Ep 123 | Jen Kidwell

Death/Dying, Educational, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Podcast | 0 comments

Jen Kidwell | Death, Legacy, and the Law

SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:

What do you want to happen if you are incapacitated while on your deathbed or after you die? If you don’t have a will, that decision may be left up to the state.

These are big questions that often don’t have answers for those who are left behind. In the most emotional moments, the family is left to make decisions that weren’t theirs. Each of us has a responsibility, not only to ourselves but those who would be left behind, to address our matters before those things are left to someone else to decide for us.

With a lack of preparation, this is the position we put our loved ones in, and it happens because we have an aversion to discussing these sensitive issues with those we love.

We don’t like to think about the end of our lives. However, considering we may not know when that is, preparation negates some of the pain for those left behind in the wake of loss. For those who may be struggling with terminal illness/diagnosis, it’s imperative to address as many of the topics as possible that Jen and I discuss in this episode.

As a lawyer and seminary-trained pastor-type who specializes in creating wills and trusts for families, this is one conversation everyone needs to hear. Jen creates comprehensive plans through her values-based approach and helps clients reflect on their legacies and relationships.

In this episode, you will learn the two mistakes most people make regarding estate planning and much more!

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Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Jen Kidwell. She is a lawyer and seminary trained pastor type who specializes in creating Wills and Trusts for families. She uses a value based approach to create comprehensive plans and helps clients reflect on their legacies, and their most important relationships. Estate planning is more than a series of decisions. It’s an opportunity to engage with big questions about what a good life and a good death look like for you. Jen loves to be invited into these conversations with their clients and finds her work fulfilling and meaningful. And it’s very much needed. And I as an end of life doula, although I’m not working in that capacity, yet, I’m still trying to figure out what that’s going to look like for me. But education, I know is a huge piece of it, because so many people don’t realize that it is possible to have a good death and that and the all the stuff that goes into it that we’ve kind of left until we have to face it. When we’re emotional noser. That’s really not the best time to make those important decisions. Would you agree?

Jen Kidwell 1:14
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, the these decisions are always going to have emotional components. Right. But when you’re approaching them more on your terms, and you have a sense of agency around it, and you’re not also trying to feel all of these other things, I think people really wouldn’t when they have space to do it, I think is really the it’s really the best time.

Victoria Volk 1:34
Yeah, so I’m really excited to dive deep into this conversation, of course, we’re going to talk about your losses, and what has kind of led to this work that you’re doing. And so let’s start there, grief touches every single human being whether you’re LeBron James, or Jen Kidwell. Or, you know, it doesn’t matter who you are, it touches everyone. And so how has grief touched your life?

Jen Kidwell 1:59
Well, I mean, I think in a lot, I mean, in a lot of the ways that that that people maybe are introduced to it at first i The first kind of loss, I remember was my grandfather back when I was in high school. And then my, my last remaining grandparent, my grandmother passed away this January, you know, experiencing these things is so different at different times in your life, especially after having had some, some training and some, you know, a lot more, a lot more life a lot more experience in these things. And so yeah, like lots of journeys. And I think grief also, I mean, the loss of people is obviously the primary place where people experience grief. But then there are other ways of, of, I don’t know, butting up against grief, or maybe journeying alongside grief at other times in our lives to write the loss of dreams, the loss of relationships, not to not because of a because of a death. And so I have become a lot more familiar with using grief language. And those experiences, which I held, I think really helps me to process and reflect on them. And gives me sort of a, you know, a box isn’t the right word, but a process maybe to to experiencing them instead of just, you know, Oh, these are hard emotions. And I don’t I don’t know, sort of what to do with them. So I think it’s, it’s touched me in lots of ways, the most recent loss of my, of my grandmother was, was was difficult, but also she’s almost 98. And her death was really very beautiful. And, and so that has been, I’ve learned a lot from that experience. And I think that’s something the way that she that she died is something I would aspire to, right. Like we were all able to be there we were singing hymns around her, we were, we were just able to surround her and remind her of who she is. She wasn’t conscious, but I like to think that maybe she could she could hear us or at least be aware of our presence. And we were carrying her into that space. And so while that was that was difficult. It was also it felt like the best way to love her in that moment. And I’m so glad we had the opportunity to do that.

Victoria Volk 4:03
Hearing is the last sentence to go. And so I’m curious, given your background, is there anyone else in your family that works in this type of arena? If not, did you find yourself resorting to these tools and this information and knowledge and bringing that to your family so that you could make that experience of family inclusive one?

Jen Kidwell 4:28
I’m the only person who has had some like, you know, training around these things, but my, my mom and her sister are close and my mom is kind of familiar in the in the medical field. And so I think we all sort of brought different things to that space, right? Like I we had to I got a call that she my grandmother was not was was dying and drove up to Boston, which is like an eight hour drive from from here. You know, packed my ukulele and my hymn books and other things and just was I was prepared to sort of occupy this space, however, it felt best for my, for my mom and her sister, and the rest of our family. And Gigi. So it was, it was nice to sort of to be there all together. And with each person sort of offering their own their own part, and, and it was, it was nice to, you know, after after my grandmother died to find some ritual and to offer some ritual, because that that transition, the the leaving, leaving the hospital afterwards was was really that was the hardest part, I think for me, because I would like to just keep caring for her right, like, I would like to be able to take care of, to take care of her to, to bury her not to have to turn her over to an institution, right, that was really hard for me kind of unexpected, that that was a kind of intense part of that process. But it was nice to be able to offer some ritual to kind of help with that with that process for others. So I definitely found some of that, that training to be helpful. And I hope it was, it was helpful for my family.

Victoria Volk 6:05
So given what you do for a living, is this something that your family has embraced for themselves and planning ahead, and, you know, I can see, as a daughter, you know, you would want to encourage your parents to make these decisions for themselves. And, you know, you’re kind of like, I know, for me personally, like, I’m, I’m like coaching my mom along like, hey, you know, do you really want to leave these decisions to us? You know, I don’t want to have to make this decision. You know, all of those things. Have you found? Like, is there? Can you go into that a little bit?

Jen Kidwell 6:39
Yeah I mean, it’s a process, right? Like, my, my parents are, they’re very, very responsible with all parts of their life, including their their financial life, they’re both in the have worked in pharmaceutical, healthcare related industries, and so are aware of, of many, many things. And so but there’s a lot of these conversations we haven’t had yet we are we we sometimes bring it up from time to time, but some things we just haven’t discussed, right. So I they have they have a well, I know, they have their advance directive planning and some of that that done, which is great, although we haven’t talked about it, so I’m not sure how done you can really, you can really call it and that’s one of the things I appreciate about this work is that, you know, I do the the legal documents, and then if if folks want to have a facilitated conversation between them and their designated healthcare agent, right, so that’s the person who would make healthcare decisions for them if they weren’t able to do so themselves. I’m I have some some training and how to facilitate those conversations. And and I’m happy to do that. But I think these documents are I when I when I you know, give people their their final kind of signed and executed documents, I always remind them that like, Okay, so now you have a checklist, right? These, each one of these documents is sort of now its own checklist for you. So you have to decide what you what you’re going to do with it. But I highly recommend you you sit down and have some some detailed conversations with the people that you’re giving, you’re giving these powers to and these responsibilities too. Because they’re these conversations now are gifts for the future, if they ever need to do that, right. Having somebody wonder what you would have wanted, when they’re faced with these, like really intense choices, is really hard and can really plague people I think for a long time, if they feel like they maybe didn’t make the right decision, or they still have doubts about it. And so offering that kind of clarity, you know, when people talk to me, they’re often very clear, oh, I want you know, a lot of people, a lot of people are, you know, I want I want the plug to be pulled like, as soon as the digit like, as soon as the doctors are clear that like there’s I’m not coming back, I’m done. We don’t want to waste financial resources, I don’t want to waste healthcare resources. This is the plan. And so they have strong feelings, many of them, not all of them. And, and so I always encourage them to speak very clearly and with detail with their with their agents. And so, you know, my you know, we haven’t had those conversations yet and my family, but we’re getting there, I think, and I know that my parents have done these these types of planning already. Oddly enough, my grandmother had, had not updated her her will from before I was born. So it was done in the early 80s. And many of the people in decision making roles in her estate planning had passed away. In fact, all of the people I think she had named had passed away. And she had also like expressed that she had wanted certain things changed in her like financial documents that she I guess was under the impression that they had been changed, but really they had not and so her estate is not particularly complicated. But there are these sort of complicated factors that have come into play because I don’t think she got great advice, you know, over over time and wasn’t kind of maintaining her plan the way That would have been ideal. So it’s all it’s all fine, or at least working through it. But it’s just like a little ironic that I am. I wish, I wish I had been invited into some of those conversations a little earlier, I guess I might have been able to help.

Victoria Volk 10:13
Well, that’s a great tip. It’s a working document, right, until the day you die. It’s a working document. So if anything changes, you know, it’s best to address those changes in a timely manner. Because we have no guarantees, right?

Jen Kidwell 10:26
Yeah, that’s right. And so I always, I tell folks that they’re, they enter into a maintenance phase. And so that is, and you know, we depending on their, on their goals, and their family, we try to build a lot of flexibility into their plans, so that, you know, if they don’t get around to updating them, that’s, that’s not there, but still will still be options for the decision makers or, or the people who are managing the estate. But But yes, I try very much just like this is a partially checked off item on your to do list, I’m a big fan of checklists. And, you know, and so I send emails, you know, after you know, every every year, to remind folks to update things, or to reach out if they need me to talk about something or have additional questions. It’s also true that the law changes a lot, a lot, actually, in this area, some big changes recently, have really, if people did their planning prior to 2020, some, some big changes have influenced how that that planning may end up playing out. And so that’s another reason why it’s just something to, to maintain. So, you know, once a year to like, spend a little spend a little brainpower thinking about it, and and check in.

Victoria Volk 11:39
I have a confession a long time ago, we had gotten like this booklet, or like a, like a full actually, I ordered it, I ordered this folder that had like all these documents in it like stuff, you know, basically it would be in my written words, what I wanted, and you know, different things like to prepare family and my wishes and things and even like financial stuff, right? Like the account numbers, and just all this stuff, and especially like having a business, oh my gosh, I can’t even imagine like my and my husband hates like, he kind of loads technology, like he hates computers he hates? Yeah. So he would be in total struggle bus. And so that is something really truly that I need to make easier for him. You know, I do have like a password book, you know, so that’s all in one place. You know, so that makes it easy. But yeah, so what are some quick off the cuff tips like that maybe people aren’t thinking about that they maybe should prepare for their family for and, you know.

Jen Kidwell 12:50
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, it’s so family specific. So that is, that’s one of the things I really enjoy about the kind of planning meetings that I do with people is, is really, that people, often when I do this process, and when other folks do this process as well, people will submit a worksheet that kind of lists lists, all all the stuff, right all of their, their financial life, their relationships, their physical assets, all of that. And, and that’s sort of the the first pass for our, our work together, kind of making sure that everything is taken care of, but Right, like if folks have oftentimes, like people who have young children think about life insurance, for you know, being able to care for their children, if they’re not here anymore, which is wonderful. But I think often as baby boomers age, there are more families that have minor children and also have parents living with them. And, you know, they got to think about what’s going to happen with their parents too. And so what that life insurance, maybe that maybe they need more life insurance, maybe they need to kind of figure out how to take care for the aging relatives, as well as the as the younger as the younger generation. I think there’s a lot of a lot of life happens online these days. And so you mentioned you have a password book, which is great. There are there’s software out there, you know, one one password and other kinds of things that some folks find helpful. One of the things that I think a lot of folks don’t don’t realize is that a lot of the accounts that you set up online like in social media, for example, those are not those accounts would then not be governed by a will so they are contracts that you are establishing between yourself and the you know, say Facebook for example. And so there’s in Facebook, there’s a way for you to go in and designate like a legacy person, you can sort of name someone who can have access to your account, you know, if you if you pass and and maybe like they can’t get into it otherwise and so sometimes these social media spaces will will have those kinds of options. Sometimes they won’t, and you might you know, that’s another password to make sure that’s in your it’s in your list if it’s an account that’s important or that you want to be maintained. cryptocurrency is like a bigger thing these days. Right. And like that’s, that’s also something that’s kind of hard to deal with in a will, because it’s governed by these by these contracts that you make with these, these companies that that run these kind of off the grid spaces. So that I was working with someone recently who just sort of like, for a hobby, you know, has some cryptocurrency and I was like, Okay, you we need to deal with that separately. That’s not like this is not in the same category as like a bank account. And she was like, oh, and it was a, you know, it was a new a new thing. So yeah, so a lot of those those kinds of things kind of come up. And depending on people’s businesses, or their or their hobbies, right, there might be other things. copyrights are a thing also to deal with, right? If you have a blog, then you own the copyrights to your blog? And like, do you want to do something with that? I mean, maybe not. Right? The answer might be no, but it’s a it’s a good conversation to have, because copyrights live out. They outlive people for a long time. And so sometimes there, there might be ways to monetize those copyrights for your descendants in the future. And so passing those passing those copyrights along is also something that, you know, people don’t necessarily think about these days, too. So there’s a ton of there’s a ton of stuff that can that can get wrapped up in these conversations.

Victoria Volk 16:11
And I just suddenly felt myself get very overwhelmed. I’m just, yeah, I, first of all, thank you for that tip, too. With the legacy account of Facebook, I had no idea at all because people put a lot of pictures on their personal accounts. And it’s like, well, maybe those are gone, you know, the person passes away. And then now my question too, is like with teenagers, you know, you can be a parent that outlives your child, and then they have all this stuff to write. And so I think it’s important for us, as a parent, me as a parent, I three teenagers to, like, how do you convince your kid? You know, I need your password? You know, maybe write it down somewhere that, you know, maybe I’ll find it? You know, I don’t know, like, how do you any tips on that?

Jen Kidwell 16:59
Yeah, like, so that, and that’s going to be different for everyone. Right? Yeah. When I do planning for folks, I give people a big binder, it has tabs and has all the things in there spaces for like other documents, or, and I encourage people to write letters. And so and to keep the letters in, in the, in the binder. So maybe the letter will letters will say like this is where XYZ is, this is where I didn’t want to keep the passwords with everything else, because that didn’t feel safe. So but I’m keeping them in this other place. Or like this is the name of a file on my computer where you can find this kind of thing. And so having one place one, one binder to kind of rule them all is is something I recommend, but the binder itself doesn’t have to have everything in it, it just has to point and point the right people to kind of where where they need to be. I do also, you know, when I do work with folks, I give them emergency cards, just like little business card size size guys, that, you know, they can do what they want with them depending on their life. And some people will take them to car seats, some people keep them in their wallets, some people like put them on their fridge. And then that is a usually I focus on decision makers and if there are minor children of emergency caretakers for minor children, but there’s no reason you couldn’t also include like the binder is d if you know if that feels like something that’s that’s useful to you so so yeah, like every family every person is going to it’s going to feel differently about that because they may may have different levels of trust for the people in their life other people who are likely to be in their home, but it’s it’s always a good thing to work I try to work work through that with each of each of my clients to come up with a plan that fits for them. And that works for their for their lives.

Victoria Volk 18:47
I just thought of a tip for myself and maybe even for anyone listening you know because I’m big into technology and stuff and I’m thinking like if I have a binder and my house burns down unless that’s in a safe that binders like poof right? I’m sure you have a backup personally Yeah, yeah, that information Yeah. But I’m just thinking for people who do this on their own right like I do have documents but they all filled out no, that’s my confession but to have an encrypted file on your computer or on your computer and a USB you know or something that then that USB is maybe with a family member or maybe if that’s in the safe you know that’s a little bit easier. Maybe it’s in the glove box of your vehicle right right.

Jen Kidwell 19:32
Yeah. That’s like access to a secure cloud storage space right that’s another.

Victoria Volk 19:38
Yeah or safety deposit box at the bank right that’s pretty secure spot.

Jen Kidwell 19:42
Yeah. So and you know, they make like the fireproof boxes or you know, some other some other things that that I know some people some people use as well. So So yeah, there are having in promote for many of these documents the well it depends but for like for a will like the original there. Very important. But if you have a copy and the family doesn’t disagree, right, depending on your state, that still might be enough. But but for other documents, like a health care directive, or maybe even a financial power of attorney, depending on the terms, a copy would, would work. So it again, it depends on the state. And it depends on the what the documents themselves say. But, but yeah, so those having those, those backups in other places can definitely help you out, depending on what the needs are.

Victoria Volk 20:27
You know, in my mind, I think of having all of this stuff prepared and ready and all the personal decisions made for you know, for your family members, like for yourself, but for them, it really can help negate any bad blood that can happen, right? The the inner fighting between the family of disagree, and like you mentioned, and I’m thinking though, like, there can still be that, even if you’ve done all this, have you seen that?

Jen Kidwell 20:58
I mean, I haven’t at well, there’s always stories, right? So there’s, there are, there are tons of stories that people share about families that just think that they’re their descendants, or that maybe their siblings will, will just get along, and it’ll be fine. And that, you know, say, you know, an elderly elderly relative moves in with their child and then puts their child’s name on their bank accounts or on these other, you know, financial institutions, financial accounts, and then when they pass, they expect that that child will evenly share all of those things with the other children like that. It doesn’t actually happen that often. And and it’s, it can be, it can be quite contentious, right? People go from from intending to share, to thinking I did, I did a lot of this work, right? Like I did all like I took care of mom, right? Like this is this should be mine. And then like it becomes it can get real messy. Yeah, I mean, I think even this is another place where writing letters can be really helpful because the the legal documents, you can put some of like the rationale right? A person creating these documents can put some of the rationale in there. But that’s not what they’re for. Right? These are decision documents. And so but the rationale, I think, is often things that really helps family Sorry, I got a little dark there for a second. So the the rationale are really things that that help families and help them understand why certain decisions were being made, or certain assets were kind of given to one, one person over another, or kind of how, however, whatever feels important to share can be shared. And I think that does help in in dealing with those kinds of disputes. Kind of nipping them before they they creep up.

Victoria Volk 22:47
Yeah, cuz I think for a lot of family members context, can change everything, you know, just having an understanding of why a certain decision is made. You know, we don’t know what we don’t know. And I think maybe that’s one tip, other Another tip I would think of, in how you compose a letter would be what is something they don’t know, but I feel is so important that they do know, that can change your perspective of this decision.

Jen Kidwell 23:18
Right, right. And I think always, and again, this makes like a lot of assumptions about the dynamics going on in any given family. But I think the things that we as humans want from our loved ones that pass on is like more conversation more assurances of love, more expressions of identity that help to ground us in who we are. And so these letters can serve for the to meet some of those needs to and so I think they can be super powerful. I also, you know, if people feel up to it, and are either have a buddy who is tech savvy, or maybe tech savvy themselves, the like audio audio recordings, or video recordings are, are maybe even more powerful than letters, because you know, it’s in, it’s in the person’s voice, they have the opportunity to kind of share stories in addition to like, you know, information about decisions, right. And so, then you can get more into these, like legacy interviews and those those kinds of things that are that are, you know, valuable in different ways, but in some similar ones too.

Victoria Volk 24:25
Yeah, there are actually there’s several apps out there now. I did a podcast episode, there’s one called after cloud. There’s been a couple others too, that I’ve come across, but yeah, where you can really it’s an archive of your family. You can put all kinds of things you legacy planning, like you had said, like what you Yeah, that’s a great tip, too. So what led you to doing this work?

Jen Kidwell 24:50
Any things right, the long and winding road? Um, I I’ve done a handful of things. You know, as you mentioned, I have a seminary degree and a law degree but She’s not like a super common combination. And so I have found ways to use each of them sort of separately in my in my career. But in thinking a lot about kind of the next step after my, my prior job was sort of feeling like I was ready to move on. I was thinking a lot about what I love the most about working with people. And I think that that is meaning, right helping people create and we I love the the metaphor of weaving, meaning helping people weave meaning in their lives. And so the law is not great. It’s a great tool for that. But it’s this is definitely a space where I feel like I’m meeting a legal need, right? Like, you know, I enjoy enjoys maybe a strong word, but like, I appreciate a well written statute. I appreciate, you know, legal research and sort of combing through all of these these things and finding answers to complex problems. So I enjoy that personally. But then the broader context of conversation around like, what is what is the meaning of your life? What is the meaning of your death? Like, how do you want to talk about that? And how do you want to integrate that into the decisions that you’re making? Right? Like, your will, is probably not going to go into details about how you reflect on that. But ultimately, it should be a reflection of all of work that you do, to come to answers around those questions. So yeah, so I think I think that’s one of the things and also, I just I think our culture has such as an aversion to thinking about deaths, I think the healthcare industry has an aversion to acknowledging that, like death is the outcome for everyone eventually. And so I appreciate to invite people into some of those conversations, you know, my prior job, I was working at a church, I worked with youth and young adults, and then regular adults to do to do a bunch of programming and why teenagers, my youth loved to talk about death, they had so many questions, they, you know, adolescence that lots is happening, a lot is happening in adolescents, especially, like now with, you know, more and more awareness of, of mental health and, you know, trying to learn skills to support their peers, or, you know, even strategies to help them themselves in these spaces. And so, we used to spend a ton of time talking about death, and I thought it was wonderful, the opportunity to reflect on these things with them, and to create a space where they felt safe doing that, in the context of a faith that they that they claimed that maybe can could help provide some light posts along the way as they as they figure these things out. And so, so all of those things kind of wove together. And, and led me to this space, which I I’m enjoying and finding, quite meaningful.

Victoria Volk 27:57
That’s wonderful. And I’m not surprised that the teenagers love to talk about death or enjoyed that. Because for like you said, the many of them don’t have a space where they can ask their questions. And because like you mentioned, as adults, we have an aversion to death and dying, and we don’t want to talk about it. And even just attending a funeral or someone in the family passing away, it brings up all types of stuff for ourselves, because we’re reminded of our own mortality. And that’s confronting for many people, like, Oh, I am going to die. And I don’t know when no, like, that’s, that’s life. Right? That is life. And so I think it is important that that is important work that you were doing, do you still kind of dabble in that from time to time?

Jen Kidwell 28:44
So um, I mean, the, I have young kids myself, and so the schedule and the balance seems to change week to week kind of what is possible. But I love you know, my, my younger, my younger one isn’t ready to have any of these conversations yet, but my six year old is like, right, they say that like three is the Europe death, right? When when kids are three, they are very curious, they have all the questions like this is the time, but she’s never grown out of that. And so we talk about death all the time. And after, after my grandmother died, we and we, we still talk about it a lot. And before her before her memorial service, we went to the cemetery. And we spent we walked around, we spent a lot of time kind of thinking and feeling and and talking about that space that she’d never, you know, she’d never been there before. And you know, at her service, we went up to the altar, and we sort of touched all the things and we like talked about how the the rituals that are that are part of this kind of help us to to make meaning out of what’s happening and to kind of understand what’s happening in some different ways. And so having those conversations with with her has been has been really wonderful and she has her own beautiful way of understanding these things and of kind of interpreting, interpreting all of it too. So I mean, the way that many kids Do so that’s been a gift of that experience as well the opportunity to reflect with her. So So yeah, I mean, the the balance, I think will continue to shift over time, but I certainly still still love my teenagers and, and then you know, I mean adult groups to churches and other kind of faith or kind of ethical spaces I think are, are also I mean, they’re sort of made for this, I think right there. They’re made, not just to like, I mean, I love the fellowship, I love the fellowship of these spaces to write, go have a potluck, like go plan a fundraiser, like go go do good work. But some of the good work is going to be kind of sitting with each other in these like big questions that are really scary that we’d rather maybe avoid.

Victoria Volk 30:43
So here’s another tip that I thought of as I was listening to your talk. So there is a for parents listening, there is a book called when children grieve. It is the foundation of a program, the Grief Recovery Institute has called when helping children with loss. And I think that that would be a great book for parents to read or caregivers or caretakers to read. And then an invitation to take the child like you said, like a great segue to like, Well, how do I start that conversation? Right? Is go to a cemetery. And ask your child, ask the child like, what are your questions like? What are you curious about? What are you wondering, What can I answer for you, especially a child who is grieving, it opens up that conversation, but you have to be open as a parent to, or as a caretaker, you have to be open to that conversation yourself as well. It’s so important, I cannot stress it enough how, as children, like by the age of three, you’ve learned 75 That’s why they say since probably age three, you’ve learned 75% of how you will cope with certain insert certain situations like how you will respond to certain situations. By 15, you’ve pretty much taken in everything in your environment that has taught you how to respond to life. So it’s so important that we start early, and we start young to have those conversations so that future generations aren’t as have don’t have that same aversion to death, right, that we do. Or that even probably even 20 somethings do.

Jen Kidwell 32:21
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the and I think one of the most important things about approaching these conversations, I mean, regardless of who you’re having them with is like a, an openness to the kind of mysteries, right like even as even people of faith who feel certainty around certain or you know, whoever whoever write for President faith or not, who feels kind of certainty about how how things work, during death or after death, I think creating space for that mystery, especially when when talking with with kids, and letting them kind of work their way through instead of kind of providing them with an endpoint and kind of shutting down some of that reasoning process. And some of that discovering for them is, is also is super important. So that they they come to a sense of ownership of it themselves. So I could talk about this all day. Yes, yeah.

Victoria Volk 33:17
Thank you for mentioning that. Because I actually mentioned that yesterday in another podcast conversation about how beliefs that are passed down can really pigeonhole us, you know, we get so set in our ways of, there’s no, that openness kind of goes away. Right to, you know, so I love that you’ve mentioned that, because I think it’s so important, like, just be open and curious to the questions and leave something to be discovered. You know, don’t answer you don’t have to have an answer for everything. I guess that’s that’s the lesson there.

Jen Kidwell 33:50
Right. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with coming to a different answer over time. Right. I think so often, is one of my favorite parts of leading isolate a confirmation class at my at my church, which, depending on people’s familiarity was sort of a an opportunity for middle schoolers to think about whether they wanted to sort of formally declare that they were wanting to continue in this tradition, opportunity one way or another. And so, but that we only talked about the questions, right, like we are embracing the questions. So we’re going to talk about some of the possible answers. And I would love to hear sort of how you’re navigating these things. Here are some of the the answers that your tradition has offered over time, because I don’t want you to be 40 and stuck with like the faith of a 12 year old, because that’s sort of what you think faith means. Right? Like, it has to be a certain way. Yeah. Right. And so that I used to have so much fun with them doing that. And, and I think my experience kind of working with them, led me to have different conversations with adults as well around sort of like where did you learn the answer to this question, like, Does it still feel true to you? If the answer is no, maybe that’s what Okay, and we can kind of we can work on on discovering something else within this big tradition that might feel like it better reflects your experience and the way that you know, you feel called to respond in any given situation. So, um, yes, the mystery is a good thing.

Victoria Volk 35:16
Yes, I’ve actually just had a post about that. Good Friday how, you know, I don’t care what you believe it’s, you know, maybe there are just some things that are a mystery. There’s, how can anyone on this physical plane possibly know for sure, right, impossible. Right, in a lot of ways, like, we don’t know everything, look at how much is undiscovered in the cosmos. And under the, in the ocean, right. And even our bodies, like what our physical bodies are capable of, like, I think we’re, we, we just don’t even have, we couldn’t even wrap our head around what we don’t know yet. About everything under the sun. So yeah, thank you for bringing that. Yeah, I think it adds just a childlike wonder to, to what what is possible at end of life. And I think that can bring people comfort too. And you know, there are people that really struggle with I think death and dying because of an indoctrination sometimes of you know, I did this thing, I’m, I’m guess I’m destined for hell, or, I’ve done this thing and all these good works. So I, I know, I’m going I know there’s a place for me in heaven. I think there is a mystery there that we just, we won’t know until we know, for ourselves. But anyway, I’m sure I could talk about that all day. So how long have you been doing this work like specifically helping people with estate planning.

Jen Kidwell 36:53
So this is like and again, like I’ve had sort of different points where I have I have done done this over time. But I’ve only been kind of really dedicated kind of 100% of my professional time to it for about a year and but again, like it’s it’s sort of has found me at different points along along the way but but yeah, so it’s it’s still a newer endeavor.

Victoria Volk 37:18
So have you personally gotten your ducks in a row for years?

Jen Kidwell 37:23
You’re still in process we’re still in process so like you mentioned the having a business makes it all makes things more complicated and so we have been kind of in in process of updating and trying to figure out the best the best way to move forward with the I have another kind of another a second business as well it’s sort of more of a hobby space. And you know, talking a lot with my spouse about the best you know, does he does he feel like he could sort of step in and do these things or like do I need to like a point unusual which is a lot of conversations to have like with uh, you know, other attorneys who might be willing to be like a triage person to come in and work with my work with my clients and you know, make sure that everything is wound up right so there’s there’s a lot that goes into it and so yeah, so we are we are still updating although we have a goal of the middle of next month as our as our like as our time so I think it will it will be wrapped up pretty soon and then you know if things need to change we will we will change them right just like just like with others and so as I am really enjoying my work now it’s it’s just me but I am I’m busy and so you know as I may grow my business may may grow and other other folks are involved like that that plan may may change over time. So we will we will maintain the plan just like I advise everyone else to do.

Victoria Volk 38:50
I could totally like I just had a bit I had a vision for you. Visit for you. I don’t know if you have an interest in like Do you have a brick and mortar?

Jen Kidwell 39:01
No not yet again with the small kids I am woman juggling and all of that most of the time but we hope to have one in the near future.

Victoria Volk 39:10
Yeah, yeah, I envisioned this brick and mortar have like this one stop shop for like, end of life. Planning like end of life. doulas, like all these resources like in this one place and,

Jen Kidwell 39:24
I have I get more pride I tried this with you but I have I have flirted with end of life doula training, often and and I’m in some of the Facebook spaces and sort of passively learning from all of the wisdom that is that is shared there. But that was that was one of the there are there’s at least one or two. There’s at least one end of life doula training program I can think of that was started by a woman who is an attorney and sort of backed into this work kind of going with Grace maybe is what it’s called. And she used to sort of do both of these things. And I think at this point has just shifted to the end of life doula And now she has training and she does all these other things. But yes, I have often often felt like, like a team of folks who were similarly minded, who understood the interplay between all of these things would be a valuable resource for for the world. And so we’ll see where that vision takes us.

Victoria Volk 40:20
As you’re talking to, I just, I was like, Oh, my God, because you were talking about like, your clients. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, like, I hadn’t even thought about that. Like, if I’m in the middle of a grief program with one of my clients, like, who? Who do I refer? Like, who to where do they go, right? And that’s horrible. Because in the work that I do, it’s like, I can be in, like, I can be at session seven or eight. And then there’s 12 sessions, and it’s important, meaningful, deep work, and it’s like, hang them dry, like, oh, my gosh, I need to plan that stat. First of all, so thank you for that. And then also, I thought of to like caretakers. Like, if you are a parent, who’s caring for a parent, like that sandwich generation, if something happens to you, what happens to that parent? That’s huge. That’s a huge. Yeah, that sounds very overwhelming to me.

Jen Kidwell 41:17
I know, I know. I know. Yeah, it did. And it can be I think, but, but even sort of think thinking through what it could look like for your family, and, and what you know, what the aging parent wants, what their values and their priorities are. So that sandwich generation is, is in a, in a hard place, because they, they need to make sure everyone gets what they need, and they themselves are spread very thin. And I know that can be super hard. And so you know, seeking support, whether again, that’s in some sort of community space, or a faith space, or a like a space to like intentionally plan these kinds of things out rather, whether that’s with an attorney, or, or a financial adviser, or, you know, whoever that structure can maybe can maybe be helpful to organize all of these interests into something that makes sense.

Victoria Volk 42:09
I was gonna mention too, so I trained through in Elda, I N E LDA. So I can put that in the show notes if anyone listening has an interest in end of life type of work. But yeah, I highly recommend that organization. I can I share that with you. So of course you’re in Maryland. And so a lot of the things that you share kind of generalized in people have to look at their own state specific stuff. Are there some things that you know, for sure, that definitely vary from state to state that people need to keep in mind?

Jen Kidwell 42:43
Well, yeah, I mean, there are there are a lot lots of things like it’s it’s tricky, because there’s nuance in every state, the general shape of what the documents can do are often very similar, but the even the the intestacy statute, right, so that is 50 cent word. But that is the default for what happens if you die without a will. Right. And so a lot of people say like, you know, if they don’t have a well, they’re like, Oh, well, I don’t I don’t have a plan, you do have a plan, it is the state’s plan, the state’s plan is what will happen if if you die without having kind of looked at that and made a plan for yourself. And that is different in every state, right? Sometimes it you know, divides everything evenly between children, sometimes the spouse gets everything, sometimes it’s divided between a spouse and children. Sometimes it’s, you know, it’s divided, sometimes parents are factored in if they’re their surviving parents. And so that’s something that’s different in every state. And so it’s different that it would have to be sort of worked around with with a with a will, or trust, depending the ability to name Guardians is something that in most states, or guardians for minor children, is something that in most states is only something you can do on a will, there are a few states that allow you to have kind of a separate document that that appoints a guardian for minor children, but in most, it’s just a will. So that is, that’s a big deal. Because there are a lot of people who feel like they don’t have anything, which may or may not be true. Sometimes when you start to think about like, you know, retirement assets, and just kind of little pieces of property here, they’re kind of adds up maybe to more than one might expect. And so they feel like they don’t really have anything but they come to me for a well because they want to name guardians for their children. And so that’s, that’s a big thing to think about. If you do have minor children and you don’t feel like you have anything you can get a will that is I always recommend going to an attorney because again, you don’t like you were saying earlier, you don’t know what you don’t know. And there are a lot of forms that you can get online or forms from other spaces. And depending on your situation those like might be they might like get you started, but but they might not ask the right questions. They might not sort of you know, they’re not able to reflect with you and kind of enter in the process with you and so or, you know, talking to an attorney, even if you feel like you have a simple situation and only need it for one thing you may find, you may find that a couple other couple other points are important. So but otherwise there’s there’s variation, right in some states probate. So probate is the process of retitling assets that are in your name when you die. And so if you’re thinking about like, so assets that you hold by yourself, if you when you die, you can imagine that you drop the assets and then the court is like, oh, assets on the floor, this is we have a process for how to like pick those back up and like get them where they need to be. In some states, probate is not so bad, right? It doesn’t take a super long time, and maybe only takes like nine months to a year, it may not be super expensive. And so there may be great resources in your state for how to how to go go through that without needing to hire an attorney. And then in other states, it may be crazy, right? Like in California, people work really hard to avoid probate, because it’s very expensive. And it takes a very long time, and things get tied up forever. And so that’s a that’s another thing that really varies a great deal. by state. I think in culture, people just really want to avoid probate because they’ve heard terrible things. And depending on your situation, that might be true. But depending on your state and your and your family and your life, it may not it may not be so bad. So lots of variation.

Victoria Volk 46:20
So would you say the biggest mistake that people made make at end of life planning, estate planning, all of that is not going with a lawyer.

Jen Kidwell 46:30
Again, it really depends, I really do think that even if even if it’s just like attending an information session, or you know, a lot of attorneys have, I care a lot about the education and counseling parts of my role, as hopefully you could tell. And so I do a lot of educational like seminars, and I go to mom’s groups, and I go to church spaces and talk about all of these things, to try to help people you know, feel confident that they can like attack the process. And, and there are a lot of attorneys out there who will, you know, sit down and have a conversation with you. And not, it’s not, it may not be quite as friendly as you think, depending on depending on your needs. And so it’s definitely worth looking looking into, even if it’s something that you might need to budget for a little bit, having the peace of mind of kind of going going through that with an expert, who knows and understands how the laws have changed, what what changes may be in the pipeline, and how to kind of plan for those two is a big deal. Like I mentioned, they’re big changes went into effect in 2020. And so people who planned, these big changes primarily have to do with retirement accounts. So people who planned to do certain things with their retirement accounts as part of their estate planning before 2020. Like those, some of those things are just not possible anymore. And so they if they haven’t updated, if they haven’t stayed in touch, they haven’t reached out to an attorney who has been wrestling with this crazy law for a long time. They’re not they’re not going to know. And they’re not going to know if they need a different structure, or if they need to kind of update their plan accordingly. So, so yeah, I mean, I think seeking professional advice from an attorney is always a good call. But as it relates to the biggest mistake, it’s hard to tell between not speaking to an attorney, and then not speaking to your decision makers. These are, these are sort of similar, I think, in terms of their, their importance, in terms of how the plans actually play out in the end,

Victoria Volk 48:38
I just had a scenario cross my mind. And I’m just like, oh my gosh, I couldn’t even imagine like, if you’re college age, but you but let’s say you’re a parent, your parents, right, and you have college age, but you also have kids still in school, high school, and something happens to both you and your spouse. So you got student loans, you’ve got kids that are still in school that need, you know, a parent role model like oh my gosh, that is such a complex, like, I cannot even imagine the situation, what is like the most complex, complicated situation you’ve come across that maybe people haven’t considered for themselves.

Jen Kidwell 49:16
Oh, man. Um, so again, like the the retirement, the change in the retirement roles has really impacted what the best, the best thing to do with some of these retirement cards aren’t right. And so the reason that the laws changed in 2020, is because Congress was looking, they were like, hey, these people have some of these people have a lot of dollars or their retirement accounts, and they’re not actually spending it in retirement. They’re using it as like a wealth transfer vehicle to share it with the next generation or with, you know, with children or with grandchildren. And so that’s not why retirement accounts were made. And so we could probably tax those a little differently and, and incentivize people sort of using them more during retirement. it or you know, tax them create a different scheme where they end up being taxed differently, so that we recoup some of those dollars. And so that has meant that people who have like charitable intent, right, so maybe they want to, like benefit another person during like, so they, they die, and they want to benefit another person during their lifetime. So they want to use a trust and benefit that person during their lifetime, maybe they’re not super great with money, or maybe they have some special needs, or maybe, you know, there may be other reasons. And so they’re gonna have a trustee manage that account and, you know, meet the person’s needs. But then if there’s anything else, they want to go to charity, that seems like a very reasonable thing to want to do. And it’s actually not quite complicated, because of the ways that charities are treated under the new law, and the ways that people within certain degrees of relationship to the plant owners are treated to so dealing with retirement accounts has gotten much more complicated. And, and that is, that’s frustrating, because a lot of folks have have retirement accounts, and they started contributing to them a long time ago. And, you know, they viewed them as savings vehicles, not just for themselves, but for their families. And so with this change, those those folks have have different different options. So now, people who have maybe some charitable intent, but also want to benefit their families. Now we’re looking more at doing charitable remainder trusts, which are cool, cool things that allow you to continue to benefit your family. Now, over the course of you know, the lifetime of the beneficiaries you choose, and then ultimately, then the rest would go to charity. And that, so that may end up being a better vehicle than a more traditional retirement trust. So yeah, I know, that sounds like a little, a little nitty gritty. But um, but those those rules have gotten have gotten pretty complicated. Yeah, and I think it is also thinking about folks with children who have who are like far apart in age, right. So if you have, you know, a 10 year age gap between two kids maybe or if you have kids that are sort of really spread out creating a trust that meets all of their needs, given that they will have very different needs when one is like 17, and one is 30, right like that, that can sometimes be challenging to design a trust to that will, that will work well for for everyone and make sure that the younger child has all of the has access to the opportunities that the older child had, you know, as it relates to maybe going to college or graduate school are other things. And so, and that’s a very like, back to the specific situation that you just sort of deal with as it comes up. But but sometimes can be tricky.

Victoria Volk 52:51
Well, this has been a wealth of information. I feel like, I’d probably come up with 50 More questions easily. But is there anything that you feel is of utmost importance that you didn’t get to share that you feel the listeners need to hear?

Jen Kidwell 53:07
I mean, I think that we’ve you’ve mentioned many times, and I totally agree that at some points, just considering all of these things can be very overwhelming. And, and so when you have that kind of overwhelm experience, I really encourage folks to like return to your values and return to something that is grounding to you. Right? Whether these are kind of stories, that that help you reflect on what is really meaningful to you are stories, that you’ve things you’ve experienced that you’re like, Oh, well, I definitely don’t want that to happen, or I don’t want I don’t want to feel like that, right? I want to feel like this, those kinds of resources, from your own reflections and from your own life are, I think, a great place to go and retreat when you have that kind of overwhelm. And so So staying staying true to those things and and finding, you know, a home in those things, when, when these kind of technical pieces feel a little overwhelming, I think is a is a good call. So I would I would encourage that and and hopefully that is that is a helpful tip.

Victoria Volk 54:09
What is one thing that you would love to scream to the world about your grief experience or this work that you’re doing?

Jen Kidwell 54:18
Hmm, I mean, I think one of my favorite metaphors for grief and there are so many good ones is that and it works really well with my like weaving the way that I understand sort of meaning in the world, but that that grief is like a drop stitch. So I’m not really a knitter. I really enjoy spending time with knitters because I find their knitting to be very soothing. I have been known that family functions just sort of curl up next to someone knitting and b b suits. But my understanding is that when you are knitting and you drop a stitch, you can either go back and fix it. Or if you don’t, it just leaves sort of a little hole in the in the finished garment or the scarf. I think that’s such a good metaphor for grief because You can’t really go back and fix it right? Like you can’t, you can’t undo it, you can’t make it go away, it is just it becomes a part of you, it becomes a part of you that you carry into all aspects of your life, right. And there will be moments when all you feel like you can see is the whole and there will be moments when you can zoom out and see the whole the whole garment and the garment, your life is still beautiful and meaningful, even though it ends up with all these little holes in it. It is uniquely yours. And those people that the love of those people is still with you, right? It’s reflected in these in these little kind of absences. And so I’ve been reflecting a lot on that, as you know, we we just celebrated Easter, right. And actually, so many holidays, this season is so great, they all overlapped all these like religious traditions and very beautiful to see reflections of that. But my my grandmother was a singer and sang beautifully, right, she died, she was almost 98 and had a beautiful voice. And I have so many recordings of her singing that I did very sneakily. So she didn’t know, and, and I think, you know, in the choir on Sunday, and thought of her a lot like it was it was a beautiful way to feel close to her. And so I think as we get through sort of the first year of of her not being with us, there will be so many of those opportunities to feel close to her. And to feel all the feelings, right joy and humor and sadness. And, you know, wishing she could be here to tell us some of the stories that that we’ve heard before, but that she you know, she tells the best. And so, so I think it just is cycling, we will I will cycle through it. And that is okay. That’s how it is.

Victoria Volk 56:47
Thank you for sharing that. What’s your grandma’s name was Gigi?

Jen Kidwell 56:52
We Yes, we called her grandma. And then after she had great grin. great grandchildren, they called her GT great grandma. So yes, so she got to spend a lot of time with them in the in the month before she died. And and that was a that was a gift, a gift to everyone.

Victoria Volk 57:08
Yeah, no, a lot of kids get that opportunity. It’s amazing. What is one thing that your experiences have taught you like grief and the work that you’re doing?

Jen Kidwell 57:18
I think it’s that the default is not a good death. Like the medical system, there are so many things that really push people towards an institutionalized death experience. And that’s not always avoidable. But there are, there are times when it feels like doctors, other people are not kind of brave enough to talk about these things with families. And so like families need to be brave, and to be aware of the options and be able to like assert the vision and the options that they have. And so the opportunities for whether it’s hospice, whether it’s working with an end of life doula, whether it is kind of just finding ways to claim a space for your loved one in an institution, right, like using using music using art using reading, right, like there are so many tools that we have to create an influence a space to reflect to the the personality and the the joys experienced by the person who is needing to be in that space. So I think just being aware of that, like, what a good death is to you is probably not the default of what like the system is is going to provide you unless you you act within it. So I know that’s not like one of the shouldn’t I should have probably thought of illegal take away but that I feel like is a big really important thing. That is you know, then loved ones carry with them for the rest of their for the rest of their lives. And so yeah, it’s a it’s a it’s a big deal.

Victoria Volk 59:04
It is a big deal and I’m I’m very glad that that was your your share because we do medicalized dying, and death. And I had Dr. Chris Curry. He’s I’ve mentioned in his episode many times throughout all different conversations and I’ll put it in the show notes again on this episode because he was an ER physician whose job was to keep people alive. And what he saw in the work he was doing at that time was people were not physicians were not being honest with family about what was truly happening with their loved one, that they were actively dying. And so he said we medicalized we’ve medicalized dying, and then they die in the hospital. They die in the nursing home away from their family or loved ones, and oftentimes alone, and he’s, you know, so he’s a huge he’s actually he switched gears completely and has been a hospice physician now for many yours and is studying has studied the end of life experiences of people who are dying and was featured in the Netflix Docu series. Surviving death. You might be interested in if you haven’t yet, haven’t seen it, I’ll have to look into who you would like that. So yes, I’m completely on par with what you just just shared. What is one thing I’m putting on the spot? So what is one thing that you can think of off the top of your head that this I want present? Like, if you have that agency, you have that choice, you’re, you know, have a good death? What is one thing that is an absolute that you want? At your end of life?

Jen Kidwell 1:00:45
Hmm, I think I’ve thought about this a lot, especially after, after being there with with my grandmother and I think laughter is something that I want kind of around around me right laughter of my laughter of my loved ones and my kids, right? People telling stories and carrying the joy that I hope that I bring into the world, right, carrying that, that forward, I think about some of my favorite children’s books, and how I would love for people to kind of people to read them to me, whether I whether I can experience them or not, but so that they can experience them kind of together. So I think laughter is a is a big thing. I remember it was that was a significant moment, when we were together, around right GG had passed, but we were still sitting sitting around her and talking about her and playing music and, and sharing stories and laughing and that just felt like a really lovely way to honor her honor her spirit. And, and so yeah, I think I think laughter should be in the room. Even though you know, it might be sad. Hopefully, it’ll be a little sad. But I don’t want people to be to be afraid, too afraid to tell stories and to and to be silly and playful. So yeah,

Victoria Volk 1:02:08
I just got full body chop up. That was good. That was very good. Thank you for sharing that. And it is true. I think, you know, we it’s almost like you feel guilty for feeling joy in a moment like that. You know, and it’s like you just expressed it’s, that’s the juice of life is joy. Really. It’s all the things.

Jen Kidwell 1:02:29
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We were embodies all of that. Yeah. Yeah, I was with my daughter in the cemetery before the day before my grandmother’s service. And my mom and I were there together. She has a My mom has done done a ton of childcare for us and is much beloved, by my by my kiddos, really, by all children, she encounters. But and so Lucy, my daughter was was there and we were she was sort of like skipping around and, and I could tell at first that my mom was a little uncomfortable with the fact that she was like, being a six year old kid kind of, you know, dipping in and out of the of the reflection and being kind of silly. And I, I wanted to say something to kind of help both of them maybe feel a little more comfortable. And so I I told I told this is like Sweetie, you. I want you to be joyful. If you’re if you feel joyful here be joyful, right? We are respectful. We do not, you know, we don’t touch the gravestones, we don’t you know, there’s a lot of things we don’t do. But think about all the people who were buried here and all of the life that they loved, right? They all had a favorite joke, right? They all they all had moments in their life when they couldn’t stop laughing. And so think about how it’s like it honors them to bring that spirit to this place. Right? And so and so yes, we are respectful. But absolutely, we are also playful. We are also you know, if you’re feeling joyful, then then you’re joyful. And we live in that space, too. And so that was a I was really glad for both of them actually to be able to kind of share that and then talk about it a little bit with them. Because again, like we don’t work somber, right, where cemeteries are somber, and maybe that’s okay, sometimes. But, um, but maybe not all the time. So,

Victoria Volk 1:04:16
That’s, that’s the gift that children give us. Righ? Yeah. And lighten up, lighten up a little. And here’s another tip. You know, when I was when I was listening to, it’s really considering that person that you’re there to support and their their transition. What did they love? What did they enjoy? Bring that to the room? You know, it’s like you love children’s books. So Exactly, exactly. Like you said, like, what are some of her favorite books and when I used to volunteer at the nursing home, I don’t have the time like I want eventually I want to get back to that. But I would read to the residents, the newspaper whatever it was they wanted me to read because you lose You know, your eyesight isn’t the best you get to a certain age, you have glaucoma, cataracts, all these things you can’t. And if you loved reading the paper, and you can’t do that anymore, you’re not you can’t enjoy the paper anymore. And so having someone to read it to them, right. So, I think that’s a good tip for to leave people with as well. If you have someone who’s transitioning, just think about what they truly what juice them up, what did they love doing? What were their hobbies? And I’m curious, what is your side hobby business?

Jen Kidwell 1:05:29
Oh, um, so I did, I dabbled in some web design for for fun. And also for, you know, for clients. And then also I, I sell some curriculum that I that I written mostly for, for youth groups, and for adult small groups, some there’s sort of an anti racism series, and a couple series that I loved using TED talks to in in ways to kind of bring that in conversation with with Scripture and with the experience of, you know, whatever, whatever the group was. And so I have a handful of those, and that, you know, a bunch of other things, games and other things for mostly around the ministry ministry world.

Victoria Volk 1:06:12
Well, I send that my way, because I would love to include that in the show notes as well, because that could be a resource for people, especially with inclusion and all of that, you know, so I think,

Jen Kidwell 1:06:22
Absolutely, it totally well, and the, and I do, as you mentioned, I am, I am in Maryland, but I do do values, values based coaching for anyone who is feel stuck or overwhelmed in the process and wants some some guidance and interaction to sort of, really ground themselves in, in their, in their values and in their stories of identity to so I do that sort of as a It’s not I don’t, you know, provide legal advice as part of that. But as someone who, who knows the types of questions that would be part of an estate planning journey, in any given state, I offer some of that as well. If that, if that sounds helpful.

Victoria Volk 1:07:04
I love that you brought up the values piece, because I’m a certified Youmap coach. And we through that process, we there’s like four assessments that basically ultimately create what’s called a you map. And it’s basically a map of you, that includes your top five strengths, your values, how you’re wired, and your skill set that you you know, the your most preferred skills, and all of that together creates a U map. But what the U map really does, too, is through the values, it really creates a it’s a pathway for making decisions, right. And I, I hear that, and what you’re saying is that our values really dictate if we tune into that guidance that we have instead, you know, not let it be filtered out through other people’s perceptions, or what we think they think or what they want, or whatever, if we stick to what our values are, and use that as our guide, we can never go wrong in our decisions.

Jen Kidwell 1:07:58
Right? Right, then our story is always ours, right? Because it come out of it has come out of us. And we can we can use those values and those sort of those those words and those phrases as we as we tell our stories, too. I think that’s that’s a big anyway, talk about this forever.

Victoria Volk 1:08:15
But I know where can people find you?

Jen Kidwell 1:08:20
Yeah, so I am at www.marylandlegacylaw.com You can check out some things there. Again, if you’re interested in chatting about some some values based stuff as it relates to estate planning. That information would be on my website. And then if you if you happen to be interested in the in some some ministry resources, or even a book about storytelling, that said, jenkidwell.com, so I’ll send those to you and you can include them if you’d like to.

Victoria Volk 1:08:49
Awesome. And how about on social media?

Jen Kidwell 1:08:52
I am mostly just on Facebook. Just my self. Jen Kidwell. Well, you can you can find me. I have a picture of me with my cute little ones. So if you if you need some some kiddo joy. They are they are on my on my Facebook feed from time to time, primarily where I am.

Victoria Volk 1:09:13
Thank you so much for being here. I think this was a very much needed conversation that I’m glad to have brought to my listeners. So thank you so much for your time today. Great. Thank you for the invitation. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.