Grief, Grief Tips, Growth, Living Unleashed, Mind/Body Wellness |
Uncomfortable Conversations
How many conversations have you avoided because you were afraid to rock the boat, appear to be too emotional or analytical, or downright scared to expose your heart?
Sharing your heart with others through uncomfortable conversations is a lot like being back in a middle school locker room. Just as your personal body is open to criticism, analysis, and judgment from others, so is the heart when your deepest feelings are shared in uncomfortable conversations.
An uncomfortable conversation can be speaking up for yourself for the first time about what you need, from a relationship to telling your parents you’re not pursuing a career they had their sights on for you since the time you were walking. Or, it can be coming out as gay for the first time or any other secret that’s leaving you feeling emotionally twisted in your gut when attempting to shield yourself from the truth of what you’re so afraid to share.
We are confronted with a choice to dive into uncomfortable conversations more times than we probably realize. Still, the decision to not “go there” is often made in a split-second thought that we quickly put that decision out of our minds. That being said, the restlessness we feel about the need to express ourselves emotionally doesn’t go away. Instead, by denying ourselves a release by lifting the weight of what feels like a secret or even conflicting feelings, you are only hurting yourself.
Sometimes, the suffering we cause ourselves by not unburdening our hearts is worse than the act or after-effects of sharing our heart’s truth.
Granted, there is a time and place for sharing. There is also a tactful and thoughtful way to express ourselves too. Information is far better received when we stick to how we feel rather than what we perceive as facts. Because our perceptions are all different, I can look at an image and see something completely different than the person next to me because we all perceive the world around us differently; filtering the world through the five senses of our personal experiences. I experienced this full-on in my Reiki Master certification, the same process as everyone else, but no two experiences of attunements and ignitions were the same.
If there is a difficult conversation, here are a few questions to ask yourself first:
Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?
We can sometimes make mountains out of molehills, so asking yourself these questions first may actually spare you further suffering. And, by necessity, I like to think of it, not as your feelings are not valid; rather, five years from now, will it matter? This comes back to possibly making a mountain out of a molehill.
May I Suggest…
If, after asking yourself the three questions above, you still feel that what you need to share needs to be said out loud (rather than working through how your experience may be a projection of your inner world), then it may be worth role-playing out loud. Create a checklist of the main points you want to express, then role-play in the mirror, saying the very things you need to say to the other person. After doing this exercise, you may even find that you feel better, and the situation seems to resolve itself, almost like magic. And, if it’s a situation that is complex or devastating, this will still be helpful. I suggest this to get clear and experience the emotions behind the words. When you go to have the conversation, you’re better able to focus on what needs to be said and not derail the opportunity to fully express yourself because you’re emotionally charged. Discharge some of that emotion first, so you can clearly articulate and express how you feel.
Grief recovery has helped me in unexpected ways, recognize the importance of addressing my emotions first before endeavoring into uncomfortable (and difficult) conversations. And, there have been more times than I can count, that after taking some time to step back and observe what’s going in within me, that I’ve been able to address the conflict in myself that was being reflected in the relationship with the other person.
Self-awareness: it’s a beautiful thing. 💛
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections from Episodes 18 &19: Children Grieving & Grieving Children
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
The child-griever club is not a very big club, and yet, big enough. 5% of children in the United States have lost one or both parents by age 15.
This episode is a reflection of a shared experience with griever, Lindsay, from episode 18. She lost a parent, her mother, at 13 months old. If you haven’t listened to her episode, and episode 19 with Reena, check those out then come back to this one.
Aside from talking about child grief, and what you can do to support a grieving child you know (and more), I also share some nuggets of wisdom Reena shared from her episode, as well as my reflections around one of the most minimized losses – miscarriage.
Through loss, we learn so much about ourselves. We also have an opportunity to share, from experience, where we’ve struggled and where we’ve triumphed through grief.
Grief unites us all, regardless of the loss you’ve endured. And many of us, like Lindsay and myself, are faced later in life with a choice. We can either resist that which, literally, shaped who we’d become (due to childhood grief), or lean into it and create something good from it.
If you know a child griever in your life, here are six tips for offering support to a grieving child mentioned in this episode:
- Listen with your heart, not your head. Allow the child to express all emotions without judgment, criticism, or analysis.
- Recognize that grief is emotional, not intellectual. Avoid asking “What’s wrong?” Similarly to adults, children often respond with “Nothing.”
- You are the adult – go first. Tell the truth about your own grief. Additionally, don’t try to compare your loss to theirs.
- Remember that each child is unique and each has a unique relationship to the loss event.
- Be patient. Don’t force them to talk.
- Never say “Don’t feel sad, or “Don’t feel scared.” Sadness and fear are normal feelings following loss of any kind.
Resources & References:
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Need help?
- Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
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Today is Episode 20. As I said, takeaways and reflections from episodes 18 was with Lindsay joy Taylor and 19 was with Rena Friedman. But I cannot even get my numbers straight today. So yes, this is Episode 20. And I’m titling it, children grieving and grieving children. So the episode with Lindsay, I just wanted to dig in a little bit more, she had the loss of her mother, when she was 13 months old, I believe her mother was murdered. And we dug a little bit into childhood grief in her experience, because that’s the whole idea behind this podcast is to give the griever the platform to share their story, I just wanted to dig a little deeper into childhood grief. And that’s an experience that Lindsay and I both share. If you’ve never listened before my father passed away when I was eight have cancer, and he had been sick for about two years.
So I watched his decline, which was really difficult. So Lindsay, and I share that commonality, although our grieving experiences and our losses are vastly different. It is the shared child loss that we both can connect to. And I want to speak a little bit on that on how losses are inevitable, and the dangers of comparison of losses.
How Losses are Inevitable
So speaking just a little bit about losses in general, which are inevitable and cannot be avoided. And as much as we love our children, we cannot wrap a shield around them and protect them from sad, painful or negative feelings. So the next best thing for is for us to learn how to help them when events and circumstances occur, that create the normal and natural emotions of grief, grief or loss. And establishing a foundation for dealing effectively with loss can be one of the greatest gifts you can give a child and for me growing up and for my loss experience there was no therapy, there was no communication about what had occurred about the death of my dad, it was like, Yes, he died. He’s being buried. And I grew up having this idea or thought that when you die, you just go on the ground and, and that’s it. I really didn’t have an eye you know, and I created these visions in my mind of and through the years actually. I wonder what he looks like now like these are the thoughts that went through my mind. And it’s really difficult because you don’t know how to process those feelings. You weren’t given the tools and the space to actually share.
Now Lindsay’s experience was a little bit different in the fact that it was her mom for me it was my dad and her dad had actually remarried soon after, as my mom into that relationship wasn’t the greatest for her. And so there wasn’t that safe space, as she shared, and the whole family’s still, you know that there’s the family dynamic too, right? Because, like for me, too, there was other people in the household. We all have our different grieving experiences and how we process and the age difference as well. My brother was five years older. Lindsay was the youngest as well, yes, she was the youngest as well. So, and her sister, I think, was five years older than her as well. Maybe even a little bit older than that. Please go listen to that episode, Episode 18 with Lindsay, that it’s an excellent episode, as they all are, because these are people’s grieving stories. We all have a story, right?
So anyway, back to the inevitability of loss, and the importance of a child to be supported through that to have the option and ability to communicate. And for Lindsay, that happened a little bit later for her. She did speak about play therapy, which I absolutely loved that that was something that was offered to her, someone in her, I think it was in her school teacher or some faculty really saw something. And she really couldn’t pinpoint either what it was that led her to be in that play therapy. But it made an impression on her to the point that she still remembers that today. And so it really is important that we allow our children the ability to communicate what they’re feeling, even if it makes you uncomfortable right? I remember having a conversation not a couple years ago, actually, no, it was after I have been certified in grief recovery, I ran into someone who I’ve known for quite a few years. And they had a lot of loss in their life. And he was speaking about his daughter and how, you know, they had added another like her grandpa had passed away and the daughter of the grandpa so her mom, anytime that daughter would bring up the Grandpa, the mom would get upset, she didn’t want to talk about it, she was so hurt in her own heart space. Right, she was still she was grieving herself. And she any mention of her father upset her. And so if the child wasn’t given the space to communicate about her loss, and what she learned in that was that we don’t talk about our losses. And as much as as painful as they are, we stuff them down. That’s what we’re taught. That’s what many of us are taught.
We Should Never Compare Losses
And, unfortunately, and so it’s our discomfort around loss in our lives. This is why that generational learning gets passed down. Because we are so uncomfortable with what we’re feeling. We don’t know how to process what we’re feeling as the adults, the children therefore learn by example, right? And so this is why I’m so passionate about grief recovery. It’s why I’m very passionate about the helping children with Loss Program. I’ll get more into that later. But these are skills and lessons that we carry with us for the rest of our lives. And what lesson do we want to pass on to our children? Along with those lessons, it’s important to that we recognize that all loss is individual and unique because every relationship is individual and unique all loss is experienced at 100% even though the level of intensity is not the same for every loss and each loss can have different emotional intensity for each person.
This is why it is essential to understand that we can never, we never compare losses, neither our own nor those of our children, and never between siblings or friends they’re each individual and unique in will have their own responses to loss. And it can be tough because we need to remember that never to compare losses or each other’s responses to those losses because comparison creates a false hierarchy of loss. For example, when the child whose parents have divorced is compared with the child who had one or both parents die, he is often made to feel that he shouldn’t feel bad or sad because his parents are still alive. Likewise, we shouldn’t compare our children’s responses to lock to a loss. For example, we would not say something like, I don’t know why you’re so upset about this move, your sister is looking forward to it and excited to get there. Now that’s the perfect example of comparing losses. The fact is that the that the child’s heart and life have been massively disrupted by that divorce or the move in their feelings about that loss or as real and valid as any other child’s feelings about any loss. So again, just as we should not compare as adults to each other as losses. We do not want to compare our children’s, to their siblings, to their friends, and to our own because every relationship is unique and individual. Children are like sponges, they watch and listen to us and they hear things we might not even say and they begin to establish those as ways they should handle grief. Think of it about what you’re teaching your children about how to grieve and if you’re listening to this, and you’re feeling I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’m really screwing this up. I’m doing this wrong, my child has no idea. I have no idea how to support them.
Concrete Tips to Help you Navigate your Child Through their Loss
Allow your child to express all emotions without judgment, criticism or analysis.
Recognize that grief is emotional, not intellectual, avoid the trap of asking your child what is wrong? because he or she will automatically say nothing. Isn’t that what we adults do? right? We say I’m fine, you are the adult.
Go first tell the truth about your own grief. Don’t be afraid to say, I remember feeling sad, when but don’t try to compare your loss.
Remember that each of your children is unique. And each has a unique relationship to the loss event.
Be patient do not force them to talk.
Never say don’t feel sad, or don’t feel scared. Sadness and fear are normal feelings following loss of any kind.
The Traumatic Experience of a Child
But I also want to share to how you know there’s grief. And then there’s also trauma and trauma agreement experience can be traumatic. So losing my father, that was a traumatic experience. Death is very finite, it’s when someone dies. That’s it. It’s done, right? There’s no going back. And that can feel very traumatic for a child, even if they have watched their loved ones suffer. And they knew what’s coming. I’m not really sure if I knew what was coming. But I remember hearing the words dad died, and it hitting me at the moment. Children have no choice who their parents are. And this I’m going to read this little excerpt from there’s a book called The body keeps the score, brain, mind and body in the healing of trauma by Bessel Vander Kolk, it is not an easy read. It is a book about trauma and how trauma is held in the body. And it’s mostly about child sexual abuse, and having been abused, sexually abused as a child. This book has not been easy for me to read, I’m actually still working through it like I have to read a little bit at a time. But I want to read this little excerpt which can apply to you know, trauma in general too or just grief in general. Children have no choice who their parents are, nor they can, can they understand that parents may simply be too depressed, enraged, or spaced out to be there for them, or that their parents behavior may have little to do with them.
Children have no choice but to organize themselves to survive within the families they have. Unlike adults, they have no other authorities to turn to for help. Their parents are the authorities, they cannot rent an apartment or move in with someone else, their very survival hinges on their caregivers. And this is the weight we carry as parents because when my father passed away, my survival hinged on my mother emotional, physical, everything, you know, an eight years old, that’s a very formative, I mean, your brain still developing and much of what you’ve learned about grief is actually pretty well set in almost getting to age 12, actually, but much of what we learn 75% of what we learn about grief is actually instilled in us by that age. And so it’s imperative that those early years, we set the stage and foundation for how to process grief. Now, I mentioned earlier that my mom in previous podcast episodes, I’m not sure if I did in this one, but my mom didn’t really know how to process her own grief. So she wasn’t emotionally available to help me process mine. And that created a dissociation because not only to my mother, it was like to myself, like I, you know, I wasn’t connected with what was going on in my body, like how I was feeling. And all of those emotions were like, stagnant were stuck in there.
And I feel like for Lindsay too like we shared that common bond, it does stay in your body, the conversation actually led to that how trauma stays in the body and how it can show up many years later, we can have an experience at age 8,9,10. And it may not show up again in our lives until we’re 12,16,24 doesn’t matter. It’s individual for everyone. But that’s the fascinating thing for me about trauma and what I’ve been learning. But again, we don’t have a choice who our parents are, and and no one helps facilitate processing that trauma. It does stick with us in some way some fashion somehow and shows up in our other relationships as we get older. And there’s that other piece of the family dynamics that everyone has their own way, right? And some family members may be more vocal, others may be more private. Again, that has a lot to do with what we’re taught, like how to process grief.
Having Kids as a Healing Tool
For me it was I was very private about what was going on in my own inner world, Lindsay expressed how she’s more vocal. And perhaps it was part of that play therapy. And you know, earlier therapy that she experienced in her college years to understand how important it was to talk about what she was experiencing. It was interesting, too, that our conversation led into having kids as a healing tool. I didn’t expect that to come up. But I was very glad it did. Because I think it’s easy for some of us to when we’re have not processed our own grief to fill that void, especially if we did not receive love. If we did not have the emotional connection to our own parent, there’s this we desire love, right? We desire affection, and connection is that piece that is a human need. And so if we didn’t experience that growing up, we will try to find it, we will try to find ways to create that for ourselves, whether it’s a sterb short term energy relieving behaviors, alcohol, drugs, things that make us feel good for a time, we will resort to those things, or relationships, we can do that with relationships as well, relationships can be a sterb, always needing to have somebody or this idea that someone else completes you.
And so when we’re thinking about having children, there’s different philosophies around that as well. And for me, growing up, I didn’t want kids into my 20s and it’s probably shaped by my experiences in childhood. And I think too, it’s I didn’t know, or feel like I would be good enough, to be honest, you know, and that plays into on, you know, self worth issues and all of that. But then there’s the pendulum can swing the other way to where we seek that out, we seek having children to fill that need for us. So it can go both ways. And so it was an interesting conversation. And Lindsey shared how she is open to children, but that it’ll happen when it’s ready when it’s organically going to happen. But she understands she has a self-awareness, I think that’s the biggest piece here is the self- awareness to feel like you have laid a foundation to be the best parent that you can be. And I think that’s what it comes down to the self awareness around it. And I definitely didn’t have any of that in my early 20s. I maybe I did, I had the self awareness that Nope, I’m not going to be a good parent. Like I had told myself that also too, like I was too busy living the life and a life of I was too busy getting my throne my life off the tracks and put it that way i was really preoccupied with myself and the disaster of my life I was creating. So yeah, children were not even were the farthest thing from my mind. But you know, once I found somebody in my life who brought out the best in me, who helped me create a foundation who was an integral part in helping me find my faith again, that foundation was laid, and I felt more confident in who I was. And in the relationship I was in feel like I would approach parenthood as a team effort and that I had support right? And I think that’s huge too.
Helping Children with Loss Program
Circling back to what this whole episode with Lindsay was about, you know, grieving children. I just want to share a little bit about the helping children with loss program. It is a four week online group program. It is for parents, caregivers, school staff, clergy, daycare providers, headstart centers, homeless shelters, even like the staff of homeless shelters, military, family groups, veteran groups, etc. It is for anybody who is a leader of child organization who have children in their care, adoptive families, foster families, you name it, like if you are taking care of children in any capacity this program is for you. It is to help you have the tools and knowledge of helping children process their feelings around loss of any kind. And let me just add to that trauma for a child can be as simple as their teddy bear ended up in the dumpster, or you took it away or their baby blanket was taken away. Or you know, it seems so simple to us as an adult but to a child, it can feel traumatic, and that stays in our bodies. Like I said, that’s where communication is huge. And children understand far more than we give them credit for and I think they’re underestimated. Children are greatly underestimated in society.
So I just wanted to share a little bit about that program that it is online. It is four weeks in it, it arms you with the tools to feel confident of knowing what to say, what to do. When you are confronted with a child who is feeling loss, reach out to me, I’m gonna put the link in the show notes as well, for more information. It’s a great program. I’m passionate about it, just like with everything related to grief recovery, and reach out if you have any questions, please. And my question to you too, would be when you hear me talking about this stuff, and the potential of what you could learn in this program. My question is, does it feel expansive, because we don’t know what we don’t know. And knowledge comes from learning and experience. And so if you don’t know, there’s a way to learn, and it’s through this program. So just going to throw that out there.
Multiple Miscarriage Experience and Words of Wisdom
Switching gears to Episode 19 with Rena, which was titled multiple miscarriage experience and words of wisdom. I just want to share a couple stats each year 24,000 babies are stillborn, according to an August 2020 CDC report. And I mean, I was learning a lot I did a little bit of research as I’m sharing with you for this episode. And when the baby dies in the womb prior to 20 weeks that is considered miscarriage. Also about one in 100 women have repeat miscarriage, according to the March of Dimes website. And also pregnancy hormones can remain in a female’s body one to two months after miscarriage. And in that episode, Rena shared a little bit of her experience about the hormones and how it’s like you, you’re supposed to have this child in your arms. And, you know, you feel the heart, you hear the heartbeat and you feel them moving inside. And that’s traumatic, it’s traumatic to the body. It is traumatic to a female’s psyche, it can be I’m not saying it is for everybody, but it can be. And we talked to about the environment in which a woman who goes through a miscarriage is placed in and she was sharing how, you know, you go into this office, and you’re supposed to, you know, she actually had to go in to complete the miscarriage. And, you know, she’s sitting in this office, and these women are, you know, they’re big bellies, and very happy, very pregnant. And that’s heart wrenching for a woman who’s facing the loss of her baby, also too she shared her own personal experience of the nurse who said, well, you’re the abort, and caught herself, caught herself before she you know, insinuated that she was there for an abortion.
You know, that is very hurtful and very harmful to someone who is there actually, because of miscarriage. But there has to be the sensitivity around and first of all, like, really verifying the information. But I think too, it becomes, I can’t imagine working in that environment where day in and day out, you are seeing women who are experiencing miscarriage and who are having abortions and how, how easy that mistake can happen. And here’s the thing, maybe that’s where change needs to happen as well, and how we create an environment that’s safe, that’s holding, holding space for a woman, regardless of what she’s there for, regardless of what she’s experiencing, to honor the presence of her spirit of her loss of what she’s going through. And I don’t know, I just I feel like you know, it’s a clinical type setting. It’s like how can we make that environment. It’s like when you go in for a massage, right? You go there to relax, you go there to feel good to lift your own spirit to care for yourself, you know, the lights are down low, there’s probably aromatics like something is you know, being diffused to, you know, aroma therapy is being used, they’re setting the mood to help you relax and feel comfortable. And I just think there has to be something that can be done for women who are going through either experience to make them feel supported, held and comforted because a loss is a loss.
And grief is grief actually got really kind of fired up at that point in her episode because I really do think there needs to be the sensitivity training around this and but again to I think it’s almost it can be easy too to become desensitized when you’re in that environment day in and day out. Well, it’s just another day you become desensitized. As to what is really occurring when you’re in that day in and day out, and to what does that do to their psyche? What does that do to, to their hearts as well, right? Because we all are human, and there can be this shame as well, in that grief, and it’s an incredibly vulnerable time, you know, if you don’t feel safe with who is there to support you, that leaves a lasting impression on your heart and in your body as well. We shifted gears then to talking about her grandparents she had, she had both sets of grandparents living well into their 90s, I believe. And it wasn’t until I’m not sure of the year, but in recent years, her paternal grandfather had passed away. And we got to talking about her surviving grandmother, and how I believe she was turning, I have 95, in my mind, but that might be incorrect well into her 90s. Anyway, still taking care of herself, well, up until recently had been taking care of herself. And we talked about the end of life experience, and in what she has learned from her grandmother. And in recent years, she sent this quote, and I wrote it down because it was just really good. One thing she’s learned is why spend your time on the people who are going to judge you? Spend your time on the people who love you. I can’t recall if that is wisdom from her grandmother, but all the same. It’s good wisdom, and it’s a truth. And I think it applied 50 years ago, it still applies today. And it’ll apply, apply 50 years from now.
Rena’s Beautiful Story of Being in Jerusalem
We also talked about charity, and she shared this beautiful story of being in Jerusalem. And there was this woman who just asked her for money, every time she passed her, and she would give her money every time she passed her. And I loved what she shared that her dad had taught her early on, and he told her, if God puts them in my path, then I need to help them. And I love that. Now, of course, you want to do that with all safety in mind, right? Like my husband has told me you ever see someone on the side of the road? And you’re alone? don’t you stop. You know, nowadays, everyone has a cell phone, and there should be no reason why they can’t get help. But that is my nature to want to help people. And so he had made it very clear. If you are alone, you do not stop. But when it comes to charity, I just love that story she shared. But anyway, it went She went on to add, though, that I want there was one point though where she was it was the day she was leaving Jerusalem. And she sees this woman again. And she’s sitting down, she’s sitting next sat next to her. And she listened to this woman talk. And she said she had this really crusty sweater, and obviously this woman and living on the streets, but she listened to everything this woman shared and gave her a hug, I encourage you to listen to that episode, because it’s a beautiful story of charity, and how I think sometimes charity is looked at like, it has to be this grand gesture or these big things or you know, given a lot of money. And sometimes it can be just our time and an embrace. And so I really love that story. And I also share a tip for offering a hug in that episode.
P.S. I hope I brought some information that is helpful. And if you have any questions about anything I shared today, don’t hesitate to reach out to me [email protected] you can find me on Instagram @theunleashedheart you can DM me there or my website through my website as well theunleashedheart.com I will put some information in the show notes for your quick reference. But until next time, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing if you found it helpful, and remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Podcast, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Reena Friedman Watts: Multiple Miscarriage Experience & Words of Wisdom
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
**Reena shares graphic details of her two miscarriages. Please consider this if you have personally experienced a miscarriage.**
We go deep in this conversation, talking about the environment a bereaved mother experiencing miscarriage goes through, through the eyes of Reena’s experience.
We touch on the loss of her grandfather as well, and the relationship he and her grandmother had. Reena reflects on that relationship with her grandparents and shares wisdom from her 92-year-old grandmother, as well as wise words from her father.
Reena shares a lovely story and lesson on charity. Charity doesn’t have to be money. As Reena’s story illustrates, that charity can be time and an embrace. I also share a tip about offering grievers a hug, too!
So much wisdom in this episode. Even if you haven’t experienced a miscarriage, you likely know someone who has; you’ll find Reena’s words help to support others.
Connect with Reena:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:00
Welcome to the show today my guest is Reena Friedman Watts. I’m so excited to have you here.
Reena Friedman Watts 0:09
Thank you. I’m so excited to connect with you too.
Victoria Volk 0:12
Again, because I was on your podcast, and now you return the favor and you’re a guest on mine. And it’s been so fun to get to know you through Instagram. And when we first connected and yeah, you’re just a spitfire and I, I’ve just enjoyed getting to know you. And I’m, I’m sure that whoever listens to this will get something good, good nugget. Today, oh, tell us about yourself.
Reena Friedman Watts 0:40
I am a mom of four. I am an entrepreneur for the last couple of years, I have pivoted many times in my career, the first half of my career was in television. And then I took a mommy break where I had three kids in four years. And then while my kids were in preschool, I kind of inched my way back into working part time. So that was passing out flyers for divorce court and casting for court TV. And then I took a program manager role at avoid company and then wanted to work closer to home. So I could be there when my kids hopped off the bus. So I worked for a financial firm for a year and a half that led me to creating Lunch and Learn type of events in the corporate space. And then I really loved the event space. However, I didn’t so much love the financial space. So I then decided to get into entrepreneurial events and fell in love with that I love entrepreneurs. And I think my love of entrepreneurship ties in to my television roots, really, because entrepreneurs they bounce around, they have to constantly pivot. And when you work in TV, it’s the same way you know, you work on a pilot, it either gets picked up or you’re on unemployment.
Victoria Volk 2:00
Well, and if anybody checks you out, you have a podcast called Better Called Daddy. And if anyone checks that out, it totally I see the roots of that background used into it very much. So with entrepreneurship, it’s a lot of creativity that you have to rely on. And you’re definitely expressing that for sure. I love it. What led to better call daddy podcast?
Reena Friedman Watts 2:28
Oh my gosh, my dad has wanted me to be in front of the camera my entire career. And I have worked behind the scenes of a lot of other people. And I was happy doing that. And I feel like in order to be a good entrepreneur, a lot of the time, you do need to get ideas from others. And you do need to find out systems and ways to do things like my husband is a really good workhorse. He’s worked for big organizations, he’s good at corporate. I’m not that, but he yearns for entrepreneurship. And I was like, You know what, all of these things that you’re learning, he might one day be able to do the entrepreneur thing. But he’s like an entrepreneur. And I did the entrepreneur role for a while to get that financial firm, I had my own corner office, but I still had a boss. And I still reported to him. And he still got a chunk of everything I brought through the door. But I had a lot of freedom. And I had a lot of creativity and had I not had that role. I don’t think that I would have done many of the things that I’ve done now. So I have to be ready.
Victoria Volk 3:34
And I think a lot of what we experienced before entrepreneurship lays the foundation for entrepreneurship. And when you say that parenthood does too, like even just being a parent, like I talk about all the time, it’s like there’s two things that really grow person entrepreneurship and being a parent and bring up a lot of grief for us too!
Reena Friedman Watts 3:57
That is a good transition. And I was gonna say you know, being a parent has knocked me off my feet literally because after my first kid, first of all, I was 28 with my first kid, my mom had me at 18 that is something I didn’t want and I wasn’t ready for you know, she had a serious relationship. She married her high school sweetheart, but I was far from that. And I really wanted to stand on my own two feet and be able to live the big city life and make a paycheck and know that I could support myself prior to jumping into a relationship. So I had my first kid at 28 I you know, I lived in Chicago, I lived in LA I made a good salary. I thought I had gotten it out of my system of wanting to work. I was like yeah, I want to be a mom. I want to get married. I’m ready for that chapter. Then I met a guy we got married within eight months, I left my career moved to a new city new no one was making no money. He’s finishing his PhD. I’m like, I hate marriage. I hate life. What did I do that first year was trauma. It was so hard. I questioned everything, a lot of change. And then I got knocked up six months in. And I had a kid that was overwhelming. I literally did not get my first babysitter until he was like 18 months or something. I felt like just stuck in the house and that he always wanted me and I nursed him until he was two years old. And once I got him to sleep, I didn’t move from the chair. I was just holding this kid. I’m like, Okay, he’s asleep. I’m not gonna move. I mean, he overtook my life. And with the next one, she was so easy. A while Oh, in between the two, I had a miscarriage. I wanted to talk about that. And we had moved to Kentucky, because my husband got a great offer. And it was in my hometown. And we thought it would be nice to be near my parents and grandparents and have a chapter of that for a bit. So I had a miscarriage literally at my parents house, like I was having cramps, and I went into the shower, and then in the shower, there is something that rain, I wasn’t sure what that was. But I had already, you know, found out that I was pregnant and gone in and like heard the heartbeat. And it was the craziest experience. Because I guess if you just haven’t talked to other people about that, or you’ve had a healthy baby first, you just have no idea what I had never talked to anybody about miscarriage before. And seeing that in the drain. First of all, I heard myself cry like I had never cried before. And it just overtook me where I didn’t even know where that came from. that emotion, your hormones are just completely out of whack. And I literally scooped it up out of the drain, and put it in a bag and drove myself to the hospital because my mom had to stay there with my kid. And I had a girlfriend from my hometown that was a doctor and she came and met me there. But until then I was just literally sitting in the waiting room bleeding and alone.
Victoria Volk 7:04
And you feel
Reena Friedman Watts 7:07
I don’t even know how to describe that loss.
Victoria Volk 7:10
Yeah I can’t even I can’t even wrap my head around it.
Reena Friedman Watts 7:13
It was crazy. And then you go in with the doctor, and they’re like, there’s nothing in there. After you’ve already seen something in there, right? So you just have to like, process that. And it was very strange. And then, you know, back to juggling being a mom and sharing that with your husband. And actually my husband was really emotional about it, too. You know, I think since he had a healthy baby, and we got excited for a little bit there. He actually cried. And then seeing how it affected him and kind of like made me feel better. I was like, Oh, good guy
Victoria Volk 7:53
Well, they agreed too right?
Reena Friedman Watts 7:55
He did he actually their own way, grandfather. Yeah, I remember that. And then the second time that had happened was after my third kid. And I’ll be honest, I was working too much, and not really taking care of myself. And you can’t blame yourself, but you do. And I had just produced a big event in LA, you know, and I was working 12 hour days that whole week. And I came back and it happened like days after. Again. I went to the doctor This time though, like it hadn’t come out. And so I saw on the screen, the baby with no heartbeat. And really that’s what they said. They said there’s no heartbeat. And that’s really all they said. And I was even thinking about this before we got on the call today. And I was talking to my dad about it actually. And I was like, I remember calling my dad first because he was so excited that I was pregnant and he felt like you know, wow, you can have one more before you’re 40 you know, like he’s really into having kids and you know, that’s your legacy. And he always wanted he had three sisters and three daughters and he always wanted to sign and he’s always been a big supporter of having more kids so he cried on the phone with me I’m so lucky to have emotional like hearing men in my life like and him crying actually like I cried with him and I felt better from that
Victoria Volk 9:28
I grieve together and that that’s the thing like we want to grieve to be able to grieve in community so you don’t feel so alone. So you feel supported and how makes a difference?
Reena Friedman Watts 9:39
A big difference.
Victoria Volk 9:42
I’m curious to like how you felt when you go to the doctor, it feels like such a sterile environment. And is there anything when you when they know you’re coming, and you’re going to have this experience? I’m just curious like how is do they is it still like that? Is it still feel like, is it? Oh, he’s gonna have the baby. You know what I mean? Like when you have a baby, it’s, yeah, it’s a sterile environment, it’s a hospital, it looks like a hospital feels like a hospital. But when you’re going through something like that, it’s like to have like soft lighting or to have a warmer environment, or do you know what I mean? Like not to say, you know what I mean, like not to set the mood, but just to feel less like a clinical situation and more of like, a supported.
Reena Friedman Watts 10:33
So I went to like a doula and a midwife, versus going to a doctor’s office, and the lady who had delivered my third baby, did come into the room and hugged me. And she didn’t even say much. But that really also helped. Because the nurse prior to her was just like, there’s no heartbeat, and I’m sorry, and she’s like, you can have the room for five minutes. Like, she was not compassionate. And that actually brought me to tears. But, and what else was really hard, too, is, I feel like there should almost be two separate waiting rooms, like the one for the people that are pregnant and rubbing their bellies and happy and things are going well. And then another room for the ones that things aren’t going according to plan. Because when you walk out and you’re like red faced, and just experience something like that, and you have like husbands holding their wives belly is and all of these happy people, you’re just you feel like a cancer patient, you feel like you’re doing the walk of shame past these people, it’s really a difficult situation.
Victoria Volk 11:47
You’re literally looking at the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations right in front of you. Right? Yeah, so I totally understand where you’re coming from, I don’t understand it. But it just brings to light like hospitals and facilities. And they need to rethink how they take care of families and women in these situations, definitely to consider how they’re showing compassion and empathy and with the environment with, do they even go through, like some sort of compassionate course. You know, like something, you know, I don’t know, I’ve never thought about this. But that’s why I’m bringing this up. Because if you’re in health care, and you’re listening to this, and you deliver babies, listen up, it leaves an impression on people, and it leaves an imprint on your heart, right?
Reena Friedman Watts 12:38
Oh, most definitely. And I had told you on the podcast that we did together, when I went to they make you get a blood test, to monitor that your hormones level are decreasing, to make sure that everything is going out of your body. And again, like the nurse said to me, you’re the abort, that miscarriage, like that kind of slip up when you’re in that state was really like a low blow.
Victoria Volk 13:10
I’m sorry, you had to experience it that way. Really, you’re not the only one. I’m sure you’re not the only one. And that’s the thing. It’s, and as you know, I know we talked about it, I think when I was on your podcast, so miscarriage is one of the most minimize losses. And I think it’s this lack of understanding, maybe even compassion because you haven’t experienced it or empathy. Because I do think when you’ve experienced some level of loss and grief in your life, you do look at other people’s loss and grief with probably more compassion than you would if you have never experienced something that way. Because you can, it’s a little bit easier, I think, to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. Not that you Not that I know what you feel like or have or felt like, but I can’t imagine. But I can empathize. And I think that’s missing in just the healthcare system, in the regard of miscarriage, just in talking to you and other stories to not yours isn’t. That’s the thing. yours isn’t the only one that’s like that, really about that experience. You had mentioned about hormones, and I know that there’s something you’d like to share about hormones more so from I actually before someone comes on as a guest, I have them fill out a form. One of the questions I asked is what would you like to scream to the world and rayna wrote hormones or hell. So would you like to elaborate on that?
Reena Friedman Watts 14:45
They Oh my gosh. They make you cry to the littlest things. It could be or you know, that’s why so many women are crying during pregnancy but you when you nurse your hormone levels are still off. This happen can happen like up till two years after having a child, your hormone levels are not the same. And you’re more emotional, you’re sleep deprived and the combination of the two. I don’t know if I had postpartum depression, but I can tell you my hormones definitely made me crazy.
Victoria Volk 15:25
While and you would have had, they’re kind of close in age to right? the first the first miscarriage and then your first child, it would have been a little close in age, right?
Reena Friedman Watts 15:35
They would have been around exactly two years.
Victoria Volk 15:39
But you were still nursing even to or you just finished nursing. So just the combination of that and then having insole like when you have a miscarriage, the fluctuation of the hormones, I can’t imagine too, it’s almost like your system goes into a shock as well. Like your body goes into a shock I Imagine.
Reena Friedman Watts 15:59
oh my gosh, yeah, I would love to like track my hormone levels. And in those four years, because I went from being pregnant to having a miscarriage to having another kid to nursing until my third kid came. I mean, I was like nursing and having babies for four years. And then my third get I nursed for another two years. So I
Victoria Volk 16:22
And on top of the grief, right? Like all of that, like on top of the grief.
Reena Friedman Watts 16:27
Which I didn’t even really process. I don’t think like you were saying grief compounds. And sometimes you don’t think about it until you have another grief or you have something that happens in your life. And you think about all of these things at once. Like when I had another miscarriage, it just brought me back to how I felt that first time I felt a little bit more prepared for the second one. But there’s nothing that can prepare you for hearing the words there is no heartbeat and seeing a baby on the screen inside of you that’s dead. There’s nothing that can prepare you for that. When someone says that to you. And when you see that image on a screen, it will knock your breath breath out. It’s unreal.
Victoria Volk 17:19
I have three healthy children and I’ve never experienced that and I my mama heart goes out to yours are nodding you’re just not even once but twice. Like I can’t even imagine.
Reena Friedman Watts 17:31
You know my sister got pregnant. I was pregnant with both of my sisters with the last miscarriage. So they ended up having babies and I lost a baby when they had one. And I have to say like one of my sisters wasn’t necessarily so excited about being pregnant. But when I went through that it changed her entire perspective. So I felt like in some ways maybe that was good. Like she was much more grateful for the healthy baby she was able to have
Victoria Volk 18:08
and sometimes that’s all we need to as a perspective shift right? To see what is in front of us as it’s really hard to like in those times to win after the second miscarriage and all these all the changes that you went through. Like Where was your gratitude? Like Where? How did you find it? How did you get through what helped you the most?
Reena Friedman Watts 18:35
I know it’s gonna sound buddy, but I called my dad from the hospital. He grieved with me like you said, he cried with me. He was I honestly feel like in some ways, and my husband my husband doesn’t like when I say it, but he is part of the reason why I chose to have another one. Because I saw how much he wanted me to Oh, he was like, I could still add wonder 39 you know, and his dad had passed away and he really wanted and I named the baby after his dad. So my dad’s my dad’s dad was Marvin and I took the second half of that then and I call my baby Vinnie because he’s like the second half of his life. So his legal name is Marvin but I call him Vinnie.
Victoria Volk 19:31
So you actually mentioned to your grandfather is it
Reena Friedman Watts 19:34
so my mom like I said had me very young and I was fortunate enough to grow up with all four of my grandparents. And we all lived in Kentucky very close together, got together for holidays and you know, performances and my grandparents were like second parents to me. I really spent a lot of time with them pretty much most weekends until Middle School. My parents love to pawn me off and send me there on weekends. But my grandparents ate that up. That was the generation that they came from. They love to spoil me. They love to take me shopping, they love to take me to the grocery and honestly, just watching Jeopardy with them, or spending time with them was I treasured?
Victoria Volk 20:22
That sounds like that’s a blessing. Yeah, I didn’t really grow up with grandparents. So that’s a grief of mine, you know? So I’m sure that’s a treasure for you. Did you want to speak a little bit more to your grandfather? I know that was one thing that you had mentioned you wanted to talk about?
Reena Friedman Watts 20:39
Yeah, so my grandmother just celebrated her 92nd birthday yesterday. And it’s four years without my grandfather, and they were married for over 65 years. I was just praying that she was going to make it to this birthday. It’s been it’s been a hard year for her to be alone, my dad actually flew out to see her. I feel like just seeing my grandmother, you know, he’s my first grandparent to pass away and seeing her start to, you know, age. Whatever you want to call it. I feel like it’s just now she’s a whippersnapper. But seeing her starting to slow down. I feel like it’s the end of a chapter and you feel like oh, my God, like then your parents are next in line and you start thinking about that. That’s been humbling. Lately, that’s been something I’ve been thinking about. What is it to be next in line? And is that going to be my dad? Am I going to be taking care of him? How long? Is he going to be able to stand on his own two feet? Is he going to be the grandfather that my grandparents were? And if not, that’s okay, but who is he going to be? What’s he going to be thinking about end of life?
Victoria Volk 21:57
How do you communicate? I’m curious to how you communicate that with your kids, because your kids are growing up with their great grandparents? I mean, what a blessing to you know, so how do you communicate? Oh, have you been communicating?
Reena Friedman Watts 22:12
Well, I make them call and wish her a happy birthday. And they see how I have a very special connection with my grandparents, they definitely know that they know that me losing my grandfather was hard. We actually found out on a Saturday night. And then the funeral is Sunday. And we drove all the way from Chicago to New Jersey through the night to be there. So they know how important that those relationships have been to me. But I feel sad in some ways that they’re not having as many memories, but I also believe that God gives you what you need, right? So maybe I was the kid that needed that. You know, my mom had me at 18. I had them a decade later. So maybe we’re different parents.
Victoria Volk 23:06
How did your dad communicate with you about grief?
Reena Friedman Watts 23:09
Oh my gosh, my dad wears his heart on his sleeve. Have we had a conversation directly about grief? I’m not sure if we have in regards to your episode, even he talks about how important it is to know yourself. And he has such a strong sense of self. And purpose. I actually envy that about him. He is so clear as to why he’s here and what his legacy is and who he is. And it’s funny because growing up I didn’t like that. I was like God, you don’t care what anybody thinks he is the guy that is literally happy with his lot. He doesn’t want to travel the world. He doesn’t want a bigger house. He doesn’t want fancier things. He is so happy with who he is and what God has given him. I really want to be more like that. So back to your question. How does he see grief? I think he really tries to make the best of life.
Victoria Volk 24:10
Well and I think to like just tell you explain how he wore his he wears his heart on his sleeve. And so that gives you permission to do the same. You may not have had a specific conversation about grief. But to be that example of showing your feelings and expressing your feelings as being okay. It’s like having the conversation without having it.
Reena Friedman Watts 24:35
Not only that, but he flew down to Florida to spend my grandmother’s 92nd birthday with her in a mask. He’s risking you know she hasn’t left her place in seven months and he wanted to make sure that she had the salmon dinner that she wanted you know, so he is with her and of days he is with her till the end. He is a soldier till the end. He’s with her I have to decline. And unfortunately, he calls her every day. He calls me every day, he tells me, I wouldn’t want to be in this life without you.
Victoria Volk 25:10
No wonder you have a podcast named better called daddy. It sounds like and that’s the thing, like, the examples that we have in our lives, definitely contribute to how we address and deal with our own grief and how we can then pass the torch and do the same for our children makes a big difference, to feel supported, to feel held to feel that it’s okay to not be okay.
Reena Friedman Watts 25:40
I just thought of something else. That’s funny, my grandmother said, you know, if you lay down and act like a doormat, in today’s day and age, people will step on you and use you as one, you better keep moving.
Victoria Volk 25:52
That’s a good piece of advice.
Reena Friedman Watts 25:55
Unfortunately, Drew, and she has been able to take care of herself, honestly, for the most part until 92 years old. I’m like Grandma, amazing, really, I even said to my dad is like that. She has done it as long as she can. And God loves her 92 she has been, you know, amazing. But she needs more help. It’s time, like she does. I’m like she cannot cook her meals anymore. You know,
Victoria Volk 26:22
How is she dealing with that? You know, how is she dealing with being faced with? Like, that’s great for her. I imagine. I mean, she lost the love of her life four years ago, and now she sees her mortality ahead of her. You know, does she How does she communicate that? Was she that example for your dad? Like, is this something that your dad learned? Like, how he deals with things life? Like? Has he learned that from her?
Reena Friedman Watts 26:53
That’s a great question. I will say that two days ago, or even a day ago, she said to me, and she’s never said this to me before. waking up every day is a gift and you hear that. But she feels that now. And it’s funny because at the end of my grandfather’s life, the last thing I remember him saying to me is how do you get more time. And I feel like when people start saying things like that, they’re definitely thinking about the next world,
Victoria Volk 27:20
You have such a unique perspective, because you do have your grandparents. And it’s this is I talk a lot about generational learning, especially when it comes to grief and how the things that we learn, you know, when we pass on, we pass on to our kids. And so that’s why I was very curious how your dad learned his philosophy of life.
Reena Friedman Watts 27:45
I would say it’s from his parents, for sure. I he had a great example. I mean, they were married, I think 66 years. And he worked alongside them for his entire career in a family business, not knowing how to do business, but he learned how to really relationship, build and sell and all of those things from them.
Victoria Volk 28:08
And like we said earlier, entrepreneurship. Oh, yeah, well, in a girl’s you, in so many ways, there’s a lot of benefits to it. So what is one tip that you would give other hurting hearts that may have experienced what you have? Or just in your business that you have been in the work that you have done? Like anything that you’ve learned along the way?
Reena Friedman Watts 28:37
Call my daddy you know.
Victoria Volk 28:41
Your dad maybe needs to put a hotline? What would daddy say? It’s true, Daddy say.com.
Reena Friedman Watts 28:51
Daddy’s taking questions, I really should put that at the end of my show. Um, I think a tip that I would give is find someone who you feel comfortable and not judged by that you can really open up to you. I think if I’ve learned one thing this year and through COVID it’s that and I heard someone say this on my podcast, you know, 50% of people are gonna like you. And those are the 50 that’s who you should be giving your attention to. Why spend your time on the people who are going to judge you spend the time on the people who love you.
Victoria Volk 29:26
That’s true. And that’s engraved too, right? Yeah, because in grief, you know, heart with yours. I mentioned it before. I’ve said it many times, to be a heart with yours. It’s not judging, analyzing or criticizing in a safe person to just hold you in your sadness.
Reena Friedman Watts 29:47
It makes all the difference. I’m telling you that doula who hugged me and said nothing. I felt okay. I felt better.
Victoria Volk 29:56
And that’s actually a tip I’m going to bring up a tip. So If someone is what we learn in grief recovery, and I’ll share this with you, and I’ll share it with everyone listening, when someone is grieving, and you go to hug them, you’re not released the hug until they do, because maybe they need that time. Maybe they just, you know, maybe they’ll start crying, maybe that’s what they need. But if you are giving them a hug, if you ask permission, yeah, hug you. Sometimes people don’t want to be hugged. But ask, you know, may I give you a hug. And if they want a hug, do not release the hug until they do
Reena Friedman Watts 30:35
You know what that just reminded me of this is so random. There is a woman who I kept running into, in Israel at the Western Wall, and God loved this woman. She asked me for charity every single time and I went there because I was on like a summer trip. And I must have run into her at least 10 times. And I think on the last day or something, I was getting ready to leave the country even. I sat down with her. And it was like you Tell me your story, you know? And she was like, Can you read my shoulders. And I remember her sweater being super crusty and hard. And I did it though. And then I listened to her story. And I remember hugging that crusty sweater at the end of it. And her actually like, holding on to me, I don’t know why your story just reminded me of that. But I felt better doing that than all of the money I had given her and all of those 10 separate occasions. I actually felt like close to her from doing that. It’s amazing what touch can do.
Victoria Volk 31:50
Absolutely. I love that story. Awesome
Reena Friedman Watts 31:54
It’s a crazy story. And I haven’t thought about that in years. I was like, why? And what else is interesting is like, there’s an exit ramp off the highway, and my dad always gives and I’m like, Dad, I’m like, it’s the same guy every day. Like, you know what I mean? Like, are you gonna run out? I’m like, he’s like, well, if God puts him in my path, and he’s got to ask, I gotta give and I’m like, Oh my gosh, I definitely learned that from him. But I’m a little bit more. I mean, with COVID, especially, but just more scared of people that my dad, my dad rolls down the window, and like, What if he could like, reach in or whatever, and I’m a mom of four. So I would give to an organization versus like the man on the street. But these are things that we learn right? back to that,
Victoria Volk 32:39
What is, I know you’ve said to like, just to have, you didn’t really have a lot of time. Now we’re going to go back to your experiences and stuff, but you didn’t have a lot of time to process. Do you feel like, I don’t know how many years? It’s been since but do you feel like that passage of time because people say, well, Time heals all wounds? That’s a myth, by the way, What has time done for you?
Reena Friedman Watts 33:06
So? That’s a good question. It’s really strange. But when you have a miscarriage early on, people are always like, oh, how far along were you? Not that that makes it any better like a lie. You know, once you know you’re pregnant, and once you see it, you’re excited, and you have all these emotions and all these hormones, but I have friends that have lost babies a lot farther along, I’ve had friends that have lost them full term, I have one friend who had to have a late term abortion because the baby’s head didn’t grow together. And I think if I were in a situation like that, I don’t know if I would ever get over it. My grandmother actually lost a full term baby, and she lost a baby in a month old. And I think that was devastating to her devastating to my grandfather, I think it’s something that they’ve never forgotten. I think when you lose one, in the first three months, maybe because both of mine were like that, I feel like you’re able to tell yourself that it’s from God and that, you know, I don’t know, you’re able to dismiss it more. It’s so small, it doesn’t really look or feel like a baby yet. To me, it looks like tissue, you know, and yes, I had contractions and yes, I had, you know, the feeling of being pregnant and you know, your emotions, all these things, but I think if I would have felt the baby move, or if I would have had to make that call, I think it would have been much more devastating. My two friends that experience that both had to get outside help, and they never had to before. One of my friends it was her first child and another one of my friends was actually pregnant with me this last time and it was her fourth child. Oh, that was really hard to because when I had the three pound baby and she lost a baby that was four and a half pounds, she said to me, how did you know to go in? And truthfully I didn’t. I just knew that I had missed a doctor’s appointment, my kid at a play like the week before, and I was like, I think I missed a doctor’s appointment. And as soon as I you know, you’re a busy mom of three or like, you forget things. So the moment I realized I had forgotten as a guide, I was like, this baby doesn’t move that much. I was like, the only time I really feel him is like when I go to sleep, or when I eat. So the next day I went in, and then when I went in, they told me that the heart rate was going up and down that the placenta was detaching, they were like, at my kid was home from school sick. They were like, you need to go to the hospital. And then they monitored me. And then they didn’t even tell me but they were like prepping me for a C section. And, you know, they make you sign the paperwork when you go in. And that was very emotional, too, because I had had three natural births. And I was like, really into, like, the empowerment of being able to do that. And I had to sign that away. And there, the baby would not have survived if I would have tried to do things differently. So I guess that’s a trauma in some ways.
Victoria Volk 36:13
Absolutely. Well, yeah, absolutely. And so that’s why I’m curious. And through the passage of time, how have you like what are things that you have done to?
Or do you feel like you’ve healed a lot
Reena Friedman Watts 36:28
I think talking about it really is healing. And truthfully, the more I talk to people on my show about experiences that they’ve had, there are so many people that are afraid to be vulnerable. I cannot tell you how many people have messaged me in DMS now from some of the stories that I’ve heard, telling me that they could never air those things. But they would love to talk to me and I said, let’s do it. I have a call next week with a girlfriend from college that I had no idea what happened to her. And she was like, I could never share this. And if I shared it, it would be anonymous, do you want to have a call and I’m like, I’d love to catch up with you. So I really do think that talking is healing. And I have been way more vulnerable than I planned to be just from other people being vulnerable. It makes you feel more comfortable.
Victoria Volk 37:21
When in grief recovery to I go first, like as a facilitator of the program, I go first. And, and that’s the thing, like you can’t expect other people to share and open up if you’re not willing to do the same. And I’ve shared things too, that I never thought I would you know, through just the past year.
Reena Friedman Watts 37:44
I know that we talked about that on my podcast, or like, I’m not talking about that. Have you been able to break through?
Victoria Volk 37:50
Not yet.
But me on the spot. This is my show. It’s hard. It is
It is hard. There are so many, so many things I’m passionate about in terms of when it comes to grief and trauma, and how trauma is like stored in our bodies. And so what you had said, you know, that experience of just the process of having to still like deliver a baby that you’re not going home with, and that just everything that you shared, that sticks in us that that stays somewhere, you know, mostly imprinted on us
Reena Friedman Watts 38:36
If he told me to go home and take a couple Advil and brace yourself. And hopefully it comes out and let us know if it doesn’t. And they’re like, and then just come back. And we’ll monitor that your hormone levels went down so that you don’t have to have a DNC and luckily, luckily, my body did make everything come out. But that’s a tough way of saying things. Go take a couple Advil and call me in the morning.
Victoria Volk 39:05
Yeah, it just comes again it comes back to just like having like some sort of compassion course or something for people that you know and is it I wonder if it’s not a little bit about something that they see so often you almost come become desensitized to it in a way and I imagine that’s great for them to to see that day in and day out in their career. Like Actually, this is a really like sad fact. But veterinarians, the suicide rate in veterinarians is actually quite high. It’s one of the highest professions of suicide, right? Because you they go into that profession because they love it so much. But what do they do day in and day out? They euthanize animals, they put animals to sleep, they see animal suffering. It takes a special person to be able to do that. And it takes a special person to Be able to sit with someone in a moment like such as yours. But I think too, there is a danger in becoming, as a society desensitized to something. And where it’s not normalized by communicating about it, and how to communicate about it. Right?
Reena Friedman Watts 40:22
So many scares along the way? I had a tear. So I since I had had a miscarriage before I was like, Oh, no, there’s blood, it must be a miscarriage, but I actually had a tear, and then the tear healed. And I also was 39. So, you know, they say, do you want to take additional tests? And the fact that I’d had a miscarriage before? So then Are you high risk, you know, there’s so many scares along the way. And, like, you were bringing up the sensitivity training. You know, it’s like, you get one little piece of good news. And then you’re like, has there been someone like me that has been at this point that is still heard bad news, you know, like, you want somebody to tell it to you straight, but at the same time, you’re like, can you prepare me like, Oh, it’s, Oh, my gosh, this child is such such a miracle.
Victoria Volk 41:23
I just had an idea. This isn’t too for like doctors offices, listen up. For people that for women that have to go in to, you know, like you said, you have to go into in certain watch women with their bellies full and happy. And you know, with the expecting a baby, and everything’s good, and all of that, and you’re sitting in the same waiting room, it’s like, not only to have your own waiting room, but then to have someone sitting with you like volunteers of women who have gone through it. Like, wouldn’t that be amazing?
Reena Friedman Watts 41:59
I actually have reached out to people in the community that have posted after a miscarriage, and said, Hey, if you need somebody to talk to you, I’ve been there. One thing about that, though, is depending on the person, and how far along they are, sometimes I’ve seen, they don’t feel like they can relate to you. So everybody reacts differently, like sometimes they can be happy that you’ve reached out and sometimes it can be offensive even.
Victoria Volk 42:32
That’s true. Well, and I think too, like it can’t just be someone who, you know, maybe, you know, maybe has had that experience, but maybe, maybe has had sensitivity training themselves, or has done some, like a grief recovery specialist, you know, or someone like I haven’t had a miscarriage, but I feel comfortable and competent in sitting with someone, regardless of their loss. But I can see where someone who’s going through that would want someone maybe that has had that shared experience. Even it’s funny. But similar,
Reena Friedman Watts 43:10
Even with divorce, like I was casting for a divorce court show, and I’m standing there with a baby strapped to my chest and beyond handing out flyers casting for the show. And they’re like, are you divorced, in order for somebody to want to open up to you about the trauma that they’re going through, even with something like that, they want to know, if you’re in the same boat
Victoria Volk 43:33
That comes back to we tend to compare losses in society, too. And, you know, well, I’ve lost a baby. And I lost my dad, you know, and so it’s their polar opposite losses, very different losses. In my experience, grief is grief. No matter which way you slice it. And my grief is my grief and your grief is your grief. And it’s going to be different and unique, because I’m unique, and you’re different and unique. We’re all unique, you know, and so our grief is no different individual to us. How do you feel the person that you were before you’ve experienced loss to the person you are today? How do you feel you have grown through grief?
Reena Friedman Watts 44:21
I do think that grief is an aging process. I think as a child, you can’t even really wrap your head around it. Like when I took my kids to my grandfather’s funeral because it was a quick overnight trip. We didn’t have time to make plans for them. And I wasn’t even sure I wanted to bring them. But what did my kids notice about that? They noticed the people who were the most vocal criers or you know as a kid, he just can’t even really process was happening. I was worried about bringing them because they were young and they were seeing somebody being put into the ground. And I hadn’t really ever talked to them about that. Oh, that is such a good question. I actually only think I’ve ever seen one dead person my entire life, because in the Jewish circles, everything is closed casket, but I had a friend growing up, they got hit by a drunk driver. And he had an open casket, I will never get that out of my mind. That was traumatizing, actually. And I have a girlfriend, who was a very close friend of mine growing up and her brother got hit by an older gentleman. And he was in his 20s. And I remember that grief on her parents faces, it was like their souls are sucked out of them. losing a child is such, especially a 24 year old was a grief I had never seen before. And I still remember how they sounded crying. I was in my 20s, though. So I think in your 20s, you’re able to start understanding it better and kind of get out of your selfishness. But in your 40s, I think you start thinking about life, and the meaning of your life. In reaction to death.
Victoria Volk 46:11
It goes back to when you had said, what was it that your grandma had said, every day as a gift every day is a gift, but to really for you to hear that for the first time it seemed and
Reena Friedman Watts 46:24
And hearing her saying that while shutting her eyes and saying it slowly and thoughtfully, was scary, and profound. And I was like, Oh my god, she is really thankful for every day at this point. And every day to her right now is a gift. Like we take every day for granted when we’re in our 20s. But when you’re at 92, and you’ve had a stroke and a heart attack, and you’re alone for seven months, and you’re only visitors coming for your birthday, when you say every day is a gift those words ring so much louder.
Victoria Volk 47:00
And I think too like even in her 40s take it for granted easily.
Reena Friedman Watts 47:06
I definitely do. You still go to bed mad? About silly things.
Victoria Volk 47:13
There’s no do overs either.
Reena Friedman Watts 47:15
Can I ask you one question? Sure. Do you love grief?
Victoria Volk 47:18
Grief is my jam. I’ve had a life long relationship with it lifelong. Every experience I’ve ever had, has prepared me to start a podcast about grief. It’s no longer like
Reena Friedman Watts 47:36
Hello, grief, my old friend.
Victoria Volk 47:39
We meet again, because it’s life, right? And that’s the joy and the sorrow. and everything in between is the duality of life. And we can’t escape it, we can’t get around it. We just have to go through it like a buffalo aces, like a buffalo faces a storm, they don’t. They go right through it, they don’t skirt around it, they don’t run away from it, they go through it. And I guess that’s the analogy I would give about grief is that there’s no way out. the only the only way out is through and whatever that looks like for you. And however you get to the other side of it. And you know, whatever tools you learn along the way, and whoever you talk to, and whatever shoulders, you rub and hear their stories, whatever you take away from them. Their perspective. There’s, we have so much to learn from each other. in society, and especially through our grief, and our grieving voices.
Reena Friedman Watts 48:42
I feel like there was grief in that woman’s sweater. And how crazy that she wanted me to touch her. She felt some sort of closeness for me giving her charity more than once. And for me running into her a bunch of times on that special summer on that special trip.
Victoria Volk 48:59
And you know what? how sad it would have been if it would have been somebody else. And they would have said, touching you not touching that sweater.
Reena Friedman Watts 49:09
I still remember what that felt like I don’t think I’ve ever done that. I’ve never felt that anywhere else.
Victoria Volk 49:16
You were a blessing to her that day.
Reena Friedman Watts 49:18
So crazy that God put her on my path. And what kind of grief She must have experienced.
Victoria Volk 49:25
And that brings up a good point because it’s it’s when we often see people who just look like they’ve seen better days. And you know, might even be angry. It might be the lady at the checkout line. It might be you know the boss that’s just really down your throat, whatever it is. I think it’s so easy to be reactive. Instead of thinking about well, what’s going on like what happened? How did you get to this place? How did you get to be so angry and What happened to you? Is we all have a story. We all have experienced grief on some level. Most of us I think, like 99.9. I mean, I don’t know that I’ve ever met somebody who has not experienced any loss. Whether it’s even just a pet, bankruptcy, financial ruin, lost a business, or maybe their house burned. I mean, we all experienced loss, we just don’t think of it as grief, because it’s not someone dying. But no one has to die for us to experience grief. And like I said, you know, on your podcast, you know, grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. And so like, we have all these experiences that stack up and every one of us has a book within us, because that’s life. Like your grandma said, it’s every single day is a blessing and we can’t no joy without the sorrow. And maybe that was her message and saying that
Reena Friedman Watts 50:59
I should totally call her tonight. Yeah, do that. You know, it’s interesting to her English birthday is the same day as my Hebrew birthday this year. And that’s I don’t know if that’s happened before but my sister lives in Israel now. And she sent me that I was like, Wow, that’s really interesting that she made that connection. So I celebrated my birthday yesterday and I’m going to celebrate it again and two more days.
Victoria Volk 51:20
Awesome. Yeah, definitely call her
Reena Friedman Watts 51:24
Pretty cool. I don’t know how many times that’s occurred in her 92 years but pretty special as
Victoria Volk 51:30
Well. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Reena Friedman Watts 51:33
Check out my podcast.
Victoria Volk 51:35
Yes,
and where can people find you?
Reena Friedman Watts 51:39
Bettercalldaddy.com. All the past episodes are there and I am a LinkedIn a Holic so you can connect with me on LinkedIn at Reena Friedman Watts or Instagram Reena Freedman Watts or Facebook Rena Friedman Watts. I have been working on my
Victoria Volk 51:55
That’s W A T T S.
Reena Friedman Watts 51:57
Yes, Rena, with two E’s and watts with two T’s. I’ve been working on my branding that everything matches across platforms because I’m making it easier for people although my Twitter is still Reena Reena,
Victoria Volk 52:10
Reena Reena, I like that. Well, thank you so much for being here.
We covered a lot.
I don’t want in all kinds of directions today. And that’s I love that. never know what to expect.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:22
I love that too.
Victoria Volk 52:23
Well, thank you for being here and for sharing your story and putting me in the hot seat a little bit.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:31
I’m so excited to see like your whole evolution. It’s really awesome to be a part of it.
Victoria Volk 52:38
You’ve been such a supportive friend. So thank you. Thank you so much.
Reena Friedman Watts 52:43
Anytime, anytime, if you ever just want to talk. Yeah, give you a virtual hug.
Victoria Volk 52:49
Likewise. Alright, well, thank you, everybody for listening, and I’ll catch you next week with another episode. In the meantime, take care of yourselves. Much love
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways, Reflections, & Elaborations from Ep. 12 & 13: How We Live is How We Die & Grief in Men vs Women
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Through the conversation on Episode 12 with Patsy, the conversation led to how we live is how we die – “a good death.” Through personal example, I illustrate how grief and loss during life do, indeed, impact our bodies until our very last breath.
I then go into my thoughts on how men and women grieve differently, as it was briefly mentioned in Episode 13 in my conversation with Patti.
When we are resistant to life, we are resistant to death – I wholeheartedly believe this. Take a listen to this week’s episode and then consider if the emotional energy you’re carrying around is negatively impacting how you are living and how you perceive death and dying.
And also, how it’s less about what our gender is when it comes to grief and more about how much we’ve allowed ourselves to dig deep, that has the most significant impact on how we grieve. Perhaps the greater differentiator of gender and grief is how we choose to (or not to) process it. That’s for another episode!
I leave you with some questions to ponder at the end of this episode. More in-depth questions are our guideposts for change. We always have the answers to revert back to – to keep us on track.
Resources mentioned in this episode that have aided my healing:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Okay, today I am talking about my takeaways and elaborations and reflections on previous podcast episodes I had Episode 12 with Patsy and Episode 13 with Patti. And Patsy her grieving voice story was sharing about caring for her dying father closing a business and divorce. And Patty shared in Episode 13 about being a widow, a young widow at that, and her struggle with her new family husband, with miscarriage and IVF. And so I want to start with Episode 12. And Patsy and Patsy had already started personal development work at the time that her father had become ill and had experienced so much loss in such a short period of time. And from what she shared it had helped her and served her well in being able to be there for her dad despite any conflicting feelings she may have had about their relationship.
So my takeaway with that episode is that it’s never too soon. And it’s never too late to start asking yourself better questions, which really, to me is one of the key components of transformation, or change of any kind, which is you developing the best version of you that you wish to express to the world. And I could do a whole episode on this topic alone, of how grief and loss is personal development because it forces us to ask ourselves deeper questions. Anyway, in the same vein, what if we get to the end of our life? And we never invested time in ourselves to ask those deeper questions. Like, wouldn’t it be great if? Or what do I need to do to be the person I want to be? Or what is the one thing that is hard for me to change about myself, but I know it would be the most impactful right now? And also another example, what are things I can do today for myself, to help myself feel better, be better, and ultimately be happier. Then I agree with the nurse that Patsy shared in her story, that we die exactly how we live and if we resist dying, are afraid of it, or filled with anxiety and emotional pain, and maybe even disease and ultimately don’t experience a good death.
All about Sacral Chakra
A term I’ve heard often throughout my life. My dad did not have a good death. He was wrought with sorrow and fear. As a Vietnam vet, he came home a very different person inside and did his best to lock that pain away. Not to mention the grief he had endured prior to service. He ended up dying of colon cancer at the age of 44. I am 41. And at the age of 36, I had colon polyps removed. So now I have a five year screening. And our colons are actually located in our Sacral Chakra, which relates to vitality, sensation in our relationships with others. It’s where despair is in symptoms of blockages of our Sacral Chakra are constipation, back pain, gynecological cysts, irregular menstruation, infertility, depression, jealousy, low self-esteem, isolation and detachment from society, and even addictive behavior. I’ve also in the last two years have had precancerous mole removed, and my grandmother died of melanoma. But get this even though going back to my dad’s colon cancer, even though several of my dad’s immediate family all had colon cancer to including his dad, his brother, and I actually think his mother as well. I know it was documented, but I haven’t. I’m not exactly sure on that. But we ended up having genetic testing when my grandmother was still alive, and it revealed no genetic link.
Healing Myself through Grief Recovery and Reiki
So how is it that so many people in my father’s family, including himself, all had colon cancer. I’m getting off topic and perhaps this is for another episode. But as a Reiki Master, and learning more and more about energy and emotions, and how our minds and bodies and emotional energy are all connected, it’s been blowing my mind what I’ve been learning. Circling back to how we live, and how we die. In a nutshell, if we do not bring our attention to our inner environment, then whatever what has been emotionally incomplete for us, our resentment towards a parent was, who was emotionally or physically unavailable, or if there was sexual abuse or other trauma, we carry that in our bodies, until the day we die, unless we do something about it, right?
These experiences are emotional imprints that change us on a cellular level. And there are things we can do to help ourselves. There are ways we can take the reigns of our inner experience. And I have personally found grief recovery and Reiki imperative and instrumental in healing myself on a cellular level, to rewire my brain and do the work that helps those emotional imprints fade away, energy, emotion, mind, body, they’re all connected, and how we live and how we die.
How do Men and Women experience life, grief, loss and emotions differently?
And this is kind of briefly touched on in the episode 13. As I mentioned, with Patti, truthfully, I don’t have data to say how different we do grieve from our counterparts. All I can speak to are generalizations because again, you can have two people, a man or a woman who both experienced the same loss. And in Patty’s story, a miscarriage and the ups and downs of IVF. And depending on how much personal development work they’ve done, will be reflected in how they grieve. The woman carries the baby feels the baby move, nourishes the baby and develops a connection to the growing child that no man could ever understand, or will ever experience. So once that is gone, and taken unexpectedly, there is a void that’s experienced very differently. Someone who experiences a loss for the very first time will likely handle it very differently than someone who has experienced several or many losses prior because like anything, the more experience and knowledge you have about anything in life will change how you react, adapt, and change. And many of us berry berry berry, until like me, after five years of personal development and learning that there’s another loss. That seems to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. And for me, that loss had me asking myself, why is this affecting me as much as it is and serving as a reminder on a physical and emotional level of all the decades of loss and trauma I experienced years before?
It’s as if everything just bubbled to the surface. And I believe we all experienced that one cherry on top loss, the one that like a game of Jenga, you put that piece on top, and they all come crumbling down at once. And here’s the thing, I handled that loss very differently. And it prompted me to take action to help myself and gave birth to this strong desire in light led me to my purpose, which is often discovered in our pain and in our own story. In this process is very different for everyone, including men. And I think it depends on your upbringing, where you grew up, how grief was talked about how much grief and loss was experienced in life. And only blanket statement I can say is that females tend to be more emotionally expressive than males. But again, not all, and not always. So as I’ve been giving this thought since Patty’s episode, I don’t know if it’s more that men and women grieve differently, or just that we all grieve differently, because we’re all wired differently, and have a different and have had different life experiences that shaped us, and our views and perceptions.
So that is my very quick take on and reflections on the episodes 12 and 13 with Patsy, and Patty, just give some thought to what I shared today, those deep questions that I pondered, myself included, I’ve really been digging into the emotional energy side of the loss I’ve endured and suffering and all of that. And it’s really been bringing up things for me as of late, but it’s been good. I’m handling it very differently now than I would have and did five years ago, five years ago, I felt absolutely crazy. And you can kind of feel that way when some of the old is being shed to bring the new to the light.
P.S. And so I challenge you today, what do you want to shed from the old you so that the you that you desire to be can be brought to the light? If you find this posts helpful please share it because sharing is caring. Much love my friend.
Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Takeaways and Reflections |
Takeaways & Reflections from Ep. 15 & 16: Shifting Perspective, Giving Ourselves Grace, & Expectations
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
There were some wonderful insights shared by guests Susay Ways on Episode 15 and Danielle Duffey on Episode 16.
In this episode, I share some highlights and dig a little more deeply into some of the topics we only scratched the surface of during the interviews.
Learn more about how I got through my grief, shifting energy and perspective, and how we want others to perceive us can actually hurt us more than help.
Moving on to Danielle’s episode, I dig a bit more into the importance of allowing ourselves to feel, how expectations can be a detriment to a marriage, in general, but particularly during grief and, how we’re all really not that different.
I feel like this episode could have been longer, so if there is a topic you want me to cover more deeply about these or any other episodes, please email me at [email protected].
Also, in today’s episode, I mention that today, Tuesday 10/20-10/27, there’s also a 2-Book Giveaway going on over at theunleashedheart.com The link to register is below!
Episode Mentions:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
This is Episode 17 Takeaways and Reflections from episodes 15 with Susan ways on the loss of her spouse, friendships, transition and discovering her needs. In Episode 16 with Danielle Duffy of bereaved mothers mission for joy. In this episode, I’m titling it, We find what we’re looking for.
How Grief Recovery Can Help Us
So I’d like to start with Susan ways episode which was Episode 15 on the loss of her husband and some friendships and just transitioning from a career and discovering what she needed in the start of her podcast actually two tendrils of grief. And the one thing that I noted that she had said was, she said I needed someone to say I got through this and here is how. That is exactly what I find myself sharing with other Grievers. I got through this and this is how. When it comes to grief recovery, I was 30 plus years griever I still am a griever not was I still am to be honest, lost doesn’t just we just don’t forget about it right? I will never see my father with my children. And I’ve missed out on many moments within myself. And so that doesn’t go away. As we all go through phases and stages of our lives and you know, there’s an empty seat at the table that just doesn’t fade to the background of our lives it’s ever present. And when I experienced grief recovery, it allowed me to not think of everything from the past and then feel pain and sorrow. It has allowed me to embrace and reflect and come to an awareness of how it’s prepared me to do the work that I do now in helping others in being a better parent. When it comes to the grief that my children inevitably will experience in their life, and my friends, my other family, and I just feel like I say it on nearly every episode, I do try and mention grief recovery, because it is one of those things that has been around for over 40 years, however, many people have never heard of it.
You know, it’s only recently in the last few years, where it’s been a more of an online presence, where it’s being shared more widely, and it is on every continent, we have grieved, specialists, even in Guam, and all over the world. So this is really, there’s nothing like it. There’s really just nothing like it. And I’m starting to see a thread, a common theme and a thread in all of the interviews that I’ve done. And one thing that Grievers will mention when they’re sharing their stories is in kind of the one thing that a lot of them want to scream to the world is there’s no right or wrong way to grieve, which I absolutely agree with. And there’s no one cookie cutter or one way to not read the pain. But to move on from it. I really struggle when I hear that because it makes me first of all, it kind of makes me sad for the Grievers sharing their story because I know how phenomenal this program is. And perhaps those who share feel like they’re doing really well, like they’ve they’re doing well in their life. And they’ve been able to transmute that pain into something positive and find some good in it. And I do see a lot of hope, in the stories that people have shared so far with me.
How Grief Recovery Transform the Lives of the People
The other thing I want to mention is that I too thought I was okay, for a very long time, many years. And we often have, in my experience, I can speak for myself had many losses throughout my life. But there’s that one loss, it’s like the tipping point, or like I cannot take any more and they seek therapy or they seek some sort of support, they finally reach out their hand and they’re willing to accept help. I just feel like this is something that grief recovery is something that may feel like a promise to people and people are leery promises, they say expectations or plan disappointments, but I wholeheartedly believe in this program. And I don’t care what your loss was, and what you’ve experienced. I’ve seen it transform the lives of people who have had religion used against them who have had terrible atrocities committed to them again, there’s just nothing like it. And it is skills and knowledge that you will have for the rest of your life that you can apply to your life for the rest of your life.
And also gives you an education that you can share with your peers, with your family with anyone else who you know who is grieving. I just feel like there’s this almost like this. I’ll believe it when I see it. You know, it’s not magic. Grief recovery isn’t magic. But I can tell you, in my experience in my heart, it felt like magic. Because when I was carrying so much that I was caring for so long, and to feel that boulder being taken away from me for the very first time. It truly felt like magic. So I just want you to consider you know, when I mentioned grief recovery, when you hear other Grievers saying that this didn’t work, or that thing didn’t work, or, you know, find your own way or, and that’s true, that’s very true. Like I found my way to grief recovery. And look how long it took me. But you have to be open and ready, an open mind is probably three fourths of it. Because if you’re sitting there and one of my groups and you’re closed off to the experience, it probably won’t help you. And so it really does take an open mind. So I just wanted to share that because of what she shared was, you know, that quote, I got through this. And here is how that she needed someone to tell her that and this is my answer to that question to that statement that she made in her episode.
Shifting and Changing Energy to Attract Hope
And I just wanted to dig a little deeper into my perspective of that we also talked about when you shift and change your energy to attract hope in the form of people and experiences that nurture that hope for you and for your future. That’s really to when you find hope we tend to find what we’re looking for. If you’re looking for a magic bullet or you’re looking for an overnight flip of a switch or you’re looking for just something just to take away the pain like yesterday. I don’t know that you’re having feeling of hope in those moments. I don’t know that you really can feel hope that feels more like desperation. desperation can actually lead to hope in that once we’re desperate and we’re sick of our own crap, we tend to also maybe look for things that can help us. And we tend to reach out for help. And so desperation can lead to hope. But in those moments, it doesn’t feel like hope. But once we start shifting our energy, and we start to really pay attention to our thought process, and what we’re thinking on a daily basis, about our grief about the past, anything like that, we can tend to attract more of that.
So I thought it was a wonderful point that she brought up, I heard a term for the first time during Susan’s podcast interview as well. And it was, she mentioned non-versation. And it’s when you’re talking with someone, and they just keep going on and on and on complaining about something, but they have no action plan on how to change it. And you get to that point in relationship with someone where that’s the bulk of the conversations, and you have a non conversation that is a very one sided conversation, isn’t it? When we kind of get wrapped up in our own stories, really, I think it stems from not digging into our own grievances, and asking ourselves better questions. So we just kind of ruminate, and do and then we look to others, to stew with us. And you know, and all that really does, it just adds to more suffering for us. And it’s that suffering, emotional energy that is perpetuated, as we keep talking about it with whomever is willing to listen, she also brought up, you know, when people judge you and treat you, the way that they perceive your life is going really as true, I believe, too, and that people can paint a really glamorous picture of their lives or a very wholesome, grounded image for themselves.
And inside, they could be crumbling, when people judge you and treat you the way that they perceive your life is going imagine then too, if they perceive or treat you as if you are a basket case, or perceive you as if you’re falling apart, they’ll treat you differently, they believe that you have it all put together, they’ll treat you as if you have it all put together, right? So we do tend to judge and treat people how we perceive their life is going and that’s cause a bit of reflection. For me, I think it was a beautiful point to bring across. And I wanted to highlight that again, on this episode, both the non versation aspect and also when you yourself may feel judged or treated differently, you know, What, are you living authentically? Are you telling the emotional truth about yourself? Those are questions to ask yourself, because if you are trying to I mean, it takes a lot of effort and energy to come across as if you’re all put together and you have it all figured out and you’re doing fine. You know, that takes a lot of energy, you’re also not getting help either or support when you’re doing that.
Feel Empowerment rather than Disempowerment
So I just want to encourage you to consider that as well. It’s okay to ask for help. And you know, and that’s okay to vent. I’m not saying that calling a friend up and complaining about a situation isn’t that we all don’t do it. I mean, I know I have but I have gotten to where I have this awareness, I really try and focus on what my thoughts are throughout the day, and it changes everything. It just shifts your perspective for the whole day. And I don’t find myself complaining about situations or maybe even people probably as often as I used to for sure. And really those moments just start holding a mirror to us ask ourselves like why is this causing me to have this reaction? Because you know, really, that’s a lot of power we give other people when we allow something they say or do to have such an impact on our lives that we feel the need to spend hours on the phone with friends and confidence talking about it. It’s a lot of emotional energy wasted.
And it’s a lot of power we are giving other people in our lives and so I just want to encourage you to feel empowerment because that feels a whole lot better than feeling disempowered. I hope that was helpful. And again, if you haven’t listened to Episode 15 with Susan Ways feel like there’s something for everyone In that episode, she mentions two big part about social media, which was an important mention because it is important what we take in while we’re feeling how are our feeling and grief and we want to make sure that we’re feeding our hearts was with positive encouraging and not harmful or hurtful things. So be sure to go back and listen to that episode.
Sudden Unexplained Death of a Child
Now on to Episode 16 with Danielle Duffy who lost her infant son very suddenly an unexplained way SUDC, which is sudden in unexplained death of a child SUDC. And I’d never heard of it until my episode with Danielle and I cannot even imagine. I just absolutely cannot even imagine in Danielle’s case to not know can’t imagine that it has to be very heart wrenching, she really embodied joy in her episode. And I feel like she really gives that side of herself in her work with the mission mama podcast that she started as a result of all that she’s experienced in life, she talked a lot about gratitude. And her quote that I jotted down was we are not meant to live this life alone. And isn’t that the truth, if you want to learn more about SUDC again, that website was sucd.org. I just wanted to mention that before I forget, but we talked about connecting with others who had lost a child was very important in her healing process.
Because, again, to find I mean, in Grievers appreciate finding someone who shares in a similar loss. And what I have found to with groups, sometimes is that and in society, in general, there’s this knee jerk reaction to compare loss. I lost my both my parents in a car accident, for example, versus I never knew my parents, for whatever reason, maybe they put me up for adoption, or, you know, I’m just explaining, there’s like, there’s so many stories of grief out there, you guys, and none are the same. No two stories are ever the same. And there’s really hurtful and harmful things that come about when we start to compare losses. But I do understand the desire and the connection that one can feel when you connect with others who have had or experienced a similar loss. And she says to, just allow yourself to feel and she allowed herself to feel. And I think that’s so important in grief, too. I think it’s part of the reason to why perhaps I suffered for as long as I did, because I learned to stuff, my feelings and stuff, my emotions, to not share how I was feeling because it wasn’t safe, it wasn’t welcomed. And how we learn as little children is how we behave as adults. Let me repeat that, how we learn as children is how we behave as adults.
What Growing Up Means
And it’s no different with grief, my friends, and she shared is also about releasing expectations with a grieving spouse and others. And it’s a big one you guys, because I especially with spouses, we have a tendency to get married before any tragedy strikes or anything. You have all these high hopes and expectations for a beautiful life and wonderful things to come and sharing experiences and all the things that marriage brings us in our lives. And we aren’t prepared for when things don’t go as planned or for when things start to change, or the person maybe develops habits or behaviors that they didn’t really share in the beginning or express or anything like that. And it’s no different with emotions, maybe people start to exhibit different emotions, because we all go through different phases and stages of life too. So who you were at 17 is not who you are going to be at 27 or 47. Or vice versa, you know, as the years go on, I mean, that’s what adulting is. That’s what growing up means. I think we never end growing up. I don’t think you turn 18. And while you’re grown up, you’re an adult. I mean, yeah, legally, you’re an adult, but I don’t know that we arrive at our best selves at any certain particular age.
And so it’s always this striving to be our best selves, and to become our best selves. And it can get tricky when there’s different personalities, and there’s other people involved and, and when tragedy in particular strikes, and when grief enters the room, we then go too deep into that, but men grieve just as women do, maybe not in the same ways, but they grieve and I’m a female and I stuffed my emotions. And there are many males who stuff their emotions. So I don’t think necessarily that it’s about gender. I think I even touched on this on a previous episode that I just feel like there are typical ways and themes into how people deal with grief. And we do cover a lot of this in grief recovery work. It’s not gender based. And we all do the similar same things. Whether you are male or female, or 27 or 47. We all exhibit and tend to resort to the same or similar behaviors. We call them STERBS Short term energy relieving behaviors where either it’s we pour ourselves into work, become workaholics, start drinking, or returning to shopping or gambling, anger is a big one. And grief manifests in our bodies quite similarly, as well for many of us, and that, again, is not gender specific.
My point in saying this is that how men and women grieve it’s not even about gender, it really is just depends on how they were taught. And that’s men and women. We take those lessons with us. And I just really, I hope you go back and listen to Danielle’s episode, because if you are needing some joy in your life, or need some tools and tips that she provided in that episode, in the show notes, they’re listed there as well. I feel like any parent who can who goes through a loss of a child who was able to find joy in the way that she has, there’s someone to listen to, they are someone to look up to for hope, and I just really appreciated her sharing her story with all of you on that episode.
P.S. If you found this episode helpful, I would love for you to go to Apple podcasts leave a review particularly five star if you found this helpful. And I really would love to know what you have found most helpful. Do you love the interviews? Do you prefer the solo episodes please share I would love to know. Remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life much love.
Educational, Energy, Grief Tips, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Reiki, Resources |
The Conflict of Self-Sacrifice and Being a Helper
As a helper, boundaries for yourself and others are important to prevent burnout. Without boundaries, knowing when to say “no,” or recognizing when enough is enough, you may find yourself filled with resentment, anger, bitterness, self-criticism, maybe even self-loathing if you are your own worst critic. You may find yourself saying things to yourself that you would never speak out loud to another person. Helpers are often the ones who put on an “I’ve got this” face and yet, on the inside, are crumbling under pressure.
Caregivers/Caretakers are especially prone to burnout. Becoming the one who everyone relies on and goes to for physical, emotional, or financial support can fill the heart with so much joy and purpose, or it can fill the helping heart with dread and the soul with angst.
Challenging Beliefs
One recommendation I have for preventing burnout as a helper is to evaluate your beliefs about helping. When I talk about helpers, I want to clarify that I refer to those whose natural inclination is to help, almost like a compulsion. Natural helpers can’t help but help. I’m not referring to those who help because they feel pressured to do so or are motivated to help because they gain something in return. I think there’s a difference, which is why it’s important to make the distinction.
Anyway, in your childhood, what leads you to believe that helping beyond your physical, emotional, or financial means is how you get your worth?
- Were you raised to believe that only those who help to the point of self-sacrifice are rewarded?
- Do you believe that, as a helper, only you can do what needs to be done? Were you put in roles where you frequently had to step up and take the reigns because, if you didn’t, the project, experience, job, the family would fall apart?
- How much of this belief are you and you alone putting on your shoulders?
- Are these high expectations you have for yourself or others have for you?
Imagine the grief you may be causing yourself not addressing this or allowing yourself to observe how you respond to others when you feel called to help! Others are not responsible for your self-sacrificing ways. The bitterness or resentment you feel is due to a lack of boundaries, self-care, and self-worth.
I have been on the receiving end of helper-burnout. As a Reiki practitioner, grief specialist, and end-of-life doula, it is up to me to maintain boundaries as a means to protect or regain my physical and emotional energy.
Addressing the Conflicting Feelings
If you address your physical and emotional needs as a helper, you will no longer have conflicting feelings about being a helper. Those feelings are an indicator that something is off, not working, or needs to change.
How to address these conflicting feelings goes back to creating and maintaining boundaries. But, if you’re not being an observer of what is happening emotionally when you find yourself in challenging situations, you won’t know where boundaries are needed.
Start with what pisses you off. What is happening when you find yourself wound up with emotion, maybe even fired up (not in a good way)?
- What is it about the situation that fills you with anger?
- When, in your childhood, did you find yourself needing to be responsible for helping others to feel better (physically or emotionally)?
- How have you put yourself second to the needs of others?
- In what ways could you balance out the desire to help and meet your own needs?
As a child, I had a lot of responsibility. It wasn’t something I chose, it was just how things were and the cards I was dealt. No experience is wasted; therefore, I can appreciate the lessons I gained during those years. However, those years also shaped my beliefs about what it looks like to be a helper, and it was at the expense of my own heart and in conflict with what my soul wanted.
We can even do this to the extent of choosing a profession that our parents wanted. I have come across this in my work with others. People go into a profession that isn’t at all aligned with their heart and soul simply to make their parents happy or proud. When really, either it’s a projection of the parents and their unmet hopes, dreams, and expectations they had for themselves, or it’s an inner-wound that leads the person to believe that, again, their self-worth comes from the approval of others.
When we put our desire for freedom, which includes emotional freedom, on the backburner, we put ourselves in shackles to the needs and desires of others. We learn that personal needs come last, lose our voice in speaking up for ourselves, and learn that our self-worth hinges on the approval of others (how much we helped them). This approval-seeking, therefore, becomes a learned behavior.
The conflicting feelings you feel right now about being a helper is grief, my friend. It’s the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations you had for yourself, your relationship with others, and your life. It’s wishing things would be, could be, or would’ve or could’ve been – different, better, or more.
Are you feeling conflicted about your strong desire to help and yet meet your needs?
Would you like me to dig more into the energetics of this? Well, you’re in luck! Today I launched a quiz that will help you learn your energy type! From it, you will learn what energizes and drains your energy, blind spots of your energy type, and what to do to turn things around or maintain (if you’re not feeling energetically challenged).
CLICK HERE TO LEARN YOUR ENERGY TYPE TODAY IN UNDER 2 MINUTES!
UPLEVEL YOUR HELPER ENERGY; YOUR HEART WILL THANK YOU!
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Lindsay Joy Taylor: A Mother-Connection Lost in Childhood
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Lindsay’s mother was murdered when she was a toddler. Being the youngest of three children, she speaks to her experience of what it was like growing up without her mom, and how she found a way to honor her mother’s memory.
Lindsay found the joy in her middle name again, with the birth of her business, The Joyful Jewelry Box, and as a Grief Advocate.
Be a fly on the wall of a conversation that covers family grief, the impact child loss had on Lindsay, and how she’s learned to move forward throughout her life.
Childhood grief is a unique club. When you grow up with sorrow, it becomes familiar – so much so, you’re not sure what life is like without it. Lindsay and I share that truth. Lindsay shares how her experience growing up with grief has shaped the decisions she’s made throughout her life.
Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Lindsay:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:00
Welcome to grieving voices. Today I’m introducing Lindsay Joy Taylor on the podcast. And she is the grief advocate and owner of the joyful jewelry box. Thank you so much for being here.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 0:17
Thank you for having me, Victoria, I appreciate it.
Victoria Volk 0:20
I’ve been following Lindsay for a while on Instagram and in the grief community, and I’ve just really enjoyed kind of getting to know you from afar through your Instagram, and I think it’s just a really a grief community would you agree is it’s it’s a different, it’s a different environment. It’s so supportive. And you agree,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 0:47
I definitely agree. And what’s been really incredible, is that, and you’ll probably hear throughout my interview, but I didn’t necessarily start my work in the green space. But now I’m going on six and a half years, and, and in the beginning, it was sparse. You know, certainly I think social media and online sharing has grown a lot in the last few years. But it was really sparse in the beginning. And now it’s been incredible to see all of the greatest accounts and advocacy and experts that have come out of this, it’s just, I don’t know that I expected that or that I anticipated that. And I really, you hit it on my head in the sense that it’s automatically a different community. It’s automatically sort of this, like, deep sensitivity and connection. And, you know, I’m not somebody who loves smallpox so much. And it’s really kind of neat to just jump right in, and we can just go to those places that really, you know, speak to our lives. So I definitely agree it’s, it’s different than the online world in general. But it’s also different than even what it was for me in the beginning, you know, so that’s been really neat to see.
Victoria Volk 1:50
I agree. And a lot of the deep conversations that I’ve had throughout my life have been with people who have gone through deeply, troublesome, challenging times. And I think COVID to actually has helped to highlight grief overall, and really bring the conversation to the forefront. And so thank you for your advocacy. And for what you do. Yeah, and actually, let’s start there, how did the jewel, the joyful jewelry box, come about?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 2:24
You know, it’s really kind of a special story to me, because it’s sort of unfolded very organically. And yet, when I tell the story and look back on it, it’s just sort of feels like this was the way the whole time. So you know, my relationship to Greece is very intimate and lifelong, that my mother was murdered when I was an infant. And so I’ve grown up really having a deep understanding of grief, and then also feeling very outside of it, really not understanding all the ways that it’s impacted my life, because it’s quite literally infused with my life. And so I think that contributed a lot to me and my temperament and who I am and what I believe in general. So I had always wanted to be in the helping services in some way, shape, or form. It’s kind of funny, I was a teenager, I used to joke that I wanted to be the next Dr. Laura, she would I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, but she was a big time radios at the time, and really popular and they’re really controversial. And like that idea of having these hard, honest conversations, not so much that she told everybody how to how to live their life, or to deal with their problems. But I really appreciated that that dialogue, for people to be honest, right. And so in some way, shape or form, I always knew that I wanted to work with people to help them in some way, shape, or form. But I don’t know that I knew what that would look like. So I went to school for communications in psychology. And the short version is I ended up working in mental health, right after school, and I loved it, I did a lot of internal services that helped provide support to the direct services departments. And it just was, it was built upon my strengths, but also really could see how it was giving back to the mental health community and really not only helping me but helping others. And unfortunately, the funding for that position went away. And so I was laid off, you know, it was very much sort of what we’re seeing happening now. There’s just not enough services out there and for funding for the services and you have very dedicated people who want to be able to provide this work and help these people. I’m not always available to do so. So I’m sort of forced into a season of how do I get creative? How do I be flexible and support my family? My husband and I had just bought our first home and we just moved and the dog had surgery and so it was kind of this how do I use it for this season and I had always had a hobby of making jewelry and I’d reconnected with another local jewelry designer and the short version is I opened an Etsy shop. But in the beginning it wasn’t necessarily grief related. It certainly wasn’t Memorial REM remembrance design. It was more of like I said, just how do I navigate this time right now. And once I kind of got my flooding back underneath me and realized I wanted to give back again, I really that that meaningful piece of just working with others, and really that humanitarian side of life, you know, is what gives me a lot of joy and fulfillment. And so I thought, How do I bridge all of these pieces together. And it kind of went back to my shop name in the beginning in the sense that the joyful jewelry boxes based upon my middle name before, before my mom died, obviously, she it was important to her that that being my middle name, to sort of represent the hard season that my family was going through at the time, and then also the deep joy that they felt when I was born. And so just not knowing her and not having a relationship with her, it’s always been important to me to pay homage to her in ways that I could. And so that was where the name came from. And I kind of went back to that route in terms of how do I take this meaningful piece of her life and everything I just told you and, and make it work. And I realized the jewelry was a significant piece of migrating process for my mom growing up without are used to play with her jewelry box all the time. And sift through it like it was a treasure box and just take all my favorite pieces, hide them here. And then I realized is a big comfort to me throughout my whole grief during but I didn’t even necessarily realize it. Right. And so it was so neat to sort of be here and be like,
It just felt very small circle in the way of how do I take all of these pieces of them now help other people infuse joy back into their life? How do I help them honor the loved ones that they miss so much? How do I help them keep their life and their memories alive. So it was one of those things that sort of unfolded over you know, the last five years or so, I don’t really know, I don’t really know how it would have ended up you know, it’s so funny because it didn’t recognize how it was happening at the time. And I think, you know, I think grief can be like that. And a lot of ways to in the beginning, it’s just sort of this horrific, all consuming pain, you really can’t imagine anything outside of it. You can’t imagine any joy, you can’t imagine bringing meaning to the deepest pain you’ve ever felt. And so it sort of feels like this, like a literal metaphor in terms of what the degrees journey can be for a lot of us,
Victoria Volk 7:30
You go through the different phases of life and your grief changes and with those phases to I think to your right, when you really start having kids and yeah,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 7:42
When I think to kind of going back to what I said before, you know, like my middle name, for example, it feels like a big part of my grieving process now. And it was something that I actually really resented for a long time. I didn’t feel like I was enjoying the person, I didn’t feel like I wanted to look on the bright side of things. I didn’t feel like this was my mission to carry out, so to speak, you know, that it was one season of life started to reveal itself to me so much. And yet here I am now still with all the pain and all the loneliness and growth and just all the things that happened over the years. But there’s this really fulfilling component of having that connection with this community of having this touchstone of built a really beautiful place that didn’t exist when I needed it. And that just Yeah, I don’t know, sort of hard to put into words. I’ll chemical process there, so to speak, you know,
Victoria Volk 8:37
It’s a purpose. Yeah, it’s a purpose for the pain. And I can relate to that. I think we often end when we are deep in it. You can’t see the other side, you can’t see what’s possible. You can’t see possibility you don’t don’t look for the open doors, you don’t really see your own potential, either. I think that kind of gets hidden math,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 8:59
Or, do we even want it? You know, I don’t want to speak for all Grievers. Certainly we all have our own process. But in the work that I’ve done and with a lot of the Grievers that I’ve worked with, that desire goes away for a while takes a while for kind of all those pieces that I talked about, I mean, you know, and that’s kind of the biggest piece of my story really, is that, you know, I’m a 37 year old woman, and I mom’s been dead for 36 years, and I still think of her every day, I still struggle every single day and wonder what life would be like with her, what life would be like to have a relationship with her. You know, and so that’s the biggest piece sort of to me in terms of this idea that it’s just always going to be there in some way shape or form and it will change shape, right it will have different seasons. But this idea that you just get over it or when does it get better, you know, just that hasn’t been my experience. And so that’s been the biggest testament for me is really trying to use my perspective of Time, but also, you know, the unique lack of relationship there to sort of articulate that. That doesn’t necessarily matter.
Victoria Volk 10:07
No, it was your mom did you have then someone that kind of stepped in and took that role for you, and was that support for you, as a child,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 10:18
definitely my sister, shortly after my father did remarry. And that wasn’t necessarily a positive relationship. Although I had to be pretty reliant on her. She’s around like a tutor for three or five, logistically speaking, right, I had to rely on her in some ways, but I have, I don’t have a lot of memories of her. And the ones that I do are really actually pretty traumatic, for she left a picture of my sister. So I’m the youngest of three, my brother was nine, my sister was seven, and I was one. So at that point, you know, the years have passed, my sister was about nine, and she really stepped in and became that integral, maternal role for me. Certainly, my father kept us all together and was the head of the family video and design business and was traumatized, quite honestly, and, and wasn’t, you know, wasn’t the primary caretakers. So there was a long, long, long time of just a lot of renegotiating those types of roles. And I don’t really know where it would be without my sister. You know, it’s pretty interesting. We’re, we’re very close. And we’re very independent. And so I don’t want to say that she became my mother, but she became a model for, for me in a lot of those ways. But she also taught me how to take care of myself, too. I think, you know, I think that that was a big delineation from what I see in a lot of other or hear about in other dynamics. There was never an expectation for my father, that now it’s your job to take care of your sister. She just was so selfless in that way to do that for me. So but I find that unique, I’m sort of being wordy in the way that Yes, she did step in for me, but I think she stepped in in ways and showed me how that we could take care of ourselves to, as opposed to here now I’m your mom. Does that make sense?
Victoria Volk 12:04
Well, and that was my experience to just, I was the youngest. I was eight, when my dad passed away. And, you know, within a couple of years, my mom remarried to and actually my sister left, and my brother was, you know, like, 1314. And so he was kind of doing his own thing. And so I kind of raised myself. Yeah. So you know, I think that for a lot of child Grievers, we do learn resiliency in that way, and how to be resourceful, and how to take care of ourselves. I think we’re kind of just, that’s a lifestyle, we don’t choose. But for me, I wouldn’t change it. I wouldn’t change. Of course, I would absolutely love to know, I would have been like to grow up with my father. But you know, what shapes us? It shapes who we are and how we are as parents, then as adults, too. It’s, you know, do you feel like I’m just curious, do you gravitate towards that? What you learn from that experience? Like, for me personally, like, I want my kids to be independent, I want them to learn how to take care of themselves, too. Because we don’t know what the future holds. And I’ve found that for myself, did you feel that? Have you found that to as a parent?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 13:22
I’m actually not a parent.
Victoria Volk 13:23
And oh, I’m sorry. No, it’s okay. Sorry
Lindsay Joy Taylor 13:27
No no problem. Um, no, I know, when I say families that technically that’s my husband and my dog.
Yeah, well, hey, that’s okay.
Family, there’s a family. But I do also understand it creates a different context. And I’m always like, how can I communicate that without saying, my husband or my daughter. But you know, I’ve been very involved in not helping to raise my nieces and nephews, by any means, have certainly witnessed that journey with my sister very, very, very much. Right. And I think you’re right in terms of there’s wanting them to be able to take care of themselves the way that you were able to, to be able to let go of, for lack of better term, to not have the fear that they wouldn’t be okay, if something would happen, right. And then I think there’s also and I can’t speak for you, I can only speak to what I’ve witnessed, but I think there’s also this line of also, Oh, my gosh, I want to protect you with every part of my being because I know what those things felt like, or I know what those things felt like for me, right? Like, again, we can’t always know for everybody, we’re very different, but you can relate to the depths of pain, that that took place in your life. And I imagine and I hear that it’s always really very a fine line in terms of how do I honor these really deep, critical resilient pieces of myself without willingly giving my child a basket of hell, you know? I that’s not really. I don’t mean that you know, derogatorily I think that when I look at my journey, I understand why anything can happen. My husband and I don’t plan to have kids, but we also very are open to his world decides we’re having children, we are a strong couple, we would be great parents, we will make it work, you know. But I’m still working out a lot of the stuff in my life. I don’t think it would prevent me from being a good parent, but they’re not struggles I want to have while I’m being a parent, you know, the amount of times I’ve heard in my life that I should have chosen to go feel the grief of not having a relationship with my mom is no way laughable. it’s laughable, really, and very much like, I appreciate that that experience is actually very true for a lot of people, let me put it that way. That That is very true for a lot of people. But I don’t believe that that needs to be the goal. That’s not going to be my goal to have children, right, my child, their only burden in life is to be children. Right? Not to be my Savior, not to be my hero not to be my healing tool. And so for me, personally, it’s just something that I’ve taken a lot of time to really dissect. And it’s just the decision I want to be 110% sure about, and I have never gotten there yet. And I think, because of everything I just told you, you know, that that I recognize that deep pain, and that doesn’t mean that I can’t overcome it, and do both. It’s that I, I want to want to do both. It’s a good way to put it.
Victoria Volk 16:28
Well, I didn’t expect the conversation to go this way. And I’m excited. And actually, I know, I’m glad because I think it is a very good point, I made this assumption that you had children just because to me, like you come off as a very nurturing you. And I mean, I just I get that vibe from you. And so, you know, slap me on the hand for making No, not at all. But I think it’s a wonderful point, though, that it’s like, I think we often like there’s so many people that maybe out there who’ve maybe had children to fill a gap to fill a void of something within them. And for me, I didn’t exactly plan to have children, either, it just happened for me, and, but they are like a mirror, they really do hold a mirror to everything that we’ve experienced. And they’ll bring up everything that you need to heal on yourself. Right? Not that they need to heal you, but show you what you need to heal. And entrepreneurship is like that, too, though. It’s, you know, like, you know, building your business, your Etsy store, I’m sure that brought up different it’s like a baby, you know, when you have a business, it’s like a baby and brings up a lot of, you know, you can have self worth issues that come up, you can have just so many things. Would you agree?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 17:54
Yes. And so there’s a few things I just want to say Don’t worry about it at all, I think that that’s actually not something that I communicate very clearly to my community, or not clearly, let me put it this way, I’ve wondered, I wonder if that’s a dialogue I should have. And, you know, I’ve often erred on you know, I have a lot of lost mothers in my community and, and I just don’t ever, it’s just not the focus of my work, per se. See how there’s places where I’m minimizing my story for the sake of other people, right. And so ultimately, I just don’t want you. But I also want to say to that, like nothing, and what I said was intended to be a criticism of the individuals and maybe that that was their goal. Right? I just know that that’s not right, for me, personally, and that’s another sort of big piece of my testimony in terms of like, honor what you know, to be true for your grieving process, right? Yeah, the most well intentioned people who are speaking from the depth of their experience of pain and so I just really wanted to clarify that didn’t mean that as a judgment and certainly and certainly don’t want to articulate that that’s a negative situation. I just know for me and who I know what I am, that’s not the best way to start a family. piggyback on that about the entrepreneurship piece. Absolutely true, which is funny because I would never have envisioned myself to be an entrepreneur but even more so and you can probably relate to this maybe. But having that that deep emotional connection right to our legacy or to our grades, like takes it to a whole nother level. And was the last week I can’t even keep track within the last couple weeks you know, Instagram has shut down my account and thankfully got restored and everything’s okay but in the beginning, it was very much like okay, so it’s an Instagram account, big deal social media. And yet on the other hand, this is like the legacy of my mom. This is the legacy of the journey that I’ve created. This is tools and resources and community and support. We’re all of these her carts and it just was devastating. Not another word to encapsulate, you know how I felt that day it was really just like it just Pierce’s you want to play, she didn’t think that it would. Because again, Business is business. And certainly it’s important, important, and it’s part of our livelihoods and all those things. But I think we’re also in a time of life where, you know, that hustle culture and trying to really compartmentalize the roles that it should have in our life. And so it was interesting to sort of have that kind of drop on my lap, and sort of figure out like, okay, okay,
Victoria Volk 20:36
what do I need to learn here?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 20:37
What do I need to learn? What does this mean for me? What does this mean about my grief? What does this mean about, you know, all of those things, and nothing really changed. It just was really this. It’s almost like, it becomes this sort of tangible, at least for me, in this particular instance, this tangible source of grief support, for lack of a better term or something. And anyway, yes, it’s very, very, very deep and layered, and you have so many parts of yourself as an entrepreneur in and of itself. But I think we have a unique added emotional quality.
Victoria Volk 21:14
For sure, absolutely. So growing up, I’m curious, too, if, you know, you had mentioned that your sister kind of stepped in and your dad was in the picture, but he had a business and, you know, we, you know, with having a business that takes a lot of your time. Did you receive any counseling or anything as you got older? Or, you know, what have you tried in the past? Or what has worked for you? I think that’s like three or four questions. And sorry,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 21:44
It’s all the same. And so growing up the The short answer is not really my understanding of right after my mom’s homicide, my family had done some trauma therapy sessions, I mean, a handful, I gather, again, I was an infant. So I can’t really articulate the impact that that had, and I don’t even although I’d like to write I’m sure that, you know, it still impacted me in the ways of how my family moved forward, and some things but I don’t have a lot of information about that. And then it was interesting when I was in elementary school, and I still don’t have a lot of information about this either. But I wound up on some of these radar. And I would get pulled out of classes to go do play therapy, I had good grades, I was well behaved. So it wasn’t like a, at least from my understanding that I was that I was struggling. It was, honestly, it feels like a blessing. There are vague memories, but they’re positive memories of being just in this tiny room with this play therapist. And there were some times a couple of other kids. And I don’t know, it just sort of laid the groundwork a little bit in terms of all of this, I think my understanding that there were layers to things or ways to be emotional without, I think it gave me a different understanding of how you could learn about yourself emotionally speaking, right? I think that, you know, back in the 80s, and 90s, it was always just very scary. And this idea that it would be all consuming and you just kind of don’t go there. And so it I don’t know it was a good model for me. And so then fast forward. When I was in college, I decided to start going to the call the counseling center on campus. Like I said, My sister was such a good model for me in that way. And that was something she had done when she was in college and it was a positive experience for her and so in French is following in her footsteps. And that was actually a pivotal experience, but it was really negative. Unfortunately, what I know now of course, after being part of my healthcare system, and after earning my degree and whatnot, it was short term counseling model and I understand the limitations of that now but ultimately, you know, I’m 20 years old, if I had other 20 years old, I walk in there, I sort of explained the very loose situation of, you know, my family history and the reason that I felt like it was time was my I just sort of felt like grief was seeping out of me, right? Like none of my emotional responses. I couldn’t regulate myself nothing matched up with what was really happening. And so that was sort of the catalyst and so as I explained all this to her, she was nice, not even warm or comforting. I don’t even she was very Matter of fact, basically said, you’re dealing with a lot of trauma, we can’t help you with the amount of time that we have here. So here’s the list and good luck. And I was very much like I have the resources to start in all these other places maybe I would have right and I understand now again, but she didn’t even finish the session with me. It’s like okay, well, let’s create some support in the 60 minutes that we have. When can we call some of these people to keep some of these people together? What do we do with these resources don’t work out for you or even Are you lose? Are you suicidal? You know what I mean? Like we didn’t go over any of that. So that was heartbreaking for me, and why knocked out feeling really kind of broken, right? And my whole life like running and achieving and kind of proving that I was this accomplished, capable, resilient person. And then somebody basically said, Nope, not really. And so that put me off for a couple years. And by the grace of God, everything was okay. You know, there’s so many people, but that’s not necessarily the case. And I got another referral through a coworker. And I think I just did explained everything that I just told you. And
I just felt like a trusted situation to finally try again. And that actually was a really positive experience. So I went to that therapist for probably three years. And we did a lot of relational and a Mago work. Really this idea that right, that our romantic partners, we choose them to help them heal these unhealed parts of our childhood self. And that was actually really beneficial. But I don’t know that that was the right place to start is my point in saying all of that, because if you’re dealing with trauma, and you don’t feel safe in relationships, you know what I mean? So, but I didn’t know that the reason I’m articulating all of this is how much I sort of thought I knew in terms of what the resources are, or the avenues to take, or you just go see a therapist, right. And certain things, certainly things have changed a lot in the last 10 or 15 years, tremendously speaking in regards to trauma and whatnot, but she was a safe place. But I still don’t know that that’s where my healing began, if you will, and then fast forward a few more years. And I started working with a trauma informed therapist about six years ago. And I still have lots of challenges that I work on every day. But it’s been pretty incredible to sort of just understand everything that I was dealing with. Now, from a different perspective, I think that I always knew that was tragic, the way that my mom died and when she died, but I don’t think that I realized how traumatized I was, I don’t think I realized these really clear ways in which the aftermath really created even more challenges, even more challenges than already growing up without, you know, my primary caretaker. But more than anything, you know, because again, you can go on and on about all the tips and tricks in this mat. And it won’t always apply to everybody. But the biggest thing for me that really applied and kind of walking through this journey was really looking at everything that I’ve learned or that I was told or that I intuited from the world growing up about grief and loss. And it really just decided to save matters, this doesn’t apply to me, keep trying to force myself into these boxes into these stages and these understandings of what things should be like or look like or feel like and it just was a bunch of junk. Right. And so that was the biggest tool that it gave me was to help me to trust myself, and trust my own feelings and my own opinions about things. And to know that I could honor my grief on my own whether or not people agree with it, or depending on no matter what they think about over or whatnot. And so that’s been the biggest, I think role that it has supported for me is constantly providing that mirror of everything I’ve just said, you know, that we can choose our own way. And doing that has been, I don’t want to say it’s been the most healing, you know, I don’t have an interesting perspective about healing. And I know that my situation is particularly complex, but but it gave me the freedom to sort of understand how I could get there. If that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 28:21
Yeah, and, you know, we’re all wired differently to and we’re going to take in information differently and processes differently, and, and at some points in some stages and phases, we’ll be ready for it. And other times we won’t and I think we also too, tend to, we question ourselves a lot when we feel like we’re kind of crazy, you know, I felt crazy. And you really can’t, how do you tap into your intuition? How do you tap into your heart when you’re stuck in your head. And you know, in grief recovery, we say to you can’t heal the heart with the head. And the only way is to get connected within and to know, really to be led to what you need and, and follow through on that. And like you said, create your own path and it’s gonna look like a roller coaster, it might look like, you know, it’s not going to look the same for everybody else. We don’t come to that place the same way.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 29:23
No, and I like what you said about that body connection right? For me that was that’s been a huge piece, but I don’t know that I believe that we can heal without the body, right? Like if you think about your emotions and your feelings, you experience them physically, right? This Mind Body connection is so interwoven and so intertwined. And yet, for me personally, because my mom died during such a crucial developmental stage for me, and like literally, you cannot survive without other humans. You know what I mean? In a lot of ways. I think that I intuited the level of support that was available, and I don’t think there was very much you know, and so I didn’t act out I just shut down. You know, I’ve asked that I have sleep problems that I cried, did I stop eating? Did I say anything, right? And everybody’s memory is very vague. Because again, time and just grief and trauma and all those things. But I think that I really cut myself off from that piece of knowing that intuitive sort of way to connect with that deep, that deep anguish, right, and it feels or sounds terrific, like, Who wants to go connect with that wants to take the time to create the space to feel that in your body, right, but otherwise, it just lives there. You know. And so that’s been a big piece of being trauma informed when I say trauma informed therapist, certainly not only that, she has an understanding about, you know, what trauma is and how it plays out in our lives and all of those things, but also really how the way to heal trauma is through the body, you can’t do it without it, right. And so she’s really created that face to face for me to be able to feel those horrible sensations that I had to feel alone as a baby, to really give space, that pre verbal experience, right. And I don’t, this is sort of an interesting thing to say, because not everybody deals with their grief by talking about it. I think I deal with life by talking about everything sort of as a result, we I wasn’t even talking about the time, I literally did not have the capacity to communicate what was going on. Right. And so it just I appreciate you really making that point about the body because it’s so easy to think that it’s such a mental process, right? than emotional processes in our head. We’re crazy, where we were stuck, we’re insert whatever the world has told us, it’s a crucial piece that I don’t think very many of us realize, and in a way that as much as I sort of, even as I’m talking to you I’m like, and I don’t even know if I am right, you know, I talk about trauma. And I talk about the body based work that I do, but I don’t know that I’ve ever articulated or, or recognize just how in our roles in the grieving process is with the body, you know, and how often we’re trying to shortchange that.
Victoria Volk 32:02
I think, too, if you’ve had a traumatic experience with your body, like I have I disassociated myself from my body as well. And I didn’t care about my body, I didn’t take care of my body. I didn’t realize the body mind body connection until I actually went through grief recovery. I say this on every episode, because I am so passionate about it. But I did not make that connection to the mind and body until I did that heart work until I really allowed myself to go there. Yeah, and it was life changing. For me, I firmly believe you cannot heal the heart with the head. It’s you know, we just stuck up there some times.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 32:48
You know, I heard another quote the other day that reminds me that a little bit something about can’t feel when you’re talking or something like that. And I’m like, that makes a lot he right, you know, sort of referencing what I said like I talk a million miles a minute I will ever feels right in line with that. No, until I think you made a really good point in the sense of like, there’s this idea that like you won’t be able to come back from it, right? Whereas the idea is that you’re creating this trusting relationship where your body shows, but I can hold this. But we are strong enough to do this, right. But you’re over there in the corner saying, but I can do it with only three legs when the fourth leg is over here. Right? I appreciate you making that point. And I know that we’re still we’re still unraveling what we know and research and all that. But I think that that’s a crucial piece in terms of sort of the next piece of bridging those gaps, too, because I think too, not to take over the whole different conversation really but you know, I read a book recently called before and after last by Lisa Shulman. And it was basically like, what happens to your brain in grief. Right? And I really appreciated the context in there in terms of like, she was talking about the overlap of grief and trauma, right? Not all grief is traumatic, and not all trauma is grief. But ultimately, like when you really put them side by side, the the the number of people that are in both pools, right, and we’re constantly separating them. So I just think that that’s a big piece in terms of moving forward, that can articulate a lot of things. Maybe we weren’t looking at sort of what you were saying you didn’t understand the mind body connection, or you didn’t quite understand that trauma, that trauma, that traumatic piece, right. And so I just think that we have a lot of ability to change the landscape a bit a little bit by joining them together.
Victoria Volk 34:39
Yes, no, I would agree.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 34:41
Pointing out how common there we go. That’s what I was trying to say.
Victoria Volk 34:46
What is one thing that you would like to get across today about your grief?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 34:52
is one big piece I already said you know, certainly that that is lifelong, right? This idea that That I could be a 37 year old woman still grieving for somebody that I don’t know. I think it speaks volumes, right. And again, I think that on one level people look at and say, Well, of course you lost your mom, it was so tragic. It was so dramatic. And yet, I think there’s enough examples out there in the world where people don’t really take that to heart. For me personally, but for individuals like us not playing out right now, just turning on the news, you know, to really just trying to articulate right, there really is no timeline, there is no timeframe, there are no five stages. None of them.
Victoria Volk 35:33
Thank you. Amen.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 35:36
Personally, that if you happen to be someone, and your experience has been that way, praise the Lord, I’m so glad for you. Because it’s just a really confusing, extra added layer of anger and just frustration because you feel so alone, and so misunderstood. And all the things that are out there were most of them up until this point, really just were very unrealistic, you know, but the other piece of that maybe this is an undertone of that. But as much as I work with adults, I don’t work with children, I don’t feel that that’s necessarily my strength. And yet my experience, I feel like, it’s crucial for me to articulate that with children don’t know or don’t remember them. It can still impact them, let me use that word instead, right, but this idea that, that I was so strong, that I got such good grades and just insert all the junk that you know, people think is a replacement for a parent. And I bought into that that was an identity that, you know, really carried me through and I’m wondering, I’m grateful, you know, I needed something to carry me through. And yet, then I grew up and I was like, Well, shit, nobody has even any clue that I’m struggling so much. And I don’t even understand why I’m struggling so much, because I’ve never talked about it. Right? Yes, of course, it was tragic, but only significant, right? And so it was this constant rationalization of my experience against the world. And so it’s important to me to say, just, you know, don’t assume that your child is going to be traumatized, because they go through a hard thing. Absolutely not. Children are so strong and so resilient, but we get to provide the tools and the environment and the resources for them to be able to communicate, or to feel safe, to be honest, if we ask what they’re struggling with, you know, and to not minimize that, and to not give them some childlike answer and adorn until it comes up again. You know, that’s a big piece for me in terms of really just understanding that grief impacts children too. And it’s not the same as adults. And I can’t even necessarily articulate how it will impact your child. But I just want people to be aware of the fact that providing that support is one of the most crucial parts of helping them heal.
Victoria Volk 37:47
And what I’ve learned to like, even through grief recovery, we have the program helping children with Loss Program, yes, bar none, like going to the program has made me a better parent, just to, because if I can’t tell the emotional truth about myself, how can I expect my child to come to me exactly how the emotional truth about themselves? And so it really is just to have this dialogue and conversation. You know, it’s like some I’ve seen arguments of people online where someone takes their child to a funeral. And people are just outraged. Like, why would you do that? Why would you let them see the body in like, well, because just because you’re uncomfortable with having that conversation, you know, and I saw my dad in his casket, no one talked to me about it, there was no conversation, like to piggyback on what you’d said, just because cha children, like, children bounce back, I hear that all the time, oh, they’ll bounce, they’ll bounce back. Those children grow up to be adults, that is never addressed, it will rear its ugly head at some way, some fab absolutely.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 38:57
You know, and certainly, and I’ve seen that in my work, you know, in the ways that, you know, my family is we all grieve very differently. I would say I’m definitely one who carries the most out loud, but they are tolerant of it, and they’re accepting of it. And they don’t tell me to do anything different with that. And I really appreciate and respect that because they didn’t sign up to have, you know, their, their deepest pain to be so public. And but it’s been really incredible to see sort of the, the ways that it’s impacted my family that I didn’t even necessarily expect some of the conversations that I’ve had with my dad, I can just recognize that I’m helping them process this too, right? That doesn’t mean I’m so far along. Hey, I’m right here with you. Right, but it’s been really interesting and helpful. To be able to see that piece come back instead of feeling like Oh, am I crossing the boundaries, I don’t want to violate anybody, you know, and I honor that, but I also need to honor my own experience, and I’m tired of living the secret, you know, and so it’s really trying to honor both of those, but to see the ways that my being public about it or outspoken about it has helped them see things in a different way. Or even if it hasn’t helped me understand them on a deeper level than an unexpected blessing, I guess
Victoria Volk 40:11
And that brings up a good point, too. And that verse, I think, oftentimes we tend to sweep the hard stuff under the rug. And especially where I live the German heritage, you know, people come in said, the people that came and settled here, it was dead of winter. It’s harsh. It’s, I mean, that’s a that’s a special breed of people. You know, they’re real. Yeah. Pretty hard and determined, and you know, and so it’s it is this German, tough exterior culture. And we don’t talk about it, we don’t need that we’re fine. It’s really difficult for people grow up like that, to ask for help to seek out support to look for community of like minded or people that are a little, maybe a little further than they are for guidance or support. Yeah, I just wanted to highlight that point that you had brought up that supports huge,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 41:12
and you know, that it can go both ways. I think it’s sort of an interesting concept, right? Because, and I can’t speak for you, but like as the children, right, it’s the children who are looking to everybody else.
Victoria Volk 41:24
Well, we resort to what we know. And we look to the adults to emulate Well, okay, well, that’s how we deal with grief. Okay, I guess I’m not going to talk about it either. You know, I guess I’m fine. Several myths of grief that we talk about in grief recovery, and one of them is, you know, grieve alone. That’s what I did, you know, stuff, stuff, stuff. And then there are some kids too, like we were talking about the differences, some kids will lash out, some kids will exhibit different behaviors, depending on what’s been emulated for them. Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 41:58
More than anything, I just want to let people know that for me, in my community, what I believe is that you have the right to grieve your own way, right? There is no right or wrong way to grieve. There’s no timeline to it. But what happened wasn’t your fault. The biggest process, or the biggest change for me in my process was giving myself that permission to change what I think, right. And so I really just encourage your audience to really think about when it comes to their primary struggles, right? There’s these little pennants that are the piece that they struggle most with, if you will, sort of what I was just saying, right, I should be over this right by now I should get over this or all of those things, I just encourage you to sort of ask yourself, where those ideas came from. You feel like they’re serving you and your own process. Right? I feel like two things sort of are happening, we’re all really unprepared. We get thrown into this situation, this universal human situation. And we don’t know what to do, because nobody’s talking about it. So we’re already sort of at a deficit, for lack of a better term. I don’t like that term. But we’re unprepared not that you can prepare for it. But we’re unprepared in the way that everything we’ve been told is generally not true. Or there are very strong chances that it won’t look that way for you, right? And so I really want people to have the flexibility to be able to say, Where did I learn this? Who benefits for me hearing this? Does this feel right in my gut does this serve me, and if it does, then you know, do your thing. But if it doesn’t, then I just really, you have the right to grieve your own way to honor your own process to do it differently. And that doesn’t mean that you’re doing it wrong. That doesn’t mean you’re dishonouring anybody that doesn’t mean that you’re betraying anybody, it just really is a matter of making sure that you’re not grieving the way that you were prescribed grief
Victoria Volk 43:57
I like that prescribed. Now, because I think society puts on this prescription, right, yeah, collectively, we all have these beliefs. And there are some universal beliefs. You know, Time heals all wounds we all know that line, you know, so like you said, it’s, yeah, challenge what your own beliefs about what you feel about grief and what you’ve been taught about grief. For sure
Lindsay Joy Taylor 44:07
And just make sure that they’re yours. Right? Just make sure they’re yours. Or not even yours, but the ones that have been passed on to you feel like that they’re serving you right and there’s an answer into this something my serapis asked me all the time to sort of because I often feel like well how do I really know you know, there’s so much as like, you know, I think a lot of what we talked about there’s this sort of disconnect in and of itself, but it’s also can be overwhelming, like you don’t know until you go through it. Right, more about really just recognizing that what works for you what works for other people. It just doesn’t, but you’re also not going fairly good to know that right off the bat, too, right. And so there’s some trial and error there in terms of figuring out what your journey is, and how you can infuse pieces that did speak to you. And my therapist, she will often say, you know, when we’re trying to figure out if something feels good, or expansive, or healthy or productive, we’re fulfilling insert whatever word you want to use for you. It’s more of like, does that feel expansive in your heart, you know, and that doesn’t necessarily mean that sadness is going to fill you up with joy. But again, it’s sort of tapping into those, those sensations in your body, right, the things that are right for you, you’re going to feel expansive, you’re going to feel open, you’re going to feel like oh, I kind of feel like I can breathe right there. I don’t feel relieved, per se, but I feel a shift, right? Whereas the things that are not right for you, you’re instantly going to clench up, you’re going to shut down, you’re going to feel rigid, you’re going to feel resistant, right. And so those can sort of be those intuitive nudges in terms of I don’t really know what I feel or what feels good, or what’s helpful or not. And those are kind of the the sensations that you can follow to get more clarity there.
Victoria Volk 46:05
There’s two points, I just think two things that came to my mind. Well, one, I think, too, it’s having an open mind, like just being open to whatever may come your way that if it piques your interest, there’s a reason. Yeah, you know, if and follow that curiosity of what may be helped, you know, because it could be the thing that unlocks everything that changes your life. That’s what happened for me. But the other thing too, is I coming from an energy standpoint as a Reiki Master and I was not even remotely like, I’d never even experienced Reiki before I became certified in it. Oh, really? Yeah, I just I was led to it. I had, I was curious about it. And it wasn’t until I like did the inner work. But there’s one thing that people could do stand up straight and tall and you put your hands on your chest and you can said you can do the sitting too I suppose but you close your eyes and you ask yourself the question whatever it is that you’re trying to discern, you know, like, should I go to this workshop? Is this workshop good for me? or you know whatever it is? Yeah, and if you feel yourself kind of leaning forward like a good that’s like a good thing but if you find yourself going back like leaning back like your body just as being pulled backwards that’s like a contracting that’s that just kind of right is like because our bodies always speak to us always. And I that’s the thing too like that’s I’ve really tapped into the body energy aspect of my own healing and have learned so much about that mind body connection because we are energy we are made up of energy our feelings emotions, our thoughts have energy behind them and our body knows our body knows so just do that you know try that our
Lindsay Joy Taylor 48:17
our body’s energy too right level painter oh wow that’s
Victoria Volk 48:22
the cellular level like every we are made up of cells and cells our energy learning so much.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 48:31
Yeah, definitely. I love seeing your face light up with the Reiki I’ve had it done and I actually have an invitation to go be certified in that recently and I decided not to only because I still am feeling like I for me Does that make sense? In terms of like I’ve noticed I’m always in this isn’t a bad thing by any means. But I always go like serve others in ways of like serving myself and I was like but that’s actually an area where I just want to be served. Does that make sense?
Victoria Volk 49:04
Oh, Reiki serves and that’s it. Oh my gosh. It is a gift that will keep on giving to yourself
Lindsay Joy Taylor 49:13
Just moving here because I feel this isn’t even necessarily anything I talked about per se but you know attachment trauma I have attachment trauma obviously from losing my mom at such a pivotal time and not having really safe and consistent caretaking after that and so I get really nervous that like when I how do I do this? I’m scared that I won’t be able to hold my boundaries. And that was a big piece of what I was doing counseling work. I felt like I like had the whole world was on my shoulders. And so that was that was sort of where I was able to say well I’m and I’m much more of an advocate as opposed to like therapists and you know, that boundary really serves me in terms of what My responsibility and kind of all that, but there’s certainly a fear with the Reiki that I’m nervous that like all something on will never get any sense.
Victoria Volk 50:10
Yeah, and you know what if you just do Reiki level one and two, you can give Reiki to yourself. Just think of it, it’s for yourself and that’s why I did it. That is why I did was for myself didn’t know you could do that to yourself and I went on to the next level, what’s up?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 50:30
I didn’t know that you could do Reiki on yourself, I guess I how does that work?
Victoria Volk 50:36
We will have to have another conversation.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 50:40
Right? I’m just referring to the experiences I’ve had.
Victoria Volk 50:44
No, it’s not just for really, I went to get certified for me. And but it’s really just, it’s really, I’ve gotten so much back from it, and helping other people too with rate, you know, giving, giving Reiki and things like that. But I just it’s opened up like I went for Reiki Master and like in a few weeks, I’m doing my Corona. It’s like the next level up. And that’s the next level after that is licensed and there’s only like 30 licensed as UI Reiki masters.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 51:16
Congratulations. That’s really exciting.
Victoria Volk 51:19
It is exciting. So I’m excited for that. But yeah, it’s, um, we’ll just have to have another conversation about that. But we will do if the universe keeps hitting you on the head and showing up for you. Reiki, reiki, reiki, that’s what was happening for me. Like I kept hearing about it. I’ve seen it. And I had never experienced it, like I said, and I just thought, What is this Reiki business? You know? And so
Lindsay Joy Taylor 51:45
yeah, pretty magical. I mean, the experience that I have had was very magical. But like I said, I felt very, like, you know, you were the guide. I was just the receptacle or something. And I’m glad we got onto this little bit.
Victoria Volk 51:59
Yeah, well, like energy, grief. It’s all connected. all connected. So where can people find you? If they want to connect with you?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 52:10
Absolutely. So my shop is the joyfuljewelry box.com and you can connect with me there. Normally I start with my social media. But since that got a little weird lately, you can always find me in my shop on Instagram, I am at the joyful jewelry box. And or if you just want to email me if there’s any questions you had or this conversation spoke to you, you can always email me at the [email protected]
Victoria Volk 52:37
Thank you so much for being here. This was such a different conversation, in a good way. I’m glad it went where it went, I think the message that you needed to get across I, I felt it, I hope my audience does as well.
Lindsay Joy Taylor 52:53
Thank you, Victoria, I appreciate you reaching out and just anybody in your audience, you’re welcome to come to my community and not as a replacement by any means. It’s not what I meant, but I just love meeting anybody who finds me through other grief communities. It’s just really cool to see how we can all learn each other and really, you know, create the connections from our stories, you know, like I said, from being able to really just start from a place of knowing who people are, or at least some of the most important parts of who we are. So I really love when people come over and share their story with me or share why my story spoke to them or whatnot. So love to meet anybody.
Victoria Volk 53:30
Well, I think too, it’s part of the mission of mine reason for starting this podcast was to talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather. Exactly. And so whether it’s my account your account, another grieving account, grief account, it doesn’t matter. It’s we’re talking about it. And that’s that’s the goal is to normalize it, right?
Lindsay Joy Taylor 53:50
Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you for what you’re doing to normalize it and I was poking around on your website today and it’s just it’s cool to see everything that you’re doing right I love that you’re providing one on one support, I love that you’re providing online support, I just it was neat to see all the different offerings that you have and I think that people can get scared of course, freaking scary woman but I think that they get scared that you know, there are only so many options and it’s just not going to work for them and ultimately the point is is just like you said, keep your mind open. This is such a unique and nuanced process like nothing can ever really be captured in one of these conversations or in one Instagram posts etc. And so I just encourage you to seek out those safe communities to be able to have these conversations. I think you and I both sort of articulated that. When things are ready it reveals itself to us when we are ready or not you know
Victoria Volk 54:51
and universal hit you on the head till you till you open the door. All right,
Lindsay Joy Taylor 54:57
Thank you for all that you’re doing and giving back to this to me The I really appreciate it.
Victoria Volk 55:02
Likewise, come back next week for another interview and thank you Lindsay, for being on and have a great rest of your day everyone. Much love
Child Loss, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
Danielle Duffey: A Bereaved Mother’s Mission for Joy
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
One loss no mother ever wants to experience, and one most of us cannot even fathom, is the death of a child.
Danielle shares how she and her family navigated the most devastating loss of their lives. Danielle says that we are not meant to live this life alone, and through her grieving voice, you will hear just how important support was to her and her family. You will also learn of resources that helped her get through the darkest of days. And, if you know a griever, there are wonderful nuggets shared on how to support others, too.
Danielle found her way from dark to light, and if you need to hear a message of hope, this episode is it.
Connect with Danielle:
Resources Mentioned:
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:55
Hey, thank you for joining us. This week, I have a special guest again, which I’m loving these interviews, I just really thrive on one on one connection with people. And so this has been really fun for me to do these interviews and to get to know people on a deeper level who I may have connected with online socially prior. But also to give them an opportunity to share a message that they have to share about their grief. And into especially those who are trying to build a community themselves around a certain mission, which I can resonate with. And one of those people trying to build a community around a mission is my guest today and her name is Danielle Duffey. And she is the creator of the mission mama podcast. So thank you for being here today for your time and energy. And for sharing your message today. How about you tell a little bit more about yourself.
Danielle Duffey 2:02
Thank you, Victoria for having me. I am absolutely honored to be here today. And to provide my insight on grief. It makes my heart happy and gives me joy. So yes, my name is Daniel Duffy and I’m a southern Minnesota farm wife here on our family farm. I’m an army veteran. We have four beautiful kiddos in SUDC parent as well.
Victoria Volk 2:30
And we share that connection which we’re both in the Midwest, and we’re both army veterans. And so who ra to all the veterans listening and tell us more about what su DC is in what is the mission behind the podcast and how how that came to be
Danielle Duffey 2:50
Yes, SUDC stands for sudden unexplained death of a child. So I’ve gone through many losses in my life, but the most impacted and devastating loss has been my 17 month old son Blake, who at 17 months passed away unexpectedly and asleep and so that foundation has been created out in New Jersey to support families grieving the loss of their child anywhere from 12 months to 18 years of age for unknown causes unexplained I mean we’re talking natural causes for no apparent reason. So were unfortunately a part of this this tribe of families through this life experience I’ve created more recently the mission mama podcast. And the mission behind it is really to provide clarity, connection and confidence to not only fellow Mama’s but you know, women alike that have maybe gone through any sort of trauma in their life, but also about all things motherhood, grief, some of my passions, Midwest travel adventures, you name it, but just in order to become a better version of of oneself. I’m creating that community as we speak and going through life with all these other Mama’s and friends. To just find that clarity and confidence to get through.
Victoria Volk 4:25
First of all, usually, what we create is often out of our pain, and I want to acknowledge that I do not know what it is like to lose a child. So thank you for sharing that. And we’ll dig more into that in the podcast today. But I think a lot of women mothers, we navigate life and especially kind of what I was my kids are older they’re teen preteens and especially when they were young and diapers and all of that I still had this I viewed motherhood is like I was in the trenches like you feel Like you’re in the trenches of motherhood mom veterans out there you can resonate with that term the trenches but but also the word mission right because it is our mission as mothers to provide safety comfort, a strong back for our children when they’re vulnerable and to just ensure that they walk out of our homes at 18 hopefully maybe not. That’s okay too resilient, right? emotionally resilient and able to tackle all of life’s challenges what happens then? If you have a loss of hopes dreams and expectations for that child when you lose them and I don’t know what that’s like, but tell us about Blake
Danielle Duffey 5:44
Oh, obviously getting emotional here but it’s it’s good it’s it’s that purpose and that the why I am you know, getting up every single day. But you got to talk about that loved one and so he you know, being that he was 17 months old, he was so young, starting to show that bright personality talking you know, but he was he was so lovable to give hugs and I he was always an old soul It was very interesting we have an older daughter who at the time was two and a half they were very close in age and so he would always want to protect her and take care of her he had bright blue eyes blonde curly hair and it just he was just so lovable and just so fun and vibrant and loved tractors trucks all boy and so life felt you know life was good at that time we had a boy and a girl and that’s that’s kind of what our plan had been and it just all changed in an instant
Victoria Volk 6:49
I’m not even sure where to go from here.
Danielle Duffey 6:52
It’s hard to fathom I mean literally it just it’s just hard to fathom because especially again, grief is personal not saying there’s just grief this losing a child is just a deep level like it’s unimaginable on like it doesn’t even pop in your mind we didn’t have any warning we didn’t have any there’s no there’s not that closure but I know that that may not have even changed the result if we had been breathing over a sickness or some sort of you know disease whatever but we just had absolutely no warning he was healthy and happy child
Victoria Volk 7:37
And you know how they say like your life changes in an instant even if you have that time to mourn or grieve like with an illness or something like that it’s still in an instant it is but I can’t imagine you you know your child goes to bed vibrant and alive and full of life and I cannot imagine and so I extend my mama arms to you and I wrap you in love and I hope that those listening to this send you all the mama love Juju here thank you and so I I can see where this foundation that you kind of that you briefly spoke about is a I don’t I don’t want to put words in your mouth is it like a deep seated passion now for you to spread the word on this? And is that part of mission mama as well.
Danielle Duffey 8:27
It’s starting to become I think the first few years of this this grief was was very raw in you know in that survival mode. And you know, we had two more children after that we move all these big life changes. And so I felt like I was holding my breath for four years and I wasn’t I wasn’t able to even able to express my emotions. I suppress them for so long. I wasn’t I didn’t grow up talking about feelings, emotions. And so last year really started to manifest and pivot into this new transformation into the mission mama podcast and I’m still learning about what is able to provide me comfort what the SBDC foundation can provide that I knew all along they were able to provide, like this community of families, therapists, they have a retreat all these things but I wasn’t ready and now I am ready to open up my heart and comfort anyone that I can and I can’t even it’s still I still question it. But again, I can’t I can’t live like that I can’t live in so much sadness and despair when I have a family and want to be there in the present. Even if I’m hurting still so very bad. It’s just I’ve become aware I can’t I can’t live in so much sadness when there are tools And resources and a podcast like you’re providing to the community like it’s, it’s incredible truly you can you can move through grief and joy, they coexist.
Victoria Volk 10:11
That is actually the one message that the interviews that I’ve completed so far that is the one thing that I’ve connected the dots of what is said is that joy and sorrow are parallel experiences. And especially when it comes to grief and and just life it’s writers not it’s not one or the other. It’s a and, and you can feel both in within seconds, and that’s okay. But, you know, in the moment, you almost feel like it’s something wrong with me. Am I going crazy? Like I just feel like, I’m just it’s, it’s like a continual roller coaster. I you know, I imagine for myself when I was it was kind of like this roller coaster over many years. But when it initially happens, an event takes place in the split second like that. It’s I’m sure it’s just literally minute to minute.
Danielle Duffey 11:11
Literally, I definitely, that that seems so fresh in my mind. But it has been for years, which is like, wow, where did Where did that time go? Yes, that specially that first year, when you’re going through those firsts of what should have been very raw emotions. I mean, I cried multiple times a day, every single day, and even hearing you just say it’s okay. I never heard that. Because people are so uncomfortable. And even your, your closest family and friends, they’re, they’re grieving in a different way. But they don’t know. They don’t know what you need. I don’t I didn’t know what I needed. I just I didn’t need to hear that it was okay. I had met some mothers that had lost their children at some point previous and that there’s one one gal she reached out of her way I didn’t know her necessarily. And that was one comfort was the joy and sadness coexist. And she recommended me a book and it’s called choose joy by Kay Warren, that I still read to this day. Because it provided it provided that that little comfort that i was i was i needed at the time,
Victoria Volk 12:37
Thank you for sharing that resource. And you bring up a good point and that you have friends and family who are also probably grieving that loss, but it’s going to be different for every, every person involved and they don’t know your grief. Right? Because that relationship is unique and individual and and yours. Yours Mom, you know, like you cared? Like there’s there’s really something special like, we are blessed in that way. Like we carry we carry 100 literally Yeah.
Danielle Duffey 13:10
My husband will admit I mean, the mom carry carried you know, we I carried him throughout my pregnancy and I laid him down for us now. But that’s so special. It’s it’s on the other extreme right? I laid him down for his nap. And I have those memories so close to my heart. And I say one of the misconceptions or realizations that I became aware of is grief is love. And I struggled hard. But why wouldn’t you write?
Victoria Volk 13:58
Exactly? Because you love and I’m curious to like a loss like that, where it’s a child. Men grieve differently, too. And so do you mind speaking to how you did grieve differently and how you have navigated that aspect of your marriage and life?
Danielle Duffey 14:19
Yes, because that that’s also a misconception that I know you had asked for prior to this and I’ve been reflecting on that. And so I think I know a lot of people in general we’re taught to try to fix everything you know, any uncomfortable emotion especially grief is uncomfortable and so I remember very early on is we’re navigating as parents through loss and then our My daughter is I think maybe it’s it’s man, I don’t want to speak to all men. But But you know, there are experiences When I would I would break down or have just constant constant just terrible days and he would want to fix everything he would say he would walk away or distract himself and I’d be sitting there and I felt very discouraged and questions why aren’t we in line with the same emotions the same thoughts what we do said everything How is he leaving the house today? Right? Even my daughter when she would cry we didn’t know what to do I would my approach was it’s okay I know I am so sad I cried today mo you know like where he was more trying to fix it his approach and we we allowed each other to feel what we needed to feel we’ve become stronger but that’s that’s where I just recognized now I knew I need to feel it out feel it out talk through it feel it I mean there were days I just sat there in the house alone and it hurts so bad. But looking back I’m I needed that at that time where now even years later I know how to I know how to get through those bad days with tools and talk to someone where maybe he hasn’t dealt with it as much as I had early on that misconception is grief is personal in spouses 100% they don’t deal with it I think my biggest suggestion is is to listen to each other just and not have Try not to set those expectations because that that really turns into maybe some just resentment or any just it builds up right so over time too I more recently started to talk to a therapist that wasn’t a you know a family or close friend because it’s not the same we I’ve just dealt with over time so much loss and it relates really built up that I finally was able to tell myself okay, I need to start reaching out further into this network of therapy. So
Victoria Volk 17:09
Yeah, and there’s no absolutely nothing wrong with that. You know, I I’ve done another interview to where you know, it’s somehow like we have this notion that because you have a therapist or you’re going to therapy it’s it’s a negative it’s a bad thing and you know, I I went to a doctor and the doctor wants to prescribe an antidepressant and I was like, I did try it but I’m like nope, this is not what I want. This is not what I need and and I had tried therapy and it’s like, you got to find what sticks you got to find what works for you. But there are resources, there are tools there are options and there is hope. Yes, that’s what that’s what I hear in your message is even on the darkest of days. When you are allowing yourself to feel it which I feel is self care in and of itself. Self Care isn’t always just going to get your nails done or you know some people roll their eyes at that like going to get your nails done but if it makes you feel good, that’s self care. I don’t know I i think self care the word itself or the phrases means different things to everybody but I think in grief, just allowing yourself the space to feel itself
Danielle Duffey 18:28
I started doing and I tell this to others is create a joy list because sometimes it’s okay if you just breathe, I mean or get dressed. It’s that’s alright. But over time you can start to add anything throughout your day that does provide joy and so that has helped me even to this day of I’m just having a really crappy day I woke up negative whatever it it is. I know I need to sprinkle in some joy and it can be anything in your home. I can’t leave the house a lot without my kiddos so I take a bath or I I light a candle. I meditate for a few minutes I wake up in the morning, really early and have my morning routine and that is been a saving grace for me.
Victoria Volk 19:18
I love that and I’ve found that for myself as well like in COVID and just the roller coaster that so many people are riding right now with everything going on in the world. I think just making time creating that time in your calendar even if it does mean you have to get up a little bit earlier. You know I’m not a morning person. I don’t know if you are but
Danielle Duffey 19:41
I never used to be until last year having our latest daughter I knew I needed to change up and I started following Rachel Hollis and the start today journal has a gratitude practice that was really pivotal for me because I started doing it One day three days five days and it formed a habit after 30 days and I haven’t stopped since and that gratitude just creates this abundance and openness in your heart and it’s carried over in my life so the listener doesn’t have that I would recommend starting
Victoria Volk 20:21
It brings awareness too to your body and to your breath to your mindset just even just the act the action of thinking about something to be grateful for and maybe not like grateful I had a great night’s sleep and that’s great you know, it might be something as simple as that but is it that you have a warm bed and the comfort and someone next to you that is supportive? You know, you can get a little deeper with it, you know, yes. So I love that tip too.
Danielle Duffey 20:49
Especially when life is or seems so unbearable you it just Yes, that awareness creates these blessings in front of you that you may have not seen before and it’s survival truly
Victoria Volk 21:04
Well and it’s shifting your perspective in a moment and probably in a moment that you really desperately need it right others might end up get we kind of get in a tailspin you know we start down that rabbit hole of negative thought processes and and thoughts and feelings and it just it it snowballs can snowball if we don’t have an awareness around that and so although I don’t know that we can gratitude ourselves out of grief but it is just another tool in the toolbox right? It is you know for those moments where we really might have to dig for something to be grateful for so thank you for sharing that what has been I want to speak to a little bit what was some of the unhelpful things that people unintentionally I do believe it’s unintentional it’s just you know what we kind of learn in since we’re in diapers, but what are some of the things that people said or did that was hurtful or unhelpful in your during your time of loss?
Danielle Duffey 22:06
We’ve we’ve had nothing but strong support and love surrounding us but I think early on especially as those closest to me or even not not even closest to me if I was out in public they they would turn away and it it may seem so small but I haven’t forgotten but it’s it’s not saying anything it’s not acknowledging your loss for gosh sakes like it’s it’s your life I mean and so for those that I remember having you know dinner with one friend here and there and I was so I was suppressing my emotions and I wanted them to bring it up but we had never done and then I remember leaving and I was just devastated and so for I think the mess conception too is if I don’t bring it up they’re not going to be sad right? But it’s the complete opposite and I think it’s just what people didn’t say for the majority we we had nothing but strong support I remember having a food train for the first year of our life of loss of losing bright lights that whole year every single week we had meals and that was so comforting. We didn’t know it was company but it was such a small gesture that went a long way. But I think just again as I said that the unintentional but unhealthy things were what people didn’t say or I guess for me that was that was mostly it. We’ve we’ve just had a really, I would say a healthy grieving process and strong support I don’t I have the type of personality I’ve really never cared what anyone thought and I think that almost helped in the process because there were probably thoughts and assumptions with whatever we were the only one going through that we knew that there was nothing we could do to have prevent this. This is a this is a very rare circumstance but possible and so I guess that’s that’s kind of the gist of what I have to say. But um, I had heard of just so many other stories and families and that guilt that some carry, but we we had a strong support system.
Victoria Volk 24:25
Thank you for sharing that tip on the food train and a year that is amazing. That is amazing support. And the reason why I asked that question though, is because I want to bring an educational piece to how we can support Grievers. Even just when you know someone is grieving, just acknowledging their presence, you know, not turning away but acknowledging that you see them exactly that they don’t have the plague that goes a long way like a smile and a wave. You know, you don’t know what to say. Just smile and Blow a kiss or, you know, if you don’t know what to say there’s gestures to express support, right?
Danielle Duffey 25:07
I think one thing that I, one thing that I just thought of actually, and again, you don’t know what you need. And it’s not really a pet peeve at, you know, at the funeral and over time. So many people would say, please let me know what you need, please reach out, you can barely take a breath, you need to reach out to those grieving parents, you need to just send a message, just say I’m thinking about you. And that’s one thing that I had in my notes is one thing that I provided me comfort was one of my good friends, she’s she’s just so good to me, she texts me or she would reach out every single week for a year. And let us know she’s thinking of us. She would acknowledge those milestones, she would acknowledge Blake’s birthday, she would acknowledge Mother’s Day versus not. And so that meant, and it still means the world to me today. I that’s what I have to say to that. And then one thing that popped in my head, too, as you asked that question was, I was a full time working mom. And I remember going back to work in the office Two weeks later, I don’t even know how I got myself to leave the house. But my employer hadn’t ever gone through something like that. And I didn’t know what I needed. I the misconception, too, is Oh, so you’re taking a lot of time off. And I’m thinking to do what, no, I need to have purpose I need to live I need to stay busy, almost be distracted. But I wish I would have taken more time to be with family to be with friends. Because as soon as the the kind of the funeral and the you know, the family leaves, you’re alone, my suggestion is, is to work from home or just I mean, do what you know how to do do that next best thing, but I didn’t need I should say time off right away, I needed more time throughout the year. But um, I didn’t have any PTO. So I wasn’t I didn’t feel supported in that way. Just reflecting back, though. And again, I didn’t know at that time,
Victoria Volk 27:27
Thank you for bringing that up. And actually, that’s one aspect of you know, that is a blessing of being an entrepreneur is you have that flexibility. But if you do work for somebody else, we typically get, you know, three or four days of bereavement time I use that in quotation marks like, yes, you know, you get three or four days to get over your loss and come back to work and function as you always did. That is so unrealistic. And I do wish and hope that companies if you’re CEO of a company, and you’re listening to this, or you’re an entrepreneur, and you have people working for you, and they are going through a difficult time or period to step up to the plate and support them in their loss, because they are not going to function the same way as they did before in grief. And you can speak to this speak to that your experience of Did you feel like you could concentrate focus, get through the day and be productive? Like Did you feel like you were even being productive?
Danielle Duffey 28:26
It’s pretty much a fog. But no, I had recommended to my employer to start a PTO donation or you know where employees donate, we were a smaller company. So it wasn’t possible. You just need to know that it’s okay if you need to step away or just have that flexibility, know that just validate their emotions.
Victoria Volk 28:50
Absolutely. Grief actually costs our economy into the billions. I think it’s $17 billion a year. And that’s an old statistic, that grave causes companies and our economy and productivity and just loss of work and things like that, because that’s why I just always say this, like grief is our pandemic, it always has been, it’s this unspoken. It’s just this unspoken thing that is an undercurrent of every single one of us, because we all endure loss of some sort, you know, loss of hopes, dreams, expectations, anything we wish would have been different, better or more, you know, that’s in the context of relationships, usually, but we have these intangible losses, these ripples of our losses. Can you speak to those ripples of losses that you experienced? That you can I know I’m kind of putting you on the spot, but it does anything come to mind,
Danielle Duffey 29:45
Maybe some relationships. I think, again, I mentioned this past year after having two more children, not really having a time to take a breath. I’m a new self. We have a new life. So So it’s grieving those intangible losses are relationships new jobs that come and go new passions Blake would be entering kindergarten and so there’s there’s that that I carry you really have to spend some time to have that quietness to really reflect on that but but it does unconsciously affect you so much
Victoria Volk 30:25
But you mentioned a lot of change to during that time it wasn’t just the loss but then a lot of change that followed and you added two more children to your family dynamic and things like that. But like even just moving I don’t know the circumstance of the move but even that like you’re saying goodbye to maybe old neighbors or and I know you said you’d live now in the country.
Danielle Duffey 30:45
So we we actually only moved a quarter mile away, right? So we we live on the family farm, we swapped houses with my in laws and that are probably going to be listening to this. And I’ll be honest, it was a lot right away. I was pregnant with our third child, our son, and it was a lot because so it was happening so fast. I really didn’t have time to reflect, make any decisions. It was just all it was all overwhelming and confusing. However, I think it was the best thing. We’ve recreated a new life in this new home. It was I have faith. It was it was how it was meant to be over there at the old place. There are memories and yes, maybe early on it was it was sad because those were the memories. We spent a lot of time outdoors. That was our home. But now we’ve created our home. We’ve we’ve made it our own, we’ve planted a tree for Blake, we’ve made it our own as time passes it, it doesn’t get better. It just gets different. And it’s really hard to articulate that because we’ve endured so much change. But I can admit that it’s it’s the way it’s supposed to be this was our plan all along. So I’ve become to accept with, with new life with new relationships, there’s going to be loss, those intangible ways and also with growth. I’m a new person I’ve grown so much. And I never imagined talking about this at all, or let alone having my own podcast. So it’s very interesting how life works,
Victoria Volk 32:37
I would have to agree that I’ve experienced exponential growth through loss. Another gal and I on podcast interview and just the one that went live last week Patsy, we kind of briefly touched on that, like, you know, the eye rolls of, there’s gifts in grief. And one of those is growth. I feel you don’t want to hear that though. When you’re that’s the last thing you want to hear probably when you’re really experiencing knee deep in loss. But beautiful things can be on the other side.
Danielle Duffey 33:08
I can yes I can. I can relate to that. I had said before Life was good life felt good. I I felt like I was in the moment moment. I’ve always been an intuitive person, optimistic positive. And then most recently, I feel I feel more awake for whatever reason. It’s It is a beautiful gift. And I can admit to that. I feel weak. And it’s scary. Because you do question the good, but I’ve never been or felt so grateful in my life. I mean, my heart is exploding with gratitude.
Victoria Volk 33:46
I just got chill bumps. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You shared a lot of tips today, connecting with others last, allowing yourself to feel like honoring your feelings and emotions. absolutely important. Not setting expectations, right on anyone else in their grief and how they grieve. And I’m sure even to like just the dynamics of the relationship kind of shift for a time until you recalibrate and you find your way back to each other. And I love to how you shared how to support a griever you’ve given a lot today through your story, and I appreciate you and I thank you for sharing. I just want to read this for everybody because I just I really love it. And this is in Danielle’s words. I believe part of my purpose through the mission mama podcast and community to connect and provide clarity and confidence for those fellow mamas out there. We are not meant to live this life alone. And I think that is absolutely beautiful. We are not meant to live this life alone. And so if there’s anything that you got today from Danielle’s message, I sure hope and I believe wholeheartedly that you’ve, you’ve heard hope today. And that’s to also my mission on this podcast is to share that there is hope. Is there anything else you would like to share?
Danielle Duffey 35:11
As you’ve alluded to, we’re all going through some sort of loss or will in our life. And this morning, I was listening to a podcast by Emily Freeman. And it really sunk in and I so I want to speak to that as my one last thought. But in our world today, supposed to be no longer has a meaning. You know, we all know that to 2020 has really been out of our control to be in control is an illusion. So instead, we’ve had to adapt, accept and acknowledge what we need to let go and continue to just do the next best thing. And I think when to when that is, with your podcast, you’re positively contributing to the world, especially right now. So many people are grieving and having these tools and resources and, and connections is incredible. So thank you for what you do as well. And I feel honored to be your guest today.
Victoria Volk 36:17
Thank you. And also too create a joy list.
Danielle Duffey 36:21
There you go.
Victoria Volk 36:23
There was a lot more I think we could have dug into, but I really feel like we covered a lot. And I feel like what the message that needed to be shared today is good. So I thank you for your message for sharing your grieving voice. And if people want to reach out to you if they want to hear more about the organization, SUDC, if they want to maybe be a part of your podcast, be a guest on your podcast, mission, Mama, where are the best places that people can reach out to you or find you?
Danielle Duffey 36:59
Absolutely. You can find the mission Mama. The best way to connect is on Instagram @themissionmama and I’d love for you to support or acknowledge that SUDC Foundation, you can contact me for more or you can go to sudc.org I’d love a shout out if you need support or comfort. Let’s connect @themissionmama. And again my my heart is full. So thank you.
Victoria Volk 37:29
Thank you for being here. And I will put all of the links in the show notes. She shared a lot of great nuggets, books, the journal everything that Daniel mentioned I will put in the show notes thank you again. My mama heart goes out to you and many blessings for your family moving forward. And to all my dear listeners Thank you for listening for your time. I know it’s precious, but this message I feel like needed to be heard. So thank you have a great rest of your day everyone. Bye. Much love from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Widowhood |
Susan Ways: On the Loss of Her Spouse, Friendships, Transition, and Discovering Her Needs
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
We’re taught how to attain relationships, careers, things, etc.. However, we’re not taught what to do when we lose them.
When Susan lost her husband to a rare form of lung cancer, she was surrounded by grief. From her own pain, she created the Tendrils of Grief podcast, which showcases grief professionals who can help provide guidance and advice to those who might feel so alone in their journey.
Through her podcast, Susan also shines a light on the stories of those who have recently lost someone close to them. It’s a podcast to help you grieve and feel connected to a wider network of people in the same place as you are.
“You are not alone,” she says, “on this journey, and there is a path forward.”
Susan shares how she navigated the loss of her husband, the impact that loss had on other relationships, her daughter, her career, and what she learned, through working with an energy coach in how to discern what she needed for her well-being.
Also, if you know someone grieving, we also dig into the topic of how to show up for grievers, even if it means having a tough conversation.
Connect with Susan:
https://www.tendrilsofgrief.com / [email protected]
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in everyone. Today I bring you Susan Ways. When Susan lost her young husband to a rare form of lung cancer, she was surrounded by grief from her own pain. She created the tendrils of grief podcast which showcases grief professionals who can guide provide, who can provide guidance and advice to those who might feel alone in their journey and feel connected to a wider network of people in the same place. You are. You are not alone, she says on this journey. And there is a path forward. So I look forward to bringing you Susan and our conversation today. Susan, say hello, welcome. Welcome to the show.
Susan Ways 0:41
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be a part of your show.
Victoria Volk 0:45
Yes. And I was actually on Susan’s podcast, the tendrils of grief that has not aired yet is that correct?
Susan Ways 0:52
It has not aired, it’s coming up.
Victoria Volk 0:54
And we had a really good conversation about the grief recovery work that I do and stuff, and I just really resonated with Susan’s story. Her early story of grief is really quite parallel to my own, as you’ll, as you’ll hear later in the show, but what brought you to starting the tendrils of grief?
Susan Ways 1:15
Well, it’s really an interesting story. Because when my husband was sick and diagnosed with cancer, he knows that I love to write and I had a very successful blog on HR, because that’s what I do professionally. And some of my blog entries have over 20,000 views. So was quite popular. And it was something I could do. And my heart just wasn’t with it. And in that at the time. And so he had asked me to write a book on his journey. And I journaled everything because I journal regularly and I journaled everything as he went through his journey. But I didn’t really feel led at that time. And things change, as you know, and you’re in a different place all the time. But I didn’t feel led to write a book. And I also didn’t have the attention span when I was grieving to really even read books. But what I did have the attention span to do was to listen to a podcast, providing that it wasn’t too long. And I started to look for podcasts on grief. And I just couldn’t find anything that was relatable. It was all very prescriptive and done from mental health professionals and talking about the stages of grief and the psychology of grief and the chemical brain reaction to grief. And I remember one time there was a podcast title, labeled social media and grief. And I was so excited about that. And I tuned into it, and it was want want long, boring. And so I was like, I’ve got to get a podcast out there that’s relatable because I can’t be the only person out here experiencing that the lack of attention, the lack of wanting to sit down and read and finish a book, but having little blocks of time where I could plug into something. And I felt like this would be a great opportunity for me to pay it forward. And it also became an incredible part of my healing process.
Victoria Volk 3:10
I love that. It’s it’s like you, you’re looking for something like what could be helpful to me. And when you didn’t find it, you jumped in. Right?
Susan Ways 3:19
Right and created it.
Victoria Volk 3:21
Yeah, exactly. That’s what we do in entrepreneurship. That’s what that’s what creation and creatives do. So I love that. So what did you find was helpful to you. During that time? I know you said it was you felt it was healing. But can you speak more? A little bit more to that, like, what was it? Was it just because what kind of guests do you have typically?
Susan Ways 3:44
There were a couple of things that were helpful to me. One was, first of all, it’s important to know that I was up at night, really afraid? How am I going to find gas to do a weekly podcast? How am I going to find topics, and I can’t keep guests from coming. And that’s a great problem to have. And I’m grateful for that. But I have so many guests and it’s I had to take a little bit of a step back because I was getting so far ahead of my recording schedule. So talking to all of these different people and hearing their stories and understanding that I’m not alone because you get stuck in shame and guilt, and all of those negative emotions because I have one podcast that’s been extremely popular where I talk about my transition back to work, and I felt like I had done something wrong and my grieving was wrong and that my grieving made me unprofessional and non productive and not worthy as an employee. And it was so incredibly hurtful to me. And it was almost it was shameful to talk about because as a professional, you want to be seen as a superstar. And so I left that job I had to leave that job because it was killing my soul. When I left it was so empowering. But there was a Wait, how do I share the story and then I started to talk to other people and they have the same story and I had Some difficult relations with other people in my family around my grief and conflicting grieving styles. Again, you feel like a bad person, and I should accept these people, and I should love them, and I should create space for them. But I just realized through this journey and talking to other people, no, I don’t have to do that. The one thing and I talked about the social media podcast that I listened to, and I was really excited because we log on to social media, sometimes first thing in the morning, and you see other people’s wonderful lives, and they have it showcased and lights and stars, I felt like my life was not wonderful, and it makes you feel really badly. And so I brought on a social media expert, who actually is a woman’s business social media expert, but she came on and delivered the podcast that I needed to hear personally about empowering yourself creating the social media community that feeds your soul, not one that sucks from it, I gave myself permission through her words, to create a really empowering social media community. And I no longer have that fear of logging on in the morning. But I if I do if I log on, and I see a post that doesn’t make me feel good, I can unfollow you, or I can unfriend you. And I’ve given myself permission to do that. So just a lot of stories, a lot of parallel stories from people from grief professionals from just other professionals, like she’s not a great professional, she’s a social media expert. And just having that empowerment and that permission to stand up for myself and create my own path forward was really just the most empowering thing I think I’ve gotten from all of this.
Victoria Volk 6:41
You bring up a good point in that cleaning up our social media is probably one of the first acts of self care that we can do as a griever. And when we’re grieving, because like you said, you can you can be wrapped up in your own story, but and that takes time and however much time it takes you to unravel all of that, and the feelings of with that. But what isn’t helpful, like you said, his people who will come on and say remarks like well, you should be over it by now, like all these myths of grief that were taught from childhood or not, and replace the loss, you know, you can marry again, you’re young yet you know, things like that. So that’s a very important message, I think to share with people today that they can take away is that you know, maybe look at your social media and clean up what what you’re putting into your brain, what is not helping you feel better, right? Also, too, can you speak to that transition a little bit?
Susan Ways 7:40
Sure. And I do want to say one quick thing, follow up to the social media piece is that we’re taught that if we unfriend someone or unfollow them, that it’s mature, or it’s petty, childish, and it’s really not, because just saying I don’t want to be connected with you on Facebook doesn’t mean I don’t value you as a person, it doesn’t mean that I don’t like you, it just means that it’s not part of that social media media community that I’m looking to build. And so I just kind of want to throw that out there. Because when we give ourselves permission to do things, we have changed the narrative around it too. And it’s you can have conversations with people or not. And I know some people were upset that I unfriended them on Facebook, but that’s okay. Because if you’re my friend, you’re going to pick up the phone and have a conversation with me about it. And those are some of the things that I learned. The transition for me moving into the podcast was really around, I have actually been working with a coach who is an energy coach, and not something that I ever believed in, and not something that I ever really liked. But I just like her style of coaching. And I like her. And she’s was working with me on the podcast and working on manifesting and really trying to visualize what it is that I want and then create that. And watch how I talk about it and watch how I position it. And it’s interesting because like I said, I just the guests were coming to me the shows were coming to me Everything was unfolding in this really beautiful organic way. And my listenership has been steadily increasing. And I don’t, success is a relative term. And people success might mean money and fame to some people. And it might just mean making a difference to someone else. And Success to me just meant that I was reaching people, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be 1000s and 1000s of people. I just want to be reaching people. So as I evolved through this process and got very clear on what it was that I wanted as an outcome and what I wanted my guests to walk away from. It’s just it’s been wonderful and I’ve had non Grievers reach out to me and say, thank you so much for this because I never know what to say when someone is grieving somebody actually reached out to me that I don’t even know now I’ve never met and they said, I just want to thank you because my best friend lost her mom two years ago. And after listening to your podcast, I realized I didn’t show up for her the way I should have. And I called her to apologize and keep doing this. So that stuff, just really, that transition has just been an evolution. And it’s been a very slow and natural evolution, which is what has kept me motivated to keep going.
Victoria Volk 10:26
And I think we share the same mission, right to reach as many people as we can. And that’s why we started podcasts about grief in our own experiences and things like that. I also want to bring circle back to the support you didn’t feel when you decided to leave your job and what you were experiencing there. Because I think that often is the case where employers, you know, I think the standard in the us right now is like you get four days of bereavement time. It’s like so even our employers are deciding how much time it takes you to grieve like, okay, you get four days, like that’s the standard, something like that three to four days, I’m not sure. Obviously, if you have paid time off, you can use that or sick leave. But that’s actual like set aside for bereavement time, which clearly is not like you’re not going to bury your loved one. And then Okay, I’m back. You know, that’s unrealistic. But yet people look to you to do that. society expects you to come back and be back as a whole person and to function as you did before. But grief changes us, you know that I know that it changes every cell changes you on a cellular level. I mean, kudos to you, though, for recognizing that it wasn’t a supportive environment and forgiving yourself permission like, Hey, I don’t need this. This isn’t serving me, this isn’t helping me. It’s draining me. It’s soul sucking, I think, too, it’s like, that’s where we need to, like you said, give ourselves permission to create those boundaries, whether it be on social media, whether it be in relationships, face to face with our employers, employees, co workers, family, I think that’s one to where we really discover at some point in grief, where we need to create boundaries, eventually, you know, you get to the point where you’re just kind of sick of what’s coming at you all the time, right? That’s unhelpful, and often hurtful, not necessarily intentional, but based on what we all learn. That’s just what we know, we resort to what we know, the one loss that brought you to starting the podcast was the loss of your husband, do you want to speak to that?
Susan Ways 12:34
Sure. The, and I want to double back a little bit just because it losing my I didn’t lose my job, I walked away from my job. But it was a very important part of this journey that brought me to wanting to do the podcast. And I think that one thing that’s important to mention when people go through this is something’s not all bad, or not all good. And it becomes a confusing space to be in. And there was a person that I worked with, at this company, who I think is one of the most amazing human beings that I ever met, and somebody who I just really valued their friendship. And she didn’t show up for me at a critical time in my life, the way I needed her to show up. And she didn’t, because she felt she couldn’t, because there were consequences to her and it becomes a self preservation type of situation. And so I’m not actively angry at her, I’ve chosen not to be in a relationship with her at this point, because I just one of my values has become my friend show up for me even when it’s tough for them. But likewise, I show up for my friends, even when it’s tough for me, and I’ve learned that so I want to definitely model that behavior. But there were some wonderful things that my employer did some very generous things, including they sponsor the wake the dinner at the wake for my husband’s so it became confusing, because there were these wonderful things that they did. And then these awful things. And as I was in a grieving state where you know, you’re not always thinking clearly, and you’re not always focused. And they, I just became extra confused. But what I knew is I became fearful. And when I feel like this is another one of my values that has come out of that, when I feel that I have to protect myself against you, we have a problem. And I’ve learned to pay attention to that and not make excuses for people because my analogy is if you have a dog, and you pet the dog 810 times and eight times the dog licks your hand and twice the dog bites you you’re always going to be afraid to pet the dog, even though the bites are less frequent exponentially than the licks. So that’s just human nature. So I want to make that really clear because I think that as people are grieving and they’re in, whether it’s a work relationship or just another personal relationship where you feel there’s this conflict of good and bad and carrots and sticks or whatever you want to call it licks and bytes. Whatever it is, you really need to pay attention to that. And you need to make sure that something is filling your soul and isn’t leaving you questioning yourself your own value, or what how you’re grieving what you’re going through. Because however you grieve is how you grieve. And there’s no right or wrong way to that. So I just want to highlight that, but that loss, my husband passing away, because we had a great marriage, we had a great life, we had a great family, we were grateful, we were happy. We just really, today is the start of football season. Technically, I think it started Thursday night, but today there’s games on. And this would be a time when football would be on the TV and I would be making dinner and we would be at home doing projects together. And I missed that. That’s something that I really appreciated in our life, and something that I don’t have now. So this loss really just seeped into every area of my life. And that’s how I came up with the title tendrils of grief because it’s not just the sadness. It’s not just the loss, there’s there’s things that people don’t realize, when there’s a noise in the middle of the night, I’m now the one that has to get up and go investigate it, it’s silly little things like that. Or if something needs repaired around the house, I’m YouTubing, how to repair things. I’ve repaired the dishwasher, I’ve repaired the garage door, I repaired the washing machine. I’ve done all these things I never thought I could do which is wonderful and empowering. But there’s a part of me that feels resentful to that it has to be me that it’s not him anymore. And I wanted to talk about those things, I wanted to talk about that magical one year anniversary, where everyone thinks that you have flipped the switch into moving forward. Or even if you’re dating that that means Oh, you’re over that now you’re over the last year over the grief, and you’re not, and things can live, they can coexist in the same space, you can have a life with someone else while still grieving the loss of somebody else. And it’s just there’s a lot of things that I just felt like were really important to talk about. And I think the one event that pushed me over the edge to knowing that I had to do this beyond a shadow of a doubt is I didn’t want to live after my husband died. And I wondered many times, if I didn’t have my daughter, would I have ever had the courage to commit suicide because I just I didn’t I wasn’t actively suicidal. But I knew I didn’t want to be here anymore. I really just wanted to go and be with my husband. And I was really shameful about that. And I didn’t want to tell anyone because I didn’t want to, I’m having all of these really catastrophic thoughts such as they’re gonna come and take my daughter away from me, because I’m suicidal, that they’re gonna come and put me in a mental institution, or they’re going to make me take medication. And I didn’t want any of that. So I didn’t talk about it. And finally, I said to one of my really good friends who lost her husband, I said, Do you ever feel like you don’t want to live anymore? And she said, Oh, yeah, every day. And I didn’t even want to Google search it because I was so afraid that somebody would find out that I had Google search this and they didn’t start to sound the alarm. So when I and then I started to talk about it more, I have a broader group of ladies, I know I’ve lost their husband and I talked to them about it. And every one of them was like, Yes, we feel like this all the time. And I thought, if I’m feeling shame, and fear around this, other people are too and I’ve got to start getting the message out there to people around all of these things, whatever it is that people want to talk about around their grief, someone else needs to hear that message.
Victoria Volk 18:42
That’s Yeah, absolutely powerful. Just everything you just said. Like you said, it seeps into every aspect of our lives. And I’m curious, though, what was the one aside from you finding inspiration or feeling that inspired, hit or however you want to say it to start the podcast? What was it in particular, that helped you flip that switch? Like, what was it? Had you been going to therapy? Had you just kind of through journaling? Had you had this awareness of what needed to change? Like, how did you turn around all of those thoughts and feelings? Like what was it for you?
Susan Ways 19:26
Well, I was going to, I was getting the coaching with the coach that the energy coach that I had been talking about, I was still in grief counseling at the time, as well. But the energy coach really did help me see that. But my friends started to come to Me too. And they started to say, you need to do this, we want you to do this, this will be great for you. And all of a sudden I had support from my community that I didn’t solicit because you know, when you go and we ask our friends and we say, Hey, I’m thinking about doing this, what do you think? And they’re thinking, Oh, yeah, That’s a great idea while they’re shaking their head, no. And I didn’t get that I got I wasn’t really going to them. I was talking about it and saying, I’m kind of thinking about doing this, but I don’t know I’m scared. And then they started to come back to me and say, You need to do this, you need to do this. And finally working with the coach. She said to me, and I trust this woman so much. She said to me, Susan, you need to do this. She said, I have goosebumps just listening to you talk about this podcast, and you need to do this. She said, you are going to help so many people. And that was really when I was like, Alright, dammit, I’m doing it. And I just jumped off the ledge and did it. And before that I had done all this investigation. All of this research, I contacted podcasting, hosting companies, I looked at different equipment. I was kind of window shopping everything. But when she said that, I was like, Okay, I’m in, because I wanted to do it. And again, it comes down to permission a lot for many of us, not just me, but I can only speak for me, it comes down to permission for me. And sometimes when I want to do something that’s scary and uncertain, I just need the permission of the right people around me. And I all of a sudden felt like I was getting that. And so I just went for it.
Victoria Volk 21:18
Support huge. Absolutely. I 100% agree. What does that quote something you’re you’re a some of the five people you surround yourself with, or something like that, right? So especially in grief, I absolutely agree. Support is huge. And it’s why like in grief recovery, we have the groups which are phenomenal for people who want to are ready to take action. I’m curious if you had tried like traditional, like church support groups, things like that. Had you tried that at all, prior, like early on,
Susan Ways 21:47
I went to a hospice support group. And it was not a good fit for me. And probably, Paul had passed maybe three between three and six months at that point. And I went in, and there were people there who were very stuck in grief. And I’m gonna say this with no judgement, because I’m talking about what I needed to feed my soul at that time. But there were people who just really were talking in a in a really depressive way they were, there was one conversation about what kind of medication are you on? And what kind of medication Are you on. And I thought I don’t want to take medication and not because there’s anything wrong with it. But I have a very bad reaction to any kind of like SSRI or any kind of medication in that class. So it’s hard for me to take medication, and that wasn’t a path I wanted to go down. And I there was one woman who couldn’t get out of bed. And she had lost her job because she couldn’t show up physically to work. And here I was slugging it out every day and getting kind of attacked at work. And then there was a woman who didn’t get out of bed and and I thought I don’t want to be that person. And you know, it’s just a, it’s just a twist of fate to not be that person, because you have to really well yourself many times to get up and get out of that. And there was another woman who had lost her husband, and then got engaged and lost her fiance. And it was just too much sad for me. And I needed hope. And that’s what I wanted. I didn’t want to sit in a room with people who didn’t appear to have hope, which was what that group ended up feeling like for me. And it was probably wonderful for all of them because maybe they needed to commiserate. And that was part of their grief process and part of their healing journey. But it was terrifying for me because I was like, I don’t want to be here in five years having this conversation. I don’t want to be not able to get out of bed. I don’t want to be just one woman was getting evicted from her house, which I know happens to a lot of people because they just can’t afford after they lose someone. And on my podcast, a young woman talks about how she her mom passed away while she was in college, and she got evicted from the apartment that they were living in together. I mean, that’s a very horrible reality. But I needed help. I needed somebody to say, I got through this. And here’s how. And I needed a lot of somebody to say that and not somebody that was a multimillionaire, you read about these people in the magazines, or you see them interviewed on TV, and to me they’re not real and I know they’re real, but their life is not relatable at all to my life. I needed people that I could relate to and again, becoming a part of what led me into wanting to do the podcast.
Victoria Volk 24:39
And that’s one of the distinctions too we make in grief recovery is those the difference between a grief recovery group and then a regular support group and that like you said, there’s there really isn’t action involved. And that’s the distinction I want to make too and that you recognize there was an action being taken. There was there wasn’t hope there. It That’s the distinction, I think, is that there wasn’t hold because there wasn’t action. So you come back week after week, and you share the same story, you’re in the same story week after week, where is the whole and even that is a choice. So that’s a choice we make, even in grief. And that is, the difficult part of it is that it’s not a judgement. But we have to have that awareness about ourselves. And I think oftentimes, too, it comes down to what you feel worthy of, you know, what I think so often to like, when people engage in this traditional support groups, it might feel like, I’m not worthy of more, I’m not worthy of healing, I’m not worthy of there’s better than this, I deserve better than this. And that’s a hard thing to come to, if you never felt worthy. And that’s where I suffered for over 30 years, because I didn’t feel worthy, you know, I’d worked self worth issues, like many of us do, but so I that’s where I commend you and saying, what you saw possibility you saw hope elsewhere, you know, and that’s the message to I want to get across to people listening is that hope isn’t gonna find us if we aren’t looking for it necessarily. Sometimes we’re, we’re kind of blinded to it, it can even hit us on the head. And we might not even see it the potential or the possibility, because we’re so we’re just so sad. We’re so down, we’re so consumed by our reality at the time. So what
Susan Ways 26:30
I love the term that somebody said to me once, that when you start complaining about something without any kind of actionable outcome, because how do I get out of this situation, we all have problems. And life is not perfect, or neat or pretty all the time. And when you have these issues that come up, you want to work them out with your friends, and so you have a conversation. But when you’re having that conversation over and over again, and this is what I really just walked away with from talking to this other person is that you’re now having a non versation. And conversation is when you’re talking to somebody about something you have no intention or action plan, as you said, on how to change it. And I didn’t want that I needed to know that there was hope. And I needed to start to attract people into my life because as you said, You have a choice. And I could have gone to that support group week after week. And I could have wallowed in my self pity, and not moved forward and commiserated with people in that same energy that I was in. Or I could begin to attract the people in my life that were going to show me that there was hope. And not only show me how there was hope, but show me how to get there. And how did they get there, and what tools did they use, because grieving is not a one size fits all. And you can talk to 20 people and get 20 different tools, and they’re all going to work for you at different times, or maybe not all are going to work for you. But some may not work at the time that you hear them, but may work later. And some might be able to be massaged into something that can work for you. So I think that’s really important is when you do make those choices, it’s about being clear on your vision and where you want to go. And then beginning to create that vision and surrounding yourself with those five people that you’ve talked about earlier.
Victoria Volk 28:15
I love the talk about energy too, because as an energy healer in Reiki, which I didn’t get opened up to until after I did my own grief recovery work with on myself, but we are energy. And every thought every feeling has energy behind it. And so when you’re in a room, and you’re trying to vibe, I guess you could say or, you know, come from a space of high vibes or just more elevated energy, where you want to attract that to you. It is harder when you’re surrounded by less hopeful energy, I guess you know, I think you know what I’m trying to say. But yeah, so it is the energy we bring.
Susan Ways 28:58
Sometimes you need to sit in that energy. Sometimes you need to be in that non helpful energy. And I’m a big believer that you go through your grief process in a way that’s meaningful to you. And trust me, I had many pity parties, and I had many non helpful days. And I finally got on my own nerves and was I just couldn’t, I didn’t want to be around myself. I couldn’t imagine how anyone else wanted to be around me. And so that’s really what inspired me to start searching for hope.
Victoria Volk 29:25
Same. Absolutely. 100% that’s I got tired of my own Bias, right? Really? So what would you like to screen to the world and the rich people knew about your grief.
Susan Ways 29:38
There’s two things that I would like people to know about my grief. One is and it’s really funny because I was having a conversation with a friend who lost his wife and they were married a little bit longer than Paul and I were married but I said you know that sideview mirror that says objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. I said I feel like I need a sign on me that says My life is not quite as put together as what it would appear, and I think that people judge you and treat you the way they perceive your life is going. And just because I’m smiling and well put together on the outside doesn’t mean that I’m not falling apart on the inside. And my grieving is not over. And I would like people to know that. And I would also like people to know that to show up with love, and show up with tenderness. And that’s been really important to me, and especially for those people who love me and who I’m friends with, or who I have in my inner circle. Even days when I may be behaving in an unlovable way, tell me that, but tell me in a lovable way, that I’m behaving that way. And I talk about this so often on my podcast, I had a friend who I thought was just a really, really good friend. And she just stopped talking to me. And in the process of stopping talking to me, she was pretty ugly about it. And I tried to talk to her and find out what was going on. And the only thing I can think of is that I was relying on her very heavily, too heavily during my grieving. And she made a couple of comments to me, but she never sat down and said, hey, look, I love you. And you matter to me, but I’ve got my own family and my own job and my own stuff going on. And this is really too heavy for me. So if you can start to look for other resources, I would really appreciate that she never did that. She just cut me off and did it in a really unloving and ugly way. And my daughter was actually very good friends with her daughter. And her daughter began to treat my daughter in the same exact way. So I’m sure there was some conversations, and I’m only assuming, and I don’t know, but I’m guessing there were some conversations in that household. Because her daughter didn’t like the way my daughter was grieving and became very ugly, and actually created an uncomfortable situation for my daughter and a sports not event but a sporting a sport that she was involved in. And this girl, as teenage girls will do allied up with other girls and was quite ugly. And Madison ended up having to pretty much walk away from the sport for the, again for what was good for her soul and what was best for her soul. And so I just treat people with love to speak kind that saying that you don’t know the battle that someone is fighting, you don’t have to like someone, you don’t have to be their best friend, but treat them with kindness. And if you do love someone sit down and have a conversation with them, because they deserve it, you deserve it, your relationship deserves it, and it’s going to make you a better person in the long run.
Victoria Volk 32:38
I relate to that story, too. I had lost a friendship kind of in the same sort of way where they just stopped talking to me and I didn’t understand what was going on. And really, it came down to me, like, kind of latching on and too much coming on too strong or feeling like maybe I was more invested in her than she wasn’t me, you know, and it was hurtful. And but that’s the ripples, right? The ripples of grief, how it just kind of makes its way outward. And like you explained, you know, with your daughter, the friendship, how that just kind of, you know, created ripples then in her life and impacted her then as well. I think that’s one thing too, we don’t realize is how one action that we take. And one thing that we say can just really have those ripples. And so I appreciate you bringing that up just the fact of having, looking at people with tender eyes, almost as if you have their heart in your hands like that. Yeah. I think Yeah, I’ll leave
Susan Ways 33:43
Is a great way to put that because it really just I’m a strong person, I don’t like to ask for help. And I think what happened now that I look back is that I found someone who I thought was safe to ask help from and I probably asked too much. Because in trying to keep myself comfortable, I made that person uncomfortable. And again, I can only guess because I’ve tried to have conversations and the person will not engage and I just walked away because it was not good for my soul, I would have been so fine if that person just like I said was loving and kind and said, Hey, this is just too much for me. Because people do have their own lives and they can’t hold my hand and they can’t be there for me and take the role of my late husband. But it was a big change for me. And he was the caretaker and he was the one he worked from home. And so he did all the transportation and he did a lot of the things during the day and now all of a sudden I had to do it all by myself. And I thought I had someone that could be a good partner in that and probably overstepped my boundaries and I’m sure that I did, but there’s a gentle and a loving way to communicate that to someone especially when they’re grieving. You should do it anyway. But when someone’s grieving, take that extra couple of steps to just be more loving and more gentle.
Victoria Volk 35:00
I love that. Yes, absolutely. I had another thought, but it escaped me. Actually, I want to go back to your grieving story doesn’t begin with your husband. When did first experience grief in your life,
Susan Ways 35:18
When my when I was young, I was 11 years old, and my father had a heart attack and passed away. And it was very sudden. And I won’t say that it was unexpected for me as a child, but not unexpected for the people around him because he had a heart condition. And back then heart surgery was just as risky is weighing out the odds of maybe having a heart attack. So he died. And shortly thereafter, within the next year, my mom started to go out a lot. And she started to date. So she wasn’t home. And I had have two older brothers, who are significantly older than me. And they were living their own life. And they were out and about doing their own thing. But within the next year, they started to, they moved out, both of them moved, and my mom was just almost she was gone. Every weekend, she was gone. Some nights during the week, she wasn’t there. When I came home from school, she had always been a stay at home mom. So I went from this very typical, stay at home kind of a Brady Bunch ish family, and not in the blended sense, but in the sense that we were the stay at home mom and the dad that was home at six o’clock every night, and the family dinners and all of that to being alone. And from 12 years old, on the heels of losing my dad and there was no therapy back then you didn’t you just got over it, you didn’t talk about it. It’s funny because the show Burn Notice, which I don’t watch. But I know the premise. It’s that’s how I felt about my dad, it was like he was a part of our life. And then he just wasn’t we didn’t talk about him anymore. And so all of this loss and a lot of loss in a short period of time during a formative time in my life. And I ended up really raising myself in many cases. And my mom married a man when I was 14, who was just awful, and awful to me during a really important time grieving and a teenager. And so when you talk about ending up with self worth issues there, there was just this compounded loss that came into my world. And I shared with you in the meeting that we had that I admired my husband so much because he was a wonderful father. And I even shared that with him right before he died, how much I enjoyed watching him with our daughter, because he was such a great father and I missed out on that part of being a child having a father and I got to watch it through him. And then two months later, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And that was a punch in my soul.
Victoria Volk 37:48
And I we had talked earlier how my story is a little is parallel to yours, except I was a little bit younger, I was eight. But I what resonates with me and what what you shared when you got to witness your husband, and how he was with your daughter. That’s how I feel with my husband. And every time my children, I have three kids every time each of them turned eight years old. I imagine them being me. And if their father passed away, you know, it’s like that’s what was going through my mind when they turned eight, like what my experience was, and reflecting on what because when I was eight people looked at me like I didn’t know what was going on. In fact, someone even said that she doesn’t know what’s going on anyway. And that’s burned into my brain over 30 years later, you know, that’s one thing I remember. And which I remember everything. I saw my dad in the grave in his, you know, casket, it’s, you know, I was there, you know, and I watched him the decline over two years as well, you know, you died of cancer. And so when I looked at my kids, it was like, would they understand? Absolutely, they would understand? Absolutely, they would know what grieving is when you didn’t have that support. And I didn’t have that support. I understand that. I understand that. And it changes you. Right. It absolutely changes you. I’m sure it changed to how you were there for your daughter, right?
Susan Ways 39:14
Absolutely. It absolutely did. And we talk about her dad a lot. And actually today, four years ago was the day that he ended up in the hospital and I he subsequently had a cancer diagnosis, but he ended up in the ER, this day four years ago. So this was when our journey ended. And I posted on Facebook this morning that I woke up living my best life and went to bed in a nightmare. And so it’s she and I talk about a lot of that stuff and a lot of what her dad brought to her life and I really want to keep his memory alive and let her know that he’s still a part of my life. He’s still a part of her life and even though our lives are gonna move forward They’re going to move forward with his fingerprints all over them.
Victoria Volk 40:05
I love how you said that. I love I said that I actually just had an interview yesterday with a gal who has remarried and has a family now. But she had a first husband who had passed away unexpectedly. And she said, you know, yes, I’m happy. Yes, I’m remarried. Yes, I have, you know, child and one on the way. But I still grieve the first husband, you know, and I think that’s the thing that people really don’t understand either is you can have joy, you can be happy, and you can still grieve, right? It’s, you know, it’s not, or it’s and, you know, and they, we exist in, in that and space, it’s both happy and joyful, and happy and sad. And, you know, sadness doesn’t go away. But the distinction too, is that it’s what you do with it, you know, do you let it be the captain of your life? Or do you turn it for something positive and good, and to create ripples, positive ripples around you, and like you, and there is no timeline to that to how long that takes. But we, we each make that choice for ourselves. But I can tell you, if, if I would have discovered or had the knowledge I had a year and a half ago, I wouldn’t have spent 10 years of you know, my 20s and 30s, feeling how I was feeling, you know, it almost then I have grief around. If only I could have changed my life back then if only I would have known this back then if only if only if only, you know, and that’s just more grief. And that just adds to my suffering. So I’ve had to learn to release that and give myself that compassion, as I’m sure you have over the years as well just like, have that compassion for yourself. You know, it’s it’s as much as to give it to other people, but it’s often hardest to give it to ourselves.
Susan Ways 42:02
Right? It is, I think that is the absolute hardest because we are our own worst critic. And I love somebody had said once, if someone else said the stuff to you that you say to yourself in your head, would you be friends with them? And I think about that all the time, because I will stop myself now and be like, no, I would not tolerate that from anyone else. And I’m not going to do it to myself.
Victoria Volk 42:27
Exactly. Or would you tell it say that to a child, you know, and we all carry our own our inner child within us, you know, all the lessons and everything and learning and conditioning and all of that that we’ve grown up with? What is one tip that you would give another hurting heart today?
Susan Ways 42:47
To know that things will get better. And that doesn’t mean that the grief will go away. But the windows become further apart. And I still I’m coming up on three years now. And I still have bad days. And there might be two bad days in a row. But I know they’re just days. And I know that a good day is behind that. And a lot of days are just days. But there’s some days that are bad. There’s some days that are great. And I think just knowing that there is hope that there is a path forward, that there’s a lot of people out there that care and find them, surround yourself with them. And just make that your inner circle. And if it doesn’t feel good, let go of it. That’s a lot more than one tip. Sorry.
Victoria Volk 43:33
Well, amen. No. Amen. I love that. So if people want to reach out to you, where’s the best place they can do that?
Susan Ways 43:43
They can, depending on what it is that they’re looking for. I have the tendrils of grief website, which is www.tendrilsofgrief.com. And all the podcasts are listed there. And there’s a forum to connect with me there. They can email me at [email protected]. And that’s really the best way to reach me if you want to talk about grieving or the podcast.
Victoria Volk 44:10
Perfect. And I’ll put those that information also on the show notes. But I thank you Susan, is there anything else you want to add or share today?
Susan Ways 44:19
No I think covered a lot today. So this was really wonderful. Thank you for what you’re doing. I think it’s really I think what you do at the grief recovery Institute, refreshing approach to counseling and to moving forward with grief. And it is about recovery. It’s not just about talking about your feelings and sitting in your feelings. It’s really about finding that path forward. And I think it’s just really wonderful that there’s people out there who get that and who are providing that channel for grievers. So as I said on my pod podcast when you were on I hope people look you up and plug into that
Victoria Volk 44:53
And likewise I love that you bring on people of different areas like this. Social media thing. I mean, that’s a great avenue that I wouldn’t have thought of you know that. But it’s important. Like that’s what we ingest every day, right social media and it all impacts us. He does. Yeah, it’s important. Well, thank you so much, Susan for being here. I look forward to actually hearing our episode as well on tendrils of grief. Tune in next week for another podcast. Until then, everyone, take care much love.
Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Podcast, Postpartum, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
Patti H.: Widow, Miscarriage, IVF, and Grief Recovery Experience
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Patti shares her grieving voice on being a widow and how, despite moving on with life, her heart still grieves the loss of her first husband.
However, grief didn’t start for her there, and she touches on grief with the living, and later, a miscarriage, and her and her current husband’s shared experience with IVF.
Patti also shares what’s helped her get through the hard days, and how the Grief Recovery Method has helped her navigate her losses, and, be a supportive heart with ears for others.
Loss and grief accumulate throughout life. If Patti’s stories resonate with you, you can find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/journey2babyherr2/
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If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
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WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
Victoria Volk 1:35
Hey, everybody, thanks for returning to the podcast this week, I have a very special guest. Patty. She was one of the participants in my very first grief recovery method program group program. And she’s going to be sharing her grieving voice with you today. Patty, want to say hi,
Patti 2:00
hi, everyone. I’ve never done this before. So
Victoria Volk 2:04
no, this will be great. Just a conversation. Let’s start with what brought you to grief recovery. We’ll start there.
Patti 2:14
So I’ve had a lot of grief in my life. And I try not to let it well it It made me of who I am today. But I try not to let it lead my life. But I realized that I needed to work on some things. And I heard about this and messaged you about it and asked some questions. And I thought I might as well just give this a try. But it turned out to be something completely opposite of what I thought it was going to be. I thought I was going to be doing something about my husband and it turned out not to be that it turned out to be someone living in my life.
Victoria Volk 2:48
And when you how had you tried other things before to help process your grief?
Patti 2:54
I was kind of in the mood of I didn’t want to talk to a stranger like a counselor about someone about my husband who they didn’t even know. And so to me, I just kind of push that all the way. I guess so. No, I haven’t tried anything else.
Victoria Volk 3:13
Okay, so tell what would you say has been or was the hardest thing or has been the hardest thing about the loss of your husband because this this was actually your your first husband? Yep. And you’ve since remarried and a beautiful boy and another on the way and you’re happy now with you know great relationship share with our listeners how that transition from that loss and and what you experienced during that time. And in what could have been more helpful to you or what was helpful to you just kind of share a little bit more about that loss and then in the transition from that loss into where you are now in your relationship with your new husband.
Patti 4:13
So it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to go through. Um, I we hadn’t been married that long, a year and a half I think it was and just it was so tragic and fast. Like it was very unexpected. So he was only 32 years old and it was a four wheeler accident at work. So it was very unexpected. But I clung on to people that wanted to be around me and I kind of learned who my true friends were. Some people I lost friendships over this and it’s weird that you would think like I didn’t cause him you know his death or anything but I did lose friendships. family dynamics changed as far as his family and me um, and then just Just me as a person, I changed it. I think people say like, it kills a little bit of you. And I wouldn’t say it killed a little bit of me. But it definitely like changed how I thought about life and the way I lived life, I wanted to kind of get away from everything. So I applied for some different jobs and ended up moving to Asheville, North Dakota, I had only planned on staying there for about a year. And then I wanted to move south I wanted to move to Tennessee where one of my best friends lives or just somewhere near there, like I just wanted to, I wanted, I didn’t have my family anymore, I didn’t have my husband. So I wanted to have the career. I ended up meeting my now husband, and we had gotten pregnant then. So I have a little boy, he’s now four. And now we have had to do we’ve had to deal together with secondary infertility, which to me is kind of like another loss. We suffered a miscarriage a year after our first was born. And then just going through the infertility was tough, and we learned a lot from each other. And it wasn’t perfect. We weren’t perfect in our stuff, I guess in our lives, like with how to deal with that infertility, secondary infertility, and then we ended up deciding to do IVF and now we are pregnant about halfways pregnant with our little girl. So life now I still Six years later, I still grieve my first husband, and I always will, I will always greet him, it’s just the way I grieve is a little different now. And I the way I like to what helps me is I like to help other people who’ve experienced the loss of someone and maybe it’s just me going out to lunch with them or having a conversation and not everyone wants that. But I reach out and if they want my friendship, then that’s fine. Um, I hate that they that we have that connection. But it is what it is in life is what it is. And that’s the way I guess I I have grown as a person is helping others with loss. So but now Yeah, I mean, I still grieve him Six years later, and I’ll grieve him for everyday for the rest of my life. But it’s just a little different now and I am happy. Um, but I still grieve him so
Victoria Volk 7:23
Well, and because grief doesn’t end because we still I mean, you loved him, obviously. And that doesn’t just go away, right? we grieve because we love and in being through going through grief recovery method, you know that grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations. And despite all the joy that you have in your life right now, it you know, um, can you speak to is it what might have been? What could have been? Or what was like, you know, these unexpected losses that you said occurred because of that loss? You know, the things that you experienced because of that loss? Can you speak to that a little bit?
Patti 8:16
Um, yeah, I just
Victoria Volk 8:18
Friendships that you love. Yeah, things like that.
Patti 8:20
I just think you when I just think like the loss of expectation. So you think that you’re not going to lose those friendships? Do you think that you expect things to go differently, like I did not expect to get married again, I did not expect to fall in love. But I was young. And that’s just what happened. And I’m so thankful. And I thank God every day for who I did fall in love with because he is so understanding of my whole journey with Jared and everything, like my first husband. So I’m very thankful for my husband now that he is truly understanding of that, and maybe he doesn’t understand it or, but he’s there and he supports me through it all. So I’m very thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 9:06
And that is huge, right? It’s he, I know in grief recovery, you learn to about being a heart with yours. So he sounds like he is that for you.
Patti 9:15
Is my heart with yours? Yes,
Victoria Volk 9:17
Yeah, that’s special. So what would you like to say to the world about or wish that people knew about your grief?
Patti 9:31
I like to tell people all the time, grieve, how you want it as long as you’re not hurting yourself or others. How long you want it I just feel like there should be no timeline on it. You can grieve as long as you want. grieve as short as you want. I just don’t think there’s any right or wrong answer, but I just don’t think that as a widow or someone who’s lost someone, like don’t let people tell you how to grieve and how long to grieve and I just remember feeling like I can’t sit at home and cry. I can’t be out in public and smiling and anyone be happy with that. So I was just going to do things for me. And I didn’t care what people thought, if I wanted to be happy that day, I was gonna be happy. If I wanted to cry, I was gonna cry, and I still have those days where I just want to cry, or I just want to be happy. So I call them my Jared days.
Victoria Volk 10:24
Well, and like grief, you know, this that just like going through the grief recovery method, having experienced it, it comes in waves, right? It’s gonna come and it’s gonna go. But the important thing I think our listeners hear is that you have not allowed these expectations placed on you by societal norms of, you know, we learn in grief recovery, that one of the myths of grief is Time heals all wounds. Right, you know, and I know that time just passes, it’s what you do, and the action that you take within that time. Now I know the relationship with your husband is not one that you have worked on through recovery yet. But, you know, once you go through this method, and as you know, you have these tools to use whenever at your disposal, what resonated with me early on in my healing journey and night, we kind of talked about it briefly before we started recording is that healing takes time. And investment in ourself, takes time. And we can get really busy in life, children, work, careers, jobs, husbands, you know, all these distractions pulling at us and, you know, screaming at us for their for their time, you know, I’ve got three kids and a husband, day job and a side hustle. And so it’s like, all these things. But there’s one thing that I’ve learned is that even if I take one hour a week, even just one hour a week to just read something that will inspire me, that will motivate me to reach my highest potential or dig a little deeper into what I’ve been feeling. Sometimes that’s all it takes to to create momentum and things and, and so are there any practices that you’ve been doing since grief recovery to help you keep that, at the top of your mind? Maybe it’s not necessarily priority right now, because you’ve had a lot of things that you’ve been, you know, have really been more of your focus, you know, with the, you know, a new baby, you’re growing a baby, like, that’s a lot of work. And, and it’s taxing on the body, too, right? It’s like it’s exhausting to grow baby. All you resonate mothers. And you already have a child a boy. And so I know there’s all these things in your life that take your time now, but is there anything that you could even if it’s just a micro thing, like something small? What is helping you on days where you’re having those Gera days, or when you’re feeling a little overwhelmed by life, or you’re feeling just emotionally taxed a little bit? Is there anything that you’re doing that is helping you on those days?
Patti 13:34
I know that maybe I’m doing it a different way than like reading something. But I think my way of doing it would be talking like having conversations, like deep conversations with people, and I’ve had quite a few lately, and I’m not really sure why. But my friends, they didn’t hear they didn’t know Jared, but they still ask me questions about it. Like, how did you feel like, what did you do? And they just listened to me, but they still, like want to know, too, you know, and I think for me, like, you guys really should get, you know, your life insurance figured out or like a will or something because you just never know. Like, we’re getting older and things happen. And it’s just life and it sucks. And you don’t want to think about that stuff. But we didn’t either when my husband passed away, so I think having those deep conversations, we have feeling conversations, like I’ve just been having a lot of that lately. Um, and then just like I drive a half hour on my way home, so I feel like I decompress and I’m like, Okay, my workday is over and now I need to focus on other things. So that half hour to work and, you know, on the way back, I feel like I get to reflect a lot and I get to reflect a lot by having these conversations with people. So that’s kind of my way, maybe not so much journaling or reading something, but just the deep conversations with people.
Victoria Volk 14:54
I just got body chills because that, yes, that totally resonates with me because I think in, specially in grief we get, like, it’s so easy for society just even in general to do have like the surface level conversations like, you know, talk about the weather. Yeah. Let’s talk about grief, like we talk about the weather and maybe I got to change that because that really brings to light like, well, I want to go when I say that, let’s talk about grief. Like we talked about the weather, it’s more like, let’s just make it a daily conversation. Let’s make it. Let’s make it part of the conversation, right? But when we actually just talk about the weather, we’re just really scratching the surface, right? It’s like, what lights you up? You know, if someone were to ask you that, like what lights you up? I know I if I I’ve asked some people that in my circle, they kind of look at me like I have two heads. You know, it’s like you kind of can see who you can have deep conversation with. Oh, yeah, I hear it. Yeah. And oftentimes, I find it’s people who have an awareness around what they’ve endured in their life and how it’s impacted their life. Both pilot
Patti 16:15
Might not even be like, serious, they might not even be like serious as losing someone but just like, even though I’ve lost a husband, I feel like I can relate to other people that were in my group that never actually like lost someone. Like I appreciate them more. Yeah, yeah, our grief is similar, but we can still talk about it. Like it’s the same but it’s not. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk 16:37
Well, it wouldn’t be right because every relationship is unique and individual and that’s the beautiful thing about deep conversation right is we can see things from a different perspective that is impossible for us to see it because we haven’t experienced it. So I really resonate when you say that like deep conversation really jazzes me to like it lights me up. Yeah,
Patti 17:01
I’d rather talk about it then journal it, I guess my hand gets tired.
Victoria Volk 17:06
But that’s a that’s an excellent tip, thank you for sharing that. I think that’s a really a really valid, useful point to make. And also to like, you know, 30 minutes and a commute. Like I travel a lot with my day job. I love podcasts. I love listening to podcasts during that time stuff that’s going to feed my brain stuff that’s going to motivate me or inspire me or you know, what encouraged me to strive for for just to be better and who I am and live my life more aligned with what I value and I think would you agree that kind of grief does that for us like it kind of just really it’s kind of like a it’s a reset button for our soul? Maybe it’s a reset button for for our lives in a lot of ways like on another interview we talked about how it just it’s it’s like this clarifier clarifies things so in what ways do you feel like your grief has clarified things for you in your life?
Patti 18:17
So sometimes I feel like people dot not that they take it for granted but they just don’t realize like, well and sometimes I catch myself too if I’m complaining like oh, my son’s being so naughty today like someone come take him. But then I think of the person who lost their four year old son and I’m like they don’t they wish they would have that. And so I think of that too. Like, I try not to complain like when I’m complaining I just like have to decompress and be like, okay, I don’t have it bad. Like, I can handle this people. Like I wish I could fight with Jared like I fight have fights with Barrett like. So I just try not to take some of that stuff for granted. And I like try and think like, okay, life really isn’t that bad. I’ve been through bad. And people other people have been through are going through worse things. And I should just be grateful and thankful for what I have in my life right now. Like I am very thankful that we got to go through IVF and we did get pregnant because it doesn’t always work for everyone. And I’m thankful for the way that that journeys been and led us and I’ve helped a lot of people because of that other women who are going through it other men who are going through it. So I just have to try and feel thankful for my time right now.
Victoria Volk 19:32
I just had an inspired that. Perhaps you have Barrett want to start a podcast.
Patti 19:41
I actually listened to infertility podcasts. And I love hearing other women but I don’t know I would rather them reach out to me it’s still like an unspoken thing. Like people. A lot of people don’t want to talk about it. Other people want love to talk about it. So it’s just like if I let the women come to me or the men come to me, so
Victoria Volk 19:59
That’s wonderful that you’re willing to share in that way because and also having you bring a unique perspective to that too. I think just because you’ve gone through grief recovery, and you have this, it’s not even inside knowledge. It’s just new knowledge, right?
Patti 20:19
It’s not talked about, like you don’t need people don’t talk about it. So other like women don’t know, like, if they just have a simple, like a simple thing wrong with their hormones or something, it might just be a pill they have to take, you know, and that’s not huge, but other people need more in their lives as far as the infertility side of it. So to me, it’s like if I can just get them to go to the doctor and see what’s wrong, it could be something so simple, you know, and then they could have that baby and things like that. I just want to be inspiring for people.
Victoria Volk 20:50
Well, you’re starting here on Instagram, actually, I just want to before I forget and before we get into some other conversation, but where can people find you where you’re sharing your story with infertility that where they can reach out to you where where can
Patti 21:06
I did start with Instagram because there are some people in my life that don’t don’t feel comfortable talking about IVF and infertility and they just don’t feel comfortable. So I started with Instagram, haven’t been updating it in a while. But my Facebook, my personal Facebook, too, like, if you want to message me on there, add me as a friend. I mean, I can tell if you’re fake or not so
Victoria Volk 21:28
But where where can people find you on Instagram then a journey to baby hair too journey to baby hair too and I’ll put it with a number twos. Number two, yeah, I will put that in the show notes. Okay. Okay, so let’s move on to what would be one tip that you would give other hurting hearts today.
Patti 21:56
Um, if you some people I feel like that I’ve known now since I’ve been become a widow. They maybe don’t need as much help, I guess outside help. But I thought the grm course was very good for me. And I’m glad that I found it but I was five years later, you know. But I feel like if you have a good support system, like find your support system, it doesn’t have to be family, it doesn’t have to, I don’t know, I just if you want to find other widows or maybe not, maybe they don’t want to have to be other widows or widowers, but just find someone to be able to talk to finds people who are supportive of everything you’re doing. That’s and then just don’t let anyone tell you how to grieve or how long to grieve because you’re going to do it at your own pace. And maybe you don’t want to grieve that long maybe you don’t want to feel the way you do so then you just need some extra support. So have a good support system. And I feel like the ladies that I actually took the class with they are gonna have a special place in my heart for the rest of my life so whether we don’t talk every day or we do you know, I haven’t talked to some of them in a long time. But I feel like I could just pick up the phone and call them and they would answer so I am thankful for that.
Victoria Volk 23:09
That was a very for those that don’t know or aren’t aware but yeah, it was my very first group and it was one it was just a really really good experience for me. I yeah, it was it meant everything to me and it really set the stage for the work that I’m doing and still continue to do and launching the podcast and just so thank you for sharing that because you help spread the message to that grief recovery is a valid option for people to move beyond loss and grief. So share with the listeners if you wouldn’t mind the relationship with someone living for example it wasn’t someone that you went you didn’t work on a relationship with someone living in the in the grief recovery group program when we went through with the other individuals but what do you feel like when you when you after you gone through that method and you were looking at the relationship with with the people living in your life? What do you feel like was one thing that you that came out of that like what did what was an awareness or something like how did going through grm connect the dots for you in other relationships I guess having not yet worked on those relationships.
Patti 24:29
So I’ve just learned like, I can forgive people and I can mend that relationship with myself in them but not necessarily them in person. But I I only allow them to hurt me so much. Now so like I put my family first my child first so I don’t let some of those living people around us not that I don’t let them around but I just only let them So much and I know how to now handle if our relationships like I understand now why my relationship with that living person is the way it is and how I can deal with it um there’s something called PS letters and I know that for the rest of my life I will have p s s s s s s s letters with that living person so
Victoria Volk 25:20
And so what it kind of sounds like to me is that you’ve really established where you needed boundaries for yourself and your family around that relationship around those people living your life would you agree? Yes, yeah.
Patti 25:36
I took responsibility for our relationship I guess well on my end that person needs to do the rest
Victoria Volk 25:43
Right yeah, we can only work on ourselves that’s all we have control over and and one way that we can protect our energy and protect our our hearts is to create those boundaries of you know, it’s just a buffer right create like this protective shield around ourselves and it’s not to keep them out. Right?
Patti 26:05
Right. But it’s not pushing them away.
Victoria Volk 26:08
Right. It’s to protect what’s inside us within that boundary including our loved ones right? Because doing that is actually a form of self care I I’ve learned that when we create boundaries for ourselves and for you know what matters to us. That is self care and action
Patti 26:29
And how to do that with quite a few relationships now and I believe grm helped with that so
Victoria Volk 26:34
Excellent. Yeah, cause you it’s an educational program you’ll learn so much
Patti 26:39
You focus more on the tools and like I thought it was going to be more on like, I had to sit there and talk about my relationship. No, it was more based on you gave us tools how to handle situations or things or relationships. So
Victoria Volk 26:52
Yep. And every day every every week actually is like a little puzzle piece right? kind of goes together. Did you see it coming? Like in the first two weeks, like were you like, what did I get myself into?
Patti 27:05
I know there was a few of us that were little like we pushed back a little bit in the first weeks because we were like, We want to see results now. But I think in the end we were all very happy with how it went. So
Victoria Volk 27:17
It takes takes time. And because there’s so much content, there’s so much information like our brains couldn’t even really like you know, my brain had to take it all in like a matter of days. But in the Grievers mind and a Grievers heart can’t just it’s that’s not for everybody it’s really not and so that’s why it’s broken down into little chunks of information to that builds every week kind of like algebra it’s like algebra builds up every week of you know every lesson after lesson but
Patti 27:50
And I just feel like anger is just like for me it was has always been a part of grief and I think I was like pushing back because I was angry I didn’t know why I was feeling that way and that class made me feel certain things that I didn’t know I was gonna feel and so I was just pushing back a little bit but then it all buffed out in the end so
Victoria Volk 28:11
Yep it really helped you to process the anger and stuff Yeah,
Patti 28:16
Gave me the tools to do that.
Victoria Volk 28:17
Is there anything else that you would like this is your opportunity your grieving voice to share is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners today?
Patti 28:27
Just that grief can come in many forms like in my situation I thought that this whole time you know is going to be about Jared and it was about someone living but it is about Jared too it’s about at all and I just learned that it’s crazy how we can grieve living people we can grieve people who are gone we you know it’s just I think everyone is going to grieve someone or something in their lives whether they actually lost them or not. So
Victoria Volk 28:55
So I just had a thought come to my mind which I think is very important that we bring up because you got to IVF because you had a miscarriage and miscarriage as you know through grief recovery is one of the most minimize losses Do you feel like I’m I’m it’s this is me and my curiosity and we’re just you know, this is on the cuff off the cuff but do you feel like the education that you receive through grief recovery had set you up to help you process that loss in particular that? Yes, I for your husband as well
Patti 29:35
Yeah, we grieved it differently and I think some people don’t think that the men grieve it this and we don’t grieve it the same but I feel like men they just don’t think that they grieve it like women do but my husband grieved the loss of that baby and we both did and we still do we still look at around town and think our child should be that age and running around with that kid and it’s it is hard and but We’ve grown as a couple and individuals and I think even though he didn’t take the class what I have talked about like he is also taken into heart and understands a little bit so yes
Victoria Volk 30:13
Yeah and you know because grief is cumulative as cumulatively negative I think I say this on every episode but it’s so important right because if you think about like all the losses that you’ve had and you know that during this work like we you look at every loss and put in front of you, you look at it literally look at it all it could be easy to just lay back on you know, just lay down in life and just give up and just like I can’t take another thing I cannot take another thing like it’s just you know, because it stacks up one after the other. Someone who has gone through a miscarriage. What do you feel like they can do? I know you mentioned about finding your support, which is amazing. But what is it about miscarriage in particular? Because I don’t have personal experience with that. I don’t. But what is something that if I came to you and I said that I had this miscarriage? What do you feel like is the best piece of advice that you could give me?
Patti 31:25
I would just be there for you right away, like how are you doing with it? And then if you want to talk about it, then I would be that you know, listening heart with yours. But I catch myself saying, Oh my gosh, they were that far along. Or you know, at least it wasn’t after the first trimester. Like I catch myself saying that and I’m like, but I miscarried in the first trimester. And I do feel like it was just as hard as losing us like a full term baby like, I still went through the labor I still miscarried my baby like I still. It was still a person it was even though I only miscarried. And I was like 12 I was 12 weeks, but the baby died earlier. Um, I don’t know. I just, I think you got to talk about it if you want and reach out to people who have miscarried because most likely, almost every woman has had a miscarriage like most women have, and you would never know, my grandma had like five of them. So just to I talked to her I just talked to her the other day about miscarriages like back in her day to like, they just didn’t talk about it. And you don’t have to, but if you need to, there is support out there. And my question like now that I’ve gone through IVF is why, why are you miscarrying you know, if you want to do that, like if you want to have another baby, I will be there for you. And I will answer any questions that you need, like how to get started about going to the doctor. It could just be something so simple, which is sad that you had to go through a miscarriage because of that, and I would never wish a miscarriage upon anyone, because it’s awful. Um, but just, I don’t know, don’t just blow it off. Like it’s just something little because it’s not even if he miscarried at six weeks, like it’s still a miscarriage.
Victoria Volk 33:19
Exactly. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I agree. A baby is a baby. Life. Do you feel like and I don’t know, like, Can you speak to this a little bit to like that part of the problem is maybe the fact maybe why it is one of the most minimize losses is because it is not talked about because it is such a, maybe it is because people do people have this feeling you think that is so common? Like it’s,
Patti 33:47
Well, it’s one in four, one and four is that like, that’s what they’re saying one in four. And for me, I tried minimizing it by saying, you know, it’s one in four, obviously, there was something wrong with it, it couldn’t grow anymore. So you know, it kind of is a blessing, but it’s still a loss. Like whether it’s a blessing or not like whether 94 year old person dies, and it was a blessing, it’s still a loss. A loss is a loss. And if you want to feel sad about that loss, whether they’re 94 years old, or six weeks in the womb, like I just think you got to feel it.
Victoria Volk 34:18
I think that is a great place to end. A loss is a loss. And you just got to feel it. I love that. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today, Patti, for sharing your story of loss of you know, being a widow, miscarriage IVF just the losses we can experience with those living in our lives, for sharing your experience through grief recovery, for sharing that with whomever you cross paths with in your daily life. It means the world to me to spread this message that there is hope that there is something there that can help Have you have a new perspective on grief? I think that’s really kind of what it comes down to is that it doesn’t have to define the rest of your life. It doesn’t have to be the driver of your life. I think you were doing wonderful things by sharing your story with people being a heart with yours for others. We need more of that definitely in our society. So thank you for being that for people and for being on the podcast today.
Patti 35:30
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 35:31
Absolutely. Again, I will have in the show notes where you can find Patti if you want to reach out to her on the topics of IVF being a widow or miscarriage, and until next time, much love Take care.
From my heart to yours, thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because Sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
