Childhood Grief, Emotions, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Growth, Mind/Body Wellness, Pespective, Podcast |
Maha Bodhi | A Quest for Inner-Peace & Freedom
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Were you born and raised in the land of the free and home of the brave, the United States of America?
This week’s episode reminds me that oppression and enslavement are not only in Yemen, where this week’s guest was born but also in the free world. It just looks different from what Maha experienced.
Ironically, Maha fled Yemen, where she experienced oppression, enslavement, arranged marriage twice that included violence and rape, and two civil wars in search of a better (more free) life in America. A life where she could purchase a dress for the first time and make everyday decisions for herself without her father’s dictatorship and abuse from her mother.
This episode begs the question: Where is freedom truly found; is it a state of mind? Or is it simply where your feet touch the ground?
It depends on who you ask. Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl said: “It is not freedom from conditions, but it is the freedom to take a stand toward the conditions.”
Maha took a stand against her conditions. And we all have that power to do so, particularly within the confines of our minds.
Follow Maha’s journey from oppression to freedom when she became a U.S. citizen in 2018. Today, she truly is an unleashed heart, sharing her gifts, wisdom, and experience with all who are open to receiving her message.
There’s a story behind her name. Listen to learn the depth of her name and, more importantly, what it has meant to her as she’s reinvented herself as a free Maha.
The degree of your surrender is the degree of your success. – Maha Bodhi
RESOURCES:
CONNECT:
______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief, free resources are available HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
💛 Would you like to Learn Your Energy Type? Free Quiz ➡️ HERE! ⬅️
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA:
Victoria Volk 0:00
Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. Today my guest is Mahabodhi. And after surviving a brutal upbringing of being enslaved as a female in Yemen, forced into an arranged marriage twice, surviving multiple death threatening situations, and two civil wars before arriving in the US, Maha found her freedom and true self through the practice of ancient Yogic and modern neuroplasticity techniques. She is a living example of the hero’s journey and is dedicating her entire life to spread the transformational texts techniques that have saved her life. Thank you so much for being Yoona.
Maha Bodhi 0:41
Thank you for having me, Victoria, thank you so much. It’s an honor to be here.
Victoria Volk 0:45
And I initially met, I had gone to a Women’s Business Summit, and you were one of the presenters. And you had shared your story, and I was just captivated by your story. And I thought, Gosh, I need to have her on the podcast. And here we are.
Maha Bodhi 1:00
Yes, here we are. Yes, thank you for having me. I, it was so just so refreshing to see you in that summit, and to see all the incredible women and the incredible work that that organization is doing, you know, I was just really impressed.
Victoria Volk 1:17
And so you tour the country, and go all over speaking and things like that. But that wasn’t always your life. And I imagine what shaped your life in the work that you’re doing today has been your life experience? And can you take us back in time?
Maha Bodhi 1:34
Absolutely. Like you mentioned Victoria, in your intro, I did come from a very kind of traumatic background, my both of my parents are from Yemen. And it’s a very poor and undeveloped country, you know, 50% of the population and lives below the line of poverty. You know, they don’t even most people don’t even have access to clean water or basic human necessities, any sort of appropriate health care. And women are treated very, very poorly in terms of their goal, the purpose of a female really in that country is to serve her husband and, and a man is allowed to have up to four wives. They call them like Sister Wives and they all live in the same house. And arranged marriage is very common in that region. And not only nemenhah Multiple Muslim countries, and even till this day, it’s still practice that arranged marriage were really the kind of your parents, mostly the father, it’s the male dominant culture, the father owns the daughter, and then potential husband will come and propose and it’s kind of like a business deal. They shake hands. And there’s a dowry involved a lot of money that the potential husband pays the father and then the father hands off the female, his daughter or to the new husband. In most cases, they don’t even ask the woman permission, if you call her consent, if she wants to marry this man, you know, they show her a photo and this is who you’re gonna marry, and they meet for the first time in their wedding night. And so a similar, you know, scenario happened to me not once, but twice. And it was very traumatic, you know, one of the husbands was very violent and tried to kill me. And because I came from a very unstable family I also there was abuse in my home. So we the whole country of Yemen is a very, there’s a lot of turmoil, there’s a lot of civil wars, there’s Tribal Wars, there’s international wars, there’s like five different wars going on at the same time. And, and in addition to that, there was violence inside of our home, my mother was extremely violent physically, verbally, you name it. And so I was used to violence and it was kind of my normal. And so when I married the especially the second husband, and I was forced into that marriage, and he was violent, and he was trying to kill me in a machine gun in my head and a sword in my throat and these like dramatic scenarios that you only see in you know, Hollywood movies. And for me, I you know, it wasn’t that extreme, because I was like, Okay, do I go back home and, you know, somebody’s gonna kill me there. Do I stay here and die here. So those were kind of were my options. So it was a very extreme, extreme situation. But in that moment, when you’re in it, it’s now that I look back now that I’m here and I’m safe, and I’ve healed and I’ve matured, I look back and it literally feels like it happened to somebody else that feels like a movie. What I went through and I don’t like the human spirit is just so incredible and so resilient and and I look at myself and like wow, how did I survive that you know, and, and still move on and still come here. And you know, it’s a long story. My father was a diplomat. So we there that was kind of my key my window to freedom because because of his job as a diplomat official, his job required him to travel and to move Every four years to a different country, so we would kind of go back and forth. I was born in Russia, and we lived in Rome in Italy. That was my upbringing. And we lived here in Washington, DC, and my father worked for the embassy there for four years. And so kind of had a taste of what life outside of Yemen looks like. And that’s why I kind of, I knew inside of me that there’s another way, there’s another way of living.
Maha Bodhi 5:26
And, you know, eventually my father had to retire, I went to school in Romania, and I decided to, he was supposed to retire. And the last station that he was as a deployment was in Bucharest, Romania, and I knew that this was, if I go back to Yemen for good, you know, I will die, either somebody will kill me or I will kill myself. And so I decided to start applying for graduate school here in the United States, I saw some of my Romanian classmates do that. And it was like, A ha, that’s my key to freedom. And I just started applying, and I got accepted. And, you know, it was truly nothing short of a miracle. That, you know, I had convinced my dad to let me go to come here and get my master’s degree in organizational behavior, you know, really used school as an excuse, and, and he was able to let me go, and I came here, and I knew, you know, the moment I landed, the moment I stepped on American soil, was the first time in my life that I was free that, you know, I didn’t have to answer to anybody, I didn’t have a curfew, and I was in my 20s. And as like, no one’s calling me, no one is looking over my shoulder, I can go wherever I want, I can wear whatever I want. And that’s kind of where my healing journey began.
Victoria Volk 6:43
Hard to believe that, that still happens, or is still happening to people to women. And I can’t imagine the person that you’ve become right like, how, what did that look like for you? What did that healing look like? And also, I’m also curious, how old were you when you were first? Sold for marriage? Like, what is the typical age?
Maha Bodhi 7:06
Yeah. So you know, I was 19 my first arranged marriage, but Truly Victorian, mentally, I would say I was 10 years old, because of the lack of education, the lack of exposure, the lack of maturity, there’s there was zero sexual education, I did not know what sex was or how it works, or what a man and a husband doing the bedroom. And so I literally was a child in my head, even though I was 19, I was so scared and terrified, all they told us, it’s gonna hurt a little bit, but then it’s gonna be okay. And eventually, you’re gonna love him, and you know, just have kids right away, and especially have a boy because that will increase your value. And literally, that was all the sex education that I got. And so I was terrified. And also, I’m with a stranger all of a sudden, and there’s a complete, like, segregation between the sexes, in that culture, men and women do not socialize whatsoever. You know, they cover up the woman from head to toe, and then all of a sudden, on your wedding day, here you go, this is your husband, you know, go and be intimate with Him. And it was it was just like, insane. And so that was that was that was a lot. And then it was two years apart between my first thing so literally, the first arrangement, I only saved 30 days, and I was playing hide and go seek with this man. For those 30 days, I was sleeping most of the nights in the bathroom floor locking myself, you know, because I did not want to have sex with him. And I never did. I just hid in the bathroom for 30 days. And then eventually I ran back to my parents house. And then they locked me up because now I brought shame to the family because that’s so taboo in that culture and, and I attained like the whole family reputation. And, and that was this. I was locked up for one year, and there was a negotiations of the divorce, they were trying to bully me back into the marriage. And I really was fierce, you know, now looking back, I was standing up to the most powerful men and a corrupt country, you know, that man that I married, his father was the prime minister of our country, and, you know, in that kind of corrupt environment, and I was saying no to those men, I’m like, I’m not going back. I don’t know where I had that ferocity from, and I and so they locked me up in my parents house, literally solitary confinement, and for one year, I could not even see my own sisters that lived in the same house with me. At one point, I remember I opened the door to go to the bathroom and I see my little sister. And last time I saw her she was crawling. She couldn’t even walk yet. And now she was like, bouncing around and walking. She’s grown and I didn’t even recognize her and we live in the same house. And so I was losing my mind and I was literally starting to hear voices in my head and And then after the divorce was finalized, it took a year, they forced me into an a second arranged marriage, like right into it. And at that point, I was so desperate that I thought, okay, maybe it’s better, you know, to get out of this, you know, jail that I’m in, and maybe maybe this guy will love me and be kind to me, and I’ll have a better life than I’m having right now. And so I was kind of optimistic about this one. And he ended up being extremely violent, he was the one with the machine guns and the swords and locking me up. And, and that was where sexual abuse came in. And he because I just tried to do the same thing that I did with my first husband and avoid, you know, sexual relations with him, and he wouldn’t have it. So he was forcing himself on me and was pretty much right. You know, even though we, you know, we were married, if you will, but I wasn’t, you know, I didn’t consent to this marriage. And then same thing, I stayed there, I stayed with him for 40 days, because, you know, I gave him 10 days more, because I was just so terrified of, you know, doing it twice. And but it really was death or life in the situation because of the, how violent he was. And I was like, you know, what, if I’m gonna die anyway, you know, just, I’m just gonna go back to my parents house and see what happens and, and that’s when my father, it’s interesting, I call this divine intervention, because my father was supposed to retire. He was at the end of his career traveling was over and we were in Yemen and, and all of a sudden, my dad gets one last final diplomatic mission to go on it to go to Romania in Bucharest, and, you know, be the ambassador of for our country in that in Romania. And my dad, just because the situation was out of control, my dad just grabbed me and he said, Come on, just I’m gonna go to Romania to come with me.
Maha Bodhi 11:52
And so that’s how I went to Romania. And I started going to college because I wasn’t doing anything. I wasn’t going to school. You know, I was just being bought and sold left and right. And locked up. And so I started going to school, I went to business school and things kind of slowly began to lighten up for me, I went to school. And then the final year when my father was this time, for real, he was supposed to retire. I applied for graduate school and came to the United States. And you asked me, what was this healing journey and you see me now, you know, doing the work that I do when touring the country, like you said, and I’m writing my memoir, and I’m leading yoga retreats, and I, you know, work with Fortune 105 100 corporations. It’s not overnight, you know, and I know our culture has this, like, quick fix this before and after picture. It’s not like that. It was a process. It was years and years of intense healing therapy, yoga, meditation, inward reflection, and a lot of self study. I came here you know, I had to figure out who is MMA outside of all that chaos. I never had a moment to know who I am. I never made one decision in my life up to that point I was 25 years old when I came to the United States and I never you know bought a dress or never, you know, get got to decide the you know where to go or what to eat. Or, you know, my bedroom. I remember we would like because we were traveling a lot like I can I choose my room like now you don’t get to choose your room. You don’t get to choose and everything is thought for you. Everything is decided for you. Even my hair cut even like the littlest thing, every decision was made for me. So here I am a grown women. Now I’m in the land of the free. Everything is supposed to be amazing, right? But no, because internally, I don’t know how to make the simplest decision. I don’t know how to process information. I don’t know how to behave like a grown woman. I remember I had to buy a mattress because right I just moved here. That’s the first thing you do you buy a mattress to sleep on. And I did not know how I’ve never had a bank account in my life. I did not know how to pay for the mattress. The cashier had to show me how to write a check. And he would tell me like paying the order right here, sign here, put the date here. And I was so proud of myself. When I did that. I thought I achieved something incredible. And I didn’t know how to put gas in my car, all these things. So I had to learn step by step by step and yoga played a big, big role in my healing. And it really changed my life. And that’s why now I’m so passionate about helping other people and sharing the techniques that helped me because they work if it worked for me, literally coming from under a rock. English is not even my first language. And now I’m doing what I do. I think anybody can do it. If you have Well, if you have the determination, and you put in the work, it is possible.
Victoria Volk 15:07
Wow, it was like you were a 25 year old infant, I’m sure. It felt like ways Yes. And really vulnerable to being manipulated and taken advantage of again. And so did you. Like where? How did you even know where to find support? As when you first came here? Like, how, what did that look like?
Maha Bodhi 15:29
You know, I was so excited. And so I fell in love with America and American culture. And because of when we were traveling with my father, one of our stops was in the United States was in Washington, DC. And we lived there for four years. And I started kindergarten there, and I studied up to third grade. And me and my sister was me and my older sister, were kinda like two years apart, we got hooked. It was our favorite country of all the countries that we lived in. And we just fell in love with America. And then when we had to move away, because, you know, my dad continued to travel, we were heartbroken. And we never got over it. It was like falling in love, and you never get over it. And so we would move to other countries. And we would watch, you know, American sitcom Saved by the Bell, full house, all these things. We were so immersed in American culture, and so kind of resisting. You know, we were in Saudi Arabia, and we were resisting that culture. Were like, no, America is like so much better. And so we always were dreaming of like, America was the dream. And so when I came here, it was literally like, I remember I called my sister, I just landed. And I was in San Francisco, and I called her I’m like, I’m in San Francisco. And she’s like, whoa, you did it. And she’s like, just live the dream live the dream for both of us, because she got arranged marriage, you know, and into that, you know, path and she already had two kids and, and so she was like, you know, just do it, do it for the both of us. And so what motivated me when you said, like, how did you feel I was so excited. I was literally living my dream. And I was like, I’m here. And anything is possible here. You know, all those restrictions and chains that I had, were gone. And I realized, now it’s up to me. Now, it’s, you know, me and me. All the excuses that I had are gone. So it’s up to me what I do with this freedom, what I do with this opportunity, and so I just, you know, saw, you know, therapy. That was number one, I would say number one was therapy. I knew I needed healing, I would have terror nightmares. You know, I suffered dramatically from PTSD. I mean, I didn’t even know I had PTSD, I would just have these nightmares. And so I went to therapy. And and it went from there. You know, therapy really, really helped me break down how your past, you know, is still showing up in your future and kind of shapes the lens of how you view your world and your life. Right. Dr. Gabor Mate said it. He’s an incredible physician and therapist in his holistic his work is incredible. But he says,
Maha Bodhi 18:04
Your mind shapes your world. But before that your world shaped your mind. And so that’s why you know, I talk a lot about manifestation and manifesting your best life and my work, but unable to tap into your innate power of manifestation become the creator of your life experience, you have to undo you have to unlearn you have to heal. What was done to you, especially if it was a negative thing, the old tape, the old limiting belief, all my life, I was told that I was unworthy, my mom would literally step on me, I’m like, in a fetal position when I was young, and she would put her foot on my back and tell me like, you are worthless, you are nothing, you know, and I’m being like, I’m not I’m trying not to be BullGuard, they’re on your podcast, but she would say a lot of more aggressive things than just that. And so those things shape your mind. And I carry that with me all my life that I am worthless, like, who’s gonna want to look at me who’s gonna want to hear me who’s gonna want to be my friend who’s going to give me a job, all these things, I carry those with me. And then they impact all the other, you know, areas of development in your life, your career, your finances, your relationships. And so therapy helped me kind of see that. But I felt like I plateaued. I reached a point where I just felt like I wasn’t progressing at the rate that I wanted to. And that’s when yoga kicked in, because I love therapy so much, but you’re only dealing with the intellect part of us. And there’s a whole other part that is the body that is not tapped into therapy, unless it’s a Holistic Therapist. But that’s where yoga really came in. What does it feel like to feel safe in your body? How does it feel in your belly? How does it feel in your heart? How does it feel in your legs? eggs. And so those things to embody to be in body to feel the qualities that you want to cultivate. And the beautiful news is that, you know, it’s possible you can cultivate those qualities just through your intentions. And being mindful. The brain is malleable, the brain is plastic, it’s a muscle just like any other muscle. And we know now through research through neuroplasticity, a lot of studies have been done in Harvard, at the Lazar lab, the impact and benefits of yoga and meditation and what it does to the physical structure of the brain, they take the brain and they scan it before and they scan it after, you know, an intensive yoga and meditation program. And they saw that you increase gray matter through these modalities and through these practices. And what does that mean, what is gray matter mean? You know, I’m a little nerdy, and I don’t want to confuse people. All that means is that you activate parts of the brain that correspond to hope, optimism, joy, and you just start to make different decisions, and you start to have a different view of life.
Victoria Volk 21:10
So much came up for me as I was listening to you and I, my eyes started to well up when you were talking about what you said, your sister had shared with you. And I just thought, oh my gosh, like you’re not only in a foreign country, or you were familiar with America, but you left your family, your grind everything behind that you knew solar’s I have a two part question. If you don’t mind going there. But did you ever think about changing your name? is Maha Bodhi your birth name, first of all? And then secondly, are you still in relationship with your family?
Maha Bodhi 21:46
I’m glad you asked that question, because a lot of people asked me that question. So my first name Ma is my given name. It’s a very common name in Middle Eastern countries and Arabic speaking countries. And it was, it means in Arabic, it translates into big, beautiful eyes. And that’s why my parents named me Maha. And so when I came fast forward to the United States, and I’m actually in my yoga teacher training, and it’s my first day of teacher training. And the teacher asked me, Can you introduce yourself to the group and I said, Hi, my name is Maha. And he said, Do you want to tell them what Maha means? And I said, Oh, it means the beautiful eyes. He’s like, yes, but in Sanskrit, it means the great. And I had no idea Victoria, that it meant that in Sanskrit, or it had a meaning in Sanskrit. And everybody looked at me, and they were like, Whoa, you were destined to be a yogi. And you know, it’s like Mahatma Gandhi or Maha Yoga, it’s a means the great. And so that was kind of one of those, you know, universal signs that I like, I feel like the universe gives us clues clues, clues like this is to nudge us in the right direction. And so that was the first thing. My last name was my family name, which is I’ll call it D. And I did change it when I became a US citizen. And so I became a US citizen in 2018. And I didn’t have any intention to change my name. And I was getting naturalized. And my immigration lawyer, she told me, I was filling up the form. And she said, click here, do you want to change your name, and I said, Oh, and she said, This is the easiest way to do it. Like the fastest and easiest way, just check that box and write whatever name you want. And I was like, I actually do want to change my last name, because I felt like I was a completely different person. I had just completed my yoga teacher training. And I became this Yogi and I, and you know, when you when, when you are expecting a baby, you have like nine months to figure out what you want your baby’s name to be, or some people even know that beforehand. They really thought it through. They did research. And I didn’t have time and it was like that moment. And I just like came to me just Bodi came to me. And Bodie means the enlightened ones. It’s the Bodhi tree where the Buddha sat under the tree and he became awakened. And I felt like I was at that moment, I was going through these journeys, and I was having these awakening experiences that were so so powerful, and I would share them with with my colleagues during Teacher Training. I like did you feel that did you and they’re like, What are you talking about? We didn’t feel any of these things that you’re talking about. And so I felt like I was having a unique experience. And so I literally just wrote down. Bodie, not honest, I like I said, I didn’t have a lot of time to think about it. And now so then my friend told me, she’s like, Oh, so now you are the great enlightened one. I’m like, Oh, my God. No, like that’s That sounds very egotistical. I don’t see myself that way. You know, I’m just a human and progress like everybody else. But you know, I think it called me the name kind of called me.
Victoria Volk 24:58
I’d actually looked your name up before Are ya Business Summit? Yeah, cuz I was curious of the, I figured there was some sort of meaning behind. Yeah. The other part of my question too was, Are you still in communication with your family?
Maha Bodhi 25:12
You know, unfortunately, no, I had to sacrifice that relationship and able to move forward in my life. It was very difficult. I slowly be transformed. You know, I call, I call myself there was Yemen Maha. And then there was American Maha, and then there was yo Hema. And the transitions were very extreme. And it was difficult for me, I would talk to my parents initially when I first moved to the United States, and I would call them and I would talk to my sisters and talk. And what I realized is that every time I spoke to them, I have to pretend that I’m still that old MA for them. And I had to really hide who I am. And it was painful. It felt like self betrayal. And, you know, also, it was reminding me of, you know, the past traumas. And I was on this healing journey. And so I realized that if I really, really want to heal and become my fullest expression of my fullest potential, that there’s a sacrifice that needs to be made. And I did. And it wasn’t easy, but I believe that it was it had it was necessary.
Victoria Volk 26:23
And that’s a part of grief that a lot of people resist is creating those boundaries. And yes, really being able to have the, to feel empowered enough to say, No, I need to walk away from this relationship. It’s not serving me.
Maha Bodhi 26:42
Yeah, absolutely. Wow.
Victoria Volk 26:45
So tell us about the work that you’re doing now. And your mission?
Maha Bodhi 26:51
Yeah, you know, when I came here, I just wanted to be an American, just like everybody else. So I’m like, Okay, what do Americans do Americans get a job and, you know, work in corporate America. And so that’s exactly what I did. And I just got a, you know, I studied, I got my master’s degree in organizational behavior. And after I graduated, I found a job. I worked in the headquarters here in Los Angeles for DirecTV. And I worked as a leadership development trainer and coach and I was delivering, like classroom style trainings. And I liked it, you know, I didn’t mind it. So I just, I kept going, and I kept doing what I was doing. But yoga was always my happy place. So I realized, like, after work, you know, I was still copying whatever American culture was doing. So after work, everybody goes to happy hour, everybody. And I liked that for a little bit. But then I realized that you know what, I’d actually rather go to yoga. After work. Instead of that happy hour, I feel better, I sleep better, I wake up better. And so yoga was always my happy place. And then I just kept going for years and years, until one day, I decided just to take it to the next level. And I was like, You know what, I’m gonna go to a yoga teacher training. And I signed up, and I thought it was gonna be a hobby. I thought I was going to teach a yoga class at the park on a Sunday. That was really my intention. But then the first day, Victoria promised to the first I stepped into that room, I knew I knew that I was in the right place, that I belonged, and that my life was going to change. And for the first time in my life, I felt understood, I felt that this is a language that I speak. And I just knew that this was what I was meant to do and who I was meant to be. I was never good at school. And I struggled a lot with, you know, academia. And when I was in yoga teacher training, I was the smartest girl in the training. And I never and it was so refreshing and surprising at the same time. Like when a teacher asks a question, I’m the one raising my hand, you know, I always say like, Monica from my friends, like, I know, I know. I’m, like, I’m that annoying student. And I never was that student, I started to realize that the other trainees were coming to me for advice, and were telling me oh, you’re the best one only you can do this, can you please teach me and it felt like I have something to offer the world I have value, like for the first time in my life, and it was very rewarding that I have something I can be of service to others, and I can help make a difference. And and I never looked back. And you know, I would I will say that I probably wouldn’t have the courage to completely quit my job and just become a yoga teacher. But what happened was, that’s another clue from the universe that I got certified. mid December, it was December 17. And then January 1, like two weeks later, I got certified I got my yoga teacher certification. And then two weeks later, I got a notice from my company that I’m being laid off. And the whole team is being laid off, not just me. They lay off a lot of people it’s part of their downside was a process. And it was just our time, you know? And everybody was crying for my team, what am I going to do? Oh my God, my job, you know, they have mortgages, they have an I was relieved and I knew I was like, I see you universe, I see what’s happening here, I know that you’re telling me to go this way. And I never shed a tear. I never was upset, I felt so light.
Maha Bodhi 30:24
And you know, they give you a severance and they I’m like, I I’m like, All right, I just took that severance. And I ran and I never looked back. And I started building my yoga business and building my work and, and it just unfolded. You know, I just started just teaching yoga and yoga studio in a classroom. And then because I had a huge corporate network, you know, for my corporate life, my friends were uh, what is this yoga you speak of? Like, what are you teaching? Can you come into our company and maybe talk about it and, and share it. And as you know, my my background, being the leadership development, training, trainer and holding, you know, that classroom type of training. So I kind of bridge those two worlds together. And I created my own formula, which is, you know, just from different schools of thought. So I combined the ancient wisdom, healing yogic techniques, with the corporate, you know, cutting edge best practices and efficiency and agility. With the science of neuroplasticity, I created my own formula, I call it the high performance mind. And now I you know, I go to corporations, and I deliver trainings, I do one on one coaching, and I do inspirational, speaking engagements, where you saw me at the Women Business Summit, where I just talk about my background, and my experience. So that’s kind of how it’s shaped. And it’s, you know, from from trauma from a very intense, you know, difficult situation. So that’s why I always say, you know, these traumatic experiences, they can break you down, or they can break you open. And it’s really up to you. It’s your decision, what you make of it, the poet Rumi said, The wound is where the light enters you. And so are you going to open to the learning, instead of slipping into victim and being Why did this happen to me, you know, which one is better, like, think about it for a moment?
Victoria Volk 32:16
Well, and you might be there for a time, and it’s exactly what you’re, you’re gonna sit with all of that and the overwhelm of it all, but not to stay there. And, you know, just wake up and just choose better for yourself.
Maha Bodhi 32:29
It’s just what you touched upon what we call in yoga, a spiritual bypass, we don’t want to bypass that trauma or that difficult experience, you actually want to hold space for it and be a container. So you’re not dismissing that pain or dismissing that part of you, that’s when we create disconnect, you actually want to integrate all parts of you that it all belongs the wounded part of you, and the and the the inner child, part of you, you know, and even the parts of you that you don’t really like, you know, maybe it’s anger or jealousy, or you know, that part of you also belong, and the loving part of you and the light part of you all of it. And once you become whole, and that’s really when you tap into your full power and you’re able to live your whole life.
Victoria Volk 33:15
Do you seem to draw people to your work that have experienced trauma? And is that a big part of your yoga practice today? Like, do you work one on one with a lot of trauma?
Maha Bodhi 33:27
You know, it’s interesting, I’m not a therapist. So I don’t think it’s my place to do that. But I do notice that people gravitate towards me that not just people who went through trauma, anybody who wants to reach their fullest potential and highest expression, you know, the dreamers, you know, the rebels, the people who want to follow the path of least resistance, which I call like, go with the flow, you want to be in alignment with yourself, you want what you feel is in aligned with what you say, and what you do show up as your best self. And so those are the kinds of people you’d like I said, I’m not a therapist, even though I understand trauma very well. And I see I can see it very clearly in people but I don’t have the skill set to walk somebody through it in depth, they probably will be better served by seeking a professional.
Victoria Volk 34:14
I know that you you did a piece in an HBO documentary, do you want to speak to that a little bit?
Maha Bodhi 34:15
You know, that was kind of part of it’s still in production. It’s not out there yet. But what happened is that I did one of my inspirational speaking engagements in Beverly Hills and they there was a lot of media there and you know, production companies follow me and there are females on there called CTV and they reached out to me and they said, We want to film your story and they’re doing the HBO documentary, which is every episode is focused on one story, and they came to me and we filmed it and I don’t know where it is right now. It’s kind of still in production.
Victoria Volk 34:54
Well, if it comes out before you know the your episode actually airs. I’ll put that in the show. Let’s but yeah, please keep me up to date on that. Yeah, great. And what’s next for you.
Maha Bodhi 35:04
You know, I’m just, you know, I’m continuing to evolve and grow. In my work, I’m leading international yoga retreats, which are tremendously transformational, because you kind of step away from the noise of your day to day life. And you know, a retreat is to retreat within. And so we are away from all of that, and you’re in a new environment, and we do yoga twice a day. And I really have seen people transform in front of my eyes. And it’s truly magical, if you if you’re willing and open to allow healing to occur to allow transformation to occur. And I always say like, the more you’re willing to surrender, the degree of your surrender is equal to the degree of your success. And so the more you resist, you know, the more you get stuck, you know, emotions are energy in motion, right? They’re designed to come pass through and let go. And it’s when we hold on, it’s when we resist. And when we grip, and we become identified by that story in that pain, that’s when we get stuck. And really yoga is Mo moving your body, you’re literally expanding your body or stretching yourself. Because when you are in pain, you contract the body, right, you physically contract the body, you can see it, you make a fist with your head, you close your ribs, you’re fidgeting, you’re tensing the body, so the energy is not able to flow freely in the body. And yoga is kind of a counter for that. So you’re stretching your body, you’re breathing through the practice. And so you’re kind of releasing that energy. Now the breath is flowing in your body, now the blood is flowing in your body. When you’re doing that downward facing dog, your head is lower than your heart. So you’re kind of reversing the blood flow, the effects of gravity. And what happens is literally you’re optimizing all the systems in the body, you’re optimizing your nervous system, you’re optimizing the blood flow, the bread we talked about in the brain, the heart, all these things. And then when you’re in that state of expansion, you liberated that energy because it takes so much energy to kind of be caught up in your stress and in your pain and in your story. And when you freed up that energy, literally, I talked about embodying and now you’re embodying freedom in your in your body, you can do so much with that liberated energy and use it in a very useful way that benefits you and really benefits everyone around you in the greatest good.
Victoria Volk 37:35
Love. Do you offer online classes?
Maha Bodhi 37:39
I do Insight Timer on Sundays. That’s a year Neoga de stress and deep stretch. That’s the That’s my online class. And I do the high performance mind, you know that my my leadership trainings, I do that with corporations, but I also offer free master classes on a monthly basis. So every month we meet, and I give them kind of like a snippet of the highperformance mind masterclass. It’s all on yogimaha.com.
Victoria Volk 38:05
Okay, I will put that link in the show notes too. But I kind of want to dip back into the serious stuff a little bit again. I’m curious because of your experience with the traumatic experience that you had with marriage and being in that environment of arranged marriage. And so how has that shaped and I know that you’re a completely different person now than you were then. And so I think sometimes what happens is, well, what I’ve seen even for me personally, and people I’ve worked with and through grief, once you have dealt with all that emotional stuff and the trauma, you are changed by it right for the positive and you seem to then attract more of the same to you. Yeah. And so how has because I imagine if I would have experienced something like that, I would have been very cynical about love, right? Like, so how has that shaped you today? And how you know, and love and marriage.
Maha Bodhi 39:04
It does shape and I just want to say that when you heal, it’s not that that is completely gone. It’s not like that it’s disappeared. It’s just that you learn how to like we said hold space for it. So it’s not kind of blurring your vision. It’s not dominating your decision mechanism. So it’s not leading the way so you kind of see it you observe it, it’s there. I see you I know you’re still there. But but it’s okay. Kind of like a little child but it’s okay, we got this we can do this together. So I think that’s what’s healing. It’s that integration, that sense of wholeness. I did struggle a lot with relationships, you know, I’m not gonna lie to Victoria. I struggled a lot with intimacy, love and relationships, especially when it comes to dating. There is this kind of like fear but, you know, I think if you have to choose between love and fear, I think when in doubt, always choose love and always open up to love you can Can’t go wrong with love.
Victoria Volk 40:01
There’s the show, I’ve been kind of watching just like my secret indulgence, if you will, you know, it’s like this not trashy TV, but reality TV. But it’s called Love is blind, and I just find the, the, it’s an experiment in love, but you, you don’t meet the people, you just talk. And you build this emotional connection before you ever see them. And it really highlights how superficial of a society we really are, when we’re looking at appearances. And you can’t you don’t make a decision on love based on on, you know, race or background or any of those things. It’s just purely an emotional connection. And so can you speak to that for someone who may be struggling to build that emotional connection with someone? That’s a good lead to, by the way?
Maha Bodhi 40:59
That’s a very interesting question. You know, it’s kind of what you mentioned, this show that they kind of connect on an emotional level before they see each other before on a physical level, which is kind of like the opposite of what’s happening with dating apps these days, dating apps is purely based on looks purely based on that snippet like swipe, swipe, swipe super fast make that decision, I do think that I personally am that kind of person. With the advice that I can, I’m the kind of person that I would like to connect more like, I’d like to know someone more, it’s easier to open up. Because if you have these trust issues, like that’s what I struggled with, it’s when you have that background, like similar to me, what happens is that you don’t trust people, because the people that were supposed to love you unconditionally violated that trust. And then as you grow as an adult, it’s really difficult for you to, to find that trust again. Especially, you know, with a complete stranger, you know, if my parents didn’t love me and take care of me, how is a stranger gonna love me and take care of me. So I better watch out, right? That’s the mindset for me, if that’s something you’re struggling with, probably the dating apps are not going to be beneficial to you, I would say friendships, you probably want to lean into it through a friendship through somebody, you know, doing what you love. So when you do what you love, and you follow your bliss, like Joseph Campbell said, you’re gonna put yourself in situations to be surrounded with like minded people, and you’re going to attract like minded people. And so you’re going to meet those people. And it could start off as no colleagues or you know, friendship, like I said, and you start to have conversation, I feel that creates a safe environment, to open up to somebody and be more trustful. And I know that’s a slower pace than, you know what our society teaches us the swipe, swipe, swipe, but I think it’s a very healthy way. And it’s also more authentic, and it’s probably going to be a more lasting relationship. You know, when I started I, I was working right in the corporate world, and I wanted and I just decided to be a yogi and I just made this huge transformation that literally my friends were worried about me, they were, you know, they were doing interventions like what are you, okay, like, who leaves their corporate job with all the benefits and the big salaries in the fancy offices, and you know, and health insurance and all that stuff, and then you just go live on a yoga teacher salary, and they thought I was crazy, right? They were worried about me, are you okay? Literally, I would get text message, are you okay? And that was a little bit isolating for me, you know, I felt like no one understood me. But when you chew, and it takes a lot of willpower, because the calling was so big for me, like my North Star was so big that the obstacles were small in comparison to the North Star. And so I followed through my passion. And, you know, I started to share it with the world and I start to use my voice and speak up, even though it was a big risks. You know, everybody’s telling me, I’m crazy. And I’m going out there and sharing it with the world. What happened is that people that are like me, started to see themselves in me and started to rally around me. And so that’s called community. So I started to build community. And I started to be surrounded by like minded people, just because I decided to do what I love. And I followed my calling. So the goal was not to meet people. The goal was not to create community. I just felt this calling and I followed my bliss. And then that cascade leads to other things, that leads so that’s kind of my advice to people is just do what you love and the right people will find you
Victoria Volk 44:41
Follow what lights you up. Right? Exactly. Well, that’s a great tip that takes care of that one question I was going through all of this, what is your grief taught you?
Maha Bodhi 44:51
You know, I like I said, my parents are still alive. But what I had to learn is I had to learn on how to support myself, I had to learn how to self regulate. And what you know, that’s me. And then literally, I had when you have nowhere to go, you go inside, that’s what happened to me like my when your face is like in the wall, there was nowhere to go but inside. And so I went inside, and I did the self work. And I did the self study, which allowed me to learn how to be my own best friend, and be my parent that I never had, and be my greatest coach and be my best friend, and be my greatest lover. So I was able to be all these things. And it’s not an easy journey. But it is such a powerful journey, the results are truly incredible. And so that’s when you become whole. And that wholeness allowed me to be a better friend for other people, a better lover for another person. And so now I have because my cup is so full, I’m able to give from my overflow, when your cup is empty, you’re no good for anybody around you. And so now I’m able to be compassionate, really, and see people when they’re suffering and just hold space for them, and not try to fix it really, I try not to slip into preacher or teacher mode or try to, you know, I’ll show you how to fix this, you know, just by holding space for somebody, people want to be seen people want to be heard. People want to be valued. And so I would say that’s what it taught me. And I think that’s a very powerful capability to have.
Victoria Volk 46:41
Absolutely agree. What gives you the most joy and hope for the future for your future.
Maha Bodhi 46:46
I feel I’m on the right path, I feel I’m on the right place and at the right time. And I feel the more I do this work, the stronger my relationship with my gut feeling is. And so sometimes it doesn’t make sense the decisions that I make, like from an external perspective, from an intellectual perspective, which our culture is very intellectual, and I know that my gut will never lie to me. And so I feel very optimistic because I see that relationship continues to grow and grow. And I trust it more. So I’m really looking forward to the future.
Victoria Volk 47:20
And I think that happens as we start to dig away and just clear away all of that stuff. We win
Maha Bodhi 47:28
The noise and the stories. Yeah,
Victoria Volk 47:31
A lot easier to tap into our intuition when we are able to do that. I think
Maha Bodhi 47:36
I’m writing my memoir, like I mentioned, and that’s been such a cathartic experience for me. And I’m really excited to share that with the world. Do you have a launch date? Yeah, no, I think by end of this year, okay. Yes.
Victoria Volk 47:50
I’m really excited about that for that. Yeah. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
Maha Bodhi 47:55
I don’t, I want to say to people, don’t give away your power, you are so much more powerful than you think you are. And if you don’t believe me, just sit quietly and listen, listen to the voice that is inside of you. And, you know, I’m a meditation teacher, and a yoga teacher and all these tools and techniques. They’re all just designed to quiet down the noise in your head. So you’re able to see things clearly to hear things clearly. And that alone is such a powerful technique. You know, Victoria, I just saw this documentary. It’s an old documentary, there’s this experiment in a prison in Atlanta or Alabama, I’m sorry, one of those. It’s a prison. It’s a maximum security prison. And it’s like the most the worst prison in the United States. And they started to deliver Vipassana meditation, which is a silent 10 day meditation. It’s it’s the most intense program that anyone can go through to be silent for 10 days. And they did it in Alabama. And you know, it’s a it was a very Christian place, and there was a lot of resistance. But, you know, somehow, you know, they rolled out the program. And these prisoners are murderers are the worst kind of people you can imagine did horrific things. And they did this 10 day meditation of being silent and completely transformed. Like you can see their faces light up, you see them talk before how angry they were. And then there’s just like this pure peace in their face, just because they were able to quiet their head and drop into the body and identify the sensations of the body that are invoking this kind of reaction, this reactive place. And so they just learned how to be in their body and how to manage their body and manage their reaction and realize that it’s just a chemical reaction and I have the power. You know, I own my body. My body doesn’t own me. I own my brain. My brain does An own mean, I own my emotions. My emotions don’t own me. So that’s a very empowering tool. And your listeners are no, they’re not murderers, they’re not you know, so their journey can be so much easier and they don’t even need to do a 10 day silent meditation. Just sit quietly five minutes a day, 10 minutes a day journal, reflect, go inside self study, the more you get to know yourself, the better you’re able to serve yourself and serve other people.
Victoria Volk 50:28
Yeah. Kristin Sherry has said she’s one of my mentors. She said, the more you know yourself, the more the less you look to others to tell you who you are.
Maha Bodhi 50:37
Exactly. The less validation you need from others.
Victoria Volk 50:41
Yeah, I’m going to try and find that documentary you’re talking about and
Maha Bodhi 50:45
it’s on YouTube yet. Okay, too. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 50:49
I’ll have to look that up. Thank you so much for sharing your story, which is incredible. We truly live in a very blessed country. And it we are so lucky that I take it so for granted. Yeah, sure. Yes. Thank you so much again, and you’re welcome idea. And remember, when you unleash your heart you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Mental Health, Parenting, Podcast |
Jill Johnson-Young | Rebellious Widow x2
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY
I asked this week’s guest, Jill Johnson-Young, the following question:
“How are you still upright?”
@RebelliousWidow experienced the loss of Linda, her first love, after 23 years. Linda had survived breast cancer but later succumbed to pulmonary fibrosis which was due to the chemo she received to beat the breast cancer.
Jill would find herself, what she calls, a “rebellious widow” once more after her love, Casper, died of Lewy Body Dementia after 3 1/2 years.
The capacity to love is plentiful in Jill’s heart, along with Linda and Casper, who were also co-parents in their own time, to at-risk children who needed it most; children who had experienced grief and trauma, too. Jill weaves in stories of being an adoptive parent throughout this episode, providing tips and guidance in supporting grieving children.
We are all “built” differently. Our environments, family unit, generational beliefs passed down, personal experience, our own uniqueness, and more all add to the tapestry of our lives. And, altogether greatly influence how we respond to grief and trauma.
Growing up within a family unit that openly talked about death, dying, and grief at the kitchen table, Jill learned valuable lessons that would shape her path forward as a clinical social worker and set her up to embrace the grief that was to come rather than run from it.
We talk about so many areas of grief and loss, as it pertains to children, death and dying, hospice/palliative care, boundaries, and the how of getting through it all.
We are taught how to acquire things/people, not what to do when we lose them. Let this episode bring hope to your sorrowful heart if you are grieving today.
As Jill states, “You can still go to Disney if you’re grieving!”
RESOURCES:
CONTACT:
______
NEED HELP?
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
- Crisis Text Line provides free, 24/7 support via text message. Text HOME to 741741 to connect with a trained Crisis Counselor
Free grief resources are HERE.
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
💛 FREE Energy Type Quiz ➡️ HERE ⬅️
SUPPORT THE SHOW:
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of theunleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate gravers and non Grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with yours in this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in to grieving voices. This week. I have Jill Johnson young she is a licensed clinical social worker, former hospice social worker and administrator and co founded a large group private practice in Riverside in Marietta, California. She also teaches courses for therapists and allied health professionals on grief and loss and dementia and is the author of five books for adults and children on grief. She also provides a free monthly dementia support group online, and does a Facebook group chat with Deborah Joy Hart every Friday at 10am. Pacific Time, chills, all grief and loss and dementia with a smile and a positive outlook after being widowed twice and finding your own new life twice. She is now married to a funeral home Director. Thank you so much for being here. And for for having me. Yeah, you have a book though. You’re the rebellious widow all the time. Yeah. And it’s a practical guide to love and life after loss. And so let’s I imagine that’s what brings you to grieving voices. And
Jill Johnson 2:05
Is indeed I reached out because I saw and heard your podcast. And I love having a chance to share the story. And the idea that grief is something you can come out of and come on come out on the other side and make really good positive changes as a result of it. And still keep your loved one with you.
Victoria Volk 2:26
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a death sentence for the ones still living, right?
Jill Johnson 2:31
It doesn’t it’s not Rose Kennedy that quote that she has is just mash. Is that me every time I hear it.
Victoria Volk 2:38
And what is that? Again?
Jill Johnson 2:39
She has a quote this says something about love. His grief is the measure of your love. And you will grieve forever if you love them. And that’s just not true. I mean, it can be if you choose to, but it doesn’t have to be true.
Victoria Volk 2:56
Well, the thing about that quote is, is that not all relationships are loving. But that doesn’t mean you don’t experience grief in less than loving relationships. In fact, they’re the ones that artists Yes, absolutely. That is a true testament to loving those that are hard to love. Right?
Jill Johnson 3:18
Right. Or he didn’t ever love us in the way that we needed them to.
Victoria Volk 3:22
Exactly. Yeah, right. I think we’re on the same page there for sure. Let’s dig into it. What’s what is your story?
Jill Johnson 3:30
Well, I was married to Linda for 23 years, and she had breast cancer in the first 10 years. We were told in an honor July morning after a routine mammogram. Ladies don’t forget your mammogram routine mammogram, something the size of a piece sitting on her chest wall was stage three with 14 positive notes. She had a mammogram they did an ultrasound they called in a surgeon right that in their care that you don’t get anymore. And within a month she’d had a mastectomy. She’d asked for bilateral the surgeon refused. She asked for a port in that surgery because she knew I worked for hospice at the time I took her scans to our doc. We knew it was serious. The surgeon wouldn’t do it. So she had to have two surgeries in the space of five days. We would see the oncologist behind his back because he wouldn’t release her oncology because he said she’s not going to need chemo. Yet 14 positive notes folks, you need chemo. And the oncologist looked at us and said, Yeah, I’m gonna throw everything at this but you’re gonna be dead by December. And you sort of feel like the floor pulls out from under you that date of diagnosis is a real thing. There’s two DL DS in our world. The date you get the diagnosis and the date they die. And so we went to work they did throw everything at her she had to work all the way through chemo. because we lived in Florida at the time, and we didn’t have benefits that we could cover each other. She went back to work two days after that mastectomy with the drains in place, and she was a warrior. And she beat the cancer, she died cancer free. What she didn’t do, right, and she was so proud of that. So proud of it. What you didn’t do was beat the pulmonary fibrosis, which was brought on by the chemotherapy, which was absolutely necessary and gave us 10 more years we would have been, and time to adopt our kids. And you know, time to have another full half of our life together. But ultimately, one of the medicines that she was given causes loss of heart and lung function. And she died of pulmonary fibrosis, fibrosis and heart failure. After 20, close to 23 years, we were just shy of that. She was 58 years old. And while she was dying, she was on hospice, because I was a hospice social worker. And of course, we’re going to have hospice, and we’re gonna have it sooner than later. Because I’m a hospice social worker. And I asked for hospice, one of her nurses was very unique. She walked up to our door the first day, and she had a very deep southern drawl. And she said, my name is Casper. I’m your hospice nurse. I thought oh my god, the Friendly Ghost is now the hospice nurse and this crazy house with two kids a third, we were in the process of adopting at 16. You know, I don’t know how many cats and dogs and other creatures we had in the house. Okay, now we’ve got the Friendly Ghost this fits. They turned out to be good friends. They hung out together. Casper came over while I was at work. I didn’t even know about it. They had the same background. They drank the same icky, horrible chocolate sodas. They were two peas in a pod. And ultimately, before Linda died, she told everybody who would listen that she wanted me to marry Casper after death. And I kept saying, Yeah, Fantasy Island was canceled. Except now it’s back. Did you know that there’s a new fantasy island? Yes. And
Jill Johnson 7:14
We’ve all said no, she died a very peaceful death, which I’m very grateful for. And Casper was there attending at the time she died. And I broke all the widow rules. We went out for coffee. It turned out when there was right. We ended up married. I lost some people because every time someone dies, you lose people. You don’t just lose the person who dies, you lose other people that either disappeared during the illness because terminal illness is scary. Or they disappear and vote with their feet because they don’t like a grief. You’re not doing you’re doing it too fast, too slow to this not enough of that. They disappear. They vote with their feet. But when you’re a widow when you remarry, yeah, they really vote with their feet. And Casper and I were married and we had a wonderful time together. And then six months in, we were on a Lanai in Hawaii, and she threw her coffee cup. And she’d had weird dreams that night. And coffee time in our house is sacrosanct. Right? You don’t interrupt it. You don’t speak for the first cup, and there goes the coffee cup. And I said what was that? And she said, I don’t know. My hand did that by itself. And that was Lily by dementia announcing itself. So she was having psychotic episodes immediately. She was having memory loss. She lost her ability to smile almost immediately. Lewy body comes on like gangbusters, especially early onset. And so she she and I spent almost three years looking for doctors looking for the right diagnosis. I finally suggested the diagnosis to the doctor. And he agreed that it was Lewy body. We looked at the scans, you could see the Lewy bodies on the brainstem. And she died within three and a half years. And her death was not peaceful. And part of the people who stuck in there with me to help take care of her. And who took care of Linda, she met with Linda and me to make her final arrangements came in took Linda from our home after she died. She also made arrangements for Casper was Stacy, a funeral director. And she also saw my posts I wrote blogs the whole time they were sick and dying. Because I didn’t have time to talk to people. Right? I’m a therapist as social worker. I don’t know any therapists who talk on the phone voluntarily after hours anyway. I won’t. Unless it’s my mom or my kids. The phone is not going to get answered. So Stacy started seeing how hard things were sort of coming by in the evenings so I could take a nap. We had Casper his brother Jay staying with us and he was helping and then I would stay up all night with her because she wasn’t safe and ultimately after caspers death, Stacy and I married. And so it makes me rebellious, but sometimes to wow, wow, we do grief and loss all the time. Some of our date nights were in the prep room. So yeah,
Victoria Volk 10:16
You know, interesting life, we here have I, first of all, to love once and lose that person as one thing. But to love twice and lose both, that’s an entirely different experience that I don’t know anything about. And so it stinks. But you know, what I can’t imagine,
Jill Johnson 10:39
To have been loved that intensely twice. And then a third time, I mean, very few people find the kind of love that I had with either one of them. And I’ve had three i no complaints, and each one of them set me off into my next life. Literally,
Victoria Volk 10:58
That’s what I was gonna. That’s what I was gonna say. It’s like, you hear stories and like, the choices and decisions we make often lead to the next thing that we can’t even often see the future. We don’t even anticipate or expect it, but, but I’ve never heard it with relationships like that kind of happening in that way. And so that’s pretty remarkable and stars aligned.
Jill Johnson 11:24
They did. They did I, neither one of them would have wanted me to be alone, as Linda was especially adamant. Because she just did, I had three teenage girls, they were a year apart. I was in the middle of adopting a 16 year old. So yeah, she knew that that help was needed. And she knew the kids like Casper,
Victoria Volk 11:46
And how did you manage their emotions and your emotions in Linda’s emotions as she knew what was coming in caspers emotions? Because, you know, obviously, I’m sure that the children were very familiar with Casper and a part of her life as well. And so it’s not just your loss twice.
Jill Johnson 12:07
Oh no, there were multiple losses for all of us. Yeah. And the reason I was adopted my 16 year old is, she’s the half sibling to my youngest. And their birth mother had died in the fall before. And we discovered she was back in foster care in LA. And so we took placement of her. And then the very much wanted to adopt her, she was on the bucket list. So she was placed with for placed with us for adoption, before Linda’s death. And then I adopted her as a single parent. So there were lots of emotions. And in our house, we talked really openly when it comes to death and dying. The kids had already lost grandparents, my 16 year old had lost both of her parents, she was an orphan, when she was placed with me. So it was a no secrets, no holds barred. We did have some behavior from a couple of them. But the behavior preceded all of this.
Victoria Volk 13:04
I mean, can you imagine? I mean, yeah, you know, you kind of got to give some grace there. It’s like, you know, pain and anger and, and hurt and all of that you expect that there’s going to be some sort of way to channel all of that.
Jill Johnson 13:18
The weird part was after Linda died, before the kids knew that Casper and I were secretly dating, I would go to work, and I taught classes in the evening. So I get home at like 10 o’clock at night. And her car would be out front. And I didn’t even know she was there. And I’d walk in and she had this funny smirk on her face. And she said, yeah, they called so there was a medical emergency. And the medical emergencies were a tummy ache. Or a friend had a medical crisis. And they needed Casper to come over and counsel the friend. And what they were doing was testing her because she’d said openly to Linda, I am not promising anything other than I will stand by your family after your death. And so they tested and tested and tested. And they were pretty secure with her before they realized we were dating. They knew they could count on her. And that was a huge blessing that they did it on their own.
Victoria Volk 14:22
Right. And I think no children often do that to you. They do and they’ll test to feel to see well. How are you going to match your words with your actions? Right.
Jill Johnson 14:35
Right. And then the acting out ones would would truly act out and she would put on that very southern bush. You know, you did what? Right, and give them the look. And yeah, there was a whole new behavior pattern of okay, I need to change this up. Because there’s somebody else watching too. She has more energy than mom does right now. Just so yeah, it was it worked out. And they were my oldest child still uses caspers name in a lot of places and online because she was very, very loyal to her. And it wasn’t that she wasn’t loyal to her first mom. Right. And then they all lost their birth parents, of course. So my kiddos know how to do grief and loss, but they do it with grace.
Victoria Volk 15:28
And probably better than most adults, way better than most adults. The funny part is my and I and I don’t want to say better, I want to say healthier, maybe in a healthier way.
Jill Johnson 15:40
They’re able to talk about death, they’re able to talk about grief. They’re able to support people who’ve had losses. My little one now lives in Kansas, and will text me and say, Mom, so and so has something going on. Can Can you give me some things to say to her? And I told her about you? And can she call you and they’re not afraid to jump in? My middle one just finished her Master’s. So she’s working on her LMFT license now. And she took the grief and loss class in her school and didn’t tell me. I said no. Why didn’t you tell me? She said because I knew what you’d say. I said, Let me guess they did five stages. And she said, That’s all they did, mom. And I said, What did you say? She said, I realized I could talk back and not graduate. Or I could absorb it and then tell my friends what was real outside of class. And so that is what she settled on. Right? So she’s gonna be a really terrific therapist, hopefully for foster kids. Just her goal, which is working with another kind of loss. Right?
Victoria Volk 16:46
Right. Yeah, I was even gonna ask you if any of them are have goals of following in your footsteps. But there you go.
Jill Johnson 16:52
Charity hit that goal before she arrived. She she’d been in group home care and foster care. She wants to make a difference in that way. A little one is going to be a nurse hopefully, and Linda steps, Casper steps. And our eldest is a super helper at home, and works first part time in my office and helps care for my elderly mom.
Victoria Volk 17:16
Which is another
Jill Johnson 17:17
Caregiving 101. Well and brief. Yeah.
Victoria Volk 17:22
So how are you still sitting upright?
Jill Johnson 17:26
I have a great sense of humor. And I have an outlook that is probably more positive than most. But I really see grief and loss as a place of growth. You know, I don’t want anyone to sit in grief. I don’t It’s not healthy. It causes premature death. Yep, it causes illness. It’s it’s not good for us. And it doesn’t. In the way I see the world do much for maintaining the memory of the person who died in a positive way. I get to talk about Linda and Casper, you know, frequently, their pictures or in the classes that I teach. When I talk about approaching death. Their stories are in my books. The poodles are to for that matter, and they get to stay with me in an active way, but in a healthy active way.
Victoria Volk 18:30
So for those listening, who weren’t set up, right, emotionally to endure all of this loss that you had, but you had this education and this background and this knowledge to support you. You had resources at your disposal, support, possibly that many people may not have. What do you say to those people listening?
Jill Johnson 18:57
You know, I get those questions all the time because of my presence on social media. And number one, if you were in the last process, ask for help raise that white flag, identify where those people are, because there’s usually one or two helpers lurking that we don’t even recognize, bring them into your circle and make them part of us. Wow, you know, lean on the people who were there. Do some journaling so that you have a place to put the emotions and where you can also start to reorganize your life. And in the loss process when you are grieving. Again, look for other people who have a positive outlook that you can not so much latch onto but partner up with someone who can just hear you talk about what happened. Look for someone who can help you understand what you’ve been through because frequently The End far more frequently these days, which I don’t understand. People are not being told their loved one is dying. They’re not being prepared. They’re not being taught with the dying process looks like. That’s a huge issue. It’s a letdown. It’s a secondary loss. And if ever, there’s a cause for anger that burns, that’s the one. And it doesn’t have to be there. Hospice referrals are being made two days or a day before death. In general. I just got my former brother in law into hospice last week. And it happened because I had places that I could pull, right, and I pulled out all the stops, called directors, one to one, I need this hospice for him, I need these things. Most people don’t have that. So find the helpers, and find the people in the same spaces, who are in a healthy grief process. I look at grief as giving you the the best card in the world to throw down which is I’m grieving, you don’t get to tell me what to do. I’m going to decide what my life is going to look like now. Because I just had a major loss. And it doesn’t have to be a spouse, it could be any loss. That could be your number one pet, especially if you’re a solo individual, that pet is your heart. And when that pet dies, you’ve lost the person who meets you when you come home at night. Right or the person you wake up to just like a spouse. So you get to throw that card down. And say it’s my turn to decide where I want to go with my life.
Victoria Volk 21:45
I’m going to put you on the spot, because I can I can put myself in the shoes of a new graver who’s listening to this. So I’m listening to you and you’re telling me not to stay in my grief. Right? It’s not healthy. It’s and then you’re telling me to seek help? And then you’re telling me to? And I going somewhere with this? I’m not? Yeah, yeah, cuz I’m on the same page as you keep. So I keep because I can just see the eye rolls. Someone who is listening, where it’s like, it’s not like we’re telling them what to do, but you’re not telling them what to do or how to grieve. And you can tell somebody, you don’t have to stay in that place. How do you help somebody see in themselves, like someone listening to this? That yes, you can grieve your grieve your own way. But how do you get to that point? Where Enough is enough? How do you see that? It’s just been this has been way too long. Like I’ve been feeling this way, way too long. Right? Because you and I are in the same space. Right? Right. Get to the other side of this. You don’t have to suffer
Jill Johnson 23:10
But not in a hurry and on your own schedule.
Victoria Volk 23:13
Right. But how much time because I was 30 plus your griever or before I woke up before I re-wave the white flag. I mean, I try I waved the white flag but you know, a few times and it didn’t work for me whatever I tried. So you know that kind of you give up then. Right? Right? Do you think this is just how it is? This is what I guess this is what life is like? And so you give up in a way? What do you say to someone to help them see that what they’re losing is more precious is just creating more suffering, because they’re losing their own time. They’re losing their own time. Like I lost a lot of time in my life.
Jill Johnson 24:00
In giving up all their energy to grief. Yeah, instead of being able to invest in others and themselves. And relationships. Yeah, right. And, and so we talk about where does your energy go? And is that really where you want it to be? If you’re seeking help, from me, that means that you have a change you want to make. And I also really am clear that when I talk about finishing grief, and it’s finishing that relationship with that person, it’s finishing all the undone stuff. And if you’ve waited 30 years to do it, or six months to do it. There’s stuff left. Right. I had a lot more stuff left with Casper because she had dementia. So we had some time to talk but we had a much shorter relationship. So there’s a lot more left to do. Linda and I had a full and complete relationship. And we had three years to get ready for our day. Death, so we could talk and we did all night, every night. She was a networker. So we had that time. So what I say is, let’s look at where your energy is going. Let’s look at what you really want for the rest of your life. And let’s look at how you want to honor your loved one. In your new life you didn’t ask for because you’re taking them with you. We don’t leave them behind us. They sit right with us. That’s why I reference Casper and Linda being in my books and in my education programs, because they go with they’re not my primary relationship, but they’re always there.
Victoria Volk 25:44
That original connection does
Jill Johnson 25:46
Is always going to be there. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that’s not to dis stay. See. That’s to say, there’s space for everybody. You know, it’s not a pie. Everybody’s got space. Grievers want to hear that I’m not expecting and somebody else is not expecting them to stop loving, or caring or remembering the person who died. Because that’s the scary part in my experience. No, I don’t want to give them up. You’re not going to.
Victoria Volk 26:15
And it’s also not about condoning whatever it is that happened to them. That is creating the grief in their life of a less than loving relationship to it goes both ways. Yeah.
Jill Johnson 26:26
Right. Right. It’s it’s, I work with lots of people who’ve had desperate parents who weren’t even present. And that’s made it so conflictual for them because they’re losing the potential of ever having that relationship. And then certainly the ones who’ve had abusive relationships, or chronically awful relationships, those things are things that need to be worked through. Because otherwise they stay with that relationship. And you can’t finish.
Victoria Volk 26:57
So what do you say? Because I see this and I hear this a lot too, in the grief space online and things with Grievers is that I don’t need to dig up the past.
Jill Johnson 27:07
I look at what past is still there? Yeah, so we work on, make a list, make bubbles, make whatever you want, however, you want to construct it. Show me this relationship you had all the things that took place that are still in your head? All the good. Right? What’s the good? Even if it’s just they gave birth to me? And I eventually got to another family. Right? Tell me the good. And then tell me the conflict. Tell me the stuff that was bad. And let’s finish that stuff. Let’s work on figuring out what you wanted to say to them. And what apologies they owed you? Or are you conflicted because of the way they died? And you feel like you have some apologies to make yourself? Did you guys have a conflictual relationship and you had a fight? Just before they got into that car accident? There’s some stuff there too, that needs to be worked out.
Victoria Volk 28:09
I’m just curious, did you happen to go through the Grief Recovery method?
Jill Johnson 28:14
I went through the two and a half day intensive. I use some of their materials. I don’t agree with all of it. But I like a lot of it. But through with Russell.
Victoria Volk 28:23
Okay. So yeah.
Jill Johnson 28:25
But it’s it’s like a lot of it. Some of the stuff they talk about in terms of avoiding grief, or they still live by the rule of you need to wait a year before there’s a new relationship. And that’s not the experience that research bears out. For people who’ve lost a partner after long term illness. The research says the opposite of that.
Victoria Volk 28:52
Actually, I actually don’t know, that wasn’t in my trading.
Jill Johnson 28:56
That was what that was part of his training. So he and I had a go around on that one. So be about an hour over lunch one day. So yeah, these parts of it, don’t use parts of it. I use the companioning stuff. Mostly, I do a lot of news, a lot of research on what it is that Grievers say that they need and what helps them get to the other side. And so part of that is really excellent stuff. So what are some of those things? The finishing parts, that is part of their language, it’s also part of the companioning language. And I really like the you really don’t have to agree forever. Because so many grief leaders who are therapists won’t let go that language they still maintain it. And then they say they don’t and then you watch a video and there they are saying it again. And those are powerful words and they hurt people.
Victoria Volk 29:54
Yeah, I actually I had to put in my two cents on a post I saw once where the person who counsels people in grief had shared something to the effect, how they don’t use the words healing, or recovery or things like that. And I thought, wow, that’s really a disservice to people, because then they believe that how they’re feeling is really, that’s how just the how they’re always gonna feel like that it’s not, that’s forever for them. Yeah, you’re telling someone that it’s not possible. And I as a rebellious type of person to you, too, it’s like, don’t tell me what’s impossible.
Jill Johnson 30:36
Don’t tell me I’m gonna feel like this for the rest of my life. Right? Right. When I have a new client come in now, generally, they find me. And so they already know that I’m that rebellious widow. And they, you can see my writings and hear me on podcasts and things. So they find somebody that that matches where they want to be. But they’re still got people in their ear. Lots of them saying, Oh, no, if you stop grieving, it means you didn’t love them enough, you aren’t being loyal to them, you’re moving too fast. That means you didn’t care enough. It might mean that I’m just freaking exhausted. Right? Caregivers get tired. And if you’re one of those people who has been a caregiver, and you’re listening, I get that you are tired. And however you want to take care of you and regain your energy and your strength, you do that. And set the boundaries around the people who want to tell you what to do. Grief work is so much about boundaries,
Victoria Volk 31:35
Boundaries, oh my god, right.
Jill Johnson 31:37
It’s all the boundaries. And that’s kind of what’s missing wrestle kind of implies it. And John kind of applies it, but I’m all about the K rails, you put those K rails three Hi. And you don’t let other people tell you how you’re going to do this or what the outcome is going to be. It’s your choice.
Victoria Volk 31:54
I naturally found my boundaries and where I didn’t have them and how to do that. Because of Grief Recovery. You know, because of that. It Yeah, it was huge for me. I want to get your thoughts on this because the grief space. I’ll just say on Instagram particular. It’s really kind of heartbreaking for me.
Jill Johnson 32:15
Oh, try Pinterest. Really? Oh, oh. When I did that episode, I say go right this minute, pull your phones out. Go to go to Pinterest and tell me and put the word grief in it. Tell me what you see. And it’s Rose Kennedy all over the place. And grief is a measure of your love and you’re going to and then there’s these therapists who say you’re going to you’re going to grieve for half as long as that relationship well holy crap if we were married 50 years I had no hope. Wow, this there’s there isn’t a diagram and there’s no formula. Stop it. Yeah, they’re all horrible about that. So yeah, I’m sorry to interrupt but yeah, the two of them are like neck and neck with horrible.
Victoria Volk 33:00
Yeah, I’m not I’m not really on Pinterest. But yeah, I It’s so heartbreaking for me, because I see so many new Grievers are newer Grievers. And they’re on there and they start an account and they’re Yes, share, openly communicate how you’re feeling. I’m a huge proponent of community like getting it out there like having an outlet for that. But it’s what is it? Does that feed into like the response and the reaction? Does that feed into that? Perpetual Sorrow? Does, like how does that move you forward? You’re it’s almost as if I’ve said this before on other podcast episodes, it’s almost as if the with COVID, especially like the in person support groups that don’t have like an action plan or moving you forward have moved online.
Jill Johnson 33:54
And they’re so devastatingly awful for people?
Victoria Volk 33:58
Yes that’s what they are stuck.
Jill Johnson 34:01
I tell therapists that I’m training you need to lurk in the grief support groups. And you know, first ask permission, of course to get in, but follow them see which ones are healthy because they change personalities, like, weekly monthly, one that’s healthy now is completely unhealthy three weeks later, because somebody jumps in there and starts attacking everybody. And so they leave and the attacker stays. Yeah, it’s it can be a very unhealthy space.
Victoria Volk 34:30
So how can can you communicate then with listeners how to discern where is the healthy space to be online? Like how to discern that for themselves? What is What are the markers or what is that? What are the things to look for in a healthy green space online?
Jill Johnson 34:48
In general, if you’re going into general grief spaces, because there are those that are specific to specific losses, but in any of those spaces, you’re looking for one where if someone says I’m having a good day. Or I really want to feel better, or someone give me some ideas about how I can. Where they’re the healthy ones are people who support them in wanting to make change the unhealthy ones, they are all in on, what are you talking about, you’re not being loyal to your loved one, you’re, you’re not going to feel better. This is what grief is this is, this is how we hold on to their memory, you’re looking for the ones who won’t allow for growth. And then I want you to run from them. And go to another one where there is room for growth. And there are some, right, those groups split frequently, I, I get to be in all the groups because I’ve had so many losses. And so I’m in the parent loss support group, because I’ve lost my dad, and I’m in the widows and I’m in the lesbian widows, I’m in all the groups. There’s a lesbian widows group that just split into three groups. Because one group wants to stay in the unhealthy you have to grieve space. And one group wants to include more a more broad and more general group of people. And one group wants to keep it just this space. So it’s easy to lose groups. And that’s another loss. Look for the healthy ones.
Victoria Volk 36:24
Because you develop connections and with people and you know, it can be one comment that just right social media can be hard, brutal, and heartwarming. Yeah, I can. Yeah. I I’m a huge proponent to just like, really, I think too. And you can agree or disagree. But as you start working through the layers, like you really start to come back to your own intuition and your own sense of agency. Do you agree?
Jill Johnson 36:52
I absolutely agree.
Victoria Volk 36:54
Yeah I just what I found from you take you back. Yeah.
Jill Johnson 36:58
And you take the cube back. When you’re doing grief work, one of the things that I like to do with people, when I do groups is we spend that last day working on a where am I going now board? Not a vision board? Because those have, you know, those are usually money and big things? Who did you use to be before all of this? And what parts of that you do you want back? What did you want to do when you were five years old? I maybe went horseback riding as a kid and you haven’t done it since then. Do want to get back on a horse. You get to decide where you get to go, and what brings you joy now. And you get to go find that and do that and not listen to those who tell you you can’t have joy? Because you should be able to.
Victoria Volk 37:45
That’s one of my questions. And I’ll ask that at the end. But I want to kind of start at the beginning of your story. And as a child, because your grief didn’t just start with the passing of Linda and I’m sure of it. So no, no. What who was Jill before you became a licensed social worker and like, how did you come to be?
Jill Johnson 38:12
And I grew up. I grew up in a family where I had the oldest dad in the classroom. Right? Everyone sort of thought he was grandpa. He’s 10 years older than my mom. And so I had a lot of older relatives because everyone in his family had large spans between spouses. Right. And so with that, there were lots of people who died, and lots of deaths and illnesses. And in my family, it was the norm to attend those and to bring the children. My mom was a preacher’s kid from way back when my dad was a farm kid. Death was part of life. And so you did it together as a family. I am so I would I took a quarter off of college when my dad sister was dying. It was a beloved aunt, and was there at the hospital with her. And when my grandmother’s were dying. My grandfather’s you did that as a family. When a pet died, you had a funeral. Right? When a pet had a birthday, you had a birthday party. That was not farm kid. That was California kids, right? The state differences. There’s a picture of me when I was little conducting a funeral with the neighborhood kids for some creature that we’d apparently found dead on the sidewalk or something. We live on a hillside and that was part of life for us. So death wasn’t scary. Grief was normal. You You grieve people and then you reemerged from it. When my mom’s dad died, that my grandparents lived in a senior community with little patio homes. And about a month after my grandfather’s death She said, We got to change this up. So we went over there. We pulled her table outside, we took invitations to probably 50 people, the community, and we had tea, and desserts out on her patio and reintroduced grandma, to the community as Lily, Lily and Elmer because that was part of life. That’s really what shaped me, I became the first social worker for our local AIDS Project, way back in the day, I was there before we had a quilt. And before Ryan White, we used to take our, our clients from hospitals to a shelter because their families wouldn’t take them. And we would lose them within two weeks to four months. So it was constant loss. And you had to learn to surf the losses, and grieve together and laugh together and move into the next one. And from there, it just stuck. I did CPS, for what for a long time, which is in child welfare is all the losses. My kids are all adopted lots of losses there. And then hospice is where I where my heart lives. And that’s why I do grief and loss work. Because, you know, if I could still be on the road as a hospice social worker, I probably would. But I can’t. And I think I have a bigger impact with what I’m doing now.
Victoria Volk 41:23
Wow that’s Yeah, I think often our professions and where we find ourselves in life is a reflection of our childhoods, yes. Through what we’ve experienced and endured, and really to, like you said, what was normalized for us? You know, you found that that’s a gift that you can give others is to normalize it for other people, as much as it absolutely is.
Jill Johnson 41:51
Yeah. My mom was the caregiver for all the grandparents. She took care of every one of them, except for my grandfather, who died very suddenly, before I was born. And my grandmother on my mom’s side was a nurse. And my grandparents ran a nursing home for many years. So I think it’s probably genetic.
Victoria Volk 42:11
Do you think a lot of the issues we face today in Death and Dying is that there is this separatism that is created? You know, even just like you, okay, you’re married to a funeral director, right? Like, we are so separated from death, like we we hand it off to someone else to take care of the details. They die in the hospital or in the nursing home by themselves often, especially in COVID.
Jill Johnson 42:41
Now, that is not healthy.
Victoria Volk 42:42
Horrible. It’s horrible. It’s horrible. for everybody involved.
Jill Johnson 42:46
It absolutely is.
Victoria Volk 42:48
And so what’s the trade off here that we’re giving? Like, what is this? We are gonna I don’t believe we’re going to know really the true impact of this for probably another five to seven years? If, yeah, I, you know, and especially with hospice, which isn’t really a resource that is readily available. I’m very rural. I’m in North Dakota, very rural, it’s just not accessible. Where do we start in society to kind of get back to that? Make it a family? And can we write because if we’re so bogged down with our own grief, how can we support someone else? How can we, and I think that’s this is why I’m so passionate about changing the narrative around grief, right? Because if we, you are a better service to your loved ones, if you are healthy, right? Right body spirit.
Jill Johnson 43:42
Mm hmm and you can’t help someone else with a loss if you weren’t in a good space. Right. So it’s all of this separatism. It’s just kind of a product of that. We’ve so sanitized illness, and made an expectation that people don’t die, that we’re not comfortable with it anymore. You know, at our house growing up, we talked about death and illness at the dinner table. That was normal. Right, probably to an excessive degree because of my grandmother. But we, because she loved to talk about it. But that was normal. And when I sit down with you know, regular people who are not grief people, and you know, you make a joke about death, the look on their faces, oh my god, right? Because grief, people have a distinct sense of humor that probably shouldn’t be let out very often. That’s why I like grief conferences, because you’re with your people, right? Nurses and hospice. People are like that, too. But we talk about it and so many people don’t when I’m with Stacey and we’re out in public, and some for COVID Of course, and someone finds out she’s a funeral director. In general, they step back about three to five feet. Like she’s toxic, or death is catching. And they’ll say things like, Do you touch dead people? There’s a woman who has a Facebook space, called Life is a morticians wife, and she’s hysterically funny. You haven’t found her everybody should. And one of her memes that she, she replays frequently is, you know, Morty, her husband is the only mortician who works in a funeral home where there are no dead people. Of course, you touch dead people. Right? Because you’re giving them the gift of a good goodbye for their family. Those are people who work of service, but it scares people.
Victoria Volk 45:42
Yeah, right. It’s not the Grim Reaper.
Jill Johnson 45:45
How can you right there, they’re not picking out who’s gonna die they get the people have already died. But they take good care of them. And all people can see is too creepy. Yucky. I don’t think so. Mental sister is like that. Unless you go to a social worker conference, then Stacey is like the hot potato. Everyone wants to talk to the funeral director. Social workers are a little bit weird and proud of our weirdness. And she, I have a table at one of those meetings that everybody wants to meet Stacey. Right. Because they want to ask her about being a mortician. And half of them wanted to be morticians. So yeah, I think we’ve sanitized it too much. It saddens me that in North Dakota, that’s the experience because farm country used to be where death was normal. Right, and neighbors pulled together. And when there was an illness, it happened at home, and people came over. And you even involved at home? And and even if it’s even gone in farm country, then we’re way too sanitary? Because you should have that natural network.
Victoria Volk 46:53
Well, and what do we do when someone is can’t take care of themselves anymore? They go into a nursing home, right? They get segregated from the rest of the population. So it really comes down to how, how can we build support within communities, so that people can feel as a caregiver a that they’re supported, that they would even want to have their loved one with them at home? Right? You know, it’s it’s a multifaceted issue is know,
Jill Johnson 47:24
A huge problem. We don’t have financial support for caregivers in this country. No, you know, if you’re on in all the grief groups, and you’re talking to someone from England, or the Netherlands, they have grants for the family caregivers. So there’s resources, so they can stay home. They’re not huge. But it makes a difference here. In some states in California, we’re quite blessed with In Home supportive services, but you have to be poverty line or just above, in order for your family caregiver to be paid to take care of you. If your upper echelon, you can hire care if you’re Jill, and you’re having a spouse with an early onset illness, and you’re not retirement age yet, which is when we expect people somehow to all die, right? It’s not true. People die lots of times before they’re 65, then you really do have to scramble to create the network that keeps someone home. And I happen to be able to pull it together. And we also have some hospices that have inpatient units. But that’s not covered under Medicare, or insurance. So again, unless that hospice has a fabulous fundraising arm, you have to be able to afford it because they have to be able to pay their people. Right. The hospice I worked for in Florida has six residential units now. And they have a wonderful fundraising arm, so someone can’t afford it, they can still come and the couch pulls out into a bed, then their volunteer cooks who come in, take care of not only the patients, but also the patient family. So if the family patient choose to have the death there, they have an extended family supporting them visiting hours or 24/7. If we could replicate that everywhere. How much further would we be in making death a much less traumatic experience for everybody?
Victoria Volk 49:27
Yeah, I had gone through earlier this year I went through a death doula certification death doula program, and yeah, I mean, the process, are you. Yeah, it really changed my perspective on just the process of dying and how that can really be a beautiful experience. And it is beautiful. If the family feels like they’re a part of it.
Jill Johnson 49:49
And the family knows what they’re seeing and hearing. Yeah, that’s part of what I teach therapists every program literally every program I teach, what’s one hour of one’s life session is going to be, this is what dying looks like, from the very beginning to the very end. And this is what it feels like when the oxygen gets turned off. And the silence when that compressor is no longer going, we go through all of it. And we go from the death rattle, which I just hate that term too. That’s just fluid on a prone vocal cord. And the person dying isn’t hearing or feeling it. Right, because they have to know what, what really happened so they can unpack the trauma for the family who didn’t have anyone educating them.
Victoria Volk 50:37
Yeah. And you touched on that earlier to just about how so often people aren’t even told their loved one is dying. Right? I had Dr. Chris Kerr, who’s did the he was on surviving death and his hospice work is, you know, part of that. And now, Graham, yes. And that’s what he said, We medicalize death. We’ve met it. We’ve just gotten to the point where we medicalize death where you go to the hospital? Yep. It’s a last ditch effort is hospice? Well, I guess we’ve done what we can, you know,
Jill Johnson 51:09
I’ve had so many patients. And you know, especially young women, and they’ve gone into some research program. And they’ve said, repeatedly, I want to get home to say goodbye to my kids. And they end up being delivered comatose in an ambulance. And they die the next day, and they never could speak to their kids. Because the kids weren’t welcome in the hospital setting. We need to let people have the grace to be at home if that’s what they choose.
Victoria Volk 51:36
Well, the impact of that on the kids. Right? Well, yeah,
Jill Johnson 51:40
Right. It’s better for kids to be able to crawl up in the hospital bed and snuggle with mommy. Because if she’s gonna die, that’s the last snuggle they get. Let them have it.
Victoria Volk 51:51
My dad died nursing home. When I was eight, you know, oh, my goodness. You know, I’m, I’m in school, and he passed away in the nursing home. And there was just nothing that could there was no hospice. There just was no hospice.
Jill Johnson 52:07
And this should have been. Yeah, because Dame Cicely Saunders has been doing this for a long time. Right. We’ve had St. Christopher’s hospice, for forever. You know, and Hospice is a grassroots movement. So we should have a hospice in every county. And if there were more nonprofit hospices, we would be much further along. In Florida, go ahead. In Florida, you can only have one hospice per county. And if they need another one, the hospices are vetted, and they get voted on. And they have to demonstrate that they do all the things is required, and that they don’t spend their money marketing. They spend it in their families.
Victoria Volk 52:52
Yeah, I was gonna add to like the veteran community to the veterans. My dad was a veteran. And so he would receive His care at the VA hospital, which was a three hour drive for us. Almost right. And so I didn’t, we didn’t, I didn’t get to see him that often as he was getting his care. But only just this year, I believe they have broken or they’re raising money right now, to kind of build like a Ronald McDonald House, for the families of those veterans receiving care at the VA. And I’m thinking boy, that was like, that was in the 80s. Right. And it’s taken this long, for there to be a facility for the family to be there with their loved ones like, like things move. So slowly, it feels like and they do this space,
Jill Johnson 53:43
Especially looking at Family Support everyone’s about the patient, which they should be, but that the Paisley entire family part of the family’s dying, right?
Victoria Volk 53:53
You support the family is
Jill Johnson 53:55
Your family and the patient needs to know the family is going to be okay. That’s the greatest distress for a dying person is on my loved ones going to be okay. Yeah. And if they’re all stressed out, then the patient’s all stressed out.
Victoria Volk 54:08
Yeah, let’s say well, there’s there’s angst about dying then to write like, there’s no dine and peace or wait, any sense of inner peace when they’re just filled with worry and don’t want to go and they don’t have a choice and all the conflicting things, right. That’s
Jill Johnson 54:26
Got to die at home, got to do the grieving ahead of time we did the anticipatory grief. And then she actually picked the next wife. I mean, that’s, that’s should be. Yeah, there’s the standard, reduce the stress for the patient. All right.
Victoria Volk 54:40
Coming back to your story, what were some of the things that people I know you kind of sprinkled in a few here and there, but what are some of the things that people said to you that were unhelpful and hurtful?
Jill Johnson 54:52
Oh, my goodness. There were lots of things about how can I possibly support the children well enough, if I was in a new relationship, when Linda was dying, there were, you know, lots of suggestions about get the kids out of the house, so they’re not part of it, you’re going to traumatize them. I know. Well, Linda was dying, I arranged to have an adult assigned to each child. So that in those last days, if I needed to be all about Linda, or to take a break, they had eyes on them that I could trust, and that they were people who weren’t going to say the stupid things to them. Right? The kids heard a lot about this as part of a plan. You know, all the things that Grievers hear before someone’s died and afterward, that, aren’t they lucky to have another angel. My middle kiddo and younger kiddo, learned how to turn that one around like that, you know, we get enough angels, we need to keep this one here. God could have your angel, that’s okay. Why don’t you volunteer? Right. They are my children, you can tell. I heard a lot about I wasn’t grieving long enough, hard enough. I didn’t look sad enough. And then I look too happy. At a wedding, I was told that people were there because they felt like they were obligated to they disagreed with this. Like they got to vote, right? We already had property, nobody else got to vote. We were all done with voting. And I looked at those people so that you don’t have to be here. Right? This is not your people. This is my new life. And you don’t need to be part of it, if that’s how you’re looking at it. And that may sound harsh, but I needed my family to be supported as a family. However, my family was defined in that moment. And then, of course, also, when someone’s dying, you hear all the over, there’s this potion, and there’s that potion. And if you’d only done this, which tells that person you didn’t do enough to support them. And you didn’t stop this death. Yeah, all the things and I’ve got a five page list. No
Victoria Volk 57:07
imagine kids hearing that someone’s saying that to you? And then thinking then, well, did you do enough like you saved her like, you know, then looking at you like you failed them? Right? People just don’t realize what they’re saying. Right?
Jill Johnson 57:21
I can’t tell you how many times I heard pulmonary fibrosis is treatable with with a lung transplant? Well, partly that’s because the pulmonary fibrosis sociation keeps putting that out there. But lung transplant lists are long, right? And if you have pF, because of chemo, you don’t qualify for a lung transplant. Because you’ve already killed your immune system.
Victoria Volk 57:43
You don’t know what you don’t know. Right? You say that all the time? Like I don’t know what I don’t know. And that’s where people just jump to those judgments and those those things without asking yourself, I say to yourself, I don’t know what I don’t know, like people have their reasons. Right?
Jill Johnson 58:01
Right. I mean, little people, I’m okay with that. My my little niece, who adored Linda, call me one night, she said, I discovered there’s a secondary list for injured organs that they can still use for people who weren’t good candidates, we could get Atlanta use lungs. Right? That’s been a car accident might still work. And I appreciated how much love that has told you. She has hope. And she wanted to save her auntie. And I had to explain why that wouldn’t work. But she was looking, right? That kind of thing I totally get. I’ve all grown adults coming in and saying I have this laser thing that I can wave over her lungs. And if you’d let me do it last year, she’d be alive. Get out of my house. Just get out.
Victoria Volk 58:48
I think to like some it’s I think for the most part people are well meaning like they are well meaning it’s because I know I’ve been in that position, especially more so in the past. Like you just you just want to fix it. You just want to say something? Yeah, you want to just help you want to, or maybe this will be the one thing that will you know, change the situation or whatever. But yeah, and that’s where I’m that’s why I said I’m a huge proponent of intuition, your own intuition, your own discernment and your own sense of agency. And,
Jill Johnson 59:24
And if someone’s violating it, let them slip out to the outer circles for a while. Because what griefers really need is just someone to listen to them. Yeah. You know, some judge basis as a Manal analysis, someone they can call and say, can you believe so? And so just told me this, right. And usually someone outside the family they need to talk to because it’s the family saying the things and you freak out frequently, someone outside their house of faith if they have one, because that’s where a lot of those things get said. Yeah, right. They they need a space where they can just talk about it. All the things they’re hearing, and the things they’re considering without being judged for just a really safe, secure space.
Victoria Volk 1:00:09
So would that be your one tip?
Jill Johnson 1:00:11
Find the space, allow yourself to have a sense of humor. Allow yourself to laugh. Get some sunshine. They used to say that you can still go to Disney while you are grieving. You can still do that. Now. I can’t say that because COVID Even though it’s open, I wouldn’t say that because COVID Because I had COVID. Right. But I say you need to find some joy still, you’re allowed to let it die on Good Friday. quite inconvenient. Better than dying on Easter. That would have been the absolute wrong message. But I had to do Easter baskets that Saturday. And being our family, we told her she couldn’t die. She said on the second of April. That was where it fell that year. The 30th of March is my oldest daughter’s Adoption Day. So Linda was quite cognizant and aware and we’re like you can’t die that day. You just you can’t wreck her day. She said okay, I’m not gonna die that day, we’re gonna, I’m gonna hang on, I’m gonna make sure that doesn’t happen. And then we sit and you can’t do April Fool’s Day, because that would just nobody would believe us. Right? Because you have a sense of humor, and they’re gonna think we’re lying. So you have to make it past Easter, if you don’t choose Good Friday, and so Good Friday at noon, she was gone. That’s how our family works grief and loss. But you have to be able to have that sense of humor after loss, because otherwise you’re gonna sink. Yeah. So find someone you can laugh with and be disturbed with. Right? It’s in there.
Victoria Volk 1:01:43
So you gave a lot of advice for those who are deep in grief now, but as a child, what was I mean, I know your family, you talked openly and things like that. But was there ever any, you like your earliest memory of something that of a loss that you had that stuck with you? Anything that was said to you that stuck with you? advice or just phrase.
Jill Johnson 1:02:11
Remember my dad companioning. Right, we were at a funeral for someone, I don’t remember who it was, he had one suit, he never wore suits in one suit. And that was the funeral suit. And I can still feel it because it had a very distinct kind of a texture. And he would put his arms around us, standing behind us in the seats under the tent at every funeral. And I remember him saying, this is okay. They got their life and we’re gonna remember them. And it’s okay to cry. And then afterward, it’s okay to be happy, go get a cookie and go outside play with your friends. So it’s that kind of lesson that you can, you can get through this, it’s not going to be the interview. And you can still find happy. That’s a really strong memory. And I remember my mom saying, you know, sometimes doctors can’t fix everything. And we have to accept that there’s limits and find a way to say goodbye instead. So powerful messages. And that was when I was maybe five or six.
Victoria Volk 1:03:26
It is I mean, it’s it was emulated for you, then it was okay to grieve. Yeah. And the polarity of it’s okay to be happy too, in the same day, same time.
Jill Johnson 1:03:39
Exactly. And that’s the message that I if we as adults can do grief better, and make it normal. Then our kids will watch us because that’s how they learn.
Victoria Volk 1:03:50
Future generations. Yeah. And we can change it us. So I started this podcast, yeah. Freight waves did people support you that were most helpful to you?
Jill Johnson 1:04:02
The folks who showed up and were just there, both during the day and after the matzah ball soup delivery of the bringing Hawaiian flowers. So we could have some sense that reminded us of happy moments. The over the top decorations for holidays that brought back the memories, because they both died during the holiday periods. Right. And those who would call me and tell me I just defended you again. Don’t listen, if anyone’s after you. You get to do this your way. Right? The ones I could call and say I need to get rid of these clothes today. I just can’t have them anymore. And they would come. Those were the things it was it was the doing and the Holding space
Victoria Volk 1:04:55
And all of the grief that you’ve experienced what What would you say that it has taught you, maybe about yourself, and also just maybe about the human spirit.
Jill Johnson 1:05:07
It has helped me find my resilience and a great big way. And I know we overuse that term. But it’s in there for everybody. And with Linda’s illnesses, plural. There were times that, you know, as the caregiver, I just felt so beat up, partly because the way the medical community spoke to us, there were some harsh moments. But I was able to discover that I could turn things around. And that we could find fun and happy enjoy. And that was, probably the biggest thing is I needed to know that I could still find joy in life. And that joy was possible even in the midst of loss in the midst of grief. That was hugely important. The month after Linda died, we had prom, and we had military ball. And we had a teen dance. And the one going to prom. The boyfriend dropped her the day before prom, because he said she’d be too sad, bro. You better believe I was a mad mama. Now they’re married. Oh, my. Whoa, and they can laugh about it. Yeah, yeah, we can find our resilience.
Victoria Volk 1:06:22
What do you say, this drives me nuts. So you already know now how I feel about it. But when people say that children are resilient,
Jill Johnson 1:06:31
I think children are able to heal in their own ways. And to grieve in the moments they need to grieve. Children don’t grieve like adults. And the biggest disservice we give them is to expect them to grieve like adults, teens to teens need to grieve with their teens, their friends, not with adults, they don’t want to grieve with mom won’t agree with their friends. And I think children are resilient. But I think we need to not count on that so much as to teach them what’s happening. And to give them space and permission to both cry and to laugh. And to remember, and to include the person who died in future. So in our house, everybody who’s died gets an ornament on the Christmas tree. And at this point, our Christmas tree is like the memorial Christmas tree. Because every dog and cat and rabbit is on there too right?
Victoria Volk 1:07:27
I love that. I love that little tip for keeping that memory alive. That’s right.
Jill Johnson 1:07:36
There’s some families that do like a holiday table Thanksgiving, where they do the handprint or something and you know, write the name and the date that they’re there. And then the year that somebody died, they put them in a cloud in the center of the table. And so this, we have to be careful not to bleach or wash it outside. But that tablecloth becomes a living memory. And it actually brings those people back into the holiday. Every year. As you talk about them, you’re reminded of them. And kids need that they don’t need to hear the name disappear. They need that name set.
Victoria Volk 1:08:11
Yeah when I think of resiliency, like as a child, for me personally, like, I feel like children don’t choose to be resilient, they’re put in positions that of having to have to having to be so that’s where that’s where it drives me nuts. It’s not that we are resilient, it’s that they don’t have a choice.
Jill Johnson 1:08:30
We need to give them space to do what they need to do to have the emotions that are theirs, just like we want for adults. When your grave sends out, sometimes you’re mad, sometimes you’re happy. Sometimes you’re blah, sometimes you’re empty. Sometimes your heads just gonna spin. Yeah, they’re little people, they have the same things, just the smaller amounts. They just don’t tell you because they’re watching you. Right? So if I’m talking to a child who’s just lost someone to COVID and that’s been frequent this year, have the parent on with them. And also so do you still have questions about what happened? And they’ll look at their parents as they just talked to me, it’s okay. They nod their head. And the parent looks like looks at them. Like I told you, you could ask me did you not ask because you were afraid to you were gonna make so and so sad or upset them? And they’d say yes. Right, because they’re watching the grownups. So don’t assume. Ask them what they’re feeling and give them space for it. And give them time for it and hear them.
Victoria Volk 1:09:41
I’ve actually had someone tell me that a mom told the child to not bring up grandpa’s name because it made her sad. That’s very common. Oh my gosh, it’s an i Yeah, I know. It is. I mean, I grew up in a home where I just didn’t talk about it because it would make my mom Sad right, you know, right? Yeah.
Jill Johnson 1:10:03
They’re still telling little boys be stronger the man of the family now? Yes. I thought that up in 1950 It’s not real. Yes, right. It was real, but I haven’t I doing genealogy. I have an ancestor whose entire family died of the black plague in the 1400s. Right. Wow, everybody died. All of the siblings, the parents, the grandparents, everybody in this house died, except her. For generations, every family had a child with that name. Okay, she was the person of the family. That is not true. In 2021. You don’t have to be the man of family. You don’t have to be strong. Stop it. Right. And you don’t have to be happy that you’ve got another angel. Because if they’re watching over you all the time, that means they’re watching go to the bathroom. It’s creepy.
Victoria Volk 1:10:53
Oh, you’d rather have them here. Right? They’re not
Jill Johnson 1:10:55
Exactly. And I give kids permission to say that. Yeah. When someone says that to you, what do you think? Kids speak? I wish they were here, then tell somebody that? Yeah. They won’t say it again. I guarantee it. Yep. guarantee it.
Victoria Volk 1:11:09
The best lesson they could ever teach that person to.
Jill Johnson 1:11:12
I spoke to a church recently on grief. And they, they asked for some things. And that was one of the things. Don’t tell people what to feel. And don’t tell them not to speak and give them space. And don’t say they’re in a better place. And the pastor put up this giant Amen across the entire street. I love doing church kings when they do that. Right. And they took the tips and put them in the front of the church and sent me a picture. Because they’re doing grief differently. Now. No more messages about this was a plan. This was an illness. It’s a virus we can’t stop. It’s not because somebody wanted them dead. But let’s let’s stop the messaging.
Victoria Volk 1:11:56
Right? Yes. Is a jackass. Yes, right. Do grief better? Mm hmm. So what gives you the most hope for the future. And the most joy,
Jill Johnson 1:12:10
The most joy is sometimes just waking up. But mostly it’s knowing that the work that I do is making a difference and that it gives me space for my family. Because I’m now grandma of two about to be grandma three. Congratulation, right. And I have my oodles at home. And so we you know, being able to watch the little faces is a lot of fun. And the most hope is that we’re doing more of these. And more people are talking and occupying the space and breaking into the conversations to talk about the fact that we can do grief in that make it forever. Yeah, that’s huge for me. And if we can, if we can stop that for, you know, one person, we’ve done our work
Victoria Volk 1:12:58
Well, and you break the cycle, too, I think if you recognize that there is more to life than being a Griever. And that grief is your life. Because just as you can emulate healing and being supportive, and all the positive things of grief, like you can emulate the story that this is how it’s always going to be in what story do you want to emulate to your children?
Jill Johnson 1:13:26
Right? And the more we talk about grief and loss, the better off all of us are? Exactly. Hmm.
Victoria Volk 1:13:34
Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Jill Johnson 1:13:37
I just really appreciate having been asked to be here and being able to say to share the space with you. Yeah, thank you for having me.
Victoria Volk 1:13:44
Thank you so much for being here. And where can people find you if they like to connect with you?
Jill Johnson 1:13:49
Oh, gosh, just Google Jill Johnson. But no, I have the rebellious widow.com that has the book. And you don’t have to buy the book there. You can buy it multiple places. It has free downloads however to go with the book. So if you’re a caregiver, it has an actual caregiver notebook you can download and create at home at no cost. And it has worksheets for doing the grief work. Also at no cost because I’m still a social worker. And then Gil Johnson young comm has resources for all kinds of losses. It’s got sibling loss and pet loss and all the things that are not usually included in loss. And it also has the courses that I teach, and podcasts are posted there. And then the Friday grief chat on Facebook. We’re there every Friday at 10am and it’s called humor, grace and grief. And we just talk about grief in the context of being able those also find humor in life and find the grace in what’s occurred. So that’s a good place to find me. Otherwise I’m on LinkedIn and all the things Pinterest all the if there’s a space still is there.
Victoria Volk 1:14:57
Yeah, the book if they purchase the book on Amazon Do they still get all of the the work?
Jill Johnson 1:15:03
The downloads are free? You don’t have to buy the book at all. And you get downloads. Oh, okay. Yeah, I created it that way. And they publish it was like, Are you serious? I’m a social worker. And I want people to be able to do this better. And so yes, everybody gets access. This is not a members only moment. Wonderful that should be.
Victoria Volk 1:15:21
And I will share all of that information in the show notes. Thank you. And again, thank you so much for sharing your story of hope, and doing grief differently. And thank you so much. You’re welcome. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love, from my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being a heart with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend
Childhood Grief, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Pespective, Podcast, Sibling Loss |
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz | Finding Peace Amidst the Ashes
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
When Kimberley was a child, a house fire would change her life as she knew it forever. Both her older and younger sisters both perished in the fire. However, Kimberley wouldn’t learn the truth of how that life-altering moment came to be until her 30’s.
Growing up, Kimberley’s father also worked a job that kept the family on the road. As a result, Kimberley found it challenging (and heartbreaking) to forge deep connections with others because they were constantly on the go.
Kimberley found her voice through writing after experiencing a two-year “loss limbo” after the death of her dear neighbor and her mother’s death years ago. She’s since written a field guide for living with loss without losing yourself. Additionally, on top of Covid-19, she remains at her husband’s side as his health declines as well.
Remnants of the sadness continue to ebb and flow throughout her life. However, Kimberley has learned tools that have enabled her to find peace amidst the ashes of her grief.
RESOURCES:
- Ep. 40 Dr. Chris Kerr | Death Is But a Dream: End-of-Life Experiences
- Book | Grieving Us: A Field Guide for Living with Loss Without Losing Yourself
CONNECT:
Victoria Volk 0:08
This is Victoria of the Unleashedheart.com, and you’re listening to grieving voices, a podcast for hurting hearts who desire to be heard. Or anyone who wants to learn how to better support loved ones experiencing loss. As a 30 plus year griever and advanced Grief Recovery methods specialist, I know how badly the conversation around grief needs to change. Through this podcast, I aim to educate grievers and non Grievers alike, spread hope and inspire compassion toward those hurting. Lastly, by providing my heart with ears and this platform, Grievers had the opportunity to share their wisdom and stories of loss and resiliency. How about we talk about grief, like we talked about the weather? Let’s get started. Thank you for tuning in. It’s another episode of grieving voices. And today, my guest is Kimberly Pittman Schultz, she is an award winning poet and author who writes teaches and speaks about death, living mindfully, and being a force for change in the world. With 25 years plus, as a philanthropy leader, and charitable and end of life planning advisor, Kimberly has worked with incredibly diverse people looking for meaning after the loss of a spouse, partner, child, sibling, parent, grandparent, or beloved animal. Her focus is helping people cultivate joy every day, so they can be so they can more deeply experience the meaning and beauty of their one. And only fives, thank you for being here.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:43
Thank you, great to be here. With you and your listeners.
Victoria Volk 1:47
Just looking at your website. I felt like I like to look at people’s website and to get a feel for you know, the vibe survive. And so I actually heard something not that long ago that you can really understand someone by the written word, like what they write. And it’s like, when you meet your favorite author, like you’ve been reading all their books, and then you meet them in person. But you’re always gonna have like the some sort of judgment, right? When you first meet them? Well, they’re not really what I thought they’d be, but you fell in love with the writing, right? So you but you feel like you know them because of the writing. And so just, that’s where I really look at people’s websites. And I feel either either I feel that connection, or I don’t, and I felt it with you. And that’s why I had asked, you know, I wanted to have you on. So please share what brings you to grieving voices?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 2:45
Well, besides your lovely invitation, I really listened to some episodes, I think you do something different with this with this podcast, with your guests with your audience, than anyone else is doing. Because you really do allow people to spend some time with their loss story. So often, we’re so focused on how do we heal and move forward, which is a big part of what I’m about, right? You know, I don’t, you know, there is a degree to which you need to spend time in that story and really experience that story. And one of the things I start out with in my book, and it’s one of the first practices is telling yourself your own loss story, because so often, we’re telling our stories to other people. And we’re always tweaking them because we have a different audience, right. So you might say one thing, they’ll coworker, something else to a friend, something else to your pastor or your rabbi. But so often we don’t pause and really just sit with our own loss and process it. And it’s hard. I’m not saying that’s an easy thing to do. And you don’t necessarily want to do it at certain points of your process. But that’s one of the things I feel like listening to how you interact with your guests, is that people have a chance to sit with their story a little bit and then to move forward with what has come out of that experience. And it’s still coming out. Because you know it I like to say last comes along. And then it comes along with us for the rest of our lives. So it’s a it’s an ongoing process. So I’m really excited and honored to be here talking with you.
Victoria Volk 4:15
Thank you. I love that last part when you said it comes along and along and along and along write it because wherever you, you take your past with you wherever you go, right? Yeah, I had one guest. She’s actually a mentor for me through the Grief Recovery Institute and she said your past becomes your present until it’s healed or your past is your present until it is healed. So that was definitely true for me. So thank you for listening to my podcast and for your kind words. I really appreciate it. What are the losses that have been most impactful for you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 4:57
Oh, you know, one of the advantages and disadvantages, I suppose and being on the planet for a while as there are over time, you’re going to have loss and you’re going to have multiple losses. I think, obviously, for me, there were two sets of losses that really have impacted my life the most. When I was about three and a half years old, I lost two sisters in a house fire, we were all in the same room. And I won’t go into the details except to say that I was the one that was able to rescued and my other two sisters could not. And so obviously, that was a big, a big impact for me and my, my mother could not ever talk about it. And so as a kid, I really, ever no one was supposed to talk about it. And so there was that whole trying to process it as a little kid and then moving through your life. So that was at age three, at age 43. My mother was dealing with small cell lung cancer terminal, and two weeks before she died. So we knew at some point that this was going to come to an end, that was not a big surprise, although it’s still a surprise when you’re actually there. But you’re kind of grieving that anticipatory grief, then of a friend and my next door neighbor, two weeks before my mother died, killed herself, shot herself in the heart, and happened to do it under the tree that my kitchen window looks out on. And so So I have these series of losses, there been many other losses. You know, I have companion animals that I’ve grieved deeply over and still missed. Even I have other cats in my life. Those two sets, losing my sister and then losing Ruth was my was my friend and neighbor and my mother, within two weeks of each other, that were really kind of big events and pivotal for me, and in shaping who I am.
Victoria Volk 6:44
Wow, I can’t imagine. Can I ask were you the one that found your neighbor?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 6:50
No, she did it at night, Memorial Day weekend. And it’s interesting, because I had this practice. Every evening and I still have this practice. I stopped it for about two years after she died. But when we go out, I go out every night and say good night of the night. And I just kind of take in the night and I feel moments of gratitude. And I said good attention that to people and that night. For whatever reason. I was tired. I don’t remember why. But I did not do that. And I was woken up at one o’clock in the morning, my husband and I by knock by the sheriff on the door telling us just acid we’ve heard anything seen anything. And I just immediate it’s a weirdest thing. I just the weirdest thing. But I just knew immediately something was wrong with Ruth. And Eva said that to my husband. He goes, Oh, you know, I’m sure it’s nothing. And of course, it was very much something we learned the next day.
Victoria Volk 7:42
I asked that because you’d said your window faces. So I just Yeah,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 7:47
Well, fortunately, I did not witness that. And by the next morning, she they had removed her. I mean, she was no longer there. But I could never, I mean, Victoria could just never look at that tree again, the same way. I mean, I just could never, you know, to me, I’m very nature oriented person. So the tree instead of being the symbol of growth in life became you know, the tree of life, right? That’s the ultimate archetype was just really a great tree of sadness for me to look at every day, and just think about her being there. And, you know, and anyone who’s and I know many of your listeners have dealt with all that goes through your head in a suicide all the should have could have if I’d only and then what was going through that you’re just trying to put yourself in that person’s place trying to imagine how you your life is so broken that you get to the point that you’ve made that choice for yourself, you know, so So Now fortunately, I didn’t witness that. But it did become every morning every night. Every time I looked out that window it was really tough because we just a reminder that roof wasn’t Ruth, Ruth wasn’t there anymore.
Victoria Volk 8:51
You still live there?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 8:53
No, no, I was became very difficult to live there. And then after my mother passed away, we were living in Pennsylvania then and my my husband’s originally from California, we lived much of my adult life in California. We knew at some point we wanted to get back west. And that moving to Washington State before returning back to California. But I will say that Korea became very hard to live there to live in Pennsylvania just because my father was still there and siblings were still there. And I I didn’t grow up there. But I had lived there for seven years and moved there to be closer to my family. Ironically, when I left California, I would say to people, people say you don’t move from California to Pennsylvania, you move from Pennsylvania to California, you’re doing it backwards. And I’m like, Well, I just want to get to know get to know my family before we all leave the planet. And I kind of said that off the cuff and how true it turned out to be in terms of really developing, you know, getting close, not living to my parents and 20 over 20 years. So I’m so glad I made that move, but it became really difficult to stay there particularly to stay in that house. After Ruth’s left.
Victoria Volk 9:58
That’s even more great too, right?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 10:01
Yeah, that was probably one of the big mistakes I made. Because not long after that I was offered a position. I had been leading a CEO of a community foundation in Pennsylvania, and I’ve been offered a comparable position in the West. We knew we wanted to get back west, I had this feeling of just you want to flee, which sometimes happens with loss, right? You have this feeling if you just want to run away. And so in the midst of all this, and then my father is in his ended lifetime, he he continued another two and a half years. But you know, so you then move across country and you start a new job, and we didn’t move back to California back move to Washington State, which was, I loved making I loved about living there. But that’s a lot of change at one time. And looking back, it’s like that, that would not be one of my recommendations. To anyone at that point. Anyway, I think it was too soon, but I’m human.
Victoria Volk 10:55
Right? We learn as we go. But yeah, that’s a great tip, though, to give Grievers it’s, you’re not thinking necessarily clearly right? You can’t really tune into your own intuition and your own guidance system, because you’re so filled with emotional stuff. So I think before you make any life changing decision like that, like a move across the country, or a job or anything, it’s really take that time to settle into yourself and maybe kind of get some guidance maybe and how to tap into your own knowing. Right?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 11:33
Absolutely. And I think even though, you know, we talked about, you have multiple griefs over lifetime. Each of those, even though we do have griever styles, and it’s not the you categorizing anyone in any one way we do know, there’s some general styles of grieving that people fall into. And then you’ve got things like gender and gender orientation, or introvert extrovert, all those things play into how we grieve. But I’ve also found that each loss and different points in our life results in different responses to grief and loss as well. So it’s not like because you dealt with one loss this way that that means the other, you know, the next loss is the same way. And so what surprised me about my mother’s loss, in particular, besides being tied to this other loss, is, you know, I knew she was going to be passing away, I had all that anticipatory grief. And I expected it to be difficult, but I didn’t know it would lead me into two years of what I call lost limbo, because I just really, really, really was lost. My father who in many ways I felt closer to it was difficult to lose him. But I kind of rebounded from that much, much better. And I do think it has to do at a more complicated relationship with my mother, than I did with my father. And sure, that’s all of that. But that’s the other thing you don’t know. So you need to, you need to kind of spend a little time again with with your give your grief a little chance to unfold. So you know, what is it going to be like? Because initially, you don’t necessarily have a whole lot of control, you’re kind of following it before you learn how to, you know, reintegrate it into a new lie?
Victoria Volk 13:03
Did it help you too, and I don’t know, maybe you weren’t able to do this, or maybe it wasn’t part of your process. But I imagine your mother losing two other children. I’m a mother, I can’t imagine losing a child, you know, and so instil the difficulty of still having to be present and be a mother to you, in any other children that do have other siblings
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 13:29
Later on. Yeah, later on, my sister came along, and then something even further later on, my brother came along, so there were other children later on. But to get where I think you’re going it, my mother’s life was changed forever. And my mother, what I did not know, until I was 33. Because again, nobody talked about it. And when I would try to ask questions, people would just try to change the subject matter. All my life until age 22, from age three to 33, I did not know that part of what caused the fire. What I knew was an accident. But what the story I had been told to protect me actually was not true. That in fact, my mother fell asleep smoking in bed, and had a can of hairspray next to the bed that blew up. And that just immediately, just the house just went up in flames so quickly. And so she lived with that, her whole life and at the end of her life, you know, a big part of trying to, for her to find some peace as she began, you know, her process of leaving this this life was trying to come to terms with that even all those years later, as her life was coming to an end. It was a very real thing, but I didn’t know that until I was 33. So then I kind of went through a whole nother loss process around that because, you know, my my father said, Well, we didn’t want you to like blame your mother. It’s like, gosh, dang, I don’t blame my mother. I had this immense grief for her like for her like I was owning it for her and just, I think about all the times you couldn’t hug my mother, my mother wasn’t good at hugging like she, if you went to hug her, she just kind of lean in almost like she didn’t deserve a hug. I mean, we used to laugh about that. It’s like, now I know why, you know, and I think about some of the she, you know, she’s separate from some mental health issues as well. I’m sure all this exacerbated, right. And if I’d known some of this, particularly as a teenager, oh, my gosh, it would have helped me, it was still been a challenging time in our household, but I would have been able to process it better. So sometimes people try to protect kids. And in the long term, you know, maybe it’s not as protective as people think. But yeah, she, she struggled her whole life.
Victoria Volk 15:44
And I say grief shared as grief diminished. And I think that’s, it’s a disservice to children, when we think that not talking about it as protecting them. And my dad passed away when I was eight. And that was something to my mom openly grieved. And it was almost to the point, and not unhealthy. But like I couldn’t, there was no space for me to grieve. Because it took up so much room in our home. You know,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 16:12
Yeah, I do. I absolutely know what you’re saying, Victoria, I really do.
Victoria Volk 16:17
So, you know, parents listening, it does not help the children to shield them from the reality of grief, it really sets them up to, like you said, unlike me, personally, too many people that I’ve talked to on this podcast, who experienced traumatic or grief experiences in childhood, it’s not something that just goes away. Because it wasn’t talked about, in fact, it has probably more does more damage than anything. Did you feel this immense pressure then to to to do something impactful? And do something? You know, because?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 16:57
Yeah, that’s an interesting question, because I do feel. And it’s interesting to where you come at this question, because I think one strategy for actually dealing with loss and the fact that and survivor grief and survivor guilt, like, Why did I get to live, you know, just be I mean, I’m alive, because I happen to be on the bottom bunk, and old enough to walk to a window and pound on a window and get out, right? I mean, it’s just so arbitrary. In some cases, I mean, just the way it happened. So part of what has helped me is being what I call an avatar, which is, you know, there are times when I’ve not wanted to do something, or I felt really stuck, or, you know, I called the certain kind of Griever process I called being a bear, where you just want to go in hibernate in a cave, and just everybody go away. And part of coming out of that as saying, Well, you know, they didn’t get to live. So I need to live for myself, I need to live for them, I can see things I have clothing that I wear that my mother never got to wear, that now we were very different people. So she had long arms, she was taller. So I roll up the sleeves, you know, but I wear them for her. And I feel her when I do that. So on one hand is a really healthy and empowering thing to do. But I have also been in exactly the place that you’re talking about where at one point I became such a workaholic, such a, you know, just really felt like I can’t waste a single minute, because there’s all these people that don’t get to live like 911, I still think about the people who got up like any other morning and thought they were going to go to work or go to school and come home and it was just gonna be another day. And they didn’t get to have any more days after that. So you feel you can get to a point where you take being that avatar for your others a little too far. So it really is about balance, it can be a way to help you integrate them into your life, because they are part of you. That’s been removed. And so you’re trying to hold on to that part as you move forward. But you can take it to an extreme and I have been in that place and had to just back off and say, maybe my others want to rest right now maybe my others would like to sit outside in the sun and just chill, you know. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting part of all of this.
Victoria Volk 19:11
I don’t want to circle back to your mother’s decline and how you said that, you know, part of her process, in her End of Days was to come to terms with those losses that she had. And I had actually had a conversation with Dr. Chris curve. He’s researcher of end of life experiences. And the one thing that he says is that and I think this is something that people don’t necessarily look at terminal illness and think, Oh, gee, that’s a beautiful experience, or it can be right and I certainly was one of them because that’s how my dad passed away in a nursing home right but going through end of life training as a doula completely flipped that on its head for me, because I’m talking to Dr. Chris curve because just to your point It’s like our soul has this, this or soul process, what what it’s longing for right as we get through to the end of life and he had a beaut He has a beautiful example in the podcast episode. But essentially, and one of the stories was two that is shared real quickly, I’ll share it. But a mother had lost a baby miscarried. And at the end of her life, her family was in the room with her and she started rocking a baby. And they realize that, because there was actually I think someone in the room that did not know that she had had a miscarriage. But it’s, you know, the loved ones come to you, at the end of life, and it’s been witnessed and stories have been taught, it’s been documented in research that this starts happening as early as even six months before someone passes have a terminal illness. Did your mother ever speak to any experiences like that?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 20:57
Absolutely. And I witnessed it. I mean, I witnessed it myself and my father, who was agnostic and would never have expected it and who’s ended up lifetime in the hospital had some very amazing experiences. With my mother, though, to get to your question, it was still several months before she passed. So it is sometimes it comes and goes over that period of time. But she would have to, there were several, several things were meaningful. She was visited by her mother, she felt her mother there. And her mother, she and her mother had a complicated relationship. And the time that they spent, seem to bring some reconciliation at the end of life. And then and I write about this in my book, actually, there’s a point at which my sisters, and it’s not my sisters, it’s my older sister, I had one of the sisters that died one, when I was three and a half, my older sister was right before her seventh birthday. And my younger sister, the day of the fire was literally her second birthday. So she died on her second birthday. So my mother at the end of life for a while and it just lifeless for just out of the blue, in the evening would be visited by my older sister. And so the first time this happened, I was with my mother. And we were sitting together and you know, interest, kinda at the end of the day. And Sue was really kind of tucking her in, if you will, for the day, she’s, you know, no energies, you’re very tired, right? And, you know, my mother seeing my sister and became very distraught, I mean, physically distraught, like, almost like she was in physical pain. And what disturbed her was that the older sister was there. But the younger sister who had died on her second birthday was not there. And it was extremely disruptive to her. And so I’m going through my, my, my mind trying to think, you know, what can I offer here? What can I do here? Because she’s just like, physically bent over like, she’s in physical pain. And so I just said, Oh, mama, you know, little kids, she’s probably just off playing, you know. And the goal was not to anyway, minimize what was happening, because I could see what she was seeing. She was looking in a very specific place, she was seeing my older sister as a child, I wondered in my head at the time, Victoria wondered, what does this scene look like to my mother, because she’s seeing my older sister who’s just before her seventh birthday, and here’s her 40 something year old, you know, middle child, right at that point, you know, what do we look like to her. But as soon as I offer that, and she thought about that, she calmed down. And then she didn’t talk to my older sister, but there was just this quiet and she, and she just walked away feeling or had this feeling that my older sister was okay. And then she felt loved. And that was really comforting to her. And then my sister just kind of disappeared. And this happened for a while for, you know, really a couple of weeks. And then just as mysteriously, she stopped being visited by my sister, she never did see my younger sister. But somehow she came to terms that she was just off playing and that somehow the interaction with you know, whatever my older sister was, in that moment, whatever real is, you know, was very real for her. set her mind at ease, and it was a great gift. And it was not someone said, Oh, well, maybe it’s her mess. It was not her meds, you know, I don’t know what it is. Is it the mind? Is it the Spiritual World, I just one of the beauties of being at this stage of my life is it’s like, cares, whatever it was, it was real for her. And, and it was healing for her at a time that she really really needed that. Feeling things were okay after so many years of them not being okay.
Victoria Volk 24:36
And the how that is helpful for you to and your healing and for many families who get to experience that with their loved ones, right. That’s and I think like Dr. Chris Kerr said in that episode, too, he said, you know, we medicalize dying, we medicalize dying, and when we medicalize dying, we robbed people of the opportunity to you not keep them comfortable, but don’t rob them of the opportunity to have these very lucid experiences that really step like, set their soul at ease, really, it can help their release.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 25:15
Right, right. And I think it’s also a gift for you, if you let your mind be open. I mean, I’ve certainly had people. And I work in in charitable and philanthropic end of life planning. So I’ve worked with a lot of people at the end of their life who are trying to do some like charitable and estate type planning. But we’re also in a time now have of what I call kind of a good death movement, right? Where people are very consciously thinking about what they want that end of lifetime to be like, I think the COVID pandemic has brought new light to that, and people realizing what they don’t want. So they start thinking about what they do. But having worked with so many people over the years, who are in that end of life are nearing that end of lifetime. And the experiences they’ve had, and I’ve talked with people are like, Oh, Dad’s going crazy. Again, he’s thinking this, and he’s thinking this, and I’m like, don’t try to correct him. lean into it. This is real for him. And when you try to tell him, no dad sounds, so is dead, or, no, that’s not really here, you’re hallucinating, or we need to scale back your meds. People are well intended, but it doesn’t help that person at all. I’ve never seen any time where that helps. And if anything, it can drive people into I am I again, I’m not I’m not a psychiatrist, or psychologist, I just know what I’ve witnessed and experienced. And that is, when you try to tell people that these things are for you just make them feel a little crazy. And like they’re like they’re dying wrong. I mean, that’s just that that’s like that would be the crazy thing is to have people somehow think they’re doing their own and the lifetime, wrong, because you can’t and you know, the fact that we can’t explain what these things are, or we’re going to come up with an explanation doesn’t really matter. It’s for them, it really helps.
Victoria Volk 27:02
I also think, too, it’s why it’s so important that before you get to that point with a loved one who is sick or dying, or before you find yourself in that situation where you’re by bedside, it’s so important to have addressed what is incomplete for you with that relationship, because I think, you know, it can be a less than loving relationship, or it can be a super duper loving relationship almost to the point of codependency. And then you’re just holding on and holding tight with, you know, with the grip that let’s do anything and everything to stop this from happening. And it really is dishonouring the natural process. And yeah, so there’s so many different ways we could dig into that topic even more the end of life is something that Yeah, I haven’t really fully explored yet as an end of life doula, I’m not even sure what that’s going to look like for me. But education is a definite cornerstone of that. Just that’s why I started this podcast to is just education, grief, because so many don’t even recognize grief in themselves. But it shows up in all kinds of ways.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 28:12
Well, because grief when people think of grief, they tend to compartmentalize it to just mean sadness, or longing or whatever. But it’s this kaleidoscope, I mean, absolute kaleidoscope of emotions, physical sensations, thought patterns, it’s so many things. So you get, you know, so sometimes people will say, and I can think of several people I’ve worked with over the years who think in my book, I write about this one artist who’s really funny, she’s really quickly but she’s like, Oh, I’m so past grief, you know, over her mother dying. But then all the three years after her mother died, all these weird things started happening in her life that she couldn’t make sense of. And, you know, I think we came to the conclusion was she she was still grieving, and they’re still things she needed to deal with, you know, that she just hadn’t really dealt with. And they were showing up in multiple ways that you wouldn’t think that screen. It’s like, Yeah, I think that probably is part of your grief, you know, so. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Victoria Volk 29:07
Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your book.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 29:10
Ah, well, you know, it’s interesting. I, you know, a little over a year ago, I started writing, I decided to write a book. And it wasn’t something I had really planned to do. But I had been really just paying attention to the people I was working with in my work and how they were struggling with COVID and the seeming randomness of this invisible virus that was making some people very sick and others not so much. And that, you know, initially the deaths were very terrible. I mean, at one point, I think in April of 2020, the people that were going into the hospital in New York, if they were over 65 and put on a ventilator, they had a 95% chance of dying. 90 now, things have gotten a lot better since then, we’ve learned so much. There’s more therapies, there’s all kinds of things, but that point I literally had older people that I was working with who said, I want to add something into my Advanced Directive. Because if I get this thing, I don’t want to go to the I just want something that puts me to sleep. I don’t want to go that way without my loved ones around me. And, and so I think so I’m having all these kinds of conversations with people. And then right before people believed in COVID, I mean, initially, there was like, Oh, you have to go to China to get it. If you did, this probably not a thing, right. And I gotten sick on a business trip. In Seattle, right around the time, Seattle was determined to have community spread. Long story short, I, whether or not I had, it’s not clear, I didn’t have flu, because I was tested for that. And the early when I finally was able to get a test, because there was almost no test here, it was a really early version. And I was actually the first person in this one area to get tested. So you know, I’m not even sure how accurate at that point, they could be accurate, and inaccurate both ways. But I was very sick for about a month. And so you’re laying there watching all of this unfold, and you’re hearing interviews with people. And you’re, and I like to read a little bit, you know, beyond just the typical what comes on your media, you know, news channel or comes up in a feed on something. And so I’m picking up these stories in strange places of people having what seems like COVID, even though supposedly, they never been to China, or at that point that France, you know, started spread out. But the fear that was there and fear across all age ranges, and the sudden feeling that, oh, my gosh, this could happen to me, this could happen to somebody I know. So writing the book for me was about.
And of course, you feel a little egotistical, but I felt like I this had been such a part of my life, it’s like, I’m really good at that. I’ve dealt with it for so many different ways I’ve dealt with it in my career, I helped raise funds for the first pet loss support Hotline at a veterinary school early in my career. So I thought maybe I can offer something to help people navigate this some actual practices and some storytelling, so people don’t feel all alone. And then my husband is in his end of lifetime. So, you know, the title is grieving as a field guide for living with loss without losing yourself. And the title really works on multiple levels. Because in some ways, you know, I’m kind of grieving, the end of what I know is going to be my own relationship with my husband, and he’s still with me, which is wonderful. But we know day by day, it’s it can happen at any time, right? That’s always been true for all of us. Right. But when someone gets older, and when they have a very major illness, you know, it just brings it into such focus. So the book was about, you know, not only, you know, you write about something, you get better at it yourself, and you understand it better yourself. So my goal was to help others to kind of help myself through some difficult challenges. And to just to just offer some practices, because I know for myself that there are a lot of really good grief books out there. But I myself when I was looking for different therapies or strategies, I felt so often there was no how to, you know, there were stories to read about there was talk therapy, but there was never like, what are some specific things I could do to try to take a break from this, and I had figured those out, at least for me, may not work for everybody, but I wanted to share those. So that’s really what the book is about. And I gotta tell you, Victoria, it’s just, you feel a little egotistical, like what do I really have to offer. But you know, since that time, I’ve had some amazing outreach from some of my readers, telling me about how the book has helped them. I had somebody come up in my Facebook, and I’m not a big Facebook person. But you know, she’s in Vietnam, and she’s not only dealing with, you know, grieving a longer term loss with her parents. But Vietnam has been having some very difficult challenges. And from what she described pretty horrific challenges with COVID-19. I recently popped up that one of my books, reviews on Amazon was from someone who lost a about a 50 day old infant, many years ago and has been struggling all these years, even though she has other children, and his mood clearly move forward in her life, but she’s still been struggling and found, you know, not to me, it’s not about my ego, but to the way she described the impact of my book on her. It’s like, you know what, something happened to me tomorrow, at least I know, I helped somebody, I helped a few somebodies and that’s what it was about. That is what it’s about for me.
Victoria Volk 34:25
I love the title too, by the way, would you say that you feel you’ve healed much of your grief.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 34:34
I do. I mean, I think grief is an interesting thing. Because in some ways, it is like a really bad wound and that you have some kinds of wounds that will completely heal, right. They’ll completely heal. There’s no scar, there’s no damage to a tissue or bone. And then there’s more severe wounds where you’ll have a scar that’ll be there’ll be with you. Or I think about Anne Lamott, the writer who talks about you know when you lose Somebody sometimes it’s, you know, you’re going to move forward, but it’s going to be like having, it’s like having your leg broken. And when it rains, you know, you have an achy leg that day because of this break that you endured. I think she’s right about that. I think for me, I’ve healed it. But it is like a wound. It is like a broken leg that aches when you know, when the weather gets cold and damp, or a wound that sometimes just opens up again. And I do think it’s that way for most people. So I feel that from the standpoint of, is there joy in my life, you bet even on the worst days, I know how to find it. But there will always there’s always something there because the loss does really go along with you.
Victoria Volk 35:41
Living in in it as we speak, you know, with COVID, and your husband, what are some things, some tips and things maybe some that you include in your book, you don’t have to give away the whole book, but a few things that you would share with the listeners today?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 35:59
Well, for me, what really helped me get out of what I called that two years of lost Limbo after Ruth suicide and my mother’s death and moving across country and starting, you know, a new life someplace else. Um, you know, I struggled for two years and one night I went, I lived there, we bought a house that had some river frontage, I was very fortunate. And I, when you lose, when you’re in grief, a lot of your routines and habits get broken. And that’s one of the things that I reflected back on that I think gets overlooked even, even in sometimes very, really excellent grief. psychotherapy, for instance, is the dailiness of our love how love is a habit and how, when you lose somebody, your days really do get broken, because there were times that you did things or times if even if they weren’t present, that you are thinking about them at certain times, or doing things all those rituals, habits and routines tied to them are now broken. And part of it is trying to figure out what those are, sometimes people don’t realize how their days are broken. Part of it’s figuring out how to bridge those so that they don’t get become giant grief holes, because I think we’ve all had those moments, I was talking to someone recently who told me on a very certain day, very certain time, she can be doing great all week. But when that day and time comes, she’s integratable because that’s when her mother died. She’s at least figured that out. So then you can start to plan around it. Right. So what helped me is when I was really struggling, and I had these broken days, and I hadn’t yet figured out why I couldn’t get it together, you know, why was I still struggling so much after two years, which I later found out is actually not terribly unusual. You know, I mean, it’s not the ideal. I mean, I would certainly Life is short. So I would certainly encourage trying to get to joy sooner rather than later. But the one habit that wasn’t broken is I always locked the doors every night before I went to bed. And I do write about this in the book. And one night, I just decided to wander out to the river. I was definitely having a blue day and I just wandered out to the river. And I was just standing there in the darkness. And it was very quiet. But I could hear the water coming over the stones in the river. Sometimes you can actually hear voices in the water. And it’s not like there’s really actually it’s just the way the sound of the water moving through the rocks and the shifts and you could hear birds shifting up in the trees, you know, and their night roofs and it was there was Miss so the just feeling and I was just really taking it all in and then I decided to go back and lock the doors and go to bed. Well as I was walking back to the house Victoria, I realized in that few moments, it couldn’t have been more than three or five minutes I stood by the river. I felt okay. I didn’t feel sad. I didn’t feel brilliant. I mean, you know, I wasn’t my world was I wasn’t suddenly cured or healed. But I felt okay. And so I realized I had taken a break from grief. And so then I started thinking I need to do this, I need to do more of this. And I started implementing what I call tiny come back to your senses rituals, because for me, it was just coming back to my own body, my own senses, being so caught up in the sounds, the sights, the smells, well, how I how I felt in that moment, that it turned on the volume on my mind a little bit because I think our minds are great for healing, but they can also pull us into some dark places. And I just got absorbed. And so what I will always encourage people is just the simplest thing at all is just to stop and breathe. And you don’t have to be a meditator. You don’t have to be in mindfulness. Those things help. But you can literally just take three minutes get an egg timer, an old fashioned egg timer if you need to, and just sit and pay attention to your bread or I like to tell people pick one cents and cent cent your sense of scent is often a good one because it involves breathing. Although a scent is something that really triggers you because your beloved loves, you know lavender or something you might want to choose hearing or taste. But just really immerse yourself in that sense for just a few minutes. And you really can’t take a break from grief. And once you start taking more breaks and make those breaks larger. Joy can start to come back. The joy is there. I really believe It’s always there, but you can invite it back in. And I will say, just really quickly, I want to define what I mean when I say joy, because it’s not like you’re a bully, and you’re gonna kick your heels up, you know, the, you know, all is good forever. To me, Joy is about feeling connected to your own life, feeling connected to the moment, feeling like your life has meaning and purpose, even if you don’t know what it is. But if you just belong to the moment into your life, and to be a part of the world, to me, when you have that, that’s really where joy starts. And that’s what those little grief breaks allow you to do. So that’s what I would encourage is just get back to your senses for a few minutes today.
Victoria Volk 40:39
I actually did that before our call today. My back patio is just one of my favorite spots because the birds and so I went and I sat on the concrete and just close my eyes and I just felt the sun on me and the breeze and heard the birds and the barking dog then ate the neighbor’s barking dog. But it really is just finding that sense of peace within ourselves. It it doesn’t have to be this pressure to feel joy, but just a sense of peace. That’s with that comes from within. And like you said, it’s not you can’t you it’s not just gonna happen on its own. You have to curate that. And so yeah, I think that’s a perfect, perfect tip to give because I’ve I’ve worked a lot in working on that myself, like just, I do believe I do meditate daily, but break in middle the day, 10 minutes,
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 41:35
Way more powerful. I’ve had people say, Oh, it sounds so hokey. You know, and I tell a few stories in the book, one in particular that you know, up and coming executive who just was go go go, but every night would come home and just sob as she said sob into a glass of wine, because she was missing her brother so and didn’t feel like she had time to do anything. But we all can find just even three minutes. And it sounds hokey and Pollyanna ish as I’ve been accused of both those until you do it until you have that moment in that you had today of being in the sun. And you’re feeling that sun. And you’re also hearing things and even if what you know, you’re not even judging the dog barking, you’re just like, you might not have ever even noticed that. It’s just all these things that you that happen all the time. I mean, we have sensory input coming in at us right and left all the time. And of course, if we tried to remember everything and pay attention to everything, we go a little bonkers, but in the moment to really just feel that son and be paying attention to all of that. It just slows everything down. And you realize that the world is just okay. And it’s still going on. And you’re here. I mean, you’re here and you’re feeling it. So? Yeah, it’s not it’s way more powerful than it sounds. It often sounds too simple to be true, but it works very well.
Victoria Volk 42:48
Well, it takes a conscious choice. You can’t just say, yeah, you have to choose it. Because like I said, it’s not going to spontaneously happen on its own. You can chase sadness, and sorrow, which are valid feelings. But do you want to chase those feelings? Or do you want to chase, solace and peace? And feeling good? Just ask yourself what would feel good? Right now? Exactly. My face. And that’s why I chased it. I sat down and I just felt the warm sun on me. Because pretty soon it’s going to the leaves are turning Oh, the North Dakota winters are long. So yeah, savor it while you can write. I’m curious, too. You’ve given some great tips. But what are some things that you found helpful in ways that others supported you? And have supported you now with, with your husband and everything?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 43:42
Yeah, I think one of the things that has surprised me at different points in my life is when we think about being supportive for others, I think the two things I would say is, it’s very easy for all of us to feel like we want certain kinds of support for even if we can’t name it, like you don’t realize you have, you have an expectation until the expectation isn’t met. And then you realize that there was an expectation there. I think without realizing it, when we’re grieving, there is a sense of what we think we want from other people. And sometimes people immediately round us can give us that, and sometimes they can’t. And so there’s two things I would say about that, that I think are really helpful. One is it, it’s very easy when you’re grieving and anger and disappointment and loss. There’s so many emotions that go with grieving. But if you let yourself get caught up with, you know, you had someone on your podcast that talked about a friend who just wasn’t there for her, like radically not there for her. Um, you can get so tied up with and I’m not reflecting on the person you’re interviewing, but I’m just saying I’ve done so many people that’ll get so tied up and that becomes part of the grief, being angry, being disappointed being hurt all those things. You just pull yourself down deeper into the hole. Sometimes the reason people like at the end of my mother’s life, the person that you There are two people in her life two women friends she cared about deeply one of them was so there for her, one of them was so not there for her. But that’s because she had such an empathic personality, she could not personally bear it. So I would say, express radical empathy. And just say, You know what, I don’t understand why this person, not here, it upsets me, it hurts me honor it, acknowledge that that’s how you feel. But then I’d say the best thing you can do is let go of that and just assume for whatever reason, she or he cannot be there for me, and move on. Related to that is accepting that sometimes the people immediately around you are not the ones that can support you. Sometimes what you really need are other kinds of people that you would not think about. And so for me, like when I was really struggling with my mom, it was actually my mother in law who didn’t live near me. But we’ve talked frequently by phone, who I felt was one of the most supportive people to me at the time, in dealing with my loss of my mother and an understanding why this, why is it taking so long to read my mother in law, got it in a way that was helpful. The other thing is, you know, is sometimes being a part of a group of strangers that are on their own loss journeys. One of the things that I’ve started as a result of my book, and people wanting help, in implementing, because it’s one thing to have the information, it’s another thing to actually implement it and figure out how to integrate it into your life. So you know, one of the so I’m rolling out something that’s essentially a part workshop part course, if you will, smart, you know, sort of small group experience, so that people can support each other and the don’t, they’re coming together don’t know each other, but they’re on loss support paths, or are different loss paths where they can support each other in ways that maybe other people right in their immediate environment can’t. And sometimes people can talk much more openly about their loss with someone that’s a perfect or an imperfect stranger than they can with someone like a lot of mothers I find, and maybe you can relate to this, have a hard time talking about a loss, because they need to feel strong for their children or their spouse. And so sometimes it’s easier for them to talk with someone that’s not part of their family where they can really let their hair down and just, you know, express what’s going on and then have accountability. So if you say, I’m going to start doing the thing, where I go out every day in the sun on my back porch at 10 o’clock, so that I can start getting those breaks, and then you let your life get busy. Or you’re in that kind of grief hole. You have someone that can kind of say, Hey, are you out on the patio? Did you do it? Are you out there, let’s go out in the patio together, I’ll get on my patio, you go on your others. So that would be the other thing I would say is look for people that might not be in your environment that can support you or understand you and help you feel okay, and help you stay on your own path to getting better.
Victoria Volk 47:48
Absolutely. I agree with all of that. What has grief taught you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 47:54
Oh my gosh, Victoria, so many things. At the very I let one of the things I like to do is go with the very first word that pops into my head, which can be dangerous. I suppose if I’m having a I haven’t had a word nerds, or sometimes quirky words popping in my head. But the first word that popped into my head, when you ask that question is resilience. Because there are a few experiences. And you know, sometimes we like to say certain losses are worse than other losses, I really like to stay away from that because somebody losing a grandparent, it can be actually way worse than losing their dad. It’s hard to imagine, but I’ve witnessed it. It has to do with that relationship and the dailiness of that relationship and how broken those days are. But what I would say is, so whatever that when you go through a really tough period of grief, whatever that grief is for, for whatever that loss by name and via death, that might be a divorce, it might be you know, your parents got divorced. And now you don’t see your dad, very often your mom very often, when you go through that, and you are able to come out on the other side, you’ve learned some things, you’ve learned some skills for the next one of those that comes along. Because you know, we know there’s always going to be another something coming along, you don’t look for it, you don’t invite it. But you can become more resilient and kind of take care of yourself better so that when the next thing comes, you’re able to not get stuck as long or hurt as long because I do believe in the sciences there that the longer you stay in pain, it can become a way of life, it can become a new way of life. And then it gets harder and harder to actually get back to a place of wellness and feeling joy and peace and those kinds of things. So resilience is definitely the thing that pops into my mind. And it’s a it’s a code word for some because I know in some situations, you know, resilience suggests like Oh, Buck up, you know, come on, be a man be a woman. Yeah, that’s not what I mean at all to me. And I even define it in my book so that we’re talking about the same thing because sometimes even in the work environment, resilience is used to say, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and let’s move on. It’s like an excuse for not granting people space to To be human basically is what it means. But resilience, what I mean is really, and it’s and was often described as bouncing back. And I, I gotta say I disagree with that definition because I don’t think coming back from grief is ever a violence. I’ve never just bounced back, and you’re not really bouncing back, because you’re like, you’re not the same person you were before that event, you know, when somebody dies part of who you are that relationship, I mean that physical presence is gone. And you have to figure out a new way of living without that person in their in their previous form, you know, we can take them with us in a different way. So really, resilience to me is really about, you know, knowing how you develop the skills and mindsets to help you take whatever’s coming in to know to know in your bones, that you will get through this, and that you have an ability to, to get to a new place is going to be different, but where you can feel good again.
Victoria Volk 50:54
Yeah, I’ve said this many times on my podcast, and I’ll say it again, because it came up and that was your word. But when people I think the word resilience in used in reference to children who’ve experienced grief and loss and traumas children, I think that’s almost a way for adults to let themselves off the hook. You know, when they say children, oh, they’re resilient, they’ll bounce back, like you said, they’re resilient. But children don’t choose resilience. Resilience is something that it’s they either, it’s a survival mechanism, really. And so you know, this being a child who’s experienced who was in a home with a lot of grief, and was raised with grief in the home and had personal losses yourself as a child, you lost your sisters to don’t forget that, you know, like people can forget that, like you had a loss as well. And so I am curious, how did the lack of communication around your loss, your mother’s lost the loss of your sisters out did that, especially in the teen years? Because that can be a really trying time for a lot of people. But how did that impact your school years?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 52:11
Yeah, I mean, gosh, probably in so many ways, including ways that I probably can’t even articulate or even understand myself. Because you really even now the stage of my life, I still process pieces of it. And I still have elements of memory that I kind of come back and look at again. And as time goes by, and you have new experiences and memories, you know, that also changes how you remember what you remember, it’s, it’s there’s like a layering on effect. So it’s, you know, you just keep evolving, I will say by the time I got to high school, my father was also a field engineer for several years in my life. So before my sister and brother came along later, sort of the, you know, afterwards, right much later, I think was nine when my sister was born, and then 15 When my brother was born. But there was a period where kinda reminds me of me leaving my home in the east to go back west, you know, where my father got a job as a field engineer. And so we put all of our stuff in storage, we were living in St. Louis, then that’s where I was originally born. And instead of just leaving my mom and I there, while he went off to all these job sites, he bought a travel trailer and we went with them from place to place, it was actually a really good experience for my mom, because it got her away from again, just getting away from a very dark, place and time. But what it meant for me is when you’re constantly moving, and sometimes you’d like I went to three different first grades and several different second grades, and there’s periods where my mom would train me or teach me, you know, while we were traveling, or because we were going to be someplace long enough to really be enrolled in school. So I would say one of the things that made that complicating as you learn early on, because I’d had lost that every time you start to make friends and then you’re going to move ouch, ouch, that doesn’t feel good. So you stop really trying to do that. And so it’s interesting that I’ve spent a career working one to one with people because most of my life up until, you know, really into my 30s I was not just an introvert but painfully shy. And when we would move to a new place I just stopped really even trying to connect and so I didn’t as a young person build a lot of those relationship skills. I don’t know I still to this day don’t have a lot of close friendships. I know a lot of people because of my work but so I think you know, it definitely shaped that and when you add in this sort of moving thing you know, it has made it has made me for up until my 30s resist getting really close to people because if you lose them, it doesn’t feel good. And it was until I got further along into my life that I realized that that’s not a fun way to live either. You know, granted if you don’t love no problem with grief, right? You don’t have it right so you know that you so when you start loving and caring about people You just have to accept that the grief goes with it. But once you’ve developed some some skill sets, that happens, and when you talk about even resilience, you know, I always say, I really couldn’t agree with you more, I think it’s, we do expect children to, like, somehow they don’t understand and everything’s gonna be okay. And the problem is because they don’t actually understand and their brains don’t have all the different inputs and knowledge bases, they can come to some pretty bizarre conclusions, which I did at times about, you know, my self worth, did I cause their death because So, uh, you know, I had a, I broken my sister’s crayon that day, and you know, and she was mad at me is, you know, so and then she went away Is it because I broke a crayon, there’s all these things that kind of happened with that. And then I would also say, if you’re in a really bad place, it’s kind of like resilience in parts of the developing world that are dealing with war, or extreme poverty, there’s only so far resilience will take you with, even within intentionality, if the environment that you’re in is constantly, you know, difficult abuse of, you know, not really supporting, you know, a full, rounded, healthy human being. So it has its limits. At some point, if you’re in a really bad space, you have to pull your your hands unless you can get out of that. And some people can, some people will live their whole lives in a situation where they can never be all that they could be just because of the nature of their situation. And so they can do the best they can do. But there is a limit to where any of this will take you as well.
Victoria Volk 56:23
You know, when I think of resilience to it, in terms of COVID, many, many people are having to kind of dig in that resilience well within them. I mean, this because we as we spoke briefly before we started recording, it seems like where is the end? You know, it’s like many people asking themselves, when is the end of this?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 56:46
And the gravy? Yep. Yeah. And you know, and there’s this tendency to, you know, because, throughout across the country, and across the world, people have responded to the situation, it’s bubbled up at different places at different times earlier, in the pandemic, it was really no big deal where I live. And now, you know, at this point, we are a year and three quarters into the pandemic. And my area is, you know, has one of the highest case positives in testing and we had the worst month last month, even though we’re you know, a while other areas, people are out, living fairly normally. So I think that’s the other thing is, is how important it is to approach all of this from a place of empathy, to realize that some people the whole time, as we talked about earlier, before, our conversation now had to get up every day, no matter what’s going on, and put on a mask and go do what they’d always done, you know what it’s like, I always think of the folks working in the grocery store every time even to this day, when I go in, I come out with my groceries, you know, I mean, who knew you’d go grocery shopping and have to have a remote space around you. And so I always say thank you to the people that have been there throughout all of this to make sure I could get ahead and let us you know, by the same token, there were others because of serious health issues, their own health issues continue. And my husband, I are still very, very isolated relative to everyone else we know because, you know, there’s some health issues that we have to be uber careful about. And we know that the virus could be probably fatal at this point. So, you know, that’s the thing I think is important is to realize whatever is going on in your world, you know, somebody else has a whole different, it’s like the invisible back of rocks, we all have an invisible bag of rocks we’re carrying around, we don’t know what’s in that. So to really approach it with empathy without knowing when people say or do things that seem opposite or irritating or don’t agree with our beliefs. It’s probably because they’re coming from actually a very similar place a fear of concern about well being. And you know, COVID put mortality front and center for everyone at all age ranges. It’s not just something off out there happening to other people, we know, oh, my gosh, this could be me. So what does that mean?
Victoria Volk 58:58
Just as there’s no hierarchy of grief, or a loss, a type of loss, there’s no hierarchy of fear either. You know, it’s like your fear is no worse than my fear. My fear is no worse than your fear. And I really, me personally, I, I honestly, I don’t watch a lot of the news and I don’t, I have made a conscious choice and effort to not worry about COVID Me, for me, personally, my body like I am not going to let myself succumb to that fear. Because the fear itself is making people sick too. And I just I don’t, I don’t show up. I can’t show up with you. I can’t show up in my work that I do with my clients and grief in their grief. If I’m sitting here, living just consumed consumed by fear, personal well being those little breaks we were talking about sitting in the sun, sitting outside in the darkness they The Night thanking the day thanking the son thanking, just giving thanks, right? To wake up, right and maybe building in some routine to help bring some normalcy as much normalcy as you can. Just to get through another day
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:00:18
Routines really help, I mean, we tend to think of routines as staid and boring, but they I mean, I think that’s one of the things again, that happens with any kind of loss or grief. And there’s just such a sense of loss, because our, just our loss of our way of life, loss of ordinary, the ordinary ability to look at a face and see their whole face, you know, is a loss for a lot of people, right? So I think, taking, you’re having some routine, and people will say, Well, I have a hard time sticking to a routine, there’s always a few things, it’s like, you know that for me, it was locking the doors at night. The other thing that’s No, no matter what is happening, I make a cup of tea in the morning. And so one of the ways I started getting better, was trying to add in that sort of grief break, you know, after I was having my cup of tea, or as I was had or turn that type of cup of tea into an experience, not just slugging down a quick cup of tea, you know, to really experience everything the sense what it looks like, in the glass, how the warmth feels in my hands, you know, sniffing it, you know, all of it, the sound of it going down my throat, and watching the steam go up and just, you know, disappear into the, you know, to the sky. So finding it, people can find a place where their routine still kind of works, where there’s something that they just almost always do. And then just start by building even a few minutes. And it sounds crazy, it doesn’t sound like it would do that much. But as you know, it just, it can make a huge difference in how the rest of your day goes.
Victoria Volk 1:01:43
I have a morning ritual, I get up about 5:45 and I meditate for about 20 minutes. And then I do my gratitude journal. And there’s some other things I do. I’ve set my pot coffee pot the night before. So it’s I grab my cup and I come down my my Zen Den, I call it and you know, it’s people might say, Well, nothing’s happening. I meditate for 10 minutes and nothing’s happening and the monkey doesn’t shut up. And I think with grief, the monkeys have like tambourine. So it’s like really loud. Yeah, there’s
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:02:14
More monkeys going nuts. Yeah,
Victoria Volk 1:02:16
Yeah, all the more reason to like, just sit in nature for a little bit. But I cannot tell you though, after I think I’m on day 39, you’re not going to notice anything profound, right? You might get like this intuitive hit or this intuition or the sense something like you need to do that day or reach out to somebody or whatever, you might get a thought that comes to you. But I think what happens, more net, like naturally unfolds is that you aren’t as reactive to people as you would have been before, or as you used to be. And I definitely feel that true for myself. Like I’m not as easily provoked. And I think, especially in times of COVID, which can happen very easily amongst family friends. Yeah, I think it’s so important to latch on to something that can help bring some I really, it sends a peace within yourself.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:03:16
And that that reactivity thing, I mean, that’s a really important place to think about because it is very easy to be reactive to just, and again, you’re often reacting out of fear, or some somebody pulled your trigger, whatever that trigger is. But it’s also that ability, that when you start to feel yourself going down that path, it gives you a greater ability to pull yourself back so that you don’t get stuck in that place. I know just for me and doing my tiny come back to your senses ritual, I do have a process where before I start that ritual, I take a moment to check in with my emotions, to do a quick little body scan, like what’s actually going on in my body, what’s feeling kind of cranky, or crinkly or not great. And then after I’m done with my ritual to just have a little check in and just say how am I feeling right now, that also does help bring that sense of momentum. I feel you get that feeling a little bit faster. Because if you can realize I actually do feel a little bit better, you know, and that little glimmer, I think kind of motivates you for the next time and the next time so it really, yeah, I think we’re, we’re on the same very much the same path.
Victoria Volk 1:04:20
Absolutely. So what gives you the most joy and hope for your future?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:04:25
And most joy and hope for my future? Well, quite a few things. I think for me, it’s wanting to feel like I can be helpful to other people. I feel like you know, we all have different things going on in our lives, but we also have something to give and that even though I’m many ways introverted, I love a lot of time and solitude. For me, finding some way to help others on their journey, whatever that is to help them be able to be more of what they have the potential to be to help them unlock their own potential anyway that I can really help people live more Fully, whatever that means to them. It’s not about my way that to them. That is what really gives me joy and hope for the future and feeling like, you know, you take what you learn, and you pass it forward in a meaningful way.
Victoria Volk 1:05:13
My art for my podcast is me on an island with a megaphone, right? Because you feel like you’re on an island have one by yourself, like, isolated, you know? Exactly. And no one’s listening to me. That’s why I need this megaphone. So you have a megaphone, and you have the world’s attention. What do you want to scream to the world about grief? What’s your message?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:05:33
Think about that for just a quick moment here. I think what I would say is that grief and joy coexist, you have to believe that and you have to know it, then that in the muck, no matter how deep your grief is, to look for and find that opening, where joy is still hiding in that moment, it’s entirely possible to be in the depths of grief. And yet to have to go back to you in the moment of sunshine on your patio, that moment of feeling, okay, feeling part of life and the world and knowing that you’re going to get through it. So I think I would just want people to really know that joy is always there, it doesn’t feel like it at times, but you can look for it, you can try to take that break, and create those little breaks in grief that let just a little bit of light in that. And again, whether we call it joy or peace, as you have been saying. That’s I just think so often people don’t believe that there are some Facebook groups that I you know, follow. And so often people will feel like, I will always be sad, I will always be in this place. And someone recently typed in everyone talks about their neck. No, I’ll never get better. Is that really true? I don’t know if I can go on living, if that’s the truth. Some people don’t. I would say the vast majority of people do, but there is an element. And it’s what you said earlier, Victoria, there is a degree of choice. And even though we might choose it in the moment, it seems really hard. And each day, it’s not easy. If you just can believe in your bones, that there, there is something better for you. And you just have to try to find a way to get a little break in that grief. So it can come in and find you and you can find it.
Victoria Volk 1:07:17
That was my story I over 30 years, right? I thought that was my story. I’m just going to feel like this for the rest of my life. This is This sucks. You know, this sucks. It sucks. You feel stuck, you’ve no you’re not living to your full potential. I felt like I was meant for more felt like this. This is just how it is I am destined to be in this space of stuckness and suckiness forever, like Graceville you know, I was stuck there. And but I knew in my bones that I was meant for more. But I knew I was not living up to my full fullest potential. And so it is really just not letting go of hope that there is something there for you to help you. For me. It was Grief Recovery. It changed my life. It’s led to this podcast, it’s led to Reiki, it’s opened so many doors for me. It’s why I’m talking to you today, literally, you know. So Chase, that feeling of feeling good. You want to feel good, find what makes you feel good. And it’s not a sturb. Like we say in grief recoveries short term energy relieving behaviors, it’s not alcohol, it’s not going to be the drugs, it’s not going to be the sex, it’s not going to be the man or the book or the fantasy world or whatever. It’s actually action action, moving yourself forward through it, working through it by taking action. That’s how you widen that gap. So I that was
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:08:47
Actually a key component in my book as well. But you know, there is while you can do while there are the hummingbird Grievers that Go Go, go go go. That’s a different that’s trying to outrun grief right at times. So I couldn’t agree more that it is, you know, finding that intentionality to take some action to create whatever that is, and it’s gonna be different for different people. I mean, that’s, you know, what, what may have worked for you is gonna be different for me different for someone else, but the action is really just sort of waiting. Like, I have to say one of my pet peeves is when people say, Well, time heals. Like the time is time. I know people who have who are still, you know, 30 years. That’s a long time. That’s it. You know, time passed, and you didn’t you know, you know, that’s why I say you know, we have this one and only heartbroken but still beautiful life. And so regardless of what we believe after this life, the only thing we really know for sure, and I just hate to see anybody not make the most of whatever it is that is meaningful for them. And the reason that they’re here and to feel that sense of purpose. So I’m so glad that you found something that created this moment of being here talking with each other and seeing your face smile
Victoria Volk 1:09:53
And you too lead to your work. I think our passions in life is all about often are often born out of our deepest sorrows.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:10:03
It’s very true in working in philanthropy, people don’t often realize how much philanthropy giving, whether that’s volunteering, giving financial gifts. Random Acts of Kindness often will come out of people’s love stories, things, you know, sadnesses things that were difficult, and they want to make something better. No, not only honor somebody like a lot of giving, it’s a way to try to make sense out of something that’s senseless, basically, you know, that you do I mean, you just you do find your way.
Victoria Volk 1:10:33
Yeah. There’s hope. Don’t lose hope. Absolutely. So where can people it first? Is there anything else you’d like to share?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:10:41
I think we covered a lot of ground here today. Victoria, I just want to say thank you so much for this conversation. I, I hope that your listeners find some things that we’ve talked about that will serve them in whatever they are trying to work their way through. And just know that there are people that care about them. It may not be obvious right now, but they’re, they’re out there.
Victoria Volk 1:11:02
Absolutely. And where can people reach you if they like to talk to you?
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:11:06
Well, I am at poetowl.com. And I will be setting up a special landing page for your listeners. So I will get you that link for your notes so that people can I like to create a special place. So when you’re going to a website you’ve never been to before you know, you can see a familiar the podcast cover and just and just know so it will be poet owl.com/grieving voices. And so I will get that set up for your listeners. It’ll have a link to my book and how you can get that it’ll have a link to the workshop that I offer for people trying to work find a way back into their lives after a loss. I think I’ve agreed for assessment. There are a few things but certainly my book, an easy link there of it.
Victoria Volk 1:11:52
And I’ll put all the links to the in the show notes as well. Sounds good. Well, thank you so much for your time today and sharing your wisdom. I very much appreciate it.
Kimberley Pittman-Schulz 1:12:02
I’ve enjoyed it. Yeah, I have enjoyed it. Take care.
Victoria Volk 1:12:06
You too. And remember when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love. From my heart to yours. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it because sharing is caring. And until next time, give and share compassion by being hurt with yours. And if you’re hurting know that what you’re feeling is normal and natural. Much love my friend
Childhood Grief, Grief Stories, Grieving Voices Guest, Grieving Voices Podcast, Parent Loss |
Lizzy Flavin | Never Fatherless
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Lizzy and I share a similar loss experience. So much so, we both experienced the death of a grandmother, father, then uncle – in the same order.
We have a conversation about how those losses have shaped and shown up in her life, from her perspective of being in her early 20’s. Also, being only ten years past the death of her father, she shares what’s helped her throughout her youth.
The conversation also turns to spirituality and faith. Lizzy shares grief that she feels around the separateness that exists within faith communities. And, she shares how she’s working to study and contribute to a greater conversation around the topic.
If you’re a teen, into your 20s, or a parent of a teen/youth, I encourage you to listen to Lizzy’s perspective of the loss of her father when she was 12, as well as the other losses she experienced before that and since that loss as well.
Mentions:
Connect with Lizzy:
Need help?
Suicide Prevention Lifeline to chat or call the Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255) or reach out to Victoria
Victoria Volk 00:00
Welcome to another episode of grieving voices. Today, my guest is Lizzy. And she reached out to me to be on the podcast, and we kind of have a similar story of loss. It was my grandmother, and my father and the uncle as well. And Lizzy shares that experience as well. So, she’s going to speak to it from her perspective as a 20 something, right? Correct. We’ll also dive into her faith and how that’s been shaped by those losses. Thank you for being here.
Lizzy Flavin 00:39
Yes, thank you, Victoria, for having me here. Lizzy, I’m 21 years old, and I grew up in Arizona. Yeah. And I’m really excited to be here today and get to talk with you.
Victoria Volk 00:48
When we spoke briefly, before we started to record you had mentioned that you lost your grandmother when you’re seven. Was that your first significant loss?
Lizzy Flavin 00:57
Yes, it was. I think at that point in my life, I think maybe I’d lost a pet or something. I maybe been to a funeral for someone I didn’t know. But it was the first time I really experienced someone that I knew and cared about being gone. And it was hard because I hadn’t had a very close relationship with her. She lived far away to another state, but I didn’t get to see her much while she I don’t think I ever got to visit her actually while she was sick. And so that was really hard for me not really getting to say goodbye even though I was so young and didn’t fully understand or have like the depth of relationship that I would have if she stayed alive later into my life. It was definitely hard to find out that she was gone without really having gotten to see her and say goodbye.
Victoria Volk 01:49
And then your your father was he, was, I know he passed away of cancer. Was it colon cancer?
Lizzy Flavin 01:57
Yes.
Victoria Volk 01:58
Same cancer as my dad had. I’m curious. How long had he known? Like when was he diagnosed?
Lizzy Flavin 02:05
Yeah, so my dad was diagnosed with colon cancer when I was 11. And he was sick for about 10 months. And at the beginning, at least from my perspective, it seemed like it was going to be a pretty quick surgery and then he was going to be done with it. It’s kind of how my parents had explained it to me. And I think even then, that was their understanding, but there just continued to be complications. And he continued to, you know, get better and worse over time, and then yeah, it was about 10 months later that he passed away.
Victoria Volk 02:38
First of all, my heart goes out to you I know what that loss is like I don’t know what it was like for you. So during that time, because I was a little bit younger my dad it was he was it was two years he had stage four when he was diagnosed and there was really nothing they could do but he lived for two more years and he passed away when I was eight so much of my childhood he was sick. What did you do you recall I mean and that’s still quite a little bit fresh for you because again, you’re 21 I’m much further out from my loss? What has that reef I hate to say the word journey because it’s so overused but what has that been like for you?
Lizzy Flavin 03:20
Um, It’s definitely been a long it’s just changed so much over the years I think initially when my dad passed away it was very hard and intense but I also think I been in my family talks about this a lot that we and I think it’s common with cancer that people kind of start grieving before the person’s even died and so like that process of kind of started maybe a few weeks before for me when I found out there wasn’t really anything what the doctors could do my dad was already in a pretty bad state where he couldn’t really communicate with us much and so that Yeah, there was a season where everything’s kind of blurry looking back honestly, but I do remember times even in that where I was confused about how okay I wasn’t certain moments and I didn’t know if that was right it felt like I should just always be upset but I think maybe the way we’ve been designed in some ways is to have that relief and have a little bit of being able to continue with life even when some time there’s a lot of back and forth with that of like times that I was upset that I didn’t think I should be in timezone I felt calmer than I thought I should be and especially as a child like I didn’t fully know how to process that but my family definitely helped a lot. And then like as I’ve grown past that, obviously like it gets better but it never really goes away and so there’s still times when it really hits me hard, and they don’t know necessarily how to communicate that to other people. But I do spend a lot of time in prayer in those times when it just feels like, you know, I’m not necessarily dealing with the death itself anymore in the same way that I was. But just the fact that I’ve spent my entire teenage years any part of my adult years that I’ve been without a father, and sometimes that really doesn’t feel fair. So, I think those are the moments that it hits me is when I see, oh, that’s a moment when my dad would have been there, and he’s not. And kind of, that’s something I still have to work through from time to time. And I think it gets less and less frequent as time goes on but it still happens.
Victoria Volk 05:45
Yeah, and it will continue. It’s not that I hate to say that, but it just it changes, it just changes over time. You know, you get married, you won’t be there. My family got me a beautiful little locket with my dad’s picture in it. And that’s what I wore for my jewelry. When I got married. It was incredibly special to me. So yeah, it just changes over time. You have kids, grandpa’s not there. The seats always gone at the table. Right? It sounds like to me that communication is actually a really important tool used actually used in your family to navigate that loss and share how you were feeling. What is that? Correct? mean? That’s the kind of sense I get that communication was really utilized during that?
Lizzy Flavin 06:34
Yeah, yes, I definitely agree with that. I think there were times, again, like, it’s always a mixture of like, there were times when I didn’t really feel like our family could communicate well and like be open with each other, just because of the different ways that we were all handling it. But there were also times when I was able to sit down with my mom or with my siblings, and just, yeah, share what we were feeling and know that other people were in the same boat. Even recently, like we’ve been able to have conversations, we try to celebrate or spend time together on certain anniversaries for my dad, like his birthday, the anniversary of the day he died, we’ll just get together and remember him and spend time together and sometimes talk about like where we’re at with it. And I think we probably talk less and less about I don’t know, it’s different every year. And the way it impacts all of us. It’s like continues to grow and change. But I think being able to grieve together and deal with that loss together has been really helpful and really a blessing that I know not everyone has.
Victoria Volk 07:43
Like I didn’t. So yeah, that is wonderful. Because I think when we’re able to communicate with how we’re feeling honestly and openly that brings healing, and then you’re healing as a unit as a family during that time to worry, even before your dad got sick. And even maybe when your grandmother passed, as your family always been very strong in faith.
Lizzy Flavin 08:07
Yes. So yeah, my we’ve always gone to church together as a family. I mean, we did growing up, of course now, I’m the youngest of four. So, all my siblings are adults, and they all kind of are still involved in different churches. But yeah, it’s always been an important part of our lives. It was definitely something that we talked about around like my grandmother’s death. And then something that, yeah, it’s really important to my parents, and they always taught us to like read our Bibles and brought God into important conversations. And that was really impactful to me, especially like thinking of my dad’s legacy, like continuing to walk in the faith that he helps me to establish
Victoria Volk 08:48
After he passed, how did that change? If at all?
Lizzy Flavin 08:51
It’s interesting, I guess, to me, like, trying to think through that, because I think when my dad was sick, there was a lot of conversations among my family, and especially with our friends about like, prayer for healing, which was definitely, yeah, it just brought up a lot of questions for me, when, you know, he wasn’t healed. And a lot of people we knew had, like so much confidence that he would be, but I remember, you know, my parents said, like, we trust God, or my mother actually talks about a conversation she had where someone asked her like, why don’t you or I think she was telling us about someone else actually, now that I think about it, but someone had said, like, why aren’t you trusting God to heal this person? And she’s a non trusting guide, whether he heals this person or not, and I think like that was her attitude toward my dad’s illness. And I’ve tried to take on that attitude to and it’s definitely a challenge sometimes even looking back like I said, and sometimes I just asked God like, Why Why can’t I have a dad in my life anymore? Like, this is really hard, but I do really believe Believe that he’s worked through that. And they think like, after losing my dad, that was something specifically that I had to work through. But I also, I knew that I really needed God, and that I wasn’t going to be able to deal with such a huge loss without my faith and without a relationship with God. Continuing and yeah, I really came to rely on God even more through my dad’s illness. And then after he passed away, and just looking to God, like I said, I look to him for emotional support, as I’m dealing with grief. And I look to him for, you know, with my questions and with Yeah, sometimes things that I would have looked to my dad for, because he was such an important source of like, someone I could ask questions to, and someone I could turn to you and I got anxious, and, you know, as you know, feel protected by in different situations. And so I’ve transferred A lot of it over to God. And it’s definitely different. Because God’s not like a physical person in my life. But it he’s also, yeah, I’ve just learned that, like God is ever present with me. And that’s something my dad never could have promised. And I think that’s really special. And it’s really helped grow my faith, even though it’s been difficult.
Victoria Volk 11:18
I’m interested in hearing your side or your perspective, because when I was a kid, I believe in granted, I was eight, no, even less than 12, you probably maybe know differently. But when I was eight, my dad passed away, went to the funeral is in the ground. And I thought, that’s what happens. When you die, you just go into the ground. And we did go to church, but granted those aids and big concepts, you can’t really grass, necessarily at that age. But I guess how did that when I’m thinking about my experience, and how that loss really took us out of the church, like, I blamed God, right? Like, as you’re taught, like, like you just said, and my mom had this firm belief, like, omega, he’ll be fine. They’ll do what they can. And when she realized that that’s not the case that he will die. She was devastated and crushed, and really didn’t know how to cope with that. So we fell out of the church. And that was the case for me until I was in my cell, I was probably till I was like, 23, my life was kind of a did a nosedive. Until back to, to life on faith again. So I can speak to that side of it, when you don’t have when you lose face. When you come back to it. I love that growing up that was still a part of your grieving process that that was something that was made valuable and important, and a part of healing. Because I know for a lot of people, when someone they love dies, they want someone to blame, right? You want and who is the easiest of ln is God, you know, because you’re supposed to heal people, you know. And so yeah, I struggled with a lot of those emotions, but I didn’t have the language, I didn’t have open communication like you did. And so I was a wonderful blessing that I just want to reflect back to you. Because I really think that whether you realize it now or not, that does and has an impact on the decisions that you make in your life and the choices you make. So, for anyone listening, it’s it’s there is no like linear path to losing your faith and finding your way back to it again. But often it’s, you know, it’s going to be take pen and scribble and doodle. And it’s that’s that’s what it looks like. It’s not a straight A to B point A to point B. So as you’ve been navigating this loss of your father, as it’s changed over time, and as you’ve gotten older, I know you had mentioned to that your uncle had passed away the same way. Is that correct?
Lizzy Flavin 14:09
Yeah, it was very similar. He actually he had a different form of cancer, but it was, yeah, it was very much felt like going back into losing my father in so many ways. Because he was my dad’s brother. He was definitely someone from my dad’s family had stayed very close to her family. After losing my dad. He was an important part of my grief process and had been, you know, really there for our immediate family when that happened, and of course, was also a big loss for him. And then he actually had cancer for about six years, and then passed away in 2019. And so going to visit him and seeing him in hospice care like my dad had been, he was in so my uncle was in home and my father had been enough hospice facility, me passed away. Yeah, just seen him in such a similar state was really kind of brought me back to that earlier loss. And then I think having lost my father and really knowing deeply what that meant, and saying goodbye to him for the last time, was really impactful and really challenging knowing that, like, it was only a matter of time. But I think also, again, having had that loss before and the blessing of a family who I’ve helped me continue our relationship, the Lord and leaning into I, I felt more prepared for another loss like that. And really, and also knowing, I think, even clear as an adult, like where, and just believing that my uncle would be in heaven with God and with my, with my father, because they knew, you know, they’re freaking God, that that’s what Jesus would do for them. And that was really encouraging to me in a really deep wave. And when it hurt that, yeah, that they weren’t just going into the ground. They had a continuation of life, it’s just I didn’t get to be a part of it for a while. Yeah, so I think definitely a challenge, but also something that I was prepared for. And I think in some ways, it’s like seeing someone suffer through illness can be so hard. But I think I’ve been very blessed, in some ways, by the fact that I’ve, you know, none, none of the people in my family that I’ve lost have been sudden, like, I’ve gotten to kind of prepare myself and say goodbye, and yeah, and then know where they’re going afterwards is really, really encouraging to me and has made such a big difference.
Victoria Volk 16:55
It’s really just kind of bizarre how similar stories are, yeah, it’s just really strange. My uncle wasn’t in my life. After my dad passed, he was his brother as well. But when I found out he had brain cancer, I went in, I knocked on his hospital door, not knowing if he would want to even see me or recognize me even because it had been almost 30 years to the day that my dad had passed. And it turned out to be one of the most healing experiences for me to revisit that relationship, to open up my heart to Him again, and when he had been absent. And yeah, I felt a connection to my dad that I had not felt in the 30 years prior. So I’m interested in learning what your experience has been, you know, there’s faith, and then there’s spirituality. I don’t necessarily view them exactly the same. I feel like for me, spirituality is almost more, there’s almost a deeper knowing a deeper connection or a deeper feeling is what it’s evolved for me. So, what role does spirituality play for you? And for your experience?
Lizzy Flavin 18:18
Yeah, that’s interesting. I don’t know.
Victoria Volk 18:20
Like, do you feel you know, when we talk about faith, we talk about God, right? spirituality is, it’s no our guardian angels. It’s like the people that like our guides, like people that are ever present. And all around us, you know, kind of watching over you, your guardian angels, things like that. I guess I it took me a long time to get to that probably only in the last five, six years, to be honest. It’s like faith came first. And then my spirituality came, I guess, where are you sit with that?
Lizzy Flavin 18:58
Yeah, that’s interesting. Um, I got a lot of conversations throughout my journey with loss about Yeah, like people sharing things like, oh, like your dad can see what’s happening or like, like, they’re still with you, in a way. I mean, I think I’m still at a point where that’s kind of confusing to me, like, I don’t know, and even thinking about guardian angels, like, I don’t know, like, you know, whether that’s a person who you’ve lost or someone different that God sent to help you like, I definitely think that’s possible that that’s a way that that exists, but it’s not necessarily something that I’ve, I haven’t quite gotten to the point you’re at. It sounds like because i think i think in some ways, I’m just afraid of being wrong that I’m going to like comfort myself with some idea and then find out later like, no, that’s just something that was in your head or like something sweet that people told you. Yeah, I guess. I don’t know yet. Like whether yeah, it’s just I guess, not something that I’ve really chosen to lean into yet. really focused on for myself.
Victoria Volk 20:02
You might be interested in listening to I’m trying to think what episode number it is. But it’s with Victoria Shaw. And she is my podcast. And she was on recently actually, the episode just went live, I think three or four episodes back, but she is a medium. And she’s also a licensed clinical therapist. But she’s a medium. And we talk a lot about like, just this, really tapping into our, our intuition and our inner knowing. And, but how it’s, it’s, it’s deeper than that it’s this spiritual guidance. So you might be interested in that episode. Again, like I said, like this is not something that I really leaned into myself until maybe five or six years ago. And it really wasn’t until that experience with my uncle, that just really had a profound experience in it for me when it comes to feeling a connection. Feeling that connection to my dad that I had not ever felt, you know. And it was almost like, there’s a thing to like, when I found out he had brain cancer, I could have easily just been like, isn’t been in my life for 30 years, why would I go see him? Why would I want to talk to him, right? But I felt a pull. Like I felt like I had to go see him. Like it was something I had to do. Call it synchronicity, call it serendipity call it spiritual guidance. But when I went there within 10 minutes, my cousin who I hadn’t even remembered meeting before, from Massachusetts, walked through the door. And so did his daughter, who I had not seen either since I was a kid. And so it was like this almost immediate reunion. And it was amazing. It was an amazing experience. So anyway, it’s something to maybe just open your heart to and see where where you’re led.
Lizzy Flavin 21:57
Yeah, if I can add something that came to mind as you were sharing?
Victoria Volk 22:01
Yeah
Lizzy Flavin 22:02
I do think well, like the right time to say, I think the closest I’ve come to that, that sort of experience and those things you’re describing it I would describe my experience with Yeah, sense of like some spiritual guidance and some presence with me would be, I would describe it as like the Holy Spirit’s work, being a Christian and like believing that God is like three persons and one of them is with us as especially like with believers as this spirit inside of us. And I think I’ve definitely received some comfort through that. And some guidance. I think the Holy Spirit has helped me come to like some of the conclusions I have in the piece that I have in regards to death guards to like people I love. And so yeah, I know, that’s not quite the same as what you’re describing. But I think there is some some, like spiritual guidance and some like spiritual presence. It’s so something so beyond the physical that’s really present with me. And again, even that is something that I want to be I don’t feel like I lean on the Holy Spirit, or, like, I want to grow in that even Yeah, so that’s, that’s what came to mind anyway.
Victoria Volk 23:20
No, I and I totally, I, I resonate with that, too. I do. I think for me, it was like, I think to like our while grief for me like, but he pretty much put a veil over my inner knowing, like I I don’t know, I’m asking, I’m actually interested in learning to from you. Do you feel like you’ve grown in a better understanding of who you are and of yourself through this? Or do you feel like you’ve you’re almost like moving further away from yourself, if that makes sense?
Lizzy Flavin 23:55
Yeah, that does make sense. I think the I think there’s probably some of each, there’s definitely been times and I feel kind of detached. And because i think i think grief impacts us so heavily that there’s times when we don’t feel like ourselves. And so that’s been a part of it. But I also i do think overall I have really gotten to know myself better through this and part of it is a certain level of independence that comes when you lose someone that integral to your life. You know, since my dad passed away, I can’t just go to him with my questions and assume that he’s right anymore. I have two processes myself, and I definitely like my mom helps me work through things and other people in my life. But I I think I’ve become a little more independent in the way that I think and the way that I make decisions through not having that person who in my life was really probably my main source of guidance and stability even in some ways and so I’ve really learned more what I think and what I believe and also grow And like, Okay, how do I take care of myself and like, walk through like these difficult seasons? And like walk through not having these people in my life? I think, yeah, it’s all been a journey of getting to know myself and getting to kind of work with myself in ways that I haven’t had to before with each loss that’s come,
Victoria Volk 25:22
Has anything else helped you along the way? Other like, has it just been your faith that you’ve leaned on? I don’t want to say just your faith, because that’s, I mean, it’s huge. But aside from faith, in your prayer life in your family, did you go to counseling? Or were you offered counseling or, you know, any other healing modalities that you’ve found helpful? Or that were a priority? in your life?
Lizzy Flavin 25:51
Initially, after my dad passed away, counseling or like support groups weren’t really, I think, on my family’s radar. So, we did have a lot of family that supported us, but it was definitely Yeah, it was, you know, they weren’t, we didn’t have like professionals really helping us work through it until I think about a year or two after my dad died, we joined a grief support group through Hospice of the valley. So me and my mom and sister, were part of that. And that was so helpful to me to just go to a group once a week and talk with people who had had similar losses, my sister and I were in like a team group. And so it was a lot of people our age who had lost parents, or other family members, close friends. And it was just so helpful to talk with people who understood and who had similar experiences and hear about bears and talk about ours. And just know like, even if we weren’t directly talking about our grief, like these are people who understood and didn’t feel like they had to walk on eggshells around us, but also didn’t, you know, weren’t going to be insensitive to our grief either. And then also our leaders who helped us walk through exercises to kind of process I agree, I think about different ways to heal and still remember to that was really helpful. And then later on, think I was about 14, when I started going to counseling, not specifically for grief, I was dealing with a lot of anxiety at the time and some different issues. And so, I walked into that my first experience with counseling was kind of difficult, I didn’t feel like I felt like it was just a lot of like work. And I didn’t know if it was really helping me. And then my next counselor was really helpful in processing, the other things I was dealing with, but also the loss of my father and how that was impacting me. Yeah, so those are some different tools that I really, really impacted me, I think finding a counselor or therapist who can really help you is so such a blessing and so incredible and helpful.
Victoria Volk 27:56
What did grief look like? on you, as a teenager? Like if someone would have looked at you could they have seen that you were a griever? Like, what, what how did it manifest in your life at that age?
Lizzy Flavin 28:09
As a teenager, there was yeah, I don’t know, how many people knew I started blogging at some point in my teen years, actually, about like grief and living without a father. And that was something that helped me kind of express what I was feeling and kind of worked as, like a public journal. For me, it wasn’t something a lot of people read. But it definitely was a way that I expressed my grief and, you know, post on social media, I think Or another way that I kind of express my grief and just let people know, because I think one of the hardest things for me, especially as a teen was like having to tell people because I was always nervous about their reactions, whether like it would just make them uncomfortable, or whether they’d be overly sympathetic or not sympathetic enough. And so I think like getting it out on social media and being like, like, no, this I don’t have to tell you in person, but also getting to share like what he had meant to me. I don’t really know if someone you know, could have looked at me and seen like grief, just in everyday life. But I think there were situations coming up to like all the time where we I know where the question would come up, or where yeah, just different things. What impacted me in a unique way because of my grief. And there’s always this question of like, do I invite people into this with me and like, share this or do I let people have very experienced and try to kind of hold back and deal with this on my own and so sometimes I would, I turn to my family with that and sometimes it was literally just me kind of taking some time aside to be like, Okay, this, you know, whether it’s Father’s Day or a conversation I have with a roommate about their father or their experience with loss, something that kind of brings back something that’s like So much bigger than where the conversation already was. And I have to either bring that up and face whatever reaction people might have. Or either like bottle that in or step aside and process it on my own.
Victoria Volk 30:15
I’ve learned there are two types of people in life, either internal processors or external processors, nexternal processors, they need to talk it out, they need to talk, talk, talk. And that’s where talk therapy can really help someone who’s an external processor, it’s like they have their awareness and their insights, as they’re talking. They need to talk in order to get those, feel those and have that awareness. But then there’s internal processors, and I’m guessing that you’re an internal processor like me, where we kind of need to go inside ourselves and be alone with our thoughts, the process and just the fact that you started with a blog, I’d actually journaled that’s when I really got into journaling is when I was like, when I was a kid. And I’ve been journaling ever since. But I grew up in the age of dial up internet. We didn’t have there wasn’t social media, there wasn’t really blogs. I didn’t even have internet at home. So you know, it was like at school, very different time that I grew up in. And so I think that’s a huge benefit to someone growing up today, children that name who’s a parent today actually have this huge broad network available to them, which can be good. And it can be bad, because in my line of work as a group recovery specialist, I want to share this with you too, because you said you know, you don’t know who necessarily to share it with is we don’t want to share with just anybody, right? Because they can say hurtful and harmful things that actually make us pull back and isolate even more, because we don’t feel safe to share. And so, we want to look for someone who really doesn’t have any skin in our game. No, I know your family’s a huge connection for you. And that’s, that’s great. But sometimes the relationship is no, not sometimes always. You can have like you and your siblings, your mom, you all experienced the same loss. But your experiences very differently. Your experience is very different, because your relationship is very different. And that was my experience, too. I was the youngest, my siblings were five and nine years older. So, our experiences were very different. So, you can have the same loss and very different experiences within a family unit. So, they might not be necessarily the best people to share with because they are perspective of that person might be very different from yours, because their experience was different. And so that comes to friends and everything, like someone that doesn’t have any skin in your game who you feel safe sharing, and someone who is safe, who has a heart with yours, like we say in grief recovery is someone who’s not going to criticize, analyze, or judge. And so someone who really can just your heart with yours, just listen. Because that’s all people really need to do. Just listen. And your story matters, your experience matters. And that’s why I started this podcast because whether you’re 21 or 41, you’ve had the same type of loss, our experiences are very different. And your perspective that you bring to my listeners matters. Because there might be some 21-year-old, 20 year old, a 15 year old who’s listening to you and hearing your story. And they resonate more with you because you’re closer to their age, I very much remember what 21 felt like I was lost, I was absolutely lost. My grief had me lost for decades. But it doesn’t have to be that way. We all but we all find our way. In our own time. Now, I’m to a place of a goddess. But then we might have another loss that just opens up that can of worms again. You know and for your uncle. That’s what that’s what that loss did my uncle, same thing. It’s like that’s when I realized I wasn’t okay. Like I still haven’t processed a lot. From all those other losses I had before I still had a lot of work to do. And that’s what that loss made me realize I’m not okay. And that’s what led me to grief recovery. And so, it’s an ongoing process. You’re going to have more losses in your life, that’s a guaranteed and because grief is cumulative, and it’s cumulatively negative. It just all stacks up, but so does the healing. The things that we participate in that help us to heal those wounds. Not to, and aid them not to like, to sugarcoat what’s going on. It’s being honest with ourselves. So we’re really feeling. I think that’s, I think we’re out of integrity the most when people ask, you know, how are you feeling, I’m fine, and you’re not fine. And you know, you’re not fine. Like you’re out of integrity with yourself. When you’re out of integrity with yourself, that doesn’t feel good. And so it’s this ongoing suffering that we caused ourselves just by not being honest with how we really feel. And it’s not being apologetic about it, like you don’t have to be sorry that you feel bad. Like, if a situation is too much, it’s walking away gracefully. And saying, I need this time for myself, I need to, we have, you’ll have instances that the rest of your life like that, with age comes wisdom. That’s all I can tell you. Things change, life changes, reach changes. Grief is grief, it just looks different over time, as time just passes, it doesn’t do it. Time doesn’t heal, it just passes. So, what is grief taught you so far?
Lizzy Flavin 36:06
I think we’ve kind of already touched on a lot of the things I was thinking about with what it’s taught me. But I think it’s this interesting mix of like independence and dependence that I’ve kind of learned through the process of like, I had a conversation with someone a few years ago, who had been through a similar loss. And I he said, like, I think everything that you missed from someone you’ve lost is something you have to especially like with losing a parent is something you have to like learn to do yourself and like be more independent. And I think in some ways, that’s true. But also, I think we really do need other people and other support to help us with those things. And times, because yeah, I just don’t think I could continue, or at least like be in the place I’m in, which is, I’m really blessed to be in without the support I’ve had from others, whether it’s, you know, my mom still being one, like stable parent figure in my life, or my brothers kind of stepping in and providing some of that, like sense of safety in certain situations, or helping me seven people throughout my family helping me financially, and to be able to go to college and have the resources I need to be the student that I want to be I really, like I’ve learned that there’s a lot that I can do on my own. And that i i do have the strength to walk through so much grief. And that’s but that’s all with some level of support. Like I can guess I guess, yeah, it’s taught me that, that I need people and also that I am strong as an individual. But then I like, I don’t know, if that makes sense.
Victoria Volk 37:55
Because yeah, it’s like you’re strong as an end of it. You don’t have to be strong for everybody and yourself, you can still like it’s not weak to ask for help. And that’s what I’m glad you brought that up, because that’s a good point to bring across, and how, if someone were to give advice or counsel like that, who has not really dug into their own grief, that’s where they can say something that could really send someone else into deep isolation. Because if you were to take that to heart, right, like, you’re just gonna have to do this on your own, like, you’re gonna have to learn all this stuff on your own, and you really internalize that you would have a really difficult time asking for help you think, well, I guess I’m just on my own. I guess this is how life is, this is what it’s like. Because that person is going to give you advice and their perspective based on their personal experience, right. So, if they have not had the support in their life, if they had not felt like they ask for the support in their life, that’s the perspective they’re bringing to your conversation in what you share. And that’s why I say it’s really important to choose wisely, who you communicate with your grief about. So, thank you for bringing that up. And what has led because you have a podcast, it’s called loving diversity podcast, and I was kind of I was poking around a little bit and it’s about inclusivity that word, inclusiveness? I think so. inclusiveness of, of faith has these experiences of grief and loss is that what shaped you into this mission or this passion for starting this podcast? And tell me a little bit about it?
Lizzy Flavin 39:42
Yeah, so I was actually inspired to well, I guess, going back even farther, and I think for a long time, I’ve been very aware of kind of and just like curious about honestly, the differences, just how the church seems to be kind of divided up into, you know, we have like, and it’s not, it’s not that anyone’s necessarily labeling themselves this way or doing this intentionally necessarily, but we tend to have kind of like, you know, churches that are, for a certain are tend to be filled with a certain demographic, racially or culturally or like economic status wise. And they that’s kind of how we get even as Christians within Christianity, we tend to gather based on other things that we have in common. And as I’ve read scripture and studied church history, I’ve noticed like that’s not how the church started, like the church churches, and like, the house churches that started in the first century, really broke a lot of the barriers that the rest of culture had around socio economic status, and race, and gender, and age and all those things. Like the church was a place that broke that in a unique way, early on, and now I feel like there’s so much division in the church, whether it’s based on different doctrines, or especially Yeah, like socioeconomic status, or race, or just preferences in worship, because that’s something that’s like been on my mind for a long time. And there’s some grief in that of like, why is the church to say like, why can’t we all be one like, group of Christians like God seems to have intended us to be and then in March of last year, with all the dots when I really became aware of issues with racism in America, and really allowed myself to start to process that and see like, Okay, how can like, first of all starting to understand the reality of the situation and grieve the losses that were happening in that time just for this if people you know, not people I knew, and then think about, you know, what’s my part in this? And how can I help to address this and like, help people respect one another and build a better culture, I really started thinking about the church again, quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. Where he said, essentially, that the church is one of them that are the most segregated are 11 o’clock on a Sunday morning, I think is what he said was the most segregated time in America. And that had really struck me hard. And anyway, as I was processing, I was thinking, Okay, how can I address this, like the church’s issues with division, and I started thinking about a podcast because I was like, I want to have conversations with other people. I don’t want to just talk about from my perspective, because that’s not the point. And I don’t even know that much. But what if I could welcome other people in to share their stories into to speak to their own experience, and to speak to what they’ve learned and share their experiences, feeling included from certain are included or excluded from certain church communities? And how could leadership or people around them have avoided that decision and help them feel like a part of something and like they were welcome, just as a part of God’s family rather than having to fit a certain pick fit into a certain category in order to be part of that community?
Victoria Volk 43:23
I love that. I love that idea. What are you studying in college?
Lizzy Flavin 43:27
Biblical studies
Victoria Volk 43:29
Awesome. Okay, well, that, yeah, that follow that passion, wherever it takes you that interest, that curiosity, curiosity is a big thing in life. And I think we don’t ever lose that. That’s something that we kind of just tend to put on the back burner is what makes me curious. Follow that. Follow it. I love that idea. If people want to reach out to you, and they want to learn more, how can they find you?
Lizzy Flavin 43:58
So, I’m on Instagram, you can find me at loving diversity podcast. I also, I don’t use this account as frequently as I used to. But my blog from my grief experience that I was using in high school is never fatherless. And I also have an Instagram account for that. So, if you’re interested in seeing some resources, it may become more active again. But if you want to read more about my story that’s there. And you can feel free to message me through either of those accounts.
Victoria Volk 44:29
Thank you so much for sharing your story, which deeply resonates with me, and I will stay connected with thank you for being here.
Lizzy Flavin 44:37
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s been great having this conversation.
Victoria Volk 44:41
Thank you for listening. And remember, when you unleash your heart, you unleash your life. Much love.
Childhood Grief, Educational, Grief, Grief Stories, Grief Tips, Grieving Voices Podcast |
Can You Recover From Grief?
SHOW NOTES SUMMARY:
Do you believe that you do not have any undelivered emotional communications?
Do you believe that you’ve made peace in a relationship with someone who’s died?
Discover, in today’s episode, the truth behind these questions, after you’ve heard some examples of what “undelivered communications” may look like in your day-to-day life. And, more importantly, why there’s hope.
We often neglect to share our hearts with others, for fear of sounding silly, making the other person upset, or for fear of rejection. We also neglect to tell the truth about ourselves if we don’t feel safe to do so as well. This is often the case within the context of dysfunctional relationships.
Learn today if you have some unfinished emotional business and also learn a bit about a new offering that is near and dear to my heart toward the end.
Mentioned in today’s episode:
Miranda Lambert | The House That Built Me
Helping Children with Loss
______
If you or anyone you know is struggling with grief due to any of the 40+ losses, there are free resources available HERE.
If you’d like to share your grieving voice on the show or want to share your thoughts about an episode, please send an email to [email protected].
Are you enjoying the podcast? Check out my bi-weekly newsletter, The Unleashed Letters.
______
WAYS TO SUPPORT THE SHOW:
CONNECT WITH VICTORIA (@theunleashedheart):
I’m pretty sure you’re probably thinking, heck no, because if you’re a longtime grieving like I was 30 plus years, you’re probably thinking there is no hope. I’m always going to feel this way. I’m always going to be struggling with this. And I’m here to tell you, there is hope. You see the truth is the key to recovery. And not long ago, a good friend of mine, Michelle shared a quote on her Instagram and I’d like to read it to you. When we first tried to open her eyes after sleep it hurts. Truth gives us the same pain when it illuminates our minds. This is not an excuse to hide from it. Very true. And I thought of grief. As I read that. I’m not sure if that was necessarily her intent of it. I don’t believe it was but it’s pretty easy for me to tie everything back to grief. And so that quote definitely made me think of grief. If you’re interested in learning more about my friend Michelle and her wise words, you can find her on Instagram @happymemichelle. I also wanna share an excerpt from the grief recovery handbook. The essence of recovery is contained in the premise of being totally honest about ourselves in relation to others. However, as humans, it is virtually impossible not to have impressions and opinions about others. So we must allow that our perception of others may limit or restrict our recovery. Being super critical of what others did or did not do usually leads to an inaccurate appraisal of our relationship with them. How’s that for a truth bomb for you? Right?
Grief Recovery is Possible
Whether you’re grieving someone or a relationship or aspects of a relationship you don’t like, even if you have strong resentment or even hate. I’m here to tell you that grief recovery is possible. Do you believe you do not have any undelivered emotional communications? If you do, I’m going to tell you right now, that’s likely false. What you may not consider is that we really struggle to share our inner thoughts with others. Don’t you agree with that? If my son, heaven forbid, he’s 15. His name is Xavier. If he were to die tomorrow, I know that I haven’t shared everything with him that I appreciate what’s hurt me or that I admire about him. For example, he’s amazing with young children. And he’s patient and he’s playful, and he devotes all his attention to those little ones. He also has respect for his elders, he’ll open doors, he says please, and thank you, and most of their lawn just because he is a very good kid. And he approaches every goal with determination. And you know what? He doesn’t know all of these things. Because I haven’t told him. When was the last time you shared communications like this with your child, parent, sister, spouse? When was the last time you shared your heart with someone? What they mean to you? Maybe even how they’ve hurt you?
Or how about when trust has been broken with a friend? Do they know? We often avoid the hard conversations to for fear of rocking the boat, ruffling feathers, or avoiding confrontation. So yes, I am 99.9% certain that as you’re listening to this, that you have undelivered emotional communications with friends or foes and that both positive and negative, you may have unfinished business. If there was a long-term illness and you’re a caregiver, you were likely preoccupied as the caregiver, and not one you cared for was the patient-focused on their illness and their treatment and their medication and focused on just getting better. You can’t speak to each other like you normally would. Or how about the instance of divorce? It isn’t until the sense of finality when the gunk hits us. What if it’s a negative relationship? And you have lots of hopes and dreams, you hope to mend fences, you may wait for an apology that you’ll never get. And doing that my friend keeps you in emotional jail. If it’s a dysfunctional home, you may have realized that you missed out on a normal, healthy childhood; what would have been normal. Understand that unfinished emotions attach themselves to future events.
My Childhood Experience
I’ll use my personal experience to illustrate how unfinished emotions attach themselves to future events. In my childhood, I had been molested. And because of that, I developed a lack of trust, a lack of self-worth. I sought out unhealthy relationships. I had been looking for someone to fill a need that I couldn’t give myself. I was filled with shame. I also abused alcohol. And I got myself into unsafe situations. And I took risks. And I didn’t care. There’s a song by Miranda Lambert called the house that built me. And it was a song that really spoke to me in my 20s into my 30s and really captured a lot of what I had been feeling in terms of grief and things like that. And part of the lyrics goes like this: I thought if I could touch this place or feel it, this brokenness inside me might start healing. Out here it’s like I’m someone else. I thought maybe I could find myself. If I could just come in, I swear I’ll leave; won’t take nothing but a memory from the house that built me. You leave home, you move on, and you do the best you can. I got lost in this old world and forgot who I am. The lyrics in that song encompass a lot of what I had been feeling for many years. And now that you likely realize that you have to unfinished business, emotional business within a relationship, or undelivered emotional communications. I will share that yes, you can recover from grief due to the examples I gave or too many other causes.
Evidence-Based Program
And now I’ll share a little bit of how the grief recovery method is the only evidence-based program for moving beyond impact processing grief. The only one. It’s not based on evidence. It’s evidence-based. Meaning it’s not based on testimonials. It’s actually based on actual data that had been conducted in a study I can’t University. So yes, this program works. If you do the work and continue to apply the tools and education you receive to every relationship that you have. That is emotionally incomplete. I have applied this method to relationships with people in my life living deceased, to alcohol, which by the way I’m nine months now alcohol-free. I’ve applied it to money, my inner child or that relationship I have to myself. This is the one method that I come back to over and over and over. It is why I cannot not talk about it. When I say it’s changed my life that is not Fufu talk. I look back on who I was on that plane to Austin, Texas in March 2019. And who I am now and it’s apples and oranges. The changes I’ve made in my life, the impact that this program has had on my heart, and the ripples it’s created to still to this day still. Just blow my mind. And you know what, there were unexpected results as well and changes because not everyone in your life will be comfortable with your growth. And sometimes we outgrow relationships. But know that even if that happens, even if the people that you are closest to, start fading to the background, as they start to recognize and see these changes that you go through. Know that you’ll have grief recovery to fall back on to process that relationship as well. This is an educational program, as much as it is a therapeutic one. Even though it’s not therapy, it’s just very therapeutic. But it’s tools that you will have in your back pocket for the rest of your life. And you know what they say about education? No one, no one can take your education away from you.
Do you believe me now? When I say that you can recover from grief? Do you recognize that you may have emotional undelivered communications and unfinished business with the relationship in your life? These are big questions if you’re honest, and you tell the truth to yourself, about what it is that is still emotionally incomplete for you. That’s when you start to realize where the healing needs to start where it needs to take place where you’ve got some work to do. And I’m laying out a program for you. It’s here, it’s right here. And it’s available to you, no matter where you are, no matter where you’re listening to this, I can work with you one on one online. And we can start as soon as you’re ready. It is an incredible time, right now. There’s a lot of change. There’s a lot of dis-ease in our lives. There’s a lot of unrest going on in the world. But I’ll tell you one thing if you start to dig into your heart, and you start to do this work, and you start to peel back the onion that’s filled with all of the gunk, and the layers of hurt. And all of that stuff. If you start to peel that back, bit by bit, you feel lighter and lighter and lighter. And that is how I came home on that plane.
There is Hope
Back in March of 2019. I came home so much lighter, and an emotional boulder had been lifted from my shoulders. Now, I’m not going to say that it’s going to be as dramatic or it’s going to feel as massive of a shift that I felt. Because grief is individual. And it’s unique to each and every one of us. But if you’ve listened to this podcast long enough, or if you’ve read my book or if you read my blog at all, you will know that I’ve had a lot of grief in my life. So if I can share that this works for me and that it can work for you. That’s my hope. That is hope. And so when I open this podcast today, I said that maybe this episode is more about hope. And I think it is. So I’m going to leave you with that today that there is hope. As you listen to this, as you’ve reflected on your life, the losses that you’ve endured, the pain, the suffering, the hurt, know that I’ve been there too, for many years, and it is often the things that we can’t say to people. And I’m getting emotional as I start to say this. But this method can change your life. Like it changed mine. Because the hard things that we can’t say to people that we feel like we can’t say that we don’t feel safe, sane. We don’t need to say them to the other person. We can utilize this program and the container that it is delivered in and with me as a facilitator to address what is emotionally incomplete and a safe, supported, step-by-step way.
I’ve been sharing about the helping children with Loss Program, which is another phenomenal program based on the grief recovery method, but it’s specifically for the adults in children’s lives. It is the program that I wish my mother would have known about. That I wish if she would have known about that, she would have utilized it because I don’t know that I would have suffered in my life. As much as I had the opportunity to process this grief, way back when that program, the helping children with Loss Program is prevention. That’s where this program that I’ve been talking about today is recovery. But there is actually a program for prevention. And that’s why I’m very passionate as well about that program.
P.S. I hope you feel the hope in my heart for you.
Childhood Grief, Educational, Grief, Grief Stories, Grief Tips, Mind/Body Wellness, Parent Loss |
Losing a parent is a complex experience. You may feel shock, anger or frustration, or a combination of all three. Other common experiences include feeling guilty if you weren’t there for their death or a sense of the current situation not feeling like a reality.
As a child and even when you become an adult, you expect to have your parents around for many years to come. You believe that they’re going to be there, watching over you, providing you with their help and support until you’re well into adulthood yourself. But that’s not how it always works out. Many people lose parents early as I did (age 8).
Therefore, in this post, we take a look at some of the things that you can do after you lose a parent (from an adult perspective) and why the experience is so complex.
Do What You Need To Do To Take Care Of Your Wellbeing
Grief can have a profound physiological effect on the body. That’s because it puts you into a state of shock and can often happen without any warning. Even if you have forewarning, there is nothing that finalizes a loss like that person’s death. Even though you may know it’s coming, the finality of it often doesn’t hit until after the loved one passes. You may feel as though the person is already gone, depending on the circumstances (such as in the case of terminal illness or dementia). However, again, it’s not until the loved one passes where the finality hits.
Before the passing of the loved one, there are plenty of distractions, too. Doctor visits, daily tasks of caregiving and support, and logistical and practical things people need to be taken care of while they’re alive. Before a loved one passes, these familiar patterns of behavior suddenly change with death, and this alone can put people into an emotional tailspin. Suddenly, the need to be needed is no longer there. For some, this may come as a huge relief. However, it’s still a change in a familiar pattern of behavior. For others, it’s the sudden awareness of time and this desire to fill that space of time starts to creep in, so what do many grievers do? They find a way to keep busy. And, far too often, that is the unhelpful advice others will give, too. “Just stay busy and, you’ll be fine – eventually.” So, so unhelpful to a griever.
Therefore it’s at times like these that you need to ensure that you’re looking after yourself better than you usually would. Getting enough sleep, for instance, is critical. If you struggle with sleep normally because of work, you may request bereavement leave or a change in your duties. I’ve had several podcast guests share in this sentiment, too, to take the necessary time off. You will not be as productive, anyway. When we break a leg, we go to the doctor and take the necessary time off from work to heal. Why do we not do this with our hearts? Gotchya there, didn’t I? It’s absolutely true! Our hearts need time to mend, just like any broken body part would. Granted, there is no timeline to grief, and it can feel like a luxury to have time off. For some people, that’s simply not an option. That being said, what are your options? You may need to get creative, but sometimes just changing how you work can benefit your emotional health significantly. Maybe grief will help you to realize that the environment in which you’re working is toxic and that it’s time to find something else more nurturing to your spirit.
Grief is a clarifier, and it awakens the dormancy of other hurts in our hearts. Use the awareness that it brings to make positive changes forward for your well-being.
Another area you’ll want to tend to is ensuring that you prioritize your nutrition and cooking, even if you don’t feel like eating. Healthy foods are one of the best ways to get on the road to recovery. Clearly, aim for moderation in all things, and avoid alcohol use as dependency on it long-term can harm you. As I’ve shared before, alcohol and food can easily become STERBS (short-term energy relieving behaviors) that we resort to when all we want is to feel better. These things don’t make us feel better after, though. They only pile on the guilt and shame.
Share Memories
Telling stories about the loved parent that you’ve lost can actually aid you in your bereavement. Talking to grandchildren about your parents’ lives, for instance, allows you to appreciate their life and stops you from bottling it all up.
I recall a story that broke my heart. This person was an adult whose parent had recently died. The person expressed how upset it made them when their child brought up the grandparent (this person’s parent) and how they would, essentially, shut the child down from talking about their beloved grandpa. This absolutely broke my heart.
Young children know how to grieve. Heck, they express every emotion there is, don’t they? However, as we age, it is the adults in our lives (and unhelpful and hurtful) messages in society that perpetuate this belief that we are to not share our feelings and are to grieve alone. Therefore, emotionally stifled children become emotionally stifled adults. And, these beliefs about how to grieve are then passed on to the next generation.
Do you see why this is important to understand and why I am so passionate about educating about grief? Our future generations rely on us getting this through our heads and doing better than the generation before us.
So please, as much as it hurts you, put your adult ego aside, and please allow children the time and space to express themselves. Have the conversations about how you miss your loved one – together. Cry – together. Grieve – together. You are teaching a valuable lesson that they will carry with them well into adulthood.
I was not given that opportunity, like so many children aren’t. As an adult, expressing yourself and sharing memories is the fastest (and healthiest) way to feeling better. And, it’s so important to choose your listening ears wisely, too.
Do Something To Remember Them
You can also pay your respects by creating a tribute memorial for a loved one. This could be anything, from planting their favorite flowers in your backyard to creating a home shrine. You could also explore financial options, such as donating to their favorite charity.
Take Time To Forgive
Before you roll your eyes, read on…💛
Some people are angry with their parents. So, emotionally, their death can be even more complex. You feel various emotions, some of which make you feel dreadful about yourself and who you are as a human being. Trust me; I get it.
Life doesn’t always provide us with answers to all our questions. But that’s okay – you can accept the mystery. Therefore, you can forgive your parents, even if you don’t understand why they acted in the way that they did at times.
The beautiful thing about grief recovery is it allows you to address those moments in time you can’t seem to let go of and forgive. Those times that pull you back in time, and you feel the pain and hurt all over again like it was yesterday. These moments are impacting you daily, whether you realize it or not. How you are coping (or not) impacts your life, whether you care to admit it or not.
Forgiveness isn’t for them; it’s for you. It’s not about condoning or forgetting; it’s about no longer swallowing the resentment, which is a poison you’re holding onto in your body.
Forgiveness is about emotional freedom from the pain that you will no longer let those things hurt you anymore.
Allow Comfort
Lastly, you’re allowed to let other people comfort you and take over some of the responsibilities of your life for a time. Completely isolating yourself doesn’t do much to help, and it would likely make matters worse.
This is so hard for so many people who were raised as people-pleasers. You know who you are, the ones who take care of everything without a word needing to be said. You’re the one who gives until they’re blue in the face and, deep down, resentful for it. You want to be cared for but simply were never taught how to be because, again, you maybe had to grow up fast as a child. There wasn’t any coddling or nurturing in your life, so you found your resilience, self-sufficiency, and resourcefulness instead. You likely had a lot of responsibility as a child, too.
You don’t know how to be cared for and, I get you. I do. So, rather than feeling the pressure of delegating, start with YOU. What does your heart need today? A walk in nature? A soak in the tub? Or a good belly laugh? Nurture your heart with the simple pleasures of life and feel gratitude in those moments. Then, as you go, assess what you can let go of, delegate, and ask for help.
If you have children and are a stay-at-home/work-at-home parent, you may want to put them into childcare for a while or see if you can do a child swap with a friend – it’s a win-win! Or you could temporarily hire household help to assist with the chores. Find some way to build in support.
We often don’t know what we need until someone throws it in our lap. So, if you’re reading this and know of someone on the grief struggle bus right now, steal some of these ideas or read this post on learning how to support a grieving friend or listen to the podcast where my guests share tips just like this!
