Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Healing, Spirituality, Suicide |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
- On this episode of Grieving Voices, I welcomed David Chotka, founder and director of Spirit Equip Ministries. With four degrees and extensive experience as a pastor and conference speaker, David shares insights from his journey through grief personally and within his community.David discusses the challenges pastors face daily in dealing with grief within their congregations. He recounts his first funeral service—a daunting task for someone who had not yet experienced personal loss—and how that “baptism by fire” shaped his understanding of mourning.Our conversation turns to David opening up about a pivotal moment when he lost his brother to suicide. This tragedy occurred just as he was adopting a daughter, adding complex layers to an already emotional time. Despite having to maintain composure for important church services amidst this personal crisis, David candidly describes how the event left him grappling with questions about faith, forgiveness, life after death, and God’s mercy.
In a powerful account of healing in nature two years after his loss, David shares an epiphany that brought peace back into his soul regarding eternal destiny while walking through the Heartlake Conservation Area and reading Psalms 130.
The conversation also touches on navigating sudden losses like suicides within families—emphasizing compassion over judgment—and offers comfort to those wondering about loved ones’ fates after such actions.
Finally, David speaks on divine appointments—the idea that God orchestrates encounters where we can give or receive something significant—and gives listeners insight into finding meaning in seemingly random moments.
This heartfelt discussion provides solace for anyone grieving, highlighting the importance of spiritual guidance during one’s darkest hours.
RESOURCES:
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Finding Peace and Understanding in the Midst of Grief: The Journey of David Chaka
Grief can be a bewildering labyrinth, often leaving us grappling with profound questions about faith, life’s purpose, and our own resilience. In this heartfelt episode of *Grieving Voices*, we were graced by the presence of David Chaka—a man whose personal journey through loss and his role as a spiritual guide offers both solace and insight into navigating the murky waters of sorrow.
David is not just any guest; he brings with him an extensive background as the founder of Spirit Equip Ministries, an authorship that spans five books on spirituality, decades spent pastoring souls seeking comfort, and a voice that has echoed internationally across podiums dedicated to faith. His tenure as chair for the Christian Missionary Alliance’s prayer team in Canada has shaped countless lives—including his own.
Personal Encounters with Grief
When grief knocks on one’s door personally, it carries a different weight. For David Chaka, losing his brother to suicide was such an encounter—one that shook his beliefs to their core yet also led him down a path where he found deeper roots within his faith. He shares how these moments have been pivotal in understanding salvation—not as a checklist but as an intimate relationship with God—a concept offering great comfort to those mourning loved ones lost under tragic circumstances.
Unplanned Moments Leading To Life-Changing Outcomes
In what could have been seen merely as logistical frustration—the no-show moving van—David found friendship and vulnerability while stranded in Elizabeth’s empty apartment. This unexpected delay blossomed into marriage—a reminder that sometimes life’s detours are divine appointments in disguise.
His education under Dr. Gordon Fee further exemplifies this theme—unexpected influences shaping one’s spiritual perspective profoundly. And when called upon to pray for healing against all odds for a fellow student facing deathly illness? The result was nothing short of miraculous—an affirmation reinforcing David’s belief in being open to divine guidance despite personal doubts or hesitations.
Faith Amidst Everyday Life
The stories shared by David resonate deeply because they mirror everyday experiences where faith intersects ordinary moments—like Peter, James John catching fish beyond their wildest dreams at Jesus’ bidding or like ‘Bible-thumper Bob’, whose cancer recovery showed glimpses of heaven before its eventual return grounded us back to earthly realities.
These narratives aren’t just tales; they’re testaments reminding us about responsiveness towards God’s call—even when it seems illogical—and maintaining hope amidst uncertainties inherent in human existence.
Healing Pathways & The Presence Of God
In discussing pathways outlined alongside Maxie Dunham regarding healing prayers—from instantaneous miracles to enduring suffering—it becomes evident that encountering God isn’t limited by specific outcomes but rather defined by walking alongside Him through various journeys toward healing or closure.
David emphasizes experiencing God not only through words but also through non-verbal communication—the peace and joy brought forth even during tribulations signifying His ever-present Holy Spirit guiding our steps towards righteousness irrespective of surrounding chaos.
Extending Love In A Troubled World
As listeners absorb these powerful insights from *Grieving Voices*, it reinforces the notion that living out our calling involves extending love amidst imperfections—not allowing negative church experiences or disillusionment obstruct access to what lies beyond hurt: unconditional love from our Creator capable transforming pain into purposeful engagement within His kingdom here on earth.
For those inspired by this conversation who yearn for more depth within their spiritual walk—you’re invited over at spiritequip.com where you’ll find resources bridging denominational divides while nurturing your inner self for an enriched communion with divinity.
We leave you pondering 1 John 3:2—the promise transformation upon truly seeing God—as we await future content including audiobook chapters promising continued nourishment for your soul-searching quests.
Indeed embracing oneself leads towards fulfillment—but let us remember it is often intertwined intricately with embracing faith even when faced with life’s inevitable grieving voices.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is David Chotka. He is the founder and director of Spirit Equip ministries, an organization devoted to developing training resources. Author of five books, a season pastor, and a conference speaker David has four earned degrees and travel has traveled and taught in countries to groups large and small. He has served as chair of alliance pray, the prayer equipping team of Christian missionary alliance in Canada for more than twenty years and is now committed to serving those who want to develop Their spiritual disciplines one small step at a time. David is married to Elizabeth and together they have two adult children and for fun he plays the piano. Thank you so much for being here.
David Chotka: Thank you, Victoria, for having me on your podcast. I it’s a delight to be here. And
Victoria Volk: I think you are the first pastor I’ve had on the podcast. I’m pretty sure.
David Chotka: Wow. On a topic like grieving, that’s really quite amazing.
Victoria Volk: I think so.
David Chotka: Well, because
Victoria Volk: meetings Two hundred episodes in.
David Chotka: So Wow. But listen, pastor, every day of the week, somebody’s grieving in their churches. Yeah. And they’re coming alongside people, you know, somebody’s died young, somebody’s died old, somebody’s died in between, and that grieving’s reality, left right and center for people like me.
Victoria Volk: I could be wrong. I’m approaching two hundred episodes, so that’s quite a few to go to remember up here and my memory isn’t as sharp as it used to be either. So just going off my memory, I think so. And I think, you know, initially, this podcast did start for grievers who are open to sharing their grief stories.
David Chotka: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And, of course, as a pastor and a minister, you have grief too.
David Chotka: I do. Yes.
Victoria Volk: And that’s really what is that what led you into the work that you were doing? Or What can
David Chotka: I What what led me into the work I’m doing was that’s there’s a remarkable call story that that didn’t actually I should tell you about my first experience of doing a funeral because I had had no losses? So my when I it was the call to the ministry was because I suddenly realized that that was what the Lord wanted me to do. And there’s a long and convoluted story attached to that that and some of that some of those details are just being written now into a little sample that I’m creating called the call. I wanted to put that out. But actually, I haven’t told this story in a podcast. So let me tell you about the first time I wind up doing a funeral. So the denomination I was in, you’re in the states, you’re American. Right? Okay. So it will be like being a night methods down the state. So I was and the in the trajectory there, we were sent to to churches that would have us over the summertime. We we go to school for eight months that we’d be under the tutelage of a pastor locally over the summer season. He’d take a little vacation. We’d spell him off. That kind of thing. But most of his time would be spent teaching in mentoring us. And so I got to my very first ever summer field. And the the pastor there had decided to take his vacation, and there was a methodist lay preacher from England in his congregation. And he said, look, if you’re in trouble, you can call up Ray over there. He’s he’s e stepping in for me all the time when there’s trouble. And so he said, but just in case, you need to walk down the street and there’s a lady there named Joyce. We haven’t had a funeral in this town. It’s a young town. We haven’t had a funeral list down in four years, but Joyce was the one who always does all the arrangements. And if something should happen, if there’s a car accident or something like this, You can always just call up Joyce and she’ll make sure everything’s good. So I went down the street, and I visited Joyce. And her and her husband were very cordial and very kind and nice to me. And we had a wonderful evening visit. And then then I I went to meet Ray, and I had a great chat with Ray. Ray took a one week vacation and enduring the one week vacation when the other passenger was on vacation, Joyce died. So I had to I had never had a loss. So my very first ever experience of doing a funeral was the lady who took care of doing funerals when both the pastor and the late preacher were weighed. So I wound up talking to one of the elders and there’s a lady in that church who was a leader in the congregation. And she worked like crazy to try and figure out what to do. And, you know, they call different pastors from all across the region. And in the end, you know, we figured this thing out and got it done. But, I mean, it was really hard for me because I’d never personally, at that point in the game, I’d never had to face death. It wasn’t until years later that I had a personal loss. But So it was a bit of a comedy of errors to get started like that. But that actually, there were four funerals in two weeks. Four funerals in two weeks. And they hadn’t had a funeral in that church in four years. And when the lead guy was away, the student minister got four funerals. So It was a crazy kind of a thing. Anyway, the day when the day was all said and done, I learned a lot from people who were on the other side of grieving, and that was, of course, my first experience. Of burying someone. I’d never done that before. And you can see the change in expression that there was a moment. And all four of those, and these are my no. Within two weeks, I watched this. Every time the body was lowered into the ground, that was the moment. Where the loss became real, just absolutely crystal clear clear real. And that for me was the moment when I realized that if you’re gonna extend care, that’s the time. You come along and you stand with somebody who’s in trouble when that when that casket goes down and they’re still there and they start to cry. Sometimes they want you there, sometimes they don’t want you there, sometimes you you touch their elbow gently. Sometimes you just hold off and wait until they want to say something. I agree. The way I describe it, you can is this an audio visual one or just visual is this just audio?
Victoria Volk: It’s both.
David Chotka: It’s both. Okay. So I’ll I’ll describe it for the audio people. It’s like you put your hand on their their waist and pull them close while you put your hand on their face and push them away. There’s this They don’t know if they want company or if they want to be alone. And sometimes in two seconds, their view changes. Right? Because grief is a weird animal life. I described it as a strange animal. Never know when it’s gonna purr where it’s gonna bite you. You’re just not sure. So that was that was my very first ever experience of dealing with death and my own my own personal loss came when my brother took his life. He was I I just adopted my daughter. We discovered that we could not my wife would be in danger if we had a second child. We had one born biologically.
And then it just became clear that it almost killed her. Just about killed him too, that both of them just about died. So I guess you could call that grief too because I realized we could not have another. And there was a long journey toward adopting that to happen in the middle of that. And, you know, and we actually vastly I’d be ready to adopt a she wouldn’t. And my wife would be ready to adopt and I wouldn’t. And it was this kind of up and down kinda crazy thing where we were navigating our own emotions, not quite sure what to do with this. And then in the course of time, We adopted her daughter. But just as we adopted her, my younger brother, who had been unsettled all of his days, we we were told in the adoption, what you have to do is you have to, you know, you know, how to say this. You close the doors to everybody except your nuclear family so that you can bond to the child for a good month, a month and a half. We adopted her when she was a year old and she had to rebound to us. And so we had there’s a whole bunch of adoption strategies that you do in order for that child not to feel abandoned by the foster family that they had, etcetera, etcetera. And we had to do that. And so we didn’t see anybody for a month. And then then the social worker told us that the best course of action after that is to introduce your new family member to your immediate family and my parents and my brother lived about an hour and a half away. So we got in the car, we drove down. And we had a beautiful magical, wonderful, glorious day with my brother who had been pretty troubled about lots of things. It was it looked like the the the page had turned and so on. And I was in a new church. I had been the pastor of that church from September right through to that time, which was March. It was the day before a good Friday. I don’t remember the number of day. I just remember the emotion of the event when my dad called and said that my brother had killed himself. Inside my parents home. Mhmm. And I had to get in the car and cancel my Thursday night service. It was gonna be my very first one in that congregation. I had to help my dad grieve while his dead body was in the house, and then they called the police. I had to call the police to make this thing happen. And I watched them take the body out of the home. And that oh, man. Then I had to do good Friday, then I had to do a resurrection Sunday because I didn’t have a capable associate to be able to handle those services, and then I hit the wall and just began to cry in. No pastor wanted to be a guest on Good Friday or you’re sending because they were all busy. Right? These are they’re all that’s the highlight of the church here. And I had to moner on through this kind of awful shock and did. I did what I had to do and thank the Lord. I had already prepared my messages and I simply had to work through whatever whatever was happened. I did tell my church, I just had been through this traumatic thing. If I get crazy here, if I do something odd, forgive me. I’m gonna molt I’m gonna get through these these two services. And then I’m gonna find somebody to take that service a week after, and I just need to stop. And to old man was it hard. It was just hard. But the the hard thing about that one was the suddenness. He was thirty nine. And he he played you know, I got a little son at that point, and he was picking up my son and wrestling with him and putting him in a tree and climbing a tree and walking along the fence tops. And We went to a baseball diamond and threw a ball back and forth with him while we were wheeling our new daughter up and down the the sidewalk as she was getting used to this beautiful spring day. It was a gorgeous lovely memory. Suddenly destroyed by this experience of somebody taking his life. And oh, and and then I and of course, in in the context that I’m in, I had no choice except to speak well and highly about, you know, about the the the the violation of Jesus on the cross and then the joy of the resurrection. While I’m in this anguish about what to do with my brother who’s who’s left a son behind and a wife and and he’s dead. And my parents who don’t know what to do. So that was my first significant loss. That was the first one that we I mean, I had friends who died and I had buddies who died and I had lots of parishioners who passed away and I had to bury a little two year old who died in a wounds tumor.
That was the first one that really hit my heart, but in terms of my personal life, that one. And, you know, it was like, I I I just and listen, I the last two funerals that I have done, and I’m a pastor and you do them every now and then, And the last two in a row were were her suicides. One of a guy, twenty nine years old, left his beautiful wife and son. And the the kid was, like, six months old. And the other was of this family that I knew from years ago, I was visiting Vancouver. And this funeral was gonna happen, and the widow asked if I do it because I had been significant in their lives back in the day. And both of them were, you know, it’s irrational when this kind of thing happens. It doesn’t make any kind of sense. So how do you navigate that? How do you how do you I’ll just tell you that with the with the suicide personally, it was like the sky was gray for the next two years.
Even if it was a beautiful warm, sunny, gorgeous day. And my home was about two blocks from a conservation area, it was kinda nice to be there. And I I started to do what I, you know, long walks and I started and I I don’t know what you do with with grief. For me, I have to speak. I can’t just sort of sit there and stuff it. I can stuff it for a week and then I explode with speech. That’s what happens to me. So I would go for these long walks and make sure that nobody was around that that I’d talk out loud while I was doing this walk in this conservation area. And for me, faith is is part of the answer, but it didn’t answer all my questions because, you know, I I said Is he gonna have it? Is he gonna have it? He took his life. That’ll shout not kill. Is that real? And what about it? Did he throw it away? Did, you know, did this is this is the stuff that goes through the brain with somebody who’s had a sudden loss like that. And, of course, if you’ve done two hundred podcasts, you know, people from all different stages and stages, whether they have faith or don’t have faith. They they wanna know what’s the destiny of the lost here. Is is there an afterlife? Is is it exists or is it just illusion? Is it real? Well, what about? Is there a god? What is this guy in the presence of that god? Or is there a devil?
You know? Why did this crazy guy do this crazy thing. And all those crazy thoughts, I’m sure you’ve heard them in two hundred podcasts. But I remember the moment, I was walking through the Heart Lake Conservation area, two blocks from my home. And I was reading the psalms, and I got to Psalm, I think it’s one hundred and thirty, and the the text of the psalm was this. Lord, if you should count sins, no one could stand. I thought to myself, absolutely right. You know, as I’m I’m walking and refreshed and and I’m trying to get two things. I’m trying to get my head cleared. I’m trying to get past my emotional fog.And the sky was still great even though it was a beautiful glorious day in early spring. And there was just traces of snow in in the parts of the of the woodland where the the leaves had covered the snow, that kind of thing. The day was brisk and sunny. And I remember I was reflecting on that verse from that song. And my foot broke a stick in the pathway, and it went snapped like that. And my brother died by hanging. And I know that he went snap like that too, and it was an instant death and that kind of crazy thought was going through my brain. And then suddenly as that thing went snap, I said, well, life is just like that. You don’t know if you’re gonna be living or dying. You could step in the street and get killed by a car accident in a second. You know, not even be aware this crazy things happen. And then that scripture popped back into my head. And I thought to myself, do you know? When my brother was an idiot. It would take me two weeks to forgive him. And so and and then but I know this about God. If you were in the middle of a crazy, ridiculous, and even awful action like aptic suicide and you realized that you were wrong as a help, in a second God hears. And then I realized, God’s hands were better than mine, much better than mine. And then I said, alright. I can commend his soul to you. And, like, you know, I was participating in his in his burial. I mean, I did the service with the pastor from my parents’ church. And I I mostly said, but I read the scripture and participated in that thing. And then I, you know, but I had not it would that that the issue wasn’t closed for me. It wasn’t done for me. Until the moment when that twigs snapped. Two years out, walking through a conservation area, I realized in my hard heart, that it’s the the rest of the verses this. If the Lord should count sins, who could stand? Nobody. But with you, there is mercy. That’s the next line. And I said, okay, Lord, I get this. He called himself a believer. He was a lousy believer, but he called us a believer. Right? And so and so listen. He believed in the same God I knew. I am I know this about you God. I know your nature. If in a second somebody says help and cries out, you do. You’re like a dog with a bone. If somebody cries out to you for mercy, your mercy gets sent in the next fraction of a second. That’s not true for me or for most humans. Most of us need time to forgive. Most of us need time to work through the reconciliation steps that are involved in that. Not so with the god I love. And so that was the moment when suddenly the peace turned back inside my soul. When I realized that I’m not God and I’m not the judge and he’s a whole lot better at it than I am. And now I will make a comment because I want people to hear me loud and clear about this suside thing and the thing that I just raised. People wonder if thou shalt not kill this violent and if that ruins somebody’s salvation of them. Let me say this as tenderly as I can. In the Christian faith, actually in Jewish faith too, I can’t speak for the other ones. I’ll just speak for the two that I know well. Your relationship with the God that you love is the basis of your salvation. Not whether you’ve been an idiot at the end of your life.
Alright? Now let me be as clear as I can. I think suicide is the wrong thing to do for lots and lots and lots of reasons. I have stood with families. I just I’m standing with two right now, who just did this. And the person who takes their life usually thinks they’re doing somebody in favor, It’s not true. The whole chaos just sort of explodes. All around the husband, the wife, the son, the daughter, the cousins, the uncles, the aunts, the parents, the friends, the workplace, everything. Just spins out of control for a very long time, varying degrees depending on how much you were attached to the person. But when the day is done, it is not the answer that you want to embrace. That being said, for all the listeners out there who have lost someone through their speech. It is not the fact that somebody makes a snap decision and chooses that or even if they make a plan when they’re in some sort of a weird state of mind. It is the relationship you have that you got, you serve. That determines your internal destiny. So I that for what it’s worth, I I put that in front of your audience because I know people who listen to this particular kind of podcast are trying to figure out how to make sense after a loss.
That’s what they’re doing. So
Victoria Volk: Very well said. Very well said.
David Chotka: Well, listen, I live through it. It’s it’s I live through it. If it’s yeah. So in the last two services that I did, where I did these two burials for and and actually because he was young, and because he was married, because he had a son. I could speak to that.
In fact, I just I had what I call a divine appointment yesterday. It’s funny because, you know, I have things to do, places to go people to see the world to win all that kind of thing. And I have done this general for this lady. Her name is Shentel. And she was a friend of a friend of a friend who called me to do a funeral because they thought it was the right thing to do. And I didn’t have proper contact information for her. And so I wanted to do a follow-up and I had not been able to because I couldn’t And so, actually, this is a crazy thing. On Friday, I said, God, I need to follow-up with this woman. Shentel needs pass through care after the after the thing. She I I’d be in touch with her.
How do I do that? Amen. And the next day, I went to a little free show that was being offered down at the event center down the street. And I walked in and I didn’t even wanna be there. My daughter wanted to go that thing. And I went because I had to go, you know, like I said, and I sit down and Shatjel sits down beside the high pastor, Dave. And that’s in a city of two hundred thousand. Wow. So I made the connection yesterday. One of the things I teach is I pray for a divided appointment today. I asked the Lord to shape my circumstances so that I walk into something that I could not and did not plan. Where God gets the glory or where something is needed that I can contribute to or where I need to receive what I cannot receive unless I have the divine point. Because I know this. God is at work everywhere, absolutely everywhere. And when we can see one or two things happening, God is doing millions. God. But if I could if I could see one thing that God is doing and enter Internet, I know that I’m on the right track. And so when COVID started, I I started to pray that, okay, God, I want one divine appointment a day, at least one. And sometimes I’ll get three and four. But I don’t feel the day is complete unless I’ve had one of those because I’ve prayed that prayer. So that was my divine appointment yesterday. That’s what happened yesterday.
Victoria Volk: I love that. I absolutely love that. You know what? And you might call it synchronicities or what have you. Right? We don’t we often have these things these moments like you said like you shared that happen throughout our lives and maybe in our days. And we maybe pass them off as insignificant or might think of but they’re not.
David Chotka: You know, just they’re not old. No. It’s true. It’s
Victoria Volk: Or you might not even give much thought in the moment, but then later, like, that’s really kinda cool if that happened, but we we don’t think about of it just being, like, this
David Chotka: Divine in nature. I’ll I’ll just say, yeah. Yeah. That’s right. That God did that. I’ll do that. That’s right. I can just say with you. Every significant thing I’ve done in life, every single significant thing that has happened was not my idea. And including the girl that I married. So here’s you’re gonna have with the girl I married. This this is the craziest thing. My heart was broke when the girl that I wanted to marry married somebody else. And I was in tremendous grief. That was another grief that happened there. And so I wound up saying, God, oh, God help me. I’m I’m in a mess here. And so So I wound up going to a a bible school called Regent College in Vancouver to you. It’s a graduate level of seminary. And it had a training component for people who were in careers that didn’t have theological education wanted to do a year out. And so, and I was a pastor and I had I had two degrees before this and I had my third degree there. Anyway, it looked like I was going to school because I wanted to improve my myself. But the real reason I was going there because it was a safe place to be a wreck. And as it turned out, when I was gonna move, I was living in Alberta, and the school was in British Columbia. And there was a good twelve hour drive from one place to the other.
And moving costs are expensive and students don’t have a lot of money, you know, that kind of thing. And I was a pastor and they didn’t pay much, you know, so it’ll just be blunt here. So I was looking for the cheap skateway to move that one of the things across the country. And there was a lady in my congregation who was also moving to the to a different school, but she was going to Vancouver. And she knew somebody in Edmonton that she was gonna be a roommate with because she was moving to Vancouver.
And we started asking about costs, you know? And how can we, you know, how can we pay this thing? And I I I did three or four quotes, and she got three or four quotes. And I said to this lady Ruth, why don’t you find out what it would cost if we put our two households together? I don’t have much. I could shove it in your garage. And it was the same price. And so that meant half price for both of us if we did this. And then she talked to the third person, and it was about ten percent more to move three than it was to move one. And so that’s a significant savings. Right? So I put all my stuff inside Ruth’s garage, and then Ruth had it moved down to Edmonton, and then we, you know, then we moved from Edmonton to. And I and I what I did. I got myself a tent and a sleeping bag. And, you know, and I I tented across British Columbia because it’s beautiful.
You know what? Then what that was it was a solo vacation, but it was great people. Oh, men’s. It’s a gorgeous province. Beautiful lakes and rivers and streams and mountains and trees and all gorgeous outside. So anyway, I get all the way to Vancouver. And the plan was I would show up on the day of the move at ten o’clock in the morning, and I would help the movers get stuff into their their their share department. And then I would direct the driver across town to help move in my stuff. And We save a lot of money and praise the Lord. You know? So I show up. Ruth isn’t there because she has to finish her her teaching issues you teach her up in that position. And she had to finish out this thing. She had a summer school course, she was teaching. But Elizabeth and her cousin were there cleaning the apartment out, getting her ready for the move.
And I show up, and I walk in, and we shoot the breeze, and we wait all day, and the moving van doesn’t come. And we’re hanging together. And, you know, in those days, there were no cell phones. Right? And they had in Vancouver, they didn’t have closed in phone booths. They had little round things that you put change in. And if you wanna do a long distance call, that was a lot of nickels and dimes and quarters. So so she calls from that phone. It gets her dad and said, dad, did you call the company? And he said, okay.
And they said they had he had a breakdown. He’d be there the next day at ten in the morning. And, okay. You forget one day. You know, and they’re gonna pay her hotel cost, and I have a room to stay in with my cafe stuff, so I’m fine. Come back the next day. There’s no moving van. Third day, no moving van. Fourth day. No moving. Yeah. Now we’re in the better business bureau after these guys, you know, trying to track down where this truck is. And so then her Elizabeth’s cousin had to go back to work. I mean, she had she had four days off and she took the four days. And I’m sitting in an empty apartment without so much as a tea bag. We’re saying, you know, there’s we’re there’s nothing to sit on. There’s a stairway in what we took turns sitting on that. I had a camper chair that I brought in. And I’d sit in the camper chair or on the step and we’d alternate this. And we spent all day a single man and a single lady inside this part. And my heart was broke because the girl I wanted to marry married somebody else, you know what? And after about three days of this, of course, we don’t know each other with strangers. And I said to her, look, just for the record, I’m a pastor. No, by the way, anything with a high voice and discouraged. I am not interested at all. I am no desire. My heart is broke. I just don’t wanna do this. And she heaped a big sigh of relief, and she said, well, for the record, I had an old boyfriend and he stalked me. And it was terrible. We had to get the police after him. I said, oh, brother. Well, look, I have two brothers. I had two brothers. That I no. I’m really my stolen. I have two brothers. And I don’t and my mom comes from a very conservative traditional Ukrainian household. She wears a head covering and walks behind my dad. Canadian girls aren’t interested in that. Neither American girls and most girls on Earth aren’t anyway. And so she said, I said, look, I don’t understand females at all. And she said, look, I have two sisters and my dad’s quiet. My mom ran the house and, you know, I don’t understand males at all. I said, look, I need a sister.
And she said, well, I need a brother. Thank you very much. And so we decided to become friends because we’re stuck in this apartment. We were there for ten consecutive days, ten days in that empty apartment. And finally, the guy showed up. And as it turned out, he had decided he was a casual driver who was hired by the moving company, and he put his son in the in the van to go through the BC interior. And he said, this is beautiful. I’m going fishing, and he took his son fishing for ten consecutive days with our stuff in the back of his And so I wound up meeting this lady and getting to know her. And, of course, by the time you get to day four or five, you start sharing deep things. See?
We have no choice. We’re stuck in that room. So in the course of time, I married the girl. But it’s that that’s how it started. It wasn’t even a planned thing. And every and listen, that’s the most important decision in life you can make who’s gonna be your life partner. And I I wasn’t my idea to be stuck in an empty apartment for ten days, you know, waiting for a moving bed. Being forced to have a conference when I was not I was still tender and broken over my own thing, you know, this this whole thing with this girl with married somebody else. And she was in the same as it turned out, this this whole thing turned into. First of all, who are you? To, oh, I guess we’re gonna be friends. Oh, let’s let’s get each other’s back while we’re in the middle of this. I actually prayed with the girl about girls I could take out when my heart started to saw. And then the course of time, she got mad when I gave him one of those names, and she picked dandelions out of the front yard for four hours while she realized she loved me. Then she told me, and then we got married and so on. But regardless of this, it was this it that and, actually, even the school that I wanted to go to, I didn’t so I wanted to go going there. And I had this desire to study your particular book of the bible where there’s a high concentration of holy spirit and unclean spirit language. And I discovered to my great surprise nobody had done the research on that. In all of scholarship, from, you know, five hundred years out, did nothing in French, German, or English. And I wound up going to that school because I like the school, but the guy who was assigned to me was writing the very first book in human history on that topic. And I didn’t choose the guy It was doctor Gordon Fee who wrote this anthology on the holy spirit in the Pauline literature. And I am in that book, but again, I didn’t know who the guy was I was looking for a competent scholar in a good school. That’s all I was doing. And the next thing, you know, I’m with the world’s finest, Paul and spirit scholar, best one on the planet. He’s gone to his reward now, but I will tell you his works are groundbreaking. We wind up being the head of the new international commentary series of the new testament. He wound up writing a huge anithology and holy spirit and a smaller one, they became standard reading in every seminary across the earth. And but I I didn’t try to do that. It was it wasn’t my idea. You know, anyway, the point I’m making here is that in the realm of faith, the intangible is always around us.
Always. You can cooperate with god’s movement, or you can fight it. Now, actually, the the helium prayer book that I wrote, I didn’t make up plan to write a book on healing prayer. It wasn’t me. In fact, the way I wind up doing my first ever healing prayer wasn’t my idea either. And so let me I’d love to tell you that story. Can I can I tell you that story? Sure. Okay. Well, here’s what happened. So I was a seminary student in my tradition. And and and my tradition was a mixed bag of people. There’s some who are what they call supernaturalists and some who are our cessationists believe those gifts of the spirit of cease. And some who said, oh, by the way, that was a pre scientific culture. And they didn’t know how else to describe it. So they attributed to God what was, in fact, a natural phenomena, that kind of thing. Yeah, these three streams going into the school. And I remember going into and we’re a new cohort, you know, and there’s a whole bunch of us that are all excited about going into the ministry and training. About thirty five of us who were swapping notes. And then after about two weeks to figure out who’s in which camp. Right? So, anyway, I I go into the class, and one of the props says this thing about Jesus walking on the water. He said, oh, as a pre scientific coach, and we know that Jesus didn’t actually walk on the water. And I said, wait a minute. I wanna just take a moment here and tell you, I really do believe that he did. It’s it’s I know it defies science and logic. And I’m a science guy, my best marks for science and physics and math and biology and so on. But I believe in the miraculous. And there was a guy in the class who was a first class jokester that the guy was hilarious. All you’d have to do is look at your sideways and the whole room would explode and laughter. And if he told a joke, then it was, how do I describe it? It’s like throwing a humor grenade into the room, waiting for the explosion to happen, and everybody would laugh so hard, it would hurt. You know? So I I say this thing about the miracle being true. And this guy cracks a joke, and everybody in the room starts to laugh. But the joke was at my expense. He was making fun of my believing that Jesus walked in water. Right? So anyway, whether you believe in that or not, this is beside the point for the sake of the story. So here we go.
So I go into one class after the class after the class. And whenever there’s one of these moments where the scripture is being said, it’s it’s not really true or it’s not historically accurate or this is primitive culture or whatever. I would defend scripture and the guy would tell joke. And this went on. It’s been on for months. Right? And I I then there came a defining moment and I said to myself, Yep. I’m never gonna be his friend. It’s not gonna happen. And I had a great class three times when we had to cross the class and was held at a different school. And one day, I was walking across this plaza, and there was a lovely classmate. And I called her Susie in the book. I’ve lost touch with her, but I I grew up in in I don’t have a permission to use it really, but she stops me and she says, David, how are you doing? And she and I’ll just tell you about this girl. She was a very sweet kind, other centered person. You know, that phrase do what others should have them do what to you. That was her write down to the toe nails. Always always others centered, always kind, always consider it. Always well mannered, always, you know, how do I say this?warmly caring. That’s the best way to describe it. Anyway, I’m walking across this class and I said, hey, Susan. How you doing? Said, I’m fine. I’m going to my Hebrew. I said, I’m going to my Greek. And she said, oh, okay. Hey, you know the class committee. I said, oh, yeah. I know. And she said, well, you see that hospital? Six blocks down. And I said, yeah. She said, well, he’s in there. And actually, I I just have to say this victory. I didn’t feel bad for about two minutes. So I had to abandon my stinking Ozzie attitude. Right? Now she didn’t see that, but it was going on exactly. Anyway, Finally, I looked at her. I said, oh, listen, what’s up? And she said he has phlebitis. I said, what’s that? And then she described it. She said, he’s got a clot in his arm. It’s in his vein. If the clot breaks free, it’ll travel to one or three places, the brain, the heart, or the lung. If it gets to any of those, you’re dead ninety five times out of a hundred. And I thought, oh, man, that’s bad. I said, I’m so sorry. Is he getting good care? You know, in Canada, healthcare is free. So I said, is he getting good care? He said, yeah, he’s in the hospital, now it’s university hospital. It’s a good one. I said, oh, okay. And I said, well, okay. Thanks for telling me. And she said, wait, I have something to say to you from him. Yeah. I went to see him and he asked me to ask you something. I said, oh, what do you ask? She said, he wants you to come and pray for it. I said, what? What kind of craziness is that? And so you know, and I said, I’m not going. And she said, why aren’t you going? I said, you have seen it. He’s been cruel. He’s mocked me in front of our peers on a regular basis. Every time I just say anything about the scripture being historically accurate, you know. And so and so she said, you know, he has been cruel. I said, yeah. Said, okay, I’ll talk to him. I said, well, I’m not going that way, I went to my class. And the next day, I see her in the coffee lounge in school.
Right? And we’re shooting a braze about this type of thing. And she said, well, listen, I I went see the Canadian in the hospital. And he’s terribly sorry that he did what he did to you. Would you go and see him? I said, I’m not going. Because now, There were three reasons why I wasn’t going. Number one was the one I’ve made to you. He mocked me in front of our peers, and it it it hurt. It really did hurt. The second was that I had never met anybody healed by what the Bible calls the prayer faith. I didn’t know anybody. I’d seen the crazies on television, slapped people on the forehead, screaming. And throwing hankies in the air. But I think that was a helpful model. Now the third thing is, I did I had not been trained in this. I didn’t I received no training. I didn’t know and I didn’t know if it was for today or not. I just didn’t know. But, you know, so I I I just told her I’m not going. And the next day, I’m walking across the same three times a week Plaza. And there she is going to her class. And she said, oh, by the way, did you go and see our friend in the hospital? I said, I’m not going. Now, Victoria, have you ever been told off by your mother? This is what the girl looked like. You know what I’m saying that you you get the fire in your eyes and you get the anger. Coming out of your pores and, you know, this girl outside in front of a crowd of people who are walking by, yelled at me at the top of your life. So he stopped her foot. The fire came out of her, you know, her visits, you know, and she gave that meeting. She used my middle initial. She knew a middle initial. She said David, our shotgun. Aren’t you gonna no. Aren’t you going around this school saying that the Bible is the word of God that’s supposed to be obeyed? I said, yes. She said, well, how about this? I was sick and you visited me. That’s what the Bible says. That’s what Jesus says and I thought, oh, No. We’re gonna have to go and see the guy. I’ve fell below eleven in my center. And I thought, okay. I’ll go. But it says sick and visit.
It doesn’t say sick and prayed. She said, whether it’s visitor, whether it’s prayed, he asked for you to go. So go. So I finished my class. Then I walked to six blocks.
I got to the hospital many times. And he was in a bad way, just, you know, he had monitors on him and, you know, the the tubes were going into his arms and and the sound the beeping sounds of the monitors were happening every couple of, you know, couple of minutes and The nurse chargers walked in drop, so medication watched him take it, you know, in the short time I was there. Anyway, he’s why does it go? He’s obviously terrified. And, you know, he and he told me that the clot had not shrunk.
It was still large. And I so I talked to him about the weather. Because I didn’t know what to do. I’d never done it before. Greer than your average rookie, you know, just just did not a clue. So I did the visit thing. I I talked about the weather. Then I asked him about his coursework and he was keeping up. And I said, well, I visited you now. I can go.
And he stopped and he looked at me and he said, wait. Aren’t you? Aren’t you gonna pray? And I said before I even consider that question, I have to ask you one of my own, why? Every single time I’ve said anything about the miracles of Jesus and healing or about the Lord’s miraculous life or about the cross being serious about the resurrection or anything to do with the faith. You have made me a laughing stock. Why? Do you want me to pray for you? And he burst into tears and he began to weep and he said, I’m twenty seven years old, the clock is big in my arm. If that clock breaks free, I’m dead.
That I don’t want to die. Won’t you please pray? Let your god heal me. And I mean, what are you gonna do? I mean, it was obvious the guy really didn’t mean it. But I still had not a sweet clue. What to do? I’ve never been dragged. It’s only way. What I then I remember, oh, the Bible says Jesus put his hand on people. Right? They did that. So I said, well, look, can I come or can I put my hand over you? He said, yeah, you could do that. I said, which arm is it? He said left arm above the elbow. So I went around to his side, and I put my hand over his left arm. Right where that embolism was he said was located. And I put my other hand on his yet. And then I don’t know, honestly, to this day, I can’t remember what I prayed, Victoria. And I’m sure it was an honest prayer. But it was pretty pathetic. Oh, God helped something like that. And I but here’s what happened in the middle of that prayer. Well, I don’t remember the words, but I remember the defining moment. The room filled with presence That’s the only way I can describe it. It was like compassion, filled the air, married together with love and fire. And both of us looked because something had happened, you know. It’s it’s one thing to just have a little prayer and lead the robot. We both locked eyes and we knew something was happening. And then that fire filled my soul and I cried a hot tear in the corner of my right eye. And I felt this energy rising inside of me and focus. The only way I can describe this, total complete focus on him and on God’s love freedom and how the Lord wanted him to receive a miraculous healing. And so then I said, oh, God healed this, something like this. God healed this man, and while I had my hand on his arm, that energy float down my arm and went into his. He looked at me and he said, what is that fiery presence? I said, spirit of Jesus, he’s making you well. And I ran out of the room right after that. For a lot of reasons, never one and never my life felt anything like that. Never.
Secondly, I didn’t know if I was even supposed to pray that way. Because I’ve not resolved the issue theologically. I I just didn’t know. And thirdly, I was terrified he was gonna make be. And I didn’t know if he’s gonna be. I mean, all these reasons are floating in my head to run out of the room. The next day, I’m in the school. And so is he? I said, you’re here? He said, I am. I said, what happened? And and then he he he it it was a nineteenth century stone building and he shoved me in one of these stone corners behind the column, and he looked in every direction, you know. Therese the floor hard everything. And then he said, that prayer. Changed my life. I said, thank you, and I ran away because I still I I I had the time to process it, you know? And then I went to my next class that he was in, we had three classes in common. And I said something that defended the scripture and he stood up to tell the joke. And he made fun of not believing. And the whole class exploded in laughter but the laughter was at the expense of unbelief, not faith. And he did that in rig class. I was with him, and then I heard from classmates that he was doing that in other classes where I was not present. And I didn’t know. So that story that I just told you, that’s in the healing prayer book that that prompted the conversation between you and I get on the the podcast here. So anyway, we had the summerfield thing and he I had to go away for four months and he walks up to me, he passes me a piece of paper with his phone number on it. And he says, if you’re in trouble, you’re trouble. You call me. You call me. I said, whoa. Okay. So I went to wait to wait to interview. Had a marvelous time, because it’s one of those times where you’re you’re looking at the new thing and you’re learning all kinds of marvelous things. And I learned how to preach a sermon, I learned how to visit people. I did I participated in a wedding, you know. Then I had four funerals. I had those four funerals. But the pastor wasn’t there and I learned how to do that. And then, of course, he came back from vacation way unpacked all the learning I discovered how to do various things. Anyway, I get back to school. And he walks up to me and he says, you didn’t call me. I said, I didn’t have any trouble. And he said, if you’re in trouble, you call me, you know, it’s always a little okay. Anyway, a couple months in, there’s a party for the students. Right? And we’re all gathered together, and we’re talking this and that. We’re just shooting a breeze. About nothing because if you do it apart, you have a little laugh, you know what? I was standing with him and his wife and this girl who had asked me in the first place. Because that girl and this man’s wife were great bunnies. Anyway, the two girls look at him and begin to get me elbow. You know, you’re you’re gonna have to tell Chuck what happened. Tell Chuck. Tell Chuck. Tell Chuck. He said, oh, I don’t wanna tell Chuck to what happened. And then eventually, he did. And he said, right after you left, the charters walked in. And I said, I can go home now. My friend from the bible’s book, he’s come here. He’s prayed in Jesus’ hand. And the charge nurse says, we don’t do things like that around here. We gotta run tests. He said, well, run the test then. And so they did because it was it was actually due for them. Every trace of phlebotis was gone from his body. And it had been big the day before every trace was gone. His wife picked him up. He was discharged from the hospital after all the tests confirmed that he was well. He went home and, of course, he’s thankful. Right? I mean, we’re we’re talking and he could have died and he’s well. And he kneels down beside his bed and he thanks the Lord. They go to bed and he prays before he sleeps. And he has a dream and in the dream, he hears a voice. And the voice says, my servant David defends the integrity of my word, and no one defends him. I’m gonna cry when I tell you this, when he defends the integrity of my word. You defend him. And he did for three years, all through that theological education. Thirty years later, thirty years after that event, he we changed I changed the nominations. He’s still in the scene over, but he contacted me.
I lost touch with him. And he said thirty years ago, he prayed for Jesus to heal my arre. Thank you that you did. I’m well. Three kids. Happily married. Finish she enters now retirement. He finishes ministry. Anyway, I I just asked you. Healing prayer was not my idea. It was a kiss so the reason the book is called God’s idea because it wasn’t my idea. It wasn’t this is not something that I decided that I wanted to learn how to do. It was something that I tripped into together with every other major thing that I’ve ever done in life. And actually learning how to breathe for the die. Wasn’t my idea? That the four funerals were of the late first one with the lady who was supposed to organize this, you know. So mean, it’s hilarious when you stop and think about it, but it’s it’s to deal with what you call pathos, this kind of strange emotion where you know you’re in the middle of something bigger than you. Much bigger than you. So, yeah, that’s and so the design appointment a day is an extension of that same principle. I want to be in something that I have not ordained, not established, not built toward. I mean, I want to do that too. I want to have a successful trajectory in what doing, etcetera, terror. That’s just ordinary life. But I want to know God’s involved in something. And so I ask him for those divine appointments each day. And he sends them. So I do believe in the power of faith to heal the breathing heart. I do. And the way that I describe the way God speaks is that he speaks nonverbally by presence. And that heals the broken heart. Let me tell you what I mean by that. There’s a text in the book of Romans. That’s, by the way, that’s the famous book from the from the apostle Paul, everybody who’s any kind of Christian reads Romans. It’s the if they call it the capital, that’s what because it’s the one that everybody refers to for all kinds of teaching. That is standard procedure in every branch of the Lord’s Church, whether you’re protestant or orthodox or evangelical or charismatic. They all say the capital of Pittsburgh’s Romans fourteen says this. Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking. Because they were arguing about eating and drinking. The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy. In the holy spirit. And so the experience of knowing the lord through an encounter with the spirit produces three identity murders. Righteousness is a sweet walk with God, and peace is internal serenity despite external circumstance. And joy is internal celebration even when the world is flying apart. And when those three things wax large, and you find yourself in something you have not expected. That’s God talking. When you are praying find yourself in when those three things wacklired, and suddenly a stream of consciousness comes into your brain. To go and see so and so down the street. And you go when you discover there in a crisis moment. That’s God talking. When those three things diminish, that’s the hand of warning. Pay attention. And when they’re jarred, get out of the room. You’re about them correct. You’re about to walk into a disastrous business meeting. Get out of the room. This is God talking saying, this is big trouble right here. And I teach people how to pay attention to those three markers. And actually, to do more than just say, isn’t that a nice little coincidence? But to attribute that to God’s direct involvement in her lives. Because healing prayer is God’s idea. It’s not ours. Buraculous intervention is God’s idea, not ours. And it’s this is how scripture works. So, I mean, Can you imagine what it was like for Peter James and John and Xevity when they got called? I mean, they’re working in the boat. Jesus of Nazareth shows up there’s a miraculous catch of fish. You know, and let us I just wanna put I wanna illustrate that right in the sketch for you. They have found boats from that era owned by fishermen. That on average, they’re twenty seven feet long, they’re eight feet across and they’re four feet high. And two of those boats were sinking with the fish because they were filled to the brim. And so imagine you’re out there. You’ve worked hard all night. You’ve got nothing. You know you gotta pay your bills. You haven’t got enough money to pay the bills. And you’re washing your nets, repairing them because, you know, you gotta pay the bills. This is just not helpful. I know. So anyway, This guy shows up and says, throw your nets over there. Right? So they do and that they didn’t want to do that, but they did. And there were so many wrinkling tilapia in those two boats, then it touched their toes, it touched their ankles, it touched their knees, it touched it went up to four feet. I mean, I’m here. That much, and the boat is right at water level, and the other boat over there is doing the same thing. And then Jesus says, I want you to follow me. I mean, That was the Simon Peter’s idea. It actually says he throws himself down, but actually this is a tale of people who don’t know this. He has to throw himself down in the fish not on the shore because the boat had not yet come to shore. He throws himself down into a massive wriggling tilapia and he says to Jesus of Nazareth. I am not worthy of this. You are God, and I am not. And Jesus said to him, don’t be afraid you’re not gonna catch fish. You’re gonna haul in humans. That’s what you’re gonna do. Wasn’t his idea. Thank you very much. So that’s how that’s how I understand. Ministry. That’s how I understand care for people in grief.
Victoria Volk: I had a moment quite a few years ago there was a gentleman that died in my community. Okay. I think he was, I don’t know, late eighties, maybe even early nineties. A plumber by trade, new everybody, right, in the community.
David Chotka: Yep.
Victoria Volk: And I remember sometime before I passed away, we were sitting outside the bar.
David Chotka: I was
Victoria Volk: just sitting outside. It was a nice summer night evening or whatever, and I never really had a conversation with the guy before that.
David Chotka: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And he told me, I’m not even sure why, but he told me that the best thing he ever did was choosing to adopt his wife’s children as his
David Chotka: own. Okay.
Victoria Volk: Fast forward, I’m not sure how long after that, he passed away. Mhmm. But when he passed away, they had a celebration of life in the bar just, you know, everybody got together and things like that. And I just had this poll to go to the bar. I didn’t know who his kids were, didn’t know what they look like, to tell them what he said.
David Chotka: It changed their life. Right?
Victoria Volk: I don’t know. In the moment, I you know, I I did go and I did share what he shared with me.
David Chotka: Yeah. I
Victoria Volk: don’t know if they reflected on it after the fact or whatnot, but, you know, it was one of those things, like, it wouldn’t leave me alone. You know, like, I came home and
David Chotka: That’s him. That’s good. Yeah. Yeah. The fact that he should tell you in a happenstance, and that you that you should pass away shortly thereafter Mhmm.
And that you get commanded to go to that place, to say this, to a bunch of people you do not know.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
David Chotka: That’s him. Yeah. That’s hearing the voice. So you have heard the voice of Jesus. You’ve heard it.
Victoria Volk: I have several there I’ve had a lot of moments in my life. Even my marriage with my husband, like, we were friends for seven years. I was heartbroken and And I I’ve asked him, like, what made you, like, decide to pursue me? He really can’t answer that. Kind of funny because we hadn’t looked at each other, like, that way, you know, in a, like, in a the romantic way.
You know, we were friends for seven years.
David Chotka: Yep.
Victoria Volk: And and then all of a sudden, he was like this relentless consumer night and shining armor, you know. And I’d I’d I’d said one prayer. I just bring someone into my life who is good for me.
David Chotka: And the Lord heard you prayer.
Victoria Volk: And he heard my prayer. Yeah. Twenty plus years later, here we are. Three kids.
David Chotka: Well, so listen, though, the whole point of this podcast is to bring comfort to people who are distressed or in trouble. That’s the whole point of your podcast. I will say that the most important thing you can do is to straight up, some people have stroke trouble with faith, some people may break
Victoria Volk: down church. I did myself.
David Chotka: Yeah. Some people who had a bad experience in that catheter, some priest abused them or or maybe they’ve heard about that priest abusing their best friend and or they they were turned off by some bitter bibles number, you know, showing up pro bar in somebody. So nothing worse than that. Oh my heavens. Anyway, That the the point is it doesn’t matter where you are. The point is that don’t let a bad experience of some idiot. Get in the way of your accessing what is freely available to anyone who asks for it. One of my favorite scriptures is is found in the psalms. It says this God is near to the broken heart. So if you’re broken hearted, pray this very simple prayer. Okay? Your word says, so please send it. Please please come here. I’m Broken Heart. And the way that he shows up by presence is to manifest himself within, with this velvety smooth assurance of war, and behind your physical estate.
And I’ve I’ve tried to put words around this. And if you can say this better than can’t I will lift your quote. I’ll give you credit, but I’ll tell I’ll use it. This is so the way that I feel to mind presence, there’s this cognitive thing where you choose it and you say, oh, yes. Is fine and you make the decision that isn’t that nice, but that’s not that doesn’t cover the ground. There comes this moment inside where the believer knows inside their door. That’s the only way to describe this. Mhmm. There’s this awareness and it is other than you And it is something that is separate and distinct from you, but intrinsic to who you are because you said yes to him. And you sense this rising sense of fiery gentle presence and it’s a velvety smooth It’s assurance, it’s grace, it’s love, it’s yearning for more of him, and it’s settled contentness in who he is. Even if your circumstances are terrible. With the peace of God, which passes understanding, keep guard over your hearts and minds, In the knowledge and love of Christ, Jesus, so says the apostle Paul in the book of Philippians when he was in jail of all things. He was in jail when he wrote that he had a Roman guard chained to his wrist while he’s writing this stuff. I wonder what that Roman guard thought about the fact that the Apostle was writing this of just this. And he didn’t know he’s an apartment. He thought he was some guy who was upfront charges, you know, that kind of thing. And he writes about this experience of the internal presence with peace Staying like like a guard keeping watch over your door of faith. It’s like a soldier, a century standing at your door, walking back and forth. Making sure that the prisoner inside that space is content. That’s what I would ask people to consider doing to. Open their hearts up to that. Now, if there’s an atheist out there, my dad was an atheist. He became an agnostic, and then he became a Christian believer. He became a Christian believer because Jesus of Nazareth appeared to him. It was the most amazing kind of thing. And he’d suffered much. He had he’d lost a lot of his eyesight because of the childhood thing. He had scoped cold bottles in glasses. He then was treated by friends and family. And he didn’t believe that it was possible that people out there were actually kind of a gentleman’s suite. And then I became a believer. I was the first one in my family. Again, that wasn’t my idea. That wasn’t my dad’s idea either. Right? It was my mom’s idea. And when it was all set and done, my face impacted his existence course because that’s your kid. You got what he can do with this. You know, what school of the ministry is. What’s this crazy kind of thing? Be a dentist, be a doctor mix a month, you know? Be a lawyer. That’s that’s the immigrant story. So what there’s a Jewish joke or what’s the difference between a tailor and psychiatrist? One generation.
Anyway, getting back to this. He he couldn’t believe. And I remember praying for him three years. And then there was one critical moment where suddenly this whole thing changed. And he banging his head on a on a on a beam in one of our storerooms area and east war to jeez, his name to date. And the Lord behind him said, yes. And he turned around and he was eyes to eyes with the risen Lord. In the doorway of that storeroom, And my dad had agreed three education. And since because his eyes were bad when he was a little kid, but as they locked his eyes together, I he’s telling me the story is towards what is she and hardly speak and said, dad, What was that like? He said it was like I was looking into wells of love. He never talked that way. Grade three education, you don’t read Edison for fun. You’re not a Shakespeare fixinato. You’re not reading, you know, lawn failure. You’re not reading the wallwood or anything.
You’re you’re not you’re
Victoria Volk: I mean, he was an atheist.
David Chotka: Yes. Well, at that point, probably an agnostic. At that point, he kinda thought because of growing things regardless. Didn’t believe in that. And So apparently, he was looking at the Lord and I I’m he’s telling me the story about a week after it happened, trying to give words to this. Physically shaking. And then he I said, dad, what did you say? So if I told Jesus that I loved my son and he met me because I was the pastor, you know. And then Jesus said, I know this. And then he said to the Lord, I’m a sinner. And Jesus said, I forgive you. And he vanished. That’s how my dad came to faith. Wasn’t his idea. He banged his head on a beam. Took the Lord’s name in vain and the Lord appeared to him. I haven’t had a crazy kind of thing. So I’m a supernatural I believe from the power of the Lord to intervene in the flow of history, but I’m also a horse stance guy. I don’t believe that everybody you pray for sealed. I do believe that people die young. I do believe that sometimes people make bad bad bad mistakes and do terrible things they shouldn’t do. I do believe that crazy people kill others and so on and so forth. And there’s this thing where I do believe in the scientific enterprise and I do believe in the power of God in your v. And they flow in different channels. And some some faith traditions say you can never put these two channels together, and I completely disagree with that. Science works inside the framework of a world that is created, and God established those rules of creation. And so we, scientific enterprise, is only uncovering what lies fallow under the surface of the soil, and they endeavor to discover a trajectory of a particular sickness or affliction they find a cure or they find an adaptive therapy, you should take the gift. And every now and then there’s a miraculous intervention. And sometimes the two of them overlap like this beautifully. And sometimes they separate out and run-in different pathways, but regardless of this.
What I teach in the book and the reason I wrote the book, it’s a co write by the way. Co writer is a million selling author by the name of Dr. Maxi Dunnham. Have I got his yeah. Here’s his book. This book is the one that trained me in Huddl. Ford quicker living prayer. Maxi wrote this. It’s a million seller. And it gives it the the structure of this book is inspired. It’s the structure is the thing that that was amazing. He would give a little bit of teaching, a little bit of scripture, a little bit of reflecting, recording, a little bit of a challenge. You do that for seven days in the week. He learned how to pray. It’s just this and you do it by praying, not just by reading about prayer. Well, I met him and he and I wrote wrote together this book called healing prayer, and then I’ve that I’m on your podcast to talk about. And, of course, it includes stories of people dying before their time and grieving. It includes stories of people who who who prayed one way and who ended up getting something else. And it includes miraculous accounts of divine intervention. So there’s five pathways made in this book. The first one is the instant heal, and I’ve told you a couple of those stories now, and rackets integrations. The second is a pathway to a remedy. Somebody does research, well, and you wind up meeting the person who’s got an adaptive therapy for what you’re discovering you need. Well, take it. They spent thirty years because their kids’ sister died in leukemia and they’ve studied cancer. Well, why would you resist taking the fruit of someone’s labor when their intention was to make this this cure possible. Take it. That’s from God too. Third is an ordinary healing. Now, I will tell you something about this. My wife was miraculously cured of muscular dystrophy. That stories in this in this book about halfway through. It was incredible to watch. Before she was cured. If she damaged a muscle, the muscle was damaged forever. After she was cured, if she damaged a muscle, the muscle healed. So natural healing is also part of the equation. Then there is suffering that we don’t understand. And for some reason, it’s there. We wait through it. We don’t understand it. Sometimes somebody dies young. And last is the miraculous crossing in the end of your life. All of us have a purpose and all of us completed. And all of us have to face our maker. All five of those are legitimate means by which God leads us in this journey called healing prayer. That’s God’s idea.
Victoria Volk: So what about that with your wife and your daughter? The polarity of
David Chotka: Yeah. I live between the two. Like, I I do. I live between the two. Now, before I go any further, I I do have a two o’clock coming up.
And it’s it’s one fifty one.
Victoria Volk: Well, would you briefly share that how because your daughter has
David Chotka: Yes. So the way I say it is this. My daughter has my tonic dystrophy. My wife was cured of curing FSH. She’s adopted.
My wife was was hesitant in her family life. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And
David Chotka: we’ve when we adopted the girl, we didn’t know. And so part of the miracle of providence. Is that she was adopted into a family that could accommodate her and muscular dystrophy, and we knew it. Now I hope that in my mind, that’s not enough. I want the rest. Thank you very much. And so for about twenty years, we would pray for her to be well. And now we pray for her to be a peace. That’s how we pray because the the answer hasn’t come. So the way I describe it in the book is God initiates and we respond. Not we initiate and God responds. It doesn’t work that way. Thank you very much. So I teach people how to pay attention to the mind leading in that. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: What I kind of want to touch on now then is what you kinda said was how people can feel like their prayers are not being heard. Like, prayers are not being answered and
David Chotka: Yes.
Victoria Volk: And I have this thought or belief within myself that yes, pray, but you also have to move your feet.
David Chotka: Actually, the bet I heard heard of this bet this way. If you pray for potatoes, put your hands in plow. Yeah. I’m listening to this little kid. Right?
And it’s actually really that’s an important principle. And when it’s all said and done, The the principle behind that is not what it called passively. You don’t sit in your button with for God to take care of everything. You are born to work. And the reason why Adam was given the assignment of the garden was because he wasn’t just supposed to sit there and watch the animals. He was supposed to tend soil. You are created in the image of God in order to be creative and to do enter into the acts that God would have you do. Now, what do you do with unanswered prayer? There is this I have a chapter in the book where I talk about medicine, miracle, and mystery. And how all three of them intertwine. And the thrust of the book is to say, we are not god. We are those who are in submission to the movement of God’s spirit. And we cannot manipulate the Lord to accomplish all that we want because we we only have a little three pound brain. And the best that you and I can do is to use the three pounds and train it. But you can’t tell it’s around the corner. In fact, this lady that I was just gonna see just canceled and I wasn’t expecting that. Alright? So I didn’t know that. I had organized my time since I’d be done according to your timetable and then pick up my coal. So I I can’t tell that, but now we have more time to be able to to navigate this because we’re in the middle of an important cover that isn’t completed. You can break this up into two episodes if you want to do that, which is what you might do. But regardless of that, God initiates and he leads us in paths that we do not understand or know. And when it is all said and done, we’re always left with holding history. There are seasons where we see miraculous breakthrough, and there are seasons where we see partial breakthrough. And there are scenes where we see no breakthrough at all. This one came to a head when I had a buddy who was in his fifties. And I was pastor in church forty five minutes from here. I was serving in Chad and Ontario, now serving in Windsor. But it’s but that church was a really solid place. My very first ever visit was to this guy. So I arrive in my office, and the secretary walks in and says to me, you gotta go on see Bob. He wants the new passenger to come and see him. So we’re talking The books are not out of the boxes yet. I mean, I put the books in the office. The bookshelves are being constructed. And I said, well, I guess I can go down the road and see this guy, so I get in the car and I do my first ever pass through a call in that church. I walk into this house. He’s on an oxygen oxygen mask. And he’s carrying this tube with him and he’s full of cancer. And his godly wife is caring for him and they’re sweet people, but I know his skin is the wrong color.
His eyes are the wrong color. And I have been around the block enough to know when somebody’s tied days your number. So I pray a prayer of comfort with him. That’s the way I prayed. And I get back in my car and I drive home, but it was the end of the day.
I said to my wife, look, I think I got a funeral coming up. It’s a guy named Bob. Apparently, he’s a godly fellow. I just met him. I was in his home. And I think I’m gonna do here. What I didn’t know was that the elders of the church had already booked in to see him that night and he didn’t tell me that. And the elders went to pray for him, obeying James chapter five where it says that the elders of the church and like the with the royal prayer phase, etcetera. And he went into a miraculous recovery. And three days later, he’s down in South Carolina at Myrtle Beach. Gulfy. Exactly. He’s had this astonishing recovery in the board chair, Hal Norton, and him, Bob Roberts, they’re out there down there. Galtham, because he had this amazing recovery, happened instantly in front of those elders. And so I had witnessed amazing. This is incredible. In the in the course of time, Bob became a friend. Bob and Marlene and and was one of a a group of four couples and we all got together and we should reason laugh. He was one of the fun he was a delightful guy and there was a guy named Bill and Bill and Bob would do these back and forth kind of hilarious things. And if you were in the middle of that that rep r t, you’d laugh until you were done. It was just this marvelous fun and whenever I wanted to blow off steam always with Bob. He became one of my elders, and I remembered having significant prayer times with him. There was one that happened just before he became my friend. He said, I wanna go to a a church in Toronto that has a reputation of of being one of these healing places. I said, that’s a three and a half hour drive, Bob.
You wanna go? He said, yeah. I wanna go. I booked my associate in preaching because that was my sermon prep day. And he and I together with our two wives drove down the highway and it took us four hours because the highway was busy. We pull up at this place, and we show up at this place, and nobody prays for him, nobody prays for me. It doesn’t happen. You know? And we’re at the door of the place. And I said, this is crazy, Bob. We’ve gone four hours. One way, we gotta go four hours back. You wanna pray now, but he said, well, we better. So I put my hand on him. His wife and my wife put their hand on hand. We started to pray. Bob started to laugh. Heart filled joyful laughter. It just bubbling from inside of him. It was it was honest joyful laughter. Hilarious. And so he didn’t stop laughing. What what we got in the car to drive back home. And for the four hour drive from Toronto to Chatham, he kept laughing. And I had you know, then he gets in his car and his wife, Marlene, had the drive home because he was still laughing. And from that point forward, the man that I knew was full of laugh the laughter subsided when he finally went to sleep. But he started to have a crazy hilarious sense of humor, and it became part of this for some couple of things where we’d always have fun. And he became an elder in my church and we did all kinds of amazing things together and he was what I called bible from where Bob. He was the guy who called the elders to account when they were being a pack of idiots. When they were when they weren’t gonna do something that was the right thing to do because it caused too much.
He pulled the bible out, and he’d tell us off. You know, and then he make a joke and everybody in the room would crack up laughing. And then we’d we’d adopt the expensive decision and do the right thing and the money would come. And he was that kind of a guy. And then the cancer returned. And four years later, I was in the hospital room when he died. His daughter was with him. I was in the room. It was two o’clock in the morning. I got called up because it was pretty, you know, severe, and I was holding his hand. And his daughter was holding his other hand. And he breathed his last. I did the funeral. And when I was doing this funeral, I did my very best to put best foot forward, but this was not just a parishioner. This was a very good friend and this was someone who had seen healing and it ended and he died. And I remember so I did this service. I don’t know. I did my best to present a positive take on this. I watched his body descend to the ground. I went back to the office. I closed the door. I put a cover over the window. I sat in the corner and I cried like a baby, because that was my friend. Three weeks later, I was with the other three couples plus the widow. And they were thanking me for doing a beautiful service. And I said, okay, thank you. I appreciate that. And they said, yeah, it was so amazing to see Bob healed. I said, healed. I just buried and he was fifty five. He died. What are you talking about? And they looked at me and they said, you didn’t know him before. Did you? I said, no. I moved here. My first visit was him. He was on an oxygen tank, and there was this amazing recovery, and and they said, well, He was clinically depressed for a dozen years. He hadn’t laughed in a dozen years. And you drove him to that church in Toronto and nobody prayed for him. And then you and Elizabeth and Marlene prayed for him and he started to laugh. And the clinical depression vanished. And they were given three and a half years of blissful married life. Before he died of the cancer in the last six months. Jesus healed them of clinical depression. Even though he died at fifty five young. So what I say in the book is there’s this thing called already, not yet. We’re already participants in the powers of the next age. We are not yet as we should be. And those two realities overlap just like that in every life, in every family. And so I saw my wife healed. I’ve actually been physically healed. I had a paralyzed face. I was told I’d never speak again when I was fifty three. And the Lord healed me, and that’s a long story as well. I don’t want to tell a long story. It was so remarkable. It got recorded by the Christian Broadcast Network and there’s been a hundred and twenty thousand views of that story. I had a face that the doctor told me would never heal, and I was completely healed in a process that was just absolutely filled and wonder. And my daughter’s not. So I’ve been healed. My wife’s been healed. My daughter’s not. And I live between two ages that overlap, the age of life and the age of death. And the victory is partial until Jesus returns at the end of time.
Than what God would have us do. It’s live between the times and celebrate his presence in this fallen and broken world. Do we people who extend love and grace to those who have none? And to walk with them through all their struggles and all their difficulties, trusting that God will intervene in their lives.
Victoria Volk: Amen. That is a beautiful place to end this podcast, actually.
David Chotka: Well, thank you. That’s it. Yeah. There’s a scripture that has both of those in it. I’ll I’ll just say it to you. I think that’s a good way for me to close the sentences. The loved now We are children of God. It does not yet appear we should be. But when he appears, we shall be like him. For we shall see him as he is. Now, not yet. First John chapter three verse two. That’s where the believer lives.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much. For all of your stories, for making what you shared relatable to people who may be struggling with their faith. I know I did personally for many years
David Chotka: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And, you know, you you some people go many years blaming God for their circumstances and I think he lies in wait. Just waiting for us to awaken to his love for us, I suppose.
David Chotka: Yeah. Now the love’s unmerited. We don’t deserve it. Absolutely don’t deserve it. It comes because it comes. And it isn’t our idea. It isn’t our idea. It’s it’s God’s idea to love us. We just got the your guy. He woke up and he pursued you.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. Wasn’t your idea? Wasn’t it? Yeah. Look, that’s why. Why did she do that? Oh, because I love you. I just he just did that. And you So it’s the same with with the love of God toward us. We don’t deserve it. They even know why he wants to bother, but he does. So if you can awaken to that, it becomes something beautiful. And that’s where we live.
Victoria Volk: I love that. Where can people find you?
David Chotka: I have a website that’s the easiest way spirit equip dot com. And I think you’ll I think I sent the links to you, if I’m not mistaken, I believe. Yeah. Anyway, it’s the the word spirit is the same as holy spirit, s p I r I t, and a word equip is the same as the beginning of equipment, EQU IP. Put the two things together, spiritequip.com.
That’s my website. And it has links to all my social media, so my Instagram thing is there, my YouTube channels there, my blogs are there, my Facebook page is there, and so on and so forth.
Victoria Volk: And my In your books?
David Chotka: My books are there too. And, yes, all the things that the the ability to book me, I do three day events in churches. And if people want me to come to their church, I’m more than able to do that. You just have to give me some lead time. Pay my hair fair and take up offerings. That’s what we do. It’s it’s not expensive to do. Find me a place to stay as long as it’s not some scsi dive. You know, find me a private room with Matthew. And then I’m more than happy to come into churches. I teach principles. I’ll tell you why I the the organization is called Spirit Equipment. Because nobody equipped me in the spiritual disciplines. I had to learn the hard way. And my goal is to make spiritual disciplines one small step at a time, simple for people so that they know what steps they can take, so that they can learn to enter into the things that God would have us learn. And so I have five books out. All of them are books that teach spiritual disciplines one small step at a time. And so spirit clip dot com is named after the activity that’s involved in my ministry. And and I do it all cross denominational line. I’m gonna be speaking to a bunch of methodists in a few months. I’m gonna speak to a pentecostal group after that. I’m I’m working with the Christian missionary alliance. I have preached him back to churches and men and night churches. I have spoken trans denominationally to Catholics and Africans and Baptist and Presbyterian and many Knights. You name it, they’re all there. Either my own denomination, sometimes they’ll let me speak in my own too. Anyway, I am an orthodox believer. I believe in, you know, the classic statements, the creed of the church, and so on. And I’m looking for really three things when I’m going into a church. I know that I can work with you. And number one, you have a high view of the bible as final. That you believe that Jesus is in fact God the sun and that you believe that that the new birth is essential. If those three things are there, I don’t care which background is I can work with you. And that those are the groups that I go to.
Victoria Volk: And so I will put your website in the show notes, and anything else you would like to pass along with me to add?
David Chotka: You know, right now, I’m trying to figure out some way to get the first chapter of the book and audiobook. Available. So I’m talking to my publisher. So God willing, I think it’s really important that you actually it’s it’s in my voice and in the voice of the other co writer. And so both of our voices are in the first chapter. And we both tell a story or two. And it’ll be I’m trying to get that done. So If I don’t get it done from my publisher, I’m gonna rerecord it myself and send it to you. I’d like to make that available to anybody who’d like to receive that.
Victoria Volk: Sounds good. And anything else you’d like to share that you don’t feel and you got to?
David Chotka: Oh, listen. We covered the ground here. We went long. We waxed long so that we could cover all the ground. So I think we did. There’s lots I could teach and talk about. I’ve written five books. I have a book on hearing the voice of Jesus. I have a book on dealing with the key phrases and words of the Lord’s prayer. I have this one on healing prayer. I’m writing I’m rewriting the Lord’s prayer book, and I have a book where I am where I’m teaching on the Holy Spirit, how Holy Spirit works. I’m a I’m a sessional lecturer in the Pathways School for Ministry on the Holy Spirit’s baptismal, what it looks like, how it works. So these are the areas of my expertise. And I’m more than happy to to talk. In this case, I believe with your podcast, your audience, the Healing Cray book was the best book to to put forward. It was the one that speaks to the constituency that you’re in.
Victoria Volk: I would agree. Yeah. And thank you so much for everything that you shared today and to my listeners and I enjoyed our conversation.
David Chotka: And likewise, it was been it’s been easy to have the conversation with you. Thank you, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grief, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Pespective, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR).
Today on Grieving Voices, I had the honor of speaking with Sabrina Fletcher, a compassionate pregnancy loss doula who brings solace to parents facing the heart-wrenching decision of terminating a wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. Sabrina bravely shared her personal journey and how she’s turned her pain into purpose by supporting others through similar grief.
Key Points Discussed:
- The surprising prevalence of TFMR compared to stillbirths and the taboo surrounding it.
- The emotional turmoil and quick decisions forced upon parents facing unfavorable prenatal diagnoses.
- The grief journey taken by both Sabrina and her family following their loss, including how they each processed their emotions differently.
- Challenges within the healthcare system that fail to provide adequate support for those undergoing TFMR.
- Suggestions on improving medical care experiences during such sensitive times, including specialized bereavement care similar to practices in England.
TFMR is often shrouded in silence and taboo, but it’s more common than many realize. Sabrina advocates for open conversation and emotional support that upholds the dignity of those making these tough choices out of deep love for their children.
Our discussion also highlighted how even young children experience loss deeply and need acknowledgment in their grieving process—a powerful reminder not to underestimate our little ones’ emotional worlds.
Sabrina emphasizes breaking generational patterns by openly discussing grief rather than suppressing feelings – an approach shaped in contrast to what she experienced growing up, where losses were dealt with privately behind closed doors.
Remember: Transforming your grief doesn’t require grand gestures; small steps are just as significant.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Silent Sorrow: Understanding and Supporting Termination for Medical Reasons (TFMR)
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR). Today, we delve into this sensitive topic with insights from Sabrina Fletcher, a pregnancy loss doula who has turned her personal pain into a beacon of support for others facing similar heartbreak.
The Unspoken Grief of TFMR
While stillbirth is recognized as an agonizing experience warranting sympathy and support, TFMR is three times more common yet seldom discussed. Parents making the excruciating decision to end a wanted pregnancy due to severe health risks face not only profound sorrow but also societal stigmatization. This lack of understanding can leave bereaved parents feeling isolated in their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher knows this all too well. Her journey through TFMR led her to become an advocate and guide for those walking this lonely path. Through peer support, one-on-one sessions, workshops—and now our conversation on Grieving Voices—Sabrina offers solace by helping parents honor their love for the child they lost while finding light amidst darkness.
From Personal Loss to Providing Support
The taboo surrounding TFMR means many do not receive the compassionate care they desperately need—a reality Sabrina experienced firsthand when she had to make that impossible choice between her own health and her pregnancy. However, instead of succumbing to despair, she channeled her anguish into action.
Recognizing the void in supportive services during such losses inspired Sabrina’s mission: creating spaces free from judgment where individuals could share their unique stories of grief whether it be from pregnancy loss or other life-altering experiences like suicide or long-term caregiving.
Adapting Grief Support in Times of Crisis
When COVID-19 struck, it compelled many services—including grief support—to transition online. Although initially unplanned, virtual platforms have proven invaluable by fostering international communities united by shared experiences without geographical boundaries.
On these platforms like Instagram and Facebook groups created by Sabrina herself; people found comfort knowing they were not alone regardless if they were seeking help after losing someone close or grappling with anticipatory grief—the emotional suffering felt before an impending loss occurs.
A Framework For Healing
During our discussion on Grieving Voices podcast episode featuring Victoria V. Sabrina shared a practical approach she uses with clients navigating their mourning process:
1. **Acknowledge:** First comes recognizing physical manifestations associated with bereavement without rushing to interpret them.
2. **Assign:** Once ready emotionally; pinpointing specific feelings linked with these bodily sensations allows individuals clarity regarding their internal state.
3. **Align:** Finally taking steps towards healing whether through acts self-care or external efforts such as advocacy based upon acknowledged emotions provides direction amidst confusion brought about by sorrowful events.
This framework isn’t just theory—it’s been lived out through actions like therapy sessions community engagement daily check-ins friends going through similar situations—all contributing toward managing complex emotions following another pregnancy post-loss period fraught fear joy alike intertwining unpredictably within expectant parents’ hearts minds alike.
Transformative Power Compassion Action
Perhaps most importantly what resonates throughout conversations resources provided via platforms like [thetfmrddoula. com](http://thetfmrddoula.com) is notion transformative power compassion action hold when dealing kinds tragedies. No gesture is too small nor any step insignificant When comes to transforming raw painful emotions something meaningful tangible both individual collective level. Every story every voice adds richness tapestry human resilience empathy growth In closing let us remember words echoed Victoria herself “Treat me gently you would any grieving parent” encapsulating core message extending kindness understanding everyone traversing difficult terrain loss Remember open your heart truly transform your life. Much love
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:32
Thank you for tuning to grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria V. And today my guest is Sabrina Fletcher. She guides bereaved parents through the heartbreak of losing a wanted pregnancy to a termination for medical reasons or also known as TFMR with groups 1 on 1 and workshops. As a pregnancy loss doula who’s been there herself, She companions people as they find the light in their stories and self-expression and the deep love they carry for their babies.
Victoria Volk
00:00:32 – 00:01:25
Thank you so much for being open enough to share about this on my podcast today. I was excited to hear about this because I, you know, you even said that it’s, 3 times more common than stillbirth,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:00:40 – 00:00:40
uh-hummm..
Victoria Volk
00:00:40 – 00:01:18
which was a surprising statistic to me because, I mean, I’d heard that yes, people can, you know, terminate a pregnancy because of medical reasons, but I didn’t realize there was like, an acronym for it
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:18 – 00:01:19
You’re right.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:21
there was an underbelly or undercurrent of, like, taboo or, you know
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:21 – 00:01:21
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:01:21 – 00:01:23
about it and this yeah. That so I’m I think it’s a loss that is not talked about, like you said, very much.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:23 – 00:01:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:23 – 00:01:25
I haven’t heard it on I don’t listen to a ton of other grief podcasts just because I kinda wanna stay in my own lane. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:25 – 00:01:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:25 – 00:01:42
I’m excited to share this with my listeners broaden our perspective of grief and, talk about it. So thank you so much for being open to sharing your journey, which brings us to 2018. And do you mind starting there?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:43 – 00:02:05
Sure. Thank you so much, Victoria. And thank you for having me on to talk about this piece of pregnancy loss that is silenced and shamed. And in some spaces, it’s becoming a little bit more openly spoken about, and I think that as more people speak about it, more people understand. Oh, okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:05 – 00:02:16
Yes. This is another type of pregnancy loss. That is what if they went through it themselves. That is what I really experienced. And like you said, I went through it myself in 2018.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:16 – 00:02:53
It was early 2018 and we had a bad ultrasound result where we could see and the doctor was showing us the different abnormalities and what was wrong with our baby. And one of the conditions there were various things that were showing up. One of the conditions was swelling in the head and the chest and the back of the neck. And since it was pretty much all over the body and the torso, he was calling it hydrops. So that’s just the name for fetal swelling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:55 – 00:03:32
And that along with other things, you know, we went home and I was researching, and I also found out and he told me at that ultrasound. He said you know, if you decide to continue the pregnancy, this is now a high-risk pregnancy, but I didn’t really know the extent of that. I found out that high drops can cause similar swelling in the pregnant person and they call it mirror syndrome. So it could have caused harm to my organs as well. It’s just very devastating because this was a wanted baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:32 – 00:03:49
I took this whole fertility course. I was tracking my cycles. I knew my ovulation date. We wanted her in our family, but then when we found out she was sick and also the condition that she was carrying could have harmed my health. We did decide to terminate the pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:03:51 – 00:03:56
And you had another child. You have already had one child. Correct? Or did I read that?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:56 – 00:04:02
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. So my oldest daughter was 4 years old at the time.
Victoria Volk
00:04:03 – 00:04:14
And so just a matter of, I mean, trying to put this in perspective for people listening, you still have to function on the day-to-day and care for a 4-year-old.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:15 – 00:04:15
Yeah. Function.
Victoria Volk
00:04:16 – 00:04:18
Right? After receiving this news.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:18 – 00:04:18
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:04:18 – 00:04:28
And how did you like? How do you what did those early days and weeks looked like? And then how long did it take you to come? Like, how long did you give yourself to
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:29 – 00:04:30
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:30 – 00:04:35
come to that decision? And was your husband also on board right off the right out of the gate too?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:35 – 00:04:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:36 – 00:04:40
Because you were maybe sometimes that could be a conflict for some relationships.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:41 – 00:05:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t an easy decision. I mean, it ended up being clear after we did enough research and talked to the doctors and I was looking at different medical journals and all the research that I could get my hands on that wasn’t behind a paywall, you know, because I’m not a medical researcher myself. I don’t I don’t have all of those subscriptions. So what what I could find and what I could see, and also finding other people’s stories online, it led me to see that this is also a compassionate choice to decide to induce early really, and help her pass peacefully instead of coming to term, going to term, or possibly not even making it that far and would she die in utero, or would we have to have some crazy it’s not even a c section.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:05:35 – 00:06:09
It’s called a exit strategy where they, like, take everything out all at once. And, you know, it’s very hard on both the baby and the and the pregnant person and and she was already sick. So, you know, could she get through that kind of medical trauma to even then be, you know, with all the tubes and all the life support and everything, and then how long or you know, or would I hold her in my arms as she died? You know, there there’s really no right way to go about it because there are people in my community. I went on to become a pregnancy loss doula.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:10 – 00:06:39
I’ve always wanted to be a doula. But then when this happened to me, I realized, oh, this is the place in birth that I really want to focus on. I really want to support people who are going through this. And some of those families in one pregnancy, like, maybe they carried some sort of genetic something, disposition or disorder, whatever you would like to call it. And maybe some of their children do carry it or maybe they do bring some pregnancies to term and, you know, their babies die in their arms.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:39 – 00:07:06
And then in another pregnancy, they decide to terminate. There’s really there’s no there’s no right there’s no right way. It’s just whatever feels best for you and your family in that moment. And that’s how we made our decision. We just felt like that was the best for this baby, for my body, and the fact that we already had a living daughter that we were also taking care of.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:06 – 00:07:17
And there’s also another grief story in our family. My husband lost his mom when he was about 6 years old. And so he was like, woah. No. No.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:17 – 00:07:32
We cannot lose you. You have to be here for our older daughter. So that really became a big part of the decision as well. It wasn’t overnight. You know, it took us a few days, but we were also up against a crunch.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:32 – 00:08:00
So, with the restrictive laws to have an abortion, no questions asked, we had a week. So we didn’t really have that much time to decide. So we had to make this decision very quickly. I do feel like there are pieces of my decision that were taken from me. I wasn’t really given all of there wasn’t enough time to get all the information that I would have liked to get.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:01 – 00:08:19
You know, I would have liked to have an amniocentesis, but we were only 13 weeks along at that point. And you have to wait till 16, 18 weeks. And, I did ask the doctor, you know, when he was telling us all the bad news about an amniocentesis. It could have came back clear too. So that’s the thing.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:19 – 00:08:35
Like, we were already seeing how sick she was. But you know, it is good to know all of the medical information before making, you know, a drastic medical decision like this. So it’s really very very awful.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:08:40
I’m just thinking about like someone who’s having to go through this and make this decision or decides to make this decision. And yet, you know when you often think about when we hear the word abortion, right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:40 – 00:08:40
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:08:41 – 00:09:10
we hear the child does not they don’t want the child. Right? It’s for whatever reason, whatever the circumstances, like they choose that they’re, they’re not, it’s not a good time for them for whatever reason. We don’t think that someone who’s sitting in the waiting room is there because they really want the baby
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:10 – 00:09:10
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:10 – 00:09:12
and there’s a medical reason why they’re there or, you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:12 – 00:09:12
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:09:12 – 00:09:13
a circumstance like yourself.
Victoria Volk
00:09:13 – 00:09:25
And I think that’s a really miscarriage. That’s a miscarriage of grief. And it also is for the person who is choosing that for themselves, because I mean like it or not, there is going to be grief there involved.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:25 – 00:09:25
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:2 – 00:09:40
You know? Even if it’s not, you know, felt the full weight of it in the moment, even years later, I have no doubts that there are women that experienced grief for many years later.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:40 – 00:10:05
Mhmm. But Yeah. I definitely agree. And after going through this experience myself and having an abortion for reasons that were just so filled with love and compassion, And I never been through what I guess we could call a a lifestyle abortion but I kind of had those misconceptions too. It’s like, oh, it just means they just they don’t want this baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:05 – 00:10:23
Like, this isn’t a wanted baby. But I realized, I think all of those decisions are made with the greatest amount of love and respect as well. It’s like, I don’t want this life for this child. There’s still so much love in that decision. Or like, I can’t do this to a child right now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:23 – 00:10:38
Like, that’s so much love. So, so much love. And, yes, you’re right. Of course, there will be grief there. Many people do experience grief with these decisions, whether it’s for medical reasons, whether it’s for lifestyle reasons.
Victoria Volk
00:10:39 – 00:10:51
What do you wish would have been different about that experience and what do you think needs to change in how women are supported
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:48 – 00:10:48
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:10:49 – 00:10:51
In the medical setting in particular.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:51 – 00:11:19
Yeah. Yeah. So there are some people who I like to look to England. They have a pretty good system set up when it’s going to be an abortion for medical reasons, for fetal anomaly, or the pregnant person’s health, they’re earmarked in a certain direction, and they end up going with bereavement midwives. So these are midwives who are grief-informed, hopefully, trauma informed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:11:20 – 00:11:59
They, you know, they see the family. They see the baby as a baby. They see it as palliative hospice care, which it really is. It’s it’s end-of-life care for that baby and for or to help the the mother or the pregnant person, you know not die. And they help people to get footprints or like, make a scrapbook or you know, they’ll bring in a chaplain or they’ll help you with the funeral arrangements.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:00 – 00:12:18
You know, it’s a it’s a death of a family member. And I think it’s that piece that was missing in my experience. Because of the laws, I ended up going to an abortion clinic, which put me in the box of lifestyle abortion. My husband was there with me, and we had so many tears and we asked for a private room. They said, oh, no.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:18 – 00:12:39
We don’t do that thing. We were asking for these things that other people get in some places. And in some hospitals worldwide, they will do this sort of bereavement care where they have a special room that’s on another floor, so you don’t hear the laboring women and then babies crying. We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a special extra room.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:39 – 00:13:03
We didn’t have a bereavement midwife. We didn’t have someone informed in grief. We didn’t have anyone saying, I’m sorry for your loss. They’re really very simple, compassionate things that I wish I would have had. The doctor who helped us, did understand our whole situation, and he did say, I’m, you know, I’m so sorry for your loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:03 – 00:13:37
So that meant so much. You know? It’s just those few words, like really seeing us as bereaved parents. And I asked for footprints and he was able to get them. So some pieces of my story do have some respect and honor and reverence in it, but a lot of it I mean, the counselor that they had on hand, I kept talking about grief and, like, asking for grief resources, and she was like, I don’t really know.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:40 – 00:13:59
And I thought, oh, you know, I thought, like, I can’t be the only one who’s coming here because their baby is sick and they’re grieving and they’re having to end a wanted pregnancy. But I guess maybe I was or I don’t know. So those are the things that I wish would have been different in my story.
Victoria Volk
00:13:59 – 00:14:00
Well, you know now that you weren’t because it’s more common than
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:00 – 00:14:00
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:14:01 – 00:14:06
3 times more common than stillbirth and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:06 – 00:14:08
Amazing.
Speaker 1
00:14:08 – 00:14:13
And I’m sure do you have a statistic, like a more recent recent statistic as far as how common this is overall?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:15 – 00:14:35
Oh, that’s that’s the most recent one. So that’s some research that came out of Europe, I think, combined with England because they do earmark these cases. They do have, like, specific categories. So they’re they are able to see, okay, this termination is a early induction. This termination is a pregnancy loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:37 – 00:15:00
And that research, yeah, came out of Europe a a few years ago. And they found that with the numbers that they have in Europe and England, these countries combined, the number of stillbirths are so many, and then the number of TFMR pregnancy loss, are 3 times as many as that number.
Victoria Volk
00:15:01 – 00:15:12
Do you know of any places in the United States that are implementing some sort of like what you just described for women going through this?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:13 – 00:15:40
Yes. Some of the better stories that I hear are coming out of some places in the US. I’ve heard some really good stories out of Washington DC and then other big hospitals across the nation. But they’re the bigger the bigger hospitals maybe who see more of these cases, and I think it’s really prior patients like me
Victoria Volk
00:15:41 – 00:15:41
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:41 – 00:15:46
Writing in or calling in or speaking up after and saying, why didn’t this happen?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:46 – 00:15:55
Or I read this story, and they got this kind of care. And why didn’t we have that? And I really believe that that’s why they get better care now.
Victoria Volk
00:15:56 – 00:16:20
There’s an organization called death with dignity, dying with dignity, 1 or the other. And, but their whole goal is to push legislation across the country in the United States for basically to die with for people to have the ability to die with dignity. And there’s a whole lot of things that go into that. But, I can see something like that being applied in this manner
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:20 – 00:16:20
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:21 – 00:16:40
for the situation, like for legislation to be put into place that requires hospitals and medical care staff and maybe even perhaps, you know, and I think it’s almost gonna take 1 like, lone ranger to blaze the trail and create some sort of independent facility. And then you know how it can kind of snowball from there
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:41 – 00:16:41
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:42 – 00:16:59
where women feel, more supported in that decision with all the things that you said that you wish would have been there for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:00 – 00:17:00
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:17:00 – 00:17:20
And on that note, I mean, grief is the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different, better, or more. And so how did you and your husband together and independently kind of work through that loss? And your daughter. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:21 – 00:17:22
Mmm. My daughter.
Victoria Volk
00:17:22 – 00:17:24
Or she had an awareness of you know, by the age of 3, we’ve already learned how to respond to most of life
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:25 – 00:17:25
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:17:25 – 00:17:26
already by 3.
Victoria Volk
00:17:26 – 00:17:28
So can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:29 – 00:18:08
So as a family and her my husband, and myself, we all went on our unique grief journeys. Some of it was together. We had a memorial service for her, and my daughter was there. I wanted her to take part. I wanted there to be, you know, some sort of symbolic recognition that, yes, a family member died in our family and, you know, this was your sibling and it’s okay to talk about it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:08 – 00:18:19
It’s okay to bring it up. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to make art about it. It’s okay to you know, like, she would draw. I don’t even know where this came from.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:19 – 00:18:39
Like, instinctively, she made these, like, stone funeral Karnes. I think that’s how you say it, where they, like, make these stone mounds, but they’re and her so my husband’s father died 2 weeks before our baby did
Victoria Volk
00:18:39 – 00:18:40
Oh, wow.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:40 – 00:19:01
As well. So there was there was a lot of grief and death awareness happening for her that month and in the months to follow. So I remember she said, this is for a. This is for grandfather. And she had made this stone, corn.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:01 – 00:19:25
And then she said, and this is for my sister. This is for Clara. And she had made kind of a smaller stone and brick structure. And she had placed them like right in front of both sides of our front door.
Victoria Volk
00:19:25 – 00:19:25
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:26 – 00:19:28
My husband, I saw him really throw himself into work, so he chose the, like stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:28 – 00:19:53
And, also, life is really short, so I really wanna provide for my family. I really want us to be okay. I see my wife really sub me, you know, really suffering physically and going through all this. So he would work late hours. He would he would listen to me when I wanted to talk about it, but not as much talking maybe more of just needing to stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:54 – 00:20:27
And for me, I think I did pretty much anything I could get my hands on. So I remember looking for a postpartum doula, looking for a grief or some sort of pregnancy loss practitioner to help me through. I did some emails with one of them. I did hire a postpartum doula. They urged me to do all of my creative things or new creative things, so drawing, painting.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:20:27 – 00:21:14
Well, some of those came later, maybe like a year or 2 later. But I did do some photography or even just like, mindless distracting things, like puzzles or little phone games and watching lighthearted TV to help with you know, those moments where it’s just like, oh, I’ve been thinking about this all day and just going over and over and over and over in my head about it. And no thoughts are going to fix these emotions. No thoughts are going to bring her back or help us go back in time and make sure that the egg and the sperm were the perfect quality, and then she wasn’t sick for whatever reason. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:14 – 00:21:38
I couldn’t go back in time to fix those things. I had to feel just a little bit more okay in that moment. I did a lot of sitting in the grass with my shoes off, my feet in the grass. So grounding just and I would just sit there. And then sometimes I would I would do, like, meditative walking, but I was so angry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:38 – 00:22:04
You know, I remember walking around my garden, and I live in Mexico, and the flowers bloom all year around here. And there was this amazing, like, huge red like, bigger than my head, red flower. And I would walk by it, and I would just get so angry. Like, why are you blooming and my baby isn’t here? Like, I’m walking by this beautiful flower, and it’s just in my face, and yet I knew, well, I just need to walk.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:04 – 00:22:13
I need to walk by it. I need to feel this anger. I need to sit with it. But then it would be like, okay. Time to go pick up my daughter.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:14 – 00:22:23
So it was hard to manage, you know, all the time and space that grief asks along with daily tasks.
Victoria Volk
00:22:24 – 00:22:28
Yeah. It’s like the stoneward spiral thought wheel was like you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:29 – 00:22:29
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:58
It’s like a tornado of thoughts, and I can just I was imagining it as you were walking around this flower and just I can feel from you. It’s just so important for people to hear that in those moments like you were you how you were able to just allow yourself to feel the anger. And I think so many people just don’t allow themselves to feel the anger because growing up, you’re taught that anger is wrong. It’s bad.
Victoria Volk
00:22:58 – 00:22:58
And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:58 – 00:23:02
Yeah. Even grief too. Like, push it down. Go to work.
Victoria Volk
00:23:02 – 00:23:06
But it is an element of grief. Anger is grief. Really.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:06 – 00:23:06
It is.
Victoria Volk
00:23:07 – 00:23:12
Did you like for your husband, you know, I meant not talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:23:12 – 00:23:26
And you said he kept himself very busy. Did he, did you see him? Did you view it as a stuffing down or did he find, did he eventually, did he start talking about it more or how did that change for him over time?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:28 – 00:23:48
Mmmm. He would have to come on and share his whole story because it’s pretty intense the way things ended up showing up for him quite later. But I guess I could say, eventually, he had some therapy, and I think that helped. So he was able to talk.
Victoria Volk
00:23:48 – 00:23:48
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:49- 00:23:54
And he’s also, a sweat lodge.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:55 – 00:23:58
He runs a sweat lodge,
Victoria Volk
00:23:58 – 00:23:58
Oh
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:59 – 00:24:09
He runs a sweat lodge,
and he has a spa. And so he works with crystals and massage. And so he so his work, I think even going to work and helping others
Victoria Volk
00:24:09 – 00:24:09
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:10 – 00:24:14
Or sometimes they’ll, like, trade massage. So he was also working through things at work.
Victoria Volk
00:24:14 – 00:24:15
Yeah. I can see that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:15 – 00:24:23
And he would go and he would go in the sweat lodge. He also sings. So he has his outlets. They’re just different than mine. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:24 – 00:24:28
Mhmm. And honoring that for each other. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
But like you said, he was able to he would listen to you and that’s sometimes all you need really is someone to just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:30 – 00:24:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:31 – 00:24:43
try and fix, just listen. And so I’m glad he was in that line of work because that probably actually is what helped him find his way eventually to therapy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:43 – 00:24:45
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:45 – 00:25:27
I was gonna ask too the question I had thought of earlier and then forgot. So growing up, what was, what were the messages? Because I how you articulated when your daughter was going through this, when you lost your baby, and then you’re talking about how it was important for you, for her, that she recognized grief and you had a lot of grief going on at the time, but how to allow her to channel it and honor her feelings and things like that. So what were what was your experience with grief growing up in the beliefs that you had about loss and like because in, you know, especially in my area, like German
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:28 – 00:25:30
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:25:30 – 00:25:34
Like or talk about our grief and what happens in the house?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:34 – 00:25:47
Yeah, stiff upper lip and all that and like, You know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and carry on. No. That’s definitely my lineage as well.
Victoria Volk
00:25:48 – 00:25:48
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:50 – 00:26:31
And I understand more now about what I experienced with grief than when it was actually going on. There really weren’t any close deaths until my grandmother died when I was yeah, I was already in my twenties. But she had a brother who died in World War 2. And, I mean, that would have been so many years ago, but my mother told me that on certain days you know, I don’t know what days. Now I imagine, oh, it was probably his birthday.
Victoria Volk
00:25:26 – 00:26:31
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:31 – 00:26:52
Or it could have been some milestone that her children were reaching and her brother wasn’t there to see it. Maybe it was even her own birthday. You know, the passing of time is really hard, especially since he would have died so young, like a very young man. And then here she was, like, living a full long life, and he’s not there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:52 – 00:27:22
Well, my mom would say you know, she would go in her room and cry. So in a way, you know, behind closed doors That’s my grief legacy. So why I decided to be so open and why I felt like it was so important? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a reaction to that like, seeing how it was so closed and not really talked about and like, get on with your life and just move along.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:23 – 00:27:30
I felt like it was important to talk about it and be open about it. And I saw my daughter hurting. I didn’t I didn’t want to just say, oh, just go to school. That didn’t feel right to me.
Victoria Volk
00:27:30 – 00:27:30
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:31 – 00:27:37
You know, just get back to school.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:37 – 00:27:48
Just throw yourself into your schoolwork. I never said anything like that to her. So maybe it’s a reaction to what I grew up with and felt like it wasn’t enough.
Victoria Volk
00:27:49 – 00:27:57
After all the people I’ve talked to, the 4 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I am like almost 190 episodes. Not all.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:57 – 00:27:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:27:58 – 00:28:18
So not all not all interviews, but I think there’s 2 camps of people. And like you just said, I think there’s people that grow up and learn these things about grief that are unhelpful and hurtful and self-sabotaging. And they see that contrast when they’re met with something in their lives.
Victoria Volk
00:28:18 – 00:28:29
And they remember that contrast of that experience. Like, we didn’t talk about it. And I felt shamed for or you know, if you have feel shame for bringing up the person’s name
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:29 – 00:28:29
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:28:30 – 00:28:40
because, you know, it makes other people uncomfortable or angry or sad or whatever it is. So there’s no room for your feelings. You know, you can grow up that way with no, there’s no room.
Victoria Volk
00:28:40 – 00:28:54
So then you step down and you don’t talk about it. Right? And then that continues through generations. And that’s what happens. But sometimes there’s camps of people, though, the other camp that sees that contrast and breaks that cycle.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:55 – 00:28:55
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:28:56 – 00:29:17
So congratulations on doing that because you teach your daughter how to respond to grief by how you respond to grief. And I think that’s the message that I want to get across and why I started this podcast is because I’m a child griever.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:17 – 00:29:17
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:18 – 00:29:21
My dad died when I was young, and there was like,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:23 – 00:29:27
yeah, it’s like resources. No talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:29:27 – 00:29:30
Yep. Or well, in my case,
Victoria Volk
00:29:30 – 00:29:35
it was there was a lot of talking about it from my mother. Of course, she lost her husband, but just no room for me.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:35 – 00:29:35
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:36 – 00:29:48
That’s what I was getting at is that even though it is talked about yet, it’s not where you feel you can share. Like, you can’t share.
Victoria Volk
00:29:49 – 00:29:57
There’s no open sharing. And that’s there’s all kinds of family dynamics and how that plays out and different scenarios and circumstances. And we could sit here all day long about all of those. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:57 – 00:30:02
Oh, yeah. I’ve been the stories about that too. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:03 – 00:30:16
Condenses down to either you learn these things and you continue that pattern onto your kids or you break that cycle because you see the importance of what you would have wanted for yourself and then create that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:16 – 00:30:17
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:17
for your children
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:32
for the legacy that follows behind. So that’s I think that’s a very important takeaway for people listening to this, who have children who are going through grieving experiences too, because like you said, it’s she lost her sister too, even though she was 4
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:32 – 00:30:32
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:30:32 – 00:30:43
years old. And it’s very easy for parents to assume that, oh, they’re so little. They don’t understand. Anyway, I was 8 and people were saying that I see 8 year olds now. And I’m like, wow.
Victoria Volk
00:30:43 – 00:30:52
Like, I don’t know if I was that articulate or that I was that smart, but I would hope I was., Like, 8 year olds understand. Come on. Like, really?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:52 – 00:30:53
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:53 – 00:31:54
And so do 4 year olds. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:55 – 00:30:55
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:55 – 00:31:02
Thank you for sharing in that as much as you did because I think it’s important for people to hear. No matter the loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:03 – 00:31:30
Thank you. Thank you, Victoria. Yeah. I even said to my daughter a couple days ago, I just said, I really appreciate how you opened up to me and what you shared about, you know, your sadness. And, you know, when Clara we named her Clara when Clara died and how we went through that together.
Victoria Volk
00:31:31 – 00:31:35
And in the work that you’re doing today, you can share that experience with people too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:35 – 00:31:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:31:35 – 00:31:54
If they have other children that are experiencing that loss as the fam, you know, with along with the family unit. And so, or when did you start doing the work that you’re doing? Because the loss happened in 2018, but when did you finally feel ready to, support others?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:56 – 00:31:59
Mmm. So, symbolically, I feel like I started while I was in the recovery chair.
Victoria Volk
00:31:59 – 00:32:01
Mmm. Like many people do.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:01 – 00:32:19
You know, after I had had my I guess we could call it a d and c, And I was like, where’s my doula? Like, there’s no one here saying, how are you feeling? Or I’m sitting here beside you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:19 – 00:32:32
Can I hold your hand? Would you like water? Something like that. You know, just those simple, caring things that we need, especially in very early grief. And with pregnancy loss, it’s a grief through your body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:32 – 00:33:00
So there’s, like, the physical recovery that needs to happen. So I was thinking, where is she? And then I realized I’m going to be her. That’s what I wanna do. And then I also realized, and I need to go through my own healing process first so that I can fully show up for other people from a healed place.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:02 – 00:33:40
So it was mid 2020, the fall of 2020. By the time I created an Instagram account, the TFMR doula, and just started bringing people together. And we would, you know, talk in stories or in the comments and making connections with other pregnancy loss spaces. And then I created a Facebook group for us to go a little bit deeper and have more conversations in a place where no one else is coming in and being like, well, I wouldn’t have made that choice. It’s like, thank you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:40 – 00:33:41
That’s unhelpful.
Victoria Volk
00:33:41 – 00:33:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:42 – 00:34:18
You know, just like people who their loved one has died by suicide, you know, they deserve to have a special space there because there’s certain layers that only they will be going through. Or if they’ve been a long-term caregiver for Alzheimer’s or cancer or something, and then their loved loved one dies. You know? They have all that anticipatory grief years to to talk about and being in groups where where people just understand, you know, the hardships and the things that other people say to you when you’re going through all of this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:18 – 00:34:34
It’s good to have those specific places for people who have been through it with other people who have been through. I mean, I can’t say exactly. All of our cases are unique, but, yeah, exactly that type of loss.
Victoria Volk
00:34:34 – 00:34:34
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:35 – 00:34:37
And that was, like, during COVID started
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:37 – 00:34:39
It was.
Victoria Volk
00:34:39 – 00:34:40
So how did that, like I mean, there’s grief in that too. Like, you just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:40 – 00:34:40
Oh,
Victoria Volk
00:34:41 – 00:34:7
so much. Thing. I know. I started my business doing grief work and stuff 2019,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:47 – 00:34:47
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:48 – 00:34:49
early 2019.
Victoria Volk
00:34:49 – 00:35:14
And I gained so much momentum. And I was doing in person talks and things like that and doing in person groups. And then COVID hit, and it’s like but that’s when I took, you know, the opportunity to just get a lot more training and certifications online and just build my toolbox. And so that’s what I did during that time. But what it how did you kind of deal with that?
Victoria Volk
00:35:14 – 00:35:24
Because there’s this thing here. You just birthed out, and then it’s like, oh, I mean, no pun intended. That was a terrible pun. Like, that I’m sorry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:25 – 00:35:25
Oh, gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:35:25 – 00:35:26
I just thought that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:26 – 00:35:28
But yeah. No. But it’s a birth. Right? It is.
Speaker 2
00:35:28 – 00:35:31
It’s a Mother. Yeah. It’s birth from love. Right? Because you you birthed
Victoria Volk
00:35:31 – 00:35:33
it out of your experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:33 – 00:35:35
So It is. It is.
Victoria Volk
00:35:36 – 00:35:36
Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:36 – 00:35:45
It is. And so I was unable to do the in person pregnancy loss doula work that I wanted to.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:45 – 00:36:19
You know, I really wanted to be the sit by your side in that recovery chair and hold your hand and say, yeah. It’s okay to cry because you’re a bereaved mother and all the things that I needed to hear. And I also knew that I wanted to do the bulk of my support services online, So I already knew that I wanted most of it to be virtual. Like, the big community aspect of it, I always had in mind that it was going to be virtual. So whenever when everything went virtual, it helped in a way because then other people were open to receiving support in virtual ways.
Victoria Volk
00:36:21 – 00:36:24
That’s true. Yeah. That’s a good point.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:25 – 00:36:35
But that was that was my specific situation where I always knew I wanted, you know, most of it to be virtual so that we can meet internationally. Right.
Victoria Volk
00:36:35 – 00:36:39
It’s more accessible. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:39 – 00:36:39
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:40 – 00:37:01
And that’s the thing I think that came out of COVID is that so many of these resources that exist today are because the virtual and people are more open to that because that is the way of the world now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:58 – 00:36:58
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:58 – 00:37:01
So there’s more availability, but there’s also, like you said, more buy in where people are more apt to give it a chance and see if it’ll work for them.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:01 – 00:37:12
Yeah. So when I started doing live workshops or like little support groups and it was on Zoom, I knew that people already had that program at least.
Victoria Volk
00:37:12 – 00:37:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:13 – 00:37:16
They were familiar with it, so I could just say Zoom. I didn’t need to explain what it was.
Victoria Volk
00:37:16 – 00:37:16
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:16 – 00:37:53
Because before 2020, anything that was online, if you weren’t already like an online entrepreneur or something, you didn’t know all of these programs and the terms and the things. But now, we’ve all been educated on doing it all online, which it can get exhausting too in some sense. And now that, you know, COVID is not at its height, we do wanna do in-person annual retreats as well because it is important to meet. It is important to get those hugs.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:53 – 00:38:18
It is important to, you know, see people face to face. And I wanna have those experiences too, where we can really see I’m really not alone in this. Here’s another flesh and blood person who has made this choice, who loves their baby deeply, who is grieving just as deeply as I am. And here we are sitting together.
Victoria Volk
00:38:19 – 00:38:20
And in Mexico. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:20 – 00:38:28
Yes. I mean, great. So come and come and get some sun. Come and spray. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:28 – 00:38:34
We we may end up doing the next one in in the US, though, because a lot of my community members are in the US.
Victoria Volk
00:38:36 – 00:38:53
So what were some of the ways I mean, I know that there was a lot that wasn’t there for you, but what were some of the ways that other people supported you that you found helpful, most helpful during that time and either for your daughter or for your husband or for yourself or as a family? Like, what would you share with people?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:54 – 00:39:13
For myself, the biggest resource, the most helpful resource was a another Facebook group. And they were the inspiration for me creating my own as well. And they and they’re still functioning. They’re a great community. They’re called ending a wanted pregnancy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:14 – 00:39:41
I think it’s just ending a wanted pregnancy dot com. And you go through this application process, and then you’re in the Facebook group with only other people who have been through it or their immediate partners. You know, there are no health professionals who just wanna know how to help other people. There are no grandparents or siblings who you know, wanna like, look in.
Victoria Volk
00:39:42 – 00:39:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:42 – 00:39:44
It’s completely closed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:44 – 00:40:08
And so because I knew that that community was so highly screened and closed and I think even secret. So at that time, Facebook had secret groups. They’ve changed their settings. It’s something else. I mean, it still kind of exists in that way where no one else on your friend on your friend list can see that you’re in this group.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:08 – 00:40:23
No one else can even, like, search for it and see, like, who the members are. It’s unsearchable. It’s secret. So I knew this was a safe place. I was able to bring all of these emotions and feelings that I couldn’t talk to anybody else.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:23 – 00:40:59
I had a place to bring it to, and I could read what other people were feeling and thinking and going through and struggling with and ways that they were honoring their babies and you know, how they were taking part in broad pregnancy loss spaces as well. And I remember thinking, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can help myself in that way too. Oh, I can honor my baby in that way. So that was a really beautiful experience finding that group and taking part.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:59 – 00:41:15
You know, I’ve made amazing friendships through people in that group. And like I said, they inspired me to open another Facebook group. And since then, we have more. There are more. I mean, not that many, maybe like a dozen.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:15 – 00:41:34
But more than at the time when I went through it, it was basically just that group and maybe some anonymous forum that was visible to the public on baby center at that time. Now people tend to go to Reddit for that sort of anonymous experience, which has its place too.
Victoria Volk
00:41:36 – 00:41:42
Would you mind sharing your Facebook page, what it’s called? Can is it searchable, or is yours also private and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:42 – 00:41:59
Well, it my mine is searchable, but it’s closed. No one can see that you’re in it. But I do also do a application process. So it’s on my website, thetfmrdoula.com/facebookgroup. All one word.
Victoria Volk
00:42:01 – 00:42:04
And I will put the link to that in the show notes as well.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:04 – 00:42:13
Thank you. Yeah. It’s it’s a a wonderful space. And it’s a community space. You know, I started it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:13 – 00:42:34
I run it. I facilitate. I facilitate the space for people to come and share their stories and give and get support and ask the questions that they can’t ask anywhere else because other people just say, oh, well, just be grateful that you have 2 other living kids
Victoria Volk
00:42:35 – 00:42:35
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:35 – 00:42:39
Or like, you’ll get pregnant again. It’s like, what? Like, can you imagine?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:39 – 00:42:47
Well, you’ll get married again. Or, like, you still have your mom. You don’t need your dad. Like, okay. The things that people say.
Victoria Volk
00:42:49 – 00:43:55
Without thinking. Really. I mean, like, if you say it back to them like, did you I mean, just let me say that back to you out loud so you can hear it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:56 – 00:42:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:42:56 – 00:43:00
Does that sound okay?
Victoria Volk
00:43:01 – 00:43:09
I mean, what’s what about that sounds okay? It’s almost like, you know, I’m I, I just developed a pet loss program.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:10 – 00:42:10
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:10 – 00:43:17
And, it’s not launched yet, but it’s it’s like people so commonly especially with pets, like, you can just get another pet. And it’s like, okay. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:17 – 00:43:20
Well, yeah, you can, and it’s not that pet that you
Victoria Volk
00:43:21 – 00:43:25
Right. It’s like people don’t say that too, like, when your grand when your mom dies.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:25 – 00:43:25
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:43:26 – 00:43:28
Well, you can just get a mom. Just get another mom. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:28 – 00:43:31
Just get another one.
Victoria Volk
00:43:31 – 00:43:32
It’s, yeah, it’s one of the myths
Victoria Volk
00:43:32 – 00:43:33
of grief is replace the loss and,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:34 – 00:43:34
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:43:34 – 00:43:42
You know, it’s one of those things we all learn to do. Right? We learn how to acquire things and people, not what to do when we lose them. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:42 – 00:43:45
Oh, that’s a really good quote, Victoria.
Victoria Volk
00:43:45 – 00:43:50
It is. It is. There was something on you I was gonna ask you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:50 – 00:43:51
Sure.
Victoria Volk
00:43:51 – 00:43:56
What advice to other grievers desiring to create meaning from their grief?
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:12
And, you know, when I say create meaning that can that kind of rubs some people the wrong way. Like you have to create meaning, you have to do something big, but you don’t. It it’s I think it, I think a part of creating meaning or finding meaning, not that everything happens for a reason. Like, sometimes
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:12 – 00:44:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:13 – 00:44:17
that can ruffle people’s feathers too. Rightfully so.
Victoria Volk
00:44:17 – 00:44:42
Acceptance is a huge part of creating meaning. Personally, I think that you know, once you get to that place of acceptance of like, you can’t change the past, right? You can’t, but you can, you have a choice in how you transmute the emotions and the feelings that you experienced and move forward. And you’ve done that in a very beautiful way and enough service to others. And not everybody has to, you know, take on something like that.
Victoria Volk
00:44:42 – 00:44:42
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:42 – 00:44:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:43 – 00:44:45
And not everybody is capable of that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:45 – 00:44:45
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:46 – 00:44:59
Like, you know, it’s a it’s not a burden. And that’s the thing I think where people shy away from seeking help to is they don’t want to be a burden to other people. And that’s a lot of what keeps people isolated in their grief.
Victoria Volk
00:44:59 – 00:45:13
But I’ll get to the question here. But what advice would you give to others who desire to do something like you have done? And maybe a different way, but just do something with their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:14 – 00:45:32
Mmm. Yeah. I like to talk about not thinking of it as, like, look for the what do we call it in the cloud? The silver lining. You know, we’re not looking for you know, there’s no silver lining in my baby dying in such a horrendous taboo way. There’s no silver lining there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:33 – 00:46:21
There just isn’t. And I like to think of well, I have this little mini framework that I share with my clients and that I need to share with my community on a whole. It’s like this cycle of holding and honoring our emotions. And I think this can help people get to this place where they’re even doing tiny things that can help. And it may help them, you know, create meaning, find meaning, or it may help them, you know, just that day feel a little bit closer or feel more connected to their baby or even feel more connected to themselves or feel just a little bit more calm in the storm of grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:22 – 00:46:28
There are 3 steps, but they go around and around. You know? Just like grief is a cycle. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:46:28 – 00:46:30
Just like you did a lot of meditation around the flower. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:30 – 00:46:42
Yeah. Yeah. We just go around. We go around, and then we come back to the same place, but we have a little bit more knowledge this time, and we’re gonna go a little bit deeper. It might be even more like a spiral too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:42 – 00:46:46
Although, you know, I don’t want you to spiral out. Not that sort of spiral.
Victoria Volk
00:46:46 – 00:46:47
In a good way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:48 – 00:47:19
Yeah. Spiraling deeper into the meaning or the love or the connection. So I start with acknowledge, just acknowledging that you’re having this body sensation instead of pushing it away. And also being very very gentle with this stage because I would say, with early grief, it’s very intense. And early grief can be a year, 2 years for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:20 – 00:47:35
So we just take, you know, like, one little sensation like my heart. You know? It’s tight. Just noticing that sensation. And even trying to notice without putting any labels on it yet.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:36 – 00:47:55
Even without saying it’s my heart or it’s this sensation or it’s this name of the thing. We don’t even have to put a label on it. So just acknowledging that it’s there. And I stayed in this place for a really long time. All of those things that I was talking about, like, with my with my feet in the grass, it would just be like, I’m just feeling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:56 – 00:48:26
I’m just feeling, and I’m just you know, it’s just like flowing down into the earth, or I’m I’m walking, and I’m just feeling all of these sensations. And, like, my brain can’t even put a label on it yet, and that’s fine. It’s okay to stay in this acknowledging place for as long as you need to. And then if you feel ready, you can move to the part of the cycle that I like to think of, as a sign. So then you can begin to assign it an emotion name.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:48:26 – 00:49:02
So like I said, like anger, you know, is feeling so angry at the world and life and you know, even mother nature for screwing up my, you know, somewhere in the genetics or the creation or the, you know, the way that she was forming or maybe, you know, there’s something wrong with my own uterus or whatever. I was just so angry at all of those things and just, like, feeling the anger. And it and it’s okay to label it, like anger. You know? I’m feeling the anger.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:02 – 00:49:22
I’m actually feeling this emotion. And then and then if that feels okay, if you’d like to move to the next part of the cycle, I think of this part as a, oh, so we went or assign. Now we’re at align. And you can align in different ways. This is gonna be unique.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:22 – 00:50:01
This is gonna be your own self-care that works for you, whatever you need in that moment or maybe the first tiny step for something bigger that you want to do. You know, a lot of people do advocacy in TFMR. Like, they want to write a letter to their representative and tell their story and say, you know, the laws really hurt me and my family and my baby in this way, and this is what I went through. So maybe when you get to a line, maybe it’s like, okay. I’m gonna take out a piece of paper, or I’m gonna open a blank document on my computer and give it a name, letter to my representative.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:02 – 00:50:31
That could be your align. So it’s doing something for the sensations and the emotions that you’re having, and then we’re gonna transform, transmute. I like to think of transmutation and transformation more than finding meaning because we’re taking these sensations and emotions, and then you can do something with them. Emotion, e motion, it’s movement. It’s it wants to move.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:31 – 00:51:03
It wants to move through you. It wants to move through and even out of you. But we were never taught how. I, at least, I was never taught how. I had to, you know, figure it out on my own through doing it and through, you know, being in a relationship with my husband and like, seeing my own daughter’s grief and then being in these grief communities and being in these TFMR communities and talking to other pregnancy loss parents and seeing the ways that they were aligning.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:03 – 00:51:22
You know? Sometimes I would only see that part of their cycle because that can’t be outward. It can’t be inward. So maybe I was seeing how they were, aligning in a way in their life. And then once we align a little bit, then maybe new sensations come about in the body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:23 – 00:51:44
And so that’s why it’s a cycle. So then you can begin to acknowledge those sensations or those feelings as well. And you can go through the cycle as, you know, we’ll go through it an infinite amount of times in our lifetime if we’re lucky, if we get the time, if we get the chance to do it.
Victoria Volk
00:51:44 – 00:51:57
And the key thing you said there is connecting with ourselves and our emotions are in our body, because it is what you went through and what other women go through in this experience is very much a body experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:58 – 00:51:59
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:04
So it’s connecting back to the body to heal the body from within out.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:04 – 00:52:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:28
I’m curious if because the work your husband does, if you utilize some of those things and have considered or maybe you’ve already done this where you’ve had brought in women who have experienced this into his place of where he works and to experience these tools that he has to help women connect with themselves in that way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:28 – 00:52:31
Oh, it’s definitely going to be a part of the live retreats.
Victoria Volk
00:52:31 – 00:52:32
That’s for sure.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:32 – 00:52:41
For sure. For sure. And I’ve been thinking about well, since I set everything up virtually, I just continue to do everything virtually.
Victoria Volk
00:52:41 – 00:52:41
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:41 – 00:53:19
I don’t have a local group yet, but, there is a midwife in town who would like me to run a group and I would definitely invite them, you know, after, you know, 6 weeks or after a few months of coming to these circles. Maybe we’ll do, you know, a quarterly sweat lodge experience. And my husband actually gets a lot of people who come to him, maybe not right after a loss, but in that time, you’ll understand the time period. About 3 or 4 months out or, like, a year out.
Victoria Volk
00:53:19 – 00:53:19
Mhmm. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:20 – 00:53:39
With a big loss or life transitions, and then they go and they want to really mark that transition with a ritual, which is something that the sweat lodge can help you do or take partaking in a sweat.
Victoria Volk
00:53:41 – 00:53:51
Very cool. I think you’ve got a lot of amazing things brewing and I’m excited to see what, what comes of it for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:52 – 00:53:52
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:53:52- 00:53:55
I am curious. Did you have any more children?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:55 – 00:53:55
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:55- 00:53:56
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:56 – 00:54:23
I was able to get pregnant again after my loss. And I would say that pregnancy is really was the second hardest thing that I’ve done in my life after you know, going through the termination, after going through losing my baby.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:36
That’s why I asked because, it’s like when people wanna replace a dog. Right? It’s like, how do you know you’re ready? And people often just don’t even think about that. They just replace the dog and you’re not replacing the loss by having another child. That’s not what I’m saying. Although people can have that perception.
Victoria Volk
00:54:36 – 00:54:42
Right? Like, you wanna feel better, so you just you can just have another child. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:42 – 00:54:45
That’s what people say. Yeah. The people say that.
Victoria Volk
00:54:45 – 00:54:46
People say that. You can have more kids.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:47 – 00:54:48
Not everyone can.
Victoria Volk
00:54:49 – 00:54:50
Right? Exactly.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:50 – 00:54:52
Exactly. And then
Victoria Volk
00:54:52 – 00:54:55
so the when they say that, they’re making the assumption that, yes, you can too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:56 – 00:54:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:56 – 00:54:57
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:59 – 00:54:59
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:59 – 00:55:02
Like, howdid you know? Like or how did you come to that? And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:02 – 00:55:27
Well, I think of my the loss of my baby as the primary loss, the primary death.
Victoria Volk
00:55:12 – 00:55:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:13 – 00:55:27
There are also other things that were lost. So I lost this vision of having 2 children in my family. I lost this, you know, the hopes and desires to have my oldest daughter not be a only child.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:28 – 00:55:55
I wanted to have, you know, more than one kid. I wanted to have 2 or 3. I guess I do have 3 now in a way. But 2 living and then the one that died. And I knew that it was going to be hard, and the desire to have another child was stronger than the fear.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:56 – 00:56:27
That was when I knew that I was ready to really go back into battle. Most people who go through a termination for medical reasons do develop, like, full-blown PTSD. You know, it’s like going to war. And so if you think of it like we’re warriors who have been to this battle or war and lost. Now we’re being asked to go right back to the same battlefield.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:29 – 00:56:55
You know, it’s the same sensations. Maybe you pull out the same, you know, pregnancy pants. Maybe it’s even, like, the same season. Some people, you know, just the dates, like, all line-up and they’re going to their 12-week scan on March 12th again the next year. So they’re very crazy feelings that you that you go through.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:56 – 00:57:14
Because you’re going through it again. And then the anger too, you feel very I remember being very angry throughout the 1st trimester and thinking, you know, I feel so tired. I feel like crap. You know, I feel like I’m gonna throw up all the time. I already went through this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:15 – 00:57:53
You know? Why do I have to go through this again? And of course, I was so thrilled to be pregnant again and to hopefully, you know, have a baby, have a have another sibling and to hopefully have those experiences that I was dreaming of you know, to have 2 kids or more than 2 kids and to have, like, a bigger family. I mean, it’s not a big family to have 2 kids, but, bigger than 1, bigger than just parenting 1. And I mean, I had EMDR therapist.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:53 – 00:58:23
I had my acupuncturist. I had different doctors. I had the high-risk doctor that I was going to. I had the same doula that I my postpartum doula then became my doula through that pregnancy. In the pregnancy loss spaces, I found, like, specific monthly threads or places where people were talking about being pregnant again after loss or even more specifically being pregnant again after TFMR.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:25 – 00:58:43
I had a really good friend who we would check-in every day. We were like, I don’t know. Our dates, like, lined up we were already in contact, and then we were both trying to conceive, and then we, like both got pregnant probably on, like, the same day. And so, you know, it’s like, here we are in week 1. Now we’re in week 2.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:43 – 00:58:59
We checked in every single day with each other, and it would just be in the morning, I’d be like, oh my gosh. I’m so scared. And I would open, you know, my Messenger app or whatever, and there’s her message saying the same thing. So I didn’t feel so alone.
Victoria Volk
00:58:59 – 00:58:59
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:01 – 00:59:03
That was how I got through that pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:59:04 – 00:59:06
With a lot of support, it sounds like.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:06 – 00:59:15
A lot. I needed a lot of support. I needed all of it, and I really pulled on all of it. And it was really hard on my husband too. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:15 – 00:59:19
We were scared every single day that we would lose her too.
Victoria Volk
00:59:20 – 00:59:21
And what’s her name?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:21 – 00:59:23
Her name is Aya.
Victoria Volk
00:59:23 – 00:59:25
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:25 – 00:59:27
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:59:27 – 00:59:37
It’s like the, what you said, it’s holding on to the both and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:32 – 00:59:32
Uh-huh
Victoria Volk
00:59:32 – 00:59:37
it’s the feelings of fear and an excitement at the same time, enjoy,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:37 – 00:59:37
right
Victoria Volk
00:59:37 – 00:59:42
It’s the both and like, it’s like holding the feelings and the reality at the same time.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:43 – 00:59:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:59:43 – 00:59:53
And that’s a tricky thing to do. And so I thank you for sharing that aspect of your story, because I think it’ll be helpful for people who are going through that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:53 – 01:00:03
Yeah. And I have a monthly thread in my Facebook group too, and I started a monthly live Zoom for us as well.
Victoria Volk
01:00:03 – 01:00:05
Awesome.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:05 – 01:00:19
Mhmm. Because I remember how hard it was. I mean, she’s 4 now, and still even around, even around her birthday I start thinking about you know, everything that we went through just to get to that point.
Victoria Volk
01:00:20 – 01:00:34
On your form, there’s a question I ask. I don’t know if you remember what you answered, but I wanna share it if you don’t remember. But it’s what would you like to scream to the world in the past or recently in which people knew about your grief?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:35 – 01:00:40
Did I write TFMR is pregnancy loss?
Victoria Volk
01:00:38 – 01:00:38
Yes
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:38 – 01:00:40
TFMR is pregnancy yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:40 – 01:00:45
Yes. And then you added something else. You said treat me gently
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:45 – 01:00:47
I don’t read it. Can you read it?
Victoria Volk
01:00:47 – 01:00:50
Yeah. Treat me gently as you would any grieving parent.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:52 – 01:00:55
That’s it. That’s the one.
Victoria Volk
01:00:56 – 01:01:10
I thought that was beautiful. And so I think it’s a great place to tie this episode up with a bow for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:06 – 01:01:06
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
01:01:07 – 01:01:10
Grief is grief, no matter the circumstance. And we all agree that 100%. So treat each other gently.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:11 – 01:01:11
Wonderful.
Victoria Volk
01:01:11 – 01:01:16
Thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else you would like to share though that you didn’t get to?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:18 – 01:02:09
I think I shared what was on my heart today. And maybe one more thing, just if you’re going through this or if you’ve been through this and you’re and you’re just finding the acronym and you’re just finding these places or you’re still looking for support around this type of pregnancy loss, just know that it is out there. And I know it’s really hard, like the onus is on the grieving person to go out and find support in a time where you’re just so exhausted. And it’s so worth it. It’s so worth it to keep searching until you find the space and the people who can really support you because it will make all of the difference in the world.
Victoria Volk
01:02:10 – 01:02:14
And if you’re a helper, sometimes helpers need help too.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:14 – 01:02:15
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:16 – 01:02:18
That’s what I’ve found even personally.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:19 – 01:02:27
Mmm. Oh, yeah. No. I have a lot of therapists, teachers, nurses in my community.
Victoria Volk
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:28 – 01:02:52
Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. And, I look forward to sharing this episode and I will put all the links to what you shared in the show notes for people to quickly and easily find support if they’re needing it. And thank you for listening today. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Death/Dying, Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Pespective |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Are you truly living if you’re ignoring the inevitable end? This question might feel heavy, but Greg Barnsdale doesn’t shy away from it; he has built a movement around it.
Greg is not your typical undertaker. With his diverse background as a Certified Financial Planner, Certified Executor Advisor, and death doula – topped with personal experiences that have tested his own mortality – he brings an unparalleled perspective to life’s final chapter.
In this episode:
- Uncover the life-changing benefits of adopting a ‘mortality mindset.’
- Learn how planning for the end can actually enhance your present.
- Hear about Greg’s transformative journey from near-death to advocacy.
- Explore why families must break the silence on this taboo topic before time runs out.
Did You Know?
Despite being an expert in end-of-life matters himself, even Greg faced procrastination regarding his arrangements. His candid story will challenge you to think differently about tomorrow.
After penning a book on end-of-life preparation and facing his brain tumor diagnosis, Greg has become a vocal proponent of what he calls the “mortality mindset movement.” He shares his insights into why embracing our inevitable end can lead to profound benefits like stress reduction, family harmony, and emotional resilience.
Greg’s diverse background, from directing funerals to advising on estates, gives him a unique perspective on why having those tough conversations about death now is critical rather than in times of crisis. His own brush with mortality served as a stark reminder that life is unpredictable and planning ahead is key.
We also delve into how societal views on funerals are shifting towards more personal and intimate commemorations. Plus, Greg offers practical advice for both simple DIY estate planning and when to seek professional help for more complex scenarios.
His message? Don’t wait until it’s too late – start talking about your end-of-life wishes today. It’s not just about ensuring peace of mind; it’s about living fully right up until the last moment.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Embracing Mortality: Living Fully by Planning for the End
Death is a subject that many of us prefer to avoid. It’s uncomfortable, it’s frightening, and it often feels very distant from the vibrancy of daily life. However, Greg Barnsdell—a man who wears many hats as an undertaker, financial planner, certified executor advisor, and death doula—argues that acknowledging our mortality can be one of the most profound actions we take toward living a meaningful life.
In this episode of “Grieving Voices,” Greg shares his personal journey with mortality after being diagnosed with a brain tumor. His experience has led him to become a vocal advocate for what he calls the “mortality mindset movement.” This philosophy encourages individuals not only to accept their inevitable end but also to prepare for it in ways that leave behind a positive legacy.
The Unseen Benefits of End-of-Life Planning
Greg emphasizes how planning for our demise can offer unexpected gifts:
– **Reduced Stress:** Knowing your affairs are in order provides peace of mind.
– **Family Harmony:** Clear directives alleviate potential conflicts among loved ones during times of grief.
– **Financial Resilience:** Proper planning secures assets and ensures they are distributed according to your wishes.
Despite these benefits, procrastination is common. Host Victoria confesses her own hesitation on this front—an admission shared by many listeners.
A Life Unexpectedly Intertwined With Death
Greg’s career trajectory took an unplanned detour into funeral services when his dreams of becoming a helicopter pilot didn’t pan out. Through his varied experiences in both funeral directing and financial planning, he gained unique insights into why preparing for death is crucial—not just at life’s end but throughout its entirety.
He advocates having candid conversations about death within families before crisis strikes. These discussions prevent confusion and strife during moments already heavy with emotion—the grieving process becomes slightly more bearable when there’s clarity about final wishes.
Personal Loss as Powerful Motivation
The sudden loss of Greg’s mother was pivotal; she had thoughtfully prepared for her passing which greatly eased her family’s burden during their time of mourning. Her foresight served as inspiration; even those seemingly healthy can have their lives change—or end—instantly due to unforeseen events or health issues like falls or illnesses.
As someone who has faced my own health scares head-on—including surgery related to my brain tumor—I understand firsthand how quickly one’s perspective on life (and death) can shift when confronted with one’s vulnerability.
My book aims not only at inspiring others but also serves as my testament—to urge people not just to think about these matters but to act upon them while they still have agency over their decisions. Yet ironically enough, I found myself facing down my own advice shortly following its publication when I was thrust into confronting my mortality anew through illness—it reinforced everything I preached about early communication regarding end-of-life choices.
Legacy Isn’t Just About Assets – It’s About Intentions
I’ve learned through both professional encounters and personal trials that appreciating each day isn’t merely platitudinal—it requires action so you may influence your legacy positively posthumously. Discussions around wills or medical directives should find space amidst family gatherings rather than waiting until necessity demands urgency—and potentially breeds conflict.
For some individuals without complex estates or familial ties such estate planning might seem straightforward enough to tackle alone—but caution should be taken here too because oversights could result in significant emotional strain later on if plans aren’t thorough.
Living intentionally means recognizing every day offers opportunities towards crafting the narrative you wish left behind once you’re gone—that includes making informed decisions around funerals too which increasingly lean away from traditional practices towards personalized memorials reflecting individual beliefs preferences whether religious cultural otherwise.
Finally sharing knowledge via social media platforms like TikTok where viral videos spread awareness quicker than ever before helps bridge generational gaps ensuring messages reach wider audiences faster than traditional methods would allow thus helping demystify topics previously shrouded by taboo silence fear misunderstanding alike.
So remember preparation isn’t pessimistic—it acknowledges reality embraces certainty empowers control creating lasting impact beyond measure securing tranquility amidst uncertainty embracing every moment fully along way.
To learn more and delve deeper into these concepts consider picking up “Do Not Ignore Your Mortality” available online through major retailers including Amazon connect further via LinkedIn, Facebook searching for either author name book title respectively let conversation continue grow evolve together society whole better off knowing ready anything comes next no matter what may be.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:14
Welcome to another episode of Grieving Voices. Today, my guest is Greg Barnsdell. He is an unusual undertaker. After years of stressing to others, get your grief get your excuse me, Get your affairs in order.
Victoria Volk
00:00:14 – 00:00:39
And finally publishing a book to inspire others, he was diagnosed with a large brain tumor. Faced with a death sentence, he opted for surgery. He’s now emerged with an extremely compelling message shared by few others. As a certified financial planner who is also a certified executor advisor, his perspectives are unique. As a death doula who has published a well received book regarding the importance of planning and ahead.
Victoria Volk
00:00:39 – 00:01:16
His message is gaining solid traction. He stresses what he calls the mortality mindset movement where followers uphold their living legacy and becoming the best versions of themselves and ultimately leave their last legacy as the best one possible. His claims include the fact that end of life planning reduces the stress of aging, improves family harmony, creates greater emotional and financial resilience and increases social capital and improves court efficiency. And a growing number of people firmly agree. And as an end of life doula myself, I wholeheartedly agree as well.
Victoria Volk
00:01:16 – 00:01:35
But have I personally done my own homework? I will admit that I have not. I think about it a lot, actually. Like, just even the fact that when you have a business, right, like, it’s even more important that I mean, I was just thinking about it the other day. I’m thinking, oh, my gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:01:35 – 00:02:02
Like, if because I have an 18/17 and 15-year-old. And if I something happened to me, and I’m just thinking about my business and all these accounts and different like auto like this, all these autopay stuff I have, like all of this stuff, like, oh, my gosh, That’d be so overwhelming for my loved ones. You know, incredibly overwhelming. And my husband is not, like, tech-savvy at all. He would be just completely distraught.
Victoria Volk
00:02:02 – 00:02:21
So I know a lot of it would fall probably on my middle. And she’s only 17. Yeah, I need to get my act together too. So thank you so much for joining me today and maybe encouraging all of us to finally get our affairs in order and doing some planning ahead.
Greg Barnsdale
00:02:23 – 00:02:41
Well, thank you for having me Victoria it’s a It’s a tough topic, isn’t it? And it’s something that a lot of us don’t want to face because we just assume that each day will carry on and tomorrow will be the same as today and yesterday was. It’s not an easy subject to think about.
Victoria Volk
00:02:42 – 00:02:46
How many years have you been working in the death space?
Greg Barnsdale
00:02:46 – 00:03:39
Well, I’ve worked in a number of different roles, back in the, I’m almost 60 now. But when I was, almost 20, I joined the, funeral industry. I wanted to be a helicopter pilot actually, but didn’t have enough physics, so I ended up being an undertaker, which was a bit of a shift. And I worked at that for a decade in large and small funeral homes and really enjoyed it, and my family were not in the industry at all. It shocked my parents and my sister when I told them that I wanted to be a funeral director, but that’s what my guidance counselor had actually recommended in high school. So, I enjoyed that industry, and then I actually changed, kept my funeral director’s license and actually joined the financial planning industry, and enjoyed that for quite a number of years too.
Greg Barnsdale
00:03:39 – 00:04:20
I gained the certified financial planning designation and I always knew that the experience that I had in the funeral industry and dealing with families at the time of a death, and also helping many people pre-plan ahead of time, for their funeral, would somehow I’d be able to create something that would help people. And All my financial planning clients knew that I was a funeral director as well, and I was always eager to speak to them about putting plans in place and updating their life insurance make sure they had a current invalid will and all those things so that if something happened, their family would be in far better shape than they otherwise would.
Victoria Volk
00:04:21 – 00:04:35
I wanna go back to that guidance counselor. What do you think it was that he or she saw in you that recommended or suggested that? And what was it in you that was like, oh, yeah. I think I would like that. Just curious.
Greg Barnsdale
00:04:36 – 00:05:04
I don’t know Victoria, but I suspected it was the fact that I was a rather quiet person. I still am. I’m very much an introvert as opposed to an extrovert, But I think it was that and maybe my interest in medical issues and science and those sorts of things. But in this smaller high school that I attended, I think I was only the second student in its history to join the funeral industry, actually.
Victoria Volk
00:05:05 – 00:05:24
Once you got into it, though, like, it does definitely take a special person, Right? So what do you think it is about you though, that you were so successful in that endeavor? You know, because so many people, especially at 17, 18, like, they’re lost. They don’t have a clue what they wanna do.
Victoria Volk
00:05:24 – 00:05:36
And, you know, you kinda just pluck something out of the air and hope it sticks and off majority of the time, it doesn’t. Right? Like, it’s yeah. So right. That’s a grief too.
Victoria Volk
00:05:36 – 00:05:49
Like, a loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations for your life. Like something that this other thing you wanted to do, but you fell into this and it turned out it worked for you. But
Greg Barnsdale
00:05:43 – 00:05:43
Yes,
Victoria Volk
00:05:43 – 00:05:49
What is it about you like? What makes a special undertaker?
Victoria Volk
00:05:49 – 00:05:55
I guess when people are looking for someone who they’re entrusting, really,
Greg Barnsdale
00:05:55 – 00:05:56
yes,
Victoria Volk
00:05:56 – 00:06:03
their loved one, their morning experience to, like, what are some things that you recommend that people look for?
Greg Barnsdale
00:06:04 – 00:06:42
Well, it’s a compassion for other people and what they’re going through and having empathy with those people and knowing how to help them and listen to them I don’t think I had any special unique skills going into the funeral industry but as I joined it and worked with others and learned about the industry, I actually enjoyed it, which to some people may sound a little unusual but working in that industry gives employees or workers in the death care industry a lot of personal satisfaction knowing that they’re helping people on the worst day of their life.
Victoria Volk
00:06:42 – 00:07:52
It is one of the worst days of someone’s life. Right? It is an experience that on oftentimes it’s unexpected and it’s and like we were talking before we started when we started recording, It’s overwhelming. It’s just a completely overwhelming process.
Greg Barnsdale
00:06:52 – 00:06:52
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:06:52 – 00:07:08
And to be able to sit with people in that time of need, Did you have a lot of experience with death prior to that?
Victoria Volk
00:07:08 – 00:07:20
Like, had you had what had what were the lessons and what were the beliefs and things that you had about death and experiences that you had before you went into that industry?
Greg Barnsdale
00:07:22 – 00:08:36
Well, one of the more significant, events in my life was the death of my grandfather, of a heart attack, actually, just prior to me attending college to become a funeral director But other than that, I didn’t as I said, I didn’t have any family in the funeral business I didn’t have any direct ties to the industry. But, a good friend of mine actually in high school ended up working for this small town funeral home, cleaning on a part-time basis after school. And behind the funeral home was an ambulance service which used to be quite common years ago but, anyway, I would go and visit my friend Mike occasionally at the funeral home and then I got to know some of the staff and some of the ambulance attendants and then it just seemed like an interesting atmosphere to learn more about and then I inquired about going to college that was my plan B as I said because the other occupation didn’t work out for me so I ended up going that route and I’m so glad that I did because I worked in the industry for quite a number of years and I still have my funeral directors license So it’s been almost 40 years now that I’ve been a licensed funeral director.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:09:01
What are some mistakes, learnings? I hate to say mistakes. I think everything is a learning experience. But what are some things that people need to understand about that process and maybe some tips that you can provide people when they’re going through something going through a loss and find themselves having to speak with someone like you.
Greg Barnsdale
00:09:01 – 00:10:10
Right. Well, the most top of mind thought that I have really comes back to this book that I’ve published.And the primary message of this, Victoria, is for people to try and embrace this whole aspect of the fact that ultimately we will die, and it’s important vitally important that we get thinking about this and plan for it. There are so many people and I saw this in both the funeral industry and when I worked in that industry I don’t anymore I’m promoting this book full time but when I also worked as a certified financial planner and also as a certified executor advisor as you mentioned in my bio, I’ve seen so many situations where people have been reluctant to plan, they’ve been reluctant to talk to their family members or in some cases they go I suggest they talk to their children about educating them on what they want and where their will is and the plans that we’ve been putting in place financially, etcetera. And in some cases, the children don’t wanna talk about it or they’ll say things like, oh, dad, don’t talk about that. You know?
Greg Barnsdale
00:10:11 – 00:10:34
I get it that people are uncomfortable with, so much of this, but in overcoming that uncomfortableness in the short term and talking and planning around what we want in regards to our end-of-life experience and for our legacy, etcetera, makes it so so much easier for those that we love after we’re gone.
Victoria Volk
00:10:35 – 00:11:06
Considering there’s so many different ways that people leave this their physical bodies, you know, tragic accident, cancer, you know, where you have maybe more time and maybe with, with the diagnosis, maybe you don’t even have a lot of time. Sometimes people pass
Greg Barnsdale
00:10:50 – 00:10:50
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:10:50 – 00:11:06
really quickly after a diagnosis. Is it advised that people find someone, an executor or a financial planner? Like, what are the steps that you recommend people take if there’s if they’re yes. I read your book.
Victoria Volk
00:11:06 – 00:11:12
Do not ignore your mortality. I wanna do this. I wanna get started. Where do I begin?
Greg Barnsdale
00:11:12 – 00:12:20
Well, the first initial steps should be speaking with those that you love, those that are closest to you about what you want to have happen. And within my book, I list some of the, questions that I think are good effective questions. And people tell are telling me that after reading my book, they’re inspired to get talking to their family and pull out their will and read it and really lean into this which is awesome I’m that’s really was the whole intention of this book that I want to share with as many people as I can because this is so desperately needed but that is the very first step, Victoria, is to speak with our family about do we want to be buried and if so where is where are past family members buried or do we want to be cremated or do we now people have the option of actually being recycled of all things so that you know the the funeral industry the death care industry is slow to change but it is changing and people need to know what their options are but if we don’t communicate with others about how we’re feeling in our values and what’s important to us, it did it stalls.
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:20 – 00:12:21
It doesn’t get going.
Victoria Volk
00:12:21 – 00:12:51
What do you think are the aside from not maybe the individuals themselves or the loved ones who just don’t want to talk about it? And then something happens and then, you know, there’s all this overwhelm happening within a family. And then you got dynamics. Right? Family dynamics
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:40 – 00:12:40
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:12:40 – 00:12:51
where I mean, I’ve seen it personally myself in people I know in relationships where, you know, the parents pass or the last remaining parent passes, and they didn’t have the stuff lined up.
Victoria Volk
00:12:51 – 00:13:01
And there’s so much in fighting
Greg Barnsdale
00:12:54 – 00:12:54
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:12:54 – 00:13:01
and relationships just deteriorate and blow up because of lack of planning.
Greg Barnsdale
00:13:02 – 00:14:03
Right. And ironically, Victoria, end-of-life planning are not only reduces the stress of aging but to answer to come circle back to the point the very important point that you just raised as we talk with our family about our legacy and what we want to leave behind and who gets what, etcetera, and if the cottage should be left or the the cabin should be left in the family home and who’s gonna buy it and who’s gonna use it or the family business or whatever it tends to that higher level of communication in regards to something that is truly in our heart about our legacy and who we are and what we leave behind tends to improve family dynamics and family harmony, and I get what you’re saying. I too have seen it within my own family. You know? It it’s so prevalent in families all over the place it seems but and is there such a thing as a normal family anymore?
Greg Barnsdale
00:14:03 – 00:14:20
I don’t think there necessarily is but you’re you’re exactly right At the time of a death and afterwards, especially if the affairs have not been organized thoroughly and discussed thoroughly, it can often result in a frustrating mess.
Victoria Volk
00:14:20 – 00:15:04
I wanna kinda talk a little bit about and if you wanna share any personal story around this or examples of stories that you’ve seen, be feel free to, but I just for people listening, I wanna just bring this to the topic of grief. And when you have a loved one that passes, and we’re talking about that dying that family dynamic, and you can have 4 people, 4 children that grow up in the same household that have very different relation. Every single individual in that family will have a different relationship with that parent. You don’t always know as the other siblings or other family members what that relationship was like. Your parent could have had a really close relationship with a niece or nephew that they almost considered like a child.
Victoria Volk
00:15:04 – 00:15:45
Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:15:05 – 00:15:05
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:15:05 – 00:15:45
That they include in the will, and then the children are kind of don’t get something that this other individual got, and they don’t understand it because they don’t understand that relationship. They didn’t know the dynamics of that relationship.
Greg Barnsdale
00:15:30 – 00:15:30
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:15:30 – 00:15:45
And I think that’s where so much of this infighting happens is that we’re bringing our perspective of our grief and our relationship with that person and that individual who passed and just emotionally vomiting all over each other is what we end up doing and projecting our own emotions about this loss and what this means for me and what this means for them. And, you know, they were always the favorite and they’re getting everything.
Victoria Volk
00:15:45 – 00:16:04
And it was all these whatever the perspective was about the relationship, it’s going to just completely manifest at this really old emotionally overwhelming time, which is to your point of why it’s so important for us to plan ahead. Anything you would like to add to that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:16:05 – 00:17:16
You’ve hit the nail on the head, Victoria. It’s the aspect of ignoring these sorts of things and doing nothing is very easy to do in the short term I think putting off these types of topics is is the easiest thing to do and we’re all procrastinators at heart and we can all be doing things better, I think, to a degree For those that do ignore these types of things and don’t have the conversations the chance of them dying and leaving a mess of frustration and bitterness and a lousy legacy and family in fighting is incredibly high plus the fact that more money is typically spent in regards to settling the estate could very well be that a good amount of money is spent on lawyers’ fees to sort out the bickering and the fighting and the and I was speaking to and I was on another podcast, host session last week and he ended up spending over $50,000 in legal fees to sort out his situation that’s why he wrote a book and it took over 7 years to settle the estates of his mom and dad. His brothers and sisters no longer speak to one another and he ended up having a heart attack in the process.
Greg Barnsdale
00:17:16 – 00:17:55
So you know that’s just one story of many but the overriding solution to all of this is to face our mortality and accept the fact that we’re not going to live forever. And at some point, we may become frail and unable to make decisions for ourselves. So it’s also important to have something set up like a medical directive or a power of attorney as we call them here, in Canada to have someone speak for us if we can’t make those decisions and it’s not easy to set that up either because again, we have to face the fact that we might not be able to speak at some point.
Victoria Volk
00:17:56 – 00:18:40
I’m glad you brought the conversation there because I wanted to talk a little bit and bring a little bit more of the end-of-life doula,
Greg Barnsdale
00:18:01 – 00:18:01
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:18:01 – 00:18:40
background that we both have into the conversation because my father had been diagnosed with cancer and I think 16 months or so was how long he lived. He wasn’t given that long, but he lived that long and we ended up in the nursing home. And, you know, now there’s so many much more like hospice and home health. And there’s so much more of those resources available now that there weren’t back then. But I didn’t understand one thing that shocked me when I went through my end-of-life doula training was that it is possible to have a death experience that you want, like, I did not even believe I didn’t even know that that was possible.
Victoria Volk
00:18:41 – 00:19:27
Like, you can decide what kind of music you want to be what you know, if you want music played, if you who you don’t want to come see you. I mean, and making sure that you have someone, you know, like the gatekeeper, right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:18:46 – 00:18:46
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:18:46 – 00:19:27
You have a gatekeeper that, you know, make sure that your death experience is what you want it to be. And once you pass, do you want to be washed and all of these things that I hadn’t even considered that it just really opened my mind to, do you have any personal experience with because I personally have not utilized that end of life doula in my area, just because I it’s a very rural area. And I’m still trying to determine what that service or what that offering would look like for me personally, in my area.
Victoria Volk
00:19:27 – 00:19:32
But do you have any personal experience that you would like to share or talk about in that regard?
Greg Barnsdale
00:19:33 – 00:19:59
I’m glad you brought that up, Victoria, because this too is critically important. And you’re exactly right. I think the vast majority of the population is not aware of these sorts of things. And that’s why these specialized types of podcasts like yours, that is so vitally important for people to tune into if they’re interested in this. It’s funny how I just said if they’re interested in this but if their hearts beating they should be interested in this right?
Victoria Volk
00:19:59 – 00:19:59
Right.
Greg Barnsdale
00:19:59 – 00:21:15
But when I last year maybe it was 2 years ago now when I completed my hospice training as a hospice volunteer, one of the things that they had asked us as part of the exercise and the training was to, write down how we wanted to die. And in all my training as a funeral director, I never had to do that. I had to fill out my own death certificate and those sorts of things and write lots of practice obituaries in my initial training and so on, which was helpful for that role. But I had never been asked before how I wanted to die, and it seemed like such a bizarre question and some of the people in the room were saying well I want to be on the golf course or I want to be doing this or I want to be doing that and it’s something that I think we should all consider at some point because you’re exactly right we do have those choices now and we in Ontario Canada where I am, I’m seeing and hearing of more and more hospices being set up all the time and when I wrote this, created the research the manuscript for this book that I published last year I realized that there is such a massive demand for people needing to volunteer for hospice.
Greg Barnsdale
00:21:16 – 00:21:29
There’s all kinds of facilities and services all are more and more all the time, but there is such a demand for people who unfortunately are dying, who are being admitted, and and they just need someone to come and speak with them.
Victoria Volk
00:21:29 – 00:21:57
That might just be the prompt I needed. Thank you for that. It’s not just about like how you want to die or what that process is that you want it to look like. But like you said, it’s very important that you have someone that you trust in, in that will have your best interest and will be steadfast in and committed to following through with what your wishes are. If you cannot speak, if you get to where you cannot speak.
Greg Barnsdale
00:21:57 – 00:21:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:21:58 – 00:22:25
And that’s a really difficult position to be in, and it’s not for everybody. And then, you know, but if you, as the person who’s, you know, preparing that transition has chosen that person, other family cannot argue that, right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:20 – 00:22:20
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:22:20 – 00:22:21
Like other family,
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:21- 00:22:21
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:22:22 – 00:22:25
they, you know, that’s and how much distress and grief and in fighting will you eliminate by just simply choosing that person yourself?
Greg Barnsdale
00:22:25 – 00:23:26
And that fiduciary, as they’re called in that role to speak on your behalf, may not necessarily agree with your wishes of what you want if you’re, incapacitated and can’t speak but he or she has to speak up for you at that time which again is vitally important but as an example if I have in my power of attorney that I don’t wanna be put on life support and I would rather just die well my wife would have to speak up for me even if she didn’t necessarily agree with that and I had a conversation recently with my elderly father he’s almost 90. My mom died 4 years suddenly, and actually flatlined in front of me in the hospital which is another story but, my surviving father has recently decided that he wants to establish a do not resuscitate order so if something significant happens to him, he would rather just die. And that’s, again, a tough conversation to have, but we’ve had the conversation between he and I and my sister.
Victoria Volk
00:23:26 – 00:23:55
And let’s talk about your mom because I imagine that was very traumatic at the time and you didn’t have time. Right? You didn’t have the time to say all the things you wanted to say. And, you know, like what in the work that I do become emotionally complete, you know, as you maybe would have if someone was terminal and maybe you had a little bit more time in that process, but to have those deep and important conversations. So what would you like to share about that experience and what you glean from it after that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:23:55 – 00:24:28
Well, I guess the biggest thing, Victoria, is the fact that life can change on a dime. You know, my 82-year-old mother was rather active. She was an organist in a church and she had she was the organist at the local funeral home that I had worked at in this small town and she helped work for that funeral home for decades as the organist and she was out Christmas shopping with her girlfriend and after lunch she actually slipped and broke her hip ended up in the hospital broke her wrist as well and her mom died this way ironically in
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Hmm
Greg Barnsdale
00:24:28 – 00:25:24
very similar fashion years ago but, we said to her mom you’ll be fine you know we’ll get you some physio they’ll be you know fix your wrist and it’ll take some rehab and such but you’ll be at home again with that in no time and then I was visiting her the next day she flatlined and here I was sitting there studying for my next estate planning exam and, and she flatlined all these nurses and doctors came in they started aggressively doing CPR and then they put her on life support and she died the next day so and it all seemed like a bad dream and just because I’m a funeral director doesn’t mean that I’m immune to the same types of feelings and turmoil etcetera. It was painful, incredibly painful, But I was so grateful that she had taken the time years ago and we had she and I had numerous conversations about what she wanted, primarily, I think, because I was a funeral director.
Victoria Volk
00:25:24 – 00:25:30
The burden that took off your father as well at the time, because here he how long had they been married?
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:30 – 00:25:32
Decades. They were married in 1960.
Victoria Volk
00:25:32 – 00:25:35
You know, so he lost his lifelong love.
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:35 – 00:25:35
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:25:36 – 00:25:46
In an instant. And imagine that’s like losing a limb, you know, you feel like you’ve lost a limb and a part of yourself and the overwhelm that that brings. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:25:46 – 00:25:55
So I’m sure that your presence and what your education and knowledge was a gift to them. And in that time too.
Greg Barnsdale
00:25:56 – 00:26:44
Yeah, well I think it certainly made it easier to a degree but it still seemed like a bad dream and so many people would had commented at the time of the funeral about how it was just so hard to believe that she was gone. And I’ve heard families say this so many times when I worked in the funeral business, that you know here we were sitting down in a funeral home arrangement office discussing you know all the details about the upcoming funeral in the next few days and when the body is going to be released from the hospital after the autopsy and all those sorts of difficult conversations that I had to have with families as a funeral director and quite often they would say things to me like I certainly never expected this to be part of my day today
Victoria Volk
00:26:46 – 00:27:02
My mom is gonna be 81. She still works. She still can get around and, you know, doesn’t need a walker or a cane or anything like that. And I feel like I would probably be thinking the same thing to myself. It’s she was out shopping, right?
Victoria Volk
00:27:02 – 00:27:09
Your mom’s out shopping. I mean, I could totally see that with my mom. And one of my mom’s greatest fears is falling on ice.
Greg Barnsdale
00:27:09 – 00:27:09
Yes,
Victoria Volk
00:27:09 – 00:27:36
And breaking a bone and breaking her hip and she will not go to work. She will stay home if it is really icy. Or if there’s been a lot of, you know, weather the day before a couple days, which is like she that is one of her greatest fears. And rightfully so because just like you illustrated, it’s like you think that they’re gonna recover and, you know, they’re gonna walk out of the hospital. And like you said, just need some physical therapy.
Victoria Volk
00:27:36 – 00:27:47
And, you know, a lot of people break bones and it doesn’t end their lives, you know? So I imagine that, yeah, it was a shock.
Greg Barnsdale
00:27:47 – 00:27:53
Yeah. For elderly people, for them to suffer a broken hip can often mean their demise, unfortunately.
Victoria Volk
00:27:54 – 00:28:11
The healing process right. Is not as quick and it’s, you know, you can, you’re more apt probably to blood clots and things like that. That,
Greg Barnsdale
00:28:12 – 00:28:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:28:12 – 00:28:21
Yeah, but this isn’t the only thing that happened to you that kind of just flipped your world upside down in an instant. I mean you’ve had other things too and one of those was I think I mentioned that in your bio a little bit was your tumor.
Greg Barnsdale
00:28:21 – 00:30:09
Yes, as I jokingly say to my wife who has asked me for years, Greg do you want to get a tattoo, And I’ve always said no now I can say I have a tattoo I’ve got a 6-inch scar up the side of my head from having this non-cancerous tumor removed that too was a shock and as you said in the bio Victoria I have worked in and around death much of my 40-year career in various roles including a supervisor for one of the largest mortuaries in all of Canada actually so I’ve seen a lot but after taking years literally many many years to publish this, finally publishing this book with a message to help inspire people to plan ahead accordingly for their situation because everybody’s situation is so different 2 months after I published the book with a professional publishing firm I get diagnosed with a brain tumor which seems so incredibly ironic. Her key thing about this was my general physician who told me about this didn’t tell me if it was cancerous or not and I assumed it was cancerous but he said I’m waiting to hear back from an ear nose and throat specialist he should be calling me back here today and they want to set up an appointment with you as soon as possible because he showed me on the MRI in his computer it’s a large tumor and this all started from a ringing in my one ear so if you know of anyone or any of the listeners have tinnitus or tinnitus I think it’s called in one ear that’s the kicker it could be a brain tumor quite often people have tinnitus in both ears and that’s not indicative of a tumor but MRIs are more prevalent so they’re noticing these more and more all the time mine was an acoustic meaning hearing neuroma and as I said it was large they removed most of it almost a year ago.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:10 – 00:30:23
And the recovery has been really good. I’ve been very happy with it. I’ve lost all the hearing in my left ear, which was a known, risk going into this and quite likely. But I’m I’m willing to put up with that. But they removed most of the tumor.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:23 – 00:30:30
There’s still about 20%, that they couldn’t remove because it’s tightly wrapped around a number of facial nerves and my brain stem.
Victoria Volk
00:30:31 – 00:30:33
Yeah. I actually have ringing in my right ear.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:33 – 00:30:35
You should get it checked.
Victoria Volk
00:30:35 – 00:30:40
But I was in the military too. So I’ve always just chalked it up to that. Thank you for that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:41 – 00:30:44
You’re well. I hope I hope I hope it’s all clean and you’re good to go.
Victoria Volk
00:30:45 – 00:30:56
Thank you for saying that. But brings up the question then, how has that changed your perspective on your health? How has this experience changed that perspective of your health?
Greg Barnsdale
00:30:56 – 00:30:57
I’m kidding.
Victoria Volk
00:30:57 – 00:30:59
Yeah. You’re being funny. I got it.
Greg Barnsdale
00:31:01 – 00:32:04
Well, actually, it’s inspired me to look after myself even more. I truly do think, Victoria, that there’s a higher power at work in my life that has given me a second chance because as I said, this tumor was non-cancerous. Then the recent MRI that I had is seems to be indicating and I’m still waiting to hear from the neurosurgeon actually but in the copy that I have from my interpretation of it as a lay person it seems that the tumor is not growing so I’m doing everything I can to look after myself and my wife is after me to a hearing aid but I think I’m getting along pretty well without it and I don’t want to put up with the hassles of a hearing aid at this point anyway but it’s truly given me I guess a greater appreciation of end of life issues because when I got home from that visit with the doctor my general physician, and he said, you’ve got a large tumor. The specialist is going to be calling you. I didn’t get you I was home 20 minutes later, in my vehicle and walking into the house and my cell phone went off and it was the secretary for the specialist office saying Greg, can you come in Monday morning at 9 o’clock?
Greg Barnsdale
00:32:04 – 00:32:22
We wanna see you. So I thought for sure I was doomed and it was cancerous my wife was working from home that day so I didn’t want to ruin her day with this terrible news that I had. So I didn’t tell her all day. And then I didn’t wanna ruin her dinner Thursday night. And then I didn’t wanna ruin her sleep Thursday night.
Greg Barnsdale
00:32:22 – 00:32:47
And then I didn’t wanna ruin her Friday. So I ended up telling her Saturday morning as Celine Dion’s My Heart Will Go On is playing in the background as we’re having our coffee and tears are coming down my eyes, and she said what’s wrong? So I had to tell her. So I did I had to face my own death after decades of telling all kinds of other people get act together and face this thing.
Victoria Volk
00:32:47 – 00:33:15
My husband loves Celine Deon. But that I mean, I was just I was kinda in the moment as you were saying it, and it’s like, anyone listening, just see yourself in this scenario. Like, just see yourself in this scenario and what would you do and what do you need to do to get your act together? Do not ignore your mortality as the title of your book states, and it’s a great title. It’s very direct, and it’s poignant. And, again, I haven’t gotten my act together.
Victoria Volk
00:33:15 – 00:33:28
I actually have a folder that includes this is really sad. So I actually I don’t even know where I got it. I think from the Veterans Administration, my husband and I are both veterans. And I think at one time, they were given these to the veterans. I’m not even sure.
Victoria Volk
00:33:28 – 00:33:37
Maybe we ordered it. I can’t even tell you. But it’s a folder that has all the documents that you would need to prepare,
Greg Barnsdale
00:33:38 – 00:33:38
Right
Victoria Volk
00:33:38 – 00:33:47
you know in advance. Actually, I do think we probably ordered it. But have we gone through them? No. Because I think we’ve actually probably had them at least 10 years.
Greg Barnsdale
00:33:48 – 00:33:48
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:33:48 – 00:34:00
At least. And, you know, now it’s like, okay, well, we’re kind of pushing 50. Probably, you know, but you think you always have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:00 – 00:34:01
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:34:01 – 00:34:03
I think you always have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:04 – 00:34:56
I said that phrase a number of times to people, and we got a chuckle out of it as my craniotomy, my brain surgery was approaching and I was you know trying to get making sure all of my beneficiary designations were up to date on my insurance policies and pre-arranging for my cremation to take place with a buddy of mine who runs a crematorium and all those things to make it easier for my family and I jokingly said to a few people as my surgery was getting closer and closer, you know, hoping that I would survive it. Most people do survive these craniotomies these days, but it’s still rather, concerning when you’re the one going under the knife. Right? So I wanted to make sure that my affairs were truly in order, and I was so happy that I had them all in place. You know, I had to tweak things a little bit, but I would jokingly say to people, I thought I had more time.
Victoria Volk
00:34:56 – 00:34:56
Mhmm.
Greg Barnsdale
00:34:56 – 00:35:10
And it it’s so very true. We all think that. Right? We think, as I say in the book, we’re so many people just are wanting to avoid this, and they just make the assumption everything will be fine.
Greg Barnsdale
00:35:10 – 00:35:19
I’m gonna be here tomorrow. I don’t need a will anytime soon. I don’t need the life insurance anytime soon. I’m gonna be fine. It’s we need to do this now.
Victoria Volk
00:35:20 – 00:36:13
I’ve always wondered why you know, when it comes to your health, it’s like, why does it always take like a heart attack or you know, this health scare or something to like, wake people up to actually give a damn about their bodies and the one, you know, meat suit that they’re given in this life. And then, but also to, I can say that with this, it’s like, you know, you always think you have more time. What does it take for us to get our act together and put these affairs in order and make sure that we’re making it as easy as possible for those who are left behind, regardless if we’re 40 or 70, or 80, or 90. And, you know, and people, you know, if you live that long, then people say, Oh, you they lived such a long life, or they had a long life, or they had a good life. And I imagine people said that probably you heard stuff like that with your mom.
Victoria Volk
00:36:13 – 00:36:24
And it’s like, no, she probably had another good she could have lived another 10 years. You know, who knows? Yeah, I’m sure your mom thought it too. She always you know, you think you have more time.
Greg Barnsdale
00:36:24 – 00:36:24
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:36:24 – 00:36:44
And that’s just not. I mean, if the world has not proven to us enough through COVID, and just life itself and people that we know and the majillion bajillion scenarios that can happen. What’s it gonna take for us to wake up?
Greg Barnsdale
00:36:44 – 00:38:02
Well, you’re exactly right. The last 3 years with with COVID especially has really changed the world to a large degree and a large number of people actually decided to get their affairs in order through COVID because they saw how, how delicate life is and I think had a greater appreciation for it because it was so top of mind, especially during the height of the pandemic and who could have ever predicted that But when you come through the experiences that I have working directly with the dead picking up the dead arranging for the dead and also in the role of a financial advisor as a life insurance specialist inspiring people to set up the insurance that they need to make sure that their families will be properly taken care of based on their goals and objectives and all these sorts of things that’s really why I wrote this book to be honest with you. It’s a very brief conversation starter to get people thinking about communicating and the basics of funeral and cremation and burial planning and very basic information about estate planning and then the last chapter has to do with the medical directives and all of us are at risk of being incapacitated at some point. So it’s really just it doesn’t get into a lot of detail.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:03 – 00:38:17
It’s really just targeted towards getting Canadians and Americans thinking about these the very fundamentals of getting moving with this and leaning on other people who can help, and there’s lots of them out there.
Victoria Volk
00:38:17 – 00:38:42
What is one piece of advice that through the passing of your mother and that experience and then your own health scare, like, what is one piece of advice? Because I’m sure there was obviously some grieving, obviously, with your mother, and maybe even to with, you know, your own health scare. Is, was there any grief that came up for you during that time? I mean, even after you knew it was not cancerous.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:42 – 00:38:53
Well, for my mom, certainly. But in regards to my situation, Victoria, I guess there was. I I don’t know. It’s hard to say. It said I’ve been in and around death for so many years.
Greg Barnsdale
00:38:53 – 00:40:02
It was a wake up call for me, but as I said, it was a huge relief knowing that I had my affairs in order and as I stress in the book a lot the people who are forced to get planning these sorts of things when there is a health diagnosis which is not overly rosy like cancer as an example I’ve seen so many people try to organize what I call and many other people call it the same thing deathbed estate planning it’s rushed it’s inappropriate it’s extremely delicate well maybe inappropriate I should take that back but when someone is in a hospital bed and they’re and they’re not doing so well, we’re always, you know, bringing flowers and writing uplifting cards to get well soon and all those sorts of positive messages. The last thing that people typically want to talk about is you know , mom did you have where’s your will? Or dad did you want to be buried or cremated? You know, we don’t have those types of conversations with people when they’re in a hospital bed or to ask them if they wanna steal or a wooden casket.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:03 – 00:40:15
That’s taboo. Right? People don’t do that. And I totally understand why they don’t want to. But that’s why it’s so vitally important that these conversations take place when times are normal.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:15 – 00:40:18
Time is plentiful and minds are clear.
Victoria Volk
00:40:19 – 00:40:30
Thank you so much for bringing that up. That is actually a huge takeaway that I had from the end-of-life training that I had is that instead of having those conversations, even if you know, you have to have them.
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:30 – 00:40:30
yeah
Victoria Volk
00:40:30 – 00:40:51
And so instead of talking about fond memories, or having deeper conversations with your loved one, about things that you want them to know, or that you feel in your heart you need to share. Instead, you’re having to ask what color casket do you want? Where is your will?
Victoria Volk
00:40:51 – 00:40:54
You’re taking up that time for logistics?
Greg Barnsdale
00:40:55 – 00:40:56
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:40:56 – 00:41:00
And things that, like you said, could have should have,
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:01 – 00:41:01
yeah
Victoria Volk
00:41:01 – 00:41:23
You know, and you get into that could have could have would have situation after the fact. And that’s the tragedy, I think, to have what you call deathbed estate planning
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:18 – 00:41:18
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:41:18 – 00:41:23
is that time is spent not having the most loving, fruitful, meaningful conversations and honest conversations.
Greg Barnsdale
00:41:23 – 00:42:13
Yes, yeah. Yeah, that’s very true. And I think the best times, Victoria, to have these types of meaningful deeper conversations is when families are together you know I often think of Thanksgiving and how we it’s quite I think prevalent with a lot of people to get together at Thanksgiving and think talk to each other and so on about what they’re thankful for in their life well it wouldn’t that be a great time to maybe bring up the whole aspect of our legacy and our life and what we’re thankful for to have but what we’re thankful to leave as well and to set up our loved ones for success instead of bickering and fighting and all the turmoil that can take place if we don’t bring these these things up.
Victoria Volk
00:42:14 – 00:42:34
And that’s a great point too. It’s why not have those deeper conversations when we’re all coherent, when we’re all healthy, when we’re all together and make the most of that time. It’s it is not just about planning for your death. It’s living more intentional
Greg Barnsdale
00:42:33 – 00:42:33
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:42:33 – 00:42:34
in your life.
Greg Barnsdale
00:42:35 – 00:42:58
Yep. And that’s another part that I had realized as I was creating the manuscript, was that psychologists and various different articles within that community are so more frequently saying now than embracing our mortality, actually helps us live a more meaningful life and be in the in the present moment, and I think that is very true.
Victoria Volk
00:42:59 – 00:43:12
What has all of this taught you? All of your life experience, your grief, the industries in which you’ve worked. What has your grief in these areas taught you?
Greg Barnsdale
00:43:13 – 00:43:56
Appreciate every day you have. It can change quickly and I’m sure you know I’ve met a lot of people who have and this is kind of funny to say and I joke about it in my book I’ve met a lot of people who have died who I’m sure didn’t expect to die in that day, who probably who very who I’m sure thought that they had so much more time ahead of them, yet here they are at a funeral home or a mortuary, and now the family’s, having to deal with their death, and they, you know the deceased has no input in this. The time to have the input is when you can and that’s why I’m using the slogan now, plan while you can. And I think that that’s an appropriate phrase too.
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:16
Well, and for as individual, like, what have your say, I think that’s an important
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:16 – 00:44:16
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:43:16 – 00:44:19
perspective to share with people is do you wanna have a say?
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:19 – 00:44:19
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:44:19 – 00:44:24
And what happens with you when you’re if you’re hospitalized or after you die or in the process of dying and you can’t speak? And do you wanna have a say? I think a 100% of people would say a resounding yes.
Victoria Volk
00:44:25 – 00:44:26
And yet we don’t take
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:27 – 00:44:27
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:28 – 00:44:30
We take 0 action. We take 0 action on that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:30 – 00:44:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:44:30 – 00:44:37
Yaeh. I think that’s the mind-blowing message here for people.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:37 – 00:44:39
It is. Yes. Yep. Yep. I agree.
Greg Barnsdale
00:44:39 – 00:45:52
And you know what, Victoria? Over the last year and a half, roughly, I’ve been reaching out to a lot of people on LinkedIn who have similar who I’m assuming have similar interests from emergency room nurses to, lawyers to doctors, other financial planners and other funeral directors and even members of the faith community too about this message that I’m promoting. And I’ve told them, you know, ever since I published this book and I’ve been talking about and trying to create something that would really inspire a lot of people, and it took me a long time to really get to the point where I realized that writing a book would be a good way to do it. But the the support that I’m getting on this is actually quite strong, and it’s inspired me to start a movement, and I’m calling it the mortality mindset movement and maybe I’ve looked online I haven’t seen anybody else promoting quite this way but I’m hoping that more people get behind it but I’m referring to the mortality mindset movement where followers uphold their living legacy by becoming the best version of themselves and ultimately leave their last legacy as the best possible, And I think you had referenced that in my bio.
Victoria Volk
00:45:54 – 00:46:09
No. And I love that. And I have one I thought of another question. And so people listening to this, they might think, oh, well, it’s gonna take a lot to you know, I gotta hire this person to help me do all this. And, yes, I wanna do this, but where do, you know, where do I start?
Victoria Volk
00:46:09 – 00:46:19
And I know you mentioned in the book, it’s kind of like just kind of like an overview of all these different topics.
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:19 – 00:46:19
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:46:19 – 00:46:24
But for someone listening, like, can is this, like, a DIY thing? Like, can I, cause you know, I got this folder, and I got all these documents? Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:24 – 00:46:24
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:46:24 – 00:46:26
And I just need to sit down and do it, and I just haven’t done it.
Victoria Volk
00:46:27 – 00:46:48
Is it something that can be a DIY thing and then you just need it notarized or you need it just something like that? Or do you do you have to, in air quotes, have to? Or is it recommended that you go with an expert, estate planning, financial planner, like all these different pieces? What do you have to share about that?
Greg Barnsdale
00:46:48 – 00:48:10
You can see me shaking my head here. Yes, you can. It can be a DIY project, Victoria for people that have a straightforward situation. Again, something that I try to clearly explain within my book to help educate people about when they should go beyond that and perhaps speak to an Estate Planning Lawyer and perhaps a financial adviser and or an accountant. But I when I wrote the book, I wanted to keep it as straightforward as possible because it’s a tough subject in itself to even talk about so everybody’s situation is different but if someone is has a fairly straight forward type of lifestyle where they do not, they’re not paying child support they’re not paying spousal support they don’t have any business ownership issues they don’t own property in another jurisdiction another state or another country so their situation is fairly straightforward it can very much it can be a DIY project but it comes down to communicating with your family and researching somebody these things online to get to know how things can be set up properly but for those situations where somebody has ownership in a business they’re paying child support and they own a cabin or a cottage in another state or province or country or whatever, they should be seeing a lawyer.
Greg Barnsdale
00:48:11 – 00:48:24
And I know a lot of people are literally to engage a lawyer because of the perceived cost, But avoiding that can actually result in a higher cost after the death than if the person had have engaged lawyer in the first place.
Victoria Volk
00:48:25 – 00:49:00
As you explained and illustrated in that one story you shared where it cost him $50,000 you know, in 7 years of his life. And I imagined in that 7 years, it was a lot of stress and lost time at work and lost productivity and his life lost vacations or whatever. What is the, you know, it’s not just the financial cost, it’s the emotional cost of, you know, your physical self cost and everything else that probably went into that too. So thank you for making that distinction. And sharing that.
Victoria Volk
00:49:00 – 00:49:05
Is there anything else that you would like to share that you think is important that you didn’t get to share?
Greg Barnsdale
00:49:06 – 00:49:41
Boy, it’s, I think we’ve covered pretty well the bulk of what I’d like to say here, Victoria. But other than stressing the fact that anybody listening to this should really try to lean into this. I know it’s not easy, but you can also leverage opportunities when someone else, a friend or a family member happens to be sick or if someone’s been hospitalized or someone that , you know, they bring it up that someone, a friend or something has passed away. That’s a good time to bring up your situation and say well, you know, did you know that I have a will? Or do you know where I keep my will?
Greg Barnsdale
00:49:41 – 00:49:51
You know, if something happened to me, and then just get talking about these things with those that you love and care about so that they’re aware of what you’re thinking.
Victoria Volk
00:49:51 – 00:50:27
Every time someone who my family knows passes away, I asks a specific person where her and her husband would want to be buried if they have talked about that, if they had planned that yet, because, you know, religious affiliations change over time. People, you know, may not go to the same church or they might and this is kind of the situation. And then family is actually buried, you know, out of state and they’re somewhere else. And, you know, they might be out of state or somewhere else. And so every time this happens, I ask, have you talked about this?
Victoria Volk
00:50:27 – 00:50:39
Do you know what you’d want to do? Because I know, especially, you know, like their kids would be just overwhelmed with that whole thing. I just I know they would. And every time the answer is no. Don’t know.
Victoria Volk
00:50:39 – 00:50:46
Not sure. And, you know, so it’s like one of those things where it’s like arrggh, but then at the same time
Greg Barnsdale
00:50:46 – 00:50:47
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:50:47 – 00:51:04
I haven’t gotten my crap together either. So it’s like calling the kettle black, So I don’t push it too too hard. But, again, it’s just one of those things. Like, I like you said, that’s a great opportunity to bring it up and maybe just share what you would want. Maybe share what, you know, what you want to happen with you.
Victoria Volk
00:51:04 – 00:51:35
And, you know, for me personally, like, give my organs away. Like, I don’t need them. Like, what good are they to me? And I would rather them, you know, that’s the legacy that I would love to be able to give is life to somebody else like, wow, like, how many people you know, that’s an opportunity that I see it as an opportunity. And, you know, someone in my life is like, adamant that that’s, that’s no, but, you know, I made sure my husband, and it’s on my license, I’m a donor.
Victoria Volk
00:51:36 – 00:51:53
So, you know, it’s just that’s a small action people can take too. It’s you know, if you wanna donate your organs, put that on your driver’s license. You’re stating that that’s your wishes. And, I mean, that’s at least one small piece you can do right now, today. Change it on your driver’s license.
Greg Barnsdale
00:51:53 – 00:51:53
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:51:53 – 00:51:54
That’s what you want.
Greg Barnsdale
00:51:54 – 00:53:07
And I think a lot of people, Victoria, don’t realize how needed organ donation really is and tissue and organs can actually be donated regardless of one’s age but the other point that I wanted to bring up that you had mentioned a few minutes ago was the fact about funerals and people being buried out of state. Here in Canada we’ve seen this trend for a number of years and I’m quite sure it’s also a prevalent trend in the US as well. Is that a growing number of people don’t see the value in a traditional funeral anymore and they’re opting for other types of ceremonies to take place which are much more casual perhaps in a legion or at a hall or something instead of a traditional 2 days of visitation in a church or a funeral home and then a funeral procession to a cemetery that just isn’t happening as much anymore we seldom see a funeral hearse on the road anymore here in Canada and I’m sure it’s the case there where you are too but if people don’t want to have a funeral it’s important that your family knows that.
Greg Barnsdale
00:53:08 – 00:53:30
If you want to be cremated or if you want to have your organs donated or any of those sorts of things unless those conversations are meaningfully had it’s going to cause stress at the time of the death and it’s so easy to resolve that just by being I guess, a little more courageous and having the conversations while the opportunity exists.
Victoria Volk
00:53:30 – 00:53:39
What are the topics that generally people avoid like the plague? Politics, religion, death. Right?
Greg Barnsdale
00:53:39 – 00:53:39
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:39 – 00:54:07
And so you’re not telling people if you don’t want a funeral. You’re probably not telling people, oh, I’m not this religion anymore. I’m not this faith, or I’ve completely gone away from going to church. And this I’m choosing this other path, which is happening a lot more to a lot more people are leaving the church itself, regardless of what religious affiliation it is. And so that does change how you want to probably be buried and what kind of ceremony you’re wanting to have.
Victoria Volk
00:54:07 – 00:54:10
And again, you wanna have your say.
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:11 – 00:54:11
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:54:11 – 00:54:22
You can’t have it after you’re dead, so you might wanna have those conversations as soon as possible because as we’ve talked about on this podcast, you don’t know how much time you have.
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:22 – 00:54:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:54
You think you have more time, but that’s not necessarily the case. And now that we’ve depressed everybody with that sobering thought, which I hope just prompts people to action. That’s really what this you know, why I wanted to have you on is to share your story and also to, you know, maybe light a fire under all of our butts to get our act together. And so thank you so much for sharing, your wisdom and your knowledge with us today. And where can people find your book?
Greg Barnsdale
00:54:55 – 00:55:16
The easiest place to find my book is through my website donotignoreyourmortality.com and on all the pages are reminders as to where people can buy it. But it’s available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It’s available in physical paperback form, audiobook and ebook and in all the major retailers.
Victoria Volk
00:55:18 – 00:55:25
Amazing. And thank you again for being here. Is there anything else you would like to share? Where can people where are you on social? Are you on social media at all?
Greg Barnsdale
00:55:25 – 00:56:37
Yes. Yes. I am that actually this was another quick interesting point that I’ll briefly mention to you 2 days before my brain surgery my stepdaughter says to me Greg we should take that video that you recorded just after you told mom you had a brain tumor the Celine Dion moment I went out to the truck we were gonna go to the mall to pick up whatever to kind of clear our minds after I told her I had a brain tumor and both of us assumed it was terminal because it was Monday morning, remember, that she was going to come with me to see this ear nose and throat specialist where he said don’t worry about it, Greg, it’s likely an acoustic neuroma and it’s non-cancerous. So that relieved us immensely. But on that Saturday morning about, I don’t know, half an hour or an hour after I told her I thought sitting in the truck waiting for her to come out I would do a little recording on my iPhone not knowing if I would ever share it so I just explained I just told my wife that I had a brain tumor and if it’s cancerous I’ve got some very serious decisions to make and that’s really all I said it was very brief so that’s what my stepdaughter wanted to put on TikTok and we did and it blew up It’s now been viewed over 1,700,000 times.
Victoria Volk
00:56:37 – 00:57:00
Wow. I don’t have TikTok, but my daughter does, and she’s always showing me different things on there. But, yeah, I mean and that’s a great way to get your this message out. I mean, if people are listening to that, I imagine they’re wanna follow-up and hear how your story played out. And did that give you some traction in sharing this message?
Greg Barnsdale
00:57:00 – 00:57:38
Well, it did. It didn’t result in a lot of, book sales, but it resulted in a lot of a fair amount of attention. And I’ve added some other videos that that a whole supplement, this whole message of mine and I’m on all the other major platforms as well but on TikTok my handle or name is author mortality and anybody will see Greg Barnsdale on there in the various videos but yes I’m on LinkedIn I’m on YouTube and Facebook etcetera and if so if anybody does a search for do not ignore your mortality and my name Greg Barnsdale that they’ll see me.
Victoria Volk
00:57:39 – 00:57:42
And I will put the links in the show notes for people to get to connect with you as well.
Greg Barnsdale
00:57:42 – 00:57:42
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:57:42 – 00:58:08
And thank you so much for your time today and sharing. I enjoyed this conversation and I, the one action I will do today, I will do this today, I will take out my folder with all of my documents, which is in the safe, and I will take it out as a reminder to myself to get crack a lacking.
Greg Barnsdale
00:58:09 – 00:58:10
Good. Good for you.
Victoria Volk
00:58:10 – 00:58:13
Thank you for lighting the fire under my butt today.
Greg Barnsdale
00:58:14 – 00:58:16
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Victoria Volk
00:58:16 – 00:58:21
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Emotions, Grief, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
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Navigating Friendships in Times of Grief: Understanding, Communication, and Self-Care
When we face the stormy seas of grief, our friends often serve as anchors—keeping us grounded amidst the tumultuous waves of sorrow. However, it can be disheartening when those we count on seem to drift away just when we need them most. Today at Grieving Voices, let’s explore this delicate dynamic and offer some guidance on how to navigate friendships during times of loss.
The Unpredictable Nature of Support
Grief is a profoundly personal experience that reshapes our world in ways others may not fully comprehend. As much as we hope for unwavering support from friends, their reactions can vary widely. Some may envelop us with empathy and understanding while others might unexpectedly become distant or even disappear.
It’s essential to recognize that each person has unique emotional capacities and life experiences that influence their ability to provide support during such times. For some friends, your grief may evoke unresolved feelings about their own losses; they might fear saying something hurtful or simply feel unequipped to handle the depth of your pain.
Communication: The Bridge Over Troubled Waters
Open communication can be a bridge reconnecting you with friends who seem distant. If you’re up for it, initiate an honest conversation about what you’re going through and express what kind of support would help—whether it’s a listening ear or someone to share memories with.
Conversely, give space for your friends to communicate too—they may have valid reasons for stepping back that are unrelated to your relationship or situation. By fostering dialogue, both parties can gain clarity and find common ground even amidst discomfort.
Managing Expectations: The Compass Guiding Your Emotional Journey
While reaching out is important, managing expectations is equally crucial in maintaining inner peace during these trying times. Not every friend will respond as hoped—and that’s okay—it doesn’t diminish the value they’ve added to your life nor does it lessen your worthiness for support.
Consider expanding your circle by seeking additional forms of assistance like therapy or joining a grief support group where shared experiences foster connection and understanding amongst peers navigating similar paths.
The Evolutionary Dance of Friendship Through Grief
Friendships ebb and flow like tides influenced by life’s changing circumstances—including periods marked by loss. It’s natural for relationships to evolve; some bonds strengthen while others fade into memory’s backdrop—a bittersweet part of life’s journey.
In this dance with change comes an opportunity for self-discovery—you learn more about who shows up when storms hit shorelines unannounced; likewise discovering new depths within yourself capable of weathering solitude if needed before finding community anew.
Handle these shifts with grace—for yourself and those around you—by practicing empathy towards everyone involved including oneself. Remember self-care isn’t selfish—it ensures you’re emotionally available not only for others but vitally so—for yourself first.
As today’s exploration concludes remember—the absence felt from lost connections makes room for growth both within one’s heart-space & social circles alike leading potentially towards deeper more resonant ties ahead.
If today’s insights resonate please consider sharing them across platforms where fellow travelers journey through grief could benefit from solidarity found within shared words spoken here today—or leave thoughts behind via reviews aiding further conversations yet untold across grieving voices everywhere.
Should questions stir within soul-sands untouched reach out directly allowing continued dialogues underpinning future episodes crafted here among collective wisdom gathered together beneath healing skies above all else take care nurture tenderly knowing full well—in releasing heartfelt truths freedom follows suit unlocking boundless possibilities lying dormant awaiting breaths freshened anew much love until next time dear listeners goodbye.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:03 – 00:00:16
Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning in to Grieving Voices. I am your host, Victoria V. And today, we’ll explore a question that many of us may grapple with during times of grief and loss.
Victoria Volk
00:00:17 – 00:01:06
The question we’ll be digging into today is, I am grieving the devastating loss of my sister, among other things, and I feel like some of my friends are becoming distant. Why aren’t they supporting me? So we’re just gonna dive right into the answer for today’s episode, which is about feeling ghosted in your grief, and why some friends might become distant and why they don’t support you. When we experience loss and grief, it can be incredibly challenging to navigate our relationships, particularly with friends. It’s not uncommon to feel a sense of disappointment or confusion when we perceive that our friends are becoming distant or not providing the support that we had hoped for.
Victoria Volk
00:01:06 – 00:01:47
It’s important to remember that everyone processes grief differently. While some friends may naturally step up and offer support, others may struggle to know how to navigate this unfamiliar territory. And remember, a large part of why I created this podcast is to educate because most of us are raised with myths and misinformation about grief. And to learn more about what I mean, I encourage you to check out the first ten episodes of this podcast where I share all about the misinformation about grief we grow up with and bring into adulthood. And with this in mind, it’s helpful to approach these situations with empathy and understanding.
Victoria Volk
00:01:48 – 00:02:33
One possible reason for your friend’s distance could be their own comfort with grief. Society often struggles to openly discuss and address the topic of loss, which can lead to friends feeling ill-equipped or unsure of how to provide support. It’s also possible that they may be avoiding the topic out of fear of saying the wrong thing or making things worse. It could also be bringing up some of their own grief long buried that they may not have given much thought about until lately. To not feel their own pain, they disengage themselves from anything that activates those long ago buried emotions that they just as soon as prefer to forget about.
Victoria Volk
00:02:34 – 00:02:59
Additionally, people have their own lives and challenges they may be facing. It’s important to recognize that your friends may be dealing with their own personal struggles, which could be impacting their ability to offer support at this time. It doesn’t mean they care any less about you. It’s just that they may be managing their own emotional load. Communication is key in navigating these situations.
Victoria Volk
00:03:01 – 00:03:41
It’s important to express your feelings and needs to your friends in a gentle and open manner. Letting them know that you appreciate their friendship and would value their support during this difficult time can help bridge the gap and foster understanding. However, it’s also important to manage your expectations. Not everyone can provide the level of support you desire or need. It’s essential to seek out additional sources of support, such as support groups, therapy, or other individuals who have experienced similar losses or who have the capacity to hold space for you and the however you feel you need.
Victoria Volk
00:03:42 – 00:04:17
These resources can provide the understanding and validation you may be seeking. And lastly, it’s crucial to remember that friendships evolve and change over time. While it can be painful to see a sense of distance from friends during times of grief, it’s possible that these changes are a natural part of the ebb and flow of relationships. This doesn’t mean that the friendship is over or that it’s reflection of your worth. It’s simply a reminder that friendships, like people, are dynamic and subject to change.
Victoria Volk
00:04:19 – 00:05:03
In conclusion, if you feel like some of your friends are becoming distant and not providing the support you desire, it’s important to approach the situation again with empathy, understanding, and open communication. Recognize that everyone process their grief differently and that your friends may be dealing with their own challenges. And seeking out additional sources of support and being open to the evolution of friendships over time can help ease the pain of those relationships changing. So that concludes today’s episode, short, sweet, and to the point. I hope this discussion has provided some insights and guidance as you navigate the complexities of friendship during times of grief.
Victoria Volk
00:05:04 – 00:05:35
If you found it helpful, I’d be so grateful if you shared it or took a minute to leave a review or rate it on Apple Itunes or a quick star rating on Spotify as this helps others see that this podcast is worth a listen and for others to find it as well. Additionally, please reach out if you have any further questions or topics you’d like me to explore. I thank you for joining me, and until next time, take care, and remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grief, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY :
How often have we heard or even played ‘the guilt and blame game’ in relationships? This emotional turmoil hinders healing and obscures the path to genuine connection.
In today’s episode, we dive deep into the complex themes of self-love, self-acceptance, and navigating loss. Healing isn’t just about moving past grief; it involves embracing responsibility for our emotions, navigating forgiveness, and making peace internally—sometimes without confronting another soul. As a grief counselor, I’ve witnessed how loss challenges faith and spirituality but also offers profound lessons in nurturing them.
Regret may whisper tales of what could have been, yet authentic care means addressing those echoes within us rather than seeking external resolutions. Grief is personal—it carves unique paths for each wanderer—and advice must be sifted like grains through fingers until only what serves remains.
Today reminds us that life is transient—”you are dust, and to dust you will return.” This sentiment urges us to contemplate our aspirations before time writes its final word on our chapter.
An oracle card left me contemplating as it spoke of new chapters filled with uncertainty—an inevitable companion in growth. Embrace this dance with change as your story unfolds into awakening.
Here’s to new beginnings built on foundations of love—for oneself first—that ripple outward.
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Embracing Self-Love and Authentic Care on a Day of Duality
Today, we find ourselves at the crossroads of two significant observances – Valentine’s Day and Ash Wednesday. A day typically associated with romantic love coincides with one that marks introspection and spirituality. This unique convergence offers us an opportunity to dive deeper into the concept of self-love, which has been a buzzword in wellness circles but is often misunderstood.
Self-love transcends beyond surface-level indulgences such as bubble baths or nail treatments; it’s rooted in self-acceptance and compassion. In our fast-paced world, finding moments for quiet reflection can be challenging, yet it is through these moments that we cultivate self-awareness—a key ingredient for nurturing meaningful connections with others.
The Disconnect Within Ourselves
Our struggle to connect deeply with others usually mirrors our disconnection from ourselves. When faced with loss or heartbreak, it’s easy to fall into the trap of the guilt and blame game — pointing fingers either at ourselves or others for what went wrong. However, engaging in this cycle only hinders our healing process.
Healing Through Responsibility and Forgiveness
True healing begins when we take responsibility for our emotions instead of externalizing them onto someone else. It requires working through forgiveness — not just forgiving those who may have hurt us but also forgiving ourselves for any perceived failings or mistakes.
Addressing Regrets Without Confrontation
Reflecting on past relationships might stir up regrets or wishes that things had turned out differently. Authentic self-care means addressing these feelings internally without necessarily confronting the other person involved. As a grief counselor, I’ve seen firsthand how grief encompasses more than grappling with death—it also involves nurturing faith and spirituality during times when they are most tested.
Navigating Your Grief Journey
Grieving is profoundly personal; there isn’t a one-size-fits-all approach to managing it. Not all advice will resonate with you because your journey is uniquely yours—honor that by being selective about who you include in your support circle.
Ash Wednesday’s Poignant Reminder
On Ash Wednesday, we’re reminded “you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” This humbling message prompts us to reflect on life’s impermanence and consider what legacy we wish to create before reaching life’s inevitable end.
Embrace Uncertainty as You Step Into New Beginnings.
As today symbolizes new beginnings—for some in terms of love; for others regarding spiritual awakening—we must embrace uncertainty accompanying change rather than resist it.
An Oracle Card Message For You
In closing this discussion on duality between celebration and contemplation comes an oracle card message: Embrace the uncertainty as you step into new versions of your lives—let each new chapter unfold naturally.
Unleash Your Heart
Remember that unleashing your heart opens pathways not just toward fulfilling relationships but also towards living fully alive—with courage, purposeful direction—and ultimately unleashes your life itself.
Here’s wishing everyone strength on their journeys towards authentic self-love this Valentine’s Day meets Ash Wednesday—an ideal time for beginning anew while honoring where you’ve come from.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:03 – 00:00:35
Hello, beautiful souls listening to today’s episode. Thank you so much for being here. And I really didn’t know what I was going to talk about today when I sat down to record. It is in fact Valentine’s Day and it is Ash Wednesday. And my newsletter for this week was about a less-than-happy Valentine’s Day, which last week’s episode, if you haven’t listened to it, that’s what it was about.
Victoria Volk
00:00:35 – 00:01:52
And instead of reinventing the wheel, the timing of my newsletter coming out, which is biweekly, was the same topic. And so there’s been a lot of discussion and I’ve seen a lot of information out there and content about self-love, but I took it a step further in last week’s episode, and it is really more than about bubble baths and getting your nails done and all of that, which are all great, or taking a nap. But although I’m a huge proponent of self-care and, you know, pampering yourself, taking a spa day, spa day at home, enjoying a cup of tea, sitting down with a friend, all these little things that we can do, these micro-moments that we can cultivate for ourselves to nurture our souls, to nurture our spirit, to bring some lightness to our day, to bring some lightness to our Heavy hearts, I’m all for that. That’s and that’s a lot of what the content has been lately.
Victoria Volk
00:01:52 – 00:02:33
I even shared some of that in my newsletter. But I think when we talk about self-care, self-love, it’s more about self-acceptance, meeting yourself where you’re at, having compassion for yourself. And how do you do that? It’s really difficult to do that though, when you’re a hamster on the wheel of your own life when you don’t even stop long enough to sit in stillness or in the quiet. Because in the stillness and in the quiet is when fear comes up.
Victoria Volk
00:02:35 – 00:03:39
Is when the anxieties come up and our heart starts racing when we think about the future and our fists might clench up or our teeth might clench up or we might feel tightness in our body somewhere when we think about the past. So self-love really is self-acceptance, self-awareness, self-compassion. It’s all of those things. And it’s in doing the things to build connection within the self that we can build deeper connections within our relationships with others. And I think so many of us are walking around with these walls up in this armor, keeping ourselves at a distance from deeper connection to other people because what we’ve really lost is a deeper connection within self.
Victoria Volk
00:03:41 – 00:04:35
But what happened is we don’t think about that first relationship with ourself when something bad happens to us or something negative just knocks us off our feet in our lives, and we have this terrible loss, a devastating loss, whether it be by death or just estrangement or just a disconnect of relationship for some reason, maybe even unknown. Maybe just a distance comes between, you know, like two ships in the night. Right? And so we can quickly go to that place of blame, of wanting to blame. We can also feel guilt.
Victoria Volk
00:04:35 – 00:05:11
Guilt and blame. It’s the guilt and blame game. That’s what we play with ourselves, the guilt and blame game. And either we feel guilty about something that we did or didn’t do and or we want to blame or find something or someone to blame for how we feel, not taking responsibility for ourselves for how we feel. And so that’s what I wanna riff about today, which I’ve already kind of been riffing on for 6 minutes now or so.
Victoria Volk
00:05:13 – 00:07:00
But I wanna talk about and I might get into, like, this disconnect in loss of faith, Faith within ourselves, like, we lose faith within ourselves, but we also lose faith, I think, in life itself of feeling supported of a higher power, and it’s Ash Wednesday, and it’s all about Love today. And so all of this connects and ties in and maybe I’ll wrap it with a really nice Beau at the end in some way, but so I’m gonna feel like I might be jumping around a bit and maybe I hope you can stick with me and, I hope I can connect the dots for you, but I have so many thoughts and I guess that’s where I’m feeling a little scrambled at this moment, but I’m just riffing, so let’s see where it takes us. So coming back to the concept of loss of relationships or you know, things happening again, whether it be by means of death or otherwise. But when something or when someone important in our lives leaves for some reason, we’re often left with many things we wish had been different, better, or more. Sometimes the situation is such that the last interaction we had with them was maybe a fight or an argument, which leaves us with an additional emotional burden beyond just the normal impact of the grief and the things that are never going to happen because the other person died or is no longer in your life.
Victoria Volk
00:07:01 – 00:07:55
So I just wanna address that word guilt. Guilt implies an intent to do harm. When someone is no longer in our life because they either passed away or just again, like the relationship ended for whatever reason, we often reflect on our last interactions with this with that person. And it’s in that reflection where we can think about these things that we said or we did and how we wish we would have said things differently or wish we would have done things differently or how we wish a situation would have ended better. And we often in these moments of emotional these emotionally charged moments is when we often say things we don’t mean or say things in a tone we didn’t mean or they’re taking them in a different way that was intended.
Victoria Volk
00:07:55 – 00:08:26
And so this is where then you have this complexity of a relationship where it’s one person feeling guilty, the other person feeling blame, and this is in the normal. Like our typical relationships often have scenarios that play out like this. And so when one person passes away or doesn’t is no longer in our life, those feelings don’t go away. They’re still there. Now, of course, if you’re the one that passed away.
Victoria Volk
00:08:26 – 00:09:11
Of course not. But the one that’s left behind, and whether that’s guilt or that’s blame, you still have those emotions within you that you’re holding on to that you hold on to unless you have an awareness of their existence and work through processing those feelings and emotions and thoughts so that you can change them, so that you can move past the pain of the experience. And of course, you’ll still feel sadness, but the pain will be lessened. And a part of that is recognizing the 1% responsibility that you have. And I say 1% because so often for people, especially in cases of abuse and things like that.
Victoria Volk
00:09:11 – 00:09:39
It’s really hard just to take responsibility. Like, what is my responsibility? I wasn’t the one doing this. I wasn’t the one harming the other, especially in the case of abuse is what I’m getting at there. But when we take 1 at least 1% responsibility for how we feel, because really, it’s only us who are responsible for our feelings. We can change how we move forward.
Victoria Volk
00:09:39 – 00:10:22
We have a choice in how we move forward. And that plays into forgiveness and apologies and significant emotional statements that we work through and I do grief differently in the grief work that I do with clients. It’s still work that I personally do myself because whether people are alive or dead, they’re still in our lives. There’s still an emotional connection that exists and keeps on going. Relationships have many components, good, bad, and sometimes ugly.
Victoria Volk
00:10:23 – 00:11:06
And when the last interaction we had wasn’t good, we often carry that last bad interaction forward and sometimes lose sight of all of the other elements of the relationship. But by understanding that guilt is an intent to do harm, we can remove Inappropriate language. That’s not even appropriate for how a person feels. And this is where I want you to think about in a relationship that you have now, whether the person is still living or has died, what do you wish about that relationship would be different, better, or more. What are your losses of hopes, dreams and expectations for that relationship?
Victoria Volk
00:11:07 – 00:11:36
Is there anything you need to apologize for? Is there anything that you need to forgive? And there’s is there anything else that you haven’t said to this person that you wish you would have, either on the positive spectrum or on the perceived negative spectrum? Switching gears to talk more about blame. When something happens in our lives, we, it is our almost a knee jerk reaction to, oh, who can I blame for this?
Victoria Volk
00:11:36 – 00:12:09
Who’s at fault? You know, it’s our perceived you know, we’re always looking to protect ourselves, right? And so if someone is doing something that we perceive as an attack or someone did something physically, you know, there’s someone to blame. There’s someone on the other end of that that’s inflicting that either physical or emotional pain. And so it is easy to just point the finger and blame another person, and it might be very justified.
Victoria Volk
00:12:09 – 00:12:34
You know, this emotional energy has to go somewhere, and we often channel it through anger that is fueled by blame. So whether it’s another person who’s living or the person who has passed away, especially if the person’s passed away, you are stuck in emotional jail because you are never going to get an apology from someone who’s passed away. This is why that is personal work. Apologies, forgiveness, significant emotional statements. This is internal personal work.
Victoria Volk
00:12:34 – 00:12:53
It is for you, and it’s not for anybody else. And you don’t even have to confront the other person. And this is work that I do with clients. This is work that I’ve personally went through myself and continue to work through. You do not have to confront people to address these emotions that you’re holding in, the guilt and the blame.
Victoria Volk
00:12:53 – 00:13:14
And for so long, for so many years, like many of you probably listening, I blamed God. My dad passed away when I was young, and my life completely flipped upside down and inside out. What is a child to do? You know, we’re always taught that, you know, God loves you. And I was in Bible school, and then you’re told, well, they went into heaven.
Victoria Volk
00:13:14 – 00:13:34
And when you’re told these ridiculous things like, God needed another angel, do not say that to people. Because if you really think about it, if I told somebody if I told a child especially, well, God needed another angel. Okay. Well, I’ll just blame God then because, you know, my dad should be here with me, not with God. He should be here with me.
Victoria Volk
00:13:34 – 00:14:01
And so I’m gonna blame God because God took my dad, and that’s exactly what happened. You know, through that messaging, we’ve all done it. As parents, we resort to what we know, and I don’t even know who specifically said it? But maybe it’s just this messaging. It’s subliminal messaging that I was receiving in culture or you know, because by the age of 3, we have learned 75% of how to respond to life’s challenges.
Victoria Volk
00:14:01 – 00:14:43
So if that doesn’t blow your mind, I don’t know what does. But by the age of 15, we’ve already learned everything that we’re going to resort to to respond to life. And that is why it’s so important to understand the importance of language and the importance of not saying stuff like that to a child who has lost a parent or a pet because that child grows up thinking God is the reason. God is to blame. And that not only is a harmful thing to hold on to as a child growing up that way but imagine what that does to a child’s faith growing up.
Victoria Volk
00:14:43 – 00:15:35
And when you grow up questioning faith or questioning God, you don’t have that in your life. And I see so many people turning away from faith, turning away from God. And this is I’m not gonna I’m not gonna stuff a bunch of spiritual or God or faith stuff down your throat today, that is not my intention here. I am just going to simply say that having faith in and trust that you are held, that you are cared for, that you are loved, no matter what you have done, no matter what you have not done, that is the truth. That you were created in the image and the likeness of God.
Victoria Volk
00:15:35 – 00:16:05
And if you think about all of just the creation of a human life itself, if you just google it, it is astonishing. It is a miracle of how we come to be. It is an absolute miracle. And so you are a miracle, and we are all created of this Miracle stardust. And we don’t recognize our own beauty and our own light.
Victoria Volk
00:16:06 – 00:16:53
And when the shit hits the fan in our lives, we so easily forget that, and then we look to blame. Because little by little, our beliefs are challenged, our thoughts change, our behavior starts to change, and not in a healthy way. And this is how grief chips away at us little by little, until we come back to understanding and knowing ourselves. Challenging those beliefs that we have been taught, such as God needed another angel or whatever stupid shit you were told as a child just because your parents didn’t know better, the adults in the world did not know better. Again, they resorted to what they knew.
Victoria Volk
00:16:55 – 00:17:06
But even adults say stupid shit to other adults. That is not helpful. Oh, they’re in a better place. No, they’re freaking not. They should be here with me.
Victoria Volk
00:17:06 – 00:17:19
No, they’re not in a better place. Because this should have never happened. They should have never gotten sick. They should have never gotten in that car accident. That other person shouldn’t have been driving drunk.
Victoria Volk
00:17:19 – 00:17:53
Whatever the case may be, whatever the scenario or situation may be, this is so what this is we look to blame. We want someone to blame because our pain is so deep and so all encompassing. We don’t know what to do with it and so we just me personally I just filled with anger and rage. Eating me from the inside out. Literally just eating away and chipping away at my sense of self where I became just so disconnected.
Victoria Volk
00:17:54 – 00:18:22
I can look back in my life, like, it’s like little flashes or glimpses here and there, but my memory is so choppy because it wasn’t I was so often in that state of fight or flight. And I was not coping well. Not internally. Perhaps on the outside, I was told recently that they this person said I had no idea you were you went through all that you went through. This is where people say, well, children are resilient.
Victoria Volk
00:18:23 – 00:18:31
Are they? I absolutely hate that saying. Children are resilient. I absolutely hate it. Children are perceived as resilient.
Victoria Volk
00:18:32 – 00:19:08
So if you know of a child in your life who has experienced a devastating loss. And I don’t care if it’s their pet. Just think about what I’ve just shared in the last few minutes here. Because a child can exhibit that they are okay when really they’re not. But the only way you’re gonna know is if you allow yourself to go into the uncomfortable places within yourself where you can feel comfortable sharing, because it will take you as the adult to share first for a child to open up and share.
Victoria Volk
00:19:09 – 00:19:29
There are children that will, will open up and easily express through creative arts, through play. And that’s great. If that’s a gateway for you to open up a conversation, that’s great. But know that to create a space of safety for a child, you have to go first.
Victoria Volk
00:19:29 – 00:20:04
Just like you wouldn’t just approach another adult in your life and just ask them 50,000,000 questions and expect that they’re just gonna open up and share. Children are the same. It’s like you need a sense of safety and trust and security first before you’re gonna spill your beans, you know? But I’m getting kind of off track here to what I wanted to say about the loss of faith. And that was the case for me for many years because I did blame God.
Victoria Volk
00:20:04 – 00:20:15
And grief challenges our faith on so many levels. It challenges our spirituality. What is the meaning of life? Why am I here? What’s my purpose?
Victoria Volk
00:20:15 – 00:20:43
What it what can’t I explain? Why did this happen? But spirituality and tuning into ourself, connecting with ourselves, it helps us to understand and accept, I think, that there are just things that we just will never know the answer to and to allow that to be okay. I still don’t know why my dad died at the age of 44. And people will say, well, it’s it is what it is.
Victoria Volk
00:20:43 – 00:21:13
That’s just the part of life. Death is just a part of life. And I’ll tell you, I know people who have said that. And what I can connect though to the people who have said that, is they have yet to have their life completely upended. And so that is what I will say is the gift in grief, is an immense deep well of compassion, not only for myself, but for others who have had their life completely upended.
Victoria Volk
00:21:13 – 00:21:34
And this is an aspect, I wanna share that it’s important for you to think about who you’re taking your advice from. Who are you holding within your circle to hold space for you. Not everybody can do that. Not everybody is emotionally available to do that because they’re in the middle of their own shit storm, and to let that be okay. Not to blame.
Victoria Volk
00:21:35 – 00:21:47
Not to hold resentment. Everything starts from the top up in your life. And at the very top is you. Shit trickles down, my friend. That’s how it is in the military.
Victoria Volk
00:21:47 – 00:22:09
That’s how it is in Corporations. If you have a leader that is not leading that trickles down and so the common denominator in your grief story is you. And so everything that happens in your life and the choices that you make, all originate with you. And so today and moving forward on this Ash Wednesday.
Victoria Volk
00:22:10 – 00:22:40
I wanna remind you that you are dust, and to dust, you will return. We all will. What do you wanna do in your life and accomplish in your life before that happens. How do you wanna nurture the love within you, The relationship that you have with yourself before that happens. I wanna close today with a card I pulled from one of my oracle decks, postcards from spirit is what the deck is called.
Victoria Volk
00:22:40 – 00:23:05
Card I shuffled, and this random card fell out. I don’t think it’s random? It’s apparently the message that you, my listener, somewhere out there, needs to hear. But it reads, dearest you, we are gathering our magic together to help you celebrate your new beginning. You’re stepping into a new version of your life, getting to tell a new story as you recreate it.
Victoria Volk
00:23:05 – 00:23:50
Doesn’t it feel like spring when the urge to expand wells up inside you from a primal place? The form of what you are growing has yet to take shape, and it is exciting to experience this new and fresh beginning. It’s normal to feel both push and pushback when entering any kind of new relationship. It’s okay to admit you don’t really know what to expect. What you can know is it’s time to dive in and allow that new version of life to take shape through you on behalf of your partner and life Spirit, you have made it to a new level of awakening and contributing, and we are so excited to see where this will take you next.
Victoria Volk
00:23:50 – 00:24:14
We’re so proud of you. Well, friends, that concludes my riff for today. I hope it wasn’t too jumbled and my thoughts weren’t too scrambled and that you were able to glean something from something I said today, and that it serves you in your highest good. And until next time, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Educational, Grief, Grief Stories, Grief Tips, Personal, Pespective |
Recently, I was recording with a podcast host and was asked to share one thing listeners could do after listening to the episode. It could be something helpful, a tip, etc. Rather than sharing a tip, two questions came to mind that, in a nutshell, help us to name areas of grief in our lives and those were:
- What do you wish (about your life) would be different, better, or more?
- Where in your life do you have a loss of hopes, dreams, or expectations?
As I have been reflecting on that conversation, there is another way I would challenge you to ask those questions.
What breaks my heart?
What breaks my heart lately is knowing how fleeting time truly is.
Time was also an aspect of the conversation with the host that has gotten me thinking about my relationship with time.
The first question the host asked me was how I felt at that moment, which was unexpected. All the same, I appreciated the question. My response was that I was feeling overwhelmed.
I know the next eight weeks of my life will feel like a time warp; I already feel like I’m in some time machine. Time is moving so fast that it’s challenging to get my bearings, to feel grounded and centered, and amid the excitement, joy, grief, and feelings of overwhelm, there’s a strong desire to make it all come to a complete stop. However, there is no stopping it.
Many events are happening between now and mid-May, when our oldest child will graduate from high school. And I think it’s all starting to hit us. And what’s breaking my heart the most these days is that our family dynamics will soon change. One of our “pack” will leave to start a new chapter of life, shaking up our sense of “home.” And, I think to myself…”My God, if this is what it feels like when one leaves the next, how will I ever deal with the last one leaving the nest?”
Parenthood brings up all of the childhood junk we’ve yet to address in our hearts, and what comes up for us changes with the tides of parenting life. And what if you never had the opportunity to be a parent? Or, what if you had the opportunity to be a parent but, because of any number of scenarios, the child passed away before being allowed to see them leave the nest and spread their wings?
There is grief – no matter which way you dice it.
So what’s been breaking my heart?
Knowing that my family is approaching change and what will that change mean? How will that change affect each of us individually? I can say that I’ve already noticed small shifts – in a good way. I feel as though communication has improved. We are almost trying to squeeze the juice of each day a little more. These are good things. However, is my heart still breaking? Of course.
I know change is a necessary part of life. Without change, we would remain stagnant; growth would be a foreign concept. Changes that bring challenges are an opportunity to look within ourselves.
It’s a poignant question to dig deep into yourself today. Give yourself an intentional 15 minutes, and immerse yourself in the gift of time to uncover something simmering below the surface emotionally.
Break the habit of thinking that the solution to your problems is to rearrange things outside. The only permanment solution to your problems is to go inside and let go of the part of you that seems to have so many problesm with reality. – From The Untethered Soul
