Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, season 5, solo episode |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this momentous 200th episode of Grieving Voices, I pause to honor the journey thus far. From heartfelt stories of loss to triumphs in resilience, this podcast has become a beacon for those navigating grief’s complex landscape. Join me as I delve into reflections on societal norms around grief, personal growth through storytelling, and gratitude for the community that has been built.
Highlights from today’s solo episode include:
- A reflection on how Grieving Voices evolved into a top global podcast.
- The importance of sharing episodes with others who may find solace in them.
- An exploration of human design and how it influenced the creation and continuation of the podcast.
- Insights into why consistency matters when creating content that serves a greater purpose.
- Lessons learned from interviewing diverse guests with powerful transformation stories.
I also look ahead at what’s coming in season 5:
- Anticipated deep dives into energy healing as support for grievers.
- Introducing listeners to new resources and modalities perhaps unfamiliar to many.
Let us continue changing how society perceives grief—one share, one story at a time. Because here at Grieving Voices—it’s not about speaking louder but speaking truer—and always alongside each other.
RESOURCES:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Grieving Voices Podcast: A Beacon of Hope at 200 Episodes
Two hundred episodes in, and the resonant waves of healing and understanding continue to ripple out from the heart of the Grieving Voices podcast. As we celebrate this impressive milestone with a special solo episode by its founder, it’s time to reflect on how this platform has evolved into a global sanctuary for those touched by grief.
A Journey Through Empathy and Community
Grieving Voices began as a whisper of comfort—a space where friends, clients, and eventually strangers shared their intimate stories of loss. It was an endeavor rooted in compassion that grew organically into one of the top 5% podcasts worldwide, echoing across borders with listenership in 89 countries. This incredible growth is not just about numbers; it’s about connections forged through shared experiences.
The host’s heartfelt thanks extend to every listener and guest who has contributed their voice or lent an ear—each one integral to building what can only be described as a refuge for grieving souls. By shattering silence around grief, each episode chips away at societal taboos that often leave individuals isolated in their sorrow.
Consistency Fueled by Purpose
Despite moments when pausing seemed like an option, our steadfast host continued marching forward driven by something greater than personal need—the collective need for understanding during life’s most challenging times. The pursuit of perfection may weave itself into production quality but make no mistake; it is matched equally by authenticity and care woven into every narrative shared.
Notable conversations have graced our airwaves featuring luminaries like Marty Cooper, Chris Kerr, Christine Carlson, and Chris Carr—all leaving indelible marks on our hearts with tales both harrowing and hopeful.
Manifesting Healing Through Storytelling
At its core lies human design principles—specifically manifestor type energy—that surge through the podcast’s veins propelling creative ventures forward without external validation but rather aligned with divine inspiration. This alignment speaks volumes about why Grieving Voices came into existence—it was more than just an idea; it was almost predestined to become what many now rely on for solace amid pain.
Our host possesses a particular affinity for underdog narratives—the kind where resilience blossoms from brokenness—and these stories resonate profoundly within our community. Every story told becomes part healing ritual for both speaker and listener alike—an emotional salve nurturing recovery while bolstering inner strength.
Evolving With Intentionality Into Season Five
As we look toward season five there’s anticipation brewing around exploring new facets such as energy healing among other modalities designed to support those walking through grief’s shadowy valleys. Listeners are encouraged to contribute anonymously suggesting topics or questions they yearn to explore further—making this journey ours collectively rather than individually dictated.
In closing out this commemorative episode comes recognition—not just self-acknowledgment—but genuine appreciation towards each person who has allowed Grieving Voices into their lives changing dialogues surrounding loss along the way. Our call remains clear: share your stories so others might find rays of hope amidst despair.
With two hundred episodes behind us yet countless more ahead filled with potential insights—we stand united ready to embrace whatever paths unfold before us knowing full well that together we change not only conversations but lives too.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome to the 200th episode of Grieving Voices Podcast exploring the depths of grief, healing, and resilience. I’m incredibly grateful to have you here joining me on this milestone occasion. As I sit here today, I’m filled with awe and gratitude. Over the past, one hundred and ninety-nine episodes, we have discussed raw and tender stories of loss, shared moments of vulnerability, and celebrated the embraceable spirit of those who have walked the path of grief. This podcast has become a sanctuary, a sacred space where we honor the complexity of grief and the unwavering strength of the human heart. Today as we gather for this special solo episode, I invite you to join me in a moment of reflection. Let us revisit the key points and takeaways that have shaped our understanding of grief and opened our hearts to the power of healing. Together, We have challenged societal norms, shattered the silence surrounding grief, and created a community that embraces compassion and understanding. As I embark on my fifth season and share this two-hundredth episode, I want to express my deepest gratitude to each and every one of you. Your support, the vulnerability of my guests, and your unwavering presence have fueled this podcast evolution and made it the beacon of hope it is today. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community and allowing me the opportunity and privilege to be in your ear holes these past four years. Thanks to you, Grieving Voices is in the top five percent of all podcasts globally. And has been downloaded in eighty-nine countries and counting. Sharing the episodes that touch your heart or that you know would be helpful to a hurting heart is what feels the podcast growth. Being helpful, offering support, and sharing resources is how we all help each other journey through life. So my dear friends let us embark on this 200th episode with open hearts, open minds, and a shared commitment to honor the unity in our grief. Together, we will continue to pave the way for a world that embraces the beauty and transformative power of grief. Welcome to Grieving Voices Episode two hundred. From starting out at zero, enlisting in friends and clients to be my first guests, to being where I am now, where I don’t have to seek out guests or sponsors, I just have to share with you that I also had zero thoughts about how long I’d be at this. It was just something I knew I wanted and needed to do. Take the title, Grieving Voices. It’s kind of brilliant, right? And yet I can’t take credit for it. It popped into my head like a lightning bolt, but it was also a creative urge long before it was a podcast title. If you’re unfamiliar with human design or specifically the manifestor type in human design, which I am, manifestors have a unique energy type that works in bursts, followed by rest. Learning about the creative urges of a manifestors, the best way I can describe how this podcast and many things I’ve created came to be. But where do a manifestor’s creative verges come from? Well, we are also the only energy type that has a direct connection to source that doesn’t need anyone else to take action. Manufacturers are the initiators, the creators, inventors, the trailblazers. The more aligned and in integrity, I have become with who I am in mind, body, and spirit the more in tune I’ve become with my personal energy, and the more connected I am to the creative urges gifted to me from my divine source that I choose to call God. And I believe we all can tap into that source, whether it’s more ethanol or spiritual or however you choose to define it. It doesn’t matter. But you just have to clear the mud and the muck that’s creating static and not giving a clear signal. The mud in the muck being the emotional baggage that you’ve been lugging around for months, years, or even decades. Grief has been the focus of my podcast from day one and it will continue to be. If you haven’t noticed, I love an underdog story. I love to be a witness to the stories of transformation. And I love to see how the broken hearted from all walks of life manage to pick up the pieces of their broken hearts, hodge, podge those pieces together, and move forward creating a new life and filling it with new stories and experiences. But more importantly, in hindsight, seeing how the heartbreaking things they’ve endured We’re also the catalyst for their evolution and the source of inspiration to truly live. Not just survive, but thrive. I see an aspect of myself and every story I hear. And with every story I touch an aspect of my grief, I may haven’t touched in a while. The stories become a healing balm to my soul just as much as I hope they become a healing balm to yours. I’ve also learned so much about myself since starting this podcast. For one, although I’ve contemplated taking a break or hiatus, several times over the years, I never did. Why? I’m not the best about consistency in many areas of my life. But when it comes to this podcast, I haven’t allowed myself to falter, and I suppose a part of that is because it’s bigger than me. It’s not about me. I played that scenario out to the end, and the disappointment I felt with myself outweighed the momentary desire for a break in the moment. I also really enjoy meeting and talking with new faces one to one from around the world. And junior high had contemplated being a journalist and war correspondent, like Walter Cronkite, because he got to ask the tough questions and travel. I guess travel aside, craving voices is the next best thing. The other thing I’ve learned about myself through the years of doing this podcast is my perfectionist tendencies, which often drive even me insane, have served me well, and I wouldn’t change it. I brought in some amazing well known guests like the inventor of the cell phone, Marty Cooper. End of life research author and guest on the Netflix docu series surviving death, Chris Kerr. New York Times best selling author and co author, Christine Carlson. And cancer thriver, New York Times best selling author and one of Oprah’s Super Bowl one hundred, Chris Carr. And the countless others who have turned their pain into triumph and share their gifts and grief wisdom with the world. I’ve put a lot of time and effort into making this podcast a safe and welcoming experience and presenting and promoting the guests and their contributions professionally and honorably. So on this two hundredth episode, I want to close by saying, from the deepest parts of my heart, Thank you for being a witness to my guest stories too. You are an integral part of my mission to change the conversation around grief. It takes a heart with ears to listen and storytellers to have the courage to share their deeply personal stories of grief, trauma, and loss. So thank you for being a heart with ears on the other end of my mic. I hope you feel inspired to share your story with another heart with ears so that as a society, We can one day talk about grief like we talk about the weather. Thank you for being here. I hope you stick around More grieving voices and solo episodes will come your way in season five. In particular, I’ll be digging more into energy healing in its role in supporting creepers. And other resources and modalities you may have never heard of before. If there is a topic you’d love for me to talk about or if you have a question or you’d like answered on on the podcast. You can remain anonymous too by the way. Check out the show notes where at the top there’s an easy peasy link to send me a message. And until next time, remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Murder, Parent Loss, Podcast |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In this week’s episode, I am honored to host Susan Snow, a beacon of hope for anyone navigating the treacherous waters of trauma and loss.
Susan is an inspiring figure as an author, international speaker, and resiliency coach. Susan bravely opened up about her experience following the tragic death of her father, an LA police detective. Her candid discussion on coping with PTSD before it was widely recognized sheds light on the silent battles many face.
In this raw conversation:
- Susan shares her firsthand experience dealing with PTSD following the violent loss of her father at age 17.
- She discusses how the lack of mental health awareness in the ’80s left her struggling alone with grief.
- We delve into how witnessing gun violence impacted Susan, leading to sleep deprivation and suicidal ideation.
- The podcast touches upon how trauma can affect familial relationships, highlighting Susan’s strained dynamic with her mother post-tragedy.
- We learn about Susan’s path to resilience: from wearing an “emotional mask” to eventually finding a therapist who understood severe trauma.
- A pivotal moment occurs during our discussion when she recounts watching coverage of the Columbine High School shootings in 1999, which triggered flashbacks — illustrating how PTSD symptoms can persist over time without proper help.
Susan’s tale teaches us something vital: In sharing our stories openly without fear or shame, we permit others to do the same. We foster conversations that might be someone else’s lifeline or inspire them towards help they’ve been reluctant to seek out themselves.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Healing Through Trauma: The Journey of Resilience
In the labyrinth of life’s challenges, few experiences cut as deeply as trauma and loss. For Susan Snow, this journey began on a fateful Halloween night in 1985 when her world was shattered by the loss of her father, an event that would shape her understanding of grief and resilience for years to come.
Susan’s story is not just one of heartache; it’s a beacon for those navigating the murky waters of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), mental health struggles, and personal growth. As we unpack Susan’s narrative, we find invaluable lessons embedded within—lessons about vulnerability, self-care, and the transformative power of therapy.
The Silent Battle Within
Imagine carrying a weight so heavy that even your closest loved ones can’t see it. This was Susan’s reality following the traumatic death of her father. In an era where conversations around mental health were scarce at best, she found herself isolated with emotions like guilt and shame while dealing with PTSD—a term barely recognized at the time.
For many like Susan who have faced similar battles silently amidst family dynamics fraught with complexities such as narcissism or addiction issues—the path to healing can seem dauntingly out-of-reach.
A Trigger Point Towards Recovery
It wasn’t until another tragedy struck—the Columbine High School shooting—that Susan’s suppressed traumas resurfaced intensely enough to push her towards seeking help. It highlights how external events can trigger deep-seated emotional responses from past traumas—an important reminder that our journeys are ongoing rather than neatly concluded chapters.
Her husband played a pivotal role in advocating for therapy—a step which led Susan to eventually connect with a therapist specializing in severe trauma. This partnership became foundational in validating her experience and providing hope during what seemed like insurmountable times.
Breathing Life into Healing
One practical tool that emerged from therapy was box breathing—a technique that helped regulate Susan’s nervous system during anxiety spikes. She emphasizes allowing oneself to feel anxious moments instead of resisting them; employing controlled breathing as both an anchor and compass through tumultuous emotions serves as practical advice for anyone grappling with anxiety or stress-related disorders.
Box breathing represents more than just breath control—it signifies taking command over one’s internal state amidst external chaos.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Welcome to another episode of Greeting Voices. If this is your first time listening, thank you for being here. And if you’ve listened before, thank you for coming back. Today, my guest is Susan Snow, she is an author, international speaker, and resiliency coach. Her message of hope and healing through trauma and loss comes from her vulnerability, which allows others a safe space to tell their own story of trauma and loss. And thank you so much for your time and being here today and sharing your story.
Susan Snow: Thanks for having me.
Victoria Volk: And your book title is very to the point Can you share that story, please? But also, I have a quest a follow-up question to the book title.
Susan Snow: So Sure. Absolutely. Well, the book came out and that title was specific because I am the daughter of a Los Angeles police detective who was ambushed while picking up my then six year old brother on Halloween of nineteen eighty five. And my mom and I were called to the school and witnessed his body in the aftermath. So the other side of the gun It was my side. It was my side of what gun violence, you know, takes away from you. Without getting political, you know, it was more on the mental health side.
Victoria Volk: And when you when this happened, you were seventeen on the gas of adulthood. And you’re old enough to recognize that what happened. Right? And process what happened to some to some degree?
Susan Snow: I really struggled. You know, this was the eighties. It was mid eighties. There was no talk of mental health back then. And there definitely was very little known about PTSD. What I witnessed was horrific. And I didn’t know how to process. And unfortunately, that night was so chaotic. There was just so much going on. And when we showed up, there was so much going on, but we still didn’t know until we actually saw this scene. All I saw were officers coming towards me with tears in their eyes. And I didn’t know what that meant. I mean, even when I’m the one that received the call at home, I was getting ready to go a Halloween party or hoping to go to a Halloween party, and it was a week night. So my dad had already said, nope. Not doing it. But I was bound to determine being seventeen, and I got that call from a woman from my brother’s school. And all she said was there was a drive by shooting, and my dad was involved. So even at that point, I didn’t know what to expect when we arrived at the school. And even that night, after I witnessed what I witnessed to the officers, you know, my mom was screaming and Iwas focused on an ambulance that was did still in the street, and I couldn’t understand why they weren’t helping my dad. I just it was not processing at all. That what I was seeing was that he was gone. It was it was a a very surreal kind of feeling like an auto body experience kind of And then when we got into the school, we went into a office. And I sat down and my mom was kind of ushered out of the room. I believe was some detectives. I didn’t know where my brother was.
I didn’t know if he was hurt. If he was at the hospital, like, I knew nothing. And as I was sitting there, there were two ladies that were talking. And the one said to the other, yes, unfortunately, mister Williams is deceased, and that’s when it hit me and my world cracked. And I just wanted to run out of there. You know? I talked to a lot of people who have had loss. And this seems to be kind of a feeling of I just wanna run away from this nightmare, especially when it’s something that happens. And occurs quickly, but you just wanna run. And I wanted to run and run and run and run and not stop. But my legs were like cement. I couldn’t move. Physically, could not move. And my mom came back into the room and she said, I’m sending you with a neighbor. And even though I wanted To leave, I wanted to run, the seventeen year old girl needed my family. I needed to be in a space where I felt like I wasn’t alone. And instead, I got sent to the neighbor, and I don’t blame her. I mean, there was a lot of chaos, like I said, going on. And people handle things differently in chaos. But that night really impacted me because I felt like I was not important in this family unit situation and all the focus and so be it was on my brother because my dad’s last thing that he did on earth was to save his life and tell him to duck down in the truck because he knew what was coming. So, you know, for me, I was having to go to this neighbor and this poor neighbor had known my parents forever. So she was trying to wrap her head around what was happening. And my environment changed because my quiet street now was covered in media vans and police cars, and we had helicopters we could hear over the house. And it was crazy, you know. So I didn’t get to grief. By my like, I had no privacy on the grieving process at all. Like, There was always people around. People I didn’t know. And you know, I had my boyfriend at the time who I’m now married to. And he was nineteen. So we were both children, you know, and we’re trying to figure these things out. Like, how do you navigate this? So Yeah. It was it was a huge pivotal pivotal time in my life. And Yeah.
I
Victoria Volk: did I wanna backpedal to my statement about that you can process it to some degree. And what I meant was when I said that because I’m a child of loss. My father died when I was a kid and
Susan Snow: You get that. Do that.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So I get that. And when people say, oh, children are resilient, they’ll bounce back. Like, that drives me crazy.
Susan Snow: Me too.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So what I meant when I said that and I should have said it differently was as opposed to like a younger child. Right?
Susan Snow: Oh, yeah.
Victoria Volk: You have a greater understanding
Susan Snow: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Of the weight
Susan Snow: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Of what’s happening. Yeah. Right? I still really under like, a child mean, like, I understood when my dad was dying of cancer. Like, Iand when he died, I knew he died.
Like, Iunderstood that. Like, he was gone forever. Right? But to understand, like, the impact that that was gonna have, the rest of my life, that I couldn’t even run my head around. Right?
Susan Snow: Right.
Victoria Volk: But as a seventeen year old and you know you’re going into adulthood and you you have an understanding of this is changing everything for me. Right? And that’s that’s the weight of the trauma and what you witnessed and all of that. Did your brother survive?
Susan Snow: He did. He survived. I didn’t see him until the next day. What I was told was that he was in he was questioned by police immediately. So he was still at the school when I got sent away. But I didn’t get to see him. I could hear him crying. In his room, but there was nothing left of me. To be able to go and console him. And I just assumed my mom would be there and do it. And he would be surrounded with people because he was so little. So I really didn’t see my brother until the next day and I was able to hug him. And, you know, just let him know that I was there for him and I love him and you know, dad loved him and, you know, so but it was it was a hard time. It was, you know, I My relationship with my mom was not a hundred percent when this happened. We had a strained relationship for many years.
And I didn’t realize that until I started to write my book. You know? So when all this happened, my dad was always like the go between the mediator. The voice of reason, and now he’s gone. And so not only was I processing the fact that my dad was gone, but then I was processing the fact that how was I going to manage that relationship with my mom?
So it was just a lot. It was a lot for me and, you know, I was living, as you well know, with grief, you live in a fog. I was living in a fog. I couldn’t sleep. I was total sleep deprivation.
And I ambeknownst to me, I had suicidal ideation. I wanted to be with my dad and I didn’t know how that would happen. But I longed to be with my dad. And I had days where I just couldn’t get out of bed, so the depression hit me. My sense of security was gone because they didn’t catch the men. So the men who were involved in this in my dad’s murder. My dad was a detective. So he had testified that day in one of his criminal court cases, and the guy who was the defendant was out on bail. And it gave him an opportunity. But it didn’t it took them six days to find them. So for six days, we had police presence all over our house, front yard, backyard, everything. I had bodyguards. So anywhere I went, I had bodyguards. And it was just crazy, like a whole different world. I had a pretty normal teenage life before all of this. And that was gone. And I had to grow up very, very quickly. So it was just it was a lot to process a lot. And I didn’t have the tools, you know. Ijust I didn’t have the tools at the time to manage my anxiety.
So I always felt like I was I even though I wanted to be with my dad, I was always, like, I felt like, you know, I’m having a heart attack because the panic attacks and and the feelings of it. And I would have to just try to squash him most of the time Iwould just talk myself out of it. But now I know not to do that because it just extends the attack. But it went on for a while. And I you know, and my mom now that I realized my mom has a narcissistic personality, And so her focus was totally her. And you know, we all process trauma and grief differently. And she chose to drink. And so that felt alienating to me as well. But that was her coping skill, and I’m not, you know, like I said, everybody deals with trauma and loss differently.
Victoria Volk: That’s another level of grief. Right? And then your younger brother is growing up in that environment too.
Susan Snow: Mhmm. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it’s a it did take them about a month. I was at the point where if you pointed me in a direction, that’s the direction I would go. You know, Ihad no advocacy for myself. Ididn’t know how to verbalize. Ididn’t even tell anybody what was going on in my head, and I didn’t know how. I had guilt and shame and felt like if I put more on someone else, it was too much, so I just kinda just dealt with it. You know? And My mom came to me about a month after my dad was killed, and he she said that the Los Angeles police department the advocate said that they wanted to put us in therapy. And I didn’t know anything about therapy. In fact, in the 80s, I thought if you went to a therapist, You were crazy. But being, you know, subservient, I was like, Okay. Because that’s that’s the direction that you’re gonna push me. That’s the direction I’ll go. And I met with this therapist. I had this feeling like, oh my gosh, this is gonna be the adult. This is gonna be the one that’s gonna help me, that’s gonna make me feel better. Right? But unfortunately, I think that the trauma that I experienced was too much for him, he wasn’t, what I call, trauma competent. And he didn’t wanna ask the questions, and he didn’t. For an entire year, Ali talked about every single session was my relationship with my mother, my relationship with my brother, my boyfriend in school. And that was it.
Victoria Volk: And in the room.
Susan Snow: Nothing. And people like when I tell people that they go, What? And I said, yeah, because I think, honestly, he was afraid to ask the questions. Right? Because, you know, maybe he didn’t have the answers or he didn’t know what to do.
So
Victoria Volk: So have you ever even asked you, are you having thoughts of harming yourself or others? Not at once.
Susan Snow: Not once. And every session I’d be like before the session, I was like, today’s the day. Today’s the day. He’s gonna figure it out because Iwas a mess. Like, I was a mess, but I just didn’t know how to verbalize. Most seventeen year olds back then didn’t know how to verbalize our feelings. And most of the time, you know, at Gen X, we were we were told to, you know,
Victoria Volk: suck it up buttercup.
Susan Snow: Buck it up buttercup. Yeah. Exactly. It wasn’t it wasn’t an open conversation. So an entire year went by, and the last day that I saw him, he looked at me and said, Susan, you’re a well rounded young lady, and you’re gonna be fine for the rest of your life, and I don’t need to see you anymore. So that was that. And I walked out of that last session thinking, okay, I am so I’ve cracked I’ve cracked. I’m I’m crazy. I I’m just gonna have to live with this pain for the rest of my life. Even a professional can’t help me, and that was my mindset.
You know, I lived in fight or flight from then on? It was just that’s how it was. And, you know, and and and my my boyfriend, he didn’t He didn’t know what to do either. So I just I struggled a lot. And then on top of that, you know, as the years went on, you know, the the time with my mom and living with my mom became very unbearable. I couldn’t do it anymore because I watched her spiraling and couldn’t do anything about it. And I had this feeling of, like, I’m the oldest, and this is my responsibility. And I just had to, like I think even back then, I knew a little bit about boundaries without knowing about boundaries. And I just drew a line in the sand and said, that’s it. At eighteen, I’m moving out. I can’t do this. And I did it. I moved out.
Victoria Volk: What did your early twenties your life look like after that into your early twenties?
Susan Snow: I you know, I had some peace being out on my own even though my mom told the local police department, so they were constantly driving by my apartment. Which, you know, you just can’t get away from it. But I married my boyfriend when I was twenty one. And in hindsight, you know, both of us agree that we were too young to get married. But because we had been together for so many years and we’d lived with each other for a little bit, that that was the next step. But even you know, all these years, like, I was living in fight or flight. So is he? He may not have witnessed what I saw that night, but from the moment I told him that night when he came because the the neighbor called him and told him to come to her house. The minute I told him, that was trauma. He’d only known my dad for three months. We’d only been dating three months. Three months and this nineteen year old guy, most guys would have been like, bye bye. This is too much. Too much. But he stuck it out. And I think he stuck it out because he knew my mom was going to do what she did, which is kind of turtle within herself. And I needed a friend. I needed some sort of support. And I’m grateful for that. You know, but it was, you know, it was it’s our journey too, you know, and it’s I don’t think I would be here if my husband wasn’t. In my life, especially at that point. You know? So but, you know, we’ve we’ve been together almost thirty nine years now, and it’s just nuts to me. I mean, we’ve had our we we it’s it’s if you read it in the book. If you read it in the book, there was a divorce in the middle, but we are together. And married in for the second time. But yeah. I mean, it it’s just you know, grief is is a crazy thing because it you know, it it comes and it goes. And the nice thing about having my husband is that he now knows my triggers. I hate that word, but he knows he knows and he knows when that’s gonna send me into the grief. You know, so it’s helpful. I have the tools now, but he he does too. Through watching me through the years. And that’s really important.
Victoria Volk: When I think you raise a good point in that the ripples of grief, it’s the impact it has on you, but also I mean, the people around you, when you don’t have the tools, right, and you can combust at any moment or, you know, explode into a fit of rage or anger. The people around you feel like they’re living and walking on egg shells.
Susan Snow: Yep.
Victoria Volk: That’s the ripples of getting And so when people think, oh, it’s not affecting me. I’m dealing with it. I’m just sweeping it under the rug. I’m not gonna talk about it. If you are getting angry about someone not replacing the toilet paper roll or, you know, refilling the salt shaker, whatever it is. Right? Like these silly things that can make us angry when we are just like you said, walking in a fog. Well, and yet it’s like these a thousand paper cuts. Right?
Susan Snow: Exactly. Well, I will tell you I got really good, and I talk about this all the time. Igot really good with wearing my emotional mask. And what that is is, you know, when I was young, after it happened, people would say things like you’re strong. You’re brave.
You’re gonna be fine. And that’s what I wore. So anytime anything came up, I was like, put on the mask, I’m fine. I’m strong. I’m this. Right? But underneath, I was a mess. But what I put out outwardly was something that was different. And so that’s why I call it the mass. Because nobody can see what all the turmoil is inside. My husband had a way of knowing when that mask was coming on, and that was the difference. But it took me many, many years to get rid of that mask. Many, many years. And you know, fourteen to be exact. We we were married. We got we had two children. We had two children. We decided we were gonna leave Southern California. I always lived with this safety issue. Because it was my dad’s death was a planning of his death for months. Before he died, before they killed him. I always looked behind my shoulder all the time. Nighttime was extremely stressful for me because my dad was killed at night at the night at the, you know, like, five forty And when we got an opportunity to move to Denver, Colorado, that’s we jumped on it. And we moved in ninety seven and then I was working as a hairdresser at the time. And I was working at a salon that was close to Littleton, Colorado. And I on April twentieth of nineteen ninety nine, I was working and I took a break, I went into the backroom and turned on the TV, and all the coverage of the Columbine high school shootings. Were happening. And as I sat and I watched it, obviously, my colleagues were having a reaction to it. Shock you know, sadness, all that. But for me, I saw the school. I saw the kids that were my own age. I saw the ambulances. The police cars and I started to have flashbacks. I turned pale white. What is a ghost? Started getting clammy. I could feel my fingers tingling. I knew it was happening. I was having a panic attack. And I did not tell my colleagues my story so they had no idea why I was having this visceral reaction, and I didn’t either. Because I was told I was gonna be fine for the rest of my life, and that stuck with me. So as this was all going on, I tried to calm myself down and then I did what I always did and I put that emotional mask gone. And I went out and I did my clients and everybody was obviously very upset. But I went about my day like it didn’t affect me. The minute I walked through those doors, though, to drive home.
All of those emotions came flooding back. And I was I spiraled. I was terrified now because now I’m a mom of two small kids. And I wanted to leave this planet. Part of me did. The other part of me was terrified to leave my children. And this happened for two days. And when I got home one day, my husband met me at door and he said, you have two choices because he knew it was a slippery slope. He knew it. He said either you get help today or I’m putting you in a hospital. And I threw up the white flag and I said, okay, I’ll I’ll go to the doctor. And I went to the doctor, and a regular physician, and he immediately put me on antidepressants because that’s what they do.
Victoria Volk: Of course, they do. They’re not trained psychologists or therapists.
Susan Snow: No. And then he handed me a card. And he said, I want you to make an appointment for this therapist. And I literally laughed at him in his face. And I said, I did this fourteen years ago. And it didn’t help me then? What makes you think this is gonna help me now? And he looked me and he said, you have no choice. You have no choice. So I said, okay, fine. And I made the appointment, and I’m so grateful I did because this therapist specialized in severe trauma, and she knew all about PTSD. So in five minutes, of having a conversation with her. She looked at me and she said and I described everything I went through at seventeen and everything that I was currently dealing with. And she said, Susan, she said everything you’ve gone through since you were seventeen years old. Is a hundred percent normal because you have PTSD. And I kind of like sat back in my chair because I was confused. I went, wait a minute. I’m not in the military. I didn’t go to war. And she said, well, She said anyone who has gone through trauma can experience PTSD. But what you what you need to know is that PTSD isn’t something that goes away. It’s something you learn to manage. And those words were like, Oh my goodness. I always describe it as the sky opening up and rainbow shot shooting out of him because I felt like I wasn’t crazy, and I had hope, and I had it. An adult that was gonna guide me in this journey and help me heal. And I just I felt so grateful in that moment. But she had her work cut out for her. Definitely.
Victoria Volk: Thank you for sharing that. And I think one thing that came to my mind as I was hearing you talk about your experience with the PTSD and stuff is and let me ask you this from what you’ve learned about PTSD. Is it kind of like the pendulum can swing where you’re maybe it’s like all the cells in your body are just like all at once, like like you’re it’s almost like you’re how do I wanna explain this? Like, your energy is really amped up or the pendulum can swing the other way where you’re completely detached. Yes.
So Pete, I just want to
Susan Snow: Answer is yes.
Victoria Volk: I just want to clarify for people listening who are unfamiliar with the symptoms of PTSD. It doesn’t just look like your experience.
Susan Snow: Oh, yeah. And everybody like PTSD is not a one size fits all. Right? So everybody has different reactions for different things. So for me, for example, anytime there was like a shooting of some sort, It would take me right back to that day and all the feelings I had. So the anxiety, I would be extremely anxious and then extremely sad. Right? Some people just get very anxious or on edge. Some people just go into a deep depression. Some people become suicidal. There’s just a a very variance of things that happen to you. And so for myself, when I say she had her work cut out for me, is she decided that it was going to be beneficial to start out small. And not overwhelm me. So the one thing that I was struggling with at that very moment is sleep. And if you don’t have sleep and you have PTSD, It just exacerbates everything. So she really wanted me to get rest. But I told her nighttime was the worst because and I’m sure there’s people out there that are, like, Yep. When you start to rest, your brain just turns on. My brain would turn on, it would go straight to the darkness. So I would be terrified to shut my eyes. Because I thought I was going to be enveloped in the darkness and would not be able to come out of it. So she said, okay, here’s what we’re going to do. You’re going to journal at night. And I kinda looked at her funny because I’m like, that sounds a little dumb. Like, Really simple too. Right? Right. Yeah. Like, really, this is gonna make a big difference for me. And she’s like, you know what?
Just give it a week. I’m gonna give you a couple of prompts to write. If you wanna write, you can do it through music. You can do it through art. I don’t care how you do it, but just get all that stuff out of your head before you go to sleep. And I said, okay. So for a week, I had a little a little tablet next to my bed. And I would write down all the stuff that was swirling around in there on the paper. And at first, I was like, oh, but my spelling was wrong, and my You were judging it. Yeah. And, you know, when I called her, she’s like, Susan. This isn’t a lesson of like English. You just have to write. Right? Just like write it. It doesn’t matter. If it’s spelled right, it doesn’t even it doesn’t matter. Just get it on a paper. I said, okay. Fine.
So for an entire week, I did that. And And the crazy thing that happened is I fell asleep. I started to sleep. Because I was no longer anxious, I was no longer in that, you know, darkness when I slept. And I thought, oh, this stuff works.
Victoria Volk: And typing it I’ll say this too. I’ll just add this for people listening. Handwriting is the key.
Susan Snow: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Not typing on a laptop or anything like that. Yeah. Right? That’s what connects the brain to your heart.
Susan Snow: Absolutely. Yep. And yeah. So I physically wrote it. I physically wrote it.
But like I said, you know, some people people can do art. They can draw pictures. They can pick up a guitar and start writing a you know, like, just singing it out, like, whatever you have to do to get it out. And like I said, there’s no one’s size fits all. And so that was the first thing that she started me on.
And as we started attacking every single symptom, My next symptom that I dealt with was anxiety, and I had dealt with this forever And, you know, and I told her, I said, it’s exhausting, physically exhausting to my body. To continue to have a panic attack after panic attack after panic attack. So she started to teach me breath work. And breathing techniques. And the first the very first breathing technique that I learned was called box breathing. And I still do it to today. You know, I actually teach it. So, you know, it was changing my nervous system and it was changing my state, you know, state the state of my my being. And so I started to learn as I felt the triggers of anxiety, I would know. Okay.First, I gotta let it happen. I can’t fight it. Because when you fight it, it doesn’t go away or it’ll stop and then it’ll start and then it’ll stop and it’ll start. So I’ve got to just tell myself, I’m okay. You know, this is gonna be alright. I’m gonna live through this. And then so that I don’t go into another one then start the box breathing and really change the state of mind. And so she just each thing, she just kept attacking each thing that I was dealing with. And it was unbelievable. But here’s the really important thing that is over and above all it is the most important thing in the lesson that I learned. Was I had to be able to one trust her because I had to be the most vulnerable that I could be in order to do this work. And if I didn’t feel that, I wouldn’t have healed in the way that I did. And that’s really important for people to understand is that if you go to a therapist, when They need to be trauma competent. They need to understand your type of trauma and know how to help you heal through it. But you have to have that feeling of safety, of you can be a hundred percent vulnerable and go there with those people. And know that they are going to respect you, that they are going to guide you in a way that you need to be guided. So because I hear a lot, people say, oh, therapy didn’t work for me. Well, it’s because you didn’t find the right therapist. Because when you do and the work is done, that’s that’s when you see the real healing.
Victoria Volk: Well, in the distinction too, and look at the contrast of the first therapist versus the second therapist. The second therapist was giving you like homework. Right? Yep. You had action to take. Yep. That’s the difference. That’s why support groups, if you’re not taking action, they don’t work. Yeah, it make you feel better for a short period of time, but it’s not long lasting. It’s not moving you forward in a positive way in your life. Like therapy, like talk therapy, continually talking about the same things as you shared, it makes you feel better for the short period of time. Right? But then the next time you’re talking about the same things again. Right? But I think the difference is this action. Taking action.
Susan Snow: Yeah. Actually, yeah. Because she would give me something to do And then ask me, like, how did that affect you? What it you know, how did you feel after that? You know?
Did you feel relief? Did you not? Like, do we need to tweak something? You know? And it was and that’s why I tell people it’s not a one size fits all. What happened for me and what I used worked for me. It may not work for you. There’s so many modalities out there right now. You know, and you just have to find what works for you. And don’t be a soul
Victoria Volk: resonates with you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Snow: Yep. Absolutely. So and I tell people, like, you will know in the first five minutes of meeting someone. Especially a therapist if you feel comfortable. If you don’t, find another one.
You know? This your healing, and your journey is your journey. It’s not theirs. And so it’s important for you to be your own advocate. And if you feel like you’re not getting the right help or you’re frustrated because you’re not going in the right direction, then find another therapist. It’s okay. Everybody has to find their right fit.
Victoria Volk: I’m a certified grief specialist and what I learned in my training is that and me personally my story is that and maybe you resonate with this. Is that trauma Trauma happens, but grief is what’s left.
Susan Snow: Yep.
Victoria Volk: The grief that’s left.
Susan Snow: Yep. And you’re grieving a lot of different things. Like a lot of different things. I mean, for me, I was not just grieving my dad. I was grieving my life. I was grieving my relationship. I was grieving my childhood. I was grieving not having a mom in the way that I need it, you know, the support system. I was grieving watching my both of my, you know, my mom and my brother took a different road than I did. Now my brother is doing amazing now. But when he was younger, he took, you know, a rough road, and I was grieving that. You know, I was grieving not being able to be the sister that he needed because I had to put boundaries down. You know, and so there was just the grief evolves actually, you know, as time goes on, you’re grieving for different things. And so things will come up, you know. And I, at this point, I have no contact with my mother. And it’s okay. Because what I realized was that that relationship was very toxic. And I spent a lot of time in shame and guilt because I was healing and she was not. And I felt like as the oldest and as the daughter that it was my responsibility, to help her heal. But what I had to realize and my book actually helped me realize is that It’s not my responsibility. Everybody is their own individual person. And so even though she’s my mother, it’s still her own responsibility for her own life. And the choices that she makes. So when I wrote the book, I figured, you know, I was doing this to heal myself, but also in the process of it because I had so much fear. It was terrifying to be this raw and this vulnerable with strangers. I’m putting it out there, but I had fear of safety, repercussions, you know, because I’m putting myself out there. Are these men gonna find me kind of thing? I had fear about, you know, is this going to somehow blow up my marriage again because I talk about some very serious things that we went through. In the book because it was traumatic. And the relationship with my mom Is it going to open a conversation, or is it going to completely destroy whatever is left of the relationship? And it did the latter. But in all of that fear, I had to find a purpose Why was I writing this book? Who was it going to benefit? And that’s who I put in front of me. The faces of the people that need to hear my message to know that they’re not alone and that other people go through things and they find resiliency through it. Brief doesn’t go away. It comes back in weird ways. But when you have the tools to move through it, and you know the people to look forward to help you support you, it makes a huge difference. And so that was what I did is I just focused on the people that were out there in the world. That needed to hear, hope. And I, you know and so with it having this effect on my relationship with my mom, I actually feel at peace and I feel okay. And sometimes that is the best thing. And I tell people, you know, if you’re in my situation, if you’re in that situation, sometimes best thing for you is to find your peace and protect it.
Victoria Volk: Well, and make peace with the choice that you made. Right? It’s making peace with the choice that you made.
Susan Snow: Yep. Chaz two. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: This relationship and I’m going to make peace with that.
Susan Snow: Yeah. And actually, she’s the one that severed it.
Victoria Volk: Oh. Is that Is the last with your mother, is that the other loss that you were describing on your website?
Susan Snow: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s It’s hard because that night, I felt, and even my brother says the same thing, that we lost both parents. Because we lost our dad, but my mom lost her identity. And she She just turdled. She just she to this day, if you meet her, she’ll tell you in the first five minutes who she is. That she’s the widow of my father because that’s her end all be all. Right? That’s that’s her identity. And that’s fine, and that’s the choice that she makes. But I feel like watching that both of us watching that all these years has been hard because it’s like we always wanted my mom to be happy. We always wanted my mom to have this beautiful life, finding love again, finding happiness again, and and we watched her. Exactly. And, I mean, she has no relationship with my kids.
Victoria Volk: And that’s another layer of grief.
Susan Snow: Mhmm. So that’s, you know and what let’s and I say, like grief comes up in different ways throughout your life. And so now I literally, last year, realized that my mom was a narcissist and that, you know, narcissistic abuse is very difficult. To heal from, but it’s something that I’m doing right now. And I’m the helping my brother as well just have he still has a relationship with her, but I’m trying to help my brother to be because he always wants to fight her over me. And I’m like, no. You protect your peace. I’m protecting my peace. So, you know, it it it took me I’m fifty five. It took me fifty four years to figure this out and writing my own book and reading my own book and seeing the patterns throughout my life where my mom had opportunities to step up and be a mom and give me the support that I needed. And it didn’t happen. And so instead of living my life like having this fantasy, that one day my mom is gonna wake up and be some hallmark holiday mom, I had to let go of that and that is another grief. Of letting go of that fantasy. So yeah. I mean, brief is not something that you you heal from it at one point and then it goes away. Because there’s always gonna be things throughout your life. That you’re gonna grieve over always. It’s just a matter of how you wanna do it. So I choose to learn from my experiences. And in learning, I find the resiliency.
Victoria Volk: And even if that takes thirty plus years, Absolutely. Did you and me?
Susan Snow: Absolutely. It’s not too late. There is no timeline. There literally is no timeline. I think the the craziest thing that drives me bananas and it probably does you too being grief counselors. When people say, oh, it’s been x amount of time, get over it, or you should just move on Right? Why is it still bothering you? Mhmm. Well, because you didn’t have the relationship with that person that I did, That’s just like when someone loses some when someone dies, I never say I know how you feel. Ever because I don’t. I didn’t have the same relationship with that person. As the one that’s grieving. So Same. Even your brother. Even my brother relationship. I tell my brother that all the time. I don’t know what it felt like for you. You had a whole different experience than I did. And I would not pretend to know what that feels like. I just know how it felt fermi. You know, and and the experiences I went through, which is what I wrote in the book. These were my experiences. And, you know, and and, you know, everybody just everybody goes the other The other thing is is, oh, your trauma is worse than mine. Really? No, it’s not. I mean, the the story, the, you know, the actual situation, yeah, not everybody goes through that. I get that. But everybody’s trauma is different. Does it mean that it’s not important?
Victoria Volk: There’s no hierarchy?
Susan Snow: Or there’s no hierarchy exactly. There’s no you know, well, my dad was murdered and you’re, you know, you’re just dealing with whatever, you know. No. Well, and
Victoria Volk: what people are doing when they do that is they’re minimizing their own gap briefing trauma.
Susan Snow: Absolutely. And it’s crazy because I’ve had conversations with people that here’s the other side of that is that I’ve had conversations with people who have gone through trauma, but because it was an everyday event or an environment that they lived in constantly, they felt like everybody, you know, everybody’s family was like that. And so it wasn’t it wasn’t traumatic what they went through. It wasn’t abuse that they went through. And when I bring it to light, I had a woman who I was driving for Lyft for a little while last year because I’m a real estate agent now and real estate was a little funky last year, so first time in fourteen years, I had to have a side gig. So I went out and was driving, and I had my book in my car her one of my riders who was, like, why isn’t your book in your car? So I had a yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I had my book in my car and I picked up this woman and she pulled out my book and started to kind of read it. And she says, oh my gosh, you went through so much trauma and this and that. And I’ve never had trauma in my life, but she was going into rehab the next day. And I said, really? And so we started talking about her sobriety. And I said, well, what? You know, first of all, we talked about the fact that this was her third time in rehab. And that she had three kids, and that this time she wanted to do it for herself, the other time she did it for her kids, but failed. And in talking more with her, she said, well, I haven’t had trauma like you have had trauma. And then you said, well, you know, everybody’s life is different and maybe you did and you don’t recognize it. She said, well, you know, when I was I lived with my mom, my mom raised me and my brother, and my mom was abusive you know, she yelled and screamed at me and whatever, but she said she had these boy this one boyfriend and, you know, he he would touch me from the age of three to seven. And I was like, touch you, and then she started to elaborate. And this woman was sexually assaulted and molested. From the age of three to the age of seven, she was made to have relations with her brother, and this was ongoing. And so for her, it was normal Like, this this was how you showed love. This is, you know, but then the mom would be jealous when the boyfriend would give more attention. To the child. Right? And I almost crashed my car at this point because I was like, you don’t think this is trauma? I said, here’s what I’m gonna tell you. What happened to you wasn’t your fault? That was his fault. That was her mother’s fault. You had adults that did not protect you. As a child, did not protect your brother as a child, you one hundred percent went through trauma. And I said, and I don’t know how or why, but stuff flies out of my mouth and I go, where did that come from?
But what I said, was this. I said, if you really want to get sober, that is what you need to attack. Because what you went through was severe trauma. And I said, you have been To rehab, three times. Have you ever in those three times told any of your counselors? This story. And she said no. And I said, this is why it’s your fourth. So here’s what I’m gonna tell you. When you go to rehab tomorrow, and by this time she’s, like, in tears, like, in tears.
She’s sobbing. And I said, listen to me carefully. When you go to therapy or when you go to rehab tomorrow, Please tell your story. Tell your story. Because when you do they’re gonna get you the right people. They’re gonna align you with the right people. Because if you don’t attack this, now S sobriety is gonna be so much harder. And she was just like, oh my god. I can’t believe I’m this lift and this is what I was yeah. But it just it it opened my eyes. It really gave me an aha that there are people that are walking around on this earth. Who have had experiences that it was so common that they don’t even realize that it was traumatic. And
Victoria Volk: Or no one ever even asks, what are you trying to cope from? Right? Like, what happened to you? Right?
Susan Snow: That’s a very simple question. Even physicians and doctors offices don’t ask that. What happened to you? Right? And, you know, and and it again, it shocked me that she said she wants to rehab three dives and she said all they did was talk about the sobriety.
Staying sober not feeling guilty for, you know, whatever. I get all that, but unless you really attack the true whether it’s abuse or whatever it was, it’s harder to get sobriety because Down deep, that is what you’re hiding from. Mhmm. I watched my mother do it. For years.
That’s what she was she was hiding from was the reality, you know? And hurt people, hurt people, whether it’s themselves or the people around them. So I told her, I said, look, with me healing for myself, the ripple effect is it’s helped my kids. It’s helped my husband. It’s helped my brother. Right? The people that are open, but you have to work on you first. You know, you have to be the priority.
Victoria Volk: And Remember your follow-up?
Susan Snow: I didn’t. And it kills me because I would really love. I center with my book. I said, read my book while you’re in rehab. Maybe it’ll give you some hope and maybe some some kind of healing. She didn’t wanna get out of my car, but you know, I’ve met many people like that, and I feel like I’m living in my purpose. You probably feel the same way, being a grief counselor. Iknow I’ve made a difference in people’s lives. I’ve seen it from other riders that I have gotten a follow-up with. But with her, you know, she is always on my mind. Maybe one day, you know, we’ll run into each other again. But I really hope that she’s able to heal all the terrible things that happened to her. And how it’s affected her mindset all these years, not believing in herself and not, you know, feeling like that’s the only way that you can show love with a man in making the making wrong choices with men. That kind of thing. But, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s important to make yourself the priority.
Victoria Volk: So what has your grief taught you?
Susan Snow: Oh my goodness. My grief taught me to learn from what I’m grieving about. There are lessons in grief if you pay attention. So when I feel like I’m grieving something, Ilook at it a little bit differently and say, why am I feeling this way? What is it that triggered me to feel this way? And what can I learn from it? Because the other side of grief too is that It’s the universe trying to teach you something. You you gained something out of it.
Victoria Volk: That’s a really hard thing to hear. You know, at first. I know
Susan Snow: it is. It
Victoria Volk: is. Listening to that or, like, oh, I didn’t ask for this lesson. Right?
Susan Snow: Right. But again So
Victoria Volk: it’s a
Susan Snow: It’s all timing. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Well, and and it it’s all part of our own evolution.
Susan Snow: Absolutely. And it’s it it is. It’s all in timing. It’s it’s, you know, what is that that saying, you know, when the when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Victoria Volk: Mhmm.
Susan Snow: Yeah. I mean, that is a hundred percent real. And, yeah, in the beginning, it is it is hard. It it is. And I think in the beginning of grief, like, the best thing you can do is take care of yourself, just the littlest things. Just making sure that you’re that you’re remembering to to give yourself love in your in your self support. And that’s, you know, that’s something I had to learn to do really early on, is I had to figure out, okay, how do I love myself? Since I didn’t have adults around me that were giving me the support I needed at the time. So I had to learn to do the things. And as a kid, you know, what is that? Oh, well, that’s getting my nails done. You know, feeling pretty, getting my hair done, you know, spending time with my friends just like sometimes it was forcing myself to spend time with my friends because all I wanted to do is sit in my room. As a kid, you don’t know what you’re you don’t know what you’re doing anyway. So I was just like, I’m just going to envelope myself with friends and my boyfriend and, you know, the things that I know that even though they walked on egg shells around me, they still I could find a little bit of joy in spending time. With them. But, you know, as an adult, when I tell people and they’re going through grief is, I know it’s hard sometimes, but find something that makes you feel better even if it’s for five minutes. Whether that’s just a good cup of coffee, or a tea or just sitting outside and feeling the breeze on your face and the sunshine. You know, taking a bath, listening to your favorite music, just something. That gives you a little bit of comfort.
Victoria Volk: Very good. Very
Susan Snow: good. Yeah. Scream into your pillow. Cry your eyes out. And I think people get really scared. Like, oh my god. If I cry, I’m gonna cry for days. Like, I’m never gonna stop crying. I’m I’m just it’s just not gonna happen. You know? And so I know women who are like, I allow myself to have ten minute cry and then that’s it. I’m like, really? I think you should just go for it. Just just let it all out. And it’s okay. Actually, it’s a positive. It’s not a negative. But, you know, I still think that there’s that little, like, that little myth in the back where people think if I cry. I’m weak I’m showing weakness, and it’s the total opposite. It is so the opposite.
Victoria Volk: Well, you can get outward attention from your anger, or you can get outward attention from your tears. And which would you for it to be.
Susan Snow: Exactly. Would you like to go to jail or because I’ve had those days too where I was like, Oh, man. I, you know, I have to rain it in a little bit, find other ways.
Victoria Volk: And speaking of that, as a mother, dealing with all of this. Like, your children, how old were well, I have two questions. What’s sparked the idea for the book? Was it the therapy? That kind of helped you get to that point? And then also, like, just, you know, the mother you were before you started to do this work in the mother that they have now?
Susan Snow: Well, the book, when I turned fifty, I was mentally at a place where I knew that telling my story when things came up I would have the tools to help me get through it. So that’s why the book came around because I was like, oh god, I’m fifty. I gotta get this done. And I honestly feel like it was my dad kicking me in the rear end. Because he knows what my work is. You know? And my purpose isn’t is through him. And I had this like I drew a line in the sand that was like, that’s it. I’m fifty years old. I’m getting this book done. It took me four and a half years to write it. And it’s because I did. I had to dive and relive and, you know, I had repressed memories come up. All kinds of things happened. It was a journey in itself.
As I was writing the book, I feel like as my kids have gotten bigger, and now they’re adults. I won’t tell you how old they are because it makes me feel old. But they’re all adults, and I have three now. And you know, I think they see the resiliency. They see that I’ve had these days where I’ve been so sad. They’ve seen my sadness. I never hid it from them. I never, you know, think the only time I hit any of my emotions is when my husband and I were divorcing. And there was a you know, there was just a lot. And I was really trying to be the supportive parent through that. And I felt like they needed they needed to see a strong mom. They needed to see a supportive mom. And so my closet saw all my tears and heard all the bad words. You name it. Right? And but, you know, my husband as as well was very No. Very loving or, you know, tried to be as loving as possible through everything with them. He was going through his own stuff, his own mental stuff. But as they’ve seen me progress and they’ve seen me heal, My kids struggle with their own mental health things, and they have a mom that can help them through their own struggle. They have a mom that was a big proponent of them getting therapy. And finding the right therapist. So I was able to utilize my own experiences even with my own kids. And making sure that they were going to be okay, no matter what. So you know, I think that was the biggest thing. I wanted to leave a legacy for my kids of you can go through horrific things in your life. And you can choose to be a victim or you can choose to rise up and be a survivor. And my hope is that I’m teaching my kids to be survivors.
Victoria Volk: You had mentioned that you gave your clause at all your tears and you wanted to be the strong mom. And I imagine that comes from your own personal experience of with your own mom. Right?
Susan Snow: Yep.
Victoria Volk: One thing I wanna highlight for listeners is that I think there’s a distinction that needs to be made. There’s a difference between being strong, but also allowing yourself to grieve with your children and showing them how to grieve. Mhmm. Because again, that goes back to what you shared, like you learned to, like, put your mask on. And what happens is, as children learn that, writing, we learn that.
Susan Snow: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Either and it can go the pendulum can swing both ways. Right? I had a similar experience. There wasn’t room for my emotion because there was so much from my mom. Same for you. Like, there was like, Iagree that My mom died the day my dad died. Right? Like Mhmm. So there wasn’t room for my emotion. So I had to be strong. To I didn’t wanna rock the boat. I didn’t wanna upset her. Right? And so I think you can learn. You can be in a situation like that where you either learn to put the mask on or you learn how to grieve in a healthy way. And a part of that involves showing vulnerability, showing tears. Yep. Talking about what you’re experiencing. Yeah. Having space and room for everyone’s feelings and emotions.
Susan Snow: Yep. Well, I tell you
Victoria Volk: What would you do differently now? Right?
Susan Snow: Yeah. I mean, I think the funniest story for me was I was speaking. My kids had never they’ve never really heard my story from my perspective before. And I invited them in twenty nineteen. I spoke. I was a keynote speaker. And I wanted to have my kids there. So they came to watch me speak. And I had asked my middle son to video me. And so I did my I did my talk and I came off the stage and my kids were just like blown away. And they were like, I’ve never heard yours I’ve never heard it like that before. I I’ve never, like, Oh my gosh. Like, they didn’t know what to say, but my middle son said I said, did you get did you get anything on, you know, an ego’s mom? I got so caught up in your story that Iforgot to record you. I’m so so sorry. I was like, it’s fine. Because for me, it was like, okay. That sucks. But you know what? It was so much more important for my kids to be a part of that experience.
And to hear my story from their own mother, from my own lips, and to see where I was and where how far I’ve come because I felt like that was a really important lesson for them to learn. As young adults. And they have been on this journey with me, and Ithink I have such a close relationship with my children and even my I have a I have a stepson. I have a really great relationship with him. He is my kid. A woman another woman just had her had him. I’ve been blessed to be able to have this experience with my children and teach them exactly how to grieve, and that it’s okay to grieve, and it’s okay to to show your emotions. And you know, it’s not a weakness, and I’m here for you, and your dad is here for you. And we have always been very very much about showing support for our kids, not only our kids, but my friends make fun of me because they say I collect children, not in a weird way. But generally, kids who have challenging home lives themselves, who don’t find the support system themselves. Have found my husband and I as secondary parents. And I feel like that’s all coming and stemming from my own experiences. And making sure that other kids have the support that they need. And so now those kids are getting married and they’re having children, which is giving me grandchildren, non biological grandchildren, but You know, they see me as a positive person in my in their lives, and I am so grateful for that. So grateful for that, that they too have read my book and said, Wow. Like, when you say to me that you’re gonna get through this, or when you say to me those times where you say just let it go or if you’re feeling, you know, depressed, here’s Here’s some things that maybe might help or whatever. You get it. You literally get it. I said, yeah, I’m not just pulling this out of the sky folks. Like, I’m taking my own, you know, my own experiences and my own lessons learned and and just helping you, like, almost like giving you you know, they don’t even know what this is, but cliff notes. But most kids are like cliff notes. What are cliff notes? I don’t wanna talk to you anymore. If if you were around in the eighties, you know what a cliff note is. So yeah. I mean, that’s and I think that you know, as adults, and adults who have gone through things or have felt things sort of, you know, I feel like it’s important for us to impart our wisdom, our positive wisdom on to the younger generations because I feel like they have personally, I feel like they have a lot more. On their plate than even we did. The differences is that there is talk of mental health. And there is a lot known about PTSD, and there is a lot of conversation around trauma. And create
Victoria Volk: new free tools
Susan Snow: and loss. Yes. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: It’s so much more accessible.
Susan Snow: It is accessible. It’s just you know, people still need that little nudge. You know?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. You don’t wanna DIY your trauma and
Susan Snow: No. No. You still need the nudge.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. It’s you know, you’re only like you said earlier, you know, we I think and I did it too. Like, you you’re only extending the suffering by not bringing in the support that you need to move forward. And you know, we don’t know we don’t know. And Exactly.
People that know a little bit more and are a little bit further along. And those are the people you want to seek out. So
Susan Snow: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Thank you so much for sharing all that you’ve shared. Is there anything that you didn’t feel like you got to share?
Susan Snow: Oh my goodness. No. I think this was great. I mean, I hope I hope I’m putting it out there. I’m I’m throwing that energy out there that there’s someone listening who I just want you to know that you’re not alone. You’re not, and that there are people out there that care about you. And that, you know, there are resources available to you. And, you know, I’m I’m out there. You know, I’m accessible. I am open to talking to anyone heck, you know?
Who knows? If you’re sitting in my left ride what you’re gonna get. But, you know, Ijust hope that someone out there is able to resonate or connect with with this conversation, and it just shows them that there is hope and there is healing. That can happen.
Victoria Volk: Yes. Mhmm. Iwould love to dove into the divorce and the reconnection. Oh. When I say it’s hard. A self and everyone else would just have to read the book because I’m assuming that’s in the book?
Susan Snow: Yep. Okay.
Victoria Volk: Pick up the book if you wanna know more on that. We’re so about all our other podcasts. Interviews maybe?
Susan Snow: Yeah. Yeah. No. Italked about it more in the book than anything else, you know. Because the divorce is the divorce. The lessons out of it is is what’s important.
Victoria Volk: Right? Mhmm. Well, thank you so much again. And I will put links to the book, the your website, Instagram, and the show notes. I’ll also find a really good box breathing YouTube that I can add in there.
Susan Snow: Yeah. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Yep. And
Susan Snow: Yeah. Thank you. Wonderful. And did you say the name of the book? I don’t know remember if you did or not.
Victoria Volk: I believe you did. The other side of the gun.
Susan Snow: Yeah. The other side of the gun, my journey from trauma to resiliency. Yep.
Victoria Volk: Yep. I’ll put the link in the show notes for that.
Susan Snow: Perfect. Yeah. Awesome.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Cancer, Child Loss, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Grief is a teacher, a harsh one, but it comes bearing profound lessons.
In today’s heart-touching episode of Grieving Voices, I sit down with Dave Roberts, whose personal odyssey through loss is nothing short of inspiring. He shares his intimate experiences following the passing of his daughter to a rare cancer.
From grappling with unimaginable pain to discovering a spiritual connection and wisdom beyond the veil – this episode isn’t just about coping; it’s about transcending grief and embracing life in its entirety.
Key points covered in this episode:
- Dave reflects on three significant dates that changed his life.
- He discusses the rarity and severity of alveolar rhabdomyosarcoma, which ultimately led to his daughter’s passing just ten months after her diagnosis.
- The profound impact on Dave’s life post-loss, including how none of his professional training prepared him for grieving as a father.
- His involvement with bereavement support groups helped him feel less alone but also prompted deeper reflection on what more he needed for healing.
- He discusses a chance encounter that opened up new spiritual pathways that transformed Dave’s approach to grief, leading him to coauthor a book.
- The importance of continuing bonds with loved ones who have passed away is highlighted as an integrative process for moving forward while still honoring those we’ve lost.
Dave doesn’t hesitate to discuss raw emotions or societal expectations around male vulnerability. He dives deep into these topics, offering solace and understanding to anyone struggling silently.
Let Dave’s words guide you through the darkness toward the light—because sometimes it takes hearing someone else’s story to begin rewriting our own.
Transformative Grief: David Roberts’ Journey from Loss to Spiritual Connection and Empowerment
In the quiet moments of reflection, we often find our deepest insights. Today on Grieving Voices, David Roberts shared a story that echoes in the hearts of anyone who’s ever loved and lost.
David faced every parent’s nightmare when his daughter Janine was diagnosed with a rare cancer just after giving birth—a time that should have been filled with joy instead became overshadowed by impending loss. His journey through grief led him to support groups, spiritual guidance, and eventually to teaching others about navigating the treacherous waters of bereavement.
His story isn’t just about loss; it’s about transformation. From the ashes of profound sorrow rose an understanding that grief is not linear—it’s a complex dance between joy and pain. David learned to live with his daughter’s memory woven into the fabric of his life, turning anguish into a source of strength.
As he shares these lessons with students at Utica University, he fosters an environment where mutual growth sprouts from shared experiences. He reminds us that while supporters may come and go as we evolve through our grief, change remains our constant companion—ushering us towards new beginnings even as we honor what we’ve left behind.
David’s message resonates beyond personal tragedy; it speaks to men grappling with societal expectations around emotional expression. It challenges couples to navigate their unique paths through mourning together yet apart in their individual processes.
Above all else, David teaches us that embracing new perspectives can illuminate pathways out of darkness—not by leaving our losses behind but by integrating them into who we are becoming.
For those yearning for more wisdom or seeking solace in similar stories—you’re not alone. Reach out to David at davidrobertsmsw.com or tune into his podcast Teaching Journeys for further exploration on consciousness and healing beyond death’s door.
Remember: In acknowledging vulnerability lies great strength; in sharing your narrative resides immense power—to heal oneself and inspire many.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Hey, hey, hey, thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, you’re joining me and my guest David Roberts a licensed master social worker who became a parent who experienced the death of a child when his daughter, Janine, died of cancer on March first two thousand three at the age of eighteen. He is a retired addiction professional and is an adjunct professor in the psychology department at Utica University in Utica, New York. Dave has presented brief workshops at National Conferences of the Compassionate friends, as well as for the bereaved parents of the USA. He has been a past Huffington Post contributor and has authored several articles on Grief for a variety of Internet publications. He co authored a book with Reverend Patti Ferino titled when the Psychology Professor met the Minister which was self published on Amazon on March first twenty twenty one, which also happens to be or was eighteenth anniversary of your daughter’s death, which I imagine was not a coincidence.
Dave Roberts: It was that, Victoria.
Victoria Volk: So let’s start there. And actually rewind the clock to when your daughter became ill because she passed up a very rare form of soft tissue cancer called alveolar Rhabdomyocarcoma.
Dave Roberts: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: Which is rarely – it was more common in children under the age of ten, and can have a genetic disposition of it. So when did you when did she when did you as a family find you know, when did she receive that diagnosis? And
Dave Roberts: Well, at
Victoria Volk: that time.
Dave Roberts: I would have taken back to three significant dates. You know, to to set up the timeline for this. First and foremost, Janine became pregnant in September, I believe, of two thousand and one. And on May second two thousand and two, she delivered a healthy baby girl. Her name is Brianna, and she’s Brianna is now twenty two years old. And during her pregnancy, she had a freak injury to her right foot. And her foot became progressively swollen throughout her pregnancy. And we had Victoria attributed the swelling of her foot to just the normal complications of pregnancy. Adema, And, you know, we just figured it wasn’t anything. It was we figured it was gonna go away once she was once she had delivered her child. However, her foot became progressively worse. Any type of treatment that they used to treat her foot such as a walking boot or rest or elevation did not stem the swelling. So her orthopedic surgeon wanted to do an MRI in April of two thousand and two, but she needed to have said, absolutely not. I wanna wait until my baby’s born. So Brianna again was born on May second two thousand and two. She Jadine had the MRI done in the hospital and they found an undefined eight centimeter mass at the bottom of her foot. About a week or so later, they biopsied it. The biopsy came back as highly suggestive of cancer. On May twenty six, he was officially diagnosed with the Veiliar Rhabdomyosarcoma. Again, a very rare inactive muscle tissue cancer. In the week prior to her official diagnosis, I had just received confirmation that I met the requirements for my master’s in social work degree from Suni Abenei. So on May second, I became I experienced the immense joy of being a grandparent. On May nineteenth, a satisfaction of a twenty five year journey of getting my master’s degree. And on May twenty six, I found myself now the parent of a terminally ill child. In June, we went to Dana Farber Research Institute in Boston, which is one of the best, if not, the best pediatric research and treatment centers for sarcomas in the United States. Because in our area, and I’m from upstate New York, a little town called Lloydsboro, New York. We don’t deal with sarcomas. That’s not the specialty of the oncologist here. So they sent us some place that would be more probably, more in a position to to to treat it more effectively. But when we got there, we had a five minute consult with one of their one of their oncologists. Janina had stage four cancer which meant it totally metastasized and metastasized her bone marrow to her lymph nodes to her bones. They told us that there was absolutely no cure for cancer. The only hope that they were going to have for any type of gove cure was to put her cancer into remission, keep it in remission until they can find a cure. So when my daughter and I firmly heard, and what my wife heard and what Janine’s significant other heard is that. Janine is gonna die. Unless there’s some type of a miracle. So I went from this joy of accomplishment, the joy of being a grandparent to all of a sudden looking at the possibility that I was good to good possibility. I was gonna be walking a path and no parent as ever ever wants to walk. And I did my own research. I found a good rabbit on myosarcoma site. And you had mentioned in the introduction that this is a cancer that is typical to children that are tenant under. Janine got a childhood cancer at eighteen. And that was one of the mortality indicators. Is that of her chances to to have some quality of life would have been better hit she had gotten us when she was younger? But the fact that she got it when she was older, plus her tumor size, plus bone marrow and footnote involvement, increased her chances that she was going to die as I call it now transitioned to a new existence. The five year survival rate for her type of cancer, Victoria, depending on what research you were looking at was ten to fifteen percent, which meant there was gonna be an eighty five to ninety percent chance that she was gonna die within five years. And she didn’t even make it a year within ten months from from diagnosis. From her diagnosis, she transitioned at home on March first two thousand and three with hospice services. And that led me on a path that I never thought I in my life, I would ever I would ever be walking. I was a I was an addiction counselor at the time. I started teaching at Utica University at the time. It was first, it was Utica College, now it’s Utica University. And none of my education, none of my training, none of my background as a therapist or my my work with individuals who had all kinds of trauma due to addiction or not due to addiction. None of that prepared me for for what I needed to do to move forward. So at age forty seven when this happened, my version of the midlife crisis wasn’t buying a sports car. Getting a to pay, getting a headpiece, trying to reclaim my youth, and I was trying to figure out what type of a person I was gonna be in the kind of world that I was going to choose to live in. And I am paraphrasing thatthat term from a gentleman by the name of Neil Peirk, the late Craig Drummer for the Canadian Rock Band Rush who had his own series of tragedies. And he talked about needing to get to determine the type of world he wanted to live in and the type of person he wanted to be after those tragedies. And his conceptualization of his path really, really kinda mirrored mine. And really, I couldn’t have said any better than he did. So that is the background story. That’s how I’ve gotten That’s how I got to this point in my life where now every everything that I stood for, my values, my beliefs, my priorities everything was on the table now. Everything was up for discussion.
Victoria Volk: And how did that change? The David before your daughter passed versus the David after she passed?
Dave Roberts: Well, First of all, if you asked me to to to type of person I was at forty seven years old, Victoria, I couldn’t begin to tell you. That couldn’t begin to find him. He did a search priority to find him. So that person is no longer a part of me. It’s just it’s just it’s just a distant memory. What got me to this point, and it it went in steps and went in steps for me. First was fighting really adequate support, which is necessary to get through any type of any type of grief journey. I found a really good with the help of my wife Sherry, a really good bereavement support group for parents that was sponsored by a local funeral home. Because one of the things is that I really felt alone. You know, I really felt like, jeez, I’m the only person going through this because my world was so shattered and my world was so broken. I didn’t even know where I fit in with this. I didn’t even know did that did anybody else have that has anybody else ever gone through this? Now, intellectually, I figured people had but that wasn’t, you know, but it wasn’t registering anywhere else with me. I just couldn’t, you know, I just couldn’t conceptualized that anybody else was going through, what I was going through. But when I walked into that brewery parent support group for the first time, I saw eighteen other parents who were going through the do the same thing.
And then all of a sudden, I wasn’t alone. And their parents said they were longer a lot farther along in the journey than me, and it helped for me to kind of pick their brains and listen to what they did to help them get to the point that they got through, to begin to and to begin to reengage in life again. I began to do some reading and books of other found grief and other other parents who had experienced a transition of a child And then I began to get involved in doing some workshops for the compassion, friends, and later around thebury parents of the USA, two organizations and support families who have experienced a death of a child of any agent from any cause. And then in two thousand and ten, my whole and I also began to to start or help and organize grief conferences and do some other things in honor of my daughter. I was doing what I felt I needed to do at the time to try to re engage in life and to try to make sure that she was always gonna be remembered.
And then in two thousand and ten, everything changed where my perspective really got a total shot of a spiritual adrenaline?
Victoria Volk: In what way?
Victoria Volk: What do you say to people who maybe are attending such groups and are feeling like they’re not moving forward? Or, you know, because oftentimes, in the work that I do with Grievers and hearing from people that I’ve worked with about support groups and things like that is if they’re not moving you to action. If you’re coming to it’s a great place to connect with people like you said to not feel alone and to who share a similar story. But if you’re coming in and you’re sharing your story and you’re hearing other people’s stories, which can be really heartbreaking for the grieber. Right? You you do you feel better when you leave, you know, after you hear other people’s, you know, sad stories and things. If it’s not moving you forward. So what do you say to to that?
Dave Roberts: So, basically, one of the things I would do First of all, if they feel that they’re not moving forward, I would ask them to perhaps do some inventory. What do you think is preventing you from moving forward? Is it something that you’re missing within yourself? Is it something within the group? Has the group become you know, has the group that support group specifically not met your needs anymore because a support group that might be good for somebody who’s in the early phase of grief as an individual feels they’re progressing and they’re not, that support group may actually not be be be serving that purpose for them anymore.
So I would encourage them. I would ask them, what are some other things that you’ve been curious about exploring? Well, you know, both I’m looking about I’d like to explore maybe something like native. I’m thinking about it, the teachings of animals and nature. So I might refer them to the Native American teachings of Jamie Sams and Ted Andrews just to to look in to look to look at that and see how they can integrate at peace.
I would ask them, you know, have, you know, have they journaled, you know, maybe do some journaling to see exactly and you know, what they feel that their message is right about, you know, specific things that are going on and what may be triggering that and what they feel that. You know Dan’s also asking what specific culting skills do they think they need moving forward or what other perspectives. Because one of the things it’s it’s really easy to to to to feel like you’re not moving forward in grief even though you seem to be on the surface doing okay. And and that was that was for me. I think one of the things that two thousand and ten thathappened to me is that I felt that I was getting to a point where, you know, I feel like I’m doing this okay, but there’s something more than I’m missing. And the way thatmanifested is the day after the conference, I was taking three presenters up into the adiranax, up north because of the changes season up north around here in September, Victoria is really nice with the changing of the leaves and colors of the leaves. It kinda looks like just intensive water paint or oil painting. So I was they were having this intense conversation about spirituality. And I looked up at the sky and I said, I wanted to be where they are. Now, I wasn’t saying this to anybody in particular. Am I doing God or what it might have been the universe, could have been creative, could have been anybody. But I said I want to be where they are. And I’ve come to discover that intention is a powerful form is the most powerful form of prayer. So I would tell an individual, state your intention. What do you what have what do you do you see yourself now in the next phase of grief? What do you see yourself embracing? Where do you see yourself being? I said I wanted to be where they are. And I just basically wanted some some more information on spirituality so that it could give me some more tools to be able to move forward. The universe, however, conspired to give me more than I asked for and it gave me Patty. Patty gave me all different perspectives. And everything. And the work that we did together and the work that she exposed me to that helped me find peace with my daughter’s transition also helped me do some healing of the ancestral wounds over my father’s abandoned when I was five years old and my mother’s decision that to remarry and become overprotective. So all of the work that she helped me do with Janine translated to doing more work in my past to help me heal fifty five year old lives with my father and at least you know, with with my mother probably, yeah, probably about that, probably thirty five or forty years anyway. At least, well, she transitioned to nineteen ninety four, So you’re talking, yeah, probably about thirty year old ones with that. So, you know, it just opened up a world to me I never thought possible in terms of just widespread coming to peace and widespread ongoing healing. Other areas of my life that I hadn’t anticipated, all because of the work that Patty lovingly did with me for ten years to help me embrace a different perspective that would allow me to come to greater awareness of myself, my role in the world, and also to help me find peace with what had happened. Now in acceptance of the fact that I could still engage in a world where my daughter was not physically present, one of the things that I wanna mention and I wanna clarify for your listeners and for your viewers is that just because of peace doesn’t mean I still don’t grieve. I still grieve. There are days depending on what is going on in my life that I could experience the raw pain of grief And it doesn’t matter if it’s ten years later or twenty one years later. But now I look at it as an expected part of the journey I am going to be at or Beth, I’m gonna walk. Until I transition myself. And I’ve relearned to realize the joy of pain, yearning, sadness that can all call exist and we can learn from we can learn from it all. And as long as we accept the fact that, yeah, I mean, you know, we’re going going to experience those emotions that are associated with any type of loss because just because the physical body is is no longer here, doesn’t mean that the relationship doesn’t continue. The relationship goes on and love continues to endure. And with love, there’s also the pain that goes along with it because that person is not physically present. And that can that can still occur throughout throughout the life cycle of grief. Which is why I’ve always said I believe that grief is a circular in its journey and it’s not a linear journey. It doesn’t go on stages. It It’s very much can can resurface at any time depending on what’s going on at the present moment.
Victoria Volk: And for those listening who are paying attention to your timeline, of when you felt like you could that you were once moving forward. You know, it doesn’t have to take ten years. It doesn’t have to take thirty years like it did for me. Thirty plus years actually. But I think if we allow ourselves to be open to the people, to the teachings of others, to nature that truly is in higher power, whatever you wanna call it, that really is wants to nurture us. In our longing and in our sorrow. I think that we can accelerate that healing a little bit if we’re open to it. Right? If we
Dave Roberts: Or more work.
Victoria Volk: Listening more than we’re projecting, maybe, our pain.
Dave Roberts: Howard Bauchner: Yeah. And the other thing is that, yeah, as they were open to it. And the other thing is that to give ourselves permission to become empowered to say, okay, this perspective can be integrated into my core belief system. This one cannot. You don’t have to agree with everything. You don’t have to take in everything. You take what’s gonna work for you. The other piece of that is also being willing to listen to perspectives that are markedly different from yours and not to judge it is saying, well, you know, the you know, this is not the the appropriate way to grieve. It’s basically listening to it, bearing witness to it and saying, okay, what can I take away from this? What can I leave behind? Or can I take anything away from it? And it’s okay. The thing all we need to do is basically bear witness and try to understand where the other person is coming from, how they got to that perspective. With with my work with Patty, every time she would introduce me to something, my scientifically curious and I would say, okay, how can the spiritual perspective fit in with my existing core rational belief system? And then I would call her back and say, cheese paddy this work. Because I can see this. I can see where and and what happened for me is I got I got that assessed for life again because I was discovering new things that I that I never thought possible. And whenever we can discover perspectives that are novel, that work, then we think, boy, if we incorporate these this is gonna mean I’m gonna be moving forward as opposed to stagnating or moving backwards that it empowers us, it energizes us and I think it informs the service work that we do with others and makes it more rich because now we can share that. Anything that I learned learned about my own journey with with grief, I share that with my students at Utica University and my deaf dying and bereavement class. They know very much from day one, my history, including my history with Janine, and in losing a child. And anything that I learned, it’s just like I’m excited to share that with them. And then in turn, they will share perspectives with me that they teach me. So it’s just, you know, it’s just when you’re willing to be open and when you’re excited about what you have learned to communicate, it just opens up so many more doors doors. For connection, our support groups will evolve naturally, I think, based on where we’re at in our grief. People that were there for me in early grief aren’t there for me now, but that’s okay because a lot of that has been a choice that I’ve made to bring in different people in my support group who are going to be been are gonna be helpful to me now. So my support group has evolved. I have let’s see. It’s it’s it’s been fluid And that’s one of the other things I tell individuals expect that things are going to change. The early, early aftermath of a of a death, people that you thought were going to step up are No. Can’t be found anywhere because they don’t know how to deal with your grief. The people that you never thought were gonna step up do. And what is gonna be constant is change. But look at change is something that could be energizing as opposed to debilitating or as opposed to just being uncomfortable.
Victoria Volk: That’s where the growth is.
Dave Roberts: That’s where the exact
Victoria Volk: It’s getting uncomfortable.
Dave Roberts: That that’s you gotta be uncomfortable. I mean, you gotta be uncomfortable. And that is where the growth is. You know, we can’t grow without some type of uncomfortability.
Victoria Volk: And that is grief. That is the grief. And so it’s allowing ourselves to, I think, lead into into the pain first so we can really feel it. But also, like you said then, integrate it into our lives Mhmm. And follow our curiosity as to, you know, and I think too part of what you said is is asking ourselves deeper questions that grief often brings up for us that we’re afraid to ask because we are afraid of the answer. Because once we know the answer, we have a choice to make.
Dave Roberts: That’s right. And do we want to move forward? Do we want to stay stuck? And I think we do I think eventually once we we let the raw pain of grief and golfers, we do have a choice in terms of how we can move forward. I think if you look at Victoria, those individuals that I’m sure you’ve had on your podcast, those individuals in society who have transcended challenge. They did it because they made a choice to reengage in life again. They made a choice to say, okay. If this is the path that the universe or my higher power or God is going to to unfold for me. I am gonna make the best of that path for the remaining time that I have on the Earth. And other people can choose to make a choice not to do that. And there are consequences with every choice that we make. I used to tell my clients when I was an addiction’s professional. You choose the consequence of your actions. You can choose the consequences a sobriety, you can choose the consequences of of addiction. Okay? But the choice is gonna be yours. You’re gonna need to experience those consequences. I can’t do that for you. But it said, if you’re going to choose choose wisely. And if you’re going to choose consequences that are not going to have a negative or it’s not going to have a positive outcome, or could not have a positive outcome, put the accountability where the accountability needs to be, and that’s how you take responsibility for that.
Because once you take responsibility for your actions, you’re gonna jump back in a treatment sooner. Once we take responsibility for how we are going to transcend our grief we are able to move through grief. If I never use terms like closure or move on, when we move through grief, we integrate our grief, and we learn to accept we are living in a world where things are different because our loved ones are not physically present. And any loss, it doesn’t have to be the loss of a child, any loss drastically changes the landscape of our lives because we’re a person’s physical absence, physical absence, changes who we are and changes how we relate to the world. The loss of a pet as well too, depending on the nature of the relationship thatperson has with a pet, is gonna have those those same type of consequences. I’ll be at a different kind of grief. It’s still gonna have the same consequences. So
Victoria Volk: I’ve actually, some people have shared with me that losing their pet felt like they were losing a limb.
Dave Roberts: Absolutely.
Victoria Volk: Part of themselves. Gut wrenching. Like, these are the words that, you know, I’ve heard, and it is one of the most minimized losses too. Yeah. But I was thinking about as you were sharing your story about Janine and Brianna, I just I was envisioning this little girl Actually, I was envisioning Janine, like, as a mother myself, I it’s like, to hear that news and to know that this little girl you just gave birth to will not know you growing up. Like, I can’t even imagine being a new mother and having to go through all of those emotions. How did you support her? And how did she I mean, I suppose it was every day just a matter of survival and doing what she had to do to survive, while being a mother like that, I just I can’t even wrap my head around that.
Dave Roberts: What when when We had offered Branno was born. We had offered Janine and her significant other living in an apartment and their own. To come and live with us, you know, until she got she got better or until she was they were able to to and her significant other time was going to school, he was working. And he was taking full time. He was taking care of Janine. So he finally said to Janine, so we can’t do this. I said, I can’t do all of this myself. Let’s move in with your parents. So they moved in her significant other her significant other her name’s Steve. Jenny their cat moved in with our two cats, me, Sherry, and my two boys. So the joke was how many How many two leggings and four leggings could you get in two a single level ranch? And we ended up, I think ended up, I think, shattering that equation. After Janine transitioned, Janine had asked Steven, she goes, look, she didn’t say, well, she said, please stay here until Brianna’s ready for kindergarten. Stay with my parents. I don’t want her uprooted anymore than she already is. To his credit, he was nineteen when Janine became sick. To his credit, he stayed for four years. He stayed until she hit kindergarten. He stayed with us. He has since remarried. He has a disc you know, he’s he’s very happily married. He made sure that we saw a brand regularly after after he moved. And now brand is twenty two She has a little girl of her own now and she’s got another child out of the way. So I’ve I’ve become a great grandfather. And, you know, and it’s got a surreal holding Janine’s grandchildren as well too. So, you know, you take a look at all of us. And But it was for Janine, one of the things that she made sure to do is she recorded every moment that she had with Brianna. When Brianna walked, when Brianna started talking, when they did things together. And one of the more surreal experiences I had. I think it was last year of Victoria. I had the DVD of Janine’s last Christmas. And I sat down with Brianna, we watched that. So Brianna had a chance to see what kind of a mother Janine was to her for the time that she had with her and she was able to at least get an understanding of who her mother was. You wanna talk about surreal and emotional? That was that was something watching that with her. And but Janine documented everything because she knew she wasn’t gonna be around. In fact, she told me the Christmas before she transitioned and and it was just it was just after Christmas, who were sitting in the family room and we were by ourselves. And she goes, you know, Dan, I did a lot for everybody that I did for this Christmas, because I’m not sure I’m gonna be here next year. She knows she wasn’t gonna be here next year. She knew that. I think she she had a sense of that from the beginning. And I just didn’t say it to her. I just said, I understand, honey. And that’s all I said to her. She never asked me. Do you think I’m gonna die? She knew. She knew. And that’s why she did what she did. To give you an understanding of how resilient she was, When we got back from Dana Farber, and I tell the story, I had this old Jeep Cherokee, and she was in a lot of pain, you know, from her buying and everything from the tumors. And we were was a five hour drive from Boston, and I was sitting every bump in the road. She was screaming out in pain. And I tried going slow. I tried going fast. Nothing worked. So we got home. She sat out of the couch. I walked up to her all of a sudden, I start crying like a baby. I just buried my face in her lap. And I just said, honey, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to cause you so much pain. I looked up and she started having tears in her eyes. She looked at me. She goes, dad, I don’t worry. She goes, I’m peripheral. I’m that paraphrasing us a little bit, dad, don’t worry. I was just yelling because I wasn’t so much pain. You know what you said to me after that? She goes, if dad, if you can’t sleep, come and find me, we’ll talk. So I’m thinking to myself, this is a young lady who’s dying, and she’s worried about taking care of me. So I kind of figured, well, she could if she could look at it with that type of toughness, I could get through it. And I could get at least I could get through it. I could at least you know, get through what she is, get through the treatment and and and try to be strong for her through that because she was strong for me. When I was I was just a mess. And that’s the one moment that I’ll and thatwould tell you what she was probably was like as a mother. She made sure that the time that she had with Brianna was quality time. And in the summer, when her chemo was having a positive respect, they did a lot of things together. And she had that DVD so that at some point, Brandon, I can and my wife sure can look at that with her and say, here’s this is your mother. And that was a powerful, very emotional experience for me. And I think for Brann as well too.
Victoria Volk: Brings tears to my eyes, just hearing it.
Dave Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. It’s I get emotional telling that story. You know, I can I can tell when I get emotional because I start I start my voice starts breaking up a little bit? I can just feel it in here and it’s but that that’s a testament to the type of young lady she is.
And, you know, it was just the impact she had and and the type of mother she was and and it would have it it could have been and would have been had she had she’d been alive.
Victoria Volk: And to be so young, I think that’s the part that really just touches me is how young she was and just like, how quickly she had to grow up?
Dave Roberts: She had yeah. She had to be you know, it was interesting. She was talking about getting married to Steven in the backyard of her house. And any other side of the coin she was talking to wonder about whether she was gonna make it, you know, what you would also thatbut that’s that type of compartmentalization that you normally see with, you know, you’re one the one he had you thinking about, Bob, but I’m very the love of my wife and second hand, you’re thinking about chemo treatments, and you’re thinking I’m not gonna make it. But, you know, she Don, she told me right from the beginning, she was I’m not going down without a fight.
Victoria Volk: Did they end up getting married?
Dave Roberts: No. Okay. No. No. They didn’t. There was something that they she’s she had always wanted to get married in in her backyard. She already had the son to the she would she one day was she was fifteen. She goes, this is a sign we’re gonna dance to with my wedding. And she had a head that all figured out. What some
Victoria Volk: do you know?
Dave Roberts: I don’t remember. It was a country western song. It was a slow one. And I don’t remember. I never thought to ask her you know, for the type of for the science analytics. Because the time she was cancer free, I’m thinking, I got all kinds of time to figure that out. And then I think, you know, you think you got time and then all of a sudden there isn’t time. So so now I’ve learned to make sure now that when as I make sure I ask those questions, well, what sign is this now? Because not because what I’ve learned through this whole thing is that today isn’t given. Today, you know, today, you know, it’s here to go. I’m very grateful any day I get to wake up and do those. And I share that with God. The universe Thank you for giving me another day. Thank you for allowing me to get up and and, you know, make have this a day where I can make it a great day.
Victoria Volk: Maybe it’s a song about double rainbows.
Dave Roberts: Maybe. Maybe maybe, but
Victoria Volk: You’re gonna go to Google after this.
Dave Roberts: I’ve got a I’ve got a afternoon, Victoria. You got, like, you got a curiosity picked.
Victoria Volk: So who care so I imagine Steven then became her primary caregiver and, you know, and she’s Yep. After she passed and everything and
Dave Roberts: You know, Stephen, who was a state of my wife, and then my thirteen year old son, Matt, who was also involved. And that was his introduction to puberty having a terminally ill sister. And so thatwas I know he was difficult for him, but he just whenever my wife had to go to work, dad would take over. And when Steve came home, that was, you know, he would he would do the primary care duties. And he did it. I would say, nobley is probably an understatement, but he just did what he had to do because he he loved her unconditionally.
Victoria Volk: And to be nineteen too and to take that on as well and to not run away from it and face it and do what he had to do. That’s commendable as well.
Dave Roberts: And my daughter gave him an out. She goes, look, you don’t have to do this. And he looked at her. He says, where am I going? Because I got going anywhere.
And she tried to give him an out because I think she knew what was down the road for her. A body said, no. And I was a a testament to his love for her. And so it was kinda like if you look at it was kinda like a kind of our version of Romeo and Juliet.
Victoria Volk: What was the best piece of advice that you received while you were deep and grief? And I imagine maybe it was from your friends that you co authored the book with, but maybe not. Howard Bauchner:
Dave Roberts: There are two pieces of advice. I’m gonna break this down first in about probably early phase of grief, which is for me about two and a half to three years, and then nine years later, which I would consider to be kind of the beginning of later grief for me. Okay. I had mentioned earlier in our discussion that I was a member of a grievance support group. And it was sponsored by local funeral home. Their support group was facilitated by Franciscan nuns by the name of Sister Rose Trot. And she did a really, really great job. I mean, you could you could come into that group and say that you’re angry with God, angry with the universe she was she just would was not very nonjudge about it because she understood that. Mhmm. There was a time two and a half years two years into this where I said, I’m tired of being a bereaved parent. I don’t wanna do this anymore. So I stopped going to my support group. I caught myself up for meaningful support. I ended up being more miserable than ever. But I just didn’t wanna do it anymore. I wanted my wife back the way it was. I wanted my daughter back I said, I’m tired of going through this crap. And then it finally got to the point where I said, I need to talk to somebody. So I talked to Sister Rose. And I told her, I said, sister Rose, I am angry. That God. She looked at me. She goes, well, what if you put your shoe on the other foot. And it’s thought that maybe God is just as upset as you are because of what’s happened. And when I she she twisted that around a bit in which she looked at us. So, wait a minute. And I started thinking about I remember in the beginning, I told you I didn’t really I didn’t believe in science. I didn’t really But there are some really weird things that were happening to me shortly after Janine transitioned, I would have had a butterfly follow me around when I was walking my granddaughter I heard a song on the radio when I was thinking of Janine that we both had enjoyed. And I started thinking, see, something unusual is going on, but I couldn’t make sense. I couldn’t make sense of how to integrate it. But then one of the things I looked at, I said, well, Maybe if he’s just as upset as me, maybe that’s why he’s been kind of god’s been throwing out these signals that maybe she’s still around. So I was I was starting to think that maybe maybe those signals that it put the butterfly in everything were gonna be the start of something new. A new perspective. But at the time, I wasn’t ready to to see how that fit. But it it plan to save for that. So that shift in perspective. And then when I was talking with Patty about nine years couple years after I met her, the thing with cancer diagnosis is that. You I used to I remember I will remember the dates that she was diagnosed, the dates that she stopped treatment I’ll remember the date that she went into the act of phase of dying. I’ll remember the day that she took her last breath because I was there to witness that. She transitioned on March first of twelve thirty. I held her hand. I she took two swift breaths, and then she stopped breathing. And it always then always haunted me around when I came up to, like, the data for death every year that haunted me. So I told Patty that I said, you know, I can’t help but think that I was the last person to see my daughter alive, and that haunts me that I was there to witness her last prop. And Patty looked looked at me where she was around the function because what if you’re looking as you being the first person to usher into her new existence?
Is you were the person to transition her into eternal life. That was the message. And I said, wow. I never looked at it that way. And By then, I had begun to integrate the whole stuff with after deaf communication. I began to believe in the survival of consciousness. So that helped me shift my perspective and integrate spiritual practices and spiritual beliefs with science. And all of a sudden, well, I made thinking I am the last person to I sure earned to eternal life. That’s shifted to feelings that I had about her last moments of her physical existence at her. So those two or probably the best pieces of advice I gather the best suggestions or comments or seed seed planters that I that I got. Those that just planted seeds allowed me to think about things differently.
Victoria Volk: And I think it comes back to being open to be open to seeing things differently. In a nutshell. Right?
Dave Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. And and that whole experience with Patty and Long Island had helped me up. And plus, I had asked for that experience back and, you know, after the conference, I wanted to be where they are. My my intent, my prayer was answered.
And I believed everything that happened that weekend and we outlined it, you know, very, you know, very, very detailed in the book. I believed in everything that happened. I didn’t question it because I asked for.
Victoria Volk: What does your grief taught you?
Dave Roberts: Wow. Well, my grief taught me a lot of things. It taught me that life isn’t fair. That waiting a good life isn’t gonna push in you from tragedy, that the quality of our life is determined by not so much the fairness of life but it’s determined how well we transcend those challenges that are presented to us. And we can define Victoria tragedy in any way, shape, or form. But it’s how we transcend tragedy and what we do as a result of that. How do we find purpose? How do we find meaning? How can we serve others that are walking the same path? And how can we make sure that the and I think I’m paraphrase of an old Lakota saying how do we make sure that the tracks we we behind are going to to be impactful. And again, that’s a real that’s really paraphrasing that. But I think what the Dakota is saying is we will be forever known by the tracks we leave behind. And so let’s make sure the traps we leave are going to last long after we physically leave and serve.
Victoria Volk: That’s beautiful. What do you say to maybe men who are listening? Who like many men struggle talking about their emotions and their feelings. And more commonly, struggle with addiction, maybe even perhaps after devastating loss, who might say, I don’t need to rehash the past.
Dave Roberts: Well, yeah, I think one of the things I learned is that with any type of tragedy, the pass is gonna come back and look you right in the face. What I had to do. And I think Eric Ericsson had talked about integrity at the end of life where we take a look at the end of our life. We will take a do a life review and say, did we did we live a meaningful life? Well, that process started for me at age forty seven. Where I’d I mean, you you basically we have to look at the past. It’s required when I we’re taking a look at rebuilding our assumptions world. We have to take a look at those past beliefs that contributed to our understanding of the present prior to tragedy. So we have to look at the past. What I tell everybody is the past isn’t meant to be stared at. It isn’t meant to be judged. It is meant to be learned from. There is pro medicine saying in the Jamie Sam’s book medicine cards with Crow, matter the past as your teacher, out of the present, as your creation, and out of the future is your inspiration. We take a look at our past. We understand the decisions that we made in the present. We also can take a look at at and look at the tragedy we’ve experienced and say, okay. How can we learn through the past? How can and and what can we now do develop the president of our creation in the future of our inspiration based on what’s happened, what tools and what resources that we can use. So for first of all, I tell people you the pass is something that is if you don’t look at it, it’s gonna bite you right in the behind. Because you’re gonna it’s gonna come up and you need to look at it so that you can you can orchestrate the present and future of your own desires. It’s part of cocreating our own new reality with the universe after tragedy. The other thing with men and they get a bad rap for this is that, well, oh, men don’t talk about their feelings. If I had a nickel for every woman who came up to me and said, my guy doesn’t talk about his feelings. That’d be a rich man because men are equipped to emote directly. Mehta, we’re taught it early as you suck it up. You take care of those that you love. Feelings are are both make you vulnerable and make you weak. So essentially, with feelings, we learned to distract ourselves from our feelings by doing stuff. Okay? Do men feel just as intensely as women? Absolutely. We just deal with it differently. Women are more comfortable with sharing their feelings, with the molding, with with tears, where men, if they cry, they’re when they cry, they’re gonna cry privately. If they’re feeling out of sorts, they’re gonna go build something, they’re gonna go to try to solve a problem. And so I would tell men be gentle with yourself. If you wanna find out how a guy is failing, ask them what they’re thinking because we’re in our heads a lot. If you ask, Guy, what are you thinking? And this guy’s this guy says, boy, this really stinks. Well, how does that make you feel? Well, I feel angry. I feel disillusioned. I feel confused. You’ve gotten to your feelings through to his feelings through your thoughts. But if you’re asking him how he’s feeling directly, he may not go there with it. Because of how he’s been conditioned to deal with feelings. The other thing is that, I’m sure you’ve heard this word on you’ve heard probably other people telling you, well, my boyfriend gets upset when I cry over a tragedy. My husband gets upset when I cry after a tragedy. Here’s the other thing. Men of I believe have also been conditioned to take care of those that they love. And for me, when I saw my wife cry, when I saw my my boys in in emotional pain, it reminded me that I did not do my job as a father to protect my family from home. Mhmm. For two and a half years, I beat myself up because I thought I should have seen the signs of my daughter’s cancer sooner I thought I should have persuaded her to do one more clinical trial. I’ve my inadequacies as a father and a protector always brought up when my wife was crying because this reminded me of what I couldn’t do. And I realized now that I did the best that I could’ve given the situation I was dealt with, So, you know, it’s just this was just there was all of that. And I just tell you know, which I it gets we do feel. It’s just the the the the if a woman in our lives is crying, it’s not because of That’s not because of no cries because of what their peers represent. They represent a failure of us to provide our do our job as a protector for our family. And that’s and that’s why. If we can understand that, my wife has a totally different grading style than me. Once we began to understood how we agreed, we could begin to support ourselves with and give ourselves space with it and begin to understand it. And I think if I were doing couples counseling with a with a couple who was newly bereaved, I would tell them understand how each other’s grief for each other’s grief respect it and try to figure out how you can support each other within it without trying to change it without trying to change it.
Victoria Volk: Or or expecting the other person to carry the entire weight. Yes. Yep. Experience. Yeah.
Dave Roberts: Yeah. And that’s sad. You know, if you look at we’re talking about how to an orbit of relation shifts with the male and female. You know, seventy five percent of men are going to fit that type of gender ex role expectation of expressing emotions. I mean, twenty five percent won’t. So there may be some situations where you’ll see a woman who will suppress her emotions in a man who is gonna be more intuitive and can don’t come who’s a thing Thanatos well known Thanatos. Just talked about intuitive versus instrumental males. The instrumental males were the males that had through traditional male oriented expectations of expressing grief. The intuitive male were those that were more feelings oriented and were more automotive. It says understanding how do you grieve.
Just because you don’t cry doesn’t mean you’re not grieving.
Victoria Volk: Bingo.
Dave Roberts: You know, and that service everybody measures grieve by the amount of tears that they’re a pig when everybody cries. Brief is manifested very differently, and we need to understand that. When you are sad, When you’ve had previous tragedies, how has your grief come out? It may not be tears. It may be anger. It may be withdrawal. It may be being distracted. It may be your ability for a lot of individuals who suppress emotions. As you mentioned, addiction can be a real big issue. Especially for those individuals that don’t don’t have an outlet to suppress her feelings. And particularly if there’s been a family history, thatcoping mechanism of self medicating can be can be something that has gone to pretty ruddling. If there are no other alternatives for call from strategies presented.
Victoria Volk: And they don’t allow themselves to bring the support in.
Dave Roberts: That’s right. That’s right. And we have to the other thing is we have to believe that we are worthy of being nurtured. And a lot of times we may not accept help because there’s a stigma in terms of asking for help and accepting help, but we need to believe that when we can’t do it on our own, and we need to believe that we are worthy, we are lovable enough to accept that we we can be loved by others, and we can be taken care of by others. I think a teaching from the afterlife abilities finger saying, why do you believe you need to earn the right to be loved when you’ve been bored with that already? We’ve been born with that. Why should we believe that we’re not deemed worthy of being helped?
Victoria Volk: And how has this transformed your relationship with your with your wife? Like, did this bring you closer together? For a time, I imagine maybe it was very challenging like you alluded to earlier.
Dave Roberts: Oh, it was because we didn’t have the energy to deal with Chuck with with our own grief much less each others. And we were pretty much, I guess, were drawn from each other for a while. I think that was one of the net the natural consequences of grieving. But one of the things is gradually as we, you know, we we became coming together. We talked. We carved out some time for ourselves to listen to each other. And our relationship now is stronger as ever been. We’ve been married for forty two years. We have You know, I’ve got two great two great sons Dan and Matt. They’ve got four grandchildren and one great grandchild and another one on the way. So, you know, given everything that has happened, Victoria, to I feel like I’m a blessed man. And I couldn’t have said that twenty years ago. I could if I if I couldn’t envision myself saying that to you now. But one of the things that grief has taught me is is is another thing is to be grateful for what you have in your life. As opposed to what you don’t have in your life or what you can’t have in your life. There are days that I said I wish my daughter could be back here. I wish that I could have found another type of tragedy to to to find meaning from, and I have my family intact. But I learned whenever I started earring for that, I said, well, you know, I can’t continue to earring for something that I can’t have. So I immediately go back to the Okay. What am I grateful for today? And that gets me regrouted again. It gets me back to where I need to pay.
Victoria Volk: And then when you see those double rainbows
Dave Roberts: Oh, yeah?
Victoria Volk: That really crowns you.
Dave Roberts: Yeah. It does. It does. And and anytime I see a three one or here her name mentioned or I run it to somebody thatone time I made a call and I was going to a conference in Saint Savannah, Georgia. And I called to book a hotel reservation. Hey, you know, usually when you go through a Switchboard, it’s gonna be randomly get. So well, the operator picks up the phone and says, hello, this is Janine. Can I help you? Said, oh, this is gonna be an interesting conversation. And so I’d book the reservation. And all of a sudden, I got this nudge and saying, ask her how she spells her name because my daughter had a very unusual spelling for her name. It was j e a n n I n e. So I’ve stuck at a Janine, the operator on the phone. I said, Janine, I know it’s gonna sound like a weird question, but can you tell me how you spell your name? Guess how she spelled her name? Same way. So I’m thinking about, you can’t make this stuff up. So it’s that event. And the other thing that grief has taught me is there are no coincidences only serendipity. And the people that have come come into my life have come into my life at the times that they were supposed to come into my life.
Victoria Volk: I’d interviewed a minister not that long ago. Actually, David Chaka, it was one of my previous episodes, recent episodes, and he calls them divine appointments. Mhmm. And every day he asks for a divine appointment.
Dave Roberts: Well, I’ve had I’ve had I’ve had many of those in twenty one the twenty one years since my daughter is transitioned. So
Victoria Volk: You keep track of them?
Dave Roberts: Actually, I do. I don’t write them down as much as I used to anymore, but I know exactly when they’ve happened and I’ve got pictures of signs that I’ve gotten from her. I also have done I also have a slide presentation that I do in my death hunting breed and class. Right? Once this is section called Dewey survived death, and we get into after death communication. So I’ll give them some examples of signs that I’ve gotten signs that other students have shared with me. And so we have that discussion. And the whole theme of that discussion is the illusion of death. It’s death and illusion. Do we really die? Or do we just go on at a different form? And so we talk about that as well as the mainstream and the basics overview of death dying improvement. When we get into the spiritual aspects of it, with reincreditation studies, with near death experiences, with fast life regression, fast life experiences, everything. We get we get into all of it. And I tell them, Don’t confuse my passion for telling you, this is how you want to believe. This is how you need to believe. I’m giving you all this information because You may run into this with the clients on that. I wanna make sure you’re I’d rather have you over prepared than under prepared.
Victoria Volk: Or for yourself?
Dave Roberts: Or for yourself. And it’s amazing how it’s
Victoria Volk: guaranteed, probably.
Dave Roberts: Oh, oh, absolutely. I’ve had students afterwards literally. They’ve emailed me a You wouldn’t believe that they’ll they’ll email me with the sign that they got or something that they signed before we talked about class, and it gives them permission to open up about that.
Victoria Volk: Are you familiar with the work of Chris Kirk?
Dave Roberts: I’ve heard of Chris, but I’m not familiar with any of his does it a hearer shape? He he, I’m not familiar with that. I’m familiar with the name, but that does work. Howard Bauchner:
Victoria Volk: I don’t know if it’s still on Netflix, but there was a docu series called surviving death.
Dave Roberts: Yeah. Okay. Yes. That I that I am familiar with because I saw I didn’t realize Chris Curr was the mastermind behind it, but I saw that I saw the documentary. And I recommend that to my students a great overview of the non ordinary phenomenon that are part of the whole discussion of the field of fan oncology.
I think it’s it’s great.
Victoria Volk: He was on my podcast.
Dave Roberts: Really?
Victoria Volk: Yeah. So there’s an episode where he’s on my podcast. Yeah. And then Siri Burnson is psychic medium, and she’s also featured on that. And she was on my podcast as well.
So yeah. Interesting conversations. And and honestly too, like, my spirituality was greatly challenged for many years. And I think that that’s a component or a piece of healing that a lot of people maybe take the longest maybe to get to.
Dave Roberts: Yep.
Victoria Volk: In in terms of feeling like you’re finally moving forward. Because I think you with that shift in perspective and seeing things differently, seeing the death differently, I think that’s really one of the things that helped me personally?
Dave Roberts: Well, I think having placing an importance on spirituality is protective against so many different things, protective against mental illness. And I think it can improve physical and mental health care outcomes as well too. It can improve physical health. It can because that spirituality is there’s thatsense of greater awareness, that sense of connection to something greater than ourselves, and all of that, I think, can contribute to increased mental and physical health as well too? There’s no doubt in my mind.
Victoria Volk: Well, if we think about how we can even transcend our own consciousness through meditation or
Dave Roberts: Yoga.
Victoria Volk: Yoga. Adaptigens people using adaptogens to elevate their consciousness or Yep. Keep you an aspect of their consciousness that they wouldn’t see otherwise. We don’t need adaptogens to get there. We can meditate. Right? It can become a really strong meditator, but I think it’s then it’s fair to to reason that Well, who’s to say thatcan’t continue? That that consciousness? Like, what is what is the soul? You know, we are more than just our meat suits, you know?
Dave Roberts: That’s worse
Victoria Volk: than that.
Dave Roberts: Yeah. I mean, there’s another set of teaching the afterlife abilities fingers is that if we could look look into each other’s soul, it’d be one big will manifest. You know, we would look beyond the the implementation. We would look beyond the human contracts and conflicts that have kept people apart. If we could just look at each other’s souls, how we would see his love. And the world would be like one big love fest. But the human experience doesn’t allow for that to happen, and it’s not supposed to. Because any growth that occurs in any lifetime is for the greater revolution and the growth of our salt. And so we have to experience the pain and tragedies I think of the human experience in order for our souls to continue to evolve and grow.
Victoria Volk: We gotta go through the storms to see the rainbows.
Dave Roberts: Absolutely. You got it.
Victoria Volk: Anything else you would like to share that you don’t feel you got to?
Dave Roberts: Jeez, I think we we cover just about everything. I think I think we I think we covered a whole I think we covered a lot of ground.
Victoria Volk: I think so too. And where can people reach you and find you if they like to connect with you further?
Dave Roberts: Well, they could find me. They could go through my personal website. It’s david robertson s w dot com. They could go to myauthor website, which is psychology professor administrator dot com. If they’re interested in purchasing me and Patty’s book, It’s a one psychology method professor is on Kendall and paper back on Amazon. I’m also a podcaster. If they wanna take a look at the the the podcast, it’s a teaching journeys podcast, It’s on a a apple and Spotify. And they’ve they’ve had a lot of interest in guest, and Obviously, I went off I’ve talked about off camera and waiting you to be a guest out of podcast, so hopefully we can make that happen. And I’m just trying to those are, you know, email this booty and angel at gmail dot com if they wanna email me. And I’m all over the place on social media, I’m on Facebook, I’m on LinkedIn, I’m on Instagram, my son calls me the world’s oldest millennial, because I’m I’m not I’m not social media, so you could pretty much find me anywhere. And I’ll have a conversation with anybody that is grieving loss of a child, any any type of loss. I also believe in meeting people where their worst losses, their worst loss my worst loss doesn’t necessarily have to be their worst loss. I can tap into the pain of my own worst loss, know what that’s like, and meet somebody at their worst loss.
Victoria Volk: And so the David Roberts, LSW, does that have links to everything that you mentioned?
Dave Roberts: M s w dot dave roberts, m s w dot com. Does it have links to everything that I’ve but the other ones that I mentioned are separate.
Victoria Volk: Okay. And what was that again? The other website?
Dave Roberts: The other website, psychology professor and minister dot com. And then if if they reach us in purchasing the book, they can find out purchasing information through the author website or they can go directly on Amazon to find it.
Victoria Volk: Alright. I will put the link to those websites, your podcast, in the book, in the show notes
Dave Roberts: Mhmm.
Victoria Volk: And I thank you so much for sharing your time with me and helping us getting to know Janine and the remarkable young woman that she was in the short life that she was given and the story of your own transformation and of your grief and the work that you that it led you to do today. So thank you so much for your contribution.
Dave Roberts: My pleasure, Victoria. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I enjoyed our conversation tremendously today.
Victoria Volk: I did too. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life, much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Podcast, Widowhood |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
In the quiet after-hours of our bustling lives, we often overlook the profound journeys that shape us. For today’s episode, I had the honor of speaking with Denise Dielwart on Grieving Voices—a woman who turned her deepest sorrow into a beacon of hope for thousands.
After the sudden death of her husband left her in despair, Denise discovered that traditional methods of dealing with grief weren’t effective. This realization led to the development of the Flow Grief Release Method – an innovative approach designed to expedite healing from years to months.
Denise’s method challenges conventional wisdom about grieving and recovery timeframes. Instead of following prescribed stages or waiting on time to heal wounds, she advocates for proactive steps towards reclaiming one’s life after loss. Her focus is not just coping but transforming lives and finding joy again.
During our conversation, Denise shares candidly about:
- The shock and turmoil following unexpected bereavement.
- The inadequacy she felt while engaging in talk therapy.
- How questioning “Who am I?” post-loss was pivotal in redefining herself beyond being a wife or mother.
- Why widowhood is often misunderstood as a form of grief – it involves adjusting to numerous small changes that significantly impact daily life.
- Practical advice on navigating finances and legal matters after losing a spouse.
- Feeling emotions deeply rather than suppressing them as part of the healing journey is essential.
Denise emphasizes taking action over merely talking through pain and introduces us to her FLOW acronym: Feel your emotions fully; let go of what holds you back; overcome obstacles by addressing underlying issues; become whole by embracing your new identity post-grief.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
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NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Healing from Grief: Denise Dealwart Shares Her Transformative Journey
In today’s episode of Grieving Voices, we had the privilege of hearing from Denise Dealwart about her heart-wrenching experience with loss and her powerful path to recovery. After losing her husband unexpectedly, Denise embarked on a journey that led her to create the Flow Grief Release Method – an approach designed to help individuals heal from grief more rapidly and holistically.
Denise shares candidly about the limitations she encountered with traditional therapy and how it propelled her towards self-healing and redefining herself post-loss. She dives into the complexities faced by those who are widowed, including managing finances, legal issues, and emotional revelations after losing a spouse.
The Flow Method is centered around feeling emotions deeply but also letting go of pain while retaining love for the person lost. It’s about taking action towards healing rather than staying stuck in coping mechanisms. This method has revolutionized how people move through grief by addressing underlying trauma and unresolved feelings.
Denise emphasizes that everyone’s grief is unique; there is no one-size-fits-all solution. The conversation challenges conventional models like Elizabeth Kübler-Ross’s five stages of grief, highlighting its original context for terminal illness patients rather than bereaved individuals.
Through personal transformation stories, Denise illustrates how loss can lead to profound self-discovery as individuals navigate their new identities separate from their roles tied to loved ones passed away. Change may be daunting but embracing it can pave the way toward growth and rediscovery.
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today, I’m happy to bring to you Denise DealWart. She has experienced a profound loss firsthand after the sudden passing of her husband. After trying many methods that were not working, Denise sought a path to healing that led to the creation of the flow grief release method, a transformative approach to moving through grief with grace and ease. Denise’s journey from the depths of despair to rediscovering joy inspired her to help others. With over fifteen years of experience, she has guided thousands to reclaim their lives from grief using her unique flow method that dramatically shortens the healing process from years to months. Denise’s groundbreaking approach challenges the traditional stages of grief, the waiting of for time, offering a lifeline for those to those who feel stuck and hopeless. Her flow method isn’t just about coping. It’s about transforming your life and rediscovering joy in a way that’s both profound and lasting. We are on the same mission, my friends. So thank you for being here.
Denise Dielwart: Thank you so much for inviting me onto your your podcast. It’s an absolute honor to be here today and to be able to share how we do move forward from grief.
Victoria Volk: Because it is possible, like we were talking just before we hit record. Yeah. But we will get to that topic. Where I wanna start though is really where this all started fifteen years ago?
Denise Dielwart: Well, fifteen years ago, as you know, I’m in I’m in Australia. So fifteen years ago, my husband basically went to work and didn’t come home. He yeah. I was fifty one. He was fifty five. We had just we were just settling him down into our new life because we got married young and the kids, the door moved out and they we were on eight acres that was out after ever home that we built, eight acres. So he had a motorbike track out the back for the boys because I had I’ve got nine grandsons. And yeah. And then he woke up one morning, said goodbye. It was Monday morning, goodbye to you, and he never came home. He died of a blood clot. So there was no there was no good bias. There was nothing. It was there was no time. It was he was healthy. And obviously, that sent me into a complete, as I said, la la land, complete sprint. And but what I found was is that after I sort of came around and you sort of come out of that fog and you start moving forward, I was I was seeing a therapist, I was seeing a psychologist who was just talking to me, just talking, tell me about it, tell me about it, tell me about it. And I wasn’t getting any better. I wasn’t feeling as I was moving forward. And I knew that he wouldn’t want to see me crying for the rest of my life. You know, sitting there going, oh my god, look what happened to me. I’m so sad. As I wouldn’t want it have wanted it for him either. And that’s when I sort of went okay. What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And I kept asking that question. What do I do? How do I heal? Now bear in mind, this was fifteen years ago before Facebook and everything in the group’s, you know, was there. There wasn’t that support. And I knew though instinctively as well that I needed to heal me and I needed to heal. And that’s when my journey started. And I I I started looking within. I started healing myself. And, you know, the profound change with me changing my focus from not been at the moment that he died, but to who am I? Who am I now? That was my biggest question as a widow, you know. For women, we we so talk to do everything for everybody else. But when it comes to ourselves, We don’t we lose ourselves in our marriage or our partnership. We lose our identity. I got married at nineteen twenty. Turning twenty, had the kids young. I was a mother. I was a I was a wife that fell into that role. And then, of course, when that role gets taken away, it was like, well, who am I? I remember breaking down one night, and I’ve had breaking down with a with a this wine. I’m I will admit it. I had one one, and I had another one, and I had one one. And I sat there crying, and I felt Denise, who are you at fifty one? You don’t even know who you are.
Victoria Volk: I think a lot of people listening feel that way.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. A lot
Victoria Volk: of people just don’t know who they are.
Denise Dielwart: And I
Victoria Volk: think in it often, this happens when our lives are flipped upside down and we start asking ourselves, we just don’t ask ourselves those deeper questions.
Denise Dielwart: No. We don’t. We don’t.
Victoria Volk: So we’re forced to usually. Yeah. Because
Denise Dielwart: when when when when life is is happening and, you know, I mean, no marriage, and I say this to all the women’s that I’ve worked with. And I mainly work with women’s. I work with everybody, but my my My passion is with us because as as a widow, regardless of age, we We don’t, we’re the most misunderstood, deaf out there. People don’t understand what it’s like to lose a husband. They’re very special. It’s a different loss. Each loss is different. So if you lose a child, it’s a different loss to losing asthma. Or a life partner. Losing a life partner is you lose you lose not just that person, but you lose your whole life. You have to start over. You have to start reimagining your new life because that’s what it is. It’s a new life. Your life doesn’t just carry on. You don’t just go, okay. Well, I’ve got you know, so many people say, well, think that you oh, you just get over it. You’d never get over it. You never get over it. You know, that’s such a cliche. Aren’t you over it yet? Over what?
Victoria Volk: Did your kids tell you that or say that to you?
Denise Dielwart: My kids never told me that, but a lot of friends would say to me, you know, gosh, Denise, it’s been so It’s been six months, aren’t you over a kid?
Victoria Volk: How long did how long were you going to therapy and how long from the time when you started to you were going to therapy to when you realized, okay, this isn’t working for me. I need to figure this out, obviously, on my own. How much time it passed?
Denise Dielwart: It was about six months. About six months.
Victoria Volk: That’s still pretty fresh and new.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. I was so determined for for Martin’s sake, not for my sake. But for Martin’s sake, my husband’s sake, to continue living. Because I knew that he wouldn’t want me to to die with him. So that was my drive is that I wanted to heal as quickly as possible. Heel myself. Not forget about him or forget about the life we had together, but to heal me. You know, plus I had to come out my adult kids and I had the grandchildren and and, you know, we wanna be strong. We wanna put on face, but I didn’t I wanted to genuinely find joy again. And I’ve just pretend and put the mask on, you know, that I’ve called my the happy mask you know, the army k mask. How are you? Oh, okay. You know, so it was when I actually I was sitting as my therapist, my my Psychologist. And then I said to her, I said, how long am I gonna be? Fillingknockers? And she looked at me shocked, and she sent me to niece. She said, you’ve lost your husband. It’s only been six months. You’re gonna be like this for the next five to seven years.
Victoria Volk: Not good advice. And I’m not very hopeful, but listen.
Denise Dielwart: It was in that moment, but it was credited to us not really thinking back now because it was in that moment on the way home. I used some choice four letter words to my steering wheel. About, I’m not gonna stay like this. There’s no way that I’m gonna stay like this. Who the hell does she think she is? Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, pleated pleated It didn’t insert, insert, insert. But that was my turning point when it was like, okay. She’s not gonna help me. Because what therapy is is talk therapy. And we can’t talk our way out of grief. We have to take action. Amen. Amen.
Victoria Volk: I facilitate. It’s a program called the grief recovery method, and it is all action. Action.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Action. Yeah.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: So I do wanna mention one thing that you said, and then I will come back to the action piece but you had touched on it a little bit about the, you know, the grief of losing a child, which I cannot imagine. I I was narrowly close to losing my son. I mean, it was not that he almost died, but if the stars would have blind differently. He very well could have. Yeah. So I was faced with that, but and that’s not even to compare people who have lost a child. I just cannot imagine. But when you said about how different it is to losing a spouse, I’ve been married now. I’ve been with my husband for over twenty years and the differences with the child and the spouse is like you it’s the children grow up and they leave. Right? Like, you’re there you’re their caretaker for eighteen years, generally speaking, like most children leave go to college and want to get out of the house they don’t wanna listen to Monz Nagin anymore. Right? So but your spouse is very much still an integral part of your life on the daily once the kids are gone. Right? I just interviewed someone a gentleman who lost his wife of fifty one years.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: It’s sith. When you’re so you know, the two become one. Right? Well, you’ve just become so ingrained in each other’s daily lives. It’s almost like what do you do when that person’s no longer there? When if you took walks together, if you had morning coffee together, you know, so many of our behaviors are adjusted around who we’re with, who we’re spending our time with.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. And and it’s so it’s so spot on. And that’s why I specialized in widows, and so many people say to me, why not men? Well, I’m not a man.
I know what I I know what I went through. Men grieve differently. Yes, I can help you, but you know, it’s not it’s I have helped men. I have helped people that have lost a child. But for a widow, that’s my journey. So I can help you. I know what I went through and I know what it takes. And like you said, you know, you you said it’s the little things. It’s like, Martin used to bring me a cup of coffee in bed every morning. He’d get up, he’d make coffee. And suddenly, it wasn’t there. And you’re lying in bed and you’re going, oh, well, suppose I have to make my own coffee.
Victoria Volk: What I wouldn’t give for a cup of coffee.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s it’s not It’s not the big things, and this is why I say it’s the most misunderstood grief. It’s losing a spasm. Because it’s not the big things.
It’s the little things. I remember I was outside with the pool and I had to bend down and I had to get into the the basket to clean it all out. Now, that was the job. That was the pool was his job. I didn’t worry about that. And, of course, the basket got stuck and I couldn’t get it out. And I remember just yelling up at the sky and saying, I wonder if you die. Why did you do this to me? Now I’ve got to do what you did. And it’s not an anger that you’re angry with them. It’s frustration. You know, the the fast stages of grief you go through anger. No. You’re going through frustrated. You’re just to get I’ve got to do this now myself. So you gotta learn new skills. You gotta take on the mowing and stuff that that he used to do. Even taking out the garbage, looking things like it.
Victoria Volk: So many of the widows that I’ve spoken with too, didn’t weren’t involved with the finances. That’s huge. So when their spouse left, they had or passed away, or they had no clue. Yeah. And that’s very overwhelming, I imagine.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. That is huge. A lot of my clients are always lucky in that I was in my previous life. I was a bookkeeper tax agent. Mhmm. So Martin and I had our own business for years and years and years and then he started working from home and I started working from home. So we were just, you know, floating along, getting on And the gift in that is that when he died, I just carried on with the finances because I handled all the finance
Victoria Volk: That’s a huge stressor that you yeah. That’s a huge stressor. But even still, you still have all the other the significant others or spouses accounts and retirement and social media and any advice for those types of things, like those logistical type things? Like, I mean, I just I mean, I don’t know. You just gotta do it, but
Denise Dielwart: First thing is to not get overwhelmed. You said, you know, when when when your spouse dies, Suddenly, the bank is on new. Okay. Well, we wanna freeze this and we wanna do this and you can’t do this and you can’t do that because they’re not there and and my husband Martin didn’t have a will because we were we were in the process of setting all of that up, so he died without a will. So for me, I took the path of least resistance. I told the least people possible until I moved friends and moved money and did stuff. Because I knew that the men and us that as that the bank got wind of it. They would have just freeze clothes and everything. You know, even even to his frequent flyer points, he’s on on his credit card, I knew that they would be taken away. So I started transferring them over to me. So it’s really thinking outside of the box when it’s not crumbling and it’s not getting overwhelmed. Because it’s just it’s just fun. And then I guess with my bookkeeping background, I knew how to think practically, okay, and logically, okay, what do I have to do here? What do I have to do there? A lot of my clients are help, a lot of my clients walk through that maze because it is a maze. And if you’ve never had to worry about finances before, if you’ve never had to or about paying up an electricity bill, for example, because that was all taken care of and to be suddenly thrust into this whole world of finances. It’s overwhelming. And that’s where a lot of willows get stuck.
Victoria Volk: It sounds like to me, like, there’s an opportunity there for you to create some sort of course for within your community. Yeah. You know? Maybe to put on your website or something to help people kind of, you know, you can’t the saying has been, like, on the forefront of my mind lately just because of a big project I’ve been working on, but you can’t eat an elephant in one bite. Right? Like, you just throw it little by little. And so I think you know Yeah. To have someone guiding you through. Okay? Just focus on just these two things today. Just get these two things done. Tomorrow’s another day, you know. Yeah.
Denise Dielwart: And then even if you can’t do those, it’s okay. Mhmm. It doesn’t have to be done today. Every often, you know, financial advisers, services, lawyers, they’re all trying to pressure us because they’re on their timeline. Mhmm. It creates your own timeline. Just if you can’t handle it because remember too, you’ve you’ve got widow’s folk. I didn’t know there was such a thing as widow’s folk. Was that, you know, until I actually went through it myself. My kids thought, yeah, I was I think my daughter said to me, mom, you’ve told us that already. You’ve said that. And I said when? She said about five minutes ago, she said she said to me, I think you’re getting Alzheimer’s. You’re losing your mind. I lost my car keys for about three months. Three months. I lost I was using my spare keys. I was still bookkeeping it. I was just after Martin passed away and I had to go and see a client and I would all dressed up and had my laptop and everything and now look to me It’s in our booth. We had a parrot, a pink and gray parrot, and I was like, oh, it’s gonna be a hot hot day in the ninety degree day today. I better leave some water for him. So I filled up his water bill, checked his food, second bite to him, and Well, my keys. You didn’t find my keys. My sunglasses and my keys. And I looked and I looked and I was getting later and later and later and I can’t find my keys. So I mentioned I’ve grabbed the spiky and I was like, I have to take the spiky and go. See this client? Okay, Becca. I wonder what happened to my kids. Anyway, I got this back. He didn’t think about it. In about three months later, I was watching the TV. And on top of the TV were my kids and my sunglasses.
Victoria Volk: And that’s what happens when But it’s normal.
Denise Dielwart: It is normal. It is normal. So for people to go, what? I’m losing my mind. No.
You’re not. It’s just your your body’s way of protecting you. And that’s why in the initial stages, there’s so much paperwork to be done especially in a widows case. There’s so much paperwork to be done. There’s the there’s the there’s the there will you know, there’s the kids that might be fighting about. Why didn’t this one leave me that? And that one leave me that. And and in blender, you know, I’ve had ladies and that I’ve got a blended family. So it could be the second marriage. So the kids from the first marriage don’t want her to have anything. I’ve had Widows and the client Widows clients that that that the kids have kicked her out of the house that she’s been in for twenty years. Wow. And that’s another brief and another layer in itself. Yeah. Then there’s the other the other scenarios where and it’s it’s I didn’t realize how common it was. Until I started this work, is that the the woman finds out after her husband dies, that he’s been having a face. So it’s the betrayal that they’ve got to deal with, but they’ve got nobody to yell and scream at and argue with about it because he’s gone.
Victoria Volk: What do you do with all of those emotions and feelings and Mhmm.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah? Yeah. So it it’s that’s that’s why I go back to it. It’s the most misunderstood because there’s a lot of a lot very often, there’s a lot of skeletons in in the cupboard because Nobody really wants to mention them. They find all the stuff out about their husband when he dies. They might find that that that he you know, it might not be an affair, but when they’re doing the the estate and winding everything up, all of a sudden, he’s got a loan here and he’s got a loan there and especially if they haven’t been involved in the finances. So it’s messy. It’s really messy. And if they don’t have the right support, and they’re just going to see a talk therapist, and they’re gonna just talk about how you’re feeling, Nothing’s gonna change. Howard
Victoria Volk: Bauchner: And that’s what I’ve found too in a lot of support groups, you know, women you know widows or parents who lost children or doesn’t matter the the context of the support group, but that’s what you’re doing. You’re going to the circle of people. Yes, you’re connecting with other people with similar losses, which is great. But at the same time, you’re going to listen to other people’s story again and again and again and you’re gonna be telling your story again and again and again and there’s no action taken and you leave feeling maybe a little better for an hour, but, you know, those people, you say goodbye and a couple days later, you’re back to where you were. Until the next meeting, you know? It’s it’s like the it’s a pacifier, really. It is tough to make an action.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve got a beautiful part of mine. Went to griefshare five times. And because she’s such a good client of mine, I eventually sit to her and says, what didn’t you understand the first time? And she laughed. She said to me, you know, looking back now. I thought that maybe, if I go this time, it could be different. I maybe I missed something. I said, you went five times because it doesn’t work.
Victoria Volk: Well, and think about your your state of mind when you’re going.
Denise Dielwart: You think you’re going crazy. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And so maybe there’s a little bit of comfort that you’re feeling in being in circle with other people who also feel like they’re going a little crazy yet
Denise Dielwart: at the same time,
Victoria Volk: nobody’s progressing forward.
Denise Dielwart: No.
Victoria Volk: Not an environment conducive of healing, to me, in my opinion.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Then me too. In my opinion too, and that’s why, you know, I I became a life coach after Martin died. Now, I became a life coach because remember I was in the bookkeeping world. So I thought, well, I become a life coach to heal myself. I’ll get all the tools, and then I can become a business coach. That was my that was my dream, that was my path forward. Never in my water streams that I think I would be be working with Widows and Grief. That just was not a moderator until it was. It was like, okay. So many people says, you’ve gotta work with buddhist. And as you heal so quickly, you’ve gotta, you know, you’ve gotta you’ve gotta share. You’ve gotta do this work. And I I really rejected it. No. No. No. No. No. No. Until I eventually said, you know what? If I meant to work with Muuto, universe God, show me the way. And it all unfolded. And that’s that’s where I’m where I am today.
Victoria Volk: So what did that action look like for
Denise Dielwart: you? So the first thing I did was open up. There was a Facebook group. And just open up. Because, you know, I’m sitting here in Australia, and I’m thinking, I wanna work around the world. I don’t wanna just be working in one on one come to my office, and I’ll I’ll help you. And I remember sitting there at the front of my computer and I was early on before before any Facebook groups were what they are now. I thought, okay. I started Facebook group and it was me and another friend of mine in South Africa. It was two of us. She had just lost her who who husband, who was a school friend of my husband. So there was quite a tight knit bond there. And I was just heard me. In script and I thought, okay. So I just started posting in the group and the group started growing. And that’s how I started. I started my program. I re reversed engineered how I healed myself, and that’s in the flow method. And I created the flow method. And the flow method is an acronym for feel, let go, overcome, and become whole. Because we have to feel our emotions. And that was the the what what the coaching learning to become a a a coach, a life coach was was I learned how to feel. Those in deeper thin. And they added bonuses that I had I had people practicing on me and I was practicing on other people.
Victoria Volk: So what does that look like?
Denise Dielwart: So we used to have our triads. We used to have, you know, to share stories, but it was always that your story. Now let’s get to the what what’s beneath that? And that’s the key to to grief because grief is not I remember my my teacher or my instructor, Sharon, saying at the time, you cannot coach grief. And I I said, why don’t you coach grief? And now I have coaching grief for all these years. And now teaching it because I’ve got my academy as well, the academy of transformational grief coaching. Grief is a different way did you approach people to life coaching? As a life coach, people come to you or you see a life coach because you wanna improve your life. You’re really on that on that path. However, When somebody comes to you with in grief, all they wanna do is get better. They’re unaware nine times out of ten, not always, but nine times out of ten. The unaware of the patterns and the the programming and the beliefs on a subconscious level that’s actually keeping them stuck and keeping them from moving forward. So it’s only when we go beneath the surface. So it’s in layers. It’s like an onion. You’ve got to peel those those layers. Of what he’s keeping you stuck.
Victoria Volk: Well, I would actually challenge the idea too of life coaching because people who go to life coaching, right, they they think that the issue is, well, I’m not good with money or do I get better with money? Or Like, they they think the issue is more superficial. Yeah. And really, their issue is probably grief. On all these emotional communications that have had nowhere to go because we all crave something.
And
Denise Dielwart: Oh, wow.
Victoria Volk: Is cumulative and it’s cumulatively negative. And if you were a child and you had to move a lot, you didn’t have a lot of friends or your parents divorced when you were young, pets that died, trauma that happened, like, so much of the things that people are going to see a life coach for, they should probably actually be seen someone like you or me for. To be honest, spot on.
Denise Dielwart: Spot on. Because, you know, even a boyfriend break up,
Victoria Volk: Yes. It all stacks up.
Denise Dielwart: You know, this unresolved trauma beneath the surface and That’s why we’ve got to feel. We’ve got to feel. But humanity is we don’t want to feel because it’s too painful to feel. So we put on a mask. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m okay. I’m fine. How was your day? And then people said, oh, you’re so strong? How are you coping? Because then we can let Ghana. I’ve had so many so many of my clients said, but I don’t wanna let go. I don’t wanna let go of of of anything. I wanna just hold on. But it’s not what we’re letting go of. We didn’t go of the pain. You didn’t go of those emotions. You’re not letting go of the person. You’re not letting go of the of of the love that you shared.
You didn’t go of that pain in the heartache.
Victoria Volk: So in your method, is it like a somatic? Experience or what does that look like?
Denise Dielwart: So to let go is where we start digging digging deeply. So the feeling part is this if you’re feeling your emotions. And it’s always You can’t We can’t feel those emotions on our own. The minute we start feeling any emotion, like I mentioned earlier, we shut down. We don’t want to go there. So coaching and digging deep and going beneath the surface, I’m feeling that is the feeling. What are you feeling? Really feeling. It’s not just crying. It’s not just sadness. But where is that emotion? What what’s coming up for you? Then the letting go is okay. Let’s start now, going deep. Let’s let go of what you’re feeling. But before we can let go is we I need to we need to go, where is that emotion? What is that? And can you mobilize because very often we can’t verbalize these emotions. As an example, they might say a client might say, Well, I’m feeling really lonely and isolated. And that’s normal. That is totally normal. Okay. But we don’t you know, as I said, well, that’s that’s normal. Do you feel it it’s a personal it’s okay. Where are you feeling lonely and isolated? And why and we start digging and going deep down. Until they can visualize that emotion and they can feel that emotion and they can say, this is what I’m now letting go. And that’s a process that we go through. So and then you can overcome because now you know what you’re letting go of. And that’s when you become whole. So that’s the whole. I mean, it sounds so simple and easy to do, but it’s not.
Victoria Volk: So how long does that process that you take people through?
Denise Dielwart: As long as it takes. Because sometimes because sometimes sometimes this delayed grief, sometimes there’s some very deep traumatic childhood memories that come up. Because that all plays into the letting go and and the moving forward. Because that sits on a subconscious level. That’s on a subconscious level that we’re not even aware of. And it’s only when we do that deep inner work, but we have somebody walking with us to do that. Because we can only let go of what we know what to let go of and we only know what we know. More than that, we don’t know. So when you work with somebody and what how I help my clients is let’s I take a helicopter view. And I see the blind spots that they don’t see.
And walk them through that.
Victoria Volk: So how would you describe yourself before May fourth two thousand nine. How you would describe yourself today?
Denise Dielwart: Before Martin passed away, I was I wanted to say a good little wife. That’s everywhere I can put it. I Martin and I had a business together, but it was his business. I worked in a and feel free because he was my husband, you know, after all, you’ve got a bill there for your husband. Never got paid for a bill. She used to lie lie about that because You’re my wife. Why would I pay you? You know, that that’s sort of that sort of bantha that we used to have. And I accepted that because it was our it was our business, but It wasn’t. It was his business that I worked in. I was a people pleaser. I wanted to keep the peace. I put myself last. I often often say, you know, for a lot of my my my my woodwork clients that have now become woodwork friends, over the years that we’ve worked together. There’s one lady in particular, and she said to me one day. She said, if Martin had to come through the door, what would you do? I said he’d run away. You wouldn’t wanna be with with the Denise issues now because I wouldn’t put up with the stuff that I put up with in my marriage. And I’m not saying that my marriage was bad. I was a different person than to what I am now. And so of so many of my clients as well because they’re reimagining their life. They’re reimagining who they are. They see the potential. They’re finding themselves. And that’s the key is we can’t stay that married with our. Because that’s a label. Mhmm. I’m a widow. And do you
Victoria Volk: do you feel too that a lot of women fine. They want to stay in that box because of the unknown of of changing. And then what’ll what’ll happen if I do reinvent myself
Denise Dielwart: Yes.
Victoria Volk: Or just change. Right? Like, we are so accustomed to avoiding change. We hate change. We avoid it like the plague because there’s so many unknowns that come with it. And so do you feel like in a lot of the work that you do with people, like women in particular widows? That they’re afraid to rock the boat of their lives. Like, because I have seen so many that once they decide to choose that from themselves and just surrender to whatever it is, that is wanting to come out of them as a result of loss they lose friendships, they lose connections with people, and that’s more loss.
Denise Dielwart: That’s right. And that’s why you need help. You need a process. You need something. Because the minute you start, on your own inner journey and you start rediscovering who you are. Your old life dies. It really does. And there’s the fear. Gotta let go of that imagined life that you were going to have. And in that life is all your friends. It’s all the friends that you had together. You’re together friends. And guess what happens? Is they disappear? They run away. I don’t know where they are, where they go, and they just disappear. And that’s the hardest thing for a widow to accept is the fact that What happened to Mary and John? We used to play Bridgette every Friday night and suddenly they’re not there anymore.
Victoria Volk: Or they’re not you know, the widow isn’t invited.
Denise Dielwart: I’m not invited. Oh, look, they’re all awake. They’re all awake to they’re all awake camping. And I wasn’t invited to go along. But we were just to go camping together.
Why wasn’t I invited? And that’s hurtful. But it’s normal. We have to have the tools to be able to deal with that. And that is that is mindset. That’s a different way of thinking, a different way of being. It’s reimagining. It’s reinventing. It really is reinventing a lot, and that takes work. It takes courage. Not everybody has the courage to do that,
Victoria Volk: but everybody can find it.
Denise Dielwart: Exactly exactly the visit of Oz. I mean, let’s let’s use the visit of Oz as an example. You know, you had the lion. I don’t know if Carrie, yes, she do. You’ve just got to say yes to yourself. You’ve just got to say yes, I can do this. I’m gonna reach out for help. I can do this. And and along the way, and so many of, you know, of my clients over the years have gone, oh, as soon as I’ve fallen down, I’ve fallen backwards. And, yes, you do because it’s never just a straight line up. So you start at the bottom and you start going up and then you might fall down a little bit, but you’re falling down not to the level that you were at. You’re falling down at a higher level, so it’s like waves. You’re going up and going up and going up and you never arrive there. You always grow as having a growth mindset being able to grow and go to the next level, in your own personal growth, your own personal development. Because the grief and your story is just that. It’s what brought you to this point in your life. Weighing you gonna what are you gonna do about that? What are you gonna do about it? Because we’ve got choices. We can stay where we are and we can feed the victim and I hate using the word victim, but it is. I was a victim for a while. Me, told me, my husband died. And so I’ll put my big girl panties on and said Denise, hang on. You got a whole life ahead of you. Do I miss him? I still miss him. It’s fifteen years later. I just get angry with him. I still get angry with him, and I have to do things. I was like, oh my God, you know? So much easier when you were here. But that’s not my life anymore.
Victoria Volk: I think the one of the things that community are being in community of people who are on the same mission, right, of growing. And evolving and reinventing themselves. One of the things that I think comes out of that too is you’re in community with other people who have different problems than you. And so it’s like, you know, if we think about our problems, it’s like and then we hear somebody else’s, it’s like, And I I’ve reminded myself of this so many times, and it’s helpful. At the end of the day, I would sure take my problems home before I want theirs. Because there’s always somebody who doesn’t it’s not to say they have it worse than you. But it’s like if you can think of yourself, put yourself in their shoes. Yeah. You’re healthy? Yes, you’re a widow. But if you’re healthy, and this other person now has a chronic illness. Maybe they even had cancer themselves and their spouse died. I bet you you would take your problems home with you instead of theirs.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Even financials, some of those are left with with nothing. Some of those are left with nothing. And it’s so hard. I have to I find it really hard. To to say to these ladies that it’s okay. It’s just money. You can regardless of your age, you can do something. You can create an income for yourself. So it really breaks my heart and I see this woman with so much potential. So much potential, and they just fold and say, well, I can’t do anything. I’m I’m gonna live on benefits for the rest of my life, and I and I and I’m living with my son in his basement. I’ve got a client that that started she was living in the basement of her daughter’s boyfriend. So her daughter was living as a boyfriend. She was living in the basement when she’s been when we started working together. And she’s now bought her own house. Because she put a big old panties on we worked together and and we worked through, What was keeping her stuck in the basement? And to not focus on the basement, but focus on getting a job, what can she do? We would employ her. And as it turns out, she loves crafts. She loves sewing. She loves all that. So she’s working at the local casino. In the uniform department and she laughs it. She’s doing all the sign repairs and the thought that she laughs it. But that enabled her to buy her own house, which she never saw living in a basement.
Victoria Volk: And on the flip side of that, you could have all the money in the world. Mhmm. And you could have four, five children, three children, or however many children, or b, have a blended family, and everybody’s fighting, and you have all of that stress and hurting. Yeah. And then your kids hate you because you didn’t give them what they wanted. They aren’t speaking to you anymore. I mean, this is a thing when I’m talking about other people’s problems. It’s like we would always take our own for the most part.
Denise Dielwart: Always always always Yeah. Always. And, you know, our story is unique to us. Your story, your grief journey is unique to you. There’s no cookie cutter way of doing it. You can’t say, well, just do this and, you know, you know, like the five stages of grief, goodness me. Go through the stage then and say, now you’re over here. No, grief is messy. It’s it’s it’s all over the place. You can’t just say, well, oh, okay.
You’re in the anger stage now?
Victoria Volk: There actually are no stages of grief. I know. I know.
Denise Dielwart: There are no stages of grief. That’s what I’m saying. Miss
Victoria Volk: I actually had Elizabeth Keebler Ross. Ross’ son, Ken Ross, on my podcast.
Denise Dielwart: Oh, really? Yes.
Victoria Volk: And we talked about that. And, you know, her work was about people who have been diagnosed with a terminal illness.
Denise Dielwart: Like, sure.
Victoria Volk: It was, you know, but it is in Paul culture, like
Denise Dielwart: It’s the golden I’m here. I am in Australia, and everybody it’s the golden standard for grievance. She wrote her dad book on on deaf and dying in the sixties. And everybody goes, oh, you bet, you know, it’s the five stages of treatment. I’ve even heard people refer to going through COVID. It’s like the five stages of grief. And I just oh my goodness. Oh, I I was on a podcast or something and somebody said, yeah, you know, briefly screaming in in in in in COVID and, you know, the blah blah blah. I forget what it was, but all I remember them saying is, It’s like we’re going through the five stages of Greece. You know, we’re getting angry and we’re getting Wow. Have misunderstood. That is because they’re you keep the they are no fast. They’re honest edges. I mean, if you Google the fast stages of grief. She can even come up with a seven stages of grief.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. If Like I said, it’s I think it’s it’s something that has really propelled her work, which is wonderful because her work was so much more than just the research that
Denise Dielwart: she has. Like,
Victoria Volk: her life, she led an incredible life, and I’m not discounting anything that she did and remarkable. I mean, I the stories of working with you know, in the child the work that she did with children, cancer patients. And she was a trendsetter. She was a trailblazer. And I think that’s what it is. I think she kinda blazes the trail of the deep emotional impact of big change
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Loss of health, cancer diagnosis. Right? Like and, yes, you’re gonna feel those things, but Yeah. And I think, you know, society, I think, is really just like, it gave them something to latch on to and run with, and I think that’s kind of what happened. And and they have trademarked it because, of course, it’s their business too.
Right? Like
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. It’s
Victoria Volk: she has an empire of her own and and a legacy that is kind of been built with the five stages of grief. I’ll actually link to Ken Ross’s episode in your
Denise Dielwart: Oh, that’d be great. Yeah. It’d be great. Because, you know, When she when she wrote the fast edges of grief, it was for people that were diagnosed with an illness. Mhmm. And, yes, you do go through all of that. The disbelief, the anger that eventually get to acceptance. But when you actually die when you when you’ve lost somebody, I don’t think you ever acceptance is a very strong word. You never accept the fact that they’re gone or that they’ve died. Don’t even learn to live with such. You heal yourself. You grow yourself. And you you have them been walking next to you all the time. They’re always there.
Victoria Volk: I think your point of perspective of it and your point of view and how you look at it changes. Totally. And that’s when you know that you’ve done some healing. When you can look at it differently.
Denise Dielwart: And you’re not crying when you think about them. You’re not crying when at birthdays. You’re not crying at the anniversaries. You’re actually laughing. You know that you’ve helped.
Mhmm. And you’re looking back with love and not with pain.
Victoria Volk: And it’s possible. Talking about before. We serve
Denise Dielwart: Absolutely. Possible. Yes. It is so possible.
Victoria Volk: It’s not like a cut, you know, that you just cover with a band aid and, you know, and it’s gonna it’s eventually, it’s gonna start oozing again, which it could. Right? Like, it’s a you know, that wound can be opened again. And again, because life is gonna continue to life.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: You’re always gonna have another heartache. Always. What’s your rebound? What’s your bounce back?
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: No. It’s that’s what improves when you work on yourself.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. It’s in a work. It is self it’s working on yourself. It’s it’s having and having a a growth mindset. And you know, oh, you got a growth mindset.
But a growth mindset, there’s two months that you can either have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. When you’ve got a growth mindset, and I would say both you and I have got a growth mindset because it’s it’s not we don’t just go but that’s who I am and that’s what I do. That’s having a fixed mindset. It’s just what it is. I’m a widow.
I’ve lost my child, whatever whatever and and having that stuck identity. Now here’s the thing. When we identify as let’s take a widow, for example, I’m a widow. You’ve just boxed yourself into that into that identity. And why is it so easy to do after we lose our husbands is because we lose our identity. We’re not our wife anymore. Oh, but that’s right. I’m a widow now, so we put the widow head on. And with that comes a lot of I I call it the puppy dog look. When people go, oh, I’m so sorry and they get this puppy dog look. Oh, I didn’t realize you were, were you? I’m still getting it fifteen years later. Yeah. I’ve had a a I’ve built a house recently and I had a pool put in and all the rest of them. All the trades people, the tradesman, came. Yeah. The guys that came. We’d say, oh, you know, did you wanna run it by your husband first or, you know, I No. No. I don’t have a husband. Oh, you do most. No. My mother. Oh, I’m so sorry. Oh, I didn’t know. Well, of course, you didn’t know. You don’t you don’t know who I am. Mhmm. But even now, you get that because the word a widow has got these darker energies and connotations around it that you’re a widow and that you need to grieve for the rest of your life. It wasn’t long ago when women were wearing black. They had to wear black for, like, twelve months or something. Because they were in mourning. There’s only a widow. So it wasn’t the it was like what maybe a hundred years ago? Seventy five or a hundred years ago? If you lost your husband, you dressed in black. Black. Stockings are black. You were just in black as she wore in morning.
Victoria Volk: Who would love to go back in time and just see how because I I do think that the ancestors of the past knew how to grieve better than typically we do.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. They gave themselves permission to feel. They’re up to down as society and felt that they could have fought to do that. In today’s world, we can’t do that.
Victoria Volk: Yeah. To put the suit right back on after two weeks, get it there.
Denise Dielwart: March Older adults. Older adults. Older adults.
Victoria Volk: And you might get ten days of bereavement time? You just might.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. If you’re lucky. If you’re lucky. And then it’s like, oh, why aren’t you coming into work today? Or because I’m No. No. Well, you’re we’re even times over. Mhmm. No. I’ve had I’ve had wood outside of head warnings after the ten days of bereavement time that they’re going to lose their job. And that’s it’s why a lot of them do the work because they know that they have to keep their work. They have to keep the income coming in. And that’s the main reason why why they they they wanna move forward. And then they realize that when we start really get and they get to all the other stuff that’s beneath that. And suddenly suddenly, they’re starting businesses and they’re doing other things that they never thought all grand. Doing? Yeah. We can
Victoria Volk: see what’s possible for ourselves when we are just continue to wear the veil of grief over our faces.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. We can’t. We can’t. And it’s okay to wear that veil for a while. But don’t unpack and lovely. When we unpack and lift it, that we that we we take that identity on, we identify as that person.
Victoria Volk: So what is your grief taught you? It’s told me that this is
Denise Dielwart: a gift in grief, an absolute gift. And what is that gift? The gift is ourselves. It’s our own personal healing. It’s our own finding and rediscovering who we are. It’s also told me to be as a widow, talking as a widow, it’s taught me to be independent, but not that independent that I don’t ask for help. That is such a hard thing for for us woman to do is to ask somebody to help us because we say you say our husband’s doing stuff. That we didn’t have to ask for. So it’s taught me to actually put my hand up and say I need help. Or pay somebody to do it for you. Don’t try and do it on your own. So it’s taught me to not be that strong person that just salches on. And that was something that in my own healing journey, I It was a limiting belief that I didn’t even know that I had. It was a deep seated belief. I’m an only child, so I’ve got no siblings. I did ballet’s child and my mother and my father boss used to say, you know, practice makes perfect. So just keep practicing practice packs perfect. And then, of course, if I didn’t get it quite right or, you know, I did in a step foot or something and I didn’t get what I wanted to do, I then would set your soldier on. It’s okay. Remember practice max post perfect just soldier on? It sounds innocent, doesn’t it this mom encouraging me. But it was only when I went in deep within myself. Then I mean, why do I push myself so much? Why does everything have to be just right? And then I was like, my arm moment goes, oh my god. I’m still that little girl practicing to be perfect and soldiering on. That’s the deep inner work. And that’s what keeps us stuck in our grief. It keeps us stuck in our life because it’s not just the grief. The grief is grief is grief is grief is packed on on, you know, I lost my father.
I lost my mother. But those griefs, I didn’t even allow myself to grief. There’s losses. I was out
Victoria Volk: in the past.
Denise Dielwart: I was my father died a week before my eighteenth birthday. He was forty seven. Wow. He had a he had a massive stroke. So, grieved him a bit. Everybody was saying, oh, he’s so young and I’m going, what? He’s forty seven. He’s old. It’s sort of a bad one. I’m like, wow. He was so young. But so I lost lost my my father and then I lost my mother young as well. But I still had my family intact. I had Mark and I had the kids. Yes.
I miss them. Yes. They were my parents. But somehow, I just didn’t feel it until mark and god, and then that was the god. Wow. Because it’s a different loss.
Victoria Volk: Well, and that’s what happens with a a deep loss is that it brings up everything before it.
Denise Dielwart: I know. It’s I I always say it’s grief is like a magnifying glass. Just boom. This is your life. And if we don’t address what’s coming up for us, we manifest disease disease. We manifest illness. I had a beautiful client who found out after her husband passed away that that he had an affair, that he was having an affair. And that all the money that she thought she had, he had spent on this other woman. She had four thousand dollars and that was she was a school teacher she had four thousand dollars and that was from her salary. That was it. But her her drive to heal and to do it quickly, was that she had breast cancer that was in remission. And she knew that if she went down that rabbit hole of stress and the grief and everything that that that comes with it is a chance that your breast cancer will come back. Plus, she was so angry with him. She wanted to kill him, although he was already dead. I remember his name to me. He wasn’t dead. I would have killed him. I mean, laugh about that man, but you know, it it it’s it’s against that the betrayal and not being able to address that. She was, what, three months into her grief January when we started working. Now, four weeks, four weeks when we started working together. And that’s early. That’s really early.
Victoria Volk: But it’s never too soon and it’s
Denise Dielwart: It’s never too soon. And this is what, you know, I have some people to isn’t too soon? Never too soon. Never too soon
Victoria Volk: or too late. No. Yeah.
Denise Dielwart: On the other spectrum, I’ve got a head of beautiful lady. Those fifteen years. She had seen I think she had about four or five therapists, she even had a psychiatrist, She was getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And within the first week of us working together, she went, oh my goodness. I’m not crying anymore. She was still crying after fifteen years. And that’s because we get stuck into a kitten. We have to break those patterns and we can’t break those patterns on our own if we don’t know how. Because they said,
Victoria Volk: you did that through your life coaching certification, like, as you were going through life coaching, Erin, that’s what you would. Okay.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. So I’m an NLP practitioner as well. So is there a lot of NLP which is neuro linguistic programming? So a lot of NLP work that I do, mhmm, is my clients as well because we’ve got a Brexit. We’ve got a we’ve got a get them to think differently.
Help to help these ladies to actually see themselves in a different way. We need to break the neural pathways. We’ve just scratched the record because it’s been me start going back and going back and going back over the same old thing. Oh, and that’s our talk therapy doesn’t work. Because when we repeat and repeat and repeat, we are building that neural pathway stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger. We have to break that neural pathway. Let’s let’s say electrical pathway in our brains. We have to bracket and we have to grow and start another one.
Victoria Volk: And it’s possible.
Denise Dielwart: It’s possible. It is new knowledge. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Nobody else. New app.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just doing some it’s, you know, everybody that’s listening today, that’s here, and I know for you and for me, it’s one decision. We are ever only one decision away of a new life. Not a hundred decisions, not overwhelming decisions. It’s one decision.
Victoria Volk: Lay in decay or get up and reinvent yourself.
Denise Dielwart: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Those are the choices.
Denise Dielwart: Yes? Yep. And it’s it’s a choice. You know, we have choices we choose. We choose what what Am I gonna get out of bed today? Am I gonna stay in bed? And if that’s your if that’s your one choice you do, what are you gonna choose?
Victoria Volk: And what’s the cost? What is it costing you not? Yep. So put yourself first in this way.
Denise Dielwart: Yep.
Victoria Volk: Better questions. We have to ask yourselves better questions.
Denise Dielwart: Better questions and and and what is it? You know, when I say to to when I start working, this this this is my latest assignment, What is it costing you? And I’m so glad you brought up the cost because that’s something that nobody thinks of. We only think of cost in a monetary sense, dollar sense, but there’s such a massive cost to your health, to your relationships, to your whole life, everything. If we’re not if you’re not functioning properly, what is the cost? What is the costing you? In your in in your relationship with your with your family, your friends and family. What’s the cost?
Victoria Volk: Next. Absolutely. We’re on the same mission, my friend.
Denise Dielwart: Yes. It’s so good. You see you all?
Victoria Volk: Yes. Where can people find you if they’d love to connect with you and learn more?
Denise Dielwart: So I have my website, which I think is the best place. It’s flow grief academy dot com. And that’s where, you know, they can book a call with me. There’s a link there if they wanna have a check to book a call with me. I offer a free Sometimes it’s sixty minutes, sometimes it’s forty five minutes, sometimes it’s five minutes depending all the way. But just a free breaks recall, grief breaks recall. Just to talk about where where you are in your journey right now. What’s what’s keeping you stuck? Yeah. And if I can help you, I can help you if I can’t. We spent a good forty five minutes and an hour together. And you’ll walk away with tools, on on in in an awareness of of where you are in your journey.
Victoria Volk: And you have the podcast?
Denise Dielwart: And I have my podcast. Brief Unlocked. Yes. I have my podcast. And, yeah, I’ve also got my group. I’ve got a a Facebook group as well. All the links are on my website. That’s why I said my website is about the best to sort of to land there and have a look and to have a feel around there and click and and and so on. And of course, there’s also the academy. So for those that that feel that they want to learn how to become a grief coach, I’ve now got the academy of transformational brief coaching. So that’s where you learn all the NLP techniques, you learn how to talk, you learn how, you learn the flow method.
Victoria Volk: Wonderful. And I will put a link to your website in the show notes and to the Can Ross episode that I mentioned. And to Facebook group too, I’ll put that in the show notes as well.
Denise Dielwart: That will be great. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria Volk: Alright. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story, Denise, and for being my guest today. And for this wonderful conversation, I I’m always happy to have people on who are on the same mission as myself. To bring awareness to grief. And that’s not just about death, but all these other things that we experience in our lives too that, you know, through the different client examples that you shared. So thank you so much for your time today. Howard Bauchner:
Denise Dielwart: Yeah, you’re so welcome. And it’s it’s such a point that you said, it’s not about grief. It’s
Victoria Volk: about life.
Denise Dielwart: Life is going to life. And we’re still alive. So it’s about life. It’s about living
Victoria Volk: and learning tools to make it the best that we can speak and then in the time that we are given.
Denise Dielwart: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you so much for having me on. It’s been absolutely kind of like to for the for the podcast to come out and and share it with my group as well. So because like you said, it’s the awareness of of We can heal and you can heal and move forward.
Victoria Volk: Absolutely. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Child Loss, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Widowhood |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Embracing Grief with Grace: Angie Hanson’s Journey from Loss to Entrepreneurship
Grief is an unwelcome visitor that arrives at the doorsteps of our lives, often unannounced and always undesired. For some, like Angie Hanson, grief has knocked not once but multiple times, bringing along profound loss and heartache. Yet in the face of such adversity, Angie has managed to forge a path that not only honors her lost loved ones but also provides solace to others navigating their own journeys through mourning.
Angie’s story is one of remarkable resilience—a testament to the human spirit’s ability to endure and transform suffering into something meaningful. Her experiences have led her down a road less traveled: from working in banking and a taffy store learning about online business ventures, she now runs Butterflies and Halos—a greeting card company designed for those who are grieving—and co-hosts “From Loss to Light,” a podcast dedicated to sharing stories of hope after loss.
The Birth of Butterflies and Halos
The concept behind Butterflies and Halos was born from Angie’s realization that typical sympathy cards didn’t quite capture the ongoing support needed by those in mourning. After experiencing personal losses—the deaths of her toddler son, husband, brother Seth (who succumbed to a brain tumor), sister-in-law Brooke (who passed away due to alcoholism)—Angie recognized how vital it is for people in grief not just be acknowledged initially but supported throughout their entire grieving process.
Her greeting card venture offers messages that resonate more genuinely with what it means truly mourn—sometimes heartfelt; other times humorous because laughter can indeed be medicine even amidst sorrow. It challenges industry norms by advocating for acknowledgment beyond traditional timelines set by society.
From Banking To Empathy
Before tragedy reshaped her life trajectory, Angie had built a career within the banking sector—an industry known more for transactions than emotional connections. However, when faced with devastating losses consecutively—each leaving its unique scar on her heart—she pivoted towards endeavors imbued with deeper meaning centered around family values especially inspired by her daughter Gracie’s strength during tough times.
Gracie herself stands as an example of overcoming adversity; graduating college pursuing kinesiology aiming help others regain physical abilities reflects both mother-daughter duo’s dedication helping heal pain whether emotional or physical form.
Podcasting Through Pain
Together with Michelle another widow friend they started “From Loss Light” podcast explore rediscovery light after different kinds loss death divorce addiction among others becoming inspirational platform listeners find camaraderie shared experiences resilience against odds journey back towards hopefulness again book titled Chapters Resilient Heart encapsulates this narrative perfectly scheduled release May 2024 already available pre-order showcasing power storytelling healing process itself inspiration drawn trip Costa Rica current husband where realized strength lies opening up new chapters despite past closures inflicted upon us fate itself sometimes cruelly so yet never defining entirety our existence if we choose otherwise which exactly did choosing honor memories actions rather than succumbing despair alone powerful choice indeed one many could learn emulate difficult circumstances face daily basis across globe irrespective culture creed color socio-economic status universal language understood all – love remembrance perseverance face adversities life throws way time again without fail relentless pursuit happiness joy may seem elusive moments darkness eventually finds way back hearts willing open them wide enough let light shine through cracks created wounds old healed completely maybe never will entirely point isn’t forget move forward remember carry legacy forward too part ourselves forever changed encounter mortality close quarters intimately familiar contours shape absence leaves behind tangible void filled nothing else same measure value once held dear still holds true today tomorrow eternity long lasts memory alive us keeps going matter what comes next chapter waiting written pen hand ready ink flow freely page blank canvas awaits masterpiece creation patiently biding time until muse strikes chord resonates soul deeply felt core being essence captured words spoken aloud silence contemplation alike either case message clear loud unleash heart unleashing life itself fullest potential reached embraced grace given opportunity do so every single day blessed breathe air earth under feet sun sky above reminder precious gift given cherish treasure always end days come sooner later expected unexpected alike preparedness key unlocking doors future possibilities endless horizon stretches vast expanse imagination limit setting sail unknown adventures await discovery newfound purpose passion ignited flame rekindled ashes past experiences fuel fire burning bright beacon guiding ships night safe harbor refuge stormy seas tumultuous world live thrive survive testify beauty remains midst chaos confusion reign supreme ultimate victory claimed name lived well loved hard laughed often cried tears sadness turned drops wisdom gained perspective shifted priorities realigned accordance true calling found voice heard afar near touched souls kindred spirits bonded together common cause celebrate triumph over tragedy song sung chorus angels watching overhead smiling approvingly deeds done good earth reward heaven promised land dreams reality merge seamless tapestry woven threads golden silver intertwined perfection achieved mastery craft honed skill refined artistry displayed proudly gallery open viewing public private collectors aficionados connoisseurs taste discerning eye detail appreciate finer things offered sale purchase price tag attached worth measured monetary terms sentimental value priceless gem rare exquisite nature behold wonder awe inspire generations come leave lasting impression indelible mark history books annals recorded posterity sake remembering forgotten lest repeat mistakes learned lessons teach children grandchildren importance empathy compassion humanity whole greater sum parts individual contributions collective effort combined synergy effect multiplied exponentially reach far wide deep impact felt ripple waves emanating epicenter event occurred sending shockwaves reverberate echo chambers minds hearts souls awaken dormant senses alert presence moment mindful passage fleeting grasp tightly slip fingers sand hourglass counting seconds minutes hours days weeks months years decades centuries millennia eons epochs span lifetime blink cosmic scale grand scheme universe infinite expanding contracting breathing living entity conscious aware self identity separate distinct interconnected web interwoven strands fabric cosmos stitched seamlessly invisible thread binds together unity harmony balance order chaos juxtaposed side contrast highlight differences similarities paradoxical relationship exists duality dualistic approach understanding complex simplicity elegant design creator creation creature creatures inhabit dwell abide reside home planet third rock sun solar system galaxy Milky Way local group cluster supercluster Laniakea great attractor destination journey ends begins anew cycle rebirth renewal regeneration resurrection phoenix rises ashes anew stronger wiser enlightened illuminated truth knowledge wisdom imparted gifts bestowed upon worthy recipients chosen destiny fulfill prophecy foretold ancient texts scriptures holy sacred profane mundane everyday ordinary extraordinary simultaneously existing parallel dimensions alternate realities quantum mechanics physics laws govern observed phenomena natural supernatural spiritual metaphysical realms exploration curiosity leads discovery invention innovation progress advancement civilization humankind species evolve adapt overcome obstacles challenges trials tribulations tests faith courage determination resolve steadfastness tenacity grit endurance stamina persistence perseverance keep pushing boundaries limits expand horizons broaden perspectives shift paradigms break molds stereotypes labels boxes categorize define restrict confine imprison free liberate emancipate empower enable equip arm tools necessary succeed excel achieve greatness glory honor respect admiration acclaim accolades awards recognition fame fortune wealth material possessions secondary tertiary quaternary priority list topmost concern welfare wellbeing fellow man woman child animal plant mineral element periodic table elements basic building blocks constitute comprise make up everything anything possible impossible dream imagine conceive believe achieve manifest destiny stars align perfect alignment convergence synchronicity serendipity happenstance coincidence luck chance probability statistics odds favor favorable outcome result success victory win triumph conquest achievement accomplishment goal objective aim target bullseye hit mark spot on dead center middle exact precise accuracy precision sharp shooter marksman expert professional amateur novice beginner learner student teacher mentor guide leader follower team player individualist conformist nonconformist rebel revolutionary visionary prophet sage seer oracle mystic shaman healer witch doctor priest priestess cleric monk nun friar brother sister mother father uncle aunt cousin nephew niece grandfather grandmother ancestor descendant lineage heritage inheritance birthright claim stake piece pie share slice cake bread butter meat potatoes substance sustenance nourishment food thought mind body spirit soul triune trinity threefold cord strand rope chain link connection connector joint hinge pivot axis rotation revolution spin turn twist bend curve arch bridge tunnel passageway doorway entrance exit gateway portal dimension realm kingdom domain empire state nation country continent world globe Earth Gaia Terra Mother Nature Father Time Old Man Winter Spring Summer Fall Autumn Seasons Change Constant Variable Fixed Mobile Stationary Moving Dynamic Static Stagnant Fresh New Renewed Revived Restored Healed Whole Complete Integral Essential Fundamental Basic Primary Secondary Tertiary Quaternary Quintessential Ultimate Supreme Paramount Chief Principal Head Leader Captain Commander General Admiral President King Queen Monarch Sovereign Ruler Dictator Tyrant Oppressor Liberator Freedom Fighter Warrior Knight Paladin Champion Defender Protector Guardian Custodian Keeper Watcher Observer Spectator Audience Participant Actor Actress Player Performer Entertainer Artist Artisan Craftsman Craftswoman Tradesman Tradeswoman Worker Laborer Employee Employer Boss Manager Supervisor Director Executive Officer Official Representative Delegate Ambassador Emissary Envoy Agent Broker Dealer Trader Merchant Vendor Supplier Distributor Wholesaler Retailer Customer Client Patron Guest Host Hostess Innkeeper Landlord Landlady Proprietor Owner Possessor Holder Bearer Carrier Transporter Conveyancer Driver Pilot Navigator Guide Scout Pathfinder Trailblazer Pioneer Settler Colonizer Founder Creator Inventor Innovator Designer Architect Engineer Builder Constructor Fabricator Maker Manufacturer Producer Creator Originator Initiator Instigator Agitator Provocateur Troublemaker Peacemaker Mediator Arbitrator Judge Jury Executioner Punisher Avenger Redeemer Savior Messiah Prophet Seer Oracle Mystic Shaman Witch Doctor Priest Priestess Cleric Monk Nun Friar Brother Sister Mother Father Uncle Aunt Cousin Nephew Niece Grandfather Grandmother Ancestor Descendant Lineage Heritage Inheritance Birthright Claim Stake Piece Pie Share Slice Cake Bread Butter Meat Potatoes Substance Sustenance Nourishment Food Thought Mind Body Spirit Soul Triune Trinity Threefold Cord Strand Rope Chain Link Connection Connector Joint Hinge Pivot Axis Rotation Revolution Spin Turn Twist Bend Curve Arch Bridge Tunnel Passageway Doorway Entrance Exit Gateway Portal Dimension Realm Kingdom Domain Empire State Nation Country Continent World Globe Earth Gaia Terra Mother Nature Father Time Old Man Winter Spring Summer Fall Autumn Seasons Change Constant Variable Fixed Mobile Stationary Moving Dynamic Static Stagnant Fresh New Renewed Revived Restored Healed Whole Complete Integral Essential Fundamental Basic Primary Secondary Tertiary Quaternary Quintessential Ultimate Supreme Paramount Chief Principal Head Leader Captain Commander General Admiral President King Queen Monarch Sovereign Ruler Dictator Tyrant Oppressor Liberator Freedom Fighter Warrior Knight Paladin Champion Defender Protector Guardian Custodian Keeper Watcher Observer Spectator Audience Participant Actor Actress Player Performer Entertainer Artist Artisan Craftsman Craftswoman Tradesman Tradeswoman Worker Laborer Employee Employer Boss Manager Supervisor Director Executive Officer Official Representative Delegate Ambassador Emissary Envoy Agent Broker Dealer Trader Merchant Vendor Supplier Distributor Wholesaler Retailerm
Episode Transcription:
Victoria Volk: Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of grieving voices. Today my guest is Angie Hanson, and she shares her story of immense loss. Journey marked by the deaths of her one year old son, Garrett, her husband Jack, her brother, Seth, and her sister-in-law brook. In her own profound grief, Angie, Phones, and a mission to change the narrative around grief, to bring light into the darkest moments, and to offer genuine support to those walking the path of loss. She founded butterflies and halos in twenty twenty two a greeting card company that seeks to bridge the gap between sympathy and understanding, between condolence and companionship. Angie is also publishing her first book chapters of a resilient heart that will be published in May twenty twenty four, so it’s actually on preorder and coming out very soon as we’re recording this. And she also co hosts a podcast from Lost to Light touching on all aspects of losses and how people have found their light. Thank you so much for being here. And I love the podcast app title, and I love the book title as well. How did those come to be?
Angie Hanson: Well, honestly, for the podcast, I co-host it with a fellow widow friend of mine, Michelle, and When we started talking about doing the podcast together, we were just like, we wanted to focus on how people have found their light, you know, and through any losses because we know that losses are not just death. And we know that there’s losses from divorces, you know, drug addiction, abuse, anything, job losses, pet losses, And so we really wanted to touch on all those because and we wanted people to figure out and let us know and let our listeners know how did they find their light and it’s been so inspirational listening to how people have journeyed through their losses and they found their light and especially the people that have come through like the recovery of any drug addiction. Those are the ones that really just grab at my heart and I’m so amazed by them. So their resilience is amazing and so that kind of steps into my book title, chapters of a resilient heart. I kind of always love the name chapters. I’ve always wanted to own a bookstore named chapters. I’ve just loved that. And so I kinda had chapters of this, chapters of that. And nothing was just really settling with me. And then we actually were on a trip in Costa Rica, and we were sitting there talking about the title of the book and my husband that I’m married to now, the word resilient came up. And we were just like, well, that’s kind of everything that I embody is, you know, the resilience of my losses and what I’ve kinda you know, and what I’ve encompassed by doing what I’m doing now out there in the grief world is I’m leaning into that resilience of everybody. So there we are. My new book, chapters of a resilient heart.
Victoria Volk: I love it. What were you doing before?
Angie Hanson: Well, I actually was working in a Taffy store like saltwater Taffy. Okay. So there’s a little local store here. She’s actually an antique store and I kinda worked for her just part time doing some things, and she actually started this Taffy saltwater online Taffy company where she ships out monthly subscription boxes to people and you get Taffy, surprises every month. So I kinda learned a little bit of the online industry through her and through helping her and working for her. So that kind of just put me in motion to, you know, understand going forward with my, you know, with my business and all that. So Yeah. And then, you know, I just before my deaths, I actually worked in the banking industry. So I worked doing everything in a small bank here. So but then death happened and knocked at my front door, and I never turned back to that job.
Victoria Volk: As a way of doing that, doesn’t it?
Angie Hanson: It just Yes.
Victoria Volk: Then everything. And what were some of the questions, like, big questions you were asking yourself as you were I mean, because you’ve had a lot of loss and we’ll get to those. But, you know, what was coming up for you as you were going through this? And first of all, like, how did you even get out of bed?
Angie Hanson: You know, every day in the beginning after my I was working at the bank when my son had died. And The biggest obstacle for me was how, you know, moving forward in life and how do does that look like? And what does that look like? And it was it was very very hard, but my daughter was four at the time. And, you know, I just really leaned into wanting her to have a good life. And the life that she deserved and honoring her and, you know, just wanting her to be able to have happy fun times. And I had to figure out how that looked like and what that looked like. And so I just basically, every single day, it was, okay, you can get up today and today if you shower, perfect. Today if you just, you know, if you get to go outside and sit perfect. So the questions that I asked myself surrounding that, like, what what matters most now? Does does it working a nine to five in the banking world matter? Absolutely not. It didn’t matter to me anymore. You know, I didn’t I didn’t care. And my only kids were my family at the time.
Victoria Volk: Would you say in in some ways? I just in the conversations I’ve had over the last four years plus years of having my podcast too, it’s like, when you have other children that you have to get up for. They’re almost like you’re saving grace in a way I imagine. Is that Did you find that true for you too? Like, she was really your reason to get Yes.
Angie Hanson: Yes. And her name is Gracie. So she was she was my saving grace. And with, you know, I, you know, my husband and I, Jack, we definitely grieved differently. So he was more of a go out. We lived on an acreage. So he was more of a, let’s go outside and work work work, you know. Keep my mind occupied. Do that do that. And for me, I was just so lost. You know, I just I couldn’t think of how I could move forward. And but every morning when Gracie would come to me and I would see her, you know, I’m just like, this this is not fair for her. You know, she deserves to have this beautiful life, and so she she did. She saved me from going into a rabbit hole.
Victoria Volk: Was your son for those that, I mean, don’t know you or have never heard you speak or be on podcasts and things your son was one, Garrett was one. Was he sick? Much of that year, first year?
Angie Hanson: No. Garrett was the epitomy of health. He had just turned one, and he died six days after his first birthday. And he had just had his one year checkup on that Friday and he died on a Tuesday and he had a heart defect that went undetected. And it’s a very undetectable heart defect as well. It’s It’s got a really long name. It’s like ectopic origin of the right coronary artery. So basically his right coronary artery was kinked, And so you a person suffers sudden cardiac death in extreme arrest or extreme activity. And, you know, you’ve heard similar stories, maybe of athletes dying on a court or a football field, and that is similar to what Garrett had, and he was resting. He was sleeping. He was taking his afternoon nap when he died. And there really are no signs or symptoms, you know, because that was one of the things I had really asked our pediatrician was did I miss something? As a mom, I was just holding guilt. Did I miss something and nothing? I mean, he was He ate well. He was happy. I mean, joyful. I mean, his coloring. Everything was perfect. I mean, even the doctor was like, I don’t know how I could have missed that, you know. And we did talk to some lead cardiologists at our local children’s hospital when they said that there was nothing really that we could have we could have seen or noticed that would have show us that he was he had that.
Victoria Volk: You mentioned your your husband had he had also passed away. And so how far out was that was the loss of your husband from when you both lost your son.
Angie Hanson: Garrett died in June of two thousand six, and then about a year and a few months later in two thousand seven, my husband Jack was diagnosed with cancer. So he had melanoma when he was twenty one years old, and so he had a molt removed, you know, some invasive surgery on his arm, but it was nothing that had spread. And then, you know, we’re fifteen years later when our sun dies. And I honestly believe the stress of our sun dying, you know, ignited those cancer cells on his body again. You know? And he was trying to be the strongest for all of us and that’s who Jack was. So he was diagnosed, let’s see, fall of two thousand seven, so just a little over a year after her son had passed. And then Jack, he was diagnosed with ocular melanoma, so he had a large tumor in his eye. And it had spread through his to his liver and his brain and a spleen. So you know, at that moment, we were told, you know, Jack was diagnosed terminal. And, you know, we didn’t know how long he would have with us, but we weren’t going to not fight. So we fought and fought and fought. He did chemo radiation, all the things. And Jack battled for about sixteen months before losing his life to the cancer. So he died in February two thousand and nine, so just two and a half years after our son had died.
Victoria Volk: And your brother, Seth, and your sister-in-law like this. I know. I don’t even like, it’s not like it’s not nervous laughter, but it’s just like it’s it you can’t even wrap your head around it.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. Yeah. It’s unbelievable sometimes when, you know, own people here it for the first time it is it’s unbelievable. My brother Seth had actually been battling a brain tumor for about five years. And him and his wife, they lived on our acreage with us. So we had like a big house and a little house My brother Seth and Joey, his wife, they lived in the small house. And when Seth was first diagnosed with his brain tumor, five years prior, he I was kind of his caretaker a lot because he lived there and, you know, right there and my parents were divorced. And so, you know, they had both remarried and kinda had some younger families, but I had no problems doing that. And then once he re once he married to his wife, you know, she was able to take care of him a lot, but it was about a month after Jack had died. So in March of two thousand nine, my brother just started having some issues, some headaches, and things like that. So he had his third brain surgery on March thirteenth of two thousand and nine. And he had always bounced back from all his surgeries because he was extremely healthy. You know, he was an exercise guy and, you know, he didn’t drink nothing. And it just came back this third time with a vengeance. And two months after my husband died, my brother died, he died on April seventh two thousand nine. So, you know, just he just they removed that brain tumor that third time and they were going to end up doing some chemo and radiation once he healed from the surgery, but the tumor just came back with a vengeance. And he he just died. And it was, you know, I at that moment in my time, point in my life, I was just like, what in the hell is happening? And I was so lost because and I didn’t know who I was grieving. You know, I didn’t know if I was grieving my son or my husband or my brother. And it took a lot of hard work for me to, you know, decipher who I was grieving for and, you know, separating those griefs and you know, still raising my daughter, Gracie, and just doing all the things that I could to survive.
Victoria Volk: And how old was she at this point?
Angie Hanson: Gracie turned so she was six in February when her daddy died, and then she turned seven and March. So yeah. So, you know, in between all that, you know, she has this wonderful birthday, but Yeah. It was just I, you know, I just really, really just wanted her to have this happy life, you know. I didn’t want her to be the victim of all these deaths, you know. And I didn’t want it to define how we survived and lived our life. So I had to really work on figuring out how to maneuver that.
Victoria Volk: And what did that look like? Because for people listening, like, growing up, we had a lot of loss early in I had a lot of loss early in my life. My dad, my mom had lost her mom within the year. And so there was just it was a lot too in my growing up. But as a kid, you know, there wasn’t a lot of talk you know, and this was back, you know, late eighties, early, you know, late eighties. So what did that look like for Yeah. What did that look like with Gracie? And, like, how did you talk about it?
Angie Hanson: Yeah. You know, we I’ve always been the one to just talk about it. Let’s say their names constantly, you know, talk about them, who they were, you know, listen to stories if people would tell us just so she could know who these people were, and what kind of people they were and if we could mirror how they lived life and that would help us and it has and we we live big for these people in our lives that have died and you know, I we went to some group therapy, and it was a lot of it was four kids, her age, we went to a local organization here in Nebraska and it was called grief’s journey or Teddy Bear Hollow at the time. I guess they’ve changed her name, but And that was really helpful for Gracie because I really taught the kids how what death looked like, what what it all look like. I mean, from just the artwork that they would do to teaching them. So that was helpful. And then she did see a therapist a couple times. You know, and every time I go, the therapist honestly thought she was doing really well. And we just had a strong support system around us. And, you know, our family was hard with our family because everybody was had lost the same people.
Right? But and we are all grieving differently. And we are all grieving, you know, different people. But we were able to come together and honor all these people just the same way that we could greet them. So everybody really wrapped their arms around Gracie.
And, you know, I journaled a ton and that was my therapeutic way of dealing with some of it was journaling. And, you know, I just like I said, still every day I’d get up and I’d make sure, you know what? Gracie’s going to have a good day today. How does that look? And, you know, it’s it’s not easy. I don’t have a magic answer for people because I know people want that magic fix because but we know that grief cannot be fixed whatsoever. And It’s just, you know, time does help whether people believe it or not. Time does help. It’ll never make it go away, but it changes and it evolves. And But that’s not going to be the first year or the second year or the third year. And when you’re having compounded grief like we had, it’s, you know, it’s hard.
Victoria Volk: When did you feel like you could breathe again? Although, you did end up having another loss in the mix?
Angie Hanson: Yes. Yes. You know, I feel like after about a year, after my husband and my brother had died was when I kinda started feeling better. I was feeling more hope And I had more faith in me because I had lost a lot of my faith. And but I was I was feeling that. And I was I was seeing glimmers of light and, you know, there were things just within my life that was just feeling good, you know, and size like, okay. Okay. We’re we’re gonna be okay. This isn’t gonna be easy still, but and yeah. So that leads to my, you know, my sister-in-law, my first husband’s sister, Jack, Brooke, she died in two thousand eighteen, so nine years after her brother had died. And she died from alcoholism. You know, and so that’s our choices that we have. You know, and I talk about the choices a lot. And My sister-in-law broke was an amazing human. She loved life. She was smart. She was beautiful. She had amazing drive, but she couldn’t deal with the deaths. And she didn’t live in Nebraska. She lived in Colorado. So she was away from all of us when we were all grieving, and she was dealing with it by herself in Colorado. And she had lost her job And she turned alcohol because when she would drink, that’s when she felt the safest, and that’s when she felt the best. And, yeah, she ended up, you know, her choice was to drink. And She ended up dying from alcoholism in June of two thousand eighteen. So, you know, that that left her parents without any living children. You know? And so it’s heartbreaking. And but that’s I talk a lot about you know, my daughter, Gracie, you know, we have choices. You know, I chose to live and I chose to honor our people and brook didn’t know how to do that, you know. And it’s it’s not any shame to her. She thought she was doing what felt right because the alcohol made her feel right. She just got she just got stuck into that trap and, you know, it’s sad and unfortunate, but it doesn’t define who she was as a person at all. Because if she could have just known, she would have she would have gotten past it.
Victoria Volk: You know, if and if she would have been grieving maybe with the family and had that support system around her to to witness other people and who could hold her to Exactly. To support her.
Angie Hanson: Exactly. It’s yeah. It’s it’s it’s really really sad. And so it’s like I said, it’s it’s all our choices that we have, and we really honestly just have to decide every day, how we’re going to move forward each and every day, putting one foot in front of the other, and it’s not going to be easy. We’re gonna falter. You know, we’re gonna turned to maybe stuff that makes us feel better and but we have to continue to journey forward healthy and positive.
Victoria Volk: And how is a gracie how is gracie adjusted into young adulthood now?
Angie Hanson: Yes. She actually just graduated college. So, Gracie’s now twenty two, and she just graduated college. And she’s doing amazing and I feel like with her she honestly has such a good head on her shoulders. And, you know, I think she’s just learned by watching. You know, that’s You know, I just always kinda tell her, you know, you can you can do whatever you want. You you know, we can be whoever we want. We can strive to do amazing things, be good. And I think she’s really just kind of taken those and really just become an amazing young lady. And she’s she’s we still honor and we still talk about our people, you know, we we giggle, and we laugh, and we tell stories, you know, now all the time about them and we support everything that our family members met to us and what they brought to the table for us, you know, the all our our grief has turned into this big gigantic bubble of, I don’t know, purpose and love, I feel like
Victoria Volk: What did your daughter choose to go into?
Angie Hanson: She is she got her degree in Kinesiology. So it’s sports medicine, basically. And so she wants to do, like, medical device sales. She wants to give people abilities to walk again, you know, use their arms again, things like that, whatever that looks like,
Victoria Volk: to take action in their lives. Right?
Angie Hanson: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, to move. So, yeah, she’s so she’s home with us.
It’s been a blessing because, you know, she was gone for four years. And now and she went out of state and she was fourteen hours away from us when she went. So she graduated high school in twenty twenty era, so she really didn’t have a normal graduation. And then she graduated just now four years later So now she’s back home and it’s so fun to have in our home.
Victoria Volk: So when did this greeting card company spark come up?
Angie Hanson: You know what, it was probably the end of twenty twenty one I am remarried now to my husband’s chance. And, you know, I would sit there and talk to him and just tell him, you know, the greeting cards you know, greeting cards are simple. They’re an inexpensive, simple gesture to support a friend. And I was just tired of seeing all the with deepest sympathy. I’m so sorry for your loss greeting cards. As well as intended as they are, they don’t hold any value in my in my eyes, you know. It’s it’s it’s an easy out for people. So I’m just like, why can’t we say something like this? So the very first card I had come up with was I don’t know what to say. Let’s go eat one of those damn casseroles. You know, so that’s what I would give to my friend who maybe had just lost her spouse. You know, I’m not going to give her with deepest sympathy card. And I just really wanted to figure out how we could change the narrative around grief and change the stigma that grief shows up in cards and, you know, at the stores, at the, you know, all the hallmarks. And I’m not bashing hallmark whatsoever. They have some wonderful cards, but they don’t have people that understand what griefers feel like. And so I came up with a list. I have about well, I have a hundred and sixty cards. And right now, and they are mostly all grief related. I do not call my cards sympathy cards because I feel like sympathy is something we give. The first few weeks after someone dies. And, you know, that’s the sympathy and understanding. And then moving forward, are we going to show up for our friends, weeks, months, years later, if we could send a card to our friend once a month. You know, just acknowledging their grief still and, you know, telling them that they are supported, I mean, That is what I wish I had. Would have had one I was going through the depths of the grief. If I was having a really crappy day, I’d walk out to my mailbox and if I had a card that just said, I’m thinking of you or some of the funny ones that I have, you know, I just wish that I would’ve had that. But I mean, that’s gonna change the whole day for your friend because they’re gonna be like, wow. Angie’s thinking of me again, and that means the world to me that I’m not alone in my grief, that people still are acknowledging this. And that’s my whole vision with this, you know. And like I said, it’s simple. It’s not going to fix them. Because like I said before, we can’t fix grief. It’s going to just support them and acknowledge it. And that’s all we want. We want to to still even years later. I still love hearing stories about my people. You know, if people will tell me in with writing this book, I’ve had people reach out to me that used to work with my late husband, Jack, and they’ve bought the book, and they’re just like, Angie, we are so proud of you, and they’ll tell me funny stories about Jack. And, you know, that’s fifty Jack’s spent on fifteen years, and I just think that’s absolutely amazing that people are doing that. And that’s what I want with my cards even.
Victoria Volk: Did you not feel supported?
Angie Hanson: I felt supported, yes, but I just think even back in two thousand six, when Garrett had died? People still didn’t talk about grief a lot. You know, I just feel like the whole movement of changing the narrative around grief has happened within the past couple years. Cool. Yeah. I you know, and I’m seeing this, you know, this brief community that, you know, where I even met you on, you know, on this socials, I just feel like, It’s evolving. And, you know, we are changing it. And I think, no, people I had support from my friends. Yes. But I just don’t think people knew. And they didn’t know if it was acceptable to still a month later or two months later or three months later, to send me a card. You know? I don’t think that they knew that or if it was acceptable.
Victoria Volk: And Or even to share the like, the dark humor
Angie Hanson: Exactly. Out
Victoria Volk: of, like, the visceral thing. Right? Yeah.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. And, you know, and then it It’s just and it’s okay, you know, and it’s I just want people to know that it’s okay to do that. But I just feel like even like you said, you know, when you had had your losses, you know, even back in the eighties, I mean, it was really taboo to really talk about stuff like that. You weren’t supposed to bring that up. You know, we honored and we kinda started our own after our son had died honoring him. But then, you know, here we are. Like I said, I think with the social media world that we’re living in, finding these grief communities where we are at and starting to change the narratives is so important. And I’ll give you an example of like, the sympathy versus the empathy, there’s a greeting card, and I this is nothing against anybody. I’ve kinda talked to them about it, but there’s a The Greeting Card Association, and they hold what is called the Louie Awards. And the Louis Awards is like the Oscars for greeting cards. So you submit, you pay per card to submit your cards. Well, so they only have they have so many different categories, but they have a sympathy category. And they don’t have an empathy category, but I submitted to the sympathy category. And so then I didn’t none of my cards won, which is fine. But then we received the feedback from the cards. And one of the comments that I received was very disturbing to me because they said, the cards are okay, but they make me feel uncomfortable.
Victoria Volk: So Then you’re uncomfortable with your grief, my friend? Yes.
Angie Hanson: And so that’s and then all of a sudden, I was just like, oh my gosh. You know what I so I actually made a real about it, like a funny real on Instagram. And that is my biggest it didn’t go viral, viral, but it went pretty close to being viral because people were astounded that this made this person feel uncomfortable, and it’s in a sympathy category. And that is why we need to change the narrative around this grief industry. You know, people need to know. This is why we can’t have people in a hallmark that have never had a loss writing or greeting cards, you know, and it’s it’s it starts. It starts right here, you know, and that’s that’s what I want to do.
Victoria Volk: You know you’re onto something special when you’re poking the bear and you’re giving a response like Right. Promise. Yeah. I actually designed a couple cards. And years ago, like, gosh, five years ago, and I put him on redbubble and, like, just randomly one day, I was like, where is this money from? So I bought the card. I was like, Yay.
Angie Hanson: That’s awesome.
Victoria Volk: I’m gonna be out there and I was, like, whatever, I’ll put it out there. Yeah. I’ve just been dabbling, but I’ve understood that too for years that people just don’t get it. And to bring some sarcasm in humor, into something that’s just so heavy. Everyone has that friend that will get it. Yes. You know what I mean? Like that it’s bringing some lightness to something that’s so heavy and you can’t even wrap your head around sometimes. Right?
Angie Hanson: Exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah. Because, like, one of them I have, you know, it’s the next person that tells me everything’s gonna happen for a reason. I’ll throw, punch him. You know, just I mean, you know, never would I do any physical harm to anybody, but you know what? My friend would she would appreciate that card, and she would, you know, she would understand it. So that’s definitely yeah. I I’m enjoying it. I enjoy the greeting cards.
Victoria Volk: Well, let me ask you this. So, I mean, you’ve shared a lot of, you know, backstory and how you were feeling and on supporting Gracie and all of that. But what overall has your grief taught you?
Angie Hanson: Really, you know, it goes it goes to resilience. It’s taught me that you know, we can have join happiness together that, you know, the grief and happiness can coexist. And honestly, I just it’s taught me to be obviously more empathetic. And I think through everything that I have been through, I am so amazed by the human body in our mind and what we can tell ourselves to journey through the grief, so that’s where the resilience comes in. And I don’t think somebody can be resilient if they keep on telling themselves that this is crappy. You know, it’s no fair. You know, why didn’t my person have to die? You know, if we tell ourselves negative feelings and thoughts, it’s going to be a negative journey. And you’re going to be stuck and fifteen years later, you’re still going to be stuck. But if we can tell ourselves that, you know, what we can be happy. You know, we deserve to be happy. You know, we have to have that faith and trust. And, you know what, that’s going to evolve throughout the years. And so then one year fifteen years and almost eighteen years out for my son dying, I can live an extremely happy life because that’s what I’m doing right now. And so I just think our resilience in our bodies and our mind is so powerful, powerful, and we just have to tell ourselves that we can.
Victoria Volk: When it comes to kids, when people say kids are resilient, when they’ve had losses, that’s always I’ll tell you this. It’s always rubbed me the wrong way because as kids, they don’t have a choice.
Angie Hanson: Exactly.
Victoria Volk: You know, it just I hate when people say that, oh, your kids are so resilient. They’ll bounce back.
Angie Hanson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: And I can speak from my own experience, but you know, just knowing the grief that I’ve experienced. It has a child growing up as a grieber. It just changes over time and it’s it’s gonna show its face again and again and again and especially with loss in the future because we are human and you love and you lose. Right? And we’re taught how to acquire people and things, but not what to do when we lose them. And so you mentioned and you touched on your parents’ divorce, your son wasn’t your first loss. So you had other losses, I imagine, growing up and pet loss and probably maybe friends and moving and all of these other things. Can you speak to that a little bit and what you learned about grief growing up and maybe in hindsight what you took from those early experiences in your life.
Angie Hanson: Well, I did experience probably that my first traumatic loss was probably when I was about seven. My uncle was killed in an accident. And so I just remember that that feeling of wow, you know, and I would say, again, like, back in the day, we just didn’t talk about that. And so it was kind of hush-hush and different things. I mean, it was It was a very public accident. He was on the volunteer fire department and the rescue squad got hit by a train. And so three of the members had died and two had lived. And so it was a very public, you know, accident, but You know, we didn’t talk a lot about it. And then, you know, my grandparents died when I was younger, you know, and then my parents divorced when I the year after I graduated high school, And so through all that, I guess, I would say that I just really learned how to I guess, separate some of those losses and grief and just, like I said, I journal a lot and I read a lot and so I think separating grief and losses into what they are. So, you know, it’s okay. This is a bad accident. You know, I we can’t put blame on, you know, like, losses. I don’t like that. Like, people are like, well, why would God let this happened to your son. Why would god let this happen to your husband? Why would god let your uncle get hit by a train? You know, things like that, but God doesn’t allow that, you know. And I just he’s there for us when we when we go through these hardest things. And I guess, I just probably stuffed a lot of it sometimes when I was younger just because we were taught to do that. And so then as I grew and then as I come upon my first loss of my major loss that catapulted me into a losses that I never would ever, you know, turn back and be the same from. That’s when I really learned about what death was and how to journey through it. And I’ve learned now more so that talking about all those losses are probably the biggest thing that really helped, you know. And I just wish that we could have back in the day talked about those losses because I think it really could have changed because I’m certain that my parents divorce probably stemmed from a lot of the losses that they had endured. You know? My dad’s brother was the one that had died, so my dad didn’t deal with it. You know, they just didn’t talk about it. And so then, you know, my dad drank and then my parents got divorced and then, you know, it’s just it’s a cycle. And so how can we move forward in these losses in a healthy manner. And I guess that’s what I’ve learned to do is just do it with all our people in mind and keeping their memories alive.
Victoria Volk: Well, my next question is, one tip you would give other hurting hearts, and I would say that that’s a pretty good tip?
Angie Hanson: Yes. Yes. I would. Yeah. And I just I’ve always believed in the, you know, the choices. You know, the choices that we make. And If you’re if you’re hard if you’re really really hardening, you know, don’t don’t expect don’t expect change immediately. And I always, you know, say, you know, give grace because you’re going to have a great day one day. And then and the next day, you’re going to take a couple steps back and it’s going to take time for your heart to feel love again and normal again. And, you know, you can have it there. You know, I had love for my daughter the whole time, but I didn’t really care about the outside world as much. I didn’t care about the outside noise. And but it’s the choices that we have. So how do we choose to love and honor our people?
Victoria Volk: You had touched on a little bit about having lost your faith a little bit. And so the role of faith and spirituality through your grieving process. I know that was a huge aspect of my grief story. Can you share a little bit about what that looked like and how that changed over time?
Angie Hanson: Yeah. I talked it was really after my brother had died that I had lost all faith, you know. And I couldn’t understand how this was happening, why this was happening again and again, and you know, and you always hear the saying, why do all the good ones go? You you know? And I kind of just slowly journaled about it. I went to a group that was a Christian led group, and that is really what changed a lot for me. Is because I learned about death and how it is in the bible and God. And then I started putting my faith back into him. And I learned, like I said earlier, that you know, we are all built a certain way, you know. And so for my son to be born with a heart defect, you know, that was that’s just something that happened. And, you know, my husband and my brother are both with cancer. You know, they it’s just their genetic disposition. You know, they environmental things. We don’t know, but what I know is what I’ve where I’m at today is not because I am the strongest human in the world. It’s because I’ve been carried and something bigger than me is holding me through all this and they’re guiding me and I have to believe that and I have to believe that all my people are safe But for me, I just really leaned into reading a lot about it and just trying to understand what faith and death and god all meant.
Victoria Volk: What was the toll of grief on your health? Over the years. Do you recognize you did you have physical symptoms? Like, how did the grief manifest for you? Because in grief recovery, which is program I adore and love and change my life, but we talk about nerves, short term energy relieving behavior. So you were talking about alcohol and just how people use these outside things to cope. And so how did neither grateful manifest in physical symptoms or will turn to these things to help us to feel better for a short period of time. So what how did the grief manifest for you?
Angie Hanson: I would say that, you know, I you know, I after our son’s death, I really lost a lot of weight, you know. That was my kind of my health thing I just didn’t wanna eat, I didn’t care. After my husband had died and my brother died, you know, I just I didn’t really I didn’t turn to anything, you know, I didn’t drink a a lot more than I had normally. You know, I had drinks But my health wise, I just I just honestly like I said, I guess I just didn’t eat a lot, so I lost weight that way. But I was really just I think my mind was the biggest recovery thing that I needed to figure out how to be present, you know. And I had to be whole for Gracie. And I honestly didn’t turn to anything negative for myself. And I didn’t find I don’t have an addictive personality, so I don’t turn to, you know, that. But mine was mostly all my mind work. And how could I stay healthy? And the healthiest way I could be would be to work on my mind? And that was journaling and reading and, you know, I mean, traveling. Gracie and I traveled quite a bit. You know, we would go visit friends and just be in present. So, yeah, for me, I didn’t really turned to anything that hindered me from my process.
Victoria Volk: Well, even exercise can be a stirb. So it can be good things too.
Angie Hanson: Yes. Exactly. All of a sudden. Yeah. And, you know, I did not I did not turn to work. That was one thing I slacked on. You know, it’s just but yeah. Just I don’t know. Yeah. There’s not I don’t have anything. That’s that’s one of the things that I’ve kind of always been wondered about. You know, maybe I need a deep dive into that a little bit more, you know, to go back into those corners of my mind and really see about what I did. That’d probably be a good exercise for me.
Victoria Volk: Because there’s these myths of grief. Right? It’s keep busy, grief alone. You know, don’t feel bad. You know, there’s so many time heals all wounds, which you touched on time, but it’s not it’s not the time itself. It’s the action that you take within the time. You know, that Exactly. Matters. And it sounds like you were, you know, surviving but yet also doing what you knew to get more control or what have you of your thoughts and your thought process and it’s so easy to downward spiral, to allow your thoughts to downward spiral and Yeah. Take it You know, I just
Angie Hanson: I always you know, I had a friend of mine. She had lost her husband two years prior to me losing my first husband, Jack, and, you know, she was a she was a good resource for me, but when I would have bad days, you know, we would and we would do this with each other, we would just be like, okay. You’re allowed to have this one bad day. But tomorrow, you’re going to get up and you’re going to, you know, you’re going to change your thought process. And you’re gonna change, you know, your mind and everything. And, you know, just giving ourselves that permission to be because I feel like people, honestly, like, they want to do something to fix it. Even even ourselves as grievers, we want to we want to feel how we felt before. We want to feel the same way and, you know, we just can’t. But if we can allow ourselves that time to grieve or just to be or just to not do a single thing. Like I said, if if you wanna lay in bed all day for a day, lay in bed all day, there’s nothing wrong with that. And I feel that that is part of the whole healing aspect of grief is doing that. But you know what, then she’d say, she would check on me the next day. Okay, Angie. How are you today? Are you going to get up and shower and go? And yes, I would. And, you know, I, you know, just and also just yet, like you said, exercising and being outside with nature, but I just think giving ourselves permission to be and not rush. And don’t rush the grief process either. You know, you we it takes time. And I feel like a lot of people rush it.
Victoria Volk: Well, we are a you know, let’s just take a shot, let’s take a pill, let’s,
Angie Hanson: you know, let’s call Amazon, you know.
Victoria Volk: Herb side, like, we are such an impatient society. It is redontulous. Yes.
Angie Hanson: Yes. I agree a hundred percent.
Victoria Volk: How would you describe the ANGI before loss versus the ANGI after loss?
Angie Hanson: Well, that’s a good question. I would say that I was way more outgoing. I was way more friendly. And I and don’t get me wrong. I’m a very outgoing friendly person now, but it’s evolved and changed. I would it was easier for me to be friend. You know, now I feel like I don’t be be friend people easily and I think they don’t because I think I have this aura around me and people get scared of grief. So if they know about my story or any loss that I’ve had. They kinda run or turn their head or they just don’t wanna dive deep because I think they think it’s contagious, but it’s not but I’ve had a lot of strange situations with that. But I was I was very just more very laid back, more more easy going, and like I said, more friendly. And now I just I get a little bit more anxious. I, you know, I really deep dive in who’s going to be my friend and who’s going to be in my life. And that’s maybe something like of a protectant part of me, like, I don’t wanna lose anymore people. So if I if I don’t bring all these people in my life, maybe I won’t lose them. So, yeah, I would I would say I have a lot I have a lot more anxiety in that aspect and Yeah. I wish I had some of my oh, my my free thoughts that I used to have, you know, because now I don’t have those free thoughts as much. And I’ve just kind of adapted all my like I said, I’m I still have all those feelings. I’m still a nice person because I am, but they’ve all adapted differently than what I was before
Victoria Volk: I resonate with that a lot. I don’t know if it’s my resting bitch face or my aura, but probably my aura too, but I tend to I tend to poke the bear when I’m, you know, meeting people. And it’s it’s because It’s like you don’t have time for bullshit. Like, let’s cut the bullshit. Let’s cut the surface level talk. Like, tell me your deepest desires and your dreams. Like, what do you want what do you wanna do with your life? Like, like, those are the kind of the questions that I wanna talk about, and it’s like, it’s really hard to find those people, like the deep thinkers and the, you know, the thought provoking questions and the insightful you know, people, you know. And I think because we get so caught up in this, the mundane daily life, you know, the hamster wheel. We don’t even stop to think about the things that ignited us when we were kids. Right? Like, just actually one day just over Mother’s Day weekend. There was three little girls, and the semi truck just chewed its horn, and the girl’s just so kitty and just yeah, just like this. And it was so funny because I never shared that with anybody. And as I was sitting there, I was thinking, gosh. I was taken back. I was having some ice cream with my girls or seventeen and a half and six you know, fifteen already. Yeah. And I just was taking back in time in that instant to See, I saw them, like, you know, in doing that, my daughter does this still to this day when she gets excited. And Yeah. So it just took me back in time, but I don’t know where I was going with that.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. I just think it’s like, you know, the society the way society has grown and changed and evolved that, you know, we we are losing, like, you know, you the deep conversation with people. You know, it is hard to find those people that we can match up with and have those, you know, just sit there and talk about and walk away feeling just refreshed. You know, I leave a lot of conversations feeling icky. You know? And I don’t I haven’t pinpointed exactly why, but like I said, I just when people when I first kind of meet them in a situation and they ask me, oh, what do you do? And I’m like, well, I you know, I have this greeting card business. Oh, that’s awesome, you know, and they’re like, what kind of cart and I, you know, I tell them and they’re I’m like, well, they’re mostly grief cards and they’re would you do that? You know? And then I’m like, well, do you have a while? No. But, you know, so then I kinda explain And then I can see their whole demeanor change. And so then I just like and then I get sad sometimes because I’m like, There’s nothing wrong with me. I’m still I’m the same person but different, but I still want to have the deep cover stations, and it doesn’t have to evolve all around me. I wanna hear all about you, you know, and so that’s yeah. So I just I feel like in society and it’s it’s kinda like the fast and go of the world that we were talking about that people people don’t wanna take the time to learn and have those deep conversations anymore. And I feel like we have to get back to that.
Victoria Volk: Well, and I think they’re afraid. I think it’s fear. Imagine what people say to me. I work with Grievers. Like, I work with Grievers, and I do energy healing, and and all this weird stuff, you know. And she might, like, do some voodoo on me or she might, like, you know, get me to, like, confess and verb verb vomit, all of my grief. You know what I mean? Like,
Angie Hanson: explain my real feelings. Right? I mean, people they’re they’re scared of their real feelings.
Victoria Volk: I had someone actually just just word vomit just let it all out in a very public place. And I felt so you know, obviously empathy for this person. Right? But I was, like, a little bit, like, What’s the word? What is the best word to describe that feeling I had?
It was refreshing. It was refreshing. That’s probably
Angie Hanson: felt the same feeling. Probably.
Victoria Volk: It’s like it there is something about giving it a voice. And, you know, I think so many of us I’m gonna get into, like, some voodoo top voodoo voodoo talk. Like a throat wound. Right? I think many people have a throat wound, you know, especially if, you know, as females particularly or young girls that grew up and, you know, be seen and not heard and don’t use your voice and or or you’re too loud or you’re too much or you’re too much of this or too much of that. And so we just kinda minimize our voice and we don’t use it. And I guess that’s been the greatest gift for me and having my podcast. And maybe you can relate is that it’s helped me find my voice in what I experienced and in sharing stories with people and meeting people like you said just sharing in community with other other grievers
Angie Hanson: Yeah. A hundred percent. I yeah. I do. I feel like when I hear stories after people talk about their stories during the podcast and, you know, and then when I listen relistened to him and I, you know, I just I take back I take away so much.
You know, I take away from that initial conversation. And then when I re listen to it, I take away more and I hear more and I hear more of what they were saying because then I can listen to more tone. Their tone of their voice and different things like that. And then I have a whole different perspective of what they are feeling and going through. And it’s absolutely amazing. I mean, that’s why I just you know, we these platforms that we’re able to utilize such as the podcasts and, you know, writing our books, you know, and even our socials, it’s sharing our stories is so huge for everybody because it is bringing out so much for so many others that they’re maybe just sitting on the sidelines and they hear the podcast and then they they read about or if we’re talking about our books, they’re like, Well, I could maybe do that, you know, so it’s sparking stuff in people. And we are, like I said earlier, we’re changing this narrative, and I feel the evolution of this really taking place. And I’m really excited for what it’s gonna do for future grievers. Because I just feel like sharing our stories however that looks, you know, even if I’ve told people before, even if you write a full book and you never publish it, that’s okay because you shared your story. You know, you shared it and that’s you shared it within yourself and that’s okay too. You don’t have to publish a book to be great. You don’t have to have a podcast to, you know, you can just sit there, but you’re you’re growing by hearing stories.
Victoria Volk: And that is a form of giving it a voice too. Yeah. And journaling. You know, I journaled I journaled since I was fourteen.
Angie Hanson: That’s awesome.
Victoria Volk: I mean, quit, you know. It’s it was my outlet very early on too. So
Angie Hanson: Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s so methodic for people to be able to write down things. And I, you know, I just people are like, sometimes I’ve heard people say, well, I could never write a book. Well, no. You could write a book. Write it all out. I don’t care. Type it all out. However you want, but you don’t have to publish it. No. It’s you’re still doing the same thing I’m doing. I just excited to publish mine, and you didn’t. But we, at the end, we did the exact same thing.
Victoria Volk: That’s exactly true. Yeah. Like I said before when we started recording, it’s like, I think they people think to write a book, it’s this huge And it is a big project. Right?
Angie Hanson: And I’m
Victoria Volk: not gonna deny that or minimize that. It’s a project, but it’s not as scary as some people make it out to be. You don’t have to have a publisher, you can self publish, which there’s there’s so much free information out there I mean, actually, my tagline is Google that shit because I mean, I’ve learned so much by Googling and and I guess I’ve never been one that’s been afraid to, like, dive head first and let the rabbit hole, you know, swallow me all, but You know? I mean, that’s the fun of it. Right? Like, that’s and that reminds me of what I was telling with the story, with the little girls
Angie Hanson: Yeah.
Victoria Volk: A friend of mine I didn’t tell her about that, but she had the exact same story exact same story across two thousand miles away where she saw these two little girls and she saw them get so excited and hers she we’re in a in a box or group together and Yeah. We’ve known each other online now for, like, four plus years. But she’s one of those people, right, where we talk about stuff, like, we’re talking here, like, have deep conversations that she was, like, just never it was a reminder to me and she said to never lose that spark. Never lose that joy that you had as a little kid just seen, you know, having someone toot their horn and give you you know, and I told her my story, and it’s like, it’s like mind blowing, like, the synchronicity of that. It’s it was just a reminder again to me, you know, what brought you joy as a kid? How can you bring some more of that into your life as a grieber? In your adult life, you know. Yeah. It’s Yeah. I love that. Messages there for you. Yeah.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. I do. I absolutely love that because that’s the joy as a child is absolutely beautiful. And, yeah, we we need more of that in our adult life.
Victoria Volk: To play.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Instead of just these schedules and these these deadlines and just the anxiety that life brings everybody if we could just let it go. And just be, that would be amazing.
Victoria Volk: So what would a day of play look like for you? Well,
Angie Hanson: you know, I’m actually gonna do it later on here. My daughter, since she’s back, we’re gonna go golfing. And so she wants to go she wants to pick up and learn golfing. And she wants us to learn how to play pick a ball. So it’s like, so, you know, it’s a beautiful day in Nebraska, finally today.I was like, you know what? Yeah. We’re gonna make time and we’re gonna go golf this afternoon. And so that’s what we’re gonna do. So today, and we’re just gonna have fun. And we’ll probably giggle because she will probably be I golf. So I do golf already, and I’m on a ladies league, but she doesn’t giggle. So we’ll probably giggle at the way she hits the ball and all that, and it’ll just be, you know, easy going. And like I said, having her home has brought so much life kind of back into our house that was missing, you know, not you know, my husband and I it’s just been the two of us and which has been great. And, you know, we’ve had an amazing four years, but having her here just brings a only different element of joy back into our house and laughter. And because she’s just you know, she’s a silly twenty two year old girl.
Victoria Volk: And the energy. Right? It’s a different energy
Angie Hanson: and Yes. Yes. And we’ve been taking she’s, you know, walks every day. So we’ve been going for walks every day and you know, it’s just it’s just been so amazing. And, you know, that’s just I’m learning to, I guess, slow down in a sense to, like, I don’t have to sit in front of my computer and do do do, you know, I guess I’ve built I’m going to build my career around my life, you know, and the way I want it to look like. So I’m able to do that right now, so that’s what we’re gonna do. And I’m celebrating that for you. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: You know? Yes. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Angie Hanson: I really just want people to know that, you know, if you are if you are a griever and you’ve lost someone, you know, just really, just give yourself the grace that you that you deserve and do not rush your grief and your grief journey because it’s just it’s it’s yours. And you get to do it your way and you need to move through it and journey through it. So I just I really want people to honor those feelings that they’re doing as they’re grieving. And then if you’re not the griever, if you’re on the outside and you have your best buddy or anybody going through something tough. You know, meet them where they’re at and don’t try to rush ahead of them, you know, speak their people’s names, you know, just acknowledge them. Don’t try to fix them. And, you know, you will be the best support system that they need. And just always continue to reach out to them even if they tell you no twenty five times. You know, the twenty sixth time they’ll say, Thank you for reaching out to me. I needed to hear you today.
Victoria Volk: And just by twenty six of Angie’s cards and then Yeah. And then I’m like,
Angie Hanson: That will get you through two years.
Victoria Volk: Twenty six. Yeah. Yes. Definitely. So where can people find your cards and connect with you?
Angie Hanson: On socials, Facebook and Instagram. I’m at butterflies and halos, and then my website is butterflies and halos dot com. All my cards are there. I’m also if you’re an Etsy person and prefer that, I’m on Etsy as well, butterflies and halos. And you can order my cards there. I have some other stationery products as some stickers and notebooks. And my book will be on there for sale here probably within the next week or so. And, yeah, Everything’s butterflies and halos.
Victoria Volk: How does that mean?
Angie Hanson: Oh, the well, butterflies are assigned my sign that I’ve had since my son died. And so and then the butterfly is just the the symbolism of a butterfly and the trans formation that they make and the spiritual transformation that they make is something that I hold really dear. And then the halos are for all my people. So that have diets. And so I just I kinda meshed them together for butterflies and halos. Yeah. I love it. And then for anybody that is on here, if you use the code podcast fifteen, you can get fifteen percent off your first order.
Victoria Volk: Is it all caps, lower caps?
Angie Hanson: All caps podcast fifteen. Yep. And then that can be that’s accessible on Etsy or my website.
Victoria Volk: And I will add that to the show notes as well. Yeah. Yeah. How long is that good for?
Angie Hanson: It’s it’s never ending.
Victoria Volk: Okay.
Angie Hanson: Yep. Yep. So they can they can use it whenever.
Victoria Volk: Right. Thank you so much, Angie. For sure. You. For having this deep dive conversation with me for the work that you’re doing in this movement that you and I are both part of, I think, is is moving the needle.
Yeah. Moving the needle by little.
Angie Hanson: Yeah. Yeah. We’ll get there. But I appreciate everything you’re doing as well, and I appreciate being on here and sharing and just the beautiful conversation. And then, hopefully, we can have you on our podcast here in the next few months, and that would be amazing.
Victoria Volk: I would love that. Yeah. Thank you. Invitation. Yeah.
So thank you again for being
Angie Hanson: my guest. Yes. Thank you.
Victoria Volk: And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, LGBTQ+, Mental Health, Podcast, Suicide |
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
This week on Grieving Voices is a mental health discussion with Lisa Sugarman – a multifaceted advocate who has overcome personal tragedies to make an impact. As a suicide loss survivor and crisis counselor, her insights are invaluable during Mental Health Awareness Month.
Lisa’s journey is one marked by unexpected turns. From being a content creator in the parenting space to confronting the harsh realities of mental illness following revelations about her father’s death, she exemplifies resilience and strength. Her story highlights how secrets can shape our lives and the importance of community support in healing from grief.
Key Takeaways:
- The power of listening over advising when it comes to parenting teens.
- Balancing work-life as an entrepreneur involves recognizing limits and practicing self-care.
- The transformative experience gained through crisis counseling at The Trevor Project.
- The connection between unresolved pain and suicide.
- Community is a crucial element for those dealing with mental health issues or contemplating suicide.
Lisa reminds us that connection is vital and perhaps lifesaving for those struggling silently. This episode encourages open conversations around mental health while providing solace and understanding for those touched by suicide loss.
As a proud member of the LGBTQ+ community and as a crisis counselor with The Trevor Project, Lisa passionately advocates for providing hope to young people facing crises.
Through sharing her own experiences with vulnerability and resilience, she reminds us all that transparency can aid in coping with grief. Self-care strategies are vital for navigating these tough times effectively.
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
_______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you are struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, free resources are available HERE.
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
In today’s blog post, we’re going to explore the profound insights shared by Lisa Sugarman on this week’s episode of “Grieving Voices.” As part of Mental Health Awareness Month, it is crucial that we amplify voices like Lisa’s – voices that have turned personal tragedy into a beacon of hope for others.
The Unseen Battle
Lisa’s journey wasn’t always centered around mental health advocacy. Originally focusing her writing on parenting advice, she was thrust onto this path after experiencing suicide loss within her family. Losing her father at ten years old left a mark on Lisa; however, it wasn’t until 35 years later that she discovered his death was by suicide. This revelation not only brought clarity but also propelled her towards helping others navigate through similar pain.
Listening as an Act of Love
One key message from our conversation with Lisa resonates particularly strong: when raising teens—or dealing with anyone who might be struggling—it’s more important to listen than to lecture. Creating spaces where open dialogue can flourish without judgment is essential in fostering trust and understanding between parents and children or any two individuals for that matter.
Self-Care Isn’t Selfish
As someone who balances parenthood and professional life herself, Lisa underscores self-care as foundational to effective parenting and productivity. It isn’t selfish; rather it allows us to recharge so we can be present for those we care about most.
The Power of Secrets Revealed
The discovery about her father’s cause of death strengthened the bond between Lisa and her mother while highlighting how complex grief could become when shrouded in secrecy during times when mental health discussions were taboo.
Pain Shared Is Pain Divided
Lisa emphasizes that while each case is individualized, extreme pain seems to be a common thread leading people toward considering suicide. She advocates strongly for community support systems as critical safety nets for those battling suicidal thoughts—reminding us all that love alone may not always suffice in preventing such tragedies but connection can make a significant difference.
Addressing Suicide Directly
Discussing suicidal thoughts openly can prevent these dark considerations from growing unchecked in isolation. Asking someone directly if they’re contemplating self-harm opens up lines of communication which are often vital lifelines themselves.
For example, organizations like The Trevor Project provide crucial support networks specifically tailored towards LGBTQ youth—a group close to Lisa’s heart due both to personal losses tied to suicide within this community and identifying as LGBTQ+ herself.
Embracing Vulnerability Through Transparency
Throughout our talk with Lisa Sugarman, one thing became crystal clear—the power inherent in sharing your story transparently cannot be overstated. Not only does it serve therapeutic purposes for yourself but also helps guide others through their healing processes.
Moreover, resilience grows from vulnerability; allowing oneself time and space to heal fosters strength over time.
Lisa encourages everyone—to reach out proactively within their communities because sometimes those suffering wear no visible signs.
And finally—always prioritize maintaining your well-being so you remain capable enough to offer meaningful support where needed.
To conclude our discussion:
*Seek Therapy Early**: Don’t wait until you feel overwhelmed before seeking help.
*Offer Specific Help**: When supporting someone grieving or struggling mentally – specific offers tend better than vague ones.
*Remember Children Aren’t Therapists**: Parents should avoid burdening kids with roles beyond their emotional maturity level.
If you want further insight into navigating grief or wish simply connect with like-minded individuals advocating mental health awareness—you’ll find solace under the guidance offered by experts like [Lisa Sugarman](http://lisashugarman.com/). Her books provide practical wisdom while being laced throughout with heartfelt empathy born out experiences many will relate too intimately yet rarely discuss openly.
Thank you once again for tuning into “Grieving Voices” — together let us continue making conversations around grief less taboo so healing becomes accessible universally!
Episode Transcription:
Victoria: Thank you for tuning in to this week’s episode of grieving voices. Today, I am happy to address a very important topic for mental health awareness month. I have Lisa Sugarman with me. She is an author, a nationally syndicated columnist, a three-time survivor of suicide loss, a mental health advocate, and a crisis counselor with the Trevor Project. She’s also a storyteller with the national alliance of mental illness and the host of the suicide survivor series on YouTube. Lisa writes an opinion column. We are who we are and is the author of “How to Raise Perfectly Imperfect Kids and Be Okay With It,” “Untied: Parent Anxiety.” And “Life, It Is What It Is.” All all of their available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and everywhere books are sold. Her work has appeared on health line, parenthood, grown, and flown. Today parents Thrive Global, The Washington Post, little things, and more content now. Lives and writes just north of Boston, and you can visit her online at lisa sugar mint dot com, which I will put a link to the show notes to your website and your books and all of your things. Just poking around on your website, you do have a very extensive mental health resource hub. Mine is quite modest compared to yours, and it is. It really is. I mean, if you have a few moments to check it out, I highly recommend you you do so, and you also have a lot of just quick, like, kind of cheat sheets, if you will Mhmm. On there as well. And is this the work that you always thought you’d be doing?
Lisa: One thousand percent, no. Nope. I never imagined myself doing this kind of work in this space as an advocate, as a counselor. I mean, everything that I’m doing right now has has come as much of a surprise to me. As I think it has to everybody who is close to me kind of, you know, in my immediate world, but it was just the most natural transition for me.
To fall into this space in light of just my story that I know you and I’ll talk quite a bit about. But my story and some some pretty powerful revelations in my life that have come out in the last decade. And just, I guess, my need to do something to make an impact in the mental health space.
Victoria: Ten years before, you found yourself in this space. What were you doing?
Lisa: So I’ve always been a writer. That that hasn’t changed. I’ve always created content and I’ve been many different types of writers. I’ve been a newspaper journalist. I’ve written for magazines. I’ve written for publishing companies, done lots of marketing and PR, and and that sort of thing. I’ve been a columnist for many years. I’ve written books. And so I I did all of that in the parenting space predominantly. It’s just the place I found myself in.
You know, I I my husband and I have to they’re now grown daughters almost twenty four and almost twenty seven. So we’ve kind of cycled through that whole parenting stage of life with little kids and college kids. And that’s what I was writing about. I mean, that was the space I was in. It was what I was doing day to day. I was writing about the work life balance, and I was a working mom, and my husband traveled a ton, and and it was really just about that family dynamic, and that’s where everything’s centered. And it was really I think it was really almost kind of an overnight gift about ten years ago that kind of brought me into the space. But I’m in that.
Victoria: We’ll put a pin in that piece
Lisa: if it’s a pin.
Victoria: I we will. I wanna rewind just for a moment because Mhmm. I just wanna touch on what you were sharing about, writing about parenthood and that was the space you were in and you wrote books about that, you know, how to raise perfectly and perfect kids and be okay with it. Can you share a little bit just because and you mentioned balance. So I just for mental health awareness month, Can you share a little bit about mental health raising teens?
Number one. And today, particularly as in hindsight with what you know now. And then also, there’s a two part question. For entrepreneurs listening, who have kids who are doing all the things. What has balance been for you?
Is there such a thing?
Lisa: Too per question. I guess there’s balance, but there’s like a precarious balance as far as I’m concerned. So the first the first question. I think that the best advice I could give or the best comment that I could make about being a parent of a team or, you know, a young adult child is keep your mouth shut. Keep your mouth shut in large part, not always.
At the right times if you can, and take a step back and do at least as much listening to your kids as you’re doing talking to your kids. When I kind of arrived in that place of understanding that they had as much to share with me as I had to share with them. It was kind of a game changer for me, if that makes sense. Like, I you’d as parents were just kind of hardwired to wanna talk to them and teach them and guide them and advise them and do all the things and and at the end of the day, that is what we’re supposed to be doing. But we’re also supposed to be allowing them to kind of do the same thing.
Like, we’re figuring out how to be parents when our kids are figuring out how to be humans. So there’s a whole bunch of figuring of things out that we all have to be, I think, a little gracious to each other when we’re in that position. So that’s what I would say, you know, to to a parent of a child in in that space and time is just spend as much time as you can listening to your kids than creating space for them to have those conversations because they have an awful lot to say. We just don’t think they do. The second part of your question is a little more complicated for the balancing part.
So, look, it’s like trial by fire, you know. I think that when you keep your own self care as kind of an anchor in your life, recognizing that you’re absolutely useless to yourself, your family, your extended your immediate failure extended family, your friends, your job, your useless, if you’re not okay inside. If your mental health and your physical health aren’t good, there is no balance. There’s no such thing as balance. I don’t think or I haven’t found.
And it’s only when the there’s harmony with those things and you give yourself again giving yourself grace. To do what you need to do. Take the time you need to take, you know, focus on what you need as a human being. And then obviously, of course, what your kids need, what your partner needs, what your family needs. I think the rest, I think the balance part comes a lot easier when you do that or when I’ve done that for sure.
Victoria: And I think for myself personally, it’s like recognizing my limits Mhmm. What are what are my limits? And then where can I fill that gap? And where can I ask for help and support?
Lisa: Mhmm. Yeah. That’s big.
Victoria: Also found too, like, with because I’m I’m in the trenches of college and teen pre college years. And Well, what a what a tramp.
Lisa: Yeah. That’s an understatement.
Victoria: But I think one thing that I have found personally you know, we we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. Right? Like, to touch on what he shared, but I have phoned because I can go into teacher preacher mode. You know, I’ve been there. I’ve done that.
No. We always wanna share Yeah. So which way to them? Just Listen to me, you know, just I I wanna spare you. But I also recognize that the hard lessons are where growth is.
And so Mhmm. What I found personally that’s helped for me is when I feel like I I want to give advice or I want to, yeah, give advice. That may be unsolicited. Rather, I propose it as a question, get very inquisitive and curious. And so I pose it as a question.
Like, well, what do you think about this? For example, just for example, let’s say they’re, you know, dating relationships. Right? If they’re dating somebody, you know, are you talking at her or are you talking with her when I’m recognizing something that I’m hearing or seeing. Right?
And so it’s not telling him what to do, not telling my son what to do or how to communicate with his girlfriend, but being inquisitive about how he’s going about that.
Lisa: Mhmm. You
Victoria: know, and he’s his response. Fair, fair point. Like, yeah. Like, he got it. I didn’t have to lecture him for an hour about how to communicate with someone.
You know? So I think it’s just posing things as a as a curious question.
Lisa: Yeah. I, you know, I love that you do that because it allows your son or our kids to kind of retain agency over themselves and where the conversation’s going. And what advice they’re getting and and not getting and how they’re getting it. I’ll tell you something interesting, and I I know we’ll probably chat about it later, but it that just made me think of how much my capacity for holding space has changed our capacity, but I guess my skill set with holding space has changed since I became a crisis counselor with the Trevor project. Because the way that we are taught to hold space as crisis counselors involves basically completely removing ourselves from the conversation.
We’re part of the conversation but nothing is ever about me. Nothing I we don’t disclose our real name where we are in the world. Whether we’re gay, straight, or otherwise, whether we have families, what our opinions are, like absolutely nothing, no anecdotal, hey, that happened to me and I understand or I can relate or nothing. And that was a really, really big mind shift for me, but it was all focused on once I got it, and I understood that it was all about helping the person on the phone maintain that agency over the conversation and over themselves, it it completely, I guess, revolutionized the way that I have a conversation with someone and hold space and and the same applies. It’s very similar in nature, I think, to what you’re saying, about how you’re engaging with your kids because it’s a game changer too.
Victoria: I just connected the dot for myself. So thank you for sharing that. In that because people would ask me all the time. That’s one of the big questions I get because I I work with Grievers. Right?
I I hear and I talk with Grievers all the time on my podcast and, like,
Lisa: how can
Victoria: you listen to all that sadness and heavy stuff all the time? How can you work with brivers and deal with all that. And I always thought the answer was, oh, all this energy work that I’ve done personally on myself, but to be it just hit me. It’s like, I’ve done a lot of work on myself Yeah. To be able to hold space for other people.
Including my kids
Lisa: Mhmm. To remove
Victoria: my just exactly what you said. So I really I think it’s giving credit to I think the deep work that you’ve done for yourself to be able to be there for other people and also for myself. And I’ve, you know, and I’ve said it to other people, like, you can only sit with others in their pain to the capacity that you’ve worked through your own. You know, to the depth that you’ve worked through your own.
Lisa: Mhmm.
Victoria: But I never got it until you just shared that.
Lisa: So Well, it’s all perspective. Right? It’s that’s that’s what we’re here to do. We’re here to, you know, to make each other a little wiser.
Victoria: And I’ll let that be kind of this motivation for people, especially parents, to take the time to work on themselves because you do become a much better parent than your that your child needs you to be than what you think they need. You know,
Lisa: it’s true. It’s very true. And it’s necessary. And it’s part of that whole learning curve, that whole process. That’s, you know, where we’re supposed to get a little snappier every day, a little bit stronger every day.
Our skill set is supposed to deepen a little bit more as we as we go on.
Victoria: So what shifted ten years ago? I know it. I know it shifted.
Lisa: You know it shifted. Yeah. It
Victoria: What a way to change the topic.
Lisa: Yeah. Right. Right. So ten years ago, I learned Well, I’ll back up. Before I give the, I guess, what would be a pretty big reveal?
I’ll back up and say that I lost my father when I was ten years old. So I’m fifty five years old now. I lost my father forty five years ago. I’m an only child. My dad was everything in the world to me.
And he passed away very, very suddenly of what I was told was a massive heart attack. My dad was a really he was very active, very physically fit but he was also a very big smoker. And so that was not a hard that was not a hard narrative to digest because it was awful. And it was life changing, but it made sense. Like, he had a Mastercard attack.
He was a smoker. I connected those dots and there was no question. Fast forward thirty five years until I was forty five, which was ironically the same age that my father wasn’t passed away. I discovered very much by accident that my dad had taken his own life. And that was just that was a that was a time.
Yep. That was a time. For me that everything just imploded because it was nothing I ever suspected. It was nothing I ever even remotely considered. And I just, like, bumped into family member I hadn’t seen in years and we were talking.
And my husband and I was I was having lunch somewhere at an outdoor cafe. She sat down and we were catching up and she asked me about my kids and my girls were teens at the time. And she asked me if I got out of the blue picked for it, like, out of the blue asked me if my kids had any of the same depression and mental illness that my father had. And I did not know what in the hell she was talking about. And it but but that being said, I as puzzled as I was by the conversation.
I I didn’t ask her anything about it. I think I was too stunned in that moment. I didn’t know where it was coming from. I kind of let the conversation come and go and she left and I turned to my husband as what in the hell was that? I have no idea what that was.
My mom and I are extremely, extremely close. We talk multiple times a day he’s my best friend in the world. I didn’t run to her after that thinking, mom, what am I missing? Like, well, I didn’t do that. Surprisingly.
Kind of the next time she and I were together, which wasn’t too long after that, we were sitting or having lunch, and we were just doing like a normal reminiscing that we would always do. Nothing out of the ordinary. And very much in a in a spontaneous moment, I I asked her, my father had been depressed. And she said, yes. And before I knew it, was coming out of my mouth.
I had never thought about it. I had never asked myself the question. Certainly was not prepared to ask my mother the question. Never crossed my conscious mind. All of a sudden, I don’t know where I blurt it out.
Did dad take his life? And she said, yes. And she explained to me that he had taken his life and that in that moment when she was, you know, considering everything that was happening Now going forward, me and I was ten at the time and had no siblings and it was just the two of us, what would she do? How would I react? What would that do to me?
Losing him, what would that do to me? But then finding out it was a suicide, what would that do to me? And so she she made that decision in that moment to shield me from that truth and to tell me that he had died of a heart attack and never spoke about it with anyone anyone ever. Until he and I talked about it forty well, I was forty five. So that’s what that was that was the that’s my why for doing what I’m doing.
And it it unfortunately was not just my father dying by suicide. A cousin of mine took his life a year before my father. And that I didn’t know was a suicide at the time. That was my first experience kind of understanding even just in general terms what suicide was. And then three years ago, my husband and I had a very, very close childhood friend.
He took his life very unexpectedly. So we’ve kind of had that trifecta of suicide in our life. And I just I needed to do something with it. I needed I needed to kind of change it up and and take whatever I went through or whatever I learned from it. That lived experience and just pay it forward.
So here I am.
Victoria: Did it change your relationship with your mother?
Lisa: It made it even not that I ever thought that this was possible, it made it stronger. My mother is a force of nature. My mother is one of the most remarkable humans that I’ve ever known. She is incredibly resilient and so kind and generous and supportive in every way. And I knew instantly I mean, I was a mom.
I had already been a mom of teenage kids by the time I found out about dad. So I in that moment knew immediately didn’t need an explanation. I understood exactly why she kept it from me. And and to hear it from her, she would say, you know, then you were going off to, like, middle school and high school. And I didn’t wanna lay that on you.
And then you were going up to college and then you were getting married. So it was like there was all there were always these these, like, mile markers that these big you know, kind of inflection points in my life, and she didn’t wanna hit me with it when I was already dealing with, you know, a big transition in life. And so then she just kind of resigned. She never just say anything. Like, why did I need to know?
Victoria: Did she ever share with you what keeping that secret had done to her or what it was doing to her or how it affected her or impacted her?
Lisa: My mom, as I said, is one of the most resilient humans that you’ve ever met. She’s that this this amazing capacity. She’s just the most content person. And I think my my mom she says this all the time. She said this my entire life.
Is one of the most social and loving and outgoing people you’ve you’ve met. She’s also she also considers herself her own best friend. So she I I remember she would always say to me, you know, I’d be in the car and I’d be talking to myself than having a conversation and kind of working through things and, you know, or if I was off at school, she would do things like that. You know, she he just she never harbored any ill will toward my father at all. She said, I never since the day I learned that it was a suicide, which was, you know, the day he died, there was a note was found, so it was it was pretty clear.
He said I never have had a single moment of any dealings of anger. Or dad. I I’ve always understood. Okay. She knew the kind of pressure he was under.
It was really my father’s family. We don’t know what was going on under the surface. We know that my dad started seeing a psychiatrist maybe a month before he died. Because there was so much stress on his side of the family. My parents came from two very very different families.
My mom’s family is pure love, pure love and joy and kindness and support, and my dad’s family was I mean, I you know, I don’t I don’t even wanna say what my father’s family was was like, it was not an awful lot of love to be found. My dad’s side of the family. And that was it was obvious. I was a little kid, and I knew it. And it weighed on him.
He did everything he possibly could. To help his family. Nothing was ever enough and there was a lot of stress. And I don’t know what kind of mental illness he had, like, layered on top of that. But without knowing the actual why, which we don’t know.
I mean, the note that he left was more of just an apology. I just can’t I can’t go on anymore, and I love you both. And I’m sorry. But we have our suspicions about, you know, kind of what the family dynamic did to his mental health. So, yeah, my my mom, it only made me love and appreciate her that much more because I’m incredibly great sold to her.
I don’t know what I would have done at that point in time without the kind of resources that they have in place today for young kids who are are trying to navigate this kind of grief and loss because it’s it’s just a shit show when you’re trying to navigate a suicide law. Like any losses such a devastating thing to navigate. But when you compound that by a suicide, like, that’s a whole different animal. And for a little kid, to have been doing that in the 70s when nobody was talking about suicide. No one was talking about mental health.
No one was being open about going to therapy. Resources didn’t exist. I don’t know I don’t know if I’d still be here, to be honest with you. So
Victoria: You know, there’s two kinds of secrets. Right? The secrets to protect and the secrets that do harm and I wonder what do you feel about people who who chose that route, who chose that route, but I think do I mean, do you feel like there’s a connection between secrets and people who choose? Choose that? Or is it Is it purely mental illness?
Lisa: Meaning suicide, people use suicide? I mean, it’s no situational. I mean, I think it’s it’s so nuanced from person to person for sure. But there are obviously all these similarities attached to suicide that, you know, that kind of connects you know, connect suicides in general. I think that
Victoria: Maybe the better maybe the better question is, how much of it do you think is unresolved grief?
Lisa: Taking your life, I don’t know if I don’t know if it’s unresolved grief as much as unresolved pain. Not that there is too much of a distinction between the two, like grief is pain, but I think that when I talk about suicide in this context. I always say the same thing. The people who have taken their lives are not taking their lives to get away from you or to get away from me or to get away from their family or their community or their friends or their life. They’re taking their own life because they cannot emotionally go on anymore.
They they there is no way that they can exist and be joyful or exist and be productive. Like, they’re in pain. And it took me a really long time to arrive at that understanding. And once I did, it was like it was like ninety day instantaneous that the kind of mind shift that happened for me personally because I when my cousin passed away in nineteen seventy seven, and that was my as I said, it was my first experience with suicide. Not because anyone implanted this belief system in my head, but because I cultivated it all by myself, I just kind of silently quietly believed going forward in my life that suicide was a very selfish act, which is a very, very common response to suicide.
You’re like, well, why couldn’t they just speak up? Or Why couldn’t it work through it or why couldn’t they get help? Not that simple, but it wasn’t until I learned about my own father’s suicide. And really started studying mental illness and the impact of mental illness and depression and the fact that it’s just it’s an illness. It’s an illness that needs to be treated the way you would treat heart disease or cancer or, you know, the way that you would try to heal after an accident.
It’s no different. And it’s beyond your control, and that’s what people don’t understand. It’s so abstract. Like mental illness seems so abstract, but it’s an illness at the end of the day. And so it took me a long time to to recognize that it was really an issue of someone being so desperate to just stop hurting.
That’s why they take their life. It’s not selfish. It’s the only it’s the only choice they feel they’ve got, which is just unfortunate.
Victoria: I had a guest early on when my when I first started my podcast. In fact, it’s a two parter because we had quite an extensive conversation, but he was on the bridge, I believe, in San Francisco, and he was going to jump and take his own life. And
Lisa: Mhmm.
Victoria: You know, he had a brief second, but this thought that came over him and and stopped himself. And I and maybe there, perhaps, someone came on the bridge. That that might have been too. I mean, that’s been quite a while since I’ve recorded with him. But it’s one of my earlier episodes.
David is his first name. But he had shared with me and this is what I remember him sharing is that you know, the connection is the anecdote to having those suicidal thoughts. Like, connection is not the cure, but it is the the bridge to healing when you’re having those kinds of thoughts. What do you say to that?
Lisa: Oh, I absolutely agree with that. I think connection and community I’m I’m reading a book right now. By Francis Well, or I don’t know if you ever read it. It’s called the Wild Edge of sorrow. And He’s just just an absolutely brilliant man and he’s doing these, you know, grief and healing practices for years.
And he talked about that very specifically that he talked about the fact that at the end of the day, It’s community that helps us heal, it’s community that helps us grieve, it’s community that helps us navigate loss or tragedy or you know, some kind of misfortune. It’s by staying together as a unit and leaning on one another. Like, we’re not we’re not supposed to be here alone for a reason. We’re not We’re not all here by ourselves. We’re here to create these relationships.
And I think that community is is that linchpin that, you know, that can keep us rounded and, you know, and keep us kind of reinforced if that makes sense.
Victoria: What would you say to people who are listening and from your own personal experience Mhmm. Where they may feel guilt because their love their connection to the person just wasn’t enough.
Lisa: Mhmm. That’s a tough I mean, I’ve been I’ve been there. I’ve been in that position. I mean, granted I give myself a lot of leeway where that’s concerned because I was ten years old. So how can a ten year old really understand what a grown up is going through, especially like in the case of my father, he he didn’t he didn’t display like he was someone who was mentally ill, like he was hurting like nothing.
We knew absolutely nothing. But, I mean, as I’ve gotten older, you know, it’s impossible to avoid having those feelings of guilt. Like, if if I had asked him more questions or if I had stayed closer to him, it’s inevitable and it’s human nature. You know, we we blame ourselves because we just we feel so helpless and we feel like you know, what could we have said, what could we have done? I mean, I know all of us in our friend group who lost our friend a few years ago, kicked ourselves for a very long time.
What did we miss? What did we not see? How could we possibly not known this was so imminent. And you gotta release yourself from that. You really have to release yourself from that, especially when you’re in a situation where you would absolutely know what idea that the person is struggling.
Like that, you don’t you you can’t help but you don’t know, which is why it’s so incredibly important for the person who is hurting to reach out, reach out to a friend or a family member, a place where you feel safe or call a lifeline, or if you’re, you know, if you’re already connected with a therapist, like be, open, be honest because that’s the only way that people can ever help is when they know.
Victoria: People might be asking themselves then listening. Is the responsibility on the person struggling?
Lisa: I think two that’s a hard one. Two point maybe to a point in terms of vulnerability, sure. I think in as much as they have the capacity to reach out and just say, if it’s only a matter of saying, hey, I’m not okay. I need help. I mean, I think it’s it’s like anything.
It’s a shared responsibility. Like, when you’re talking about, you know, when you’re talking about community a minute ago, I think it’s everybody’s responsibility to be looking out for everybody and to care for each other and to check-in on each other. So I I think it’s all a shared responsibility to a point. I mean, I think that when a person is struggling and at that, like, on the brink and that close to making that kind of decision, thinking about suicide, it becomes challenging because I don’t, you know, you don’t know how much they have the capacity to reach out or to articulate. It can be really parallelizing that kind of depression that’s always attached to that level of pain that can really mess your head up.
It can really contaminate your thinking and and your, you know, it it can create a lot of irrational thought processes and I think, you know, it’s as much of their responsibility to try and articulate just that they’re not okay, and then it’s our response validate and meet them the other half of the way and say, what can I do? How can I help?
Victoria: In my training that I have received, but mental health and grief and all of that. One of the things that I think is a misconception for a lot of people is that if they come right out and ask, Do you have thoughts or have you had thoughts of harming yourself? You’re not gonna send that person down that spiral. Right? They’ve already had those thoughts if the answer is yes.
Lisa: But I
Victoria: think sometimes they’re just people who are struggling are just waiting for someone to ask. Yeah. It’s like the elephant in the room, you know.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. What that does? I’m glad you brought that up because it’s such an important piece of of this whole equation. It is a very big misconception that by suggesting that someone, you know, is that low that you’re gonna cause them to harm themselves.
The truth of it is, there have been so many studies that have supported that it’s actually the opposite. When you address that elephant in the room right away with that line very specific language to, like, are you thinking of killing yourself? I know it’s so off putting and jarring. Even GCU and I just talking about asking that question is like people get a visceral reaction to it because it’s so intense. But what it’s actually proven is that it validates the person’s feelings.
It gives them that that that doorway to help that, you know, that opening to say, I’m actually not, okay. And, you know, people I think a lot of people hesitate to ask the question because they’re really they’re scared to death about what the answer be in, like, how the hell do I handle it? If somebody says, well, yeah. Actually, I’m not okay. What what the hell do I do for now?
But it’s not your responsibility. And I’m saying, when I say it’s not your responsibility, I’m speaking now to whoever you are, who knows someone who is struggling. It’s not your responsibility to fix the problem. So take that out of the equation because that is not the responsibility that falls on you. What you can do is empower that person who’s struggling with someone who can help.
Empower them with if it’s nothing more, then, hey, I know you’re I know you’re struggling. I can hear it. Can you call nine eight eight? Call the lifeline? Or in my case, because I I work with the Trevor project, call the Trevor project hotline.
Or reach out to your therapist. And it’s about getting that person connected with the people who can help. That’s all that someone kind of needs to have in their back pocket. It’s just that the knowledge of those lifeline numbers or even that they exist and just and just make that suggestion.
Victoria: Can you share a little bit more about the Trevor project and how you’re halfway into this?
Lisa: Yeah. That was that it’s kind of an interesting little journey for me. So the Trevor Project for for people who are listening who don’t know is the country’s largest LGBTQ centric support lifeline, excuse me, more or LGBTQ youth ages thirteen to twenty four who are crisis. So we are nationwide. We also have an office in Mexico.
And we take calls twenty four hours a day, seven days a week from youth and crisis in the LGBTQ community who are struggling with everything that you could possibly imagine someone would call it like flying with, whether it be stressed about coming out or suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation or abuse or homelessness. Any reason why anyone would call a life flight. But in a way that I got on involved with it is that it’s a for me, it felt like the natural intersection of everything that’s really just important to me, my my top priorities in the world. Obviously, I lost my father and a friend and a cousin suicide. And crisis lifeline is one of their, you know, their biggest pillars.
And the other is, you know, the LGBTQ community and my oldest daughter who is going to be twenty seven came out when she was in college. And I came out as pansexual. I guess it’ll be three years ago this summer, this pride next month. And for me, it was a no brainer to be aligned with an organization that was, you know, both supporting the LGBTQ community and supporting people who are in crisis and who are struggling. So I they came on my radar probably when my daughter came out is when I became more aware of them.
And stayed on my radar for the longest time. And then about three years ago, I thought, you know, when I started getting very public about you know, the way my work was shifting and started telling my story more openly, I thought, you know what, this now is the time. So I got involved and I trained with them to be a crisis counselor on their, like, we have a text line and a traditional phone lifeline. So I’m one of the phone lifeline counselors. And I’m on the left line as often as I can be taking calls from people who are in crisis.
Victoria: When did it originate?
Lisa: Trevor celebrated, so we’re in our twenty sixth year. Wow. Yep. Yep. It’s has a really neat little origin story.
So twenty six years ago, there the three founding members were there was a film about a little boy named a high school boy named Trevor, and he was he was struggling with his sexuality. And the movie, the little short video, was up for an academy. And they played the video during the Academy Awards because I think it was like a twelve or fifteen minute video stage. I played the whole thing and they played in excerpts. But the producers of this video and and creators of this video said, you know what?
We’re playing this thing. We really have to have a kind of a work system. We’re playing it to encourage people to reach out when they need help. We really should have something in place for people who are watching this video now to reach out. So they started a lifeline.
And along with the video being played during the academies, they had they flashed its number up on the screen, and I think they got something like fifteen hundred calls that night, and the lifeline has been in place ever since.
Victoria: Wow.
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Twenty six years later.
Victoria: Like, what’s your latest book that you’ve written since you’ve made this transition in your work and your writing and all of that. I’m like, what the latest book? How is how is your writing shifted?
Lisa: It’s shifted dramatically. I mean, my voice and tone has always been the same no matter what I’m whether I’m writing about parenting or whether I’m writing about mental health and wellness. It’s it’s very conversational. I write like I talk. And I actually just signed a a book contract for my next book with my longtime publisher, Familias Publishing, to write a book about my my father’s story that because I’ve I’ve lost them twice in my life.
Mhmm. And I’m I’m really gonna be doing a lot of incorporating of a lot of the resources and the toolkits that you mentioned earlier that are on my website. I want there to be a huge resource section. For people to access who are struggling either with with suicide, with mental health in general, with grief and loss, And I have I’ve developed and curated an awful lot of tools. You’ve mentioned those as well.
People can download them, share them, access them. I wanna incorporate that into the book. So my story about my father will really kind of be the vehicle for having the the bigger more important conversations about surviving a suicide loss and and navigating that. So that’s what I’m working on now. And I believe the tentative publication date is twenty twenty five.
Twenty twenty five or twenty twenty six, but we’re we’re just in the beginning stages.
Victoria: What did your life look like after you found out how he died.
Lisa: If you were looking at me, if you were a friend of mine, like even a close friend. Most likely, you would not have known that there was anything going on under the surface. I I blew up I completely blew up inside. And for the better part of the first, I would say, three years, I would premise to sleep at night. My kids didn’t even know what was going on for the first three years because it was such a shock to me.
I I felt like I was dealing with my my own brand new grief. Like, I was starting day one all all over again and day one, minute one of losing my father all over again, but now under completely different circumstances. And I was trying to navigate that the best I could, which wasn’t very good. And I was trying to navigate helping my mom because remember for for thirty five years, my mother didn’t talk about this to a single bowl, and I wanted to be there for her. I wanted her to be able to somehow process things in a different way.
And so we were just very insular about it. It was just my husband Dave knew my mom and I knew. And I was very much one person to the outside world and very much a different person. Like, when the when the bedroom door closed at night, I was in pieces. And it wasn’t until I started I I started You never come to terms with anything like this fully.
You just learn how to deal with it and process it and live with it in different ways, in better ways, I suppose. Once I got to that point where I felt like I could start talking about it, I told the girls, and my husband and I said, we need to talk to them because they need to know what their DNA looks like now versus what it looked like before, because now they’ve got, you know, they’ve got some degree of mental illness in their DNA. That’s my father had some mental illness. It was a lot that came out that existed on my father’s side. And we all inherit that.
There’s, you know, that that generational trauma and that cocktail that’s you know, manifest in different ways and different people. And I felt that it was really important for them to understand kind of, you know, what was in my background and their background and and it’s ever at any point in their lives, they started having issues or struggling, which, you know, that they were of that age where that’s typically the time period where mental illness or challenges will start to emerge. And sure enough, my my oldest had a a lot of issues with anxiety and depression and ultimately went into therapy and found just incredible success in in going into therapy and going on medication changed her life. Absolutely changed her life and for the better. And once I told the girls that was it, I just immediately started sharing this the truth and never look back in sharing ever since.
Victoria: Was that the most healing that you found was in sharing?
Lisa: Yeah. I think initially that was incredibly cathartic for me just to know that I was I was embracing the truth. I was acknowledging the truth. I I was not I never felt really like it was a stigma. To me, I never felt like it.
I think I feel I feel like by the time I learned about my father, the world was already shifting in terms of the stigma around suicide. I think we went through a big awakening culturally where we’re talking about mental illness so much more and wellness and suicide and IDiation and self harm. And all of these things are so much more mainstream now than they ever were before. So I feel like that that was very helpful to me. In that way.
But writing about it has been, you know, and talking about it like this has been equally as cathartic for me. And I think one of the biggest things, every single time I go on shift, on a lifeline shift with Trevor Project, I think about my father. Every single time I pick up the phone and answer a call from someone who’s struggling every time I deescalate someone who may be higher imminent risk of suicide I feel an incredible sense of gratitude to be able to be in that position, to do that, and to be that person that can hold space for that moment in time for that person who’s struggling. So all those things combined have been healing for me.
Victoria: Thank you for that work that you are doing. By the way, welcome. You’re welcome. What has your grief taught you?
Lisa: That’s a big question. I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me. In all the conversations that I’ve had, I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me that. I think it’s taught me that I’m a lot more resilient than I ever believed myself to be. And then at the same exact time, I’m a lot more vulnerable.
And affected by it than I ever believed I could be. For me, I think I’ve learned that openness and transparency and sharing my story is It’s such a valuable tool. It’s taught me that I can be of service to other people, my lived experience while it may be very nuanced. Everybody’s is very nuanced. You don’t usually need people who have lost the same person twice in their life and grieve twice, so I have a little bit of a unique story in that way.
But I’ve had a lot of experience with grief and loss and I’ve learned that the more I talk about it, the more I heal, and the more it seems that other people benefit from it. So It’s taught me that putting it out there is one of the greatest gifts you can give to yourself.
Victoria: And maybe to someone you don’t even know.
Lisa: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean that. I mean that as well, for sure.
Yeah.
Victoria: What is one thing that you would share with people who are listening, who are struggling.
Lisa: Mhmm.
Victoria: And then also, what is one thing that you would share with people? Who are in support of or want to support someone, that may be something you haven’t shared already. Maybe that helped you or that in your training and things that you’ve learned along the way?
Lisa: So in terms of, you know, what I would share. If someone’s struggling, I would say just give yourself some grace. The way that you feel right now in this moment, this this heaviness, this this place of despair or hopelessness is not the way you will always feel. There is there is a change that happens. There is another side to these these feelings and this kind of desperation.
So I would say be patient with yourself. And gift yourself a little bit of time to be, you know, to to to allow yourself to be where you are at this moment. I I say it this way often meet yourself exactly where you are right now. Don’t try and get ahead because you’ve got to be where you are right now. You’ve got to sit in the feelings.
Even if they’re shitting feelings to sit in, even if they’re so painful and so difficult, it’s so important to allow those to penetrate because when we compartmentalize them and pursue them away, we try and negate them or avoid them, they’re gonna come back hard, and they’re gonna take you down when you don’t see it coming. So you know, it may not sound like great advice, but when you meet yourself where you are right now, it can be one of the greatest gifts you give yourself because you get to dictate the pace. You get to decide when you move forward and how you move forward. So that’s what I would say to that. And in terms of, I guess, coping strategies or things that that I would tell people to do, like, self care, self care, like, whatever that looks like to you, whether it’s giving yourself permission to say no, I don’t feel like socializing tonight.
Or I I think I need to spend time getting these feelings that I have in my head and my heart out. If you wanna talk to someone who is a safe person or maybe you wanna put them down in a journal or maybe you need to go in nature and go for hike or walk or maybe you need to go for a run or maybe you practice yoga and that is a place where you can kind of detach I would say, let yourself focus on on doing those kinds of things to kind of recharge, to help yourself you know, what do they say about a a radiator? You’ve got to bleed the radiator, so it doesn’t blow up. And we’ve got to do that with our emotions. So I would say whatever your thing is, that and everybody knows what their thing is so well.
Whatever your thing is, let yourself do that thing as a way of helping yourself to heal. That’s what I would say.
Victoria: I like the metaphor of using or analogy of using luggage. And so ever since we were children, we’ve been packing her luggage. Something happens. Like, I lost my dad. He would when I was eight, he was forty four years old, packed that suitcase.
My grandmother died a year before him. I packed that suitcase. Molested, packed a suitcase. You know, like, in by the time I was in my early twenties, like, I had a lot of luggage. I was dragging with me from the past.
Right?
Lisa: Yeah.
Victoria: And I think all of that luggage can just get so overwhelming to lug around. You don’t get to where you are. In your suffering and in your pain overnight. Yeah. Can’t expect that you’re going to get healed overnight.
So it’s just looking at that one suitcase. I’m gonna look at this one suitcase. What is what do I need to take from this suitcase. What can I remove one garment at a time? And that’s really I think I just started chipping away.
You know, because I felt I started with the postpartum. There were so many struggles that I had. I thought I was doomed for suffering and I just want to share with people. Just start with one suitcase. Yeah.
One thing. And a
Lisa: beautiful image. Yeah.
Victoria: Yeah. Bring some support in in doing that. Mhmm. Find the thing that you resonate with. Find the person that is safe for you.
Mhmm. Just baby steps. You don’t have you know, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Right.
Lisa: That’s right. Well, that’s right. That’s that’s why I say just you get to set the pace. Mhmm.
Victoria: You
Lisa: know, and it’s it’s very much a marathon. It’s not a sprint. So in in that context, you get to decide how you cover that ground. But every step that you take, it doesn’t matter what the pace is. Every step you take is forward motion.
That’s, you know, progress. If you wanna look at it that way. And while in the case of grief and loss, we never stop grieving for our people. Like, you know that? I know that most people who are listening to this know that.
You don’t stop. What we’re all doing here, what you and I are doing by having this conversation is giving people you know, the tools to learn how to navigate the trip a little easier. Maybe be a little lighter, maybe, you know, find hope a little sooner. That’s that’s the point because at the end of the day, for me, one of the things and this goes back to what you asked, what do I learn about grief? I’ve learned not to fear it.
I’ve learned not to try and push it away because to me, And I’ve I’ve lost, you know, we’re talking about the three people who I’ve lost, you know, father, cousin, and a friend, but I’ve that’s just a suicide. I’ve lost grandparents, aunts, uncles. I mean, I’ve lost friends. I I’ve been accompanied my grief my entire life. I don’t wanna stop grieving for those people because I love those people and those people are a part of the fabric of my life.
They’re part of that whole catastrophe of my life. So I wanna wrap myself in that quilt of them all the time. All of these people that I’ve lost So my grief while at the same time that it’s sad is also the thing that keeps me tethered to those people. So I think that was that was pretty transformative for me too when I finally kind of arrived in that place of understanding that. That it wasn’t something to push away.
It wasn’t something to barrier to fear. It was something to in a strange way in this Francis Sweller that I mentioned earlier, the author of the wild edge of sorrow writes that, you know, that’s how we keep our people alive. You know? And I think we all need to stay attached in whatever way is most meaningful to us.
Victoria: And we wouldn’t be who we are without those people in our lives.
Lisa: One hundred percent. Yep.
Victoria: Just like you listening the people in your life wouldn’t be who they are without you.
Lisa: Mhmm.
Victoria: Is there anything else that you would like to share that you feel like you didn’t get to. I mean, I think I could we could talk for hours. We could talk for hours.
Lisa: I mean, you’re all day. I love this is the kind of conversation that I feel so empowered to have. Like, I’m so grateful to be able to reach new people and, you know, in new communities. So I’m grateful to you from this opportunity. I mean, I think I would suggest to people that you take a minute and look around you at the people in your life.
There’ll be two cohorts of people. There’ll be the people who appear okay and grounded and settled and driven and joyful on the outside. And then you’ll be you can look at them and you can say, okay, I know that person is struggling. It’s because maybe they’re more vocal with it, maybe it’s their affect, maybe in a lot of different signs of signals. I would say, treat each one of those groups the same.
I would make it a point to check-in on your people. Make it a point whether it’s the people who seem great or if it’s the people who you know aren’t, back in with them. Ask them how they really are. Ask them if they’re okay. Ask them what they need.
Ask them how you can help because sometimes And this this applies especially to the people who don’t make their struggles very visible. When you open a door for someone, sometimes that’s all they’re looking for. That’s all they need. They just need to know it’s a safe ways to share what’s really going on. You know, people people like my father get very skilled at hiding what’s going on just under the surface.
And yeah, I know. I mean, it’s so common. I feel like way more people are fighting the truth of what’s going on than aren’t. And I think that we just need to be a little bit more sensitive of each other and make each other more of a responsibility. That’s how we get back to that, that have a whole sense of community, you know, back in the day when you know, my parents were young.
They lived with their grandparents and their extended families. And I my husband and I actually both grew up the same way, living with grandparents. But most of our friends did not. And, you know, nowadays these generations, you know, you you get married, you go off, you’re separated from your extended family. And people are living in these isolated little pockets.
And people aren’t there to check-in on each other and interact with each other and support each other in the ways that maybe people are used to a little bit more often. So when you get back to that, which circles right back to the beginning of our conversation about the importance of community and the importance of having support systems. So that’s what I think I would say to people. It’s just kind of be watching, be vigilant, and take your own pulse every once in a while too because you can’t help anybody, you can’t pour from an empty cup.
Victoria: Right? They bring up a good point, so you had talked about three years. You struggled, not necessarily in silence because your husband and your mother knew, so you had their support. But I’m curious if you’re daughters were, like, shocked. Once you’ve I mean, two counts.
I mean, eventually, once he said, oh, the past three years have been a living hell internally, and the people that knew you were like, whoa. Really? Like, I had no idea. And so how did you reconcile that? You know, knowing that the work you do now, you’re struggling in silence, would you have done things differently?
Lisa: Also good. You’re asking me all these really good questions that no one ever asked me before. I probably would have allowed myself to be more vulnerable earlier on. One thing that I would have done probably much sooner, much, much sooner, was start seeing a therapist again. So when I was when I was young, my first experience seeing a therapist, I was college age, and I had taken a gap year before gap years were even a thing.
And I wasn’t really sure what I wanted to do with my life, and my friends were already kind of established in schools and in programs and majors, and I just felt like I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And I struggled with that. And so I started seeing a therapist to kind of navigate that, work through that, we only really very briefly at times touched on my father in terms of big life events that kind of shaped who I was. I didn’t know he was you know, he had taken his life, so I that was not a part of our conversation. And I was in therapy like that for a number of years, and then I kind of found my way and and got on my path and and didn’t see another therapist for three decades, three and a half decades.
And I finally got to the point about two years ago when I said, you know what, I need something for me. I mean, My husband’s amazing. He has held more space for me than anyone has probably ever held for anyone. And my mother the same, but it’s different when you have that impartial person who doesn’t know your history, who doesn’t know that the social dynamics and the damiliar hierarchy and those dynamics, and that’s something I would have done right from the jump, I think. If I could have gone back and done it again.
Maybe not done anything differently in terms of telling my children, I didn’t want to tell them prematurely. I wanted to make sure that they had kind of the capacity to deal with that. Like they were teenagers, and it was heavy. And what I was talking about was something incredibly intense that I wanted to make sure they could deal with. So I don’t I I don’t regret waiting for that.
But, yeah, I probably would have, you know, been a little bit more open about it. But to the rest of the family, and I I probably would have done therapy sooner.
Victoria: That’s a good answer. And the reason why I asked too is because you know, we can have these regrets. Right? And that’s grief. And you had spoken and touched on, like, at the point you didn’t know what to do with your life.
You weren’t sure and you were struggling, and that’s kind of what caused you to seek help and support. But how much of it do you think? Like, it’s just in hindsight now. It’s like, of course, your the loss of your father and your cousin had greatly impacted you, but I just see so many kids like today. Like, there’s divorce and there’s just the heaviness of the world and social media and kids are just mean.
Right? Kids are just mean. Yeah. It’s like Yeah. It’s it’s so can you just speak briefly to maybe the and I don’t know that a lot of young, young people are listening to this, but surely their parents or caregivers are can you speak to supporting someone who was like you?
Who didn’t know, like, who felt like a fish out of water, right, floundering and
Lisa: You know, I I really think in the same way that I was suggesting that people meet themselves where they are. I think that’s the advice that I would also give someone trying to help a friend is meet them, meet that friend exactly where they are, hold the space, in the way that the friend who’s struggling needs you to hold it. You know? I mean, like I said before in the context of being a crisis counselor, like, you’re not there to solve the problem. Especially if someone who’s grieving a loss, any kind of a loss, whether it’s the loss of a a human being who’s passed away or the loss of a a job or the loss of a relationship or, like, there’s so many.
Like you said, there’s so many different sets of losses in the world. I would say, be there to support them in whatever way they need to be supported, but don’t go into it at thinking you’ve got to fix it and solve it because in most cases it’s unsolvable. You know, in the case of someone losing someone and and someone who’s grieving, there is no turning back, back clock. You know, it’s more about just moving forward trying to maybe encourage that person to figure out what they need. That’s a big one because oftentimes when someone’s grieving, they don’t know what the hell they need.
They don’t know where to go, where to turn, who to who to ask for help, you know, ask someone to go for a walk, ask someone to go to a movie, ask someone if they need help finding a therapist, if they don’t have one, cook a meal, one of the things I learned is not to ask open ended questions. Like, what can I do to help you? You know, I’m I’m there. Just just whatever and I get caught on doing this all the time. We all we all did this kind of thing all the time.
Be deliberate. Be intentional. Can I cook you dinner? Can I take you to dinner? Can I do some errands for you?
Can I pick up your dry cleaning? Can I pick up your kids at school? Like, what whatever the case is? I think those are the ways that I know that when I’ve been grieving, when I’ve been in that situation that needed help, those were the things that were the most helpful to me.
Victoria: Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Lisa: You know, I would just say, even if you’re someone who is private and a lot of people are, I am very much very much so. I am private in spite of the fact that everything I do is so public. I write about everything I write about is, you know, out there for the world to see. A lot of people are not comfortable sharing what’s going on the inside. I would say give people around you the benefit of the doubt.
Give the people in your life, the benefit of the doubt that that they can help you. That they can somehow offer support, trust. You know who you can trust. We all know who we can trust the most.lean into that.lean into the people who are there who want to support you. In the ways that you need them because at the end of the day, we’re not meant to go through any of the stuff alone.
Victoria: And to piggyback that, I just had a thought. Your children are not your therapist.
Lisa: No. No. So if you are a parent
Victoria: who is struggling, your children are not your therapist,
Lisa: agreed.
Victoria: Yeah. Yeah. Played that role for a very long time.
Lisa: Yeah. That’s right. But it’s just made me who I
Victoria: am, I guess. Yeah. You know?
Lisa: That’s right. That’s right. And and that’s the thing. You know, I mean, you know, we all we all have things we wish we could, you know, we could redo. But at the end of the day, we’re all we’re where we are because of those things.
So do we really wanna change those things or do we wanna just, you know, use them as teachable moments and and you know, be better going forward.
Victoria: I love that. Yeah. Just give a hug. Yeah. You have your parent and you need a hug.
You know, your kid probably needs the hug too. Mhmm. My daughter gives the best hugs to seventeen and yeah. She just and she won’t let go. Like, she is like, she will not let you go.
Lisa: Oh, I love that. I love that. I probably bug both of my daughters about hugs a little too much. My so my oldest lives in Japan. So I have to ration.
Like, I have to I I can’t go in too hot when I get off the plane. I all I wanna do is hold her for, like, three days, and she’s like, look. I will give you all the hugs that you want. You gotta you gotta pace yourself a little bit, or we’ll never get out of the airport. So Yeah.
But my kids are good ones too.
Victoria: My daughter knows psychologically a minute. Needs to be at least a minute.
Lisa: Mhmm. Yeah. I like that. That’s that’s like that’s an, like, a that’s an adequate amount of time to really, like, embrace the hug.
Victoria: Gotta let those good feelings that those good feeling adorphins come up and she knows that. So
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s that’s good insights. It’s it’s a it’s a child who comes from a good place.
Victoria: Yeah. Our kids teach us too. Share her. Forget that. Well, thank you so much for being a part of my podcast and the mission of my podcast, which is to make it less taboo to talk about grief, to talk about mental health and suicide and all the ways that we grieve and the experiences that shape us.
So thank you so much for sharing your story. For the work that you do. And I will put all the links to the show notes, but please share again where people can find you and connect with you.
Lisa: Sure. The best place I mean, I’m on all the socials. Lisa underscore Sugarman on Instagram. The Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, but the best place to to catch everything that I do is lisa sugarman dot com. And I know at the beginning of the show, you mentioned the resource of the mental health resources hub that I have on my website and the toolkit hub that I have.
And and that’s like a to me, that’s probably the crown jewel of the website for me. I’ve spent an awful lot of time and effort pulling together all these resources, betting all these resources, and they’re there for anyone who is struggling or if you know someone who’s struggling, please go on my website I’ve got about sixteen different categories. It’s a very inclusive website. Doesn’t matter who you are, what your background is. I hopefully have help that’s right for you, so take a peek.
Victoria: Thank you again. And remember, When you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
