh, my God, that’s what humans are doing. Somebody came along later and said, Hold on, rats are very social, you’ve isolated this being. So they recreated the experiment. And so they made like rat topia, there were other rats that were hills, there were tunnels, there was food, and there was water, and the same two bottles, didn’t drink cocaine, didn’t really make sense because they were connected. They’re part of a tribe. So you know, we, especially around grief, as somebody takes what we would consider in our, in my ignorance, what’s taking me too long, not so much now, but it’s taking you too long to get over. This. Doesn’t matter how long it takes, it’s okay. But if we, if they feel misunderstood, they’re going to retreat. And then they’re going to fall back into the caustic arms of the monster. And there’s where be like, it’s kind of like big cars going into that. That horse trailer. There’s a certain bizarre enticement, and nobody understands me. But this feeling of despair, if nothing else is familiar. And there’s a certain comfort because I know what it feels like I can hang out here because nobody understands. But people think I’m being stupid people. People don’t understand that I can’t get out of bed, because depression is literally weighing me down. Why am I crying? I can’t do my job, or whatever it is why? Why did I want to kill myself? Why have I attempted suicide? Not my case. But why am I cutting? Why? Why have I attempted suicide more than one? Whatever it is, because we don’t understand when people when we feel misunderstood, we’re going to retreat, we’re going to retract. And if we get too far down into that hole, it’s like that beautiful ninth grader. There’s no coming back? No one. I don’t know. They say, I don’t know if I agree with this, per se. You know, they say that suicide is the most preventable form of death? No, you know, I think I think the problem I have with that is there’s one way that that comes out is that it’s all our responsibility to save one another. And that’s how I think that’s true. I mean, there are certain people that are gonna die from suicide. It’s just That’s a fact. It’s just the way that it is. And I’m not being cavalier about that. But that that’s just the way that it is you cannot drag somebody to wellness, there needs to be a responsibility on the person. I’m not saying it’s easy. But I think, to suggest it’s the most preventable form of death. What that also would say is that the that it’s a person is capable of completely resolving trauma and grief and everything else. And I think sometimes it’s just, I think it’s too much. It’s just too much. And I say it to just to add in, I think what’s important is an aspect of realism. Because I think if we don’t, and we lose somebody to suicide, I think we feel like we fail. And then we feel misunderstood. So I think it’s, you know, I’m contrarian to some of the things that are said in regards to it. The other. The other thing that comes up, which I don’t agree with, is this whole notion that we those of us who are contemplating and then attempt suicide, really what we should do, we need to know what the impact is going to be in other people. And I’m like, okay, that’s illogical, because in that moment that I was going to kill myself, I honestly believe that Deanna and the sanctuary, and everybody would be far better off. So, you’re asking me to consider something that’s completely arbitrary to how I feel in the moment. I’m not saying that that’s not important. But I think if we try to have that be like, as a missionary statement, like, Okay, well, we’re gonna add suicide as if people realized in that moment that it was the ripple effect would be devastating. Okay. That doesn’t work.
Victoria Volk 24:07
You wouldn’t be having that conversation, if you know.
David Woods Bartley 24:15
It helps me now. When summer my sweetheart will sit with me. And if I have a suicidal thought, and we’ll talk about what would be the impact, there’s a likelihood is negligible at this point, but I still have a thought, and someone will say, what would the impact be like on grace, like, Okay, I get it, like now, I understand. But I wouldn’t have understood that nine years ago. You have to arrive at this point of understanding and so I just think, you know, as we as we endeavor to overcome these maladies, we have to approach it differently. And I think there’s a lot of good messages which if you look at what we can do for a suicidal friend is first talk to him. You know, and that’s why question persuade, refer, just question the person, persuade them to stay alive and then refer them to get Help it CPR for mental health, your new are completely capable of doing that now. And it’s leveraging, ultimately understanding to create connection. That’s it. And then you escort them, you journey with them, you companion with them to, to somebody who can offer professional support. Our job is not to save people. That’s not what we’re supposed to do. Our actions ultimately may, but if we go into that, with that our intent, we’re going to screw it up.
Victoria Volk 25:29
Two things I want to bring up before we close our conversation. In grief recovery, we try to get people to understand that they don’t need to take 100% responsibility for themselves or their lives, they only need to take 1% responsibility, or at least just 1% responsibility. So my next question for you then is what role did forgiveness play for you? Not only of yourself, but for others in your turning your life around.
David Woods Bartley 26:04
That’s such a great life quote. Yeah, that’s, I mean, the most difficult has been Of course, to forgive myself, which I still have a hard time. And there’s where the negative cognition sitting with my beloved. Yeah, I mean, there were some folks especially at the end, that I think the ending could have been really different in terms of how the sanctuary ended. And it’s interesting if you Google, my name, like the second thing that comes up is this person who was a board member accused us of fraud at the end, which ultimately, there was none. And then if you read through the whole article, it was like how many 10s of 1000s of dollars that we gave and everything else but I mean, just so I forgiven that person, you know, to to you know, I remember hearing somebody say that, when you if I were to hold anger with somebody, in fact, what I’ve done is really I’ve I’ve connected myself with them energetically. And so the forgiveness is probably more beneficial for me than for them and then I think maybe probably one of the worst things I could do is if I ever saw this person again is to say well I forgive you Well, they may not think they’ve done anything that needs to be forgiven. And so the forgiveness is about me and it’s, it’s better and I’m getting better and better and better and the more that I’m able to do it, it’s it helps so I think I have forgiven and I’ve taken responsibility I’ve endeavored to make amends to my former beloved and our neighbors and in the things in the slight errors that I thought that I’ve made and to express my grief and sorrow that things didn’t end differently so I feel like I’ve done the best that I could do to make amends to take responsibility and there’s still some remnants so and so anytime I have a thought of unforgiveness for others I try to process that and in order to be fully transparent I still have a really difficult time forgiving myself tar I think actually I should have done this different I should have done this differently and there’s you know, thank God because of the extraordinary soul I have as a partner and then the other one that I had to the other person who just helped me to look at Okay, you know what? Yes, mistakes happen you know, there’s somebody a dear friend of mine was given a talk and talked about this whole thing forgiveness and she said well maybe look at it this way if it happened again, would you do the same thing? like wow, no, I wouldn’t I would have done a whole bunch of stuff to at the core would still be taken care of zero but there would be a whole bunch of stuff that she says okay, then you learn from it. You know, ultimately, you got to give yourself a break, at least for me.
Victoria Volk 28:44
So that ties in to my neck, next question or point or thing you want to ask you so in grief and when you feel like that when you have that shame and things like that we have this self self loathing. So, what does self love the opposite of self loathing? What does self love look like to you now?
David Woods Bartley 29:05
That’s difficult too. So, I’m really good at working out and and yet, there’s almost no morning that I wake up Hey, ready to go workout? And yet I do my thing you know, and it’s so what I will oftentimes do is I’ll look in the mirror and say, you know what, you didn’t want to do it. And you did it. That’s really good. So I’ll I will look for ways small ways in which I can use the word stomach that’s maybe not much I can accept acknowledgement of myself like okay, you know, you’ve done a good job and so I think that’s at the feeling emotional level, in which I can look at myself sometimes literally, because I have a body dysmorphia thing i’m sure from being raped and some other stuff, but I just I don’t like to look at myself and I will endeavor to try to force Myself and then give myself some sort of affirmation, which is not, I think the best thing that I will say to myself, and it feels good to say, You know what? You’re good. Do you really, you’re really good. Do you really endeavouring. Yeah. And when I do, it feels really good. So it’s a work in progress. I wish, I really wish it wasn’t so hard. You know, I’ve battled myself for 50 some years, and I still do. It would be, you know, I have some momentary feeling experiences when I’m not when I’m not in opposition myself. And it’s God that feels good. You know, like, if my own worst enemy is myself, like, that person just didn’t show it that, that it’s, it’s tough. You know, I, I don’t know, if I’d have the same level of difficulty if I didn’t have this condition. And, and I was thinking to kind of serve all the way back. Would I have this condition without the trauma that I experienced? I don’t know. I mean, I would venture to say no, because my three brothers who I adore, they don’t have this. They don’t have the same father. They were older when my dad died, but they hadn’t suffered this other trauma. So, thank God that kind of meandering question modern answer was?
Victoria Volk 31:11
No, it’s, I think, I think we could probably talk for another two hours. I just want to share, there’s one book that I read not long ago. I don’t know if you’ve read it but breaking the habit of being yourself. Dr. Joe dispenza, just ties in with what we were just talking about. Because you said something, and that reminded me of the book title. And the other book I’m reading right now is love yourself, like your life depends on it? And I think it does. Yes. And I think that’s, I’m not quite halfway through it. But I think you’ll like that book, too. Just talking about self loathing to self love. And I think just sharing what I’ve shared, and you share what you shared, I just think that the the one truth that I feel now, for me, is true for me, I don’t know that we can give to others what we can’t give to ourselves.
David Woods Bartley 32:05
No, I agree. You know what, I totally agree. And so, you know, I feel no pressure. But I’m motivated to resolve this within myself, so I can give it to the kids and my beloved, and the world. But no, I agree. What’s theirs. I mean, use the G word just, just because it’ll put it in better context is a great minister, who has since made his transition, but a big influence. I love his talking. It said, God can only do for us what God can do through us. So, in other words, so yeah, it’s, you know, we can’t give away what we don’t have to possible. And there’s where, you know, I think this whole aspect of self care, if you say, well, you need to prioritize yourself can put yourself on a pedestal persona, you got to put other people first, okay, you know what, that’s doomed to failure. If your compass empty, if your tank is empty, you have nothing to give. So, if I have if I if my if I’m able to love myself, orlin put it this way. I’m gonna be able to love the kids and summer to the extension of myself. When I switch it like that, I’m like, Okay, all right, I got to make a change, because I want to love more precisely because makes me feel good. You know, I feel good. And if that’s selfish, so be it. But the better I feel, the more I’m able to be of service to other people. I get to read something. This is the other book. My grandfather’s blessing to check this out. By show off girl, frickin brilliant. I would love this would be on my this is on my bucket list now is to meet Dr. Rehman, she lives in Northern California, she must be hiding because I can’t find her. Anyway, this is so cool. She says the best definition of service I have come across is the single word belonging, service is the final healing of isolation and loneliness is the lived experience of belonging. So it’s all these things that we do in support of one another, ultimately, were the greatest benefactor. Because, you know, when we feel like I certainly feel the same way when we feel like we belong to something to somebody somewhere at some time in some place to all good, you know, or at least it makes it it’s culpable. if that’s a word, that’s a word, but yeah, it’s it’s the last day last year I’ll let you go because I could talk to you for hours. Hope awakens harmony, and here’s what so we had two puppies at the sanctuary. Most everybody else so we went one non rescue dog. Her name is crazy about Boston Terrier, so help with this brindle colored, gorgeous, cute, ridiculously wonderful pop, and so on. While we are waiting for hope to be weaned from her mom, Deanna went on the dreaded Petfinder, which is the best pet adoption site in the world. And she came to me and she says, you know, what do you think about this? And it was this picture of an eight, another eight week old Boston Terrier puppy, but jetblack with this very devilish smile. I’m like, why is this dog on Petfinder? We’ll come to find out she was 100% deaf. And I’m like, What in the hell of a deaf dog Well, I lost thankfully, I lost the argument and we got harmony. So we picked up help harmony on a Sunday help on a Monday. And so here’s what would happen I would come into the house and hope would come to greet me. And then she would turn around and she’d go wake up or sister harmony who couldn’t hear then she bring harmony so hope awakens harmony, and then be there and all hope and harmony wanted to do is just be with me, there was no demands that just wanted me to get on my hands and my knees and to cover me with kisses and affirmations and love and to say, Papa, come sit down on the, on the couch with us and let’s take a nap. And, and I think it’s the same thing in our life is that hope never comes alone. Hope always brings something with it. It can be patience and understand. I think it oftentimes is harmony, because inherent in harmony. When things are harmonious. Like there’s a certain aspect of certainty and reliability, like you know what, it’s all gonna be okay. And so whatever we can do, to step into the door, and to be welcomed by hope we can be guaranteed that hope is going to awaken something else most often. It’s going to be harmony.
Victoria Volk 36:42
There’s another book title.
David Woods Bartley 36:43
I know. I know. Hope awakens harmony, I know. And harmony, she had the loudest bark. I mean, it was screeching. I don’t know cuz she couldn’t hear us. I mean, she was 100 people to just want to get her hearing check them like, Okay, let me show you. Let me scream at her. But the other thing is, hope has an aroma. Hope has a certain sense. So, in the times when say hope was with mom or something, and I would walk into the house and harmony was fast asleep hence the truth. The truth is deaf dogs get the best sleep in the house, that’s just so in those instances in which hope wasn’t there to Awakener I would walk up. And this is what happened every time. Sometimes it was instant. Sometimes it would take a minute, harmony, all of a sudden, Victoria, her head would swing I mean just pop up. Like all of a sudden she could hear and I yelled her name. Well, her said was so enhanced because of her deafness, you have to think and then out of the million different sense somehow she could distinguish mine. And what she would do is her head would pop up and then she would focus her eyes and she would see was me and she’d come running up me and dive literally put her head right in the middle of my chest and move back and forth and then take like little bites of my skin. Or like she was with this part me this, this being that meant more to her than anything in the world. And so she was awakened by the realm of hope. And again, I think that your we can be in this catatonic state of grief or mental illness or whatever it is. And that little essence of hope it has a very distinct aroma. It can awaken us from our slumber and ideally, you know, move us into a different place than if nothing else in the moment feels better.
Victoria Volk 38:41
So, do you think it’s part synchronicity, happenstance? And maybe a little bit of intuition as to what we find then that helps us awaken?
David Woods Bartley 38:54
Oh, absolutely. No, no, I absolutely. And I think it’s you know, there’s this great again, I don’t propose any sort of spirituality, I my own I’m radically inclusive of life, that there’s this great, and I think it’s an African proverb of prey and move your feet. So, in other words, I think we all are gifted with a sense of intuition, but then we it needs to be activated. So, serendipity, you and I, so we could have met, but never had this. So, there was the the universe gave us the gift the universe orchestrated things so that you and I could meet that system, what are we going to do with it? So, we spend this first two hours of our relationship being incredibly connected. So, I think it is but you can also do too much activity and not have enough kind of sacred consideration of what’s going on to it. So, my mother Suzanne used to always like to say she say, Honey, moderation is the key. So, mom was talking. It’s all about balance, you know, too much of anything too much. Sunshine burns. Yeah, yeah. No. So I agree with you. You said a beautiful and I think Ultimately, we know what’s in our best interest. We do. Sometimes, though, more often than not, we just need people heading down that road is too scary to do it alone. And like, I don’t need you to say anything, I just would you just please go with me? I think that this like, okay, and we can do that for one another, you know, we can drive with somebody to go to their doctor’s appointment, you know, hey, the first time you take a medication, how about I go to the pharmacy with? I may not want it but imagine somebody offering, like on the first day that you’re going to take medication? Like, would you like me to go with you to the pharmacy? We can pick that up together. And I think it is those simple acts just, they come with what I call the power of an unexpected gesture, because we don’t we don’t expect people to do those sorts of things.
Victoria Volk 40:45
So good.
David Woods Bartley 40:48
You’re so good.
Victoria Volk 40:50
Is there anything else that you would like to share?
David Woods Bartley 40:54
Yeah, I mean, the bigger the thing is, I think you can handle one more story. I’ll try to review it. I just told this. I just told us for the first-time last night, I’ve written about it. So, here’s the truth. I think what happens is we see a circumstance that goes back to this whole thing that I think oftentimes we’re we don’t think we’re qualified or capable. But what if I told you that you can save a life just by sitting down? So, one of the Boston terriers that came to the sanctuary was Doug Murphy. And again, you had to fit into one of these four categories. And when Murphy arrived, I got this stunningly gorgeous. Guy along with everybody loved him, and I’m like, okay, someone like kind of slipped him in my radar. Like he had no special need at all. But not long after he got there. The first time he ate, he ate and ate and ate and then threw up everything. So, I thought, okay, maybe he’s a little nervous. Well, it happens the next day, same thing happens the next day, same thing like okay, well, something must be wrong. Take him to the vet, to the car. I mean, his vitals are good, and we don’t know nothing’s wrong. And so it keeps going on. Well, Deanna, just this amazing soul, every animal that came to the sanctuary became her baby. And so she’s like, okay, we’re gonna figure this out. And so, lo and behold, Deanna figures out that Murphy has this thing called mega esophagus. So, in other words, his esophagus is enlarged to the point where it doesn’t contract. It can’t do its job to take the food from the mouth and the throat down to the stomach. And absent that, a dog standing on all fours. So what happens is, he’ll die because he eats. It goes partway down the throat, but the esophagus doesn’t move it along. And so he doesn’t throw up. He regurgitates it looks the same, but it’s different. So dogs die from this. So Dee is like, Okay, well, that ain’t gonna happen on my watch. So she comes up with his brilliant solution, she watches Murphy, he and she knows the point the exact time when he’s eating enough. And but he, you know, is about to regurgitate. And so she scooped him up and propped him up, head and back against her chest. And she say, okay, but sit down. And then she’d give Murphy to me, just like you would imagine, like the crown jewels being passed over. And then I would sit there with Murph, his back against my chest, his head on my shoulder, his whiskers tickling my cheek, and a lot of times, we would just fall asleep in that position, just propping him up, life as gravity did the job of malfunctioning anatomy and brought the food down into the place where then if we sat there long enough, you can consume it. And Murphy always knew when the time was up, and she’s about 3030 minutes or so, and then he would jump down and play. And so that’s how his life was saved. Save a Life by sitting down. And I think the same thing that’s happening, be it great for anything else is we can have a seat and have a conversation with somebody, we can have a seat and have a meal, we can have a seat and watch a movie, we can have a seat and go visit them. In the psychiatric hospital. We can have a seat in our car and trance and go with them somewhere. We can all save lives just by sitting down. And so I think my final message is just that. Never underestimate kind of paraphrasing, but the great Maya Maya Angelou said, never underestimate what an individual’s small act of kindness continue to change your life. And in fact, I’ll end with this last thing, and I promised I will let you go. There was an amazing psychiatrist Dr. Drew Ramsey in New York means this one quote, in which he talks about the issue of suicide as a problem and a solution. One short paragraph, these are Dr. Ramsey’s words, not mine. Dr. Ramsey tells us, someone you see today is thinking about killing themselves. Your smile, your question your love could save them. Trust me. They told me at that. That’s impactful. He’s pretty cool. He’s brilliant guy.
Victoria Volk 44:53
Well, folks, if you don’t look at your dog, the same after today.
David Woods Bartley 45:00
She’s outside the door right now kind of whining.
Victoria Volk 45:04
Oh, no, really, I mean, it makes it memorable. Like the storytelling of all the stories that you’ve shared makes it memorable. It makes it relatable. It makes it impactful. That’s genius, by the way, and I just love how you’ve tied it into your message. Thank you so much.
David Woods Bartley 45:25
Well, yeah, and all credit to my former Beloved, and the great people and amazing animals. And you are so welcome. And again, I can never thank you enough for what you’re doing, to take this topic and have it be your passion and to be of selfless service to so many people, you’re a lot like, you may not be given the gift to know how many people that you save and unburden. But it’s a new age because you don’t just help that person, that person then helps somebody else and somebody else and somebody else.
Victoria Volk 45:55
It is my mission that we talk about grief, like we talk about the weather.
David Woods Bartley 46:01
Got it, and I say let’s make mental illness, a casserole disease. And someone comes home suffering from mental illness, let’s bring them a big good, just like we would any other instance.
Victoria Volk 46:13
I love that. I love that. So many quotes.
David Woods Bartley 46:20
Kind of goofy.
Victoria Volk 46:21
No, I love it. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. Um, I’m gonna, I might do this in two parts, actually, this podcast episode.
David Woods Bartley 46:31
And please do, whatever I can do to serve you, or anybody else. You know, if somebody wants to talk, or whatever, want to hear a story, I’m here to serve my job.
Victoria Volk 46:40
I love it. Um, I’m actually going to put all the things that you mentioned in the show notes reference in the show notes. And thank you. Thank you for the work that you’re doing, for sharing your story for going first. It’s like I said, we never fully arrive. We shouldn’t be journey alone.
David Woods Bartley 47:03
No, no. Amen. Well, you are a delight and joy and I have a new lifelong parental. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your trusting conference. Thank you for choosing me.
Victoria Volk 47:15
My intuition.
David Woods Bartley 47:17
There you go. Nice. Gizmo for me.
Victoria Volk 47:21
Air hugs. Thank you so much. And everybody, I hope you enjoyed this episode. or two. I think I might do two I don’t know we’ll see. But if this was helpful to you, please share it with somebody you know, or love and share the love on Apple podcasts if you don’t leave a review for David’s fantastic words of wisdom. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Suicide |
David Woods Bartley Part I: A Day Like No Other & How Connection Saved His Life
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**This episode is Part I of II: Listen to Part II HERE**
David is a mental health speaker, educator, and holds certifications in Mental Health First Aid for adults and youth, SafeTALK (Suicide Awareness for Everyone), and the suicide prevention technique known as QPR (Question, Persuade, Refer), which he mentions in this episode.
David shares his story around a day like no other – the day he was going to end his life jumping off of the Foresthill Bridge in California; the 4th highest bridge at 730 feet. A passerby followed their intuition and called 9-1-1 and, his life was saved that day. But, that was only the beginning of his lifelong battle with clinical depression.
As he describes it, David found his way from “mental hellness to mental wellness.” Through his experience of owning and operating a non-adoption animal sanctuary where he and his then-wife took in animals that were sick, lame, or old – he relates his life through stories of working with the animals and what they taught him over the years.
Also in this episode, you will hear tips on what to say to someone who is dealing with depression and possibly suicidal ideation, receive an education, overall, around the topic, and learn how all of us have a role in ending the stigma associated with mental health. We also discuss mental health in kids, and the role curiosity plays in helping those suffering.
“People don’t die of mental illness,’ David says, ‘they die from hopelessness.”
Some of my favorite “Wisdom-Drops” from David in this episode:
- “Connection creates hope. And, hope saves lives.”
- “Sometimes what hurts the most cannot be seen. And sometimes, what helps the most, is easy to do.”
- “Four words that changed my life [as said by my psychiatrist]: It’s not your fault.”
- “If people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut.”
- “Without mental health, there is no health.”
Resources:
Connect with David:
Victoria Volk 00:08
Hey there, Pardon the Interruption before the episode actually starts. After I edited the two-hour podcast episode, I decided to break it up into two parts only because there’s so much information, good good information, that I felt like there needed to be some sort of time to like process what you’re listening to. Because there is so much goodness in there. And I just felt like to it would help. You’re more likely to listen to the whole thing if it’s not almost two hours long. Right? So, this is now part one with the interview with David Bartley. And in this episode, he, I mean, we talk a lot about connection. He gives practical questions to ask someone who is potentially having some suicidal ideation. He speaks of a day like no other, which was the day that he was going to jump off of the fourth tallest bridge in the country, which is near San Francisco. And it is not the Golden Gate. Actually, it’s Forest Hill bridge, which is taller than the Golden Gate Bridge. He shares that personal story and talk we talk a lot about depression itself. Mental Illness overall, he shares a lot of resources that I will probably put in the show notes for both episodes just because I feel like I don’t want anyone to miss any of the good things he had to share. Also, in this episode, he shares suicide prevention technique called QPR, which stands for question, persuade, refer. And he shared a quote by Dr. poliquin. net, which I absolutely loved. He said it’s the unasked questions that lead to tragedy. And so we talked a lot about connection. And it’s just so many amazing ways that we can support others who are dealing with depression, who may have suicidal ideation. And really, it’s so informative because I learned so much and to really hold each other’s hearts in our hands and understand that there is a battle and some people that we can’t see sometimes. So, enjoy this episode. Come back for part two. What I also failed to mention at the end of the episode is that you won’t hear at the end of this episode because it’s the first half. But at the end of Part Two, I also had forgotten to ask David where people can reach him. It was just an amazing conversation that slipped my mind but if you would like to reach out to David, you can find him on his website, David Woods bartley.com and I’ll put the link to that in the show notes. He’s also on Facebook, David W. Bartley dot five, the number five. Again, I’ll put the links in the show notes. He also has a TED talk, titled How connection saved my life. This is just an amazing conversation. I’m very proud of this episode. both parts actually is one episode split into two but enjoy, share with someone you know and love. Because you never know it could save a life. Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Today my guest is David Woods Bartley as a mental health speaker, educator and trainer. David has seen his fair share of successes and setbacks from directing a nationally recognized nonprofit to battling a life-threatening mental illness. It was the ladder a brutal knock down, drag out fight with clinical depression. That led David to a suicide attempt. Welcome to the podcast. David thank you so so much for being here. I’m excited because like I’ve shared with you before and email. And before we started to record, this is a topic, mental health, suicide prevention is something that is very much needed, I think everywhere, but I definitely feel it within, in my state and my community and surrounding area. So again, thank you for being here. And welcome.
David Woods Bartley 05:27
Thank you, Victoria, thank you so much. And thank you for the work that you’re doing not just to shine the light on mental health, but in particular grief, because I think it is, every person, not everybody will have an experience of depression or suicidal ideation. But we all experience grief. And I think that there’s, I think that there’s an equal stigma to grief. And there’s always a timeline associated if we lose somebody, then we have X number of days or weeks or months to process it. But then after that, then we are stigmatized, because we’re taking too long. So thank you for what you’re doing. Because I think in the absence of being able to process grief, I think that would lead into a condition that I experienced, which would be depression and untreated can ultimately potentially take somebody’s life.
Victoria Volk 06:13
So, tell us about that journey for you, when it started for you?
David Woods Bartley 06:19
In terms of the way I begin most talks is to talk about a day in my life that was like no other. And that was August 31 2011. And for most people this rather average Hump Day was indeed just ordinary and run of the mill. But for me, it was like no day I’d ever experienced because that was the day I was going to kill myself. And that was the day that the monster known as clinical depression, after passionately trying for close to 40 years on that day, convinced me beyond any doubt that I was worthless, useless, pitiful, grotesque, stupid, ugly, that I become an embarrassment and a burden to my family. And most damning was the fact that on that particular day, the monster convinced me not just as a passing thought, not just as maybe, but truly, albeit a logical I believed it to be true that everybody in my then life, my former wife, Deanna, my family and my friends on that day, I believe that their lives would improve exponentially in the wake of my death in the absence of my pitiful and grotesque existence. So the time I was living about 30 minutes east of Sacramento and Northern California, about two hours west of San Francisco, and I lived on this two and a half acre parcel with Deanna and I remember that day here in Northern California at the end of August, there’s no chance of rain and there’s almost never a cloud in the sky. And I remember Victoria going out that morning. And it was like Michelangelo had come down and done his version of a blue sky. And after a while being outside lived in this beautiful area, I went back into the house, I sat down at the computer and typed out my suicide note. And then without telling anybody where I was headed, I made the short 20-minute drive from our home in this little town called Penryn, to what is known as the Forest Hill bridge. Now, everybody knows the San Francisco Golden Gate Bridge. But almost nobody knows the Forest Hill bridge, which is the fourth tallest bridge in the country at 730 feet. It is 500 feet further off the ground, and it’s more famous cousin. And it’s important to note that this was not my first trip to the bridge. And it is universally accurate to say that suicide is almost never spontaneous, it is incredibly rare when someone just spontaneously ends their life. Most of us who suffer are plagued with suicidal ideations as I was in my case for close to four decades. And so, in imagining, wondering, planning, what and how I would in my life, I had chosen that I would jump off the foresail Bridge. And so, I’d make trips to the bridge, not in a, some sort of more morbid way, but in the thrust of grieving, and I love what Johann Hari, who has probably the best TED Talk I’ve ever seen, which is everything we know about addiction is wrong. And in johans word that the opposite the opposite of addiction is in sobriety, it’s connection. So we think about what’s happening now in isolation, and he has a further quote that says, isn’t depression in all its forms, really a form of grief, grief for the life that you thought you would have grief for the life that you did have grief for the life that you want it? So, I imagine this in suicidal ideations is just what you do. And so when I arrived at the bridge on that day, I knew exactly where I was going to park. And I remember bringing my vehicle to arrest and I turned off the ignition and then I put my hands reflexively on the temperature The position on the steering wheel took these deep breaths, opened my eyes reached over grabbed the suicide note, place that right in the center of the bag. And then I took the keys out of the ignition place those on the note exit the vehicle turned back around just to make sure the door was unlocked and then face back again crossed over the road and and came to the closest part of the bridge, the bridge deck and it’s a half mile long. And if you if you google the for-sale bridge, Vittoria view from either side is spectacular. It’s stunning. But I didn’t want to look at the view. I didn’t want to make eye contact with any of the passing drivers. Instead, I focused on a light post that stood right at the midpoint and then made my way there. And then once their turn to the left, press my body up against the suicide barrier. So hit me right about mid chest. And again, not looking at the view. Instead, I focused on the water that was flowing in the North Fork of American River. And once again, close my eyes. And I began to imagine what’s the most efficient way like how am I going to make my way over this barrier. And I done the calculation, it was going to take me seven and a half seconds to fall. I thought, what’s that going to feel like? What am I going to think? And then I thought I just somehow either want to pass out or pass away before I make impact. I mean, there’s no way I was going to survive a 700 foot drop. But I didn’t want to feel the pain. And I was so fixated, so focused in that present moment that I can’t tell you how long I was there. I don’t know. But thankfully it was long enough for a passing driver to act on a sense of something we’ve all experienced that she looked upon the scene and thought something’s not right with this picture. She picked up the phone called 911. And a sheriff’s deputy approached me from the left hand side and initially established contact, which is logistical. And then created connection which is life saving because connection creates hope. And hope saves lots was taken off the bridge and to an emergency department into a psychiatric ward where I would spend the next 15 days and when people Victoria found out I was there and why. Like, does not calculate does not compute. They couldn’t get their head around because instead of seeing me as clinically depressed, instead of seeing me as somebody who thought he was worthless, people saw me as the happy and contented co director of a nationally recognized Animal Sanctuary called a chance or bliss. And you and I talked about this a little bit Gizmo would love this place. And the sanctuary was amazing home to as many as 100 animals at any one time. 25 horses, 23 dogs, nine pot bellied pigs, goats and sheep and ducks and geese and bunnies and birds and fish and turtles and everything like no I’m sure would have been so jealous. If he came back and looked at that he’s like, wow. And as I shared with you, for an animal to come, they had to fit into one of four categories. Very old, very sick, some sort of special needs, or the vast majority were at the end of life. And so, DNI my former bride and I did no adoptions. Instead, animals came and then they stay and until they made their transition, they went to the greatest pastor of all and and we became known as this forever home in different parts of the country, even different parts of the world. And on June 2, 2010. We were the cover story in the life section of USA Today. And so, I didn’t fit the image of somebody who was mentally ill. I didn’t fit the image of somebody who was clinically depressed, somebody who was suicidal, somebody who was at a high risk to end their life to kill themselves. But I think of everything that I talk about in the in the wonderful opportunities that I’m given is this is that sometimes what hurts the most cannot be seen. Sometimes great despair, overwhelming grief, soul, crippling soul killing agony lies just behind a forced smile, a distracting joke, or in this case, a seemingly perfect and ideal life. And not even my beloved, this amazing woman she had no idea the degree of hopelessness on that dark spot on a tall, tall bridge. Just 14 short months after the mountaintop experience of England, USA Today. There I was one short movement from killing myself, but incredibly amazingly divinely, my life was saved. And on that day. On the day I thought it would be my very last day alive. It wasn’t said the first day of a brand new life and the first steps in what has now been a nine year journey away from mental health illness, and into the experience of our birthright mental health. And so that’s, that’s how I am here today to be in your loving wonderful, incredible hands to do anything I can to support that work that you Do you hope that anything that I could say would eliminate even a little bit of suffering from a soul who may be suffering at this point?
Victoria Volk 15:09
What do you think set this off the clinical depression is it’s like, I think that’s actually one of the questions I had here. What are some of the causes of mental illness and in your personal experience? what led to that day?
David Woods Bartley 15:26
So, it’s interesting, as I, as I tell, the speech that I give, the most often is called sometimes what hurts the most can’t be seen. And sometimes what helps the most is easy to do. And in the beginning of the speech, I tell that’s the intro and then I talked about in the second day in the psych hospital, I had this amazing experience with a psychiatrist. Now, a lot of times when we think about shrink, there’s no like happy image that comes to mind. But this guy walked in and it wasn’t, didn’t have a lab coat didn’t have a stethoscope. And there was just something about the energy like the thought that this guy got off, and it gave off. And what was fascinating, and I talked about this, is that he didn’t just launch into clinical questions. He what he was using, he was leveraging curiosity to create understanding, and understanding creates connection. And little did I know it then there was this kind of essence, this mist of hope, which was, felt it because it just felt different. So anyway, at one point, he had to shift after he asked these questions about the animals and everything else, and he said, two questions. No one ever asked me because they’re counterintuitive. First question was David, is there any history of mental illness in your family? And I thought, Hmm. Well, you know what, I hadn’t thought about it a lot. But my understanding is my father’s father, my paternal grandfather ended his life by suicide when my dad was really young. And then my dad died when I was young. And why don’t have any specific memories. My three older brothers shared with me that our father was horrifically and devastatingly overwhelmed with clinical depression. He didn’t die by depression, he died by cancer. But at this point in my life, now I know that the depression can weaken every part of you to make you more susceptible. And so the doctor then said to me, says, Now David, realize what you’re dealing with is depression is a medical condition. Okay, well, no one had ever said that before. And he said, because it’s a medical condition like diabetes and heart disease and all these other things, you can inherit the gene, you can inherit the predisposition, but just because you inherit that any kind of predisposition, it doesn’t mean you’re going to suffer from it instead. Oftentimes, there has to be something else. And if you can imagine the, the dry kindling of the predisposition for mental illness, something needs to light it, some sort of match and said, oftentimes, the sad news is, it’s trauma and then Victoria, I will never forget. This man shifted in his chair, in this way that I can only describe it was like compassion in form. And I love the definition by Krista Triplett, in her great TED Talk, that compassion is curiosity without assumption, like, I didn’t feel like I was just another patient. And he said, he looked at me and he said, David, have you experienced any trauma? Has there been any trauma in your life? And no one had ever asked me the question, and I thought, I was like, my brain went blank. So this man picked up the non verbal clue. And he said, Well, you, you, David, you mentioned that you were young when your father died. I said, How old were you? I said, I was seven. And he said, David, that that’s traumatic to lose a little boy and losing his father at such a young age. That’s, that’s traumatic. And then he said, has there been anything else. And Victoria, there was something else, something I had never shared. I was 48 years old at the time, but hopefully, you and others have had the experience where someone has just set the table where it’s so safe, that you are compelled to unburden your soul. And so I shifted uncomfortably, and I took a breath and I said, Doctor, when I was 11, I was sodomized and violated and tortured and raped by a Boy Scout leader. And when the words went out of my mouth, it was one of those instances in which I so desperately wanted to grab them and pull them back. I just I felt shame and guilt and all of this. And then there was this silence in which it was uncomfortable, and I didn’t know Did you not hear me or I didn’t know. But again, I know now that the sweet soul was processing and he he looked at me and he said, David, you didn’t choose your genetics. You didn’t choose your trauma. You didn’t choose to You didn’t choose suicide wasn’t your choice. And then he reached forward Victoria. He took me by the hand, and he said four words, which changed my life. He looked at me and he said, It’s not your fault. Now, he may as well been speaking Mandarin because the monster had convinced me it was my fault. I was, this was my just desserts. I had done something that was so horrific that I indeed needed to pay this price. And again, this sweet soul picked up on those nonverbal clues just held my hands just a little bit tighter and said, David, it is not your fault. And this time, I could hear him a little bit and I was allowed to stand up and longer answer your question, my call as is unfortunately, incredibly common, that there can be some form of genetic predisposition. But that in and of itself is not enough. The trauma really is the thing that not only ignites it, but left unresolved. Grief is traumatic, left on process left unshared left, examine. It’s like a smoldering Ember that ultimately will become combustible. And there’s Johann Hari is that Johan, like, He’s my friend. He wrote this great book after the TED Talk called Lost connections in which he’s a brilliant writer and a storyteller in which he says that there’s more and more data about big data person. But there’s more and more evidence that’s pointing to the impact of trauma on the the genesis of mental illness, and less and less on the genetic aspect, the genetic aspect, I think, is a contributing factor. But in the absence of trauma, I don’t know. And I’ve never heard, which doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, have an instance of mental illness that people just become mentally ill because there was this gene, I mean, it could, maybe, but in all the stories that I read about, and when people blessed me with sharing their stories, there’s always trauma. And it could be the loss of a parent, it could be the loss of a pet. I mean, you I’m preaching to the choir, in the sense grief is grief. Grief is individualized grief is, is personal grief is everybody’s grief is different. Until we dishonor people by saying that, you need to grieve this way. And people don’t realize what the impact of conditions are be aggrieved for COVID-19 or whatever it is just the vast uncertainty that we’re experiencing globally, right now. That all can Usher people into a more exacerbated experience of mental illness. Maybe they had a lesser degree before this pandemic. And now that’s being exacerbated or their song who have situational, mental illness and most likely depression or anxiety, and it’s coming up for the first time. So I think those are the baseline causes. And if you had to, if you had to distill it down to one word, that the cause of mental illness is trauma.
Victoria Volk 23:08
I would agree. It’s so uncanny how similar our stories are. Because my dad died when I was eight, have cancer.
David Woods Bartley 23:19
I’m so sorry.
Victoria Volk 23:20
And thank you, and thank you for sharing your story, too. And I was also molested as a child. So, it is a trauma, right? I absolutely 100% agree with you.
David Woods Bartley 23:36
And you know, the other part about that is what I try to tell people now, and I would imagine you do the same, just having this initial wonderful experience with you with grief. Trauma doesn’t have to be what you and I endured, that trauma, trauma can be something that for one person, it’s not traumatic, but for another person it is. And so I think we cannot if we do an incredible disservice and exacerbate somebody’s trauma, by trying to put it into a box that we’ve experienced, or a box that is defined that way. And the same thing with grief, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. If somebody who’s been married to somebody else for 50 years, and this soul dies and people will I think with all good intensity Well, you had them for 50 years and they’re in a better place you want to say, I don’t want to hear that. And then but and then when people give that thought, like in the same thing with the person who can’t get out of bed from depression as well, you should get out of bed but you have it better than the people who are starving in Africa and then we shame those people. We’ve eliminated the possibility they’re going to talk about it. So then their thoughts become contaminated because they have no air. We have exacerbated them circumstance and we may be why are we then surprised that far too many souls are walking down the path towards ending that life because the suffering gets To the point, they lose, I defined depression as the absence of possibility, reason and hope. There’s no possibility things are going to get better. We have lost the reason to live. And hope is nowhere on the horizon. People don’t die in my opinion, Victoria have mental illness. They don’t desire desire, they don’t die from the medical condition, they die from hopelessness. without help, forget it, you can live without love. You may not have the capacity to develop great faith. But if you don’t have hope, you’re done. You are done. And that’s why I think both in any of the paradigm where people are suffering that the path out not easy, but the way out is through the mechanisms, then there are many of creating connection because connection creates hope, with hope. All things are possible. Everything. Everything is doable with hope.
Victoria Volk 25:56
You can’t see me right now, but I’ve been nodding my head like this whole time. Yeah, you know, I just I mean, I’ve been taking notes here, it’s just so much good things. You know, and that’s the whole premise of two of my podcast is to show people and give people hope. And through story, and through other people’s stories that because I love an underdog and I love an underdog who has made it through some really difficult times, turn their life around, and how did you do it? Show me how you what you did? and show me the light. We have to go first and that’s how it like you said that’s the I mean, that’s how you build connection to is in community and grieving as a community grieving, holding space for people. Giving compassion showing compassion, love everything you said about compassion, by the way,
David Woods Bartley 26:54
And that’s Christie Triplett, I mean, he has a great TED talk and this is that quote of like, Oh my god, compassion is curiosity without assumption it’s like what I call my phrase on it is blank slate listening. And then here’s another thing about listening real quick before I forget the greatest quote of all time about listening is from the great Dr. Rachel Naomi remen who wrote kitchen table wisdom. Please read it on my unbelievable book collection of essays so the great doctor says our listening creates a sanctuary for the homeless parts and other people.
Victoria Volk 27:29
Oh, that’s so good.
David Woods Bartley 27:31
So, a soul is grieving I think that’s why peer support in any malady because peer support gives hope hope defined as hearing other people’s experiences like oh, okay I you know, we you know, dear sister that we can become so consumed the monster is so great at convincing of us with the whole slate of lies that we feel we are the only one who is this abnormal this tarnish this horrific and then you sit amongst a group of other souls who are going through grief and loss and mental illness and anything else. Just hearing other people’s experiences gives us hope and then you get late You know, Charles Schultz, the creator of peanuts said that happiness is a warm puppy. Okay, if that’s true hope as a whole group of eight-week-old Labrador Retrievers hope this wants to be with you hope has no demands at all. Just wants to hang out with once a sit on your lap and go to sleep. Just like you know, like when Gizmo you told me that have an easiest mate to sit in your lap. Okay, so havanese probably the root word for having ease is hope.
Victoria Volk 28:44
You know, it’s funny you bring that up, because actually, the reason why we got a dog when, you know, I mentioned that we had before that we had tried the, you know, when my kids were younger, we tried the whole rescue dog thing, but that didn’t work out too. Well. What prompted me to get a dog again, when my kids were a little bit older, was the fact that my youngest was going to kindergarten. And I That same year, I was closing a business and I had a lot of change and that’s when a lot of grief started coming up for me. I had been a work at home kind of stay-at-home mom and I had been so wrapped up in that identity of being a mom and having a business having built a business and and choosing to say goodbye to that. Although it was very difficult. I knew that it was the right thing to do. But I had a lot of grief coming up at that time. And I thought what’s the what’s the cure? I need hope I need a dog. And yeah, I I pretty much came to my husband crying like I need a dog. I needed something and in grief recovery. I know now that my dog was my sturb we call them stuff short term energy relieving behaviors. Yeah, if if we don’t have hope, and we don’t have feel like there’s something good to look forward to, we look for things to make us feel better for a short period of time. And so, like you said, I, what you are leading to is like, even if you don’t think that’s how addiction happens, right? When we solely when we don’t have someone to talk to when we don’t, when we can’t feel like we can express what is lying dormant within us those that emotional grief energy, we either implode or we explode. And it either comes out as manifests as disease and, and health problems which I was experiencing at that same time. Or, and I was drinking, I actually ended up in the last year I just I next month will be a year that I quit drinking completely. Congrats. Thank you. But I say that though, just because it comes ties back to what you’ve been saying. And that we look for things to make us feel better for a short period of time when we aren’t willing to when we don’t, either we’re not ready. Or we’re unwilling to face the difficult stuff. And so what do you have to say to that, when it comes to clinical depression?
David Woods Bartley 31:18
I mean, I think so, what I talked about is that what I was what I’ve experienced, but then by these great coaches and mentors and therapists, and psychiatrists, and peer support, and all these other that the monster is not satisfied with just owning our mind. The monster wants to control our physiology, our psychology and our spirituality. In other words, the monster wants to devour the whole of who we are body, mind, spirit. And so my by my own belief, and I live on the more severe spectrum because I, I still have horrific days, I still have thoughts of killing myself from time to time, but I have this amazing set of tools and a mechanism. So I have put my self care on pedestal, there’s nothing more important, and it’s whole person care. It’s not just one thing, I don’t think that there’s a again, everybody’s different. But for me, there’s no single thing I can do to be well, I have to do all of it, I have to attend to the whole of who I am. And so for me, it’s about sleep. hygiene fact, I just I realized I had thanks to my beloved summer who’s my sweetheart, she said, I think you have sleep apnea. And so I have one of those c pap machines, and all of a sudden my God, I’m sleeping better. So it’s sleep, it’s dying to try to eat as clean as I can. Occasionally Colonel Sanders says, Come visit me because I miss you. And I must heed the call. And then I’m really good about exercise time outside, I have a bad ass psychiatrist, my he’s become like a father to this man is incredible, an incredible therapist, and they’re distinct. Although I do therapy also with my psychiatrist, which is a little unusual. I take two minutes. But the important thing about medication, I think there’s two hurdles that we need to get we ultimately get people over the first is okay, meds can help you. But the other thing to realize that in the best case, the best case scenario, what your medication is going to do is to quiet your symptoms met, you’re not going to cure you. It’s the difference between an antibiotic and an Advil, you break your leg, assume there’s no infection, you control the pain and the symptoms, you quiet them so you can go do physical therapy and everything else. The same thing is true with anti psychotic or an antidepressant or anti anxiety that they quiet the symptoms to allow the true curative healing effects and diet and sleep and exercise and therapy and counseling and psychiatry. And then, for me my own spiritual practice and then a sense of defined purpose, the sanctuary no longer exists. But I give curious entation center around the world in which I take this aspect of mental illness and I wrap it in animal stories. And they’re not stories just because I want to tell people feel good story, their feel good stories, but they all have a very specific teaching point. And my experience has been Victoria that for people like us who are dealing with something difficult. An animal story gives us a safe distance to relate to the topic at hand without it being right in our face. And for the people who want to understand somebody on scene like me, they can look at the story. I’m like, that makes sense. Just a beautiful way you explain addiction that we think it’s like why would you do that, but to realize in my belief that the people, people who have mental health disorders are actually far more tied into how they feel. They can relate more to how they feel than the normal person and so in the acute experience of those in the absence of compulsive behavior, without condoning it, you have to have some way to bleed out that intensity. Again, I’m not advocating for addiction, but there’s a reason behind curiosity City is the greatest and the most direct path to understanding when we understand one another, doesn’t mean we have to agree. But at least like Okay, wow, now, I get it. It makes sense. And then, if you want I know you probably you made me promise I tell the Joshua story. This is actually a perfect spot for the Joshua store. So we get a call one day at the sanctuary. And here’s the story. So old man, very old man, probably in his 80s comes into the animal shelter not far from our sanctuary with a very old dog. He was a basset hound cross. Carmel Crowther, Carmel colored swayback. Like an old pony had no teeth on the right hand side. So his tongue hung out. Okay, it’s an old dog, kind of a hot mess. So the man comes in to talk to the staff and said, Hey, I was walking and I found this dog as a stray. And I thought the right thing to do the right thing to do would be to bring him in and put him maybe he can find a home? I don’t know. So the staff was like, wow, that’s not like the behavior you would assume of a senior person. Thank you so much. Just to help us out. If you could please just give us some information about you and where you found the dog. We’ll take him in the back. Who knows? Maybe he’s microchip. So the man agrees to do that. Staff goes in the back comes back and says, Oh my god, we’re in luck. He’s microchipped. And then the staff member compare the information that was recorded on the microchip to the information that the man had filled out. And it matched. Now, in that moment, I would have opened up a can of whoop ass on that man, the likes of which he had never experienced I say, What if someone just dumped you out? At the end of your life like you have outgrown your usefulness, but this staff member Victoria, like the most amazing demonstration of compassion I’d ever heard about. She shifted the question from, what’s wrong with you to what happened to you, sir? What’s going on? What’s happening? How can I help you and in that moment, beautiful man just burst into tears, like, could not control he saw, like his whole body. And he finally was able to get himself back together. And he said, this is Joshua. I’ve had Joshua, since he was eight weeks old, there is nothing more important. This is my best friend. I’m dying. And I’m going into a medical facility and I can’t take my dog. And I thought if I said he was a stray, instead of the fact that I had to surrender, and it would give him more time to find. Mr. Rogers famously said that, quite frankly, there’s no one you can’t learn to love. Once you know their story, I would have done the same thing. And here’s the beautiful thing about understanding this is like that, you know, this is the bonus in the fertile ground, the level ground with an understanding that has the soil of compaction solutions and ideas. They just like Poom, it’s instant manifestation and that staff member who had asked that brilliant question, she said, there’s a sanctuary, down the hill, maybe they have room and they call this DNI went, I will never forget this wonderful man handing me the most important thing in his life, and asking me to take care of his beloved Paul. And all because somebody asked a question, Joshua was able to come to the sanctuary, and be treated with dignity and respect and was able in time to make his transition and this beautiful soul went on to in this life. And I think that that’s why curiosity is the most direct path to understanding, I think, curiosity is the most direct path to overcoming our fears about addiction, and mental illness and grief. Because in my opinion, the opposite of fear isn’t called the opposite of fears, understanding, the more we understand, the less we fear. So when we see these daunting behaviors, these societal conditions that are now just being exacerbated to an exponential level because of COVID, and isolation and distancing and everything else, I think it’s important for us to leverage curiosity to come to a place like we can understand wonder, if I think about the questions that the first responder asked me on the bridge, and the first question after he established logistics was David, what does it feel like to be depressed? Like, in that moment, like everything went calm, counterintuitive question. That would be like, what is your grief feel like? We would think that that would put us into a more acute, but it’s actually that’s what keeps you on the safe side of the rail of the barrier. And so, you know, when we I think in this time, in particular, if, if we ask people and we leverage questions of what and how, not why, and when You know, when someone asks you a why it almost automatically makes us defensive and when adds in the stress of time, but wondering how are very benign, they’re actually beautifully neutral. And we ask, you know, what’s it like? And if nothing else, we see somebody who’s suffering and struggling, and maybe they’re not able to vocalize and articulate the difficulty. And maybe the question is, then, what would help you feel like you were Understood? Because I think when we feel like people understand us, man is that that’s hopeful. Like, okay, I don’t, I don’t feel like some alien on some planet.
Victoria Volk 40:39
You can’t see my notes. But I actually wrote, doctor, and then what happened to you? Because that is one thing that doctors will never ask like, if you go to your general practitioner, I’ve done a few of these interviews now, regarding like, with mental illness, or just in conversation, obviously about grief, and you go to the doctor, general practitioner, or whatever, they never asked what happened to you, I had about of postpartum and what I know now, it was postpartum at the time, I had some really dark thoughts, and go to my general go to my practitioner, nurse practitioner, share with her what I was feeling, well put you on an antidepressant. And it wasn’t because of, well, I had a baby. And then I had another baby. And then I had another baby. It was this dormant grief that had been sitting there and was rising up with all the hormones and all the changes and just everything. And I didn’t know what to do with those feelings, or things that you’re saying. It’s just, yep, touching all everything. Like every every note that I have. And I’m asked, I’m wondering to how then do you identify someone who may be clinically depressed? Or who is exhibiting the jolly go lucky person? on the exterior? How do you figure out that out? Like how, what, what, even because even some of the people closest to like, the people closest to you had no clue, right? Is that correct?
David Woods Bartley 42:18
Oh, you my beloved. And you know, I say for my former bride is amazing soul, and we’re still really good friends. I was able to hide behind the velocity of our life. Okay, you can imagine, let me just tell you 25 horses produce a lot of manure, it’s like, and we literally picked up every piece every day, because we wanted this environment to be pristine. And just so I can hide behind that. And I think there are a lot of good actors out there. There are a lot of people like me that they call, they found a one of two categories. They’re either smiling depressives, or high functioning, depressing. So you just have no clue, like, keep showing up and getting stuff done. And so, if you look at the symptoms, there, basically it’s changes in cognition, you can have people who all of a sudden are giving things away. They may become very irritable, it’s just in so what I say to people, when I do a PowerPoint, there’s always an animal picture on it, is to one first, just be okay. Don’t make yourself wrong, don’t be engulfed in shame. If If you don’t see these, because for people like me, these can be incredibly subtle. Like, really the only way I think beyond something that’s just really obvious, is it’s to follow that intuition that we all have, say. Some seems off, and then you think, oh, whatever, you know, right now the Oh, it’s just the stress of COVID, which could be true. But I think we just we need to pay attention. You know, that I love the quote that says, attention is the purest form of generosity. Like, let’s just be a little bit more mindful of one another. And look for these because these signs are really subtle. And then when when we do like, okay, we have the wherewithal to step forward and leverage curiosity. We need to ask a direct, heartfelt question. And it could be something like, I may be totally wrong, but I’m just feeling like, I feel like you’re suffering I feel like it just I just don’t feel like I just feel like something’s wrong. Would you please tell me how are you feeling? And I think if we can pose the question that is there is a difference between Are you feeling okay? That’s a yes or no. versus how are you feeling? It’s not Can I do something for you? It’s what can I do? Do you feel like I understand you are what can I do to help you feel understood? If people want to talk to you, they may be reticent. They may feel embarrassment and shame because there’s still a stigma around this. I think it’s less than little by little thanks to great people like you. But I think ultimately, people want to talk about it. And so we need to ask hard question. There’s a suicide prevention technique that was created by an amazing psychologist Dr. Paul quintet, and it’s called QPR, which is question persuade, and refer. It’s kind of like CPR for mental health. Well, Dr. cornet has this quote, in which he said, it’s the unasked questions that lead to tragedy. So why I thought this, but it is counterintuitive, like why would that officer asked me David, what does it feel like to be depressed? You would think, okay, that’s really going to toss this person over. But again, that’s what kept me safe. You know, what’s it like on your worst day? You know, when when you hear voices, what are the voices say? Would you please help me understand, I want to understand so I can, I can serve you, I can help you. And then quiet. In the end, you have that quote from Dr. Lemon said, in this gift of listening, it literally creates a sanctuary for people like I had a home to live on that day, but on that dark spot, and tall, tall bridge, I was homeless, you know, and the fact that this man, listen to me, just listen. Just listen, that was it. He asked the question, then he listened, like, wow, it’s not really complicated. And I think what happens is, I there are available resources to process grief and mental illness and everything and they’re not perfect, but they exist. But if people don’t feel connected, the door stays shut. That’s why I gave a talk recently, and I wanted to be a little I wanted to grab people’s attention in the talk was mental illness, a complex problem with a simple solution. solution is connection. That’s it. Like if we become more connected in all these different ways, become great at remembering people’s names. Leverage curiosity, to create extension, become the master of the handwritten note. People need to hear how you feel about me. If you’ve just become great with those things. You experience the mutuality of connection it’s mutually beneficial and you will change people in ways that you cannot imagine and then if I can I’m gonna tell you real quick another real quick story all that said you can I totally get how frustrating it can be if we do all these things. We’re really looking forward to we’re looking to step up and help people and there’s no visible we don’t feel like what we do makes a difference. It’s like and you want to give up like I’m doing everything I can I’m doing all these steps and so we had this bird at the sanctuary named kiya she was pretty good sized parrot. She had been abused by man so she comes and we had this big great room and then kiya there was this armoire and kiya had this beautiful platform she had this great new look at all the animals and everything these are brilliant when it created all the methods in which we took care of these animals I was really good at picking up manure I like I can do it so I was the feeder primarily and so the first day I go up and I approach KSK Victoria as soon as I did she like shakes violently turns around and goes to the rear of k i think you know what, but then I’ve been the rescue for a while we run this have good energy I’m it’s going to be okay. Go out the next day, same thing and so I changed the paper and I open the cage and I put in the water and nuts enter treats and she’s just you know what it’s gonna be okay. So this goes on day after day after day after week after month, same thing, no change. Like I’m doing all these things to make a difference and nothing’s changing. And at one point I said, Honey, I can’t do this. This is I think I’m making a worse you know, like you do and she said how they just I know she she needs to know that men are okay, I know it’s gonna change. So keep going on. It’s not gonna change, like nothing happens. And then one day I go up and I’m like robotic factorial. Approach the cage and she’s doing her thing and I changed the paper open it up and I put the water in I put the nuts in as I put the treats in. kiya turns around and comes to the front of the cage climbs up and pops her head out and puts her head down. And when a parent does that, one they’re completely vulnerable because they can’t strike you with their town or bite you and what they want you to do is to scratch their head. And remember that oh my god. And so the question is Was trust created in that moment? Or was it those small acts consistently done, encouraged by this beautiful woman. And it was, of course, the ladder. And then every time I came to the cage, that head was down. And so, you know, the bad news is in in, I think a lot of instances, we don’t get to see the impact of our kind acts. But as somebody who’s on the receiving end, including a bark in the background, they’re on the receiving end of an innumerable number of those, each and every one of those, even if I don’t respond, they all made a life saving difference. And so I would just say, keep doing, keep making those deposits of kindness and compassion and love and understanding into the bank of a soul who’s depleted. And it will, in fact, It can turn a life around.
Victoria Volk 50:56
That’s a beautiful illustration,
David Woods Bartley 50:59
Out of black and tan coonhound. It’s being very disrespectful on our podcast right now.
Victoria Volk 51:11
Just saying hello, just saying hello. Okay, so I suppose the principle still applies. And those rules, not rules. But that idea still applies when you have kids that are not necessarily very vocal and open and it’s, they’re kind of like, tough nuts to crack, you know?
David Woods Bartley 51:32
Exactly. So, here’s an interesting it’s an incredible segue. I don’t know if I shared this, so I’ve never had children at DNI neither of us waited. And then with summer who’s my beloved now, she has three babies, Ethan is 15 Bella is 12 and Gracie is nine. And so like, Okay, this is a whole learning experience for me. And it is because I you know, I’m trying I’m trying to learn leverage on the experience under the mentorship with my former bride You know, they’re sentient beings that’s the commonality an animal on a child different but they’re sentient beings. And so for me to to recognize the subtle differences and then leverage curiosity in a way that that works for them maybe not be so direct on a question related to depression or anxiety but something different and it’s great I’m still learning it it’s it’s still a skill and sometimes I mess it up Horace, why did I say that? And the times when at a point of relating maybe something totally different for Grayson is playing like she’s super active. And she’ll say, David, okay, and we make up games and everything else. I remember these games Victoria them when I was nine years old, growing up. So we just make up all these games. And we’re making nothing else. That’s a point of connection for Shana. And maybe there’s she may, then we’ve been in each other’s lives now for almost two and a half years. And there’s been these moments where she is sharing when she’s felt anxious when she’s been depression. And I know, she knows, I’ve never the two girls. Ethan has has seen me speak a couple times to girls have not, but they have an idea. And I Grace has gone so far as to say that in regards to when she’s feeling depressed at times that she says, I know David understands. So okay, you know, and she’s at a quick handwritten note story. So someone I don’t live together, yet, we’re actually gonna move in together in January to be great for all the parents out there, please help me because I don’t know what I’m doing. I have nowhere to run, I can escape now. And so I’m sorry. I’m afraid. So there was this day, and I was in a bad space when I was in depression was within my budget. So summer had said, Honey, could you go by the store and pick up a few things for me, and I said, Sure. And then I didn’t have time to take it to her house, which is not far away. And I said, they’ll just have to leave it in the car, and you can come back. So I’m upstairs, take Sharon and come out to my car. And there is not one but two notes. On my front seat. One is from summer, just expressing her love and support. And the second one is from grace. And I don’t have a right here and we’re on a radio anyway. So it’s on a piece of line notebook paper. And it’s written in purple pen. And it says Hi, David, this is grace. Thank you so much for being the best stepdad in the world. I love you so very much. And thank you for taking such good care of mommy. Now I took pictures of both of those Victoria and I send them to summer and I said thanks. And she said thank you so much, because grace wouldn’t let me know what she wrote. So Gracie had no idea that I was having a bad day and yet, my child intuitively knew that in that moment When I needed this reminder that I was okay, and that I was loved and that what I was doing in service to her mom and loving her mother, she noticed that she picked up that whole thing. And I have that note laminated. You can offer me a million dollars for that, I’d say no, I could use a million. But no, it’s not another note I got from a young woman who’s like a daughter. At the end of the know, she said, depression can’t have you, because your hours. So it’s, I think we might be surprised at how impactful small things are. You know, and I think what I tell people is, you know, we, each of us, because if we don’t have initials past our names, if we don’t have a PhD, we may think we’re incapable and unqualified to make difference. But I think actually, it’s just the opposite, that we are all universally capable and qualified, because we not only can we create connection, we know what it feels like, we know what it’s like when someone remembers our name. And we had no expectation that they would just remember who I am. When someone creates a safe place for us to tell our story. When we go to the mailbox, and there is, let’s say, unsolicited mail, and then all of a sudden, there’s that uniquely sized envelope. And there’s that handwriting like, okay, it’s gonna be one of three things, it’s gonna be an invitation, it’s gonna be cash, or it’s going to be somebody taking the time to let us know, they love us. Because if they think we’re a butthead, they’re going to send us a text. So it’s just these things. I mean, I’m so passionate to say, oh, we’re in such a difficult position, it is incredibly daunting and complex problem. Grief is can be overwhelming. But if we come together in that pure tribal sense, and offer each other’s support, not advice, journey with one another, not one in front, and one behind just side by side, man, let’s just walk this thing together. I think I know that’s the way we can win. I really, really do.
Victoria Volk 57:04
And grief recovery, we call it being a heart with ears.
David Woods Bartley 57:08
Oh, I love that. Right?
Victoria Volk 57:12
Yeah, we need more of those.
David Woods Bartley 57:14
We do. And they’re out there. I just think, you know, it’s just, it’s a matter and who knows, maybe the silver lining and all the suffering and difficulty of COVID is a reset to a certain degree. I mean, it’s not a reset I wanted. And in terms of the work that you and I do, maybe what this has done is is focused what really what the what really the most daunting problems that our society has are all in relation to mental health. That’s it, everything, you know, there is no mental health. Without mental health, there is no foundation. It’s like you’re, you’re gonna drown and imagine when we feel Well, interestingly, when I feel good, I treat other people really well. I mean, they do it’s just, you know, we stand in that beautiful place of understanding and do all these things. It’s, you know, and courageous souls like you to bring attention to a really difficult subject. You know, like, that’s why I’m here to talk about grief. Oh, sorry. I had I didn’t realize I had another appointment.
Victoria Volk 58:25
Someone asked me not long ago, she said, do you love grief?
David Woods Bartley 58:31
Wow.
Victoria Volk 58:32
And I’m like, it caught me off guard actually. And I was like, yeah, grief is kind of my jam. But not in a way like, oh, yeah, you know, it’s it’s like, like you say, like you’ve used you wrote on your, on your forum here. Grief has become my friend. And it’s been my lifelong friend, like yours. So, it’s just so add just the similarities. I feel like you’re a kindred spirit.
David Woods Bartley 59:01
Oh, no, I’m a bit of a, like an obsessive freak about serendipity. No, you know, I don’t believe in randomness or I just think, you know, you and I, the way we think there’s no accident, this does and the fact that we are together now, all of it, to me is divine. In the most universal sense. I’m not trying to point to a certain belief system, but I just think it’s not capricious, it’s just it’s like, this is what it’s supposed to be. So now I have a kindred spirit, you know, a sister that understands and focuses on another aspect that I still deal with, you know, I, I don’t know I don’t know if I shared with you that. So I was released from the psych hospital on September 15 2011. By the end of that year, I lost every conference and so long story which I’m talking about now, but just everything went away. I remember very clearly handing the keys to my vehicle on the Repo Man drove away. We lost our support because people thought if the co founder was going to kill himself, what must be happening to the animals, which the animals were being cared for, and loved in ways that most people wanted to be. But people freaked out, they were afraid. So the animals were taken away. With Auster house to foreclosure it was sold at auction and the marriage crumbled under the weight. And so I mean, it was literally like a fire had come and spontaneously erupted and wiped my life out. And with a borrowed car, and one of my beloved Boston terriers, harmony, came to live where I live now with my two brothers and sister in law and I look back now like you say, I went from one sanctuary to another because it has been in this sanctuary that I’ve been able to heal but and it’s interesting. Another part of that is to underscore how connection saved my life on multiple occasions. When I was in the hospital, I met a guy named Don was another middle-aged man who was going to kill himself. And when Don got out of the hospital, he found this men’s depression Support Group, a group of middle aged men who met every Tuesday for two hours and for six years, every Tuesday at see my therapist from four to five, take a break and then go be in group for two hours. From that amazing place. I met my therapist, I met my psychiatrist, I got on the right medication, I was given the first chance to speak eight years ago, all because of a guy that I met in a psych hospital. And then you fast forward to the end of that year had I not had the group and everything else. I didn’t know the nightmare that was coming, the trauma and the grief that would overwhelm me had I not met Don made that connection, there is no way in the world that I would have been alive by the end of the year. That wasn’t an accident, that of all the people that could have come to the mental health, mental health, that psych ward, that man and I met on that day and everything that happened out of you and I coming together and there’s no accident. I think that life is yearning is screaming for us to connect in these ways to open up our eyes so we can work together to heal what’s going on and healing. Isn’t it possible, I’m not saying it’s easy, a lot of work. You know, I spent as much time in self care that the average person spends in a part time job, you know, between working out therapy, where it just it’s a lot of work it is but I’ve had glimpses and experiences of mental health I’ve never thought possible. That it was interesting. So until like five years ago, August 31 of the year was every year was the worst day of the year on the January baby I hate summer. It just I don’t like the heat not in California, it’s a dry heat facility. So five years ago, I go to the mailbox. And there is one of those uniquely sized envelopes. And open it up on the outside of the card. It says advice from a glacier, go slow, carve your own path but whatever like I want to like cost the same but out of curiosity open up in these big like Crayola crayon orange print. It says happy today. And it’s from my incredible friend Greg. And it was this support and this love and this encouragement and as a result of that card Victoria, August 31 of every year went from the worst day to my New Year’s that and every year including just recently on August 31. I go back to the bridge and apart my vehicle in the same spot and a walk to the midpoint in a celebration in a New Year’s Day. And this last year was the most extraordinary because my beloved whose name is mentioned just happens to be summer which I think is hilarious. She said honey, I want to go with you. And here we are. I’m walking with the woman then I’ll spend the rest of my life with the juxtaposition between the epitome of isolation to the apex of connection as we walk to that same point all thanks to a card that showed up on that day at that time. Just like that’s it. That’s we hold it in our hand we can do this. It’s and then when we do we open up access to all of these resources to the whole world with souls who stand on the front line the people who embrace becoming a mental health service worker to become a psychiatrist and a psychologist who who deal with the rigors in the upset of what they call courtesy stigma that that they share some of the stigma that we do by association and yet they’re like that’s okay man. I don’t care about that. You’re This is my peeps and I’m gonna help these people like all of those relationships open up when we have that moment of connection and we can create it everywhere, anyplace, anytime, with anyone. No matter what.
Victoria Volk 1:04:55
Wasn’t that an amazing part one episode with David seriously combat for part two, it’s just as good. We get into how you can’t drag someone from hell illness to wellness, how difficult that is for people standing on the sidelines watching someone who you know they love and care about who is depressed and may have suicidal ideation and how to help them. He gives more practical tips and advice around that. He talks about his own thoughts around the myths, I call them the myths of suicide prevention. We get into forgiveness, self loathing, loathing to self love, which is very apparent with people who are clinically depressed. Just he shares a lot more personal story and great analogies of life that we see in nature with animals, and he just makes everything just so relatable. So come back next week for that episode. And till then, take care. Much love my friend.
Death/Dying, Educational, Grief, Grief Tips, Pespective, Resources |
Photo by Lukas Rychvalsky from Pexels
What to Expect When Grieving Someone
If you have lost someone you love, you know what a difficult process navigating grief can be. You may feel as though you are in a dark place and that things will never get better. This is not the case at all; in fact, it’s more than possible that things will become easier, and there is certainly a light at the end of the tunnel. If you want to know what’s normal in the grieving process, read on to learn more.
Trying Not to Face the Pain
If you are grieving for someone, then you may try and avoid experiencing the pain that comes with your loss. You may try and ignore it or feel the need to move on as fast as possible. This is normal, but you have to understand that if you try and keep it from surfacing, this will only create more suffering in the long run. If you want to heal truly, you need to face your grief, and you need to actively deal with it as much as you can. As a society, it’s ingrained in us, since the time we were babies, to not cry. We are shushed from the day we are born if you think about it! So, whether we are in physical or emotional pain, the truth of the matter is: we need our tears. Tears are a natural bodily function of release.
On the flip side, many people think that if you do not cry, you are not sorry about the loss that you have experienced. Crying is a normal way for you to respond to sadness, but it is not the only way. It would be best not to avoid crying, but not feeling like you need to cry is also very normal. Just because you are not shedding tears like everyone else doesn’t mean that you are not taking the loss as hard. For some, the tears may not come for several weeks, months, or even years. Grief is funny like that; it’s often cumulative losses that build up in the soul that eventually cause a flood of emotion. And, if the grief isn’t expressed with tears, I would guarantee the grief is manifesting in many other ways.
In the early days after a loss, when you’re busy looking up information about cemetery grave markers, choosing a casket, and making all of the necessary arrangements, it’s normal to be in reactionary mode, not really being able to process the loss that occurred. Often, it’s after the funeral, when the guests have all left, and life settles back to normal for everyone else, where reality sets in – as does the pain.
Replacing the Loss
We are taught how to acquire things (or people), not what to do when we lose them. When we lose someone, something, or a pet, in time, we often find ourselves attempting to replace the loss. We so badly want to fill the void that the loss caused. Rather than addressing the pain associated with the loss instead, we have this belief that by having someone, something, or another pet to direct our love and attention to that we’ll feel better. And, we might – for a time. However, if we accepted that no one or thing we love so dearly could ever be replaced, we would be forced to deal with the pain, wouldn’t we? Because once we know this to be true, we can’t un-know it. It’s normal and natural with loss, but it certainly is far from helpful for our recovery.
Isolation
I’m hard-wired for isolation; it’s truly a tendency to retreat when I’m feeling anxious, depressed, irritable, or overwhelmed by life. What I know about myself is that I do need time to be alone and reflect. I need to sit and stew in my emotions while I process them. I’m not a candidate for “talk therapy” for this reason, as many reading this can probably relate to. I’m also empathic, easily taking on other people’s energy and emotions, which makes it doubly hard when dealing with my own “stuff.” Also, when I attempted to speak up in the past, and the conversation became about the other person, it only reinforced the tendency to isolate myself in my grief.
Healthy isolation isn’t a problem if the intention is, as I mentioned, for time to reflect and process. However, if you find yourself isolating and drinking, and isolating and cutting, or isolating and watching porn/online shopping/Netflix-binging incessantly, then you may have an isolation issue. If you find yourself saying “No” to outings and invitations from friends or loved ones on a continual ongoing basis, you’re probably isolating yourself. And, if you aren’t talking to anyone about anything you’re experiencing, you’re probably working extra hard at isolating yourself.
Isolation adds to the gunk you’re already feeling. Because not allowing your pain to be seen or heard only makes you feel more alone. We do not heal on an island of one; we heal in community.
Attempting to Stay Strong
You may also feel the need to be strong for others if you have experienced loss. Feeling scared, frightened, or even lonely can be a normal reaction if you have lost someone. You have to remember that crying doesn’t mean that you are weak. You don’t need to protect your family and friends by trying to put on a brave front. In fact, showing the way that you truly feel can help both them and you. Often, it takes someone to go first in sharing for others to feel as though it’s also safe and okay for them to share, too. Therefore, allowing your vulnerability to show will likely have an impact on those around you. Sure, there may be those who would prefer it if you would keep your mouth shut. However, as I mentioned, that is only causing more harm in the long run. Permit yourself to feel how you feel and express what you need to express. Grief shared is grief diminished. And, especially when a loss leaves children behind, I speak from experience when I say that having open and honest communication about death, dying, and grief can change how children process their grief well into adulthood. Avoiding those conversations with children while they’re young is a great disservice to their emotional health later in life. By shushing a child from expressing their grief and sadness only causes more harm. And, no one has to die for a child to experience grief. Whatever struggle a child is having, if they don’t feel like they have a safe space to talk, they will isolate just as many adults do. Isolating adults were once isolating children.
Keeping Busy
“Just take up a hobby,” someone may say to a griever (thinking this is helpful advice). Or, “I’m keeping myself busy by working overtime,” a griever may say.
Keeping busy doesn’t change what happened. Keeping busy doesn’t erase the feelings stuck within you either. And, keeping busy only helps pass the time, which only passes, too, by the way.
Keeping busy does nothing for healing and moving forward. You may think you’re doing great while you pour yourself into your work or jump headfirst from one hobby to the next. But all you’re really doing is preoccupying your mind from getting too quiet so you can hear your heart. It’s painful there, in your heart, feeling all the feels. I know this to be true like every other griever out there.
Getting quiet is the fastest way to getting beyond the stuck feelings, though. It’s the path of most resistance but reaps the greatest rewards when confronted in a guided, supported, self-serving and loving way.
You’re already busy going, going, going…you may as well be going in a positive direction, taking action for positive change rather than doing all the things in an attempt to avoid. Be like the buffalo that heads directly into the eye of the storm; they don’t run from or skirt around. No, they go straight through. That’s what it takes to get beyond the pain, too.
Feeling like the Grief Won’t End
It’s very normal for you to feel as though the grief you are experiencing is never-ending. You may also feel as though you should be “over it” by now. It doesn’t matter if you feel like you have been grieving for well over a year or ten years. There’s no set time frame on how long you should be grieving, so make sure that you understand that this is normal and put yourself first.
Time passes; it doesn’t heal our wounds. It’s the action we take within time that helps us to process, work through, and emerge on the other empowered and feeling alive. We often feel like we don’t have choices in grief. I’ve read various shares on social media about how grief makes you feel isn’t a choice. That is correct. We don’t choose to feel how grief leaves us feeling. However, we do then have to choose if we want to remain in those feelings.
We have a choice if we continue to ruminate the story of what happened, replaying all of the details over and over in our minds.
We have a choice to be taken back to those excruciating, put-you-in-the-fetal-position feelings, or if we share from a place of love and compassion without the emotional dis-ease taking us back in time over and over and over again.
We do have choices in grief, and whether we’re taking action to move forward or ruminating – either is a choice we make each day that passes after a loss of any kind.
What is your takeaway from this post today?
Can you relate to any of these normal and natural responses to grief?
