Emotions, Grieving Voices Podcast, Healing, Mind/Body Wellness, Pet Loss, Widowhood |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the quiet aftermath of a personal storm, Scott Forrester found solace and strength in the Feldenkrais method. His journey is not just about physical recovery; it’s a poignant narrative of resilience amid life’s harshest trials – loss, grief, and reinvention.
Forrester’s story began with an accident that challenged conventional healing methods. Physical therapy couldn’t mend what was broken within him. Then he realized that our struggles often lie deeper than muscle or bone—nestle in the intricate dance between mind and body.
Through Feldenkrais, Forrester teaches us to listen—to really listen—to our bodies whispers before they become screams. This method isn’t confined to those seeking physical relief; it extends its embrace to anyone yearning for emotional liberation from grief’s heavy chains.
His tale weaves through his own tapestry of loss—of loved ones who have passed on but whose presence still guide him like unseen stars guiding sailors home. He speaks candidly about embracing life as a way to honor those we’ve lost rather than being anchored by their absence.
But this isn’t just a story about coping with sorrow—it’s also one of profound love. Over 50 years married, Forrester learned that marriage thrives on more than promises—it blossoms through unspoken understandings, shared growth, and enduring friendship.
Scott Forrester stands as a testament to living fully—not despite losses—but because of them, transforming pain into purposeful strides forward…into awareness…into hope.
RESOURCES:
Book | The Aware Athlete
The Faldenkrais Method
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CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Unlocking the Healing Power of Movement: The Feldenkrais Method with Scott Forrester
In today’s fast-paced world, we often overlook the deep connection between our physical bodies and emotional health. But what if there was a way to harness this connection to heal both body and soul? Enter the Feldenkrais method—a transformative approach to somatic education that has helped countless individuals improve bodily function and awareness without strain.
A Personal Journey Through Injury to Insight
Our guest at Grieving Voices, Scott Forrester, didn’t just stumble upon the Feldenkrais method; it found him in a time of need. After falling off a roof and facing an unsatisfactory recovery through traditional physical therapy, he embarked on a quest for healing that led him straight to discovering how muscular issues are often deeply intertwined with our nervous system.
Forrester’s revelation—that changing movement patterns could vastly improve overall function—didn’t just apply to his injury recovery. It became clear that these principles were universal, extending their reach into managing grief and emotional trauma as well.
Beyond Physical Therapy: Embracing Life Through Movement
The beauty of the Feldenkrais method lies in its accessibility. It doesn’t matter if you’re an athlete striving for peak performance or someone grappling with neurological challenges—the practice is designed for all who wish to explore their potential through gentle movements and heightened self-awareness.
Scott Forrester’s own journey through grief after losing his mother, beloved dog Stealth, and wife Leanne serves as a poignant testament to these practices’ power. He shares how accepting death isn’t about giving up but rather embracing life more fully—a profound way of honoring those we have lost while continuing our paths forward.
Somatic Wisdom: Listening To Your Body’s Story
When practicing Feldenkrais exercises—whether in group Awareness Through Movement sessions or one-on-one Functional Integration—you embark on an intimate dialogue with your body. This conversation can reveal much about your habitual patterns not only physically but emotionally too.
As Forrester delves into his personal experiences—from adventurous hikes with Stealth to navigating life as a widower—he uncovers lessons learned from love itself. His insights touch upon marriage longevity rooted in communication, understanding, empathy—and most importantly mutual growth beyond individual interests.
From Loss Comes Learning: Writing As Reflection And Connection
Filling days teaching Feldenkrais classes or writing provides structure amid loss for many like Scott Forrester. However, it also opens avenues for new connections—friendships that blossom from shared experiences of grief or simply seeking companionship after significant changes in one’s life narrative.
Marriage requires nurturing akin to tending a garden—it thrives on attention paid not only when convenient but consistently over time. Reflecting on over 50 years together with Lee offers invaluable perspectives on partnership dynamics where unresolved issues might be accepted rather than conquered—an echo of John Gottman’s teachings emphasizing collaboration over conflict resolution alone.
Choosing someone who will walk beside you—in sickness and health—is no trivial decision; values such as family history play roles larger than anticipated initially yet resonate throughout shared lives together.
Aging With Agency: The Philanthropic Method In Action
Discussing philanthropy usually conjures images of generosity toward others—but what about self-care? Actively caring for oneself ensures we remain capable supporters within our communities—as demonstrated by engaging activities like hiking regardless of age milestones looming ahead.
If intrigued by Scott Forrester’s journey or interested in exploring how the Feldenkrais method may enrich your own path towards wellness (both physically & emotionally), consider visiting awareathlete.com where resources abound including access points towards works like “The Aware Athlete.”
Remember—if movement is medicine then let us learn its language fluently so we may converse heartily with every step taken toward healing ourselves wholly!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is you’re listening. Welcome to grieving voices. Today, my guest is Scott Forrester. He is an author, a Felden Price practitioner. Yep. Podcaster, when licensed physical therapist assistant, and I can’t believe if I pronounced that correctly. Is that right?
Scott Forrester: That’s correct. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Is there anything let’s start there. What is a filled in Christ practitioner?
Scott Forrester: Alright. So a filled in Christ practitioner. That’s a form whenever you have a method that gets named after someone, you have to put up with the name. So that is a method of somatic ed education. Pulmonic education, soma refers to the living body. So it’s a form of learning with or through the body. Okay? It’s so I’m actually teaching a class a couple classes a week. It’s taught in two different modes. Awareness removal and is their group class name. And functional integration is the name for the one on one work. It’s the same work, but just done either verbally or verbally and with a hand.
Victoria Volk: Okay. Can you just explain a little bit, like, what it looks like?
Scott Forrester: What it looks like?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. Okay.
Scott Forrester: So in the classes, these particular classes I’ve been doing since January and almost none of the movement lessons have been the same. There is really only one lesson that’s how you move your attention around and within yourself. But so the last the last lesson, we do them on Wednesdays and Fridays. So on Wednesday, we did a lesson. And the the class is really good. The people I had Friday, I knew know how to take care of themselves. So we did a lesson that that involved one person at the end of the lesson, being able to put surprise themselves, being able to put their foot on their head. And we did that with no straining, no stretching. And then so we did that on the on the right side. Then on the left side, we did hardly any movements, and that was even better because we we used a lot of visualization after you know how to do it on one side, then you also know how to visualize it. And then Some of the lessons have involved no movement at all. If you are watching them, we’ve done lessons where you just cover the eyes. And improve your vision because the eyes are doing things while they’re covered. And so there’s a tremendous variety. A lot of the lessons focus on most of most of the ones we’ve been doing are awareness for movement, focusing on awareness. But they have a heavy emphasis on function also. So you end up with a lot of movement surprises.
Victoria Volk: So people unless you’re watching this, you can’t see my face. And so I am, like, A little bit and, you know, kinda turning my head to the side because it’s fascinating to me. I find it fascinating and interesting. And I can tell you, like, because I’m an energy worker. I Uh-huh. Bio field tuning with Jeff or raki master and and all that. And I can tell you just living where I live heavily, like, old German country. Right? Like, I’m, like, the unicorn around here. Like so at least I feel like it. Although Yeah. I know that there’s probably people that are interested in the Wu’s stuff like that. And are kind of in the closet of it too. Right? Like, they’re interested in these things that you can’t really explain
Scott Forrester: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But you have to just experience. And that’s what I’m gathering from you is that this is just something that you have to experience and that before you can really wrap your head around it. Is that
Scott Forrester: it is? It is well, it is. Philadelphia wrote a number of books and so you can’t because he was a scientist, you can, if you understand the book, books, you can absorb his contextual framework. So you could kind of understand it that way. His book, body, and material behavior, he wrote in the forties. And so it has archaic language in it. And if you read the introduction to that and pay attention to that, then you might be able to understand what he’s talking about. Baby.
Victoria Volk: How did you land into this practice?
Scott Forrester: Okay. So this This has made a huge difference in my life. I fell off a roof once. And I only fell seven feet, but it was far enough to break it ankle. Your body weight is seven feet, if you’re not dull lines, man, quite quite right, is still some force. And I eventually had that surgically repaired that was successful. But in the meantime, I had developed a movement pattern with my knee that wouldn’t allow me to run very well any any more. That was about twenty five years ago. So I went to physical therapy and they made it worse. Yeah. I knew they made it worse, so I didn’t go back. And very sincere, nice people. Then I went to another physical therapist who was an ultra runner. He’s about my age, actually. And he had won his age group in the Lenville one hundred more than once. And he was familiar withothelin Christ, but he wasn’t a practitioner, didn’t understand everything about it, but he did apply some some of it. And I had been very interested in the in the method. I I tried to research his online at that course, the in twenty five years, what you can do online is increase dramatically. But So I became very interested in it, and I sensed that, for instance, the first person who made me worse, physical therapy, And I I am a physical therapist assistant. So and I’ve worked in a quite a bit, so I understand it. And and if you wanna get very generalized, every physical therapist is different. But if you wanna really generalize it, strengthen stretch. So if you have a problem, you just have to strengthen the muscles around the area. Well, I already had been relatively at the same time. This is not astounding, but I I was able to deadlift four hundred pounds. So obviously, I was strong enough to run. But the problem was all your movement patterns are not in the muscles. Talk about muscle memory. We understand that, but the memory is not in muscles. It’s in the nervous system. And in the central nervous system, in the brain, that’s where you have your your your movement patterns. That’s where they reside. And you may have even had the experience of forgetting how to do something But as soon as you pick up your hands to do it, you can remember how to do it. Anyway, So that was the first thing. But the real problem was just change your movement pattern a little bit. Now you could do it. I could go into detail about that, but The way we do things, this is profound because it doesn’t just apply to to your body, but the way we do things, the quality of the way we do them. The details of how we do of how we do what we do our makeup profile differs. So this is something that you would have to experience. However, it does have a huge conceptual framework, and you could understand that. The the difficulty with doing it just from the books is you don’t understand the person at first. So you don’t quite understand I could say a sentence. And if you don’t understand the context of what I’d say, words are always always limited. So you always not so you get very little out of it and unless you understand what the person is saying. And he writes in sentences that are paragraph long. So Yes. You could do it either way, but but you do essentially have to experience it. And even in the training, I was myself and others were getting about halfway through it, and we were saying, what if what is this? Eventually, you understand. But it is, you have to experience it. So it became something that with somatic education is making big inroads into therapy too. Felding Christ, didn’t want to. His method is so large as to become unwieldy in in some ways. So you’ve heard the somatic experiencing maybe Peter Levine and there are so many so many techniques and methods that use that. But and so if ethics and ethics can be applied exactly to that. To therapy. The beauty of what he did is that it’s it has great therapeutic yeah, advantages. But some of the some of the the results that you obtain are partly because you don’t focus on the problems, that you don’t focus on therapy. If you have a problem, if you focus on the problem, you have a problem for the rest of your life.
Victoria Volk: Welcome to politics. Right?
Scott Forrester: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Focus on all the problems all the time. And Yeah. Everybody’s always talking about the problems, but there’s Where are we talking about?
Scott Forrester: It applies to everything. So I Yeah. Made a profound difference in in my life and even how I respond to. Everything. In my class, I I’ve had the greatest compliment lately because people are beginning to say, you know, my whole this is influencing and changing my whole life because I approached life in a different way. You could either I don’t know. I often say you could either do what you always do and do what I what I tell you to. Or you could do what’s right for you and and learn how to take care of yourself and how to move from that place.
Victoria Volk: So who who who is this for? Who is a good candidate for?
Scott Forrester: Okay. So if you if you want to advertise it, as you know, you need to well, you probably know the difficulty of advertising what you’re doing in your location. You suggested that Yeah. But if if so if you want to advertise it, you kind of have to appeal to someone. Some particular group because the problem with it is that it can help anybody that you’re familiar with basketball?
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Scott Forrester: So everybody knows Michael Jordan. But just before him was doctor Jay. Julius Irving.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Scott Forrester: Fellow Christ worked with him. Oh, he he worked with ballet dancers. He worked with children with cerebral palsy because you’re working with the nervous system. And So it it really applies to it would apply So a lot of people that think they’re doing fine and are moving through life. Maybe they’re in in the maybe they’re fairly young, thirties and forties, they probably wouldn’t be interested because they think they’re doing fine. They could improve them tremendously. But if you had cerebral palsy, or if you have neurological difficulties or if you were an artist or an athlete and you have some reason that you really want to improve your skill level, the skill level that resides in your nervous system. Then it’s for you. So the problem is it could help anybody.
Victoria Volk: Well, and what I know about emotions and grief and trauma is that these emotions like that these heavy emotions that we our bodies remember. Right? Our bodies hold on to
Scott Forrester: That’s exactly
Victoria Volk: He’s in the nervous system.
Scott Forrester: Right. Right. So you know if you’re doing energy work. Mhmm. There’s nothing. Fell in Christ to him. There was not a mind body connection. They’re exactly the same thing.
Victoria Volk: Oh.
Scott Forrester: So if if you have a that’s a huge difference between saying a healthy mind and a healthy body. So if what you were saying, everything that happens to us is hell in the body. Well, that’s because it’s Also, all held in the emotions and in the mind. It is held it tells everywhere in the person. Mhmm. So Franklin Christ did feel that working with the with movement was the fastest way to access the entire person. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: There’s a question that’s kinda noodling at me. And so I’m gonna ask, is this, like, similar to like, Thai chis, like chigong, like those types of practices?
Scott Forrester: Yes and no.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Scott Forrester: It was very similar in in that it, you know, it it emphasizes the mind mindfulness the same way.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Scott Forrester: It’s very dissimilar in that in Chaiti, you learn a formula and you can improve and improve and improve and improve and prove in that form. Falcon Christ had hundreds. There’s even literally thousands of blessings. Over a thousand. So you come into the class. If you understand that you’re doing the same lesson every time, but it has a different flavor, would you like to improve your eyesight? Would you like to improve your balance, whatever? It was it’s heavily it’s unique and that it’s heavily oriented towards function, but also in that every time you come in, you’ll be doing something non habitual.
Victoria Volk: I have a question. Have you seen people with conditions? Maybe even rare that have seen improvements in their condition using this method.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. Yes, you have. I’ve worked with people who had late stage cerebral palsy and and so on. So yes.
Victoria Volk: Or near blindedness.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. So I think it’s David Webber that develops filled in Christ knew everything in his side. He knew all the all the scientists, and he was a black belt at Juno, so he understood martial arts, and he even understood them to the extent that he wrote a book on the Physics of Juno. So okay. So I lost my check. What was the question again?
Victoria Volk: Vision. Near blind.
Scott Forrester: Vision. Yeah. So that means he knew a number of things about vision. I think it was stated whether that’s developed a lot of exercises there. And they’re I can’t remember the source, but there’s a case study on a person who was legally blind. And he decided to do these eye exercises. And he was prescribed, you know, you should you should do them an hour, maybe even two hours a day. He did him thirteen hours a day. And he went from legally blind to perfectly acceptable vision.
Victoria Volk: I just got goosebumps.
Scott Forrester: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: I am just fascinated with this falling Christ’s guy. So
Scott Forrester: He had completely destroyed knees. And he was born in nineteen o four, lived till nineteen eighty four. So back when he did that as a twenty year old, they didn’t have the knee surgery we do now. But he figured out how to rehabilitate the function of the knees enough that he could practice you. Which Mhmm. With with no meniscus and no legacies. Pretty astoundingly.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You would go to a physician, maybe, like, that’s impossible. Don’t do that. You’ll just hurt yourself further, you know?
Scott Forrester: Yeah. He was he was cognitively and physically in the body, very aware of what he couldn’t couldn’t and couldn’t do. You know what? He could move fine if he moved in certain ways, which we can, and not fine if he moved in other ways. He had to he had to move within the stability of what he could do, but he understood that and felt that.
Victoria Volk: It’s almost like connecting with the energy within the body to understand it and manipulate it where it can be manipulated, but then almost surrender to it where it can’t be.
Scott Forrester: Yes.
Victoria Volk: That’s a good question.
Scott Forrester: That’s very understandable. That’s very profound. If I I’ll probably butcher the quote, but Find your greatest weakness and surrender to it. Mhmm. He said most people spend all their life either covering up their weaknesses or trying to improve them. Sent those that surrendered to their weaknesses are rare. And he said they actually lead every generation. So obviously, you can understand why he would say that. He has no knees. No functional knees. But in surrendering to that, he found what he could do. He found his whole person. So that applies really to everything.
Victoria Volk: Well, I’m gonna have to look into this guy. He sounds like a true trailblazer in Renegade for his time And
Scott Forrester: He was a pioneer in neuroplasticity when that term wasn’t even used. And there was a brain researcher, Aileen Bakirida, I think, came to some of his classes. Her husband, Paul, Aker Reed Award, won a Nobel Prize in the I believe he won a Nobel Prize in Nobel Prize in Nobel Plastic Research. I think he was the man who took a blind man and hooked sensors to his tongue and hooked that up to a camera. And the man could see. Yeah. He’s done that with us. He he proves a lot of things, sensory substitution that way. You’ve done it done it with a person with a very poor vestibular system. And and he put a helmet on the head so that he could I don’t think he may have used the camera there too. I’m not sure. But then then the in fact, in that case, the person eventually didn’t need the device. Because the brain had been trained to be able to stand in. So
Victoria Volk: Well, listen.
Scott Forrester: So anyway, when when his wife came to the classes, she said, you are able to do more here practically. And our research is allowing us to do in the lab.
Victoria Volk: Well, this is fascinating. And I do want to get to your grief story
Scott Forrester: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: But so I’m sorry I kind of derailed the conversation in my curiosity. But I think it really is a good context into how it changed your life because you’ve got a lot of grief experiences and a lot of loss
Scott Forrester: Oh, in one year. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You were already practicing this, I imagine, for years. Yes.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. Yeah. It made made a big difference to my wife and I. I was finishing PTA school, and I ran by a laundromat where my wife was doing the clothes. And we I had thought about doing this, but it was very expensive In terms of you have to not work for seven weeks a year, you have to find a place to live in another city for that long. Then you have to come up with a tuition and and it takes four years, so it’s quite a commitment. And but there was no training offered near us. So I kinda shut down.
Victoria Volk: You’re talking about the folding price?
Scott Forrester: Yes. And so I I stopped in to see my wife, and she pulls out an ad paper. In the line of math there. And there wasn’t there was a train that’s gonna start up within a reasonable distance. And she said, you have to do this. And as difficult as it was, her that was her attitude clear through the training. So it did make a difference with this.
Victoria Volk: So tell us about your what followed?
Scott Forrester: So I I Our training started in twenty ten, finished in twenty fourteen, so it was much later in In twenty twenty two, in August, we celebrated our fiftieth anniversary. And we came back. So in September, it was, you know, it’s almost twenty twenty three. And two weeks or so after we got back. Yeah. I she had I worked in physical therapy and she had a very tight calf. And I said, you need to go to the doctor right now. So she did and she had a blood clot, but and and it was removed. A lot forty five centimeters. And in the meantime, at at the same time that they, you know, did a scan for the blood clot, they did scan at the aggregate and the physician came back and said, you have stage forecast for her. And So early in twenty twenty three, she began chemotherapy.
Victoria Volk: And
Scott Forrester: she after about three treatments, she had a clean scan. So we were We were happy about that, but it was in the lymph system that it came roaring back. And after three treatments has sensitive as she was to that. She they couldn’t give her anymore because her white blood cell count was way too low. And eventually, they she tried radiation and another form of chemo that was probably not as effective. But, anyway, so my dog whom was not only a family member, I almost got a telepathic relationship with him. The only dog I’d ever had, I got over at sixty. You know what I mean? And he was very important to both my wife and myself. I won’t go into downward, but he died in August. And we’re both here for his last last day. Well, I didn’t say that my mother died January. She was ninety nine, so it was expected. She was very highly functional until the last couple months of life. So my mother died in January, my dog. My wife and I both sat there for his last day, and he was kind of a pioneer for us because he lived his he lived his life every day. And he had wait. He’d had a couple surgeries and they couldn’t do any more for him. And their mask came back on his mouth and other places. And I was building my son’s house down in Chris’ Valley, and it was hot out there. And so I left him with my wife for a few days. And I came back. And she said, yeah. You’ve gotta take him with you. He’s more of us here. So as high as it was, is uncomfortable for for him as it was. He wanted to be out there with me. And, anyway, in in August, he could no longer he he reached the day where his fever came back and and he couldn’t get up. He could barely walk, and he just wanted to sit and look. And he couldn’t get in the car anymore. And he never liked me to pick him up unless he was really weak. And but he was afraid to get in the car because he tried it a couple of times and couldn’t couldn’t make the jump anymore. So I picked him up. He was finishing and he scratched me. Yeah. But once he was in the car, it was fine. And then when he got out of the when we reached the vet, he likes vet because they’ve always helped him. So he hopped down the car and walked in on his own. And then they took him into the bathroom and put it IV in his in his, like, and he was fine with that. He he done it before and then and he and then Dave would do something, you know, do a surgery. He’d come back and be fine. So he was fine with that. He walked in on his own, walked to the waiting room where my wife and I sat with him. And laid down because that’s all I could do. Energy was gone. And then they gave the the shot that you know, slug him down, and they gave him another shot that stopped his heart, but it is extremely peaceful. And so that was a role model for my wife and I. She actually she actually lived a year after the diagnosis. She she made it through September of twenty twenty three. And and passed in in the very first hours of October first. My wife had gone through quite a bit of trauma. And my mom died when she was nine, dad’s bad enough, but her dad was an alcoholic. And so he married another alcoholic. And so her stepmother hated her and and hated her father because she was a terrific alcoholic and didn’t know how to love anybody. Yeah. So she grew up with first the loss of her mother and then people saying, you know, you you gotta be strong for your father. Right? Yeah. That’s backwards. That’s so and through your early teenage years and and later teenage years, you hope. In a family that’s not your family. So she grew up highly sensitive doing due to needing to know every night. Her father was a stable alcoholic. He held a job. But you need to know what Moody’s coming home in every every night. Mhmm. And so she actually suffered from depression quite a bit. And then that last year, she was never depressed. We were both really accepting of death, which is a good place to be because in our culture, we just kinda put it off into a corner. I’ll deal with that in fifteen years. Mhmm. It really could enhance life. To understand it. Anyway, so she would she never had time for that and was never depressed. And she lived every single day Even when she was getting weaker, she got up and did something that was life every day. And that was true for her last day. My son visited and he brought pictures from the grandkids, and she held a nice video call with them. She was fully into that call. And, no, ma’am. I didn’t know. She didn’t know. That was her last day. She was magnificent. And she’s my hero. She did not want to spend one minute in a facility, and she didn’t And and the timing was the whole thing was amazing because I spent a little bit of extra money to have some help. To finish to finish John’s house. And I couldn’t be in two places at once, but when I got it finished, that’s when she really needed vehicle. So it’s a huge it’s it’s a bigger thing than you think. But, you know, in the first week, when you lose somebody that closely, you’re holding their hands when they take their last breath, which was beautiful. But when you do that, a presence tends to be really strong, especially for the first week or two. And I got up one morning, he’s walking down the hall, and I It’s a knowing. I related to hearing your voice. She said, I will always be with you, Scott. Not too much later. I was sitting down at the breakfast table and I said, how was it with you? What are you arguing? She said, Sky is so beautiful. So wonderful. Wonderful. Actually, the word, whether anybody thinks that’s a voice or not, some people understand some it’s a great truth because it says that life is sacred. The right way to grieve is to remember someone as your hero and embrace life. You know, you could think and it’s reasonable to think that the right way to agree with us to be unhappy. But counter intuitively, it’s not the the loss is bigger than you think. Because if you’re orientated correctly and you live day by day, you think you can deal with it. But you find there’s more layers to it because she wanted to be a lie a wife that was actually her goal. It’s not everybody’s goal. Wife, a mother, and a grandmother. And she did that her entire life. I matter when she was maybe eighteen. We spent a lot of time together when she was nineteen. She was married when we were twenty. So her entire lifer, she did that. And that’s all I did or don’t either. You live day by day or do it fine. And then you find out the the loss in the hole is bigger and you thought and you find yourself, you know, searching for something to fill that. So I recently hadn’t aware of this. That you have to relate to the past in a certain way. If you relate to the past as the beautiful blessings that you had, the fun times you had, or as the things that weren’t right but what you learned from them. You’re on you’re on a good path. As soon as you say, as soon as you begin to grasp and say, I wish I had that back. It brings you down, like, falling off a building. So never go there. The first time I had that realization, it was kinda like oh, that’s a good realization. I understand that. I see that. The second time I was, like, I’m never going there again. Then I understand. It was beautiful, but I I still am in touch with her. But after seven months, you have to be very quiet and just I could still ask for questions and feel and answer, but So I felt in Christ this thing about that was the beginning of really developing some awareness within yourself. You can use a method to improve your function, or as you were talking about, you can move that use that method to actually notice exactly how you are functioning. There are places that you can go to as a method that improve your your sense of yourself, your standing, your connection with the ground, just how you feel it in in an overall way. You talk about posture. There’s there’s some ideas about posture and the method. But there’s a certain way of standing in which you’re totally comfortable. And I couldn’t quite go there. I thought that we had experienced a whole year of both joy and grief together, and I realized that there was even another level that we could have experience. So you can tell that in your body, you’re not quite ready to go to that place. After you’ve experienced it and know what it is. And then later you are. Yeah. The whole idea of self and self awareness has been expanding. You know, throughout these entire last ten years.
Victoria Volk: What’s your wife’s name?
Scott Forrester: Namely. But her name was always Leanne and was her Italy.
Victoria Volk: And your dog?
Scott Forrester: Stealth.
Victoria Volk: What time was he hold? Was he?
Scott Forrester: He was a lab shepherd mix, and he didn’t quite make thirteen years. He if I had a dog now, I would have known their limits, but he’s a very strong, strong dog. So I felt like he could do anything I could do. So when he was about five, I took him on a hike through the desert from Walker Pass to Kennedy Meadows. Mhmm. I was lost one day too. So we were probably out there by sixty miles. And, yeah, he was totally exhausted when we got done. He couldn’t even walk very far. I mean, we’d really get through it out there. And my wife picked him up and, you know, picked us up. Actually, Actually, she I was a kennady medalist store, and she was up to the campground. I didn’t know that. And I I couldn’t get in touch with her cell phones for her working. And eventually, I had somebody I could have walked up there. But still is good. So I’m gonna leave him with the campground. I I was gonna leave him with the campground manager, but it said he took us up there. That’s how tired stealth was as strong and tough as he was carrying his backpack and and always leading the way. And I’ve taken him on hikes through the wind river range in Wyoming. And Well, one one day we did from Snora Pass to Echo Pass or whatever it was in the Sierra. And we did thirty one miles in one day. The last part of it, it was actually getting dark. So you’re walking up the steepest part of it to ten thousand five hundred feet. The rock is part of it. And you can’t see the trail. So every time you go to a rocky spot, you can’t find the trail. Because now you have to negotiate out of this Rocky area. Which way did it go? My GPS did that for us. But it took a minute to find the trail each time we were crossing streams at night twenty hours and he was right up right here. I had no estimate for a vehicle. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. We did some big adventures together. And then finally, he got to the place where I wouldn’t do that with him anymore. It it didn’t have quite the stamina for it. It was too dangerous for him.
Victoria Volk: So growing up, had you had any loss experiences? And and how did how did what did you learn about grief growing up?
Scott Forrester: Okay. So basically, no. I mean, we’re We’re it was pretty isolated from everything. But I both of my grandmothers did die. We weren’t there for it. You know, further passing or anything. We they both had funerals. And then that was way back in my childhood. The first one, my my dad’s mother. The second one was was actually actually after I got married, and she was way up in her nineties. And she passed the way she wanted to. So those are significant. But then my father died when I was I think I was young, but I was forty three. So it’s not a childhood loss. But that one was in such great contrast to to my wife later thirty years later because that one I couldn’t accept it.
And I couldn’t even say that my father had died. I couldn’t use that word. He was so strong. And you know, to a kid he seemed invulnerable and then he had Parkinson’s disease in every a piece at a time what he could do. Went away. I couldn’t even say Parkinson’s for years. And, you know, five years later, I could I had trouble accepting it. And for thirty years, he’s always been there. With me. That was a completely different experience.
Victoria Volk: I noticed you didn’t even mention that in what as one of your losses.
Scott Forrester: No. I I was pretty much focusing on on what happened within the space of the year as pretty dramatic. And I think my wife knew she knew how much she meant to me. Even more than I knew how much I meant to her. She knew what what it would be like. And I think she guided me through a lot of it. But, yeah, there’s a thirty year difference between those two and in the intensity of you losing three, actually four. In one year because I I’m by myself, so I adopted another dog. And my son said, that he would help with it. But in reality, it turned out he couldn’t. And so I found that I couldn’t really take care of but I kept him long enough. He was potty trained, and I kept him long enough that we found a really good home for it.
Victoria Volk: Why do you think you couldn’t take care of him?
Scott Forrester: Because I did what I usually what I wanted to do was get a dog who is full of energy. And so he was like a border collie, and he was only about seven months old. I could take care of him. But if I did, that if I were retired and didn’t have anything to do, I could take care of because it took the entire day. I had to take him for a life.
If I took him to run for two hours, he’d go quite okay kind of for one day. But I couldn’t do that every day. So I had to take him for, like, five walks a day. And and I had to keep an e eagle eye on him to make sure that the project training was holding, and I had to do all kinds of things like that. So I could have taken care of, but I wouldn’t have any relationship with people outside the home. You know, drive to bed there. So it was either the dog and you and you stay in the house with a dog for the rest of your life or, you know, you can you can work with other people.
Victoria Volk: Is there a part of you that feels it was maybe just too soon?
Scott Forrester: To seem to get the dog? No. I just I just couldn’t. I don’t I don’t have a fancy yard. And I don’t have anybody having your wife at home that can watch them while you go to work and while you do something.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. That’s yeah.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. I couldn’t I just didn’t have the ability to do it.
Victoria Volk: So earlier you mentioned you just kind of made a statement about trying to fill the void. I that those weren’t your words, but to that effect, trying to fill the space and time and
Scott Forrester: Not not so much the time. I’ve been pretty busy with with the space.
Victoria Volk: I’m actually trying to keep busy. I suppose is maybe the good a good way to say it. Like, you’ve been trying to keep busy. Is
Scott Forrester: that No. No. I’m just no. It’s easy for me to keep busy. I I have things that I wanna write a book. I’ve read written a couple of books. I wanna write a book. About this. I think there’s some useful things in it. And at least there’s some at least your story needs to be told.
Victoria Volk: What were some of the things though that you found that you have found yourself doing since your wife passed away that Oh. Are out of character lead.
Scott Forrester: Well, she loved to cook, and I had no interest in it. So I I don’t know how to cook. So now you have to take that up, and she gave me some hits before she passed, and I’ve been feeding myself quite well. But so now you have to do that. And you find out that it took a lot more time to do some of the things that you thought. So now I’m it’s only me here, so it’s not a big deal, but I’m cleaning the house. I’m teaching my classes. I am I want to write that book. Trying to find time for that. Eventually switching over the cell phone, you wouldn’t believe how much trouble that was. I keep sending you the bills for the person who’s not there anymore in front of the plan and switching insurance and say doing all the paperwork and she paid the bills, so I had to figure out what she was doing there. And then my son needs help. I have two sons. One’s an engineer in Arizona. The other one is not this ability. And he needs some help. Although, I’m proud of him. He’s needing a little bit less as things go. But so I had to figure out his finances and that was and we have to make trips down to Social Security, and then that does get you know, you have too bad. I was totally busy with that stuff for a long time. So during the during these classes, I put quite a bit of work into you’re doing two a week and I’ve I’ve actually kept them so I don’t do the same class every week every twice a week. I could. But so I put quite a bit. Excuse me. I didn’t. I can’t think. I’ve been doing so many things. I can’t I can’t really
Victoria Volk: do you feel like now, like, the dust is settled a little bit? You’ve gotten a lot of that administrative stuff that, obviously, when some when your spouse passes, there’s so much paperwork and you’d kinda hit on that a little bit. Do you feel like now is when you you finally maybe have time to, like, sit with how you’re feeling and sit with your grief and kind of maybe just now being able to do that? Yeah.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. It’s getting a little bit more like that. So something that’s, excuse me, have been crying. I mean, crying a little bit.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. I wanna get back to the right. See, I still my time will be filled. I I if I have enough time, I would like to get back into painting. But something that takes a good chunk out of my day every day is that, you know, I have to get outside I have to do.
I have a friend that finished a hundred mile race not too long ago, and it was one with a big cut off. And so I get together with her and we’ll do eight, ten, twelve miles. And, you know, you know, we’ll go up we We did Smith rock the loop around that the other day for about eight miles, and it has something in it. They called Missy Ridge, which is just a big steep climb. And then we can jog back down a lot. But every day, so I want to spend if I’m really busy, I only get outside for half an hour. But I I like to spend an hour or two every day and, you know, to start the day doing something that’s movement or exercise. And I do a lot of movement preparing for the lessons. But see there’s that is so important to me that I make time for it. So there’s an if you if you go outside and do heart rate training for two hours, it takes more than that. You had to make sure you had to do whatever things are necessary to prepare for it. Then you’re a little bit more tired, sometimes even requiring a nap. So that’s a foundation to my day. Because if I do live to ninety or ninety five or my like my mother about a hundred, I wanna be fully functional at that age. So
Victoria Volk: Don’t we all?
Scott Forrester: I don’t have any trouble being being busy. But, yes, the other day, I was able to sit down in the sun, and there’s been a I mean, seven days a week, I’m busy. I’ll go out and see my son Christmas valley here. But I have had a couple times where it’s been very wonderful to sit outside and just reflect. In terms of filling the void, it’s a it’s a little embarrassing. But I found myself. So I I didn’t want to just put myself in a closet, turn the light out. So I found myself reaching out in a lot of different ways and making trying to make new connections, which I have. And that’s good. I found myself making new friends on Facebook and trying to find people that live in the area. And it was not obvious to me. Believe it or not that I was searching for somebody to fill that gap. And because it’s not what I was doing, but it was. It’s not what I was doing, but it was in there. It’s all I’ve ever known. So you’re I talked about a habit that’s in the body and an entire person. Yeah. I I went to the store the other day. This has been a little while ago. All of a sudden, that became kind of clear that happened in that in that looking error. And I actually kinda cried because isn’t that obvious that you would do that? Right? It wasn’t completely obvious. It became obvious. So I’ve I I think I’ve kind of indicated that all my friends are twenty years younger. Not all my friends, but but my close friends, Laura is twenty years younger, but a friend that may visit that I used to run with in Cheyenne. He’s twenty years younger. My friend Carlos, and his and his partner, Monica, are twenty years younger. Somebody I did go to visit some people at at the senior center the other day on invitation. And I like the people great. But I couldn’t go there again.
Victoria Volk: Well, I think what I mean, just based on how physically active you are, Yeah. And your background knowledge and stuff, is it accurate to say that you are a bit of a unicorn in the population of your peers?
Scott Forrester: I guess so. I mean
Victoria Volk: And that I
Scott Forrester: don’t think there are
Victoria Volk: other people are is not where you are.
Scott Forrester: They don’t do that some of these things that I do.
Victoria Volk: Exactly. And
Scott Forrester: so I love to talk to.
Victoria Volk: It’s how do we improve our lives, how do we better ourselves, it’s by surrounding ourselves with people who are doing what we who are where we want to be. Right? Yeah.
Scott Forrester: Right.
Victoria Volk: Where we’re at? Does was your wife very active with you as well?
Scott Forrester: No. She was always physically weaker than I was on it. She on her honeymoon, we hike eight miles in and eight miles back to the old mill the crystal mill in Colorado. And on the way out, I care I used to carry her backpack. She was only twenty, but she supported me.
Victoria Volk: And that’s what I was gonna say too is, but she never took that she allowed you to be you fully you?
Scott Forrester: She did. She supported me so much. In fact, there was a time when I I get lost all the time. She was a navigator. But I do have some sense about where I am when I’m when I’m outside.
Mhmm. And but I had no experience to do this, and I was backing very light. And by the time I just lost a couple days.
Victoria Volk: A couple days?
Scott Forrester: Anyway, I I just lost a lot out there. And Let’s see. So it was between fifteen and twenty years ago that I decided I was going to be in the wind river range and go from Green River lakes campground to Big Sandy, which has totally changed now. And they were keeping it kind of wilderness, so they weren’t a lot of sides out there. So you can imagine that was, you know, maybe seventy eight miles or something.
It turned out to be more than that for me. I didn’t know if I didn’t receive it again because what happened was An hour in, I dropped my GPS at the stream, and it was supposed to be waterproof, but it dropped it to a deep part of the stream. And It took me a lot of fishing out there. It worked. It was full of water. It worked well enough for me to find the trail one time. And then it never worked yet. So I’m out there with no GPS. I did have good maps in a compass. And I thought maybe I should go back. And then I thought, well, I might never have the opportunity to do this again, so I’ll go a little farther.
Victoria Volk: Man, you got gumption.
Scott Forrester: So I I know she would be at the campground for a better hour or so, I mean, probably that day. So I could have gone back, but I didn’t. And five days later, I walked out and I’d lost so much weight that she didn’t recognize me. I made a statement.
Victoria Volk: You ran you ran out of food, I take it.
Scott Forrester: I still had two or three hundred calories left, but I had
Victoria Volk: Futch hell from her when you finally met up with her.
Scott Forrester: Well, when I yeah. When I approached enough to talk, you know, but because I was walking towards her, I’m wearing the same clothes, but she didn’t recognize me. And I’m I’m but anyway, that night before the seasons were changing in the melons. I had a one pound sleeping bag. And It was getting too cold. I tried to get out of the wind because I didn’t have a tent. I brought my rain poncho that I strung up over myself, which actually protected me from the rain, but not the wind. And last night, I tried to hike the ice boulders there. My bag wasn’t doing it. I was I was shivering through the night. My my shoes were icy and frosty. In the next morning when I put them on. So I I wasn’t I was thinking, you know, if it gets more be more than shivery, I’m gonna have to get up and start doing jumping checks or something. Anyway, we made it through the night. But that night, I was I was sitting up and I felt her beside me. And I said, she’s here. No. She’s not here. I kept going back and forth before I she’s not here, but she is. And when I the next day, It took me four hours to find the trail. It went through a rocky area, and Anyway, so when I got out, she told me that she had taken, and this is not something she did all the time. She had taken my wallet and held it held it closer to her to her heart and projected herself out. Out beside me. She knew she knew that it was getting it was getting cold where she was. So she knew. So she wasn’t very active, but she she supported me in so many ways.
Victoria Volk: So you could have died. Were you not were you not fearful? Were you not? Like, what was going through your mind?
Scott Forrester: Their last day, I had let myself get dehydrated or and and the lack of food, which you know, you can go coin ways without food. I I knew that, but I didn’t know it in my body yet. In five days, it’s enough to get hungry if you’re not used to what you’re doing, not prepared. Right?
Victoria Volk: Well, when you start hallucinating?
Scott Forrester: I wasn’t to that point, but I was to the point where I didn’t have any extra energy to think to to think about worrying. Mhmm. So I was I was just pretty pretty steady to just kinda do what you go back, come back. I make it or I, you know, I find it or I don’t. You do get to the place where you’re at where you say, oh, somebody help me.
But, yeah, I found the trail. And once I did, I was up to three or four miles an hour again.
Victoria Volk: What I’m hearing in this story is it is a a metaphor for grief. Right?
Scott Forrester: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: We’re you can feel so lost. Like, can you see the parallels of getting lost?
Scott Forrester: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: Not knowing where the trail is, not like losing your path, losing your self identity?
Scott Forrester: I did lose my identity. I’ve been a husband all my wife, life. And she was my everything, and she said to me before she passed. She said she said, yeah. We both wanted her to go first because I wanted to take care of her. That’s always been the case. She was weaker physically. And Yeah. She said you you were in my rock. So you you lose that identity. It’s gone. She no longer needs my help. You’re right. And then it’s every day at a one day at a time, and so you learn and you learn new things. It is a metaphor for them. I could.
Victoria Volk: I see a book along those lines.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. I I really would like to say some things that I think will help other people because I’d like to tell her story. So you know that all my friends are twenty years younger. And I’m not I wasn’t looking for anybody. But I found somebody who I knew I could I knew it was worth with, but I’m I’m not gonna tell you the whole story.
It’s just too funny. But I so this person was actually twenty nine years younger.
Victoria Volk: Okay. So
Scott Forrester: I went way out of him and and asked her to marry me knowing that. Very likely he was gonna say no. So she did say no. So anyway, I wasn’t looking for it then, and I’m really not today either. But that that all is there. It’s a good thing because it’s what I’ve really needed. I recently talked about the difference between being alone and being lonely. Mhmm. If you’re if you’ve never done it before and you’re forced to be alone, you have to learn some things you’ve never learned before. And it’s exactly what you need.
So that’s my story. For the pilot.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing.
Scott Forrester: Thank you. Thank you for being a great host.
Victoria Volk: I would ask you what your grief has taught you, but I feel like you’ve fully answered that question. Do you feel like you’ve answered that question?
Scott Forrester: I have. But in looking over her wonderful marriage, and it was. I saw I saw in retrospect, I saw areas where I really wish I’d been more for and then I got carried away with that to the point where, you know, boy. You could look back and and and say, I was so selfish in in some marriage. When you’re you’re twenty years old and you get married, you don’t know We just had dumb kid. So you asked everything you learned in life. Everything we learned, we learned together. And so you you can get you can kinda get out of focus on that. Yes. I do wish I’d done some things even more for, but you can’t say, I wish I’d known fifty years ago what I know now because it’s impossible.
It’s so it’s always a very beautiful thing and then I I for a while, I got so carried away with. Which I I do acknowledge and I do want to bring into life and other people’s lives. What I learned there how much how much freedom is encouragement that you want to give the woman your a r I two? So that’s there. And I’m working with that. But for a while, it overshadowed what was something that was really beautiful even though it was very imperfect because it could not have been anything else. So, yeah, that’s another lesson.
Victoria Volk: So what his love taught you?
Scott Forrester: What his love taught me? Yeah. I understand the commitment. I understand what it takes it takes a whole lifetime to build that kind of a relationship. The amount of comfort that we had with each other, the we really were one person.
And she has she has guided me through all of this. And love love has taught me, you know, look look at the love, don’t and look at whatever lessons you can learn, but But don’t forget that there was something there that was beyond anything that was done. It’s you can’t encapsulate it all in one mistake or one love is something that goes beyond. It’s more than the sum of the parts. The whole of the whole relationship if it works in the marriage is more than the sum of parts. It works better than it should. It can work better than it should.
Victoria Volk: And what do you think is the key to it working? For fifty years?
Scott Forrester: So I don’t wanna be too tried, but we we were careful to be committed to that idea at the start. I’ve been kind of astounded if I look back, I see. I guess, you know, there were places where it could not have worked. And then I’ve been kind of astounded when I’m getting a better view of what marriage is for people overall. And and there are a lot of divorces. Yeah. So I’ve been kind of astounded by that. It’s so logical that it wouldn’t work. So I I really have gained no understanding of that. From a perspective of what? You know? Because okay. So a couple of other things that I know even when in my wife’s journal that she said I could read shows up is that commitment’s not enough. If you don’t know how to make the relationship work, commitment is not enough because you’re committed to something that doesn’t work. So then the thing of communication is really essential. And you should develop the skill of nonviolent communication. Of being able to communicate without blaming. But even but we always communicated but we didn’t even know that skill sometimes. The person that can hurt you most in the world is your spouse. And if you have not shed a lot of your ego, everybody wants to be hurt and everybody wants to be loved. And if you have a very strong egoistic way of doing things, which we all do, then somebody gets hurt, and then they say, but you did this, that as a matter of self defense. There’s various ways that can happen. I just listened yeah. You’ve been very patient. I just just listened to an interview with I think his name is John Cotton. And he was saying that after all the studies he’s done, you could predict whether a couple would stay together in as little as fifteen minutes with eighty five or ninety percent accuracy. Because we talked about the fellow Christ method that it’s the quality of what you do dictates what you learn, not the quantity. So you can do a lot of quantity and you end up with neck pain or or hurt because you’re doing the same thing the same way and you and you increase the intensity, but you’re using the same habit. So because of the quality of couples interaction, they can tell just a short period of interaction would typify the quality of what you’re doing. So do you do you still enroll? You don’t even listen and they know you’re not listening. So they upped the volume. I mean, do you do that or or do you even when you hurt one another, are you really seeking for something really knowing It’s not even compromise. There’s some truth somewhere. And are you really pursuing this? Which we did as a friendship? Or are you trying to be right? And those those little things and you can eventually to be learn to communicate much better. But then So that brings you to the other thing and you can’t up your what’s the quality of your communication in the first place? Are you trying to be right or and that comes you know, you have to learn that because that comes through. But but the friend aspect of it, you know, is that the most important thing? And like I say, in beyond compromise, are you looking for something together? I we weren’t great at it. Just I mean, and and and listening with a high degree of awareness. If you bring complete awareness, complete observation to that in a non bias, non passionate way, then you are you are observing your own self in my con. You are observing your wife’s body language. You are observing her words. You are observing hell around. She holds your head, and and you are seeing the meaning behind it. And if you don’t, you ask that’s a high level of communication. And we didn’t always have that, but we we did have this basic belief in. What we were doing. So you need that communication and then you need that continued growth. That self growth. If you don’t have that, that’s a well, that’s a hard place too. But but if you have that friendship aspect, if that’s really what you’re what you’re after, you you can keep going. I mean, you you’ll probably make it. What what was very interesting? And John Gottman’s speech I was listening to was he said, most married problems don’t they don’t ever get accepted or changed. Resolved, but they get accepted. So the friendship, the aesthetics really what determines it all. If you want to go farther, you can. And and you show that it might be dangerous not to.
Victoria Volk: Well, that’s the foundation. Right?
Scott Forrester: Yeah. But that’s the foundation. Mhmm. You can learn better communication skills and you can learn learn not to to put that ego first and you can learn to do that. And then something that you should have learned that is it’s becoming more a possibility in a in a country you can learn. We throw the word partner around. It’s a good work. But it loses some of its meaning if you throw it around too much. Like so to add to that, you can say, you collaborate with your wife or your colleagues or and then you can go back to use the word partner with a different meaning. As equals.
Victoria Volk: I had a conversation yesterday with a minister. Mhmm. He said the most important decision you will ever make in your life is the person you choose to spend your life with.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. Liam was eternally kind. That was so important. So Yeah. You’re you’re right.
That is and so you should be a little nervous about it. And take your time. I actually I asked, actually, after before he got married, we were a kid. I said, what makes you think you can stay better?
Victoria Volk: What’d she say?
Scott Forrester: She told me, you know, she’d never experienced. Divorce in her family. Her mother was always there. Even her father was there. Even though her father invited to a horrible marriage, he never left his wife. And then I thought that was a pretty good answer.
Victoria Volk: What is it that you would like to scream to the world? You were on a long hike and you were out in the mountains and you’re at the top of the mountain, what would you scream?
Scott Forrester: Well, in a book, I would like to scream, scream, her her story. It’s amazing. Overall, I would I would just I would just like people to know how how great marriage could be even though it’s it’s a process to see through. It’s not great every day. It can become great every day, but that’s a that’s a long story. I would like them to see how wonderful it could be. I would like to I would like them to see two things. One, the beauty of how how much my wife or a woman can give, and then I would like them to see the wonder of what the husband how he can lay himself aside. That I’m I’m not talking about wear yourself doing a wear yourself out doing everything for for your old wife, but you give your entire heart to to her elevation. Those two aspects. I mean, what she gave is astounding. And it’s hard to put it into words. But I would like I would like so I would like overall people to know, you know, what what marriage could be. How you could get there. What a wife really? What a gift a wife could be? And And I think there needs to be more a lot more knowledge of of how a husband needs to function in terms of putting his eagle down and and any leadership comes from my my entire heart is in elevating my partner. I yeah. So the the beauty of the whole thing, I can I cannot overappreciate the gift that she gave? Her entire life.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. Is there anything else that you would like to share that you didn’t get to?
Scott Forrester: No. I just appreciate the opportunity to talk about even. I I guess Yeah. The fact that I can still I can still ask her questions and I feel a response just in the smile or It is it’s never it’s not really a loss. I only lost the physical things.
Anyway, I I thank you very much for the chance to share all that even some of the most embarrassing things.
Victoria Volk: It was my pleasure to have this conversation with you, and thank you for describing this new Well, it’s not new, but this the method.
Scott Forrester: Oh, the the film price method if you
Victoria Volk: Yeah.
Scott Forrester: If you didn’t any help understanding that get in touch with me.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So thank you for bringing that to my awareness, to my audience who Yeah. I mean, there’s so many neurological issues out there. And as we talked about grief and emotions and how they get held in the body and I see that it’s something that could be very beneficial for everyone just as you shared and It’s obviously been helpful for you in navigating your grief and bringing a sense of awareness to your body and being within the body and Okay. Has allowed you to live an exceptional physical life.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. Without that, I wouldn’t be doing some of the things I’m doing right now.
Victoria Volk: And isn’t that the whole goal of I think all of us, you know, I’m forty five. I’m thinking, oh my gosh, I’m gonna be fifty. And you’re thinking, oh my gosh, I wish I could be fifty. Maybe, you know. But that’s the goal. Right? To get to as we get older, it’s not to view it as a death sentence or slow progression of debilitation and weakness and all of these things. And so I try and take care of myself so that truthfully. I can probably take care of my husband because I feel like I’m the stronger of us too, you know.
Scott Forrester: Really? Yeah. Yeah. I can still lift my wife. It’s That’s incredible.
Absolutely. That’s we wanna live our best life and we we don’t wanna accept unnecessary rehabilitation.
Victoria Volk: And that’s the key unnecessary. Right?
Scott Forrester: And so when you get out of the Pacific, unnecessary, exactly. And if we have the necessary, then we want to incorporate that into our life the best we to be the best that we are. And if you get on the Pacific Crest Trail, you find, you know, you hike all day. Entire day, you take your breath, breaks, so you make sure you eat and drink enough. But that’s all you’re doing. The entire day from when you get up in the morning to when you when you need to allow enough time to set up your tent. But there’s old people out there. And they’re in shape you wouldn’t believe. There’s, you know, there’s a lot of twenty, thirty, forty, fifty year olds out there, but there’s older people out there.
Victoria Volk: Well, in thirty, forty year olds that can’t do what you can do, wouldn’t even dare do what you’ve done?
Scott Forrester: Yeah. I throughout my life, I have shunned any job that involved eight hours a day of sitting.
Victoria Volk: Oh, Yeah. Sitting if they face sitting as the new smoking.
Scott Forrester: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No. That was the same.
Victoria Volk: Well, thank you so much for your time today and sharing about Lee and stealth and your father and your and your mother and all the wisdom that you brought to our conversation, I I thank you for your time.
Scott Forrester: Thank you. You are an an excellent host to enjoy talking to you. Get in touch with me if you wanna learn more about the fellow price benefits.
Victoria Volk: And where can people find you if they would like to get in touch with you?
Scott Forrester: I’m actually reworking my website, but you can get all my contact information off of the aware athlete dot com.
Victoria Volk: K. I will put
Scott Forrester: a link. Not the aware athlete. Aware athlete dot com.
Victoria Volk: Aware athlete dot com. And I will put a link to that in the show notes as well.
Scott Forrester: I’m actually yeah. I’m I’m I’m actually working on a website that’s not really live yet, the aware human.
Victoria Volk: Okay. I like that.
Scott Forrester: Yeah. And you can find my books. You wear athlete book. Your warehouse to find that you should put in the warehouse, the entire title I won’t give you the subtitled now. But the awareness, like, by Scott Forrester, you can find that on Amazon.
Victoria Volk: And I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. Yeah.
Scott Forrester: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Victoria Volk: Thank you. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Watch your growth.
Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Healing, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Today’s episode is about navigating significant dates and other reminders after a loss. Anniversaries, birthdays, holidays—these milestones can be poignant reminders that reopen the chapters of our grief, not to mention the special places that flood the heart with memories, and then the waves of emotion follow.
But here’s what I’ve learned: While it may seem like these days are there to test our resolve, they also offer us an opportunity for reflection and honoring memories. Consider this—what if you could transform your pain on these dates into acts of remembrance? Lighting a candle or playing their favorite song isn’t just about ritual; it’s about keeping a part of them alive within us.
Key Points Discussed:
- Acknowledging the Weight of Memories
- Permitting Yourself to Feel
- Creating New Traditions
- The Silence Around Grief
- Finding Support That Moves You Forward
- Planning Ahead for Tough Days
- Self-Care & Communication During Grief
When my father passed away, my family chose silence as our coping mechanism—a choice that left little room for healing. It taught me an invaluable lesson: acknowledgment is not only necessary but vital, especially when young eyes are looking up at us to learn how to navigate their own emotional landscapes.
The power of community in times like these cannot be overstated. Surrounding yourself with people who understand your journey is more than comforting; it’s healing. But remember—finding spaces where growth is nurtured over stagnation is crucial. As you approach those tough calendar days, plan ahead. Honor your feelings by allowing yourself to say no when needed and yes to self-care and tenderness towards your heartache.
To everyone walking through seasons of grief: know that every step taken is progress made toward healing—even on those dates marked by absence rather than celebration.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Waves of Grief: Honoring Lost Loved Ones on Special Dates
Grief is an unpredictable companion, often intensifying during significant dates that remind us of those we’ve lost. In this episode of *Grieving Voices*, we delve into how these poignant reminders—birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays—can reopen healing wounds and what strategies can help us cope with the renewed sense of loss.
The Ebb and Flow of Memories
Special dates act as powerful triggers for grief. They are stark reminders that life has irrevocably changed. Whether it’s a birthday without the celebrant or a holiday missing one key participant, such days highlight absence with an acute sharpness.
It’s crucial to recognize that feeling overwhelmed by these occasions is not only common but entirely natural. It’s part of the grieving process—one that doesn’t adhere to timelines or expectations. Be gentle with yourself; allow emotions to surface without self-judgment.
Crafting New Traditions in Remembrance
In my own experience following my father’s passing, I learned that ignoring these important dates wasn’t beneficial—for me nor for my siblings who were also grappling with their grief journey. Instead, creating new traditions can be a therapeutic way to honor our loved ones’ memories while acknowledging our ongoing lives.
Lighting a candle might seem simple yet symbolizes so much more—it’s a beacon of remembrance casting light on cherished moments shared together. Playing their favorite music allows melodies to fill the silence left behind—a celebration of their tastes and preferences even in absence.
Cooking a meal they loved serves as an homage through flavors and scents—an intimate connection maintained across different realms. These acts don’t replace presence but rather intertwine memory within current experiences, ensuring our loved ones continue to influence our lives meaningfully.
Seeking Supportive Communities
The importance of finding understanding individuals or groups cannot be overstated when navigating grief’s complexities on special dates. Sharing stories about your loved one can provide immense comfort—not just in expressing your feelings but also in hearing others’ accounts which may echo your own experiences or offer fresh perspectives.
Seek out environments where you feel genuinely heard—a space where progress towards healing is encouraged over stagnation in sorrowful reflection alone.
Preparing for Tough Times
Planning ahead for challenging days involves recognizing personal needs amidst societal expectations surrounding social gatherings and festivities—the right to grieve authentically should always take precedence over conforming to norms if they do not serve your well-being at heart.
Declining invitations needn’t be seen as rudeness but rather an assertion of self-care; prioritize activities conducive to your healing journey whether it means solitude or seeking company depending on what feels right at any given moment.
Healing from loss isn’t passive—it requires openness towards moving forward despite pain lingering beneath surfaces readying itself especially during significant times like anniversaries and holidays.
Taking small steps each day towards acceptance can gradually build resilience against grief’s harsher waves when they come crashing down unexpectedly around these sensitive periods.
As we conclude today’s *Grieving Voices* discussion remember: care deeply for yourselves because through unleashing hearts comes freedom—and ultimately life itself becomes unleashed anew albeit differently shaped by love enduring beyond physical presence alone.
Until next time cherish every heartbeat knowing each throb honors those gone before us guiding lights forevermore along paths trodden under starlit skies filled with memories everlasting… Much love always 💖
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome dear listeners to another episode of our journey together through grief and healing on this episode, one ninety, holy cow of grieving voices. So thank you so much for being here.
Victoria Volk: Today, I’m addressing a topic that touches the heart deeply, navigating special dates and reminders after the loss of a loved one. Whether it’s the anniversary of their passing, their birthday, or the first holiday season without them. These moments can reopen wounds and challenger peace, quite frankly. Let’s start by acknowledging that these dates and reminders like the empty chair at the holiday table or the quiet of a bedroom once filled with laughter. Carry a weight of memories and emotions. And it’s entirely okay to feel a surge of grief, and it’s okay to seek ways to honor and remember those we’ve lost while nurturing our hearts. Firstly, I want to tell you, give yourself permission to feel. I didn’t for over thirty years. And that’s a form of suffering. That’s a form of self suffering. Grief doesn’t follow a schedule and emotions may come in waves. It’s important to allow yourself to experience these feelings without judgment. I can tell you, I wish I would have allowed myself to feel much sooner and earlier in my life.
Victoria Volk: Creating a new tradition can be a meaningful way to honor your loved one. Light a candle for them. Play their favorite music, or prepare a meal they loved. This act of remembrance can be a comforting way to keep their memory alive. I remember when my dad passed away and on the anniversaries, there was no talk of remembrance or honoring quite frankly, it was not even really acknowledged. It was something that we held closely to the vest individually. And that’s really sad to me. And I don’t wish that for anybody, especially children who grow up learning that that’s the air quote, right way to grieve. There is no right or wrong way to grieve. There’s your way, but there are healthier, more proactive ways. That move you forward, but don’t keep you stuck. That’s what I’m all about. And so in order to do that, Oftentimes we need to reach out to for support. Surrounding yourself with understanding, friends, or family, or even joining a support group. Be careful though. Support groups can be a place that make you feel more miserable after you leave.
Victoria Volk: So it’s important to find a support group that you feel comfortable with, that everyone’s voice feels heard and honored, and quite frankly, that maybe has some action that moves you forward, not keeping repeating the same story week after week. But it can be a great place to connect with other people who have experienced a similar loss as you. And even if they haven’t experienced a similar loss as you, we can all learn something from each other. But spaces like these and people that we trust can often provide us comfort It enables us to share stories and memories which can be powerful way to feel connected to your loved one and to others who understand your pain. Again, this wasn’t something that was demonstrated for me growing up as a child. And I don’t think that is the case for many children, even today, I don’t think much has changed in in the ways that we grieve. Which is why my mission to share what grief is and my understanding, my new understanding, my new knowledge, what I’ve learned about it, has become an important mission of mine.
Victoria Volk: So thank you for joining me in this episode, and I hope that you share it. And share any other episode that you feel could be insightful or helpful to someone else you know or love. Coming back to the episode and what we’re talking about today, it’s important to plan ahead for those tough days. Knowing that a difficult date is approaching, consider planning a day that balances remembrance with self care. It might be a day for quiet reflection or doing something that brings you joy or peace. I recently had the deversary of my father. And quite frankly, I spent the day doing what I love. And that’s putting together and working on a pet loss program. And working on my mission, that was a way that I could honor my loss. In the memory of my father. And so whatever that means for you, that is a form of self care.
Victoria Volk: Moving on for those reminders that come unexpectedly, like an invite to an event your loved one will never experience. Like a wedding, graduation, baby shower. It’s okay to give yourself grace. It’s okay to decline invitations if you’re not ready. And it’s okay to take moments for yourself when memories flood in unexpectedly. Perhaps you wish to attend these events, and create an exit strategy for yourself if it becomes too much and emotionally overwhelming. One more thing on that note, if it’s been several years. Now again, grief doesn’t follow a timeline. If moving forward and being able to go to events like a wedding or a baby shower or graduation is something you want to do without feeling this pull to the pain of the past? That is an indicator for you, that it’s time to take action, that it’s time to address what is emotionally incomplete for you.
Victoria Volk: And I’ve shared it in other podcast episodes, and I’ll share it today. I do have a program that’s one on one working with Grievers. Twelve sessions. It’s called do grief differently. It’s just you and me. It’s not talk therapy. It’s an evidence based program that is specific to you and your life experience and your specific grief. And that’s why it works. It may appear to be like this cookie cutter thing. And I know a lot of people might think, well, it worked for you who you know, it’s not gonna work for me. How do you know unless you try? And if you tried everything else, what do you have to lose? But more years of a joy filled life. That’s my challenge for you today as you’re listening to this, to consider that. Moving on to my final recommendation for Grievers listening to this. Is consider creating a memory box or a dedicated space in your home where you can display photos, momentos, or anything else that reminds you of your loved one.
Victoria Volk: Visiting the space can offer a sense of closeness and a personal sanctuary for your grief and love. There is a caveat to this though. Sometimes we can enshrine people. We can create an enshrinement in our homes. Of the person we we lost. And these enshrinements where we view the person as never having any humanness to them, like never having any faults, never doing anything bad and we just we we think only the positive about this person. But if you really dig deep, You have to ask yourself, how true is that? Because even the closest people we we love who have passed away, hurt us in some way, caused us suffering or pain, or stress or frustration, maybe we were estranged. We need to get to the emotional truth of the relationship and if we entrying people. And never become emotionally complete with those those hertz that we’re holding on to. But we’re over shrouding and over simplifying and probably even minimizing or not even addressing the other things that hurt us. This is where we remain emotionally incomplete. And remain stuck in our pain.
Victoria Volk: So it’s important to consider that when you’re creating this space in your home for someone who is passed away. On the flip side of that, we also call the opposite, be devilment, where you only think of the negative about somebody or only hold on to the negative aspects of the relationship. And you have to ask yourself that as well. Like, is that completely true? Is that one hundred percent true of the relationship? Relationships are dynamic and complicated and complex and layered and and we have to address all of the emotional stuff on the positive and the negative side to become emotionally and we can’t do that if we’d be devolving someone or if we’re enshrining the relationship. And maybe that’s the first time you’ve heard any of that.
Victoria Volk: And Maybe you’re asking yourself, oh, do I have an enshrinement? It might be devilish someone in a relationship, and only you can answer that. But take some time with this episode and reflect on the things that I’ve shared so far. Listen to it again if you have to. But remember, dear listeners grief is a journey that is uniquely yours. And there’s no right or wrong way to navigate these moments when they hit. But I wanted to share this episode as a way to support and bring some lightness to the dark, and to let you know that it’s okay to have days where you don’t feel okay. And being able to communicate that to those around you saying, you know what, I need space today. Thank you so much for the invitation, but I’m going to have to decline. That’s all you need to say. You don’t need to go into the long story, an explanation. You don’t owe an explanation. Just I need to tend to my heart today. That’s it.
Victoria Volk: And so what’s most important is that you do what feels right for you allowing yourself to heal. Again, allowing yourself to heal. You have to be open to receiving that healing. And I also think you need to be ready to want to heal. And remember in your own time and in your own way that will happen. Might not be today, but hold the hope that it could be tomorrow or even two months from now. If you take little baby steps every day, I promise you you’ll get there, but Time is not gonna wait for you to figure it out. Didn’t wait for me. Over thirty years, it did not wait for me. Trust me on that. It takes action to move your life forward in the direction that you want it to go. Thank you for sharing this time with me today. May you find comfort and strength and healing in the days ahead?
Victoria Volk: Until next time, take care of your hearts. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Podcast, solo episode, Spirituality |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
For this week’s episode, I drew inspiration from an oracle deck by creator Colette Baron-Reid called Postcards from Spirit. Its message to you, my audience, and myself was the importance of stepping back to observe our thoughts and behaviors. This card pull reading inspired me to share my personal experience in decision-making as it relates to my business and how stepping away helped me gain clarity. The episode touches on human design, emotional authority, and the traps of fear-based decisions while offering encouragement.
Key Points Discussed:
- Oracle Card Inspiration: Victoria begins by sharing an Oracle card reading meant to provide guidance for herself and listeners.
- Observation as a Tool: Emphasizes the value of being an observer of life’s situations rather than reacting impulsively or emotionally.
- Personal Anecdote on Decision Making: I share a recent, behind-the-scene experience in making a business decision.
- Human Design Insights: This is a brief introduction to Human Design elements, such as ’emotional authority,’ that impact decision-making processes.
- Growth Through Challenges: Encourages embracing opportunities that push us beyond our comfort zones for personal growth.
- Grief Reflections: The observation theme is connected to grieving, urging listeners to examine their beliefs about suffering and healing.
- Taking Action Toward Peaceful Living: Inspires listeners to take small steps towards observing their inner selves for peace.
- I invite anyone who wants to further the discussion or would like additional support to reach out for a free consultation.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
In the hustle and bustle of our daily lives, we’re often swept up in a whirlwind of emotions and hurried decisions. This week on Grieving Voices, we delve into the profound wisdom found within Colette Baron Reid’s Postcards from Spirit oracle deck – a message that serves as a gentle reminder about the power of stepping back to gain clarity.
The Message: Neutrality is Key
The card pulled speaks volumes: “Observe rather than act.” It’s an invitation to take a breath, step out of the chaos, and look at situations with fresh eyes. In doing so, we allow ourselves space for neutrality in decision-making. But what does it mean to be neutral?
Neutrality doesn’t imply indifference or lack of care; instead, it means approaching decisions without being clouded by intense emotions or biases. It’s about finding balance between detachment and engagement – observing your thoughts and feelings without immediately reacting to them.
Personal Reflections
As your host Victoria shared from her personal journey, making significant choices such as investing in a business coach can stir up an array of emotions including fear, excitement, doubt, and hope. She navigated this crossroad through journaling and open discussions which allowed her to step back from the emotional edge.
Here are some ways you can apply this practice:
– Journaling: Write down your thoughts without censorship. Seeing your fears or hopes on paper can make them less overwhelming.
– Talking it Out: Discussing options with trusted friends or mentors provides new perspectives.
– Waiting Period: Give yourself time before making big decisions; sleep on it if necessary.
Applying Wisdom Amidst Grief
Grief has its own complex layers that affect decision-making processes profoundly. When you’re grieving – whether over lost loved ones or past versions of yourself – old beliefs may surface like uninvited guests at dinner time.
Ask yourself:
– Am I choosing based on fear?
– Are my decisions trying to avoid pain rather than embracing growth?
Observation becomes crucial here because grief can obscure our view like foggy glasses. By cleaning those lenses through observation, you might find peace amidst turmoil.
Supportive Steps Forward
Remember that observing isn’t passive; it’s an active process towards informed choices leading toward healing and potential fulfillment. As mentioned in Grieving Voices podcast:
1) Reflect deeply on how past experiences influence current choices.
2) Seek support when needed – consultations offer professional guidance.
3) Embrace patience with yourself during difficult times.
Tune In For More Insights
If these ideas resonate with you or spark curiosity about navigating life’s challenges more mindfully—be sure not miss next week’s episode! Available across platforms like iTunes, Google Podcasts & Spotify (you can even ask Alexa), each session aims at empowering listeners towards unleashing their heart’s full capacity—because ultimately unlocking one’s heart unlocks life itself!
Let us all remember: there is immense strength found within moments where we choose simply observe before leaping into action—it is there that clarity emerges from calmness much love until next time!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria: Hello. Hello. Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria. And I wasn’t sure what I was going to do for today’s episode in just decided I would pull a card from one of my oracle decks to see if I felt inspired. And I chose my favorite deck to pull a card from. And it’s called postcards from Spirit, and it’s from been created by Colette Baron Reid, who is the bestselling author of the map and uncharted. I have not read her books, but I might have to just because I absolutely love this deck so much. I bring it to expos and public events that I go to where I share about grief recovery and the grief work that I do and energy healing, and I ask people if they would like a a card pulled. And the is the deck I usually use and it’s amazing to me how people read these cards and they’re brought to tears. It’s as if it really is a message from one of their dearly departed, just giving them a message of of hope or comfort or just exactly what they needed to hear that day. And so when I pulled this card, I pulled it with the intention of what my audience, what you out there may need to hear today. And So I’m gonna read the card and then I’m just gonna share some reflections around it and my thoughts about it. Deer you. Now as one of those times, you’re being asked to add some distance. Take a step back and do nothing but observe. Don’t worry about how long it will take to regroup. Just know it’s temporary and actually an opportunity to take a breath, slow down and look at how far you’ve come. Decisions for the highest good are made when you have clarity, which comes from being open to information from both the intellect, and the intuition. When you step into the role of observer, it’s as if you turn on a switch that allows your soul to be an essential part of the information gathering and decision making process. In this way, you can approach things from a more neutral and non judgmental place. We know you’ll make the right choice. Trust us when we say now is not the time to get too close to the fray. Step back now. You will be glad you did. When I read that, I thought a lot about just how we go about our day to day, not even being an observer. Of our own behavior, of our beliefs, of the thoughts that we have about ourselves, Maybe even others, judgments of others, a quick glance and we have this quick thought We don’t observe our own thoughts. We don’t take the time enough to observe ourselves, our behavior, our thoughts, our beliefs, all of it. And I think what I’ve personally learned just even through human design, in my human design as a manifesto, which I’ll link in the show notes if you’re not sure what that is. I’m not gonna go down that rabbit hole today, but what I learned is, for me, what I need to do to get my clarity and to observe is to step away from whatever it is is activating me in the moment. Whether it is a decision to be made or I’m gathering information like this is the perfect card probably for me and this is probably something I needed to hear too. But a reminder for me and you that if you are an emotional authority in human design, which is fifty percent of the population, If you are an emotional authority, you have to ride your emotional wave. We are not in a Claire And we are not clear in our decision making process. We are not in a neutral place. When we make decisions on an emotional high or in an emotional low. I’ll give you an example. I recently was like February or so I had been well, starting in January, actually, I had been debating on if I wanted to hire the certain business coach. And I it just threw me into this emotional roller coaster that was so unexpected it was a significant investment. I’d never invested that much in myself nor for my personal development in my business for I’ve invested plenty. Trust me, in my certifications and in learning. And growing for my business, but never to this degree. And it really just threw me for a loop. I I mean, I was I couldn’t sleep. I was trying to intellectually rationalize why I thought I wanted this, why I couldn’t afford it, or why I didn’t deserve it, or all these things like it was it was literally like an emotional roller coaster. And but what was at the heart of it was that in what I came to understand when I stepped away and journaled through my emotions, which, you know, I have a defined throat. If you have a defined throat, you need to get this stuff out. I think either way, you need to get the stuff out, but, you know, emotionally or you know, with sound or singing or poetry, like, the if you have a defined throat, like, you have a motor in your throat that needs to get things up and out verbally. And So I started to do that. I started to talk with some trusted friends, talk it through with trusted friends, journal it through, and really did my due diligence on making sure that I was gonna get to a place that I felt like it was a decision that was coming from a neutral place and that I wasn’t trying to intellectualize my decision, and I wasn’t trying to shut down my intuition at at the same time. Honoring both, the both and, like, I can feel scared, but I can also feel excited about this opportunity Not knowing, will I ever get this opportunity again to work with this person? At the end of the day and after weeks, trust me, it was weeks. I even asked for an extra week to give my final decision, which they were so graceful in doing. I came to the decision that this is exactly what I needed. And what I wanted for myself and for my business and I can tell you that it has been one of the most stretching things I have ever done in recent years. Aside probably since I went through my grief recovery program, since I worked through my grief the very first time. In twenty nineteen when I got certified and went through the program for great recovery myself. So a lot’s changed for me since that time, but just since signing up with this coach, it was almost like that act of of choosing and doing that has really stretched me and that’s what I wanted. I wanted growth in a different way. I wanted to challenge my beliefs around what I deserved or what was, you know, money. Money is a huge issue for so many people. But I found a way. I found a way, and I have made a way. And because it was a priority, for me. And but I had to come to the place of being an observer first. And how many decisions do we make? Not observing. Just making a fear based decision. For the most part, I think most of us make fear based decisions. Had I said no to this opportunity, which I was looking at it like an opportunity number one, but had I said no to it, I thought that through to the end, like, I would have I I would have felt like I missed an opportunity to expand and grow my business in a way that I couldn’t see it for myself. And also, I know myself well enough to know then I need some accountability. And, you know, so some of us, you know, do really well answering to ourselves what some of us need. More than that, some of us need accountability, partners, or somebody to, hey, did you do that thing? And I’m very good at pushing people off the ledge. Of whatever it is they’re trying to do or wanting to do. So if you need a ledge pusher like I’m your gal, if there is a dream or a goal that you’ve been putting on the back burner and have been afraid to do, I can be your courage, your ounce of courage that you need. And I can be your pusher because I love pushing people. To meet their potential. And that comes back to my u map, which I have Maximizer in my top ten, so I love to maximize other people into their meeting their potential. Anyway, I’m getting on a tangent of view map and human design and all of that. But coming back to this card, I want you just to think about and maybe listen to it again in the framework of your grief. You know, if you’re not observing yourself, and your beliefs, and your grief, what is that costing you? Do you believe that you are just destined to suffer the rest of your life? That how you’re feeling today? Is how you’re just always gonna feel and why bother? That was me at one time? That’s a lie. I’ll tell you that is a lie. Check-in with your intuition. Make a point to observe yourself. Observe your behavior, observe your thoughts? Like, why am I thinking this way? Why do I think that is true? What is the evidence? What proof do I have? We will always look for the proof in whatever of how we perceive things. We will look for the proof to back that up. Right? We don’t like to be challenged in our in our thought patterns and beliefs. Particularly, we don’t like it. But that’s what I think is what’s keeping so many people stuck in their grief in particular. Is they’re not being challenged in that way. They’re not challenging themselves. They’re not being the observer of their own selves because we can we can project our pain and our suffering on other people all we want, but it’s not gonna bring us to peace. That’s an inside job. Peace is an inside job. And it starts with being an observer. And that’s that’s my reflection on this card and I’m really glad I just, you know, I needed some inspiration for today’s episode, and I it was the perfect card. For today, for you, and for me, a reminder of how far I’ve come, Since I’ve been working on my grief in early twenty nineteen, my life has just exploded in the best way. In growth, in learning, and It’s expanded in all areas of my life really. You know, I worked out this morning and it was a really hard workout. That I hadn’t done in quite some time. In fact, I hadn’t picked up weights in quite some time. I had been doing power walks and stuff, but because I’d yeah. I’d hired a biz I’d I’d hired a health coach and was working with her and did was doing awesome. But for whatever reason, I can’t remember there was something that happened and it just kinda derailed me and I just I wasn’t picking up the weights anymore, and now I’m back to square one. When you don’t use it, you lose it. And that is the truth when it whether it’s your body, your mind, your heart, If you don’t give yourself love, you lose it, you start to lose it for yourself. And So yeah, I hope this inspired you to take some sort of small action today If you want to discuss further or talk deeper about whatever came up for you, I would love that. I’m all for free consultations. If I can better help and serve you, I that’s what I’m here to do. And otherwise, I will see you next week here in iTunes. Google Podcasts or Spotify wherever you’re listening to me. It’s available on all platforms. You can even say, Alexa, play, griving voices, podcasts, and it’ll start playing. So, I’m here when you need me. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Guest, Mental Health, Mind/Body Wellness, Pet Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Welcome to another profound episode of Grieving Voices, where we explore the emotional intricacies of dealing with loss and healing.
Today’s guest is Denise Schonwald, a registered nurse turned nationally licensed therapist. With her holistic approach to care that encompasses mental, physical, and spiritual well-being, she offers insights into nurturing both body and mind.
In this episode:
- Discover how Denise transitioned from critical care nursing into mental health support.
- Understand why honoring commitments is crucial for personal trust and self-care.
- Learn about the high burnout rates in nursing – especially post-COVID – and how self-care can prevent it.
- Explore the importance of emotional intelligence in recognizing when you’re inflicting suffering on yourself through poor self-care choices.
- Gain strategies for managing anger effectively without damaging relationships or your own well-being.
- Delve into people pleasing: why we do it, its impacts on our lives, and how to establish healthier boundaries.
- Hear about grief’s “waiting room” – what keeps us there and how to move forward.
Denise’s journey from a nurse fascinated by the intricacies of human anatomy to a spiritual teacher and family mediator is nothing short of inspiring. She has woven her experiences into a tapestry that offers comfort and guidance to those navigating emotional turmoil.
Through her narrative, Denise uncovers an essential truth: honoring personal commitments is pivotal. When we falter on these promises to ourselves, trust erodes, leaving us vulnerable to self-inflicted suffering.
Self-care isn’t just about indulgence; it’s preventative maintenance for our souls—something Denise has embraced through meditation and mindful practices like Reiki. These practices have been instrumental in managing stress levels after witnessing patients’ crises firsthand as a critical care nurse and mental health professional.
Denise sheds light on how emotions like frustration are precursors to anger—an emotion many grapple with yet struggle to manage effectively.
RESOURCES:
*Denise is generously offering my listeners a free copy of one of her books. Reach out to her through her website to receive your FREE copy today!*
CONNECT:
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Insights on Personal Commitments and Emotional Management
In the labyrinth of life, we often find ourselves at crossroads where our hearts bear the heavy toll of grief. Today, I had the privilege to converse with Denise Schonewald—a beacon of solace and understanding in such turbulent times.
Denise’s journey from a nurse fascinated by the intricacies of human anatomy to a spiritual teacher and family mediator is nothing short of inspiring. She has woven her experiences into a tapestry that offers comfort and guidance to those navigating emotional turmoil.
Through her narrative, Denise uncovers an essential truth: honoring personal commitments is pivotal. When we falter on these promises to ourselves, trust erodes, leaving us vulnerable to self-inflicted suffering. It’s akin to constructing a dam without acknowledging the river—eventually, the waters will breach their confines.
She sheds light on how emotions like frustration are precursors to anger—an emotion many grapple with yet struggle to manage effectively. Her approach? Acknowledgment paired with therapeutic tools like tuning forks that recalibrate our emotional energy.
One profound aspect she touches upon is people-pleasing—a double-edged sword that while momentarily alleviating anxiety can lead us astray from our true selves. Clear communication and solid values stand as sentinels guarding against this tendency.
As someone who has experienced loss closely through my son’s grieving over his friend’s suicide, Denise’s insights resonate deeply. Creating safe spaces for expression and being present in silence are powerful acts of support during grief.
Nurturing the Soul Through Meditation and Mindful Practices
Self-care isn’t just about indulgence; it’s preventative maintenance for our souls—something I’ve embraced through meditation and mindful practices like Reiki which have been instrumental in managing stress levels after witnessing patients’ crises firsthand as a critical care nurse.
Wisdom and Practical Guidance
Denise reminds us that preparing for tomorrow doesn’t mean living in fear but rather simplifying life so we can face what comes with grace and resilience.
Her work goes beyond counsel—it provides hope anchored in real-world wisdom honed through years of helping others navigate their darkest hours.
And if you’re wondering about tangible steps towards healing? Engage with nature or nurture—a pet or even a plant—to foster growth amidst sorrow.
For those seeking more than words, Denise extends an invitation: visit deniseschonewall.com for resources including mental health quizzes and books designed not merely as reads but as companions along your journey toward healing.
The essence here is clear: Unleash your heart because within its beats lies untold strength capable of weathering any storm—with love serving as both anchor and compass guiding us home.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:38
Welcome to grieving voices. Thank you for joining me today and listening. And today I have Denise Schonewald with me. She is a dedicated registered nurse for over 30 years, a seamlessly transitioned into a nationally licensed mental health counselor and published author based in Sarasota, Florida. With a deep understanding of the emotional challenges faced by patients and their families, Denise’s holistic approach integrates mental and physical well-being. As a spiritual teacher and certified family mediator, she brings a unique perspective to her private practice, offering support to clients nationwide through virtual sessions.
Victoria Volk
00:00:39 – 00:00:55
Denise is committed to nurturing both body and mind, providing flexible and accessible care for individuals, couples, families and even young thinkers starting at the age of 4. Thank you so much for being here and also thank you for a copy of your book.
Denise Schonwald
00:00:56 – 00:00:59
Oh, terrific. I’m glad you received it. Welcome.
Victoria Volk
00:01:00 – 00:01:30
It’s insightful self-therapy, increasing your awareness about mental health and how to live a happier life. And I will put a link to that in the show notes, and we’ll actually be talking. I’ll be there’s a couple of things I have noted that I would like to talk about that you mentioned in the book, but first I’m curious what brought you into the nursing profession and you know, it’s in a way a healer profession. What brought you there?
Denise Schonwald
00:01:31 – 00:02:07
Well, I love how fascinating and sophisticated the body is. So I always saw myself in some sort of nursing. I considered just very briefly being a physician, but and I love also helping people. I did my specialty was critical care, and working with people who are very sick and dying is quite an honor and very stressful. And I just it was just a wonderful career until I was getting to the point where I was getting too old to do the grind of 12-hour shifts and call and nights and weekends and holidays.
Denise Schonwald
00:02:07 – 00:02:13
And so the transition for me to into mental health was an easy one.
Victoria Volk
00:02:13 – 00:02:19
What would you say to a young person who is just pursuing a career in nursing?
Denise Schonwald
00:02:20 – 00:02:58
I think a lot of people go into nursing, a lot of the young people that I meet, because it’s a wonderful career. I mean, you certainly have a lot of opportunities. You can certainly do very well financially. But what I really encourage them to do is not to forget that these are people that are going through very tough experiences. And I think a lot of times, we get caught with the clinical aspect of ordering meds and titrating drips and so forth, and we forget that these patients are going through something very very difficult, probably one of the most difficult things I’ve ever gone through, not only physically, but emotionally and sometimes spiritually.
Victoria Volk
00:02:59 – 00:03:18
What do you think is the highest indicator or greatest indicator of a nurse who will burn out in that career because they can be a very high burnout rate in that career as well, especially with COVID. I mean, you can you saw it. We saw it happening before our eyes.
Denise Schonwald
00:03:19 – 00:03:45
Yes. One thing when people are either physically sick or emotionally struggling, they pull energy. They only they’re thinking about themselves. They’re focused on themselves, rightly so, because they’re sick. And as healers and helpers, we understand that it takes a lot out of us to try to help them and nurture them, not only physically and emotionally.
Denise Schonwald
00:03:45 – 00:04:00
And when nurses and physicians and and mental health counselors don’t do their own work, so when we get home, we have to recover from that with self-care and exercise and rest, then we’re likely to burn out.
Victoria Volk
00:04:01 – 00:04:17
In your book, one thing I jotted down was, and I didn’t really think about this in terms of how we can inflict suffering on ourselves, but I think there’s actually a book. Oh gosh. The four agreements.
Denise Schonwald
00:04:17 – 00:04:18
Yeah. Love it.
Victoria Volk
00:04:18 – 00:04:35
Yeah. Yeah. But you mentioned in your book, the importance of honoring commitments. And when you think about the flip side of that, of dishonoring our commitments, and one of the commitments can be self-care to ourselves, right? Just self-care.
Denise Schonwald
00:04:35 – 00:04:35
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:04:36 – 00:04:40
But can you speak a little bit about the importance of honoring our commitments?
Denise Schonwald
00:04:42 – 00:05:10
If you think about relationships, the only thing that we can sort of we rely on with each other is trust. And when I tell you that I’m going to do something or you tell me that you’re going to help me with something and you don’t do that, that really betrays my trust. And so that’s difficult to recover from. But what I find more frequently is people, and individuals really don’t honor themselves. They don’t get enough self-care.
Denise Schonwald
00:05:10 – 00:05:34
They don’t, sometimes when I talk to patients about self-care, they say, I don’t have time for that. And I say, well, you’ll either make time for self-care or you’re gonna have to make time for illness because the body cannot sustain if we don’t nurture it. And I’m not really sure why as a society now, we’re neglecting our own self-care care for sacrificing it for helping others.
Victoria Volk
00:05:37 – 00:06:10
You know, there’s been periods of time in my life where I’ve been guilty of sabotaging my own self-care. It’s like in those moments of, like, extreme challenge or being confronted with something really challenging, that that’s when you need to double down on your self-care. And me personally, I think I’ve had to learn that lesson several times. Like, okay, this is when I need to really double down on taking a break and needing a mental break. And so I’m glad that you mentioned that in your book.
Victoria Volk
00:06:11 – 00:06:41
In that same vein, you talk there’s another aspect of your book where you talk about the importance of emotional intelligence. And I think as we develop that emotional intelligence, we have that obviously more self-awareness when we realize that we’re self-sabotaging our self, you know, our own self-care and things like that. What have you found in your practice has been helpful for people that you’ve worked with and even for yourself in developing emotional intelligence?
Denise Schonwald
00:06:42 – 00:06:57
Here’s a very easy way. 1 is notice, not judge. Notice how as an individual that we’re starting to act. Are we all of a sudden very irritable? Are we going to the refrigerator one too many times for more food?
Denise Schonwald
00:06:57 – 00:07:26
Usually, when we’re very stressed emotionally, we go for sugar and carbs just automatically. Watch how much we’re drinking. If we’re smoking, watch how much we’re smoking because the body is trying to balance. And if we’re not doing healthy things, the mind becomes very active, and we start reaching for things in the environment that are unhealthy, spending, too much screen time. It’s something that the body is trying to find ease.
Denise Schonwald
00:07:26 – 00:07:30
But, unfortunately, if the mind’s in charge, it’s likely not gonna be a good choice.
Victoria Volk
00:07:31 – 00:08:10
My personal go-to is anger. So when I’m, like, just this last week, last week was a doozy of a week. I had some credit card fraud on my website, and it’s like when I thought that the week couldn’t start off any worse, it snowballed. I’ve lost access to my business Facebook page. Like, it’s been just technical, like stupid stuff that, I actually like the Facebook page thing was my own stupidity, not realizing what I was doing, but it’s really created a lot of anger to come up inside me.
Victoria Volk
00:08:10 – 00:08:27
And I find that when I’m angry, and I would love to talk about anger more because I think it’s a really important emotion that we have. But when I find that I’m getting angry, I don’t eat. I don’t drink. I don’t want it. I don’t want people to even talk to me.
Victoria Volk
00:08:28 – 00:08:32
Don’t talk to me. I just I need to sit with my anger.
Denise Schonwald
00:08:32 – 00:08:33
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:08:33 – 00:09:01
And I know not everybody’s like that. Like, a lot of people will just that like you said, they’ll reach for the refrigerator or they’ll go shopping to distract themselves. But for me, it’s like I have and it I it doesn’t come out very pretty either. So, like, how do you reconcile that? Like, when the anger is coming out and up, it’s like and you have people around you and you don’t wanna be, you know, you don’t wanna be a jerk.
Denise Schonwald
00:09:01 – 00:09:01
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:09:01 – 00:09:07
What is your advice for that? Because I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there listening like, that’s me.
Denise Schonwald
00:09:07 – 00:09:25
Yes. One of the things, as a therapist that I do when I meet someone is I’m trying to figure out where they are emotionally. Like, where is their emotional frequency? It’s actually measured in something called Hertz. Anger is around a 150 Hertz.
Denise Schonwald
00:09:25 – 00:09:52
So it’s a low vibrational energy, but it’s got a lot of intensity. So anger, ego, jealousy, they’re all around the same sort of frequency. And when we get to that point, we likely are going to say something or do something. We can no longer hold it in. And after we say something or do something, likely, we feel either very guilty or shameful about how we just acted out.
Denise Schonwald
00:09:53 – 00:10:27
And then many times, we feel very sad and depressed. Both anger and shame and depression are take a lot of energy from the body, both very extreme emotions. For me, personally, when I want to say something out of anger or ego, let somebody know how I really feel, I remind myself not to say a word. Because even if I do, it’s not likely going to be well received. I will say, however, right now, I really don’t feel like I’m in a good place to talk about this.
Denise Schonwald
00:10:27 – 00:10:38
I would like a little time to, you know, think about it or whatever I wanna say just to give myself a little bit of space knowing that I’m going to very dangerous territory because I’m already pretty darn angry.
Victoria Volk
00:10:40 – 00:10:45
And it’s not even like I’m getting angry at people around me. They’re just trying to ask me a question
Denise Schonwald
00:10:45 – 00:10:45
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:10:46 – 00:11:17
or they’re and I’m just so wrapped up in my own anger that I can’t even have a conversation. But you bring up a good point. I never I so one of the service offerings I have is, biofuel tuning with tuning forks. And so it’s interesting that you mentioned the hurts of anger, because I never thought personally to get out my tuning fork, maybe just come to my office, light a candle and you know, just strike my fork
Denise Schonwald
00:11:18 – 00:11:18
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:11:18 – 00:11:19
Few times.
Denise Schonwald
00:11:19 – 00:11:35
Vibrational energy to go a little bit higher
Victoria Volk
00:11:21 – 00:11:21
Yeah
Denise Schonwald
00:11:21 – 00:11:35
to get through that anger. Yes. The other thing is underneath anger, and I when I work with little children who have anger issues, I pretend it’s an umbrella. And I say, what’s underneath the angry umbrella? I’m frustrated.
Denise Schonwald
00:11:35 – 00:11:50
I’m overwhelmed. I’m disappointed. And I try to give them some language so that it doesn’t just come out in door slamming or screaming or calling names. And I go, okay. Let’s let’s think about the what’s under the angry umbrella.
Denise Schonwald
00:11:50 – 00:11:52
It’s actually very helpful for me too.
Victoria Volk
00:11:53 – 00:11:59
I will probably remember the umbrella the next time because I’m sure this issue that I’m dealing with is not over yet. And so, I’m suspecting some more anger will pop up
Denise Schonwald
00:12:00 – 00:12:00
uh-humm
Victoria Volk
00:12:00 – 00:12:39
as a result, but, thank you for that. I also wanna talk about people pleasing, which you mentioned in your book too, because just this past weekend, there was a skit on SNL. Ariana Grande was on and it was a people-pleasing support group skit. And, you know, it was it kinda was making fun of the people pleasing, but it had it was interesting that SNL is addressing this on their show
Denise Schonwald
00:12:40 – 00:12:40
Mmmor
Victoria Volk
00:12:40 – 00:12:41
talking about it on their show in this way.
Victoria Volk
00:12:41 – 00:12:56
But, you know, what people were saying was, oh, no worries. You know, because they had their lines to say, and one of them was, no worries. Whatever you decide and, you know, what do you think? Well, I’m I’m okay with whatever you think, you know, and so it was kind of exaggerating things. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:12:56 – 00:13:25
But I heard myself in what they were saying in some of these things, like, no worries, you know. What is what are some techniques for people to stop themselves when to recognize again, it’s developing that emotional intelligence about people pleasing first, but what are some suggestions that you have for people to get out of that? First of all, why do we do it? And then secondly, how do we stop it?
Denise Schonwald
00:13:26 – 00:13:37
Well, the reason why we do it is when someone’s unhappy or they don’t have something, it causes us a lot of anxiety, and we want to go in and fix it. And I might say, well, I wanna do it because I wanna help them but what I really want to do is make myself feel better about it.
Victoria Volk
00:13:37 – 00:13:37
Mmm..
Denise Schonwald
00:13:38 – 00:14:09
And so we have to be careful of that. And so what I tell a lot of people is when somebody’s unhappy or some they’re going through something, you can be supportive without fixing it. Because sometimes when we please, every the other person gets very resentful and frustrated because we’re coming in and we’re trying to just rescue and take care of when that’s not what they’ve asked for.
Denise Schonwald
00:14:09 – 00:14:45
They’re just letting us know they’re upset about something or some situation. But what happens with people pleasers, if we can imagine drawing a circle, and inside the circle should be our personal values and ethics and what makes us different from the next person. What is it that we know to be true about us? And when we meet people, they will figure out fairly quickly what’s inside our circle, what our values are, and they will like us or not like us or align with us or not. Does it mean one’s good or bad?
Denise Schonwald
00:14:45 – 00:15:17
Just means we understand and we appreciate each other or we don’t. The people pleaser circle has a lot of gaps in it. And what happens with them, unfortunately, is they will fall prey to people who are very manipulative and controlling. Because somebody who’s manipulative and controlling, they’re masterful at finding a people pleaser. And so when the people pleaser pleases, they’ll walk away knowing that they really may not have wanted to do what they just volunteered to do.
Denise Schonwald
00:15:18 – 00:15:34
And then they get a lot of they betrayed themselves, and they also have supported somebody to be very manipulative and to be very unkind. And that is really hard on the body.
Victoria Volk
00:15:34 – 00:15:34
You can see why.
Denise Schonwald
00:15:35 – 00:15:35
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:15:35 – 00:15:45
So in the dynamics of friendship and when we think about grief and what I hear a lot too is and I know people that have had this personal experience, but when you are going through something really challenging and you’re reaching out to people and they’re not showing up in a way that you need them to
Denise Schonwald
00:15:46 – 00:15:46
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:15:47 – 00:16:23
or are asking them to, how do you reconcile that where I don’t know how I’m trying to ask this, because it kind of revolves around people pleasing. It’s like, what if 2 people pleasers? I guess. You know, if you’re 2 people pleasers, and then you one person has, like, a really difficult time and needs the other person, and yet they can’t they just can’t do it.
Victoria Volk
00:16:23 – 00:16:39
They just they’re not able to support you. And so how do you reconcile honoring where someone else is at that they just can’t support you in that time? Because this can happen with grievers too a lot. Right?
Denise Schonwald
00:16:40 – 00:16:40
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:16:40 – 00:16:47
Like, this is where friendships kind of can break down and break apart, because people aren’t showing up for you how you hoped.
Denise Schonwald
00:16:47 – 00:16:47
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:16:48 – 00:16:50
Yeah. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Denise Schonwald
00:16:50 – 00:17:36
And I think with people pleasers, I think sort of the fear is that they’re going to hurt or disappoint someone. And what I try to do is help them with language because you can express how you feel without being insulting or dismissive. What I have found with grief is many people get very uncomfortable with grief, and they don’t know what to say, so they will say something very insensitive. Not meaning to, but they can hurt your feelings because they just sort of speak out of fear, and then they say something that is very hurtful. So what I tell people is understand that it’s just a very uncomfortable situation, and a lot of people don’t really feel comfortable navigating it.
Denise Schonwald
00:17:37 – 00:17:56
If they’re offering something that you really don’t want or won’t appreciate, it’s thank you so much. That’s so thoughtful. Maybe next week would be better to drop off whatever, some food or something like that. It’s always complimenting and appreciating, but then also letting them know what would work best.
Victoria Volk
00:17:59 – 00:18:01
So you bring up boundaries
Denise Schonwald
00:18:01 – 00:18:01
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:18:01 – 00:18:03
in a way in a roundabout way.
Denise Schonwald
00:18:03 – 00:18:03
I do.
Victoria Volk
00:18:04 – 00:18:12
So, I actually wanted to talk about that because you have a great exercise for creating boundaries in your book. Do you mind sharing that?
Denise Schonwald
00:18:12 – 00:18:16
Well, is that about the circle? Is that what I talked about about the 2nd?
Victoria Volk
00:18:16 – 00:18:20
Yes. Yes. You did. Yeah. You did touch on that when it came to yeah.
Denise Schonwald
00:18:20 – 00:18:38
Yes. And so what I tell people when your circle is clearly defined, you don’t have to defend it. You don’t have to overexplain it. You don’t have to get nasty when somebody but people will test boundaries. They want to know, like, what you will accept, what you won’t tolerate.
Denise Schonwald
00:18:39 – 00:18:55
It’s very important that we all understand that. As a therapist, as you can imagine, I get a lot of good experience and practice with boundaries. People are can be very manipulative, and why can’t you do this, and why can’t you see me there? And I said, listen. I would be happy to.
Denise Schonwald
00:18:55 – 00:19:16
Unfortunately, I’m not able to do it today, but I certainly have time tomorrow or Wednesday. If that’s acceptable to them, they go, okay. Thank you very much. If it’s not, that means that they’re not that there’s no boundary there. They don’t they would prefer that I don’t have boundaries, and it’s not going to be a good fit.
Denise Schonwald
00:19:16 – 00:19:30
I don’t wanna support them to be manipulative and abusive, nor do I want to run myself to the point where I’m exhausted and I’m no good to anyone. So I honor them, and I also honor myself with boundaries.
Victoria Volk
00:19:31 – 00:19:52
I was just gonna say, and that’s where a lot of helpers get themselves into trouble is yeah. And it and that ties in with the people pleasing. Right? Where you just you want to be supportive, you wanna be helpful, and it’s often to your own detriment when you’re not recognizing or acknowledging that boundaries are healthy, and they’re good for both parties involved.
Denise Schonwald
00:19:52 – 00:20:18
They really are. And if we don’t have, boundaries, what we end up doing is have being very bitter and resentful. Because we feel like people are taking advantage of us, and they are, but we’re also allowing that. So we also have to take responsibility for that. And, again, it’s getting comfortable just having these conversations nicely and then allowing the other person to accept it or not.
Victoria Volk
00:20:19 – 00:21:05
Yep. Absolutely. What I like you what you said about grief too, you know, when you get to that point where all these things just kind of where you realize you need boundaries and you start honoring your own commitments and you’re recognizing that you’re a people pleaser and you’re doing all these things and you have all this awareness, you can find yourself in a lot of grief just because like you said, when you’re start implementing these things in your life and having these awarenesses, people can it can rub people the wrong way. And that’s where these, you know, friendships and relationships can deteriorate as a result.
Denise Schonwald
00:21:01 – 00:21:01
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:21:01 – 00:21:06
And there’s grief in that, especially if it’s been a long-time friend or whatever the scenario may be, or even a marriage or a partnership and, and things.
Victoria Volk
00:21:06 – 00:21:10
I like how you said grief is it’s like you can become stuck in the waiting room.
Denise Schonwald
00:21:10 – 00:21:10
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:21:11 – 00:21:29
And so many people get stuck in the waiting room. And me personally, I was stuck in the waiting room Most of my adult life. I was a child griever and I, you know, you carry that stuff with you from childhood into adulthood and all the trauma and the mess and the baggage. Right?
Denise Schonwald
00:21:29 – 00:21:29
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:21:29 – 00:21:42
You carry it with you into adulthood. And, I mean, only in the past 5 years, have I had this leaps and bounds of self-awareness and growth and reconnecting with my own intuition and my own knowing.
Denise Schonwald
00:21:42 – 00:21:42
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:21:43 – 00:21:55
But can you speak to the philosophy you have about that and then about treating grief with medication and your philosophy around that?
Denise Schonwald
00:21:56 – 00:22:27
One of the things about grief, and I tell people this all the time, there’s no way of going around it. You have to just go through it. And you we’re we get so frightened of pain. But also with pain is I try to remind people, and this has been helpful in my own life, I try to look for meaning. Because what you said was so true about relationships, people that you think will show up for you sometimes don’t, and people that you think really didn’t even know you that well will show up.
Denise Schonwald
00:22:28 – 00:23:04
So grief will cause this major shift, and what you’re gonna get from it, hard to say. And it’s just something that that it just surprises me. But what I tried to find through my own grieving times is what how can I come through this a better person? One thing about with death, even back when I was in my critical care days, is boy I had such an appreciation for life and relationships and so forth. Also, for me to be more compassionate when other people are grieving.
Denise Schonwald
00:23:04 – 00:23:27
We tend to go to the funeral and maybe check in once, and then we go on to our daily lives. But yet, that’s when it’s the most difficult, you know, when things start to settle down. And so I’ve made myself a mental note to reach out to a lot of people that are grieving and suffering, just checking in. Not offering to help, not offering to just hey. How are you doing?
Denise Schonwald
00:23:27 – 00:23:33
Giving them that space to just speak their truth and how they’re feeling. It’s very important.
Victoria Volk
00:23:35 – 00:24:03
Do you find working in the mental health or the area of mental health and obviously with and things like that. Do you find because I’ve I’m feeling like, you know, there’s so much heaviness in the world. There’s so much sorrow and, suffering. Really? I mean, suffering.
Victoria Volk
00:24:03 – 00:24:03
Yeah.
Denise Schonwald
00:24:03 – 00:24:04
I agree.
Victoria Volk
00:24:04 – 00:24:53
It’s like, I feel like sometimes I just want to cocoon myself. And it’s like, you know, when you are work and when you work in this space, it’s like sometimes I think to myself, do people expect that I should do or behave or respond a certain way because I’m the grief expert or I work with grievers or the mental health expert, and I’m, you know, working with patients and families. And I know all this stuff, and I’m a helper. Like, how do you reconcile that for those listening, who are helpers, who are working in this space. Because to me, sometimes it is it feels like too much.
Victoria Volk
00:24:53 – 00:25:02
And that’s where I know I need to then maybe address some self-care within myself, but can you speak to that a little bit?
Denise Schonwald
00:25:02 – 00:25:32
It it’s very true. And so when you’re finding that it’s all so overwhelming and it’s so heavy, we need to go in and go, okay. What do I need so that I’m in a better, I’m sort of in a better fitness state to handle and to share space with this person who’s grieving? But, you know, at the end of the day, we’re all human beings, and it does affect us. Just because we don’t know this person or who’s lost somebody doesn’t mean we don’t feel that energy.
Denise Schonwald
00:25:32 – 00:25:57
That energy that their experience is pulling. They’re pulling from us because they want support and they want help and they’re they’re struggling and they’re suffering, and yet that’s gonna take a toll on us. You asked me before about medication.
Victoria Volk
00:25:49 – 00:25:49
Yeah
Denise Schonwald
00:25:49 – 00:25:57
That’s something as a nurse, I understand that sometimes medication is needed, but we also have to go through this grieving process. We’re not gonna get around it.
Denise Schonwald
00:25:57 – 00:26:12
We can try to numb it a little bit, but it’s very very painful. Some people can’t survive it. They’ve been married 50 years and their spouse dies. They tend to go right after them because it’s so heavy on the heart in particular.
Victoria Volk
00:26:13 – 00:26:29
Yeah. Thank you for circling back to that question. And even for me personally, it’s not even that I think you know, it’s not even people reaching out to me asking me but it’s like this I feel like this maybe a sense of duty in a way.
Denise Schonwald
00:26:30 – 00:26:30
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:26:30 – 00:26:34
And then I feel guilt when I don’t. And so that’s a little bit hard to reconcile for myself sometimes.
Denise Schonwald
00:26:35 – 00:27:10
Well and sometimes you need to make sure you’re in a good space to like, for instance, if somebody’s people that don’t know that I’m a therapist, if they catch me at the grocery store, I’ll say something like, listen. I’m really sorry this has happened to you. Why don’t you give me a call so we can meet privately or something like that? I just don’t know that I’m in a good mental space to have this conversation, you know, standing in the and the deli guy or whatever and so forth. And so I understand that it’s important to them, but I also have to make sure that I’m in a good place because I wanna give them my 100% focus.
Denise Schonwald
00:27:11 – 00:27:15
And I’m not in a good place when I’m out doing errands and so forth.
Victoria Volk
00:27:16 – 00:27:19
Yeah. And that’s great advice for the helpers listening to this.
Denise Schonwald
00:27:19 – 00:27:25
Mhmm. Yes. We’ve we all, sometimes have to go through that challenge.
Victoria Volk
00:27:26 – 00:27:59
We had talked before we started recording, talking about grief. And one of the things I would like to talk about is supporting kids because we had, you had mentioned that you, there’s been a lot of loss for your children or your son over the years and throughout his school years and into adulthood. And I think one of the things that hasn’t really been talked about a whole lot from a mental health standpoint is supporting, kids who have lost friends.
Denise Schonwald
00:27:59 – 00:27:59
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:28:00 – 00:28:05
And so can you share your professional and parental because it was also your son, right, from that like, the two halves of that?
Denise Schonwald
00:28:06 – 00:28:31
Yes. My son, who is now 28, probably lost 10 friends between 18 and 25, many to drug overdose, suicide. And you know, how do you and as parents, we wanna we don’t want them to suffer because they’re our children, and we wanna make it easier for them. But, again, this is something we gotta go through. We can’t go around.
Denise Schonwald
00:28:31 – 00:29:09
So all I have been able to do, and and the most recent one was just a couple years ago for my son, his very good friend committed suicide, This is to really sort of sit down and say, how are you doing? How are you feeling? Just because it’s an uncomfortable conversation, but it’s one that he needs the space to grieve. It can be very painful for me to hear it because he’s my son, and I don’t want him to suffer. But it’s also important that he know that I’m willing to sit with him in that time and in that space and be as comfortable as I can when he’s uncomfortable.
Denise Schonwald
00:29:10 – 00:29:11
So but it’s tough.
Victoria Volk
00:29:12 – 00:29:19
One of the common things that people say in grief is when people are asked, you know, how are you feeling? How are you doing? Most people say I’m fine.
Denise Schonwald
00:29:19 – 00:29:19
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:20 – 00:29:26
And in the grief work that I do, we say that fine means feelings inside not expressed.
Denise Schonwald
00:29:26 – 00:29:26
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:27 – 00:29:45
So it’s really just a mask. Right? That we say. So what are some things that you suggest then if you ask your son or your child or young adult or whether they’re 5 or 15 or 25 and you ask them how they’re doing or how they’re feeling and they say I’m fine, when do you press that?
Victoria Volk
00:29:45 – 00:29:50
Or how do you press that? And do you just keep asking until they say otherwise?
Denise Schonwald
00:29:50 – 00:30:00
Well, the other thing that yeah. I’m I’m very intuitive. So I’ll I’ll say something like, you know, how are you doing since you’ve lost such and such? And if they go, yeah. I’m doing really well.
Denise Schonwald
00:30:00 – 00:30:16
They seem to be very dismissive of it. I’ll say, listen. You know, if at any time you wanna talk about it, I’m I’m happy to have the conversation. Because it’s a little bit tough when you don’t wanna have the conversation, and somebody goes, well, just tell me. Just tell me or just share with me.
Denise Schonwald
00:30:16 – 00:30:37
And, you know, that’s also a boundary. But I like to sort of create the opening of listen, if you ever have a tough time with it, I’m more than happy you know, give me a call. I’m more than happy to talk to you and sit with you during this. But we have to understand that some people everybody deals with grief differently in their own way, and we need to honor that.
Victoria Volk
00:30:37 – 00:30:57
So what if you as the parent is uncomfortable with the topic of grief, period? And how do you get yourself more comfortable in having that conversation? Like, if you’re not confident in how you would respond or how you would support them, you may not be inclined to even ask. So how do you get to that point as a parent?
Denise Schonwald
00:30:58 – 00:31:17
Right. Well, so what maybe what you’re asking or what you’re suggesting is that the parent feels very anxious and very fearful of doing that. And so when we do that, we only think about ourselves. So we pull in and go, oh, I don’t wanna have this conversation. I don’t wanna feel uncomfortable and so forth.
Denise Schonwald
00:31:18 – 00:31:54
And what you were saying with your tuning forks to get your vibrational energy a little bit higher is for me to say, I’m okay to be uncomfortable to just open this space for this person to express themselves. And what I tend to do when I’m uncomfortable is I try to listen more than speak so that I don’t say something that I wish I hadn’t said. So I open the opportunity for conversation unless they don’t seem to wanna have it, and then I assure them that, listen. I’m happy to talk to you if you want to. If not, no problem.
Denise Schonwald
00:31:54 – 00:31:57
Just want you to know that I’m just checking in and hope you’re doing well.
Victoria Volk
00:31:59 – 00:32:09
Yeah. And you touched on it, but I think a lot of people think they have to have the solution, right or the fix it.
Denise Schonwald
00:32:09 – 00:32:09
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:32:10 – 00:32:15
And sometimes you just need to listen, and that’s maybe the best medicine is just to listen. You don’t even, you know, release that pressure from yourself to have to have to respond.
Victoria Volk
00:32:16 – 00:32:18
And just like like you said, just listen.
Denise Schonwald
00:32:18 – 00:32:22
Yes. I like to say, just checking in, see how you’re doing. So just it’s really light.
Victoria Volk
00:32:22 – 00:32:22
Mhmm.
Denise Schonwald
00:32:23 – 00:32:28
And if they say, you know, doing this well as can be expected, I’ll say, okay.
Denise Schonwald
00:32:28 – 00:32:31
Just want you to know I was thinking about you. Maybe that’s enough.
Victoria Volk
00:32:32 – 00:32:49
Right. What is one thing that you would like to scream to the world or wish that people knew about just grief in general, your personal grief that you’ve experienced? You had mentioned before we started recording, you have lost your parents, but what would you like to scream to the world?
Denise Schonwald
00:32:50 – 00:33:17
With any time someone comes into your life that I would say touches your soul, when they leave this earth, there’s going to be suffering and grief. That’s just a natural part of it. I try personally not to pull in and suffer by myself. These are times where I can connect with other people. These are times when other people will come in to support me, and I need to receive that.
Denise Schonwald
00:33:18 – 00:33:39
Certainly, with grief and any sort of suffering, there’s meaning. I think about my parents and some of the wonderful things that they taught me and left me as a legacy. You know, something’s not so great, but I can let those go. And to me, that’s very meaningful. My my sister and I talk about my mom all the time because she had some, like, silly habits.
Denise Schonwald
00:33:39 – 00:34:03
And then we’ll notice ourselves doing the same silly thing, and we connect, and we think of her in a positive light. I certainly, when I leave this earth, don’t want my children every time they think of me to burst into tears. No. I certainly know that they’ll grieve me, but I also hope that I’ve left a lot of goodness in them that they will think of me and smile, say some nice things. That’s my hope anyway.
Victoria Volk
00:34:04 – 00:34:14
I’m pretty sure my kids will probably say, you know, she was pretty weird. They say I’m weird now. So I take that as a compliment though.
Denise Schonwald
00:34:14 – 00:34:14
Yeah. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk
00:34:15 – 00:34:32
So throughout your career, I mean, as you know, a critical care nurse, like what were some of the things before you had these tools and before you went to school and back to school for mental health, what were some of the things that you personally leaned on and that you’ve brought into your practice and kind of incorporated?
Denise Schonwald
00:34:33 – 00:34:51
For me personally, self-care is key. I start every day with about 15 minutes of meditation just to sort of keep get myself grounded and sort of to find my center, if you will. I work hard, but I also take time. I exercise every day. For me, that’s something that I really need to do.
Denise Schonwald
00:34:52 – 00:35:11
Just just really helps me just disconnect for a little while. I’m very careful with my screen time. My first hour of the day, no screen time, and I shut it down a couple hours before I go to bed just so that I can my mind can take a little bit of a break. I’m a big proponent of acupuncture. Reiki, I love quite a bit.
Denise Schonwald
00:35:11 – 00:35:23
Massage, not saying you need to do these every week, but sporadically, depending upon how you’re feeling, incorporate some of these wonderful practices for just overall health and healing.
Victoria Volk
00:35:23 – 00:35:32
Did you start doing these things as you were a critical care nurse too in the within in the 30 years or just in recent years?
Denise Schonwald
00:35:32 – 00:35:52
I had a defining moment one night in the ICU. I was looking around at all of the patients that we had, and I realized some were just at the end of their lives. They were, you know, in their nineties and maybe had a heart attack and so forth. But most of the patients that we had sort of put themselves there. They neglected their body.
Denise Schonwald
00:35:52 – 00:36:19
They were stressed out. They were smoking, diabetes, and I made a commitment to myself that if I were ever in the ICU, it wouldn’t be because I did something to contribute to that. And then when I went over to mental health, I felt the same thing. I was like, boy, you know, we me included, and I really start to invested, invest more in my mental health. And I realized that when we don’t we’re not mentally healthy, we’re eventually going to become physically ill.
Denise Schonwald
00:36:20 – 00:36:30
And so I understand how important it is for me to manage. And this is my responsibility, my own stress and wellness, so that I can stay healthy and happy.
Victoria Volk
00:36:31 – 00:36:48
You bring up a good point in that. Well, it just brings up the feeling in me that you can have, let’s say you’ve been you have a there’s a couple they’ve been married 30, 40 years or, or even not. Let’s say it’s just been maybe 5 or 10, like or significant other. You don’t have to be married. Right?
Denise Schonwald
00:36:48 – 00:36:48
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:48 – 00:37:35
In partnership with someone. And you see these people just like one or the other, or maybe even both, just kind of going about life and just eating whatever they eat and drink whatever they eat, drink. And like you said, perpetuating these the disease that’s probably slowly manifesting until it becomes a flow full-blown heart attack or stroke or whatever the case may be that lands them in the hospital or in a medical crisis or terminal illness or whatever the case may be. And then one of them becomes a caregiver.
Denise Schonwald
00:37:35 – 00:37:35
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:37:35 – 00:37:41
So for those listening who may find themselves as a caregiver, who are looking at their significant other who has put themselves in that position and now feel maybe anger,
Denise Schonwald
00:37:42 – 00:37:42
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:37:42 – 00:37:42
resentment.
Denise Schonwald
00:37:43 – 00:37:43
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:37:43 – 00:37:46
And to reconcile that as a caregiver, like it’s like you’re holding the both the reality and the grief.
Denise Schonwald
00:37:46 – 00:37:46
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:37:47 – 00:38:02
The reality of what you’re looking at in the situation of what it is and how that person got there. And then also, but I love this person. I wanna care for them.
Victoria Volk
00:38:02 – 00:38:02
Like,
Denise Schonwald
00:38:02 – 00:38:02
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:38:02 – 00:38:05
I think that’s a really difficult challenge for caregivers.
Denise Schonwald
00:38:06 – 00:38:47
I agree. And what I suggest for people that are going through that is to consider having a therapist just to sort of, you know, catharsis or venting with somebody that can help us in coping skills can be very very healing. It’s just hard when we have to go through it alone, particularly when they’ve got some sort of, like, dementia or something like that. It’s you know, this is why these support groups are so important that we can sort of help each other. There’s no way of eliminating it, or it’s just getting some help to just sort of cope through it, cope with it, and also get other people that can help and support as needed.
Denise Schonwald
00:38:48 – 00:38:58
But I know my husband is is 15 years older than I am, and as his health has started to decline, I have reached out to my own therapist more frequently just for support.
Victoria Volk
00:38:58 – 00:39:15
Let’s say you see where the train is going, and they’re just not wanting to take the power back within themselves. They’re not taking ownership of the situation. They’re not doing what you would hope they would be doing. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people in this situation listening. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:39:16 – 00:39:21
What do you do in that situation? Because you can’t make somebody start working out. You can’t make somebody seek mental health.
Denise Schonwald
00:39:21 – 00:39:21
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:39:22 – 00:39:27
You can’t make somebody else do these things.
Denise Schonwald
00:39:27 – 00:39:32
Correct. And what what I see down here in Florida, we have a lot of people that obviously that retire and come down to Florida.
Victoria Volk
00:39:32 – 00:39:32
Mhmm.
Denise Schonwald
00:39:33 – 00:40:03
But what I see typically is that neither husband or wife or partner has really prepared for sort of the end or the latter stages of life. For example, they have 2 or 3 homes, you know, and they’re 80 years old. I mean, that’s and they’ve never really downsized and so forth. Then one or the other gets sick, and the one person is not only caregiving but now has the 2 homes, you know, 1 in Michigan and 1 in Florida.
Denise Schonwald
00:40:03 – 00:40:38
And so what I say to them is, as you’re starting to age, downsize and get something manageable, manageable for 2 or 1 because that may happen. But there’s some things that we can do regardless of what our spouse chooses so that we’re in a better position, maybe financially and logistically and so forth so that we’re preparing for this. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve met with people that with the 3 homes. This is, you know, it’s really unreasonable at 80.
Victoria Volk
00:40:39 – 00:40:44
Like you mentioned though, you made a statement something to the effect of planning for retirement or later years or the golden years ho you know,
Denise Schonwald
00:40:44 – 00:40:44
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:40:45 – 00:41:00
that time period in your life, we you know, so many people spend so much time financially preparing for that, but you don’t think about what do I want my health to be
Denise Schonwald
00:41:00 – 00:41:00
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:41:01 – 00:41:02
At that stage.
Denise Schonwald
00:41:02 – 00:41:02
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:41:03 – 00:41:17
And what’s in my power and control to address that starting today so that when I get to that stage, I can enjoy it. Right. Because what’s the point of getting to that period of your life if you are sick and you can’t enjoy it?
Denise Schonwald
00:41:17 – 00:41:17
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:41:17 – 00:41:19
And I think yeah.
Denise Schonwald
00:41:19 – 00:41:57
And one of the things that I work with people in is when we become physically ill, depending upon what’s happening, that has started on the emotional energetic level. So certain emotions will play out physically. And what happens is, you know, we’re so afraid to deal with I don’t, guilt or shame or trauma or so forth, but eventually they manifest physically. I cannot tell you how many patients that we had in the ICU, and they would say, can you believe I’ve had a heart attack? And I would look at their chart, and I’d be like, you know, I sort of can.
Denise Schonwald
00:41:57 – 00:42:11
I mean, you have a lot of risk factors and you don’t take care of yourself. And yet, you know, we think that just because we don’t wanna recognize it or acknowledge it, it’s not gonna take have an impact on us, and it really does.
Victoria Volk
00:42:12 – 00:42:14
And everybody around them.
Denise Schonwald
00:42:15 – 00:42:29
Yes. Yes. And so I have to think, not only is it gonna affect me, but it’s gonna affect my spouse, it’s gonna affect my children. And you know, we have to take responsibility for that. But many people don’t, unfortunately.
Victoria Volk
00:42:30 – 00:42:44
No. What is one tip that you would give? I mean, you’ve shared a lot of tips, but what’s one tip that you would give to someone listening who is hurting, whether it’s watching someone else suffer who is grieving or whether they’re grieving themselves.
Denise Schonwald
00:42:44 – 00:43:02
Mhmm. Even when life is going fairly well. So we’re going through our developmental stages and so forth. At every stage, it’s a struggle, because we haven’t done it before. And once the kids go off to college or we retire or we get a new job or whatever.
Denise Schonwald
00:43:04 – 00:43:33
I highly recommend I started to see a therapist every now and then back in my twenties. Because even again, when there’s nothing really particularly wrong, certain stages are very difficult for me. When my husband retired, that was a major change because he was home all the time. I’m still working, and it for me, that was a struggle. And I really felt like I needed somebody just to other than my sister and my friends, and that’s not their job, to be my therapist, but just talk through it.
Denise Schonwald
00:43:34 – 00:43:53
And I highly recommend everybody have a therapist, not just because I am one, because they’re very very helpful. Find somebody that you connect with and find somebody that can work with you when you’re really going through a tough time so that it doesn’t play out physically and affect your life and others around you.
Victoria Volk
00:43:53 – 00:44:09
Well and when would you rather find a therapist? When you are in the emotional throes of something and it’s like, feels very immediate, like stat important or
Denise Schonwald
00:44:09 – 00:44:09
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:09- 00:44:14
When you can kinda ease yourself into the experience. Because for a lot of people, they may not never have had an experience of working with a therapist too.
Denise Schonwald
00:44:15 – 00:44:27
Yes. And it may be take a couple till they find somebody that’s right for them. People will say to me all the time, can you recommend a good therapist? And I go, a good therapist is somebody that is right for you. So that’s very important.
Denise Schonwald
00:44:27 – 00:44:34
And you’re right. Let’s not wait till we’re right in the throes of crisis, and then we’re scrambling to try to find somebody.
Victoria Volk
00:44:35 – 00:44:49
What would you say to people who don’t really think therapy is for them because they just don’t wanna, like, just talk about I just don’t wanna talk about talk, talk, talk. Right?
Denise Schonwald
00:44:49 – 00:44:49
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:50 – 00:44:58
Like, what is your perspective of that? Like, do you core incorporate other things or, like, action steps and things into your practice?
Denise Schonwald
00:44:58 – 00:45:22
One of the things that I recommend for everybody is always have a self-help book around. I mean, there’s thousands of them, and I always carry a book with me. And I’m I read and read and read. And, again, 1, 2 pages at a time because I sort of have a busy schedule and so forth. But there’s always some advice and some keys and some ways to cope that can be very very helpful.
Denise Schonwald
00:45:22 – 00:45:33
So start that way where you start to just learn about yourself and emotions and how they affect the body and whatever you’re interested in meditation and so forth, and then move from there.
Victoria Volk
00:45:34 – 00:46:14
That has actually been one of the catalysts for my growth is reading self-help books because at least to you know, it’s like one book can lead to the next book to lead to the next book or you end up down this rabbit hole where you learn maybe a new perspective. And, you know, it just it really it’s like, you didn’t get to where you are overnight. You’re not gonna get to where you want to go overnight. So you might as well just take these incremental steps. And if it’s reading 2 pages at a time, like you said, I mean, that’s it’s has a camp compound effect,
Denise Schonwald
00:46:15 – 00:46:15
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:46:15 – 00:46:17
you know, just like grief and trauma, and it has this compound effect, but we can chip away at that.
Victoria Volk
00:46:18 – 00:46:22
I think by doing the things that you’ve talked about and mentioned,
Denise Schonwald
00:46:22 – 00:46:22
Mhmm
Victoria Volk
00:46:23 – 00:46:23
in this episode.
Denise Schonwald
00:46:23 – 00:46:43
Plus it helps us when we connect with other people. I can’t tell you how many times I’ll be out and about and somebody will say thank you for recommending that book. And I have no memory of and I go, what book was that? And they go, oh, this book, it was so helpful. I rec I gave it to my sister and this is how we the power of our ripple in a positive way.
Denise Schonwald
00:46:43 – 00:46:43
Mhmm.
Denise Schonwald
00:46:43 – 00:46:57
Other than complaining or you know, connecting with people just over problems, we’re actually connecting with people and recommending books and then talking about the books to each other and what we liked and what was helpful and so forth.
Victoria Volk
00:46:57 – 00:47:02
What is your grief and the grief that you’ve helped others work through taught you?
Denise Schonwald
00:47:04 – 00:47:26
I have a very good friend that lost her son at 16, so it sort of was a freak accident. And so now he’s passed away a little over 10 years. And I said to her one night, how do you deal with it now that it’s 10 years? You know, it’s not like it’s been 2 months and so forth. And she said, you know, she said, we’ll never get over it.
Denise Schonwald
00:47:26 – 00:47:50
She said, but we’ve learned to live peacefully next to it. And I thought that that was such an interesting way to describe. She said, you know, it’s just something that’s always gonna be there, and you have to learn to be at peace with it living next to you. It’s a wonderful question to ask people who are going who have are grieving 5 years down the road. Ask them, well, what is it like?
Denise Schonwald
00:47:50 – 00:48:08
Like, what is what are the challenges 5 years later or 15 years later and so forth? It’s something that not only is helpful for them and also helpful for us. I never forgot that that’s how she described it, and I thought that was so beautifully said.
Victoria Volk
00:48:08 – 00:48:21
One thing I talk about with my own experiences, so I lost my dad when I was 8 to cancer. So he was sick for almost 2 years before that. So I really didn’t have much of a childhood.
Denise Schonwald
00:48:21 – 00:48:21
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:48:21 – 00:48:28
Had to grow up really fast. And my grandma had died the year before that my mom, my mom’s mom, and then my sister moved away.
Victoria Volk
00:48:28 – 00:48:49
So there was just a lot of change and trauma and things happen very back to back in the early part of my life. And one thing I say to people is that, especially with children who experienced grief or trauma in childhood is that they’re gonna grow up with it.
Denise Schonwald
00:48:49 – 00:48:49
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:48:49 – 00:49:06
So and one thing I hate that people say is that children are resilient. Like, I can’t stand that when people say that because children don’t have a choice. And they just they may be just are able to adapt a little bit more easily than the adults because we don’t have a capacity at that young age to wrap our head completely around it.
Denise Schonwald
00:49:06 – 00:49:06
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:49:06 – 00:49:28
And so we, we adapt and how, because we’re imaginative. Right? As children were more imaginative.
Denise Schonwald
00:49:06 – 00:49:06
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:49:06 – 00:49:28
And so I created a lot of stories in order to adapt to my experience. And so people saw that as resilient and saw that I was fine and I was adapting well and but, you know, that stuff has stuck with you.
Victoria Volk
00:49:28 – 00:50:29
It you carry it with you and you grow up with it and it changes over time.
Denise Schonwald
00:49:29 – 00:49:29
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:49:30 – 00:49:49
And that’s what I want people to understand about child grievers is that it will never leave them. It is, you know, and there’s so many people too. Like, I can recognize when I come across an adult who hasn’t had probably a lot of loss in their life. They haven’t had an experience that has completely flipped their life upside down or completely changed life for them,
Denise Schonwald
00:49:49 – 00:49:49
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:49:50 – 00:50:06
it’s easier for me to see, you know, they and I think that’s what helps build emotional intelligence too is grief and trauma.
Victoria Volk
00:50:06 – 00:50:09
I mean, would you kinda say that in a way?
Denise Schonwald
00:50:09 – 00:50:23
Yeah. And I always think where I’m going through it, why me? And then I think, well, why not me? Yeah. Because we, you know, we think that that’s something somebody else should should experience. But I realized that it’s important for me to experience too because it’s very very painful.
Denise Schonwald
00:50:23 – 00:50:33
And it also helps me get have a new understanding of other people that are going through it. But you’re right. You have to learn to look next to it because it doesn’t go away.
Victoria Volk
00:50:34 – 00:50:37
Yeah. What gives you hope for the future?
Denise Schonwald
00:50:37 – 00:50:56
I absolutely love what I do, and I feel it’s very fulfilling. It’s also very challenging. And for me, certainly I my passion is I just finished my second children’s book. I write books. That’s sort of my ministry.
Denise Schonwald
00:50:57 – 00:51:07
I enjoy sharing what I know about mental health. I hope to help people live happier, more fulfilling lives. And so that is sort of why I’m here.
Victoria Volk
00:51:09 – 00:51:29
I love that. In the last paragraph of your book, I just want to read it because I absolutely loved it. It was one of my favorite parts of the book. Remember the mind does what you tell it to do. If you say, I choose to take care of myself because I’m worth it, your mind will be the best assistant you could hire.
Victoria Volk
00:51:29 – 00:51:39
It will help you flow through your day in with ease and less pain, suffering, and stress. Our perception is our reality. Make the choice to help others by first helping yourself.
Denise Schonwald
00:51:39 – 00:51:39
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:51:40 – 00:51:56
I think that beautifully wraps up our episode. But I do wanna ask you about one more thing because I found it interesting in what you also incorporate into your practice is Henry your dog.
Denise Schonwald
00:51:56 – 00:52:02
Yes. Yes. In fact, I keep snapping my fingers because he’s growling a lot.
Victoria Volk
00:52:02 – 00:52:03
He wants your attention, I suppose.
Denise Schonwald
00:52:03 – 00:52:12
He does. He does. Yes. I started my practice initially with a therapy dog by the name of Max, and he worked with me. He we had to put him down when he was 15.
Denise Schonwald
00:52:13 – 00:52:27
And you know, it’s just such a wonderful part of the practice. And so Henry is now his successor and people just love to come in. And of course he loves his job and that has been, it just helps people feel more at peace.
Victoria Volk
00:52:28 – 00:52:35
Since you brought up Max, can you discuss a little bit briefly how you navigated that pet loss of
Denise Schonwald
00:52:35 – 00:52:50
That was, that was a tough one. He was the dog that we got when the children were little, and now the children are all, you know, out of the house and married and often. And then he worked with me for years years years. And so, you know, when he passed, it was like I had lost to Lynn.
Victoria Volk
00:52:50 – 00:52:50
Mhmm.
Denise Schonwald
00:52:51 – 00:52:53
Talk about being in the waiting room.
Denise Schonwald
00:52:53 – 00:53:12
I mean, I didn’t I had Henry at the time. He was a puppy, and I just didn’t know how to move forward. And I had difficulty sort of sitting through a session and so forth. And and again, you know, he was a very important part of my life and and had to sort of work through that.
Victoria Volk
00:53:14 – 00:53:23
How did you work through that? Because I know there’s a lot of people listening that probably have experienced pet loss. I know I’ve talked pet loss has come up a lot in recent months for me.
Denise Schonwald
00:53:23 – 00:53:56
And there are times where I still struggle. I have this little picture that I kiss before I go to sleep every night and so forth. And I just, you know, he was, he taught me a lot. In fact, my first book, Healing Your Body by Mastering Your Mind, the reason that I wrote that book was I dedicated it to him because I felt like he was such an important part of the practice and I wanted his leg you know, I wanted him to live on. And so I sat down and I wrote the book and dedicated to him, and that book has been very well received.
Denise Schonwald
00:53:56 – 00:53:58
So that was one of the ways that I honored him.
Victoria Volk
00:53:59 – 00:54:02
Well, and I’m sure it was very therapeutic for you to write it.
Denise Schonwald
00:54:02 – 00:54:15
Mhmm. Yeah. I wrote a little bit at the end about how we got him and how we named him and how he was very instrumental in our practice and so forth. And so we’re a little bit about him, and people love that part of the book.
Victoria Volk
00:54:16 – 00:54:19
So how did you know that you were ready for another dog?
Denise Schonwald
00:54:19 – 00:54:45
Well, it’s interesting. He was getting older and I wasn’t sure that he was really wanted to practice with me anymore. We had a little dog door, which I do in my office, and he was starting to come in less and less. And I thought, you know, maybe I’ll get another puppy and see if he can teach the puppy how to be a therapy dog. But by the time the Henry came in, he really was getting very sickly and he just really didn’t live too much longer.
Denise Schonwald
00:54:46 – 00:55:02
And that was really tough too, having a puppy and then also a dog sort of toward the end of his life. But I just he was such a valuable part of not only my practice, but to me. You know, he was he was just a real special little guy.
Victoria Volk
00:55:03 – 00:55:07
Well, and I’m sure to your patients as well, the people that you worked with, your clients.
Denise Schonwald
00:55:07 – 00:55:18
Hundreds of emails and texts and cards after he passed. And and that just also reminded me of how important it is for us to connect to each other and support each other when we’re going through grief.
Victoria Volk
00:55:19 – 00:55:38
In a recent episode too, I was saying to I mentioned weird pet loss come had come up and I said, you know, even if people listening can’t, they’re in a place where they can’t have a pet or they don’t feel comfortable getting a pet because it’s maybe more care than what they can handle at the time or whatever. Just get a plant, get something to nurture,
Denise Schonwald
00:55:39 – 00:55:39
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:55:39 – 00:55:43
you know, give that, give yourself something to nurture. And even maybe that small thing can help you
Denise Schonwald
00:55:43 – 00:55:43
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:55:43 – 00:55:44
create some purpose
Denise Schonwald
00:55:44 – 00:55:44
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:55:45 – 00:55:52
in your day. You know, if you’re feeling a little low, if you’re
Denise Schonwald
00:55:52 – 00:55:52
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:55:52 – 00:55:53
yeah.
Denise Schonwald
00:55:53 – 00:56:09
You’re very fulfilling. In fact, if when people sort of look me up after this episode, if they’d like to email me, I’d be happy to send them a copy of one of my books. That’s just a thank you for listening today. We’ve talked to us about some really great topics.
Victoria Volk
00:56:10 – 00:56:13
Yeah. And where can people find you to connect with you?
Denise Schonwald
00:56:14 – 00:56:33
My website is the best, deniseschonewall.com. In there, I have a little 10 question mental health quiz, which is also very fun to do, just to sort of see where you are. My books are listed. I have 3 currently. I’d be happy to send someone a copy of one of them if you email me.
Denise Schonwald
00:56:33 – 00:56:48
If you’d like an appointment, I’m licensed both in the state of Florida and nationally. So I see clients all over the United States. If somebody would just like to try a session and see how it works out, be more than happy. My calendar is online.
Victoria Volk
00:56:48 – 00:56:50
Wonderful. I will put the link in the show notes, and
Denise Schonwald
00:56:50 – 00:56:50
That’s great.
Victoria Volk
00:56:51 – 00:56:53
Thank you so much for everything that you shared today.
Denise Schonwald
00:56:53 – 00:56:55
You’re welcome. I enjoyed it.
Victoria Volk
00:56:55 – 00:57:01
Great. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grief, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast, Miscarriage, Pespective, Pregnancy & Infant Loss |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR).
Today on Grieving Voices, I had the honor of speaking with Sabrina Fletcher, a compassionate pregnancy loss doula who brings solace to parents facing the heart-wrenching decision of terminating a wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. Sabrina bravely shared her personal journey and how she’s turned her pain into purpose by supporting others through similar grief.
Key Points Discussed:
- The surprising prevalence of TFMR compared to stillbirths and the taboo surrounding it.
- The emotional turmoil and quick decisions forced upon parents facing unfavorable prenatal diagnoses.
- The grief journey taken by both Sabrina and her family following their loss, including how they each processed their emotions differently.
- Challenges within the healthcare system that fail to provide adequate support for those undergoing TFMR.
- Suggestions on improving medical care experiences during such sensitive times, including specialized bereavement care similar to practices in England.
TFMR is often shrouded in silence and taboo, but it’s more common than many realize. Sabrina advocates for open conversation and emotional support that upholds the dignity of those making these tough choices out of deep love for their children.
Our discussion also highlighted how even young children experience loss deeply and need acknowledgment in their grieving process—a powerful reminder not to underestimate our little ones’ emotional worlds.
Sabrina emphasizes breaking generational patterns by openly discussing grief rather than suppressing feelings – an approach shaped in contrast to what she experienced growing up, where losses were dealt with privately behind closed doors.
Remember: Transforming your grief doesn’t require grand gestures; small steps are just as significant.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Navigating the Silent Sorrow: Understanding and Supporting Termination for Medical Reasons (TFMR)
In a world where discussions about loss are often shrouded in silence, there’s a particular kind of grief that remains even more hidden—termination for medical reasons (TFMR). Today, we delve into this sensitive topic with insights from Sabrina Fletcher, a pregnancy loss doula who has turned her personal pain into a beacon of support for others facing similar heartbreak.
The Unspoken Grief of TFMR
While stillbirth is recognized as an agonizing experience warranting sympathy and support, TFMR is three times more common yet seldom discussed. Parents making the excruciating decision to end a wanted pregnancy due to severe health risks face not only profound sorrow but also societal stigmatization. This lack of understanding can leave bereaved parents feeling isolated in their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher knows this all too well. Her journey through TFMR led her to become an advocate and guide for those walking this lonely path. Through peer support, one-on-one sessions, workshops—and now our conversation on Grieving Voices—Sabrina offers solace by helping parents honor their love for the child they lost while finding light amidst darkness.
From Personal Loss to Providing Support
The taboo surrounding TFMR means many do not receive the compassionate care they desperately need—a reality Sabrina experienced firsthand when she had to make that impossible choice between her own health and her pregnancy. However, instead of succumbing to despair, she channeled her anguish into action.
Recognizing the void in supportive services during such losses inspired Sabrina’s mission: creating spaces free from judgment where individuals could share their unique stories of grief whether it be from pregnancy loss or other life-altering experiences like suicide or long-term caregiving.
Adapting Grief Support in Times of Crisis
When COVID-19 struck, it compelled many services—including grief support—to transition online. Although initially unplanned, virtual platforms have proven invaluable by fostering international communities united by shared experiences without geographical boundaries.
On these platforms like Instagram and Facebook groups created by Sabrina herself; people found comfort knowing they were not alone regardless if they were seeking help after losing someone close or grappling with anticipatory grief—the emotional suffering felt before an impending loss occurs.
A Framework For Healing
During our discussion on Grieving Voices podcast episode featuring Victoria V. Sabrina shared a practical approach she uses with clients navigating their mourning process:
1. **Acknowledge:** First comes recognizing physical manifestations associated with bereavement without rushing to interpret them.
2. **Assign:** Once ready emotionally; pinpointing specific feelings linked with these bodily sensations allows individuals clarity regarding their internal state.
3. **Align:** Finally taking steps towards healing whether through acts self-care or external efforts such as advocacy based upon acknowledged emotions provides direction amidst confusion brought about by sorrowful events.
This framework isn’t just theory—it’s been lived out through actions like therapy sessions community engagement daily check-ins friends going through similar situations—all contributing toward managing complex emotions following another pregnancy post-loss period fraught fear joy alike intertwining unpredictably within expectant parents’ hearts minds alike.
Transformative Power Compassion Action
Perhaps most importantly what resonates throughout conversations resources provided via platforms like [thetfmrddoula. com](http://thetfmrddoula.com) is notion transformative power compassion action hold when dealing kinds tragedies. No gesture is too small nor any step insignificant When comes to transforming raw painful emotions something meaningful tangible both individual collective level. Every story every voice adds richness tapestry human resilience empathy growth In closing let us remember words echoed Victoria herself “Treat me gently you would any grieving parent” encapsulating core message extending kindness understanding everyone traversing difficult terrain loss Remember open your heart truly transform your life. Much love
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:32
Thank you for tuning to grieving voices. I am your host, Victoria V. And today my guest is Sabrina Fletcher. She guides bereaved parents through the heartbreak of losing a wanted pregnancy to a termination for medical reasons or also known as TFMR with groups 1 on 1 and workshops. As a pregnancy loss doula who’s been there herself, She companions people as they find the light in their stories and self-expression and the deep love they carry for their babies.
Victoria Volk
00:00:32 – 00:01:25
Thank you so much for being open enough to share about this on my podcast today. I was excited to hear about this because I, you know, you even said that it’s, 3 times more common than stillbirth,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:00:40 – 00:00:40
uh-hummm..
Victoria Volk
00:00:40 – 00:01:18
which was a surprising statistic to me because, I mean, I’d heard that yes, people can, you know, terminate a pregnancy because of medical reasons, but I didn’t realize there was like, an acronym for it
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:18 – 00:01:19
You’re right.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:21
there was an underbelly or undercurrent of, like, taboo or, you know
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:21 – 00:01:21
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:01:21 – 00:01:23
about it and this yeah. That so I’m I think it’s a loss that is not talked about, like you said, very much.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:23 – 00:01:23
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:23 – 00:01:25
I haven’t heard it on I don’t listen to a ton of other grief podcasts just because I kinda wanna stay in my own lane. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:25 – 00:01:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:01:25 – 00:01:42
I’m excited to share this with my listeners broaden our perspective of grief and, talk about it. So thank you so much for being open to sharing your journey, which brings us to 2018. And do you mind starting there?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:01:43 – 00:02:05
Sure. Thank you so much, Victoria. And thank you for having me on to talk about this piece of pregnancy loss that is silenced and shamed. And in some spaces, it’s becoming a little bit more openly spoken about, and I think that as more people speak about it, more people understand. Oh, okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:05 – 00:02:16
Yes. This is another type of pregnancy loss. That is what if they went through it themselves. That is what I really experienced. And like you said, I went through it myself in 2018.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:16 – 00:02:53
It was early 2018 and we had a bad ultrasound result where we could see and the doctor was showing us the different abnormalities and what was wrong with our baby. And one of the conditions there were various things that were showing up. One of the conditions was swelling in the head and the chest and the back of the neck. And since it was pretty much all over the body and the torso, he was calling it hydrops. So that’s just the name for fetal swelling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:02:55 – 00:03:32
And that along with other things, you know, we went home and I was researching, and I also found out and he told me at that ultrasound. He said you know, if you decide to continue the pregnancy, this is now a high-risk pregnancy, but I didn’t really know the extent of that. I found out that high drops can cause similar swelling in the pregnant person and they call it mirror syndrome. So it could have caused harm to my organs as well. It’s just very devastating because this was a wanted baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:32 – 00:03:49
I took this whole fertility course. I was tracking my cycles. I knew my ovulation date. We wanted her in our family, but then when we found out she was sick and also the condition that she was carrying could have harmed my health. We did decide to terminate the pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:03:51 – 00:03:56
And you had another child. You have already had one child. Correct? Or did I read that?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:03:56 – 00:04:02
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. So my oldest daughter was 4 years old at the time.
Victoria Volk
00:04:03 – 00:04:14
And so just a matter of, I mean, trying to put this in perspective for people listening, you still have to function on the day-to-day and care for a 4-year-old.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:15 – 00:04:15
Yeah. Function.
Victoria Volk
00:04:16 – 00:04:18
Right? After receiving this news.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:18 – 00:04:18
Mmm..
Victoria Volk
00:04:18 – 00:04:28
And how did you like? How do you what did those early days and weeks looked like? And then how long did it take you to come? Like, how long did you give yourself to
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:29 – 00:04:30
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:30 – 00:04:35
come to that decision? And was your husband also on board right off the right out of the gate too?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:35 – 00:04:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:04:36 – 00:04:40
Because you were maybe sometimes that could be a conflict for some relationships.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:04:41 – 00:05:35
Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t an easy decision. I mean, it ended up being clear after we did enough research and talked to the doctors and I was looking at different medical journals and all the research that I could get my hands on that wasn’t behind a paywall, you know, because I’m not a medical researcher myself. I don’t I don’t have all of those subscriptions. So what what I could find and what I could see, and also finding other people’s stories online, it led me to see that this is also a compassionate choice to decide to induce early really, and help her pass peacefully instead of coming to term, going to term, or possibly not even making it that far and would she die in utero, or would we have to have some crazy it’s not even a c section.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:05:35 – 00:06:09
It’s called a exit strategy where they, like, take everything out all at once. And, you know, it’s very hard on both the baby and the and the pregnant person and and she was already sick. So, you know, could she get through that kind of medical trauma to even then be, you know, with all the tubes and all the life support and everything, and then how long or you know, or would I hold her in my arms as she died? You know, there there’s really no right way to go about it because there are people in my community. I went on to become a pregnancy loss doula.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:10 – 00:06:39
I’ve always wanted to be a doula. But then when this happened to me, I realized, oh, this is the place in birth that I really want to focus on. I really want to support people who are going through this. And some of those families in one pregnancy, like, maybe they carried some sort of genetic something, disposition or disorder, whatever you would like to call it. And maybe some of their children do carry it or maybe they do bring some pregnancies to term and, you know, their babies die in their arms.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:06:39 – 00:07:06
And then in another pregnancy, they decide to terminate. There’s really there’s no there’s no right there’s no right way. It’s just whatever feels best for you and your family in that moment. And that’s how we made our decision. We just felt like that was the best for this baby, for my body, and the fact that we already had a living daughter that we were also taking care of.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:06 – 00:07:17
And there’s also another grief story in our family. My husband lost his mom when he was about 6 years old. And so he was like, woah. No. No.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:17 – 00:07:32
We cannot lose you. You have to be here for our older daughter. So that really became a big part of the decision as well. It wasn’t overnight. You know, it took us a few days, but we were also up against a crunch.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:07:32 – 00:08:00
So, with the restrictive laws to have an abortion, no questions asked, we had a week. So we didn’t really have that much time to decide. So we had to make this decision very quickly. I do feel like there are pieces of my decision that were taken from me. I wasn’t really given all of there wasn’t enough time to get all the information that I would have liked to get.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:01 – 00:08:19
You know, I would have liked to have an amniocentesis, but we were only 13 weeks along at that point. And you have to wait till 16, 18 weeks. And, I did ask the doctor, you know, when he was telling us all the bad news about an amniocentesis. It could have came back clear too. So that’s the thing.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:19 – 00:08:35
Like, we were already seeing how sick she was. But you know, it is good to know all of the medical information before making, you know, a drastic medical decision like this. So it’s really very very awful.
Victoria Volk
00:08:36 – 00:08:40
I’m just thinking about like someone who’s having to go through this and make this decision or decides to make this decision. And yet, you know when you often think about when we hear the word abortion, right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:08:40 – 00:08:40
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:08:41 – 00:09:10
we hear the child does not they don’t want the child. Right? It’s for whatever reason, whatever the circumstances, like they choose that they’re, they’re not, it’s not a good time for them for whatever reason. We don’t think that someone who’s sitting in the waiting room is there because they really want the baby
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:10 – 00:09:10
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:10 – 00:09:12
and there’s a medical reason why they’re there or, you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:12 – 00:09:12
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:09:12 – 00:09:13
a circumstance like yourself.
Victoria Volk
00:09:13 – 00:09:25
And I think that’s a really miscarriage. That’s a miscarriage of grief. And it also is for the person who is choosing that for themselves, because I mean like it or not, there is going to be grief there involved.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:25 – 00:09:25
Uhumm..
Victoria Volk
00:09:2 – 00:09:40
You know? Even if it’s not, you know, felt the full weight of it in the moment, even years later, I have no doubts that there are women that experienced grief for many years later.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:09:40 – 00:10:05
Mhmm. But Yeah. I definitely agree. And after going through this experience myself and having an abortion for reasons that were just so filled with love and compassion, And I never been through what I guess we could call a a lifestyle abortion but I kind of had those misconceptions too. It’s like, oh, it just means they just they don’t want this baby.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:05 – 00:10:23
Like, this isn’t a wanted baby. But I realized, I think all of those decisions are made with the greatest amount of love and respect as well. It’s like, I don’t want this life for this child. There’s still so much love in that decision. Or like, I can’t do this to a child right now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:23 – 00:10:38
Like, that’s so much love. So, so much love. And, yes, you’re right. Of course, there will be grief there. Many people do experience grief with these decisions, whether it’s for medical reasons, whether it’s for lifestyle reasons.
Victoria Volk
00:10:39 – 00:10:51
What do you wish would have been different about that experience and what do you think needs to change in how women are supported
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:48 – 00:10:48
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:10:49 – 00:10:51
In the medical setting in particular.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:10:51 – 00:11:19
Yeah. Yeah. So there are some people who I like to look to England. They have a pretty good system set up when it’s going to be an abortion for medical reasons, for fetal anomaly, or the pregnant person’s health, they’re earmarked in a certain direction, and they end up going with bereavement midwives. So these are midwives who are grief-informed, hopefully, trauma informed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:11:20 – 00:11:59
They, you know, they see the family. They see the baby as a baby. They see it as palliative hospice care, which it really is. It’s it’s end-of-life care for that baby and for or to help the the mother or the pregnant person, you know not die. And they help people to get footprints or like, make a scrapbook or you know, they’ll bring in a chaplain or they’ll help you with the funeral arrangements.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:00 – 00:12:18
You know, it’s a it’s a death of a family member. And I think it’s that piece that was missing in my experience. Because of the laws, I ended up going to an abortion clinic, which put me in the box of lifestyle abortion. My husband was there with me, and we had so many tears and we asked for a private room. They said, oh, no.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:18 – 00:12:39
We don’t do that thing. We were asking for these things that other people get in some places. And in some hospitals worldwide, they will do this sort of bereavement care where they have a special room that’s on another floor, so you don’t hear the laboring women and then babies crying. We didn’t have that. We didn’t have a special extra room.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:12:39 – 00:13:03
We didn’t have a bereavement midwife. We didn’t have someone informed in grief. We didn’t have anyone saying, I’m sorry for your loss. They’re really very simple, compassionate things that I wish I would have had. The doctor who helped us, did understand our whole situation, and he did say, I’m, you know, I’m so sorry for your loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:03 – 00:13:37
So that meant so much. You know? It’s just those few words, like really seeing us as bereaved parents. And I asked for footprints and he was able to get them. So some pieces of my story do have some respect and honor and reverence in it, but a lot of it I mean, the counselor that they had on hand, I kept talking about grief and, like, asking for grief resources, and she was like, I don’t really know.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:13:40 – 00:13:59
And I thought, oh, you know, I thought, like, I can’t be the only one who’s coming here because their baby is sick and they’re grieving and they’re having to end a wanted pregnancy. But I guess maybe I was or I don’t know. So those are the things that I wish would have been different in my story.
Victoria Volk
00:13:59 – 00:14:00
Well, you know now that you weren’t because it’s more common than
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:00 – 00:14:00
Yes
Victoria Volk
00:14:01 – 00:14:06
3 times more common than stillbirth and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:06 – 00:14:08
Amazing.
Speaker 1
00:14:08 – 00:14:13
And I’m sure do you have a statistic, like a more recent recent statistic as far as how common this is overall?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:15 – 00:14:35
Oh, that’s that’s the most recent one. So that’s some research that came out of Europe, I think, combined with England because they do earmark these cases. They do have, like, specific categories. So they’re they are able to see, okay, this termination is a early induction. This termination is a pregnancy loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:14:37 – 00:15:00
And that research, yeah, came out of Europe a a few years ago. And they found that with the numbers that they have in Europe and England, these countries combined, the number of stillbirths are so many, and then the number of TFMR pregnancy loss, are 3 times as many as that number.
Victoria Volk
00:15:01 – 00:15:12
Do you know of any places in the United States that are implementing some sort of like what you just described for women going through this?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:13 – 00:15:40
Yes. Some of the better stories that I hear are coming out of some places in the US. I’ve heard some really good stories out of Washington DC and then other big hospitals across the nation. But they’re the bigger the bigger hospitals maybe who see more of these cases, and I think it’s really prior patients like me
Victoria Volk
00:15:41 – 00:15:41
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:41 – 00:15:46
Writing in or calling in or speaking up after and saying, why didn’t this happen?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:15:46 – 00:15:55
Or I read this story, and they got this kind of care. And why didn’t we have that? And I really believe that that’s why they get better care now.
Victoria Volk
00:15:56 – 00:16:20
There’s an organization called death with dignity, dying with dignity, 1 or the other. And, but their whole goal is to push legislation across the country in the United States for basically to die with for people to have the ability to die with dignity. And there’s a whole lot of things that go into that. But, I can see something like that being applied in this manner
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:20 – 00:16:20
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:21 – 00:16:40
for the situation, like for legislation to be put into place that requires hospitals and medical care staff and maybe even perhaps, you know, and I think it’s almost gonna take 1 like, lone ranger to blaze the trail and create some sort of independent facility. And then you know how it can kind of snowball from there
Sabrina Fletcher
00:16:41 – 00:16:41
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:16:42 – 00:16:59
where women feel, more supported in that decision with all the things that you said that you wish would have been there for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:00 – 00:17:00
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:17:00 – 00:17:20
And on that note, I mean, grief is the loss of hopes, dreams, and expectations, and anything that we wish would have been different, better, or more. And so how did you and your husband together and independently kind of work through that loss? And your daughter. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:21 – 00:17:22
Mmm. My daughter.
Victoria Volk
00:17:22 – 00:17:24
Or she had an awareness of you know, by the age of 3, we’ve already learned how to respond to most of life
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:25 – 00:17:25
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:17:25 – 00:17:26
already by 3.
Victoria Volk
00:17:26 – 00:17:28
So can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:17:29 – 00:18:08
So as a family and her my husband, and myself, we all went on our unique grief journeys. Some of it was together. We had a memorial service for her, and my daughter was there. I wanted her to take part. I wanted there to be, you know, some sort of symbolic recognition that, yes, a family member died in our family and, you know, this was your sibling and it’s okay to talk about it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:08 – 00:18:19
It’s okay to bring it up. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay to make art about it. It’s okay to you know, like, she would draw. I don’t even know where this came from.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:19 – 00:18:39
Like, instinctively, she made these, like, stone funeral Karnes. I think that’s how you say it, where they, like, make these stone mounds, but they’re and her so my husband’s father died 2 weeks before our baby did
Victoria Volk
00:18:39 – 00:18:40
Oh, wow.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:18:40 – 00:19:01
As well. So there was there was a lot of grief and death awareness happening for her that month and in the months to follow. So I remember she said, this is for a. This is for grandfather. And she had made this stone, corn.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:01 – 00:19:25
And then she said, and this is for my sister. This is for Clara. And she had made kind of a smaller stone and brick structure. And she had placed them like right in front of both sides of our front door.
Victoria Volk
00:19:25 – 00:19:25
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:26 – 00:19:28
My husband, I saw him really throw himself into work, so he chose the, like stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:28 – 00:19:53
And, also, life is really short, so I really wanna provide for my family. I really want us to be okay. I see my wife really sub me, you know, really suffering physically and going through all this. So he would work late hours. He would he would listen to me when I wanted to talk about it, but not as much talking maybe more of just needing to stay busy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:19:54 – 00:20:27
And for me, I think I did pretty much anything I could get my hands on. So I remember looking for a postpartum doula, looking for a grief or some sort of pregnancy loss practitioner to help me through. I did some emails with one of them. I did hire a postpartum doula. They urged me to do all of my creative things or new creative things, so drawing, painting.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:20:27 – 00:21:14
Well, some of those came later, maybe like a year or 2 later. But I did do some photography or even just like, mindless distracting things, like puzzles or little phone games and watching lighthearted TV to help with you know, those moments where it’s just like, oh, I’ve been thinking about this all day and just going over and over and over and over in my head about it. And no thoughts are going to fix these emotions. No thoughts are going to bring her back or help us go back in time and make sure that the egg and the sperm were the perfect quality, and then she wasn’t sick for whatever reason. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:14 – 00:21:38
I couldn’t go back in time to fix those things. I had to feel just a little bit more okay in that moment. I did a lot of sitting in the grass with my shoes off, my feet in the grass. So grounding just and I would just sit there. And then sometimes I would I would do, like, meditative walking, but I was so angry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:21:38 – 00:22:04
You know, I remember walking around my garden, and I live in Mexico, and the flowers bloom all year around here. And there was this amazing, like, huge red like, bigger than my head, red flower. And I would walk by it, and I would just get so angry. Like, why are you blooming and my baby isn’t here? Like, I’m walking by this beautiful flower, and it’s just in my face, and yet I knew, well, I just need to walk.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:04 – 00:22:13
I need to walk by it. I need to feel this anger. I need to sit with it. But then it would be like, okay. Time to go pick up my daughter.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:14 – 00:22:23
So it was hard to manage, you know, all the time and space that grief asks along with daily tasks.
Victoria Volk
00:22:24 – 00:22:28
Yeah. It’s like the stoneward spiral thought wheel was like you know,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:29 – 00:22:29
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:22:29 – 00:22:58
It’s like a tornado of thoughts, and I can just I was imagining it as you were walking around this flower and just I can feel from you. It’s just so important for people to hear that in those moments like you were you how you were able to just allow yourself to feel the anger. And I think so many people just don’t allow themselves to feel the anger because growing up, you’re taught that anger is wrong. It’s bad.
Victoria Volk
00:22:58 – 00:22:58
And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:22:58 – 00:23:02
Yeah. Even grief too. Like, push it down. Go to work.
Victoria Volk
00:23:02 – 00:23:06
But it is an element of grief. Anger is grief. Really.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:06 – 00:23:06
It is.
Victoria Volk
00:23:07 – 00:23:12
Did you like for your husband, you know, I meant not talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:23:12 – 00:23:26
And you said he kept himself very busy. Did he, did you see him? Did you view it as a stuffing down or did he find, did he eventually, did he start talking about it more or how did that change for him over time?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:28 – 00:23:48
Mmmm. He would have to come on and share his whole story because it’s pretty intense the way things ended up showing up for him quite later. But I guess I could say, eventually, he had some therapy, and I think that helped. So he was able to talk.
Victoria Volk
00:23:48 – 00:23:48
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:49- 00:23:54
And he’s also, a sweat lodge.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:55 – 00:23:58
He runs a sweat lodge,
Victoria Volk
00:23:58 – 00:23:58
Oh
Sabrina Fletcher
00:23:59 – 00:24:09
He runs a sweat lodge,
and he has a spa. And so he works with crystals and massage. And so he so his work, I think even going to work and helping others
Victoria Volk
00:24:09 – 00:24:09
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:10 – 00:24:14
Or sometimes they’ll, like, trade massage. So he was also working through things at work.
Victoria Volk
00:24:14 – 00:24:15
Yeah. I can see that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:15 – 00:24:23
And he would go and he would go in the sweat lodge. He also sings. So he has his outlets. They’re just different than mine. Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:24 – 00:24:28
Mhmm. And honoring that for each other. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:24:28 – 00:24:28
But like you said, he was able to he would listen to you and that’s sometimes all you need really is someone to just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:30 – 00:24:30
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:31 – 00:24:43
try and fix, just listen. And so I’m glad he was in that line of work because that probably actually is what helped him find his way eventually to therapy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:24:43 – 00:24:45
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:24:45 – 00:25:27
I was gonna ask too the question I had thought of earlier and then forgot. So growing up, what was, what were the messages? Because I how you articulated when your daughter was going through this, when you lost your baby, and then you’re talking about how it was important for you, for her, that she recognized grief and you had a lot of grief going on at the time, but how to allow her to channel it and honor her feelings and things like that. So what were what was your experience with grief growing up in the beliefs that you had about loss and like because in, you know, especially in my area, like German
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:28 – 00:25:30
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:25:30 – 00:25:34
Like or talk about our grief and what happens in the house?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:34 – 00:25:47
Yeah, stiff upper lip and all that and like, You know, pick yourself up by the bootstraps and carry on. No. That’s definitely my lineage as well.
Victoria Volk
00:25:48 – 00:25:48
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:25:50 – 00:26:31
And I understand more now about what I experienced with grief than when it was actually going on. There really weren’t any close deaths until my grandmother died when I was yeah, I was already in my twenties. But she had a brother who died in World War 2. And, I mean, that would have been so many years ago, but my mother told me that on certain days you know, I don’t know what days. Now I imagine, oh, it was probably his birthday.
Victoria Volk
00:25:26 – 00:26:31
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:31 – 00:26:52
Or it could have been some milestone that her children were reaching and her brother wasn’t there to see it. Maybe it was even her own birthday. You know, the passing of time is really hard, especially since he would have died so young, like a very young man. And then here she was, like, living a full long life, and he’s not there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:26:52 – 00:27:22
Well, my mom would say you know, she would go in her room and cry. So in a way, you know, behind closed doors That’s my grief legacy. So why I decided to be so open and why I felt like it was so important? I don’t know. Maybe it’s a reaction to that like, seeing how it was so closed and not really talked about and like, get on with your life and just move along.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:23 – 00:27:30
I felt like it was important to talk about it and be open about it. And I saw my daughter hurting. I didn’t I didn’t want to just say, oh, just go to school. That didn’t feel right to me.
Victoria Volk
00:27:30 – 00:27:30
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:31 – 00:27:37
You know, just get back to school.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:37 – 00:27:48
Just throw yourself into your schoolwork. I never said anything like that to her. So maybe it’s a reaction to what I grew up with and felt like it wasn’t enough.
Victoria Volk
00:27:49 – 00:27:57
After all the people I’ve talked to, the 4 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I am like almost 190 episodes. Not all.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:27:57 – 00:27:57
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:27:58 – 00:28:18
So not all not all interviews, but I think there’s 2 camps of people. And like you just said, I think there’s people that grow up and learn these things about grief that are unhelpful and hurtful and self-sabotaging. And they see that contrast when they’re met with something in their lives.
Victoria Volk
00:28:18 – 00:28:29
And they remember that contrast of that experience. Like, we didn’t talk about it. And I felt shamed for or you know, if you have feel shame for bringing up the person’s name
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:29 – 00:28:29
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:28:30 – 00:28:40
because, you know, it makes other people uncomfortable or angry or sad or whatever it is. So there’s no room for your feelings. You know, you can grow up that way with no, there’s no room.
Victoria Volk
00:28:40 – 00:28:54
So then you step down and you don’t talk about it. Right? And then that continues through generations. And that’s what happens. But sometimes there’s camps of people, though, the other camp that sees that contrast and breaks that cycle.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:28:55 – 00:28:55
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:28:56 – 00:29:17
So congratulations on doing that because you teach your daughter how to respond to grief by how you respond to grief. And I think that’s the message that I want to get across and why I started this podcast is because I’m a child griever.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:17 – 00:29:17
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:18 – 00:29:21
My dad died when I was young, and there was like,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:23 – 00:29:27
yeah, it’s like resources. No talking about it.
Victoria Volk
00:29:27 – 00:29:30
Yep. Or well, in my case,
Victoria Volk
00:29:30 – 00:29:35
it was there was a lot of talking about it from my mother. Of course, she lost her husband, but just no room for me.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:35 – 00:29:35
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:29:36 – 00:29:48
That’s what I was getting at is that even though it is talked about yet, it’s not where you feel you can share. Like, you can’t share.
Victoria Volk
00:29:49 – 00:29:57
There’s no open sharing. And that’s there’s all kinds of family dynamics and how that plays out and different scenarios and circumstances. And we could sit here all day long about all of those. But
Sabrina Fletcher
00:29:57 – 00:30:02
Oh, yeah. I’ve been the stories about that too. Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:03 – 00:30:16
Condenses down to either you learn these things and you continue that pattern onto your kids or you break that cycle because you see the importance of what you would have wanted for yourself and then create that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:16 – 00:30:17
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:17
for your children
Victoria Volk
00:30:17 – 00:30:32
for the legacy that follows behind. So that’s I think that’s a very important takeaway for people listening to this, who have children who are going through grieving experiences too, because like you said, it’s she lost her sister too, even though she was 4
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:32 – 00:30:32
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:30:32 – 00:30:43
years old. And it’s very easy for parents to assume that, oh, they’re so little. They don’t understand. Anyway, I was 8 and people were saying that I see 8 year olds now. And I’m like, wow.
Victoria Volk
00:30:43 – 00:30:52
Like, I don’t know if I was that articulate or that I was that smart, but I would hope I was., Like, 8 year olds understand. Come on. Like, really?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:52 – 00:30:53
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:53 – 00:31:54
And so do 4 year olds. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:30:55 – 00:30:55
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:30:55 – 00:31:02
Thank you for sharing in that as much as you did because I think it’s important for people to hear. No matter the loss.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:03 – 00:31:30
Thank you. Thank you, Victoria. Yeah. I even said to my daughter a couple days ago, I just said, I really appreciate how you opened up to me and what you shared about, you know, your sadness. And, you know, when Clara we named her Clara when Clara died and how we went through that together.
Victoria Volk
00:31:31 – 00:31:35
And in the work that you’re doing today, you can share that experience with people too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:35 – 00:31:35
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:31:35 – 00:31:54
If they have other children that are experiencing that loss as the fam, you know, with along with the family unit. And so, or when did you start doing the work that you’re doing? Because the loss happened in 2018, but when did you finally feel ready to, support others?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:31:56 – 00:31:59
Mmm. So, symbolically, I feel like I started while I was in the recovery chair.
Victoria Volk
00:31:59 – 00:32:01
Mmm. Like many people do.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:01 – 00:32:19
You know, after I had had my I guess we could call it a d and c, And I was like, where’s my doula? Like, there’s no one here saying, how are you feeling? Or I’m sitting here beside you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:19 – 00:32:32
Can I hold your hand? Would you like water? Something like that. You know, just those simple, caring things that we need, especially in very early grief. And with pregnancy loss, it’s a grief through your body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:32:32 – 00:33:00
So there’s, like, the physical recovery that needs to happen. So I was thinking, where is she? And then I realized I’m going to be her. That’s what I wanna do. And then I also realized, and I need to go through my own healing process first so that I can fully show up for other people from a healed place.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:02 – 00:33:40
So it was mid 2020, the fall of 2020. By the time I created an Instagram account, the TFMR doula, and just started bringing people together. And we would, you know, talk in stories or in the comments and making connections with other pregnancy loss spaces. And then I created a Facebook group for us to go a little bit deeper and have more conversations in a place where no one else is coming in and being like, well, I wouldn’t have made that choice. It’s like, thank you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:40 – 00:33:41
That’s unhelpful.
Victoria Volk
00:33:41 – 00:33:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:33:42 – 00:34:18
You know, just like people who their loved one has died by suicide, you know, they deserve to have a special space there because there’s certain layers that only they will be going through. Or if they’ve been a long-term caregiver for Alzheimer’s or cancer or something, and then their loved loved one dies. You know? They have all that anticipatory grief years to to talk about and being in groups where where people just understand, you know, the hardships and the things that other people say to you when you’re going through all of this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:18 – 00:34:34
It’s good to have those specific places for people who have been through it with other people who have been through. I mean, I can’t say exactly. All of our cases are unique, but, yeah, exactly that type of loss.
Victoria Volk
00:34:34 – 00:34:34
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:35 – 00:34:37
And that was, like, during COVID started
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:37 – 00:34:39
It was.
Victoria Volk
00:34:39 – 00:34:40
So how did that, like I mean, there’s grief in that too. Like, you just
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:40 – 00:34:40
Oh,
Victoria Volk
00:34:41 – 00:34:7
so much. Thing. I know. I started my business doing grief work and stuff 2019,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:34:47 – 00:34:47
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:34:48 – 00:34:49
early 2019.
Victoria Volk
00:34:49 – 00:35:14
And I gained so much momentum. And I was doing in person talks and things like that and doing in person groups. And then COVID hit, and it’s like but that’s when I took, you know, the opportunity to just get a lot more training and certifications online and just build my toolbox. And so that’s what I did during that time. But what it how did you kind of deal with that?
Victoria Volk
00:35:14 – 00:35:24
Because there’s this thing here. You just birthed out, and then it’s like, oh, I mean, no pun intended. That was a terrible pun. Like, that I’m sorry.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:25 – 00:35:25
Oh, gosh.
Victoria Volk
00:35:25 – 00:35:26
I just thought that
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:26 – 00:35:28
But yeah. No. But it’s a birth. Right? It is.
Speaker 2
00:35:28 – 00:35:31
It’s a Mother. Yeah. It’s birth from love. Right? Because you you birthed
Victoria Volk
00:35:31 – 00:35:33
it out of your experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:33 – 00:35:35
So It is. It is.
Victoria Volk
00:35:36 – 00:35:36
Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:36 – 00:35:45
It is. And so I was unable to do the in person pregnancy loss doula work that I wanted to.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:35:45 – 00:36:19
You know, I really wanted to be the sit by your side in that recovery chair and hold your hand and say, yeah. It’s okay to cry because you’re a bereaved mother and all the things that I needed to hear. And I also knew that I wanted to do the bulk of my support services online, So I already knew that I wanted most of it to be virtual. Like, the big community aspect of it, I always had in mind that it was going to be virtual. So whenever when everything went virtual, it helped in a way because then other people were open to receiving support in virtual ways.
Victoria Volk
00:36:21 – 00:36:24
That’s true. Yeah. That’s a good point.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:25 – 00:36:35
But that was that was my specific situation where I always knew I wanted, you know, most of it to be virtual so that we can meet internationally. Right.
Victoria Volk
00:36:35 – 00:36:39
It’s more accessible. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:39 – 00:36:39
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:40 – 00:37:01
And that’s the thing I think that came out of COVID is that so many of these resources that exist today are because the virtual and people are more open to that because that is the way of the world now.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:36:58 – 00:36:58
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:36:58 – 00:37:01
So there’s more availability, but there’s also, like you said, more buy in where people are more apt to give it a chance and see if it’ll work for them.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:01 – 00:37:12
Yeah. So when I started doing live workshops or like little support groups and it was on Zoom, I knew that people already had that program at least.
Victoria Volk
00:37:12 – 00:37:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:13 – 00:37:16
They were familiar with it, so I could just say Zoom. I didn’t need to explain what it was.
Victoria Volk
00:37:16 – 00:37:16
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:16 – 00:37:53
Because before 2020, anything that was online, if you weren’t already like an online entrepreneur or something, you didn’t know all of these programs and the terms and the things. But now, we’ve all been educated on doing it all online, which it can get exhausting too in some sense. And now that, you know, COVID is not at its height, we do wanna do in-person annual retreats as well because it is important to meet. It is important to get those hugs.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:37:53 – 00:38:18
It is important to, you know, see people face to face. And I wanna have those experiences too, where we can really see I’m really not alone in this. Here’s another flesh and blood person who has made this choice, who loves their baby deeply, who is grieving just as deeply as I am. And here we are sitting together.
Victoria Volk
00:38:19 – 00:38:20
And in Mexico. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:20 – 00:38:28
Yes. I mean, great. So come and come and get some sun. Come and spray. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:28 – 00:38:34
We we may end up doing the next one in in the US, though, because a lot of my community members are in the US.
Victoria Volk
00:38:36 – 00:38:53
So what were some of the ways I mean, I know that there was a lot that wasn’t there for you, but what were some of the ways that other people supported you that you found helpful, most helpful during that time and either for your daughter or for your husband or for yourself or as a family? Like, what would you share with people?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:38:54 – 00:39:13
For myself, the biggest resource, the most helpful resource was a another Facebook group. And they were the inspiration for me creating my own as well. And they and they’re still functioning. They’re a great community. They’re called ending a wanted pregnancy.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:14 – 00:39:41
I think it’s just ending a wanted pregnancy dot com. And you go through this application process, and then you’re in the Facebook group with only other people who have been through it or their immediate partners. You know, there are no health professionals who just wanna know how to help other people. There are no grandparents or siblings who you know, wanna like, look in.
Victoria Volk
00:39:42 – 00:39:42
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:42 – 00:39:44
It’s completely closed.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:39:44 – 00:40:08
And so because I knew that that community was so highly screened and closed and I think even secret. So at that time, Facebook had secret groups. They’ve changed their settings. It’s something else. I mean, it still kind of exists in that way where no one else on your friend on your friend list can see that you’re in this group.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:08 – 00:40:23
No one else can even, like, search for it and see, like, who the members are. It’s unsearchable. It’s secret. So I knew this was a safe place. I was able to bring all of these emotions and feelings that I couldn’t talk to anybody else.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:23 – 00:40:59
I had a place to bring it to, and I could read what other people were feeling and thinking and going through and struggling with and ways that they were honoring their babies and you know, how they were taking part in broad pregnancy loss spaces as well. And I remember thinking, oh, I can do that. Oh, I can help myself in that way too. Oh, I can honor my baby in that way. So that was a really beautiful experience finding that group and taking part.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:40:59 – 00:41:15
You know, I’ve made amazing friendships through people in that group. And like I said, they inspired me to open another Facebook group. And since then, we have more. There are more. I mean, not that many, maybe like a dozen.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:15 – 00:41:34
But more than at the time when I went through it, it was basically just that group and maybe some anonymous forum that was visible to the public on baby center at that time. Now people tend to go to Reddit for that sort of anonymous experience, which has its place too.
Victoria Volk
00:41:36 – 00:41:42
Would you mind sharing your Facebook page, what it’s called? Can is it searchable, or is yours also private and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:41:42 – 00:41:59
Well, it my mine is searchable, but it’s closed. No one can see that you’re in it. But I do also do a application process. So it’s on my website, thetfmrdoula.com/facebookgroup. All one word.
Victoria Volk
00:42:01 – 00:42:04
And I will put the link to that in the show notes as well.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:04 – 00:42:13
Thank you. Yeah. It’s it’s a a wonderful space. And it’s a community space. You know, I started it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:13 – 00:42:34
I run it. I facilitate. I facilitate the space for people to come and share their stories and give and get support and ask the questions that they can’t ask anywhere else because other people just say, oh, well, just be grateful that you have 2 other living kids
Victoria Volk
00:42:35 – 00:42:35
Mmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:35 – 00:42:39
Or like, you’ll get pregnant again. It’s like, what? Like, can you imagine?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:39 – 00:42:47
Well, you’ll get married again. Or, like, you still have your mom. You don’t need your dad. Like, okay. The things that people say.
Victoria Volk
00:42:49 – 00:43:55
Without thinking. Really. I mean, like, if you say it back to them like, did you I mean, just let me say that back to you out loud so you can hear it.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:56 – 00:42:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:42:56 – 00:43:00
Does that sound okay?
Victoria Volk
00:43:01 – 00:43:09
I mean, what’s what about that sounds okay? It’s almost like, you know, I’m I, I just developed a pet loss program.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:42:10 – 00:42:10
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:10 – 00:43:17
And, it’s not launched yet, but it’s it’s like people so commonly especially with pets, like, you can just get another pet. And it’s like, okay. So
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:17 – 00:43:20
Well, yeah, you can, and it’s not that pet that you
Victoria Volk
00:43:21 – 00:43:25
Right. It’s like people don’t say that too, like, when your grand when your mom dies.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:25 – 00:43:25
Right.
Victoria Volk
00:43:26 – 00:43:28
Well, you can just get a mom. Just get another mom. I mean
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:28 – 00:43:31
Just get another one.
Victoria Volk
00:43:31 – 00:43:32
It’s, yeah, it’s one of the myths
Victoria Volk
00:43:32 – 00:43:33
of grief is replace the loss and,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:34 – 00:43:34
Mmm
Victoria Volk
00:43:34 – 00:43:42
You know, it’s one of those things we all learn to do. Right? We learn how to acquire things and people, not what to do when we lose them. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:42 – 00:43:45
Oh, that’s a really good quote, Victoria.
Victoria Volk
00:43:45 – 00:43:50
It is. It is. There was something on you I was gonna ask you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:43:50 – 00:43:51
Sure.
Victoria Volk
00:43:51 – 00:43:56
What advice to other grievers desiring to create meaning from their grief?
Victoria Volk
00:43:56 – 00:44:12
And, you know, when I say create meaning that can that kind of rubs some people the wrong way. Like you have to create meaning, you have to do something big, but you don’t. It it’s I think it, I think a part of creating meaning or finding meaning, not that everything happens for a reason. Like, sometimes
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:12 – 00:44:12
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:44:13 – 00:44:17
that can ruffle people’s feathers too. Rightfully so.
Victoria Volk
00:44:17 – 00:44:42
Acceptance is a huge part of creating meaning. Personally, I think that you know, once you get to that place of acceptance of like, you can’t change the past, right? You can’t, but you can, you have a choice in how you transmute the emotions and the feelings that you experienced and move forward. And you’ve done that in a very beautiful way and enough service to others. And not everybody has to, you know, take on something like that.
Victoria Volk
00:44:42 – 00:44:42
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:42 – 00:44:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:43 – 00:44:45
And not everybody is capable of that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:44:45 – 00:44:45
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:44:46 – 00:44:59
Like, you know, it’s a it’s not a burden. And that’s the thing I think where people shy away from seeking help to is they don’t want to be a burden to other people. And that’s a lot of what keeps people isolated in their grief.
Victoria Volk
00:44:59 – 00:45:13
But I’ll get to the question here. But what advice would you give to others who desire to do something like you have done? And maybe a different way, but just do something with their grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:14 – 00:45:32
Mmm. Yeah. I like to talk about not thinking of it as, like, look for the what do we call it in the cloud? The silver lining. You know, we’re not looking for you know, there’s no silver lining in my baby dying in such a horrendous taboo way. There’s no silver lining there.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:45:33 – 00:46:21
There just isn’t. And I like to think of well, I have this little mini framework that I share with my clients and that I need to share with my community on a whole. It’s like this cycle of holding and honoring our emotions. And I think this can help people get to this place where they’re even doing tiny things that can help. And it may help them, you know, create meaning, find meaning, or it may help them, you know, just that day feel a little bit closer or feel more connected to their baby or even feel more connected to themselves or feel just a little bit more calm in the storm of grief.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:22 – 00:46:28
There are 3 steps, but they go around and around. You know? Just like grief is a cycle. Right?
Victoria Volk
00:46:28 – 00:46:30
Just like you did a lot of meditation around the flower. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:30 – 00:46:42
Yeah. Yeah. We just go around. We go around, and then we come back to the same place, but we have a little bit more knowledge this time, and we’re gonna go a little bit deeper. It might be even more like a spiral too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:42 – 00:46:46
Although, you know, I don’t want you to spiral out. Not that sort of spiral.
Victoria Volk
00:46:46 – 00:46:47
In a good way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:46:48 – 00:47:19
Yeah. Spiraling deeper into the meaning or the love or the connection. So I start with acknowledge, just acknowledging that you’re having this body sensation instead of pushing it away. And also being very very gentle with this stage because I would say, with early grief, it’s very intense. And early grief can be a year, 2 years for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:20 – 00:47:35
So we just take, you know, like, one little sensation like my heart. You know? It’s tight. Just noticing that sensation. And even trying to notice without putting any labels on it yet.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:36 – 00:47:55
Even without saying it’s my heart or it’s this sensation or it’s this name of the thing. We don’t even have to put a label on it. So just acknowledging that it’s there. And I stayed in this place for a really long time. All of those things that I was talking about, like, with my with my feet in the grass, it would just be like, I’m just feeling.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:47:56 – 00:48:26
I’m just feeling, and I’m just you know, it’s just like flowing down into the earth, or I’m I’m walking, and I’m just feeling all of these sensations. And, like, my brain can’t even put a label on it yet, and that’s fine. It’s okay to stay in this acknowledging place for as long as you need to. And then if you feel ready, you can move to the part of the cycle that I like to think of, as a sign. So then you can begin to assign it an emotion name.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:48:26 – 00:49:02
So like I said, like anger, you know, is feeling so angry at the world and life and you know, even mother nature for screwing up my, you know, somewhere in the genetics or the creation or the, you know, the way that she was forming or maybe, you know, there’s something wrong with my own uterus or whatever. I was just so angry at all of those things and just, like, feeling the anger. And it and it’s okay to label it, like anger. You know? I’m feeling the anger.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:02 – 00:49:22
I’m actually feeling this emotion. And then and then if that feels okay, if you’d like to move to the next part of the cycle, I think of this part as a, oh, so we went or assign. Now we’re at align. And you can align in different ways. This is gonna be unique.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:49:22 – 00:50:01
This is gonna be your own self-care that works for you, whatever you need in that moment or maybe the first tiny step for something bigger that you want to do. You know, a lot of people do advocacy in TFMR. Like, they want to write a letter to their representative and tell their story and say, you know, the laws really hurt me and my family and my baby in this way, and this is what I went through. So maybe when you get to a line, maybe it’s like, okay. I’m gonna take out a piece of paper, or I’m gonna open a blank document on my computer and give it a name, letter to my representative.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:02 – 00:50:31
That could be your align. So it’s doing something for the sensations and the emotions that you’re having, and then we’re gonna transform, transmute. I like to think of transmutation and transformation more than finding meaning because we’re taking these sensations and emotions, and then you can do something with them. Emotion, e motion, it’s movement. It’s it wants to move.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:50:31 – 00:51:03
It wants to move through you. It wants to move through and even out of you. But we were never taught how. I, at least, I was never taught how. I had to, you know, figure it out on my own through doing it and through, you know, being in a relationship with my husband and like, seeing my own daughter’s grief and then being in these grief communities and being in these TFMR communities and talking to other pregnancy loss parents and seeing the ways that they were aligning.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:03 – 00:51:22
You know? Sometimes I would only see that part of their cycle because that can’t be outward. It can’t be inward. So maybe I was seeing how they were, aligning in a way in their life. And then once we align a little bit, then maybe new sensations come about in the body.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:23 – 00:51:44
And so that’s why it’s a cycle. So then you can begin to acknowledge those sensations or those feelings as well. And you can go through the cycle as, you know, we’ll go through it an infinite amount of times in our lifetime if we’re lucky, if we get the time, if we get the chance to do it.
Victoria Volk
00:51:44 – 00:51:57
And the key thing you said there is connecting with ourselves and our emotions are in our body, because it is what you went through and what other women go through in this experience is very much a body experience.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:51:58 – 00:51:59
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:04
So it’s connecting back to the body to heal the body from within out.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:04 – 00:52:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:51:59 – 00:52:28
I’m curious if because the work your husband does, if you utilize some of those things and have considered or maybe you’ve already done this where you’ve had brought in women who have experienced this into his place of where he works and to experience these tools that he has to help women connect with themselves in that way.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:28 – 00:52:31
Oh, it’s definitely going to be a part of the live retreats.
Victoria Volk
00:52:31 – 00:52:32
That’s for sure.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:32 – 00:52:41
For sure. For sure. And I’ve been thinking about well, since I set everything up virtually, I just continue to do everything virtually.
Victoria Volk
00:52:41 – 00:52:41
Right.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:52:41 – 00:53:19
I don’t have a local group yet, but, there is a midwife in town who would like me to run a group and I would definitely invite them, you know, after, you know, 6 weeks or after a few months of coming to these circles. Maybe we’ll do, you know, a quarterly sweat lodge experience. And my husband actually gets a lot of people who come to him, maybe not right after a loss, but in that time, you’ll understand the time period. About 3 or 4 months out or, like, a year out.
Victoria Volk
00:53:19 – 00:53:19
Mhmm. Yeah.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:20 – 00:53:39
With a big loss or life transitions, and then they go and they want to really mark that transition with a ritual, which is something that the sweat lodge can help you do or take partaking in a sweat.
Victoria Volk
00:53:41 – 00:53:51
Very cool. I think you’ve got a lot of amazing things brewing and I’m excited to see what, what comes of it for you.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:52 – 00:53:52
Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:53:52- 00:53:55
I am curious. Did you have any more children?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:55 – 00:53:55
Yes.
Victoria Volk
00:53:55- 00:53:56
Okay.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:53:56 – 00:54:23
I was able to get pregnant again after my loss. And I would say that pregnancy is really was the second hardest thing that I’ve done in my life after you know, going through the termination, after going through losing my baby.
Victoria Volk
00:54:23 – 00:54:36
That’s why I asked because, it’s like when people wanna replace a dog. Right? It’s like, how do you know you’re ready? And people often just don’t even think about that. They just replace the dog and you’re not replacing the loss by having another child. That’s not what I’m saying. Although people can have that perception.
Victoria Volk
00:54:36 – 00:54:42
Right? Like, you wanna feel better, so you just you can just have another child. Right?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:42 – 00:54:45
That’s what people say. Yeah. The people say that.
Victoria Volk
00:54:45 – 00:54:46
People say that. You can have more kids.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:47 – 00:54:48
Not everyone can.
Victoria Volk
00:54:49 – 00:54:50
Right? Exactly.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:50 – 00:54:52
Exactly. And then
Victoria Volk
00:54:52 – 00:54:55
so the when they say that, they’re making the assumption that, yes, you can too.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:56 – 00:54:56
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:56 – 00:54:57
Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:54:59 – 00:54:59
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:54:59 – 00:55:02
Like, howdid you know? Like or how did you come to that? And
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:02 – 00:55:27
Well, I think of my the loss of my baby as the primary loss, the primary death.
Victoria Volk
00:55:12 – 00:55:12
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:13 – 00:55:27
There are also other things that were lost. So I lost this vision of having 2 children in my family. I lost this, you know, the hopes and desires to have my oldest daughter not be a only child.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:28 – 00:55:55
I wanted to have, you know, more than one kid. I wanted to have 2 or 3. I guess I do have 3 now in a way. But 2 living and then the one that died. And I knew that it was going to be hard, and the desire to have another child was stronger than the fear.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:55:56 – 00:56:27
That was when I knew that I was ready to really go back into battle. Most people who go through a termination for medical reasons do develop, like, full-blown PTSD. You know, it’s like going to war. And so if you think of it like we’re warriors who have been to this battle or war and lost. Now we’re being asked to go right back to the same battlefield.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:29 – 00:56:55
You know, it’s the same sensations. Maybe you pull out the same, you know, pregnancy pants. Maybe it’s even, like, the same season. Some people, you know, just the dates, like, all line-up and they’re going to their 12-week scan on March 12th again the next year. So they’re very crazy feelings that you that you go through.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:56:56 – 00:57:14
Because you’re going through it again. And then the anger too, you feel very I remember being very angry throughout the 1st trimester and thinking, you know, I feel so tired. I feel like crap. You know, I feel like I’m gonna throw up all the time. I already went through this.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:15 – 00:57:53
You know? Why do I have to go through this again? And of course, I was so thrilled to be pregnant again and to hopefully, you know, have a baby, have a have another sibling and to hopefully have those experiences that I was dreaming of you know, to have 2 kids or more than 2 kids and to have, like, a bigger family. I mean, it’s not a big family to have 2 kids, but, bigger than 1, bigger than just parenting 1. And I mean, I had EMDR therapist.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:57:53 – 00:58:23
I had my acupuncturist. I had different doctors. I had the high-risk doctor that I was going to. I had the same doula that I my postpartum doula then became my doula through that pregnancy. In the pregnancy loss spaces, I found, like, specific monthly threads or places where people were talking about being pregnant again after loss or even more specifically being pregnant again after TFMR.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:25 – 00:58:43
I had a really good friend who we would check-in every day. We were like, I don’t know. Our dates, like, lined up we were already in contact, and then we were both trying to conceive, and then we, like both got pregnant probably on, like, the same day. And so, you know, it’s like, here we are in week 1. Now we’re in week 2.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:58:43 – 00:58:59
We checked in every single day with each other, and it would just be in the morning, I’d be like, oh my gosh. I’m so scared. And I would open, you know, my Messenger app or whatever, and there’s her message saying the same thing. So I didn’t feel so alone.
Victoria Volk
00:58:59 – 00:58:59
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:01 – 00:59:03
That was how I got through that pregnancy.
Victoria Volk
00:59:04 – 00:59:06
With a lot of support, it sounds like.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:06 – 00:59:15
A lot. I needed a lot of support. I needed all of it, and I really pulled on all of it. And it was really hard on my husband too. You know?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:15 – 00:59:19
We were scared every single day that we would lose her too.
Victoria Volk
00:59:20 – 00:59:21
And what’s her name?
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:21 – 00:59:23
Her name is Aya.
Victoria Volk
00:59:23 – 00:59:25
Oh, that’s beautiful.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:25 – 00:59:27
Thank you.
Victoria Volk
00:59:27 – 00:59:37
It’s like the, what you said, it’s holding on to the both and
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:32 – 00:59:32
Uh-huh
Victoria Volk
00:59:32 – 00:59:37
it’s the feelings of fear and an excitement at the same time, enjoy,
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:37 – 00:59:37
right
Victoria Volk
00:59:37 – 00:59:42
It’s the both and like, it’s like holding the feelings and the reality at the same time.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:43 – 00:59:43
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
00:59:43 – 00:59:53
And that’s a tricky thing to do. And so I thank you for sharing that aspect of your story, because I think it’ll be helpful for people who are going through that.
Sabrina Fletcher
00:59:53 – 01:00:03
Yeah. And I have a monthly thread in my Facebook group too, and I started a monthly live Zoom for us as well.
Victoria Volk
01:00:03 – 01:00:05
Awesome.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:05 – 01:00:19
Mhmm. Because I remember how hard it was. I mean, she’s 4 now, and still even around, even around her birthday I start thinking about you know, everything that we went through just to get to that point.
Victoria Volk
01:00:20 – 01:00:34
On your form, there’s a question I ask. I don’t know if you remember what you answered, but I wanna share it if you don’t remember. But it’s what would you like to scream to the world in the past or recently in which people knew about your grief?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:35 – 01:00:40
Did I write TFMR is pregnancy loss?
Victoria Volk
01:00:38 – 01:00:38
Yes
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:38 – 01:00:40
TFMR is pregnancy yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:40 – 01:00:45
Yes. And then you added something else. You said treat me gently
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:45 – 01:00:47
I don’t read it. Can you read it?
Victoria Volk
01:00:47 – 01:00:50
Yeah. Treat me gently as you would any grieving parent.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:00:52 – 01:00:55
That’s it. That’s the one.
Victoria Volk
01:00:56 – 01:01:10
I thought that was beautiful. And so I think it’s a great place to tie this episode up with a bow for people.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:06 – 01:01:06
Mmm.
Victoria Volk
01:01:07 – 01:01:10
Grief is grief, no matter the circumstance. And we all agree that 100%. So treat each other gently.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:11 – 01:01:11
Wonderful.
Victoria Volk
01:01:11 – 01:01:16
Thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything else you would like to share though that you didn’t get to?
Sabrina Fletcher
01:01:18 – 01:02:09
I think I shared what was on my heart today. And maybe one more thing, just if you’re going through this or if you’ve been through this and you’re and you’re just finding the acronym and you’re just finding these places or you’re still looking for support around this type of pregnancy loss, just know that it is out there. And I know it’s really hard, like the onus is on the grieving person to go out and find support in a time where you’re just so exhausted. And it’s so worth it. It’s so worth it to keep searching until you find the space and the people who can really support you because it will make all of the difference in the world.
Victoria Volk
01:02:10 – 01:02:14
And if you’re a helper, sometimes helpers need help too.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:14 – 01:02:15
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:16 – 01:02:18
That’s what I’ve found even personally.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:19 – 01:02:27
Mmm. Oh, yeah. No. I have a lot of therapists, teachers, nurses in my community.
Victoria Volk
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Sabrina Fletcher
01:02:27 – 01:02:27
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
01:02:28 – 01:02:52
Well, thank you so much for all that you shared today. And, I look forward to sharing this episode and I will put all the links to what you shared in the show notes for people to quickly and easily find support if they’re needing it. And thank you for listening today. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Educational, Grieving Voices Guest, Life with Human Design, Parenting, Pespective |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Are you ready to embark on a journey that could transform your understanding of purpose, parenting, and personal healing?
This week on Grieving Voices, I welcomed Alexandra Cole, a former corporate consultant turned human design coach. After a decade in the Fortune 500 sector, Alexandra pivoted to guiding individuals and families in finding their purpose through human design—a system that combines astrology, I Ching, Kabbalah, and the chakras.
Born in London and raised in Amsterdam with an education from Princeton University, she now resides in Santa Barbara with her husband and young son. Her journey into motherhood inspired “Thriving by Design,” a toolkit designed for parents to understand their child’s unique traits.
Alexandra shares her personal story of loss—losing her mother at age ten—and how it shaped her emotional world. She explains how understanding one’s own human design can be instrumental during grief and aiding parents to align better with their children’s innate designs.
She discusses the five energy types within human design: Manifestors (initiators), Projectors (guides), Generators, & Manifesting Generators (consistent workers who need joy-based work). Each type has different ways of investing energy for fulfillment and purpose. The conversation also delves into parenting aligned with your child’s energy type—such important information and particularly helpful when parenting grieving children.
This insightful discussion highlights how embracing our inherent nature according to our human design can lead us toward more authentic and aligned lives.
If you’re curious about how your unique blueprint can shape your way forward—in joyous times or challenging ones—I encourage you to learn your human design and listen to this episode because sometimes the most authentic path is the one that is tailor-made just for us.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Unlocking the Power of Human Design in Grieving, Parenting, and Self-Discovery
In today’s fast-paced world, where change is constant and life often throws us curveballs, understanding ourselves and our loved ones can sometimes feel like deciphering an enigmatic puzzle. But what if there was a blueprint—a design—that could help us navigate these complexities with greater ease? Enter Human Design, a revolutionary system that combines ancient wisdom with modern science to offer profound insights into our personalities.
Recently on Grieving Voices, we had the pleasure of hosting Alexandra Cole—once a corporate consultant for Fortune 500 companies who has now found her calling as a human design coach. With her international background and diverse experiences shaping her approach to coaching, she shared how human design has become an invaluable tool for personal growth during grief, enhancing parenting techniques, and managing life’s myriad challenges.
The Transformation Journey: From Corporate Consulting to Human Design
Alexandra’s journey from advising corporations to coaching individuals speaks volumes about the transformative power of purpose. Her work through “Thriving by Design” demonstrates how aligning one’s career with their inner calling can lead not only to personal fulfillment but also make significant impacts on others’ lives.
Understanding Ourselves Through Grief
Grief is unique to every individual; it shapes itself around each person’s energy type. Alexandra emphasizes that knowing your human design can reveal personalized paths for healing when you’re navigating loss or adversity. For example:
– **Manifestors** may need solitude to initiate their own grieving process.
– **Projectors** might seek deep understanding before they can find closure.
– **Generators** require activities that reignite their spark amidst sorrow.
– **Manifesting Generators**, much like generators but with added complexity due to their multifaceted nature.
– Lastly,** Reflectors**, whose sensitivity means they deeply mirror those around them—and thus may absorb collective grief which needs careful navigation.
By recognizing these patterns within ourselves based on our energy types in times of mourning or crisis—we allow space for compassion towards self-healing journeys tailored just right for us.
Parental Guidance Enhanced by Human Design
Parenting is arguably one of life’s most challenging yet rewarding roles—and here too human design offers remarkable guidance. By acknowledging each child’s unique energy type (be it Manifestor or Reflector), parents are better equipped at fostering environments where children thrive authentically rather than conforming them into ill-fitting societal molds.
For instance:
– Encourage your child when you see them light up doing something they love—this physical response signals alignment with their true nature.
– Recognize that while Generators have abundant energy reserves—they must be wary not becoming ‘yes people’, overcommitting themselves away from joyous pursuits
– Understand Reflectors’ need for supportive surroundings given their heightened sensitivities reflecting back the health—or dis-ease—of communities around them
This knowledge doesn’t just cultivate healthier relationships between parent-child dynamics; it paves the way toward nurturing well-rounded individuals grounded in self-awareness from early stages onward.
Better Relationships Through Energetic Understanding
Human design isn’t limited solely to introspection—it extends outwardly enrichening relational dynamics too! Partnerships benefit immensely when both parties respect differing energetic requirements (imagine respecting your partner’s need for dynamic mornings versus quiet evenings). This framework fosters deeper empathy & effective communication leading towards harmonious co-existence amid diversity in temperaments & preferences alike!
Resources at Your Fingertips
Alexandra provides multiple avenues through which anyone interested can delve further into this transformative field:
1) Personal sessions via alexandracole.com
2) Wellness products including customized reports at thrivingbydesign.com
3) Her book “The Purpose Playbook”, guides readers towards living out authentic purposes
These resources serve as tools aiding one along paths whether seeking solace during grief-stricken times or simply aspiring towards more aligned living overall – all underscored by honoring inherent uniqueness above external expectations thrust upon us!
As we wrapped up our conversation filled with gratitude & enlightenment —it became clear why nurturing individuality holds paramount importance across facets ranging from parenting strategies down even unto embracing personal narratives woven uniquely within tapestries called ‘life’.
To live authentically—isn’t just sound advice—it’s foundational ethos empowering thriving existences no matter what storms come ashore!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk
00:00:00 – 00:00:27
Thank you so much for tuning in to grieving voices. I’m very excited to, bring a guest. We haven’t had a guest in a little while here on the podcast. And today, Alexandra Cole is joining me. She is a former corporate consultant turned human design coach after a decade of helping fortune 500 identify and articulate their why she pivoted to help individuals, families, and couples do the same.
Victoria Volk
00:00:27 – 00:01:18
She uses human design as a tool to help her clients pursue their purpose with more clarity and confidence. Alexander is passionate about translating insights from her clients, human design charts into actionable strategies for optimizing their relationships, well-being, careers, finances, and family life. She was born in London, raised in Amsterdam, educated at Princeton University, and now lives in Santa Barbara, California with her husband and 2 year old son. Becoming a mother inspired her to create thriving by design, a collection of tools, cheat sheets, and online courses designed to give parents insight into their child’s unique sensitivities, preferences, and gifts, as well as tactical tips for how to support them. Alexandra is happiest when moving her body, eating good food, exploring new places, and in deep conversation with new or old friends.
Victoria Volk
00:01:19 – 00:01:35
I love that. I love deep conversation too. And I love human design, and I honestly can’t even remember how I got into your sphere, but I did. And you share the same name as my middle Alexandra. I love the name.
Victoria Volk
00:01:35 – 00:01:53
Beautiful name. But there was something I found interesting when I was looking into, I don’t know, I opened an email, then you you know, you get down a rabbit hole. And then I found your wellness. The wellness design report or well by well by design report. And that’s how we kind of connected.
Victoria Volk
00:01:53 – 00:02:30
And I’m just thinking, like, gosh, this would be a really good topic for to bring on the podcast for people, especially particularly grievers who, you know, sometimes you just don’t know what you need. And this well by design report can be a good place to start. Like, if I just wanna feel better, how can I feel better that is aligned with who I am and how I was created and how I was made? Right? And, and I absolutely love also the idea of arming parents with information and knowledge to help them be let’s see.
Victoria Volk
00:02:30 – 00:02:37
What’s the word I wanna use? A more aligned parent for their child.
Alexandra Cole
00:02:32 – 00:02:32
Yeah. 100%
Victoria Volk
00:02:33 – 00:02:37
Based on their child’s design. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:02:37 – 00:02:37
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:02:38 – 00:03:00
Because if youngest is 15, if I would have known what I know now about human design, about my own design, about my kids, All 3 of them are manifesting generators. I’m a manifester. Like, I was exhausted. Like, motherhood, like, totally exhausted me to the point where, like, you can question, like, oh my god.
Victoria Volk
00:03:00 – 00:03:02
What did I sign up for?
Alexandra Cole
00:03:03 – 00:03:12
I can only imagine. I have one little manifesting generator, and that’s already a lot. I can’t imagine having 3 of them running around.
Victoria Volk
00:03:12 – 00:03:16
And they’re all, like, the first 2 or 18 months apart and the yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:03:16 – 00:03:16
Wow.
Victoria Volk
00:03:16 – 00:03:20
Yeah. I had 3 under in 5 under 5 years. So
Alexandra Cole
00:03:20 – 00:04:21
That’s impressive. Especially as a manifester, that is incredibly impressive. And, I mean, I would also say too, from a grief perspective, I think both of us lost a parent very young in life. And if I had understood my design better or if, God forbid, anything like that ever happens in my immediate family, having human design as a tool to just better understand a child’s emotional world and how they’re designed to navigate these types of major traumas and just life changing events, especially when it comes to kind of your environment and how that shifts. It allows you to show up in a much more kind of supportive way for that child because you know exactly kind of what their patterning is and how to, yes, align with that and support that in how you are tending to them and caring for them.
Victoria Volk
00:04:21 – 00:04:39
I really wanna get to your story in how you got to where you are in with human design and how this all came to be. And so would you please take us back in time and to that loss and how like, what transpired in the in between?
Alexandra Cole
00:04:40 – 00:05:22
Oh, man. That loss was early on and probably well before, obviously, human design even was at all in my kind of frame of reference, but I lost my mom to breast cancer at age 10. I’m the oldest of 3 kids, and at the time, we were living in the Netherlands. And my dad did an incredible job of kind of stepping in and trying to play Mom and Dad, we were surrounded by an incredible support system. So all things considered, I look back and can only feel grateful in a way for having experienced it in the way that I did.
Alexandra Cole
00:05:22 – 00:06:25
But nonetheless, right, at 10 years old, experiencing such a huge loss, especially as the eldest child, I think, forced me to grow up very very quickly and forced me to kind of grapple with some of these, like, bigger life questions, a lot earlier on than the average 10 year old, let’s say. So I think I was quite a mature teenager in terms of my life experience, but also kind of, like, my way of connecting and understanding others. And especially when it came to my emotional world, I was very aware of all the emotions I was feeling. I just didn’t necessarily feel like it was appropriate for me to express those anymore because I wanted to be strong for my family. So for a good 8 years, I shut down my own kind of emotional response and probably a huge part of that grieving process.
Alexandra Cole
00:06:26 – 00:07:01
Until fast forward at 18, I moved from the Netherlands to the United States, and my mom had actually studied in the United States. So it was kind of a little bit of, like, following in her footsteps. And I get here, and within the 1st year, I fall madly in love with this American man. And it was the first time since losing my mom that I had this huge fear of losing this individual and the impact that that might have. And it kind of actually opened the door for me to experience grief because I was, 1, I think, far enough removed from my family where I felt like I could do that.
Alexandra Cole
00:07:01 – 00:07:55
And 2, I had this trigger of someone I cared so deeply about, and the thought of losing him was, like, such a kind of miserable like, the the pain was, like, so great associated with that that I allowed myself to finally grieve, and I think I cried. Like, basically, I made up for those 8 years of not shedding a tear. And this poor man, who I’m now married to, so I can I can say this? Like, he was incredible, but he probably didn’t understand everything that I was kind of processing and going through at the moment itself. Anyway, fast forward a few years, I graduated college and picked the path of least resistance in the sense that I very much went down the road that I felt like everyone expected me to and that I felt pressured to in a way, which was a very kind of corporate path in management consulting.
Alexandra Cole
00:07:56 – 00:08:29
And I kinda had most of my life planned out. I was a very kind of a logical, rational thinker when it came to kind of where I thought I was heading. And maybe that was also part of all of those years of kind of shutting down that emotional world even though my emotions, especially according to human design, are my most trustworthy inner compass. I just wasn’t listening to them. A few years into that career, a friend of mine asked me to help her brainstorm a new business idea that she had.
Alexandra Cole
00:08:30 – 00:09:09
And I would meet with her before work. I would meet with her after work, and I was doing 12 to 16 hour days. So this was like a commitment to meet with her, but I became so passionate about what it was that she was working on to the point that she eventually asked me to leave my job and cofound this company with her. And I think I thought about it for maybe a few days and felt this full body just yes in response to it. It was a complete conviction that this was what I was meant to do, and it came from this place of genuine excitement and passion.
Alexandra Cole
00:09:10 – 00:09:28
And it was such a departure from how I had lived my life before, which was very much kind of like, mind oriented that the fact and I did. I ended up leaving my job, starting this company with her, and we had no clients. We had no track record. We had no funding. We had no experience.
Alexandra Cole
00:09:28 – 00:10:07
Nothing. We made it all work, but it was a few months after that that I reflected on this this leap and how I was able to make it with so much confidence and conviction when really there was, you know, no logical reason to do so. And it set me on this path of self development, trying to better understand what that was inside of me and why I finally allowed that to make the decision instead of the kind of rational brain. And that’s what ultimately led me to discover human design, which told me, like, hey. Listen.
Alexandra Cole
00:10:07 – 00:10:52
You’re actually here to listen to your gut, to listen to your emotions. And the more I started leaning into that, the more myself I felt. Like, I had I realized that for those past, like, 10, 12 years, I had been kind of a you know, trying again to live up to this expectation that I thought other people had of me, of who I needed to be for them in that moment, and had lost the essence of who I was along the way. And so that’s really what human design allowed me to do. And after several years of just kind of using it to heal myself and to allow myself to grieve in many ways, I started using it with other people, friends and family at first.
Alexandra Cole
00:10:52 – 00:11:14
And over the course of a few years, it kind of blossomed into this side hustle and then something more than a side hustle. And now here I am working with clients every day, helping them better understand, you know, the most aligned use of their energy and how to become a more authentic version of themselves.
Victoria Volk
00:11:15 – 00:11:56
I’m curious too for you. I’m sure I already know the answer. But what if what human design has helped me to is to better understand the environment in which I lived with the people that I shared it with. Right? So for instance, especially a parent, you know, if you don’t have their exact details, you know, birthplace and things like that, it can be a little difficult, but what did that give you when you, when you started to learn more about human design and, and for being so young and losing your mother, did it help you to really get to know her in a way that you couldn’t because she’d passed, you know, through her human design?
Alexandra Cole
00:11:57 – 00:12:06
Such a good question. Yes. It did really help me with that. And, also, it helped me see certain parts of myself that I share with her. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:12:06 – 00:12:47
And also understand why certain aspects of her are so memorable to me and other parts, you know, you it’s it’s hard for you to understand unless someone else kinda tells a story and you’re like, like, oh, right. I guess she was like that too. One thing that human design really helped me understand, though, is the fact that so my dad is also an emotional. He’s an emotional manifesting generator, and my brother and sister are non emotionals. And so for people who aren’t familiar with human design, what this means is that both my dad and I experience the world first and foremost through our own emotional lens.
Alexandra Cole
00:12:47 – 00:13:34
Like, we have this inherent emotional bias about how we are experiencing everything around us. And we feel our own emotions first and foremost, and they’re very much supposed to inform how we operate. My brother and sister, they feel other people’s emotions first and foremost. So their kind of experience of the world is more shaped by other people’s emotions, and they sometimes have a harder time distinguishing where they end and where someone else begins. And I think with if you think about our kind of family unit, obviously, my dad is going through an insurmountable amount of grief and was making a concerted effort to actually share that grief with us.
Alexandra Cole
00:13:34 – 00:13:43
Right? He took the approach of, I wanna be open with my kids. I wanna talk about how sad I am. Right? And so he did that.
Alexandra Cole
00:13:44 – 00:14:09
But because both my brother and sister are open emotions, they were incredibly sensitive to that. So they picked up on everything and then started kind of absorbing it and carrying that weight. And I think as a 10 year old, I intuitively saw that and decided, you know, there’s not there’s no space for another emotional in this family. Right? Like, I can’t do that same thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:14:09 – 00:15:00
So I’m just gonna kind of, like, shut mine down so that my dad can have that space and we can kind of all absorb or at least maybe even with my siblings. Like, I’m gonna try and shield them from my dad’s emotions, right, instead of add to that kind of, like, fire hose effect. Like, recognizing that and the role that made forced me to play has been really helpful, not just in kind of making sense of kind of my journey, but also making sense in my relationship with my dad and why certain things that he does trigger me so much. Right? And so I think those that, especially in these past kind of 5 years in becoming a mom, I’ve reflected on this a lot, and human design has definitely been, invaluable in that process.
Victoria Volk
00:15:02 – 00:15:05
And how has that shaped how you parent your son?
Alexandra Cole
00:15:05 – 00:15:37
So my son is also an emotional, and my husband is a nonemotional. So I think just knowing what I know about human design, the biggest takeaway here is that kids, a lot of it is nature. Right? They come into this world with a certain set of patterns and behaviors and sensitivities. And as parents, there’s this tendency to want to kind of manage and control that.
Alexandra Cole
00:15:37 – 00:15:55
And we think that’s that we’re protecting them in a way. Right? We think we’re we’re setting them up for success. But, really, what I’ve learned is that the best thing you can do as a parent is kind of do less. Like, step back and allow them to kind of grow into that little human they’re designed to be.
Alexandra Cole
00:15:55 – 00:16:40
And having their human design chart makes that much easier because you can kind of see, oh, wait. Actually, they’re living their design because especially when who they’re designed to be might be different from you or opposite from you in terms of how their emotions work or how they’re designed to communicate or make decisions. We only know what we know and we look at the world again through that kind of, like, biased lens. And so when you’re raising a child, it’s really hard to let go of that, and human design has allowed me to do that. So, for example, when my son has an emotional reaction to something, and he’s a very emotional child because his first reaction is always gonna be this, like, big emotional outburst.
Alexandra Cole
00:16:40 – 00:16:48
My husband’s response to that typically is, you’re okay. You’re okay. You’re okay. There’s no need cry. No tears.
Alexandra Cole
00:16:48 – 00:17:10
No tears. Right? Like, that’s just because he is not emotional, so he doesn’t understand the significance of allowing yourself to kind of feel those feelings. I, on the other hand, and now I’ve also, you know, not trained, but coached my husband to respond in a similar way, I will just give my son a big hug and say, let it out. Let’s ride this emotional wave together.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:10 – 00:17:34
Right? Like, tell me what you’re feeling. Tell me what happened. Right? And I don’t ever try to shut that down because I know that this if I start to kind of manipulate his emotional experience, he is gonna lose it’s like losing a limb, right, for him because it’s such an important way of how he is designed to make sense of the world.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:35 – 00:17:50
And if he doesn’t feel like he can trust it or he feels like it’s wrong to respond emotionally, he’s gonna do what I did for 8 years and pay the price. So that’s just one small example of how I’m using this as a parent.
Victoria Volk
00:17:50 – 00:17:57
And when it comes to grief, that is a massively important example. Massively.
Alexandra Cole
00:17:57 – 00:17:57
Yes. Yeah
Victoria Volk
00:17:58 – 00:18:15
And if you if your child is a manifester, good luck to you. Oh. I know. You know, I’ve learned, like, I was probably just an some sort of enigma to my mother. Like but you know what?
Victoria Volk
00:18:15 – 00:18:23
I learned that my mother was is a projector, which I was like, woah. That makes sense.
Alexandra Cole
00:18:24 – 00:18:47
Yeah. That makes so much sense. And that’s one of the things that I love about human design is it does give it allows you to see other people in a much more objective way, where you can start to understand, oh, this is why I must have been so challenging for my mom. Right? And it is just it doesn’t excuse any behavior.
Alexandra Cole
00:18:47 – 00:19:25
It just gives you a different lens through which to kind of witness and observe and see the things that happened, because, yeah, as a manifester, right, part of what you’re here to do is to trigger people, like, in a way. Right? Like, you are here to challenge people. And sometimes that can feel really uncomfortable. And if as a parent, you’re not cut out for that or you don’t know how to handle that and you’re not aware of where that’s coming from, it can be really challenging.
Alexandra Cole
00:19:25 – 00:19:41
And she would just have wanted to kind of shut your manifesting tendencies down. Right? Or in an effort to protect you, she’s like, you can’t be this big. I need to, like, I need to limit this person. I need to kind of, like, you know, encourage them to control it.
Alexandra Cole
00:19:42 – 00:19:52
Exactly. Exactly. When, really, what a manifester kid needs to be able to do is, like, do their thing. And with complete freedom, throw a tantrum. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:19:52 – 00:20:12
Like, let it out, get angry, and move on. But if you tell them, like, you can’t do that, that’s not appropriate, That manifestor is gonna grow up to be a shell of who they actually could be. Because, again, they don’t trust any of those, like, inner voices that are communicating to them constantly or trying to.
Victoria Volk
00:20:13 – 00:20:27
Amen to that. I can tell you wholeheartedly. Because I first discovered human design, like, a little over a year ago.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:20 – 00:20:20
Wow!
Victoria Volk
00:20:20 – 00:20:26
So it has been like yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:27 – 00:20:27
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:20:27 – 00:20:53
Mind blowing. So since we’re on this topic, can you quickly run down do a rundown of, like, the child You describe the child manifestor because that’s what I am. But can you quickly just kinda describe the other types, energy types.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:40 – 00:20:40
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:20:40 – 00:20:53
Children, for people who are listening, who may feel like there’s I I think this can help with conflict within parent child dynamics. So I think it’s I’m glad the conversation went here.
Victoria Volk
00:20:53 – 00:20:53
So.
Alexandra Cole
00:20:54 – 00:21:20
Absolutely. And as I describe it too, this also applies to adults, and to inner children. Like, a lot of the time when I talk about when I, you know, share content through that parenting lens, I get responses from people that say, you know, this helped me so much to heal my inner child Mhmm. And trauma that I experienced as a kid, just understanding what that, like, little version of me must have been experiencing in that moment. So there’s 5 energy types.
Alexandra Cole
00:21:20 – 00:22:13
And just kind of at a very high level, this whole system, human design, essentially, it’s based on your birth time date and place and the energetic frequency that was present in the exact moment you took your first breath. And you wanna imagine it’s like you were imprinted with this energetic frequency. And the chart itself is like that, like, blueprint to how your energy is designed to operate in the most authentic and the most effortless way. Right? Like, when you are listening to that blueprint and operating in alignment with it, there’s this element of flow to life where you’re still gonna encounter challenging situations, but you’ll move through them with a sense of confidence and conviction and trust in your own kind of inner authority to be able to overcome those things.
Alexandra Cole
00:22:14 – 00:23:12
So the foundation of this system is something that we call an energy type, and I often describe it as, like, the outer layer of the onion where there are so many more nuanced layers to the system that get into an incredible amount of detail in terms of, you know, how you’re designed to eat, the types of environments that are most supportive for you, how you’re designed to communicate and emote and all those things. But the first piece to understand is your energy type. There’s 5 different energy types, and each type has a slightly different way of investing energy in order to get the greatest return on that investment in terms of fulfillment and purpose and reward. So we talked about the manifestor and the manifestor little kid. Manifestors, their energy is designed to be quite extreme in terms of highs and lows.
Alexandra Cole
00:23:12 – 00:23:55
Like, they’ll have these, like, huge creative emotional bursts where literally they can go for days on this, like, energetic high, and then it’ll come crashing down and they will need to rest, reset, recharge. But, ultimately, that’s because manifestor’s role in this world is to initiate, to create things, to challenge that status quo and initiate newness and novelty. And so you need a lot of, like, powerful energy to do that, and you also need to not give a damn about everyone else around you. And that’s that triggering piece that I was talking about. And that’s why when you meet a little manifestor kid, they’re just off doing their thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:23:55 – 00:24:04
Right? Like, they get this urge. They need to, you know, dig a hole in the garden. And they just grab the shovel, and they just start digging. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:24:04 – 00:24:27
They’re not here to ask for permission. They’re not here to look for validation. They’re just here to follow those urges and convictions. And as a parent, again, that can be really triggering because we’re told we have to control our kids, and our kids’ behavior is a reflection on us. And so when that kid just grabs that shovel without asking and starts digging, your immediate reaction is, hey.
Alexandra Cole
00:24:27 – 00:24:54
You didn’t you didn’t ask me. We can’t just do that. Right? And so you can imagine how that leads to a lot of pressure and conditioning for that child to not be themselves and to adapt and adjust. And suddenly, these manifestors start to ask for permission and look for validation, which prevents them from starting the magical movements and things that they are supposed to.
Alexandra Cole
00:24:54 – 00:25:37
So that’s the manifestor kit. Then the second kind of, group I’d like to talk about are projectors. So projectors make up about 20% of the population, and projectors are very much the kind of guides. So if manifestors are here to kind of initiate and be the spark, Projectors are here to refine and guide and optimize. And so projectors actually have a much more moderate ebb and flow of energy, and they are really most effective when they can focus on one thing at a time and dedicate themselves to something for a short intense burst of time, and then they too need to kind of rest and reset.
Alexandra Cole
00:25:37 – 00:26:15
So projector kids are the types of kids that, one, are gonna be fascinated by how things work and kind of optimizing or understanding how to, kind of improve or better something. Like, they love fixing and solving things. And they’re gonna be able to kind of sit quietly working on a puzzle or with some type of toy for that, like, kind of short intense burst of time. And then they’re going to need to kind of rest their mind and sit back and almost observe. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:26:15 – 00:26:50
There’s a there’s a lot of power for a projector in just being free to observe instead of there being pressure to actually create or output. Projectors sometimes, though, because they have that ability to see how something can be done better, they can come across as quite critical. And if they tend to kind of share their insights and observations without being invited to do so, it can come across as a little bit of a, like, know it all. Right? Or, again, overly, like, a glass half-empty kind of thing.
Alexandra Cole
00:26:50 – 00:27:44
And so for projectors, the name of the game is really learning to wait for that invitation, to wait to be recognized, to wait to be acknowledged, to wait for someone to kind of celebrate your ability to problem solve or your natural gifts that all projectors have and kind of invite you to share those. So if you have a projector child, really being mindful that, like, all they want is for you to see them clearly and for you to invite them to share their gifts. They’re not here to go and initiate in the same way that manifestors are. They’re really here to be a little bit more passive until you invite them in. And they also are gonna need a lot of alone time, and they are going to do best when they have your 1 on 1 attention as opposed to, you know, bigger groups of people, which can be quite overwhelming for that projector initially.
Alexandra Cole
00:27:44 – 00:28:34
Now we get to the largest cohort of people, and that is the generators and the manifesting generators. So these two groups together make up about 70% of the population, and that’s because this group’s energy is very consistent. These generators and manifesting generators are here to almost act as, like, the motors of society in the sense that they have this ability to apply themselves in a very consistent, persistent way to things. And they don’t have that ebb and flow as much as the manifestors and the projectors do. Now for generators and manifesting generators, it’s really important that they are applying that energy to think that excitement excite them and bring them joy.
Alexandra Cole
00:28:34 – 00:29:01
So for them, it’s a really kind of physical response that they will feel towards something. Even, you know, if you have a generator, a manifesting generator child, pay attention to what their body does when they are loving what they’re doing. Right? Whether it’s they’re eating their favorite food and you hear them just go, like, mmm, they, like, start making noises. Or my son, when he’s doing something that he really enjoys, he starts to rock back and forth.
Alexandra Cole
00:29:01 – 00:29:28
Right? Or he does this, like, happy dance. It’s a very physical response. And so as a parent, pay attention to where what gives your kids that physical response because that’s a clear telltale sign that they’re meant to do more of it, that it’s a great use of their time and energy. When generators and manifesting generators are forced to do things that don’t really excite them or light them up, it’ll be quite draining.
Alexandra Cole
00:29:28 – 00:30:35
But because they have that consistent source of energy, they don’t necessarily hit that point of burnout like a manifestor or a projector will. And so what’s really hard is that most adult generators and manifesting generators have been conditioned to basically be these martyrs that say yes to every request, do a lot of stuff for other people because it makes that other person happy, and they happen to have the energetic capacity to do so. But they’ve lost touch with what actually brings them joy and what excites them. And so they’re operating at, you know, 50 to 60% of their full potential, and that full potential can only be accessed when they prioritize their own joy and excitement. And so as a parent of a young generator and manifesting generator, helping them recognize that, helping them realize that, like, they don’t have to say yes to doing what other people want them to do, and it is completely valid to prioritize their own needs and what brings them joy, even over yours as the parent.
Alexandra Cole
00:30:35 – 00:31:11
Right? Like, that’s a really important lesson for them to learn. The slight difference between these two types is that whereas generators can be a little bit more focused in their application of energy, manifesting generators are nonlinear beings, and that they have a little bit of that manifestor erratic nature while they will move very quickly from one interest to the other, and they love a variety of things. And they’re like I mean, with my son, for example, I’ve learned to never clean up after him because I think he’s done. And I then, as the generator mom, I’m like, okay.
Alexandra Cole
00:31:11 – 00:31:34
I’m gonna start to organize and clean this up. But, actually, he wants to circle back to it an hour from now after he’s, like, pulled out another 5 other toys. Right? And when we’re on an airplane, I have to have, like, you know, 20 different activities versus if I had a projector child, maybe I just need 3 and he could play with each for an hour. My son needs to just, like, constantly cycle through things.
Alexandra Cole
00:31:35 – 00:32:16
So that’s the generator manifesting generator, and then the very last type is a reflector. And reflectors are just as the name suggests. They’re like these magical unicorn snowflake kids that are highly sensitive and really designed to reflect the health and well-being of whatever community that they are a part of. So they are the product of their environment in many ways, And a reflector is like a mirror. So, if you have a reflector in your family, looking at them and how they’re doing and how they’re showing up and what their health and well-being is like is going to tell you what’s going on with the rest of the family.
Alexandra Cole
00:32:17 – 00:32:44
Because they are constantly absorbing everyone else’s energy, emotions, fears. Right? All of that. And in a way, they are then reflecting that back to you. And so for reflector children, it’s really important for them to understand how to manage this hypersensitivity because it can really throw you.
Alexandra Cole
00:32:44 – 00:33:12
Right? Because you can be feeling totally good, and then one person walks into the room. Right? Or one kid comes to class that day and is dealing with something really, really and you don’t even know what it is, but you feel in your body suddenly this grief or pain or anger that isn’t yours, and yet you’re still experiencing it as if it is. And so that’s something that is a lot for a little child to handle.
Alexandra Cole
00:33:12 – 00:33:57
And you might notice that reflectors do get sick more frequently. They do feel overwhelmed a lot depending and they’re very sensitive to environment, people as well as just, like, the energy and the vibe of the setting that they’re in. So as a parent, the best thing that you can do with a Reflector Child is teach them that a lot of the time what they’re experiencing isn’t actually theirs to carry. Right? And, also, be super mindful of, like, what are the environments and people that they seem most at peace around, and how can I make sure we’re spending most of our time in those types of places and avoiding the people that seem to, like, have the greatest triggering effect on them?
Victoria Volk
00:33:58 – 00:33:59
That was a lot.
Alexandra Cole
00:33:59 – 00:33:59
I know.
Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:00
Thank you so much.
Victoria Volk
00:34:00 – 00:34:15
No. In a good way. In a in a good way because I hope people listening can are reflecting on their own lives and take from what you shared and apply it. And, hopefully, they already know their body type or their energy type.
Alexandra Cole
00:34:15 – 00:34:16
Energy type.
Victoria Volk
00:34:16 – 00:34:38
Yep. And or have their design. Right? They know their design. And if you don’t, I’m gonna put a link in the show notes where you can find that information out and then come back and listen to this again and find your children’s human design and listen to this, like, 2 or 3 times if you have to really take in what was shared because I think it’s so important.
Victoria Volk
00:34:38 – 00:34:49
The stuff that we I can’t even imagine being a reflector. Like, that just sounds so exhausting to me. Do I even know a reflector? I don’t even know if I know a reflector.
Alexandra Cole
00:34:50 – 00:34:54
I mean, they’re 1 only 1% of the population. So it’s possible that you don’t.
Victoria Volk
00:34:54 – 00:34:57
Well, in manifestors are, like, 9%. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:34:57 – 00:34:57
Mmm.Yup
Victoria Volk
00:34:57 – 00:35:08
So we’re kind of a rare breed too in a way, but no. Thank you so much for all of that. It’s just good for me. I’ve heard it, you know, I’ve heard it in other ways. And it’s when you hear it a different way, it’s just yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:35:08 – 00:35:27
I really love that. So thank you so much. I wanna go back to, like, your story though, and, like, how this all kind of played out, like, so with your relationship so when you first met your now husband, did you know his human design? Were you into human design? Not not at that time.
Victoria Volk
00:35:27 – 00:35:28
Not yet.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:28 – 00:35:30
Nope. Not yet at all.
Victoria Volk
00:35:30 – 00:35:30
Yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:31 – 00:35:56
Yep. And it’s been I I often credit human design to, you know, the fact that we still have a thriving relationship now 16 years later. Because neither of us were really planning on meeting our person that young. We still wanted to do a lot and travel a lot. And we, especially him, needed a lot of freedom to explore all those things before we settled down.
Alexandra Cole
00:35:56 – 00:36:29
So we didn’t get married until 10 years after we met, and then we took another few years before we had our son. But learning about his human design allowed me to be such a better partner for him because up until I learned about it, there were certain aspects. So he’s a projector, right, which, like I said, projectors need a lot of alone time. And I remember so distinctly, even in college too, you know, we’d have these, like, free afternoons. And my immediate response was, great.
Alexandra Cole
00:36:29 – 00:36:50
Let’s go do something. And you could tell he did not want to. Sometimes he kind of appeased me, but most of the time, it’s like, I just I just kinda wanna be by myself in my room. And I could not understand, and I would take it personally. So I would assume, oh, he’s not into me or he’s not into me as much as I’m into him.
Alexandra Cole
00:36:50 – 00:37:25
Right? And when I discovered that he was a projector, it all made so much sense. And I could finally stop taking those things personally because he would just sit in his room and watch a movie. And in my head, I’m like, well, I could just watch the movie with you, but it wouldn’t have been the same. Like, he really needed to be in his own aura, his own energy in order to fully recharge from the just busyness of being in college and playing a sport and you know, the whole social scene and life, like, that was really important for him.
Alexandra Cole
00:37:25 – 00:38:27
And I wish I knew in college because it would have saved me a lot of anxiety. But especially now also, you know, becoming parents and understanding, for example, that for a projector, starting his day slowly is really really supportive and allows him to show up more fully as a dad and as a partner later on in the day. Whereas for me, as a generator, I kind of wake up and immediate this is not true for all generators, but for me, I kind of have this, like, you know, steady current of energy that I can use as a parent. And so I take the majority of the morning shifts because I know that then later on, if I need him around dinner time, my husband’s gonna be present and ready to go. But if I or on the mornings where he does have to do the, you know, 6:30, 7 AM wake up, by the end of the day, he’s shot, and he needs more of that solo time to recharge.
Alexandra Cole
00:38:27 – 00:39:12
So it’s just learning to understand that and then not comparing his energetic outputs, right, to mine because they’re incomparable, and one isn’t better than the other. It’s just different. So when he has a solo weekend, for example, my husband knows that he can only be on, quote unquote, as that parent for 2, 3 hours at a time comfortably before it starts to become really really difficult. So he will, in advance, make sure he’s got his parents that are gonna take a little window, that we’ve got a babysitter that might take the little window to set him up for success. Whereas I am much better able to just kind of grind it out for 48 hours.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:12 – 00:39:36
Right? And for me, the more important thing is making sure that throughout the day, I get to do things that excite me and bring me joy and that I get to take my son to, like, my favorite coffee shop or treat us to, you know, a delicious dinner or get an hour at my, like, favorite Pilates studio. Like, that’s much more important to me and is not at all significant to my husband in that case.
Victoria Volk
00:39:36 – 00:39:45
I love that. What’s interesting is that I learned that my husband and I, he’s like the male version of me. We’re both
Alexandra Cole
00:39:45 – 00:39:47
Is he also a manifestor?
Victoria Volk
00:39:47 – 00:39:51
4, 6 emotional manifestor. Exactly.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:49 – 00:39:50
Wow.
Victoria Volk
00:39:51 – 00:39:51
He and I both.
Alexandra Cole
00:39:52 – 00:39:53
What are the odds? Like, that
Victoria Volk
00:39:53 – 00:40:12
Like what are the Odds? I 20 years. 20 years. But just knowing the things that I know, like, I’ve been kinda digging into the gates of love, which really has I mean, we have a lot of these, what are they called?
Victoria Volk
00:40:13 – 00:40:14
The gates of compromise?
Alexandra Cole
00:40:14 – 00:40:16
Yeah. Compromise channels.
Victoria Volk
00:40:16 – 00:40:41
Yeah. We have, like, 5 of them.
Alexandra Cole
00:40:18 – 00:40:18
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:40:18 – 00:40:41
And so just learning about those has been really eye opening and, like, just how he, like, you know, he’s he’s such a giver of of love and affection and, like, being the provider. And and when he’s not feeling like he’s getting something , getting that in return, like, the equivalent of that, like, he can feel a little bit of
Alexandra Cole
00:40:41 – 00:40:43
Taken for granted. He got anger.
Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Exactly. Yeah.
Alexandra Cole
00:40:43 – 00:40:43
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
00:40:43 – 00:40:53
So as a manifestor, anger is not our self theme. So when I feel myself getting angry about anything, it’s, oh, what what’s going on?
Alexandra Cole
00:40:54 – 00:41:22
And that’s another really good one to be aware of in partners and in kids too. Right? Because each of those energy types I just described has, you you know, what Victoria just mentioned, this not self theme, which is basically what comes up when you are compromising on your natural energetic pattern. And so for manifestors, that’s anger. So if you notice your child getting angry, your manifestor kid, it’s usually just a sign that they’re being limited in some way.
Alexandra Cole
00:41:22 – 00:42:05
They’re being forced to not listen to that, like, urge that they want to follow or pursue. And for a generator or manifesting generator, it’s gonna be frustration. So if you notice your child getting frustrated, right, or feeling more of that, like, stuck, that frustrated energy, that’s usually a sign that they’re being forced to do many thing too many things that don’t light them up, that aren’t exciting to them. And as a projector, the not-self is bitterness or a lot of the times it comes across as resentment. So if a projector is, you know, not being invited or recognized enough or they feel like they’re pushing themselves too hard beyond their energetic capacity.
Alexandra Cole
00:42:05 – 00:42:29
Right? They’re not given enough time to rest and recharge. They’ll start to get resentful about that. And then reflectors, the final one is disappointment. So if you notice that a reflector is, like, constantly disappointed in themselves or in the world and they just feel let down, that’s a sign that they probably, aren’t in the right environment.
Alexandra Cole
00:42:29 – 00:42:44
Right? That they’re not surrounded by the right people and that they are not able to or that they have absorbed far too much of everyone else’s energy and don’t really know what to do with it or can’t figure out how to let it go.
Victoria Volk
00:42:44 – 00:43:04
So how has this information helped you specifically? Because I’m sure you’ve had more grieving experiences since your mom’s passing, but how has the losses you’ve experienced since then? Been in how do I wanna word this? I think you know what I’m getting at. But, like
Alexandra Cole
00:43:04 – 00:43:04
Mhmm.
Victoria Volk
00:43:05 – 00:43:05
How do you use
Alexandra Cole
00:43:05 – 00:43:08
How do I use human design to support that process?
Victoria Volk
00:43:08 – 00:43:17
Yes. And where would one look at their human design to see where like, where are some areas for people to look in at their human design when it comes to grief?
Alexandra Cole
00:43:17 – 00:44:00
So it’s helped me in so many ways, and 3 come to mind immediately. The first being the energy type piece, and this is mostly around how to support yourself best as you go through that grief. So, again, for me, I know I’m going to feel most like myself and most energized when I am creating enough space to do things that light me up and bring me joy. So even in the face of well, especially in the face of grief, that becomes that much more important, right, to carve out that time for myself. And for projectors, for example, rest becomes that much more important that you’re not pushing yourself.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:01 – 00:44:32
And for manifestors, like, honoring your energetic ups and downs and your desires in that moment and letting go of what other people think becomes that much more important when you’re going through grief. So that’s one. The other piece is that emotional center that we already talked about. So I know that for me, it’s really important for me to allow myself to feel my feelings and to ride that wave. And I can now almost enjoy that process in a weird way.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:32 – 00:44:47
Right? Because I know it’s gonna I know that wave is gonna crash at some moment. Usually, there’s this wave like pattern to emotions, which I think also very much mirrors grief, right, where it kind of, like, comes rolling in. It builds. It builds.
Alexandra Cole
00:44:47 – 00:45:05
It builds. Then there’s this crescendo moment where you’re feeling so much. And then, eventually, that wave crashes, and you kind of find yourself bobbing at the surface in more of kind of that cool, calm, collected space. And you’re still feeling, but the charge has disappeared. Like, it’s less overwhelming.
Alexandra Cole
00:45:06 – 00:45:30
And so understanding that pattern has helped me a lot because I can kind of gauge where I am on that wave, and I can know, okay, it’s gonna crash soon, and that’s the place where I really wanna sit and reflect for a little bit. And be like, okay. What is what is this feeling trying to tell me? Because I know for me that the feelings are always trying to communicate something. So that’s another piece.
Alexandra Cole
00:45:30 – 00:45:55
I allow myself to really sit with things more as opposed to feel like I need to act or do something to resolve it. I know that that wave pattern is gonna continue to exist. Whereas, if you are an open emotional or a non emotional, so that emotional center is what we call undefined and you know you’re more sensitive to other people. If you’re going through grief, you might actually wanna isolate a little bit more. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:45:55 – 00:46:36
You might actually wanna remove yourself from the other grieving people because you it will almost overshadow your ability to kind of sit with your own grief because you’re gonna be feeling everyone else’s and then feel pressure, right, to respond to that or do something about their grief. So that’s a really helpful insight. And then the last thing that I’d say is looking at profile. So there’s this element in human design called profile, which speaks more to your personality and really to the how, to, like, how you approach things in life. And there’s 12 different profiles, and each profile consists of two numbers.
Alexandra Cole
00:46:37 – 00:47:14
And each of the numbers in the profile represent, like, an archetype that lives within you. So when Victoria was just saying we’re both 4 6 manifestors, the 4 6 is her profile and her husband’s profile. Each of these numbers also can tell you a little bit about, like, how you might process grief most effectively. So really quickly, the number one is known as the investigator archetype. So these are people who will want to know as much as possible and get into the research and feel most comfortable when they have all the data points and all the information.
Alexandra Cole
00:47:15 – 00:47:40
Right? So, for example, when it comes to grieving, these might be the people if, let’s say, it has something to do with an illness. Their immediate thing is I’m gonna research everything that, like, possible about this particular illness and, like, what the statistics are saying or they might delve into, I want to understand like the science behind grief and, like, what the different stages are. Right? Like, that’s very much the, like, one line.
Alexandra Cole
00:47:40 – 00:48:46
The 2, number 2 line is the naturally gifted person. It’s the person who, kind of picks things up very easily, intuitively, and naturally, doesn’t really need to study anything, but just knows in their bones certain things to be true or how to do certain things, Twos benefit a lot from alone time and having the ability to kind of in a safe cocoon-like space do their thing. So in times of grief, a 2 might feel like they really they just wanna, like, close the door to their bedroom and cry or journal or whatever that might look like, but they might feel this need to wanna do it themselves and to really get, like, fully absorbed in their own process and whatever feels good to them at that moment in time to move through it. Threes are like the experimenters. Threes are the the people who learn best through trial and error and throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks.
Alexandra Cole
00:48:46 – 00:48:57
So if you’re a 3 and you’re grieving, you might try all the different things. You might try a certain form of therapy. You might try journaling. You might try painting. You might try meditation.
Alexandra Cole
00:48:58 – 00:49:22
Right? And you just keep kind of, like, whatever you hear about or whatever sparks your interest, I encourage you to experiment with it and see if it supports you and feel supportive. Because the only way you’re gonna figure out what is going to help you through this grieving process is by just trying a lot of different things. And you won’t know just from hearing it from a friend. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:49:22 – 00:49:39
And just because it worked for the friend doesn’t mean it’s gonna work for you. You’ve gotta try it for yourself. Then there’s the 4. Fours are the relationship oriented people who are very sensitive to the quality of the relationships in their life. They’re very gifted connectors.
Alexandra Cole
00:49:40 – 00:50:21
They’re also people who, you know, get equally as lit up by social interactions as they can get exhausted by them, but it’s this, like, love hate relationship. Right? As you as you probably know, Victoria. So for fours, though, the support system is really really key when it comes to grief, making sure that you feel like you have those individuals in your life that you can vent to that are gonna show up for you, and being very aware of, like, what are the resources that I need, human resources as well as otherwise, in order to feel most supportive supported during this time. 5 is the problem solver.
Alexandra Cole
00:50:22 – 00:50:46
5 are the people who just immediately go into, like, fix it mode. Fives are also very much like, they feel a lot of responsibility. I have a 5. So you can see how, right, as a kid, my immediate reaction was, like, I’m gonna go into problem solving. I’m going to be the person that everyone in my family can rely on, and so that means shutting down my own emotions.
Alexandra Cole
00:50:46 – 00:51:33
So fives oftentimes have a lot going on below the surface that no one can see because they feel like they have to uphold a certain level of kind of responsibility, and they really hate disappointing other people. And they don’t like feeling vulnerable even though the vulnerability is actually the key for them. So for fives, finding even the one person or the one setting in which you can truly be vulnerable and allow that hard outer shell to kind of, like, disappear for a moment in times of grief is essential. Because in most situations, you’re gonna wanna be that, like, problem solver, and you can’t always be that. You need to also take care of yourself and your own needs in that sense.
Alexandra Cole
00:51:34 – 00:52:12
And then the last number, the 6, is the role model, and sixes are people who are wise beyond their years. They’re kind of these, like, natural advisers, very fair, very objective, and very reflective too. So for sixes as you’re going through grief, a lot of it will be reflecting on and observing kind of what’s coming up for me, what might that mean in almost like a bird’s eye view type of way. Right? Like, very much kind of, feeling almost like a little bit removed as if you’re looking at yourself going through that grieving process.
Alexandra Cole
00:52:13 – 00:52:45
But sixes might also, again, feel pressure to, play that role model part and therefore also not get, like, pulled under by their grief. And so it’s important for sixes to kind of still lean into that other number that they have because you always have 2 numbers in order to help them actually do that work because they’re very quickly gonna wanna go into, okay, what have I learned from this grief, and how can I now use that to support other people through the same process?
Victoria Volk
00:52:45 – 00:52:50
This has been gold. Just absolute gold. I how are you on time?
Alexandra Cole
00:52:50 – 00:52:54
I’m good. I probably should start wrapping it up though soon.
Victoria Volk
00:52:55 – 00:53:27
Okay. Oh, because I wanted to talk more about your story a little bit more, but, I wanna ask though quickly. So knowing what you know now, like, what gives you the most hope for the future? And, also, what is it about human design that you feel, you can bring into or how what would you suggest for Grievers to that’s not even a good question either. I’m trying to I wanna ask, like, a 1,000,000 questions right now because I’m I’m pressure root center.
Alexandra Cole
00:53:28 – 00:53:30
Mhmm. Just let it let it sit. You’ll get there.
Victoria Volk
00:53:32 – 00:53:48
Okay. What would you like to share? What do you think? I’m gonna just I’m gonna put it in your hands because you know human design far beyond my my capabilities. So what do you think is most important for people to know that you haven’t shared already?
Victoria Volk
00:53:48 – 00:53:57
And also the most important lesson and things that you have gotten from human design that you’re taking forward and that you’re utilizing in your life.
Alexandra Cole
00:53:57 – 00:54:28
I think I’ll keep it as simple and succinct as possible and say that the whole system of human design is built on this premise of differentiation, science of differentiation. Like, each of us is designed intentionally to be unique and different in terms of the way our energy works. And that, by definition, means that everyone is designed to grieve differently. Right? Like, there is no one size fits all approach to grief.
Alexandra Cole
00:54:28 – 00:54:59
And so I really encourage you to, you know, find some type of solace in that too. Right? That, like, just because, you know, something worked for someone else in your life and it’s not working for you, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you. It just means that you haven’t found the most aligned way for you to process that grief. And a lot of it comes down to understanding yourself on this, like, whole another level and trusting yourself.
Alexandra Cole
00:54:59 – 00:55:44
And I think that, again, we live in a world that puts so much pressure on us to be a certain way, to operate in a certain way. There’s a very clear right and wrong way to do things. And as a result, we compromise on or shut down and ignore those inner voices that, as kids, are much louder and then as adults kind of fade away into the background. And I hope that the grieving process serves as a way for you to start to get to know those voices again, to start to hear them more clearly, to start to kind of shut out all the shoulds that you’re feeling pressure to live up to from the outside world and really tune into what do I need, what does my body want. Right?
Alexandra Cole
00:55:45 – 00:56:26
How am I responding to whatever it is that you might be facing in that moment in time? Because if you can allow the grieving process to do that, you will come out on the other end so much stronger and more aligned and in tune with who you are really here to be. And if nothing else, right, that the grieving process is such a powerful way of just, like, shedding more layers and coming closer to, like, that authentic self. So accept and embrace this idea that we’re all here to do things differently and use this as an opportunity to kind of get to know what that unique recipe looks like for you.
Victoria Volk
00:56:27 – 00:56:29
I actually have a program. It’s called do grief differently.
Alexandra Cole
00:56:30 – 00:56:33
There you go. I didn’t even know that. See?
Victoria Volk
00:56:33 – 00:57:09
But it is a framework, and it is evidence-based. And so as I’m listening to you, I’m like, I’ve seen this work for so many different types of people, so many different personalities, of course, so many different energy types. Right? And so it is like, it is very much about digging into the emotional climate within you. And it’s individualized because it’s it’s a framework that you apply to your grief, not to your neighbor’s grief, your mother’s grief, your sister’s grief, your brother’s grief, whatever.
Victoria Volk
00:57:09 – 00:57:21
And I think that’s why it works because it’s individualized to you in your experience. And I think that’s why it works. But thank you so much. I absolutely loved this. I seriously have loved this.
Victoria Volk
00:57:21 – 00:57:55
I geek out on human design. I’m still in my own explore more exploration and experiment to, of course, and I think that will be a forever ongoing thing. I am a huge proponent of anything that helps us understand ourselves better because I think the most important thing that we can give ourselves is compassion and grace. Not like a grace as a past, but a grace of just self-grace for being able to honor yourself, who you are in the moment, and given yourself that compassion that maybe you didn’t receive growing up. Because of who you were.
Victoria Volk
00:57:55 – 00:58:11
I love Human Design for that reason. Clearly, it’s been a gift for you in your grief experience. And I really, I would love to have you back sometime again, because this was so good. This was really so good. So I really appreciate your time today.
Victoria Volk
00:58:11 – 00:58:16
And, yeah, just so so many so much thanks to you for sharing.
Alexandra Cole
00:58:16 – 00:58:18
Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk
00:58:18 – 00:58:32
I’m so impressed. Like, you just, like didn’t have to look up notes. Like, you knew it, like, the back of your hand. So I’m very impressed by that and impressed by you and everything that you shared today. Anything else you would like to share?
Alexandra Cole
00:58:32 – 00:58:50
No. I think that’s it. And just thank you for the work that you do too. I mean, I have there’s a special place in my heart for grief and finding frameworks and support to, you know, guide people through those moments in life. So thank you for the work you’re doing as well.
Victoria Volk
00:58:50 – 00:58:56
So how can people work with you? Because you have 2 websites. Right? You have 2 different websites.
Alexandra Cole
00:58:57 – 00:59:34
Yeah. I have 2 different websites. One of them is more just my personal website where you can book sessions, 1 on 1 sessions. Although I will say, because I’m about to have a baby, those sessions will pick up again in May or June, I would say. So that’s alexandracole.com. For all my other offerings and products, it’s thrivingbydesign.com, and that’s where you can find the wellness report or the well-being report that Victoria was talking about at the beginning, which takes your chart and translates it essentially into your optimal recipe for well-being.
Alexandra Cole
00:59:34 – 01:00:16
And we look at everything from rest and nourishment to mental and emotional health. So a lot of the things that we touched on today will come through in that report, but it’s very specific to well-being. It’s not, like, a broad overview of your chart, let’s say. I also, on that website, have something called Raised by Design, which is for parents who want to, at a very high level, understand their child’s design. It’s like a 20 page summary of just kind of the, like, main points that you need to understand with very tactical strategies for how to actually support your child in that way, in the most aligned way.
Victoria Volk
01:00:16 – 01:00:18
And that’s specific to your child’s chart.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:18 – 01:00:21
Correct? That’s specific to your child’s chart.
Victoria Volk
01:00:21 – 01:00:21
Gold, people.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:22 – 01:00:22
Yeah.
Victoria Volk
01:00:23 – 01:00:23
That’s gold.
Alexandra Cole
01:00:24 – 01:00:36
Yeah. So I mean, there’s a lot of other also free resources and different things on Thriving by Design, but those are 2 reports that I, you know, are worth calling out specifically.
Victoria Volk
01:00:36 – 01:00:37
How about the purpose playbook?
Alexandra Cole
01:00:38 – 01:01:22
The purpose playbook is my book that I wrote, you know, after that experience of just kind of leaving the corporate world and reflecting on, you know, what allowed me to do that with so much conviction and confidence. It doesn’t actually even talk about human design. It’s very much like a framework for helping people pinpoint, like, what their purpose and mission is in this life and how to go pursue it in a aligned way. So I wrote that book back in 2019, came out in 2020. So if you’re looking for more of the kind of step by step process to articulate and live out your purpose in life, that’s that’s a really helpful resource too.
Victoria Volk
01:01:22 – 01:01:27
I bet you could come up with a second book knowing what you know now.
Alexandra Cole
01:01:27 – 01:01:36
Maybe. I know. I know. It’s just such a big endeavor, and I’ve been you know, my biggest projects these past few years have been kids. So once I get past that, who knows?
Alexandra Cole
01:01:36 – 01:01:37
The next will be a book.
Victoria Volk
01:01:38 – 01:02:26
Quickly, the few things that from the ebook, I just wanna share from the well by design. For me, it was so surprising things were, exercise in the afternoon to cleanse my system, which I found I naturally tend to do that sometimes. I was very surprised to learn that I don’t need much food to, yeah, I don’t need as much food to feel nourished, which I was really surprising to me because I’ve just went through a coaching thing and, you know, a lot of it was like macros, and I had to eat so much food, so much food, and I had so much energy, but, you know, I could tell my something was waning at some I know it’s a point, you know, when it came to my digestion and stuff. So that was interesting. And not surprising is that I’m prone to overthinking, which but it’s so good too.
Victoria Volk
01:02:26 – 01:02:42
So I really highly recommend that people check that out. And I’ll put all of the information in the show notes, but I just wanted to quickly share that. Yes. The well by design report is excellent. I the raise by design, get your hands on it because, you know, your children are a product of your parenting.
Victoria Volk
01:02:42 – 01:02:42
Right?
Alexandra Cole
01:02:44 – 01:02:54
100%. Yeah. In a way. They’re they’re actually very like, they have their own makeup, but as a parent, you can either support or negate it. And that’s the key.
Alexandra Cole
01:02:54 – 01:03:04
Right? Like, we wanna actually, as parents, encourage them to become more of themselves as opposed to more of what the world expects them or wants them to be.
Victoria Volk
01:03:04 – 01:03:14
Yeah. No pressure.
Alexandra Cole
01:03:05 – 01:03:05
I know.
Victoria Volk
01:03:05 – 01:03:14
But I think when it comes to grief, right, this is why this information is so important and why I wanted to have you on. So thank you.
Victoria Volk
01:03:14 – 01:03:17
Thank you again. Thank you again for being here.
Alexandra Cole
01:03:17 – 01:03:19
Of course. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk
01:03:19 – 01:03:24
And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
