Ep 38 | Shandra Schultz

Shandra Schultz | Who Am I?

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

What would it be like to get into an accident and walk away not knowing who you are?

Shandra shares her experience of what it is like to see her daughter and loved ones and not know them. She found herself living a “half-life” as she called it.

However, this accident and memory loss occurred following many other loss experiences. She shares that, while in high school, she found herself down the path of experimenting with drugs and alcohol. When she was 21, her father passed away from cancer. Fortunately, she found a way to eliminate the crutches and addiction to drugs and alcohol in her life.

With every loss she experienced after that time of friends and pets, she ultimately realized she had lost a part of herself, too. This set her on the path of self-discovery and introspection. During this time, she sought out many modalities to help heal her memory loss, grief, and trauma. She shares what those modalities were.

It is through her life experience, she has found herself working as a healer today.

Shandra shares that grief taught her to live and that the meaning of life is to live it. Listen to Shandra’s story of hope and how she found her way back home to herself.

Connect with Shandra:

  • Website
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  • Facebook
  • Shandra is offering a special promo for my listeners: Use the promo code “LIGHTANDLOVE” to receive 50% off your first Soul Birth Session


Victoria Volk 
00:08
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of grieving voices. Although if this is your first time listening, welcome. I have my guest today is Shandra Schultz from healings of Light and Love by Shandra. Welcome Shandra. Thank you so much for being here.

Shandra Shultz  01:14
Thank you, Victoria. It’s my pleasure to be here with you.

Victoria Volk  01:19
And today, we kind of connected just a little bit before we came on. And it seems like I people that are kind of drawn to be on my podcast, there’s always something I can connect with on a personal level. And, like right out of the gate, we just started talking about how both of our dads were actually Vietnam vets, and were exposed to Agent Orange. And both of our dads both passed away cancer, different cancers. But I’m sorry for your loss, and that we have that thing in common. But there’s more to your story than just the loss of your father. And so let’s start there. What initially, what brought you to wanting to come to the podcast was you had a traumatic brain injury in 2014. Correct?

Shandra Shultz  02:13
Yes. Yep.

Victoria Volk  02:14
Tell us about that.

Shandra Shultz  02:16
So, I was driving and a car decided to make a left turn in front of me without seeing me because there was another car blocking it and ended up in a traumatic car accident. I was knocked unconscious. And when I came to, I was very disoriented. I didn’t quite know what was going on. And when I looked at myself in the mirror, I was like, hmm, I don’t really recognize this person who am I. And it wasn’t until the person that I hit was right by my run by my car, I had like a call I had called will actually step back, I first looked at my phone at something in me said, hey, I think I need to call somebody just a knowing that I needed to call somebody. So, I picked up my phone and I scroll through it and nothing was familiar, except the word mom. It stuck out to me. And I said, Okay, I guess I’ll call mom. So, I called mom. And I was very, very, like, the tone of my voice was very monotone. I was like, hey, I’ve been in a car accident. Can you come get me? I wasn’t in any way. Warm or had no, no actual like emotion to my to my voice. It was just very flat. And I remember my mom’s asking me if I was okay. And I said I think so. But I don’t know. And when they when the ambulance showed up. They looked at me and they told me I was fine. So I was like, oh, okay, I’m fine. I don’t know who I am. But I’m fine. Okay, so I was standing on the side of the road waiting for my mom to show up. And she came and I looked at myself in the mirror. And that was the only way it was really kind of able to recognize her as that she looked like me. We both had short brown hair. We were had similar facial features. She just looked like me as like, oh, okay, this must be mom. And she came up to me and said, you know, asked about how I was and from behind her ran this little nine year old child, my daughter and just grabbed me and screamed mommy, and I just kind of shook because in that moment, I was like, what? Like, who am I and I have a child like and I can’t remember this. Like, who am I to not be able to remember this child like why don’t I remember this child? And it wasn’t until I went home with them and started realizing like really letting it sink in. I didn’t know them. I didn’t remember them. I had pictures of them all around the house they took me to but I didn’t know who They were like, I couldn’t remember them. And it was like, Is this really? Is this really happening to me like what’s going on? But I couldn’t tell anybody. Because they were, they were just happy I was alive. And I didn’t feel like I didn’t want to rain on their parade that I didn’t know who they were. I pretended for probably about a couple of months. I never let them know what was going on. It wasn’t till after I met my husband, three weeks after the accident that I felt comfortable enough with somebody to tell them. I don’t know who these people are.

Victoria Volk  05:37
Well, what was that conversation like, when you finally told them?

Shandra Shultz  05:45
So, I actually didn’t tell my daughter until probably two years ago. So, the accident was in 2014, I told them in 2019, so that it was already five years because I didn’t, I didn’t know how to tell my daughter that I didn’t know them. It was challenging in the process, because I remember telling my mom, when I did tell my mom, hey, I’m dealing with this, she didn’t believe me. At first. It was after I’d met my husband, it was at his prompting that he was like, you need to let them know what’s going on. Like you can’t keep this secret from them. And I remember having to tell my mom and her just kind of looking at me like you’re lying. And I remember I was going to see a chiropractor at the time post accident. And when I told him that I couldn’t remember, he attributed it to the drug abuse that I had been sober for two years at that point, but he attributed that I’ve relapsed, and that I was just trying to get out of being with my family. So my mom got led to believe the same thing. And I left and I was like, this is not what’s happening. I don’t even know what you’re talking about. I didn’t remember drug abuse. I didn’t remember any of that was like, Okay, I think what you want, but this is my truth. And it was very, it was it was challenging, because to constantly have my mom, say, don’t you remember? Don’t you remember? Like, No, I told you, I don’t remember like, are you thinking you’re gonna catch me in a lie? Like, no, I don’t remember. Um, and it was so challenging, especially with my daughter, because trying to like, keep up this front of, I know who you are. And yet, I don’t remember these things that you’re talking about. And so, between my mom and my daughter, they would constantly ask me, you know, do you remember this? Do you remember that? You remember this? Remember that? And so for almost two years, that’s how life was constantly trying to say, don’t you remember? It was like, no, and it’s not that I don’t want to remember. I just can’t. The brain works in mysterious ways.

Victoria Volk  08:06
You hadn’t told them that you didn’t remember? But yet, all these conversations they had with you, they didn’t connect it to that accident?

Shandra Shultz  08:15
No. And my daughter was nine at the time. So, I, I understand that. Like, it’s like, well, why doesn’t mommy remember, like this? And this and this. And my mom, like, when I finally told her, Hey, I don’t remember. She didn’t believe me. She thought it was me line. Because I was in this relationship. Now with the healthiest relationship I’ve ever been in my life, mind you, with my husband. He was like actually a really decent guy who was treating me well taking care of my mom and my daughter while I wasn’t able to. And yet, because of that. I also was lost in him. I kind of lost myself as a lot of couples do in the beginning. I lost myself in him and I felt safe. And so, I was like, I’ll just stick to him. This This feels comfortable, that feels uncomfortable. So, I gravitated away from my mom and my daughter. And they both told me that it actually was like they had truly experienced the loss of me, even though I was there.

Victoria Volk  09:18
That make sense. You mentioned the drug abuse, did was that before the car accident, or?

Shandra Shultz  09:25
Yeah, I had, um, from the time I was 17 until the time I was 29. So, for 12 years, I was I was very heavily addicted. i It started when I found when I was in high school, and I had some abuse happened to me. And then it just then my dad got sick, and it was like the easiest way to resist and numb out. So that’s what I did for 12 years. I was a very functioning addict, mind you, because I learned that in order to make sure people didn’t know what was going on. had to hide that part of myself. So I became very good at compartmentalizing things. But I didn’t find that out again until I fully remembered everything started in 2000, late 2015 into 2019 is when I really spent focused a lot of time trying to learn who I was. And what had happened. Why had it happened. I was just trying to understand the past, but it wasn’t living in the present.

Victoria Volk  10:29
So, I can relate to that like many people probably can. So how old were you and your dad passed?

Shandra Shultz  10:36
I was 21, 10 years before my accident my dad passed. And I was the last one to see him alive. The night that he worked, the Nike passed, I actually, he was in hospice. And I had been partying and I got this like, voice inside my head, that’s really small voice that said, you need to go see your dad now. He had been on. He had been in hospice for seven days. And he was they had kept him comfortable, I guess is the best way to describe it. He had said, you know, he had a DNR he did not want to be resuscitated, he didn’t want any of that he didn’t want any life saving measures whatsoever. So he was literally on saline. And that was it for seven days. And I remember now looking back on it, when that I had this voice say you need to go see him and just let him know that you love him and get it out. And so at three o’clock in the morning, I drove from the party I was at to the hospice, which was like 10 minutes away. And I went in to see him and I sat down. And I literally just lost it all, like I just I said everything that I’d ever needed to say in 21 years to him. Knowing that he was not going to hear me specifically like he, his spirit would be there. But he wouldn’t actually be able to respond to me. And I remember letting myself feel okay about that. Because it was like, I’m finally going to get the last word. Like, my dad was one of those people, you could never get the last word with him. And I had so much as I’m sure you know, growing up with a parent who is a cool, while I mean, you were younger, but even still in that that those first eight years, I’m sure you might have experienced the PTSD. And that is really tough for a child to live with to see their parent going through something and they don’t understand why. And it’s just it is it’s, it’s, it’s challenging. And so my dad and I did not have a great relationship. And we argued and fought a lot. And he loved me fiercely, but he was also very critical of me. And so that night, I just sat there and I told him how I felt. And I let it all out and I cried and I screamed at him and told him I hated him for leaving me. And then I told him that I loved him, and that it was okay and that he could go. And I left and I went to a party and I got a call two hours later, my mom said that he had passed. And I was like, oh, he was waiting for me.

Victoria Volk  13:39
I imagine that was very healing for you.

Shandra Shultz  13:43
It was um, and yet it was kind of surface level. Like I didn’t really allow myself to feel it because I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to have to deal with it. It was like I just wanted to keep going and move on and be like, Okay, it’s gone. It’s over with my, my mom had grieved, but not visibly in any way that I knew how to see like, like a healthy adult grieving. So, she kept it she’s she always kept everything in. And it was like, I’m going to put it away in this file cabinet. And I’m done. So that’s what I learned to do. I was like, Okay, I felt it. Now it’s gone. I’m just ignore it. It’s never going to come up again. I’ve learned that’s not true. It will come up. You can’t just file something away and expect it to be done and come back.

Victoria Volk  14:37
Eventually

Shandra Shultz  14:38
Eventually, yeah. And sometimes usually in the worst possible time in moments. So, if you’re like, Oh, well, darn. That’s there.

Victoria Volk  14:49
And quite often after we’ve experienced another loss, and everything floods everything else comes back up to the surface.

Shandra Shultz  14:58
Yes. And that is what kept me as using that is what kept me abusing drugs and alcohol because my dad died when I was 21. And then, after I had my daughter at 22, I found myself in a really abusive relationship. And I had a really close friend who was like my reason for like getting out of that relationship. He died right after my birthday when I was 23. In a very traumatic way. And then again, I didn’t deal with it at all, like I just tamped it down started using, I’m not gonna, I’m not going to do it. And then when I was 25, my other best friend, both like brothers died in another traumatic way, it all rushed back to me. And I said, Nope, not dealing with it, tamped it down again. And it just kept going like that, when I would have traumatic things, the loss of animals, the loss of people in my life, then when I lost myself, that was when I finally had to start actually looking at it and start feeling it and dealing with it. And it’s funny. Because this Pat, like two weeks ago, I had had been originally scheduled to be with you. And I ended up losing my cat the day before he ended up dying of kidney failure. And it was one of those things where it was like, it smacked me in the face so hard. Because I was no longer, I’ve been sober for nine years now. And I wasn’t going to misuse or abuse anything. So, I was like, Okay, I’ve got to feel this. And every single solitary grief that I had, for 38 years hit me in the face. And it was like, Whoa, that’s a lot of grief. So, hey, thank you, I appreciate that. It was it, I kind of look at it as like an empowering lesson, because it allowed me to finally feel it all. Apologies. It allowed me to finally feel it all. Something that I’ve been hiding from for years. So, every traumatic event, every grief that I ever felt, it was like, I had to feel it finally, and I had to do it in a productive manner. I couldn’t let myself you know, hide it anymore. And it’s so funny, because it was at that moment that I realized how much healing I’ve actually done. Because I looked at my husband and I said, you know, I know that. In society, they teach us they show us on TV, they write it in books, that if you have a traumatic experience, and you’re in a relationship, go have sex. But that’s a bandaid. And not to discredit the feeling better, or the being intimate and actually like connecting with someone say, Oh, I’m happy, I’m alive. However, it’s that we don’t allow ourselves to fully feel that grief. And we shove it, we shove it away, we mask it, we do something with it. And in this moment, I looked at him and said, we can’t do that we have to feel this pain was like a child to us, we have to feel this pain.

Victoria Volk  18:11
Well, and what do we do when we’re doing that? We it’s this fear of connecting with ourselves. I think so many of us when we’re deep in grief, we almost detach ourselves from our hearts and our emotional selves, or it’s, we can’t even we aren’t even comfortable in our own skin in our own bodies. And like you you just alluded to, like, every, almost every conversation I have with people on this podcast, it’s like all of my guests get it, you really get it, you really get that these things that you’ve learned growing up have not been helpful on how we are taught to process and treat grief that we have in our lives and loss experiences. Because we’re not we’re taught how to acquire things, but we’re not taught what to do when we lose them.

Shandra Shultz  19:06
Yeah, definitely. That’s so true.

Victoria Volk  19:08
Yeah, that’s why I’m so passionate about Grief Recovery and in the work that I do, and that’s why I started this podcast for the educational piece that you bring home for people that you’re not a pile of mess on your floor and when you are that’s okay. But then you’re honest about it. Like Be honest with yourself about that. And what you need and congratulations on staying sober nine years. That’s incredible. So what did it look like for you these past two weeks? What have you been doing?

Shandra Shultz  19:46
Well, the first thing that I’ve noticed is that there is a part of me that doesn’t want to let me have feel it like there’s still this part of me that’s like no, I don’t want to go there. It’s unsafe. Don’t feel that like don’t know and I’ve So I found myself like having this like internal battle with I’ve come to know, as my adolescent, because it’s my, it’s the adolescent or the ego self. That is like, no, no, I’m just gonna, we’re gonna skim over that we’re just gonna go and do whatever, let’s, let’s scroll on our Facebook, let’s do this and, and I’ve had to, like, really just hold space for that part of myself and say it’s okay to have these, this, this fear of feeling. But it’s, it’s feeling that’s going to allow you to not have to have fear anymore. Because once you allow yourself to feel the feelings, it’s gone. Yeah, it might come up again, when it gets triggered. And the more you work on it, the less it it hurts. That is true. And I truly believe they say time heals all wounds. Yeah, as long as you’re actually willing to acknowledge that that wound is there, and you’re willing to shine some light on it. Because if you don’t, then it’s just going to kind of sit in the shadows. And eventually, it’s like a tea kettle, it will tell you, it’s there.

Victoria Volk  20:58
I’m gonna piggyback that, because that’s actually one of the myths of grief is Time heals all wounds. Time does nothing but pass. So, but you alluded to, it’s the action you take within time. Yes, is what heals action at time itself. But the action, so yes, thank you for bringing that up.

Shandra Shultz  21:19
Yes, of course. Yeah. And that’s, and that’s so true. Because, you know, they say just like, I think about my mom, and she’s been single now for 17 years. And to this day, I love my mother immensely, she is one of my biggest heroes. But to this day, she still says that she’s married to my dad, she’s she’ll say, I’m married to a dead man. And like, that’s because you haven’t allowed yourself to actually feel the grief of what it is that lost, you got stuck back then. And there’s no judgment for me on that. It’s just the truth. It’s what she did. And I’m like, how, you know, living a half life. To me, the way that I’ve seen is like, she’s happy, but there’s still a sadness there. Because she’s never fully allowed herself to feel the sadness of that loss. And I’m sure that there’s much loss compared to more than just that. That’s just the most recent. And then of course, there’s what I went through, you know, in how she felt like, she lost me. So it’s, it’s interesting, because, yeah, time hasn’t healed that wound for her, because she’s not done anything with it. She’s just kind of, okay, it’s there. I’m gonna go, I’m gonna leave it there. And that little filing cabinet locked up.

Victoria Volk  22:44
And I ask how the communication has been between your mom and us. And during all these years of, you know, but you kind of were struggling yourself. But yet, you know, the, the ripple effect of that impacted her life, of course. So how was the the communication then around that?

Shandra Shultz  23:05
Yeah, so interestingly enough, there, there really was not ever a lot of communication around the loss of my dad. I didn’t even actually know much besides the fact that he had cancer, and he was dying. That’s all I knew. They never told me it was like, protect her, keep her safe. She doesn’t need to know this. But that in and of itself actually led me to rebel. Because it’s like, at 18 years old when you find out your parents sick, and they don’t want to tell you anything. And they say, oh, no, no, we’re gonna be fine. And then you’re seeing especially as someone who’s so empathic, like myself, I’m literally watching my dad and seeing him waist away. I’m like, No, he’s not fine. But why won’t you tell me. So, there was a lot of a lot of disconnect there. And we and when he did pass, we just kind of left it. Like, occasionally we would talk about him on a holiday, or something came up. But for the most part, we never really brought him up until last few years. last few years, I’ve talked a lot more about him. I’ve talked a lot more about my own grief. I’ve allowed my mom to know how I was feeling around things. And that has been probably one of the most healing things I feel that we’ve gone through because when I went through my accident, and she didn’t have the daughter that she’d grown up, no, you know, grown to know and all of these things. It really caused a rift in our relationship. And it took me to speak to the ripple effect. It took me actually going and doing the work on myself. And the more I showed up differently than she started showing up differently. And so now she’s a lot more open and the communication between us is amazing. And we don’t talk as much we used to talk every day like ours. However, when we Do talk, it’s meaningful. And we do spend time and though I do know that it’s challenging for her, because even to the point of like, when I told her I was changing my name, it was like, Oh, so you’re not that you you once were. And it took her probably about a year and a half to actually start not screwing up. Like she would call me by the name. She called me by for years. And then I’m like, Mom, this is my name. And then I let her I let it go for a while. And she would screw up and I’m like, Mom, this is my name. And finally, it was like, okay, and I and I told her, I said, Look, I’m legally changing it like, but it has, I’m honoring the me that I once was by using my first name that I was born with as my middle name. So it’s still part I’m still here. It’s just I’m different. I’m healthier, actually. Like, I look at the mean, before the accident, I’m like, Man, I was really unhealthy. And I was on, I was actually probably on the road to relapse. So, the accident really saved my life.

Victoria Volk  26:12
You know, in the last, I think it’s only been the last two weeks add has been years as the second story of name change that I’ve heard. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that was on another podcast, I had a guest by the name of Victoria Shaw, on my podcast. And on her podcast, she had a gal that does numerology readings. And she had changed her name. And had spoken about that and talked about the significance of, of our name of our birth, birth given name, and the self identity that we kind of have either a good way or a negative way. Yeah, imagine with life experience things. You know, we can change how we feel about our name. I happen to I actually changed my name to I didn’t change it, but I go by a different name. I was always Vicki growing up. Everyone always called me Vicki. Except when I upset my mother would be Victoria. When you know, the first middle. Yep, stay the whole name when you’re in there mad? Yeah, I go by Victoria now. And it just feels it feels more fitting for me. So I resonate with that idea of, you know, it’s almost like a coat we put on. So, can you share a little bit more about that?

Shandra Shultz  27:41
Yeah. So, it’s actually funny that you mentioned that like, how growing up you changed it from Vicki to Victoria, because growing up, I was Nikki. And then in high school, I was like, Nope, it’s Nicole. And then after that, I actually went by another name when I was partying. So like, I had two names. And then I went back to being a coal before the accident, and after the accident, I actually shortened it to an a nickname for Nicole Coley. Because it was like Nicole didn’t feel right. It just didn’t roll off my tongue and feel like who I was. So I was like, Okay, I’ll go to Cali. It’s really interesting. But then it just sort of shifted into Shaundra. And that’s when I took on Chandra Nicole. And it was interesting, because for me, it was a very, it was a very smooth transition it always throughout it, because now that I do remember why I would go by different names throughout time. It was just a very smooth transition. Like, even as a child, I never felt comfortable with Nicole, or Nikki, or any of that I hopped around spellings, all of that. So it just never sat with me. It was like, okay, and it’s funny, because my mom actually told me like, they were thinking about a completely different name before I actually showed up. Like, they planned out all these other names. And Nicole was not even one of the names. It was supposed to be Katrina. I’m like, well, I could have resonated with Katrina more than I could, Nicole, but okay. And it was but it was interesting, because when I when I my husband picked up really easily on calling me Shaundra um, and it was it was even, you know, even my friends, a lot of them have really just been, there’s some that still try to call me by the name that I was and I’m like, No, that’s not my name. Like I would appreciate it if you call it me this and it’s also funny because like, I get a lot of people calling me Shandra and I’m like, No, it’s not Shandra ich Andhra. But I knew like Nicole would have been a lot easier, right? Yes, exactly. It really was it was like um, and it’s interesting though, because at the beginning when when there were certain people in my life that I was not opposed to them calling me my former name or by misc. Missed that saying the name I use now. And then as time moved on, and I was really feeling more and more in my identity of Shaundra, it was like, No, I’m not going to accept anybody not saying that, right. So like, I’m going to, I’m going to correct you in a kind way, but I’m going to correct you and no, this is the name. And I also have reversed it. And I will always ask anyone that I’m speaking to, what would you like to be called? Because I can understand, like, not being called what you want to be called. It’s it to that effect. Actually, I recently just saw a post I made about two years ago about transgender individuals and their, their dead name versus the name they choose their choose. And I was like, why is it that we have such a problem calling people the name that they asked to be called? Like, why? Why do we have such a, and it is it’s about identity as we get to know someone as they are. And we just expect them to continue being that person. So whether they change their name, they, they just they realize that they are in the wrong body and are finally fully expressing themselves in the in the way that they want to be seen. Whatever it is. We struggle as a culture as a society with accepting the people knowing that they know who they are over who we think they are.

Victoria Volk  31:15
Yeah, a lot of projection.

Shandra Shultz  31:17
Oh, yes. And it’s so interesting, because I myself, I am a Celtic, pagan. And I look back on my ancestors, my Nordic ancestors and the Vikings and a lot of the the older tribes type. They didn’t choose names for their kids, they actually waited a couple of years to let their kids personality start to show up and then found a name for them. So, they would just call them cute nicknames. And then the kids got to choose themselves.

Victoria Volk  31:47
I think you also did.

Shandra Shultz  31:49
Yeah, I did. I did. Yep. That’s exactly what I did.

Victoria Volk  31:54
It’s almost as if, like, it’s this. You lived you. You experienced the life into your name.

Shandra Shultz  32:03
Yeah. And it came to me in a meditation. So it felt right. I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Victoria Volk  32:10
I love that intuition is, our intuition is Oh, is speaking to us.

Shandra Shultz  32:15
Yes, it is.

Victoria Volk  32:18
So, there’s another last, though, that you haven’t touched on yet that I know that you put in the information you sent to me? It is with your husband?

Shandra Shultz  32:32
Yeah. Yeah. So, he was in the military as well. And about four months into our relationship, he suffered a pretty big brain injury. He was playing for the military lacrosse team and took a 75 mile an hour bowl to the face. Now he had his helmet on, but it broke his helmet and still hit him and knocked him down. And it changed him. And he was no longer the man that I first met. And over the course of the last few years, it his personality has completely shifted as well. So he’s very much there’s there’s things that I’ve looked at him like, Oh, there he is. And then I look at and I’m like, but it doesn’t, it’s kind of like, it’s, it’s, it mirrors in a lot of ways my journey of how I came to be me, with him coming to be him, because we, we was probably five months difference between when I experienced my brain injury, and then he experienced his. So it was like, we were kind of on concurrent paths of healing. But we were healing in different ways. And it was, it was very challenging, because a lot of a lot of his trauma that he had not known about started to show up. And it really he he ended up going, I went from being his wife to being his caregiver. And I had to put wife on the back burner. Because he wasn’t the man that I mean, it didn’t feel good in any way to be in the role of wife with him when he himself was still very childlike. And thankfully, he’s recovered to a point that he’s not as childlike. There’s still times when he needs me to remind him because he can’t remember things he doesn’t know, you know, medication or me handling like doctors and things like that. But he has done a lot of healing, thankfully, to a point where we can actually start to be partners again. That was really I was I was afraid I was never going to get that. I was afraid that I had lost him forever. And that was just going to be one more grief that I’d have to experience and accept and continue to survive through.

Victoria Volk  35:01
But it’s still grief. Right? Because it’s not it. You know, in Grief Recovery Institute, we the definition of grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations and anything we wish that would have been different, better or more so. Yeah. I mean, I’m very happy to hear that he seems to be healing. You know, it’s coming along, at the same time. Don’t minimize that. There’s still that, you know, you don’t want to minimize that. There’s still that grief there that. Yeah. What could be your what? You know, we don’t want to start we don’t know, stay stuck there either, right?

Shandra Shultz  35:39
Yeah, I totally get that. And I actually did for a while because I’m in the process of him having this personality shift. One of the things that shifted was he realized that he was polyamorous, and that he desired. While having a stable and loving marriage with me, he desired having other partners, not just sexual, but like emotional partners. And when he came out to me with that, it was literally, it like rocked my world, because I’m sitting here going, we had planned our life a certain way. And not only had I lost a lot of that, because of his brain injury and how he changed. But now I’m like, Is this even what I want? Do I even want to be with someone who wants to be with more than just me? Like, like, all I literally, I’ve said, I said to him so many times. You can’t tell me that. One of the things he used we used to say when we first met is that while we may have had firsts, we were each other’s last. And then after the brain injury, and he started to shift, one of the things he was like he actually I remember him saying this to me sometime last year after he came out to me about being polyamorous is he said to me, as long as I’m coming home to you, at the end of the night, that’s all that matters. I may experience my last call somebody else. But if I come home to you, and you’re the person that I end up, you know, passing next to your still, that’s me, and I’m like, okay, but no, because we said we were going to be each other’s last. We said we were going to do XYZ, we said we were going to do all these things. How can we do that now? It felt like I was losing us. And in a lot of ways I had because of circumstance. And so this last, and then of course with COVID, and everything, it was kind of like it was kind of a little miracle, because it was like, Okay, now you can’t do that right now. So, we got to figure this stuff out between us, and then get to a good place. And thankfully, I’ve used COVID for that for sure. To really help us like heal and get on a good path to where I’m like, You know what, I don’t feel a lot of the grief that I felt what I realized is he was so much like my dad and I was kind of looking at him to like fill the role of what I missed growing up. And he filled it and then all of a sudden it was gone again. So retriggered all of that like traumatic. There one day gone the next. And so it really took me on this journey of having to dive really deep inside myself and find out. Okay, what’s showing up for me? Where’s this coming from? How can I? How can I heal this so that it’s not affecting me daily, day in and day out? And I can actually have the life that I desire living.

Victoria Volk  38:23
So how have you done that?

Shandra Shultz  38:26
Oh, so a lot of parts work a lot of inner child work. A lot of energy healing, too. As I’m sure you’re familiar with being a Reiki Master it energies, me everything and realizing that there was so much stuck, like I had so much and actually in 2020 is when I fully remembered all of my life. Like it was it was just like in an instant click. And it was like, Okay, it’s like and I know that it wasn’t an instant. I know it was it was all the the six years of healing that I had gone through all the energy work all the inner child work, everything. But it was just like in a moment. It’s just like one day it just poof, it made sense. And I was like, Oh, okay. I’m here now. And I remember now that I remember I can actually like, it felt like coming home to myself. It’s really like the best way to describe it. And it was like, Oh, now I understand. Now I have context. It’s so funny because it felt for the first. The first six years it felt very much like being a child. Because I couldn’t remember I like I would have things come up and I was like, I don’t have any context about this, what the heck. And then I’d have to go in and do some healing around it. And then I’d find the context. I was like, oh, okay, and that was like, kind of like updating old computer programs. It’s like, hey, now I understand why that’s happening. Let’s let’s update this. This is really what’s going on in the year 2020 Or the year 2021. So, it’s been a lot of that.

Victoria Volk  40:04
It’s like you have this loose thread in a blanket, and you just keep pulling and pulling and pulling and pulling until everything, you know, and, or likewise, it’s like you keep creating over and over just evolving yourself and recreating yourself. And yes, its path to self discovery is really what it is. And I say it all the time. But grief is cumulative. And it’s cumulatively negative but but healing. Healing is cumulatively positive.

Shandra Shultz  40:39
Oh, yes

Victoria Volk  40:40
Every step you take everything, you’re doing all the modalities, you stack them up, you bring them together. And yeah, like very much like you like it’s this. I’ve had stuff come up that I didn’t even know through doing Reiki work. It’s in a phenomenal addition to my life. I it found me I had no idea what the heck it was. Even had a session and I went and got certified Reiki what level wanted to and then I went from my master, and then I added on Corona. And it’s been, yeah, it’s been a phenomenal addition to my life, as I see in yours as well.

Shandra Shultz  41:28
And to that part, it’s so funny because what I realized in my mom, when I went and got Reiki certified, I did the full, one two and master teacher in a six-month, timespan, probably less than that because you need the 21 days, I literally only let myself do the 21 days in between. And then I went and got the next one. And one of the things is my mom actually said to me, she’s like, well, you realize as a child, you used to do this, you’d go and you put your hands on people and tell him you’re sending them love and light. And I was like I did. So I was a healer as a little kid. Except back then I didn’t understand that. It wasn’t my energy because I was always depleted. I was sick so much in my childhood. And I never understood because they would get these random weird things happening. It’s like, what is she? What? How is she getting so sick? Her body is completely fine. And all of a sudden, she shows up sick. So it’s taking on other people’s stuff. I didn’t realize it. So, when I became attuned, I was like, that was like, Oh, I can let it all go. It’s not mine. It’s source coming through me. Okay, that’s cool. So, it really it started me to allow me to start letting things go that weren’t even mine that I’ve been holding on to for decades.

Victoria Volk  42:37
Same, same, same, same. As a kid I needed so much sleep I cuz i There are so many pictures of me I don’t have a lot of pictures but like three fourths of the pictures I do have which fitness ziploc sandwich bag or me sleeping. And there’s actually one of my most favorite pictures of me and my dad, he was already sick or had been diagnosed already. Because he it’s he was staged for when they found it. But there’s a picture of me in my like Doctor garb I have a blue mid my Garfield long pajama gown and I got my blue cab and my got rubber gloves on. And I’m like, on my dad’s back, and I’m like, like playing Doctor trying to fix them. You know? So your your share there. Really, that sparked that memory in me. So thank you for that. But so in looking in what you do, like so I’m imagine like myself, everything you’ve experienced has been just like the stepping stone. It’s like the next natural progression to the work that you’re doing. Yeah, I would say the work that I do as well. So, tell me more about the work that you do.

Shandra Shultz  43:50
So recently, I’ve actually been trying to find a way to like, meld it all together. Because it feels like it’s like I spread it out too much and like and of course that’s the that’s my finger brain going you need to have specifics. Everybody’s got to know exactly what it is you’re doing. And then I think about like my intuitive self and like now you don’t you don’t they don’t need to they you can describe it as best you can and then let them experience it and then it goes from there. So I’ve recently started shifting what I what I was originally calling my coaching sessions are now I called Soul birth sessions. And so what I consider myself is to be like a spiritual midwife to help women transform their selves into the life that they truly desire, like the life that they really want rather than the life that they were told that they were supposed to have. Like I remember growing up, you’re going to grow up you’re going to go to school, you’re going to meet someone you’re going to get it and you know get a job meet someone get married, have kids and die. That’s it. It was like that doesn’t sound very fun. That’s like not a very fun existence. Like what? So, in uncovering what I truly wanted to do for myself and be of service to others and really find my truth and my authenticity, I was able to start seeing that I actually am really good at guiding others to do that, too. So that’s, that’s what I’ve been working on, I’ve been working on creating this soul based business where I actually guide others to do the same type of stuff that I’ve done for myself.

Victoria Volk  45:25
I love that. So, what is giving you the most joy other than the work that you’re doing now, what is giving you the most joy and hope for your future?

Shandra Shultz  45:38
So, for sure, I have to say my daughter, even though it’s been challenging, because they themselves came out to me as non binary, and as a lesbian in the last couple of years. So, shifting and like realizing that this is what my mom went through with me is like what I’m going through now with my daughter, and yet having such joy and such happiness around the fact that this, you know, teenage kid feels good to be able to be themselves. Like, that gives me so much joy that I loved them enough that they felt comfortable to truly be themselves. Like I, as much as my mom loved me, I didn’t feel comfortable being myself growing up, I had to hide who I was. And to know that I have this kiddo that I’ve actually done a really great job raising, and that they feel good about being themselves enough to the point that they chose me to be the one that came out to first. And they’ve always been just like, amazing. And so that really brings me a lot of joy to know that I’ve done a really good job as a parent. And then being able to be creative. My family is just part of that joy, of course, but then being able to be a creative individual. I’m very artistic. And I love to express that art in whatever ways show up for me. So that’s, I’ve been really focusing on a lot of that creative finding that creative joy again, so that I can actually live from that place. Because I for a very long time. I didn’t live there. In fact, I just kind of shut it down.

Victoria Volk  47:21
I love that that’s something which to get back to more of his just this creative play. Just following the curiosity, right, I talk about that with a lot of friends I have is just follow the curiosity wherever it leads you. And I love that you brought up about your child and how Yeah, I mean, to create that space for someone else to really be themselves. And obviously, your wonderful example of that of living your, your truth. And we really want to be in this world what you want to what you want to give to others. What were what is one tip that you would give someone who’s hurting today?

Shandra Shultz  48:13
One tip, I feel like the the biggest thing is, don’t judge yourself. Allow yourself to feel the grief, like in however it shows up. But also, don’t live in that like find a way to move through it like it’s okay to me personally, whenever I have a loss, specifically one word, someone who’s passed on, I tried to focus remembering all the good times that I had with them, because it’s those good times. They don’t want us to mourn them, they want us to remember them. Like that’s what I feel is like being able to bring the joy that they brought to you to continue to hold that and focus on that focus on the joy of having the of what it was such a joy to have them in your life. Like I think about my cat like, yeah, it was sudden, and I hated it happening. But then I think about all the joy that He gave me. And he wouldn’t want me to sit there and spend hours and hours and weeks and months and years ruminating on the loss of him. He want me to live life for him. And to that and that’s actually something that my husband and I promised each other when we got married is that instead of how so many people would say I’ll die for you. Live for Me. So we promised that we would live for each other. So if anything ever happened, we wouldn’t stop living we would continue on in their honor. And so that’s how I that’s that’s the advice I would give is honor that. Honor and honor the relationship you had with that person by remembering all the joy.

Victoria Volk  50:02
Can I follow that up with the relationship you had with your father then if he if it was kind of a challenging relationship? How did you do that, then?

Shandra Shultz  50:14
Oh, well, it took me a while I had to I it’s funny that I look back on it now and go, Oh, I was living the stages of grief over like many, many years, because I was angry for a really long time. And then, after the anger, I started realizing, like, how am I living my life to honor him? Like he wouldn’t? What was it that he wanted me to do in life to achieve in life. And so I started living it from that point of view. And then once I started doing the work of the spiritual work, and really working with meditation and things like that, I went in, and I actually called on his spirit, and I, and I had conversations with him, and how proud he was of me, and how, you know, just how I’m living life from this joyous place. And that’s all he ever wanted. That was able to allow me to see that everything that happened in our human existence, when we when we pass and we go into the spirit world, that it’s gone, it that we leave that like we leave it at the door just is like, Okay, I’m gonna check that here. I don’t need it anymore. I’m in spirit form, everything is good. You know, so it’s like, I was able to go in in the neck and talk to him and really have those connections and, and find out how much he truly loved me and really feel it in my, in my everyday life of like, seeing little signs from him that, you know, I look and I see Oh, my mom. And I used to say when, after my dad passed, we saw crows everywhere. So seeing a crow, I’m like, Oh, my dad’s thinking of me today, smelling his cologne, which I how I remember the scent of his cologne. 17 years later, I have no clue. I haven’t smelled it in 17 years. But if I’m in my room, and all of a sudden they smell it and like, Oh, my dad’s here. He’s watching over me. He’s making sure that I’m okay.

Victoria Volk  52:14
You make me think of I just got turned on to this Netflix Docu series called Surviving death. Have you heard of it? Haven’t? You are speaking the language of what that’s all about? Wow. It’s a six part Docu series, I think you’d be interested in watching that. But there’s yeah, there’s one that’s actually called Signs. But I almost wonder sometimes this is just my own inner thought pondering that if we had like a very conflicted life, in our human form. Is that somewhat still resonant in our soul form, or spirit form? And that’s one thing that you made me think of, too, is I heard you talking like, and I don’t know, this is, like I said, this is just me, my inner dialogue is that he’s I think that’s why sometimes spirits, because I do totally, absolutely believe in ghosts. And that sometimes they just have to make their presence known, or they just they cannot move on in that they got something unfinished, you know?

Shandra Shultz  53:33
I totally agree with you on that. Ever since I was a little kid, I was always very sensitive to the spirit to the spirit world. And there are definitely times when if it is a, like a highly traumatic situation that they passed in. Or even if it’s something where they feel a lot of grief, because they were leaving their family, and they didn’t want to or whatever, I find that it’s those highly emotional, whether it’s the, quote, good or bad emotion, but it’s the highly emotional times. That’s when sometimes the spirits will get stuck. And I feel like those that have been able to what’s the word I’m looking for? Like, they don’t have any unfinished business, like when they talk about it on movies and things like that, like, oh, he has unfinished business. Yeah, like sometimes we do. Like we, if we if we, like my best friend who felt you know, full 40 stories to his death, like he had a lot of unfinished business. Like, I’m pretty sure he was not ready to go. And so I’ve, you know, I’m sure that there’s times when people feel like, Oh, hey, like, I can actually feel His presence and it’s more of like, not not in a way of which I’ve like I’ve moved on, but more of like, I’m kind of still here. Like, I’m like, there’s something that’s unfinished for me. And I feel like as someone who I consider myself a medium, I know that if you can, sometimes those people those spirits just need to let happen. If someone has a beard goal is to be their voice and let them know. I’m okay. I loved you. I meant to tell you this, I never got to and then the moment you that’s done, then they can peacefully go on to their next existence. I truly believe that to be the case.

Victoria Volk  55:15
Yeah, I think this is a like, veered into a topic that we could probably talk for hours on probably. Yeah, it’s really deep. But I love deep conversation. Yeah. So what would you say overall, that your grief has taught you?

Shandra Shultz  55:35
To live

Victoria Volk  55:36
That’s good.

Shandra Shultz  55:39
Thank you, I truly feel as if I was given a second chance. And so many of us don’t get that chance, at least not in a, like we have an accident. And then well, we don’t get that chance anymore. So I’ve really taken this as, what do I want to do? How do I want to live my life now so that I don’t worry, you know, when I get to that point, and finally being old, because I know I’m going to live to a very right, right old age, I don’t want to get to that age and be like, Man, what did I do with my life? When I look back on on the me that I was before the accident, and I realized I had kind of come to that place, I was very, because I was so traumatized with all that I had gone through because of everything, I had just come to a place where I was like, You know what life isn’t good. I’m not really ever going to have what I want. It was just a very depressing, very down dark place. And I didn’t think it could ever change. And it did. And I’m grateful for that. Because what it did was it woke me up to realize that I was so stuck in all of the grief and the loss and that I didn’t focus on what I actually have right in front of me, which was this amazing life that I could literally choose to do anything with. So long as I allowed myself to, to do so. And part of that in order to do that is I had to heal all those all that was keeping me stuck in that in the darkness. And now that I’m like, Oh, I see that. I choose to say I want to live a different life, I want to be happy, I want to, to experience everything that I’ve set out to experience and it doesn’t know it, you know, I just I want to live. And then fine. It’s kind of funny, because that actually goes to the point that I used to make to a lot of people I said the meaning of life is to live it. Like everyone wonders what the meaning of life is. It’s to live it to experience it to to enjoy it. That’s the meaning of life. That’s what I’m choosing to do.

Victoria Volk  57:45
Amen. Can I asked one more question? And I don’t know that we completely answered it. And I want to share anything good that you have to share around the topic. And it goes back to your addiction. And what was the was there a defining moment? Or what was the one thing like? I guess 12 years is a long time. So what was the one thing or was there one thing that got you out of that?

Shandra Shultz  58:21
So, it’s funny because during those 12 years, I did try to get sober numerous occasions, and I even stayed sober for you know, six months to a year sometimes. But then I’d always have something come back and smack me in the face. And what it was at the very end, I remember this it was I had gone to a I’ve been sober for a year almost. And then I met some friends and my mom ended up I was I was away on a cruise that I had been wanting to go on my entire life. I was a huge Backstreet Boys, man, I will not deny it. I’m I will own it. And I got to go on the cruise. The last day of the cruise, my mom slipped and fell and broke her knee. And I my daughter had been with her and when my mom when my mom called me and said to me, are you sitting down when I was in the airport and told me like the first thought was I thought something happened to my daughter. And she was like, No, she’s fine. And then it was like, okay, and she’s like, it’s actually me, and it triggered back everything. All of that great for my dad or being like my mom or like almost lost my mom all these things and I was like, I’m going to be alone. And so I lost the sobriety that I’d had up to that point. I started drinking and doing drugs again with some friends. And I went out on New Year’s Eve, and I woke up probably 12 to 13 hours into the new year. And I didn’t know where I was I didn’t know the persons that I was in. I didn’t know. I didn’t know anything. I later came to find out that they had actually went joy riding with my car, like all of these different things. And I was like, I sat up and I was like, What the hell are you doing with your life like you? We’re you’re sabotaging yourself, you’re like you’re creating more of this existence that you say you don’t want because you’re afraid of dealing with the truth. And the truth is you’re unhappy. It was like, Oh, okay. Well, if I’m unhappy, what do I knew need to do in order to get happy, and I got really quiet. And I heard myself say, you need to get sober. I heard this voice and it sounded like my dad, honestly, saying, you’ve got to grow up. You can’t be a kitten. You can’t continue to live in this victim, this victimhood that you’ve created for yourself. You need to be there for your daughter. And it was in that moment when I realized like, what am I I did to my daughter, inadvertently by being an addict what my dad had done to me by being a long haul truck driver, he left me alone for seven years, or over seven years. I rarely ever someone that was doing the same thing to my daughter that my dad had done to me. And it was in that moment that I realized, what am I doing? My creating another generation that’s going to go through what I went through, is that what I really want to be doing, I realized how unhealthy I was, and that I couldn’t keep doing what I was doing. Like it wasn’t healthy, I wasn’t healthy. And if I wanted to actually be there for my daughter, and and make 30, I had to get sober and like actually get sober and completely walk away from everything that allowed me to continue to be there. And so I did I actually picked up I had not I have not touched a single thing since that day. And I walked away. And I said, Okay, let’s, let’s figure out how we’re going to heal. Let’s, let’s head straight into the darkness now. But let’s do this in a constructive manner. So that’s what I did.

Victoria Volk  1:02:24
Thank you for sharing that and congratulations again.

Shandra Shultz  1:02:30
Thank you. And I think the thing that’s most important if I can, if I can is to say that I look at myself now. And I look at the the girl who wasn’t sober. And I forgave her. And in fact, I told her, I was proud of her. Because I kept myself alive. For 12 years, when I when there was a part of me that just wanted to give up and die. I found a way to survive until I could learn to thrive. And that is so important is it’s okay to not it. It’s okay to feel like you can’t go on but find one thing that can help you to get to the point and just keep following those little, those little breadcrumbs and you’ll get there, but have grace with yourself. Like I had to have grace with myself and be like, You know what, I look at all of these things as they helped create who I am. And I’m happy to be the woman that I am today. And I wouldn’t change any of it no matter how traumatic or how, you know, lost, I might have felt it got me to where I am now. And I’m grateful for that.

Victoria Volk  1:03:41
I just really appreciate all that you’ve shared because I think it really just comes back to there’s one common theme. There’s one theme that I’ve kind of picked up on among all conversations that I’ve had, especially when it comes to addiction, and I don’t care what the vices is shame. Shame really keeps us in the dark.

Shandra Shultz  1:04:11
Oh, definitely. And the thing of it is what I also what I didn’t realize is that that shame is what led me to gain all the weight that I gained multiple times because I was afraid of feeling. So I felt shame in that I was feeling all these things. So how do you do it? You just shove the shame down. So I’m just gonna push you down. And that that was the thing is addiction if like you said it doesn’t matter what the addiction is because you can be a workaholic, you can be an you know, a drug or alcohol abuser. You could be an emotional or any other type of disordered eating. Like there’s so many different gambling all of these things. They all have the same root is that we don’t feel worthy of something and that’s where that shame comes in. I feel ashamed of I’m not worthy but we’re all worthy.

Victoria Volk  1:05:02
But what happened? Right? What happened? what’s at the root? What happens? Trauma is what happens, Grief is what’s left.

Shandra Shultz  1:05:06
Yes, exactly. And it’s getting to the core of those roots. And saying, okay, you know what, I’m not going to, I’m not going to get down on you for feeling that way, I’m going to acknowledge this, this is what it is you feel this. And let’s honor that. And then let’s move on. And let’s, let’s find a way to heal the root. Because if we don’t heal the root, we can, it’s like putting a bandaid. And that’s what I did. I went from, I went from, you know, from drugs and alcohol, to sex, to eating, to gambling, to working to all these different things, because I was afraid of getting to the root of what was what was really pushing me. And then once I got to the root, it was like, Oh, well, that’s not so bad.

Victoria Volk  1:05:55
What we resist persists. And where our focuses is, where we are, and what have been some of the modalities other than energy work that you’ve that have helped you. And I really think you said, you think, I think you said meditation as well, which I’m a huge proponent of too. Anything else?

Shandra Shultz  1:06:18
So, I’m I, I’m a big fan of parts work, and specifically the modality that I that really kind of brought that around to me because I had a background in psychology and just forgotten some of it. And so it’s called the adult chair, I’m actually being certified as a coach in this modality. And what it is, is she basically broke down where things sit, whether it’s in the inner child, the adolescent or the adults well, and for the adult, it’s really the healthiest version of myself and the healthiest adult I can be versus a unhealthy adult. Because when we’re unhealthy adults, we’re really sitting in like adolescent and inner child stuff, just showing up with these masks. So being able to learn that I had these parts of myself that I needed to heal and going in and being able to, like update it like an old program and update the programming was really a beneficial modality for me. I also became trained in Akashic Records work. And then I have used other types of modalities that I’m not trained in, but that I’ve gone in and sought out like cranial sacral therapy, which was absolutely pivotal for really getting to be able to release some of the blocks. In my in my brain specifically, they use cranial sacral therapy a lot for head injuries, because it’s just, it’s a great modality to be able to really release some of the stuckness that happens. And the and the imbalance that can actually happen internally. I used the Emotion Code. So I’ve done some Emotion Code sessions, which I found were really empowering the Reiki energy, I think those were the main things that I did just a lot of the healing modalities and even Chinese medicine like finding holistic doctors so that I could heal my, what was showing up is like, actual physical things and find is it actually my body having something happen? Or is it emotion connected to the body? And it’s showing up that way?

Victoria Volk  1:08:38
Yes, and I don’t know, I’m sure I see this all the time in my Reiki sessions, where it’s grief manifests, and it manifests in what we do, how we behave, and how our bodies show up for us. Yeah, we almost feel like sometimes that we’re at battle with our bodies. Really, it’s upstairs, in our minds. Its where the battle really is.

Shandra Shultz  1:09:08
And that is so true. And that’s one of the biggest things that that I’ve learned is that if we ignore the emotion, it will, it’s like a little kid, it’s gonna keep poking at you and it will find a way to get your attention and a lot of times because emotions can get stuck in the body, it’ll show up it’ll manifest itself in the way of like pain or you know, so a lot of people who have for example, fibromyalgia, they if they go and do or which is I forgot, I’ve done tapping, EFT Emotional Freedom Technique. And so if you go and you do that type of work, where you’re actually allowing the, the you’re speaking it but also letting the body move it. Then a lot of times they find Oh, I don’t have that pain anymore. Or that thing that was bothering me if I haven’t been speaking my voice and I all of a sudden have, you know, thyroid issues. And I start speaking my voice and doing healing and then suddenly the fibroid issues gone. That’s what happened with me was like, okay, you know, so that’s it. It does, it shows up in our body in weird ways. And we were like, oh, okay, cool.

Victoria Volk  1:10:19
All connected.

Shandra Shultz  1:10:20
It is and I think as as I’m sure you knows a Reiki practitioner This is one of the first books that I found was Louise Hay is the the body heals itself. And she talks about that and that that connection of the body, it’s showing up physically, when it’s an emotion, or a feeling.

Victoria Volk  1:10:37
Yeah, she actually healed herself of cancer of a female, like believe uterine, one of the female organs. Yeah, that was actually one of the first books early on, I think, like in 2014, that I had come across my healing started, when I really started to dig into my own healing. And it creates ripples as, as, you know, our healing of ourselves creates ripples in our lives, as I know.

Shandra Shultz  1:11:08
It does, not only in our lives like or in our current everyday, even going back in generation ancestral, like, I’ve done some ancestral work with different modalities of ancestral, like, I think there’s like generational healing is one of the ones I did. And, like, when you heal yourself, you are literally healing up to seven generations back and seven generations forward. So, it’s like, okay, there’s there’s the incentive right there to heal yourself. You don’t just heal you, but you heal your family.

Victoria Volk  1:11:40
Yeah, yeah, that’s the thought I wanted, I think of, to come back to was when you take the time to invest in yourself and in your own healing, you break the cycle? Yes. Right, that cycle of that generational generational learning, which we talk about Grief Recovery, too. It’s all generational. Because we resort to what we know. And when we understand ourselves better, and we’re living in integrity with ourselves. changes everything.

Shandra Shultz  1:12:15
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:12:16
Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Shandra Shultz  1:12:18
No, I think that’s it. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you taking the time on me on.

Victoria Volk  1:12:24
Absolutely. I love this conversation, I think. Yeah, there’s, we could talk for hours, I’m sure of it. I’m going to link to everything that was mentioned in the show notes, the different healing modalities where can people find you if they will reach out to you?

Shandra Shultz  1:12:43
So, I have a website called Igotthewoo.com

Victoria Volk  1:12:49
Clever, clever.

Shandra Shultz  1:12:53
It came about in after my my certification program, like we were on our way back. And she actually like I happen to say I got the wool in my friends. Like that’s you that is so you, that’s what you need to use. And I’ve just ran with it. So, um, and then I am on Instagram at Celtic healer Shandra. And I’m on Facebook is healings of light and love. So, we need to the backslash healings of light and love. And that’s my business page.

Victoria Volk  1:13:31
Perfect. And I will link to those as well. Thank you again, for being here for sharing your stories of many stories of loss. This is a beautiful example of all the different types of loss that we can experience in. I mean, you probably feel like you’ve lived like three lifetimes.

Shandra Shultz  1:13:56
Or more. Yeah. Yep. I say like I’m like a cat. I’ve got the nine lives and how many do I have to have?

Victoria Volk  1:14:04
Yeah, and to I just want to bring up to the just acknowledge the loss of your cat because hat loss and miscarriage are two of the most minimized losses. And, you know, regardless of the relationship of who it is, or what it is, there was a relationship there, and it deserves to be honored. And so that’s, thank you for bringing that up, as well as one of your losses to talk.

Shandra Shultz  1:14:34
Yeah, I’ve had a lot of pet loss so I’ve kind of learned to move through it but it’s also one of the things like I I’ve come to realize that I would not want to miss out on any of that. It’s just like every every moment that I have with all the different people like I would never want to miss out by not having that experience. And so it’s like in the moment it’s really sad to lose them. But that’s why I think back on all like the night with my cat I had them too. Nine years like I have nine years I can be by my side and just loving me and all that. I focus on that rather than focus on the loss. And that allows me to say, You know what, I’m not going to stop myself from letting another animal come into my life in the future just because I’m afraid of the loss because with animals of course, you know, we don’t get as much time as we get with humans, usually.

Victoria Volk  1:15:23
Thank you so much, again, for being here. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 37 | Angela Williams

Angela Williams | Abused by My Mother, Homeless, & Heroin Addict to Ph.D.

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Based on the experiences she had in the first decade of her life, Angela was destined for a life of struggle, and, as her mom declared – die with a needle in her arm by the time she was 16. This prophecy nearly came true more than once. Instead, she got her Ph.D..

A life of trauma, physical, emotional, and sexual abuse by her mother led to early motherhood, heroin addiction, looking for love in all the wrong places, and losing her son to her own mother who put him in foster care. It would take over a decade for her to get her son back.

As her book describes, she was a child that fell through the cracks of the system. And, nearly paid with her life for it. Her story is a hero’s journey where she paved her own path out of living hell.

Connect with Angela:

Victoria Volk  00:00
Welcome Grievers to another episode of grieving voices. This is your host, Victoria. And this week I have a special guest. They’re all special, because all Grievers are special. But this special guest is named Angela. And Angela is an author, a free-range researcher, independent podcaster and survivor of many horrible things in her words. And she is from Sydney, Australia. Welcome, Angela. Thank you for being here.

Angela Williams  00:34
Hi, Victoria. Thank you for having me. It’s lovely to be talking to you today. Well, you know, difficult but lovely. Yeah,

Victoria Volk  00:41
I know. It’s heavy stuff. And I have thoughts on that. Moving the podcast forward actually how I can bring a little lightness to all the heavy, you know. I think we need a little bit more balance in times

Angela Williams  00:53
Think of the cactus flowers, cactus flowers. They’re the theme in the shop. It’s and we find the beauty is hiding there waiting to just pop out. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  01:02
Yeah. And that’s actually where a specific question came from that I came to me today that I will ask you later.

Angela Williams  01:09
Okay.

Victoria Volk  01:10
All right. So, we just met just now, man.

Angela Williams  01:15
Yep, yep.

Victoria Volk  01:16
Yeah, no history here.

Angela Williams  01:19
I feel like we’ve clicked.

Victoria Volk  01:21
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I think that’s the thing with grief. It’s where we all experience it. On some level. And that’s the one thing that we nobody can run from.

Angela Williams  01:35
We can try.

Victoria Volk  01:36
You can try.

Angela Williams  01:38
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  01:39
And that’s what the education piece is all about.

Angela Williams  01:41
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  01:42
The work that I do. But what I do know is that your story begins when you were four.

Angela Williams  01:49
Yeah. So that that’s when I started grieving. When I was four, my father had was an alcoholic, and he died of hepatic cirrhosis. And so, I was four years old, my brother was three years old. And we found out a lot lighter that we actually found him at the time, but it was very traumatic. So, he died. And my mother had, we had been living with my two older brothers who I only met last year for the first time. And they had been raising myself and my brother, because my mother wasn’t very good at it. So then when he died, she just took us and left We went to a couple of different places. And she was incapable of looking after two human beings, but also very, very abusive. So, from she then told my brother and I, for a very long time that our father had died of suicide, and specifically told me any number of times that he’d killed himself because I was a naughty child. So it was, yeah, like I started grieving him 40 years ago, and part of grieving him was that that that gradual awareness as a child that my mother wasn’t like other people’s mothers, so she died on Halloween last year. And I never really liked my birthdays, because they were always really dodgy at home. And she somehow managed to time it so that she committed suicide on Halloween and was then buried on my birthday last year. So instead of going to the funeral, I made a podcast about the situation and so I’m now in this really kind of unique situation of grieving this woman who I started grieving 30 years beforehand, so yeah, she Yeah, my father’s. I probably told the whole story and you were gonna save it up for the whole interview, and I spurted it all out in one go. Yeah, that’s where it started. And that’s where I am now trying to balance all of the lies that she told me about myself and about my world and who I am and how to grieve someone. When it feels like to grieve someone, there has to be a connection, there has to be love or a link there. And it’s very, very difficult to work out how to grieve someone when you almost wish they’d never been born, you know. So yeah, it goes back a long way. And it’s really all flared up in the last year. But since she died, I’ve, my whole life has changed. It’s been remarkable from the day she died, everything got different and that’s why I decided to do a podcast to talk to people like me who are going to have to face this really complicated grieving process somewhere along the line. Lots of us are estranged now and we need to talk about that.

Victoria Volk  05:09
So, you mentioned that she kind of plucked you out of the life that you were living so and where you were and everything familiar. So, it wasn’t even just the loss of your father. It was the loss of yours. Whatever support you did have, correct?

Angela Williams  05:25
Yeah. We, we went from, I’ve only really found the details of this out in the last couple of years from kind of extended family members who I found gradually through poking at the Internet. She she just took us away we had, I was at school, my brother was in preschool, and we just kind of got picked up and moved overnight, she sold my father’s house, liquidated all of these assets, left his other children and his first wife with nothing, and then just took us and, and then we went through this series of living in tiny, isolated places like small flats, and we went to stay for a while in this weird Christian commune in the middle of like regional New South Wales, where we all farmed together, we had to leave there, after she got really violent with me. And when we left places, it was always bundle everyone into the car, pack everything up, and now we go. And then, so it was just, it was this horrible experience of not actually ever having, learning the basic human things. So, like, by the time I left school at 16, left home, I didn’t have any human skills, all I knew was how to be an abused child. Everything I’ve made since then has come out of recognizing the strength I got back there.

Victoria Volk  07:00
So, at the time to when you left at 16, and your brother would have been 15

Angela Williams  07:06
Yes.

Victoria Volk  07:07
She’s equally as you said to him.

Angela Williams  07:10
It was weird mine, it was gendered, very specifically gendered. women had one job according to my mother’s view of the world and men had a different job. So, my brother was abused, but in different ways we both kind of he was a lot of mine was really weird sexual stuff, and emotional abuse and yeah, kind of public humiliation and things but all linked to my sexuality from when I was like a small child she was offering to sell meet men and to auction off my virginity for a boat at the golf club. And she just thought this stuff was funny, she thought she was the funniest person in the world, and it was 1980s 1990s Australia, people didn’t step in with child abuse, we have a terrible history of what we’ve done to children in this country and things that have been covered up institutional child abuse and stuff. And nobody stepped in. People just assumed it was the mother’s job Oh, and so many people said to me over the years, a mother wouldn’t do that to her daughter, particularly the sexual stuff like a mother wouldn’t do that to her daughter. So, it was kind of I was always just trapped in all of these messages that she was giving me the really dangerous messages that then the rest of society was not challenging those messages not interrupting and saying hey actually that’s wrong. I am a little bit by psychiatrists likes to remind me I could have gone to jail for this one but I once ran up at a woman in the supermarket and slapped her across the head and told her to pick on someone around sides because I walked behind over three aisles watching her slap the child across the back of their head every time he reached for something and I wait to stand by it and ignore it because I was that kid that people stood by and ignored so yeah, she gave me a real put a fire cracker and to me that woman I had to be this is where I can read it. Let me Can it Can I just read that bit from my book? Yeah, so I wrote this book. It’s not about promoting this for everyone else that already told Victoria this, but I wrote this book and in this book I talked about it’s called Snakes and Ladders wonderful book, but in their awful awful book I lie It’s not wonderful. But I survived spoiler. It’s about it includes the the horrible things that my mother did to me and the dedication in this book, I wrote it. When I first started writing the book it says to my mother for making me the strongest woman I could be to my mother for making me the strongest woman. I could be all stop That’s what you do with it, you take it and you go, this stuff is intolerable. This is unbearable, you cannot live like this. And then you change it, you do something different with it. So I did something so different to what she told me to do. And now it’s like, right up until the day she I’ve been in therapy for 20 years, okay? 20 years with the same psychiatrist, you can do that in Australia. He’s been both billing me the whole time. It’s free. Because I’m really broken that so you don’t normally get that, but I’m pretty broken. He likes me. But you can get free therapy here. It’s amazing. I forget where I was going, I started talking about therapy. Does it every time you can take all of this stuff and make it into something different. And odd. That’s where I was going. The day she died. I’ve been in therapy for 20 years. And I thought I processed at all. But the day she died. I sat there and because she died of an overdose. She’s she overdosed we don’t know for sure if it was suicide, but it was a painkiller overdose. And that’s what she always said to me. From when I was so young. She said, you’re going to die in the ghetto with a needle hanging out your arm, Angela. And she said it was gonna happen before I was 21. So 21 was when I was like, Oh, I won that. Then 42 I was like, Oh, I got to double what she said, I totally won. But then when she died the same way she told me I was gonna die. Something dropped off my gaze, and I was able to see how much of everything she ever said about me. She was actually saying about herself. She was talking about herself with all of those things that she said to me, and just that moment of realizing she was finally dead. Let me just own the truth of myself as a person separate to that abuse. To like really step into being that strong woman that you have to be when you when you’re raised with all four things you have to be strong or die. As I tried to die with a needle hanging out my arm, I’m just obviously better at surviving. She thought I was going to be I gave it a good read hard go. Heroin is not the way to solve your emotional problems. I can say that 100% confidence, but I’ve gone somewhere different what she planned for me. And letting her go is letting that hold over me go. I am. I started my podcast after she died because after years of worrying about talking and being heard in the world, because she would hunt me down everywhere. She never respected my no contact. As soon as I popped up the social media accounts, she was there she would send requests through friends and constantly had some illness that I needed to rush to her side and comfort her. So, the poor people who had to email me about her finally dying, got that response of I am so sick of this. No, I am not rushing to her bedside again. And then she was actually dead and all I felt was relief. I already processed all the grief. I’ve processed the grief through the book and through the therapy and through making myself into this amazing, strong, capable human being. And I don’t regret not having contact with her. I don’t regret having kept myself safe. I don’t regret prioritizing my safety over her comfort

Victoria Volk  13:42
For the audience, it is Dr. Angela Williams. So, it’s an incredible story. What’s up?

Angela Williams  13:53
I said I’m comfortable in lecture mode.

Victoria Volk  13:56
Can I ask what kind of with doctor?

Angela Williams  13:59
Yes, yes, you can. I actually have a PhD in Creative Arts. I like to tell people that I’m a doctor of making shit up. I taught critical theory at university for seven years, which is all of those big ideas. We used to think about the world like philosophy so the feminism and the socialism and all the different isms and ologies. I taught a big first year class of around 300 students where we taught them how to do things like think and write essays and paragraphs and sentences. Let’s be honest. And so, I’ve given a lot of feedback. Oh, my favorite subject I ever taught was a I was just a tutor for this one. It was a third-year research project. So, the students got to write like a mini thesis, and I did. I was working with about 90 students helping them all make their own little mini thesis research pro at the end of three years of creative art, so there were across all of the disciplines visual arts, dance, and dramatic pin performance and all the rest of them. And including a couple of writers, creative writers, which is my field, they’re always the quiet ones sitting, they sit in a little clump in the middle of the room, and then the louder students get around them. But yeah, so I spent seven years wrangling creative art students to learn how to think while I was writing my PhD well, and after I finished my thesis, but my research was into how writing a memoir is like self surveillance, and we turned the lenses on ourselves to discipline ourselves into being more socially acceptable human beings. proved that theory, didn’t I? Yeah, so that’s what my doctorate is in, I think way too much. And I’m overqualified to do everything. But podcast turns out so yes, I’m technically an expert. They told me. Obviously, I am. Yes. Can I arrange my favorite bit of the book since we’re talking about me being a doctor? Here we go. This I didn’t even write this bit. Neither did my publishers. This is by an Australian author called Anna crying. Sorry, my microphones there. Oh, this is why I started a podcast. Snakes and Ladders is devastating and brilliant. Williams is a tremendous writer, her insight into power and punishment is brave, honest, and revealing. Thank you, Brian. Yeah, so that’s what kind of doctor I am. I am really good at looking at stories and looking inside them and behind them and underneath them. I did University and therapy at the same time. So, I just think all the time.

Victoria Volk  16:51
I think it’s absolutely incredible how I mean, you’re the epitome of the heroine story. And can we circle back to when you were 16? And like, come back to like the time in between now, if the time is between?

Angela Williams  17:11
Say, between 16. And now?

Victoria Volk  17:14
Yeah, like, how did you get from a needle in your arm to a PhD? And like, how did you quit? Like, you just like, kicked heroin, like, I’m done.

Angela Williams  17:24
I’m, I’m really smart. I didn’t know that when I was a kid. I thought that I was creative, which was an insult in my family. So we went to a Pentecostal church, and I had been reading it, my job was to work in the bookshop. That was my volunteering gig. And I read all these books about heroin in the church, bookshop. It took me about 10 years in therapy to realize that what I had done was put those messages together and worked out the consistent thread through all of those books was that when a person started taking heroin, their family stopped talking to her. So, she had already been predicting this for me for many years. So, I didn’t come up with these ideas by myself. But it was a really good escape hatch for me. I used heroin for a few years, got myself in some terrible, terrible trouble, ended up in jail, and then back in jail, 10 years later, the same thing, but um, when I left home, I just, I found a place to live. And she came there and saw me. So, then I moved further away into the city right into the city, and she came and found me. And so, I ended up actually just I lived homeless on the streets of Sydney for about nine months. Um, I was at the time, I was like, I’m pretty sure there’s a private investigator following me. And then my friends will like your paradine Angela, that’s the drugs found out years later that my rd actually had paid a private investigator to try to come and try and find me. And so, I did have a private investigator following me. for brief periods there, I had to make myself so unpalatable to my mother she had, she went through this period of every time she saw me, she would give me money for heroin and would try go and buy it for me offered to shoot the app one day because my hands were shaking too much. She was really it was kind of like Munchausen by proxy. She really liked having a broken child. When I was a kid, she used to feed me toothpaste so I would have a fever and go to the hospital. So by the time I left home, like it took me about a year and a half to get her to leave me alone. And then I met this man and, and he convinced me that he was going to rescue me and when we’re gonna get married, I was 17. He was 26. He’s the father of my child. He convinced me that my parents needed to be involved. In this so they came and met his family and it got really weird. And then it turned out he was abusive, because like part of what you do when you’ve had abusive parents is you go and find a bunch more to keep that abuse going don’t is so I actually have had I think my next book will be about how many relationships are fucked up on the way to having one that actually works. But um yeah, I had a child I was spiraling out of control, and I needed to, I got so sick that I actually genuinely don’t know how I’m alive, I weighed like 36 kilos, you guys can confer those two pounds yourself. And I had this big, crap sores on the corner of my mouth where every time I talked pass would run down my face. And I really liked to talk. So, I got really, really sick. And then I went to rehab, because that’s what you do. And I did 12 months in rehab, and my first therapy while I was there, and I started thinking, and I started putting things together. And the first three months I was in rehab, you weren’t allowed to talk to your family. That was one of the rules. And then I got through 12 weeks, and then my mother rang me. And I stood there, and I had not wanted to use heroin. I was going through the program, I was loving it, I was enjoying being clean. And then I heard a voice on the phone, and I wanted to use again. And I was like this is and then I said, no, I can’t have any contact with you. And then about six weeks later, a social worker turned up at the rehab and told me my mother was dying in hospital and that I needed to go and make my peace with her. And that was in 1997. So that was the first time she got me out of the No Contact thing. And then I just I refused to play by the rules I’d been given. So, I, my son might, she took my son to live with her and put him in foster care. And I didn’t see him for seven years, the police wouldn’t let me file a missing persons report because he was with a family member. So, in that seven years, I tried to kill myself really hard with other drugs, not just heroin, I made my track marks into a work of beauty, you can use them as little soup bowls. And then I went No, I said, this is not working for me. So, I attempted suicide, which was kind of in my genes as well, when you look at it, or how I was raised, but then my suicide attempt failed. And while I was in hospital, the doctor who assessed me was my psychiatrist. And, and how I still see him to today. He, he was the magic thing I had just applied to go to university. And I have been spent 20 years telling this man these stories about myself. And he just he just gives me constant positive regard. He likes me no matter what. And 20 years of therapy, and 13 years at university and the two combined to just I can see so clearly how my teenage years were just like those years after I left home, that was all I Those were the only options I had. I didn’t know how to open a bank account. I didn’t know any of the basics of like economy of how the economy works, how politics works, how to engage with the world, how to get a job, but how to do anything. And so I spent 20 years being my own parent, in therapy, doing, giving myself all the things that my mother hadn’t given me to make myself into a human being and I think I probably technically hit like a human being around about 26 or 27. Before I was actually able to see myself as being the same kind of creature as the people around me. Now I bought I am 100% convinced I am a human being but took a long time. A lot of therapy. He charges $360 an hour to people who are being both build. Oh, I am so privileged this man. It changed my life forever. Oh yeah, absolutely. He is the captain of my fan club. Yep, yep. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  24:46
Sounds like an amazing guy.

Angela Williams  24:47
He is, he is.

Victoria Volk  24:51
Perhaps a father figure you’ve never had?

Angela Williams  24:53
Well, yes and absolutely the father figure I never had but also a kind of rebel. representation of society because the school ignored the abuse, the church ignored the abuse, our Doc’s the Community Services, they got sent out to see us. They saw me at the school and then went back home and told my mother what I said about her. So, all of society was just saying this is okay. shrink Allah, my psychiatrist. He was the first person who said, Actually, no, this isn’t okay. Like, there was a moment where I was telling him this story about how my grandmother said that if I could get a recording of my mother abusing me, then she would go to the police with me. And I was telling my psychiatrists this as evidence that my grandmother was my hero. He was like, hang on, Angela. If she was like, what adult asks a child to provide a recording of them being abused before they will believe you and take action on it. Yeah, he was the first person who ever said actually, no, no, this is not okay. And I needed to hear that.

Victoria Volk  25:58
In grief recovery. We talk a lot about my grief recovery specialists. talk a lot about beliefs. And what I mean was your I don’t know if this is okay to ask. So, if it’s not just let me know. But do you know if your mother who was abused, growing up?

Angela Williams  26:20
Okay, so there is, this is totally intergenerational. This has happened a lot in Australia. We’ve actually just put the story together. In the last, say, four months before my mother died. My auntie died. Well, three and a half months before my mother died, my auntie died and my auntie had been her younger sister, and had been the victim of her abuse growing up my mother and my grandmother used to team up on my sister and my her younger brother who died of suicide Would you believe? So? Arnie Liz died last year in August, September. And then my mother died in October, but in between, we found his briefcase that Ali Liz had had sitting for years and she would say to my uncle, don’t worry about this, this stuff for the kids. And she was kind of like my standing mother, I lost contact with her. She tried to kidnap me when I was 11 after my mother broke a fry pan on my head. And so, then we didn’t see them again until I was an adult and I found myself Um, so Arnie layers had kept this suitcase, this briefcase. So the way the story goes, we put all the documents together. My grandfather was a in the Navy, and he went off to World War Two, and he met my grandmother. And so, he went off to World War Two was on a boat, they accidentally told him my grandmother was at home, pregnant with my oldest Auntie, and they accidentally told my grandfather that she was dead her and the baby had died. And so then he ceased all contact with her back in Australia. And at the same time, the Navy decided the way to treat his grief was to feed him heaps of rum and put him in an officer training program. And then because of you know, all those screw ups that happened in World War Two, he didn’t come back to Australia for five years. And he lived as an officer in the Navy drinking heaps of rum and constantly reporting back to the hit the medics that he wasn’t dealing wasn’t coping with this while at home. My grandmother was going mad because her brand-new husband had deserted her and left her at home with this baby. So we’re pretty sure that something broke in the family then they went on to have three more children and my mother was the eldest of those three children. So, my grandmother was a nasty woman. And everybody agreed with that. She was nasty to her children, and she taught my mother her unique brand of nastiness. So, it wasn’t my mother would tell you she was abused by everyone. Everyone abused her. My stepfather abused her my father abused her my grandmother abused her. The people who were victims and my mother tell it very differently so I’m something broke in our family in World War Two. I’m trying to put we’ve got all of this in my grandparents own handwriting. My grandfather’s written this to the Veterans Affairs trying to get recognition of what was done to the family. But I think something broke back then. And so, then they came back to Australia and Australia had a really long we have made torturing children a tradition here. We routinely dig up backyards in the inner west of Sydney where there are multiple babies skeletons buried around because you could make money at certain stages of Sydney’s history by we call them the baby farmers. They would take babies on to look after them or to rehouse them and then just kill them and bury them in the backyard. We had orphanages set up just to bring homeless destitute children from the UK and the US to Australia to farm them out for profit. And this is like 100 years ago 150 years ago, so we had a really bad history of child abuse in Australia that was ignored on every level. So, it’s kind of filtered down to it is ridiculous how many friends I have. It’s such similar stories of mothers like mine. But down to really ridiculous. I have one friend and we both had the same identical experience of being made to paint ceilings in our house in the light one at two o’clock in the morning, standing on tables whilst being beaten with broomsticks. That is such a precise, it’s like we taught women in this country mothers in this country how to abuse children. So it, I can understand why she was the woman she was, but I can’t forgive it. But luckily, it turns out that forgiveness isn’t as necessary as they make out. Yes, so she there was something broken in the whole family. And my grandfather was one of the first people to get off the boat and set foot Hiroshima after the things did you know, we let Navy officials just get off and wander around there after the bombs went off without any PPA. Whoa, and then his hair was falling out and he was bleeding from his rectum for the rest of his life. Yeah, yeah. So I’m, I’ll do something with that suitcase full of records, write a book about it, but we can always you look at society, you look at any level of society, you can find something there that is guaranteed to turn a person into a monster. But at the same time, we have to look at the monsters and go doesn’t make it okay. The monster I should have been a monster I should be Myra Hindley, the serial killer, the most murderer had such a similar upbringing to me, I should have been Myra Hindley. But instead, I did therapy, wrote about my stuff, changed my life. And now I’m a beacon for good. We don’t have to live out the histories that were given.

Victoria Volk  32:12
It takes people like you to break that cycle to break the pattern of that generational learning. Because imagine then, if you hadn’t, how would your relationship be with your son? How would your son be, you know?

Angela Williams  32:27
Well, my son came back out of foster care to live with me when he was 11. Apparently, that never happens. So, we talked about it, he was officially put back into my care when he was 16. I took him back from the state. I was like, give me back those papers, which apparently again, never happens. But he lives with me now. He’s an adult 26 we have the best relationship in the world. He has been very slow about getting any relationships. And there’s damage there that comes from having a family like mine, but we did something different. He’s my hero. Would you like to say a picture of him from the book? So ah, he’s amazing. His name is Finn. I call them decks in the book. He got to choose his own name. There he is. Oh, that’s what he was little. And there is with me and him. No call. Oh, there’s my boobs. Look, I covered my boobs.

Victoria Volk  33:22
Check out this book.

Angela Williams  33:24
I’ll do but yeah, you don’t get the pictures in the edition. People have been very disappointed about that. It’s a very good book. Lovely. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  33:33
I like a book in my hands. Yeah, like a book in my hands.

Angela Williams  33:37
Sniff them. You can’t sniff in a book.

Victoria Volk  33:41
You can’t doggy ear you can’t like right?

Angela Williams  33:45
Take posted notes. Where do you put your posted note?

Victoria Volk  33:51
I know! So let me ask you this. Among all the chaos and the trauma and use and and and and where did you find your joy? How long did that take too?

Angela Williams  34:09
Finally my middle name is Joy, Angela joy because I’m an angel of joy. Yeah, I don’t know where she was going with that. But um, I found my joy by recognizing my superpowers. complex trauma does has an effect on the structure of your brain, particularly complex trauma with really young people so your, your brain wires differently to normal people and it gives you some things that like when we talk about pathologies, they kind of describe these as symptoms but I prefer to think about them as superpowers. So it was a really slow process, going to university and realizing that I was very good at critical thinking. I can put a Very sound argument together; I can read some very disparate different sources and bring them together to make a hole. And it took me a very long time to realize that that was because I was smart, I had been creative was the insult I it took me a really long time to realize that I was smart. Once I started to let myself relax into that. studying and learning and writing and creating is where I find my joy. It’s I’ve won a couple of awards for the book where I got to before it was published, I got to go and stay in this amazing writer’s retreat up in the Blue Mountains just above Sydney. And one day I wrote like 22,000 words, in one day, I was from like, three o’clock in the morning, I woke up just with the flow of burning in me and just wrote, that’s where I found my joy, I found my joy in not quite retelling, it’s reimagining every story I come up against, I challenge it, and I think about all the different angles and that’s, that’s why I started my podcast. So, I could just share this stuff with the world, I usually just share it with my Facebook and people are like, Angela, you need to talk to other people about this. I’ve done some conferences, a couple of appearances, and I just I love taking the bad stuff and making it into something good being able to find those cactus flowers. When I, when the editors of my book first read it, they were like this is an amazing book, there is a wonderful story, we just need you to find. Some of them are pretty bits, we need you to find the joy in there and bring it out because it’s a very heavy book to read otherwise. And so I’d gotten addicted to this kind of flow activity of learning and reading and synthesizing information before I realized that I was enjoying it. So, I was at university getting those really good marks going, spending 80 hours a week reading and researching and writing. And then never making the connection that the really good marks I was getting. And the fact that I was happily and willingly spending all of these hours reading things that other people were very resistant to reading. That’s where I get my joy and my flow. It’s the superpower of part of the brain damage that’s inflicted on you as an abused child is hyper awareness, you have to watch for everything, you have to read the tiny, tiny details because that’s what keeps you alive. I took hype awareness and made it into a craft an art form skill that I can use to make myself stronger. And that’s it. That’s where I found my joy in flipping all of the narratives and all of the stories I was ever given. And turn upside down look underneath find out the other version of the story and then do that instead. Yeah, yeah. And build the superpower theory has only really formed over the last five years or so when I got quite heavily into researching cortisol and neuro Neuro Linguistic prayer. I’m not I’m not doing NLP. I think it works, but I’m not doing it. But once I started researching how brain chemistry get to get gets fits together, I realized that Yeah, I get way too excited about research. So I just let myself do it now, freelance researcher, I am not affiliated with the university, I am considering a current research arrangement that might let me stick my nose into corrective services. But mostly I just to work from my fun

Victoria Volk  38:33
Was it your therapist that encouraged you to apply for university.

Angela Williams  38:37
No, no, it was not my therapist. It was well yeah, he encouraged me to apply for university, but I’d already kind of started the process before I met him. I was flirting with the idea people. I used to take a lot of drugs. I know I don’t seem as sort of way, but um, for a very long time. Or maybe it just seems longer because I was on drugs. I would have these conversations with people and the pool tables in the toilets at the pub at the bus stop. And they’d be like, you should go to university Angela. Um, so lots of people said it. And then I met this guy. He’s like, I was 26. He was 16. It was nothing romantic. He’s gay. Were bsfc lives in Canada. But he started going to university, and we were hanging out quite a bit. There was drugs involved. He started going to university and he was like, honestly, sorry, Chris. I know you’re listening. Not very smart. Not very smart. So, I was like, well, he’s going to university surely I can go to university right? And so, he made me drive with him to Wollongong University, just south of Sydney. And I was like, oh, this is pretty nice, isn’t it and then I watched him get to put your form in in person back then I watched him put his form in and I was like, by the time we got back to the car, I was like, dude, I’m gonna go to university. It was like, I think you should, And I didn’t know you could get scholarships because that I hadn’t done your 12 the end of school HSC we call it, I didn’t know you could get scholarships to pay for the bridging course. So, I was working in the sex industry. So, I just went to work and stayed at work until I made enough money to pay for that course. So, I could get in and go to university. Um, yeah, yeah, I was just determined to go. And then I worked in the sex industry the whole way through university, to pay my way there, which is legal in New South Wales, and we pay taxes and things. It’s excellent. And by the time I finished my second degree at university, I was just taught, I just stayed there until they started paying me to be at university. And then I got so involved, and I saw the back end of University and I went, I don’t want to work for your people anymore. I’m just gonna go and think for myself now. Yeah, so it was Christopher’s fault. He’s the reason I went to university. He’s just upstairs from you in Canada, give him a poke with the state.

Victoria Volk  41:02
There’s so many layers to you. Like it’s just,

Angela Williams  41:05
I know, I know.

Victoria Volk  41:06
What’s the next what’s the next chapter?

Angela Williams  41:10
I’m on, I’ve met this woman. I’ve had lots of very awful relationships in my time. And I’ve met this woman and she’s pretty excellent. We’ve been together for coming up on two years now. And our families like each other. And her mother gave me a card at Christmas time that know for my birthday right before Christmas. That said to my daughter in law, so we figure she’s dropping some pretty heavy hints there. Um, yeah, we are talking about going Bush, we’re gonna go and live in a tiny town and grow vegetables except for when there’s a drought, then we’ll just eat dirt and stuff. Because Australia and she started a business. I’ve got a couple of different things I do. I’m writing another book, of course, actually, that’s a lie. I am writing six different books at the moment. So, I should probably focus in a bit pour my energies towards just one of them for a while. Yeah, I’m just relaxing. I’m 44. I’m pretty sure that I’ve started metaphors. I’m going to see the doctor about that on Thursday. I’d really like to just relax and enjoy the second half of my life. I want this thing to go away. Like to. Yeah, my son’s name is Finn. I told him it’s my Finkle.

Victoria Volk  42:34
These are my like the number 11 I got you know, 11 lines. It’s Are you effing KIDDING ME lines?

Angela Williams  42:41
Well, I think I’ve done it so much. Mine squashed into one. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I am I’m a bundle of contradictions. My podcast, I go 20 minutes, Monday to Friday and,

Victoria Volk  43:00
Wow. What’s your what’s your podcast?

Angela Williams  43:03
Oh, my podcast is called the Deboning Power. I like to stick my knife into things. I just I’d make terrible puns. And I can’t stop myself. So, I talk about mostly I talk about New South Wales and Australian politics, I bust a lot of spin there. But then at the same time I have at least once a week I do one on getting better. The therapy stuff, Badaling, all of that amazing therapy I’ve had and just trying to speed it at the intent. And on Mondays I talk about kink. BDSM. I’m a bit of a community leader. So, I educate people about how to do things safely. It’s all a good combination. Power just pretty much covers everything, doesn’t it? You talk about power; you can talk about anything you want. Um, yeah, I asked if you’ve got questions. I’m very good at reading media. And I really dislike my politicians. So, I have to tell them that frequently. Um, yeah, but my therapy ones are my most popular. No, that’s a lie. People love the kink ones they get very excited about those, but the therapy are the second most popular episodes. Yeah. Politics is just what I do for fun.

Victoria Volk  44:11
I just, I love, I love this interview because it’s going from heavy to light to so many spectrums of the human experience that I mean do you feel like you’ve lived like three lifetimes?

Angela Williams  44:26
Oh, yeah, totally. I’m waiting let me I know I wrote this bio. Yeah, no, it’s in my bio. It says Where are you by Oh, come back here. It says that I’ve lived way more lives than by 20 I’d lived more lives than anyone should have I’ve but that was it right? Because I wasn’t my mother didn’t teach me how to be a human so I had to learn for myself and all of the predictions she made for me She told me I’d end up in sex work so I went into sex work became an incredibly successful like professional dominatrix. She told me I was gonna die from using heroin. So I use heroin. Instead used as a tool to escape and to get away from her. And she told me that I was creative. And that meant that everything I said was a lie. And instead, I became a writer and became very well equipped at just speaking truth. Truth is what I do better than anything. And this for a podcast about grieving. This is so important, because I’ve grieved my auntie, this year and my stepfather in a much more complicated way. But everything I’ve made in my life, every single weird thing that I’ve stuck my finger into, has been in response to my grief for not having a mother not having that central cohesive, because she was there, but she wasn’t a mother. So that’s everything I’ve done. My psychiatrists, my sex work, my education, it’s all been about mothering myself, giving myself the things that she wasn’t giving me and the thing. The thing that’s been hardest about her actually dying, was, how much relief I felt. And how uncomfortable I felt saying that other people I could tell my girlfriend or my psychiatrists, but it’s really hard with most people to say yes, my mother just died and I feel absolute relief. Over the years, lots of people have said, you need to make your peace with her. She’ll regret regret it when she’s dead. Everything I’ve done has been me making my peace with her. And I didn’t realize how efficiently I’d already grieved her. I didn’t realize how making myself into the opposite of what she thought I was gonna be was. It was a gift I was giving myself because that’s all grief is isn’t it? They don’t know were grieving them. They’re, they’re gone. They all of our grief is something that we give ourselves. It is a for some people, it’s soothing. for other people. It’s relief. And it’s about us, though, not them. And yeah, I couldn’t go to the funeral. I couldn’t my brother when she changed her name, after the court said that she wasn’t legally allowed to have access to my son. Cuz, she tried to get him removed from my care and put in foster care up near where she lives. So, she could see him up there. And I’m like, no, that’s not happening. And I, in exchange asked for an order saying that she never be allowed to see him again while he was child. So she changed her name after that. And so I would have had to turn up to a funeral with all these people from her church, who had become her church was very important to us. And I couldn’t have my truth there. I couldn’t, I couldn’t. I couldn’t perform the grief that they would expect me to perform. And I couldn’t fake it. If I walked into their I would not call her by her name that she talked to you avoid. Police finding out she was talking to children. I would just I’m too honest, I couldn’t do it. And every single funeral that I’ve been to, my army chose not to have a funeral. We got drunk on her river and sent her ashes out there all happily and celebrating under her tree where we fished together for years. I couldn’t give my mother that I couldn’t did a podcast instead. talked about it. Yeah,

Victoria Volk  48:32
Maybe a podcast about a eulogy that you would have liked to have written.

Angela Williams  48:39
Oh, well I tried that right. I was gonna give her a eulogy. And instead, I just ranted about how horrible it was that she decided to get buried on my birthday. Because you know, I do my podcasts every day. So, some of them get quite a lot of research. Some are just I am yelling at you today internet and that’s okay. When you do it every day, they can’t all be amazing. But that one was quite amazing. It was very raw I am I didn’t want to give her a eulogy. She um she left a stack of notebooks a stack of them and my brother burden I am I asked him to because we knew we knew that all that would be in there would be pages and pages and pages of explanations for why she was a victim in the world and everyone was out together and I’ve had it I’ve had the letters sent to me pages saying if you don’t respond to now I’m cutting you out of the will cut out of the well the first time when I was 14. So, it’s like you can’t keep holding that thread over me forever. And it turned out there was no will so or anything to leave.

Victoria Volk  49:43
The truth how you saw at people close to her? Probably never did.

Angela Williams  49:49
No, no, no. My brother asked if I wanted them. Or if I wanted him to say anything. said tell them to read my book. But that’s my truth. Yeah. Yeah. Because I’m, that’s it, I’m on to them, I said goodbye to them. By writing that book, I had to find some kind of sympathy for them in writing in that empathy that you have to have for your characters, even when you know their people abused you. I found a whole new level of understanding for my mother and writing that book and who she is as a person was as a person. But um, the only reason I would have turned up to that funeral was to make the other people there feel better about it. Yeah, I felt more guilty about being the MTC in the Pew then missing saying goodbye to my mother I’ve been. I’ve cried over too many times. Every time I cried myself to sleep after a beating, those were the tears that should have been at the funeral. And like I said to her, when she tried to ask me if she could move in with me a couple of like, last year sometime, I said I am. If you want to have children who are going to look after you’re in your old age, you have to skill your children up as human beings before they leave home. You can’t abuse someone for most of their life, and then say, Well, now it’s your turn to look after me. Yeah, can’t you just can’t do that? Yes. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  51:23
So she’s the epitome of a narcissist too?

Angela Williams  51:27
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Top to bottom. Yeah, and prescription pill addicts. So, you know, had lots of doctors treating her for lots of different illnesses and all kinds of prescribing. Yeah, medication for different things. And she would self diagnose and then go to a doctor and tell them that someone else had diagnosed her with that thing and then,

Victoria Volk  51:54
Coming back to what you were talking about with, like how other people would say that. You need to make peace with her regretted it’s like, what people don’t understand is like you like in grief recovery? Oftentimes, the people that give us the most grief are people who are living.

Angela Williams  52:11
Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of people when they say that they’re projecting their own experiences onto other people as well, if you’ve grown up with loving, supportive parents, it is very, very hard to conceptualize. Like, it’s equally hard for me to conceptualize loving, supportive parents, you can’t just assume everyone else has had the same experience as you. And when people say that to you, when they say, well, you’ll regret this after they’re gone. what they’re actually doing is trying to place this responsibility on you to value your blood connections over your own safety and security. If someone has just told you that they’ve been terribly abused by someone, and you turn around by saying, or you need to stay in touch with them, you need to have their your mother You have to have that connection, what you’re actually doing is I’m telling them, that all the stuff that that person has done to them matters less than their safety, no, sorry, matters more than their safety. It’s and grief is so difficult, we need to know to people will grieve the same way. And it’s been really strange talking to my brother about this, because we never, we’ve had a very difficult relationship because we were co victims, you know, victim bonded, and then talking to our kids about it. He has five kids and I have one kid and we talk to them about stuff. Particularly stuff with suicide, because my brother has four girls, my cousin has three girls, we talk about the suicide stuff, because not talking about it is more dangerous than talking about on now. My father’s suicide was not real. So, I don’t count that in the tally anymore. But apart from my father, I’ve lost half of my mother’s generation to suicide. And that’s enough. That’s enough. Yeah, so we talked to the kids, and we talked about the abuse, and we talked about what it means. And we talked about suicide because that’s it right you know, when you when you live with this risk, how can we reasonably certain I have complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, one of the most likely ways I will die is from suicide. That’s just the reality of my illness and my history and my baggage, so I kind of live around that risk knowing that yeah, and I suppose my mother’s done it now. So that’s even more likely, isn’t it? Um, that pushes me into even further into a risk category and that was that was one of my biggest concerns over the period where she was being buried. It was my birthday, which the last time I saw her on my birthday She sexually assaulted me in front of a big group of people and made a joke out of it. And yeah, so I was in a real risky place around that week and, but I just did what I do I talk to my psychiatrist, I talk to my girlfriend and kept myself safe. Yeah. I got docked in it. It’s okay.

Victoria Volk  55:25
You’re talking to me. You’re here.

Angela Williams  55:28
I know. I know. You’re like Oh, so many times over the last 10 years I’ve just stopped and yelled at the sky, I win! I am, I did so different to what I was told to do. I became whole.

Victoria Volk  55:44
The whole suicide narrative that doesn’t have to be your story. You don’t have to live into that story.

Angela Williams  55:51
Yeah, but we have to talk about it. Exactly.

Victoria Volk  55:55
As much as you talked in, you know, I’m sure your therapist, ie your father figure.

Angela Williams  56:03
In Australia, were as scared of talking about suicide as we are talking about child abuse. We have named renamed world Suicide Prevention Day is now called Are you okay? De? Shut up? No, it is and instead of talking about suicide, people say, are you okay to all their friends and everyone wears a badge on that day and then we don’t have to talk about it the rest of the year. And our Prime Minister has just hired a woman for one of these marketing buddies who is going to she is revolutionizing the Suicide Prevention space in Australia by she’s making a program where we’re going to identify people who might be at risk of suicide and then offer them support and counseling but without bringing up the topic of suicide so we’re going to talk cast people go up and have conversations with them where we just all of a sudden look really positive and cheerful that I’m sure will say Are you okay? And but we’re not ever going to mention the word suicide So yeah, I respond to my environment. This country is a bit toxic in some ways. So yeah,

Victoria Volk  57:08
Better line would be, how do you feel?

Angela Williams  57:12
Well, yeah, I’ve been every year. I’ve I kind of I get a bit activist around Are you okay day, and I like to do things like, why isn’t it okay for me to say I’m not okay. Yeah, and this year this year, it was Oh, sorry. Last year. 2020. Do you guys have kitkats? Over there? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Do they have the have a break? Have a KitKat? ad? Guess who sponsored Are you okay, day in 2020. kid? Are you okay? Have a break? Have a KitKat?

Victoria Volk  57:46
Anything related?

Angela Williams  57:50
Yes. Someone in the marketing room thought they were an absolute genius coming up with that sponsorship campaign.

Victoria Volk  57:56
Make suicide talk clever.

Angela Williams  57:58
Yeah, yeah. How to kick cat instead of killing yourself.

Victoria Volk  58:01
Oh my god.

Angela Williams  58:02
We want to talk about it without talking about suicide. So yeah, yeah. It’s one of my topics.

Victoria Volk  58:08
Yeah. bring that to the forefront, more regularly. Yeah, for sure.

Angela Williams  58:14
Yeah. I’m a bit of an activist in the circle. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  58:19
My Bringer.

Angela Williams  58:21
Truth speaker, brutal, unflinching, and honesty is my brand. Yeah. I say the things that other people are just too uncomfortable to say.

Victoria Volk  58:33
What would you like to scream to the world? and wish people knew about your grief?

Angela Williams  58:39
I did write something that didn’t I?

Victoria Volk  58:42
I think it comes down to just that you don’t always have a loving relationship.

Angela Williams  58:47
Yes. All right. I already said that. No, yes, that is the thing. The thing I would like to scream to the world is that not everyone has a loving relationship with the person they’re grieving. And we need to make space for people who don’t we’re in Australia, there’s a fly there. Not everyone is going to mourn with sadness and tears. The shock on some people’s faces when I said they said, I said my mother died. They said, how are you I said, I feel relief need to make room for people to feel relief, we need to welcome these kind of stories of grieving that challenge the norm and challenge the stereotypes because lots of people have come to me over the years and asked for my support with going no contact with abusers. There’s a lot of people out here living this truth. And the reason I’m talking about this as much as I am right now is just to say to all of them, you’re not necessarily going to regret it. You’re not we don’t all grieve the same way and we don’t all love the same way and we weren’t all raised the same way. We have to give each other room for the differences.

Victoria Volk  1:00:01
Because we’re all unique, and every relationship is unique, and like you kind of brought up a little bit earlier, like you and your brother lived in the same household with the same person, but your experiences, you’ll see it from your own unique perspective, and you won’t believe the same.

Angela Williams  1:00:17
I don’t. No.

Victoria Volk  1:00:19
So, coming from a place of understanding and compassion?

Angela Williams  1:00:24
Absolutely compassion, we need to just be more gentle on each other. We’re also willing to tell each other what’s wrong with the other person, but much less willing to look at ourselves, I it’s the biggest value I’ve had of therapy every two weeks, I spend an hour fact checking my reality and identifying when I have fucked up when something is my fault. And when I have contributed to something, and then changing that.

Victoria Volk  1:00:54
What does that look like? What does it process for you?

Angela Williams  1:00:58
Oh, I’m big on accountability and honesty, and I screw up all the time. It’s, for me that it’s hard, it’s hard to realize that you’ve done something wrong, or that you’ve been an idiot, or that you haven’t noticed something harmful you’ve done to another person. I did a I did a really good podcast recently about shame and secrets and about how we talk about them. And I think for me, a big part of living so honestly, is learning to also cope with shame, deal with shame, acknowledge shame, Own your shame. It’s the the feeling that we run away from the most is shame. And I know that my feeling of not wanting to leave that empty seat at my mother’s funeral was linked to my shame of never having been a good enough daughter for her never having. And I’ve carried that shame so long, but it’s still something that I need to check again and again and again. And its stuff that it’s so easy to project onto other people.

Victoria Volk  1:02:13
This is like the third time the word shame has come up today.

Angela Williams  1:02:18
Really?

Victoria Volk  1:02:19
Yeah, and so that’s actually where I was kind of going and how shame is very much tied to grief. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, we may feel guilty about something. It’s these conflicting feelings of I should feel this way. But I really feel that way. I want to feel this way. But I have this weight of shame. Yeah, and, and that blocks us from the ability to be intimate with ourselves, like to really look at ourselves, and really connect with other people.

Angela Williams  1:02:59
Yep. Or shame is such an uncomfortable feeling it is. It’s prickly and horrible. It’s when our chest gets warm, and our throat gets warm, and our face gets warm. And most people will never even recognize that they’re feeling shame. In my opinion, I think a lot of us flip it instantly into fear or disgust or anger or rage to avoid having to feel shame. And I think that people like myself, and like my mother who blamed everything outwards. That’s about doing anything possible to avoid having to come close to that shame. And what you’re saying is true. It blocks you from any kind of intimacy with yourself or with other people. Because when you’re 100% doing everything you can to avoid feeling shame, you never give yourself the space to connect realistically with people because everything is about protecting yourself from shame. And it means that when you need to be accountable to someone, if you’re doing everything you can to avoid the shame. All you’re going to do is put up a wall between you and that person. And that’s usually cut that wall is really frequently blame. It’s your fault. You did this to me, you made me do this. And as soon as we put the word you in there, we’re pushing our shame away putting it onto another person and saying this is yours. It’s it’s so much harder to just say, I’m really sorry I did this, and I can see how awful it’s been for you and then just stop talking.

Victoria Volk  1:04:40
Be honest. Right?

Angela Williams  1:04:41
Yeah, it is.

Victoria Volk  1:04:42
And that honesty is the drug is the wrong word. Antidote for shame.

Angela Williams  1:04:45
Oh, that’s a good one.

Victoria Volk  1:04:52
It is the antidote for shame.

Angela Williams  1:04:55
It is. Do it, do it. I think I might have said something similar in my shame. People message me all the time to say they’ve read that one. I mean, listen to that one, it’s amazing. We need to talk about shame more.

Victoria Volk  1:05:10
And the word grief, and the word suicide.

Angela Williams  1:05:13
Oh, yes. And how they all lay it together, I was I’ve spent so much of my life, thinking that if I could just be a bit more something, then I’d be the kind of person my mother could love. And my first suicide attempt, when I was really young, came as a reaction to feeling that I would never match up to that. And my last suicide attempt came from a feeling that I would never match up to that. And that feeling that I would never match up to it. That is shame. That is, but that is that’s absolutely shame that’s been kind of mis smeared on to me, but I never did anything wrong, I didn’t actually have anything to be ashamed of there, there was no way that I could have made that woman love me no matter what I did, but

Victoria Volk  1:06:04
And then here’s the thing. She wasn’t there, when she wasn’t, she wasn’t there for you to even blame and wanted to blame her, she would turn it around and spin it on you. So that’s where that self destructive behavior, if people don’t, aren’t able to communicate, and get that out, like, just even speak it.

Angela Williams  1:06:31
But the other thing is right, that that shame, I can see that shame now and know that it’s not my shame. But before I could do that, I had to feel that shame, and process it and think about it in all of its deeper layers. So, when I first met that shame, it was my shame because I hadn’t looked at it enough to know that it wasn’t. And so, when you can identify shame that has been smeared on you from outside like that, then you can step back from it and go, no, I don’t own it. It’s not my shame. But you’ve got to go through the process of feeling at first. And so, a lot of a lot of things that people turn into more dangerous emotional, well, toxic emotions, like anger and rage is things and blame was something where if they just sat with the shame, set with the feeling and thought about what it said about them, it might have been that they’d done something that they needed to apologize or be accountable for. Or it might have been that they were carrying some baggage that had been smeared on them from outside. But by refusing to feel the shame through that uncomfortable bit and think about it, they’ve lost the ability to it becomes their shame, then no matter where it comes from, because they can’t look at it long enough to categorize it, sort it into its basket. Shame is toxic. I’m pretty sure that shame is linked to the majority of suicides that happen and I can see my mother’s as a direct result of her own shame made had finally gotten to the stage where she couldn’t keep spinning games to people. But that was her shame, not mine.

Victoria Volk  1:08:16
I believe the root of shame is grief.

Angela Williams  1:08:20
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:08:22
I believe grief is at the root of a lot.

Angela Williams  1:08:29
Yeah, and we haven’t I think we’re carrying a lot of kind of societal and cultural grief as well. Some of the things that we’ve seen humanity being capable of in the last 100 or so years. I will buy way before that as well. But you look at things like World War Two and the impact that had on my family we all kind of we have a lot of shame that’s spread around and it is about grieving it’s about when you feel shame you’re grieving something in yourself. We don’t only grieve deaths we lead grieve losses as well. And payment grief so much shame about grieving. I was supposed to bounce back we’re supposed to be able to deal with it. We’re supposed to,

Victoria Volk  1:09:14
Yeah, I could talk all day about grief. It’s really the loss of hopes dreams and expectations and anything we wish would have been different better or more. And so, when you think of grief in that way it that’s why I say everyone, every single one of us has grieved something.

Angela Williams  1:09:33
Yet, all we’re putting off grief to later we’ve got something we should have grieved, or we need to grieve and we’re saving that up for ourselves to do some other time.

Victoria Volk  1:09:45
But we’re dealing. Dealing with it yes, some way. Yeah. You know what, if you turn into the bottle, if you’re turning to sex, if you’re turning to gambling, you’re turning on your turn into shopping. You’re you’re addressing it?

Angela Williams  1:09:58
Well, yeah, I did a podcast on this yesterday where I was talking about endorphins and pain and how endorphins work just there your brain’s natural heroin. So, when you’re doing things that give you an adrenaline rush, basically all you’re doing is getting your brain to shoot out its own heroin. And that works for emotions as well as for like physical pain. So yeah, the great eraser is what they call alcohol in the AIA movement, the great eraser and it is it’s just, you’re not dealing with it, you’re just kind of putting a cap on it and hope that it will stay there for a while. But your card that those caps don’t hold, they got to cover off eventually.

Victoria Volk  1:10:42
Well, no grief recovery can be equated to picture yourself as a tea kettle.  And you either implode or you explode.

Angela Williams  1:10:52
Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. And that bit in between, you’re going to be spitting stuff in every direction. Yep. Yes.

Victoria Volk  1:10:59
I’m assuming it was your therapist, who was the most supportive of you? What did you find? was most helpful to you? And I started to navigate everything.

Angela Williams  1:11:14
When I first got the email, saying that they needed me to call about my mother. I am. I hope she was dead, after all the times that she’d kind of use that as a tool. But I couldn’t let myself hope because it had happened a lot before, but I couldn’t I also couldn’t. It’s really difficult to say to a person who was ringing me to say your mother’s in hospital, you need to come and see her to say no, I’m not doing this again. So, I rang my brother and said, I think can you call this person I think something’s gone wrong with our mother. And that was the best thing I did. asking him to do that for me. I couldn’t have done it. A year ago, we drove to my Arnie’s for her funeral together it was the longest we’d spent alone together since we were children. So, I called him and asked him to take that and then in the bit in between me saying that to him and him ringing back to tell me that she was dead. My beautiful girlfriend just I didn’t cry. It was really I felt shame about not crying. But I just kind of sat there with it kind of gradually dawning on me that maybe this time she actually was dead and and then I had four or five days of just was like I was startled cat constantly. It was really bad timing. The Jacaranda trees were out, and they triggered off some really bad stuff from my 16th birthday. So traditionally, my entire life every single time I’ve seen a Jacaranda tree. I’ve had this moment of being triggered back into my 16th birthday. And day after she died, I went out driving with my girlfriend and a sort of Jacaranda tree. And I just had this moment of lightness in my heart. So it took me a couple of days to actually believe that it was real this time that I wasn’t going to open my email or my messenger to a big long message or lots of messages from people she’d messaged about me, but I just I took that space, my girlfriend has sat on the lounge next to me and held my hand and she just kept saying to me, I’m here, like whatever you need. I’m here. First, I got an in practice I had, when Annie LEDs died in September, I grieved really hard, I cried on the floor in the kitchen for hours. And I cried on the floor in the bathroom, and you know all the places with tiles, let’s go and cry there. But I couldn’t cry over my mother, I couldn’t. I just needed the space. And I needed the space to own that reality, and to go yet. And then I had my next therapy session. And then it’s harder she died, and we talked about that. And then I have my next one where I said and you wouldn’t leave, she got married or got buried on my birthday. And he was just like, of course she did. And it was like I needed those people around me who I knew would just affirm my decisions. And luckily, I’ve curated my world quite well. All of the people who said things like, our mother would never do that to her daughter, I’d gone I just haven’t I don’t give them space in my world. So I just yeah, I needed that space and I needed a couple of days to just test. I kept expecting to feel regret. I kept expecting to feel loss. And all I felt was like the threads are finally gone. The threat that she could pop up any second and want my attention again or The worst thing she ever did was every single time she saw me as an adult, she apologized for what she did to me. And then she said, I don’t remember any of it. I wasn’t there when any of it happened. So yeah, yeah. She said, I’ll let you publish that little book, and you say whatever you want, because your reality is your reality. And it was like, your reality is your reality is pretty good. But the bait at the beginning what you say, will you publish that little book. Um, yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:15:28
Give him permission.

Angela Williams  1:15:30
No, I didn’t. And I kind of can’t believe I waited until after she died to start a podcast because I’ve been yelling a lot for years. But um, I just gave myself space to let myself be however I was. And it was a surprise for me every day. I’m still kind of surprised that I don’t feel regret.

Victoria Volk  1:15:49
So, advice. And it’s that’s advice too, for others.

Angela Williams  1:15:55
It is nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:15:59
The people around you that,

Angela Williams  1:16:02
Connect with people you’ve similar experiences. if for no other reason, then just so that you’ve got someone you can talk to? Who knows? Because really, I can’t imagine only having friends who’d had excellent relationships with their mother and then trying to talk about this. About this big circle of friends. I call them the bad mothers club. We um, we know, we know, because we’ve all been there. So those are the ones I went to talk about it because they want to know.

Victoria Volk  1:16:36
Can I ask you something?

Angela Williams  1:16:38
Yes.

Victoria Volk  1:16:39
How do you hear something today, too? And I’ve been given it a lot of thought even before, but do you identify yourself as a survivor? Like, is that a word? That you feel like you wear like a badge of honor.

Angela Williams  1:16:58
Some people hate that way.

Victoria Volk  1:17:00
Or do you feel like that’s something that I don’t want that to be my story anymore?

Angela Williams  1:17:05
Um, no, I do identify as a survivor. I’ve had a lot of conversations with people who I also use the word victim about myself, though. And I know a lot of people who refuse to use either of those words in relation to themselves. I survived this stuff. If I wasn’t a survivor, I would be dead well, and truly did many, many times over. Sometimes I watched that survivor show. And I think you guys wouldn’t last five minutes in my life, some bits of it. Yeah. Let’s do survivor where you’re just homeless in Sydney instead of on a tropical island. I’m a survivor. Because you’ve got to you’ve got to value the superpowers, don’t you, you’ve got to see the things that are most valuable there. And when you live with a constant risk, like suicide, sometimes the only thing that gets you through is being a survivor. My house is filled with ridiculous craft projects that I did, because I was putting off committing suicide. That’s one of the things I do, I’m like, Well, I will make this stupid thing in my kitchen, I have a little angel made out of why you know how you do those string dolls, where you tie them up, and you make the legs and things. I made it out of really horrible why I where I must have stabbed myself dozens of times. And it’s got these little beaded wings with string. And I made that doll about 20 years ago instead of committing suicide that day. So I’m a survivor and I’ve got like, evidence of my survival all over my house and my life and my body and things I am I have to celebrate it because I haven’t traditionally had a lot to celebrate. So celebrate the things you can and I know that some people don’t like the term survivor and they don’t like the term victim because it that kind of disempowering element that by saying we’re survivors were giving over some of our power whereas I think being a survivor should be mark of honor. And it should be seen as a mock Ivana, it should be. If you know people who’ve survived bad shit standing or have them, look at them and go you did something that I could never imagine. I like it. I like it. I’m happy. I might get a tattoo that says survivor. I put it next to my feminist killjoy.

Victoria Volk  1:19:31
I just, you know, I just heard a story today, a woman she was an addict for I don’t know how many years and she she had a different perspective of the word survivor and hers was, I didn’t want to be that I didn’t want that to be my story. Like and, and like suffering. And yes, this idea of, let’s get out of the suffering and let’s get into the joy, let’s just work on the joy.

Angela Williams  1:20:02
Absolutely. And that part of it, like people talk about tragedy porn, and trying to avoid just your entire life being a story of tragedy, which is I talk about the tragedy and the bad stuff. But I try to talk about the good stuff as well. And I don’t want being a survivor to be the only thing I’ve done. But I never want to forget that it is something that I’ve done

Victoria Volk  1:20:26
It and it’s, we have both right, in society in our human experience.

Angela Williams  1:20:32
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:20:33
You know, you don’t have to have traumatic physical experiences for something to be or feel traumatic.

Angela Williams  1:20:40
No.

Victoria Volk  1:20:41
To feel like you’re a survivor of something.

Angela Williams  1:20:43
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:20:44
So yeah, I’m just you know, I’m actually going to add that as a question.

Angela Williams  1:20:50
I think that bit where I was talking before about the superpowers. That’s it, like I could celebrate being a survivor, because I can identify the superpowers, I got from what I survived. So, I can celebrate my strength.

Victoria Volk  1:21:04
Yeah, its deeper. It’s going deeper than just this identity.

Angela Williams  1:21:10
Yeah. Well, when I get to talk about surviving, and means I inevitably get to talk about how strong and powerful surviving made me. So, it’s kind of that flip side. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:21:20
Can I ask you another question?

Angela Williams  1:21:22
Yes.

Victoria Volk  1:21:23
This just really just drives me nuts. What are your thoughts when you hear people say that children are resilient?

Angela Williams  1:21:31
Oh, I hate the word resilient. Oh, God. It’s so shaming, I keep hearing it from our politicians here where they’re like, our country has been on fire, then we had some floods. And now we’ve got COVID. They’re like, you just need to be more resilient, because that’s what we’re saying, instead of let’s talk about suicide. Oh, my God, children don’t need to be resilient. No one needs to be resilient, if you are. Resilience should not be our natural state resilience is to stress and yes function. And I don’t know if anyone’s noticed. But when you put kids under stress for too long, their brain chemistry changes. with superpowers and celebrating being survivors. We don’t want our children to have to end up with superpowers and celebrate being survivors. So we’re not going to force our children to be resilient, I firmly believe that every child deserves to have a period of their life where they’re not under stress. I cannot imagine what that would be like. But imagine if you did Imagine if you just woke up every day knowing you were secure and loved, whoa, children don’t need to be resilient. And now when the entire world is falling apart, and were taking bits of their future away from them just because of you know how capitalism treats things like illness. Now is not the time to tell them to be resilient. When we say to these kids, you need to be resilient, we are shifting the responsibility for what the world we’ve made them. We’re saying, Well, now this is your responsibility. You deal with all the crap we left you just be resilient. It’ll be fine. No, I hate the word resilient. Yes, yes. Our Prime Minister keeps saying our kids don’t need to be anxious. We’re looking after things. He says that about climate change, we’re going to get we’re gonna hit our climate targets by pretending we hit and 10 years ago, we’re just making up these climate credits. And he’s saying to the teenagers, just don’t be anxious. Okay. He took a lump of coal into parliament and hugged it on the floor of the Parliament. And he’s saying to the teenagers, don’t be anxious. Yeah, it’s an insult. It’s awful. Teenagers rise up rebel burners all tell us to piss off and make the world in your own way.

Victoria Volk  1:23:46
With your creativity.

Angela Williams  1:23:49
Exactly.

Victoria Volk  1:23:52
No, and I think it came up not that long ago on another podcast episode I did where it just it. I just I’ve heard it so much lately, especially with Kobo and everything. And it’s just so resilient. They bounce back. I mean, I’ve heard that as I heard that around me, like in my personal experience, what I went through, and it’s like, kids that you’re saying that about did not choose to be resilient? No, no, why not something they chose with you. You catch yourself saying that they’re resilient, that that child is resilient. You’re there in an experience that they did not choose?

Angela Williams  1:24:29
Yep, yep. Yeah. And nobody needs to says or yell or be resilient when I grow up. They want to be right. They don’t want to be resilient. Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:24:42
Yeah. Um, I love this episode. I love this. Very rich. Where can people find you?

Angela Williams  1:24:51
They can find me on Facebook. If you search for my group, Deboning power podcast. You can find me there. I even share myself sometimes. Yeah, I also have my podcasts which is deboning power. And that seems to be pretty much everywhere where you can get podcasts you can find that one. Yeah, yeah, I’m not gonna give people my address because this is the internet. Well, links my book you can get anywhere. It’s in audiobook form. The performer who does made a remarkable impersonation of me. She’s excellent. It’s also available in ebook and in beautiful, sexy paper form. And they will send it to you in America on ada booktopia. Or, what’s the other one that’s got sold on Amazon. So, it might be it might be on Amazon. But booktopia ships internationally I think or the Book Depository one of those too.

Victoria Volk  1:25:51
Send me a link. I will put it in the show notes. Anything else you’d like to share?

Angela Williams  1:25:55
My final thoughts. Love yourself. Love yourself. Give yourself the love that other people could give you even if you are loved by everyone in your world. Still love yourself. But if you’ve got no one and nothing, give yourself love. Because that’s it is that is that?

Victoria Volk  1:26:18
I heard when as a kid, I think my dad would always say this. Something about if you think I’m this? If you want a helping hand, look to the end of your own arm.

Angela Williams  1:26:33
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Hmm. I like that. I like that.

Victoria Volk  1:26:41
You were your own hero.

Angela Williams  1:26:43
Yes, we all can be

Victoria Volk  1:26:46
We all can be. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Angela Williams  1:26:49
Oh, thank you, thank you.

Victoria Volk  1:26:53
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

 

Ep 36 | The Evolution & Ripples of Hope & Grief

Takeaways & Reflections | The Evolution & Ripples of Hope & Grief

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

In this episode, I dig more into the topic of faith and spirituality that Lizzy and I touched on in her episode.  Communication and support were a huge influence on her grief, whereas, I share how my experienced differed, despite both of us having the exact same losses which occurred in the same order, too.

From Margo’s episode, I talk about how hope greatly influences our outlook. Also, because it hasn’t been talked about a whole lot yet on the podcast, I wanted to talk more about grief in the workplace that Margo and I discussed in her episode. With Covid-19, there is plenty of grief in the workplace. I describe various reasons why our personal grief impacts the workplace as well – plus more!

Resources:

Thank you for joining me today on another episode of grieving voices. Today is Episode 36 takeaways and reflections from Episode 34, with Lizzy Flavin and Episode 35, with Margot folks. And Lizzy’s episode was about the loss of her father, and how that shaped her life and her faith. Maybe even deep interfaith, I can’t speak for her. But that’s the takeaway of mine that I got. She had also lost her uncle and her grandmother. And we had a very similar experience in that way. losing our grandmothers than our fathers, and then an uncle. And so she reminded me a lot of myself, actually, you know, in that it wasn’t? Well, it was quite a long time ago that I was in my early 20s. In some ways it feels like just yesterday, but another as it’s like that was three lifetimes away or ago, three lifetimes ago.

But yes, Lizzie is 22ish. And she lost her dad when she was 12. Also to colon cancer, as I lost my father, when I was eight. And so we talked a lot about what that experience gave her in terms of. So we talked a lot about faith in her episode. Faith was a huge part of her life growing up and a big thing that her father instilled was as an important thing in their family. And she felt like she needed to continue his legacy and has found her own path and is still walking that path, of course. But it’s led her to seek answers for herself. And one of the ways that she has been diving into faith is how different we can experience faith, how many different experiences there are of faith and the separateness that exists in the world when it comes to faith. It just made me think of as I was hearing her talk during her episode, it’s this thought of even when I was a kid and all my life, I would just say can’t we all just get along? Like can’t we all just look at one another as human beings, because that’s what we are. It doesn’t matter where we’re from, the languages we speak, who our God is, who we believe our God is, what the color of our skin. You know, we’re human, we’re just all human. And if we all felt the exact same way about everything, there would be no use for humanity. We might as well all be robots. And so it’s in this difference. I feel that there is an opportunity to see inclusion. there is opportunity to see difference with respect. And no, Lizzy’s exploring why those differences in faith in particular exist. She’s actually going to school for religious studies. So I’m very interested to see where that path takes or over the years.

Independence Versus Dependence

Another thought that came to my mind, in talking with her and after and after, when I edited her episode was this idea of independence versus dependence. And, you know, when we’re children, we rely heavily on others, for our security and for safety, and the essentials of life, really, food, clothing, shelter. But there’s also those needs that often go unmet, that aren’t really considered. And I mean, kids don’t come with a baniel. Oh, if they did, but they don’t. So there’s emotional and spiritual needs as well. And we come into this world and into a home where there are certain beliefs about everything. And I can have an identical twin, and we can be separated at birth. And we can, although we come from the same womb, it is the home in which we are raised that will determine because we, there is a possibility.

And I do believe this wholeheartedly, that our past does not have to determine our future, although in so many cases it does. So with that being said, you can have two identical siblings who grow up into different homes and experience lives that are completely different. And it’s based on the beliefs that helped shape them in the homes in which they are raised. I’ve even said that to my one of my kids not long ago. You know, even though even the political party in which most people say they are a part of is that because you were raised in a home that believed those things? Or is it because you’ve found your way on your own, and challenge those beliefs that you were raised with and forged your own path, and your own thoughts and your own beliefs and your own feelings? Because so often, I think we just accept what has been taught to us, whether it’s grief, or whether it’s how we deal with grief, or whether it’s about religion, or political views, or our views of wealthy people, that’s a perfect example to have, you know, we can grow up in a home, where it’s, there’s a lot of lack, and, or there’s a lack mindset. You can even have a family that’s I mean by, by all accounts on paper, should be doing pretty well but are up to their eyeballs in debt and might even have gambling issues, or you know, these other aspects of life, or grief, that infiltrate every other area of their lives, like addiction does or like grief does. And that has a direct relationship to your money, probably how much you have, how you view it, how you spend it, how you save it, and who you give it to? And how you hold on to it as well, of course.

And so what grief recovery has done for me personally has helped me to see what thoughts and beliefs were mine and which ones weren’t. Which ones were those that were passed on to me that I learned no longer served me. This has been greatly true in the case of money. You know, people might say money doesn’t grow on trees or which it doesn’t, I assume that’s not a lie. But you know, wealthy people are just arrogant and evil people, you know, and money is evil. And money is the root of all evil, which is a very common belief that’s often passed down. And so people that really take that on, as their belief, live that out in their lives. And if they believe that money is the root of all evil, they likely have a problem holding on to it. This is the perfect analogy for grief, because what we believe about grief, and our faith is directly mirrored back to us and reflected in our lives. And how we process grief, or our faith, and how we look to our faith, whether we have it at all, whether we have group, whether we have faith at all. And I didn’t for many years, unlike Lizzy, I didn’t have that.

A Conversation of Faith & Spirituality

There wasn’t the conversation, first of all, you know, we stopped going to church. And I had to go to get confirmed. That was pretty much the only reason why I went to confirmation class, although I never went to church, I went to confirmation class, so I could get confirmed, because that’s what you did. But I wasn’t a practicing church goer. And to be honest, I wasn’t living in integrity with myself, because I blamed God for my life circumstances, and what happened when you know the loss of my father. And that was the last place I wanted to be. And so every time I had to go to confirmation class, and I had to listen to these things that I didn’t really fully believe. That was living up in out of integrity with myself. And it took me probably it took me another eight years, before I would kind of come back or before I’d come back around to the idea of faith and religion, or anything of the sort. But I came back around because I, I really desired to understand, I desired to understand where that disbelief came from. I just I really needed to go within and figure that out for myself. And then discover what was true for me, what I resonated with, and how I wanted that to be a part of my life moving forward. And so unlike Lizzie, I had I did, I did that on my own. But she had, thankfully for her.

And if you’re listening, I hope for you to a support system that has open conversation about issues like this, that has open communication about faith. But the interesting thing that I shared with Lizzy and we got to talking about was spirituality, and how I view spirituality a little differently than I do faith. And spirituality to me is this deeper connection that takes your faith even further. It embodies the sin without believing. And yeah, I think just makes the whole experience of faith and more deeper in our process. And spirituality means different things to different people. I do feel like spirit. Like the spirit within me is in the likeness of God. I feel like we all are a spark of the Divine. And because I do believe that we are all made in his likeness of pure love and light And it is grief, my friends that easily easily dims that light. And we tend to. Yeah. I think the darkness and the gray kind of overpowers the light until we reach out until we put our hand out and we cry out for help. Whether that be spiritually, whether that be faithfully whether that be emotionally or mentally to someone who can support us, and to guide us, and to reflect back to us what we can’t see from with inside the jar. Right?

So one of the greatest lessons, I think, in the conversation from what Lizzy and I talked about is, is that you follow the follow the nuggets of interest in faith and spirituality wherever they lead you. Ask deeper questions. Don’t be afraid of being wrong, either. I think we just are so conditioned to find the right answer, do the right thing. And who makes those rules? what’s right. And I think the only truth about that it’s what’s right for you at the time, and that will evolve and that will grow and that will change over time with your grief with your faith with your spirituality. We are an evolutionary process. So I hope you check out Lizzy’s episode, Episode 34 never a fatherless daughter. It was a wonderful conversation. I love to bring lots of different perspectives of loss. I believe she was the first younger guests that I’ve had. So I really enjoyed our conversation and I hope you check it out.

Losing a Son to Brain Cancer

The next episode I like to share in this takeaways and reflections episode it was with Margo folks who in her episode lessons from my beloved son Jimmy, she had lost her son in 2014 to brain cancer after his battle. After he battled it for eight years. I feel like we covered so many good topics around grief, you know, as a loss, as a parent, but also in her work that she does as a consultant for corporations and companies to bring more grief education and awareness to the workplace. And we talked a lot about that she has a website called find your harbor. And it’s also salt waters, the name and she got the name from a quote that reads the cure for anything is saltwater, sweat, tears or the sea. And I just think that’s so beautiful. And that’s true. We can go out in nature by the water and and feel this connection to the earth and I don’t know there’s a rhythm to the ocean, you know, it goes in and comes out. The tie goes in and goes out and if fell in love with the beach when my husband and I went to Hawaii, which feels like forever ago. But I fell in love with the with the ocean when we were there. But I absolutely love going to lakes and just sitting by the lake. You know, having a cabin out in the woods and being by water is just soothing tears actually have a chemical within them. That is it releases a chemical that is good for us. It is cathartic and sweat. Of course when we move our bodies and we sweat releases endorphins, it releases these feel good chemicals that help us to feel better.

And so yeah, the cure for anything is saltwater, right sweat tears or the sea. I just can’t imagine what that loss is like, and I don’t pretend to know, and I will hopefully never know. But I can’t imagine the grief that her son may have felt too, even though she said how hopeful he always was. And it was his hope that helped them hold on to their hope. And that was such a gift that he gave them when we’re younger. We have this spirit about us. Maybe that isn’t a kind of fades over time as we go through life. It’s that young, spirited thing. It’s this energy that we have in our youth that kind of often fades with life’s challenges and life struggles and if your life was otherwise wonderful experience up until a diagnosis of something like this lady that her son had had perhaps that’s why he had the hope he had. But obviously that’s what kept him alive for so long to his hope and the determination of his loving parents.

And just speaking with Margo. She talked a lot about the research and the investigating that she did on our own time to in support of the doctors in Jimmy’s health care team to make sure that he had the best possible chance of something that may work. I just really enjoyed my conversation with Margo. What I also found interesting too, around Margo’s loss was that and she really described this well was the fact that she really hadn’t experienced a loss even remotely close to a young person in her life, much less obviously, as close as her son, but you know, everyone in her life was living up to or into their hundreds. And so I think when you’re you, when you’re blessed with that sort of experience of grief of this, this long life that you have to look forward to, that you think is, this is just how it is like, this is how my experience will be, you know, I imagine it was felt like a train that hit her, when she realized this would not be the case for her son. How traumatic that thought alone, I’m sure was just.

Workplace Grief & Communication in Workplace

So much wisdom in Margot’s episode. And in talking about workplace grief kind of comes back to the conversation I brought up with Lizzy and that our beliefs shape, how we view grief and our experiences. And we carry all kinds of beliefs. As I mentioned, you know even about money, but beliefs about our nation or state or community, our workplaces or lifestyles, faith and faith leaders, political systems, economy, healthcare systems, and even about the goodness of humankind, beliefs about COVID-19 and the government response. And like I mentioned wealthy people, and you know that we have to work hard for money and you know, versus money as a neutral resource. It’s neither good nor bad. And all of these have been challenged, obviously, to through COVID-19, and even beliefs about other ethnicities. It’s, you know, the social bias. And it is all these beliefs that we have that shape our lives. And it’s on the job, it’s in the community, it’s on the news, and it’s at home. You know, there’s something called to the sandwich generation, you know, it’s the people that are homeschooling and working and caring for an aging parent. There’s the boomerang generation that’s makes up 29%. of third 25 to 34 year old live with their parents in a 2012 article, that was only in 2012. Now imagine with COVID, that numbers probably much, much higher. So it there’s a lot of grief out there, and a lot of workplace grief because we bring our grief and our lives to the workplace.

And so your co workers grief is your grief because it impacts you to. Our grief creates ripples in our lives. Every area it touches in our lives. I know this to be true. I believe it with 100% of every fiber of my being. Your grief is impacting every area and facet of your life. You don’t connect the dots. But it’s the truth. How your body reacts to it, how it manifests in your body, how it manifests in your life. If you are shopping, gambling, going to the bar every other night, you know picking up a guy or a chick or just really feel unsettled and who you are. It’s this restlessness, this irritability, maybe even anger this low grade anger. We can’t function at 100% of who we are at our core, we much less knowing who we are at our core when we have all this emotional stuff weighing us down. A 2002 grief index study that was conducted by the grief recovery Institute Educational Foundation measured sources of emotional pain ranging from miscarriages to pet loss and economic impact. And what was found was that hidden grief causes US companies more than $75 billion annually that’s billion with a B as in boy. And current update is reflecting more than 100 billion in productivity increased errors and accidents due to reduced concentration and focus and of which death of a loved one $37.6 billion that is costing our, that costs US companies. Pet loss alone is 2.4 billion death of an acquaintance. 7 billion financial trouble 4.6 billion family crisis 9 billion divorce or marital woes 11 billion Americans mourn the death of 2.4 million loved ones every year. And counselors interviewed more than 25,000 grieving people and almost all said that their job performance was affected. I’d actually given a presentation of grief in the workplace during 2020. Yeah, during 2020 for COVID.

And it just blows my mind how companies are dropping the ball when it comes to grief in the workplace. Think about where you work. If you had a loss of a loved one recently, during COVID, or otherwise, did your manager ensure that someone reached out to you? Does your manager even know who you would feel comfortable being that who you would feel comfortable hearing from? Because here’s the thing, too, we may not feel comfortable with everybody reaching out to us because maybe that relationship doesn’t, isn’t in the place of that emotional exchange, right? This is where communication is so important in the workplace. You know, if you’re close to someone, you have had emotional exchanges of you know, share details of your personal lives, the mere, perhaps the one to reach out to that person and check on them. But sometimes, that person doesn’t want to hear from everybody. And that’s okay. But not saying anything isn’t the right answer either. And that’s where the managers really need to understand their people, they need to have this open conversation and dialogue to understand, you know, as a leader, who is under their wing, as a company, as a team, things like that. I think that’s where a lot of companies are dropping the ball, you know, someone experiences a death, you’re expected to maybe take a week off at the most and then come back and be at your best self like you were before.

Some Of The Things You Can Do To A Griever

And people expect you to behave as you did before, right? And because people are so uncomfortable with grief in general, because we’re all taught these myths that I have an episode on the myths of grief, go back, it’s an earlier episode. We are all taught these things, we are uncomfortable with other people’s grief. So that’s why we don’t bring it up, especially in the workplace. You feel like it’s not appropriate, it’s not your place. But here’s the thing. If no one’s reaching out, think how you would feel and you don’t have to approach them. You can send a card, you can send a thoughtful service, like hello fresh, you know, send them a subscription to so they don’t have to worry, you think about food for the next week. Don’t send flowers, send something practical. Is that a mom? Do they have kids? Because they need help with carpool? Is there? You know, do you have a resource? Do you can you clean their house, I mean, there’s so many things we can do to help those people in our lives that we see every single day. But yet, we’re just afraid, we find ourselves afraid. And again, it comes back to communication among the manager and the team members and ensuring that we’re watching out for one another. Maybe you haven’t taken stock of what your company or your agency provides you as far as support.

But understand that recovery comes by learning to make a series small positive changes and in our attitudes, and then our behaviors. It means getting better not getting healed. It’s an ongoing process. And it comes sooner with positive actions and it comes sooner. Also with appropriate support some ideas for workplace grief is to validate and acknowledge the grief and avoid the myths statements and validate with I can’t imagine that’s what you can say I can’t imagine and identify and name the loss, whether it’s tangible or intangible, and you help name the feelings. They’ll tell you the story, but they want you to hear how it feels. So give them a voice and be a heart with yours. help them make different choices. Now again, if you have that sort of relationship, you know, we don’t want to come in like we’re the expert when we haven’t processed and did any of our own work but let the griever take the lead. But also don’t not say something, you know, because it’s almost the unsaid word that hurts just as much and If you’re the griever, and you find yourself in a situation like this, how is this situation changing your life? specifically? What are the elements of change at hand? Because grief makes us feel like we don’t have a choice to. So identifying where those changes are taking place.

Take 1% Reponsibility

And then what challenges do these changes present? Are there certain areas where you need support? Are you having these feelings of guilt, which so many of us have that we need to wash that phrase from our vocabulary? Because guilt is an intent to do harm. But what are your choices you can feel powerless, but you don’t have to, you can’t change the big picture. But you can take 1% responsibility for how you respond. So look for and brainstorm choices, get creative, evaluate your boundaries, that boundaries are huge when it comes to grief when making even small choices helps you to get some of your power back. And especially in the workplace. They got to ask for what you need. And I have to mention the grief recovery method because it works. We learn in three ways seeing hearing and doing in grief recovery involves storytelling. It’s this meaning making, that so many of us are looking for as Grievers. It gives voice to undelivered communications. It’s systematic, it helps organize our thoughts and our feelings. It’s based on health education theory.

And that’s an action based program. It’s the show me how, you know, people tell you, you know, you should be over your grief by now. But they don’t tell you how, how do you get over it. And then there’s so many people to that will challenge that idea of that you can get over it. And it’s not about getting over. It’s about recovering from the emotional feelings of being incomplete. So that you can create new positive memories without being drugged back into the past. And that doesn’t matter if the person has died. Or if you’re working on a relationship with someone living because many times it is the relationships with the living that also causes the most grief.

much love, victoria

P.S. So I hope you check into this evidence based program that I talked so much about, it changed my life in March of 2019. And it’s continued to change my life ever since in a way that I really can’t even articulate. It’s just opened so many doors for me, because it’s helped me come back home to myself. It’s helped me to drop the backpack of rocks that I had been carrying for so many years, but in all the years in between. It affected every area of my life. And I know it’s affecting yours, that your grief is affecting yours. Even if you don’t want to admit it challenge that belief that your grief is not impacting your life today in all areas. Thank you so much! And journal on that. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

 

 

Ep 35 | Margo Fowkes

Margo Fowkes | Lessons From My Beloved Son, Jimmy

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

In this conversation, Margo shares the lessons she learned from her son, Jimmy, as he battled brain cancer for eight long years.

His cancer took his life at the young age of 21. What is a little different about Margo’s share is that, prior to her son’s death, loved ones close to her who had passed had all lived long lives; close to or in their 100s.

Her own father had passed away, also peacefully, in his home. The loss of her son jolted her beliefs around death and also taught her the importance of having hope to the very end.

Margo also shares some practical things that others did that helped her family get through the years of treatments Jimmy went through and after he died.

We also chat about the importance of grief communication in the workplace, and how, through Covid, it’s even more important to acknowledge the struggles of those with whom we work. Also, to recognize that even happy workplace situations can cause grief, such as promotions.

  • This episode is for you if you’re not sure how to support someone you know who is going through a challenging time.
  • This episode is for you if you want to hear wonderful insight into how, as parents, they communicated and updated Jimmy’s progress with friends/family.
  • This episode is for you if you or your company could use some insight into the topic of grief in your company.
Mentions:
Connect with Margo:

Victoria Volk  00:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Margo Fowkes. And she is the president of on target consulting, where it’s an organization that helps leaders create a more compassionate culture by speaking openly about grief and loss in the workplace. Also, after the death of her son, Jimmy in 2014, Margo created saltwater, a blog, an online community that provides a safe harbor for those who are grieving the death of someone dear to them. Thank you for being here. Margo. We’ve connected online socially, prior to today. And and so I’m meeting for the first time virtually.

Margo Fowkes  00:43
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. As I shared with you offline, I so enjoyed listening to my friend, David Bartley, get into his conversation with you. And so it was, it was thrilling when you said that you wanted me to come on the show like this?

Victoria Volk  00:59
Absolutely. He recommended you and a friend of David’s is a friend of mine. So happy to have you. So, let’s begin, then, what brought you to doing the consulting work on target consulting, in the work that you do, which I absolutely love, by the way, because I actually gave a presentation to my employer. It’s a international company that I work for corporate, and you know, it was just about grief, because actually COVID and all of this, you know, everything that everyone’s experiencing, and it got good feedback. So I really love that you provide this service for for leaders and places of employment. So how did you tell me the story of how you found out how that work found you, I suppose.

Margo Fowkes  01:52
So, I actually started my consulting back in the 90s, right after my son Jimmy was born. And I did it because I didn’t want to go back to work full time. And I wanted the flexibility of being able to work from home, my husband runs sales organizations, or run sales for organizations. And so he travels a ton. And I wanted something where it was flexible and local. So, I started off consulting to government, because I had come out of government. Right when I had Jimmy, and I didn’t like it, I just found that I was doing these projects. And it was hard to get the person who would hire me sometimes to move on the work that I was doing, it was a lot of marketing and business development kind of work. And so I took some time off when my daughter was born in 1997. And I was really struggling with what to do. And a friend of mine said, you know, you really love the consulting part of it. It’s the clients, you need to switch what you’re like the content of what you’re providing, and who you’re providing it to. She said what you really love doing. And what you’re really focused on is creating a positive environment in a workplace. And she said, So, work on that, consult on that speak on that. So, I started with one topic, which was how to be more positive in the workplace. And then over time, clients would ask me to do other things. So I started doing strategic planning, I started working with boards of directors, I started doing some executive coaching and it just kind of expanded as I went. And one piece of my practice has always been around working with companies who’ve done layoffs and helping them rebuild the team after the layoff because before I went, went into government work, I had worked for unisys Corporation, which was a big mainframe company at the time. And I had been through three layoffs with them. And the first one took our little office of 75 people in Sacramento, down to 50 in one day, and it was incredibly traumatic. And of course, it was far worse for the 25 people who’d lost their jobs. But what I learned through that was that it’s really traumatic for the people who stay to because you feel guilty that you still have a job these people are gone you’re picking up extra work and and the company at the time wasn’t very good at providing any sort of support around that it was like okay, well you have jobs now there’s extra work let’s all get back to work and and the idea was you sort of like you know, you’re supposed to pick up your spirits and, and go on. And so when I started doing the consulting work, I got hired to come in and work with teams who were in the situation that I had been in, and I didn’t use the language of grief and loss at the time, because I hadn’t been through my own losses yet. But I found that when I went back to the consulting after my son passed away, that I really saw that connection that this was a perfect Found lost even though someone hadn’t died. And then once COVID hit all of a sudden now there was much more talk about that in the workplace. And so employers and CEOs and senior leaders were much more open to looking at it through that lens, which is a big shift. But an important one, because as you mentioned, you know, with doing your presentation, there’s so much loss in the workplace that happens, even when it’s when it’s happy things like your manager that you love gets promoted and gets a great new job. But all of a sudden, now you have a new manager. And even if you like that person, you’re still missing the person who’s been promoted. And so, there’s just there’s all those Now granted, that’s not something where you need someone to come in, necessarily and coach you through that you work through it on your own. But I just have found that there’s so much intersection between those two worlds in a way that I never saw until after in until after my son died.

Victoria Volk  06:00
Well, I think that’s where the communication piece is huge. And organizations, you know, as far as well, this is what’s happening, you know, to make it a community experience, where you can talk openly about it right and share openly about it like, you can not like the person that’s maybe taking that position, or you can like them, it doesn’t matter either way, like you said, there’ll be grief about you know, especially if you love that previous manager. So, I love that that work. found its way to you and like how it evolved over time. And I just think there’s so much need for it, so much need.

Margo Fowkes  06:45
Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s I was at my college reunion a couple years ago, and I was connected with someone that I had grown up with and then gone to college with and he was sharing that his sister had passed away of an overdose. And he said, you know, everyone in my work environment, new people sent cards, you know, people reached out, they’re very supportive. But he said, I went back to work, and nobody said anything to me about it. And I have found that that’s actually not uncommon that people and it isn’t through bad intentions, people think, Okay, well, Victoria is back, and I send a card, and she knows that I care and that I’m really sad. But I don’t want to bring it up at work, you know, because maybe she’s not thinking about it right now. And I don’t want to throw her off, or what if she cries and we’re in a meeting and I don’t know how to handle that. And so it there’s this kind of cone of silence that goes around people who are grieving at work and and they need that opportunity, oftentimes to talk to, to talk about it and have it acknowledged, and it may not be with everyone, they absolutely not, but they need at least one person that they can go to when they’re having a hard time and talk about it. And I think a lot of times again, it’s you know, managers and leaders don’t always understand that it is in fact that in one way, that’s simple. And so, the tendency is to just is to stay out of it to just feel like you know, it’s just a landmine, I’m just not going to bring it up. And I might say to her occasionally, you know, are you okay? Victoria, like Is everything all right? But I’m not really going to go there because it’s just too It’s too scary. And I don’t want to do the wrong thing.

Victoria Volk  08:27
Right? It’s a personal problem where like you said, they’re afraid to say the wrong thing. Or, you know, what I find too, is that so often people, you know, you’re given this timeline of time off, when you, someone close to you, it’s like, four days a week, at the most. It’s like, okay, you’re back to work, let’s let’s start cracking, you know, get back to the way it was, you know, and so that’s where that culture, I think of not saying anything, when people come back to work after a loss. You know, because that person, that’s how society has trained us to be so then you presume there must be okay, I’m not going to bring it up. Yeah, it just creates the just the lack of communication and this indifference to it really just feeds into all the myths that we talk about in grief recovery, you know, grieve alone is a big one. And that’s what many people do. I just I love that you do bring this education piece to the to the workplace. Like I said, I think it’s so needed, especially COVID, like during COVID. Now, how has that changed for employers who maybe have an employee that has lost someone like for me personally, like I work remotely. My whole department actually works remotely. We always have. And so you know, I had a colleague lose a loved one recently, it was her mother. You I sent a card and but it’s it’s, it’s really hard now during COVID, when you’re quarantined when so many companies have moved to remote, you know, operating their business remotely? How do you create? Can I ask this, that you have a recommendation for this? Like how managers can handle that, like how they can bring more community to someone who’s maybe have a loss, when we’re all over zoom? Right?

 

Margo Fowkes  10:30

Right. Exactly. Oh, it’s so much more complicated, because you can’t check in in that same sort of informal way, right? You can’t, like wander by and stick your head in and say, hey, Victoria, you know, how are you doing today? And, and or, or you can’t see somebody in a hallway and think she looks sure eyes are red. I wonder if she’s doing all right, maybe I am. And get that prompting, right, we’re on zoom, we have our little boxes, you know, particularly if it’s a team meeting, and there’s 30 of us, you know, all on the call, it’s hard to tell if I look down, am I taking a note? Am I checking my phone and actually not really paying attention? Or am I upset by something, and it’s really difficult to tell. And I think you said the magic word earlier, which is it’s about communication. It’s about checking in more. And I think in this case, if you’re talking about someone who’s had a had a death, that it’s finding the person in the organization that grieving person is closest to or most comfortable with, and having that person check in along with the manager more frequently. Because one of the things I’ve heard is that sort of the flip side of the knot checking in not asking how people are not offering to adjust a workload or help out in some way. The flip side that people have said is, you know, you meaning me, need to temper what you say about the checking in because I might not want Joe to check in, I might not like him that much. And so it really has taught me to say it needs to be people that that other that the person who’s grieving wants to connect with, it’s not a blanket, let’s have everybody check in and make sure that this person is okay. You might send a note you know, or an email, which is fine, or send a card, whatever. But when it comes to a like a, you know, a face to face or a phone call, it needs to be somebody who really knows that person, well, where the person is comfortable saying, Yeah, I’m really struggling. And I need some, maybe I need some help, you know, they might actually need to maybe see someone to talk about it. But they also might need to really have their workload adjusted, right, like being on the phone might be really difficult. And they don’t know how to tell their manager, look, I can’t make sales calls right now. Because then the fear is, of course that the manager is going to say, well, then you’re not really doing your job, where they probably wouldn’t, they would probably say, Okay, well, let’s have you work on the proposals. And we’ll ask someone else to pick up the workload on the phone calls for a while until you’re able to get back on the phone. So I think it’s just about checking in much more frequently, and probably in multiple ways. So that it’s it’s not always the phone call. Because you can’t have that informal checking in it’s it might be texting and emailing as well. And again, it’s the manager and the and then this this additional point person who should just do it pretty regularly right now, because it is more isolating. I think we’re all struggling more in general. And for someone who’s also had a death COVID has just made everything so much more painful and so much more difficult because of how isolated we all are.

Victoria Volk  13:47
And I want to highlight too one thing is that the relationship, that I like that you brought that up that it can’t just be anybody and don’t make it like a blanket check in because it should be someone that probably has an understanding of that relationship as well. Because one thing that we take for granted sometimes or we make the assumption that, well, if you know, she, this person lost their mother, well, they must be really close, it must have been a really loving relationship, which is not always the case. It could have been a very tumultuous relationship. They may not have spoken in five years. We don’t know that right? Usually, we don’t know that. So the importance of it being someone close to that person who maybe unders has an understanding of the relationship is one thing too that I just want to bring up that should probably be taken into consideration as well. I think we say the wrong thing.

Margo Fowkes  14:45
Exactly. And as you just brought up and know really well his context is so important, because you also get those losses where it’s, you know, an ex-husband, for example, or an ex wife, and people think well, they’re divorced. Right. I mean, I’m sure they’re sad, but it’s not that big a deal. But it’s there can be so much more to that relationship. It’s it, whether whether it was completely contentious, and they were both very happy, you know, or it was the right choice for them to split up, or whether they’re, you know, one party didn’t want the divorce, and the other one did, or whether they just couldn’t really live together, but they remain close friends, there’s so much nuance there. And, again, I’ve just learned so much over the years about the fact that context is all important. It did it really you cannot make a judgement based on the late the box that the loss fits in, you need to know a lot more, because it can be a devastating loss that on paper looks like it wouldn’t be a cousin, for example, passes away and we think oh, distant cousin, like, I’m sure they’re sad. But how close could they be? In my case, my one of my cousins is like the sisters that I didn’t have. And so, you know, it really does vary.

Victoria Volk  16:01
Exactly. And that’s what we talk about in grief recovery, because every relationship is unique, because we’re all individuals, right? So exactly the same loss in one family, everyone’s experience is going to be different, everyone’s perception of the relationship is different, therefore, how they perceive that loss will be different as well. So exactly why we kind of hash that all out and brought that hot highlighted that because in the workplace, it’s huge right now. So, thank you for your contribution to humanity in that way. So, you did speak of that you got into this work, before you even had any losses, and then kind of COVID. And you mentioned the loss of your cousin. What? Take us back to the beginning, like what what have been your losses, this is the whole premise of you being my guest is that you share your grieving voice. So, what is your grieving story?

Margo Fowkes  16:57
So, my first significant loss was actually my cousin Seymour, who was like a second father to me. And his wife, Barbara is my father’s niece. So, my parents and Barbara and Seymour were best friends. And Seymour died in 2002 at the age of 82. And so again, this is where context is everything right? You look at that from the outside, and you think, well, at two, he had a long, full life. But at the time, my father was 101. And so it was devastating to me to lose see more because he was healthy and vibrant. And he developed what we think with some kind of like an occult cancer, they were never able to diagnose it. But he declined fairly quickly over a short period of time. And so, it was a loss that we didn’t really see coming, given the context of my family. And so it was devastating to lose him for me. But again, there’s that you know, what you get when you lose someone that age is you get a lot of, well, they had a long full life and so I did I you know, my son was really devastated because he really loved Seymour a lot. And so I tried to do the whole stiff upper lip thing, right? And and nobody better and it was like, okay, but you know, we had a long, full life, Jimmy would say, Yeah, but Papa is 101. And so he got the fact that this was, you know, we were hoping for a lot longer for his birth, this received more. But at the same time, there was the kind of like, intellectual part of me that just kept saying to myself, that this is what happens. He’s older, you know, you need to just like Buck up and be sad, but kind of, you know, move through it. And then the following year, my dad passed at the age of 102 and a half, as sad as I was, in that case, it’s hard to I, you know, I don’t even know if argue is the right word, but kind of argue for more time. I don’t know who you’d argue with, but the universe, I guess, because he lived this amazing life. He was 60 when I was born, so I to have him for that long to have him see me get married to know both of my children. It was it was just, it was hard to argue with in a way. And so, I was sad. But at the same time, I was so incredibly grateful to have had him for so many years. And so that, you know, that was my early experience to loss and it really in a way, unintentionally sort of set me up, which is the idea that you live to this kind of ripe old age. And then like in my dad’s case, he passed away at home, barely peacefully. And and I thought well, okay, well so that’s how it works, right? It’s like, I just was incredibly naive when I look back on it because I had not had experience with out of order loss Bay. Basically, at that point, and then three years after my dad died, my oldest son, Jimmy was diagnosed with brain cancer in 2006. And at the time, he his prognosis was good, we thought we would be able to just have the tumor removed, he would go through radiation and chemotherapy for a year, and then everything would be fine. And, unfortunately, that was not the case, because the cancer came back. And he eventually did pass away. And that was the that was the loss that really threw me into that whole world of grief, because of course, it was my son, it was so out of order. He was 21. And, you know, I don’t it’s not to say that you can be prepared for this, as you know, it’s like the loss knocks you sideways no matter what. But I think in my case, because of my prior experience with loss, I was more naive than most about the way loss can affect people. And I’ve since learned from doing this work, of course, that it’s so much more prevalent than I realized in so many unfair ways. But at the time, when Jimmy was diagnosed, I just had no idea.

Victoria Volk  21:14
My mama heart goes out to you, I have not experienced a loss of a child, I cannot even fathom what that does to my mother’s heart, other’s heart. So how did that change the work that you did? Or that you were doing at the time? And how much time did you get off? You know, like, I suppose you’re working for yourself, though, too?

Margo Fowkes  21:38
I was. And it was, it was interesting to watch kind of the dance, if you will, that my husband and I did relative to work, we were blessed to find out that we work well, we always thought we worked pretty well as a couple, both as parents and just in general as a good team. But it was really amazing to sort of stand outside and watch how well we work together with respect to Jimmy’s diagnosis and his eight-year cancer journey. So, when he was first diagnosed, I was we were both working. And my husband decided that he was in between jobs, he works for startups. So it’s not uncommon for him to leave one when it’s either sold or goes public. And then he’ll usually take a few months off, and then he’ll start the next gig. So, he was just about to take a new job when Jimmy was diagnosed with cancer. So he turned that job down and just said, You know, I don’t want to go back to work right now. Because my work involves travel. And I do not want to be gone, I want to be able to be home so that if he doesn’t feel well at school, he can call him call me I can go pick him up, you know, so he decided he took, I think he took the full year off that Jimmy was in treatment, and I continued to work. And then we had one year of 92 scans every three months where we thought Jimmy was cured and was going to be fine. And so he went back to work, I continued to work. And then in 2008, when Jimmy’s cancer came back, we decided that Dan would continue to work and that I would step away from my consulting practice, because the thing with Jimmy’s kind of brain cancer is there are 300 Kids diagnosed with it every year. And of those kids, I’m not sure the exact number that statistically they expect to survive it. But it’s it’s somewhere between 60 and 80%, depending on whether the cancer has metastasized or not. So, you can think about how small the numbers are for the kids whose cancer come back. So, the treatment options are much more experimental in the sense of they don’t have huge populations to try out these different protocols. And so, there’s the doctors do their very best to stay up on all this stuff. But it is an overwhelming task to kind of figure out what’s happening all over the country, even all over the world in research and clinical trials when you’re dealing with such a small population. And so, I started working with Jimmy’s doctor who we adore, doing extra research and reaching out to doctors and bringing him information sometimes because of the if it was a smaller trial, he might, you know, not necessarily either have the bandwidth to contact the lead doctor on it or even sometimes know about it just because there was so much information available. And so, I did that during the time that the next six years as Jimmy was dealing with his recurrences. And then after he passed away in 2014, coming back from his celebration of life, my mom got sick and over the next year, her health declined and then she died the year. After Jimmy did, so I wound up again staying not working during that year that she was sick. And I don’t know that I could have any way. I mean, I wasn’t really in much condition to try to put my consulting face on and, you know, go do work. I can’t imagine that I would have worked anyway. But then after mom died, I was the trustee for her estate. And so that took about a year and a half to resolve, you know, to go through just a lifetime of stuff. I mean, she she passed away in the house I grew up in also. So, I mean, my parents had everything from the time they first got married. And so it was an enormous amount of stuff and paper to go through, too. And it wasn’t until I emerged from that, that I thought, Okay, I think I might be ready to start working again. And it was around the time I launched salt water. And I went, and I relaunched my consulting practice around the same time, basically.

Victoria Volk  26:02
When you could finally breathe, right?

Margo Fowkes  26:06
Yeah, exactly.

Victoria Volk  26:07
I’m curious how you helped your son navigate the grief he had around his diagnosis. I mean, eight years, that’s a long time to have like this. Yeah, to deal with this diagnosis. How? How does parent even help a child navigate that? The grief that they have? Did he you know, I’m just really curious about that.

Margo Fowkes  26:33
You know, Jimmy had this amazing, hopeful attitude, where he just always went into things thinking, well, tomorrow will be better. And so like, I remember asking him once on a long walk, because we used to walk a lot just to get an exercise. And also, because it was a, there was something like, it reminded me of when parents talk about being in the car with their child, and all of a sudden, the child will start talking about something, I’m sure you’ve had this experience, as if somehow being contained in those walls of the car, it’s safe to tell mom about whatever the thing is. And so, we would take long walks together. And I asked him once about his scans, and whether or not he worried about his quarterly MRIs. And he said, no, he said, I don’t think about it until I’m doing the scan. And he said, and then I think about it a little bit until we meet with Dr. Nicholson later that day or the next day. But he said, even if the news is bad, he said, I know that you and Dr. Nicholson and dad will figure out what the next best thing to do is, and then we start that, and then I don’t think about it again until the next one comes up. And that’s just basically how he navigated those years. And I know that I spent nights thinking about the things that were lost in terms of his balance and his and his hearing and his cognitive abilities, he slowed down because of all the treatment more towards the end, because of all, you know, of all the radiation and chemotherapy it had, he had this beautiful ability to focus on what was left and, and really find joy in that. And if he spent periods of time mourning what was last, he didn’t really share that. And it wasn’t until the very, very end where he started talking to a social worker, where he expressed any interest in really wanting to see someone to kind of work through what he was going through. So he I mean, I it sounds crazy in one way that this you know, 1315 1820 year old kid carried us but, you know, we’ve we fed off of his hope as much as he fed off of ours. So, he is yeah, it was amazing to watch him navigate it.

Victoria Volk  28:51
I think even just in grief in general, grief, terminal diagnosis, if we don’t have hope, what do we have? So that is the greatest lesson to that. I think young people, they’re more able to live in the present moment than us adults. You know, we’re all up in our heads all the time. But a beautiful gift that he gave you.

Margo Fowkes  29:14
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Victoria Volk  29:18
So, in the loss of your mother then happened. So, during that time, what are some things that you found helpful to you? Because I actually I don’t know that I’ve had anyone on the podcast yet who has been through a similar situation of a, you know, long diagnosis like that of a loved one. What are some things that you found helpful to you during that time, or unhelpful that people would say to you?

Margo Fowkes  29:48
So helpful first, the biggest thing was meals. And I got really good advice from a dear friend of mine, who’s a very long-term survivor of metastatic Breast cancer. It when Jimmy was first came home from the hospital, and we were facing six weeks of daily radiation, and then nine rounds of chemotherapy. She said to me, I know you and I know that people are going to offer to help. And you’re going to say, No, I’m good. I’ve got this. And she said, You need to just shut up and say thank you. And she said, you’re going to want you’re going to want the help. And sure enough, my closest friend in Portland, where we lived, Kristen, Kristen said, look, I’m going to organize meals for you. And my initial instinct was to say, No, we’re fine, we’ll go to radiation, we’ll come home, I’ll make dinner. Oh, my gosh, what a blessing she organized meals for us starting it started every day, and people were bringing us food as if we were a family of 12 instead of a family of four. And so we switched it up to every other day. And it was just a godsend, because we’d get home around five or 530, from radiation after Jimmy Bennett school all day. And there would be food waiting on the front porch for us. And it was so incredibly helpful. And so yeah, one big piece of advice that I always give people who are who are dealing with, you know, a cancer diagnosis cancer treatment situation, or even after a loss is it food is just a godsend, so that you don’t have to spend time in the kitchen, preparing it, whether it’s just for your family, or for people who are coming to the house to either be with you and the person who’s in treatment or after a loss. It’s incredibly helpful. I would say that was the biggest thing. And then the other thing that was incredibly helpful was with our daughter, Molly, who’s four and a half years younger than Jimmy, our goal was always to keep her life as normal as we possibly could. And so she was aware, of course of what was happening at an kind of an age appropriate level. But we wanted to be sure she could still go to soccer practice and softball practice and spend time with her friends. And so having someone help with carpool was really helpful. And and having places like my friend, Kristen’s daughter on Elisa is my daughter’s best friend. And, you know, knowing that I could call Kristen at a time and say, can you have Molly over? Jimmy’s really not feeling well, you know, can we get her out of the house? That kind of help is also invaluable? Because this it’s so difficult to, to think in advance about the siblings when you’re in the middle of this. And it’s it was like, you know, Kristen is like Molly’s second mother. And so it was such a beautiful partnership in a way that know that there was this other dear friend who loved my daughter, like I do, who just would would pick up the slack would get her places would have her in the house. Molly was like, you know, her fourth child. So that was really helpful as well.

Victoria Volk  32:55
And that is the gift of friendship, right?

Margo Fowkes  32:57
Absolutely.

Victoria Volk  32:59
You know, friends are there, thick and thin. And that just brings tears to my eyes, because it’s what a gift, you know, people in our lives that, you know, you don’t realize until you need them. Right?

Margo Fowkes  33:14
Exactly, exactly. Well, and that’s with something that when people ask me about it, you know, when we meaning people who want to support someone who’s grieving, I always say go back to the simplest things. It’s food. It’s carpooling. If you’re close enough, and the person feels comfortable trusting your child, you know, with you. I remember right after No, I’m sorry, Jimmy was dying. And we had people coming through the house. And after some relatives left, they left us with this with our counter just covered with dishes and newspapers and my friend and came over to walk our dog, which again, another thing that was hugely helpful, because he’s cooped up in the house all day with us. And so, she would drive over and get him and take him for a long walk. And she walked in the house, and she looked the kitchen counter, and she knew we had more people coming in that afternoon to stay with us. And she said, I’m gonna clean your counter. And I said, no, no, the dog really needs a walk it, please, that’s more important. I’d love you for offering but you know, I’ll get to it later. And she said, Okay, so I heard her leave with the dog. And I went back into Jimmy’s room where he was with my husband. And I came out like an hour and a half later, and the dog was back in and had cleaned the counter. And I have never forgotten that because it was that the beauty of like seeing what needed to be done. And knowing that sure, I could do it, but that would be 30 minutes away from my son. And so she just cleaned it for me. And it’s just it was amazing. And so that’s why it’s like people I think sometimes are looking for like the more complicated answer to how I can be supportive and it’s that it’s cleaner counters, walk the dog mobile Wanna make a meal? And just do it just just show up and do it? Because if you’d asked me well, even then and did say, I’ll do this for you, and I said, No, it’s fine, I got it. Right. And that’s and is actually the same friend who told me when Jimmy was first diagnosed to just take the meals, except the help, and don’t try to do at all.

Victoria Volk  35:21
And that it’s just the logistics, right of being a mom, the logistics, like everyday stuff that, you know, the to do list never ends, there’s always going to be something on the to do list. And so someone can lift that burden of the to do list. It is your right, it’s the simplest thing. Exactly. take the initiative and remove those duties, so you can actually be present with your loved one. Right? Right. What was the best piece of advice you ever received, then after? after he passed and with your mom, and you know, after you could kind of breathe and reflect like, what are? What were some of your greatest takeaways?

Margo Fowkes  36:08
So, I have a couple answers to that, I think the best piece of advice that I got was to keep writing. Because when Jimmy was diagnosed, I didn’t set up a caringbridge page for him, like a lot of people do, I would send out email updates. And I would I tried to have the email updates match Jimmy’s outlook. So in other words, I would convey the truth of what was happening at any given time. But they were always hopeful, there was always you know, even as we got closer and closer to the end, there was always you know, another treatment to try another option, more life left to be lived kind of thing. And I don’t mean that in a sort of Pollyanna way. Like it wasn’t that, but it was it was just Jimmy’s outlook. And that’s what I was trying to capture. And so, I did a fair amount of writing through those. And there were several people who said, don’t stop writing. And I did for a while because it was just too hard. But then I picked it back up again. And so, when a friend of mine suggested that I start writing about child loss, that’s how saltwater came to be as because she said, you know, we The world needs your voice basically, to write about this. And, and that’s I think, because I had done that writing and I had had people say to me, even though I hadn’t actually taken the advice to keep writing during those first couple years, it was always in the back of my head so that when that friend said, you need to start writing again, you need to start writing about child loss that I was I was ready, if you will, to do it. And so it was it was really good, because I don’t know that I would have had the ability to see the impact of what I was writing if people hadn’t told me about it. And so, I don’t know that I would have had the idea to to create saltwater had somebody not said that.

Victoria Volk  38:07
Wonderful. That’s the ripples, the ripples.

Margo Fowkes  38:11
Exactly. And then your other question about kind of what I would tell other people, one would be to write because I do think that whether you write to share it or you write on your own, I do think it’s really, really powerful for people. But I also know that not everyone, you know, not everyone likes to write. And for some people, it just it isn’t appealing to them, it feels more like homework or, you know, something that they just don’t want to do. But the other the other piece of advice that I have, if you will, is that I think in when Jimmy first died, what I wanted most was to connect with other parents who’ve lost children. Because I was so devastated and so guilty as a parent for not protecting my child, even though intellectually Of course, I knew I couldn’t stop Jimmy’s brain cancer. But there’s this like, feeling and so I think as parents, that we should protect our children no matter what. And so, I had guilt. I mean, I had I was, you know, I had moments of anger where you know, the whole Why, why did this happen to us. And the thing that was the most comforting was to connect with other parents. And initially What I wanted was parents who were kind of in the same state that I was in, you know, where the loss was fairly recent, and they were fairly raw. But what I learned was that it was so helpful to connect with people that were farther down the path than I was, because even though I didn’t really want hope or think that I wanted hope. At the beginning, it was so helpful to talk to somebody who who was 10 years past the death of their child and realize that that I could find a way to keep living and to make a life in the aftermath of Jimmy’s death. So, I think it’s really important to have not just the people that are walking with you on that grief journey, and they’re in kind of the same place, but to have people that are up ahead of you, to you who are shining a light and saying, Yeah, you will climb out of this pit, that you will find a way forward even without your son.

Victoria Volk  40:18
And that’s the hope, right? Hope bringers in our lives.

Margo Fowkes  40:22
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I was just gonna say, and frankly, I mean, who else are you going to believe than somebody who’s actually done it? Right? I mean, people around you will say, it will get better, you know, that kind of thing. And it’s hard to believe them, you need somebody who’s actually who’s has found a way to do that.

Victoria Volk  40:43
And that’s with any loss. That’s with any loss that we experience in life. But I want to just highlight to when you talked about finding someone that’s maybe maybe further out from their loss, and they’ve, presumably have turned a leaf in their grief, I suppose. I just want to bring up that sometimes, you know, the support groups, and we talked about this prior to recording, but we talked about, like support groups in general, you know, we look for that similar loss, where we can sometimes then to get stuck in our story. And so, if we’re in a group of people who are all stuck in their story, there’s no progress, there’s no action, there’s no, where’s the hope then, right? If one is just coming week, after week, after week, and sharing the story, because we often don’t want to talk about how we feel. And that’s where I want to bring up when you talked about writing, many people don’t want to get into writing. And just because they might not be a big writer, but for many people. What happens when we free flow, right? We get a little bit deeper than just our thoughts, we get out of our thoughts, and we get into our heart. For many people. That’s why writing feels icky. Right? You don’t want to do it, because that’s painful to tap into our hearts and but it’s also therapeutic.

Margo Fowkes  42:08
Right, exactly. Well, and I think that I mean, I think that’s really true. And I think about like my mom, for example, she and I had I don’t know exactly what the right word is because contentious is too strong, way too strong. But we bickered more than we do ever had in the final couple of years of her life. And she had a rare blood disorder called poly cytopenia, which led to her her different kinds of blood counts, or platelets, or red blood cells and or white blood cells spiking. And so for years, it was controlled first, by just drawing a drawing blood periodically to just lower her counts that way, then she was on a very, very low dose of chemotherapy. But over time, what happens with polysafe emia is eventually the body just can’t process all this extra blood. And it goes into the spleen, and I think into other organs. And eventually that’s, you know, that’s what took her life. But what I didn’t realize at the time, and I don’t know if she did either, was that I think when you think about those counts going up, well, of course, it would have effect on your mood, right? It would affect your brain. And it was the first period of time in our relationship where she was just more cranky about things. And my reaction was not to think well I wonder what’s going on with her because of course, I was dealing with the grief of the death of my son was and and Jimmy’s final years, and then his death. So my my reaction was just to get cranky back. And I carried a ton of guilt about that. The fact that we, you know, had that kind of back and forth. And it wasn’t like we weren’t in contact or we weren’t close. But it would sometimes mar the visits that we’d have, you know, some kind of an argument about something stupid, they weren’t even about big issues that we would be arguing about. And so it took me a long time to start writing better to your point. Because to write in a real sort of way, I had to go into those feelings of guilt and regret. And I’m still working my way through that because I do feel really sadly about sad about that. And part of me knows standing outside of it, I was doing the best I could. And there’s another part of me that just thinks God if you had chest stopped to like, ask a question or drawn that extra breath are counted to 10 you know, could you had less little, you know, kerfuffles about things, but I do, but to your point. So I think that’s both the end and the Yang of the writing, right? It’s on the one hand, it’s what keeps you from doing it sometimes. But it also it does help you kind of work your way through it and see that, you know, you’re human, and you know, we’re humans doing the best we can in any given moment.

Victoria Volk  44:57
And often the hardest thing to do is to forgive ourselves.

Margo Fowkes  45:00
Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah, exactly. If you told me the story, I would be incredibly sympathetic and say, Well, of course, you didn’t have the bandwidth to ask her why she was crying. It’s but it’s much harder for me to say that to myself.

Victoria Volk  45:14
Well, and you were deep in your own grief, like you said. And so, we don’t. I mean, grieve alone, it impacts us our capacity to concentrate to focus to process information. And so, if we’re emotionally, I can get into the talk about energy, and the energy behind thoughts and feelings, and all of that, which I love to talk about energy. But, you know, you probably had a lot of blocked energy, whatever, relate, you know, because regardless of the relationship, we have things that are incomplete for us, within context of relationships, emotionally incomplete, you know, and what is grief, it’s, it’s a change of, or, you know, in a familiar pattern of behavior and loss of hopes, dreams, expectations, and anything we wish would have been different, better or more. So, if you think about that, that is a definition of grief. Like that’s a lot. You can think of a lot you can fill pages of feelings around those things. So yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s really hard to forgive ourselves often.

Margo Fowkes  46:20
Yeah, well, there’s another piece to that too, which is the myth of time. Because in the case of my mom, my mom was 92, her mother lived to be 102, and a half, my father lived to be 102 and a half. And my mother, who’s 20 years older than my father thought, well, she was going to live to be the same age, and so did I. And so as we were having these disagreements, which weren’t normal for us to be bickering in that way, I know that there, my thought was, okay, this is just what’s happening right now. And I knew that I wasn’t as patient as normal, because I was, you know, because I was dealing with with the loss of Jimmy, but I had the idea of like, I get through this period, I’d start to feel a little bit better. I’d get more patient, we get through this right. And then she passed with, and that’s just life, but it’s, but we do often. Do you hear that a lot. People think well, I thought I had more time.

Victoria Volk  47:20
And that’s a myth for sure. Yes, after someone passes, too, it’s like, oh, in time, you’ll get better. You’ll feel better. Okay, well, time just passes, right? So, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would love to share?

Margo Fowkes  47:39
I don’t think so. I feel your questions were so good. And I feel like we we really covered a lot of ground in a short period of time. So no, I really enjoyed our conversation.

Victoria Volk  47:50
I did too. I did have another thought. But it had escaped me. So, shucks, maybe if I think I’ll, I’ll ask you in an email, and then you can respond, and I can put it in the show notes. But absolutely. I feel like, yeah, you know, I have a note here, I’m just gonna say this, because you know, this misconception of is in your in your form that you filled out prior to recording, you talked about how there’s no greater gift than someone asking you to tell them about Jimmy and sharing a memory of him, especially if you hadn’t heard it before, or saying his name. So that made me think of this misconception that we tend to have too is that well don’t mention the deceased loved one. Because, you know, it’ll make the griever upset, it’ll make them upset, or, like you said, like, context matters. And so instead, maybe ask the griever about their loved one, their favorite memory, like you said, or a lesson you learn from them, and saying their name. So, it’s just opening up the lines of communication. But you can do it in a way that’s loving and caring and helps you to reflect as a griever. And think of a happy moment, a loving moment that you had with your loved one. Do you have anything to add on that? Because that was that was something that you mentioned. And I just thought that’s kind of important. I would just want to mention that at the end here.

Margo Fowkes  49:18
Yeah, I guess a couple of thoughts on that. One is I think that as Grievers, we can really help ourselves by letting the people around us know how much we want to hear our loved one’s name, and here are the stories. And part of that is us talking about that person bringing up their name and maybe talking about a fond memory that we have of when we were together with that other person that we’re talking to because I think sometimes people need permission if you will, to bring up something like that. But the other thing I learned too, was that you don’t have to know the person who’s died to bring up their name and the best way I can illustrate that is with a quick story. So my daughter played softball in college. And we traveled with the team, not with the team, but we traveled to watch her play. And I got to know one of the one of the moms of an older player on the team, the mom’s name is Carrie. And we were we would spend time together; we’d sit together at the Games oftentimes and watch. And then one time we were in the airport together and Molly’s bio mentioned, Jimmy, and I knew that people on the team probably knew that he that she’d had an older brother who died of cancer. But Carrie, and I had never really I don’t think talked about Jimmy. And we were sitting in the airport this one time by ourselves. And she was telling me a little bit about her about one of her children who had some health challenges. And then she said to me, I, I’d really love to know about Jimmy about who he was and what he liked, what he was like as and she said, but I don’t know if it’s okay to ask about that. I started to cry, it makes me cry. Now I started to cry. And then the poor thing is thinking, oh, no, like, I’ve done something really horrible. And I said, no, Carrie, I said, I just I’m so overcome, I cannot tell you what a gift it is to have you asked me that. And I realized, like you were saying that there’s always a way in. So that you can ask, even if you don’t know the person who’s passed away, to still give the other the person who’s grieving an invitation to talk about them, that you don’t have to know anything about them. And so it was really lovely, I had an opportunity to tell her what my son was like, and to have her feel free that she could ask questions about, you know, what made him laugh or what he was interested in, or what he loved to do. And it was I’ve just never forgotten it. Because it was such a gift not just in the moment, but also it really taught me the power of doing that with someone else. And saying, tell me about your loved one.

Victoria Volk  51:56
I’m not going to I’m going to kind of put you on the spot. How about you tell us about Jim?

Margo Fowkes  52:02
So, Jimmy, oh my gosh, Jimmy was just an amazing kid. He was. He was so quick to laugh. He had a great sense of humor. And he came out like this, this little Buddha like character, in that he was just so mellow from the time that he was born, he was the kid at parent toddler, when we would separate from the kids for like 40 minutes for a little bit of parent education. And the kids would go out on the playground with, like, with four of the moms and the other. I don’t know, 10 of us who were in the class got, you know, 40 minutes of time with the teacher away from our kids, as all the other kids are sobbing and clinging to their parent their mother’s leg. My kid was the one who was like, okay, mom, Thea, and he would just head out to the playground. And he that that was him. I mean, he was just he was this little Independent Spirit. He had a great sense of humor, he loved to laugh, and I and I still oftentimes I can hear that laugh as he was, you know, be sitting in the living room, watching an Adam Sandler movie, or The Big Lebowski or something that he thought was funny. He just was really present, wherever he was. And so he he was, if he was talking to somebody, you had his full attention, which was just such a gift, whether it was you know, his mom or or someone that he’d met, he used to say, which is one of my favorite expressions, he used to say that he was a Type B in a type a family. Mom and Dad, we are all very type A and Jimmy was far more mellow than, than the rest of us. But the funny thing is, is that what that type B personality often hid, was that that kid was so stubborn. And so he when he didn’t want to do something, it was so hard to get him to do the thing, whether it was homework, or it was, you know, exercise. If he didn’t want to do it, it was practically impossible sometimes to convince him to do it. Which is funny because I think people who, who didn’t have to parent him oftentimes were surprised that I would say that because they wouldn’t see that stubbornness in him.

Victoria Volk  54:27
Thank you for sharing that.

Margo Fowkes  54:29
Yeah, well, thank you for asking.

Victoria Volk  54:31
Anything else you’d like to add? Thanks so much for sharing today for being able for sharing your wisdom around the work that you do with consulting and just a lot of practical things that we covered today, too. So, thank you for that information for my listeners. If people want to connect with you, where can they find you?

Margo Fowkes  54:54
The easiest way to find me is to go to findyourharbor.com Which is salt waters website and the links to my social media are on there. And if they want to know more about the work that I do on grief and loss in the workplace through my consulting practice, it’s on target consulting.net. And there’s a page on there on grief in the workplace.

Victoria Volk  55:19
Can you share a little bit about the name came to be?

Margo Fowkes  55:23
Absolutely. So, the name comes from an Isaac Dennison quote, the cure for anything is salt, water, sweat, tears, or the sea. And a friend of mine, when she saw that suggested that I call the website salt water, and that I organized the blog posts into those three categories. And the minute she said it, I thought, Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. And we also came up with the tagline of find your harbor or find your safe harbor at the same time. So, it was one of those magical moments where you think Okay, that’s it, you just sort of No, this is this is the right thing to call it and the right way to organize it.

Victoria Volk  55:59
Love that. I think intuitive friends is amazing, right?

Margo Fowkes  56:03
Yes. Back to us with exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Victoria Volk  56:08
I’m all about intuition. Yes. Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing where saltwater takes you, and insulting and the work that you’re doing. And so just thank you again, for being here.

Margo Fowkes  56:23
Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for weaving in the consulting too. Because I think, you know, just like your experience in the workplace. I think when I first relaunched on target and started salt water, I thought of them as being very, very separate. And part of that is because salt water is is free from any sort of solicitation. I don’t I don’t ask for money, you know, there’s no, there are no ads on the site. And so part of it was I wanted to keep them separate that way. But it was actually really lovely to watch saltwater, my work with saltwater inform my consulting. And to see that the connection between the two because I hadn’t since I didn’t have to go back to work after Jimmy died. And my husband took some time off as well. I didn’t think as much about the way grief and loss shows up in the workplace. And so I think it’s really important to talk about I think COVID has actually one of the silver linings, if you will, of COVID is that it has broken US Open more to understanding why we have to talk about grief and loss in the workplace. But we still have a long ways to go. And I think, yeah, and I and I think it’s really important to talk about because so many clients that I talked to, when we’re working on something like this, they they so badly want to be supportive, and they have no idea because there’s no training out there for this. They’re just they’re going on Raw instinct and like you talked about with the myths, right? There’s the myth of like, you don’t mention the person’s name, you don’t upset the person maybe you know, it’s been six months, maybe they’re over it or healed or you know, whatever other terminology people use. So, I think it’s a lot of it is about empowering people to just know that it’s okay to bring it up. Even if you don’t know what to do that you just to talk about it and figure out the best way to be supportive.

Victoria Volk  58:08
Well, and as a leader in an organization, it’s about informing yourself. It’s about seeking new knowledge and new otherwise, we resort to what we’ve been taught. And as children, we’re often taught to grieve alone to replace the loss all these different myths of grief that we talked about grief recovery. So yeah, it is very important to change that narrative so that with education, that’s when the tides really turn, right?

Margo Fowkes  58:33
Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, I appreciate you bringing that up because they, I think they are woven together. And sometimes people don’t always see that weaving.

Victoria Volk  58:43
Well, thank you again.

Margo Fowkes  58:45
Yeah, thank you. It was lovely to talk to you.

Victoria Volk  58:48
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 34 | Lizzy Flavin

Lizzy Flavin | Never Fatherless

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Lizzy and I share a similar loss experience. So much so, we both experienced the death of a grandmother, father, then uncle – in the same order.

We have a conversation about how those losses have shaped and shown up in her life, from her perspective of being in her early 20’s. Also, being only ten years past the death of her father, she shares what’s helped her throughout her youth.

The conversation also turns to spirituality and faith. Lizzy shares grief that she feels around the separateness that exists within faith communities. And, she shares how she’s working to study and contribute to a greater conversation around the topic.

If you’re a teen, into your 20s, or a parent of a teen/youth, I encourage you to listen to Lizzy’s perspective of the loss of her father when she was 12, as well as the other losses she experienced before that and since that loss as well.

Mentions:

Connect with Lizzy:

Need help?
Suicide Prevention Lifeline to chat or call the Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or reach out to Victoria

Victoria Volk  00:00
Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Lizzy. And she reached out to me to be on the podcast, and we kind of have a similar story of loss. It was my grandmother, and my father and the uncle as well. And Lizzy shares that experience as well. So, she’s going to speak to it from her perspective as a 20 something, right? Correct. We’ll also dive into her faith and how that’s been shaped by those losses. Thank you for being here.

Lizzy Flavin  00:39
Yes, thank you, Victoria, for having me here. Lizzy, I’m 21 years old, and I grew up in Arizona. Yeah. And I’m really excited to be here today and get to talk with you.

Victoria Volk  00:48
When we spoke briefly, before we started to record you had mentioned that you lost your grandmother when you’re seven. Was that your first significant loss?

Lizzy Flavin  00:57
Yes, it was. I think at that point in my life, I think maybe I’d lost a pet or something. I maybe been to a funeral for someone I didn’t know. But it was the first time I really experienced someone that I knew and cared about being gone. And it was hard because I hadn’t had a very close relationship with her. She lived far away to another state, but I didn’t get to see her much while she I don’t think I ever got to visit her actually while she was sick. And so that was really hard for me not really getting to say goodbye even though I was so young and didn’t fully understand or have like the depth of relationship that I would have if she stayed alive later into my life. It was definitely hard to find out that she was gone without really having gotten to see her and say goodbye.

Victoria Volk  01:49
And then your your father was he, was, I know he passed away of cancer. Was it colon cancer?

Lizzy Flavin  01:57
Yes.

Victoria Volk  01:58
Same cancer as my dad had. I’m curious. How long had he known? Like when was he diagnosed?

Lizzy Flavin  02:05
Yeah, so my dad was diagnosed with colon cancer when I was 11. And he was sick for about 10 months. And at the beginning, at least from my perspective, it seemed like it was going to be a pretty quick surgery and then he was going to be done with it. It’s kind of how my parents had explained it to me. And I think even then, that was their understanding, but there just continued to be complications. And he continued to, you know, get better and worse over time, and then yeah, it was about 10 months later that he passed away.

Victoria Volk  02:38
First of all, my heart goes out to you I know what that loss is like I don’t know what it was like for you. So during that time, because I was a little bit younger my dad it was he was it was two years he had stage four when he was diagnosed and there was really nothing they could do but he lived for two more years and he passed away when I was eight so much of my childhood he was sick. What did you do you recall I mean and that’s still quite a little bit fresh for you because again, you’re 21 I’m much further out from my loss? What has that reef I hate to say the word journey because it’s so overused but what has that been like for you?

Lizzy Flavin  03:20
Um, It’s definitely been a long it’s just changed so much over the years I think initially when my dad passed away it was very hard and intense but I also think I been in my family talks about this a lot that we and I think it’s common with cancer that people kind of start grieving before the person’s even died and so like that process of kind of started maybe a few weeks before for me when I found out there wasn’t really anything what the doctors could do my dad was already in a pretty bad state where he couldn’t really communicate with us much and so that Yeah, there was a season where everything’s kind of blurry looking back honestly, but I do remember times even in that where I was confused about how okay I wasn’t certain moments and I didn’t know if that was right it felt like I should just always be upset but I think maybe the way we’ve been designed in some ways is to have that relief and have a little bit of being able to continue with life even when some time there’s a lot of back and forth with that of like times that I was upset that I didn’t think I should be in timezone I felt calmer than I thought I should be and especially as a child like I didn’t fully know how to process that but my family definitely helped a lot. And then like as I’ve grown past that, obviously like it gets better but it never really goes away and so there’s still times when it really hits me hard, and they don’t know necessarily how to communicate that to other people. But I do spend a lot of time in prayer in those times when it just feels like, you know, I’m not necessarily dealing with the death itself anymore in the same way that I was. But just the fact that I’ve spent my entire teenage years any part of my adult years that I’ve been without a father, and sometimes that really doesn’t feel fair. So, I think those are the moments that it hits me is when I see, oh, that’s a moment when my dad would have been there, and he’s not. And kind of, that’s something I still have to work through from time to time. And I think it gets less and less frequent as time goes on but it still happens.

Victoria Volk  05:45
Yeah, and it will continue. It’s not that I hate to say that, but it just it changes, it just changes over time. You know, you get married, you won’t be there. My family got me a beautiful little locket with my dad’s picture in it. And that’s what I wore for my jewelry. When I got married. It was incredibly special to me. So yeah, it just changes over time. You have kids, grandpa’s not there. The seats always gone at the table. Right? It sounds like to me that communication is actually a really important tool used actually used in your family to navigate that loss and share how you were feeling. What is that? Correct? mean? That’s the kind of sense I get that communication was really utilized during that?

Lizzy Flavin  06:34
Yeah, yes, I definitely agree with that. I think there were times, again, like, it’s always a mixture of like, there were times when I didn’t really feel like our family could communicate well and like be open with each other, just because of the different ways that we were all handling it. But there were also times when I was able to sit down with my mom or with my siblings, and just, yeah, share what we were feeling and know that other people were in the same boat. Even recently, like we’ve been able to have conversations, we try to celebrate or spend time together on certain anniversaries for my dad, like his birthday, the anniversary of the day he died, we’ll just get together and remember him and spend time together and sometimes talk about like where we’re at with it. And I think we probably talk less and less about I don’t know, it’s different every year. And the way it impacts all of us. It’s like continues to grow and change. But I think being able to grieve together and deal with that loss together has been really helpful and really a blessing that I know not everyone has.

Victoria Volk  07:43
Like I didn’t. So yeah, that is wonderful. Because I think when we’re able to communicate with how we’re feeling honestly and openly that brings healing, and then you’re healing as a unit as a family during that time to worry, even before your dad got sick. And even maybe when your grandmother passed, as your family always been very strong in faith.

Lizzy Flavin  08:07
Yes. So yeah, my we’ve always gone to church together as a family. I mean, we did growing up, of course now, I’m the youngest of four. So, all my siblings are adults, and they all kind of are still involved in different churches. But yeah, it’s always been an important part of our lives. It was definitely something that we talked about around like my grandmother’s death. And then something that, yeah, it’s really important to my parents, and they always taught us to like read our Bibles and brought God into important conversations. And that was really impactful to me, especially like thinking of my dad’s legacy, like continuing to walk in the faith that he helps me to establish

Victoria Volk  08:48
After he passed, how did that change? If at all?

Lizzy Flavin  08:51
It’s interesting, I guess, to me, like, trying to think through that, because I think when my dad was sick, there was a lot of conversations among my family, and especially with our friends about like, prayer for healing, which was definitely, yeah, it just brought up a lot of questions for me, when, you know, he wasn’t healed. And a lot of people we knew had, like so much confidence that he would be, but I remember, you know, my parents said, like, we trust God, or my mother actually talks about a conversation she had where someone asked her like, why don’t you or I think she was telling us about someone else actually, now that I think about it, but someone had said, like, why aren’t you trusting God to heal this person? And she’s a non trusting guide, whether he heals this person or not, and I think like that was her attitude toward my dad’s illness. And I’ve tried to take on that attitude to and it’s definitely a challenge sometimes even looking back like I said, and sometimes I just asked God like, Why Why can’t I have a dad in my life anymore? Like, this is really hard, but I do really believe Believe that he’s worked through that. And they think like, after losing my dad, that was something specifically that I had to work through. But I also, I knew that I really needed God, and that I wasn’t going to be able to deal with such a huge loss without my faith and without a relationship with God. Continuing and yeah, I really came to rely on God even more through my dad’s illness. And then after he passed away, and just looking to God, like I said, I look to him for emotional support, as I’m dealing with grief. And I look to him for, you know, with my questions and with Yeah, sometimes things that I would have looked to my dad for, because he was such an important source of like, someone I could ask questions to, and someone I could turn to you and I got anxious, and, you know, as you know, feel protected by in different situations. And so I’ve transferred A lot of it over to God. And it’s definitely different. Because God’s not like a physical person in my life. But it he’s also, yeah, I’ve just learned that, like God is ever present with me. And that’s something my dad never could have promised. And I think that’s really special. And it’s really helped grow my faith, even though it’s been difficult.

Victoria Volk  11:18
I’m interested in hearing your side or your perspective, because when I was a kid, I believe in granted, I was eight, no, even less than 12, you probably maybe know differently. But when I was eight, my dad passed away, went to the funeral is in the ground. And I thought, that’s what happens. When you die, you just go into the ground. And we did go to church, but granted those aids and big concepts, you can’t really grass, necessarily at that age. But I guess how did that when I’m thinking about my experience, and how that loss really took us out of the church, like, I blamed God, right? Like, as you’re taught, like, like you just said, and my mom had this firm belief, like, omega, he’ll be fine. They’ll do what they can. And when she realized that that’s not the case that he will die. She was devastated and crushed, and really didn’t know how to cope with that. So we fell out of the church. And that was the case for me until I was in my cell, I was probably till I was like, 23, my life was kind of a did a nosedive. Until back to, to life on faith again. So I can speak to that side of it, when you don’t have when you lose face. When you come back to it. I love that growing up that was still a part of your grieving process that that was something that was made valuable and important, and a part of healing. Because I know for a lot of people, when someone they love dies, they want someone to blame, right? You want and who is the easiest of ln is God, you know, because you’re supposed to heal people, you know. And so yeah, I struggled with a lot of those emotions, but I didn’t have the language, I didn’t have open communication like you did. And so I was a wonderful blessing that I just want to reflect back to you. Because I really think that whether you realize it now or not, that does and has an impact on the decisions that you make in your life and the choices you make. So, for anyone listening, it’s it’s there is no like linear path to losing your faith and finding your way back to it again. But often it’s, you know, it’s going to be take pen and scribble and doodle. And it’s that’s that’s what it looks like. It’s not a straight A to B point A to point B. So as you’ve been navigating this loss of your father, as it’s changed over time, and as you’ve gotten older, I know you had mentioned to that your uncle had passed away the same way. Is that correct?

Lizzy Flavin  14:09
Yeah, it was very similar. He actually he had a different form of cancer, but it was, yeah, it was very much felt like going back into losing my father in so many ways. Because he was my dad’s brother. He was definitely someone from my dad’s family had stayed very close to her family. After losing my dad. He was an important part of my grief process and had been, you know, really there for our immediate family when that happened, and of course, was also a big loss for him. And then he actually had cancer for about six years, and then passed away in 2019. And so going to visit him and seeing him in hospice care like my dad had been, he was in so my uncle was in home and my father had been enough hospice facility, me passed away. Yeah, just seen him in such a similar state was really kind of brought me back to that earlier loss. And then I think having lost my father and really knowing deeply what that meant, and saying goodbye to him for the last time, was really impactful and really challenging knowing that, like, it was only a matter of time. But I think also, again, having had that loss before and the blessing of a family who I’ve helped me continue our relationship, the Lord and leaning into I, I felt more prepared for another loss like that. And really, and also knowing, I think, even clear as an adult, like where, and just believing that my uncle would be in heaven with God and with my, with my father, because they knew, you know, they’re freaking God, that that’s what Jesus would do for them. And that was really encouraging to me in a really deep wave. And when it hurt that, yeah, that they weren’t just going into the ground. They had a continuation of life, it’s just I didn’t get to be a part of it for a while. Yeah, so I think definitely a challenge, but also something that I was prepared for. And I think in some ways, it’s like seeing someone suffer through illness can be so hard. But I think I’ve been very blessed, in some ways, by the fact that I’ve, you know, none, none of the people in my family that I’ve lost have been sudden, like, I’ve gotten to kind of prepare myself and say goodbye, and yeah, and then know where they’re going afterwards is really, really encouraging to me and has made such a big difference.

Victoria Volk  16:55
It’s really just kind of bizarre how similar stories are, yeah, it’s just really strange. My uncle wasn’t in my life. After my dad passed, he was his brother as well. But when I found out he had brain cancer, I went in, I knocked on his hospital door, not knowing if he would want to even see me or recognize me even because it had been almost 30 years to the day that my dad had passed. And it turned out to be one of the most healing experiences for me to revisit that relationship, to open up my heart to Him again, and when he had been absent. And yeah, I felt a connection to my dad that I had not felt in the 30 years prior. So I’m interested in learning what your experience has been, you know, there’s faith, and then there’s spirituality. I don’t necessarily view them exactly the same. I feel like for me, spirituality is almost more, there’s almost a deeper knowing a deeper connection or a deeper feeling is what it’s evolved for me. So, what role does spirituality play for you? And for your experience?

Lizzy Flavin  18:18
Yeah, that’s interesting. I don’t know.

Victoria Volk  18:20
Like, do you feel you know, when we talk about faith, we talk about God, right? spirituality is, it’s no our guardian angels. It’s like the people that like our guides, like people that are ever present. And all around us, you know, kind of watching over you, your guardian angels, things like that. I guess I it took me a long time to get to that probably only in the last five, six years, to be honest. It’s like faith came first. And then my spirituality came, I guess, where are you sit with that?

Lizzy Flavin  18:58
Yeah, that’s interesting. Um, I got a lot of conversations throughout my journey with loss about Yeah, like people sharing things like, oh, like your dad can see what’s happening or like, like, they’re still with you, in a way. I mean, I think I’m still at a point where that’s kind of confusing to me, like, I don’t know, and even thinking about guardian angels, like, I don’t know, like, you know, whether that’s a person who you’ve lost or someone different that God sent to help you like, I definitely think that’s possible that that’s a way that that exists, but it’s not necessarily something that I’ve, I haven’t quite gotten to the point you’re at. It sounds like because i think i think in some ways, I’m just afraid of being wrong that I’m going to like comfort myself with some idea and then find out later like, no, that’s just something that was in your head or like something sweet that people told you. Yeah, I guess. I don’t know yet. Like whether yeah, it’s just I guess, not something that I’ve really chosen to lean into yet. really focused on for myself.

Victoria Volk  20:02
You might be interested in listening to I’m trying to think what episode number it is. But it’s with Victoria Shaw. And she is my podcast. And she was on recently actually, the episode just went live, I think three or four episodes back, but she is a medium. And she’s also a licensed clinical therapist. But she’s a medium. And we talk a lot about like, just this, really tapping into our, our intuition and our inner knowing. And, but how it’s, it’s, it’s deeper than that it’s this spiritual guidance. So you might be interested in that episode. Again, like I said, like this is not something that I really leaned into myself until maybe five or six years ago. And it really wasn’t until that experience with my uncle, that just really had a profound experience in it for me when it comes to feeling a connection. Feeling that connection to my dad that I had not ever felt, you know. And it was almost like, there’s a thing to like, when I found out he had brain cancer, I could have easily just been like, isn’t been in my life for 30 years, why would I go see him? Why would I want to talk to him, right? But I felt a pull. Like I felt like I had to go see him. Like it was something I had to do. Call it synchronicity, call it serendipity call it spiritual guidance. But when I went there within 10 minutes, my cousin who I hadn’t even remembered meeting before, from Massachusetts, walked through the door. And so did his daughter, who I had not seen either since I was a kid. And so it was like this almost immediate reunion. And it was amazing. It was an amazing experience. So anyway, it’s something to maybe just open your heart to and see where where you’re led.

Lizzy Flavin  21:57
Yeah, if I can add something that came to mind as you were sharing?

Victoria Volk  22:01
Yeah

Lizzy Flavin  22:02
I do think well, like the right time to say, I think the closest I’ve come to that, that sort of experience and those things you’re describing it I would describe my experience with Yeah, sense of like some spiritual guidance and some presence with me would be, I would describe it as like the Holy Spirit’s work, being a Christian and like believing that God is like three persons and one of them is with us as especially like with believers as this spirit inside of us. And I think I’ve definitely received some comfort through that. And some guidance. I think the Holy Spirit has helped me come to like some of the conclusions I have in the piece that I have in regards to death guards to like people I love. And so yeah, I know, that’s not quite the same as what you’re describing. But I think there is some some, like spiritual guidance and some like spiritual presence. It’s so something so beyond the physical that’s really present with me. And again, even that is something that I want to be I don’t feel like I lean on the Holy Spirit, or, like, I want to grow in that even Yeah, so that’s, that’s what came to mind anyway.

Victoria Volk  23:20
No, I and I totally, I, I resonate with that, too. I do. I think for me, it was like, I think to like our while grief for me like, but he pretty much put a veil over my inner knowing, like I I don’t know, I’m asking, I’m actually interested in learning to from you. Do you feel like you’ve grown in a better understanding of who you are and of yourself through this? Or do you feel like you’ve you’re almost like moving further away from yourself, if that makes sense?

Lizzy Flavin  23:55
Yeah, that does make sense. I think the I think there’s probably some of each, there’s definitely been times and I feel kind of detached. And because i think i think grief impacts us so heavily that there’s times when we don’t feel like ourselves. And so that’s been a part of it. But I also i do think overall I have really gotten to know myself better through this and part of it is a certain level of independence that comes when you lose someone that integral to your life. You know, since my dad passed away, I can’t just go to him with my questions and assume that he’s right anymore. I have two processes myself, and I definitely like my mom helps me work through things and other people in my life. But I I think I’ve become a little more independent in the way that I think and the way that I make decisions through not having that person who in my life was really probably my main source of guidance and stability even in some ways and so I’ve really learned more what I think and what I believe and also grow And like, Okay, how do I take care of myself and like, walk through like these difficult seasons? And like walk through not having these people in my life? I think, yeah, it’s all been a journey of getting to know myself and getting to kind of work with myself in ways that I haven’t had to before with each loss that’s come,

Victoria Volk  25:22
Has anything else helped you along the way? Other like, has it just been your faith that you’ve leaned on? I don’t want to say just your faith, because that’s, I mean, it’s huge. But aside from faith, in your prayer life in your family, did you go to counseling? Or were you offered counseling or, you know, any other healing modalities that you’ve found helpful? Or that were a priority? in your life?

Lizzy Flavin  25:51
Initially, after my dad passed away, counseling or like support groups weren’t really, I think, on my family’s radar. So, we did have a lot of family that supported us, but it was definitely Yeah, it was, you know, they weren’t, we didn’t have like professionals really helping us work through it until I think about a year or two after my dad died, we joined a grief support group through Hospice of the valley. So me and my mom and sister, were part of that. And that was so helpful to me to just go to a group once a week and talk with people who had had similar losses, my sister and I were in like a team group. And so it was a lot of people our age who had lost parents, or other family members, close friends. And it was just so helpful to talk with people who understood and who had similar experiences and hear about bears and talk about ours. And just know like, even if we weren’t directly talking about our grief, like these are people who understood and didn’t feel like they had to walk on eggshells around us, but also didn’t, you know, weren’t going to be insensitive to our grief either. And then also our leaders who helped us walk through exercises to kind of process I agree, I think about different ways to heal and still remember to that was really helpful. And then later on, think I was about 14, when I started going to counseling, not specifically for grief, I was dealing with a lot of anxiety at the time and some different issues. And so, I walked into that my first experience with counseling was kind of difficult, I didn’t feel like I felt like it was just a lot of like work. And I didn’t know if it was really helping me. And then my next counselor was really helpful in processing, the other things I was dealing with, but also the loss of my father and how that was impacting me. Yeah, so those are some different tools that I really, really impacted me, I think finding a counselor or therapist who can really help you is so such a blessing and so incredible and helpful.

Victoria Volk  27:56
What did grief look like? on you, as a teenager? Like if someone would have looked at you could they have seen that you were a griever? Like, what, what how did it manifest in your life at that age?

Lizzy Flavin  28:09
As a teenager, there was yeah, I don’t know, how many people knew I started blogging at some point in my teen years, actually, about like grief and living without a father. And that was something that helped me kind of express what I was feeling and kind of worked as, like a public journal. For me, it wasn’t something a lot of people read. But it definitely was a way that I expressed my grief and, you know, post on social media, I think Or another way that I kind of express my grief and just let people know, because I think one of the hardest things for me, especially as a teen was like having to tell people because I was always nervous about their reactions, whether like it would just make them uncomfortable, or whether they’d be overly sympathetic or not sympathetic enough. And so I think like getting it out on social media and being like, like, no, this I don’t have to tell you in person, but also getting to share like what he had meant to me. I don’t really know if someone you know, could have looked at me and seen like grief, just in everyday life. But I think there were situations coming up to like all the time where we I know where the question would come up, or where yeah, just different things. What impacted me in a unique way because of my grief. And there’s always this question of like, do I invite people into this with me and like, share this or do I let people have very experienced and try to kind of hold back and deal with this on my own and so sometimes I would, I turn to my family with that and sometimes it was literally just me kind of taking some time aside to be like, Okay, this, you know, whether it’s Father’s Day or a conversation I have with a roommate about their father or their experience with loss, something that kind of brings back something that’s like So much bigger than where the conversation already was. And I have to either bring that up and face whatever reaction people might have. Or either like bottle that in or step aside and process it on my own.

Victoria Volk  30:15
I’ve learned there are two types of people in life, either internal processors or external processors, nexternal processors, they need to talk it out, they need to talk, talk, talk. And that’s where talk therapy can really help someone who’s an external processor, it’s like they have their awareness and their insights, as they’re talking. They need to talk in order to get those, feel those and have that awareness. But then there’s internal processors, and I’m guessing that you’re an internal processor like me, where we kind of need to go inside ourselves and be alone with our thoughts, the process and just the fact that you started with a blog, I’d actually journaled that’s when I really got into journaling is when I was like, when I was a kid. And I’ve been journaling ever since. But I grew up in the age of dial up internet. We didn’t have there wasn’t social media, there wasn’t really blogs. I didn’t even have internet at home. So you know, it was like at school, very different time that I grew up in. And so I think that’s a huge benefit to someone growing up today, children that name who’s a parent today actually have this huge broad network available to them, which can be good. And it can be bad, because in my line of work as a group recovery specialist, I want to share this with you too, because you said you know, you don’t know who necessarily to share it with is we don’t want to share with just anybody, right? Because they can say hurtful and harmful things that actually make us pull back and isolate even more, because we don’t feel safe to share. And so, we want to look for someone who really doesn’t have any skin in our game. No, I know your family’s a huge connection for you. And that’s, that’s great. But sometimes the relationship is no, not sometimes always. You can have like you and your siblings, your mom, you all experienced the same loss. But your experiences very differently. Your experience is very different, because your relationship is very different. And that was my experience, too. I was the youngest, my siblings were five and nine years older. So, our experiences were very different. So, you can have the same loss and very different experiences within a family unit. So, they might not be necessarily the best people to share with because they are perspective of that person might be very different from yours, because their experience was different. And so that comes to friends and everything, like someone that doesn’t have any skin in your game who you feel safe sharing, and someone who is safe, who has a heart with yours, like we say in grief recovery is someone who’s not going to criticize, analyze, or judge. And so someone who really can just your heart with yours, just listen. Because that’s all people really need to do. Just listen. And your story matters, your experience matters. And that’s why I started this podcast because whether you’re 21 or 41, you’ve had the same type of loss, our experiences are very different. And your perspective that you bring to my listeners matters. Because there might be some 21-year-old, 20 year old, a 15 year old who’s listening to you and hearing your story. And they resonate more with you because you’re closer to their age, I very much remember what 21 felt like I was lost, I was absolutely lost. My grief had me lost for decades. But it doesn’t have to be that way. We all but we all find our way. In our own time. Now, I’m to a place of a goddess. But then we might have another loss that just opens up that can of worms again. You know and for your uncle. That’s what that’s what that loss did my uncle, same thing. It’s like that’s when I realized I wasn’t okay. Like I still haven’t processed a lot. From all those other losses I had before I still had a lot of work to do. And that’s what that loss made me realize I’m not okay. And that’s what led me to grief recovery. And so, it’s an ongoing process. You’re going to have more losses in your life, that’s a guaranteed and because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. It just all stacks up, but so does the healing. The things that we participate in that help us to heal those wounds. Not to, and aid them not to like, to sugarcoat what’s going on. It’s being honest with ourselves. So we’re really feeling. I think that’s, I think we’re out of integrity the most when people ask, you know, how are you feeling, I’m fine, and you’re not fine. And you know, you’re not fine. Like you’re out of integrity with yourself. When you’re out of integrity with yourself, that doesn’t feel good. And so it’s this ongoing suffering that we caused ourselves just by not being honest with how we really feel. And it’s not being apologetic about it, like you don’t have to be sorry that you feel bad. Like, if a situation is too much, it’s walking away gracefully. And saying, I need this time for myself, I need to, we have, you’ll have instances that the rest of your life like that, with age comes wisdom. That’s all I can tell you. Things change, life changes, reach changes. Grief is grief, it just looks different over time, as time just passes, it doesn’t do it. Time doesn’t heal, it just passes. So, what is grief taught you so far?

Lizzy Flavin  36:06
I think we’ve kind of already touched on a lot of the things I was thinking about with what it’s taught me. But I think it’s this interesting mix of like independence and dependence that I’ve kind of learned through the process of like, I had a conversation with someone a few years ago, who had been through a similar loss. And I he said, like, I think everything that you missed from someone you’ve lost is something you have to especially like with losing a parent is something you have to like learn to do yourself and like be more independent. And I think in some ways, that’s true. But also, I think we really do need other people and other support to help us with those things. And times, because yeah, I just don’t think I could continue, or at least like be in the place I’m in, which is, I’m really blessed to be in without the support I’ve had from others, whether it’s, you know, my mom still being one, like stable parent figure in my life, or my brothers kind of stepping in and providing some of that, like sense of safety in certain situations, or helping me seven people throughout my family helping me financially, and to be able to go to college and have the resources I need to be the student that I want to be I really, like I’ve learned that there’s a lot that I can do on my own. And that i i do have the strength to walk through so much grief. And that’s but that’s all with some level of support. Like I can guess I guess, yeah, it’s taught me that, that I need people and also that I am strong as an individual. But then I like, I don’t know, if that makes sense.

Victoria Volk  37:55
Because yeah, it’s like you’re strong as an end of it. You don’t have to be strong for everybody and yourself, you can still like it’s not weak to ask for help. And that’s what I’m glad you brought that up, because that’s a good point to bring across, and how, if someone were to give advice or counsel like that, who has not really dug into their own grief, that’s where they can say something that could really send someone else into deep isolation. Because if you were to take that to heart, right, like, you’re just gonna have to do this on your own, like, you’re gonna have to learn all this stuff on your own, and you really internalize that you would have a really difficult time asking for help you think, well, I guess I’m just on my own. I guess this is how life is, this is what it’s like. Because that person is going to give you advice and their perspective based on their personal experience, right. So, if they have not had the support in their life, if they had not felt like they ask for the support in their life, that’s the perspective they’re bringing to your conversation in what you share. And that’s why I say it’s really important to choose wisely, who you communicate with your grief about. So, thank you for bringing that up. And what has led because you have a podcast, it’s called loving diversity podcast, and I was kind of I was poking around a little bit and it’s about inclusivity that word, inclusiveness? I think so. inclusiveness of, of faith has these experiences of grief and loss is that what shaped you into this mission or this passion for starting this podcast? And tell me a little bit about it?

Lizzy Flavin  39:42
Yeah, so I was actually inspired to well, I guess, going back even farther, and I think for a long time, I’ve been very aware of kind of and just like curious about honestly, the differences, just how the church seems to be kind of divided up into, you know, we have like, and it’s not, it’s not that anyone’s necessarily labeling themselves this way or doing this intentionally necessarily, but we tend to have kind of like, you know, churches that are, for a certain are tend to be filled with a certain demographic, racially or culturally or like economic status wise. And they that’s kind of how we get even as Christians within Christianity, we tend to gather based on other things that we have in common. And as I’ve read scripture and studied church history, I’ve noticed like that’s not how the church started, like the church churches, and like, the house churches that started in the first century, really broke a lot of the barriers that the rest of culture had around socio economic status, and race, and gender, and age and all those things. Like the church was a place that broke that in a unique way, early on, and now I feel like there’s so much division in the church, whether it’s based on different doctrines, or especially Yeah, like socioeconomic status, or race, or just preferences in worship, because that’s something that’s like been on my mind for a long time. And there’s some grief in that of like, why is the church to say like, why can’t we all be one like, group of Christians like God seems to have intended us to be and then in March of last year, with all the dots when I really became aware of issues with racism in America, and really allowed myself to start to process that and see like, Okay, how can like, first of all starting to understand the reality of the situation and grieve the losses that were happening in that time just for this if people you know, not people I knew, and then think about, you know, what’s my part in this? And how can I help to address this and like, help people respect one another and build a better culture, I really started thinking about the church again, quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. Where he said, essentially, that the church is one of them that are the most segregated are 11 o’clock on a Sunday morning, I think is what he said was the most segregated time in America. And that had really struck me hard. And anyway, as I was processing, I was thinking, Okay, how can I address this, like the church’s issues with division, and I started thinking about a podcast because I was like, I want to have conversations with other people. I don’t want to just talk about from my perspective, because that’s not the point. And I don’t even know that much. But what if I could welcome other people in to share their stories into to speak to their own experience, and to speak to what they’ve learned and share their experiences, feeling included from certain are included or excluded from certain church communities? And how could leadership or people around them have avoided that decision and help them feel like a part of something and like they were welcome, just as a part of God’s family rather than having to fit a certain pick fit into a certain category in order to be part of that community?

Victoria Volk  43:23
I love that. I love that idea. What are you studying in college?

Lizzy Flavin  43:27
Biblical studies

Victoria Volk  43:29
Awesome. Okay, well, that, yeah, that follow that passion, wherever it takes you that interest, that curiosity, curiosity is a big thing in life. And I think we don’t ever lose that. That’s something that we kind of just tend to put on the back burner is what makes me curious. Follow that. Follow it. I love that idea. If people want to reach out to you, and they want to learn more, how can they find you?

Lizzy Flavin  43:58
So, I’m on Instagram, you can find me at loving diversity podcast. I also, I don’t use this account as frequently as I used to. But my blog from my grief experience that I was using in high school is never fatherless. And I also have an Instagram account for that. So, if you’re interested in seeing some resources, it may become more active again. But if you want to read more about my story that’s there. And you can feel free to message me through either of those accounts.

Victoria Volk  44:29
Thank you so much for sharing your story, which deeply resonates with me, and I will stay connected with thank you for being here.

Lizzy Flavin  44:37
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s been great having this conversation.

Victoria Volk  44:41
Thank you for listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 33 | Resiliency vs Self-Reliance

Takeaways & Reflections | Resiliency vs Self-Reliance

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Through childhood grief and trauma, we are greatly shaped and influenced by the experiences we go through well into adulthood.

I reflect on Nicky’s episode, where he shares what life was like growing up as a child of artificial insemination and growing up in an LGBTQ home. We talked a lot about personal growth and how growing up surrounded by diversity helped him be accepting of all people.

Sandi’s episode brought up how child sexual trauma can bring about intangible losses such as loss of trust, safety, and trust. Not to mention, a loss of faith.  Together, we also share how Grief Recovery helped both of us address what was emotionally incomplete, as well as explain why our childhood experiences impact our future.

Resources:

Thank you for tuning in to Episode 33, takeaways and reflections resiliency versus self reliance. After conducting more than 20 podcast interviews, many of which have not yet gone live, I’ve connected a few dots. Every guest has had in common the one thing they held on to and that’s hope. In Episode 31 Niki Scorpio shared his grieving voice of what it was like to be an artificial insemination child. He was then raised in an LGBTQ home with his mom and his mom, his partner, his biological father ended up dying of AIDS. Although he didn’t go into that aspect of his story in depth, I can place myself in his shoes. And imagine the confusion that must have added to his already present pain, and how conflicting, those feelings were. The conflicting feelings we feel within the context of relationships as grief. We can love and care about someone. However, if they continually betray our trust, don’t respect our boundaries or manipulative. What we’re left with are the feelings that are opposite of love and care. We may feel betrayal, anger, and resentment. Nikki could have easily felt all these things, not saying he did but the choice others make, particularly in a parental situation directly impact the children. I can say that I wasn’t happy about the decisions that were made after my dad passed. However, as children, we don’t have a choice but to go with the punches.

We find a resiliency and self reliance because we’re forced we’re forced to as children, not because we choose it. Nikki rolled with the punches of his childhood as he grew up in a predominantly poor area of Berkeley, California. His mom worked many jobs, including a school teacher, which love and light to all the fantastic teachers out there! To get them out of that area and into a better neighborhood. Diversity was something Nikki brought up that I gathered was very influential for him from different cuisine, personalities and the things his mom shared about other cultures, and the people they met where they lived, he learned acceptance of all different backgrounds. Perhaps growing up a non traditional way and realizing this as a teenager, helped pave the way and shape his beliefs around diversity as an adult. Nikki has a very open and accepting aura and presence about him, which I appreciated. So much. So I even suggested he looked into becoming a grief recovery specialist. It’s a profession that isn’t for everyone. However, I just got a certain vibe that his pain helps him bring compassion and empathy to others.

The Helping Children with Loss Program

And perhaps I also feel this way because it’s very obvious to me how underserved the LGBTQ community is too. I can also be more comfortable asking for help from someone who has lived a similar experience. That being said as an empath, and empathy being my number one strength and Gallup testing, which I’ll reference in the show notes. If you’re not sure what that is, I’m more than open to working with anyone regardless of their loss. I feel more than comfortable with holding space for and listening to and working with people from all walks of life. Considering they’re more than 40 plus losses, you likely don’t have just one to work through either. That being said I have a soft spot for veterans as I’m a veteran with a family history of veterans. And because I’m big into prevention, the helping children with Loss Program is near and dear to my heart. This program is available in a group format online as well. It’s a four week program where we meet one evening per week, and it is for the adult caregivers and caretakers of children. This program applies to daycare providers, headstart programs, parents, foster parents, adoption agencies, parents adopting school counselors and more.

If you’re interested in learning more about the helping children with Loss Program, there will be a link in the show notes to connect with me. Or you may email me at [email protected]. And the episode Nick mentioned the unlearning he had to go through. As an adult, he began to put together the pieces of his childhood anger. He tied it back to the bullying, the upheaval of having to move to a new school and neighborhood. Despite it being for the best, and realizing that other kids were figuring out his home life different from theirs. Next voice around cancel culture diversity for balance, and curiosity made me feel like he was speaking my language. There has been a massive shift over the past year, we’re seeing how people are exercising their right to share their voice, through movements such as Black Lives Matter. Me too, and with LGBTQ rights as well. In the process, however, there is this cancel culture happening to regardless of the movement or who is up for election, I agree with Nikki that diversity is vital in maintaining a balance.

Confusion and Fear

There is so much injustice in the world and so much sorrow in the news. Must we add to it by squashing the opinions or thoughts of others? I am passionate about grief education. I do have opinions about things shared online about grief that is in truth more harmful than helpful. However, it’s not my place to cancel anyone else opinions out. And I hope to receive the same respect. I may not be your cup of tea and that’s okay. And you may not be ready to do the deep inner work either. And likewise, that is okay. However it is Oh, it always brings sadness to my heart. When I hear that because I know how long I needlessly suffered. I did that to myself. No one else did that to me. And that’s where we all should consider flipping the script. Like my friend Nikki did and my dear friend supporter and mentor Sandy Derby did as well. Sandy shared her traumatic experience of sexual abuse by her father, followed by satanic ritualistic sexual abuse by her uncle, a pastor and his friend, also a pastor. Can you even imagine the confusion and fear you would grow up within that situation? It’s heartbreaking and horrifying. No child should ever have to go through sexual abuse of any nature, much less at the hands of someone who is supposed to be your protector, and also by other family and clergy who use that power, not in the name of God but against him.

The wounds and scarring that Sandy had to unpack our where she and I connected. You see, I had my grief and trauma to deal with and together we were a heart with yours for one another. She was my partner when I got certified in the method as I went through the method myself. She was there for advanced training. Also working through her stuff to going through the process yourself is a requirement to become a specialist. There’s no ifs, ands or buts about it. The greatest lesson I have learned throughout the past seven years of my healing journey is that we heal only to the depths we are ready and willing to go. And as I’ve been willing to go deeper, the healing has also become more transformative and life changing. We get from point A to point B and healing when we’re open to doing the work, fulfillment, joy, an overall happiness will not be yours until as a griever you understand this disk group take time. Yes, absolutely. How much of your life are you willing to put on the backburner though? Moving on is not a disservice to your loved one. Moving on is not dishonoring their memory. Moving on is also not about more stuffing and avoidance. Moving on is about real recovery from the emotions that leave you incomplete and stuck in the past.

As Sandy said in her episode, you can’t run from the past. You can’t run from who you are. The past is always right there with you until you address it. It wasn’t until Sandy had a life altering literal come to Jesus moment. She shared God had spoken to her. She had become a daily meth user for three and a half years. A terrifying domestic situation was the catapult for that God moment that resulted in a transformation story you will have to hear for yourself. Sandy also talks about praying as in grieving. Neither prayer nor God alone can rid us of all of our sorrow. We are co creators with God and we choose with our free will to either move our feet or lie in bed and give up. The point in healing isn’t to dig up the past. There’s nothing to dig up. Like Sandy said in her Episode The past is always there, we can’t run from it. So you can’t dig something up that’s always been there. Guaranteed the feelings you have of being emotionally incomplete with the relationship show up in other areas of your life. Our external lives are a reflection of our internal experience. The more healing one does internally the more joy and fulfillment one experiences in the external or physical reality.

I know this to be true for myself, and I believe Sandy and Nikki would both agree. I’ve said this before, and I’ll repeat it. Grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. Likewise, healing is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively positive. And anything that we do to nurture our spirit healing and overall wellness is a step in a positive direction to whole self living. No one wants to live a subpar life. And the power lies in every one of us to take our life by the horns. However, taking our life by the horns is challenging when the past keeps showing up in a cyclical pattern that blocks progress. I can speak to my experience and how grief changed over the years, and how it showed up in my life. I want to read the caption to a post I shared on social media that shares my experience with how grief changed through the decades. It reads, grief looks like difficulty making decisions, impulsive decisions, and ability to get out of bed. difficulty sleeping, risky behavior, frequent doctoring, trust issues, chronic illness, isolation, loss of faith, I’m fine, and addiction. There are no stages of grief. That’s misinformation. I believe there are phases of it instead in terms of how our lives reflect where we’re at or in our grief.

How Grief Changed Over Time

Grief in my teen years looked a lot like this anger. bringing alcohol, trust issues, lack of deep connection with others, isolation problems with food where I would teeter totter between making myself throw up to eating very little irritable bowel syndrome diagnosis, difficulty getting out of bed, school tardiness, to name a few. Grief for my young adult years book like unhealthy codependency relationships, angry outbursts, lack of self control, alcohol abuse, work tardiness, multiple speeding tickets and fender benders, affection seeking lack of depth, depth and connection with myself and others. In decision approval seeking no faith, life and spiritual practice. I felt like my life was destined for disaster, but I didn’t know how to jump off the train wreck. I sought help which didn’t help. And I lacked someone holding me accountable for my actions and calling me out on my shit. Grief in my 30s manifested very differently. 30 years post the death of my dad. I was doctoring a lot for fibromyalgia like symptoms was dealing with hair loss, bowel issues. I even had colon polyps removed at the age of 32. And migraines, difficulty sleeping, financial issues, self worth issues, menstrual issues, scary postpartum symptoms.

I literally thought I was going crazy. I felt out of my mind, and like my body was waging war against me. Grief in my 40s was where everything changed. My 39th birthday was the start of a turning point. enough was enough. It was a final straw loss the month before my birthday that brought up all of the loss and trauma that occurred before it. I chose to follow my intuition towards something to help me put the past to rest. And so far, I’ve experienced more breakthroughs, growth, spiritual awakening, life purpose and alignment in my life than ever before. There are different types of Grievers out there, that long haulers like me, which aren’t Not to be confused or compared to COVID suffers, and some may have found themselves experiencing the loss of someone close for the first time. The key distinction between the two those that many long haul are great long haul Grievers don’t believe they’ve had grief playing a role in their lives. If you’ve experienced loss and trauma as a kid, I assure you, you have grief that’s followed you into adulthood. That is unless you received helpful mental health support and intervention early on when the experience took place. For many like myself, that doesn’t happen. When you hear that, how is your grief changed over time? How has it transformed and how it shows up in manifestation? Physically and externally.

Addiction & Shame

We have a lot of unlearning to do as adults, as Nicky’s and Sandy’s episodes both beautifully illustrate. The big question is, are you ready to unlearn? And if not, how much time is too much to pass? When it comes to whole body health and wellness, we need to address the physical and mental body in the spiritual and emotional body as well. Addressing only the physical aspect will find you repeating the same behaviors that first led to the physical issues like body image or chronic illness in the first place. Likewise, if we only manage the mental without digging into the emotional. Logic will win over the heart every time. It’s likely why you keep saying no to programs like grief recovery, that could be the transformative answer you’ve been searching for too. I was a certified grief recovery methods specialist in March 2019. In November of that same year, I gave it up cold turkey by utilizing grief recovery tools and working on the relationship I had with alcohol. People who know me may rebuke that and say, well, you weren’t an alcoholic. I would have agreed with that before grief recovery. However, after grief recovery, I know that it was an addiction like anything else.

I was a binge drinker that didn’t know when to stop. That was always an issue for me. I also used alcohol to feel comfortable in my own skin. I didn’t feel like who I was was enough. I needed to be the happy go lucky fun friend that people enjoyed being around. However, what I became was obnoxious, the opposite of who I am. I am sure I was fun too. But I spent many many days paying for it. Alcohol always made me feel very ill no matter what I drink, and I would need a good two days to recover from a weekend bender. I carried a lot of shame to my kids saw me many times hung over more times than I care to count on days where parenting felt overwhelming, including weekdays, it wasn’t unusual that I would drink a bottle of wine before supper. When I would grill I would have a couple of drinks and a buzz going. But by the time we sat down to eat, and I also drove more times than I should have while intoxicated. Something I had to face head on in my shame as well. Because I didn’t only go alone, there are many times I drove drunk with my kids in the vehicle. And I hit all of this very well. Shame is a massive driver for continual harmful behavior that we inflict on ourselves. The mom wine culture that perpetuates this idea that women or parents need alcohol to cope with life is a disastrous message to send. I used to be in that click too.

Fortunately, I didn’t have to learn the most horrifying impact and lesson of my decisions. So if you’re listening to this an alcohol is how you’re coping. Ask yourself what I asked myself. Why do I think I need booze to feel blank? insert whatever word resonates with you. If you’re saying to yourself, you don’t need it, then the next question to ask yourself is then why don’t I eliminate it from my life?. Or perhaps stick to the commitment of one and done. My journal through these questions in thought a lot about the message around alcohol that I want my kids to receive because growing up in small town, rural America, there isn’t much to do. I grew up in this area too. And that’s what kids did. Back when I was growing up and they still do they go to parties. Now I’m not naive to the fact my kids will never drink or even try it. But by having the conversation and setting an example, I’m doing my part and holding up my end of the bargain of what I signed up for when I chose to become a parent and that is to lead by example. This realisation was not an easy thing for me to come to. And again, I had to work on that relationship to alcohol because it truly is a relationship. Grief recovery helped me transform it and rid me of the shame, guilt and beliefs I carried about myself as a mom, woman, friend and spouse because of alcohol. No matter the vise in your life, whether it be anger, meth, alcohol, we all have them.

much love, victoria

P.S. I hope this episode sheds light on just how much unlearning you may have to do. Whatever healing modality keeps nudging at you. I hope that you’re open to being led resiliency and self reliance that so many child Grievers are equipped with, or no reason to not seek help. Your greatness awaits on the other side of your pain. Trust me. And until next time, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Healing & Moving On Isn’t Forgetting

Healing and Moving on

Healing & Moving On Isn’t Forgetting

In a recent podcast interview, the guest, a fellow Grief Recovery Specialist and Parent Educator, used the phrase “living forward” instead of “moving on.” I like that; I think it speaks to the positive more than simply saying “moving on.”

The thing about moving on or living forward is neither is about forgetting, condoning, or minimizing.

Things to Keep in Mind for the Griever You Know

After the loss of a loved one, well-meaning people say things with the hope of encouraging or motivate action for the griever not to dwell. However, what this may cause the griever to do, instead, is to brush aside their grief, minimize what they’re feeling, and do their best to put on a brave face. None of these actions are likely authentic to how they’re feeling and, in turn, only cause more harm and delay healing.

What would be more positive and helpful is if the griever were allowed the time and space to feel how they feel, at the moment they feel it. Anything less is a disservice to themselves, and frankly, anyone else they’re in close relationships with – especially children if the griever is a parent.

What would also be helpful is reiterating to the griever exactly what this post is about; moving on and living forward and working towards healing doesn’t mean the sadness will end. There will always be an empty seat at the table or the relationship that never was quite what they hoped it would be. And, that’s okay. But, as a supporter of a griever, or as a griever reading this, it’s allowing that to be okay, too.

Things to Keep in Mind as a Griever

If you’re reading this through the lens of a griever, I would like to dig more deeply into this idea that moving on (or living forward) means that you’re somehow abandoning that relationship in your heart or betraying the dearly departed in some way. That couldn’t be further from the truth. What would be more hurtful to your loved one is watching you continue to suffer in your sadness.

There are many reasons why grievers suffer in silence. Many reasons are pretty general and similar across the board, including this idea that you have to be strong. No one wants to be looked at like they’re a trainwreck. Rather, it’s far better to look at the role of someone who has their grief game put together, right? You’re not fooling someone like me who is empathic and not only trained in grief but grew up with it being a part of me. I can smell suffering a mile away. Truth be told, I don’t smell it, I feel it, but you get the idea. Your body speaks to me before you even say a word. Sometimes, I can sense what people are struggling with, too. Anyway, I talked about the Myths of Grief on my podcast, which can also be found on my blog. These myths are pretty universal. If you read that article or listen to that podcast episode, you may see yourself in the descriptions of how you’ve responded to life while grieving.

Living Forward

What I would share with you today is that living forward, in other words taking action, is the best thing you can do for yourself today, tomorrow, and for the you that will be reflected in the mirror ten years from now.

Who do you want to be looking back at you?

Do you want to see the grief-stricken, wrung-out from life, beaten down you that you may be feeling like today?

Or, do you want to see yourself as a Phoneix that had risen from the ashes, emotionally stronger than ever before, resilient in your heart, and overcome with gratitude that you found exactly what you needed when you needed it and turned your life around?

How could you possibly forget your loved one?

How could you condone the behavior of someone who hurt you?

You can’t, and you won’t. However, you can take steps forward that enable you to remember your loved one with joy. There may be sadness, too, but it won’t be debilitating or derailing sadness.

And, you can live forward, rewriting your future script that doesn’t include the trauma or the pain of what was done against you that hurt you.  Or, the relationship won’t continue to have the same effect on you, acting as the driver in your life, dictating and influencing every future decision you make. Even if we end a relationship with someone living, don’t be fooled to believe that the relationship ends. If you have anything left emotionally incomplete, that relationship is continuing whether you like to admit it or not. And, even if you do work through it, there will always be things that come up within less than loving relationships or estranged relationships that require attention. It’s how you will choose to address those things that will either impede your growth or aid you in your evolution.

My hope is that after reading this blog post, you recognize that honoring your future by taking action today is how you honor your loved one, too. For those less than loving or estranged relationships, it’s how you honor your present and future.

 What small action can you take today that will help you live forward? 

To taking action! 💛

much love, victoria

Ep 32 | Sandi Derby

Sandi Derby | Child Satanic Sexual Abuse, Meth Addiction, and Miracles

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Sandi Derby, a fellow Advanced Grief Recovery Specialist, and Life Coach, shares her life’s traumatic story that led her to do the work she does today.

As a child, Sandi was sexually abused by her father, followed by sexual, satanic/ritualistic abuse at her uncle’s hands (a pastor) and his friend (also a pastor).

In adulthood, she became a functioning meth addict (by outside appearances)  for 3 1/2 years until a pivotal, life-changing moment woke her up, and her transformational journey began.

Sandi didn’t say this, but I think if you listen to her story, you may agree that how she’s been able to turn her life around is a miracle. And, what she did say, was that she heard God speaking to her.

Growing up in an anti-God home to finding faith, God, and a spiritual connection has been the miracle in Sandi’s life.

Life is mysterious, and so is this greater force, whatever you choose to call it: God, Universe, Spirit, etc., that work through us and with us. We are the co-creators of our lives, and Sandi shares what that journey has been like for her.

“Your past is your present until it’s healed.”

Resources:

Connect with Sandi:

Victoria Volk  00:00
Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. I’m so excited for today’s guest Sandi Derby. She has played a big role in my life in my grief recovery, healing, and has been my heart with yours many times. And so I’m very pleased to bring her to the podcast and give her a chance to share her story because as grief recovery specialists, I think every single one of us, our work is based on our story to like we come to this because of our story. And Sandy is an advanced grief recovery specialist and trainer and professional development coach. She’s actually one of the most amazing people at the grief recovery Institute. And I’m so happy you’re here, Sandi, welcome.

Sandi Derby  00:53
Thank you so much. Well, it’s an honor to be here. I mean, I feel like I’ve gotten to see you on your journey. And then here you are bringing this to so many people that need to hear it, and you have an amazing story. So, it’s an honor. Thank you.

Victoria Volk  01:07
Thank you. Thank you. So, what brought you to grief recovery?

Sandi Derby  01:12
Initially, what brought me to grief recovery is you know, had grown up in this home. With a lot of abuse. My story has a lot of abuses. It was physical, verbal, and sexual abuse for the majority of my childhood. And you know, the other ingredient in my home was denial, there was a lot of bad things happening. But then all the adults around me were acting as if everything was fine and kind of keeping up this image. And I had taken that and really gone into my life, put the blinders on and just heaped on a lot more a lot more pain, a lot more brokenness. There was alcohol, there was drugs, I was a meth addict for three and a half years. And then I walked away, you know, I walked away from meth, I wasn’t using meth anymore, but my heart was still broken. And to be quite honest, I would have never thought that I would have been someone that needed grief recovery, because I associated the word grief with death. And so it was because somebody who heard my story said, Oh, my gosh, you need to do grief recovery. And I thought, no grief recovery isn’t going to help me. But they kept insisting that I do it. And so what I did is I went and I got the book, and I was just going to kind of go through it on my own. And they said, either you get in the group, or I’m going to make the call for you, you need to do this. And it was kind of that gentle, assertive push. And so, I did, I went thinking one, I’m too broken for grief recovery, you know, because even though I wasn’t using meth anymore, my life was definitely not present or full, you know, I was anxious, I was depressed, I had a hard time getting up out of bed in the morning, there was just so much pain still inside my heart. And I had by that time I’d been in therapy at for maybe two, two and a half years. And it had been very helpful. But it had not addressed the deep pain that I carried. And I didn’t realize that the things that had happened to me as a child, were actually losses to be grieved, you know, I had lost my innocence. I had lost safety and trust and purity, I’d lost identity and love and connection, all of the building blocks that a child really, really needs at the hands of people that should have protected me and should have, you know, watched over me. And so when I did grief recovery, the whole way through, I kept thinking, no, this isn’t gonna help. I mean, I did it, I did the work, I engaged with the process, but I really didn’t think it would be effective. And it wasn’t until I got to the final exercise toward the end, that it literally felt like boulders just lifted off my shoulders. And I remember looking at the specialist who was leading at the time, and I said, oh my gosh, it worked. And she was like, well, of course it worked. And I was like, you don’t understand. I didn’t think this was going to help me. You know and so Truthfully, I engage I kept engaging with the tools and I went from someone who was very out of the moment I used to describe myself as I watched my life on a movie screen. That’s That’s how you know unpleasant I was. As I continued to use the tools, I became very present very emotionally aware for the first time in my life. So it was really people that understood grief recovery that kind of brought me there but the losses were you know, I mean I it’s not like I haven’t lost people along the way I have had death experiences, but the major losses for me were the abuses and the neglect of my childhood.

Victoria Volk  04:43
It’s just for a backstory for those listening. Sandy was my heart with yours at my certification and who I shared my who helped me lift my boulders and and when I heard Your story when you shared with me because we were partners, I, oh, I, I cried with you. And I just that moment was so powerful for me to be there with you and to have that experience and just like you said, was going in there, like, it’s not going to help me it’s this isn’t like, skeptical, right? I went in skeptical. Yeah. And it is it’s like this, I just I too felt like this instant relief that I’d never experienced. And similarly, when you mentioned watching your life, like on a movie screen, do you feel like with abuse, particularly with child abuse and childhood, there’s almost like this dis association with our bodies, that happens, and that we kind of just like, that creates that movie screen type feeling of our lives?

Sandi Derby  05:52
Absolutely. I think that you know, as a child were so ill equipped, you know, to begin to understand abuse, and the pain and the fear, and the terror, that go with abuse are often such an overload. For a child’s system, heart, mind, soul and body, that the only way to really cope with it is to leave the body, you know, I can’t, I can’t say that I had those thoughts. As a child, I’m going to leave my body. But I it definitely happened, because it was really the only way to survive. You know, and in my story, there were abuses that happened very young. And then there was, you know, rape, like at the hands of my father. But then I had religious abuses happen at the hands of an uncle and a pastor. So I had, you know, it was this over and over and over again, all these different types of abuses that had happened, and there was no one to help me to navigate any of the things that were happening. And so leaving my body was the only way to survive, because leaving my body also meant that I had didn’t have to be connected to the pain and the terror, it also meant I didn’t have to be connected to the memories. But what that produced in my life was that I wasn’t connected to my life. I was never in my skin, because I stayed disassociated. Even the therapy that I did, which again, it was helpful, I’m really big on any of the healing modalities, what it did not address with the emotional pain, the unresolved grief that I was carrying inside, because of everything that was lost. And I think if I had not discovered grief recovery, I would be in a very different place. Because grieving those experiences helped them to not just be this trauma that happened to me, but it helped it to be something that I could actually walk through emotionally and get on the other side and get in my body. You know, and that was I mean, that was a miracle for me. I never imagined that I could experience life present and in my body. But yeah, to your point that dissociation is very key, especially for children.

Victoria Volk  08:08
I think it’s just miraculous that you are sitting where you’re sitting, that we’re having this conversation. I mean, I I one thing I ponder and I think about often is how so many terrible things can happen to some people, and one person may come out of it. And another it just completely puts them in the ground. Like physically, like actually puts them in the ground like they they just can’t take it right. So how did you get from being the meth addict? Then? to like, what was there a defining moment for you that got you to therapy that led to because I think everything in life kind of leads to the next thing? What was the thing that changed for you? At that time?

Sandi Derby  08:55
Yeah, for me, it was, there was a I think a couple of things. I mean, I lived a lot of my life not being aware of what had happened to me, you know, I had taken on this idea, this denial idea. I have a nice family, everything was fine. My dad was just a little bit hard on me. That’s my life. You know, I loved it very much at the surface. But of course, in order to keep all of that pain, and all of those things at bay, and all of the dark thoughts and all the things that would come, it was I really engaged in a lot of risky behaviors, and then that led into to meth and things like that. But a couple of things happened. One is I came into awareness of what had happened to me, I actually, my defining moment was I had an ex-ex boyfriend that tried to kill me. And it was it happened in Hollywood; it was this big thing. And I mean, there were hell helicopters like police, helicopters and police and it was this huge, huge thing. And by then I was already a meth addict. And there became this moment When I asked a question, and I was asking myself this question, like, wait a minute, I’m on drugs, I chose a man who tried to kill me. And I don’t remember a lot of my childhood, something’s wrong. So, there was a defining moment there, like something is wrong. And that that attack Actually, my ex attacking me a few months later, is when I started to connect with some of the memory from my childhood, which I found out later was textbook a lot of times it takes a traumatic event to start to bring those memories to the surface. And that’s what happened. And when it did surface, it wasn’t like this huge shock. It was kind of like, oh, yeah, I’ve always known that. I just haven’t wanted to look at that memory. The other defining moment for me is when I had Child Protective Services called, I had Child Protective Services called on my father, because I was trying to protect my niece. And that was another big moment, it was kind of like that family secret that I had been carrying all that time was out in the open, and I had the help of a therapist, by the way, I was still on meth, when I made that call, and when that happened, and then the investigation ensued. So, once it was out, and once I wasn’t carrying the family secret anymore, that is when I was able to get off of meth. And my story’s a little bit different. I think a lot of people you know, would need to go to rehab and things like that. For me, it was you know, I kind of had a moment with with God and then after that, I was going to bed one night, and you know, I’d given money to my my friend who was my friend who was my drug dealer, and I had given him money, and he hadn’t returned with my drugs and it was like a couple days later, and I got angry and I called and I left a message for him and said, Give me my money back. You know, most drug dealers don’t return money, but that’s I was mad. And that night when I was going to bed, I just had this thought and the thought was, you know what, if he gives me my money back, it’s time to quit. And the next thought was, if he brings me drugs, I’m going to keep going it was not a big epiphany. It was like a little glimmer and the next morning when I woke up, I went down and went down the hallway and there was this envelope under the door and when I opened it, it was cashed so he gave me my money back and so that was the last time I used but the catalyst really for me not using anymore was that I the secret was out I wasn’t carrying it anymore. And so I walked away from meth and and that was a huge moment that was in October of 2005 you know, and when people see me today, they never look at me and think oh, a meth addict you know, I don’t look like I used meth but I was actually a hardcore I was an everyday user for three and a half years. So and that was a big moment and a huge and miraculous It was also a grieving experience because math was how I got through the day math was how I kept the pain at bay. And then you know, my appearance had altered drastically from that, so it was like trying to come out of all of that. In all honesty, though, if I had stopped there, if my journey had stopped there with, I’m not using anymore, I still wouldn’t be here. Because there was so much pain still in my heart. It was a miracle that I wasn’t using, but the use was more symptomatic of the things that were buried inside of me. And so dealing with the things buried inside was the bigger piece. And I will say the for me and I find this with people is that you know we’re taught you know the toy, we’re taught these things in our culture, we’re taught a couple of things we’re taught you’ve gone through a lot of pain. And once once that’s happened, you’re just always going to live this kind of less than life. You’re all you know you’re aware of it and you’re always going to just be in this place of living this life that is subpar. Or the other the other thing is don’t look at that just that’s in the past go be happy because the pain will be too much so just go be happy. And quite honestly, both of those lies because they are lies in our culture are what stopped people from living the life they can live the truth of the matter is is that what makes the difference for somebody coming out of something like that or not, is realizing that you can walk through the pain if you have the right tools if you have the right people if you can you know you have you know that you can find safe community. Like you can walk through the pain you can and once you walk through the pain, there is another side I don’t wake up anxious every day I don’t wake up depressed every day. I’m a normal person I have my you know, I have my ups and downs and you know life experiences like anyone else, but I don’t live a subpar life. I don’t live a life that would look like I have been severely abused because I have been very, very severely abused. As a child. I have seen things that no child should ever see. And I have experienced things that no A child should ever experienced. But that’s really the difference. It’s like when people can step out of those lies, and realize that there is another side, they can do it, they can walk through it, that that makes the difference.

Victoria Volk  15:12
Thank you for sharing all of that. There’s so much hope in this conversation. What are your thoughts on people who might say, I don’t need to dig up the past? It’s not necessary to dig up the past to relive the trauma to relive the experience in our minds or whatever to move on from it. What are your thoughts? When when you hear that because I hear that a lot.

Sandi Derby  15:40
Yeah, so there’s this sign, it’s in my in my lobby, and it says your past is your present until it’s healed. See, the truth of the matter is, is that the things that are unhealed from the past, it’s it’s it becomes pervasive it, it filters into every area of our lives, it affects our relationship with people. It affects our romantic relationships, our friendships, it affects our vocation, it affects our ability to make money. For people that are believers, it deeply affects their relationship with God, it affects your ability to step into purpose and live your purpose. It affects everything. There’s no getting around that. And so what I tell people when they because I hear that a lot, too, what was the point of digging up the past, and it’s like, well, because it’s affecting you every single day, you don’t have to dig it up. Even though I wasn’t looking at my past. It was with me every moment. It was filtering into everything that I did. I couldn’t like you can’t run from yourself. Wherever you go, there you are. We can’t run from who we are, we can’t run run from ourselves. And we’re really not digging anything up. Because it’s really not truly buried. It’s there. And so that’s what I that’s what I share with people, because I find when people get that and they go, right. And then they actually deal with it, it’s like, then it actually becomes the past. You know, I look at my past. And again, it’s it’s very intense. But I can look at my past, I can talk about it freely and openly. And I’m not on the floor. But I will tell you, I still look at my past. And yes, I’m sad for the little girl that went through that. I am not one of those people that looks at my past and goes, Oh, that made me who I am today. I look at it, like no child should ever go through the things that I went through. And I believe that for me and for anybody that sits in front of me. But it truly is the past. For me, it truly is something that doesn’t come into every area of my life. I’m here, I’m present, I’m living on purpose, I’m excited, I’m passionate, I have a lot of joy. I have a lot of amazing things in my life. Because I do believe that recovery is totally possible. Now, it doesn’t mean that I forgotten those things. It doesn’t mean that those things were okay. And it doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences for the people that did those things. It just means I don’t have to carry those boulders with me anymore. If that makes sense.

Victoria Volk  18:17
I love that. I love that phrase that quote. When you spoke about how religion was used against you, and faith and things. How did you find your way? back to that then? Was it with that awareness of you know, this was put on me? It’s not like how did you come to be curious about that again, and allow it into your life?

Sandi Derby  18:44
Yeah, well, I love that you’re asking that I’m going to answer it from my perspective. And then from some of the people that I’ve worked with, so for me, the the actual home that I was raised in my nuclear family, there wasn’t religion, as a matter of fact, there was it was anti it was, you know, we don’t, we don’t believe in that. We don’t believe in God. Well, I don’t even know if that was even spoken. But I definitely didn’t have that. Now unfortunately for me, my very religious experience was the uncle that abused me. And so this uncle was a pastor, and also had a good friend who was a pastor, they were at the same church, and both of them abused me. And you know it, I don’t mind talking about it, but it went to the satanic level. So, it was a tannic ritual abuse, which was, you know, a step beyond just being sexually abused, which is horrific enough in and of itself, but there were rituals done in the name of God. So, I had, I had a real double-edged sword in the sense that my experience of God and religion was done at the hands of what were supposed to be men of God, who were actually working for Satan and doing horrible, horrible things. So, I had this idea of God number one that he was extremely punitive. And mean and cruel, and not something that I would ever want to be a part of. And so what happened for me is that much later in my meth addiction, I actually had a vision like that came from God, that God gave me a vision. And that vision just helped me to understand that he was that there was a God and that he was real. And that’s what kind of opened the door for me was just this kind of supernatural experience that I had. And then I ended up, I ended up on a plane next to to two pastors in an airplane. And that’s what led me to start going to church. And so, the faith community, for me was extremely beneficial, because it was a lot of love. It was a lot of, you know, happy to see you a lot of like, being this person who was lonely, and not really in a family, because in my story, when I spoke up about the abuse, I was pretty much ostracized by my family, they were like, didn’t happen, we don’t believe you, you know, and so I kind of was really on this lonely, lonely journey. And so having a faith community of people that not only were happy to see me and kind of wrap their arms around me, but believed me and held belief space, for me, was really, really huge. And that started to repair some of the things about God that, you know, obviously, I held in my heart. But the other thing is that I also did, did some work around belief systems and realizing that a lot of my experiences growing up experientially had taught me things, not just about God, but about myself and about others, about my worth, and all of the foundational pieces that should have been so much different, right, I should have been taught this foundation of worse than and, and specialists. And instead, I felt like I was worthless, and garbage and all these kinds of things. And so I actually did work around that to believe something different. All of those things helped me, as well as just having some of my own supernatural experiences, you know, with Jesus and realizing that the abuse that was done to me, like the whole goal of the abuse was to separate me, you know, from from God, it was to separate me from Jesus. And unfortunately, kind of to your point, I work with a lot of people who have, you know, had these types of experiences. There are people they might not have the abuses that I had, maybe they weren’t mechanically ritually abused by somebody claiming to be a Christian, but maybe they were I mean, I’ve definitely worked with that. Or they may be brought been brought up in these very staunch legalistic, hardcore religious systems where the Bible was weaponized against them, you know, the God being punitive was weaponized against them. And those are abuses too. And so, for those people, it’s the same thing, when we can grieve those experiences, and grieve what was lost it a lot of times can open our hearts to the things that will actually help us. And so I find that with the people that I work with, also, and I don’t ever approach anybody that I work with, with this idea of, Okay, we’re gonna go through this so that you can be a faith, you know, so that you can go this route. It’s like, no, no, no, I just want to hear your heart. I just want to be with you and what happened, and I just want to reflect back to you, kind of like, you know, what you and I got to do for each other, and the training and what we get to do for the people we work with, I want to reflect back to you the pain in my eyes. Because I’m, I’m hearing what it is that you experienced. And that’s what I want to do with you. And wherever that person goes with that is up to them. But what I do find is that, religiously, the heart is one of the most neglected and assaulted components of our being. It is assaulted, it is neglected, it is seen as a deceitful thing it is seen as your emotion shouldn’t lead you don’t be emotional, we’re black and white. And people grow up sometimes under so much religious pressure and pain. And then that pain is compounded because they’re taught to just be grateful, and you’re not supposed to feel those things, and you’re not being spiritual, and you’re not believing if you believe those things. And if you have depression, that’s because there’s something wrong with you. And you’re not you’re not seeing God, right? And they’re like under rocks and boulders of all of this stuff. And what I find is, is that when the heart is actually met, and seen and heard, and validated, and gets the opportunity to grieve, that actually a lot of times for people helps them to see that maybe the God that they’ve been taught isn’t really who God is. I have a good friend and one of the things that she talks about is that when she did grief recovery, she said I said saw this other side of God’s heart that wasn’t judgmental, that wasn’t angry, that was compassionate, that had boundless measures of compassion and love. And now you and I both know victory that when we walk people through grief recovery, there’s no religious aspect of grief recovery, we’re not, you know, what we always say to people is we’re not here to impose faith, and we’re not here to interrupt faith, it will do neither. There’s nothing in the process that will interrupt anyone space. And there’s nothing in the process that will impose faith. But what is really beautiful about it, and I’ve never seen anything like it is it brings this soft, understanding, compassionate place to a person’s heart. And because the heart is in religious circles, I’ve seen it as one of the most assaulted places within a person, it’s a really, really beautiful thing when somebody’s heart actually gets heard. And they actually get to realize that the heart is a beautiful thing. And our emotions are beautiful thing. And the pain that we’ve experienced, is that it’s pain, it’s going to be with us until it’s grief. And when they get all of those pieces, that’s what’s helpful. And that’s what was helpful for me too. And that’s what opened my eyes to see that, okay, what happened to me was because people did really evil things, you know, and when I can grieve that I can actually be in my heart and be connected to my heart. And I actually hear God, way more than I ever have. Just because I’m so hard connected. It’s the opposite. Oh, that makes sense.

Victoria Volk  26:37
100% 100% agree, I, I do feel like just doing the work on myself and tapping into my heart and working through all the gunk in there that it’s helped me to really have honestly, like, a spiritual connection to God like more of a wholehearted connection, rather than it being based on any one any religion or faith or whatever it may be. I’m curious what you would say to this question, because I’ve heard this too. You know, sometimes people just aren’t, they’re not ready to go there with grief recovery, or they feel like or they have a very strong faith that can you know, you have a very strong faith. I feel like I’m very connected with God. I don’t need this. Because I have God. I pray. And that’s all I need. Have you have you encountered? What would you say to that?

Sandi Derby  27:40
I mean, I, I hear that often. Yeah, I’ve encountered that many, many times. And, again, I think if somebody has a strong faith, and they’re praying, I think that’s a beautiful thing. I think that’s awesome. I agree. Praying is not grieving. They’re two different things. And so, what I do say to that person is a couple of things. Number one, in the Scriptures, it talks about poor laboring, and it’s this idea that we co labor with Christ, that there’s a part in our sanctification process that we do. And there’s a part that Jesus does. Grief recovery is about helping us it’s about giving us the tools for our side of the street. It’s, it helps us to engage in the coal labor process. It doesn’t take Jesus’s role. He has his role. But we do have a role, our role with God with Jesus, it’s a relational role we are in relationship. We’re co laboring together, we’re being hands and feet. And in our inner process, which is a sanctification process of becoming more like Jesus. There are things that we do, it isn’t that he comes and just takes it off. There are certain things that we do, and grief recovery helps us with our side of the street. Another way to look at it is we were created to grieve, by the way, like we were made by God to be able to grieve we’re born being able to grieve. We’re born grieving. You look at little kids, they’re in the moment it is up and out, and then they’re on to the next thing. They are emotional processing plants. We learn to be emotional storage units, we learn to store things inside and by the way, what people do need to understand is emoting meaning like, well, you know what, Sandy, but that’s not true. Because you know what, there’s times when I’m by myself and I’m praying, and I do cry, or there’s times when I go in my room and I do cry, Oh, there’s times when I’m driving in my car and I do get angry and I do feel feelings and all that kind of stuff. That’s great. But emoting and grieving are two different things. We unlearn grieving. And so another way to look at it is imagine you’re born and you got a little backpack and it’s empty. And then things happen. You might get stolen, you move, a parent dies, or parents get divorced or grandparent dies or you get abused or things happen and guess what, when we’re little we look to the people around us because they’re the ones that They’re supposed to teach us how to grieve. But by then the adults around us have learned to stuff and compartmentalize and not grieve. So what happens for us is that every time one of those things happen, either a rock, a pebble or a boulder goes in our back. You know, john James says, We’re taught how to acquire things, we’re not taught what to do when we lose them. And so over time, we end up with a pretty heavy backpack. It’s full of rocks, and pebbles and boulders. Grief recovery method is the tool so that we can relearn how to get rocks, pebbles, and boulders out of our back, none of the religious practices will get rocks, pebbles, and boulders out of the backpack, because we were created by God to already grieve. And we were created to do that in community, with people grieving has to be done with people, at least one other person. And so because we live in a society where we don’t come together and grieve, we are isolated, and alone in our pain. And in our experiences, we don’t have the communal tools to be able to walk through the grieving process. And remember, grief can happen for multitudes and multitudes of things. And so grief recovery recovery method is specific to getting rocks out of the background. And I will tell you, I’ve, I’ve done lots and lots of trainings, I’ve trained lots of grief recovery specialists, and you know how to training not long ago, and there were people in the training that were, you know, very much believers and Christians, and, you know, prayerful and all those things. And that’s awesome. I mean, great. And they had all the same questions that you were just talking about. And I kept going back to the rocks in the backpack, and there’s a little diagram that I that I draw, her name is Sally, and she’s got dots inside. Don’t make me draw Sally again. And I kept going back to Sally, but I will tell you, because in the training, they walked through the grief recovery method, by the time they were through the method, every single one of them was in shock. I can’t believe how much later I feel. And I can’t believe how much different everybody in this room looks because they look lighter. Because the tools to get the rocks out of the backpack are found in grief recovery method, that’s just the reality are there probably other tools out there, there may be I just haven’t seen any of them yet. And so for somebody who is someone who is prayerful and all those kinds of things, like I said, I, I am too. I am a big prayer person, I believe in all of that stuff. And there’s an inner healing even that Jesus has brought, to me that has been deeply profound. But when it comes to grieving, those things will not get those rocks out. And we have to remember, we’re co laboring, we’re not just sitting back and Jesus or God is just going to do it all. We have to engage in the process. And this process will give you the tools that you need for your side of the street. And like we talked about, when you get that right that gunk out of the heart, what happens is, is that your heart opens up. And now there’s this deeper connection. You know, for people that are below that there’s this deeper connection. And so I find that for a lot of people that’s what happens and they don’t realize, oh wow, with these tools, I actually go deeper in my faith, my prayer life changes and it gets deeper and more profound. So that question I think comes up a lot. I think it’s a valid question to be honest, I think you know, when we’re taught these certain things about about prayer, of course prayer is is amazing and of course it does it moves mountains roof recovery doesn’t interrupt that at all. It’s just it’s a different lane. And if you don’t address that lane, then guess what that lane filters into all the other lanes grief has an unresolved grief has a way of impacting every area including the spiritual area.

Victoria Volk  34:05
Yeah, I’m reminded of a quote I’m not sure how it goes exactly. Maybe this is it but pray and move your feet. Pray and move your feet so it’s about taking action to not just sitting back praying but sitting back and waiting waiting for something to change within you waiting for someone else to you know waiting for him God whatever you believe in to take those boulders and pebbles and rocks out of your backpack for you. No one will do it for you, right?

Sandi Derby  34:40
No, it’s like there’s this one scripture and it says you know, and again you talking about action. It is an action scripture cuz it’s like, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. It’s a quick one people know it off the top of their head. But when you think of that first part Love the Lord your God with all your heart. How Do that. And how do you love with all your heart when your heart is all stopped up with pebbles and rocks and boulders? How do you do that? Bingo, that scripture is calling you to action. It’s not saying God is going to come in and he’s going to, he’s going to get all that stuff out. So and then, you know, move you into loving, it’s no, this is an action that we take, how do you live that out? Well, you need the right tools in order to be able to love wholeheartedly. There’s another scripture that says, hope deferred makes the heart sick. But a longing fulfilled is the tree of life. And it’s just this idea that, you know, when we have deferred hope, when our hearts are all stopped up with stuff, our hearts are sick, well, if your heart is sick, if your heart is holding all of these things, you’ve got to take action. In order to get better, it’s no different than if I have a gash on my arm, I’m going to the doctor, if I break a leg, I’m going to the hospital, I need to take some kind of action, it’s the same with the heart, it’s, I think, for a lot of people a little bit less tangible, because I can see a broken leg or you know, blood gushing out of my arm. Sometimes a broken heart is a little bit harder to see visibly. But when you can think of the analogy of all those rocks and pebbles and boulders in your backpack, that that becomes a bit more tangible. And you go Okay, so I’m carrying this, it’s really heavy. And these tools will lighten the load. And I can actually engage in something that will lighten the load, and it works every time.

Victoria Volk  36:31
You know, speaking to grief that begins in childhood childhood trauma and things like that. Yesterday, I had this awareness that came to me I never really understood why when people say this, it makes just makes my skin crawl, it just irritates me. But when people say that children are resilient, it just always, just as always gotten to me and I could never really articulate why it bothered me so much. Until yesterday, I came across a post for someone talked about being self reliant, and how self reliance like if you want help go look to the end of your own arm. You you know you have you have the power in your own, at the end of your arms in your own hands, to help yourself, right. And it’s about being self reliant. Like self reliance helps us to see that in a self reliant. So, what I thought back to was my childhood and how I, unlike probably you as well, if you have you, you grow up having to be self reliant, you have to be your own hero. And I think that’s different than resiliency, but yet very much the same. And I think someone people would say, well, children, when people say that their children are resilient, they’ll bounce back. It just occurred to me yesterday that the people who are saying this, like is it people who are on able to look at what that child has experienced, or look at that child’s pain, without being able to really empathize. Because I think if you’re looking at a child and what they’re going through, regardless of what it is, that might be hard for them, it’s easy to think, well, you’re resilient, you’ll bounce back, you’re not going to address what it is that child is experiencing, you’re not going to be able to put yourself in that child’s shoes, because you’re seeing it from the lens as an adult, in your experience. And if you have not addressed anything in your own heart, your grief, trauma, anything. How can you see that in the child? How can you empathize with them? You’re going to say, children are resilient, and they bounce back. And it just occurred to me yesterday, why that irritates me so much. Because it’s not about being resilient. It’s about not being given the choice of having to be self reliant. I didn’t have a choice. Yeah, I did not choose that. So the resilience comes from a lot of pain and suffering and having to be self reliant. And I think that’s why they’re so intertwined. And that’s why it just really just grinds my gears. What are your thoughts on that?

Sandi Derby  39:27
Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that when people say that, because I work with the adults that have been through the things as a child, number one, I looked like a resilient child. I did, you wouldn’t have known the things that were happening to me I learned to function in spite of all of it. That’s not resiliency that’s coping. And I’ll tell you what, it comes out later. Children will meld into their environments and do what they have to do in order to try to get any little scrap of love that they can get because they’re so dependent on the adults and caregivers. is around them. But it will come out later. number one. Number two, when you teach a child, like you’re saying that idea of resiliency and self reliance, and and I love what you said about you know you didn’t have a choice, you got to figure it out, you’re teaching them to stuff mountains of pain that let me tell you it will affect them in relationships, it’ll affect their health, it’ll affect their well being and their career and all of those different things. And now they have no tools even as an adult, right? Because what we learned as a child is what we carry into adulthood, to be able to connect with people and actually get the things that we need in order to get better, because like I mentioned with grief, you can’t do grief in self reliance, you have to actually be with people who are with you in your heart. And we have all these people that have learned to be self reliant. And guess what, nobody’s healing. You nobody’s healing. And yes, maybe you’re living a life and maybe you’ve gotten your career really far. But guess what, everything else is falling apart. Because all you’ve been able to focus on is your career. Because that’s how you’ve coped. We have so many people walking around today that are in coping, and they’re coping and not living. Being self reliant. That’s what it teaches us to do. It teaches us to cope instead of live. Think about how you and I are on this call right now. And we’re so connected in our hearts are connected. And, you know, we could probably talk for hours, right? Because we’re being with each other. And because we’ve done this work, and we have this heart connection, and it’s really beautiful. And it’s this amazing experience. But how many people go through life and they don’t get to have this. They don’t get to live and be present and connect. They’re coping. And to your point, that’s what we teach children. We teach them to cope, when they’re born knowing how to grieve, and they’re born knowing how to get things out. We teach them to live in coping, and that’s what that does, I was a great cover, I was really great at it. But that did not mean that I was living in that I was present. And that’s for so many people that I know, even if their life looks really good on the outside. We want to be living present people, we need other people, by the way to do that. We need other people in our breathing experience. And I’ll say this, I know we’re almost out of time. But that’s why grief recovery method works a lot. Because it’s not just that you’re getting the tools. It’s that you’re either walking through it with one other person, or we’re in a group setting, breaking into smaller groups. And you’re getting that community validating, compassionate experience that lets your heart come out to heal. Because your heart won’t heal unless it feel safe. And when you teach people to be with and say that kids are resilient and the whole self reliant thing, it’s not healthy. It’s not healthy. It’s not actually how we’re created to live.

Victoria Volk  42:53
Yeah, and I have a whole podcast blog post social post, I’m going all over the place with that message, because it came to me so clear yesterday and hit me like a thunderbolt. And yeah, it’s something I really want to speak to for children. Because hurting children become hurting adults. There’s a lot of hurting inner children out there right now. Especially with COVID, everything mounting up.

Sandi Derby  43:22
And then what they teach other children is also how to be cope.

Victoria Volk  43:28
Yep, that generational learning continue, the loop continues.

Sandi Derby  43:32
Yes, yes, definitely.

Victoria Volk  43:36
I wished we had more time. We do part two, at some day. I would love that.

Sandi Derby  43:46
Yes, absolutely. That’d be great.

Victoria Volk  43:47
To speak to another aspect of grief. I think. I would love that. Where can people find you?

Sandi Derby  43:55
You can go to sandiderby.com, and there’s contact info. Um, there’s all kinds of stuff.

Victoria Volk  44:08
All of Sandi’s amazingness right there for you. Sandi, you hold a special place in my heart, you always will. I’m so glad our paths connected in March 2019. It’s a remarkable journey for me, and I’m so glad to have been able to share it with you. So, thank you for being on this podcast today, and for sharing your story. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 31 | Nicky Scorpio

Nicky Scorpio | Curiosity Saved Me: An A.I. Child Growing Up in an LGBTQ Home

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Nicky Scorpio, singer, songwriter, producer, and host of Scorpio Rising Podcast shares his experience being a child of artificial insemination, whose biological father later died of AIDS, and who was raised in an LGBTQ home.

Through growing up in and around diversity all of his life, he gleaned many lessons. At age 12, he started to understand where he didn’t fit and became an angry child as a result.

Nicky recognized later in life, the important role curiosity played in his healing of childhood wounds. Through studying philosophy, meditation, seeking healers, shamans, and mentors, he slowly began to find his way back to himself.

Interestingly, he brings up something not often talked about in personal development. When a person begins to work on themselves and their healing, there are often consequences within relationships. People may say some hurtful things and resist the more evolved version of you.

As Nicky says in this episode, “Vulnerability is the key to set ourselves free.”

Resources:


Connect with Nicky:

 

Victoria Volk  00:00
Welcome, welcome! It’s another episode of grieving voices. Today my guest is Nicky Scorpio. Welcome, Nicky.

Nicky Scorpio  00:09
Thank you, thank you for having me.

Victoria Volk  00:11
I just got a little bit taste of what we’re going to talk about today. And it’s too good. I had to stop Nicky to record because it was getting too good. So, like right out of the gate. I just have a really great feeling about this episode. So, first Nicky, introduce yourself. First of all, too, like, who you are, where you’re from, and I know what brought you to grieving voices.

Nicky Scorpio  00:38
Ah, yeah, thanks again for for having me. Yes. So, for those who don’t know me, my name is Nicky Scorpio. I’m a singer, songwriter, producer, engineer. I do a lot of different things, really, in the world of wellness. That’s why I love what you’re doing. Thank you for doing what you’re doing. I think that I think that it’s important and I think it’s the one thing that connects all of us. I originally come from the Bay Area. I was raised in Berkeley, I have Berkeley, California, land of the hippie and conspiracy theory. I have been living in New York for on and off for about eight years and currently in the Detroit area right now with my girlfriend’s family. And yeah, what brings what brings me here is this is gonna be a little shout out to she’s all over the place podcast, Katie Janaki is Katie brought me here. You know, we we both very understand the importance of right now more than ever. Being able to give yourself permission to grieve, being able to say like, I’m going through something and not just having to put on a smiley face. I lived I lived in Los Angeles for about five or six years. And I’ve had the, you know, the privilege of being able to be around people from all different walks of life. I come from very, very humble beginnings. I was raised by a teacher and as you know, teachers don’t get treated like celebrities, unfortunately, it should be flipped over in my personal opinion. Yeah. So, you know, I’ve been able to hang out with 99% and the 1% and there’s a lot of misconceptions about people when people don’t understand people who come from different backgrounds. And what I’ve experienced is a lot of times people who don’t come from money who have unhealthy beliefs about money will look at somebody who does have money and they’ll judge them right and what people don’t realize is that person who has you know, financial freedom might not have people around them that they can trust and and they they might have been told like don’t show your emotion right so a lot of times this is a generalization but like a lot of times people who are really really good at money have a very difficult time at showing their emotions for whatever reason the story that we all carry and when I started realizing this and seeing this and seeing especially in entertainment how you you see so many talented people that that all of a sudden they get success and they have all of this money and then they have no one around them to say like hey like you know, how are you feeling? Or like it looks like you’re taking a lot of pills or It looks like you’re drinking or smoking all the time like are you okay you know you get these people that are also insecure that that don’t check in with with the person that’s supposed to be their friend and then it all kind of comes crashing down and so for me you know especially as a guy where guys are taught to bottle it all in and to hold it all in and that’s why seeing more people not only having anxiety and depression but you’re also seeing more people taking prescription pills and and doing a lot of different things and self medicating for me for me now more than ever I want to make I want to make this conversation human I want to make it cool and I want to make it acceptable and celebrated in society to say like hey, I’m not feeling okay okay, that’s cool well I have my friends I have my family I have my community and you know that’s that’s how it used no matter where you’re from in the world lastly no matter where you’re from in the world all of our ancestors that was how it was we all had elders we all had community and that needs to be cool again like that needs to be something that’s that’s accepted and again like celebrated to say like when someone’s not feeling okay like I know your mom or I know your dad or I know you like I grew up with you and like you know better than this. We got to check in with one another so yeah,

Victoria Volk  04:35
And isn’t it ironic that we have social media to do just that, and like the more connected we claim to be, the more disconnected we have become?

Nicky Scorpio  04:47
Ah, it’s really wild. There is a without without naming names, there’s a celebrity,  actually, I saw this yesterday. That was doing a social post for a medication and people were getting on that person about that. And when I lived in Los Angeles, I had the opportunity to work with a social media agency, you know, people who take celebrities, from like a listers to whoever has the, you know, the means to pay for this service. Right? And it’s, it’s wild to me how people who aren’t in Hollywood people who aren’t in the entertainment industry, they do have this very, like, if I were in this world, if people acknowledged me if, if I had millions of followers that I’d be okay. And for me personally, like, I’ve been in that world, I know people who have 1000s 10s of 1000s hundreds and millions of followers and then the camera turns off, and they have no self identity, they don’t know where they’re going, they don’t know what they’re doing. The people around them are often and this is again, this is you know, generalizations, but toxic, just really, really superficial, really mean spirited and and then when I got out of this, and again, this is why I’m doing what I’m doing. Is that for people, like you and I, for people that that understand the importance of being vulnerable, and maybe, you know, like, I’m more introverted, people that are more extroverted and have the ability to interact with people and network and do all these different things. They crave crave authenticity, they crave people around them that that are real that will you know, call them out on their stuff and to say, like, you know, I don’t I’ve never been impressed by money I’ve never been impressed by fame for me it’s more of a means to like if you have a good intention that you can do something powerful, right? So I wish I wish that there were I wish that there was an education on social media because what I’ve been able to learn and how I’ve been able to heal myself and and how I’ve been able to completely transform my life in myself is through social media has been amazing at the same time. If I were 12 and I had social media, I was bullied. I don’t know what I would do so it’s you know, it’s a double-edged sword that needs to have a different dialogue for sure.

Victoria Volk  07:10
You hit the nail on the head is the education piece, right? Like how are we using this tool to be of service to the greater bigger picture and then to ourselves and into our four walls, like just the people who are with in our circles?

Nicky Scorpio  07:28
Yeah, no matter what, I’ll say like, no matter what you’re looking for, like if you’re curious about something like I know, I know, people that are that we’re looking to get into veganism, I’m I eat mindfully, I’ve tried a lot of different things. I consider myself a seeker. If you’re curious about something, you can type in the hashtag, you can find ingredients, you can find recipes, you can find a whole community and then your whole algorithm changes up and starts giving you more stuff. So every day, instead of me going on to social media and being like, gee, look at Billy Billy’s traveling and has 100,000 followers. My life is terrible. I get to wake up with like, sound bowls, and I get to wake up with like, Look at this beautiful place in Iceland or like, you know, things from someone like yourself, where I’m getting knowledge, I’m getting insight and I’m starting off my day, like, oh, cool, like, I’m good enough. So yeah, it’s it’s choices, options, you know?

Victoria Volk  08:19
Well, there’s the education right there. Boom, Mic drop. Clean up our feeds, right? clean up our feeds. Think about what you need to grow to evolve to feel good.

Nicky Scorpio  08:31
Yeah

Victoria Volk  08:32
It’s about feeling good, right?

Nicky Scorpio  08:34
Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Volk  08:35
You had mentioned briefly documentary called Happy? Can you share a little bit about that? Because that’s a good segue.

Nicky Scorpio  08:44
Yes, so there’s there’s a amazing documentary on Netflix that I watched a couple years ago and it’s called happy and they go and it’s basically it’s the psychology of happiness and they go around to all these different cultures they look at the United States they look at places all around the world and they say like what makes us happy and one of the happiest places in the world is in a very remote village in India and they have very basic basic means of living right like they kind of like as people know who who know what’s going on outside of the world like India like they’re still looking to have like clean drinking water all the time like there’s a lot that that could be that could be better that’s actually thankfully being fixed and helped because of technology However, they don’t really have a lot they are not influencers yet what they do have is they have community they have people around them where like they’re happy because every day no matter what you’re feeling, if you’re feeling if you’re feeling sad, if you’re feeling down, hang out with people that are dancing, hang out with people that sing all the time hang out with people no matter what your religion is that have faith and try to be down you can’t like the smile kind of like forces in a healthy way like forces itself up and and that’s the power of community right? Like when when I grew up I had my immediate family was was small and kind of like split up when I was younger however Thanksgiving I had, like amazing men and women in my family that were the greatest storytellers and I used to just hang out with them and half the time I didn’t even know what they were saying. But it was it was so like I was just always an odd just listening to how they would talk and being around for someone who grew up without a father being around these you know, men that were charismatic, that were good people that were faithful that were monogamous that that, you know, we’re very international and very well rounded had a strong character shaped me into into wanting to have that because I saw the power of that and and it’s interesting and I recommend everybody to check it out. It’s called Happy the documentary is called happy. It’s it’s interesting because we as Americans have this idea that when we get the next one, we accomplish the next goal when we get that raise, when when we get on our page, when we get like the blue checkmark, you know, when when we get whatever it is that house that all of a sudden, that we’re gonna be better and what from what I’ve learned, if you’re not mentally, like if your perspective isn’t, isn’t healthy, like if and if you don’t have people around you that are checking in with you. And again, I have people that call me out like I don’t need a bunch of people that are just being fans and saying everything you’re doing is great, because I’m human. But when when you have that aspect in your life, you get you get freedom and you understand that no matter what you have, you know higher low that you have optimism that you can be happy with anything because if you can be happy with nothing, then you can be happy with everything you know, so it’s big.

Victoria Volk  12:00
That’s very good. Not all of that. So, tell me then, how did you get to hear I mean, you mentioned the support system and the role models that you had but obviously you’re not really going to, you’re not going to dig into that until you’re probably an adult or you’re a little bit older and reflect on that but what was growing up without your father like for you?

Nicky Scorpio  12:28
I have a very, I have a very very diverse like I grew up in such a diverse household and community that for me like I have a very broad perspective so I grew up in kind of like a rough part of Berkeley and like literally right by the train tracks and you know, we were pretty much like the only white family and it was interesting because and on one side of things like I was raised to know my culture like I’m from my again like my mom’s a teacher and so I was always raised to know where I come from you know, I grew up eating all different types of food, Indian foods, making food, American food, etc etc Mexican and so I always understood different cultures and where it gets even more diverse is I was raised in an LGBTQ plus family before it was cool to label it and so on one aspect I you know, we were kind of like we fit into the neighborhood but at the same time like we didn’t if that makes sense um and when when I was about nine everything in my life just completely and totally flipped so right around New Year’s Eve my other mom left our house and and said you know that she didn’t want to be a part of this that this was my mom wanted children my mom wanted children My father was a very very close friend to my mom and you know, I’m an artificial insemination. So he he was in my life but he wasn’t in my life but I did have a two person household and my my other mom left and kind of around the same time my my father died of of AIDS. And while all of this happened we also had to find a new place to live because my other mom at that time was with somebody who didn’t really care that we had a place to live it was it was very it was very manipulative. It was very toxic It was very difficult. We’ve worked through it I speak to her now like I love her and I’ve forgiven and and then on top of that, right around the same time like my grandfather passed away and and I went from being I was like the Bart Simpson of my school. Like everybody knew me, everybody Love little Nikki and you know life was good and life is fun even in all the chaos it was always like Be yourself be colorful be brightened kids are so resilient, right. And I was so resilient. And then we had to move to my mom wanted to get out of the neighborhood that we were in because it was it was getting pretty bad. And there was some, there was some like, pretty, pretty intense, which we could talk about another time pretty intense. Racial based violence that I I experienced with my, with my mom being being attacked, and my mom the next day by the people who attacked her was taken care of, of their kids, because that’s what my mom, my mom did. My mom was a teacher, before she was a teacher, she took care of the we did like low income daycare, right? And so I grew up with kids from all different backgrounds, Special Ed, everything. And, um, what was interesting is, I didn’t process all of this, so I was still being the class clown, and I was still kind of goofing off and stuff. And yeah, it was difficult moving, but then right around 12 everything kind of started to hit me. And what’s interesting is there’s people that are angry, and there’s people that are not aware that they’re angry, and I wasn’t aware of how angry I was. And, you know, when I was a teenager, my mom, my mom had to do a lot of work to get me to really even because I was so I was so frustrated because it’s like as a teenager you’re comparing you’re looking at other people’s lives, you’re when they have like the like, bring your parents to work day, you know, bring your dad you know, blah, blah, blah, these kinds of things. And you start to you learn when you’re a kid you learn where you are, if you’re wealthy, if you’re rich as a kid, you know that you’re rich, and if you’re not, you definitely know that you’re not and I knew that I wasn’t because we were living in like a bootleg version of like Beverly Hills 9021 No, and it was a small town in the Bay Area, and everybody knew everything about me so I got bullied over and over and over again in many many different ways from like, your mom’s a lesbian, but they didn’t say it that way. It wasn’t friendly, it wasn’t cool, you know, to people just calling our house and just saying terrible things about me and about my family, um, a lot of different stuff. And I was I was really, you know, again, I went from the top of the totem pole and I got knocked all the way down. And I was an outsider who was like, to this way for these people and to this way for for those people. So you know, as I continue to grow older, I I realized that I was making unhealthy decisions and I basically I hit rock bottom. And it was from hitting that rock bottom, which I feel like a lot of us go through and if and if we if we don’t realize that we’re going through that rock bottom it can be detrimental. However, I knew that I was going through a very difficult time and from there, I again I don’t judge people don’t believe in God, I don’t care if you believe in whatever you believe in right from me from me, like I connected with God. And, and was just like, I, I surrender, I put my life in your hands. And I started going on this journey. And I started studying different philosophies and I and I started looking for kind of like more Eastern stuff and I got into meditation. I then met my my lovely girlfriend, my lovely partner. And, you know, she introduced me to shaman into healers into different ceremonies. And I just started cracking my code and realized from doing all of this work that people say that everything happens for a reason, but it sounds corny and it sounds cheesy, but what I what I learned and kind of like the and we can keep on going but like that the edited version of this what I what I learned is that a lot of times we look at what we’re going through as like the ultimatum like the final chapter and what we don’t realize is that it’s it’s a page in a book right? Like if we’re going to give that analogy it’s a page in a book and and it’s not the end of the chapter excuse me there’s plenty of different chapters and and if we can just go through this and have that faith and have that optimism of like this thing that I’m going through is going to lead to my greatness like now I’m at the place because I was able to say like I’m not okay or I was able to say like oh I’m angry from this or you know, when when when when your home splits up, then you get abandonment issues. And I had to learn about abandonment issues, and I had to learn about like, why I’m making these kinds of choices and why why am I Why am I feeling angry when I’m seeing other people Like you talked about social media, why am I getting jealous? Or why am I getting angry? When I see somebody else who’s genuinely happy, there’s something, there’s something that’s kind of off about that. And I started checking in more of my feelings. And then what I got to was we went to lightning in a bottle Music Festival. And you’re hearing me talk about this now, but I put up a huge wall, before I had huge trust issues. And there was this amazing poet, and His name’s Prince EA, and he’s so good. He’s so so intelligent. He’s such a genius with his words. And I wish poetry was more mainstream. But for the first time, I really wanted to get up on the microphone, you know, when after people speak and say like, I like I want to just give props or have a question or something, I’m normally not that guy, but I wanted to, and I was able to have a conversation in that moment, because the woman before me was native and she was upset because someone was, who wasn’t native was wearing a headdress and, and their friends were putting her down and talking about her. And she was angry about this, rightfully so. And, and basically, there was this huge tension because like, the people were upset or were offended or thinking she doesn’t understand and people that were more connected with her were frustrated, because they relate to it. And, and I had this this conversation, you know, with with Prince EA, where I said, I kind of give like a brief very, very, like 32nd version of my life where I said, like, this is how I was born. This is where I come from, like, this is how my family is. And I’ve seen my mom struggle as as an educator, as a teacher, and she’s an angel, my mom, when I was in high school worked five jobs a week, just so we could live in a better neighborhood, right? And I want to know how we as men, Can Can you know, uplift the women around us and how we can be better as men and I said it in a more eloquent way, but it was this moment where because I shared this everyone everyone stopped and the anger dissipated, it like shattered the that wall and the women that were like hard because I was raised by feminists, so I get it hardcore. And and the women that were hardcore feminists turned around and people turned around and the co founder of lightning in a bottle was there and she turned around and pointed at me and I and I had this moment where I learned where I was like, vulnerability is the key that sets us free we have to share we have to all tell our stories, my story isn’t better than your story isn’t better than anyone else’s story. But it’s the story and through the stories through this wisdom through this perspective, we get to broaden our perspectives and we get to understand one another and and and especially again in the male community, I learned because I was raised by women so like I don’t necessarily connect with that like macho energy a lot of times like it’s there’s there’s a lot of preconceived notions towards people like myself and I was able to get this of like, vulnerability which we’re taught, be optimistic be happy all the time be outgoing, be upbeat all the time just be on all the time that’s how our society is but it’s really this vulnerability that connects us and that’s really to answer your that’s the kind of long version to answer your question that’s how I got to where I’m at is I learned through all of these experiences and again through all this education and through my mentors through my peers through people around me that shared like this is a shaman like you can do a ceremony you can meditate you can do Vipassana you can do a 10 day silent meditation where you don’t say a word at all and you check in with your feelings you can read these books there’s been a million people before you that have experienced the same things and you know 1/8 of those people have written or I’ve done something to share to teach and and when I got from that was we need to enjoy the chapters that we’re reading in our life not think that it’s the last chapter but also not only to have that faith but to say you know what, if I’m if I’m not feeling okay, I’m not feeling okay and and if I can be okay with that, that can open up doors and then I get more authentic people around me I get people that are okay with me being that way and then I get celebrated and when I’m feeling sad and when I’m feeling angry, and when I’m in an aisle, everything in between and I have people who say that I’m good enough and that I matter which sounds silly but it’s it’s something that we all need that and want and crave that validation. I can move mountains and I can make magic happen. So, I mean that’s I mean, that’s really it and it’s been for me, it’s still a journey and it’s ongoing, but now at least in the craziest of times, like I get freedom and I get peace.

Victoria Volk  24:59
You mentioned you had hit rock bottom. When was that for you?

Nicky Scorpio  25:04
That was right after I graduated from high school, and again, that was my, my mom pointed out that she started showing me kind of like, it was a very simple conversation she was like this is this is normal when when people excuse me, when people see danger, when people see chaos, they go away from it, they cross the street. Whereas what, from what I learned, this wasn’t my mom, this was from me learning that when, as a young man, when you when you grow up without a father, you are more likely to get in trouble, you’re more likely to be incarcerated, you’re more likely to find yourself in poverty, you’re more likely to, you know, not do well in school, and I had everything on the check mark. And, you know, it was really, in that point, from from experiencing all of that, when I, I by the grace of God, like I got my freedom. And my mom was pointing out to me showing me like, you know, this is how you’re communicating. And these are the people that you’re choosing to be around. And this is the life that you’re choosing. And even though like you grew up this way that there’s more for you. And I actually, I went on kind of like a cool journey where I packed these bag lunches with my mom and we went around Oakland, and basically, I had lunch with 10 homeless people. And I had conversations with them and was just asking them like you just talking with them just like gaining wisdom from them. And really, it was through this process where I started, I started realizing that I had lost my way. And when I was younger, like I said at the beginning of the story when I was younger, I was around everything, and I was aware of it to a certain degree, but I was so resilient. Like you know, when you’re a kid when when kids play like, oh, there’s hot lava on the floor, they see in their mind, like they see hot lava and that’s it like they can create anything from their imagination. And, and again, like everyone, everyone loved me when I was younger and my head was very big, my skin was very pasty. I dressed like I was like fresh out of like a Crayola colored box. But I didn’t care. I just I loved myself. And and then when life hit me, I went from being Nikki to Nick to serious and Nick was very serious and Nick put up a wall because Nick was getting judged and and Nick had to internalize all of this stuff and hold this all in because again, I was getting bullied, I gained, I gained and I lost thankfully but like I gained 90 pounds, just eating junk food because a girl told me who was older than me, she said you’re gonna die alone and skinny. And, and I was young, and I believed her. And so I deliberately started gaining weight and doing things and that’s all I’m saying is it in so many different ways. Because I was insecure that I believed these things. And that’s again, like that’s another reason why I’m doing what I’m doing because there are so many people that have golden hearts, and they get beat down and they are insecure and if those people if those kids that those boys and girls were told that you’re good enough and and we’re given kind of like a guideline to celebrate who they were that this world would be completely transformed, but it was really it was really you know from me just unlearning a lot of different stuff where I started to discover wow like I’ve always been this people pleaser like I’ve always told people that I’m okay and I’ve always kind of like been the free therapist for so many people and when I really started transforming when I really started changing 90% of the people around me changed people said that I was better than them that I thought that I was you know like too good for them and and just people like like making fun of me for for wanting to like learn and heal myself and it was a very difficult transition but it was for me it was like a necessity where I’m like I don’t feel happy like I don’t feel good with what I have and I’ve had successes I’ve been up and I’ve been down and you know and and i still even when I was doing well like I wasn’t feeling good about myself and it was really this need of like I know that there are people that feel happy I know that there are people that no matter what they have that they feel good and I just I went on this journey and I unlearned all of this stuff and I realized where the root of everything came from I just constantly was like no like this. This is frustrating but that’s not it. It’s deeper than that. No, it’s it’s deeper than that. It has nothing no it doesn’t matter if okay, like I have money now I’m still not happy. It has nothing to do with that. And then I cracked my code and and then from there was like, Alright cool like, life is gonna keep on hitting me it does it’s not that all of a sudden like I’ve reached Nirvana and everything’s perfect is more so of, I have tools, right like I can I can like earlier like you took a deep breath like you can you can do Wim Hof breathing, you can just breathe, like you can take three deep breaths before you go into a meeting, and it will slow down your mind. You can, you can listen, you can listen to what people say, you can listen to what their truths are, when you’re around people, you know, or are they if you’re in sales, if people are saying, Man, it’s a slow day today. Do you acknowledge that like, do you? Do you not agree with them? Or? Or do you just let them vent and just express their stuff? Because it has nothing to do with you? Do you? when people put you down? When they say terrible things about you? Do you believe that? Or do you know who you are? You know, it’s it’s things like that. And so even though it was rough, and it sounds like like, like I’m not I’m not a master, I’m not a guru. I’m not an expert in any way, shape, or form. But because I went through all of these very traumatic and difficult experiences, I was able to understand. Everyone is going through this, where people say we have to stop the bullying, no one’s saying how is the bully feeling? Because the bully is getting bullied bully is going through terrible things. And the bully is actually the hero, because the bully is the only one who’s saying, I’m not okay, I’m not okay, I’m not okay. Right. And, and so and so that’s what it is, is just being able to slow down and to observe, instead of just reacting and just living in this world of like, I’m going to, I’m upset. So, I’m going to post a photo online, or I’m going to, like, do something, no, like, stop and cry, or yell or breathe or do something so that you can actually, like, enjoy your life. And so, you can actually be in a more centered place, you know, and keep people around you, keep good people around you.

Victoria Volk  32:07
Yeah, I resonate with so much of what you said. Just recently, I was having a conversation with someone, and I use the line like we do in grief recovery work, you don’t hurt people, who hurt people.

Nicky Scorpio  32:19
Yes. Wish everyone knew, I wish there was an app that could just go up when somebody says something or does something.

Victoria Volk  32:25
Yeah, like a reminder. Like, hey, that wasn’t nice, are you hurting? Like what happened to you? You know, and that’s the thing too, like doctors, if you go in, you’re not feeling good about, you know, you’re down or whatever. What happened to you know, you’re never asked what happened to you, you know, the heart, the energy of the heart permeates like six feet outside of our bodies, like our energy.

Nicky Scorpio  32:49
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  32:50
And we can choose what energy that’s going to be. Now I’m not saying don’t feel what you’re going through, don’t I am a huge proponent. You got to sit with it to heal it right? You got to feel it to heal it. But like you said, it’s like, there has to come a time where you just get sick of your own crap, or you get sick of your own. You’re sick of where you’re at in life. Is there a defining moment for you? That is like that that you can pinpoint?

Nicky Scorpio  33:25
There there I forget; I don’t even know who said this. I heard it. And it was on audio. And it was basically like the simple version of it was instead of instead of being angry, be curious, what really led me to having peace and to having freedom is having that curiosity of like, why am I feeling this way? Why when this person says this to me? Why do I feel this way? And why when this other person says this to me like this? I’m okay with this, like, why can’t I feel? Okay? Not necessarily happy? But like, why can’t I just be secure with who I am. And that was a huge one for me. And then I learned about projecting where you talked about how hurt people hurt people. So, life is a life is a movie life is a show and people all have their different shows that are all going on at once. So, when somebody comes from a household where they’re taught, like, don’t express your feelings, bottle it inside, let people see that you’re beautiful, let people see that you’re polished, that person is going to grow up and have anger issues. And when you don’t live within their means of what beauty is or what success is. They are going to project their anger that they haven’t processed on to you. These these were two things that for me, I was like, oh, so everyone who because like I’m not a saint, I might be named after one but I’m not I’m a human being just like everyone else. And you know, like, when I can understand like, I can make mistakes like I I am imperfect and that’s okay, right? But when you’re around people that are perfectionist, and they don’t know how to express and communicate in a healthy way that you can do better. If you take that personally, it’s just going to reinforce this, this victim thing. However, again, I learned because I’m hanging out with people that that are traveling that have millions of dollars that have everything that I’ve ever wanted. And you get one person who has deep seated anger issues, they’re very, very toxic in their conversation behind the scenes, right? But then when they get around other people, they’re all smiles, and everything’s all good. And then I get around someone else who has everything. And they’re an angel, and they give and they’re generous in their kind, and they’re so and I learned no matter what, rich, poor, black, white, everything, all the different titles that connect us and divide us. There are people that get the word human. And there are people that that haven’t processed their emotions, and they’re projecting this anger and this insecurity onto them. So, for me, instead of taking it personally, I started to get curious and started to say, like, wow, that person, if that person spoke to me that way, imagine how they’re speaking to themselves. And for me, again, like that gave me freedom that gave me peace and an understanding. And now I have compassion. Instead of being like, oh, look at this person, let’s cancel them, like, no, let’s have a conversation. Let’s get to know them, you know?

Victoria Volk  36:27
I say this on every episode, but I just got full body chills. Because you speak my language, you’re speaking my language. I was very angry. I, you know, my father passed away when I was eight, I watched him slowly decline over two years. And it absolutely wreaked havoc on my relationship, in my household with others, and I grew up very angry. It’s that trauma, that grief is cumulative, it’s cumulatively negative. And so, all these things that stacked up for you, all my experiences that stacked up for me, anybody listening, your experiences, they accuse me accumulate, and they accumulate this gunk within us. And if we don’t sweep our doorstep, right, we don’t clean our doorstep, we’re, we’re spreading that to everyone around us. And that’s why I’m so passionate about the grief recovery work. It’s sweeping your own doorstep; it’s taking 1% responsibility for your life. Just 1% Just 1% it’s like you’re not taking you know, if you can do that, it gives you hope that you can forgive yourself. Give yourself compassion. And like you said I think when you go through so many different traumatic and grief experiences throughout your life, and you finally wake up to this potential that you didn’t even know you had within yourself. Yeah. And you feel hope there’s no stopping you. You don’t have to be in that place forever.

Nicky Scorpio  38:13
Yeah, there’s if you’re familiar with Gary Vaynerchuk, Gary V, I think you’re talking about education online that’s that’s a person who really also was like my cup of coffee like my emotional cup of coffee starting today because one of what I like about his energy is he’s very raw. And it’s very much like you just got to get over what you’re going through like sometimes we have a friend who does that for us where like you you get out of a relationship and you’re sad and your curtains are drawn down and you like haven’t shaved or showered or whatever the case may be and then a friend comes in and says like hey dude like you got to get up like you got to go for it and and the world needs more people like that we need that kind of like you got to get over it like no one it’s it’s rough to hear but it’s like I’ve never seen the Devil Wears Prada and recently I watched it you know with with Katie and and there’s a scene where he’s basically one of the characters is saying like, you want for somebody to pat you on the head and say for a baby. And that’s the thing is that when when you have abandonment issues, abandonment issues are wild because I don’t know if it’ll ever stop but again, at least I know that it’s there. But when you have abandonment issues, the layers and layers of how it affects your career of how it affects your personal life out affects your relationship the relationships that you choose the people that you choose to be around and and when you can can understand like, it might be a little bit harsh, but when you can just say nobody is going to pick me up nobody is going to say like oh poor baby, it’s okay. Because I’m not a little child anymore. I have the spirit of a child I have the energy of a child and I’m never going to give that up. You know, because that’s that’s a gift. When when you can understand that you need to pick yourself up and You need to just say you know what everybody is every This was my thing was it like everybody is going through something everybody has has had like a difficult story. And some people are just going and going and going, and I want to be that way. So you know what I’ve been beat up enough in life and but more so I beat myself up enough I created a story out of all of the stuff that I went through, I could have told a completely different story, I could have interpreted everything in a completely different way and been a completely different person. And, and when I can just say, Alright, cool, like, I get it, I don’t need to be a victim, I don’t need to, you know, hang out with people that are victims, I understand that it’s difficult to navigate through this. But you know, I need to conserve my energy so that I can do greater things and not operate from a place of guilt or shame. Now, I’m now I’m good. And then I can actually do greater work and I can be a better person because like, I feel complete, and I feel good enough for myself. You know, instead of wanting that validation from our moms from our dads, you know, and looking back at the story and being like, Oh, if only I had no, Oh, you got what you got and and love it and enjoy it. Because like Tony Robbins said, if you’re going to hate your mom, if you’re going to be angry at your mom love her for what she gave to you Same thing for your dad, or whatever it is right? Like if you’re going to be angry at this person, you better thank them, because they gave you gifts of not being a victim of standing up and being a better human being, you know, so it’s it’s a double-edged sword perspective.

Victoria Volk  41:30
One thing I’ve always I’ve been pondering for a while since I, I’ve done the deep work with grief recovery on myself, is that, like, do we have to have like this, I think what I think a truth that I’ve discovered, and I don’t know if this is true for you, but a belief that I’ve come to feel is that we all have this loss, like we’ll have another loss, you know, because grief is cumulative. So there comes a point, like a rock bottom for grief, where you do get sick of your own crap, or you do like, I’m tired of feeling this way. And when you were talking about how you just really started to ask got curious, like that that’s exactly parallel to my experience. Like, I was like, why am I keep Why do I keep feeling this way? For me? It was in 2014? Like, why am I doing this? Why do Why do I get into this psychological loop? Every day? And I got curious. And when we get curious, we seek answers. Yeah. And when we seek answers, we’re looking, actively participating in our lives looking for something to help us give us that answer. 100% Yeah, that’s the key difference. And the thought I’ve been pondering, it’s like, well, geez, why couldn’t I have had Why couldn’t that have happened when I was like, 23 instead of like, I don’t know, 3637 38? You know, like, why did it have to take another 10 years? And that’s the thing I’ve been pondering, you know, what are your thoughts on that?

Nicky Scorpio  43:14
I feel like, if you look at different places in the world, because like, again, I’ve studied a lot of different religions and faiths and belief systems. And I was talking earlier about the past and it’s a 10-day silent meditation, and it’s more so in places like India, Bangladesh, and their Eastern philosophies, like I got curious about Buddhism, right. And one of the things that I like about Buddhism is it’s really more about like, detachment about observing, just observing. And I feel like again, like this is a cultural thing where you you for people who have traveled when you go to other parts of the world you will for the most part you will see that people are genuinely happier than than Americans and again, that’s a generalization and it’s because there there is a sense of culture right? Like you know, you know your significance you know where you come from, so you’re not constantly trying to like aim for some obtainable goal whatever. But that you also have like a deeper understanding and things that you and I are talking about are things that are kind of like common knowledge in these religions and in these practices and in these cultures. And you know, like even in like India, they talk about how life is the great illusion and and when and if I had grown up, knowing these things, my mom again my mom, very much educated me and told me a lot of different stories and I know a lot of different things. But as a society, that you know if if, if we, you know, again now is a great time if you have a kid is as difficult as it is now you can actually tap that time to to teach your kids if you have have kids, I don’t. But if you do, you can that you can teach them these kind of concepts of like, like what you were saying were hurt people hurt people, it’s a very simple conversation to understand that life is an illusion, you look at this person that you think this person has everything, you don’t know how they are, when when there’s not a filter on them. And when the life isn’t edited, you don’t know that person. And I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it, I’ve hung out with people, because I’ve been in a relationship, where I hang out with people who normally don’t hang out with people like myself, and I’m like, wow, I wish, I wish that there was some way to just show people this to say, like, you don’t have money, and you look at this person who cuts you off in traffic, you’re like, Oh, of course, they’re driving a Mercedes. Of course, someone like that would do that. If you had 30 seconds within their mind, like you would drop all of that ego, you know, and, and I just, the reason why it takes so long is is because we’re just simply not taught this, and I’m a big believer in education. You know, I’m a big believer in the power of education. And, and, for me, I got all of my education. While I wasn’t in school, I just was constantly curious again, and I feel like, for anyone listening, if you can just really be curious if you can really challenge yourself. When you’re having conversations with people just do like a one-week challenge, like a seven week, seven day challenge, or like a one month challenge, but start start small. And just listen to what people say around you when you’re having conversations with people. And and if you can just observe and not make them wrong, not make them right, not make them better, not not make them dumb, but just listen to them. And just be curious from there. That opens up doors, you know, but yeah, if we were if we were taught these concepts would be a different world, but we’re getting there. And because of amazing people like yourself, so

Victoria Volk  46:57
Thank you for that. Absolutely love, love, love that challenge, challenge accepted. You’ve said so many good things today, many, many good golden nuggets. Do you have one tip that you would give another hurting heart today?

Nicky Scorpio  47:22
Yeah, I would say because sometimes, sometimes we forget what other people are going through, or we forget that other people don’t have people around. Like people, people are curious, but then they don’t often have people around them. And it’s I feel like that’s something to really to remember is i would i would say I would say if if you’re if you’re grieving right now, if you’ve lost someone, I would say it’s okay to grieve, I would say. Like when I lost my grandmother, that was one of the most difficult things I was actually with my my grandmother the on the last day, and it was a really beautiful experience. And it was also really sad because I was so close with my grandmother, she had the full life she lived to be 96. And there was someone in my life that when we were at the service where they said your grandma wouldn’t want for you to suffer, you should do something to celebrate her. And I think I think that’s an important thing to remember that yes, it’s okay to feel sad, that’s a that’s a natural thing, you you you share this amazing experience with this person and now they’re no longer there. If you’ve lost someone, or if you have gotten out of a relationship, remember that at the origin of whatever relationship romantic or nonromantic, that there was always love. And that regardless of how that person is or isn’t or speaks to you or no longer does speak to you that they they don’t want for you to suffer. You know in in that it’s okay to feel sad and to feel angry. It’s also really important to find a way to release it, even if you’re just going online and finding like how can not just Google just go online and just Google how to release anger and go down a rabbit hole but don’t don’t internalize it. Because there are so many people in this world that that get these terrible illnesses and disease because they keep this inside, and they think no one’s gonna understand. And they have all of these pressures, and they have all these people around them that they have to take care of. And if you just need to press timeout, and if and if you just need to grieve and grieve, but please don’t don’t tell people that you’re okay if you’re not okay you know, tell people like one of the things I love about Katie is that when when she’s upset when when you know we’d go to the grocery store, if the grocery store like the clerk says how’s it going today that generic conversation that we get, you know, X amount of times per day, she’ll say I’m not okay. Or she’ll say like, I’m angry, but I’m gonna get past it or something. So, but but it’s not like a sugar coated thing. It’s not just like, I’m, I’m good. You know, like, if you’re not, Okay, tell people that you’re angry, tell people that you’re sad, because 90% of all of the things that are going on why people need more pills and more medication and more stimulation than ever, is because we’re taught, just keep it inside. And there is a powerful, powerful feeling about being okay with not being okay. about, you know, being able to share with people what you’re feeling. And especially in the male community that you know, guys really need to express it and let it out. So we can have less cancer and less sickness and less stress in this world. Everyone is going through something right now and it’s okay. If you’re upset, even if you have a job, even if your workplace and you’re not feeling okay, it is okay. Our culture is going to start slowly changing where this is accepted. It’s starting to get there. But just express it, please just don’t internalize it, because it’s exhausting. It is exhausting. And I give you permission, if you can’t give yourself permission to release it, and let it go. And if you if you have kids, and if you have people, if you have people that you have to take care of tell them and just express it, please don’t keep it inside. That’s it.

Victoria Volk  51:48
Amen, amen. It is, I think coming. It’s like, you know, I want to say normalize grief. And it’s normal and natural. And the whole premise of me starting this podcast is for Grievers to share their stories because everyone has a story and everyone’s story matters. But it’s I think also about normalizing emotional honesty. Yeah. Yeah, making that normal to be honest. Yeah, I because if like you said it takes a tremendous amount of energy to lie to people’s faces. Do you like to be lied to? I don’t.

Nicky Scorpio  52:35
That’s the golden rule is a hardest rule is to treat people how you want to be treated. Yeah, yeah. And and, and again, I I really wish especially in the entertainment industry in the entrepreneur field in the artist field. I wish I wish people who are not not the successful artists, but more so like the upcoming artists who so desperately seeks fortune and fame and success, whatever that may be, I wish that that there would be more of a focus on I’m going to be more of myself and less trying to climb this ladder, thinking that I’ll get success because I wish people who were independent artists and who are upcoming entrepreneurs and thought leaders could just take a look behind the curtain and trust me when I tell you that people are just as human as you and are just as insecure as you and you know, just just I know it sounds cliche but just be yourself just just if some if somebody says something that you don’t like be true to yourself if somebody is saying something that that’s unacceptable or that’s or that’s rude or that’s racist or or that’s ignorant. It doesn’t matter if that person says that they can help you it doesn’t matter if that person has like the golden egg or whatever that you’re looking for that you think like oh this person is going to help me so I can just accept everything that they do and that they say No, stay true to yourself because then you’ll get better people around you the management the team that I have, you know burn it down group is amazing. I found two people that get the importance of what we’re talking about in music. Do you know how the music industry is it’s it’s under the table it’s smile in your face and stab you behind the back there are people now that are in the entertainment industry that wants to see good people win that want to see you know, relationships be promoted, that wants to see healthy love, like and that was for me turning down offers from people that had everything and I could have had it all but I was like, No, I don’t care if I’m gonna be 90 years old, trying to start like a career. I’d rather be authentic. I’d rather be true to myself. And again, I just want to have good people around me because I’ve had beautiful people that are not, not the greatest people around me that I’m just like, this like, who am I? You lose yourself. So don’t lose yourself. Please don’t lose yourself. Please.

Victoria Volk  55:05
Bingo. Bingo, you lose yourself, you you live into this identity of your pain.

Nicky Scorpio  55:13
Yeah

Victoria Volk  55:14
Unprocessed pain, you live into that identity. It’s almost like, like I said, I’ve said this many times before, but grief puts a veil over your face.

Nicky Scorpio  55:24
Yeah

Victoria Volk  55:25
It’s a veil you where you may not realize it, you don’t you don’t probably even recognize that you’re grieving. But just like the things that you said, the behaviors that we resort to, to make ourselves feel better, ask yourself the better question, why do I have this need to feel affirmation from all these other people? Why do I have this need to have X amount of dollars in my bank account? Why do I have this? You know, it’s like all these external things that we’re chasing? Yeah, this external influence that we desire, when the only influence that really matters, is within ourselves, is that’s what’s permeating out. Whatever is going up, and you know, whatever’s going on up here. That’s what you’re living out. Like, in your mind. You can’t see me pointing at my head. But, you know, it’s that’s what’s you’re living outwardly.

Nicky Scorpio  56:16
What’s interesting is, is that people, people can see if I were walking down the street, and I want a bad mood, people would know that about me, right? People can see things within us that we don’t see within ourselves, we just wake up in the morning and like, like, I’m Nikki, I just wake up and I shave and i and i moisturize and I talk with God, I meditate I do what I do, I drink my coffee. And that’s just me, and I just keep on going. And sometimes I just don’t even question it. And then somebody talks to me and they say something to me and I just react because I don’t even think about it. But but again earlier, like when when you start to slow down and and really question because I was saying earlier, like listen to other people speak listen to how you speak with yourself, listen to how you like if you meet somebody, and and they aren’t in your bubble, if they don’t dress the way that you like, if they don’t say things with you, like, look at that. And step into that. But understand what I’m getting at is understand in the same way, when you look at other people and you judge people and you see things within people, the people that you’re looking for, if you’re unhappy with your life with the with the company that you have around, you understand this. If you’re single, if you’re looking for love, if you’re looking for a career change, the people that are looking for you are looking for your best self. And that doesn’t mean putting on a smile and being cheesy and being inauthentic. But it means that there’s work to be done. Because if you want to get that relationship where you have loyalty, you have monogamy and you have everything that you’ve ever wanted and or you want that business partner or whatever, right? Like you need to be present. And you need to do what it takes to be present. Because you don’t need to keep meeting new people. You don’t need to keep networking. You need to go within yourself so that you can be present so that when that person comes by you and they talk with you, you’re actually happy you’re actually content with who you are. So, then all of a sudden you get this opportunity. You’re like where did this come from, I’ve been doing this X amount of years or I’ve been doing this over and over again, nothing’s ever happened. It’s because there’s something that you’re not seeing within yourself. And for me, that was that was a huge thing. And when I started really realizing that happy and successful people were seeing that there was grief within me that I hadn’t processed when I started processing and all of a sudden now, I have great people in my life, you know, so I think that’s, I think that’s an important thing to be said.

Victoria Volk  58:59
And it takes time to peel back all the layers. It’s never you never fully arrive. You know, like you said at Nirvana or the perfect life it’s ongoing.

Nicky Scorpio  59:11
Hey, give yourself permission though you can at least you know it takes time and that’s cool.

Victoria Volk  59:15
Exactly, yeah. You sure you don’t want a job as a grief recovery specialist You’d be a wonderful candidate I think.

Nicky Scorpio  59:25
Thank you, I’m open I’m open to it. I actually what’s interesting is right, when when you know COVID hit and turn the world upside down, so to speak. Like I had this whole plan I had this whole strategy with with music and everything and then I actually stopped because no one’s performing, no one’s touring. And then I started asking myself, like, what am I What am I doing at the root like what what am I about and I started doing content and and really focusing on this discussion that we’re having And, you know, for me, I actually before music, I wanted to be a psychologist, but I just didn’t have the patience to go through so many years of college and, and it wasn’t my calling but however however, I have always been interested in that and I’ve always been interested in psychology and yeah, like I I definitely for me music is is an entertainment is like a stepping stone for a bigger issue, you know, in this in this realm in which we’re talking but yeah, I definitely I, I love sharing with people and I love hearing people’s perspectives and and I’m a seeker like yourself, so yeah, I’m definitely I’m definitely open to it from me, for me I, you know, being able to, to be seen by people isn’t to feed my ego, it’s there’s, there’s a real issue that’s going on. And, you know, again, you see this when when you travel and when you interact with different people, the more work that you do, the more you realize other people don’t have that and, and just being able to share like when I’ve talked with when I’ve talked with like teenagers or I’ve talked with like moms or and I people share with me like, there’s this weird thing that I have this beautiful gift that God gave me where people will tell me things that they don’t normally tell people. And it’s interesting when that happens, and then you can share like a healthier perspective. And it’s like, oh, I never thought about like I remember talking with a mom in Whole Foods. And she was saying something to me about somebody was like being verbally abusive to her and I said something along the lines of hurt people hurt people and it was like a light bulb went off. And I’m like, Oh, that’s right. People don’t understand this because look at the world that we’re living in. You know, so I Yeah, I definitely I’m open to that because I for me the money the money comes in the money goes in the money, or that no, no one I heard was the money comes in the money grows, which I like better. Um, there’s a bigger issue that that that’s going on, where people need to come together. And if you have information if you know something that can make people better it’s time to share it’s time to share, you know?

Victoria Volk  1:02:19
Hence, this podcast.

Nicky Scorpio  1:02:22
Yes.

Victoria Volk  1:02:23
Because people we learn from other people’s experiences to other people’s stories and through community.

Nicky Scorpio  1:02:30
Yeah, I wouldn’t be here without the amazing like shaman Derek, Harry Paul, you know, Katie Janaka she’s all over the place podcast. My friend Jeff Korea, he owns Starfire water, which is amazing, you know, all of these all of these great people, I wouldn’t you to the hashtags that I found on Instagram, you know, like, I would I would be right out there confused, angry and sad and feeling like the world’s gonna turn upside down and it’s over. Thankfully, like, I have always been curious. And one other thing that I wanted to talk about really briefly is I feel like, one of the things that really has has given me peace, and I feel like it’s starting to happen more now. Is and we briefly talked about this at the beginning is that we need to accept that people believe differently than us, we need to be okay with that and celebrate that this canceled culture. ideology needs to stop, we need to stop trying to cancel people because they’re ignorant to our ways into our, our knowledge in the same way. When we make mistakes, if we have a job, or if we have a relationship we want for our partner or for our boss or for whoever to forgive us and understand the word Great. Well, it’s not a one-sided thing. It’s both ways that we need to understand. Not everyone thinks the way that I do not everyone believes in the same God or the same deity or the same thing not and that’s okay. Like, I’m okay with that. You know, and I hope I hope that people can, can understand that you’re going to meet people along the way that think that you’re weird, think that you’re different. Think that you’re off and that you’re crazy, or that you’re flat out ignorant. But if you can, if you can accept that and and not that you have to accept that person in your life. But if you can embrace the fact that people are different, then you’ve already won you’ve already gotten you know, the victory.

Victoria Volk  1:04:43
Yeah, except that it’s an opinion and the only opinion matters, that matters is the one you have about yourself.

Nicky Scorpio  1:04:49
Yes.

Victoria Volk  1:04:50
And my grief, you know, with the election, and I didn’t plan to go here but my grief with the election. And I even share it on my social media is that, you know, we talk about unity, unity, unity, and let’s come together. And then I see people on Instagram just like, if you don’t believe how I believe and you didn’t vote how I voted, you are not welcome here. There is no room for you here. So, I was like, oh my gosh, thanks. are you adding to the dome to the discord and the negativity in the separation?

Nicky Scorpio  1:05:28
Yeah, I think I think we can, I think we can briefly talk about this, because I’ve had this conversation with my mom, you know, Berkeley, Berkeley, California, is very much how Berkeley is it’s, it’s, you know, people who don’t live on the west coast, a lot of times will tease people who are in California or whatever, or, you know, talk about like, conspiracy theorists and stuff like that. And I have friends who are Republican, I have friends that are democratic, I have friends from all different walks of life, some of their beliefs, I don’t, I don’t share their beliefs. But I again, like I, for me, for me, it’s a simple, it’s a simple thing of like, I want for people to accept and to embrace me. So, I would be hypocritical. If somebody came up to me and was like this president, this person should be president, this person should be president. And I put them down, because my beliefs and my thoughts for me are valid. So So therefore, what another person comes into this world and share something and their thoughts aren’t valid, like somehow they’re not a human being, you know, and for me, that’s the biggest frustration with all of this is that people need to stop thinking that when one person becomes president, or when one thing changes, that things are going to get better, we need to say, you know what, I don’t agree with you. I don’t agree with your philosophy. But however, like I can try to understand, I can be curious. And and I can maybe learn a different way and not and still stay true to myself, you know, because there is there is this huge thing of like, like, there’s articles where it’s like, oh, look, the republicans are are putting down the democrats beat. And there’s all this talk about votes being fake. But look at how the republicans were being this way, when when they were making fun of the democrats for the votes, not counting whatever, like, and it’s silly, it’s like, you’re doing the same thing. You’re being children right now. Like, stop it, like, just accept accepted someone’s different than you and just be okay with that, like, it’s the same way you’d want for somebody to do to you.

Victoria Volk  1:07:35
And go, what example are we setting for kids right now? in society, right? And it’s really scary to me that, that I see this stuff, and these people are parents. And it’s like, whoa, like, I would hope that if my child is different, or doesn’t vote, however, someone else calls that they will be given grace for their differing opinions, and that my children would give other kids that same grace for their differing opinions? Do we really want a world of minions and robots? I mean, that’s my biggest question here. It’s diversity, you know, and there’s a thing to like, we’re supposed to embrace. This is my thought that I couldn’t remember earlier. We are told to embrace diversity, right? We are a country of diversity. And yet, we do not accept diversity. Because if we really truly did, we would understand that there is there are diversity, also in stories, and people’s pain, in their grief, that we all share grief that we all share. Yeah, just different. Yeah, and that is the one thing that that unites us all. So how about we embrace that everyone is going through something and it’s different than what it is from you what it is for me, but it doesn’t make it less it doesn’t make it less traumatic for them. That is the that is the most hurtful thing that anyone can do to a griever is to compare, and yeah, go ahead.

Nicky Scorpio  1:09:16
I would say like, you know, if if there’s anyone I’m really big into like family into into kids like it’s like for me, like children are everything and having healthy children as well. There are everything and if there’s if there’s anyone who is a new parent, or is going to be a parent, one of one of the things where I feel like really makes such a major change in a kid’s life, is bring them around diversity. Like I grew up, literally like I wish I had like a photo that there’s every color of the rainbow, every kind of background and walk of life. So, when I when I came into the world as an adult, nothing surprised me. Nothing shocked me and I understood unrespected everyone else’s culture whereas when you live in, in a world where you don’t travel and and you’re a small-minded people, and nobody’s traveling, and nobody’s trying to look at anything else except for other than, than their belief, then then everything is scary and everything is unknown, and everything is different and this kind of stuff. And if you can just try No, it’s difficult to travel right now. But if if you can really bring bring kids or bring yourself bring your inner child around different cultures, and and just show that to them so that when they when they grow older, when you know, TV is telling you this person is scarier this way is better this way. You already know, you know what, you know, and that’s your truth. That’s the truth. It’s not this way or that way. It’s It’s It’s undeniable. You know, like, yeah, its diversity, what a concept. That’s what makes America great.

Victoria Volk  1:10:55
Here’s the other thing on that, thank you. That’s what makes America great. To think back on that, it’s, I don’t think you need to lose leave home, to experience diversity or to understand it or learn about it, right? I think it’s actually instill a thirst for learning. To seeking, to seeking those diverse stories out to seeking like, watch National Geographic, you know?

Nicky Scorpio  1:11:30
I love following nature hashtags and stuff like I love, I love that, I’m big, big nature guy.

Victoria Volk  1:11:37
And the History Channel and I mean, we watch the history channels a family, it’s like learning. We watched Cice. Yeah, there’s a channel called vice.

Nicky Scorpio  1:11:47
Vice is so cool. The History Channel is so cool. There’s there’s so much like, when I’m really big into the History Channel, all the different shows about like, I forget the guy’s name, Vaughn Diedrich, or something like that, like he’s been dedicated his whole life and found the original scripts from like, the Bible, and how different it is. And they talk about how like aliens and in stuff like that stuff that they would never teach in school. Yes, seeking knowledge is is for me, like I have to because if I don’t, then I’ll, I’ll lose my mind. I have to keep on learning and see what else is out there.

Victoria Volk  1:12:24
And that’s the thing. It’s like, when my kids asked me, well, why did why does this person believe that? Or why does I don’t know? But why don’t you research about that? And you can maybe put yourself in their shoes and understand why they believe that. You know, it’s Yeah, our diversity is our backgrounds. Our diversity is our grieving stories. It’s not just what you see at face value, right?

Nicky Scorpio  1:12:52
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s huge. Good on you. Yeah, no, I definitely.

Victoria Volk  1:12:58
Embracing the whole human.

Nicky Scorpio  1:13:01
Yeah. Yeah. And especially especially with with children, because again, like kids are so resilient. And when you can, when you can give a healthy perspective to a kid at a young age, they’ll understand these concepts. Like when you you tell you tell the kid like I remember, there’s So Katie, her her, her nephew, he’s, he’s right at that age, kind of, like, Where, where I was when, like, everything kind of started changing. And I remember, you know, there was a moment we were hanging out and he got upset with his sisters. It’s like sibling stuff, and that not really a big issue. And he reacted in a big way. And I said, you know, it’s okay to be angry, but it’s not okay, when you’re angry, and you take out that anger onto other people around you. And, and it was like, click, and he got it. And, and that’s the thing is when you’re around kids, like, it’s so important to give off that healthy, you know, perspective and, and really dropped those little gems, because it’s not it’s not it is available, but it’s not promoted. That makes sense. Like they could they could find out this information. But it’s not what that recommends. It’s not what’s being advertised. It’s getting there. But yeah, it’s good on you for sharing that with your kids. Because kids, kids will get it kids. Kids want to connect with diversity. They want to be around diversity. They don’t want to just have the same old same, they want to learn they want to grow and expand by nature.

Victoria Volk  1:14:32
Yeah, they’re natural sponges. And we learn everything we learn about grief and how to process it by the age of 12. By 12, we already learned 75% 12-15. We’ve learned 75% on how to process and go through grief. So, my piggyback to that what you just shared is that it starts with us as the parents, caregivers, the caretakers, anyone who is in charge of the well being and welfare The whole child. And we all play a role in that. And I’ll tell you one thing. I am a better parent today than I was 15 years ago when I first had my son. And I have grief around that, honestly. Because I wish I would have had the self awareness that I do now. I wish I had that, then, you know, I would have been, I was the angry parent. Yeah, angry a lot. And it starts with us. Yeah, it starts with us. Because that generational learning that will continue on until we unpack our own crap.

Nicky Scorpio  1:15:43
yeah, well, there’s there’s two things, there’s two things I want to say. One is a quick one vision, the owner of the creator of mind Valley, talked about how he had unhealthy beliefs where he heard his parents talking about, they had to choose to give a gift or not give a gift for Christmas. And so, he grew up with unhealthy he heard that and he translated that into an unhealthy belief. And then he idolized a teacher, and the teacher was struggling, they had to help out the teacher, so that the teacher could pay rent, everybody got together. And so, he, in his mind created a belief that, that teachers in order to be a teacher, that, you know, it’s it’s, it’s more authentic to struggle, and so he’d make hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and he would give it all away, right? So, there’s that aspect. And then second, so it’s being it’s being aware, it’s being aware of what we’re sharing, and speaking about around children. Because again, they are very, they’re so open. And, but they also can, you know, miss-translate things, but also my, my mom had this conversation with me. She’s had it several times, and recently, she had it and it was like, her, you know, sharing this thing of, like, oh, I could have been a better mom to you. And, you know, like, I wish that circumstances had been better. And there was all this, like, guilt and all this shame. And I started sharing, kind of, like what was going on in my life, cuz my mom and I talk, you know, fairly regularly, but there’s a lot that she knows, and there’s a lot that she doesn’t know. And for me, what I would say to any, you know, parents out there who feel any kind of like guilt or shame is that, again, like you don’t know, you don’t know what’s being written into their book, you don’t know why things are happening, the way that they’re happening. And I feel like, the best thing that we can do is, is to say like that you’re good enough. And that you’re and that you matter, and that, you know, if you have any weird or different ideas, that they’re cool, because kids are going to translate things you’re going to hear. And it’s not the parents’ fault. It’s not It’s not my fault that I heard my mom talking about ABC. And so like, I made this whole story of like, you know, this means this and that means that it’s it’s more so of, I’m going on my journey, and I’m learning my lessons and, and things are happening to me so that like I can do something with this information. That’s that’s my work in this life. For me, like, That’s the meaning of life is like, we all have our own things that we’re learning, we all have our own things that we’re going through. And you know, and people come into our lives and they come and go, and it’s what we do with that and you know, what, what our character says about us how we choose to react to these things we all go through but just having just having that support system, just having people again around me, and it’s not about like, people saying like, oh, you’re doing a great job. But my the most successful people in life, the the common thing that they all shared is is that they had parents and they had people around them that whenever they had a weird or different idea, they were always celebrated in that way there was always like, yes, you can be this way. Yes, like, there there’s a I don’t know if it was the Vinci, I think it was the Vinci where, like, he grew up believing even though he wasn’t rich, that he grew up believing that he was rich. And so, he was able to accomplish things and, and so art and be this legendary painter, because he believed this and, you know, and just having that belief system, you know, is is such an important thing. But I think for for parents out there, let go of any expectations of like, oh, I wish that I had been a better parent, I wish that my my kid felt more loved or that you know, they were able to have this kind of life because you really really don’t know what resilience they’re getting and what lessons are getting out of it. The best you can do is is just to really be there for your kids and say like you’re going to go through hard times you’re going to go through difficult times. There’s going to be a point in your life where life is not going to make sense and you’re not going to know What to do, and that’s okay. And I’m here for you. And you need to know that even if you’re embarrassed, even if you feel that it’s a terrible thing, I unconditionally love you. And I’m going to be here for you. And, and I believe in you, and you’re good enough. And and, and that’s it and just start from there, you know?

Victoria Volk  1:20:19
I just want to bring up one point, the thought that children are resilient. And this isn’t to poopoo on you saying that, but I just want to highlight the fact though, that when we say that the children are resilient, we can sometimes minimize sure of their experience. And because I know for me personally, I was only eight. I don’t know really what was going on, you know, like, we underestimate children. And so, using that language of they’re resilient. It’s almost like that they’ll get through this, they’ll get through this. And I know that’s not your intention. I know that’s not your intention.

Nicky Scorpio  1:21:08
Yeah. Not at all to downplay it. I, I think it’s more so I think it’s more so that that. So, you know, kids, kids are more of an open book, when you when you talk with somebody who you know is a little bit older, they’ve already seen it, they’ve already been there, they’ve already done it, right. So, like, we all like, you know, you know, this, like we all experienced, we all experience grief, right? If you can have a conversation, when I say resilient, what I mean is, when you have a conversation with the child, they are more open to the concept that you’re teaching. So like when I was younger, and I went through what I went through, I was still optimistic, even though my my life was like, my home went like this, and everything went like this and in my mind, and then all of a sudden, I went from being again, I went from being this happy go lucky child to just being angry and comparing myself, but but when when I understood why I was feeling this way, that from me, like everything clicked. So when you have a conversation with the child to say, again, like you’re at a certain point in your life, things are not going to make sense. Or you’re going to look at somebody else and think their life is better. You have have the knowing within yourself, to know that your picture will be painted beautifully, their notes, I know it’s cliche, but your your book will be written beautifully, or whatever the references that you want to give that your life. Although it might not make sense at this point, there will be a time after that happens, where you see why all of this stuff happens. And it will be a blessing. If you’re optimistic, if you have that healthy perspective. It’s not to say, kids can just go through whatever because I’ve seen even now that I’m older, like I’ve, I’ve seen kids that are going through stuff and I’m just like, wow, and the people that are involved with these kids who aren’t their parents are looking and saying, Oh my god, I can’t believe his kids are going through this. And I’m like, No, but their kids that go that have at the hardest, that that do have the brilliance to be able to, to to rise from it are the ones that change the world, the kid that that goes through the tragedy that loses a parent or somebody to a terrible disease becomes a doctor and they and they help 1000s of people so it’s it’s it’s difficult, but it’s you know, within that conversation, it’s it’s that kids are more open to understanding why they’re making the choices that they’re making. And and that you know, like they can have peace within who they are. You know, if I had had somebody telling me when I was in high school, you know, that this girl who said this to you that that made you gain 90 pounds, she was hurting inside and she was angry at herself. I might not have had so much junk food, you know. So like that that kind of thing I’m saying more so to clarify.

Victoria Volk  1:24:12
Yes, and that is the key thing, communication, that is the key thing. And we are not going to be the initiators of that communication with those kids. We are uncomfortable with our own what’s going on with us, right? And what’s going on in the situation. You know, my mom did not have a clue how to process what she was going through. She therefore was emotionally unavailable to help me do that. So that’s your 100% on on that communication. That is the key and to if you don’t know where to do what to do or where to start and seek that education. You know, it’s we have a book the grief recovery Institute, john James Russell Friedman wrote an excellent book. It’s called when children grieve. There’s your education. I facilitate the program in a group group setting online to help you do that, to help you learn those skills and education. So there there is education out there. And like you said, like, the online resources, there’s I mean, you don’t need a PhD in Hard Knocks.

Nicky Scorpio  1:25:26
Yeah, um, one like to your, to your point, recently, like, a couple years ago, there was a woman that I spoke with who introduced me to just really like went in depth about being an introvert and recommended a couple books to me. And, you know, the library now has audio books where you can get knowledge for free, you can just, if you’re not an actual, if you’re not a person who likes to actually hold a book, which holding a book and turning the pages is beautiful, and it’s a whole experience within itself. However, if you’re not that person, which is okay, and you’re busy, you’re on the go, you can get audiobooks, for free. When I started really understanding the concept of being an introvert, and what a gift it is, in a society that’s very extroverted. And again, as always, like no, you got to put on a smile, you got to be good, you got to be upbeat, you got to have energy, you got to have this and that, when I started realizing this is everything that I’ve been trying to explain to people where it’s such a gift to be introverted, it’s such a gift to to, to say, like, I’m going to go within myself, and I’m going to study and I’m going to, you know, like, learn these kind of concepts. When I understood that, for me, that was, I think, actually, that would really be one of the biggest moments where I got freedom was like, Yes, like, when I lived in, in Hollywood, like I would introduce to people that were producers that owned agencies that were living in bel air that were living in dream homes, and, and then and I’d be introduced to this person, like, you know, this is gonna be, you know, the greatest person you’ve ever met, and they have all these opportunities, and I could look right into their eye and say, like, something’s off, something’s off here. And when I understood that, that that’s part of the gift of being an introvert, then I could expand from there instead of saying, like, I should be networking, I should be like this person. I just like producers in music, music producers are often very, very introverted people, they can just live in a cave and just make music and never ever, ever come out. Even Dr. Dre like Dr. Dre, is very introverted to a certain degree like he could at the beginning of his career, like he could lock himself in his in his house and just make music and that was it. You know, but when when you understand these kinds of concepts, and for anybody out there who doesn’t like meeting people who get social anxiety, chances are, you’re an introvert. And there are gifts that come with being an introvert, and extroverted people crave people like us, because they just want to keep meeting people. And they don’t often see the person that they’re meeting with is not a good person. So, if something feels off to you, then that’s a gift. And you shouldn’t doubt that you should listen to yourself, and you should understand this part of yourself and keep expanding on it. There’s things you can do so that you can expand on this gift. And everywhere you go no matter where you’re like, nope, this person isn’t for me, this person isn’t for me, this situation isn’t for me. And and that’s it. You know, yeah, knowledge, knowledge is power. Education, what a concept.

Victoria Volk  1:28:31
Introverts unite, you’re an introvert. And I never really thought of it as gift either you feel like you grew up feeling like something’s wrong with you, right?

Nicky Scorpio  1:28:42
Yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:28:43
Such a jam-packed conversation, I absolutely love this. I don’t even know like I’ve so many notes jotted down, I’m not even sure where I’m going to pull a clip for this episode. It’s been a joy, getting to know you to meet you. Definitely a light in the world and keep shining. You know, you see a need in the industry in which you work. And I’ve no doubt that you’re creating ripples. Even if it’s an you know, your immediate circles of people that you know, we are the some of the five people that we surround ourselves with, right? I’m not sure who said that. But I’ve read that a long time ago, some entrepreneurs said that.

Nicky Scorpio  1:29:32
You’re a pioneer yourself, and it takes one to know one and, you know, just keep I acknowledge you and you know, we need to we need to just acknowledge acknowledge people around us and you know, and we need to really, as a society outside of myself as like an artist like we need to acknowledge and give more power and more compassion to people like yourself which are educators and teachers. Like it’s not easy it’s not it’s not always fun people do it because it’s a necessity because they have to and we need to like myself included like to hold myself accountable that anytime that there is somebody who is teaching and sharing a lot of times they have it the hardest and if you know you’re listening and you know somebody who’s an educator or a teacher or someone who is a thought leader to really it’s not that they’re more important it’s not their emotions are more important than yours it’s to say like give them that encouragement and and to tell them how awesome they are because although people might seem like they have it all together you know, you never know and again that’s that’s the power of community so you know, thank you for doing what you’re doing. I know that it’s not easy and I acknowledge you and I think it’s great work that you’re doing, and I have every bit of faith that this will continue to get cooler and cooler and bigger and brighter and I appreciate you thank you for doing what you’re doing and for having me, it’s a gift.

Victoria Volk  1:31:01

Thank you for that, Nikky. It’s uh yeah that’s my grief cool, not in like a, not in like a, you know.

Nicky Scorpio  1:31:10
If you will hang out in the dark kind of way but yeah.

Victoria Volk  1:31:13
Yeah, it’s here to stay right it’s not going anywhere. It’s it’s not this. Let’s like, take off the disguise of the monster that we look at it like and that it feels like for us it’s like this looming breathe numbing, horrible moss, this beast, you know, that is all consuming and there’s hope. There’s hope. You’re sitting here talking to me. And the life that you’ve endured and the things that you’ve gone through. That Nicky’s hope you guys and the people that I bring on my podcast or hope, their hope bringers and so I don’t take my guests lightly. And so, thank you for sharing your story. And where can people find you if they want to connect with you?

Nicky Scorpio  1:32:05
Yeah, I’m at yournickyscorpio on Instagram. I’m part of a collective on YouTube, the sophisticated psychos, we’re doing a lot of content in the same kind of realm. And those are kind of the main places I have distanced myself from Facebook because I’m tired of what we’re talking about earlier. I’m tired of angry emojis. I’m really on on Instagram. But yeah, definitely keep in touch I’m going to be releasing some really really cool music that is really about everything. It’s about connectivity. And what’s really cool about it is I’ve connected with an amazing scientist and there’s going to be healing within the music there’s going to be frequencies within the music we’re going to bring that to the forefront for people who’ve been doing this for decades and for centuries we’re going to make all of this healing all of this Eastern philosophies we’re gonna make this mainstream and make it cool so yeah, please connect with me if you ever need a friend no judgement you have a safe space and me a direct message I’m here we’re all human and sometimes we feel alone and you’re not alone.

Victoria Volk  1:33:16
You’re not alone. And that’s they can’t by neural beats right or something like that, correct?

Nicky Scorpio  1:33:22
There’s by neural beats there’s there’s frequencies there’s so really quickly if you go on to YouTube, there’s a amazing documentary by a scientist who discovered the HIV virus lukeman taglia he’s French if you look up that he basically he takes he takes just look up water documentary Lucas Elysee. I believe in montignier, he’s French, but he basically takes a recording where he puts he puts the virus inside of the water takes a recording sends it off to a lab 1000s of miles away they played in water that’s just normal everyday just unaffected water they play the sound the sound of the virus and they recreate the virus inside of the water so in in he’s showing you can do this with cures and all these other sciences we’re trying to stop him say that he’s crazy because they want to silence this kind of conversation. Also, in the tech world in San Francisco they’re using the same frequencies that resonate in certain pyramids in Egypt for levitation so so what what I’m what I’m doing what we’re doing, and when I say we the sophisticated cycles we connected with the subtle energies in name and its quantum physics. So, it’s it’s putting, it’s putting the energy of and this is all scientists, this is all documented. This is all fact-based stuff. This isn’t me. This isn’t the conspiracy theorists that I lead with fact-based evidence that the more you you live in the same way when you say loving things into water changes, the actual shape changes the structure of it. So, we’re putting this it’s by neural beats are one way of doing it, it’s different, it’s going to be silent. It’s not that you’re going to notice it, but you’re going to feel it the more you listen to it, the better you feel. This has been around for centuries. It’s just time to you know, we’re moving backwards when we’re moving forwards at the same time our ancestors used to talk about this kind of stuff, so we’re just making it you know, giving it the respect, it deserves again.

Victoria Volk  1:35:25
We could have a whole nother conversation about just energy because as a Reiki Master, boy, my eyes have been open like wide open energy.

Nicky Scorpio  1:35:34
Have you ever heard Donna Eden Gino? Donna Eden?

Victoria Volk  1:35:39
Yes, actually Yes.

Nicky Scorpio  1:35:40
Energy medicine. I studied with her. I met her through vision in mind Valley and that’s a whole other Yeah, I could definitely anytime I love talking about energy, because I can show I can show people like I can actually. I’ve learned teachers. Yeah, but yet energy is everything. And we’re that’s what’s cool is that we’re Lastly, I don’t want to keep on talking about this. But we are going this is the world that we’re going into. So no fear. If you feel like everything’s being split apart. We’re actually going into an exciting time. We just have to unlearn and we’re healing and it’s going to get more and more and more exciting because of people like us because of this amazing community. So don’t give up hope. It’s actually getting better, okay? and that’s it.

Victoria Volk  1:36:18
Can’t raise the vibration of the world overnight. Right? Each one of us.

Nicky Scorpio  1:36:24
Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, thanks again. You’re awesome. You’re rock star.

Victoria Volk  1:36:29
Ah, likewise, this was awesome. Thank you so much. Again. I’m going to link everything that we just talked about in the show notes, the youtube documentaries. Any resources that Nicky mentioned, I’ll put in the show notes. Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.

Ep 30 | Breaking the Cycle

Takeaways & Reflections from Ep. 28 & 29 | Breaking the Cycle

 

 

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

Episode 28 with  Quandell Wright offered me a perspective of what life was like for him growing up on the streets of Detroit, MI. He had to grow up fast, growing up with a single-parenting mom during his younger years, and how he found himself in a gang. I share thoughts about how easily a parent can make parenting choices based on fear.

I share, from Ruthie Bowles episode (Episode 29) more about my thoughts on how the traumas that happen to us, like sexual assault, impact our parenting. I also include the tips Ruthie shared from her episode on what to look for in a friend whose behavior has changed and seems to be keeping something from you.

These two stories are an excellent representation of how our experiences, both growing up, and as adults, change us, thereby, also change in how we move about in the world, and yes, parent.

These illustrate how important it is to take ownership of our lives and empower ourselves with new knowledge; challenging what we were brought up to believe to be true about grief and break the cycle so many of us find ourselves in.

Resources Mentioned:

Quick Link to Previous Episodes:

Need help?
Call 800.656.HOPE (4673) to be connected with a trained staff member from a sexual assault service provider in your area.

And so today I just want to share a little bit more behind the interviews with Quandell and Ruthie and I’ll start with Quandell, the one thing I’m finding I love, really love about podcasting is I almost describe like it’s like reading a book. You know, I prefer a book in my hands always have, but it’s like reading a book. But listening to the audio version, from the person’s words, and like a book, through story were taken to another place another time, and another life another way of being another experience that probably is not at all, like our own. And that was Quandell story for me. I’m a white woman growing up in rural North Dakota. And I’d only heard just a little snippet of Quandell’s story before I asked him to be on the podcast.

And yeah, it was kind of for selfish reasons, because I really wanted to understand from his perspective, what it was like, growing up where he did, and it was in the rough parts of Detroit, where there was gang activity, and where he had found himself within the chaos of that life. And so I really was very curious to learn more about what life was like for him. And what it’s like for many people who experienced a similar situation like him. Because you know, the thing is, when we can hear other people’s stories, get an understanding of where they’re coming from, why they maybe feel the way they feel about certain things, what they believe in why they believe those things, we gain understanding. And when there’s understanding there’s more so to be likely compassion. And so that is my hope that you hear these stories, Quandells, Ruthies any of these stories, and you have more compassion, that we are all human beings doing the best we can walk in our own journey. Whether it’s in rural North Dakota, in the military, like Ruthie or in the streets of Detroit.

A Story of Determination on Surviving Life

So Quandell really touched my heart in a unique for the Hard Knocks of life. And, you know, I don’t know what it’s like to be a single mother, growing, you know, raising children in poverty on the streets of Detroit, but I can sympathize and empathize with the fear of what that means of not knowing if or when your child will make it home, alive. And so this fear is what perpetuates this feeling of I gotta prepare you, I’ve got to toughen you up so that you can stand up for yourself. And through Quandell’s story. Like I said, despite everything, he opened up his home to some men, where they would have a space to share. And I saw this determination and him to make something of his life through his creativity, his passion and his work for his clothing line, and the how deeply rooted. That was, for him growing up as a as a young child, drawing and doodling. And the influence that he got from his grandfather, but then yet didn’t even realize until much later in life. It was just this story of how do you claw your way out of all of that? And if you haven’t listened to the episode, he attempted suicide three times. And it was on the third time that he ended up in a psych hospital that changed his life. But he also became a young father at 16. And again, 19. And so there’s all these elements at play in his life that, you know, the odds are stacked against him.

And yet I see this man was sharing his story. And I couldn’t believe that he was sitting. I was looking at him, and he was sharing it with me, right? So I’ve had several of those types of interviews. It’s always humbling to me. that have been transformative in his healing and in his life. Several of them I’d read that he shared and some I hadn’t. I particularly loved the towards the end of the episode to where his advice was to smile. At the end, he said, Look in the mirror and smile at yourself. And for Quandell he has the gap between his teeth. And he said I always hated my smile. And I did look into he said, you know, getting it fixed, but you know, it’d be a lot, you know, a couple $1,000. And then if I got braces, and you have to wear a retainer for the rest of your life either. Now, that ain’t for me. Loving myself is just a little bit easier, cheaper. Maybe I don’t know if it’s easier because it is hard. You know, when you’ve had traumatic experiences and you’ve lived through your own living hell. It can be really difficult to give love to the first person that you should be giving it to and that’s yourself. When I first started my personal development journey. It’s such an overused word, but it’s the truth. It is a journey. One of the things that just peeling back the layers, unlearning all of the garbage that were taught growing up, whether it was well intentioned or not, our parents do what they know, with what they have at the time.

And, you know, here’s the thing too, like how we parent, our children definitely is influenced, not definitely it is influenced by how we were raised. Because that our belief systems are formed in childhood, they’re developed in childhood. And, like I said, whether intentionally or not, we learn what we learn. So as adults, we have a lot of unlearning to do more often than not, because our parents bring their traumas and their hurts and their pains into their parenting and how they parent and what they say and how they say it, and such as the generational cyclic learning. And so it really is up to each and every one of us to take ownership 1%, at least 1% responsibility for our lives and everything in it, and every one in it, that is there. And they are there. Because in some, whether subconsciously or consciously we chose it we choose every single day. And we can choose love and light and moving towards that direction. I’ll be it if it causes us pain and suffering along the way to unlearn and unpack and undo, and re learn new tools and new knowledge. Or we can continue to go in the opposite direction, and towards pain and more suffering and keep repeating the same patterns of behavior that brought us to that pain and additional suffering in the first place. So I hope you listen to Quandell’s episode and you consider how his parenting could have been influenced very differently, how there could be a very strong possibility that he wouldn’t have even had known as children, his children wouldn’t have known him had he not decided and chose a different path for himself. And he says, you know, not everything is perfect, I’m not perfect. It’s unlearning is an unraveling all the knots of become our lives takes time. It’s not an overnight process at all, but he’s working towards it. And that’s what I saw in him. Is this determination to be the best self he can possibly be.

A Story of Sexual Assault While Serving in the Military

Episode 29th Guest Ruthie Bowles shared her story of sexual assault while serving in the military. Her first experience was with a boyfriend, which not many people may consider that yes, you can be sexually assaulted. While you’re in a relationship. He has no means no. Right? Which we do get into and did get into in that episode. So I do hope you listen. But the second time was also when the day she got back from deployment, which is striking because, you know, you deploy to, I believe it was, I want to say she said Afghanistan, she deployed to Afghanistan comes home and is assaulted in her own barracks room. Ironic, in a way in all that. And I think so many soldiers actually, who survives a deployment, because honestly, if you were being shot at you survived deployment. And when she’s in uniform, she’s military personnel. And so there’s this duality of existence for time when you’re active duty. And she describes her uniform as a shield that she didn’t realize she was wearing after these events took place. And that really struck me because you really don’t have to wear a uniform to build that shield, right? But for her because her experiences took place with other military personnel, her rank became something to that was a part of her shield. And she lived up to this identity that she had created for herself of one that I’m not someone you mess with. And yet at the same time, what sexual assault did to her was create this conflict of and we talked about, and this is what struck me what came up, because I think it’s really something that a lot of women or men, or anyone who is sexually assaulted experiences is that you would think, you know, because you’re sexually assaulted, you aren’t interested in sex, and that your relationships are turned off and, and what have you.

But the other side of that is that you can have this feeling of where does your self worth go? Where do your boundaries go? You probably didn’t have any and that’s what led or can was a contributing factor to what built you up to be find yourself in a position like that. Because like I said, it goes back to our upbringing. And if you don’t feel a strong sense of self, I think you’re more vulnerable to people who can manipulate and take advantage. Make you feel less than you lack self confidence, self assurance, not sure really who you are. Because a lot of people I mean, how many 18 year old really know who they are. So all these things combined her upbringing, your beliefs, your sense, like the level of sense of self that you have mixin and, you know, a military training that’s supposed to break you down and build you up. But like Ruthie says, and I would agree with that, that’s really what happens. I went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and they yelled at you, there’s mostly men, and the culture back then was I don’t know what it’s like now. But that was the idea is that they tear you down so they can build you up. There’s a lot of components to that that are missing, because they don’t know what your upbringing was like, when you sign the dotted line and say you’re willing to give up your life for your country. They don’t ask you, well had you been sexually assaulted before? Have you suffered the loss of a parent at a young age? Did you see someone die when you were young? All these different experiences that contribute to what we call and, you know, grief recovery, but they’re in psychology, they’re called aces, adverse childhood experiences, and consider each adverse childhood experience as an ace.

And the more you have, the more likely you are to experience or find yourself having an addiction. And all these, you know, a mental disorder, or undiagnosed depression are all these numbers of things that can happen as a result, because those experiences change you on a physical, physiological, and chemically like your brain, at a cellular level. So none of those things are taken in consideration when you sign the dotted line. And then when you go on deploy, and you see your battle, buddy die, you were shot out, you go out of the wire every single day and wonder if you’re going to make it back. You hear of other battalions or platoons that go out before you who suffer losses of life. It’s this fight, flight or freeze that Ruthie mentioned that I think the freeze part isn’t often Yeah, kind of ignored. It’s like you think you know how you’re going to react in a certain situation, but you really don’t know until you’re in it right? And so what she said to as unhelpful to her is that people would say, well, when this was happening to you, why didn’t you fight back? Why didn’t you cry for help? For some people? I would say, How do you know I didn’t? And if I did, it obviously didn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter because we cannot control what other people think feel or do just as Ruthie said.

When Shame Came Up

How easily someone can find themselves in a position of doing something that isn’t in their nature or their character. But because of alcohol, or because of peer pressure, or a combination of both, may do something that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. My husband and I actually just talked about this, the day before I’m recording this. And my thought around it was that, you know, in shame, shame came up. Because people that carry shame, they show you, they show you shame, and how they behave, the choices they make, how they treat others, a lot of us, many of us carry shame. And it can look very differently for everyone. And I think for the most part, if you feel guilty about something, you likely have shame. And so I loved how that came up when she was talking about raising her boys. Because I really do think it’s important that there are decisions that we may make in life that we aren’t necessarily proud of. And it’s that shame that either keeps us stuffing our feelings with food, sex, drugs, gambling, all these STERBS, the short term energy relieving behaviors that I talked about in grief recovery.

That grief recovery actually helps to bring to light to help you recognize to bring an awareness around what you do, in response to shame to grieve to your feelings, and then arm you with new knowledge and tools to navigate and rid yourself of that. A part of Ruthie story that also came up. I brought actually just I think it was a few days before I’d interviewed her the Vanessa Guillen’s story on 2020 aired, or perhaps no, it was a recording actually, I DVR it and had watched it just actually before Ruth is episode recorded. And I wanted to share the stats once again, that I’d read in an article referring to the Vanessa Guillen case, who if you don’t know she was a soldier in the military at Fort Hood, who had been being sexually harassed by a superior ranking enlisted soldier. And she was planning to press charges or report that person and she ended up dead for it. He killed her in a really horrific way. And but one of the points highlighted in the story was that every year that 20,000 service members are sexually assaulted. Now, Ruthie pointed out that’s of people that report. So I think she and I both agree that that number is actually more likely quite higher, substantially higher, I would would say, of those 20,000 5000 will actually report 500 of those would be court martialed, and of those 500 to 250 would actually be convicted. And again, I mean, how do they estimate 20,000 when only 5000 report? So yeah, when you hear that? It’s like how is raising boys versus girls possibly any easier. I would agree with Ruthie and I’m so glad she highlighted that and brought that up in the episode.

Revictimization

Another aspect of her story that she brought up is this re victimization that she experienced, you know, of having to repeat her story of, you know, having the proof and then it accidentally being destroyed her case not going anywhere. And, you know, years later, many years later now, it’s still dragging now because she’s, you know, trying to get some sort of benefit for, you know, PTSD that she still is living with as a result of her experiences. So I hope the VA does the right thing. But if they don’t, you know, she’s back at square one, having to work through and navigate that disappointment all over again, this let down feeling of an entity that you swore your life to protect, to serve. So I love that she shared some tips of how she began to heal, she talks about things to look out for and friends who may have been sexually assaulted themselves. And one is changes in behavior. So that’s where we kind of talked about, you know, this idea that just because you’ve been sexually assaulted, you’re an interested in sex anymore. But you know, the opposite can happen where you actually just kind of get this I don’t care, attitude, our I’m going to get you before you get me. I’m going to give it to you before I before I say no, and you take it away. So this influx of relationships, you know, the subsequent relationships, gaslighting were another thing she said to look out for was gaslighting, where someone may ask you, you know what’s going on seems like something, something’s up. And they’re like, No, nothing’s wrong, but you seem a little off lately, or there’s something going on with you, you know, and they kind of turn it around on you make you seem like you’re the crazy one for asking.

Good at Redirecting Conversation

Another point she made was, they’re really good at redirecting conversation, which kind of plays into the whole gaslighting thing. And she also says to be gentle, but focused. So I understand that I like how she put it where you’re going to have to knock on this door several times, until I feel safe with you to open up until I can know and feel comfortable that you’re ready to hear what I have to share. And that’s a poignant point, because a lot of people and I think until you’ve been a victim yourself of sexual assault, you really don’t understand that depth. Again, it comes back to you think you know what you would do? And until it happens to you, you know, you don’t. A lot of good stuff in both of the episodes.

I hope you take a listen. And maybe your tact and your approach changes a little bit because of something you’ve heard on this on this podcast. It is very much for Grievers, but also for non Grievers and so I hope that starting to that bigger picture, that bigger vision for this podcast, I hope is starting to become more clear why this is so important to me. I do have some lighter questions that I’m working into the episodes coming up. You know, this has been a learning process. I’m learning as I go. And there was one episode with Victoria Shah, that I got some feedback that they liked that it was, you know, she shared her story of like losing herself and things like that. But yeah, it was it seemed lighter, it was like a lighter, felt lighter, but yet it was still helpful if you’re a griever. And so I’m looking to do a little bit more of that.

And I was a reminder of, there are people that have lived some really terrible atrocities in their life, and they’ve made it to the other side. I’ve always loved a good triumph story. I was a kid, even now, like commercials like our stories I see. Oh, Jim Hartman is a can always bring me to tears. Jim Hartman, runs special sometimes on what used to be on the CBS News, but it’s always a feel good.

Love Yourself

Try and fit. Not always, but it’s always a feel good story. And it’s always one that is kind of touching. I think, too. He does it often on CBS Sunday morning. It’s where I catch a lot of them now. But I can always bring me to tears pretty easily. I just, I really have a soft spot for people who beat all odds. And kondos advice applies to anybody, you know, one day at a time, take it one day at a time. I love the parenting advice from his perspective of being a young parent himself. The other thing too, is, you know, he’s always he’s been working on himself, he’s made it a priority to work on himself after his experience in the psych hospital. That’s when he got that advice himself was to take it one day at a time, he shares a lot of several books that he recommends would read or hear a lot about is the importance of loving yourself.

And you can’t give to others what you can’t give to yourself. But how hard is that right? It is really hard. Well, the act of doing it isn’t hard. But it’s all the others stuff and gunk and sludgy messes in your heart that kind of are wet make it hard, right? And so healing really is, to me. It’s not a laughing matter. But I mean, you look at it that way. Some soldiers survive multiple deployments come home, and surviving life is the greatest battle they ever fight. The center view brought back memories for me of my time in the military. I was in the North Dakota Army National Guard, whereas Ruthie was full time. So granted, the experiences are very different. I also, I deployed but I had deployed to Iraq, as a medic. And so we left the wire every single day to clear roadside bombs. That was that was my battalions job, and I went along as the medic with my platoon. And so every day when you got back, you survived another day, and we did lose soldiers on our deployment.

But it’s life at home that can sometimes bring, like I said, the biggest challenges we face in for Ruthie, it was a real blend of the two it was this life at home. Where, when she’s not in uniform, she’s a civilian.

much love, victoria

P.S. But also within each episode, bringing a balance right to the depth of pain to the other side to the lighter side of what’s their joy. And so you’ll start to see that kind of transform a little bit in the interviews coming up. But until then, remember that when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Until next time, much love.

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