Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parenting, Podcast, solo episode |
Part I | Children’s Grief Awareness
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In light of November 16th being Children’s Grief Awareness Day, I recount my experience as a child griever in today’s episode.
Back in the ’80s, and still very much today, the topic of grief was uncomfortable and not something people openly shared their feelings about. Not to mention, the resources that exist today did not exist back then, leaving society to fend for itself and perpetuate the myths of grief I so often talk about: Don’t Feel Bad, Replace the Loss, Grieve Alone, Be Strong, Keep Busy, and Time Heals.
Growing up with grief poses many challenges for children, particularly with the loss of parents, safety, and security. The myths of grief have been ingrained in our society, and grieving children of the past, like myself, grow up passing those same myths down to their children. Hence, the cycle of grief misinformation continues. This is why I am so passionate about talking about grief because the cycle must be broken.
The more people who recognize they’re not forever broken or destined for a life of grief and instead learn new information and tools, the better off future generations will be – the better off our world will be.
I encourage all listeners to empathize with grieving children during this Children’s Grief Awareness Day. Reflect on the role you play in the life of a grieving child you know. If you want a child to feel safe in sharing, as an adult, you often have to go first in sharing.
Through this episode, you will also learn children’s common reactions to grief and more. In Part II, I will focus on an experience many children have today – divorced parents and navigating the holidays, especially if this is the first holiday without a loved one.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Hello, hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is that you are listening to this thank you for being here. If this is your first time listening, I hope you enjoy this episode. And if you find it helpful, I hope you share it or leave a five-star review if you feel like it’s beneficial information and if you walked away learning something, and if this is not your first time listening, thank you for tuning in again. And if you have not left a review yet for the podcast, I would greatly appreciate it.
Victoria Volk: Today, I wanna talk more about child grief because Thursday, November sixteenth is Children’s Grief Awareness Day. And I felt it was important just to share a little bit more on this topic for children’s grief awareness because I think, let’s say, if you lose your spouse or you lose your parent, right, if the child loses their grandparent, it can be really easy to kinda get wrapped up in your own emotions and your own feelings and thoughts and sadness. Right? And I certainly experienced this for myself as a child griever where there really wasn’t a lot of communication with me asking me as an eight-year-old how I felt about my dad’s passing or how I felt about not seeing him or essentially growing up without him.
Victoria Volk: There really wasn’t a whole lot of conversation directed at me and about how I was dealing with that devastating loss. He had been sick for several years colon cancer. I am currently the age that my dad was when he passed away. I’m forty-four years old. And I cannot imagine. He was sick for about two years before he passed. And by the time they caught it, it was or founded it was too late, but he hung on. And he put up the good fight, but I did have a lot of difficulty with that loss, both getting into my twenties, certainly as a teenager it’s not an easy time anyway, but my mother had I’ll say quickly because to me, as a kid, it’s seemed quick. Within two years, my mom was remarried and this new guy was in our life and he treated me well. There was no issue there. He wasn’t there a lot because he was a long-haul trucker.
Victoria Volk: And my childhood was just a really, like, full of extremes. Right? It was these really high highs and these really low lows. But there was more lows than there were highs because they didn’t have the best relationship. And of course, it’s really difficult to be married to someone who isn’t there a whole lot just in general. So anyway, my childhood and my teen years were just a really difficult time, and that was the best I could, and I found myself really trying to emotionally care take others I was often the emotional caretaker for my mom and for a lot of friends, like I was the shoulder that friends cried on, and I was happy to be the supportive friend, to be the friend that was there for everyone.
Victoria Volk: I’d been through a lot at that by my teen years, I had been through a lot and experienced a lot more than maybe some people I know that are my age now. And so I had to grow up fast I did. I had to grow up fast. And so I really don’t feel like I had much of a carefree childhood that children really do deserve. And so that’s really why I wanted to highlight this topic today because for me, Children Grief Awareness Day is all about the kids. So I just want you to listen and set aside whatever you’re experiencing, whatever sadness and grief and whatever you’re feeling about a loss that you’ve recently had, and you have a child that’s experiencing it alongside you. I want you to just set aside whatever you’re feeling and attempt to put yourself in the shoes of this child that you know or love. No end love. Maybe it’s your own child. Maybe it’s your grandchild. Maybe it is maybe you’re an older sibling and it’s a younger child in the family, that’s still at home because maybe you’re in your twenties and your sibling is like fifteen I don’t know, but I’m just the focus today, let’s put it on the children. And so as you’re listening to this episode, it is my hope that you walk away from this episode learning something.
Victoria Volk: So many of the normal and natural signs of grief are fairly obvious. And most of those signs would be the same for a child’s reaction to a death, divorce or some other type of loss. But let’s just say we’re talking about news about a death. Often, the immediate response learning of a death is a sense of, like, this numbness, which can last a different amount of time for each child. What usually lasts longer and is even more universe is a reduced ability to concentrate. And I can say that for me, as a child, if I would have gone to a therapist or a psychologist or what had you, which was not the case. My mom would have probably been told that I had ADHD. So other common reactions include major changes in eating and sleeping patterns. These patterns can alternate from one extreme to the other. Also typical is a roller coaster of emotional highs and lows. And these are not stages. They’re simply just some of the normal ways in which the body and the mind and especially the emotions respond to the overwhelmingly painful information that something out of the ordinary has occurred.
Victoria Volk: So going back to my personal experience as a child griever, and within the year of my dad’s passing, I know I mentioned this on the podcast before, but if you’ve never listened to an episode, I was molested and in going into my teen years. So when I say that my childhood was you know, not much of a childhood. I’m this is the context in which I’m speaking to that. So there was a lot of change and a lot of trauma in my early life. And I can tell you that I slept a lot. Most of the pictures I have of myself as a child are of me sleeping, sleeping in the middle of the living room, floor midday or before actually bedtime, falling asleep on my bed before a birthday party, which I completely miss because my mother felt the need to take a picture but not wake me up for the birthday party. And I was a tardy a lot with school. And I would always get an elementary school. It was like an n for needs improvement. I would always have an n for listens to and follows directions.
Victoria Volk: So again, comes back to this change in sleep patterns or inability to concentrate. And just really fidgety. Like, I just recall being very just very much in, like, my own la la land. But these reactions to a death are normal and typical. And even if there has been a long-term illness, like in the case of my dad, which may have included substantial time and opportunity to so unquote unquote prepare for that which would inevitably happen. We cannot repair ourselves or our children in advance for the emotional reaction to a death because we don’t understand the finality. We can’t even wrap our heads around the finality of that moment until it actually occurs.
Victoria Volk: If you’ve listened to any previous episodes, you’ve heard me say that grief isn’t just about physical death. There’s a much broader definition that encompasses all losses experiences, which I’ve shared before on this podcast. But if this is your first time listening, grief is the conflicting feelings caused by a change or an end in a familiar pattern of behavior. So, if you’re thinking about like these list of losses that include death of a pet, death of a grandparent, moving, divorce, divorce of a child’s parents, and death of a parent. Each of these losses represents a massive change or end from everything familiar. With death, the person or path that has always been. There is no longer there. With moving, the familiar place and surroundings are different. Divorce alters all of the routines in a child’s life. It often includes changes in living situations and separation from extended family, members and friends. All of these losses mentioned carry with them the obvious emotional impact that we can all imagine would affect children.
Victoria Volk: But our definition of grief includes the idea that there are conflicting feelings. If you’ve ever had a loved one who struggled for a long time with the terminal illness, you may have had some feelings of relief when that person died. The relief usually stems from the idea that your loved one is no longer in pain. At the same time, your heart may have felt broken because he or she was no longer here. So the conflicting feelings are relief and sadness. Moving also sets up conflicting feelings. We may miss some of the familiar things that we liked about the old house or the neighborhood. And at the same time really like some of the things about the new place.
Victoria Volk: Children are particularly affected by changes in locations, routines, and physical familiarity, death, divorce, and even moving or obvious losses, unless the parent or loss is having to do with health issues, a major change in the physical or mental health of a child or a parent can have dramatic impact on a child’s life. And even though children are not usually involved with financial matters, they can also be affected by major financial changes, positive or negative within their family. Society has identified more than forty life experiences that produce feelings of grief. And at the Grief Recovery Institute, they’ve expanded that list to include many of the loss experiences that are less concrete and difficult to measure such as loss of trust, loss of safety, and loss of control are the most prominent of the intangible but life altering experiences that affect children’s lives.
Victoria Volk: Intangible losses tend to be hidden and often do not surface until later in life through therapy and other self-examinations. I can tell you that that was certainly true for myself. I hope that this initial information is a good foundation that it helps you gain a better understanding of how grief just doesn’t impact you, but it impacts the children in your life in a lot of similar ways, but in a lot of different ways too.
Victoria Volk: I’m gonna make this a two-part series. Next week, I’m going to record and focus on children with divorce, experiencing their parents with divorce. Because we’re going into Thanksgiving and the holidays and things and with it being Children’s Grief Awareness Day. I’m just gonna make this a two-part and hopefully you can find some resources and support in moving into the holidays through these couple episodes. That’s the episode for today. I laid the foundation. Come back next week for where we’re gonna talk about divorce. And that impact on children and navigating all of that with the holidays. So I hope to have you back next week. And in the meantime, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Divorce, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Healing, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Spirituality, Where Are They Now? |
Phoebe Leona: Where Are They Now? | Magic in the Mess
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week, we catch up with previous Grieving Voices guest Phoebe Leona.
I had received a newsletter from Phoebe providing some updates that, I felt, would be a great episode to talk about the potential/impending loss of something she had built with love, sweat, tears, and probably plenty of finances, too.
Sometimes to grow and evolve, we need to close one door so another may open. Little did I expect that as this episode goes live, I feel we could record a third episode – stay tuned…
Back to this episode; this is for you if you are feeling stuck in a mess and having difficulty feeling the magic of the situation and your experience. As Phoebe shares in this episode: “When it is meant for you, you cannot mess it up.”
Be a fly on the wall of this conversation about growth, hard transitions, finding love again, and perhaps more importantly…finding yourself and the magic while in the mess. Or, as I like to say: the thick of the ick.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m so happy that you’ve pushed play on this episode. And today is a where are they now episode. And I’m following up with my previous guest Phoebe Leona, where we originally had our episode. The first episode were recorded, went live on March twenty-ninth twenty twenty-two. It’s episode ninety two. And it’s titled, I’m only grieving Fridays. And it was all about her experience of losing her father and how that was the catalyst for all of the change that she described in that episode. And now we’re back for Phoebe 3.0 because there’s been a lot of change in transition and a new evolution to Phoebe’s life that I came across because of her newsletter. If you don’t know, when people become guests on my podcast, I often tried to keep up with them and whether that’s on social media or their newsletter or I think a lot of my guests become friends. And so And I’ve always been the person that, like, loves to, where are they now? Right? Like, the eighties pop stars of the one-hit wonders. I’ve always looking up, like, wonder what happened to them, you know. So today is the I wonder what happened with Phoebe. So here she is ladies and gentlemen. TV, what brings you to the podcast? Actually, I asked you to come back on the podcast. So let’s get that great. But I would love to have you share with me what has transpired since we last recorded.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me back, Victoria. It’s such a joy to be with you, and I was before we press record, we were thinking about when was it that we sat together. And I think also, since then, you came on my podcast, so that’s where I was getting my dates confused. Where are they now? Where is Phoebe Leona now? Before, I think you said March twenty twenty-two. So my book did come out. We did talk a bit about that and how is about to be burzed out into the world. So the book was launched April fourth, twenty twenty two. So it’s been officially out for more than a year now. And it’s my little baby. It’s out in the world doing its thing. I did a bit of a book tour. It was on many podcasts. I also created this live experience called the rating experience where I brought together because when I and I don’t know if I talked about this that day, but when I was called to write the book, I knew it wasn’t just going to be a book, I knew it was something that was multidimensional.
Phoebe Leona: So with the medium of having dance being a primary part of my life and also was part of the book too because I talk about how dance really saved me and was a huge healing modality for me as I was going through all of the trauma and all of the grief throughout my childhood and my adulthood when I was dealing with the loss of my father and my divorce. So I wanted to bring that element to life. So I created this thing called Radian Experience, where it was a book reading essentially, but I was also dancing and I also had a friend who’s palette who brought some of the letters that I write to the emotions. She wrote she read them. Out as a poem as I danced, and we had a painter painting live behind me on a beautiful canvas and a sound healer. Creating a soundscape for everybody to be in that space with me those moments of my childhood, those moments of grief, and my adulthood. So that was a really powerful experience and we’re playing around with what more we can do with that. What else has happened with dear radiant one, my little baby, was nominated for best spiritual memoir by own times. Just recently, which I’m very excited about. Yeah. Very excited about.
Phoebe Leona: Thank you. And like I said, I’m just letting it do its thing. And I did talk a bit about my company, NoMad, which was birth from all of that grief of twenty thirteen when I went through everything. I always let NoMad guide me and I follow the breadcrumbs to where what it wanted to do next. And that’s how I feel with all of my creations, including Dear Radian one of, okay, I gave birth it. I put up my heart and soul into it. And now what does it want to become now that it’s out into this world? So I’m sure there’s going to be maybe another 4.0 version.
Victoria Volk: Guaranteed.
Phoebe Leona: That I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea what that will look like, but I’m that’s why I love what I do because I just lean into that mystery of what it wants to it’s a true co-creation. And I love having that space and that deep trust for the creation to just whisper to me or maybe shout at me if I’m not really listening. To say, okay, this is what needs to happen now. And yeah.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So because you brought up co creation and I hear a lot of intuitive vibes in what you’re talking about. Can you share with people how you tapped into that personally and any advice that you would give to others to who may not be getting the message. And then what is that not getting the message play out like in real life. Right?
Phoebe Leona: Oh, I’m getting massive chills in my body. So this is a very good question, and I think we could dig deep into this. So intuition, everybody’s born with us, this idea of intuition. We have these clear abilities. And clairvoyance is one that I think a lot of people know to be, you know, the mediums or the psychics and they have visions. And we don’t necessarily need to tap into it and identify as a medium or a psychic. But we have these clear abilities, which means that we are able to sense the unseen world and have communication with our souls, desire, our guides, our angels, whatever you wanna identify with. I’m not going to label them for you. You can choose if you align with that or not. But there is some sort of sense. So when you just spoke to me, I got chills in my body. So this is a clearability of clear sentence.
Phoebe Leona: So my physical body is giving me or an emotional body as well was giving me signs like, oh, yes, lean into this. When you do meditations and you and you visualize, right, when somebody guides you through a visualization and you can actually see what your future could look like or where that scenario that person is guiding you to or maybe you just do it on your own. That is you tapping into that clairvoyance. So you can dive in deeper and do some research if this is a new idea too. But when we have these abilities to tapping to the unseen world. This is the tapping on the shoulder. Listen, this might be something here you. This is your yes. This is your no. This is that gut instinct. Right? We have even in our vocabulary of I just knew it in my gut. Right? Or you know
Victoria Volk: Spidey sense.
Phoebe Leona: Spidey sense. Right? We have this nomenclature for it in our worlds. And this is really us tapping into our intuition. Now my personal story with intuition was and I might have spoken about this when we sat down the last time I was super intuitive. I had this ability to sense the energy in my space changing that made me afraid to really use my intuition because what I thought was I was creating the scenarios. So my father being, you know, dealing with his PTSD, he would go into flashbacks, and I would actually sense the energy change when he was triggered. So before he physically acted it out in our worlds, in our reality that we were sharing, I felt it. And so when I felt that energy and then I saw it play out in my physical world, I thought, oh my god, I’m crazy, and this is a curse. So I share that because some people might not have had that dramatic story, but they might have had a conditioning. Right? A lot of times as children, we’re being conditioned to not feel these intuitive spider senses, as you said.
Phoebe Leona: We might feel very emotional because we’re in a situation that is unsafe, but our parents said, oh, that you shouldn’t be acting out right now. You can’t act your fears out or your anxiety out right now, so we had to clamp down on these emotions that are part of our intuition as well as children. So there is that looking at it as possibly that it was a curse or maybe it was just programmed out of you.
Phoebe Leona: And so I think it’s really important to know that it’s not a bad thing if you don’t know how to tap into your intuition. This might just be part of your story. And so if you’re curious to be more intuitive and lean into it, there are ways of getting there. And a lot of the work that I do with the somatic work, if that’s a word that nobody knows out there, it’s really just being in the body, it’s being embodied. Being able to tap into your physical body, the sensations that I said, the emotions that are coming through, not just getting lost in your head because a lot of times in our head. It’s, you know, not really truly in our reality. That’s not really our intuition. The messages that come through intuition are usually down in our heart space. And these messages come through as a very like, whenever I feel them come through, it’s just one word or a short phrase, and it’s usually like a heartbeat or like a metronome, like, yes, yes, you got this, might feel like a mantra to me. It is that gut sense. Right? It is that just you feel it in your body. If it’s all up in your head and it’s, oh, like, the squirrel cut, like, the dog and the squirrel. Like, the dog is just, oh, scroll there. Scroll there. Right? If that’s what your mind is doing or you’re getting on cancer, we’ll have all of these different thoughts. That’s not usually your intuition. Right? That’s you just kind of up there letting,
Victoria Volk: Anxiety.
Phoebe Leona: Anxiety. Yeah. Anxiety.
Victoria Volk: Stress,
Phoebe Leona: Ego, Fear, all of it run the show. So I feel that when we can start to really drop down into just listening not needing to know the answer, and that’s what I think happens a lot is something feels uncomfortable. How do we fix it? Right? Let me look at all the things and let me write out the to do list and let me take a class or look at YouTube or Google it and find, go outside of myself. To find the answer. But when we really can just drop down, take a few breaths, understand again, maybe tap into your clear abilities if you know what they are or work on focusing on how to strengthen those. And listen to what’s coming through, whether it is that visualization or whether it is that feeling in your body or whether it is maybe a sound, maybe there is an audio message that you receive or a sound, like sometimes I have ringing in my ears. So there are a lot of ways to listen to your intuition.
Victoria Volk: Repetitive numbers, signs, those two.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. The Angel numbers I see Angel numbers all the time, like, the seven sevens are always in my world.
Victoria Volk: Actually, I had two podcast episodes, recent ones back to back that were the exact same time. Oh, both episodes. And I’m like, oh my gosh. Did I upload the wrong episode? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: At the end on that today? Oh,
Victoria Volk: Oh,
Victoria Volk: So how did all of this play into the version of yourself that you’re stepping into now?
Phoene Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I’ve closed a business. I know I know what that process is like and it’s heart wrenching. Yeah. It’s painfully. It’s a painful awareness because you know how much blood sweat and tears you poured into something.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I’ll just say, from my own perspective, what I’ve come to know is that everything is just a stepping stone.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I didn’t fail in that business. You know, when I closed it, people I know people thought people even asked me, oh, we couldn’t make it or whatever because where I live and what I was charging or what have you and a lot of ego thoughts I had and myself too, but really it was I had to close that door for something else to come in.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I wrote my book, and then I started another business that wasn’t the right business. And I had a one chance off conversation with friend who I was working with, and she’s like, you know, for this one business, for my website. And she’s like, you wrote a book, didn’t you, about grief? I’m like, yeah, why aren’t you helping people in their grief? And I was like, Okay. Captain obvious. Good question. And so it was a question. You know, we can’t see the label from inside the jar, and so that one conversation has landed me talking to you again for a second time. It’s you know, so we have these moments in our lives that are truly transformative. Are what do they call those moments? What do they call it? A moment that changes everything.
Phoebe Leona: Like a pivotal.
Victoria Volk: Like a pivotal
Victoria Volk: Yeah. — pivotal point.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what happened? It’s changed. And how did that come to be?
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Okay. I feel like I wanna go back again because I didn’t fully answer your other question. So I wanna finish that, which will feed into that. And I also wanna bring other people up to speed because they didn’t talk too much about that part of what shifted for me in terms of nomad. So in terms of the intuition, what you had asked me is, what would it look like if you don’t listen to it? And that leads us into this question really.
Victoria Volk: Right.
Phoebe Leona: It’s basically I like to think of it as this child Right? You’re the mom or the father of a child saying, hey, like, just tapping on your shoulder. Like, hey, I need a little attention here. That’s your intuition going, hey, this might not be the best thing to do or go for it or whatever. And if you’re not listening to it, it gets louder and louder and louder until it’s like full on temper tantrum. So in the external world, that looks like, oh, there’s a challenge. Now we don’t sometimes we go, okay, I’m ready to step into this challenge or I’m going to ignore the challenge. Right? We make our choices there. But if it’s I don’t wanna call it the wrong choice. But if it’s the choice that our intuition is guiding us because it knows. Right? It’s our higher self. It’s our soul. It can see your life from a bird’s eye view, and it kinda comes back down into this reality. And it’s like, oh, that’s a good move. Oh, that’s not a good move. Right? So it’s understanding, learning how to trust it. And so that little child that’s tugging on you is going, go this direction. Go that direction. Right? Because you can see that bird’s eye view. But if you don’t listen to it, yes, more challenges, more obstacles come up, and it turns into that temper tantrum.
Phoebe Leona: So where I am with NoMad, that’s the company that I started because of the year of grief. I wanted to have power back because in that year, January, my father died. March, my husband of fifteen years, said, I wanna end our marriage. That started the domino effect of losing my home, my dog, my physical health was at stake because of all the stress. And then the one thing that was still there that I had was my job that wasn’t filling my soul at all. And it was a choice that I had made because of these other two people that were no longer in my life And so that was the one thing that I said, I wanna have control over this. I want to live in alignment with my soul’s purpose, which was to really create a space for people to have a sense of belonging and purpose. And what are the two things that I did at the time while I hot yoga, that was the modality, and I wanted to travel more. So we started NoMad from this place of wanting to feel empowered in my life again and have these other aspects of myself be, you know, fueled again. So I started a retreat-based business. That’s what NoMad was.
Phoebe Leona: And as I said at the very beginning with Dear Radiant, why don’t I just kind of when I create something, I follow the breadcrumbs. So Nomad has been not just a retreat based business where I taught yoga was the modality, but it’s evolved into another modality that I created, a somatic practice called Movement one o nine, that was one of the bread crumbs. It turned into local community events where we had two hundred people at the summer solstice bring coming together in my Hudson Valley community here in New York, it turned into me leading yoga teacher trainings. It also turned into having to go online when we’ve all went into lockdown and figuring that part of the world out. So it evbed and flowed and morphed and shape-shifted in so many different ways. And I just leaned in and they said, okay, what do you wanna do now, baby? Now when I started it, the other aspect that I wanted in that part was I just had this vision that it was going to be with my partner. Like, didn’t have a partner. But I said, if you build it, he will come.
Phoebe Leona: And he did it. I mean, I had a couple of relationships that it could have potentially turned into that, but they all fell apart. Because I was still going through my own grief am I, you know, recovering from my trauma. So a lot of those relationships as beautiful as they were, they triggered a lot, and they got me to evolve further by leaving them and then doing the inner work.
Phoebe Leona: So here I am almost ten years, I guess it’s we’ll be celebrating nine years this year of NoMad, still no partner, letting it kind of morph into things, but I’ve also taken all these other branches, like Movement one o nine, like my book, Dear Radiant One, which can fit under the umbrella of NoMad, but I was noticing that my community was under the umbrella of just NoMad was getting smaller and smaller. And I just could’ve, like, you know, like, square peg triangle or whatever that scene is, a square peg, round hole, whatever. I was just like, oh, no. Just oh, this is all, NoMad. But now I think that there’s something within what I’ve created there and I don’t quite know what it is yet. I don’t know if it’s a book.
I don’t know if it’s Movement one o nine. It might be a combination of both. It might be something completely new. I said in the I think I said in the email that you read. I’m sort of mushy. I’m in the chrysalis. So I’m just letting it morph into what it wants to become right now. But I am also grieving. Right? Here we are talking about our grieving hearts. I’m grieving because it is my baby. I put my hot blood, sweat, love, heart, soul, tears into it. And I’m kind of like, was that a waste of time? And it isn’t. Yeah. Absolutely not. And I really resonate with what you were saying about other people saying, you didn’t make it or you failed. And I don’t feel that. I feel I feel frustrated because I want Nomad to I want I see no I always see my creations as little babies. I’m like, I want my baby to see this world and really be the vision that we had together. So I’m letting go of that idea of NoMad might not get to do the things that we had envisioned together. So yeah. I’m hearing I’m getting a little teary. I didn’t show up. But I do have a deep sense of trust that something else is being born, and I just I have absolutely no idea what it is. And I have a feeling just sitting here talking to you right now, Victoria, that magic is happening.
Victoria Volk: I got full body goosebumps like I if you could see my chicken zips right now.
Phoebe Leona: You’re chicken. I love it. Yeah. I mean, it might just be and I invite this for anybody out there listening. It might just be that you would you just spark something within me hearing your words. That an idea will come out whether it’s just I walk away from that and go, oh, actually, there’s some insight that I hadn’t seen yet. You’re a mirror for me. It might be that you and I are gonna get off of this and go, oh, wait, what about this and this and this and we collaborate or you connect me with somebody or there might be somebody listening here and go don’t let Nomad, go to bed. I love what you’re doing. Did they reach out to me or somebody else, you know, is inspired by our conversation and they go make a big life shift? Right? It doesn’t have to be related directly to me. It might be that somebody out there listening is going, oh, I’m going to listen to my intuition and yes, I need to leave that romantic relationship or that job or maybe it’s time for me to take the leap and make that new step into what I most desire. So who knows what universe is doing right now as you and I are speaking.
Victori Volk: We’re cocreating magic.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. We’re cocreating magic right now, and the magic happens within the grief. Mhmm. It has to,
Victoria Volk: and I think because of it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. I just got chills again.
Victoria Volk: Let’s just talk this out then.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So what was the dream or is the dream that you had for so long? When you started NoMad?
Phoebe Leona: It was it was providing a space for people who were making transitions in their life. Because I had just gone through and was still going through it. Right? That year of grief, that year of great loss, that year of stepping into the unknown. And as I was doing it, a lot of people were applauding me saying, wow, you made a huge leap.
Phoebe Leona: And I didn’t see it as that. I saw it as, wow, I just got jot down. And I’m taking this one little thing where I might have some power and I was claiming it back. And I didn’t see myself as any sort of hero and that I was just trying to survive, but people were applauding me in that sense of wow, I wish I could do something like that. And I thought, you can, why not? You know, it came sick in nature to me, but I also know that that came from a lot of, you know, I know you had a similar childhood like having to deal with so much chaos. Chaos. Exactly that you don’t know that you didn’t know you don’t realize you had a choice. Right? It’s just like, yeah. This is just what my phase. You just keep going and roll with the punches. So when I started to see that something that came somewhat second nature to me doesn’t come for other people, I thought, well, what if I provide a space what if I take them out of their ordinary life, bring them to a retreats, yes, they get to see somewhere beautiful and you know, have beautiful food and make connections and see parts of the world that maybe they never had seen before, but also see parts of themselves that they had never seen before and tap into this new not a new version I shouldn’t say that, but this version of themselves that they hadn’t really tapped into in this reality or maybe this time and space. Right? Maybe they knew that was a part of them and they lost it along the way. But tap back into that and say you do have the power. If you’re in a toxic relationship, you have the power to leave it. If you are not living in alignment with your soul’s purse purpose. You can leave the job or you can make a big move, you know, physically across the world or whatever it is. It might also be really small and subtle but it changes your whole internal landscape. So that was the vision. And like I said, when you and I say this a lot of my teaching when you know your why, when you’re so aligned with your purpose. The Whats? Doesn’t matter. So, yeah, use the what of the retreats, but the “why” that creating space for people to have that greater sense of belonging so that they could make those transitions in their life was my why and has it has been my heartbeat these whole years since then. And so, yeah, the what is wants to be something new right now, and don’t know what that is.
Victoria Volk: You missed a question though.
Phoebe Leona: How how how how in terms of what how what
Victoria Volk: How do you envision it looking?
Phoebe Leona: Well, I think that’s where maybe that’s a good thing or maybe it’s a bad thing. I don’t have, like, specific visions of how I want it to look. I envision it as this is why I’m showing up in the world. And I trust that universal provide the how and the what. And maybe that is my downfall. And maybe you’re giving me some insight as to get clear focus, baby?
Victoria Volk: Because this is the thing. It’s like we’re always co-creating or always manifesting, but the universe doesn’t know what to manifest or co-create or bring to you. Yes. You’re not clear on the how.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. Story of my life, I think, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: Well, here’s the thing. So, like, I mean, I’m not intending to turn this into, like, some sort of, like, coaching session or anything.
Phoebe Leona: No. I love I get pre therapy today?
Victoria Volk: Here’s the things. When I think of you and when I think about everything that you’ve talked about and shared with me, in the audience, I feel like you’re a very grounding presence for people. Right? So, like, when people are around you and you have these retreats, feel like you are very grounding for them.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But Phoebe grounded, how do you fly? Who encourages you and who is the person or what is it, what elements in your life are not, some people need accountability Some people just need a cheerleader. Some people need someone to challenge them. So I think so often too, like, especially helpers they have a hard time asking for help. Mhmm. And so am I am I nailing
Phoebe Leona: Oh, for sure.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah. We got this. Yeah. And I mean, I know you want there was an aspect that you and I talked before, we press record that we’re gonna go to right now is this idea of love in my life. And That has been a huge game changer for me because, yes, going through so much chaos in my childhood alone, I did not know how to ask for help. And going through it again in twenty thirteen, it was the universe going, you need to ask for help Phoebe. And I did. I had to lean in to my family. I had to lean in to some people even strangers because I went to live in Costa Rica for a period of time and didn’t fluently speak Spanish, so I had to rely on strangers to help me. So it’s been a lesson the last nine years of ass asking for help, but still what you just saw, what you just reflected back of the ground in this, that was me going, I need to survive. I need to be really grounded here and not only because I’m a helper, like you said, and on hold space for other people, but I need to provide that for myself. And it was a little bit of survival mode. Right? Or a lot of survival mode. It was just holding on for dear life of okay. Gotta get my shit together.
Victoria Volk: Sols. Can I ask you? Yeah. They don’t mean to interject, but I just because so, like, it feels like because I know for me too, like, I had this grip or this hold. Right? On something, like, this is my identity. Right? Like, this is my identity. This is who I am. This is, you know, what who am I without this?
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel like the only way to find out if that is where you want to continue to go as if just letting it go, like, backing away for a time.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I’m I think I’m in that, that’s why I’m in the chrysalis because it’s the that’s that mushy part. Right? When you’re in the crystal, well, from the little caterpillars in the chrysalis. Maybe we’re in the chrysalis too right now, who knows? But when we’re physically in that idea of the chrysalis, you become mushy. Right? You so you have to have that deep surrender, but at some point, right, when it’s making that shift to become the butterfly, there is the resistance. Mhmm. Like, it has to press out to create the wings. So there is this play between the deep surrender and that resistance of becoming the something new. And that’s really where I’m at right now of letting go of that identity. No man was my identity. For, you know, almost nine years now. And it is letting that go but there’s a there has to be a bit of resistance of like, okay. Well, how do you wanna see the next vision, right, and create that? And so that is, I’m not taking it as a cop out, but I am they I’m figuring out what the how is
Victoria Volk: The “How” that’s where we came back to is the “how”.
Phoebe Leona: Is the how because I’m kind of like, well, I was this for, you know, nine years. That’s all I knew to a certain extent because I was so had the death grip. Like, of Nomad and even though it’s letting it up and flow, but there was this has to survive because it was me proving to the world that I can do this I survived that horrible year and look what came from it, and I’m gonna use it. And you universe is telling me, like, you’re good. You’re so alive. You got this. You don’t have to just be in survival note mode now. You can actually thrive and spread your wings and fly. But I’m not quite there yet because I’m thinking, well, what is that gonna look like? And I guess maybe I’ll find out because the butterfly is not looking, maybe it is, and the, like, wings, like, oh, look at those colors. I’m not sure. Bright and then it just flies and it’s like, oh, okay. I’m crying. So I’m in that exploring process and there’s a little bit of playing with ideas, but also not being attached to them right now and seeing what what comes out of it. But I do wanna answer a little bit more, go a little deeper into this idea of the partner because I did have this vision of my partner is going to come in. But I had somewhat rules and regulation of what he was going to look like and be like because he was going to play a large role in my business, in my vision of them. And it’s really interesting because I’ve been completely single for six years now. Here I am doing my thing. I’m writing a book. I’m doing no mood or a pandemic. I’m still standing. And there were just all these challenges that came. Right? Everybody, I’m not saying I’m not doing a woe’s knee. Everybody has been gone through letting go of the old normal, right, going into that lockdown. There was a deep sense of grief during that period and letting go of your old identities, get letting go of old relationships, jobs, whatever. So I was in that at that time too and trying to figure out what NoMad wanted to be. And like I said, though, that was really when I was doing the square peg round hole and figuring out, well, let’s try to do online. You know, programs or membership or, you know, one on ones. And I was just, like, figuring out what it wasn’t. It just didn’t translate in the way of really being in person with people. And so, you know, the finances were not coming in, I was not receiving the abundance that made it not only thriving but not sustainable. I invested a lot in my book. You know, I did a hybrid publishing, which I am grateful for. I have really love the team of Grace Point, but it was a huge investment that I probably didn’t have, but I just going, it’s gonna pay off. It’s gonna pay off. And because I believe in myself and I even this morning, I was crying about that, my eyes are probably still a little puffy. And here I am about the the brink of letting go of my business and possibly declaring bankruptcy from putting my heart and soul in finances into it and steps in literally out of nowhere this man who just I met him and he’s my person. Like, there’s no doubt about it. And it’s it’s really quite beautiful how it happened because it somebody matched us up who I’ve known for twenty years and she’s known him his entire life since she was five years old. And just out of the blue said, hey, you two should meet. And it’s really quite beautiful.
Phoebe Leona: So I think that I did manifest the how of Nomad, but it also wants to become something completely new and different. And so maybe he’s stepping in because he does have a lot of similarities in terms of strengths that I don’t have that could really be a beautiful combination of what I envisioned originally. He even came to me with this vision that I didn’t put into his head. He said, I think we should do retreats together down the line. We need to do this. So it might turn into Nomad 2.0 after we reestablish our personal relationship and build that business or it might be that we need to co-create something completely new together. I’m not sure yet. And this is the first time I’m, like, publicly talking about this.
Victoria Volk: Well, I got my chicken zits again when you were talking about it. So it feels like truth to me.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of wild. So
Victoria Volk: Is that crazy? I mean, just sit just for a moment. Like, just I mean, we don’t do this enough. Like, just really reflect back. Like, life is crazy. Like, you just cannot anticipate the amazingness that can happen. Right? We don’t It’s like you will you think when you’re in the thick of the icky? The thick of the neck. And you’re in the thick of the neck. You can’t even fathom that there can be brighter days ahead. Yeah. You know, I had a client, one of my first clients, actually, after they became certified as a grief specialist, his life has just exploded. I worked with him for a time. He went through grief recovery with me and stuff. And, you know, at the time, like, his he was struggling in relationships and trying to get his business going and he’s a designer. He does — Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Now he’s into purses. He designs purses. Ended up on the red carpet. He’s, like, on the own network, the Detroit oh, love in Detroit or something like that? Remember the show. It’s a reality show. Like, it’s just crazy. How his life has just exploded. And he said in a post, he said something to the effect of, imagine living each day. You think today is the best day. But imagine if even tomorrow is better. Like, you have no idea. Yeah. Like live like tomorrow is gonna be even better.
Phoebe Leona: I love that. I’m I think this episode is called full-bodied chills.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. That’s good.
Phoebe Leona: Because I just kept getting chills as you’re speaking about this.
Victoria Volk: Okay. Well, there is a true crime podcast called Full Body Chills.
Phoebe Leona: Okay.
Phoebe Leona: You might have to call you know what? Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: Play around with that because you and I just keep balancing our what did you call chicken zips? Chicken zips.
Victoria Volk Yeah. Chicken zips of truth.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, sure.
Victoria Volk: People would be like, chicken zips of truth. Why? I gotta listen to that one. Yeah. Maybe that’s a go.
Phoebe Leona: There we go. That’ll stop them in their tracks.
Victoria Volk: So what I hear is that you are very curious and excited about not knowing what’s to come in a way. Yeah. And yet surrendering to the how and just letting it unfold. But yet, at the same time, this is where I think, you know, you are a very grown in presence and maybe this gentleman that it’s come into your life, like who’s kind of been under your nose. Right? Like, because he was with the he was he’s a friend of a friend. Mhmm. Had you met him before?
Phoebe Leona: No. Never lived with me. We have so she was a Pilates client of mine here twenty years ago, and I knew her socially too. She even came to my wedding. So I had been to a couple of her parties, and so we have looked back and said, were you at that party? Were you at the upper end? We don’t quite know yet because of this so long ago. But, yes, very much under under each other’s nose. But we weren’t ready yet. And that’s something that I wanna speak into too is
Victoria Volk: Yes. Please.
Phoebe Leona: When when you are ready, the universe makes it so clear and says, get this is it. This is you’re ready now. Right? Here you go. Like, your client. Your client had to go through all of that grief and he was trying, he was showing up and doing his work. Like, ugh. And then all of a sudden, it just clicked. And now his purses on red carpets. And I swear I truly believe in that. And I’ve I have seen that in my own personal life. I’ve seen that evidence in the external world and everybody else in other people’s lives that when it’s meant to be for you, you cannot mess it up. It is just there. And that’s how I felt for this relationship. It was just we were not ready for each other and we’ve had many conversations because he’s done a lot of work on himself if he’s done, you know, he’s a life coaches while he wrote a book too. And it’s even funny when we see that our books, our covers, our same coloring, like, same kind of branding, very similar format. He shares a lot of his own childhood trauma and, yeah, maybe a guest for you, by the way. But yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So it’s just so funny because we’re laughing at each other. Like, we’ve been walking side by side but just weren’t we weren’t ready for each other yet. We weren’t ready for the relationship that we both want wanted for so many years, but we weren’t emotionally ready for it yet. We had to recover through the trauma to a certain extent and our own grief so that we could be ready. Right? He if I had met him six years ago when I had my last relationship, he would have been triggering all my traumas right and left, and I would have said goodbye, just like I did to the other two, man. And so I had to do this in our work for it to show up. And I say that because it doesn’t have to be a romantic relationship. It’s whatever you desire right now. It will show up when you have to do the work, though. That kinda like, it’s that balance of the doing and the being. Right? Because I think that in our world, we get too much in one direction. It’s the very western world of just do do do and have the strategy and check the things off the list. And, yeah, if you hustle and hustle, I played that game for so long and so many things didn’t happen in that world for me because I wasn’t allowing there that to be that surrender into that being. But on the flip side of that, if we’re just, you know, love attraction, I believe in it. I truly believe in it. But if you just do that and kinda lean back and not do any of the work, the thing isn’t really going to be truly yours. I mean, you might see it but if you’re not actually showing up and doing the inner work, going through your grief, going through recovering from your trauma, whatever it is that’s your karma and your dharma. Right? Karma is the lessons we enter into this world and the dharma as you shifted into your purpose. If you’re not actually playing with those two, yeah, those things might come on your radar and you might not see really truly see them or they might just float on by because they’re not you’re not aligned with them yet. So it is that play of the doing and the being?
Victoria Volk: You said something, and I’m gonna say, I’m I had a client, she asked me, Everyone else says you have to do the work. I’d get so annoyed when I’d hear that. Do the work. You gotta do the work. Well, what’s the work? And after she went through a group recovery with me, she’s like, I get it now. This is the work. Like, this is the work. So in your mind, what is the work?
Phoebe Leona: That’s a good question. For me, it’s awareness. I really truly believe awareness is the transformation. Now awareness can look different for people. So awareness might be that you need to be aware of your three d reality? Like, what is actually physically happening in your relationship? Or what is happening in your bank account? Or what is happening in this toxic situation at your job? Right? But also, it’s awareness of what’s happening in your mind, what’s happening in your physical body. How can you listen again to the spidey sense. Right? When you’re in those external relationships with the world and your body’s going, uh-uh, right, you have to bring your awareness to that so that you tap into that intuition. That’s really what I see the work is just being able to listen So it’s kind of funny that to do the work is actually sitting back and listening. That’s step one is that listening and the awareness, but then there is the, okay, now I need to take action from that place. Right? So maybe I do need to get a job that’s going to help you pay the bills or maybe I do need to leave that relationship or maybe we need to go see a relationship therapist. Or whatever it is, it’s actually taking the action and doing the work physically doing the work. And then there is the surrender., of okay, letting go and saying this isn’t working or I deeply trust that it is working, but I don’t see that. Evidence yet. Right? So that’s level three, step three of the work. I’m sure there are others, but those are the three that I feel are necessary in everything as I just talking off the cuff.
Victoria Volk: I love it.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I love it. I love this conversation. And I wanna give you an opportunity. To share anything else that you would like to share?
Phoebe Leona: Let me think. I feel we should yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about grief because that is your podcast. Mhmm. And to know if somebody is out there right now who is grieving a relationship or grieving possibly the loss of their own business or whoever they are right now to allow yourself to simply be in that chrysalis. Allow yourself to get mushy. Allow yourself to I love what you at you pressed me to do is imagine the how or the what or the whatever it is that drives you. Right? It could be the how, it could be the why, it could be the what. But whatever it is that’s gonna just be your heartbeat for a little while. Right? If you’re in that grief space and you don’t know what is to come, find some sort of heartbeat for you that’s gonna get you up every morning and really build a relationship with physical support in your life Right? It might be one person, it might be a community, but then also what has really been a huge piece for me is trusting the divine, the universe, God, guides, angels. Whatever it is that you resonate with whatever word resonates with you and energy that resonates with you in that end unseen world because there is and energy. There are many energies around us that we don’t see and maybe not feel, but they are here and they are on our side and they are flying high above us, seeing a bird’s eye view. And I was in a session, if I don’t mind if you don’t mind me sharing really quickly I was in a, like, a call with some a group yesterday, and you probably have heard this. And I feel like, actually, now I’m saying that you might have even spoken about it, but the idea of the two footprints, two sets of footprints talking to God and saying God, why weren’t you there for me? There were times that I only saw one footprint and I was walking in a long loan, and God said that was because I was carrying you.
Victoria Volk: It’s a footprints in the sand. It’s actually
Phoebe Leona: Footprints in the sand. Yeah. And I just wanna remind everybody because that’s something that I needed to remember for myself is when we’re going through those moments of grief. There is someone carrying us even in those deepest darkest moments, in those mushy moments, in those messy moments. There is something here for us and to just deeply trust and find a way to build that relationship to trust again.
Victoria Volk: And someone is caring. Mhmm. And I think that’s what a lot of people forget. It’s like there are people that care you just have to allow yourself to be cared for.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that’s a hard one for us, helpers.
Victoria Volk: True. Yeah. It is. What a beautiful way to tie up this episode, I think. Where can people find you now if they’d like to reach out to you and connect with you?
Phoebe leona: That is an interesting question, Victoria. I’m not sure where I’m going. Social media, I’ll just say first of all, social media I’m on Instagram it’s my name @phoebeleona.love and Facebook. And then I do have my website, so I would say right now, they could go to phoebeleona.com that’s where you can generally see what I’m physically doing in the world. Then I have my thenomadcollective.org and Movement 109. Those are also websites, but they’re all linked together. Who knows if they’ll be there in a couple of months? Maybe they got, you know, floated away. Maybe they’re coming back in a bigger way. We don’t know yet. But if you find my name Phoebe Leona, you’ll find what’s happening now. And I think that’s a great way to, like, What is that girl doing? Let’s see.
Victoria Volk: We might have a Where are they now? Three. Yeah. Maybe in a year.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah. And I just wanna acknowledge you too because, you know, what you just said of being cared for is you did respond to that it was, you know, somewhat desperate email of, like, I don’t know what’s happening guys. Let’s see. And you were one of, you know, a few that responded immediately and I saw that you cared, and I know that you care so deeply for the people that you help. And the listeners that you show up for. So I just I wanna take a moment to acknowledge that. So thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Sometimes I need that reminder too, and I’m looking at her clothes. Yeah. Yeah. Since this is my labor of love, For sure.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But it’s been a great joy. And that’s why I continue doing it. You know, it doesn’t put food on my table, but it fills my heart. It’s my soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Mhmm. Exactly.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Find your soul food people. Find your soul food.
Phoebe Leona: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Alright. Well, thank you so much for joining me again. On kind of short notice, like, this was like, hey, wanna come back? Yeah. Let’s do it. Alright. I love that.
Phoebe Leona: You know, we had to do it while it was still mushy because, yeah, it wouldn’t have been that exciting if I was. Everything’s fine now. You know, hindsight.
Victoria Volk: I mean, that’s the beautiful thing behind you. Right? But when you’re in the thick of the ick. Right? The thick of the ick. And it’s not it it doesn’t have to be it doesn’t have to be this negative bad energy. Right? That we like, this drudge of it certainly, it doesn’t feel good. Yeah. But with for all the reasons that you said, it’s like lean into the awareness. How is this making me feel? What do I wanna see for myself in the future? What do I want for my life? Yeah. You know, these deeper questions that we are so afraid to ask ourselves Yeah. You know, one of my favorite segments on Saturday Night Live was deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: I mean, I was, like, ten, eleven, twelve, you know. Oh, wow. Because I’m aging myself now. This is when Saturday nightlife was, like, really good. But Yeah. But yeah.
Will Ferrell, deep thoughts by Jack Handy.
Phoebe Leona: Was it I don’t think it was Will Ferrell. It was before Will Ferrell’s time. It was because I actually met him in a certain week already. No. It was before Will Farrell.
It was oh my god. I know who it is, but he’s not in my brain right now.
Victoria Volk: I thought it was the same guy that was played Bob Ross.
Phoebe Leona: It was Al Franklin.
Victoria Volk: Oh, yeah. Are you sure?
Phoebe Leona: Now that I said, and I’m afraid I am wrong, but hold on, Okay. We’re good we’re gonna fact-check.
Victoria Volk: I’m you know, I have a saying, like, with my friends. I’m like, I’m gonna get a t-shirt that says, Google that shit.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. I think it was before Will Ferrell’s time. And I do feel I see his face. And Al Franklin was on Saturday Night Live? Yes.
Victoria Volk: Phil Hartman.
Phoebe Leona: Phil Hartman. What’s? Okay we both we both lost
Victoria Volk: Wait. No. Deep okay. Well, Jack Handy was an actual person. Learn something new today.
Phoebe Leona: That makes sense.
Phoebe Leona: Yeah. Yeah.
Phoebe Leona: So they made affirmations before is, like, a big thing in our world at which I thought those.
Victoria Volk: Okay. It looks like I have to do some writing.
Phoebe Leona: You’re gonna have to fact-check and do a follow-up for the listeners here.
Victoria Volk: I see a connection between Phil Hartman and that’s segment, but I can’t like, I would have to do some reading. Yeah. Anyway, I will find it. Anyway, I digress. Have a beautiful rest of your day, and listeners, thank you for tuning in. And I hope this episode was helpful. And if it was, I hope you share it or leave a review, five stars if you feel so inclined. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, LGBTQ+, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Podcast, Where Are They Now? |
Jordan Brodie: Where Are They Now? | Redefining Success & Grief with Best Friend and Brother Loss
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This “Where Are They Now?” episode with Jordan is a follow-up to the first conversation we recorded on 01/19/2021. Jordan’s first episode went live as episode 44 on 4/27/2021. You may want to check out that episode first, then come back to this follow-up episode.
In this follow-up episode, Jordan shares about the devastating loss of his older brother to a fentanyl overdose only a week after we recorded his first episode. In the time since, Jordan has been able to maintain his sobriety. However, in this episode, he goes into more depth on the impact the loss of his best friend, followed by the loss of his brother, had on him – and his sobriety.
Sobriety aside, Jordan also shares how his spiritual beliefs have been shaped by the loss of his best friend, Chase, and his older brother, Josh. And what he looks forward to in the future. Jordan is currently traveling Europe after living in Los Angeles for 11 years. He shares how leaving the glitz, glam, and city life has offered him the opportunity and experience of a lifetime. And maybe, for the first time, the time and space to discover how he wishes to define what success means to him moving forward.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today is a Where Are They Now episode. And it is a follow-up with a guest who I originally spoke to on January 19th, 2021, Jordan Brodie. And his episode went live on April 27th, 2021. It is episode 44. And it is titled Growing Up Gay, CODA, and with Addiction. And so if you haven’t listened to that episode you might wanna check that one out first and then come back to this one but I am so excited to catch up with Brodie. There has been a lot going on in his life since then. And also, actually, the week after we spoke, his brother had died of an overdose. And so that is where we will start today. But first of all, Jordan, thank you so much for being here. And you’re all the way over in France. So thank you so much for joining me from France. And I love the idea of following up with people after a couple years and because if I’m wondering how you’ve been, what’s what you’ve been up to, what’s changed in your life, I’m sure other people are too, And so thank you so much for taking the time to catch us all up.
Jordan Brodie: That’s so nice. You’re welcome. Thank you. Victoria, and so grateful to be back here today. So much has happened since Chase Guy. And even after that podcast, we recorded eight days after my older brother died. And, God, I think speaking with you, and, like, having been prepared from losing my best friend. It really helps me, I think, because Joshua’s death, my older brother was even more difficult for me emotionally. And Chase is definitely very difficult. I think, kind of, like, having this platform to tell my story I think it really helped my grieving process. And I just wanna thank you because it really did help me to talk about it right away. It really did. I don’t I think I really think I breathed well, and I’m still grieving. Chase and Josh and another’s losses in my life. Like, it’s a continuous thing, I think society prepares us to get things. Like, we’re in a consumer capitalistic society where we’re, you know, get get get we want this, we want that, we want new things, we want a new dog, a new puppy, a new bike, a new car, a new house, a new boyfriend, a new girlfriend. We always want new things. We gotta get that new iPhone every year. Our society doesn’t teach people how to lose things in a proper and healthy way. And you know, when some when you lose something, a lot of times people are like, oh, well, don’t worry. You can get another one. And that really invalidates the emotions. I’ve learned it’s not good to say that to people don’t say, oh, well, you can get a new cat, you can get a new dog. It invalidates the emotions. And also, I don’t like even people offer me, like, tissues or phoenix when I’m crying. Like, I don’t like being blocked. I want to just let it flow because I think it’s healthy. We have such a shame around crying and and losing things. But it’s a part of life. It’s inevitable getting on here here with you. It was about two years ago really helped me, like, with my grieving process because if I keep things bottled in, I go crazy. I really do, and I need to talk about what’s going on with me. And everyone does, not just on a podcast. We don’t just need to be on a podcast to talk to people who can talk to our friends, our family, our therapists, but I think it’s important to talk to someone and He really helped me, so thank you.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing that because I really had no idea. I mean, I know we had kinda just talked over social media a little bit after I had heard that your brother had passed, but I had no idea. Those are the very things that we talk about in the program Do Grief Differently. Like, you know, when I try and educate people, like, don’t hand a tissue, you know, that stops someone from crying and so just the fact that you’ve re you remembered those things and that you found them helpful and you’re probably actually helping other people too and educate dating other people along the way in the past two years just based on what you’ve learned in our first conversation.
Jordan Brodie: Yeah, I really hope so. I really hope to be just a light inspiration by being vulnerable on social media, on the Internet, on YouTube, in public with people just being open and honest and authentic. I really hope it helps others, and I know it helps others. I’ve had people say, they look up to me. I do know I have people that looked up to me and I’m really grateful for that. It used to make me feel uncomfortable, but I’ve worked through my impostor syndrome and I think everyone, not just me, everyone can help anyone with their story. We all have a story to tell. You, Victoria, have a story to tell. All the listeners on here have a story to tell, and it’s important and it’s valid. And it doesn’t matter if you’re just a grocery store clerk or you’re just a farm Boy or you just you’re just a high schooler with no extracurricular activities or you are the football player or whatever you are, you have a story. Everyone has a story. It doesn’t matter who it is. You don’t have to be a royalty, a rich person, born into a rich family, a celebrity. It’s not just the celebrities that have stories to tell. It’s the little Joe’s and Bob’s and Dina’s and Susie’s in the middle of America, in the middle of Europe and then in middle of France. Everyone has a story and I love your podcast because you do interview everyone. It’s not just celebrities, it’s not just these people, it’s normal average job people dealing with free and everyone deals with Green in their life and it’s something we need to talk about. I don’t think any topic should be taboo. In this world because we’re all human. We all go through the same feelings and emotions and desires maybe different ways. But why should any topic be taboo or shameful when everyone is experiencing that?
Victoria Volk: In church recently, the priest had shared, we should not hide our wounds. When we hide our wounds and we don’t talk about our wounds, they kill us.
Jordan Brodie: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And that speaks to what you’ve just been sharing.
Jordan Brodie: It’s very, very true. So since Josh and Chase died, by the way, Joshua’s death very difficult, and he actually died from the same death as Chase, a similar death. It was a fentanyl overdose. I don’t know the exact details about Chase, and I don’t even really know the exact details about Josh, but I know that he had COVID and had been isolated for two weeks, and then relapsed and it was an overdose on fentanyl. I did similar thing with Chase with Chase. I was like, how can I give service to his mother, like and being of service throughout Chase’s death process, like, after he died and asking his mother, like, how can I help? Like, I love Chase so much. Like, how can I help? She asked for help putting together his because it was during COVID, his Zoom memorial service for friends and family because COVID, we could she couldn’t have a big open funeral. It was only close family members, no friends. So I did that. I put together, I found a pastor, to run the services. And I got the made invitations. I invited a bunch of people. Like, It is really hard to do, but it helps me stay focused and help me stay safe. I had some friends donate money to pay the pastor because he was on Zoom and he was a friend from the Unitarian University of Church. We did this service. It was a beautiful service. I think I sing and my other friend saying and read a poem and it was very beautiful. Chase would have loved it because Chase was an artist, he was an actor, he was a performer, I still think about him. He’s still a superhero to me. He was obsessed with SpiderMan. When the new SpiderMan movie, came out. It was on I think it was on Joshua’s birthday. Josh’s birthday was February 18th, and he died from January 27th. It was somewhere around his birthday that the new SpiderMan movie came out and Chase was obsessed with SpiderMan. Chase where he had all these furnishings with him. It was kinda silly. It was like an adult child that became this part of that. But I would just the message of that SpiderMan movie. I don’t know if you saw it. Let’s just see the new SpiderMan. It was I don’t wanna ruin too much of the story for but for those who saw it that are listening, there was a message of forgiveness to those who have done you wrong. Because it’s a long story, but I don’t wanna ruin the plot, but there was a character in the movie who hurt SpiderMan. And SpiderMan had a choice to be to he had a choice to make. And he would have done something wrong if he wouldn’t have chosen to forgive And the thing about Chase and Josh is they go back from a fentanyl addiction, which drug dealers are lacing drugs of fentanyl. So I was angry. Like, at drug dealers, when Chase moved to LA, he was a very handsome he was very handsome and fellow people all the actor agents said he looked like the next action cooker. Sorry, handsome. And everyone just so many old guys came around promising him fame and fortune and I’ll be your agent. A lot of them just fed him drugs and got him high and took advantage of him. Like, it’s true. And it happens to so many people that move to LA. So many people I’ve seen it happen. I’ve been I was in LA for eleven years, and I saw so many people get chewed up and spit out And I’m so sad that she’s happened to be one of them. I luckily kind of avoided that. I avoided the drug part because I already got it up that out of my system in high school, but Chase fell into that. All these old gross men I was always so I was so protective of Chase. I mean, I knew him since I was eight years old. And I had a big crush on him. I didn’t realize that he was kind of my high school crush, but he only liked older thighs and I wasn’t necessarily as type. And I think we were both kind of afraid of each other in that way. I’m afraid of intimacy and being hurt and I was afraid to be honest with him about how a truly felt for him, and that was one of my biggest regrets. When she died. I was always so angry with Chase. I was like, Chase, why are you hanging out with this guy? You just want to fuck you. You just want systems like, oh, yeah. That he helps me with my scripts when I have auditioned. And I was like, I can help you with this script. Someone else can, but this guy is not confused. There were so many of these to be fair, like, one of these guys that I’m talking talking about, I don’t wanna say his name. He like, two years ago. He’s a really fit a popular agent in LA. And he literally got me tuned and canceled, and that he actually died from cancer, like, a few months ago, this guy in particular. And I was always like, Chase, why are you hanging out with this guy? Like, he’s not promising you anything. He’s just using you. He’s getting you high. He’s leading you on. And, you know, this is good. To share because I heard of the superficiality of LA. I’m tired of seeing it. It was so heartbreaking to me. And all these influencers, all these people are coming every day, every year, and falling from this trap. And so many people get caught into drug addiction. Think about the amount of famous people you know with drug problems that, like, goes spiraling down. For every famous person, there’s probably like ten thousand not famous people who never make it, who die from an overdose in LA because they get stuck in that whole trap. It’s really dark. And messed up. And I think people should know, like, when they move to LA to have boundaries and not lose their backbone, like, keep your morals and your standards or you will get lost. Like, I got lost. Thank god. I got back on track. Chase actually helped me get back on track. He was my eskymo of I went to anonymous twelve step programs at first to support Chase. And then I stuck with it. And now, yeah, I have six years sober. I’ll have seven years on January thirteenth. So help me God. But
Victoria Volk: Congratulations.
Jordan Brodie: Thank you. It’s just really heartbreaking and I’m tired of seeing people just fall into this superficial chase of fame and fortune. I have different dreams now. I still want I still desire to be famous for my music and well-known or successful and be paid from my art and my music. Fame represents success for me as an artist. But I don’t it’s not if I’m making a living as an artist or even if I am still making art, but I have all my needs met, like I have a home, a place to live, food to eat, As long as I’m doing music recording, I don’t care if a thousand people are listening or not. I just want to have a place to sleep some food to eat and be doing music. And I realize I don’t like big cities. I feel anxious in big cities. So I’m actually traveling Europe right now. I’ve been in Europe almost for two and a half months doing work away. I’m traveling right now around the world. I’m gonna probably be doing this for, like, a year or two. Until I figure out where I wanna live. Getting European citizenship to my grandmother. She’s born in Estonia. It’s not guaranteed, but we’re starting the process to apply for my citizenship. And, yeah, I love Europe. I’m loving it. And I feel like Chase and Josh are with me and but, yeah, for everyone that’s planning on moving to LA or New York, any big city. It doesn’t matter. Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, London. All these major cities have huge drug problems. So it’s really important to stick with your morals and ethics and your backbones. Like, wherever you’re going, think about find a role model from your childhood, like, maybe it’s a grandpa, like, or someone that you really admire that has good qualities of integrity and service and love. They don’t have to be perfect. My grandpa and some of my role models are not perfect. They have mistakes. They’ve had flaws. But I admire their good qualities, and I aspire to be like them finding role models in my recovery has been what’s helped me. And I think going back to the SpiderMan thing, that’s what Chase’s well one of his role models was SpiderMan because he was he’s such a positive hero. Like, I think he’s such a great world model. And when I watched that movie, God, I’d boggled so hard in the theater. But Like I said, the moral of that story was forgiveness to those who have done you wrong and hurt you. If you watch it, you will know what I mean. You will see this message. It’s pretty clear. And it’s exactly like, I was so mad about Chase, like, I blamed basically any old gay guy. This sounds really brief is a seductive kind of messed up it can put some messed up voices in your head, like my ego. And any, like, older gay guy, I was just angry at. I was, like, everyone’s a predator. I hate all of you guys. Like, just so many people I was so mad at, and I was blaming all these people and it was really hard. I was so angry at everyone. I was just angry at the world, like, for just being not understanding of my friend and not respecting his humanity because he was a very handsome person and just so many people, like, threw themselves at him and try to take advantage of him and I was just, like, always there on this side, like, supporting him with my love, and I was, of course, hoping one day. Well, no. I appreciate him as a friend and I was content with their friendship, but I really was and love on him. Looking back at it, I was very much in love with him. Like, I was too disassociated for my own addictions. To know that it was, like, what I was for. Like, he was always when I went in high school, I had a big crush on him, I had a huge crush on him. He’s so charismatic. He’s so funny. He’s so handsome. And I had a big crush on him. And then I always did, and he knew it. Like, he liked older guys.
Victoria Volk: How do you honor his life today?
Jordan Brodie: As I’m traveling, going to things like that SpiderMan movie is very helpful. I got to see Demi Lovato perform at Avida, like, the week before I left for Europe. And Chase was the biggest Demi Lovato fan. Like, I wasn’t that I love Demi, but, like, I’m not, like, I’m not obsessed. Like, she’s not my diva. I love her. I love her music. I’m obsessed. That like, I do love her. Okay? But Chase was obsessed. Like, the biggest demi lovato fan. So I felt like he was there with me and, like, he was so happy and like, I just felt him there. And then I just feel his energy a lot, and I talked sometimes I’ll reach out to his mother, see how she’s doing. We talked on social media a lot, and she’s just really supportive of me. And I know she still misses him a lot. And Chase was very, like, he was, like, very risk-taking, very adventurous. It’s on my list of things to do to go skydiving with some of his friends, like, in Chase’s memory because Chase was such a risk-taker. So I wanna get some of his friends and I wanna go skydiving because I am so scared of how it’s and like, Yolo and his memory. Like, I wanna jump for him and, like and then I and then I worked my program my recovery programs and my sobriety honors him. Like, I feel like when he died, I don’t know if I talked about this in the podcast, but I I didn’t handle it the best when it came to my recovery in some of my behaviors because I still, like, I acted out like, sexually, like, to, like, cope with the emotions I was experiencing. And like, because I’m an addict, but I’m not just, like, a drug addict, an alcoholic. Like, I also struggle with sex addiction, and love addiction and emotional anorexia. When Chase died, I just I kinda I relapsed. I really did. I don’t I didn’t talk about this. When we did the interview, but I did relapse, like, when he died. And it took me, like, a week or two, like, get back on track, and that was really hard. Like but when Josh died, I think since that had already happened, I didn’t relapse when Josh died. I was ready. I was prepared. And so that was really hard. And my sex and love addiction is still very difficult. I do still get really lonely. And I have a lot of pain, like, anxiety, emotional pain, and I think it’s good not to latch onto someone when you’re grieving or you’re sad, but it wasn’t ready for that. Like, no one prepares you to lose your best friend or, like, to lose your older brother, like, I had never experienced any significant loss like that in my life. It was the first. So I was not ready for that at all. At all. Like, I wasn’t that close with my grandpa. When he died, I was, like, it wasn’t that big of a deal for me. I mean, he’s a grandpa. He’s older. You know? It’s part of life. And he was kinda angry towards the end of his life. So I was kind of relieved for him because he had cancer and he was in a lot of pain. It wasn’t very nice to me. My little brother’s, and I didn’t, like, carry through to my little brother’s. So when he passed, I was a little bit relieved for his pain because I knew he was in a better place. He was in so much pain. Presented his life. And I don’t know. But Chase, like, I thought he was doing good. Like, he had just gotten six months sober. And Yeah. I still really miss him a lot. And honestly, like, I was really delusional about their dads like, I don’t know, like, last January. I was this January, I was, like, oh my gosh. It’s almost been a year. I was texting my stepmom. I was like, it’s almost been a year since Josh died. And she was like, Jordan, it’s been two years. Like, that’s how, like, disassociated I’ve been when it comes to my brother and she it’s, like, I was still in denial about his death for a really long time. Like and I’m still a little bit in denial. About it. Like, I really am. Like, I delusionally, I’m a fantasy addict, so I live in fantasy. I live in my head a lot. And I escape into these fantasies of being all these different characters. It’s something that I do. It’s kinda crazy, but it’s normal for artists. Like, I guess, a lot of us do this, you know. Like, Nicki Minaj has her personal. Awesome. I have mine. I’m just not as vocal about it. It’s all in my head, but I escape into fantasies of them still being here. Like a lot of the times, which I don’t think is very healthy. No one prepared me for this. Like, having this platform being able to talk to you also, my recovery community, I do gratitude list every morning. Doing that gratitude every morning when Josh was when after Josh died and after Chase died, really helped me keep, like, a glimmer of light and hope as that dark period went. And I don’t wanna say, but my sponsor in one of my recovery programs was, like, one of the first people I called when I found out Josh Knight. And he was the first person I called. And he, like, helps me, like and so many people helped me. And, you know, it’s really important to know that shit’s gonna happen in life. People are gonna die. And there’s gonna be people there for you. Like, no matter what, like, and it’s important to let them help you. My best friends all kind of, like, kidnapped me too, like, when they found out Chase and Josh die. They kind of just, like, kidnapped me and, like, took me. Like, and, like, I stayed with them in Orange County. For a few days. Unless all my friends came around me, I’m so lucky. I have really good friends. And Yeah. But it’s really hard. Gosh. I was not expecting to cry like this. I guess because, like, doing work away, so I’m how I’m doing Europe is I am doing work away, so it’s an exchange. I’m here at this house that’s on a farm in Normandy, France. And ex and the guy who owns it’s a single gay guy. And in exchange for a house, to stay and food to eat. I help him twenty hours a week with whatever he wants. Like, I help to make a costume, like a gay he has some of that this weekend, so I may help them make a gay alien custom. And I helped him. We’ve I’ve they have been weeding. I help cook. I help with this animals, like, clean up donkey poo. Each job is different. I was in Switzerland before this for three weeks, and that was I was, like, an assistant to the housewife. I was, like, picking up the kids from school tutoring, and the first one was similar to this. So but these last three days, it’s really scary. Out of my element, these last three days have been hard for my sex and love and mix gen, I guess. Like so I think that might be why I’m crying a little bit because I just didn’t reminded how difficult it was, and I really I relapsed when Chase died. And I know it’s pretty common. A lot of people relapse in recovery programs when a loved one dies. Or they break this is why it suggested not to get in a relationship the first year of recovery. It’s not a requirement. It’s a suggestion because it cannot get iteration or end up get out because significant changes in our emotions. We use drugs in alcohol effects, our addictive patterns to numb our pain and our sadness. So if we shift things and we experience big changes, the chances as of us relapsing before we have the right tools are higher. So Yeah.
Victoria Volk: May I ask
Jordan Brodie: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: May I ask if so how long have you been doing work away? When did you leave the US?
Jordan Brodie: Oh, the end of March. So March, like, 29th, and I started my first position, like, April second.
Victoria Volk: Do you feel as though I mean, because It’s one thing to, like, leave your home country for a couple weeks and knowing you’re coming back and knowing when you’re coming back. But in doing work away and having the intention that you’re gonna do it at least a year, maybe even two years, and being away from you know, it’s one thing to, you know, we have the devices. We can stay connected in that way. But to not physically be in proximity to those we love and our family and our friends and things like that. I’m just asking, do you feel like potentially a part of this resurfacing for you is just the fact that you are away from your home. You are you’re I mean, this is a huge change. If you think about it, I mean, this is a huge change. You’re you’re plopping yourself in
Jordan Brodie: That’s a good question. That’s a good question. And I think that might be some of it. But the thing is I don’t feel like I actually miss anyone. It’s kinda weird. Like, I miss people. I would love to see my friends, my family, like, if they showed up or if I went and visited them, I would be elated. I’d be so happy and excited to see them. But I don’t feel like a yearning for them. I might go, it’d be nice to see them. I feel like I don’t I’m just having so much fun. Like, it’s so exciting for me. I’ve never been to Europe. So I’m so excited. I’m so inspired. And also, I’ve been in LA for eleven years, and my mother lives in Montana. All my loved ones live in New Mexico and Montana. And then I have friend all over the country and the world that I grew up with, so I’m always missing someone. Like, at what I have a really big family and they live all over. Like, I’m always missing someone. I’m used to this feeling because I’m kinda spread out a little bit thin. It’s, like, the perks of having a lot of people you love in your life. Like, I have a big family a lot of friends. I have a big community around me of people in real life. It’s not just social media, like most of my friends and family and loved ones have a large majority of people that don’t even use social media. So, like, I just always missing someone. So I’m used to this. So the truth is, yes, I do think that’s part of it, but I thoroughly enjoyed the host here, and I’m here with two other workawaiters. And I go out on walks a lot I pray a lot and meditate. I do outreach calls all day long with fellows and thank god for technology. Like, you’re out North Dakota. I’m here in France and we’re able to talk. I’ve been able to call my friends in LA. New York, in New Mexico, like, I’ve been able to call people still and FaceTime them. It’s not the same as personal connection, but I get that from them. I guess I’m a little bit lonely and the fact is, like, I think also Chase served he wasn’t my brother. He wasn’t family. Josh was my family. It’s different. I didn’t have, like, romantic feelings for Josh. It’s for my older brother, you know. I didn’t he was my brother, we were blood, and but chase, I kinda had some intimate romantic feelings, and I didn’t really fully understand that until he died. And it’s really sad. I think it’s really sad that I didn’t know. Because, like, I knew I liked him and I was kind of obsessed with him. I didn’t know they were those in feelings until he died and I felt those feelings. I think that’s why I relapsed. When Chase died and my sexual live addiction is because I didn’t know how to handle those feelings. That feeling of loss, that feeling of grief. I’ve had a few other, like, guys, like, people that I’ve had these really intense feelings for, like, since Chase died. And it’s weird because I feel like having him die kinda gave me permission to, like, move on. I guess, I’ve spread myself out too thin emotionally and sexually because of my past as a sex worker, because of my promiscuity, emotionally, I was a little bit of an emotional horror. Like, just my emotions are all spread out all over the world. So, like, having Chase died, like, kinda help me reel it in. My emotions I have better boundaries now. I don’t hoard or myself anymore, emotionally. I don’t I don’t I tried to I’m way more conservative than I thought I was, like, emotionally and sexually. Like and it’s new to me, but she’s gonna help me with that. And, yeah, I’ve been able to forgive those guys that I mentioned that I was mad at because of Chase’s death. I kinda blamed them certain characters in West Hollywood that I know was I really angry at? And they’re still doing the same shit. These old older men that work in the industry having these parties, inviting all these young new gays, giving them drugs, giving them alcohol, telling them they’ll do this, they’ll do the app, but they really just wanna get laid. It’s still happening. The same people are still doing the same shit. As eleven years ago when I moved away. This same shit. It’s not different. And I’m like, how do these people sleep that night. But I don’t think they’re fully aware of what they’re doing. It’s kinda like if they knew they knew and they would stop doing it. But it takes two sides. So so but I’ve been able to forgive them. Like, you know, I don’t and I’m leave I’ve left LA It’s a new experience for me. I do wonder am I escaping? Am I doing escapism by being out here? But I’m really enjoying Europe. I don’t plan to, like, move here and get a house here and, like, be here. But I plan to go back LA. But back to New York, back to New Mexico to my parents, back to Montana, I still plan to stay connected to America. I’m always gonna be an American Like, even if I get my Estonian citizenship and I so, like, I don’t know.But yeah. I think I am feeling a little bit lonely. But last night, I made a friend. I made friends with this local girl. She was really nice. And I’ll go to Paris in two weeks and see one of my friends, and there’s a big recovery convention that week. So I’ll see people that I’m only, like, three hour train ride from Paris right now. So it’s pretty cool.
Victoria Volk: Do you think a part of this too could be a little bit of being ready maybe to settle down? Maybe just wanting someone to share this experience with?
Jordan Brodie: Definitely. I was talking about this last night with someone. Okay. I so part of this too, I thought that it’s so funny because Miley Cyrus on Flowers came out on my sobriety birthday, which is January 13th, like, the album was released. And my it’s, you know, the the theme of the song itself, love, like, a renaissance flower was I can grab my name and the saying a quote directly from Chase. He always told me this. He’s like Jordan, God provides music always at the exact right time when they need it. Like, that was Chase’s little quote. That was one of his quotes that he always told me, and he always said if it’s not nice, don’t say it at all. And he would always tell me that because I was kind of more of a bitch than he was. It was always very, like, snarky and he and saying these things. And he was like, my mom always taught me. It’s that nice, don’t say it at all. So he kind of has this consciousness need to, like, be a nicer person. Anyway, So it to me, it was God. It was Chase. It was, like, music. Also, on the year so on so his death was December 27th, I think, or December 1st. December 1st. It was the day of the Equinox when the bright star, the north star, whatever was brightest. So in some ways, I’m like, chaste must have been like Jesus or something because he died on that day. What a great day to go out was the day that the whole world did that international meditation together. Everyone did it. He died that night. The North Star was the brightest. So I think it’s a beautiful night to pass. The energy was amazing. And okay. So a year later on the year of his passing a year prior. It was either the week before or the week after a few weeks. Tim Petris, one of my other favorite pop stars put out a song called Coconuts, which Coconuts, you know, it’s like it’s tropical themed in the middle of winter. So random. She’s the queen of, like, putting things out at random times. Chase and I, five years before he died, We were very silly together and played together. He wrote a song. We wrote a song together called Coconuts. Chase and I did. It was just a joking stupid song. We were obsessed with coconuts. We were like, anything coconut, coconut oil. It’s good for your skin. It tastes good. It’s good for cooking. It’s good as lube for seg. Like, you can do anything with coconuts. You can eat it. You can do anything with coconuts. So so the fact that that song came out like near during a year from his passing was God to me. I was like, Chase is on the other side manipulating shit. Kim Petress has put out a song called Coconuts. And that song is really stupid. It’s a dumb pop song about her boobs, basically, coconuts, Mac, coconuts, it’s, like, totally random, which is also chases humor too. So to me, it was God, like, that song is spiritual to me. It’s funny because everyone’s like, oh, this is a dumb pop song. But that song is spiritual for me. Like, whenever I hear that song, I it’s like, god speaking to me. And then similar things like on Josh’s birthday this year, pink put out her single to her next album, trustful, the song closed, your eyes, and leave it up behind, go with love. It’s on our side, and it’s stressful. And I remember, like, I was playing it on repeat. And that evening of I was going to someone’s birthday and I was in West Hollywood. I was in the Candle Delirium store and I was buying a candle for my friend. And at the register, the guy I will see him there. He owns the store or whatever, but he was, like, Are you okay how are you, by the way, are you okay? And I broke down crying in the store. Like, in front of I it wasn’t, like, I because I was, like, I’m and then it just kinda cracked. And I was, like, crying because I couldn’t hold it because I was just I was dealing with it was I was just listening to music and I was alone. And then I just told him, I was like, oh, on today’s my brother’s birthday, he died, like, two years ago, and I really miss him. And so, yeah, I’m kinda sad, but thank you. And then they, like, they, like, gave me a big hug and they gave me, like, a really big discount on the candle that I was buying. And, anyway, that it was, like, really sweet. So it’s always good to be honest. Like, we don’t wanna get vulnerable when we’re doing bad. But if you just say if someone asks you how you’re doing, you’re not feeling good, there’s nothing wrong with saying, I’m not feeling good. I’m not doing good today. How are you? It’s good to be honest about what we’re feeling. That’s been the biggest lesson with all this and Yeah. And the best way I can honor my brother and Chase is by continuing to work on myself become the best version of myself. I feel like they’re here with me. I pray to them all the time. I talk to them. I danced with them. I, like, I went to EDC last year, and
Victoria Volk: What does that stand for?
Jordan Brodie: Electric Daisy Carnival in Las Vegas. It’s the biggest wave in the United States. It’s a big music festival, like, all the big big DJs, like Calvin Harris, David Geta, like, than even NASA, like, Gorgon City, Zoo, Grimes. All these DJ’s, like, perform. There’s, like, hundreds of d j’s five hundred thousand people in Las Vegas at the speedway from all over the world to go and I’ve been wanting to go for a really long time and it was my first time going and I went with two of my best friends, and it was so much fun. And there was a moment. Okay. So my friend Phoenix and Sean both really love this artist. His name’s excision. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but He’s a electronic music producer. His music has a lot of heavy metal references in it. So it’s not Like me, I’m candy pot. Like, I love pot stuff. I’ve always been great name Adzana, Michael Jackson and Paris Hilton and Christina Aguilar. If it’s gay, shiny, and sparkly, I’m all over a girl, and I’m listening to it. Like, I don’t even like horror movies, dark I’m the sugar to my friend’s spice. Like, I’m the bright one that’s very gay and happy. I do have a dark side Don’t get me wrong. I have a dark, angry, evil, twisted, bitch side of me too. Sorry. I don’t know if I can cuss back.
Victoria Volk: It’s okay.
Jordan Brodie: But okay. So so here we are. And I Josh and I wrote music together. We had a business together, my older brother. We made his songs together. Josh produced classical music He played the guitar. He played the bass. He played the saxophone. He played the piano. He played he taught himself all these instruments. He never had, like, probably, like, a few lessons when he was younger in piano, but he was a musical genius. He produced hip hop music. Classical music, hot music in the end. He was so talented. And I kept trying to get Josh to move to LA. Like, to, like, for us to work together, but he couldn’t ever his addictions problems and stuff would always get in the way of are working together, and it really frustrated me. And I don’t know if he was an addict or not. It’s not fair for me to say that, but Some of his behaviors would get in the way of us working together. Music was our bonding thing, my older brother and I. And same with Chase. Chase and I whenever we were driving in the car, it was like it was like you’re in a concert. Chase and I were jamming out. We listen to music all day. Chase was always messaging me songs. A lot of my favorite songs. I have a whole playlist with Chase music, Demi Lovato, just chase loved music. And he really helps me grow my love of music as a consumer because Pace wasn’t making music. He was an actor. He wasn’t interested in writing. He was interested in being an actor, but he had a love and a passion for it as like a fan. So I was writing music. Chase loved my songs. He was one of the first people to buy, like, the physical copy of my first, like, single make it right. Like, he bought it online when he could stream it for free. And, like, he was just so proud of me and he loved my music. And so it meant a lot to me because I moved he moved to LA a year before I did from my hometown, and he let me stay with him for a few weeks, and he helped me get start up because he moved there to pursue his acting dreams. And I moved to LA to pursue my music dreams. So anyway, at EDC, it’s a music festival, so it’s all about music. Of course, I was thinking about Chase and Josh the whole time. Like they were there with me. There was this moment. And Josh also was in heavy metal bands. He played heavy metal music, and I loved all kinds of genres, but heavy metals not really my cup of tea. Like, I love metallica, I love whole you can still understand the lyrics, but heavy metal, screamo music. I love the guitars. I love high-intensity guitars and music and rock music. Like, I love Ramstein. I’m obsessed with Ramstein. It’s because they’re really hardcore. But they speak German so it’s like, I already don’t understand German so it’s okay. But screamo music. I don’t know what they’re saying. I don’t I’m not the biggest screamo fan. I will go to a screamo concert. I will go to a heavy metal concert. I’ll address the part, and I will have a blast. And I’ve done it. And I supported Josh was obsessed with Bingo. I think it helped him presses emotions. He was in so many metal bands. He was, like, producing metal music, blah blah blah. Had all these things going for him. And so Sean and Phoenix both love excision. I’ve never heard him. Has a lot of heavy metal influences. We’re, like, up at front. All jammed out look like Barbie dolls. Like, headbanging in the front of the excision, like, looking gay AF in front of all of these because excision, people are they what’s that called, mosh, they mosh pit. Like, you know, it’s EDM, but people are mashing. Like, It’s aggressive energy. It’s not really me. Like, I’m not that like, I was the little gay boy on the in ballet class on this side. The boys ballet class watching the other boys who were just there because their sports coaches made them do ballet. They were all tackling each other, and I’m there rolling my eyes. Like, I’ve never really been the type to, like, do that. So anyway, we’re, like, head-banging. There was a moment where excision because it’s, like, hard more metal, like, idiom. And then all of a sudden, he he saw us, like, in the front row. I where he did this for the three games on the front, because he played a quote on Britney. He was, like, it’s Britney Bitch. And then it just went back to the And then there’s a moment where he slowed down the music. He was like, I just wanna take a moment. I just recently lost someone that was really close to me, like, a few days ago or a year ago. I can’t remember the exact time period, but he was like, tonight, I’m really thinking about him and I’m really honoring him. And if there’s anyone out there in the audience, that’s like experience is significant loss recently. I just want you to know that you’re not alone and I don’t remember what else he said. But it was just I started crying, like, during a heavy metal EDM, set because I knew Josh was there, like, with me. Like like, your loved ones are always is there with you and your memories and your heart. And I am someone who believes in afterlife. I don’t believe in energy. I don’t know if it’s actual heaven or hell, I don’t really believe in that. But I do believe that our loved one’s energy, like, is there and guiding me. I feel like I have this, like, this, like, team of, like, almost, like they’re, like, in the van of, like, the spy van. They’re, like, up there. I can just, like, be, like, yo, guys. Hey. What’s up? Like, I just feel like I have access to all these people in the spiritual realm, and they’re always with me. So whenever you’re getting Jordan, you’re getting all it is. And to add go back to your question about eye flowers, Miley Cyrus song music. When I always thought I would need a boyfriend, a husband, a partner, before I came to Europe. I would need a rich sugar daddy. I would need this. I would need that.
I can’t go alone. It’s romantic to go to Europe. You know? So the fact that I’m out here by myself without a man or a partner, I haven’t even I’m still not ready to date yet until I finish my steps. So I haven’t gone around any dates. I met some guys, and I was kinda trying to meet up with this guy that I met in Brazil, like, in Switzerland, but he goes to me. So I haven’t kinda sad about that, but you said it would wouldn’t it be nice to share this? In the past, I’ve always thought, yes, it would be so nice to have a partner to share all these amazing things with. But you know what I’ve been realizing lately is, yeah, that would be nice and that will happen eventually. But right now, I’m sharing my life with you, Victoria. I’m sharing my life with these work away hosts. I’m sharing my life with my family, my parents. They’re so excited for me that I’m traveling. They’re so supportive of this. My dad started sending me money to help with this adventure, which I was not expecting. And then a lot of my friends are so supportive and so proud of me, like, I am sharing my life with people. Like, I’m sharing my life with amazing people. Like, I don’t I already am sharing my life with an amazing beautiful community. Like, I really am. It’s not I’m not missing anything. I have everything I need right now. I have food to eat. I have a house to sleep in. I have friends. I have family. I have love. I have animals. And, yes, it would be nice to have a intimate, romantic, love partner to share all this with, but it’s just gonna add to what I’m already sharing with other people.
Victoria Volk: I absolutely got full-body chills with you sharing that. And I think that is the most beautiful message. Anyone listening to this can hear today. And that and that is self-love. Right? That is self-love. Opening yourself up to share what you have with where you are right now. Yeah. And that’s what you’re doing. And so thank you because you just It’s such a gift. Like, you’re our share in your life with me and to not want. Right? Isn’t that, like, the isn’t that what peace really is? What other peace feels like is to not have a feeling of want, like to be at peace.
Jordan Brodie: That in Buddhism, they always talk about the four pillars of Buddhism. Buddhism is always about It’s all about the relinquishment of suffering. And suffering is defined as wanting something else outside of us. That is suffering. So when I’m sitting there, yearning for Chase to come back or yearning for Josh to come back or yearning for this guy or yearning for this or yearning for anything that’s not right here physically in front of me right now. I’m in a room by myself talking to you sitting on this bed. This room’s really pretty. It’s I’m this is my present moment. This is what I need to be an acceptance about. This is exactly where I am right now. It’s exactly where I need to be. It’s exactly where I’m supposed to be. This moment has never happened before ever. In this new time, it’s happening right now. This instant present moment. And that’s the present moment is where amazing things happen. It’s where really bad things happen. The present moment is where we need to be. And it’s all that matters because the future will give us anxiety if we obsessed about it and the past will depress us. So so, yeah, it is piece to let go of the wanting. It doesn’t mean we can’t have desires, but when we have desires, I’ve learned it’s important to make a plan of action and set some goals, and then start working towards those goals, but not obsessing about when they’re gonna happen. Because they’re gonna happen if they’re supposed to happen, we can’t control that. And I have my goals and do you have everything I want? And Yeah. Sometimes when I’m sad and lonely, I yearn for a romantic partner and sometimes I’m sad about why Chase, like, why Josh, like, why my why this why the and sometimes I have to stop myself and be like, well, it happened. It is what it is. It did happen, and I have to be in acceptance. Because if I’m not in acceptance, I get depressed, I get sad, I get kiss them. I know my brother and Chase and my aunt Julie and all my loved ones. They loved me so much. And they wanted me to be happy. They really did. They wanted me to have love they wanted me to be free. Josh was very supportive of me as a gay person and very protective. Actually, when I was acting out promiscuously, Josh should be, like, Jordan, that’s not who you are. Like, what are you doing? Like, that’s not my brother. Like, and he really loved me. And Chase too. Like, Chase was really trying to help me get closer to God because he could see how lost and broken I was. An eye cutting. It was a light in a dark place. And my aunt Julie, she was always like Jordan. Don’t hide from us. We know how gay you are. She’s like, you are fabulous. And she’d be like, why are you hiding from us because I was still hiding from everyone. I was the one who needed to accept me and love me. Everyone loves me and loved me so much. They love how gay I am. They love how feminine I am. They love it. I was the one who didn’t love it yet. And I’ve done some work, and I’m still working on that every day, loving myself and accepting myself as my daily journey. And my point is, Julie, Chase or Josh, would not have wanted me to be sad and miserable. They want me to be happy. They want we just celebrate life. They want me to be successful. They want me to be extra. They want me to dance around. They want me to make billions of dollars. They want me to have that a nice guy who takes really good care of me, they want me to be happy. I know that. It’s not a question. And so I know whenever I’m starting to feel sad and I get sad about them, I’ll say, guys, I’ll, like, kinda say I miss you. I’ll express to a friend that I miss them or I’ll write something or I’ll allow myself to cry or this song has been really helpful to me lately. The next right thing from Frozen two. Oh my gosh. That song just gets me. I listen to it every day sometimes. It just really helps with these emotions because that’s all we can do sometimes. Is the next right thing? What is the next right thing? I know after this, I got some stuff to do. That’s all we could do is the next right thing. And, yeah, I know that that they would be happy and mad with me. I’ll say one more thing too. I’ve learned this recently. There’s a great docu-series, by the way. On Disney plus that Morgan Freeman does called God, and he talks about lunch of different religions and their views, not just Christianity. He talks about Buddhism. He goes to India. I forgot the name of the city. It’s like Varnasse or Varsini India, which is one of the spiritual capitals of India. And he talks about in Hinduism, how they celebrate. They celebrate death. It’s not a taboo. It’s not this grim, sad thing. They believe and after life, they believe it’s a journey into a new thing, a new place. So they is a passage. They’re excited for their loved ones to go on and continue. It’s a celebration for them. And I kind of I have in American culture and eastern western culture death is seen as this morbid sad thing. Taboo talk topic, it’s awkward. We don’t know how to handle grief. We bat we don’t know how to handle it. We don’t have these social systems in place. Whereas in Hinduism, it’s celebrated. They’re like, hell yeah, like, I loved one died. They get to go on. They could have a new experience. It’s like going to college or something. I’m like, we’re getting a new job. It’s like in a new thing. It’s citing. So I’ve been trying to think about that with Chase and Josh and Julie and my other loved ones. It’s like, I make I’m excited for them. What are they doing now? They’re probably having so much fun. Like, who knows? Like, what? Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I had a psychic medium on my podcast, her name’s Siri Burnson, and she spoke of a client of hers at one time who hurt this the client’s son had completed suicide. And the mother was just so concerned that her son was not in heaven. And he came through through the psychic and Derseri and she said he wants you to know that he’s in school. Mhmm. He described to through to Siri, like, where he is at, it’s school, that whatever lessons he didn’t learn in the three d he is learning now. And I’ve actually heard that different said a different way multiple times through other psychic mediums or through people who have had near death experiences or people who have actually died and come back who have talked about it like, looking like this experience or being this experience of, like, school.
Jordan Brodie: I love that. So where I’m at in Normandy, the host he teaches yoga and chi dong, Chinese like it’s kinda like tight. And then he does acupuncture. I did she gong on Monday with him Monday morning, and I had a spiritual experience. It’s like she energy and Chinese spirituality is God. It’s the energy of life, it’s the electricity, the spirit electricity, the realm that runs through you. And Shi Gang is just, like, movements like this. It’s just It’s not a hard exercise, but the whole point of it is the connectedness between heaven and earth, like the sky and earth And I had an epiphany during on my day. Because they always say the spirit realm. Right? It’s like energy. It’s not heaven. It’s whatever you believe it. It’s the afterlife. It’s it’s not tangible to the like you said, the three d plane, the this plane that we’re in right now. It’s another realm. The earth the real realm that we’re in right now is you know, tangible. We can touch things. Our blessing humans serve a huge placed in the universe because we’re the only creatures and animals I believe too that are the conduit the middle the middle ground between the spiritual realm and the real realm. We get to experience both. We get to experience the physical pain in existence and the spiritual pain. When we tap into God energy and we tap into our loved ones or past, it’s a blessing. It’s a huge honor to be human. And I had an epiphany that that’s what it means to be human. To be human means to be a conduit from this spiritual realm. And the and the physical realm. It’s a blessing and we have a purpose here to take care of each other and to take care of the animals who aren’t as advanced as us, I think it’s our responsibility to care for the animals, the and for the people that’s fortunate, the people that aren’t born with legs, the people that are born with diseases, if you have a privilege and you have legs or you have money you have resources, it’s our responsibility to take care of them. I had just had this whole epiphany during qingong, which is like so that’s why it’s good to be open-minded too. Like, I was raised, Christian, I read the bible. I do believe in Jesus. I do pray to God. I do believe in that. But I do think it’s important to be open to other things that aren’t out of your comfort zone to, like, new cultures and new things because the Chinese have been around for way longer than Americans have, so they’ve had plenty of time to think about things. They’ve I’ve so it’s, like, I had this a mate. I highly recommend Xevon for anyone. You really feel like the energy. Like, I felt you can feel it. Like, you can feel God. It’s so cool. I love it. Anyway, it kinda got off a tangent, but yeah.
Victoria Volk: I recently did Tai Chi at a retreat women’s retreat and I really phoned. Okay.
Jordan Brodie: Takes you off.
Victoria Volk: I really like that too. Can you just share a little bit for those listening? How does work away work? Because First of all, it’s amazing that you had that experience. You had that epiphany because of work away. Like, you’re experiencing all of these things and meeting all of these people because you took a chance on this opportunity to do this. So can you just explain a little bit how it worked? Like, you know, do you have to pay obviously, you probably have to pay to get yourself overseas and, like, how does that work?
Jordan Brodie: Yeah. I’ll explain. Okay. So this is something I’ve been wanting to do for, like, seven years. I don’t know how I discovered it, but there’s a website called workaway.info. It’s the website workaway.info, not .com .info. It’s been around for a really long time. It’s a social media platform. You can make a free profile, but in order to message host or message people, you have to pay fifty-six dollars or sixty dollars for the whole year. It’s like a subscription. And what that pays for is basically like, it helps filter out, like, kind of shaving people.
Victoria Volk: They’re vetting the people that get on that platform.
Jordan Brodie: Exactly. Because And then I there’s some type of background check process. I don’t know, actually, how that works. I don’t know if I don’t remember filling out a background check form, but they might do that. They do some type of thing verification process. I don’t remember. But It’s just a website anyone can apply for an e make a profile. I put on my profile. I’m good with children. I can cook. I’m good with animals. I worked at the doggy daycare. My grandpa had a farm when I was little. He told me to work when I was fourteen. I was always working on the tractor and the grass, this kind of stuff. My parents would always have me do tasks. I explained all of this and I explained my interest, and I’m learning French, and I know a little bit of Spanish. I put all this in my profile. You just make a profile. And then there’s workaway hosts. So people all over the world. There’s some in Austin, Texas. They’re all over the world. Every country, South Africa. There’s this really cool one near Cape Town. This guy has a Safari company where she takes people on Safari tours. And he just needs people’s help. The maximum hours you’re supposed to work is twenty hours a week, by the way. They’re not supposed to ask for anymore. And so for me, it’s usually about four to five hours a day, five days a week, Monday to Friday. I work about. So it’s not much. And this guy in South Africa wants people to help do marketing on for his safari business. There’s people who want nannies for their kids. There’s people who have the in Switzerland, Bern, I was helping her Flyer for her. She was starting a high school in her area. I was helping pass out flyers in the city center. And they help them cook, can I help them clean, and help them go shopping? The first work away, she could I was helped She broke her leg last year as older lady. So I was helping her with things she couldn’t do because of that her leg pain. And there’s all kinds of jobs, all of it. So you just make a profile, you pay for it, and then you message place you you can search by country where you wanna go, and then you just start messaging host. You say, hey, I’m interested in this and it’s completely volunteering. So it’s a way to get around. They want people to stay for longer than two weeks, usually two or three weeks, a month, two months, three months. One girl is staying here for eight months because they have long-term projects and they want someone to stay for a while. And it’s a lot of very interesting people that do the hosting. And you’re helping out. You’re like, living in, like, living and helping. And you get food, you have access to food, and a place to stay, but you’re volunteering so you I don’t have to get a special visa. Like, if you if I get paid from someone, I’ll have to get a work visa in this country. Wherever so I don’t have to get a visa because I’m volunteering. I when you come here, I say I’m I’m traveling. I’m a tourist because I technically am still traveling. I’m a tourist, but I am working in exchange to stay here. It’s just kind of a loophole. I feel like I found like hitch hiker’s guide to the galaxy, and then come on. What was my thumb? But I am offering some ands it’s pretty scary, but you just wanna make sure you message them. And I’ve made sure to have video chat with each of the host before going and seeing if I got along with them. There were some people I said no to because I didn’t feel comfortable. I didn’t want anyone that just wanted me to crash and pooch because I knew that would harbor it with them in them. I wanted to work. I have to work twenty hours a week. Because I don’t want to freeload. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing. It’s a great way to travel because I’ve always been wanting to do this for seven years. I was terrified to do it. I almost canceled this trip. So many times, I had just lost my job. I was in limbo. I used my last bit of unemployment money. To buy my plane tickets out here. And you can get some Gritty cheap tickets to Europe. What you do is you type your city in the US, in flights dot Google.com. Type in your city. And in destination, you can put Europe. So you don’t have to put the country, and it’ll show you what the cheapest flight to fly into. And I found a really cheap flight to Norway. It was only three hundred dollars. And then and then from Norway, there was, like, ten dollar fight from Norway to London. And then March, that’s how I got here. So so you can do that. Like, you just find the cheapest place to fly to. And once you’re over here, they have a airlines called Ryanair, which is kinda like Spirit Airlines in US. It’s just really cheap flights and ten dollars, twenty dollars, thirty dollar flights. It’s two other like, my flight to Edinburg was, like, forty dollars. Like, I’m going at the end of this month or next month. Wow. So So, yeah, my next workaways in Scotland. I can only be in Europe for ninety days because I don’t have citizenship and I don’t have a visa. But in the UK, you can be there for six months without a Visa. So I’m gonna go to UK for at least ninety days and then come back to Europe, and I’m just gonna bounce around between UK and Europe until I get my citizenship. Once I get my citizenship, I can get a job out here I can get an apartment, get a house. So so that’s what I’m doing. And it’s a great way to travel. I recommend it for anyone. Because you get to have a cultural experience, you get to meet locals, you get to hang out with some I’m not just in a hotel and going to guided tours. Like, I’m meeting locals. I’m experiencing the culture. I’m experiencing the history. Like, I’m in a small town. You get to feel what it’s like to live in another country. And I’ve always been very interested in how of first generation American feels like an immigrant, someone who moves to America without like, knowing the language. I’ve met people like that and they’re so inspiring me for me. They’re such hard workers they barely know the language and they have to build an entire life and they’re usually sending money back to their family. They’re just inspiring amazing wonderful people to me. I’ve always been fascinated with what with them. So I think that’s why I’m so attracted to being here in Europe and kind of being an immigrant here. I don’t like the word expat. It sounds too I technically am, but I don’t I’m not yet, but I don’t it sounds to, like, like, boosie, whatever.
Like, I’m an immigrant. I’m an immigrant as someone who migrates to another place. Like, It’s there’s no bad terminology about it. Alright. Nextiva, whatever you wanna call me about. World traveler. World traveler? Jitsi. Jitsi. An Experiancer. Listen to ladyaga Jitsi a lot.
Victoria Volk: This has been so fun catching up with you, and I’m excited to see how this experience will change you. Over the next year. And I am actually, like, let’s plan a catch up maybe not as long as two years, maybe in eighteen months or something like that. I would love to see. Yeah.
Jordan Brodie: I’d love to see you another one in a year. Yeah. It’s exciting. I’m I’m curious to know for the listeners, like like, what people what their experience with grief is and traveling and I’m really curious to know if I’m the only one who feels this like connection with, like, with my loved ones that have passed. Like, if you will if I’m just kinda delusional about all this or.
Victoria Volk: No. I can even tell you just people who I’ve talked to and had who have been on this podcast that that’s not true, that you’re not alone in that.
Jordan Brodie: Are thinking about them a lot. And, yeah, no one really prepares me for it. And it’s kinda like a splinter. Like, you just gotta rip out which just happens.
Victoria Volk: It’s very true.
Jordan Brodie: Well, thank you. Yes. So wonderful.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Thank you so much for being here and for catching us up on your life. And I look forward to seeing what workaway brings to you in the future? Because I think it’s
Jordan Brodie: I’m still working on music. I’m actually looking for recording studios right now because I have I’ve have a song written that I want to record And so I’m still doing my music stuff. Like, I haven’t given up on my influencer music artist’s dreams. I’m just trying to make a more deeper, more personal brand than just, like, like, some candy, pot, like, superficial, like, three d like, just two-dimensional person. I’m just trying to be authentically myself, but I’m still gonna do music and stuff. One thing I haven’t done, sadly, since Chase and Josh died, I haven’t really written about them. Or about their death or about any of that. I want to. I’ve been kind of procrastinating and printing it off. One of my favorite artists is Grimes. I don’t know if you know her, but she’s amazing. I love her. She’s so wonderful. And I learned this that her first album of Libya was written in Vancouver, Washington, her best friend died from a drug overdose, and she was to deal with her grief. She locked herself in her apartment for, like, a week and wrote oblivion, which was her first like, landmark album that, like, blew her up. And I’ve been wanting to do this. But I haven’t known how. I have actually brings up some pain like mention like, I’ve been afraid my impostor syndrome says, I’m not good enough to produce all the songs by myself. That I need a microphone. I need this. I need that. I need this. Like, there’s all these excuses that I have. And I really hopefully, by the next time we talk, I will have done a lock-in for a week and written about Jason. Josh, and Julie, and my other loved ones. I’ve written about Julie. She is my aunt. I didn’t really mention that. I mentioned to her a little bit. Right? She died, like, a while ago, something overdose. But, like, I didn’t I still haven’t written about Jason Josh, and I really I think I need to. I’m kind of waiting for the right time. It’s gonna happen when it’s supposed to happen. And but this next song I’m doing is called it’s it’s gonna be like a chill kind of pop song like asking people to get to know me because I want people to get to know me. That’s why I love doing this podcast because I really hope some of my friends and loved ones watch this and it helps me connect with more people because I want an audience that’s real and not superficial. Like, we all have a reason why we’re connected. It’s not just because I’m hot or just because I have good music. It’s like, they have a reason. You know?
Victoria Volk: Well, and I imagine that the loss of your loved ones aside that just traveling over the next year or two that what you experience will inspire your writing for sure.
Jordan Brodie: Oh, definitely. And I haven’t really written about traveling yet. I’d like to, but I’ve been writing. I’ve written a few songs yesterday. I’ve been writing. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Let the environment inspire you because it sounds like it is, so that’s wonderful.
Jordan Brodie: Well, thank you, Victoria. Bye now.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. Love you too. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Childhood Grief, Educational, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Q&A, solo episode |
Q&A | How Can I Best Help My Child In Their Grief?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
When tragedy strikes or challenging times knock on a family’s door, the children involved can feel cast aside or as if they are an afterthought while the adults are experiencing their emotional crisis. However, it doesn’t have to be that way.
As adults become more knowledgeable about grief, learning new tools and new information, beliefs about grief and how to respond to it can change, too. As children’s adult caretakers/caregivers connect to their own grief and apply new knowledge and tools, they also learn new (and healthier) ways to cope with grief and loss.
Grief education begins at home and starts as early as a child having their blanket or pacifier taken away or losing a pet. This episode explores how our children can be better cared for in their grief.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
Grievers Tend To Isolate
I wanna start by saying reminding listeners if it’s been a while since you’ve heard my earliest episodes or if you haven’t listened to them yet, there are six myths of loss that I discussed in this podcast and my blog posts, and all sorts of places and they’re discussed heavily in the Do Grief Differently™️ program that I facilitate. And the six myths of loss are don’t feel bad, replace the loss, grieve alone, be strong, keep busy, and time heals all wounds.
And I imagine that you’ve probably heard or had many of these taught to you as a child or that you do many of these things still today. When you are struggling in your grief or have a challenging time in your life, that’s causing grief. And the one thing that’s true is that grievers tend to isolate but it’s not natural because if you think about it, infants cry out when they hurt and we don’t isolate by nature, we isolate by training, by education, and by socialization. And we isolate because we are taught that we laugh together, but we cry alone. And so it doesn’t mean that we need to be surrounded by others 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And don’t get me wrong. I am someone that loves my solitude, and solitude is not bad.
Collecting one’s thoughts and feelings is not bad. For one am an internal processor of my emotions and my feelings and I need that time in private to do so. And if you know somebody who may be quick to anger or is maybe under a lot of stress. Maybe one thing you could ask them instead of becoming defensive is
“Hey, I see that you have been upset lately. I see that you have been angry lately.”
“Can I give you space?”
“Is that what you need? Do you need space?”
It’s kind of seeing the need before the other person really even realizes maybe what they need. But if you’re asking what that person needs or if that’s possibly what that person needs because maybe they are an internal processor of their feelings like myself. Space is exactly what they may need. But I think if you ask, what can I give you right now? That could help you or how can I best help you? And if one of those things is space, then to be respectful of that as well. Because not everybody wants to talk it out or even if they want to talk it out, maybe they’re just not ready. Or maybe you’re not a safe paint person to do that with. But we isolate because we are taught many of these different myths that I just mentioned.
How Can I Best Help My Child In Their Grief?
There is a normal and natural need to keep our own council away from others and away from busy activity and sometimes you just need to go into the bathroom and close the door and have a good cry. But the question this week is about how do I help my child in their grief? But I’m starting this episode this way because I want you to see and maybe recognize how you are responding to your own grief because if you listen to the first part of this, you heard me say, we isolate by training, by education, and by socialization. And so if as a parent or a caregiver or caretaker of a child who is grieving, who’s going through a really difficult time but doesn’t have the language, to articulate what they’re experiencing or what they’re feeling or if you assume that because they are not exhibiting behavior issues or they’re not, they’re being a good child, air quotes, good child, that they’re not struggling. You’re doing that child also a disservice because it could just be how they’re coping. It could be because every time they try to share how they’re feeling, they get a negative response.
What if our children learned different beliefs about grief?
So what if our children learned different beliefs about grief? And how to respond to it. Do you believe that that might produce better results for them in their life? Maybe even as an adult because they would have learned different ways to cope, more healthy, positive ways to cope with their grief as an adult, which in turn impacts their children because if they have children and they’re responding to their child’s grief and to their own by what they know and what they were taught as kids that may not be healthy. It may be more like those STERBS that are in one of the earlier episodes. I talk all about STERBS, the short-term energy-relieving behaviors, the gambling, the shopping, alcohol, drugs, whatever it is that people resort to feel better for a short period of time. You can see we’re learning new behaviors. Learning new ways to cope can have not only short-term but long-term benefits for children who have been raised with better beliefs about dealing with loss.
The Importance of Teaching Our Children About Grief Recovery
There was doctoral research that was done comparing children who experienced the death of a family member. And one group was made up of children whose parents or guardians had substantial awareness of the principles of grief recovery, which you can find in the grief recovery handbook, which I will link in the show notes but the second group had no knowledge of the book or any of its principles or recommended actions. The essential difference between the two sets of parents or guardians was this. One group was helped to look at their own beliefs about dealing with loss. And while the other group was not. As a direct result of looking at and adjusting their own beliefs, those parents and guardians passed on better skills and ideas to the children in their care. The children in this first relatively enlightened group made much better transitions in the area of communicating about sad, painful, or negative feelings. They can talk safely and accurately about feeling sad, then move on to other feelings. Individuals in this group do not perceive themselves to be defective when they are sad. And over time, their bond of trust with their parents and their openness about their feelings remained steadfast. This group includes children who ranged in age from four to eight when the major loss occurred in their lives.
And they have sustained positive lessons learned as the result of their parents or guardians, acquiring information about dealing more effectively with loss. Others in this study who were eight or nine when their loss occurred that were then teenagers feel incredibly safe in talking about or hearing others talk about loss. And in addition, they’re very helpful to friends who are dealing with loss. Keep in mind that what you believe is what you teach. So if you acquire more effective information about dealing with loss you will be a better teacher. And your children will be the automatic beneficiaries.
I know a lot of the people that I’ve worked with through grief recovery, who are also parents, realize a lot of ways in which they feel they failed their children just because they didn’t know the lessons and these things that they are taught through grief recovery and in my program Do Grief Differently™️. And even personally myself, like learning this information for the first time caused me a lot of grief because I can’t take back the clock. I can’t go back in time and fix how I was responding to the stressors and the grief in my life and that of my children because I simply did not know. I did not know then what I know now.
You Can Make A Change
And so if you’re hearing this information and you’ve taken part in grief recovery or if you haven’t read the book, A Grief Recovery Handbook or you listen to my previous episodes and you think “Oh my gosh, I’ve screwed up my kids or I am screwing up my kids.” I want you to be gentle with yourself and realize “yes you can’t turn back time but you can make a conscious effort and change moving forward.” You can decide to arm yourself with better knowledge, with better information, and a part of that may require you to look at your own bosses. And it helps you to connect the dots of the patterns that you’ve repeated throughout your life so that you don’t repeat those patterns and pass those patterns on to your kids. It’s often why we see so many parents who struggle with substance abuse disorder or alcoholism, who have children that struggle in the same way or in a similar way. And maybe it’s not alcohol, maybe it’s a different vice. But if we can understand and learn more helpful information and how to address our own grief. Our children are better off for it. And so my response to the person that asked me this question was to learn to be open to learning new information. Be open to learning about yourself because that’s how you integrate this new information and apply it to your own life.
And when you start applying this information to your own life, you show up differently in the lives of your kids. And so I just want to encourage anyone out there who has children or is a caretaker of children who is grieving or struggling in grief. As I can tell you, when I was a kid grieving, nobody knew what to do. Nobody had a clue, but there wasn’t anyone that I could talk to. Or anyone that was a safe person because, frankly, they weren’t comfortable talking about their own sad stuff. I mean that’s the point of it is that if we can start getting comfortable with talking about our feelings, Our kids will get comfortable talking about their feelings but you often have to go first as the adult. You do have to go first because if you’re not going to share and you’re not going to be vulnerable with your child, how do you expect them to be vulnerable with you?
P.S. I just want to encourage you to be open to new tools and new knowledge. Seek it out you can go to my website, www.theunleashedheart.com. Check out the book, The Grief Recovery Handbook. And better yet go through my program, Do Grief Differently™️, or a Group Program, specifically for grief that I also offer online and in person and address the stuff on your own doorstep. Because once you clear that life is just that much sweeter.
And you can create connected relationships, not only with your children but with other people in your life as well. I hope you found it helpful. And if you did I hope you share it or leave a review.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Resources |
Susana Morell | Hearts Matter Project: “Bad” Children or Hurting Children?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Susana is no stranger to grief. As a young child, she was a victim of sexual abuse. As a young adult, she lost her mother, later becoming her father’s caretaker, only to eventually lose him. The death of her nephew to suicide was when she realized that she could do something – that she needed to do something.
Susana would put her strengths, skills, training as a Certified Grief Recovery Specialist, education in Clinical Psychology, and, more importantly, the pain of her past into purpose by serving the most vulnerable – children.
Three out of four children, ages 6-17, have experienced the loss of a loved one, a loved one becoming terminally ill, or anger due to changes within the family dynamics. Susana wanted to create and provide tools for children, parents, and school districts, to help them understand themselves and their grief experience better.
These tools would be developed and communicated through her book, The Hearts Matter Project, eventually becoming the curriculum, Shielding Hearts.
CONNECT:
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As the 30 plus year graver and advanced Grief Recovery Method specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non gravers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion towards those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talk about the weather? Let’s get started. This episode is sponsored by do grief differently. My 12 week in person or online program that helps Grievers who have suffered any type of loss to feel better, and do grief differently. You learn new tools, education, and a method you can utilize the rest of your life. In this program and with my guidance, you remove the pain of grief, the sadness will always be there because even in complicated relationships we love but it’s the pain of grief that keeps us stuck. Are you ready to do grief differently? Check out my website wwwtheunleashedheart.com to learn more. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Susana Morell. She is a master level clinician and grief expert who transformed her heartache into a curriculum for children to learn how to process their grief and loss in a unique and healthy way. Her education and experience has molded her into a patient empathetic and nurturing grief counselor. She herself has been affected with how heartache grief and loss can create internal conflicts and multiple stressors. As a working professional in her field, she has been given the opportunity to become a certified Grief Recovery specialist through the Grief Recovery Institute. Her passion lies with supporting Grievers who allow themselves to become oriented with the effects of grief and loss so they can return to their routines and move forward. Thank you so much for being here.
Susana Morell 2:27
Well, thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 2:29
I’m excited to highlight Shielding Hearts as a nonprofit, for the podcast, because I feel it’s near and dear to my heart especially I’m a child Griever, my dad passed away when I was eight. And there weren’t resources or services in the late 80s. For me, or other children for that matter. I didn’t know anybody else who had experienced that. So I felt very alone and very isolated. And people, truthfully, staff and friends didn’t know how to to be around me or to support me. And so I’m really excited to learn more about shielding hearts, I was reading through your paperwork, because we’re both certified Grief Recovery specialists through the Institute, which is another reason why I was excited to highlight your organization because you have that background. But also Furthermore, you have that clinical psychology background as well. And so they’re bringing you bring another element to that work. And so let’s start with your story, though, in how this really came to be for you.
Susana Morell 3:42
So in 2017, and I had already been a year after I lost my father and I was my father’s caregiver. So I think that was the hardest thing to see your hero become a weak and then eventually, you know, to lose him that was very, very difficult within itself. And I was the I’m the youngest child. So being his baby, it was very, very difficult. So you’re trying to get your footing and trying to get back into mainstream of life. And you just your heart is so heavy. And that’s when I found the Grief Recovery method. And it helped me to be able to really process and understand how the loss was affecting me since I had also just lost my mom two years before. So I’m losing my two constants in my life who have been, you know, my compass helped had been co parents and I was a single mom at the age of 19. So these two individuals that just were just everything to me, it was very, very difficult. But as I mentioned on 2017 I lost my nephew to suicide. And that really broke my heart on on so many levels. So I was determined to put pen to paper and to say these children are are hurting, they’re suffering in silence. I know that we have amazing counselors, we have a lot of support and resources. But what if the parents can’t get them to those resources? So I channeled that hurt and frustration and anger. And I said, I don’t want anybody to ever have to be on the receiving end of that phone call, you know, he was only 17. And just for him to believe that that was his only out. It’s just I don’t I know that other children are feeling this way. So I created these modules to where children are able to come in ages six to 17, they get identified because first a caregiver, a guardian. Or, you know, a parent will come to the campus and ask the counselor, do you have any support here at school? And so I’m very proud that now the district that I am in can say we actually do, we have a grief expert that works with the children, and this is my fifth year being in the district. So it goes to show you that it has been the outcomes have been amazing. And the way that we set it up, you know, from the daytime is so much easier to be able to have access to the children because they’re they’re already on the campuses. So what I basically do is, for example, I’m going to go over what is really common that is said to children, that affects them. So any age range, but specifically with the children I work with, when they are asked, Are you okay? This really annoys them and makes them angry, because they’re seeking for an understanding of what just happened to them. They’ve had a huge disruption in their life when they lose a mom, their dad, as you mentioned yourself, so you feel very alone, isolated, your friends can understand. And if all an adult, a teacher counselor is offering friends of the family, other family members, are you okay? It kind of makes them feel like they’re being kicked while they’re down. Because what they want to say is how can I be okay, I just lost somebody very special to me. So I explained to them, I know that this, you know, is very hard to hear. But I’m going to go through the rest of the questions. And then at the end, I will share with you what I how I explained to them how they can have these questions to be stopped or statements to be stopped from being said to them, because they’re not helpful. When they’re also told I’m sorry for your loss. It makes them feel like what are you sorry, for? You weren’t responsible for taking my loved one from me? Why do you keep telling me you’re sorry for my loss. And it feels like people are taking pity on them. And they’re, they’re not wanting to feel that they’re they can’t cope. So that is a statement that, you know, really doesn’t help. The next one is your grandma, grandpa, mom, dad isn’t a better place, sweetie. They mean, no disrespect, that this may be a glorious place. But what their heart is desiring and what they are yearning for is for their loved one to be physically here with them. So it’s like they’re being force fed this idea and their feelings are being minimized when they’re told this. But they’re in a better place. They’re not suffering. I’m they’re not negating that, that they want to feel acknowledged. And so I allow them to be able to understand why that’s bothersome to them. The next one is you have to stay strong. Your mom would have wanted you to be strong, your dad would have wanted you to keep it together, you’ve got to think about, you know this that that’s you know, that’s not fair to say that to a child because it is nothing about being strong or weak. They are, they are hurting, they are going through an array of emotions. They tell me it’s like this vortex that they’re just out of their body and, and they just they say it feels horrible. I said I and the everybody always asked me so what should we say to them? I always say, we don’t know exactly how this has affected them because grief affects everybody differently. So try just starting the conversation with I couldn’t even imagine. You know how you’re feeling? Would you like to talk about it? I’m here for you. That’s so much healthier than these statements. The one that hurts the most is when they’re told you have to accept that your mom is gone. You have to accept you have to move on. What if they’re not ready to? You know, so I tell them, you will never hear that from Susanna. My goal is that I’m going to teach you to adjust and adapt to the huge loss that you have experienced and to be able to understand that. So just in that first session, I Tell them you don’t like these statements, you don’t like being asked these questions. No, I don’t, then guess let advocate for yourself, you have a voice for a reason. And you need to tell your aunt that the next time you’re in passing with her and she asks you Are you okay? For example, you need to tell her. And you know, Auntie, please don’t say this to me, it does not help. Because children, they’re, they’re coming from a perspective that you’re the adults, you know better. And so surely you will not say this to me every time you see me. And I tell them, This is what you think. But they don’t know what’s gonna help you, and what’s not gonna work for you. So this is when you have to advocate for yourself and say, Please don’t say this to me. And it changes the dynamic. And then the person knows, the last thing I’d ever want to do is hurt you, or make you feel sad, or bring up the thought of the loss. And maybe you weren’t even thinking about it. So then it helps them to be able to understand that. And to get away from that. With my high schoolers, what I do is I tell them, how frustrating is it that you go to the dictionary and you look up grief, and it says deep sorrow due to a loss? So what are you supposed to do with that? That’s so insensitive. It doesn’t give you any guidance, it just helps you to validate that your heart is broken into a million pieces. So I I am the first session have them confront with grief is and they get to write out their own definition of it. And we throw out words like grief to them is feeling misunderstood. They can’t breathe, they’re in a lot of pain. They’re frustrated, they’re losing hope, loss of trust, depression, anger, anxiety, sad, guilt, shame, no energy, and stuck.
So that’s the definition that they formulate. And I can’t imagine what they’ve been doing with these feelings before they came to the sessions. They’ve been walking around with this. And this is why they’ve been reactive. And they love how I addressed that. Before you came to grief counseling, not your finest moment, you’ve identified a lot of these feelings and how you can see how they can be hurtful to you and your relationships. So you’ve been sabotaging yourself. I said, so moving forward. Now you know that this is what’s caused that reactivity, with you cussing with you sabotaging your grades with you losing interest in your after school activities, baseball, football, cheerleading, you know, the debate club, anything. Now you know that that reactivity has taken over your life, and it’s basically speaking for you grief has been speaking for you, because that’s not who you are. And they’ll cry with me. And they’re like, No, that’s not who I am. I’m not a rude person. I’m not somebody who loses, you know, you know, side of what they need to be saying in the moment, and it overreact. That’s not who I am. It’s, you know, the grief has driven you to this. And you almost feel like you look in the mirror, and you don’t even know who you are anymore. So it’s being able to let them know, I know, you feel like you’re at a, you know, the edge of the cliff. And you’re like, that’s it, I don’t want to live like this, I’m ready to jump. And I, I would like to believe and the feedback that they’ve given me is that they feel like I’m tucking them away from the cliff. And they eventually are so far from it, when we’re done with our sessions, that they’re like, I can’t even believe I was once there. And I don’t ever want to get back to those feelings, because they get to process with me week to week for six, sometimes eight weeks. And it’s consistency. And they’re so proud of themselves that they’re having this opportunity for self care and to recover. And then they evolve and there’s so much healthier now feeling equipped, and now knowing what to do so that they don’t fall into, you know, into the grips of grief moving forward.
Victoria Volk 14:18
One thing I want to come back to circle back to a little bit is, first of all people who listen or listening adults who experienced grief or trauma as a child probably are identifying with everything you just said and are probably seeing those same things manifest in their life as an adult. That was my story. I’m sure for many Grievers. That is the case for child Grievers because you grow up with it. And unless you learn these tools, and gain new knowledge and how to respond to it, you’re going to continue those behaviors into adulthood. You and I both know this, right? Yes. One thing I want to highlight though is that And something that’s been on the forefront of my mind lately is that we do all there’s like, and as a grief recovery specialists, you know, this too is that we all respond to grief. Similarly, not the same. But similarly, like we have these STURMS, the short term energy relieving behaviors, these things resort to to feel better for a short period of time, or we might have angry outbursts, you know, we implode or we explode, we all do these things, some of us do one or the other, or a combination of different ones. But we all tend to respond to grief. Similarly, the reason why I would just want to highlight, we respond differently to our loss is because the relationship is unique. So it’s the relationship that we’re responding to, as in effect of that loss, right. So you can have two children who had the same loss, but they’re responding differently from the relationship, maybe one felt really loved. And the other one felt like they were the, you know, discarded or not cared for as much, or maybe they weren’t the favorites, you know, some siblings can feel that way. And if they lost their father or mother, they’re experiencing their grief in response to the relationship, so I just wanted to highlight that, for those listening, why you may have two children or kids in the classroom who’ve had a similar loss, but are responding differently, might be exhibiting those same behaviors, but yet, maybe one’s angry, and maybe one’s like I, I really internalized it. And I think your personality has a lot to do with that too. I was very much an introvert, I am an introvert. And so I, I was I didn’t have the angry outbursts, but I was tardy a lot. Fatigue was huge for me, as a child, you know, having accidents, things like that. I was also a child of sexual trauma, after my dad passed away, so there was a lot going on in my life as a child. So I just wanted to circle back to that for to clarify that. But I love what you’ve created, because it is so needed, desperately needed. So if someone is listening, who, oh, gosh, that sounds so cool, I want to bring this to my school, or I want my school to know about this does it have to be somebody who is a trained school counselor, or, you know, someone with a clinical degree psychologist who does work with the children in the school district to provide this program.
Susana Morell 17:48
Now, I’ve been very successful and training parents, so they can do the online training with me and I go through the workbook with them, it’s so the goal is to you know, improve the dialogue with children, the grief dialogue with them. And so, of course, the preference is that within the schools, you’d have the counselors train, and I’ve had a few train with me, and I love the you know, how they feel that they have more insight, they feel like they’re having a better understanding of the perspective of the grieving child after my training. So that’s huge, that’s key to be able to say, I feel like I can support this child, as to where you and I growing up, it was probably like, you know, you could tell the adult was uncomfortable, it didn’t know what to say, you know, and so it’s kind of like the blind leading the blind, you know, and when that needs to stop, we need to be able to, you know, be on the on the forefront, and to be able to say, like, we know that you have this huge emotional wound, and we want to help you heal, and we want to return peace and tranquility, so that you feel composed and get back to your life. So, you know, anybody who is works with children, whether that be a teacher, administrators, the counselors, you know, the crisis aides, just anybody in general, that, you know, I shoot for the stars, and that was my goal that, you know, people would catch on to this and say, you know, wow, and these modules, I mean, they’re, they’re so unique, they’re so different. It’s a lot of play therapy, it’s working with playdough, it’s working with Legos, you know, it’s doing all these exercises, but while the child is engaging in the activity, you’re being able to help them connect to this is why we did this activity to help you understand how to minimize anger, how to minimize hurt, how to minimize disappointment, how to minimize everything that you’ve been going through, and they feel that relief, like, oh, what you taught me today is something I can actually do, because they have all this potential, but they’re buried underneath all their potential when they’re grieving because they don’t even know right from left. So when you start, you know, being able to introduce this to them and they start feeling like they’re better informed, and that this is working for them, that they’re just they’re eager children are so eager to learn. And they, they, you know, there’s they desire this guidance so that they can navigate out of this situation.
Victoria Volk 20:16
ow did this become a nonprofit, because I know that there might be people listening that would like to start something similar or have something burning within them that they would like to bring to the forefront.
Susana Morell 20:33
So, um, as my individual office, you know, when you’re calling a school, or you’re calling an agency, or you’re calling just anybody in the community, and you say, I’m calling from Suzanna morale, counseling services, this is what I’ve done, this is how I’d like to help and you don’t get many phone calls back because they’re like, I don’t know who this person is, right. So everybody kept saying, you may want to consider becoming a nonprofit. I mean, you have your curriculum, you have great outcomes, this does work. And so this way, you’d be able to maybe reach more masses. And it’s just something about being an entity that’s very different than just being a person. And I said, okay, the, you know, I wouldn’t know the first place to start, I was very fortunate to have great mentors and to be able to say, Okay, this is how you license your curriculum. This is how you get the paperwork established, get lawyers involved, you start feeling very overwhelmed. But you know, you’ve got that passion, and you’re, you’re dedicated to this, and you’re like, if this is what I’ve got to do, to be able to support children, that’s fine, I’ll do it. And so it got established. And it’s very exciting. When you do receive, you know, being aware or receipt, getting your letter saying you are now you know, a 501 c three, and you’re just just so excited, because you’re like, I’m off to the races. And clearly, you know, this will be the answer that districts have been looking for and agencies and community support, and it doesn’t work that way. You just have to have a lot of patience. You have to just let people know you’re out there posting on social media, you know, being able to be on podcasts, and being able to just people to know what you’re doing. So they have a better understanding. I post videos, I have some of the activities that have been done when I’ve gone to go speak to campuses. And so it’s really, really hard to when I do a presentation to show how this works, because I can’t bring a child in and have them share their story due to confidentiality. So I can show the metrics and the goals that we’ve achieved. And the you know, the outcomes and how it’s evidence based. But that’s where it gets so frustrating Victoria, because people are like, Well, how do we know this really works? Well, I’m showing you start to finish I can bring in case studies and show you how the child enter telling me that they’re not sleeping their grades are, are you know, not what they should be. They’ve lost interest in everything. You’re talking about the fatigue Enos, you know, where they’re sad. They can’t talk about their feelings. They’re not, you know, they answer this questionnaire. And when out of these 10 questions, they have all these, you know, areas of their life that are being negatively impacted by grief. And they almost answer yes to everything. And then when they exit, they’re giving feedback saying yes, I have a better understanding of my feelings. Yes, I can talk about my feelings now. Yes, I feel like I have relief. Yes, I have a better understanding of grief. And I’m better informed. You know, yes, I’m eating better. Yes, I’m back to my activities. And then they share, you know, in their own words, can you please write us, you know, a sentence or two about your experience. And they say, I learned how not to hate the world. I loved this program, I learned that, you know, I was being misunderstood. Now I know how to be able to say how the grief affected me personally, I feel that I can, you know, be a support for my family. Now, I can help them to understand how we can improve the communication change dialogue. So when you get that back, you would hope that you know, I’d be doing more than just one district but once again, just to be patient, because it does have the potential it does work. And so that’s where I’m at right now. So 2022 Now starting during a pandemic, you know, that was scary. But the support is there. Recently, I was very fortunate to go into a family shelter. I approached the executive director at a community meeting and I said, I know you do you have a great program for rehabilitating the parents and for them to get back on their feet. What are you doing for the children while mom and dad are going and learning job seeking skills and financial literacy and you know, being able to work on themselves? What are you doing for the children and they were like, well, you No, we have someone who babysits them and they watch movies and they play and I said, you don’t think the child would like to process what has been like to be, you know, relocated overnight, be sleeping in a car now being a shelter being a program. And she’s like, we never thought about this at all, I’m sure their heart has a lot of things to say about this, you know, it’s a lot of changes. I mean, they can’t tell their friends where they’re at. I mean, so then I have been working with this family shelter for a year and a half now. And they have seen significant improvement, the children come in, you know, reactive, they’re rude, they’re, they’re feeling just very uncomfortable. They’re, you know, nitpicking at everything that they don’t like anything. Once they go through my program, they’re just like, they’re better adjusted. They trust the process. And most importantly, I remind them that at this current time, I know, this isn’t the ideal environment, this isn’t your home, but you’re safe. And at the end of the day, that’s more important than anything, and you’re surrounded by a lot of support and great volunteers. And so being able, the goal is for shielding hearts to be able to do more of that work, because, you know, the, the shelter, that they don’t have the funding to bring in someone to pay them, you know, what they could so through the donations that we have, were able to come in, and we’re able to give them, you know, a reduced rate to offer this support.
Victoria Volk 26:28
That’s amazing. And so for those listening to where where is shielding hurts based out of Hema, Texas. So right now, it’s just in Texas, but you’re looking to explore. Oh, absolutely. So I know, as a grief recovery specialist, you know, we the Grief Recovery Institute has the program, helping children with loss, and with the hearts matter project, that helping children with loss program is the foundation of that, and then you have incorporated other things that you’ve gotten from your training, is that accurate? Correct?
Susana Morell 27:05
Yes. And things that I created, when I Yeah, so when I was in grad school, I created a therapeutic game that would help children be able to feel that they could speak from, in a fun way, take on, like, speak through like, a character that they they really admired. So that in this moment, since you’re Ironman, for example, and we’d go around the board of the game that I invented, and they’d be able to speak well as Iron Man, this is what I think about divorce. And as Iron Man, this is what would have hurt Iron Man, and this and that. And so and then once, and then we’re able to say so Now eventually, in the game, we would put Iron Man aside, and we would allow the child to say what that was like for them to be able to, you know, hear that narrative and see that journey through Iron Man’s eyes, but now be able to feel comfortable enough to take the lead.
Victoria Volk 28:03
That’s brilliant. And actually, because, you know, children are imaginative, of course, but I can remember wanting to be anywhere else, but where I was, and to be anyone else, but who I was. And so to roleplay I think that’s brilliant. That’s a brilliant idea. And, you know, I think to like, what, what are your I don’t know why I’m thought of this, but like, with children with imaginary friends? Do you think that that is an aspect of their subconscious to or away for that they sometimes that children sometimes cope with stressors in their life of maybe that’s them role playing with an imaginary friend, like, you know, it’s almost as if like, they can’t, they don’t feel like they can communicate with the adults in their life, right? So they have this imaginary friend that they talk to, and do you? I don’t know, do you? Have you found that in your work that that’s sometimes a way a child is coping with stress?
Susana Morell 29:13
Absolutely. It’s so therapeutic for them. It works for them, the adult may become alarmed because they’re like, why are they talking? What Who are they talking to? What are they doing? And I always like to let parents know because I did write a book. That’s how you know I wrote a book and then I transformed the book into a parent guide. And I stress in the Parent Guide, mom, dad, caregiver, Guardian do not become alarmed. This is therapeutic. Because at the end of the day, who is the child hurting by having their imaginary friend, so not hurting anybody? They’re in their safe space.
Victoria Volk 29:50
You know, it’s not to say that they aren’t seen spirit and we aren’t going to go there. This podcast but I fully believe that that is the You know, children are unfiltered. Right? So they’re more likely to see spirit. And that’s what I believe anyway. But I love that you have written a book. And that’s what kind of created the curriculum. And so can you share a little bit about what that process was like for you?
Susana Morell 30:20
Yes. You know, I had always wanted to put, you know, you have all those years of experience. I’ve been in so many situations where I was over the crisis situations for children and families. And so you have all this knowledge, and you want to be able to break this down to help parents because they do they feel embarrassed, or they feel like why don’t I know what, because you’re not taught this in school, you know, and so I want I wrote the book from the perspective of like, being able to feel like you have some life skills, like you’re you feel more comfortable with it, to be able to engage with your child and to be able to speak to them through care and concern. Because when children tell me, my mom yells at me, she gets really angry at me when I’m crying. And I don’t understand that Miss Susanna, and I help the child understand, mom is, she is sad for you, she feels frustrated that she can’t take this hurt from you. And I wish she would just tell you that and instead of allowing herself to be reactive, and to be yelling at you, but that’s really what’s going on, I said, but rest assure mom is reading my parent guide, while you are here in the sessions with me, and you’re gonna see improvement, because if, if I’m helping you to better understand, you know, this grief process, I need mom to be on board to have a better understanding of how it’s affecting you. So they’re collaboratively you know, I wish I could have sessions with the parents too. But all the feedback from the parent guide is Oh, my gosh, that was that was written. And I never I could see what I was guilty of, and I love how it was broken down of what not to do. And to be able to feel like I have the support and written from from a standpoint of just being very, you know, yeah, therapeutic techniques in there, but not feeling like I needed to have a degree to understand this content, you know, just very just Elementary, just, you know, just something to wear. If I, you know, pay attention to the words that are written here, it’s to wear the same thing of what I give to the children I’m giving to the parents, like, oh, I can do that. I love that suggestion. I will apply that. And then they start to see the difference. So that’s what, what really drove me to be able to create that.
Victoria Volk 32:47
And what is the book called?
Susana Morell 32:48
The Hearts Matter Project.
Victoria Volk 32:50
Okay, perfect. And I’ll put a link in the show notes to that. Thank you. So what is one tip that you would give someone listening, whether it is a teacher, a counselor, a child, perhaps, maybe children, teens are listening to this, or a parent? Maybe your advice is different based on age, I’m not sure.
Susana Morell 33:18
Well, just in general, you know, I appreciate when someone wants to be empathetic, that wants to take that extra step to be able to be a part of that support system for a Griever. And I just always say, you don’t have to say anything, sometimes you don’t have to be you know, the expert in this. And just be honest with the child or, you know, with your co worker with anybody and just say, you know, I’m gonna be very honest, I don’t know what to say, I don’t know what to do. But I care about you. And as a human being, I can see you’re hurting. So is there anything that I can do to be able to help alleviate that hurt? Like, Are you overwhelmed, here at work? Are you this Are you that we can come together as you know, co workers and we can rally behind you and don’t We don’t want you to feel alone and we can offer the safety net. So to I encourage anybody to have that conversation, especially with children, you know, they’re not going to come and say to an adult, because they don’t want to feel that they’re disrespecting them. They appreciate everything that their parents are doing for them. But if you’re going to be nagging at them, because they haven’t taken the trash out, three days after they buried someone that was very important to them, you know, to pick and choose your battles. You know, they’re not deliberately trying to disobey you or it’s not that they forgot what their chores are. It’s just that right now, that’s not really a priority. So, you know, I would just really ask them to just be a little bit more sensitive to the situation. I’m not saying that excuse for a child to be running away crashing the car stealing money cussing? No, it does does not excuse that behavior. But if we can be more sensitive, and if we can address, you know, those behaviors with, I know that this cannot be, this had to be very difficult for you. And this is probably why you’re thinking that this is the only thing your only option for you. And I don’t want you to think that because you’re better than that you’re smarter than that. And what what can we do to be able to get you to eliminate those bad behaviors? And so just to be able to let them know, you know, we care about you too much to see you to sabotage yourself. Because that’s not the answer. And if you continue with this behavior at a 10 1217 into your 20s and 30s. You know, it’s it’s such a cliche, it sounds like a cliche, but it’s the truth hurt people hurt people.
Victoria Volk 35:57
I think so I guess yes, I think the biggest takeaway in what you just said is we can sum it up in a nutshell is for people listening, is that for parents, like you said, hurt people hurt people, but learn that learn how to be a safe person, a heart with the ears for the child and your life. And secondly, that those behaviors are a symptom. They’re a symptom. And so if you can learn to be a safe person and learn the tools, you might discover and uncover really what’s at the root of those symptoms of behavior. So what were you doing, I’m curious, when, at the time when you experienced your losses and loss of your nephew, were you on a different path and this like totally, like those losses, just change the trajectory of your life?
Susana Morell 36:51
Know, in 2015, when the court appointed me, my father’s guardian, I said, I know this is going to be really hard. I don’t know how long I’m going to have him for. Because he is deteriorating, they gave him three months under my care, he was with me 11 months. So I feel very honored that I was able to do that. But I was convinced, and him and I had lots of conversations. And he just told me that I have so much passion, I was such a great caregiver, I wanted to make changes, and I needed to believe in myself and I needed to get out there and do it. And I told him taking a big risk. And he said, It’s not about risk. It’s about you know what you believe in, you believe in that you can make a change, then do it, I know you will succeed, I have no doubt that you will create something beautiful. And so when I lost him, I really said, you know, this is the best way that I can honor them for supporting me for believing in me. For you know, just never allowing me to let any type of hurt or disappointment derail me from who I was destined to be. And I really feel like I’m serving a purpose. And it’s so unfortunate that you have to go through so many losses to discover that, but I feel so blessed. I feel like I’m living my best life. And when I can turn these children’s lives around. It’s just indescribable, to be able to be a part of that.
Victoria Volk 38:27
I just got goosebumps. It’s a beautiful, beautiful story and beautiful share. Would you like to share about your nephew, Lewis?
Susana Morell 38:36
Absolutely. Lewis was a young man that, unfortunately, he struggled being bipolar. And you know, within our mental health field, I just I wish there was more of a follow through. I know, they get assigned a caseworker and they have their psychiatrist and they’re good, but I really wish that there was more support for family when they don’t understand the mental illness. And so he I just feel like he got lost in the cracks. And he tried so much to get bounced back and it got harder and harder. And I’m, you know, my brother has never been a responsible father and he was just, he made fun of the disease and he made him feel, you know, demeaned and worthless. And, and I could come in and visit and I could, you know, pour so much love and remind him that, you know, because trust, I’m in the, I’m in the field, I’m trained in this trust that you will be okay, you’ll be able to cope. But you know, I live six hours away. So, you know, I can only you know, bring that to his life so often and so, but he would walk into a room and he’s just he was shy. He was so playful, but his smile was just it was just infectious and so sweet. He had a beautiful heart. And so, you know, one can The only thing that you know what, who he could have been what he wanted to study art, he was looking into art schools. And so yeah, we will never know. And that’s so unfortunate, but just a beautiful spirit. And I’m sure he’s so proud of me. He’s so proud of me, because I did. I did have for a moment to think, you know, you’re angry and you feel like, you know, did did the mental health field let him down? Did did? Did, did we not show up? Did we not do this. And through this work, and I help children and adults that I see in my office when they lose their partners to suicide. I help them to understand that at the end of the day, it breaks our heart that this is a choice that our loved one made. And it’s not for us to take personally.
Victoria Volk 40:51
Thank you for sharing. Well, and I want to there is an episode I had on my podcast a gentleman named Bob coolish, and he struggled with bipolar for well over 20 years before he was actually diagnosed. And he really educated me on bipolar. And he said that they call it the illness of loss. Because it is so often undiagnosed. But the one thing that he shared with me that blew my mind really, is when people go to a physician for support, right? When you when you’re feeling down and you’re feeling depressed, you don’t go to the doctor when you’re feeling amazing, right? You go to the doctor when you’re feeling like something’s wrong, or you’re feeling down or you’re sad, or, you know, you want to feel better write, that’s when you go. And as as a physician, if they’re not doing the proper screening for mental illness, including bipolar disorder, if they prescribe somebody who is depressed, an antidepressant, when in fact they have Bipolar, and they do not also prescribe a mood stabiliser, that essentially send someone with bipolar into mania. Someone with bipolar has to be on a mood stabilizer and an antidepressant. And that one decision of a physician causes harm. He told me that, and I have never forgotten that. And I’ve shared it with anybody who’s spoken to me about bipolar or anyone who has suspected that someone they love his bipolar, it is so important to be evaluated by someone who is trained in mental illness. And it just blows my mind that a regular physician, family physician is able to even screen for that. Or do so in a way that’s not they’re not trained to screen for that, right. They’re not given the proper tools and the training to actually screen for that. Because I think it’s great that people have access to a physician who can screen for that. But if they’re not properly trained, or they’re not doing that, they can do more harm. And someone will be in mania until they get proper treatment. And it just blew my mind. So if that’s an adult, going through that imagine now a teenager, who’s still whose mind and brain is still developing at a rapid pace and isn’t fully developed. Right? their frontal lobes are not fully developed until they’re 2425. So it’s educate yourself if you are suspecting mental illness of any kind, so that you can be an advocate for your child.
Susana Morell 44:00
Yeah, because I can’t imagine, you know, if there’s not this thorough understanding, you know, being able the child, you know, my nephew trusted these professionals, that they were always changing things, they’re always this, they’re always just wanting to admit him to psych units this that, I mean, a child starts thinking like, you’re I’m like an experiment. I’m a human being. And so why can’t we be able to get to the root or be able to give me the relief that I so desire instead of just, you know, well, that doesn’t work now, let’s reevaluate it doesn’t work. And so now you’re this and you’re getting in trouble at school and you’re doing this and you’re doing that now we’re gonna send you to the psych ward, and it’s just like this constant, you know, revolving door and I can see how it can just exhaust somebody, and then you go into mania and you just lose all hope. And it’s just, it’s a recipe for disaster. And it’s, it’s unfortunate that the children that children have to, you know, suffer in this manner.
Victoria Volk 45:00
Imagine the weight of someone as an adult going through that I just cannot even imagine the teenager how isolating that feels. I’m going to link to Bob’s link episode in the show notes too, for anyone who is interested in learning more about bipolar disorder. So thank you for, for sharing about that. So we could talk about that, because I think it’s very important. How did you come up with the name?
Susana Morell 45:27
Oh, thank you for asking. So the hearts matter project curriculum, I came up with that name, because I want the children to know that their hearts do matter. Their hearts are angered by so many feelings, and they feel stuck. And I want them to know that they do exist, they are one individual, their names may be very common, but the child that I have in front of me is one and only. And because they exist, I want them to exist in a positive way instead of a negative way. And that’s why it’s called the hearts matter project. Now, the logo for shielding Hearts is actually a picture of me as a little girl, I was in a cute dress. And I thought, How wonderful to be able to connect that image that that little girl as I’ve since since I can remember, I was always very nurturing, very caring, very loving, very sweet. And here she is this adult, you know, doing this work. And so I just love how it came full circle. And they were when they were like, Well, you got to find a logo, but nothing to where you would get copyright infringement or the you know, the legalities. And I said, I have the perfect logo I have this picture of, and I can just, you know, I would love to just jump into that picture and be that little girl again, because she hadn’t experienced the dysfunction, the heartache hurt, you know, everything. And so it just to be able to let her know that here, that little girl is now an adult and she is healed, and she only can what we’ve evolved to.
Victoria Volk 46:56
I love that. Had you experienced loss and grief as a child?
Susana Morell 47:01
Oh, yes. My goodness, yes. Probably the most hurtful and as loss of myself, you know, having sexual trauma. And so not knowing, I remember feeling like, you know, dirty, guilty shame, I don’t need to exist, I would hope that a car would hit me or an illness would take me or I wouldn’t wake up and, and until I was able to disclose that in junior high and get to counseling, and to be able to have somebody support me. And that’s when I said, you know, wow, this person and the supportive counselors, you know, throughout my life, before I decided to study counseling, I just said, I think I think I know what I want to do, because it almost feels like, it’s not the traditional, you’ll be okay, you know, you don’t have to talk about it. No one knows, it was, you know, that’s what family’s gonna say. But I needed more than that, because it was just so deep rooted and so much hurt. And then I was born with half a year on my left side. So having this, you know, defect and just everything that dysfunction of that and those surgeries and, and feeling like an alien and just, and then losing my grandpa that was very close to him. And then losing my aunt that was my one of my favorite aunts to cancer. So it just feels like I remember for myself as a child, every time I wanted to get back up and keep going and like life just would knock me down again and knock me down and knock me down. And you just eventually just feel like I don’t know what more I have to give. And if this is life, I don’t want to live it. And so, you know, um, I did have a suicide attempt at 18. And I tried to overdose, and I’m so glad that, you know, it was not my time. And that was not the answer. And through that recovery is where I was like, No, instead of sabotaging myself, I want to learn about this. I want to go get educated about this. And I want to be able to help people. And I think when you have that experience, you can help people and they feel very connected to you because I’m not having to tell them what I’ve been through. But they were like, Wow, you really do understand. And yes, I do. Because if I can recover, I want to encourage them and I want to help them get back to their lives and feel fulfilled. Because we’re given this life not to suffer. We’re given this beautiful life so that we can be amazing. And you know, and that we can just, you know, just feel like accomplished and just feel like we are you know this beautiful human being and we deserve to be able to live that life.
Victoria Volk 49:55
My heart is with yours and goes out to you on your life experience, and I feel like that is an origin story to be shared of shielding hearts. And I don’t recall reading any of that on your website. So I just wanted to encourage you to share that story. Because I love that image of use the little girl that you are the little girl in your logo. I think that’s beautiful.
Susana Morell 50:31
Thank you. And I appreciate you giving me that suggestion. Victoria. I’m just I think I felt like if I were to put that on the website didn’t want it to be about me. No, I wanted it to be about the health. And so now that you given me you know that feedback, it makes it feel no, it’s not about you. It’s about being having people to understand why you cared so much, why you wanted to make a difference, because you personally have been affected by it. And so I will definitely have to bring that to everybody’s attention and do an update to the website.
Victoria Volk 51:07
Definitely. I mean, that that. I didn’t know that that was you, the little girl. And so I think that’s a beautiful, like I said it’s beautiful origin story of your full circle life. Because had that suicide attempt and successful, there would be no shielding hurts. Right? That is correct. You wouldn’t have impacted over 700 children. It’s important. Thank you. What is the difference? Do you feel between? Because I think it’s important in distinct in sharing the distinction of how the hearts matter project is different. In that it includes evidence, evidence based content, right of, you know, the helping children with loss program, how have you felt, in your training personally, like the training that you were going through, you got your master’s in clinical psychology, but you actually went even with the knowledge that you had, you went through the Grief Recovery method. And I just for people listening, I just want to want you to share why that was so impactful, and why that was different than any training that you had received and why as someone who was training as a clinical psychologist, you felt that that was important for you to experience.
Susana Morell 52:33
I had never experienced the opportunity to obtain the apologies that I deserved. And that changed everything for me. You know, the person who sexually abused me as a family member, he went on to marry have daughters, I always cringed when I knew, you know, I, you know, he’s living his life. Like if like, if he didn’t, he’s done nothing wrong. And that has always killed me to be around family members and to hear his name spoken and what he’s doing because I’m like, you don’t know what monster this person is, and what he robbed of me my innocence. And I had never really fully recovered, until I did this work at, you know, the Grief Recovery method and my training, and to be able to, he’s not going to surface, he’s not going to reflect and he’s not going to redeem himself, and this lifetime with me, and knock on my door and beg for forgiveness, that’s not going to happen. So being able to hear that apology that I deserved, and that I desired allowed me to be at peace with it. And I just felt empowered. I felt just ready to just take this on and just start thinking like, How can I have others do this. And so that’s when I was just really determined. Once I acquired those skills, and I love being able to do that, in my private practice, when Grievers reached out to me and they said what will be different with this program than any other program and I explained to them, you are going to feel acknowledged, you are going to obtained these coping skills and learn a method that is really going to help you heal and to be able to help you recover. It’s not about a quick fix about putting a bandaid on it. Let’s have the emotional wound. Let’s heal once and for all so that you can feel, you know, compelled to want to get back to your life because they do they feel like they’re stuck. They feel like they’re that hamster on that wheel. It’s okay and then sometimes it gets bad and then it’s okay and sometimes it gets bad and I’m like, Let’s get off the wheel. Because that’s not where you belong. And so being able to do that in my office, I love it.
Victoria Volk 54:51
Same it is the most rewarding work that I have ever, ever done in My life as well, I Yeah, wholeheartedly 1,000% agree because being a child of sexual trauma abuse to, you will never get that apology and, and oftentimes to it, especially if someone who’s died, of course you will never right like so we we take this anger and we just we see inside. And this work really helps to soften, soften our hearts.
Susana Morell 55:31
And not just with grief and loss, I’ve now convinced the district that I’m at right now to let me work with the children that are demonstrating some inappropriate behaviors. And so you know, they get to come to the program, and come to find out that the disruption in their life is divorce, big sister Big Brother moving away to college, right, you know, moving from my house to an apartment because of financial hardship. And so I’m like, let me allow let me give these children an opportunity to process this, this could not have been easy for them. You know, it’s not that they’re ungrateful, it’s not that they’re ill mannered, they’re hurting. They want to know, how is it that one day I had a family dynamic and togetherness, and now it’s split. And this just catapults them into this, you know, just this emotional roller coaster, and they want it to stop. So I’m so glad that I’m able to work with those teams that are on probation, maybe did something on social media, that they didn’t have no idea how that would affect them. Never wanted to be on probation and the juvenile detention program. And so being able to give these children these skills is it’s, it’s amazing, because I don’t want them to be walking around with that anger, and then unresolved hurt. And so I’ve really advocated for that as well. So the program when counselors or teachers say, but I thought you were just grieving loss, a child anytime they experience any type of disruption. That is grief, it does not have to be just because it’s due to them burying somebody, it is their heart experiencing that hurt not having any reference to it. What just happened to me, that is grief and trauma for them.
Victoria Volk 57:21
And that is a huge part of our work, isn’t it? It’s just the education of of correcting that misinformation that grief is just about loss, which we know is not right. We know as an adult, you go through divorce? Well, of course you have grief with that, you know, what, who then why is it not normal, that a child would experience grief as well. So thank you for mentioning that. And I feel like that is a great way to conclude. I feel like it was a very good point you made, I love what you’ve created. And and it is my hope that it expands. And it just continues to grow. And is there anything else that you would like to share about shielding hearts, or about the hearts powder project or anything else that you would like that you didn’t get to
Susana Morell 58:12
Now I feel very comfortable with being able to explain the journey, the concept and who we are today. And I have a really great board that believes in the program. And like I said, it’s just being able to just tackle this one day at a time. And I’m not, I’m gonna stay determined, that’s what got me here, I’m gonna stay determined and just hope that this will grow because it really should be seen as life skills that these kids are just really searching for. They want to be able to feel that they can cope and move on. And they deserve that. And so that is just my hope that any any listener today will want to learn more, we’ll be able to see what resources we offer the book, the parent guide. And so just anybody who would love to be able to acquire these skills, we are here to support you.
Victoria Volk 59:08
So it is only in person, the curriculum, correct?
Susana Morell 59:12
No, the curriculum can be done online, we do have a virtual office and we can be I have been tapped in through video into classrooms and being able to offer this so we do have that virtual aspect of it as well.
Victoria Volk 59:27
Oh, glad I asked. Okay. All right. Well, there you have it. And if people want to learn more about you, or about Schilling hertz, where can they find you and reach out to you.
Susana Morell 59:38
We have it set up on the website to where if they’d like to schedule a consultation, they get to select what area they’re interested in, and then we’ll be more than happy to be in they actually have the calendar on there in the time. And then once they are able to do that, then we will be more than happy to follow up and be a able to reach out to them and see the reason for their inquiry and to be able to see how we can support.
Victoria Volk 1:00:07
But where can they find you? Online?
Susana Morell 1:00:10
Yes at www.shieldinghearts.org. And they can also find the book is on a susanamorell.com. And there’s a link there to purchase the book, it’s an E file, and the curriculum is available for purchase as well. And then when somebody does purchase the curriculum, then we can set up to where they can do the training, and they can learn how to utilize the modules. And the training is usually about 45 minutes up to an hour and 15 of your time. So any parent, any teacher, any counselor, Administrator, anybody working with children or just for personal knowledge to be able to expand on it to have this new skills, unique skills that are so beneficial, then we’ve been more than happy to set that up as well.
Victoria Volk 1:00:58
Amazing. Thank you so much, Susana, again for sharing all that you’ve created. And I love it. I love it so much. So thank you for being here today. Thank you, Victoria. All right. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parent Loss, Podcast |
Jill Batiansila | Together, We Heal
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Jill’s father walked out of their home when she was sixteen months old and didn’t return. He died in a plane crash, and her life was forever changed.
Fortunately, her mental health was of the utmost importance, having received counseling and therapy throughout her childhood and adulthood. During that time, the groundwork was being laid to prepare her, or as Jill would say, God was preparing her hands for His work. And that she did.
After finding her way from making jewelry for people celebrating special occasions to creating keepsakes in memory of loved ones, she inadvertently used her story, skills, and strengths in unexpected ways – supporting people through their grief in the co-creation of jewelry.
God told her it was time to turn her pain into purpose, and her non-profit, Together We Heal Community, was born in 2018.
One never knows where an idea will take us. Through Jill’s story, explore how she turned an idea and, more importantly, her pain into purpose.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:01
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Jill Batiansila. She is the founder of Together We Heal community in Elk Grove, California. She is a wife and mother of two teenage children after her biological father died in a plane crash when she was just 16 months old. She spent her childhood and early adulthood, avoiding any topic on death. In her early 40s, God flipped the switch on her heart and mission for her life and wove all her life experiences into her nonprofit, She now runs with the help of dedicated volunteers to serve those struggling with loss. And its many forums. Thank you so much, Jill, for being here and for being my first guest, as far as my new format for 2023 goes for highlighting nonprofit, not for profit organizations, foundations, things that people have created from the pain of their lives into purpose. And welcome to grieving voices.
Jill Batiansila 1:03
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:04
I’m very interested in your story of what led to the work you’re doing today. And how that has transformed and changed over time. Did you find yourself on this path? I mean, as you described in your bio, a little bit, you’re kind of on this path for many years. But what did it look like early on? After so much loss in your life?
Jill Batiansila 1:30
First of all, my mother remarried, when I was three to my stepfather, who might Don’t call my stepfather, He is God’s gift to me. When my dad, when my biological father passed away, I was 16 months old. My mom was living out on a ranch she was she did have support, she had a lot of family support. And I think she had such a hard time grieving as a young widow, that, you know, I really became her, her source of comfort, and I received counseling. All of my childhood, I have a half brother, who’s four years younger than I am. My mom was very invested in my well being and making sure that I got the help that I needed. So I had therapy all through my childhood into my adulthood, I had a lot of trauma, I wrote my mom a letter every single night, I remember when I was in grade school, and I was so afraid that she was going to go next, I was so afraid of losing the people that I love. So I had a lot of just, I think trauma and grief growing up that A was always going to a close be, even as my family I had my own family and they grew up, I still had this thought that, oh my goodness, they’re going to go, they’re going to go next. My father died in a plane accident. One morning, he just went out and didn’t come back. And so that was that was a continued thought that that was going to happen over and over. And so I didn’t want to talk about death. I didn’t want to think about death. I had a hard time even imagining anyone else that I loved leaving. And unfortunately, because you live and when you live long enough, you you experience grief. So I lost all my grandparents, I had three sets of grandparents. And they all passed away very quickly, in a very close period of time. And I just didn’t want to think about it. I didn’t want to talk about it. Every time I talked about it, I would break down. And then I realized after many, many years of therapy, that I was still grieving. I mean, I was in my 40s driving somewhere thinking what am I doing? And that’s my purpose in life. Am I doing it yet? And the clear answer was no, I was not. But God was really weaving all of my life experiences together to make this my purpose and it it wasn’t until my 40s that I realized, oh, I need to do something with this and I need to use my pain for a purpose. That was his specific words to me. Use your pain for purpose. Now it’s time.
Victoria Volk 4:18
So what were you doing before this took root in your heart and started to evolve?
Jill Batiansila 4:23
So I actually have a degree in psychology, which I didn’t use, then went on to get a teaching credential and a master’s in education, but then and taught for a while but had children and stopped and then when my children were small, I started a jewelry business and that jewelry business was hand stamped jewelry. I taught myself how to stamp this jewelry. And it became this custom local business and people would come into my studio at home and they wanted to put something in A lot of people were coming to me because they wanted to create something as a memorial. So many of my pieces were just mother’s necklaces, important anniversaries, Valentine’s Day, Christmas gifts, initials and things like that. But I did have a growing number of people who are coming into my studio because they’ve lost someone. And I did not understand this connection at first. But over and over and over again, people will be standing in my studio with me, we are creating this piece together and writing stuff down. And within five minutes, they’re crying. And I’m hugging them, and I’m offering comfort to them. And I’m thinking, what is happening? This is this is not my platform. This was not what I was supposed to do. But God knew better. He was weaving all of my life experiences, my psychology degree, my teaching degree, being a mother being a Griever. Together, I remember talking to my life coach at the time, and I was saying, I I don’t know if I should continue with this jewelry business, you know, my children are growing up, and am I missing things? And I just feel like maybe this is not what I’m supposed to do. And we talked a little bit about my history, my grief. And she said, Why don’t you use what you have? And just start something, start somewhere. And so that’s what I did. I mean, it, it really was the jewelry business was the vessel to the nonprofit. And I still do the jewelry business, but but it is not my heart anymore. And my I really have become comfortable with the idea that maybe the jewelry business paved the way because it got me here. And this is this is my heart. This is what I am meant to do.
Victoria Volk 6:53
I love that story. And I’m curious if you personally felt like a failure when you decided to in that business or if other people made the assumption that you had failed in some way?
Jill Batiansila 7:08
That is such a good question. Because I’ve struggled with that for the last year. Starting the nonprofit is I’m obviously it’s a grassroots organization. And I am a lot of I wear a lot of the hats. And I had this conversation with one of my best friends just a couple of weeks ago that I do. I don’t like to quit anything. And I haven’t officially quit the jewelry business website is still up, I still get orders, I still actually use a lot of my pieces. I’ve made Memorial bracelets that people that kits that people can put together and there’s paperwork to fill out about their favorite memories of their loved ones. So I I definitely praying about when if and when this completely goes away, the jewelry business goes away. But I do know that the nonprofit has gotten to a point where I can’t do it all myself and I do have an amazing executive board. And I have wonderful volunteers that helped me in different areas, the nonprofit, but I know that I can’t have asked this. So if I’m doing these two things one is going to give and it’s just been the jewelry business has been fading. I definitely went through a period of time where I felt like, Oh, this isn’t this isn’t what I first envisioned the jewelry business to be. But through talking with friends talking with my therapist, it is it wasn’t a failure at all. It was a success because it it led me to Together We Heal community. And I didn’t know that was the end result. But God did.
Victoria Volk 8:47
I bring that up because there was I’m a child grievers. Well, my dad passed away when I was eight. But there was a period of time I had a photography business very much like your creative outlet business. And I found myself writing, I would write blog posts about my clients and people would comment more about my writing than they did the pictures, although there are beautiful pictures and they love the pictures. But I always got comments about the writing people loved what I had to share how I saw them, right like young 1718 year old girls, I would write about what I saw in them or families or a wedding couple. And it was storytelling is what I was doing. And they loved reading how I perceived them. And I had decided to start a blog, a personal blog and decided I needed to close that business. I felt a calling for something more kind of like you right and I do have a point and bring this up this podcast isn’t about me. It’s about you. But I want people listening to understand that when we find our purpose The path there doesn’t always make sense, right? And so when closing that business, I felt like a failure. And I felt, and people thought I failed to. But I knew that I had to let that go in order for something else, to make room for this other thing that was really burning inside of me. And that was writing. And I wrote a book. And that led to some losses in between, which made me realize, oh, my gosh, I’m not okay, I was fine. For a lot of years, I thought I was fine. Which led to me becoming a grief counselor, and, you know, so it’s like, Everything leads to the next thing, nothing is wasted.
Jill Batiansila 10:43
No, that is, I think that’s been a very big component of together to heal community is letting certain things go so that other things can come up and be brought to the light brought to the surface. We do, I think we have a lot of expectations about ourselves. Growing up, whether it’s, you know, just things the expectations that were put on us, or if you’re like me, I have my own expectations that I obviously need to let go in order for other things to come to fruition.
Victoria Volk 11:12
And life has a way of putting those things confronting us with those things, right, that we need to work through so that we can get to that point of seeing the opportunity and recognizing the potential within ourselves.
Jill Batiansila 11:26
And I will add that throughout my journey with my jewelry business, I did blog a little bit. And that also helped me realize my true purpose. And I was never the only time I was ever truly passionate like I am with Together We Heal community was when I was writing stories, the stories behind the pieces that I was making. And I love doing that don’t get me wrong. I love helping people through their stories in creating jewelry. It’s just just blazed a trail for me to start together, we heal community. And when I talk about people, and I talk to people about the nonprofit, I feel like that passion really comes out. It’s so easy to tell my story now, because my story is not unlike a lot of people’s story. They just don’t know it yet. They think I’m alone, I’m, I’m the only one experiencing this. I don’t want to burden anybody else with this because they’re happy. And I’m the one that stuck here. But the more you tell your story, the more people open up about their own.
Victoria Volk 12:40
Or find an outlet to release the story. Yes, to tap into the feelings of what actually you’ve experienced. And I think that’s the thing is, so often we get caught up in the story. We recite it like a recipe card while and then this happened. And then and then and then. And we don’t really get to the nitty gritty of of how it’s making us feel and the impact it’s had on us. I want to ask you a question, because I think it’s important for those listening, because you mentioned unlike me, you had therapy, much of your life, most of your life all through childhood. I mean, again, nothing is wasted. But I’m just more curious, because of what I do is deal with grief specifically. Do you feel like it wasn’t helpful for your grief? Specifically? I don’t know. Do you still see a therapist? Do you mind me asking?
Jill Batiansila 13:28
Yes, I do. She’s amazing. And I would not be where I am today. If I if I didn’t have her. In fact, I think I see her tomorrow.
Victoria Volk 13:37
And that’s not a failure, either. Right? Because you’re seeing a therapist, that doesn’t mean you’re like, broken or messed up or.
Jill Batiansila 13:43
Well, number one, we’re all broken. We’re all broken. And I don’t sugarcoat that there are parts in our life that break us. And I don’t think that we’re truly healed until we’re that brokenness is is wide open for us to see. And I am a big proponent of therapy. You don’t have to be depressed. You don’t have to be at rock bottom to seek counseling. Now, I think counseling is is complicated because number one, I think people think I don’t need to tell someone my problem. I know what they’re going to say. And it’s expensive to be expensive right now. And in our world. There is a shortage of them. Finally seek one you’re often just met with walls. You know, oh, it’s a three month waiting period. Oh, I’m not taking new clients. Oh, you know, or, or you get to a therapist. And it’s been, it’s been a difficult journey to get there and then you don’t like them. So people often think I had one therapy. It was one therapy session. It was terrible. Okay. I always say try therapy. If you don’t like the person. You can give them up. You can try someone new. My therapist knows me you She is by the books. You know, she does not commingle personnel, even though I have her cell phone. And she’s connected me with a bunch of other therapists, she draws the line with, you know, professional and personal. I’ve seen her for, I don’t know, 15 years off and on, sometimes I would go every, every other week. Sometimes I go every, every once a year just as maintenance about maintenance, and it’s healthy. Sometimes I’m driving there, and I’m thinking, I don’t know what I’m going to talk to her about today. And then I just spew my guts for an hour, and I feel so much lighter. And she has this perspective that I don’t have. So it’s important, I think, but I don’t think therapy is necessarily for everyone. And that’s okay. You need to find an outlet. And that’s one of the reasons why we offer and I know we can get into that later, but we offer outside of the box opportunities to heal because not everybody wants to go to therapy, they look at therapy, and they go no, no, no. Okay. There’s there’s a myriad of other ways that we can help you.
Victoria Volk 16:04
Absolutely. And I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Grief Recovery. Have you?
Jill Batiansila 16:08
Not specifically Grief Recovery? Is that a method? is a method The Grief Recovery method? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Victoria Volk 16:18
That is the one thing that helped me, I did have a, I did attend therapy sessions in my early 20s, hypnotherapy, things like that. And much like what you mentioned, like my experience was not beneficial for me. But I think we come into our own time, when we might be ready for something like that. I think too, sometimes we aren’t ready to hear it. We aren’t ready to really dig deep. And I can tell you then in my early 20s, I certainly was not ready. And so I think we all have our own time and that when that happens, but
Jill Batiansila 16:54
I agree. And I think that as a griever. Our society doesn’t know how to deal with grief, we don’t know how to talk about it. We don’t know how to come alongside someone. In their grief, we don’t know, we’re uncomfortable with hard conversations. So often people are afraid to express to the Griever that I don’t know how to help you. And sometimes that is just sit with me. Or there’s a timeline to grief, you know, it’s it’s been a year right? You’re good, right? You you got through the first anniversary, you’re good. I don’t know how to help you, I expect you to be okay. And then they they start, you know, they’re back to their regular life. And so it’s important for people to not compare where they are in their grief with anybody else’s. And the other point that I make to people who are grieving is you don’t owe anybody any explanation as to where you are in your grief, I have come across people who are very stuck. And I don’t see them pulling themselves out of that. And there is frustration with the people around them that are trying to help them out and are invested in helping them with their grief. But grief can’t be fixed. But we can go through it. We can go through it on the other side. I myself have experienced that grief and joy at the same time. But we cannot compare even if it’s five years down the road, where we’re somebody else’s and five years later. Grief is so individual.
Victoria Volk 18:29
That’s exactly why I started this podcast grieving voices to educate people on how one they can move through it themselves, and to how they can learn through people’s stories, how to support other people and like this year, highlighting how people have moved through it themselves and now are supporting humanity on a greater scale. And it doesn’t have to be this grand thing, right? I’ve never heard of Together We Heal with community. And so this is part of my own curiosity to like, what, what is out there? What resources and what, what wonderful things are people doing? And so it’s out of my own pure curiosity to have that I’ve decided to make that a focus of my podcast this year. So let’s talk about how this started. Because you had no experience right? Yeah.
Jill Batiansila 19:22
I had to do it again. No, I my only experience was grief. I’m a people person. I’m a connector. And I just knew I needed to start with a platform where it was everything that’s out there about grief in one in one place. So I brought together some people who are willing to start a website with me and we divided it into different areas of grief you know, loss of a spouse, loss of parent loss of a child loss of divorce loss through suicide, and we tried to make it this complex. hence a website that encompassed everything that’s out there in the Sacramento area and into one place. So my goal is to really make Together We Heal community, a starting point. And you know, I’m the first to say, I am not a licensed clinician, but I am an experienced Griever. And I think that counts for a lot. And so we started with this website. And it took us about two years to build. And everyone who wrote the pages on the website, were an experienced graver in that area, my dear friend wrote who wrote the miscarriage page, she has experienced two miscarriages. And what she found actually, as a closed off person was after she wrote that page, and then started meeting people in her arena that that avidex had experienced miscarriage, she could easily talk about it, it was healing for her, and she realized that so many women experienced miscarriage. So we started the website. And then my next step was okay, let’s start getting some things going in Elk Grove, because I, our community is close knit. But there isn’t, there isn’t a lot out there to help Grievers. And I just really wanted to touch on different experiences, you know, somatic mindfulness, you know, when we experience grief, where do we feel it in our bodies? And how can we, how can we tackle grief from the side, you know, you don’t have to talk about grief, but just come here and be with us. Come and be with other gravers. So we then started a grief support group, we started different workshops that are that are healing and easy to come to you. There’s no pressure when you come to any of these, we call them workshops. It’s just come as you are and get this gift of this amazing people. But amazing people have come into this. And a lot of my facilitators don’t even charge Together We Heal community for their time, they’re also of service I have attracted people who want to give back and I’m so blessed to have those people come alongside me and, and create these services for our community. So we have a writing as a healing art. And you can come come to that class and write about anything, it doesn’t have to be about your grief, you’re given a writing prompt. The facilitator is a Griever herself. But she’s also a retired writing professor and super fun and she buries bring snacks, and she gives us some prompts. And we can write about anything we want. And we can share if we want and we don’t. But we most of us end up sharing, we have yoga nidra, which is mindfulness, you’re literally laying on a blanket with a pillow, and you’re being led through scanning your body, and where you hold your grief. It’s Joe Weston of breathing space has been a dear friend and confidant in this organization. And she leaves that once a month. She doesn’t charge me I have restorative yoga, we’re having a decluttering through grief class this this month are always finding new opportunities for people to come and just experience with no expectations.
Victoria Volk 23:29
And for those listening, this is in only in person like in the Sacramento area correct?
Jill Batiansila 23:34
Most of our offerings are in person. We do have some that are on Zoom. For instance, next month, Joe Weston is going to do her yoga nidra session on zoom so that other people in other areas can experience that are decluttering through grief, which is actually this Wednesday is on Zoom. I have people attending it who are in Colorado and other parts of California. So in though in the winter, we hold them at our space in Elk Grove in the summer, we hold a lot of workshops out at our farm where we grow flowers, which is another another part of the conversation.
Victoria Volk 24:10
No, I’m actually bringing up right now because I saw that in your information. And I think that’s a beautiful idea. So please share.
Jill Batiansila 24:17
It’s one of my favorite parts of this in the summer. We grow flowers out on a local farm, a dear friend of mine, Cliff Wilcox, who’s going to be at this year. Lets me grow flowers, and we give them away all summer long. It’s our outreach portion of Together We Heal community. It gets people involved in being outside we have lots of volunteer opportunities for people to go out there and plant and weed and arrange and deliver flowers. We have different businesses in Elk Grove that are willing to take those jars during the summer on a weekly basis. We bring 10 to 20 jars to a couple places around Elk Grove and people can pick them up for Free. And it’s just a way of encouraging people to start a conversation. So you can walk in, grab a jar, if you want to leave a donation, you can, but we don’t. We don’t ask for that. And it’s, it’s an opportunity for them to bring flowers to someone who they know are experiencing stress or anxiety loss doesn’t have to be through grief through death. But we’re all grieving something right now. We live in this broken world. And with everything that’s happened in the last couple of years, all the uncertainty, there’s so much grief, there’s loss of normalcy. So the flowers are a way to say, I’m not sure what to say to you. But here’s some flowers. And Aren’t they pretty, and they were grown for you. Everybody that put these together had you in mind for them. And I’m thinking of you. And I’m here, the flowers are started by seed about now right now we’re underwater because it’s, it’s been a tumultuous January. And we will have to start from scratch scratch. It’s looking pretty muddy out there right now. But we grow them by seed. And then it during the summer, we have you pick days, so people can go out there and pick them themselves. And I will tell you, it’s magic. That place out there. The farm Cliff Wilcox lets me do whatever I want. He doesn’t charge me because he’s so sweet. And I love him. And we have our wellness retreats out there, we had a wonderful wellness retreat in the fall. And we’re having another one in April. And that wellness retreat was just come and be here with us. We had massage and yoga, we had nutritional components, we had the writing, and it was catered music, and it was beautiful. And and people just got to be outside and and be open to new experiences that they wouldn’t have normally found. And so that is a lot of what we do. Also it is if you trust us, we trust the people. And it’s a it’s a safe space, and just come and experience it for 45 minutes. And if you don’t like it, you never have to do it again. But maybe it will be your saving grace.
Victoria Volk 27:10
For those listening who are might be thinking, oh my gosh, this speaks to me, I would love to do something like this. But I feel so overwhelmed. Where do I even start and you kind of spoke to how it started for you. But for those who are thinking that this could be something for them right for making purpose out of their pain, a nonprofit, not for profit, things like that. How do you make money, right? Because it’s not for profit, but how do you how does it fund itself? I mean, that might be a big question for that it might have.
Jill Batiansila 27:42
It is and I will tell you I am I am the first to say I do not fundraise well, but we are funded all by donors, all by donors. So and my my executive board and I are working on how do we do that better. But our story entices people to be a part of this. So we’ve got local organizations that want to be a part of this. It’s something that is needed. And it’s something that I think our not just our community, but all communities lack is that support. And so we have recurring donors that we we would love to have more recurring donors, because it’s a small portion, you know, it’s $10 a month, it’s $20 a month, it’s whatever you want. And then we do have some big one time donors who are part of big day of giving, which we’re excited, this is the second year that we get to be a part of big day of giving, which isn’t a day for people to just remember, they’re nonprofits that they have a heart string to, and be a part of that I want people to want to be a part of together, we heal community. Most of our our costs are very low. Our classes that we offer, sometimes they’re free, sometimes they’re $5, our new pick days, generate a little bit of money or wellness retreat, generate a tiny bit, but we really rely on donors who want to be a part of this who who want to put their name on together, we heal community. And I think that’s the neat part about it is you can be the reason why people get help. There are people that that have money to give and they don’t know where to give it or that or they’re not invested because emotionally invested. I think part of that tied together with heal community is I want to be a part of that. That’s something that is not done. And in grief work in general. I’ve had people ask me, Why do you want to do this all the time? Because I’m here in my grief for a short period of time. I don’t want to stay here. So why why are you doing this? Because this is hard work emotionally, too. When people contact Together We Heal community. It’s me. I’m the first person that ever reach. And it’s hard sometimes. And my answer is, that’s because God put this on my heart. So he has enabled me to have this first touch with people. And, and I’m not the endpoint, I’m just the connector. I’m let’s start here together, I won’t leave you, I’m not going to abandon you. Because I think a lot of people have been abandoned in their grief, they’re alone, their family doesn’t want to talk about it. They can’t find that help. Through the mental health world, you know, therapists are booked. So I’m here as yours land, their first landing point, but I’m not your endpoint.
Victoria Volk 30:42
I love that. And I love how you, I just want to highlight something you said and that if someone who’s listening, if this isn’t something that’s maybe meant for you to create an organization such as you did, you can still volunteer for an organization like this and find some purpose and meaning through your own story, but in giving to others, right?
Jill Batiansila 31:06
Yes, I think it is an overwhelming process to think about starting your own nonprofit. But I think where you can start is in your community, find nonprofits that are already doing it, and just just say, I’m here. Let’s start. Let’s start at Ground Zero. But I’m here and I want to give back and and start from there.
Victoria Volk 31:26
Well, here’s the thing I want to highlight too, is that we all have our own unique strengths. And so even if you aren’t sure, like, Well, I’m not really sure what my gift is, or what my what my thing is about me that is, is awesome. I think you’d find that as you start, you know, it’s like follow the cure your curiosity, follow the nudges, if you feel nudged to, you know, check into something, follow that nudge, follow the curiosity that has been placed within you, right?
Jill Batiansila 31:59
Yes. And I think acknowledge that it might be bigger than you if you feel, you know, I am a very strong Christian, and I pray about every single step I’ve made. Am I Is this what you want me to do God? Is this it? And then asking him again? And again, every single step? Am I doing this? Am I doing this? Selfishly, or am I doing it for someone else, and I asked myself that, because in the end, it’s not sustainable, if I’m doing it for, for myself, has to be for, for others. If God has given me a heart of service, I need to serve it. It fills my cup to serve others to if it’s just one person. And and I’m finding that on I know, it’s weird that social media has been a catalyst to get more people to what we’re offering, what good is it if you’re offering something and nobody’s taken advantage of it? But but our like, Instagram has been a way of finding people all over the world. You know, I look at my, my insights. And I think, wow, I reached somebody in South Africa today. That’s amazing.
Victoria Volk 33:11
I feel the same way. Even this podcast alone, it’s on every continent. And it’s humbling, because it’s something like just an idea. It starts with an idea. And you never know where it’s gonna take you. Yeah. So through your work, and through your own personal experience, what are some unhelpful and hurtful things that hurt you? deeply as you were working through your grief? And I know you had a therapist throughout your life and tech could help you through those things.
Jill Batiansila 33:40
I would say I’m unapologetic about how I feel I’m an open book. If people don’t like how I feel like, I kind of it doesn’t bother me as much. I have. I have had a lot of family members, say, after a death that we had experienced that they should just get over it. Just get over it. It’s been it’s been long enough. It’s been long enough. Why don’t you Why don’t you just move on? And I think that’s been that’s a trigger for a lot of people. Why are you at this point yet? Why aren’t you at that point yet? You know, I’m fine. I’ve gotten over it. The whole you should get over it. Thinking is is very hurtful. So I would say that’s the biggest trigger is that you’re not where someone thinks that you should be. And again, you don’t owe anybody any explanations as to where you are in your in your journey. And I know Germany is a cliche word but it really is a journey. Its ups and downs. It is you’re fine and then you smell somebody’s perfume and it catapults you back. So I think just being strong in in your your process is important to remember because you will have people that do not understand It is not it is not for you.
Victoria Volk 35:02
I think sometimes to people who because I experienced that as well, you know, especially I think with child Grievers especially, I mean, you’ve we’ve been as children, we’ve carried this our entire lives practically. And so people can easily say, oh, you should be over it by now. I mean, that happened when you were a child, you know. And I think what’s interesting is that, and I, I know this specifically, for myself, I had someone say that to me. And what’s interesting is that person has, that persons who passed away the mutual person has their cologne, in the cupboard, in their bathroom. And I thought, that’s interesting. So you never really know the people that are saying those things really could be judging themselves, I should be over it. So you should be over it too. But I’m not. But I’m going to tell you you should be projecting your pain.
Jill Batiansila 36:02
Exactly. And not everybody knows how to really process that. So just like, like any child with a wound, often that wound becomes a way that you that you hurt others.
Victoria Volk 36:16
And so what has your grief taught you?
Jill Batiansila 36:19
That God has made us resilient beings, I’ve spent a lot of time whoring myself over my grave reading, reading the Bible names, my grief has taught me lean on the Lord, the human beings in our world, whether we’re extremely close to them, or their enemies, because they’ve said things that hurt us, human beings are going to disappoint us. So my grief has taught me trust the Lord, read over his word, lean into Him, and He will guide you. So he has guided me in one of my prayers when God set this on my heart. And I literally know the moment that God set this on my heart. And he said, use your pain for purpose. It’s time. He said, You stay in your lane, I’ll bring the right people at the right time. And that that is very important, I will bring the people to you, at the right time, not in my time. So I think that there is a reason why I it’s taken me this long to start this organization, I have had to and I use this word often with people, sometimes you just have to sit and marinate with it. Marinate in your grief, it’s an awful place to be. But without, without that acknowledgement you’re not going to heal. So he has brought because I’ve leaned on the Lord and, and waited for him. He has brought me it’s a gift. I meet someone new through someone else, the power of networking, the power of networking, but God’s the boss of networking. And I’ll meet someone and after I just kind of sit and think, Well, I could have never done that on my own. Never, I could have never met that person. I cannot believe I just met that person. And look at all the good we’re gonna do together. He this person is going to make my organization better.
Victoria Volk 38:30
I love that. I love how you said that. God is the boss of networking. That might be your quotable for this episode. I love it. So let me ask you this, what has what have you learned about yourself? In starting Together We Heal community.
Jill Batiansila 38:49
I will say this. I have been dreaming about this wellness retreat out the farm for probably three and a half years. And last summer. I told my people, all of my volunteers, all of the people that are involved in Together We Heal community. I said we’re gonna make this happen this year. And we threw together together in about three months. And afterwards, one of one of the facilitators came up to me and she said, you know, I’ll be honest, I penciled this in because I thought there’s no way but what I learned is, oh, Jill’s doing it. This is gonna happen. And so I have a lot more confidence in myself that if I follow God’s lead, and do the things that he’s telling me to do, I will not fail. It is I just know God God and I prayed about this. And God said do this, though. I know he’s gonna make it happen. And and so I have learned that I can get a lot accomplished. I am squirrel, I am self proclaimed ADHD child, but I can get a lot done. And a lot of that is because has got an idea that together, God brought in the people, God, God, God brought in the donors. And so God’s leading this. So I, this is this is happening. So not doubt myself, do not I don’t doubt myself.
Victoria Volk 40:15
And that’s great advice for others as well.
Jill Batiansila 40:19
I hope so,
Victoria Volk 40:20
Is there anything else about Together We Heal community or your story, anything we didn’t get a chance to share that you would like to add?
Jill Batiansila 40:32
Well, since we’re on the topic of starting nonprofits, you know, one of my pieces of advice is you can have big goals, but you need to start small. Don’t overwhelm yourself with the end result, start with what you have. First, you can have your five year goals seven year goal and know that that goal will change. When I first started this, I thought it was going to be all for children, because I was a childhood Griever. And so that’s my soft spot is how do we help children that that are needing help, but maybe their parents or guardians don’t know how to get them that help? So I first thought everything I was going to do was just for kids. And, and that now that’s something that I look back at and think oh, well, we didn’t do that at all. Are we going to do that next? Are we so start small, God will bring the right people into place when it’s time. But you start start with what you what you can do at the moment. The flowers started with, I asked the farmer, Hey, can I grow some flowers, I’m not even really sure why. But I just want to, and he said sure. And I threw a hose down a 300 foot row and I grew flowers and weeds. And I picked them myself. And I arranged them and I gave them to my neighbors and my friends and just thought I don’t know what I’m doing. But let’s do this. And now last year, we had over 1600 feet of flowers. We gave away 650 jars ish more, and no idea was going to be doing that. So it’ll be open. But start small.
Victoria Volk 42:17
I want to share something you said just kind of piggyback it because even though you haven’t, your services and what you’ve done haven’t like tailored to children, I think the biggest impact that we can have on children and their grief is as adults, we learn how to process our own. And we we actually do work on our own stuff. Because in doing so we become better parents, we become better individuals in the community. We know how to better support children in their grief, we learn through our own processing, how to better support children, I think really, truly I mean, it starts in the home. And so as if you’re, I can just attest to myself, and maybe you can too is I was a raging mom, because I had a lot of unprocessed grief and a lot of unprocessed anger. And as you become a parent, it brings up all of your insecurities. So to starting a business, right? And I’m sure that starting this nonprofit, it brings up everything, it’s so confronting. And you have no choice but to deal with it or become this. It brings out aspects of you that you are proud of.
Jill Batiansila 43:35
Yes. And, again, I’m a parent of two, oh my goodness, let your children see you cry. Let your children see you be broken. I think that’s important. Now you don’t need to be a hot mess. 24/7 But I think it’s important for them to see you be Human Being human means you’re going to hurt. That expectation that everything’s going to always be okay is not realistic. So how do I show my kids how I’ve coped with with the pains of life. So be open. Don’t be afraid to have those conversations with your kids. Let them see you cry. Oh my goodness. Let them see you cry and let them see you. Work through your struggles and have an open dialogue with them. You know, by him. I’m always telling my kids, if you need, you know, it can be messy. Tell me what’s on your mind. I sit with them. My husband and I pray with them. We have devotions. You know life is raw. And I think it’s important for our kids to see us in that raw mode. You cannot protect your children from pain. You can’t protect yourself from pain, but we need to talk about it. We need to have an open dialogue and it’s ugly.
Victoria Volk 44:54
And we can become better equipped. Absolutely. There are there is knowledge out there. or pick up the book, The Grief Recovery handbook? For starters. I need that book. Yeah, understand grief itself, because as we’ve talked about at the beginning of this episode, which is this is a great way to tie it up is that we simply do not know what to do with it. And so as an adult, if you are angry, and you have a child who is expressing anger on a consistent basis, there are only a mirror. Yes, there are only being a mirror. Don’t be surprised, then when your child is angry if you are an angry parent, and there is the grief that is unprocessed there.
Jill Batiansila 45:37
I think it’s also important to tell them tell children that just because I am dealing with it this way, maybe what sounds what sounds good to you to start, what are you comfortable with starting, you know, I always talk about possibly starting a journal or doing art therapy, let’s get color crayons, depending on their ages. Let’s just get out. But everybody does process grief differently. And that’s important for them to know, hey, I, this is how I deal with grief. And, and but it might not be how you’re most comfortable with dealing with it. So what what do you feel like doing? You know, and and, you know, there, there are lots of ways to word it, because everybody has a different personality and you knew your children best but, but it’s important to know to, for them to find their own unique way that they can process their grief, or their stress or the anxiety. You know, that’s that’s all big, big words right now is anxiety. We’re all having a little bit of that.
Victoria Volk 46:36
And it’s grief.
Jill Batiansila 46:38
And the loss of the loss of that you can you know, walk out the door and expect certain things that’s no longer there.
Victoria Volk 46:46
Yeah, loss of hopes, dreams and expectations and anything we wish would be different, better or more is grave. Yes. So thank you so much for being here and for the work that you’re doing and in your community and the information that you’re sharing and your gift of creating purpose from your pain. Thank you so much.
Jill Batiansila 47:07
Thank you for letting me share.
Victoria Volk 47:09
And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
